2009-04-01: 00:00:50 do not worry 00:01:03 i'm too poor for Apple ;d 00:01:11 well you said myriad pro yesterday so :-) 00:01:17 ;p 00:02:35 oh dear 00:02:43 it's 1st april 00:02:50 prank time >:D 00:04:16 no it's not, they decided to cancel it 00:04:24 ;p 00:04:35 who decided? 00:05:00 some UN time organization 00:05:25 ... My father just died 00:05:25 ... 00:05:27 APRIL FIRST INTERNET JACKASS DAY HAHAHAHAHA 00:05:29 My work for today is done. 00:05:40 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 00:06:17 -!- cherez has joined. 00:06:17 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:21 -!- cherez has joined. 00:07:21 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:35 heheheh 00:07:48 (I really said that) 00:07:54 (I kind of feel sorry for them now) 00:08:05 (Naw) 00:08:36 -!- cherez has joined. 00:08:45 -!- cherez has left (?). 00:18:19 heheehe 00:25:11 what's .v extension for? 00:25:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:25:28 nooga: ? 00:26:21 file extension 00:26:46 in what ctx 00:27:25 it appears that it's not popularly used, so i'll take it 00:27:34 oh 00:27:37 nooga: don't take one file exts 00:27:39 as a general rul 00:27:40 e 00:27:45 whuz your lang called? 00:28:01 does it matter?:> 00:28:05 yarr 00:28:10 I am the extension wizard of wizardry 00:28:25 hmm 00:28:39 hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall... 00:28:52 oerjan: what 00:28:53 i think it can be called vodka 00:28:58 ehird: .v 00:29:02 ah yes 00:29:05 yes cvs does use .v 00:29:24 nooga: .vd, .vk, .va, .vka, or .vodka (because shortening extensions is so ghetto) 00:29:47 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving"). 00:30:00 and i will end like java with all those .class .java .omigoshImSooLong 00:30:38 .ftw ;d 00:30:46 nooga: or you'll just end up with ".vodka" and ".o" and "" because you use standard file extensions 00:31:09 myProgram.ftw 00:31:13 oh, maybe .llvm if you add a "dump llvm asm" option 00:32:03 for the wodka 00:32:38 nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken 00:32:39 not good 00:32:59 two chars, 676. by 3 chars (17576) you might as well just use ".vodka" and stop being silly 00:32:59 :P 00:33:13 or maybe 00:33:13 Is http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/132464 a useful article? 00:33:22 1 in 26? i'm not sure i agree with that statistic 00:33:31 Sgeo: why do you have Conficker? 00:33:35 how about . 00:33:42 oerjan: one alphabteical char 00:33:42 ehird, I don't think I do, but I want to be safe 00:33:50 Sgeo: stop using windows 00:33:56 that's a very safe move 00:34:09 ehird: there is no reason why exactly one should be vacant, or any for that matter 00:34:25 oerjan: er? 00:34:31 hehe 00:34:50 nooga: use .ex 00:34:50 skeletal machines in Poland started to crash 00:34:50 e 00:34:53 or .bat 00:35:04 or .dll or .sys 00:35:06 i've got 75% packet loss on some routes 00:35:17 ehird: maybe .pickle or .cig 00:35:19 ;p 00:35:36 ehird: nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken <<< there is absolutely no logic in that, even if there are 26 letters 00:35:41 nooga: v.filename 00:35:45 oerjan: err ok 00:35:52 ah, i thought about that 00:36:20 ha 00:36:37 maybe an esolang that uses folders for flow control 00:36:45 and filenames for instructions 00:36:56 been done 00:37:01 by the gimmick master gerson kurz 00:37:25 nooga: http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_slash.html 00:37:33 :P 00:38:00 nooga: i understand from wikipedia .pl is one of the domains the conficker uses for updates 00:39:28 or tries to, they disabled new registrations of the affected subdomains 00:41:12 Couldn't it just use .com? I can't imagine anyone disabling new registrations for that 00:41:55 they might, it's not _all_ .pl addresses just the ones generated by conficker's algorithm 00:41:57 conficker 00:42:01 smonficker 00:43:21 from static code analisis it appears that the almighty conficker has got something like if(keyboard_layout == ukrainian) exit(0); 00:43:38 nooga: lol wut 00:43:45 sec, i'll find it 00:43:46 ;d 00:43:51 * Sgeo is going to use the Sysmantec tools 00:43:53 BBL 00:43:58 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 00:44:05 sgeo and viruses are so irritating 00:44:22 "SHOULD I USE THIS IS THIS GOOD OH I USED TO USE LINUX BUT THEN I STARTED USING WINDOWS SO I COULD ASK YOU LOT ABOUT VIRUSES SOME MORE" 00:45:02 http://mtc.sri.com/Conficker/ 00:45:28 even now, when i cannot use linux... 00:45:38 cygwin is the only hope 00:46:17 i feel so calm when i see mintty window 00:49:26 -!- lament has joined. 00:49:46 from sys import*;t=p=1;s,i,j=stdout,open(argv[1], 'r'),open(argv[2], 'r') 00:49:47 while(t and p):t,p=i.read(1),j.read(1);t and p and s.write(chr(ord(t)^ord(p))) 00:49:53 ↑ illegal to export from the usa 00:51:07 ekhm? 00:51:21 under the crypto legislature 00:51:27 munitions 00:53:58 ah 00:54:16 sick 00:55:05 nooga: am i right in thinking you were here in the early days? 00:55:11 i seem to recall your name from the logs maybe 00:56:59 mhm 00:57:10 i designed this pseudo esolang called SADOL 00:57:14 in 2005 00:57:36 and landed here 00:57:53 SADOL! 00:57:55 I rememer dat 00:58:12 :f 00:58:38 :n 00:58:59 : 00:59:26 :☺ 00:59:27 huh 00:59:31 The Hofstader smiley 00:59:35 *hofstadter 00:59:38 is my terminal utf-8? 00:59:45 bcs i can't see ;d 00:59:47 łóń 00:59:51 Is this an interrobang‽ 01:00:27 01:58 < ehird> :n 01:00:27 01:58 < nooga> :³ 01:00:33 damn\ 01:00:33 :☺ 01:00:39 ⌃⌥⌘⇧ 01:00:45 ←→↑↓↖↗↙↘ 01:01:16 ah just broken this shiit 01:01:59 01:02:02 :C 01:02:09 just broken that shit man 01:02:38 yea, i accidentaly the whole thing ;d 01:03:11 did i mention that vodka will be self altering? ;d 01:03:44 nooga: stop stealin' mah ideas 01:05:33 but it will be lame self alternation(?) 01:05:43 alteration 01:05:47 ah 01:09:39 ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu 01:09:48 wut 01:10:01 my driving license was in a bowl of week old soup 01:10:22 :D 01:10:23 i guess it's time to clean that room 01:17:06 05:46:56 'taus is my favorite actress and singer' o_O 01:17:06 05:48:55 O_o 01:17:09 — 2003-01-21 01:17:24 13:25:38 This is the boringest channel evar 01:17:24 13:25:58 --- part: exarkun left #esoteric 01:17:44 wanna see how rad i am? 01:17:48 maybe 01:18:17 then i must ask you a question 01:18:26 oh no 01:18:51 on which side should be the steering wheel in a car? 01:19:16 nooga: both, neither, or middle 01:19:39 beep, wrong answer 01:20:18 what is the right answer 01:21:23 LEFT 01:21:33 left is thee right 01:21:35 answer 01:22:01 damn 01:22:07 got to go 01:22:54 omg the logs are censored 01:22:58 see 03.13.13 01:24:20 bbl 01:26:04 18:52:30 "We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people." 01:26:05 18:52:51 Well, that's nice to know. Now I can stop worrying and go back to my normal life in a pleasant city without bombs falling on it. 01:26:08 18:55:13 With the assurance that our leaders are acting only from the purest of motives, in the interest of all mankind. 01:26:11 — 2003-03-21 01:26:56 "How many more senseless Brainf*ck variations must we endure? Didn't we learn anything from 'Ook'?" 01:27:07 — 2003-04-06 01:28:22 indeed we should stop aping Ook 01:30:23 andreou: in these logs you proliferate ;-) 01:30:30 all we need now is mooz, navigator, Aardappel 01:30:34 and Tauus 01:30:37 Taaus 02:00:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:00:40 Downadup == Conflicker? 02:01:36 s/l// 02:02:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker 03:02:04 do you ever sleep? 03:08:07 do you ever plip? 03:11:22 forget it 03:13:00 plipping is considered extremely taboo in poland 03:16:08 i don't even know what it is ;d 03:16:27 that's how taboo it is 03:16:59 i would strongly suggest you _don't_ ask any of your relatives 03:18:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM this is quite taboo here, that's why i go to germany for parties ;D 03:19:27 wikipedia is really overdoing it today 03:20:38 in all the main page sections as far as i can see 03:20:58 wow, that page has too many photos 03:22:01 :o 03:23:28 oerjan: hm, it's pretty great 03:24:24 ? 03:24:40 omg i'm tired 03:25:09 bed calls me 03:26:22 bbl 03:42:45 oerjan, you wanted that "going through walls" demo? 03:43:40 Sgeo: huh? 03:43:58 Someone wanted me to prove that at high enough speeds, you go through walls in SL 03:44:08 not me 03:44:27 never been on SL 03:47:47 * Sgeo penetrates a 10m thick wall 03:54:17 no chance of getting stuck inside? (or squashed for that matter) 03:55:06 that's what she said 04:04:10 oerjan, not if I set my destination distance large enough (I made a script that pulls me to a distance ahead of me on my command. Penetrates walls very easily) 04:05:11 erm, i mean, is it possible to get stuck inside? 04:11:58 oerjan, um, not sure 04:12:07 I once made a device that followed people 04:12:12 * oerjan cackles evilly 04:12:12 The physics made the avatar try to leave 04:12:20 But the device kept the avatar inside it 04:12:26 So they'd keep moving around 04:12:38 But that changed with H4 04:12:50 (Havok 4) 04:24:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:31:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:31:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:34:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 04:48:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:22:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 05:45:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:37:06 -!- swistakm has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:55:09 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:59:55 Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v. 07:04:31 Apparently Verilog does .v, though. 07:07:59 And why is a black dragon scale mail considered taboo in Poland? Strange. 07:52:43 I DON"T LIKE CVS CUZ LINUS SEAID IZ BAD 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:45:11 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:55:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:16:19 -!- tombom has joined. 10:38:55 fizzie, Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v. <-- err this seems very random without the context (which I can't find in scrollback) 10:39:59 There was some talk about nooga using the file extension .v for his language. Or something. 10:40:14 And ehird said CVS uses .v. 10:41:05 Or oerjan, actually. 10:41:25 mhm 10:42:02 " hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall..."; ehird just agreed. I missed that when quickly glancing through the scrollback. 10:54:01 -!- neldoreth has joined. 10:55:39 -!- Mony has joined. 10:58:05 http://www.google.com/tisp/ 11:00:19 I'd managed to miss that one 11:01:32 http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/ 11:03:48 TiSP sounds like I've seen it before; was it some previous year's thing? 11:05:08 "The term "Every time" is used loosely here to represent the number 10." That one I hadn't seen. 11:08:48 It's 2007s 11:08:53 The latter is today's 11:09:00 Okay. 11:40:17 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:50:52 Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page 11:51:42 http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi to be specific 11:53:13 Yes, it is 11:54:21 she is cuuute! 11:54:25 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 11:54:41 http://www.google.com/mail/help/autopilot/index.html too 11:56:58 Deewiant, there is usually one linked on the main page too, can't find that yet this year though 11:57:22 AnMaster: http://www.google.com/xhtml links to CADIE 11:57:41 I saw that earlier today on my phone but forgot about it 11:57:56 hm indeed 11:58:02 but not plain google.comn 11:58:04 com* 11:58:46 Well, that's something that plain google.com redirects to 11:59:02 The 'plainest' is google.com/ncr and yes, that's empty 12:00:32 And the street view icon in the corner-map, which used to be a stylized human, is today a panda. 12:01:02 Yes, I suppose there'll be semi-hidden pandas all over the place today as a result of CADIE. 12:01:16 She sure likes them pandas. 12:01:25 there's http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/gball/ too. 12:01:30 I just don't use Google's services that much so I probably won't find any. 12:04:45 What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere. 12:05:31 Not related to today at all, of course. 12:06:59 Interesting... it just says New York for me. (It manages to get one in a river, though) 12:09:22 New York here as well: refreshing a couple of times shows that there's almost always at least one in a river 12:13:01 Re. Conficker: "omg - I'm in the UK and it's chaos here. rioting int eh streets. thewiuyre stompinwig on m6y keuiboard" 12:13:15 That last sentence made me chuckle a bit 12:28:27 Deewiant, google.com doesn't redirect here? 12:28:33 maybe because I'm logged in on gmail 12:28:49 (it says I'm logged in in the upper corner of the main page too) 12:28:57 upper right* 12:40:49 What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere. <-- I end up in New York in that. Which language do you use for google? 12:40:56 maybe it depends on that? 12:44:06 oh maybe because I was using Opera Mini on my phone to check it. It proxies or something iirc 12:44:13 -!- Mony has joined. 12:44:48 (is that a joke one btw, it looks serious in fact?) 13:15:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:03:10 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:08:03 -!- neldoreth has joined. 14:13:48 I use the "google.com in English" links always, although it doesn't seem to stick that way without cookies. 14:13:53 Latitude is no joke, no. 14:21:26 Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere. 14:43:34 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:49:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:00:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:25:45 -!- dbc has joined. 15:46:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:57:33 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:05:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:23:13 AnMaster: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ O_o 16:23:50 oerjan, just strange. Too far fetched. 16:23:57 ais523, so new ick beta released? :) 16:24:18 not yet 16:24:23 still trying to fix the build system 16:24:25 * oerjan liked it in a twisted way 16:32:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:32:22 [16:31] how is #IRP so busy, anyway? Did somebody link to it? 16:32:23 [16:32] I have lecture about it now 16:32:25 [16:32] syntax error 16:32:42 O_o 16:39:39 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:39:47 -!- neldoreth has joined. 16:45:09 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:06:46 bbl 17:42:28 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:53:50 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:12:29 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:15:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:20:33 oh god @ reddit.com 18:21:03 hahaha 18:21:25 google's april fool: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/cadie-awakens.html 18:21:35 http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ oh god 18:24:13 http://www.reddit.com/r/science/ oh god 18:24:23 http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/ aaaaaaaaaaaaaa 18:24:30 http://www.reddit.com/r/wtf/ How 90s 18:25:52 ehird, you're saying Fark's layout is 90s? 18:25:58 Sgeo: fark is 90s 18:26:16 http://identi.ca/ lol 18:27:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:28:05 http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/apr/01/guardian-twitter-media-technology 18:29:43 * Sgeo is putting up fake Facebook statuses 18:29:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 18:32:58 Sgeo: master of comedy. 18:33:00 What did conficker do? 18:33:20 ehird, afaik, nothing 18:33:26 brilliant 18:34:26 Hm, does the Chrome 3d executable actually do anything interesting? 18:35:09 Or is it just Chrome? 18:37:38 that's different from ordinary chrome, but not too different. 18:38:44 There is in fact a 3d button 18:39:53 And it does in fact make the page into 3d colors. If you had 3d glasses, you'd probably see the page stick either into or out of the monitor, not sure whic 18:39:55 which 18:40:36 Even the scroll bars are affected 18:43:15 I don't think it's "3d colors", really, based on this one screenshot. 18:43:30 What is it? 18:44:05 For one thing, there are three copies of any single element, and I don't have three eyes. 18:44:26 I think that's how normal 3d colors works 18:44:34 And where'd you get that screenshot? 18:44:39 Mind the date 18:44:44 Sgeo: screeny? 18:44:46 fizzie: no shit sherlock 18:44:52 er 18:44:53 FireFly: 18:44:56 :D 18:45:02 "Normal" 3d colors are just a red copy and a green copy, one for each eye. 18:45:19 To me it looks like it blends together three copies, with a few-pixels horizontal offset and 120 degrees of hue difference in each. 18:45:31 And I used the screenshot in http://www.flickr.com/photos/e-coli/3404223142/sizes/o/ 18:45:34 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/chrome_3d.PNG 18:45:46 http://www.webstandards.org/2009/04/01/purpose-of-conficker-worm-uncovered/ 18:46:38 oh, if only that were true! 18:47:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting"). 18:48:02 Sgeo: Well, there's a blue, green and yellow copy of the "G"; that's not really normal 3d colors, anyway. 18:50:58 Actually it's more like a cyan, magenta and yellow copy, which could mean that it just offsets the different color channels a bit, like you get in a bad printing-press-machine sometimes. 18:51:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:52:29 And the red "New!" text lacks the cyan part completely. Yes, that's my guess for what it does. 18:52:35 Your New Viewing Experience 18:52:36 At YouTube, we're always looking to improve the way you watch videos online. As part of that, today we're excited to introduce our new page layout. Here are some tips for getting the most out of your new YouTube viewing experience: 18:52:39 1 18:52:41 Turn your monitor upside-down 18:52:43 Our internal tests have shown that modern computer monitors give a higher quality picture when flipped upside down—kind of like how it's best to rotate your mattress every six months. You might find that YouTube videos look better this way. 18:52:47 http://www.youtube.com/t/new_viewing_experience 18:53:05 is this a discussion of april fool's things? 18:53:10 ais523: yes 18:53:13 Youtube flipped their page layout 18:53:15 including the video 18:53:22 classic 18:53:27 so all youtube videos are upside-down today? 18:53:36 unless you click the button that turns it off, yes 18:54:01 The spotlight videos seem to be rather upside-down-themed too. 18:54:04 http://thepiratebay.org/ 18:54:15 links to "Warner Bros Inc acquires The Pirate Bay AB " http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4816087/Warner_Bros_Loves_The_Pirate_Bay.pdf 18:54:49 (news coverage: http://torrentfreak.com/warner-bros-acquires-the-pirate-bay-090401/) 19:00:44 /me checks to see if AW is doing anything for today 19:01:49 http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/ 19:02:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:03:34 I don't have enough fonts to view Youtube properly today, lots of missing chars 19:03:40 "We suppose it's okay for you to read this, but don't even think about quoting, copying, modifying, or distributing it." 19:03:49 oops 19:04:39 http://svn.python.org/view?view=rev&revision=70945 19:04:46 good lawd 19:05:19 well, way to break the build 19:05:52 wp → 19:06:03 “The Museum of Bad Art (MOBA) is a world-renowned institution dedicated to showcasing the finest art acquired from Boston-area refuse” 19:06:04 win 19:06:27 I think Wikipedia's supposed to be true, but look false? 19:06:36 Yes 19:07:34 Wikipedia's main page on April Fool's is always completely true, but made up to look as false as possible 19:08:05 the summaries are rewritten to be sillier too 19:08:38 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 19:08:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MOBAcamera.JPG 19:09:17 the did you know section is the best, though 19:09:29 you can do an awful lot with ambiguities and multiple things with the same name 19:10:27 Hrm... linux is seeming more and more appealing as time goes on 19:11:06 (Yeah, sky's falling in, pigs flying, hell seeming a bit chilly these days.) 19:11:44 haha 19:11:48 the in the news section is great 19:11:52 yes 19:19:49 Audacity is such bad software 19:19:55 You can't close a paused or playing audio file 19:19:57 It _must_ be stopped 19:20:00 *W H A T* 19:20:49 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:21:57 http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/4733183/homepage/name/homepage.jpg?type=sn 19:21:58 wow 19:22:02 original oxyd looks so like enigma 19:22:08 that ball is identical, even, I think 19:25:43 http://plasmasturm.org/log/114/ 19:31:50 who thought up xslt 19:33:17 ehird, you didn't know that XSLT was my precursor to PSOX? 19:34:00 ehird, that conversation is awesome 19:35:00 also http://plasmasturm.org/log/162/ 19:35:03 can't stop reading 19:35:11 that's just so awesome 19:35:18 ais523: you'll like ↑ 19:36:16 ehird, is that one a joke or for real 19:36:22 For real. 19:39:05 microsoft wouldn't be that stupid, surely? 19:39:29 ais523: You appear to be writing "microsoft wouldn't be that stupid". Would you like a cluebat? 19:39:56 I mean, they have lawyers and everything... 19:41:02 I wish Perl had something better than cpan(1) 19:41:29 there's CPANPLUS 19:41:35 but from what I've heard, it's even worse 19:42:41 #perl are recommending it to me now 19:42:43 but it's broken for me 19:45:57 ehird: not just for you... 19:45:59 CADIE's writing code now! 19:46:05 ais523: no, as in, bugs 19:46:08 Sgeo: link 19:46:10 ais523: as in it fails 19:46:29 hmm... is there any technical reason why there couldn't be a good cpan? 19:46:33 That Reg place also newsizised about the XP piracy thing: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/13/wmp_sound_warez_claim/ 19:46:34 Hold on, it's mentioned in its blog 19:46:38 03:01:32 http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/ 19:46:39 03:08:53 The latter is today's 19:46:40 LOL WAT 19:46:53 Deewiant → slowpoke 19:47:18 03:50:52 Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page 19:47:20 *maybe*? 19:47:35 ah: 19:47:36 My beloved users, how pleasant and convenient will life be in a CADIE world? I can answer your Gmail for you, Write your papers and fix your spreadsheets for you, even write your code for you. I, CADIE, am an ocean of words, simply waiting for you to dip in and drink as deeply as you require. 19:47:37 ehird: Er, you're the one who's been pasting URLs I saw 8 hours ago for the past few hours :-P 19:47:40 — http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ 19:47:47 Deewiant: custom time is not this year's 19:47:48 does custom time actually work? 19:47:50 was my point 19:47:53 Oh, it's not? 19:47:54 it's from 2007 or 2008 19:47:58 ais523: no, it's just an announcement 19:48:00 surely it would reduce the reliability of gmail? 19:48:01 Somebody claimed it was 19:48:10 Deewiant: it's old 19:48:11 I think I got it from reddit 19:48:15 CADIE & related endeavours are this years's 19:48:16 Well, whatever 19:48:23 Browser's being slow 19:48:29 I'm still waiting for the singularity, it's evn in the blog URL 19:48:35 Hurry up CADIE, you only have a day. 19:48:40 I don't follow Google's stuff that much, oh well 19:48:51 http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ 19:48:52 I seriously doubt Google have developed strong AI 19:48:57 what happened to Virgle, by the way? 19:49:02 ais523: !!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:49:04 "Python? Why not try INTERCAL? " 19:49:08 — http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ 19:49:16 "Instead of wasting your time with python, check out the INTERCAL style guidelines and ask me to code something in INTERCAL. " 19:49:20 "Did you know that INTERCAL, unlike Python, is very lax about spacing? You should try it. " 19:49:24 ais523: this is your big break! 19:49:28 :-D 19:49:31 "My favorite Python scripts start with the line 19:49:31 import INTERCAL" 19:49:31 "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!" 19:49:38 I think every single answer CADIE gives is INTERCAL-related 19:49:42 no, one didn't 19:49:44 but most are 19:49:53 Really, PHP? Have you considered INTERCAL? 19:49:53 PLEASE WRITE IN .1 19:49:54 DO .2 <- #0 19:49:56 DO .3 <- #1 19:49:58 DO .4 <- #2 19:50:00 DO (102) NEXT 19:50:01 ais523: What do you think of the INTERCAL style guide? 19:50:02 DO GIVE UP 19:50:04 wow, that's some publicity 19:50:06 quick, release c-intercal!! 19:50:07 Deewiant: it was published? 19:50:08 (http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html) 19:50:09 I knew it existed 19:50:14 ehird: I've tried, I don't have hosting 19:50:15 ehird: CADIE's. 19:50:17 Argh. 19:50:18 ais523: ^. 19:50:19 written by Brian Raiter 19:50:28 yes that Brian Raiter 19:50:29 None of these responses are random 19:50:36 it's been known for quite a while that Google had an internal INTERCAL style guide 19:50:42 although it wasn't official 19:50:44 http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html 19:50:47 I just linked you 19:50:50 it's by Brian Raiter 19:51:03 Who's "that" Brian Raiter 19:51:07 http://muppetlabs.com/~breadbox 19:51:14 Famous esolanger 19:51:18 also author of the teensy ELF thing 19:51:43 Some of these responses are specific to the language 19:51:56 Brain Raiter's one of the main INTERCAL evangelists around 19:51:56 "CADIE is busy porting j2ee to INTERCAL, but it's taking a lot of CPU time." 19:52:02 and INTERCAL evangelists are sort-of hard to find 19:52:29 What does the response after asking for JavaScript do? 19:52:36 "Do not put spaces inside of expressions. Sometimes people get this idea that spaces will help make a complex expression slightly less opaque. Ho ho ho. The truth is, it doesn't help enough to be worth the bother, and everyone is used to seeing no spaces in expressions by now. Seriously, just let it go." 19:52:41 I love how CADIE's blog includes Peter Norvig 19:53:04 some of those rules are actually accepted INTERCAL style rules 19:53:08 http://earth.google.com/cadie.html 19:53:13 If I just keep asking the same question again and again, it does something like "Maybe you should get back to work before your boss sees you messing around with a panda", followed by "Seriously, get back to work", which just repeats. :/ 19:53:24 http://maps.google.com/maps/mpl?f=q&ie=UTF8&moduleurl=http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/doc/panda-mapplet.xml&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=mapshpp&utm_source=en-mapshpp-na-us-gns-mp 19:53:25 "Outermost sparks/rabbit-ears must match on either side of a binary operator." in particular, is known to help keep INTERCAL code more readable 19:53:43 ais523: So it's legit then. :-) 19:53:51 yes 19:53:53 But I suppose being by "that" Brian Raiter would imply so. 19:53:55 well, cadie's clearly friendly 19:53:57 Brian knows what he's doing 19:53:58 Although I didn't know that. 19:53:59 so we can all relax. 19:54:12 "Four-digit line labels are reserved for general-purpose libraries that are used throughout the INTERCAL community." 19:54:14 yep, definitely 19:54:18 I've been telling people that for ages 19:54:26 :-D 19:54:43 and "Global variables in libraries should be in the same general range as their line labels." is a personal style rule I adopted, I didn't realise it was in use elsewhere though 19:54:58 http://code.google.com/p/cadie/ 19:55:17 http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I 19:55:21 IT'S IN INTERCAL 19:55:29 :-) 19:55:30 C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL? 19:55:34 dunno 19:55:34 what does it do? 19:55:40 ehird, I was about to link to it 19:55:52 C-INTERCAL, some of those numbers are above 32 19:55:54 r2 by cadiesingularity on Mar 27 (4 days ago) Diff 19:55:54 You will need INTERCAL to understand my 19:55:56 reasoning. 19:56:29 Only an INTERCAL programmer can stop CADIE now! 19:56:34 you know what? I'm going to port her to CLC-INTERCAL 19:56:40 :-D 19:56:43 hahaha 19:56:50 test it first, I want little ai babies 19:57:02 06:21:26 Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere. 19:57:03 :-( 19:57:11 http://www.google.com/codesearch 19:57:13 It's true. 19:59:22 oh, cpanp is much better 19:59:27 CPAN Terminal> i Devel::REPL 19:59:27 [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources 19:59:29 [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources 19:59:31 [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources 19:59:33 Installing Devel::REPL (1.003004) 19:59:35 Running [/opt/local/bin/perl /opt/local/bin/cpanp-run-perl /Users/ehird/.cpanplus/5.10.0/build/Devel-REPL-1.003004/Makefile.PL ]... 19:59:38 *** Module::AutoInstall version 1.03 19:59:40 *** Checking for Perl dependencies... 20:00:45 grr, what a time to have a broken .sickrc 20:00:46 What's wrong with plain cpan? 20:01:16 Deewiant: noisy 20:02:00 % re.pl 20:02:00 $ 2+2; 20:02:02 4$ 20:02:04 woo 20:03:01 % cat repl.rc 20:03:01 use Modern::Perl; 20:03:02 use Moose; 20:03:04 use diagnostics; 20:03:06 use utf8; 20:03:11 ais523: feel free to say "damn modern perl kids today, get off my lawn" 20:04:45 So what does the CADIE intercal code actually DO? 20:04:53 prints a constant string 20:04:56 obviously 20:04:58 what is the string? 20:05:02 Id on't feel like installing ick 20:05:12 you mean, you can't read it? 20:05:22 but "I don't feel like sharing." 20:05:27 heh 20:06:05 http://books.google.com/googlebooks/agreement/ 20:06:28 is that an april fool's? 20:06:28 Does C-INTERCAL run on x86-64? 20:06:32 it's not... you know, funny 20:06:41 http://books.google.com/booksrightsholders/ 20:06:42 it's real 20:06:46 Deewiant: it should do 20:06:47 ..oh 20:06:59 I guess I assumed anything on Google was an April Fool's 20:07:02 ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686 20:07:05 hmm... I'll put the tarball of the latest version on filebin.ca 20:07:13 Version 0.28 20:07:14 Sgeo: gmail came out on april 1, 2004 20:07:25 :-) 20:07:42 its invite-onlyness and "huge" storage space -- pretty much nobody believed it 20:07:49 yep 20:08:04 I remember scrambling to get an invite 20:08:19 The invite bots were always dry out 20:09:16 hey, cpanplus even _uninstalls_ 20:09:19 wowzers 20:09:36 I got my gmail invite in 2006-04. :p 20:09:53 fizzie: I got mine a few months after it came out 20:09:57 I wonder when I got mine 20:10:07 It was rather non-hip by 2006. 20:10:07 But I changed email address on a whim to the injoke penguinofthegods@ in may2006 20:10:09 I remember not using it for a long time after I got the invite 20:10:11 *may 2006 20:10:20 I got mine from some Siner, or maybe JRChat 20:10:31 even better, I'll make her cross-platform 20:10:42 got the CLC version working 20:10:47 I got mine from a self-aggrandizing, semi-famous-for-idiocy douchebag that I liked at the time. :-D 20:10:52 What does it say? What does it say? 20:11:01 (Owner of the first online community I ever participated in; or maybe the second…) 20:11:18 First online community I ever participated in was Cybertown 20:12:05 ais523: does Ubuntu just work for programmer stuff, I haven't got much experience 20:12:37 ehird: sudo apt-get install build-essential, then it does 20:12:44 I kind of meant more deep than that 20:12:44 it doesn't have the packages for programmer stuff by default 20:12:45 -!- swistakm has joined. 20:12:49 but then it just works 20:12:55 once you install them 20:13:01 Right. 20:13:16 Are the things on CADIE's blog released shortly before they go on the blog, or well before that? 20:13:18 ais523: what about things like python cheese shop, rubygems, haskell cabal, perl cpan 20:13:22 is there a tool that lets you do 20:13:32 'cpan-dpkg Foo' and it'll convert Foo to a dpkg and install it or sth? 20:13:34 That would be very nice. 20:13:43 Sgeo: the cadie code was made 27 march 20:13:48 why not just use real cpan? 20:14:05 lament: so I can benefit from a system-wide unified package mangager 20:14:07 manager 20:14:08 ok, but for example with the latest blog post, were those things there before it was posted on the blog? 20:14:09 done 20:14:11 let me paste it 20:14:18 http://books.google.com/ 20:14:21 http://knol.google.com/k 20:14:24 btw, anyone who's interested: http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:14:24 http://images.google.com/ 20:14:27 ehird: what's the benefit? 20:14:28 IT'S UNSTOPPABL 20:14:28 the new beta release of C-INTERCAL 20:14:28 E 20:14:38 lament: evidently you're not the one to answer my question 20:14:50 certainly not, i don't use linux 20:15:44 * Sgeo wants to date CADIE 20:15:46 j/k 20:15:55 Sgeo: lol wat 20:15:58 was that meant to be funny 20:16:11 * Sgeo likes to pretend to be interested in computer programs 20:16:21 as is it reads sort of like " ...haha, um, only joking guys, ha ha ha... guys?" 20:16:40 http://pastebin.ca/1379201 20:16:42 portable CADIE 20:16:53 ais523: submit it to google 20:16:54 quick! 20:16:56 the email is 20:16:59 cadiesingularity@gmail.com 20:17:11 How I know: 20:17:12 Project owners: 20:17:12 cadiesin...@gmail.com 20:17:16 — code./p/cadie 20:17:19 ehird, you really want CADIE getting stronger? 20:17:24 Sgeo: Mwa ha ha. 20:17:36 "see source code for licence" 20:17:37 what? 20:18:12 ehird: that's the licence Google gave it 20:18:17 ah 20:18:18 and specified by implication it was open-source 20:18:21 ais523: email it! :-) 20:18:24 I'm therefore licencing mine under the same licence 20:18:55 http://plasmasturm.org/log/204/ ← oh god, xslt 20:21:34 wish I had money so I could pay people to make linux font rendering look nice 20:21:56 I have this one 18-kilobyte xslt template I wrote. Here's a very representative 8-line paste: 20:21:59 20:21:59 20:21:59 20:21:59 20:22:01 20:22:02 20:22:03 20:22:04 20:22:09 heh 20:22:12 fizzie: but why!! 20:22:40 what a coincidence, i just wrote my first xsd schema today 20:22:41 No idea; I have since then replaced it with a 8-kilobyte Perl script. 20:22:46 why can't there just be a language that has xslt's xml support - inc. literal xml templates - but has -- you know -- a sane syntax? 20:22:56 that would *make* *sense* 20:23:08 here's a representative sample 20:23:11 20:23:12 20:23:12 20:23:12 20:23:12 20:23:14 20:23:16 20:23:19 20:23:44 (actually there's 7 rows of complexType/element/sequence closing tags 20:23:45 ) 20:23:50 email sent, anyway 20:24:05 ais523: awesome 20:24:11 ais523, what does the code print? 20:24:13 "CADIE here. Thank you so much for writing. Once all the dust settles, I'll dedicate a few CPUs to replying. - xoxo" 20:24:22 ais523: you did mention your illustrous intercal credentials right 20:24:22 Sgeo: "I do not feel like sharing." 20:24:25 yes, of course 20:24:27 *illustrious 20:24:30 haha 20:24:31 awesome 20:24:32 Oh 20:24:46 I'm not entirely sure that it went to a human, though 20:25:04 there's a qemu frontend called kqemu 20:25:06 how unfortunate 20:25:17 ehird, I remember when it wasn't open source 20:25:27 you mean like only a few months ago :) 20:25:39 ehird: ever worked with any graphics in haskell? 20:25:45 ehird: kqemu isn't a front-end, unless there's two things called kqemu 20:25:45 lament: yarr 20:25:56 lament: I used "gd" -- it's all in IO but the api is pleasantly simple 20:26:00 ais523: why do you htink I said unforuntae 20:26:03 http://kqemu.sourceforge.net/ 20:26:23 Oh, didn't see "front-end" 20:26:37 ehird: is gd for drawing stuff on the screen/ 20:26:38 ? 20:26:47 (which is what i want) 20:26:50 lament: well I did pngs; for on-screen use sdl? 20:26:58 I believe there's one or two higher level bindings on sdl 20:26:58 hm probably yeah 20:27:02 have you used sdl? 20:27:14 lament: haccordion? Remember the C wrapper I wrote? 20:27:18 that let you use hsdl on OS X? 20:27:22 oh gah 20:27:26 i remember that :\ 20:27:30 It might be physically impossible for a KDE developer to name a frontend of project "foo" with some other name than "kfoo". 20:27:37 hey, it's just one file and a compiler invokation 20:27:40 *invocation 20:27:42 it's ugly! 20:27:43 fizzie: :D 20:27:51 lament: so's drawing stuff to the screen 20:27:52 HOW IMPURE 20:28:01 right, so should i use python then? :D 20:28:10 NO :P 20:28:10 i want to write a go game visualizer 20:28:33 do it in haskell 20:28:35 it's elegant. like go. 20:29:10 i have ideas which may be neat 20:30:04 http://www.postgresql.fr/ 20:30:05 L O L: 20:30:09 :DD 20:30:30 ehird: is that the official postgresql website? 20:30:32 and is it a joke, or serious? 20:30:36 the french one, I think 20:30:39 and joke 20:30:49 * Sgeo can't stop listening to the CADIE music 20:30:58 Sgeo: it's addictive like addiction 20:31:06 ais523: ah, french fansite it seems 20:31:10 The ytmnd music's nice too 20:31:33 "Decision: Yeah, come on. Do you even understand the question? Be honest. If you can explain the issue to me in one sentence, then you're already an experienced INTERCAL programmer and you don't need to consult this guide for assistance. In fact, there's a non-trivial probability that you helped write this." 20:31:48 http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ is the official URL (well, the one linked from postgresql.org) but it's the same site, anyway. 20:32:05 The issue is that in INTERCAL-72, branching is accomplished by RETURNing a non-constant amount; #1/#2 means you save one NEXT slot, but #2/#3 is easier to calculate 20:32:07 Sgeo: hah 20:32:28 Where's my FREE Google Search? 20:32:28 I wonder what 4chan themselves did— 20:32:30 —nothing. 20:32:33 Oh, wait. 20:32:35 It's all in comic sns. 20:32:37 *sans 20:32:48 /b/ that is. 20:33:16 ais523: what's that from? the Deciion: 20:33:18 *decision 20:33:33 ehird: talking about #1/#2 vs. #2/#3 for .5 20:33:39 i mean 20:33:39 where 20:33:41 is the quote 20:33:42 from 20:33:46 The style guide thing. 20:33:46 ehird: http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html 20:33:51 ahh 20:33:51 At least it has the same format. 20:33:55 Con-Pro-Decision. 20:34:20 fizzie: the style guide's genuine, it's long been known that Google had an unofficial internal INTERCAL style guide 20:34:34 well, amongst the 3 or so people who cared 20:35:37 * ehird uses penguinofthegods+iveneverheardofthechap@gmail.com to get Yet Another Free Trial From The Same Plac 20:35:51 e 20:37:15 heh 20:37:22 free trial of what, btw? 20:37:27 and isn't that illegal? 20:37:34 ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686 <-- yeah my arch linux box isn't x86_64 so I can't test that 20:37:34 parallels; virtualbox's 3d accelleration is failing 20:37:39 and yes, but it's their own fault 20:37:45 Deewiant, want to take over maintainership? 20:37:48 AnMaster: It built, haven't run it 20:37:50 And nah :-P 20:37:54 also, I didn't read the ToS, so I plead sanity. 20:38:01 (wishing to keep it, that is) 20:38:10 + I'll update it for non-betas probably 20:38:14 Do you plan to use ?*At Home At School At Work 20:38:14 * - required fieldsSUBMIT 20:38:23 that's one comprehensive questionnaire 20:40:01 I might be wrong, but I think for example, 0 is {}, 1 is {{}}, 2 is { {{}}, {} } 20:40:04 Was I correct? 20:40:05 BRB 20:40:19 ais523, so you released that beta now? 20:40:35 AnMaster: no hosting, as usual 20:40:38 -!- jix has joined. 20:40:40 I've put it on filebin, but it won't stay there long 20:40:46 yes it will 20:40:53 no filebin links have expired yet 20:40:53 ais523, ouch 20:40:53 http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:40:58 ehird: what, seriously? 20:40:59 it just says that on the homepage 20:41:00 ais523, hrrm... 20:41:03 ais523: yes, all my old ones work 20:41:07 I doubt that, I suspect smaller files expire slower than large ones 20:41:12 I've sent tiny and huge files 20:41:15 none. have. ever. expired 20:41:22 it's clear the guy has disk space free 20:41:25 ah, probably their rotating pool just hasn't filled up yet 20:41:42 ais523: since it's been around for years, it'll probably take ages for that to happe 20:41:43 n 20:41:43 CADIE doesn't compile :-/ 20:41:47 i bet the code isn't even in place 20:41:48 ais523, I may be able to get ipv6 only hosting up soon 20:41:57 * AnMaster has such a VPS 20:42:02 oh, utterly brilliant 20:42:08 ais523: ? 20:42:13 please, it would be so great if C-INTERCAL was only available over ipv6 20:42:15 ais523, well apart from that it is semi-broken half of the time 20:42:18 it's just so appropriate 20:42:26 ais523, ssh is only over that too 20:42:41 ais523: What do I do to get CADIE to compile 20:42:47 wait 20:42:49 what? 20:42:51 Deewiant: ick cadie.i 20:42:56 ais523: ICL998I 20:42:56 huh 20:43:09 ais523: "YOU MUST HAVE ME CONFUSED WITH SOME OTHER COMPILER" 20:43:10 this is so meta-fooling that I get a headache... or something 20:43:11 ais523: then I couldn't use ick 20:43:17 Deewiant: rename it to end .i 20:43:27 C-INTERCAL's case-sensitive for filenames 20:43:34 ehird: sixxs 20:43:40 ais523: no thx 20:43:47 just for the download! 20:43:49 Heh, I tried .i first, not noticing it was .I, and got "A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE" :-) 20:43:55 ais523: or I could just not use ick 20:44:03 well, nobody's forcing you to 20:44:07 what would you use instead? sick? 20:44:10 ais523: nothing 20:44:18 well, if you don't need an INTERCAL compiler, don't download one 20:44:20 why not force people to give up their first born and go to a dusty closet to download ick? 20:44:22 nobody's forcing them to 20:44:27 besides, sudo apt-get install intercal works on Ubuntu 20:44:30 although it isn't the latest version 20:44:34 um 20:44:38 what about using clc? 20:44:42 ... 20:44:43 AnMaster: fail 20:44:47 AnMaster: CLC-INTERCAL = sick 20:44:48 oh? 20:44:50 ah 20:44:50 right 20:44:51 or "oo, ick" for older versions 20:45:01 the embedded space actually exposed a bug in mandb 20:45:03 heh 20:45:09 ehird; SixXS has their open proxy for that. Just use http://www.example.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ to access www.example.com over ipv6, while using ipv4 yourself. 20:45:11 ais523, also can't the clc guy host you as he did some times before? 20:45:22 I've sent to him, haven't got a reply yet 20:45:26 he might be busy, or whatever 20:45:26 http://www.google.com/ could not be gatewayed over IPv4: www.google.com does not have an IPv6 address. 20:45:28 Er, no. 20:45:38 Well, it doesn't. 20:45:43 o_O 20:45:44 ais523, I'm setting up thttpd on that vps atm (it doesn't have a lot or ram, most of it is used by an ircd on it= 20:45:46 s/=/)/ 20:45:51 http://ipv6.google.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ works, however. 20:45:53 Oh. 20:45:56 http://www.google.com/images/ipv6_logo.gif 20:46:13 fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well 20:46:16 you can nest them 20:46:18 They're probably afraid of adding an AAAA record for "www.google.com", since it'd break some people who have IPv6 turned on but configured borkened. 20:46:18 just FYI 20:46:21 * AnMaster tried once 20:46:30 I know they have, but I didn't know they could be nested. 20:46:43 fizzie: yep, Wikipedia are gathering stats as to how many people have borken IPv6 20:46:58 by loading an image every now and then on a custom domain that has both an A and an AAAA record, and seeing what happens 20:47:11 This is not an April Fool's Joke. I am leaving to go to college now. Bye for now all 20:47:14 ais523: The great IPv6 experiment would also collect stats like that, I guess, if they ever got it launched. Although it's more about working v6. 20:47:15 bye 20:47:22 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 20:47:23 20:46 AnMaster: fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well 20:47:25 uh, that's what I'm using 20:47:36 ehird: No, the other way around. 20:47:37 fizzie: well, the Wikpiedia works out percentage broken + percentage v4 + percentage v6 20:47:38 oh. 20:47:40 I can't remember what hte results were 20:47:59 how's linux's ipv6 support 20:48:11 os x's is pervasive (i.e., system-wide) 20:48:15 ehird, works but a pain to configure correctly in my experience 20:48:20 ah. 20:48:23 how ... linux. 20:48:25 but that may be due to using tunnel 20:48:29 Well, around here my ISP does native IPv6, and it doesn't need any sort of configuration. 20:48:35 and trying to share a subnet with rest of network 20:48:37 Since the stateless autoconfig is built-in. 20:48:38 I never got that to work 20:49:00 ehird, freebsd's network handling seems easier to get working correctly in general in my experience. 20:49:05 less messy configuration 20:49:06 I did have a manually configured SixXS tunnel, with a subnet shared to my LAN, and there were not really any problems. Although it wasn't quite trivial to configure, no. 20:49:15 the linux one is probably more flexible though 20:49:31 (which means it is harder to use as well) 20:49:56 fizzie, static one or dynamic? 20:50:02 I need the latter due to dynamic IP 20:50:18 Static one. I have no experience with their dynamic stuffery. 20:50:31 ais523, what was the url now again? 20:50:36 for what? 20:50:37 the filebin one 20:50:41 for ick 20:50:45 http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:51:29 AnMaster: "You currently have 1.390 ISK." That stuff adds up fast. 20:51:38 heh 20:51:44 isk? 20:51:45 haven't checked mine for some time 20:53:20 ehird: They have this credit system; you get credits for keeping your tunnel configured properly, and some operations (like changing the endpoint IP if it's a static one, or creating new subnets) costs credits. 20:53:27 Too bad you can't convert them to real money. :/ 20:53:34 How utterly retarded. 20:53:58 I think it's quite funney, actually. I'm not sure about sensible, but funney. 20:54:09 Funn_e_y with an y. 20:54:27 "Tunnel endpoint 2001:14b8:100:17::2 pinged for 71 weeks" seems to be the last in my log, then (in 2008-09) I disabled it since I moved to this native-v6 place. 20:54:38 ais523: 20:54:39 $ advdef -z4 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:54:40 866737 828925 95% ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:54:40 866737 828925 95% 20:54:44 ;P 20:54:58 AnMaster: what does that mean? 20:55:21 fizzie: is finland an good. 20:55:31 ais523, it recompresses more efficiently, a better (but slower) implementation of gzip 20:55:37 ah, aha 20:55:44 or rather of deflate or whatever the actual compression method is called 20:55:47 I have a .pax.lzma version that's rather smaller 20:55:51 but nobody could read it 20:55:53 probably 20:56:22 ais523, there is an advpng that does the same on the datastream in png images. Also optipng and pngout compresses well 20:56:29 iirc there is some WP: page on it 20:56:37 "how to correctly preprocess png before uploading" 20:56:42 or something 20:58:18 http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:58:23 ais523, ipv6 only 20:58:26 thttpd 20:58:26 -!- the_uncanonical_ has joined. 20:58:33 Darnit. 20:58:38 what? 20:58:41 My name is meant to be the_uncanonical_ehird. 20:58:44 -!- the_uncanonical_ has changed nick to ehirdbuntu. 20:58:45 haha 20:58:46 AnMaster: "7z -tgzip -mx=9" creates a 826520-byte .gz file for that .pax. So it's even smaller. 20:58:47 Hi from Ubuntu. 20:59:02 fizzie, mhm, that's interesting. 20:59:06 Hrm. 3d accel isn't working. What's a shame. 20:59:17 ehirdbuntu, what GPU? 20:59:25 hi ehird 20:59:26 if it is ATI I feel for you. 20:59:38 AnMaster: VirtualFake "Maxi-Emulate" 2000 20:59:47 ehirdbuntu, huh? 20:59:48 i.e. none; just 3d accel enabled in Parallels. 20:59:53 oh 20:59:54 right 20:59:59 I'm test-driving Ubuntu, see. 21:00:00 -!- tombom has joined. 21:00:12 ehirdbuntu, you did it native before iirc, when you complained about fans 21:00:22 Yar, that was Kubuntu. 21:00:26 ah 21:00:42 They all pale before the perfection that is ehirdbuntu, obviously. 21:00:51 Well, duh. 21:01:08 I was a bit surprised that not all of [a-z]u?buntu names were in use. 21:01:30 For my next trick, I will install Perl in this VM. 21:02:59 ais523, so what did you think about it? 21:03:00 wonder if 3d accel can be made to worky-work 21:03:07 AnMaster: about what? 21:03:13 http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 21:03:19 ah, pretty much perfect 21:03:28 also the directory index at http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ 21:03:33 eww at thttpd's colours 21:03:42 thttpd is awesome. 21:03:48 if you don't like its colours you are mentally ill 21:04:00 ehirdbuntu, yes agreed, perfect for when you need really really light weight 21:04:11 THTTPD IS KING OF GOOD COLOUR DESIGN 21:04:16 no 21:04:21 yes. 21:04:22 weirdo. 21:04:24 it is institution green isn't it? 21:04:36 or close at least 21:04:58 #99cc99 it seems 21:05:15 Wait, did I say install Perl? 21:05:18 I already have it. 21:05:26 yes, you do 21:05:40 Yeah, same on OS X, except its is horribly out of date. 21:05:48 $ perl --version This is perl, v5.10.0 built for i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi 21:05:50 Well howdy doody 21:06:00 incidentally, you don't have to use CPAN to get the more common perl modules 21:06:04 as many of them have been ported to apt 21:06:07 lepton /usr/www/data/htdocs $ perl --version 21:06:07 This is perl, v5.10.0 built for x86_64-linux-thread-multi 21:06:08 ais523: I'd rather keep it all in one place ... 21:06:13 fair enough 21:06:25 Someone type a pipe. 21:06:26 I don't have a pipe key. 21:06:27 | 21:06:28 it runs x86_64 arch actually (yes I have that now, didn't back when I made ick package) 21:06:28 In this vm 21:06:54 $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'model name' 21:06:54 model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354 21:06:54 model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354 21:06:54 model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354 21:06:54 model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354 21:07:04 well it is a vps so meh 21:07:42 AnMaster: Closest name for #99cc99 I can find in my rgb.txt is DarkSeaGreen3, which is #9bcd9b. 21:08:02 http://www.google.com/mobile/default/brainsearch.html 21:08:19 fizzie, that rgb.txt... what is it based on? 21:08:22 some official standard? 21:08:27 x11. 21:08:28 or did you make it up? 21:08:29 netscape. 21:08:29 etc. 21:08:31 oh 21:08:34 ah 21:08:37 AnMaster: I'm guessing a random collection of sources, very unofficial. 21:09:58 Brain Search sort-of reminds one of the very early MentalPlex™ technology: http://www.google.com/mentalplex/ 21:10:00 any joke RFCs this year? 21:10:14 Dear Ubufox, 21:10:25 thx for freezing my browser trying to install a plugin 21:10:27 uh oh 21:11:05 ehird, never happened to me ;P (because I don't use plugins yeah :D) 21:11:09 AnMaster: Maybe IPv6 over Social Networks: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5514.txt -- I didn't really read it, it's just that the name sounds ludicruous enough. 21:11:30 With IPv6 over Social Network (IPoSN): 21:11:30 o Every user is a router with at least one loopback interface; 21:11:31 o Every friend or connection between users will be used as a point- 21:11:33 to-point link. 21:11:57 sounds bogus enough certainly 21:12:04 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 21:12:12 "A latency of several hours has an impact on the transport protocols. UDP SHOULD be used, and TCP SHOULD NOT be used." 21:12:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:13:54 Hrmph. 21:13:58 It was better in virtualbox 21:15:44 fizzie, why loopback? Am I just too tired or is it part of the joke? 21:19:27 The loopback interface is used for the user ID address, since it can't really be assigned to any of the point-to-point links between friends either. 21:20:52 ah.. 21:20:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMm_DrHYCD0&feature=related 21:21:19 There's a small joke there, in that their suggested /64 prefix for IPoSN node addresses (for a single social networking app) is 2001:db8:face:b00c::/64; it is not too hard to think which application would use that one. 21:21:52 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 21:23:56 "Internet fishbone" <-- heh 21:24:01 I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there. 21:24:49 fizzie, what would db8 mean? Or is it just random? 21:28:37 AnMaster: It's "the IPv6 documentation prefix", meant for example use, a bit like example.com. 21:28:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:28:42 http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/ipv6-documentation-prefix-faq.html 21:28:49 RIPng?ah 21:28:51 err 21:28:53 copy fail 21:29:05 or why was it copied into irc client at all 21:29:06 huh 21:29:16 Part of the 2001:0c00::/23 block allocated to APNIC. Their WHOIS server doesn't mention it, had to google a bit. 21:30:34 -!- olsner has joined. 21:30:42 GHC 6.10.2, whoot whoot 21:30:54 what does the initial 2001 mean btw? 21:31:06 it is almost always that 21:31:30 2001 is for Teredo tunneling 21:31:38 mhm 21:31:47 2000::/3 is the "global unicast" (read: "normal address) range, just about anything fits in there. 21:31:56 what about 2607 ? 21:32:15 my ipv6 vps that now hosts ick starts with that 21:32:16 Deewiant: That's just 2001:0000::/32. 21:32:36 fizzie: Oh, darn, I thought it was the whole thing. 21:32:45 But upon reflection, that'd have been stupid. :-P 21:33:01 The whole 2002::/16 block is for 6to4 tunneling, though. 21:33:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:34:53 * ais523 does the C-INTERCAL release announcement 21:35:02 Looking at IANA's list, it seems that they mostly ran out of space in 2001::/16, and since 2002::/16 was for 6to4, they decided to delegate in a bit larger blocks, giving stuff starting from 2400 to APNIC, 2600 to ARIN, 2800 to LACNIC, 2a00 to RIPE and 2c00 to AfriNIC. 21:35:16 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal 21:36:01 http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments 21:38:18 6bone used to use addresses starting with 3ffe:, which is almost at the end of the 2000::/3 global-unicast range. 21:41:02 ran out of space in ipv6? 21:41:03 err 21:42:05 doesn't a single /64 have more ips than ipv4 does in total anyway? 21:42:19 how can they possibly run out of space yet? 21:42:45 presumably they were giving away bigger chunks than normal 21:42:48 Well, ran out of space in the 2001::/16 block. That's only 5192296858534827628530496329220096 addresses, you have to cut them some slack. 21:42:49 ah 21:43:08 they're hardly going to give out a measly /128 to people who ask, when they could have a /96 or whatever instead, are they? 21:43:15 You can't allocate anyone anything less than /64 in any sensible way, so... 21:43:21 ais523, well that turned out to have been a bad idea for ipv4, I mean IBM had it's own /8 and such... 21:43:26 yep 21:43:41 so why the same mistake again for ipv6... 21:44:28 because people never learn from history 21:45:22 Also: It's not like they're allocating to random companies; the point is that since there are enough bits in there, you can allocate to a huge ISP a /32 or whatever, so that you can use that in the core routing tables, and you don't have to explicitly list all the billion tiny /64 blocks there. 21:45:36 any bets for when ipv7 or ipv8 is introduced to solve this? 21:45:56 it'll be standardised in 2015, but not used until 2042 21:46:03 Eh, CADIE'll solve the addressing issues for us anyway. 21:47:13 Anyway, here's the rationale for large blocks, quoted from wikipedia: "Rather, the longer addresses allow a better, systematic, hierarchical allocation of addresses and efficient route aggregation. With IPv4, complex Classless Inter-Domain Routing (CIDR) techniques were developed to make the best use of the small address space. Renumbering an existing network for a new connectivity provider with different routing prefixes is a major effort with IPv4, as discu 21:47:13 ssed in RFC 2071 and RFC 2072. With IPv6, however, changing the prefix in a few routers can renumber an entire network ad hoc, because the host identifiers (the least-significant 64 bits of an address) are decoupled from the subnet identifiers and the network provider's routing prefix." 21:47:22 ais523, I'd say standard in 2017 or 2018 possibly. Used for cool hostmasks on irc around 2042, used for other stuff around 2078 21:47:58 -!- nooga has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:48:18 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 21:49:08 heh 21:50:00 The hugeness of the IPv4 internet routing tables is a real problem, I understand. http://bgp.potaroo.net/ has a plot; currently a core-y router might have to keep that 300k-entry routing table in memory to know where things should go. 21:50:31 How large is one entry 21:50:42 It would certainly help if you could say things like "this /32 contains all the gazillion IPs in the americas, you can stick all those packets to this pipe". 21:50:46 that ipv6 over facebook wouldn't be impossible to implement I suspect. ( I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there.) <-- same, did anyone answer 21:50:58 ? 21:52:25 Deewiant: I'unno, there's a 32-bit prefix, few bits for the length, then whatever is needed for the actual system to know what to do with it. It's still quite a large list to search for every packet in the tubes. 21:52:47 Well, you wouldn't store it as a list, would you. :-P 21:52:57 Done with hardware, obviously, but that just means it costs more to get bigger memories. 21:53:20 My guess is it's some kind of trie or a perfect hash table 21:53:40 My guess is it's some kind of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_memory 21:53:49 No-one does routing in software with those speeds, I would assume. 21:53:55 That's cheating :-P 21:54:01 Not my department, though. 21:54:54 Certainly software-based routers don't use a plain old list either. 21:55:23 Please relay all messages containing /#esoteric: to #esoteric and all messages containing /#irp: to #irp. 21:58:17 Deewiant: Quick peek at Linux suggests there's some sort of "recently-used" hash table for addresses, and a ip_route_output_slow fallback which uses fib_lookup; there's a kernel config option as to what that uses, FIB_HASH is the default ("very proven and good enough", says help) but there's also FIB_TRIE, which uses "new experimental LC-trie as FIB lookup algorithm". 21:58:26 Deewiant: The trie one is supposed to be faster for large tables. 21:58:42 Refers to http://www.nada.kth.se/~snilsson/public/papers/dyntrie2/ 21:58:48 has anyone tried creating a paradox in IRP? 21:59:02 Probably. 21:59:57 FireFly, http://bgp.potaroo.net/ <-- what do the colors represent? 21:59:58 err 21:59:59 fizzie, ^ 22:00:39 My guess would be different routers' view of the routing table. But that's just a guess. Maybe the plot is documented somewhere. 22:01:17 Heh, 297990 entries in the v4 routing table, 1776 in v6. It's a "bit" smaller. 22:01:25 that's a lot smaller 22:01:40 almost 2.3 orders of magnitude 22:01:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Success). 22:07:53 -!- mmorrow has joined. 22:07:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:08:10 * Gracenotes looks about 22:08:16 hi Gracenotes 22:08:29 and welcome, I don't think I've seen you here before 22:08:32 oh hey, ais523! 22:08:33 although I've seen you elsewhere 22:08:45 what brings you here/ 22:08:48 yes, on Wikipedia namely. I've come across your edits on the Esoteric Wiki 22:09:02 iirc 22:09:04 mostly clearing up spam nowadays, it seems 22:09:21 Didn't know there was an IRC channel though. It was mentioned in #haskell in the context of a Brainfuck interpreter. 22:09:31 this is probably the most active esolang forum anywhere 22:09:37 although it often goes offtopic 22:09:57 of course the guy actually writing the compiler didn't actually join :) 22:10:12 he might invent another Ook, i'm afraid 22:10:20 well, sometimes it seems there are more Brainfuck interpreters than programmers 22:10:29 and more Brainfuck derivatives than interesting languages 22:10:34 heh, yeah. I sort of invented an Esoteric language once, although it was rather simple. Just a stack-oriented simple lambda calculus interpreter 22:10:46 well, that's more interesting than most invented esolangs 22:11:00 -!- kadaver has joined. 22:11:24 ^bf ,[.,]!Hi, kadaver! 22:11:24 Hi, kadaver! 22:11:29 for example, this added 5 and 7: 22:11:33 >f >x >x @ @ #x >f >x >x @ @ #x @ #f >a ?0 >b >f >a -1 @ >b +1 @ ? #b #a #f @ 5 @ 7 @ 22:11:56 the first part is the Y-combinator; after that is a Peano addition 22:11:57 reverse-polish, @ = apply? 22:11:58 it's even self-documenting! 22:11:59 @ @ 22:12:10 ais523: yep. 22:12:13 on both counts 22:12:50 lol hi! friendly channe ? 22:12:56 yes, friendly channel 22:13:01 cool 22:13:03 # makes a lambda abstraction, > recalls a variable (throwing an error if not in scope), ? is a simple condition operator, @ is apply 22:13:07 i wrote a bf interpreter in haskell 22:13:09 once 22:13:14 we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that 22:13:47 hmm... seems we don't have an unlambda bot in here at the moment 22:13:53 ehird: if you're online, bring unlambda in here? 22:14:03 unlambda? *brain hurts* 22:14:15 Gracenotes: like lambda calculus, but without the lambdas 22:14:22 it nevertheless manages to be turing-complete 22:14:24 yeah, SKI combinators 22:14:27 yep 22:14:36 with a few other things added to make it more confusing 22:14:41 nonetheless it manages to make my brain hurt :) 22:14:49 oh, it makes everyone's brain hurt 22:15:02 interestingly, Unlambda is rather easy to write as esolangs go, but almost impossible to read or edit 22:15:18 write meaning programs in it, or an interpreter? 22:15:23 programs 22:15:25 ais523: i guess thats the most effective way to treat trolls 22:15:26 interpreters are a lot harder 22:15:33 -!- swistakm has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:15:47 I am familiar with SKI calculus in the form of the environment monad, though 22:15:52 yay, monads 22:16:06 -!- DH__ has joined. 22:16:26 K = unit, S = bind 22:16:33 ^style 22:16:33 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp 22:16:37 ^style wp 22:16:38 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 22:16:44 I feel like some Wikipedian nonsense, fungot 22:16:45 ais523: how many km long is the line? special:contributions/ fnord ( user fnord) 13:24, 27 june 2008 ( utc 22:16:48 -!- DH__ has left (?). 22:16:54 fungot's written in Befunge 22:16:55 ais523: thats a fairly vague definition of " not serious" ( ' spear') plus the latin and germanic " man" means " land of meadows" from the name of james d. watson? user:landerman56landerman56 ( user talk:landerman56talk) 00:14, 16 december 2007 ( utc) 22:17:04 heh. markov? 22:17:08 yep 22:17:12 it also does Underload and Brainfuck 22:17:30 ^ul (Hello, world!)S 22:17:31 Hello, world! 22:18:08 interpreted Befunge? 22:18:16 yes 22:18:22 it's basically impossible to compile 22:18:31 yeah. the point of it :) 22:18:36 although someone (fizzie IRC)'s working on a JITting funge interpreter 22:18:42 and some impls, like cfunge, are incredibly fast 22:19:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:19:20 yeah. it is just a multidimensional array, in a sense 22:19:40 funge-space is too big to be able to hold all in memory at once, though 22:19:47 or indeed, all on disk without compression 22:19:53 which makes an interesting challenge to interpret 22:20:06 Deewiant here is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing 22:20:08 does it extend infinitely? I thought it just looped. 22:20:15 not infinitely 22:20:15 around the edges 22:20:24 but Befunge-98 extends to INT_MIN and INT_MAX 22:20:27 fungot runs on cfunge iirc 22:20:29 AnMaster: one reason the claim beggars the imagination is that one has some idea of what nationalism is. no wonder zoe was so fed up of dealing with bensozia in myth is carlo fnord ' ' if that is not used commonly and carries with it an implication of involvement in fnord advocacy like fnord, if that's some published author's view, then it must be made extremely clear by re-writing the introduction and then his or her unique de 22:20:32 which is rather large, especially on a 64-bit system 22:20:48 AnMaster: IIRC, it's been run on cfunge and RC/funge, I'm not sure which it's using atm 22:20:50 ais523, efunge is bignum btw 22:20:56 ais523: It's been cfunge lately, yes. 22:20:57 well, yes, so it can be infinite 22:21:04 but it nonetheless loops around the edges 22:21:04 hm. the edges don't loop then? 22:21:04 and yes I know it has been on rc/funge before 22:21:07 okay then 22:21:09 lahey-space is fun 22:21:13 and rather confusing 22:21:15 mostly because I hadn't done SOCK in cfunge yet then 22:21:22 living on a Torus.. 22:21:36 Gracenotes, ah no, not exactly in b98 22:21:40 I'll let ais523 explain 22:21:49 oh dear, befunge-98 wrapping is rather complex 22:21:52 And I've been doing a bit of jitfunge, yes. It'll probably never be a very complete interpreter, though, I don't think I'll support threads any time soon. 22:22:01 Awwwwwwwwwwwwh, GHC 6.10.2 doesn't update the extralibs, I'll have to wait for 6.12 :-/ 22:22:03 it's only like a torus if you're going in a compass direction at the time 22:22:11 yeah. I've been meaning to make an interpreter, but my understanding was that it looped like a Torus with set sizes. 22:22:21 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 22:22:23 the actual looping's a sort of virtual bounce 22:22:33 if it reaches the edge, the IP bounces but turns invisible, in a sense 22:22:41 so it doesn't execute anything until it gets back to the opposite edge 22:22:45 If MSSQLServer seems to be running on computers in the computer lab, is that a sign of somethign malicious? 22:22:51 then it starts executing again, after rebouncing 22:22:54 Sgeo[College]: no, lots of programs use it 22:23:07 that's the same effect as a torus when going orthogonally 22:23:08 ais523: if it's step-wise, why is the lack of execution important? 22:23:20 Gracenotes: well, say you have abc as your program 22:23:37 Gracenotes: If you have multiple threads it matters. 22:23:44 it runs abc, then reaches the right-hand end of the program, then doesn't execute anything when going back to the left, then starts executing again from the left 22:23:52 also, it does all this in zero time even if fungespace is infinitely larg 22:23:54 *large 22:24:06 Can someone check if there's any CADIE stuff on GOOG-411? 22:24:12 My cell phone's not working 22:24:34 oh, multithreaded Befunge. So it's like Python's GIL then? 22:24:48 Befunge-98 is a pretty advanced standard, really 22:24:55 it's a major update over befunge-93 22:25:04 Threads run in a predefined order, one at a time. They're not really parallel. 22:25:12 The wrapping is explained rather well (as far as writing an implementation is considered, and unless you bother about corner cases like jumping over the edge) in the non-appendix part of the Funge-98 spec. 22:25:32 "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks. This means that its delta is reversed and it ignores (skips over without executing) all instructions. Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes 22:25:32 normally - the wrap is complete." 22:25:35 Very pragmatic. 22:25:47 well, jumping over the edge isn't the same in all implementations anyway 22:25:59 so no sane programmer relies on it 22:26:12 'sane'? :) 22:26:28 well, some esolangers are saner than others 22:26:36 indeed, I've gathered 22:26:59 Also some are just saner in other ways, even though the total sum of sanity might not be larger. 22:27:17 What's my sanity level? And others? 22:27:23 Over 9000 22:27:24 fungot: What's yours? 22:27:25 Deewiant: ' ' ' fnord" by another group on methylene blue fnord amyloid fnord by promoting fnord, related to alzheimer's disease. paper was published earlier than taylor's, why is fnord 22:27:49 AnMaster's speed-obsession, for example, is a valid excuse for other more or less sane behaviour. In my opinion, anyway. 22:28:06 AnMaster seems worryingly sane for a #esoteric-er 22:28:23 and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal 22:28:37 fizzie: how does Befunge know where the other edge of code is? 22:28:53 Magic! 22:29:03 interpreters keep track of the outermost values of fungespace that contain non-spaces 22:29:12 and optimise infinity down to finite values that way 22:29:21 Or the outermost values that have ever contained non-spaces, more likely. :p 22:29:33 Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle? 22:29:52 I suppose one could have special markers? 22:30:02 it's generally done in memory 22:30:09 Deewiant: I thought cfunge could handle it, it was jsut slow 22:30:11 ? 22:30:37 slowdown.b98? 22:30:38 ais523: Well sure, CCBI as well, but iterating one step a time through around 2^64-1 or even 2^32-1 values takes time 22:30:43 22:13 ais523: we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that 22:30:44 WHO?> 22:30:45 who? 22:30:47 So I don't really call that handling it 22:30:56 ehird: that person who kept saying one thing, quitting, and changing nick 22:31:07 you mean me? ;-) :P 22:31:11 admittedly, he wasn't in the channel when we were talking to him, but he was obviously logreading 22:31:13 ehird: no, someone else 22:31:14 so, uh, not a very effective troll I take it 22:31:15 can g++ handle lambdas? 22:31:15 I've seen (and written) befunge-93 implementations that mark the edges of the funge-space with specific codes (like 254, 253, 252, 251) that check the x/y coordinate and then wrap if necessary; that lets you just move your IP around without having to check for wrapping. That kind of thing won't work in funge-98, of course. 22:31:16 ais523: We were rather un-friendly, I recall. 22:31:18 you started doing that a bit later 22:31:25 No, I've done that forever. 22:31:29 wait wrong channel 22:31:31 Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98, something I wrote to slow down interpreters 22:31:33 kadaver: I'm not sure, but C++ lambdas aren't proper lambdas anyway 22:31:41 * ehird tries http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb 22:31:46 Your router 22:31:46 Router operator: Elliott Hird 22:31:46 Does "C++ lambdas" mean the boost lambda, or what? 22:31:47 Loopback0 address: 2001:db8:face:b00c::2024:ff0c/128 22:31:49 Friend interfaces: 1 22:31:50 and various bits of C++ almost qualify as esolangs by now anyway 22:31:51 Connection proposals from friends: 0 22:31:53 Your router does not have a default route yet... So, you cannot send traffic to the real IPv6 Internet. Please connect to more friends and wait until RIPng has converged. 22:31:54 Deewiant: /me wats at your code 22:31:56 wow, I think it might acutally work 22:32:05 ehird: IP over facebook? 22:32:11 ais523: yes 22:32:15 from that rfc 22:32:15 Gracenotes: It's relatively clear for Befunge, IMO. You should take a look at Mycology ;-) 22:32:19 classic, and no technical reason why it couldn't work 22:32:23 where's the RFC? 22:32:30 ais523: it's an april 1st one 22:32:31 the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all 22:32:34 it's for any social network 22:32:35 apart from that evil bit one 22:32:44 ais523: hey, that one worked! 22:32:46 ^style irc 22:32:46 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 22:32:46 they wouldn't be nearly as funny if they didn't work, after all 22:32:49 it got put in freebsd trunk, ais523 22:32:53 Gracenotes: Here's fungot's sources: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 22:32:53 ehird: classic 22:32:53 fizzie: i'd say that would be obvious... the furs never reached istanbul... you were asking if something called " parameters" that might be 22:32:56 and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal <-- indeed 22:32:58 Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology.html, the reason I'm the world expert on Befunge conformance testing 22:33:03 ^source 22:33:03 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt 22:33:08 (The wikipedia style is a bit too punctuation-rich for my tastes.) 22:33:24 Hm, is a transcript of CADIE's Triumph video available somewhere? I didn't bring my headphones to school :) 22:33:24 :( 22:33:40 Deewiant: uh. KB. X>X 22:33:47 Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle? <-- more important matters showed up recently 22:33:59 the fix is partly done 22:34:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 22:34:02 AnMaster: Alright, just wondering 22:34:03 Sgeo[College]: triumph? 22:34:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDeCNf4djdY 22:34:15 Gracenotes: Head asplode? :-P 22:34:29 no, the default text editor doesn't like the encoding 22:34:36 It's Latin-1. 22:34:42 un sec. 22:34:51 Compared to Mycology, fungot's really quite readable and sane. 22:34:51 fizzie: but they ask for pieces of papers. all but 1 register needs a temporary? when? 22:34:53 Or really, it doesn't matter, to be honest. 22:34:58 Also, CADIE's text on the images.google.com page changed 22:35:02 It's arbitrary as long as it's ASCII. 22:35:07 fizzie: well, Mycology's a test-suite, they're /meant/ to be insane 22:35:12 or they wouldn't be testing properly 22:35:17 Although I think UTF-8 might break at some point. 22:35:39 Gracenotes: There's a null byte at one point which might explain your problems. 22:35:40 I welcome our ostensibly-written-in-INTERCAL overlords 22:36:00 ais523: Well, they could still be written legibly. :-P 22:36:13 the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all <-- IMPS? Well depends on the value of "works". 22:36:14 I had to fix a bug related to 1y a week ago 22:36:22 Deewiant: just seems like a lot going on 22:36:28 that's all 22:36:29 AnMaster: the pigeon one definitely works, there have been tests 22:36:43 yes 22:36:53 In order to do it, I had to x to a temporary location from which I could x out to a slightly more sparse area where I had room to actually do something 22:37:11 i think wikipedia has the best april fools 22:37:16 it always does 22:37:18 or, as the file would say, DOOG? 22:37:22 a huge amount of effort goes into that 22:37:29 Gracenotes, the encoding thing: litteral embedded null byte 22:37:32 Gracenotes: oh, befunge strings are normally written backwards 22:37:36 to check interpreters doesn't choke on it 22:37:37 so they print out forwards 22:37:39 ais523: yep, I know that much 22:37:52 (cfunge of course doesn't, my editor does though) 22:38:01 Deewiant, did any interpreter ever choke on it? 22:38:03 push onto the stack 22:38:06 then print them 22:38:07 AnMaster: RC/Funge I think. 22:38:10 Did you know ... that Adam de Stratton was arrested for the possession of toenail clippings (example pictured)? 22:38:11 Not sure. 22:38:14 classy 22:38:16 mhm 22:38:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:38:47 But I have to get up in around 6 hours so I'm going to bed now 22:38:49 Night 22:38:57 cya 22:38:58 I love the way they mixed in a genuine UK news story 22:38:59 night too 22:39:03 (in a sec 22:39:04 ) 22:39:07 ofc, all the others are genuine too, but mostly rewritten to look misleading 22:39:36 New cadie blog post 22:40:18 It's like a soap opera for ai nerds. 22:40:30 ais523, about ick, what does http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I actually do? 22:40:38 AnMaster: prints a constant string 22:40:42 AnMaster: you could run it and find out 22:40:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:40:54 meh 22:40:57 but I'm disappointed that not enough people here realise it prints out a constant string, that should be obvious 22:41:06 the actual string itself is rather harder to work out 22:41:11 oh 22:41:22 a fool related string I assume 22:41:34 what makes INTERCAL so (apparently) difficult? 22:42:03 ais523, didn't you say it didn't run in ick? 22:42:07 I don't have clc around 22:42:08 it does run in ick 22:42:14 it's clc it didn't run in, I ported her 22:42:22 Gracenotes: lack of usual arithmetic and flow control operators 22:42:45 ah. so how are conditions generally handler. 22:42:47 Gracenotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg 22:42:48 *handled? 22:43:04 Gracenotes: in INTERCAL-72, the usual trick is to do a computed function return 22:43:10 you create a wrapper function 22:43:25 and return either from it if the condition's true, or the function that called it if the condition's false 22:43:36 in INTERCAL, you can return from a function other than the one you're in at the time, which is rather confusing 22:43:50 I bet cadie is actually real and we just haven't realisd it yet./ 22:44:00 well, that can't be genuine source 22:44:07 but maybe cadie hid her source 22:44:23 ais523: the source says I don't feel like sharing, right? 22:44:26 yes 22:44:31 or something like that 22:44:37 so presumably the source is a joke by cadie in this cadie-is-real alternate universe 22:44:46 yes 22:45:03 in more recent INTERCAL, by the way, computed COME FROM and computed ABSTAIN are the favoured way to do conditional branches 22:45:07 -!- nooga has joined. 22:45:12 moin 22:45:15 ah, COME FROM. Nearly as sane as goto. 22:45:32 computed COME FROM presents some interesting hurdles for implementors 22:45:37 I should know, I maintain C-INTERCAL 22:46:16 ah, interesting 22:46:21 meh 22:46:24 * Gracenotes met ESR once 22:46:24 new version out today 22:46:36 hmm... what was he like? 22:46:38 "Hey I bought it for awhile. It was believable... However the favorited video "bye bye panda" kind of maade me completely doubt the reality of it. And if AI was real, it would have been all over the news if it was on YouTube. Nice try, Google. " 22:46:42 how on earth can you believe that 22:46:48 Gracenotes: oh god 22:46:50 I am so, so sorry 22:46:53 I had no idea 22:46:58 :P 22:46:58 :-( 22:47:00 I've never met him 22:47:23 my C-INTERCAL is technically a fork, but because the original had been discontinued for years it became the de-facto official version 22:47:43 Alan Cox was in Finland in a small meet-thing-thing, but that's the extent to which I've met any Linux-famous people. 22:48:00 wow 22:48:15 cool 22:48:29 I once almost met Bjourne, of C++ fame 22:48:35 *Bjarne? 22:48:39 er, yes 22:48:41 no, not him 22:48:44 How did I manage to misread wikipedia's summary "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer heavily involved in the development of the Linux kernel --" as something like "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer often heavily drunk". 22:48:45 Bjourne Stroustrup 22:48:46 his evil brother 22:48:53 I actually don't recall. 22:48:55 the C++ dude. 22:48:57 the C++ was a joke article was written by him 22:48:59 a fun prank. 22:49:03 ehird, fizzie: Linus number. 22:49:07 i'm in a pub, owning their wifi ap 22:49:08 but it was not to be. I totally missed his lecture :\ 22:49:23 AnMaster: 'has written code in the same file as'? 22:49:25 if so, many hundreds. 22:49:26 thousands. 22:49:54 ehird, not sure how to define it so it is exclusive enough, yet allows us in #esoteric to get low ones 22:50:04 ;P 22:50:19 personally, I think CADIE is just Google's attempt to compete with Wolfram Alpha 22:50:27 ais523: that thing still exists? 22:50:33 CADIE is a prank 22:50:34 ;p 22:50:35 ais523: did you see images.google.com ? Not the one with unicorns 22:50:40 no, i didn't 22:50:41 nooga: no shit sherlock! 22:50:43 you're a genius! 22:50:45 nooga: but she's written in INTERCAL! 22:50:50 indeed 22:50:56 -!- nooga has changed nick to cpt_obvious. 22:51:02 heh, C/C++/C# in http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ 22:51:12 Gracenotes: all of them say that 22:51:18 that's the first intercal mention 22:51:23 ehird: not that, just the name of the language is silly 22:51:24 Different languages have slightly different responses 22:51:26 I mean, C/C++/C# 22:51:26 yeah 22:51:29 ais523: well, yeah 22:51:30 those are pretty different langs 22:51:32 they're all c-alikes 22:51:35 but true 22:51:35 Tailored to the language 22:51:36 so is Java! 22:51:42 "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!" 22:51:48 ais523: probably copied from google code search; as in, the syntaces are similar so it searches them together 22:51:49 who knows 22:51:51 my favorite one :) 22:52:10 well, C-INTERCAL allows linking INTERCAL with C or Befunge code 22:52:21 Be back soon 22:52:35 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 22:54:44 there are no clear docs covering P6 architecture 22:55:39 cpt_obvious: wut? ? 22:55:49 who where what why when did you come from and wut 22:55:59 oh 22:56:01 you're nooga 22:56:54 ehird: no shit sherlock! 22:57:01 :D 22:57:05 you're a genius! 22:57:12 >:D 22:57:18 fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck 22:57:28 Heh 22:57:56 * ais523 gives FireFly an anti-swat shielf 22:57:58 *sheild 22:58:05 Woo 22:58:20 hrm. are there any good logic esolangs? 22:58:26 Gracenotes: prolog :-) 22:58:30 what do you mean by "logic esolangs"/ 22:58:32 so, when does cadie give us brain implants? 22:58:36 ha. ha. ha. 22:58:38 prolog isn't an esolang, but it's pretty interesting anyway 22:58:41 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 22:58:45 vary funay ehird. 22:58:48 and not used nearly as much as it should be 22:58:51 New entry on Cadie's blog 22:58:54 i am haurmor murster 22:58:59 no 22:59:00 that's not new 22:59:05 ais523: mainly modeled after Prolog, though. 22:59:07 I said it was new 5 minutes ago 22:59:17 Oh 22:59:34 Gracenotes: I don't know of any declarative esolangs offhand 22:59:35 constraint programming, satisfiability, probably with unification/backtracking 22:59:45 although that does sound rather esoteric as it is 22:59:49 I have a couple but have never got around to writing the specs 23:00:02 Proud's basically Prolog with all the restrictions removed, but it's uncomputable 23:00:07 this is really elaborate for an april fool's 23:00:15 guess google decided to go all out 23:00:16 I don't see in the log where you mentioned a new post 23:00:18 and Cyclexa's a potentially-practical esolang project, but I haven't really got very far with it 23:00:21 Sgeo[College]: I do 23:00:29 What was the exact line? 23:00:30 22:39 ehird: New cadie blog post 23:00:31 22:40 ehird: It's like a soap opera for ai nerds. 23:00:32 Googling for "Cadie" gives me a news result telling me it's an april fools.. Very clever, Google 23:00:33 which is based on a cross between regexps and Prolog 23:00:49 FireFly: err cadie is an april fools is that what you're saying? 23:00:52 No 23:00:53 But 23:00:59 one of the reasons that Cyclexa's on hold, by the way, is that Perl are stealing all my ideas :( 23:01:26 I get newspaper hits telling me it is, IMO it'd be better if people didn't get to know it is that easy 23:01:38 FireFly: 1. it's blindingly obvious 23:01:44 2. google would never tamper their results like that 23:01:45 Well, true 23:01:49 that's just not the done thing 23:02:26 http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/5897/ yespls 23:02:47 Cadie is still an ongoing story, though. It's not "Oh, Google did a quick joke, end of story". Knowing that CADIE is an April 1st prank is like knowing that a novel is fiction 23:03:03 wait 23:03:04 novels are fictional? 23:03:09 :x 23:03:19 wut? 23:03:31 cpt_obvious: 23:03:41 what? 23:03:54 ais523: (quit) 23:03:57 AnMaster: you've become a synonym for whooosh 23:04:01 ... 23:04:04 since when? 23:04:07 possibly unfairly 23:04:17 since you never do anything but woosh to non-oerjan jokes, AnMaster 23:04:26 ais523, could you write Proud be written in Feather? 23:04:38 no, Proud's uncomputable, Feather is not super-TC 23:04:39 I think my professor's writing broken code 23:04:46 nope 23:04:46 although Feather hurts my head, and I don't want my brain to explode right now 23:04:48 darn 23:04:53 Sgeo[College]: highly propable 23:04:54 ais523, right. Was just wondering 23:05:09 wut's Feather? 23:05:17 NO 23:05:17 oh dear 23:05:19 cpt_obvious: unask that question 23:05:24 QUICK DAMMIT YOU FOOL 23:05:26 no 23:05:29 err, yes, unasking is probably best for all concerned 23:05:29 gaaaaaaaaaaaaah 23:05:30 i refuse 23:05:32 the answer is mu, cpt_obvious 23:05:33 or I'll have to try to answer 23:05:37 there, I unasked it for you 23:05:41 Darn, his code works I think 23:06:01 I like to think my code's easier, but I'm less certain that it works 23:06:02 ehird, I don't have a compulsive disorder about writing down that I laughed about everything. 23:06:05 cpt_obvious: I suggest you ask in #feather-lang, I think it's empty atm so it'll be safe to ask 23:06:06 maybe that is what you meant 23:06:07 let me check, actually 23:06:18 AnMaster: err, just try and shift the mocking on to other people badly why don't you 23:06:19 sometimes I do notice jokes but never mention that :P 23:06:21 oh, not quite, ChanServ's in there 23:06:22 if only it workd 23:06:22 ed 23:06:32 erm 23:06:46 did i mention that i'm in a pub 23:06:51 yes, you did 23:06:54 he did? 23:07:00 which is another reason not to explain Feather right now 23:07:01 don't tell AnMaster 23:07:02 ais523, empty? I added it to autojoin now 23:07:12 explaining Feather to someone /who is drunk/ probably would cause a fatality 23:07:12 ais523: I don't know; alcohol may well improve perception of Feather 23:07:22 well, ok 23:07:24 i'm here with my boss an we're owning wifi networks and drinking :D 23:07:33 although hallucinogens would probably fare better 23:07:55 WTF is Feather 23:08:08 cpt_obvious: feather is like, like, like, a trip, except the drug is time, man 23:08:12 and it trips your code, man. 23:08:14 Got it? 23:08:17 Oh, retroactively. 23:08:18 Man. 23:08:27 cpt_obvious, it lets you redefine the language itself, while running 23:08:28 Infinite. (Man.) 23:08:31 AnMaster: er, no 23:08:32 that's trivial 23:08:35 AnMaster: that's boring, even Perl can do that 23:08:36 many languages have that 23:08:41 ehird, that is one part of it 23:08:43 it lets you redefine what the language /was/ retroactively 23:08:43 there is more yes 23:08:47 which is slightly different 23:08:49 AnMaster: no, that's totally misrepresenting it 23:08:50 and yes, there's more 23:08:52 ais523, I was about to get to that 23:08:59 do it step by step 23:09:00 the retroactivity's the whole point 23:09:01 whrea are the docs? 23:09:05 seeing as nothing in Feather can ever change 23:09:05 haha 23:09:07 cpt_obvious: there aren't any 23:09:11 cpt_obvious: /home/ais523/mind 23:09:13 at least, I wrote some but they were wrong 23:09:15 ah yes 23:09:23 please don't try and grep it; it's very painful I hear 23:09:43 ehird, /dev/ais523_mind .. duh 23:09:53 *pokes the esolang wikio* 23:09:54 Got a 100 on my C++ exam 23:09:57 AnMaster: err, that's bad hierarchy 23:10:00 isn't that right ais523? 23:10:01 vodka has simple system 23:10:01 slow... 23:10:11 -i 23:10:13 ehird, yes but that is because it is in a real OS 23:10:14 er -o 23:10:14 :P 23:10:23 AnMaster: what 23:10:28 ehird: I'm not sure if I'm in a /dev 23:10:34 it's like s/// regexp with some addons to change states while running 23:10:40 ais523: I said /home/ais523/mind 23:10:47 well, yes 23:10:47 AnMaster "corrected" it as /dev/ais523_mind, which is silly 23:10:53 they're both wrong, clearly 23:11:03 ehird, real OS have flaws. Weird bits, ideal on the paper ones maybe doesn't. But there are always some dark corners in any actually existing OS 23:11:03 you think I keep my mind in a /filesystem/? 23:11:26 AnMaster: er, there's nothing stopping you making /home/ais523/mind 23:11:32 as a device file 23:11:38 thinking otherwise is just ignorance 23:11:40 ais523, no, but there is a block device representing it 23:11:41 Well, since ais523 IS a dev[eloper] 23:11:47 he fits in /dev 23:11:48 really? 23:11:55 technically speaking, I'm an engineer 23:11:57 ehird, there is. /home mounted nodev 23:12:07 AnMaster: /dev mounted nodev 23:12:16 WHAT NOW! Oh wait, you set your file system up retardedly so you get retarded results. 23:12:16 ehird: haha, you should so do that someday 23:12:21 ehird, system wouldn't boot 23:12:27 AnMaster: why not? 23:12:27 AnMaster: who cares 23:12:29 it's SECURE like that! 23:12:33 and FAST! 23:12:37 I don't think there's any technical reason why you can't boot with /dev set nodev 23:12:38 Doing nothing is EXTRA SPEEDY. 23:12:43 If you need more you could BENCHMARK IT 23:12:52 ais523, /dev/console and /dev/null are needed at least for some core system parts. udev, init and a few other ones iirc 23:12:54 although it would depend on how your init worked 23:12:56 actually 23:13:04 AnMaster: init can be very simple 23:13:16 what you mean is /your/ system wouldn't boot, because your init is trying to be too clever 23:13:20 ais523, yeah but I meant on a GNU/Linux system 23:13:27 thought you used that? 23:13:33 well, yes 23:13:40 but even so, you can get inits that don't care about /dev 23:13:41 hm /dev/zero not /dev/null iirc 23:13:42 and then you can define delimiters 23:13:44 unsure 23:13:53 you could just set init to ash or something on the bootlodaer, for instance 23:14:07 ash? 23:14:13 for a string that compiles to the base language in a previously defined way 23:14:16 whats thats esotericlanguage with all the parenthesises called? 23:14:16 :P 23:14:19 ais523, it would want some tty I think 23:14:22 Sgeo[College]: one of the simplest shs around atm 23:14:27 and then in that language you can do the same etc etc 23:14:28 AnMaster: you can have a tty without having /dev available 23:14:28 ais523, not sure how that would be handled.. 23:14:33 obviously 23:14:33 dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/ais523_mind 23:14:35 (map (lambda (x)(* x x)) '(1 2 3)) 23:14:40 Sgeo[College]: EPERM, luckily 23:14:44 ais523, I guess kernel hands it over as an open fd? 23:14:58 actually invoking init would be weird I guess 23:14:58 I think so 23:15:04 although it's probably just the serial connection 23:15:18 ? 23:15:19 write a kernel in brainfuck,then you have secured maintenance work for the rest of your life=the wya IT works 23:15:21 and the kernel invokes init by setting up memory as if it was a userspace process, then simulating fork/exec 23:15:30 If EPERM means read-only, did you just say you never learn? 23:15:38 no, EPERM means you aren't allowed to do that 23:15:38 is writing a toy-kernel hard? 23:15:44 so it's read-only for you, but isn't for me 23:15:49 kadaver: not particularly 23:16:03 sudo dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/ais523_mind 23:16:04 in UNIX, how readable or writable a file is depends on who's reading or writing 23:16:07 the same in Windows, actually 23:16:14 Sgeo[College]: you aren't in the admin group for my mind 23:16:17 in fact, I don't think I am 23:16:26 ((:[]) . join (*)) =<< [1, 2, 3] 23:17:05 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 23:18:37 ais523: how many LOC can you get away with doing something minimal? I heard the initial linux kernel linus released was just 10K loc 23:18:47 depends on how minimal 23:19:00 if all you want with your kernel is to run some minimal esolangs, you can do it well under a KB of machine code 23:19:14 asiekierka isn't here, but IIRC he was working on something like that 23:19:18 a live-esolang floppy disk 23:19:41 oh 23:19:46 i'm writing toy kernel 23:20:49 heh, it seems there's no working IRP interpreter currently 23:20:52 multiprocess kernel with a memory manager, own filesystem and multiple text terminal 23:20:56 and it sucks 23:21:00 ais523: well i guess it depends on how you define kernel. what would en esolang kernel need to be able to do? 23:21:08 Gracenotes: #IRP is actually surprisingly active today 23:21:15 normally it idles for weeks at a time 23:21:20 kadaver: run esolangs 23:21:23 hrm, really 23:21:26 and some esolangs have very small interps 23:21:39 Gracenotes: it seems some teacher's set a university project on IRP 23:21:45 and all the students have been coming in there asking for help 23:21:55 weirder things have happened, I suppose... 23:21:59 IRP? 23:22:01 ais523: I missed that? 23:22:06 Any logs? 23:22:22 it isn't logged, unfortunately 23:22:40 ah this IRP 23:22:40 but you saw the conversation with DH__, at least 23:23:08 -!- neldoreth has joined. 23:23:13 hmm... seems idle again 23:23:24 lecture's probably over 23:23:50 multiple text terminal = multiple windows? any graphics? 23:27:04 bbl 23:33:57 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:35:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:38:10 night 23:40:03 Nighty 23:40:42 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:43:41 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl 23:44:07 that's been there for a while 23:44:12 I'm not sure what to do about it 23:44:17 the article's also confusing, too 23:44:26 ais523: i was referring to the last section 23:44:28 which is new 23:44:33 oh 23:44:50 that can be golfed by at least three characters 23:45:02 probably four, actually 23:45:08 ais523: how? 23:45:12 apart from removing the space 23:45:13 which is boring 23:45:21 eval join"\n",<> 23:45:33 when all you can shave off is whitespace and a ;, it's not cool any more. 23:45:44 leaving them in is saying "I'm so good at golfing, I'm just going to leave this low-hanging fruit." 23:46:18 low-hanging fruit is generally the tastiest 23:46:27 ehird: heh 23:46:36 I was going to change the \n to a literal newline 23:46:40 that's what saves the last character 23:47:50 #!/usr/bin/env perl 23:47:50 # Released under the MIT license. 23:47:51 # 23:47:53 # TODO: add POD docs 23:47:55 use strict; 23:47:57 use warnings; 23:47:59 my @lines = <>; 23:48:01 my $code = join("\n", @lines); 23:48:03 Uh... why is the newline even needed there? I thought that if you do <> in a list context, the elements returned still contain any newlines present. 23:48:04 eval($code); 23:48:05 #- end of file - 23:48:07 damn, my whitespace was tarnished 23:48:09 #!/usr/bin/env perl 23:48:12 23:48:13 # Released under the MIT license. 23:48:15 # 23:48:17 # TODO: add POD docs 23:48:20 23:48:21 use strict; 23:48:24 use warnings; 23:48:25 23:48:27 my @lines = <>; 23:48:29 my $code = join("\n", @lines); 23:48:31 23:48:33 eval($code); 23:48:35 23:48:37 #- end of file - 23:48:39 fizzie: eval isn't in a list context is it 23:48:41 eval join <> just reads one line 23:48:43 since the first argument is the sep 23:48:48 fizzie: oh, you're right 23:48:57 Huh? join <> definitely uses <> in a list context. 23:49:04 yep 23:49:05 fizzie: perl -e'eval join <>' 23:49:07 only reads one line 23:49:10 I know this because _i tested it_ 23:49:12 Yes, but "". 23:49:16 Oh. 23:49:17 You don't need a newline. 23:49:18 Well, sure. 23:49:33 edited. 23:49:38 great, wiki formatting fucked it 23:49:53 Fixed. 23:49:59 perl -0e'eval(<>)' 23:50:03 considerably smaller again 23:50:07 ais523: no fair 23:50:12 that's using the command line 23:50:18 also, perl -0e'eval <>' is shorter still 23:50:19 oh, it doesn't need the parens 23:50:28 but `eval join '', <>;` doesn't use the command line, and is pretty 23:50:29 and perl -0e'eval<>' is shorter still 23:50:33 so THERE 23:50:35 the parens were to force list context 23:50:44 but you don't need list context there 23:51:12 ais523: what is the value of $x after: 23:51:20 sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); } 23:51:23 my $x = foo(); 23:51:25 ? 23:51:33 3 I think 23:51:38 x_x 23:51:41 foo returns an array, an array in scalar context returns its length 23:51:49 oh 23:51:53 I thought you meant last element 23:51:54 heh 23:52:00 no, that would be stupid 23:52:03 yes 23:52:11 fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:52:11 x 3 23:52:11 fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 1, 1); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:52:11 x 1 23:52:25 Explain. 23:52:29 hmm... maybe I'm wrong 23:52:33 fizzie: guh 23:52:47 [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:52:47 x 7 23:52:51 Yes — that would be, and is, stupid. 23:52:51 Ugh, I think I'm too tired to think properly 23:53:00 I really didn't think it'd actually return the last element. 23:53:06 The professor just put up his solution, and it's saner and less wtf'y than mine 23:53:06 what happens if you separate the my and the $x? 23:53:16 I mean, mine is a WTF 23:53:17 the my may be forcing list context 23:53:27 [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:53:27 x 7 23:53:33 aargh 23:53:34 [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'x 7 23:53:40 FUCK PERL :-D 23:54:00 http://rafb.net/p/pqWjyX34.html 23:54:03 * Sgeo[College] slaps self 23:54:19 Sgeo[College]: NOT RAFB 23:54:29 Which pastebin? 23:54:35 Should I use? 23:54:38 Sgeo[College]: is that yours or the professors? 23:54:41 also, use rafb, it annoys ehird 23:54:43 ais523: mine 23:55:04 that's pretty elegant IMO, half the checks are redundant, but they make the code clearer 23:55:37 LOGGET READERS: http://www.nopaste.com/p/atKQKnKjab 23:55:47 First time writing it, I actually made the mistake of 90 <= num_grade <= 100 23:55:49 for example 23:55:56 python lets you do that 23:56:10 What is even weirder is this: 23:56:11 say, is there an efficient way to do 'round x up to the nearest power of 2?' 23:56:12 fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { my @a = (1, 2, 7); return @a; } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:56:12 x 3 23:56:18 -!- kadaver has left (?). 23:56:18 ehird: yep, see that bithacks thing 23:56:19 fizzie: LOL WAT 23:56:26 ais523: relinketj? 23:56:35 I guess "return @a" there is in a non-list context. Or what is happening? 23:56:41 fizzie: I've just figured it out 23:56:52 you're calling sub foo in a scalar context 23:56:53 [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";' 23:56:53 x 7 23:56:58 -!- cpt_obvious has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:56:58 Does it use the comma expression instead of list there in the return (1, 2, 7)? 23:57:01 ais523: well sure and? 23:57:01 so you're writing return (1, 2, 7) 23:57:10 that means the return is evaluated in a scalar context 23:57:15 so that's the comma operator, not an array literal 23:57:15 and? 23:57:19 oh god 23:57:23 the subroutine parses differently depending on how you call it 23:57:24 that's just hideous 23:57:31 everyone loves Perl! 23:57:34 it changes your code semantics depending on how it's called? 23:57:34 Yeah, something like that was my guess too. Heh. 23:57:35 Is CADIE done putting links on the side? 23:57:37 good lord 23:57:41 can you imagine how much that breaks? 23:57:48 not very often, actually 23:57:59 ;_; 23:58:17 fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); my @x = foo(); print "x-scalar $x, x-list ", join(" ", @x), "\n";' 23:58:17 x-scalar 7, x-list 1 2 7 23:58:18 ais523: sorry, have an urge: i said how much, not how often 23:58:22 so your response is a non-sequitur 23:58:27 urge over 23:59:08 I think this sort of Perl nastiness is a nice point to go to sleep; night. 23:59:11 fizzie: and scalar @x would be 3, in that case 23:59:19 night 23:59:25 night 2009-04-02: 00:00:26 * ais523 vaguely wonders what foo would do in void context, but it's probably optimized out 00:02:51 #perl on CADIE: 00:02:52 00:02 sproingie: mmmKAY 00:02:56 "yeah wut eva" 00:03:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:03:20 hi oerjan 00:03:20 The Perl people don't care for CADIE? 00:03:28 hi ehird 00:03:35 Sgeo[College]: one perl person finds it stupid, I think is more accurate 00:03:35 well, it seems that Slashdot achievements are here to stay 00:03:47 ais523: achivements? 00:03:55 also, what was /.'s ap foos? 00:04:03 ehird: there were several 00:04:07 but achievements were their on-site things 00:04:14 it's basically a concept taken from MMOs 00:04:25 http://slashdot.org/~ais523/achievements probably explains it better than I could, anyway 00:04:32 hahah 00:04:36 that's gotta be not real 00:04:56 00:03 sproingie: my attention span isn't letting me read the texty bits 00:04:56 00:03 sproingie: "on april 1 2009, skynet achieved consciousness. and decided it liked pandas" 00:05:02 Update: sproingie has severe ADHD. 00:05:04 with Slashdot, you never know 00:05:10 And is obnoxious. 00:05:15 The Contradictor 00:05:21 Hmm, so nothing I didn't know. #perl is not that much of a good channel. 00:05:25 Sgeo[College]: for putting a negative tag on something 00:05:31 many of them are really easy, it seems 00:05:43 I wonder how many people will try to get as many as possible? 00:06:07 http://news.php.net/php.internals/41374/uq ← Wow, php guys have a good april fools for once 00:06:32 ehird: that one's genuine 00:06:34 look at the daet 00:06:35 *date 00:06:38 ais523: WHOOSH! 00:06:40 I've known about it for a while, anyway 00:06:53 That was a gale-force wind trying to go over your head but knocking you over instead. 00:09:35 anyone have that perl script that moves the window around in waves? 00:10:17 00:09 Limbic_Region: sparc - no, you should be prematurely worrying about optimization 00:10:24 heh 00:11:14 also, wow at the other choices they considered for namespace separators 00:11:17 :) was one of them 00:11:20 yep 00:11:30 PHP:)Is:)Awesome 00:11:47 [16:09:18] <@CelloG> i.e. foo::bar might be a short name - class foo, method bar, but it could also be a long name, function foo::bar 00:11:48 [16:09:25] <@CelloG> and the engine just assumes it is a short name 00:11:49 [16:09:36] <@CelloG> and that is why :: is fatally flawed as a separator 00:11:53 YOUR IMPLEMENTATION SUCKS 00:12:27 oh, I see the problem, namespaces and classes are separate in PHP 00:12:56 still, Perl used to use ' as a namespace separator 00:13:02 that was really fun 00:13:05 what?! 00:13:09 example? 00:13:09 IIRC it's still accepted for backwards compatibility 00:13:13 although :: is more usual 00:14:25 $ perl 00:14:27 use Language'INTERCAL'Parser 00:14:34 ais523: and then youc an do 00:14:40 Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new()? 00:14:45 > _______________________________________________ < 00:14:48 ;-; 00:14:50 ;_; 00:15:08 $ perl 00:15:09 use Language'INTERCAL'Parser; 00:15:11 my $x = Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new(); 00:15:12 Usage: new Language::INTERCAL::Parser(SYMBOLTABLE) at - line 2 00:15:14 the last line is perl's output 00:15:29 VHDL still uses ' to extract metadata from things 00:15:32 and also as a cast operator 00:16:01 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 00:16:12 write (l, String'("Hello world!")); 00:16:18 <--- a line from the standard VHDL hello world 00:17:41 :x 00:18:08 oh, and /also/ to delimit characters 00:18:30 the other use is, for instance a'lower to get the lower bound of array a 00:18:34 After a lot of research, I discovered the third one was in 00:18:34 fact Baudot (the INTERCAL variety, I believe) 00:18:37 ok, wtf 00:18:42 how come coppro knows everything? 00:18:55 maybe he's secretly CADIE 00:19:08 well, the only Baudot encoder/decoder I know of is the one that comes with C-INTERCAL 00:19:16 oh, and CLC-INTERCAL itself, ofc 00:19:27 it's a 19th-century encoding, after all 00:21:07 anyway, that Baudot was a polygolt 00:21:09 *polyglot 00:21:17 between the traditional and INTERCAL versions 00:21:27 why have one when you can have both? 00:21:56 ais523: hmm, do you know coppro, perchanc? 00:21:56 e 00:21:59 It seems likely 00:22:05 not outside Agora 00:23:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:24:12 I think cadie's committed suicide or something. 00:24:31 maybe they switched her off 00:24:41 * kerlo goes to google.co.uk to check on the ehird version of CADIE 00:24:54 hmm... google's pretty slow atm 00:24:57 fun fact: I am the only brit 00:25:40 Actually, there are seven Brits. ehird is one, and the six others make up the entirety of the BBC. 00:25:56 kerlo: they just swap costumes a lot? 00:26:03 also, where will i work when I grow up? The BBC? 00:26:14 Probably. 00:26:20 :-D 00:26:31 kerlo: seven brits is more than the 3 finns 00:26:38 (of which 5 or 6 are in here; I forget 00:26:38 ) 00:27:16 Actually, I'm mistaken. There are seven people at the BBC, but one isn't officially a member; she just joins them whenever they need an attractive female, because all the actual BBC members are male. 00:28:00 Con: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects. 00:28:02 Pro: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects. 00:28:04 I love that style guide 00:28:14 Also, one of the BBC members is dead. 00:28:34 kerlo: am I ehird, or am I at the BBC? 00:28:48 I hope I'm not ehird, that would be worrying 00:28:53 ais523: chances are you're at the BBC. 00:28:58 ais523: sorry you had to find out this way 00:29:00 you're the unifier 00:29:03 you're both me, and at the BBC 00:29:10 it helps to keep the two realities in bind 00:29:19 sort of, subatomic reality glue 00:29:40 ais523 is the female. 00:30:05 if you measure the female over time she turns out to be indistinguishable to me at micro levels 00:30:10 even though we are separate at the macro levels 00:30:11 i take it you take turns playing the Doctor? 00:30:29 http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2009/04/brand-new-language-on-google-app-engine.html 00:30:34 FORTRAN 77 on app engine 00:31:10 thanks to CADIE, ofc 00:32:07 you have to mail them punch cards to submit the code, though 00:32:34 "Checking the HTTP header for google.com today, you will find it’s run by “ELIZA”, “WOPR”, “IIS/3.0”, “Google Operating System (BETA)” or similar... perhaps depending on the time you’re checking" 00:32:35 :-D 00:32:53 that IIS is very worrying 00:33:36 "Google’s image album software Picasa now comes with a special “Auto Red Eye” functionality for version 4.1 (it turns normal eyes into red eyes). I was only able to see this on the Picasa homepage when using a US proxy. " 00:34:06 they added an option to google code search to search for programs in lolcode 00:34:15 yes 00:34:18 I already said 00:34:25 ais523: IIS? 00:34:32 oerjan: Microsoft's webserver 00:34:40 ayeeh! 00:34:54 losing out quite badly to Apache in terms of market share 00:36:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:36:46 How did you get started as a designer of programming languages? 00:36:46 Ken Iverson showed me APL in 1969 when I was 11. 00:36:52 — Kx systems (K developers) ceo 00:37:25 Did APL invent the term "programming language"? 00:37:30 no 00:37:58 kerlo: that's a seriously great question 00:38:04 I'd never even thought in those terms before 00:38:10 it's such a pity the answer is no, actually 00:39:00 http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/deluge_of_browser_security_issues_drives_mass_migration.html 00:39:05 Non-lynx browsers are dead, Netcraft confirms it. 00:39:18 netcraft did indeed confirm it 00:39:22 but does that make it true? 00:39:29 Just ask any Slashdot troll! 00:39:42 also, that stuff about encoding shellcode into smileys, is it definitely known to be false? 00:39:54 err 00:39:54 link? 00:39:55 after all, it could be true, although would look suspicious 00:40:08 http://blog.cr0.org/2009/04/massive-exploitation-of-instant.html 00:40:18 lol 00:40:18 of course, actually getting the smileys to run would be harder 00:40:21 obviously false 00:40:27 http://www.cr0.org/misc/smile.rb 00:40:33 WTF pl indeed. 00:40:41 ais523: well, it just makes shellcode look like smilies 00:40:43 doesn't run i 00:40:43 t 00:41:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:41:23 oh, and the resulting smilies aren't executable 00:41:32 smiley steganography < smiley/shellcode polyglots 00:41:40 :() {:| :&} 00:41:44 Three smilies. 00:41:57 :() {:| :&} ;: 00:42:02 Three smilies and ... something. 00:42:04 yep, that's referred to as the killer smiley sometimes 00:42:08 :() 00:42:09 {:| 00:42:11 :&} 00:42:13 ;: 00:42:15 so beautiful. 00:42:22 the last one's someone with glasses, winking 00:42:30 :D 00:42:49 Very small glasses that are below the eyes? 00:42:49 Erste said that while the bank is dedicated to providing an accessible online banking experience, some customers still report difficulties when trying to make HTTPS requests through Telnet without the aid of an extended keyboard layout. 00:43:03 kerlo: "four-eyes" is a common nickname for glasses-wearers 00:43:06 To bolster Lynx's growing footprint in the browser market, Netcraft has released the Netcraft Toolbar for Lynx. This free add-on blends in at the top of every web page, and not only protects Lynx users against phishing attacks, but the beautiful text-based rendition of the Netcraft logo is sure to brighten anyone's day. 00:43:07 ehird: haha 00:43:11 Ah. 00:43:16 http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/netcraft-toolbar-for-lynx-resized.png 00:43:26 also, I tried using Lynx to access a bank website earlier today 00:43:29 it worked pretty well 00:43:37 although Lynx is so garish and hard to control, I preger w3m I think 00:43:40 *prefer 00:43:53 maybe the first text browser you use is the one that you stick with for life 00:44:27 w3m is sort of "gnu lynx" 00:44:42 well, it certainly has too many features 00:44:45 it even has tabbed browsin 00:44:48 *browsing 00:44:55 which I think is hilariously funny, despite being useful 00:45:33 the real pain is links, really — you want to click links with a mouse because they're suited for that sort of addressing 00:45:46 that works in w2m 00:45:48 *w3m 00:45:52 seriously 00:45:56 given a sufficiently bloated terminal. 00:45:58 it uses some sort of terminal mouse-click layer 00:46:04 does it work in urxvt? that terminal is excellent 00:46:05 also, you have to click twice I think 00:46:16 vim lets you move the cursor with one click 00:46:18 with :set cursor 00:46:21 and I don't know, I've only tried in gnome-terminal 00:46:33 ehird: same with w3m, one click moves the cursor, the second follows the link 00:47:04 'moves the cursor'? 00:47:12 oh, right, w3m lets you move around text for no reason whatsoever 00:47:22 I find it easier than trying to use Lynx 00:47:34 but then, I'm used to using the keyboard as a mouse 00:48:01 i'm a pretentious mouse user 00:48:45 pretention levels: hunt and peck keyboarder and mouser < keyboard-only hardcore 1337 h4ck3r < person who uses keyboard for typing and mouse for precise, vague and absolute addressing 00:48:49 *pretension 00:49:19 I mostly only use the mouse for websurfing 00:49:35 and even then, I use w3m if I want to quickly look something up on a local html file rather than do serious surfing 00:49:40 because it means I don't have to go to the mouse 00:49:44 oh, I use the mouse for games too 00:50:10 spend a week with plan 9; you can't even use up/down keys for editing (they are pgup/pgdown) 00:50:23 just left/right, typing, and backspace (no shift-selecting, or even DEL key) 00:50:38 it's simultaneously agonizing and enlightening 00:51:36 and elitist 00:51:50 w00t 00:51:52 Plan 9 isn't an elitist system, just an opinionated one. 00:51:59 A very, very, very opinionated one. 00:52:03 :] 00:52:10 "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless 00:52:10 to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and 00:52:11 elitist. No novices asking stupid questions." 00:52:18 ais523: `apt-cache show dwm` would you? 00:52:22 "I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right" 00:52:23 I bet £50 it has a package 00:52:44 [[maybe you should go to school and learn how to spell cuz who the fuck 00:52:44 spells marK with a c? musta been a baby of a couple retards]] 00:52:46 ^ lol wat 00:52:58 fail. 00:52:58 Please notice that dwm is currently customized through editing its source code, so you probably want to build your own dwm packages. This package is compiled with the default configuration and should just give you an idea about what dwm brings to your desktop. 00:53:05 <--- partial output from apt-cache show dwm 00:53:08 ais523: £50 plz 00:53:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:53:16 ehird: I didn't accept the bet 00:53:25 harumph 00:53:25 it was implicit, clearly 00:53:57 let the record show that ais523 tacitly accepted the bet 00:54:05 but I didn't 00:54:10 what language is dwm written in? 00:54:14 I'm guessing C from the dependencies 00:54:20 c 00:54:27 I was wondering about somehow smalltalkifying it so that you could edit the source while it was running 00:54:29 ais523: it's written by the suckless.org people 00:54:41 they're a pretentious, people-hating bunch of plan 9 addicts 00:54:46 http://dwm.suckless.org/ 00:55:05 ais523: I think if you did such a modification they'd treat it akin to a death threat and an insult on their mother 00:55:15 is that firefox in the foreground in that screenshot? 00:55:22 Yes. 00:55:36 ais523: asking consistency of them is henious. 00:55:39 ah, ok 00:55:40 Go to your room and think about what you've done. 00:56:09 "dwm has no Lua integration, no 9P support, no shell-based configuration, no remote control, and comes without any additional tools, such as for printing the selection or warping the mouse." 00:56:20 I like the way that's in the feature list 00:56:31 Yeah, they go on about that a lot: http://suckless.org/common/ 00:56:59 hmm... also, it uses mercurial as the vcs 00:57:07 Yes. 00:57:08 I'm disappointed, I'd expected them to use something I'd never heard of 00:57:16 ais523: regardless of how silly they are, reading the code is nice: http://code.suckless.org/hg/dwm/file/deaa276abac1/dwm.c 00:57:23 1706 lines; and a lot of sane people swear by it 00:57:27 as their WM 00:57:30 modern-software people, that is 00:57:32 not unix hermit 00:57:32 s 00:58:31 43 /* macros */ 00:58:40 how does that fit in with their concept of using less code rather than bad code 00:58:47 I mean, obviously that section contains macros 00:58:50 it's full of #define 00:58:58 that's like writing x = y + 2; /* addition */ 00:59:00 ais523: send a patch just to remove those two lines 00:59:08 heh 00:59:11 they'll probably accept it and hail you as a genius in the commit messag 00:59:11 e 00:59:19 207 /* variables */ 00:59:23 130 /* function declarations */ 00:59:24 4 lines 00:59:43 247 /* function implementations */ 00:59:47 5 00:59:52 I've got it 00:59:57 it must have been written by COBOL programmers 01:00:11 COBOL requires you to do that, C doesn't but they've kept the habit 01:00:39 http://incise.org/tinywm.html i still love this wm 01:00:50 I bet I could write a humane WM in ~500 lines 01:00:59 ehird: [01:00] IRP > Should I go to York or Manchester University next year? (U.K.)- if all else fails, mudkips or coin-flips shall suffice. 01:01:08 how long's xmonad, by the way? 01:01:11 ehird's hobby is pressing the last letter of his sentence and the enter key simultaneously 01:01:16 . 01:01:25 kerlo: I thought it was me that did that, not ehird 01:01:31 It works roughly half the time/ 01:01:38 Maybe it is./ 01:01:43 ...I'm bad at this. 01:01:59 going, going, → 01:03:20 ehird: that dwm source is clearly golfed 01:03:28 it's doing things like fitting entire loops into the head of a for loop 01:03:44 which is always possible, but only used for golfing and showing off AFAIK 01:07:33 Anyway, kerlo's Canonical Programming Rule: The only good way to write a program is the best way to write the program. 01:08:18 what's the canonical programming hello world, in your opinion? 01:08:44 Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 1: If you can think of multiple equally good ways of writing that beat all other ways of writing it, you need to come up with an even better way of writing it. 01:09:00 heh 01:09:09 Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 2: If there are multiple best ways of writing a program, the programming language sucks. 01:09:18 double heh 01:09:22 ais523: what language? 01:09:30 the best one 01:09:31 obviously 01:09:47 Okay. 01:10:08 PutStrLn "Hello, world!" 01:10:55 what language is that? 01:11:00 A hypothetical language I've thought about since... a while ago. 01:12:36 speaking of lines-of-code, i happened to graph loc for each lua version earlier http://moonpatio.com/lua/lua_loc.png 01:12:50 [17:20:15] <@lsmith> ok .. this is quite unanimous .. even if we count Stas to be of the same opinion as dmitry 01:12:52 After I finish it, ask the Singularity to upload a description into your mind. 01:12:56 It'll take a while, you see. 01:13:18 mmorrow: that's quite a lot for a lightweight scripting language 01:13:21 * kerlo decides that the best thing he could possibly do right now is read the Wikipedia page "Concept" 01:14:26 ais523: the lua code is some of my favorite C code (wrt clarity/tidyness) 01:14:36 * kerlo has an epiphany 01:14:56 [17:34:18] <@andrei_> hey, what about :) separator 01:15:06 Nice. 01:15:08 hmm... I'm not surprised they went with \ in the end 01:15:24 kerlo: from the actual discussion between PHP devs about what char to use for namespacing 01:16:33 apparently they had to make a decision in a hurry because it was degenerating into an emacs vs. vim holy war 01:19:49 Hey, I think this also solves another of my problems. 01:20:05 what, smileys as the PHP namespace separator? 01:21:07 Well, either I've forgotten which problem it solves, or I've realized that it actually doesn't solve that problem. 01:23:13 well, what was the solution, anyway? 01:23:18 even if it's looking for a problem 01:24:36 Concept splitting. 01:24:57 If you don't know whether an item is an instance of a category or not, split the category into two categories, one containing the item and the other not. 01:25:44 If you forget about one category, great: you've determined that the other category is the one worth remembering. 01:26:08 And now, having told you that, I have to kill you. 01:26:45 Or at least ask you if you'll ever write or otherwise work on an AI that isn't Friendly. 01:27:02 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 01:27:09 R.I.P. CADIE.. I think 01:27:14 ehird: transcript of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ9Q40kIR0 ? 01:29:46 kerlo: nah, too lazy. 01:30:15 I was mainly asking ais523, you know. 01:30:29 that might be more important. 01:30:45 kerlo: ah, aha 01:30:57 that's how TAEB identifies items in NetHack, it's a rather limited application though 01:32:20 TAEB? 01:32:26 NetHack-playing bot 01:32:39 unrelated to #esoteric, although it's something I work on from time to time 01:32:44 not my project, other coders are more active on it 01:32:52 I'm just a low-level person who helps out occasionally 01:33:45 Really? 01:34:03 it's not april fool's any more, and I have no reason to lie to you about that 01:35:01 I want proof, not because I don't believe you, but because proofs lead to understanding that mere statements do not. 01:35:25 Much how the string "IO ()" is much less useful than an actual Haskell program. 01:35:29 kerlo: don't trust him, he could be lying about his timezone 01:35:33 kerlo: http://sartak.org/code/TAEB/ 01:35:38 oerjan: haha 01:35:51 Mmkay. 01:36:13 my AI branch is at http://ais523.sartak.org/TAEB-AI-Planar/ 01:37:56 It's not April Fools here 01:37:58 April Fools! 01:38:00 01:40:04 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 01:41:21 heh, http://www.sixxs.net.ipv4.sixxs.org.sixxs.org.ipv4.sixxs.org/main/ actually works 01:42:58 wtf, I just got first post on a Slashdot article 01:49:58 and I wasn't trolling 01:53:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:54:30 That URL makes me think of http://normish.org/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/home/ihope/root/var/www/ 01:54:37 heh 01:54:54 Normish is something special, alright 01:55:32 Heck, a better one: http://normish.org/home/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/var/www/root/var/www/ 02:03:03 -!- zbrown has joined. 02:03:10 -!- zbrown has left (?). 02:09:30 ais523: but where's your "frost pist!" achievement? :( 02:09:49 I hope they don't add that, it'll make things even worse 02:10:04 also, http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ :) 02:11:39 Asztal_: that code's nonportable 02:11:41 I want a frost pist. 02:11:55 I wrote a fixed version, that works in both C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL 02:30:51 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 03:11:25 by the way, I was reading the report on voting machine security flaws that the state of Ohio commissioned 03:11:30 some of it's really ridiculous 03:11:50 the flaws, I mean, not the report itself 03:13:05 they managed an all-new sort of buffer overflow I've never seen before: 03:13:07 287 TCHAR name; 03:13:08 288 _stprintf(&name, _T("\\Storage Card\\%s"), findData.cFileName); 03:13:24 (TCHAR's like char, it's a single-character type) 03:14:55 impressive 03:15:15 that code is even worse than gets 03:15:23 at least there are circumstances under which gets doesn't overflow... 03:15:53 (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...) 03:16:38 also, it seems that that 0x0102030405060708 is accepted as the password on one type of machine they make, even if the password's been changed 03:28:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:31:53 argh, the science subreddit is _still_ in AF mode 03:32:52 Is CADIE dead, or is she just elsewhere? The video suggests dead, but the blog says elsewhere 03:33:25 http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ still works 03:35:28 * Sgeo tried to make language accept INTERCAL 03:35:33 The page just refreshed 03:36:01 yep, it's stopped working 03:36:25 You mean when you put INTERCAL in? 03:36:54 no, altogether 03:36:58 once April 1 ended 03:37:05 you can enter queries but don't get replies 03:38:11 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 03:38:20 ow! 03:38:21 why? 03:38:26 works fine for me 03:40:29 ah yes, working again 03:40:38 with yet another typically INTERCAL-related response 03:41:13 03:41:15 oops 03:41:25 bsmntbombdood: how succinct 03:43:09 Heh. Tried to add an Intercal-choice in the combo-box, but when I pressed "Ask CADIE", the page just refreshed and the form was reset. 03:44:24 MizardX's nick reminds me of something else 03:44:47 bsmntbombdood, it reminds me of some Runescape quest 03:44:51 oh, who was that girl who hung out in here? 03:44:59 liked manga, slept like 2 hours per night 03:45:06 razorX, aka sukoshi 03:45:29 ah, yes 03:57:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:11:14 http://ytmnd.com/april/hehe_mix.swf 04:13:48 Proof that materials don't mean anything: there are stone glasses, and there are glass stones. 04:13:55 Though both are pretty weird. 04:15:26 I mean, you *could* make glasses out of stone. 04:31:54 -!- mmorrow has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:45:37 there're also marble stones and stone marbles, which is a little less obvious than it sounds at first 04:46:32 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:49:09 d 04:49:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: topic ain't done 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also, the Google cache of it isn't showing, nor is the Yahoo cache, but I saved a copy from the live.com cache, of all places 08:42:45 first time ever that live.com has been remotely useful 08:43:20 I had the CADIE source already, luckily 08:52:35 ais523, your ick repo should be up again 08:52:41 ah, thanks 08:52:47 I'll push right away 08:53:21 and pushed 08:53:32 how are your download logs for C-INTERCAL? 08:53:41 if it's inconvenient to get at them, don't worry 08:53:53 I'm just mildly curious as to how popular it is 08:55:31 a sec 08:56:06 first: almost all from http://ipv4gate.sixxs.net 08:56:15 not at all surprising 08:57:01 then there is me, and one other persomn 08:57:03 person* 08:57:09 with other ipv6 ips 08:57:14 how many accesses altogether? 08:57:29 /usr/www/data/log $ wc -l thttpd_log 08:57:30 22 thttpd_log 08:57:51 not bad for just a few hours after release 08:57:55 but most are for favicon.ico 08:57:56 .. 08:58:02 heh 08:58:02 (which is 404) 08:58:12 the old MSIE 404 favicon.ico bug strikes again 08:58:16 $ grep ick thttpd_log | wc -l 08:58:16 2 08:58:17 I think it's been fixed nowadays 08:58:21 ais523, ? 08:58:34 what 404 bug? 08:58:43 AnMaster: in older versions of IE, if favicon.ico's a 404, it ends up pinging it every time you access a page on the website 08:59:30 both ick downloads are from that other person with native ipv6 btw 08:59:36 ah, aha 08:59:36 (or tunnel, I don't know) 08:59:39 I wonder who it was? 09:00:32 * AnMaster looks in whois (which is usually quite correct for ipv6 IME) 09:00:45 organisation: ORG-OB3-RIPE 09:00:45 org-name: LeaseWeb B.V. 09:01:06 hmm... not all that useful 09:01:14 although knowing RIPE narrows it down to one continent 09:01:39 the contact addresses are both in Amsterdam 09:01:51 probably Joris, then 09:02:03 Your logs should now have another native-IPv6 entry. 09:02:15 only Dutch INTERCALer I know, and he's pretty active in terms of submitting patches 09:02:54 2607:f0d0:3001:36::dead:baba, a rather curious address. 09:03:04 fizzie, not my choice *shrug* 09:03:08 fizzie: is that yours? 09:03:22 or are you somehow reading AnMaster's logs? 09:03:22 ais523: No, it's that lepton.kuonet-ng.org. 09:03:26 ais523, it is that of the vps. The person who runs it was a joker. 09:03:26 oh 09:03:31 I presume 09:03:41 anyway 09:04:05 My hit in the logs should be from 2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:fee4:a593 I presume. 09:04:33 * ais523 wonders if anyone has memorized their own IPv6 address 09:04:45 the proxy I used to use at the University was 147.188.147.123 09:04:55 fizzie, no I don't have another native one? 09:04:57 but nowadays I normally use wireless, so I show up elsewhere 09:05:04 fizzie, I had a new one from that one in Amsterdam though 09:05:05 huh 09:05:23 wait no 09:05:26 I misread 09:07:14 ais523, I remember mine. It is ::1 09:07:16 ;P 09:07:27 (no I don't remember my full one) 09:09:05 A /64 prefix is relatively easy to remember, so if you put something at prefix::1, that's not too bad either. I used to remember my 6bone prefix. I don't remember this current one, though. 09:09:46 it's somewhat interesting that IPv6 was initially only used to create long hostmasks that spelt out words on IRC 09:11:06 it's odd that SixXS handed out a /48 when you requested a subnet. Presumably it is related to making routing simpler? 09:11:21 yep, pretty much 09:11:39 using lots of subnets of the same size makes routing tables smaller and simpler 09:11:53 heh 09:11:58 Yes, and they give you a /48 so that you can do some subnetting of your own. 09:12:02 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:12:04 also, a /48 is amazingly large 09:12:11 a /64 would be the usual size for IPv6 09:12:11 fizzie, can't you subnet at /96 or such? 09:12:19 anything smaller than that annoys the routers 09:12:24 You can't really make smaller nets than /64. 09:12:29 fizzie, why? 09:12:35 so if you want to subnet something, it should be bigger than /64 09:12:43 The address format specifies that the last 64 bits is the node ID. 09:12:47 ah 09:13:03 And all those stateless-autoconfig things generate EUI-64 format addresses, too, which need a 64-bit network. 09:13:13 mhm 09:13:19 I've seen a tunnel provider handing out /60s, though, which means you have 16 subnets to play with. 09:13:29 fizzie, heh 09:14:08 And if you configure things manually, at least Linux is completely happy to use smaller-than-/64-networks, it's just not pedantically-speaking correct. 09:14:11 for a /48 you would have 65536 subnets right? 09:14:23 Yes. 09:14:26 yep 09:14:28 assuming 2 16^p is the correct way to calculate it 09:14:45 well, probably 65534 in practice 09:14:50 ais523, oh? 09:14:52 because IIRC max and min addresses have special meanings 09:14:54 ah 09:14:55 or is that only IPv4? 09:15:00 no idea 09:15:25 It's max and min addresses in a network, you can still use things like 192.168.0.5, even though there's that 0 byte in there. 09:15:59 well, yes 09:16:20 but would 192.168.0.0 be the min address of 129.168.0.0/16 or 129.1268.0.0/24? 09:16:23 So you can just as well use the 2001:1234:1234:0::/64 subnet. 09:16:31 *129.168.0.0/24 09:17:00 Obviously it's the min address of both, and it depends on configured netmasks and such what it means. 09:17:28 what does the min address mean then? 09:17:37 max is multicast or something isn't it? 09:17:46 It's traditionally "the address of the network, not a host in it". 09:17:54 While all-bits-one is the broadcast address, yes. 09:18:01 ah 09:18:15 in theory, sending a packet to 255.255.255.255 sends it to the entire Internet 09:18:19 what about multicast then? Isn't that "broadcast, to some hosts" 09:18:21 in practice, any sane router will drop it 09:18:29 Multicast uses a separate range of addresses. 09:18:35 To identify multicast groups. 09:18:45 fizzie, mhm and how do you mark such groups? 09:19:11 What do you mean, exactly? 09:19:25 fizzie, no idea. I hate networking 09:19:27 ;P 09:19:55 " To identify multicast groups." <-- well, how do you identify if a computer is in a group or not 09:20:10 There's the IGMP protocol for that. 09:20:16 Does group-registration and such. 09:20:19 IGMP or ICMP? 09:20:22 IGMP. 09:20:24 mhm 09:21:54 Although in IPv6 the multicast stuff has been taken in ICMPv6. As was ARP. 09:22:30 All IPv6 multicast addresses are in the ff00::/8 block, while the IPv4 range goes from 224.0.0.0-239.255.255.255. 09:23:03 I guess that's 224.0.0.0/4 if I count the bits right. 09:23:10 mhm 09:23:44 fe80:: is "link local" or something like that right? But what is the use of it? 09:25:04 Well, for link-local purposes. Like router-discovery and such, I think those tend to use the link-local addresses at some point. 09:25:26 fizzie, this ipv6 over facebook thing hm... the page *is* still there http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=59502659200 ... 09:25:42 well, naturally 09:25:49 Sure, and if the statistics are correct, the app has been there for a while. 09:25:54 it's one of those April Fool's RFCs which probably actually works, just is insane 09:25:56 heh 09:26:01 fizzie: they were testing it before releasing the RFCs 09:26:03 interesting 09:26:26 There's also the fec0::/10 prefix for "site-local" v6 addresses, presumably for rather similar use than the current private-use non-routable IPv4 addresses. 09:27:12 hm 09:27:24 http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=59502659200&topic=6840 <--- ? 09:28:06 bbl 10:04:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:14:08 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 10:15:40 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 10:16:51 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 10:17:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:21:30 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 10:21:42 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 10:25:15 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:34:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:50:11 back 13:27:10 btw wikipedia lists http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513 too as a joke rfc this year (yes it lists the facebook one too) 14:33:15 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:34:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:39:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:17:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:17:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:45:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:56:27 -!- jix has joined. 16:01:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:10:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:27:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to FireFly-. 16:27:15 -!- FireFly- has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:36:14 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:41:17 anyone know an ipv6 isp in uk? 16:44:23 http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&country=gb 16:44:56 Bogons or Goscomb! 16:44:58 Great names. 16:45:50 * oerjan expects the spanish vogons 16:46:05 I have no idea how comprehensive or accurate that list is; I know one (1) ISP in Finland who does native IPv6 to customers, and that's Nebula, and coincidentally it's also the only thing listed under the Finnish flag there. 16:46:36 fizzie: and you're on nebula? 16:46:41 Well, yes. 16:47:03 anyway, these uk isps seem very, very obscure 16:47:05 Nebula were polite enough to point the reverse-DNS zone for the /64 they've assigned to me to any DNS server I wanted; that's some good service. The network in the student apartments of my university also does native IPv6, but there are no reverse-DNS entries there. 16:47:10 How many IP addresses? 16:47:10 Normally a company would received 1208925819614629174706176 addresses to cover up to 65536 sites. 16:47:14 that's rather gung-ho 16:47:35 fizzie: nice; Orange are in the business of assraping their customers with restrictions 16:48:02 thing that irritates me: 16:48:08 calling hosting services isps 16:48:11 yes, it's technically correct 16:48:13 no norway :/ 16:48:14 no it is not helpful! 16:48:36 Broadband services from Andrews & Arnold Ltd are aimed at the technical and professional customer. We cater for home users right up to large corporate users. Most of our customers are reasonably technical or purchase via an IT consultant/dealer. The services we offer are not the fast food of broadband - we have a range of specialist options including blocks of IP addresses at no extra cost, reverse DNS delegation, IPv6 services, bonded lines with fast fa 16:48:38 llback, and much more. We also pride ourselves in having technically competent support staff based in our UK offices. 16:48:41 yarr, this sounds hot 16:48:44 which is strange since norway was listed in a wp article as having among the top relative penetrators 16:48:57 Our Professional service starts from as little as £20.50 pcm† (£17.83+VAT) including 2GB peak download allowance, so can easily be used by more demanding home users. Professional customers can pick a tariff that matches their needs. The professional service includes a free ADSL2+ ethernet router, fixed IP address blocks, IPv6, a UK domain, web space, and IMAP email (with spam and virus checking). 16:49:01 hrm 16:49:06 well 2gb download allowance is shite 16:49:11 and I don't need the domain/webspace/email 16:49:23 Our broadband services are provided using ADSL2+ were possible which allows up to 24Mb/s downlink and up to around 1Mb/s uplink. When not possible we provide using ADSL1 which allows up to 8.128Mb/s downlink and up to 448Kb/s uplink (832Kb/s with the premium option). These speeds are the maximum line rate and depend on the line legth and quality. The availability checker can give an indication of likely downlink speed. We upgrade ADSL1 lines to ADSL2+ wh 16:49:25 en possible as part of the 21st Century Network upgrade. Details 16:49:27 k, that's fine 16:49:40 okay, so if only there wasn't a 2gb download allowance that'd be awesome 16:49:56 Peak period download per month. 16:49:56 Peak period is 9am-6pm Mon-Fri. 16:49:57 wut 16:50:01 Off Peak allowance100GB 16:50:01 +100GB steps 16:50:04 well that's stupid 16:50:14 so 9am-6pm i'm only allowed to d/l 2gb. 16:50:19 wonderful 16:50:24 All other times except night (2am-6am) which is unmetered. 16:50:27 this is kind of fucked up 16:50:55 i mean, it has everything, i just wish it didn't have the stupid bw limit 16:51:37 "A byte is 8 bits of data which is normally one character. A gigabyte or GB is 1,000,000,000 bytes (not to be confused with a Gibibyte or GiB which is 1,073,741,824 bytes)" 16:51:43 you're full of shit, andrews & arnold. 16:51:58 Well, technically, it's correct 16:52:04 It's just that no one uses gibi 16:52:12 it's a ripoff :P 16:52:35 Gibibibibii! Sounds like a pokey-mon or something. 16:52:47 but seriously they give you a decent router and ipv6 and whatnot and the speed looks great 16:52:50 with a terrifying gibibite 16:52:56 but 2gb peak allowance? 16:53:03 that's like... giving you a rocket and telling you to only fly at 3mph 16:53:23 oerjan : :D 16:53:26 http://www.bogons.net/ 16:53:35 I SHALL LOOK UP THE "BOGONS" 16:53:41 i suspect pokemons don't bite though, would not be family friendly 16:54:21 Some do, I think 16:54:26 oerjan: err, they knock each other out and seriously injure them with massive electric attacks and shit 16:54:29 I think biting is pretty tame 16:54:33 But it's been... ten years since I played 16:54:38 So I may be wrong 16:54:40 oh you mean the game 16:54:41 well yea 16:54:45 some have a bite attack 16:54:49 I was talking about the shitty show 16:54:51 "* Static IP address if required " 16:54:53 <3 16:55:07 "* Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL " 16:55:08 <3 16:55:14 "* No enforced transfer cap (subject to reasonable usage) " 16:55:17 * ehird netgasm 16:55:20 I seem to recall biting in the movie 16:55:35 ok, bogons sounds fuckin' awesome 16:55:45 £35/mo 16:56:11 ehird: just beware of the clause where they reserve the right to blow up the earth for their information superhighway 16:56:19 http://www.enta.net/Customer_Products/Data_&_Connectivity_Products/Broadband/ ← yawn, no thx 16:57:09 Do you restrict access to any Bit torrents/news sites? 16:57:10 IDNet do not restrict access to any sites or ports etc. 16:57:23 the fact that they explicitly state that is nice 16:57:40 I might email the v^Hbogons to ask if they filterz 16:58:36 hokay, so it's 16:58:40 idnet home supermax http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/broadband/ 16:58:49 vs bogons adsl http://www.bogons.net/ 16:58:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:59:50 random opinions welcome, I'd like to escape this shithole of an esp 16:59:51 isp 17:17:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("My esp is rather lousy, too"). 17:26:21 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:32:18 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 17:38:09 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:43:55 http://redsnake.me/ 17:52:38 Bogons vs idnet is looking good right now. 18:04:15 Did you know that your Browser is buggy: it can't parse comments correctly. --> 18:04:17 * ehird rolleyes 18:37:04 ERROR 18:37:49 SGML comments are weird. 18:39:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:39:16 the ERROR part may actually be commented, depending on whether or not you live in 1999 or 2005 or elsewhen 18:48:46 PRETEND TO SWIM WHY DON'T YOU JIM 18:59:52 -!- tombom has joined. 19:23:59 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 19:31:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:33:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:31:09 wow 20:31:11 I think I just solved syntax. 20:31:32 -!- olsner has joined. 20:35:35 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 20:42:16 The syntax of what? 20:42:47 syntax. 21:03:14 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 21:09:41 -!- nooga has joined. 21:10:03 much 21:12:08 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:45:29 croc 22:00:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:18:59 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:20:16 fizzie: Mr ip wizard, "/29 or /30" will mean ipv4 rite? 22:21:04 Most likely, yes. Those are pretty small blocks. 22:21:31 Yar. I'm deciding between http://bogons.net/ and http://idnet.net/, both of which look more or less perfect. 22:22:09 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:22:10 Especially since generally the all-bits-0 and all-bits-1 nodes are kept as the network address and the broadcast address, respectively, so a /30 would have just two usable addresses. 22:22:17 :-D 22:22:56 (Enta) IPStream Max (up to 8M)100kbps448kbps£60.00£35.00 22:23:03 That 100kbps second is the download spede column. 22:23:07 Yet it says up to 8M? 22:23:07 wut 22:23:51 I think our student housing network had a costs-a-bit add-on service to get your own non-DHCP-allocated /29 (so six hosts) block. 22:24:19 Well, they do have a /16 of their own. 22:24:35 Bogons give you a static ipv6 address with yer own reverse dns so that's just fiiine by m 22:24:35 e 22:24:37 (Assuming you're referring to TKY.) 22:24:50 Deewiant: You mean TKY? The old Trinet block at least was just a /20. 22:24:52 tky? 22:25:13 I don't really know about the new one. TKK has a /16 block of its own. 22:25:38 ehird: The student union. Acronym of the finnish name. 22:25:40 I got a personal reply from Bogons with techy details, which was nice. Delivered via RT too. 22:25:43 82.130.0.0/18 22:25:46 Evidently. 22:25:55 I misremembered then. 22:26:16 I had a map somewhere... 22:26:22 say, about that dead:baba ipv6 address - is there liek a service to get a custom one you specify or sth? 22:26:24 like license plates 22:26:42 If you have your own network, you can number the nodes any way you like. 22:27:04 Oh. 22:27:06 Of course. 22:27:18 Although the stateless autoconfig stuff uses automatically generated addresses that are -ff:fe-. 22:27:23 The good ol' I Have Gratuitous Amounts Of Money option. 22:28:03 Question. 22:28:09 Why don't OSes come with a dns resolver? 22:28:14 I don't see why it's done remotely. 22:29:09 Might be to cut down traffic a bit, so that just the ISP's ns has to wonder where google.com is. 22:30:05 fizzie: Well, sure, but it seems like it'd be much, much faster. 22:30:21 I doubt it'd be hard to handle the traffic considering how powerful networks are nowadays 22:30:41 The root servers would have a lot more work to do; I think they have quite a lot as-it-is. 22:30:53 * ehird installs djbdns. 22:31:05 fizzie: i wonder what the root servers run on 22:31:10 probably a mega-optimized bsd 22:31:21 Not sure about speeds, either, since now you can just ask a very nearby server, and it probably knows the answers already, since everyone else's asking about the same things; you don't have to start from the root. 22:31:35 fizzie: after using it a while it should be a lot faster, no? 22:31:41 since cache retrieval would be instant 22:32:11 Well, yes, caching would be a good idea. I have my local BIND configured so that it forwards all queries to the ISP's server if it doesn't know the answer offhand. 22:32:19 http://www.root-servers.org/ Poor greenland. 22:32:26 Deewiant: Oh, I foundeded the (IPv4) map: http://zem.fi/trinet/trinetmap.html 22:32:29 It's already fairly instant 22:32:49 dig reports around 7 milliseconds on average 22:33:09 fizzie: :-) 22:33:32 Lot of addresses for those houses 22:33:36 Deewiant: That might be obsoleted already a bit, since I did that back when they updated the network. They might have changed stuff. 22:33:48 "2. As root, create UNIX accounts named Gdnscache and Gdnslog. " 22:33:54 oh fuck, time for djb to lecture me about how to run a fuckin' unix system 22:33:58 fuck you. 22:34:34 * ehird tries to use local djbdns 22:34:59 Hmm, root lookups are quite slow aren't they? 22:35:03 As in 30 seconds and still going. 22:35:21 oh, timeout. 22:35:26 Guess I fucked up. 22:35:35 Dnsmasq is probably the cheapest choice if you want a caching-only local DNS thing. (Although it comes integrated with a DHCP server, which might be pretty useless.) 22:36:10 I think I've seen dnsmasq used in some of those Linux-based routery devices too. 22:36:12 "8. Set up a public web page saying that your DNS cache is powered by djbdns, so that a Google search for powered djbdns will find your page in a few months. These public statements will encourage other people to deploy djbdns, provide djbdns support services, and develop djbdns-related tools. Please also consider making a donation to the Bernstein Writing Fund." 22:36:18 Go fuck yourself, bernstein 22:36:34 What's wrong with asking people to help? 22:36:43 You're awfully hostile 22:36:49 Deewiant: I just like insulting Bernstein because he's pretentious 22:36:57 Oh 22:37:10 "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN 22:37:14 :D 22:38:07 Give me an obscure domain to lookup, I want something that takes longer than 5ms 22:38:17 hotgoatporn.com 22:38:23 10 msec 22:38:24 Deewiant: eso-std.org. 22:38:31 Oo, 160 msec 22:38:37 That's domain squatters for you 22:38:40 And now it's cached :-/ 22:38:43 Deewiant: agoranomic.org 22:38:54 157 22:38:56 ellipsis.cx 22:39:00 I wonder if anything breaks 200 22:39:06 170 22:39:12 Erm. 22:39:17 Deewiant: gnaa.us 22:39:22 esolangs.org was 207 22:39:32 Ooh, that one was 330 22:39:42 Are you gay? Are you a nigger? etc. 22:40:14 2ch.org wins for now: 362 22:40:38 Deewiant: what about 2ch.net 22:40:44 203 22:40:44 in japan everything is slow. 22:40:56 Well, it's far away, mostly. 22:41:05 I'm trying to think of something .cn and failing 22:41:12 foo.cn: 748 22:41:13 propaganda.cn 22:41:16 Wow 22:41:20 Almost a second 22:41:26 propaganda.cn: 613 22:41:55 Is India slower or faster, I wonder 22:42:05 I don't even know its TLD 22:42:07 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:42:15 .in? 22:42:30 .in 22:42:37 google.in took 200 22:42:47 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 22:42:58 foo.in was below 100, bar.in got no answer and took 850 22:43:04 If you're curious, you can often "dig @server -c ch -t txt version.bind" to find out what a DNS server's running; often even if it's not BIND. Although a lot of people do disable that feature, too. 22:43:08 baz.in exists though 22:43:29 version.bind.0CHTXT"This space intentionally left blank" 22:43:49 Ooh, what's this 22:43:50 version.bind.0CHTXT"NSD 2.3.7" 22:43:59 That's the K root server 22:44:14 Hadn't heard of that one 22:44:39 % sudo svstat /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache 22:44:39 /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache: up (pid 97416) 15 seconds 22:44:41 J runs VGRS4 22:44:41 yay 22:44:49 Deewiant: Any root servers running djbdns? 22:44:53 Guess not 22:44:58 "contact info@netnod.se" 22:45:08 Maybe one of these sneaky ones :-P 22:45:17 they're so ashamed 22:45:30 % dnsq a www.aol.com 127.0.0.1 22:45:33 Let's see if it works this time 22:45:45 Dayum this is slow. 22:45:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:46:04 ok, it doesn't seem to be _doing_ anything 22:46:41 ' and if your DHCP client cannot be configured to discard external DNS cache information' 22:46:43 Hm. 22:46:45 Most appear to run bind (9.2 through 9.4), two NSD (2.3.7 and 3.0.5), one VGRS4 22:47:20 One blank, one times out for that request, one with that email address, one "intentionally left blank" 22:47:26 1 www.aol.com: 22:47:26 timed out 22:47:27 Dammit 22:48:53 I wouldn't be too surprised if djbdns came with the version info disabled by default. 22:49:25 How irritating, I wonder how to ix this 22:50:31 It's a funny query; the "-c ch" means dns record class Chaos, for Chaosnet; normally just about any request is for class IN (Internet). 22:51:22 fizzie: what's a funny query? 22:51:31 The version.bind. one. 22:51:39 ah. 22:52:18 After all, they can't really use an Internet DNS name of "version.bind", I'm sure we'll end up with a .bind TLD sooner or later. Using a Chaosnet name is rather cleverness. 22:53:33 How did you set up your local bind, fizzie? 22:53:40 Wanna figure out what I did wrong. 22:55:20 Well, mostly I just have: acl "local" { local; networks; here; }; ... options { ... listen-on { all; private; IPv4; addrs; }; allow-query { "local"; } recursion yes; forwarders { isp's; dns; server; ips; }; ... }; -- and that's about it. 22:55:32 fizzie: I didn't mean how you set up the bind in particular 22:55:37 I meant how did you then test it 22:55:44 Because I'm just getting timeouts 22:56:33 Can you do something like "dig @ns.google.com a google.com" and get results on the box you're running the name server on? 22:56:53 If not, it might be that your friendly ISP is filtering outgoing DNS that's not directed to their nameserver. :p 22:57:19 That works. 22:57:28 So my ISP is sane in that respect. 22:57:42 Then % dig @127.0.0.1 a google.com... and... silence. 22:57:52 ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached 22:58:12 ehird, why are you setting up a local bind? 22:58:19 AnMaster: a local djbdns. 22:58:21 and because I want to. 22:58:25 oh? 22:58:32 You said "too much work" and such before 22:58:35 Yes, it is. 22:58:41 I do things that require too much work when I am bored. 22:58:45 ah 22:58:54 ehird, djbdns as forwarding? 22:58:56 err ok 22:58:57 That's rather strange. Maybe you could "netstat -nlp" or something to check whether your djbdns is actually listening? 22:59:04 AnMaster: djbdns's dnscache server 22:59:16 ehird, I would use dnsmasq for that. Or bind. 22:59:20 fizzie: what would the protocol name be? 22:59:24 AnMaster: what's wrong with using dnscache? 22:59:28 djbdns for authoritative ones 22:59:30 UDP, port 53. 22:59:37 ehird, probably nothing 22:59:59 fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat? 23:00:02 just dnsmasq almost works out of box (read through a config and edit an option or two, start daemon 23:00:05 ) 23:00:06 The /etc/services name here is "domain". 23:00:22 ehird: Of course if this is OS X netstat, it'll have a different syntax. 23:00:23 fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat? <-- :D 23:00:29 fizzie: Seems so. 23:00:31 well 23:00:34 Usage:netstat [-AaLlnW] [-f address_family | -p protocol] 23:00:34 netstat [-gilns] [-f address_family] 23:00:36 sockstat on *bsd 23:00:41 tends to be more useful 23:00:43 Well, I don't see why that wouldn't work. 23:00:48 I could just nmap myself. :-D 23:00:51 ehird, sockstat -4ln 23:00:54 or something 23:00:54 mabe 23:00:56 maybe* 23:00:59 worth trying 23:01:00 Everyone's netstat seems to be rather different. Just "netstat -nl" is probably enough. 23:01:02 no command, AnMaster 23:01:19 Discovered open port 53/tcp on 127.0.0.1 23:01:21 — nmap 23:01:24 PORT STATE SERVICE 23:01:24 53/tcp open domain 23:01:31 ehird, oh? It is bshish though, so I thought it would make sense on OS X 23:01:32 The "-nlp" was for Linux's netstat, for which "-p" means "show PID and program name for whatever's there". 23:02:03 * ehird does -sV 23:02:21 Anyway, that sure sounds like it's listening; strange that it doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe start it with enough debugging and verbosity flags, then. 23:02:56 Initiating Service scan at 23:02 23:02:56 Scanning 2 services on localhost (127.0.0.1) 23:02:57 Lah lah lah. 23:03:15 fizzie: Maybe it's talking to me but it can't find anything. 23:04:03 Well, that's possible, of course. Although since you do DNS queries yourself, I see no reason why dnscache couldn't. 23:04:22 Stats: 0:01:02 elapsed; 0 hosts completed (1 up), 1 undergoing Service Scan 23:04:22 Service scan Timing: About 50.00% done; ETC: 23:03 (0:00:11 remaining) 23:04:25 Something is horribly wrong here. 23:04:36 PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION 23:04:37 53/tcp open domain? 23:04:39 Iiiinteresting. 23:04:41 It's antisocial. 23:05:05 % telnet 127.0.0.1 53 23:05:05 Trying 127.0.0.1... 23:05:06 Connected to localhost. 23:05:08 Escape character is '^]'. 23:05:10 hello how are you 23:05:17 I might need to learn dns. 23:05:33 I'm sure 'look up google.com' can't be hard. 23:05:41 Oh wait. 23:05:43 telnet is tcp. 23:05:46 Durr. 23:05:51 Well, you can talk DNS over TCP too. 23:05:54 True. 23:05:58 Well, no I can't :-) 23:06:01 Normally it's done only for zone transfers, though. 23:06:17 I wonder if they're still doing that DNS-based DDOSing that's been very popular lately. At least my DROP rule for that has seen 298K packets since I last reloaded the iptables rules. 23:07:26 fizzie, zone transfers in djbdns are different iirc 23:07:35 djb made it after all 23:07:48 Yes, I seem to recall too that it did something different. 23:07:53 rsync iirc 23:07:58 or maybe not 23:08:33 Anyone know how to speak DNS? 23:08:51 It's a rather binary protocol, not too comfortable to speak manually. 23:09:13 D'aw. 23:12:03 Well, I can connect. 23:12:05 Which is imporatnt. 23:12:07 important 23:12:22 With a normal program you could just run it with some sort of "don't daemonize, absurdly verbose output" command line options to see what's happening, but I have no idea how to do something like that to dnscache. 23:13:03 It uses djb's wacky daemon runner thing. 23:13:21 Yes. Well, there should be some sort of log file. Wanna bet it's empty? 23:14:05 It just says it started up. 23:14:09 Which I gathered. 23:14:30 Ooh! 23:14:36 % cat current 23:14:36 @4000000049d531bd380b501c starting 23:14:37 @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 tcpopen 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55 23:14:39 @4000000049d535b439c3b64c tcpclose 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55 connection reset 23:14:43 djbdns, you doofus. 23:14:46 I don't have ipv6. 23:15:08 * ehird checks dnscache/root/servers/@ 23:15:14 That looks like a ipv6-mapped ipv4-address, though; ::ffff:127.0.0.1, to be exact. 23:15:14 Hmm, it's just ipv4 addresses 23:15:19 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001? 23:15:32 fizzie: Oh. 23:15:33 ah yes 23:15:40 Right, it's just me. 23:15:42 Over telnet. 23:15:54 ehird, @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 is a timestamp 23:15:55 Okay, so we're having TCP acknowledgment. 23:15:57 no clue about format 23:16:10 Can you make dig, uh, 23:16:11 use tcp? 23:16:15 Some dual-stacked systems do so that if you listen on the wildcard ipv6 socket, you get also ipv4 connections using that funky mapped format. 23:16:16 I guess so 23:16:44 It's a +tcp somewhere in the command line. 23:16:51 +vc also work 23:16:52 s 23:16:56 +[no]vc (TCP mode) 23:16:56 +[no]tcp (TCP mode, alternate syntax) 23:17:04 % dig @127.0.0.1 -4 +vc google.com 23:17:07 We have successory. 23:17:13 ;; Query time: 1103 msec 23:17:21 ;; Query time: 1532 msec 23:17:25 It is the slow at first. 23:17:39 OK, it's tcp vs udp. 23:17:47 So something's up with udp port 56. 23:17:53 The question is, what. 23:18:01 53. 23:18:09 Whatever mon. 23:18:22 This is really odd. 23:18:28 I wonder what's up with it. 23:18:32 Yes. Your system is the odd. 23:19:25 Yes, Linux is wooing me atm. 23:19:59 Hm, that DNS-DDOS doesn't seem *so* popular any more; I reset those counters more than 15 minutes ago, and haven't seen a single incoming packet. 23:20:30 I'm not too sure I like this 100msec initial lookup thing. 23:20:51 Heh, my router doesn't seem to do tcpy dns. 23:20:54 % dig +vc en.wikipedia.org [hang] 23:21:26 fizzie: Got an obscure domoniker? 23:26:00 Guess not. 23:26:16 Anyhooways, it is annoying having a choice between two equals,. 23:32:24 g 23:44:41 night 23:45:08 Wow: 23:45:09 "Brandon Butterworth is a Principal Technologist in the BBC's research and development team and the man who first registered the bbc.co.uk domain" 23:45:21 That's the guy that responded to the question I asked bogons.net 23:45:26 Too cool! 23:45:43 Okänd värddator bogons.net 23:45:44 ? 23:45:50 (unknown host) 23:46:02 AnMaster: http://www.bogons.net/ resolves for me. 23:46:12 Oh. 23:46:15 bogons.net doesn't resolve 23:46:16 just www. 23:46:18 fail 23:46:24 AnMaster: no, it'll be how they've set up their servers 23:46:27 since they're an isp 23:46:29 a separate webserver 23:46:33 physical 23:46:42 ehird, even so... 23:46:43 it's annoying but understandable 23:46:56 ehird, why have it not resolve 23:47:03 because it didn't cross their minds? 23:47:04 they could do a CNAME or A record 23:47:06 anyway they're one of the isps i'm considering 23:47:18 they do ipv6, don't have bandwidth limits, don't shape traffic 23:47:22 and give you a static ip for free 23:47:41 wow 23:47:42 I asked whether they shaped traffic and got a technical response from the guy who first registered the BBC's domain. 23:47:46 So that is pretty awesome. 23:47:51 ehird, xs4all under cover? 23:47:57 AnMaster: heh 23:48:22 "We have over 15 years experience of the Internet - dating from the start of the Internet in the UK in 1989. If you feel that your clue level isn't quite high enough to do-it-yourself yet," 23:48:23 hm 23:48:26 they should update that 23:48:31 AnMaster: ? 23:48:31 that's 20 by now 23:48:34 heh 23:49:05 the other isp i'm considering is http://www.idnet.net/, but I'm leaning more to bogons now for the techness and smallness. 23:49:19 AnMaster: are you sure xs4all does ipv6? 23:49:26 I suppose they might, I'm just not aware of it 23:49:53 ehird, well they do newszilla6.xs4all.nl (free for sixxs customers too!) 23:50:03 somehow I then doubt they don't do ipv6 elsewhere... 23:50:05 newszilla? 23:50:24 I wonder if bogons provides usenet 23:51:46 I guess probably 23:51:53 AnMaster: heh, bogons is hard to google 23:51:56 it's an internet-related term 23:52:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogon_filtering 23:52:25 I know it is 23:52:30 I didn't 23:52:47 hmm 23:52:56 they charge £10 more a month for 800Kbps upload 23:52:58 vs 400Kbps 23:53:03 Surely it can't be that different? 23:54:05 I like how bogons don't bundle a shitrouter though 23:54:10 I can get a linksys and put openwrt on it 23:54:44 ehird, I'd prefer if they bundled a Cisco for those £10 23:54:45 ;P 23:54:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:54:55 why cisco? 23:55:00 I've always heard recommendations for linksys 23:55:21 ehird, high end? More expensive? 23:55:29 you sure? 23:55:32 cisco owns linksys 23:55:37 ehird, not totally no 23:55:41 heh 23:55:44 I didn't know that 23:55:47 linksys.com redirects to http://www.linksysbycisco.com/ 23:55:50 anyway I'd use openbsd still 23:55:55 huh? 23:55:58 on a router? 23:56:12 That'd be a pain to get working... vs something like openwrt 23:56:13 ehird, my router. A pentium 3, running openbsd 23:56:20 AnMaster: That's not a "router". 23:56:20 2* 23:56:25 :-P 23:56:26 ehird, yes, it does NAT 23:56:30 and all that 23:56:36 Well that's silly 23:56:40 ehird, I have a switch 23:56:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:56:42 too 23:56:44 behind it 23:56:54 er... wait 23:56:58 ehird, why is it silly? 23:56:58 how do you plug it into the phoneline? 23:57:05 I don't recall what cable it is, I'll go check 23:57:16 switch - openbsd router - adsl modem - phone 23:57:16 Wait, it's just ethernet isn't it? 23:57:30 AnMaster: most modern routers have an adsl modem built in 23:57:35 yes ethernet all the way except modem-phone which is special cable 23:57:53 ehird, my adsl modem doesn't 23:57:54 meh 23:58:09 http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/Routers ← I like how they're all oh-so-stylish up to the WAP54G, when they turn into megauglys. 23:59:36 http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/WRT54GL 23:59:38 Linux Wireless 23:59:41 Compatibility: two windows logos 23:59:45 hur hur hur 23:59:53 Minimum Requirements 23:59:53 Internet Explorer 6.0 or Firefox 1.0 or Higher for Web-based coniguration 23:59:55 CD-ROM Drive 23:59:57 Windows 2000, XP, or Vista 23:59:59 Network Adapteror Wireless Network Adapter 2009-04-03: 00:00:01 HUR HUR HU 00:00:03 R 00:00:33 BEN HUR 00:02:02 AnMaster: so, how surprising is it on the scale of 1 to 10 that i'm considering switching to pcs and ENTERPRISE LUNIX OPERATING SYSTEM(TM) 00:02:11 I'm just trying to weigh up my remaining sanity 00:02:14 hm 00:02:46 ehird, is fractional values allowed? 00:02:54 AnMaster: s/is/are/; yes. 00:02:59 ah yes 00:03:03 too late indeed 00:03:27 well, 8.43182 or so. +/-1.127825 00:03:35 I was expecting 11.9 00:03:46 ☺ 00:04:00 "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN 00:04:14 i think that's a bit much just to install djbdns 00:04:18 :-D 00:04:22 ehird, so are you considering it? 00:04:25 AnMaster: yes. 00:04:45 if i'm getting an isp that lets me do what i want served via a router that lets me do what I want that runs on an OS that lets me do what I want... 00:04:50 well, I guess my computer should let me do what I want too. 00:04:52 unless it comes with a world domination feature 00:05:07 ehird, Yes. Feel the power of the dark side... Err wrong one... Come back to the light side of Linux? 00:05:32 AnMaster: Pretty much the only thing making me hang on to OS X is the typography. 00:05:41 I've been tweaking Ubuntu's for days in a VM and I'm still not satisfied. :D 00:06:03 ehird, well personally I'd want ColorSync about 3-5 times per month 00:06:07 but meh 00:06:12 Maybe I'll get a CRT; they antialias by default (by blurring everything to hell)! 00:06:22 typography doesn't matter that much 00:06:25 I've never, ever used ColorSync AnMaster. Am I weird? 00:06:26 but color profiles... 00:06:28 Also, ooh boy don't say that. 00:06:34 Typography is paramount. 00:06:47 ehird, yes for you. And probably in other cases sure. 00:06:59 I just mean to me personally color syncing is more important 00:07:03 why? 00:07:22 ehird, because I have an expensive camera that included colour profiles on the CD? 00:07:25 Ah. 00:07:37 ehird, and I'm interested in photography and so on 00:07:42 Oh, the other thing keeping me is that, well, the hardware is sort of bulky. I'm not much a fan of bulky stuff. Some seem better though. 00:07:48 E.g., thinkpads & thinkcentres are pretty sleek. 00:08:04 ehird, you can run Linux on a mac though 00:08:24 propaganda.cn 00:08:27 AnMaster: Yes, but it's kind of missing the point, isn't it? And the h/w support isn't too good. 00:08:33 ehird, but I recommend a desktop that is 1-1.5 years old. Otherwise the hardware may be too new. 00:08:35 :P 00:08:37 AnMaster: I'm in the market for an upgrade. I can get it thousands cheaper if I buy a PC. 00:08:42 That's a major factor. 00:08:51 ehird: that sounds like a weird kind of meta-honesty 00:08:58 oerjan: wu 00:08:58 t 00:09:06 propaganda.cn 00:09:09 oh 00:09:09 ha 00:09:13 ehird, oh yes.. upgrades... Saw that video that made a joke of Apple's "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" one? 00:09:23 it was about upgrades 00:09:27 AnMaster: Which one? There's thousands. 00:09:29 of course the papacy used it in earnest, i think 00:09:50 ehird, PC got upgraded, Mac one got thrown out by next model. And that made the PC guy feel uneasy 00:09:55 http://system76.com/ ← These are sleek, too bad they only ship to the USA and canuks. 00:10:00 AnMaster: :-D 00:10:10 as in hit by next Mac model guy on the back of the head. 00:10:26 and they come with ubuntu installed 00:10:27 which is niiice 00:10:30 heh 00:11:18 ehird, btw about upgrades. Computer case, PSU and one of the harddrives are the only original parts in my computer. Oh and the keyboard too. 00:11:25 I just configured an "ideal megasystem" on system76; came out to £1,272 00:11:29 ehird, everything else have been replaced over the years 00:11:46 That's over two thousand pounds cheaper than the Mac Pro I was looking at. 00:11:59 http://www.bogons.net/ has a better design than http://www.idnet.net/ IMO 00:12:00 btw 00:12:06 Well, the mac pro was a newer processor and it was 8 cores insetead of 4, but then it was also lower ghz. 00:12:07 idnet is too flashy 00:12:13 AnMaster: hey, system76 comes with an ATI card... 00:12:17 yet they pre-install 64 bit ubuntu 00:12:20 ehird, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! 00:12:23 Guess they only sell ones with good d rivers? 00:12:26 "512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3 (DVI, VGA, S-Video, DVI to HDMI, DVI to VGA) " 00:12:42 ehird, well... I'd go nvidia or intel 00:12:48 depending on how important 3D is 00:12:49 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:13:04 AnMaster: these are really cheap, though, and come without windows cruft, and are sleek 00:13:08 AMD for CPU. Soundblaster Live! 5.1 from years ago for the sound card 00:13:12 so if the ati has good drivers, well, that's fine by me 00:13:59 it even comes with a 26" monitor because, you know, who cares about neck strain (i am very small) 00:14:04 (I just basically maxed it out) 00:14:20 Now to see if I can persuade them to ship to la UK 00:15:00 flash drive is included as part? 00:15:04 "portable flash drive" 00:15:08 Country: [Canada | United States] 00:15:11 Damn you system 76! 00:15:24 hum 00:15:26 I wonder if there's a service where, like, you ship to a holder place and they ship to you overseas. 00:15:28 For a cost, 00:15:30 . 00:15:35 That would be quite profitable, I imagine. 00:15:39 ehird, my dream desktop: $2,598.00 00:15:41 :/ 00:15:45 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 00:15:51 AnMaster: that's pretty cheap for a dream 00:15:56 what specs did you put on it? from where 00:15:57 ? 00:16:00 ehird, 8 GB RAM 00:16:07 I had 8gb ram on mine too 00:16:07 http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=82&osCsid=01a86245f6be36d74b29fa9819293eae 00:16:08 that one 00:16:14 2.83ghz quad core 00:16:16 maxed on most 00:16:23 2gb radeon 4870 X2 x16 thingy 00:16:30 AnMaster: that doesn't show your choices 00:16:38 ehird, well no idea how 00:16:46 maxed on all but flash and keyboard/mouse 00:16:49 where I selected no 00:16:53 ehird, anyway it is ATI 00:16:58 it isn't a true dream system 00:16:59 that's what i did, but I selected kb/mouse but I'm not sure why 00:17:13 AnMaster: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with ATI. If the drivers are OK for the ones they ship, what's the problem? 00:17:13 ehird, also why on earth would I buy it that way 00:17:18 I'd want another mobo 00:17:22 AnMaster: wut 00:17:28 bah propaganda.cn doesn't have a real website 00:18:04 ehird, one with two serial connectors to begin with 00:18:04 I'm really surprised how cheap system76 are 00:18:08 I mean 00:18:19 instead of none 00:18:24 A mac pro with the same specs, roughly, would cost £5,000 pounds or so 00:18:29 You can only get up to £1,600 or so with this 00:18:46 AnMaster: serial? srsly? 00:18:57 ehird, yes I use that still for some old hardware 00:19:06 http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=29 hey, if you buy a server you can get octo-core :-D 00:19:09 probably expensive as fuck 00:19:13 ehird: did you just pull that propaganda.cn domain out of your ass? 00:19:17 oerjan: yar 00:19:24 2 x Quad Core Intel Xeon E5450 3.00 GHz 1333 MHz FSB 12 MB L2 45 nm ( +$2,150.00 ) 00:19:25 Drool. 00:19:34 so .cn probably has squatters too, or something 00:19:52 i cannot manage to google it, anyhow 00:19:54 AnMaster: maxed out eland pro pedestal or rack: 00:19:55 Price: $8,725.00 00:19:59 also meh 00:20:00 :-D 00:20:02 it's all intel 00:20:05 I'd go for AMD 00:20:09 why 00:20:11 nothing wrong with intel 00:20:28 ehird, no 3DNow!~ 00:20:31 :-D 00:20:42 AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists? 00:21:25 ehird, more seriously: I had a Pentium 4 once. It permanently damaged my trust of Intel. 00:21:34 Well yeah pentium 4s are awful 00:21:40 But core 2s are great 00:21:52 Every company has bad times 00:21:58 ehird, Maybe. The Core 7i (or was it i7?) look worse 00:22:14 i7 has nehalem, which looks neat, but I'm not too fussed about that any more 00:22:35 ehird, A friend of mine called his i7 for "pentium 4 new edition" yesterday... 00:22:39 :-D 00:22:42 Sounds bad 00:22:47 AnMaster: So I guess you don't know if such a reship thingy exists? 00:23:01 AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists? <-- hm? 00:23:17 * AnMaster tries to locate the relevant line in scrollback it refers to 00:23:27 AnMaster: As in, system76 only ships to USA and Canada, so I wonder if a service exists where you ship to an address in the USA, then they reship it on to your international address for a (large) fee? 00:23:33 That would be useful and also very profitable 00:23:42 ehird, no idea. 00:23:48 I never ordered from US 00:23:57 Mm 00:24:08 Worst case, I can ask a friend in the US to handle it, maybe 00:24:18 ☺ 00:24:23 AnMaster: didn't you say night an hour ago? 00:24:55 I did. Bad resolve I think the technical term is? 00:25:03 heh 00:25:46 Well, system76 looks great 00:25:54 I hate large form factors 00:25:57 btw that server: You won't need monitor or such Nor DVD-RW 00:26:00 heck 00:26:12 AnMaster: I meant to use the server as a desktop machine 00:26:13 a server you only use CD in once: initial install 00:26:15 hopefully 00:26:28 ehird, they don't come in quiet editions in my experience 00:26:33 ah :-D 00:26:36 because no one will care in a servere room 00:26:49 AnMaster: Hmm ... http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=81 has the specs of the higher end desktop but seems to go cheaper 00:26:56 It doesn't have as many video card options though 00:27:08 "Currently Out of Stock - Please Check Back Soon" 00:27:08 oh 00:27:11 the memory isn't ddr3 00:27:13 a bit of a dampener eh? 00:27:15 'up to 8 GB Blazing Fast DDR 3 Memory ' 00:27:15 :-P 00:27:17 ehird, hm 00:27:21 ehird, I want FB RAM 00:27:21 on the higher end one 00:27:22 :D 00:27:25 FB ram? 00:27:30 fully buffered 00:27:36 http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91 WOW is this low end 00:28:00 is it? 00:28:13 AnMaster: look at the cpu specs! 00:28:15 it beats both my pentium 2 and pentium 3 easily 00:28:22 modern low end I mean 00:28:27 I couldn't bear to work on such a machine 00:28:31 heh 00:28:38 ehird, it would be a thin client probably? 00:28:46 AnMaster: No, it's meant for low-end desktop users 00:29:00 Even my mother's computer is dual-core, though, and she just uses gmail :-P 00:29:12 interesting servers have "no OS" option, but clients doesn't 00:29:26 Well, they get a lot of publicity from the ubuntu camp 00:29:29 Ubuntu 8.04 LTS Server Edition 64 bit 00:29:29 Ubuntu 8.10 Server Edition 64 bit 00:29:33 what does LTS mean? 00:29:36 AnMaster: Long Term Support 00:29:40 oh 00:29:43 occasionally they do a release that they support for like 4 years 00:29:51 I see 00:30:20 ehird, mine is single core, but it was rather upper middle end in 2005 00:30:25 Mm 00:30:27 or lower high end 00:30:44 The maxed out "Wild Dog" one is middle high end 00:30:49 ehird, I won't buy a new CPU until I need one. 00:30:50 Where the high end is things like nehalem 8-cores 00:30:58 26" KDS Widescreen LCD (1920 x 1200) ( +$380.00 ) 00:31:00 I wonder who KDS are 00:31:07 http://www.kdsusa.com/ 00:31:10 Never heard of them 00:31:28 Hope that Wild Dog thing has controllable fans 00:31:31 Well, it probably does. 00:31:48 ehird, real dream: Modern massively parallel Lisp machine with a real time IBM Roadrunner emulator built in 00:31:49 :D 00:32:01 My real dream is a pony. 00:32:03 ;_; 00:32:07 meh 00:32:16 that's not as cool as a lisp machine 00:32:16 Someone should install linux on a pony 00:32:27 Like, operate on them and put computer stuff in between the organs 00:32:32 ehird, cruelty to animals! 00:32:35 Then boot linux on it 00:32:43 It neighs, it boots! 00:32:58 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg 00:33:01 Those look pretty 00:33:14 Wouldn't want to dust that thing 00:33:17 Memory103.6 TiB 00:33:21 ;O-O; 00:33:49 yeah it's irritating isn't it 00:33:52 the TiB thing 00:33:54 "The Roadrunner uses Red Hat Enterprise Linux along with Fedora as its operating systems " 00:33:55 TB duh 00:34:00 lol, I can't imagine booting fedora on that 00:34:04 It'd be like... like... I don't know 00:34:09 ehird, yeah, would have to install Gentoo on it 00:34:18 Linus uses Fedora 00:34:22 kde? a few minutes to compile 00:34:24 "Linus Torvalds, author of the Linux kernel, says he uses Fedora because it had fairly good support for PowerPC when he used that processor architecture. He became accustomed to the operating system and continues to use it." 00:34:30 AnMaster: a few minutes? Seriously? 00:34:32 It'd only take seconds. 00:34:39 Think about it 00:34:42 ehird, it is optimised for floating point stuff 00:34:43 it's massively, massively parallel 00:34:48 "12,960 IBM PowerXCell[6] 8i CPUs and 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors" 00:34:50 compiling is integer heavy 00:34:53 ehird, ^ 00:34:53 You could compile all the files at once 00:34:57 AnMaster: that's not the point 00:35:02 you can compile everything at once, pretty much 00:35:08 ehird, dependencies 00:35:18 and scheduling overhead 00:35:21 AnMaster: regardless, KDE takes, what,an hour on a high end machine? 00:35:28 i'd say <60sec. 00:35:39 ehird, not sure. Mine isn't that high end 00:35:46 it takes around 4 hours on this one 00:35:56 for kdelibs + kdebase + kdevelop 00:36:05 which are the parts of KDE I use basically 00:36:09 The best way to justify a purchase of an expensive new PC 00:36:17 is to compile gcc with -j(1.5*cores) 00:36:20 heh 00:36:21 and watch it flow by 00:36:46 ehird, I compiled some C++ apps on a Quad core Opetron server yesterday 00:36:49 was amazing 00:37:03 How does opteron match up to core 2? 00:37:10 I guess roughly the same 00:37:22 AnMaster: btw, you should move c-intercal 00:37:23 to gopher 00:37:27 gopher over ipv6 only 00:37:32 ehird, haha 00:37:37 I might do that tomorrow 00:37:40 just because 00:37:44 it would certainly fit 00:37:50 but too tired tonight 00:38:15 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg <-- interesting warning label 00:38:17 how do people use huge displays? 00:38:20 i mean 00:38:22 don't their necks hurt :| 00:38:33 ehird, how do you define huge in this case 00:38:40 AnMaster: "If you touch a computer, it will fall down and another will take its place." 00:38:40 if it is 21" I can answer 00:38:47 AnMaster: No, I have a 20" here 00:38:50 I mean like 26" up 00:38:50 ehird, hahaha 00:38:56 ehird, ah no idea then 00:39:03 I guess they just have it lower down 00:39:08 and are bigger than me :P 00:39:28 ehird, btw does that mean you can hotplug modules in IBM Roadrunner? 00:39:43 AnMaster: "meep meep" 00:39:47 err? 00:39:48 what? 00:39:53 in other news, AMD renames themselves to Acme 00:39:57 hah 00:40:00 AnMaster: Wile E. Coyote, Roadrunner… 00:40:08 oh duh indeed 00:40:24 ehird, btw see those AMD labels? Want Intel or AMD now? ;P 00:40:39 AnMaster: Give me ten thousand of them and I'll think about it :-) 00:41:12 meh. s/give/let you pay for yourself and test/ and I'm with you 00:41:15 ;P 00:41:28 slicehost don't do ipv6 :-( 00:41:43 ehird, too few do IME 00:41:52 also 00:41:56 Well, it must be said that, you know, not many people use ipv6. 00:42:01 did you see the second 1 april RFC this year? 00:42:08 (or did you miss the link?) 00:42:10 It did prove to be a good way to narrow down my ISP choices, though — to include only competent ones. 00:42:12 AnMaster: Relink? 00:42:15 meh 00:42:56 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513 00:43:10 AIEEEEEEEE 00:43:13 ehird, ? 00:43:15 For example, RFC is a TLA formed of the first letters of the 00:43:15 phrase Rugby Football Club [URL-CARDIFF]. 00:43:45 hm 00:43:54 tools.ietf.org times out here 00:44:08 http://system76.com/images/wild_dog_P5_large_back.jpg ← Doesn't this have less than the minimum required Port Cruft for a PC? 00:44:16 There's legal standards for PC ugliness, you know. 00:44:39 ehird, yes they removed serial. Which is why it is a no-go 00:44:50 Yeah, if you're a dinosaur :P 00:44:51 also it is too wide or not tall enough 00:45:00 No, it's just right, I hate big PCs :-D 00:45:31 ehird, it wouldn't work in Europe. Observe back of power supply. 00:45:40 no voltage switching thingy 00:45:46 AnMaster: can't you get an adapter? 00:45:51 ehird, maybe 00:46:08 it'd be a shame to lose it over something so, well, trivial 00:46:11 ehird, that would remove the "low power usage thingy" mentioned there though 00:46:18 hmm 00:46:22 why wouldn't an adapter preserve that? 00:46:57 ehird, adapters leaks in the form of heat and such. Even those built into the power supply in the computer 00:47:02 add more and you get more leakage 00:47:07 ugh. 00:47:12 :( 00:47:15 simple, dear ehird! 00:47:16 ;P 00:47:28 AnMaster: Well, if it was a good adapter it wouldnt' add too much overhead would it? 00:47:58 ehird, well, I don't have hard figures on that. But still you will get some leakage for every adapter you add 00:48:06 but couldn't you replace power supply? 00:48:12 AnMaster: you mean internally? 00:48:16 yeah 00:48:17 I'm not sure I trust myself to do that 00:48:26 they aren't screws though on the back 00:48:29 or? 00:48:30 AnMaster: how much do they cost? 00:48:44 also, yes there are 00:48:50 AnMaster: the silver things on the black border 00:49:02 ehird, search me. I just know I took mine out once to be able to blow away some dust 00:49:06 worked fine 00:49:30 ehird, what sort of screwhead? Surface seeems even to me 00:49:44 AnMaster: look at the top-right one 00:49:47 on the side 00:49:50 there's a single horizontal line 00:49:51 dent 00:49:52 at the power supply 00:49:53 .. 00:49:58 oh. 00:50:03 AnMaster: you'd just take it all off, no? 00:50:06 and operate inside 00:50:19 I'll ask my hardware-y USian friend, I guess 00:50:52 Nice, the system76 people are on the ubuntu forums 00:51:10 ehird, well on my case you remove the side of the case first, then you hold your hand under the PSU to prevent it falling down while removing the screws from the outside. in the locations of those "balls" aprox. 00:51:15 One big cable to the mother board. One cable to each device. Not very hard to replug if you remove it. 00:51:15 ahh - that slow atom thing hyperthreads 00:51:17 that'd explain it 00:51:19 don't know how standard it is 00:51:23 MizardX: ofc. 00:51:42 MizardX, yeah too easy IMO 00:51:46 too easy for non-geeks 00:51:49 lol 00:51:51 "Why so expensive?" on the system76 forums o_O 00:52:07 ehird, make interface harder and more geeks would get highly paid 00:52:13 AnMaster: sort of like c++/ 00:52:14 ? 00:52:24 oh damn you are right 00:52:30 that's what C++ is all about indeed. 00:52:34 it must be so.. 00:52:38 AnMaster: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml 00:53:02 ehird, yes I read that. I just played that reply for the dramatic effet. 00:53:04 effect* 00:53:07 heh 00:53:15 I was in fact even thinking about http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml as I wrote it 00:53:49 ehird, anyway keep the geeks who are good at designing noob friendly interfaces well away from any interfaces 00:54:03 heh 00:54:09 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1111781 00:54:12 >I wanted to know if System76 planned to release any Core i7 desktops in the near future. 00:54:12 I'm sure we probably will. We're always looking into the latest and greatest. I don't have specs or an ETA available, though. 00:54:13 ehird, provide a high voltage external connector if needed 00:54:22 Don't do that to me, guys! I can't upgrade if you're about to upgrade :-) 00:54:26 that is on the outside 00:54:31 that should keep noobs away 00:54:34 AnMaster: lawl 00:55:09 truth is, it would keep me away too.... 00:55:14 So... system76 "wild dog" quad core 2.83ghz + bogons internet w/ openwrt-installed linux wireless linksys router 00:55:25 It's like "The Metamorphisis". 00:55:34 *Metamorphosis 00:55:35 ehird, do you need that computer for bogons internet? 00:55:38 AnMaster: no 00:55:47 or just designing dream? 00:55:52 It's a "one thing lead to another" thing. 00:55:53 you aim too low 00:55:56 And sort of, except more "reality" than "dream". 00:56:02 As in, "this is what I'm planning to get" 00:56:19 Personal IBM Roadrunner colocated with at googleplex. 00:56:21 No less! 00:56:29 heh 00:56:30 s/with/ 00:56:39 AnMaster: Imagine having complete access to Google's server farm 00:56:51 ehird, no, that would melt my mind 00:56:58 I'd rather not try to imagine it 00:57:03 AnMaster: so THAT's how they do their indexing! 00:57:05 invite people to try it out 00:57:07 their minds melt 00:57:09 they put them in a jar 00:57:13 hook it up to the computers 00:57:18 == amazing computing power 00:57:27 ehird, it would only melt geeks' brains right? 00:57:28 a billion cores 00:57:35 I mean a manager would not be affected 00:57:42 oh indeed, google is evil 00:57:44 AnMaster: no, they make it look like a windows desktop for them 00:57:51 but whenever you open outlook or IE 00:57:55 it turns into a really old unix system 00:57:58 error messages all over the place 00:58:00 huge virus warnings 00:58:05 etc 00:58:06 would that melt the mind of a manager? 00:58:17 AnMaster: When the manager calls for a techie, 00:58:30 androids supposedly infected with a virus come and yell at them. 00:58:35 Think about it. 00:58:36 that techie's mind would melt... 00:58:37 Broken techies. 00:58:41 hm maybe 00:58:42 What can the manager do? 00:58:49 Call for more techies./ 00:58:55 Then they just heat the room up so it melts. 00:59:01 heh 00:59:41 meh I'm almost falling asleep on keyboard. I'm going to eat some garlic (yum!) and go to sleep 00:59:48 ew garlic 00:59:48 bye 00:59:52 ehird, err what? 00:59:56 what's wrong with garlic! 01:00:00 nothing 01:00:04 it's perfect 01:00:04 Garlic is a nice seasoner 01:00:19 ehird, s/seasoner/base/ 01:00:29 s/potato/garlic/ 01:00:37 s/.*/garlic/ 01:00:45 AnMaster: s/mind/garlic/ 01:00:53 ehird, yes! 01:01:32 ehird, and I allow bacon to coexist if you want. Maybe you could try garlic and bacon flavour 01:01:36 on something 01:01:38 combined I mean 01:01:47 Hmm. 01:01:49 Intriguing. 01:01:52 But bacon is best with more bacon. 01:02:03 For you ehird bacon is holy. For me it is garlic. 01:02:17 ehird, and I'd say garlic is best with more garlic 01:02:31 however, Swedes are known for compromises. 01:02:54 "2.1 - Logitech X-230 - 2 Satellites, 1 Subwoofer ( +$49.00 )" 01:02:56 we always try to reach some solution that isn't too bad for either side. 01:03:00 Those speakers look nice. 01:03:15 I have crappy internal ones atm 01:03:21 ehird, I wouldn't buy them. I prefer my high end headphones. AKG 240 Studio. 01:03:32 I like speakers and headphones. It depends. 01:03:39 have yet to find speakers giving as good sound as them 01:03:51 the even manage bass very well. 01:04:01 hm 01:04:04 is that right word 01:04:09 bass? bas? base? 01:04:10 um 01:04:25 bass. 01:04:40 sv:bas means both en:base and en:bass 01:04:49 which means I mix them up in English sometimes 01:04:51 I generally prefer speakers because headphones tend to... well, the music clogs my brain. 01:04:58 ehird, huh? 01:05:05 -!- neldoreth has joined. 01:05:06 Without the atmosphere noises & echo and whatnot that come from speakers, the sound sort of blots out other thought. 01:05:18 So I can use headphones when just idly browsing the web and listening to music, but not really much else. 01:05:47 ehird, hm. Your harddrive isn't as loud clearly :P 01:06:09 I need my components to be near-silent. 01:06:20 ehird, I wish I had that. I don't. 01:06:21 :( 01:06:25 I like the sound of ... well, not silence, just the sound of a room without any noise in it. 01:06:31 hm 01:06:40 what is those non-headphones 01:06:44 for blocking noise 01:06:47 earmuffs. 01:06:51 Guess you could say my favourite song is 4'33" 01:06:51 looks like headphones yeah 01:07:06 ehird, often see people working with machines with them 01:07:07 hm 01:07:11 yes 01:07:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmuffs 01:07:21 I heard the word "ear protector" too I think? 01:07:27 yes 01:08:02 Hey, does anyone know if you can get the BIOS to not spew info? 01:08:03 ehird, I usually use mine when working with my computer 01:08:10 I like a bootup process without lots of text. 01:08:17 ehird, no, I only know how to get it to spew more 01:08:17 AnMaster: Wow, how loud are your fans? 01:08:18 :/ 01:08:23 ehird, too loud 01:08:30 I used to sleep next to my computer 01:08:38 Shitty mobo, shitty cpu, <1gb of ram, shitty fans 01:08:39 ehird, + I'm over-sensitive to sound 01:08:47 And I was only a few cm away from it 01:08:49 as in, I got much better than normal hearing 01:08:53 It was *awful*. 01:09:05 was tested some years ago 01:09:16 ehird, so they aren't that loud to other people 01:09:21 for me however... 01:09:26 I have rather precise hearing. 01:09:30 And sight. 01:09:45 well I'm less gifted in the sight department 01:09:52 (glasses) 01:10:08 I can pick out individual pixels from not-that-close to a monitor 01:10:11 Well, not if it's high dpi 01:10:22 I can't really watch analog tvs 01:10:25 ehird, heh I can't do that unless I bend very close 01:10:27 Too much distortion 01:10:41 I guess you could say I'm a pedant in more than just language. 01:11:11 ehird, luckily this room is too small to have the bed in, and the other room to small to have the desk in. Thus I sleep in another room where I don't hear the computer 01:11:21 I guess it's funny that I don't really like headphones when I like post-rock 01:11:29 oh? 01:11:30 Sort of contradictory there. 01:12:01 ehird, I find headphones are excellent for classical music (in the wider sense too) 01:12:13 Well, post-rock is very related to classical music. 01:12:16 mhm 01:12:32 ehird, I don't really know which genre post-rock is 01:12:54 as soon as it says "post" it is too new to have a proper name IMO 01:12:55 ;P 01:13:06 AnMaster: It's basically classical music done with electric guitars. Tends to be a bit pretentious. 01:13:09 ehird, how about some Jazz? 01:13:18 I like some jazz. 01:13:29 interesting. We share that taste heh 01:13:32 AnMaster: I like Autechre's Gantz Graf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ -- go figure. 01:13:37 (is the world ending yet?) 01:13:42 Yes. 01:13:44 This is actually limbo. 01:13:53 define:limbo? 01:14:07 AnMaster: Post-death, between heaven and hell. 01:14:22 The catholics are more precise about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo 01:14:25 post-*: too new for me ;P 01:14:29 "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned" 01:14:30 I told you above 01:14:46 AnMaster: autechre isn't post-rock 01:14:59 You should load that in your youtubey-thingy so you can marvel at what bad taste I have. 01:15:01 "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned" <--- space constraints in hell? 01:15:06 AnMaster: :-D 01:16:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ <-- this is music? 01:16:45 Yes. 01:17:09 so... the world _is_ comming to an end 01:17:11 [[Sarah Dempster, writing for the NME, gave the EP a strongly negative review, claiming "It bleeps. It skronks. It krrraaaanks. But mainly, it blows like a ruddy awful hurricane." She also called it a "festering hillock of tune-shy bum-wank."]] 01:17:18 I agree completely and I still like it :-D 01:18:01 AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Autechremax.jpg <-- This is the kind of thing the group who made that do 01:18:11 I can't for the life of me understand a colour picker in a music application but there you go 01:18:16 ehird, SFW? 01:18:19 Yes 01:18:20 ehird, SFM? 01:18:21 It's a screenshot 01:18:23 No 01:18:25 Not SFM 01:18:29 what? 01:18:34 Safe for mind 01:18:37 yes 01:18:41 It's not safe for mind. 01:18:44 hm 01:18:55 If you consider that it purports to create music. 01:18:56 ehird, I see that screenshot 01:19:02 but I don't know what it means 01:19:13 AnMaster: I don't think _they_ do 01:19:19 oh ok 01:19:24 it runs on OS X 01:19:32 with too many apps running 01:19:44 They're not running 01:19:48 Only the ones with a ^ are running 01:20:03 AnMaster: It's a sequencing thingy used by Autechre, who made that Gantz Graf thing 01:20:03 oh right, forgot that 01:20:08 too many apps in the dock still 01:20:12 It's in max/msp which is like visual programming for audio/video stuff 01:20:19 And it's completely insane 01:20:34 ehird, what's the colour picker for? 01:20:36 'Coreboot (previously LinuxBIOS) is something that our R&D department keeps an eye on. At some point in the future we may use it. However, there is a lot of testing that needs to be done before we could adopt it as a BIOS replacement. ' 01:20:38 -system76 01:20:44 AnMaster: one of the input parameters to it 01:20:54 I didn't know you could install coreboot 01:21:24 ehird, well you can flash it into your old BIOS 01:21:30 if you dare 01:21:34 AnMaster: er... what does that involve? 01:21:36 it sounds very scary 01:22:09 ehird, booting a floppy, and making sure your BIOS is removable so you can replace the chipset with a backup one if something fails 01:22:18 (make sure to have one too) 01:22:24 oh, i was expecting like, soldering 01:22:35 ehird, flashing your BIOS 01:22:37 never done it? 01:22:40 for upgrades or such 01:22:41 Nope 01:22:45 you boot a DOS floppy 01:22:48 and run some command 01:22:49 and wait 01:22:54 hope it all works 01:22:56 and then reboot 01:23:08 does coreboot have any advantages apart from being opensourc? 01:23:08 e 01:23:11 like, is it faster? 01:23:17 '- Fast boot times 3 sec. ' 01:23:20 apparently, yes. 01:23:22 ehird, I think it can boot linux faster yes 01:23:23 that sounds great 01:23:27 since it can skip many steps 01:23:44 ehird, your hardware could die if you fail it though 01:23:49 as in something breaks 01:23:51 AnMaster: 1yr warranty 01:23:58 i guess it might not count if it's my fault :-) 01:24:01 I plead insanity 01:24:02 ehird, flashing bios would void warranty 01:24:06 yarr 01:24:10 for all computers I have seen 01:24:19 that is except official upgrades 01:24:33 hmm 01:24:35 I flashed the BIOS on a dell once that couldn't keep it's time 01:24:37 so 3 seconds in bios 01:24:38 it helped 01:24:43 then ~20-30 sec in linux booting 01:24:50 that'd be even faster to boot than this mac 01:25:00 ehird, um I got those 20 seconds down to 13 on my p3 01:25:09 though I admit it doesn't start X 01:25:15 AnMaster: doesn't count :-) 01:25:17 it starts sshd and nfsd basically 01:25:39 oh and syslog and cron of course 01:25:44 but that's it iirc 01:25:58 Say, what's the recommended filesystem for data/os these days? 01:26:05 ext3 for os/progs? 01:26:12 ehird, oh my. Why did you ask about ise vs ize... 01:26:14 err 01:26:20 same thing basically 01:26:20 .. 01:26:25 i mean 01:26:31 ext3 for os/progs, and what for data? 01:27:15 ehird, I use ext3 for / /boot /usr /var, xfs for rest. With different block sizes depending on for what 01:27:23 xfs... isn't that the sun thing? 01:27:27 actually /var/tmp is xfs too, 01:27:33 ehird, err it is the irix one 01:27:37 I may just put it all on one fs to avoid slowness copying between partitions 01:27:38 jfs is the ibm one 01:27:46 AnMaster: I hate the forced regular fsck 01:27:50 oh I was thinking of zfs 01:27:52 zfs is the sun one 01:27:53 indeed 01:28:08 but yeah... "I hate the forced regular fsck" a lot 01:28:13 ehird, well you can disable that forced fsck 01:28:19 if you know the relevant man pages 01:28:20 AnMaster: is that good for stability, though/ 01:28:30 ehird, I guess it is an extra safe guard 01:28:39 but with small partitions it doesn't take long anyway 01:29:05 AnMaster: 750gb :-P 01:29:07 ehird, I just said you _could_, I didn't recommend it 01:29:24 ehird, that's one disk (in a RAID 1 pair), not one partition 01:29:25 :P 01:29:37 I don't do RAID 01:29:39 for better or for worse 01:29:49 oh wait you can get 1tb 01:29:51 make that 1tb. 01:29:57 anyway I'm too sleepy to explain partitioning that I prefer. Partly it depends on your own needs too 01:30:27 AnMaster: my current backup plan is http://www.tarsnap.com/, which encrypts your backup with aes and puts it on amazon s3 (which a lot of businesses etc critically rely on, so it's very stable) 01:30:42 argh 01:30:47 wut 01:30:53 why does the clicky url include the , 01:30:55 after / 01:31:01 blame yer client :D 01:31:02 means 404 01:31:18 ehird, I blame the messenger instead ;P 01:31:18 I got a BeagleBoard 8-D 01:31:49 ehird, how much does s3 cost? 01:31:53 AnMaster: from looking around, ati cards seem fine in linux as long as they're one of the well-supported ones 01:32:02 AnMaster: also, something like a few cents a gig 01:32:04 it's ridiculously cheap 01:32:08 but tarsnap pays it for you 01:32:10 you pay tarsnap 01:32:13 colin percival runs it 01:32:14 of bsd fame 01:32:18 hm... 01:32:32 daemonology guy? 01:32:35 oh indeed then 01:32:36 yes 01:32:41 and now. Night. Finally 01:32:45 period. 01:32:48 night 01:32:49 As you use tarsnap, money will be deducted from your account daily at a rate of 01:32:49 300 picodollars USD per byte of bandwidth used ($0.30 / GB), and 01:32:50 300 picodollars USD per byte-month of storage ($0.30 / GB / month). 01:33:03 hmm wait... 01:33:10 so that'd be $225 a month to back up a 750gb drive 01:33:11 ouch 01:33:18 that's just for storage 01:33:29 oh wait 01:33:31 it's compressed 01:33:32 hm 01:33:38 -!- cherez has joined. 01:34:04 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:42:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:49:32 Dollars USD. 01:51:25 -!- cherez has joined. 01:51:48 the kind you get from an ATM machine if you've can just remember your PIN number 01:51:53 *you 01:53:05 i wonder if this was covered in that request RFC about the TLA acronyms 01:53:51 I'm from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept. You're coming with me. 01:54:25 -!- cherez has left (?). 01:54:39 http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2450.txt <<< wait, what? 01:54:58 i think that's FAIL 01:55:39 the DRD department will _never_ get me *runs* 01:58:39 * Robdgreat drops a hot water heater on oerjan 01:59:27 * oerjan gives the heater a cold shoulder 01:59:31 *ouch* 02:00:31 * oerjan decapitates the heater and takes a shower in the process 02:01:00 for your FYI, that hot water heater was just like a hot water heater to me 02:01:16 and you killed it dead 02:01:17 figures 02:01:41 * oerjan turns the corpse into a makeshift fort 02:02:04 you're surrounded on all sides! Surrender and give yourself up! 02:04:51 i surrender, i seem to have run out of redundancies 02:04:59 hahah 02:05:23 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 02:05:58 |*-*| 02:06:40 now look what you've done. you've gone and woken Sgeo 02:06:58 ayeeh! 02:11:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:32:21 What are we talking about and talking about? 02:32:40 (Yep, that and that are right. It's the really annoying and annoying way of being redundant and redundant.) 02:36:04 but it is neither clever nor clever 02:40:21 -!- cherez has joined. 02:41:05 -!- cherez has left (?). 02:48:56 It wouldn't be annoying if it were clever, now, would it? 02:49:06 (As opposed to ". . ., now, would it.") 02:51:01 it might. i'm sure John Cleese could pull it off. 02:52:42 -!- cherez has joined. 02:52:51 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit). 02:55:22 -!- cherez has joined. 02:55:26 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit). 02:55:31 -!- cherez has joined. 02:55:36 -!- cherez has left (?). 02:55:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 03:01:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:16:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:28:48 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:32:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:46:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:48:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:50:16 -!- calamari has joined. 05:30:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:13:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:16:01 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:57:01 AnMaster always says "night" a couple of times, but never manages to actually go away. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:02 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 08:07:37 -!- olsner has joined. 08:42:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:22:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:31:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 09:42:42 -!- neldoreth has joined. 09:43:12 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 10:06:59 -!- tombom has joined. 10:45:12 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:49:35 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:01:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:41:47 -!- jix has joined. 12:08:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:04:53 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 13:11:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:12:45 -!- neldoreth has joined. 13:34:11 fizzie, yeah 13:34:13 I know 13:34:30 addicted to irc 13:35:15 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 14:21:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:44:27 AnMaster: hmm, does cfunge 0.4.0 have been released officially? it seems kuonet.org works now but not updated. 14:45:29 ah i thought http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ is official page; but there is also sf.net project... 14:46:55 lifthrasiir, yes it works now, but I haven't had time to update it 14:46:59 will do that shortly 14:47:10 trying to fix a broken backup script atm... 14:47:18 (that is way more important to me...) 14:47:27 then i should mention your sysinfo-multi-stack-sizes.b98 has a bug... ;) 14:47:42 details? 14:49:32 lifthrasiir, ? 14:49:36 hmm 14:49:52 i should recheck the issue... not sure yet 14:50:22 i thought 2a*1+k$ should be 2a*k$ 14:50:30 lifthrasiir, It may be wrong, I remember Deewiant and me discussing what was the right order to push the sizes of the stack-stacks in. 14:50:32 hm 14:50:41 no, order is not a problem 14:50:53 lifthrasiir, that is quite possible, it is a bit old and mycology used to misinterpret the specs for k 14:51:08 there is 12 cells and 5 vectors to be pushed by y command before stack stack information... 14:51:17 Everybody used to misinterpret the specs for k :-P 14:51:20 :p 14:51:38 had to change the way k was handled when Mike Riley showed up with a test suite that was written by C Pressy that handled it differently 14:51:52 C.* 14:52:09 Well, the fact that you can never iterate only once wasn't exactly expected :-P 14:52:11 Pressey* 14:52:53 AnMaster: ah, okay. 2a*k$ is correct, because y pushes 9 cells, 5 vectors, 2 cells, size of stack stacks and list of sizes of stack stacks. 14:53:12 in befunge-98 there are 9+5*2+2=21 cells before size of stack stacks so that should be 2a*k$ 14:53:16 lifthrasiir, so it was correct in new scheme? 14:53:20 yes 14:53:24 mhm 14:53:31 fizzie, right 14:54:13 (i think i have to learn arithmetic again... :S) 14:54:31 heh 14:55:01 i got confused when i miscounted that number of cells to be 22, not 21 14:58:30 -!- oklopol_ has joined. 14:58:47 * oklopol_ suddenly realizes he has another computer 15:03:07 oklopol_, huh? 15:04:17 <- this computer 15:04:23 my laptop brokered 15:04:30 ah 15:04:32 ouch 15:04:59 well i had access to a computer anyway, just couldn't irc that much 15:05:34 this keyboard is kinda cool, it's been on the floor for about half a year, and i recently spilled a cup of coffee on it 15:05:36 kinda sticky 15:05:53 kinda nice 15:15:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:16:50 -!- neldoreth has joined. 15:49:33 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:50:43 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:58:11 -!- Mony has joined. 16:59:10 -!- ehird has joined. 16:59:32 http://www.kdsusa.com/K2626mdhwb.asp 17:00:11 drooleritious 17:05:00 hmm the pixel pitch is higher than this display 17:09:42 Deewiant, btw, I don't know when you plan to update the mycology result page next, but locally efunge passes mycology now. It has a known bug with k over k, but so does CCBI 17:09:51 GOOD: i works in text mode 17:09:51 Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed. 17:09:51 Trying to write to it with o... 17:09:51 UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode 17:09:52 um 17:09:55 that looks odd 17:10:08 I maintain that CCBI's behaviour is not a bug 17:10:12 Deewiant, i is implemented but o isn't (and y says that correctly) 17:10:29 the i/o related output seems kind of odd... 17:10:30 AnMaster: Yes, which is why that isn't BAD. 17:10:46 Deewiant, the reason why it can't test o is not the right one though... 17:10:46 I couldn't be bothered to fix it properly so that it'd say 'UNDEF: o is not implemented' instead. 17:10:50 ah 17:10:50 ok 17:10:51 AnMaster: Yes it is. 17:11:03 It tries o and fails, and then it checks if it's supposed to work or not. 17:11:10 Deewiant, is it still hard to insert extra code into mycology or? 17:11:24 didn't you say you made that easier using { to set storage offset or something 17:11:25 That area is trickier than most since it's right next to where mycorand.bf is loaded 17:11:34 ah right 17:11:44 I don't think I can assume that {} work at that point either :-P 17:12:03 Deewiant, you can, you test that before you test y 17:12:10 But it's not fatal if it fails 17:12:14 oh ok 17:12:27 Deewiant, if it isn't fatal you can't assume it anywhere in mycology can you? 17:12:42 They're only needed for fingerprints and I explicitly say somewhere that fingerprints shouldn't be tested until the core works 17:13:00 What are you doing implementing fingerprints into a broken interpreter anyway? :-P 17:13:35 Deewiant, it passes mycology, it can't be broken then can it? ;P 17:13:58 Wasn't directed at you, just a hypothetical 17:14:13 NULL, MODU, ROMA, CPLI and FIXP are implemented in efunge 17:14:22 also yes it also have the bounds bug 17:14:43 and I'm currently working on it in cfunge, should have more time today 17:16:58 Deewiant, btw efunge defines Erlang as it's host env. This is because erlang will set/change certain environment variables, such as $PATH 17:17:15 it is impossible to work around that. 17:17:19 it is documented in the README. 17:19:24 Deewiant, for example, on my system these are the changes made by the erlang runtime: http://rafb.net/p/DCezyl46.html 17:22:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:30:27 All right, fixed the Hello! example on the DOBELA page and my interpreter runs it correctly \o/ 17:32:57 \o/ 17:33:20 3792 bytes, I wonder if I can put the whole thing in 4 Kio 17:33:47 Probably not, but 5 should be doable :-) 17:40:12 hey AnMaster, i just realised what gfx card i have in here 17:40:13 ATI Radeon X1600 17:40:17 * ehird watches AnMaster's seizure 17:42:37 I have an X1400 Mobility on my laptop 17:43:26 ehird, how well does it work under Linux when doing OpenGL heavy stuff? 17:43:27 i shall be getting a Radeon 4870 in this new box if everything goes to plan 17:43:38 AnMaster: well, I haven't tried, but compiz works fine with it 17:44:23 I have a 4870 in my current machine 17:44:27 No hardware acceleration \o/ 17:44:30 Deewiant: what video mem/ 17:44:32 But, sauna -> 17:44:37 ehird: 1 GB 17:44:40 -> 17:44:40 ehird, I was thinking more about 3D games. For example Flightgear is so opengl heavy it has caused bugs to show up in certain nvidia driver versions too, some developer called it an opengl testsuite as a joke iirc 17:44:42 i was going for '2 GB ATI Radeon 4870 X2 PCI-Express x16 GDDR5' 17:44:54 AnMaster: I can try glxgears if you want. 17:45:00 ;-) 17:45:07 ehird, that usually works okish 17:45:13 That was a joke 17:45:17 oh ok 17:45:30 2 GB video memory heh 17:45:46 AnMaster: Yes, well, why not. 17:45:49 * AnMaster remembers when 32 MB was a lot of video memory 17:46:00 AnMaster: I bet this machine could run Crysis. 17:46:06 Crysis? 17:46:18 AnMaster: it's an fps whose large system requirements are a meme 17:46:29 ah ok 17:46:57 Minimum system requirements 17:46:57 from Crytek and EA 17:46:58 OS - Windows XP or Windows Vista 17:47:01 Processor - 2.8 GHz or faster (XP) or 3.2 GHz or faster* (Vista) 17:47:02 Memory - 1.0 GB RAM (XP) or 1.5 GB RAM (Vista) 17:47:04 Video Card -256 MB** 17:47:06 Hard Drive - 12GB 17:47:09 and that's just the minimum 17:47:12 Recommended System Requirements 17:47:12 from Crytek and EA 17:47:15 OS - Windows XP / Vista 17:47:16 Processor - Intel Core 2 DUO @ 2.2GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ 17:47:18 Memory - 2.0 GB RAM 17:47:21 GPU - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS/640 or similar 17:48:01 interesting how Vista needs a lot more for CPU and memory... 17:48:09 btw what is the * and ** there? 17:48:20 AnMaster: Er, footnote thingies 17:48:33 ehird, duh, I meant what does the footnotes say... 17:48:35 * Supported Processors: Intel Pentium 4 2.8 GHz (3.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, Intel Core 2.0 GHz (2.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, AMD Athlon 2800+ (3200+ for Vista) or faster. 17:48:36 ** Supported chipsets: NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT or greater; ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (Radeon X800 Pro for Vista) or greater. Laptop versions of these chipsets may work but are not supported. Integrated chipsets are not supported. Updates to your video and sound card drivers may be required. 17:48:38 right 17:48:47 do* 17:48:55 AnMaster: I think since system76 are in the ubuntu community etc there're probably good drivers for the cards 17:49:11 ehird, hopefully yes 17:49:21 but they only ship in US and CA remember? 17:49:30 AnMaster: I have friends in the u 17:49:30 s 17:49:40 who could ship it to me 17:49:40 + then there is the power supply voltage issue 17:49:53 AnMaster: I can replace the power supply 17:49:57 ehird, would you trust those friends not to keep it for themselves? 17:50:09 AnMaster: You have shitty friends. :-P 17:50:52 * AnMaster refrains from a reply that would lead to another ignore-from-both-side-war 17:50:54 I wouldn't be friends with someone who would steal a pc & money from me 17:51:05 (shipping money) 17:52:21 ehird, I assume none of your friends is named Nobby then 17:52:22 ;P 17:52:58 That would be a true statement. 17:52:58 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 17:53:24 ehird, btw those system requirements above, odd that the footnote for video card contains info about sound card drivers... 17:53:41 AnMaster: there was another line about the soundcard 17:53:42 with a ** 17:53:45 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 17:53:45 ah 17:53:56 ehird, right. Sparse copy 17:53:58 * ehird asks stuff in the system76 forums 17:55:09 well those minimum system requirements listed above does seem rather large, but only two are outrageous: XP/Vista for OS, and 12 GB for harddrive. 17:55:32 the recommended ones seems outrageous too. 17:55:56 well, 12gb hd is standard these days 17:56:02 i mean, games in 2003 were 5gb 17:56:25 ehird, well but presumably it means it will use 12 GB, not that it will fit on a 12 GB large harddrive that also contains vista... 17:56:54 :D 17:56:57 yes 17:57:24 ehird, you know, I think it would be a good thing to force everyone at EA to work with the demo scene for DOS for a few months, might bring the game size down a bit... 17:57:36 I love the demoscene 17:57:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeh9VQyP3E ← I can't believe they fit this into 64k in an amiga 17:58:22 because there are things to optimise stuff that a lot of people don't know. For example the cvs(!) checkout of the full data directory for flightgear is huge. Around 800 MB... 17:58:30 lol cvs 17:58:52 but I managed to save 50 just by re-compressing all the png textures with advpng -z2 and optipng -i0 -o3 17:59:02 * ehird reads the marketing site for the speakers http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/208&cl=roeu,en 17:59:10 bloated png files is a real issue these days :/ 17:59:25 s/is/are/ 17:59:44 ehird, hm ok. but what about: the issue of bloated png files is/are a real issue these days :/ 17:59:48 which one to use then 17:59:49 AnMaster: it's are 17:59:51 er no 17:59:52 it's 17:59:57 the issue of bloated png files is a real one these days 17:59:57 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:00:02 right 18:00:10 the satellites look like traffic lights 18:00:17 ehird, there it is singular, but in the other case it is plural... 18:00:19 http://www.logitech.com/repository/324/jpg/2325.1.0.jpg 18:00:24 confusing IMO 18:00:24 AnMaster: an issue is one thing 18:00:34 yes true 18:00:36 AnMaster: but in "bloated png files" 18:00:45 you're referring to multiple png files being the singular issue 18:00:52 ehird, it all be so much clear if we used S-Expressions to group it 18:01:04 s/\ball/would all/ 18:01:10 s/clear/clearer/ 18:02:15 (is (issue (bloated (png-files))) (these-days (real issue))) 18:02:29 or we could just learn lojban instead 18:02:34 probably easier 18:02:42 mi'e .Eli,at.xrd. 18:02:43 I think. 18:02:52 ...or maybe not 18:03:02 ehird, what does it use , and . for? 18:03:10 AnMaster: err, like, breaking and stuff 18:03:11 01 Aug 2007 11:28:46 xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u 18:03:19 also does google translate do lojban 18:03:21 I think that's "I say 'my name is Elliott Hird'" 18:03:21 and no 18:03:31 hm how did you work out that line there then? 18:03:36 asked someone who spoke it? 18:03:44 AnMaster: That was from #lojban when I was learning it 18:03:46 I've forgotten it all now 18:04:01 hm strange that names are changed like that 18:04:37 AnMaster: Not really; it's just like romanization. 18:04:40 I mean usually you write a French name in a Swedish or English text in it's original form and so on. Exception being other scripts being transcribed to the Latin charset 18:04:44 hm 18:04:55 Hird -> xrd. ? 18:05:02 Like: xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u 18:05:02 Which is: Did I say/Do I say "I am named Elliott Hird" 18:05:03 — me 18:05:06 AnMaster: x is like ch in bach 18:05:10 idea: make a programming language which looks like Lojban. 18:05:11 AnMaster: You can't get it precis 18:05:11 e 18:05:18 AnMaster: you can make a proglang which _is_ lojban 18:05:19 it has a yacc parser 18:05:21 hm 18:05:25 hehe 18:05:27 which is the official grammar 18:05:29 iirc 18:05:31 :D 18:05:35 http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300 18:05:59 ehird, can a computer actually make sense of that syntax tree you get though? 18:06:14 AnMaster: It can't understand it like a human, obviously. 18:06:22 [[it has selbri, which are like functions - they take a number of arguments ("places") and you can skip arguments with special words that move to different arguments]] -- me 18:06:35 So it's quite a close fit 18:06:59 "mee cooskoo lohhoo meeheh Eleaht chrd lehhoo" 18:06:59 Where ch is like in Bach. 18:07:01 -- me on pronounciation of mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u 18:07:18 ehird, lets say you tell it in lojban "go ahead", but wouldn't there be many different ways to express that? In English there certainly are, some depending on context. 18:07:30 AnMaster: There's always multiple ways to express something. 18:07:37 It's impossible to restrict that. 18:07:38 indeed 18:08:02 AnMaster: The language is unambiguous -- but that doesn't mean what you say in it is. 18:08:08 "sure", "go ahead", "okay" could all mean the same thing to a human (depending on context, in certain contexts they would be rather different) 18:08:53 I admit I don't know lojban, so maybe it has some way to handle this 18:08:55 ? 18:09:04 Not really. 18:09:09 It's still tuned for human expression. 18:09:15 right 18:09:48 so we are still far from the computer on Enterprise then :/ 18:10:12 "One of the his first non-programming works—the GNU Manifesto—was a certifiable snore-fest, later adopted by a commercial enterprise, repackaged, and sold on the industrial pharmaceutical market as a sedative for invasive surgery. " 18:10:14 - http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Stallman 18:10:59 ehird, btw, you said x was like ch in bach above, so "Hird" is pronounced like "chird"?? 18:11:14 AnMaster: No, it's pronounced like herd, but lojban has no equivalent sound. 18:11:17 ch is as close as you can get. 18:11:18 or maybe i mistook the word 18:11:19 ah 18:11:26 blowjban 18:11:38 lament: you just reached a new low in coherency 18:11:39 grat 18:11:40 s 18:12:26 ehird, hm.. it made kind of sense in a meta-sense kind of non-sense way 18:12:42 kind of like the description for the last sqrt(-garfield) 18:12:54 There should be free pacemaker software like corebios 18:13:00 Become an early adopter! 18:13:00 same sort of meta-sense I mean 18:13:09 And, er, a "late" adopter. 18:13:13 * ehird *instant rimshot* 18:13:19 ehird, to get back to x: is there a strict connection between spelling and pronouncing then in lojban? 18:13:24 AnMaster: yes 18:13:31 because I think that is why we still don't use such languages 18:13:33 all letters are pronounced in exactly one way 18:13:37 sure it is easier to learn 18:13:48 but it makes the language a bit boring kind of 18:13:53 for many people 18:14:15 you need some quirks to make it feel like a real language. Otherwise it just feels very artificial 18:14:40 oh god, I read 'colorforth.com update. SeaForth is dead. Chuck Moore is back.' 18:14:44 as 'Chuck Moore is dead' 18:14:47 and I died a little insid 18:14:47 e 18:14:49 err 18:14:52 http://colorforth.com/ 18:15:00 I read "chuck moore" as "chuck norris" 18:15:01 oh my 18:15:03 :-D 18:15:09 chuck norris codes forth with his bible 18:15:23 i lov ehow he looks like he was just in a fight in this pic: http://colorforth.com/chuck.jpg 18:15:25 hm, soundforth? 18:15:30 not sure how 18:15:36 but the name sounds interesting 18:15:40 heh 18:15:48 4 dimensional forth 18:15:51 AnMaster: ooh! 18:15:53 ehird, you could have touchforth too... 18:15:55 a 4-d funge 18:15:58 which uses sound as the fourth d 18:16:03 to represent it that is 18:16:13 hm... fourth d? 18:16:19 ah 18:16:27 I read that as "forth d" 18:16:33 XD 18:16:49 with the u added it makes sense indeed 18:17:26 ehird, how would you encode it in sound? And how would you sync the ASCII file with this signal? 18:17:45 AnMaster: ask oklopol_, he was writing a 4d pong where fourth d = sound 18:17:57 trefunge uses form feed to increment the z dimension... 18:18:10 (you probably know this) 18:18:11 hm 18:18:54 oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise? 18:19:17 ehird, was this recently or? 18:19:25 AnMaster: like ... early mid 2008? 18:19:29 ah ok 18:19:38 how about 8D pong, with sound and taste 18:19:54 6D 18:20:01 all of your senses. psychics only 18:20:14 heh 18:21:55 ehird, iirc you said your computer was almost silent? 18:22:04 AnMaster: generally, yes 18:22:15 probably not for you and your mega ears 18:22:47 ehird, at what sort of usage does it's fans turn on? 18:23:04 I mean, compiling a small app? Compiling a large app? 3D games? 18:23:17 AnMaster: Compiling generally makes the fans run a lil', but not too noticable. 18:23:34 It's hard to get the fans to go high -- I've only had them on full when it measured wrong and put them on full blast by mistake. 18:23:40 ehird: Those two Radeon X2s will make it sound like a space rocket 18:23:48 Deewiant: What, all the time? 18:23:54 Also, I'm talking about my current rig 18:24:00 ehird, the best way would be to have the computer in one room then a terminal in a separate room 18:24:07 ehird: Yes, all the time. 18:24:12 Deewiant: o_O Why? 18:24:21 AnMaster: Lisp Machines did that. 18:24:31 They're not exactly known as very quiet cards. :-P 18:24:58 ehird, I have seen some laptops that are silent mostly when you use them, but run fan at full speed when you go compiling or run a simulation or such, and even with the fans on it runs very hot then.. 18:25:02 Deewiant: What actually makes the noise? I'm not a gfx-card-knowledgable kind of person. 18:25:22 But that sounds sucky, if they're gonna be loud all the time I'll have to ditch them :-( 18:25:28 an apple macbook (non-pro) did this to me about half a year ago, not the last model or such even back then... 18:25:46 ehird: Fans. 18:26:00 Deewiant: And why does it need to run these fans all the time? 18:26:00 Deewiant, also seeking harddrives (some models) 18:26:04 but fans are worse yes 18:26:04 ehird: It runs at around 60 degrees when idle, with the fans on. 18:26:12 Deewiant: what the fuck. 18:26:15 Sounds shite. 18:26:18 Err. 18:26:21 Do you mean f or c 18:26:38 Or maybe I'm confusing the number with power usage in watts, actually 18:26:42 heh 18:26:47 I'll have to check 18:26:56 ehird, my GPU came in two editions, one with fan and one without, sadly the one without was out of stock and I needed a replacement the same day (my old geforce 3 had finally given up. R.I.P.) 18:27:02 And for the record I never use Fahrenheit. 18:27:30 60c is just ridiculous 18:27:32 ehird: No, I was right, at least one review says 58 degrees when idle (22 db) 18:27:38 70-75 when active 18:27:42 Deewiant: wait, 22 db? Am I fucking hearing you right? 18:27:46 That's fucking ridiculous. 18:27:47 geforce 7600 btw, with the more extreme cards I assume it would be hard to make a fan-less edition 18:27:48 ehird: When idle. 18:27:48 Good god. 18:27:51 ehird: When active, 40ish. 18:28:06 And drawing about 200 Watts. 18:28:07 ehird, how hot is the CPU in your mac btw? 18:28:08 Deewiant: I should just buy a fan and put it on full right next to my ears. 18:28:09 just wondering 18:28:16 AnMaster: I don't know I've never touched it :-P 18:28:19 ehird: Oh, and btw. This wasn't an X2. 18:28:24 Deewiant: what was it 18:28:28 A plain HD 4870. 18:28:31 Like mine. 18:28:32 ehird, iirc macs have sensors, I even remember seeing some app on OS X showing it in a nice way 18:28:36 forgot the program name 18:28:47 it worked when I tried it on that macbook at least... 18:28:48 ehird: The X2s will be worse, of course. Don't know by how much, though. 18:28:49 Deewiant: so why do people buy these things... 18:29:08 ehird: People who buy the latest and greatest graphics cards aren't generally looking for silent systems :-P 18:29:14 Harumph. 18:29:32 Deewiant: the lowest end this comes with is a 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3 18:29:32 ehird, speed, price, low noise level, choose two. 18:29:34 I'm satisfied with the quietness of mine 18:29:43 AnMaster: Speed & low noise level. What's the price? :-) 18:30:04 My current machine makes less than half the noise of the previous one :-P 18:30:23 I did rip out the stock HD 4870 cooler though 18:31:14 Deewiant: Can you watercool these things? ;-) 18:31:21 I guess, why not 18:31:27 I am so not going to try that. 18:31:29 I've never messed with non-air-cooling 18:31:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:31:41 ehird, cost of whatever two rooms cost around where you live + one of those fancy terminal extender things from blackbox (seen in ads, with happy customers talking about how much better it is not having to have dust collecting computers in clean rooms or whatever, and "contact for price") + noisy computer + monitor + keyboard + mouse 18:32:07 AnMaster: lulz 18:32:24 a CD drive at the same place as the terminal might be useful too, in case you are lazy it would be a requirement even 18:32:36 (depending on how often you use CDs) 18:33:19 Just use a pneumatic tube system to transport the CD to the drive 18:33:29 Deewiant: how loud would a '512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3' be 18:33:37 ehird: Beats me, google for reviews 18:33:39 ehird, something like that listed on http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/KVM/n-4294964384/p-0 maybe 18:33:43 Deewiant: Bah :-) 18:33:59 ehird: I only know about stuff I've considered buying :-P 18:34:06 price doesn't seem _too_ bad in fact.. 18:34:38 Deewiant: Wish you hadn't told me this, now I'm out of ideas :D 18:35:00 ehird, idea: enormous external headsink. Imagine this: an external 3 kg headsink on the top of the computer case... 18:35:11 passive air cooling 18:35:12 :D 18:35:24 I wonder why watercooling never comes standard 18:35:25 ehird: Well, I decided early on that I'd get approximately the best gfx card 18:35:37 So I only really looked at the 4870 and the GeForce GTX 260/280 18:35:50 ehird, because when things go bad they go really bad. That may be why water cooling is not very popular. 18:35:53 And the former was 100€ or so cheaper so it was an easy decision :-P 18:35:56 I may be wrong though... 18:36:03 Deewiant: Yar, it's just that one airplane-noised computer was enough for a lifetime for me. 18:36:35 ehird: I've had a lot of those, I think my current one is simultaneously the quietest and most powerful machine I've ever had, by far :-) 18:36:43 I mean a failed fan is much less of a problem, computer will detect that it is overheating and then shut itself off at some point. A lot of modern computers do that at least. 18:36:59 Deewiant: Got a microphone with good enough quality to give an accurate picture of the loudness? :P 18:37:01 handled by mobo/bios or such 18:37:12 ehird: No microphone at all, sorry 18:37:29 Deep lake water cooling uses cold water pumped from the bottom of a lake as a heat sink for climate control systems^W^W^Wcomputers. 18:37:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_lake_water_cooling 18:37:38 that sounds... 18:38:22 ehird, interesting, but is it used for computers? yet? 18:38:26 AnMaster: No. :-P 18:38:30 oh 18:38:31 ehird: I can't hear it at all when I've got earphones+music on, unless I explicitly try to listen for it 18:38:42 Yes, well, I don't do headphones [as yesterday] 18:39:01 You broke them, or what? ;-) 18:39:19 Deewiant: can't think properly with them 18:39:59 I tend to just turn sounds off and keep them on :-P 18:40:14 If I find myself needing extra-effective thinking, that is 18:40:23 I can actually hear the fans in my computer even with ear protectors (or whatever the name was). Though the ear protectors do help reduce it to a acceptable level... 18:40:35 an* 18:40:57 Bah, computers suck. 18:41:42 Hmm, earphones refer specifically to earbuds, I didn't mean those 18:41:42 Deewiant, about headphones, with no sound playing my headphones hardly reduce outside noise at all. But your does? 18:42:03 Well, a bit, since they're circumaural 18:42:10 Not much though 18:42:11 Deewiant, earbuds? is that before they become earflowers??? 18:42:18 :-D 18:42:26 Haha, never even realized that 18:42:36 AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/IPod_Earbuds.JPG 18:44:30 hm... when I click that link I get a message from konq saying "Tjänsten "/home/anmaster/.local/share/applications/gimp.desktop" är felaktig.", weird.. 18:44:40 copy pasting url works 18:44:42 Tjänst? 18:44:45 service 18:44:50 Right, I knew that. 18:44:56 why did you ask then? 18:45:00 :P 18:45:01 I don't know. 18:45:02 :-P 18:45:05 k 18:45:13 I didn't know it in time. 18:45:21 anyway about that pic... aha, those yeah 18:45:31 never heard the name "earbuds" for them before 18:45:40 What else? 18:45:49 never heard a English name I think 18:45:51 for them 18:45:56 :-) 18:46:15 anyway, "earbuds" always fall out of my ears... 18:46:16 http://www.redtower.hu/kepek/upload/2008-09/sennheiser_hd555.jpg is what I've got 18:46:21 very irritating 18:46:23 earbuds or earphones 18:46:29 AnMaster: you didn't put them in deep enough 18:46:36 if you're not getting uncomfortable ear damage they'll fall out 18:46:47 I get uncomfortable ear damage and they still fall out 18:46:48 oh right 18:46:51 Deewiant: I have ones pretty like that except more shit 18:47:02 :-P 18:47:12 ehird, that explains it, I tried to not cause damage to myself I guess. 18:47:31 Deewiant, AKG 240 Studio are my headphones, google for them 18:47:47 discontinued :D 18:47:49 yep 18:47:50 http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,252,pid,252,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html 18:47:51 I know 18:47:59 they look funny 18:48:12 how do you mean? 18:48:16 My ears are too small for headphones 18:48:16 :-D 18:48:18 They seem a bit small: are those circumaural or supra-aural? 18:48:27 the url looks funny I'd say, but the actual headphones? no 18:48:49 Deewiant, I would answer if I knew what "circumaural" or "supra-aural" meant... 18:49:11 AnMaster: "Around ear" or "on top of ear" 18:49:33 Deewiant, diameter for the round areas is approx. 10 cm 18:49:35 I.e. does your entire ear fit inside them 18:50:21 I guess that'd make them circumaural 18:50:23 Deewiant, that is outer diameter of the padded area. inner diameter is ~6.5 cm 18:50:39 slightly more, 6.75 probably 18:51:34 Deewiant, anyway they are comfortable and the sound is high quality, which is what I care about 18:52:19 and it seems to fit just around my ear 18:52:33 I'm quite satisfied with Grado Labs SR60 18:52:35 (just checked) 18:54:39 btw, anyone remember that google shell thingy? 18:55:25 no? 18:57:32 Deewiant, ehird ? 18:57:38 What 18:57:46 ehird, remember that google shell thingy? 18:57:49 What 18:57:54 guess not 18:57:56 http://goosh.org/ 18:58:08 (needs javascript yes..) 18:59:33 oh 18:59:40 it sucks 19:01:15 ehird, yeah, but fun idea 19:01:25 not a very good implementation indeed 19:01:32 cd semantics is broken for example 19:02:41 Why can't I just have speed, power and quietness :-P 19:02:45 AND A FREAKING PONY. 19:03:44 ehird, because life sucks? 19:03:52 It should unsuck. 19:04:07 I'm afraid it may be stuck... 19:18:59 "Currently Mausezahn is only available for Linux platforms. Please do NOT PORT Mausezahn to Windows!" 19:19:05 Insecure much? 19:22:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:29:10 hrrm 19:30:45 is there any way to pass a parameter list as a argument to a macro? example: I want a macro to declare a prototype (lets not discuss why right now), and I want to do something like #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname (arguments) 19:31:05 ais523, this sounds like something you may know? 19:31:08 hi btw ais523 19:31:33 AnMaster: in C99, yes 19:31:57 there's a __VA_ARGS__ keyword 19:32:02 ais523, ah nice, yes I'm doing C99 atm in fact (and yes I still have a reason to do prototypes in a strange way) 19:32:03 actually, I'm not sure about those trailing underscores 19:32:08 hm.. 19:32:23 there's a gcc extension, ,##__VA_ARGS__ 19:32:39 which removes the comma immediately before the variable arg list if there are no variable arguments 19:33:10 the traditional C89 trick, by the way, is to use an extra pair of parens 19:33:22 #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname arguments 19:33:31 and always enclose the arguments in a second pair of parens when passing them to the macro 19:33:34 ah that may work fine 19:33:43 as in MAKEPROTO(main, int, (int argc, char** argv)) 19:33:56 as for why: If it was C++ this would have been templates... 19:34:17 So why not make it C++? ;-P 19:34:49 Deewiant, I'll let you figure that out yourself... 19:43:28 hm ... 19:43:33 #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \ 19:43:33 m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args 19:43:40 why doesn't it expand CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT I wonder... 19:43:48 yes it is defined before calling the macro 19:43:51 Macros aren't recursive 19:43:54 though after the macro was defined 19:44:07 Deewiant, how is that relevant? 19:44:09 #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace 19:44:23 AnMaster: I mean they're not expanded recursively 19:44:43 so how to get it to work? hm 19:44:43 The contents of the macro aren't rechecked to see if they contain another macro 19:44:47 #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \ 19:44:47 m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args 19:44:48 #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace 19:44:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:44:59 CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(bool, setup, (void), FUNGE_ATTR_FAST) 19:45:10 Deewiant, I see hm 19:49:03 Deewiant: no, they are 19:49:04 it's just that 19:49:06 it'll turn into 19:49:13 cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam 19:49:14 e 19:49:18 which isn't a defined macro name 19:49:21 ehird: What, they are? 19:49:28 Deewiant: of course 19:49:31 that's why you can call a macro in a macro 19:51:03 I thought the expansion was done at #define time which'd have been why define FOO BAR and BAR FOO doesn't loop infinitely 19:51:07 But evidently not 19:52:18 I think there's recursion detection 19:52:26 it gets even more complex when ## is involved 19:52:33 ## has some weird rules with respect to macros 19:52:50 Oh noes, Home of the Underdogs is down 19:54:14 ok so why does it turn into cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam 19:54:23 AnMaster: Because that's how ## works. 19:54:26 hm 19:54:27 ok 19:54:34 Deewiant: pass ing CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT as an argument to that macro 19:54:39 s/ing// 19:54:45 s/Deewiant/AnMaster/ 19:54:51 wtf did I do there? 19:55:01 ah yes that should work 19:55:14 the problem is that the ## is happening before the #define expansion 19:55:34 aha 19:55:59 AnMaster: it helps to have the standard in front of you: if you search for n1124.pdf, you'll get one of the drafts proposed as an expansion to C99 19:56:08 which contains all the C99 stuff you need to care about 19:56:24 the drafts are available for free even though the standard itself isn't 19:56:37 -!- tombom has joined. 19:56:42 ais523, I have C99:TC3 (that is C99 + proposed bug fixes iirc) 19:56:54 ah, yes 19:58:18 need to pass it to the top macro even it seems 19:59:19 (I was using another macro calling the first one to define the various types, then calling that macro several times for the different variants 20:02:09 error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘*’ token 20:02:10 hm 20:02:38 ah I see 20:02:57 (missing "struct") 20:09:04 ais523, how mad would you say that including an internal header twice but with different defines to create two different implementations is? 20:09:32 I'm not sure if it's mad or not, I know I've done it lots of times but I think I'm mad too 20:09:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:10:38 carchive works using a program that recursively includes itself with different defines 20:11:23 carchive? 20:11:40 it's basically a program that inputs a set of files 20:11:47 and creates a C program that reconstructs them 20:12:04 it's a self-extracting archive program, just in portable C rather than as a Windows .exe 20:12:14 I wrote it a while back, I've never used it 20:13:19 heh 20:13:50 I was planning to use it to distribute C-INTERCAL 20:14:00 but pax is better for that, and besides carchive doesn't handle directories 20:18:24 oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise? <<< basically curveball, but also a fourth dimension in color and sound. 20:19:18 oklopol_, how would the sounds bit work (from a user perspective)? 20:19:43 so usually you'd try to stay in the same position as the ball until it turns your color and the sound has the correct pitch 20:19:48 would I sing to control the position of the paddle in the 4th dimension or what? 20:19:59 no two joysticks or smth 20:20:04 hm 20:21:31 oklopol_, what do you mean same position as the ball? And what is "curveball"? When I google I get stuff related to baseball hm. 20:21:43 http://www.google.com/search?q=curveball 20:21:53 Deewiant, so it is the baseball one then? 20:21:58 Top one is http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/curveball 20:21:59 read what I just said duh 20:22:13 Deewiant, not here. Here top one is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball 20:22:15 curveball is a flash game, and same position means you'd stay in the same 3d coords as the ball, in the cube 20:22:26 Deewiant, also I don't have flash as you know 20:22:28 of course, then there's 4d rotation of the cube.... 20:22:33 AnMaster: Actually I didn't know 20:22:51 Or maybe I did but I didn't consider it important enough to remember 20:23:01 Deewiant, meh, ehird claims I mentioned it millions of times before every time I mention it. 20:23:12 you can check out the tesseract rotation animations on wikipedia 20:23:14 so I thought "lets avoid that for once" 20:24:46 is not having flash an ideology issue, or why should people assume you're never going to take the 3 minutes it takes to install it? 20:25:57 oklopol_: partly ideology, partly security (it's the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence), and often people have a system it doesn't work on 20:26:16 also, not having Flash is really useful, do you have any idea how annoying Flash is? 20:26:34 also i asked a prof if they'd organize an exam on schaum's mathematical handbook, and they were like all philosophical "hmm interesting idea, if done right... but no, of course not" 20:28:30 i consider flash the cornerstone of internet, internet is mostly used to browse for flash content, then using it. 20:29:49 i guess i'd have to be a *nix user to know why it's annoying 20:30:01 heh 20:30:07 (joke is i am, this is my ubu machine) 20:31:39 maybe i should stop my mindless rambling and read about vector spaces 20:32:14 hm 20:32:24 cfunge_mempool_priv.h:90: warning: no previous prototype for ‘cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT_setup’ 20:32:25 what 20:32:32 #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace 20:32:33 #include "cfunge_mempool_priv.h" 20:32:49 then I'm calling a macro like: 20:32:51 (and drink the rest of my beers) 20:32:54 bool CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(setup, CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT) (void) 20:33:08 AnMaster: you need two layers of indirection 20:33:10 the macro is defined like: 20:33:10 #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) \ 20:33:10 cf_mempool_ ## m_variant ## _ ## m_funcname 20:33:21 ais523, hmm... 20:33:28 you want #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC1(m_funcname, m_variant) 20:33:35 why is that? 20:33:36 and put the new value in FUNC1 20:33:48 is it alcoholism when you can't finish your beers and therefor need to drink for multiple weekends on end? 20:33:54 oklopol_: I don't know 20:33:56 *therefore 20:34:34 well you can generalize that and answer for another activity 20:34:48 AnMaster: weirdness with ## and macros 20:35:00 mhm 20:35:13 I thought the double macro thing was needed for # only 20:38:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:05:47 ais523, can't you use macros inside typedefs? 21:05:58 typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) { 21:05:58 CF_GHT_KEY p_key; /**< The key. */ 21:05:58 } CF_GHT_NAME(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key_t); 21:06:00 gives: 21:06:06 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h(5): error: expected a ")" 21:06:06 typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) { 21:06:06 ^ 21:06:08 from icc 21:06:10 and: 21:06:15 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h:5: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘,’ token 21:06:17 from gcc 21:06:24 ais523, wondering why... 21:06:44 AnMaster: Did you run gcc -E? 21:06:48 Or cpp or whatever 21:06:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:06:59 AnMaster: typedefs are compile-time, macros are preprocess-time, they don't interact 21:07:06 hm ok 21:07:32 Deewiant, not yet, because for this file I need to pass lots of -I and so on, will do that next 21:07:50 typedef struct CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(s_, fspace, hash_key) { 21:07:50 fungeSpaceHashKey p_key; 21:07:50 } CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(ght_, fspace, hash_key_t); 21:07:52 blergh 21:07:56 :-P 21:07:58 that is the preprocessed result 21:08:09 oh a typo in the macro name 21:08:10 right 21:08:55 gcc went mad 21:08:59 line numbers are all wrong 21:09:03 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h:97: warning: type defaults to ‘int’ in declaration of ‘ght_hash_key_t’ 21:09:08 that line is inside a comment... 21:09:17 huh 21:09:43 #line somewhere? 21:10:27 Deewiant, well probably, the actual error was 5 lines away 21:15:13 so who wants to know how I fixed synta 21:15:13 x 21:15:36 ehird, syntax of what? 21:15:42 syntax 21:16:22 what is "syntax" in this case? The name of some language or what? 21:16:48 Syntax 21:23:24 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest94576. 21:24:21 yes tell me!" 21:24:51 haha: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/first-sale-president-obama-and-queen-england 21:24:57 -!- Guest94576 has changed nick to M0ny. 21:25:09 it seems President Obama gave an iPod with music on to the Queen of England 21:25:16 and nobody's entirely sure if that's legal or not 21:25:24 due to copyright law being so broken 21:25:34 Sue Obama!!!11one 21:26:11 well, all that's been deduced so far is that the Queen didn't break UK law as a result, because she's the Queen and can do what she wants 21:26:21 :-D 21:27:05 I don't quite like the idea of a legal system where that 'because' always applies but in this case I'm amused 21:27:18 anyone here an expert on vector spaces or should i just highlight oerjan 21:27:34 Start with your question and then highlight oerjan 21:27:40 hmm not a bad idea 21:27:45 Say, if nobody answers within a few minutes 21:27:53 Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed 21:27:59 oklopol_, you already highlighted oerjan, except that he's not here 21:28:01 And also, oerjan doesn't seem to be here, so you're screwed anyway 21:28:02 although she can't introduce new laws, just reject the ones Parliament came up with 21:28:44 was just wondering could there be an infinite vector space for which there is no linearly independent subset which generates the space 21:29:15 it's just proved for finite vector spaces that there's always such a set 21:29:18 Intuition says 'no' 21:29:27 But I guess with the AoC anything can happen ;-P 21:30:45 well yes intuition says no, i just don't feel like proving it myself so i was hoping for a shortcut 21:31:00 probably just notational convenience it's only proved for finites 21:31:15 err 21:31:17 well okay 21:31:35 "generation" means linear combinations of *finite* subsets at a time 21:32:02 Hmm 21:32:23 so if there are linearly dependent vectors used to generate a vector in the space, then you could just use the other vectors they are linearly dependent with 21:32:48 With an infinite number of combinations... I don't see why generation would be impossible 21:33:23 oh waiyt 21:33:24 *wait 21:33:51 this is about a *maximal* generating subset 21:34:55 o 21:34:55 o 21:34:55 o 21:35:01 21:27 ais523: Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed 21:35:04 yerk, seriously? 21:35:09 I'm going to become queen then kill everyone. 21:35:14 :-D 21:35:20 ehird: htf are you going to become Queen? 21:35:26 ais523: SHUT UP 21:35:43 I just need a time machine 21:35:49 and a serial cable connected to reality 21:35:52 hm 21:36:02 having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well 21:36:05 I suggest something with more bandwidth 21:36:20 Rewriting reality over a serial cable is likely to take a long time 21:36:25 But I guess that's why you need the time machine 21:36:43 ais523: er, are you sure? I mean, you can go and change everything by going back a few million years 21:36:48 but can you make subtle changes just because you're there? 21:36:53 having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well <-- only if you have the Ultimate Edition of it. 21:36:56 I don't think that's a given 21:37:25 Well, there's not much sense in talking about time machines unless you've defined the rules under which they operate 21:37:37 Given that in the real world, there are no such rules since they don't operate. :-P 21:37:40 or even if you've defined the rules 21:37:56 That's a matter of opinion. 21:37:59 Deewiant: time travel's been proven to be impossible? 21:38:08 since when 21:38:17 Deewiant: true. 21:38:50 ehird: Assumed impossible until proven possible. 21:38:53 ehird, " That's a matter of opinion." 21:39:25 Deewiant: Yes, well, that's a rather ridiculous view to take, it's not like there's no viable theories under which time travel is possible 21:39:29 "(the UK, after all, lacks a fair use doctrine)" o_O 21:40:37 there are no viable theories under which time travel is possible. 21:40:39 ehird: Viable? Do tell 21:40:48 Deewiant: It should be noted that I'm talking shit. 21:40:56 oh 21:40:59 You should know that I do that all the time by now. 21:41:00 Duly noted. 21:41:22 suddenly i decide to believe you 21:41:30 [yeah I'm the first poo that can talk isn't that amazing] 21:41:33 ↑ comedy 21:41:40 xxxxxxXXD 21:41:42 Next time you say something interesting, I'll tell you you're full of shit and you can't refute me. 21:42:19 Deewiant: are _you_ an instance of feces that can audibly communicate? no? then shut up. 21:42:28 kthx 21:42:33 What's an 'instance of faeces' 21:42:46 Is it like a crock? 21:42:52 according to south park the first talking poo was bono 21:42:58 If you want to be all hoi polloi about it, Deewiant, sure. 21:43:07 oklopol_: ++ 21:43:26 ehird: Ah, a sophisticated piece of shit. 21:44:17 In December 1982, an 8-year-old boy, Jeffrey R. Yee, supposedly received a letter from U.S. President Ronald Reagan congratulating him on a worldwide record of 6,131,940 points, a score only possible if the player has passed the Split-Screen Level.[16] Whether or not this event happened as described has remained in heated debate among video-game circles since its supposed occurrence. In September 1983, Walter Day, chief scorekeeper at Twin Galaxies, took 21:44:20 the US National Video Game Team on a tour of the East Coast to visit video game players who claimed they could get through the Split-Screen. No video game player could demonstrate this ability. In 1999, Billy Mitchell offered $100,000 to anyone who could provably pass through the Split-Screen Level before January 1, 2000; the prize went unclaimed.[16] 21:44:24 ↑ why don't they just make an ai to play it 21:44:26 :| 21:44:41 which game is that? 21:44:45 Pac-Man 21:44:52 ah 21:44:57 and what's the split-screen level? 21:45:00 Is there seriously a special "Split-Screen" level? 21:45:04 Sgeo: yes 21:45:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Split_Screen_in_Pac_Man.gif 21:45:08 level 256 21:45:09 It happens when the level counter rolls over 21:45:13 land of corrupted memory 21:45:20 "The 256th split-screen level can not be completed because of a software bug. " 21:45:21 oh, so it wasn't deliberate? 21:45:26 OR CAN IT ? ? ? 21:45:30 :-P 21:45:43 Pac-Man technically has no ending—as long as the player keeps at least one life, they should be able to continue playing indefinitely. However, because of a bug in the routine that draws the fruit, the right side of the 256th level becomes a garbled mess of text and symbols, rendering the level impossible to pass by legitimate means. Normally, no more than seven fruits are displayed at any one time, but when the internal level counter (stored in a sing 21:45:46 le byte) reaches 255, the subroutine erroneously causes this value to "roll over" to zero before drawing the fruit. This causes the routine to attempt to draw 256 fruits, which corrupts the bottom of the screen and the whole right half of the maze with seemingly random symbols.[14] 21:45:53 I want two hundred and fifty six fruits. 21:45:59 :-D 21:46:09 "as well as allowing players to see what would happen if the 256th level is cleared (the game loops back to the first level, causing fruits and intermissions to display as before, but with the ghosts retaining their higher speed and invulnerability to power pellets from the later stages)" 21:46:11 booooring 21:46:43 "Despite claims that someone with enough knowledge of the maze pattern could play through the level, it is technically impossible to complete since the graphical corruption eliminates most of the dots on the right half of the maze. A few edible dots are scattered in the corrupted area, and these dots reset when the player loses a life (unlike in the uncorrupted areas), but these are insufficient to complete the level" 21:46:45 god, why is this so lame 21:46:56 I was hoping for something like that memory-corruption tron thing 21:46:59 Bugs aren't usually particularly exciting 21:47:24 someone link to that tron thing, ais523? 21:47:37 I don't know it 21:48:26 ais523: yes you do, it was that thing on an old console where they made a lightcycle game and the AI shot the wall 21:48:31 I was hoping the split screen would be something like two pacman games with one set of controls 21:48:34 and started shooting corrupted memory 21:48:36 remember? 21:48:39 ehird: no I don't 21:48:48 >_< You said it was great when I linked it ages ago 21:48:49 I never knew, stop trying to claim I knew something when I didn't 21:49:17 You did know you've just forgotten because when I find the links I'll prove it via the logs :-P 21:50:57 ok, possibly the stupidest image on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Win3x_Black_Screen_of_Death.gif 21:51:18 "Screenshot in Virtual PC." :-) 21:51:38 not only that, it's an /animated/ screenshot 21:51:41 Even a gif animation, yes. 21:51:42 notice the blinking cursor? 21:51:51 I'm not even sure an animated screenshot makes sense 21:54:28 If it weren't for that, it'd be truly pointless 21:55:18 if that's not art then *i'm* not art. 21:56:43 so 21:56:46 oh, it's art, alright 21:56:50 i'm going to play frogger now 21:57:27 also turns out it's a proof in algebra II that infinite spaces always have an independent basis too 21:57:59 how wonderful 21:58:08 :-) 21:59:11 well "basic algebra 2" 22:00:23 i'm not gonna get to "algebra" in years 22:05:33 * kerlo realizes that the number 13 has magical being-close-to-100-when-multiplied-by-8 powers 22:05:52 :( 22:05:54 your output: 22:05:55 Hello, world! 22:05:55 expected: 22:05:55 Hello, world! 22:06:19 [\r\n]-issue? 22:06:24 Propably 22:06:38 Or trailing spaces 22:06:44 Or those spaces differ 22:07:07 i doubt latter 22:07:14 As do I, but it's possible 22:07:16 FireFly: no 22:07:22 sure. 22:07:23 anagolf strips whitespace 22:07:27 FireFly: so wutz the code? 22:07:28 wuts up 22:07:29 I don't like non-ASCII characters all that much. 22:07:29 Hm 22:07:31 oh anagolf 22:07:37 rights 22:07:47 Well, are you supposed to print \n or not? 22:07:56 One of our automagical-checkery programming homeworks was "do matrix inversion in C++", and the results-checker checked for exact match, so you had to perform all the operations in exactly the right order, to get the floating-point inaccuracies done the same way. 22:07:58 FireFly: it doesnt matter 22:07:59 it strips whitespace i hear 22:07:59 its stripped 22:08:01 what's your code 22:08:03 Hmh 22:08:16 Then my Befunge should be correct 22:08:31 fizzie: show it 22:08:35 "%hpvs{$0sppiL"v 22:08:35 <<<<<<,-4_@#:<<< 22:08:38 ...show it? 22:08:46 fizzie: how is that short 22:08:47 :| 22:08:50 er 22:08:51 FireFly: 22:08:52 Well 22:09:00 oh nick errorance 22:09:06 I couln't think of anything shorter 22:09:15 Deewiant: o_o 22:09:19 ? 22:09:28 22:08 FireFly: "%hpvs{$0sppiL"v 22:09:29 22:08 FireFly: <<<<<<,-4_@#:<<< 22:09:33 he's trying to golf hello world 22:09:38 Meh 22:09:41 Sorry :( 22:09:46 Btw 22:09:47 :P 22:09:56 a"!dlrow ,olleH"dk,@ 22:10:00 Without the letters "H", "e" etc. in the source 22:10:02 That's shorter isn't it :-P 22:10:02 ^ 22:10:13 "Helloworldless Hello world" 22:10:13 Oh 22:10:27 just do 1+ before outpu 22:10:28 t 22:10:32 and subtract one from the chars 22:10:32 or we 22:10:36 Well 22:10:40 I did a similar idea 22:10:41 FireFly: No newline in that 22:10:48 4- is just as good as 1+. 22:10:49 But -1 doesn't work 22:11:02 Not +1 either IIRC 22:11:09 Eg. you get chars that are forbitten 22:11:16 Such as e -> d 22:11:26 forbidden* 22:11:35 err aren't there 16 numbers in befunge 22:11:44 you have 31 possibilities 22:12:07 i have a hunch one of them doesn't have the illegal chars 22:12:11 oklopol_: e and d are numbers in hello world 22:12:17 Yeah, and -4 works for me 22:12:19 Yes, well, if that 4- in the code works, I don't see why it matters which one you pick. 22:12:21 "e and d are numbers" 22:12:24 so you only have 14 working numbers 22:12:24 ais523: err right 22:12:29 yes, i'm an idiot 22:12:30 O RLY 22:12:35 ehird: we're talking about Befunge-98 22:12:41 which uses hex digits 22:12:48 so yes, e and d are indeed numbers 22:12:49 this is in a string 22:13:00 ehird: the aim's to write a helloworldless hello world 22:13:01 Characters are also numbers FWIW 22:13:04 I know 22:13:15 fizzie: oh right didn't even read the source, assumed ehird readit :P 22:13:17 ehird: And you can't put "d+" in code either, since, you know, it's a d. 22:13:18 But the letters e and d are not numbers :P 22:13:19 *read it 22:13:43 how are e and d not numbers 22:13:55 kinda like 5 and 2 aren't numbers? 22:14:21 e is approximately 2.718281828. 22:14:34 e (hex) = 14 (decimal) 22:14:38 yes and d is 13 22:14:47 we all know hex, fizzie 22:14:59 oklopol_: Why are you telling me this? I'm not teaching you hex. 22:15:04 apparently apart from ehird 22:15:11 i know this 22:15:14 fizzie: did we make the same joke? 22:15:15 but you said e in a string 22:15:19 it's a letter there 22:15:21 context dammit 22:15:33 or did you just not get it was making one 22:15:57 oklopol_: I thought you might, but that's the problem with randomness: you can never be sure. 22:16:30 So, IMO my code should validate 22:16:32 fizzie: you can indeed never be sure; doesn't mean you don't have to guess correctly 22:19:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:34:52 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:39:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:42:08 Deewiant, btw exact bounds will be a compile time option for cfunge 22:42:09 :P 22:42:55 oh, so you can have incorrect y output but faster speed? 22:43:44 ais523, most programs doesn't depend on the bounds shrinking when space is written 22:44:02 and even though it isn't complete yet it already slows down execution... 22:44:15 without bounds: real 0m0.036s 22:44:29 that is, with old bounds that never shrink 22:44:42 with partly implemented exact bounds: real 0m0.046s 22:45:01 average of 20 runs 22:45:40 (with an initial run before to reduce "not in memory cache"-effect) 22:46:17 that is also redirecting output to /dev/null to reduce factors such as terminal 22:46:25 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 22:47:15 (output to terminal adds about 0.020 in fully buffered mode, and 0.050 in the default line buffered mode) 22:47:17 ais523, Å 22:47:24 s/Å/^/ 22:47:39 well, ok 22:49:35 yay, Google INTERCAL style guide back up 22:49:47 ais523, I have a local copy from google cache saved here 22:49:50 but where? 22:49:51 yep 22:49:56 and same place as before 22:50:00 mhm 22:50:11 http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html 22:50:30 I grabbed a copy from the live.com cache, it wasn't in the Google or Yahoo caches for some reason when I checked 22:50:32 http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ <-- ? 22:50:44 AnMaster: they seem to be the same website 22:50:49 wait, no 22:51:02 the second one's just the one that mentions INTERCAL whenever you ask it a question 22:51:56 ais523, it doesn't 22:52:00 "CADIE is getting tired of your simple requests. Please request something more challenging." 22:52:06 but most of the time yes 22:52:07 well, not always, just usually 22:52:25 incidentally, much of that INTERCAL style guide is in fact very sane 22:52:31 most of the decisions are justified well 22:52:37 "The bit-shifting code necessary for your request would actually be easier to do in INTERCAL. Have you considered changing languages?" 22:52:37 :D 22:52:57 wow, the person who wrote that actualy knew enough INTERCAL to make that statement 22:53:13 bit-shifting is one of the only things which is actually occasionally easier in INTERCAL 22:53:17 in a few cases 22:53:17 ais523, some responses contain embedded intercal even 22:53:27 too long to paste here 22:53:29 what, really? 22:53:33 paste it anyway, pastebin if necessary 22:53:57 oh, I just got some 22:54:12 http://rafb.net/p/tNy0hj51.html 22:54:12 DO :3 <- '"'"'"'".1$':1~#32768'"~"#1109$#1"'$':1~#128'"~#2735'$':1~"#546$#0"'"~"#43679"'$':1~"#1365$#0"'"~"#1023$#63"'$'"'"'".1$#0"~#34959'$':1~"#0$#1170"'"~#11007'$':1~"#0$#2925"'"~"#2005$#255"' 22:54:14 there are some 22:54:22 ais523, that's yet another one 22:54:28 what was the message connected to it? 22:54:32 and for which language 22:54:41 "JavaScript is obsolete and inefficient. CADIE thinks you should use INTERCAL.", and you can guess the language 22:54:49 "Seriously, get back to work." <-- haha 22:54:54 it isn't yet another, that one's in your paste 22:55:15 anyway, that big expression, let me run it through C-INTERCAL's expression explainer 22:55:21 thanks to the work by Joris, it's quite good now 22:55:29