←2009-06-09 2009-06-10 2009-06-11→ ↑2009 ↑all
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02:31:47 <GregorR> Now I have a kitty AND a wearable computer.
02:38:02 <pikhq> Aren't you just a budding evil genius?
02:39:03 <GregorR> Evil geniuses have evil cats. Tia is just neutral.
02:39:16 <pikhq> You have started down the road.
02:39:25 * pikhq pets kitty.
02:39:35 <oerjan> chaotic neutral, yessir
02:39:52 <pikhq> oerjan: Like all cats.
02:40:02 <pikhq> Emphasis on the chaos.
02:40:18 <oerjan> mhm
02:41:12 <oerjan> GregorR: what you should look out for is kick the dog moments. which probably cats don't help avoid
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05:44:36 <lifthrasiir> it seems that my server got down just because bind is (mistakenly) shut down. :( all is fine now. sorry for inconvenience.
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06:17:29 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.prq.se/?p=colo&intl=1
06:17:38 <bsmntbombdood> 100 megabits for $2000/month
06:17:40 <bsmntbombdood> is that a lot?
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06:35:24 <MizardX> By about 50x :P
06:36:05 <MizardX> Oh. Server included. Then I don't know.
06:36:34 <bsmntbombdood> server's not included
06:36:38 <bsmntbombdood> just 4u of rackspace
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06:39:01 <MizardX> It's far out of my price range anyhow.
06:40:40 <GregorR> http://localhost/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
06:40:49 <lifthrasiir> localhost?
06:40:54 <GregorR> lawl
06:41:01 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
06:47:12 <psygnisfive> php now has goto. D:
06:47:49 <lament> yay!
06:48:56 <lifthrasiir> psygnisfive: lol, that made into php 5.3?
06:49:02 <psygnisfive> yep!
06:50:02 <lifthrasiir> php was originally messy, but now it's becoming messier XD
06:55:16 -!- warrie has set topic: Deep European German Christian German Mole Christian Good Machine Christian Scottish Talk Machine Christian Machine Amusing Without Sad | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
06:55:36 <psygnisfive> what
06:57:33 <warrie> "Deep" means "hello", "European" means "all", "German" means "you", "Christian" means ";", "Mole" means "is/does what", "Good" means "good", "Machine" means "I", "Scottish" means "that which I demand that you be", "Talk" means "talk", "Amusing" means "amusing", "Without" means "without", and "Sad" means "sad".
06:58:01 <warrie> So it's "Hi y'all; how are you; I'm fine; talk to me; I'm bored".
06:58:17 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: No. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
06:58:34 <psygnisfive> "No." means "shut the fuck up"
06:58:45 <psygnisfive> So it's "shut the fuck up"
06:58:53 <warrie> Mmkz.
07:04:59 <bsmntbombdood> MizardX: it's a lot of fucking bandwidth
07:05:29 <MizardX> I have 100 mbit uncapped... for 1/50th of the price.
07:05:53 <bsmntbombdood> MizardX: try to push 30 terabyte/month through it and get back to me
07:09:30 <bsmntbombdood> also, where the hell do you live
07:10:06 <MizardX> Sweden.
07:10:35 <bsmntbombdood> i get 1.5 mbit
07:10:58 <bsmntbombdood> on a good day
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07:14:47 <MizardX> I can get up to maybe 8-9 mb/s with 2-4 torrents running. But then I can't watch any HD movies without it getting out of sync.
07:15:00 <bsmntbombdood> is that bits or bytes?
07:15:09 <MizardX> megabytes/sec
07:15:11 <bsmntbombdood> god
07:15:53 <bsmntbombdood> i can expect a torrent to download at about 120 kilobytes/second
07:18:27 <MizardX> baud... is that bits/second?
07:19:13 <GregorR> It's the olde spelling of "bad"
07:19:25 <GregorR> GET IT LAWL
07:19:26 <MizardX> Ah. pulses/second.
07:19:54 * MizardX ignores the pun
07:22:04 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if it's too late to start a movie
07:24:10 <warrie> The World Wide Web needs no bandwidth.
07:24:26 <warrie> And by "no bandwidth", I mean under a kilobyte per second.
07:24:58 <warrie> And by "the World Wide Web", I mean hand-written HTML.
07:25:19 <lifthrasiir> hand-written HTML and bunches of CSS.
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07:42:52 <warrie> As long as it's hand-written CSS.
07:48:03 <MizardX> newlines forbidden
07:55:47 <warrie> They're fine as long as they're hand-typed.
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09:39:22 <psygnisfive> i wonder if it would be possible to treat all functions like continuations or callbacks or something...
09:39:54 <psygnisfive> where like
09:40:51 <psygnisfive> a; x = f(); b is equivalent to a; f(x -> b)
09:40:56 <psygnisfive> where x -> b is the callback function
09:41:45 <psygnisfive> so you wouldn't ever get hangs on long functions ...
09:42:13 <fizzie> That sounds like writing code in continuation-passing style.
09:42:19 <psygnisfive> sort of, yeah.
09:42:38 <psygnisfive> i mean, i use callbacks a lot in JS, right
09:42:53 <psygnisfive> we use them a lot of ajax queries
09:43:01 <psygnisfive> because you dont want your browser to lock on a lock query
09:43:05 <psygnisfive> so you do it asynchronously
09:43:27 <psygnisfive> the browser just calls the callback whenever the http request returns
09:43:41 <psygnisfive> so you dont lock the browser waiting for the server to respond
09:43:46 <psygnisfive> and the page doesnt lock either
09:44:00 <psygnisfive> so i figure, why not do that for all function calls, period
09:44:27 <psygnisfive> so that a sequence of function calls is like multiple nested callbacks
09:45:15 <psygnisfive> and because its all callback based, you can spin off the things into threads relatively easily
09:45:38 <psygnisfive> i mean, then you get concurrency issues, granted, so itd work ideally in functional languages, but
09:46:36 <fizzie> The Scheme interpreter I wrote in Prolog was written in CPS, since it made implementing call/cc so trivial.
09:46:50 <psygnisfive> aha.
09:47:03 <psygnisfive> im not sure if its technically cps, nor do i know how you CODE in cps, so...
09:48:01 <psygnisfive> hm, you're right, it is CPS i think
09:48:21 <psygnisfive> hm.
09:49:20 <fizzie> If your functions never return, just call a provided "continuation", then I think it is CPS. Or some sort of mixture, anyway; when writing something like JavaScript, I don't think you want to replace all + operators with a call to "function add(a, b, k) { k(a + b); }".
09:49:39 <psygnisfive> well, no,
09:49:51 <psygnisfive> you probably wouldnt want to do THAT, because + is a primitive
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09:50:17 <psygnisfive> but more importantly, + is trivial, and should never hang ever.
09:51:53 <psygnisfive> yeah, i think you're right, it is cps.
09:52:11 <psygnisfive> so it might be useful, in general, to just have cps built in to all function calls
09:54:02 <fizzie> I think I saw something done in JavaScript that required a call in the style of "setTimeOut(function(){ ... }, 0);" every now and then to avoid getting huge call stacks; I guess JavaScript/ECMAScript environments might not bother with tail-call optimizations.
09:54:17 <psygnisfive> yeah, thats a typical callback
09:54:57 <psygnisfive> i mean, we dont code like that much, its just a typical example of a callback
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17:26:52 <oerjan> My are we negative today
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17:34:49 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> so i figure, why not do that for all function calls, period
17:35:03 <Slereah> Ew, periods
17:35:17 * pikhq looks forward to doing continuations in C++.
17:35:18 <oerjan> apparently there have been functional languages experimenting with parallelizing absolutely everything
17:35:23 <pikhq> ... Via continuation-passing style code.
17:35:39 <oerjan> the problem is the overhead absolutely kills any performance gain when you do it on small chunks
17:39:51 <oerjan> and finding out what is worth parallelizing is a hard problem
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18:33:48 <Sgeo> ehird, new Fine Structure is up
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19:00:19 <oerjan> eek, that global notice is a bit scary
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19:01:07 * oerjan isn't sure whether that was necessary but did so anyway
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19:02:14 <oerjan> lament: are you a registered contact for this channel?
19:06:41 <oerjan> who is a contact for this channel anyway? channel info only lists andreou, who certainly disappeared years ago?
19:07:20 <oerjan> oh he's not
19:07:27 <oerjan> good, then we should be safe
19:08:00 <oerjan> but we really should have a contact who is actually a channel regular...
19:10:40 <oerjan> ehird: warrie: with all your nicknames you probably should take care: "Grouped alternate nicknames which are considered to be expired will be dropped."
19:13:32 <psygnisfive> bf is interestingly simple.
19:15:22 <pikhq> oerjan: We should probably get control of the channel transferred to someone who's actually here.
19:16:02 <ais523> lament and fizzie are on the access list, at least, does that count?
19:16:13 <oerjan> ais523: i have no idea
19:16:15 <ais523> besides, if the channel /is/ dropped, an op could get it back again
19:16:26 <ais523> maybe we should ask lament/fizzie to leave their op powers on permanently just in case
19:16:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
19:17:23 <fizzie> I can stay like this until Freenode's ethnic purge or whatever is done, if it makes any sense.
19:17:25 <pikhq> Like that.
19:17:59 <psygnisfive> whats going on with freenode and the channel now?
19:18:17 <oerjan> oh
19:18:23 <oerjan> "And we can only tell that your channel is in use if some user in your access list, identified to NickServ, periodically joins the channel."
19:18:42 <fizzie> Well, that should be happening rather regularly.
19:18:48 <oerjan> ok so fizzie and lament being here is what counts
19:19:09 <oerjan> and andreou being the founder probably doesn't matter
19:19:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, "chanserv info #esoteric" for me lists "Founder: andreou" and "Successor: fizzie", but I have no clue what that latter title means. It's a weird network.
19:20:01 <pikhq> Might mean that you're supposed to take over for andreou?
19:20:06 <pikhq> So... Why haven't you? :P
19:20:07 <oerjan> fizzie: for me, only andreou is shown
19:20:27 <fizzie> I assume some sort of "there can be only one" swordfight is involved.
19:20:50 * oerjan suggests bfjoust ;D
19:23:08 <oerjan> afk
19:23:50 <ais523> fizzie: successor automatically becomes founder if the founder goes permanently missing for some reason
19:24:01 <ais523> so an active successor is enough to keep a channel alive
19:24:53 <GregorR-L> oerjan: laaaaaaaaaaawl
19:25:05 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Drag andreou out of eso-retirement for bfjoust :P
19:30:05 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // enjoy the awful!
19:34:59 <psygnisfive> enjoy the offal!
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19:57:15 <Sgeo> GregorR, what
19:57:16 <Sgeo> ?
19:58:22 <GregorR-L> ... enjoy the awful?
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19:59:30 * Sgeo needs a new MIDI player. Suggestions?
19:59:37 <GregorR-L> Platform?
19:59:42 <Sgeo> WinXP
19:59:53 <GregorR-L> Sorry, can't help ya.
20:00:04 <pikhq> CoLinux.
20:00:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: That's spectacularly unhelpful since generally MIDI is more difficult in Linux than Windows :P
20:00:39 <GregorR-L> Unless you care about the quality of the instruments, but you shouldn't for autocomposer :P
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20:01:42 <ais523> you can just install timidity
20:01:58 <ais523> which converts MIDI into other things, and can also play it
20:02:05 <ais523> but I don't know if that's Linux-only
20:02:10 <pikhq> I hate being helpful.
20:02:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, too bad, you helped my self-esteem the other day
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20:02:45 * pikhq hits undo
20:03:13 <Sgeo> :(
20:05:44 <GregorR-L> lawl
20:06:01 <GregorR-L> So, I assume nobody's actually listening to the output of the autocomposer? :P
20:06:16 * pikhq lacks MIDI
20:06:47 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, too lazy to load up Yahoo Jukebox at this minute
20:06:51 <Sgeo> But I downloaded something
20:06:53 <Sgeo> So
20:07:10 <Sgeo> Want me to listen?
20:07:28 * Sgeo made a random generator thing for tonematrix
20:07:28 <GregorR-L> I don't care really, it was more to bother people :P
20:07:32 <GregorR-L> It's not actually good :P
20:07:40 <GregorR-L> It's not entirely random.
20:08:17 <Sgeo> Ok, it's not loading
20:08:33 <Sgeo> AH, here it is
20:09:34 <Sgeo> It's not bad as much as it is boring, tbh
20:09:53 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/rnd_tonematrix.htm
20:10:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I was just too impatient considering that I wanted to show what I just linked to
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20:12:20 <psygnisfive> tonematrix is fun
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20:18:49 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, try my generator thing?
20:18:54 <psygnisfive> ??
20:19:00 <psygnisfive> oh, on the right
20:19:02 <psygnisfive> looking now
20:19:16 <psygnisfive> wossit do
20:19:24 <Sgeo> Press a button
20:19:31 <Sgeo> Like Single tone
20:19:32 <psygnisfive> yah
20:19:33 <psygnisfive> i get numbers
20:19:39 <Sgeo> Copy those numbers into tonematrix
20:19:54 <psygnisfive> how?
20:20:06 <Sgeo> Copy into your clipboard, right-click on Tonematrix and click paste
20:20:17 <psygnisfive> secret!
20:22:01 <psygnisfive> <3
20:22:09 <psygnisfive> full makes a not so pretty
20:22:14 <psygnisfive> but the rest are always pretty it seems
20:23:00 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, change the number to something to make Polyphonic make that number of tones in a column (or sometimes less)
20:23:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Make it a genetic algorithm.
20:23:17 <pikhq> So you can have algorithmic algorythms.
20:23:27 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I thought about it, but that'd be impossible since the fitness function is "sounds good" :P
20:23:44 <pikhq> Well, you could use people as the fitness function.
20:23:49 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, have people vote on which sounds better
20:23:51 <pikhq> (note: slow)
20:59:15 <lifthrasiir> http://pastie.org/private/gs6p43htyhdyg7nk1vvw that was hellish, but there is malbolge interpreter in migol now. (warning: not yet final)
21:04:14 <lifthrasiir> well, i should test with reference interpreter, but it's... a kind of slow.
21:04:30 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: Cool!
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21:04:38 <MigoMipo> No, the reference interpreter sucks.
21:04:47 <MigoMipo> Whoever wrote it should be executed.
21:05:08 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: suicide?!
21:05:14 <MigoMipo> :P
21:06:16 <lifthrasiir> anyway i made the program ignore null byte for compatibility. given much time, reference interpreter should start printing "99 bottles..." :p
21:07:03 <MigoMipo> I could fix a non-null-terminating version.
21:09:42 <FireFly> I still like my miGoL :(
21:09:47 <FireFly> But, nice job
21:10:28 <lifthrasiir> hmm, it silently terminates after 5 minutes. :S
21:11:23 <MigoMipo> My interpreter or yours?
21:13:28 <lifthrasiir> reference one.
21:13:39 <lifthrasiir> i'll take a look at it...
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21:14:55 <MigoMipo> If it works in theory but not in the reference interpreter, it is the interpreter's fault.
21:15:46 <MigoMipo> I found the line 2<[2]<$+300<[[2]] in the program, why not 2<$+300<[[2]] ?
21:15:47 <Sgeo> Anyone ever say in a spec that if the ref. interpreter and spec conflict, the interpreter's correct?
21:16:42 <GregorR-L> Depends on the situation.
21:17:28 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: you're right, that can be simplified. it doesn't change the meaning though.
21:18:13 <lifthrasiir> (i copied that statement from other line, namely 1<[2]<$+300<[[1]])
21:18:52 <FireFly> Increase with 300 and store the row the same var is currently pointing at
21:18:56 <FireFly> Scary
21:18:57 <FireFly> Uh
21:19:03 <FireFly> s/row/value/
21:19:30 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: that's D register in malbolge. :p
21:19:40 <lifthrasiir> 2<$+300<[[2]] translates into D = mem[D].
21:20:13 <FireFly> Oki
21:20:21 <FireFly> I've never looked into malbolge
21:20:27 <FireFly> I don't know if I want to :P
21:20:47 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: http://www.prq.se/?p=colo&intl=1
21:20:48 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: 100 megabits for $2000/month
21:20:48 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: is that a lot?
21:20:51 <ehird> that is ridiculously expensive
21:21:03 <ehird> 100 mbit internet is like $50-$70/mo in civilized countries
21:21:06 <ehird> of coures without the 4u
21:21:12 <ehird> but 4u for ~$2000?
21:21:13 <ehird> ridiculous
21:21:26 <ehird> 05:41 GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
21:21:29 <ehird> that's beautiful
21:21:31 <lifthrasiir> i found that memory initialization is very slow in the java version (~5min), but it prints wrong value for hello world program.
21:21:32 <ehird> wait why is fizzie an op
21:21:40 * lifthrasiir turns on debugging code
21:21:53 <ehird> but the 30tb/mo is nic
21:21:53 <ehird> e
21:21:59 <ehird> 06:10 MizardX: Sweden.
21:22:00 <ehird> oh?
21:22:05 <ehird> guess i wanna move there for awesome internet
21:23:42 <ehird> oh
21:23:46 <ehird> freenode's holocaust
21:23:48 <ehird> fuck freenode
21:23:51 <ehird> we should move to oftc
21:24:12 <ehird> 18:25 GregorR-L: oerjan: Drag andreou out of eso-retirement for bfjoust :P
21:24:14 <ehird> andreou was here recently.
21:24:29 <ehird> 18:59 Sgeo needs a new MIDI player. Suggestions?
21:24:32 <ehird> buy an mt-32 synthesizer
21:24:34 <ehird> i have one :)
21:24:38 <ehird> better than general midi!
21:24:44 <GregorR-L> ehird: That explains why autocomposer sounds "beautiful" :P
21:24:45 <ehird> bad digital converter hiss!
21:26:08 <ehird> 20:15 Sgeo: Anyone ever say in a spec that if the ref. interpreter and spec conflict, the interpreter's correct?
21:26:09 <ehird> malbolge
21:26:12 <ehird> iirc
21:26:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: what, mt-32?
21:26:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, I'm not using it atm; it's a pain to wire up
21:26:37 <pikhq> ehird: ODF?
21:26:40 <GregorR-L> :P
21:26:47 <ehird> i just have a great love of bad music
21:26:56 <ehird> pikhq: :P
21:27:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: Well then you should be joining us in writing Masterpieces!
21:27:09 <ehird> MizardX: your hostname is cloaked. who is your isp?
21:27:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: afraid I have no midi composer software
21:27:25 <GregorR-L> Pff
21:27:33 <ehird> i do have an m-audio 49 key midi keyboard and an mt-32, so 2/3 at least
21:27:40 <ehird> wait
21:27:42 <ehird> 2/4
21:27:45 <ehird> i also lack musical talent.
21:28:05 <ehird> Sgeo: "8192,8,8,4,64,32768,32768,2048,16,4096,16384,32768,64,16384,64,256" is pretty
21:28:41 <Sgeo> Nice
21:28:53 <ehird> from your random generator :P
21:29:04 <ehird> it's ever so slightly out of sync
21:29:16 <ehird> or at least appears that way at first
21:30:03 <ehird> btw
21:30:22 <ehird> you guys know that guy who hanged himself?
21:30:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:30:31 <ehird> not due to the 'sploits, but claimed as by stupid media
21:30:33 <ehird> anyway
21:30:41 <ehird> i found his blog. he was a total jerk.
21:30:44 <ehird> for instance
21:30:54 <ehird> [[The entire fucking knowledge of the universe penetrated, permeated, and pervaded my mind, and I became omniscient. You can say that I have indeed seen god, and yes, he is a fucking idiot.]]
21:31:06 <ehird> [[I drive a brand new benz, and currently my sole aim is to make money. ]]
21:31:14 <ehird> [[I have always been 3.14 times bigger than God. ]]
21:31:23 <ehird> [[sporting a tattoo that says ‘God is a fucking idiot’, ]]
21:31:34 <ehird> [[“God loves you, you know”. One of them said.
21:31:34 <ehird> “That’s irrelevant. I am going to kill god”.]]
21:31:40 <ehird> later
21:31:42 <ehird> [[“Hehe. I know everything. I have seen the entire fucking universe. I am actually omniscient. I have read the entire Bible. I have a new theory that all successful religions are based on legitimatizing rape”. ]]
21:32:05 <ehird> i couldn't act more smug and shit-faced if I tried
21:32:16 <ehird> i thought wolfram's ego was bad...
21:32:31 <ehird> http://ligesh.com/, http://ligesh.com/about/
21:32:40 <ehird> oh also [[I am the most interesting person on this godforsaken planet of the apes.]]
21:33:13 <ais523> I like the way "I have read the entire Bible" is marked there as being something impressive
21:33:20 <ehird> yep...
21:33:21 <ais523> I think even normal people could manage that
21:33:36 <ais523> it's not like it's massively long, or deliberately hard to read
21:33:45 <FireFly> [[I am a wikilink]]
21:33:47 <ehird> ais523: it does contain some rather vile stuff, though
21:33:49 <ehird> but yeah
21:33:50 <ais523> well, reading the original would be more impressive
21:33:57 <ehird> heh
21:34:12 <ehird> ais523: Hbrw: Jst dd vwls.
21:34:48 <FireFly> dd if=vowels of=/dev/null
21:35:31 <ehird> that doesn't erase vowels
21:37:07 <FireFly> tre
21:37:09 <FireFly> Uh
21:37:09 <FireFly> tr
21:37:54 <MizardX> {ehird} MizardX: your hostname is cloaked. who is your isp?
21:38:13 <MizardX> Riksnet
21:38:33 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWu98GRk-E reminds me of Davies and Kosogorin in Fine Structure
21:38:41 <ehird> MizardX: fibre optic i assume?
21:39:13 <MizardX> Ethernet into the apartment. I don't know how it's connected to the house though.
21:39:17 <Sgeo> ehird, are you catching up in Fine Structure?
21:39:27 <ehird> Sgeo: i have only read one or two of it.
21:39:33 <ehird> i will wait until it is done, i suppose
21:39:45 <ehird> MizardX: actual ethernet internet? interesting
21:39:52 <ehird> ais523: do any isps actually do that? since you know AS and stuff.
21:40:02 <Sgeo> ehird, what if I spoil the ending for you at that time? >:D
21:40:17 <ehird> Sgeo: then I'll kill you :P
21:40:47 <MizardX> At some point I think they use fibers. They wouldn't be able to handle all the traffic otherwise.
21:41:03 <ehird> MizardX: those riksnet people seem to do deals with landlords and stuff instead of direct to consumer
21:41:07 <ehird> well "Do not pay to bury another cable. Join together with your neighbors and get group discounts on broadband."
21:41:15 <ehird> a rather odd way of running an isp
21:41:36 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: okay, #<[9]<$+2 was problematic: my interpreter changes program counter after whole statement is executed, but yours immediately stops executing current statement when #<[9] is executed.
21:41:58 <lifthrasiir> i guess the latter is the correct behavior...?
21:42:24 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
21:42:29 <MizardX> The most of the city is connected in one network, where each client can choose between different ISPs.
21:43:09 <MizardX> Just a few clicks and you can change ISP.
21:43:10 <ehird> The base of Riksnets service offering consists of a high speed connection via fiber network to the local area or premise. The connection is done with a gigabit link, and each dwelling, up to 100Mbit depending on the equipment in its own network.
21:43:13 <ehird> fibre then
21:43:15 <ehird> MizardX: that's weird
21:43:19 <ehird> MizardX: what city is this?
21:43:23 <MizardX> Luleå
21:43:39 <ehird> a city at the coast of in northern Sweden with 45,467 inhabitants
21:43:41 <ehird> that's a small city
21:43:42 <ehird> :P
21:45:07 <ehird> The cost per connection, and months can vary greatly depending on, among other communities the size, cost of access to local stadsdelsnät and distance from the nearest node.
21:45:07 <ehird> Normally, however, a Riksnetkund previously had a normal ADSL connection expect to halve their monthly fee and receive 10 times as high capacity.
21:45:12 <ehird> that's just so not-vague
21:46:49 <MizardX> 0.5 Mbit ADSL and 10/100 mbit ethernet/fiber is almost in the same price-range. ADSL has wider coverage but lower speed.
21:47:15 <MizardX> 0.5/1.0 maybe
21:47:24 <ehird> i pay for 8mbit adsl and get 2-6mbit
21:47:33 <ehird> most often 500kbps
21:47:52 <ehird> = 4mbit
21:48:03 <ehird> MizardX: no symmetrical 100/100 though? :-)
21:48:15 <ehird> unfortunately the high-speeders tend to lack technical prowess eg ipv6 and custom reverse dns
21:48:35 <FireFly> Ta emot: 11.09Mbit/sek
21:48:35 <MizardX> I meant 10mbit or 100mbit, not 10 up/100 down.
21:48:39 <ehird> ah
21:48:39 <FireFly> Quite nice
21:48:43 <lifthrasiir> ...but it still prints out wrong result!
21:48:46 <ehird> MizardX: so the 100 is symmetrical?
21:48:51 <MizardX> yes
21:49:07 <ehird> MizardX: lucky ou
21:49:08 <ehird> you
21:49:50 <MizardX> Most ethernet/fiber connections are symmetrical. ADSL 0.5/1.0/8/24 is another story.
21:50:06 <lifthrasiir> registers are correct, maybe the memory problem. but anyway it's time to go sleep... :p
21:50:24 <fizzie> There was some sort of project to build a similar "city-district network" (with fibre, in which ISPs could then provide Internet connectivity relatively cheaply) in the place I used to live in few (7?) years ago. I'm not sure if anything came out of it.
21:50:41 <ehird> uk/us internet is really bullshit
21:50:51 <MizardX> :P
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21:50:55 <ehird> the only fibre provider is Virgin, they offer up to 50mbit, but jesus, their contract
21:51:03 <ehird> they literally say that annoying another internet user is prohibited
21:51:07 <ehird> really.
21:51:08 <ais523> also, they require Windows
21:51:14 <ehird> their whole tos is just ridiculous
21:51:20 <ais523> but looking carefully, it's a requirement for at least one Windows computer
21:51:23 <ais523> as opposed to nothing but Windows
21:51:27 <ehird> you can't do anything other than check your email and respond in a courteous manner
21:51:45 <comex> doesn't "require windows" usually mean "our software only supports windows but you can get it to work on linux through google"
21:51:50 <ehird> well, maybe an archive.org junky
21:51:51 <ehird> junki
21:51:52 <ehird> e
21:52:01 <ais523> comex: yes, in this case
21:52:02 <ehird> bogon's ToS is nice
21:52:16 <ehird> "You are not allowed to do anything illegal. If we are told you are doing something illegal, we'll cut you off."
21:52:23 <fizzie> Well, uh, the website of the organization doing the "local-ish area networking" thing seems to have morphed into a portal site completely in Russian (at least with the cyrillic alphabet) so I'm guessing they're not really in business any longer.
21:52:24 <ehird> *bogons'
21:52:26 <ais523> what if the person who told you that was lying?
21:52:39 <ehird> ais523: i was summarising
21:52:44 <ehird> http://www.bogons.net/aup.shtml
21:52:59 <ehird> it still lists too many individual violations for my liking
21:53:18 <Sgeo> ehird, remember when I spoiled http://qntm.org/?failure for you? Do you still remember the spoiler?
21:53:31 <ehird> Sgeo: Something about people dying in some way.
21:53:32 <ehird> Melting perhaps?
21:53:34 <Sgeo> (Yes, it's FS, so don't read it now if you want to save FS)
21:53:43 <Sgeo> I didn't even specify how
21:53:48 <fizzie> The terms-of-service for most ISPs around here are rather ugly too. For one thing, a majority of them have some sort of "you are not allowed to have a server program connected to our network" thing.
21:54:04 <Sgeo> Do you want me to?
21:54:10 <ehird> virgin let you have servers if you meet N where N tends to infinity conditions
21:54:12 <ehird> Sgeo: no
21:54:42 <Sgeo> Do you read ROT13'd text as though it weren't ROT13'd?
21:55:01 <ais523> no, I get my web browser to decode it
21:55:04 <ehird> if an isp existed offering a symmetrical 100mbit connection, with a terms of use consisting of "illegal stuff is prohibited", and that did stuff like ipv6 & custom reverse dns...
21:55:09 <Sgeo> Gurl nyy qvr bs qrulqengvba.
21:55:13 <Sgeo> ^^^SPOILERS
21:55:17 <ehird> i'd leave home and fly there overnight :P
21:55:21 <ehird> Sgeo: What the fuck is your problem?
21:55:30 <Sgeo> ehird, just don't decode it
21:55:43 <ehird> <Sgeo> ehird: HEY ELLIOTT WANT A SPOILER <ehird> No. <Sgeo> REAAALLLLLLLLLLY? <ehird> I said no. <Sgeo> Gurl nyy qvr bs qrulqengvba LOLOLOLOLOLO
21:55:48 <ehird> How obnoxious.
21:58:11 <pikhq> fizzie: So, not allowed to have any daemons?
21:58:55 <ehird> Sgeo: Actually, I can't think of a justification other than attempting to get me to decode it out of curiosity and thus re-spoiling.
21:59:04 <ehird> So I hereby deem you a royal jerk.
21:59:54 <Sgeo> If I really wanted to spoil you, I would have either not mentioned that it was a spoiler, or spoiled in plaintext
22:00:12 <fizzie> pikhq: It's not like there are any definitions of terms there, so it's anyone's guess as to what constitutes a "server".
22:00:16 <ehird> So you bothered me about whether I wanted a spoiler or not and then said it anyway... why exactly?
22:00:47 <Sgeo> I don't know. Bored silliness.
22:04:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Let's say you run an outbound VPN and have servers over that. :P
22:04:03 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:04:48 <MizardX> [Translated] Can I set up my own server? Yes. You can set up a server as long as it is not for commercial activities.
22:05:24 <ehird> MizardX: That's ridiculous.
22:05:29 <ehird> That's utterly ridiculous.
22:08:28 <fizzie> I translated this on-#esoteric earlier, but one ISP here ("Elisa") has the following [rough translation trying to keep the text style and confusedness intact] about servers: you are not allowed "to use the network service to provide services for broadband- or internet-service users by placing server equipment or software into the data communication link".
22:09:09 <ehird> heh
22:09:24 <atrapado> managers write it
22:10:06 <ehird> atrapado: no, managers tell lawyers to write it
22:11:05 <atrapado> and neither one knows what they are doing
22:11:58 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: I believe that the first statement is correct.
22:12:12 <ehird> atrapado: lawyers absolutely know what they're doing.
22:12:17 <MigoMipo> It should do the entire operation before branching.
22:12:24 <MigoMipo> I think.
22:13:40 <fizzie> That last part especially is written so that the Finnish version sounds very much like they're talking about literally taking some piece of soft- or hardware and somehow inserting it into some sort of reified physical manifestation of the connection you're buying. They *could* just as easily speak of connecting those things to the link or something so that it made sense, but no; you insert things into it.
22:13:48 <fizzie> I guess it's the tube, and you put stuff in it.
22:14:06 <ais523> one tube, or a series?
22:14:28 <fizzie> One tube for the customer; presumably it connects to a series of.
22:14:28 <pikhq> I think that would ban a router that offers DNS caching, but not an actual server.
22:14:37 <atrapado> ehird, i do not know
22:14:50 <ehird> atrapado: you don't know what?
22:15:06 <atrapado> whether lawyers know what they are doing
22:16:31 <ehird> atrapado: what sort of mad alternate universe do you live in
22:16:39 <ehird> i think what you mean to say is "i don't like lawyers".
22:17:09 <atrapado> haha
22:17:28 <atrapado> ehird, i am debugging the world and looking for a guilty
22:17:46 <ehird> atrapado: erm, your grammar seems very guilty
22:19:14 <atrapado> ehird, yes, can you decapitate it ?
22:19:31 <ehird> atrapado: i think it already has been
22:21:14 <atrapado> ehird, headless grammar it is then
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22:21:34 <psygnisfive> headless grammar? o.o
22:22:05 <ehird> yes
22:22:11 <ehird> you could totally theorizify that
22:22:25 <psygnisfive> whats a headless grammar
22:23:00 <atrapado> maybe a grammar without a start symbol
22:23:02 <ehird> a grammar that got decapitated
22:23:16 <psygnisfive> a grammar without a start symbol?
22:23:23 <psygnisfive> you mean where any non-terminal is a valid start symbol?
22:23:54 <atrapado> with several start symbols
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22:24:07 <psygnisfive> so like
22:24:34 <psygnisfive> if your grammar is (R, T, N, S)
22:24:46 <psygnisfive> instead of S ∈ N
22:24:50 <psygnisfive> its S ⊆ N?
22:24:59 <ehird> let's go with it
22:25:03 <ehird> why not
22:25:15 <psygnisfive> if thats what you mean, then you have not changed a thing
22:25:24 <atrapado> no, i meant S = a string of more than one non terminal
22:25:34 <psygnisfive> i dont follow
22:26:11 <atrapado> you do not start with S, you start with, say AB
22:26:15 <psygnisfive> oh. ok.
22:26:22 <psygnisfive> well then you still are starting with S.
22:26:26 <psygnisfive> i mean
22:26:30 <psygnisfive> consider this, right
22:26:38 <atrapado> yes, i understand
22:27:04 <psygnisfive> if your grammar is (R, T, N, AB), thats the same as (R + {S -> AB}, T, N + {S}, S)
22:27:21 <atrapado> it might be equivalent, but it is not the same
22:27:33 <psygnisfive> its not the same in form, no
22:27:41 <ehird> psygnisfive: why do linguists just have long tuples instead of naming shit? :D
22:27:48 <psygnisfive> but you really get no benefit from this
22:27:49 <psygnisfive> uh..
22:27:51 <psygnisfive> long tuples?
22:28:04 <psygnisfive> G = (R, T, N, S) is maths, ehird, not linguistics
22:28:08 <ehird> "oh this syntactical monomorphonomy is (A,GT,R+Z->Y,{F},X,QUR,D)"
22:28:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: i know
22:28:24 <atrapado> some lingustics is, since chomsky defined something there
22:28:39 <psygnisfive> well yes, chomsky did some math for the earliest parts of formal language theory
22:28:56 <psygnisfive> but how is that a long tuple?
22:29:00 <psygnisfive> its a lot shorter than saying, like
22:29:13 <psygnisfive> "your rules include S -> AB, you have a new non-terminal S, and S is the start symbol)
22:29:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: vs "morpho A, syntactic transform GT, equivalence relation R+Z->Y"
22:29:30 <ehird> you could even abbreviate them!
22:29:38 <ehird> mph A, st GT, eqr R+Z->Y
22:29:39 <ehird> :-P
22:29:40 <psygnisfive> sure
22:29:54 <psygnisfive> you could abbreviate them even more by omitting the name and understanding the position is relevant
22:30:02 <psygnisfive> A, GT, R+Z->Y
22:30:09 <psygnisfive> and innat a tuple.
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22:30:20 <psygnisfive> anyway.
22:30:25 <ehird> 22:29 psygnisfive: you could abbreviate them even more by omitting the name and understanding the position is relevant
22:30:27 <ehird> yes but
22:30:37 <ehird> "element 4" meaningfulness <<<<<<< "eqr" meaningfulness
22:30:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's like saying variables in a function are referred to by the number of their occurance
22:31:03 <ehird> let 3 let $1 + 2 let $1+$2
22:31:05 <psygnisfive> except element 4 is never said?
22:31:14 <psygnisfive> anyway
22:31:14 <ehird> → let a=3 let b=a+2 let c=a+b
22:31:28 <psygnisfive> except i did that, ehird.
22:31:41 <psygnisfive> G = (R, T, N, S)
22:31:49 <ehird> fine. :P
22:32:15 <psygnisfive> then (R + {S -> AB}, ...)
22:32:28 <psygnisfive> NE WAYS
22:32:37 <psygnisfive> atrapado: i dont see what youre getting from this "headlessness"
22:32:57 <atrapado> the same you are getting with your headness
22:33:03 <atrapado> from *
22:33:04 <psygnisfive> what?
22:33:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: he didn't actually invent this any more than on the spot...
22:33:18 <ehird> 22:17 atrapado: ehird, i am debugging the world and looking for a guilty
22:33:18 <ehird> 22:17 ehird: atrapado: erm, your grammar seems very guilty
22:33:20 <ehird> 22:19 atrapado: ehird, yes, can you decapitate it ?
22:33:22 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: atrapado: i think it already has been
22:33:23 <ehird> 22:21 atrapado: ehird, headless grammar it is then
22:33:45 <psygnisfive> well ok then :P
22:35:15 <atrapado> it would be funny defined that way
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22:35:41 <psygnisfive> what?
22:36:12 <ehird> GregorR: how heavy is your wearable computer?
22:36:23 <ehird> i guess it's low-spec; even a heatsink would likely be prohibitive as far as comfort goes
22:37:01 <atrapado> how would you get 'a' from 'AB' ?
22:37:29 <pikhq> ehird: I'd imagine it is, at best, comparable to an EeePC.
22:37:42 <psygnisfive> atrapado: what do you mean?
22:37:53 <ehird> pikhq: i'd go for an embedded ARM type set up
22:38:02 <ehird> pikhq: so you can use a really tiny motherboard, no heatsink or anything needed
22:38:16 <ehird> and a decent desktop arm is probably better than a low-end x86
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22:38:37 <ehird> wearable computing is just brain implants for wussies :)
22:38:54 <atrapado> psygnisfive, if you start with nonterminals 'AB', what grammar do you need so that 'a' is in the grammar ?
22:39:03 <atrapado> 'a' terminal
22:39:07 <psygnisfive> A -> a, B -> ε
22:39:15 <atrapado> yeah !
22:39:19 <psygnisfive> assuming a CFG-with-epsilons
22:39:23 <atrapado> every grammar has epsilons ?
22:39:25 <atrapado> yeah
22:39:31 <atrapado> can have *
22:39:40 <psygnisfive> no, actually
22:39:54 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno, maybe 2 lbs all said.
22:40:02 <psygnisfive> if your language does not contain the empty string, then CSLs do not require epsilon rules.
22:40:17 <GregorR> Remember! When turning left onto a one-way street, the right lane is the wrong lane!
22:40:24 <ehird> GregorR: ugh, I'd hate to carry around 0.9kg around
22:40:31 <psygnisfive> and if your language DOES contain the empty string
22:40:33 <ehird> i mean it's light, sure
22:40:35 <ehird> but still a pain
22:40:40 <ehird> GregorR: what's the specs like
22:40:47 <GregorR> !google beagleboard
22:40:48 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=beagleboard
22:40:50 <ehird> —and I mean the specifications, not the spectacles—
22:40:51 <psygnisfive> then you can write a CSG where the only epsilon rule is S -> ε
22:41:00 <psygnisfive> and all other rules are strictly epsilon-free
22:41:02 <atrapado> yes, psygnisfive
22:41:15 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Beagle_Board_big.jpg
22:41:20 <ehird> GregorR: some of those heatsinks look a bit heavy
22:41:29 <ehird> GregorR: how do you interact with it?
22:41:33 <psygnisfive> so no, not every grammar has epsilons. only grammars for languages with the empty string have epsilons.
22:41:41 <GregorR> ............... the BB has no heatsinks.
22:41:50 <ehird> GregorR: dude, yes it does
22:41:51 <ehird> look at it
22:41:52 <GregorR> Also, that 3"x3"
22:41:58 <ehird> I know
22:42:02 <ehird> but it definitely has heatsinks
22:42:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:42:15 <ehird> anyway, what's the input method
22:42:20 * GregorR wonders which component ehird thinks is a heatsink ...
22:42:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
22:42:29 <GregorR> Ring-mounted mouse and a tiny bluetooth keyboard.
22:42:34 <ehird> maybe i'm looking wrong :P
22:42:39 <ehird> GregorR: oh, that's bullshit
22:42:40 <pikhq> GregorR: Damn.
22:42:45 <pikhq> That's pretty awesome.
22:42:47 <atrapado> psygnisfive, do you know how many grammars there are ?
22:42:51 <ehird> who the fuck wants to use shitty mice/keyboards on the go
22:42:53 <psygnisfive> what do you mean?
22:43:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:43:05 <GregorR> ehird: You're another one of those "IT'S NOT A WEARABLE IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN IMPOSSIBLE-TO-LEARN CHORDER" retards?
22:43:12 <pikhq> atrapado: Approximately \infty
22:43:15 <pikhq> Erm.
22:43:21 <pikhq> \infnty?
22:43:22 <ehird> GregorR: get some gloves/mittens with half a keyboard in the palm, like those Kinesis keyboards
22:43:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:43:29 <pikhq> Erm. MY TEX FOO SUCKS.
22:43:30 <ehird> and have the right one have two extra keys for left/right click
22:43:33 <GregorR> ehird: That sounds unbearably awkward ...
22:43:40 <atrapado> exactly the same number as the number of natural numbers
22:43:45 <pikhq> GregorR: I'd call a chording keyboard worth it.
22:43:45 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you mean how many grammars, period, then yes, an infinite number.
22:43:50 <atrapado> i think
22:43:53 <ehird> GregorR: not too much, but think of the advantages
22:43:56 <pikhq> But to each his own.
22:43:57 <ehird> you can just keep walking while typing and mousing
22:44:01 <ehird> for moving the mouse...
22:44:08 <GregorR> I can walk and mouse anyway.
22:44:11 <psygnisfive> infact, for any given language there are an infinite number of grammars for that language.
22:44:14 <ehird> have a button that, when you hold it down, your hand movements move the mouse
22:44:16 <GregorR> And I doubt I could concentrate on walking and typing regardless :P
22:44:25 <ehird> so you make a fist and move to the top-left of the screen, say.
22:44:28 <ehird> that'd be kick-ass.
22:44:30 <pikhq> ehird: That Beagleboard there seems to not have heatsinks. It seems to have a few *sockets*.
22:44:40 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, I looked at it wrong
22:45:07 <ehird> i would like a wearable computer a lot, but it'd have to do it right
22:45:08 <ehird> heyyyyyyyy
22:45:10 <ehird> I just thought!
22:45:16 <ehird> GregorR: you can get transparent-background oled displays
22:45:22 <oerjan> psygnisfive: very trivially, just add an indirection non-terminal
22:45:23 <ehird> [well, they're in the "trade show demo" phase]
22:45:23 <GregorR> Yeah, for $$$
22:45:26 <ehird> *that's* what you need
22:45:31 <ehird> seamless integration, beyotch!
22:45:33 <GregorR> This is a "budget" wearable :P
22:45:38 <psygnisfive> oerjan: for CFGs, sure.
22:45:40 <ehird> GregorR: got any photos?
22:45:43 <ehird> it sounds cool regardless
22:45:54 <GregorR> ehird: Not yet. Surprisingly difficult to take full-body photos of oneself :P
22:45:58 <ehird> GregorR: use a timer
22:46:03 <psygnisfive> for any given language, i think there is a finite number of minimal CFGs
22:46:06 <oerjan> psygnisfive: general chomsky grammars too, naturally
22:46:09 <GregorR> ehird: That's what I did, but it's not focusing right.
22:46:09 <psygnisfive> that is, CFGs without useless rules
22:46:11 * pikhq will quite likely have to get a beagle board and make a tiny laptop out of it
22:46:22 <psygnisfive> for any given CFL, i mean
22:46:23 <ehird> GregorR: also, budget wearable = a wearable that you can't take around town because you'd look like a freaking dolt
22:46:23 <GregorR> pikhq: That would be a very tiny laptop.
22:46:24 <ehird> :P
22:46:26 <pikhq> (what I need from a laptop is... SSH)
22:46:31 <ehird> pikhq: erm
22:46:34 <ehird> 3" laptop?
22:46:39 <GregorR> ehird: I don't care what I look like.
22:46:56 <ehird> GregorR: The police do, if you have a suspicious, fat pack on you :P
22:46:58 <psygnisfive> but i think for CSGs and UGs, there are an infinite number of minimal grammars
22:47:00 <ehird> *KABOOM*
22:47:08 <ehird> (yeah, it's bullshit; but it happens)
22:47:09 <pikhq> ehird: ... More likely 3" computer with attached keyboard and screen. :P
22:47:14 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, the West Lafayette police department are brutal X_X
22:47:15 <ehird> pikhq: so not a laptop
22:47:31 <ehird> GregorR: A hypothetical IM conversation:
22:47:36 <ehird> <GregorR> OMFG some police are coming
22:47:38 <pikhq> I could arbitrarily make it into a laptop.
22:47:39 <ehird> <person> What?
22:47:42 <ehird> <GregorR> Really
22:47:45 <ehird> <person> ...
22:47:48 <ehird> <GregorR> Oh god they've got tasers
22:47:52 <ehird> <person> What are you doing?
22:47:55 <ehird> <GregorR> NO GOD NODSkdjgldkh;lg';hkl
22:47:59 <ehird> <GregorR> ;kk'
22:48:05 <GregorR> Weird that I'd still be typing at that point :P
22:48:10 <ehird> GregorR: But of course!
22:48:18 <GregorR> And have you suffered police brutality recently? X-P
22:48:22 <ehird> no :P
22:48:23 <ehird> pikhq: a better choice for a laptop is either an Intel Atom or a VIA Nano
22:48:31 <ehird> pikhq: the atom boards have either fans or heatsinks though
22:48:35 <ehird> a via nano has some kick-ass power
22:48:40 <ehird> pikhq: it can decode 720p with 6% cpu usage
22:48:47 <pikhq> ehird: Heh.
22:48:54 <pikhq> If it does SSH, it's enough.
22:48:56 <ehird> and it's one of the smaller board sizes, and doesn't need a heatsink or fan
22:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: no reason to artificially downsize, though
22:49:19 <ehird> pikhq: the problem I've had with a homebrew laptop is getting a chassis
22:49:35 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i think it is undecidable whether two CFG give the same language, which makes me somewhat doubt that you can computably reduce to a finite set
22:49:36 <ehird> that is, they all suck.
22:50:04 <psygnisfive> im pretty sure its decidable
22:50:32 <psygnisfive> but regardless of whether or not its decidable is irrelevant to the existence of such a set of grammars.
22:50:45 <ehird> 10"-12" OLED screen, via nano, <=1kg weight
22:50:51 <ehird> = Wintop.
22:50:58 <ehird> No, not laptop. Wintop.
22:51:45 <psygnisfive> but im pretty sure its decidable
22:52:18 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_language#Decidability_properties
22:52:34 <psygnisfive> ah ok
22:52:51 <atrapado> do you think a recursive language / a decisor is sufficient for almost everyone ?
22:53:00 <psygnisfive> but that doesnt really matter.
22:53:05 <psygnisfive> atrapado: what?
22:53:35 <atrapado> it was a rephrase of bill gates' 640 k is enough for everyone
22:53:48 <ehird> ...it was?
22:53:50 <psygnisfive> right but what do you mean by that?
22:53:50 <ehird> that was totally nonobvious
22:54:07 <atrapado> i see
22:54:20 <psygnisfive> all languages are recursive languages (except finite languages which are useless)
22:54:20 <atrapado> i mean you can do almost any interesting calculation with a decisor
22:54:22 <ehird> GregorR: [[Please welcome our new administrator, GregorR, who will be taking over as leader of the Wearable Computing Wiki.]] lawl
22:54:28 <psygnisfive> whats a decisor?
22:54:38 <atrapado> a machine that always halts
22:54:39 <GregorR> ehird: >_> <_<
22:54:45 <psygnisfive> oh. a DECIDER
22:54:56 <atrapado> oh, yes
22:55:33 <ehird> argh! now i want to make a wearable computer
22:55:37 <ehird> GregorR: surely, though, it's hard to read text?
22:55:41 <ehird> small resolution and all
22:55:42 <psygnisfive> dunno of such machines are sufficient for all purposes. itd depend on whether or not there are some common tasks that require the possibility of non-halting behavior
22:56:05 <GregorR> ehird: I had to increase the font size, so I can't fit a normal 640x480 worth of text, but at the right size it's easy enough to read :P
22:56:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, REPLs generally are programmed that way, but sufficiently large maximum number of loops would be sufficient for all purposes and still halt
22:56:23 <GregorR> ehird: I wouldn't want to use it as an ebook reader X-P
22:56:35 <atrapado> psygnisfive, think about a desktop, it surely do not need such non-halting
22:56:36 <ehird> GregorR: but, necessarily it'll be harder to use than even a 15" external display
22:56:40 <ehird> since it's right against your eyes and low-res...
22:56:56 <psygnisfive> atrapado: well, no, you just need absurdly long halt times
22:57:06 <GregorR> ehird: The periscope-y thing plays an optical trick such that it doesn't look like it's right against your eye, it looks like it's larger and at some distance.
22:57:15 <ehird> GregorR: interesting
22:57:21 <psygnisfive> plus, all real computers are deciders, ignoring IO
22:57:24 <ehird> GregorR: i'd ask you to take a picture, but that's obviously rather impossible :)
22:57:28 <psygnisfive> well, no, sorry.
22:57:31 <psygnisfive> they're just not TC.
22:57:36 <ehird> GregorR: if i was to make a wearable computer, I'd have to have a super-quick, high-quality camera
22:57:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (No route to host).
22:57:44 <atrapado> yes, they have limited memory and time
22:57:46 <ehird> because messing with reality would be so much fun...
22:57:52 <ehird> Inverted world!
22:57:55 <GregorR> :P
22:58:03 <psygnisfive> but i think that means that all non-terminating behavior is trivial on them
22:58:25 <atrapado> yes, psygnisfive , they would reach a loop always
22:58:43 <ehird> GregorR: unfortuntaely, budget :(
22:58:57 <pikhq> ehird: There might be good reason to artificially downsize. Consider that a downsized system might have better battery performance.
22:59:13 <ehird> pikhq: true, but via nano battery life is, iirc, good
22:59:21 <ehird> pikhq: like >10hr good
22:59:27 <ehird> (well maybe less if you have it under constant load)
22:59:37 * pikhq wants it running for hours on double-A batteries. :P
22:59:50 <ehird> pikhq: eh
22:59:54 <ehird> just charge a lithium battery overnight
23:00:02 <ehird> wearing it for over 10 hours would suck
23:00:05 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:49 <ehird> "Aimone and Mann succeeded in designing an injection moulded EyeTap suitable for mass production, as shown below: "
23:00:59 <ehird> GregorR: does that mean they actually inject it into your eye?
23:01:03 <ehird> http://wearcam.org/italian_design/bests/dsc001bbbb.jpg
23:01:19 <GregorR> ehird: Injection molding is how plastic devices are usually made to roughly the right shape :P
23:01:23 <ehird> Oh :P
23:01:32 <ehird> GregorR: Well it looks like it's in the eye >_<
23:01:34 <GregorR> They INJECT it into a MOLD.
23:01:48 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying 'laptop', not 'wearable computer', though.
23:02:18 <ehird> pikhq: Okay. The question is, what the fuck are you doing that puts you away from any battery charging ability whatsoever for such long amounts of time?
23:02:41 <ehird> pikhq: And why do you need your laptop on all this time?
23:02:47 <pikhq> Nothing at all. I just wants it.
23:02:49 <ehird> As opposed to hybrid suspend, which uses 0 power after a time.
23:03:08 <pikhq> And "laptop on all this time"? I am an IRC addict. :P
23:03:47 <pikhq> (on a more serious note: I suck at remembering to bring chargers for things)
23:03:58 <ehird> pikhq: So you're going out into the wilderness, where there is no opportunity to charge. And for all this ~13 hours of time, you will be on IRC constantly.
23:04:01 <ehird> Now, here's my question.
23:04:26 <pikhq> s/wilderness/anywhere my computer is not/
23:04:58 <ehird> pikhq: Wow, does your state have some sort of electrical socket holocaust going on?
23:05:13 <ehird> GregorR: does that gen.mid thing change each load?
23:05:15 <pikhq> No, but I suck at remembering to bring chargers.
23:05:42 <ehird> pikhq: Then you suck at remembering to bring replacement AA batteries...
23:05:46 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, it's random.
23:05:55 <GregorR> ehird: Also, I'm still fekking around with the software.
23:05:58 <ehird> pikhq: Nothing's gonna get you >10-15hrs.
23:06:09 <ehird> GregorR: relink me?
23:06:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php
23:06:22 <pikhq> AAs are easier to obtain than chargers.
23:06:25 <GregorR> Now with chords.
23:06:27 <pikhq> Especially for custom hardware.
23:06:35 <GregorR> It's actually nearing being legitimately good.
23:06:39 <GregorR> Though not really :P
23:06:45 <ehird> pikhq: Just get a generic lithium battery charger
23:07:20 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, so you are near a store where you can get AAs, you have been IRCing constantly for 13 hours, and there is no way you could obtain or use a charger. And it is vital that you get your computer running again immediately.
23:07:23 <ehird> I see. :P
23:07:34 <pikhq> YES.
23:07:36 <ehird> GregorR: this one has too many stops
23:07:38 <pikhq> :P
23:07:38 <ehird> rests, etc
23:07:46 <GregorR> ehird: Uhh, it shouldn't have any rests at all.
23:07:49 <GregorR> ehird: It generates no rests.
23:07:59 <GregorR> ehird: It might be an unfortunate result of the random instrument it picked.
23:08:03 <ehird> GregorR: Then it's generating tones out of my MIDI's range.
23:08:07 <ehird> (Or inaudible.)
23:08:26 <GregorR> It's probably that it randomly chose the "wrong" instrument.
23:08:30 <pikhq> GregorR: How many <15kHz tones does it have?
23:08:36 <ehird> GregorR: but this is quite good. Make it generate multiple tracks.
23:08:39 <GregorR> pikhq: Why, none! :P
23:08:43 <pikhq> Curses.
23:08:45 <ehird> A special-case for percussion, say. Then add rests. And it will rock.
23:08:57 * pikhq wants a piece of music for not-old-men.
23:09:05 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: Hbrw: Jst dd vwls. <-- actually hbrw is more insidious than that iirc. the jews themselves found it unreadable so they added _some_ but not _all_ of the vowel information using silent consonants at some point. then much later they added full vowel diacritics, but only for special purposes like the bible.
23:09:05 <GregorR> ehird: T.B.H., I don't know sh** about MIDI percussion :P
23:09:45 <ehird> GregorR: There are a few instruments that just have one sound with varying pitches, which is stupid
23:09:51 <ehird> GregorR: But the drumkit ones,
23:09:52 -!- atrapado has quit ("going-to-sleep").
23:09:56 <ehird> a pitch = one of the sounds.
23:10:00 <ehird> Trial and error.
23:10:09 <GregorR> It's hard to trial-and-error with an autocomposer :P
23:10:28 <ehird> GregorR: Fire up midi composer. Play around with drumkit. Program results into autocomposer.
23:11:01 <ehird> GregorR: It's just given me a percussive song :P
23:11:07 <ehird> It's very foreboding.
23:11:10 <GregorR> Whaaaaaa?
23:11:15 <GregorR> Timpani maybe?
23:11:19 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, I think so.
23:11:21 <ehird> I'll upload it.
23:11:23 <GregorR> Ah, that'd explain it.
23:11:29 <ehird> It's rather catchy.
23:11:33 <ehird> GregorR: http://filebin.ca/dqnzjf/gen-1.mid
23:11:57 <ehird> It has some variation, too.
23:11:58 <ehird> Ve' go'.
23:12:45 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/smgzgb/gen3.mid // this one is seriously sweet
23:12:57 <GregorR> As is gen-1
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23:13:41 <ehird> GregorR: gen-1 seriously feels like an old DOS game
23:13:44 <ehird> a dramatic scene
23:13:54 <GregorR> Hahahaha, it so does X-D
23:13:55 <ehird> it's the sort of crunchy, distorted sound of the timpanis
23:14:09 <ehird> GregorR: gen3 is jazzy
23:16:43 <ehird> GregorR: this could be seriously great given time. Want me to run gen-1 through my mt-32 for that Authenticke sound?
23:18:10 <ehird> GregorR: I agree, so I'll do it.
23:19:37 <GregorR> YES
23:20:13 -!- coppro has joined.
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23:20:42 <GregorR> ehird: ... YES?
23:20:48 <ehird> OKAY SIR
23:20:57 <ehird> WAIT. GregorR?
23:21:08 <ehird> JUST MY KEYBOARD.
23:21:11 <ehird> .........
23:21:16 <ehird> I'M NOT SURE WHAT TO DO.
23:21:36 <GregorR> Uh, buy a USB->MIDI adapter? :P
23:21:51 <ehird> GregorR: THAT TAKES WORK.
23:23:05 <ehird> GregorR: Did you know that you could send messages to appear on an mt-32's display?
23:23:08 <ehird> Adventure games did that.
23:23:09 <pikhq> ehird: Your computer doesn't do MIDI? Lame soundcard.
23:23:16 <ehird> pikhq: It DOES, but I don't have a port for it.
23:23:24 <ehird> iMac. It doesn't have many ports.
23:23:33 <pikhq> (I think it more likely your computer has a gameport/MIDI port, and you just need an adapter)
23:23:34 <GregorR> Very, VERY few modern computers have MIDI ports.
23:23:38 <pikhq> ... Oh, right. *Mac*.
23:23:41 <GregorR> Even classically they had game ports with adapters.
23:23:53 <pikhq> GregorR: Mine has two, if you count game ports.
23:24:09 <pikhq> ... Fine, so that's because I have onboard sound *and* a PCI sound card.
23:24:32 <GregorR> pikhq: So, two game ports? :P
23:24:52 <pikhq> Yuh.
23:25:11 <ehird> Hmm.
23:25:28 <ehird> Guess I'll try doing a bastard computer→keyboard→mt-32→computer setup.
23:25:35 <ehird> No, wait.
23:25:38 <ehird> Guess I'll try doing a bastard computer→keyboard→mt-32→keyboard→computer setup.
23:26:15 <ehird> GregorR: The cool thing about the mt-32 was that games and stuff could reprogram its soundbank.
23:26:18 <ehird> Unlike sound cards, etc.
23:26:20 <ehird> On the fly.
23:26:37 <ehird> Like MODs!
23:27:02 <pikhq> ehird: So, like a high-quality sound card or a MIDI program.
23:27:02 <GregorR> Hm
23:27:10 <ehird> pikhq: No. MIDI soundcards cannot do that.
23:27:12 <ehird> It was a unique feature.
23:27:23 <ehird> (And why game companies loved it so much even though it cost so much and nobody had one)
23:28:37 <ehird> GregorR: Hookin' up stuff now
23:29:10 <pikhq> ehird: Some sound cards have proper synthesizers, and not just wavetables.
23:29:15 <pikhq> They're few and far between, though.
23:29:16 <ehird> pikhq: Not back then.
23:30:37 <pikhq> Oh. 80s.
23:31:01 <ehird> pikhq: and 90s
23:31:06 <ehird> GregorR: does it generate any stero?
23:31:07 <ehird> stereo
23:31:10 <ehird> I only have one lead, so mono output
23:31:34 <pikhq> Late 90s is about when soundcards got better than wavetable.
23:31:39 <GregorR> ehird: No, no stereo.
23:31:47 <ehird> k
23:33:42 <ehird> GregorR: all hooked up
23:33:45 <ehird> now to figure out how to send shit
23:39:51 * oerjan suggests an excremental approach
23:40:26 <ehird> GregorR: "Rondo will run in demo mode where random features are disabled each session."
23:40:27 <ehird> hahaha
23:40:50 <GregorR> ehird: ?
23:40:54 <ehird> GregorR: the midi playing software
23:40:58 <GregorR> Sweet :P
23:41:00 <ehird> GregorR: disabling a different feature each run is so stupdi :
23:41:01 <ehird> :P
23:41:03 <ehird> *stupid
23:41:17 <ehird> "You may choose up to 5 features"
23:41:18 <ehird> (no, really0
23:41:21 <ehird> *)
23:41:43 <Asztal> that's what they should have done for Windows Starter Edition!
23:41:47 <GregorR> I don't disbelieve you, that's just incredible.
23:42:15 <ehird> *attempts to find out how to make it send midi*
23:43:16 <ehird> GregorR: it's Taiko Drum, not Timpani, btw
23:43:29 <GregorR> ehird: Ah.
23:44:19 <ehird> >_<
23:44:24 <ehird> it doesn't let you re-pick features
23:44:25 <ehird> oh, now it does.
23:45:14 <GregorR> Is Taiko Drum a feature? ;)
23:45:31 <ehird> <me, to Rondo> JUST LET ME USE MY MT-32!!!
23:46:22 * ehird tries "Mighty MIDI"
23:47:17 <ehird> Yes!
23:47:20 <ehird> It seems to be able to do it
23:47:30 <ehird> GregorR: This will be rather WTFy...
23:47:40 <ehird> I'll have to start a recording in GarageBand,
23:47:45 <ehird> then tell Mighty MIDI to play it
23:47:48 <ehird> then stop when it stops.
23:49:14 <ehird> ok, it's sending to the kb
23:49:30 <ehird> but we're not getting anything back
23:50:23 <ehird> GregorR: problem identified
23:50:29 <ehird> the mt-32 isn't blinking, so it isn't getting anything
23:50:51 <ehird> think i gotta change some settings on the kb
23:55:04 <ehird> okie dokie
23:55:04 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/dsnmkp/TellinglyAccessibleJig.mid // three-track autocomposed :)
23:55:21 <ehird> GregorR: d'you think maybe "midi out" is it
23:55:24 <ehird> ((or "panic"))
23:55:28 <ehird> actually it might be "Local"
23:55:34 * ehird reads manual
23:55:52 <ehird> aha
23:55:57 <ehird> The MIDI Out Mode key (G#2) determines what data is sent to the external MIDI Out port Pressing this key in Edit mode will
23:55:57 <ehird> toggle between two options:
23:55:59 <ehird> 1) MIDI coming from the computer via USB is sent to the external MIDI Out port
23:56:01 <ehird> 2) MIDI from the Keyboard is sent to the USB and external MIDI Out ports
23:59:02 <ehird> GregorR: that tellingly accessible jig is way too accessible
23:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: needs moar percussion
23:59:08 <GregorR> :P
23:59:19 <oerjan> ^help
23:59:20 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:59:35 <oerjan> ^source
23:59:36 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
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