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08:00:18 <Slereah> ACME stress is the stress provoked by dynamite explosion
08:43:36 <immibis> what's a good client that supports utf-8?
08:44:00 <immibis> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
08:44:17 <immibis> od client that supports utf-8?
08:44:17 <immibis> [19:43] <immibis> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
08:57:26 <immibis> there are six outgoing irc connections from normish? (and four logged in users)
08:58:40 <immibis> or they just left their computer on
08:58:51 <coppro> no memory errors in my code
08:59:06 <immibis> one user has four connections O_o
08:59:08 <coppro> which is always a good sign, especially when chasing memory bugs
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09:13:48 <immibis> ais523, you made a rubicon forum account?
09:16:11 <ais523> although less recently
09:16:51 <immibis> i solved your puzzles #1 and #3, i think the machine in my solution to #3 has been around for a while
09:20:16 <ais523> my solution to #3 is an insertion sort, which I think is pretty elegant in Rubicon
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09:23:56 <ais523> and your solution to #1 is faster than mine
09:23:56 <ais523> or to put it another way, mine is even slower than yours
09:24:39 <ais523> immibis: I already have, on the warehouse search
09:24:55 <ais523> I thought everyone used that...
09:27:03 <immibis> mostly people use the forums - warehousing them allows you to specify a title, name, category, and means it is permanently stored
09:27:38 <ais523> lets you link solutions to levels too
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09:29:36 <Slereah> I wonder if there's a dude with an Erdos number in my university
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09:31:06 <immibis> http://kevan.org/rubicon/forums/index.php/topic,330.0.html
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09:31:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdos_number
09:31:30 <ais523> coppro: see immibis' link
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09:33:32 * oerjan notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one.
09:33:32 * immibis notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one.
09:33:51 * oerjan swats immibis -----###
09:33:52 <ais523> I don't know how to type double-acute, anyway
09:34:04 <ais523> coppro: time to make another nomic contract?
09:34:05 <immibis> damn, i forgot to make it so it only responds if my name is mentioned
09:34:16 <coppro> ais523: very possibly :D
09:34:18 <immibis> and that appears to me as: [20:33] --> [#esoteric] ACTION swats oerjan -----###
09:35:06 <immibis> because the script uses: SendCommand "/ctcp "+Channel+" ACTION "+...
09:35:17 <immibis> otherwise it would go to the channel i was in instead of the one it was sent in
09:36:11 <ais523> immibis: do actions taken by that script count as you doing them?
09:37:22 <immibis> otherwise what do you think would happen?
09:37:37 * immibis notices this is only said once
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09:37:49 <ais523> immibis: myndzi's script caused a massive row over at Agora Nomic
09:41:31 <immibis> list archive is only accessible to list members...
09:41:54 <ais523> yes, there are public archives too but they aren't linked for some reason
09:42:11 <ais523> I'm looking for the relevant messages on the CotC server, but it's being really slow atm
09:43:31 <ais523> immibis: http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2586 is the court case
09:43:40 <ais523> but part of the row was that the relevant evidence wasn't attached to it
09:44:43 <ais523> immibis: here's the myndzi-related parts of the business archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=myndzi&l=agora-business%40agoranomic.org
09:49:03 <coppro> ais523: what do barrels do?
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09:49:11 <ais523> coppro: same thing as crates
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09:49:18 <ais523> but involving barrels in arithmetic gives you barrels not crates
09:49:27 <ais523> and barrels can't be used to satisfy victory conditions
09:49:28 <coppro> and you can't win with them?
09:50:33 <immibis> the point is that you can still use put data in the level but you can't just put the right number on top of the target and win easily
09:52:00 <immibis> btw just try and make me register on agora with my script
09:52:19 <ais523> immibis: because you want to run a test?
09:52:37 <ais523> we've registered entities which weren't actually playing for ages, including the entire country of Canada
09:52:53 <ais523> coppro: oh, right, just declared Canada to be a person
09:53:03 <ais523> immibis: not any of its citizens; just Canada itself
09:53:57 <coppro> It was part of a (successful) attempt to make Canada win
09:54:01 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:54:08 <ais523> heh, immibis turned off the script
09:54:55 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:54:56 * immibis agrees to the following private barbeque with ais523, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any IRC channel to this barbeque can act on behalf of any other IRC channel to cause em to register. This barbeque terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:55:39 <ais523> although that gives me an idea for a different test
09:55:54 <coppro> is it just me, or is it odd that private contracts by default are joined by announcement?
09:56:03 <ais523> coppro: agreed it's odd
09:56:09 <ais523> but this conversation should probably move to ##nomic
09:56:48 <coppro> I defined the wrong symbol!
09:56:54 <coppro> have to do another hourlong recompile!
09:57:03 <immibis> ARGH OH MY GOD ITS THE END OF THE WORLD
09:57:03 <ais523> what are you compiling?
09:57:16 <immibis> it runs the compiles in parallel
09:57:21 <coppro> a wxWidgets application and yes, even with -j still takes forever
09:57:24 <ais523> immibis: not all makefiles work with -j
09:57:32 <ais523> because they're often badly written
09:57:35 <immibis> also make sure to set a reasonable limit on -j
09:57:44 <ais523> (C-INTERCAL works fine with -j, though)
09:57:48 <coppro> thankfully this one works with -j
09:58:00 <coppro> probably because it's autotools
09:58:14 <coppro> but anyway, it's a wxWidgets application and I think there's a problem in w
09:58:32 <coppro> so I need to compile the debug version of the library, which is NOT ABI-compatible (yes, really)
09:58:39 <immibis> btw i am in ##nomic if you still want to try and make me register
09:58:39 <coppro> err, not the debug version
09:58:45 <coppro> but recompile my code to the debug library
09:59:41 <coppro> on the plus side, thanks so some recent sanitization that I think is due to GTK, I can now actually find what I'm looking for in the Valgrind output
09:59:46 <coppro> and hopefully fix this bug once and for all
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10:16:19 <coppro> solution: run program in valgrind always
10:17:02 <coppro> WHAT IDIOT OPTIMIZED THE DEBUGGING LIBRARIES
10:21:02 <coppro> sorry, am now really annoyed
10:21:43 <coppro> seriously, who optimizes debugging libraries?
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10:23:54 <atrapado> are you pointing to something that points to something
10:31:03 <atrapado> and shake the body of the function
10:31:43 <ais523> coppro: well, I optimize libyuk
10:31:47 <ais523> and that's a library which is also a debugger
10:33:59 <coppro> you aren't optimizing the debug verison of it, do you?
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11:51:56 <ais523> atrapado: I'm an electronic and computer engineer
11:52:18 <atrapado> yo do computers or computers with computers
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12:00:27 <atrapado> ais523: problems with connection ?
12:00:40 <ais523> the wireless here is rather dodgy
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12:03:00 <atrapado> you will have to de wire less it
12:04:14 <ais523> or use a different connection
12:04:20 <ais523> we aren't allowed to use wired connections here
12:04:33 <ais523> I don't have wireless at home
12:04:37 <ais523> this is the university connection
12:04:49 <ais523> and their wireless routers handle people's laptops, the wired ones don't
12:04:58 <ais523> there /are/ plugs, but you get in trouble if you try to use them
12:05:02 <ais523> and also, they don't work
12:05:08 <ais523> because it's tied to a MAC address
12:06:45 <ais523> that's the real problem, the authentication here is really complex
12:06:53 <ais523> and every now and then the routers decide you aren't allowed to use them
12:07:08 <atrapado> yes, encryption in an illusion
12:18:17 <ais523> atrapado: just build a quantum computer
12:18:20 <ais523> that'll be more generally useful
12:19:07 <atrapado> yes, but i am thinking about what is the most useful thing i can do with this computers, and is break the illusions of cryptography
12:20:20 <atrapado> and all that is build over them
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13:31:08 <ais523> haha: Windows 7's version number is not actually 7
13:31:09 <ais523> http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/14/why-7.aspx
13:31:28 <ais523> apparently it's 6.1, because loads of applications break when they change the Windows major version number
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13:58:56 <GregorR> ais523: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
14:01:57 <GregorR> "Windows 6.1" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
14:02:29 <GregorR> Also, "application compatibility" means some retard was stupid enough to do if (WindowsGetMajorRevisionNumberEx() == 6) instead of >= 6
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14:15:37 <AnMaster> didn't they change major number at vista?
14:15:53 <AnMaster> so wouldn't that have broken lots of stuff too?
14:17:21 <GregorR> Yes, that's why they didn't change it at 7.
14:17:44 <GregorR> Which means that when people "fixed" things for Vista, they "fixed" them with == instead of >= :P
14:17:51 <GregorR> Because they didn't learn their bloody lessons.
14:17:56 <AnMaster> they are two different integers right? as in int major; int minor;?
14:18:05 * AnMaster prefers when both are packed into one
14:18:08 <ais523> well, my guess is that people expect programs to break across Windows major versions
14:18:11 <ais523> so used == deliberately
14:18:30 <ais523> I know I expect programs to break over Windows major versions, just based on personal experience
14:18:37 <AnMaster> like MMmmpp so 7.0.1 would be #define FOO_VERSION 070001
14:18:43 <AnMaster> which is way easier to compare against
14:19:23 <AnMaster> since you don't have to do "if (major == 7 && patch >= 1) || (major > 7)" or similar
14:20:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't remember ever having an old program break on a new Mac OS Classic version. No idea about OS X since I haven't used it a lot.
14:20:37 <AnMaster> but on classic MacOS you could easily run system 6 or system 7 programs on MacOS 9
14:22:20 <AnMaster> I wonder why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form has valgrind listed in "See also"
14:22:27 <GregorR> Mac OS X is /all about/ breaking things between versions.
14:22:29 <AnMaster> there is no other mention of valgrind in the page...
14:22:43 <AnMaster> and valgrind is afaik totally unrelated to SSA
14:23:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: Valgrind authors go around to very-indirectly-related pages and add themselves to "see also"
14:23:35 <AnMaster> I have a hard time to believe that is not a joke
14:23:54 <AnMaster> but since you said that so seriously, it is hard to know.
14:23:55 <GregorR> That's because it is a joke you oblivious person you :P
14:25:04 <GregorR> I find humor in others' struggle to determine whether I'm joking.
14:25:09 <GregorR> Therefore net humor goes up either way.
14:25:40 <ais523> I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies"
14:25:44 <ais523> and it reminded me of GregorR
14:26:31 <AnMaster> <ais523> I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" <-- err... Isn't the first three words the title of some famous book iirc.
14:26:43 <ais523> it is that famous book, just with more zombies
14:26:53 <GregorR> Actually the first four words. "Pride and Prejudice and"
14:27:15 <AnMaster> I haven't read that book though. But from what remember hearing about it... zombies seems very out of place.
14:27:29 <GregorR> Zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo.
14:28:02 <GregorR> (My summary of Pride and Prejudice is "upper-class twits", btw)
14:29:07 <AnMaster> how did someone even get the idea "lets make a parody of Pride and Prejudice that adds zombies"...
14:29:38 <GregorR> *ahem*, zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo.
14:30:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm not sure I agree.
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14:36:34 <ais523> ok, can anyone here guess what 'echo 0.15-0.05;' prints in PHP 5.2.4?
14:37:37 <AnMaster> ais523, obviously not 0.10. Or you wouldn't have asked.
14:37:51 <AnMaster> ais523, is it only that specific version?
14:38:25 <ais523> 0.15 - 0.05 = 0.09999999999999999167
14:38:38 <ais523> and PHP apparently rounds the 9 up to a colon
14:38:42 <ais523> which is the next character in ASCII
14:39:33 <AnMaster> I wonder how it does floating point to text conversion then...
14:39:47 <AnMaster> obviously it doesn't use the one found in libc
14:39:51 <AnMaster> or that wouldn't have happened
14:39:53 <Deewiant> Ah, I thought : was below 0, not after 9. I was wondering how it got there.
14:40:43 <AnMaster> clearly using snprintf isn't good enough for php
14:43:40 <AnMaster> Hm I haven't found any good online resource for how to implement SSA. I mean, the actual algorithms, what sort of data structure works and so on.
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15:04:47 <AnMaster> interesting, I have some sort of semi SSA, which is correct, but can't correctly be converted back...
15:05:44 * AnMaster tries to work out some other way to convert back to non-SSA form
15:06:41 <AnMaster> (or semi-SSA rather, as I haven't implemented the parts to handle branches yet, so currently it only works inside a single basic blocks.)
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16:08:35 <ais523> GregorR-L: for a moment, I thought you were getting EgoBot to do that
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16:17:20 <Slereah> !swedish I'm hackable, lawl
16:20:19 <pikhq> Too foreign for the chef, huh?
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16:22:43 <pikhq> Doesn't stop it there.
16:23:03 <ais523> it's just doubling the fs
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17:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hey GregorR- I'm expanding my horizons a bit and trying to learn some Javascript, and I was wondering if you could help me debug something.
17:03:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm trying to implement a simple permutation generator in JS and something's tripping me up. Any idea what I'm doing wrong here? http://pastebin.com/m10d6da5c
17:03:50 <GregorR-L> (Ironically, you're asking this right as I'm writing a presentation on the JS typesystem :P )
17:04:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I realize bitwise stuff is kinda hairy in JS, but looking at the docs this seems like it should work
17:04:45 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Stay in here more often, man. :P
17:05:06 <GregorR-L> Bitwise stuff is actually fairly usable and consistent, so long as you never accidentally make things become floats.
17:05:07 <pikhq> We don't bite, we just do silly stuff.
17:05:14 <pikhq> !c printf("Really!\n");
17:05:23 <pikhq> See, EgoBot agrees!
17:05:26 <RodgerTheGreat> It's just so much of a pain to connect to two servers. My Wifi is flaky.
17:05:37 <pikhq> That's... Terrible.
17:05:48 <GregorR-L> Idonno, looks right to me, what's happening?
17:06:43 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-L: well, if you run it, it generates all the combinations like "a b c d e ab ac ad ae abc abd abe"
17:06:45 <GregorR-L> (Incidentally, you should always declare your variables. Undeclared variables in JS are the root of all evil)
17:07:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I can see how that might lead to weird scoping-related shenanigans
17:08:00 <GregorR-L> This is why you declare all your variables :P
17:08:31 <GregorR-L> The alternative is PHP-style naming the variables you want to be global.
17:08:47 <pikhq> ... Or having sane scope rules.
17:08:51 <GregorR-L> The only problem with it, IMHO, is that it doesn't absolutely require that all variables be declared. If it did there would be no problem.
17:09:03 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It has sane scoping rules, but you can only get so sane when you don't require declarations.
17:09:16 <pikhq> Tcl doesn't require declarations.
17:09:24 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, so purely for my edification, could you rewrite it with declarations how you'd do it?
17:09:37 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: Add "var x;" before the for loop. Done.
17:09:43 <pikhq> The scope for an undeclared variable is... The current scope.
17:10:09 <GregorR-L> pikhq: You happily use x, then some idiot names a top-level variable x and everything breaks.
17:10:19 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Same with Python, and it's garbage there too.
17:10:29 <pikhq> And this is why you declare variables in Tcl. :P
17:10:36 <GregorR-L> People haven't realized that requiring variable declarations is the /only/ fix to scoping issues. PERIOD.
17:11:17 <RodgerTheGreat> there are so few genuine advantages to having undeclared vars anyway
17:11:44 <GregorR-L> It's supposed to be a convenience, but it always ends up being a trap *shrugs*
17:12:12 <pikhq> Actually, I don't happen to recall the details of Tcl's scoping rules, but I *think* global variables aren't actually... Global.
17:12:14 <RodgerTheGreat> like select statements that fall through one another without explicit breaks?
17:12:44 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: (I assume you mean cases) Heh, I wurve those :P
17:12:53 <pikhq> Just a sec while I check.
17:13:01 <GregorR-L> But then, I've had a ton of experience with them, and am extremely used to the intricacies.
17:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't look like the syntax for any other control structure, damnit!
17:13:41 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: It's the syntax for labels and gotos.
17:13:49 <pikhq> Global variables aren't global. To reference a global, you have to use $::foo, not $foo.
17:14:01 <pikhq> Or type "global foo".
17:14:10 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Well, that's disputably better. Sort of.
17:14:23 <GregorR-L> Requiring a global declaration is the PHP way
17:14:55 <GregorR-L> pikhq: (Unrelated) DAMN YOU NOW I REALLY WANT TO HEAR O9 PLAYED BY HUMANS >_<
17:15:02 <pikhq> Tcl's scoping rules get a bit tricky, since it's very, very much dynamically scoped.
17:15:44 <pikhq> upvar foo. Bam, now you can access foo in the calling proc.
17:18:47 <pikhq> That's to let the pass by name semantics work.
17:19:18 <pikhq> (in lieu of pass-by-reference, you can pass by name.)
17:28:15 <ais523> yay, I think my cyclic tag in Rubicon is working
17:28:48 <ais523> http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=rudofon
17:30:30 <ais523> I'll improve it a bit before archiving it, though
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18:05:01 <zzo38> Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to
18:05:16 <ais523> for software patents, I agree
18:05:23 <ais523> for patenting other things, I'm less sure
18:05:48 <zzo38> Also, the log 09.06.19 has control characters that cannot be viewed as text and therefore is unviewable in my browser
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18:06:11 <zzo38> I am against *all* patents (it is on my Wikipedia user page)
18:06:27 <GregorR-L> Well, if it's on your Wikipedia user page, then it's Truth.
18:08:34 <tetha> yeah, why whould some company not need a patent for a new drug which required several millions in investments to get those investments back
18:08:38 <tetha> medcine is bad anyway
18:09:00 <ais523> I'm annoyed that there isn't a better method to fund companies to produce drugs
18:09:03 <ais523> there /ought/ to be one
18:09:07 <ais523> just I can't think of one
18:09:25 <pikhq> Drug patents are one of the few areas where the current patent system actually works *as designed*.
18:09:29 <zzo38> I know one thing, my company will never patent anything nor allow anyone who runs my company to patent anything, and also not allow these things to be patented by other people/companies because the idea that could be patented are public domain instead
18:09:31 <ais523> the issue is that the government are incompetent
18:09:36 <ais523> no matter which government
18:09:46 <zzo38> Yes the government is incompetent in a lot of things
18:10:40 <zzo38> Morse-Thue (or Thue-Morse) sequence in FlogScript: 29 characters.
18:10:41 * ais523 just proved Rubicon Turing-complete, given an infinite playfield
18:10:44 <tetha> zzo38: I think there are at least two types of patents, purely intelectual ones like 'tabs', and quite physical ones, like drugs mentioned above
18:10:45 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:11:00 <tetha> zzo38: I think the major difference is the amount of money invested to get that thing you want to patent
18:11:02 <ais523> actually, drugs are relatively intellectual too
18:11:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
18:11:15 <ais523> you can summarize a drug by its chemical formula
18:11:19 <ais523> which is short and simple to transmit
18:11:37 <tetha> ais523: still, a lot of science is needed to get this formula. for tabs, just some hacker had to get this bright idea and then it was there
18:11:38 <pikhq> True. Still, at least the damned patent system *does its job* with those.
18:11:44 <zzo38> Purely physical artistic design non-functional patents should be somehow merged with the trademark system, and other patents should be abolished.
18:11:55 <pikhq> There's a lot of fields (most of them, really) where the patent system doesn't work.
18:12:03 <ais523> tetha: I agree; the problem is that drugs are hugely expensive to set up in the first place
18:12:11 <ais523> maybe some sort of bounty system would work
18:12:27 <zzo38> Patents may have worked in the past, but with the way things just are now, patents should no longer exist.
18:12:32 <ais523> where drug companies, instead of patents, had exclusive rights to their drugs until they'd made a certain amount of profit
18:12:36 <tetha> pikhq: I am aware of this, there are just areas where patents allow research to go on
18:12:39 <pikhq> In the case of software, because a patent system just plain doesn't work. In the case of most other things, because a patent application doesn't actually describe the invention.
18:12:53 <ACMESTRESS> i don't think the real issue is software patents
18:12:58 <ais523> once they'd got the set amount of profit (which would be quite large, and allow them to recoup all their expenses), it would be opened up to competition
18:13:00 <ACMESTRESS> it's hilarious term limits on all patents
18:13:18 <ais523> actually, if term limits were sane, software patents would be too
18:13:27 <ais523> a sensible time limit for a software patent would be on the order of a couple of months
18:13:37 <pikhq> ACMESTRESS: It's a patent on math. That's not the sole issue with the modern patent system, but it's a large one.
18:13:57 <tetha> indeed, if you can deevelop the next generation of web browsing, it might be nice that microsoft can't steal it from you the day after you publish it :)
18:14:32 <ACMESTRESS> anybody who develops 'the next generation of web browsing' and admits to it is a super duper crackpot
18:14:40 <ais523> and the reason software patents are unnecessary is that a fair length of time for them to be enforced is about the same length of time it'll take other companies to work out how to copy you anyway
18:14:41 <zzo38> Trademarks and limited copyright are good enough for my company, I won't need patents. For Free Software stuff it will use the normal copyright terms, for non-Free stuff it will use limited copyright terms, in order to make it more fair.
18:14:56 <tetha> ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C
18:15:00 <ais523> incidentally, the original purpose behind patents was to persuade people to publish details of their inventions
18:15:14 <zzo38> I don't care if Microsoft makes software to do the same thing as long as they do not deny me to do it also.
18:15:16 <ais523> tetha: twice as fast as C would be rather impressive
18:15:22 <ACMESTRESS> tetha: or perhaps a kind of chewing gum that allows you to grow a hand out of your rectum
18:15:28 <ais523> ok, C isn't the fastest language theoretically possible, but I doubt it's twice as slow as that
18:15:36 <zzo38> ais523: I know. But with the current state of society that is no longer reasonable.
18:15:38 <tetha> ais523: there are persons who cannot take some silly example as a silly example just to have a name for something
18:15:41 <pikhq> ais523: Not just "original". A patent system that doesn't do that is unconstitutional.
18:15:50 <Slereah> The fastest language is the Osmosian
18:16:04 <pikhq> Slereah: With hand-assembled ASM.
18:16:38 <ais523> pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution
18:16:57 <GregorR-L> <ais523> pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution // OR ARE THEY
18:17:02 <zzo38> Writing in machine codes are make the program run more faster if you know how to optimize the codes.
18:17:18 <ais523> zzo38: but nobody does, with modern processors
18:17:25 <tetha> zzo38: probably only for a single machine, though
18:17:26 <pikhq> Sorry, for some reason I assume that these discussions are limited to the US; I forget that it's not just the US being completely and utterly dumb.
18:17:26 <ais523> a perfectly optimal hello world would probably take years
18:17:33 <tetha> zzo38: or, rather, a single architecture
18:17:44 <ais523> pikhq: well, the EU doesn't enforce software patents
18:17:53 <ais523> Ireland will allow you to file them anyway, but you can't sue over them
18:17:55 <zzo38> I should make the Unpatentable Ideas List, where anyone can post ideas/inventions on that list and automatically makes it public domain and unpatentable. And then the computer will mix them up and make up its own ideas too.
18:18:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Pity that prior art doesn't get to be a reason for a patent to not be accepted.
18:18:32 <pikhq> Microsoft has patents with prior art given in the application.
18:18:33 <ais523> it is a reason in theory, but in practice, nobody checks
18:19:35 <zzo38> This ideas of "Unpatentable Ideas List" was already done by some people I think, or they are planning to, or something like that, but my idea is to add on to that, the computer will also make up its own ideas as well.
18:21:04 <GregorR-L> Blacklisting is bad. Whitelisting is good.
18:21:07 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:21:18 <ehird_> ais523: freenode have permanently banned mibbit
18:21:21 <ehird_> for no apparent reason
18:21:37 <ais523> I was on here via mibbit then
18:21:55 <ehird_> so im using the shitty pjirc, on a laptop where half the keys--including the apostrophe-- dont work
18:22:02 <ehird_> my neighbours. since our phone line is broken.
18:22:03 <zzo38> O. I just use the (c: copy URL) function of my web-browser to view it downloading by wget. Vonkeror tells me the MIME type is application/octet-stream but wget tells me it is text/plain, why is that?
18:22:12 <ehird_> http://blog.mibbit.com/?p=306
18:22:35 <ehird_> anyway, hi! at least, hi until my neighbour decides that theyd quite like their computer back.
18:22:55 <ais523> ehird_: this is what I've been up to: http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=voladik
18:23:15 <ehird_> it would be quite nice if pjirc supported clicking links. copy paste time with rubbish nipple mouse, ahoy
18:23:27 <ehird_> it just doesnt highlight them in any way.
18:23:39 <ehird_> hahaha that just gives you text to copy
18:23:42 <ehird_> kick ass irc client here
18:23:53 <ais523> does that computer have Java?
18:23:59 <ais523> I don't mind it nearly as much as I mind Flash
18:24:04 <ais523> and that's a Java-based game
18:24:11 <ais523> to be precise, a Turing-completeness proof for it
18:24:18 <ehird_> yes, im talking via a java thingy.
18:24:25 <ehird_> pjirc. worst client, evar
18:24:29 <ehird_> blognomic uses it too for their web chat
18:24:47 <ehird_> zzo38: if only it had netcat.
18:24:50 <ehird_> it probably has telnet.
18:24:55 <ehird_> but zzo38, half the keys dont work
18:25:01 <ehird_> : does, but thats a miracle
18:25:05 <ais523> ehird_: windows comes with Telnet, but you have to enable it for some reason
18:25:08 <zzo38> Can that telnet be placed in linemode? In character-mode it won't work well for IRC
18:25:08 <ehird_> i cant even type an apostrophe!
18:25:14 <ehird_> ais523: err, not on the CLI
18:25:22 <ais523> ehird_: yes on the CLI
18:25:29 <ais523> but you have to flip an option in the GUI somewhere first
18:25:34 <ais523> to make the command-line telnet there
18:25:37 <ais523> by default, it isn't there
18:25:48 <zzo38> Is it physically the keyboard that is broken?
18:25:49 <ehird_> ais523: id have thought youd prefer flash to java, it uses ecmascript
18:26:06 <pikhq> I'm of the opinion that Windows should come with Interix.
18:26:10 <pikhq> ... And deprecate Win32.
18:26:13 <ais523> ehird_: Sun's security record is rather better than Adobe's
18:26:30 <ehird_> ais523: i have no idea how to play that game, but it runs!
18:26:48 <ais523> ehird_: you know RUBE?
18:26:49 <pikhq> ais523: Java's also free software these days.
18:26:50 <zzo38> [1 -1]{.At{~*.97+2/Pc}%P_F<}~
18:26:59 <pikhq> And it's quite a bit speedier than Flash.
18:26:59 <ais523> pikhq: technically speaking, Flash is also an open standard
18:27:04 <ais523> at least, they opened up the specs
18:27:13 <ehird_> ais523: have you looked at the draconian conditions on it
18:27:20 <ehird_> iirc they include "no third party implementations"
18:27:25 <pikhq> No. Those specs are only available for someone designing a Flash file creator.
18:27:25 <ais523> ehird_: no, they relaxed the conditions
18:27:29 <ehird_> also i would quite like a question mark key, maybe ill buy a separate one
18:27:40 <ehird_> pikhq: java is faster than flash, but applets are far more flickery and unreliable
18:27:43 <ais523> and that's a seriously messed-up keyboard
18:27:51 <ehird_> ais523: well it has the keys, they just dont do anything
18:27:57 <pikhq> ehird_: That's a function of a bad plugin.
18:28:06 <ais523> Java's pretty stable over here
18:28:16 <ais523> although it does crash randomly every now and then claiming "out of memory"
18:28:16 <ehird_> pikhq: yes, javas plugin IS bad.
18:28:24 <pikhq> Java's pretty stable and un-flickery over here.
18:28:26 <ais523> ehird_: there's more than one
18:28:32 <ais523> the Sun plugin and the open source one are the two main ones
18:28:41 <ehird_> those are implementations
18:28:44 <ehird_> dont call them "plugins"
18:28:52 <ehird_> icedtea sucks royal ass anyway
18:28:54 <ais523> ehird_: the implementations come with plugins
18:28:56 <pikhq> ehird_: They also have different plugins.
18:29:05 <pikhq> How the fuck does icedtea suck ass?
18:29:12 <ehird_> pikhq: last time i used icedtea it just didnt work with shit
18:29:24 <ehird_> the bottom of this laptop is hot enough to hurt when you touch it
18:29:32 <pikhq> What did you use? A pre-alpha SVN checkout?
18:29:33 <ehird_> methinks it has a decidedly suboptimal cooling system
18:29:34 <ais523> what sort of laptop is that?
18:29:39 <ais523> and why aren't you on your own computer?
18:29:45 <ehird_> ais523: an "ultraportable" from 2004
18:29:46 <pikhq> It works perfectly.
18:30:00 <ehird_> so regular 2009 laptop weight
18:30:08 <zzo38> Even though I don't have any Flash on my computer, I have used FLASM to modify a game in Flash for someone once.
18:30:21 <ehird_> ais523: and because our phone line is busted and i havent bothered trying to connect to this wireless network on my mac
18:30:30 <pikhq> (seriously, it is a 100% compliant Java implementation. ... Oh, yeah, and it's just a minor patch to the GPL Java dump that makes it work without proprietary junk)
18:30:30 <ehird_> so im just using the laptop i used to grab the WPA key
18:30:42 <ehird_> pikhq: mayhaps im thinking of another thing
18:30:47 <ehird_> ais523: stealing wireless with permission
18:30:53 <pikhq> ehird_: Maybe you're thinking of GCJ.
18:31:03 <ais523> ehird_: as in, they said you could use it but didn't tell you the key?
18:31:12 <pikhq> Which is a complete compiler, but doesn't have a complete runtime environment at all.
18:31:13 <ehird_> ais523: otherwise this would be a stolen laptop tooa
18:31:20 <ehird_> theyre computer illiterate. so they just gave me it to get stuff.
18:31:24 <zzo38> One day I will also invent Hypernet.
18:31:54 <zzo38> HyperNet packets can be sent over any protocol or medium, is encrypted, uses mirrors and backups of files, and nobody can stop it from happening.
18:32:37 <ais523> this morning atrapado was claiming that he was going to break all the world's encryption schemes
18:32:39 <ehird_> zzo38: just use astralnet; to insert, take the crc32 and the sha512 of a packet; this is the key
18:32:40 <ais523> to prove to people that they were insecure
18:32:57 <ehird_> to retrieve a packet, generate random strngs until then crc32 and sha512 match
18:33:05 <ehird_> theres actually a perl implementation :)
18:33:13 <ehird_> ais523: now i have to logread, BAH!
18:34:10 <pikhq> ais523: ... Impressive.
18:34:13 <zzo38> That "astralnet" seems not working well
18:34:44 <ehird_> zzo38: it works just fine; its just a bit slow
18:34:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
18:34:50 <ehird_> but you cannot, simply cannot, stop a packet from being sent
18:35:06 <ehird_> and the only likely failure - which is in itself extremely unlikely - is getting other data, probably garbage, back
18:35:26 <zzo38> It would seem very slow if the decryption worked like that.
18:37:22 <ais523> how many bits are there in a crc32 and sha512 hash together?
18:37:24 <zzo38> HyperNet will be designed to use infinite-dimentional integer coordinates in a virtual Euclidean space with an origin, and use an encryption key as part of the URL. Also any service can have as many addresses and/or files as they want.
18:37:33 <ais523> you're bound to get loads of collisions even with relatively short packets
18:37:40 <ais523> as in, not a lot in absolute terms
18:37:49 <ais523> but you're likely to hit collisions before you hit what you actually want
18:37:53 <ais523> both of which will take millenia
18:37:55 <zzo38> And also, you store encrypted copies of files you don't know what they are on many mirrors.
18:38:00 <Deewiant> What if a transmission error occurred; you don't know which hash to trust
18:38:12 <ehird_> ais523: err, 512=512 bits
18:38:18 <ais523> Deewiant: use a hash of the hashes
18:38:30 <zzo38> And, URL format will be invented. The other format that will be invented is a way of indicating HyperNet file descriptors in a gopher menu.
18:38:31 <ehird_> ais523: use like 128 byte packets.
18:39:00 <zzo38> For example, the host field could say @ and the port field gives the HyperNet descriptor for the file you want.
18:39:31 <zzo38> So there are two basic protocols on HyperNet, file protocol and command protocol.
18:40:02 <Deewiant> ais523: I was thinking: add a third hash and find a string for which any two match; if the third doesn't, request a retransmission
18:40:17 <zzo38> For interactive sessions, you would set up a session key and method of communication over HyperNet ahead of time, and then use phone or internet or whatever to enter the interactive mode (like telnet, for example).
18:40:45 <ais523> actually, because CRC-32 can be reversed really easily
18:40:52 <ais523> all you'd need is to brute-force the SHA512 hash
18:41:19 <ais523> there's no known method better than just trying every string
18:41:26 <ais523> so you'd need to try 2^512 strings on average
18:42:01 <ehird_> ais523: the idea is that since 512 is slow, you use crc32
18:42:06 <ehird_> and only 512 if that matches
18:42:10 <ehird_> so the crc is just an optimization
18:43:21 <zzo38> One security algorithm I invented (not sure how secure it is) is HEXARC, which is like ARCFOUR with the text running both reverse and forward, random amount of random garbage added on, and feedback in the coding.
18:43:45 <zzo38> The key is also longer.
18:44:15 <ehird_> How to test the strength of a crypto algorithm:
18:44:21 <ehird_> 1. Did you write it -> its insecure
18:44:33 <ehird_> 2. Did experienced cryptographers write it and is it generally considered secure -> it might be secure for now
18:44:49 <zzo38> O. Really? Many pople wrote other algorithm, who is insecure?
18:45:03 <pikhq> 0. If this is for DRM purposes, don't.
18:45:05 <ehird_> All of them, unless youre really good at cryptography.
18:45:07 <ehird_> 10:05:01 <zzo38> Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to
18:45:12 <ehird_> abolish patents! Abolish copyright!
18:45:14 <zzo38> Are you sure? Sometimes it is found to be wrong that it isn't as secure as they thought it is
18:45:43 <ehird_> WRT the medicine argument -
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18:45:46 <zzo38> This algorithm is not for DRM purposes.
18:45:51 <ehird_> see the pirate party websitefor a rebuttal
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18:47:09 <ehird_> 10:14:56 <tetha> ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C
18:47:13 <ehird_> lisp on a good lisp machine
18:47:43 <zzo38> I agree with the second and third issues, and I partially agree with the first issue. There should be a better way to reform copyright. But I agree with abolished patent system and right to privacy.
18:47:55 <tetha> ah, ehird is reading logs, get ready for extreme out-of-context-argumentation
18:47:59 <zzo38> I don't like the Python program language.
18:48:19 <pikhq> zzo38, thou art silly.
18:48:25 <pikhq> In fact, þou art ſilly.
18:48:45 <ehird_> i only argue with those who are wrong :)
18:49:11 <ehird_> zzo38: copyright doesnt need reform; whats the source of this belief that everything needs reforming and abolishment is never the right option
18:49:21 <ehird_> i wonder if people said "the prohibition needs reform, not abolishment!"
18:49:38 <zzo38> Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party.
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18:50:18 <tetha> I think comparing the ban of alcohol and the investment required to research new drugs is a really nice comparision :)
18:50:26 <pikhq> zzo38: They're already a proper political party.
18:50:35 <ais523> ehird_4: ehird_1, ehird_2, and ehird_3 turned up and left again
18:50:37 <ehird_4> tetha: stfu and read the pirate partys rebuttal to that before spouting more nonsense
18:50:40 <ais523> without much comment other than "hi"
18:50:44 <zzo38> O. Thanks for telling me. It just seemed to me that they couldn't be.
18:50:51 <ehird_4> ais523: weird. what did zzo38 say about the pirate party
18:50:54 <tetha> ehird_4: then give me a link, since, y'know, the pirates wiki aint small.
18:51:08 <ais523> ehird_4: <zzo38> Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party.
18:51:33 <tetha> ehird_4: k, so you can't bother enough to just give me a link to this precise article. appears that your argumentation is serious enough
18:51:35 <ehird_4> tetha: http://www.piratpartiet.se/an_alternative_to_pharmaceutical_patents
18:51:40 <ehird_4> tetha: im on an unusable laptop
18:51:54 <ehird_4> zzo38: pirate party are getting a seat in the european parliament
18:51:54 <tetha> good that Im psycic
18:52:05 <zzo38> The term of copyright should be dependent on various things. Five years is too short, although the current terms are way too long.
18:52:18 <ehird_4> tetha: good that you cant read what i said earlier
18:52:46 <pikhq> If we're going to have copyright apply to software, we need source escrow.
18:52:58 <tetha> good that I think this channel is nothing for me due to some persons
18:52:58 <pikhq> Release the source code once it hits public domain.
18:53:10 -!- tetha has left (?).
18:53:27 <zzo38> Also, file sharing and p2p over internet and stuff should remain as illegal as it is for copying of illegal stuff, however, the police and ISP and government and so on should not be allowed to care about such things, so you can do it as though it were legal if it is over the internet.
18:53:32 <ehird_4> pikhq: tethas pissy that i existr
18:53:40 <ehird_4> well fuck you too tetha :)
18:54:07 <ehird_4> "it should be illegal but no punishment or enforcement"
18:54:19 <zzo38> Also, there should not be complete ban on DRM, but instead there should be forced to be warning labels about DRM on products (like food warning labels are), and also make it perfectly legal to remove DRM, complain, circumvent, tell other people how, and so on.
18:55:06 <zzo38> No, it doesn't mean it should be legal. What it means is that if you go to a store on a street corner or whatever that that is what they do even if no money or any other sort of payment, the police can still arrest them.
18:55:40 <zzo38> But if it is simply a generic service (like random HyperNet transfers over disk), the police can't do anything about it
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18:58:49 <zzo38> Non-commercial use should be freely available for private uses, even among other people who it is not a public service. How "private" that some things should be considered can be debated, but don't make it too restrictive or too non-restrictive, you need the right balance to make things considered privately.
18:59:40 <zzo38> And this would also mean, if you go to library to photocopy something, you are allowed to make as much photocopying as you want to as long as you pay the fee for each sheet of paper you make copies.
18:59:55 <zzo38> (That is, the library photocopying fee, not the copyright fee)
19:00:43 <zzo38> Also, books and files and stuff should include the author's addresses so that you can still choose to pay the author as much money as you want, regardless of how those things were being obtained.
19:01:01 <zzo38> (Of course that is not a law, it is just a suggestion that authors must follow)
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19:02:36 <zzo38> The "patent and trademark office" would become just the "trademark office". That's good things.
19:03:27 <zzo38> Also, things cannot change so immediately, there needs to be a transition period.
19:03:42 <zzo38> One year should be enough transition period.
19:05:01 <zzo38> Terrorists can take away my life, but they cannot take away my freedom. Only the government can take away your freedom.
19:05:42 <ehird_4> zzo38 is like an opinion and anecdote machine
19:05:45 <ais523> what if terrorists kidnap you rather than kill you?
19:06:03 <ehird_4> ais523: he has the freedom to squirm around a bit and quote the constitution
19:07:14 <zzo38> This political party is still probably just as incompetent as any other, even though they have good intentions.
19:07:48 <ehird_4> piratpartiet is small enough and close enough to TPB that theyre competent
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19:08:39 * pikhq thinks zzo38 is ignorant of how the law is implemented...
19:08:39 <zzo38> O, OK. But if they are small enough they can't really become a proper political party without much difficulty.
19:09:07 <ehird_4> zzo38: dude, they won a seat in the european parliament
19:09:26 <ehird_4> zzo38: and they have the 3rd biggest membership count in sweden
19:09:46 <ehird_4> happened in like a month or two
19:10:07 <ais523> wow, nopaste's shut down
19:10:13 <zzo38> Then they are an exception to the general rule of that, which is good. However one seat isn't everything (but it can be improved later, of rcourse).
19:11:02 <pikhq> One seat after 4 years.
19:11:06 <pikhq> That's phenomenal.
19:11:19 <ehird_4> now what will anmaster terrorize me with now
19:11:46 <zzo38> I am anti-anti-terrorist
19:11:59 <ehird_4> k bye; zzo38: you oppose people who oppose terrorists
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19:12:34 <zzo38> And people do not understand my pokemon philosophies, probably people will not understand my other thing that very well either.
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19:40:58 * oerjan senses something dark and foul-smelling
19:41:49 <oerjan> a foul-smelling one, but nevertheless
19:42:59 <GuestShadowSkunk> They change your nick to some bullshit if you forget to identify
19:47:19 * oerjan deduces the actual swedish is GästSkuggoSkunk
19:47:31 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure about the o
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19:48:55 <lament> !swedish GuuestSheduuSkuunk
19:48:56 <EgoBot> GooooestShedooooSkoooonk
19:49:02 <lament> !swedish GooooestShedooooSkoooonk
19:49:03 <EgoBot> GuuuuestSheduuuuSkuuuunk
19:50:37 <lament> !swedish oooooooooooooooooooooo
19:50:38 <EgoBot> ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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20:16:14 <lament> !swedish girls are hot
20:21:57 <olsner> that's totally how we say butt in swedish
20:22:55 <tombom> !swedish that's totally how we say butt in swedish
20:22:56 <EgoBot> thet's tutelly hoo ve-a sey boott in svedeesh
20:29:43 <pikhq> !swedish Swedish Fish
20:30:19 <pikhq> !swedise Come and see the møøse!
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20:56:59 * ehird is connected via said neighbour's wifi, but on a decent mac now.
20:57:03 * oerjan recalls there are apples
20:57:21 <ehird> It is, uh, not the fastest connection.
20:57:43 <ehird> ...actually, it seems to be quite fast.
20:57:45 -!- saburo has joined.
20:58:06 <augur> come see the møøse?! :o
20:58:13 <ehird> 1.2 megabytes/sec (= 9.6 megabits)
20:58:19 <augur> it is not points-free programming
20:58:26 <oerjan> there are møøse in the høøse!
20:58:39 <ehird> a moose loose aboot this hoose
20:58:50 <augur> ehirds turnd canadian D:
20:58:58 <oerjan> how did they get løøse?
20:59:01 <ehird> augur: it's composing just minimal programs together
20:59:03 <ehird> so yes it is point-free programming
20:59:25 <augur> no. pointsfree composes functions without reference to their arguments
20:59:40 <augur> but the functions are not complete programs
21:00:03 <oerjan> then it's shell programming :)
21:00:06 <augur> for instance, points free "avg" in J is +/ % #
21:00:06 <ehird> augur: define complete prorgam
21:00:13 <ehird> function = program
21:00:15 <augur> which is not a complete program, nor is its parts
21:00:17 <ehird> a program in unix is just:
21:00:23 <ehird> [String] -> (String,Int,etc)
21:00:32 <augur> what i mean is that i could take each thing that i compose, run it, and it would perform some full computation.
21:00:39 <ehird> saying "program" in the fully-fledged executable sense is not a particularly interesting extension
21:01:08 <augur> but i do not mean to compose functions without arguments
21:01:24 <augur> i mean to compose fully specified bits of code in some fashion
21:01:31 * oerjan generalizes augur's idea
21:01:38 <oerjan> compose entire computers!
21:01:43 <ehird> btw can I just say that +/ % # is one of the most beautiful pieces of code?
21:01:54 <augur> ehird: yes, you can.
21:02:00 <ehird> good; because it is
21:02:12 <oerjan> it's +/%# unreadable though
21:02:24 <augur> tho J's use of that is, i think, rather limited.
21:02:28 <augur> oerjan: composing computers, hm.
21:02:30 <saburo> does the that belong with the code?
21:02:34 <augur> composing turing machines
21:03:00 <oerjan> turing machines are less complicated than programs, not more
21:03:04 <ehird> augur: J does both point-free and also forks where ((v1 v2 v3) x) = ((v1 x) v2 (v3 x))
21:03:10 <ehird> which is a fairly complete tacit programming toolset
21:03:12 <oerjan> they are just String -> Maybe String, really
21:03:32 <ehird> 21:02 oerjan: it's +/%# unreadable though ← i know this was a joke, but it's really not :)
21:03:35 <oerjan> thinking of non-termination
21:03:48 <ehird> it's just vocabulary
21:03:48 <augur> ehird: i know, ehird. but forks are so trivial
21:03:56 <augur> i mean, english has forks.
21:04:04 <ehird> + is add, / modifies the previous verb to fold, % divides and # is length
21:04:17 <ehird> "addition fold divided by length"
21:04:23 <ehird> addition fold = sum
21:04:24 <oerjan> spooning your program, now
21:04:26 <ehird> "sum divided by length"
21:04:26 <augur> ehird, actually isnt +/ a predefined function, not an on-the-fly modify?
21:04:32 <ehird> augur: / is an adverb
21:04:34 <ehird> augur: (anything)/ works
21:04:58 -!- AnMaster has joined.
21:05:03 <augur> J would be sexy with some hardcore language-y aspects.
21:05:11 <ehird> hmm forget that example
21:05:15 <ehird> augur: it does have those, though!
21:05:17 <ehird> it's just very subtle
21:05:26 <ehird> it seems trivial at first, but generally you just get a gloss
21:05:31 <ehird> its actual concepts are very deep and simple
21:05:40 <augur> i know, i understand which ones it does have
21:05:49 <augur> but those are trivial compared to what real languages do
21:06:03 <ehird> augur: minimalist extensibility trumps all in the end, though
21:06:13 <augur> take a look at CCG
21:06:25 <augur> it uses a very minimal extension on top of lambda calculus
21:06:28 -!- saburo has quit.
21:06:37 <augur> adding a layer of syntactic function application
21:06:42 <augur> (combinatory categorial grammar)
21:07:12 <ehird> augur: i've always considered linguistics akin to making a formal semantics out of PHP :)
21:07:17 <augur> the result of this is that in CCG, theres like a bajillion crazy but simply-computed ways of saying something
21:07:22 <ehird> i know that's a prejudiced view
21:07:25 <ehird> but it's just my intuitive feeling
21:07:36 <augur> youve never seen syntax
21:07:48 <ehird> i'm not sure english's is :P
21:07:55 <augur> you'd be surprised
21:08:10 <augur> english, for all its hodge podge ness, is incredibly formulaic.
21:08:30 <ehird> augur: modulo a few billion special cases
21:08:44 <augur> special cases are almost entirely the domain of morphology
21:08:49 <ehird> is linguistics just syntax or sth?
21:09:00 <augur> no, syntax is a field of linguistics
21:09:11 <augur> but its /my/ domain so its all i care about ;)
21:09:33 <augur> special cases are sort of like pattern matching
21:09:44 <augur> suppose we were viewing this from a parsing perspective
21:09:49 <augur> you might have some general rule like
21:10:15 <augur> but you might have some special case like N[+saxon] + en = plural
21:10:33 <augur> ok, so what? thats just like a haskell case analysis:
21:10:47 <augur> N[+saxon] + en = plural
21:10:59 <ehird> augur: yeah, but too many pattern matches are considered inelegant in haskell too
21:11:23 <augur> and in linguistics.
21:11:41 <augur> we try to unify as many phenomena as possible, when they seem like they can be unified.
21:12:15 <augur> unfortunately, brains are powerful, and not everything is a unified phenomena
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21:13:15 <augur> i can teach you some syntax if you want.
21:13:55 -!- nescience has joined.
21:14:17 <augur> well no i dont mean right now
21:17:19 <augur> I'm actually writing a series of blog posts on the history of syntactic theory, if you want to read it. its probably more for linguists than non-linguistics but you're smart so whoknows
21:17:48 <ehird> you've only mentioned that and linked it to me 7 times now ;)
21:17:52 <ehird> wanna do it again??????
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21:32:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:38:27 <ehird> digg is advertising on reddit's job board
21:40:42 <AnMaster> ehird, some generic advert thing? Like google ads or similar?
21:40:50 <ehird> they posted a job ad :)
21:42:08 <ehird> because i'm not an idiot
21:42:15 <ehird> http://www.redditjobs.com/Jobs/Account-Executive-acb537a627cc48b88ca7ab157d6f7692.aspx
21:43:32 <AnMaster> ehird, do reddit check that they aren't fake? I guess so
21:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it fucking costs to post an ad
21:43:51 <ehird> what the hell does a fake job ad get you
21:44:00 <ehird> AnMaster: $300 for 30 days.
21:44:16 <ehird> also, there's no lulz to be had over a fake job, vs, say, a troll craigslist posting
21:44:18 <AnMaster> if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that
21:44:35 <AnMaster> ehird, lets wait for slashdot posting there too!
21:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure their mothers would agree to let them use their credit cards for that ;-)
21:44:55 <ehird> (re 21:44 AnMaster: if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that )
21:45:07 <ehird> trollsing trolling trollsies
21:45:14 <AnMaster> ehird, sadly I suspect some grown up would do it. Or I guess they could have stolen the card.
21:45:43 <AnMaster> idiots exist. It's a fact. Sadly.
21:45:54 <ehird> AnMaster: you seriously think someone over 18 would pay $10 for the amazing hilarity of... posting a job ad that in all ways resembles a real one without any thing that could make it funny?
21:45:59 <ehird> it may be your defective sense of humour speaking here
21:46:08 <oerjan> !swedish Trolls trolling trolls
21:46:09 <EgoBot> Trulls trulleeng trulls
21:46:56 <AnMaster> it's troll in Swedish too actually
21:46:57 <ehird> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx
21:47:02 <ehird> Internet Explorer: Better because we said so.
21:47:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, you knew that one would work
21:47:26 <ehird> their argument against firefox being extensible is as follows:
21:47:33 <ehird> "You don't need to extend IE because we already have features."
21:47:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually... Only for some meanings of toll iirc
21:48:05 <GregorR-L> I love the extreme vagueness of the categories.
21:48:16 <GregorR-L> Firefox doesn't have "security"! Oh nose!
21:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what so you call the guys that check your passport and such when you cross a border.
21:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Anal-retentitive?
21:48:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, the English word
21:48:41 <pikhq> To be fair, IE8 is the best IE yet.
21:48:50 <pikhq> ... It finally caught up to the Mozilla Suite!
21:49:02 <ehird> pikhq: That's going a bit too far!
21:49:38 <ehird> pikhq: It's the best IE in much the same way that this shit is the best I've had all night now that the diarrhea is fading :-P
21:49:44 <AnMaster> ah yes, Swedish tull and English toll only partially overlap in meanings. tull in Swedish can also refer to the customs
21:49:45 <ehird> And yes, that is an incredibly strained analogy.
21:49:45 <ais523> "Neither Firefox nor Chrome provide guidance or enterprise tools."
21:49:52 <AnMaster> (as in where the custom inspectors work)
21:50:00 <ais523> a) if that was true, it would be an advantage for Firefox and Chrome IMO; b) ever heard of FrontMotion?
21:50:01 <AnMaster> but it can't refer to a toll bridge I think
21:50:06 <ehird> ais523: i love how they think chrome is an actual worthy competitor :)
21:50:11 <ehird> BECAUSE EVERYONE USES CHROME
21:50:14 <ais523> the worrying thing is, it is
21:50:24 <ehird> ais523: not as far as market share, no way
21:50:28 <AnMaster> would be "avgiftsbelagd bro" or something like that
21:50:30 <ais523> the suspicion's that Google are trying to persuade OEMs to ship Chrome as default browser
21:50:37 <ais523> maybe Microsoft are trying to persuade them the other way
21:50:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually the translation was from norwegian, not english ;D
21:50:58 <oerjan> at least when i thought of it
21:51:07 <ehird> Self Reference$: _ _ _
21:51:07 <ehird> $: denotes the longest verb that contains it.
21:51:10 <ehird> wackiest recursion method evar
21:51:15 <ais523> besides, Chrome had the fastest market-share gain rate ever for a web browser, IIRC
21:51:35 <AnMaster> ais523, not odd. Linked from google's main web page a lot.
21:51:39 <ehird> ais523: yes, but that was just hype.
21:51:42 <AnMaster> haven't seen it there for a while
21:51:53 <ehird> ais523: really, chrome isn't going anywhere atm
21:52:02 <ehird> ais523: i'd bet safari for windows probably has it beat
21:52:07 <ais523> <Microsoft> Research proves that Internet Explorer 8 catches almost twice as much malware than the competition. That's "less secure?"
21:52:19 <ais523> but Safari for Windows is terrible
21:52:28 <ais523> I thought it was only installed due to deceptiveness in the iTunes installer
21:52:45 <ehird> ais523: that was stupid, but much more minor than made out to be
21:52:48 <pikhq> Safari for Windows is a test for Cocoa on Win32.
21:52:50 <ehird> ais523: it's actually quite popular, despite being terrible
21:52:56 <ehird> pikhq: fission mailed
21:53:00 <ais523> I just don't get why it would be
21:53:03 <ehird> i mean, come on guys. RESPECT THE PLATFORM!
21:53:08 <ehird> ais523: /shrug. It just is.
21:53:22 <ehird> safari on windows just makes my eyes sore
21:53:29 <ais523> ooh, IE does have addons: http://ieaddons.com/en/
21:53:30 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think they will make public the research in question on request?
21:53:32 <ais523> I wonder if it has any useful ones
21:53:45 <AnMaster> I suspect it is just pure faked
21:53:48 <ehird> ais523: there used to be tons of underground ones
21:53:53 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's unlikely to be faked
21:53:55 <ais523> <ais523> adblock <ieaddons> No items match your search.
21:54:04 <ehird> AnMaster: just biased.
21:54:08 <ehird> see: windows passing POSIX
21:54:12 <ais523> presumably they're blocking them, then
21:54:21 <ehird> AnMaster: also, "blocking malware" is vague
21:54:22 <ais523> as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays
21:54:30 <ehird> firefox doesn't do that out of the box, as far as I know
21:54:32 <ais523> ehird: "catching malware" is even funnier
21:54:45 <ehird> 21:54 ais523: as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays ← krrr! broken statistic
21:54:48 <ehird> firefox and opera do.
21:54:55 <ehird> chrome doesn't. safari does, but only on mac afaik
21:54:56 <pikhq> ehird: Windows passes POSIX when it has the POSIX subsystem installed, to be specific.
21:54:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it does warn you for some black listed domains, some list fetched from google or such iirc
21:54:59 <ehird> ais523: ok, and konqueror
21:55:03 <ehird> that's a tiny amount
21:55:05 <ais523> I'm basing it on ones I know about
21:55:11 <pikhq> ... And to be fair, the POSIX subsystem in question is in fact a mildly quirky UNIX.
21:55:15 <AnMaster> ehird, with a well hidden "go there anyway" button
21:55:18 <ehird> AnMaster: and you disabled that in case people see things like sourceforge.net, right? :D
21:55:19 <ais523> also, lynx does by not being able to render them
21:55:29 <ehird> they could be spying on your illicit open source downloads
21:55:43 <ehird> AnMaster: the list, IIRC, involves sending your every request domain to google
21:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, it downloads a list from google
21:55:49 <ehird> they may have changed that
21:55:50 <ais523> actually, I thought the firefox list fetched from Google had been discontinued
21:55:54 <AnMaster> stores it in urlclassifier3.sqlite
21:55:57 <ais523> I know that it used to be opt-in
21:55:59 <ais523> with an option on install
21:56:08 <ais523> I know, because two years ago
21:56:08 <ehird> AnMaster: it definitely used to send your every request. I think.
21:56:19 <ais523> the way the computers were configured, they installed Firefox every time you used it
21:56:20 <AnMaster> ehird, used to yes. But doesn't any more
21:56:22 <ehird> safari does that malware thing
21:56:28 <ehird> it's incredibly irritating as the site is never malicious
21:56:32 <ehird> i should turn it off
21:56:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it definitely updated more recently than 2 years ago
21:56:46 <AnMaster> err wait, I misread that I think
21:57:18 <ehird> someone give me something to code in J, i'm bored.
21:57:56 <AnMaster> ehird, a replacement for firefox that isn't using more than 50 MB RAM to view even the most bloated pages, up to 50 tabs
21:58:19 <ehird> ais523: something that doesn't involve rewriting one of the primitives in a bad fashion, preferably
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21:58:31 <ehird> AnMaster: would you like a halting checker while you're at it?
21:58:44 <ais523> ehird: well, I think it's interesting to see how various sorting algos are implemented
21:58:48 <ehird> AnMaster: btw i'm pretty sure you could get opera to use 50MB of ram with <50 tabs as long as the pages aren't ridiculous
21:58:52 <ais523> but I just realised that that doesn't fit J very well
21:58:57 <ehird> ais523: insertion sort is quite procedural
21:59:02 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, that is impossible. While what I suggested is merely incredibly hard and time consuming
21:59:17 <AnMaster> you can definitely do it I think, but recomputing instead of caching in memory
21:59:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not
21:59:26 <ais523> ehird: I think w3m can manage what you request
21:59:29 <ehird> AnMaster: "the most bloated pages" necessarily take >50MB
21:59:36 <ais523> I'm not sure if it can manage 50 tabs, but I've definitely done 3 before now
21:59:36 <ehird> ais523: I don't request anything, sir
21:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, most bloated *current* ones
21:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ok mr vague man
21:59:52 <ais523> oh, sorry, AnMaster's request
22:00:05 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway just go buy some ram
22:00:15 <ais523> ehird: what about a Cyclexa parser?
22:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, who would insertion sort be hard
22:00:37 <ehird> ais523: J isn't too hot with strings. I'm kind of looking for something quite simple and mathematical. Involving arrays, since that's what J does.
22:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't say it'd be hard.
22:00:48 <ehird> It's just not J's explicit forte.
22:01:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Arrays, matrices and mathematics.
22:01:05 <AnMaster> arrays iirc? So sorting an array?
22:01:10 <ehird> Yes. It has a sort primitive.
22:01:14 <ehird> quicksort=: (($:@(<#[) , (=#[) , $:@(>#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1<#)
22:01:43 <ais523> ehird: what about a random array shuffle?
22:01:50 <ais523> or is that a primitive too?
22:01:55 <ehird> ais523: that's not mathematical
22:01:59 <ehird> yes, you can do it easily
22:02:03 <ehird> but it involves using foreigns
22:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, any language using unbalanced brackets, square brackets, or similar. AND WHICH ISN'T AN ESOLANG, is seriously messed up
22:02:23 <ais523> AnMaster: what about unbalanced angle brackets?
22:02:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: A language using square brackets is messed up?
22:02:39 <ehird> AnMaster: that's nice. your petty concerns about what syntax you think should, familiarly, match up, are seen, considered, and disregarded for being fucking stupid
22:02:42 <pikhq> Or j ust unbalanced ones.
22:02:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, the way J does it certainly is
22:03:05 <AnMaster> but show me some one that isn't
22:03:09 <ehird> OMG!! IT USES CHARACTERS I'M NOT USED TO AS NAMES!!
22:03:13 <ehird> CALL THE POLICE!!!!!!!!!!
22:03:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Shaddup and do LU decomposition
22:03:19 <ehird> ais523: I was looking more for things like "implement CA 101"
22:03:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean <>? well since they can read as "greater than" or "less than"...
22:03:31 <ais523> ehird: in that case, do cyclic tag
22:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, you know what?
22:03:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Mathematics is "seriously messed up".
22:03:57 <ehird> (la la la, la, reductio ad-fucking-absurdum, la la la la...)
22:04:02 <AnMaster> and I always thought it looked messed up typographically
22:04:04 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving").
22:04:08 <AnMaster> I think I mentioned it before in this channel
22:04:15 -!- jix has joined.
22:04:30 <ehird> AnMaster: you came here 2007, why would you talk in 2006
22:04:30 <AnMaster> so I fail to see "reductio ad-fucking-absurdum" here
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it wasn't late 2006?
22:04:58 <ais523> ehird: BCT is one notation for it
22:05:06 <ais523> I'm not picky about notation, but BCT would do fine
22:05:09 <ehird> AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too
22:05:15 <ehird> and if you seriously claim that, you're deluded
22:05:31 <AnMaster> I said *it's syntax* in that specific example did
22:05:33 <ehird> ais523: i've always misunderstood how the cycling works
22:05:38 <ehird> I said it is syntax
22:05:39 <AnMaster> unbalanced [] () {} look so messy
22:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, err no. "<ehird> AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too"
22:06:00 <AnMaster> word syntax isn't in that line
22:06:21 <Deewiant> Actually, he said any non-esoteric language using syntax like that "is seriously messed up"
22:06:24 <ais523> ehird: basically, imagine the program repeated an infinite number of times
22:06:30 <ais523> and parse and run that
22:06:37 <ehird> ais523: isn't the data cyclic?
22:06:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, messed up syntax wise to be specific
22:06:44 <ehird> ais523: but OK; that's easy enough
22:06:50 <ehird> ais523: just store the original program
22:07:01 <ais523> yes, that's how everyone does it
22:07:02 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately, implementing BCT involves explicit loops as far as I can tell
22:07:05 <ais523> and the data's a queue
22:07:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or someone is doing IOCCC or similar, which is an abuse of the language, but allowed in such a context
22:07:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, being messed up and having messed-up syntax sound somewhat different to me.
22:07:26 <ais523> also, I like J's whole loopless concept
22:07:37 <ais523> but it's not going to work for certain types of problems
22:07:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the syntax is usually (insert disclaimer about lisp and some other langs) pretty major part of most languages
22:07:48 <ais523> same in Mathematica, it's meant to be rare to loop there
22:07:53 <ais523> but normally you have to do anyway
22:08:13 <ehird> ais523: no, J's provably TC even without using its loop constructs
22:08:17 <AnMaster> ais523, does J have anything like map? fold?
22:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: almost certainly
22:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: map/fold is the whole damn basis of j,.
22:08:40 <ais523> ehird: agreed, but you'd end up implementing loops using the other primitives
22:09:31 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you implement a REPL in J. That would require some sort of main loop, wouldn't it?
22:10:03 <AnMaster> this could be a REPL for some other lang, so answer like "use the one built-in in J" isn't valid
22:10:09 <AnMaster> (if J has a REPL, I don't know)
22:10:13 <ehird> Look it up on Wikipedia, I don't feel like attempting to bash you out of the idiotic imperative paradigm.
22:10:22 <ehird> It would be akin to bashing my brains out. (on a wall.)
22:10:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Erlang is not purely functional, no.
22:10:40 <lament> why would you want a REPL?
22:10:47 <ehird> And I've seen your Erlang code. It is very much not functional.
22:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, but I was thinking about scheme in fact
22:10:52 <ehird> You write C, in Erlang.
22:11:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. I did in the beginning yes.
22:11:22 <AnMaster> takes time to get into the paradigm of a language.
22:11:23 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you pastebin only your really old code then?
22:11:43 <AnMaster> I don't remember when I last pastebinned erlang code here. Must have been quite a while ago
22:12:04 <ais523> Erlang's strange in that the syntax is almost identical to Prolog, but the semantics rather different
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22:16:24 <AnMaster> and didn't you intentionally typo that
22:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, plus erlang is process oriented. I admit my code probably is too single-threaded still. But I'm working on changing that too. Mostly in the ATHR branch of efunge. In in-between I haven't so far found places that would gain from multiple processes yet. A bit hard to profile the effect of that with just a single single-core CPU.
22:16:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: was a pun, duh
22:17:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, not sure what "strang" would be there
22:17:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's because you have only 3 lines of context
22:17:22 <AnMaster> they all fail to line up here btw.
22:18:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh that above. I parsed the correction and discarded the original once done. Didn't see any reason to care more about it. Forgot it already by the time you made that pun.
22:18:56 <oerjan> Garbage Collection (of the brain) Considered Harmful
22:19:03 <ais523> Deewiant: you were leaving your tags unclosed
22:19:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah. Usually works just fine.
22:19:23 <Deewiant> I thought <o> was self-closing like <br>
22:19:32 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: <br> isn't self-closing, get with XHTML
22:19:35 <Deewiant> Hmm, is the leg position just random?
22:20:08 <AnMaster> SGML sucks unless you support shorttags too
22:20:09 <Deewiant> <!-- -- Nah, it's all good -- -->
22:20:11 <ais523> ooh: this year's ICFP is June 26-29
22:20:18 <ehird> 22:19 GregorR-L: Deewiant: <br> isn't self-closing, get with XHTML 22:19 GregorR-L: SGML SUCKS
22:20:33 <ais523> starting at 13:00:16 CDT for some unknown reason
22:20:40 <AnMaster> ehird, is the HTML5 standard finished yet?
22:20:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Is it final? No. Is there a large portion that won't be changing? Yes.
22:21:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'll wait for the final standard then
22:21:13 <ehird> is there good browser interoperability for a sizable subset of this portion? Yep.
22:21:29 <ehird> AnMaster: The standard will be utterly immutable come 2012.
22:21:37 <ehird> Anyone who waits until then to use it is an idiot.
22:22:11 <GregorR-L> oerjan: You're the only person those show up for properly on XChat :P
22:22:27 <ais523> ooh, and Rakudo now implements 68% of the Perl6 spec, according to its tests
22:22:54 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
22:23:03 <ehird> AnMaster: get a non-xchat client
22:23:08 <CESSMASTER> who here would do a shot of bactine for $50
22:23:27 <ehird> CESSMASTER: lol wat
22:24:01 <ehird> err. probably not, no.
22:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't use xchat, but I still like that style
22:24:48 <AnMaster> which is why I use it in every client
22:24:52 <ehird> CESSMASTER: $sideways 8, perhaps.
22:25:04 <ehird> CESSMASTER: why; are you offering?
22:25:15 <CESSMASTER> no i was just curious if anybody would do a shot of bactine for $50
22:26:37 <GregorR-L> Is bactine something I'd know about if I was from the UK? :P
22:26:38 <oerjan> it says "topical", that means it's supposed to be outside the skin, right? or maybe just local...
22:26:52 <GregorR-L> Topical means applied to the skin, yes.
22:27:09 <GregorR-L> Unlike tropical, which means applied to sunburns. Hyuk hyuk.
22:27:36 <GregorR-L> In medicine, a topical medication is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:28:15 <ehird> yeah, i googled bactine and it appears to like, be put on cuts
22:28:25 <ehird> I assume it fucks you up if you inject it...
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22:29:38 <CESSMASTER> .13% benzoalkonium chloride, 2.5% lidocaine hydrochloride
22:30:14 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Eyes? Owww...
22:30:35 <ehird> i love how it starts with vagina and anus
22:30:37 <ehird> GOT SOMETHING ON YOUR MIND HUH
22:31:25 <GregorR-L> In medicine, lubricant is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:31:33 <GregorR-L> Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P
22:31:41 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:32:38 <oerjan> someone already did the copying it seems
22:32:50 <ehird> 22:31 GregorR-L: Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P // thank you GregorR-L for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:33:44 <oerjan> they forgot noses *sniffle*
22:33:45 <GregorR-L> The original goes from "most creepy" to "least creepy", whereas mine goes from "least creepy" to "most creepy" :P
22:34:04 <oerjan> um they are exactly the same order
22:34:18 <GregorR-L> Note the different choice of words at the BEGINNING of the sentence ;)
22:35:09 <GregorR-L> "Once you go black, you go deaf." - Family Guy
22:35:32 <ehird> once you go deaf, you never go black
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22:36:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:36:56 <CESSMASTER> http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp
22:39:13 <ehird> i love how chick tracts start out reasonable
22:39:19 <ehird> and then the reasonable characters all go to hell
22:39:42 <pikhq> If I didn't know better, I'd say it was parody.
22:42:44 <pikhq> ... You're in Boston?
22:42:57 <pikhq> Should've hunted you down when I was there last summer.
22:44:21 <ehird> ... but CESSMASTER only arrived hear like a few days ago.
22:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, about a week soon I think?
22:45:14 <pikhq> He's *not* someone who has randomly changed nicks.
22:45:46 <CESSMASTER> but i do like to change nicks for the hell of it
22:46:09 <pikhq> But man, that Chick Tract
22:46:09 <pikhq> How very well it manages to fuck with history.
22:46:57 <pikhq> Oh, and Biblical text -- but most wackjobs of the Christian sort manage to do that pretty stunningly.
22:47:17 <AnMaster> hm "chick tract" seems to be some right wing fundamentalist comic if I understood it right from glancing at the link and checking wikipedia?
22:47:31 <ehird> Oh, AnMaster. Perpetually clueless, perpetually without context.
22:47:44 <ehird> When will my senses be numbed to your every word; let it be soon.
22:48:10 <AnMaster> ehird, as in Christian fundamentalist...
22:48:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Right wing Christian fundamentalist. There's more fundamentalists than just Christians.
22:49:05 <pikhq> And they're all about as sensible.
22:49:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is why I clarified I didn't mean muslim fundamentalist for example
22:49:28 <ehird> But it looked like r.
22:49:52 -!- augur has joined.
22:50:28 <ehird> upyr presumably speaks that language
22:50:35 <ehird> so his keyboard lets him type it easily
22:50:46 <ehird> sorry for what? :)
22:51:14 * pikhq can't read more of that track; so bad.
22:51:30 <CESSMASTER> i love how it combines all of the bible belt fears
22:52:18 <pikhq> Roman Catholic conspiracy... *Right*.
22:53:01 <pikhq> Why is it that these people manage to look less reasonable than an organisation thnat is known for denying a heliocentric model of the solar system?
22:56:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's between the house and the world, the ping only reaches nvg which is outside
22:56:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Your packets take less time than mine.
22:56:47 <pikhq> Mine go to space and back.
22:57:14 <ehird> pikhq: Do you want to mention your satellite internet once more?
22:57:29 <pikhq> ehird: SATELLITE BEATS DIALUP LAWLZ
22:58:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: you never returned my ping
22:59:34 <oerjan> sending but not responding is a swattable offense -----###
22:59:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, ever been at the receiving end of what might be called "DDoCtP"?
23:00:14 <AnMaster> ("distributed denial of connection through ping", yes I just made it up)
23:00:30 <pikhq> Anmaster is using RawIRC.
23:00:34 <oerjan> no, unless that's why my net is slow
23:01:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, basically, lots of clients connect and all ping you as fast as possible, you end up either flooding yourself off, if client sucks, or with a long send queue if the client does proper rate limiting.
23:01:26 <AnMaster> thus I simply ignore CTCP from *!*@*
23:01:54 <ais523> AnMaster: also, your SendQ would overflow anyway whether you ignored the CTCPs or not
23:01:59 <ais523> if enough people tried to send to you at once
23:02:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I meant send queue on client side
23:02:25 <ais523> AnMaster: the server one would flood
23:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, if enough, but that tends to be rather hard
23:03:28 <AnMaster> ais523, since I have successfully seen on a test net, (with normal settings for SendQ size) over 20000 clients split from a channel
23:03:53 <ais523> Freenode got quite a way through the channels list when I accidentally sent it WHO without parameters once
23:03:54 <AnMaster> so I think flooding that one would require oper abilities at least
23:04:06 <ehird> I think ignoring pings is against the ctcp spec
23:04:16 <ais523> ehird: but this is IRC we're talking about
23:04:16 <AnMaster> ais523, who isn't channel list
23:04:23 <AnMaster> also yes that is a case where it can flood off
23:04:26 <ehird> ais523: ahem— we're talking to AnMaster
23:04:29 <ehird> ais523: specifications.
23:04:30 <ais523> the spec lets you embed CTCPs in the middle of lines
23:04:30 <AnMaster> ehird, ctcp isn't an official spec
23:04:33 <ais523> nobody implements that
23:04:39 <ehird> i'm sure AnMaster patched it in
23:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: and who does who for all channels in alphabetical order
23:04:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes some do... and I was not involved
23:04:51 <ais523> if you don't give args
23:04:59 <ais523> it was about halfway through a, IIRC
23:05:06 <AnMaster> ais523, true, which aren't +s, and where the user haven't set themselves as non-visible
23:06:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
23:09:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:13:30 <nescience> except i think some perl irc module
23:19:20 <ehird> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
23:19:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:20:10 <ehird> Not the result I wanted.
23:20:29 * ehird feeds not the troll.
23:20:38 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:22:59 * ehird reasons. "#:2 16$i.16" is a 3d-array, where both Zs are the same, X is going along the bit pattern, and Y goes down the list of numbers.
23:23:09 <ehird> now I need to operate on each (X,Y) from both Zs.
23:23:55 -!- jix has joined.
23:24:08 <ehird> the question is how.
23:25:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:27:04 <ehird> ok, folding over works
23:40:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:48:49 <ehird> That's the sound of a new language forming.
23:49:00 <oerjan> average sized language
23:49:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, possibly, or slightly smaller
23:49:49 <AnMaster> ehird, *blink*? I was joking too
23:50:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you got the meme reference
23:50:54 <AnMaster> ehird, "hurf druf"? then no. But I know "BAM" in comics. Oh and I also seen references in some comics saying "to be a big explosion the text needs to be at least this big" and similiar
23:51:04 <AnMaster> but possibly there is some silly 4chan meme too
23:51:12 <ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH
23:51:13 <AnMaster> which I don't really care about
23:51:20 <ehird> (A tornado envelops AnMaster's house.)
23:51:25 <ehird> (He dies. All is peaceful. ~fin~)
23:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't care about 4chan memes really
23:51:44 <ehird> Every meme is from 4chan, clearly.
23:51:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but quite a few of the silly ones are
23:51:57 <ehird> If by "4chan", you mean "the Internet".
23:52:00 <oerjan> everything is from 4chan
23:52:17 <ehird> 4chan is from 4chan
23:52:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, if so, it is recursive
23:53:08 <ehird> IF YOU'RE NOT GREEN,
23:53:09 <ehird> TURN INTO A WALRUS.
23:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse.
23:54:06 <ehird> AnMaster: getting pissy because he misses a reference since 2007.
23:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? I'm not the pissy one.
23:55:00 <ehird> I never once said anything that was not calm and uncaring. "23:53 AnMaster: ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse." is very clearly annoyed.
23:55:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I was trying to inform you, since you didn't seem aware
23:55:46 <AnMaster> "<ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH" is clearly annoyed.
23:56:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ...how is that annoyed?
23:56:34 <ehird> oerjan: Let's talk about the decay of rationality, reason and logic in favour of emotionalism, pissiness and assertions.