00:00:20 <ehird> augur: declarative behavioural languages, maybe array languages if you don't count them as functional
00:00:23 <ehird> perhaps some other fringe stuff
00:00:28 <ehird> oh, and things like VHDL
00:00:31 <ehird> call that the crackhead category
00:00:47 <pikhq> ehird: You failed to mention some DSLs.
00:00:56 <ehird> pikhq: they fall into a subset
00:00:59 * ais523 finally finishes the Rubicon bubble-sort that coppro started
00:01:01 <ehird> sql is array sorta
00:01:08 <ehird> augur: behavioural is "when a, b"
00:01:16 <ehird> if the b part is imperative — it often is — not declarative
00:01:19 <augur> event driven, you mean?
00:01:21 <ehird> if it's not, declarative
00:01:26 <ehird> augur: yes, pretty much
00:01:30 <ehird> vhdl fits under that, too
00:01:51 <pikhq> ehird: That's pretty interesting.
00:02:12 <ehird> FunctorSal: use the /nick, luke
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00:25:45 <ehird> ais523: microsoft somehow just made one of their products majorly worse
00:25:50 <ehird> instead of just chipping at their good parts
00:26:20 <ehird> ais523: outlook 2010 will use microsoft word for composing and rendering html emails
00:26:25 <ehird> thus giving this "upgrade": http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3637814200_a2aa59bc89_o.jpg
00:26:39 <ehird> oh, and inflicting a new generation of charts, graphs and other horribilities right in the toolbar
00:26:46 <ehird> so that people use them more and everyone else suffers more.
00:26:56 <ais523> wait, what if Word isn't installed?
00:27:10 <ehird> ais523: outlook is part of office
00:28:21 <ehird> even if they introduced word as the editor
00:28:25 <ehird> they could at least use IE's rendering engine
00:28:43 <ais523> outlook is hated by everyone on the Internet who doesn't use it, anyway
00:28:50 <ais523> have you seen how bad Outlook-composed emails are?
00:28:59 <ais523> but then, Word's HTML is worse
00:29:21 <ais523> fun fact: when OpenOffice.org and Word convert the same Word document to HTML, OOo's output renders better in IE
00:30:19 * ehird sees the orangered envelope on less wrong, jumps for a second
00:30:27 <ehird> That's new. Then again, it's only been a day.
00:31:28 <pikhq> *Word* for composing emails?
00:32:37 <ais523> ooh, put a macro virus in one
00:32:42 <pikhq> I mean, truly, positively, absolutely retarded.
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00:41:59 <ais523> still, it could be worse; they could be using Outlook as Word's rendering engine
00:56:47 <ehird> ais523: grok law would have a field day with this one:
00:56:52 <ehird> [[Having said that, I find the Plug-In problem particularly interesting. Gnu.org says: “If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means the plug-ins must be released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be
00:56:55 <ehird> followed when those plug-ins are distributed.”
00:56:57 <ehird> However, what happens if, say, a commercial application has a plug-in architecture like the one described above, and that commercial app is cloned by a GPL-covered project. The GPL project would try to replicate the commercial app’s Plug-In API in order to allow the plug-ins for the commercial app to run inside the GPL’d app. Would that mean that the mere existence of this clone app would make closed-source plug-ins for the commercial app illegal?]]
00:57:02 <ehird> i hope it's true, that'd be brilliant
01:00:09 <ais523> it isn't, that's the libreadline argument
01:00:27 <ais523> which nobody but RMS believes, because in the same situation the existence of the closed-source program would make open-source plugins for the open-source app illegal
01:00:33 <ehird> ais523: rms says his lawyers think the libreadline argument is true
01:00:47 <ehird> the discordian in me hopes they're right
01:00:47 <ais523> ehird: yes, but is he really going to hire lawyers who don't?
01:01:03 <ehird> i'd start an outlawing spree
01:01:43 <ais523> bear in mind that BSD's lawyers disagree with the libreadline argument
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01:06:29 <pikhq> It's at least complete bullshit with a commercial app for which a GPL-covered project has the same plugin API.
01:07:40 <ehird> heh thought that was a cocoa class for a second
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01:23:56 <ehird> FunctorSalad_: you should change your name to Sal "Functor" Lastname
01:29:24 <ehird> FunctorSalad_: because you're FunctorSal
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01:31:29 <FunctorSalad_> (actually, I just needed another alternative nick because of my frequent connection losses)
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02:08:40 <ehird> pikhq: "In fact, all data items are treated as infinite lists of length 1. Other infinite lists may be longer."
02:09:12 <pikhq> ehird: Where's that a quote from?
02:09:21 <ehird> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haskell, which is otherwise a really shit article.
02:11:12 <pikhq> The "Haskell" game box there is decent. Otherwise.
02:52:42 <olsner> well, it's *meant* to be a really shit article
02:53:43 <pikhq> olsner: No, we mean it's not funny.
02:54:02 <pikhq> "Shit" in the context of Uncyclopedia means incoherent rambling instead of humor.
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03:41:39 <Zuu> "PERL is based on the write-only programming paradigm. Since it cannot be read, the costs associated with peer reviews, coding standards, and other so-called industry best-practices are completely eliminated. This is the primary reason that Amazon.com can charge so little for its goods and services."
03:42:17 <ais523> <ieaddons> An error occured while that page was being displayed. Someone is looking into this problem. Thanks for your patience.
03:42:33 <ais523> I decided to click the button to install an IE addon, while in Firefox for Linux, with NoScript turned on
03:42:37 <ais523> and that was the result I got
03:43:18 <Zuu> Not like you gave it much to work with :P
03:43:32 <ais523> I also like the "that page" in the error message
03:44:14 <ais523> as for Perl, it isn't that bad
03:44:17 <ais523> it can be, but it usually isn't
03:44:27 <ais523> one of the projects I'm working on atm is pretty maintainable Perl
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04:25:14 <pikhq> Maintainable Perl?
04:25:27 <pikhq> You should submit it to the International Unobfuscated Perl Code Contest.
04:26:31 <augur> international unobfuscated perl code contest
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09:51:09 -!- asiekierka has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | UUDDLRLRBASTART.
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13:33:16 -!- Deewiant has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA[start].
13:34:27 <ais523> someone find a start button in Unicode
13:38:02 <Deewiant> Searching for neither "start" nor "begin" gave anything useful
13:45:12 * ais523 wonders why there'd be a requirement for the topic to contain the Konami Code
14:01:51 <Deewiant> It evidently went from your 'the phrase "esoteric programming languages"' to 'the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage"' and now to 'the Konami Code'
14:05:19 <Deewiant> Heh, http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8y4sl/odd_cats_eye_technologies_haskell_projects/
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16:07:07 <pikhq> Huh. Getnoo supports Windows.
16:11:52 <fizzie> You should still, using the U+20e3 combining enclosing keycap, say A⃣ and B⃣.
16:12:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Not supported here.
16:13:15 <fizzie> Well, there's also the circled Ⓐ and Ⓑ but those don't look very buttony.
16:13:24 <ais523> fizzie: those are used in manuals
16:13:40 <ais523> and on many controllers, those buttons are circular
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16:36:04 <ehirdiphone> Also, "International Unobfuscated Perl Contest" made me laugh.
16:38:18 <ehirdiphone> Apparently part of my weird economy-of-expression tendencies have remained even though I'm not having any trouble typing fast and accurately on the iPhone now for some strange reason.
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17:48:22 <ais523> you joining and leaving because the channel was dead
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17:49:23 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, the iPhone doesn't multitask.
17:49:42 <ehirdiphone> Not gonna sit here staring at the screen like a doofus :)
17:49:54 <asiekierka> If I ever make a game on a retro console
17:50:07 <asiekierka> Pressing the Konami Code enters you ino an esolang interpreter
17:53:16 <ehirdiphone> It'd be nice if you could hold down the home button and tap "Background", then open a Switcher app and get a list of backgrounded windows w/ screenshots. Doing multitasking is hard from a mobile UI perspective.
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17:55:41 <ehirdiphone> …it wouldn't stop mistakes like that, though.
17:56:50 <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
17:57:20 <ehirdiphone> Then holding down home in a suspending app would give you a Quit button.
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19:07:39 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
19:08:06 <oerjan> if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow?
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21:04:50 <unikat> !bfjoust dumb +++++++++[>-]
21:05:03 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumb: 0.0
21:08:01 <unikat> !bfjoust dumc +>-->->->-->->[[-]-]
21:08:11 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumc: 0.0
21:09:03 <oerjan> i think that one never moves far enough to reach the opponent flag
21:11:19 <unikat> yes you're right. i'm still adopting to brainfuck and may be doing some stupid stuff; hope it's okay to clutter the logs with my all-zero scored entries.
21:11:35 <unikat> !bfjoust dumd +>-->->->-->->[>[-]-]
21:11:44 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumd: 0.0
21:12:23 <oerjan> oh and that loop is unlikely to run, because it's probably 0 at the beginning
21:13:39 <oerjan> it's fine to test, it's not like there's a conversation going on anyway
21:14:22 <oerjan> it was much more noisy here when bfjoust was added to EgoBot in the first place :)
21:15:13 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e >-(>[-[-[++++]]>]<-)*35
21:15:21 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 0.0
21:15:48 <unikat> okay, I think i am going to re-read the rules...
21:16:54 <oerjan> i understand the competition may be rather fierce these days
21:17:11 <oerjan> so it may be hard to get points even with a working program
21:18:27 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e ++++++(>)*10([-]>)*20
21:18:33 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.8
21:22:50 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10([-]>)*20
21:22:56 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 4.0
21:24:58 <Deewiant> Linking to the high scores might be in order, but I forget the URL
21:25:05 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10 ( []> )*20
21:25:14 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.5
21:25:22 <unikat> well i have the list open in a browser window, it's at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
21:26:22 <unikat> so far. good night to all
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23:09:00 <ehird> 18:07 oerjan: <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
23:09:00 <ehird> 18:08 oerjan: if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow?
23:09:03 <ehird> I'm talking about implementing it in the OS. The iPhone just uses stripped-down OS X and has processes; it's just that apps are quit when you defocus them.
23:17:20 <pikhq> Because Apple is lame.
23:25:18 <ehird> pikhq: Please come back when you've implemented a simple-enough-to-not-need-thinking, elegant way of implementing multitasking on a mobile touchscreen with extremely low processing power and memory.
23:25:25 <ehird> Oh, and this on a UNIX based system.
23:26:01 <pikhq> 400 MHz is extremely low processing power now?
23:26:21 <ehird> pikhq: For a full UNIX/OS X system, absolutely.
23:26:34 <ehird> pikhq: They DID bring out the expensive iPhone 3G S just to bunk it up to 600Mhz...
23:26:50 <pikhq> ... Faster than any UNIX system until about the mid-90s is extremely low?
23:27:01 <ehird> Modern OS X system, dude.
23:27:20 <Deewiant> I was on 400 MHz until 2001 or something
23:27:22 <ehird> Anyway, fact is that (a) UI and (b) processes suckin' up mah extremely limited kilobytes of RAM are gonna kill it.
23:27:39 <ehird> Deewiant: 400mhz until 2001? That's...not common
23:27:48 <pikhq> Deewiant: *Any* system. I think Sun started shipping systems of that speed in like 95...
23:28:00 <ehird> Can we get back to the main point
23:28:07 <ehird> It's a modern OS X system
23:28:10 <Deewiant> pikhq: Yeah, ok, I was thinking consumer x86.
23:28:13 <ehird> Something with beefy requirements.
23:28:23 <ehird> Also, megahertz myth, man.
23:28:40 <Deewiant> I went from a 400 MHz Pentium-something to a 1200 MHz Duron; wikipedia says they came out in August 2001
23:28:48 <pikhq> The original has 128MB RAM, the GS has 256MB RAM...
23:28:51 <Deewiant> And I don't think it was new at the time
23:28:56 <Deewiant> So it was probably 2002 or something
23:29:12 <ehird> pikhq: Mixed up kilo/mega
23:29:20 <ehird> megabytes is basically kilobytes compared to desktop ram sizes.
23:29:26 <Deewiant> 400MHz / 128MB ran Windows XP just fine
23:29:37 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, even if you've got the processing power you still haven't invented an intuitive UI.
23:30:18 <pikhq> ehird: Small dock at the bottom for running tasks. BAM.
23:30:37 <pikhq> Takes up screen estate, unfortunately, but that's rather intuitive, at least.
23:30:46 <ehird> One vague line that gives no details whatsoever. Gee, I'm gonna skip the user tests and go straight to production.
23:31:18 <ehird> omg, another vague, non-clarifying line. Steve, this is revolutionary.
23:31:32 <pikhq> ... Saying "exactly what OS X has" is vague?
23:32:07 <ehird> pikhq: so when you hit an application icon — ANY one, even ones that don't need suspending — it'll appear in the dock at tiny size and pop up a window?
23:32:13 <ehird> And then take up screen real estate ALL THE TIME?
23:32:23 <ehird> And every process will be multitasked taking up valuable resources?
23:32:27 <ehird> Your idea is shit.
23:32:51 <pikhq> ehird: 256MB and 600MHz isn't exactly 'scarce resources'.
23:33:21 <ehird> Not many people have 3G Ss, and dude, we're not running microöptimized software on a bare-bones OS.
23:33:35 <ehird> The typical iPhone usecase, also, involves a lot of switching around applications that DON'T NEED SUSPENDING.
23:33:41 <ehird> It's the exception, not the rule, by far.
23:34:26 <pikhq> ehird hasn't the foggiest clue what a system with those specs can do.
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23:35:08 <ehird> But you're being a total idiot with your simply false assumptions of how the iPhone's OS works, how applications are written for it, its performance characteristics and the typical usecase.
23:35:20 <ehird> So I'm pretty much gonna ignore your "Apple are stupid I'm so much better at inventing my one-line multitasking system" thing.
23:35:49 <pikhq> Multitasking is trivial, ehird.
23:37:24 <pikhq> Hell, another way to do it: send programs a message indicating that they're being switched out. The program can choose to close. Have a screen in the program menu for running apps.
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23:57:06 <fizzie> FWIW, I too would dislike the "thou shalt only have one third-party program running at a time" rule, and would rather take some sort of not-perfect multitasking over not-there-at-all simplicity. But I guess it's not the Apply way to do things.
23:57:45 <ehird> This is the company that took three OS releases to make sure copy and pasting was absolutely flawless.
23:57:54 <ehird> Yeah; ugly-but-works is very much not the Apple way.
23:58:25 <fizzie> And I can think of exactly those two scenarios everyone seems to mention; a GPS track-where-you-were application and the IRC client. So I guess they'd be reasonable common.
23:58:55 <ehird> Two. Out of thousands of apps.
23:59:00 <ehird> Yes, very common...
23:59:11 <ehird> fizzie: btw, most irc clients have a built-in safari window so you don't lose IRC when clicking links
23:59:21 <ehird> which pretty much covers most "omg i focused away" things
23:59:30 <ehird> i'd love multitasking but it's not a simple problem
23:59:33 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very elegant either, to me. Of course no-one asks me.