00:00:10 hehe 00:00:20 augur: declarative behavioural languages, maybe array languages if you don't count them as functional 00:00:23 perhaps some other fringe stuff 00:00:28 oh, and things like VHDL 00:00:31 call that the crackhead category 00:00:39 behavioral = ?? 00:00:47 ehird: You failed to mention some DSLs. 00:00:52 Functional + Logic + Mushrooms = ? 00:00:55 SQL, for example. 00:00:56 pikhq: they fall into a subset 00:00:59 * ais523 finally finishes the Rubicon bubble-sort that coppro started 00:01:01 sql is array sorta 00:01:08 augur: behavioural is "when a, b" 00:01:14 ?? 00:01:16 if the b part is imperative — it often is — not declarative 00:01:19 event driven, you mean? 00:01:21 if it's not, declarative 00:01:26 augur: yes, pretty much 00:01:28 /reactive? 00:01:29 ok. 00:01:30 vhdl fits under that, too 00:01:32 FunctorSalvatore 00:01:51 Salad actually. 00:01:51 ehird: That's pretty interesting. 00:02:03 yes, I'm losing letters :-( 00:02:12 FunctorSal: use the /nick, luke 00:02:26 what if it backfires? 00:02:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good nick, er night"). 00:02:47 you'll die 00:03:31 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 00:20:20 -!- Associat0r has quit ("#proglangdesign #ltu ##concurrency"). 00:21:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:25:45 ais523: microsoft somehow just made one of their products majorly worse 00:25:50 instead of just chipping at their good parts 00:25:53 which one? 00:26:20 ais523: outlook 2010 will use microsoft word for composing and rendering html emails 00:26:25 thus giving this "upgrade": http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3637814200_a2aa59bc89_o.jpg 00:26:39 oh, and inflicting a new generation of charts, graphs and other horribilities right in the toolbar 00:26:46 so that people use them more and everyone else suffers more. 00:26:56 wait, what if Word isn't installed? 00:27:10 ais523: outlook is part of office 00:28:21 even if they introduced word as the editor 00:28:25 they could at least use IE's rendering engine 00:28:43 outlook is hated by everyone on the Internet who doesn't use it, anyway 00:28:50 have you seen how bad Outlook-composed emails are? 00:28:58 yep 00:28:59 but then, Word's HTML is worse 00:29:21 fun fact: when OpenOffice.org and Word convert the same Word document to HTML, OOo's output renders better in IE 00:30:19 * ehird sees the orangered envelope on less wrong, jumps for a second 00:30:27 That's new. Then again, it's only been a day. 00:31:28 *Word* for composing emails? 00:31:44 AND RENDERING? 00:32:02 Yes. 00:32:33 That is retarded. 00:32:37 ooh, put a macro virus in one 00:32:42 I mean, truly, positively, absolutely retarded. 00:34:26 -!- phearle has quit. 00:41:59 still, it could be worse; they could be using Outlook as Word's rendering engine 00:56:47 ais523: grok law would have a field day with this one: 00:56:52 [[Having said that, I find the Plug-In problem particularly interesting. Gnu.org says: “If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means the plug-ins must be released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be 00:56:55 followed when those plug-ins are distributed.” 00:56:57 However, what happens if, say, a commercial application has a plug-in architecture like the one described above, and that commercial app is cloned by a GPL-covered project. The GPL project would try to replicate the commercial app’s Plug-In API in order to allow the plug-ins for the commercial app to run inside the GPL’d app. Would that mean that the mere existence of this clone app would make closed-source plug-ins for the commercial app illegal?]] 00:57:02 i hope it's true, that'd be brilliant 01:00:09 it isn't, that's the libreadline argument 01:00:27 which nobody but RMS believes, because in the same situation the existence of the closed-source program would make open-source plugins for the open-source app illegal 01:00:33 ais523: rms says his lawyers think the libreadline argument is true 01:00:47 the discordian in me hopes they're right 01:00:47 ehird: yes, but is he really going to hire lawyers who don't? 01:01:03 i'd start an outlawing spree 01:01:12 ais523: very true 01:01:43 bear in mind that BSD's lawyers disagree with the libreadline argument 01:03:50 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:06:29 It's at least complete bullshit with a commercial app for which a GPL-covered project has the same plugin API. 01:06:45 See: NSplugin 01:07:40 heh thought that was a cocoa class for a second 01:14:20 -!- FunctorSalad_ has joined. 01:23:56 FunctorSalad_: you should change your name to Sal "Functor" Lastname 01:28:50 why? 01:29:24 FunctorSalad_: because you're FunctorSal 01:29:37 -!- FunctorSal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:29:41 now you're not. 01:31:06 it means "Functor salt" :) 01:31:29 (actually, I just needed another alternative nick because of my frequent connection losses) 01:43:09 -!- Associat0r has joined. 01:51:34 -!- FunctorSalad_ has quit ("medium cat is, in fact, MEDIUM."). 02:08:40 pikhq: "In fact, all data items are treated as infinite lists of length 1. Other infinite lists may be longer." 02:09:12 ehird: Where's that a quote from? 02:09:21 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haskell, which is otherwise a really shit article. 02:10:03 Ah. 02:11:12 The "Haskell" game box there is decent. Otherwise. 02:52:42 well, it's *meant* to be a really shit article 02:53:43 olsner: No, we mean it's not funny. 02:54:02 "Shit" in the context of Uncyclopedia means incoherent rambling instead of humor. 03:00:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:41:39 "PERL is based on the write-only programming paradigm. Since it cannot be read, the costs associated with peer reviews, coding standards, and other so-called industry best-practices are completely eliminated. This is the primary reason that Amazon.com can charge so little for its goods and services." 03:42:17 An error occured while that page was being displayed. Someone is looking into this problem. Thanks for your patience. 03:42:33 I decided to click the button to install an IE addon, while in Firefox for Linux, with NoScript turned on 03:42:37 and that was the result I got 03:42:57 Nice :) 03:43:18 Not like you gave it much to work with :P 03:43:32 I also like the "that page" in the error message 03:44:14 as for Perl, it isn't that bad 03:44:17 it can be, but it usually isn't 03:44:27 one of the projects I'm working on atm is pretty maintainable Perl 03:47:15 :) 03:52:40 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:16:04 -!- augur has joined. 04:25:14 Maintainable Perl? 04:25:27 You should submit it to the International Unobfuscated Perl Code Contest. 04:26:31 international unobfuscated perl code contest 04:26:31 lol 04:54:05 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:17:05 * Warrigal beeps. 05:50:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 06:22:01 -!- chuck has joined. 06:39:59 -!- Pegazus has joined. 06:40:03 -!- Pegazus has left (?). 07:18:02 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:18:08 hi 07:40:40 hi 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:26:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:29:38 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:57:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:51:09 -!- asiekierka has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | UUDDLRLRBASTART. 10:11:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:47:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:52:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:24:47 -!- AnMaster has joined. 12:15:42 -!- JoelyWoely has joined. 12:15:49 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:33:16 -!- Deewiant has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA[start]. 13:34:27 someone find a start button in Unicode 13:37:03 I tried 13:38:02 Searching for neither "start" nor "begin" gave anything useful 13:45:12 * ais523 wonders why there'd be a requirement for the topic to contain the Konami Code 14:01:51 It evidently went from your 'the phrase "esoteric programming languages"' to 'the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage"' and now to 'the Konami Code' 14:05:19 Heh, http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8y4sl/odd_cats_eye_technologies_haskell_projects/ 14:43:55 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 15:06:26 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:08:06 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success). 16:07:07 Huh. Getnoo supports Windows. 16:11:52 You should still, using the U+20e3 combining enclosing keycap, say A⃣ and B⃣. 16:12:25 fizzie: Not supported here. 16:12:32 Not invented here. 16:13:15 Well, there's also the circled Ⓐ and Ⓑ but those don't look very buttony. 16:13:24 fizzie: those are used in manuals 16:13:40 and on many controllers, those buttons are circular 16:13:56 Am I in a Super Nintendo? 16:34:51 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 16:35:09 I broke an eye and called it toroidal. 16:36:04 Also, "International Unobfuscated Perl Contest" made me laugh. 16:38:18 Apparently part of my weird economy-of-expression tendencies have remained even though I'm not having any trouble typing fast and accurately on the iPhone now for some strange reason. 16:39:19 Active place, huh. Welp, bye. 16:39:22 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 16:46:13 that was fast 16:50:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:35:17 -!- darthnuri has joined. 17:39:24 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 17:44:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:47:45 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 17:48:08 ais523: What was fast? 17:48:22 you joining and leaving because the channel was dead 17:49:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:49:23 ais523: Well, the iPhone doesn't multitask. 17:49:42 Not gonna sit here staring at the screen like a doofus :) 17:49:54 If I ever make a game on a retro console 17:49:58 it will have 1 requirement: 17:50:07 Pressing the Konami Code enters you ino an esolang interpreter 17:50:17 That's nice asiekierka. 17:50:44 s/ $// 17:53:16 It'd be nice if you could hold down the home button and tap "Background", then open a Switcher app and get a list of backgrounded windows w/ screenshots. Doing multitasking is hard from a mobile UI perspective. 17:54:59 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"). 17:55:17 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 17:55:41 …it wouldn't stop mistakes like that, though. 17:56:50 Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it. 17:57:20 Then holding down home in a suspending app would give you a Quit button. 17:58:51 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 17:59:06 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 17:59:08 Goddamn. 17:59:21 -!- JoelyWoely has changed nick to CESSMASTER. 18:01:01 ais523: that enough waiting for you? :P 18:01:20 heh 18:01:32 Buh-bye. 18:01:33 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 18:15:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:25:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:54:59 -!- asiekiekra has joined. 18:55:30 -!- asiekiekra has quit (Client Quit). 18:58:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:07:39 Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it. 19:08:06 if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow? 19:13:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:35:03 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit ("Page closed"). 20:08:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:37:14 -!- tombom has joined. 21:04:02 -!- unikat has joined. 21:04:50 !bfjoust dumb +++++++++[>-] 21:05:03 Score for unikat_dumb: 0.0 21:06:47 +(>-)*9(>[-].-)*21 21:08:01 !bfjoust dumc +>-->->->-->->[[-]-] 21:08:11 Score for unikat_dumc: 0.0 21:09:03 i think that one never moves far enough to reach the opponent flag 21:11:19 yes you're right. i'm still adopting to brainfuck and may be doing some stupid stuff; hope it's okay to clutter the logs with my all-zero scored entries. 21:11:35 !bfjoust dumd +>-->->->-->->[>[-]-] 21:11:44 Score for unikat_dumd: 0.0 21:12:23 oh and that loop is unlikely to run, because it's probably 0 at the beginning 21:13:39 it's fine to test, it's not like there's a conversation going on anyway 21:14:22 it was much more noisy here when bfjoust was added to EgoBot in the first place :) 21:15:13 !bfjoust dum_e >-(>[-[-[++++]]>]<-)*35 21:15:21 Score for unikat_dum_e: 0.0 21:15:48 okay, I think i am going to re-read the rules... 21:16:54 i understand the competition may be rather fierce these days 21:17:11 so it may be hard to get points even with a working program 21:18:27 !bfjoust dum_e ++++++(>)*10([-]>)*20 21:18:33 Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.8 21:18:40 ah 21:18:40 yeah 21:22:50 !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10([-]>)*20 21:22:56 Score for unikat_dum_e: 4.0 21:24:58 Linking to the high scores might be in order, but I forget the URL 21:25:05 !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10 ( []> )*20 21:25:14 Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.5 21:25:22 well i have the list open in a browser window, it's at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 21:26:22 so far. good night to all 21:26:23 Yeah, that's it. 21:26:25 -!- unikat has quit ("Leaving"). 22:03:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:04:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 22:04:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:54:56 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:09:00 18:07 oerjan: Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it. 23:09:00 18:08 oerjan: if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow? 23:09:03 I'm talking about implementing it in the OS. The iPhone just uses stripped-down OS X and has processes; it's just that apps are quit when you defocus them. 23:09:29 mhm 23:17:20 Because Apple is lame. 23:25:18 pikhq: Please come back when you've implemented a simple-enough-to-not-need-thinking, elegant way of implementing multitasking on a mobile touchscreen with extremely low processing power and memory. 23:25:25 Oh, and this on a UNIX based system. 23:25:27 have fun 23:26:01 400 MHz is extremely low processing power now? 23:26:21 pikhq: For a full UNIX/OS X system, absolutely. 23:26:34 pikhq: They DID bring out the expensive iPhone 3G S just to bunk it up to 600Mhz... 23:26:50 ... Faster than any UNIX system until about the mid-90s is extremely low? 23:27:01 Modern OS X system, dude. 23:27:05 Late 90s 23:27:20 I was on 400 MHz until 2001 or something 23:27:22 Anyway, fact is that (a) UI and (b) processes suckin' up mah extremely limited kilobytes of RAM are gonna kill it. 23:27:30 KILOBYTES. 23:27:39 Deewiant: 400mhz until 2001? That's...not common 23:27:48 Deewiant: *Any* system. I think Sun started shipping systems of that speed in like 95... 23:28:00 Can we get back to the main point 23:28:07 It's a modern OS X system 23:28:10 pikhq: Yeah, ok, I was thinking consumer x86. 23:28:13 Something with beefy requirements. 23:28:23 Also, megahertz myth, man. 23:28:40 I went from a 400 MHz Pentium-something to a 1200 MHz Duron; wikipedia says they came out in August 2001 23:28:43 the myth, it hertz 23:28:48 The original has 128MB RAM, the GS has 256MB RAM... 23:28:51 And I don't think it was new at the time 23:28:56 So it was probably 2002 or something 23:29:12 pikhq: Mixed up kilo/mega 23:29:20 megabytes is basically kilobytes compared to desktop ram sizes. 23:29:26 400MHz / 128MB ran Windows XP just fine 23:29:37 pikhq: Anyway, even if you've got the processing power you still haven't invented an intuitive UI. 23:30:18 ehird: Small dock at the bottom for running tasks. BAM. 23:30:37 Takes up screen estate, unfortunately, but that's rather intuitive, at least. 23:30:46 One vague line that gives no details whatsoever. Gee, I'm gonna skip the user tests and go straight to production. 23:30:51 Hey Jobs! 23:30:59 OS X dock. 23:31:18 omg, another vague, non-clarifying line. Steve, this is revolutionary. 23:31:32 ... Saying "exactly what OS X has" is vague? 23:32:07 pikhq: so when you hit an application icon — ANY one, even ones that don't need suspending — it'll appear in the dock at tiny size and pop up a window? 23:32:13 And then take up screen real estate ALL THE TIME? 23:32:23 And every process will be multitasked taking up valuable resources? 23:32:27 Your idea is shit. 23:32:51 ehird: 256MB and 600MHz isn't exactly 'scarce resources'. 23:33:21 Not many people have 3G Ss, and dude, we're not running microöptimized software on a bare-bones OS. 23:33:35 The typical iPhone usecase, also, involves a lot of switching around applications that DON'T NEED SUSPENDING. 23:33:41 It's the exception, not the rule, by far. 23:34:26 ehird hasn't the foggiest clue what a system with those specs can do. 23:34:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:34:35 I am well aware. 23:35:08 But you're being a total idiot with your simply false assumptions of how the iPhone's OS works, how applications are written for it, its performance characteristics and the typical usecase. 23:35:20 So I'm pretty much gonna ignore your "Apple are stupid I'm so much better at inventing my one-line multitasking system" thing. 23:35:49 Multitasking is trivial, ehird. 23:37:24 Hell, another way to do it: send programs a message indicating that they're being switched out. The program can choose to close. Have a screen in the program menu for running apps. 23:48:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:57:06 FWIW, I too would dislike the "thou shalt only have one third-party program running at a time" rule, and would rather take some sort of not-perfect multitasking over not-there-at-all simplicity. But I guess it's not the Apply way to do things. 23:57:45 This is the company that took three OS releases to make sure copy and pasting was absolutely flawless. 23:57:54 Yeah; ugly-but-works is very much not the Apple way. 23:58:25 And I can think of exactly those two scenarios everyone seems to mention; a GPS track-where-you-were application and the IRC client. So I guess they'd be reasonable common. 23:58:55 Two. Out of thousands of apps. 23:59:00 Yes, very common... 23:59:11 fizzie: btw, most irc clients have a built-in safari window so you don't lose IRC when clicking links 23:59:21 which pretty much covers most "omg i focused away" things 23:59:30 i'd love multitasking but it's not a simple problem 23:59:33 That doesn't sound very elegant either, to me. Of course no-one asks me. 23:59:38 It's not