00:01:17 ehird and hows effect you're work 00:01:35 I know I'm a piece of work, but the Hows effect? 00:01:37 It's a useful model! 00:01:43 sorry for my english it not very well 00:01:48 ;-) 00:02:06 Nowicjusz: ever heard of Brainfuck? 00:03:40 ehird what hi hi 00:03:51 Okiedokie. 00:04:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck <-- Concludes it 00:04:35 Nowicjusz: Czy rozumiesz to? 00:04:57 tak 00:05:33 Nowicjusz: Hey, I guess Google Translate jest przydatny dla czegoś. Jakkolwiek, ten kanał jest dziwny komputer języków programowania. 00:05:37 * FireFly is too lazy to google translate 00:05:48 Kanal, is that channel? ;o 00:06:11 `translateto pl Does this thing work? 00:06:12 Czy to dziaa? 00:06:23 Nice ³ there 00:06:28 HackEgo: You have the Unicode support of a horse. 00:06:39 `translatefrom pl kanal 00:06:39 yes translate is goog 00:06:39 No output. 00:06:41 good 00:06:42 :< 00:07:17 `translateto pl A man, a plan, a canal: Panama! 00:07:17 Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza. 00:07:18 Czowiek, plan, kanau: Panama! 00:07:20 `translate kanal 00:07:21 channel 00:07:29 translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza. 00:07:31 `translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza. 00:07:32 Ah 00:07:32 Bravo. Now, enough so that all rozmawia ... using this interpreter. 00:07:36 ... 00:07:40 "Bravo. Now, enough for everyone to talk with an interpreter. " 00:07:58 GregorR: Będzie ładniejszy z podobnych, mniej Unicode tardness. 00:08:00 I wish I knew why the Unicode is borkleborked, but the server is honestly not sending me valid UTF-8. 00:08:20 I wouldn't have thought that the word for "channel" would be the same in polish and swedish 00:08:29 GregorR: Google isn't necessarily in UTF-8. 00:08:39 FireFly: Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia! 00:08:45 ehird: Super. But I have no idea what it IS in, nor how to convince to BE in UTF-8. 00:08:55 GregorR: http://chardet.feedparser.org/ 00:09:01 `translate Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia! 00:09:02 Swedish is actually> of Polish ... In disguise! 00:09:03 -!- augur has joined. 00:09:22 ehird sorry for the delay 00:09:24 we had a power outage 00:09:26 [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' [vP [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP [CP C [TP [DP ] [T to] [vP [v' [v [V say] v] [VP [CP [C that] [TP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [DP ]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [DP D [NP INDEF [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [CP C 00:09:31 [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [DP ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 00:09:40 yow 00:09:43 that's some ugly lisp 00:09:44 ehird: Hmmm ... so now how do I fix it :P 00:09:53 That concludes esolangs, by the way ^ 00:09:56 GregorR: Well, what character encoding did it tell you? 00:10:01 Or, how esolangs could look 00:10:15 Translators daje mi poczucie znajomości języka. 00:10:21 http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/ 00:10:28 use that to draw the tree, ehird. 00:10:52 augur: I'm surprised it is even syntactically meaningful 00:10:58 It ends with an... unconsumed argument. 00:11:08 oerjan: That's not Lisp. That's an English parse tree. 00:11:15 er, there should be a [T' between [DP ] and [T to] 00:11:19 It does look mighty sexp-esque, though. 00:11:27 and an extra ] at the end 00:11:33 pikhq: Whooshy whoosh whooshy 00:11:37 ehird: unconsumed argument? 00:11:45 augur: Like, "The." 00:11:47 You need something after. 00:11:50 "I hit it because it" 00:11:57 what 00:12:04 -!- ehird has set topic: A odrobina inteligencji będzie założyć! Jeśli jesteś w samochodzie stanowiska kolei A. Proszę inaczej kolei do B. Jeśli C, AB 2 1. Dziękujemy za Twój stronie. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:12:06 augur: dunno. 00:13:02 the relative clauses are actually probably wrong. they should be attached to the DP nodes 00:13:04 let me fix that 00:13:08 BLEH 00:13:11 its late for me see you soon ehird 00:13:12 ehird: It just told me UTF-8 >_< 00:13:35 GregorR: Did you try it on a page with actual unicode chars? 00:13:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:13:39 As in, translating to, say, Polish. 00:13:44 Otherwise it'll just see ASCII and say UTF-8. 00:13:53 I used this: 00:13:55 ... Only 1/2 of Americans are aware that Neil Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon. 00:13:57 `translateto ko Hello, world! 00:13:58 ȳϼ, ! 00:14:05 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?). 00:14:07 GregorR: Don't copy from your IRC client, duh! 00:14:09 I FUCKING HATE THIS COUNTRY AND WOULD LIKE TO STAB PEOPLE WITHIN IT 00:14:13 It'll encode to UTF-8 for its display. 00:14:19 'tis true. 00:14:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:14:59 pikhq: i take it you don't know about martin luther king, then 00:15:06 *duck* 00:15:11 He walked on the moon indeed...? 00:15:12 Homophobe repellant: {1, 1, 1, 1, 1} 00:15:22 Sgeo: Har har har. 00:15:22 {'confidence': 0.98999999999999999, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'} 00:15:29 oerjan: I do, in fact, know about Martin Luther King Jr. I also know about Martin Luther. 00:15:30 OK, EUC-KR for Korean, no great surprise. 00:15:43 GregorR: Oh lawdy, does it have varying encodings? 00:15:46 pikhq: you might have them confused. 00:15:53 ehird: Apparently. 00:15:57 oerjan: ... 00:16:04 GregorR: Try French or something. 00:16:07 oerjan: What makes you think that? 00:16:07 Sgeo: huh? 00:16:22 oerjan: {1,1,1,1,1} is homogeneous 00:16:24 ehird: [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' [vP [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP [CP C [TP [DP ] [T' [T to] [vP [v' [v [V say] v] [VP [CP [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing]]] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [DP ]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [DP [DP INDEF] [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.ps 00:16:26 t] [VP [CP C [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [] []]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 00:16:28 pikhq: your violent desires 00:16:29 there. that is more correct 00:16:32 augur: alwl 00:16:33 lawl 00:16:47 oerjan: I do not tolerate fools well. 00:17:02 I am not Gandhi. 00:17:02 ehird: i find that a very weak connection 00:17:14 Nor am I Martin Luther King, Jr. 00:17:15 oerjan: thus "har har har". 00:17:26 I am a man who dislikes stupidity, and goes over-the-top on IRC. 00:17:27 ehird: {'confidence': 0.75502604851710919, 'encoding': 'ISO-8859-2'} 00:17:37 So, I can get the encoding OKishly, but I need to fix it :( 00:17:38 GregorR: Unsurprising. 00:17:44 GregorR: shell out to python 00:17:55 GregorR: in fact 00:17:57 you can do it for any encoding 00:17:59 GregorR: like this: 00:18:03 oerjan, well, also, it's an array, so the types are homogenous 00:18:15 ehird, i can also turn that into a full GB x-bar tree 00:18:30 GregorR: 00:18:31 import chardet; x = sys.stdin.read(); sys.stdout.write(x.decode(chardet.detect(x)['encoding']).encode('UTF-8')) 00:18:33 Tada. 00:18:42 That's more or less what I was looking for. 00:18:56 oh well 00:19:15 GregorR: Wait. 00:19:17 add "import sys; " to the start. 00:19:58 OK, fixering ... 00:20:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Homologically equivalent"). 00:20:22 GregorR: In fact, you should just filter all egobot things through it :P 00:20:29 Death to non-UTF8! 00:20:34 *UTF-8 00:22:31 Heh, forgot to install chardet on the host :P 00:22:41 Was wondering why it wasn't working. 00:23:40 Why in the world is Google serving non-UTF-8? 00:23:43 Hate so much. 00:24:02 pikhq: i guess cause google translate is mainly croudsourced? 00:24:05 also bandwidth maybe 00:24:08 "In rural areas, couples are allowed a second child if their first is a girl. " 00:24:19 Way to worsen the balance, China 00:24:49 `translateto ko Hello, world! 00:24:51 안녕하세요, 세계! 00:25:04 Still doesn't translate back, and I'm not sure why :( 00:25:10 China is now dealing with, well, a demographics timebomb. 00:25:16 `translate 안녕하세요, 세계! 00:25:17 ì • ë ... • í • ~ ì "¸ ìš", ì "¸ ê ³"! 00:25:23 ... 00:26:41 Weirder still, the used URL, http://translate.google.com/translate_t?text=%ec%95%88%eb%85%95%ed%95%98%ec%84%b8%ec%9a%94%2c%20%ec%84%b8%ea%b3%84%21&sl=auto&tl=en , works fine? 00:27:08 GregorR: because translate and translateto are separate 00:27:08 ehird 00:27:11 because you reverted in a huff 00:27:15 `cat bin/translate 00:27:16 #!/bin/bash \ translateto "en $1" 00:27:19 or not 00:27:20 in full GB-style X-Bar form: 00:27:21 [CP [C' [C [T did] C] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [vP [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP [V' [CP [C' C [TP [T' [T to] [vP [v' [v [V say] v] [VP [V' [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D' [D the] [NP [N' [N thing]]]]] [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' [] []]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' [DP [DP [D' [D INDEF]]] [CP [C' [C 00:27:24 what] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' [CP [C' C [TP [DP [D' [D that]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' [] []]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 00:27:37 augur: it has to be noted i'm not really fussed 00:27:44 what? 00:27:58 i dont speak confused little boy :P 00:28:15 Nonsense! 00:28:22 's called british 00:31:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:31:53 "Lenovo recommends you burn a restore DVD" 00:31:54 err 00:32:00 why didn't they just include one? 00:32:04 Cost? 00:32:08 instead of just a repair partition on the disk 00:32:21 Yes, because 2¢ is a lot of money. 00:32:36 it is when you're a chinese computer company :) 00:32:46 also they have to figure out how to do it and the like 00:33:13 ehird, now they have to figure out how to create a dvd burning app 00:33:13 (Taiwanese, IIRC) 00:33:36 GregorR: ha, i accidentally furthered the oppression of a nation! 00:33:39 cool am i 00:33:45 Fuck China. 00:33:50 GregorR: Taiwan lays claim to all of China, not just the Taiwan administrative region. 00:33:58 pikhq: No, they don't any more. 00:34:02 GregorR: Dude, you might smash it. 00:34:03 pikhq: Not for a long time. 00:34:04 I just gave you my OpenID, why do you want me to make a password for you 00:34:05 ? 00:34:07 Fuck plastic cups or something 00:34:07 Yes they do. 00:35:15 hm 00:35:22 seems my drive is a DVD-RAM one 00:35:24 interesting 00:35:33 AnMaster: DVD-...RAM? 00:35:36 What 00:35:39 Lenovo told me not to use DVD RAM for the backup cds though 00:35:40 ehird, .... 00:35:43 ehird, google 00:35:51 DVD-RAM is not RAM 00:35:53 it is a format 00:35:55 GregorR: Map of the Republic of China (AKA Taiwan, AKA Chinese Taipei, AKA ...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png 00:35:59 "DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)" 00:36:02 that's impossible 00:36:02 ehird, iirc apple's superdrives can handle it too 00:36:06 unless you have tons and tons of lasers 00:36:11 all focused at different points 00:36:19 ehird, IT IS NOT RAM AS IN RANDOM ACCESS? KAY? 00:36:21 Taiwan makes fucking huge claims. 00:36:24 ;) 00:36:25 Dude. 00:36:26 AnMaster: ""DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)"" 00:36:28 —Wikipedia 00:36:30 So STFU 00:36:31 It is. 00:36:32 oh ok 00:36:34 then it is 00:36:40 …which is impossible. 00:36:46 ehird, anyway, read the article 00:36:56 pikhq: This would appear to be the legal claims they've made ever since they were ousted. 00:36:56 I am. 00:36:59 It's not random access. 00:37:09 pikhq: Nowadays they're basically just trying to get people to accept that Taiwan is not part of China. 00:37:15 No, that's their current claims. 00:38:25 It has never renounced any claims over mainland China or over Mongolia... 00:38:36 Although the administration of pro-independence President Chen Shui-bian (2000–2008) did not actively claim sovereignty over all of China, the national boundaries of the ROC have not been redrawn and its outstanding territorial claims from the late 1940s have not been revised. 00:38:41 Bleh, screwy new president apparently. 00:38:49 Yup. 00:41:02 China v. Taiwan is screwy. 00:41:15 Because somehow, Taiwan declaring independence would result in a war. 00:41:27 ... But Taiwan claiming all of China would not... 00:41:40 Heh 00:41:48 ehird, anyway, you found out now about DVD-RAM I guess? 00:41:58 /shrug 00:45:08 what the hell 00:45:22 it wants three dvds then fills each with about 1 GB 00:45:23 err 00:45:28 why not use one dvd then 00:45:34 I like how you've had the laptop for many, many hours and haven't actually got around to USING it. 00:45:48 ehird, true :P 00:46:01 ehird, I blame windows 00:46:26 You know what there's a market for? 00:46:46 Computer makers that ship sturdy, standard systems without cutting corners for a non-cost-cutting price. 00:46:54 Without any custom software or manuals or anything. 00:47:11 Heavens only know why there isn't such a company. 00:47:20 Wow, that sentence was awkward. 00:47:30 ehird, and with any cds needed already generated 00:47:39 No CDs needed! 00:47:41 It's stock everything. 00:47:44 They give you the OS CD. 00:47:45 In other words, someone that ships what you could get from Newegg, only already put together. 00:47:45 ehird, anyway I ran memtest on it 00:47:50 that took an hour or so 00:47:56 Oh, and they should memtest before shipping. :-P 00:47:59 pikhq: Exactly! 00:47:59 ehird, just wanted to be sure early on the memory had no issues 00:48:20 Add a bit of craftsmanship to picking the components, and perhaps their own, decent case. 00:48:42 (Craftsmanship including, e.g. "replace the heatsink/fans with something bigger, better and quieter" and the like) 00:48:43 I'd buy it. 00:48:51 It's silly that it doesn't exist. 00:49:03 Especially for laptops. 00:49:13 You can't newegg yourself a DIY laptop. 00:49:14 ehird, yes indeed 00:49:37 why can't you DIY laptops? 00:49:43 I mean, really 00:49:53 it's a bit less spacious really 00:49:54 AnMaster: Chassis, screen and also extreme thinness is required. 00:49:54 that is all 00:49:56 Custom motherboards. 00:49:58 AnMaster: A bit? 00:50:01 Massively. 00:50:04 Also, portable power. 00:50:05 ehird, well ok, a lot 00:50:07 Also, the screen. 00:50:21 ehird, the power adapter is mostly external 00:50:24 Laptops are truly hard things to make, and a marvel of engineering; how come you can't get one that's made right? 00:50:26 AnMaster: battery etc 00:50:26 and well battery hm 00:50:32 ehird, pre-made cases? 00:50:39 you can build that for normal computers 00:50:41 cases I mean 00:50:50 or you could DYI that too in plywood 00:50:51 AnMaster: You can buy them, but they kind of suck and also are hard to get a hold of. 00:50:52 I guesds 00:50:54 guess* 00:50:56 I mean, DIYing a desktop? 00:51:00 Get a case. Attach the mobo. 00:51:04 Put in the CPU, apply heatsink and fan. 00:51:07 Put in the RAM, harddrives. 00:51:10 ehird, yep. I meant getting a laptop case and such 00:51:11 Attach powersupply. 00:51:11 anyway 00:51:13 You're done. 00:51:18 A laptop is much more involved. 00:51:24 why not make the mobos standard sizes like they are for desktops 00:51:37 AnMaster: too big! 00:51:48 ehird, well not the *same* standard sizes of course 00:51:50 different ones 00:51:55 a laptop standard 00:51:56 they're too square 00:51:58 it just isn't practical 00:52:00 AnMaster: also wifi antenna 00:52:02 do you know 00:52:04 that in laptops 00:52:08 the antenna is wound around the whole case? 00:52:09 seriously 00:52:09 ehird, isn't it in the monitor 00:52:12 to get the best signal 00:52:13 AnMaster: nope 00:52:22 ehird, it was on my old ibook! 00:52:23 you have a sprawling wifi snake in your laptop, filling all the gaps 00:52:36 ehird, ok that 00:52:39 that's* fun 00:52:43 'tis 00:52:50 ehird, citation needed though 00:53:02 reddit comment 00:53:07 the most accurate of all sources 00:53:15 AnMaster: also, don't you have a screwdriver? check ;-) 00:53:27 ehird, um? 00:53:34 I have a lot of screwdrivers 00:53:35 open 'er up! 00:53:36 even Torx 00:53:49 ehird, would void warranty 00:53:50 so no 00:54:16 have you ever used a computer warranty? also, you know that it'd be basically impossible to check whether you've opened it? 00:55:05 it is "extracting files" still... for the recovery cd thingy 00:55:16 ehird, yes I used computer warranty once 00:55:20 a mobo died 00:55:26 got it replaced 00:55:47 but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness! 00:55:51 dun dun dun 00:55:55 ehird, also it isn't since there is a "warranty void if removed" label over one of the screwholes 00:56:01 heh 00:56:03 apply it back :D 00:56:17 ehird, won't get it loose easily. I know how they work 00:56:25 they break rather than come away easily 00:56:26 darn :) 00:56:30 http://ilovetypography.com/img/2009/02/kern-iphone.jpg ← <3 00:56:43 best game ever 00:56:57 but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness! <-- actually that time it was on a desktop 00:57:05 ! 00:57:07 :p 00:57:50 ehird, what's with the "!" 00:57:56 dunno 00:57:58 feigned surprise 00:58:11 why be surprised by that... 00:58:19 as i said, feigned 00:58:30 ok 00:58:36 what's the point 00:58:43 your mom 00:59:01 btw... for harddrives 00:59:07 why 5400 and 7200 00:59:09 I mean 00:59:17 why not 8192 or 7000 00:59:19 or whatever 00:59:36 5400 and 7200 seems like very odd choices for RPM 01:01:06 ehird, ^ 01:01:21 motor speeds i guess 01:01:28 mhm 01:01:33 i.e. this motor speed runs this diameter platter at N rpm 01:01:39 maybe those speeds are cheaper and masproduced? 01:01:39 and that motor speed is something saner 01:01:43 ah 01:01:50 oh and 01:02:04 what was it now 01:02:08 oh yeah 01:02:15 the lenovo comes with three partitions 01:02:23 one is C: the other ones are weird ones 01:02:30 Q: and S: 01:02:37 it sounds like lenovo made thinkpads kind of crappy. 01:02:46 called Q: Lenovo and S: SERVICE003 01:02:59 ehird, possible 01:03:18 ehird, these are recovery partitions thingies 01:03:28 not sure what exactly is the point of two separate ones 01:03:31 I bloody hate recovery crap 01:03:35 double clicking on each: 01:03:38 Just gimme the OS disk and tell users to back up 01:03:45 (persuasively, of course.) 01:03:47 Q: This is for recovery, click here to create a recovery disk 01:04:05 S: This is required to boot windows. Please don't change anything 01:04:14 (the messages are longer, abridged versions) 01:04:18 (oh and they are in Swedish) 01:07:07 ah found what S: does 01:07:28 ehird, it seems S: is for the "preboot area" which is some sort of hardware test thingy you can access during boot 01:07:50 kill it! kill it with fire! 01:07:55 ehird, why? 01:08:01 it's cruft! 01:08:01 it takes just a few hundred MB 01:08:10 which is quite a lot for that indeed 01:08:25 ehird, I think it will break the bootloader. They don't use the standard windows one 01:08:31 anyway yes I will kill it 01:08:39 once I got the restore dvds burned 01:08:58 i thought you were wiping windows anyhoo 01:09:13 ... They don't use the standard Windows bootloader? 01:09:17 Nuke that shit. 01:09:25 ehird, I am 01:09:31 pikhq, they chainload 01:09:44 fun 01:09:47 AnMaster: Kill it! Kill it with fire! 01:09:50 I mounted the recover dvd 1 thingy 01:10:01 $ ls 01:10:01 python24 recovery swwork utils 01:10:05 that is in 01:10:08 arvid@tux /mnt/cdrom/preboot $ ls 01:10:16 damn copy paste error destroying the effect 01:10:57 anyway: http://pastebin.ca/1506371 01:11:46 Winpe! 01:12:56 ehird, not sure what winpe is 01:13:01 typo for wipe? 01:13:12 Windows poop edition. 01:13:22 But really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Preinstallation_Environment 01:17:45 ehird, can it run normal windows software? 01:18:16 A subset, I guess. 01:18:20 See the screenshot. 01:20:53 http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png ^^ 01:21:34 GregorR: Schedule+, ey? Or should I say... CRON? 01:21:52 ehird: ...? 01:22:07 From that screenshot. 01:22:17 ehird: Yeah, but you think that just because it's in that screenshot means I use it? :P 01:22:18 Schedule+ runs a program at a given time, IIRC. 01:22:21 Or at least, that's one feature. 01:22:26 GregorR: I was just juxtaposing with the bash :P 01:22:30 Ah :P 01:22:40 GregorR: Can you run Windows 95 explorer.exe on that? 01:22:46 Presumably. 01:22:47 You could have a taskbar with the lean, mean 3.11 kernel! 01:22:53 Actually, no, probably not. 01:22:53 :D 01:22:54 Doit 01:22:59 :( 01:23:07 True. 01:23:09 The thing about NT 3.51 is that it has nearly everything about Win32 EXCEPT that it has no registry. 01:23:19 So things written exclusively for Windows don't work, but things ported to Windows do. 01:23:22 GregorR: I'm sure you could write a registryd.exe :- 01:23:23 :-P 01:23:24 that sounds great 01:23:39 there's nothing wrong with a registry, AnMaster. it just so happens that windows has two 01:23:42 one's called C:\ 01:23:46 and the other has no name 01:23:50 ehird, well yeah 01:23:59 the noname one sucks 01:24:07 if it was the only one that'd be fine 01:24:10 it's having two that sucks 01:24:26 the other one is stored on the first 01:24:28 did you know that 01:24:36 No duh. 01:24:40 c:\windows\system32\config\ iirc 01:24:46 somewhere in there 01:24:57 where else would it go 01:25:12 ehird, on a separate partition with it's own registry file system? 01:25:21 Those obviously don't exist 01:25:22 (not really) 01:25:24 so I don't see why it's surprising 01:25:34 ehird, the file system would be just the registry file 01:26:30 yes, but it's not 01:26:35 as anyone who's ever looked at partitioning knows 01:26:38 so it's obviously on the partition 01:26:45 yes 01:26:57 ehird, make the CMOS very big and store it there? 01:27:11 Just… no. 01:27:23 Besides, wiping a Windows partition and reinstalling it wipes the registry too :P 01:27:50 yes 01:28:11 ehird, I was just suggesting future "improvements" to get rid of it being on the partition :( 01:28:42 :p 01:33:33 ehird, use non-volatile RAM and store it there? 01:33:46 Non-volatile RAM = SSD 01:33:52 AKA a hard drive 01:34:04 ehird, well.. non-volatile ram can be magnetic ram too 01:34:12 but that would have the in memory format 01:34:16 not the on-disk format 01:34:18 DRAM SSD? 01:34:38 ehird, you still access it like a filesystem right 01:34:44 not by reading locations in RAM 01:34:48 yes 01:34:50 o.O, ehird and I reply to the same person on Reddit, barely even noticed 01:34:51 er 01:34:53 what's the difference 01:35:00 just use dd on the block device 01:35:01 Sgeo: link 01:35:04 ehird, well I meant something you would use the instruction "mov" to write to for example 01:35:08 http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/94bqc/oh_mr_dawkinsthats_cold/c0bdodr 01:35:28 Your reply sucks, mine doesn't :-P 01:35:43 [[Unfortunately, I find that the format of Q&A sessions following a lecture leave very little room for real discussion. It's also my personal belief that Dawkins is a very "hard-line" atheist and doesn't want to give this man's question any validity by justifying it with a response any more in-depth than, "Sorry, I know it matters to you, but it's still crap."]] 01:35:51 — as opposed to "Aw, you're delusional. That's okay! Fluffy bunnies." 01:35:55 (I know that's not yours) 01:35:59 (I just saw it now) 01:36:05 Anyhoo, buhbyye 01:36:07 *buhbye 01:36:08 bye 01:40:24 * AnMaster checks if the recovery cd works... yep 01:40:29 right time to install linux over it all 01:41:13 And it took you how many hours? 01:41:30 pikhq, 6? 01:41:34 pikhq, included memtest too 01:41:43 pikhq, which I ran while I was eating 01:41:56 pikhq, burning recovery dvds? an hour maybe? 01:42:05 pikhq, bios update first too 01:42:20 So, about as much time as I spend on a Gentoo install. 01:42:28 pikhq, and playing around with vista to check how shitty it was 01:46:16 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:50:09 for partitioning: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page 01:50:12 it rocks 01:50:16 VERY RECOMMENDED 01:50:23 has gparted and so on 01:50:28 and memtest 01:50:31 and everything else you need 02:01:20 -!- augur has joined. 02:01:23 oh xfce seems nice ehird 02:02:42 ehird, pikhq ^ 02:03:21 hey boring 02:20:24 * GregorR switched to XFCE recently. 02:21:31 AnMaster: do realize i will need you to either tell me you've listened to it, or tell my you won't. i do not need comments on the content, but i need my messages to go through. 02:21:54 also i'm content with you not actually listening to it, as long as you consistently lie you have. 02:22:48 excuse my obsessivity. 02:24:14 oklopol, right... will listen to it in a sec 02:25:04 no rush. but yeah do it right away. 02:25:40 oklopol, fine. But rather bad microphone? 02:25:46 I shall now attempt to make a native winelf compiler on winelf. 02:25:49 and just a blur at the end right? 02:25:51 it's the computer's mic. 02:25:56 err no shouldn't be 02:26:02 Maybe I should make macelf ... 02:26:02 oklopol, sure is 02:26:05 i can hear most of the notes in the end too 02:26:14 GregorR, winelf? 02:26:29 It's an environment for making ELF executables for Windows. 02:26:39 GregorR, can they execute? 02:26:43 X_X 02:26:54 No, the whole environment serves no purpose whatsoever. 02:27:01 GregorR, I'm just so surprised 02:27:12 Yes, I have an ELF loader for Windows. 02:27:22 And a patch to GCC that allows it to create valid ELF binaries. 02:27:22 GregorR, how does it work? 02:27:24 I mean 02:27:25 (for Windows) 02:27:31 (And libraries) 02:27:35 how does it hook into the windows system 02:27:52 GregorR, can it produce *.so too? or just *.a libraries? 02:27:57 .so too 02:28:08 wow 02:28:14 GregorR, you have libdl? 02:28:16 It doesn't hook in to Windows in any meaningful way. You have to run the binaries like elfload.exe someELF 02:28:20 to dynamically load them? 02:28:24 Yes 02:28:25 GregorR, meh 02:28:42 You can dynaload both .so's and .dll's. 02:28:54 Although .dll's still have all the limitations .dll's have of course :P 02:28:59 GregorR, what about TLS? 02:29:05 GregorR, thread local storage 02:29:11 do you support it for *.so 02:29:16 I assume you coded all this 02:29:26 GregorR: That's pretty awesome. 02:29:34 GregorR, and a link 02:29:36 I have no TLS support, no. 02:29:40 Not sure how to do that on Windows. 02:29:42 AnMaster: no, definitely not blur, at least when played with my computer's speaker; but anyway, not important 02:29:55 oklopol, the *sound* isn't 02:29:58 the video is 02:30:00 oh 02:30:02 oklopol, any nice playing 02:30:04 yes, of course 02:30:07 and* 02:30:11 i play more notes a second than it takes pics a second 02:30:19 frames whatever 02:30:25 oklopol, need a better camera :P 02:30:27 AND mic 02:30:37 and better songs ;=) 02:30:40 I want crystal clear pro recording sound next time 02:30:44 GregorR: You could totally use that as the basis for UNIX-on-Windows. 02:30:45 oklopol, what song was it btw? 02:30:47 I have no clue 02:31:00 something i composed like 5 years ago 02:31:10 it's actually longer, but i only play that part fast 02:31:20 Just a sec, I'm sticking it on codu.org ... had it on berlios.de 02:31:44 I will totally check that out once I get this XP VM installed. 02:32:27 GregorR: I assume that you have library versioning. 02:32:40 pikhq: Not really :P 02:32:45 pikhq: Patches accepted ;) 02:32:49 Bah. 02:32:54 Windows needs it so badly. So very badly. 02:33:31 http://codu.org/projects/winelf/ 02:34:06 (I'm still mid-push, so wait a tick :P ) 02:38:40 pikhq: You want the elfload directory, btw. 02:38:48 (elfload is portable, btw) 02:39:03 (works on Linux, but can't load Linux ELFs ... trust me, it does work though :P ) 02:41:28 yessss 02:41:30 polish in the topic 02:41:36 GregorR: Heh. 02:42:14 yeah polish it in! 02:42:16 It can load statically-compiled Linux ELFs, it only can't load normal ones because they depend on libc, and libc depends on ld.so >_> 02:47:21 You should totally make a Cygwin-alike using this. ;p 02:48:40 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah. 02:48:41 I'm open to patches ;) 02:49:20 Hmm. libhost_ means... Yes, you could build a Cygwin userspace with it, depending only on Cygwin. 02:49:28 Yeah 02:49:32 (with some effort) 02:49:44 ... nearly all you need is to elfimplib cygwin1.dll 02:49:47 (like making exec use elfload) 02:49:58 Yeah, that's a problem >_> 02:50:17 But Cygwin is GPL'd. ;) 02:50:20 The main problem is that I have /no/ idea which functions in the various libraries I've collectively called libc are capable of calling functions. 02:50:23 Erm 02:50:24 So, it's definitely doable. 02:50:25 running progarms 02:50:28 *programs 02:50:52 I'm pretty sure in Cygwin, it all goes through cygwin1.dll. 02:50:56 But am not sure. 02:51:20 Erm. 02:51:26 I was referring to solving the same problem for what I have right now. 02:51:26 That was a weird statement. 02:51:28 Which is MingW-ish. 02:51:45 That would be a royal bitch. 02:52:04 Yeah :P 02:52:24 The main reason I want to solve it is so that when I compile GCC, it'll actually work ;) 02:53:45 Perfectly good thing to want to solve. 02:54:43 Hmm. You could probably get ReactOS to actually use WinELF for its POSIX subsystem... 02:55:12 I've never tried it on ReactOS :P 02:55:17 `translate everything to japanese 02:55:18 In fact, I've never tried it on Vista >_> 02:55:18 everything to japanese 02:55:19 I wouldn't be surprised if it failed utterly there. 02:55:29 Tried it on WINE? 02:55:51 Works on wine, works on Windows XP. 02:56:25 Then it should work on ReactOS. 02:56:37 Anybody got Vista somewhere? 02:56:39 Most of the ReactOS userspace is WINE code. 02:56:47 i've got vista 02:56:52 not that that's useful to you 02:56:53 No, but you should be able to obtain Server 2008 for free. 02:57:02 (since you're a student. 02:57:06 suggested computer name for the thinkpad? 02:57:07 pikhq, ^ 02:57:17 "phoenix" and "tux" are already in use 02:57:21 otherwise everything is free 02:57:29 I reserve the right to refuse 02:57:41 pikhq: I could get Vista or 2008 for free, but that would wound me deeply. 02:58:05 oklopol: Why is that not useful to me? 02:58:20 GregorR: because i'm busy spamming estoeric atm. 02:59:21 GregorR: Fair enough. 03:05:22 ../../binutils/dwarf.c:207: error: unknown conversion type character ‘I’ in format 03:05:27 * GregorR shakes his fist at GCC 03:05:36 If it just didn't check, it wouldn't mark that as an error, and it would work :P 03:05:54 GCC hearts its checking. 03:05:57 Instead I have to dig into the bowels of GCC, and convince it that yes, I DO want the MSVC printf conversion type characters on ELF. 03:07:38 * pikhq looks for how to convince GCC to accept other conversion types 03:12:02 -Wno-format 03:13:54 Disables all format checking in theory. 03:18:21 encrypted /home works 03:18:25 it asks for password as boot 03:18:26 nice 03:20:40 `translateto japanese everything 03:20:42 everything 03:20:50 `translateto ja panese everything 03:20:52 ‚ˇ‚ׂÄpanese 03:20:57 Huh. 03:21:08 broken? 03:21:11 `translateto ja foo baz quux 03:21:13 fooはバズquux 03:21:20 Apparently baz is a word. 03:21:58 Err 03:22:00 Shouldn't be? 03:22:14 `translateto ja This is a test. 03:22:15 これはテストされています。 03:22:22 And it translates as wa bazu. 03:22:28 It just couldn't figure out the format above because it was half English and half Japanese I suspect. 03:22:34 I guess it transliterated. 03:23:11 Back-translating, はバズ means "Baz:" 03:23:18 pikhq: re -Wno-format: I'd rather make it do it right. 03:23:31 Wait, maybe it means ": baz". 03:24:29 `translateto ja I do not speak Japanese. 03:24:30 私は日本語を話すことはありません。 03:24:40 I'm going to translate "Beef: it's what's for dinner" and see if it begins with "牛肉は". 03:24:46 `translateto ja Beef: it's what's for dinner. 03:24:48 牛肉：ディナーのためのものだ。 03:24:50 I will not stop you. 03:25:04 Wow, a colon. 03:25:06 Somebody's off by one character. 03:25:06 GregorR: Making GCC handle other conversion types requires glibc. 03:25:08 `translateto ja Beef is what's for dinner. 03:25:10 夕食の牛肉だ。 03:25:19 That was half as short. 03:25:19 (IIRC) 03:25:32 pikhq: GCC handles other conversion types already on MingW >_< 03:25:34 Anyway, I sense katakana. 03:25:45 * Warrigal transliterates 牛肉：ディナーのためのものだ。 03:27:59 Something to do with register_printf_function. 03:28:05 beef : DINAA notamenomonoda . 03:29:07 I'm sure that last bit is more than one word. 03:31:36 So am I correct in my assumption that in spite of all the positive comments a moment ago, not a single person has checked out winelf, and heaven forbit the thought that they've actually compiled it? :P 03:32:48 Oh wait, pikhq identified libhost_ 03:32:50 Cancel that. 03:37:31 I've not compiled it for lack of functioning Win32 or the desire to set it up, but I have been poking around in the source. 03:38:02 Pretty spiffy. 03:39:37 I don't have Win32 right now, but I can still compile it :P 03:39:49 apt-get install mingw32 03:39:58 Gentoo. 03:40:23 Though the crossdev script makes that nice... 03:40:39 Meh. 03:40:48 * pikhq installs crossdev 03:41:42 Then, should just be crossdev --target=i686-pc-win32-mingw or some such. 03:41:53 i686-pc-mingw32 03:42:30 Thanks. 03:42:44 And it magically compiles a crosscompiler. 03:43:03 I'll betcha it can't do i686-win32elf ;) 03:45:13 Could without too much work. 03:45:31 win32elf's "libc" is wonko 03:46:22 The really nice thing is that the crosscompilers from crossdev are automatically stuck in the package manager... 03:46:31 Nice Gentooism. 03:55:23 Howzat goin' 03:56:33 Currently fetching gcc. 04:04:38 Any Europhiles about? Which side of a Euro coin is "heads"? 04:05:20 heads is usually the one with the head, the other has the number, euros just have the number 04:05:21 right? 04:05:40 i don't actually know, never threw a coin in english 04:05:46 well flipped 04:09:49 * GregorR reappears. 04:09:54 "heads" is the side with the head, yes :P 04:10:02 But euros have a number and some symbol. 04:10:11 The symbol is reminiscent of what I'd expect on the "tails" side of a US coin. 04:10:34 Anyway, Wikipedia confirms that the numbered side is "tails" 04:10:44 (Or, more precisely, the reverse, as opposed to the obverse) 04:12:17 well now that wp confirms it, i can tell you i was actually 100% sure about it. 04:38:32 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 04:38:32 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:42:10 -!- augur has joined. 05:43:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:56:01 -!- augur has joined. 06:42:13 The backup finally seems unwonko, at a mere 8MB rather than the 65MB/day it was at first. 06:43:31 wut 06:43:56 Wiki backup. 06:44:04 I'm doing a nightly differential backup. 06:44:18 The first night to the second night something got screwy, so the diff was 65MB (the total size). 06:44:28 The second to the third night it got fixed, which of course again made the diff 65MB. 06:44:39 Tonight it's finally down to a reasonable 8MB. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:47 -!- leonid_ has joined. 08:48:51 -!- leonid_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:15:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:21:36 Way to worsen the balance, China 10:22:40 no that won't worsen the balance, assuming it actually does decrease infanticide. 10:22:53 (and abortions) 10:27:23 -!- Nowicjusz has joined. 10:34:49 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?). 10:43:04 ehird, opinion on xfce? 10:44:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:45:29 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 10:46:03 -!- jix has joined. 10:48:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:07:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 11:07:05 -!- ehird has joined. 11:07:07 -!- ehird has left (?). 11:07:11 -!- ehird has joined. 11:07:38 AnMaster: xfce is terrible. 11:07:52 ehird, why? It seems quite nice and simple 11:08:35 How to make XFCE: Take gnome. Make it uglier. Make it more obscure. Rewrite a ton of stuff because NIH. Add too many settings for its own good. 11:09:08 ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice. 11:09:21 list some better one 11:09:30 X is bad. Why? Reasons. X is not bad. 11:09:53 ehird, list some better one 11:10:11 xfce may be far from perfect, but it seems better than the two other alternatives I tested 11:10:30 My broken English parser's stack overflowed, but Gnome is better. 11:10:41 I disagree 11:10:47 If you have some psychological control freak problems, try one of the window managers like pekwm. 11:11:54 ehird, oh btw the touchpad is mutlitouch 11:12:05 Yes… like all Synaptics touchpads. 11:12:12 not synaptics 11:12:19 ALPS DualPoint 11:12:23 Well, kay. 11:12:28 ehird, same driver though 11:12:48 AnMaster: Anyway, I can easily do the same to you; Gnome sucks even more. Why? 11:13:35 ehird, well this is of course subjective. But it always seemed to lack settings, and have a kind of "dark" feeling, even if you changed theme 11:13:45 (and I dislike that dark feeling) 11:14:02 01:56 AnMaster: suggested computer name for the thinkpad? \ 11:14:03 Dingbat. 11:14:14 ehird, well it timed out and I went for dragon 11:14:19 a few hours ago 11:14:21 AnMaster: Okay, wait, dark feel? 11:14:23 Sec. 11:14:31 ehird, but why dingbat? I might change if it is funny enough 11:14:37 http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.26/figures/gnome.png.en_GB 11:14:42 This is what stockG nome looks like. 11:14:45 *k G 11:14:52 I'm having a hard time imagining something more... well... light. 11:14:53 ehird, yep 11:15:17 XFCE is… much the same, so I don't understand at all. 11:15:26 ehird, it was much worse a few years ago, but still not light like kdeclassic is. xfce4 needed a bit of poking to make it light 11:15:35 "light"? 11:15:45 Really, I can't help you with undefined notions. 11:15:57 ehird, well this is all subjective... 11:16:20 however I seriously need to fix the fonts in xfce somehow... 11:16:23 alternate universe: Why isn't XFCE nice? Its gloob is too zackynicky. Ohh 11:17:02 Programmer's Day - an informal festival programmers, celebrated on the 256-day year (255 th with a zero). Number 256 (2 8), chosen because it is the quantity of numbers, which can be expressed through vosmirazryadnogo bytes. Also, «256» in hexadecimal notation - it «100» ( «0x100»). And this is the maximum degree of 2, which is less than 365 (days per year). 11:17:04 24 July 2009, the Ministry of Communications and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation prepared and submitted to the Government of the Russian Federation a draft Decree of President Russia «On the Day of the programmer" [2]. 11:17:18 !swedish wir muessen die juden ausrotten 11:17:18 there 11:17:19 vur mooessee deee-a joodee oosruttee 11:17:22 slight hinting helped 11:17:28 was using no hinting before 11:17:35 AnMaster: Did you install the BCI freetype? 11:18:03 Subpixel antialiasing is uselessly ugly without it. 11:18:03 ehird, not sure yet... I still haven't got stuff like wlan setup properly. And touchpad is kind of neurotic atm 11:18:13 Also, yeah, no-hinting just looks bad in freetype. 11:18:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:18:48 "I can't contradict or refute the materialist hypothesis because what I am speaking of is an unmeasurable internal state not observable behavior. " 11:18:50 → 11:19:07 "This exists because I say it does. It is not observable in any way, nor does it affect anything." 11:19:16 * ehird CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP 11:20:06 ehird, how do I know if freetype is BCI? 11:20:20 actually I could just check the PKGBUILD file 11:20:25 Are you using Ubuntu? If not, get a package marked super-illegal-bci-this-will-explode-in-to-your-FACE. 11:20:30 ehird, Arch Linux 11:20:33 ~end of flowchart~ 11:20:38 AnMaster: I was doing it in flowchart form. 11:20:44 hah 11:20:59 * AnMaster waits for abs to sync 11:21:04 AnMaster: Anyway, it'd be nice if you could clarify your feeling of brooding Gnome evil darkness. Maybe the window shadows?… they're not default, you know :P 11:21:34 ehird, icon theme maybe 11:21:42 Have you, BTW, set the dpi properly? RGB antialiasing would incidentally look like crap with that being wrong too, BCI or not. 11:21:46 that is one part of it at least 11:21:49 AnMaster: is your gnome experience mainly with ubuntu? 11:22:00 its icon theme is not default or anything; it does make it quite dark indeed 11:22:21 ehird, I think first time I used gnome was Red Hat 6 11:22:26 but I used it since then 11:22:32 and mainly with SuSE iirc 11:22:42 but I tried it on arch today 11:22:43 as I said 11:22:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("evil dark gnomes, brooding"). 11:22:57 nice quit message 11:23:07 You didn't say that that I read, but. 11:23:20 ehird, err? Parse fail at "that that" 11:23:29 (You didn't say that) that I read 11:23:40 ah ok.. anyway: ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice. 11:23:45 Ah. 11:23:56 ehird, used each for maybe half an hour 11:24:06 I'd, personally, vote in favor of giving gnome a try and, like, changing the icon theme? But you using Gnome would pretty much destroy the universe, so. 11:24:19 I mean, it's not perfect, but no desktop environment is. 11:24:26 (Apart from the one you make yourself and only use its apps.) 11:24:35 ehird, I did change icon theme 11:24:40 to a few of the other ones 11:24:49 ehird, I'm NOT zzo? kay? 11:25:16 AnMaster: did you try the Tango icons? 11:25:35 http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project // they're not flashy but they're quite … bright 11:25:42 hm 11:25:45 ehird, about bytecode: 11:25:51 http://tango.freedesktop.org/images/2/20/Tango-feet.png 11:25:52 there seems to be a patch to enable it in arch 11:25:53 -#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING 11:25:54 +#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING 11:26:01 -/* #define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER */ 11:26:01 AnMaster: Unpatented? 11:26:01 +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER 11:26:07 oh, undef. 11:26:08 -#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED 11:26:09 +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED 11:26:11 AnMaster: Yes, that would presumably do it. 11:26:22 ehird, and well it looks quite sane apart from DPI 11:26:35 how did you calculate DPI again? the one you gave me seems slightly wrong 11:26:51 AnMaster: Measure the diagonal size in inches of the screen, plz? 11:26:54 I'll give an exact DPI. 11:27:06 * AnMaster looks for a long enough ruler 11:27:20 Hooray for tape measures? 11:27:30 ehird, don't have one 11:27:31 anyway 11:27:34 39 cm it seems 11:27:38 or pretty close 11:27:47 the edge stands out a bit in the upper part so can't get very close 11:27:48 = 15.3" = 15.4" 11:27:53 indeed 11:28:06 AnMaster: could it be 0.5 cm longer, perhaps? 11:28:18 if so that measurement is useless as it doesn't differentiate 15.4"/15.6" 11:28:29 well hard to be sure 11:28:36 AnMaster: Well, try 128.65 = 129 11:28:54 BTW, if the fonts look fine you might not have tried RGB antialiasing. Without the BCI, you can really see the red/green/blue. 11:28:55 seems better 11:29:03 (Maybe that's why you hated it.) 11:29:21 Admittedly it might not matter so much with such tiny pixels, but. 11:30:04 hm actually X already pre-calculated it to 128, but then I started using your measurement and it got screwed up 11:30:11 I guess X got smarter nowdays 11:30:20 Well, 128.6 is more like 129 than 128... 11:30:28 It presumably rounded to a power of two. 11:30:31 I guess it has 128 bitmaps. 11:30:31 ehird, it was still quite close 11:30:34 Yeah. 11:30:45 ehird, as opposed to windows going for 96 11:30:59 Windows doesn't even try. 11:31:15 anyway touchpad is still neurotic 11:31:23 Installed the closed source drivers? 11:31:29 trackpoint seems saner after some fiddeling 11:31:31 ehird, there are that? 11:31:33 (Closed source being a good synonym for "working" in the field of drivers.) 11:31:40 AnMaster: Dunno. Search the AUR? 11:31:48 (Well, and the main list.) 11:31:52 ehird, well thinkwiki doesn't mention it 11:32:02 OK then 11:32:04 just the usual open source synaptics drivers 11:32:13 it's just they need fiddling 11:32:46 [[ 11:32:46 enough 11:32:47 Enough Lame Computing - The project for rewriting the computing world 11:32:49 […] 11:32:51 Now we are STILL learning Haskell - this language is teaching us a lot! (March 2008 - November 2009) 11:32:54 ]] 11:32:56 Reinvisioning computing without having a fucking clue about relevant languages fail. 11:33:08 err ... 11:33:21 that quote just seems strange. I can't even figure out what part is wtf 11:33:25 maybe all= 11:33:27 s/=/?/ 11:34:00 Because they have an ALL-ENCOMPASSING NICELY FORMATTED PAGE OF WONDERNESS that consists of saying something only slightly removed from "Hey, I tried Linux today. It's much better than Windows!" in context. 11:34:12 heh 11:34:15 Also, the only other links are to pages that are self-labeldly buzzwords. 11:35:35 why is firefox called "shiretoko" 11:35:57 I thought it was iceweasel that was the non-branded one 11:36:15 It's a nightly thing. 11:36:22 Shiretoko Alpha 1 Release Notes 11:36:22 4 Sep 2008 ... Shiretoko Alpha 1 is an early developer milestone for the next version of Firefox that is being built on top of Mozilla's Gecko 1.9.1 layout ... 11:36:26 AnMaster: so I guess they stole the name for it. 11:36:30 Why are you using a non-branded version? 11:36:34 heh 11:36:41 Meanwhile, 11:36:42 Sponsored Links 11:36:42 Discover Shiretoko 11:36:44 ehird, because I installed it from arch repo? 11:36:44 Stories of a world natural heritage 11:36:46 site and the Firefox web browser. 11:36:48 DiscoverShiretoko.org 11:36:51 AnMaster: Arch don't have the non-branded version? 11:36:54 Pfft. 11:37:01 That's sily. 11:37:03 With one l. 11:37:14 heh 11:37:21 ubuntu does too? 11:37:29 and debian 11:37:37 Not Ubuntu. 11:37:40 They sucked Mozilla's dick. 11:37:45 And it was, like, 11:37:47 Yeah, ship my branding, baby. 11:37:51 It's non-free but that's okay with me, baby. 11:37:55 Baby, baby. 11:38:02 ↑↑ This is how Ubuntu decisions are made 11:38:09 AnMaster: but anyway doesn't have arch have non-free stuff in its repo? 11:38:26 I'd recommend trying out one of those nifty WebKit browsers, but iirc one of them ignored my dpi settings or something when I last tried 'em. 11:38:51 Arora's pretty cool though. 11:38:59 Fits in with GTK environments too if you install that theme thingy. 11:39:09 (GTK theme thingy.) 11:39:11 ehird, not sure. it might 11:39:19 What might what? 11:39:25 oh, arch 11:39:27 arch have non-free 11:39:38 * AnMaster gets yaourt then http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=5401 11:40:43 AnMaster: thinkhdaps, you mean 11:40:48 not hdapsd 11:40:54 hm ok 11:40:56 wait 11:40:58 that's a gtk applet for it 11:40:59 heh 11:41:00 nm 11:41:59 http://www.discovershiretoko.org/en/stories/;; Damn Mozilla corp, this shit is strained 11:42:02 * ;; 11:42:47 ouch 11:51:04 argh 11:51:15 I know laptop has hdaps, it worked under windows 11:51:21 yet linux claims it isn't supported 11:51:22 huh 11:51:40 “Linux: It just works!” 11:51:50 “*working may involve doing it yourself” 11:51:56 ehird, most stuff does on desktops though 11:52:07 AnMaster: And more laptops are sold than desktops. :P 11:52:15 really? huh 11:52:18 yes 12:07:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:07:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:18:01 I should start speaking like Dijkstra or something. 12:21:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:32:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:38:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:50:06 hm seems to have hit some sort of wlan bug 12:58:02 it fails to assoc for several minutes after a cold boot 12:58:21 So does your mom! 12:58:22 seems like same as this: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-wireless-networking-41/wifi-connection-instantly-dissassociating-on-hp2510p-using-iwlagn-driver-692665/?s=f40682f15c4e0a045ce9e004a347851a 12:58:32 and no, my router is not n 12:58:36 so not exactly the same 12:58:43 but very similar 13:34:10 [[As a deist[…]To me, the most basic definition of God is the turtle on the bottom. When and if science comes up with proof of the nature of the basis of our universe, I will continue to call that God.]] 13:34:14 Dammit, I hate pantheistic deism. 13:34:24 "Oh, I believe in God! If by God you mean NATURAL PROCESSES." 13:39:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:39:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:42:10 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,805681,00.html If only this took off then; we'd have progressed beyond copyright decades sooner! We're currently nearing the end of "Phonevision"... funny. 13:42:21 yay got suspend to ram to work 13:42:26 now for suspend to disk 13:42:47 AnMaster: I guess ThinkPads aren't quite as out-of-the-box Linuxy as they once were? 13:42:56 ehird, indeed 13:43:09 ehird, and this seems like a rather new model. As in: nothing knows about it 13:43:24 The R500s are like circa 2007 I think. 13:43:28 Maybe the specific model is new. 13:43:34 yeah I think it is 13:43:36 (Did you get an R500 or something else?) 13:43:37 bbl 13:43:42 ehird, an R500 13:43:45 right 13:43:50 bbl ->->A 13:43:55 s/A$/ 13:43:56 bbl ->-> 13:47:25 (note that Phonevision era's $1 = today's $8.20) 13:51:13 suspend to disk worked out of box. Just one thiny issue: BIOS sees it as a normal bootup. Can probably be easily fixed 13:52:52 dual suspend works with same settings as for suspend to ram 13:53:01 hm wait 13:53:06 no? 13:53:19 well I think I typoed that 13:53:29 what happens when you close the case? 13:54:11 ehird, I haven't set up acpid yet 13:54:18 so nothing 13:54:31 good answer :D 13:54:44 ehird, anyway, the first issue with suspend to ram was that it didn't turn on backlight afterwards 13:54:57 just had to tell it to rerun VBE POST 13:55:12 i don't even know what that *means* 13:55:54 ehird, well. It basically means tell video bios to reinitialise it's own state 13:56:07 and now suspend to both works... 13:56:20 err kind of 13:56:37 ok not really. that messed up a bit 13:56:43 * AnMaster debugs 13:56:50 nice pattern though 13:57:02 vertical blue lines with some Missingno there 13:57:07 ;P 13:57:23 and I could just type reboot by hand and it worked 13:57:41 I'm glad computers like ,e. 13:57:41 me. 13:57:48 (Generally.) 13:57:49 hah 13:58:17 That generally wasn't referring to the typo. 13:58:21 Did you take it as that? 13:58:53 eh? 13:58:59 13:57 ehird: I'm glad computers like ,e. 13:58:59 13:57 ehird: me. 13:59:01 13:57 ehird: (Generally.) 13:59:03 Generally was just a random remark. 13:59:06 hm 13:59:06 Not a "haha, how ironic, it made me typo".\ 13:59:09 s/\\$// 13:59:17 no? 13:59:25 Non. 13:59:29 it was "hah" about that they "generally like you" 13:59:49 Good. 13:59:53 You are not in interpreting error state. 13:59:54 okay... suspend two both is having serious issues... not sure why 14:00:21 You have to think about it from its perspective. 14:00:27 "Okay, okay, we're suspending to RAM, okay, that's good, okay..." 14:00:32 * AnMaster reboots to restore video 14:00:33 "now er... wait, i can't do something, I'm suspended" 14:00:42 "Shit. Shit. That doesn't make any fucking sense. What did I do?" 14:00:44 ehird, it saves to disk first... 14:00:50 "What did I do now? Maybe I'll just break carefully." 14:00:51 AnMaster: Umm, no. 14:00:53 before it suspended 14:00:58 The whole point is that it suspends before saving to disk… 14:01:01 Oh, you mean that's the issue? 14:01:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:01:27 ehird, yes it did. I saw the text saying: "suspending to disk...." for a few seconds, then the suspend to ram led came on 14:01:53 AnMaster: that wasn't the full suspension 14:01:56 that was just the strat 14:01:56 start 14:02:09 AnMaster: your drive is not fast enough to write 4GB of RAM to disk in a few seconds 14:02:18 ehird, linux doesn't write it all 14:02:22 it writes what is used 14:02:24 and 14:02:27 …which is most of it. 14:02:29 caches. 14:02:31 it compresses with gzip or something like that 14:02:37 /shrug 14:02:38 Kay then 14:02:43 ehird, dirty caches are flushed first 14:02:47 so it can drop all caches 14:02:48 iirc 14:02:56 when doing to disk that is 14:02:57 Eww, dirty caches. That's just bad hygiene. 14:03:04 ehird, dirty as in, buffers 14:03:07 not yet synced 14:03:12 with fsync() or such 14:08:10 suspend to both works in X though 14:08:13 just not from console 14:18:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:20:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:20:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:34:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:40:52 * ehird downloads the Windows 7 RC; VMWare Fusion 14:47:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:49:30 https://profile.microsoft.com/RegSysProfileCenter/… ;; No, microsoft, you cannot run your component on my OS X system. 14:49:36 It doesn't work that way. 14:57:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:57:59 What web browsers support the Windows 7 RC download experience? 14:57:59 Internet Explorer 7, Internet Explorer 8, and Firefox support the Windows 7 RC download experience. Please note that Internet Explorer 8 users behind a proxy server should use the automatic configuration for their proxy server for the best download experience. 14:58:02 …………………… 14:58:14 Switch to a new browser for the "Windows 7 RC download experience"! 14:58:16 Experience it! 14:58:25 …Watch exciting progress bars? 14:58:38 heh 14:58:53 …so how am I meant to download Windows 7 WITHOUT ALREADY HAVING WINDOWS? 15:00:40 so I'm going to try ubuntu instead. Hopefully it will work better out of box on this computer. Even though I will dislike it. 15:00:48 Here we go, a direct link. 15:00:53 I hope they have a live cd 15:00:58 AnMaster: They do, it's all they have. 15:01:02 so I can try it first without installing it 15:01:03 Get, of course, the 64-bit version. 15:01:13 AnMaster: IIRC it persists your settings too. 15:01:19 So you can make Gnome all fluffy and... non-dark... before installing. 15:01:35 ehird, is it cd or dvd? 15:01:39 CD. 15:01:41 and yes of course the 64 bit one 15:01:50 Yes. Considering you have 4GB of RAM... 15:02:45 AnMaster: btw, you also agreed with me yesterday 15:02:48 now you're trying Ubuntu 15:02:54 are you sure you're feeling okay? 15:03:02 I can check your forehead, you might have a fever... the UNIVERSE might have a fever... 15:03:39 ehird, only to see if it works better out of box here. Since I can't get sound to work under arch either for it. And it has so not *that* unusual. 15:03:55 still I hope it can handle encrypted home properly 15:03:56 and such 15:03:59 Yes, it can. 15:04:09 and all but /boot on lvm 15:04:11 Ubuntu will work perfectly out of the box on just about any machine, especially ThinkPads, as they're popular for Linux. 15:04:21 AnMaster: Well, you'll have to do some hacking with a chroot for that... 15:04:33 for ext4 too IIRC 15:04:35 AnMaster: I'd just encrypt the whole / 15:04:37 now if it only was rolling release 15:04:43 ehird, :/ 15:04:52 AnMaster: Eh, it'd work fine, no? 15:05:06 ehird, messier 15:05:14 AnMaster: But what if someone steals your /etc, dude? 15:05:20 Or your secret kernel? 15:05:30 hah 15:06:35 sure takes a long time to download... 15:06:37 AnMaster: It appears to be quite easy to do an "unencrypted /boot, encrypted /" partition dealie. 15:06:40 Also, pick another mirror. 15:06:46 I suggest Germany. 15:06:47 ehird, it is maxing out my connection :P 15:06:51 Ouch. 15:07:15 ehird, 697 MB large iso takes a bit 15:07:19 on most connections 15:07:26 AnMaster: it might be worth installing Ubuntu stock and migrating to encrypted later 15:07:28 since it's a bit fiddly 15:07:36 ehird, I'm not sure I will install it 15:07:42 I meant if you do decide to 15:07:50 it depends on if alsa and wireless and suspend to ram and so on works on the livecd or not 15:08:09 AnMaster: Almost certainly, although I'm not sure how suspend to RAM interacts with LiveCDs. 15:08:17 ehird, good point 15:08:19 Also, it'll be quite slow, because, y'know, CD. 15:08:27 ehird, of course 15:08:34 anyway I don't think the wlan will work properly 15:08:40 AnMaster: Oh? 15:08:43 Lemme tell you a story. 15:08:48 ehird, open bugs at kernel.org 15:08:49 that is why 15:08:55 ubuntu patch their kernel 15:08:57 Anyway, 15:09:19 ehird, also the devs doesn't know if it is the wlan driver or wpa_supplicant causing the issues. 15:09:25 or some combination 15:09:56 For my mother's computer, she bought a really cheap Phillips wireless USB dongle. Crappy plasticy-feeling thing, has terrible Windows drivers, never worked properly, etc. At one point, I installed Ubuntu on it for her, unplugged the ethernet, and plugged it in, expecting to have to do some hacking. The wireless icon appeared. I clicked it, selected a network, and it was connected. 15:09:58 it didn't even install any drivers 15:10:13 I'd wager that if a no-name USB WiFi adapter works without doing anything, ThinkPad wireless will too 15:10:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:10:23 good morning 15:10:28 good morning 15:10:35 ehird, yes indeed. And this wlan works very well usually. Even intel are behind it 15:10:42 it is just a bug 15:10:46 AnMaster: Yah. 15:10:53 Ubuntu backport an awful lot of fixes and the like, tho. 15:11:02 AnMaster: Good news. 15:11:03 Ext4 Howto - Ext4 15:11:03 Ubuntu 9.04 and later include ext4 as a manual partitioning option at installation time, including support for ext4 as the root filesystem. ... 15:11:08 ehird, it isn't fixed yet though. So unless they have a time machine? 15:11:29 So if you install it and want to encrypt it's still probably better to migrate later when you have a working system, but ext4 is just a click in a dropdown. 15:11:36 AnMaster: rolled back the breaking change? 15:11:56 they wouldn't ship a release that messes up common wifi 15:11:58 ehird, not a regression it seems. Rather it is an issue on very new chipsets. 15:12:05 hmm 15:12:08 welp, we'll see 15:12:31 ehird, if sound works however... 15:12:45 I'd be very, very surprised if Intel chipset sound didn't work immediately. 15:12:49 and well suspend to ram works. So does suspend to disk. Just not suspend to both 15:13:13 Oh, and Ubuntu comes with the BCI freetype OOTB, which is nice. 15:13:39 s/OOTB/out of the box/; can't be using confusing terminology now can we 15:14:08 ehird, ah got it to work under arch 15:14:14 had to unload and reload the module once 15:14:17 (huh?) 15:14:23 Well that's logical. 15:14:36 ehird, oh? 15:14:39 Sarcasm. 15:15:37 meanwhile, http://imgur.com/WkkQL.png 15:15:52 not very good quality speakers in it though. But meh, I have yet to see a laptop with good speakers 15:16:06 A laptop with good speakers is a laptop that doesn't fit on your lap and can't close. 15:16:20 Even this iMac's speakers take up the whole bottom grill. 15:16:23 Well, apart from a bit in the middle. 15:16:27 That's what you open to get at the RAM. 15:17:53 ehird, anyway I'm only going ubuntu then if wlan works without issues (there is an open bug in launchpad for it... not likely) and/or if suspend to ram, closing the lid and so on all works 15:18:19 wait nm that launchpad bug 15:18:21 So you only want it if it's perfect, not better? 15:18:25 that was for 11n network 15:18:26 :P 15:18:35 and I'm connecting to g 15:18:36 hm 15:18:40 well might be related 15:18:41 not sure 15:18:42 anyway 15:18:56 ehird, I was going to say that I might change anyway if things seem good enough 15:19:04 but now sound isn't a factor any more 15:19:19 ehird, where are the checksums for ubuntu isos 15:19:38 You actually check checksums? 15:19:45 Probably on some FTP somewhere. 15:19:47 ehird, for isos? yes definitely 15:20:20 ah found it 15:20:41 only md5? seriously wth 15:21:08 gpg signature would be best, but I at least expected sha256sums 15:23:12 I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself. 15:23:12 Yes, but you're the only one who cares… 15:23:26 fizzie: Maybe gamma rays corrupted the ISO to have a virus dood 15:23:29 In transit 15:23:42 It'll wipe all of AnMaster's valuable files on his laptop. 15:23:42 hm 15:23:44 He's had it for years, you know. 15:23:52 cd is marked as 700 MB, well should fit 15:23:54 Yes, well, a md5sum would detect accidental corruption just as well. 15:24:02 fizzie, not intentional though 15:24:02 AnMaster: Yes... all CDs are the same size... 15:24:08 ehird, I don't have any on the laptop yet 15:24:11 :P 15:24:21 But that's the thing. An MD5 is useless. 15:24:24 Yes, well, for intentional corruption they've obviously changed the checksums too; that's why I said "getting it from the same place". 15:24:30 It only detects "this is fucked up man", which happens WHEN YOU BOOT IT. 15:24:34 ehird, um... CDs used to be 650 MB IIRC? 15:24:34 Because they have CRCs in the bootloader thingy. 15:24:41 back long ago 15:24:54 CD-Rs at least 15:25:02 CD-ROM 15:25:02 Media typeOptical disc 15:25:03 Capacity184 MiB (8 cm) 15:25:05 650-900 MB (12 cm) 15:25:07 * ehird shrugs 15:25:10 MiB then MB? 15:25:11 Strange. 15:25:13 I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself. <-- I wasn't 15:25:19 CD-ROM capacities are normally expressed with binary prefixes, subtracting the space used for error correction data. A standard 120 mm, "700 MB" CD-ROM can hold about 847 MB of data, or 737 MB (703 MiB) with error correction. In comparison, a single-layer DVD-ROM can hold 4.7 GB of error-protected data, more than 6 CD-ROMs. 15:25:21 the checksum was listed on their website 15:25:25 not on the mirror 15:25:33 AnMaster: the website is owned by the mirror guys, duh 15:25:39 if they push out a change the other guys get it too 15:25:59 ehird, not the same mirror :P So a bit less risk *in theory* but yeah I would much have preferred a gpg signature 15:26:07 * AnMaster burns it 15:26:19 ETA: 31 minutes 15:26:25 Your CD drive sucks. 15:26:32 ehird, no the cds sucks 15:26:39 they seem to be limited to 8x 15:26:43 Oh. 15:26:45 some no-name cd 15:26:51 only one I had around 15:27:55 Well, cdimage.ubuntu.com's dvd images for karmic koala daily-builds have MD5, SHA1 and SHA256 checksums; I guess they're getting there. 15:31:05 LONDON — Harry Patch, the last soldier to fight in the trenches of Europe during World War I, died Saturday at the age of 111, his care home in southwest England said. 15:31:06 Patch, who fought at the Battle of Passchendaele in 1917, was also Britain's oldest man following the death of fellow veteran Henry Allingham, who was also the world's oldest man, one week ago. 15:31:14 the one before him lasted like two weeks 15:31:15 XD 15:33:42 ehird, ok I think I mostly got suspend working under arch too. Not perfectly but quite a lot better 15:33:55 ubuntu is still burning 15:34:00 Sure is a lot of work you're having to do there. 15:34:23 ehird, actually the system is missing from the "whitelist" 15:34:36 that s2ram uses 15:35:00 Racism. 15:35:07 ... 15:35:19 ^show source 15:35:19 (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S 15:35:30 ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot)S 15:35:30 Defined. 15:35:36 Might as well use that thing. 15:35:37 ^save 15:35:37 OK. 15:35:52 NOOOOOOOO! NOT GIT! 15:36:08 (Ew, it's gitweb.) 15:36:19 Hey, now, there was a package. 15:36:59 lawl 15:38:00 hm... hibernate-tools seems to work better 15:38:07 they have some thinkpad workaround 15:43:46 * AnMaster boots ubuntu 15:44:12 ehird, ah btw I found out what the sound problem actually was: a permission problem 15:44:21 o_x 15:44:21 user was not in right group, so my own faukt 15:44:23 fault* 15:44:40 solved it by: gpasswd -a anmaster audio 15:44:49 * AnMaster waits for ubuntu cd to boot 15:49:50 ehird, hm wireless works sometimes in arch too. a cold reboot often fixes the issue. So that it works means nothing. Needs more testing 15:50:34 Funny, would have suspected Ubuntu to grant audio-group access with the login.defs CONSOLE_GROUPS or some such mechanism for X logins. It doesn't sound the Ubuntu way to have users fiddle with that sort of stuff. 15:50:51 fizzie, that was on arch 15:50:51 He's doing it with Arch. 15:50:59 Ah. Well, that's another thing entirely. 15:51:01 anyway issue with ubuntu: 15:51:09 no LVM tools on livecd 15:51:11 it seems 15:51:14 Correct. 15:51:24 can't check if it works to mount then 15:51:26 As I said, if you want Ubuntu, it's really best just to go with /boot and /. 15:51:49 ehird, you mean then I don't want ubuntu? I see 15:52:07 You could also continue suffering through Arch if you want 15:52:32 it could use fuse! 15:52:41 What? 15:52:45 err 15:52:48 fuse + unionfs 15:52:53 ……for what? 15:52:55 was what I meant 15:53:01 ehird, to allow installing in the livecd env 15:53:03 ? 15:53:14 It does install in the LiveCD environment. 15:53:18 ... Seriously, if you're going to do a complex installation (like setting up LVM), use Debian. 15:53:20 oh interesting 15:53:23 To RAM. 15:53:28 pikhq: But he's on a _laptop_. 15:53:32 With a 160GB drive. Total. 15:53:42 He's only partitioning because he wants to encrypt /home. 15:53:43 ehird: So? 15:53:49 Because he doesn't want to encrypt / for some reason. 15:53:55 pikhq: I'm saying that anything but /boot & / is just silly 15:54:19 ... 15:54:56 ah there we go. lvm installed in tmpfs on livecd 15:55:07 seems like the livecd does use unionfs or such 15:55:49 I want the smooth, integrated, everything-just-works experience of Ubuntu. Now how do I tweak the installation process? 15:56:22 Note: use Debian if you want Ubuntu's "Just Works"™ but tweakable. 15:56:25 anyway it all depends on how livecd turns out 15:56:39 Given that that's pretty much what Debian is for desktop usage these days. 15:57:49 lets see if it can browse the file system on my phone 15:57:51 arch could 15:57:57 was painless there 15:58:23 pikhq: Said like someone who's never used Ubuntu. 15:58:26 Debian is, really, milse apart. 15:58:28 *miles 15:58:32 Ubuntu has a _ton_ of tweaks and integration. 15:58:50 ehird: Said like someone who's not used Debian since Ubuntu became popular. 15:59:45 No, I have. 15:59:52 I've _only_ used Debian since Ubuntu became popular. 15:59:58 Huh. 16:00:09 hm I got the "tap trackpoint to click" working in arch 16:00:10 You're highly underestimating the configuration and integration the Ubuntu team does. 16:00:22 doesn't work out of box and no setting in the mouse thingy for it under ubuntu 16:00:41 Debian is pretty damn tweaked from raw sources, and Ubuntu is pretty damn tweaked from Debian. 16:01:20 AnMaster: methinks you're going into ubuntu with the mindset of trying to find something wrong about it so you can quickly dismiss it… 16:01:25 at least it appears that way from hear 16:01:26 here 16:01:33 s/hear\nhere/here/ 16:01:44 ehird, I want to see if I will actually gain anything from it first 16:01:47 I here it that way from hear too ;) 16:01:54 * ehird mauls GregorR 16:02:08 ehird: I think we can both agree that he should be using a more tweakable distro if he's going to be tweaking his distro, though. ;) 16:02:29 Yes, but I also think that in this case, his tweaks are just making life hard for him within the restraints of his laptop. 16:02:49 LFS 16:02:49 Eh, it probably would be nicer to have an encrypted root. 16:02:53 LFS is the only distro worth using. 16:02:57 People who don't use LFS are losers. 16:03:01 I don't think Ubuntu handles *that* gracefully, either, though. 16:03:17 pikhq: That's not the thing, though 16:03:23 He wants LVM so he can resize /home and / 16:03:25 ? 16:03:28 Because the HD is small 16:03:30 so he can't anticipate 16:03:31 BUT 16:03:40 he only wants to separate /home and / so he can only encrypt the former 16:03:52 Since LVM is a pain on Ubuntu, I'm saying he should just encrypt / 16:03:56 Because it'd be a lot simpler. 16:04:08 ok found how to browse file system by bluethooth 16:04:10 spelling 16:04:23 I'm saying he should just use a different distro. LVM is nice. It should be used everywhere. :P 16:04:25 thooth :D 16:04:48 pikhq: If we're being idealistic, partitions for a single OS suck. 16:04:58 We should just have a partition per OS, and store objects on it instead of files. 16:05:05 And have an orthogonal persistence system. 16:05:07 And. And. And. 16:05:10 Meanwhile, back in reality. 16:05:37 ehird: If we're being idealistic, OSes should not suck. 16:05:38 ;) 16:05:41 Exactly. 16:06:12 closing lid did not suspend 16:06:17 hm 16:06:24 maybe a setting *looks* 16:06:49 ah yes 16:07:16 In an alternate universe: 16:07:21 Oh, just a package to emerge. 16:07:23 …and a few configuration files. 16:07:26 …and a kernel recompilation. 16:07:38 ehird, not likely 16:08:09 Yay, 5 minutes until Windows is downloaded. 16:08:13 (↑ Something I never thought I'd say) 16:08:46 haha 16:09:02 you can set how long it should be inactive for turning of the screen 16:09:10 you can't drag it below 11 minutes though 16:09:15 that is a bit weird/silly 16:09:27 :P 16:09:33 http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20090724/ ← Hahahaha. I see they've read http://xkcd.com/605/ 16:09:46 ehird, anyway, why 11 minutes in ubuntu 16:09:48 makes no sense 16:09:53 It… goes down to 11? 16:09:57 It might be a Gnome thing, also. 16:10:00 ehird, the slide bar yes 16:10:05 AnMaster: It's a joke. 16:10:07 Spinal Tap. 16:10:34 AnMaster: Anyway, probably they picked 10 full, complete minutes of idleness 16:10:42 And then when it hits the 11 minute (after 10 full minutes), it goes off. 16:10:42 ehird, as lower limit? hm 16:10:44 Or something. 16:10:59 It's rather arbitrary, but wanting it to go off after 5 minutes or something would be silly, so. 16:11:22 ehird, why should they prevent users from doing that? 16:11:57 my *phone* turns off backlight after 10 *seconds* or so 16:11:59 AnMaster: Because then the slider bar would be less granular because it would be the same size with bigger range 16:12:00 depends on what screen 16:12:05 And so 99% of people would suffer. 16:12:09 For the needs of a crazy 1%. 16:12:13 much faster when it displays the "press ... to unlock" 16:12:18 Those 1% can either use something else or use gconf-editor. 16:12:37 ehird, very.... gnomeish 16:12:47 maybe kubuntu would be better 16:12:48 Usability is stripping out everything unneeded or extremely unlikely and then presenting the rest as fluidly and quickly as possible. 16:13:04 If you want to abandon a usable interface because you can't set your sleep time to <11 minutes, uhh, feel free. 16:13:13 Strange how every critic of Gnome is such a control freak. 16:13:26 Yay, Windows 7 RC downloaded. 16:13:32 ehird, ...? I just dislike dumbed down systems 16:13:36 It's not dumbed down. 16:13:45 AnMaster: If we allow any amount of minutes. Why not seconds? 16:13:47 Why dumb it down? 16:13:54 What if I like my system to go off after precisely 3 minutes 14 seconds? 16:13:57 Milliseconds? 16:14:05 Your response is presumably "no, because that's ridiculous; who needs that?". 16:14:27 "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." 16:14:31 With a bit of rephrasing it's quite applicable here. 16:14:48 What if it's "yeah, the slider should have the same granularity as the kernel call that eventually uses the value" 16:15:10 Deewiant: Are you arguing that the user interface should be dictated by the internal code? 16:15:20 Please, please don't say yes. 16:15:29 No, by the limits of the underlying system. 16:15:41 Somewhat the same thing, I guess. 16:15:52 It is the same thing. 16:15:54 And I'm not really arguing it, just presenting a hypothetical. 16:16:04 Are you arguing for my point of AnMaster's? 16:16:06 I'm not sure where I really stand on the matter. 16:16:15 Mine is about being less specific than the underlying interface. 16:16:19 *underlying code 16:16:46 My point is, I guess: why restrict the UI if the code can do more 16:17:10 Deewiant: Because usability is ALL ABOUT figuring out the must natural and fluid way to present the realistic operations and optimising heavily for them. 16:17:33 That may get you extreme precision to flex your system abs; it doesn't get you a simple, usable, consistent interface vs a mass of sluggish knick-knacks. 16:17:46 There are, of course, compromises. I find they rarely matter in practice, and those that do tend to be bugs. 16:17:55 Heh. 16:19:53 ehird, same wlan issues on ubuntu after suspending a few times btw... 16:19:54 :/ 16:20:02 AnMaster: Freaky chipset, I guess. 16:20:05 Nothing you can really do. 16:20:32 File a bug somewhere. 16:20:35 a slide bar should just be an input hole waiting for a value, you should be able to insert your own gadget in there if you want more precision. 16:20:38 Deewiant, there is already one 16:20:45 Then wait until it's fixed. 16:20:47 err, a slide bar should just be the default filler for the hole, that is 16:20:54 oklopol: that basically meshes with my OO OS design, yah 16:21:08 but it handles it far more elegantly than just making a gigantic slider 16:21:37 ehird: have you seen tangible functional programming or whatever at google talks? i've had very similar ideas, and found some of it rather interesting 16:21:47 I think I've heard the general concept 16:22:00 I think that Smalltalk is basically close to the perfect model 16:22:34 I am vaguely of the opinion that there needs to be a strongly typed OS. 16:22:37 :P 16:22:57 See http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/'s Dana. 16:23:07 and IΞ 16:23:20 Strongly-typed, purely functional, dependently typed, FRP programming language & OS. 16:23:26 ehird, but yeah I might do gnome on arch (as a test) 16:23:28 <3 16:23:29 (vaporware) 16:23:33 to compare with ubuntu 16:23:36 Aaaw. 16:23:42 If it weren't vaporware, then <3. 16:23:44 basically interfaces are just ways to visualize objects, and interaction is done with functions, say a program where you can rotate a pic would be a function from reals to pics to rotated pics, which would be represented as an input box for a real and an input and an output box for function output for those inputs. 16:23:48 AnMaster: Ubuntu's Gnome is generally a better Gnome because of the added integration 16:24:06 *and an input box for the pix 16:24:07 *pic 16:24:17 ehird, that is possible. Why not push the patches upstream? 16:24:25 some at least 16:24:32 AnMaster: because they integrate Gnome with the OS and their own cherry-picked services 16:24:36 instead of just with each other 16:24:38 hm ok 16:24:43 but Gnome is really about the total-system integration 16:24:47 yes, a lot could be pushed upstream 16:25:02 oklopol: method rotate: on BitmapImage, give it a number of any kind 16:25:07 ehird: It would also be totally awesome to have an arrow-and-monad-based CLI. 16:25:29 you could e.g. tell BitmapEditor to add a rotate button to the toolbar 16:25:30 Of course, designing something like that is actual work. 16:25:31 that invokes that 16:25:32 and the like 16:25:36 it's all about views on objects 16:25:42 you can manipulate objects, and have views on them 16:25:51 which are ways of visualising and manipulating the object 16:25:57 no programs, just views and methods aggregated from everywhere 16:27:27 pretty much the platonic ideal of what an OS should be, implemented 16:27:45 Sounds like KDE on crack. 16:27:56 representing and changing arbitrary things in any way 16:28:02 pikhq: sort of 16:28:22 http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/HDAPS#How_to_install_the_driver <-- aha 16:28:25 that is why it doesn't work 16:28:28 ehird: Well, since that's basically what KDE does (sort-of) for its GUI code. 16:28:35 ehird: tfp does that, and adds automatic interface composition to function composition 16:28:37 ehird, please take a look at that section 16:28:39 well not exactly that 16:28:39 pikhq: Similar. 16:28:42 But, of course, they don't touch the underlying system aside from abstraction layers. 16:28:44 then tell me what will be easiest 16:28:45 oklopol: automatic interface composition? 16:28:46 like 16:28:48 because it's purely functional 16:28:49 doing that under arch or ubuntu 16:28:49 but anyway 16:28:50 ehird, ^ 16:28:54 foo : thingthatCanRotate -> thingthatCanFly -> 16:28:57 because it doesn't work under ubuntu either 16:28:57 thingthatcanrotateandfly? 16:29:00 they didn't prepatch it 16:29:25 ehird: you can have a rotator and a scaler, and you can fuse ones output to the other's input to have a component that does both 16:29:49 AnMaster: ubuntuforums.org 16:29:51 search the howto section 16:29:53 you should check out the talk, it has interesting ideas 16:29:54 there'll be an easy way 16:30:01 oklopol: well right, that's trivial 16:30:17 ehird: trivial maybe, but your ideal smalltalk model doesn't do it 16:30:19 oklopol: use a rotator view on a BitmapImage 16:30:26 oklopol: then use a scaler view on the rotator's image 16:30:37 voila 16:30:40 well true. 16:30:53 you could easily abstract it 16:30:57 same thing relly 16:30:59 *realy 16:31:01 yeah 16:31:01 fuck 16:31:02 *really 16:31:10 I just think the object analogy works better for an OS 16:31:21 i guess the point is just to have outputs and inputs be objects you can actually move around however you want. 16:31:28 first-classity 16:31:34 oklopol: but yeah, you the essential components are objects, their methods, and views 16:31:46 where the views are what let you interact, compose etc the objects and act on their methods 16:32:06 ehird: Just make it be strongly typed and we're good. :P 16:32:13 and yes, object analogies work better for oses, this was more of an application/ui designer stuff; or maybe it's just the fact the developers were haskellers 16:32:17 pikhq: i'm not sure 16:32:25 pikhq: typeclasses burden the system's fluidity 16:32:35 you should be able to make up new types of images on the go and piece together things in unexpected ways 16:32:43 instead of the more rigid typeclass system 16:32:45 ehird: Hmm. 16:32:59 pikhq: you could, of course, do things like implement methods in Haskell 16:33:12 and entire subsystems 16:33:26 but i think the top-level object system is more liberating with a duck-OO system 16:33:33 * pikhq is more-or-less imagining using typeclasses to make an OS provably secure via a typechecker 16:33:47 Cute. 16:33:59 huh 16:34:18 bash: /sbin/iwconfig: Input/output error 16:34:20 Dammit Windows. 16:34:25 file says it doesn't exist either 16:34:30 as in, not readable 16:34:38 I've had this VM for a few *days* and it's got viruses. 16:35:03 And it's ran for maybe a few hours. 16:36:35 i've used windows all my life, and i've had one virus 16:37:01 which was completely my own fault 16:37:07 ... It... Came in the service pack? 16:37:12 i don't really use protection 16:37:14 ... Infecting notepad.exe? 16:37:16 no, i opened an exe 16:37:23 that had a virus 16:37:33 oklopol: don't use protection ay? 16:37:34 lots of babies! 16:37:36 virus babies 16:37:45 "vabies" 16:38:04 for sex, i make my partners use protection; for computers, that's kinda too much work. 16:38:34 anyway, i guess i have some virus protection now 16:38:38 not that i ever let it actually run 16:39:01 maybe it does some checking transparently, i don't really have the faintest 16:39:37 haha the safari 4.0.2 update is 40.2MB 16:40:55 so oklopol 16:41:04 yeeeesh 16:41:11 naked piano huh 16:41:29 needs more naked and less piano. 16:41:34 also, you should play some philip glass. 16:41:56 wuzzat 16:42:02 philip glass is a composer. 16:42:09 well, i got that. 16:42:16 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=philip+glass&search_type=&aq=f 16:42:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNiOqa1nWgI&feature=fvst << SO true 16:43:16 why should i play it? 16:43:20 because you like it? 16:43:22 because its pretty! 16:43:53 omg that video is so true 16:44:20 yes, i noticed 16:44:24 oh fun... ubuntu's network manager crashed even 16:44:26 ehird, ^ 16:44:29 listened to 5 seconds of one of his songs, and that. 16:44:31 :P 16:44:41 happened to be the same thing 16:45:22 hm seems older wpa_supplicant might work 16:45:24 going to try 16:45:40 does he say "b minor"? 16:46:43 and e minor 16:46:59 oklopol omg 16:47:01 1. that's one of the most used progressions in all western music 16:47:01 watch that video 16:47:10 its literally ALL of philip glass in one video 16:47:11 i love it 16:47:29 but the he doesn't know names of chord 16:47:31 *s 16:47:36 *-.sadfoadfig 16:47:38 *he 16:49:40 torley is a silly man :D 16:50:21 anyway, he is correct in that glass seems to be kinda trivial music 16:50:26 ambience 16:50:34 well the thing about glass's music is not that its complex so much 16:50:35 ambient is not trivial 16:50:51 its that its got a lot of structure 16:51:18 ehird: most is. 16:51:26 not 16:51:55 if the notes of mozart's piano pieces are a random walk, then the notes of philip glass's piano pieces are a fractal 16:52:33 all i'm saying is that kinda stuff is trivial to compose 16:52:41 its like good trance, if you look at a small interval, and then look later at another interval of the same size, youll see a lot of similarity. its only when you pull out that you see the structure 16:52:55 oklopol, maybe it is. but it doesnt seem to be. 16:53:19 i mean, while torley gets a lot of the glassian style correct, at a low level, the 3-to-20 note level, on a larger scale he fails 16:54:05 only when you pull out ey 16:54:08 ONLY WHEN YOU PULL OUT 16:54:27 i think philip glass's style is less about the complexities of the initial writing of the music, so much as the complexities of making it all work together locally and globally 16:54:33 its like a canon, i think 16:54:34 i wonder, if you don't use virus protection, is pulling out cancelling the bogus install process? 16:54:40 the motif of a canon isnt necessarily complicated 16:54:47 nor are the principles of canon construction 16:55:03 and yet canons are still amazingly difficult to do right 16:55:22 i suspect that canons are probably some of the easiest music to compose with a computer, tho 16:55:42 because its mostly just constraint programming 16:56:09 who was it that was all "wee computer music! :D"? 16:56:10 gregorr? 16:56:12 GregorR! 16:56:31 augur: the details of the chords are interesting. melody is trivial, and chord progressions are basically copy pasted from all pop ever made. 16:56:41 is my opinion on first listening 16:56:42 http://codu.org/algorhythms/ 16:56:57 oklopol: its not just chord progressions tho 16:57:05 by details of the chords i mean the arpeggios 16:57:14 the thing about glass's music is that its chord progression progressions 16:57:20 and chord progression progression progressions 16:57:28 and so forth 16:57:39 you mean the whole structure? i'm not especially interested in those, so yeah i maybe not be the best judge either, but didn't seem special in any way. 16:58:01 you have to listen to actual philip glass music tho 16:58:05 not just torley's thing 16:58:12 i mostly do short riffs, that's why i like metal. 16:58:20 its a lot like japanese music as well 16:58:30 in principle, anyway 16:58:36 Yeah, that was me. 16:58:46 i wasn't listening to torley 16:58:46 traditional japanese music isnt about the complexity of the pieces or the local complexity of the notes 16:58:53 oklopol: well then! 16:58:59 GregorR: do you do canons? 16:59:36 Well, virus is t3h fixéd. Just pulled notepad.exe from the Windows ISO... 17:00:41 augur: My algorhythms have no concept of "styles" of music. 17:00:45 well 17:00:51 you should try to write a canon writing program 17:01:05 Canons suck though :P 17:01:19 nuu 17:01:25 also, theyre awesomely algorithmic 17:01:55 'struth 17:02:05 i have no idea what canons are 17:02:16 oklopol 17:02:29 unless you mean the thing where the a melody is played on top of itself 17:02:35 yes and no 17:02:39 that's what it meant when i sang in a choir. 17:02:43 its not simply a melody on top of itself 17:02:52 there should be a satanist choir 17:02:55 thats a fugue, of sorts. 17:03:00 a canon is like a fugue on speed 17:03:05 in canons, you have a motif 17:03:12 can't go wrong with speed 17:03:16 that gets duplicated multiply, usually. 17:03:26 you play it once normally 17:03:35 then play it again, maybe offset in time 17:03:43 offset in time? 17:03:44 argh i can't spawn new processes 17:03:51 sounds weird. 17:03:57 yes, like you start playing a few notes later relative to the first instance 17:03:59 how do you kill something if you can't spawn a process? AnMaster? 17:04:03 like the row-row-row-your-boat fugue 17:04:03 well 17:04:06 i can spawn a shell 17:04:13 augur: original still playing you mean? 17:04:18 wait 17:04:19 yes 17:04:19 ps doesn't terminate 17:04:20 wtf 17:04:25 right, then it's not weird. 17:04:28 or you offset it in pitch, so you play it twice at different pitches 17:04:35 or you play it upside down 17:04:48 so where the notes transition up in the original, they transition down in the copy 17:04:50 err, you mean a chromatic transposition or in scale? 17:04:58 uh.. either! i dont know 17:05:02 or you play it backwards 17:05:08 or you play it twice speed 17:05:09 or half speed 17:05:23 or you combine these together 17:05:28 and you do it multiple times 17:05:38 i did your mom 17:05:40 multiple times 17:05:55 so the motif is being played three, four, five times upside down backwards twice as fast, etc etc 17:06:25 and because of the combinations, you end up getting chords, usually 17:06:44 so you ALSO strive to achieve chord progressions that are, by themselves, quite elegant and beautiful 17:06:48 my process is often similar to that, after which i find a local optimum by moving the individual notes a bit, while keeping some local structure consistent 17:06:53 mmmmm i love my songs 17:06:59 so that the different instances of the motif, by themselves, are beautiful 17:06:59 * oklopol listens 17:07:13 as are the combination of them taken as a whole 17:07:34 augur: sounds awesome. 17:07:37 Bach is probably the most famous canonier 17:07:46 and fuguer 17:07:57 fugues tho, afaik, are usually simple canons with a time offset 17:08:46 and ofcourse you can have secondary motifs 17:08:50 and tertiary motifs 17:08:51 and so forth 17:09:30 the trick to writing canons and fugues is having a single motif that sounds good multiple ways 17:09:36 and which also combines with itself elegantly 17:10:25 REALLY good fugues, in my opinion, are structured so that the single motif, plus its permutations, combine in such a way that the combination itself has complex structure that isn't obvious form just the motif 17:10:58 permutations huh 17:11:06 e.g. maybe there's a crescendo halfway through the piece, but no motif has a crescendo 17:12:10 i'm only interested in rhythm and pitch, but i get it. 17:12:37 GregorR: interesting local structures in these algorhythms or yours 17:13:02 this is why i think that canons are perfect for an algorithmic treatment 17:13:29 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:13:43 the motifs have to be good by themselves 17:13:43 there was one pretty interesting thing in that one song of yours, but i couldn't quite make the details out from your playing, i think it was number 10, that thing where you bang the piano like an elephant. 17:13:54 and the chord progressions their combination produces also has to be good 17:13:55 ehird: Isn't kill a builtin 17:14:02 but you know, an elephant that knows how to play 17:14:06 and making it all fit is IDEAL for a constraint programming system 17:14:42 augur: no disagreement there 17:15:43 canons and fugues themselves have relative simply underlying principles 17:15:53 Deewiant: yes, but I didn't know the process ID 17:15:55 motif + variations 17:16:03 much like philip glass's music 17:16:15 oh, oklopol, i left out some versions 17:16:17 GregorR: do you publish score? 17:16:20 ehird: for i in $(seq 1 65535); do kill -9 $i; done 17:16:24 You'll hit it eventually 17:16:36 Deewiant: i did that by holding down the power button 17:16:40 in canons sometimes youll get the motif shifting around by some notes here or there 17:16:47 and the shifts of the motif itself play out the motif 17:17:02 ehird: With a bit of luck the pid of the target process is lower than the pid of your shell 17:17:03 * ehird waits for disk to settle down then restarts VM 17:17:11 because of self-symmetries 17:17:19 Deewiant: yes but otoh all my other shit was below. 17:17:20 And nothing else important has a pid lower than your shell 17:17:22 :-) 17:17:24 so that the motif might be a progression of notes 1234 17:17:44 and then you play it again, but shifting the first note of the motif to start at the second note 17:17:47 so now its 2345 17:17:49 ehird: Run important stuff as root so that you don't kill them accidentally! 17:17:56 augur: er it's 2341 17:17:57 you mean 17:17:58 no 17:18:15 what's 5 17:18:21 ehird: transposition, not rotation, methinkg 17:18:22 *thinks 17:18:28 yeah 17:18:36 * GregorR reappears. 17:18:39 or if it were more complex, 12324, then 23435, then 34546, then 23435, then 45657 17:18:50 where the first note of each of the instances itself plays out the motif 17:18:51 oklopol: http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata%20Piano%20Arr.pdf 17:18:56 1...2...3...2...4 17:19:04 GregorR: that's 10? 17:19:27 so its a progression of instances of the motif 17:19:35 and the progression itself plays the motif 17:19:41 http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.{mid,mp3,ogg} since that one isn't on the Algorhythms site. 17:19:46 or maybe it plays a permutation of the motif 17:19:49 actually i can make out the melody now 17:19:50 hmm. 17:19:52 GregorR: he means op.10 17:19:53 * GregorR disappears again. 17:19:53 i think 17:20:18 ehird: does that make sense? 17:20:26 i didn't pay attention 17:20:30 :| 17:20:37 -!- jix has joined. 17:20:57 you still haven't told me where note 5 comes from 17:21:04 1234 → 2345; what's 5 17:21:12 i just said! :| 17:21:15 ok 17:21:18 you did not 17:21:19 so you have your motif 17:21:19 GregorR: what ehird said, when you come back. 17:21:26 what is the motif 17:21:27 1234?\ 17:21:30 M = 12324, lets say 17:21:33 s/\\$// 17:21:47 M[i] is the i'th note of the motif 17:21:57 indexing at 0 17:21:59 so M[2] = 3, 17:22:03 and so forth 17:22:24 right, so not transposition 17:22:31 well it IS transposition 17:22:34 its just complicated 17:22:50 do we consider the motif an infinite repetition of the same thing 17:22:52 the i'th copy of the motif is transposed by M[i] 17:23:03 so the 0th copy of the motif is 12324, say 17:23:16 so its not transposed at all 17:23:27 the 1th copy is 23435 17:23:54 and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed 17:24:16 only as structure, atonality is a newer concept 17:24:44 -!- augur_ has joined. 17:24:59 grr 17:25:01 sorry, storm, power outages, you know. 17:25:07 anyway, so the first copy is 23435 17:25:19 17:23 oklopol: and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed 17:25:20 17:24 oklopol: only as structure, atonality is a newer concept 17:25:30 because the second note of the motif is 2. so you start the motif at 2, but follow the same progressions 17:25:45 so the motive is transposed up one note 17:25:56 GregorR: What, exactly, does your libc consist of? 17:26:00 (in winelf) 17:26:05 augur_: *motif, not motive 17:26:07 then the third copy starts at the third note of the motif 17:26:09 and so forth 17:26:09 GregorR: the thing starting from 6:34 has the "*.***.*.*.*.*." rhythm in the beginning, i like it. 17:26:11 brbrbrbrb 17:27:46 augur: transposed withing used non-chromatic scale that is? 17:29:20 that is, if the motif is say 02357230, would its transposition one up be 13468341 or 23578352 17:29:33 ehird, is there any way to try out compiz on the live cd? 17:29:41 AnMaster: go into appearances preferences 17:29:42 visual effects 17:29:43 and choose Normal 17:29:51 (Extra makes resizing warble and shit; just looks terrible) 17:29:52 ehird, it is at that already 17:29:54 a chromatic transposition means you need to make sure every note happens to drop on the same scale 17:29:57 AnMaster: you're using compiz 17:30:02 assuming we're using some western scale underneath 17:30:10 AnMaster: e.g. minimizing/maximizing/window shadows 17:30:14 ehird, well I want to see rotating 3D cube desktop 17:30:20 or isn't that compiz? 17:30:28 AnMaster: it is, but now i want to stab yo. 17:30:29 you. 17:30:35 you who always hates bling :) 17:30:46 AnMaster: i think you need to install a plugin and shit 17:30:48 ehird, yes I do. But I want to see how bad it looks 17:30:55 not really worth it 17:31:10 * pikhq , intrigued, wgets Cygwin to play with 17:31:30 pikhq: run cygwin under wine 17:31:33 then run wine under cygwin 17:31:36 repeat until you die 17:31:38 ... Cygwin source code. 17:31:41 ehird: Hahah. 17:31:52 (of alcohol poisoning?) 17:32:25 alcohol poisoning, n. Using so many Windows programs under WINE that you have all the disadvantages of a Windows desktop, but on Linux. 17:32:31 back 17:32:39 so yeah 17:33:14 * pikhq intends to get CygwinELF. 17:33:32 oklopol: i have no idea precisely how the scales work 17:33:37 augur: anyway, whether glass is crap or not, it's definitely pretty much the opposite of what i enjoy playing. 17:33:47 oklopol: ok. 17:33:49 pikhq: cygwin isn't like 17:33:50 link compatible 17:33:56 so you'll still have to recompile 17:34:06 also linux syscalls 17:34:12 ehird: I'm getting the source tarball. 17:34:15 augur: basically you have the octave split in 12 equal steps, and there are certain subsets of those that are called scales 17:34:17 I mean the prorgams 17:34:18 programs 17:34:21 not cygwin itself 17:34:26 in bach's day, you always stayed withing the scale afaik 17:34:26 it'd be interesting to try and generate transpose canons using a CFG 17:34:33 And, like, CygwinELF would be, like, WinELF'd Cygwin. 17:34:33 atonality means using all 12 17:34:38 roughly 17:34:41 pikhq: i think cygwin might do things like mess around with internal PE stuff 17:34:44 so it might not work 17:34:50 (Windows still uses PE, right?) 17:34:55 ehird: Thus why I'm getting the source tarball to look at. 17:35:00 Right. 17:35:00 And yes, it does still use PE. 17:35:01 oklopol: one of bach's canons never ends, technically 17:35:06 99% expanderated! 17:35:41 Updating! 17:35:42 Wow. 17:35:46 It's updating while installing. 17:35:48 That's cool. 17:35:50 Less rebootifying. 17:35:55 the whole canon is a motif that ends on the same note it began, but one octave higher 17:35:59 augur: major is 024579(11)(12), minor is 02357(8|9)(10|11)(12), | because there are multiple kinds of minors. 17:36:08 and traditionally its looped, getting higher and higher and higher 17:36:11 you can try that out on the chromatic scale starting from any note 17:36:12 until you give up 17:36:15 should recognize them 17:36:18 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:36:43 augur: sounds like fun. 17:36:47 it is. 17:36:59 check out bach's Musical Offering, and Well Tempered Clavier 17:37:06 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:37:17 Setup is updating registry settings 17:37:18 oh, and then there are versions of the motif where extra notes are added 17:37:19 …IN BED 17:37:21 or some notes are removed 17:37:36 basically any way you can alter the motif 17:39:06 Looks like all cygwin process spawning goes through the spawn function. 17:39:36 ehird, it seems http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Tp_smapi is the key 17:39:48 You're smapi. 17:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:40:28 Which, though very complex, doesn't seem to be doing anything really funky with the executable. 17:40:40 Just a lot of Windows API junk. 17:41:42 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 17:41:55 -!- jix has joined. 17:46:14 GregorR: So, all Cygwin program execution eventually goes through spawn_guts. 17:46:28 GregorR: This is where the processes are actually created and loaded. 17:47:51 In principle, you could just add another code path that loads ELF executables via elfloader rather than the Win32 process loader. 17:48:07 This would be tricky but entirely feasible. 17:48:57 i think you could write a transpose canon generator 17:49:04 that works using a CFG, essentially 17:49:06 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 17:49:17 or something roughly like a CFG 17:50:04 e.g. M = 1 2 3 2 4 | 1*M 2*M 3*M 2*M 4*M 17:50:58 so basically "1 2 3 2 4" * 12^n :P 17:51:03 well no 17:51:08 i know what you meant 17:51:19 because you dont have to go the same depth for each M on the right hand side 17:51:24 well not exactly, that was actually something you didn't answer 17:51:27 maybe the first one is just 1 2 3 2 4 17:51:32 hmm 17:51:46 but the second is 1 2 3 2 4 2 3 4 3 5 3 4 5 4 6 2 3 4 3 5 4 5 6 5 7 17:51:58 so its M^2, lets call it 17:52:05 and maybe the third is M^3 17:52:07 and the fourth is M^2 17:52:11 and the fifth is M^4 17:52:18 so the depth ITSELF is the motif! 17:53:29 ehird, getting the disk protection to work was easier in arch once I knew where to look. While it is known broken in ubuntu 17:53:32 (atm) 17:53:43 You know that I don't care how much you hate Ubuntu, right? 17:53:50 ehird, ubuntu is nice 17:53:52 I agree 17:53:55 Uh huh. 17:54:14 ehird, but it also has downsides. Like arch does too 17:54:26 I'm atm trying to figure out if it is easier to fix the issues in arch now or not 17:54:45 due to the issue with network in ubuntu too I don't think I would gain much 17:54:51 :/ 17:55:25 Long-term you would; i.e. integrated desktop environment. 17:55:52 ehird, yes maybe 17:56:01 I shall consider this more. 17:56:04 Hey, "ls" works in PowerShell. Neat. 17:56:12 ehird, old 17:56:40 Windows 7 is doubleplusgood so far. 17:57:58 augur: true, torley sucks at structure 17:58:02 AnMaster: btw, if you want good fonts, go into Appearance settings, Fonts, Advanced, RGB, Slight, and DPI = 129 dpi 17:58:04 then close it 17:58:49 but i'm sure something like a 1212343 would fool you into thinking it's a rich structure (one of the basic western song structures) 17:59:24 AnMaster: might take a minute or two to get used to but i'm sure you'll see the light. 17:59:32 oklopol: maybe! 18:00:02 * AnMaster looks at hdaps... not making sense 18:00:13 i need a way to output sound from ruby :| 18:00:21 augur: bloopsaphone, bitch! 18:00:23 It's why. 18:00:25 1 = verse, 2 = some kinda build-up, 3 = "chorus", 4 = something interesting and surprising 18:00:33 or to throw numbers into a midi thing 18:00:33 Windows 7's taskbar > OS X Dock 18:00:33 was the idea here 18:00:40 if only this thing were built on top of posix 18:00:46 *was 18:00:47 ehird, again X under ubuntu guessed on 128 dpi 18:00:50 which is very close 18:00:55 anyway 18:00:58 AnMaster: yeah, but 129 is slightly better :P 18:01:05 atm I'm trying to make sense of hdaps 18:01:11 Why 129 18:01:16 Deewiant: 168.6 18:01:18 er 18:01:21 128.6 18:01:29 Whence 128.6 18:01:30 if you entered it with the dot into the font panel it'd round up anyway 18:01:33 Deewiant: ppi calculator 18:01:52 (which gets all the other displays I tested in it right, so) 18:02:25 also torley doesn't get the local structures at all correct, all he does is know a few chord progressions and a few trivial arpeggios 18:02:38 you're a trivial arpeggio oklopol 18:02:39 OH SNAP 18:02:51 I got an 87 18:03:04 glass' progressions don't seem to be that basic 18:03:07 Deewiant: sheesh, even windows defaults to a higher dpi than your display! 18:03:11 also X11, which is 80sware 18:03:12 but dunno, i'm more of a melody dude 18:03:18 ehird: no YOU 18:03:19 shoppe -> 18:03:30 * ehird watches his VM window spastically resize more than once a second 18:03:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 18:03:36 I think those drivers were bad. 18:03:45 I'm using 96 DPI 18:03:49 Oh, there we go. 18:03:53 Deewiant: the default. 18:03:55 Yep 18:04:23 yay, the drivers appear to work now 18:04:28 windows 7 startup sound is nice 18:04:30 not obnoxious 18:04:50 * ehird turns on airy aero 18:05:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:05:32 ehird what 18:05:41 your MOM 18:05:48 oh snappe 18:05:50 whats bloopsaphone 18:06:01 google it bitch 18:06:08 im on the github now 18:06:59 hm. ill have to figure out how to calculate notes from numbers D: 18:11:00 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:11:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:11:19 oklopol 18:12:30 http://pastie.org/558757 play this 18:16:23 lol 18:16:44 :) 18:17:00 its the 12324 recursively generated to a depth determined by the motif itself 18:17:03 the numbers are notes on what scale? 18:17:13 any scale of your choosing 18:19:02 oklopol: 'fraid not ... I could whip one up if desired ... I compose on the piano, then hypothetically write the score, but by the time I'm partway through writing it I hate what I've written to much and abandon the notion. 18:19:15 *too much 18:19:47 right 18:20:38 anyway, i can in fact hear what you're doing there, i remembered incorrectly dat. not that i wouldn't like seeing the score anyway 18:21:56 i like windows 7 18:22:30 augur_: sounds pretty crappy on a minor scale :P 18:22:38 :P 18:22:45 the motif is shit, so.. 18:22:47 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 18:24:18 of course if you listen to it as a 5/4 melody, you'll hear... well, how it was generated 18:24:49 as a 4/4 melody, it does do interesting stuff, but only until the progression in 5/4 changes differently than a 4/4 should've. 18:25:44 i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4 18:26:03 oklopol: please to record 18:26:04 so that this transposes the whole thing 18:26:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:26:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:26:16 well not transposes, but it makes it fit the chord progression 18:26:17 err 18:26:30 well i can record it the same way i recorded the last, only now i have my clothes on. 18:26:39 also need to go to the shoppe first 18:27:19 http://www.takimag.com/article/is_obamania_over/ ;; obama strongly supports rainbows; pedobear 18:32:33 I wonder why my Windows 7 VM is faster than the host at doing things. 18:41:26 http://www.takimag.com/images/gallery/BHORainbowBear2_med.jpg This is almost too hilarious for words :P 18:45:19 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 18:45:59 GregorR: See above, where I linked it :P 18:46:03 I wonder how it got there 18:46:10 The journalist is a boring old... curmudgeon from the looks of it. 18:46:18 Hax0red? Seriously didn't know? 18:46:21 Is the coolest old person ever? 18:46:21 WHO KNOWS 18:46:27 Yeah, Idonno, it's just too hilarious for words :P 18:46:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:46:42 Obama's platform consisted of hope, change, rainbows and child rape. 18:46:45 -!- augur has joined. 18:47:00 augur: you missed the child rape 18:47:06 how so 18:47:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki.Picture_by_Drawing_Machine_2.jpg 18:47:17 18:46 augur has left IRC (Remote closed the connection) 18:47:17 ((CHILD RAPE)) 18:47:20 18:46 augur has joined (n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) 18:47:42 I live in a giant bucket. 18:47:47 augur: that image looks distinctly non-free. 18:48:14 distinctly non-free? 18:48:22 hm wait 18:48:23 This work of art is distributed under the Free Art license. You are free to redistribute it and/or modify it according to terms of this license. ArtLibre.org 18:48:26 i just read 18:48:27 All images belong to Desmond Paul Henry's estate of which I, Elaine O'Hanrahan, am an executrice. 18:48:37 ((executrice is an obnoxious word)) 18:48:49 gregorr 18:48:53 `define executrice 18:48:54 No output. 18:48:56 have you looked at generative music theory? 18:49:01 Nope 8-D 18:49:07 you should 18:49:12 I am a PL researcher :P 18:49:14 theres been a fair amount of research into it 18:49:16 thats ok 18:49:23 lots of GM theory is just formal language theory 18:49:25 with musical notes. 18:49:28 instead of symbols. 18:49:31 TRUE MOGULS THAT FLY / 18:49:36 Lerdahl, F. and R. Jackendoff. 1982. A generative theory of tonal music. Cambridge, Mass: MIT Press. 18:49:37 auauauauauuum 18:49:42 TRUE MOGULS THAT DIE / 18:49:43 both Lerdal and Jackendoff are linguists 18:49:44 auauauauauaum 18:49:46 I am a mogul. 18:50:00 a nomadic mogul? 18:50:02 Have I mentioned that I'm basically on crack? 18:50:05 or are you a mugal? 18:50:12 ehird, we couldve guessed 18:50:22 You could have sexed 18:50:27 BUT THE FLOR EVAPORATED 18:50:29 * augur sexes 18:50:41 WARP TO 11 18:50:45 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ un warp 18:50:55 warp 11?! 18:51:02 Locale and the debts. 18:51:04 but thats faster than the fastest warp factor! 18:51:04 Locale and the debts. 18:51:09 Debts and the locale. 18:51:13 Locale debts are in the debt locale 18:51:15 augur: NO 18:51:17 IS ONE FASTER 18:51:24 BEACUSE OF NIGEL UFCKING TUFNEL, SPACE PIRATE 18:51:29 GASP 18:51:51 http://gigapedia.com/items/199498/composing-music-with-computers--music-technology- 18:51:52 baited breath??? MORE LIKE bAIT YOUR DEATH 18:51:55 BE EXTREME WITH EXTREMENESS 18:51:59 EXTREME 100% EXTREME 18:52:01 X-TREAM 18:52:03 EX-STREAM 18:52:25 i used that pun the other day :o 18:52:32 them's the rules by which THEM'S THE DROOLS 18:52:37 BY DROOLS I MEAN DROOLERS 18:52:42 AND NOT DE RULERS 18:52:43 WHICH IS THE RULERS 18:53:58 http://www.withinwindows.com/2009/07/16/downloading-another-browser-in-e-without-a-browser-in-3-steps/ ← windows 7 doesn't actually lack ie 18:53:59 just iexplore.exe 18:54:05 (in EU) 18:57:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:58:45 o 18:58:50 ø 18:59:06 lol 18:59:15 løl 19:01:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:02:22 movie 19:05:10 that new language on the wiki just rolls off the tongue, practically 19:07:48 * oerjan is not immensely convinced of its esotericity 19:08:01 nor i 19:08:45 Well, with a name like that, it has to be! 19:08:51 Who would use such a thing 19:09:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:11:49 I would make a comment on the talk page, but the evil body snatching gnomes inside my body appear to veto it. 19:11:54 Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling looks ... well, entirely based on assembly ... 19:11:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:12:02 Like, to the point that it's just a form of assembly. 19:12:12 BUT ASSEMBLY IS HARD HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR 19:12:27 had to move the computer to record, but i have a snippet now 19:12:38 forgot there was no battery in 19:13:07 the piece is so slow it'sh 19:13:12 *hard to play under panic 19:13:25 which cams do to me 19:15:39 err he isn't here huh 19:15:40 right 19:15:56 who isn't here? 19:16:05 augur 19:16:27 indeed he disappeared 15 minutes ago 19:17:14 does he read logs 19:17:36 heckifiknow 19:17:41 although i guess i can paste this one if pasted the last one 19:17:45 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv 19:17:54 although it's significantly worse played 19:17:58 -!- augur has joined. 19:18:11 but shows the idea 19:18:11 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv 19:19:14 augur: left hand is completely out of sync, i'm still getting used to recording myself; but right hand melody plays the same thing three times, but it lasts for 15 ticks, so it mixes interestingly with leftie 19:19:52 my hands tend to freeze up when i know i'm being watched 19:19:56 it's why i'm not a surgeon 19:20:47 also that song is longer, but most of it isn't interesting in any mathematical sense 19:20:47 oklopol what is this 19:20:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:20:53 didn't you ask me to record 19:20:56 that 15 thing 19:21:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:21:15 what 15 thing 19:22:02 ahh 19:22:02 12324 19:22:07 no? 19:22:19 20:25 oklopol: i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4 19:22:19 20:26 augur: oklopol: please to record 19:22:20 ehird: right but thats that got to do with the video? XP 19:22:27 oh 19:22:37 i was in a hurry to go to the shop, must have misinterpreted that 19:22:57 my timestamps suck 19:22:59 oklopol: pfft, you turned off the camera without showing heavily-compressed, darkened chest 19:23:03 what a waste of seconds! 19:23:06 :) 19:23:13 i have a shirt on 19:23:14 augur: watching not recommended 19:23:25 oklopol: yeah why'd you just have to give us your penis 19:23:31 i mean sheesh some of us prefer the other parts too 19:23:38 (at this point, augur downloads 15 copies) 19:23:43 (to 15 drives in 15 countries) 19:24:12 augur: you can play the 12324 thing on some midi prog 19:24:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:26:39 "The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]" 19:26:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:26:44 Windows: It's okay, it's broken in other ways too. 19:26:50 ais523: [[The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]]] 19:27:10 ehird, link to that "ubuntu on encrypted" thingy? 19:27:23 AnMaster: google.com; it involves having a running ubuntu system though 19:27:31 no way to do it with the regular installer 19:27:35 ehird, ugh 19:27:39 ehird: is that the now-fixed bug where you didn't need a UAC prompt to turn UAC prompts off? 19:27:48 or a different one? 19:28:07 ais523: dunno; the funny bit is the reaction 19:29:10 wow, I just got spam in Cyrillic 19:29:19 first Cyrillic spam I've seen, I'm guessing Russian 19:29:22 * ais523 wonders whether to translate it 19:29:35 hi ais523 19:29:43 hi oklopol 19:30:42 * ais523 wonders how accurately you could regex to match oklo nicks, but exclude non-oklo nicks 19:31:01 augur did something like that once 19:31:02 ais523: oklo.* 19:31:12 nah, because it doesn't always have an l 19:31:17 and certain letters never seem to be used 19:31:18 yes, it does 19:31:19 like a, for instance 19:31:22 hi ais523 btw 19:31:26 it's always oklo something 19:31:28 ehird: I remember okofok in here a while back 19:31:37 it was oklofok 19:31:42 ehird: we've had both 19:31:48 oklopol: confirm/deny 19:32:01 umm oklofok is one of my usual nicks. 19:32:15 oklopol: okofok 19:32:17 without the l 19:32:21 might even be my second most used. 19:32:22 oh 19:32:22 ais523 thinks you've been it 19:32:39 yes okofok is possible, but not what i'd usually go for 19:32:45 hey also 19:32:52 okl?o.* 19:32:53 done 19:33:07 we also had an okopol here ages ago, but it turned out it was because oerjan had stolen the l 19:33:13 or possibly, okopol lost the l, and oerjan found it 19:33:30 ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv maybe you're interested, the right hand melody plays a 15 note melody on top of 4/4 on the leftie, while trying to fit the chord progression as it becomes offset 19:33:36 i wonder if i'm a bad person for liking windows 7 19:33:48 ehird: no, you aren't 19:33:50 recorded for augur, but misunderstood, he actually wanted me to record some random crap 19:34:03 when Vista came out, I was pretty sure it was the best version of Windows ever 19:34:08 ais523: is it better if i dislike the internals but think the UI is great? 19:34:11 'cause that's my position 19:34:18 ehird: but they mostly stole the UI from Mac OS X 19:34:25 so that's fine, really 19:34:26 ais523: but it's *better* in quite a few ways 19:34:27 Are you accusing me of stealing? That's outrageous! Besides, you cannot prove it, I destroyed all the evidence. 19:34:37 for instance, the new task bar is better than the dock 19:34:47 oerjan: logs are foreverly. 19:34:50 it isn't centered by default, so applications stay in the same place 19:34:53 instead of jumping around all the time 19:35:02 and it has an expose-like but more localised and less obnoxious to switch windows in apps 19:35:06 oklopol: that's what we want you to think 19:35:06 instead of just focusing all of 'em like os x 19:35:24 they AREN'T?=EROg? 19:35:25 the thing that gets me about the Win7 taskbar is it looks really useful for people who don't run too many differnet applications and easily forget what they have running 19:35:39 but considerably worse for people who run loads of different applications and know what they're running at any given time 19:35:44 ais523: fuck no 19:35:51 ais523: any windows taskbar is totally unusable with how much stuff i have open 19:35:56 ah, ok 19:36:02 the dock bounces about too much and doesn't provide an easy way to switch windows 19:36:04 isn't that what you use multiple desktops for? 19:36:10 the windows 7 "doskbar" is great 19:36:14 ais523: that's arbitrary segmentation 19:36:23 why should i have a modal window organization format? 19:36:24 ehird: exactly, but that's a good thing 19:36:27 no, it's not 19:36:28 you can segment things arbitrarily 19:36:36 arbitrary segmentation doesn't work 19:36:39 because you have to remember it 19:36:42 as it's arbitrary 19:36:47 ehird: generally speaking there's an obvious way to segment in any given situation 19:36:51 there's not 19:36:56 even if there was, it's extra cognitive load 19:36:59 generally speaking my brain remembers the segmentation for me. 19:36:59 which is universally Bad 19:37:06 no matter how arbitrary 19:37:10 oklopol: please do not use strange spelling with ? in it, i get unicode paranoia 19:37:15 as, if cognitive load were OK, we'd just not bother with usability 19:37:19 for me, for instance, generally I'll have standard Internet stuff (RSS feed reader, IRC, web browser, email) in one desktop 19:37:32 ais523: i multitask 19:37:33 my friend segmented his hard drive in folders named A-Z, and puts stuff under a completely random letter 19:37:34 and whatever programming I'm working on (mostly terminals and HTML renderers for documentation) in another 19:37:36 i have a nice big screen 19:37:40 and i like floating windows 19:37:45 virtual desktops destroy all that 19:37:55 ehird: why do virtual desktops destroy floating windows? 19:37:58 and they're unneeded, anyway; the win7 dock/taskbar handles the usecase just fine 19:38:00 admittedly, my screen's rather smaller than yours 19:38:08 ais523: because floating windows means -all- windows floating 19:38:08 but I'll normally float a game to the right of TAEB 19:38:11 minus ones you've explicitly hidden 19:38:14 ehird: err, no? 19:38:16 yes 19:38:17 it does 19:38:23 you can have several maximised windows behind a couple of floating ones 19:38:31 then you're not using floating windows 19:38:38 you can code imperative programs in haskell, too 19:38:41 that doesn't mean haskell's imperative 19:38:49 I'm using floating in the sense of not maximised or pinned 19:38:55 which IIRC is the usual computer meaning 19:38:55 i'm not. 19:38:57 do you mean something else? 19:39:04 i'm using it in the sense of windows being behind other windows. 19:39:10 apart from ones you've EXPLICITLY hidden 19:39:13 -!- augur has joined. 19:39:14 virtual desktops hide all your current windows 19:39:19 i'd rather use a tiling wm 19:39:21 at least they're consistent 19:39:22 ehird: just the ones on a different desktop 19:39:34 and IMO, user-configurable inconsistency is good 19:39:35 ais523: circular reasoning 19:39:39 i would prefer just having them float around the room so i could physically fetch them, and throw them in the corner when i don't need them. 19:39:52 you can't forget a physical location 19:39:53 oklopol: for some reason you just reminded me of Project Natal 19:40:13 dunno what that is 19:40:27 btw, i coded haskell last night, and i loved it. 19:40:28 ais523: "Virtual desktops are a good way to organise windows." "No, virtual desktops hide windows that you don't explicitly." "That's because they're on another virtual desktop." 19:40:35 it's Microsoft attempting to make a control system that's like the Wii remote but more so 19:40:37 cirhurhurcular reasoning 19:40:44 i mean actually coded, used classes and monads and everything. 19:40:49 ehird: more, self-consistent reasoning 19:40:50 oklopol: wowzers 19:41:01 ais523: you're saying that virtual desktops hiding windows is good because that's how virtual desktops work 19:41:07 that is NOT a valid defense of virtual desktops 19:41:15 ehird: it's incredibly hard, my mouse keeps moving towards to python icon all the time :P 19:41:16 it's only a defence if you already accept that virtual desktops are good 19:41:18 ehird: no, I'm saying that virtual desktops are good because they let me hide windows 19:41:25 and that IMO, hiding windows is useful 19:41:26 I don't care if you like them!! 19:41:38 ehird: well, being able to hide windows > not being able 19:41:38 they absolutely suck and I hate them, so I reject you saying "isn't that what virtual desktops are for?" 19:41:47 unless the not being able comes with other advantages 19:42:18 that. does. not. solve. the. problem. of. organising. windows. for. someone. who. hates. virtual. desktops. 19:42:21 ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it? 19:42:46 that's the sort of thing I typically do, I'm wondering if that isn't typical for you, or if you have a different way to do it 19:42:57 ais523: I don't want a defence of virtual desktops! 19:43:03 I want something that works if you don't like virtual desktops. 19:43:06 ah, ok 19:43:18 so your issue is "I don't like virtual desktops; can you pick something else with all the same advantages?" 19:43:21 what are virtual desktops? are they exactly what they sound like? :P 19:43:24 oklopol: yes. 19:43:31 oklopol: it's just you have more than one desktop 19:43:32 like some kinda way to change to another vd 19:43:36 and can move programs between them 19:43:39 well, window 19:43:40 that sounds stupid 19:43:41 *windows 19:43:45 ubuntu did that in our school 19:43:49 19:42 ais523: ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it? ← yes, using a magical thing called a window switcher. 19:43:53 have you heard of them? 19:43:54 oklopol: Ubuntu does that by default everywhere 19:43:57 they were invented in 1984. 19:44:01 ehird: yes I have 19:44:11 good, because that has nothing to do with vds 19:44:14 presumably, you keep the email program minimized/hidden when you don't want it in front of your games? 19:44:26 otherwise, I don't see how you can easily send it to behind /both/ windows 19:44:36 ... 19:44:40 that's not even a question i can parse 19:44:49 ehird: ok, the point is that using a typical window switcher 19:44:50 I think you're asking "How do I do without virtual desktops?" 19:44:54 and the answer is "You don't." 19:45:05 it just raises the window you aim for 19:45:09 not another window at the same time 19:45:16 what? 19:45:19 i raise the window i wan 19:45:19 t 19:45:24 ehird: what if you want more than one? 19:45:27 that happens to me all the time 19:45:32 well, not all the time, but often 19:45:34 then i focus one window then the other 19:45:37 and arrange them as I see ift 19:45:38 fit 19:45:40 ah, ok 19:45:42 ehird: basically he wants the ability to make sets of windows switch as a group. 19:45:45 if one totally overlaps the other, buy a new monitor that's big enough 19:45:56 so IOW your setup is like mine, just more hard word 19:45:58 *hard work 19:46:02 ais523: erm, no 19:46:06 my setup is completely effortless 19:46:14 yours has the (even if minor) cognitive load of organising windows in virtual desktops 19:46:26 (I don't care if it seems natural; you still think about it for a split second whether you want to or not) 19:46:35 mine has less cognitive load, therefore mine — for me — is a superior interface 19:46:38 ehird: yours has the work of refocusing windows /every single time/ you switch 19:46:41 i personally hate the fact i need to organize the windows myself 19:46:43 also, wouldn't that require using the mouse? 19:47:01 ais523: Yes, I use the mouse to do mouse-suited tasks, like EVERY STUDY EVER CONDUCTED ON THEM show is more efficient. 19:47:05 i'd just wanna say "i wanna irc, watch vlc and play solitaire, while having my text editor close by" 19:47:06 Yes, it feels slower because of inherent cognitive biases. 19:47:09 This has also been researched. 19:47:14 It is not slower. 19:47:22 ehird: I find the keyboard is more efficient when you don't have a mouse attached 19:47:29 and you know it'd do it; of course i guess that is possible even in win 3.11, i just don't know what button to press :P 19:47:35 You're the one who failed to attach a mouse. 19:47:37 and I can press control-alt-right faster than I can move my hand to the mouse 19:47:42 That's like complaining that your computer isn't usable if you don't attach a display. 19:47:50 ehird: you try using a mouse in bed some time 19:48:00 ais523: Have you heard of these thing called laptops? 19:48:05 *things 19:48:06 ehird: yes, this is a laptop 19:48:15 balancing a laptop on my duvet while lying in bed = not hard 19:48:15 Apparently it's the only laptop ever without a pointing device. 19:48:23 ehird: it is; the touchpad here has never worked 19:48:26 ais523: i'm always in my bed, and i use a mouse all the time 19:48:31 I need an external mouse in order to get mice to work 19:48:36 oh 19:48:37 ais523: So you want user interfaces to be designed around your computer being broken? 19:48:40 Ummmmmmmmmm, argument DISMISSEd. 19:48:42 *DISMISSED 19:48:43 (actually, that's a lie, it worked for about 10 seconds, and has never worked since) 19:48:53 ehird: I want user interfaces that can cope with unusual modes of working 19:49:20 ais523: would you have complained that it's hard to balance an LCD on your lap if the built-in one was broken? 19:49:29 I don't want my experience to be completely incapacitated if the keyboard or mouse or screen stops working 19:49:32 and proposed that all UIs should work with just speakers? 19:49:47 there's a hardware bug here; if you close the laptop lid, the screen goes off, and it doesn't turn back on again until it's rebooted after that 19:50:30 are there oses for blind people? 19:50:31 personally, I'm rather pleased that it's possible to REISUB /in the middle of a distro upgrade/ and have the computer still working when I turn it back on again 19:50:37 oklopol: there are screenreaders 19:50:53 yes, but that doesn't work 19:50:54 available for most major OSes 19:50:58 oklopol: yes they do work 19:51:02 i've talked to blind people using them before 19:51:02 in fact, I think all major OSes bundle one, although some are better than others 19:51:04 blind PROGRAMMERS 19:51:19 (I think for programming they used emacsspeak) 19:51:22 ehird: more impressive than that; apparently there are people who play NetHack through a screen reader 19:51:30 *emacspeak 19:51:37 after setting all the characters to alphanumeric ones to make them easier to screenread 19:51:40 ais523: this guy was pretty impressive; I couldn't tell he was blind at all until he mentioned it 19:51:45 quick typing etc 19:52:19 I'd think typing would be the part of using a computer least hampered by being blind 19:52:28 I mean, even sighted people generally don't look at the keyboard when typing 19:52:39 ais523: yes, but it meant they could listen to what people were saying quickly 19:52:41 in a high-traffic irc channel 19:52:44 remember the relevant lines 19:52:46 then reply quickly 19:52:50 while others were still talking 19:52:50 \ 19:52:52 s/\\$// 19:52:58 ok, that is impressive; but it's the remembering context that's impressive, not the typing fast 19:53:05 i can't do that and i'm not even blind 19:53:12 ais523: you can tell they reacted quickly due to typing fast 19:53:25 well i can, but i don't enjoy it :P 19:53:25 typing fast = sending lines fast 19:53:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pIWlr3yoE torley is a silly man 19:54:03 anyway, you'd think they don't get the same gui experience with a screenreader 19:54:04 and that app is cool looking 19:54:14 ehird: I distinguish throughput from latency 19:54:15 i mean i'm assuming blind people don't use mouses? 19:54:24 oklopol: yeah it's mostly modal 19:54:24 to me, 'typing fast' = high throughput, but mentions nothing about latency 19:54:37 oklopol: yep, they navigate through everything the same way tab navigates through a dialog box 19:54:48 right 19:54:55 that's kinda outdated 19:55:01 IIRC, they normally use caps lock as an extra modifier key to control the screenreader 19:55:02 can't do any better 19:55:03 audio is linear 19:55:09 because nobody uses it for anything else... 19:55:15 ais523: ah so that's why they're all so calm and collected 19:55:17 also, I DO SO FUCK YOU 19:55:22 audio isn't linear 19:55:24 CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR SIGHT 19:55:30 oklopol: speech is 19:55:33 you could have surround, and have windows float around. 19:55:39 hah 19:55:39 a 19:55:49 ehird: there's a great bash.org quote about that, but it's probably not worth linking to it because you've probably seen it already 19:55:51 might look kinda ridiculous 19:56:16 but you know webcam, point to windows you want to see, they could make like a buzzing noise 19:56:21 it would be an asymptotically better gui for the blind! :D 19:56:36 "I PUT ON MY RObe and wzYEAH BUTrd hTHEt FUNCTOR IS A MONAD When tI CAST LVL 3 EROTICISM" 19:56:43 where asymptotical means not actually, but in some very crooked theory 19:56:44 ↑ #haskell + bloodninja surround windows 19:56:55 oklopol: hmm... sort of like a VR helmet, but with sound rather than light? 19:57:10 anyway i'd prefer that over the one i have now 19:57:16 ais523: what quote was it btw 19:57:16 I know that some people use VR helmets to get effectively infinitely large desktops 19:57:18 ais523: yes 19:57:30 ehird: finding it now 19:57:53 oklopol: i think that you could sort of do that visually with an array of monitors 19:57:55 and a zoom UI 19:58:00 http://www.bash.org/?835030 19:58:03 i'm just saying while blind people might get used to screenreaders, an ideal os for the blind would probably not just be that 19:58:06 just make it spin around and zoom in and out and stuff 19:58:14 ais523: oh right, old :P 19:58:24 ehird: yes, I know 19:58:30 that's why I said you'd probably seen it already 19:58:53 i wonder if microsoft really can't afford to ship helvetica with Windows (even though apple can) or if they just keep arial through sheer stubbornness 19:59:00 even their advertisements use Helvetica 19:59:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:59:11 ehird: I think they keep Arial because of the number of people who would demand Arial back if they removed it 19:59:25 it was the default font back in the days of Windows 3.1, I think because it was first in alphabetical order 19:59:36 and people ended up demanding Arial for years afterwards, probably still are 19:59:43 "WTF You fucked up arial in the new release, frist it's called 'hevletica' and second the R used to slant down but now it has a weird curve WINDOWS 8 IS USELESS" 20:00:05 i'd just like to remove all fonts except courier new from my comp 20:00:11 * ehird stabs oklopol 20:00:18 remember that Arial is one of the few Microsoft fonts that they released for Linux 20:00:18 Never say that again. :| 20:00:29 why? 20:00:30 oklopol: Windows will break if you remove MS Sans Serif, IIRC 20:00:31 ais523: yes, very evil those microsoft people 20:00:35 oklopol: Typography, you bitch. 20:00:39 Proportional fonts FTW. 20:00:46 ehird: they wanted Arial to become a standard font on the Internet 20:00:59 proportional fonts are ugly 20:01:01 * ais523 uses FreeMono for some things, like source code listings in reports 20:01:12 it looks identical to Courier New, AFAICT 20:01:17 there's probably a subtle difference somewhere 20:01:22 but either I or my screen aren't good enough to notice it 20:01:23 really i'd prefer just writing all caps 20:01:31 but people dislike that too 20:01:37 then again, people are idiots 20:01:44 oklopol: like an old-fashioned BBC Micror? 20:01:46 *Micro? 20:01:55 it was amusing; they could do lowercase, but people hardly ever used it 20:02:00 why would you 20:02:06 because you had to turn capslock off to type in lowercase 20:02:17 and all the commands were only recognised in uppercase 20:02:34 (holding shift when capslock is on = capital letter on a BBC Micro, for some reason) 20:02:43 same in OS X 20:02:52 same everywhere 20:02:52 BECAUSE PEOPLE INSTINCTIVELY ADD CAPITALS WHEN THEY'RE TYPING, NO MATTER WHAT. 20:02:55 oklopol: not in windows 20:03:00 the above sentence would start "bECAUSE". 20:03:05 hmm right 20:03:14 i don't really ever use caps 20:03:32 oklopol: you should implement your oklOS because i'm way too lazy to ever implement my idea 20:03:38 alas you are too much of an academic, says I! 20:03:40 iT SEEMS THAT cAPS lOCK AND sHIFT GIVES A LOWERCASE LETTER ON LINUX TOO 20:03:44 actually, probably X 20:03:46 you'd have to make something better than electricity first 20:03:50 ais523: probably console too 20:03:54 it's "standard" 20:03:55 :D 20:04:05 electricity is okay 20:04:10 ehird: is console input anything to do with the OS? or is it all handled by the BIOS? 20:04:15 ais523: dunno 20:04:17 ais523: well 20:04:18 ais523: it's OS 20:04:22 when i started writing an OS 20:04:24 you had to write keyboard code 20:04:29 you got keycodes in 20:04:34 and mapped them to chars 20:04:40 (thus why linux 1 only did swedish) 20:04:42 oklopol: i like to imagine that you'd name all your major discoveries as oklo-something 20:04:44 oklotricity 20:04:56 oklochippity (your version of silicon) 20:05:06 :D 20:05:07 oklocessity (cpu) 20:05:16 oklOSity (duh) 20:05:22 oklo...irc...ity 20:05:43 i usually name things i do with somekinda pun 20:05:49 even though i hate puns 20:06:23 oerjan: be offended 20:07:23 there were so many fruit flies near the micro i almost tripped because of teh startle 20:07:31 when they attacked me 20:07:58 the micro? 20:08:01 wave 20:08:03 sry 20:08:05 lol 20:08:48 i should write my os maybe 20:08:52 ais523: should I write my OS? 20:09:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:09:05 ehird: only once you have a good idea of how you want it to work 20:09:13 ais523: well. 20:09:18 (that's the answer) 20:09:30 I mean, in more detail than that 20:09:51 what things that really need to be built into the OS from the bottom up will you need to build into it from the bottom up? 20:10:15 there's not really an "os" in my model tbh 20:10:18 it's an environment 20:10:22 everything's built in, nothing's built in 20:12:01 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 20:13:14 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 20:13:31 oklopol: wait, you also have flies near the microwave today? they must be up to something... 20:14:51 They want to be cooked. 20:14:53 Nom nom nom. 20:14:56 well. i'm going to vacuum them after a few episodes. 20:15:00 ubuntu it is... 20:15:01 (just one here, though a bigger one) 20:15:02 sigh 20:15:09 .. 20:15:10 .... 20:15:11 .......... 20:15:12 . 20:15:26 AnMaster: didya figure out how to crypt 20:15:30 ehird, no 20:15:30 GregorR: you'd need quite a lot of them to make a pie. 20:15:41 AnMaster: someone might steal your cfunge repo :( 20:15:54 :P 20:16:17 i mean you need about 50 of them to make a fly. 20:16:22 ehird, very funny. Anyway. How pointless would it be to ask in #ubuntu about this? 20:16:35 AnMaster: incredibly 20:16:37 #ubuntu is useless 20:16:41 depends if your goal is information or amusement 20:16:52 hi mycroftiv 20:16:56 haven't seen you here before etc etc 20:16:57 mycroftiv, I want to know how to install on encrypted / under ubuntu basically 20:16:58 hello! 20:16:58 sounds like myndzi though :P 20:17:11 oh hi mycroftiv! 20:17:19 #ubuntu is informative sometimes 20:17:21 HI EVERYONE 20:17:24 yeah… longtime no see… mycroftiv? :P 20:17:26 AnMaster: i joined this channel because i love Plan 9 from bell labs, i use ubuntu but i dont do anything fancy with it other than host plan9 stuff 20:17:27 \o/ 20:17:30 and hi mycroftiv, everyone else seems to be saying hi soon so I may as well too 20:17:32 nice to meet everyone! 20:17:33 nope, not myndzi 20:17:43 ugu 20:17:45 uhu* 20:17:50 mycroftiv: i wonder what connected you from plan 9 to here, whatever it is it's astonishingly accurate :D 20:17:55 ehird, there is some talk about "Ubuntu alternate installation CD" not sure what that is 20:18:00 AnMaster: not worth it 20:18:04 AnMaster: it's the text-based installer with more options 20:18:05 i don't even know if they do anything to it any more 20:18:09 but I don't know if it has the option you want 20:18:15 AnMaster: plus, it'd be just as much as a pain as w/ the graphical 20:18:18 since it's mostly out of the installer 20:18:24 making the encrypted volume yourself then selecting it, AnMaster 20:18:27 mycroftiv: Plan 9 is discussed here every now and then 20:18:34 AnMaster: just follow some tutorial to make an encrypted volume 20:18:36 mount it 20:18:36 ehird, not sure if the initramfs will handle it 20:18:38 we love the way that it named an entirely unrelated program to the editor 'vi' 20:18:39 choose it in the ubuntu installer 20:18:40 ehird, that is the issue 20:18:42 AnMaster: you can rebuild it afterwards 20:18:49 you'd have to change /etc/fstab too in the root 20:18:52 but that'd get it installed at least 20:19:02 ais523: it has an emacs man page too! 20:19:10 ehird: is it for emacs? or for something else/ 20:19:16 i like plan9 and anything to make computing and the internet a weirder and wilder place, if there was a movement for Digital Surrealism, id join it 20:19:23 brb phone 20:19:32 ais523: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_2nd_ed/1/emacs 20:19:37 mycroftiv: /definitely/ sounds like you're in the right channel 20:19:43 also, why the topic? 20:19:48 "BUGS: Yes." 20:19:53 ais523: a polish guy came in with no idea who we were 20:19:56 and i talked via google translate 20:20:04 also then we did translation stuff w/ egobot 20:20:21 that's a great man page, I can't even tell if it's the same emacs or not 20:20:29 ais523: really? "editor macros" 20:20:30 SOURCE: MIT 20:20:34 it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was a macroset for acme, or something 20:20:34 see also vi 20:20:40 see also sam 20:20:42 (another editor) 20:20:50 ais523: the actual plan 9 programs tend to be well-documented… :P 20:20:53 yes, it's obviously an editor, or something for an editor 20:21:01 i don't even think /bin/emacs exists on plan 9 20:21:03 so it's a phantom man page 20:21:04 but given the way plan9 works, I'm wondering if it's the same one 20:21:14 it's mu, due to not existing 20:21:22 also, the correct location is /boot/emacs 20:21:41 there used to be a joke/troll manpage for emacs i think that bell labs did, bell labs thinks even Vi is bloat :) 20:22:14 I have seen non-bloated versions of Emacs (not GNU Emacs, some reimplementation) 20:22:18 but they were basically useless 20:22:39 it felt like notepad with Emacs key bindings 20:23:16 mycroftiv: i just linked to it 20:23:21 but they don't think vi is bloat 20:23:24 they just think it's designed wrong 20:23:25 imo 20:23:28 yeah 20:23:50 I don't see how you can reasonably argue vi is bloated; you can argue that /vim/ is bloated, though 20:24:07 ais523: vi is bloated because it does things that are not required to be integrated 20:24:11 it's designed wrong, simply 20:24:16 ive actually come around to the Way of Ed now myself, i think its actually a great tool for quick and easy edits...which probably means ive crossed some sort of Event Horizon for how I work with computers, and nothing i say can even reach the external universe 20:24:20 plan 9 kind of annoys me because they were so close to realising that the filesystem was just a redundant identifier for in-memory objects and they could unify them 20:24:32 but the unix thinking held on that tiny bit longer :( 20:24:36 esolangs challenge: looking at the titles of things in Recent Changes, figure out whether they're true or not 20:24:41 ehird: i agree that plan9 doesnt go 'all the way' with some of its ideas, and there is a lot of 'old unix' still in there 20:24:45 ais523: "true"? 20:24:50 ehird: I meant spam 20:24:53 ais523: ah 20:24:56 but said true by mistake 20:25:12 mycroftiv: learn TECO, that's what happened to ehird when he was going down the ed route 20:25:19 ehird: however, as a practical matter - it may be that doing 'a halfway job' and having things work as a pragmatic matter was still the right decision, plan9 is still evolving and being actively developed, so who knows what it will look like eventually 20:25:31 and I've used sed for editing before, because I didn't know how to use vi, and didn't realise nano was installed 20:25:34 mycroftiv: if you did s/plain text/in-memory entities/ and s/files/automatically-persisted entities/, Plan 9 would have that part down to a T 20:25:40 they were so close 20:25:44 (I'm quite a bit better at vi now, though, although I'm mostly still an emacs user) 20:26:27 ehird: its funny you say that - guess what software i am writing? its actually 'finished' to some extent - it is plan9 software that tries to extend from unix pipes to an abstraction called a 'Hub' that can be either static data or a flowing pipe, with an arbitrary number of readers and writers that can attach/detach freely 20:26:38 ha 20:26:39 so i think the idea is something youd like 20:26:44 ok, definitely definitely in the right channel 20:26:52 mycroftiv: quite timely, actually, as we were just discussing unconventional operating systems 20:26:55 how did you find us, anyway? 20:27:07 although we'd probably move on to attempting to program with a bunch of hubs, and nothing else 20:27:12 ehird 20:27:24 have you heard orbitals cover of the doctor who theme? 20:27:38 well, im in some plan9 related channels and Robdgreat was in there, and we were talking and he mentioned this channel, and i said 'what? #esoteric? joining now!' 20:27:45 Plan 9 From Outer Space! 20:28:17 my internal memory bank entry for "Robdgreat" is "RodgerTheGreat was a jerk and accused him of stealing his name when he didn't" 20:28:23 I may have the first bias-inserting RAM ever 20:28:29 ais523: actually my ideas even do go in that direction, because i use hubs to do both gnu screen like functionality, and to put 'persistent processes' running in them, with the idea i can eventually make an environment where everything i do is just echo >hub that is 'hiding' the right app 20:28:36 ehird: you remember that too, eh 20:28:42 Robdgreat: i remember everything :D 20:29:00 I've used this name almost exclusively for about 12 years now 20:29:06 RodgerTheGreat and Robdgreat are two different people? 20:29:09 wow, that's confusing, I never realised 20:29:24 sounds like a very good basis for a trademark infringement lawsuit. 20:29:29 you guys conquered egypt awhile back right? 20:29:33 Alexander the Great was you? 20:29:41 ais523: you can tell because one's a dick 20:29:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:29:57 ehird: to a first approximation, everyone on the Internet's a dick 20:30:08 (I mostly dislike him because he was a total jerk to me for no reason and made arguments that hinge exactly on "haha, you're young, QED", but…) 20:30:33 well, the fact that you're young clearly invalidates your dislike for him 20:30:40 ouch 20:30:40 my brain! 20:30:41 :-D 20:30:46 haha 20:32:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:43:50 anyone with ubuntu here? 20:43:54 ais523, you maybe? 20:43:59 how large is /boot 20:44:02 let me check 20:44:04 (du -sh or whatever) 20:44:11 Just put in 100MB and be done with it. 20:44:15 i use ubuntu, you just want how much space is being used by the files there, or are you partitioning? 20:44:22 * ais523 Applications | Accessories | Disk Usage Analyzer 20:44:24 ehird, I use 32 MB usually on arch 20:44:27 ais523, du -sh /boot 20:44:28 just to annoy AnMaster, I'd use the command line normally 20:44:31 that is all I want to know 20:44:31 [21:44:10] (jonas@/boot)$ du -sh 20:44:31 36M . 20:44:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:44:40 FireFly, 32-bit or 64-bit? 20:44:44 32-bit 20:44:49 50.5 MB 20:44:51 Well, kubuntu 20:44:53 ok that is pretty huge 20:44:54 So, with a bit of leeway, put in 100MB. 20:44:56 AnMaster: "37M /boot" for my work-workstation, which is a 32-bit Ubuntu too. 20:45:04 You HAVE got a thousand times that. 20:45:05 32-bit, I have an Ubuntu/Kubuntu hybrid here 20:45:17 85M /boot 20:45:20 I'm used to /boot needing about 16 MB... 20:45:24 On the school computer I'm IRCing from 20:45:28 mine is 27mb, but if i happen to be interested in doing kernel testing, it often may be several hundred mb with tons of kernels, so i think being parsimonious for /boot partition is silly unless your hdd is like a netbook or something 20:45:29 whe the hell do they put on it 20:45:30 Which is a 64-bit Ubuntu 20:45:36 AnMaster: Everything. 20:45:40 So it works for everybody. 20:45:44 Looks like it has 6 kernel versions 20:46:01 There's three kernels in my /boot; that's 3*~2.2 megs of kernels, 3*~1 megs of System.map, 3*~8.5 megs of initrd images, and 3*~0.5 meg "abi" files. 20:46:02 AnMaster: it has all the kernel versions you've ever had installed, unless you explicitly clean up old ones 20:46:07 together with all the devices 20:46:19 oh, also backups of them 20:46:25 *all the drivers 20:46:29 I guess since I don't own the workstation it's not actually "my" /boot. 20:46:33 vmlinuz taking up about 3.4 megs, System.map taking 1.8 megs, initrd 8.4, "abi" 0.5 20:46:45 oklopol: btw since we agree on how things should be manipulated and transformed and stuff in an OS, what kind of ui were you thinking of? 20:46:50 i'm the interest 20:46:55 And the somewhat irrelevant config of 89K each and vmcoreinfo of 1.2K each 20:47:16 Deewiant: And the memtest86+.bin of 122K! 20:47:30 Well, on this Ubuntu; maybe not in your case. 20:47:31 fizzie: That's O(1) though, it doesn't count 20:47:32 ais523, ouch 20:47:39 AnMaster: why ouch? 20:47:44 And yeah, it's on this machine too 20:47:45 ais523: he only has a 32MB hard drive 20:47:50 ah 20:47:52 clearly 20:47:54 ais523: i'm joking 20:47:58 Deewiant: "Okay, so I'll store a DVD image there, it's just O(1)." 20:48:05 ais523: he has 160000MB 20:48:10 fizzie: Yeah, exactly. 20:48:16 which means, of course, that 100MB is absolutely vital 20:48:22 hmm... arguably, storing a DVD image in /boot might not be a bad idea 20:48:30 if it was a liveDVD that mounted itself from disk 20:48:34 fizzie: As long as you don't store a DVD image for every kernel, which would be incredibly wasteful 20:48:37 that's got to be potentially useful for something 20:48:39 I'm just not sure what it is 20:49:05 Deewiant: I store a different movie DVD for each kernel, every time something I feel goes well with that particular kernel. 20:49:20 What movies do you currently have stored? 20:49:38 his current one is Richard M. Stallman Eats Stuff Off of His Feet 20:50:10 And for the record, this workstation has a separate /boot partition, "df -h" says size 92M, used 42M, avail 45M. 20:51:30 ehird: i do not have one definite opinion on that, but basically there's a way to visualize an object, and there's a working set containing objects you want to manipulate, automatically fit on the screen. 20:51:50 but that's not really something i've thought 100% through. 20:51:53 oklopol: how are objects visualised? 20:52:53 shouldnt that be modular and user configurable - i dunno what framework you guys were talking about, happy to be brought up to speed - but it seems like you ought to be able to have objects that act as data/display filters, and by choosing what of those are connected/mounted (whatever your semantics are) in the graphical namespace, you control the display? 20:52:54 what a simple and direct question. 20:53:00 oklopol: yep :) 20:53:01 let me think about that for a hour or so :P 20:53:07 mycroftiv: pretty much 20:53:10 my basic model is: 20:53:24 objects and methods that manipulate them directly, standard stuff like "bitmap image" having rotate-by-amount 20:53:26 then "views" 20:53:28 views are, basically 20:53:30 yeah 20:53:31 transformations of objects 20:53:34 it could be: 20:53:40 transforming an object into a visualisation 20:53:53 transforming an object into a rotated version, via a dialog that asks for the amount 20:53:53 etc 20:54:09 so you can make generic visualisers that have hooks to let additional components add parts to them 20:54:13 and also specialised visualisers 20:54:14 got anything like a semantics for a user command, or a system call in a language, for what applying those might look like? 20:54:31 mycroftiv: i generally think graphical, commandline would probably just be the language itself 20:54:37 yeah 20:54:46 since it's more challenging to try and apply it to blobs on the screen than just direct commands 20:54:55 (because views are basically the interesting part) 20:54:59 ehird: and everything duck typed so that a view is just any object that responds to certain drawing commands? 20:55:10 oklopol: it's more abstracted than that 20:55:10 im just thinking along the lines of 'how do i express the transformation/application' at whatever layer im working at if im coding the thing up 20:55:15 a view isn't specifically GUI related 20:55:19 although ofc you can add gui interfaces to them 20:55:26 it describes the fundamental interaction, so to speak 20:55:41 ehird: right, i think thats excellent, the interfaces for applying the transofrmations and the concept of a 'view' as a mapping doesnt need to know anything about graphics specifically 20:55:41 "FROM an object, TAKING a scale amount, TRANSFORMING INTO the rotation" 20:55:52 and that can basically be used to make a variety of things 20:55:56 a modal scale command, 20:56:02 a slider that scales in real-time 20:56:02 etc 20:56:09 and you can add them as different interfaces to the transaction object 20:57:25 so, i take it you guys want some kind of abstracted type-safe (or typeless?) system where you can really hand any object to any other object safely, so to speak? if it 'doesnt make sense' you either get weird results or null, but its safe to try to always (apply X Y) or x(y) or however you like to express it 20:57:44 mycroftiv: mine's duck typed 20:58:02 mycroftiv: because you should be able to invent a new type of vector image representation on the fly 20:58:04 and edit it immediately 20:58:07 yes 20:58:08 without defining interface boilerplate 20:58:11 i _might_ add interface types 20:58:19 so that you have the type "responds to this message with these parameters" 20:58:19 and the like 20:58:23 safety is easy, just don't give all objects access to all other objects. 20:58:26 but i think that generally those just end up repeating the code 20:58:32 but what oklopol said 20:58:36 for actual security, capability-based 20:58:41 for wantonly applying things to other things, go nuts 20:58:43 you might get an error 20:58:57 but if it royally messes up that object, just zap it 20:59:03 yes 20:59:10 no reason not to have reversibility built in also 20:59:22 you should always be able to 'pop back' to the previous state before an operation 20:59:22 erm, yes, very good reason 20:59:24 it's not TC 20:59:26 oh you mean undo 20:59:28 well duh, of course undo 20:59:32 you know the near-identical phone numbers in the SCO story? one of them just changes 20:59:34 mycroftiv: i'm going to restore every revision of every object, hopefully 20:59:35 *changed 20:59:41 *store 20:59:41 ehird: yes, constant versioning! 20:59:49 ive been on that as a crusade for a bit 21:00:01 mycroftiv: although i'll prefer to store the symbolic representation of the inverse operation when it's truly reversible 21:00:04 the great thing about logging is it's actually the ideal way to use your hd. 21:00:06 in my plan9 Hubfs, the idea is you can 'freeze' the pipe and then vac it to venti for deduplicative versioning at any point 21:00:09 otherwise 21:00:09 with the current hd's 21:00:11 all your inverted HD movie 21:00:14 would be stored along with the original 21:00:21 oklopol: i'm totally optimising for SSD 21:00:30 because i'm going orthogonal persistence 21:00:32 ehird: optimise for ROM 21:00:33 ram is harddisk, harddisk is ram 21:00:36 ram is just the cache 21:00:43 well, write-once memory 21:00:45 jump over the plug? restart 21:00:51 in a few seconds, your encode and processing tasks are going again 21:01:09 orthogonal persistence = good, but ideally you should have orthogonal everything 21:01:25 ehird: how about abstracting away totally from the physical substrate, and pushing that down a layer? the os level semantics you just 'tag' your data with whether you want it to be persistent or nonpersistent, versioned or not, etc - and then the lower layers choose how to apply those requested conditions to whatever the actual storage is 21:01:40 mycroftiv: nonono, everything is persistent 21:01:40 anyway, here's my idea for what an OS should be able to do 21:01:42 that's not up for debate 21:01:48 you know how grep can add line numbers? 21:01:49 you never lose anything unless you explicitly zap every single revision of it 21:01:56 you should be able to run an input file through grep 21:01:58 ehird: how about 'no erase' at the os level then even? 21:02:01 and /then/ add the line numbers afterwards 21:02:06 just like venti does it? version all the data, never delete 21:02:12 it should remember where the lines came from so you can do that 21:02:19 mycroftiv: it should be possible, in case you get some stupid files you don't want 21:02:24 but it just shouldn't be common 21:02:51 ehird: think about the 'no delete' at os semantics option, because that is a huge security feature in some ways, in terms of data security and availability, if its impossible to mistakenly delete stuff 21:03:01 mycroftiv: no 21:03:03 there's no reason to do that 21:03:05 it just restricts freedom 21:03:13 nah, it pushes the freedom down a layer 21:03:16 mycroftiv: everything is inherently restricted, anyway 21:03:18 capability security 21:03:22 things can't wantonly delete your shit at all 21:03:28 but i can if im stupid, maybe 21:03:48 if the user wants to make a big fat drop-target that lets em drag any objects e wishes to it and instantly obliterates it, then e is a royal idiot 21:03:52 and will promptly be allowed to do it 21:04:15 ill support 'worse is better' philosophy, sure - thats standard unix principles 21:04:21 not quite 21:04:24 i just support freedom 21:04:28 me too 21:04:35 mycroftiv: you would have to explicitly give this object the ability to delete without qualification 21:04:38 for it to work automatically 21:04:41 but isnt 'worse is better' actually about freedom? 21:04:52 and you can't stop the user doing what e wants anyway 21:04:54 i thought the idea is 'keep the users freedom, even if that means allowing stupid things' 21:04:59 if e wants to get rid of eir data 21:05:03 eir final resort? 21:05:08 Throw the harddrive out of the window; stomp on it. 21:05:22 mycroftiv: worse is better is about the internal implementation simplicity beating correctness and a nice UI 21:05:24 I don't fully agree 21:05:36 because, well, the unix UI sucks because of it. 21:05:49 sure 21:05:50 anyway, brb. feel free to ping me, the messages will go into the mental Q 21:05:55 by which i mean queue 21:05:56 ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature 21:05:56 → 21:06:09 I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though 21:06:21 cool ideas, ill actually try to code what i can embodying them for plan9 21:11:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:32 -!- comex_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:26:45 heh, heading of one of the forum posts talking about SCO's latest complicated attempt to achieve something: "Is Germany in Japan, or is Japan in Europe?" 21:29:49 ehird, ubuntu doesn't accept extents on ext4 partitions 21:29:53 wth 21:30:06 as in: installer doesn't accept it 21:32:24 no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after? 21:38:37 It's UBUNTU for crying out loud 21:38:39 What do you expect 21:40:41 extents? 21:41:16 Sgeo: the new feature in ext4 21:42:58 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:42:58 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:47:04 -!- augur has joined. 21:47:04 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:53:26 20:32 AnMaster: no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after? 21:53:30 it means you don't remove after. 21:54:07 21:05 ais523: ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature 21:54:07 yep 21:54:22 because I have to know that the internals are bad much less than I have to know the UI is bad 21:54:40 and I don't like using software that makes me think meta-thoughts as opposed to the thoughts about what I'm doing 21:55:25 it means you don't remove after. <-- I don't want stuff like palm sync tools 21:55:35 if you remove them you'll remove ubuntu-desktop 21:55:39 which will break upgrades 21:55:42 well, distro ugprades 21:55:47 AnMaster: if you don't want htem 21:55:48 them 21:55:49 don't use them 21:55:55 they take what, a few meg? 21:56:01 actually, AnMaster 21:56:06 do you remove all the elisp files you don't use? 21:56:18 or do you just let 5x5, life, ... 21:56:22 stay around and simply not use them? 21:56:25 I rest my case 21:56:39 removing ubuntu-desktop doesn't 'break upgrades' 21:56:45 it just means you aren't automatically given the standard application set 21:56:55 ais523: well, sort of 21:56:57 as you're removing standard applications, you can't be... 21:56:59 there's more stuff to it than that iirc 21:57:12 anyway it generated a broken initramfs... *debugs* 21:57:45 …I'm not sure AnMaster understands what Ubuntu is… 21:58:49 encrypted root 21:58:55 I need that 21:59:23 you do know that when people steal your laptop they'll give up at the password prompt and install Windows? 21:59:37 you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key? 21:59:46 how could they? bios password and boot order set to boot disk first 21:59:55 it would be non-trivial to boot a windows install cd 21:59:58 sure could be done 22:00:01 but not trivial 22:00:05 AnMaster: Then they'll just give up and dump it. 22:00:11 Just as they would at the password screen. 22:00:18 And, as I said, "you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key?". 22:00:26 Encrypting / on a laptop that's password-protected buys you precisely zilch. 22:00:34 No caveats. 22:00:59 the usual trick if you want to get a laptop past, say, the TSA, is to set it to boot Windows with no timeout 22:01:03 even though you normally use Linux 22:01:18 yah 22:01:19 ais523, TSA? 22:01:22 ehird: only assuming you cave in to the threats. 22:01:28 or violence 22:01:50 oklopol: yeah, uh, when someone's repeatedly hitting you in the face with a baseball bat and knocking out your teeth, you're gonna tell them your encryption code 22:02:05 or, you know, alternatively, die 22:02:11 if your data is more important than your life 22:02:23 if i know the alternative is to die, then depends on the data. 22:02:25 ehird: possibly I'd end up dying, my strongest password is so long and complicated I can't even spell it correctly more than 1 time in 3 22:02:44 data so secure, even you cant read it 22:02:46 o.O ehird's a mod on Reddit? 22:02:51 Sgeo: in /r/mspaint, yes. 22:02:58 which is a rather… small corner of it. 22:03:00 ehird: why? 22:03:17 "a community for 6 hours" 22:03:21 ehird, seems you need alt install cd to make it work for ubuntu 22:03:30 ehird: anyway i'd say few people are actually willing to kill me for whatever data i may have 22:03:32 sigh 22:03:54 AnMaster: apparently you haven't been listening to me 22:03:56 so i'd probably just assume they aren't going to kill me even if they tell me they are 22:04:08 ehird, about not encrypting? No 22:04:16 AnMaster: it provably has no forseeable benefit 22:04:17 oklopol: congratulations, you have now just about wrapped up the relevant xkcd comic :D 22:04:21 in any case whatsoever 22:04:33 is dat so 22:05:15 http://xkcd.com/538/ 22:05:27 (your contribution being the hover text 22:05:29 ) 22:06:26 anyway, after a few hits from a baseball bat, if still conscious, i'd be so full of adrenalin it would probably be much harder to get the passw out of me 22:06:55 that's why they drug you first, duh 22:06:58 sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs i'm pretty sure i could get your password out of you oklopol 22:07:20 doubt that 22:07:29 but really depends on the data 22:07:56 As well as ehirds strength 22:07:59 oklopol: i'm not sure you understand how drugs work 22:08:01 but of course there are things i'd die for. 22:08:06 FireFly: i specifically specified things to hit people with 22:08:11 ehird: well right, depends on the drugs as well i guess :P 22:08:15 like, oh, a powered chainsaw? 22:08:20 There's not much I died for. Maybe if my dying would prevent deaths 22:08:27 * oerjan sort of thinks the idea that people can withstand torture by willpower is a myth, except he vaguely recalls reading that McCain did so... 22:08:29 s/I died/I'd die/ 22:08:30 Sgeo: you never died for something? 22:08:32 how strange 22:08:33 dammit 22:08:56 lol 22:09:01 yes, say there were instructions for killing the whole population of earth on my hd, i would die before giving those up. 22:09:09 ah managed to work around it 22:09:34 Even if I met someone who had something dangerous to hit me with (say, a bat), I think still it depends partly on the strength 22:09:41 AnMaster — doing things that can be proved to have no positive effect and just make things way harder for him since 2009. 22:09:45 Hmm, no, probably all his life. 22:09:54 FireFly: chainsaws aren't that heavy 22:09:58 and you don't need much of a swing 22:10:04 True 22:10:14 also slipping and dropping it adds to it ofc 22:10:44 also chainsaws suck for getting the truth out of someone 22:10:56 well i guess you could remove a hand or something 22:11:13 I'd say it rather depends on how close you are to the nearest policeman 22:11:27 ais523: "sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs" 22:11:28 — my conditions 22:11:34 besides, let's say the government approves 22:11:39 they're unethical enough to 22:11:45 oklopol: how much do you value your penis 22:12:04 a bit more than my hands prolly 22:12:13 BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 22:12:26 i value my brain the most, so you can't do much better than that baseball bat. 22:12:40 oklopol: free trepanation services 22:12:45 comes with free lobotomy 22:12:52 works :) 22:13:32 ehird: anyway, willing to die for stuff usually means you're willing to lose your penis for it 22:13:40 oklopol: yes, intellectually 22:13:42 not instinctively 22:13:46 torture works 22:14:06 AnMaster: so, care to provide one situation where encryption of a password-protected laptop actually has any advantage? 22:14:08 i'm all ears. 22:14:29 i am usually fairly intellectual under all sorts of torture; haven't been hit with baseball bats though 22:14:40 oklopol: have you truly ever been really tortured 22:14:43 i doubt 22:15:12 not really. but you do realize you don't really feel the pain after a few minutes 22:15:20 no root pass is set? Seems insanely insecure 22:15:27 AnMaster: you can't log in as root. 22:15:28 use sudo. 22:15:43 anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true 22:15:53 I meant: use root password for sudo not user password 22:15:54 should put that on my todo list 22:16:00 AnMaster: no. 22:16:00 right under gay sex and killing someone 22:16:01 `addquote anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list 22:16:04 53| anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list 22:16:08 in case someone looked and saw one password it would reduce the impact 22:16:10 `revert whatever 22:16:10 Done. 22:16:12 ehird, you can do that duh 22:16:13 `append the gay sex bit 22:16:13 No output. 22:16:18 in /etc/sudoers 22:16:25 AnMaster: you can do it, but you shouldn't and it is pointless 22:16:28 i think you should not use ubuntu. 22:16:30 the great experiences of life 22:16:49 oklopol: i don't think killing someone is a terribly great experience 22:16:50 oklopol: So for you, the great experiences are gay sex, killing someone and being tortured. Sounds like a fun night. 22:16:56 unless your fun function is like destroysPsyche(x) 22:17:26 Basically he wants to be a BDSM slave to some guy, then break free and kill him. 22:17:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:17:34 well not just that, but how is having to fight not going insane not fun? 22:17:46 i wonder why ais left 22:17:50 i'm pretty sure directly killing someone is permanent damage. 22:17:56 good luck not having trauma from that 22:17:56 *going insane 22:18:03 negation failure i thinks 22:18:10 fighting not going insane sounds fun 22:18:24 i don't really believe in trauma 22:18:39 oklopol: trauma believes in you. 22:19:11 but, then again some people seems to get traumatized forever from having someone have sex with them, so i guess i just shouldn't compare myself to humans. 22:19:15 *seem 22:19:23 (talking about rape) 22:19:30 oklopol: i think your problem is you think your ego is unbreakable/all of your psyche, and therefore you think resisting torture is merely about choosing not to give in 22:19:32 oklopol: have you ever actually been raped :P 22:19:40 lol good question eh 22:19:40 ehird 22:19:46 ehird: no, i'm a man 22:19:46 s/eh\nehird/ehird/ 22:19:49 But they love you, Charlie! 22:19:50 oklopol: >_< 22:19:54 oklopol: please tell me that was a joke 22:19:55 if i was a woman, i'd try it ofc 22:20:00 No wait, it's 22:20:03 But they care about you, Charlie! 22:20:11 you know that women have raped men and men have raped men, right, oklopol? 22:20:18 i mean i assume you're joking. 22:20:41 also horses have raped people 22:20:45 no 22:20:48 i don't think that's happened. 22:20:53 ... 22:20:56 yes it has 22:21:01 welllll okay 22:21:04 there was this guy, not that long ago, died of it 22:21:18 that was more like the guy making the horse fuck him. 22:21:24 hmm 22:21:26 as opposed to, la la la, bending over naked in front of a horse 22:21:27 oh my 22:21:28 right, the accident was with a bull 22:21:30 is that a horse penis? 22:21:33 maybe 22:21:34 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh 22:21:35 eurgh 22:21:38 :D 22:21:38 *flump* 22:21:59 anyway no i was not joking, i'm pretty sure there's no way for me to get raped. 22:22:16 oklopol: well first step someone overpowers you 22:22:21 then they fuck you 22:22:29 if i was a woman, i believe it might be possible. for instance i know women who have been raped, i don't know guys who have even ever feared they might get raped. 22:22:30 unless like 22:22:32 the third law of physics 22:22:35 "oklopol cannot be raped" 22:22:40 err, right, it's physically possible 22:22:47 i'm just saying it's unlikely it'll happen 22:22:48 oklopol: Here you go: 22:22:49 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=man+raped&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 22:22:57 Man was raped and beaten by a former lover, High Court hears‎ - 19 hours ago 22:22:57 BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Man 'raped and beaten by lover' 22:23:00 Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women: News24: SouthAfrica: News 22:23:03 etc. 22:23:21 seriously, i'm not saying it's impossible 22:23:29 i'm just saying it's like winning the lottery. 22:23:43 Except more.. negative 22:23:51 oklopol: not rly, just be BFFs w/ creepy fuck 22:23:54 yeah getting raped by women would be really negative :P 22:23:58 and get 'em obsessed over you 22:24:01 and taunt them 22:24:03 and make them go insane 22:24:10 that should do the trick 22:24:48 that sounds like a lot of work 22:25:22 anyway you can't seriously be saying being male doesn't affect *tons* on the odds of getting raped 22:25:28 the odds, ofc 22:25:54 yeah but it's not like "women are stupid", it's more like "women have vaginas", sure some men have too, but... 22:25:58 but i'm (100% - epsilon) sure that if you're a member of homo sapiens sapiens and you're raped, you will be psychologically damaged by it 22:26:31 so are most ppl 22:27:08 oklopol: it's worth noting that you're just a crazy guy and most people include psychologists, people who have been raped, ... probably rapists ... 22:27:09 etc 22:28:00 i'm not saying most people don't get traumatized over something like that, i'm saying i wouldn't 22:28:29 * Sgeo would be scared that he'd get an incurable STD 22:29:01 you can get that from sex anyway 22:29:47 also you can just check, no reason to be traumatized over it. 22:29:53 In a consensual situation, I'd use a condom 22:29:58 ehird, what is the ubuntu equivilent of rc.local? And yes I really need it. Because I need to do some stuff you can't otherwise 22:30:08 And I and my partner would be checked for STDs first 22:30:10 related to battery management 22:30:31 huh it has rc.local how could I miss it 22:30:54 AnMaster: Uhh, battery management can be managed via the preferences. 22:31:00 right, i guess you would 22:31:15 they're just kinda in the way 22:31:15 ehird, Thinkpad specific settings. And not in settings 22:31:38 to prevent fully charging in order to prolong battery life. As recommended by both IBM and Lenovo 22:32:17 is there anything you can try at home that'd traumatize you? :P 22:32:25 now i'm kinda intrigued 22:32:43 oklopol: kill whoever else is in it 22:32:47 or, you know, yourself 22:32:47 any genuinely life-threatening accident? 22:33:45 i'm alone atm, and i don't think dying would be very traumatizing :P 22:33:58 ehird, so what do you mean it can be done the normal way? it can't 22:34:15 AnMaster: /shrug 22:34:21 oklopol: sure would be if you watch 22:34:22 i would imagine humans have pretty strong instincts against doing anything to themselves that is traumatizing... 22:36:24 my father is kind of a drunk, i've fought him a few times, that usually traumatized me until i walked out of the house and went to buy coffee 22:37:22 after a few hours he calls and is like omg are you moving out the house, and i'm reading my database book and am like what are you talking about :D 22:37:39 sounds like a very functional family 22:38:06 my family is pretty nice 22:38:38 yay an OOPS in the wlan driver. At least the kernel arch used was new enough to not OOPS there 22:38:41 sigh 22:38:51 AnMaster: so why are you using ubuntu if you just want to complain about it 22:38:58 ehird: that's above average functionality in finland you know 22:39:05 i DON'T want to complain 22:39:06 oerjan: :D 22:39:08 I want it to work 22:39:09 AnMaster: then don't. 22:39:11 it does 22:39:15 it just doesn't work how you want 22:39:47 oerjan: i'm fairly sure my relationship with my parents is better than average in all countries 22:40:01 my life is perfect in all senses 22:40:09 i wish my life was perfect 22:40:44 just tell your brain it is 22:41:11 oklopol: my subconscious has veto powers 22:41:43 i don't think my brain control was very good until like a few years ago when i started learning it actively 22:42:04 i was going to say it was the evil body-snatching gnomes, but they vetoed it. 22:42:28 but it takes surprisingly little effort to learn to be happy 22:43:31 more coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 22:44:01 oklopol: you should make lessons dude 22:44:03 on how to be so fucking happy 22:44:19 you said you're in awe at trees all the time, i can't even be in awe of… an awey thing :| 22:44:22 i'd totally pay like 22:44:24 $10000000000000000000000000000000 22:44:33 being happy is easy, stuff like stopping itching is much harder 22:44:52 but aren't you in awe of his ability to be in awe? 22:44:54 wait, you know how to stop itching? 22:45:00 err yes 22:45:03 i told about that ages ago 22:45:17 right after i realized i could stop hiccups by just deciding to 22:45:18 what is the package for stuff like gcc binutils and such 22:45:18 ehird, ^ 22:45:25 itching took a few weeks 22:45:31 build-essentials or something right? 22:45:41 AnMaster: yes 22:45:48 can't find it in synaptics though 22:45:50 Asztal: that is true 22:45:53 i still can't stop a yawn from coming though :D 22:45:56 AnMaster: it's not in Install/Remove 22:45:58 it's in Synaptic 22:46:03 ehird, ...? 22:46:06 one is just a super-easy installer for gui software 22:46:08 I *am* in synamtics 22:46:08 the other's in Administration 22:46:11 as I said 22:46:13 and is a full package manager 22:46:16 from administration 22:46:18 I'm in there 22:46:18 yes 22:46:19 ... 22:46:21 AnMaster: build-essential 22:46:24 a few weeks ago i decided to do it, for two hours i held it in, but it just kept trying to come until finally i got tired 22:46:30 just installreate it 22:46:33 ah 22:46:34 *installerate 22:46:48 but yawning has always been my weak spot, i sometimes yawn for hours because i just can't stop 22:47:07 oklopol: do you exaggerate how awesome your life is for irc 22:47:08 say yes 22:47:25 no. 22:47:29 sey yas 22:48:00 oklopol: SAY YES 22:48:06 well sure 22:48:19 oklopol: so it is 22:48:22 i do enjoy having true stories people just dismiss as the ramblings of a mythomaniac 22:48:29 :< 22:49:05 shit can't stop yawning :D 22:49:30 oklopol: why do you pay attention to what shit does? 22:49:32 sounds weird 22:49:40 maybe i'm a scatophiliac? 22:49:51 no that's coppro 22:49:59 both are used 22:50:02 AKA crapppy 22:50:03 oh 22:50:06 i see what you did there 22:50:11 no aka coprophillia 22:50:19 *coprophilia 22:50:43 Poor coppro and his poor name choice :P 22:50:47 i thought you were referring to the fact scato is used more commonly for phagia, and copro for the philia 22:50:57 i'll phage your philia 22:51:00 if you know what i mean 22:51:09 oh i totally do 22:52:58 i'm actually quite an enthusiast of all kinds of mental disorders, maybe because i've always wanted to be insane 22:53:20 oklopol: but if you were insane you couldn't properly enjoy thinking about mental disorders 22:53:47 he could be a MAD SCIENTIST 22:53:49 i mean many people consider me insane, but i function pretty well under most situations, i'd prefer something that's actually classified a mental disorder 22:53:54 ehird: true. 22:54:01 oklopol: you're just insane enough anyway 22:54:10 yeah i think i have a pretty good amount 22:54:13 you're completely bonkers but can point this out and discuss the bonkers at a meta-level 22:54:20 thus making you sane but crazy. 22:54:35 i'm very tempted to fuse those words together now. 22:54:43 sazy. 22:54:49 mmm tasty 22:55:21 oerjan: yes, that would be awesome 22:56:04 well, most mad scientists in comics and stuff are all about destroying the world, i prefer the real world kind that's only interested in some incredibly useless subsubject 22:56:31 hey that's no fun. at least build an orbital death ray! 22:56:35 but being interested in only one thing is boooooooring 22:56:42 namsaying? 22:57:13 ehird: well true, while i'm not sure i'll ever actually try killing anyone, it would be nice to try out at least a few kinds of lives. 22:57:39 oklopol: i cannot figure out how those clauses fit together 22:57:43 :D 22:57:54 i realized i left out a few logical steps 22:58:09 but i thought hey, who cares he's a smart dude he'll come up with something 22:58:37 oklopol: my brain made the mental association "this guy is obsessed with killing people and taking their identities" 22:58:37 like 22:58:39 while you're not sure you'd ever kill anyone 22:58:40 thus going through with it 22:58:41 you'd like to 22:58:45 so that you can assume their identity 22:58:48 and try out new lives 22:59:15 hm clearly what oklopol needs there is a body snatching device 22:59:23 oklopol: how wrong am I? 22:59:27 basically, my todo list would probably be less broad than the one i joked about earlier, but it's how i'd like to structure my life, trying stuff out. 22:59:32 i should ask the gnomes if they do mail order 22:59:46 but it's true that was probably not deduceable from what i actually said. 23:00:12 *that's how 23:00:27 not sure that was still very clear 23:00:34 oklopol: i prefer my interpretation, don't you? 23:00:36 nothing is deduceable, logic is a lie 23:00:40 there's much more of a link between the two 23:00:44 and it's crazier 23:01:01 yes i like it 23:01:51 oklopol: is it now your new life goal :P 23:02:31 ehird: i'm not sure i like it that much :) 23:03:20 :( 23:03:30 my mind worked on it hard for about a second 23:04:01 how hard is it to get a pilot's license usually? 23:04:14 i mean on a scale from driving license to astronaut 23:04:30 42 23:04:31 i was thinking i'd get that but never drive a car 23:05:11 or get a driver's license at like 40 like my dad did 23:05:56 oklopol: astronaut is just pushing some buttons in a cabin 23:05:57 pretty easy! 23:06:09 probably because of that he's the kind of driver who waits for 10 minutes, then finds another route, if the traffic light is jammed at red, and there are no other cars in sight. 23:06:40 ehird: well the probably job is, i agree like totally completely, but i'm talking about the training 23:06:43 how long it takes 23:06:55 astronaut training: 23:07:01 "This button does this, that one does that, blah blah." 23:07:05 "Also, you're going to the moon." 23:07:06 "Bye!" 23:07:37 i mean driving license takes like 30-300 hours, kind of a rough estimate, i'm not exactly an expert, astronauts train for like... many years, right? 23:08:13 more like 3 seconds 23:08:52 hmm 23:09:17 weird i could've sworn it was took at least like a crash course in vegas 23:09:20 *-was 23:09:26 You can get a pilot's license in a couple of weeks if you insist on it. 23:09:45 (that is, if you fly every weekday) 23:09:52 i want a Go Anywhere The Fuck You Want To pilot's license 23:10:01 you can get in your plane and start it and fly wherever and just touchdown and get out 23:10:10 *Wherever, not Anywhere 23:10:27 like, find a nice little island hanging around? 23:10:28 touchdown! 23:10:30 plant flag. 23:10:50 I have just decided that I'm going to spell "advise" as "advize". Screw you, UK. So I would advize you to use something other than an Airplane if you want to do that. 23:10:51 pant fag. 23:10:56 ehird: That's a basic pilot's license, flying in the right lanes using visual information. 23:10:58 ehird: they tried that, but unfortunately they had some trouble getting north korea to sign on the scheme 23:11:06 pikhq: no no no 23:11:15 pikhq: WHEERVER 23:11:17 *WHEREVER 23:11:19 as long as you don't hit things 23:11:35 Oh, counting other countries, eh? Good luck with that. ;) 23:11:35 pikhq: do you have one? :) 23:11:42 oklopol: No. 23:11:54 pikhq: yeah; also islands and shit 23:12:00 it'd just be awesome to go anywhere. 23:12:04 And ... the ocean? 23:12:06 And ... space? 23:12:10 no not spac. 23:12:11 space. 23:12:12 And ... the Andromeda galaxy? 23:12:13 but the ocean yes. 23:12:15 no 23:12:17 not andromeda. 23:12:38 I want a FTL spaceship. 23:12:52 why do you want a spaceship designed to lose 23:13:20 pikhq: is ftl for the lose in that? 23:13:28 no :P 23:13:34 faster than lard 23:13:45 well that's just confusing. 23:13:49 Indeed 23:13:55 Faster than 1 L/T. 23:14:17 (lard testicle) 23:14:17 flimsier than lettuce 23:16:36 http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html ← ooh interesting challenge 23:16:40 what's rot again 23:17:00 `define rot 23:17:01 * putrefaction: a state of decay usually accompanied by an offensive odor \ * decompose: break down; "The bodies decomposed in the heat" \ * decomposition: (biology) the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action 23:17:38 -_- 23:18:08 btw turns out i don't have to vacuum the flies just yet, the rest of this house's population is sick, and isn't coming home for a week \o/ 23:18:36 lol 23:18:46 i should go socialize with them right away 23:18:49 x y z → y z x 23:18:50 okay 23:19:09 so basically 23:19:14 pull the third element to the front 23:19:59 hmm well 23:20:05 i could combine y and z pretty easily 23:20:07 kinda 23:20:20 wait 23:20:21 it's easy 23:20:41 well relatively 23:20:53 basically 23:21:01 * oerjan mumbles something about bit size and information content 23:21:34 combine top two >r >r 23:21:35 umm 23:21:36 then stuff 23:21:45 basically get the two back out again separated 23:21:48 or rather 23:21:52 it's basically 23:21:58 so umm what do those R things do? 23:22:06 >R, R>, R@ 23:22:07 oklopol: >r pushes top to return stack 23:22:09 * oerjan mumbles more forcefully 23:22:11 r> pushes return stack to thingy 23:22:13 r@ does something 23:22:22 oerjan: why not assume bignums :P 23:22:36 oklopol: oh 23:22:43 oklopol: I think R@ is R> without the pop 23:22:43 err, guess i don't know what return stack is. 23:22:46 i.e. just top of return stack 23:22:51 oklopol: basically another stack 23:22:55 it also has return addresses but you can ignore that 23:23:27 when the function returns, are its contents pushed on the data stack or something? 23:23:39 oklopol: erm return stack doesn't contain return values 23:23:44 it contains addresses to jump to to return 23:23:56 oklopol: basically you want to leave the return stack as you came in to the word with 23:24:00 otherwise shit will fuck up 23:24:07 alright, i see now. 23:24:07 you can just use it as a zero-sum secondary stack 23:24:47 thought it might be used for having another stack where zero-sum is somehow enforced automatically; whatever that means 23:25:18 oklopol: : DUP >R R@ R> ; explains it 23:25:20 put at return stack 23:25:23 top of return stack 23:25:24 pop from return stack 23:25:25 yeah 23:25:29 i just realized it does 23:25:30 oklopol: also no bignums 23:25:40 well yeah, i know that much about forth 23:26:52 * ehird realises how to stop AnMaster using Ubuntu 23:26:53 what's over? 23:26:57 AnMaster: they disabled control-alt-backspace. 23:27:01 although i guess i could just read the definition 23:27:06 ehird: WHAT. 23:27:12 oklopol: x y → x y x 23:27:13 pikhq: :) 23:27:14 : ROT >R SWAP R> SWAP ; 23:27:17 MURDER. 23:27:19 ah 23:27:22 oerjan: that uses swap. 23:27:27 although well 23:27:29 it's valid 23:27:32 oerjan: does it work? 23:27:36 so expand that 23:27:44 why shouldn't it? 23:27:44 oerjan: post it as a comment, anyway 23:27:55 it should 23:27:57 pikhq: i've hit it accidentally before, plus you can go to the console to restart X 23:28:00 so good riddance 23:28:04 decruft! onwards! 23:28:15 ETHNIC PURGING OF THE UNSANITARY ELEMENTS! 23:28:23 WE—WILL—PREVAIL! 23:28:44 ehird, I know how to enable ctrl-alt-backspace btw 23:28:46 it is dead easy 23:28:57 hm, the SWAP implementation looks complicated 23:29:01 well maybe not with no xorg.conf 23:29:03 but still easy 23:29:04 AnMaster: why are you using ubuntu? you're just reversing everything they've done 23:29:13 seems very pointless. 23:29:34 ehird, because things works mostly for the hardware 23:29:44 would in debian too, and you'd complain less. 23:29:44 ehird, and I'm only changing some stuff 23:29:52 ehird: using the other definitions on the page, that'll surely be more than 50 words when expanded :( 23:29:54 ehird, I like debian even less 23:30:08 ehird, and it feels less integrated 23:30:13 oerjan: maybe he doesn't mean expanded 23:30:23 AnMaster: did you remove that palm stuff? 23:30:28 sounds like you don't care about integration. 23:30:30 ehird, a bit odd installing something like the svn *client* pulls in mysql *server* 23:30:36 uhh, it does? 23:30:40 ehird, yep 23:30:43 otoh shouldn't you be able to do SWAP with some other trick 23:30:53 without going by that horrible OVER 23:31:08 oerjan: easily 23:31:09 let me think 23:31:10 ehird, I thought you hated mysql too 23:31:15 well 23:31:16 hmm 23:31:17 okay 23:31:18 got it 23:31:29 dup >r + r> - 23:31:30 wait that's nop 23:31:36 : swap dup >r + r> swap - ; 23:31:36 :-P 23:31:41 oh also installed lyx pulled in over 700 MB.... Sure that includes texlive, but texlive isn't THAT large 23:31:41 >R swap R> swap 23:31:42 and QT 23:31:44 but again 23:31:47 *shrug* 23:31:50 oklopol: oerjan did that for rot 23:31:55 oh 23:31:56 AnMaster: yes, texlive IS that large 23:31:58 well i did too 23:32:00 sec 23:32:05 oerjan: plz don't think about swap 23:32:06 oklopol: you too 23:32:08 need to zen out 23:32:13 i didn't know it was trivial before i tried it 23:32:13 might pick up your pesky brain waves 23:32:38 ehird, no texlive is around 300 MB installed iirc 23:32:44 QT another 50-60 maybe? 23:33:43 oerjan: i think that's the simplest way to swap 23:33:45 i mean 23:33:47 wait 23:33:48 ooh 23:33:48 aptitude > synaptics 23:33:50 maybe 23:34:00 AnMaster: Aptitude is not recommended any more. 23:34:01 Use apt-get. 23:34:13 ehird, that doesn't have a gui at all though 23:34:21 Oh, the horror. 23:34:26 Anyway, aptitude = synaptic, in semantics. 23:34:48 ehird, aptitude seems to have more advanced features. Couldn't get regex search to work in synaptic 23:34:54 stuff like that 23:34:58 ehird: so what are the exact rules, 50 without using anything but >R, R>, R@ and -? 23:35:07 maybe I missed that option 23:35:37 oklopol: yah, pretty much 23:35:44 oerjan: : swap >r dup r> + ; is a b → a a+b 23:35:54 useful start imo 23:42:34 oerjan: you can think about it now 23:42:36 oklopol: you too 23:42:38 length of that solution is 54 23:42:41 if you open it up 23:43:00 oklopol: just come up with a swap dood 23:43:10 oklopol: also it's words not chars btw 23:43:20 right 54 words. 23:43:23 ehird, or? 23:43:36 AnMaster: synaptic has everything 23:43:38 more or less 23:43:43 ehird, where is regex search then 23:43:45 anyway regex search is… you're… i can't even think of one use 23:43:47 for package name 23:43:59 ehird, ^ttf- 23:44:02 that was what I wanted 23:44:04 AnMaster: "ttf-" 23:44:09 instead of packages containing ttf in the middle too 23:44:15 ehird, there were some with ttf in the middle too 23:44:18 ttf- in the middle won't be very common. 23:44:22 note the dash. 23:44:33 ehird, stuff like -mode$ to find all emacs modes (plus some more) 23:44:42 other stuff contains -mode- too 23:44:45 and so on 23:44:50 "emacs mode" 23:45:11 ehird, why do you so hate optional advanced features 23:45:37 Blah blah I want this do this What about THIS? Ha! You can do that by doing this WHY ARE YOU SO HATEFUL 23:45:53 ehird, um.. 23:46:03 ehird, I think your solutions are suboptimal 23:46:18 and why *prevent* users from using regex if they want 23:46:20 AnMaster, apt-get install ttf-*tab tab* 23:46:26 Yeah, "emacs mode" might return a FUCKING CHICKEN. 23:46:28 FireFly, hm interesting idea 23:46:29 No wait, it'll return emacs modes. 23:46:42 >R >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> R> >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> 23:46:48 AnMaster: "idea"? 23:46:49 Reality. 23:47:02 oklopol: R> >R cancel 23:47:05 * FireFly likes the tab key 23:47:07 ehird, I tried looking for "plan9" and didn't find the user space plan 9 thing. Nor was "plan 9" very useful. And both returned lots of irrelevant results 23:47:15 so there a regex to match more strictly would have been useful 23:47:20 That's because plan 9 from user space isn't in the repos. 23:47:24 oerjan: yeah but i just removed a random amount of them so it's under 50 23:47:27 :P 23:47:28 ehird, parts are 23:47:32 ehird, I found rc at least 23:47:35 huh 23:47:36 AnMaster: That's a different rc. 23:47:39 A different version. 23:47:46 ehird, says it is from plan9 though 23:47:46 i refuse to actually find a local optimum, and i definitely refuse to make a solution from scratc. 23:47:47 h 23:47:47 hm ok 23:47:52 AnMaster: it's another port. 23:47:58 P9fUS is distributed as one, in-tree build and nothing else. 23:47:59 I see 23:48:07 oklopol: is that swap? 23:48:13 ehird: that's rot 23:48:15 ehird, even gentoo has a package for plan9port 23:48:16 :P 23:48:21 oklopol: make swap 23:48:48 * AnMaster hopes wlan works after this sleep 23:48:49 hm no 23:48:51 i just substituted the definitions in. 23:48:52 Jebus. Dick Cheney wanted to use the military for "terrorism" arrests. 23:48:57 Read: Army troops and tanks. 23:49:00 In US cities. 23:49:04 Dick Cheney should star in porn. 23:49:16 Dick Cheney and his Dick in… I Want Your "Cheney" In Me 23:49:29 Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Anti-Terrorism Enforcement 23:49:37 Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Martial Law in the Bedroom 23:49:46 Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Sexual Shooting 23:49:47 A successful triology? 23:49:48 etc. 23:49:48 Bleh 23:49:52 FireFly: Nogy. 23:49:54 N-ogy. 23:49:54 Now a quadology 23:50:10 trilorgy 23:50:16 Orgyorgy. 23:50:18 >_< 23:50:26 Mushroommushroom. 23:50:41 Much room for mushrooms? 23:50:55 Dick Cheney and his Dick in... The Patriot "Act" 23:51:22 s/\.{3}/…/ 23:51:24 s/^Dick //, i think 23:51:35 FireFly: oops, sorry 23:51:40 oerjan: But this is redundantly redundant. 23:51:47 ehird: oh actually, forgot to substitute +'s definition in; probably can't get under 50 without thinking then 23:51:58 oklopol: i don't care about rot 23:52:00 oklopol: i care about swap 23:52:18 ehird, the vol+/- buttons work. But not the mute one 23:52:29 so I guess I have to dig in ACPI stuff to make it work 23:52:40 this is ubuntu still yes 23:52:55 No one needs a mute button 23:53:03 FireFly, hah 23:53:13 I have a mute button on the controller for the speakers 23:53:17 That's enough for me 23:53:38 And the play/pause keyboard key for play/pausing Amarok 23:54:53 huh 23:55:04 the mute button works but isn't reflected in alsamixer 23:55:07 or anywhere else 23:55:10 hardware mute? 23:55:16 AnMaster: ubuntu uses pulseaudio, btw. 23:55:26 so you should look at PA stuff instead of alsa when possible. 23:56:00 ehird, well... I was going to do real time sound stuff... that means jack. 23:56:08 but maybe that isn't a good idea 23:56:13 (on ubuntu) 23:56:15 AnMaster: OSSv4, man! 23:56:23 ehird, yeah I considered it 23:56:26 seriously 23:56:29 Tiny latency, great quality, low resource usage. 23:56:33 ALSA compatibility. 23:56:35 atm I'm using jack on my desktop 23:56:45 I'm not sure OSSv4 is so easy on Ubuntu 23:56:45 but I seriously considered changing to OSSv4 23:56:46 though 23:56:54 and there are concerns about the code quality but that's not really important 23:56:55 ehird, it isn't on gentoo either iirc! 23:56:56 if it works 23:57:00 so proably 23:57:01 not 23:57:16 well it could be done it'd just require some rewiring 23:57:19 and a custom kernel 23:57:29 well not custom kernel 23:57:32 you know what i mean 23:57:36 oh? 23:57:44 ossv4 is a kernel module 23:57:52 well true 23:59:08 my mouse is transparent and has a little annoying red LED inside 23:59:13 wonder if I could open it up and take it out 23:59:38 could remove one of the pins from the scrollwheel while i'm at it to make it smoother and quieter