00:00:05 you dont have to go fast at all, if you go right up to the pole, you can just put your hand on the pole and spin around it in circles til you get dizzy 00:00:17 mycroftiv: The secret of eternal youth is going to a black hole. 00:00:27 pikhq, and doing what? 00:00:30 pikhq: and balancing on the event horizon? 00:00:33 AnMaster: nothing 00:00:33 pikhq: also secret of becoming thin 00:00:36 very thing 00:00:38 *thin 00:00:51 ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. 00:01:13 pikhq: not true - you are *eternally* visible to external observers if you fall into a black hole 00:01:23 hmm invisibility, eternal youth and thinness 00:01:26 ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. <-- is it just me or does that remind you of monty python for some reason? 00:01:28 black holes could solve all our problems. 00:01:30 not really, after a while you'll get so faint that people won't be able to see the resulting photons 00:01:31 however its true you get so red-shifted its very hard to actually see you 00:01:33 AnMaster: no 00:01:33 mycroftiv: No. 00:01:39 AnMaster: Not just you. 00:01:42 pikhq, ah 00:01:47 dammit AnMaster 00:01:53 you broke the chain of "name: no" 00:01:54 I can't think of what the sketch was though 00:01:59 ^what ais523 said, he understands what i meant 00:02:01 even pikhq continued it though accidentally 00:02:04 ehird, no I didn't. pikhq did 00:02:11 uh he did? 00:02:18 [00:01] pikhq: mycroftiv: No. 00:02:18 ehird, "not just" 00:02:18 [00:01] pikhq: AnMaster: No[…] 00:02:23 not starts with no 00:02:24 fun fact 00:02:35 ehird, true, but thought you meant the whole message 00:02:38 AnMaster: "How Not to be Seen" is the name of the sketch. 00:02:44 then pikhq would have broken it with "No." 00:02:46 since that has a dot 00:03:01 pikhq, ah yes... 00:03:22 pikhq, now I remember... 00:03:35 ehird, yes that too 00:04:21 ehird, but didn't notice the . first time 00:05:13 mycroftiv: have you seen the absurd LoseThos? 00:05:19 http://www.losethos.com/ 00:05:27 ehird: of course, i actually tried to download and run it awhile ago even 00:05:27 he has 680x480 16 colour graphics... yet 12GB of RAM 00:05:28 why? 00:05:30 aw 00:05:32 i can't ramble about it 00:05:35 i looove rambling about it and him 00:05:37 he's so crazy 00:05:44 especially his markov chain-esque godspeak 00:05:44 ive even seen him in forum debates 00:05:53 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46#comment-819 00:05:55 "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." 00:06:56 oh man 00:06:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/97qbw/12_men_went_to_the_moon_using_an_understandable/c0br1sq?context=1 00:07:00 It's got God for on-line support. (random words or passages on a plug-in hot key.) 00:07:11 he is seriously advocating using his babble program to talk to god for help using the OS 00:07:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:07:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:31 im crazy enough to appreciate the genius of that idea, but not crazy enough to think it would work 00:08:01 however the idea that sampling the 'random numbers supplied by the universe' at a given point is a way of finding hidden mechanism is something that 'most people' seem to actually believe 00:08:21 what's that meant to mean 00:08:43 ehird: thats what astrology, tarot, i ching, etc, all have as their idea - you get some random numbers, interpret them by rule, the universe hides meaning in them 00:08:52 ah. 00:09:05 mycroftiv: i'm fairly sure adherents don't consider them random per se, even with hidden meaning 00:09:08 i dont believe in it myself, but if you press people on it, they think there is 'some truth' to those things, that they 'can work sometimes, for some people' 00:09:11 that is, the meaning isn't hidden in them, they ARE the mening 00:09:24 also, it's hopeless talking to such people 00:09:35 such people fill our world, we dont have much choice but to talk to them 00:09:42 their reality is always full of hopeless contradiction and rampant subjectivism of absolutely everything; solipsist-level 00:10:01 mycroftiv: but that's what the internet is for! :P 00:10:25 what a shock everyone would get if it turned out to be true! (not that it is likely to ever turn out that way) 00:10:27 well, subjectivist philosophy is hopefully a bit more respectable than solipsism...but its true that the average person certainly retreats to patently solipsistic style reasoning if you try to engage them on the topic 00:10:59 a statement like "everyone has their own truth and words dont really mean anything" is where trying to establish a consistent framework of definitions for people's own statements usually gets to, and quickly 00:11:04 AnMaster: no 00:11:08 nobody would get a shock 00:11:11 only one person. 00:11:18 ehird, well, every scientist 00:11:27 just asking people to provide their own freely chosen definitions for the terms they use in their statements will make them very angry if you press the point, generally 00:11:27 i don't think you understand what solipsism means. 00:11:37 AnMaster: if solipsism is correct, you don't exist. 00:11:40 you are not conscious. 00:11:40 ehird, I think you are referring to something else that I did 00:11:43 my brain made you up. 00:11:47 mycroftiv too 00:11:48 ehird, I meant i ching and such 00:11:50 in fact, everyone but me 00:11:53 and tarot 00:11:54 and so on 00:11:57 ehird, ^ 00:11:59 AnMaster: your referent was very vague and delayed 00:12:03 ehird, yes it was 00:12:04 My brain made me up. 00:12:14 I am a figment of my own imagination. 00:12:38 i'm a figment of my toes 00:13:05 Your toes are a figment of your mom. 00:13:10 wow 00:14:16 shhhh, you guys are talking to loud - you guys are gonna wake the colorless green ideas, they are busy sleeping furiously 00:14:25 s/to/too/ 00:14:53 soooooooo 00:15:04 mycroftiv: what vm host do you use for plan 9 btw? 00:15:11 it's always been slow when I've tried it 00:15:22 both qemu and vmware server free beer 00:15:34 qemu was the one that was dog slow 00:15:42 also graphics drivers 00:15:43 i bet you were using qemu to do the graphics though 00:15:46 yeah, a vm with driver problems 00:15:47 oh the irony 00:15:49 mycroftiv: erm yes 00:16:07 i never have qemu do the graphics, i run my VMs as headless CPU servers and always drawterm in or just import from them 00:16:16 that doesn't give me rio. 00:16:20 yes it does 00:16:23 drawterm is rio 00:16:25 oh 00:16:36 but my middle mouse button doesn't work! 00:16:42 does in my drawterm 00:16:48 did you not set the mousetype correctly? 00:16:48 i mean in general :P 00:17:15 my middle mouse button does scrolling in plan9, as well as the 'button 2 click' functionality that is the original mouse vocabulary 00:17:24 i don't think you understand mycroftiv 00:17:27 the middle mouse button on my mouse 00:17:30 it doesn't work. 00:17:37 oh! 00:17:49 * ehird notes: to talk to mycroftiv, repeat line a lot 00:18:27 um, well, usually when someone says that 'X doesnt work' in a computer context, its at the software level - because most hardware that is broken gets unplugged and different component substituted 00:18:38 true dat 00:18:42 all my other usb mice are unusable though 00:18:49 either they don't have a scrollwheel or they're not usb mice. 00:18:58 apart from my mighty mouse 00:19:10 but in its touch-sensitive glory, the right click has become temperamental 00:19:13 if someone is installing ubuntu and says "my monitor isnt working" im gonna assume they need help with an X server problem, not a coupon to wal-mart 00:19:16 and after enough time, just stops working 00:19:27 also, this mouse feels nice. 00:20:43 that reminds me, indirectly, i think im gonna find (since someone probably already did it) or write the patch to make the horrible scrollbars in plan9 windows behave conventionally 00:20:58 i've never seen a scrollbar in plan 9 00:21:10 or maybe i have 00:21:11 * mycroftiv gives ehird new glasses 00:21:15 ah yes 00:21:17 i never use scrollbars though 00:21:18 who does? 00:21:42 hmm rio's interface could be very interesting with one of those fancy multitouch trackpads on the macbook pros 00:21:53 you could basically eliminate the window menu 00:21:55 yeah actually rio could very easily be updated to a multitouch moel and be quite nice 00:22:03 yeah 00:22:22 problem being the drivers of course 00:22:44 hmm that reminds me, when we are talking about fundamental issues... 00:23:03 "how do you do drivers?" 00:23:10 the fact that despite them being open-source, drivers are hard to reuse without extensive modification, is so frustrating 00:23:36 damn i thought i was gonna be able to rant about my os 00:23:42 but linux drivers suck. 00:24:45 the fact that the linux kernel is so competent now at handling hardware but those free software drivers havent resulted in *every* free os being equally capable is just so damn sad, but its a symptom of the deeply ad-hoc nature of how everything is engineered 00:24:55 to hell with kernsl 00:24:57 kernels 00:25:34 TO HELL 00:26:04 (that was indeed an awkward attempt to segue into talking about my OS!) 00:27:21 (instead it killed the chat) 00:27:29 uh, were waiting for you to start talking 00:27:38 with your brilliantly prepared segue having established the context 00:27:44 awwwwwwwkwaaaaaaaar 00:27:44 d 00:30:07 Sooooooooooo 00:30:11 What state are we in 00:30:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:30:27 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:30:33 im in state 'move right on tape until encountering a / ' 00:30:37 are we still waiting for me 00:31:51 well this is a multitasking preemptive IRC so we arent strictly 'waiting', if some other event occurs we can context switch to a new process 00:32:00 >_< 00:33:55 still awkward! 00:35:05 * mycroftiv slaps ehird with a large trout until he says whatever the hell he was gonna say 00:35:12 but i don't know what context we're in! 00:35:20 much *more* awkward to get trout-slapped than just say something, isnt it? 00:35:33 depends 00:36:47 fine then, have some more 00:36:51 * mycroftiv continues to troutslap ehird 00:36:59 we are not amused. 00:37:59 hdskjfhadf 00:38:52 mycroftiv: / 00:39:21 * mycroftiv removes the / from the tape and begins to travel left until encountering a blank space 00:40:12 i was going to talk about my os wasn't i 00:40:18 hands up if you want to know how hardware/drivers work in my os. 00:41:03 if we raise our hands, how can we type on our keyboards to let you know our hands are raised? 00:41:09 magic. 00:42:43 you can tell because people aren't typing 00:43:49 mycroftiv: ok you don't have to raise your hand 00:43:51 you can just type it 00:43:57 -!- Azstal has joined. 00:44:25 i hope the user interface for getting information out of your os is easier than the user interface you present in IRC for us getting the information from you 00:45:01 they differ? 00:45:33 you could raise your keyboard with your hand 00:45:42 mycroftiv: should i just start blabbing 00:45:50 19 minutes and counting currently on latency between ehird signalling the channel he had information to communicate and the delivery of said information 00:45:54 oops, we just hit 20 00:45:59 i hate you 00:46:02 SO TELL US ABOUT THE DRIVER MODEL ALREADY 00:46:08 OKAY 00:46:09 finally 00:46:13 ummm 00:46:19 wow this is going to be so anticlimatic 00:46:22 should i even bother. i wonder. 00:46:45 (mycroftiv tears out my soul.) 00:46:46 up to you, do you enjoy the troutslapping? 00:46:47 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:46:52 no. 00:46:58 GregorR-L enjoys troutslapping. 00:47:03 slap him instead. 00:47:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:47:16 i doubt he would tell me about how the drivers work in your os though. 00:47:29 so i dont see how it would maximize my utility 00:47:48 your mo 00:47:50 m 00:48:00 anyway basically 00:48:08 drivers are voluntary 00:48:10 as in 00:48:20 any object that can get another object with which to communicate directly to the hardware 00:48:26 if my hard drive driver doesnt volunteer, i cant make it work? 00:48:28 can offer its services to any other object allowed to access it 00:48:34 mycroftiv: shush you 00:48:36 so basically 00:48:42 with these decentralised driver objects 00:48:50 we can define eg interfaces 00:48:54 and supply relevant driver objects 00:48:56 and the like 00:49:04 and using some hardware is just getting the relevant object 00:49:16 a driver is just something that translates sugary messages into communication with the low-level object 00:49:23 sounds like the correct model for your os, indeed 00:49:25 nothing special, nothing in the "kernel" (there is no kernel) 00:51:18 it pleases me when stuff just fits in my model without any new "kernel" code or whatever 00:51:22 reaffirms that it's a good model 00:53:06 mycroftiv: you know, if there wasn't the issue of Other People's Things being unreliable, and slowness of the internet, I'd probably encrypt every object and distribute the storage across every other machine 00:53:17 alas those are bohh false 00:53:18 *both 00:53:21 oooooof 00:53:26 every other machine running that OS, that is 00:53:47 but drives disappear, network nodes disappear, and the internet is slow. 00:53:52 there are a couple projects in existence that do that - i forget what the main one is called 00:53:57 not surprised 00:54:07 but i dont think making that your *default* is at all sane - as you correctly have stated 00:54:23 sometimes I swear that people have never heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing 00:54:57 heh. well, believe me, i have. 00:55:08 and wow is it maddening to design around all those issues... 00:55:43 sometimes i think the notion of a computer is flawed. 00:55:45 my first big plan9 project was kind of a distributed DNS-for-9p that ties into the inferno registry, and 99.9% of my development time on it was working out how to handle every possible failure mode 00:56:11 * ehird tries to find a piece of vm software well-suited to playing with plan9 00:56:20 vmware fusion/parallels aren't suitable, they're way too windows-centric... 00:56:34 you using os x as host os? 00:56:38 yeah 00:56:39 im not sure what the best solution is for that 00:56:44 do you know about 9vx? 00:56:47 well qemu and stuff work but 00:56:52 mycroftiv: yeah, it's not reaaaaaaal plan 9 :P 00:57:01 i believe there is a pretty decent os x version of 9vx - and yes it is, especially if you use a full tree 00:57:13 but but but. 00:57:15 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:57:18 you can get the regular plan9 .iso and copy it over to your filesystem and run 9vx from it 00:57:27 the 9vx binary distribution is sadly crap, i agree 00:57:33 but but but but but but but but 00:57:37 it isn't exactly the same! 00:57:41 i know, thats true 00:57:44 it uses the host fs doesn't i 00:57:45 t 00:57:52 right, although thats kind of an advantage really 00:57:55 nooooooooooo 00:57:59 gives you natural integration between the systems 00:58:04 it is my escape from resource forks :-P 00:58:28 wait, resource forks still exist in the mac os? are you joking? or am i confused? 00:58:45 they do indeed 00:58:52 wow, i thought os x got rid of those... 00:59:08 No, it's somewhat NeXTish as well. 00:59:11 how can os x be a UNIX then? sorry, i should know this, i dont keep up on os x like i should 00:59:16 well 00:59:18 let me explain 00:59:30 here, we use = and + to mean "bastard of x, y and z" 00:59:44 ironically, i have a white plastic imac but i run gnu/linux on it, havent booted it to os x in forever and i never really learned what was up with os x before turning it into primarily leenooks box 01:00:33 Mac OS X = Darwin (derivative of XNU) + NEXTSTEP (XNU (BSD + Mach) + own stuff) + FreeBSD + Mac OS + own stuff 01:00:37 cower in fear! 01:00:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:00:52 sure i know that, conceptually - i know the hsitory, carbon, cocoa, blah blah, mach etc 01:00:55 well the Mac OS part is basically the fs 01:01:00 it uses the mac os fs with changes to make it unix-compatible 01:01:03 thus resource forks are retained 01:01:06 Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc 01:01:14 ehird: Throw in some GNU for good measure. 01:02:00 pikhq: not really 01:02:10 ... Fine, mostly just the GNU C compiler. 01:02:13 isnt BASH the shell though? 01:02:15 Which is almost everywhere. 01:02:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:02:19 mycroftiv: by default, yes 01:02:22 zsh used to be 01:02:24 mycroftiv: Which is almost everywhere. 01:02:29 ehird: No, csh. 01:02:30 pikhq: they're working on replacing gcc with llvm/clang 01:02:31 due to gpl 3 01:02:32 and no 01:02:34 it used to be zsh 01:02:39 i know this because i have used os x 10.2 01:02:40 No. That was csh. 01:02:44 no 01:02:45 it was not 01:02:48 That shit was C shell. 01:02:50 it used to be tcsh 01:02:52 then it was zsh 01:02:54 then it was bash 01:03:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:32 mycroftiv: is there a way to get 9vx to use a big file as a block device? 01:05:35 if so, then I'll consider using it 01:05:55 well, sure, of course 01:06:19 you can either just run fossil/venti (if thats the idea) from flat files, or you could use devfs to make virtual devices from them 01:06:27 yeah, I wanted to use fossil 01:06:40 basically I just want a plan 9 system whose kernel doesn't get emulated.userspace 01:06:44 s/userspace$// 01:06:56 you can make a fossil, problem is that without patching that fossil wont be your *boot* fossil which i gather is also what you want? 01:07:27 well, yes. 01:07:42 right, thats possible, but it starts to get into the realm of patching-and-hacking 01:07:52 i'll just use a fast vm + drawterm i guess 01:08:10 night 01:08:16 good night 01:08:22 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:35 since you are using os x, i unfortunately cant really push my own toolchain on you, since i distribute it in linux-centric form 01:09:15 otherwise id be saying you should download my gridtools stuff since its all set up as a true modular multinode plan9 system already 01:11:01 the thing about plan9 thats frustrating is that the base bell labs .iso distribution is so far removed from a fully configured setup that most people never get to the point of experiencing the whole purpose of the os, since there is a ton of not-very-graceful admin stuff required to make the 'magic' happen 01:13:25 ehird: thats why your ideas i think are fundamentally sound - to express things crudely, you want to 'cut out the middleman' of all the annoying implementation/administrative details of running a computer, by making the upper and lower layers more conceptually unified. 01:13:53 of course, as a basic concept that isnt new and in some ways that is what everyone (and every failed and awkward system) was trying to achieve :D 01:14:48 thats not criticism, just an acknowledgment of the difficulties of the task and a recognition that smart people have been trying to make sane and sensible systems for a long time 01:17:20 Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc <-- doesn't load Sgeo 01:17:22 at all 01:19:15 back 01:19:19 wb 01:20:47 mycroftiv: i do want to cut out the middleman, I think yours is incidental though 01:20:51 my main driver is: 01:20:56 well two things 01:21:06 one, we have so much useless work 01:21:07 like 01:21:11 we separate tasks too much 01:21:16 we separate application from application 01:21:17 ITS 01:21:20 we separate objects from disk 01:21:22 AnMaster, the page apparently is a 302 status code, which goes to an HTML page that uses a meta tag to go to the proper place 01:21:27 AnMaster, check the source? 01:21:29 mycroftiv: and the second, 01:21:37 we have too much duplication 01:21:38 so many VMs 01:21:41 so many garbage collectors 01:21:44 Sgeo, can't. get a "connection reset during loading" message 01:21:44 so many address books 01:21:49 so many everythings 01:21:56 Sgeo, so don't even get past HTTP headers I guess 01:22:01 Does http://www.farmingdale.edu/campuspages/campusaffiliates/lieoc/index.html work? 01:22:01 well, all of those things you are saying sound to me like many of them fit conceptually into the broad idea of 'cut out the middleman' 01:22:03 as a result of fixing those two everything fits together 01:22:05 mycroftiv: yeah 01:22:07 they do 01:22:15 Sgeo, nop 01:22:18 also, link to your toolchain thing anyway? 01:22:21 Sgeo, or rather, a bit 01:22:44 Sgeo, I get headers but no document 01:22:54 Huh 01:22:55 200 that is 01:23:07 Sgeo, note: cookies and javascript are *off* 01:23:09 mycroftiv: even if i can't use it i'm interested 01:23:15 AnMaster, that may well be it 01:23:18 ehird: 9gridchan.org is my website with tons of plan9 related stuff, a full explanation and context is maybe offtopic for this channel but feel free to ask whatever 01:23:26 Sgeo, not going to turn them on 01:23:36 9gridchan, is that like a 4chan derivative on a grid? 01:23:41 :P 01:23:46 what's this #s 01:23:47 ehird: uh, not really, but sort of, yeah 01:24:12 how on earth is it sort of :P 01:24:27 The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 01:24:31 well, its a grid that anyone can connect to so that is chan-like 01:24:49 i was referring more to things like 4chan → 7chan and the like 01:24:52 i think the chan imageboards are some of the better stuff on the net conceptually, free speech, simple interface, no barrier to entry, etc 01:24:54 distributed pointlessness! 01:25:03 mycroftiv: yeah i know all the arguments in favour of them 01:25:41 mycroftiv, you think /b/ is "[one] of the better stuff on the net conceptually"? 01:25:45 ;P 01:25:49 AnMaster: ad hominem, strawman 01:25:53 you lose 01:25:55 (yeah I know what you mean) 01:25:57 ehird, no 01:25:59 (more strawman than ad hominem) 01:26:02 ehird, it is a joke :P 01:26:07 AnMaster: well, if you read my actual text above, that isnt what i said, so i think the statement i made was pretty clear 01:26:13 the only flaw with your jokes AnMaster 01:26:19 is that none of them are ever funny or carry any hint of being jokes. 01:26:22 ehird, is that I forget ~ 01:27:09 The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 <-- and? 01:27:39 Did you look at it? .style7 ? 01:28:03 Sgeo, not good names. and? 01:28:19 * Sgeo was facepalming at the bad names 01:28:21 mycroftiv, on your website... what is bind -a '#¤' /dev 01:28:27 that looks like encoding error to me 01:28:41 using firefox 01:29:07 yup, that does indeed look like an error, lets check the original ns to see what it should be 01:29:19 mycroftiv, and what does the #b and such mean? 01:29:37 those are how plan9 talks about binding device drivers into the namespace, pretty much 01:29:44 hm ok 01:29:57 mycroftiv: isn't /srv mostly used? 01:29:59 at least that's what i saw 01:30:01 ah ok, yup, thats a weird unicode symbol that clearly has a different visual appearance 01:30:22 mycroftiv, make web server send correct encoding :) 01:30:26 ehird: well /srv is where the user level file servers usually post themselves for stuff to mount, but the kernel level drivers work a bit differently i would say 01:30:47 mycroftiv: so this drawterm stuff, what do i have to do to get it working? 01:31:06 ehird: from what base are you starting? default bell labs .iso installed into a vm, or ? 01:31:25 well, I have the iso and nothing else 01:31:37 the less friction this takes to get working the better 01:31:51 ehird, this is plan9... what do you think 01:32:00 AnMaster: okay, fuck off, seriously 01:32:10 for the last hours all you've done is dis plan 9 and other crap 01:32:11 as in: it isn't smoothly polished ubuntu. 01:32:17 ehird, I like plan9 as I said 01:32:20 read above 01:32:23 hm, how much plan9 related spam tech/support do you want in this channel? 01:32:29 you like it in the most vaguest, tenuous sense possible 01:32:33 just enough so you can hate on it all the time 01:32:39 and i never said i wanted ubuntu; strawman fallacy 01:32:45 I just find it amusing that you think it will work out of box more or less 01:32:48 i said i wanted the least frictionful way possible 01:32:50 ehird, ^ 01:32:55 AnMaster: i've used plan 9. it worked out of the box 01:32:58 and did i ever say that? 01:32:59 no 01:33:04 i never said i wanted it working out of the box 01:33:05 ehird, close 01:33:08 night 01:33:09 no 01:33:12 not close at all 01:33:14 you are truly excelling putting words in my mouth 01:33:18 new heights of strawman 01:33:53 AnMaster: ironically, i actually provide preconfigured preinstalled plan9 systems that instantiate a full 4 functional node grid on your desktop out of the box, but i only provide that for linux ;) 01:34:05 mycroftiv: impossible, that doesn't fit his biases 01:34:20 mycroftiv, awesome and now I really need to sleep *turns off monitor* 01:34:58 inferno has always confused me 01:35:02 why do you want an OS that can only run virtualised? 01:35:20 actually inferno can also run natively, but that isnt very common except on small devices 01:35:26 like inferno on the nintendo ds 01:35:28 well w/e 01:35:53 i dunno, you dont like sqweak right? well its not too different from that - or from java in a different way, i mean java is real world popular. 01:36:07 nah 01:36:10 java just has a vm underneath 01:36:14 that's basically an implementation detail 01:36:16 but besides, whats an os, whats software? i think its a false dichotomy 01:36:26 well, think of inferno as the vm implementation for the limbo language 01:36:29 you ever looked at limbo? 01:36:30 absolutely 01:36:35 i'm not making an os, i'm making a system 01:36:45 it boots up and comes with a set of base objects "absolutely free" 01:37:00 mycroftiv: i've seen limbo. 01:37:02 thats good, im tired of paying $5 per boot 01:37:06 looks like a pretty boring lang tbh 01:37:43 i havent learned it, but a lot of people like it for its concurrency/message passing features i guess - and by 'a lot of people' i mean 'a handful of people with plan9/inferno interests' 01:38:47 limbo is actually maybe the most 'on topic' thing from the plan9 universe for this channel - well, that and alef of course 01:38:55 mm 01:39:07 mycroftiv: how smoothly does plan9 run with qemu/drawterm? 01:39:16 very nicely in my experience, even on moderate hardware 01:39:39 I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. 01:39:39 qemu is basically the slowest emulator apart from bochs 01:39:39 much better than with qemu providing the graphics 01:39:39 you aren't using the kqemu thing are you? 01:39:39 i can't 01:39:39 it's linux only 01:39:57 GregorR-L: make a cellular automata whose atoms are cellular automata 01:40:01 i use kqemu on some boxes but not all, and even without it, i get performance that i find acceptable 01:40:05 and use a CA to generate CAs 01:40:15 but for all i know qemu on os x is even slower than slow, i dunno 01:40:15 *brain explodes* 01:40:15 mycroftiv: ok. so how easy is drawterm to set up? 01:40:34 ehird: well, let me give you the canonical 'how to' link for how to do it from the default install from the .iso, one second 01:41:04 ehird: http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Configuring_a_standalone_CPU_server/index.html 01:41:23 that is Ye Olde Testamente of how to take your default install and make it a standalone cpu auth server you can drawterm into 01:41:23 i love how they call it a wiki, it's been read only for like 8945349534 years 01:41:36 anyway looks irritatingly complicated. 01:41:37 its not read only as a matter of fact 01:41:46 and yes, that is exactly why i made the tools i did, because its ridiculous 01:41:47 mycroftiv: i mounted it and couldn't save. 01:41:57 really? hmm... 01:42:02 this was a few months ago 01:42:42 -!- Zonbi has joined. 01:42:55 -!- Zonbi has left (?). 01:43:09 impatient man 01:44:27 mycroftiv: so, any particular recommendation or should i just set up qemu 01:45:05 well, im hesitant to make any os x recommendations, honestly - i get the sense from reading 9fans that os x is a bit different in what the optimal strategies are 01:45:18 it's an odd OS 01:45:45 ive found that qemu seems to be most generally reliable plan9 virtualization platform for the oses ive worked with it in, which is various gnu/linux distros, windows xp and vista, and freebsd 01:46:19 how big do you recommend i make the disk? 01:46:24 if you are going to use qemu, you could try the standalone version of the preinstalled image i distribute btw 01:46:33 what does that get me over the stock? 01:46:43 drawterm out of the box, additional configuration work done 01:46:49 sounds nice 01:46:54 anything to emulate a middle mouse button? :P 01:47:04 anyway link me up 01:47:14 um, doesnt plan9 have something to do that anyway? some key combo or something?i should know this 01:47:22 dunno 01:47:23 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz 01:47:29 isn't qcow compressed? 01:47:42 that is a .tgz of a single file which is a qcow2 preinstalled hdd image 01:47:56 a tar of a single file? 01:47:57 is the meaning of that question "why bother to .tgz it?" 01:47:57 are you nuts 01:48:09 ehird: no, im not nuts at all! :) want the method for the madness? 01:48:13 also, no, it's just "isn't qcow = compressed = slow?" 01:48:16 and sure i guess 01:48:32 no, the way qemu handles qcow2 is pretty efficient 01:48:34 Qcow is copy on write, not compressed. 01:48:46 ah. 01:48:51 And a few other silly things to maximise sparseness. 01:48:52 Q.app tells me it's compressed 01:48:52 ok, its very simply this - most people want/need to preserve the archival initial copy of the VM 01:48:54 so it sucks :P 01:49:13 if you provide a .tgz, the standard command line tar xzf foo.tgz leaves the original .tgz behind unchanged 01:49:30 mycroftiv: don't plan 9 guys oppose hacks 01:49:48 this is very convenient and useful, in comparison to a .gz where the ungzip will annihilate the original, and then youll fuck up your vm since you dont understand plan9 and have to redownload... 01:49:51 mycroftiv: btw does this image use venti 01:49:58 ehird: no, not in that standalone version 01:50:02 god 01:50:03 good 01:51:20 the file is badly named, its called 'ventigridserver' because its actually the version of the image that can be used to *host* a venti for other nodes to use 01:51:31 should it be .qcow2.img or just .qcow2 01:51:32 but it doesnt do that by default, or use venti itself as its backing store 01:51:44 iirc stuff is .qcow2.img 01:52:31 how much ram should i allocate? I have 2.5gb 01:52:42 for drawterm you also need to deal with the port redirections needed to access the vm, im not sure of the details of that in os x - 256mb for the vm is plenty of ram, plenty 01:52:53 also, do I really need to redirect ports for localhost? 01:53:06 finally, will anything break if I boot this with graphics? 01:53:18 the vm has to be able to listen on those ports even for localhost - and no, you can boot the image fine as standard graphical vm 01:53:36 it includes the standard initial terminal/glenda setup from bell labs as an option 01:53:48 but no gui? 01:53:56 in plan9 terminal is GUI 01:53:58 rio started automatically for me when using the iso 01:53:59 difference of vocabulary 01:54:07 mycroftiv: acme won't run under the console 01:54:13 im saying its GUI( 01:54:14 ah 01:54:15 aieee 01:54:17 it chose for me 01:54:28 do i want glenda or gridna? 01:54:35 either 01:54:41 :< 01:54:48 eenie meenie miney mo 01:54:53 glenda 01:55:04 mycroftiv: btw, what's the done plan9 thing for users? 01:55:05 thats the base standard setup 01:55:10 whee, alggy indowing system 01:55:14 *laggy windowing 01:55:15 what do you mean? 01:55:20 as in, 01:55:32 when using plan 9 it was a pain to get a user running with the ability to administrate 01:55:50 no its not, i can tell you how 01:55:56 bootes is set up on that image though as the admin/root 01:56:05 you can add your own user to admin stuff easy though 01:56:29 shift+right = middle 01:56:59 ok, if I can get a user set up here and then drawterm that'd be ideal 01:57:04 btw, are we dragging #esoteric too far offtopic? if so i have a channel for my various plan9 projects on here called #plan9chan 01:57:31 dude, we haven't been on topic for years 01:57:45 admittedly this diversion is rather *extended*, but 01:57:47 Dude, we're more often off topic than on. 01:57:54 Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 01:58:00 ehird: Actually, we've been on topic on occasion. 01:58:09 But. That's a rare occasion. 01:58:13 speaking of being off topic, does anyone here do K? 01:58:18 WHOA 01:58:21 an idler just spoke 01:58:24 what do we do whatdowedo 01:58:30 olegfink: oklopol does J 01:58:32 ... Oleg? 01:58:34 well, that should have happened someday 01:58:35 no 01:58:36 not that oleg 01:58:47 Okay. Not a demigod, then. 01:58:50 have to spend a few minutes on phone, brb 01:58:54 Fun fact: more than one person is named Oleg 01:58:59 yes, I'm in almost no way mr. Kiselev 01:59:00 olegfink: your new name is "inferior oleg" 01:59:43 again, if I've correctly identified the oleg you're talking about, I doubt he's likely to be found on irc 01:59:53 okmij.org 01:59:57 but yeah he doesn't irc. 02:00:38 so yeah! that's what makes me the /other/ one, right? 02:00:46 no, the inferior one 02:00:52 damn. 02:00:59 it's okay inferior oleg 02:01:02 you're just inferior. 02:01:18 see, I'm not arguing. 02:01:33 that's good. 02:01:40 arguing breeds rebellion. 02:02:42 after all, I only do saner stuff with ocaml... actually running ocamlrun on bare hardware was about as far as I got... *bursts in tears* 02:02:52 wow you did that? awesome. 02:03:46 anyway, back to k... there are many j programmers, but I just need some place to ask stupid k questions. 02:04:30 i don't really get why someone would use k over j 02:05:13 ehird, well, it used(s) das u-boot for the dirty init work, and worked more or less when run in the orienting the board in the right direction. 02:05:28 orienting the ... board? 02:05:39 (that was about ocamlrun) 02:06:02 i repeat my question 02:06:37 yeah, it was an arm9 thing with fpga, but I never got to actually use it, though the whole project was about playing with metaocaml 02:07:51 re k over j, why someone would use airbuses over sea liners? 02:08:29 When you should be using a interstellar spaceship instead. 02:08:35 olegfink: begging the question 02:09:09 j is an executable mathematical notation that is particularly efficient in number theory applications, k is just a cool general-purpose functional language 02:09:21 ermmmmmm 02:09:24 the languages are hugely similar 02:09:28 from what i've seen 02:11:05 i have very limited knowledge of j, but from what I know its set of primitives is much larger, the syntax is both more powerful and more complicated 02:12:43 j has more primitives?! 02:12:46 I don't know how many people use j as a general-purpose language, as they use the usual ocaml, haskell or c 02:12:47 its vocab fits on one page of 3 cols 02:13:03 Ah, C++: [](){}(); 02:13:10 iirc yes 02:13:26 pikhq: wat 02:13:27 eg things like +:, >: etc.? 02:13:35 olegfink: all of it 02:13:46 ehird: That's a noöp. 02:13:52 pikhq: oh C++ not C 02:14:00 Yeah. 02:14:51 well, K doesn't have them, it has about 50 primitives 02:15:10 http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm seems to list slightly more. 02:15:48 eh 02:15:55 i'm sure k has more actual functions than 50 02:15:58 just maybe in libraries 02:15:59 i.e. 02:16:07 the typical k program isn't just going to be compositions of 50 funcs 02:16:30 aye, I'm not counting things like trigonometric functions (yes, K has no o.!) 02:17:33 k seems very much more secret and corporate 02:17:55 and indeed it is 02:18:05 not counting the fact that it is no longer marketed 02:18:17 uggggg 20 minutes of trying to explain the basics of networking to a teenage kid trying to freeload off his neighbor's wireless with a 10 year old laptop 02:18:40 mycroftiv: why bother? 02:18:55 ehird: i was trying to avoid it, its my gf's kid 02:19:14 heh 02:19:17 but hey, K has no trains! 02:19:19 and no forks. 02:19:27 the fact that i dont even use windows enough to know how to access the networking control panel doesnt help, either 02:19:27 olegfink: shit sux 02:19:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:19:37 it's just C with lisp semantics and apl syntax... 02:19:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:20:48 but I can't give an objective comparison as I've never written anything big enough in J 02:21:15 j doesn't do big programs 02:21:41 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:22:30 http://freetexthost.com/rvsaogqp2y ← woah man. 02:22:35 I'm taking that into account when using the term 'big'. I think my largest ever J program was 3 lines. 02:23:20 olegfink: heh :) 02:24:19 it was that big because I never quite got how to do simple file i/o in J the right way. 02:27:30 olegfink: 'j for c programmers' might help and is included in the docs 02:27:37 it has file io in the first example 02:30:23 iirc it didn't help me, but maybe I was just too sleepy when I was reading jfc 02:30:44 what I needed was basically read some numbers from a text file, output some numbers 02:30:53 e.g. acm icpc-style i/o 02:30:57 the first example has that 02:33:05 well, honestly, I don't remeber what my problem was, maybe it was about parsing the string for integers, but I remeber seeing that example (is http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/continuing_to_write_in_j.htm#_Toc191734364 what you're talking about?). 02:33:49 nuh uh 02:34:06 http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/a_first_look_at_j_programs.htm 02:36:12 seems the magic I haven't had mastered at that time was a proper ReadFile ;-) 02:37:12 olegfink: eh? 02:38:47 I recall some problems with CRLF confusing J or something... meh, I can't find my code. 02:39:06 why are you using crlf :P 02:39:40 * GregorR-L has CRLF on highlight. 02:39:43 Who's using CRLF? 02:39:43 EVIL 02:39:52 xD 02:39:56 why is it on highlight? 02:40:07 So that I can harass people who use CRLF 02:40:24 :D 02:40:24 CR+LF 02:40:25 We must rid ourselves of this vile plague. 02:40:26 CR, LF 02:40:29 iirc CRLF in J is a list of CR and LF 02:40:29 13 10 02:40:36 I was kidding, I don't actually have CRLF on highlight :P 02:40:40 GregorR-L: lawl 02:40:46 what about classic mac os and its CR 02:40:56 Makes me go ":/" 02:41:41 In quotes, no less. 02:41:41 tbh in 1983 it wouldn't have been as crazy 02:43:00 mycroftiv: i had something queued up to say but i forgot. 02:43:25 ehird: oh? 02:43:28 yeah 02:43:30 exciting eh 02:43:40 mycroftiv: incidentally does plan 9 have any text antialiasing mechanisms? 02:43:51 ehird: you can download some different subpixel hinted fonts if you want 02:44:00 it's... encoded in the font? 02:44:02 x_x 02:44:52 i honestly dont know the details, but i know if you want smoothed fonts, theres some stuff you can download - im oblivious to fonts having grown up on 40 column all caps displays and thinking that all modern displays post 2000 look fine 02:45:26 * ehird whacks mycroftiv with the typography/display nerd bat 02:45:31 It's a bat that you whack people with. 02:46:23 i do know that the plan9 fonts that many disdain are in fact also NONFREE for some bizarre reason and that one traditional annoyance of various things is that the fonts arent freely redistributable separate from plan 9 02:47:25 mycroftiv: Learn typography! 02:47:36 pikhq: Shut up, X11 user. 02:47:41 Also. What the crap? Bitmap fonts? 02:47:43 pikhq: i make plenty of typos! 02:47:48 ehird: I at least freely admit it's shitty. 02:47:48 If you really loved typography, you'd sacrifice every other value for it. 02:47:55 Well, freetype, not X11. 02:48:28 ehird: Idea: Display TeX. 02:48:29 :P 02:48:37 ehird: bitmap fonts don't need any antialiasing.. just get a higher resolution display. :-) 02:48:54 pikhq: TeX's actual font rendering isn't that good 02:49:01 olegfink: (a) that makes them incy wincy 02:49:11 (b) i'd spend $$$ for a 600dpi display, hells yeah 02:49:22 ehird: Yeah, but that's the only thing it doesn't do all that well. 02:49:28 pikhq: unicode 02:49:42 also, implementing smart quotes by making `` and '' freakin' ligatures 02:49:44 Oh, right. Straight TeX doesn't do that. 02:49:51 * pikhq hugs XeTeX. 02:49:52 I heard TeX doesn't really make coffee as well. 02:49:58 olegfink: tru dat 02:51:05 anyway, leaving for the weekend. thanks for the time. 02:51:13 Ĝis. 02:51:20 bye olegfink 03:00:28 bye 03:00:32 -!- ehird has quit. 03:14:16 -!- amca has joined. 03:42:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:28 -!- alexlyoko94 has joined. 03:48:42 -!- alexlyoko94 has left (?). 04:13:00 -!- xim_ has joined. 04:13:38 -!- xim_ has left (?). 04:14:59 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has joined. 04:16:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_. 04:16:57 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:17:13 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo[Circe]. 04:17:17 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:51:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:51:07 Hello oerjan, and welcome to #esoteric 04:51:58 hello botty one 04:56:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?). 04:56:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:56:59 Hello bsmntbombdood, and welcome to #esoteric 04:57:05 barf 05:03:06 It's a client with a very easy scripting API 05:03:22 And for that YOU DIE. 05:03:28 Probably the least powerful one ever conceived, but still 05:03:33 XD 05:03:59 The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 05:09:06 ..no comments? 05:09:28 Is it Turing-complete? 05:09:40 ..? 05:09:47 How does that apply to an API? 05:09:58 I think it a valid question at all times. 05:10:05 ALL TIMES. 05:11:09 Good night all 05:11:33 good turing-complete night 05:15:29 More off-topicness: I have been reading the comic "Sandman". 05:15:30 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has quit ("Circe: http://circe.nick125.com/"). 05:15:36 'Tis truly grand. 05:19:40 pikhq: Im curious: are you turing complete? 05:20:18 that is not a valid question 05:20:55 the "Is it" is essential. "are you" does not work. 05:22:07 Thank you for that, oerjan. 05:24:37 Sorry, you right. 05:24:51 pikhq: Is it turing complete? 05:25:02 Where "it" is pikhq 05:25:54 only in the same way as 1 is even, where 1 = 2 05:26:23 amca: For certain values of Turing. 05:26:35 lol 05:30:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later, in a non-computable way"). 05:34:48 -!- nescience has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Warrigal has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Robdgreat has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Dewio has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:49 -!- Warrigal_ has joined. 05:34:50 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 05:34:52 -!- Dewi has joined. 05:34:59 -!- nescience has joined. 05:37:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:50:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:50:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:00:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:33:04 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 08:39:50 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 09:01:06 -!- coppro has joined. 09:10:25 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:13:21 -!- M0ny has quit (Client Quit). 09:13:35 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:15:26 hi 10:11:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:26:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:32:30 I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. <-- ECAs? size-5 of what? 10:32:35 * AnMaster just woke up btw 10:53:54 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:55:29 -!- coppro has joined. 10:57:46 ECA ("elementary cellular automaton") is at least what Wolfram calls the "rule N" things. Which have a size-3 neighborhood, but you could easily imagine adding the next two neighbors too. 11:27:35 ah right 11:28:29 is the number of possible rules limited btw? 11:28:44 given the same size of neighborhood I mean 11:40:38 Uh, of course. There are only 256 of the elementary ones, for one thing. 11:44:58 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:48:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:19:27 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:04:01 fizzie: If you disregard trivial permutations of other rules, there are only 64 ECAs. 13:18:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:18:48 -!- morenel has joined. 13:18:49 hi 13:18:53 whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? 13:18:58 frightens the shit out of me 13:19:07 Python? 13:19:41 not brainfuck? 13:19:46 ah 13:19:47 yes pyton 13:34:03 python: widely considered the most terrifying language 13:35:08 Actually it's pretty swell 13:35:26 only if you don't stop to think 13:35:31 about the terrible secret of whitespace 13:35:35 and what is hiding in it 13:36:29 I am here to protect you from the terrible secret of whitespace 13:36:37 Whitespace has a terrible power 13:37:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:45:36 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:08 -!- lament has joined. 14:00:41 -!- ehird has joined. 14:01:17 hah 14:01:23 21:03:59 The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 14:01:23 21:09:06 ..no comments? 14:01:23 but nobody carse 14:01:24 cares 14:01:25 whoa morenel 14:01:28 haven't seen you here before etc 14:01:34 ok hi 14:01:45 my logreading has not yet seen you 14:01:53 ? 14:01:56 ok 14:01:58 im new then? 14:03:09 i gathered :P 14:03:19 python frightens you? well me too but for less trivial reasons 14:03:24 -!- jix has joined. 14:03:32 yeah 14:07:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:07:53 ophidiophobia? 14:07:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 14:08:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:10:57 lament: what 14:11:00 *wat 14:13:16 ꊀ 14:22:19 lament: a U man with wavy arms and a penis? 14:22:37 wat 14:23:28 looks like it zoomed in 14:26:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:28:57 -!- SimonRC has joined. 14:54:09 lament: well? 14:57:01 wat 15:05:01 [14:13] lament: ꊀ 15:05:05 oh is the letter called wat or something 15:05:43 wat 15:05:53 14:13? 15:06:04 you live in the past, man 15:06:23 'YI SYLLABLE WAT' (U+A280) 15:06:31 lament: i know 15:06:33 the pasty paste 15:06:35 with pasta 15:06:36 past 15:24:05 Best source code ever... [ASCIIPIC?] http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c 15:24:08 WOW YOU CAN ADD WHITESPACE 15:24:11 :OOOOO 15:25:53 Slow-ass US mirrors... http://www.de.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c 15:27:36 who cares, it's a boring entry 15:28:01 It's cute but simple ASCII art 15:29:05 yes, but shit like that can be automated for chrissake 15:29:46 Hence "simple" 15:29:57 i'm not dissing it 15:30:02 but it's at the top of proggit 15:30:22 Yep 15:31:53 which sux :P 15:32:26 There's been worse stuff at the top of proggit 15:33:59 meh 15:56:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:10:39 ehird: There's much better IOCCC entries. 16:10:43 yep 16:10:51 btw let's start using there're 16:10:52 Why not the bit of code that calculates Pi based on its own area? 16:10:54 instead of there's → there are 16:11:29 Or the bootstrapping subset-of-C compiler? 16:25:03 no fabrice bellard allowed 16:25:04 he 16:25:06 's just too clever 16:25:28 there're a problem with that idea 16:25:32 what 16:26:00 don't swear. 16:26:22 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:26:37 lament: umm care to clarify are you just on crack 16:26:40 *or are 16:27:47 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:29:07 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:36:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:38:36 whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? 16:38:42 haskell too 16:38:53 if by "flow" you mean "structure" 16:39:21 so basically 16:39:27 every good language there is! 16:39:35 :D 16:39:37 lament: Not quite. 16:39:43 ... There exists F#. 16:40:11 * oerjan now accuses pikhq of being John D. Harrop 16:40:56 not very probable, i know, he wouldn't be able to mention F# that rarely in this channel 16:41:11 Hahah. 16:41:22 And he wouldn't be derogatory concerning the language. 16:41:32 wait, that was derogatory? 16:41:34 does Whitespace count? 16:41:59 oerjan: "Every good language there is!" "Not quite. There exists F#." 16:42:13 oerjan: I'm at least under the impression that F# has indentation-significant syntax. 16:42:16 pikhq: ok so F# _is_ indentation sensitive, but not good? i don't know it, so i interpreted it the other possible way 16:42:51 Asztal: probably 16:42:54 oerjan: It's a .Net "functional" programming language. 16:43:03 Uhh, pikhq. pikhq. 16:43:10 F# = OCaml for .NET. 16:43:18 It isn't indentation-significant. 16:43:25 oh i didn't mean "don't know" in the never heard about it sense. i just haven't seen the syntax. 16:43:27 ehird: Okay, then. 16:43:27 Harrop is a retard, but stop the FUD :P 16:43:42 F# is still an awful language, though. 16:43:52 Really, now? 16:43:59 It's just OCaml with access to .NET stuff. 16:44:09 Nothing spectacular, but I find it hard to hate. 16:44:13 "You got .Net in my functional language!" "You got your functional language in my .Net!" "YAY!" 16:44:24 ehird: I find the concept distasteful. ;) 16:44:24 it's a chimera, i guess. since ocaml already sort of is. 16:44:33 pikhq: OCaml is object-oriented already. 16:44:33 and it adds .NET to that 16:44:39 Binding .NET does not muddy the language at all. 16:45:00 ehird: My complaints are two-fold: OCaml, and .NET. 16:45:06 ehird: i doubt the type systems are compatible. 16:45:11 You just hate every language that isn't Haskell. 16:45:21 Not *every* language! 16:45:31 ... There's something to be said for the untyped lambda calculus. 16:45:34 have you ever actually used OCaml 16:45:35 :P 16:45:36 i hate every language that is or isn't Haskell 16:45:45 No, I'm just being silly on IRC. 16:46:02 i recall reading that F# does type inference somewhat unintuitively for classes 16:46:43 (since hindley-milner does not go well with subtyping) 16:47:03 Subtyping is nice. 16:47:13 I want subtyping a lot when Haskelling. 16:52:37 AnMaster: lambert is being very sensible today 17:14:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:27:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:35:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:04 Sooooooooo 17:37:10 s/ $// 17:39:40 oh wo 17:39:40 w 17:39:41 ^ul (S)::^(~:(o)~^~:^):^ 17:39:41 Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output! 17:39:44 i think i dreamed something 17:39:48 then forgot it was a dream later 17:39:48 :D 17:42:39 i think i do that a lot 17:44:50 yes, you are already forgetting that this is a dream 17:44:58 wow, trippy 17:59:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:08:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:09:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:09:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:09:42 * pikhq is now on ext4. 18:24:47 "I am an atheist who wants to become religious again. Ask me anything." // grr @ people who don't make a distinction between dogmatic atheism and rationalism 18:24:48 ahem 18:24:49 anyway 18:24:50 pikhq: awesome 18:24:59 you're running ext3 except with extents! 18:25:05 wait no 18:25:11 you're running ext2 except with journaling and extents 18:25:59 ehird: And btrees. 18:26:06 tru dat 18:45:24 -!- ehird has set topic: This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 19:00:02 -!- JoelyWoely has joined. 19:00:37 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:00:44 -!- JoelyWoely has changed nick to CESSMASTER. 19:06:29 ehird: i love you. 19:06:43 why thank you augur 19:07:24 thae topic is brilliant 19:08:37 thanks, i wrote that in february i think :P 19:09:17 despite being nearly unable to type due to the biting cold 19:09:27 wat 19:09:39 angkor 19:09:58 oejan: you stole that from me :| 19:10:08 stole what? 19:10:15 saying angkor in response to wat 19:10:32 angkor in response to wat 19:10:33 SUE ME 19:10:34 it's pretty obvious 19:10:40 well thats what i thought 19:10:43 but noone fucking gets it 19:10:47 i actually guessed oerjan would do it this time :) 19:10:51 augur: i had to google it first time. 19:10:58 sometimes i say thom 19:11:13 because angkor thom is both more obscure and more interestng than angkor wat 19:11:30 and that just confuses people. :D 19:11:48 SOMETIMES i say "soup" and people are like "huh?" 19:11:53 so i clarify with "wat soup" 19:11:57 and they're still confused 19:12:05 Fun fact: the OS X system sound "Sosumi" (so sue me) was a reference to Apple Corps v. Apple Computer; it's a xylophone, so technically that counts as distributing music (tenuously) 19:12:15 (Proof from Infallopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi) 19:12:19 so i explain that its a kind of soup form around angkor wat in cambodia, used to greet people 19:12:42 what, really? 19:12:59 Phallopedia 19:13:35 augur: no such thing, says google 19:13:44 no such thing as what 19:13:53 phallopedia 19:14:14 lol 19:14:15 Infallopedia 19:14:18 Phallopedia 19:14:21 let's make Phalluspedia 19:14:35 hehehe 19:14:35 an encyclopedia about cocks 19:14:35 Phallus 19:14:35 ...and roosters 19:14:41 * oerjan swats ehird for mangling greek morphology 19:14:47 er wait 19:14:55 * oerjan forgot the swatter -----### 19:14:56 * augur's phallus swats oerjan for etc 19:14:59 xD 19:15:01 zen swatter 19:15:21 .. 19:15:38 zwatter 19:15:47 .... I'm so edgy because I use the wrong number of dots 19:16:23 zwitter 19:17:04 zwikipedia 19:17:14 zwicky 19:17:42 The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s 19:17:46 ense/to cut off a poem on the brink. 19:17:52 ↑ WORST POEM EVER 19:18:23 Also weird rhyming scheme; ABAsortofBBA 19:18:52 !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude sense/to cut off a poem on the brink." 19:18:53 176 19:19:10 !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s" 19:19:11 140 19:19:25 Bitch. That was the joke. 19:19:25 i was gonna check that 19:19:29 :P 19:19:33 http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Staples-Center/photo//090807/482/014ee302e9be4f0a89a4eeca91a2e595//s:/ap/20090808/ap_en_ot/us_michael_jackson_insurance;_ylt=AgTPYYGRfmU9P0ms7L75FsZY24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dmZwOWFyBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDaW50aGlzaGFuZG91 << look at me i'm michael jackson and i rehearse in CG environments that are photoshopped poorly! 19:20:23 is that his lips 19:21:50 some day photoshopping will get so good that no one manages to detect it, at least officially. unofficially mental hospitals start filling up with CG experts who claim they can detect photoshopping artifacts in reality. 19:22:03 :D 19:23:13 oerjan have i told you my reasoning for why the world might be a simulation? x3 19:23:59 possibly not 19:24:20 WELL 19:24:57 succinct reasoning. 19:25:08 long story short, 3, maybe 4 of the features of the universe's fundamental design are the sort of thing you'd add to a large scale universe simulation to make it easier to computer 19:25:10 compute* 19:26:14 augur 19:26:16 stfu 19:26:18 :D 19:26:21 the simulation argument is wrong. 19:26:33 it probably is, but even so its fun 19:27:31 um 19:27:40 what are these three maybe four features 19:28:02 augur being able to spout bullshit 19:28:06 and people taking the simulation argument seriously 19:28:12 that is a really good feature 19:28:12 support the factory union 19:28:12 thus distracting them from actually thinking and looking 19:28:21 which would cause them to find all the flaws in the approximations 19:28:25 those are two. 19:28:51 pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location 19:29:22 augur that adds up to five 19:29:24 can't you count 19:29:28 you just had to add one or two more. 19:29:33 D: 19:29:41 actually i think he's saying I'm the fourth fundamental feature of the universe 19:29:47 and he used a colon instead of a comma 19:29:48 pretty much 19:29:51 xD 19:30:08 another argument against the simulation argument: why the heck would you want to simulate this universe? 19:30:17 also "simulating what?" 19:30:19 stealth terrorists from uranus 19:30:23 the answer appears to be 19:30:26 a newtonian universe 19:30:29 which is adorable 19:30:31 they haven't intervened, they've just run one presumably not entirely unlike their own (they couldn't imagine simulating something too different from their universe; almost certainly) 19:30:33 so 19:30:35 what the fuck is the point 19:30:36 pthing: what do you mean? 19:30:41 those are two. 19:30:41 pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location 19:30:50 relativity demolished the first two, quantum the second 19:30:58 what? 19:31:00 BUT THAT LEAVES THE THIRD 19:31:01 :P 19:31:01 if you remove these "easier to compute" features 19:31:05 what do you mean "demolished"? 19:31:16 you are left with a 19th century cosmos 19:31:30 i dont follow what you're saying, pthing 19:31:34 this universe would be way way way easier to simulate if we did one thing 19:31:35 which is the more-real-than-real universe that the real universe is just a computational simulation of 19:31:37 ELIMINATE QUANTUM MECAHNICS 19:31:39 *mechanics 19:31:53 ehird, no apparently it is a simplification? 19:31:58 ehird, i dont think it would 19:32:01 classical mechanics gets like 99.999999999% of shit right, and fuck the rest 19:32:12 because then you'd have to actually calculate all particle motion and so forth 19:32:12 augur, it's easy 19:32:13 we would just try experiments and conclude yep that classical shit is the bomb 19:32:31 you point to those as features that are put in to make the universe easier to compute 19:32:32 its far easier to just leave particle positions as probabilistic things that dont have to be calculated all the time 19:32:41 dude augur 19:32:41 pthing: yes, i do. 19:32:44 now if they're put in 19:32:45 do you know anything about QM 19:32:48 that means in the hyper-real universe 19:32:49 no way that shit simplifies vs classical 19:32:52 they're not there, right? 19:33:04 oh snap 19:33:06 ehird: i think it does! 19:33:16 augur: because you're not a physicist, you're a linguist on crack 19:33:17 pthing: who knows. the hyper-real might not even be like our universe at all! 19:33:23 I HATE YOU 19:33:27 you're stupid. 19:33:28 ehird: actually i was a physics major before i was a linguistics major 19:33:36 i can see why you switched 19:33:39 augur, well whatever, *a* hyper-real universe that our universe is simulating, right? 19:33:51 Pthing: whoa you mixed that up there 19:33:55 that sentence is freaky shit. 19:34:06 dont worry little one these ideas are VERY HARD 19:34:14 if the simulation hypothesis is correct, sure! 19:34:18 real scienticians are afraid of them 19:34:19 so! 19:34:27 Pthing: dude dude you said that our universe is simulating our simulator 19:34:28 the hyper-real universe is, in fact, Newtonian 19:34:29 that must have been a typo :P 19:34:36 maybe! 19:34:41 ehird: no no 19:34:44 so this whole idea 19:34:46 he's just a Scheme fan 19:34:58 METACIRCULAR UNIVERSE 19:35:05 is just the same thing as people who thought quantum mechanics and relativity were funny tricks 19:35:12 and Newton got it all right via unaided reason 19:35:37 pthing, iiii dont think so. you're assuming that the "hyperreal universe" is newtonian, when it could very well be completely different and non-newtonian 19:35:43 augur 19:35:44 how! 19:35:48 stop right there for one second augur 19:35:53 The hyper-real universe is like our universe 19:35:54 i think its a mistake to assume that the only two options are newtonian and relativoquantumic 19:35:55 i want you to do some thinking for me 19:35:57 minus these computational aids 19:35:59 augur 19:36:00 augur 19:36:02 shut up Pthing 19:36:03 shut up augur 19:36:06 but why would you assume that it's like our universe at all? :o 19:36:11 SHUT UP 19:36:13 ehird: im listening, talk. jesus. 19:36:16 well because that is by definition 19:36:26 I'm not saying our universe is simulating the hyperpeople's universe 19:36:28 augur: give me the mechanics of a universe that are consistent, result in complex patterns, and are relatively stable 19:36:30 just *a* hyperuniverse 19:36:36 and make them totally unlike anything we've ever dreamt of 19:36:37 GO 19:36:50 irrelevant. 19:36:57 and *the particular* hyperuniverse our computer is simulating appears to be our universe - computational flaws 19:36:58 OR 19:37:00 congratulations, YOU LOSE 19:37:00 newtonian! 19:37:17 ehird: congratulations, i dont 19:37:22 yes 19:37:23 yes you do 19:37:26 pthing: i dont get what you're saying 19:37:34 you lost in fact as soon as you said "the simulation argument" 19:37:34 what don't you get 19:37:43 what universe you're talking about, for one 19:37:49 ehird: you said it first :D 19:38:18 i am talking about the universe that the hyperpeople want to learn things about to which our universe is a computational simulation 19:38:29 augur stop embarrassing yourself 19:38:47 er 19:38:49 oh, i see 19:39:03 hyperpurple people eaters 19:39:08 pthing, no no when i said its a simulation i just mean simulated, not a simulation of /something/ 19:39:13 nonsense, hyperpeople just make huge simulation projects of wildly different universes that still requires oodles of computation FOR FUN! 19:39:19 oh, but that's implicit! 19:39:25 You don't just have A Simulation 19:39:26 we're three year old bobby's first universe 19:39:27 in the same way that like, The Sims is a simulation, but its not really a simulation of our universe 19:39:31 sure it is 19:39:33 i eman, i guess in some sense it is 19:39:33 but 19:39:44 it's a simulation of a particularly human-sized suburban american part of it 19:39:47 whereas! 19:39:52 not all simulations are simulations of preexisting things! 19:39:56 name one! 19:40:11 Myst! 19:40:17 which was a particularly fun game, btw. 19:40:17 um, that's a puzzle game 19:40:19 not 19:40:19 a 19:40:22 simulation 19:40:24 its a simulated environment! 19:40:26 ... 19:40:27 no 19:40:29 wow you lose augur 19:40:30 shut up augur 19:40:32 you massively lose. 19:40:50 jesus christ. 19:41:06 pthing 19:41:12 watch me not shut up 19:41:22 you know why i wont shut up? because your opinion is irrelevant 19:41:22 actually he can make you shut up. 19:41:23 just say it 19:41:25 cool feature of irc clients. 19:41:28 how does that make you feel? 19:41:33 knowing that you're irrelevant? 19:41:37 "I think the universe is a simulation by some hyperpeople of a newtonian universe" 19:41:49 i dont, actually 19:41:54 "slobber slobber sir isaac newton slobber slobber" 19:42:02 Newton baby <3 19:42:11 pthing you're so silly 19:42:18 wow convincing 19:42:21 i believe you now augur 19:42:24 i will have it etched in stone 19:42:26 believe what? 19:42:30 "opposers you're so silly" 19:42:39 — augur, founder of the hyperpeoplenewtonianquantumosimulatron theory 19:42:44 praise be 19:42:49 pthing isnt even opposing anything 19:42:58 he isn't? 19:43:00 this opossum is ur-elephant 19:43:22 ehird: well, seeing as how im not saying the universe is a simulation, no 19:43:30 umm 19:43:33 then what the fuck ARE you saying 19:43:34 UMM 19:43:42 maybe you should read, ehird 19:43:53 Pthing: isn't that what he said? 19:43:57 because i'm fairly sure 19:43:57 i have been reading 19:43:58 and i admit 19:43:59 that's what he fucking said. 19:44:01 i said like half an hour ago that the universe isnt a simulation. 19:44:05 no 19:44:06 no you did not 19:44:07 yes 19:44:08 I do not know what you *are* saying 19:44:08 i did 19:44:21 apart from your points aren't very good 19:44:28 here look, ehird 19:44:28 augur: if you can't communicate with someone of any intelligence, that's your problem 19:44:31 not the listener's 19:44:39 the simulation argument is wrong. 19:44:39 it probably is, but even so its fun 19:44:39 come back when you can state in a sentence WHAT YOU ARE SAYING 19:44:46 WHATS THAT? ME AGREEING WITH YOU EHIRD? 19:44:49 generally for the purpose of argument, 19:44:51 OMG 19:44:53 we assume you believe what you're arguing for 19:45:04 not 19:45:06 really 19:45:11 for instance, "Devil's advocate: Nazis rock" "No they don't, Nazis don't rock, you're stupid" "I NEVER SAID NAZIS ROCK" 19:45:20 uh 19:45:24 "...that's what you're arguing for." 19:45:32 "No it's not, I said half an hour ago that nazis don't rock" 19:45:35 that's not really ti 19:45:36 at all 19:45:38 ehird shut up 19:45:47 i'm proud to have never made a good analogy in my life. 19:46:19 KNEEWAYS 19:46:31 ↑a 19:46:32 pthing, stop telling people to shut up. 19:46:37 no 19:47:03 hey i just realized, both pthing and ehird are in england 19:47:03 :o 19:47:09 and theyre both homosexuals! 19:47:11 um 19:47:21 well, ok, ehird is 13, not a homosexual 19:47:23 yeah I'm actually Pthing. 19:47:25 but 19:47:25 um 19:47:35 Pthing is gay because, pee thing, you see 19:47:37 it refers to a penis. 19:47:38 um 19:47:42 mu 19:47:56 pthing, its "om". your mantra sucks. 19:48:05 get with the program, gosh 19:48:06 it's the skeptic's mantra 19:48:10 oic 19:48:13 carry on then! 19:48:25 HOLY FUCK 360 DEGREE HOLOGRAPHIC DISPLAY 19:48:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VusJwGTQQ 19:49:25 its still got a spinning component tho :( 19:49:48 eh? 19:49:50 what do you mean 19:49:52 also who cares 19:49:55 its got a spinning mirror 19:50:01 so what 19:50:04 well 19:50:07 it must spin fast enough to work 19:50:13 if you get your head chopped off, your own fucking fault 19:50:18 we've had spinning-surface "holograms" for ages 19:50:22 like 20 years or something 19:50:48 who fucking cares, it looks awesome 19:50:52 well yes 19:50:52 but 19:50:59 its been looking awesome for 20 years or something! 19:51:13 add some tactile gloves to that and you've got the most awesome "futuristic" computer ever 19:51:30 sure, one that you cant actually touch because your hand will get fucked up 19:51:34 but sure 19:51:39 err why 19:51:46 the mirrors aren't actually in the hologram are they 19:51:51 yes they are 19:51:54 oh 19:51:54 fuck that 19:51:57 the hologram reflects off the mirror 19:52:05 i thought it was like 19:52:08 you need a circular chamber 19:52:11 and the mirror spins around the edges 19:52:15 no 19:52:15 projecting it into the middle 19:52:24 but that is an interesting idea 19:52:37 have to spin really fast though 19:52:46 and that'd be uber noisy 19:52:56 but, it should work 19:53:03 itd be difficult to achieve, i think 19:53:09 and itd be pretty big 19:53:22 hmm 19:53:28 wouldn't a mirror spinning really fast be equivalent to uh 19:53:30 one big mirror 19:53:32 and youd have to look down at it 19:53:47 augur: not if you put them in the (transparnet) ceiling and floor 19:53:49 *transparent 19:53:51 the mirror spins around its center, so that its pointing at different places throughout its spin 19:53:54 as well as the walls 19:53:56 then voila! 3d. 19:54:02 ah, so a big room then 19:54:07 that would be veeerry tricky 19:54:26 augur: just move the mirrors with magic 19:54:29 magic can do it fast enough! 19:54:30 :o 19:54:41 but can it hold the mirror glass together, thats the question! 19:54:57 :D 19:55:14 theres a planetarium-like thing at some university thats intended for something like that 19:55:17 there was a TED talk about it 19:55:26 it doesnt use holography 19:55:35 but at the scale and distance used, it doesnt matter much 19:55:37 but anyway, that + big circular room + antigravity + tactile glove thingies + huge fucking earmuffs to block out all the awful noise from the spinning and levitation = BEST INTERFACE EVER 19:56:11 sounds like the gunnery interface in that one Babylon 5 movie 19:57:04 alas it is not easy to maneuver in the kind of antigravity that doesn't involve a very fast plane 19:57:17 or indeed that kind too; if you could just sort of speed up movements it'd be fine 19:57:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEP#Results 19:57:20 HAHAHA 19:57:22 oh man 19:57:24 thats hilarious 19:57:59 DAMN TIDES 19:58:01 DAMN LAKES 19:58:02 DAMN TRAINS 19:58:06 just do it in space 19:58:07 at 0k 19:58:07 RUININ MAH SPERMENTS 19:58:10 *K 19:58:14 no interference at all! 19:58:27 yeah but then the alien space ships will fuck it up! 19:58:28 augur : I remember that story 19:58:39 slereah_, you work in the cern area right? 19:58:46 My quantum physics teacher told us 19:58:48 Nah 19:58:48 or do you just contract out to nantes? 19:58:51 Not even close 19:59:05 Although he just told us about the train, though 19:59:44 it'll probably be simpler to make good VR than to do the awesome interface :P 19:59:54 ehird: probably. 20:00:02 have you seen Lawnmower Man? 20:00:35 Is it about the retard who gains superpowers? 20:00:36 i think i saw it when i was a kiddie 20:00:43 slereah: not quite 20:00:45 Slereah_: if i'm thinking about the same movie, yes 20:00:50 well not superpowers but 20:00:53 retarded kid used in experiments with VR to boost intelligence 20:01:06 no no no don't call them experiments with vr 20:01:07 Come on, he makes a lawnmower in some dude's mind! 20:01:08 in the sequel he ends up creating a massive virtual world where people can upload their minds 20:01:10 what it was is flashing images 20:01:14 That's not super intelligence 20:01:15 and patterns 20:01:20 and that made him clever 20:01:21 somehow 20:01:22 That's mind warping 20:01:26 by playing a video game 20:01:42 the game they played was a lot like the pre-release version of Wipeout, oddly 20:01:50 which looks pretty interesting 20:01:52 Heheh, wipe 20:01:53 wipeout is a good game 20:02:06 ehird, if youve never seen the pre-release version, check out the Hackers movie 20:02:07 erm i dunno if i played wipeout 20:02:09 i dunno 20:02:14 augur: no i'm never watching that movie 20:02:16 I don't know what wipeout is 20:02:24 the game they play on the big tv is the prerelased wipeout 20:02:26 aww ehird why not? 20:02:30 its fun! 20:03:39 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:03:46 ehirds worried that hes going to start thinking that hacking involves lots of pretty pictures on old mac laptops 20:03:50 D: 20:03:55 xD 20:04:19 when everyone knows that it involves lots of pretty pictures on new ubuntu+compiz fusion laptops! 20:04:50 they don't call them laptops any more augur 20:04:54 oh sorry 20:04:56 notebooks 20:04:58 portables 20:04:59 alas the lap is now obsolete as NOTEBOOKS are 20:05:03 the enemies 20:05:05 of your sperm. 20:05:09 D: 20:05:09 Spermemies. 20:05:14 i hate my sperm anyway. 20:05:17 damn sperm 20:05:36 you can tell they actually like to be on your lap because they get all hot 20:05:36 REPUBLICAN RETARDS THINK THAT OBAMA IS PROPOSING MAKING SOYLENT GREEN REALITY. D': 20:05:48 pikhq: Sounds like a modest proposal to me. 20:06:07 ehird: Quite. 20:06:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2Jh2i7JgY Wow. 20:06:33 (Not parody.) 20:08:20 americans are stupid 20:08:24 this is a general fact 20:08:36 You're such a bitch, bitch. 20:08:39 republicans as much as democrats 20:08:49 ehird: but i'm your bitch li 20:08:50 ;o 20:08:58 Bitch li? 20:09:05 typo, nigga 20:09:13 li is one character left of ;o 20:09:32 augur: I'm neither. The Democrats are too right for my tastes. 20:09:41 im neither too 20:09:58 but only because i favor the destruction of the whole political system as it currently exists. :D 20:10:04 mycroftiv, there? I have a plan9 installer question: How do I get it to use Swedish keyboard layout. I forgot since last time I did a plan9 in qemu 20:10:50 Not in the installer you don't, afaik. 20:10:54 Install it first. 20:11:00 pretty sure it was possible 20:11:04 guys: $100/£50 for the first person who can figure out what this translaiton SHOULD have looked like: 20:11:05 آڈولف میركلے KFC died of her father when took his family business توجدید on the lines while it too much development soon . 20:11:11 ehird, also where is / on US layout? And + 20:11:19 augur: I like to fuck goats 20:11:24 ehird: close! 20:11:26 AnMaster: / is after . 20:11:35 qwertyuiop[] (either enter or \) 20:11:37 it is infact supposed to have been "When Adolf Merckle took charge of his family's business after the death of his father, he greatly improved the business very quickly through a process of modernization." 20:11:42 asdfghjkl;' 20:11:46 maybe \ here 20:11:49 hm 20:11:50 zxcvbnm,./ 20:11:51 kay 20:11:55 top row shifted: 20:11:57 and + ? 20:12:00 !@#$%^&*()_+ 20:12:05 unshifted 20:12:10 1234567890-= 20:13:17 kay 20:13:26 Also, don't do venti. 20:13:33 Just use fossil. 20:13:44 Unless you have a RAID with a buncha disks. 20:14:06 i'll raid your disks alright 20:14:20 I want to try venti that is why I'm doing this :P 20:14:29 AnMaster: Well, that's stupid. 20:14:34 ehird, ? 20:14:52 Because you don't have a lot of disk, and venti/fossil isn't exactly the most compact storage mechanism. 20:15:11 15 GB disk image. True not that much 20:15:13 fossils are too thinly spread out 20:15:23 oerjan, hi 20:15:40 'lo 20:15:55 fuck the screen dimming thingy in ubuntu btw. it doesn't work well 20:16:07 Hmm, I don't actually have a spare x86/BIOS box anywhere 20:17:24 btw. it plan9 cd doesn't even boot under virtualbox 20:18:15 or rather, with the ICH6 IDE controller (not the default one) it does boot (very slowly) but then freezes when it tries to start the GUI 20:18:26 sata bith 20:18:28 bitch 20:18:34 AnMaster: also use his 9grid image 20:18:39 ehird, tried sata too. didn't work well 20:18:39 instead of the install iso 20:18:44 that's what he told me to do at least 20:18:49 ehird, what was the url now again 20:18:54 also it was qemu one 20:19:10 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/gridtoolsplus.tgz 20:19:16 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz is just the image 20:19:39 and qemu can't make use of the cool VT-x thingy 20:19:48 kqemu 20:20:02 AnMaster: Sure it can. 20:20:20 Just need to have kvm in your kernel. 20:20:22 ehird, yes but that doesn't use hardware virtualization iirc? Only does some stuff in kernel to speed it up. Since kqemu works on my old sempron too 20:20:30 pikhq, hm 20:20:37 your sempron has hardware virtualisation 20:20:46 anyway 20:20:46 ehird: That's not what kqemu does. 20:20:48 ehird, no it doesn't 20:20:50 plan 9 is very frugal with resources 20:20:51 pikhq: i know 20:20:59 so vt-x is totally unneeded 20:21:06 And no, Semprons don't have it. 20:21:10 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm 20:21:10 k 20:21:16 kvm only works if you have a processor that supports it :( 20:21:36 * AnMaster looks around in qemu-launcher for a KVM option 20:21:40 AnMaster: Fabrice Bellard also wrote a Linux kernel module (with preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows) named KQEMU or QEMU Accelerator, which notably speeds up x86 emulation on x86 platforms. This is accomplished by running user mode code directly on the host computer's CPU, and using processor and peripheral emulation only for kernel mode and real mode code 20:21:42 close enough. 20:22:08 ehird, yes, but that isn't VT-x :P which was my point 20:22:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:22:42 kqemu can accelerate kernel mode code, too 20:22:53 coppro: It's a hack. 20:22:53 I wonder if having virtualbox and kvm running at the same time will cause issues 20:22:59 :D 20:23:08 don't see why 20:23:22 Polarisation 20:23:28 I'm typing vertically 20:23:32 install is sure slow 20:23:34 wonder why 20:23:34 It is uncomfortable 20:23:41 AnMaster: takes like 30m. 20:23:44 maybe no DMA? though I said yes when it asked if I wanted to use DMA 20:24:04 30m isn't bad. 20:24:13 ehird, about 15 minutes passed of the "installing file system" phase. And it is at 15% 20:24:22 I don't think that will add up to 30 minutes 20:24:40 have you ever used windows' file copy dialog AnMaster 20:25:36 ehird, yes. right. but a) this shows ETA in percent, not minutes b) the percent seems to be going at a steady rate, and has all the time 20:26:27 * AnMaster wishes for a larger desktop 20:26:31 desk* 20:26:35 as in.... 20:27:02 i'm trying to imagine a desk too small to fit a notebook. 20:27:10 I can't fit the throttle/joystick on there when the laptop is also on it 20:27:18 that is, throttle/joystick connected to desktop 20:27:28 and keyboard/mouse for desktop there too 20:27:29 you'll have to ask augur about joysticks 20:27:33 can't advise there 20:28:07 as in: full size keyboard, mouse, large joystick, large throttle, laptop 20:28:12 just out of space then 20:28:24 i already told you that i can't advise about joysticks. 20:29:28 ehird, well. I don't need advice. there is just no way to fit it :P 20:29:46 i'm sure augur is an expert on extra-large joysticks 20:30:50 ..... 20:30:57 what? 20:31:37 ah maybe with laptop near the back of the desktop, since it is just installing atm, don't need to type anything 20:31:51 right! it's always important that your joystick fits snugly. 20:31:58 ........ 20:32:11 I want to play vegastrike. that is why 20:32:28 sure, sure, ...play is an important part of human existence 20:32:34 just don't break anything 20:33:16 anyway, I don't know about "extra large". the base "box" of the throttle is 17x17 cm. about the same for the joystick 20:33:24 how tall? 20:34:00 AnMaster: ? 20:34:13 throttle? depending on what position it is in.. between 14 and 20 cm it seems 20:34:17 rouhly 20:34:21 roughly* 20:34:49 that's more than average 20:35:12 joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too 20:35:23 which is about 5 cm for either 20:35:28 AnMaster: !!! 20:35:29 that's HUGE! 20:35:42 ehird, is it? Never owned any other joystick 20:35:51 ...i don't think many people do... 20:35:59 ehird, own a joystick? 20:36:02 hm ok 20:36:04 my joysticks are indeed extra large 20:36:05 more than one 20:36:15 augur: his is 11" 20:36:15 Saitek X52 Pro btw 20:36:22 quite good for flight sim 20:36:24 [20:35] AnMaster: joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too 20:36:29 i have an 17" and an 18" joystick. ;o 20:36:40 i have a 1000" joystick, true story. 20:36:46 :o 20:36:47 hawt 20:36:57 can get hard to carry around, like to lan parties 20:37:02 and people like to play with it a lot there 20:37:05 kinda attracts a crowd 20:37:07 it uses the hall effect for sensing the position of the joystick. Rather than messy potentiometers 20:37:10 oh sorry i thought we were talking about dildos 20:37:19 no 20:37:19 penises 20:37:24 oh i see 20:37:26 AND THUS THE EXTENDED INNUENDO ENDS 20:37:31 augur, no. Joysticks. As in real joysticks 20:37:35 yes 20:37:37 anmaster has no sense of humor. 20:37:38 real joysticks, AnMaster 20:37:38 and yes I know what ehird was trying to do :P 20:37:40 that's what we're talking about,. 20:37:43 but I ignored it 20:37:44 s/,\.$/./ 20:37:49 * augur plays with ehirds joystick 20:37:50 AnMaster: retcon retcon retcon 20:37:56 (erection erection erection?) 20:37:58 oh man 20:38:00 bad timing 20:38:02 why you gotta do that augur 20:38:05 ehird, I actually realised it at " that's HUGE!" 20:38:15 because I though: "no I'm pretty sure it isn't" 20:38:15 AnMaster: your naivety knows no bounds 20:38:41 ehird, yes I'm probably naive when it comes to innuendo 20:38:47 and? 20:39:09 the joystick is where? in your end? oh. 20:39:43 ehird, do you like blinkenlights? 20:39:53 no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem 20:39:55 *mittengrabben 20:40:04 another translation thingy: "In his words : ' is the operation was now are to Provide INFORMATION ABOUT IT ." 20:40:06 ehird, you are no geek :P 20:40:08 Mittens :D 20:40:18 apparently machine translations are Start To YELL AT YOU!!! 20:40:27 starting* 20:40:40 AnMaster: uhh, howso 20:41:17 ehird, aren't you supposed to like shiny blinking lights and such? 20:41:27 okay, let me get this straight 20:41:29 you made a reference 20:41:31 i continued it 20:41:37 and then you accused me of like 20:41:39 breaking the reference 20:41:43 youuuuuu're stuuuuupid 20:42:30 ehird, um. I didn't intend it as a reference like that. I intended it as a normal word for the mentioned concept (that of blinking lights) 20:42:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights 20:42:39 You fail. 20:42:42 oh wait I misread you 20:42:49 no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem <-- read "no" as "nor" 20:42:55 as in, you didn't like the reference 20:42:55 ... 20:43:28 guh electron microscopes use electrons 20:43:33 i thought they looked at electrons 20:43:33 xD 20:43:50 ehird, seriously? 20:43:56 yeah :D 20:43:57 you seriously thought that? 20:43:58 :D 20:44:05 * AnMaster laughs at ehird 20:44:19 it isn't _that_ far-fetched 20:44:33 ehird, they use electrons due to the shorter wavelength. In order to be able to "see" smaller details 20:44:55 at least that is what I learnt in the physics course in school 20:45:17 * AnMaster wonders about UK education 20:45:43 listening is never mandatory :P 20:46:23 qemu emulates a Pentium2? *HUH* 20:46:33 running at 2261 MHz 20:46:34 :D 20:46:43 that's one rare Pentium II 21:20:18 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:21:21 man 21:21:26 ive started packing my books 21:21:53 ive got almost three boxes full already 21:22:08 and im only done with the shelf along the top part of my wall 21:22:19 so many books x.x 21:25:26 electron microscopes do look at electrons, though :| 21:25:39 ehird, question: as you know my laptop is high dpi. How do I make it possible to actually read what it says in plan9 on it :D 21:25:51 as in, where do I set DPI/font size stuff 21:26:30 augur, are you moving? 21:26:37 anmaster: yeah 21:27:04 ok. good luck with finding large enough boxes 21:27:39 oh i have, dont worry 21:31:21 uh 21:31:42 I get this across my plan9 screen atm: "err 2; arena arenas00 creation time after last write time" 21:31:43 lots of it 21:49:54 AnMaster: plan9 fonts are bitmaps iirc 21:50:01 so tough shit, scale up the window 21:50:11 or use a bigger font 22:08:54 * pikhq has a low opinion of bitmap fonts 22:12:22 It doesn't exactly matter unless you have good typefaces. 22:12:39 The Plan 9 fonts are non-free though, which is dumb. 22:13:10 (Of course, just because they're non-free doesn't mean they could just bundle Helvetica or something; they presumably aren't paying royalties on the current fonts.) 22:15:45 AnMaster: oh, that issue came up on 9fans recently - let me see if I can find the thread - the basic cause I believe is using venti and not allowing venti data dumps to complete, along with clock sync stuff 22:16:12 ha, venti breaks everything! 22:17:22 well, heres the thing - plan9 was designed to *not* run everything on the same box. its possible to do so, but stuff like the massive dumps of venti prints to your console because of frequent reboots tend to crop up 22:18:21 if this is a qemu vm, when i use venti and plan9 in qemu, i have to set up the venti server as a userspace process on a different qemu VM - trying to stuff a full venti/fossil/auth/cpu/terminal into a single qemu VM has never worked well for me 22:19:03 mostly because the qemu virtualization layer cant seem to handle it well - an all-in-one setup seems to work OK on native hardware or in vmware, but qemu just folds under the pressure 22:21:01 AnMaster: if you are interested in grappling with the 'arenas00 creation time' prints, look in http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07 and search for 'arenas' and you will find a long thread about exactly your issue 22:21:08 the cause, and how to eliminate it 22:21:31 Meh, that's work. *GIVES UP* 22:21:39 Further proof that Plan 9 sucks. 22:22:18 in terms of having the system be usable by people without extensive study and experience - plan9 is absolutely awful, that is for sure 22:22:33 i'm trolling man 22:22:40 i would say that learning how to use plan9 in any 'real' way took me almost 9 months of 10 hours a day study 22:22:44 im serious hah 22:23:17 mycroftiv: uhh really? 22:23:21 i think plan9 is so amazing i devote large amounts of my time trying to figure out how to make the learning/setup curve less insane 22:23:23 i did shit with plan 9 in hours 22:23:34 got it set up, looked at the 22:23:34 ehird: i doubt you did the things that make plan9 'important' in just a few hours 22:23:37 software stuff 22:23:43 used acme to hack out some code 22:23:45 if you havent had a cpu/auth server running before, imo youve never 'really' used plan 9 at all 22:23:47 tried to use /dev/tcp and failed 22:23:54 mycroftiv: meh, that involves having multiple boxes 22:24:01 ehird: E X A C T L Y 22:24:17 the 'real' thing plan9 is supposed to do is distribute its functions over a minimum of 4 boxes, really 22:24:30 multiple boxes = noise + space + money + unportability 22:24:31 = lame 22:24:50 well, thats why VMs are so important - i have 5 VMs running on an inexpensive desktop box currently 22:25:07 but mycroftiv 22:25:07 so moore's law and virtualization solved those issues 22:25:14 distributing across the same hardware is pointless! 22:25:18 it's semantically null! it does nothing! 22:25:19 no, its not at all 22:25:27 it is though! 22:25:29 it's just extra overhead 22:25:31 for no gain 22:25:33 no, you are totally mistaken 22:25:42 any OS that requires such a thing just has a bad process/communication model 22:28:29 ehird: any electronic circuit that requires more than a few transistors is clearly overdesigned and inefficient. 22:28:35 computers were a mistake to begin with! 22:28:44 * mycroftiv shrugs 22:28:51 What is it with this channel and strawmen lately? 22:28:58 that was my meta-point sir 22:29:09 Deep 22:30:02 deep like the mariana's trench 22:30:03 amirite 22:30:33 i get confused between the marianas trench and the mindano trench 22:31:02 oh 22:31:03 well 22:31:06 one is named after mariana 22:31:06 and 22:31:12 the other is named after mindano. 22:31:12 the other 22:31:15 is named after mindano 22:31:29 that clears things up, i hadnt noticed the difference in names before 22:31:31 mindanao actually 22:32:02 i figured it was probably mindanao, but you never know. :D 22:32:32 hmm 22:32:47 i ought to write a trivial bit of unexecutable os code so i can decide it's tedious and give up. 22:33:33 ehird: let me try to put it historically - the concept of plan9 was that bell labs would own and run all the hardware (cpus/disk servers/etc) and you would just have a cheap terminal that you dialed up the system on - and in your office, same thing, central machine room, cheap user terminals 22:33:50 so that was the usage scenario and model the OS was designed for, circa 1990 22:33:57 i know. 22:34:00 thin clients failed. 22:34:04 indeed 22:34:05 and that's a good thing 22:34:07 and plan9 failed 22:34:12 (not so much of a good thing) 22:34:16 but it failed for good reasons 22:34:24 thin clients are fundamentally bad, tho 22:34:26 plan 9 isn't 22:34:59 well, i dont see how you can say that - i mean, all of us now use our computers often as 'thin clients' given the modern web and 'all i ever use is the browser' style mainstream computer use 22:35:10 mmh 22:35:12 don't get me started 22:35:49 so as a practical matter, the 'thin client' mode of use is now incredibly popular - and i know lots of people who do all their work on remote xen hosted stuff delivered via citrix, also 22:36:01 plenty of things are incredibly popular 22:36:04 like windows 22:36:05 and suck, sure 22:36:16 thin clients are so popular right now becaus 22:36:17 e 22:36:19 they're CONVENIENT 22:36:27 due to the bloated heap of modern computing 22:36:32 but that's not required 22:36:42 sure, thin clients are good in a lot of cases 22:36:43 but 22:36:46 not so much thin client 22:36:52 as a thick client that gets external resources 22:37:00 a thin client has the display dictated to, just does IO 22:37:06 a thick client with external objects is much more powerful 22:37:20 and, even then, plenty of things could work better locally if only it was *more convenient* to do so 22:37:34 anyway, all this for me is subpoint to what im trying to say, which is that recreating an analog of the original plan9 architecture with multiple VMs on a single machine isnt pointless at all, any more than running more than one *application* at a time is pointlesss, because thats all you are doing! 22:38:04 it just shows to me that if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol to do more than one computation at once effectively, then its model is outdated 22:38:21 if i run a venti server VM, and a fossil server VM, and a cpu server VM, and then a terminal Vm (to give the extreme) - im just running 4 different software applications on one computer, its just a 'heavy' way to do so 22:38:25 s/ c/ c/ 22:38:28 bloody double spaces 22:38:44 mycroftiv: a lot of redundancy there too, i see your point, 22:38:55 and i get that with plan 9 it's "needed" to emulate the distribution this way, 22:39:02 I just don't think it's the good way, as opposed to a hack 22:39:05 the technical problem is actually the qemu virtualization layer being inadequate as a direct practical matter 22:39:24 so the software that is at fault is qemu, not plan9, in the original source incident i believe 22:39:45 ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 22:40:00 (though plan9 people would say that you are supposed to 'know' that after you first install plan9, you should probably *not* reboot until your initial archival dump from fossil to venti completes) 22:41:01 hhhhhhhhhhhh 22:42:01 ehird: but, if you want to find evidence to support your assertion about "if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol..." is a comment in the source code near an early boot bring up of IP stack saying "this is such a crock" 22:42:11 :-D 22:42:35 the fact that the process of trying to accomadate the average modern home user by figuring out how to stuff all the necessary components of a plan9 system into a single box that can be booted all at once - not so perfect, even by their standards 22:42:50 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:43:21 in the original system, the disk storage servers didnt even run the same kernel as the cpus and terminals 22:44:14 it was originally, code-wise, a 'different os' for each of the different functional components - over time that evolved and changed and some of the componenets were swapped out, like venti replacing the original archival data server 22:44:22 mm 22:44:31 back 22:44:33 have i mentioned recently that kernels suck? 22:44:38 mycroftiv, thanks for that link 22:44:53 s/ / / 22:45:31 AnMaster: welcome back, good luck with your setup - as i mentioned venti+fossil boot system inside qemu has always been problematic for me 22:45:36 ehird hm why? 22:45:44 mycroftiv, that is what I used yes 22:45:47 AnMaster: the explanation involves big words 22:45:59 brief summary http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html 22:46:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:46:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:46:59 ehird, how do you do scheduling of CPU time between objects? 22:47:14 * ehird hands AnMaster a "Didn't Read The Page At All" badge 22:47:24 ehird, I read the first few lines 22:47:29 -!- comex has joined. 22:47:34 ehird, and then: tl;dr 22:47:42 Well fuck you, I'm not your personal reading assistant. 22:47:51 You can't read seven short paragraph 22:47:52 s. 22:48:11 AnMaster: long story short - the answer is nontechnical but processes dont schedule themselves, they attach to another 'meta-object' that controls task switching 22:48:22 mycroftiv: tl;dr 22:48:28 sentence was over 10 words. 22:48:37 mycroftiv, right... And that bit runs in ring0? 22:48:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has left (?). 22:48:51 AnMaster: as i said, the wiki page was nontechnical 22:48:58 Hur hur the hardware is what makes all design decisions hur hur 22:49:05 Abstraction? UNPOSSIBLE!!! 22:49:11 mycroftiv, well. I'm wondering how the hell this could be implemented on x86 at least.... 22:49:26 which I assume is the goal 22:49:34 due to it being the most common architecture 22:49:48 (in this case x86 includes 64-bit variants) 22:50:07 AnMaster: my opinion as a practical matter is that your OS abstraction layer is above what you might call 'shim code' and that (just imo at least) in some ways the differences are semantic/conceptual more than anything else 22:50:27 if you really can't imagine how to not have a kernel and just use attached procedures for task switching... 22:50:34 then you're either hugely massively ignorant about how OSes work 22:50:36 or just can't hack. 22:50:46 mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... 22:51:02 AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. 22:51:04 and kernel includes stuff like loadable drivers to me. 22:51:12 ehird, ah, it is like inferno or such? 22:51:16 interesting 22:51:21 If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. 22:51:21 and yes, that is an unusual case. 22:51:24 thats why im saying its mostly semantics and conceptualizing - and some real differences in what functional tasks are located in what coe blocks - but still 22:51:31 Shocking 22:52:28 My only comment on a no-kernel design is that it is probably very freaking hard to get working initially. 22:52:37 ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:52:46 we must be reading different articles 22:52:52 because it's exactly as easy as a kernel system 22:53:00 well, maybe a bit more accurate would be: whatever handles cpu scheduling, interrupt management, core memory management, doing the actual ring-0 code to do stuff like DMA and so on is the kernel 22:53:15 If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. 22:53:38 ehird, then provide *YOUR* definition of kernel 22:53:43 I'm waiting 22:53:51 .......... 22:53:55 ehird: But you have to, like, do more design than "Alright, let's toy with the standard UNIX kernel design a bit". 22:54:04 Do you want me to ship a copy of Wikipedia to your house? 22:54:06 Would you like that? 22:54:15 Or is it too fucking long didn't goddamn read. 22:54:21 Jesus. 22:54:38 ehird,I find my definition quite fitting with the one on wikipedia 22:54:47 Basically, the thing making the design hard (IMO) is that you'd kinda be paving the way. 22:54:58 ehird, or do your system *trust all "traditionally userspace" code* 22:55:00 Not much of a criticsm, just a comment. 22:55:18 AnMaster: It's like a microkernel only more so. 22:55:22 well 22:55:34 pikhq: Ding. 22:55:35 Wrong. 22:55:41 It is nothing like a microkernel at all. 22:55:46 In fact, microkernels are possibly the antithesis of it. 22:56:07 pikhq, he indicated everything ran in ring 0 above: " AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.". Seems insecure if you are, say, browsing the web 22:56:09 or whatever 22:56:28 there will *always* be bugs in anything as complex as a web browser 22:56:29 "Make it so that as little is done in the kernel as possible" is a lot like "Make it so that the 'kernel' is a misnomer." 22:56:37 AnMaster: You're truly an idiot. 22:56:45 ehird, care to justify? 22:56:49 or just personal insult :P 22:56:58 AnMaster: thats right, the web is TEEEMING with exploits targeting a nonexistent operating system ;) 22:57:01 AnMaster: And the OS would be written in Smalltalk. 22:57:08 AnMaster: No, because you never understand any of my justifications or rebut them with strawmen and faux-jokes because you're an idiot. 22:57:12 So I'll settle for a personal insult. 22:57:15 mycroftiv, well, assuming it would become popular. Which I also assume is a goal of every OS 22:57:34 ehird, you FAIL 22:57:35 The only exploits akin to, say, the crazy shit done on Windows pre-NT would be from bugs of the Smalltalk implementation. 22:57:37 :P 22:57:46 nobody with any sense thinks any os is going to be popular unless it starts with a w, ends with s, and has indow in the middle 22:58:29 mycroftiv, yet linux is not that uncommon nowdays. Popular might even be a good word for it. Though far from as popular as windows indeed. 22:58:31 * ehird remembers that his client has an ignore feature, unlike his previous one 23:00:06 mycroftiv, anyway as far as I can see, trusting all code that runs seems stupid. Surely running code in a ring != 0 has proven a good (which isn't same as "perfect") solution by now :P 23:01:10 AnMaster: i have no opinion, and none of the stuff from tunes or that ehird has said actually seems to make any kind of statement one way or another in that regard - i think ehird was speaking more generally about the 'whole os being kernel' than what ring stuff was assigned to 23:01:11 iirc also at least on x86 and x86_64 running everything in ring 0 would be suboptimal. As in: stuff like task switching and page tables are designed for a kernel/userspace split. 23:01:29 at least that is what reading the architectural documentation for AMD64 seemed to indicate 23:02:12 AnMaster: from everything ive gathered from ehird, most of the things he talks about are always taking place at a layer of abstraction built up from the native hardware behavior 23:02:50 mycroftiv, also, memory protection is good for other reasons too. Remember "app crashing crashed whole OS"? Wasn't that long ago that was the norm outside *nix 23:03:07 I said 23:03:10 [22:50] AnMaster: mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... 23:03:10 [22:51] ehird: AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. 23:03:14 but that was just trolling him. 23:03:44 mycroftiv, and I'm mostly interested in the actual implementation details. The low level stuff. 23:03:52 which ehird seems to hate thinking about 23:03:57 and talking about 23:04:27 AnMaster: yes, its obvious that you and ehird direct your thinking at different topics, and i myself agree that 90% (99%?) of the actual work tends to be struggling with that stuff to get the abstractions you want created and working right 23:04:42 actually, my OS maps fairly directly to the hardware. 23:04:48 moreso, dare I say, than Linux 23:04:52 as it's just simpler. 23:04:55 mycroftiv, was that agreeing with me or ehird? 23:04:59 I'm not sure 23:05:07 AnMaster: its saying that you are talking past each other 23:05:25 * ehird attempts to think of a context in which mycroftiv's last line makes sense 23:05:27 ehird: do you know about um, whats it called, battlecruiser 3000 or something, and that guy's legendary flame wars on the net? 23:05:27 ehird: Certainly easier to add features to. 23:05:39 mycroftiv: nope 23:05:42 Hooray, modularity. 23:05:43 ehird: it makes sense when its obvious that you guys disagree on definitions 23:05:46 Battlecruiser 3000AD (also known as [BC3K] in Usenet) is one of the longest-developed games in computer game history. 23:05:48 sounds fun 23:05:59 mycroftiv, I'm a fan of OSes like http://www.coyotos.org/ Imagine how much I will dislike a OS *not* caring about security 23:06:17 well, its interesting - and its a cautionary tale - it actually turned out to be a pretty good game, and the guy has a continuing series of later games that seem to have a fan community 23:06:24 AnMaster: ... But he's not not caring about security. 23:06:45 is AnMaster accusing my OS of being insecure? 23:06:46 pikhq, and gets angry when I want to know about how he implemented it 23:07:01 does he know I'm doing a full fucking capability based system? 23:07:03 with no exceptions? 23:07:12 however, the original game took forever to make and was notorious for the guy making it trolling the hell out of usenet by talking about how great his game was, before hed actually written much of it 23:07:15 You'll note that the OS is meant to be programmed in Smalltalk. Who needs hardware memory protection when the language itself guarantees memory safety? 23:07:20 ehird, why not unignore me if you are going to ask what I just said... 23:07:31 HURR BUT WHAT IF YOU HAVE A BUG IN THE INTERPRETER 23:07:41 pikhq, hah. Well I didn't know that until a few minutes ago when ehird said it 23:07:43 Oh, wait, Linux has the exact same problem. So do all kernel systems. 23:07:47 Can I say "system calls"? 23:07:48 or was it you or mycroftiv? 23:08:05 brb 23:08:05 He's said it in the past, at least. 23:08:17 pikhq, I have been away for most of the last few days 23:08:21 ehird: you should stop talking about your os as if its something that exists and is running now and has definite proven characteristics. 23:08:24 It's pretty damned clear he intends to do it all in Smalltalk, and have the Smalltalk implementation written in Forth. 23:08:33 ehird, your attempts at trolling fails when you are guessing at what I'm saying 23:08:37 mycroftiv: i'm not 23:08:42 i'm talking about the fundamental design 23:08:52 i.e., if these constraints aren't met, it isn't the OS 23:09:02 mycroftiv, link to that game? 23:09:18 anyway, brb 23:09:21 well, thats why i point to the battlecruiser 3000 example, because its so similar, in terms of the failures of communication between designer and people he was talking to 23:09:43 AnMaster: i dunno, i always just google it when it crosses my mind to check in on it 23:09:47 ah 23:09:51 mycroftiv, is it freeware? 23:10:09 it is now, yeah - its day of legendary usenet flame wars was a decade ago or something 23:10:50 mycroftiv, anyway I'm genuinely interested in how ehird is going to solve the actual implementation on x86/x86_64 while ensuring good performance. And good security. 23:11:43 AnMaster: just as i told ehird he shouldnt talk about his os as if it exists yet, i think its also silly for you to expect implementation details given that you know there isnt any code running yet 23:11:51 mycroftiv, I wonder what will become of DNF then... 23:12:41 mycroftiv, well surely he must have considered "will this design actually work on hardware that is likely to be available" 23:12:57 "or do I need to develop my own -machine?" 23:13:02 AnMaster: See Smalltalk for more details. 23:14:15 AnMaster: Well, you can get whatever chips you want to implement whatever formal behavior you want, thats pretty well established - and I agree with where Fred Brooks ended up about software development: 23:14:43 iterate, improve, iterate, improve - always from a working minimal testbed - and do your design 'ahead' of yourself, but constantly with redesign based on the testing and use 23:14:50 pikhq, I know it is closed world. But you have to consider "will it run well on common architectures" when designing anything. To take an _extreme_ example: Searching memory by using CAM is more efficient than most other search algorithms. Yet it isn't commonly available on most hardware. 23:15:12 Found in special equipment like network switches and routers mostly 23:15:26 AnMaster: ... But Smalltalk works, and it works sufficiently well for most purposes. 23:15:37 an OS that depended on it for being efficient would be rather useless for most people 23:16:06 This is like asking if C could be used for an OS... 23:16:06 pikhq, yes. But does he intend to run it under a host OS hosting the smalltalk implementation forever? 23:16:08 AnMaster: anyone doing any work on creating a 'new os' should obviously know as a practical matter most people will never hear of it or care. and thats ok. 23:16:15 or will it be the "native OS you boot into" at some point 23:16:28 like the one you select in grub 23:16:38 (or whatever bootloader you use) 23:17:35 AnMaster: ehird has stated clearly that he intends to control the hardware natively and not run simply as hosted 'environment' 23:18:05 mycroftiv, right. Maybe he did before. But as I mentioned, I have been pretty busy during the days recently 23:18:26 and I hardly have time to read several hours of fast paced conversation in logs 23:18:53 so I might have missed details when I was marked away :P 23:19:09 i didnt mean for my statement 'ehird has stated clearly...' to carry the implication that you were at fault for not knowing that 23:19:30 hm 23:19:37 and he intends to code it in small talk? 23:19:46 won't the small talk runtime system be the "kernel" then 23:19:52 in a certain sense 23:20:05 not really, he wants to use forth for the lower level components of the system 23:20:13 since iirc smalltalk is pretty hosted. far from the "portable asm" that C is 23:20:31 create a smalltalk implementation hosted within his forth environment 23:20:39 hm 23:21:01 won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then 23:21:03 thats the basic concept he has outlined, which is definitely challenging, but i dont think there is anything at all 'wrong' with it conceptually 23:21:31 i cant speak for him, the way the two of you define 'kernel' hasnt been straightened out 23:21:50 so i think when you say 'kernel' its fkdjkjaasd to him and when he says 'kernel' its kaoiuweruieu to you 23:22:32 you seem to be using an 'operational' definition, in the sense of 'the kernel is whatever code that does x, y, z, so if x, y, z are done, whatever does them, we call a kernel' 23:22:47 mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts 23:22:50 and a lot more 23:23:16 AnMaster: yes, and that definition seems to make ehird angry, he seems to regard is as unconventional/incorrect 23:23:28 mycroftiv, and he referred me to wikipedia 23:23:36 and that wikipedia page seems to agree with me 23:23:51 i have no role as referee as to definitional correctness, i wash my hands 23:24:00 i agree with humpty dumpty personally 23:24:04 "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" 23:24:10 "when i use a word, it means exactly what i want it to mean, neither more nor less" 23:24:12 back 23:24:35 ehird: i was trying to answer some questions, you should verify my statements because i cant speak for you 23:24:56 but i believe stuff like 'forth lower layer, smalltalk upper layer' is 'established fact' about your os design now 23:25:47 * ehird unignores AnMaster and reads logs to make sense 23:25:49 15:21:01 won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then 23:25:50 no. 23:25:56 Smalltalk, for instance, handles talking to the keyboard 23:25:58 and the display 23:25:58 etc 23:26:06 Forth is just for writing the Smalltalk and what's needed for that. 23:26:24 15:22:47 mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts 23:26:36 by that definition, both all of my OS and none of my OS and everything in between is the kernel 23:26:47 sure you could isolate some bits and say maybe-this-is-the-kernel 23:26:52 but it'd be hopeless 23:27:07 15:24:04 "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" 23:27:08 mycroftiv, you can't do certain stuff in userspace on most modern CPU arches. This includes x86, PPC and some more. Userspace being defined as "whatever is the equivalent of ring 3 on the CPU arch". You will get general protection fault for loading the task register while in ring 3 for example on x86. 23:27:10 there is no manager in my OS 23:27:15 consider the kernel as the government 23:27:20 and my OS as a peaceful anarchist commune 23:27:56 (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) 23:28:12 ehird, are all applications managed, as in running under a VM, like inferno or such 23:28:22 where VM here would be the smalltalk code I assume 23:28:29 Mu 23:28:38 capability system 23:28:49 if an object has a reference to another object that talks directly to the hardware 23:28:51 then it can talk to the hardware 23:28:52 ehird, what *enforces* the capabilities 23:29:00 AnMaster: capabilities don't require "enforcement" 23:29:02 plz see wikipedia 23:30:01 (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) <-- I don't live in US... 23:30:08 AnMaster: loooooool 23:30:16 you know how a government derives its authority right? 23:30:17 yes it was a lame joke :P 23:30:26 ehird, yes 23:30:28 anyway 23:30:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 23:30:31 there is no such thing as a de jure government, only a de facto one enforced by the threat of violence 23:30:33 anyway, technically, an assorted bunch of objects around the system will have methods that run in ring-0, as an implementation detail 23:30:40 this does not include drivers 23:30:45 government derives its authority from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony 23:30:45 drivers just use these objects to talk to the hardware 23:30:58 and so you'd have drivers running in userspace according to you 23:31:23 ehird, ok. I can already see the performance problems ahead on x86. I suspect I know more about this sort of thing on x86 than you do. 23:31:25 :/ 23:31:32 I agree the idea sounds great 23:31:35 think what you want 23:31:51 you realise that smalltalk as an os is nothing new right 23:31:55 that's what the original smalltalk was 23:32:02 ehird, drivers in user space is certainly possible. But for some stuff it just won't cut it 23:32:18 i'm uninterested in your argument by assertion 23:32:39 ehird: Shame that modern CPUs are effectively C machines, isn't it? Makes it a bit hard to imagine anything else. 23:32:50 overhead of switching between userspace/kernel when handling interrupts from a 10 gbps ethernet card? 23:32:58 AnMaster: userspace/kernel? 23:32:58 are you serious :P 23:32:59 no such thing 23:33:01 ehird, well 23:33:04 ehird, ring 0/3 23:33:23 and don't even suggest ring 1 or 2 on x86. They are *even* slower to switch to/from 23:33:46 taking everything you said as axiomatic, because I can't be arsed to argue: then we run everything under ring 0 23:33:54 since ring 0<->3 has a "fast path" named SYSCALL/SYSRET and/or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT 23:34:00 depending on if you ask AMD or Intel 23:34:23 i like how you seem to think that an operation on a cpu will somehow not achieve 10gbps? 23:34:31 AnMaster: Actually, there's more than those for ring 0<->3 jumps... 23:34:59 pikhq, yes there is more to do. I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion 23:35:03 Linux has a function at a fixed memory location that does whatever's fastest, because there's so many ways to do it... 23:35:07 Anyways. 23:35:20 pikhq, but going to/from rings 1 and 2 is *even* slower 23:35:40 pikhq, and I know about the vdso :) 23:35:48 AnMaster: btw, I'm among good company with my won't-cut-it performance-destroying managed model 23:35:51 AnMaster: Tell that to Xen? :P 23:35:53 like microsoft, with their Singularity project 23:36:09 it's comforting to know both me and microsoft know less about x86 than AnMaster 23:36:13 ehird, running everything in ring 0 could work 23:36:23 ehird: Microsoft Research. 23:36:24 They 23:36:32 are 23:36:34 pikhq: aka the good part of Microsoft 23:36:34 coming 23:36:35 're the same guys that think Haskell is a decent language. ;) 23:36:41 ehird: Quite right. 23:36:45 pikhq, Well. That is relative "interpreting/dynamic recompiling in userspace" 23:37:01 pikhq, then yes using the extra rings is better 23:37:59 pikhq, iirc virtualbox uses ring 1 too for this. Not sure if that applies when using VT-x/AMD-V though 23:39:37 VT-x/AMD-V is most akin to VM-86. That is, the code runs in ring 0, except with unsafe calls automagically getting shipped on through to the hypervisor. 23:39:43 AnMaster: since you mention virtual machines, doesnt that point in the direction of 'not worrying' because I can run a qemu vm with no kqemu on an almost 10 year old freebsd box and put plan9 inside and still have a usable environment? 23:39:43 anyway AnMaster, my system absolutely has no *centralised* kernel 23:39:48 and that's what a kernel is! 23:39:54 sure it has privileged code 23:39:58 but a kernel is centralised, that's the definition 23:40:07 mycroftiv, plan9 doesn't use a lot of resources 23:40:36 I was thinking more about "server under high load, maybe DDoS" kind of scenario. 23:40:51 mycroftiv: not worrying about what? 23:40:53 i missed the context 23:41:00 im just saying, so far as I can tell, even the 'worst case scenario' of having the slowest possible way of using weak hardware, you can still get something usable out of it 23:41:38 ehird: not worrying too much about optimal hardware performance 23:42:02 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_addressing looks nice, but that requires hardware support, which isn't present on x86 at least. 23:42:04 oh you mean the ring0 vs ring3 task switching crap? 23:42:11 i ignored that because it's obviously fast enough 23:42:16 AnMaster: see, heres my perspective - i started using a computer in 1980, and subjectively, that was still the FASTEST computer ive ever used in terms of time-to-task in many ways 23:42:27 AnMaster: useless 23:42:34 mycroftiv, heh 23:42:36 you basically never access memory directly anyway 23:42:43 so why would I use that? 23:42:45 ehird, you don't? 23:42:50 well not in smalltalk I guess 23:43:00 correction: Not in any sane system. 23:43:10 ehird, do you want to be able to run ported programs written in other languages? 23:43:37 No. My OS doesn't have programs, it has objects. 23:43:57 Dual-booting or using a VM is infinitely preferable to breaking the model like that, because you'll just end up with something that acts like a VM anyway. 23:44:00 definitions, definitions, definitions 23:44:03 ehird, so you will need to develop your own web browser object replacement instead of creating an object that wraps webkit? 23:44:05 If you really need it, POSIX/ELF emulation layer, fully sandboxed. 23:44:09 as an example 23:44:24 AnMaster: Maybe if I was trying to freakin' make something practical I'd be cloning Linux, have you considered that? 23:44:28 mycroftiv: no, fundamental design 23:44:35 im gonna make an os where i dont have programs, i dont have objects, i have DELICIOUS CHEESECAKE and ICE CREAM and it will be great 23:44:37 ehird, I thought something usable was a goal 23:44:43 And?!! 23:44:52 as in "this is a OS I will use as my main one in 10 years time" 23:44:53 Plan 9 doesn't integrate POSIX apps either. 23:44:54 or such 23:45:00 ehird: i dont believe smalltalk and object oriented is actually 'fundamnetal' in the sense you do - i think its a perfetly valid and useful and beautiful set of abstractions 23:45:09 mycroftiv: fact is 23:45:13 but i dont think it means that a program aint a program any more, its just an objecct 23:45:14 a posix program does NOT fit in with my model 23:45:15 at all 23:45:16 thas just semantics 23:45:58 ehird, will you have some sort of window manager for the OS? 23:46:16 some "this isn't horrible X but it handles the GUI" sort of thing 23:46:35 any plans for the GUI? 23:46:35 I'm working on a hobby OS called Linux 23:46:35 Does it have a web browser yet? 23:46:41 yes. 23:46:49 but don't say GUI, there is no command line. 23:46:57 well, the bootup forth console could count. 23:48:29 it's just the ui 23:48:32 ehird, I was not saying "has it yet", I was saying "any plans for this" 23:48:37 please read what I actually said 23:48:40 nononono 23:48:41 i mean 23:48:44 don't say GUI 23:48:46 the G is redundant 23:48:49 there's just the UI 23:48:55 I meant about the "Leenus Torvalts" bit :P 23:48:57 it happens to require a graphics processor and a colour display 23:49:14 AnMaster: window manager is an implementation detail, though 23:49:17 who says i'll even use windows? 23:49:30 ehird, isn't my old vector display enough? WILL I NEED A FRAMEBUFFER? 23:49:32 ;P 23:49:38 quite so good cheap 23:49:40 ... 23:49:40 chap 23:49:52 ehird, what would you use instead of windows 23:49:58 as in, what sort of abstraction 23:50:11 who knows 23:50:27 the abstraction of "windows" while far from perfect seems to be one that "kind of works better than everything else thought of so far" 23:51:00 You know that the typical user's workflow consists of a tab bar at the bottom, with applications, and in one of those windows a tab bar at the top, being their pages, right? 23:51:11 this has nothing to do with ehird's os (since he doesnt like them) but i believe that we should replace the desktop metaphor with a namespace tree/network map 23:51:13 Floating windows aren't used by the average computer user 23:51:24 mycroftiv: wait when did i say i didn't like those 23:51:38 ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems 23:51:41 mycroftiv: oh 23:51:42 well yeah, I don't 23:51:45 I don't like trees 23:51:55 I like floating things that you can search 23:52:27 right, and my visualization is a big 'tree' that shows your file system and you can zoom in and out on the content hanging on the branches, and it also can be zoomed out to show network map of the lan, etc - show the interconnections on the workspace 23:52:27 ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems <-- that is easily solved. Don't use MacOS 23:52:38 not just a blank space full of disconnected icons 23:52:40 (HFS is short for "hierarchical file system" ;P) 23:53:10 Similarly, Mac OS is clearly an operating system for raincoats. 23:53:13 ehird, you don't like trees? You will hate implementing memory management on x86 then :D 23:53:17 And fruit. 23:53:20 it is trees. lots of them 23:53:26 page table trees 23:53:35 format dictated by hardware 23:53:47 I'll just molest x86 until it does what I want. 23:53:55 If I have to rewrite all the microcode, so be it. 23:54:10 ehird, think it is hard wired into the silicon. 23:54:12 for speed reasons 23:54:16 ehird, and the MMU 23:54:23 AnMaster: so? 23:54:30 microcode won't help 23:54:30 i'll just find some instructions that heat up the processor so much that it melts 23:54:36 and then cool down at just the right time 23:54:38 oh HCF right 23:54:38 voila! new microcode 23:54:46 ok, i meant to get some food 3 hours ago, time to avoid dying of starvation due to os discussions 23:54:59 mycroftiv: so 23:55:05 mycroftiv: I WAS THINKING ABOUT MEMORY MANAGEMENT 23:55:12 also your inability to eat. 23:57:04 ehird, memory management is fun. Getting it right is *hard* 23:57:20 Doesn't sound fun to me 23:58:22 ehird, go read some reference manuals for system programming. AMD ones are generally easier to find your way around in than intel ones. Use both for the best result 23:58:32 eh 23:58:42 I've been able to avoid any Intel/AMD manuals so far in my life 23:58:51 admittedly that makes coding asm nontrivial 23:58:55 ehird, you won't if coding a full blown OS 23:59:09 meh :D 23:59:24 ehird, handing SMP is even funnier 23:59:48 please tell me the CPU doesn't have a predefined notion of processes/threads that it uses to do that? 23:59:52 please tell me it's lower-level ;_;