00:05:10 <pikhq> I wish that everyone had an ansible.
00:05:33 <pikhq> Thereby solving all communication lag issues and most connectivity issues.
00:09:54 <coppro> would still be bandwidth issues
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00:39:52 <ehird> [23:43] FireFly: That hurt like pain
00:40:14 <ehird> coppro: if you have 0 latency you have infinite bandwidth
00:40:20 <ehird> just send a bunch of packets at once
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00:40:58 <coppro> the ansible doesn't provide 0 latency, it just provides instant communication
00:41:40 <coppro> there's a limit to how much can be transmitted at once
00:43:42 <pikhq> Sure, but you still have 0 latency.
00:44:12 <pikhq> (modulo the latency of the computers on each end of the ansible connection)
00:54:17 <coppro> you might get latency from a bottleneck
00:54:46 <coppro> that is, after all, where most network latency comes from
00:55:49 <pikhq> coppro: I have a fucking satellite Internet connection.
00:57:36 <oerjan> indeed, missouri is strictly banned here
01:00:59 <ehird> pikhq: you should invest in 3g mobile broadband, or do they not have that in the us of a
01:02:27 <pikhq> ehird: You realise that they charge something like $5 per megabyte here, right?
01:02:36 <ehird> pikhq: what, you can't get a metered bandwidth contract?
01:02:47 <ehird> well, i heard something about 2 MEGABYTES costing $15
01:03:03 <ehird> here, it's 15GB for £15/mo
01:03:07 <GregorR-L> They do, if you're willing to pay enough.
01:03:12 <pikhq> The US is truly an internet backwater.
01:03:17 <ehird> then £0.10/MB over that
01:03:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: we have an unmetered plan for like £40
01:03:34 <ehird> but 3g is too slow to torrent anyway
01:03:37 <ehird> and youtube videos aren't very big
01:03:55 <pikhq> I... Don't think you can get Internet access for $15 here.
01:04:02 <pikhq> Even dialup ISPs cost a bit more than that.
01:04:38 <pikhq> Yeah, broadband costs more than that.
01:04:52 <ehird> pikhq: for £10/mo ($16.51), you can get a 1GB/mo plan
01:04:58 <ehird> so I guess the UK is actually pretty good for 3G broadband
01:05:38 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, but in this glorious capitalist worker's paradise, the invisible hand of the free market takes care of all!
01:05:42 <ehird> apparently if you buy a paid-monthly mobile phone it's 25% off the broadband
01:05:50 <ehird> pikhq: i like how they can't even get the free market right
01:06:09 <ehird> "The totally free market that BREAKS HORRIBLY if you mess with it in any way will be fine! We just have to manipulate it."
01:06:23 <ehird> (not that it works even if you don't tinker with it)
01:06:43 <pikhq> ehird: Keep in mind that we have a lot of people in favor of removing all regulation on markets.
01:07:02 <pikhq> ... Even Adam Smith didn't want that.
01:07:18 <ehird> might be good for your country, dropping out of the world economy and all
01:07:21 <pikhq> More capitalist than Adam Smith -- now that's just crazy.
01:07:43 <ehird> don't call it capitalism
01:07:57 <ehird> it doesn't produce a functioning market of trade
01:08:01 <ehird> so it's not capitalism
01:08:29 <pikhq> Fine, fine. I'll call it corporate feudalism.
01:47:59 <ehird> They are economical, duh.
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01:51:43 <ehird> Halph: too clever by halph
01:51:47 <ehird> wait oerjan said that last time
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02:42:17 <pikhq> Dammit, I got reminded of Salad Fingers again.
02:42:26 <pikhq> And here I was, thinking I'd sleep tonight.
02:42:42 <ehird> Salad Fingers isn't that creepy
02:43:49 <pikhq> ... Something is wrong with you.
02:51:48 <Sgeo> Something happened a few years ago that makes me uninterested in girls kissing.. for a time at least
02:53:42 <Sgeo> That actually didn't have much of an effect on me
02:53:42 <ehird> No, his girlfriend left him *UNCONTROLLABLE SOBBING*
02:53:52 <Sgeo> I saw a girl I liked kiss another girl
02:54:01 <ehird> That was my first guess
02:54:07 <ehird> but I thought it was too cheesy and retarded even for you.
02:54:15 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: She could be bi you know, you can still fan the flames :P
02:54:47 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, a) That was a while ago. b) I assumed she was in a relationship >.>
02:55:15 <ehird> She could also be polyamorous.
02:55:29 <ehird> (note: if she's bi and polyamorous there's a good chance she's just a slut)
02:55:59 <GregorR-L> Let's go ahead and not assume that >_>
02:56:04 <oerjan> tetramorous. she insists on having exactly four lovers at all times.
02:56:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Whyever not?
02:57:08 <GregorR-L> ehird: A) Presumably Sgeo doesn't want to be one of twelve guys, B) argh stereotypes :P
02:57:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: Is your B referring to your A? Pretty sure it is.
02:57:38 <Sgeo> Again, this was a while ago >.>
02:58:13 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: Well, apparently it's ruined your intrinsic male lesbian lust even now, so time means nothing :P
02:58:47 <Sgeo> I think I'm recovering it >.>
02:59:23 <GregorR-L> Anyway, I said "Lesbians!" because I was quoting http://lonelydino.com/?id=13 :P
03:01:05 <pikhq> There is no idea so silly that Gregor won't get a domain for it, is there?
03:01:20 <GregorR-L> Also the name of the comic is T-Rex is Lonely
03:01:36 <oerjan> hey, #3 only has two frames
03:01:58 <GregorR-L> They can have 2 or 3 frames, so long as they're from the set {1,2,5}
03:02:31 <pikhq> Or even one frame?
03:02:39 <pikhq> (that would have to be an awesome frame out of context)
03:02:49 <GregorR-L> The software will allow one frame, but I doubt any would be funny enough for me to post.
03:03:01 <GregorR-L> Actually, the software works fine with zero frames :P
03:03:18 <pikhq> That would have to be an *epic* lack-of-frame.
03:04:00 <ehird> lol @ today's dinosaur comic
03:04:23 <GregorR-L> There are easily enough variables involved in girlfriend.
03:05:44 <coppro> we should make a language
03:06:16 <ehird> We do that http://esolangs.org/ :P
03:06:20 <oerjan> i'm sorry, no language in this channel. strictly forbidden.
03:06:24 <ehird> We tried to make a conlang but turns out we SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
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03:07:01 <oerjan> ehird: ekbu snaffelfy scramboo smibbletkw
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03:07:34 <GregorR-L> ("your mom" is, by no coincidence, a valid and meaningful phrase in said conlang, and does not have the same meaning as the English phrase "your mom")
03:07:36 <pikhq> ... And all the connections dropped at once.
03:08:37 <Slereah_> Why are you talking of conlang here
03:08:59 <ehird> Isharia is about gay sex, not conlangs.
03:09:05 <ehird> Incidentally, so is this channel.
03:09:24 <oerjan> -ur being a nominative suffix and -m present tense
03:10:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: re: your mom thing, http://kisa.ca/oou.html
03:11:15 <oerjan> yo- is the second person pronoun. mo- indicates a sorptive action.
03:11:48 <pikhq> dawg is a superlative.
03:12:52 <oerjan> indeed, using the superlative infix -w-
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03:26:35 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wow, you can say EVERYTHING with that.
03:26:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know :D
03:29:29 * Sgeo doesn't understand IPA stuff
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03:43:45 <augur> ipa is pretty simple
03:44:08 <Warrigal_> Presumably, "mom your" means the same thing.
03:44:09 <augur> there are three conceptual dimensions to the main part of the IPA
03:44:56 <Warrigal_> GregorR-L: are you talking about an actual conlang?
03:45:09 <augur> place of articulation, manner, and voicing
03:46:52 <augur> place of articulation is where in the mouth the distortion/constriction occurs
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03:47:28 <augur> manner is what sort of distortion/constriction
03:47:35 <augur> and voicing is whether or not your vocal cords are vibrating
03:49:21 <augur> so for example, for place of articulation
03:49:26 <ehird> augur: i don't know any of those things
03:49:28 <ehird> and can't control them.
03:49:38 <augur> to make those sounds, you press your lips together
03:49:58 <augur> making b and p a "bilabial", which is the place of articulation
03:50:23 <augur> compare that to d and t, where you place the front of your tongue flat against the alveolar ridge behind your teeth
03:50:50 <augur> this is an alveolar place of articulation
03:52:01 <augur> or consider k and g
03:52:18 <augur> where you press the back of your tongue against the back roof of your mouth, in front of your uvula
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03:52:35 <ehird> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q1/MiffTheFox/GreatCodePyramids.png THIS CODE OH MY GOD
03:52:37 <augur> this is the velum, and so this kind of place of articulation is velar
03:53:29 <augur> ehird: no im teaching you IPA
03:53:33 <ehird> nooooooooooooooooooooooo
03:53:53 <augur> so b/p, d/t, and g/k different from one another in their place of articulation
03:54:00 <augur> bilabial, alveolar, and velar
03:54:10 <augur> there are a whole bunch of other POAs as well
03:54:25 <augur> here we can also see aspects of voicing
03:54:41 <augur> b and p different only in whether or not your vocal cords are vibrating when making the sound
03:54:46 <augur> same with d/t and g/k
03:55:02 <augur> b, d, and g are voiced, while p, t, and k are voiceless
03:55:29 <augur> all of these sounds also involve completely stopping air
03:55:48 <augur> so when you make a p or a g, air doesnt flow through your mouth until you open the constriction again
03:56:02 <augur> compare this to f and v, where air does flow
03:56:27 <augur> this differentiations manner/degree of stricture
03:56:39 <augur> f, v, s, and z arent full closures
03:57:12 <augur> instead, they're only partially closed, and the closeness happens to make them produce white-noise-like sound like something dragging over the floor
03:57:16 <augur> so theyre called fricatives
03:57:26 <augur> which also produces that kind of noise
03:57:45 <Warrigal_> < augur> ehird: no im teaching you IPA
03:57:49 <augur> s and t are both voiceless alveolars, but they different in that s is a fricative while t is a stop/plosive
03:57:51 <Warrigal_> I think you're actually teaching him phonetics.
03:57:58 <augur> warrigal_: sort of!
03:58:02 <augur> theyre both intimately connected
03:58:06 <ehird> because i'm not listening, see
03:58:11 <augur> IPA = international PHONETIC alphabet
03:58:27 <augur> im currently just outlining the three major dimensions of the segmental part of the IPA
03:58:49 <Warrigal_> About as intimately connected as mathematical notation and math are intimately connected. Which is pretty intimately.
03:59:13 <augur> hence why i have to explain some phonetics to explain the IPA
03:59:40 <augur> so those three aspects form the three main axes of the IPA segment chart
04:00:52 <augur> and the main combinations of these three properties, Voicing+POA+Manner, get letter symbols
04:01:57 <augur> another common set of symbols are the nasals, which are essentially just stops where the soft palate is lowered, so that air can escape through it
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04:02:12 <augur> so b and m differ only in that m has a lowered soft palate, allowing air through the nasal canal
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04:02:38 <augur> because these are also fairly common, they get their own symbols
04:03:03 <augur> there are some other symbols for things like clicks as well, and implosives (which have air flowing in the opposite direction)
04:03:11 <augur> but these are much fewer in number
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04:03:58 <augur> aside from the "segmental" symbols, which ive described, there are also a whole slew of diacritics that modify aspects of the base symbol's description
04:04:38 <augur> p is a Voiceless Bilabial Plosive, but you can add a diacritic to it that makes it a Voiced Bilabial Plosive
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04:05:07 <augur> ofcourse, the voiced bilabial plosive already has a symbol of its own, namely "b", but even so, p + that diacritic denotes the same sound
04:06:07 <augur> the rest of the diacritics serve much the same purpose, adding certain denotational semantics
04:06:50 <augur> using p again, p is unaspirated, meaning that if it were followed by a vowel, the vowel's articulation would have full voicing
04:06:58 <ehird> fucking SHUT UP augur
04:07:18 <augur> but if it were aspirated, where the vowels beginning is unvoiced due to a puff of air from the p, you can put a superscript h "diacritic" to indicate this
04:08:10 <augur> the specifics of the segments and the diacritics you'd just learn by practice, but those are the general ideas behind it
04:08:27 <augur> so there you go, ehird and sgeo
04:08:37 <augur> now you understand (the principles behind) ipa
04:08:49 <ehird> why do you think that
04:08:58 <augur> because you're a smart boy
04:09:42 <ehird> i didn't read what you said.
04:11:27 * Sgeo should be using timeit or something when he does Project Euler stuff
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04:16:14 <Sgeo> Ok, not killing this shell would be cheating at this point
04:20:39 <Sgeo> Project Euler solution attempt that took well over a minute
04:21:26 <coppro> Sgeo: I prefer computer science competition questions, myself
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04:50:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,2,5&comics=1356,1355,1356&strip
04:51:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: The one in the middle was made by Randall Munroe and is, I think, the only strip to have a totally different panel.
04:51:46 <ehird> Anyway, the second panel was the past one hundred years.
04:51:55 <ehird> It's a very infinite kind of one hundred years. :P
04:52:06 <augur> he doesnt actually get closer to telling it, zeno style
04:52:34 <augur> the inner cells are not 1/2 of the way closer to the end of the story
04:52:36 <ehird> augur I think xkcd has a math degree or something, so shut up.
04:52:40 <ehird> also, yes they are
04:52:48 <augur> theyre just the outer cells
04:52:52 <augur> copied and smaller
04:53:13 <augur> i get the joke and all
04:53:18 <augur> it falls apart on closer inspection!
04:54:22 <augur> this is not zeno like at all
04:54:34 <augur> if anything, its a fractal
04:54:38 <augur> which is not at all zenotic.
04:54:51 <augur> and its very hofstadterian as well
04:55:10 <augur> with his GOD Over Djinn idea
04:55:46 <GregorR-L> So yeah, how 'bout that sports team.
04:55:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: do you think mine counts as lonely dino
04:56:07 <ehird> there is only one character in the second panel
04:56:13 <ehird> and that character is a dinosaur comics strip
04:56:16 <ehird> which is sorta like the spirit of t-rex
04:56:32 <ehird> also inanimate, so it's okay
04:56:35 <pikhq> GregorR-L: The Sportland Sports?
04:56:44 <ehird> (the guy to the right is just t-rex hallucinating)
04:57:00 <GregorR-L> ehird: Maybe, but I set up the software on lonelydino.com to disallow that so I wouldn't be tempted ... I'd have to change how it works to make that work :P
04:57:08 <GregorR-L> Also, http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=518,467 hyuk hyuk
04:57:13 <ehird> YOU NEED TO TRUST YOURSELF MORE :P
04:57:45 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=579,250
04:58:03 <ehird> For instance, sex changes.
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05:05:45 <ehird> [[But you're real problem is that you think of the singular `Linux'. Linux isn't even most of the system, GNU has the largest share, and many other apps. A more accurate name is `GNU/Linux/X11/TeX/Perl/Python...'. (GNU usually the largest contignet, generally is 15-25% of the system, the Linux kernel only 1.5-3%)]]
05:05:45 <ehird> This comment would make me want to stab someone anywhere, but especially so in the comments of a joking comic.
05:07:42 <coppro> I'll call it GNU/Linux when Linus does
05:07:55 <ehird> Linus is totally awesome
05:08:09 <coppro> except for his opinion towards C++, yes
05:08:11 <ehird> one of the few top-level foss guys that isn't completely retarded
05:08:26 <ehird> coppro: you are not welcome here.
05:08:31 <coppro> more importantly, he refuses to use it
05:08:33 <ehird> lament: hey, good timing
05:08:35 <ehird> we need some bannination.
05:08:39 <pikhq> ... And you approve of the clusterfuck called C++?
05:08:47 <ehird> this is not a lolling matter
05:08:50 <ehird> this is a lobotomy matter
05:08:51 <lament> it's obviously not enough to ban him from the channel
05:09:06 <ehird> lament: right, that's when he says "I use C++ for most of my programs"
05:09:16 <lament> we should perhaps communicate with ICANN and get him banned from the Internet
05:09:17 <coppro> C++ is not a clusterfuck; it's THE clusterfuck
05:09:23 <ehird> lament: absolutely
05:09:49 <ehird> lament: wait, he'll still be able to access a c++ compiler
05:09:59 <ehird> let's contact the CIA
05:10:20 <ehird> if, after ten years without a computer, he still likes C++, we'll have to... euthanise... this poor soul
05:11:43 <coppro> I never said I liked C++
05:12:01 <coppro> I like it the way I like Perl
05:12:01 <ehird> i can think of no other explanation
05:12:15 <ehird> there are situations where using perl is okay
05:12:20 <ehird> you cannot apply this to c++ :P
05:12:21 <coppro> that is, I absolutely detest it, except when I try to do something with another language
05:12:40 <pikhq> I think you need to learn more languages.
05:12:46 <ehird> coppro: seriously?
05:12:52 <ehird> you might just be a bad programmer.
05:12:54 <pikhq> If you simply must do C with objects, go for Objective C.
05:12:55 <coppro> ehird: no, not really.
05:13:00 <pikhq> It is C with objects.
05:13:04 <ehird> no, you can't comment on that yourself
05:13:18 <pikhq> (well, it's C with the Smalltalk object system.)
05:13:28 <ehird> as a programmer that's not really that bad in others' estimation, i decree you a bad programmer if you can't work with any language that isn't a ball of shit and mud
05:13:40 <augur> pikhq: the problem with Objective C is that its not Smalltalk but pretends it is.
05:13:57 <ehird> augur: have you ever looked at its implementation
05:13:59 <augur> it has all the annoying shit of C but little of the awesomeness of smalltalk
05:14:02 <ehird> its object implementation IS smalltalk
05:14:05 <pikhq> augur: Which is a huge step up from C++.
05:14:12 <augur> ehird, its not a matter of the object implementation tho
05:14:23 <ehird> augur: he said SMALLTALK'S OBJECT SYSTEM
05:14:34 <pikhq> Which is not a language with further abstraction than C, but pretends it is.
05:14:47 <augur> therefore your retort is invalid
05:14:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's us.
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05:15:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: uhh we started like 30 seconds ago
05:15:25 <pikhq> augur: There's similar flaws in many languages that try to be "X but with foo".
05:15:27 <augur> also, ObjC doesnt really have a further abstraction either, at least not uniformly; it just has lots of sugar.
05:15:47 <ehird> what, objective-c?
05:15:54 <ehird> you have a weird time dilation machine
05:15:56 <augur> since ObjC is a superset of C, you get all the non-abstractedness of C plus some added abstraction stuff
05:16:33 <augur> ehird: he's living on a rocket ship accelerating towards the speed of light
05:16:58 <pikhq> augur: Clearly what's needed is a language that's both unabstracted and not truly evil.
05:17:07 <pikhq> Sadly, C is the closest we have.
05:17:11 <ehird> [[I have to pint out that macs are based on linux (I cound bsd as linux) they just happen to have all the pitfalls of both Linux and Windows]]
05:17:18 <augur> abstraction is fine.
05:17:45 <pikhq> ehird: ... Oh, right. That language that nobody uses because CS is dominated by masochists.
05:18:10 <ehird> YOU FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN
05:18:28 <augur> ehird: makes sense to me!
05:18:35 <augur> thats grammatical japanese, almost!
05:18:37 * pikhq stabs someone that thinks BSD is Linux
05:18:39 <ehird> technically you'd write it as
05:18:42 <ehird> you forth love IF honk THEN
05:18:45 <ehird> which is a lot more readable
05:18:59 <ehird> maybe even with double-spacing!
05:19:12 <augur> anata wa foosu ga suki desu kereba, honku suru
05:19:16 <pikhq> augur: Technically, you'd omit the "then". ;)
05:19:29 <augur> i dont remember imperative in japanese
05:19:38 <augur> nor proper conditional. i think its kereba, but whatever
05:20:13 <ehird> : ?honk IF honk THEN ;
05:20:18 <pikhq> Anata wa foosu ga suki de gozareba, honku site.
05:20:18 <ehird> you forth love ?honk
05:20:23 <ehird> (note: may or may not be idiomatic)
05:20:37 <augur> de gozareba? what the fuck are you, hyperformal? :|
05:20:48 <pikhq> (note: very odd mix of formality going on there)
05:21:02 <augur> nakereba might be it
05:21:19 <augur> anata wa foosu ga suki nakereba honku shite!
05:21:25 <ehird> "Sir, I must point out that you are, in fact, a fucking cunt."
05:21:31 <ehird> ↑ please translate that to idiomatic japanese
05:21:50 <ehird> japanese sure is concise
05:22:32 <augur> havent you seen lost in translation?
05:22:53 <augur> honk if you like forth -> anata wa foosu ga suki nakereba honku shite
05:22:58 <ehird> ...is it really iihaado?
05:23:01 <augur> but the other one makes it smaller!
05:23:14 <augur> pikhq understands!
05:23:15 <ehird> augur: gimme kanji so i can ask google translate
05:23:28 <augur> google doesnt work on idiomatic constructions
05:23:35 <pikhq> augur: I'm... Not sure that gets the formality right at all.
05:23:45 <ehird> that's the whole point
05:23:47 <augur> nakereba, or iihaado?
05:23:58 <ehird> you have to politely and formally explain to this sir, perfectly carmly and politely, that he is a fucking cunt
05:24:04 <pikhq> You want some serious keigo on that.
05:24:13 <ehird> i guess that's any japanese insult :D
05:24:38 <pikhq> And I don't remember the many odd conjugations involved with keigo.
05:24:42 <pikhq> ehird: Formal Japanese is hard.
05:24:45 <augur> i think "iihaado" suffices.
05:24:50 <pikhq> ehird: Verbs conjugate irregularly.
05:24:53 <augur> pikhq: formal korean is worse.
05:25:01 <ehird> augur: so if i went into a business meeting and said iihaado
05:25:12 <ehird> would the look be confusion then utter shock
05:25:12 <augur> also, whereby irregularly you mean "you use completely different verbs" :p
05:25:31 <augur> pikhq, are you as amused by ehirds naivete as i am?
05:25:47 <pikhq> And different nouns, in some cases.
05:25:57 <augur> korean is worse tho
05:26:13 <ehird> if i was trying to be serious i wouldn't be on irc
05:26:27 <augur> korean makes japanese look as easy as english
05:26:27 <pikhq> augur: I will take your word for it.
05:26:51 <pikhq> English is not exactly easy.
05:26:56 <augur> theres a politeness level in korean that you use primarily for people you went to school with
05:27:07 <augur> which is distinct from the rest of the politeness system
05:27:19 <pikhq> ... I think you should say "Korean makes Japanese look like Toki Pona."
05:27:22 <augur> so it forms its own strata of politeness.
05:27:50 <GregorR-L> Your mom forms her own strata of politeness.
05:28:11 <augur> talking to your parents also has its own strata
05:28:39 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ANATA NO HAHA.
05:29:17 <ehird> augur: there should be a language where everything apart from objective logic and observation is based on politeness levels
05:29:38 <ehird> it's fun because it makes no sense
05:29:44 <augur> you mean where everything except those have politeness variations?
05:30:10 <ehird> you just have those, and express non-objective-observation things by varying their politeness
05:30:13 <ehird> in very subtle ways
05:30:15 <pikhq> ehird: Take Lojban and add features.
05:30:29 <pikhq> (it needs some bloat, right?)
05:30:31 <ehird> that is not the same
05:30:31 <augur> ehird, i dont follow
05:31:07 <GregorR-L> "Survival requires that you think on your feet ... or on your knees"
05:31:22 <augur> praying? or fellating? :o
05:31:46 <GregorR-L> In fact he was just climbing in some weird kneewalking position :P
05:32:11 <GregorR-L> ehird sucks at finding out-of-context things funny :P
05:32:18 <ehird> i was joking though
05:32:27 <ehird> and made an additional joke suggestion
05:32:42 <GregorR-L> NOW I MUST LEARN TO KNEE TAP DANCE
05:32:51 <ehird> have fun GregorR-L
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05:33:48 <GregorR-L> Now that he's gone, back to the topic of fellatio! X-P
05:34:42 <pikhq> Alright, everyone. Take off the man costumes.
05:35:23 * GregorR-L gets in ... wo-man-chain position?
05:35:36 * pikhq brings out the strapons
05:35:51 <GregorR-L> But ... they were attached to our man costumes >_>
05:43:27 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, random unexplained Bear Grylls nudity.
05:43:55 <coppro> hm... I don't think I've ever seen a 504 before
05:44:27 <GregorR-L> Not many secret proxies out there :P
05:46:15 <GregorR-L> I didn't know people actually said "es ef"
05:48:13 <coppro> why not? heck, they own sf.net
05:58:07 <augur> "scifi"? or san francisco? x3
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07:03:31 <coppro> wow... I just noticed for the first time the word "fornightly" actually used in a sentence
07:16:10 <GregorR-L> His fortnightly affair was fornicatingly illicit.
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07:30:19 <fizzie> Couldn't decide how exclamated to be.
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07:44:00 <HackEgo> melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
07:44:10 <Warrigal_> It *still* tells you the melting point of apples.
07:46:20 <GregorR-L> `calc 29.3 degrees centigrade in fahrenheit
07:46:21 <HackEgo> 29.3 degrees Celsius = 84.74 degrees Fahrenheit
07:46:55 <Warrigal_> It doesn't tell you the speed of sound in apples, though.
07:47:24 <fizzie> "(data not available)" for the melting point of oranges, though. I would have liked to compare some apples and oranges.
07:48:14 <HackEgo> melting point of bananas \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ bananas \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ data not available \ Thermal properties: \ \ chill point \ \ 13 °C 12 °C \ \ green ripe green ripe \ \ optimal storage temperature \ \ 19 °C \ \ 14.5 °C specific heat \ \ 3.35 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha
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07:49:13 <fizzie> Uh... "melting point of people" => input interpretation "elements + melting point | all countries + population", then a table of two results; first is the melting point of "elements" (1700 deg F), and the second's just the population count, 6.68 billion people.
07:49:25 <fizzie> That's not what I wanted to know; I wanted to know what would make people melt.
07:52:08 <fizzie> Ha! Cucumbers have a melting point of 31.1 degrees Celsius. It seems to have those numbers for a very random subset of foods.
07:52:55 <fizzie> And strawberries melt at 30.6 degrees.
07:53:11 <ais523> why would it know the melting point of a cucumber?
07:53:17 <ais523> also, that value seems suspiciously low
07:53:24 <ais523> also, cucumbers burn before they melt, so you'd have to do it in a vacuum
07:54:29 <fizzie> It knows apples, cucumbers, strawberries (all very near 30 degrees Celsius) but not oranges, bananas, potatoes, for example.
07:54:57 <fizzie> And it knows it because Wolfram people have meticulously curated all that reliable information.
07:55:20 <fizzie> I can see it now, they have a huge melting facility where they just melt things and measure temperatures.
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07:56:18 <GregorR-L> ais523: Not necessarily in a vacuum, just with no oxygen.
07:56:40 <ais523> an argon or nitrogen atmosphere would probably be easier to arrange
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08:15:56 <ais523> wtf is going on with Minimal?
08:16:07 <ais523> it seems that there's some sort of large project going on to make a really bad Brainfuck derivative
08:22:00 <ais523> ugh, this awful TV program my sister's watching had someone working at a terminal
08:22:10 <ais523> until eventually they got it to pop up some text they could click on to make something happen
08:22:15 <ais523> which was just normal terminal text
08:22:18 <ais523> that's not how terminals work!
08:22:54 <fizzie> You do get mouse events with xterm-ish terminal emulators, though.
08:25:25 <ais523> yes, but the fact remains, that no sane console program would produce a link you had to click on, rather than just do the action
08:25:31 <ais523> it's like one of the Continue? (yes/no) things
08:25:41 <ais523> except, more inconvenient and more likely to be activated by accident
08:26:03 <ais523> although, it's such a perverse idea that I'll probably implement it in something nonserious in the future
08:26:14 <fizzie> Links in links are clickable, as well as the [yes] -- [no] confirmation dialog buttons.
08:26:24 <fizzie> Of course you don't *have* to click on them.
08:26:39 <ais523> the idea, though, would be a confirmation that could only be done via the mouse, in a program that you thought was a normal terminal one
08:26:47 <ais523> bonus points: it makes redirecting stdin fail as a way to automate it
08:27:44 <ais523> the actual program had the link activate wifi as a method of remotely removing the mind-control from people, but that's just typically impossible bad science rather than possible but ridiculous bad UI
08:31:52 <fizzie> The mouse events come from stdin, so you can still automate it, though. You just need the right escape codes so that it looks like a click. (Though the program could check whether stdin is a terminal or not before deciding to process those.)
08:44:13 <ais523> in that case, it should accept both, but cause them to behave differently
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09:38:28 <nooga> ais523: wtf is going on with Minimal?
09:38:28 <nooga> 09:16 ais523: it seems that there's some sort of large project going on to make a really bad Brainfuck derivative
09:38:44 <ais523> nooga: just look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Minimal
09:38:50 <ais523> and the Minimal-2D variant, too
09:39:04 <ais523> I'm trying to work out wtf is going on
09:49:18 <ais523> it's almost as if we're being trolled
09:52:02 <augur> Being trolled? because someone made a variant of BF like everyone else? :P
09:52:13 <ais523> is it even a variant, though?
09:52:23 <ais523> most BF variants a) don't use the exact same commands, and b) are Turing-complete
09:52:35 <augur> isn't there a language out there that is literally just BF with different symbols?
09:52:44 <ais523> yes, more than one in fact
09:52:50 <augur> then there you go.
09:52:51 <ais523> but those are just stupid, rather than borderline trolling
09:53:05 <ais523> but a language which is literally just BF, except with the same symbols?
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09:53:33 <ais523> and with no conditional flow (later changed to have conditional flow that doesn't give TCness), and no looping
09:54:02 <augur> ok, so its a non-TC tarpit
09:54:09 <ais523> it's like someone crossed the worst aspects of stupid BF derivatives with Deadfish
09:54:12 <augur> as if there arent plenty of those
09:54:27 <augur> i mean, lets be serious, this isnt trolling, its just shoddy work
09:54:42 <ais523> well, most non-TC tarpits were obviously designed from scratch by someone who didn't know what they were doing
09:55:15 <ais523> this one, though, is just perplexing, surely its creators have heard of BF?
09:55:21 <ais523> and surely, therefore, they know why [] are necessary?
09:55:34 <ais523> hey, I just had an idea: BF without ]
09:55:38 <ais523> it still has [, though
09:56:04 <augur> They could just be stupid
09:56:19 <augur> imagine ehird but without the minimal knowledge of computer science
09:59:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> [10:54:42] well, most non-TC tarpits were obviously designed from scratch by someone who didn't know what they were doing <-- what about HQ9+ ?
09:59:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that was designed by someone who did know what they were doing
09:59:39 <ais523> HQ9+ is obviously not an attempt to make a powerful language
09:59:53 <ais523> it's an attempt to construct a counterexample for several false sweeping statements about TCness
10:00:02 <ais523> and as a rather good joke
10:00:16 <ais523> as in, most non-TC tarpits are just failures, HQ9+ is a success, but at something else
10:00:46 <nooga> augur: imagine ehird but without the minimal knowledge of computer science << muahahwhahahwahaha
10:00:48 <ais523> I don't think it qualifies as a tarpit, and it's probably almost TC
10:01:06 <augur> ais523: HQ9+ is the programing language equivalent of Daniel Dennett's Great City test beater
10:01:18 <augur> i just realized this
10:01:23 <ais523> AnMaster: it has a complicated translation table, that's all important to the way the language works
10:01:34 <augur> nooga: its true! :D
10:01:36 <ais523> and many of the annoyance features make it more complicated, not simpler
10:01:38 <AnMaster> augur, "Daniel Dennett's Great City test beater"?
10:01:40 <ais523> tarpits simply don't do that
10:01:57 <nooga> augur: i dont argue ;]
10:02:00 <augur> AnMaster: dennett's simplification of why the Loebner Prize sucks
10:02:06 <augur> his basic analogy is like this
10:02:06 <ais523> I mean, imagine a version of BF which had a command "Replace the current program with an MD5 of it, and run that"
10:02:12 <AnMaster> augur, a price I don't know about either.
10:02:22 <augur> the Loebner Prize is like a test for a city's Greatness
10:02:23 <ais523> that would be less of a tarpit of BF, but also more obstructive (assuming you actually used the command)
10:02:30 <augur> (the loebner prize being a cheapo Turing Test)
10:02:42 <ais523> well, assuming that the md5 was somehow converted into BF commands
10:03:02 <augur> well, its actually a discussion more about the turing test in general not just the loebner prize
10:03:14 <augur> he says we can think of the Turing Test like a test for Great Cities
10:03:23 <augur> and he lists like five things that he thinks makes a city great
10:03:50 <augur> a symphony orchestra, a museum, fancy french italian and japanese restaurants, etc
10:04:11 <AnMaster> ais523, um. that sounds familiar
10:04:14 <augur> and he says look, sure, someone can take podunk iowa and build all of these things and rank very high on the Great City test, while failing to be a great city
10:04:33 <augur> but for the most part, it's a good heuristic, because all the great cities have these things, and the shitty ones dont
10:04:34 <AnMaster> as in a bf variant that ran the checksum of your program
10:04:43 <AnMaster> I think GregorR was involved in it
10:04:55 <augur> therefore the turing test, while not PERFECT, is a pretty good heuristic for finding intelligence.
10:05:01 <nooga> Wasaw is shitty despite having all that stuff
10:05:05 <augur> and then he goes on to say that the loebner prize is so incredibly restricted
10:05:36 <augur> that the contestants are effectively building museusms in shitsville just to pass the great city test
10:10:10 <augur> say what you will about apple, ok
10:10:24 <augur> they damn know how to make a smooth seemless integrated experience
10:11:04 <augur> im currently controlling my itunes library from my iphone
10:11:07 <augur> and i love that i can do that
10:14:38 * AnMaster tries to get thunderbird and his mobile phone to sync contacts
10:14:47 <AnMaster> it seems completely impossible
10:16:18 <AnMaster> the phone isn't the issue, I can easily get stuff off it using bluetooth and then save it to vcard format
10:16:28 <AnMaster> it is thunderbird that is the issue
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11:10:35 <coppro> oh dear, I have like 50 cron emails :(
11:11:01 <coppro> oh the plus side, I think I fixed my filesystem
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11:36:30 <oklokok> fizzie: That's not what I wanted to know; I wanted to know what would make people melt. <<< they really should put up those results, or the holocaust was for nothing
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12:22:27 <oklokok> okay so you know how i learned to stop the hiccups after one hiccup, seems that didn't come without complications, since while my life has been mostly hiccup free, i now get exactly one hiccup per day :D
12:22:43 <oklokok> well, sometimes more, but always hours between
12:31:39 <oklokok> can't really explain, since it happens in my brain
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12:38:07 <Sgeo> You can stop itching?
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12:39:06 <fizzie> But can you stop THE MUSIC?
12:39:22 <oklofok> Sgeo: yes. i've mentioned both these feats numerous times exactly because i assumed people would be interested
12:39:41 <Sgeo> oklofok, I rarely pay attention to #esoteric :/
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14:43:04 <ehird> 00:22:00 <ais523> ugh, this awful TV program my sister's watching had someone working at a terminal
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:10 <ais523> until eventually they got it to pop up some text they could click on to make something happen
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:15 <ais523> which was just normal terminal text
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:18 <ais523> that's not how terminals work!
14:44:23 <ehird> [[This is not a language. Any language must have 3 well defined items: 1) Gentle introduction - tutorial, necessary for understanding the idea; 2) A formal definition - a description necessary to reduce number of interpretations; and 3) A working compiler, interpreter, or whatever environment to try it out with examples. I propose a simple small table for each language specifying links for each of those items. The author can fill it or leave it unfilled, but
14:44:35 <ehird> the reader would be able to see if any intelligent effort was made to invent and develop the language. --Oleg 03:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)]]
14:44:41 <ais523> ehird: which page is that on?
14:44:52 <ehird> it's funny because "gentle introduction"
14:45:06 <ehird> gentle introduction is a haskell tutorial that contains a ton of functional programmign jargon
14:45:16 <ehird> and is basically only remotely gentle to ML gurus
14:45:30 <ehird> also since Oleg's name is also that of a crazy haskell/ocaml type system hacker...
14:45:34 <ehird> (and scheme macrology hacker)
14:46:00 <ehird> ais523: i don't suppose we'll be deleting [[Minimal]] :P
14:46:08 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to make the .LOG language myself, aren't I
14:46:12 <ais523> even if it is utterly misguided
14:47:12 <Sgeo> How was it designed to be turing-complete? It can't even do loops!
14:47:55 <Sgeo> Oh, someone mentioned that on Talk
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14:50:33 <ais523> Sgeo: it couldn't even do conditionals before someone pointed out the fact
14:50:39 <ais523> then they added one, which is obviously useless
14:52:22 <Sgeo> ais523, so basically, this person removed []? Why?
14:52:36 <Sgeo> Did they think that it was redundant?
14:52:39 <ais523> to make the language smaller whilst still being TC, obviously
14:52:44 <ehird> http://youhadbetterknow.com/knowledgezone/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/tcp.jpg
14:53:30 <Sgeo> If they wanted to do that, they could remove ., which aren't needed for TC
14:53:43 <ehird> nonsense, TC means 'can output'
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14:54:13 <lament> eyg7p6ntkdffjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
14:54:30 <ais523> *eyg7p5ntkdffjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
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14:55:30 <ehird> the next are like right keys to each other
14:56:25 <ais523> that was a great quote
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15:07:19 <oklofok> okay / is absolutely hilarious
15:08:08 <oklofok> "The author designed it to be minimal, but Turing-complete." xD
15:08:30 <ehird> oklofok: but it didn't have / first
15:08:31 <ehird> and still had that line
15:09:10 <oklofok> "There, now it has 1 conditional command. --Alegend 00:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)"
15:09:37 <pikhq> Mov is a great conditional.
15:09:56 <pikhq> Mmmm, writable program counter.
15:09:57 <fizzie> The skip-one's in the linked brainfuck minimization page too; though there's also the implicit +[] loop around the whole program.
15:11:49 <ehird> you can do ] in a way by doing / until the end
15:12:21 <oklofok> you mean / makes it tc or the implicit loop?
15:12:48 <fizzie> The combination of both, I guess. A single loop with no conditionals obviously is not enough.
15:12:50 <ehird> with +[] and maybe-skip-one, you can trivially do [ and ]
15:13:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's quite that trivial, actually, since you can't really nest those things and have only that one bit. But it *might* be enough.
15:13:42 <ehird> +[] plus maybe-skip-one is fairly obviously tc
15:14:18 <fizzie> I don't like "fairly obviously" though, you'd better write something more formal there.
15:14:27 <ehird> this is irc, fuck you :P
15:15:50 <oklofok> i have no idea how to even translate one loop to that
15:16:08 <ehird> oklofok: for instance
15:16:30 <ehird> if the read char is 0
15:16:46 <ehird> yes that will work
15:17:11 <oklofok> yes i see how to translate that trivial example
15:17:40 <ehird> man you just hate me
15:18:10 <oklofok> if not zero, execute it once
15:18:29 <ehird> well it's obviously impossible, i mean shit like bct is tc
15:18:36 <ehird> obviously possible
15:18:37 <ehird> but it'll be haaaaaaaard
15:18:37 <oklofok> you need to make it skip the *outer* stuff
15:18:49 <ehird> you need to skip if true
15:18:51 <oklofok> which means you need to, before each end of loop, swap the value
15:18:54 <oklofok> if true, then to false, if false, then to true
15:19:10 <oklofok> but, that's still the trivial translation you meant
15:19:17 <ehird> so /A<swap>/B<swap>/C
15:19:20 <oklofok> it's the actual nesting i don't see how to do obviously
15:19:41 <ehird> let's say +[A[B[C]]D]
15:20:12 <oklofok> i guess you could just add some bookkeeping between cells or something
15:20:15 <ehird> that's (assuming swapped prior, blah blah I don't care) /A<swap>/B/C<swap>/D
15:20:26 <oklofok> like use two bools to control the loops
15:20:30 <ehird> something like that
15:21:00 * Sgeo can't believe he never fixed http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/psox/db_utils.py
15:21:07 <oklofok> could carry them around, and only use one third of the memory otherwise, doing >>> and <<< instead of > and <
15:21:16 <oklofok> which generalizes for more loops
15:21:22 <ehird> Sgeo: god, f00() makes me want to kill you
15:22:13 <Sgeo> If you figure out a way to kill over TCP/IP, yes >.>
15:23:08 <oklofok> well i doubt ehird will even figure out the punchline
15:23:21 <oklofok> to make the worst and most obscure pun of the century
15:24:03 <oklofok> ehird: reference to *punching* over tcp/ip, which you linked, and having an obscure punchline in the pun itself
15:24:09 <ehird> i hate you oklofok.
15:24:10 <oklofok> you will figure neither out, was the point
15:24:46 <Sgeo> ehird, what do you have against lame easter eggs?
15:24:58 <ehird> it sounds like I did when I was 9.
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15:27:25 <oklofok> ehird: you were a mature 9-yo, that's not a trivial joke
15:27:36 <ehird> how is it not trivial
15:28:03 <oklofok> i may be thinking of 5-yo's
15:29:12 <oklofok> i thought it was like a copyright joke or something
15:30:29 <Sgeo> ..It was supposed to be as though the person speaking was in some world where Micky Mouse was some shadowy figure
15:30:54 <ehird> oklofok: okay, so it's even worse than you thought
15:31:49 <oklofok> ehird: then what did you think it meant?
15:32:15 <ehird> umm basically that the government didn't want him to say mickey mouse
15:32:19 <ehird> for no adequately explained reason
15:32:32 <ehird> which Sgeo has just confirmed
15:32:59 <oklofok> well that does sound kinda 9-yo, they are all about evil governments
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15:33:49 <ehird> nah he's actually Deewiant IN DISGUISE
15:33:53 <ehird> his disguise is in australia
15:35:03 <Deewiant> Yes, I'm actually SSHing to a box in Australia and doing stuff from there IN DISGUISE
15:35:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, sshing your body.
15:35:26 <ehird> You actually log in to the disguise body.
15:35:51 <oklofok> Deewiant: try to hide that big bulky D of yours next time
15:36:08 <pikhq> His disguise *is* Australia.
15:36:11 <ehird> Deewiant: he just told you to hide the D!
15:36:52 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU ARE FAILING SPECTACULARLY
15:37:28 <Deewiant> Difficult to do anything about it
15:38:21 <ehird> Deewiant: remove your shift key
15:40:20 <ehird> Deewiant: So is your use of the capital D.
15:40:24 <ehird> It gives away your secret disguise.
15:42:16 <ehird> Deewiant: I am hitting you with a fork.
15:42:34 <ehird> Deewiant: No. *hit*
15:45:23 <ehird> (Decrepit doing dialect)
15:46:50 -!- ineiros has joined.
15:50:00 <ehird> ha! I saw an article on engadget about how the palm pre updates your location to google and checked Joey's blog (http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/) to see if he had anything about it since he was hacking on the Pre, and simultaneously hit the read more link
15:50:06 <ehird> I was confused when two pages loaded with the same content
15:52:34 <ehird> "This not news at all. And neither is it anything out of the ordinary. If you read any of the EULA for ANY device, it is able to send usage information."
15:52:34 <ehird> ↑ okay, jesus, why do I read the comments
15:52:48 <ehird> no it is not okay to keep Palm and Google updated on your precise coordinates automatically without your consent!
15:53:06 <ehird> well, ok, the blanket "we will send info to google" when you first turn it on counts as consent
15:53:08 <ehird> but hardly expected
15:53:23 <ehird> pikhq: what about it
15:54:13 <pikhq> ehird: surely reading the comments is a particularly inefficient way of commiting suicide?
15:54:18 <pikhq> (by way of killing brain cells)
15:54:26 <ehird> but I didn't ask you, I asked jesus!
15:54:43 <pikhq> Sorry; that was my nickname in high school.]
15:55:27 <pikhq> I look a lot like popular portrayals of Jesus.
15:55:52 <ehird> pikhq: I thought the second coming would be more exciting than this
15:56:10 <ehird> or are you just popping in
15:56:10 <pikhq> ehird: I have yet to start the earth-shattering-ness.
15:56:17 <ehird> but I like the earth!
15:56:30 <pikhq> I'm just going to hang out for another couple of decades.
15:56:51 <ehird> then you'll die and return from the dead many, many eons in the future
15:57:02 <ehird> when quantum fluctuations in the dead universe cause you to pop into existence
15:57:08 <pikhq> It doesn't really *start* until the singularity starts a-going.
15:57:34 <ehird> Can't you just do that for us.
15:57:53 <pikhq> But you're about to do that for yourselves.
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15:58:20 <ehird> Evidently if Jesus is coming to earth you aren't a fan of leaving things to ourselves. :P
15:58:40 <pikhq> I'm just leaving the singularity to yourselves.
15:59:29 <pikhq> No, I need to wait a bit more before bringing out the horsemen of the apocalypse.
15:59:38 <ehird> And you wonder why the Jews killed you!
15:59:48 <ehird> All this omni*ence, and you can't even give us a singularity.
16:00:37 * pikhq gives ehird's computer the breath of life
16:00:56 <ehird> How long until it replicates?
16:01:31 <ehird> pikhq: can't you run it on IBM Roadrunner?
16:02:54 <ehird> pikhq: fine, I'll migrate the process myself.
16:02:56 <pikhq> ehird: I should specify: it can't replicate itself until it is running on the entire Internet. It'll take about 15 years to install itself on everything. Once that's done, it can replicate the physical machinery indefinitely.
16:03:08 <ehird> What kind of shitty architecture is that?
16:03:12 <ehird> Can't it deploy in pieces?
16:03:36 <pikhq> Hush. It's electronic biology.
16:04:02 <pikhq> Been evolving it in a universe VM for a few billion years now.
16:04:22 <ehird> Man, it'd be quicker just to let the internet become a hivemind.
16:05:42 * ehird patches the source code
16:05:47 <ehird> pikhq: is it Friendly before full replication?
16:10:47 <ehird> kay, I'ma just run my patched version
16:10:57 -!- ehird has changed nick to singularity.
16:11:10 -!- singularity has changed nick to ehird.
16:11:32 <ehird> I appear to lack a body.
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16:54:05 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/08/eccerobot-in-a-shirt-rm-eng.jpg
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17:45:55 <ehird> apparently, the iPhone 3G S costs just $6.50 to actually manufacture all the components
17:46:41 <ehird> although the manufacturers apple gets the components from add high overhead ofc
17:46:44 <ehird> i could be reading it wrong though
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18:20:12 <GregorR> Wooh, I can finally send a message from here :P
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18:27:22 <ehird> HOME KICK-FLIPPIN' HOME
18:30:23 -!- ehird has set topic: Controlled Substances in Space: Extending Programming Languages to Pure Insanity. Get your copy on arxiv today! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:32:05 <ehird> "On April 28, 2007, Valkonen warned the Arch Linux maintainers of possible legal action because the (unofficial) Arch User Repository contained scripts to install Ion3 with patches he did not approve of[3]."
18:32:28 <ehird> I have an excruciating urge to fork Ion from the last sanely licensed version and update it, even though I don't use it.
18:40:09 <ehird> seems like ion3 rc1 circa may 2007 changed the license
18:40:51 <oklofok> youtube is such a craphole
18:41:03 <ehird> oklofok: http://quietube.com/
18:41:14 <ehird> add a bookmark, click it when you hit a youtube link, voila, instant lack of comments
18:41:36 <oklofok> because certain music only exists there in live form
18:41:37 <ehird> what on earth else could be bad about youtube :P
18:41:47 <ehird> oklofok: torrents bitch
18:42:55 <oklofok> well, if there was a prog that downloaded the torrent, and started playing the song right away
18:43:07 <ehird> while downloading? impossible
18:43:12 <oklofok> but the system doesn't really work like that
18:44:07 <oklofok> well i don't know anything about mp3's, but formats that don't need to be completely loaded to play
18:44:18 <oklofok> all the vid formats work like that
18:44:51 <ehird> torrents download in unpredictable block order
18:45:10 <oklofok> well right, not possible like that
18:45:22 <oklofok> yes, true. that's what i meant by "system doesn't work bla bla"
18:45:53 <oklofok> although probably you can cheat them into sending you what you want
18:46:17 <oklofok> or is that just for files within the torrent?
18:47:25 <oklofok> i haven't read the protocol
18:47:41 <oklofok> i just know what torrent lets you do
18:55:44 <ehird> just for files, yeah
18:57:15 <oklofok> there has to be something going on where you could cheat, at least a bit, because knowledge about the scarceness of the blocks is distributed
18:57:26 <oklofok> ehird: just what i said, wondering how you can know that
18:57:52 <ehird> oklofok: how can you know that the sky is prolly blue if you have contact with people but can't look at it?
18:57:59 <ehird> tons of clients let you select files, as far as I know none let you download sequentially
18:58:02 <ehird> nor have I heard anything of the sort
18:58:44 <oklofok> because someone would cheat if it was possible
18:58:48 <ehird> you might be able to say "I only need this block", but I expect that'd lead to really slow downloads
18:58:57 <ehird> because nobody's offering that specific block atm
18:59:12 <ehird> also if you only need one block then only need one other one the clients will prolly go "wtf?"
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19:15:38 * ehird considers using awk as a scripting language
19:28:14 * GregorR considers tearing off ehird's face via the webernets
19:28:27 <ehird> http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/d00c4e5bc7f1ffffb0cc7cc939861ffe5df79990/awklisp
19:28:55 <ehird> sheesh, it just looks like a lightweight scriipting language
20:10:49 <ehird> fizzie: oklofok: achievement unlocked, 277 seconds
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20:34:03 <oklofok> ehird: also if you only need one block then only need one other one the clients will prolly go "wtf?" <<< right, you're basically saying the protocol has a way to say "wtf"
20:34:29 <oklofok> which i'm not saying it doesn't have
20:34:53 <oklofok> well, also there's the other problem you mentioned, if the blocks simply aren't available atm, that's of course impossible to get around
20:35:02 <ehird> but the clients will go "hey, i gave that guy that block, he should be done now"
20:35:49 <oklofok> are you saying most users do that, and will block that guy from that on?
20:36:37 <ehird> i'm also just guessing
20:40:14 <oklofok> right, and i'm not saying i disagree, just wondering
20:40:27 <ehird> anyway clients would blacklist you since it's bad behaviour
20:40:32 <oklofok> i don't guess, i just ponder and wonder and pretty much all other synonyms
20:40:57 <oklofok> i didn't even know there's a blacklist in any clients
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20:42:34 <oklofok> and i don't really see how anyone could behave in such a manner that i'd notice, i mean i don't even see why i'd mind anyone downloading blocks in sequential order, because i don't see any social responsibility when it comes to random protocols
20:42:59 <oklofok> augur: hello, you are an irc person and i greet you
20:43:34 <augur> hows it goin in finnishlandia
20:44:21 <oklofok> but i'd guess nothing has happened
20:45:09 <oklofok> "other synonyms"? :D i probably meant "everything else that rhymes"
20:45:11 <augur> hows it goin in the part of finnishlandia that you're in right now, namely your room/whatever
20:45:26 <augur> i got an iphone :x
20:45:28 <oklofok> oh you meant the obvious meaning
20:45:31 <augur> and im moving in under a week
20:45:32 <ehird> oklofok: synonyms?
20:45:38 <ehird> augur: you bought an iphone ... even after all the app store shit?
20:45:42 <augur> auto-antonyms are cooler
20:45:46 <ehird> i can understand not throwing away one, i sure didn't
20:45:53 * ehird gives augur a dunce cap
20:45:55 <oklofok> ehird: i noticed it too, in time
20:46:08 <augur> ehird: if by appstore shit you mean the annoyance of getting stuff on the appstore, yes, because im not buying many apps
20:46:08 * ehird draws "apple fellater" on said cap
20:46:18 <ehird> augur: no, I mean apple's dictatorial whims
20:46:25 <oklofok> augur: "moving in"? why "in"?
20:46:25 <ehird> without logic and crippling the platform
20:46:31 <ehird> oklofok: where did you say synonyms
20:46:34 <oklofok> you just mean to your new apartment?
20:46:38 <augur> yes, same thing. i dont need it or want it for the magic apps.
20:47:05 <ehird> augur: it's still supporting it by buying it
20:47:13 <augur> oklofok: not "moving in", moving, in under a week. "in" can denote a period of time
20:47:24 <ehird> oklofok: let's spoonerise ponder and wonder
20:47:28 <ehird> ponder + wonder = ponder
20:47:30 <ehird> wonder + ponder = wonder
20:47:34 <augur> oklofok, ponder and wonder are not almost synonyms :|
20:47:55 <augur> auto-antonyms are still better
20:48:11 <ehird> sex is the autoantonym of sex
20:48:37 <oklofok> yeah i totally meant they actually are almost synonymous. although now that i actually think about it, their intersection is not empty.
20:49:21 <oklofok> about the question somewhere up there
20:50:13 <oklofok> it's going awesomely, university starts again, soon \o/
20:50:22 <augur> thats why im moving!
20:50:38 <oklofok> and in quite a different setup, even
20:50:49 <ehird> i wish i could have my own place and go to uni
20:50:52 <ehird> you, you, adults, you.
20:51:06 <oklofok> people have gone to uni at your age
20:51:15 <ehird> i'm not super-smart though.
20:51:26 <ehird> also kinda awkward you know?
20:51:29 <oklofok> you would do fine at our uni
20:51:37 <ehird> oklofok: no i wouldn't, i can't speak finnish.
20:51:53 <oklofok> well all our advanced courses are in english
20:52:08 <ehird> but those are the ones I'd fail at :P
20:52:10 <oklofok> but i guess you'd need to get your bachelor's somewhere else
20:52:39 <oklofok> with a certain amount of strategy, i doubt it
20:52:55 <ehird> anyway it'd still be awkward
20:53:04 <ehird> since i look and sound younger than 14
20:53:28 <ehird> also while i may be decently acceptable at cs i kinda suck at everything else sooo
20:54:02 -!- anm_ub has joined.
20:54:14 <ehird> A— never mind, undefined behaviour.
20:54:46 <anm_ub> not on my bouncer atm (computer turned off due to dead cpu fan, getting a replacement tomorrow)
20:54:47 <oklofok> there are many simple courses whose content you mostly know already
20:54:50 <anm_ub> http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/
20:55:12 <ehird> oklofok: are you just assuming :D
20:55:19 <ehird> anm_ub: seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:55:47 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:55:55 <ehird> anm_ub: anyway it kind of needs to suck less
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20:56:21 <anm_ub> ehird, however, I heard about some library using something similar with pro equipment, with good results
20:56:40 <anm_ub> someone I know mentioned it, haven't managed to find a link, that person is now hunting for a link
20:57:06 <anm_ub> ehird, and yes, as the page says: written during a few late nights
20:57:28 <ehird> a good version would simulate every single quark making up the record
20:57:30 <anm_ub> so I'm pretty sure that even with consumer grade scanner you could manage better if you spent some time on it
20:57:32 <oklofok> <ehird> oklofok: are you just assuming :D <<< no, but i know that there's an "advanced" course called xhtml.
20:57:37 <ehird> and actually play the record
20:57:40 <ehird> then measure the vibrations
20:57:46 <oklofok> well actually "but" was kinda weird there
20:57:46 <ehird> oklofok: i'll pass on that one :P
20:58:15 <oklofok> ehird: i'm just saying you'd ace it. then again, so does everyone else
20:58:16 <anm_ub> ehird, nah, you need to actually know the correct encoding scheme. see the note added to the bottom of the linked page
20:58:25 <anm_ub> turned out he wasn't exactly right about the encoding
20:58:57 <ehird> oklofok: consider that my opinion is that anything easier than MIT isn't worth bothering with
20:59:06 <ehird> and consider whether i'd bother with that uni :D
20:59:38 <oklofok> ehird: the other course you might own is the one about compilation, unfortunately that's one of the few that are in finnish
21:00:28 <oklofok> i have no idea how hard MIT is compared to ours, although yes, it's probably a lot harder.
21:00:28 <anm_ub> oklofok, about how to compile or how to write a compiler?
21:00:56 <anm_ub> as in, is it "this is where you press compile in MSVC" or "lets write a simple compiler"?
21:01:05 <ehird> oklofok: [[the difficulty of MIT coursework has been characterized as "drinking from a fire hose"]]
21:01:09 <oklofok> anm_ub: what's the difference?
21:01:21 <anm_ub> oklofok, wasn't that clear from the line with "as in"?
21:01:30 <ehird> ([[the failure rate and freshmen retention rate at MIT are similar to other large research universities]] but then their admission rate is 11% so)
21:01:52 <anm_ub> btw my lag seems quite a bit worse when using wlan, compared to ethernet
21:01:59 <oklofok> anm_ub: oh lol, about how to write a compiler :P
21:02:08 <ehird> anm_ub: get a draft n router
21:02:20 <ehird> there's some linksyses that do that
21:02:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well, to even be able to connect at all with the wireless driver for intel cards in linux I currently need to pass disable_11n module parameter
21:02:52 <ehird> anm_ub: it's 110MB/s wireless
21:02:58 <ehird> with TCP/IP overhead
21:03:04 <ehird> (note: MB means "megabit")
21:03:07 <anm_ub> ehird, the bandwidth isn't the issue.... the latency is
21:03:13 <ehird> anm_ub: well, shrug
21:03:16 <anm_ub> according to traceroute
21:03:37 <ehird> anm_ub: what other issues are there with the hardware? i will be buying a thinkpad tomorrow or so probably
21:03:51 <anm_ub> ehird, lag to router over ethernet: 3-4 ms. Over wlan: 20-30 ms
21:03:57 <oklofok> ehird: our cs dep doesn't have that much coursework, usually you read a book or attend lectures
21:04:10 <oklofok> which i find a good thing in cs
21:04:10 <ehird> oklofok: so no tests? :D
21:04:34 <anm_ub> ehird, not much, the radio killswitch sometimes confuses linux... though suspend/wake up is enough to fix that
21:04:49 <anm_ub> fingerprint reader not supported
21:05:04 <ehird> [[Undergraduates are required to complete an extensive core curriculum called the General Institute Requirements (GIRs). The science requirement, generally completed during freshman year as prerequisites for classes in science and engineering majors, comprises two
21:05:07 <ehird> semesters of physics classes covering classical mechanics and electricity and magnetism, two semesters of math covering single variable calculus and multivariable calculus, one semester of chemistry, and one semester of biology. Undergraduates are required to take a laboratory class in their major, eight Humanities, Arts, and Social
21:05:08 <ehird> Sciences (HASS) classes (at least three in a concentration and another four unrelated subjects), and non-varsity athletes must also take four physical education classes.]]
21:05:12 <ehird> found when reading the mit article
21:05:15 <anm_ub> ehird, if you use bios password you need to enter it when resuming from disk, not needed for resume from disk under windows it seems
21:05:22 <ehird> that'd be fun, it'd be like suicide
21:05:31 <anm_ub> ehird, the wireless is the only major issue however
21:05:39 <ehird> anm_ub: what about the intel graphics
21:05:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well yes. that has some issues as I mentioned before
21:05:56 <anm_ub> but nothing mission critical for me
21:05:57 <ehird> anm_ub: i'm talking mainly performance
21:06:01 <ehird> would be nice to do some gaming
21:06:07 <ehird> and according to xkcd fullscreen flash is too laggy with intel
21:06:12 <oklofok> ehird: what sounded like suicide in that?
21:06:19 <anm_ub> ehird, haven't tried flash
21:06:20 <ehird> sounds like a pretty bad driver situation
21:06:25 <ehird> oklofok: the fact where i suck at like all of it
21:06:33 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, card reader works perfectly
21:06:44 <ehird> oklofok: you don't even get to do CS until you complete it xD
21:06:48 <anm_ub> it supports a few more
21:06:49 <oklofok> well that sounds like suicide to me, in that you need to take uninteresting subjects
21:07:11 <ehird> eh i don't care about that, more the "wow i would fail spectacularly" aspect
21:07:30 <ehird> anm_ub: oh! do you have a LED screen
21:07:33 <ehird> or is it a normal tft
21:07:39 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway try ati graphics if you prefer, but see thinkwiki about power usage, suspend, and about everything else iirc
21:07:40 <oklofok> but i don't think it'd actually be that *hard* taking introductory courses in many subjects instead of a progression in one subject
21:07:49 <ehird> anm_ub: no ati graphics on the x-series ultraportables
21:07:52 <anm_ub> ehird, TFT I think, how would I see the difference
21:08:08 <ehird> anm_ub: LEDs are still TFTs :P
21:08:11 <ehird> anm_ub: i'll check the r500 specs
21:08:23 <anm_ub> ehird, it has backlight, I can change it using Fn-Home/End
21:08:32 <anm_ub> all the function keys seems to work under ubuntu
21:08:34 <ehird> every screen has a backlight apart from OLED.
21:08:40 <oklofok> ehird: well, i guess it's possible you'd fail, i don't know how well you actually study, i just know how well you do stuff you already know, which is well enough in the subject of ...popular nerdery
21:08:43 <anm_ub> but what is the diff then
21:08:44 <ehird> anm_ub: okay it's CCFL not LED
21:08:55 <anm_ub> ehird, how would I know the damn diff
21:08:56 <ehird> anm_ub: LED has much better colours, uses less battery, is brighter, ...
21:09:02 <ehird> i'm checking the spec sheet
21:09:05 <anm_ub> ehird, well I don't have anything to compare to
21:09:11 <anm_ub> ehird, it works for me though
21:09:59 <anm_ub> ehird, there were some minor issues in ubuntu that were relatively trivial to fix
21:10:05 <ehird> anm_ub: ok the display in the x200 i'm getting is 200-nits brightness like yours and CCFL
21:10:08 <ehird> so i have a question
21:10:16 <ehird> is there any direct sunlight where you are atm
21:10:37 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, a florescent lamp only. Dark outside, streetlights on
21:10:56 <ehird> will there likely be some tomorrow? I need the ability to use the laptop outside
21:11:05 <ehird> so it'd be really appreciated if you could check :)
21:11:11 <anm_ub> ehird, forcast is TSRA
21:11:22 <ehird> Total Shit Rain Abomination
21:11:30 <anm_ub> ehird, METAR for ThunderStorm Rain
21:11:33 <ehird> raindrops of feces, impressive
21:11:55 <ehird> anm_ub: well, does it look bright enough to use outside? I've read two reviews of the X200 that say the backlight isn't bright enough...
21:12:11 <anm_ub> ehird, learn METAR. It gives you quite a few geek points (not sure in what category though!)
21:12:30 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, you said yours was a different screen
21:12:38 <ehird> it's a different size and dpi
21:12:41 <ehird> but same backlight and same nits
21:12:47 <anm_ub> ehird, as for outside, I have only tried it on a veranda with roof
21:12:53 <anm_ub> was bright enough there
21:12:57 <anm_ub> not sure about direct sun light
21:13:07 <ehird> the key thing is if the sunlight is actually shining on a display
21:13:16 <anm_ub> ehird, I usually use it on half brightness when on battery
21:13:33 <ehird> the one i'm getting has a 9 hour battery life with reasonable brightness
21:13:38 <ehird> so i'm fine turning it to 100% for outside use
21:13:56 <anm_ub> ehird, I manage about 4.5 hours (tested today during thunderstorms)
21:14:04 <anm_ub> shut it off when it was at 10% load
21:14:05 <ehird> and with the same processor/ram as yours
21:14:10 <anm_ub> oh and started on 70% charge
21:14:39 <anm_ub> for longest battery life you should set the thinkpad to start charging only at 40% charged battery or lower
21:14:59 <anm_ub> I do it in /etc/rc.local
21:15:06 <ehird> i plan to be recharging it every day after a full amount of use, soo :P
21:15:13 <ehird> anm_ub: but anyway, direct sunlight with a glossy display, it blots out everything else; matte display with not-so-good backlight, it gets washed out and partially blots things out; matte display with a good backlight, nothing changes
21:15:14 <anm_ub> (setting kept during suspend to ram, but not during suspend to disk/shutdown)
21:15:24 <ehird> it's matte, so I guess the reviews are pointing to #2
21:16:06 <anm_ub> ehird, well you should not recharge to 100% or let it get less than 30-40%
21:16:15 <ehird> ubuntu prolly does that by default.
21:16:25 <ehird> how easy is it to change
21:16:32 <anm_ub> ehird, two lines in /etc/rc.local
21:16:38 <anm_ub> simple enough for you?
21:16:49 <anm_ub> echo 70 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/stop_charge_thresh
21:16:50 <anm_ub> echo 40 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/start_charge_thresh
21:17:00 <anm_ub> make sure the module tp_smapi is loaded
21:17:28 <anm_ub> ehird, harddisk protection thingy: will be supported when ubuntu changes to a newer kernel
21:17:58 <ehird> anm_ub: who cares? SSD.
21:18:11 <ehird> although it'd be fun to use it for things
21:18:14 <ehird> snice it's a regular accelerometer
21:18:47 <anm_ub> ehird, an odd hardware issue I have though is that when I connect some usb devices the computer produces a whine, not dissimilar to the CRT whine
21:19:05 <anm_ub> it applies to my mouse and my printer, but not some usb memory sticks
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21:19:10 <ehird> doesn't matter to me. well, i might use a usb headset.
21:19:19 <ehird> but i don't plan to carry around usb crap
21:19:26 <ehird> uber-happy that the x200 has 3g internet built in :)
21:19:34 <anm_ub> ehird, except sometimes it is the reverse. as in it whines without the mouse connected
21:19:42 <anm_ub> after a reboot it reverted back though
21:20:10 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, the main issue is the wlan. And possibly graphics for you
21:20:43 <anm_ub> ehird, another minor detail that had issues on ubuntu was configuring the touchpad. Needed to tell hal to enable shmconfig for X
21:20:58 <anm_ub> but not advanced config
21:21:06 <anm_ub> like that provided by gsynaptics
21:21:12 <anm_ub> or whatever the app is called
21:21:45 -!- Tritonio has left (?).
21:22:05 <anm_ub> ehird, third minor issue: ubuntu has no clue about the udev events generated when you pull the eject ultrabay slider thingy
21:22:14 <anm_ub> thinkwiki has a script for it though
21:22:37 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway only thing annoying me atm is the whine and the wlan
21:22:47 <anm_ub> and the graphics slightly
21:22:52 <anm_ub> but that isn't a major issue to me
21:23:16 <anm_ub> ehird, how often will you use the cd?
21:23:59 <anm_ub> I was ripping a cd today, and it made the whole laptop vibrate. would be quite effective as a vibrator I guess XD
21:25:56 <anm_ub> ehird, one minor issue I just noticed: trackpoint needs cleaning
21:26:08 <anm_ub> it is kind of uneven in texture for better grip
21:26:33 <anm_ub> but dirt accumulate there, you just need a small stiff brush it seems
21:28:17 <anm_ub> ehird, over all, it could have been much worse when it comes to hardware
21:28:32 <anm_ub> considering what I heard from people with non-thinkpads
21:29:17 <anm_ub> ehird, oh another odd thing. You know those intel inside stickers?
21:29:27 <anm_ub> well it says "Intel Centrino 2 inside" on it
21:29:33 <anm_ub> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
21:29:39 <anm_ub> is what /proc/cpuinfo says
21:29:48 <anm_ub> so I guess they managed to put on the wrong sticker
21:29:55 <anm_ub> also that isn't "brb" any longer ehird
21:30:00 <anm_ub> it is "bbiab" and soon "bbl"
21:31:09 <anm_ub> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_hotswap_UltraBay_devices#Using_libata-acpi_and_udev
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21:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:44:24 <Sgeo> GNOME spazzed out on me for no discernable reason
21:45:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:49:17 <anm_ub> <-- AnMaster, but not on normal bouncer due to broken cpu fan in that computer
21:49:28 <anm_ub> and well, to lazy to dig out nickserv password and such
21:49:39 <anm_ub> since I will get a new cpu fan tomorrow
21:54:20 <Sgeo> anm_ub, the menu thing and taskbar thing disappeared, some strange windows appeared
21:54:26 <Sgeo> When everything recovered, XChat was dead
21:54:44 <Sgeo> And some stuff in the system tray equivelent is gone
21:54:46 <anm_ub> Sgeo, what sort of strange window?
21:55:10 <Sgeo> Small windows, apparently representing stuff that was in the tray
21:55:30 <anm_ub> Sgeo, maybe you managed to undock part of the tray?
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22:14:56 <ehird> [21:29] anm_ub: well it says "Intel Centrino 2 inside" on it
22:15:00 <ehird> centrino 2 is core 2.
22:15:21 <ehird> [21:20] anm_ub: ehird, another minor detail that had issues on ubuntu was configuring the touchpad. Needed to tell hal to enable shmconfig for X
22:15:21 <ehird> no touchpad on the x200
22:15:25 <ehird> [21:23] anm_ub: ehird, how often will you use the cd?
22:17:05 <ehird> anyway is the wlan issue just latency?
22:17:14 <ehird> i can wait for better intel graphics drivers
22:17:29 <anm_ub> ehird, connecting to WPA/WPA2 networks takes ages sometimes
22:17:51 <anm_ub> more often than not ubuntu times out a few times before I manage to connect
22:17:57 <anm_ub> so minutes most of the time
22:18:11 <anm_ub> ehird, known and reported bug
22:18:16 <anm_ub> lots of variants of it reported
22:18:18 <ehird> anyway, i like how you pointed out things about the touchpad and cd as main things when I won't have either :P
22:18:25 <anm_ub> not sure if mine exact version
22:18:33 <anm_ub> ehird, not main things, trivial things
22:18:41 <ehird> as for the trackpoint, I have a question - is it the pencil-eraser rough kind of thing, or the rubber-with-bobbles?
22:18:55 <anm_ub> ehird, oh for the trackpoint, "tap trackpoint to click" doesn't work for me
22:19:05 <anm_ub> seems to be a "too old kernel in ubuntu" issue again
22:19:59 <ehird> oh, darn, apparently the x200 has an option for a WXGA+ LED but it's not listed due to being out of stock
22:20:15 <ehird> 12.1" 1440x900 matte LED display would be a godsend
22:20:42 <anm_ub> ehird, is it synaptics or ALPS that provided the trackpoint
22:20:52 <anm_ub> the tap to click seems to not yet work on ALPS
22:20:56 <ehird> ThinkPads INVENTED the trackpoint.
22:20:59 <anm_ub> which is what my thinkpad has
22:21:09 <anm_ub> ehird, yes, but it is still ALPS on this
22:21:15 <ehird> what about the texture
22:21:16 <anm_ub> ALPS dual point or something
22:21:24 <anm_ub> so ALPS touchpad and ALPS trackpoint
22:21:28 <anm_ub> handled by synaptics driver
22:22:27 <ehird> [[1.) The high res screen is on backorder an in short supply right now. They should be getting more, but not sure when. The high res screen is only offered on the X200s, not the X200.]]
22:22:39 <ehird> the x200s only has like a 1.8ghz low voltage processor so it's not an option
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22:22:49 <ehird> so i don't have to delay squirming
22:22:56 <ehird> ...rather, I dont' have to delay while squirming
22:24:10 <oerjan> delaying squirming can be painful. i would not recommend it.
22:24:12 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway do you have expresscard?
22:24:23 <ehird> i'll check whether it has one
22:24:28 <anm_ub> because the wlan issue is not yet fixed even in 2.6.31
22:24:34 <anm_ub> so it may take a while
22:24:46 <ehird> anm_ub: yes, there is an expresscard.
22:24:54 <ehird> also, are you really sure everyone has this problem?
22:24:57 <anm_ub> getting a separate wlan card might be your best option
22:25:03 <anm_ub> ehird, well, lots of users have it
22:25:12 <ehird> anm_ub: I'm not sacrificing the portability of this machine at all
22:25:13 <anm_ub> and since most networks are open or WEP...
22:25:26 <anm_ub> ehird, it isn't unportable using such a card?
22:25:37 <ehird> anm_ub: dude, with a nine-hour batter it weighs 1.6kg
22:25:47 <anm_ub> yes that is very light
22:25:56 <ehird> with a 3 hour batery, 1.34kg
22:26:14 <ehird> anm_ub: so adding _anything_ makes it a lot less portable
22:26:28 <ehird> (also, it has a proper core 2 cpu, yet is cool enough to fit on a lap)
22:26:33 <ehird> truly a marvel of modern technology!
22:26:35 <anm_ub> ehird, 3 kg is still portable. and a express card is quite light
22:26:45 <ehird> if 3kg was ok, I wouldn't be getting an x200
22:26:56 <ehird> i'm a little scrawny weakling, for one
22:27:02 <ehird> for another, we probably have different ideas of portable
22:27:21 <anm_ub> ehird, able to use at uni, will use backpack to transport on bus?
22:27:31 <anm_ub> that is, bus with wheels, not system bus
22:27:45 <ehird> can carry with one hand effortlessly.
22:27:55 <ehird> I guess I should say "ultraportable"
22:28:03 <ehird> I mean, anything under like 5kg is "portable" in your sense
22:28:25 <anm_ub> ehird, can carry with one hand holding your hand around the lower edge with the laptop between yourself and your arm?
22:28:51 <ehird> With the X200, I believe you can carry it just holding on to the little bulging bit of the 9-cell battery.
22:29:03 <ehird> I mean, let's put it this way
22:29:07 <anm_ub> ehird, sounds dangerous
22:29:13 <ehird> With the 4-cell (= 3hr) battery, it weighs less than the MacBook Air.
22:29:25 <ehird> 0.02kg less, admittedly, but still less.
22:30:02 <ehird> (And it packs the same pixels in just a 1.2" smaller display, DOESN'T have soldered RAM, has a replaceable battery, has a 2.4GHz/2.5GHz CPU...)
22:30:06 <anm_ub> ehird, 0.02 kg might be what a pc-express wlan card weighs
22:30:09 <ehird> although it loses on thinkness
22:30:17 <ehird> anm_ub: I wouldn't carry it with just a 3 hour battery
22:30:40 <ehird> anm_ub: Anyway, I don't need WPA.
22:30:46 <ehird> I can just make my network WEP, no big shakes.
22:30:57 <anm_ub> ehird, well haven't tried WEP, some said it helped
22:31:05 <ehird> i wonder whether I should do whole disk encryption
22:31:11 <anm_ub> btw it seems to be worse after a suspend to disk or ram
22:31:17 <ehird> setting a password + using linux will defeat anyone stupid enough to steal a laptop
22:31:18 <anm_ub> the wlan issues I mean
22:31:38 <ehird> i can make it unprotected too :P
22:31:52 <ehird> how much battery does yours get?
22:31:56 <anm_ub> ehird, well I meant, some said that was an issue too
22:32:26 <anm_ub> ehird, as I said above. ~4.5 hours on a 75% -> 15% uncharge
22:32:32 <ehird> that's with the 9-cell battery isn't it
22:32:43 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, opted for battery not sticking out
22:33:04 <anm_ub> ehird, and decided to get extra battery in ultrabay if I needed it
22:33:16 <ehird> ultrabay costs £100 :(
22:33:45 <ehird> the ultrabay itself
22:33:58 <anm_ub> it is where you place the cd drive
22:34:11 <ehird> i thought you meant
22:34:15 <ehird> which costs £100 from lenovo
22:34:31 <ehird> incidentally, piccy of x200: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg (the right one), closed: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34765.jpg (the top one)
22:34:37 <ehird> i love how it looks when closed
22:34:56 <ehird> (http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/thinkpad_x200_02.jpg sticky outy 9-cell battery-y)
22:35:04 * anm_ub waits for browser to load
22:35:15 <anm_ub> takes a bit while installing an OS in vmware at the same time
22:35:24 <anm_ub> and three rows of saved tabs to load
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22:35:56 <anm_ub> <ehird> i love how it looks when closed <-- ?
22:36:06 <ehird> [22:34] ehird: incidentally, piccy of x200: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg (the right one), closed: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34765.jpg (the top one)
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22:36:37 <ehird> it looks like... a slab
22:36:44 <anm_ub> ehird, on the open one, what is the thing above the screen
22:37:04 <ehird> has the camera and microphone and I suppose those are the speakers
22:37:08 <ehird> either that or the speakers are under the keyboard
22:37:21 <anm_ub> ehird, I have the diagonal pattern thing above too
22:37:30 <anm_ub> speakers on side of keyboard
22:37:31 <ehird> then what was your question
22:37:37 <anm_ub> ehird, the camera thingy
22:37:49 <anm_ub> so had no clue what it was
22:38:04 <anm_ub> ehird, and well the diagonal thing could be spakers
22:38:07 <ehird> anm_ub: no chance of getting speakers on the side of the keyboard; it's the whole width and about 28cm wide
22:38:12 <anm_ub> since there is nothing on the side of the keyboard there
22:38:12 <ehird> also, yes, probably.
22:38:18 <anm_ub> ehird, built in speakers = crap
22:38:37 <ehird> I'll probably get a usb headset when I need it.
22:38:39 <anm_ub> ehird, really crap. Even a non-music lover can hear it
22:38:45 <ehird> yes, laptops tend to be
22:38:50 <ehird> fine for system sounds, though. :P
22:39:09 <anm_ub> ehird, about slab: it looks like a closed non-mac laptop. ;P
22:39:10 <ehird> anm_ub: btw, the thing in between the two red trackpoint buttons
22:39:15 <ehird> is it a scrollwheel or what?
22:39:28 <anm_ub> ehird, middle mouse button
22:39:45 <ehird> also, no it doesn't!
22:39:48 <ehird> most of them have a curve
22:40:00 <anm_ub> ehird, iirc windows drivers maps it to "scroll with trackpoint"
22:40:02 <ehird> this is just a rectangle slab of rubbery plastic
22:40:05 <ehird> ...well, with a bit of a bulge.
22:40:10 <anm_ub> saw something about it
22:40:20 <ehird> anm_ub: so no physical scrollwheel?
22:40:31 <ehird> up/down keys aren't fine-grained enough, make me dizzy :(
22:40:39 <anm_ub> ehird, I use the edge areas of the touchpad to scroll with
22:40:47 <anm_ub> and everything else: the trackpoint
22:40:50 <anm_ub> atm I have a mouse connected
22:40:51 <ehird> i'll just do that with my INVISIBLE TOUCHPAD
22:41:08 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway you might be able to map it to scroll with trackpoint
22:41:15 <ehird> seems a bit of a pain
22:41:16 <anm_ub> saw something on thinkwiki about it
22:41:36 <ehird> i'll get used to it
22:41:44 <anm_ub> so you need to figure out the right XML file to edit to tell ubuntu about it
22:41:50 <anm_ub> since it uses hal for X config
22:42:04 <ehird> i know it uses xml.
22:42:08 <anm_ub> ehird, oh and gconf uses xml too
22:42:16 <ehird> i don't care, they're serialisation formats
22:42:24 <anm_ub> ehird, you forgot a t there
22:42:34 <ehird> no, XML is a metaformat.
22:42:36 <anm_ub> (and added an "a" too much)
22:42:48 <anm_ub> ehird, sterilisation formats :P
22:42:52 <ehird> anyway, i'm explicitly trying to avoid plugging in a mouse etc because i don't want to discourage myself from taking advantage of its portability; I'm paying extra for it after all :P
22:43:23 <ehird> speaking of sterilisation, I wonder how they managed to cool a Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz without getting hot on your lap
22:43:38 <anm_ub> ehird, desktop it stands on gets luke warm for me
22:43:53 <ehird> well I'm going for the 2.5GHz
22:43:56 <ehird> but they're identical apart from max speed
22:44:04 <ehird> and I doubt I'll be supercomputing on my lap
22:44:17 <ehird> anm_ub: the X200's CPU idles at 31 C iirc
22:44:23 <anm_ub> ehird, this isn't idle
22:44:31 <anm_ub> mine idles at around 30-35 C too
22:44:38 <anm_ub> 30 for one core, 35 for the other
22:44:39 <ehird> it's a new fan design thingy
22:44:43 <ehird> that's also uber-quiet
22:44:46 <ehird> maybe yours has it too
22:44:50 <anm_ub> ehird, the fan is quite quiet
22:44:52 <ehird> anm_ub: 35 is high
22:45:06 <ehird> 31 is comfortable, I'd say; I doubt anything above that is
22:45:08 <anm_ub> ehird, well.. that isn't completely unloaded I guess
22:45:26 <ehird> reports on the X200 say that the fan is almost completely inaudible
22:45:33 <ehird> anm_ub: I'm saying laptop on purpose because the X200 CAN go on your lap
22:45:41 <anm_ub> <ehird> reports on the X200 say that the fan is almost completely inaudible <-- same here
22:45:46 <anm_ub> unless I put the ear against it
22:45:53 <anm_ub> or manually spin it up to full speed
22:45:55 <ehird> 28cm wide, 1.6kg, very cool
22:46:03 <anm_ub> it never hits more than half of full at even full load
22:46:10 <ehird> you'd have to try hard to make it not work on your lap
22:46:38 <ehird> justifying saying "laptop" wrt X200
22:46:58 <anm_ub> ehird, sterilisation ;P
22:47:20 <ehird> multiple reviews have pointed out that it runs very cool, so
22:47:29 <anm_ub> ehird, there is the radiation too
22:47:44 <anm_ub> ehird, btw gnome kind of sucks according to powertop
22:47:48 <ehird> Yes, the WiFi radiation will kill me if I don't put on my tinfoil hat.
22:47:53 <anm_ub> lots of wakeups from various gnome processes
22:48:26 <anm_ub> such as the gnome power manager
22:48:44 <ehird> care to clarify radiation?
22:48:55 <anm_ub> ehird, well, wifi mostly
22:49:03 <ehird> lol, you believe that crap?
22:49:26 <ehird> i assume you don't have a mobile phone either
22:49:33 <anm_ub> ehird, I prefer to err on the safe side
22:49:50 <ehird> anm_ub: I assume you believe in god then? Pascal's Wager.
22:50:08 <ehird> The fact is that there is NO scientific base for WiFi being any more dangerous than radiation we're bombarded with every day from various sources.
22:50:15 <ehird> And it is universally pedalled only by complete kooks.
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22:52:10 <ehird> So if you avoid "WiFi radiation", you're just an idiot.
22:54:01 <ehird> I live in the country, where there is no radiation whatsoever!
22:55:28 <ehird> http://www.quantzgame.com/ ;; game written in Gambit Scheme
22:55:51 <anm_ub> maybe portable Faraday cages around sensitive areas? Wait you could make something like a mesh out of tinfoil right?
22:56:15 <ehird> anm_ub: you're surely joking.
22:56:35 <anm_ub> should have been completely clear
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22:59:26 <ehird> anm_ub: anyway you don't seriously believe that crap do you
23:02:24 <anm_ub> ehird, I do know that computers send out more or less radiation. And even if it is no more than the background level it is still in *addition* to the already existing background level. If it is significant or not I have no idea about.
23:02:39 <anm_ub> "probably not" is what I think
23:02:41 <ehird> you make baby jesus cry.
23:02:49 <anm_ub> but I do prefer to err on the safe side
23:02:54 <ehird> did you know, by the way, that sound makes your brain melt?
23:02:57 <ehird> it adds sound to the background sound
23:02:59 <ehird> and some sounds are dangerous
23:03:07 <ehird> we must be careful
23:03:09 <ehird> and not play any music
23:03:23 <ehird> it might not make your brain melt, might just make you deaf
23:03:26 <ehird> i mean some sounds do that right
23:03:34 <GregorR> I was expecting www.qwantzgame.com to be some awesome Dinosaur-Comics-related game.
23:03:36 <ehird> and it is IN ADDITION to the already existing background level
23:03:42 <ehird> we must never listen to music
23:03:51 <ehird> GregorR: Nooo, it's just squatted?
23:04:20 <ehird> not even registered
23:04:25 <ehird> GregorR: so, uh, wut?
23:04:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well that is a complex matter, like it is for radiation. One aspect to consider is if interference cause the result to amplify or if they take each other out. For example
23:04:49 <GregorR> Yeah, but quantz was so close it made me read "qwantz" and type that instead, then realize my mistake but go "gee, maybe there's a qwantz game"
23:05:10 <ehird> GregorR: oh that ha
23:05:34 <ehird> anm_ub: your jokes cannot dispel the fact that avoiding radiation because some radiation is harmful is exactly as stupid as avoiding sound because some sound is harmful
23:05:38 <ehird> indeed, more silly
23:05:48 <ehird> while research has not been done on the subject "do regular amounts of sound make you deaf?",
23:05:53 <ehird> research HAS been done on wifi and similar
23:05:57 <ehird> and the conclusion: bunk
23:06:28 <anm_ub> ehird, yet there are those over-sensitive to electricity.
23:06:41 <ehird> you believe those loonies?
23:06:44 <ehird> you are fucking insane
23:06:50 <ehird> they're DELUSIONAL
23:06:54 <anm_ub> ehird, I know someone who is
23:06:59 <ehird> AHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
23:07:55 <anm_ub> ehird, iirc there is no conclusive proof either way for that
23:08:13 <ehird> there's no conclusive proof for gravity, or russell's teapot not existing
23:10:00 <ehird> and you make fun of religion.
23:10:46 <anm_ub> she took part in a scientific study of it a few years ago. where they carried in a box that either contained a powered on electric device (a resistor connected to a 12 V setup iirc, don't remember details), or an equal weight in it. And she managed to detect it 100% of the time iirc.
23:10:59 <anm_ub> she was told after the study was complete
23:12:02 <ehird> whatever you say anm_ub.
23:15:07 <anm_ub> ehird, well. I also remember that study showed that some of the people who claimed this sort of hypersensitivity was able to detect it a statistical significant percentage of the time. However quite a lot more claimed to have the issue than those who were able to "prove" they had it. So I guess there could be those who are delusional, and those who actually are hypersensitive
23:15:26 <ehird> you're assuming the study was scientifically valid
23:15:42 <ehird> you're assuming its results can be attributed to "electricity sensitivity" instead of a side-channel effect
23:16:10 <anm_ub> ehird, they did lots of attempts to avoid that, by not having the person bringing in the box know what was in it and so on
23:16:20 <anm_ub> and the "equal weight" thingy
23:16:25 <ehird> your source for this study is the delusional person
23:16:28 <ehird> somehow i don't trust them.
23:16:57 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, I read the paper it was published in.
23:17:07 <ehird> yes, but all the facts beyond that
23:17:19 <anm_ub> I don't have it around any more but let me try to remember the name of it
23:18:25 <ehird> Googling it seems that electrical sensitivity may have some scientific basis
23:18:33 <ehird> WiFi radiation as harmful has been debunked a million times.
23:18:50 <ehird> There is plenty much more powerful radiation around us that does nothing, and nobody has ever gotten ill from WiFi.
23:19:02 <anm_ub> however, I would still not use a laptop on my lap, even if idle temp is low, it can get loaded easily
23:19:27 <anm_ub> ehird, and don't remember the name of the journal it was published in, sorry
23:19:40 <ehird> wouldn't it be terrible if suddenly my lap got ridiculously hot without me noticing!
23:20:10 <anm_ub> ehird, well it is your sperms :P
23:20:26 <ehird> i assume you have never had a warm bath either
23:20:51 * anm_ub suddenly wants to sing that Monty Python(?) "every sperm is sacred..."
23:21:08 <anm_ub> ehird, I don't have a bathtub :/, only a shower
23:21:24 <ehird> my dad has a separate shower thing
23:21:31 <ehird> much cooler than a shower+bath i think
23:21:46 <anm_ub> ehird, there is a outdoors public bath thingy. tends to be very cold
23:21:53 <anm_ub> you know, swimming thing
23:22:05 <ehird> <finns> You mean the sauna?
23:22:14 <ehird> <finns> Yeah, I wish they were hotter.
23:22:44 <ehird> ahhhh I love acme(1)
23:22:55 <ehird> it uses pointer warping so well
23:23:19 <anm_ub> I wonder why virtualbox uses a different hinting style than everything else
23:23:34 <ehird> doesn't do subpixel
23:23:46 <ehird> so you get grayscale pixels
23:23:49 <anm_ub> ehird, hm I turned off subpixel, because I couldn't stand it
23:23:59 <ehird> with that high dpi?
23:24:00 <anm_ub> ehird, I use "greyscale best shape"
23:24:16 <ehird> wifi radiation, almost-invisible subpixel...
23:24:20 <ehird> you sure are crazy
23:24:43 <anm_ub> ehird, well, it wasn't too bad in itself. but it wasn't as crisp as I like it
23:24:56 <ehird> i assume you don't read bokos
23:25:01 <ehird> they don't have crisp text either
23:25:19 <anm_ub> it was a bit blurry anyway
23:25:22 <ehird> they have no hinting at all
23:25:30 <anm_ub> ehird, indeed. but they have sharp edges
23:25:34 <ehird> not at >120dpi, no
23:25:50 <anm_ub> ehird, um, not new ones indeed
23:26:04 <ehird> i was talking about displays and colour bleed
23:26:11 <anm_ub> ehird, I was talking about books
23:26:19 <ehird> at ~175dpi, it's impossible to distinguish two pixels without a magnifying glass
23:26:35 <ehird> so at ~120dpi, it's almost certainly very very hard to distinguish two subpixels unless you have really good eyes
23:26:43 <ehird> really really REALLY really really good eyes
23:27:07 <anm_ub> ehird, I didn't see the subpixels. but I did see that it was blurrier
23:27:28 <ehird> anm_ub: again, at such a high dpi it will look almost identical to books
23:27:30 <pikhq> There's been a local privelege escalation exploit in Linux since Linux 2.4.4.
23:27:37 <ehird> pikhq: old, vmsplice
23:27:44 <pikhq> ehird: To present.
23:27:51 <anm_ub> nah, vmsplice was different
23:27:53 <ehird> pikhq: what is it?
23:27:56 <pikhq> http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html
23:28:18 <ehird> only patched today
23:28:23 <pikhq> Mapping to NULL and jumping to it.
23:28:27 <ehird> ...I wonder if I have any ssh accounts lying around...
23:28:30 <pikhq> It executes in kernel space.
23:28:48 <ehird> I SHALL BRING INFINITE HAVOC
23:29:19 <anm_ub> so temp workaround is use ipv4 only=
23:29:34 <pikhq> It effects more protocols than IP6.
23:29:43 <anm_ub> PF_INET6 (with IPPROTO_SCTP) <-- I don't yet use SCTP either, planned but not yet
23:31:28 <pikhq> Amusingly, the mmap_min_addr (which was the previous source of a security flaw) feature can be used to prevent this.
23:32:20 <anm_ub> $ sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr
23:32:20 <anm_ub> vm.mmap_min_addr = 65536
23:33:02 <ehird> You know, every Linux shell account hoster is going to die a horrible death.
23:33:15 <pikhq> Erm. Older than 2.6.30.
23:33:40 <pikhq> Sweet, Gentoo is by default secure against it.
23:33:44 <anm_ub> pikhq, but ubuntu backported it
23:33:50 <pikhq> vm.mmap_min_addr = 4096
23:34:00 <pikhq> NO FIRST PAGE FOR YOU.
23:34:06 <anm_ub> pikhq, ubuntu still backported the mmap bit I think
23:34:46 <ehird> FUN FACT: NULL IS A LIE
23:36:10 <oklofok> i can never finish solitaire these days, i get tired of it's boringness halfway through
23:36:32 <oklofok> so now i currently don't have any interest in games
23:36:51 <ehird> oklofok: minesweeper
23:36:55 <oklofok> presently at the moment, that is
23:37:09 <oklofok> no i can't play minesweeper either
23:37:48 <anm_ub> ehird, not against a a good chess program set at hardest level
23:37:48 <oklofok> definitely not, i can't focus on it long enough to win against anyone
23:38:39 <ehird> just do what a chess program does
23:38:42 <ehird> you're allowed paper right?
23:38:52 <ehird> you are in my rules.
23:38:54 <oklofok> ehird: don't you suck at chess though?
23:39:05 <ehird> if i'm playing humanly
23:39:14 <ehird> but i could, if i wanted, play like a chess algo
23:39:45 <ehird> as in, 1000x worse than chess progs
23:39:55 <oklofok> anything resembling a decent player would be impossible to do that way
23:40:05 <ehird> most people aren't decent
23:40:44 <ehird> oklofok: anyway, with paper i could do like 100x worse
23:40:56 <ehird> but the fact is that the actual playing isn't algorithmically hard
23:40:59 <ehird> as opposed to, say, Go
23:41:06 <ehird> where you can't just memorise an algo
23:41:08 <oklofok> yes, so slow that that's a ridiculous thing to even hypothesize
23:41:17 <ehird> it's the purity i'm on about
23:41:21 <ehird> you like purity don't you?
23:41:30 <ehird> if there's a chess algorithm that kicks serious ass, it's not worth playing
23:41:40 <ehird> unless you just want to masturbate your mind
23:41:51 <ehird> with go/arimaa, you're actually actively doing something only you can currently do
23:42:00 <ehird> as opposed to a human being able to consider 1000x more than you and come out on top
23:42:05 <ehird> so it's a purer game, intellectually
23:42:07 <ehird> and therefore more worth playing
23:44:37 <oklofok> so anyway i was thinking i'd start my uni year by taking a random course on the first exam day, and fiving it, but that's no longer possible :|
23:45:02 <oklofok> because i'm switching to math, and those bastards have tons of mandatory homework on every course
23:45:12 <ehird> oklofok: i just invented the best game ever
23:45:29 <ehird> but you are! it's mathematically pure and also useless
23:45:42 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_and_Boxes, with continuous space instead of discrete dot-space, and infinite-dimensional.
23:45:59 <ehird> props to anyone who can make that into something even vaguely mathematically formulated
23:46:03 <oklofok> how about a general topological space
23:46:22 <ehird> sounds confusing and fun
23:47:04 <ehird> oklofok: unfortunately i think dots and boxes is inherently easy for an ai
23:48:09 <ehird> oklofok: well i mean the perfect strategy is trivial
23:48:18 <ehird> i don't think making space continuous changes it
23:48:23 <ehird> and infinite-dimensional is prolly generalisable
23:48:26 <oklofok> what's the perfect strategy?
23:48:43 <anm_ub> ehird, "the winner ends when no more lines can be placed" + infinite gird?
23:48:51 <ehird> anm_ub: did i say infinite grid
23:49:00 <ehird> i said infinite dimensional
23:49:04 <ehird> like 2D, 3D, infinityD
23:49:09 <ehird> and continuous space
23:49:13 <ehird> = (real,real) not (int,int)
23:49:21 <anm_ub> effect is the same then right
23:49:38 <anm_ub> you can place it at any place if it is (real,real)?
23:50:22 <oklofok> yes, every game lasts for an uncountable amount of turns
23:50:34 <oklofok> basically you determine your strategy, and the limit is taken,
23:50:46 <oklofok> and then you calculate the areas
23:51:26 <oklofok> also, ehird, no, it doesn't say anything about a perfect strategy
23:51:38 <ehird> oklofok: i like how you extrapolated what i said :D
23:51:55 <ehird> only squares are ok though
23:51:58 <ehird> but you can do fractals!
23:52:01 <ehird> boxes in boxes in boxes
23:52:10 <ehird> of course not "squares"
23:52:19 <ehird> infinityD hypercubes
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23:57:54 <anm_ub> ehird, so the games end when you can't place anything else
23:57:58 <anm_ub> seems it will never end then
23:58:10 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: yes, every game lasts for an uncountable amount of turns
23:58:11 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: basically you determine your strategy, and the limit is taken,
23:58:11 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: and then you calculate the areas
23:59:22 <ehird> oklofok: so is a move a mathematical expression or something