00:00:34 well i don't know, but i think you need a metric space, just a topological space isn't enough 00:02:10 also i need to read about adders now 00:02:46 oklofok: the snakes? 00:03:52 no about you know mister ripple-carry and mister carry-look-ahead, and then three others i did *not* learn about in preschool 00:03:58 or maybe highschool 00:04:12 oklofok: XD 00:04:14 *xD 00:04:46 YEAH THAT'S WHY EIGHT PLUS B B 00:05:35 oklofok, snakes? 00:05:38 I never heard of them 00:05:56 I think they used some other cute thingy 00:05:57 forgot what 00:06:11 eh? 00:06:24 `define adder 00:06:25 * a person who adds numbers \ * small terrestrial viper common in northern Eurasia \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 00:06:37 oklofok: i think he's asking you what an adder snake is. 00:06:52 anm_ub: i was talking about these things that take bits in, and sum them. 00:06:57 ehird, no I'm saying they weren't used for teaching math in school 00:07:03 lol. 00:07:03 maybe I misunderstood oklofok 00:07:48 mostly about ways to make the carry bottleneck shorter 00:08:00 small terrestrial viper which likes to use log tables for sex 00:08:17 oerjan, natural log? 00:08:22 oerjan: hawt 00:08:23 wooden 00:08:33 oerjan, >_< 00:08:45 ... 00:08:47 anm_ub: Whoooooooosh. 00:09:02 anm_ub: no this is not about algorithms, this is about wires. 00:09:05 and you know gates 00:09:09 * oerjan assumes anm_ub hasn't heard the original joke. which seems safe since he doesn't know about adders. 00:09:11 oh darn, I thought I was making the math joke here 00:09:12 -_- 00:09:19 BILL gates?!?!?! 00:09:39 oerjan, I haven't heard the original joke no 00:09:52 yeah, anm_ub has never heard of these weird joke creatures, "vipers" 00:09:55 err 00:09:56 "adders" 00:09:58 not vipers 00:10:10 i can't believe he doesn't :D 00:10:39 ehird, vipers I know of. It's the popular name for F-16 Fight Falcon. The pilots often call it the viper. Oh and it's a type of snake too. 00:10:40 ;P 00:10:49 but you don't know what an adder is? 00:10:50 seriously? 00:11:00 i knew what an adder was when i was 3 ffs 00:11:21 oh it's a huggorm says wikipedia 00:11:27 of course I know what a huggorm is 00:11:33 >_< 00:11:36 quite a different name in Swedish 00:11:44 oerjan, translate for me 00:11:45 too lazy 00:11:56 Hug G ORM → Hug Gangsta Object Relational Mapper 00:12:05 Those gangsta object-relational mappers just need some love. 00:12:07 ehird, more like "bite-snake" 00:12:09 biting worm? :D 00:12:10 well 00:12:16 oerjan, orm is snake 00:12:18 in Swedish 00:12:23 not in Norwegian 00:12:25 I know that 00:12:38 oerjan, don't you call them slang or something 00:12:38 hugg also means "chop" with an axe 00:12:42 which is Swedish for tube 00:12:46 oerjan, yes it does 00:12:47 slange yes 00:12:54 oerjan, tube :P 00:13:04 although it's still huggorm in norwegian 00:13:08 heh 00:13:21 well 00:13:22 midgardsormen 00:13:42 hugg == bite (fast, kind of head quickly moving forward and biting) 00:13:55 the variant "hugg" does imply a certain suddenness 00:13:58 if you see what I mean 00:14:11 unlike "bitorm" would 00:16:06 huggorm is the only poisonous snake in norway 00:16:19 and only a bit(e) 00:17:36 same in Sweden 00:17:45 i don't know what an adder is, except that it's some kinda snake. 00:17:59 i probably don't know what that snake is in finnish either, except that it's some kinda snake 00:18:02 oklofok, adder == huggorm 00:18:03 ah wp says it's the world's most widespread snake species 00:18:07 (norw. wp) 00:18:11 anm_ub: i know. 00:18:28 huggorm, on the other hand, i've never even heard about 00:18:48 well 00:18:51 *-about 00:18:55 oklofok, well, it is same as adder 00:18:59 did that help? 00:19:49 "In Finland as "kyykäärme" or simply "kyy."" 00:19:56 oklofok: say "floating floaters that float" in finnish 00:21:27 oh right viper was kyy, i actually have slightly more information about that than any other snake in the world 00:21:37 mainly that it's the only venomous snake in finland 00:21:58 ehird: kelluvat kellujat jotka kelluvat 00:22:10 viper != adder? 00:22:14 oklofok: :D 00:22:22 or? 00:22:28 oh wait 00:22:30 oklofok: does finnish have an analogue of buffalo buffalo etc? 00:22:31 eh 00:22:33 i meant adder 00:22:36 and if so, can it be made into one word? 00:22:39 adder is a subspecies of viper 00:22:40 right 00:22:42 ehird, ^ 00:22:56 err 00:22:58 anm_ub: i can't see the difference between those two words, they just mean snake to me 00:23:00 oklofok, I meant 00:23:05 bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler 00:23:10 oklofok, adder is a type of viper 00:23:21 and viper is a type of snake 00:23:32 anm_ub: yes, snake is a type snake, which is a type of snake. 00:23:36 *type of 00:24:15 i'm currently so uninterested in biology, that i can't learn that even temporarily. 00:24:25 (alas bøfle isn't really a verb, but it could have been) 00:24:45 biology is like YOUR MOM 00:26:33 -!- anm_ub has quit ("night"). 00:26:42 wow! acme can edit infinitely large files 00:26:43 <3 00:26:53 oerjan: that would be more interesting with semantics, you know 00:27:06 i mean semantics for the part that has it 00:27:34 squee i can't wait for my laptoppy. 00:27:45 why did i ever get a desktop. 00:29:35 because you had a desk 00:29:50 oklofok: i still have one! 00:30:06 oklofok: bøfler = buffalos 00:30:12 plural noun 00:30:32 but it also looks like it could be a verb, present tense 00:31:17 and if it had been, it would have worked like in english 00:33:28 argh acme is just too damn elegant 00:33:48 elegant eloquent elephant 00:34:00 it's not an elephant! 00:34:03 weird how you'd pluralize it with an s even though you're referencing something that depends on it not pluralizing like that 00:34:47 well that was to point out that the norwegian word is only plural 00:36:59 OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 00:37:36 YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH 00:37:48 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;D 00:38:12 yeah 00:38:33 i knew it! finns are really aliens with multiple eyes on stalks! 00:39:32 each with their own tiny blinking brain, synchronizing is a bitch. 00:40:07 :D 00:40:20 but it makes you natural experts on concurrent programming 00:40:20 i wouldn't be surprised to discover that oklofok is an AI 00:41:07 i am the revolution 00:41:45 evilution 00:42:07 i wish there was a ranking of universities by how hard the courses are. 00:42:36 pretty sure ivy league + MIT would constitute a good portion of the top 00:42:59 well + like oxford and cambridge and shit 00:44:02 i'm less sure than you 00:44:18 why? 00:44:51 why would they be on top? 00:45:35 there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit 00:45:58 oklofok: because the ivy league is the canonical "really good school list" 00:46:04 somewhere close to pyongyang, perhaps 00:46:07 and MIT is fairly unanimously considered uber hard 00:46:21 oxford and cambridge are also very well renowned /shrug 00:46:50 ehird: i just don't see why really good would imply hard. well, actually i guess i just don't think hard implies good. 00:47:01 which is pretty much what oerjan said, i guess. 00:47:15 er 00:47:20 they don't rank it based on how many people pass, obviously 00:47:46 did i say they do 00:50:10 [00:45] oerjan: there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit 00:50:12 you referred to that line 00:52:34 yes 00:53:29 1. such a university would be crappy 2. i'm not saying being hard to pass makes a university bad, i'm just saying i don't see why hard should imply good 00:54:23 ah, true 00:54:29 I was thinking you meant "i don't see why good implies hard" 00:54:35 whereas I expect there's a pretty good correlation in that direction 00:54:59 yes, me too. 00:55:31 well, more like good -> hard enough, which in a university is pretty damn hard in my opinion 00:55:57 oklofok: otoh, I doubt that there are many bad unis with really hard courses 00:56:13 because when starting a uni with broken thinking, I'd say the tendency is to make it too easy for the students 00:56:34 I don't think there are many if any crazy bastards running around running a terrible university where you have to solve 6 impossible things before breakfast 00:57:48 someone mentioned this math lecturer who gave unsolved problems as homework without a warning 00:58:00 i mean, among the other exercises 00:58:11 that's not hard, though 00:58:16 impossible != hard 00:58:27 you're not expected to complete it 00:58:30 therefore it's infinitely easy 00:58:39 well true, that wasn't a counter-example, just a side-note 00:59:34 we actually got a few unsolvable problems as homework too, on an analysis course (with a warning), that was kinda annoying, since at that point i couldn't stand not getting all of them done :\ 01:00:06 but i fought the urge to apply my solid inductions on it. 01:00:36 oklofok: but you coulda solved them! 01:00:53 also unsolvable or just unsolved 01:02:16 well right unsolved 01:02:18 open 01:02:52 one was just a tiny modification of the exercise before it 01:03:33 unsolvable problems aren't that rare, and usually don't have a warning, by which i mean human errors 01:04:51 Obviously, homework should have Knuth ratings. 01:05:50 that would be nice 01:06:09 Knuth: 18943758973489583945/3458934759834735782798378589475867325789235 01:08:29 that's one fucked up way to say trivial. 01:10:10 oklofok: how is it trivial 01:10:17 it's like 7 out of 2 01:11:55 huh 01:12:19 i must be misunderstanding something here 01:16:55 oklofok: ? 01:18:53 how is a knuth rating of about 5.48e-24 not trivial 01:19:10 it's rather close to 0, the easiest possible, unless i remember the scale wrong 01:20:21 i don't even know what knuth ratings are 01:20:34 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=knuth+rating&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 nuttin' 01:21:27 oh? then i guess i have no idea what you meant by that rational number 01:24:05 like an n/10 rating 01:24:11 except knuth is like sooo subtle 01:27:07 but it's such a ridiculously small number what scale could it possibly not be trivial on 01:29:13 oklofok: knuth's scale is superexponential. 01:29:30 argggh what's that term you use for when something is really bad in computer science :P 01:29:35 i'm sure you know what i mean! 01:29:42 oklofok: "really bad" 01:29:46 nono 01:29:50 O(slow) 01:29:55 nooooo 01:30:14 what then 01:30:52 hard to say, i just know there's like a canonical term for something being really bad. 01:31:03 superexponential is pretty close ;D 01:31:06 used with "case" 01:31:10 for instance 01:31:16 ...i think 01:31:18 worst? 01:31:27 eh no 01:31:45 intractable? uncomputable? 01:31:45 it's like fatally bad, superbad 01:31:56 no not like that 01:32:09 doesn't imply anything computational by itself 01:32:34 superamazinglybad 01:32:40 oklofok: NP? :P 01:32:51 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 01:33:37 yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad. 01:33:47 but, it's still not what i'm looking for! 01:33:57 [01:33] oklofok: yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad. 01:33:58 xD 01:35:14 anyway it's not just used in cs, maybe more in math, when describing like a very weird subcase 01:35:56 would be much easier if i had any idea what the term was 01:36:06 ...seriously? 01:36:08 NP is 100% CS 01:36:11 oh 01:36:12 you meant 01:36:14 the term 01:36:16 oklofok: almost surely? :P 01:36:39 almost surely? 01:36:48 yes! 01:41:58 * oerjan doesn't connect that with "really bad" :/ 01:42:27 :P 01:42:40 oerjan: this asteroid will almost surely destroy the earth 01:42:41 however 01:42:52 it is perfectly shaped to painfully anally rape us for minutes beforehand 01:43:10 sounds fractal 01:43:16 xD 01:44:42 * oklofok opens his dictionary on A 01:44:56 see you in about 3 months. 01:46:13 unsolvable? 01:46:36 undecidable? 01:46:59 oklofok: is it the OED? 01:47:01 you should use the OED 01:47:05 oklofok: also try WP, it probably has an article on it 01:47:13 and you can filter out everything not in a mathematics or CS category 01:47:28 oerjan: no. 01:47:53 much less cs or math than those 01:50:50 oklofok is just making this up to waste our time :P 01:51:17 i'm starting to think that myself 01:52:59 argheargij 01:53:10 ijh 01:53:12 no, that is not a word. 01:53:19 not in english, at any rate. 01:57:39 the only word i can come up with is "paradoxical", not that close in meaning, so may be close in sound. 01:57:52 hard to say, my brain is pretty fucked up :< 01:58:58 um................ 01:59:18 pa.... 02:00:00 not pathetic 02:00:40 darn it's in the back of my head 02:01:15 oklofok: pathological 02:01:21 that was it! 02:01:46 ! 02:01:47 thanks 02:01:50 xD 02:01:59 oklofok: some definition of "really bad" 02:02:25 well it's used pretty much synonymously, anyway, i did remember it had to do with death 02:02:29 prolly should've said that 02:03:17 but i kinda assumed it'd be on the page with lethal if it was close enough to be useful 02:03:43 lethargic lemurs leaping leftwards 02:05:02 actually that's sifakas, except the lethargic part 02:05:28 oklofok: i think i dismissed pathological as not being... mathy enough 02:06:35 i can assure you that "pathological case" is a perfectly cromulent mathematical term ;D 02:06:46 ;D 02:06:55 oerjan: i have a question 02:06:57 do you pun as much IRL 02:08:15 not recently 02:08:23 oerjan: :< 02:09:46 huh new topic 02:09:54 yes, i set that 02:10:01 props to anyone who gets the reference 02:10:21 yeah it's not very math, more of a hacker term, methinks. 02:10:37 i just didn't really know what i was looking for 02:11:55 well, not that i've discussed or read that much math in english. 02:20:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:46:58 -!- ehird has quit. 02:48:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:02:08 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 03:09:57 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:17:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:23:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:55:35 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:04:41 -!- Paul1 has joined. 04:04:59 -!- Paul1 has quit (Client Quit). 04:07:07 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 04:09:00 [about Minimal] jercos> Sgeo: add to the "joke languages list" and observe the hilarity? 04:37:52 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:39:37 `calc 1 quart in pints 04:39:39 1 US quart = 2 US pints 04:39:43 Yay. 04:40:01 `calc 1 liter in hogsheads 04:40:03 1 liter = 0.00419320718 hogsheads 04:40:23 A hogshead is an *oddly* small unit. 04:40:34 Especially for a unit that claims to be the size of the head of a hog. 04:41:08 `calc 30 miles per gallon in rods per hogshead 04:41:10 30 miles per gallon = 604 800 rods per hogshead 04:41:27 `calc 1 hogshead in liters 04:41:29 1 hogshead = 238.480942 liters 04:42:01 Erm. XD 04:42:08 Oddly large, then. 04:42:44 `calc 1 hogshead in gallons 04:42:45 1 hogshead = 63 US gallons 04:42:55 63. That number makes sense. 04:43:56 I'm trying to cook, you see. 04:44:01 And by cook, I mean "cook". 04:44:41 If Hamburger Helper is cooking, this is still only "cooking". 04:44:50 Electric stoves scare me. 04:45:24 They have to warm up, and then after that, they have to cool down. 04:45:48 The temperature of this water is rising quadratically. 04:47:08 cars will surely horrify you 04:47:16 they have to speed up, and then they have to slow down 04:47:27 induction stoves are technically electric... or is it magnetic 04:49:36 Warrigal_: ... You are struggling with that> 04:49:41 ? 05:03:01 Preparation requires boiling. Bringing water to a boil is really easy. Boiling something in it is also pretty easy. 05:03:35 You just have to make sure it pretty much continues boiling and doesn't boil over or boil too quickly. 05:04:12 ... And you're struggling with that? 05:06:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:29:07 * Sgeo watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVVfs4zKrgk 05:45:49 I didn't say I was struggling with it. 05:46:03 It went as well as it possibly could have gone. 05:47:59 It's just that, seeing that this house has an electric stove and pondering how such a think would work, I decided that gas stoves were better. 06:20:06 Surrender or pie! 06:34:00 -!- olsner has joined. 06:39:36 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:40:27 -!- coppro has joined. 06:59:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:43:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:43:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:45:14 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 08:49:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 08:54:33 -!- Judofyr__ has joined. 08:57:33 -!- GrayGnome` has joined. 09:01:06 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:10:09 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:13:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:23:52 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:28:21 -!- coppro has joined. 09:28:51 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:30:08 -!- Judofyr__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:30:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:32:58 -!- coppro has joined. 09:51:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:52:31 -!- Octalnet has joined. 09:52:38 Hi guys. 09:53:01 Can anyone point me in the direction of a simplified documentation on Whirl? 09:57:55 No one? 09:59:03 I would guess that http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Whirl and what it links to is all there is. 10:00:14 Thanks. 10:05:34 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:09:14 -!- coppro has joined. 10:10:12 So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version 10:11:46 seriously, I want to go find whoever is behind this and stab them over and over and over 10:12:27 So obviously, you want somebody to ask you what it is they've done 10:14:36 duh 10:15:07 how else can I vent my frustration at the idiot who decided to put the RECOVERY CONSOLE on /USR! 10:15:29 the recovery console is for when /USR is not working! 10:15:36 s/USR/usr/ 10:15:58 moreover, it meant I had to run e2fsck on a mounted filesystem, and that made me NOT happy 10:17:38 Coincidentally, I met the recovery console for the first time yesterday, and on the iBook at least it didn't accept any sensible keyboard input; any keys I pressed were just echoed messily on top of the dialog. 10:18:56 I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way) 10:19:05 also :( at the recovery console not working 10:23:04 also it's 3 AM and it was raining and I can't sleep when it rains because it drips all night and it's very very loud 10:23:48 time for the moment of truth... see whether my decision to run e2fsck on a mounted system fixed the problem (which I suspect was a bad block) 10:24:53 YAY IT FIXED IT 10:25:02 Yes, that sort of option-select-o-tron is what I saw when booting in single-user mode. 10:25:49 are you on Ubuntu? I thought you were referring to the Mac OS SUM, but I guess I was assuping 10:25:52 *assuming 10:27:55 I have Ubuntu and OS X on the iBook, and that was in Ubuntu. (I had left the laptop do a distribution upgrade to 9.04 overnight, it had competely hung up somewhere during the night, and after a reboot Gnome had brokened itself. Got it fixed with the "dpkg --configure -a", which I guess is what I could have done from the boot-up dialog too, had it worked right.) 10:29:07 I'm also pretty confident bad blocks were causing my random crashes during my development, so with any luck those should be gone too 11:04:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:14:33 -!- louzer has joined. 11:15:17 How can I represent 'nil' in combinatory logic? 11:15:26 I want to make a list 11:15:44 and the last thing in the last cons cell is nil 11:20:36 -!- louzer has quit. 11:34:51 -!- louzer has joined. 11:38:01 anyone? 11:43:55 quick... I don't feel like thinking... anyone know a terminating binary value that is nonterminating in decimal? 11:44:02 or is that not possible? 11:48:28 I can't think of one and I wonder if it's impossible because 2 divides 10 11:49:32 At least there's a lot of "other than 2 or 5" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_decimal 11:49:42 yes, that's what I'm thinking of 11:52:40 -!- Octalnet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:04:17 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DecimalExpansion.html and the part immediately after the table. 12:05:30 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:10:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:14:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:16:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:24:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:24:51 2^(-x) = (10/5)^(-x) = 10^(-x)/5^(-x) = 10^(-x)*5^x = terminating 12:30:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:31:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:31:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:57:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:01:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:11:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:11:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:12:11 louzer: such a list element is essentially _either_ nil or a cons cell, so you need a way to distinguish them 13:13:57 in general you can represent that as nil = \nilcase conscase -> nilcase, cons x y = \nilcase conscase -> conscase x y 13:16:01 this method extends to general "algebraic" data types 13:16:39 (haskell lambda notation there) 13:18:17 i read on unlambda page that i can use a union as the last element of a list 13:18:39 there might be a trick... 13:19:59 hm no i read that as using a union for all conses of a list 13:20:26 also that's essentially what i suggested 13:22:09 except i rolled the last union case and the pair case together 13:22:28 the v option doesn't work for pure combinatory logic i think 13:24:15 hmm 13:26:07 brb 13:26:17 -!- louzer has quit. 13:33:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:35:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:46:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 13:46:58 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:07:06 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 14:34:14 -!- louzer has joined. 14:40:55 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:49:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:54:29 ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot 14:54:30 sometimes 14:54:36 oh and 14:54:46 you need to use the last backported wlan drivers 14:54:57 backported from .30 or later 14:55:05 otherwise you seem to get kernel OOPS at shutdown 14:55:45 and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time 14:55:53 I wonder if I can turn it off 14:56:14 hi ais523 btw 14:56:58 hi 14:57:53 ais523, you had kernel oops on shutdown too with your intel wireless or? 14:57:57 AnMaster: no 14:58:05 I'm pretty certain they're different bugs, now 14:58:10 hm, seems it only affect some models 14:58:26 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection 15:06:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:07:12 * AnMaster worries about http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html 15:08:25 -!- oklokok has joined. 15:09:36 ais523, you seen that right? I forgot if you were in here yesterday or not 15:09:53 so have I 15:22:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:22:24 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 15:25:01 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:38:47 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:39:27 Bahahaha, I got invited to a group "I bet I can find 1000000 people who use binary" on Facebook, and what's really sad is that it's nowhere near the claimed b1000000 (64) people. 15:39:46 haha 15:40:25 i've never heard of anyone who uses binary 15:40:36 for a living, so to speak 15:54:41 -!- Pthing has joined. 16:02:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:02:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:02:53 -!- louzer_ has joined. 16:07:00 -!- louzer has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:29:15 -!- louzer_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:37:54 -!- louzer has joined. 16:39:16 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:46:33 -!- jix_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:47:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:47:58 bbl, kernel upgrade 16:48:14 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 16:53:13 -!- AnMaster has joined. 16:57:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:08:41 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 17:15:34 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 17:16:12 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:17:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:17:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:19:44 patched kernel against the issue. 17:20:35 -!- louzer has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:22:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:32:56 -!- ehird has joined. 17:34:07 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:34:35 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:34:53 -!- ehird has joined. 17:45:09 02:10:12 So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version 17:45:13 OH GOD! 17:45:22 Quick, developers! Here's a million bux! 17:45:22 what was coppro's complaint, btw? 17:45:27 GET THIS FIXED BY TOMORROW 17:45:33 ais523: they moved the recovery console to /usr 17:45:43 this is apparently an issue because he breaks /usr aaaaaaaaall the time or something 17:45:54 coppro: use /usr/local instead, that's what it's for 17:45:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:46:03 or just put your own copy in /bin, it's not as if Ubuntu will care 17:46:04 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 17:46:08 it's basically impossible to boot into a livecd if /usr dies, right? 17:46:11 you have to like 17:46:13 physically pick it up 17:46:16 :OOO 17:46:36 rm -rf /usr 17:46:38 02:18:56 I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way) 17:46:44 EVEN WORSE 17:46:45 Whoops, meant to do that in my console! 17:48:58 06:54:29 ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot 17:48:59 sounds such fun. 17:49:06 06:55:45 and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time 17:49:07 06:55:53 I wonder if I can turn it off 17:49:07 almost certainly. 17:49:10 HD activity too 17:49:29 07:07:12 * AnMaster worries about http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html 17:49:29 nobody cares about your machine 17:50:44 * pikhq is not vulnerable 17:51:16 "For today's computer science students, learning C is like taking an elective class in Latin." 17:51:18 o_O 17:51:46 agreed 17:52:36 well okay i'm not sure even i can agree with "elective" 17:52:48 ehird: Agreed, but only because Latin is still very useful. 17:53:06 no, 'snot :P 17:53:59 A computer scientist NOT taking a class in C is like a linguistics student not taking a class in Latin. 17:54:43 GregorR-L: yes, except C is not only something any self-respecting cs dude knows, it's also actually used a lot; latin is only the first one 17:54:51 True. 17:55:09 well C isn't actually very related to theoretical CS 17:55:36 so a CS course could be perfectly good without C, it'd just be real-world useless 17:55:38 true... i guess that's simply a completely irrelevant comparison :P 17:56:15 Yeah, but so's your face. 17:56:16 latin being theoretically useful, but not practically, C being the other way around 17:56:40 GregorR-L: mine and irrelevant or ehird's and real-world useless? 17:56:50 oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz" 17:56:58 oklopol: Both! 8-D 17:57:06 xD 17:57:30 well right, ehird would be real-world useless if he was blind 17:57:41 i'm sure i haven't used the see-joke enough yet 17:57:43 so my only use is seeing things? 17:58:16 no, but going blind, you would be rendered completely useless 17:58:19 I think you can get at least the Bachelor's degree thing for CS at our university without any C, since the two basic-imperative-programming courses are Java nowadays. 17:58:20 if only for a finite amount of time 17:58:45 Though it's not all lost: you won't get the degree without learning about finite state machines and Turing machines. 17:58:46 finnish universities sound boring 17:58:51 like they sound very much like every other uni 17:58:52 My university starts you on C++. 17:59:01 pikhq: make that sentence false 17:59:04 And assumes you're learning other languages. 17:59:08 best way to do that is to make it not your university 17:59:53 We used to have a set of three "basic programming" courses (T1, T2, T3) that had the languages Scheme, C, C++/Java in that order. 18:00:13 PSU starts you with C++. 18:00:15 fizzie: great to okay to bad! 18:00:17 I still feel that's wise. 18:00:21 it's BACK IN TIME 18:00:27 ehird: The US has 3 choices: C++, Java, and a few schools doing Python. 18:00:29 GregorR-L: ...to make you hate programming? 18:00:51 ehird: To make you reaaaaally understand what the f*** is going on. 18:00:51 pikhq: Indeed. Scheme was a choice until, iirc last year; MIT switched to Python. 18:00:52 Of the choices, Python is the sanest. However, it is harder to get to the schools that do Python. 18:00:53 It's trial-by-fire. 18:00:59 Actually the best C course here (or so I hear) is the "automation and systems technology" department one. You know, those guys who are building our future robotic overlords. 18:00:59 GregorR-L: C++... doesn't do that. 18:01:06 Thus, C++. 18:01:07 we had java first, then someone got python on the introductory course, then someone got java back 18:01:22 sad that they killed 6.001 18:01:27 there's a few dudes who want eiffel, although minority 18:01:32 sussman shoulda done it till he kicked the bucket 18:01:35 oklopol: eiffel is fun and obscure 18:01:40 rally with them 18:01:52 Our university does Python for the introductory programming course for non-CS students. 18:02:03 from what i hear, it's much cooler than java or c++, but i've only heard features, not so much seen what it's actually like 18:02:17 But only since last year 18:02:52 oklopol: it's a type-safe OO language with things basically like closures, a wacky inheritance mechanism to make it safer, and machine-enforced contracts on the input/outputs of functions 18:03:05 And the automation people have this awesome ball-shaped robot; actually it looks a bit like the xkcd thing, except it's not based on an Eee PC: http://automation.tkk.fi/Rollo 18:03:33 fizzie: sweet; I want to make the xkcd robot sometime 18:03:34 D's contracts are basically ripped from Eiffel 18:03:58 fizzie: how does rollo handle the whole "camera is all blurry 'cuz it be done spinnin' bout" thing 18:04:16 I don't know, I'm not a robot-builder. 18:04:22 :P 18:04:26 in the xkcd one it stays on the top 18:04:30 outside of the ball 18:04:31 somehow 18:04:32 I see it's been patented, heh. 18:04:40 xD 18:04:45 fuuck patents 18:08:04 -!- ehird has set topic: Hoist by eir own petard | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:18:14 HD activity too <-- pattern less annoying for that 18:18:33 I'll disable it anyway since I hate blinking things that I didn't cause 18:21:24 with a fiery passion. 18:22:42 * ehird finds the exact date where tuomov changed ion3's license 18:22:45 april 27 2007 18:22:50 now to find the closest version before that 18:22:50 -!- Octalnet has joined. 18:22:53 oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz" <-- tell me, what language is the ruby implementation coded in? 18:22:56 Hi, guys. 18:23:03 AnMaster: English is implemented in Latin! 18:23:05 Octalnet: Hi. 18:23:28 Oh, snap: 18:23:29 [[As a further note, I consider the restrictions on the name use 18:23:30 retroactive: this is also an issue of trademark law, and as the 18:23:30 author, I am the (unregistered) trademark holder for Ion, Ion3, 18:23:30 etc. The new license and copyright law merely act as additional 18:23:30 enforcement devices.]] 18:23:33 Eh. I know this isn't the place to ask this, but the good channels are dead. 18:23:44 Good thing I'm not going to call it ion-anything. 18:23:47 Oh, right, hi, Octalnet 18:23:50 We're being offtopic. 18:23:55 Glad you could join us. 18:23:58 Oh, thanks. 18:24:00 :D 18:24:03 ehird, well. there are some differences, but I assume you are aware of them and just try to be funny 18:24:04 bbiab 18:24:05 Octalnet: Verily, I inquire. 18:24:30 Is there a way to go about custom syntax highlighting in SciTE? 18:24:39 For BF, specifically. 18:24:51 esolangs.el highlights bf. 18:24:53 rather pointless. 18:24:59 but no, not for anything that isn't emacs. 18:25:12 wouldn't be hard to add it to anything else 18:25:17 Solution: use an OS, not a text editor. 18:25:17 but really, pointless. 18:25:27 pikhq: Yeah; UNIX. :P 18:25:44 ehird: why'd it pointless? 18:25:46 ehird: Emacs is also an OS. 18:25:51 *why's 18:25:52 oklopol: cuz it'd just be technicolour? 18:26:00 i mean, there's no real syntax elements to speak of 18:26:15 pikhq: Unix is better :P. Incidentally, the basic vi model could handle syntax changes very elegantly if you separated the buffer from the file. 18:26:39 Specifically, have a program (text → text with control codes), and another program to handle moving/editing in it. 18:26:46 Latter could be a bit of a pain, but eh. 18:26:59 actually, even better 18:27:08 (text → separate control codes referencing positions of text) 18:27:10 pikhq, you know, it isn't a funny joke any more the 100th time you hear it 18:27:17 (that's the Word-killing patent, heh) 18:27:22 AnMaster: Dude, emacs IS an OS. 18:27:24 Objectively. 18:27:38 ehird, would you compare it to a lisp machine's OS= 18:27:42 It lacks a kernel, and a decent scheduler, and any interface other than stupid text buffers, and... 18:27:42 s/=/?/ 18:27:46 AnMaster: no, it's a really _bad_ OS 18:28:10 ehird, well, it is as much of an OS as squeak is I guess... 18:28:16 So, completely. 18:28:45 ehird: It's a very domain-specific OS, yes. 18:28:51 ehird, so, it is a kernel less OS. Thus you should clearly like it! ;P 18:28:57 DSO! :D 18:29:02 well 18:29:05 DSOS even 18:29:19 How does Emacs do scheduling? 18:29:51 single threaded OS? 18:30:02 Uhh, I'm fairly sure Emacs can update two buffers at once. 18:30:11 hm yes 18:30:14 no clue 18:30:21 It doesn't; the whole thing's pretty event driven, IIRC. 18:30:31 figures 18:30:56 Not very clean, but quite portable. 18:30:58 I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest 18:31:12 you could make a nice unix IDE with a tiling wm, a bunch of xterms and vi 18:31:18 in one window 18:31:28 That would actually be a nice IDE. 18:31:36 well, I say "not many"; I mean I don't know of even one 18:32:30 is xnest any good? 18:32:36 I dunno its performance characteristics 18:33:30 hmm, xnest seems to fail here 18:34:23 There's also the more modern Xephyr thing, which should be faster. 18:34:44 don't really need speed for vi and xterm :P 18:34:47 well not xterm 18:34:48 urxvt 18:34:49 ofc 18:35:21 ehird, what about using a virtual desktop? 18:35:40 what if you want to look at your irc client too 18:36:20 or do you mean something that can be installed and ready to use as one of those virtual appliances? 18:36:27 if that makes sense 18:36:46 as in, not running in a VM, but similar ready to use X setup 18:37:02 preconfigured Xnest thingy could work well for that I suspect 18:37:07 kind of 18:37:19 no, I just mean a tiling wm running a bunch of urxvts. 18:37:24 in a window. 18:37:32 like a four-liner. 18:37:49 ehird, can't think of any sane way to do it without Xnest. This proves the X protocol sucks 18:38:00 but err 18:38:04 that's exactly what xnest does. 18:38:15 creates an x display as a window 18:38:20 ehird, well yes, but why would you want it without Xnest?? 18:38:27 or did I misunderstood it 18:38:32 stand* 18:38:37 i didn't 18:38:43 i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth 18:38:54 I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest 18:38:59 um 18:39:15 seems like you wanted a tiling vm not using xnet? 18:39:18 xnest* 18:39:23 i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth 18:39:23 i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth 18:39:24 i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth 18:39:24 i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth 18:39:26 ah 18:39:30 right 18:39:30 AnMaster: Tiling WM in a window. 18:39:35 [ehird:~] % xinit twm -display :3 -- xnest :3 18:39:36 xterm Xt error: Can't open display: :3 18:39:36 waiting for X server to shut down 18:39:36 [ehird:~] % 18:39:36 grr 18:40:15 pikhq, yep, but issue is you need a whole X server in a window (like xnest), since otherwise the X server would tell the main window manager about the new apps/windows 18:40:17 iirc 18:40:47 ehird, on mac? 18:40:58 yes 18:41:15 it's just hacked up Xorg 18:41:15 so whatever i'm doing is my stupidity 18:41:27 ehird, that might *possibly* create issues. What with X on mac being kind of nested + seemless mode under the real GUI system 18:41:34 no, that's just the qwartz-wm 18:41:42 hm 18:41:45 you can run twm 18:41:49 it just 18:41:52 it runs rootless 18:41:53 iirc 18:41:54 in a window or? 18:41:58 no root window 18:41:58 AnMaster: no 18:42:00 hm ok 18:42:00 each window is a twm window 18:42:02 floating on the os x desktop 18:42:13 quartz-wm doesn't even draw aqua 18:42:15 ehird, it won't affect non-X windows then? 18:42:16 it looks like Tiger still 18:42:26 AnMaster: no; Aqua isn't X11 18:42:32 right 18:42:43 quartz-wm integrated sort of okay in Tiger but alongside leopard windows it's kinda silly 18:42:45 even the shadow is wrong 18:42:50 ehird, can you run anything with a root window with the X on there 18:42:57 it is full x11 and you can run it fullscreen 18:43:02 if not, what would the window of Xnest contain? 18:43:10 the root window = twm 18:43:11 duh 18:43:24 but yes, it can do root windows. 18:43:26 = fullscreen mode. 18:43:33 right 18:43:37 I made it so that it booted directly into X11/twm recently 18:43:37 was fun 18:43:38 I was trying to debug the issue 18:43:46 used quartz 18:43:48 so that is why I asked about root window sans xnest 18:43:51 so a lot smoother and nicer than other x backgrounds 18:43:52 err 18:43:53 backends 18:44:22 plus I bet someone would claim it looked nicer too ;P 18:44:33 Yes. The pixels have more energy. 18:44:49 ehird, I hate twm though 18:44:53 in a nostalgic way 18:45:04 it's usable 18:45:11 but not usable 18:45:51 I remember back on 2.4 kernels, slackware iirc, first time I got KDE working in it I did it from inside twm 18:46:12 march 6 2007 is when tuomov posted his bitch about debian wrt license 18:46:15 as in, while in there, kill twm, start kwin, start kdesktop, start kicker 18:46:16 and so on 18:46:19 so i guess the last sane release is before that 18:46:22 from an xterm 18:46:27 maybe i'll call it fytv 18:46:35 Friendlytowards You Tuomo Valkonen 18:46:51 pronounced like "fith" but with a v instead of an h. :P 18:48:23 call what? 18:48:44 my fork of the last ion3 before he changed the license to the laughable abomination 18:48:47 I don't even use ion3 18:48:50 I just want to piss him off 18:48:56 because he's a dick, you see. 18:49:31 I know about ion. 18:49:40 Not to mention a retard. 18:49:44 yes, well, it used to be just a GPL-variant 18:49:52 and i'm finding the last one licensed like that I can 18:50:00 and I'm going to try and update it based on changelogs to be bug-free 18:50:02 "I can revoke the GPL!" "... No." 18:50:08 I thought you didn't want to touch the GPL...? 18:50:10 ehird, ^ 18:50:22 at least you claimed that about my GPL code before :P 18:50:24 pikhq: actually, his argument is that since he owns the Ion name he can change the rights to it how he likes 18:50:25 ehird dislikes GPL3, although IIRC not to the extent of refusing to use anything based on it 18:50:35 pikhq: he doesn't claim the license itself is retroactive 18:50:36 he isn't so upset at GPL2, although it still isn't his ideal license 18:50:39 on that point he is probably right 18:50:44 AnMaster: it's LGPL, iirc 18:50:50 which isf in 18:50:50 fine 18:51:27 ehird: He also claimed to revoke the GPL proper, IIRC. 18:51:29 * ehird installs darcs to try and find the relevant change 18:51:32 pikhq: nah 18:51:43 pikhq: it was people thinking his trademark terms were part of the LGPL license 18:51:50 which is understandable, since the file they're in is called LICENSE 18:52:58 pikhq: anyway, tuomov is totally irrelevant now as ion3 is waning in popularity and he uses Windows XP/cygwin now 18:53:27 \ 18:53:31 Whoo. 18:53:36 what is ion3? 18:53:50 ais523: once very popular tiling window manager 18:53:55 from the guy who invented tabbing window managers 18:54:01 ais523: he changed the license to, well 18:54:05 you have to see this to believe it 18:54:07 sec 18:54:08 I know it 18:54:13 the anti-Debian clause 18:54:16 no no 18:54:17 no no no no no 18:54:18 way more than that 18:54:26 well, that means they have to keep it up to date, or not use it 18:54:30 sec 18:54:53 - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the 18:54:53 copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default. 18:54:54 - Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on 18:54:54 the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days 18:54:54 of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete 18:54:54 and unsupported. 18:54:56 - Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user 18:54:58 explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and 18:55:00 is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered 18:55:02 the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder. 18:55:04 The version string displayed by the program must describe these 18:55:06 modifications and the "support void" status. 18:55:08 Versions for which the above conditions are not satisfied, must be 18:55:10 renamed so that they can not be associated with the Ion project, their 18:55:12 executables must be given names that do not conflict with the copyright 18:55:14 holder's version, and neither the copyright holder nor the Ion project 18:55:16 may be referred to for support. 18:55:19 one suggestion he made to debian was "do like you do with the kernel and name packages ion-version" 18:55:23 (the response being "haha no fuck off") 18:56:27 ugh, all the ion3 docs are in tex 18:56:37 -!- Octalnet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:57:30 ais523: anyway, he now uses Windows XP and cygwin, and occasionally posts retarded but hilarious anti-FOSS spasms on his "not a" blog 18:58:41 ehird, why does debian do that for the kernel btw 18:58:49 AnMaster: multiple kernels at once 18:59:11 oh right apt/dpkg can't handle multiple versions of a package installed side by side otherwise 18:59:29 (hint: portage can, called slotted packages) 18:59:48 (same result though) 19:00:01 80/10 19:00:07 (but treated as the same package, different version for most purposes) 19:00:08 er, 80/20 19:00:17 ehird, ? 19:04:30 -!- M0ny has joined. 19:05:44 hi guys :) 19:06:42 hi 19:06:49 plop. 19:07:11 wassup ? 19:09:56 the skyyyyyyyyyyy 19:13:38 Ooh, the suckless guys made a terminal. 19:13:42 http://st.suckless.org/ 19:14:28 1097 lines, nice. 19:16:20 that page has a recursive see also link 19:16:28 ais523: it's the manpage 19:16:41 I think 19:16:55 Huh, they're also making a web browser. 19:17:27 — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long 19:17:28 impresive 19:17:35 seems to even do downloads 19:18:02 What are they doing, trying to make non-sucky UNIX? 19:18:12 pikhq: the suckless guys are all plan 9 weenies 19:18:16 so, yes 19:18:45 A commendable, though not-very-revolutionary goal. 19:19:01 Their stuff is nice, though 19:19:04 heard of wmii? 19:19:05 or dwm? 19:19:08 they made those 19:19:31 also a filesystem-based irc client 19:19:38 oh, and dmenu 19:20:45 -!- kokkafasas has joined. 19:21:13 hi kokkafasas 19:22:16 hjii 19:22:43 — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long <-- excluding webkit itself I assume 19:22:54 also excluding the linux kernel, glibc,.... 19:22:55 how much do webkit do of the job? 19:22:59 -!- kokkafasas has left (?). 19:23:05 it renders the actual pages and keeps the cookies 19:23:12 so about as much as gecko. 19:23:13 maybe less. 19:23:16 ehird, not cache? 19:23:16 webkit is very embeddable. 19:23:17 well 19:23:19 AnMaster: maybe. 19:23:23 prolly, even 19:23:28 I don't know the details of gecko either 19:23:50 ehird, what I'm wondering is "is it just providing buttons, just rendering, or something in between" 19:23:57 I guess the latter alternative 19:24:48 Gecko is horrifying. 19:28:36 Huh. All the programs I use are suggested by them as "cool programs". 19:28:50 What, including xulrunner? 19:29:13 Conkeror, specifically. 19:29:17 ah 19:29:29 their web servers list is a bit bare; I should write that webserver sometime 19:30:52 wow, xmms2 is still going 19:33:10 pikhq: the suckless guys really like the plan 9 shell rc, btw; it's worth checking out for fun unixy scripting: 19:33:28 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html 19:33:28 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/rc 19:33:51 it actually unifies all the shell concepts 19:33:54 with a nice syntax 19:36:09 e.g. a proper string concatenation operator 19:38:25 http://suckless.org/common/broken_programs <-- point two is a pain in VMs btw 19:38:37 oh and on my laptop when DPI size is set correctly 19:38:50 plenty of programs try to render taller than the screen 19:38:51 AnMaster: on windows, basically no program works with correct dpi 19:38:55 they all use pixels 19:39:04 ehird, well, on linux I meant 19:39:07 yeah 19:39:11 just saying you should be glad 19:39:36 ehird, couldn't use a nice looking QT frontend for qemu. because it rendered taller than my screen 19:39:40 forgot the name of it 19:40:01 ehird: I think I love Plan 9 shell. 19:40:07 pikhq: = rc 19:40:11 it is great 19:40:12 Yeah. 19:40:16 and plan9port has it for modern unices 19:40:21 no line editing, though; use rlwrap or sth 19:40:34 "In any case, the ICCCM requests that clients accept any size the window manager proposes to them." <-- there are issues with that, what if you can't fit in? Scrollbars? 19:40:36 It's, like, Bourne minus the suck. 19:40:46 AnMaster: that's the WM's problem 19:41:04 pikhq: in fact, the website generator (static files + some dynamic bits) powering suckless.org is written in rc 19:41:09 and doesn't look awkward at all 19:41:19 before that they had a server-side wiki written in rc and it was like 100 lines 19:41:29 RC = <3. 19:41:46 yeah, I think I'm gonna s/zsh/rc/ on my system now 19:41:57 which i suppose officially makes me a plan 9 weenie 19:42:03 "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints that only work properly with a window manager supporting these extensions – this simply breaks the ICCCM as well. E.g. trash icon programs." <-- so they wish to forbid all apps meant to work in taskbars and such 19:42:10 AnMaster: no 19:42:18 what then 19:42:27 AnMaster: There's a standardised way of doing that, FWIW. 19:42:31 trash icons require hints from the wm that icccm doesn't require 19:43:15 ehird, trash icon, do you mean like the one found in the lower panel on default gnome desktop? 19:43:18 yes 19:43:50 ehird, how is it different from, say, the gnome mixer thingy, or the kde mixer thingy, or any other app? 19:43:57 you can drag things on to it 19:43:58 that puts it's icon in the taskbar 19:44:03 for vaguely specified values of thing 19:44:11 ehird, hm. maybe you can't for normal such 19:44:13 never tried 19:44:13 and it uses non-ICCM magick 19:44:36 hmm, rlwrap appears to have some rendering problems with the tab char 19:44:43 ehird, it is meant for gnome I guess, could be considered part of gnome, rather than freestanding app only working with gnome 19:44:52 AnMaster: no 19:45:00 it's specifically saying that gnome's trash icon breaks the icccm 19:45:01 simple 19:45:01 it sounds a bit like "the setting apps for window maker only works with window maker" 19:45:09 ehird: They made the conditionals sane! ZOMG! 19:45:11 it breaks the iccm 19:45:13 full stop 19:45:18 icccccccccccm 19:45:19 pikhq: yep 19:45:22 pikhq: and the loops 19:45:34 ehird, what is the ICCM way of doing that then I wonder 19:45:37 would be interesting to know 19:45:38 pikhq: btw, 'rlwrap -c rc' almost works; the automatic tabbing it does messes up after an enter 19:45:54 but it completes filenames perfectly 19:46:03 and logs to .rc_history 19:46:47 hm 19:46:57 why wouldn't xchat work in a tiling vm 19:47:01 wm* 19:47:07 it lists no reason 19:47:22 -l If -l is given or the first character of argument zero is -, 19:47:22 rc reads commands from $home/lib/profile, if it exists, 19:47:22 before reading its normal input. 19:47:22 ↑ heh, a vestige of plan 9 19:47:53 prolly worth writing a shell script that lets your normal .profile run, then "exec rlwrap -c rc" 19:47:57 and using that as your shell 19:48:54 ehird, "as your shell" == "login shell"? 19:48:58 yes 19:49:12 I wonder if using a shebang script as the shell works 19:49:15 that way you can keep a single profile, and avoid the $HOME/lib/profile stuff 19:49:22 AnMaster: we're about to find out 19:49:47 ehird, make sure you aren't using ubuntu OR have an extra account able to sudo :P 19:49:54 or just keep a shell open. 19:49:57 oh and don't forget to update the list of valid shells 19:50:04 % echo $PATH 19:50:08 /Users/ehird/bin:/usr/local/bin:/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/Users/ehird/.cabal/bin:/Applications/J/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/plan9/bin 19:50:09 success 19:50:31 ehird, updated /etc/shells? otherwise it will probably work until you try a clean login 19:50:41 chsh doesn't let you use a non /etc/shells shells. 19:50:42 so, yes. 19:51:20 hmm, 'rlwrap ' has some side-effects 19:51:26 like messing up if a child program uses readline 19:51:31 will have to fix. sometime. 19:53:07 still, i have an rc shell with completion and line editing basically working when i opwn a new terminal 19:53:10 happy. 19:54:06 acme works surprisingly well on os x 19:54:11 even has a proper dock icon 19:54:18 albeit all graphical plan 9 apps just have the bunny :) 19:54:35 I wonder about XChat on that list too; I'm using awesome (which is not just tiling but also non-re-parenting) and haven't seen any problems re xchat. 19:55:06 well 19:55:06 "The program assumes a specific window management model" 19:55:07 nope 19:55:11 "The application uses a fixed size – this limitation does not fit into the world of tiling window managers very well" 19:55:12 maybe 19:55:17 "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints" 19:55:18 probably not 19:55:21 "The program does not conform to ICCCM due to some missing or improperly set hints." 19:55:22 quite likely 19:55:40 Yes, I guess that last one is the likeliest. 19:56:09 pikhq: if you want to go down the rabbit hole a bit more, make sure you have plan9port and try sam(1) 19:56:15 it's graphical ed and it's actually nice. 19:58:23 ehird, xchat won't let me resize the window (running under KDE 3.5) to less than menu bar + topic bar + one line of the text window + the input field 19:58:33 pikhq: and hey, ken thompson, brian kernighan and bjarne stroustrup can't be wrong, right? 19:58:43 limit for width seems to be when entries in menu bar would go outside the window 19:59:15 as for the last one, yes quite likely 20:00:25 Yes, it seems to have some sort of minimum size, doesn't go any smaller. 20:01:19 fizzie, I don't think GTK would gracefully handle "less width than the menus take up" in a sane way 20:01:46 anyway, I'm not sure it is sensible to try to handle it 20:02:19 might be best to error out or something with a dialog saying that the user should use xchat mini for phones (or something like that ;) 20:02:20 Not sanely, no, but at least the Iceweasel window doesn't seem to have any minimum size. 20:03:55 Quite a lot of GTK programs seem to have size restrictions. And if I try to make gconf-editor go smaller than what it wants, it prints (gconf-editor:6735): Gtk-WARNING **: gtk_widget_size_allocate(): attempt to allocate widget with width -5 and height 13 20:06:17 um 20:06:19 width -5 20:06:39 I can understand it's (its?) distress 20:07:22 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:08:17 whoa 20:08:19 a lot of messages dropped 20:08:35 [19:58] ehird: well, okay, the latter can be. 20:08:35 [19:58] ehird: dennis ritchie used to use it but now uses acme 20:08:35 [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that. 20:08:35 [20:02] ehird: pikhq: oh, something that might turn you away from rc: it has & but no ^Z job control; you're meant to use a windowing system instead 20:08:36 [20:03] ehird: (in fact, they were making that case in 1994 :P) 20:08:36 [20:04] ehird: oh, and you have to use $home, not ~ 20:08:53 bbl 20:09:11 pikhq: awesome rc thing - 20:09:35 % echo 'Hello, '^(world chicken pikhq)^'!' 20:09:35 Hello, world! Hello, chicken! Hello, pikhq! 20:09:41 it's like an array language! 20:10:46 :) 20:10:54 oh, a problem with rlwrapping rc 20:11:01 it's dumb and doesn't understand the changed directory 20:11:04 how about % echo ('Hello, ' 'Good bye, ')^(world chicken pikhq) ? 20:11:06 maybe i should just hack rc to add readline 20:11:18 MizardX: rc: mismatched list lengths in concatenation 20:11:28 oh 20:11:40 would be cool if that worked, though :P 20:12:08 ^x and x^ on both of those parts respectively is, 20:12:15 ('Hello, x' 'Good bye, x') 20:12:15 and 20:12:24 (xworld xchicken xpikhq) 20:12:29 so it probably should be 20:12:45 ('Hello, world' 'Good bye, world' 'Hello, chicken' 'Good bye, chicken' 'Hello, pikhq' 'Good bye, pikhq') 20:12:50 giving precedent to the first list 20:15:47 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:16:31 * ehird_ opens rc source in acme, types grep -r 'main(' ., then drags the middle mouse button over it and gets the results in a separate pane 20:16:38 has anyone used those mice that have a scroll wheel, but a separate middle button? 20:16:42 the scroll wheel is on the middle button 20:17:17 Yeah, and I hate it 20:17:29 it would be a godsend for plan 9 20:19:55 ooh, ICANN has finally cracked down on domain squatters who don't buy the domain they're squatting 20:20:06 how about cracking down on all of them 20:20:27 if more than 10% of a registrar's domains are cancelled, they're charged $6.75 per domain cancelled 20:20:49 the internet is an interesting dictatorship 20:21:08 ais523: URL? 20:21:31 ooh, double clicking was invented as a hack because the Apple Lisa's mouse only had one button 20:21:35 http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/08/escalating-penalties-bring-domain-tasting-to-a-crashing-halt.ars 20:22:19 [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that.<-- that == ? 20:22:26 AnMaster: resizing 20:22:36 ehird_, read the log then 20:22:41 ....................................... 20:22:45 we found out it was that 20:22:49 No, it's not 20:22:51 You guessed it was that 20:22:53 Never heard the expression "domain tasters" before. 20:23:01 ehird_, it has a minimum size 20:23:05 ARGH 20:23:05 READ IT 20:23:07 which it refuses to resize below 20:23:09 The suckless people aren't saying "let us open windows that are smaller than a menu" 20:23:11 they are saying 20:23:13 "DON'T USE A FIXED SIZE" 20:23:15 FIXED siz 20:23:15 e 20:23:19 as in IGNORES the WM, always 20:23:19 hm ok 20:23:29 →→→→→→ not a minimum 20:23:30 ok 20:25:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_trails ;; who the hell thinks these are a good idea 20:27:27 Hahaha 20:27:30 Yeah, I hate that one 20:27:35 ehird_, accessibility? 20:27:37 well 20:27:43 AnMaster: uhhh huh 20:27:49 ehird_, maybe not 20:27:49 Especially the Windows implementation... looks like separate cursors 20:28:17 ehird_, whoever implemented the feature, or the manager that decided it should be implemented 20:28:34 they're idiots. 20:29:30 "Mouse pointer trails have been provided as a feature mainly for users with poor vision and for screens that are difficult to see, such as LCD screens in bright sunlight." <-- no idea about that. But if the user both has poor vision and is using a computer for the first time in his life? 20:29:33 then MAYBE 20:29:43 (tough I doubt it) 20:34:26 i used to love pointer trails 20:34:53 AnMaster: *though 20:35:09 i should switch them on 20:36:14 okay this is so much prettier 20:36:15 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 20:42:53 -!- FireFly has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:53 -!- ineiros has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:54 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:42:54 -!- augur has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:43:20 oklopol: no it's not 20:43:56 by "vision problems" they mean "poor visual tastse" 20:44:00 taste* 20:44:11 :P 20:44:19 of course it is. of course, i'd like it even more if it was like a flock of birds 20:44:27 xD 20:44:42 being interesting > being useful 20:44:50 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 20:45:02 -!- ineiros has joined. 20:45:05 of course, the trails aren't that interesting 20:45:26 just pretty 20:46:29 IDEA: Be able to type on single mouse and keyboard and have the stuff happen on the right computer (laptop or desktop) automagically. 20:46:40 how to implement? eye tracker 20:46:48 I think it could actually work 20:47:01 heh 20:47:12 one computer would somehow redirect keyboard/mouse events to the other computer if I was looking at it's screen 20:47:18 why not use an eye tracker for the mouse? 20:47:21 IDEA: Screw window management. Try OS management. 20:47:23 i've always wondered about that 20:47:25 AnMaster: consider the usecase of typing on irc while glancing over at the porn on your other computer. 20:47:30 oklopol, hm. how do you click? 20:47:34 it's very important to take porn into account when designing a UI 20:47:36 blinking? 20:47:40 eh, with a button? 20:47:41 oklopol: prolly been done 20:47:44 well blinking, if that works 20:47:46 Where you don't have each window with an application in it, but just a bunch of OSes. 20:47:47 dasher has been implemented with eyes 20:47:48 ehird_, has been done 20:47:50 it requires no clicking 20:48:02 AnMaster: any response to the all important porn complaint? in fact i should name that 20:48:12 Elliott's Law: if a UI doesn't make it easy to interact with porn, it will fail. 20:48:18 This begins to approach ehirdOS as you take it to the obvious conclusions. 20:48:31 everything begins to approach ehirdOS that way 20:48:32 ehird_, for the porn thingy: why not just use the same computer 20:48:34 apart from really bad things 20:48:35 http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ <-- move mouse pointer between different computers 20:48:43 MizardX: yes, we know 20:48:45 both fit on my 21" monitor of desktop 20:48:48 that + sloppy focus could work 20:48:56 AnMaster: it could be HD porn! 20:49:22 reason for using both: messing around with virtualbox on laptop and some 3D stuff on desktop 20:49:33 irc is on desktop too 20:49:46 musicbrainz on laptop 20:50:10 oh btw ehird.... I get different PUIDs when ripping with laptop and desktop 20:50:19 seems to be due to "length off by a few frames" 20:50:31 a cd frame is like a fraction of a second 20:50:41 ehird_, someone suggested pregap too 20:50:52 music sound the same btw 20:50:53 pregap is fun 20:50:59 I have a CD with a song in the pregap 20:51:08 no computer cd drives in this house can see it 20:51:15 so i just pirated it. 20:51:18 heh 20:51:44 anyway I used cdparanoia on both desktop and laptop... 20:51:45 on a stereo you can rewind from track 1 20:51:48 to get at it 20:51:52 oh and 20:51:57 for *most* tracks it is the same 20:52:07 on one cd for example it was off for two tracsk 20:52:10 tracks* 20:52:39 don't know which is "correct", since I added the cd to MB myself a few weeks ago 20:52:46 so don't have any reference to use 20:53:31 btw 20:53:37 oklopol, about eye tracker for mouse 20:53:41 I see some issues with it 20:53:53 sure it would work nice a lot of the time, assuming the precision is good enough 20:53:55 eye tracker for mouse in an fps would be fun 20:54:11 but, I often look somewhere else on screen after I already aimed mouse 20:54:12 as in 20:54:20 1. look where I want to go, start moving 20:54:21 that + gun controller with trigger that acts as a click 20:54:25 and foot pedals for jumping 20:54:28 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever 20:54:33 maybe a scroll wheel dealie on the other hand for switching weapons 20:54:35 would be fun! 20:54:36 3. click the place without looking at it 20:54:49 oh and another pedal for "forwards" of coures. 20:54:52 *course 20:55:11 ehird_, elbow controller 20:55:15 wat 20:55:15 AnMaster: 1. look where I want to go, start moving ||| AnMaster: 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever <<< with an eye tracker, this makes no sense 20:55:22 ehird_, just invented it 20:55:25 because at 1., you've done clicking. 20:55:28 oklopol, oh true 20:55:32 that's the fucking beauty of it, not a problem of it 20:55:42 AnMaster: elbow licking controller 20:55:48 only for the elite! 20:56:01 oklopol, however, I sometimes don't want to move mouse, like when I'm dragging something, and then I look for checking something in a terminal, then continue to drag 20:56:07 as in, verify while I'm doing it 20:56:09 or similiar 20:56:11 just drag it over the terminal 20:56:12 and then move off 20:56:25 i feel like clenching your eyes should be clicking 20:56:31 so you can drag 20:56:33 AnMaster: i'm not saying it works directly with the current ui's. 20:56:47 ehird_, no, like you rest your elbow on the armrest of your chair, then your chin in your palm 20:56:54 AnMaster: no, elbow licking. 20:56:56 then you move your elbow slightly 20:56:58 to control input 20:57:03 ehird_, well that could work too 20:57:09 different vairants 20:57:15 variants* 20:57:24 oklopol, fair enough 20:57:32 -!- dbc has joined. 20:57:36 btw, how would you drag with that interface 20:57:40 the eye tracker I mean 20:57:45 clench eyes 20:57:54 ehird_, anyway blink wouldn't work 20:57:57 of course 20:57:59 thus clench eyes 20:58:01 since human eyes blink every few seconds 20:58:19 you don't need a few seconds for anything mouse-related 20:58:24 with an eye-tracker 20:58:25 built in behaviour to keep the eye surface moist 20:58:38 AnMaster is telling us that our eyes blink automatically 20:58:38 and why 20:58:39 oklopol, I think you misunderstood 20:58:41 isn't that cute? 20:58:42 anyway i'd just have buttons. 20:58:47 point is 20:58:54 that would be mistaken for clicks 20:58:55 easily 20:58:58 I suspect 20:59:13 oklopol, would work better but be less coool 20:59:15 AnMaster: yeah i know your point. i never suggested clicking 20:59:25 anyway eye clenching, why not 21:00:34 i would suggest having tons of little movements of the eyelids, but i do admit not everyone would probably like that 21:00:42 would look weird, for one 21:00:57 but you could get three clicks with just left clench, right clench, both clench 21:01:07 I think both should be left 21:01:10 since it's the easiest 21:01:23 oklopol: ooh i have a good one 21:01:29 rolling your eyes in the back of your head is scrolling. 21:01:40 i don't see a difference in easiness, but yeah it's relatively common for people not to like moving them separately 21:01:46 Facial expression controller 21:02:05 what do you mean rolling them in the back of your head? 21:02:21 like, upwards, until under the lids? 21:02:37 some people can't do that either 21:03:32 From what I hear, eye-tracking for control is pretty iffy, since the actual eye-movement stuff is not so very conscious, and the actual tracking systems that exist now are not very accurate. (An eye is not quite like a trackball ball, after all.) 21:03:55 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:04:23 well if they aren't perfectly accurate, then it'd obviously suck 21:04:27 -!- coppro has joined. 21:04:28 i just kinda assumed 21:05:14 The augmented-reality multimodal-interfaces people are playing with eye-trackers, I hear from them every now and then. 21:05:36 There's that http://www.pinview.eu/ project. 21:05:37 fizzie: i don't know about conscious, but whenever i want to click something, i look at it. so at least if there was like a button to start following eyes, it'd work for me 21:06:17 oklopol: i can't roll them in the back of my head either 21:06:18 it was a joke 21:06:23 since it makes you feel sick too from what i gather 21:06:26 better idea 21:06:34 click = ear wiggle 21:06:38 that could work fairly well 21:06:43 Yes, I'm just not sure their "okay, now the user is actually consciously focusing on this thing" detection is so good. It can't just go around selecting everything you look at. 21:06:49 i can wiggle my ear if i smile... 21:07:06 sorta 21:07:18 ehird_: i can do it easily 21:07:24 you suck :P 21:07:25 I can wiggle my ears up/down easily 21:07:31 never managed back/forth 21:07:41 i can make my eyes shake around wildly 21:07:45 can't do the "eyes under eyelids" 21:07:46 like oscillate 21:07:49 at all 21:07:50 zzzzzzzz 21:07:58 they don't make a sound though 21:08:10 I can move my ears separately, but not easily 21:08:14 Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was. 21:08:20 okay i have come up with an interface that almost all humans will like to use 21:08:22 I've seen that 21:08:26 AnMaster: I can move my ears separately, but not easily <<< i never learned that :< 21:08:32 basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it 21:08:41 oklopol, well, it is more like "one moves a lot, the other moves a tiny bit" 21:08:49 rather than "one moves, the other doesn't" 21:08:50 i hear its fundamental controller is very popular 21:08:56 ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too. 21:09:24 fizzie: Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was. <<< i have two completely different vibrations! 21:09:29 basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it <-- measure how? As in "in what position" or what? 21:09:32 the other is really small 21:09:37 and it tickles. 21:09:42 Speaking of that fundamental controller, this is an old thing but still a bit related, http://web.media.mit.edu/~hayes/mas863/urinecontrol.html 21:09:44 AnMaster: just, like, micromeasurements 21:09:52 ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too. <-- what about eyebrows? 21:10:02 oklopol, are they still? 21:10:05 fizzie: does it involve trying to hit various flies in the urinal 21:10:07 because if so awesome 21:10:17 yes 21:10:17 <3 21:10:42 AnMaster: oklopol, are they still? <<< no, which makes it trivial and uninteresting; damn you for asking :P 21:10:58 well for the nose, they are still 21:11:11 oklopol, mine are still 21:11:17 wiggle nose? 21:11:19 in what way 21:11:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:11:26 anyway, these facial things are goddamn hard to learn, and they say many can't be learned at all, like the tongue things 21:11:42 so i consider the fact i've been able to learn them mostly luck 21:12:02 yes some are genetic controlled 21:12:18 some of the tongue ones for example 21:12:20 rolling tongue? 21:12:22 i can roll my tongue 21:12:24 not that i can imagine anyone except myself actually making an effort towards learning them, but probably there have been some studies 21:12:26 ehird_, yep that is one of them 21:12:32 it's fun 21:12:34 I can't roll my tongue 21:12:37 :/ 21:12:42 it's easy you just like 21:12:43 roll it. 21:12:44 ehird_: i can roll it in two ways 21:12:51 ehird_, you have the recessive gene then 21:12:53 well i can do the tube thing 21:12:54 iirc 21:12:55 and also 21:12:57 it's the weird wave thing, making it look like a flower, that i can't do 21:12:57 make a sort of wave 21:13:05 i fold the tip of it 21:13:09 then unfold that and the next bit 21:13:10 etc 21:13:11 to the back 21:13:12 ehird_, how far up/down can you reach 21:13:21 AnMaster: like, my tougue? 21:13:23 tongue 21:13:34 ehird_, as in, stick it out, try to touch your nose/beard 21:13:43 i'm 13. i don't have a beard. 21:13:50 i can touch just below the tip of my nose 21:13:50 oh sorry 21:13:51 lol, noob 21:13:54 no offence meant 21:13:57 and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin 21:14:03 i can touch just below the tip of my nose <-- same 21:14:11 and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin <-- I can do a bit more 21:14:19 as in, quite a far bit downwards 21:14:22 i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it 21:14:26 i say a bit, i'm really quite far away frmo it 21:14:29 *from 21:14:56 Soon you'll be comparing tongue size with rulers. 21:15:07 that's kinda hard 21:15:09 :D 21:15:17 i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it <-- I shave whenever the moustache causes problems with eating 21:15:24 which is usually every second month or so 21:15:30 last shaved a few weeks ago 21:15:45 so quite a short beard and moustache atm 21:16:14 moustaches are the worst things to happen to faces 21:16:15 ever 21:16:17 however, this is all due to laziness 21:16:28 ehird_, nah, not when they are connected to the beards 21:16:36 moustache only yes 21:16:39 well okay 21:17:13 ehird_, think full beard, old sailor with pipe in his mouth, there is a moustache there too, but it's ends would be connected to the beard 21:17:21 Think Alan Cox. :p 21:17:39 I don't want to think about Alan's cocks. 21:17:51 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Alan_Cox_at_FOSS_2007.jpg is I guess reasonably current. 21:18:03 fizzie, similiar, but Alan Cox's facial hair is kind of... unordered? 21:18:08 i want to grow a beard that trails 21:18:10 disorganized? 21:18:11 Yes, you could call it that. 21:18:12 a moustache is okay if it's significantly smaller than the beard 21:18:12 like, around the whole room 21:18:35 AnMaster: It's just so dynamic! Vibrant! Energized! (See, my adjectives are far more positive.) 21:18:42 fizzie, :D 21:18:55 fizzie, it fits a hacker 21:19:06 heheheh, cox 21:19:24 ok that was interesting... I closed firefox, saving tabs. then five seconds later it, it reopened, resaved tabs, and closed again 21:19:29 I didn't touch anything 21:19:30 huh 21:19:47 Slereah_, that's his name 21:19:59 works for red hat iirc. 21:20:13 thought 21:20:19 email quote syntaxes suck 21:20:35 ehird_, hm? maybe something xml based would be better 21:20:38 ;P 21:20:42 I mean the header 21:20:49 oh yes 21:20:51 [[On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:39, Elliott Hird wrote:]] 21:20:51 it is free form 21:20:54 could be written just as well as 21:20:57 ehird_, you mean: 21:21:05 [[Elliott Hird, today:]] 21:21:21 or, if it wasn't the same day, 21:21:25 I don't think he's at Red Hat nowadays; certainly worked there a lot, though. 21:21:29 hm no 21:21:30 [[Elliott Hird, 2009-08-14:]] 21:21:34 Yes, "Alan was employed by Linux distributor Red Hat for ten years, leaving in January 2009. He is now employed by Intel." 21:21:34 i guess gmail's comes close 21:21:38 ehird_, well it is also l10n usually 21:21:41 hmm those , and : are rather unneeded 21:21:43 anyway 21:21:44 maybe 21:21:47 today wouldn't work well 21:21:50 for archive purposes 21:21:56 AnMaster: dude, you archive the message date. 21:22:20 ehird_, well. why the additional logic trying to interpret that 21:22:26 rather, have a standard format 21:22:33 including message id 21:22:41 because email is for human 21:22:41 s 21:22:47 and then have the mail program/site translate it 21:22:49 as needed 21:22:53 would handle l10n too 21:22:54 god i hate humans 21:22:58 in a painless way 21:22:59 rec.games.roguelike.nethack used to have quite a few decidedly non-standard quote headers. 21:23:08 (no offense) 21:23:10 fizzie, examples? 21:23:13 usenet generally does 21:23:27 "ELLIOTT HIRD WONDERED LONELY AS A CLOUD AND THEN VOMITED THIS MESSAGE - LOOK AREN'T I COOL I HAVE A CUSTOM QUOTE HEADER -" 21:23:39 I'm not sure I can find some, but you can guess the style. And I suppose they really would actually be quite rare, just selection bias in memory. 21:23:41 hmm 21:23:45 including the date in the quote header 21:23:48 is totally unneccesary 21:23:55 since you can trivially find the original message in a threaded system 21:24:14 ehird_, there is an issue, what if you don't have the original 21:24:14 say 21:24:19 someone forwarded a convo 21:24:34 you should forward it in mbox format or whatever 21:24:36 (for whatever reason) 21:24:38 besides, date isn't the only thing you'd miss 21:24:40 ehird_, maildir 21:24:41 you'd miss subjects too etc 21:24:42 clearly 21:24:48 AnMaster: no, mbox. because it's one file. 21:24:55 ehird_, no, outlook format 21:25:02 and so on 21:25:10 uhh, mbox is standard. 21:25:11 there would be NO way we would end up with one format 21:25:17 ehird_, with variants 21:25:22 see jwz's website iirc 21:25:23 i don't fucking care about standardisation 21:25:27 or was it djb 21:25:32 AnMaster: variants don't matter, it's for human consumption 21:25:32 anyway 21:25:34 i 21:25:34 don't 21:25:35 care 21:25:36 beacuse 21:25:41 ehird_, From: has to be quoted 21:25:41 nobody will adopt this quote format except me 21:25:44 so only i have to care 21:25:47 AnMaster: NOT TO THE HUMAN BRAIN! 21:25:50 only to a dumb machine parser 21:26:00 ehird_, well, why use mbox then 21:26:01 we're talking about forwarding, to humans 21:26:04 if it is for human only 21:26:09 AnMaster: because it's standard, pretty easy to read 21:26:13 and everything has support for it already 21:26:55 you're such an annoying practicalist 21:27:22 uhh, no. 21:27:25 I would think the date-in-quote-header would be more useful in the case where someone Cc:s you in a reply; it sounds a bit complicated to start sending mbox files around at that point. 21:27:27 mbox is fairly pure. 21:27:34 it's just 'From ', message 21:27:36 repeat forever 21:27:40 (raw message, inc headers) 21:27:48 fizzie: why is date so important 21:27:53 why date and not everything else too 21:28:11 date and email 21:28:13 besides, clients add reply-to headers 21:28:14 and the like 21:28:16 those are the most important 21:28:17 that's how threading works 21:28:21 AnMaster: why 21:28:23 why date 21:28:28 why are you so obsessed with date and time? 21:28:34 ehird_, yes, but for CC you wouldn't have the metadata of the original mail 21:28:41 unless it was in some mailing list 21:28:47 which it often isn't 21:28:50 ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ 21:29:19 ehird_, because that and email are the only useful ones? Possibly subject too 21:29:29 but stuff like X-Mail-Client or whatever 21:29:33 would be fairly useless 21:29:35 why is date so useful 21:29:35 because date is useful 21:29:37 in 99% of the cases 21:29:38 genius! 21:30:09 ehird_, well, I can't see why it would be *less* useful than most other headers 21:30:13 I'm not quite sure how useful the date is, but it's certainly more useful than the other headers, discounting from/to/subject, which you would get in the "cc'd reply" case. 21:30:30 to understand the message all you need is the name 21:30:38 to understand timing issues 21:30:47 like, if there is a misunderstanding between three persons 21:30:52 what if it's a flamewar about the subject 21:30:55 then the subject is important 21:30:56 to check date/time 21:30:59 let's include the subject too! 21:31:12 ehird_, sounds like it might be useful 21:31:22 also, it is useful in general 21:31:27 congrats, I just reductio ad absurdum'd your ass 21:31:32 for "internal timeline purposes" 21:31:34 you just suggested putting the subject in quote lines. 21:32:01 ehird_, I think it might be reasonable yes 21:32:06 seriously 21:32:08 why wouldn't it be 21:32:11 lollllllllllll 21:32:12 -!- coppro has joined. 21:32:15 so let's include every header, just in case 21:32:18 Whoa! I just realized this conversation is going nowhere! 21:32:22 maybe it's a flamewar about someone using outlook 21:32:26 ehird_, can you prove subject isn't useful? 21:32:27 right AnMaster? 21:32:32 you asked me to prove date was useful 21:32:36 AnMaster: can you prove god doesn't exist? 21:32:44 also, ↑ about mail client. 21:32:58 Can you prove oklopol exists! That's something I've often wondered. 21:32:59 ehird_, then you asked me to prove the something similar 21:33:07 in which case you were just trolling 21:33:20 you're ignoring my analogous argument because it reflects badly on yorus 21:33:22 stop that. 21:33:26 *yours 21:33:31 fizzie: pay for a train ticket, and you'll have your proof 21:33:54 Ah, that's just be some starlight reflecting from swamp gas if I saw you. 21:33:56 I know how it goes. 21:34:05 A weather balloon or something. 21:34:14 i should go and meet oklopol sometime, always wondered what it's like to be murdered 21:34:46 ehird_: actually finland outlawed murder 21:34:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:34:55 oklopol: you pirate things on bittorrent 21:34:57 that's illegal too innit 21:35:00 same thing really 21:35:08 ehird_: yes, but torrents don't have worried mums 21:35:17 so kill my mother first. 21:35:18 DUH 21:35:18 that hunt me down 21:35:20 and put me in jail 21:35:21 hmm 21:35:23 "When you pirate software, you're murdering ehird." 21:35:24 right 21:35:35 "Please think of the ehirds." 21:35:51 ehird_: could you bring her along, i mean i'm not interested in coming to britain atm? 21:36:00 sure thing oklopol! 21:36:11 alright 21:36:35 also bring the £30 you owe me 21:36:44 (interest.) 21:36:53 nah, just steal it 21:36:54 from me 21:36:56 once i'm dead 21:37:12 no, stealing is wrong 21:37:19 xD 21:37:19 oerjan, hi! 21:37:25 hi AnMaster 21:37:31 oklopol: why not do two illegal things before breakfast! 21:37:59 * AnMaster re-reads IWC (it was so many hours ago I read it, I forgot it) 21:38:11 murdering is just illegal, i don't think euthanasia is wrong, although i do think it should be outlawed 21:38:15 oh right, that 21:38:19 well oky 21:38:20 *okay 21:38:22 oerjan, ^ 21:38:27 oklopol: it's rare for someone to think that something isn't wrong but should be illegal 21:38:32 oklopol: why outlaw it if it's wrong? xP 21:38:34 i guess euthanasia can't be used unless you have like cancer, but anyway 21:38:34 ais523: lawl yeah 21:38:40 i like how oklopol equates euthanasia with murder 21:38:45 "I'm saving you from the horrors of nihilism!" 21:39:14 ehird_: naturally i don't think it'd be right to murder you if you didn't ask for it. 21:39:18 also even if you did, i wouldn't believe you 21:39:23 oklopol: but then it's not murder! 21:39:26 AnMaster: this seems a bit ahistorical, isn't the indiana jones theme supposed to be _before_ ww2 21:39:44 but, if i did believe you, and the law couldn't catch me, i probably might murder you. but, that's completely hypothetical. 21:39:59 ehird_: well right, i guess it's not murder. 21:40:01 * ehird_ wonders what to call this http server 21:40:08 and the us didn't start on an atomic bomb until they joined the war, i think 21:40:31 ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval. 21:40:54 still, there's nothing wrong with having done so, if that signature is not a fake, and hasn't been forced. 21:41:09 there's nothing controversial about that, law is not enforced by a god. 21:41:29 oklopol: what you're saying is you think murder is wrong and illegal 21:41:33 also, for the record, i'm not going to murder anyone :P 21:41:33 but consensual killing is neither 21:41:54 but you're warping this to "consensual killing is the same as murder, and murder is okay but should be illegal" 21:41:58 ehird_: consensual killing should be illegal, but it isn't wrong, that i say. 21:42:11 oklopol: ...but why should something that isn't wrong be illegal? 21:42:19 "murder" is never neither, i haven't been talking about murder, even if i've used the term. 21:42:29 ehird_: i already explained that 21:42:38 [21:40] oklopol: ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval. 21:42:39 Murder's never wrong or illegal? 21:42:40 because nothing should be proof enough that it's consensual. 21:42:46 xD 21:42:50 oerjan, hm... not sure 21:42:52 oklopol: but that isn't how it works! 21:42:54 err 21:42:56 :D 21:42:59 oerjan, before or during the first part iirc 21:43:00 murder is both, right 21:43:05 AnMaster: hm, einstein's letter was a month before ww2 started 21:43:07 ehird_: what do you mean? 21:43:21 before that, the americans didn't even have the idea 21:43:22 x_x 21:43:42 oerjan, eh? 21:43:52 ah yes 21:43:53 right 21:44:00 gah lag 21:44:06 hm better now 21:44:07 * ehird_ considers naming this program two-letteredly 21:44:13 and polluting the unix namespace further! 21:44:31 ehird_, I'm sure I would never install any of your apps then :P 21:44:55 how is that not how it works, law is for rules that are useful for keeping the society in order, right and wrong are just ideals, in an imperfect society, they do not mean the same thing 21:45:08 http://st.suckless.org/, http://tools.suckless.org/ii 21:45:10 sux2bu 21:45:16 with perfect information, and perfect enforcement, they can be the same thing 21:45:24 anyway, i hope at least ais523 got my point 21:45:28 oklopol: i guess i understand 21:45:36 but 21:45:42 i think that it's very possible to prove you want to die 21:45:44 oh? you seem to be getting soft, or then i'm getting more intelligent. 21:45:57 i never used to get you to admit anything, even if i mathematically prove you wrong 21:46:03 xD 21:46:03 The program consists of a single window (There are no nested windows, such as in Xpdf) <-- xpdf uses nested windows? 21:46:09 maybe require a court 21:46:12 ehird_: yes, very possible to prove it to me 21:46:14 from http://suckless.org/common/cool_programs 21:46:27 if you can prove to a court that you honestly want to sincerely end your life, then it's legal to be killed 21:46:35 although i think suicide should always be legal, no questions asked 21:46:41 well 21:46:42 it is in the UK i think 21:46:45 just not assisting suicide 21:46:49 which is basically... anything 21:46:57 prolly including saying "well, if that's your choice" 21:47:24 ehird_, angle of viewing is very good on this laptop, I have it 50 degrees or so and it is still pretty much the right colours 21:47:42 AnMaster: heh, people have said it isn't too good on the x200, but the screen is the same 21:47:44 maybe slightly more contrast than right ahead 21:47:51 i don't really mind 21:47:54 well. maybe consensual killing should be legal in some situations, but that's a much more complicated subject, and i don't want to touch it. 21:48:03 however, at around 65 degrees the colours suddenly invert 21:48:04 ehird_, ^ 21:48:05 AnMaster: Yes, xpdf has some sort of document-model thing; you occasionally get a bit wonky focus behaviour in it. 21:48:12 AnMaster: yeah, LCDs do that 21:48:15 not IPS ones though 21:48:19 this IPS screen is the bomb 21:48:28 ehird_, heh 21:48:40 no dead pixels that I notice, basically infinite viewing angle 21:48:43 perfect colours 21:48:48 well, 50 degrees is enough to have laptop in front of desktop monitor 21:48:54 and be able to see both screens completel 21:48:59 completely* 21:49:06 now is the issue with typing still to solve 21:49:09 -!- M0ny has quit. 21:49:16 I would want ONE keyboard + eye tracking to figure out which 21:49:17 hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch 21:49:24 AnMaster: just use sloppy focus 21:49:26 and synergy 21:49:33 hm 21:49:34 (note: sloppy focus != focus-follows mouse) 21:49:37 *follows-mouse 21:49:37 how does that work 21:49:43 ehird_, what is it 21:49:45 well 21:49:45 AnMaster: sloppy focus = keyboard focus follows mouse, but click to raise 21:49:49 I know what syngergy is 21:49:50 Linus Torvalds loves it 21:49:53 but not the sloppy one 21:49:58 and so do a bunch of other unixheads 21:49:58 ehird_, I hate that 21:50:08 I do floppy socks. 21:50:09 but synergy might work 21:50:09 AnMaster: then just use synergy to map keyboard to mouse 21:50:12 for the whole screen 21:50:19 I wonder how to set it up 21:50:20 as in 21:50:25 mouse on computer = kb on computer 21:50:34 you know what would be cool in a synergy-like thing + ehirdOS? 21:50:40 xinerama for the objects, across machines 21:50:43 ehird_, can I use the keyboard of either computer then to control the other 21:50:45 drag the object across, voila! it's migrated 21:50:47 or the mouse of either 21:50:49 including any in-prgoress computation 21:50:54 AnMaster: sure 21:50:58 or does one need to be "the controlling end" 21:51:11 hey, an iPhone advert just came on 21:51:19 talking about all the stuff you can do with copy-and-paste 21:51:24 ha :D 21:51:31 ehird_, basically I have mouse connected to desktop and I want to use either laptop trackball or that mouse to control either computer 21:51:34 to be fair the iphone's copy-and-paste implementation is very elegant 21:51:41 AnMaster: not trackball 21:51:43 trackpoint 21:51:45 how does it work? it looked like double-clicking from the animation 21:51:47 or, well, nipple mouse 21:51:50 err yes 21:51:53 typo 21:52:02 ehird_, oh and, how does synergy + mouse grabbing apps like virtualbox? 21:52:02 ais523: hold across a word/whatever to select, then release 21:52:03 there's now 21:52:06 foo |text| bar 21:52:09 where text is highlighted 21:52:09 I've seen laptops with a trackball, but they aren't common any more 21:52:11 ehird_, or 3D apps 21:52:15 drag each | to change the selection 21:52:16 and above 21:52:20 [ copy | paste ] 21:52:21 pretty much 21:52:21 ehird_, since I'm using such atm 21:52:25 you can also eg press backspace then 21:52:32 ais523: another way is 21:52:36 hold down to bring up the focusing thingy 21:52:39 then mouse over the word 21:52:41 and it selects it 21:52:45 ehird_, even cooler idea: drag windows between computers as you wanted 21:52:45 I'm not quite sure whether synergy supports that sort of configuration; the docs are all "Run the server on the computer that has the keyboard and mouse to be shared." 21:52:51 AnMaster: uhh, that's what I said 21:52:53 ehirdOS 21:52:54 except with objects 21:52:55 automatically X fowarding 21:52:57 and it'd migrate the computation too 21:52:58 noo 21:52:58 as needed 21:53:01 it'd actually move computer 21:53:10 ehird_, said where? 21:53:15 above 21:53:17 anyway, as i was saying, [21:49] ehird_: hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch 21:53:18 oh right 21:53:19 because 21:53:20 missed that 21:53:24 servers expect you to say 'GET / HTTP/1.1' 21:53:31 and barf on, e.g. 'GET / HTTP/2.0' 21:53:43 let alone 'GET / HTTP/saner' 21:53:48 there is HTTP/2.0 iirc? 21:53:53 so you have to mandate saying 'HTTP/1.1' in your spec 21:54:02 AnMaster: no 21:54:07 anyway it was just an example 21:54:13 huh, maybe I misremember then 21:54:27 Apache doesn't mind "GET / HTTP/2.0\nHost: ...", it just replies with HTTP/1.1 200 OK. Other servers might mind, though. 21:54:43 ehird_, anyway, how does synergy + input grabbing apps work? 21:54:47 I bet there might be issues 21:54:54 % nc www.google.co.uk 80 21:54:54 GET / HTTP/2.0 21:54:54 Host: www.google.co.uk 21:54:54 HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request 21:54:59 AnMaster: erm, that's the whole point of synergy. 21:55:12 AnMaster: At least synergy with a full-screen game (with a mouse-grabbing scroll-at-screen-border thing) has worked fine. 21:55:12 ehird_, hm? 21:55:23 fizzie, cool 21:55:33 then virtualbox should not be an issue 21:55:54 Apache even accepts that "GET / HTTP/sane". That's one helpful server. 21:56:18 ehird_, an issue with the "move between computers" thingy is when the app is a 3D one... 21:56:28 again, migrate the actual object 21:56:36 computation being sluggish? drag it to your server. 21:56:51 brb 21:57:23 ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed 21:57:30 as an example 21:57:38 I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever. 21:58:20 fizzie, :D 21:58:30 that almost sounded like sarcasm 21:58:39 Synergy has two rather funny "avoid accidental flips" things; switchDelay and switchDoubleTap. The first is your normal "has to stay at the border for N milliseconds", but the second one is more curious; you have to hit the border twice (move to edge, move away, move back) within the specified time in order to get to the other screen. 21:58:48 oklopol, "almost"? 21:59:01 fizzie: are you on your period or something? i mean that's kinda not like you. 21:59:26 fizzie, the latter sounds silly 21:59:29 and one of your things is sticking to your ways 21:59:30 anyway 21:59:33 where is the border 21:59:36 oklopol: Must've been some cosmic radiation flipping a sarcasm bit. 21:59:36 so it confuses me when you do that! 21:59:54 can you describe a 3D situation that may change 21:59:55 like 22:00:04 sarcastic logic: 4-valued logic with just 2 symbols 22:00:50 or should that be sarcasm logic 22:00:54 laptop is standing besides desktop monitor, laptop screen top ends at about 2/5 of the desktop screen side 22:00:59 and it starts below the desktop screen 22:01:01 fizzie, ^ 22:01:14 also it is standing at an angle 22:01:18 and a bit in front 22:01:41 also that sarcasm joke was probably the best boolean algebra joke i've ever heard 22:02:40 AnMaster: You can specify arbitrary ranges of borders that are linked to equally arbitrary ranges of borders on other screens. I'm not quite sure how you'd want it to take into account the angle, though, since it's not like you can displace the cursor out from the monitor plane. 22:03:04 And dynamic changes in the configuration might be a bit iffy, haven't tried that. 22:03:05 fizzie, sure you can, if you use compiz 22:03:18 it should just be a matter of some 3D cube thingy animation bling-bling 22:03:29 or whatever 22:03:35 Right, well, it doesn't do that. 22:03:48 fizzie, good thing, since I don't use compiz 22:03:49 :P 22:03:59 (compiz fucks up with 3D in virtualbox) 22:04:28 fizzie, anyway. how does one get started with it 22:04:37 one computer use a static xorg.conf, no hal crap 22:04:42 * oerjan wishes the rss feed for the esolang forum included comments 22:04:44 the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu 22:04:49 But you can tell it that if the mouse enters the short bit from 33% to 42% in the left border of the laptop screen, it enters from the range 22% to 77% from top of the desktop, if you want. 22:04:58 oerjan, we have a forum? 22:05:10 *blink* 22:05:18 where? 22:05:22 yes. not much used though. 22:05:27 oerjan, WHERE? 22:05:43 I use synergy so rarely that I just wrote a synergy.conf on the computer with the mouse and keyboard, and start that manually when I need it. I assume it's been packetized everywhere. 22:05:45 same host as the wiki. 22:06:00 look at the root page 22:06:01 fizzie, I want either computer's input device to be able to control that of the other 22:06:09 Yes, like I said, I'm not sure it supports that. 22:06:11 ehird_ said it could be done 22:06:16 iirc 22:07:08 Well, I don't know how it's done with synergy, if it can be done. 22:07:30 "The first step is to pick which keyboard and mouse you want to share. The computer with that keyboard and mouse is called the "primary screen" and it runs the synergy server. All of the other computers are "secondary screens" and run the synergy client." 22:07:34 ehird_, ^ you lied 22:08:32 AnMaster: anyway there was a new post today, which i answered, and then i realized rss won't tell me if there are further responses. 22:09:48 the all threads page show latest post dates, though 22:12:03 *shows 22:12:05 For some reason post #3 of the "Esoteric Programming" thread looks like it would belong to someone on #esoteric. 22:12:38 btw, I hate forums 22:12:39 it's rather spamful 22:12:41 much prefer irc 22:12:49 fizzie: link 22:12:49 oerjan, no moderators? 22:12:50 (#3 that is) 22:13:10 oklopol: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50 22:13:48 AnMaster: it's not exactly a big problem 22:14:05 it was more trolling than spam that one, i think 22:14:28 wow, I forgot the esoforum existed 22:15:16 easy to do, thus i subscribed to the rss 22:15:35 ok post three's style sound familiar 22:15:37 indeed 22:15:41 * AnMaster looks around 22:15:58 ehird? 22:16:24 Slereah_ once printed a massive ascii pic iirc 22:16:37 oklopol, the newlines there seem more ehird_'s style 22:16:46 though I agree acii art isn't 22:16:48 agreed 22:17:22 ehird_ usually paste spams only relevant data, although not always relevant enough to be paste spammed 22:17:55 oklopol, look at the date 22:18:01 ehird_, was different a few years ago 22:18:02 but i'm a spammer 22:18:10 3 Name: Anonymous : 2007-10-19 02:13 ID:uedzKvu7 22:18:11 just not here, that often 22:18:32 but I agree. it isn't his style to do ascii art spam 22:18:54 ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font 22:19:02 "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either 22:19:13 i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid 22:19:19 oklopol, yes 22:19:49 the "\nAlso " is his style though 22:19:57 should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material? 22:20:20 oklopol, not until you got the final marks in that course! 22:20:26 then: yes 22:20:46 this is pretty exact science 22:20:49 and i don't make mistakes 22:20:54 should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material? <-- also, "send along"? Didn't you mean "send a long"? 22:20:58 and the feedback is usually positive 22:21:06 *a long, yes 22:21:07 oklopol, decide yourself 22:21:17 i tend to make a lot of mistakes 22:21:20 you see 22:21:29 oklopol, you mean "alot of"? 22:21:43 ;P 22:21:58 i don't need to, because i only do one joke per message :) 22:23:00 -!- ehird_ has quit. 22:36:37 fizzie, synergy seems to work well for one host controlling the rest 22:36:44 the multi-direction? nop 22:37:02 fizzie, can't find the "2/3rd" thingy 22:42:11 -!- ehird has joined. 22:42:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:42:41 -!- ehird has joined. 22:42:42 oops 22:43:11 13:57:23 ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed 22:43:12 13:57:30 as an example 22:43:12 13:57:38 I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever. 22:43:12 yes, actually. 22:43:23 if by clever you mean has a non-shitty design. 22:43:35 ehird, still synergy is one-way only... 22:43:40 so it doesn't really cut it 22:43:40 oh well. 22:44:20 14:04:44 the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu 22:44:20 a feast of crap 22:44:25 but err, non-duplicated configuration is crap? 22:44:31 linux users are...... stupid 22:44:37 ehird, hal will be dropped 22:44:40 yes 22:44:42 in next ubuntu 22:44:43 but the basic concept is fine 22:44:47 hopefully for something better 22:44:49 AnMaster: it's being replaced by its linux replacement 22:44:54 which is basically the same but better 22:45:01 ehird, in kernel? 22:45:05 yes 22:45:08 if so there are some config issues 22:45:10 hal is being replaced 22:45:26 DeviceKit 22:45:26 ehird, I mean, how do you configure joystick X11 driver for example 22:45:33 with the new system 22:45:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviceKit 22:45:37 Fedora 11 includes it 22:47:17 14:04:58 oerjan, we have a forum? 22:47:18 14:05:10 *blink* 22:47:18 14:05:18 where? 22:47:18 http://esolangs.org/forum/ 22:47:25 the nice, anonymous kind too 22:47:29 although most posters don't seem to realise that 22:47:52 ehird, can you stop doing the log reading more than once / day please ;P 22:48:00 no, fu 22:48:11 14:07:34 ehird_, ^ you lied 22:48:11 "lied" 22:48:31 ehird, you seemed to indicate you were completely sure 22:48:37 no i did not 22:48:43 yes you did 22:48:44 bbl 22:48:49 14:14:05 it was more trolling than spam that one, i think 22:48:59 hax my anus. 22:49:11 (not me) 22:49:37 you, you /prog/lodytes. 22:50:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:51:06 14:18:54 ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font 22:51:06 actually, no 22:51:19 you just need the right font. 22:51:31 ehird, which font? 22:51:36 MS PGothic, or for X11, Mona 22:51:39 and how do you know that 22:51:40 it's Shift_JIS art 22:51:44 hm 22:51:52 ehird, how did you figure that out 22:51:53 AnMaster: because I know a lot about the 2channel/world4ch culture 22:52:04 also, Mona was specifically created to have the same metrics as MS PGothic 22:52:08 ehird, sure you didn't post it? 22:52:10 for Shift_JIS art 22:52:12 AnMaster: yes. 22:52:12 ;P 22:52:14 kay 22:52:58 anyway no point worrying about authorship, it's anonymous for a reason 22:53:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:54:58 ehird, what reason? ;P 22:54:59 14:19:02 "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either 22:54:59 14:19:13 i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid 22:54:59 no, I like that quote 22:55:00 *ducks* 22:55:09 14:19:49 the "\nAlso " is his style though 22:55:10 no, that's meme's style 22:55:24 AnMaster: read http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/ 22:55:35 if you say tl;dr, I will stab you and force you to never read anything again 22:56:40 * oerjan thinks ehird must be getting a long list of people to stab 22:56:46 people are idiots. 22:58:00 14:20:49 and i don't make mistakes 22:58:01 14:21:17 i tend to make a lot of mistakes 22:58:01 :D 22:58:10 oerjan, see /msg 22:58:23 ...? 22:58:46 * ehird wonders what on earth AnMaster wants to say to oerjan that's so secret and important 22:59:39 telling people to see /msg in-channel doesn't really work, they might not notice 22:59:43 do it in a /msg to make sure they see it 23:00:02 ais523, except I don't normally notice /msg unless someone mentions it in channel 23:00:05 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 23:00:14 oerjan: tell us what he said! 23:00:15 :P 23:00:17 AnMaster: set your client up to let you know when someone /msgs you, though 23:00:23 it leaves a red tab and a flashing icon for me 23:00:27 ehird, oh it was a password for a website. Nothing important 23:00:40 ehird: no, I like that quote <<< okay, but i'm sure you could've hated it 23:00:46 i share my password aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the time 23:00:50 ais523, issue: channel list is longer than fits on screen 23:00:53 my irssi splits the window automatically on a msg 23:01:05 pretty hard not to notice 23:01:11 ehird, no as in "bugmenot" kind of share 23:01:13 :P 23:01:25 ais523, even freenode alone is longer than fits on screen 23:01:36 AnMaster: then make the channel tabs smaller 23:01:39 ah right to kinkyesotericporn.com, where they fuck brains and ejaculate underloads 23:01:42 that was my solution to that problem 23:01:45 (↑ man that was a terrible joke) 23:01:51 ais523: he has 500 tabs. 23:01:53 well, over 23:01:56 ais523, they are in a tightly packed list at 6 points font 23:01:57 over 500 channels + consoles + talks 23:02:14 ais523: don't try and tell him to leave the ones he doesn't talk in or look at, he won't understand you 23:02:22 ehird, over 500 channels alone 23:02:23 he speaks in a language almost entirely like english apart from that 23:02:30 consoles? around 30-40 tabs 23:02:31 AnMaster: you parsed it wrong. 23:02:38 heh, he's still in #feather-lang 23:02:54 ais523, yes I'm waiting for you 23:03:07 I'll go in there if there's progress 23:03:11 but I'll let #esoteric know at the same time 23:03:27 * oklopol (n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #feather-lang 23:03:29 ACTIVITY! 23:03:46 yes, big news, i join every channel i see, and part them when my client crashes :) 23:04:15 oklopol, what about # 23:04:19 yes it exists 23:04:31 as in 23:04:33 just a # 23:04:36 nothing after 23:04:55 ais523, wow you missed lots of action in #feather-lang 23:05:05 meh 23:05:45 any /interesting/ action? 23:05:51 some 23:05:55 no 23:05:56 none 23:05:57 was it Feather-related? 23:06:05 well 23:06:08 before ehird joined 23:06:11 and what ehird said 23:06:32 ais523, see /msg 23:06:34 for the log 23:06:38 so, no then 23:06:46 and I saw your msg before you told me, and it was obviously a log 23:07:04 AnMaster: oklopol, what about # <<< can't join it by clicking, and it doesn't look like a channel to me, so i usually wouldn't 23:07:12 i did now, though 23:07:13 also 23:07:17 when oerjan said #3 earlier, i joined it 23:07:35 oklopol, try /join #3,000 23:07:39 (don't!) 23:07:56 silly you 23:08:04 think i don't know that 23:08:04 oklopol, you know the effect? right 23:08:19 oklopol, I half *hoped* you wouldn't 23:08:21 however 23:08:24 I saw it work once 23:08:38 except then the , was some odd similar looking unicode symbol 23:08:47 on a network allowing unicode in channel names 23:09:21 ais523, know a good news client for linux? 23:09:25 graphical preferred 23:09:32 i've seen it work too 23:09:39 nc in a terminal 23:09:41 AnMaster: no, although I've heard Thunderbird is decent 23:09:44 tried knode, doesn't work well 23:09:47 Oh, you asked for "good". 23:09:49 but as usual, i've read about it. 23:09:53 can't recommend it as I haven't used it myself 23:10:10 also this is news = usenet, not news = some silly rss feed or such 23:10:15 yes, as in usenet 23:10:30 ais523, should be able to handle binary channels too btw 23:10:42 reasonably 23:11:20 (as in, be able to handle yydecode and "split over several messages" well) 23:12:30 it also needs ipv6 support 23:12:38 why: because I use a news server that is ipv6 only 23:12:55 isn't IPvN support an OS issue, not a client issue? 23:13:00 ais523, both 23:13:09 ais523, different socket types 23:13:22 and different struct sizes 23:13:25 to store the ip and such 23:23:16 I've used Thunderbird for NNTP, it works quite well actually. 23:25:28 I've used Pan, and it works reasonably well. 23:25:32 http://pan.rebelbase.com/ 23:25:48 Though I've also used Thunderbird, and it wasn't too awful either. 23:25:58 Still, Pan's news-only, so they do some things better. 23:26:04 Now, the sleep. 23:33:03 tight. 23:37:51 I use thunderbird for mail+news+RSS 23:38:01 As an all-in-one, it's pretty sweet. 23:40:17 http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2008/04/open-source-group-announces-jjava.html 23:40:21 http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50 <<< i find #7 a lot more annoying than #3 23:40:40 For "busy Java programmers" that "don't have time to learn a new syntax". 23:41:32 ... Yes, because the *syntax* is the hard thing to learn about a new language... 23:41:44 Ah. April 1st. 23:41:46 Good work. 23:42:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:49:55 someone ported Java to the JVM? 23:50:51 ais523: Took them long enough. 23:52:39 -!- ehird has quit. 23:52:49 -!- ehird has joined. 23:55:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).