< 1252195206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^add a .; I typed it but my client stripped it < 1252195212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or something) < 1252195221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "strang."? < 1252195223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange. < 1252195226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252195236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, two chars stripped for me and fizzie, remember that < 1252195243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seriously fix that bug in your client < 1252195245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not me, it's my client < 1252195245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's annoying < 1252195262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: KeyMaker missed a spam page today: Talk:Main Page/index.php < 1252195276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the T43's battery life isn't all that good; 5 hours 23 minutes < 1252195286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that sound good to me? < 1252195290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sounds < 1252195296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: looking now < 1252195299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, not really; I'm looking for 6 hours, minimum. < 1252195307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The X200 gets up to 9 hours. < 1252195308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and since you won't use cd probably just get an ultrabay battery as well < 1252195314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deleted < 1252195317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that both can't charge at once < 1252195318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do that? The T43 is from 2005. < 1252195331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still has IBM on it. < 1252195347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh that guy I met at uni with the 9 cell battery had an ultrabay too, said he got close to 14 hours or something like that < 1252195360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much did he get without? I guess it was X-series. < 1252195373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the ultrabay battery is presumably heavier than the optical drive, no? < 1252195379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, didn't look like that X series pic you showed me < 1252195384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the slab look at all < 1252195396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a new X-series. < 1252195396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather more like mine, and as I said, it was IBM era < 1252195422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, since you can choose different WiFi cards and stuff, I suppose I could replace it with a draft-n one. < 1252195429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I replace the HD with an SSD < 1252195430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and I didn't ask about it without ultrabay < 1252195449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not sure you can get at the wifi card easily < 1252195452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, the T42 was lighter and faster than the T43... but at expense of battery < 1252195479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and why pre-N? < 1252195483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speed. < 1252195490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... how fast is your internet connection? < 1252195499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that this WiFi is slow. < 1252195508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :200kiB/s vs 800kiB/s. < 1252195513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how many bars or whatever do you get there? < 1252195519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, that is probably latency < 1252195519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full, or near it. < 1252195523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could just be a shitty antenna. < 1252195533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid to consider things older than T60, anyway; they're all single-core Pentium M affairs. < 1252195539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like it'd be upsettingly slow. < 1252195551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh and what speed is it? On AP I mean < 1252195557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1252195580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 11a, 11b or 11g, or even pre-n? < 1252195584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the AP < 1252195593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, uh, the one before n. < 1252195598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g? < 1252195598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a shitty ISP-provided "Livebox". < 1252195599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1252195605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:300 ;; want! < 1252195643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no mouse input at all? < 1252195651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares? It probably runs DOS < 1252195654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well then I bet the issue is either latency or crappy AP < 1252195668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The AP is across the room. < 1252195671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it is latency. < 1252195682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, latency is always larger than for ethernet IME < 1252195702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well 200kiB/s just isn't acceptable; I can get 800kiB/s, dammit, and I want to use a good portion of that. < 1252195702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, especially if AP doesn't support short preamble < 1252195716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I bet you will need to replace your AP then < 1252195734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one of those Linuxable blue/green Linksys routers with the sticky-up antennae. < 1252195752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also a similarly-styled Linksys ADSL modem; just a question of linking those together sometime. < 1252195762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, because pre-N isn't going to be any better than g at 200 vs 800 < 1252195772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely it speeds up the non-internet stuff, though? < 1252195775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the overhead. < 1252195775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since 11g should manage 800 kbps without issue < 1252195790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well it speeds up LAN yes < 1252195800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least capacity < 1252195805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about latency < 1252195807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could get very large antennae for the Linksys AP. < 1252195814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can buy gigantic ones. < 1252195823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, doubt it would help < 1252195827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I get ads for gigantic ones every day in my inbox. < 1252195834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1252195841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1252195846 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252195851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why aren't there houses with antennae in the walls, I wonder? < 1252195859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway latency will always be higher with wlan than switched ethernet. Always < 1252195864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, with a 802.11g AP in the same room you indeed should get reasonable speeds; it goes theoretically up to 54 Mbps == 6.75 MB/s. < 1252195875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably also true for routered ethernet < 1252195988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1252196025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is switched ethernet, like, direct computer-to-computer? < 1252196107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, switching's like networking without any intelligence in the routers < 1252196115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead, the computers at each end have to work out the routes for themselves < 1252196119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't scale < 1252196124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1252196136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works well for things like relatively small company networks, though < 1252196141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252196160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's quite a bit of intelligence in a modern switch, though; for things like sensible multicast forwarding only to listening ports and such. < 1252196163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like it'd be less of a pain to just buy an AP < 1252196167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1252196168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a router < 1252196190 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The student housing network (which I assume had few thousand hosts) used to be a single gigantic Ethernet segment, and it worked reasonably well. < 1252196201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except when people misconfigured things.) < 1252196205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *shrug* anyway latency will always be less with ethernet. A lot less if AP doesn't support short preambles < 1252196205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a ton of wasted CPU time :P < 1252196216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *a lot more < 1252196228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yeah < 1252196229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as part of my final-year project, I had to design a hardware implementation of a networking switch < 1252196240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err no < 1252196249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nothing quite as complex as ethernet, though, just simple packets made up of address and data) < 1252196252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1252196253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252196260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ethernet will have a LOT less latency if AP doesn't support short preamble < 1252196263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays it's about "one network segment per 50 apartments" and DHCP. < 1252196263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252196263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so less is correct there < 1252196269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I managed to make it work for arbitrary sizes despite VHDL's amazingly annoying lack of recursion < 1252196298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silicon recursion: proving space is continuous since 2010 < 1252196309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it bottomed out, and it's unrolled by the compiler < 1252196311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The circuit keeps getting smaller! < 1252196314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Shush you :P < 1252196328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, it's quite difficult to design the code so that the code doesn't get bigger when the number of inputs does < 1252196363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was ridiculous, I had one array which held all the temp vars, and lots of polynomials to index it < 1252196371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of those "broadband routers" have been made with the assumption that Internet access is slow, which means that if you plug a direct 100M/100M Internet connection in the "WAN" port, and then connect a computer with 100M Ethernet directly to the "router" (I hesitate to call them that), it's unable to transfer full-speed, since it's built on some really crappy general-purpose-CPU embedded platform and runs some equally silly software on it. < 1252196374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it reminded me a lot of esoprogramming, in fact) < 1252196401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was a often-noticed thing in the student networking newsgroup. < 1252196417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well for me the wan port looks like a special modem port < 1252196420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: heh, I see the reasoning there < 1252196421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I have ADSL < 1252196429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only real routers are pentium 3 boxes. < 1252196430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUR HUR < 1252196442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, IDGI < 1252196465 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, for routers that include an ADSL modem, it sort-of makes sense to make some assumptions about the maximum speed. < 1252196466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bunch of people use old computers as routers because, you know, who cares about noise, space or power consumption, let's be cool and use this as a router. < 1252196530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, it seems that Amazon has old ThinkPads, although unfortunately at low CPU speeds. < 1252196534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are WLAN dealies with "single Ethernet interface for an external internet, like a separate ADSL box, and then a four-port switch for the LAN" and still design the hardware so that it can't route and NAT packets from LAN to WAN at full speed. < 1252196558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and a wlan ap in all that; that's why I said "WLAN dealies". < 1252196574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously, I won't survive on a single-core Pentium M, will I? < 1252196624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I probably would, but somehow I suspect you wouldn't < 1252196707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm basically comfortable with this early-model 2.16ghz Core 2 Duo and 2.5GB of RAM, but I'll be putting an SSD in the notebook, so that gives it quite a performance advantage. Still, single-core is kind of bad. < 1252196708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how did you manage 5 years ago? < 1252196728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five years ago I was only starting to program shitty PHP craps, and my system had so much crap on it I don't even know. < 1252196735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it crashed So. Much. < 1252196745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and it ran windows? < 1252196748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP. < 1252196757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was that frankenstein a-bit-here-a-bit-there cobbled PC that existed in so many various configurations since 1998. < 1252196760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well XP is quite stable for being windows < 1252196777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only way I can describe that machine is a constant war between crappy hardware. < 1252196780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And man, it was so loud. < 1252196788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still have it? < 1252196788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I slept a meter away from it, and it took me ages to adjust. < 1252196790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIR < 1252196794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And speaking of old computers as a router, I admit I'm one of those people. < 1252196795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a loud, deep noise. < 1252196801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you didn't shut it down at night? < 1252196814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because starting it up took about three to five minutes. < 1252196818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except that I did put the Atom box in to work as the router to eat a bit less electricity.) < 1252196822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, suspend to disk? < 1252196832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whoa! Too advanced to work. < 1252196837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh? < 1252196844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that did not work. < 1252196848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The case, optical drives and disks survive today < 1252196853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1252196862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But everything else was replaced recently. It is serving as my mother's computer < 1252196863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mobo and cpu? < 1252196866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252196877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, dd cleaned the disks? < 1252196878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's now an AMD Athlon X2 thing. Still quite noisy. < 1252196887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not same ones? < 1252196889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The 80GB is still an installation of Windows since at least 2006. < 1252196898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 500GB, which is the one that is used, is Ubuntu 9.04. < 1252196921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She used the 80GB until late last year, when I installed Ubuntu, and it's been about 10x less sluggish ever since. < 1252196938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from at least < 1252196948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that particular one probably dated back to 2005. < 1252196979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I haven't really "coped" with any computer before this one. < 1252196992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, different room helps < 1252197000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeeeeeeeeeno. < 1252197024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure does. My desktop is noisy. Couldn't sleep in same room < 1252197030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean the bed < 1252197034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252197045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This computer makes a barely audible hum, but I'm sensitive enough that I still put it to sleep. < 1252197061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it clicks a bit when the disk is working. < 1252197066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have above normal hearing too so... yeah < 1252197073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's something like 23dBA. < 1252197078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :measured by silentpcreview about that < 1252197084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zalman tnn... would be so cool < 1252197090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly performance... < 1252197093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And around 20dBA thinks become completely inaudible < 1252197099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, it can handle a quad-core CPU < 1252197103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1252197107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not a good graphics card with it < 1252197114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I would want that < 1252197121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So use a dual-core CPU < 1252197130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah would be enough < 1252197132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the current TNN sold is an (iirc, less beefy) Mini-ATX variant; you'd have to get it from a retailer that has some stockpiled. < 1252197143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1252197144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You wouldn't be able to get _high_ end. < 1252197192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually, I'd just get http://helmer3.sfe.se/ and place it on another floor. Wait... Make that "another building" even < 1252197201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the max you could get would be 9600 GT + 2.6GHz dual-core < 1252197203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next to the power station < 1252197209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ SSD < 1252197216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't a powerhouse by any measure, but the SSD should make it very snappy. < 1252197221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also, you know, more silent. < 1252197292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But, er, "The completely fanless case, power supply and heatpipe-based cooling system was massive, heavy, and very expensive, well over US$1,000." < 1252197314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Introduced 2003; that sentence is from a "background" section of an early 2006 review of a pre-assembled computer based on it. < 1252197315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah I was thinking about the heat < 1252197324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Think about the damn price! < 1252197344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you know radiation. It would be like having a dual screen laptop right on your lap when standing a few meters away! < 1252197349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TNN-500AF + X25-M is already nearing $2,000 < 1252197379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add the rest of the computer components, totalling say around $700 < 1252197391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that makes $2,700 for a mid-end system < 1252197396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, better since it's SSD, but < 1252197427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, er, http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/epcn-tnn500/epcn1.jpg < 1252197438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah? < 1252197442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, those wheels are needed; it's something like 30kg. < 1252197444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool design < 1252197454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't touch it! < 1252197455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, great. Hard to steal < 1252197467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a TNN notebook! < 1252197475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1252197479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bonus: Sell it as a cheap method of birth control < 1252197493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay. Not cheap. < 1252197739 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252198417 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252198910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flought < 1252199408 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252199851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://porg.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/unicodedata-520d2txt.mp3 Unicode makes passable chiptune noise music (warning: loud). < 1252199875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that mp3 that's also valid unicode? < 1252199889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's `lame -r -m m -s 16 --bitwidth 8 ~/Downloads/UnicodeData-5.2.0d2.txt` where that file is http://unicode.org/Public/5.2.0/ucd/UnicodeData-5.2.0d12.txt. < 1252199892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From http://porg.es/blog/what-unicode-sounds-like. < 1252199896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It actually sounds good. < 1252199905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I legitimately like it, musically. < 1252200102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I just had the ridiculous idea of writing a brainfuck misinterpreter < 1252200112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it reads in a BF program, then runs it incorrectly < 1252200122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is indeed ridiculous. forget it quickly < 1252200137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably will < 1252200153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... although I still think Befunge2K is an interesting idea < 1252200165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(befunge, all commands have a constant chance of being no-ops rather than doing what they should do) < 1252200174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's possible to write a program that's 100% guaranteed to work? < 1252200192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also: should # and ; be affected? they aren't really commands...) < 1252200266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible < 1252200269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every command could fail < 1252200344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you could set it up so that it's in an infinite loop until the commands start working, though < 1252200358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, if going vertically, _ has a different failure behaviour to success behaviour, entirely < 1252200374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say you arranged it so that the TOS was 0 unless the previous command had run correctly... < 1252200376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probability, though < 1252200380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get fails, all the time < 1252200381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forever < 1252200383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it has p=0 < 1252200391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that's still 100% guaranteed to work < 1252200398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1252200403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100*(1-0) = 100 < 1252200418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something has p=1 of working, it's 100% likely to work < 1252200418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure, it is certain to happen, it's just that it's perfectly possible not to < 1252200553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110 < 1252200561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too silly! < 1252200778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, I like how people are claiming that IBM wanted the PC to be cloneable < 1252200793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being that that's, you know, the opposite of reality < 1252200800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they desperately wanted a monopoly < 1252201229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why was the IBM PC so clonable, as opposed to other machines? < 1252201239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't. < 1252201246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from being quite off-the-shelf < 1252201259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but heck, the IBM PC *sucked* < 1252201296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the Apple Lisa came out two years later and was massively better, albeit more expensive < 1252201302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next year the Macintosh, which was like half the price < 1252201311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas the PC was, uhh, sucking. < 1252202337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE. < 1252202338 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252202362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram How many people are < 1252202368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a good question, < 1252202371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION so should you
< 1252202372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, < 1252202382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: ping < 1252202383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo butt < 1252202385 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt < 1252202385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh echo butt < 1252202386 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1252202387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1252202387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1252202388 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1252202392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram fuck < 1252202395 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many people are \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ all countries \ Summary: \ \ population \ \ total highest lowest \ \ 6.68 billion people 1.31 billion people China 48 people Pitcairn Islands \ 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 estimates \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on September 5, 2009 from Champaign, < 1252202399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1252202401 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ fuck English word \ Definitions: \ \ fuck \ \ slang for sexual intercourse \ \ Word origins: \ \ Old English Middle English Classical Latin first recorded use: 1916 93 years ago \ Pronunciation: \ \ f \ \ k \ \ f' uhk \ \ Synonyms: \ \ fuck \ \ nookie shtup \ \ nooky \ \ piece of < 1252202408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.68 billion people are. < 1252202417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also, nookie shtup. < 1252202418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success! < 1252202432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees no nookie
< 1252202438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1252202553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram Scientology < 1252202560 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientology \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Scientology English word \ Definition: \ \ Scientology \ \ a new religion founded by L. Ron Hubbard in 1955 and characterized by a belief in the power of a person' s spirit to clear itself of past painful experiences through self knowledge and spiritual fulfillment \ \ Word origins: < 1252202560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1252202565 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Wolfram I love you < 1252202566 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1252202575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also aliens < 1252202582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram sexual intercourse < 1252202590 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexual intercourse \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ sexual intercourse English phrase \ Definition: \ \ sexual intercourse \ \ the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man' s penis is inserted into the woman' s vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur \ \ Synonyms: \ \ sexual intercourse < 1252202601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So THAT'S why you have to be 18! < 1252202603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram infinity squared < 1252202604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's practically erotica. < 1252202608 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity squared \ \ Input: \ 2 \ \ Result: \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on September 5, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \  < 1252202617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's useless... < 1252202632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: HackEgo's Wolfram Alpha interface is the only thing in the universe more buggy than Wolfram Alpha itself < 1252202637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: HackEgo's Wolfram Alpha interface is the only thing in the universe more buggy than Wolfram Alpha < 1252202639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reads better that way) < 1252202646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=infinity%5E2 < 1252202650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result = sideways 8 < 1252202669 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does HackEgo screen scrape, or does W|A provide an API? < 1252202674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scraping < 1252202678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It screen scrapes the PDF. < 1252202678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to pay for the API < 1252202682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes: a PDF. < 1252202701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic < 1252202705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be better to scrape the Mathematica notebook, but < 1252202707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1252202748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does Mathematica have a button to turn a notebook into code? < 1252202758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the .nb
< 1252202759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yow! < 1252202766 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the code's embedded in there somehow < 1252202783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains base-64, presumably images < 1252202786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a shitload of boxes < 1252202899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who came up with the term "screen scraping"? It's not like a screen scraping tool is taking a screenshot and interpreting it < 1252203394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo violates W|A's terms of use < 1252203417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, nobody gives a shit < 1252203419 0 :calamari!n=calamari@70.162.187.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252203421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I violate it by being under 18. < 1252203486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i violate it just out of solidarity < 1252204145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Advantage of ball mice: move more smoothly. Gah this mouse+pad. < 1252204164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought ball mice got less smooth, when they were dirty < 1252204165 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252204752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, no doubt < 1252204756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that beats scratchiness < 1252204769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't say felt pads; that's just like mud for a laser mouse < 1252204779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm not sure why we obsoleted ball mice < 1252204783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i guess cleaning < 1252204783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1252204787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they were clean they worked perfectly < 1252204805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there are any bluetooth ball mice... < 1252204879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time I look at a trackball I cringe < 1252204887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just reminds me of popping your thumb out of its socket... < 1252205020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*optical mouse; I'm not using a laser mouse atm < 1252205269 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252205292 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1252205374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next: the aureal mouse < 1252205417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*aural < 1252205534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, apparently the T42 had good battery life < 1252205550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to be travelling further and further back in the ThinkPad line, and am scared at the performance it will lead me to... < 1252206655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why Psychologists Are Infinitely More Dangerous Than Conspiracy Theorists" from infowars.com. < 1252206663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much textbook crazy concentrated in one place. < 1252206679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They want to destrooooooy your mind! Obamacare is eugenics NWO 9/11! < 1252207017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes Twitter was decentralized. I think I've said that before, and someone mentioned identi.ca
< 1252207320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identi.ca is not decentralised. < 1252207324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, nobody gives a shit. < 1252207335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if twitter went down, nothing much would be lost; it is inherently transient < 1252207341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seriously, distributed this, distributed that < 1252207344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly pointless. < 1252207454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distribution using pointless topology < 1252208258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know a way to scan for a given process being started? < 1252208271 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably without ptracing the invoker < 1252208285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while sleep 1; do pgrep < 1252208289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you don't need it accurately, you could poll < 1252208308 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to figure out a command line being invoked < 1252208315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep can print at ree. < 1252208317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a tree < 1252208473 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augh, pgrep is annoying, but it should work < 1252208482 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate piping in to read < 1252208748 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1252208816 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252209747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252210715 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252211112 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252212008 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realizes that he can malloc from Python, kind of
< 1252212030 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not? < 1252212035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why would you need to? < 1252212044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for fun? Being silly? < 1252212050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1252212058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you'd mean by that, though < 1252212113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc for malice < 1252212166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? ??2@YAPAXI@Z < 1252212168 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF is ??2@YAPAXI@Z < 1252212908 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252215897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view < 1252215908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and knowing the FSF, the content isn't much better either < 1252215956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just realized it? < 1252216009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: first I've seen the page < 1252216021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't actually read much of the content, I'm just guessing it's bad < 1252216027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graphic design is obvious, though < 1252216029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1252216037 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant you'd been there several times and just realized < 1252216042 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the real reason open source isn't really taking off is that the FSF is so awful at marketing) < 1252216105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( stallman < 1252218725 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t clean Ubuntu install is nice :) < 1252218742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should seriously consider doing this every 6 months, rather than upgrading < 1252220302 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1252223695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1252223999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1252224000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1252225366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1252225743 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-095-208-140-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252225868 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@r01snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1252226560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1252226582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252227173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1252227178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1252227184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... almost 9am < 1252227191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shops will be opening so I can buy breakfast < 1252227212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, been up all night? < 1252227212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to do http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090906 with only two Google searches; should I be worried or something? < 1252227215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252227233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you read uf too? < 1252227242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so that you remember uf had such a crossword) < 1252227255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it is for today < 1252227267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant "googled to find the crossword" < 1252227269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1252227279 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I meant I managed to fill it in :-P < 1252227298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way they avoided 4e references < 1252227316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? < 1252227316 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's even an error in it; it says "twenty-sided solid" where it means "twelve-sided solid" < 1252227338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I couldn't manage it, since I never played D&D < 1252227341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the crossword stops at third edition, which is probably a wise choice < 1252227357 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because fourth edition is a more or less completely different game, just with the same name for marketing purposes < 1252227362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a vaguely similar theme < 1252227414 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252227449 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1252227450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view <-- um yeah that the frame scrolls sideways makes it look terrible for a start < 1252227465 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252227469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it then doesn't use said frame all the way... < 1252227487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even get why it does the start of a page in a frame, then leaves it for the rest of the page < 1252227501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1252227532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea how to connect to internet using your phone in ubuntu? < 1252227541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a phone < 1252227546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have 3G internet thingy on my phone < 1252227548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ee what? < 1252227550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eeh* < 1252227554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even an old one? < 1252227556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why people would assume i do < 1252227558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I do < 1252227562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252227563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my family own a landline, I can use taht < 1252227567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I use payphones sometimes too < 1252227585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, I would have assumed at least an old GSM one with black and white screen or so < 1252227596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or black and grey rather, you know, like old calculators) < 1252227643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or possibly modern cheap calculators too, but I haven't used a non-graph-capable one for years, so no clue) < 1252227653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern cheap calculators still do that, yes < 1252227661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and exams is a pretty good reason to use them < 1252227672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often calculators that do much more than arithmetic are banned < 1252227717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for this course graphing ones are allowed, but ones that can do CAS aren't < 1252227730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like simplifying expressions and such < 1252227740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is just below what is allowed. < 1252227821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I think mine doesn't follow the physical laws... I haven't replaced the batteries for years, and yes I used it a lot. < 1252227832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four of those small AAAA or whatever they are called < 1252227964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that I replaced batteries in one of those cheap calculators a lot more often... < 1252227974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I used it much less < 1252227977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very odd < 1252228022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Shouldn't a graphing calculator use more power than a cheap one in general? < 1252228160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this "using your phone over bluetooth" or what? < 1252228194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, um that was before, but last was "calculator" < 1252228215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but about phone for connecting to internet over bluetooth, if you know anything about it, please tell < 1252228290 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it "manually" in Debian once, but it was quite a kludge; using that USB 3G modem in Ubuntu was impressively easy, though. My guess for phone-and-bluetooth would be the Bluetooth Device Wizard, maybe. < 1252228294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean, opera mini works fine on the phone, yet I can't see to share it with the laptop over bluethooth. < 1252228309 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should perhaps actually try this, since I have the laptop and Ubuntu open and all. < 1252228348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: would depend on how much calculation it was doing, I suppose < 1252228355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm... same wizard as where you pair the devices up? Because I don't remember seeing any option for that there. I can mount the phone and browse it's file system and such < 1252228369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, maybe it wouldn't; it's more likely to have a more expensive processor, which therefore probably has better power-save features < 1252228375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the graphing one has been used a LOT more. < 1252228386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's a TI-83+ btw < 1252228403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graphing one may also have batteries which hold more charge < 1252228417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and ofc if it's solar-powered, the batteries may never run out) < 1252228447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well 4 AAAA vs 2 AAA? Not sure < 1252228464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and neither is solar-powered < 1252228466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most AAAs hardly hold any charge, they're mass-produced for consumers < 1252228476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but AAAAs are even smaller? < 1252228477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAA, I don't know; but likely they'd be higher-quality due to being harder to get hold of < 1252228482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252228489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :small doesn't necessarily equal low charge, it depends on what they're made of < 1252228500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, both are Duracell thingies. So not exactly "cheap no-name" < 1252228566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious, there's no immediately-obvious thing. What with Ubuntu's "just works" motto, I'd have assumed they have a user-friendly no-config-file-editing-involved solution for this. < 1252228579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just works for Palms < 1252228579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same... < 1252228595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I imagine phone-tethering would be hard to develop, as most networks ban it < 1252228597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather expensive, too < 1252228614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I got as far as using rfcomm to bind the DUN interface for the phone, but there I got stuck.... < 1252228615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody bans it around these parts. And what do you mean "expensive"? < 1252228622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call charges while testing < 1252228636 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, it's a fixed 10 eur/month for unlimited data. < 1252228651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, your mobile operators are much less rip-offy than the ones over here < 1252228652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did manage to use minicom to seriously mess up the phone with AT commands (had to power cycle it... heh), but not to connect to internet < 1252228671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, most operators are pre-pay, but the rates go up astronomically high if you pay less than £15 a month < 1252228689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come to think of it, I don't really know how to set up a traditional dial-up networking connection over Ubuntu either. < 1252228701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it is per data here, but max 9 kr per 24 hours < 1252228703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like tha < 1252228705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1252228718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much is a kr in euros or pounds? < 1252228723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, google? < 1252228732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`convert 1kr in euros < 1252228732 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1252228743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`convert 9 SEK in EUR < 1252228744 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1252228746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252228751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 9 SEK in EUR < 1252228752 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 Swedish kronor = 0.878224893 Euros < 1252228758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1252228764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly 12 kr < 1252228766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure < 1252228772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pretty much the same as our £15 a month effective rate < 1252228796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that wouldn't even be unlimited < 1252228798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah, I have one of those SIM cards that you load with money, rather than pay per month thingy < 1252228808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the English term for it is < 1252228816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-pay < 1252228818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252228825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although "pay as you go" is the usual advertising phrase < 1252228832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh... < 1252228884 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram 9 SEK in EUR < 1252228893 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 SEK in EUR \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert kr 9 Swedish kronor to euros \ Results: \ \ € 0.88 euros \ \ at current quoted rate \ \ Minimal currency form: \ 50c 20c 10c 5c 2c \ \ 0.72 c \ \ Local currency conversion: \ \ $ 1.25 US dollars \ \ at current quoted rate \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) < 1252228903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I meant that above 9 SEK you aren't charged any more for the surfing < 1252228914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until after next midnight < 1252228920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it starts counting again < 1252229120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any Finnish operators offer that sort of deal, which is a bit of a shame, since I only use the mobile interwebs quite rarely, but a lot when it happens. < 1252229210 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, Network Manager's "add mobile broadband connection" wizard (which was used for the 3G modem stuff) says the connection can be made "using a 3G modem or a phone", but it looks a bit like no-one's bothered to add over-Bluetooth support to it yet. < 1252229265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed my conclusion too < 1252229319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that "Blueman" GTK bluetooth manager app, which according to some sources should make it easy to have network manager see the phone. < 1252229352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and with the rfcomm stuff, it seems I'm supposed to know stuff about establishing the connection I have no clue about, I mean... it just works on the phone itself, why shouldn't it just be able to share that connection to the computer... < 1252229432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: please establish data 3G connection, you take care of the details ok, please stand by... (a few seconds pass) done, lets talk with some simple data stream protocol now great! < 1252229435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that won't ever work. I mean, unless your phone specifically has support for Internet-sharing thing. (Some PDA's at least support that sort of "connection setup on the phone, then Internet sharing over the PAN bluetooth protocol thing") < 1252229438 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-23-169.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252229466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah why does it have to act as a clueless modem when it *can* do this sort of thing itself already < 1252229484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that network-manager's "mobile broadband" wizard just has you select your provider from the list, with no messing-around with settings. < 1252229505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yep, there doesn't even seem to be anywhere to select what device you want to use for it < 1252229533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I tried it, but quickly found it wouldn't work in any way whatosever < 1252229586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so what was the complex way under debian that you did? < 1252229611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, network-manager expects to find the modem-to-use over HAL. That blueman app is supposed to provide the necessary glue there. < 1252229618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252229630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not in the official Ubuntu repositories, though. (But there is a APT source for it.) < 1252229636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that explains it < 1252229645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I wouldn't trust random repos. < 1252229648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is it in the contrib repos? < 1252229662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not in universe or multiverse at least. < 1252229707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nnno. It's at https://launchpad.net/blueman, won't comment on trustworthiness. < 1252229731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnno? was that intentional? < 1252229771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... it seems that bit.ly have got themselves an even shorter URL < 1252229791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1252229797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j.mp < 1252229803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.mp? where is that < 1252229807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a mirror < 1252229809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and where is .ly ...) < 1252229860 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libya, and Northern Mariana islands. < 1252229861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh .ly seems to be Libya < 1252229868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah you were faster < 1252230001 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chi.mp seems to be giving out "free" (haven't read the details) .mp domains. < 1252230073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, quite a few TLDs have been taken over commercially, now < 1252230082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IMO is making a mockery of the Internet < 1252230114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know how the saying goes. You can't make a mockery without breaking a few... mocks. < 1252230124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice seems gcc has an __attribute__ that allows you to control -O* and -f* on a per-function basis < 1252230131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least modern GCC has it < 1252230274 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252230290 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny how they speak constantly about you owning your own identity; then when you look at the small print term-definitions: "�Owner� � the term used by Saipan DataCom to describe you as the subscriber to the CHI.MP Service and owner of 'Customer Content.'" < 1252230350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252230502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most places (at least .fi) frown on single-character domains, but I guess not everyone. < 1252230683 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a relatively recent network-manager blog-post which shows how easy the internet-over-bluetooth-over-phone is, assuming you have a bleeding-edge network-manager: http://blogs.gnome.org/dcbw/category/networkmanager/ < 1252230691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess someone's actually working on it. < 1252230761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course also: "DUN support needs a bit more work (it�s more complicated but also more capable); but tons of phones have PAN so let�s get it out there." < 1252230781 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1252230789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do I check if mine has PAN? < 1252230828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it should have some sort of menu for Internet sharing. (Personally I haven't ran into any such phone yet.) < 1252230921 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PAN approach is that more sensible "phone knows actual connection details like AP names" one. < 1252230997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sdptool to list services yields one that seems slightly relevant: Service Name: Network Access Point Service < 1252231083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does actually sound relevant. < 1252231124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1555921 is the full list btw < 1252231178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that excludes the channel info and so on for brevity) < 1252231218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it doesn't seem to be the PAN one though < 1252231238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I found some website mentioning "Service Name: PAN Network Access Point" from that command. < 1252231250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait... < 1252231252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Service Description: Personal Ad-hoc Network Service which provides access to a network < 1252231255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252231288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does sound good. But that PAN support in the network manager was (at the time of the blog post) only in the git master. Probably will take some time for it to dribble down to Ubuntu. < 1252231365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes and this is separate from PAN it seems < 1252231373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus there is no menu for this on the phone afair < 1252231505 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My list of services is a lot shorter: http://pastebin.ca/1555928 < 1252231510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so the phone is quite ancient too. < 1252231612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, what does "PAN" stand for? < 1252231621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personal ad-hoc network? < 1252231639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so that is the description indeed of that. So it is PAN but isn't called PAN < 1252231659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also how would one go about using PAN without network manager? < 1252231681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"personal area network" is the usual expansion. And no clue, really. There was some tutorial about it though. < 1252231817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you have in the sdptool Service Class ID List field for that? I think those should be quite unambiguous, unlike the service name field which is a bit free-form. < 1252231834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Service Class ID List: < 1252231834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Network Access Point" (0x1116) < 1252231835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1252231931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the PAN-AP indeed. < 1252231931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modprobe bnep ... lets see < 1252231963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is looking at http://bluez.sourceforge.net/contrib/HOWTO-PAN and wondering if bluez is new enough in ubuntu 9.04
< 1252231972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbian sources: "return 0x1116; // PAN NAP < 1252231976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programmet "pand" är för närvarande inte installerat. Du kan installera det genom att ange: < 1252231976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get install bluez-compat < 1252231977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh < 1252231986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compat doesn't look good < 1252232019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder how it is done nowdays < 1252232026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, sounds obsoletey. (Though really, if you got a working rfcomm serial line and can speak to the phone, you should be able to set up a traditional dial-up networking connection over it; it's just some AT commands and PPP.) < 1252232046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't manage to get the correct AT commands. Somehow < 1252232097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it seems I have a pan0 interface now, though ifconfig says it is down < 1252232112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what now, since the guide he looked at is so outdated it seems to refer to 2.4 kernels
< 1252232156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's somehow "connected" to the network the phone is on already, you should be able to just bring it up and run dhclient or some-such on it. < 1252232174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it isn't connected as such < 1252232184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the pan0 interface at least < 1252232193 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well, I don't know how that stuff works. :p < 1252232219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have an OS X modem script for the GPRS dial-up networking for "Nokia phones" in general; it's got one set of AT commands that could work. < 1252232269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, pastebin? < 1252232317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to extract the relevant stuff; there's a lot of modem-script-programmatic nonsense. < 1252232326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? < 1252232371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All kind of test-if-it's-a-Nokia-phone and control flow strangeness. < 1252232398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252232435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, got a link to that PAN in network manager thing? it might help to look at the relevant commits < 1252232445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and google seems unable to find it here < 1252232499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, "AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1" should be the magical init string for the modem, followed by >> AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","[access point name here]" << for more initialization, and finally "ATD*99***1#" to dial. < 1252232523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Had to use a different quotation notation for that middle string, since it has embedded quotes.) < 1252232537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would access point name be? < 1252232549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one should be somewhere in the phone menus. < 1252232562 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me it's "saunalahti.internet". < 1252232570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this phone has swedish menus, it is a bit hard to guess what might be intended < 1252232605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kopplingspunkt? < 1252232612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. < 1252232621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems to be "Telia GPRS" (though it is 3G actually -_-) < 1252232637 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Well, that might either be the real name or the human-readable name. < 1252232640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually iirc it is "3G if available, otherwise GPRS" < 1252232651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is your provider listed in the network-manager mobile-broadband thing? < 1252232675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes, but I didn't manage to actually make that thing use my phone < 1252232676 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, you can add a dummy "connection" there, then do "Edit" to it and look at the "APN" field it set up. < 1252232685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm *lets see* < 1252232710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :online.telia.se? < 1252232712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252232740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like a reasonable format. Providers seem to like to make it resemble a DNS name, even though it's not really related. < 1252232747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh < 1252232762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "saunalahti.internet" is just [ISP name].[fictional .internet TLD]. < 1252232764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, seriously PAN sounds a lot saner < 1252232768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1252232786 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And these AT commands might not work; they do work with the N-Gage, though. < 1252232818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so where did you read that about PAN in network-manager, because if I can read the patch I can possibly use it with command line tools myself or such < 1252232864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blogs.gnome.org/dcbw/category/networkmanager/ was the blog-post about it. < 1252232878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252232916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a date, which might be useful maybe. < 1252232952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe < 1252232982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.gnome.org/cgit/network-manager-applet/commit/?id=3bec17daa718354e22ca9b5116a91a4cf594eeee possibly. < 1252233047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that seems less useful than I had hoped < 1252233050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1252233051 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well, the files the code refers to; that actual patch looks pretty short and network-manager-infrastructury. < 1252233091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1252233169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You’ll need gnome-bluetooth >= 2.27.7.1, bluez >= 4.42" <-- right, both are way outdated here < 1252233195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I wouldn't want to have to grok the whole network-manager-applet mess just for this. < 1252233251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ok, about dialup thingy, what sort of place does one enter those commands in? < 1252233282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sort of depends on whether you want to use Ubuntu's network-settings-thingies or some separate PPP dialer (like wvdial). < 1252233295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, whichever is easiest < 1252233321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a working rfcomm channel (with the device file present) it is possible that the device shows up in Ubuntu/Gnome's System > Administration > Network. < 1252233363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't show up there < 1252233374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes I have the rfcomm0 device file < 1252233375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a point-to-point connection, though? < 1252233402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? where whould that be? can't see one at least < 1252233426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one in that "Network Settings" connections tab. < 1252233469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Don't know where it comes from, really.) < 1252233484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, do you mean in the "network tool" thingy with ping, netstat and so on? or in the network manager thing? < 1252233515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. There are three things; the network manager applet (from tray), the "network tool" thing, and a "Network Settings" dialog. < 1252233537 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically pretty much everything in "Network Settings" is set to "roaming mode", in which case the network manager applet takes care of them. < 1252233540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't find the final one < 1252233544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1252233587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the command name is "network-admin"; maybe they've cleaned it away from the menus because it was confusing. :p < 1252233606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tells me to do: sudo apt-get install gnome-network-admin < 1252233644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well, then... if you want to try that, you can. It's either that, some other graphical dialer thing, or just /etc/network/interfaces magic, but I don't quite know how that last one works. < 1252233658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm there is a ppp one there < 1252233671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't see if it is for the built in modem in computer thing or not < 1252233679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it reports pan0 as a wired network XD < 1252233710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, same here too. (I have a useless pan0 too.) < 1252233726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I suspect it may be for the built in modem < 1252233748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just Properties > Enable it, then see the Modem tab for "modem port". < 1252233753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully you'll have your rfcomm device there. < 1252233769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modem port is empty, lets see... < 1252233785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nop, lists /dev/modem and some ttyS[0-3] < 1252233791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this doesn't even have a serial port < 1252233821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Well, you need a serial-port-like connection to the phone, and a /dev node which looks like one -- something you can write AT commands to with minicom. < 1252233824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed /dev/modem doesn't exist even < 1252233840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's a static list of suggestions, then -- same list here. < 1252233847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could write AT commands with minicom to the rfcomm device, but that made the phone lock up < 1252233850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to power cycle it < 1252233856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly I entered the wrong ones < 1252233865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you want to try it, you can put that rfcomm device just manually there in modem port. < 1252233887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's possible that you can do "Connection type" > "GPRS/UMTS" in the "General" tab and just enter the "Access point name" to the field which should appear. < 1252233898 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly it might then do a reasonable generic initialization/dialing thing. < 1252233922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't know what to enter for user/password there... < 1252233930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just leave them empty, it works for me. :p < 1252233937 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, in OS X, at least.) < 1252233954 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you probably want the "Options" tab default-route and use-ISP's-DNS settings too. < 1252233978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I actually don't know how to make it *dial* the configured connection, heh. < 1252234003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I think that network-settings should configure it so that you can "ifup ppp0" manually. Maybe. < 1252234085 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Applying settings will probably reload the network-manager-applet which will temporarily drop your wlan, it seems.) < 1252234103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no luck, it just made my computer keep cycling connection to ethernet and phone crash again < 1252234138 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hhheh. < 1252234150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did your phone reply to plain "AT" with "OK" in minicom? < 1252234175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember, let me test < 1252234226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes it does < 1252234258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, that's pretty strange. < 1252234290 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you could try with those nokia-specific initialization/dial commands. I'll try to see if I can figure out where you can put that stuff in the network-settings place. < 1252234290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it shouldn't do that? < 1252234305 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, it should do that and then work properly. :p < 1252234345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Anyway, "AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1" should be the magical init string for the modem, followed by >> AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","[access point name here]" << for more initialization, and finally "ATD*99***1#" to dial. < 1252234356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I try that first one it seems minicom stops accepting any more input < 1252234360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *do* get an OK < 1252234377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then any key press does nothing, Ctrl-A Z opens the minicom menu thing still though < 1252234403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it just stopped echoing < 1252234417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the E0 possibly. < 1252234433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can indeed try those commands in minicom. < 1252234451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should spew out some binary stuff for PPP connection initialization after the ATD... command, if it works. < 1252234453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well phone locked up at "ATD*99***1#" < 1252234463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rrright. That's not good. < 1252234466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it did spew some binary stuff < 1252234505 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite know what's making it lock up all the time. < 1252234509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also on phone there is an icon for "data connection established", it is an E when connecting, and an E with a box around once the connection is established < 1252234516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it got to the E but never to the box < 1252234527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly this is significant < 1252234553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think around where I am atm there is only GPRS, no 3G, and the phone falls back on GPRS if it can't find 3G < 1252234599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that E thing is only for GPRS, while there is some kind of "3" symbol when there is full 3G around < 1252234618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "G" for the N-gage (always, since it's GPRS only). < 1252234624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it could be E for EDGE? < 1252234625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252234631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is EDGE? < 1252234655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EDGE's a slight speed upgrade to GPRS. < 1252234662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much the same technology, I guess. < 1252234662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is a "nokia 3210 classic" btw < 1252234669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well possibly, I wouldn't know < 1252234706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could try to see what the N-gage says if I minicom those strings into it, to see if it works. I'll have to do the rfcomm setup first, though. < 1252234718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, rfcomm was easy < 1252234738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: rfcomm bind 0 < 1252234742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where channel number is the DUN channel < 1252234764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0 is what will be at the end of the device node < 1252234774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rfcomm unbind 0 < 1252234777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to remove the interface < 1252234778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1252234789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where MAC is the bluetooth one < 1252234805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if phone is set to visible you can use hcitool scan to find it < 1252234829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it did create rfcomm0 there. Will have to apt-get minicom first, though. :p < 1252234847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh ok < 1252235030 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, it picked up /dev/tty8 as the "serial port" by default, or something. < 1252235040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah just edit it < 1252235043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minicom -s < 1252235048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and select to edit the relevant line < 1252235055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1252235134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I pointed it at rfcomm0 and started; the phone did the "bluetooth active and talking" icon for a second, then it went away and said "minicom: cannot open /dev/rfcomm0: No such file or directory". Maybe I typoed the address or something. < 1252235152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, possibly you selected wrong channel? < 1252235201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdptool search --baddr DUN < 1252235212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can drop the baddr stuff if you make the phone visible < 1252235228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1252235232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be bdaddr < 1252235234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not baddr < 1252235263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for mine it is channel 1 < 1252235313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like it should be correct: < 1252235318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1555961 < 1252235483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm weird < 1252235497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1252235498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks ok < 1252235505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says it is closed here too until I try to use it < 1252235518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rfcomm connect 0 00:60:57:B8:DF:55 1" gives the "accept connection request?" dialog on the phone and connects properly, though. < 1252235547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm I have my phone set to auto accept connections from my laptop (but of course not from anywhere else) < 1252235551 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I can give AT commands to the phone with minicom; but I have to keep that "rfcomm connect" running. < 1252235579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't need to do that at all hm < 1252235592 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'll check the commands. Though minicom did send some sort of automatic init string -- "AT S7=45 S0=0 L1 V1 X4 &c1 E1 Q0" -- which hopefully won't break anything. < 1252235603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while minicom is running: < 1252235606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# rfcomm < 1252235606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rfcomm0: 00:21:AA:FC:F2:F4 channel 1 connected [tty-attached] < 1252235612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, interesting < 1252235625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that before < 1252235631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what that command does < 1252235778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmn. Well, I got some binary stuff (which looked reasonably familiar, I think it's the PPP setup) but just the "G", not the "boxed G". Which sort-of makes sense; the PPP server is the phone, after all, and presumably it's going to wait until the PPP connection is formed before actually doing the GPRS call. < 1252235805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did the phone lock up though? < 1252235827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. I don't know what's up with that. < 1252235868 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the "G" symbol seems to be stuck there now. (Normally it's displaying just an "antenna" icon when nothing's connected.) < 1252235912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, try power cycling the phone < 1252235963 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it went away after I browsed (with the phone browser) to google.com and then closed the browser. Silly stuff, though. < 1252235994 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll try that full dial-up networking connection too, just in case. < 1252236041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, full dial up? < 1252236426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, not just minicom commands. < 1252236439 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well, it didn't seem to want to work. But it didn't seem to want to lock up either. < 1252236444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as for wvdial, it refuses to work without user/pass it seems < 1252236468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that's a bit silly. Though you can try entering "x" and "x" for both, it really shouldn't matter. < 1252236512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok works < 1252236557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no dhcp or anything < 1252236566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it didn't crash phone, and it connected (boxed E) < 1252236582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should get IP and DNS from the PPP-specific protocol, I've forgotten the name. < 1252236591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PPPoE? < 1252236595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1252236598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is for ADSL < 1252236612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just some "part of PPP connection setup" thing. < 1252236617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252236637 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pppd is probably writing rather verbose logs (it has a habit) somewhere in /var/log. < 1252236650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it works < 1252236655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could ping google with it < 1252236677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which cost 0.01 kr it seems < 1252236700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well good to know it works, not that I will be using it a lot, just good to know I can if needed < 1252236708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lockups are strange. Did you do any setup with wvdial, or was it just "defaults for everything except /dev/rfcomm0 as the modem port"? < 1252236726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I used the relevant setup strings < 1252236737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: < 1252236743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Init1 = AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1 < 1252236743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Init2 = AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","online.telia.se" < 1252236743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dial Command = ATD < 1252236743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phone = *99***1# < 1252236774 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, those. Hmm. Well, maybe I'll try to set that vwdial up too later, just in case I've forgotten the 3G stick home or something. < 1252236782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, x for user/pass < 1252236790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well 3G stick would be cheaper I bet < 1252236815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as for lockup I think the phone locked up between wvdial and ppp was done < 1252236827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh I also had to set: < 1252236828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid Mode = yes < 1252236840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise wvdial was waiting for a non-existing login prompt < 1252236842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1252236855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same 10 eur/month for both the 3G stick as well as any data over the phone; they're part of the same contract. < 1252236862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252236906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the second SIM card (for the 3G stick) was free, though I had to sign up my soul to them for the next 24 months for that. < 1252236936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't find any ppp log files, possibly it was the stuff that went to the terminal I ran wvdial in < 1252236943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe. < 1252236958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean things like: < 1252236960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--> pppd: F[7f] < 1252236973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that sounds low-level enough. < 1252236978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means < 1252237007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw "Arkleseizure"? < 1252237010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That MultiSIM thing is really strange, though; if I were to stick that second SIM into a phone, any incoming calls would cause both phones to ring. < 1252237051 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answering one makes the others stop ringing. I wonder if there's some sort of race condition there. < 1252237052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err= < 1252237054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1252237072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what second sim? one for the 3G stick? < 1252237077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1252237085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm < 1252237087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how weird < 1252237112 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you can use it in another phone if you want, it's this generic "do you have multiple phones? buy a 'secondary' SIM card" deal. < 1252237150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple mobile phones? why < 1252237175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second SIM card has a some sort of "technical" phone number, but logically they work under the "primary" SIM card number. (I.e. calls to that number go to both, when dialing out the receiver sees the primary number always, they share the same voicemail box, and so on.) < 1252237192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if one of the phones is busy, incoming calls still ring in the other phones. < 1252237209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMS messages only go to the phone with the primary SIM card. < 1252237216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know what sort of use case this is for. < 1252237301 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the ad-blurb (translated): "Do you have two mobile phones? For example a work phone and a party phone? Would you like to take a small and light phone with you when you go out to exercise, rather than your new multimedia phone? Or does your car perhaps have a fixed phone installation?" < 1252237367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252237384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They all sound a bit far-fetched to me; the only one that makes sense is this "want to get online from both the phone and the computer without messing around with internet-over-phone stuff" case. < 1252237539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait hm, the max cost is 9 kr / dygn. And it says that the cost per MB is 20 kr. So that means you hit the max cost / dygn quite fast < 1252237544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note! The MultiSIM service is personal, and you may not distribute the secondary SIM cards to a third person." Otherwise I think quite a lot of people would take the "5 mobile internet connections at a price of 1" deal. < 1252237552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dygn = Swedish word for 24 hour period) < 1252237591 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just "day" (overloaded a bit) in English. < 1252237616 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 20 SEC in EUR < 1252237617 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May 9, 2009 ... 2 EUR, = 3.11 CAD, 100 EUR, = 155.59 CAD. 5 EUR, = 7.78 CAD, 200 EUR, = 311.18 CAD. 10 EUR, = 15.56 CAD, 500 EUR, = 777.95 CAD. 20 EUR ... < 1252237618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well day in English could be a 12 hour period as well < 1252237624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, SEK. < 1252237634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 20 SEK in EUR < 1252237635 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 Swedish kronor = 1.95161087 Euros < 1252237645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the SEC -> EUR thingy < 1252237652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make a lot of sense < 1252237672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it just picked some popular currencies when it didn't recognize SEC. < 1252237698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's 1.5 EUR/MB here without a specific data plan thing. < 1252237699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252237755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess that `calc is from Google? < 1252237780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to miss the "Did you mean: 20 SEK in EUR" correction, and pick up the summary for a "Convert Euros to Canadian Dollars" page. < 1252237799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252237810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it just looks for the first "X = Y" line on the page. < 1252237994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prices really are a lot more reasonable nowdays than just half a year ago < 1252238010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still pretty expensive < 1252238093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 10 eur/month (well, 9.80/month to be exact) was pretty much the upper limit for me, since the Nebula ADSL we have at home is so awfully expensive. < 1252238122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw the built in modem thingy doesn't seem to show up in linux at all. No great loss though < 1252238185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's one of those winmodems, it's not much of a surprise. I think the iBook modem showed up as a serial port in Linux, though not sure about that. < 1252238210 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And "upper limit" in the "is willing to pay" sense, maybe not quite in the "can afford" sense.) < 1252238260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much do you use it btw? < 1252238347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I don't know what: < 1252238350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:03.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset MEI Controller (rev 07) < 1252238350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1252238354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly the modem? < 1252238446 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Active_Management_Technology maybe. No clue. < 1252238489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be < 1252238510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I probably don't use it enough to justify paying every month. I just got it as a preparation for an Android phone some day; those are a bit internet-dependent. < 1252238521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google Maps at 1.5 eur/MB doesn't sound like a win. < 1252238574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except with that sort of "maximum price per day" thing, but we don't have that. < 1252238603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I don't think any Finnish operator does it; many do "you pay only this much for telephone calls per day", but they've cleverly not included data in that. < 1252238736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is no such thing for the calls, only for the data < 1252238740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it is Telia here < 1252238746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teila Refill to be exact < 1252238762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so maybe Sonera (sp?) has it? < 1252238793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that; Sonera is (or at least has traditionally been) one of the most expensive options here. < 1252238818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same for Telia here. Reliable, good coverage, but expensive. < 1252238833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is going down now, still I guess the other ones are less expensive < 1252238896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sonera has recently removed all "named" deals; nowadays they just have that pre-paid thing, and then for "pay monthly" there's this "build your own GSM connection" thing, where you pick all kinds of options and it computes the final price. < 1252238945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh... < 1252238955 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually yes, they indeed do have one max-price-per-day data thing. < 1252238996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Data Tunti" (where fi:tunti == en:hour) -- you pay 0.90 EUR/hour for data, with a maximum of 6.90 EUR for a 24 hour period. < 1252239033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252239033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the 6.90 EUR/day is a lot more than your 20 SEK -> ~1.95 EUR. < 1252239048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, 9 SEK/day? < 1252239055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yep. 20 SEK was per MB. But 9 SEK max per 24 hour period < 1252239056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then it's really a lot more than that. < 1252239117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, though, calls are pretty expensive. More so than when I first got this it seems. < 1252239122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, they have (and this must be a new thing, wasn't there less than a year ago) also a "Data Päivä" (fi:päivä == en:day), where you pay 2.90 EUR at the start of each 24-hour data-use period. < 1252239135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1252239149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://www.telia.se/files/iSurfMiniMidiMaxi_TSP1543_priser_07aug.pdf < 1252239151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1252239151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1252239153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong one < 1252239157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.telia.se/files/TeliaRefill_1139_3april.pdf < 1252239159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I meant < 1252239209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Sonera only does this custom-option-pickery, I don't have a good price sheet to point at. The web-based customizer looks a bit Finnish-only. < 1252239211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems that data is the only cheap thing on it < 1252239232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite the reverse of when I first got it < 1252239241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird they didn't tell their customers about that < 1252239280 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 0.69 SEK in EUR < 1252239281 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.69 Swedish kronor = 0.0673305752 Euros < 1252239283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... data isn't exactly cheap either. What was it you paid < 1252239290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 EUR / month or? < 1252239296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.80 EUR/month, yes. < 1252239308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 9.80 EUR to SEK < 1252239309 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.80 Euros = 100.429856 Swedish kronor < 1252239321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much cheaper than mine would be if I used it every day < 1252239323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for data < 1252239332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'm likely to use it very often for that < 1252239335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, that's obviously optimized for sporadic use. < 1252239359 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Sonera's 2.90 EUR/24 hours. They have an about-10 EUR/month option too. < 1252239361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and the 0.69 thing is "within a month after you refilled the account" < 1252239371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it is the cost inside the parentheses < 1252239390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 1.99 SEK in EUR < 1252239391 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that's clever. < 1252239392 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.99 Swedish kronor = 0.194185282 Euros < 1252239398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite a bit worse < 1252239399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and this 9.80 EUR is with a 384 kbps speed limit, though; the faster options cost more. < 1252239488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mine is for 1 mbps limit iirc < 1252239546 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite remember how much I pay for calls, since they no longer sell this limit. < 1252239589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The calls are reasonably expensive (something like 0.069 eur/minute, which is pretty close to that 0.69 SEK actually) but there's no monthly charge at all. (Except for this data add-on service.) < 1252239589 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1252239610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and they seem to do it for whole minutes. As in... anything less than one minute still cost one minute < 1252239619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and between 1 and 2 minutes cost 2 minutes < 1252239638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no monthly charge at all here either < 1252239664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pre-paid ones tend not to have one. < 1252239673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, it seems that in August (when I got this mobile Internet) I used it for 96 separate connections, totaling about 27 hours, and moved 66488 kilobytes of data. < 1252239688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66488 kb ... that would be < 1252239698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 MB? < 1252239701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the 1.5 EUR/MB cost, that's 97.39 EUR. < 1252239704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during 27 hours? < 1252239720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you say it was fixed to 10 EUR? < 1252239736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, s/'s/ would be/ < 1252239751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252239812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my phone claims I so far received 5024540 bytes < 1252239817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I bought it < 1252239832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the N-Gage keeps a running count, unfortunately. < 1252239836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :send 1152056 bytes < 1252239871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, total connected time: two hours, 58 minutes and 32 seconds < 1252239881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is slightly less than a year old < 1252239889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a year - 2 months or so < 1252239972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, can't seem to find such statistics in this phone. Aw. < 1252239990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1252239998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is in the same menu as called numbers, missed calls and such < 1252240004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "GPRS data counter" in the "missed calls" menu, indeed. < 1252240013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right < 1252240021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All sent data: 6.17 MB", "All receiv. data: 19.31 MB". < 1252240039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had this for at least five years now. < 1252240060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that the same plan as your 3G usb stick thing or? < 1252240082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, same connection, but the phone can't count that of course. < 1252240108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1252240121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think data was something like 10 EUR/MB when I bought the phone, didn't really use it back then. < 1252240252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All calls: 41 hours, 52 minutes, 23 seconds. < 1252240262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The firmware upgrade probably reset these counters anyway. < 1252240308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1252240323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I wonder if you can get internet over bluetooth the other way around < 1252240330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, phone connecting to laptop < 1252240340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that once. < 1252240344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be useful for expensive firmware upgrades < 1252240350 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though to a desktop, not laptop. < 1252240353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expensive as in: will easily hit the 9 kr < 1252240361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, my desktop lacks bluetooth < 1252240369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway: how? < 1252240383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does mine, but I had borrowed an USB stick for it. < 1252240384 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-23-169.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252240405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well ok, how anyway? < 1252240445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I don't remember the details. There was a *really* strange kludge involving an imaginary ".mrouter" TLD; Nokia phones use DNS queries to that to see if they're running under the PC Suite thing. < 1252240493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah... < 1252240494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1252240504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well probably not worth the trouble then < 1252240509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.bwestermann.privat.t-online.de/3650linux_en.html seems to be about it; probably very obsoleted, and bad English. < 1252240586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might also not work on newer phones: http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35332 < 1252240614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course it could be completely different for different models. < 1252240670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1252240909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Symbian phones I think there was some app. The PPP connection between the computer and the phone of course doesn't care which way the bits flow, but some sort of kludge is needed to (a) make the phone not close the connection when you're not making it connect to the Internet over GPRS/etc., and (b) to set up a default route with the computer as a gateway. < 1252240925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't think this is a symbian one < 1252240958 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't constantly reboot, it probably isn't. :p < 1252240965 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, so that's more of a N-Gage problem.) < 1252241035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't seem to find a "3210 classic" from Nokia's device specs. There is a 3120 classic, though. < 1252241049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S40 5th edition FP1.) < 1252241177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the PAN-AP thing is not listed in the "Bluetooth Profiles" list (A2DP, AVRCP, DUN, FTP, GAP, GAVDP, GOEP, HFP, HSP, OPP, SAP, SDAP, SPP; I don't know what most of those mean) for 3120 classic, so if that's your phone, it probably doesn't support the PAN approach for interweb sharing at least officially. < 1252241332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err 3120 classic was what I meant < 1252241343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it use symbian? < 1252241349 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a S40 phone. < 1252241357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what does that mean exactly? < 1252241393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a Nokia term; most of their phones are S40 (non-Symbian, custom proprietary OS) or S60 (Symbian). < 1252241402 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Series 40" and "Series 60" officially. < 1252241430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the S40 OS is called "Nokia OS" in the specs; I think it had some silly internal codename too. < 1252241449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/3120_classic < 1252241606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only Symbian phones in the 3xxx series seem to be 3230, 3250, 3600, 3620, 3650 and 3660, all pretty old (2003-2005). < 1252241623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252241671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway you say it is more advanced than the S60 one? < 1252241677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that one you have < 1252241693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also is symbian not propietary? < 1252241741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so, maybe "internal" or something like that would be a better word. You can buy a Symbian license; you can't buy a "Nokia OS" license. < 1252241796 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess the first question depends on the precise definition of "advanced". This N-gage might be a bit more "programmable" (you can write native-code apps for it; it's just J2ME on S40 phones) but certainly yours has a lot of features that this doesn't. (Like 3G.) < 1252241817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252241826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and 30 MB flash built in or so < 1252241833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't have a micro sd card for it < 1252241861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, fat load of good the programmability does me: *no-one* supports the "1st Edition" S60 devices any more, only from 3rd edition upwards. < 1252241899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252241930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how would one write J2ME apps without ending up killing one self though? < 1252241935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's impossible < 1252241937 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even open-source folks bother to support it any longer. I have to use an outdated copy of PuTTY because the couple of newest versions no longer support it. < 1252241952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't you update the OS on it? < 1252241955 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't think J2ME is that bad. I mean, compared to Symbian development it's pure pleasure. < 1252241959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1252241968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh symbian development is worse? < 1252241980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbian development is legendary in painfulness. < 1252242018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252242029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't even flash the firmware on the N-gage without specialized hardware, if you could magically get a N-gage firmware with a newer Symbian version, which you can't. < 1252242036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there any putty for my phone though? would be quite nice to have, though rather useless < 1252242053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no PuTTY port, but there's a J2ME SSH client, sure. < 1252242058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1252242063 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/ < 1252242070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should work just fine in your phone. < 1252242076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trustability? < 1252242094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is it open source? < 1252242118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's GPL. < 1252242125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't seem to find the source link right now though. < 1252242170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's at the end of the download page, I'm just selectively blind. < 1252242196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find it either < 1252242211 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/downloadversion.php?version=1.7.3 and at the end, for example. < 1252242225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252242234 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the devel version. Of course reading the source doesn't really help unless you build it yourself, so you'd need the J2ME SDK stuff. < 1252242263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so should one select devel or stable hm < 1252242283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and, jar or jad file? for cost reasons I hope I can transfer this over bluetooth < 1252242290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the file protocol thingy (which works) < 1252242316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.jar, then. < 1252242337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least on my phone you can just file-transfer a .jar and it'll launch the app-installer. < 1252242345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252242370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that file transfer ftp like or file transfer "mount phone as a directory" like? < 1252242392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also is there no ssh2 only build ? < 1252242418 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, I've just used the "send file to device" OS X bluetooth thing; it speaks OBEX internally. < 1252242456 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file arrives as a "message" then. If your phone has a file browser app, though, you can probably just transfer it however you like and "launch" it. < 1252242468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, aren't jar just zip files? < 1252242503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when I try to open it I get: "Invalid crc on data descriptor 0/134695760 on midpssh-full.jar" < 1252242512 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zip files with some specially handled file names (in the MANIFEST directory), yes. < 1252242514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1252242527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which version was this? < 1252242539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stable full < 1252242582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/v1.6.0/midpssh-full.jar + "unzip -l midpssh-full.jar" looks fine to me. < 1252242618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not with unzip, I was trying advzip to compress it better, which tends to work for every other jar file I tried it on < 1252242636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests with unzip
< 1252242656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unzip works, how strange < 1252242688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically in a .jar file the META-INF directory needs to be first, but I guess advzip wouldn't go change the file order anyway. < 1252242707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, well java -jar foo.jar after always worked < 1252242718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 495 Defl:N 500 867670159% 02-27-07 20:32 171efe4a small.png <-- that looks a bit wrong < 1252242727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few more like that < 1252242727 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I don't think apps really care about it. < 1252242770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 495 Defl:N 500 -1% 2007-02-27 20:32 171efe4a small.png < 1252242774 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what my "unzip" says. < 1252242780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252242791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was a bit off there < 1252242825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .png files indeed have a bit larger compressed size. Optimally they wouldn't be deflate-compressed at all. < 1252242848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, and the pngs would first be optimially compressed with optipng and advpng < 1252242869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though some apps tend to throw up on 4 bit gray scale pngs and such < 1252242874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so might not be a good idea always ;) < 1252242894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I love how complex png actually is) < 1252242904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With 30 MB of flash (and something like a megabyte-or-two Java heap) I don't think you should care *that* much about a 121164-byte .jar. < 1252242927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't put a gigabyte-or-a-couple microSD card in the phone? < 1252242983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nop < 1252243015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I remember having problems running non-signed jars in my phone hm < 1252243342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, can it do public key auth? < 1252243575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I seem unable to specify a non-standard port too < 1252243597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really used it, just heard of it. < 1252243653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The S60 port of PuTTY does public-key auth, fortunately. I'm not sure about MidpSSH; J2ME apps can't really access the phone filesystem freely, IIRC, so it'd have to have some sort of own key-store thing. < 1252243703 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not listed on the "Features" page. < 1252243733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Use Public Key - for SSH 2 connections you can opt to use public key / private key authentication rather than a password." < 1252243738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it should support that. < 1252243748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/wiki/public-key < 1252243795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the non-standard port bit doesn't seem to work though < 1252243810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"now available", doesn't say which version it refers to. And doesn't support passphrases in the public key yet. :p < 1252243831 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252243835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1252243852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you should be able to use just "host:1234" as the hostname to connect to port 1234. < 1252243868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, tried that < 1252243886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just timed out, and yes I know it works because I done it from uni with my laptop < 1252243896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, based on http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/wiki/using-sessions it's supported. Feel free to check sources whether that feature too is only in the devel version. :p < 1252243910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must prepare some food. → < 1252243948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well ssh keys was in stable it seemed < 1252244118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if that is genuine Quenya
< 1252244150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it has anything to do with balrogs < 1252244252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm Valarauko does mean that < 1252244335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but the phrase itself only gives iwc < 1252244369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm just the word hirdinya in fact < 1252244408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah the dev version works better < 1252244503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact all the words i tested _expect_ valarauko only exists on that page, so i take it DMM just made something to sound right < 1252244517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*except < 1252244535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-s < 1252244688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and iirc quenya transliteration doesn't use ë except at the end of words < 1252244718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tolkien used it only so english-speakers wouldn't make it silent iirc) < 1252245769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, didn't the annotation say it was Tengwar or whatever < 1252245783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1252245784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that the script? < 1252245788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that he didn't use < 1252245794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tengwar is the script, which he _didn't_ use < 1252245795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "Quenya" the language? < 1252245808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it definitely resembles quenya < 1252245839 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252245841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you realise saying that makes you look incredibly nerdy? < 1252245852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1252245852 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-23-169.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252245861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though not as much as if you was able to speak it fluently) < 1252245876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i even used to subscribe to the conlang list < 1252245904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252245920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately i'm much too lazy to actually _learn_ it ;) < 1252246422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that a good thing? < 1252246515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes me slightly less nerdy? :D < 1252246576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why is that a good thing? < 1252246686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, bunnies! < 1252246692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1252246725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252246730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1252247840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally there's a thread on the iwc forum where they are discussing who is geekiest. sample: "I mentioned to a friend at an SCA event the other day that I'd translated lines from Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog into the Black Speech for use by my half-orc D&D character." < 1252247974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that was just the beginning of his post) < 1252248030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1252248172 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252249007 0 :fizzieg!n=fis@85.76.204.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252249054 0 :fizzieg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Incidentally, one of the reasons why this net-over-phone might not have worked was that I was trying to use the APN "saunalahti.internet" when the correct would have been "internet.saunalahti". < 1252249107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252249118 0 :fizzieg!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252249195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those pesky finns have got internet in their saunas! < 1252249268 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:lahti is also en:bay, in the geographical sense. So, "the Sauna Bay". < 1252249315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a very common place-name, actually, what with all the saunas around and all. I think there are at least four of them, probably many more. < 1252249447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, secure auth by first public key and then enforced password. (all thus using a restricted user) < 1252249463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/thus/this/ < 1252249856 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.72.195 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252249930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:44:57 wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view < 1252249931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking hell that's ugly < 1252249940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like one of those one-page sites where they get you to buy a get-rich book < 1252249942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugly /and/ unusable < 1252249957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to top it, the content isn't particularly good either < 1252249978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can anti-donate from the FSF < 1252249985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, transfer $10 from the FSF to the EFF < 1252249996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252250005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think that the FSF are paid by Microsoft to spread FUD so obvious it backfires? < 1252250022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that would explain the free software song < 1252250028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOOOOOOOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE < 1252250039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that awful Stephen Fry documentary? < 1252250063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how it was Freedom Fry when he's british < 1252250076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:32:05 w00t clean Ubuntu install is nice :) < 1252250076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:32:22 I should seriously consider doing this every 6 months, rather than upgrading < 1252250076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're doing something severely fucked up to your upgradees... < 1252250150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:58:52 ais523, any idea how to connect to internet using your phone in ubuntu? < 1252250152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bluetooth < 1252250157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvs < 1252250169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:59:16 I don't see why people would assume i do < 1252250169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:59:18 *I do < 1252250170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because everyone does < 1252250221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: on ubuntu it's easy < 1252250222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1252250223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on xp < 1252250231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :connect via bluetooth, then connect to → bluetooth < 1252250236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1252250264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, read the whole discussion with fizzie below before commenting on that :P < 1252250270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1252250287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your loss < 1252250287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:16:35 but I imagine phone-tethering would be hard to develop, as most networks ban it < 1252250288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:16:37 rather expensive, too < 1252250288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expensive how < 1252250298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call charges < 1252250299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the iphone 3g s has tethering, but not in the us/AT&T < 1252250321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:17:16 Er, it's a fixed 10 eur/month for unlimited data. < 1252250321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:17:31 wow, your mobile operators are much less rip-offy than the ones over here < 1252250321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1252250337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a practically-unlimited-for-light-stuff contract for £25/mo < 1252250341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with unlimited 3g interwebs < 1252250397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also you can have a pay-as-you-go + £10/mo unlim 3g internet < 1252250494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:40:01 chi.mp seems to be giving out "free" (haven't read the details) .mp domains. < 1252250494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only host an openid thingy on them tho < 1252250511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:41:13 oh, quite a few TLDs have been taken over commercially, now < 1252250511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:41:22 which IMO is making a mockery of the Internet < 1252250511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like everything else involving money and the internet since the 70s, right? < 1252250520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1252250520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be a pretty damn big mock by now for you < 1252250526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is < 1252250575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some talk about a website in the .mp, but I really didn't bother to read the details. < 1252250666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is disappointed hum.an doesn't exist
< 1252250823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.an? < 1252250860 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Netherlands Antilles" < 1252250872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so stop using it and stop whining < 1252250887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, eh.. netherlands is .nl iirc, so what is this "Netherlands Antilles"? < 1252250895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently you have to be from there to register, but it's strange no one there thought of it... < 1252250896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I mostly don't use most of the bits I don't like < 1252250904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I whine is because I rather enjoy it < 1252250906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ever heard of colonialism? < 1252250911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's annoying. < 1252250928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's two islands in the Caribbean; that seems to often be the case. < 1252250944 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Netherlands Antilles was scheduled to be dissolved as a unified political entity on December 15, 2008, so that the five constituent islands would attain new constitutional statuses within the Kingdom of the Netherlands,[3] but this dissolution has been postponed to an indefinite future date which will at the latest be October 2010." -- maybe that's why people don't like their TLD. < 1252250951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I would have assumed they dropped the name of the parasite country when they became a separate country. And would have used the same TLD if not a separate country < 1252250976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :country TLDs are so stupid < 1252251014 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autonomous regions of one country often have their own ccTLDs. �land has .ax, to pick a nearby example. < 1252251015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing they can usefully classify non-arbitrarily is single-country organisations (and you never know when an organisation will spread), and they break every single domain in them if the country disappears, unless they're persuaded to not drop it < 1252251107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's a 3g internet service with free roaming, dammit :P < 1252251109 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252251120 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252251176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't sell .ax domains to any non-�land-related companies/individuals, though. I don't think I've happened across an .ax site ever. < 1252251202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who use country TLDs for personal stuff amuse me < 1252251210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am never ever ever going to move!" < 1252251245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, fl.ax exists :D < 1252251245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, I wish people would stop linking to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html < 1252251254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the business model it outlines is utterly impractical and useless... < 1252251312 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was some talk in engadget-mobile referring to some US operator with data plans that included roaming (but 3G only in the States, only GPRS when roaming, and I don't know how unlimited-data the roaming parts were). < 1252251320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :str.ax doesn't... < 1252251338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my crapbook thing has that awful gprs/ie thing < 1252251347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wonder if the gprs can be used for non-IE-server stuff? < 1252251351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Finnish operators roaming-GPRS tends to cost some really absurd amount of money, like well over 10 eur/MB. < 1252251359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares, I'd rather pay £10/mo for 3g < 1252251370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, roaming, grumble < 1252251384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of mobile internet is to make location irrelevant imo < 1252251403 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you move within your little box, yes. < 1252251404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey! < 1252251405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/06/new-thinkpad-keyboard-features-crowdsourced-design-lower-price/ < 1252251411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New ThinkPad desktop keyboard thing. < 1252251416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny how I was talking about it yesterday. < 1252251424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so you are saying that ccTLDs only make sense for stuff like governments and such? < 1252251440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least they usually don't spread) < 1252251442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pretty much. and local branches of international metaorganisations, maybe < 1252251454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "Fishermen International" has a group "Fishermen Ireland < 1252251454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1252251458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about something like BBC? < 1252251460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then fishermen.ie would make sense < 1252251469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's a governmental organisation, more or less < 1252251477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1252251478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a few degrees of seperation < 1252251544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no touchpad hm < 1252251551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a mouse :P < 1252251560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the trackpoint is a boon when typing ofc < 1252251576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and I prefer a keyboard that is less shallow < 1252251596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonsense < 1252251610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who likes desktops anyway :P < 1252251691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for long term use I prefer a computer I don't have to look down at to see the screen. Maybe a laptop with a monitor on some sort of extendable hydralic arm or such? < 1252251702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can plug displays into notebooks < 1252251728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and flatten down the screen to use the kb/nub/pad < 1252251729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes sure, but also a full sized keyboard is nice when typing for long periods. < 1252251739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinkpad keyboards are full sized < 1252251746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keys are the same size as on a desktop keyboard < 1252251792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes mostly, Ctrl/Alt and space are not full sized for example < 1252251801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on the older ones < 1252251807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they needed to fit the arrow keys in on the same row kind of < 1252251820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus Fn < 1252251833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they dropped one windows key to be able to do it < 1252251849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/3072.jpg < 1252251866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252251886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one drops both windows keys and the menu key to manage it < 1252251896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: use fn as an extra modifier < 1252251904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, most of the keys have no fn action < 1252251908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can use it for them < 1252251918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any menu key on this keyboard and I've had zero problems, too < 1252251922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc impossible, fn generates no key event to computer I think... let me check < 1252251930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it does on the older ones :P < 1252251957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg ;; this was the machine the uni battery guy had, right? < 1252251962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the most famous ones, I'm pretty sure < 1252251973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and prolly the only IBM one to hit 14hrs... < 1252251978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it does, but BIOS intercepts some, such that Fn-PgUp generates no key event apart from Fn < 1252251983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PgUp is the thinklight) < 1252251997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not BIOS < 1252251998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure, but it's a minority of keys that have a fn action < 1252252000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some part anyway < 1252252001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can use it for all the oters < 1252252091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway, what about escape key relative F keys... that is one thing I often typo, hitting F2 when I mean F1, because F1 is where Esc is usually < 1252252114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/shrug < 1252252116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I'll adjust < 1252252131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need the main block of keys, enter, backspace, delete and modifiers most of the time < 1252252140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll probably map Fn-Backspace to delete for easiness) < 1252252150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and it still doesn't solve the issue with feeling I mentioned above. I much prefer keys that goes down further (like traditional desktop keyboards) < 1252252161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you're crazy, < 1252252163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, thinkpads have great keyboards compared to many other laptops < 1252252171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they have great keyboards full stop. < 1252252191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on if you prefer full depth or shallow ones. < 1252252242 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The logitech illuminated Fn key doesn't generate anything visible to the computer, which is a bit of a shame. < 1252252259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: scissor-switch right? buy the thinkpad keynub! :P < 1252252261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15:45] ehird: http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg ;; this was the machine the uni battery guy had, right? < 1252252264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1252252293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mmh nop don't think so. Hard to say from the pic < 1252252298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it had touchpad < 1252252299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1252252303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as trackpoint < 1252252307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just switched keyboards, I think I'm going to have to use that at least until I break its spacebar too. < 1252252325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly T60, or T61 if it was widescreen < 1252252331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I can tell you on friday, same course then. < 1252252345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were the point's buttons red, i wonder < 1252252359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so then it'd be T43 < 1252252419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if you could show me the left side of it closer I could tell better I think. < 1252252425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I saw that most of the time < 1252252430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1252252439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it definitely didn't have a floppy, not sure if that one there does < 1252252444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit hard to tell from the pic < 1252252445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell no :) < 1252252456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they've ever had floppies < 1252252464 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just think that any ultrabay battery must be really heavy if it changes 5 1/2 hours into 14 < 1252252471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I doubt it's a T-series, really < 1252252475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err 9 into 14 < 1252252480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I said that < 1252252487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 hours with the 9-cell? < 1252252492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely an X series. < 1252252496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well maybe it was 10 cell then < 1252252500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever. < 1252252501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same. < 1252252519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it was sticking out quite a bit, so possibly more than 9 cell < 1252252526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter < 1252252534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The T43 gets 5 1/2 hours on the 9 cell < 1252252539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, one card reader slot above a pc card slot on the right side < 1252252541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar for the T60 < 1252252544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it can't possibly be a T series < 1252252563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well it wasn't http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg because it did have a touchpad. < 1252252584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he was lying to you about the battery life : < 1252252585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252252607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is there any step above 9 cell? < 1252252631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, like, up to 12-cell. Regardless, 5 1/2 hours on 9 cell != 9 hours on 12 cell < 1252252658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, might have been 12-cell then, < 1252252669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have misremembered that bit < 1252252670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't a T series. < 1252252679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the X series, which has no touchpads, gets that much battery. < 1252252685 0 :xfire35!n=xfire35@cpc2-pete3-0-0-cust800.pete.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252252714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, design looked very similar to my R500, the whole thing was slightly smaller (looked like maybe 14" instead of 15.4") and the battery was sticking out quite a bit < 1252252728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may have been 15" normalscreen. < 1252252759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9343.jpg < 1252252765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://macbitz.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/thinkpad-t601.jpg < 1252252766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, possibly, but definitely not 4:3 < 1252252774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg < 1252252778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Are you sure < 1252252778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1252252790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, then < 1252252794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.landbiksen.dk/catalog/images/5153-IMG7415s.jpg < 1252252796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1252252802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vernontech.ca/uploads/lenovo_thinkpad_t61.jpg < 1252252819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9343.jpg <-- not too much off, but don't remember the bit that is sticking out on the right side of the screen < 1252252828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See links after "If so, then" < 1252252922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg <-- looks quite similar, but less widescreen? http://www.landbiksen.dk/catalog/images/5153-IMG7415s.jpg <-- PC card slots are off, it had one pc card slot and above that a card reader which was not part of a pc-card. Also that seems to have a thicker boarder for the screen? < 1252252954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe the thicker boarder is just doe to the angle of the picture < 1252252970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg is not after "If so, then". < 1252252974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg is the 4:3 T60. < 1252252993 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1252253009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, can you wait until friday, I will try to see what the model number is then ;P < 1252253024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm convinced it either doesn't exist or you're misremembering. < 1252253088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I could be misremembering that it was a ibm and not a lenovo (and didn't some early lenovo ones still have the ibm logo on them?) < 1252253114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it was actually a live goat and not a laptop at all? < 1252253115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the latest two models or so don't have the IBM logo, whereas Lenovo has owned it since 2004/2005. < 1252253124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there are many Lenovo-manufactured models that have the IBM logo on them. < 1252253140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, right. Mine doesn't have the IBM logo btw < 1252253175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway, show me pics of 9 cell and 12 cell and I'll tell you which of those it was < 1252253180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1252253208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless that ultrabay battery back weighs like a kilo, no way a trackpad-having ThinkPad gets that much battery, though. < 1252253227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the trackpad uses a lot of energy? < 1252253256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's just that the X series is the only one that could handle that sort of battery life. < 1252253261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they don't have trackpads. < 1252253276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Have you seen http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110? < 1252253278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so SMALL! < 1252253292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pic with scale: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~linma/gif/ibm_palmtop_pc110.gif < 1252253301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is the top not flat? < 1252253302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual photo: http://www.mobile-diary.com/pc110/pc110_5.jpg < 1252253316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No idea, but jeez! < 1252253325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine that keyboard. Ouch. < 1252253330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta be worse than the iPhone's. < 1252253347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~linma/gif/ibm_palmtop_pc110.gif is Droste. < 1252253362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah ouch < 1252253372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cute, though. < 1252253377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also really pointless. < 1252253378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also cute. < 1252253379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that last link < 1252253384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the meny system thingy on it < 1252253397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some proprietary bootup thing, I think. It also runs Windows. < 1252253403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And DOS, and Linux and BSD. < 1252253411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also very thick. < 1252253432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So's your..." and so on. < 1252253475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are two completion to that that come to mind and only one is an insult. Although the other is mildly disturbing. < 1252253508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... I can only think of one < 1252253517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is your cat? right? < 1252253565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1252253606 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252253607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah I know what the other one is! "goldfish" < 1252253608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1252253634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yo goldfish so fat, she doesn't fit in a standard-sized goldfish bowl. < 1252253652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an insult! < 1252253691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yo momma so fat, she's slightly above the standard BMI!" < 1252253698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wife's family have this Toshiba T1000 PC "laptop", it's so very portable: http://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/comp/museumpics/toshibat1000a.jpg < 1252253711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What, really? < 1252253712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. < 1252253722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me they actually use it. < 1252253741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :640x200 screen and all. And a 256-kilobyte ROM chip (with ms-dos 2.something) in place of a HD; but you can use floppies for storage. < 1252253767 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something wrong with it last I heard, but it wasn't very many years ago when we played a bit of Tetris on it. < 1252253775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it has a graphical screen? Amazing. < 1252253777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't exactly say it'd be in *active* use right now though. < 1252253787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That keyboard is probably buckling-spring. < 1252253787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252253808 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably membrane or dome < 1252253814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CGA-compatible monochrome screen, but graphical, yes. < 1252253816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That old? < 1252253817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1252253823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, awesome people used this: http://www.computercloset.org/Apple_Macintosh_Portable.jpg < 1252253826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any network or such? < 1252253831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got a trackball and button and all. < 1252253837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's dinky! < 1252253838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what do you mean... non-graphical screen? < 1252253841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1252253847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, like VT100. < 1252253862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Macintosh Portable was also stylish! All whit eand all. < 1252253863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text-only. < 1252253869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it ran system 6 up to system 7.5. < 1252253870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's a serial port. < 1252253875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And had a 16Mhz processor! < 1252253879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm that's a bit too slow < 1252253881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus you had a whole 1MiB of RAM. < 1252253882 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Alongside the earlier T1100 and T1200 systems, the Toshiba T1000 helped to change the image of portable computing. Before the T1100, previous supposedly portable computers were large and unwieldy." Fortunately that's not unwieldy at all. < 1252253889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even expandable to 9MiB or 8MiB if it's the backlight version. < 1252253891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You think the CPU could handle anything faster? :-P < 1252253894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so high-spec, isn't it? < 1252253898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even had a hard disk! < 1252253900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but wasn't the CRT itself technically able to render graphics, just the hardware wasn't able to be told to do so? < 1252253903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it had a modem inside. < 1252253908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that the difference matters) < 1252253917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That T1000 had the standard 4.77 MHz.. well, it's a 80C86, but compatible anyway. And 512 kB of RAM. < 1252253918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: True, I guess. < 1252253918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1252253933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: See? The Macintosh Portable was way superior. And came out in 1989. :-P < 1252253934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course it could be non-graphical like a cheap calculator < 1252253938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad it cost $6,500 for the base model. < 1252253939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with fixed segments < 1252253952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The T1000 came out in 1987, so it's understandable it's a bit less powerful. < 1252253964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it had a good display. < 1252253965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wasn't the macintosh portable WAY heavier? < 1252253974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 16 pounds < 1252253980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 16 pounds in kg < 1252253981 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 pounds = 7.25747792 kilograms < 1252253990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that Toshiba looks lighter < 1252253995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt the other one was much less luggable. < 1252254013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe I misjudged the scale... < 1252254018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't really matter at that point, considering you can't really carry it. < 1252254022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're about the same size. < 1252254037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, one has a tracball on the side too < 1252254043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But its keyboard is smaller. < 1252254044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly smaller keyboard though < 1252254045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pc-museum.com/gallery/rcm-061-big-Macintosh-portable.jpg -- it does look a lot kewler. < 1252254045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252254057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there was a picture already. < 1252254060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Totally. < 1252254079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway my plan when asking for network was: < 1252254087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thin client < 1252254103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with serial it wouldn't be usable even as that < 1252254106 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's usable as a serial terminal. < 1252254113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it'd be easier to plug in a monitor and keyboard to the server. :P < 1252254133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does that Toshiba have a fan in it? < 1252254135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes, but I was thinking something that was low end graphical, something that 10 mbps Ethernet could have handled < 1252254138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet the Macintosh Portable didn't! < 1252254154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Steve Jobs hated fans. Which is why the Mac kept frying. < 1252254157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know, could be either way. < 1252254174 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have a VT510, but it burned out. :/ < 1252254203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An awesome piece of hardware, did some sort of 132x50 tiny-font display and everything. < 1252254207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dec.vecmar.com/products/productpage.asp?pid=2660-DEC_VT_510_Terminal < 1252254208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$219 < 1252254211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not exactly a rarity :P < 1252254212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why there is a useless indention in the "screen" (technically not the screen, but the area around it) on that mac... I mean one is for the trackball < 1252254215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the other one is useless < 1252254231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For shutting it? < 1252254235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows. < 1252254241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks nicer symmetrical. < 1252254245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe < 1252254251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a GreenArrays chip. I'd write a little OS thingy for it. :P < 1252254264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it's not rare, but I don't think I can justify getting another. < 1252254278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it did color, though, unlike the VT525. (Might be remembering wrongly too.) < 1252254284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Here's a comparison of GA32 and 2 GA4 packages. We're testing chips and making mock-ups for possible applications. Hopefully mock-ups will help raise funds for real boards. Testing, of course, goes on forever." < 1252254284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://colorforth.com/G32-G4.jpg < 1252254286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow they're small. < 1252254298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's what she said to the FSM.) < 1252254304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSM? < 1252254324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, how long would a 9 cell battery last with those? < 1252254339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... how fast are they? < 1252254349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flying Spaghetti Monster < 1252254352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And who knows. < 1252254355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course they aren't intended for the same purpose) < 1252254360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not very on their own, you assemble them into a supercomputer. < 1252254362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bunch of them in one. < 1252254367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252254369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're unclocked, so they all run at different speed. < 1252254371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*speeds < 1252254377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(native silicon speed, pretty much) < 1252254390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://colorforth.com/haypress2.jpg is an assembled littleputer thingy. < 1252254417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, don't you need clock for some stuff? Like making sure avoiding metastable state and such. < 1252254424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm no expert on this though) < 1252254433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Moore is clever. he'll have fixed it < 1252254435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ask ais523. < 1252254438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He knows that kind of stuff. < 1252254446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1252254516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you needed some kind of speed limiting to make some components work by making sure they didn't settle into a meta stable state or whatever. "flip-flops"? < 1252254558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know ... whatever I was going to ask < 1252254575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1252254603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1252254716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think ehird's question is still an unsolved problem. < 1252254890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your mom/ < 1252254892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1252254909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disasters! yay!! < 1252254993 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-43-236.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252255043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm curious as to an answer to AnMaster's q too < 1252255118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's not the first clockless CPU design; there have been other working-but-experimental models. < 1252255145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sorry, I've been afk for a while < 1252255145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what native silicon speed is, anyway < 1252255150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: np < 1252255152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's the issue? < 1252255185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : They're unclocked, so they all run at different speed. < 1252255185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *speeds < 1252255185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (native silicon speed, pretty much) < 1252255187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird, don't you need clock for some stuff? Like making sure avoiding metastable state and such. < 1252255189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : thought you needed some kind of speed limiting to make some components work by making sure they didn't settle into a meta stable state or whatever. "flip-flops"? < 1252255191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that < 1252255203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you do need speed limiting, due to slew rates < 1252255220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the metastable state only really happens with self-references, unless you're really unlucky < 1252255229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so how could that colourforth chip work as unclocked? < 1252255236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you try to run a circuit too fast, there just won't be time to change 1s to 0s < 1252255261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and asynchronous design doesn't imply that it's running max speed with nothing limiting; just that there isn't a global clock < 1252255276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is silicon speed quantifiable in hz? < 1252255282 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'll almost certainly be local synchronization or control circuits, either implemented clock-style or some other way < 1252255284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it vary < 1252255288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, and yes < 1252255293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252255300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's massively temperature-dependent, for one thing < 1252255300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it's like 50ghz normally or sth? < 1252255329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in one of our lab experiments, we chained 7 NOT gates in a loop, which for that sort of logic gave oscillation rather than a metastable state < 1252255348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the resulting oscillation was so fast that we could only just notice it on the student oscilloscopes, even setting them to the max frequency range < 1252255360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember offhand what value they go up to, though < 1252255376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Caltech designed and manufactured the world's first fully Quasi Delay Insensitive processor. During demonstrations, the researchers amazed viewers by loading a simple program which ran in a tight loop, pulsing one of the output lines after each instruction. This output line was connected to an oscilloscope. When a cup of hot coffee was placed on the chip, the pulse rate (the effective "clock rate") naturally slowed down to adapt to the worsening performance < 1252255376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the heated transistors. When liquid nitrogen was poured on the chip, the instruction rate shot up with no additional intervention." < 1252255403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty impressive < 1252255415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1252255423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, the massive slowdown in silicon-based circuits when they're heated is one of the more interesting demonstrations < 1252255434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: haha < 1252255437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no overclocking required < 1252255439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically makes all the components electronically leakier < 1252255444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Beef up the cooling < 1252255446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. There is no step two! < 1252255451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get more stray electrons doing random things, rather than what you want them to < 1252255485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what kind of range does it get at usual CPU temperature < 1252255491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double digit ghz? triple? < 1252255513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends a huge amount on the fabrication techniques used < 1252255543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to pay quite a lot extra to get a circuit going faster than a few tens to hundreds of megahertz, but ofc modern computers are much faster than that < 1252255566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is one of the reasons that modern processors are quite expensive as silicon chips go) < 1252255598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would assume the "instruction rate" would depend also on how the chip does whatever it does, i.e. how much logic there is to go through. < 1252255611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let's say AMD produced a clockless chip using typical desktop cooling < 1252255622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with as good as process as their x86 chips < 1252255629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the answer is I don't know < 1252255632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1252255641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is, though, that the circuitry would be more complex < 1252255650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the circuit would have to run more slowly as a result < 1252255660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, you'd have a considerably simpler motherboard < 1252255678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half of what a motherboard does is trying to match the wildly varying clock speeds of different bits of the system < 1252256049 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252256052 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252258053 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-15-239.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252258509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hudh/the_most_complex_computer_science_operating/ ;; BSD astroturf? :-P < 1252258611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.losethos.com/godsongs.html < 1252258611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1252258616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the what. < 1252258618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha wow. < 1252258628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing < 1252259019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I consult God regularly. One design decision He made was no child windows -- policy of one window per task. Another decision He made was 640x480 resolution. I posted a promise of sticking to this resolution. Then, God said He didn't mean permanantly, but I had already promised and God expects you to keep your word. Those were the main influences by God on my operating system. He's made little things, too." < 1252259036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("God's court is the supremest court. It's funny -- I hear these punks saying piracy is not theft. I'd like to see them tell God. I thought so!") < 1252259043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never fail to make me laugh, losethos < 1252259052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Wouldn't you believe in God if He talked to you? What's nutty about that?") < 1252259068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I downloaded opensound with a BSD license, but couldn't uncompress it. I even bought a new copy of winzip -- no luck." < 1252259070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tee hee < 1252259242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what format was the archive in? tgz? < 1252259572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly < 1252259576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1252259587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just so crazy :) < 1252259974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Winzip can do tgz, I think < 1252259977 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may've been tbz2 < 1252261812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If "opensound" means OSS, the download form lets you decide between .rpm, .deb and .tar.bz2. < 1252261886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reasonably new winzip should be able to do bzip2, I think. < 1252261893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He decided not to because it's evil BSD license < 1252261899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid valgrind, segfaulting on an unstripped binary :-( < 1252261905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it allows no commercial use therefore it's against people making money < 1252261935 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source downloads are .tar.bz2 only. < 1252262205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ouch, report a bug < 1252262219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also what the hell did you do to make it do that < 1252262228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing, it's CCBI2 < 1252262233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252262234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :valgrind ccbi -- segfault < 1252262239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strip -s ccbi && valgrind ccbi -- OK < 1252262247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, valgrind version? < 1252262250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.5 < 1252262256 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also happened with 3.4.something last week < 1252262258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase I guess this is some issue with reading debug info < 1252262278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I hope your valgrind is built with debug info so you can report a bug about it < 1252262306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll want a copy of the binary anyway so I won't bother < 1252262333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? I reported bugs to valgrind before. All but one fixed so far < 1252262346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, really good devs there who tries to figure out each bug < 1252262357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, a good test case is always a good idea < 1252262379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but failing that they seem to accept binaries that cause the issue too < 1252262392 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I don't want to give them a copy even of the binary :-P < 1252262403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not? < 1252262410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's open source after all < 1252262411 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 20M big anyway < 1252262415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, make a simple test case in D < 1252262418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet it isn't < 1252262434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ccbi2? you made the hg repo public iirc. < 1252262442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm pretty sure I have a copy somewhere < 1252262470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm yeah, I could try a non-secret copy < 1252262499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : HOW DARE YOU BE A CATHEDRAL < 1252262579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, evidently the non-secret one fails too < 1252262592 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18M yay < 1252262602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18 meggajits < 1252262612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: how's it secret :P < 1252262646 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a /problem/ for me though, I can just run valgrind on the stripped copy and then ask gdb unstripped_copy what the symbol at a given address is < 1252262652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: How isn't it :-P < 1252262668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252262742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strip --only-keep-debug makes it unexecutable, nice < 1252262755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cannot execute binary file" < 1252262862 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, it could be http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197988 < 1252262862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that what it should do, anyway? < 1252262890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? Isn't there non-debug not-needed-for-running stuff < 1252262893 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The intention is that this option will be used -- to create a two part executable. One a stripped binary which will occupy less space in RAM and in a distribution and the second a debugging information file [which is not supposed to be executed anyway]." < 1252262907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, okay. < 1252262971 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's no "strip everything not necessary for running, but do keep debug info" flag. < 1252263042 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, they had a fix for it (2M stack) but backed it out < 1252263066 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's time to build my own valgrind and see if that helps < 1252263131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, evidently the non-secret one fails too <-- what is the secret one? < 1252263582 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197988 presumably wasn't it after all, I made the stack size about 300 times bigger and it still doesn't work. < 1252263648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, don't use such insanely long symbols < 1252263659 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt they are that insanely long < 1252263661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me what your long symbol is < 1252263667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1252263671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW COME < 1252263673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether that even is the problem < 1252263675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you compile your binaries manually < 1252263677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheesh < 1252263679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kids these days < 1252263682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, in fact I use a compiler < 1252263685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1252263688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely not. < 1252263689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nm ./ccbi-unstrripped <-- look for the longest line < 1252263693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dobelx64 is manually compiled though < 1252263702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I do a sort by length somehow easily < 1252263715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm... I was thinking about that myself < 1252263720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awk print length | sort numeric < 1252263736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does one get length in awk, is the question < 1252263746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort numeric would be sort -n < 1252263750 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, evidently, length. How obvious. < 1252263773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :71997 is the longest. < 1252263777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, include the symbol too < 1252263781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also that is insanely long < 1252263783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no, it's 72k. < 1252263786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[awk '{print length" "$0}' | sort -n]], FWIW < 1252263802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[awk '{print length, $0} | sort -n]] is what I did < 1252263816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The symbol is apparently full of MD5 < 1252263822 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning it's been compressed quite a bit already. < 1252263833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, isn't md5 supposed to be one way? < 1252263836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some-end of the compiler does that to compress them. < 1252263851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is, so it's not fully clear where the symbol came from. < 1252263865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does have the initial part though, so I can guess. < 1252263865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NIIICE compression scheme < 1252263885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you get symbol names you need to compress to fit you are doing something wrong elsewhere ;P < 1252263885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Think about it. If this were reversible, it'd be another 10-100x bigger. < 1252263901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler is doing something wrong by emitting this. < 1252263909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep that is what I meant < 1252263910 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a known bug, of which the cause is not known. < 1252263916 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, it isn't. < 1252263916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1252263922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The symbol does exist < 1252263928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just shouldn't be emitted because it's compile-time only < 1252263948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant that the compiler is doing something wrong if it manages to construct a symbol that long < 1252263949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I mean, there is something that long there, it just should be discarded. < 1252263956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly, and you're wrong there. < 1252263983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or possibly the user is doing something wrong, < 1252263985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is presumably the concatenation of all fingerprints' instructions' identifiers' names < 1252263988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah Deewiant < 1252263990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's your problem < 1252263992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that < 1252263993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered that YOU fail < 1252263998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wow why? < 1252264014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I meant the common case where C++ generates long ones due to lots and lots of templates < 1252264017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think: boost < 1252264020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since they're all "ccbi.fingerprints.rcfunge98.trds.dosomethingcool" or the like, it's no surprise that this grows a bit. < 1252264022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like in the bug report) < 1252264036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective C++: "All the high level expressivity of C, with the lean and slim design of C++ together with the speed of Smalltalk." < 1252264046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD < 1252264054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hqbk/drag_mouse_to_rotate_look_at_tree_through_portals/c0cu74a) < 1252264088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, unable to view that flash? < 1252264097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me what it is < 1252264101 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think he is unable. < 1252264115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was linking to a comment, and no. < 1252264122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You chose not to install flash, so you don't see flash content. < 1252264129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a decision you have made and it is only because of you. < 1252264169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sum of all symbol lengths is 4895700 < 1252264176 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note, this is in the non-"-g" version < 1252264183 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is only 11M < 1252264227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The -g version goes up to 4974975; not that much more < 1252264295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this is what happens when you do compile-time functional programming with a crap compiler frontend ;-P < 1252264329 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-134-214.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1252264351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I DON'T LOVE YO < 1252264352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U < 1252264358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have hyperactive enterkey syndrome < 1252264386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be a linker fail in some way too, I guess, since they shouldn't be used from anywhere < 1252264458 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well one would hope not < 1252264468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youre WAY too young < 1252264472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU SAID THAT THE ONE OF THE TWO OF THE writing lines is boring < 1252264478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you would know, pedo < 1252264484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVING CLAIMED TO LOVE ME THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN HERE < 1252264487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am i even talking about? < 1252264509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could try nm on each *.o < 1252264510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find out < 1252264522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if it was linker only or not < 1252264525 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one .o < 1252264530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1252264549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try non-whole-program-insanely-fast mode? < 1252264577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have one *.o per compilation unit < 1252264735 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252264786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13M ccbi.instructions.templates.o < 1252264787 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1252264816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A 69-line file with four workarounds for compiler bugs < 1252264838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vim doesn't recognize it as D and thinks it's dtrace < 1252265055 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252265075 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-77-68.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252265076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/shanerichmond/100003402/google-ufo-logo-mystery-solved/ < 1252265104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, dtrace? < 1252265112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also what about emacs? < 1252265119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun's DTrace. < 1252265125 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't have emacs. < 1252265126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh that... < 1252265162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this just proves how crappy a) current C implementations and b) vim are < 1252265177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, AnMaster < 1252265183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being unable to detect a file type = VIM SUX EMACS RULZ < 1252265188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VIM PERHAPS EVEN DROOLZ < 1252265197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, it is horrible isn't it < 1252265305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 87.97-MB emacs doesn't seem to have D support at all. < 1252265311 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much for that. < 1252265337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :87 MB? what emacs variant is that? < 1252265352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"emacs-23.1-3" from Arch's repositories. < 1252265361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Emacs 23.1.1 < 1252265366 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs is a bit lacking in the different-file-types front; of course there's a major mode for just about anything, but they don't ship everything by default. < 1252265383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1252265395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they ship me a /var/games/emacs/snake-scores but not filetype support. < 1252265420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't install that part of emacs usually < 1252265421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ls /usr/share/emacs/23.1.50/lisp/progmodes/*.elc | wc -l" => 85, vs. "ls /usr/share/vim/vimcurrent/syntax/*.vim | wc -l" => 522. < 1252265451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls /usr/share/emacs/22.3/lisp/progmodes/*.elc | wc -l < 1252265451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :81 < 1252265451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1252265457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 / 521 < 1252265474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If you want to know the test: < 1252265476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if match(lines, '^#!\S\+dtrace\|#pragma\s\+D\s\+option\|:\S\{-}:\S\{-}:') > -1 < 1252265476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : setf dtrace < 1252265476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1252265476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : setf d < 1252265478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : endif < 1252265483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know the test. < 1252265499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't bothered to modify it. < 1252265505 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What part of the test is confusing it? < 1252265521 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the last < 1252265546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's \{-}? < 1252265576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equivalent to * but non-greedy, evidently < 1252265622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the line const C = "'" ~ (i=='\''?r"\'":i=='\\'?r"\\":i=='"'?"\"":""~i) ~ "'"; matches that last bit. < 1252265643 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently so; sounds like the Perl *? < 1252265659 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me, I don't know the details of Perl regexp that well. < 1252265682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes, the line const C = "'" ~ (i=='\''?r"\'":i=='\\'?r"\\":i=='"'?"\"":""~i) ~ "'"; matches that last bit. < 1252265684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1252265694 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has *?, +? and ?? as non-greedy variants of plain *, + and ?. < 1252265713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and {...}? for {...}. < 1252265723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, it does indeed. < 1252265723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Java borrowed thom too. < 1252265735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :them* < 1252265743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what the hell is that D line < 1252265747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, "thom". It sounds more impressive that way. < 1252265759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ is concatenate, the rest is C-compatible. < 1252265760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah ok :P < 1252265783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and r"" is a string without escape chars < 1252265784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ok... why the hell then :P < 1252265802 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I was trying to write "those" and "them" simultaneously. < 1252265824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do it as a series of nested ?: expressions? < 1252265845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to? < 1252265856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has to be constant, note < 1252265858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant as opposed to if else? < 1252265867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh hm < 1252265868 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if-else isn't a constant expression, is it now < 1252265873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but that isn't constant either < 1252265875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i is < 1252265895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if i is, then what is the point? < 1252265898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i is a template parameter, so it is indeed constant. < 1252265902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm < 1252265920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me, what the hell is it that you are doing :P < 1252265929 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That line is a workaround for http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1059 < 1252265988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This code is probably in your copy of CCBI2, too. < 1252266093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many open D compiler bugs are there? < 1252266114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the frontend I guess < 1252266114 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For DMD, 1005 < 1252266121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That includes frontend and backend < 1252266127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252266132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and in the ldc backend? < 1252266154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :53, but some of those might also be for their frontend fork < 1252266164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and how many compiler bug workarounds does CCBI2 contain? < 1252266194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep WORKAROUND | wc -l = 26 < 1252266197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1252266201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The secret one has 28 < 1252266205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1252266215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is so secret about it ;P < 1252266241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 of those are for bug 810, which was fixed in the penultimate release but hasn't been merged into LDC < 1252266250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252266253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that release breaks backwards compatibility with something else < 1252266288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how long since D reached stable version? < 1252266303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as defined by what upstream consider stable < 1252266306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and 8 of them are for a workaround in the build tool < 1252266318 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which could be removed if I switched to xfBuild, which I haven't bothered to do < 1252266350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 1.0 was called stable, although it actually wasn't (GRR 1.017, breaking several parts of my code) < 1252266359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... < 1252266362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that was beginning of 2007 < 1252266372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the D1 - D2 fork happened < 1252266418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit surprised that there are so many bugs still left in D after that time. Few devs working on it? < 1252266422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian has 77742 active bugs in 11741 packages; what a rat's nest of bugs. < 1252266443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, about 7 bugs per package? < 1252266457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently so. < 1252266475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any stats over which package has most? < 1252266488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be interesting to see how evenly distributed it is < 1252266521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The median number of bugs is 2, however. < 1252266581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Workaround stats for the DMD frontend in ccbi: 7 for 810, 5 for 1059, one each for 1640,1715,2288,2339,2991 < 1252266581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4804 packages with one bug, 2024 with two. Oh, and this is from the active-bugs index, so it's completely ignoring all packages with no bugs at all, which is not quite fair. :p < 1252266619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't think I have any in cfunge, and I had one in efunge. Yay for stable software :P < 1252266638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay for compilers with more than one maintainer :-P < 1252266641 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the top-three active bugs: < 1252266644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * apt (maintainer: APT Development Team ) has 828 bugs < 1252266644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that too < 1252266644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * installation-reports (maintainer: Debian Install Team ) has 2113 bugs < 1252266644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * wnpp (maintainer: wnpp@debian.org) has 3528 bugs < 1252266652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are some I more or less consider workarounds, like the double nested stringification macro < 1252266653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wnpp? < 1252266657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is in C standard < 1252266663 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, a meta-package < 1252266669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so possibly a stupid standard workaround < 1252266677 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like installation-reports presumably is < 1252266690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the wnpp meta-package for? < 1252266698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/search?q=wnpp < 1252266714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252266855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "installation-reports" bugs are I think general "problems installing Debian" issues. < 1252266888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The apt bugs seem reasonably real, though. < 1252266918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is just a software everyone use < 1252266923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still that many? hm < 1252266929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it counts minor and wishlist and other such things. < 1252266937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah true < 1252266961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Outstanding bugs -- Wishlist items; Unclassified (243 bugs)" is the largest single category for apt. < 1252266994 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1252267000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 7 other packages in the top-10 bugs list are aptitude, debbugs, dpkg, emacs21, evolution, iceweasel and linux-2.6. Pretty popular stuff. < 1252267021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd've expected xorg in that list < 1252267042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's split in too many parts, I think. :p < 1252267052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, heh < 1252267100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :952 bugs in everything matching /xorg/, that would make it replace apt in the top-3. < 1252267115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though not if counting apt+aptitude+dpkg together. < 1252267190 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :227 bugs in xserver-xorg-core, 178 bugs in xserver-xorg-video-intel; those are the only two three-digit numbers there. < 1252267237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a funky graph at http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ < 1252267285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A4rexr cxi6r < 1252268281 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fried rice you made yourself is quite delicious. < 1252268308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not making it yourself inherently reduces its flavour. True story. < 1252268315 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truth. < 1252268319 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1252268343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Restaurants like covering it in soy sauce. Far too much salt, glutamates. < 1252268355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. I love soy sauce. < 1252268371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some soy sauce adds nice flavor. < 1252268384 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252268388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding cups of soy sauce makes for a dish saltier than potato chips. < 1252268523 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asset.soup.io/asset/0426/5459_3af7.jpeg < 1252268632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that was... almost funny :\ < 1252268644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But actually? :-P < 1252268656 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not funny, or something more < 1252268664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1252268665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needs moar wok. < 1252268673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theoretically it should have been funny < 1252268676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it just isn't < 1252269271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blut < 1252269411 0 :boily!n=boily@dsl-67-230-147-103.tor.primus.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1252269507 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-44-62.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252269511 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E621... a.k.a. MSG... Wasn't it causative for overweight in animal experiments and associated with overweight in humans? :-) < 1252269511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252269516 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.72.195 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252269517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1252269546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what's your point < 1252269602 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To that "Far too much salt, glutamates". And who cares about salt (apart from bad taste) unless one is exceptionally sensitive to sodium. < 1252269640 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistically signficant != actually significant. < 1252269704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: of course he means taste... < 1252269708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can't taste salt? < 1252269721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: "Bad taste" is the primary complaint. < 1252269758 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, except that many have attitude: Eek... Salt (same type as eek... fat). < 1252269775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm complaining about glutamates in general, not specifically MSG. (soy sauce has naturally-occuring glutamates. They overpower everything else when too much is used.) < 1252269838 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soy sauce proabably also has other nasty stuff in it (that screws with things like nutrient intake)... < 1252269865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely. I'm just complaining about how it tastes bad when you use tons of it, though. < 1252269873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soy sauce is delicious though, who cares < 1252269924 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "assocated with"... As some research reports would say, MSG consumption is a risk factor for being overweight. < 1252269958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the things that have MSG added have many other reasons for being bad for you. < 1252269968 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1252269985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to be able to survive on just about anything < 1252270060 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but that MSG-weight association seems independent of that... < 1252270122 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, most stuff in stores that contains MSG contains quite nasty stuff. < 1252270145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure I can physically get overweight < 1252270153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been underweight my whole life no matter how much I eat < 1252270153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1252270255 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ever wondered why GI of fructose is so low compared to glucose even if both are very closely related)? < 1252270271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never in my life, Ilari. < 1252270498 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252270522 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glucose GI: 100 (defintion), Fructose GI: ~20. < 1252270541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling Ilari is involved in some sort of nutritionist field < 1252270721 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is using Wolfram alpha < 1252270737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram Alpha doesn't help you care about stuff < 1252270773 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems that most of current "nutrion science" is total garbage... < 1252270790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1252270820 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nutrion < 1252270910 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Badly designed research, conclusions that do not follow from data, bad media reporting, etc... < 1252271506 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Standard trick: Send embragoed (keep secret until publication of the actual study) press release about some study to press (of course, distorting even further from already distorted conclusions). The press then distort it even further and then all give press without reading what the actual study says. < 1252271874 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course this might come on top of study design so bad that one wonders wheither incompetence is sufficient to explain it. < 1252271985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: it's a conspiracy! < 1252271993 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1252272131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252272419 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the funniest was rating various diets based on model which compared them to modern food guidelines... And one of the diets there was Atkins... One can guess how well it fared... < 1252272450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's that funny < 1252272622 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there was effects on cholesterol computed for compared diets. And let's just say that those values were not sanity-checked against real-world values... < 1252272674 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252272710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: do you like research this much into absolutely everything :D < 1252272785 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252272858 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I come across... I have seen lots of quite wild stuff. Including stuff that would have serious HSQ if the math would check out (I usually skip the heavy math on first reading). < 1252272877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expand HSQ? < 1252272886 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy Shit Quotent. < 1252272902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1252272906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Quotient < 1252273036 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff like deriving Special Relativity, something close to General Relativity and some cosmological stuff (without having to invoke dark energy) out of model with *absolute* time. < 1252273059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'all crazy :) < 1252273159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to replace the batteriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies eseseseseseses in this keyboard, because it keeps repeating the same key which just closed all my browser windows and did ← that. < 1252273177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I recommend you do so. < 1252273186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that was amusing. < 1252273226 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does that remind me of Linux doublecore keyboard bug? :-) < 1252273272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every key repeated or something? < 1252273293 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every keypress appeared twice. < 1252273309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah. < 1252273312 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1252273317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How'd they manage that? < 1252273322 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1252273349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: run the keyboard code on both cores < 1252273361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you manage that accidentally < 1252273363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it notifies each core about it, they both send it to the rest of the system < 1252273364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oops" < 1252273372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: corespawn(kb);corespawn(kb); < 1252273379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it runs everything on every core by default in that section < 1252273382 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :// OOPS, didn't mean to do that < 1252273384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's a general-stuff-for-the-cpu < 1252273390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which each cpu core needs < 1252273395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they had the kb in that for single core < 1252273400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without realising it would break with more cores < 1252273407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's possible < 1252273443 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something OS-visible that's shared between cores but not been processors in SMP configuration... < 1252273452 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*between < 1252273539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a multi-core system you can program the APICs to sensibly route interrupts; I could believe they can be configured to deliver keyboard interrupts to both cores accidentally. < 1252273570 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wouldn't expain it. < 1252273588 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming the keyboard interface is similar to what PS/2 used). < 1252273623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual pentium III, fuck yeah < 1252273655 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double-IRQ would mess with it for sure, but at least PS/2 interface suppiled the real scancode data from I/O port). < 1252273697 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first IRQ would read the key and the second would then get nothing. Or they both would get parts and really mess things up. < 1252273793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irky IRQ quirk < 1252273801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are interrupt-based USB endpoints, but I have no clue how those work really. < 1252274209 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From /proc/interrupts: LOC: 657 698 369 (Timer), IRQ17: 367 783 122 (NIC), IRQ14: 35 914 225 (IDE), IRQ1: 8 306 061 (Keyboard), IRQ15: 170 134 (IDE), IRQ23: 1 007 (USB), IRQ16: 587 (USB), IRQ12: 323 (Mouse), IRQ0: 44 (Timer), IRQ4: 7 (Serial), IRQ6: 4 (floppy), IRQ8: 3 (RTC). < 1252274211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your end point. < 1252274374 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Racked 72 more IRQ6's backing up some source code. :-) < 1252274710 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Esolang that has 94 no-arguments operators (!-~) and every previous character affects decoding of the next... Would make code totally unreadable & unmaintainable. < 1252274739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds a bit like Malbolge < 1252274743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the decoding bit < 1252274795 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that malbolge also scrambles code when running... < 1252274972 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably best would be language that could be proven to be TC with non-constructive proof but that wouldn't have any easy constructive proof that it is TC. < 1252275075 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or where the size of programs really explode when they get more complex (but still its TC). < 1252275220 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even /proc/interrupts is so complicated nowadays: http://pastebin.com/m2c5bc2b4 < 1252275268 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There used to be just IRQ lines from 0 to 15 on a PC, and that was enough! Uphill both ways! < 1252275295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is even more complicated: http://pastebin.com/f7f0bb0ca < 1252275313 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCI-MSI-edge? HPET-MSI-edge? < 1252275320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More cores, more numbers. < 1252275321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although less IRQs evidently < 1252275336 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead I have "machine check" stuff < 1252275410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MSI is that PCI/PCIE message-signaled-interrupt thing, with the device sending a message over the bus to cause an interrupt, instead of having physical lines for that. < 1252275419 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are just polls. Actual machine check events are worse. < 1252275453 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252275514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and "lspci"; at one point there was this one PCI bus, but now lspci lists five. < 1252275560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have three vacant PCI Express ports and one vacant PCI bridge < 1252275576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and a PCI Express root port, whatever that is. < 1252275658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252275662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m18086ab0 -- I would like to, for example, know why the bt878 card has a different bus number there. < 1252275670 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This computer has 4 USB ports. And according to lspci, 3 USB1 UCHI controllers plus one USB2 ECHI controller... < 1252275698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to "lspci -t" that bus 04 is connected via that 00:14.4 "PCI to PCI Bridge". < 1252275747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And buses 01, 02 and 03 go through the more reasonable PCI bridges 00:01/02/06 up there; they even have some sort of labels there. < 1252275834 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCI bridge on card itself? < 1252275856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it'd be "ATI Technologies Inc SBx00" then. < 1252275893 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What that SBx00 even is? < 1252275907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sound Blaster from ATI? :-P < 1252275910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably "SB600 and SB700", product numbers. < 1252275914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :South Bridge, I guess. < 1252275939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, it's an ATI motherboard isn't it < 1252275942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1252275946 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.72.195 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252276122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Intel Atom box has a significantly shorter lspci output; much less cruft there. < 1252276271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what window managers are you darned kids running these days < 1252276297 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IceWM. < 1252276314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome, still. < 1252276321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icewm would be wonderful if it had just a lil more polish < 1252276372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Openbox < 1252276531 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some bugs fixed, like that "lose input focus" bug. < 1252276560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :openbox is so strange. why do you have to keep some space free to get a menu to do anything? that's a ridiculous UI < 1252276563 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sometimes when focused window is closed, no window gets the focus). < 1252276566 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XMONAD < 1252276580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAPSLOCKMONAD < 1252276587 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Wut? < 1252276605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wut yourself < 1252276613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keeping some space free wut < 1252276625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fact is that you have to hunt for a bit of desktop < 1252276636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the menu? Just bind it to a key < 1252276639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is ridiculous: Desktop is space that should be filled with useful things < 1252276656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Pressing a key then directly taskswitching to the mouse seems inefficient/ < 1252276658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1252276660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it on Win-esc myself, although I do always have some desktop free in the corners next to my toolbar as well < 1252276678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, your problem is that you use the mouse ;-) < 1252276688 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "losing input focus" is annoying because then "next window" and "previous window" don't work. To give something focus from keyboard, one has to use window list. < 1252276707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just always seemed to me like openbox is a WM designed to make pretty translucent screenshots with small fonts /shrug < 1252276728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it is, but it works for me with 0% translucency. :-P < 1252276736 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main WM menu is Capslock+M here. :-) < 1252276769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish the automatic window managers actually made an attempt at intelligently managing them < 1252276775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "hurr, one to the left rest to the right" < 1252276779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "hurr, fibonacci spiral" < 1252276938 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the windows don't spin by themselves... < 1252276947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1252276965 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One WM had key combo which made current window start to spin... < 1252276982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1252276995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet sawfish :P < 1252277052 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same WM also had stuff like window rotation with three degrees of freedom, window zooming (seperate from resizing) and that... < 1252277077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point Enlightenment was the WM that seemed most focused on the pretty tricks. < 1252277104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1252277111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enlightenment has always seemed crappy to me < 1252277135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if E17 is out yet :P < 1252277147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Enlightenment allows you to have a grid of workspaces called virtual desktops. Switching between them is achieved by hurling the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen, at which the desktop appears to slide across to reveal the next. The maximum grid size is currently 8 by 8 desktops, and you can have 32 grids (each with a different background), making 2048 total possible desktop spaces." < 1252277151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1252277152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so surprised < 1252277167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 2048 desktops, fuck yeah < 1252277190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Users can enable a map of the desktops, in case they get lost, which is called the pager.) < 1252277197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enlightenment: So you can get lost in your desktops. < 1252277214 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2048 virtual desktops? I only have 11. :-( < 1252277218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11? < 1252277221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're crazy < 1252277237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DR16 has been the choice of power users and artists due to its low overhead, highly graphical, widely theme-able, extremely configurable, yet unobtrusive interface." < 1252277247 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(named "F2"-"F12"). < 1252277280 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess why there isn't "F1". < 1252277288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help? < 1252277365 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, CAPSLOCK+SHIFT+Fx hits three-key same-row/column restriction with x = 1. < 1252277377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whut? < 1252277381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, keys. < 1252277398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on what keyboard is capslock+shift+fx comfortable < 1252277402 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, one can't hit Capslock+Shift+F1. < 1252277419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can, with difficulty :) < 1252277433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a suitably skewed perspective I could claim to have 216 virtual desktops, since there's six independently selectable tags on all three monitors, and 6^3 = 216. Though from an even more wonky perspective I guess I could claim 262144, since you can select any combination of tags, and (2^6)^3 = 262144. < 1252277445 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capslock+Shift+F1 just doesn't work. < 1252277454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: howso < 1252277509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess he means with a "on this keyboard" qualifier. < 1252277513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean 'pataphysically? < 1252277518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or physically < 1252277521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or softwhysically < 1252277534 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one hits three keys at once, the keys must either be in distinct rows in scan matrix or in distinct columns in scan matrix. < 1252277544 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise the third key won't register. < 1252277553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that is true with my keyboard, at least... < 1252277634 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the keys are located in scan matrix may vary depending on keyboard. But for any keyboard that uses scan matrix, that three-key restriction appiles. < 1252277653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ó_ó I've never heard about this before < 1252277658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do make keyboards completely without that problem; and I think quite many keyboards put the modifier keys "independently" recognizable. < 1252277663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems sucky. < 1252277677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the more expensive keyboards don't do that. < 1252277741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it depends on what sort of "expensive" it is; if it's just expensive-because-it-has-stylish-design they might not care. It's not like it hurts "normal use", especially if the modifier keys always work. < 1252277772 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the key-jamming problem is not a new one; Star Control came with a keyboard testing thing you could use to pick up keys so that two people can play the melee game without problems. < 1252277774 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much the only use where the scan matrix layout really matters is hotseat multiplayer games. < 1252277791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like mechanical keyswitches < 1252277794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expensive < 1252277836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think full n-key rollover is very common even in expensive-like-that keyboards, but I don't have any empirical data on this. < 1252277842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29 is about it. < 1252277846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not related to n-key rollover, is it? < 1252277857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just being able to hit a bunch of keys at once, not neccessarily in the same row/column. < 1252277864 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least on this keyboard, left shift is part of normal scan matrix. Capslock+F1 is possible, Capslock+Shift+F1 isn't. < 1252277864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*necessarily < 1252277960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason you can't hit multiple keys is because of the matrix-style design. And it makes it sometimes rather nontrivial to find out which keys you can do. < 1252278001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never had a rollover problem < 1252278005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On this logi-illu one, I can hit 'q', 'w', 'e' and 'r' successfully, but if I keep those four pressed 't' won't register any more. < 1252278011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type at like 100wpm, but only ever hit one or two keys at a time. < 1252278051 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On this keyboard, two key columns in main block (alphabet, numbers & co) are on same scan matrix column. < 1252278071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like it's an issue when typing. But when you have one person using wasd and a couple of "fire" and "special" buttons controlling one car, and another one with the cursor keys and another couple of buttons, it's trickier. < 1252278120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the second row I apparently can do 'a', 's', 'd', 'f' and 'g', but with all those down 'h' will no longer register. < 1252278136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 3-key rollover is considered essential for English touch typing. [3] < 1252278139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—Wikipedia < 1252278147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't make any sense to me < 1252278171 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here second row registers only up to 'f'. 'g' won't register anymore. < 1252278215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure the mechanical design does come to play too, when it comes to the speed how fast keys rise up and so on. Can't say I've had trouble *typing* with even the cheapest keyboards I've used. < 1252278238 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typing so fast that previous key doesn't have time to register as relased before next is pressed? < 1252278317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is certainly no gaming keyboard, I can't seem to find any two wasd-shaped sets of keys where you could successfully record all eight simultaneous keys; it just goes up to six. < 1252278370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never tried to press eight keys in a game at once. < 1252278376 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If keys register on positive edge, and there is no ghosting/jamming, then release delay (if not enough to cause false autorepeat), won't usually be problematic. < 1252278392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Maybe you haven't been multiplayering much with a single keyboard, then? < 1252278413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's true. < 1252278419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally use crazy invention like : Inter - net! < 1252278422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*net ! < 1252278456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: meh, hjkl-shaped > wasd-shaped < 1252278496 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure that's true for gaming, especially if the game is usually played with cursor keys and the second player just needs a suitable replacement. < 1252278506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hjkl sucks. < 1252278510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inter net! But it's so expensive, and my parents don't want me to keep the phone line busy all the time, and my 2400 bps modem gets so bad latency, and... well, no game supports that sort of thing anyway. < 1252278521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasd is perfectly intuitive, hjkl is just being contrarian for the fuck of it. < 1252278544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: just hook up a modem and dial a friend running a Doom game < 1252278553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use ordinary telephone numbers! < 1252278563 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second in main block is usually ijkl, with actions being something like 'b'. < 1252278585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that, but it's still expensive, and has the phone-line-busy problem, and anyway only a tiny fraction of games supported modem-based multiplayer. < 1252278588 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(first being wsad, with actions being tabs, and various left modifiers). < 1252278626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: just run a looooooong ps/2 cable to your friend < 1252278629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to another keyboard < 1252278634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila! in-ter net < 1252278706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warcraft 2 did, and ROTT, and Descent, and obviously Doom; but none of the cave-flying games like kops, v-wing, luola; eh, I guess that genre is not so widespread outside Finland, really. < 1252278728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those sound fun < 1252278747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slicks'n'Slide, too... actually I think that's a Finnish invention too. < 1252278755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the game mechanics of these... cave-flying ames < 1252278762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.luolamies.org/software/luola/screens/screen6.png ;; looks great < 1252278765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you just lik... fly < 1252278767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*like < 1252278770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*looks great < 1252278783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and shoot your friends with a multitude of weapons. < 1252278810 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least if you still have flyable ship)... < 1252278821 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1252278830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, and if you hit things you die? < 1252278832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; v-wing lets you continue with just your "guy" when the ship goes boom. < 1252278851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on settings, but usually bumping into things does take up some of your health. < 1252278860 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the levels are usually bitmap files (or a few of them) so there's quite a variety of levels available. < 1252278863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds fun. < 1252278877 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should just all play falling sand < 1252278878 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ship from Luola has ejector seat... < 1252278897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :falling sand kind of doesn't have any game mechanics < 1252278909 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly true < 1252278915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso < 1252278921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not vanilla sand < 1252278926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other versions < 1252278935 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252278942 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the standard equipment for player moving on foot includes parachute and ninja rope... < 1252278948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hmm like < 1252278953 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus some kind of peashooter. < 1252278959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ninja rope stolen from Worms or the other way around? < 1252278972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dgame.com < 1252278975 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1252278981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid make is slowing my computer down < 1252278993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dgame.com < 1252278993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you need, when you need it < 1252279011 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stolen poorly from Worms. The one in Worms is much more useful. < 1252279027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well, the whole flying thing is basically identical to the super sheep in worms ofc < 1252279035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except... shooting < 1252279043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i doubt that was stolen < 1252279047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's pretty obvious < 1252279077 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxSand < 1252279082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have wxsan < 1252279082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1252279085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no game mechanics. < 1252279092 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the mods do < 1252279143 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in Luola if ship got destroyed and the player got to docking pad on foot, one got new ship... < 1252279179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION downloads this luola thing in the hope it has single-player AI
< 1252279197 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also modes where players start on foot and level has N (or N-1 in another) ships scattered around. < 1252279279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also that "N players run around with Worms-style ninja-rope and shoot the others" game; or I think at least two of them. Don't remember the names. < 1252279348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's called "Worms" < 1252279393 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liero was ~first such game with 2-players. I have also played one such game over the net (back when I had 56K, which was actually 33.6k modem). < 1252279418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Liero is ridiculously fun < 1252279478 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also played Liero on Xbox (using the standard Xbox controllers). Didn't run very well. < 1252279494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liero's ninja rope is a bitch, though < 1252279511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact all ninja ropes apart from Worms 2 onward seem to really suck < 1252279548 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one in Luola is probably the worst I have seen. < 1252279611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, Liero and some clone of it. < 1252279648 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't there at least 3 OSS one that allow N players? Soldat, NiL and Bankiz... < 1252279666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right MoleZ; and it was in fact the one that came before Liero. < 1252279716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liero -- wikipedia knows all this important information. < 1252279786 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sometimes programming course has project subject to make (simple) Liero clone... Some years ago one such course produced two more liero clones... < 1252279821 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably not found anywhere anymore)... < 1252279829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, Luola has no AI. < 1252279835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or networked multiplayer. < 1252279862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What that means: you need some real friends. :p < 1252279867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfft. < 1252279868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As if. < 1252279899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kops is open source nowadays, too: http://jet.ro/kops/ -- it's a bit different from the other cave-fliers, though, may be an acquired taste. < 1252279904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: (as opposed to all the chatbots I talk to in here?) < 1252279948 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But Kops won't have an AI either, or networked multiplayer for that matter.) < 1252280006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kops is also the reason why I wrote that "VNC client with keyboard only", since we needed to play it with two keyboards to avoid the multiple-keys issues. < 1252280022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252280103 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, Xinput won't let you treat another keyboard as just another input device? :-) < 1252280131 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was just the DOS version back then. < 1252280156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it ran under Windows, even with a VNC server running. < 1252280160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had some palette issues, though. < 1252280262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy nowadays since you can just stick in more and more USB keyboards. < 1252280273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INFINITE DAISY-CHAINED USB KEYBOARDS < 1252280295 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know whether Windows handles multiple USB keyboards, but one can always hope. < 1252280327 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For those that like to do the same with mice, there's MPX... :-) < 1252280394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also just have multiple single-pointer-controlling devices and have the players fight with it. < 1252280403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPX + pointer warping = Trippy, man. < 1252281408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a