< 1252369570 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort of wish I couldn't tell what it says. < 1252369801 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should give this person the ball. < 1252369817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But right now, I'm trying to apply brain bleach to my eyes < 1252370406 0 :iano!n=iosgood@076-076-146-052.pdx.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252371132 0 :iano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252376785 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-110-078.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252377557 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252378714 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252378739 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is something wrong with my internet, I don't know who to ask (technical support says nothing is wrong on their end). < 1252378753 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inbound connections to port 70 don't work (it worked yesterday) < 1252378783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firewall update? < 1252378797 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any software changes? Firewall changes? Router changes? Do inbound connections to other ports work? < 1252378840 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O no, I checked everything. The router settings are correct, the service works (connecting to localhost works), inbound connections on port 80 still work, outbound connections on port 70 work, and when using a proxy I get the same results. < 1252378904 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked the DNS, tried stopping and restarting the service, rebooting the router, everything else too. < 1252378948 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it worked yesterday. < 1252378957 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I ask for help? < 1252378973 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't know, so I tried this channel for nearly no reason < 1252379167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pandora stores passwords in plain-text! < 1252379207 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no software change or firewall change or router change. < 1252379238 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port 25 doesn't work either < 1252379276 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technical support says they didn't change anything, but I'm not sure they know about it correctly. < 1252379277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you on a university/college network? < 1252379282 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm at home. < 1252379309 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port 25 isn't always open anyways (I just started the SMTP server to test it, and it failed) < 1252379316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/plain-text// < 1252379339 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But port 70 is definitely work, by localhost, but not by remote. Port 80 works local and remote. < 1252379413 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it worked fine yesterday. < 1252379688 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252380761 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine < 1252382233 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1252385896 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1252385903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""Ubuntu", an african word meaning, "Gentoo is too hard for me"" < 1252385986 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252387261 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252387401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1252388535 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252388811 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252391641 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252392180 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252392434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: that joke's normally done with Debian rather than Gentoo < 1252392648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "African word for 'can't install Debian'" is the form I'm more familiar with. < 1252392743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.) < 1252392793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I did not know is that "ubuntu" apparently also means: "To ejaculate on a womans face." < 1252393837 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1252395499 0 :FireFly!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-pvxcqrirxlvuishl JOIN :#esoteric < 1252395607 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252395630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the structure of bantu languages in mind, ubuntu and gentu could easily be forms of the same word... not so with debian. < 1252395656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bantu and ubuntu are, for one thing) < 1252395681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: urbandictionary is full of duff meanings < 1252396379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1252396624 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-ykzmydlgwvhsrkre JOIN :#esoteric < 1252396799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1252396800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1252398440 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252398941 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252399396 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252401651 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252401959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt < 1252401966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, I don't think it's actually written in brainfuck < 1252401980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still trying to figure out if the name's a reference or not, though < 1252403695 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1252405276 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-widbmolsuaxshxmd JOIN :#esoteric < 1252405338 0 :FireFly!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-rcaonzhbvsvrqtss JOIN :#esoteric < 1252405946 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1252407118 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-095-208-140-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252411020 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1252413024 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252415018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it seems that Virgin Media have some sort of custom search page that comes up for pages like http://nosuchdomain.invalid < 1252415031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily it has an opt-out which AFAICT a) actually works, and b) doesn't use cookies < 1252415564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the slang term for that to "do a Verisign"? < 1252415723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I wonder how many $'s are implied by all the legal text at http://www.icann.org/en/general/litigation-verisign.htm < 1252415747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For the lawyers that generated the text, I mean.) < 1252415965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if .invalid has an entry for it in the root DNS servers < 1252415979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a real TLD, after all; but there are (deliberately) no sites on it < 1252416264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least k.root-servers.net just says NXDOMAIN. < 1252416289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you choose k? < 1252416322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the Kewlest root-server of them all. < 1252416474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has this fancy anycast distributed thing: http://k.root-servers.org/ < 1252419422 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252419611 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: good for you < 1252419622 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ISP has an opt-out, it doesn't use cookies, the real deal < 1252419625 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, it doesn't work < 1252419635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc I just opted-out everyone else on the same connection < 1252419638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's probably a good thing < 1252419670 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clicking the button didn't do anything < 1252419673 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I switched to opendns < 1252419693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the NXDOMAIN-replacement pages seem to have long caches < 1252419699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but new nonexistent pages work fine < 1252420044 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252420047 0 :MizardX-!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252420078 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1252420510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252420584 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252422341 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1252422763 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252423095 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"reboot" < 1252423353 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1252423646 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1252424741 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252425149 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252425497 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-24-243.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252425659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc :) < 1252427130 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-095-208-140-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252427338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi, just home. < 1252427341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago < 1252427342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1252427750 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-27-38.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252428436 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252429570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252429824 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have ELF and DWARF; where's ORC? < 1252430105 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always ORK < 1252430132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is DWARF an executable format? < 1252430275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a debug info format < 1252430338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I assume DWARF was a joke on ELF? < 1252430363 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I assume so as well < 1252430408 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiki says it was, apparently < 1252430412 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ORC should be something suitably evil. perhaps some kind of report format for pointy-haired bosses? < 1252430428 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be the Windows executable format < 1252430447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, isn't that PE? < 1252430454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... yes, it is < 1252430473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the three dots? < 1252430496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed you were refuting my statement < 1252430520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think there's a *whoosh* hidden inside the first dot there < 1252430528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252430540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop using such a lossy compression scheme < 1252430584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not among my habits to tell people "you missed/misunderstood my joke" < 1252430598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather just assume they're idiots and leave it at that < 1252430830 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252430871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does me scoring top marks at a math exam signify I wonder... < 1252430957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ehird isn't here. guess that is why he hasn't made any foul remark yet < 1252431277 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1252431808 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252432621 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got an idea for esolang. The actual runtime would execute code in tree form. Before running, the source would be run through preprocessor which built the tree for running, also containing operations to modify what's already built (move substrees, copy subtrees, delete subtrees). So that for any program X and tree Y, there exists Z such that X is prefix of Z and processes to Y. < 1252432790 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-152-21.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252432828 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sheds a tear in memory of Malcom, the 1TB hard drive, who died before his time :'( < 1252432887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any algorithms that have an exponential memory upper bound but a linear upper time bound? < 1252432901 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1252432913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, ah, as I suspected < 1252433045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot use more memory than time in a sequential algorithm < 1252433087 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the other way around, you can't use more than exponentially more time than you use memory. < 1252433112 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So PSPACE is subset of EXPTIME. < 1252433206 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, the preprocessor could patch anything already built into anything. < 1252433412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what preprocessor? < 1252433418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C one? < 1252433429 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For an esolang... < 1252433449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1252433521 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its just at idea stage... One has to define what operations are supported and what their semantics are. < 1252433628 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the preproc, insert node, delete subtree, copy subtree, move subtree could be good set of operations... < 1252433645 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and alter node. < 1252433688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alter ego < 1252433838 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have various versions of source in one file, with next patching the previous, and the code quickly becomes too convoluted to follow... < 1252433844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what about paste subtree < 1252433849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it some evil editing script like < 1252433884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a copy-and-paste preprocessor XD < 1252433903 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, cut-n-paste => move, copy-n-paste => copy. < 1252433963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, yes hm but it should only have one copy buffer to hold the thing < 1252433991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should be as an edit script or so < 1252434000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly recordable XD < 1252434052 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The edit preprocessor being complicated isn't the idea. The idea is to make the actual program (parse tree) effectively unfollowable by patching it bit-by-bit. < 1252434064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1252434095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, it would be another interesting preprocessor that was basically copy-and-paste operation (what then is the point of a preprocessor one could ask!) < 1252434116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, would you have macros? < 1252434177 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably no... Would make things too logical. < 1252434221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, depends on the macros... I mean you can make quite a mess with both C macros and LISP macros < 1252434340 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff like: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "World"; ADD 1.2 PRINT "!"; ADD 1.1 PRINT " "; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello"; ALTER 1.2 PRINT ", "; < 1252434433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm, what is 1.1 and so on < 1252434440 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Node pointer. < 1252434509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252434536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, obfuscation seems rather optional here, I mean, nothing prevents you from writing non-obfuscated programs? < 1252434567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello world"; < 1252434569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume < 1252434572 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252434611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, one thing that could make it more confusing would be "RENAME SEQUENCE" < 1252434613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so < 1252434617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to name 1 something else < 1252434639 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; ... It also tends to become funky when building larger trees... < 1252434649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok that is true < 1252434679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what is the add sequence thing btw? < 1252434687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it case sensitive? < 1252434712 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SEQUENCE is just "run nodes below here in order" operator. < 1252434726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252434759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, this some similar to my SQL+HTML combination kind of < 1252434760 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it could be 'ADD 1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; if there was impiled SEQUENCE at root level. < 1252434781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, declaring a tree through a complex upper caseish language < 1252434833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was like INSERT THE ELEMENT p INTO THE ELEMENT body WHICH IS A CHILD OF html < 1252434845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then references to first and second and so on < 1252434865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was made to be very verbose English) < 1252434892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember exact syntax I had, and the irc logs from then are on archive cd < 1252434893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1252434902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometime in this channel, 2008 or 2009 < 1252434941 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the references inside operations should maybe resolved when encountering them. Would do really funky things to code structure if one of the operations was GOTO... < 1252434966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252435000 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't jump forward unless you make some really messy code. < 1252435049 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course there would be equivalent to COBOL ALTER keyword: ALTER x.y.z GOTO a.b.c;... :-) < 1252435113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"NVG server going down in a moment" < 1252435117 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALTER from COBOL is quite probably the nastiest operation (from mainintance p.o.v.) ever seen in any mainstream language. < 1252435170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I don't know what this ALTER does < 1252435209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what about the actual language though, the bit that will then run < 1252435220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be quite complex too IMO < 1252435244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you could just run preprocessor and dump the result to understand how the program worked < 1252435261 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change target of GOTO. And it had really nice interactions with segmentation. ALTER + segmentation => run away screaming... < 1252435262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and IMO goto is hell even from a coding point of view < 1252435280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, segmentation as in segmented memory on x86? < 1252435290 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like manual swapping. < 1252435295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1252435377 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obsoleted by virtual memory. Well, unless one wants to make stuff unmaintainable by mixing segmentation with ALTER. < 1252435444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so why would segmentation and ALTER interact badly? < 1252435490 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, if segment containg ALTERed GOTOs was swapped out, the modifications to jumps were lost, so when reloading it, the jumps reset to their default destinations. < 1252435502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1252435523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that sounds like "reset" rather than "swap out whatever is in memory" < 1252435580 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swap out really freed the memory occupied by segment. < 1252435628 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there would be space to load another segment in. < 1252435679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, and discarded any data in it? < 1252435732 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One probably also could swap out data segments. Those didn't reset when reloading. < 1252435833 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it assumed that code segments are always 'clean' (and ALTER broke that assumption). < 1252435956 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember, this was on era when even virtual memory wasn't common on mainframes... < 1252436047 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even mainframes didn't have multitasking but ran the tasks batch-style. < 1252436384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, have you ever coded COBOL? < 1252436410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, let me clarify that < 1252436421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever had a job where you coded COBOL? < 1252436492 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't coded COBOL. Just ran across that information about COBOL once. < 1252436591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL was actually less awful than many people give it credit. It was designed long before we had *any* clue what makes a good programming language. < 1252436605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only other languages out there were the languages that COBOL was based on. < 1252436611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and assembly. < 1252436700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORTRAN. < 1252436718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algol and co. of course as well. < 1252436893 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252436920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about LISP? < 1252436923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it later on? < 1252436954 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-27-38.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252437103 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was around the same time < 1252437133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252437449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello world! < 1252437455 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :118 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-----. [459] < 1252437468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello world! < 1252437470 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [315] < 1252437475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello world! < 1252437478 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :126 ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++>+><<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>++. [601] < 1252437532 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252437546 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252437655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that work < 1252437836 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-103-56.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252437876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does what work? < 1252437920 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf_txtgen, how does it do its thing < 1252437965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, genetic algorithm based on the form "set constant, set some other constants based on the first, print stuff and use +/- as needed as you go along" < 1252437985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Genetic? heh < 1252438027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well think so, or one of those other "find good value" thingies. I'm not sure if it does recombination or not < 1252438029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask GregorR < 1252438032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wrote it after all < 1252438053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!source < 1252438055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!info < 1252438056 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null < 1252438063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in that repo somewhere < 1252438068 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252438101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know what a good type to represent a tree would be in python? < 1252438110 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything's a tree < 1252438112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of tree < 1252438120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, parse tree of loops for bf for example < 1252438140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, trying to learn python so decided to write a trivial non-optimising bf interpreter in it < 1252438195 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252438228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the sanest way is to make [ have the stuff in the loop as it's "children" < 1252438241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the sanest way I can think of < 1252438253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess just the basic thing: a class Node which contains a list of Nodes. < 1252438268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or call it whatever you want, I tend to call stuff like that Node. < 1252438301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or a list containing either add,sub,print,read or a nested list? < 1252438307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, does python have atoms? < 1252438367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, how does one define some arbitrary symbolic name to represent an abstract value? < 1252438378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C you would generally use an enum or #define it < 1252438390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in erlang you just use an atom < 1252438400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what do you do in python? < 1252438403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1252438407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1252438419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There appears to be a library for symbols, if that's what you want: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SymbolType < 1252438436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it built into the language itself like enums and such? < 1252438442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a library" < 1252438463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libraries typically aren't builtin < 1252438464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't know how much a python library can change the language. Considering what can be done to perl... < 1252438490 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252438496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can look at the examples on that page, I believe < 1252438747 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252438774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to write a bf parser without tail recursion.... < 1252438776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait I have done this in C... < 1252438784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it shouldn't be any harder... < 1252438800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the tail recursion one would be a lot more elegant, sigh < 1252438840 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252439050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, python has no switch? < 1252439059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or case < 1252439100 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use a hash table < 1252439108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you mean? < 1252439134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, put functions in a dictionary and call the relevant entry? < 1252439145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of switch (foo) { case x ... } you can have an AA with x as a key and call the function at foo < 1252439150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1252439165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AA? Anti Alias? < 1252439293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um one of the possible actions is returning from the function, I'm not sure how that could be acomplished < 1252439299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return to the caller? < 1252439302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the caller < 1252439330 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it return false or whatever in that case < 1252439338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252439524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, any idea why: (loop, i) = parse_prog(program, i+1) < 1252439526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work < 1252439542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, python doesn't have pattern matching does it :( < 1252439542 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, various ideas < 1252439555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to list them all in response to the problem description "doesn't work" < 1252439556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed the obvious and elegant way < 1252439562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, it doesn't. < 1252439564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ValueError: too many values to unpack < 1252439569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting error < 1252439588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you're returning a pair from there always? < 1252439592 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like you might not be < 1252439600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, I wasn't always < 1252439605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now it seems to work < 1252439607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's odd < 1252439704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ok... wtf: mylist += 'foo' adds the element foo at the end as expected. mylist += ['foo', 'bar'] instead concatenates... < 1252439708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is illogical < 1252439722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I wanted to add the list as an element < 1252439723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1252439758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what I'd expect from a dynamic-type language like that < 1252439773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using + for concatenation is bad enough IMO :-P < 1252439792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh true < 1252439846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how does one reload a python module that one imported without exiting and restarting the REPL (or whatever you call the python interpreter shell thingy) < 1252439867 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1252439901 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1252440228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah #python says it is reload(module) but "don't do it, because stuff will break" < 1252440624 0 :impomatic!n=John@nat67.mia.three.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252440628 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1252442499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even worse: < 1252442510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, mylist += ("a", "pair") < 1252442513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what that does? < 1252442522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add as element or concat? < 1252442553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me < 1252442558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, concat < 1252442561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes no sense < 1252442571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might, if lists and pairs are the same thing < 1252442576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether they are < 1252442580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pairs are immutable < 1252442586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while lists aren't < 1252442601 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they're essentially considered lists in that sense < 1252442610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't know enough either < 1252442619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mypair += list < 1252442621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't work < 1252442628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they aren't pairs, they are tuples actually < 1252442634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just I use a 2-tuple here < 1252442637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which end up the same way < 1252442833 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-103-56.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252443324 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252443389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you use in python to print a string with no following space or newline < 1252443656 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print x, < 1252443763 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1252444735 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252445555 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, Deewiant: I did not write bf_txtgen, calamari did. I didn't write most of what's in EgoBot, for that matter. < 1252445574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, well true, but thought you wrote that one < 1252445719 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-163-47-171.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252446165 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252449204 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252449648 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1252449661 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252452160 0 :ehird!i=5b68f3f5@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfcohkepbcorgemk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252452168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have RSI now! :P < 1252452377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:48:24 can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz < 1252452377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1252452434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:08:36 s/plain-text// < 1252452438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pandora stores passwords in WHERE?! < 1252452456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:32:41 someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine < 1252452460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would answer, but you said hardware is boring. < 1252452469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:52:23 See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.) < 1252452477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure Mark Pilgrim initiated it with "configure Debian" < 1252452513 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: is it cache size or something? < 1252452522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what are the two costs? < 1252452533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: like $100 difference < 1252452550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: one's newer. perhaps one uses 45nm and the other uses 60nm or something < 1252452557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: perhaps extra cache. a whole bunch of things. < 1252452566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: who are you buying this from? < 1252452578 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erhid: Lenovo < 1252452601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both have the same cache, both are 45nm < 1252452618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: T9600 is more power-hungry < 1252452624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your battery will last longer on the P9500 < 1252452627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't say how much by < 1252452635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1252452646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P9500 is slower in raw ghz, ofc < 1252452660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both have the same bus speed... < 1252452676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you care about battery life and don't need uber performance, get the P9500 < 1252452690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to save whole SECONDS on your gcc compile, get the T9600 < 1252452698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or if you want to save $$$, ofc) < 1252452709 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1252452713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what model thinkpad, btw? < 1252452719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: T500 < 1252452739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. a wonderful lugbook :-P < 1252452776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1252452780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: btw, apparently there's more keyboard flex on the newer thinkpads of some models < 1252452782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ymmv < 1252452787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1252452789 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the reviews < 1252452792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252452829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally I'm getting an old ThinkPad for the 4:3ness... < 1252453008 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1252453023 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the downsides to a new computer < 1252453033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love widescreen at 20" or bigger... < 1252453043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, ehh, I like laptops that fit on my lap < 1252453062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 14" 4:3 ThinkPad can fit on your lap, just like a 12" 16:10 ThinkPad < 1252453068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that the latter is useless as a main machine < 1252453100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but by getting an old model, I compromise on speed, battery life, heat and brighter displays :( < 1252453198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mitigate the battery life I plan to use an UltraBay battery pack to replace the optical drive, but iirc the 14" Tsomething gets around 4.5-5 hours battery; I imagine I'll get up to 6 hours with the pack < 1252453212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't nearly as nice as the X200, which gets 9 hours on the 9-cell, but eh < 1252453244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed, I can manage as long as I have two cores; using an SSD should mitigate any silly clockspeed or architecture differences compared to my current machine < 1252453272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heat shouldn't be too much of a problem since thinkpads have always been cool < 1252453277 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSD is too costly :( < 1252453291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for a brighter display, nothing I can do. :-( < 1252453303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which kills any chance of using it outside, I guess < 1252453307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to see < 1252453325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah. on the other hand I'll probably save by getting an older model < 1252453328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1252453338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: downgrade the CPU to the minimum and add an SSD :-P < 1252453351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ssd is tiny < 1252453356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1252453360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :max laptop drive nowadays, about 320gb < 1252453367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lenovo offers 128 and 256gb ssds < 1252453413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly even with the base CPU it might be too expensive, but it'll be way, way faster in general use than upping the CPU to the top option < 1252453435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not when doing CPU-intensive stuff, but that's so fast nowadays as tobe irrelevant < 1252453437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to be < 1252453626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lenovo rival apple in markup cost, which is irritating but understandable < 1252453686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it would be possible to rip out the backlight and replace it with a LED one :D < 1252453706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they do allow unserviced upgrades < 1252453724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I'm not even sure if you can *do* that to a display < 1252453744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd have no hope of finding a 14" display of the right dimensions, with a LED backlit, and the right connectors < 1252453756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and a high resolution like you can get on the ThinkPad stock ones < 1252453768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because there was no ThinkPad produced with such a display < 1252453779 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1252453803 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ThinkPad is one of very few computers with the most important thing nowawadays :( < 1252453815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboard, you mean? < 1252453816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also matte < 1252453840 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those matter, but the absolute most important thing is the nipple mouse < 1252453864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I'd be happy with Apple's wonderful large multitouch trackpad too, but failing that, yep < 1252453881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the looks of it, ThinkPads' trackpad is woefully bad < 1252453886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant < 1252453892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tried the multitouch touchpad though < 1252453893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just saying < 1252453912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I'll use it for is scrolling, since it looks bad. :P < 1252453916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the only *unsolved* problem I have is the display brightness, I think < 1252453930 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use pageup/down for scrolling... call me old-fashioned < 1252453951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a great way to give yourself a headache and slow yo udown while you try and find where you left off < 1252453956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1252454053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: why the T500 over the T400, btw/ < 1252454054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1252454071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :penis size obv < 1252454090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: then you want the W700ds, duh < 1252454101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta love that extraneous second screen < 1252454108 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252454121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and RAID. and quad-core. < 1252454129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 3 minute battery life!!! < 1252454131 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1252454205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what I'll do! < 1252454219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a non-booting 14" 4:3, rip out the insides < 1252454223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop the insides of an X200 in < 1252454226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila < 1252454246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, saw the T400s display's sides off < 1252454251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1252454258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the T500's, actually, to get the height < 1252454259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop it in < 1252454260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila!! < 1252454271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't I think of that before. < 1252454382 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"