00:01:03 * coppro wants a KPart plugin 00:42:50 it'd be sweet if xjump had online multiplayer. 00:42:55 and you could knock each other waway 00:42:56 *away 00:58:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:58:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:05:39 http://jwz.livejournal.com/1096401.html?thread=20365265#t20365265 jwz: OOH, DRAMA 01:17:58 I would like to take this opportunity to note that US politics is freaking insane. Like, really, "belongs in an asylum". 01:23:24 gee I wasn't aware 01:26:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:26:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:33:48 "(Please do not thank me - I find it scary)" --the internets 01:48:14 15:19:55 cool link: http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/ 01:48:22 huh, shinh has a real website 01:51:54 06:28:44 also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs 01:52:09 the stereotype, it hurts 01:54:09 07:04:32 AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit? 01:54:10 07:04:38 ais523, yes and? 01:54:10 i hate you 01:55:50 08:22:47 which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process. 01:56:02 source based distros are good because if the distro is horribly broken you can perform major surgery on it easier? 01:56:05 fuck, you convinced me 01:56:10 sign me up for the 5 hour compile times 01:57:19 10:12:00 ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess 01:57:19 10:12:30 AnMaster: just no, they're both awful 01:57:21 what's wrong with notepad 01:57:54 10:14:09 (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.) 01:57:54 cool novelty item. 01:58:20 10:17:00 fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required 01:58:30 "Also failing at the same time was (a) hookers, (b) blackjack. These items are required." 01:59:15 and so i finish logreading. 02:05:41 -!- augur has joined. 02:07:41 hi augur 02:07:47 no i won't have sex with you 02:07:49 bye augur 02:07:57 hey ehird 02:07:59 aww darn 02:08:00 by ehird 02:08:08 I didn't author that 02:08:16 o ok 02:08:25 so you are having sex with me 02:08:25 awesome 02:08:27 <3 02:08:34 oh fine 02:08:37 since you're so persuasive 02:11:18 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:11:31 so my latest torture 02:11:43 in this horrible adventure that is the Italian Dialectology DB 02:11:44 is 02:11:59 the server will not report any fucking errors regardless of error reporting levels. 02:12:05 and regardless of how egregious the errors truly are 02:13:59 Italian Dialectology DB Fuck Shit Damn Whore. 03:09:48 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 03:16:31 -!- ehird has joined. 03:39:56 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 03:53:20 -!- ehird has joined. 04:08:51 I didn't author that 04:08:53 ... 04:10:07 "by ehird" 04:10:12 why the ... 04:10:16 Oh :P 04:10:27 I read over the typo flawlessly :P 04:10:34 flawless... failure? 04:10:42 Yes 8-D 04:10:54 So is that how we say "hello" now? 04:11:01 hi ehird 04:11:01 No I won't have sex with you. 04:11:04 Bye ehird. 04:11:07 Hi augur. 04:11:09 hi Gregor 04:11:11 are you sure? 04:11:18 hey gregor 04:11:19 sup 04:11:22 sorry to see you leaving so soon, Gregor. was it something I said? 04:11:24 You ruined the flow of my other "hi" :P 04:11:33 FLAWLESS TRAINWRECK 04:11:38 * Gregor tries again. 04:11:40 Hi augur. 04:11:42 FUCK 04:11:46 Under some set of conditions it's possible I'd have sex with you, but you don't get to know what those are. 04:11:46 :) 04:11:50 Bye augur. 04:11:51 fuddlepup 04:11:59 bye 04:12:02 aww how cute 04:12:04 "fuddlepup" 04:12:10 who doesn't want a fuddlepup?! 04:12:56 Someone made of ANTIMATTER, that's who. 04:13:16 fuddlepuup ^_^ 04:13:19 He would want an antifuddlepup 04:13:20 Antimatter is an AWESOME power 04:13:30 like, I'd say it's better than Void 04:13:34 antimatter doesn't matter bitch ass fuck attundal what 04:13:34 Hi pikhq. 04:13:35 No, I won't have sex with you. 04:13:35 Bye pikhq. 04:13:43 Hi coppro. 04:13:45 No I won't have sex with you.Bye coppro. 04:13:47 Gregor: Interesega. 04:13:47 Hi Gregor. 04:13:48 Whoops, messed that one up :P 04:13:49 I'd like one day to see a super hero with the power to control the strong interaction 04:13:52 I don't think it's legal to do that to walruses. 04:13:54 Now there's a powerful power 04:13:54 Jesus christ, eww. 04:13:57 What the fuck is wrong with you? 04:13:59 Gregor: you'd have sex with ehird but not me? :( 04:13:59 I'm outta here. 04:14:07 coppro: you're way too old. 04:14:07 (not that I'm interested, but still) 04:14:15 coppro: No, @ehird was "No I won't have sex with you" :P 04:14:22 :pedobear: 04:14:27 Slereah: Shit. 04:14:38 oh 04:14:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:14:45 I have a purry kitty. 04:14:46 "I will make your atoms cease to be. *bam*" 04:14:46 ok 04:14:51 i'll uh, change the laws of your bitching physics? 04:14:55 or something 04:14:56 i am not sure 04:14:57 Hi oerjan. 04:14:59 No I won't have sex with you. 04:14:59 Bye oerjan. 04:15:00 I AM NOT SURE 04:15:07 Come on, he could DISASSEMBLE the fuck out of you 04:15:13 Make you nuclear explode! 04:15:28 Send parton jets in your fucking face 04:17:28 can he rip apart my fucking quarks 04:17:31 my 04:17:31 FUCKING 04:17:31 quarks 04:17:37 FUCK. YOU. 04:17:42 The quarks used for fucking. 04:17:52 no, those are my fucking fucking quarks 04:18:26 And your fucking fucking fucking quarks are for fucking the abstract idea of fucking? 04:18:41 yep 04:18:48 my fucking fucking fucking fucking quarks are just shut the fuck up 04:19:12 #esoteric, the sex channel 04:19:31 So speaking of deer, ... 04:20:20 -!- ehird has set topic: find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell. 04:20:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell. 04:20:30 what 04:22:17 * oerjan distinctly thought #esoteric was usually prepended to the topic somehow anyway. he guesses it depends on client though. 04:23:11 it was a chanserv thingy 04:23:12 i just meant "what" at my topi 04:23:12 c 04:23:15 s/\nc/c/ 04:23:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell. 04:24:29 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell also sex buggery what's his name? i wonder what his name is because he always does that thing, that thing, you know. 05:41:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:48:00 I wonder why we still have window titles 05:48:06 does anyone actually look at the title inside the window? 05:48:17 or the little window icon? should just put the menu there. 05:50:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:19:12 -!- ehird_ has joined. 06:25:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:28:20 weird. My biggest complaint about this computer is something that the reviewers liked 06:28:28 what 06:28:47 the screen's viewing angles 06:28:57 they're too good? 06:29:07 there's a sort of bright bar when you're viewing it straight-on, and you can't get it to be uniform 06:29:16 yeah, that's called shitty TN screens for you 06:29:22 should have got a T60 IPS screen, silly rabbit. 06:29:22 TN? 06:29:31 Twisted neumatic. 06:29:44 Cheap, ubiquitous, shitty colours, shitty viewing angles. 06:30:06 IPS: In-Plane Switching. Expensive, rare, excellent colours, excellent viewing angles, (caveat: not-so-good response times). 06:30:21 *Twisted nematic 06:30:29 nonono, the viewing angles are amazing 06:30:39 especially from the side 06:30:46 If you consider shit at every angle acceptable. 06:30:48 except for when you're straight-on 06:31:07 like, no loss of quality at 80 degrees horizontally either way 06:31:18 IPS looks near identical at all angles; you can go almost sideways and it looks exactly the same as straight-on. 06:31:26 yes, that's how this looks sideways 06:31:30 TN might seem similar at first glance but it's simply not. 06:31:33 not nearly as much up/down 06:33:09 I have no complaints except for this nasty bar 06:33:45 I cannot see any noticeable change at any sideways angle 06:33:52 just wait til you look at the same image on two screens and notice one looks crazy 06:34:03 ehird_: I can recognize LCD distortion, thank you 06:34:15 TN distortion != LCD distortion 06:34:19 TN simply fails at colour reproduction 06:34:26 nothing to do with the colour distortion on angles 06:34:41 well, the subject here was angles 06:34:54 I meant re "I have no complaints" 06:37:01 actually, there's one other. It's hard to look at the screen in insufficient light, far more so than my previous one 06:39:48 * ehird_ glances at kubuntu 9.10 alpha6 page for a few seconds. yep, kde still sucks 06:39:57 lol 06:40:50 i should be happy - the thing causing me to glance is that ubuntu's stock gnome is so out of my way and usable that it seems boring... because i never think about it 07:11:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:48:20 http://www.theonion.com/content/news/pepsi_to_cease_advertising 07:48:21 god damn 07:48:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 07:48:35 if this was real i'd buy like 50 billion bottles of pepsi right now :P 07:51:11 50 million bottles of pepsi on the wall, 50 million bottles of pepsi? 07:51:20 Would take some time to finish those 07:52:23 actually, i drink a lot of pepsi. 07:56:14 How very American of you. 07:57:27 it has an irritatingly addictive taste. 07:57:30 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:57:37 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 07:58:02 -!- ehird_ has joined. 07:58:20 Spawn more ehirds 07:58:55 ehird_ is a ghost xchat i believe. 07:58:57 fuck it in the ASS. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:19 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:55:28 I read over the typo flawlessly :P <-- "reado"? 08:56:19 ehird, good term maybe? 08:57:37 nah. 08:57:44 hm 09:08:34 -!- Pthing has joined. 09:15:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:21:25 hi ais523 09:21:30 hi 09:30:07 hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission 09:30:23 as part of some other software they were pushing out 09:31:00 ais523, huh? 09:31:08 well, sort-of 09:31:14 it was an opt-out update with a confusing description 09:31:39 why on earth 09:31:46 I don't know 09:31:54 atm, actually, I'm more interested in whether it had source code or not 09:31:57 what licence is Apache under? 09:32:08 the apache license iirc 09:32:14 how copyleft is it? 09:32:18 ais523, don't remember 09:32:35 well, it should be easy enough to look up 09:33:39 non-copyleft, it seems 09:33:48 it's pretty like the BSD licence, just massively more complicated 09:34:26 OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/ 09:34:46 Is it the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_7.png ? 09:35:07 yes 09:35:24 well, pretty much, the one there has a different gamma than the one here 09:35:27 which is eye-burningly bright 09:35:49 It's just so powerful, you see. 09:36:16 Alternatively they're hoping it'll leave a permanent after-image on your retina. That's called "marketing". 09:36:41 XD 09:36:43 ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me 09:36:54 which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them 09:37:31 oh, not quite 09:37:47 because deleting a file from a library also deletes the original 09:37:56 but deleting a directory inside a library doesn't delete the files inside it 09:38:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:38:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:38:32 Ha, they closed his connection before he could bad-mouth W7 any more. 09:38:38 whoops, pressed the wrong button 09:38:39 Or not. 09:38:56 I meant to close the tab, I closed the window by mistake 09:39:08 using the "actually close the window, don't just minimise it" shortcut 09:39:42 hmm... it seems the operation of adding a file to a library therefore isn't easily reversible 09:40:02 ah... unless it always contains all files in a folder, which would make sense, so why didn't the help file /say/ that? 09:41:01 "At your taskbar, click on to the Windows Orb on the taskbar --" that somehow sounds really silly. 09:41:13 The Windows Orb, a mysterious relic from the First Age. 09:41:41 also, some scary messages in the help file; it seems that the manufacturer of a USB drive has to do something special to get it to work with libraries in Windows 7 09:41:52 and the help file suggests we nag the manufacturer if it doesn't 09:42:08 * ais523 wonders if such changes would make the USB drive less compatible with other OSes 09:42:32 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 09:42:34 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 09:42:37 "Use the Optimize this library for dropdown to select the correct type of optimization (General Items, Documents, Music, Pictures, Video, or Internet)". What does that do? 09:43:15 I hate to thin 09:43:17 *think 09:45:55 wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful 09:47:03 * ais523 boots into CentOS instead, now it's working 09:47:08 let's see how bad it is... 09:49:24 ok, this is weird, it's Gnome with a theme that makes it look vaguely like KDE 09:55:58 ais523, screenshot! 09:56:13 AnMaster: different computer 09:56:15 but I'm trying 09:56:19 let me get IRC working over there first 09:56:31 -!- ais523_ has joined. 09:56:42 ais523, so you finally got the login to that computer and made X start? 09:56:54 X wasn't the issue 09:56:57 oh? 09:57:01 X was running fine, it's the video card that was messed up 09:57:06 I couldn't see either X or console 09:57:09 ais523_, broken hardware? 09:57:17 incompatible hardware 09:57:24 someone replaced the DVI cable with a VGA cable, and it works now 09:57:29 heh 10:05:19 -!- ais523 has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 10:05:28 oooh! 10:06:03 I think I know how to do it 10:06:25 start with a minimal interpreter that's enough to 'be Feather' in that it can be retroactively self-modified 10:06:28 and that's all you need 10:08:22 ais523, that minimal one still sounds tricky 10:09:02 not really 10:09:03 because it wouldn't need to be written in Feather 10:09:03 well of course 10:09:05 that isn't an "of course" with Feather 10:10:14 ais523, it was "of course the outermost _interpreter_ can't be in Feather itself" 10:10:14 (for compiler that works, if you start with hand compiling the first one) 10:10:14 for a while I thought it had to be a Feather/something else polyglot 10:10:32 but it turns out that you can see the source code of an interp even if it isn't written in Feather 10:10:35 you just get a self-reference 10:23:30 basically, all that you need is an interp for a simple functional language 10:23:39 you don't need any more functionality than Unlambda has 10:23:51 with two changes: first, you need to be able to retroactively replace the interp 10:24:04 and second, it should be easy to write a polyglot in that lang and Feather 10:26:02 conclusion: I need to learn Scheme 10:26:20 or, well, any functional language (i.e. lang with first-class functions) that has call/cc 10:26:38 I know Unlambda already, but I know enough Unlambda to know that that will be a bad idea 10:28:33 anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png 10:28:47 it's the taskbar that makes me think it's acting like KDE 10:28:51 it's a very KDEish taksbar 10:28:54 *taskbar 10:40:44 at least the people here seem to know what software should be on a computer science computer 10:40:52 it has emacs, XEmacs, /and/ gvim 10:40:53 in the menu 10:40:59 (and presumably the command-line versions too) 10:41:31 annoyingly, although Evince is installed, Adobe Reader's default for PDFs 11:55:14 The store I bought the broken monitor from replied, told me to contact the manufacturer directly. The manufacturer replied, said they've outsourced service calls to some company called "Infocare", gave me a phone number. Now I've been sitting in their telephone queue system for the last twenty minutes or so, listening to annoying muzak and a "all aur lines are still busy" announcement which repeats every 30 seconds. 11:59:45 I hear some companies have built cussword recognition to their queue systems, to give preferential treatment to irate customers; maybe I should've tried that. (Too late now, they answered already; IRC complaining does the trick every time.) 12:00:46 have they sorted out your problem? 12:01:54 Well, they'll send someone from yet another company (a courier service sort of one) to pick up the broken monitor. They didn't really tell me what they're going to do with it, though. 12:02:08 hopefully give you a replacement, or fix that one 12:03:44 Yes, both sound just fine. Though I'm not looking forward to a replacement; it's bound to have some broken pixels, and that'll mean a horrible hassle, because the store I bought it from has a special "zero dead pixels" guarantee thing, which supposedly is for as long a time as the manufacturer's warranty, so I'd feel stupid to not take advantage of that. 12:04:57 why would the replacement have broken pixels, if they had a no-broken-pixels guarantee/ 12:05:22 It's not LG (the manufacturer) that has the guarantee, it's the retail store chain. 12:05:44 ah 12:06:40 it's a very KDEish taksbar <-- indeed 12:07:59 bbiab 14:49:24 -!- clog has joined. 14:49:24 -!- clog has joined. 14:49:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:01:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:10:21 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:13:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:58 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 15:18:01 -!- ehird has joined. 15:18:09 01:30:07 hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission 15:18:12 well, it comes on all Macs 15:18:14 almost certainly an oversight 15:18:15 -!- ehird_ has joined. 15:18:23 fuck you ehird_ 15:18:44 01:34:26 OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/ 15:18:52 that gamma must be _really_ bad... 15:18:59 01:36:43 ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me 15:18:59 01:36:54 which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them 15:18:59 no 15:19:05 it's like a saved search, sort of 15:19:12 certain file types from certain directories, curated 15:19:56 01:45:55 wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful 15:20:03 if you'd actually use OS X and win7 15:20:08 you'd realise how utterly wrong you are 15:20:15 OS X's is worthless and slow 15:20:19 Win 7's is well-organised and fast 15:23:05 02:28:33 anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png 15:23:15 why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :( 15:25:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:26:36 hi ais523 15:26:46 i talked a lot to you just before you return, heh 15:26:46 hi 15:26:53 (http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29) 15:26:57 my laptop went on standby 15:26:57 (at bottom) 15:27:03 ah, clog came back? 15:27:03 they do that. 15:27:07 it went? 15:27:08 sweet 15:27:10 what did I miss 15:27:11 I have an office now 15:27:15 i can't wait to logread 15:27:17 ais523: fancy 15:27:19 so I'm leaving my laptop in it when I go to meetings 15:27:27 ehird: fizzie recaptured it after it came back 15:27:37 wat oerjan 15:27:41 er, reca* something 15:27:52 recapitulated? 15:28:02 so did anyone say anything when clog went 15:28:10 also, three email accounts now 15:28:26 yes, enough that I'll need to pastebin it 15:28:28 wait a moment 15:28:39 ais523: anyway, summary of the few-line logreading if your browser is now nc(1) or something: "you're wrong! no, wait, whoever that is is wrong. correction, you're wrong!" 15:28:40 ehird: obviously what i said was incomprehensible, since it answered your question :D 15:28:49 before you asked it 15:29:07 oh wait 15:29:18 http://pastebin.ca/1584352 15:29:34 fizzie pasted before clog came back, duh 15:30:22 so, not only was it incomprehensible, it was also useless 15:31:01 nailing two birds with one stone since 1970 15:31:03 lawl 15:35:00 so, I can probably get 24Mb internet! 15:35:19 in other news, this is caused by moving. you may psychoanalyze the cause/effect relationship there. 15:35:56 well lessee, you are still living with your parents right? 15:36:35 I meant how I put the internet as the main thing and the moving as a side-note 15:36:35 but, err, being 14, yes 15:36:40 well, technically false; parent 15:36:46 which makes it less likely that the move is the effect 15:36:48 ah. 15:37:01 unless your parent is as big a geek as you are 15:37:12 quite the opposite 15:38:08 also i should probably qualify this since it varies so much by country: 24Mb would be an upgrade for you, right? 15:38:57 currently on 8Mb. you, being a fucking ... uh ... Noir? i cannot think of an analog to Swede... probably have 100Mb. 15:39:19 norwegian, i know of no specific noun for it 15:39:57 but I need something vaguely accusatory 15:40:02 actually i have never checked my speed. hm, how do i do that... 15:40:58 ask your isp. 15:41:13 speed tests are far too realistic and unboring because of servers slower than you, beyond a certain speed :P 15:41:17 what isp oerjan? 15:41:18 the landlady got the broadband installed, despite being fairly (ok, totally) clueless in such matters 15:41:31 so you don't know? 15:41:34 nope 15:41:34 I can check from your IP 15:41:41 well, i know the name, NextGenTel 15:41:44 n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no 15:41:45 no i can't :D 15:41:49 heh :D 15:42:00 oerjan: how much do you pay per month and does it include phone? 15:42:28 i pay nothing, it's included in the rent. although she increased the rent about 300 kr at the time 15:43:12 then use http://speedtest.net/ (click the server it highlights in yellow) and I'll try and correlate that with your ISP's website and the 300 kr figure 15:43:18 science! 15:44:26 also pause any downloads before obvs 15:44:33 4.50 Mb/s download 15:44:41 * ais523 tests the connection here at Birmingham University 15:44:54 10.42 MB/s download, 5.03 MB/s upload, 17ms ping 15:44:57 that's a wireless connection, though 15:45:00 ais523: probably 100Mb/s raw connection 15:45:08 or even 1,000Mb/s, if they're fancy 15:45:35 anyway, 10MiB? 15:45:38 or MB? 15:45:42 or Mb? 15:45:56 I'm not sure 15:46:01 0.51 upload, 42 ms ping 15:46:01 I've already closed the website 15:46:10 oerjan: download is important 15:46:14 the only erlevant one 15:46:15 *relevant 15:46:18 i said that already 15:46:24 ah 15:46:34 did it say Mb with a lowercase b? 15:46:46 yes 15:46:51 Mb/s 15:46:55 so 576KiB 15:47:11 oerjan: you prolly have a 6Mb connection or so 15:47:27 not very good I'm afraid :P 15:47:51 I have sideways 8 Mb, and I LIKE it! 15:47:53 erm 15:47:58 wait, that'd be 0Mb 15:48:01 but infinite latency 15:51:27 oerjan, hi 15:51:31 hi AnMaster 15:51:42 and yeah 15:51:48 (about what you said about dmm) 15:53:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:53:50 * ehird wonders if there's a decent gnome usenet client, like a frontend to SABnzbd or something 15:54:28 would also be cool if it had an interface to one of the big search sites but, you know, asking for too much 15:54:52 http://www.lottanzb.org/ looks nice but depends on keeping the machine on instead of having a server download it 16:04:13 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise. 16:04:25 oerjan, I'm not Star Trek nerd enough to spot the reference in Darth & Droids today 16:04:39 (that they are talking about in the annotation) 16:04:40 "She's dead, Jim" 16:04:45 oh right duh 16:06:53 * oerjan doesn't consider himself a star trek nerd either, but he knows _that_ :D 16:09:13 -!- ais523_ has quit ("Page closed"). 16:09:30 ehird: did you see my CentOS screenshot earlier 16:09:34 I still don't know that 16:09:44 ais523: uh, read the logs :P 16:09:53 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29 press end 16:09:55 i replied to it 16:09:58 although rather boringly 16:10:02 I did, I just have a bad memory 16:10:04 * ais523 rereads 16:10:37 you replied to my Win7 discussion 16:10:39 but not to the CentOS 16:10:43 (they're the two OSes on my office computer) 16:10:45 wrong 16:10:59 07:23:05 02:28:33 anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png 16:10:59 07:23:15 why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :( 16:11:12 ah 16:11:19 got the reference wrong 16:11:31 also, those icons scale horribly 16:11:48 (but I smiled a little at the old-school Clearlooks; I love that look) 16:11:52 which ones? 16:11:58 ooh, and a Bluecurve terminal icon 16:12:04 ais523: window decoration and gtk theme 16:12:14 Clearlooks looks different nowadays but has a classic style available 16:13:28 ais523: can't gnome do a two-line taskbar? everything else is insanity like that 16:13:48 that taskbar is one-line; I'm not sure whether it can do two-line or not, although that one isn't 16:13:56 anyway, I assume you're not allowed to muck with this computer, or you just have a weird adoration of bad operating systems :P 16:15:02 not allowed to muck with it, yes 16:15:17 also, can't without doing things like opening it up and resetting the CMOS battery 16:15:21 or other similarly dubious things 16:15:24 it's meant to be pretty locked down 16:15:27 not much of a computer, then 16:15:33 more a kiosk 16:15:36 I'm mostly using my laptop as a result 16:15:47 understandable 16:18:59 Feather... 16:19:18 I recognize it from somewhere, I guess it's been discussed here before 16:19:37 ais523's magnum opus. 16:19:44 that is, if it's ever made. 16:20:34 FireFly: several languages, like Brainfuck, INTERCAL, and Malbolge, are much-reputed for driving people mad 16:20:38 Feather is /actually/ driving me mad 16:20:43 as in, I have trouble thinking about it 16:20:48 it hurts my brain 16:20:56 I'm not sure it's actually a valid concept, so to speak 16:21:25 You can only think of one incomplete projection of it into concept-space at once, sort of like a Klein bottle in 3d space 16:21:25 and since they're inconsistent, it just confuses you 16:21:28 I don't expect to gain anything from this conversation, will I? 16:21:35 i.e., it's impossible to express Feather 16:21:42 wait what, updated kernel on ubuntu but the same /lib/modules/foo directory for old and new? 16:21:45 that's pretty odd 16:22:00 FireFly: It's a programming language that you can modify (the interpreter) retroactively - so that it was *always* true, infinitely far back in time. 16:22:00 maybe the update didn't break binary compatibility 16:22:10 just because Linux isn't afraid to break binary kernel compatibility doesn't mean that every update necessarily does 16:22:15 Including the interpreter used to interpret your modification, the one used to interpret that, etc. 16:22:21 explains why the module was loaded without being having to rebuild it against new kernel though 16:22:40 ais523, how do they make sure it doesn't... I mean it would need some pretty careful checking 16:22:49 why? 16:23:04 the API is defined, if the API didn't change (only the internals), you aren't breaking binary compat 16:23:46 As a side note, what's an approximation of the size of the channel logs? 16:23:50 ais523, err API != ABI 16:23:57 you can break ABI without breaking API 16:23:58 Or, well, another note* 16:23:59 I guess 16:24:01 err, I meant ABI 16:24:08 FireFly: something like 50MB 16:24:08 but an ABI is a sort of ABI 16:24:10 MiB that is 16:24:12 and besides, the A isn't correct either 16:24:15 it's more a KMBI 16:24:16 but an ABI is a sort of ABI 16:24:20 Not that big then 16:24:24 *ABI is a sort of API 16:24:37 FireFly: 50MB is an awful lot of text, we're quite popular 16:24:49 well, I guess it's a lot of text 16:24:51 I may be wrong; it's been a while since I've had the logs downloaded 16:24:53 But not a lot to download 16:24:56 ais523, is the ABI versioned or something? Or how do you check if it changed without reading every patch manually and checking carefully if those things are exposed to modules 16:24:58 As in 16:25:10 We're not talking about flooding the server with requests 16:25:18 Each file is only about 100KiB. 16:25:20 So yes, we are. 16:25:23 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that the release managers did read every patch 16:25:27 ehird, 50 MB for how long? 16:25:38 because they need to know what they changed 16:25:40 AnMaster: Dec 2002 - late 2008 iirc. 16:25:49 FireFly: One of these days I'll get around to writing my script that downloads all logs since the last run (or the full set if you've never run it) and then munges them all to use UTC time. 16:25:55 besides, for all we know it's just 2 patches to fix security problems, or something similarly important but simple 16:25:59 ehird, only 50 MB? Huh 16:26:07 AnMaster: It's *text*. 16:26:09 ##linux is like 50 MB per month 16:26:12 the irc log 16:26:15 AnMaster: people nowadays underestimate how compact plain-text is 16:26:18 I grew up with floppy disks 16:26:21 I guess 16:26:27 if we assume an average english word length of 5 letters, 16:26:30 for which 50 MB is about 2 boxes of disks 16:26:38 ehird, will you reupload the transformed logs? :) 16:26:42 #esoteric has seen 10,485,760 words in its time 16:26:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:26:51 and you used to be able to fit lots of data on a disk 16:26:51 ais523, if ##linux is around 50 MB per month... (well, 48.2 for last month according to du) 16:26:58 give or take the timestamps and names 16:26:59 and the like 16:27:02 after compression it ends up at 4.6 MB 16:27:02 but it's close enough 16:27:10 (that is lzma --best) 16:27:24 That's *ten million* words. 16:27:32 ais523: how many words fit on an average book page? 16:27:34 guess 16:27:50 ehird, how large book is your average one 16:27:59 ehird: about 200 16:28:00 pocket? half A4? 16:28:02 250 was standard IIRC 16:28:03 Regular novel size. 16:28:10 I don't have to guess, I actually counted for a school project once 16:28:13 Deewiant: with 5-letter words, roughly? 16:28:14 but ofc it depends on the book 16:28:19 ehird, as in hardcover discworld book size? 16:28:23 AnMaster: sure? 16:28:30 ehird, sure about what 16:28:46 As in, "sure.?" 16:28:53 As in I don't know, I don't own any 16:28:57 ah 16:29:12 hardcover discworld is larger than the standard novel, I'd guess about 300 for it 16:29:16 ehird: I dunno, I just recall 250 being cited as average in novel pages back in the typewriter days 16:29:21 ehird, what about English hard cover edition of last Harry Potter book 16:29:22 Anyway, the #esoteric book (assuming 50MiB logs) would have something like 52,429 to 41,943 pages. 16:29:22 I don't own any either, but I've read them in the library 16:29:25 (200 and 250) 16:29:29 And still being semi-standard for estimates 16:29:31 *41,943 to 52,429 16:29:35 Absorb that figure for a second. 16:29:39 let's say 50,000 16:29:40 We have talked a *fucking* lot. 16:29:49 ais523: 41 and 52? 16:29:51 I'd say 45 16:29:56 as a good compromise 16:30:03 well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library 16:30:11 Yeah. 16:30:41 So yeah, we're prolific. 16:31:04 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 16:31:20 well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library <-- Seen that wikipedia book? 16:31:29 AnMaster: it's not the whole thing 16:31:31 (might have been photoshoped, don't know) 16:31:31 That was a subset of Featured Articless. 16:31:33 *Articles 16:31:38 Anyway, we'd be thicker. 16:31:41 Much, much thicker. 16:32:01 I doubt it'd be short enough to fit in any room in a typical house. 16:32:08 the Encyclopedia Britannica takes up about two shelves, by comparison 16:32:22 ais523, how long shelf? 16:32:29 AnMaster: typical library shelf 16:32:35 as in, I'm going on a copy of it I saw in a library 16:32:42 Of course, I'm ignoring the fact that 90% of our ramblings are worthless shit and a selection of Wikipedia FAs and Britannica are both valuable resources. 16:32:45 it's not as if I own it myself 16:32:57 ais523, well, that would be some 20 meter long shelf if the local library is representative? 16:33:00 Also, 74.9% of our lines are me. :P 16:33:07 AnMaster: oh, no 16:33:19 it's somewhere between 1 and 2 metres at the one I think of 16:33:26 Just think about the meta-nature of reading in the log-book about estimating the size of the same 16:33:28 a 20 metre long shelf would be rather painful to attach to a wall 16:33:41 FireFly: we'd better print it quick 16:33:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:34:32 I suspect both ehird and AnMaster are too young to remember the days of floppy disks, where 1MB was a lot of storage 16:34:42 ais523, there are some shorter ones too, around 5-10 meters I think. those that are free standing in rows, rather than attached to any wall. Oh and down in the magazine they are around 7 meters I think... 16:34:48 ais523, ~1.3 MB iirc 16:34:56 i'm so happy you can buy a TB for $80 nowadays 16:34:57 though it was ages ago I used any 16:34:59 AnMaster: 1.44MB 16:35:01 AnMaster: a floppy disk holds 1.44 MB under DOS or Windows 16:35:06 ehird, after formatting and FS I meant 16:35:07 ... 16:35:12 AnMaster: well, duh 16:35:13 something like 1.7 with certain Linux formats and FSes 16:35:18 AnMaster: that's what my figure was 16:35:20 * ehird takes a screenshot, just because he's itching to play with Dropbox 16:35:24 because they found a more efficient way to write the data to disk 16:35:40 and you can get even more by forcing the drives to act in a way that the spec says they shouldn't 16:35:43 but some drives break when you do that 16:35:45 http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/Screenshot.png 16:35:52 zomg screenshot 16:35:53 ais523, back then I was using Mac OS. So that was 1.44 - HFS metadata and such ~= 1.34 iirc 16:36:01 It's, uh, very screenshotty. 16:36:39 ehird, what is the combined band aid + gnome foot icon? 16:36:51 ehird: that's your Ubuntu system? 16:36:58 also, what's with the wooden-table wallpaper? 16:36:58 Uh, that's the X-Chat X with the GNOME logo on top of it. 16:37:07 i.e., X-Chat GNOME. 16:37:09 *XChat-GNOME 16:37:14 you'd enhance the effect by hiding the panels 16:37:22 ais523: that's my iMac with Ubuntu 9.10 on it 16:37:22 also, I just like it 16:37:39 ais523, hm any way to only get the "hide panel" button on one side of the panel? 16:37:47 AnMaster: not that I know of 16:37:48 * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png 16:37:51 to avoid name clashses 16:37:52 *clashes 16:37:52 ais523, KDE3 can do it 16:37:54 that's a KDE sort of question 16:38:08 ais523, well I meant I want that in gnome 16:38:14 ehird: what's with the Foonetic channels there, btw? 16:38:18 * oerjan was hoping for an actual picture of a bandaged gnome foot 16:38:24 http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus 16:38:50 it's, uh, pretty normal apart from that synchronized tick 16:38:52 ais523, because with synergy I easily end up misclicking the hide button that is on the side that is "attached" between the screens 16:38:58 which was blue and two arrows chasing each other (not animated) a few seconds beforehand 16:39:07 (that little box in the system tray is dropbox) 16:39:14 http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus <-- err same image as the first one? 16:39:20 AnMaster: no it's not 16:39:29 AnMaster: my guess is there isn't an easily exposed setting to do that sort of thing in Gnome 16:39:35 http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png 16:39:36 http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png 16:39:37 compare 16:39:37 if there's one at all 16:39:41 one shows dropbox in nautilus 16:39:46 showing my previous screenshot 16:39:50 Gnome isn't very big on settings that not that many people need 16:40:01 oh hm 16:40:01 why hide a panel, anyway? 16:40:08 ehird, why is the first one 404 now? 16:40:08 both of them are used commonly, at least for me 16:40:16 famously it refuses even to allow customisation of screensavers, but apparently that's to do with the individual maintainer rather than Gnome itself 16:40:19 * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png 16:40:20 AnMaster: he renamed it 16:40:20 to avoid name clashses 16:40:20 *clashes 16:40:20 He renamed it 16:40:21 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:21 He said 16:40:21 that's why 16:40:23 a h 16:40:23 :P 16:40:24 ah* 16:40:29 Screenshot.png isn't a very good name 16:40:37 ehird, 16:40:39 ;P 16:40:40 You know it's a screenshot, at least 16:40:40 anyway 16:40:55 ehird, what is the green thing on the image for? 16:41:03 AnMaster: "This file is synchronized with Dropbox" 16:41:13 If it wasn't, it'd be blue and have two arrows (non-animatedly) chasing each other 16:41:18 (sorta like the recycling icon) 16:41:27 Then the Dropbox daemon updates them, and it turns to a tick 16:41:31 ehird, did you mention what dropbox was anywhere? 16:41:40 Dropbox is a file synchronization over multiple computers thing 16:41:44 oh ok 16:41:46 AnMaster: it's a proprietary file-synch thing 16:41:47 It's just like a regular directory, that it automatically syncs 16:41:52 ais523: only the daemon is proprietary 16:41:57 the nautilus extension and system tray are open source 16:42:01 well, ok 16:42:04 ais523: besides, Ubuntu One is proprietary and does the exact same thing 16:42:07 I know I've helped someone install it on Ubuntu before 16:42:10 except all of it is proprietary, and it only works on Ubuntu 16:42:12 and it abuses the trademark 16:42:14 and it comes with Karmic 16:42:19 and due to not being OS, it wasn't in the repositories, which made it more complicated 16:42:20 ehird, how is it better than rsync for example? 16:42:22 so I think Dropbox is positively benevolent in comparison 16:42:23 and what computer are you syncing it with 16:42:33 *OSS 16:42:36 AnMaster: Because I can use it like a regular directory, and it just happens, in seconds, instantly 16:42:47 AnMaster: And I can right click, Dropbox -> Get Public Link if it's in Public/ 16:42:52 I've heard awful stuff about paid software in the repos on Karmic 16:43:00 And I can view it on the web, and upload files on the web 16:43:04 AnMaster: Also, it stores revision history 16:43:05 Complete 16:43:08 For something like 30 days 16:43:12 (and also lets you undelete for that long) 16:43:16 for every file 16:43:25 ehird, so where is this synced to? Some other computer on your network? 16:43:28 I'm not actually syncing it to another computer, just playing with it 16:43:36 or hm "get public link" 16:43:45 I guess to some account on a server 16:43:49 AnMaster: Well, uh, the Dropbox corporate servers. But the actual files are on every computer, so there's no risk, and I can easily use PGP or an encrypted loopback filesystem or whatever. 16:43:54 how much does it cost? 16:44:01 Free, for 2GB. 16:44:04 Pay, for more. 16:44:08 mhm 16:44:14 It's all the rage with the Web 2.0 twitterblagosphere types. 16:44:32 * ehird tries making a loopback filesystem on it 16:44:36 ehird, maybe using gmail as backend. Isn't it up at like 7 GB or something nowdays? 16:45:02 One, that's probably against the TOS; two, 7374M(i?)B. 16:45:24 Also, you can't share Gmail messages. 16:45:29 that is still more than 2 GB yeah 16:45:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 16:45:42 -!- ehird has joined. 16:45:43 Oops. 16:46:05 * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.67.185) has left #esoteric ("Ex-Chat") <-- quite a bad pun IMO 16:46:10 It's the default. 16:46:19 ehird, well yes. Doesn't make it any better 16:46:30 Anyway, Dropbox is cool. I'm sort of itching to make My Own Far Superior Version that uses Amazon S3 as a backend and encrypts everything but, you know, I don't care what they see because I wouldn't store anything sensitive on it without encrypting it. 16:46:37 Also the proprietary daemon sort of fails to bother me entirely. 16:46:57 Also, loopback filesystems are cool. 16:47:20 Oh, and Dropbox traverses symlinks, so you can use it as a sort of backup thingy. 16:47:21 ehird, I'm wondering how hard it would be to make something like it that didn't use any corporate server but simply synced between your own computers in real time. 16:47:21 arigh lag 16:47:21 argh* 16:47:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:47:47 * ehird uses .xfs as a file extension for an XFS filesystem, because that's fun. 16:47:57 what's wrong with that extension? 16:47:59 it seems obvious to me 16:48:30 Nothing; it's just fun to have things like foo.ext3 lying around. 16:48:40 Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't. 16:48:53 I can almost imagine double clicking it and opening it like a folder in Nautilus 27.49. 16:49:04 Nautilus should so do that 16:49:08 after all, Archive Mounter exists 16:49:16 Aw, Ubuntu doesn't ship with XFS? 16:49:26 Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't. <-- how does loop filesystems feel exotic? 16:49:33 AnMaster: Because they're fun! 16:49:36 And uncommon. 16:49:48 And... potential. 16:51:20 1) fun - well, maybe. 2) uncommon - yes, because most of the time they are pretty useless, exceptions would be: mounting isos; testing/debugging new file systems/file system features; encrypted fs in a file 16:51:25 3) potential - huh? 16:51:38 So many... opportunities! 16:51:42 -!- augur has quit (Connection timed out). 16:51:45 Fun filesystem nested testing VM cheesecake boom! 16:52:14 One downside: There ought to be a mount you can use as non-root. 16:53:54 Tee hee, I now have "dropbox" with an HD icon on my desktop. Let's see if syncing works properly. 16:54:22 Oh, ext4 will be delaying gedit's writes, won't it. 16:54:24 Let's unmount that thing. 16:54:47 Aaaand it syncs. 16:55:00 ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Dropbox$ ln -s test.ext4 Public/2009-09/ 16:55:10 Brought to you by the "this is so cool that it can't possibly work" department. 16:55:20 Oh darn, the link is broken. 16:55:23 I'm stupid. 16:56:12 There, now let's see if it stored two copies. (Probably not, since it appeared synchronized first thing, which is cool.) 16:56:20 Meanwhile: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/test.ext4 16:56:23 Share and enjoy. 16:58:21 Eh, it probably did. 16:58:22 Oh well! 16:58:24 That link is disappearing now. 17:01:12 Anyway, can someone tell me who thought Nautilus tabs were a good idea? 17:01:15 I cannot think of a single usecase. 17:03:18 ehird: I've used them 17:03:23 much the same way as Firefox tabs 17:03:27 why? 17:03:39 because I was working in one directory structure 17:03:45 then wanted to open a second whilst still working on the first 17:03:57 (Enigma levels and Enigma source, as it happens) 17:04:14 ais523: ever heard of windows? 17:04:31 i mean, browser tabs are an acceptable kludge because our window management facilities suck so much, but for two folders? 17:04:31 ehird: opening two windows would just be clutter 17:04:48 I like alt-tab to remain relatively sane 17:04:52 besides, it was for two related things 17:05:03 Clutter? 17:05:05 if it was for two completely different things, they'd be in different windows, maybe even different desktops 17:05:08 Two windows for two things you're working on. 17:05:09 but when I'm switching quickly back and forth 17:05:12 Uhh, that sounds like... you know... 17:05:14 The purpose of windows. 17:05:16 ] 17:05:20 s/that line/oblivion/ 17:06:25 ehird: Windows are a pain to switch using the mouse, you have to move it a long way from where you're actually working 17:06:31 and a pain to switch using the keyboard if you have too many 17:06:44 whereas tabs are right next to the contents of the window themselves 17:06:48 have you ever heard of Fitt's Law? the window switcher panel is very efficient 17:06:52 I don't even like the concept of tabs above the address bar for that reason 17:07:03 ehird: you have to move the mouse /back/ again afterwards 17:07:12 and Fitt's Law applies to the contents of the window too 17:07:27 doesn't matter, you have to move a bad Fitt distance with tabs 17:07:34 -!- augur has joined. 17:07:34 it's more than "right here", but not enough to throw the mouse 17:07:56 anyway, two windows != tons 17:08:07 two windows > 1 17:08:12 and i postulate that by the time you have enough nautilus windows for it to be a pain, you've forgotten about some of them 17:08:16 and I had 8 windows open at the time 17:08:28 ais523: so, would you appreciate a program that is just one program, with tabs, for every program you have open? 17:08:35 OH WAIT THAT'S CALLED A WINDOW SWITCHER :P 17:08:48 ehird: it would be useful /if/ I could choose which programs went there and which didn't 17:08:58 also, if they nested too 17:09:02 why do you have programs open you don't wnat? 17:09:06 also, use ion or something 17:09:10 ehird: why do you have programs open you don't want /now/ 17:09:13 it has window tabs, probably nested even 17:09:25 ais523: I generally try to not 17:09:51 let's just say, not every program in the whole world is both intelligent enough to manage 100% persistency even when closed, and opens up instantly 17:09:57 this is a shame, but it's the current situation 17:10:02 Yes, but Nautilus is. 17:10:15 it would take a while to navigate to the folder in question 17:10:32 it's something like 8 or 9 levels deep in the directory structure 17:10:46 Anyway, we're talking two folders. I guarantee that beore Nautilus tabs you'd have had no issues whatsoever with it. 17:11:24 also, I found the silliest microsoft ad ever! 17:11:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJp6NThk7XE 17:12:05 ehird: before then I used command-prompt tabs, because it was a pain to do what I wanted via the API 17:12:26 *GUI 17:12:31 I also never use terminal tabs! I'm so crazy. 17:12:46 Probably because context switching terminal/GUI is quite expensive. 17:12:56 before /then/ I used multiple folder windows on Windows, and that was a real pain because sometimes there'd be so many the titles were abbreviated to one letter 17:13:07 I think you need a window GC. 17:13:17 ehird: that was mostly due to bugs in Windows 17:13:19 God knows I do sometimes. 17:13:45 but a window GC would only be useful if it was easy to restore them to the state they were in when they were closed 17:13:49 which is a point you still haven't addressed 17:13:56 yes, I know programs ought to be able to do that 17:13:58 but most of them can't 17:14:01 It could just move them to a "crap" workspace or something. 17:14:18 Anyway, I never have problems. Maybe you just think I'm an extremist about closing apps. 17:14:21 Honestly I have quite a lot open. 17:14:31 Maybe it's because I have a big screen, so the window clickies are bigger. 17:14:42 Whereas your tiny screen can comfortably switch, what, 5 windows? :P 17:15:05 depends on how 17:15:20 the window switcher can manage about 7 or 8, but I rarely use it, mostly because it involves using the mouse 17:15:37 You know, I'm not sure GNOME is for you. :P 17:15:40 and even when I'm doing Enigma work or web browsing, something similar that needs the mouse a lot, I don't like moving it all the way to the bottom of the screen 17:15:54 and GNOME works just fine for me, I just use the features of it that you keep bashing as unnecessary 17:16:12 ah, now that I'm not sleep-deprived I'm going to play some more Enigma 17:16:25 (I do use the window switcher to easily see which windows I have open, it's how I noticed that I'd accidentally opened two Evolution windows, for instance) 17:16:36 ais523: I think I tend to be a GNOME extremist just because I really like the philosophy 17:17:05 I suppose to try and shape more accurately what "GNOMEishness" is in the minds of others, because I hate it when people go "lol removing options = betar gnome" 17:17:41 ais523: Enigma VII has some really long times 17:17:48 for instance 17:17:57 it has some really long levels 17:18:06 hmm, where's that one 17:18:14 ais523: for instance, #2 Diving 17:18:19 also, because I've been working on Enigma 1.1 for so long, I keep on thinking of enigma VIII and enigma IX 17:18:20 48:14 par, 5:46 record 17:18:22 par is probably way off 17:18:24 which have some even bigger levels 17:18:31 due to the shitty par calculation 17:18:35 ais523: does Ubuntu have 1.1 yet? 17:18:41 or is it not out? 17:18:41 no, it isn't released 17:18:43 if so, is there a ppa? 17:18:48 or any sort of repo with binaries? 17:18:52 you have to compile yourself, or there are some "milestone" builds 17:18:57 only for mac and windows, though 17:19:31 oh god, I hate DownDown 17:19:35 it just makes me stress out 17:19:46 it's actually not too hard 17:19:50 I used to find it massively ahrd 17:19:52 *hard 17:19:54 it is because I can't play it calmly 17:19:58 but did it with loads of time to spare when I tried recently 17:20:05 ais523: #21 Cold Meditation, world record 18:53 17:20:07 jesus fucking christ. 17:20:44 Enigma VI has more long times 17:20:49 #36 17:20:57 #29 17:21:01 holy crap 17:21:04 #23 is 32:27 par 17:21:05 ehird: I've found links to the snapshot binaries for Windows and Mac 17:21:07 6:08 record 17:21:07 do you want one or the other? 17:21:16 ais523: neither, I'll compile the source 17:21:19 due to using Ubuntu nowadays 17:21:25 fair enough 17:21:38 "apt-get build-depends enigma" will get you nearly all the dependencies you need 17:21:41 is it just me, or is VI#23 just designed to have every-fucking-thing in the game? 17:22:12 which one's that? 17:22:21 Prepare Your Defense 17:22:34 ouch, that one 17:22:36 (also, what mouse sensitivity do you use? I can't get a good value. Using a wireless optical mouse with two batteries (so quite a bit heavier than a wired mouse or a one-battery wireless mouse) on a felt pad.) 17:22:42 it's very highly rated, which means it's pretty complicated 17:22:54 ais523: and the times are insane 17:23:09 and I use normally 7, although I adjust it to 15 for levels which are predominantly ice, and 1 for parts of levels where you go through death-stone corridors or other similarly narrow fatal bits 17:23:41 7 is way too sensitive, I'll fall into everything 17:23:43 5 seems acceptable 17:24:01 really, the optimal value depends on the adhesion of the underlying floor 17:24:11 what, of the mouse? 17:24:19 yes 17:24:24 as I said, felt pad 17:24:29 because the mouse-marble relationship is mouse sensitivity * adhesion 17:24:32 so quite resistant, although not terribly 17:24:32 oh, I meant the floor of the level 17:24:42 thought so 17:24:45 anyway, maybe I should try a trackball 17:24:48 that would be ideal for enigma 17:24:54 e.g. ice you want to set it to 10 times your standard value, if you can 17:24:59 second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub 17:25:01 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 17:25:07 as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors 17:25:09 well, more like 8 times 17:25:12 -!- ehird has joined. 17:25:18 what did I miss, and what did I last say? 17:25:20 [17:25] as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors 17:25:21 [17:25] well, more like 8 times 17:25:24 [17:24] second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub 17:25:32 rightyho 17:25:35 carry on from there then :P 17:25:51 standard adhesion's something like 1.2, IIRC 17:25:56 although the "good" floors have higher values 17:26:07 that is, good as in non-evil 17:27:11 agree about trackball/trackpoint btw? 17:27:42 I've played Enigma on a trackball 17:27:50 I was about as good with it as I am with a mouse 17:27:56 and considering I've practiced for months with a mouse, that's saying something 17:28:20 I love Enigma, even though I'm really, truly awful at it 17:28:21 (it would also avoid the problem with the mouse reaching the edge of the table; recentering it is ofc possible but takes time, which can be valuable in Enigma) 17:28:42 btw, how do you jump over the fucking water in time in VI#35 Phaeton? 17:29:16 oh, there we go 17:29:32 it is possible, but note that that's rather a complex level with several possible ways to go about it 17:29:37 and I can't remember which one is correct 17:29:43 (I have par on that level, which I'm quite proud of) 17:29:48 i did it fine, but now I have no idea wtf the next bit is 17:30:22 you do need to get ready before you set off the lightpassenger 17:30:29 remember that you can lasertransform things 17:30:35 I can? 17:30:44 there's a laser, isn't there? 17:30:49 also, you can even blocktransform things 17:30:51 I don't actually know what lastertransforming is... 17:30:53 the lightpassenger is a sort of block... 17:31:04 ehird: haha, that could explain a lot that you're missing about Enigma 17:31:18 not-very-spoily version: some items react weirdly to being hit by lasers 17:31:25 it's not exactly very discoverable... 17:31:26 I'll give you a spoilier one if you like 17:31:33 I'll just try all of them 17:31:37 it's not like I have a life 17:31:37 ehird: "Advanced Tutorial" gives some hints 17:31:38 :P 17:31:50 Hey an umbrella for my money. 17:31:52 Cool. 17:32:01 I'll take two. 17:32:49 one of the LotM essays has a fictional book called "Item Transformation for Dummies" that the black marble carries around with him 17:33:04 Sunglasses! Stylish. 17:33:31 And then I died. 17:33:42 VI#45 Wormhole Madness! 17:33:50 Par is 36:38 17:33:50 record is 7:40 17:34:15 oh god, a shitton 17:34:17 those records have since been beaten 17:34:28 par 12:04 record 3:41 with up-to-date data 17:34:38 VI#44 Dancing on Light Beams record is 0:09, how the fuck 17:34:48 there's a shortcut 17:35:05 I'm not actually sure how to do the level without it 17:35:18 I get the lightpassenger to the end, and use it to knock the impulse stones out of the way 17:35:28 then I turn the laser off so I can get at the oxyds, and it bounces back down the corridor 17:35:36 OTOH, I'm not good enough to do the level using the shortcut... 17:35:42 jesus christ @ Hot Meitation 17:35:57 I've actually done that one, I think 17:36:10 yep 17:36:14 it isn't actually a speed level 17:36:18 well, not unless you're going for the world record 17:36:27 my time is 1:04, 8 seconds over par 17:36:51 enigma should have keyboard shortcuts for "slow" and "fast" 17:37:00 say, normal = 5, slow = 3, fast = 10 17:37:13 hold down shift/ctrl or whatever 17:37:33 interesting 17:38:03 it's easy enough to script that, but might be considered cheating that wya 17:38:03 *way 17:38:26 you could try asking on the mailing list 17:38:39 but I'd have to subscribe 17:38:44 well, fair enough 17:38:56 I'm subscribed, but then I'd have to actually pull together the effort to care 17:39:01 which is being spent on other things atm 17:39:36 -!- Pthing has joined. 17:40:19 holy shit 17:40:21 VI#55 17:40:23 par 77:32 17:40:25 record 10:21 17:40:40 ouch 17:40:44 I know that level quite well 17:40:47 it also gets very high ratings 17:40:58 and high ratings is a bad sign for difficulty 17:41:03 people seem to like the massively long hard ones better 17:41:32 * ehird solves VI#60 in world record time 17:41:36 *50 17:41:39 (not new world record, but still) 17:42:05 one of my levels has an author time of 22:45 17:42:08 can it even be solved in 0:02? 17:42:15 (which is technically world record, as I don't think anyone else has solved it yet) 17:42:46 "Jump into Meditation" 17:42:47 ? 17:42:50 yes 17:43:03 it's ridiculously easy 17:43:13 author time of 0:03 17:43:16 which is equal to the world record 17:43:23 and it's rare that a world record can't improve on the author 17:43:35 who is just trying to solve it to set some author time, rather than trying to get good at it, usually 17:43:44 yeah, if you're quicker than 0:03 you just die 17:43:52 VI#83 is /hideous/ 17:43:54 by the way 17:44:04 oh god, #62 17:44:04 the times reflect the difficulty quite well 17:44:16 it wouldn't be so bad if it used sensible floors 17:44:20 what, 5:44? 17:44:24 that doesn't sound hideous 17:44:27 but putting abyss and space and swamp and inverse in it is just unfair 17:44:35 9:25's the world record 17:44:35 oh wow 17:44:37 that is crazy 17:44:43 no it's not 17:44:57 0:52 17:44:59 Johannes 17:45:05 must have been renumbered for 1.1 17:45:05 I'm thinking of "The Cube" 17:45:12 you're looking at the easy mode 17:45:21 Me too. 17:45:22 9:25 Johannes in hard 17:45:29 Oh. 17:45:31 I'm not using Hard. 17:45:43 the easy mode of that level is OK 17:45:51 ok, look at VI#100 17:45:53 that time is ridiculous 17:45:54 it's the hard mode that's a bitch, and is one of the things that makes me want to leave it for the last level I ever do 17:46:06 and VI#100 is infamous 17:46:07 98 and 99 too 17:46:19 it was obviously destined for a #100 slot 17:46:21 it's just that sort of level 17:46:29 I've never got past the third room on it 17:46:33 and the second is really tedious 17:46:37 which is /not/ a good combination 17:47:03 #98 is rather difficult, it's one of the hardest one-screeners there, apparently 17:47:06 (not counting #62) 17:47:19 and #99 is really a pain 17:47:25 due to the white marbles falling in the water all the time 17:47:28 and it not being obvious what to do 17:47:43 I can't figure out #100's first room... 17:47:56 one of the blocks is movable, and there's a hidden trigger 17:48:03 I found that 17:48:05 (this bodes badly for the rest of the level, btw) 17:48:18 It moved! 17:48:23 "Now what." 17:48:35 Lessee. 17:49:17 bothering with it can be a bad idea, because room 2 is a) moderately difficult, b) very boring, and c) has about 4 or 5 plausible solutions, only one of which is correct and you don't find out which until much later 17:49:41 room 2 looks easy, which means it's probably hard 17:50:12 haha went south, straight into water 17:50:13 fuck this 17:51:11 incidentally, there's an infamous bit much later on in the level, which I've never reached 17:51:19 apparently it's a maze involving death-stones and swamp 17:51:33 does enigma 1.1 have the copyrighted music? 17:51:35 ubuntu's package doesn't 17:51:39 which makes me :sad: 17:52:02 1.1 does, yes 17:52:21 ^_^ 17:52:25 link to svn repo or whatever? 17:53:03 svn://svn.berlios.de/enigma-game 17:53:50 does it have the debian/ directory, I wonder? 17:54:08 unlikely 17:54:14 I have the repo here, I'll check 17:55:24 yep, no debian/ directory 17:56:06 did you want one/ 17:56:08 *? 17:56:16 well, it lets you make a .deb 17:56:18 but I'll just use checkinstall 17:56:39 I don't believe in just hoping I never need to remove something from /usr/local, you see 17:56:53 (is trunk rather stable or should I keep the repo around for updating?) 17:57:30 they tend to rename things a lot, so keep the repo 17:57:45 also, they're forever fixing bugs and graphics and so on 17:57:48 and level shortcuts 17:57:51 hmm... does dpkg have a replace-package command? 17:57:59 i.e., I know you have that deb; forget about it, this is the new version 17:58:06 that's basically uninstall+reinstall, but still 17:58:25 not as far as I know 17:58:31 but I rarely mess with dpkg directly 17:58:36 except when fixing broken distro upgrades 17:58:48 * ehird wonders whether he should install it in /usr or /usr/local 17:58:57 in /usr would break any Ubuntu Enigma, unless, 17:58:59 does it name things -1.1? 17:59:01 /usr/local if you aren't using the package manager 17:59:05 I am 17:59:06 and no, it just uses the old names 17:59:07 checkinstall creates a deb 17:59:11 by looking at every filesystem change 17:59:14 in a chroot 17:59:32 it's very clever, you can just do "sudo checkinstall", describe the package, and it installs it into dpkg with "make install" 17:59:39 install in /usr, uninstall if an official version comes out 17:59:47 right 17:59:49 I installed into /home, with a separate .enigma directory 17:59:53 * ehird purges Ubuntu's Enigma 18:00:01 (don't want any stray conflicting configuration files...) 18:00:07 because I didn't want to lose my records on the official Enigma while I worked on the development one 18:00:25 I'm terrible at it, so that's not a worry 18:00:39 * ehird wonders whether he should do something crazy, like symlink all my dotfiles into Dropbox 18:00:49 If I used emacs, my .emacs would never be desynchronised! 18:01:04 ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ rm -rf .enigma 18:01:04 .enigma/ .enigmarc.xml 18:01:11 ...why do you have a directory if you have a file too? 18:01:35 checking out enigma sure is taking a long time 18:01:53 I'm 57th best in the world by level percentage completion 18:02:08 at 56.73% 18:02:12 well, there are only about 100 Enigma players :-P 18:02:17 more than that 18:02:19 maybe 200 18:02:22 who score-submit 18:02:23 ehird@ehird-desktop:~/enigma-game$ ls 18:02:23 add-ons branches feature_branches homepage tags team_levelpacks trunk 18:02:29 ais523: you could have linked me to the trunk... 18:02:43 * ehird wonders where to put the repo 18:02:47 ehird: that's the only link I know 18:02:54 I mean, it's the one on the website 18:02:56 ais523: you should check it out with /trunk after it 18:02:59 I didn't realise you could check out subrepos in svn 18:03:02 otherwise you check out every branch, the homepage, every release 18:03:03 everything 18:03:07 which is... slow. 18:03:13 it can't go in ~/Keep/2009-09/, because it changes... 18:03:21 maybe I should make ~/Volatile, or something 18:03:25 for stuff that changes that isn't mine 18:03:55 I have ~/research/ which is almost exactly that 18:04:05 I love how academic that sounds 18:04:16 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:04:50 out of all my directories, it's probably the one with the most subdirs 18:05:08 apart from one that's a backup of stuff that was on previous computers 18:07:53 I was about to use ~/Crap, but that's for crap I made already. 18:11:00 how's the install going? 18:11:20 I wiped the repo to redownload just the trunk, but I'm still hemming-and-hawing about a directory... 18:11:31 ooh, how about ~/NIH? :-D 18:11:39 that's a good one 18:11:50 ~/NIH/enigma go go go 18:11:54 * ais523 wonders whether me liking something makes it more or less likely ehird will use it 18:12:16 wow, the Enigma devs seem to be on holiday 18:12:21 (I wonder why I name bottom-level directories lowercase, but the rest Title-Cased English (although I rarely use anything but [A-Z][a-z]+) 18:12:23 only change last week was a tweak to the Makefile 18:12:26 s/$/)/ 18:12:27 when normally there are loads of changes 18:12:36 probably running out of things to change. 18:12:46 nah, I submitted a huge number of new levels last week 18:13:19 6, it seems 18:13:24 together with corrections to 2 more 18:15:43 okay, now to figure out what I need to ./configure 18:15:50 * ehird ./autogen.sh 18:15:58 configure.ac:110: warning: macro `AM_PATH_SDL' not found in library 18:16:02 should that *really* be a warning? :P 18:16:33 * ehird build-deps enigma 18:17:59 they added one new dep, IIRC 18:18:03 although I can't remember offhand what it's on 18:18:13 i'm sure i can handle one strenuous apt-get line 18:18:22 I wish bash had a name for '& disown' 18:18:26 like &! 18:18:30 gedit README &! 18:18:30 disown? 18:18:33 pronounced "and STAY out!" 18:18:41 ais523: so if you close the terminal it stays 18:18:41 basically, it deparents the process, I think 18:18:47 zsh has it 18:18:51 is that yet another variant on nohup and friends? 18:18:53 otherwise, you have a bunch of background processes lying around 18:19:03 ais523: nohup is not actually meant to do it as its main purpose, I think 18:19:08 besides, it creates "nohup.out" 18:19:15 agreed, its main version is insulation from SIGHUP 18:19:18 which is what I generally use it for 18:19:23 *main purpose 18:20:26 uh oh, I'm becoming a fan of Ubuntu's text rendering 18:20:56 why is that uh oh? 18:21:12 because I'm losing everything that defines me!!! 18:21:18 (incidentally, I saw that Reddit post on the differences between Arial and Helvetica; you're right, Helvetica's much better where they differ at all) 18:21:48 ... are we swapping? 18:21:52 not really 18:21:52 please say no. 18:22:00 I never disliked Helvetica, in that I never really had a chance to see it 18:22:52 the thing I notice most about Arial/Helvetica is the R 18:22:59 yes 18:23:00 Arial's slanted R just looks awful with all the other letters 18:23:04 agreed 18:23:12 annoyingly, the R is Arial-like in this font too 18:23:14 and looks bad here too 18:23:29 About That I'll Rant. 18:23:30 Yes, indeed. 18:23:36 not too bad amongst capitals, but glaring amongst lowercase 18:23:42 It's monospaced, though, so it's not exactly a paragon of typographical elegance any way you look at it. 18:23:52 XChat-GNOME just looks awful in a proper font. 18:24:02 monospaced isn't meant to be typographically elegant, I don't think 18:24:04 I've forgotten the term for non-monospaced... proportional. 18:24:15 * ehird wonders whether to start making separate build directories 18:24:18 ais523: indeed 18:25:07 the INSTALL tells me to do it in-directory, so I will! also I am lazy. 18:25:30 most people never bother to make really proper build systems, like C-INTERCAL's 18:25:35 --enable-tools Build developer tools default=no 18:25:42 what're they? are they shiny? 18:25:46 I've never used them 18:25:54 I doubt they're for level development 18:25:59 "Proper, like C-INTERCAL's"? 18:26:04 Sounds very oxymoronic 18:26:11 He may have being sarcastic 18:26:18 Deewiant: INTERCAL attempts to be unlike all other programming languages 18:26:19 ais523: I know, but can you, like, mess with scores and internal values and stuff, I wonder? 18:26:21 That would be fun. 18:26:27 this includes having a build system that supports everything 18:26:29 ais523: Yes, I'm aware 18:26:37 "Everything"? 18:26:41 --enable-experimental Include experimental features default=no 18:26:43 such as in-tree, out-of-tree, parallel make, running with and without install, and crosscompile 18:26:56 Hmmmmm 18:26:56 Looks shiny. Looks dangerous. 18:26:57 --enable-optimize Compile with optimizations default=no (whyever not?) 18:27:01 very few build systems can manage all of that 18:27:18 is optimisation disabled for dev purposes? 18:27:24 not sure, maybe 18:27:28 probably to make it easier to debug 18:27:29 Really? Seems relatively trivial to me 18:27:32 ehird@ehird-desktop:~/NIH/enigma$ ./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-tools --enable-experimental --enable-optimize 18:27:38 I wonder if this will break stuff. 18:27:38 Probably! 18:27:39 Gogogogogo 18:27:51 * ehird updates system first, though 18:28:57 Software Center is quite annoying at the moment... 18:29:10 right now it's an Install/Remove... with an uglier interface and more confusing terminology 18:29:44 "Software Center"? 18:29:49 also, "Ubuntu Software Center" both needlessly references Ubuntu in the menu and doesn't give any sort of hint; what's wrong with Install/Remove... or even clearer, Install/Remove Applications...? 18:29:58 ais523: previously Software Store. Aren't you on Karmic alpha? 18:30:02 oh, they're replacing Synaptic for Karmic, aren't they? 18:30:05 No. 18:30:06 10.04. 18:30:10 I'm on Jaunty-proposed 18:30:11 It just replaces Install/Remove... atm. 18:30:27 which means I get fixes before they're properly tested 18:30:31 But it'll replace Install/Remove..., Synaptic, Update Manager and Computer Janitor in 10.04 or thereabouts. 18:30:31 but am otherwise on Jaunty 18:30:58 as long as apt-get keeps working, I'll probably use that 18:31:03 if the GUI things are too obnoxious 18:31:08 Synaptic works but is kind-of bland 18:31:12 (probably that's all for the best...) 18:31:17 It's called "Ubuntu Software Center" in the Applications menu, which isn't helpful and references Ubuntu, uses a fixed blue colour scheme for the application view and the main page (think iTunes store), doesn't have enough whitespace 18:31:19 HAVING SAID THAT 18:31:26 In actual usage, it's just like Install/Remove.... 18:31:28 So it's not much of a problem. 18:31:41 ("....", agh. I need to start using the proper ellipsis character.) 18:31:58 I have no idea what iTunes looks like 18:32:22 http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ShssuEE1cx0/SqTDb0dQhtI/AAAAAAAADuA/bH9ZyFPRhEM/s400/Spotify+iphone+App+store.jpg 18:32:38 imagine that thing's body, but far simpler and without the gradient; that's what Software Center looks like 18:33:11 ais523: screenshot: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/software-center.png 18:33:37 ah, ok 18:33:38 the actual design document on the Ubuntu wiki is excellent apart from the name and the "Department" terminology, but the application itself doesn't live up to it yet 18:33:51 however, it's fine as an Install/Remove... replacement and easier to use for e.g. package descriptions. 18:33:54 Also it has screenshots on some apps, which is fun. 18:34:15 probably from the Debian Screenshot Project 18:34:18 yes 18:34:25 they have a debian spiral when there is no screenshot 18:34:32 heh 18:34:46 (also, that screenshot was ridiculously easy to take; I can just hit Print Screen, hit enter, go to Places -> Shared, right click it, and Dropbox -> Copy Public Link.) 18:34:57 (It seems a bit convoluted, but I can have a URL to a screenshot on my clipboard in about five seconds.) 18:35:08 well, technically I rename it before hitting enter, but. 18:35:15 configure: error: libcurl is required to compile Enigma 18:35:18 I wonder why. 18:35:31 Package libcurl-dev is a virtual package provided by: 18:35:31 libcurl4-openssl-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2 18:35:31 libcurl4-gnutls-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2 18:35:32 Uh/ 18:35:33 *Uh. 18:36:23 curl is to download the updated par times and world records 18:36:31 that's opt-in on the options screen 18:36:40 (which should I pick?) 18:36:52 One of those didn't handle SSL parameter renegotiation (used when there are some directory-specific SSL-related things), but it's possible they both do it right nowadays. 18:36:54 it probably doesn't matter 18:37:03 APT is licensed under GPL. libcurl can be used with both OpenSSL and GnuTLS. In case of OpenSSL a special exemption clause would be required for making it possible to link with both libapt-pkg and OpenSSL. We will try to get a written permission to do this from the previous apt copyright holders. Until we have that, we will use gnutls. 18:37:10 heh 18:37:14 from the ubuntu wiki about apt+https 18:37:27 Curl: libcurl GnuTLS insufficient cert verification Vulnerability 18:37:27 10 Jul 2007 ... libcurl (when built to use GnuTLS) fails to verify that a peer's ... Note that libcurl needs to be built to use GnuTLS for this flaw to be ... 18:37:52 this is just ridiculous 18:38:12 OpenSSL I reasonably trust, although I'm not sure why 18:38:15 so maybe I shouldn't 18:38:26 openssl's code is gnarly 18:38:36 otoh, gnutls seems to be way less popular 18:38:37 and GNU's code is gnuy 18:38:40 and there's that vulnerability 18:38:43 so openssl is probably a better bet 18:38:45 is it fixed yet? 18:38:49 I imagine it would be... 18:38:52 probably, but still 18:39:01 I don't trust the GNU project to be very good with things like side-channel attacks 18:39:07 they're too busy making their code look like ELEGANT LISP 18:39:33 Note, selecting libcurl4-gnutls-dev instead of libcurl4-dev 18:39:40 I wonder if xmonad would be better than awesome; after all, Haskell obviously beats Lua, which I don't much like. 18:39:40 Ubuntu tries to make my decision for me! 18:39:55 oh, you just installed the virtual 18:39:57 and it picked one? 18:39:59 fizzie: The "it recompiles your configuration file to a binary then uses that instead of xmonad" rubs the wrong way with me. 18:40:04 ais523: well, it's prompting me, but yes 18:40:09 let's go with it, then 18:40:19 can always change 18:40:22 this explains why C-INTERCAL depends on "gcc or a C compiler" 18:40:30 it's giving a strong hint that gcc is probably the best one to use 18:40:33 ehird: Saying "+" in aptitude on the xmonad line says "will use 111MB of disk space", which sounds a bit excessive. 18:40:43 fizzie: That's probably ghc. 18:40:47 Is big. 18:40:52 fizzie: You need the compiler for the configuration, you see. 18:40:58 Because it's compiled and used instead of your xmonad binary. 18:41:08 Did I mention that xmonad's configuration is shoehorning Haskell? 18:41:10 :P 18:41:20 I have ghc already, though. But there's quite a lot of things that were not included by the "ghc6" package itself. 18:41:33 Yes, Debian's infamous shitsplitting strikes again. 18:41:36 It splits shit. 18:42:40 Awesome's configuration file is a Lua script, and I get a vaguely ill feeling whenever I have to do something to it. 18:43:26 Use ion3(plus), then. Not only does it use a Lua config file, it also has an obnoxious author and license. 18:43:53 It doesn't support my uneconomical penis extend... I mean, Xinerama. 18:44:03 There's a patch for that! 18:44:38 ehird: iPhone app store parody? 18:44:40 Enigma is now configured 18:44:40 Source directory: . 18:44:40 Installation prefix: /usr 18:44:40 C++ compiler: g++ -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA 18:44:40 Libraries: -lcurl -lxerces-c -lpng -ldl 18:44:41 Linker options: 18:44:43 Languages:de fr nl it es sv ru hu pt fi uk be el 18:44:45 If these values seem to make sense, you can now run make. 18:44:47 ais523: heh, no, but let's pretend it is; that's a good one 18:45:05 Sorry, according to the fact I used the wrong word there; I should've said "rub" instead of "support". 18:45:06 ais523: does it take a long time, Enigma? to compile 18:45:17 maybe about 10 minutes on this computer 18:45:26 the install takes a while too, though, because it has to copy a huge number of files 18:45:26 I'll -j3, then. 18:45:30 (2 cores * 1.5) 18:45:44 ehird: the *1.5 is apparently due to a scheduler bug 18:45:46 g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../src -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA -MT extractbitmaps.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/extractbitmaps.Tpo -c -o extractbitmaps.o extractbitmaps.cpp 18:45:47 extractbitmaps.cpp: In function ‘int main(int, char**)’: 18:45:47 extractbitmaps.cpp:81: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope 18:45:47 extractbitmaps.cpp:87: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope 18:45:47 extractbitmaps.cpp:94: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope 18:45:48 extractbitmaps.cpp:103: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope 18:45:50 Uh. 18:45:53 (does Enigma parallel-make correctly, btw?) 18:46:00 It seems quite slow, but it probably works. 18:46:06 also, what a weird error? 18:46:21 "Did I mention, exit was not declared in this scope." 18:46:42 it's like someone forgot to include 18:46:51 Indeed they did. 18:46:56 ... 18:46:58 WTF. 18:47:03 but I don't get that error... 18:47:03 Do these people not... test this thing? 18:47:15 Oh, hm. 18:47:17 It includes stdio.h. 18:47:20 Maybe something weird. 18:47:26 ais523: maybe my options are fucking things up 18:47:35 stdio.h? how quaint 18:47:40 that's a C++ file we're talking abuot 18:47:41 make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/ehird/NIH/enigma/lib-src/oxydlib' 18:47:42 *about 18:47:55 ais523: so do you compile with the experimental features on? 18:47:57 --enable-experimental 18:48:17 no, I use standard config 18:48:24 How is that fun?! 18:48:24 as in, configure without arguments except for prefix 18:48:25 :P 18:48:30 But okay, that's probably for the best. 18:48:33 "I will also not provide support for versions of Ion that have been corrupted with support for such things as Xft/fontconfig, and such versions may not be distributed as “Ion”." 18:48:35 the game is fun, the compile doesn't have to be 18:48:52 fizzie: you could just use multiple root windows, you know 18:49:37 I want to stab people who use recursive make. 18:49:39 Also autotools. 18:49:39 Again, I want Firefox windows on multiple screens without running multiple instances, and as far as I know it still can't do that. 18:50:03 fizzie: VNC to a non-displayed screen 18:50:21 Now that there sounds like an elegant solution. 18:50:29 Totally. 18:50:37 fizzie: Or use a better browser! 18:50:42 fizzie: Like Opera! Tuomov looooooooves Opera. 18:50:56 Especially because it doesn't use GTK+, which is horrible GNOME crap. 18:51:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:15 "density: command not found". 18:52:19 Let's try that but without parallel. 18:52:30 (What is density?) 18:53:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:53:21 no idea 18:53:23 and it isn't in the repos 18:53:36 Must be an Enigma thing that didn't get compiled yet, then. 18:53:49 could be one of those funky dev tools 18:53:53 that you're trying to compile 18:54:03 No, I gave up on that. 18:54:08 This is generating some artwork stuff. 18:56:42 Still can't fucking find it. 18:56:46 I think density is some imagemagick thing. 18:57:05 * ehird installs it 18:57:49 let's try that again 18:58:03 I don't think it has density; mine has the binaries compare, animate, convert, composite, conjure, import, identify, stream, display, montage and mogrify. 18:58:32 ais523: is there a file listing all the deps...? 18:58:41 In addition, packages.debian.org finds a "density" binary only from 'emboss', a molecular biology thing. 18:59:04 ehird: not as far as I know 18:59:10 Yes, but the calls look like ImageMagick calls. 18:59:29 density -PixelResolution 154x324 {...} foo.png ../bar.png 18:59:36 (made up, just an example of the s 18:59:36 /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+0 ../../../data/gfx48/it_coin_s.png it_coin_s.png 18:59:40 Aha. 18:59:42 It tried to find convert. 18:59:45 It couldn't find it. 18:59:50 So $(CONVERT) -density became -density. 18:59:54 And somehow the shell dropped the -. 18:59:55 got it 19:00:00 And... the rest is ... 19:00:00 Uh. 19:00:05 and no, Make dropped the - 19:00:07 it has a special meaning in make, IIRC 19:00:11 although I can't remember what it is 19:00:15 /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+288 ../../../data/gfx48/thief_capture_template.png thief_template.png 19:00:15 make[3]: *** [st_thief_drunken.png] Aborted (core dumped) 19:00:15 make[3]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs.... 19:00:15 That, that is... that is not good. 19:00:36 why would imagemagick be doing that? 19:00:44 I. I don't know. 19:00:48 Let me clean, configure and try again. 19:00:49 Make has a special meaning for the - prefix, it's that ignore-errors thing or something. 19:00:56 Without -j3. 19:01:00 fizzie: That'd explain why it did multiple ones. 19:01:04 "To ignore errors in a command line, write a `-' at the beginning of the line's text (after the initial tab). The `-' is discarded before the command is passed to the shell for execution. " 19:01:07 And errored out when it tried to access the produced files. 19:01:11 Such a fun error. 19:01:33 would have been even more fun if the first command-line option had been a real command 19:02:54 ais523: like rm -f, destroying the source files 19:03:02 "Why are you doing that, Enigma?" 19:03:24 it's unlikely that a program would accept -rm -f as options, and that someone would write it like that and not as -rmf 19:03:37 convert assert failure: convert: magick/image.c:4516: SyncImagesSettings: Assertion `images != (Image *) ((void *)0)' failed. 19:03:37 CancelOk 19:03:37 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagemagick/+bug/438884 19:03:39 Reported with glee. 19:03:52 I like how that only took a few clicks. 19:04:10 ais523: ImageMagick style programs don't allow -combiningoptionsbecausetheyrelikelongoptions 19:04:15 yes 19:04:28 but programs with long - options tend not to use names like "rm" and "f" 19:04:42 Ever seen rxvt options (and maybe xterm)? 19:04:44 -sb for scrollbar. 19:04:45 -bg, -fg. 19:05:08 Heh, without -j3 it works. Coincidence or crazy ImageMagick bug? 19:05:16 "Can only run two instances of ImageMagick at once" 19:05:29 Okay, install checkinstall then sudo checkinstall time. 19:05:44 maybe the image file was somehow unlinked while it was running? 19:05:55 The package documentation directory ./doc-pak does not exist. 19:05:55 Should I create a default set of package docs? [y]: 19:05:55 Such a tricky question. 19:06:03 I can sort-of imagine an fstat to check size, followed by opening after that, and crashing if it was unset in-between 19:06:04 Is Enigma's documentation built by default? 19:06:11 and yes, it is 19:06:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:06:34 and very useful if you plan to make any levels 19:06:39 (less useful but not bad if you just plan to play) 19:06:43 So I need to move it around. Blah. 19:06:59 you can just read it from the build tree, though 19:07:15 Well, it'll do "make install" like normal; it just won't go into the official package thingy, whatever that is. 19:07:23 And you know what, I don't even fucking care :P 19:07:46 * ehird copies Ubuntu's description of Enigma 19:08:46 except for "This package contains the game engine." :P 19:09:00 0 - Maintainer: [ root@ehird-desktop ] 19:09:10 that's a great maintainer 19:09:30 o Optionally you can make a directory called "doc-pak" whose contents 19:09:30 will be installed in /usr/doc/ inside the package you're 19:09:30 about to create. checkinstall will remind you about this one if it notices 19:09:30 there is no "doc-pak" on the source directory. Good candidates to be there 19:09:30 are: README, INSTALL, COPYING, Changelog, TODO, CREDITS, etc. It's up to you 19:09:31 what to copy in there. 19:09:36 * ehird ^C 19:09:40 Easy to do that. 19:09:50 OTOH, it'll already do that. 19:09:50 So to hell with it. 19:10:14 * ehird sets maintainer to ehird@ehird-desktop for logi 19:10:19 s/$/c/ 19:10:51 I think I'll name it enigma-svn 19:12:01 ais523: so this is 1.1, right? 19:12:13 it's 1.01 (1.1 compatibility branch) 19:12:14 3 - Version: [ 1.1 ] 19:12:14 4 - Release: [ 1 ] 19:12:14 huh 19:12:28 should release be something like svn1077 (the revision number?) 19:12:34 the engine is 1.1-compatible almost exactly, the interface is somewhere in-between 19:12:45 ais523: is that what you use? 19:12:54 as what? 19:13:01 dev enigma 19:13:09 yes, for level development 19:13:13 and playing new API levels 19:13:18 right 19:13:21 I use the Ubuntu package for playing old ones 19:13:27 so should release be svn1077 or whatever? 19:13:46 possibly 19:13:55 you may want to call the version something like 1.1~svn1077 19:14:04 so it sorts correctly in debianbetical order 19:14:07 3 - Version: [ 1.01 ] 19:14:07 4 - Release: [ svn1815 ] 19:14:08 I'm not sure what that maps to 19:14:31 meh, who cares 19:14:46 also, 1.1? isn't it 1.01? :P 19:15:06 6 - Group: [ checkinstall ] 19:15:06 er... sure 19:15:17 ehird: you could count forwards instead 19:15:20 8 - Source location: [ enigma ] 19:15:20 9 - Alternate source location: [ ] 19:15:20 10 - Requires: [ ] 19:15:20 11 - Provides: [ enigma ] 19:15:20 Weird. 19:15:24 in Debianese, 1.1~ means "before 1.1 19:15:25 " 19:15:31 * ehird changes provides to enigma-svn 19:15:40 god, I can always change it 19:15:41 this'll do 19:15:59 provides is for things that depend on it 19:16:01 ======================== Installation successful ========================== 19:16:01 grep: /var/tmp/tmp.YhomUNcJHg/newfile: No such file or directory 19:16:02 reassuring 19:16:19 as in, "provides: enigma" means that things that depend on enigma will be OK to install if it's installed 19:16:24 Copying files to the temporary directory... 19:16:26 [silence] 19:16:31 ais523: right; don't want to mess with that 19:16:33 yay, it's going on 19:16:37 installing debian package! 19:16:45 Done. The new package has been installed and saved to 19:16:45 /home/ehird/NIH/enigma/enigma-svn_1.01-svn1815_amd64.deb 19:16:45 You can remove it from your system anytime using: 19:16:45 dpkg -r enigma-svn 19:16:57 hmm... 19:17:00 what's apt-cache show on a .deb? 19:17:17 -I 19:17:17 dpkg -I 19:17:27 Version: 1.01-svn1815 19:17:29 that's acceptable 19:17:37 since it's -svn, using ~ doesn't make sense 19:17:44 since it'll almost immediately advance beyond any particular release 19:17:51 Depends: 19:17:53 tee hee 19:17:55 hmm... s > 3 19:18:02 so that'll sort correctly wrt the released versions 19:18:07 cute 19:18:10 who cares, anyway 19:18:12 yay, it's in my menu 19:18:35 that might be from Ubuntu, but who cares 19:18:49 ais523: you lied, the music is different :( 19:19:06 ah 19:19:06 you can change it 19:19:06 hooray 19:19:06 ehird: there are two 19:19:06 it alternates between them 19:19:06 enter a level and exit 19:19:20 Pentagonal Dreams! 19:19:25 is it just me, or is the mouseover button effect obnoxiously loud? 19:19:38 ais523: Pentagonal Dreams is the catchy and legally dubious one 19:19:39 it can be; you can tone effects down in options 19:19:40 so I'll stick with it 19:19:58 default's to alternate 19:19:59 * ehird ups the resolution 19:20:02 what do you use? I use 800x600 19:20:02 and yes, I know the names of the musics 19:20:05 also, *defaults 19:20:09 I use 960x720 19:20:13 wat. 19:20:15 because it fits exactly between the panels 19:20:17 of the screen 19:20:22 heh 19:20:25 it's sort-of the perfect size for this screen res 19:20:37 1024x768 puts a border around some levels 19:20:45 so I guess 800x600 is "show me all of it" 19:21:09 * ehird turns on ratings update 19:21:09 some of mine are in the dev version 19:21:26 do a search for "Alex Smith" if you're interested 19:21:27 peculiar UI for choosing a language; shouldn't it be based on locale? 19:21:33 it has SEARCHES? 19:21:38 under "level pack" 19:21:51 click "search" and it'll create a "search results" levelpack for you 19:22:04 wat@tutorial level sierpinski 19:22:16 heh, that one's always fun 19:22:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:22:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:23:22 wow, my system lags loading the IX thumbnails 19:23:31 it's regenerating them 19:23:36 coffee? do I spot a joke? 19:23:39 (IX#2) 19:23:39 the thumbnails only need generation once 19:23:54 and no, not a joke 19:24:01 I needed to find 9 useless items that looked different 19:24:08 (useless in the context of the level, except for a specific reason) 19:24:20 it's yours? 19:24:21 I didn't even notice 19:24:24 yes, I wrotei t 19:24:26 (*wrote it) 19:24:37 oh, it's sudoku 19:24:37 heh 19:24:55 ais523: mouse speeds in this version are slower 19:25:02 7 is acceptable, whereas it was intolerable before 19:25:08 ah, interesting 19:25:20 either that, or you're playing my levels and I generally use high-friction floor 19:25:29 oh, that might've been the floor 19:25:33 that's my only level in IX; most of them are in VIII 19:25:36 Iower i 19:25:37 by /dev/null 19:25:50 #83 to #88 inclusive are all mine 19:25:53 in VIII 19:26:55 (you might recognise a couple of them from Agora, if you were paying attention there; I translated them) 19:27:20 i'm walking without fear in VIII#6, have covered most of the level, and only died once, on my first tile 19:27:32 i guess it disables after the first boom :P 19:27:35 that's a great level 19:27:43 but after it explodes, it's unsolvable 19:28:07 it's another level along the same lines as Su Dyxo and Enigris 19:28:13 is there an "update level times now" button? 19:28:16 Enigiris? is that tetris? 19:28:20 yes, it is 19:28:31 wow searching is awkward 19:28:31 it's in the old version, somewhere in level pack IV IIRC, and of course hasn't been deleted 19:28:41 click a button, enter, go to level packs again, all level packs, choose search results 19:28:43 ehird: yes, having to hover the mouse in one place, that's a UI fail IMO 19:29:00 what do you mean hover it? 19:29:13 also, it should jump straight to the search results pack if you search 19:29:37 oh, they fixed it 19:29:38 it doesn't 19:29:44 you used to have to hover the search box to be able to type there 19:29:59 but, it's jumping straight to the search results for me, if I click on "search" 19:29:59 heh 19:29:59 * ehird wonders if Experimental#6 is solvable 19:30:03 I haven't tried pressing return 19:30:07 oh, hm 19:30:09 it is for me too 19:30:55 and experimental#6 appears to have no pearls (for a meditation level), no oxyds, and no opals 19:30:55 so I think it's unsolvable 19:32:05 -!- jix_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:32:35 dunno#dunno Fool the Warden is fun 19:32:39 (searched for foo) 19:32:47 it's one of the old ones IIRC 19:35:36 wrt your comment about coffee, finding uses for coffee has been a sort-of habit for level designers 19:35:43 *hobby 19:35:55 for instance, you can block lasers with it 19:39:17 fool the warden keeps me playing... 19:39:44 that one annoys me 19:39:51 because it's easy but time-consuming until right at the end 19:40:03 also, I'm not sure what the correct order to move the pearls in is 19:40:12 hmm... if I'm thinking of the right level 19:40:17 I may be thinking of something else 19:41:41 try it 19:42:31 oh, that one 19:42:34 that one annoys me too 19:42:39 it's a different one, though 19:42:41 heh 19:42:53 why? 19:43:58 just completed it in 1:02 19:44:03 obviously I've got better since I last tried 19:44:20 now, playing it on the version that actually counts! 19:44:41 (and the one I was discussing before was "Fool the Watchdog") 19:44:47 does the ball have a speed limit? 19:44:53 wow, I did it before 19:45:09 and I don't think there are speed limits apart from mouse detection and floating-point roundoff errors 19:45:20 because i'm spinning between... I think ice, and space 19:45:37 currently going up/down very rapidly, only slightly left 19:45:37 before that i was bashing around wildly 19:45:37 it's quite fun to watch, and i'm flickering 19:45:42 well, the mouse speed is ignored in space, and mostly ignored in ice 19:45:42 so i think i'm going insanely fast 19:45:42 especially since i dropped two items 19:45:47 when i hit that column 19:45:47 they both popped instantly 19:45:51 so yes, you're going insanely fast 19:46:16 it looks like i'm going smoothly now, but I bet i'm going so fast, it just looks that way 19:46:39 didn't there used to be a thing that'd reset you back 19:46:53 you mean, an item? to jump back to the start? 19:46:59 it_ring does that on a single-player level 19:47:00 no, but after a while on space, you got put back 19:47:08 that's never been the case 19:47:12 hey, i escaped! 19:47:15 maybe a level did i t 19:47:15 although people often either put magnets near space, or add gravity 19:47:18 *it 19:47:27 i skipped over solid stuff 19:47:27 for that sort of reason 19:47:31 and just glided to a reset position 19:47:41 oh god invisible blocks 19:47:46 (1.1new#21) 19:48:24 I dislike that one 19:48:36 especially as I went round the massive level twice and still couldn't figure out what I was meant to do 19:52:21 1.1new#25 argh 19:53:38 lol@1.1new#40 19:54:16 * ais523 waits for you to comment on one of eirs 19:54:27 * ehird searches 19:54:44 Rainbow Adjacencies: oh god. 19:55:03 you remember that one? 19:55:08 from Agora? 19:55:10 nope 19:55:12 well yes 19:55:13 now 19:56:21 I like its preview image 19:56:52 From Six To Twenty-Six: what is this I don't even 19:57:37 also from Agora 19:57:38 Transforming Numbers: um 19:57:43 it's the other Agoran level 19:57:52 and Transforming Numbers is great, it's one of my favourites out of my own levels 19:57:58 Deathbridge: Oh no, not this again. ...better try it 19:58:41 you should have a go at Transforming Numbers (since renamed Number Crunching); note that that version has a shortcut but it's not one you're likely to discover, so playing an unfixed version should be fine 20:00:17 * ehird dies in Deathbridge, goes again 20:00:42 (I mean, it took me months to discover the shortcut, and I wrote the level in the first place...) 20:00:55 isn't such a shortcut good? 20:01:02 no, not really 20:01:02 fun 20:01:09 also, *Deathbridge, goes 20:01:10 damn spaces 20:01:19 it's a shortcut of the nature of "1% of the time this level is really easy, most of the time it's standard-difficulty") 20:01:29 which basically just encourages grinding 20:01:35 s/)// 20:01:44 ah, so not knowledge-based? 20:01:48 yep 20:01:59 in fact, it's only ever come up twice to my knowledge 20:02:05 and once it was someone else who reported it 20:02:09 like "if we slip here, turn this on, bash these here, turn that off and turn on the laser, it hits the block to open up the passageway accidentally" 20:02:22 there's a lot of randomness in level generation 20:02:28 for that level 20:02:39 so you can't even influence it in the level play itself 20:04:43 what's up with IX#7? 20:04:53 (and is there a more standard naming convention than what I'm using?) 20:05:02 you are using the standard 20:05:13 although in the dev versions, we generally just use names as the numbers aren't fixed yet 20:05:14 even 1.1new? 20:05:19 as in 1.1new#foo 20:05:27 not for that 20:05:33 quite obvious, though 20:05:37 you use the names in the Enigma packs, as every level's in one of those 20:05:44 hard to look up, though 20:05:51 yes, I know 20:05:53 it's technically in the level info, but 20:06:16 have you seen the opal levels, by the way? 20:06:19 minopal, symopal, etc 20:06:25 is there enigma pong? oh, you made it didn't you? 20:06:27 ais523: nope; pack? 20:06:41 I seem to recall your enigma pong sucking 20:06:42 ehird: 1.1 new has several, or I'll find a reference in VIII if you like 20:06:45 it did 20:06:47 I haven't submitted it 20:07:02 * ehird searches for opal 20:07:07 VIII#56 is the first 20:07:12 What's the first? Minopal? 20:07:18 Symopal? Brilliant Opals? 20:07:19 VIII#57 is the only one I've actually done, though 20:07:35 (Minopal's first) 20:07:36 (and Coober Peddy is the one I've done) 20:08:00 hmm... 20:08:05 * ehird has an idea for enigma tennis 20:08:26 it's one of those little white balls, and the lua code makes it jump across some solid blocks when it hits 20:08:32 can't do bouncing, but oh well 20:08:40 why solid? 20:08:47 just use st_portal_pearl 20:08:47 you could enforce e.g. 1 hit/2 hits max 20:08:53 which bounces everything but little white balls 20:08:54 ais523: because you should bash into it 20:08:57 ah 20:08:59 well that's good then 20:09:14 oh jesus@minopal 20:09:19 (for most of the things you want in Enigma, there'll be some object that does something similar...) 20:10:40 is minopal meant to be hard? 20:10:49 I'm not sure 20:10:52 most of the new levels /are/ hard 20:10:59 it's just tedious so far 20:11:04 sufficiently so that I'm deliberately aiming to make easier ones to bring the average difficulty down 20:11:12 the issue with opal levels normally happens towards the end 20:11:21 when you end up stranding a couple of the opals 20:11:24 oh 20:11:26 well I'm fucked then 20:11:31 I've just been bashing them semi-randomly 20:11:35 and finding matching ones 20:14:28 ais523: idea for enigma tennis - oxyds randomly appear on the opponent's side 20:14:38 so not only do you have to shoot in a way advantageous to you over the AI, you have to try and hit the oxyds 20:14:51 ouch, creating and deleting oxyds is a pain 20:14:52 (and the opponent can, at your side, shoot blocks which invert your movement or something and act as obstacles for you to boot) 20:14:56 do you mean, just randomly generating them? 20:15:11 yes, I guess 20:15:18 the latter idea is even more fun, though 20:15:29 you have to avoid it because it'll harm you, and you have to desperately defend it from your opponent 20:15:34 until it disappears 20:15:44 (maybe it disappears by hitting a block on the opponent's side) 20:15:54 why would you defend an oxyd from your opponent? 20:16:00 not an oxyd 20:16:00 it doesn't matter who hits it 20:16:05 defending a quake stone would be more fun 20:16:07 ais523: because it inverts your movement 20:16:13 ah 20:16:15 so you have to avoid it, and stop your opponent hitting it 20:16:19 quake - like earthquake? 20:16:21 that'd work too 20:16:23 just that sort of stuff 20:16:26 I'm not sure if there are any movement-inversion stones, although you could script it with a monoflop 20:16:29 quake = reset all oxyds 20:16:35 ouch :D 20:16:38 hmm 20:16:41 could you do an earthquake? 20:16:44 move all blocks left 20:16:46 move all blocks right 20:16:50 other ideas: cracks (that cause the floor to weaken and eventually disappear), that's earthquake-like 20:16:51 (including balls and everything) 20:16:54 except the player 20:16:56 rapidly 20:16:59 for a few seconds 20:17:03 (also a few blocks instead of one, likely) 20:17:12 maybe make the player shake a bit to boot 20:17:22 ais523: oh man, cracks would be great 20:17:27 what happens if the ball goes in :D 20:17:32 the tennis ball 20:17:39 it would lose a life and respawn 20:17:47 I double-punned this into Enigmenace, but that doesn't mention tennis :P 20:17:50 a bit weird for tennis balls to lose life, but that's the way the game works... 20:17:52 Enigmennis 20:18:11 ais523: could it be rescripted so that the ball, as soon as it hits it, just disappears and you lose a point? 20:18:31 at the end of the game, you have to wait a certain amount of time depending on the final score, too 20:18:33 (to add to the time) 20:18:33 just give it infinite lives, that's pretty simple 20:18:44 ah, i thought you meant respawn the whole player 20:18:48 and no, make it so you win when you're, say, 10 points up 20:18:57 sure 20:19:30 ofc, you'd die if the player fell through a crack 20:19:38 so even a simple it_crack_s would be rather dangerous 20:19:42 even if was set not to spread fast 20:20:44 couldn't you give the player infinite lives for that part? 20:20:49 well 20:20:54 more fun: a life dispenser 20:20:57 otoh, the player falling through the crack should count as a death, no? 20:21:00 somewhere off the court, say 20:21:00 ais523: ha! 20:21:01 have time-out 20:21:02 s 20:21:04 s/\ns/s/ 20:21:11 so you had to neglect the game for a bit to stock up 20:21:14 except in the time-outs, there's one of those things that chase you and kill you 20:21:20 likewise, you could have a switch that fixed the floor 20:21:22 and an extra sort of level thing 20:21:27 haha, this'll be great 20:24:39 ais523: the AI would have to be pretty good, though 20:24:43 otherwise it'd be easy 20:24:50 ais523: ooh, how about a block that connects you to the tennis ball? 20:24:57 or, that connects the opponent to you 20:25:08 a switch that adds a rubberband? wouldn't be too hard 20:25:20 or you could have it happen when the opponent ran over a rubberband item 20:25:20 yep, the question is what sort of game mechanics it leads to 20:25:44 improving the AI shouldn't be hard with the new API 20:25:50 which lets you do much more interesting things than the old one did 20:25:58 Horrible, horrible idea: multiball mode! 20:26:15 Leading to additional idea: Enigma pinball. 20:26:30 I thought of that, but the flippers would be hard to do 20:26:35 and you couldn't really see what was going on 20:26:43 you can't in some pinball games for dos, either 20:26:48 with the scrolling mode 20:26:49 (without some crazy messing about with primary actors and scroll modes; actually, I think I know how to do that) 20:28:40 the trick would be to set the pinball as the primary actor for the player, but make it uncontrollable 20:28:44 probably using space or zero adhesion 20:28:48 come to think of it, you wouldn't need other actors 20:28:56 and for flippers, just put areas of controllable floor 20:30:31 and put oxyds around the level? 20:31:01 in typical pinbally places, I suppose 20:31:12 the main issue would be the lack of angled surfaces 20:31:27 anyway, Enigmennis, with its horrible name, sounds like a more fun idea 20:31:31 without those it would look unrealistic and be hard to prevent the ball getting stuck 20:32:42 Enigma should add networked multiplayer, I can see a lot of potential in both cooperative and competitive levels 20:32:54 like one where you need to move both the black and white balls at the same time to achieve something; cooperative 20:32:59 or enigmennis; competitive 20:34:42 they want to add networked multiplayer 20:34:51 but apparently it's rather hard due to the way the code is structured 20:34:57 (and lag could destroy it quite easily) 20:35:26 there's already ways to set levels to work as networked multiplayer levels 20:35:29 but no way to test the result 20:38:23 so, you can do an enigma level totally in lua with a shitty xml description file right? 20:38:41 is there a point-'n-click editor for laying out the basic structure? 20:39:22 not if you want anything that produces anything more recent than the 0.83 level format 20:39:26 with 0.83 objects 20:39:34 hmph 20:39:34 on the other hand, the new Lua API is very good 20:39:44 yes, but I have to memorise silly symbols for the basic layout :) 20:39:46 even though the XML wrapper's a bit annoying 20:39:52 and you don't memorise symbols 20:39:56 you write your own list 20:39:56 can you put the lua in a separate file? 20:40:07 and I think that might be worse 20:40:09 and no 20:40:23 have a look at the source for a simple level, like my Three Times Through 20:40:32 it's basically a list of tile definitions, followed by an ASCII art map of tiles 20:40:44 "Garbage Collection? In a kernel module? 20:40:44 As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time staring at a spinning clock on a blackberry because *its* code is all written in garbage-collected Java, no thanks." 20:40:58 Because a mobile with Java is totally comparable with GHC on a desktop. 20:41:12 GHC? in a kernel module? 20:41:18 http://tommd.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/kernel-modules-in-haskell/ 20:41:21 you betcha 20:41:29 oh, I thought you meant embedding the compiler 20:41:41 kghc would be kind-of fun, after all 20:41:46 (proof-of-concept of course; uses the House OS's ghc patch so it's ghc 6.8.2 which is years old; latest is 6.10.14) 20:41:52 I've thought of making C-INTERCAL have a kernel module version just for the sheer ridiculousness 20:41:57 *6.10.4 20:42:04 ais523: I'd run that on my laptop. No joke. 20:42:07 as in, you can compile INTERCAL in your kernel! 20:42:21 if I do that, I'd make it output kernel modules 20:42:27 I mean, yeah, sane Ubuntu and all, but I *am* silly and my OS should reflect that. 20:42:29 although, it would have to use a userspace C compiler as part of it 20:43:08 i'm so happy to be using metacity instead of compiz 20:43:10 compiz sucks. 20:43:25 hmm... I kind-of like compiz 20:43:29 on hardware where it works properly 20:43:35 it looks snazzy at first 20:43:38 but one, it's unstable 20:43:40 and when it doesn't clash with software 20:43:42 two, it places windows really terribly 20:43:44 I mean, completely unusably 20:43:52 oh, I normally have windows maximised 20:43:57 three, that fading of windows and menus gets tiring when you realise it makes you wait longer 20:44:21 ais523: it can either place windows in corners (retarded), center all of them (retarded), or cascade from the top-left regardless of the positions of existing windows (retarded) 20:44:28 Metacity's is 1000x saner 20:44:44 I use it for keyboard shorcuts 20:44:58 like control-super-n to tell my music player to put up a notification about the name of the current track 20:45:08 (I wrote that shortcut, it isn't a default) 20:45:17 what's that got to do with compiz? 20:45:31 it's compiz that implements the shortcut 20:45:43 i'm sure you can do that without replacing your wm 20:46:17 hmm... I wonder how I record loopback in Audacity on linux 20:46:23 as in, record what's about to be sent to the speakers 20:48:23 also, Audacity's about dialog ends with the button "OK... Audacious!" 20:48:26 I can just imagine the developer there, going 20:48:33 "how will people know audacity is something special? something different?" 20:48:40 "we need to demonstrate that we're fun... and unconventional" 20:48:43 tap tap tap 20:48:50 set_label(okBtn, "OK... Audacious!"); 20:48:54 "Perfect!" 20:49:31 My version doesn't have the exclamation point there. 20:50:08 Audacity also has a screenshot tool built-in. 20:50:26 do you know what that means, someone came across that line 20:50:27 looked at it 20:50:28 considered it 20:50:31 added an exclamation point 20:50:33 and then moved on 20:50:41 THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE >_< 20:50:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 20:50:53 also, fucking hell 20:50:56 it really does have a screenshot tool 20:51:30 There's a "Blue Bkgnd" button in the screenshot tool. 20:51:45 indeed: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/audacity-screenshot-tool.png 20:51:46 awful 20:51:59 Did you take that screenshot with the tool? :p 20:52:16 * ehird wonders what those black pixels in the top-right of that window are 20:52:16 fizzie: no, GNOME's :P 20:52:24 and told it to add the window shadow, because I was feeling fancy 20:52:31 ah, I think the pixels around the edge are from the background; it's dropshadowing a rectangle 20:52:36 whereas the window isn't rectangle 20:53:12 My GTK is uglier, ha-ha: http://zem.fi/~fis/audacap.png 20:53:46 Indeed it is. 20:53:53 Mine's the default Ubuntu 9.10 theme; quite appealing, 20:53:55 *appealing. 20:54:07 fizzie: Yours makes it look slightly more organised, though. 20:54:27 fizzie: That's not a bad theme. Just quite sparse. 20:54:45 I think the theme is something called "Mist". I played around with the GTK settings a bit, then mostly gave it up. 20:54:45 Mine's rather easier to differentiate widgets, though. 20:54:50 Also my font rendering is nicer. :P 20:54:55 Yeah, it's Mist. 20:55:18 It's far better than some of the truly sinful KDE themes. 20:55:32 It's got a bit unconventional-looking checkboxes; it just draws a smaller filled rectangle in the box, instead of an X. 21:03:39 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:08:21 ais523: is there a good level to copy the file of for lua-heavy stuff? 21:08:33 there are some template levels 21:08:48 it's best to use a lua-light level and then add to it, I find 21:08:55 as lua-heavy levels tend to be rather different in the heavy stuff 21:10:13 right, but I don't actually know any of the lua 21:13:18 the docs are pretty good 21:13:41 I sort of have an allergy to manual-format docs 21:13:44 s/ I/I/ 21:15:52 it's actually Texinfo, I'm almost certain 21:16:05 that was a joke right 21:16:49 ais523: VIII#8 - I have a feeling from the starting message that the solution to this level is going to (a) make me groan (b) be terribly nerdy 21:17:16 ehird: not a joke: it gives links Texinfo-style, and occasionally they mess it up and raw Texinfo gets into the docs 21:17:30 I mean documents in the writing style of a manual. 21:17:39 ah 21:17:41 As opposed to, e.g. a series of tutorials (which I can tolerate if they're short). 21:17:56 the docs are about writing levels, I'd expect them to be manually 21:18:03 Mostly manuals read like a list of "here's stuff we couldn't fit in elegantly, so we'll try and sort of connect them together into one huge essay" 21:18:07 especially as they describe the API, and the behaviour of every object in the game, etc 21:18:45 API references, I can do. Tutorials, I can do. Examples dissected bit-by-bit, I can do. Pseudo-essays attempting to tie a bunch of dry prose about the facts, I can't do. 21:19:31 it gets better later on 21:20:28 I haven't read it; I was just defining what a manual is. :P 21:22:27 ais523: VIII#43 aaaargh 21:22:39 agreed 21:22:57 (wtf@coffee in a meditation level) 21:23:32 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:23:37 hi impomatic 21:23:53 Hi ais523 :-) 21:24:11 unfortunaletly --VIII#70 21:24:37 there are too many levels like that one, unfortunately 21:24:44 illmind obviously wrote t his 21:24:46 *this 21:24:53 "hihi", bad grammar and spelling, ~foo~ 21:24:59 Not much recent action on the BF Joust hill :-( 21:25:05 unfortunately not 21:25:12 ehird: Babylon? no, that was mecke, who has similar style 21:25:20 I think we're running out of BF Joust ideas 21:25:23 ais523: ah 21:25:32 Idea: Enigma Joust. 21:25:40 ugh, how would that work? 21:25:45 no idea; horribly 21:25:58 Would enigma map making be TC? 21:26:02 I guess not 21:26:08 Yes 21:26:10 It has Lua scripting 21:26:14 Ah 21:26:38 I think it's TC even without, so long as something like a coin dispenser were implemetned 21:26:40 *implemented 21:26:53 you could use timings on coinslots as Minsky machine variables 21:29:17 That actually sounds like some interesting limitations 21:31:38 so wait, enigma levels can be tc on their own? 21:32:23 not quite, as it's hard to see how to get infinite storage 21:32:49 coinslots would work by storing unbounded numbers in time (assuming the engine can handle unbounded times, which I suspect it can't) 21:33:02 how does deathbridge change under hard? 21:33:15 ehird: the glass is replaced by a solid deathstone, rather than vanishing 21:33:20 so you can't shortcut by hitting it on the corner 21:33:41 danger flag? 21:33:56 free extra life on easy 21:34:17 on your starting square, so you basically just start with 3 of them rather than 2 21:34:20 I've even forgotten how to survive past losing your lives... 21:34:56 * ehird wonders what... that one... is 21:35:05 which one 21:35:22 It has a floppy thing in it, and crumbling tiles 21:35:26 and a black background 21:35:39 well 21:35:43 crumble behind you tiles 21:35:45 all crumbling tiles apart from, like, two safe spots 21:36:39 I like that one 21:36:43 the second screen's nasty, though 21:36:44 what's it called? 21:36:50 I can't remember 21:38:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 21:43:59 gah 21:47:40 ais523: no idea? 21:47:54 no 21:48:24 write a quick shellscript using grep to scan for all levels containing both it_floppy and it_crack? 21:48:32 that'll be tons 21:48:33 (actually, make that [-_] as the items were renamed) 21:48:57 IV#96 is really hard 21:49:41 $ grep -rl 'it[-_]floppy' . | xargs grep -l 'it[-_]crack' | wc -l 21:49:42 16 21:49:53 well, alright then 21:49:55 what directory? 21:50:12 7 I know aren't there due to being in the wrong levelpacks 21:50:30 I'll run the others through less 21:50:59 is "No Jumping Necessary" in Enigma I the one you're thinking of/ 21:51:04 it was the first one, which is nice 21:51:47 yep 21:51:49 is it the one you were? 21:51:58 yes 21:52:39 "Rhapsody on Cracks" also fits your description, it seems (apart from the black background), but it isn't that one I was thinking of 21:52:50 "Intel porting their Concurrent Collections library to Haskell" 21:52:59 so is haskell still irrelevant? 21:54:56 it will always be irrelevant, even when everyone in the world uses it 21:55:03 :D 21:56:10 I know I saw an interview with someone at Microsoft Research who said that Haskell was producing useful ideas for F#, which would eventually filter into C# 21:56:13 I think he was missing the point 21:56:37 no, he was advertising MS technologies. 21:56:46 ah, fair enough 21:56:57 shit, am I really turning into a cynical foss zealot :) 21:57:00 trying to force Haskell into anything else just seems wrong, though 21:57:13 ehird: you can be cynical without being a floss zealot 21:57:18 true 21:57:20 I'm happy to be cynical all the time 21:57:39 anyway, C# does an impressive job of not seeming like a hodge-podge with its functional features, but the only haskelly thing it has is LINQ 21:57:44 worse, I'm both cynical /and/ idealistic, which is almost but not quite a contradiction 21:57:49 Also, you can be cynical of Microsoft without being a zealot. 21:58:01 Microsoft has done much to justify cynicism. 21:58:07 pI\Uffffffff pikhq --my IRC client 21:58:08 yes 21:58:11 except the \U displays as [X] 21:58:17 when tabbing pi 21:58:18 :| 21:58:19 anyway 21:58:29 pikhq: true, but Haskell comes out of Microsoft Research, practically 21:58:43 spj, marlow, ... 21:59:21 I used to think Microsoft Research was funded by Microsoft to try to make them look good 21:59:26 after all, big reward, low cost 21:59:30 but I'm no longer sure 21:59:34 ehird: And Microsoft Research is quite different from the rest of Microsoft. "Do interesting things. Make it make our stuff better if you can." versus "PROFIT IS IMPERATIVE. COMPETITION DETECTED. EXTERMINATE!" 21:59:57 yeah 21:59:57 I might work at Microsoft Research, but never Microsoft 22:00:08 although MS research would probably force me to use windows 22:00:14 You are given 1,000,000.00 22:00:15 22:00:15 InboxX 22:00:15 22:00:15 22:00:15 Reply 22:00:17 22:00:19 | 22:00:21 British 2009 Program 22:00:23 to info 22:00:25 22:00:27 show details 19:05 (2 hours ago) 22:00:29 22:00:31 You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide 22:00:33 your Name,Address,Occupation 22:00:35 oops, sorry for the spam 22:00:37 didn't look like that in gmail 22:00:41 anyway, the above is an example of (a) beautiful minimalist expression, (b) lottery spam 22:00:43 that's the whole email 22:00:49 "You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide 22:00:49 your Name,Address,Occupation" 22:00:51 that's it 22:00:53 no lottery 22:00:55 nothing 22:01:02 british telecom, in promoting with their 2009 program, have given you a million pounds. 22:01:07 simple. 22:01:14 how are you meant to reply to it? 22:01:19 to promote goodwill to their products, I guess. 22:01:19 just to the email's reply address? 22:01:21 ais523: yes 22:01:27 it's from telecom58@9.cn 22:01:31 keyword "58" 22:01:38 9.cn is a suspiciously short domain name 22:01:43 it's hosted by Windows Live 22:01:49 as a custom domain thing 22:01:59 toinfo@rog 22:02:02 I want info@rog 22:03:34 also, did you know that n@ai (or something) is a valid address? it's owned by an Ian, who is the tech guy for the NIC of that domain 22:03:38 fun fact. 22:03:47 yes, I did know that 22:04:05 prolly cause i mentioned it before 22:05:01 I bet that breaks loads of email validation regexen 22:05:11 almost all 22:05:19 but how cool is it to administer a root TLD? 22:05:26 you literally own the domain "ai" 22:05:28 well, ai. 22:05:31 but still 22:05:35 hmm... 22:05:57 whoever mainly administrates the root domain should give themselves @. 22:05:58 like, e@. 22:06:05 for short (like you wouldn't say google.com.), e@ 22:06:22 or make it a symbol 22:06:23 !@. 22:06:28 the only totally symbolic email address 22:06:42 ooh 22:06:44 or an empty one 22:06:48 ais523: is an empty email address valid? 22:06:49 it isn't is it 22:06:52 like, @domain.com 22:06:55 didn't we conclude it wasn't? 22:07:05 I thought it was 22:07:10 not sure, though 22:07:15 well, anyway, your email would be @ 22:07:15 or @. 22:07:18 @ would be a great email address if valid 22:07:25 totally 22:07:28 From: Elliott Hird <@> 22:07:32 Organization: ICANN 22:07:33 is it even possible to give the route domain an MX? 22:07:35 *root domain 22:07:56 `dig .` outputs an SOA record and nothing else 22:08:00 and I'm not sure what SOA is 22:08:05 but, considering that it gives \ 22:08:12 s/gives \\$/gives/ 22:08:13 .1447INSOAA.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. NSTLD.VERISIGN-GRS.COM. 2009092900 1800 900 604800 86400 22:08:18 they can almost certainly add things to it 22:08:55 SOA is "start-of-authority", but I don't see why you couldn't put other records there too. 22:09:24 hmm... if . is a separator, then surely . cannot be the absolute root domain 22:09:28 With -t any it also gives 13 NS records. 22:09:28 after all, it's empty . empty 22:09:36 so what'st he empty after it? :D 22:11:03 Right, obviously it has the name server records. 22:11:18 *what's the 22:11:24 also: http:// should be a valid website 22:11:30 actually, better in gopher 22:11:35 And "foo" generally stands for "foo.". 22:11:35 $ dig -t any "" 22:11:35 dig: '' is not a legal name (unexpected end of input) 22:11:35 :( 22:12:41 fizzie: That's what I meant. 22:12:54 . is a separator, right? 22:13:01 So the components of foo. are ["foo",""] 22:13:11 In conclusion: . isn't the absolute root domain; it's ["",""]. 22:13:13 :-P 22:13:56 ais523: the massive politics surrounding adding an MX record to the root domain for personal use would be ridiculously huge, and you want to put an A record in there?! 22:14:06 or AAAA, or CNAME, whatever 22:14:20 ehird: it would be funny if it looked like one of those Windows help-on-first-run screens 22:14:23 "Welcome to the Internet!" 22:14:35 The thing after @ is either dot-atom or domain-literal. dot-atom expands to dot-atom-text. dot-atom-text expands to atext+ ('.' atext+). To get one character, one is left with atext and that can't expand to '.'. So dot-atom can't expand to '.'. This leaves domain-literal, but those are enclosed in '[]'. The stuff in middle is dcontent. Dcontent -> dtext and dtext includes '.' 22:14:56 So, it would need to be in form '@[.]' 22:15:18 ais523: or, since it's at the end of every domain, one of those "you have reached the end of the internet" pages 22:15:29 it would be more like the start 22:16:52 No, I mean "blah.com" is actually written "blah.com." in DNS messages and zone files and so on, so the . is a bit of a not-really-just-a-label-separator there too. 22:16:52 ais523: but it's at the end of every domain! 22:17:13 I know, fizzie. 22:17:39 Ilari: sucks 22:17:45 still, @[.] is a pretty awesome email 22:17:48 Hmm... Is 'foo@example.net' the same as 'foo@[example.net]'? 22:19:06 Not quite. 22:19:11 It does not take into account MX records. 22:19:24 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:19:25 "In the domain-literal form, the domain is interpreted as the literal Internet address of the particular host." 22:19:27 what does it do instead? 22:19:38 so you can't have an email in the root domain 22:19:39 heh 22:19:53 So sending to foo@[example.net] will not look for example.net's mail servers; it'll look for any A records for example.net, and send mail there. 22:20:25 well 22:20:28 if you gave . an A record 22:20:28 The ways domain mail receive capability can appear in DNS records: 1) MX record. 2) SRV record on SMTP 3) A record. 4) AAAA record. 22:20:31 you could have @[.] 22:21:21 ok, /this/ is why we need an A record for the root domain 22:22:00 are you sure that's a good reason :D 22:22:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:22:05 -!- ehird has joined. 22:22:11 actually, it's a bad reason, which is the reason why it's a good idea 22:23:32 Heh. ac. has freaking A record! 22:24:11 http://ac/ 22:24:12 quite 22:24:19 http://ac./ is different though, huh 22:24:32 my browser goes to ac.com from that, which is parked 22:24:54 Except that root servers don't report it... Hmm... 22:25:16 It also has a legal disclaimer TXT record. 22:25:21 ac descriptive text "The AC zone file is protected under national and international law as a database compilation." 22:25:21 ac descriptive text "Access to the .AC Zone File information does not in itself convey any rights to any party to use, store, manipulate, such information without the explicit written consent of ICB plc, P.O.Box 4040 Christchurch, BH23 1XW, UK." 22:25:25 But their authoritative NS does. 22:25:34 we can't store the results? 22:25:44 Well, why should the root servers know anything else then NS records for 'ac'? 22:25:45 they should have added "cache" 22:26:07 It's not like .com nameservers would know what's the A record for example.com either. 22:26:38 af. has A record as well. ai. has MX and A! 22:26:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:26:40 who owns example.com, btw? 22:26:47 presumably someone's responsible for maintaining it 22:26:52 IANA 22:27:02 makes sense 22:27:03 IIRC... 22:27:36 Domain Name: EXAMPLE.COM 22:27:36 Registrar: RESERVED-INTERNET ASSIGNED NUMBERS AUTHORITY 22:27:57 IANA IIRC OTOH IANAL BTW YHBT YHL HAND 22:28:40 it would be great if IANA stood for "I am not a" 22:28:42 Yup, AI. NS reports the MX record too... 22:28:42 Example.com will expire in 13-aug-2011; would be nice if they'd manage not to renew it. (But unlikely, since it's listed like so that they are the registrar, not just a regular owner.) 22:29:06 as. also has an MX record. 22:29:30 best of all would be if the root domain got parked 22:29:37 but surely people will remember to renew that? 22:29:43 Apparently E-Mail addresses directly under TLDs are not just urban legends.... 22:29:56 And tm. has an A record too. 22:30:05 Also SPF txt record. 22:31:36 ais523: you can't exactly register . :P 22:31:38 Ilari: I told you that 22:31:43 n@ai or i@an or similar 22:31:45 I forget whicj 22:31:47 *which 22:32:12 There's a web server in the "tm." address, but I can't get my Firefox to go there, it just goes to www.tm.com even if I type the full "http://tm/". 22:32:18 ehird: what's the chance at least one registrar will give you the chance to monitor . so as to be notified when its registration expires? 22:32:43 67% 22:32:44 brb 22:34:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:36:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:36:11 fizzie: At least links2 could work (http://example complains about host not found). 22:40:21 If its one of those two, it must be n@ai since an. isn't mail-capable. 22:44:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:47:00 back. 22:47:06 Ilari: yeah, I think it was n@ai 22:49:19 "Wait, so person A always lies on opposite day if person B, who always not tells the untruth, reveals a goat behind door 2 and person A says they will unswitch the complex conjugate of their answer because person C always tells a clown joke when person A tells the opposite of the unlie, right?" 22:49:28 but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai? 22:49:36 wut 22:49:48 ehird: sounds like an esolang 22:51:23 obviously, it was their mother 22:51:56 what 22:54:10 the doctor, unless there was an untruth i missed 22:56:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:56:17 "but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai?" is what i mean 22:56:20 joke on ai? 22:57:03 Ask oerjan that in -60 seconds from now 22:57:23 nah, just retroactively edit one of your previous posts 22:57:39 ais523: why do you keep referencing internet forums, it makes me sad because they all suck 22:58:02 which one? 22:58:09 ? 22:58:29 I mean, which one do I reference 22:58:36 not which one sucks 22:58:44 "forums" 22:58:47 in general 22:58:55 like editing posts, topic locking, etc :P 22:59:34 Nothing's wrong with that kind of humour 22:59:45 I like the forums discussion, though 22:59:53 * FireFly stickys the topic 22:59:59 ehird: because IRC has a sufficient lack of equivalents that I had to use a slightly warped analogy 23:00:23 i know, but it's upsetting because editing posts is the worst thing ever dreamt of :P 23:00:28 I suppose the IRC equivalent to stickying would be setting a join message in ChanServ, or changing the topic 23:00:35 and it depends on the forum 23:00:46 Well, the topic is already always on the top 23:00:48 over on mag-heut it works pretty well, but that's because of the way mag-heut works 23:00:54 So I guess unstickying would be harder 23:01:02 conversation is linear, reading is linear, it's so easily abused, and it encourages not thinking before you post 23:01:27 besides, unless it's correcting a typo, it'll inevitably lead to confusion with regards to the following posts; and does that typo REALLY matter so much? 23:03:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:26:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:42:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").