00:00:08 ehird, yeah I was just wondering if that is what you was going "??" about 00:00:09 in fact 00:00:19 Why you were responding about that topic when my quote was about the bad writing. 00:00:32 why not 00:00:47 Because ... I already know 00:00:50 s/$/?/ 00:00:59 how should I know you know 00:01:08 Because I quoted from the article about it? 00:01:26 ehird, didn't know if it was *all* that shoddy writing 00:01:29 or just that part 00:01:33 wait, are you sure that "tree" is not vandalism? 00:01:38 * oerjan checks 00:01:43 oerjan: It's a forest analoy 00:01:47 *analogy 00:01:54 See later in the article 00:01:57 Except it kinda leaves out the steps of reasoning 00:02:26 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:08:45 so, I had possibly the worst or best idea ever, probably worst 00:09:23 (also less hyperbolic, BUT.) 00:11:45 very elliptic summary 00:11:51 hur hur 00:11:53 ... 00:16:27 i'd tell it but nobody's asking :D 00:17:25 do 00:17:44 have you ever played enigma 00:20:21 oklofog 00:21:33 ehird, I have. And I'm wondering too 00:21:38 and iirc oklofog has 00:22:09 * oerjan has never played enigma, so clearly he cannot be wondering 00:22:11 3d enigma 00:22:19 third-person naturally... 00:22:38 (a true extension of enigma to 3d would allow arbitrary movement on the z-axis, but that's more boring than having gravity) 00:22:42 sorry but it sounds kind of "neither best or worst" 00:22:46 3d, 3p, what's the difference 00:23:01 AnMaster: thus "also less hyperbolic" :P 00:23:09 I think it'd be fun if pulled off right 00:23:12 but it'd be easy to get it wrong 00:23:16 ehird, indeed 00:23:22 it sounds like possibly great 00:23:33 camera movement would be a pain 00:23:41 but not with Sufficiently Smart Coding(TM) 00:24:06 ehird yeah you might need to have special casing on some levels for where to move the camera 00:24:13 yeah 00:24:16 like many commercial games 00:24:50 and I think it'd be best to have fps-style movement; turn around with mouse and a key for forwards 00:25:00 moving your mouse up and repositioning constantly to go forwards would be a pain 00:25:02 hm 00:25:05 maybe 00:25:12 ehird, a bit hard to move as fast though 00:25:15 (no keys for strafe left/right or go backwards; that'd be un-enigmalike) 00:25:22 AnMaster: hmm... good point 00:25:33 eh, it'd be a matter of experimentation to find out something good 00:25:48 ehird, on the other hand you could make levels that are more fit to the speed you can manage that way 00:25:54 * ehird wonders if there should be a jump key or whether that should be an item like in Enigma 00:26:01 I mean, obviously the same type of levels wouldn't work 00:26:04 right 00:26:15 3d chess pieces :D 00:26:22 yeah why not 00:26:28 as in, they move up and down too 00:26:37 you have to hit them the right way to position them so you can jump on them as platforms to get higher 00:26:47 oh nice 00:26:49 like, making a sort of staircase 00:27:02 ehird, a bit hard to stand on a round chess piece 00:27:15 they aren't round in enigma, they're square 00:27:24 i guess the 3d thing would be harder, though 00:27:32 ehird, you are on ubuntu right? Install the game "kiki the nanobot" quite a fun puzzle game in 3D 00:27:40 kay 00:27:55 *nano bot; didn't find it because of that 00:28:05 with optional 1P/3P camera 00:28:12 anyway, I'd have a temptation to code this, but OpenGL is a bitch :( 00:28:23 oh man 00:28:27 AnMaster: 3d meditation 00:28:31 that would be horrific 00:28:32 the first levels are easy, gets very hard later on 00:28:43 ehird, ouch yeah 00:29:44 you know those huge levels like VI#100, The Aztec Temple? 00:29:53 those would be, like, city-sized :D 00:29:57 ehird, yeah never managed that 00:30:25 ehird, tried the game I mentioned? 00:30:29 just installed now 00:30:31 ah 00:30:39 hmm... mouse-to-turn-and-key-to-go-forwards would be odd without first-person view 00:30:46 (and first-person view isn't conductive to puzzles or whatnot) 00:30:59 ehird, hint: gravity exists, but where down is is up to you 00:31:02 (in kiki) 00:31:06 o_O 00:31:17 ehird, about my comment? 00:31:18 argh it fiddled with my gamma settings 00:31:19 yes 00:31:31 ehird, it did? 00:31:33 huh 00:31:36 yeah set it to 5 00:31:41 didn't here 00:32:32 the camera makes me dizzy 00:32:41 ehird, change the camera mode 00:32:44 yeah 00:32:45 pgdown or pgup iirc 00:32:53 ah, third-person-always-face-robot is good 00:33:01 so what's this thing about gravity 00:33:13 oh god 00:33:16 you can move onto walls :D 00:33:20 ehird, yes 00:33:26 things fall, you do if you jump 00:33:28 and then jump :D 00:33:32 and move wall 00:33:33 but where down is depends on where your down is 00:33:34 mid-air 00:33:34 Where do I find this thingy? 00:33:38 ubuntu packages 00:33:44 FireFly, package is "kiki" iirc 00:33:46 http://kiki.sourceforge.net/ 00:33:48 he uses arch 00:33:52 ah good 00:33:56 I use kubuntu 00:33:57 probably in debian too 00:34:00 ah 00:34:03 kiki - tool for python regular expression testing 00:34:11 nop 00:34:15 And http://kiki.sourceforge.net/download/index.html says Mac and Windows version ._. 00:34:25 FireFly, um it is in ubuntu 00:34:26 http://sourceforge.net/projects/kiki/ 00:34:28 will have source 00:34:30 presumably 00:34:31 ehird, anyway how do you like the game? 00:34:36 haven't got the first level right 00:34:38 *yet 00:34:39 not right 00:34:49 ehird, quite trivial first one 00:35:03 there we go 00:35:18 ehird, in fact the first few levels are just about learning concepts of the game 00:35:43 there is help available somewhere 00:35:45 for each level 00:35:48 in the menu iirc 00:36:50 it often looks like kiki is levitating above the floor. 00:36:59 oh? haven't noticed 00:38:22 how on earth do you do #3, I've moved the block, what do I shoot 00:38:37 err sec 00:38:47 laptop is rebooting atm 00:38:54 Ah, here we go 00:39:08 it froze 00:39:09 * FireFly toys around with sources.list 00:39:13 ehird, it did? 00:39:16 yep 00:39:21 never had that problem 00:39:28 xkill zzzap 00:39:48 Hm, yeah, it changes the gamma when it's the active window... :\ 00:40:09 change gamma in settings 00:40:11 but it looks best at default 00:40:21 ok move the block one square off 00:40:25 it froze again 00:40:31 crappily-written. 00:40:42 then up on that block turn around so you face the switch that was hidden 00:40:45 shoot it 00:40:49 yay i shot it 00:41:27 ehird, also it never froze for me 00:41:31 I blame your drivers 00:41:34 ATI wasn't it? 00:41:39 open source ATI even 00:42:10 yes, but i doubt it's that 00:42:18 it never froze = i never ran into that code path 00:42:43 the controls are so confusing :( 00:42:45 ok the gamma changing I see now 00:43:00 a pitty it messes up that I have different gamma set for blue 00:43:16 ehird, how are the controls confusing? work fine for me 00:43:57 * ehird cannot figure out #4 :( 00:44:44 ehird, push around the generator and the gear 00:44:47 so they line up 00:44:50 see the help 00:44:59 the help doesn't tell me that. 00:45:03 oh and generator needs to be connected to the gird 00:45:16 and the they need to be connected to the engine of course 00:45:20 ehird, pretty obvious 00:45:24 no it's not 00:45:25 to anyone with half a brain 00:45:30 fuck you too 00:46:01 "to activate the exit, feed it with electricity: connect the generator with the motor" 00:46:02 well 00:46:05 maybe it didn't say 00:46:27 the cogs are together with the motor but it isn't doing anything, anyway 00:46:55 ehird, are the generator is on the gird bit and turning? 00:47:02 no, the generator is unmovabel 00:47:04 *unmovable 00:47:14 ehird, um that is the engine that is 00:47:18 in the middle 00:47:21 I can't move it. 00:47:22 the generator is one of the other parts 00:47:26 oh 00:47:29 you mean the blocks? 00:47:40 oh, I have to connect all of those? 00:48:04 nice busywork. yay, i just pushed one into a corner and now I can't move it 00:48:54 ehird, not the blocks, there is gears and gears with something below 00:48:54 ok lets see the movements...left, forward, left, forward, left, left, backwards, jump forwards... 00:48:54 you are now on the floor 00:49:03 left, left, shift + fwd, shift + fwd 00:49:07 left 00:49:16 fwd, right, fwd 00:49:22 hm, elevate.. 00:49:26 and so on for every other block? 00:49:27 right, shift+fwd 00:49:37 just fwd 00:49:40 just fwd 00:49:44 just fwd 00:49:45 just fwd 00:50:00 then the other gears should be just behind you? 00:50:01 right 00:50:05 unless I miscounted 00:50:15 actually, following your instructions "you are now on the floor" is false :P 00:50:29 ehird, must have made a mistake, worked for me though 00:50:46 so, true/false: you have to put all the blocks on the dots 00:50:47 ehird, oh I probably mixed up left and right 00:50:49 one by one 00:50:53 ehird, false 00:50:57 the bit is 00:50:58 hm. 00:51:03 the dots on the floor are the gird 00:51:07 yes. 00:51:11 and the blocks aren't on it 00:51:15 the engine needs to be next to the gear on it 00:51:32 hmm... I'll try it later when I'm not so confused, I think :P 00:51:38 Hm 00:51:47 and the generator must be next to the gear AND on those dots 00:52:22 Oh 00:52:28 I think I'm starting to get #4 00:52:31 ehird, sec for screenshot 00:52:47 FireFly: the turning is a bitch 00:52:55 oh, #4 is the one i was on 00:52:59 in which case understanding the thing is a bitch 00:53:08 :P 00:54:19 Oh 00:54:26 Stuff happened when you shot the yellow stuff 00:54:33 * FireFly didn't notice at first 00:54:35 erm don't you mean #3 00:54:41 or 00:54:42 oh 00:54:43 no 00:55:02 ehird, http://omploader.org/vMmg0YQ 00:55:04 is that helpful? 00:55:25 hmm 00:55:25 yes 00:55:39 ehird, half a brain comment applies I think 00:55:53 you're an asshole 00:56:07 also, howcome yours has colours. 00:56:20 ehird, eh? doesn't your? all levels have colours here 00:56:30 ehird, and yes the blue is from "activating" 00:56:31 the level is grey here, with teal as the colour of the cogs 00:56:34 well 00:56:36 i guess cause it's on :P 00:56:55 ehird, as least one level had ever-shifting colour 00:57:31 what do you do if an item is against a wall 00:58:12 yay onto elevate 00:58:26 another damn generator x_x 00:58:30 ehird, from the start or not? 00:58:30 ehird, sometimes you can drop it 00:58:31 from another direction 00:58:37 ehird, easy now 00:58:41 drop? 00:58:49 also easy now why 00:58:52 i don't understand 00:59:05 ehird, shoot the yellow rotating things 00:59:09 they are bombs 00:59:27 still a generator :P 00:59:34 ehird, the next one isn't a generator level :P 00:59:35 now move up onto the ceiling and move them 00:59:54 FireFly, you mean throw? well that is the "drop" stuff 00:59:56 quite a pain 01:00:05 he didn't say anything 01:00:06 took me several minutes to figure it out 01:00:14 Well, I haven't grasped that one yet anyway 01:00:22 And yeah, Throw is it 01:00:23 FireFly, I fail to remember how. 01:00:24 i aligned the fucking cogs wrong 01:00:24 aargh 01:00:33 i'd have to move them individually 01:00:41 You have to have them align="right", you know 01:00:42 ehird, it is easy 01:00:57 hold a mouse button and move the mouse 01:00:57 etc 01:00:59 *wtf 01:01:03 haha, etc is one off from wtf 01:01:10 oh camera movement 01:01:14 ehird, eh? I use the arrow keys? 01:01:14 goes weird i you're in first-person 01:01:15 to move 01:01:30 wow why is it going all slow now 01:01:45 buggy game :| 01:01:53 ehird, not for me 01:01:56 :P 01:02:00 AnMaster, for the rop thingy.. Do I have to use anything except space, ctrl or shift? 01:02:04 rop? 01:02:08 drop* 01:02:31 FireFly, you need the arrow keys too. But never space. If it is still "throw" 01:02:39 It's still throw. 01:02:48 yeah, ctrl, shift and arrow keys 01:02:48 And, yeah, the arrow keys, I forgot those :P 01:02:58 What I meant is, there's no special key I've missed? 01:02:58 Hmm 01:03:01 space is shoot 01:03:02 FireFly, the key is that thing on the wall 01:03:10 Hmmm 01:03:13 at least for me 01:03:15 not throw 01:03:19 and moving those blocks so you can drop 01:03:22 ehird, "throw" is a level 01:03:28 that is quite a pain 01:03:29 oh 01:04:58 * FireFly spins around in a 1x1x1 box in first-person view 01:05:45 FireFly, basically you have to move the two blocks next to the fixed one, then use that to stand on the side of another and drop it in some unexpected direction. 01:06:13 Oh, there was a help thingy 01:06:18 I missed that :P 01:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:45 taking screenshots 01:09:03 I'd rather think about it than just looking up the solution 01:12:06 Gold... 01:12:29 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:13:15 01:13:19 err 01:13:25 wrong keyboard 01:14:57 All right, for now I'm stuck on Jump... interesting game, though 01:14:59 Time to sleep 01:15:01 Night 01:15:05 back 01:15:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:15:25 screenshots for ehird on throw in the pipeline 01:15:50 a total of eight 01:16:07 xD 01:16:12 ehird, why? 01:16:20 I am royalty and I demand screenshots! :P 01:16:23 it is the first tricky level 01:16:39 I mean the first 4 are dead easy 01:16:51 I'm on elevate 01:16:57 that's after 4, I think 01:17:10 ok the first *five* are dead easy 01:19:01 http://omploader.org/vMmg0ZQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zg http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zw http://omploader.org/vMmg0aA http://omploader.org/vMmg0aQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0ag http://omploader.org/vMmg0aw 01:19:15 ehird, and I'm not going to help more than I did with elevate 01:19:49 ehird, btw the thing in the lower left corner? see it? 01:19:53 Yes. 01:20:03 Is the thing in parens a par time, btw? 01:20:05 They're so low. 01:20:11 yes similar 01:20:17 I always get minus numbers. 01:20:20 first is number of moves 01:20:32 ehird, not "par" but "almost best" 01:20:46 because I got a few at 0, two at plus, and rest at minus 01:21:13 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:22:41 hi oklo 01:22:42 ... 01:22:44 oklopol 01:30:55 ehird, look at those pics if you need it. Since I know by now you have less than half a brain and that level requires at least 78% brain + a long attention span. 01:30:57 night 01:31:45 AnMaster: are you trying to be an asshole with no provocation or have you had a brain tumor 01:38:14 -!- oklofog has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:52:29 -!- coppro has joined. 01:57:53 hi coppro 01:58:12 hi 02:01:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:03:36 Did You Know... 02:03:43 ...that GNOME used to use Midnight Commander as its file browser? 02:04:00 [X] Show tips at random times 02:04:01 [ Previous ] [ Next ] [ Close ] 02:05:06 ehird, did you ever get DS working on 95? Also, I'm now interested in Dwarf Fortress, and wonder if that works 02:05:35 (a) Never got it re-downloaded. (b) Doesn't that require POSIX? 02:06:04 No. 02:06:10 "Requires Windows 98+", but I'll give it a go. 02:06:39 95 OSE1 is basically 98 sans the IE stuff, so the number of things requiring 98 instead is stupid. 02:06:54 Do you like multiple-choice questions? (a) No, they are overdone (b) No, the right option is usually missing (c) No, they are all based on the questioner's prejudices anyhow 02:06:56 Maybe I'll install 98lite (Windows 98 installer that rips out IE and adds the 95 file manager). 02:07:04 oerjan: d 02:07:49 That would be "all of the above", i assume 02:08:17 Without IE, how do you install a better browser? 02:08:54 Floppy disk, CD-ROM or the command-line "ftp". 02:09:15 also, pigeons 02:09:30 But the nice thing is that you can even delete mshtml.dll at the cost of not being able to open .chm help files; your system will be totally without any of IE's "OS-integrated" (cough cough) components. 02:09:37 Well, it's more than just mshtml.dll iirc, but whatever. 02:10:17 It was an option on the many-floppy installer; by the CD installer (OSR1) it was required. I believe you can upgrade from the original floppy version to OSR1 to bypass that. 02:10:45 Either that, or use IEradicator from the people who brought you 98. 02:10:47 erm 02:10:49 98lite 02:11:39 * ehird extracts Dwarf Fortress to c:\dwarves, since the URL is /dwarves/. 02:12:00 I need to get my Win98 iso onto my laptop at some point 02:12:00 Sgeo: I assume this game is closed source? 02:12:06 Nooo! 02:12:10 Turn to the light! Pirate 95! 02:12:30 ehird, I believe so, although I saw something involving the graphics parts being opened up for SDL 02:12:43 Right, because it tries to run KERNEL32.DLL:IsDebuggerPresent. 02:13:01 DRM: breaking your games on older OSs since You Are Retarded, It Doesn't Fucking Stop Piracy AD. :P 02:13:25 Why would Windows get to know if a debugger is present? 02:13:36 Not sure. 02:13:52 I think because you have to tell the kernel to step the program, or something. 02:14:01 Otherwise, you have to emulate all of Windows which is, uhh, "fun". 02:14:48 query: how do you debug DRM software? 02:15:09 Badly; that's why they break so much shit. 02:15:34 if the whole point is to complain when you detect a debugger 02:17:50 Compile without #define DRM ? 02:18:00 debugging the drm 02:18:01 he means 02:18:05 (they sell products for it nowadays) 02:19:21 ... 02:19:21 now, if a DRM product is based on disallowing debugging, and you sell a product to bypass that, aren't you breaking some law? >:) 02:19:50 oerjan: In the United Stupids of America, I believe you would be 02:20:23 United Stupids of America? I do believe your intellect surpasses that of those who say Micro$haft! 02:40:57 That IsDebuggerPresent sounds like useful API for malware. But not as good as CreateRemoteThread. 02:42:25 does that actually work? 02:42:34 also, malware uses it IIRC 02:42:38 you can bypass it, obviously 02:43:40 I'd do it with a disassembler, but the lazy. 02:44:11 Oh, I think it's IsDebugEnabled. 02:44:25 Hmm, no. 02:44:30 Silly me 02:44:32 I typed isdebuggerenabled 02:44:37 google said did you mean isdebugenabled 02:44:39 The reason CreateRemoteThread is useful in malware is that it can be used to inject threads which lock files or do anti-deinstallation tricks into necressary programs. 02:44:52 Oh, creates a thread in another program? 02:45:04 I remember reading an interview with Matt Knox about writing Windows malware; very interesting. 02:45:06 Create thread in another process. 02:45:11 They used that, and had no actual executable. 02:45:31 (Competing malware tries to remove it, and they have to hide from anti-malware programs while removing other malware.) 02:46:06