00:00:17 the scramble is obviously the language with equal number of a's, b's and c's 00:00:40 _but_ that is not regular 00:00:59 Yes, well, it's not supposed to be regular. 00:01:12 hm true 00:01:19 You're just supposed to show that scramble(L) is context-free. 00:01:19 but yours is linear, iirc 00:01:38 To get a regular grammar, you need to be left-linear or right-linear. 00:01:48 If you mix both styles, you don't get a necessarily regular language. 00:02:01 anyway your modification then means you have to add a, b, c in sequence, but you can add them either in front or after 00:02:29 That sounds a more likely counter-argument. 00:02:45 now need a counterexample string of that kind 00:02:52 er i mean 00:03:05 a string with equal no. abc which is not of that kind 00:03:28 So, something which doesn't parse with S -> Ta | aT | empty, T -> Ub | bU, U -> Sc | cS. 00:03:50 cabbca 00:04:24 you have to add the c last, but then you have nowhere to add b second last 00:05:02 or wait that's inside out 00:05:16 acbbac, reverse argument 00:05:39 heck even anything without a's at the ends 00:05:41 "cab" is enough, right? The three can only start with "S -> Ta" or "S -> aT"; with "S -> Ta", you'd have to add that b before the a; but you can't start with "S -> aT" because that should really start with a. 00:05:47 right 00:07:06 In other words, you can't get all permutations simply by reordering leaves in the parse tree. 00:07:15 Er, s/leaves/children/ 00:07:16 and this shows even S -> Ta | empty, T -> Ub will fail with baab 00:08:25 T -> Sb, you mean? Or something else? 00:08:31 er yes 00:10:02 so now i'm wondering about oklopol's supposedly trivial solution :D 00:11:39 I'm wondering about that too; I did try to "think in terms of automatons", but it wasn't at least immediately trivial how to recognize with a nondeterministic pushdown automaton anything that's a permutation of a word recognized by a finite state automaton. 00:16:10 in fact i'm not immediate sure about that abc language... 00:16:19 (just ab seems simple though) 00:16:52 *immediately 00:17:22 I seem to remember that a^n b^n c^n was used as an example of a non-context-free language. 00:17:40 yes me too, but the scramble _might_ make it easier 00:27:14 Hrm, well, let's look at the a^n b^n c^n proof in the scrambled light. If that "equal number of a's, b's and c's" is context-free, it obeys the context-free pumping lemma with some length "p". We can still look at the a^p b^p c^p string (which is in the language), and that can be written in the s=uvxyz form with the length limits, and so on, and so on, and the pumping will generate an unequal number of letters, which will take that example out of the language. 00:27:41 oh wait... 00:27:55 Any sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from nonsense. 00:28:02 and on that note: night → 00:28:11 i just realized. the _intersection_ of a regular and a context-free language is context-free, right? 00:28:35 Yes, I guess. 00:28:43 and a^nb^bc^n is the intersection of its scramble with a^k b^l c^m 00:28:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:29:07 so the scramble cannot possibly be context-free 00:29:09 Yes, to that too. 00:29:48 er, *and a^nb^nc^n 00:29:55 Also from the pumping lemma proof. After all, it's enough to find at least one string in the language that can't be pumped, and in that particular case the a^n b^n c^n string qualifies, since the pumping will create an unequal number of letters in there. 00:30:23 hm seems so 00:30:27 All this makes me wonder even more about oklopol's trivial solution. 00:30:54 :D 00:31:22 poor oklopol. or possibly poor teacher, if (s)he gave an exercise that is false 00:31:56 The exercise might've been "prove whether" instead of "prove that" 00:32:14 true 00:32:35 There's a related sort of a question in http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/General/comp.theory/2007-01/msg00249.html 00:32:50 oklopol: read above discussion ^ 00:33:03 (There's the scramble of a regular language of a two-symbol alphabet that's being proved to be context-free.) 00:34:09 And it is sort of implied that something else happens when there are more symbols. 00:34:32 mhm 00:36:50 I'm not sure whether I have that Sipser book it's from. I think I never actually went and got it, even though it was probably mentioned as a possibly-good-to-read book on the theoretical computer science basics course. 00:48:09 -!- ehird has joined. 00:50:47 02:40:31 so i hear there was a course in lojban in helsinki uni 00:50:47 02:41:10 (with my ears) 00:50:49 holy fucking shit 00:50:56 what was it 00:51:42 also is it university of helsinki or the helsinki university of technology 00:52:18 ehird: you're awake ALREADY/STILL? 00:52:43 I slept for 15 hours, dude 00:52:48 ah. 00:52:49 So, already 00:53:08 Damn that was some high-quality sleep. 00:53:09 i must have misrembered seeing you last time i logged on then 00:53:32 ~6:30 am yesterday I slept. 00:53:43 My client probably disconnected, as I turned off my computer. 00:53:46 (It won't sleep for some reason.) 00:54:32 03:13:42 huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework 00:54:33 03:14:15 "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence 00:54:33 underload dammit 00:55:06 09:06:13 03:13:42 huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework 00:55:06 underload my aSS 00:55:06 09:06:14 03:14:15 "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence 00:55:06 09:06:21 underload, oklopol. underload. 00:55:07 <3 00:56:02 12:43:42 from what I have heard, if computer programs were written the way programmers were promoted, there would be no such thing as an OS or a dynamically-shared library 00:56:02 those are both good things, but not in the way you mean :P 00:56:37 -!- coppro has joined. 01:00:24 I would guess UH, not HUT; it sounds more something like they'd do. 01:01:32 I wonder what it was about 01:01:37 I hope something totally unrelated 01:02:10 fizzie: like, I'm assuming in lojban means 01:02:13 taught in lojban 01:02:15 not just about lojban 01:04:50 It's organized by "Lambda ry" (where "ry" is our suffix for "registered organization"), sponsored by the cognitive science department; and the name of the course is "Practical Lojban for Travellers". 01:05:11 sounds practical yes 01:05:52 fizzie: if you travel to lojbania i guess? 01:06:19 Also Lambda ry seems to be originated by atehwa at sange.fi, or something. 01:06:25 fizzie: so, UH then? 01:06:28 lojbanania, ruled by the horrible lojunta 01:06:30 Yes. 01:07:07 atehwa rings a bell 01:07:16 oerjan: The esolang mailing list guy, I think. 01:07:24 yeah 01:07:31 At least at that time when it was hosted at sange.fi. 01:07:32 creator of? 01:07:51 I don't really remember the history, but at least "involved with". 01:09:17 "Lambda is a Helsinki University student organisation for students interested in theoretical computer science, mathematics, cognitive science, linguistics, language technology and philosophy, and the grey areas between these subjects. For example, logic, formal languages, computability and programming language theory are all subjects interesting to Lambda. While Lambda was founded largely by computer science theorists, the organisation aims for cross-scientif 01:09:17 ic cooperation across different faculties and departments." 01:09:44 the list IS hosted at sange.fi, isn't it 01:09:45 the archives 01:09:48 and the dormant list 01:10:04 Yes, I guess it technically speaking still is. 01:10:36 it still works 01:10:39 well, one of them 01:10:49 just nobody posts, not even spambots 01:10:59 me and simonrc posted last year... got responses 01:11:04 someone should start using it 01:11:21 * oerjan is technically subscribed he thinks 01:11:24 Lambda have five courses; introduction to lambda calculus, introduction to functional programming, the practical Lojban thing, practical Haskell, and formal type theory. Quite a grouping. 01:11:32 I don't remember which address I had subscribed there. 01:12:24 My iki address seems to be there in the archives, and I don't remember unsubscribing, but who knows. 01:12:38 only one way to find out 01:12:48 time to search my mail to see which list still works 01:13:35 Seems to be a bit of spam there in the archives. 01:13:52 Not very large amounts, but still. 01:15:23 fizzie: Checkmate your email! 01:16:16 I don't see anything. It's possible I've been auto-unsubscribidized during some sort of email address breakdown time. It is the shame. 01:16:22 check spam? 01:16:59 Nothing there either. Though the iki forwarding lags sometimes. 01:17:04 sci@esoteric.sange.fi (science), misc@esoteric.sange.fi (offtopic stuff; "All messages to lang@esoteric.sange.fi get propagated to this list.") and lang@esoteric.sange.fi (esolangs!) should still work. 01:17:13 List context changed to 'chat' by following command. 01:17:14 >> subscribe chat 01:17:14 Unable to generate subscription cookie! 01:17:14 >> subscribe chat 01:17:14 Unable to process request due to filesystem error. 01:17:22 chat@ no longer exists. 01:17:38 fizzie: I said it right after sending. 01:17:46 Either the lists are dead, you're not subscribed, or something is lagging. 01:18:18 Wait, now it is there. 01:18:22 fizzie: "With the powerful force of an email client and mailing list archives...", July 2008. Somewhere in your email/spam archives? 01:18:33 If it's there, there's a good chance you're still subscribed to a working list. 01:18:48 "This actually has a purpose, albeit a minor, inconsequential one." 01:18:58 Tada 01:19:00 It arrived 01:19:04 You're subscribed to a working list 01:19:08 Yayness. 01:19:32 There are 11 "Received:" headers; that's quite a lot of hoops to jump through. 01:20:23 Three people responded to my in July 08, so there's a good chance they'll go all "rabble rabble, your last message was archeology, this is spam". 01:20:39 Can I use metamail in a script to automatically download an attachment from a certain person? 01:20:41 oerjan: did you receive anything? 01:20:46 Not asking how, I'm asking "is it possible" 01:22:03 * Sgeo feels dirty inside, for treating what should be text as html, just to prevent the browser from trying to download it and open it in notepad 01:25:00 ehird: when i said i was technically subscribed, i didn't mean i actually received mail 01:25:11 check spam :P 01:25:32 what spam 01:25:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:25:44 your... spam... folder 01:25:49 where... spam... is filtered 01:25:51 i don't have any 01:26:00 sure you do, otherwise your inbox would be totally useless 01:26:00 there is not enough that i bother filtering it 01:26:07 server-side 01:26:11 at whereverplace 01:26:19 it is however filtered by nvg somewhat i guess 01:27:25 but afaik what's filtered does not end up anywhere else 01:27:37 some is only marked with Spam in the subject though 01:28:37 * oerjan actually checks that 01:29:23 nah no spam folder i haven't discovered yet 01:29:45 (there's one where i once upon a time saved spam manually after complaining about it) 01:32:35 also, by "i didn't mean i actually received mail" i meant that if i am subscribed, it's in some kind of send nothing mode 01:32:52 but i'm not sure if that list is one of those 01:33:15 well email to misc@esoteric.sange.fi and find out! 01:33:16 the agora lists are, though 01:33:26 you're actually subscribed to them? 01:33:32 technically :D 01:33:33 i don't think they have a don't-email-me mode 01:33:37 sry 01:33:48 oerjan: oh, are you not on the new agoranomic.org addresses? 01:33:52 you'll be subscribed to yoyo 01:33:53 maybe tue 01:34:03 presumably you haven't subscribed to any since you left 01:34:32 i regularly get Subject: agoranomic.org mailing list memberships reminder 01:34:44 on mailman reminder day 01:35:04 from yzma.clarkk.net 01:37:03 hm seems i actually unsubscribed from esolang 01:38:32 clarkk is indeed agora's home 01:38:37 i'm also subscribed to yoyo of course, and even receive mail on that i think 01:38:49 ah, so you get emails whenever the lists are down? 01:38:55 yep 01:38:56 so a month or so ago, sometime last year... 01:39:02 a glimpse into the game! 01:39:12 indeed 01:39:40 not sure about tue, it doesn't remind me at least 01:39:59 that's our other backup list, so even your glimpses are incomplete 01:40:14 * Sgeo has another page of quotes 01:40:17 oerjan: so wait, when you left, email just kept rolling into your inbox for years? :D 01:40:17 oh i probably receive those too, i'm just not entirely sure 01:40:27 Some nsfw material: http://normish.org/sgeo/pullet.htm 01:40:33 oerjan: (presumably you're too low-tech to use filters and folders) 01:40:39 oerjan: i'm not sure tue reminds, inded 01:40:41 *indeed 01:40:45 i have folders to save manually to 01:41:05 you moved bunches of messages into folders for years? 01:41:17 after i read them, yes 01:41:23 if i don't delete them 01:41:28 Sgeo: got bored at like 5, where i realised that all future Aerik quotes would be worthless 01:41:40 oerjan: i meant from ag ora 01:41:41 *agora 01:41:51 ehird, there's more than aerik 01:41:52 Sgeo: *line 5 01:41:57 don't care 01:42:00 ehird: for some years yes, not after the last time i left though 01:42:01 not worht trawling through teh crap 01:42:04 *worth *the 01:42:12 I'm in there a few times 01:42:21 oerjan: what then, a filter? or did you resubscribe, or just ignore them, or had we moved by then 01:42:27 i _did_ set the non-backup lists to not send me mail then 01:42:36 ah 01:43:05 oerjan: so what, did you come back in that ~2000 resurgence or something? i'm not actually sure how long the agoranomic.org lists go back 01:43:15 but the registrar just notes you as leaving in 95... or was it 97 01:43:21 sometime like that yes 01:43:31 oh? 01:43:39 well, you might be listed again later 01:43:44 it lists you as disappearing, iirc 01:43:45 i definitely returned somewhere around 2000 01:43:47 as opposed to actually leaving in a huff 01:43:58 or leaving because of Responsibilities(TM) 01:44:36 Left in 1996: 01:44:36 Oerjan 3 Jan 96 01:44:38 ok, no reason given 01:44:47 then 01:44:48 Left in 2000: 01:44:48 Oerjan (Zombie 20 Sep 99 - 25 Dec 99) Apr 96 22 Mar 00 01:44:58 oh, and before all that 01:44:58 Oerjan Sep 95 Dec 95 01:45:07 and 01:45:07 a Oerjan oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no 15 Jul 00 14 Nov 04 01:45:10 (abandoned) 01:45:16 and that's it 01:45:20 yeah that would be the last time 01:45:33 doesn't say when you abandoned iit 01:45:37 presumably nearer 2000 than 2004 01:45:46 *it 01:45:50 huh? 01:46:25 that unknown should be some time in autumn 93 01:46:28 well, the other leavings are three months, less than one year and 3 years 01:46:30 :P 01:46:40 all of them are unknown apart from the a 01:46:47 i guess we didn't record them in 93 01:47:02 (leavings = how long you stayed before leaving) 01:47:12 although the 3 years is actually 3 months 01:47:19 due to zombieness 01:47:31 oh awit 01:47:32 wait 01:47:46 right 01:48:00 oerjan: so in conclusion, apart from the 2000-2004, you played the gamme for three months, less than one year and 3 months 01:48:06 unless the former means inactivated 01:48:12 and the latter is deregistrated 01:48:14 deregistered 01:48:19 because the times are quite short 01:48:22 -!- madbrain has joined. 01:48:22 i don't know 01:48:27 that format is oooooooold 01:48:31 huh? 01:48:38 and without labelling of the columns 01:48:41 oerjan: huh what 01:48:44 yay wrote an interpreter for my newest obfuscated language in Lua 01:48:53 i'm trying to decipher the report, and failing 01:48:54 ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar ) 01:49:10 we started recording registrations in 94 01:49:24 first deregistration 12 sep 94, and no others til 1995 01:49:27 where there's a lot 01:49:29 oh wait that unknown cannot be 93 of course, since there's another period before it 01:49:32 (the interpreter can run in http://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo ) 01:50:03 there's definitely a period earlier than 95 too, since i registered in 93 01:50:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:50:19 oerjan: basically what i'm saying is, yoyo is quite accurate, because you never stayed more than three months or so, at least in 95 or earlier 01:50:34 and the 2000-2004 thing I guessed didn't actually last that long, based on available statistics 01:50:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:51:11 Sgeo: that quotes file is really crap 01:51:26 ehird, the quotes, or something else? 01:51:30 yes. 01:52:12 Which? 01:52:19 The former. 01:52:25 oh 01:52:49 *shrug* 01:52:50 ehird: you are misreading the one with zombie in it 01:52:58 oerjan: oh, i see 01:52:59 true 01:53:01 ok, apart from that one 01:53:03 meh 01:53:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:53:19 oerjan: if you left in a huff in the non-abandoned ones, i theorise that you are like a long-term wooble. 01:53:28 well, long-term in the gaps between registrations, not so much in the staying. 01:53:34 also, more like goethe 01:53:35 i mean g. 01:53:35 whatevs 01:53:39 For some reason, the A22i assembler supports roman numerals 01:53:49 zzo38: Probably a GNU project. 01:55:26 i don't recall ever leaving in a huff :D 01:55:54 not that i recall very much clearly at all 01:56:07 However, this one isn't a GNU project. 01:56:17 oerjan: they had cantus cygnei and writ of fages back then yes? 01:56:26 (A22i is for assembling codes for ARM machines) 01:56:36 sure 01:56:38 (Specifically, the GBA/NDS) 01:56:45 oerjan: me/ais412 01:56:46 er 01:57:04 oerjan: me/ais523/comex scammed that based on the fact that writ of fages let you come back without waiting 30 days :) (but the scam failed in other ways) 01:57:04 ehird: the ones that ended around christmas may simply have been because my parents didn't have internet access at the time 01:57:23 oerjan: wouldn't that be abandoning? or would you have deregistered beforehand 01:57:28 so i tended to expire 01:57:36 i guess it would be abandoning 01:57:38 how can you expire multiple times 01:57:43 that doesn't even make no sense 01:57:45 er... 01:57:52 oerjan: abandoning = don't post for a long time 01:57:54 without deregistering 01:58:00 is expire a technical term? 01:58:03 then someone deregisters you 01:58:10 also, a human expiring generally means 01:58:11 you know 01:58:12 dying. 01:58:18 in fact by generally i mean always 01:58:21 and also, this may have been in the period before Hold 01:58:44 then it'd have just been deregistering after not posting 01:59:20 in fact i find the two ending in Dec 95 and Jan 96 suspicious, that there are two rather than just one 01:59:49 hm or wait 01:59:49 complain! oh wait you might have a seizure even typing that address :D 02:00:10 Jan 96 i went to the US 02:00:26 maybe it was a scam involving deregistering. 02:00:28 so it is conceivable i abandoned twice 02:00:32 heh 02:00:33 did they have the 30 day cooldown period thten? 02:00:35 *then 02:00:54 what is that 02:01:11 after deregistering, you can't register for 30 days 02:02:47 cannot remember if we ever had that 02:02:54 certainly not all the time 02:03:53 also, it is quite possible that i only deregistered properly once, may have been in 2002-2004 02:04:03 all the rest being abandons 02:04:32 they would say "a" then 02:04:38 oerjan: and the 2004 one is abandoning 02:04:41 so TOTALLY WRONG BITCH 02:04:59 i _thought_ i deregistered properly then 02:05:12 maybe it was the time before 02:05:13 What are you talking about anyway? 02:05:17 Agora 02:06:08 Which is? 02:06:22 It's tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules. 02:06:27 No, wait, it's http://agoranomic.org/. 02:06:54 (Unfortunately, we no longer have that coat of arms. Stupid modernists.) 02:07:13 Hmm, I've read a bit about nomic, sounds like fun 02:07:29 FireFly: Yes. The game sucks a bit now, unfortunately, rule-wise. 02:07:48 It's been going since before I was born (since 1993), so it'll probably straighten out shortly. 02:08:00 hm indeed i abandoned in 2004, i have kept the registrar's messages to that effect 02:08:15 Unless people actually like the current ruleset; polling seems to suggest no 02:08:23 oerjan: what, as a trophy? :P 02:08:37 :D 02:09:00 HA! Fuck you all! I won't even dignify you with a deregistration! 02:09:08 at that time i was only reading email about once a month, i think 02:09:15 at the library 02:10:40 It's been going since before I was born (since 1993) <-- that _is_ a bit awesome :D 02:10:48 Yeah. :P 02:11:01 16 this year... 02:11:10 (Uh, Agora that is, not me.) 02:12:00 Michael posted recently, iirc. 02:12:07 (As in, months ago. Maybe even laate last year.) 02:12:09 *late 02:12:28 It was supporting singular they over e, iirc, and it was a few posts 02:13:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:15:12 singular they? have they _no_ sense of tradition? 02:17:38 ehird: you should join the bobzooping contract 02:17:55 coppro: no, I don't want to support BobTHJ's site 02:18:06 oerjan: Shakespeare, dude 02:18:10 oerjan: it used to be like that, anyway 02:18:15 e shimmied in to replace they later on 02:18:20 ehird: no, it's a contract that allows zooping support of NoVs 02:18:22 the original ruleset uses "they" 02:18:33 oh. 02:18:38 especially those against Bob 02:18:42 coppro: hmm 02:18:44 what's it called 02:18:47 it 02:18:50 what 02:18:50 *it's not public yet 02:18:52 I linked it in here 02:18:53 ok 02:18:55 /msg me 02:20:17 interesting fact: http://www.stevey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50-years-exploration-huge.jpg, if scaled so that it is vertically 1200 pixels high, would cover roughly 1.41449296600234 1920x1200 displays horizontatlly 02:21:04 which is a shame, because it'd look amazing on 2 or 3 24" displays 02:22:09 there's also a whole in it 02:22:11 *hole 02:22:43 the picture? 02:22:45 where? 02:22:57 bottom right 02:23:06 some of the lines are cut off for the Pioneers/Voyagers 02:23:17 they resume on the other side of the box 02:23:20 those are separate missions or something it hink 02:23:28 whatever 02:23:33 ah, you're right 02:23:51 not a big deal 02:23:57 whatever, if I had two or three monitors (I guess I'll want them when I have the bigger room, bigger desk) i'd ask for a non-blanked vevrsion 02:23:59 *version 02:24:10 i love how the bits around earth are so psychedelic 02:24:12 -looking 02:24:18 well 70s psychedelia sort of thing 02:24:23 coppro: also, it's a jpg 02:24:32 but I'm sure something with so much effort put into it has a master copy. 02:24:49 "This is an image from a special edition national geographic magazine." 02:24:52 november 2008 02:25:02 coppro: so I just need a high-quality scanner 02:25:30 coppro: boxes explained 02:25:30 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HRnKzjq-c5g/SW2tmiRqzVI/AAAAAAAAAUY/UpAVj64ybfI/s1600/Space.jpg 02:25:36 the boring explanatory text was omitted 02:25:50 well, box 02:26:02 the damage was repaired in other areas 02:26:05 see e.g. the bottom ones 02:26:09 but not that one, presumably a mistake 02:27:22 the bottom gradient isn't cut off by the text 02:28:19 coppro: yes, the damage was patched up there, prersumably 02:28:21 *presumably 02:28:30 but not the other one 02:28:37 you missed my point 02:28:51 but w/e, it's not important 02:28:59 what about the contract? 02:29:31 hmm 02:31:15 Ooh, that's a pretty picture. It doesn't really fit the aspect ratio of my desktop either, though. (3861x1706 vs. approximately 4544x1200.) 02:32:06 (And I never have that desktop visible.) 02:33:43 fizzie: I resized it to (something)x1050 and then cropped all the right side off 02:34:04 I hate how black backgroundd obscure shadows on them 02:34:07 *backgrounds 02:34:18 When shadows poke out other places, it looks weirdly inconsistent 02:34:24 Also, it's quite busy to be a background. 02:34:37 Also, the sun makes my apple logo bronze. 02:35:29 Happily, though, there's no white-line-at-the-bottom in my cropped version. 02:35:33 As in, at the right side. 02:35:44 Having that at the very edge would look awkward. 02:36:50 "It's from a National Geographic article, here as a draggable tile map; 02:36:50 http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/index 02:36:50 Here's the format of the individual tiles, 02:36:50 http://books.nationalgeographic.com/.../TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg 02:36:51 And an XML of the details, 02:36:51 http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/map/.../ImageProperties.xml 02:36:52 If anyone cares to piece it together." 02:37:01 I am gawbsmacked. 02:37:10 Quick, slave — I mean fizzie —! 02:37:32 http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/2008/10/solar_system/TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg Uurgh, the compression artefacts. 02:38:36 "I Don't Code in my Free Time - Ted Dziuba" 02:38:37 Oh 02:38:44 *Oh, so THAT'S why he's an idiot and a douchebag! 02:39:07 "There was only once when I actually enjoyed it, though. I was in college, and shared a common wall with a girl from Spain who was painfully unaware that her computer had a volume control knob. She would stay up late on AOL instant messenger, and I couldn't sleep. So, I rigged up a Python script to play AOL instant messenger sounds randomly every 5 to 10 seconds," 02:39:16 TALKING TO PEOPLE: RATED IMPOSSIBLE 02:50:55 Is this guy complaining about the NAME of Twisted? 02:57:12 { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }. 02:59:33 * oerjan notices the line between assembly and internet slang getting thinner there 02:59:48 O, ya... 03:01:32 Do you have a complete proper URL of the ImageProperties.xml? 03:02:23 fixed point functions are scary 03:03:48 madbrain: y! 03:04:01 * oerjan cackles evilly 03:04:55 actually I dunno if what I'm playing with are fixed point functions but as far as I can tell they are 03:05:41 Hrm; I've actually been combining tile-maps quite a lot, but I can't really be bothered with this particular one. It's 05am here already, so g'night and such. 03:06:54 madbrain: Do you ever use the #libregamewiki channel on freenode? (I have never even heard of it until now, actually, but anyways...) 03:07:12 nope 03:07:42 O. Well, are you on that wiki? 03:07:49 nope 03:08:04 O. 03:08:58 A IRC WHOIS command and a Google search brought me to http://libregamewiki.org/List_of_developers so I was a bit curious about that 03:10:07 strange, it does have my name for some reason, probably compiled from some idie game 03:10:29 no idea which one 03:11:05 aha, probably from my brother's pygame game 03:11:15 Now there's a sufficiently unusual name that you can probably google it without any ambiguity. 03:11:31 I searched for "Hubert Lamontagne" 03:11:49 Gregor: i'm not sure it's that unusual in french? 03:12:16 gregor: well, I do have an unusual first name yes, although I'm not the only one named hubert lamontagne amazingly 03:12:18 Is Hubert a French name? 03:12:24 yeah 03:12:46 Huh. Doesn't scream "French" to me. Not that I know names. 03:12:59 like the hubert lamontagne on facebook? (1st hit) not me 03:13:14 There are several Gregor Richards' on Facebook. 03:13:24 Although there's only one on google. 03:14:34 Oh god no D-8 03:14:45 There's an association between me and the company I worked for that shall not be named :( 03:14:56 MWAHAHAHA 03:16:11 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/ There's also an astoundingly terrible picture of me giving a presentation :P 03:16:38 don't worry, in a few years _everyone_ will have something embarassing about on the web and so it won't matter any more >:) 03:17:05 Neither are that embarrassing. 03:17:09 I just hated that company a lot. 03:17:15 in fact this will be so ubiquitous that people who don't have it will be strongly mistrusted as having something to hide 03:19:04 "What, there are no nude pictures of you on the internet?" Do you have some ugly scar or something?" 03:19:34 There are no nude pictures of me on the webernets :P 03:20:09 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548571/ Oh look, there's a slightly-less-terrible picture of me giving the same talk. Also my advisor. 03:21:02 Whoa, people talked! 03:21:27 Gregor: well me neither, but just you wait a few years! 03:22:44 * oerjan hadn't quite got the idea the Gregor wore hats _indoors_ 03:22:46 Gregor: your clothing = awesome 03:22:52 oerjan: *hi5* 03:23:16 I wear hats (and also shirts and ties) in all social situations. 03:23:29 Also underwear, etc. 03:23:31 i shall now find some mind bleach to remove that tie. 03:23:40 Is it pink and green? I think so. 03:23:50 Gregor: do any of your hats ever fall off 03:24:04 The tie is just pink. 03:24:21 It has a pattern, but the pattern is pink and pink. 03:24:29 And no, my hats never fall off. I have hats that fit. 03:24:46 none of them 03:24:47 EVER 03:24:56 wait, social situations, does that include sex? 03:24:59 hey oerjan 03:25:02 share some of dat mind bleach 03:25:02 Unless my memory fails me, no hat has ever fallen off my head. 03:25:04 ehird: Yes. 03:25:07 OERJAN 03:25:08 QUICK 03:25:12 :P 03:25:45 i'm afraid i'm all out 03:25:48 ;_; 03:25:50 oerjan: http://codu.org/hats/PinkPaisleyFedora-med.jpg 03:25:55 Gregor: "That shall not be named"? 03:25:56 I'll ccheck the blackm arket 03:25:56 03:25:59 *black market 03:26:00 ... Intel? 03:26:00 *check 03:26:02 pikhq: I betit's 03:26:03 *bet it's 03:26:04 dammit 03:26:04 pikhq: I wurrrrve Intel. 03:26:05 beat me to it 03:26:08 pikhq: I was quite happy to work at Intel. 03:26:14 It's a different company. 03:26:18 Initech 03:26:22 Okay, so a company that merits hating. 03:26:35 You almost certainly haven't heard of it. 03:26:53 Initech! 03:30:51 Likely. 03:31:13 Gregor: Is it Plof Enterprises, who you stole Plof from 03:31:20 YOU HAVEN'T DENIED IT 03:31:21 Must be true 03:31:35 Damn, I'm not fast enough at denying things. 03:32:04 we shall have to register didgregorrichardsstealploffromplofenterprises.com now 03:34:34 isgregorrichardssecretlyglennbeck.com 03:35:09 didgregorrichardsrapeandmurderglennbeckin1990.com 03:35:18 didayounggirlrapeandmurdergregorrichardsin1990.com 03:35:35 Pretty sure you're GAY enough for it to happen. Wearing pink ties and all. 03:35:44 And pink hats. 03:35:46 And pink shirts. 03:35:53 And big pink triangles :P 03:36:02 You're basically dead. 03:36:07 EVEN NOW, AS A ZOMBIE 03:36:14 Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains. 03:36:26 Why does XChat think I hit /clear in this channel? 03:37:00 Because you accidentally yourself at night. 03:37:08 I don't know how XChat works, maybe read the document first 03:37:20 Maybe you accidentally slipped and pushed the wrong key 03:39:02 DEF INC [P ADD %1 C1] OW [P MOV %1 %1 #1]. 03:39:39 I read P...OW as POW 03:39:47 Also, nested asm? 03:39:50 What.Is.The.World.Coming.To 03:40:55 I don't know what is the world coming to? 03:41:12 nested asm 03:41:26 Yo dawg,e tc. 03:41:26 *, etc. 03:41:31 I HATE THIS KEYBOARD 03:41:34 Do you understand what this code even means? Or, the other code from before? Let's see? 03:41:39 What keyboard are you using? 03:42:01 I could make a good guess at what it's doing. And a Cherry scissor-switch (like on laptops) one. "Stream XT". 03:42:26 O. OK, that's what keyboard. 03:42:59 Going to replace it with either an FKBN87MC/NPEK or an FKBN87M/EB, both of which have among their features inscrutable names and extreme priceyness, and among the former's features is being out of stock. 03:43:13 O! 03:43:20 O! 03:43:21 But not until I get the new desk, which is not until we move, so yeah. Stuck with this thing. 03:43:25 O! 03:44:08 Now let's see if you can try to figure out these asm codes, even just by guessing 03:44:32 I do have a document about it, but first try to figure out without document. OK 03:44:43 [P ...] means "put ... before this instruction, and replace this P thingy with the contents of %1, which you will replace with a free register". 03:45:24 Right? 03:45:35 No. 03:45:44 :-( 03:45:52 Well, let me figure out the rest first. 03:46:05 ADD X Y is X=X+Y. 03:46:05 I can tell you a hint, this line is a macro definition. 03:46:11 Yes. 03:46:30 MOV X Y Z is... um, MOV instructions usually only have two arguments. 03:46:35 Hmm. 03:46:44 Maybe #1 isn't a main argument. 03:46:47 Or an argument at all. 03:47:36 #1 is an immediate argument, maybe you can try to figure it out by the context. 03:47:55 Well, okay, INC is clearly a macro to increment something, so %1 must be the number 1. 03:48:05 No. %1 is not the number 1 03:48:06 Oh. 03:48:08 C1 is the number 1. 03:48:12 %1 is the first macro argument. 03:48:15 INC x becomes INC x C1 03:48:20 Yes. C1 is the number 1 and %1 is the first macro argument, that is correct. 03:48:32 "OW"... hmm 03:48:54 It's not a two-argument case, and inc is done by the ADD %1 C1 instruction... so it's not part of the actual macro expansion... 03:49:58 zzo38: Correct? 03:50:04 Hint: Not all machine codes are possible... 03:50:17 ehird: You are sort of correct 03:50:24 o_O. So... if you cannot expand to ADD %1 C1, 03:50:32 expand to MOV {first arg} {first arg} #1 03:50:32 As in, the macro expansion will never contain "OW" 03:50:47 So then I guess I have to figure out how MOV works. 03:50:48 Can you figure out what "OW" stands for? 03:50:53 in Other Words? 03:51:00 Almost. 03:51:00 otherwise? 03:51:02 Yes. 03:51:07 zzo38: MOV X Y Z = X = Y+Z 03:51:11 Yes. 03:51:16 MOV is an odd name for that; I'd call it ADDTO 03:51:25 zzo38: Or is it an artefact of the long instructions 03:51:31 i.e., you can add that to any instruction 03:51:35 and it's taking advance of MOV being X=Y 03:51:38 It has to do with how immediate values are added on to instructions. 03:51:42 Right 03:51:43 Clever 03:51:48 Why would ADD %1 C1 ever be inexpressable? 03:52:27 Because C1 is a special register. %1 might not be a valid special register in all cases. (Some registers are valid both as normal and special) 03:52:44 Either both registers have to be special or neither. 03:53:10 C1 *is* an odd name for it; when I thought of "constant", I thought pointer-to-1. 03:53:14 Does C34567 work? 03:53:17 Now let's see if you can figure out this other code: { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }. 03:53:22 Or are there only a few? 03:53:28 No, C34567 doesn't work. Only C0 and C1 are available. 03:53:34 zzo38: Zombies are a HOAX> 03:53:36 *HOAX. 03:53:37 (ahahahaha) 03:53:50 .........GTK+ actually has its own programming language? 03:53:55 Sgeo: No. 03:54:03 http://live.gnome.org/Vala 03:54:10 First of all, that's a GObject programming language. 03:54:14 Not GTK+. 03:54:18 Second of all, Vala is unofficial. 03:54:25 It is, however, nice. 03:54:39 Well, it IS official. 03:54:46 But no official GNOME applications uses it, as far as I know. 03:55:39 (At first, C34567 reminded me a bit of mahjong hands) 03:55:41 Huh. Qt is finally freely available to proprietary programs? 03:55:46 * Sgeo is reading wikivs.com 03:55:54 Sgeo: Yes. 03:56:06 WikiVS is a bunch of crap./ 03:56:08 *crap. 03:56:27 (Heh; "Laser Mouse vs Optical Mouse" — WHY is this even a page? Laser mice are an objective improvement on optical mice.) 03:57:05 "Qt looks more native than GTK+ on Windows and Mac platforms. This is because Qt tries to use native widgets whenever possible. Even so, neither Qt nor GTK+ will look and feel completely native on Windows or Mac." 03:57:13 Sgeo: these pages are written by idiotic non-experts 03:57:23 ehird: Did you figure out this code? It has nothing with Zombies! (I think...) 03:57:30 They clearly haven't done the meagre research required, for instance, to realise that GTK+ is horrifically non-native on OS X. 03:57:39 zzo38: "WAA RAA. BRNZ" -> "Waa raa! Brains." 03:57:48 So I made a HOAX pun. 03:58:05 ehird, technically, what was written (that you quotes) is true 03:58:07 zzo38: Are the {...} meaningful? 03:58:11 Ya, it is just a pun a joke. But that is not anything about the purpose of the code. 03:58:15 Sgeo: That is false. 03:58:16 The { } are meaningful 03:58:20 GTK looks perfectly native on Windows. 03:58:32 Oh 03:58:42 Sgeo: Anyway, it may be *technically* true, but it's misleading. 03:58:58 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:59:12 -!- ehird has joined. 03:59:57 I put random page on wiki VS and found "Copyfree vs Copyleft" the first time. 04:00:16 Copyfree isn't even a word! 04:00:23 (But GPL sux. :P) 04:00:43 "Coca-Cola is the original cola, while there isn't a huge difference in taste, Pepsi mirrored their cola after Coke's, being just different enough in taste to not actually be the same drink." 04:00:51 Are you serious, Pepsi tastes nothing like Coca-Cola 04:00:53 I happen to like GPL however. 04:01:18 If you don't like GPL, you don't have to use it for your programs 04:01:46 zzo38: Yes, but I have to deal with the effects of other people using GPL without in-depth reasoning on it, which I think would result in a lot fewer GPL libraries and programs. 04:01:53 *using the GPL 04:02:03 Anyway, opposing it can lead to less people using it, so nothing wrong with that. 04:02:24 * Sgeo sees how GPL libraries are bad, but GPL programs? 04:02:56 Modifying them. 04:03:03 Generally I avoid doing so. 04:04:05 You know what I wurve more than distro wars? License wars! 04:04:21 Nobody should express any opinions! Rabble rabble! 04:05:03 YES! Opinions are evil! 04:05:22 Especially wrong ones! 04:05:27 People with strong opinions should die! 04:05:35 No right ones are even worse! 04:08:13 I do even maintain a fork of a GPL project. I don't have a problem to modify it. 04:08:42 And there is another bonus in this specific case, that the software even works, too. 04:18:01 But please, try the code more better this time, without Zombies, try to figure out if you can make any better guess as to what the letters and punctuations stand for, and stuff. 04:22:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:31:46 Well that problem solved itself 04:34:00 O_o 04:35:29 oerjan: why O_o 04:36:59 it looked like you were dissing zzo there 04:37:17 no, see the line immediately before 04:37:26 said while I was away 04:38:21 whatever 04:38:59 oerjan is PMSing! wait, no. 04:39:31 actually i'm in a good mood lately 04:39:44 a very whatever mood 04:40:07 whatever >:D 04:42:09 wuteva lol 04:42:11 like wuteva 04:42:41 wuteva sounds polish 04:43:01 wuteva polish may do, polish it, or i'll polish it for you 04:43:07 -eof random.txt- 04:43:12 OH KAY 04:43:22 ALSO: Could this poem be about penises? EXPERTS ARE UNDECIDED. 04:43:46 the experts are still busy testing the theory 04:44:18 yes. with their penises, you see. 04:45:12 ehird, is http://linuxcommand.gds.tuwien.ac.at/learning_the_shell.php a good tutorial? (Not for me, for someone on normish) 04:46:11 The introduction is not objectionable. Normish is jury-rigged quite hackishly, in my opinion, so it probably isn't the best place to learn command line stuff. 04:46:12 But sure. 04:47:03 argh 04:47:14 brainfuck is so hard to interpret o_@ 04:47:19 .......... 04:47:20 No. 04:47:21 No it is not. 04:47:32 ... 04:47:34 madbrain: gtfo 04:47:50 well, it is not when you're not using a functional language from vulcan :D 04:47:53 Well, if madbrain means "at a glance" 04:48:02 madbrain: it is not hard even then. 04:48:06 Sgeo: he is still wrong. 04:50:22 Like, this is my increment operator: 04:50:39 (&(&<,&$<>,&(>,)(<,)>>,&<>,$$<>,&(>,)<,&<,>>,),$<,,) 04:50:59 OK, that is quite hard. 04:51:05 But that just means that language is hard, not BF. :P 04:51:07 There's probably a syntax error in there somewhere so it'll probably never work 04:52:21 I'm doing stuff like extending integers with an infinite series of 1s and 0s so that it doesn't go into an infinite loop if you overflow 04:53:56 is this that single variable functional language? 04:54:20 yeah 04:54:55 * Sgeo still hasn't proven to himself or anyone else that he can interpret loops 04:54:59 it took me 2 tries to write a program that repeats the input but terminates on 0 byte 04:57:50 A task that you can do like this is brainfuck: ,[.,] 04:58:06 wut 04:59:42 ,[.,] in brainfuck will repeat the input characters until you give it a 0 byte 05:12:22 woot, brainfuck operators are regrouped in an easy binary way 05:24:46 everyone knows what ,[.,] will do 05:24:57 also, untrue; in the most common variant, an EOF translates into 0 05:31:21 LAP-TOP: smaller and lighter than the average secretary 05:31:21 PORTABLE: smaller and lighter than the average refrigerator 05:31:22 TRANSPORTABLE: neither chained to a wall nor attached to an alarm 05:31:22 system 05:31:22 — http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tasteless.jokes/msg/fc80e8216bf3babe?dmode=source&pli=1 05:31:57 COPY-PROTECTED: (1) a clever method of preventing incompetent 05:31:57 pirates from STEALING software and legitimate customers from 05:31:58 USING it. (2) a means of distinguishing honest users from 05:31:58 thieves by preventing larceny by the former but not the latter. 05:32:02 you know, this is from 1994. 05:32:10 WINDOWS: a method of dividing a computer screen into two or more 05:32:10 unusably tiny portions 05:32:12 Tee hee. 05:32:19 Sometimes spot on, sometimes spot... off. 05:55:13 "Deletion Options 05:55:17 ( ) Do Not Delete Message 05:55:22 (X) Delete Message" 05:55:30 after clicking "Delete" in V-Bulletin 05:55:35 *vBulletin 06:04:20 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=average+size 06:04:33 Average size = The mean of all countries population = 6.68 billion people. 06:04:48 Wait, what? Protip: It takes account for every human who has ever lived. 06:04:56 I think. 06:04:58 No wait, it doesn't. 06:05:02 Aw, it's far more boring. 06:05:12 "Mean of total people living 2006-2009", basically. 06:05:17 But that's average size, if you ask W|A. 06:25:22 morbing 06:31:39 http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/killers.html 06:31:41 oh man! 06:31:50 i hope it embeds quicktime instead of opens it 06:31:57 oklopol: mbrogning 06:33:10 about the scramble thing, i left out a very important thing: there are just two characters, a and b, and i realized my solution from last night doesn't work :P 06:33:45 [NEW] Use HTML5