< 1256170156 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256172242 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird which monitor is less bad: < 1256172245 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317 < 1256172249 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824113019 < 1256172286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How good are your eyes? < 1256172294 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1256172300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple question. < 1256172317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's not quite that bad. < 1256172341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: If you're a huge pixel junkie, go for the former. It has more pixels, you see. The latter is bigger and 16:10. < 1256172350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:10 beats 16:9 at that kind of size. < 1256172362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bezel on that Gateway sure does look ugly, though. < 1256172379 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that matters < 1256172387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: The Samsung's dpi is 102.16, so some text could be quite smalll without fucking with system settings. < 1256172402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it really is horrifically ugly. < 1256172414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*small < 1256172432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=24-113-019-S02&ISList=24-113-019-S01%2c24-113-019-S02%2c24-113-019-S03%2c24-113-019-S04%2c24-113-019-S05%2c24-113-019-S06%2c24-113-019-S07%2c24-113-019-S08&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16824113019&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=Gateway%20FHD2401%20Black%2024%22%205ms%20HDMI%20Widescreen%20LCD%20Monitor oh god, my eyes < 1256172435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go with the Samsung! :-P < 1256172452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, ehh, apart from the obvious aspect ratio and resolutions, they're equally shitty. < 1256172476 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1256172489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah! Codswallop! < 1256172593 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think everything suck < 1256172593 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1256172622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Untrue! But there's a reason those displays cost 200 bucks. < 1256172722 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058 < 1256172726 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheaper < 1256172767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tinyurl.com/55abze < 1256172768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheaper < 1256172779 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retard < 1256172799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why you ask me for opinions when you just call me a retard and say I think everything sucks. < 1256172826 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what is a good monitor then? < 1256172838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too expensive, that's what :( < 1256172853 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1256172868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: But, uhh, the higher the response time, the less likely that company just panders to idiots who go for "ooh, faster". < 1256172877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, it also finds sucky displays that are just made badly and suck. < 1256172893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at the 1920x1200 ones, I'd say < 1256172905 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i have been doing < 1256172940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the top-rated 1920x1200 is a pricey IPS < 1256172955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That 25.5 ASUS is lame, really crappy pixel density < 1256172981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824196020 Get this... and you'll be... in the hood < 1256172985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I crack myself up < 1256173023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: But seriously, most cheap displays are exactly the same, so just get the cheapest one with a reasonable size/resolution (24" 1920x1200 is a good bet) and a high rating < 1256173030 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think 25.5 is too big for 1920*1200? < 1256173039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1256173043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24" is already 94 ppi < 1256173051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(96 being the "canonical" ppi) < 1256173073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: As an alternative, if you really don't care, get the most pixels you can and fuck the rest. < 1256173075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably won't notice. < 1256173110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, that Samsung you linked is probably your best bet if you don't mind squinting for some text. < 1256173121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's just 102 PPI, which isn't really all that bad. < 1256173154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have good eyesight, it'll be fine, and you get 2359296 pixels. < 1256173155 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should learn how to use screen
< 1256173166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screen is lame. < 1256173200 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is typing python Sucket.py >~/sucket.out 2>~/sucket.err & < 1256173226 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so first you say go 1920*1200, then recommend 2048*1152? < 1256173233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's totally unrelated to screen < 1256173242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: As in, "if you really don't care about the quality" < 1256173247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, screen would let me run Sucket in its own um, thingy < 1256173250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just leave it there < 1256173256 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without redirecting stuff < 1256173261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, if you're looking at $2xx displays, you don't, so just go all out and get the most pixels you can < 1256173270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's called opening a new terminal or tab < 1256173278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screen is just a lousy terminal tabbing system < 1256173285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pain to use and over-complicated < 1256173289 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm intending to leave this open even after I turn off my computer < 1256173290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus it lets you suspend a session, that's cool I gueuss < 1256173295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's the only thing < 1256173297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Err, how? < 1256173304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your computer can't run things while it's off. < 1256173305 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it's running on normish < 1256173323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/shrug < 1256173409 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1256173461 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058 < 1256173467 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cheap and seems to have good reviews < 1256173488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has no reviews. < 1256173492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not on newegg, at least. < 1256173498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a single rating. < 1256173508 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on other sites < 1256173514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now understands screen well enough to use it
< 1256173520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, just get it. You won't be disappointed. < 1256173550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have another display with different colour characteristics and look at any sort of coloured image... But seriously, people don't care. < 1256173916 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even know if the monitor i have now is crappy or not < 1256173938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: how much did it cost? < 1256173944 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1256173952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big is it, who made it, what resolution < 1256173989 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's 19", 1280*1024, made by princeton < 1256174024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never heard of Princeton. Googling just gives some amazon and review sites and forums and stuff. < 1256174040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly some cost-cutting budget manufacturer with no presence. < 1256174060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I can't even find a company site or anything. < 1256174070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly really crap. < 1256174120 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www99.shopping.com/xPF-LCD1910 < 1256174124 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the one < 1256174181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9—16.9 ms (!!) response time, company has no presence, tiny, uses a whopping 55 W... < 1256174188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crapp. < 1256174189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Crap. < 1256174202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The response time would be fine if it was IPS, but it clearly isn't. So it's just shoddy engineering.) < 1256174246 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok fuck it < 1256174252 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058 < 1256174255 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm buying that one < 1256174270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't handle the extra pixels eh?!?!?!? :P < 1256175736 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1256175740 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new monitor in 3 days < 1256175755 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, it's wednesday < 1256175762 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means 6 days < 1256175888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh noes < 1256176718 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's ways to boost response time of LCD display, but those tend to result their own issues... < 1256176734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See all the 2 ms displays, catering to idiotic gamers. < 1256176740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a load of crap. < 1256176846 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then one gets effects like reverse ghosting... < 1256176928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yum yum yum. < 1256178068 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW: Anybody written brainhype program that prints 'Y' if Goldbach conjecture is true, 'N' otherwise? :-> < 1256178235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be trivial, no? < 1256178264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[This language is "super-Turing-complete" because it solves the halting problem for Turing machines.]] < 1256178266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is false. < 1256178274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainhype solves the halting problem for Brainhype. < 1256178279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it solves the halting problem for a super-Turing machine... < 1256178283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is even harder! < 1256178825 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, making string extender where the program would be unrestricted grammar would give something super-turing (AFAIK, complement of context-free grammar already gives turing-complete result)... < 1256179022 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computational class for that is upper-bounded by RE^RE. < 1256179623 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't think writing the program in brainhype would be trivial. You need stuff like primality testing... < 1256180810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1256180915 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of your nicks are the same length and the same color < 1256180923 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this conversation is impossible to follow < 1256180933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom is the same length and colour. < 1256180944 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your face < 1256180953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché < 1256181046 0 :Oranjer!n=Owner@adsl-243-217-96.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256181059 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1256181071 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is going on here? < 1256181077 0 :_0x44!n=_0x44@adsl-99-40-231-181.dsl.stl2mo.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256181097 0 :_0x44!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1256181134 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwww _0x44!! < 1256181140 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here? < 1256181169 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone sentient and autonomous enough to comprehend the meanings behind these words? < 1256181201 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sits and watches
< 1256181217 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is < 1256181218 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: why aren't they in the mood for a lisp not to be particularly condusive to stacks. < 1256181236 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256181261 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what you just said does not nearly begin to prove your sentience < 1256181262 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: i figure that this *is* an unstable version of chicken? < 1256181273 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1256181273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: meet Markov < 1256181278 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, Markov < 1256181286 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a Markov chain? < 1256181286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: fungot is Markov, right? < 1256181287 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: control is at one level of indentation. it just happens to be extraordinary like few things are vague, but it's < 1256181293 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256181298 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is fungot a bot? < 1256181299 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: it is a good way too much < 1256181304 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it is < 1256181314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're quick < 1256181316 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't he, fungot? < 1256181317 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the local of the same original code. ( " the wrong way < 1256181357 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot doesn't seem very coherent < 1256181359 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: but was walk-lisp properly tail-recursive? ( else i will tell em... :-p something... < 1256181383 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, parantheses require a closing ) to be grammatically correct where I come from < 1256181384 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: which is quite irrelevant if the rest are possible optimizations to be done < 1256181391 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gods, he's right < 1256181491 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, listen to me < 1256181492 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: that was mean, stop doing homework problems.' < 1256181504 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, fungot can also predict the future < 1256181505 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: unicode defines " case folding" which is fine but how could i have to be a < 1256181512 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a what, fungot? < 1256181520 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256181524 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1256181531 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGOT < 1256181538 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I just feel ridiculous < 1256181543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: It ignores you after a time so that WE DON'T GET PEOPLE SPAMMING THE CRAP OUT OF THE BOTS! < 1256181545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. Hi. < 1256181555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm your friendly channel asshole. < 1256181555 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird < 1256181560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, scratch the friendly. < 1256181579 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a lonely man in a lonely world in a lonely channel in a lonely state of mind < 1256181583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: fungot is written in befunge < 1256181583 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well i read examples in r5rs... inside a syntax form, so wherever you have a point there < 1256181583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt < 1256181584 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: c also provides a modest degree of portability, its return should be opaque objects, rather than having a fnord assembler compiler... < 1256181587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that might be an old version < 1256181594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to assume you're here for the languagees < 1256181598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*languages; I hate this keyboard < 1256181616 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep? ha! < 1256181626 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what languages do you mean, though? < 1256181634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric programming languages. Like Befunge. < 1256181639 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh! haha < 1256181641 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope! < 1256181647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We get a steady occasional trickle of esoterica people... < 1256181654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...aand like clockwork, you're another one. < 1256181661 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1256181674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless you're here for a mysterious third purpose. < 1256181684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A guy a while back came in here to talk about Russian music. < 1256181714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: You seem quite confused. < 1256181715 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, coppro recommended this channel because I wanted to talk about my attempts at creating a universal language akin to that conceptualized by Leibniz < 1256181731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with that one sentence I think you've proved you belong here. Hiiiiii. < 1256181743 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEYlo < 1256181753 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D /me has finally done something good in this channel < 1256181766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're crazy, we're http://esolangs.org/, we're oklo. < 1256181771 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256181772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(We fight crime?) < 1256181783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny, I was thinking the same thing < 1256181785 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone either fights it or does it < 1256181793 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is oklopol like INTERPOL but with less INTER and more oklo? < 1256181803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is oklopol < 1256181805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also glio < 1256181809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just heresy < 1256181811 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can one use oklo- as an affix? < 1256181817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okloy. < 1256181822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*okloy < 1256181826 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I have actually heard of esoteric languages before < 1256181827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The capitalisation is part of the spelling!) < 1256181831 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck and all that < 1256181842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the canonical one. < 1256181856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256181857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck pales in comparison to some of the things developed in here < 1256181862 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few that weren't < 1256181870 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard that said before, coppro < 1256181900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE .1 <- #4235~#&2098 DON'T wait, what? < 1256181907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Feather will be classed as a Schedule I drug upon its release and wide dissemination < 1256181915 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it addictive? < 1256181927 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it mind altering? < 1256181933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 can't seem to stop trying to import it from Hilbert-space to this world. < 1256181937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very yes. < 1256181961 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hilbert-space? is that a meta, a mesa, an alter, or an inter space? < 1256181990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw someone use Hilbert-space to denote the platonic realm of information and ideas, and it's rather more concise, plus the name is cute. < 1256181992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I adopted it. < 1256181996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256182008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't make sense, but it sounds nice. < 1256182014 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use ideosphere or memosphere or psychosphere myself < 1256182044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the fact that you use a term for it at all further cements your belonging in here... < 1256182051 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1256182071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come to think of it, once Feather is fully formed, it'll probably have always existed. < 1256182089 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn self-supporting existences < 1256182089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, a retroactive paradox in Feather caused the Big Bang... < 1256182111 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1256182111 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Feather? < 1256182116 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, Pthing < 1256182116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: NO NO NO < 1256182119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DID NOT WANT TO ASK THAT QUESTION < 1256182121 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am suddenly curious about what Plato called Platonica < 1256182123 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhhhhhhhh < 1256182123 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out < 1256182125 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But the true earth is pure (katharan) and situated in the pure heaven (en katharōi ouranōi) ... and it is the heaven which is commonly spoken by us as the ether (aithera) ... for if any man could arrive at the extreme limit ... he would acknowledge that this other world was the place of the true heaven (ho alethōs ouranos) and the true light (to alethinon phōs) and the true earth (hē hōs alēthōs gē). < 1256182125 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256182129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RUN AWAY! < 1256182129 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHIT < 1256182130 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHIT < 1256182132 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHIT < 1256182139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While you still have the last vestiges of the remnants of your sanity < 1256182140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION works around unicode strangeness by going directly into the database and removing a problematic line
< 1256182141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sanity! < 1256182155 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sanity? I know not what you speaketh ofeth < 1256182157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May the gods of forgive me < 1256182191 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would appear we have a choice of "pure heaven" or "the aether" < 1256182207 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not know he placed the Forms in the aether < 1256182214 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it makes sense < 1256182214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: To grossly misrepresent it to a degree that borders on being a lie, and insult ais523 by painting it as more simple than it is, < 1256182257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256182260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: It basically involves programs modifying the Feather interpreter (itself written in Feather). This interpreter is then used to retroactively run all of the program from the start, so that the change "always was", in a sense. Except it also changes the interpreter used to interpret the interpreter that interpreted the program, and so on to infinite depth. < 1256182281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: You change the interpreter, which causes an infinite chain of retroactive reinterpretations of the interpreter, and then finally of the program. < 1256182310 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it cannot actually go through time, correct? < 1256182343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Surprisingly no! < 1256182346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, it's shocking. < 1256182365 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, doubtful--even Hofstadter could not escape time < 1256182381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It basically forgets all it did and removes any output it made. The hard part is escaping the necessity of interpreting the interpreter infinite times... < 1256182407 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amnesia is not time travel < 1256182417 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Halting Problem! < 1256182430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) That's not what I said. < 1256182441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) Do attempt to explain how the halting problem is related. < 1256182450 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256182452 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256182472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 has a faint grasp on how to actually specify the language and is looking into working into an interpreter (well, was; he's stopped for now, I think), so... < 1256182514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty confident it's implementable on a Turing machine. < 1256182526 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256182530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a UTM or a regular one? < 1256182531 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what isn;t? < 1256182535 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*' < 1256182538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: UTM, obviously. < 1256182550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Super-turing languages, such as those that can solve the halting problem. < 1256182570 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256182572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(These are probably impossible to implement in physics...) < 1256182579 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt their existence < 1256182590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, obviously the halting problem is not solvable at all, as it's a non-concept. < 1256182597 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256182599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Super-turing languages definitely exist. < 1256182614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are probably not possible to implement in our universe, though. < 1256182617 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still doubt their existence, regardless of your anecdotal support < 1256182625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for all intents and purposes, they are impossible to implement. < 1256182627 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can they be modeled in this universe? < 1256182631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: They certainly exist, they're just not implementable. < 1256182638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1256182638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have been specified, a few on our wiki. < 1256182646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Almost certainly no, you mean. < 1256182651 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can they be modeled in this universe? < 1256182652 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes < 1256182655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows what the crazy quantum physicists will discover next. < 1256182661 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: as ehird says, almost certainly no < 1256182662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: No. < 1256182668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they can be specified in the abstract. < 1256182669 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256182674 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I repeat your previous correction < 1256182679 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's what I meant, ehird... < 1256182693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: So how can you doubt their existence? < 1256182716 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot, if they can be modeled, then they exist < 1256182724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rightyhothen < 1256182768 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a modal realist, by the way < 1256182778 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no bearing, just thought i should let y'all know < 1256182815 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1256182821 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did this all start with again? < 1256182854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being in this channel for long enough makes you give up on answering that question. < 1256182879 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256182900 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besardles, I intend to create a functionally universal language < 1256182905 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can y'all help? < 1256182909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modal realism strikes me as similar to solipsism: unfalsifiable, and hard to accept in practice < 1256182923 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1256182929 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hurt's more than you think < 1256182934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: no one helps in here. < 1256182937 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1256182942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Your abuse of the apostrophe hurts even more! < 1256182946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1256182960 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that happens is that ehird berates your attempts and other people make unhelpful suggestions < 1256182961 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's preposterous's < 1256182962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do note that I arrived at that opinion with a three-second skim of the Wikipedia article. < 1256182971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You're welcome! < 1256182974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tis okay < 1256182985 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet, somehow, you end up thinking this is a nice place to hang out < 1256182999 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256183001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least we're all articulate. < 1256183006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's very true. < 1256183009 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E-prime! < 1256183015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optimus Prime! < 1256183038 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! E-Prime! < 1256183058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optimus E-Prime! < 1256183064 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256183081 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, now I have to find an Optimus quote and write it in E-Prime < 1256183098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I was thinking. < 1256183104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*synergy* < 1256183123 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Synergetics, as per Buckminster Fuller? < 1256183234 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird? have I destroyed you? < 1256183243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1256183252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buckminster is awesome. < 1256183255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, was, I guess. < 1256183264 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256183272 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buckminster was awful < 1256183275 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am saddened that I could never meet him or Borges < 1256183288 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1256183293 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you ever actually try to read anything he wrote < 1256183294 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that bot know about buckminster? < 1256183301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing is a bot now? < 1256183302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1256183314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Why do you say that? < 1256183327 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I..thought...but all that jumbled nonsense after I asked "What's Feather?" < 1256183329 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he just rambles on and on making deep sounding gibberish < 1256183338 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean anything < 1256183343 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but what he says is useful < 1256183346 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1256183365 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I guess you're right--the best book on Synergetics was actually a book-wide review on Fuller's book < 1256183368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His inventions and concepts are inspired enough that I am inclined to give credence to his written work, even though I have not read it. < 1256183373 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't < 1256183384 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1256183399 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tis my favorite quote from a movie I never saw < 1256183407 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Idea is valid regardless of the Origin" < 1256183413 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ideas < 1256183422 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am also an Epistemological Anarchist) < 1256183439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dymaxion sleep schedule. Geodesic domes. Dymaxion house (eccentric, yes, but interesting). < 1256183449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*houses, I guess. < 1256183454 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Synergetics < 1256183464 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you see in synergetics exactly < 1256183477 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :building a mile-diameter floating geodesic dome by heating the inside up by one degree < 1256183529 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are fortunate somebody put the whole thing up < 1256183529 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/toc/toc.html < 1256183534 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm...the avoidance of the irrationality that nature itself does not use? the fact that 2^2 is not necessarily "X squared", but also "X triangled"? < 1256183538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems obvious to me that Buckminster was crazy, or at least highly eccentric, but the Dymaxion sleep schedule, Geodesic domes, Dymaxion houses and other such cool stuff makes me highly suspicious of any accusations that he's just a kook. < 1256183558 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some awesomes quotes from the man < 1256183581 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ummm...the avoidance of the irrationality that nature itself does not use? the fact that 2^2 is not necessarily "X squared", but also "X triangled"? < 1256183583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epistemological anarchism seems stupid. < 1256183587 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256183596 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no! at least back up your insults! < 1256183605 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, in fact, "the use of triangles to build things" < 1256183619 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no...? < 1256183622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, it's "the scientific method is fascist, hurf durf, let's just make up shit". < 1256183632 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now now, ehird, that's not it at all < 1256183643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, the Wikipedia page says nothing about it making coherent arguments against the scientific method as a universal decider. < 1256183702 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely suggest that there is no concrete boundary between "science" and "pseudoscience", and that therefore a theory's "rightness" can only be determined by its validity to reality, and that that can only be determined by its usefulness < 1256183746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Wikipedia claims that the source of epistemological anarchism was against only considering falsifiable claims, so I guess that explains modal realism. < 1256183753 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1005.54 Truth is cosmically total: synergetic. Verities are generalized principles stated in semimetaphorical terms. Verities are differentiable. But love is omniembracing, omnicoherent, and omni-inclusive, with no exceptions. Love, like synergetics, is nondifferentiable, i.e., is integral. Differential means locally-discontinuously linear. Integration means omnispherical. And the intereffects are precessional. < 1256183797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: reading that line is like trying to read in a dream < 1256183800 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1005.612 When a person dies, all the chemistry remains, and we see that the human organism's same aggregate quantity of the same chemistries persists from the "live" to the "dead" state. This aggregate of chemistries has no metaphysical interpreter to communicate to self or to others the aggregate of chemical rates of interacting associative or disassociative proclivities, the integrated effects of which humans speak o < 1256183800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting three words ago < 1256183800 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f as "hunger" or as the need to "go to the toilet." Though the associative intake "hunger" is unspoken metaphysically after death, the disassociative discard proclivities speak for themselves as these chemical-proclivity discard behaviors continue and reach self-balancing rates of progressive disassociation. What happens physically at death is that the importing ceases while exporting persists, which produces a locally < 1256183803 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbalanced__thereafter exclusively exporting__system. (See Sec. 1052.59.) < 1256183805 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is better < 1256183830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, by "Buckminster is awesome" I meant "he was crazy in a cool way, and his inventions are awesome". < 1256183837 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, now, Pthing, we can select at random and then textualize any fragment of any work of science, and reach the same "this guy's a kook 'cause he uses jargon I don't know" < 1256183838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly his written work is rather too eccentric. < 1256183844 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time he was crazy in a boring way < 1256183854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps in his writing. < 1256183860 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what I am talking about < 1256183868 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html < 1256183872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I never said anything about his writing, really. < 1256183872 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, now now stop saying "now now" like a patronising faggot < 1256183875 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a link to that book < 1256183888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I said "at least we're all articulate", maybe Pthing isn't too articulate. < 1256183897 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now now, Pthing, you know namecalling is on the bottom of the disagreement hierarchy < 1256183898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless he's actually saying that Oranjer is acting homoesxual. < 1256183902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*homosexual < 1256183902 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256183907 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, disagreement hierarchy < 1256183915 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen it? < 1256183918 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way to rhizome < 1256183918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: please, say that wasn't a paul graham reference < 1256183922 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhh < 1256183927 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops? is that taboo? sorry < 1256183937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feacepalm
< 1256183939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1256183941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm < 1256183954 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fecespalm* just sounds awful < 1256183978 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jargon can be used for multiple purposes < 1256183987 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally it is used as a kind of shorthand for more complex terms < 1256183993 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you fail to provide a framework of definitions < 1256183995 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, as here, it can be used for poetic mystification < 1256183997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graham's disagreement hierarchy falls into the the latter of the two categories of Paul Graham's work, being stupid ego-driven rubbish and complete obviousness yet somehow presented in the most egotistical way imaginable. < 1256184013 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? you can tell the difference between the two, Pthing, without knowing what the words mean? < 1256184022 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sorry, ehird < 1256184024 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then please explain < 1256184043 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no, I can't Pthing, I just like to be confrontational < 1256184081 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we're quoting authorities and accusing each other of being inarticulate, I'll pull out the "if you can't explain what you are doing to an n year old child, then you do not understand it" card < 1256184082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's... surprisingly honest. < 1256184088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: by the way, oerjan may sue you for name infringement. < 1256184092 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256184104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: I can't explain the halting problem to an n year old child. < 1256184108 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard of that individual, as I have also heard of you, ehird < 1256184109 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1256184116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, specify n. < 1256184125 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is usually ~= 6 < 1256184143 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you caught me, Pthing--I do not understand anything Buckminster says--I've never read a single thing he's ever written < 1256184143 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's often specified that it is a bright child < 1256184154 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh then < 1256184157 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256184181 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the unpopular epistemic idea of "people who have read a text are better equipped to discuss it than people who haven't" < 1256184192 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehahaha < 1256184206 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what we're doing, anyway < 1256184231 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was rather hoping you could explain what you saw in the above quoted sentences < 1256184234 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would ask how this all started, but I learned my lesson before < 1256184237 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they seem entirely meaningless to me < 1256184249 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? then I shall look at it again < 1256184249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll grab the acid and the popcorn < 1256184250 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather pregnant with a meaning always out of grasp < 1256184267 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can make for fine fiction, but this does nothing for me < 1256184296 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah no, I ain't getting anything outa it--I don't know what half the words mean < 1256184317 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if Buckminster built up from earlier definitions of those words? < 1256184319 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is an epistemic Pro Tip < 1256184327 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1256184333 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256184344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should write some nonsense on how the scientific method is inherently capitalist, and proposing a collectivist form of epistemological reasoning < 1256184348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then submit it to a postmodernist journal < 1256184356 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and throw in feminism, of course < 1256184359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada, Sokal affair mk. II! < 1256184363 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1256184377 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you kinda prejudice it by saying it's nonsense < 1256184383 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, shrill feminism, where history is masculine and whatnot < 1256184395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Define it < 1256184403 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define what :| < 1256184408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you kinda prejudice it" < 1256184409 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sokal affair mk. II? < 1256184413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, such a paper has something like a 99.99% chance of being bullshit < 1256184414 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paper you proposed? < 1256184418 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1256184424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair < 1256184428 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh! < 1256184433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Thus why I said "some nonsense" < 1256184435 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that without even clicking on it < 1256184442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: haha < 1256184473 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :political criticisms of such things are not entirely nonsense < 1256184497 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would argue that nothing is entirely nonsense, if it has functionality < 1256184508 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's functionality < 1256184521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with this discussion? you go around and point out some Buckminster bullshit, and now you're praising an imaginary paper that decries the scientific method as being capitalist < 1256184531 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not praising it? < 1256184531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proposing some vague, meaningless "collectivist epistemology" < 1256184536 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you proposed it >:| < 1256184539 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, ehird, perhaps his consistency is beyond you? < 1256184542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like we're continually swapping places all the time < 1256184544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Yes, as a hoax < 1256184545 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only content with pretending to write it < 1256184545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a joke < 1256184548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'see < 1256184552 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're pretending i'm critiquing the finished product < 1256184560 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ehird, switching positions is a good thing, I've heard < 1256184566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i'm confused < 1256184570 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm actually talking about the whole body of ideas that would lead to such a thing being written for real < 1256184571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're saying that it wouldn't be bullshit, no? < 1256184576 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1256184588 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means one is more focused with reaching the truth, as opposed to merely wanting to convince others of your own rightness < 1256184590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, a paper about anything can theoretically be reasonable < 1256184600 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monkeys n' typewriters, eh? < 1256184603 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were written well, it would make a lot of sense in the field < 1256184610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'd wager the chances of making such an argument in a form *suitable to postmodernist journals* < 1256184616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having it be coherent < 1256184617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is roughly nil < 1256184618 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which journals are those < 1256184621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postmodernism is bullshit < 1256184628 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's postmodernism < 1256184635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: For instance, Social Text, subject of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair < 1256184641 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that < 1256184641 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ehird, but all things exist as examples to learn from--even bullshit < 1256184651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism < 1256184654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do your own research < 1256184655 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1256184660 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'pataphysics!!! < 1256184663 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1256184669 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant < 1256184674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simple answer is that you can't define postmodernism because it's just a bunch of bullshit made to sound intellectual perpetrated by idiots < 1256184674 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you understand postmodernism to mean < 1256184682 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1256184687 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you go around with a definition like that < 1256184688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just answered your question before you asked it! < 1256184694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Causality, in your face < 1256184696 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then obviously what you said is true < 1256184700 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1256184701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: yes, because my experience has shown it to be true, < 1256184706 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :experience of what < 1256184708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: just like you consider buckminster a kook < 1256184709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see? < 1256184718 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the contrary < 1256184720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from your experience of his works, you conclude they're all bullshit < 1256184725 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think buckminster had some good ideas in there < 1256184726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore you deduce that buckminster writes bullshit < 1256184730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is called "reasoning" < 1256184733 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not say that buckminster is bullshit < 1256184738 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say he writes very boring books < 1256184740 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, peoples, let the other person talk! oy vey! < 1256184742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess reasoning's a bit capitalist though < 1256184746 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'all are talking over each other < 1256184752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, you know, male-oriented < 1256184755 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hardly good debate from < 1256184767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: with IRC, you can't make someone else's message unreadable; isn't it great < 1256184775 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1256184778 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, ehird? < 1256184788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does it matter if you talk over another? < 1256184793 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have much the same opinion of the various philosophical schools that get accused of being postmodernist < 1256184794 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite simply < 1256184803 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of context is not in the meaning < 1256184808 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, incidentally, is a term the people themselves don't like to use < 1256184851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, let's talk about post-capitalist rationalism as applied to geometry < 1256184860 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, to avoid language games and talk past each other as much as possible, we should let the other person complete their thought < 1256184862 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just a thought) < 1256184862 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how to < 1256184870 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to! < 1256184873 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up, not you < 1256184874 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bisociation, bitches! < 1256184877 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(awwwwwww) < 1256184946 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that matter, come to think of it, "there's a lot of very boring writing about things nobody cares about, but there are a few gems of ideas" is a pretty good description of scientific journals in general < 1256184973 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of science in general, I would argue < 1256184978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think that the general Euclidian approach is inherently biased in that it favours circles to squares, circles being the only uniform object, and I would like to consider a circle as a man, so we can see that the problem most be solved, in a post-capitalist feminist society, by reasoning that squares and circles are both equally round, thus collectivising roundness < 1256184999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so bullshit I almost believe it < 1256185019 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where would the functionality in subscribing "roundness" to both squares and circles? < 1256185046 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the Euclidian approach favors circles to squares? I have seen no such thing--citations, please? < 1256185048 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still haven't explained what the shit functionality is < 1256185059 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its use! can I use this? < 1256185061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a property can be imagined, it is necessary. But biased properties are problematic. < 1256185065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are inherently anti-feminist. < 1256185082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Clearly, uniformness is desirable: there is no discrimination between the different parts of a shape. < 1256185083 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use it for what? < 1256185090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, uniformness is feminist. < 1256185097 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you did was translate from latin to english < 1256185099 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever the Observer wishes to use it for, Pthing < 1256185101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Squares are not uniform, therefore they are inferior to circles. < 1256185113 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just used "use" to define "use" < 1256185120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is anti-collectivist discrimination. < 1256185120 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1256185129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Squares have to answer to circles at the points where they differ from another point and circles do not. < 1256185132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not collectivist. < 1256185133 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very, well, Pthing, I shall think about this < 1256185140 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1256185144 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't lead anywhere < 1256185148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In conclusion, Euclidian geometry must be replaced with a post-capitalist, feminist, collectivist replacement that views circles and squares as equally round. < 1256185159 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why are you doing this < 1256185164 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I have actually gone for some time assuming the definition of "functionality" as something hardly worth referring to < 1256185169 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1256185174 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a consequence, it's not worth talking about < 1256185181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: It's more interesting than any other equally-bullshit thing we could be talking about. < 1256185183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus it's fun! < 1256185187 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "It won't lead anywhere" is hardly evidence supporting its own claim < 1256185208 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, Pthing, it's not worth talking about because it has no use < 1256185225 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so stop < 1256185268 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, I would argue that the only way to "prove" communication is if a goal is accomplished whose accomplishment's chances of occurring would have been greatly increased if the second party understood the communication < 1256185296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys! < 1256185307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :post-capitalist, feminist rationalism on geometry! < 1256185308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go go go < 1256185308 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fffffffffffffffffffffff < 1256185308 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore, I would say a theory has functionality if the Observer can use it to accomplish a goal < 1256185323 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop < 1256185324 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuken < 1256185343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chastisty is no waay to live life! < 1256185345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god I can't spell < 1256185350 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, what? < 1256185352 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nobodyscores.loosenutstudio.com/index.php?id=534 < 1256185355 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of that < 1256185361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Chastity *way < 1256185388 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you said "Chastity is no way of life! God can't spell!" < 1256185405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, my friend, is also true < 1256185407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is also true. < 1256185434 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, I long ago learned to avoid any assumption of knowing an "absolute truth" < 1256185450 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I instead use "valid according to what I have observed of this universe" < 1256185475 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I do turn all so-called objectivist, absolute statements into subjective relativism < 1256185476 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1256185481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M SORRY IN FUTURE I'LL AVOID SIMPLE, USEFUL TERMS THAT YOU KNOW THE MEANING OF IN CASUAL ENGLISH < 1256185485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO THE USE OFF LOWERCASE < 1256185489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*OF < 1256185491 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA < 1256185496 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE FUTURE IS AWESOME < 1256185561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN THE FUTURE WE HAVE DISCONTINUED LOWERCASE < 1256185565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS OBSOLETED < 1256185580 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO AUTHORIZED THAT CHANGE < 1256185609 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Jesus Fuckin' Houdini did this get outa hand < 1256185657 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to create a functionally universal language that explicitly refers to its own abstraction and that which it does not cover! < 1256185685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Importing Jesus/Houdini porn from Hilbert-space is really not what the world needs right now. < 1256185691 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256185720 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I have determined that all such "mental" planes only exist in the meta-, and as such cannot carry on into this space < 1256185735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got any other semantically empty metaphysics? < 1256185754 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256185755 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly < 1256185764 0 :madbrain!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1256185767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on an engine powered entirely on renowned rationalists rolling in their grave < 1256185772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it could help to set it off < 1256185777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost entirely clean energy < 1256185788 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean semantically empty because you do not know what I mean by the words I say, or because you know for a fact that what I say has no meaning? < 1256185794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just need to keep making up enough bullshit by the time they stop rolling < 1256185803 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because you're being BORING < 1256185808 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there exists a distinct difference between the two < 1256185809 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwww < 1256185813 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, Pthing < 1256185817 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1256185822 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( < 1256185831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: because I'm fairly sure any digression into what meaning you consider it to have will involve the words "subjectivity", "reality" and "epistemology" < 1256185835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "metaphysics" < 1256185846 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try to avoid those words < 1256185847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically boiling down to "but. is. this. universe. even. REAL?" < 1256185852 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256185868 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love it when a movie ends in an existential crisis < 1256185909 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have yet to see a single one that does, I am afraid < 1256185931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how do you know you love it < 1256185937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST ASKING THE OBVIOUS QUESTION HERE < 1256185958 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well, I shall amend my original statement as per your observation < 1256185994 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my, my, there is some philosophical thought going in here < 1256186000 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/I feel like I would enjoy/ a movie that ends in an existential crisis, if indeed such a movie exists < 1256186051 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, ehird? From what I have seen, E-prime makes explicit those things that normally divide most sides of a disagreement < 1256186080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e-prime seems really superficial < 1256186091 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is largely dealing with semantics < 1256186092 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e-prime? that's the english without the verb to be? < 1256186093 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1256186099 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, madbrain < 1256186102 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1256186110 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used it for years in all my official documents < 1256186124 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I gotta tell ya, it makes you seem hell of smarter < 1256186146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a rationalist language that accounts for subjectivity on all levels, and integrates the scientific method and probability to have different levels of truth, so to speak < 1256186147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be interestingn < 1256186150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interesting < 1256186150 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it has helped me cut through the curvy-turvies of most modern ethical dilemmas < 1256186159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but removing a few constructs from english does not a disambiguation make < 1256186164 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1256186172 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to go beyond just removing "to be" < 1256186172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, less sillily worded, does not disambiguate :P) < 1256186180 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e-prime looks silly to me < 1256186219 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit < 1256186221 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e-prime < 1256186223 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also: try to avoid negations, try to avoid stative verbs, try to date and place my sentences, and try to make explicit the source(s) of the evidence my claims < 1256186232 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work < 1256186240 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, bloody hell < 1256186242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to avoid negations < 1256186243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1256186244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on earth < 1256186247 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just makes you sound rehearsed for nothing in particular < 1256186247 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have any evidence to support that, Pthing? < 1256186251 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256186267 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You disagree with sounding rehearsed why...? < 1256186268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: remember? all truths are valid independently of their reasoning method < 1256186273 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah i forgot you'd built a religion about things working < 1256186275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo you demanding evidence is authoritarian < 1256186277 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, quite < 1256186282 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256186288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epistemological anarchhism BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKFIRE < 1256186291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*anarchism < 1256186293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in conclusion < 1256186304 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, adjectives come in 2 forms < 1256186305 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the effect of it is that you are making a grand show < 1256186307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot challenge pthing's statement without making a claim as to what reasoning method he is using < 1256186308 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no content < 1256186313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be authoritarian and incorrect < 1256186316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOWEVER < 1256186322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this itself may be untrue < 1256186324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it was derived from logical reasoning < 1256186328 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The blue dog X" and "The dog is blue" < 1256186328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, by epistemological anarchism < 1256186330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack overflow < 1256186331 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly, ehird--I say an idea's validity is independent of its source < 1256186333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :core dumped < 1256186334 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256186334 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what content there is is disguised in all this attempt to *sound* plain spoken < 1256186341 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when instead you should just *be* plain spoken < 1256186346 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1256186347 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than coming up with awkward theatrical tricks < 1256186367 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've used several rehearsed sentences so far repeatedly < 1256186369 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is this < 1256186371 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : do you have any evidence to support that, Pthing? < 1256186380 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's by means of a catchphrase, isn't it < 1256186385 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT < 1256186387 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JESUS FUCK < 1256186390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1256186394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overreaction much? < 1256186394 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no "catchphrase" < 1256186397 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ehird < 1256186401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said what what, in the butt < 1256186408 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In english, the epithet form of adjectives (The blue dog) is the default, and the attribute (The dog is blue) needs "to be", but there are plenty of languages where it's the other way around, ie adjectives are all verbs < 1256186410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said what what, Jesus fuck < 1256186414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could make a good sequel. < 1256186423 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I despise the overblowing of misunderstandings and an air of the assumption of veracity < 1256186431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, ehird < 1256186433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you realise that statement means nothing < 1256186438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, just inquiring < 1256186446 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely stated an opinion of my own < 1256186447 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1256186451 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is exemplary < 1256186457 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, Pthing, that was hardly a catchphrase < 1256186458 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you think of a way to say what you just said < 1256186462 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but *using fewer words* < 1256186464 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can < 1256186467 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try! < 1256186473 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall think about it, and come back < 1256186481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"defend that" < 1256186481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1256186483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"evidence?" < 1256186486 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that another catchphrase? < 1256186486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap that was hard < 1256186492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1256186494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fun < 1256186494 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you just said < 1256186498 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I shall think about it, and come back < 1256186499 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that before < 1256186502 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256186503 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1256186509 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys are thinking too hard about that stuff < 1256186509 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was hardly intentional < 1256186517 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, madBRAIN < 1256186519 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256186524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: no, Oranjer is making bullshit and we're anti-bullshitting it :P < 1256186540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the reason this channel is so addictive is that it's brutally confrontational < 1256186546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, ehird < 1256186548 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no doubt < 1256186562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even interest in a language is expressed with a prod for details and an implied criticism if the details are wrong beforehand < 1256186569 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, Pthing, could you repeat what you said I should say in fewer words? < 1256186576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works and it's fun < 1256186584 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is also typical < 1256186587 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is crazy < 1256186588 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the false precision < 1256186596 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"could you repeat what you said I should say" < 1256186600 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256186601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of circumcision < 1256186601 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see why that's nonsense, right < 1256186603 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more and more you analyze it, the hairier your model gets :D < 1256186603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn that almost rhymed < 1256186603 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot it < 1256186622 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I didn't say something once, *how can I repeat it* < 1256186623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you pthing < 1256186623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1256186628 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256186653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me, or are we totally deconstructing Oranjer's reality piece by piece < 1256186655 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, now you're just arguing semantics, and that's a dick move, and I fear it is made outa spite < 1256186662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor guy didn't know what he was getting himself into < 1256186670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't say arguing semantics < 1256186673 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I suspected as muc, ehird < 1256186673 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I am trying to show that you are talking in an unclear way < 1256186674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of e-prime < 1256186676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "semantics" < 1256186682 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general semantics, even < 1256186684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's arguing exactly what e-prime aims for < 1256186693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and about that term in general < 1256186693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf?! < 1256186698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics is literally the meaning of EVERYTHING < 1256186700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else CAN you argue < 1256186702 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* Pthing, I believe you're operating under the misconception that I am using e-prime, now, in irc chat < 1256186705 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am not < 1256186720 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, clues that you're not include the fact you keep using forms of "to be" < 1256186721 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not "I'm not" < 1256186730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "you're arguing semantics" means "you're making a criticism that i wish to dismiss as trivial because i don't want to reply to it" < 1256186731 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However to return to your question. < 1256186735 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it you wanted, exactly < 1256186739 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you want me to suggest a simpler form? < 1256186741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: maybe instead of using e-prime you should disambiguate things like "you're arguing semantics" < 1256186742 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple style choice, madbrain < 1256186758 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, Pthing < 1256186770 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only Data says "I am not" < 1256186771 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what did you want < 1256186796 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have forgotten what statement of mine you referenced when you suggested that I rephrase said statement using fewer words < 1256186802 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you could want to avoid the contraction as a kind of style effect < 1256186804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn Oranjer < 1256186805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst sentence ever < 1256186807 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing < 1256186808 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1256186810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want me to rephrase it for you? < 1256186810 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sentence was < 1256186810 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry? < 1256186818 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, ehird, why the fuck not < 1256186827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What statement did you want me to rephrase with fewer words?" < 1256186827 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I despise the overblowing of misunderstandings and an air of the assumption of veracity" < 1256186834 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, okay < 1256186838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the one you said, it's not an incomprehensible tongue-twister < 1256186840 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ehird, I prefer your version < 1256186864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with yours is that it keeps referencing "the statement" in different ways < 1256186864 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, e-prime is silly, there's probably a good reason why english uses "to be" all over the place < 1256186876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you have to constantly figure out what statement it refers to each time < 1256186880 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, madbrain, it mainly uses it as a copula < 1256186888 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oy vey* < 1256186926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is such fun < 1256186930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love you guys < 1256186937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to be put in mental institutions. < 1256186937 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you come up with a plainer way to say that yet < 1256186954 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit, ehird, I just reread the sentence you're criticizing, and it really is pretty bad < 1256186964 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't notice? < 1256186966 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, Pthing < 1256186974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, Pthing < 1256186989 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite your, uh, despising an air of the assumption of veracity < 1256187001 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256187021 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the action of posting a sentence here indicate the level of certainty I place in it? < 1256187031 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besardles < 1256187040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besardles! < 1256187051 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a portmanteau of Besides and Regardless < 1256187078 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the uh < 1256187079 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spirit < 1256187080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, most people spell that "Besides" < 1256187085 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of epistemic theories that Just Work < 1256187092 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you been diagnosed with any actual mental disorders < 1256187093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE ARE NONE < 1256187099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are AUTHORITARIAN < 1256187099 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Pthing, I have not < 1256187106 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or schizoid personality disorders? < 1256187110 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope! < 1256187117 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is a mercy < 1256187118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: you have not ruled out the possibility that he hasn't given anyone the opportunity to < 1256187122 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1256187129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: why, does that make him any less crazy < 1256187130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1256187139 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was curious < 1256187146 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( yay! ) < 1256187161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( does not open a () pair, dude < 1256187172 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says you with certainty? < 1256187178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1256187182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called an opinion. < 1256187183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get used to it < 1256187198 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but an opinion masquerading as an absolute fact < 1256187222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously everything I say as "I think" < 1256187226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1 = 2 < 1256187229 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"obviously" < 1256187229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I could be hallucinating the world < 1256187231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my reasoning < 1256187234 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could < 1256187236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore it could be false < 1256187236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore < 1256187238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 1+1 = 2 < 1256187248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you instantly believe everything people say? < 1256187250 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(:( yay! ) < 1256187254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, then you already mentally insert "I think" < 1256187261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there < 1256187271 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I do instantly believe everything people say < 1256187286 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I then immediately test what they just said to my perception of reality < 1256187291 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I determine its validity < 1256187293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer does not exist < 1256187299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW CAN YOU DETERMINE ANYTHING NOW < 1256187301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DON'T EXIST < 1256187302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA < 1256187302 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you output a debug message informing them that this is what you are doing < 1256187304 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1256187316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i just killed him < 1256187318 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually, I do, Pthing? < 1256187324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: you don't exist < 1256187325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you believe it yourself < 1256187328 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256187332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you don't exist you have had no opportunity to test or doubt this < 1256187334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in conclusion < 1256187336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop talking < 1256187339 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256187342 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256187350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop < 1256187351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking < 1256187355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonexistant < 1256187356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing < 1256187361 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm this apparent paradox does reveal a flaw in my reasoning... < 1256187363 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmm < 1256187371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nonexistent < 1256187383 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, can you not imagine a nonexistent, talking thing? < 1256187399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that doesn't mean it exists < 1256187403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cannot exist, by definition < 1256187406 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256187413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does not exist cannot interact with reality, that is, the collection of things that exist < 1256187419 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, geez < 1256187421 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what now? < 1256187424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, obviously a nonexistent, talking thing cannot talk to me < 1256187428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, there's two ways to apply "nonexistant" < 1256187436 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, Sgeo < 1256187437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nonexistent < 1256187438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, in context of imagining something < 1256187536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tapestry of dicks < 1256187537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discuss < 1256187542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256187547 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thanks < 1256187566 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my believing that I do not exist does not preclude my existence < 1256187570 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you can tile a plane with dicks < 1256187576 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, what? < 1256187612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: you believe that you do not exist, and a nonexistent thing patently cannot think in this world (by my prior reasoning) < 1256187622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, by your own belief, you cannot consider whether you exist or not to later deny it < 1256187636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering so would be to deny your belief < 1256187649 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but I am already thinking, and I can use that to invalidate such a beliefe < 1256187649 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*belief < 1256187651 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more so < 1256187674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer thinking is the most abhorrent activity he could do < 1256187675 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says I cannot deny a belief, once I believe it? I must deny it, in fact, to test it's validity < 1256187679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun being abhorrent < 1256187689 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1256187703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but before you disagreed you accepted it < 1256187707 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you at least keep all your cartesian doubt in your inside voice < 1256187707 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1256187710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for that fleeting moment where you considered before denying it < 1256187713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were abhorrent < 1256187717 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was < 1256187726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you agree, your actions were abhorrent < 1256187732 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I remembered many abhorrent things I have done in my past to invalidate that belief < 1256187734 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I cried < 1256187746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, even though the time is passed, you still consider them abhorrent by my reasoning < 1256187749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo... < 1256187754 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh no < 1256187760 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's totally flawed! whoa < 1256187765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[05:01] ehird: so for that fleeting moment where you considered before denying it < 1256187765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[05:01] ehird: you were abhorrent < 1256187766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[05:01] Oranjer: I was < 1256187768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what you thought yourself < 1256187772 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1256187789 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have since invalidated that belief < 1256187791 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore < 1256187794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, your mom < 1256187819 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe I was acting abhorrent, but I do not still believe I was acting abhorrent < 1256187835 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad maternitum < 1256187836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I believe X but I do not still believe X" < 1256187842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you phrased that wrong < 1256187848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I believed I was acting abhorrent, but I don't now" < 1256187853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what you meant < 1256187856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sorry, thanks < 1256187934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway... < 1256187958 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, let's just put all that under several bridges < 1256187972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stomp on it < 1256187978 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my teachers suggested that languages become more isolative as they evolve < 1256187997 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does seem to be kind of a general rule yeah < 1256188024 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would agree < 1256188104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's talk about candy floss. < 1256188130 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256188164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly did I say that was unclear? < 1256188167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said let's talk about candy floss. < 1256188180 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what that is < 1256188187 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they implied that more isolative languages tended to have an advantage "against" less isolative ones < 1256188200 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's a different claim entirely < 1256188216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_candy < 1256188218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discuss it < 1256188225 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gathered it wasn't so much an advantage as a result of what happens when morphosyntactic systems have to adjust to sound changes < 1256188237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm just trying to move immediately from intellectual nonsense to candy floss, you understand) < 1256188242 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cotton candy, I had just googled it, indeed < 1256188249 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which tend to afflict, like, the ends of words where often a lot of morphosyntactic information is kept < 1256188258 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so agglutinative grammars become more fusional < 1256188262 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes, Pthing, I had heard of that < 1256188262 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which become more isolating < 1256188276 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compare that to genetic drift, really < 1256188295 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, cotton candy < 1256188302 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't had it in a while < 1256188329 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you, ehird? < 1256188332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it be awesome if they made candy floss... that you could actually floss with < 1256188334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no, it wouldn't) < 1256188365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: nope! < 1256188368 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that would defeat the purpose of flossing--although, candy floss-flavored floss is pretty okay < 1256188391 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant that as (candy floss)-flavored floss < 1256188405 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a candy version of floss that tastes like floss < 1256188443 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: Possibly... well, it's definitely the case of west european languages like French < 1256188474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pthing:"? did you actually type that out < 1256188475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who does that < 1256188478 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if it applies to chinese though < 1256188485 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now, Pthing, what do you think about this so called advantage? < 1256188490 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ehird, many do < 1256188494 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not know what he means < 1256188495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1256188496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suck < 1256188498 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I obviously prefer the comma verson < 1256188498 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I do not know what to think < 1256188500 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*version < 1256188505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: i meant... < 1256188507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab completion < 1256188508 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enought, Pthing < 1256188519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who types out pthing, I type out p and press tab and get "Pthing:" < 1256188524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "Pthing: " < 1256188531 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOA, really? < 1256188542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes < 1256188549 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never noticed that, thanks < 1256188556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1256188557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you all < 1256188561 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird < 1256188576 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should know I only heard about irc two weeks ago < 1256188580 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not heard < 1256188587 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I only started using it two weeks ago < 1256188633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel's been around since 2002! and if you could misinterpret that as me saying I've been around here since 2002, I'd have absolutely no qualms with that < 1256188643 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh okay < 1256188654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shush you < 1256188665 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby misinterpret to the conclusion that you have been around here since 2002 < 1256188692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's like all of my dreams have suddenly come true < 1256188753 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( yay! ) < 1256188755 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256188800 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you guys students or working? < 1256188810 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me? neither < 1256188818 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never worked an honest day in my life < 1256188828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that really something to be proud of < 1256188837 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even a summer job? < 1256188842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm just a random kid < 1256188847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1256188850 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no summer job < 1256188854 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello random kid < 1256188859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1256188882 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a random consistent kid, or a consistently random kid? < 1256188894 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you change up randomly every type you type? < 1256188896 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1256188896 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256188902 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time you type < 1256188906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINE < 1256188910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm an arbitrary kid < 1256188913 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1256188917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:| < 1256188939 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I always say, multiplicity in validity likely indicates ambiguity < 1256188947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: ahem < 1256188948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ < 1256188950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do your thing < 1256188978 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256188993 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what does that arrow mean as a logical connector? < 1256189012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"up" < 1256189018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pointing up, see < 1256189022 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: multiplicity in validity isn't always ambiguity, I'd think < 1256189023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to your message. < 1256189029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: STOP ENCOURAGING HIM < 1256189030 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256189051 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, ehird, let the madbrain explain its reasoning < 1256189067 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I did not say always < 1256189076 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "likely indicates" < 1256189113 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to make explicit the difference between "rules followed" and "a pattern observed" < 1256189132 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all depends on what you're studying < 1256189166 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? elucidate, please-o-please < 1256189174 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in music theory, rules are often fuzzy and have multiple validity for instance < 1256189206 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! what do you mean by these 'rules'? (I'm not trying to be pretensious, "rule" has a ton of meanings) < 1256189233 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rule" is a bit of a strong term yeah < 1256189240 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean a rule as a procedure for generating the next step < 1256189263 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, madbrain, I think I should explain where I come from < 1256189318 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the statement really to indicate my own dislike for the strict, slavish following of a largely arbitrarily chosen standard < 1256189328 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, grading systems in most educational institutions < 1256189394 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because different places have different definitions of an "A" on down, (and others use a different means of grading entirely), then there probably exists a disconnect with reality < 1256189432 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah grades are kindof arbitrary in a way yes < 1256189445 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the existence of multiple claims to validity require either each to either be invalid, or to have a situational backing < 1256189498 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they exist more as a technique to get students to work harder, figure out which student can get into a special program with only N places, and so on < 1256189520 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! I am not questioning the invalidity of of the system < 1256189541 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then what's your point < 1256189546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am merely asking "why do some places stop "A" at 90, and others stop it at 92?" < 1256189561 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because A has to stop somewhere < 1256189569 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each place presumably follows their own standard strictly < 1256189574 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but then why the difference? < 1256189597 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nobody decided to take the time to make a national standard probably, no? < 1256189600 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stopping point is chosen arbitrarily, and therefore, invalid, or it has a situational backing in research < 1256189624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a global standard, you mean--other countries use entirely different scales < 1256189630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not invalid < 1256189634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that it's more convenient to say A < 1256189635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than < 1256189639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"80-90" < 1256189646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying that categorisation is inherently wrong? < 1256189649 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not necessarily invalid < 1256189654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you cannot group related grades? < 1256189655 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, at some point the result system is going to have to be quantized < 1256189658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, them's fighting words; also stupid words < 1256189658 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see that disjunction up there? < 1256189711 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, madbrain, I would agree, within this current system, a form of grade quantification is largely necessary < 1256189726 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where do we draw the line between A and B? < 1256189785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrarily, by definition < 1256189798 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I would disagree < 1256189846 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, considering you have such grades as A- and B+ available, you can spread the grades in such a way so that all the grade range will have meaningful steps available < 1256189869 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! exactly! that's hardly arbitrary criteria < 1256189883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like < 1256189885 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I like "meaningful steps" < 1256189885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just shorthand for a range < 1256189889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these people are 70-90 < 1256189896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't mean that someone below is bad < 1256189898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could be 69, see? < 1256189906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just useful for general grouping < 1256189909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing to get worked up about < 1256189911 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1256189915 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1256189924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you're giving too much importance < 1256189928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to simple aliases for ranges < 1256189934 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said, I do not disagree with the use of shorthand for grade ranges < 1256189956 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only disagree with arbitrarily chosen differences between the ranges < 1256189976 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than that < 1256189992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i see < 1256190002 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, cool < 1256190008 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've seen something along the line of 96%+ ->A+, 93%=A, 90=A-, 87=B+, 84=B, 81=B-, 78=C+, 75=C, 72=C-, 69=D+, 65=D < 1256190026 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256190047 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more than this < 1256190066 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grading systems aren't the only systems that humans use that have arbitrarily determined facets < 1256190084 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that's normal < 1256190086 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, most of that arbitrariness is necessary, as here < 1256190088 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256190089 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1256190117 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then, they use system with arbitrariness, the arbitrariness is necessary, what's the problem < 1256190157 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am concerned about what I have observed as a general inability for such systems to change according to new evidence, evidence that would render the set of available choices not-so-arbitrary < 1256190205 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, I say that the arbitrariness should be made explicit, and not to be assumed as the absolutely correct choice < 1256190206 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well then your problem is not with arbitrariness, it's with the general tendency for inertia < 1256190211 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1256190241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i get more tired < 1256190241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you both get more boring < 1256190267 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird < 1256190270 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CANDY FLOSS < 1256190273 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CANDY FLOSS < 1256190284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg < 1256190286 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the tendency for inertia is not any sort of philosophical problem < 1256190286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i totally agree < 1256190298 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it is < 1256190308 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it leaves a system open for fuck-ups < 1256190320 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the possibility of fuck-ups < 1256190331 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That still has nothing to do with philosophy, that's more politics < 1256190347 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly < 1256190381 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, this is getting dangerously close to us arguing "what is philosophy?", which may bore ehird to death < 1256190504 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just based on all sorts of pragmatic reasons and decision making processes < 1256190516 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, and? < 1256190524 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing deep with it < 1256190529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: my boredom is actually gnawing away at my intestine < 1256190535 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird < 1256190542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there's nothing deep with it" huh < 1256190546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh < 1256190547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have a stroke in approximately five minutes < 1256190552 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256190564 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, t-5 min < 1256190580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intestines really aren't liking this. < 1256190595 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256190616 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1256190617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :om nom nom nom < 1256190618 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shall we discuss my procedurally generated platforming game idea? or do you find that boring as well? < 1256190626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that sounds fun! < 1256190630 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1256190646 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think designed gameplay is better than procedural < 1256190649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by procedural, you do mean based on past gameplay, as opposed to just random-given-these-constraints, right? < 1256190658 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errrr < 1256190668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the game generates levels that are hard for you to complete < 1256190674 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly the latter, but it would work in the first < 1256190680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on where you stumbled and succeeded at other points < 1256190684 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1256190689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, it really would keep getting harder and harder < 1256190693 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's a good idea, I hadn't thought of that < 1256190701 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a learning procedural game? oy vey < 1256190707 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, madbrain, why do you think so? < 1256190713 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do mean by designed? < 1256190733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spend half an hour failing one jump and the next level is an optimal packing of as many of those jumps as possible :) < 1256190733 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like you put tiles/game objects/whatever explicitly in an editor of some sort < 1256190742 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh < 1256190755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, that's a rather pathological case though < 1256190756 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree with your opinion, then, madbrain < 1256190795 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "designed" games as you say are more personal and what not, but I would like to see if the same effect can result from procedurally generated content < 1256190803 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, ehird... < 1256190806 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that procedurally generated levels, while having a certain diversity, can't have the depth of a designed level < 1256190811 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256190813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: Hey! < 1256190815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :them's fighting words < 1256190819 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1256190820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent to "strong AI cannot exist" < 1256190829 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's okay, he's right--well, he's right now < 1256190831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is simply false, unless you make ridiculous spiritual assumptions < 1256190849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yes, currently, procedural generation cannot match the depth of designed levels < 1256190856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I agree with ehird--we don't want no goddamn bio-chauvinists here < 1256190856 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as of yet, based on what I've seen, it is true < 1256190858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be useful in areas other than total design of a level < 1256190859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1256190861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long-term < 1256190867 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but but < 1256190872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the possibility of strong AI means that we can have perfect procedural levels < 1256190876 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course if someone designs some miraculous AI algorithm then this might change < 1256190880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as good as us, at least < 1256190887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not miraculous < 1256190889 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made the lack of emotional attachment to the content an explicit issue < 1256190898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a planet-sized supercomputer, we could simulate a human brain today < 1256190902 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as of now that strong AI does not exist yet < 1256190904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd just be really, really tedious < 1256190908 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey! no AI talk here! come on!!! < 1256190910 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256190914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: whyever not? < 1256190932 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we all already agree on it < 1256190936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: I'd content that strong AI does exist... 's called homo sapiens :P < 1256190941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: It's fun, though! < 1256190943 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256190963 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know...but I had some other ideas central to my game that I wanted to share...:( < 1256190966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be careful about telling the AI to make fun levels first thing, though < 1256190978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll just replace the whole universe with a huge level < 1256190981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :singularity first, games later!! < 1256190984 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256190985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: sure, go on :P < 1256190989 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, thanks < 1256191030 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first step was to ignore all previous assumptions about the traditional divisions between "enemy", "object", "npc", "wall", "platform" < 1256191042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1256191044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this like < 1256191048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamestemological anarchism < 1256191052 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly, no < 1256191057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a wall, a platform, an enemy, an object, an npc, and the player < 1256191059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND SO IS EVERYTHING ELSE < 1256191062 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO! < 1256191066 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the player is a constant < 1256191066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are all equally valid methods of game objecting < 1256191071 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they are < 1256191082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TYPECASTING GAME OBJECTS TO ONE OF THEM IS FASCSISM < 1256191084 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, there can be a wall/platform/enemy/object/npc < 1256191087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*FASCISM < 1256191093 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddammit ehird < 1256191104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do realise you can talk while i blabber, right? < 1256191106 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: sounds like a good step to try to design a new genre but what did you came up with from that position? < 1256191109 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256191116 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a new genre, madbrain < 1256191132 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I simply intend to suggest an alternative means of categorization < 1256191146 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent solely on a /thing/'s relation to the player < 1256191154 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what's your new categorization < 1256191156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaningful relationships of game objects < 1256191165 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because each thing's characteristics are determined randomly < 1256191207 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ok < 1256191214 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if something has a combination of the characteristics of "removes health from player when the player touches it" and "moves toward player when it enters within X units", then the player would likely classify that as an "enemy" < 1256191235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sounding like one of them over-complex rpg-style thingummies :P < 1256191241 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not rpg! not at all < 1256191249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean tabletop sort of thing < 1256191253 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hardly complex, merely a platformer < 1256191254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oohhh < 1256191255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ontological object system! shut up I just want to shoot some things that are shooting me < 1256191256 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1256191261 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256191272 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what are your other characteristics? < 1256191279 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, many, madbrain < 1256191298 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here < 1256191309 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how do you ensure that more or less any combination is possible < 1256191325 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :context-specific generation, of course < 1256191326 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO < 1256191331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote oohhh ha heh and what are your other characteristics? oh, many, madbrain but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here < 1256191333 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93| oohhh ha heh and what are your other characteristics? oh, many, madbrain but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here < 1256191356 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the player can, at any time, press a single key to skip the current level < 1256191368 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as to avoid even the possibility of the generation of an impossible level < 1256191374 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, this posed a problem < 1256191377 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I stated before < 1256191381 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then he could skip all the levels yeah < 1256191404 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's an unlimited number of levels, as each level is generated when you start it < 1256191408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it so that progression in the level difficulty, setting, reward etc, < 1256191409 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem was < 1256191412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on how much you achieive < 1256191415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*achieve < 1256191424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so skipping generates a new level, but doesn't let you get any further, so to speak < 1256191432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a level from the same prototype < 1256191457 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how do I convince the player to explore each level instead of just holding down the skip button until they see something they like?" < 1256191473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256191479 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rewards was my answer--specifically, rewards the player can carry through and use throughout the levels < 1256191502 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, ehird, the skip button would likely generate an entirely different level--but that's a good suggestion, thanks < 1256191515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1256191518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just mean parameters like < 1256191520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :difficulty < 1256191522 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the most rewarding thing in a game is to be presented with a hard task, needing many tries, and eventually solving it < 1256191529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what selection of enemies can be used < 1256191529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1256191557 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, so I guess that is a good idea < 1256191561 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what you two mean now < 1256191577 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the completion of a level is rewarded with more challenging levels later on < 1256191589 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dammit, saying that seems so obvious) < 1256191603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: i think you should try out each separate idea in a little minigame before combining them < 1256191610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the procedural generation + objects based on aspects instead of a predefined type < 1256191613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :separately < 1256191614 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or...make them multiple options? < 1256191621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean as prototypes < 1256191622 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the best levels in lemmings are the ones that are short, not tedious, but really complicated < 1256191627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since doing both at once would be quite a task < 1256191631 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256191635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: have you played infinite mario? < 1256191641 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I have! < 1256191652 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually found that after I thought up this idea < 1256191657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: imagine infinite mario bros, but done with procedural generation < 1256191661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: the anti-player procedural genereration < 1256191668 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly my point, ehird < 1256191674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it in screenfuls < 1256191675 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by anti-player? < 1256191680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you go past one screen < 1256191686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it generates a new screen and scrolls on to it < 1256191687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except smoother) < 1256191689 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhhh < 1256191690 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256191692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so not screenfuls, do it by column) < 1256191692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: and < 1256191696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: it'd be based on where you stumbled < 1256191703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you stay in one place trying to execute a jump < 1256191710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there'll be more of that kind of jump < 1256191713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you keep dying because of an enemy < 1256191716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you'd have multiple lives) < 1256191722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that enemy would be more common < 1256191727 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you'd have infinite tries for each level, of course < 1256191734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is < 1256191735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you die < 1256191739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you go back to where you were before your dying move < 1256191750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since in this mini game thing, there'd just be one big level < 1256191752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, every time the screen scrolls right to reveal another few columns, it's optimised against you < 1256191762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on what you've been failing and succeeding at in the recent past < 1256191763 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of Bastet < 1256191769 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :short for Bastard Tetris < 1256191770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly! < 1256191773 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes < 1256191775 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256191776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, the level itself, until you stop playing, < 1256191780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually reflects how you played in its structure < 1256191784 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basplatformer < 1256191787 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basplat < 1256191790 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUDE < 1256191793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it'd be great fun, and probably not too hard to implement < 1256191804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ehird, no offense, but that's your idea < 1256191810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cloning infinite mario is easy, so it's just a procedural generator + some parameter tweaking based on past performance < 1256191815 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad that I sorta inspired that < 1256191816 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1256191816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: i was just giving one example of an idea < 1256191824 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, ehird < 1256191840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, something like that has enough value in itself, that i think you could look into something similar before the combined version < 1256191841 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems that what you suggest is...not...exactly...what I had in mind < 1256191846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because combining all the aspects would be a pain < 1256191850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: as i said, it was an example < 1256191850 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256191854 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1256191857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of how you can make a game entirely based around one part < 1256191865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is good ffor prototyping them < 1256191878 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's a good enough example that one could, nay, should make an entirely separate game about that < 1256191905 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore, if you want, you should < 1256191933 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it < 1256191934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never could get the hang of pygame and the like < 1256191938 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ha < 1256191948 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could never get the hang of python < 1256191960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impressive < 1256191965 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1256191970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you not get the hang of python? it's ridiculously orthodox and simple < 1256191978 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not the language < 1256191981 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implementation < 1256191987 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the...interface...thing < 1256191994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of slowness? < 1256191996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256192005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what then, the REPL? < 1256192014 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I have no fucking clue what it does! < 1256192020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1256192028 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one write a program in python? < 1256192037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put it in a file, save it, "python file.py" < 1256192038 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a text editor, then saving it as...? what? < 1256192040 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1256192042 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GODDAMMIT < 1256192049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you use windows or something? < 1256192053 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY THE FUCK WAS THAT SO HARD FOR ME TO FIND < 1256192060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...o_O < 1256192067 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of Course I use windows, because I am in idiot < 1256192086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i was wondering how you could possibly have trouble with running the python command :) < 1256192087 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next: how do I run the .py file? < 1256192093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python file.py < 1256192093 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, ehird < 1256192100 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell does that mean? < 1256192106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: have you... installed ... python? < 1256192107 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I type that somewhere? < 1256192109 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have < 1256192117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should have added IDLE to your menus. < 1256192127 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, menu"s" < 1256192127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find the Python menu, and open IDLE. < 1256192133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :menu, whatever < 1256192135 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256192139 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I have Enso < 1256192151 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use capslock as a sorta quasimodal command line < 1256192159 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hold down capslock, anywhere, < 1256192162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what enso is < 1256192165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's explicitly non-modal < 1256192167 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes! < 1256192172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was made by the son of jef raskin after all < 1256192184 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit, mate, you're the first person who knew all that stuff outside of me telling you < 1256192187 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes! < 1256192198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interaction design is awesome. < 1256192201 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1256192220 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mind you, I love to take the whole quasimode idea perhaps a bit too far) < 1256192228 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I open up IDLE < 1256192238 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I type python filename.py < 1256192241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256192244 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1256192249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IDLE is a GUI interface to python, and an editor for it < 1256192252 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256192257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I...uh...what < 1256192257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're using windows, the command line has totally anemic facilities < 1256192260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no point using it < 1256192268 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I don't use IDLE? < 1256192268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: what's there is a python console < 1256192271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use IDLE < 1256192276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pops up a python shell < 1256192277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can enter lines of python < 1256192278 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see the results just by pressing enter < 1256192287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also open and save files (with syntax highlighting) < 1256192291 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I type in IDLE "python filename.py < 1256192292 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1256192296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256192298 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256192299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you run the program IDLE < 1256192300 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256192301 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a windows program included with the Python distribution < 1256192311 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1256192325 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just opened it < 1256192328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pops up a python shell, where you can enter lines of python and see the results by hitting enter < 1256192333 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also open and save files with python syntax-highlighting < 1256192344 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, how do I open filename.py? < 1256192351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and press F5 or F8 or something (see the menus for the shortcut) to run the current file in the shell < 1256192354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: see the IDLE menus. < 1256192361 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy vey < 1256192405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being a programmer on windows is a pain... unless you use microsoft languages... < 1256192406 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I just went to File...Open...and I found a .py file on my computer < 1256192419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a gui, it's all in the menus, including the shortcuts < 1256192423 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it opened up some code < 1256192424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just poke around < 1256192431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I press enter? < 1256192436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256192440 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256192442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the window that IDLE first opened is the shell < 1256192445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other windows are file windows < 1256192448 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192452 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a file window open < 1256192457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the shell? < 1256192463 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is also open < 1256192475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, in one of the menus in the file window there's a Run Module command < 1256192479 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256192480 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will reset the current shell session < 1256192488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and run the file < 1256192496 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, okay < 1256192498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can experiment with code by entering it in the shell, then moving it to the file < 1256192507 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh okay < 1256192515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why hu < 1256192517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*uh < 1256192532 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is on run module anywhere < 1256192540 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only Open Module... < 1256192542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooooookay let me open IDLE haven't used it in ages < 1256192559 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it < 1256192563 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under Shell < 1256192566 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says restart shell? < 1256192573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256192574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the menu is < 1256192576 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256192577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run -> Run Module < 1256192582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the file < 1256192584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1256192600 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said in the shell's menu's...or...I heard that....dammit < 1256192632 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh okay the file had an error but I think it "worked" < 1256192654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make a file with < 1256192656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "Hello, world!" < 1256192657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in it < 1256192660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guaranteed to work :P < 1256192663 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192669 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256192686 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems I have forgotten (given up on after all this didn't work for me) the language < 1256192696 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bastard tetris might be unwinnable < 1256192707 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all tetris is unwinnable, madbrain < 1256192708 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256192723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: anyway, you can enter lines into the shell to test out new code < 1256192728 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean it is impossible to get any lines, madbrain? < 1256192734 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256192736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: as a tip, until you need to have the "final" thing < 1256192743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: ready to run as a thing in itself, that is < 1256192746 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put all the stuff in functions and classes < 1256192756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have a main() function < 1256192759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can press run module < 1256192760 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256192763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'll actually load the module in the shell < 1256192769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything in your file is in the shell < 1256192774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can run code as if it was in the file < 1256192776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to test things, etc < 1256192777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug < 1256192784 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhhhh < 1256192796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish people wouldn't say uhh to really simple stuff :| < 1256192816 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple? simply to you--I say uhhhh because I know it is simple to you, but I do not understand it < 1256192846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what part < 1256192858 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256192865 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shell" < 1256192883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shell is the python shell window that IDLE opens at the start < 1256192887 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can enter some python code, hit enter, and see the results < 1256192897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(type 2+2 in it and hit enter) < 1256192906 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256192919 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an error comes up when I type in main() function < 1256192925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type in what exactly < 1256192935 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"main() function" < 1256192953 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a different error when I just type in "main()" < 1256192963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did I say "main() function" was valid python code < 1256192975 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1:25:37 AM) ehird: put all the stuff in functions and classes < 1256192975 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1:25:40 AM) ehird: and have a main() function < 1256192975 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1:25:44 AM) ehird: so that you can press run module < 1256192982 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::? < 1256192989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is, have a function called main() < 1256192994 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256193001 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typed in "main()" < 1256193004 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that did not work < 1256193012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, you have not defined a function called main(). < 1256193016 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh < 1256193019 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def main(): < 1256193022 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256193032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then type the body in indented code < 1256193034 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweetness < 1256193039 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then have a non-indented line < 1256193043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it auto-indents, coppro. < 1256193043 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, using whitespace as blocks is awesome < 1256193048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IDLE that is) < 1256193057 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I remember that < 1256193060 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, coppro < 1256193060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just hit enter twice after the last line and it's defined < 1256193061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1256193065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining main() in the shell is pointless < 1256193069 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1256193071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1256193075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't use IDLE < 1256193078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: he does. < 1256193080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: it's just to put your stuff in in a file < 1256193085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: the shell is a line-by-line interpreter < 1256193089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: so that you can hit Run Module, and instead of running your whole program and exiting < 1256193089 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what file? < 1256193106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: are you getting the distinct feeling of bashing your head against a brick wall? < 1256193111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: very < 1256193119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think Oranjer is leaking memories, first he forgot the shell that i explained earlier, then the file he had open... < 1256193125 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone for Omega Chess? < 1256193142 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ivank` < 1256193145 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that file? the file I opened? < 1256193150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any file < 1256193153 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1256193153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :playing mario while constantly holding the go faster button is hard < 1256193158 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256193173 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means you can't shoot fire < 1256193177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In this quarter-second, you will discover there is a large gaping chasm in front of you" < 1256193183 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256193184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: which emulator? < 1256193187 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you playing basmario? < 1256193191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not mario, Infinite mario bros < 1256193194 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256193206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst part is enemies < 1256193210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just gotta hope you don't run into any < 1256193217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the VBA distributed with Ubuntu has some issues :( < 1256193227 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so uh how do I manipulate files in the shell? < 1256193248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: like, what do you mean < 1256193250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you want to do < 1256193254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256193255 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: the shell is where you type in code < 1256193257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha i just walked the fuck under one of those jumpy pipe flower things < 1256193262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: misleadingg < 1256193262 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256193264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*misleading < 1256193266 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python runs the code < 1256193270 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1256193290 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a file is where you put python code < 1256193295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you tell python to run that file < 1256193299 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python runs the code < 1256193309 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so, in the shell, I define main()--how do I put that in a file? < 1256193314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256193315 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without copypasting? < 1256193320 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? okay < 1256193322 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256193326 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't define main in a shell < 1256193328 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't need it < 1256193329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only forth works like that :P < 1256193333 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256193340 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I defined main() in a shell < 1256193342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've a feeling we've gone about 7,429 steps ahead of Oranjer, coppro < 1256193351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: do you program at all? < 1256193357 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not recently < 1256193361 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, at all < 1256193364 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1256193366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would do it < 1256193370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"not recently, as in, at all"? < 1256193372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, I have to go to bed < 1256193374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a way of saying "no"? < 1256193376 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun with ehird :P < 1256193379 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designing a processor is hard < 1256193380 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm used to html/javascript/css < 1256193389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only javascript is a language out of all of those. < 1256193393 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1256193395 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's me point < 1256193398 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ehird said < 1256193483 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what now? < 1256193499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wellllllll < 1256193511 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone interested in sound synthesis? < 1256193513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorta not going to teach you the entire practice of programming from scratch, I'm afraid < 1256193517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: Gregor < 1256193523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, ehird, that is not necessary < 1256193525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: um, no < 1256193529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's interested in algorithmic composition < 1256193535 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: close enough < 1256193537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: read a tutorial. They suck almost unilaterally, but whatever. < 1256193539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to sound synthesis? < 1256193540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, no < 1256193546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have, coppro, most of it < 1256193549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: diveintopython.org < 1256193553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's slightly outdated < 1256193554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and flawed < 1256193554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eh < 1256193557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mark pilgrim is cool < 1256193571 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, madbrain, are you refering to the maxim that "every two songs are remixable together"? < 1256193574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, decide if you want P3K, which is new and shiny, or 2.6, which is old bnut works < 1256193577 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*referring < 1256193580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256193583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want p3k < 1256193584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :srsly < 1256193586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/bnut/but/ < 1256193591 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256193606 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I'm not referring to algorithmic composition < 1256193636 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you referring to then? Don't keep us guessing! < 1256193644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound synthesis. < 1256193649 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256193650 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256193656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what he said. < 1256193659 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any...alternative names for that concept? < 1256193661 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm referring to basically synthesizing sound from parameters < 1256193665 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1256193670 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie like a synthesizer keyboard < 1256193682 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sound chip or plugin etc < 1256193690 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! that's the opposite idea i had when I said the previous oh! < 1256193762 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, suppose your synthesizer is controlled by midi, when you get a message to generate a D5, how do you do it? < 1256193779 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256193786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? < 1256193796 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a message from what? < 1256193867 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, usually it comes from a MIDI keyboard (ie physical keyboard that the user is playing on) or a sequencer (ie software that plays a recorded sequence of notes/controllers/etc) < 1256193880 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256193935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound synthesis is actually a very neat concept < 1256193955 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, depending on which algorithm you use, you get different sounds < 1256193964 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah < 1256193969 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256194046 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my game)-->(making games)-->(pygame)-->(me learning how to use python! finally!) //// (sound synthesis) < 1256194053 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256194068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm unsure of what //// means < 1256194069 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, one popular algorithm is to play a recording of an instrument note faster or slower < 1256194113 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess //// means "completely unrelated"--I guess I could have used a semicolon, but that hardly connotes the cutting motion < 1256194126 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: well, that's because your library handles the audio mixing and stuff for you < 1256194148 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256194208 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what about it? < 1256194217 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound synthesis: what now? < 1256194221 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which might be more or less complex depending on what music format you use < 1256194239 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: well, I was just curious if anyone else in here was interested in the topic < 1256194255 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no, please, continue, I'm fine with the subject at hand < 1256194282 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think my connection's woozy, and I think I am receiving comments much later after you send them < 1256194293 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to me, I think, it's some silence < 1256194318 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if it's .mid, obviously it's going to be played on some sort of synthesizer < 1256194325 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256194367 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.mp3 or .ogg will be decoded ofc < 1256194382 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256194451 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1256194452 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: i think i have a makefile? i < 1256194458 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sorry < 1256194481 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain? you there? < 1256194484 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256194485 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird? coppro? < 1256194487 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256194489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256194493 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256194514 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh espernet is netsplitting like crazy < 1256194526 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well basically uhh I kinda wanna talk about my game if it's uh---what, madbrain? < 1256194533 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :netsplitting? < 1256194568 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :netsplit is when irc servers have connection problems and disconnect from each other < 1256194574 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256194581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish Oranjer could carry on conversations about everything else as uncluelessly as he does random epistemology crap < 1256194581 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, irc servers are connected to each other? < 1256194585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1256194587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yes. < 1256194590 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256194595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode, efnet, all the networks, are made up of a bunch of connected servers < 1256194597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to handle all the loud < 1256194598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1256194601 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1256194602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each network is a network of servers < 1256194605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the networks aren't linked < 1256194609 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1256194615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when two servers in a network disconnect, each sees the people from the other leave < 1256194620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until whatever happened is fixed < 1256194622 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I fear I have been using the wrong terminology < 1256194632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually they automatically return in a minute or two due to automatic restarting of the server) < 1256194643 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1256194679 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, uncluelessly? what do you mean by that? < 1256194694 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nevermind < 1256194698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you keep going "uhh" and stuff :P < 1256194702 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sorry < 1256194710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just kidding < 1256194713 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall cease all such utterances immediately < 1256194772 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: well, what sort of stuff are you interested in? < 1256194778 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boy < 1256194795 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the world, of course < 1256194798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: come on, mere minutes into him entering here < 1256194804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have been able to tell you < 1256194806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that asking that of him < 1256194811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a very bad idea < 1256194819 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ < 1256194825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run! RUN! This place may be safe again in a few years! < 1256194847 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using nomics for a greater purpose then survival--as in, the nomic creates something bigger and more persistent than itself < 1256194880 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah..that's actually it < 1256194892 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you already know I'm working on a characteristica universalis < 1256194917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the world, greater-than-self nomic < 1256194923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two goals of equal importance and magnitude. < 1256194932 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I guess < 1256194949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what nomics do you play < 1256194951 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, have you heard of esquisite corpse? < 1256194974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one right now--BlogNomic, but I've played face-to-face nomic before < 1256194981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esquisite isn't actually a word < 1256194983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. BlogNomic. < 1256194998 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exquisite < 1256195001 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1256195008 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exquisite corpse, then? < 1256195034 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellos? < 1256195038 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1256195054 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exquisite corpse, the surrealist art game? < 1256195075 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heard of it, haven't tried it < 1256195075 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where each person down the line gets a bit of information on what the previous person did, adds to it, and passes it on? < 1256195080 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! it's fun < 1256195093 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great game in school when you're bored < 1256195104 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1256195123 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the idea that the players would also specify a set of themes for each turn < 1256195135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny, that's sort of like the thingy i made. 'cept not really. < 1256195135 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of these are games < 1256195193 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, for the first section, the theme would be "fire", next would be "fire" and "guitarcar", then "fire", "guitarcar", "ocean", then "guitarcar", "ocean", "Mario", etc. < 1256195201 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it starts over every three themes < 1256195204 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY < 1256195217 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like... music, programming, comics, phonetics.... that kind of stuff < 1256195221 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wondered why no one had made a nomic exquisite corpse < 1256195222 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256195237 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm interested in human-computer interfaces < 1256195248 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, etc. < 1256195284 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird know the latter--do you know the former? < 1256195297 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like the infinite canvas thing? < 1256195309 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! but more than that, of course < 1256195329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scott mccloud finds a comic guy < 1256195338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's that related to hci < 1256195343 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAHA < 1256195345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, he made the google chrome comic. < 1256195359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha ha ha to you too < 1256195360 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you...you just asked me...how...it's...related...to "X"....heh < 1256195379 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno... the web seems to have settled on a different standard than infinite canvas, which you could describe as "finite width but infinite height" < 1256195387 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to say that that is my main interest--juxtaposition < 1256195397 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I am saddened by that, madbrain < 1256195403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a more relevant note < 1256195409 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ehird? < 1256195411 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it still has hyperlinks < 1256195413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is scott mccloud related to interaction design if this is the same guy < 1256195430 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how are tacos related to the moon? < 1256195441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that meant to be interesting? < 1256195443 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d90f2d@gateway/web/freenode/session JOIN :#esoteric < 1256195446 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is not < 1256195449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:07] Oranjer: well, I'm interested in human-computer interfaces < 1256195449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:07] Oranjer: Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, etc. < 1256195449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:08] Oranjer: ehird know the latter--do you know the former? < 1256195453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see in no way how scott mccloud relates to the rest of those three lines < 1256195464 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of a static order of pages of finite width and height, you get a dynamic order of pages of finite width but infinite height < 1256195477 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda like movie tropes < 1256195480 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :displays are a main part of human-computer interfacing, ehird < 1256195487 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, tv tropes! what now? < 1256195494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer < 1256195495 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah tv tropes < 1256195498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell < 1256195501 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the dice, ehird? < 1256195509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've mentioned a random comic guy < 1256195514 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1256195514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then said some totally unrelated things < 1256195519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this somehow tying him to HCI < 1256195521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't buy it < 1256195523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I consider integral to human-computer interfacing < 1256195523 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tv tropes is so browsable that it enters the cycle of life < 1256195529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what... comics? < 1256195534 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not comics < 1256195539 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :displaying of information < 1256195547 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of which comics is only a part < 1256195552 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie browsing 1 page makes you browse 1+e other pages < 1256195558 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256195562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer < 1256195565 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ehird < 1256195567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling every comic artist in the world < 1256195570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an HCI person < 1256195577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is, what's the word, stupid < 1256195584 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh < 1256195594 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, no, because McCloud has made some cool ideas regarding HCI < 1256195600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEE < 1256195602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't you tell me that < 1256195603 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make comics eventually, but I lack funny ideas < 1256195604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was first aasking < 1256195607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell he was related < 1256195613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to giving me some meaningless pap < 1256195620 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is too bad because I've gotten not so bad at drawing < 1256195636 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird, I have never, ever, ever, encountered a meaningless gap < 1256195650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1256195650 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, madbrain? you need funny? < 1256195660 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny is hard < 1256195661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sorry, ehird, I have never, ever, ever, encountered a meaningless gap" < 1256195662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1256195670 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, ehird, these "gaps" you speak of I find integral to creativity < 1256195682 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have found it called "bisociation" < 1256195687 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you even talking about < 1256195691 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to mere association < 1256195698 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :links coming up, I guess < 1256195717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: Oranjer is defending dodging my question "how does scott mccloud relate to HCI" before giving in and giving me a straight answer. < 1256195736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deliberately being obstructive with communication is not a good policy to get people to continue to talk to you < 1256195761 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ehird, I apologize for any miscommunication on our part < 1256195762 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, scott mccloud gave a series of ideas of how to expand comics in a popular book, most of which are unpractical < 1256195775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: miscommunication? but you just defended it < 1256195782 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, what? < 1256195786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1256195792 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of those ideas join HCI stuff, but it's kindof a tenouous gap < 1256195797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"as in, member:ehird, these "gaps" you speak of I find integral to creativity" < 1256195799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1256195801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid colloquy < 1256195804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256195811 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I shall resayit < 1256195823 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I have no idea what that sentence even means < 1256195834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's the one who said it < 1256195837 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256195887 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am interested in applying and synthesizing the ideas of Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, and others to Human-Computer Interfacing < 1256195890 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1256195944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: should I go to bed (I feel safe in asking you this because the chance you will give me a straight answer is roughly zero) < 1256195959 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want to go to bed? < 1256195981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know! < 1256195996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ha! I just reread the text up there < 1256196000 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems I misread you < 1256196007 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: will you have 8 hours of sleep? :D < 1256196016 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you said "meaningless pap", i thought you said "meaningless gap" < 1256196020 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry :( < 1256196025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: um, probably? :P < 1256196029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: xD < 1256196036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're amusing < 1256196039 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1256196048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a dog changing its own tail, except... intellectually... chasing its own tail... < 1256196052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except not really like that at all < 1256196055 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256196057 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256196081 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: do you do conlangs? < 1256196113 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by do? am i familiar with them? do I know any? yes, no < 1256196146 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I am in the process of creating a universal language, so I suppose I do conlangs < 1256196165 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda like esperanto or lojban? < 1256196176 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thanks, those are hardly "universal" < 1256196195 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1256196205 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be very difficult to form or invent this language or characteristic, but very easy to learn it without any dictionaries. < 1256196212 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my main criteria < 1256196214 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno for lojban but esperanto is afaik basically a romance language < 1256196220 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256196239 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: but then you run into some problems < 1256196249 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa! do you know of any languages where poetry/the conveyance of emotions was the explicit purpose? < 1256196250 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely that you need some vocabulary < 1256196254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, hardly < 1256196262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban is nice < 1256196266 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, it is < 1256196272 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I think so < 1256196279 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I never learned it < 1256196340 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: maybe you should look at some very isolating languages like chinese then< < 1256196348 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually prefer the ontology of Ilaksh and Ithkuil < 1256196355 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps, madbrain < 1256196370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll isolate your mom < 1256196373 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess such things would help me in my pursuit of becoming a mesalinguist < 1256196429 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously those languages have some more aesthetic stuff such as large phoneme inventories < 1256196442 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what "those languages" do you refer to? < 1256196448 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chinese? < 1256196472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:25] madbrain: oranjer: maybe you should look at some very isolating languages like chinese then< < 1256196472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:27] madbrain: and obviously those languages have some more aesthetic stuff such as large phoneme inventories < 1256196479 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ithkuil in particular < 1256196484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ha < 1256196488 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, blows to you, ehird < 1256196489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: your "and" fucked that up < 1256196491 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I asked < 1256196496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes it connect with your previous statement < 1256196509 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah, that too < 1256196514 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, heh < 1256196533 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although chinese hardly has a small inventory either but that's besides point < 1256196560 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, madbrain, I misunderstood the situation < 1256196568 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a vocabulary is necessary, but... < 1256196633 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the structure of each symbol, and thus its syntax, would reflect the relational web of the concept it represents so closely it would be intuitive for any human < 1256196645 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*more intuitive than so-far natural languages < 1256196687 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually found a bunch more criteria a universal language would likely have to fulfill < 1256196691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i postulate such a language is impossible < 1256196692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1256196712 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if that relational web is complex, the words would become long, which would make it impractical < 1256196714 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ehird, I prefer that to "You're an idiot for even suggesting this" < 1256196714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boy i'm getsin' tired < 1256196720 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, not "long" < 1256196734 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what concept do you know has a complex relational web? < 1256196734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: who said that < 1256196749 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people I speak of this to, not you, ehird < 1256196751 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about something like "man" < 1256196758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you are a cook. < 1256196759 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, a human? < 1256196760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1256196761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kook < 1256196772 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'm a conlang cook, thanks < 1256196783 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean the male of a human? < 1256196802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*male of the human species < 1256196804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256196808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, kook coon cook's nook < 1256196823 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is look the only verb there? < 1256196827 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say the male < 1256196832 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256196832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256196834 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256196854 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, yeah, that's pretty complex < 1256196855 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256196882 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, complex web for a common noun that's very short in english < 1256196886 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256196908 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I could argue that such a disparity makes the language harder to understand < 1256196959 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, I want the semantics to match the syntax, and I want the syntax to match the relations of the concept represented < 1256196961 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so...hmmm < 1256196969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every concept is infinitely complex. < 1256196974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1256196982 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a result comming from the fact that some concepts are very common, hence get very short names, but have very complex meanings and stuff < 1256196986 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Buddhist idea of impermanence < 1256196988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't bode well for your language < 1256196989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1256196993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: err < 1256196993 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes...hmm... < 1256196997 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ehird? < 1256196999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recall mentioning any buddhist idea < 1256197008 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? does that matter? it relates < 1256197011 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and inversely rarer words tend to be longer and have less complex meaning webs < 1256197013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1256197020 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotey coming up < 1256197021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to realise that other people cannot see your deductive processes < 1256197026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to ask, and you have to tell us < 1256197037 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256197062 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A name is imposed on what is thought to be a thing or a state and this divides it from other things and other states. But when you pursue what lies behind the name, you find a greater and greater subtlety that has no divisions..." –Visuddhi Magga < 1256197070 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the wiki link is coming up < 1256197083 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, that's the point of the name < 1256197085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that relates to what i said < 1256197089 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, heh < 1256197096 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is all sorts of complex objects in the world < 1256197104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i was trying to express is that every idea has infinite relations to other ideas < 1256197116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :furthermore, you cannot define an idea in a way meaningful to a human in a way other than these relations < 1256197117 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name serves to take all these objects and put them together < 1256197122 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, in Buddhism, it is explicit that the existence of every thing depends on the existence of its relations with every other thing < 1256197122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every word must be infinitely complex < 1256197126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is... problematic < 1256197130 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes...hmmm < 1256197134 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1256197141 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is an impossible ideal, yes < 1256197142 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1256197147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Butt! < 1256197154 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butte < 1256197162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anus. < 1256197164 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can always approach to the point where it is intuitive /enough/ < 1256197167 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, Pthing < 1256197168 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inappropriate < 1256197170 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1256197184 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impermanence I guess < 1256197185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anuses are never inappropriate < 1256197190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER < 1256197196 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should strive for a language that is comparatively more intuitive/easier < 1256197200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have not slept. < 1256197203 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the point, madbrain < 1256197212 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why you should look at chinese < 1256197220 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a couple of good ideas to lift off < 1256197224 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that intuitive? it has a massive vocab < 1256197240 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but it has a more limited set of morphemes < 1256197241 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but then, everything has "a couple of good ideas to lift off" < 1256197254 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it has 5000 morphemes < 1256197262 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, with plenty of different meanings behind those < 1256197270 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1256197301 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I considered whether the pronunciation of a concept's name should work it's way into the graphic text < 1256197309 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with some work you can restrict the number of morphemes down a thousand or two and clean them up a bit < 1256197309 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that...difficult to implement < 1256197315 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256197331 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's what a morpheme is < 1256197345 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah...but it is usually inexact < 1256197348 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point where the link between pronunciation and meaning becomes arbitrary < 1256197349 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer something like < 1256197351 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1256197361 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.omniglot.com/writing/visiblespeech.htm < 1256197367 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can break down a morpheme then it's not a morpheme < 1256197375 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, yeah < 1256197400 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I say there should be a strict 1:1 relation between each morpheme and each phoneme < 1256197403 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I think the latin alphabet is good enough for any auxilliary language < 1256197427 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: well, then you'd need a language with 1000 phonemes < 1256197431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the structure of each grapheme does not reflect it's syntax! at least a language should do that < 1256197436 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harrumph < 1256197442 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1256197447 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you can do is a language where each morpheme is a syllable < 1256197453 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot more reasonable < 1256197465 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, you're building this up to Chinese, aren't you? < 1256197476 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know its a syllablaalary...er.. < 1256197481 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's true that chinese is a lot like that :D < 1256197515 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, context-free affixes < 1256197517 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a must < 1256197520 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are those < 1256197535 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefixes and suffixes and infixes and circumfixes < 1256197547 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affix < 1256197568 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you mean clean grammar with no irregularity? < 1256197568 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what context free means, right? < 1256197576 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1256197584 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's not hard < 1256197584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like a reasonable demand < 1256197603 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, some real languages come close (like.....chinese) < 1256197609 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(damn you) < 1256197619 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, explicit evidentialities < 1256197630 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidentiality < 1256197657 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's not like chinese < 1256197666 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256197678 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1256197682 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I long ago found a good quote about so-called universal languages < 1256197691 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Leaving hopes and utopias apart, probably the most lucid ever written about language are the following words by Chesterton: "He knows that there are in the soul tints more bewildering, more numberless, and more nameless than the colours of an autumn forest... Yet he seriously believes that these things can every one of them, in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary syst < 1256197708 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, ignore the first " at the beginning < 1256197745 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stops at arbitrary syst < 1256197754 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256197764 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrary syst? < 1256197780 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" be accurately represented by an arbitrary syst" cut off after that < 1256197786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! sorry < 1256197788 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc has a character limit < 1256197793 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did my other quote also cut off? < 1256197809 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary system of grunts and squeals. He believes that an ordinary civilized stockbroker can really produce out of his own inside noises which denote all the mysteries of memory and all the agonies of desire" < 1256197841 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about visible speech, I don't think you need that, latin alphabet is good enough < 1256197854 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an auxlang at least < 1256197856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not think so < 1256197866 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is too unintuitive < 1256197866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: you are using pidgin, yes? < 1256197872 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, yes, ha! < 1256197876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: I highly suggest getting a client actually designed for IRC < 1256197881 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I can't < 1256197881 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean too unintuitive < 1256197886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: one that can split messages for you just by sending them < 1256197888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: why not? < 1256197893 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you have to teach the letters to kids < 1256197901 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I also use pidgin for IM < 1256197908 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to teach how to put letters together into syllables < 1256197910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: and? < 1256197912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can run two programs < 1256197915 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1256197921 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18 is more than enough! < 1256197925 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think visible speech helps much with that < 1256197929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM is different from channels < 1256197939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and every client that tries to do both fails at the latter < 1256197955 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, madbrain, when you say "visible speech", do you mean text, or graphical language? < 1256197966 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to make sure we are not talking past each othere < 1256197974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that last "or" is actually an "and" < 1256197982 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in text, and graphical language < 1256198025 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.omniglot.com/writing/visiblespeech.htm visible speech < 1256198032 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, ehird, I now know there is a limit--I can adapt by putting in shift + enter < 1256198035 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh! hahahahahaha < 1256198039 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot I linked that < 1256198049 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just using that as an example! ha < 1256198052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yes, but adding too many = bad < 1256198054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it floods the channel < 1256198056 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like another IPA basically < 1256198058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which pisses off everyone < 1256198079 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must now reread your previous comments, madbrain, with that in mind < 1256198119 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: what you're talking about also sounds like a taxonomic language < 1256198124 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, geez < 1256198135 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I apologize--we were talking past each other for some time < 1256198144 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1256198151 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I would say that visible language is as good and as bad as latin, sorry < 1256198165 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it is an ontological language, aye < 1256198168 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1256198185 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I don't know < 1256198209 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all such ontological languages I have seen have used entirely too arbitrary classification systems < 1256198229 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :akin to Dewey putting "other religions" in the last tenth of "religion" < 1256198247 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dewey Decimal System, I mean < 1256198253 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one problem of such systems is that it makes related words too close < 1256198272 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you not think of a way past that? < 1256198282 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think I do, but I gotta find the right words first) < 1256198299 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, wolf vs dog vs fox < 1256198336 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a taxonomic system they would have very close forms < 1256198337 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, say, veliolflu, velulflo, and vefulflia < 1256198339 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256198341 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256198367 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if Ithkuil has that problem < 1256198372 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1256198382 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why close morphemes tend to dissimilate rather than to become closer < 1256198388 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256198399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1256198400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1256198445 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, say each morpheme was a syllable < 1256198467 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh-koh-lee < 1256198473 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh-koh-fee < 1256198475 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1256198477 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256198496 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be acceptable to have, say, man-vel vs vel vs no-vel < 1256198529 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, I was thinking that the most specific part would always get added to the front < 1256198535 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like wild-dog vs dog vs red-dog < 1256198551 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would likely encourage clipping off the end, the most general < 1256198562 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it? < 1256198573 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that could happen < 1256198587 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, especially in specialized disciplines < 1256198599 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a namespace (the clipped end) is always assumed < 1256198601 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then with the reverse order they could clip out the start anyways < 1256198615 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it more likely to do that? < 1256198633 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're better with the more specific first < 1256198652 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe....but actually, I just realized two things < 1256198662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obama is a 5,000 volt telephone pole < 1256198672 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might depend on whether your language is head initial or head final though < 1256198677 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256198686 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'll be right back < 1256198695 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ? < 1256198702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i simply state facts < 1256198753 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno what to think about obama yet < 1256198780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's like bush except more articulate! < 1256198788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he is a 5,000 volt telephone pole and bush is not < 1256198788 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha no < 1256198819 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he's like bush < 1256198841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convincing. < 1256198852 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have returned to find this almost devolving into...*gasp!* a political tussle! < 1256198874 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, back to auxlang stuff < 1256198884 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I do find similarities between both president's first years in office--but then, every president's first year is like that < 1256198886 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, anyway < 1256198889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious to any non-USian that the democratic party is a crazy right-wing party and the republican party is a crazy right-wing party with slightly more delirious religious crap... < 1256198914 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh okay pipe down ehird it's okay they're coming for you but they will help you it's okay ehird < 1256198921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i say this from the UK, a country only slightly to the left of the US :/ < 1256198924 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized something, madbrain < 1256198930 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256198937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: what is that meant to imply? you actually think the democratic party is left-wing? < 1256198947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody keep this guy away from europe, he might have a seizure < 1256198965 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean to imply that I wear a beret and I bomb government buildings, now SHUT up < 1256198980 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to languages < 1256198992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, have fun < 1256198995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me know how that obama thing works out < 1256199005 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: who knows < 1256199026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna bet? i don't < 1256199033 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an ontological language, concepts closely resembling each other conceptually also closely resemble each other morphologically, right? < 1256199046 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's the problem you stated before_ < 1256199047 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1256199058 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in the ones people have tried up to yet, yes < 1256199061 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256199063 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1256199143 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the characteristica universalis I suggest, one criterion would be that the grapheme, and therefore the morpheme, of a concept would resemble the syntax of the concept represented by that grapheme/morpheme < 1256199149 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1256199181 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concepts with closely resembling syntaxs would resemble each other morphologically < 1256199186 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not see that as a problem < 1256199202 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about pronunciation? < 1256199218 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm...true...doesn't lojban have something to say about that? < 1256199221 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it can < 1256199224 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it can < 1256199227 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamit < 1256199234 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it can't be misheard? < 1256199248 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally people grasp languages orally and translate that oral stuff into writing, not the other way around < 1256199294 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that leads to the problem that what you're expressing might be a tree or a web of relations, but speech is linear < 1256199295 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but "normally" is hardly "intuitive enough to learn instantly and to have the ability to convey fairly complex concepts unambiguously" < 1256199303 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hmmm < 1256199305 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1256199328 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graphic part of the language would resemble a web of concepts (it does, actually) < 1256199338 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the speech is linear....hmmm < 1256199342 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps... < 1256199355 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have a problem < 1256199360 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "pushing" and "popping" from one block to the next < 1256199373 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest to master writing system is the one that follows speech the closest < 1256199374 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is conveyed orally? < 1256199388 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what I mean by "pushing" and "popping"? < 1256199398 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like stack-like? < 1256199406 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! I believe so! < 1256199416 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pushing is going in, popping is going out < 1256199425 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, then you get something close to SOV languages < 1256199440 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or VSO < 1256199445 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, what? I know what that means, but I fail to see the connection < 1256199463 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can give an example in english? < 1256199471 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, japanese for instance is subject-object-verb < 1256199505 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MaryStartingThink TomStartingWants Cake TomEndingWants MaryEndingThink < 1256199507 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the affixes and suffixes apply in a sort of front to back direction < 1256199532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the omission of subject and object when it can be inferred. < 1256199539 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "ending wants" or whatever is one thing, not the thing for "ending" and the thing for "wants" < 1256199558 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like "John Mary made-Cake-[o] likes" < 1256199562 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mary Thinks Tom wants Cake." < 1256199570 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256199588 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made-Cake-[o] likes? < 1256199608 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[o] means that the preceding noun is the object < 1256199610 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you give me the translation of your sentence, please? < 1256199622 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John likes the cake mary made < 1256199626 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmmm < 1256199636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John Mary made a cake o' lies. < 1256199642 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, okay, I can see that < 1256199666 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the subject and the Verb "surround" the object, and it continues "downward" from there? < 1256199673 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, that's cool < 1256199677 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1256199681 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ha < 1256199683 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1256199687 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice in japanese the verb is always at the end < 1256199694 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256199716 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but made is not at the end < 1256199720 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your example < 1256199724 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then everything else comes in before, accompanied by a little syllable telling what it does respective to the verb < 1256199737 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made is a subordonate clause < 1256199750 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a verb? < 1256199753 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1256199762 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie it's not the focus of the sentence, it's a property of "cake" < 1256199767 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1256199775 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno about that part, though < 1256199779 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like < 1256199791 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John likes the cake [mary made that cake] < 1256199797 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256199818 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! you are describing the origin of the cake (the object)! < 1256199820 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more precisely < 1256199820 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John likes the cake [the one that mary made] < 1256199839 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically like an adjective, but instead of just an adjective it's a whole verb < 1256199849 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the origin, I guess, would act as a modifier, aye < 1256199856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1256199875 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it helps you guess which cake precisely you're talking of < 1256199882 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's "cause", " relative time of origin", and 'relative location of origin" < 1256199891 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cake [reject any cake that was not made by mary] < 1256199899 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mary-made-it would act as the "cause" < 1256199904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;' < 1256199910 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, ehird < 1256199916 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: It's even more general than that < 1256199922 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, madbrain < 1256199928 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am merely throwing out ideas < 1256199939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1qaz2wsx3edc4rfv5tgb6yhn7ujm8ik,9ol.0p;/-['=]| < 1256199941 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a determiner, really < 1256199944 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reference < 1256199947 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: it's a small sentence, if that sentence is not satisfied, then you have the wrong cake < 1256199953 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256199963 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, when did we bring logic into this? heh < 1256199981 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you're trying to make an ontological language after all :D < 1256199990 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1256200040 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John Mary-made-yesterday-Cake likes" < 1256200068 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tom John Mary-made-yesterday-Cake likes thinks" < 1256200070 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1256200072 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah except in japanese the order would be "John Mary yesterday made Cake likes" < 1256200120 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, progenitor, to temporal, to relation between the progenitor and the object < 1256200120 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, yesterday is one of the arguments of "made", it has to go before it < 1256200125 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256200147 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, SVO still feels too natural too me < 1256200167 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should look at chinese < 1256200174 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may-be < 1256200192 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chinese is a totally different ball game and it's SVO down to the nails < 1256200213 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! I thought you would be recommending a language that was outside my comfort zone < 1256200222 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn you, enabler! < 1256200227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: Except for the various part of sentence modifiers... < 1256200234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those make it much easier to understand... < 1256200236 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, pikhq < 1256200252 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are...are people watching this conversation? oy vey < 1256200253 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In chinese you'd have "John like mary yesterday make-[de]-Cake" < 1256200268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qazxswedcvrtgbnhyujm,kiol./;p['\] < 1256200270 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de? < 1256200274 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :determiner? < 1256200289 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, [de] is the chinese equivalent of "that" < 1256200294 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256200298 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's in reverse order < 1256200307 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256200315 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's also applied to adjectives and possesives < 1256200333 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me [de] cake = My cake < 1256200337 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of the order, I still would like it if there was some way to indicate the end of each "stack" < 1256200352 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the problem with SVO < 1256200353 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a closing parenthesis < 1256200358 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1256200364 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVO doesn't really work like a stack < 1256200367 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's a problem with most languages < 1256200378 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so SOV would act as a stack? I see that...hmmm < 1256200417 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, madbrain, you know Chinese? < 1256200424 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I learned some < 1256200429 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coolsome < 1256200468 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for evidentiality, you could probably do that with auxilliary verbs < 1256200517 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least that's how english tends to work afaik < 1256200519 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought an affix to the verb, like in...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language < 1256200549 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I like examining that language for its sheer differentness < 1256200606 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pirahan is kinda weird yeah < 1256200658 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just really like the idea of an evidentiality mandatory for each verb < 1256200681 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or...inheritable evidentiality? or, I dunno < 1256200691 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could have a default level, and add on affixes to change that < 1256200698 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256200706 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use auxilliary verbs < 1256200741 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "Bob crazy" vs "I think Bob crazy" vs "I sure Bob crazy" < 1256200745 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps...but that hardly seems mandatory, ya know? besides, the only difference between the two is the presence or absence of a space between them < 1256200778 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends, an affix is not a word, a verb is one < 1256200782 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bob acts crazy, I-know-because-I-observed Bob acts crazy < 1256200804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but a "word" is just an affix with a space separating it from another < 1256200805 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the verb could be separated by some extra words but not the affix < 1256200819 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1256200820 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256200827 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: but there are no spaces when speaking < 1256200844 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: yet some languages still clearly delimit words phonetically < 1256200866 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly...? < 1256200879 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there is usually a hiccup or two < 1256200897 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in turkish, you have vowel harmony < 1256200908 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in french you have the sliding thing < 1256200919 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually french is a bad example < 1256200922 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256200966 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it tends to jumble up together multiple words and it has tons of clitics, ie words that are somewhat between words and affixes < 1256200974 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye... < 1256201017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nity < 1256201021 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also french is really hard to separate into morphemes < 1256201038 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless, we're arguing over whether to use affixes or auxiliary verbs to convey evidentiality, which is an altogether ridiculous argument < 1256201067 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am more concerned over evidentialities-about-evidentialities < 1256201093 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what < 1256201123 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He-(I-think-he)-thinks She ate the last piece < 1256201138 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I think that he thinks that she ate the last piece < 1256201155 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think "I think that..." would work < 1256201160 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256201168 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what say you? < 1256201181 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evidentiality in English? < 1256201183 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it works in english < 1256201189 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256201203 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think you'd have more or less the same way of expressing it in french or chinese < 1256201208 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, puzzlet, we're trying to construct a universal language < 1256201217 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, madbrain < 1256201251 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would "I think he thinks" add to the top of the stack, or would it just add to the verb within "He thinks"? < 1256201257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1256201259 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha! < 1256201274 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a stupidly obvious conundrum-solution! < 1256201283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he thinks that he thinks that he thinks < 1256201286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what he thinks he thinks < 1256201298 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/we add the evidentialities to the top of the stack!/ < 1256201309 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, dammit < 1256201311 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, depends < 1256201321 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work for the verbs, I guess < 1256201350 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what of the object's characteristics? how sure am I that Mary made a cake? or would that modify the verb as well? < 1256201354 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evidentiality with "I" is ok, but when you're getting into evidentiality for other people, it would be probably simpler to use a verb for "think" < 1256201366 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256201374 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example please! < 1256201390 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, what about Bob thinks < 1256201399 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you going to put Bob < 1256201402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i should sleep < 1256201419 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, ehird < 1256201425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1256201426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHOULD < 1256201426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1256201444 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pics or it never occured < 1256201462 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, were those examples? < 1256201482 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, say "Bob thinks paul gave an apple to anna" < 1256201488 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256201504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: did you make "pics or it never occurred" like that deliberately < 1256201508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that actually how you'd phrase it < 1256201515 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1256201528 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Schrodinger's Picture Album < 1256201556 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in that sentence you have 1 action action (give), 4 nouns < 1256201574 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1256201589 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the idea that one of them is having a point of view on that action < 1256201602 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bob Start-think Paul start-give-to-anna apple End-give End-think. < 1256201610 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you express that < 1256201620 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's your example < 1256201629 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bob thinks Paul gave an apple to anna < 1256201656 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe...maybe /only/ evidentialities should go to the top of the stack! < 1256201669 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256201686 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, oerjan < 1256201695 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing an r, oerjan < 1256201706 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bob paul anna apple give think < 1256201744 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(while making explicit the difference between the direct and indirect object of give, of course) < 1256201751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have heard of that individual, as I have also heard of you, ehird < 1256201753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spooky < 1256201756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256201759 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1256201760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a villain < 1256201772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Now... this will be very swift." < 1256201796 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: actually you don't HAVE to make a difference between the direct and indirect object < 1256201802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? go awesome or go home, I say--that also applies to the minuscule of speech < 1256201806 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although most languages do it < 1256201811 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? how's you say that? < 1256201812 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256201814 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1256201825 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the language should < 1256201838 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I car box put < 1256201856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I put the car in a box or the box in the car? also, I guess I forgot the "in" < 1256201864 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I car in-box put? < 1256201866 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256201867 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as in you have to differentiate it at least by the order < 1256201883 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! differentiating by order is hardly intuitive! < 1256201894 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer to use affixes < 1256201914 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chinese would be "I at-box's inside put car" < 1256201916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! should i sleep < 1256201919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are the voice fo reason < 1256201921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of < 1256201925 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(say yes, oerjan) < 1256201937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes. otherwise you'll eventually go insane. < 1256201937 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, oerjan is the voice fo' reason < 1256201947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: go? < 1256201956 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(damn, ehird! you forgot to place a timelimit in your question!) < 1256201979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really know go, never played it. read a little bit about it though. < 1256201979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: what < 1256202002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh fuck you i'm tired i don't have the brain space for the, the jokes and the... so why the fuck am i asking you < 1256202005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, good question ehird! < 1256202013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: SLEEP < 1256202016 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you should have asked something like "should I go to sleep soon, within the next hour?) < 1256202020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why! < 1256202024 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLEEP < 1256202039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: GO STICK YOUR HEAD IN AN EXHAUST PIPE < 1256202040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1256202041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1256202042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: because group pressure < 1256202055 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan-for-unknown-reasons demands ehird to sleep < 1256202056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but I haven't done a gateway drug yet! < 1256202065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not ready to give into such hardcore peer pressure as sleeping, man < 1256202066 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like "wo3 dao4 he2zi-li na2zou3 che1" < 1256202071 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1256202077 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the numbers? < 1256202082 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tones < 1256202086 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1256202093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1t'5 1014lly 1337 < 1256202096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rthyjukl;' < 1256202115 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, that's the problem when the ratio of phoneme to grapheme is not 1:1 < 1256202127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why sleep < 1256202134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me oh fucking hell it's that time < 1256202138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1256202143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably should sleep! shouldn't i < 1256202145 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dao4 is not pronounced the same way as dao3 (and has a different meaning ofc) < 1256202163 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're relegated to using suprasegmental notes to indicate the correct phoneme, and therefore to indicate the correct concept < 1256202164 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: which is why I add tone numbers < 1256202181 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like I use consonants and vowels < 1256202190 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but in writing chinese, the tones are not implicit in the grapheme used, right? < 1256202204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suprasegmental < 1256202205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best word ever < 1256202207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from sleep < 1256202208 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they are < 1256202210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep is a good word < 1256202218 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one grapheme can represent a multitude of phonemes, right? < 1256202233 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like "suprasegmental", ehird < 1256202238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: don't think too much. follow your heart. then sleep. < 1256202238 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one grapheme usually represents 1 morpheme and 1 syllable < 1256202246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: aummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmsdfghjkl; < 1256202254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? I heard differently, madbrain...hmmmm < 1256202263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if sleeping is like...dying...and reincarnation...man...duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude < 1256202265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1256202267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I should sleep1 < 1256202269 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie there are about 5000 morphemes in mandarin, but about 1200 different syllables < 1256202275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly i should stop doing 1 when want ! < 1256202281 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sounds bad madbrain < 1256202283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff yeah okay sorta thing < 1256202292 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually there are lots of homophones < 1256202303 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie graphemes have more info than phonemes < 1256202332 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more info? impossibleh! < 1256202339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :republiphone party < 1256202345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'rea ll homophones and shit < 1256202347 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is because the number of different syllables has gone down in mandarin, ie some syllables merged < 1256202347 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :telecrat party < 1256202348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i really, really need sleep < 1256202352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm practically incoherent < 1256202355 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256202371 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what about the graphemes, madbrain? < 1256202378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THOSE GRAHPHEMES HUH < 1256202380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: *practically* ? < 1256202382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's UP with them < 1256202385 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh-huh < 1256202393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well it's like a theory of incoherency you understand < 1256202394 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :characters are about equivalent to morphemes in chinese < 1256202395 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, grapheme food, what's up with that? < 1256202397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :appleid in practice < 1256202400 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1256202402 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie 1 syllable with 1 meaning < 1256202405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so,.. it's practically! < 1256202412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yeah, what is UP with it < 1256202428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1256202430 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, I just finally got the joke! holy shit I'm an idiot < 1256202430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't actually know < 1256202434 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up < 1256202435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is up with it < 1256202435 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UP < 1256202439 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uP < 1256202441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1256202441 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a too practical system because 5000 morhpemes = 5000 characters to learn :( < 1256202443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never even... < 1256202446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never even got that < 1256202450 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, man < 1256202452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was just.. .shit < 1256202454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually < 1256202456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joke? < 1256202466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the punchline, intentional, i mean, is that the thing, that people do it for < 1256202467 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Airplane food...what is UP with that?" < 1256202468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1256202471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256202473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know < 1256202474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1256202476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the actual- < 1256202476 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know! I don't know! < 1256202480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1256202480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to sleep < 1256202480 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that it? < 1256202482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this, has shaken my world < 1256202483 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy-- < 1256202485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T KNOW < 1256202487 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has! < 1256202488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ < 1256202489 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256202491 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh ahhhhh < 1256202497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM FREAKING OUT < 1256202503 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1256202510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS IMPORTANT < 1256202510 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, do you know? < 1256202517 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about what < 1256202520 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU HAVE A BRAIN MADBRAIN USE IT < 1256202522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what is UP with airline food" < 1256202523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it < 1256202524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it < 1256202525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up < 1256202526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1256202527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sky < 1256202528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blue < 1256202529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :airplanes < 1256202533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that, the joke < 1256202533 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1256202535 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the punny punchline? < 1256202537 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1256202539 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the PUNchline? < 1256202541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what we would like to know < 1256202552 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to know < 1256202555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are waiting on you madbrain < 1256202557 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does...does google know? < 1256202559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TELL US < 1256202563 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I ask google? < 1256202565 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah I got it < 1256202569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T KNOW how could we even ask it < 1256202581 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOGLE WHAT IS UP WITH THE AIRPLANE FOOD JOKE < 1256202582 0 :jix!n=jix@141.83.65.129 JOIN :#esoteric < 1256202588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i, the googles aren't helping < 1256202589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1256202593 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god! I think I made another one! oh, shits! < 1256202596 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1256202598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wait, wait, CALM DOWN i think < 1256202605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: the joke that is commonly done is < 1256202609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" what is the deal with airline food? " < 1256202611 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, what is up with the airplane joke? < 1256202614 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256202617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now unless it refers to a wonderful airline's GREAT DEALS < 1256202619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in VALUE FOR MONEY < 1256202621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are save < 1256202622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe < 1256202623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1256202624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing missed < 1256202624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, damn, that's nothing to phone home about < 1256202625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calm down < 1256202625 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ryanair < 1256202627 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1256202630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: ABSOLUTELY < 1256202634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point i am starting to think you should _all_ sleep < 1256202639 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256202639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should do an ad campaign! < 1256202642 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am glad for America adn Humanity adn Us adn Them < 1256202645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What's the DEAL with airline food?" < 1256202650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The DEAL... is with Ryanair!" < 1256202655 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1256202660 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok stop < 1256202660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Our new Premium flights now include FOOD!" < 1256202660 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs work < 1256202665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food! that you can put in your mouth! < 1256202668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DIGEST < 1256202674 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh madbrain I have forgotten our subject! < 1256202674 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1256202689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO WORLd < 1256202692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WORLD < 1256202711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if your stomach is tough enough < 1256202717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOOD < 1256202722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DIGEST IT WITH YOUR... I DON'T KNOW, INTESTINES < 1256202726 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! no food for a strong stomach, you! < 1256202730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intestines are very clever they do all sorts of things < 1256202736 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1256202737 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: so yeah I think you should have latin alphabet < 1256202752 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, does, multi-functionality necessarily indicated cleverness? < 1256202755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intestines are turing-complete! too bad they can only do shit. < 1256202759 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a latin alphabet? < 1256202762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: you use such big words < 1256202765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am no longer "with you" < 1256202785 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin alphabet (abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz) can notate, like, any language < 1256202792 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's that? the structure of each grapheme does not indicate the syntax of the concept they relate! < 1256202797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can binary alphabet (01) < 1256202798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what's up with all this cleverity < 1256202801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S MAGIC < 1256202802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ehird! < 1256202812 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resolution is no insurmoutable barrier! < 1256202813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MA-HA-HA-HA-hahahaha-gic! < 1256202816 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, any spoken language < 1256202823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep i am talk via 1x1 1-bit display < 1256202827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is very high quality single pixel < 1256202828 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO! < 1256202831 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not binary < 1256202834 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a new base < 1256202836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1256202838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.4 < 1256202840 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a negative imaginary number < 1256202845 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT WORKS < 1256202848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all your b *hit by falling anvil* < 1256202857 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, oerjan < 1256202863 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer, oerjan < 1256202863 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because any spoken language eventually breaks down to N vowels an M consonants (and O lengths/tones/accents/etc..) < 1256202875 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it, madbrain? < 1256202899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BYE SLEEP TIME!!! < 1256202901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1256202902 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if a triple syllable was an individual morpheme? < 1256202922 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yeah, I do understand the limitations of the human vocal system < 1256202924 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like "banana" for instance? < 1256202931 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! ha < 1256202933 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and! and! < 1256202945 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the alphabet! would be so different! < 1256202946 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, well, speech does not delimit that morpheme < 1256202964 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, banana would be right next to gahnosee! < 1256202976 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if speech doesn't delimit it, why would you have to delimit it in writing < 1256202982 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so so you don't confuse closely categorized concepts! < 1256203011 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but each of those triple-syllable morphemes would have its own grapheme! < 1256203017 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1256203022 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, that doesn't work at all! < 1256203029 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........... < 1256203032 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256203043 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird's...insanity infected me for a bit < 1256203053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does that. < 1256203079 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanna talk about my game...:( < 1256203096 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you made a language where each morpheme is 1 syllable, then you can guess where each morpheme start and ends even with latin alphabet < 1256203099 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, we were discussing a characteristica universalis! < 1256203111 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, true < 1256203111 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1256203115 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1256203166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LR(0) human languages! < 1256203173 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1256203176 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the vowels used in each morpheme would be the same? so a fragment of ...boonoosee... could not be confused for ...booneesee... < 1256203193 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the first is 1, (1,1,2,) 2,2 < 1256203202 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: but then you'd have a different problem < 1256203207 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the second is 1,1 (1,2,2) 2 < 1256203211 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? what's that? < 1256203237 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that it's hard to make 1000+ different syllables without at least a consonant, a vowel, and something else (such as another consnonant) < 1256203250 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256203276 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages do keep each vowel more or less intact though so boonoosee vs booneesee would remain different < 1256203276 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boonookoo, beeneekee, bahnahkah... < 1256203288 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like chinese for instance < 1256203313 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, do you want chinese to be the universal language? you can say it if you want, I will not get angry < 1256203328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in mandarin iirc ng can only occur at the end and most everything else at the beginning (ignoring n), so if you divided the consonant set in two... < 1256203356 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256203364 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you do mergers like bunuxi with bunixi in chinese, you generate a gazillion homophones < 1256203375 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256203401 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but there is no vowel harmony < 1256203415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want vowel harmony too now? < 1256203422 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1256203454 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, oranjer was suggesting something like vowel harmony and I said that it would lower the phonological content too much < 1256203460 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1256203523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up on the multi-syllable morpheme idea. I apologize for any inconveniences or troubles my extended confusion has caused our audience, and our respective selves. < 1256203528 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranjer: well, I think the grammar and morphology of chinese might be a good inspiration yes < 1256203542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, perhaps < 1256203545 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not the writing system or phonetic system :D < 1256203548 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the grapheme! < 1256203551 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, yeah < 1256203572 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but you can have multiple syllable morphemes too < 1256203578 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1256203592 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in an ontological language < 1256203601 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1256203607 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to be able to delimit them < 1256203622 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a separate sound? < 1256203628 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie no "hi-no" vs "hino" ambiguity < 1256203636 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1256203643 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? < 1256203667 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean that hi and no, vs hino, are all separate morphemes? < 1256203683 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can't have a "hi", a "no" and a "hino" morpheme without running the risk of causing a homophone < 1256203707 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in practice that risk is quite low which is why most languages do have multiple syllable morphemes < 1256203723 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1256203728 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, you're right, they do < 1256203734 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy vey < 1256203773 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, to make a good ontological language, you have to learn more about natural languages < 1256203780 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! yeah < 1256203783 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1256203800 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we put our universal language ruminations to rest? < 1256203810 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, so we can sleep on it < 1256203818 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh sleep is good < 1256203824 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *is* the most integral part of creativity < 1256203832 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1256203833 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1256203837 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256203858 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh...okay < 1256203861 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here? < 1256203865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boo! < 1256203869 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHHHH < 1256203880 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are our names so alike? < 1256203883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1256203884 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get yours? < 1256203905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in my case it _is_ my name, slightly mangled to fit in the english alphabet < 1256203915 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! awesomebeans < 1256203931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1256203937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you kids talking about natural languages? < 1256203944 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were, before < 1256203950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *MWAHAHAHA* < 1256203958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU ARE TOO LATE < 1256203958 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, we were talking about constructing an artificial language < 1256203978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1256203981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what end < 1256203982 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my name is but a portmanteau of my favorite color and the first syllable of my actual name < 1256203990 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for universal communication < 1256203992 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numb nuts < 1256203996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256203996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense < 1256204000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: to take over the world, of course. what other end is there? < 1256204008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point oerjan! < 1256204016 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, oerjan, but that's not the sole purpose < 1256204025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by universal communication < 1256204059 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically wish to create a language that can model, create, and compare even the most disparate of the human disciplines < 1256204076 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, your "mathematics" ain't universal enough < 1256204091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural language does this pretty well enough as it is. < 1256204102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by natural language i mean any given language. < 1256204124 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! it's hardly efficient < 1256204134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually its quite efficient < 1256204142 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's hardly intuitive enough to be understand within the hour by any sentient creature < 1256204162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no language can be learned within an hour. < 1256204165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not by humans. < 1256204165 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the semantics hardly match the syntax! < 1256204169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: let me warn you that augur is studying linguistics < 1256204172 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a universal language should be < 1256204175 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooohhh < 1256204178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is true oranjer < 1256204182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am infact a professional linguist < 1256204185 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then....augur is a lost cause, then :( < 1256204187 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256204197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one of, if not the top theoretical departments on the planet. < 1256204202 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256204204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruined by the establishment :D < 1256204211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfft < 1256204217 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! *pbbbbt!* < 1256204223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this department makes it routine to challenge conventional ideas < 1256204240 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that is the way to represent eh raspberry) < 1256204240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1256204248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural language is not inefficient < 1256204252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is incredibly efficient < 1256204257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh???? < 1256204266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :furthermore, the syntax does not need to look precisely like the semantics < 1256204271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for if it did it would become less efficient < 1256204281 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I meant the other way around! < 1256204282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does reflect the semantics to a large degree < 1256204300 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what's your definition of semantics and syntax? the *official* definitions? < 1256204322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax is all the formal structural aspects of linguistic expressions < 1256204346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broadly construed to include morphology but not so broad as to include the phonological aspects < 1256204347 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh hmmm < 1256204366 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops! I guess I have been using the word the wrong way all along! oops! < 1256204368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics is in my usage an internalist formal system of conceptualization. < 1256204377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you mean by syntax < 1256204430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding language efficiency < 1256204433 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, by syntax, the underlying relations between the concepts represented by the semantics, the words themselves < 1256204439 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops! < 1256204456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the conditions in which it must be used, the things you find inefficient, like redundancy, etc. are actually added for reliability < 1256204477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that signal degradation != meaning degradation < 1256204479 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I never said redundancy was inefficient! < 1256204489 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand it's necessity < 1256204494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there is little else that could be said to be inefficient about language < 1256204508 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1256204522 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that...dammit < 1256204532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well consider the situation wherein you reflect a semantics precisely < 1256204532 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah-ha! < 1256204537 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1256204551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lets say, for the sake of convenience, that we have a tarskian logic rather than anything as complicated as a lambda calculus < 1256204560 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1256204637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sentence "the dog bit the man that the woman knows" would become something roughly like BIT(x,y) & DOG(x) & MAN(y) & KNOW(z,y) & WOMAN(z) < 1256204656 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1256204659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe just Bxy & Dx & My & Kzy & Wz < 1256204667 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh-huh < 1256204670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, there's a lot of redundancy of variables here < 1256204681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all those x's and y's and x'z duplicated like that < 1256204695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural language tends to not do this < 1256204709 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice in the english, theres only one unit that refers to the woman, one that refers to the man, one to the dog < 1256204713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not two or three < 1256204716 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true..but each time they are mentioned, they are describing a separate relation about that concept < 1256204718 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huhhhh < 1256204719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is disturbed that his eyes seem to confuse Oranjer's nick with Gregor
< 1256204721 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1256204732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, they're in different relations < 1256204733 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1256204741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the HIERARCHICAL relationships < 1256204744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely < 1256204764 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[the_dog [bit [the_man [that the_woman [knows]]]]] < 1256204771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can define certain conventions < 1256204779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wherein, for instance < 1256204779 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you have convinced me that such redundancies to indicate popping and pushing would be strictly necessary in a universal language < 1256204786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1256204820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might take a syntactic form [the_dog [bit [the_man [that the_woman [knows the_man]]]]] and delete this lower copy of the man just in case it refers to the same man as the higher version < 1256204825 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking about such stacking earlier < 1256204837 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1256204857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things could get much more complicated very quickly < 1256204870 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it's stacking < 1256204873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since the normal semantic representations of sentences are tremendously complicated < 1256204881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know what you mean by "stacking" < 1256204902 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean what you mean when you speak of nested hierarchies < 1256204923 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wherein the object of a relation is itself a relation, etc. < 1256204929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats just tree structured linguistic expressions < 1256204937 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256204957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most versions of semantics that have any worth to them, relations arent the arguments of other relations < 1256204964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of the relation can be < 1256204968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the relation itself is not < 1256204980 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1256204989 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no problem with such a thing < 1256204995 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think that..." < 1256204999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in a properly typed logic, relations are not objects of the system < 1256205004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sure, it happens in natural language < 1256205020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why SOME very important logics have such abilities < 1256205037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as montague's intensional logic < 1256205067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho its arguable that such systems are completely unnecessary < 1256205120 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh-huh < 1256205151 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hey, I hate do this, really, I know it looks suspicious and all, but I was just about to go to sleep when you came on < 1256205157 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now, I must go < 1256205187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1256205195 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya later, augur, oerjan, everyone else! < 1256205205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good bye my ignorant friend < 1256205207 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thanks, augur < 1256205208 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256205212 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1256205213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so oerjan! < 1256205239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1256205241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it goin < 1256205277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing much < 1256205287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna know some cool stuff about language? :x < 1256205292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo < 1256205299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its interesting! < 1256205311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like learning about how natural language is esoteric! < 1256205324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus provides ideas about making even more esoteric constructed languages! < 1256205330 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so check it out < 1256205364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose your semantics had the types T, U, V, ... < 1256205374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some relations over these times < 1256205394 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say R is T -> U -> V < 1256205408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps more accurately, T -> U -> Bool < 1256205438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all relations looking like that; two args go to bool) < 1256205490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your syntax apparently cannot have phrases that directly include other phrases, IF... < 1256205530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the arguments/referents of those phrases are of types T, U such that there is no relationship of type T -> U -> Bool or U -> T -> Bool < 1256205588 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also seems to lead inexorably to the emergence of certain hierarchies in the syntax that seemingly have no motivation < 1256205656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tis interesting! < 1256205759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres no apriori reason why this should be true < 1256205763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems to be < 1256205802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, even if the type system has a relation of the requisite sort, the semantics must contain such a relation connecting the relevant items < 1256205812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely one relation < 1256205837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its highly constrained < 1256205848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could imagine that there are ways to change those constraints < 1256205857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the result is not a naturally acquirable human language < 1256205874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1256205976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also imagine the same constraints but with a different semantics < 1256206002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you get different relations and thus different possible grammars < 1256206061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance normally things like tense and modality are structurally higher than things like core verbal meaning components < 1256206083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why? perhaps you might have a languge in which tense and modality are lower in the structure < 1256206102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you might get very weird things out of that < 1256206309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, later < 1256206314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye :| < 1256206330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"see ya" < 1256209290 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1256209821 0 :nooga!n=nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1256210005 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone played with llvm-as? < 1256210345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Played with"? I've used it < 1256211074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But have you PLAYED with it? Have you given it enough LOVE? Have you treated it as a PERSON? < 1256211086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I can't say that I have. < 1256211093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! You just USE it, like it's a piece of code with no FEELINGS! < 1256211104 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much, yep. < 1256211113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's fair. < 1256211118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1256213749 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-76-35.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1256215552 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1256215575 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another reason for i hate C++: there is no way to specify unescaped string literals < 1256215637 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus my regexp engine needs something like that: regex_compile("blah\\."); instead of "blah\." < 1256215654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly that hate is at the C preprocessor, but yeah. < 1256215688 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ruby i've got "" vs '' and it's okay < 1256215710 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256215829 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand i must admit that C++'s exceptions are useful < 1256215911 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pumping errors up by hand from a bunch of parser functions that call themselves sucks < 1256217652 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1256218565 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1256219271 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1256219334 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1256219827 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1256219894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1256220102 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais532 < 1256220103 0 :ais532!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1256225402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1256226591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1256227623 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1256227888 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1256228266 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1256228344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : another reason for i hate C++: there is no way to specify unescaped string literals <-- on the bright side, that is also a missing feature of haskell < 1256229060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now where is that rascal AnMaster < 1256229075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1256229079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit! < 1256229091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have not spoken in over 1 day < 1256229101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1256229110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i assumed you were not here < 1256229128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: fiendish, obi-wan :D < 1256229208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and for iwc with the recent mythbusters arc, this leaves me confused which universe the joneses actually _are_ in... < 1256230762 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256233975 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unescaped = init . tail . show < 1256234026 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \n; a bell is \a." < 1256234382 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256234643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \n; a bell is \a." < 1256234671 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A newline is \n; a bell is \a. < 1256234726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I foresee no problem with that method. < 1256235056 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1256235189 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1256236006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1256237113 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daudiobooks&field-keywords=kant .. I didn't know they had CDs back then < 1256237166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's categorically a disk < 1256237277 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256237501 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do foresee a problem with that method. < 1256237527 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \10; a bell is \7." < 1256237529 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A newline is \n; a bell is \a. < 1256237591 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "\Let\'s \jus\t p\ut \bac\ksl\ash\es \in \ran\dom\ pl\ace\s." < 1256237613 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell EgoBot, does your silence mean that my string has a lexical error? < 1256237624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not easily recognize sarcasm memes, i take < 1256237643 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a meme? < 1256237669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least i think i saw it in dilbert < 1256237685 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1256237768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed lexical errors should be possible < 1256237806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "\ \etc. \ \etc." < 1256237808 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. etc. < 1256237831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no that was not an attempt at a lexical error) < 1256237984 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why SHOULD they teach logic in school? < 1256238044 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256238088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logic is fundamental to understanding math, science, and debate. < 1256238114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and philosophy. < 1256238115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it though? < 1256238163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, how much math do you know? < 1256238173 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of it ! < 1256238185 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to answer that really < 1256238186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to demonstrate? < 1256238223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A claim that logic is not fundamental to understanding math can, insofar as I can tell, only be born out by ignorance regarding what math actually *is*. < 1256238235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ok < 1256238260 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets not talk about it then < 1256238279 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you did know how to answer that, how would you answer it? < 1256238290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for debate, it is important to know enough logic to detect when others are _not_ arguing sensibly < 1256238298 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal how could I possibly answer your question? :P < 1256238314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debate is almost entirely composed of logic. Informal logic, mind, but still. < 1256238344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, logic and logical fallacies)O < 1256238349 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda lose the will to discuss something when people start telling me it's ignorance < 1256238382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well math at higher levels is based on proof, and proof is logic < 1256238409 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you knew the answer to your rhetorical question, what would it be? < 1256238421 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If these questions weren't positively silly, how would you answer them? < 1256238425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal stop paradoxing me!!! < 1256238436 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it weren't a paradox... oh, never mind. < 1256238479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "At higher levels"? I'd almost hesitate to call it math before you start discussing proofs and logic. < 1256238507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and science is much about testing hypothesis - and to test hypotheses you need to be able to reason about their consequences, thus logic < 1256238541 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eliezer Yudkowsky would say that rationality should be taught in school! < 1256238565 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256238573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well yeah but it is a bit insulting to people who can do numbers well but never get that far... < 1256238626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But computation != math... < 1256238659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and programming requires logic too - to find bugs you have to reason about what the program should do and what it actually does... < 1256239082 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1256239434 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-20-18.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1256240773 0 :Oranjer!n=Owner@adsl-243-217-96.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256242104 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs51/f/2009/265/c/0/Sauna_Time_by_humon.jpg < 1256242141 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, what? is the lesson Finland's an asshole? < 1256242157 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do Finnish sauna's really do that? < 1256242177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, all of that is normal. :-) < 1256242182 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1256242304 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of personifications of abstract, non-human concepts < 1256242356 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend to draw several such things < 1256242386 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone I know wishes to write a story about such embodiments of facets of reality < 1256242415 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone else I know wishes to make a game revolving around such anthropomorphisms < 1256242424 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256242470 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1256242490 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1256242496 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone got a concept for me to draw? < 1256242525 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer when you learn about a new thing then it appears everywhere < 1256242545 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, it /appears/ to appear everywhere, yes < 1256242568 0 :jix!n=jix@g224097066.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1256242575 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a common result of a human having a limited amount of memory, and of having what is called a "recency bias" < 1256242594 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1256242597 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1256242614 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where, obviously enough, humans remember the last thing that happened more than those that came before < 1256242617 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1256242639 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you wish me to draw the concept of "when you learn about a new thing then it appears everywhere"? < 1256242657 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1256242669 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm okay < 1256242672 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1256242680 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has stumped me < 1256242685 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen GregorRs programming languages? < 1256242694 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personifications < 1256242703 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, no! < 1256242709 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about? < 1256242714 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linkies please? < 1256242722 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there isn't a link < 1256242778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK maybe? < 1256242807 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's really considered polite to whack *others* with a vihta/vasta/is-there-an-English-name-for-it; certainly applying it to yourself is a very common sauna behaviour though. < 1256242826 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1256242836 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I asked if Finland is an asshole < 1256242873 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, fax < 1256242879 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file didn't take, I think < 1256242882 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you send it again? < 1256242897 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1256242975 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1256242982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1256242987 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to keep breaking down right when it starts, sorry < 1256243020 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh what's up with this connection you say between these esoteric languages and personifications? < 1256243196 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax? < 1256243305 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am waiting for transfer to begin < 1256243316 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..aaaand it disappeared < 1256243420 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have discovered the problem < 1256243431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cancels the file transfer < 1256243444 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you just email it to me? < 1256243790 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, exactly! < 1256243801 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personifications of programming languages! yes! < 1256243804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan == Oranjer? < 1256243812 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO, AnMaster < 1256243815 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256243815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1256243819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who then < 1256243823 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one more "r" < 1256243824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone new here? < 1256243827 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep! < 1256243836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your nick is too confusing < 1256243838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1256243872 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1256243909 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love it so much lol < 1256243951 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :love what? < 1256245505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer didn't you get it? < 1256245510 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1256245515 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said I did, did I not? < 1256245527 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned that that was exactly what I was talking about < 1256245549 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personifications, embodiments, avatars, anthropomorphisms, etc. of abstract concepts < 1256246084 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1256246687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1256246697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1256246703 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ais523!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1256246718 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256246722 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( ) < 1256246734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, to avoid confusion (or not) oerjan != Oranjer < 1256246741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just confusingly similar < 1256246743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know < 1256246746 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256246748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1256246750 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1256246751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I met Oranjer outside #esoteric first < 1256246755 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1256246761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come every nomicer seems to end up here? < 1256246768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also apparently Gregor != Oranjer < 1256246774 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was recommended here < 1256246780 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not this Gregor < 1256246785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nomics are quite awesome? < 1256246791 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1256246793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As are esolangs? < 1256246809 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1256247380 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1256247383 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256247847 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1256247981 0 :jix!n=jix@g224097066.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1256248659 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256251506 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256251523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1256251604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there? About that OpenTTD adder. What if you had used a faster type of train? And possibly faster railway too (like maglev) < 1256251644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and did you use path based signaling or just pre-signals/normal ones < 1256251660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it'd be faster by a constant factor. < 1256251669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? < 1256251686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah *constant factor* < 1256251687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a faster train and a faster railway. < 1256251690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it as "constant" first < 1256251695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a bit confusing < 1256251767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about the path based signal-stuff? < 1256251830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And path-based signaling wasn't in OpenTTD way back when I did that stuff. I had to use a SVN checkout even to get the "new pathfinding" (NPF) stuff, which was quite some time ago, since they already have made a third "new" pathfinding (YAPF) thing. < 1256251865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latest release at that time was 0.4.0.1. < 1256251879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256251887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so is that likely to work on modern openttd? < 1256251897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what was the url now again < 1256251909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zem.fi/ and the link's on the front page. < 1256251919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :download on page? < 1256251932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the save game or whatever < 1256251941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I ever got save games uploaded anywhere, actually. < 1256251947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1256251953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I presume you lost them? < 1256251963 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not... necessarily. But it is possible. < 1256251971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, care to look? < 1256251999 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only png files in the web-directory, at least. Let's check other places. < 1256252024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21065 2005-10-21 19:49 home/fis/.openttd/save/gate.sav < 1256252025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21578 2005-10-21 22:17 home/fis/.openttd/save/gatemap.sav < 1256252025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21198 2005-10-23 13:16 home/fis/.openttd/save/gate20.sav < 1256252025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 32124 2005-10-23 17:00 home/fis/.openttd/save/4adder.sav < 1256252027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks promising. < 1256252039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1256252080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extricating; will take a while to gunzip all that stuff. < 1256252131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just extract the relevant files? < 1256252150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pretty sure tar supports that) < 1256252155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a .tar.gz; it will necessarily have to gzip everything to *find* the relevant files. < 1256252178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1256252185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did extract only those, but since there's no tar-index-outside-the-gzip-stream, it can't really take any shortcuts. < 1256252194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1256252219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for fizzie to upload it
< 1256252229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure which file is which, but at least http://zem.fi/~fis/4adder.sav is the most complicated four-adder configuration. < 1256252246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256252259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 403 < 1256252273 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, forgot to mount my public_html directory. < 1256252287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to mount it? *blink* < 1256252288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1256252293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuse sshfs? < 1256252321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; it's physically on the web server, I just mount it to ~/www/ on this desktop to share things. < 1256252323 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, now it's there. < 1256252343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not the other files? < 1256252365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what to share. I should run openttd and check. < 1256252371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1256252417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's "logic {1,2,3,4}.sav" and a "logic broken.sav" and "2logic, fixed.sav" and I don't quite know what the names mean. The one-track logic part is not especially interesting, since it's just so fiddly with the clocking. < 1256252466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to find the messy nor gate and the generic two-input logic gate, though. < 1256252593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have OpenTTD 0.7.3 installed here, that's pretty recent. < 1256252611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any easy way to remove the trains and then replace them there? I mean, to use the "upgrade track" thingy, the trains must be removed :/ < 1256252650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I don't really know. I seem to think there was some sort of trick to upgrading trains without having to manually copy the rulesets. < 1256252674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes but also the trains are *everywhere* < 1256252681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and moving them all to depots is ugh < 1256252720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can send them into depots from the train list. < 1256252764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that safe to keep the state? Hm < 1256252795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, will things break when you send them out again < 1256252834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They shouldn't, though I'm not sure what those "input trains" at the A0 .. B3 labels will do. < 1256252846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nor am I < 1256252852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't have any depots to go to, so I would hope they don't start wandering around. < 1256252865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you could split them up into another list < 1256252874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess so. < 1256252894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual per-gate trains should be safe to send to depots, since they do that all the time by itself too. < 1256252907 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can also wait until I find the single gate; it's smaller to play with. < 1256252938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nor gate is at http://zem.fi/~fis/nor.sav -- it seems to complain quite a lot about trains having too few orders, but other than that I think it still works. < 1256252970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh the messages about too few orders < 1256252988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably disable those from the message settings. < 1256253012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, prettu sure it is a openttd.conf thingy < 1256253013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/gate.sav is the generic gate (configured as nand) I think I used to copy all over the map. < 1256253060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be that "Advice / information on company's vehicles" setting, but I guess that covers more. < 1256253096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw that huge image can be shrunken with several hundred kb at least < 1256253106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3319743 3201065 96% ttd_4adder.png < 1256253106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3319743 3201065 96% < 1256253113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is just advpng -z4 < 1256253121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for optipng and advdef
< 1256253128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I don't really care, though. :p < 1256253147 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1256253400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw you can't make those trains actually reach a depot < 1256253415 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which trains? < 1256253422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the gates ones < 1256253438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just go back and forth between a pair of signals < 1256253440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them < 1256253455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(different pairs though) < 1256253507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems they can't find a route, any of them < 1256253508 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right; you'll probably have to clear the inputs (move the A0 .. B3 trains to the "neutral" area so that they don't occupy either the 0 or 1 track) to get the gate-trains to depots. < 1256253540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where is the neutral area? < 1256253554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the pointy ends? < 1256253569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. The place where they don't occupy either one of the outgoing tracks. < 1256253590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm no waypoints set there. Could move signals though < 1256253630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't the trains just start moving blindly if you release them? You can reverse them manually to move them to the right direction. < 1256253651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, you could stick depots into the pointy ends, then you'd get it working by doing a global send-all-to-depots thing. < 1256253652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1256253711 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gate trains won't move until the inputs change, to make sure that when the input "signal" is stable, they stay in the track area that's responsible for generating the output signals. < 1256253890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nor gate's real messy, but the switchable generic two-input gate has a reasonably clear and simple structure; you have the gate-train branching first left/right depending on whether the A0 or A1 track is occupied, then doing another such branching based on B0/B1; then it ends up in a track segment that's connected to the output switchboard (so you can select which output signal is generated by any Ax, Bx pair), and finally the corresponding occupied track < 1256253890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s are connected so that it can't move until that input track clears. < 1256253898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1256253928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about nor then? < 1256253967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a mess, I have no idea how it works. < 1256253970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does the bridge type matter btw? < 1256254004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, nothing goes over the bridges anyway (except signals). < 1256254049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, will a dual length train mess up anything? < 1256254081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, at least in the generic gate there's quite a lot of space wasted. < 1256254140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you have to upgrade one by one, though orders are kept < 1256254144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I seem to have sort-of documented how the nor gate works on that web page; it seems to be a bit of a simplification since when A=1, (A nor B) is always 1 too, and so the gate train doesn't need to make that many decisions. < 1256254192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1256254206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose you can use the autoreplace feature to upgrade trains? < 1256254226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really looked at these newfangled things. < 1256254244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can < 1256254263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why then does the Replacing Vehicles wiki-page say "Naturally it is not possible to upgrade between different types of train because the train would need to be able to enter a depot and leave as a new type"? < 1256254280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you can, except when you upgrade rail type < 1256254286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like railway -> maglev < 1256254290 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It means you can't go from monorail to maglev, for instance < 1256254300 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since a monorail depot is not a maglev depot < 1256254304 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, well, that's what I meant by "upgrade". < 1256254304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is what we are discussing here < 1256254314 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1256254318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it might not be standard terminology. < 1256254326 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see that in about 5 lines of context so I assumed generic upgrading < 1256254344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: AnMaster wants faster trains so my logic gates would work faster. :p < 1256254365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1256254436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to think of a suitable analogue here, something about improving inherently useless things to be "better" but still useless, but can't come up with anything right now. < 1256254465 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gone for a while now.) < 1256254586 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1256254617 0 :Oranjer!n=Owner@adsl-243-217-96.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1256254712 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1256254728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you said they didn't go over bridges? they do when neutral < 1256254743 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh what < 1256254774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ < 1256254813 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1256254835 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of some sorta logical psychogeography < 1256254859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"psychogeography"? < 1256254867 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1256254886 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography < 1256254900 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with logic! < 1256255761 0 :FireFly[DS]!n=nds@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1256255848 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, FireFly[DS] < 1256255864 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1256255868 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hola < 1256255893 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up? < 1256255893 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I should prolly sleep < 1256255893 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? what time is it there? < 1256255901 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:57 < 1256255905 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256255909 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1256255914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night too < 1256255924 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I'm usually up 'til 4 in the morning anyway < 1256255947 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 7 in the evening here, EST! whoo! < 1256255955 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :School starts at 8:10 tomorrow < 1256255964 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1256255965 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1256255983 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got 6 hours of sleep, right?