00:07:53 * Sgeo tries Avidemux 00:08:05 * Sgeo needs a video editor, and a friend also needs a video editor 00:14:35 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 00:29:41 speaking of editors 00:29:49 anyone tried composing trance? 00:30:27 lament: first, learn how to compose a bar of trance 00:30:34 second, congratulations! 00:30:48 i mean 00:30:55 what tools are there? 00:31:12 The general electronic music and music-in-general tools, I would imagine. 00:31:15 Also, drugs. 00:32:43 :O 00:32:54 well how does trance make trance? 00:33:05 ehiird: see, the reason you're not helpful is because you actually have no clue about this 00:33:19 That's true. :P 00:33:21 which is why i'm not sure why you're even talking, and which is why i asked if anyone tried composing trance 00:33:42 I've never seen a genre-specific electronic music composition tool, however. 00:33:47 So I would be surprised if trance had one. 00:33:57 well, it makes sense for those to exist 00:34:16 `quote just to exist 00:34:29 No output. 00:34:33 `quote exist 00:34:46 haha 00:34:49 http://normish.org/sgeo/quotes.txt 00:34:51 63| The thing is just to exist 00:35:27 ... 00:35:42 At least it reacted in the same minute 00:37:17 night ↓ 00:37:50 awww 00:37:59 good night AnMaster 00:38:04 -!- sierinjs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:38:07 :O 00:41:08 I've been fiddling a bit with a data-driven trance-composing approach (some NMF sound source separation and a bit of clustering and a bit of grammar induction), but there are no real results yet, and that's probably not exactly what you meant. 00:41:28 :( 00:47:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:48:22 argh where is oerjan when you need him 00:48:26 somewhere else 00:57:34 deep, man. deep. 00:58:49 deep in the atmosphere 00:59:09 what 00:59:21 deep in the antipodean atmo? 01:02:02 well, everywhere on earth is the antipode of somewhere 01:02:08 I know 01:03:00 but we're speaking of deep according to the base at which we begin measuring the depth or shallowness of a statement or thought 01:04:04 _you_ may be 01:04:51 oh 01:05:00 okay, then I shall declare I am 01:06:39 Praeterea censeo ergo sum 01:07:24 okay 01:08:02 I declare that I am, nice 01:10:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 01:11:53 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:23:10 Mehhhh 01:23:17 what 01:23:20 I need to decide 32-bit vs 64-bit pretty fast. 01:23:24 Oranjer: nothing. 01:23:27 64 01:23:30 DO it 01:24:45 Oranjer: But that leads to higher memory usage and more legacy crap. Plus it uses PAE, which is a dirty hack, to access >4 GiB of RAM (my only reason not to use 32-bit); if I'm in for such a hack, I can just use PAE in 32-bit mode. 01:24:58 32 01:24:59 48-bit gets so little love 01:24:59 DO it 01:25:06 OTOH, it's more "native" on modern processors, and it does remove a little bit of the cruft. It also has more registers. 01:31:06 -!- Pthing has joined. 01:31:27 Oh wow all these new debian packages I keep getting. 01:31:36 * SimonRC does an impression of a package from the "science" section: 01:31:41 Debian: the OS to use if you loooooooooooooooooooooooove new packages! 01:31:41 libsmbxfrg - Redaltion of cross-FRGs to identify hectodyre sub-bindings 01:31:47 SMBxFRG is a library for the hyperboline redaltion of semi-morphic-biased cross-FRGs. The hyperboline method is a AFL-based alternative to the more common centrate methodology of retrograde semi-gerentic FRG analysis, providing superior handling of candid-sequence ITF markov meshes, and capable of detecting beta-cyclomatic metrisation quotendates within IETA-chordic sub-hectodyres of the first, second, or fourth orders. The fixed points of the FRG-rectifica 01:31:54 This package contains the Python bindings to the library. 01:32:02 SimonRC: But what about the flux capacitors? 01:32:08 ha 01:32:27 Seriously, you have to wonder why the Debian folks haven't realised that having one huge monolithic repository isn't the solution and specialist third-party repositories are a good thing... 01:32:41 I just ignore the subsections I don't care about 01:33:13 I wish I had somewhere to put this sort of thing 01:33:22 like, a blog 01:33:35 but I come up with it so rarely that it's not worth it 01:33:35 You think the Debian developers would listen? 01:33:45 hm? no 01:33:59 Oh, wait — that package isn't real? 01:34:01 I don't mind the current situation 01:34:05 Aw... you tease. 01:34:07 ehiird: well duh 01:34:17 It's hard to tell. 01:34:27 It got cut off at "FRG-retifica", btw. 01:34:27 although there are some packages that sound like that 01:34:46 "FRG-rectification limits may be expressed as any catroliner polynomial of a JK-reductive D-space. Chordates may be loaded from standard HerACleS format files, version 2.2 or 3.0-3.5." 01:34:50 "This package contains the Python bindings to the library." 01:35:17 * ehiird googles for PAE criticism 01:35:28 Got the last line. 01:35:28 maybe the line "* SimonRC does an impression of a package from the "science" section:" was a bit ambiguous 01:35:40 I thought you were just using an odd use of the word imppresrsion. 01:35:43 *impression 01:37:15 "PAE is a hack to get the OS to address 36 bits of physical memory address space, in order to overcome the 4GB limitation of 32-bit OS." 01:37:15 What a weak argument, considering that 64-bit OSs do it via PAE too. 01:37:22 hm, "minbif" looks interesting 01:37:37 it's a IM-IRC gateway 01:37:49 "IRC-friendly instant messaging client" 01:37:55 Which way? Like bitlbee or the other way? 01:37:57 *or the 01:38:11 IRC to IM. 01:38:16 Meh. 01:38:18 dunno 01:38:27 IM is an inferior interface to IRC; and vice-versa too. 01:38:34 If you really want it, use Bitlbee; at least it's well-known. 01:38:37 I think it lets you see IM as IRC 01:38:45 I don't care the much 01:39:10 Bitlbee does that. 01:39:52 http://www.bitlbee.org/img/screenshot-mscchat.png 01:39:52 now THIS is a good use case 01:40:30 the cat in "lucumo: eek" made me lol 01:41:23 wait what the hell 01:41:30 is that doing what it looks like it is doing 01:41:39 it is a green 01:41:45 :O 01:41:54 awesomes 01:42:01 Wait — PAE requires application support? 01:42:04 What a crock! 01:42:23 ... on one hand, fuck that shit, on the other hand, bleh! 01:46:49 Wait. 01:46:57 a.out almost certainly doesn't support 64-bit. 01:59:02 "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?" -- funroll-loops.info 02:01:20 heh 02:04:38 ... 02:04:43 Even I see the stupidity in that 02:07:31 gren 02:07:40 ehiird: ? 02:07:48 Grenade? 02:07:52 Grenoble? 02:07:56 Grenadine? 02:07:58 Totally 02:08:00 Grendel? 02:08:01 Totallyλ 02:08:06 or Gren out of that book I forgot the name of 02:08:47 Beowulf? 02:08:56 I.. cannot believe I know that 02:09:10 (Grendel) 02:09:45 haha 02:10:44 BTW, when I said Grendel before, I was referring to something else 02:11:24 -!- Kalagar has joined. 02:32:35 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:47:45 * SimonRC goes to bed 02:48:22 good night 02:53:13 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:59:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 03:08:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:29:20 * Warrigal goes off to temporarily disable the connections between his brain and his plexuses. 03:35:51 -!- Kalagar has quit. 04:03:01 wtf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_sex_makespan 04:24:33 -!- Oranjer has joined. 04:27:37 -!- Jaykul has joined. 04:28:09 Heh, have you guys seen this guy looking for an example of a "real world" program written in an esoteric language? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1508581/is-there-any-practical-use-for-an-esoteric-language 04:28:30 ouch 04:29:55 Mental benefits, I'd imagine 04:30:03 Is a practical use 04:30:22 I agree 04:30:33 more than that, though 04:31:00 it also provides *more* examples as to what a programming language *could* be, so you can then decide what it *should* be 04:31:04 right? right? 04:31:13 Well, despite the headline, he's not really looking for a practical esoteric language (that's an oxymoron), but rather for an example of someone writing a practical, real world app in an esoteric language (regardless of whether it was a good idea to use that language ;) ) 04:31:25 we know 04:31:26 ooo! 04:31:35 has anyone made a game in an esoteric language? 04:31:40 or a game making program in one? 04:31:44 Oranjer: Yes; it's called Lost Kingdom. 04:31:48 :O 04:31:53 In Brainfuck. 04:32:03 Also, there's an IRC bot in Befunge. 04:32:12 ha 04:32:20 tell the guy 04:33:10 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt There's the source. 04:33:31 lol 04:33:34 ough 04:33:42 ouch 04:53:04 o.o 04:53:43 :O 04:59:18 let me tell you something interesting about negation in ASL :x 04:59:51 uh okay 05:00:17 no seriously, now I want to know 05:00:24 now that google told me what ASL is 05:00:35 :x 05:00:46 * pikhq probably knows it already. 05:00:49 *crossing arms*? 05:01:00 ok so 05:01:05 :O 05:01:09 AMAZING! 05:01:15 I would have never guessed 05:01:17 ASL has two ways of negating sentences 05:01:23 uh-huh 05:01:33 one is with an overt negation word 05:01:39 lets just call it not 05:01:49 let's not and say we...oh, okay 05:02:41 and the other is with another word, call it NEG which has no overt realization 05:03:03 that is to say 05:03:15 the word is there, but the way to "say" it is by not saying anything 05:03:42 so how does the errr...reader realize it is being negated? 05:03:45 in both cases of negation, you have to use a THIRD "word", call it a scope indicator 05:03:57 that that does nothing more that indicate the scope of the negation 05:04:09 lets denote those by []'s 05:04:15 okay 05:05:24 so an example of this negation stuff might be like so: 05:06:14 John [not] buy house == John is not buying a house 05:06:19 you can also say 05:06:27 John [not buy house] == John is not buying a house 05:06:34 both of these are the same in meaning 05:06:47 okay 05:07:21 but when you use the NEG word 05:07:28 you cannot get this: 05:07:32 John [NEG] buy house 05:07:34 you must get 05:07:39 John [NEG buy house] 05:08:10 where the negation scope marking extends to a small amount of time BEFORE the words "buy house" 05:08:19 okay 05:08:22 as if NEG really is there taking up space but lacking in expression 05:10:10 so, interestingly, when there is an overt negation marker, you can omit the full scope marking, and by default it means it ranges over whatever its directly sister to 05:10:35 okay 05:10:42 if you look at WH questions you get similar things 05:11:02 DEAF PEOPLE ARE FAGS 05:11:16 this one its a little trickier because you have two question morphemes, but neither of them are overt 05:11:51 however one of them causes overt effects, so lets call them Q for the one with no over effects, and q for the one with overt effects 05:11:56 you can get both 05:12:03 who hate john Q 05:12:04 and 05:12:10 hate john q who 05:12:30 where q forces the question word "who" to move to the end of the sentence 05:12:30 what are "WH questions"? 05:12:37 sentences that arent yes/no 05:12:47 ah 05:13:00 so you also have a WH-question scope marker 05:13:02 lets use {} 05:13:06 and you get 05:13:35 {hate john q who}, as well as, hate john {q who} 05:13:43 but with the non-overt Q, you only get 05:13:51 {who hate john Q} 05:13:59 you never get, who hate john {Q} 05:14:09 ir {who} hate john 05:14:12 or* 05:16:09 uh-huh 05:17:15 you get this sort of thing all over the place with other phenomena too 05:17:51 also, get this, instead of using simple pronouns, because ASL is spatial, you just point 05:17:59 but 05:18:22 when you're talking about other people who arent there in the conversation, nor easilly pointed at 05:18:29 you just point in any random direction 05:18:34 ha 05:18:40 and when you want to unambiguously refer to that person again, you point in the same direction 05:18:41 hmmm 05:18:46 oh 05:19:17 so you can unambiguously keep track of multiple unnamed participants by associating them with particular locations in the space around the conversers. 05:19:37 Ghosts 05:21:49 D: 05:21:59 I SEE DEAF PEOPLE 05:22:13 sucks, though, if a conversation's referenced people gets so crowded that you screw up a reference 05:22:40 its a really need phenomena tho man 05:22:51 yeah 05:24:52 neat* 05:24:53 o.o; 05:26:55 hey augur 05:27:00 hey oranjer 05:27:39 what do you think of taking advantage of knowing Conway's Law and making a business that makes it's decisions using Consensus Decision Making? 05:27:57 whats conway's law 05:28:16 oh yes 05:28:17 uh 05:28:23 i dont know. 05:28:32 an organization will almost certainly produce systems/products that match the internal structure of the organization 05:28:46 ehiird knows about it 05:28:58 about compilers? 05:30:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law 05:30:17 what do you think, augur? 05:30:42 oh yes 05:30:43 uh 05:30:44 i dont know. 05:30:51 :( 05:30:57 okay... 05:31:22 what do you think of me taking those exams for credits, instead of taking the courses? 05:31:35 what 05:31:44 CLEP and whatnot 05:31:46 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 05:32:17 like, instead of taking the basic courses in college, I just take an exam that gives me the course's credit if I pass 05:33:33 .. 05:33:43 bad idea? 05:33:45 sorry 05:33:46 stop being irritating. 05:33:51 I'm not! 05:34:00 you are. 05:34:05 how? 05:34:13 I want your opinion on taking those exams 05:34:15 is it a good idea? 05:35:10 i dont know 05:35:14 oh 05:35:19 im not a prophet or a fortune teller or anything! 05:35:21 jeez. 05:35:21 :| 05:35:49 ...you're not in college? 05:35:51 :O 05:35:55 *sigh* 05:36:43 ???? 05:37:21 Oranjer: Isn't the point that you learn as much as possible? If you already know the content of one cource, you might as well learn something else instead. 05:37:47 waht does that mean? 05:37:51 *what, ha 05:38:00 The credits are just to make sure you have learnt enough at the end 05:38:09 so you're saying I should just take the tests? 05:38:41 No. I'm saying that you should study for some other cource, one that you don't already know. 05:39:35 well, I'm talking about taking the tests for courses whose credits are required, *and* that I already know 05:40:06 as in, either I take the course, or I take the test, I can't opt out 05:40:10 I would love to, though 05:40:14 If you think you can pass the exam, you might as well take it. 05:40:21 yay! 05:40:45 but I was concerned--is it seen as less of an accomplishment? 05:41:08 Does that matter? You get the credits. 05:41:11 true 05:41:29 very well, I shall do every such exam I can find! huzzah! 05:41:41 required ones 05:41:55 awww 05:42:07 okay, dad :( 05:42:40 MizardX is probably younger than you. 05:42:53 24 05:42:56 o ok 05:43:02 wait what someone my age? 05:43:04 CRAZY 05:43:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:43:43 I asked on #bochs already, but I'm asking here too because more people are on here, in case anyone knows anything about Bochs or about operating systems or about MBR: 05:43:44 it is ? 05:43:48 I created a disk image, and then I put at address $0: [B8 00 B8 8E C0 26 C6 06 FF 01 9A EB FE] and at address $1FE: [55 AA]. Why won't it load? 05:43:56 uhhhh 05:44:52 It just displays the VGA BIOS screen and then won't do anything. 05:44:53 lalala 05:44:57 algebraic datastructures 05:44:58 lalala 05:45:33 hahaha 05:45:46 what are these addresses zzo38? 05:46:51 These are the addresses in the file called c.img 05:47:01 okay 05:47:15 how uh how can you have addresses inside a file 05:47:30 I mean, the address of where the data is stored in the file. $0 is the beginning of the file 05:48:05 ah! 05:48:19 and $1FE ? 05:48:32 B8 00 B8 8E C0 26 C6 06 FF 01 9A EB FE is the code section of the MBR. 55 AA is the signature bytes. 05:49:04 Yes, at least that's what it is supposed to be, am doing something wrong? 05:49:12 It won't even load it. (I checked) 05:49:39 After I can get it to load, then I can see if the code is correct. 05:49:50 But, first, how do I load it? 05:50:08 trial and error? 05:55:04 No, that isn't how. 05:55:21 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026125401.htm 05:55:22 :D 05:55:28 mov eax, C08EB800 05:55:28 mov Byte ptr ES:[esi],FFh 05:55:28 add DWord ptr DS:[edx+0000FEEB],ebx 05:55:48 assuming it is x86 code 05:56:02 huh 05:56:20 sleep deprivation only does one thing to me, and that's make me sweat 05:56:24 is that weird? 05:56:41 it makes me sweat a bit too 05:56:44 but like 05:56:48 a cold grimey sweat 05:56:52 exactly! 05:57:06 I can't feel it, /but I know it's there/ 05:58:42 i wish i knew some organic chemistry 05:58:49 so i could experiment with this stuff 05:59:18 or start an illegal underground H+ organization x3 06:00:07 MizardX: It is supposed to be a 16-bit code however, because it is real-mode, isn't it supposed to? 06:00:18 hey augur 06:00:22 hey oranjer 06:00:30 we can always start an invisible school 06:00:55 theres a freeschool in baltimore 06:00:56 o.o 06:00:59 :O 06:01:08 still, though 06:01:26 there's a reason you aren't taking organic chemistry there, isn't there? 06:01:48 augur? 06:02:02 anyway, what? 06:02:06 a free school? 06:02:07 is it good? 06:02:08 :O 06:02:19 its a school run by anarchists 06:03:02 :O 06:06:37 yeah 06:06:40 pretty awesome 06:07:00 are they good teachers? 06:07:46 dunno 06:07:48 i dont go to it 06:07:49 because 06:07:51 im in DC 06:07:53 not baltimor 06:08:27 oh 06:08:37 link please? 06:13:42 what 06:13:49 to the school 06:13:53 do they have a website 06:14:00 redemmas.org 06:14:17 thanks 06:15:32 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 06:47:52 see ya peoples 06:48:15 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:50:55 I have tried other disk images too, nothing works, I just get the BIOS screen and then it just does nothing after that. 06:57:47 I think I fixed it. It needs at least 2M memory allocated to work, I was allocating 1M 06:57:57 Now I will try again. 06:58:46 Hay, I fixed it! 06:59:27 Why doesn't the documentation say you need at least 2M allocated? 06:59:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:10:43 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:10:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:14:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:17:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit ("leaving"). 07:18:33 -!- ehiird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:18:52 -!- ehird has joined. 07:19:01 You know what JFS is? 07:19:04 AWESOME 07:19:11 Javascript File System! :o 07:19:23 i'm drunk 07:19:29 augur: no 07:19:31 fuck that idea 07:19:33 :p 07:19:36 bsmntbombdood: okay 07:19:59 okay 07:20:02 bsmntbombdood: are you as think as you drunk you are? 07:20:18 more 07:20:28 o-kay! 07:20:46 i know that's backwards but i read it perfectly the first time :D 07:21:29 os yas uoy fi 07:22:05 i just did 07:22:37 the fact that your spelling is still perfect is suspicious. but maybe you have a spell checker. 07:22:55 ?gnihtemos ro dedrater uoy era 07:23:08 !syawla 07:23:41 i spell better when my bac is over 20 07:24:01 0 07:24:10 okay 07:24:24 * bsmntbombdood licks oerjan 07:24:39 hm... 07:24:48 i bet you've never licked something with a air dish number of 4 07:25:02 aha! spelling error! 07:25:12 what the heck is an air dish number 07:25:36 Erdős 07:25:49 >_< 07:27:37 bsmntbombdood: let's get married! 07:27:45 ok 07:27:53 okay we're married now 07:27:55 bsmntbombdood: i want a divorce! 07:27:56 ok 07:28:29 i get alimony 07:28:49 * bsmntbombdood ejaculates on ehird 07:29:11 ejaculatory alimony. 07:29:19 i fucking love semen 07:32:06 ehird: can i have it back? 07:32:19 no. 07:38:20 more ethanol y/n 07:41:19 i'm hoping for a zombie apocolypse 07:41:26 cra[ 07:41:31 i probably spelled that rong 07:45:37 yes. one might say that. 07:47:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:47:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:53:47 o 07:53:49 i'm back 07:54:00 bearing tea, a bagel, and irish cream 07:56:40 sounds civilized 07:56:51 and with internet access to boot 07:57:57 what's that supposed to mean? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:20 nothing. civilization is an illusion. 08:00:38 also, i should probably go to bed soon. 08:00:38 i don't know that it is 08:03:04 that's because it's a secret. i should probably not have told you. 08:03:47 bsmntbombdood: mix the tea, the bagel, irish cream, and some alcohol-based beverage together 08:03:51 and drinkeat it 08:03:55 DO IT NOW 08:04:08 irish cream is an alcohol-based beverage 08:04:09 argh. that is _definitely_ not civilized. 08:17:33 bsmntbombdood: so what 08:17:40 you can never have too much alcohol! 08:17:53 blow me 08:37:12 -!- ehird has quit. 08:43:09 hey kids 09:18:15 -!- adam_d has joined. 09:47:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:24:53 morning 10:25:11 08:00:38 also, i should probably go to bed soon. 10:25:12 eh 10:25:17 and we are in same time zone 10:25:19 XD 10:36:37 -!- MizardX has quit ("restart"). 10:42:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:09:03 http://omploader.org/vMm51YQ 12:09:08 bootchart on laptop 12:13:04 9.04; not Koala yet? 12:13:22 How old-fashioned; it's been out almost a day or so already. 12:19:38 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:40:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 12:40:11 -!- rodgort has joined. 13:09:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 13:12:46 I should try to assign this power to my character in D&D game, please read: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/my_rule_1.txt 13:29:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:31:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:42:56 sleep deprivation makes me sweet 11:47:48 -!- clog has joined. 11:47:48 -!- clog_ has joined. 14:02:36 -!- clog has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:05:30 hey oklopol 14:06:55 hey you . 14:08:43 -!- sierinjs has joined. 14:09:41 if the pointer of block in brainfuck is 0 and a < occours inside [], then it exits from the [], right? 14:14:09 if the IP encounters a < in the prorgram, the MP moves one step left on the tape 14:14:11 *program 14:15:27 hm. 14:15:30 "GRUB 2 is the default boot loader for new installations with Ubuntu 9.10 RC, replacing the previous GRUB "Legacy" boot loader." 14:15:39 though "Existing systems will not be upgraded to GRUB 2 at this time, as automatically reinstalling the boot loader is an inherently risky operation." 14:25:41 oklopol: mkaaaay, but what's IP/MP? 14:26:04 instruction pointer, memory pointer 14:28:08 yeah, but if < happens within [] and MP is 0? 14:29:47 there's no what if, there are no exceptions 14:30:30 erm, m'okay, but that doesn't explain much 14:32:09 by MP = 0 do you mean you're at the leftmost cell? that's implementation dependent 14:32:32 but that has nothing to do with whether you're in a loop so i assumed you meant the value of the cell and not the pointer 14:33:14 i'm making my own brainfuck interpreter ^_^ 14:35:12 been there 15:00:58 -!- fax has joined. 15:11:03 are there any other conditions when interpreter exits from [] than when MP = 0? 15:39:10 no 15:40:55 AnMaster: Debian did the GRUB 2 update so that they added a single entry to the GRUB 1 menu to chainload GRUB 2 with; then you could test it out, and if it worked, say "sudo update-from-grub-legacy" to stick GRUB 2 to the MBR. (I guess it's still a bit risky, but better.) 15:55:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:56:07 fizzie, heh 15:56:10 hi ais523 15:56:24 ais523, http://omploader.org/vMm51YQ bootchart for laptop on jaunty 15:56:46 oh and I tried karmic in a VM. What the hell is up with gdm? You can no longer change the theme of it easily it seems 15:57:07 * AnMaster ended up googling and doing some stuff from the vt as root to be able to fix it 15:59:12 this seems so very unlike ubuntu 15:59:31 and horrible looking splash screen when you log in 16:02:13 yes, the theme seems impossible to change altogether 16:02:45 I'm slightly annoyed that the login screen lists all the users/usernames, finding the correct username is a speedbump for people trying to use a computer incorrectly 16:02:51 ais523, see http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/hack-karmics-gdm-login-screen.html 16:02:52 and 16:02:55 I found the list thing 16:02:55 although, I'm not sure if you can make that login screen come up remotely 16:03:32 http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=205633 (fedora yes, but the approach works for me under ubuntu too): 16:03:36 sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults --type bool --set /apps/gdm/simple-greeter/disable_user_list true 16:04:06 ais523, still that instead requires you to click a button before entering user name 16:04:30 * AnMaster decides to check if you can make it use another login manager, from xfce or maybe kdm 16:05:04 hm does xfce has one? 16:05:05 err 16:05:07 have* 16:05:26 AnMaster: I have both gdm and kdm installed 16:05:35 Ubuntu handled this by telling kdm to exit immediately upon loading 16:05:42 err. 16:05:44 which is kind-of amusing, because upstart has it set to respawn 16:05:46 why start it at all 16:05:54 so when the computer loads, gdm loads once, kdm loads about 10 times 16:06:01 before upstart notices the loop and stops respawning it 16:06:08 ais523, this seems rather silly 16:06:12 why not have some sort of 16:06:13 it is 16:06:19 LOGINMANAGER="kdm" 16:06:20 or such 16:06:23 in some config file 16:06:30 (this reminds me of Ubuntu trying to disable the beep on shutdown by blacklisting the PC speaker kernel module....) 16:06:42 ais523, btw does karmic fix it properly? 16:06:48 that beep I mean 16:06:52 AnMaster: the beep doesn't occur, I'm not sure why 16:06:57 I think the shutdown sequence is entirely different 16:07:01 meaning that the bug doesn't happen 16:07:02 ah 16:07:47 [ ! -f /etc/X11/default-display-manager -o "$(cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null)" = "/usr/sbin/gdm" ] 16:07:54 weird line to have in the upstart gdm script 16:08:05 I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to do 16:08:10 it seems the result of the test is never used 16:09:22 Is it a shell script or just some "execute commands and stop if a command fails" script? 16:10:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:10:38 fizzie, hm... hard to tell 16:10:43 it is in a "script" block 16:10:55 It might be the latter, in which case it makes sense. 16:11:08 yeah, maybe 16:11:19 oh funny thing 16:11:31 (I don't really know anything about upstart.) 16:11:32 synaptic thinks tzdata is deprecated 16:11:40 as in, not available in karmic any longer 16:11:47 oh and lots of available packages depends on it 16:11:55 and apt-get refuses to reinstall it even when told to 16:11:59 saying it can't find it 16:13:21 That's strange; there's tzdata 2009o-1ubuntu2 in karmic according to packages.ubuntu.com. 16:13:58 I guess I should try out the Koala in the iBook some of these days. Don't really remember what it had installed. 16:14:06 fizzie, that is the one I have installed 16:14:20 actually not sure 16:14:27 there are *two* ones listed for me 16:14:58 fizzie, http://pastebin.ca/1650514 16:15:04 can you make any sense of that? 16:15:38 and how to fix it 16:16:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:17:29 it also says that some packages are unused and suggests using autoremove for them 16:17:44 all l10n or docs 16:17:47 openoffice.org-l10n-sv openoffice.org-l10n-en-gb openoffice.org-help-en-gb gimp-help-common openoffice.org-l10n-common 16:17:47 gimp-help-en gimp-help-sv openoffice.org-help-sv 16:18:57 They have probably changed the dependency types so that those no longer autoinstall. (Maybe. If so, you can always tag those as manually installed.) 16:19:09 I don't really know how to use Synaptic, though, since I always just use aptitude. 16:19:29 fizzie, apt-get for me unless I don't know how to do it that way... then I use synaptic 16:20:15 Aptitude's better than apt-get at dependency-handling; you can browse resolution suggestions and so on. 16:20:40 How's it going with the Ubuntu Software Center or whatnot? Wasn't that in karmic already? 16:21:08 fizzie, yeah it is even worse than the old gnome thingy for that 16:21:10 IMO 16:21:18 a lot more clicks to select something for install 16:21:23 or deselect it 16:21:24 in fact 16:21:31 you seem to only be able to install one at a time 16:21:36 or deinstall one at a time 16:21:43 no "select check boxes, then click install 16:23:27 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 17:00:21 !bf [-]+++++++++++>[-]>[-]>>[-]+>>[-]<[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[<[-]>[-]<<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-][-]>>>>[-]<[-]>>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<< 17:00:21 <<<+>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<<<[<<.>>[-]]>>>>[<<<<<<->>>>>->-]<[>-<-]<<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-] 17:00:25 D: 17:00:39 <++> 17:10:06 too long 17:10:45 Pthing, you can easily compress that a bit though 17:10:52 for instance, the initial [-] isn't required 17:10:53 doubtless 17:11:06 i just saw it somewhere and wondered what it did 17:11:14 run it locally? 17:11:29 would do, but i'm doing something else 17:15:30 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:17:27 Pthing: paste it and set EgoBot to the pastebin 17:17:41 bored of it now 17:18:13 great, after trying to switch to kdm, X refuses to start 17:18:17 with completely unrelated errors 17:18:24 yet switching back to gdm fixes it 17:18:31 how confusing 17:19:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:20:51 !bf +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-]<<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>- 17:20:53 ]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-] 17:20:55 ugh, still too long 17:21:05 I was busy peephole-optimising by han 17:21:07 *hand 17:21:24 ais523, paste it and set EgoBot to the pastebin! 17:22:16 !bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/1650570 17:22:30 well, that was anticlimatic 17:22:33 !bf 17:22:44 !fungot style 17:23:18 !help 17:23:19 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:23:23 it is still there 17:23:31 fax, and you are confusing the bots 17:23:35 ^style 17:23:42 (fungot isn't here...) 17:23:50 fungot ^style 17:23:51 fizzie, where is fungot!? 17:23:53 !beef 17:23:55 Oh. Strange. 17:24:04 And you can run longer programs on fungot with the text-variable-thing. 17:24:29 "IRC read failed."; must've been a netsplit, or break in my connection. 17:24:41 !bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 17:24:56 oh, EgoBot doesn't accept that sort of input 17:25:00 !bf +[.+] 17:25:04 17:25:27 And now my hostname is wrong, aw. 17:25:30 !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.+] 17:25:36 !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ 17:25:45 (confining it to printables will probably produce a more readable output) 17:25:46 -!- fizzie has quit ("jumpin' jumpin'"). 17:25:48 -!- fizzie has joined. 17:26:14 -!- fungot has joined. 17:26:51 ^str 0 set +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-] 17:26:51 Set: +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-] 17:27:04 ^str 0 add <<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-] 17:27:05 Added. 17:27:20 fizzie: I tried running it locally, it used up 100% of my CPU and didn't do anything obvious 17:27:29 ^bf str:0 17:27:35 Oh, well. That's not so interesting, then. 17:27:52 Anyway, something like that can be used to run longer programs. 17:28:07 (Unless I've broken it.) 17:28:46 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:29:01 we need a fingerprint that creates Befunge VMs 17:29:14 so that you could safely run arbitrary Befunge-98 without it breaking out and affecting the rest of the program 17:30:26 MVRS is close 17:36:11 hm 17:44:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 17:44:46 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 17:54:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:04:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:39:33 -!- Kalagar has joined. 18:46:58 -!- Oranjer has joined. 18:53:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:53:53 :O 18:59:56 oerjan, iwc 19:00:10 what 19:00:15 also, I am not oerjan 19:00:24 indeed you are not 19:00:34 iwc = irregular webcomic 19:00:34 Oranjer, correct observation 19:00:40 oerjan, he knows 19:00:44 he asked before 19:00:53 actually, I had forgotten, thanks 19:00:54 ha 19:00:55 oerjan, seems he forgot to close one tag 19:01:06 o_O 19:01:15 AAAND 19:01:17 "News: I am away from the Internet from 31 Oct to 3 Nov. I will not be reading or responding to e-mail during this time. The comics should update as normal, but if anything goes wrong, I won't be able to fix it." 19:01:22 oh 19:01:27 why is it things always break when he is away 19:01:33 some sort of pratical joke? 19:01:37 um i haven't read it yet 19:01:52 oerjan, ah 19:02:06 fizzie, ais523: something is broken with firefox in ubuntu karmic 19:02:13 AnMaster: what? 19:02:15 it seems fine for me 19:02:17 ais523, it doesn't use system wide setting for hinting and AA 19:02:26 much more blurry and slightly subpixelishg 19:02:30 subpixelish* 19:03:12 hm 19:03:14 http://www.ubuntu-inside.me/2009/07/howto-fix-firefox-35s-font-hinting.html 19:03:16 seems relevant 19:07:50 * oerjan didn't realize it was 11:11 GMT before 19:08:15 oerjan, hm? 19:08:55 iwc update time. that "no reason" in the faq seems rather dubious now 19:09:20 oerjan, it is 11:11 *somewhere* if you publish it at 11 past 19:09:59 yes but it could be a WWI reference 19:10:19 alas, it seems WWI ended at 11:00, not 11:11 19:10:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11:11_%28numerology%29 19:11:21 it should have been 11:11:11 1/9 19:12:41 i cannot say i have noticed that particular coincidence. obviously it will now start cropping up all over the place :) 19:12:59 *synchronicity 19:14:41 and just now i discovered wikipedia has deleted the page on the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. Coincidence? I think not! 19:15:19 WHAT 19:15:22 bullshit 19:16:00 oerjan, Baader-Meinhof phenomenon? 19:16:01 also, i am joking. despite believing in synchronicity. 19:16:23 AnMaster: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW NOW, WHAT, WITH IT BEING DELETED 19:16:26 Well, you're not joking in that it was deleted, some months ago IIRC. 19:16:27 * AnMaster knows what Baader-Meinhof was, but not what the "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" is/was 19:16:33 unless you use the power of the google 19:16:38 oerjan, you could tell me 19:18:10 BUT THAT WOULD BE CHEATING 19:18:47 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:19:02 oerjan, cheating who? 19:19:46 -!- fax has joined. 19:21:31 ais523, another karmic issue: you know the menu for logout/shutdown and such? 19:21:40 yes 19:21:44 why is there a status setting thingy at the top of it 19:21:48 for IM clients 19:21:48 a sub menu 19:21:52 with all grayed out options 19:21:53 it links to Empathy 19:21:57 ais523, how do you get rid of it? 19:22:03 the options are grayed out if there aren't any running programs that care 19:22:09 I don't want it to clutter the menu 19:22:09 and I don't know; it's just the one menu option 19:22:39 there's probably some way to turn it off somewhere 19:22:43 ais523, also switching to kdm seems like only sane option under karmic 19:22:44 and it'll probably be on the Web by now 19:23:19 ais523, what is the name of the sub menu in English. For some reason that single menu is i18ned to Swedish here... 19:23:26 (or l10ned I guess) 19:23:29 "Set Status" 19:23:43 ais523, thanks. Oh what is the odd letter icon thingy for 19:24:03 what odd letter icon thingy? 19:24:20 ais523, argh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/447964 19:24:34 ais523, it seems linked to evolution, But it is in the indicator applet thingy 19:24:42 which iirc is used for other (useful) stuff 19:24:49 so not sure how to get rid of the evolution icon 19:24:54 I use thunderbirf 19:24:56 bird* 19:24:59 AnMaster: maybe it's not a missing . maybe the web page just has an evil beard 19:25:13 * 19:25:24 it's empathy it's linked to, not evolution 19:25:29 oh, the letter icon 19:25:36 that means new mail arrived, I think 19:25:49 just turn off evolution-alarm-notifier in the services thing 19:27:00 ais523, that *is* turned off 19:27:01 already 19:27:12 * AnMaster tries to uninstall the relevant packages 19:27:49 evolution-alarm-notifier sounds badass. like, it goes off if somewhere evolves giant man-eating squirrels... 19:28:15 oerjan, no. It is just a boring enterprisy gorupwareific thing 19:28:28 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 19:28:33 DON'T RUIN THE JOKE 19:28:37 god damn. Even uninstalling didn't help 19:28:45 ais523, ^ 19:29:28 hm... 19:29:37 mail-notification - mail notification in system tray 19:29:38 mail-notification-evolution - evolution support for mail notification 19:29:41 maybe the first one too 19:30:16 oh, claims that isn't installed 19:30:18 no great help 19:31:44 ah I guess it is the indicator-messages package 19:31:45 however... 19:32:01 removing that will remove: 19:32:03 indicator-applet* indicator-applet-session* indicator-messages* indicator-session* ubuntu-desktop* 19:32:06 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:32:09 fuck those deps 19:32:12 ais523, ^ 19:33:00 AnMaster: why do you think I can help? 19:33:26 Do you think this is good, and what level adjustment (if any), and what other stuff should I write on this file? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/my_rule_1.txt 19:33:46 ais523, you used ubuntu longer. But anyway I need somewhere to release my irritation. Speaking with you works. 19:35:46 -!- ehird has joined. 19:36:05 And, how bad is this game, in your opinion: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 19:37:31 zzo38: hard to tell from that description 19:37:40 (to your second question) 19:38:01 You can try play it, if you want to. 19:38:21 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP 19:38:29 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ 19:38:40 That's all you need to run it 19:38:44 (If you want to) 19:38:55 for your first question, I don't think you'd persuade many people to play that class even with an LA of -19 19:39:04 umm, or possibly race 19:39:24 That is not a class or race, it is a add-on. And I would very much like to apply it to my character if the DM wants to 19:40:04 The DM wants to think about LA too however 19:40:12 it just seems like a way to die pretty quickly 19:40:12 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 19:40:18 So if I can get help, we can figure it out. I think -19 is too low 19:40:35 And I think I can survive with this 19:40:48 And even use it to my benefit in strange ways 19:40:57 you're probably unlikely to run at anything but LA 0 19:41:02 negative LAs freak DMs out 19:41:06 and positive would clearly be unfair 19:41:15 The DM actually said LA -20. 19:41:19 aah, 3.5 math! 19:41:21 * coppro hides 19:41:23 However I said that's too low (in my opinion) 19:42:04 anyway, I don't see how you're going to get out of the problem that you take damage every hour and have no natural healing 19:42:16 you're going to wear the clerics on your team dry 19:42:36 I don't take damage every hour. It happens only in stuff in case of the things listed, in the past hour. 19:42:45 So if I avoid those things, I won't take that damage. 19:42:59 And, we have no clerics in our party, however I have some healing powers 19:43:37 (The ones about items/artifacts are if you have carried/used that item in the past hour, not counting inaccessible items due to transformation) 19:44:20 And, many of these things can be suppressed temporarily due to the use of Permanent Max HP Loss Actions 19:45:39 My DM actually *suggested* negative LA. I disagreed but he insists 19:47:46 However, he won't be in this country today. 19:47:50 negative LA seems like a truly terrible idea 19:48:10 coppro: I know. 19:48:36 However, you could still add up everything and if the total is negative increase it to +0. But I'm not sure how best it is though 19:49:04 Who needs decent racial traits when you can cast wish at level 1? 19:49:33 I know, that's why total LA should never be negative 19:51:00 coppro: a level 1 wish would require an LA of -16 19:51:04 which seems kind-of unlikely 19:51:15 I know there was an effort to weaken goblins to the point where LA -1 was balanced, but they didn't manage it 19:51:18 ais523: hi hypocrite 19:51:25 ais523, zzo38 what is this LA? thing? 19:51:29 s/?// 19:51:32 ehird: what are you going to accuse me of hypocriticality about? 19:51:33 AnMaster: LA is Level Adjustment 19:51:33 LA=Level Adjustment. 19:51:35 ah 19:51:49 it's basically a crutch to allow players to play stronger races by reducing the number of class levels they get 19:51:53 It means that your XP and starting money is calculated due to a different level than the actual one 19:51:57 ais523: why don't we talk about esolangs more! I wish this channel was on topic! can we talk about esolangs? 19:52:01 ais523: blah blah blah DnD or whatever 19:52:01 ehird: heh 19:52:05 seems a bit unlikely, really 19:52:13 also, this channel is zzo38's while he's here 19:52:19 (actually, you wouldn't be able to cast wish at level 1 anyway due to XP requirements, but still...) 19:52:22 For example, LA+1 means your XP is calculated due to your HD level + 1 19:52:26 touché 19:53:03 This channel is not mine, if it was it would clearly have a + sign at the beginning of its name instead of # 19:53:26 * coppro loves 3.5e. It's a stellar exapmle of how NOT to design a game 19:53:56 I happen to like 3.5e however there are some things wrong, that I try to fix by writing Icosahedral RPG instead 19:54:10 * AnMaster sighas 19:54:13 sighs* 19:54:20 ais523, how goes Feather? 19:54:34 wow, at least i was outright aggressive about it as opposed to passive-aggressive 19:54:36 :D 19:55:11 AnMaster: languages are really annoying when you find you need an operator on all objects to see if they're a particular constant or not 19:55:21 ais523: i don't think you do 19:55:34 wow I believe X on karmic just crashed when the screen was locked 19:55:36 ehird: I can't figure out how to parse that sentence in content 19:55:40 um, context 19:55:48 and now the lock screen option is gone 19:55:51 the is-it-a-constant 19:55:58 don't think you need it 19:56:17 ais523, does your karmic has an option in the logout/shutdown menu to lock the screen? 19:56:21 ehird: well, the issue is, the only way to find out what an object is is to send messages to it 19:56:22 the messages are also options 19:56:28 AnMaster: yes, and it works 19:56:32 I've used it 19:56:34 ais523, mine is gone now 19:56:41 AnMaster: you have to login via gdm 19:56:41 AnMaster: well, you are messing with that menu... 19:56:44 not start x yourself. 19:56:52 ais523, no I wasn't. I gave up on it 19:56:52 ehird: aha, because it's gdm that handles the locking 19:56:54 that makes sense 19:56:59 ehird, I use kdm 19:57:03 AnMaster: then tough shit. 19:57:05 AnMaster: I've been using karmic for months now and never had anything of the sort happen - and I'm on KDE 19:57:14 coppro, kdm + gnome here 19:57:23 ehird, issue is with gdm in karmic being horrible 19:57:26 expecting gnome to integrate with kdm is quite laughable. 19:57:32 AnMaster: is it? i've used it and it was absolutely fine. 19:57:52 kdm and gnome? Wha... 19:58:06 * coppro explodes 19:58:09 coppro: AnMaster has decided that the new gdm is intolerably bad 19:58:10 ehird, you can't set a better colour scheme without a log of hacks to begin with (that default brown diarrhoea look is quite ugly!) 19:58:16 then the user list 19:58:21 coppro: anmaster uses ubuntu because it "just works" and then changes everything about it and complains when it braeks. 19:58:22 sure there are hacks to get rid of it 19:58:22 *breaks 19:58:22 AnMaster: it isn't brown by default, it's greyscale 19:58:24 but then 19:58:31 So, is LA -1 for this file I wrote good enough (my character's LA is already +1 so that simply cancels it out). I don't believe it should be lower. 19:58:32 you need to click a button before entering user name 19:58:41 no you don't. 19:58:54 AnMaster: if that's diarrhoea colour to you, by the way, you have bowel problems 19:58:58 i've never had orange diarrhoea. 19:59:07 ehird, it is brownish 19:59:12 and not greyscale 19:59:17 oh, i forgot, your screen makes everything look utterly wrong. 19:59:24 right, sorry, it's orange in fact, you see. 19:59:36 Whatever number it is I will add it to the file before printing it out a second time 20:00:33 ehird, hm you have /usr/share/gdm/themes/HumanList/background.png as the bg image? 20:00:51 Show me a screenshot, I'm not booting into Ubuntu. 20:00:56 sure sec 20:01:11 ehird, since this is in a vm it will take a sec 20:01:27 And, you can discuss scoring of computer games? (Just any computer games in general, I mean) 20:01:45 Some is I think the scoring is wrong or is OK but could be improved, usually I try to improve it 20:02:08 zzo38: make sure there isn't some repetitive action you can take to increase your score arbitrarily high 20:02:13 like Death farming in NetHack 20:02:25 is that where you farm Death himself 20:03:03 ais523: I always keep rtack of this. However, many games do not. 20:03:09 08:21:08 fizzie, yeah it is even worse than the old gnome thingy for that 20:03:10 08:21:10 IMO 20:03:10 08:21:18 a lot more clicks to select something for install 20:03:10 08:21:23 or deselect it 20:03:10 08:21:24 in fact 20:03:11 08:21:31 you seem to only be able to install one at a time 20:03:12 08:21:36 or deinstall one at a time 20:03:14 08:21:43 no "select check boxes, then click install 20:03:17 you can go to another package and install it while the other is installing 20:03:19 ehird: yes, you kill-equivalent him repeatedly 20:03:19 and it is not more clicks 20:03:35 as in, actually killing Death permanently doesn't really make sense, but you can repeatedly knock him out 20:03:36 ehird, you counted? 20:03:41 type to search, double click the package, click Install. 20:03:46 Occasionally, it is possible (with very minor changes to the game) to fix it by requiring that you have to complete the entire game but with the lowest total score possible, instead of the highest. 20:03:57 with the old one: type to search, tick the package, click install, click "Close" at the end 20:04:01 ehird, for uninstall 20:04:04 I meant 20:04:10 it's the same amount 20:04:17 the button changes to uninstall 20:04:19 instead of install 20:04:37 ehird, no. I went to category and then only thing was an arrow button that you showed an info screen about the app 20:04:44 then there the uninstall button was 20:04:48 not in the category listing 20:05:00 clearly more clicks than clicking check boxes in the old category lists 20:05:01 For one thing, I think the ADOM scoring could definitely be improved a lot 20:05:03 Which is why you search when you want to uninstall something, because obviously you already know what it is. 20:05:21 ehird, actually no. I wanted to see "what useless crap is there here to get rid of" 20:06:16 how about, if you're going to go against ubuntu's philosophy and be a malcontent about every-fucking-thing they've done, stop using ubuntu 20:06:37 you say you want it to "just work" but clearly you're not happy with that considering how long you spend changing everything 20:06:44 hm that background is yellow-brownish on my desktop 20:06:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 20:07:11 Yes, you don't have to use Ubuntu, there are various others, you can even write your own if you prefer 20:07:40 AnMaster: The word for "yellow-brownish" is "orange". 20:07:50 ehird, what about the splash screen 20:07:54 that is brown on my desktop too 20:08:03 Define splash screen. 20:08:06 ehird, this http://omploader.org/vMm55MQ 20:08:23 (different res, just picked one randomly from that directory) 20:08:23 That's very-dim-browny-pinky-purpley. 20:08:31 -crimsony. 20:08:34 -!- Kalagar has quit. 20:08:34 ehird, that is the thing used for the ubuntu splash 20:08:43 and it is very ugly 20:08:43 I know 20:09:14 ehird, further, even the orange look of the gdm background is ugly as fuck 20:09:45 Nobody gives a fuck what you think about the artwork! 20:09:54 If you hate it so much you're going to die oh god, don't fucking use Ubuntu! 20:10:10 We get it! Ubuntu is uglier than babies thrown in a blender! 20:10:11 ehird, of course you can work around it. What about the user list? ais523 didn't like that either 20:10:16 SCP-413: THE BUILDINGS NEXT DOOR AND ACROSS THE STREET DONT BELIEVE IM A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF SOCIETY AND THAT I WILL GIVE AWAY THEIR PLANS 20:10:16 Dr. ███████: What plans? 20:10:16 SCP-413: THAT WE ATTACK TOMRROW 20:10:36 AnMaster: why do you continually use the argument "AIS523 DID IT TOO EXCEPT 10X LESS ANNOYINGLY"? 20:10:45 it's highly unconvincing, even if i accept its blatant appeal to authority 20:10:47 ehird, define annoyingly 20:10:47 ok, this argument about the gdm background is confusing me 20:10:55 AnMaster says it's orange, ehird says it's purple, I say it's grey 20:11:05 ais523, it is not gray. No way. 20:11:06 he says it's brown 20:11:09 ah 20:11:15 same colour, technically speaking 20:11:21 shut up, both of you, you both use crappy TN laptop displays 20:11:28 I know what colour it is :-P 20:11:31 the middle bit is browny 20:11:35 then it doees to crimsony at the sides 20:11:42 and there's sort of a hint of purple in the halo of the bottom bit 20:11:50 that is the splash 20:11:54 not the gdm background 20:11:54 so you have said. 20:12:01 stop confusing them 20:12:15 and the gray scale thing is the shutdown thingy 20:13:02 ais523, anyway. The login list can as I mentioned be forced off by gconf stuff. But then you get a button to click before you can enter user name 20:13:06 which is retarted 20:13:25 * AnMaster assumes ehird will find is silly that anyone wanted to hide user list 20:13:53 I don't, the user-list sort-of assumes people will primarily use the mouse 20:13:56 which is annoying 20:13:58 no it doesn't 20:13:59 hit enter 20:14:00 voila 20:14:04 you can type your password 20:14:15 umm, there's more than one user on the list? 20:14:15 ehird, I want to have to type user name too. 20:14:24 ais523: arrow keys? 20:14:29 and IIRC, there's no obvious way to tell which user is selected 20:15:44 Ubuntu is all many different kind of problems, I have to write my own different distribution instead for better 20:15:54 ah, got it, it's in reverse video 20:15:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:03 next issue: I've used computers so much that I don't even /notice/ reverse video... 20:16:28 ais523, what would cause the reverse video? screen tilt? 20:16:29 -!- coppro has joined. 20:17:08 AnMaster: repeatedly switching between black-background and white-background programs and/or websites 20:17:10 Ubuntu has been called "Windows Linux Edition" in some cases 20:17:31 ais523, what exactly do you mean by reverse video here? 20:17:54 ais523, or you mean it does that for selection? 20:17:57 AnMaster: black on white rather than white on black 20:18:03 ah 20:18:03 zzo38: have you ever seen Linspire? 20:18:10 and yes, it does that for selection 20:18:28 I have seen Linspire too, but FreeGeek uses Ubuntu 20:19:10 * AnMaster sighs 20:19:27 ehird, what do you have against a "enter username" text input? 20:19:30 what exactly? 20:19:34 Nothing, and I never said I did 20:19:41 ehird, you acted like you did above 20:20:05 I have something about you being a whiny bitch for hours because you chose a distro that you said you wanted to just work and complain when you fiddle with shit and expect that from everything in direct contradiction 20:21:13 err "complain when you fiddle with shit and expect that from everything in direct contradiction" 20:21:27 I complain that the new gdm is much dumbed down 20:21:31 that is all 20:21:42 and I'm not alone. try google 20:21:42 I actually really like it, apart from the user list 20:21:55 You said you wanted something that "just worked" instead of fiddling about, and that's why you picked Ubuntu. So you installed it and promptly fiddled with everything and continued doing so. 20:21:56 things like having dropdowns rather than putting everything behind menus 20:22:14 Now you're complaining that you can't keep doing this, thus exposing that no, you really don't just want something that just works. 20:22:20 ehird, I still want to be able to at least select background and such. ... 20:22:23 So stop complaining or switch to something fiddly. 20:22:25 it is a regression 20:22:32 Go and whine on the bug tracker, then. 20:22:38 I don't like user list on logon, either. Although currently I don't have Linux, I still turned off the welcome menu and set it to not keep the last username, require CTRL+ALT+DELETE, and a few oter things 20:22:44 ehird, I subscribed to an open bug about it 20:22:47 You complain about me complaining about software here instead of to the software authors; at least I don't repeat it for hours. 20:22:54 one of about, uh, 500 or so subscribing users 20:22:56 Anyone who has Windows but prefers this way must have done so 20:23:02 so yeah I'm far from alone 20:23:08 Ooh, a whole 500. 20:23:14 That's like 90% of Ubuntu users. 20:23:27 ehird, considering the majority doesn't report bugs or don't have accounts or such. 20:23:30 It's not like malcontents are the type to subscribe and users who only have a mild preference wouldn't generally bother. 20:23:33 Nope, not at all. 20:23:48 "and users who only have a mild preference wouldn't generally bother." 20:23:58 that is what I said on the line above partly 20:23:58 ... 20:24:37 ehird, anyway I fail to see why locking screen with kdm would be an issue. locking screen in KDE when using gdm works 20:24:41 I done that before 20:24:44 umm, require control-alt-delete on login? for Linux? 20:24:51 zzo38 uses Windows. 20:24:51 why not alt-sysrq-k 20:24:53 ah 20:25:00 because he hasn't got around to writing his entirely own distro with his own everything yet. 20:25:41 saK? 20:25:43 yay found a solution for screen locking. xlock 20:25:44 The reason I don't use Linux is because I already have Windows, once I get a new computer or this Windows stops or whatever, I will use Linux next instead 20:25:50 now to integrate it with stuff 20:26:01 ais523, that effectively kills X though 20:26:53 oh, I see 20:27:05 http://tools.suckless.org/slock 20:27:07 For screen locking. 20:27:26 ehird, like, screen is auto locked when you close lid 20:27:28 stuff like that 20:27:34 And? 20:28:00 ehird, that is the feature I want of screen locking. Locking for close lid, suspend to disk/ram 20:28:11 And? 20:28:13 (yeah closing lid *does* suspend to ram the way I set it up 20:28:15 ) 20:28:20 ehird, and still use kdm not gdm 20:28:45 And? 20:28:54 ehird, and what? 20:29:05 I linked you to a screen locker, I'm not interested in hearing your numerous demands with the implicit and false implication that it cannot do those things. 20:29:31 ehird, it needs to be hooked up to acpid or such then 20:30:15 Incidentally, XLock considered harmful: http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/versus-xlock.html 20:30:26 Ignore the parts about the screensaver prts, naturally. 20:32:48 DESCRIPTION 20:32:48 slock is a simple screen locker utility for X, 20:32:48 OPTIONS 20:32:48 slock has no options. 20:32:56 $ slock --help 20:32:56 usage: slock [-v] 20:32:56 eh 20:32:59 whatever XD 20:33:40 "I can't press all the fun buttons! How on earth will I display the password asterisks in 72-point Impact now! THIS SOFTWARE SUCKS! It doesn't satisfy my control OCD. Add new bloat in it, quick, just so I can change how the bloat operates!" 20:33:56 ehird, actually I like slock 20:33:58 quite a lot 20:34:09 just found the disagreement on options a bit funny 20:34:14 -v isn't an option 20:34:19 ehird, flag then 20:34:19 it doesn't change how the software works 20:34:23 (sorry; I misunderstood your comment.) 20:34:27 AnMaster: yes, but it said options, not flags. 20:34:41 ehird, usually they are the same in man pages 20:34:52 ehird, and -v does change the way it works 20:35:08 instead of locking the screen it prints out version and copyright 20:35:16 It doesn't change the way it locks the screen; it isn't an option about locking the screen. 20:35:27 It's a meta-option, so to speak; it's at the level of the application binary, rather than its inner function. 20:35:29 ehird, it changes it to *not* lock the screen 20:35:33 Admittedly the man page might just be a typo. 20:35:43 ehird, the man page was made by debian btw 20:36:00 Oh. Well that'd explain it. 20:36:16 I wouldn't think it actually needs a manpage but there youg o. 20:36:18 *you go 20:36:48 ehird, debian is rather fanatic about that 20:36:56 (right word?) 20:37:04 Yes; if only they were any good at writing manpages. 20:38:56 agreed 20:39:14 Gah, why isn't there a mount you can do in userspace just on things you own. 20:39:44 So I could do $ mkdir blah; usmount -o loop -t ext2 fs blah 20:39:53 I guess I could write usmount as a setuid thing. 20:41:07 ehird, fuse style? 20:41:18 and well. Hm 20:41:19 No, a regular full-blooded mount, with the files owned by the user. 20:41:33 But the destination directory, and source device/files, must be accessible by the user. 20:41:43 So, pretty much just for loopbacks. 20:41:49 ehird, it would need to make sure options like nodev,nosuid and such are passed too 20:41:56 Yeah. 20:42:02 /linuxrc a symlink to /bin/busybox; queer. 20:42:16 ehird, if that is an initrd: why 20:42:24 * AnMaster thought initramfs were used since ages 20:42:32 Simplicity. 20:42:34 and I'm pretty sure initrd never was ext2 20:42:38 I'm looking at the stage1 stali rootfs. 20:42:39 but some other format 20:42:53 and /linuxrc is for initrd unless I misremember 20:43:07 So it's for initrd, then. 20:44:15 ehird, initrd is more complex from a kernel point of view. Since the kernel itself has to start /sbin/init after the /linuxrc process exits. With initramfs the initial process (/init unless I misremember) never exits but should end up executing the real init at the end 20:44:31 That's a minor detail; initramfs is, I belieeve, more cmoplex than initrd in itself. 20:44:37 *believe *complex 20:44:38 hm 20:44:43 Anyway, eventually I believe they'll have enither. 20:44:46 *neither 20:44:48 My distro certainly won't. 20:44:52 Writing my own init will be fun. 20:45:00 actually 20:45:06 Even the uber-minimal BSD-style ones (like BusyBox's which doesn't even support runlevels) use inittabs and stuff. 20:45:06 initrd *are* ext2 20:45:16 so yeah that was right 20:45:21 Mine will be awesome and use shell scripts only! Mwahaha. 20:45:25 AnMaster: so the question is, why symlink it to busybox? 20:45:28 Oh, wait. 20:45:32 Maybe busybox has a linuxrc command 20:45:38 maybe 20:45:39 I was thinking it'd start a shell or whatever 20:45:46 Maybe it treats linuxrc as init 20:45:49 and starts busybox init 20:46:08 ehird, initramfs are gziped cpio archives. initrds are gziped file system images 20:46:14 according to wikipedia 20:46:34 Are you sure that linuxrc is initrd? 20:46:44 Pretty sure it's just an old name for the init process thingy. 20:46:46 yes that I'm certain of 20:46:48 of course 20:46:52 it could have other usages 20:46:55 AnMaster: Are you sure that it isn't that initrd starts via linuxrc? 20:46:57 ehird, I would have expected /linuxrc to be a shell script 20:47:03 ehird, hm? 20:47:06 I wouldn't; it wasn't on my fucked up Debian netbook thing. 20:47:08 "Once the initial root file system is up, the kernel executes /linuxrc as its first process. When it exits, the kernel assumes that the real root file system has been mounted and executes "/sbin/init" to begin the normal user-space boot process." 20:47:15 I said /linuxrc is initrd 20:47:17 all along 20:47:17 Well, whatever. 20:47:22 Yes, I know. 20:47:50 debian netbook? Oh the one where you were dumped into root login? 20:48:19 Yeah. 20:52:20 Incidentally, configuring a kernel is tiring. 20:52:35 It's hard to set up a good environment to bootstrap a distro... 20:52:46 ehird, first one on a given hardware yes. After that you can just do make oldconfig to check for changes usually 20:52:48 I wonder if I could write an init and drop it in my Arch fs and have it wor 20:53:06 AnMaster: I'm not configuring for specific hardware, it's for my distro. 20:53:08 and the occasional make menuconfig when you need to change some specific setting 20:53:15 ehird, ah, general. Most as m then? 20:53:25 Most as m? 20:56:13 ehird, yeah. Modules 20:56:27 AnMaster: No modules. 20:56:36 oh? 20:56:45 so then all drivers are built in 20:56:46 right 20:56:48 XD 20:56:51 Not all, just a small amount. 20:57:01 ehird, wasteful though 20:57:10 No it isn't, there's going to be barely anything in there. 20:57:17 It'll be smaller than any kernel you're running, almost certainly. 20:57:34 For instance, none of the big ELF code... just uber-simple a.out. That's a pretty big drop right there. 20:57:48 ehird, probably. But that means it will be limited to a few hardware options 20:57:52 No support for 83429239487234 filesystems... just JFS (the main filesystem), FAT, ext and a few others. 20:57:56 AnMaster: No, I'm going generic. 20:58:04 The main non-generic hardware driver you need is for graphics. 20:58:06 ehird, generic SATA drivers? 20:58:08 So I'll have packages for that. 20:58:15 kernel-nvidia, kernel-radeonhd, etc. 20:58:23 ehird, what about SATA? 20:58:37 AnMaster: SATA I'll probably include the drivers that do best with the most common hardware. 20:58:44 * AnMaster needs the VIA SATA stuff for example on his desktop. And AHCI on the laptop. 20:59:04 It won't be very hard to add your own, since the build environment stuff will be easily downloadable so it's just a quick menuconfig and then using my mkfile to build the package. 20:59:08 But I'll include a few. 20:59:22 I estimate the kernel will be something like 5 MiB. 21:00:05 Hmm, less. 21:00:17 My Arch kernel here is 601 KiB + 1.8 MiB 21:00:22 (kernel26.img and vmlinuz26) 21:00:36 ehird, arch does use modules though 21:00:41 That's true. 21:00:47 ehird, also with modules built in you won't need any initrd 21:00:48 I was giving a lot of credence to my major minimalist powers. 21:00:53 AnMaster: Yep, I won't have any 21:00:56 Straight to init 21:00:58 like on my desktop. No initrd there 21:01:09 ehird, unless you want harddisk encryption or lvm or such 21:01:13 but I bet you don't 21:01:25 I might include disk encryption. 21:01:41 I might have a tool to compile and install a kernel with predefined configurations. 21:01:44 Like 21:01:47 *Like: 21:02:15 # mkkernel encryption radeonhd 21:02:30 And that'll add a package to your system called kernel-encryption-radeonhd. 21:02:33 (Sorted alphabetically.) 21:02:43 And become the kernel. 21:02:47 (/bin/kernel) 21:03:05 Basically like Gentoo's USE flags, but on a much smaller scale and just for the kernel. 21:03:37 I don't plan to support too much, though; LVM is quite unlikely. 21:03:39 ehird, interesting idea 21:03:44 Especially since you can't shrink JFS anyway. 21:03:54 (Which is a shame, but I haven't found something as good as JFS in other areas.) 21:03:59 ehird, encryption of / does however require an initrd/initramfs 21:04:10 AnMaster: Or a separate boot partition. 21:04:20 ehird, _and_ a separate boot partition 21:04:23 Hmm. 21:04:25 Well, I'll see. 21:04:32 I can probably make a tiny tiny stub initramfs. 21:04:37 ehird, after all, the boot loader has to be able to load the initrd from somewhere 21:05:30 or you could have a user space /boot/decrypt-and-init and then have /boot as the original root fs and do some strange mount tricks... Oh and you would need to use init=/decrypt-and-init on the kernel command line 21:05:30 Anyway, for a stock configuration, including X11 and window manager startup (login skipped; window manager will probably be dwm, so, minimalist), as soon as lilo hands over to the kernel, I expect to be able to finish boot in 2 seconds. 21:05:34 and possibly some other stuff 21:05:42 (initrd is a less hackish solution then) 21:05:48 On an SSD? Let's say 1.6 seconds. 21:06:05 AnMaster: initrd is ext2 only, though, isn't it? Does it work if just the boot partition is ext2 only, I wonder? 21:06:29 ehird, hm? initrd is an ext2 file system image that is gzip compressed 21:06:37 Right, that's what I meant. 21:06:44 as for /boot, it could be some other fs supported by the boot loader 21:06:45 You can read the initrd from a JFS partition, yes? 21:06:46 Right. 21:06:49 as long as it isn't encrypted 21:06:53 lilo supports JFS, which is nice. 21:07:31 ehird, about that "boot to other OS". grub-reboot maybe? 21:07:42 man page says it does that 21:07:49 oh and grub2 is missing it XD 21:07:55 Probably. Looks quite new, anyway. 21:08:04 I believe lilo has had it for a decade or whatever. 21:08:19 ehird, btw you know that karmic is using grub2 by default? 21:08:22 Yes. 21:08:39 Following Debian, presumably. 21:08:41 -!- fax has left (?). 21:08:48 ehird, yeah probably 21:08:56 ehird, opinions on "Ubuntu One"? 21:09:12 Ubuntu One isn't as good as Dropbox, and FUCK THEM for using the Ubuntu name. 21:09:17 Dropbox 21:09:19 oops 21:09:33 ehird, about from the dropbox bit (which I never tried): agreed 21:09:38 Dropbox, for instance, has the feature "can access your files on obscure OSs like Windows and OS X". 21:09:40 * AnMaster looks up dropbox 21:10:00 Ubuntu One is just a ripoff of Dropbox with less features and without supporting other OSs. 21:10:10 ehird, how much space do you get with dropbox no cost version or such? 21:10:14 2 GiB. 21:10:22 Same as Ubuntu One. 21:10:25 indeed 21:10:31 If you invite other people, set up other machines, blah blah blah, Dropbox rewards you with some more. 21:10:36 Can get almost 3 GiB or something that way. 21:10:40 You know, if you're a huge cheapskate. 21:10:43 I hate that sort of referral scheme, it makes me avoid a company 21:10:49 because, it means I can't trust peer reviews of the company 21:10:55 if people are bribed to say good things about it 21:11:00 then, I can't trust them as much 21:11:01 Only if you think your friends are really, really scammy 21:11:18 People who aren't massive assholes go "Hey, if you sign up for this I get some more blah" 21:11:36 If it's on a website or whatever, just look to see if it's a referral link and if so ignoore the review. 21:11:38 Simple. 21:11:56 Anyway, it's not just referring (and it only lets you refer a few, not continuously). 21:12:10 There's other things like "put our client on your other machines" blah blah. It's not worth the effort though. 21:12:27 ehird, on other machines? Like all your computers? 21:12:34 As many as you want. 21:12:50 Incidentally, lilo has more eyecandy than GRUB 1, I think. 21:12:54 well. If I used such a service I would likely want it on all of mine 21:13:03 ehird, that feels sooo backwards XD 21:13:09 You can set up a menu grid instead of a list so you can use the bitmap background to have a fancy graphical menu. 21:13:14 so grub1 is the minimalist option? 21:13:19 Position your own countdown timer. etc. 21:13:22 AnMaster: No, lilo is smaller. 21:13:28 It just does it all with less code. 21:13:34 ehird, hooray for gnu! 21:13:36 or something 21:13:39 Besides, none of this stuff gets added to your MBR unless you enable it. 21:14:30 Incidentally, lilo doesn't use the "boot: " interface by default; it uses a GRUB-style menu. 21:14:54 I think GRUB 1 can do higher-resolution things, though; lilo only supports a paltry 640x480x8 bitmap! 21:14:54 the "don't have to remember to rerun the lilo command after a kernel update" bit and "option to edit the commend line" bit are important to me 21:15:07 ehird, what about password protection for booting recovery kernel? 21:15:14 AnMaster: The former will be handled by my distro, the latter, I believe, you can just enter into the boot: prompt 21:15:15 like the one with init=/bin/busybox 21:15:20 Like boot: and enterr a lilo line. Whatever. 21:15:24 Doesn't bother me, so I don't care. 21:15:31 AnMaster: I think it has password protection. 21:15:33 *enter 21:15:34 ah 21:15:55 "menu-scheme=Wm intense white on magenta" 21:15:59 I think I will pass on that colour scheme 21:15:59 ehird, password required to edit the boot line is all I want. 21:16:03 ehird, XD 21:16:06 why Wm btw? 21:16:15 KBGCRMYW 21:16:20 Upper case for intense. 21:16:20 ah colour codes 21:16:21 W = white 21:16:24 m = magenta 21:16:36 K ? 21:16:46 Black, probably. 21:16:48 Yes. 21:16:50 CYMK. 21:16:50 Isn't that the usual. 21:16:52 AnMaster: You can do password= 21:16:55 in an image 21:17:03 ehird, I always wondered. Why does CMYK has Y for black 21:17:08 It doesn't 21:17:10 err 21:17:10 It has K for black 21:17:12 I mean K 21:17:16 And because B is blue 21:17:18 ehird, off by three keys 21:17:18 blacK 21:17:21 "The “K” in CMYK stands for key since in four-color printing cyan, magenta, and yellow printing plates are carefully keyed or aligned with the key of the black key plate. Some sources suggest that the “K” in CMYK comes from the last letter in "black" and was chosen because B already means blue.[1][2] However, this explanation, though plausible and useful as a mnemonic, is likely inaccurate, the speculative invention of authors unfamiliar with traditio 21:17:21 nal printing technology." 21:17:22 ehird, ah 21:17:29 Oh, or that. 21:17:41 fizzie, what do they suggest instead? 21:17:51 The “K” in CMYK stands for key since in four-color printing cyan, magenta, and yellow printing plates are carefully keyed or aligned with the key of the black key plate. 21:17:54 Like it, you know, said. 21:17:54 Key, like it says there. 21:18:02 fizzie, ah 21:18:12 I wonder why people like their init to spew out a ton of crap. 21:18:27 Is it because they have so much crap that they like to see how far along their ages-long boot is? 21:18:38 ehird: "Watching shit scroll by for hours makes me a Linux expert overnight." 21:18:39 Personally I'd only like to be bothered when something went wrong. 21:18:48 fizzie: Yep, but every distro seems to do it 21:18:48 ehird, when things go wrong you can easily see where? 21:18:51 Apart from those newfangled graphical boots 21:19:06 AnMaster: Have those kids never heard of `if ! blah; then echo OMG BLAH FAILED; fi`? 21:19:23 ehird, what if the kernel freezes early on in some unexpected way 21:19:28 it's probably so that if the kernel locks hard, you can see what the last successful operation was 21:19:31 thus, what was the last line before that printed 21:19:33 and guess what operation failed as a result 21:19:34 ais523, as I said yes :P 21:19:35 AnMaster: I'm talking about in init 21:19:45 By that point a fucked-up kernel lockup is probably quite unlikely 21:19:47 ehird, oh it is just colourful messages here 21:19:48 like 21:19:52 And if it does, good luck debugging it! 21:19:57 * Starting sshd [ OK ] 21:19:59 and so on 21:20:00 I know 21:20:03 It's pretty pointless 21:20:12 ehird, the colours are pretty? 21:20:28 Set a pretty image as your desktop so the 2-second boot gets to it :-P 21:20:37 You could even animate it. 21:20:42 ehird, with a 2 second boot it would be fairly pointless 21:20:46 Yeah. 21:20:51 And as far as kernel lockups go... 21:20:59 Just add it as a boot option. 21:21:15 You could even add "Awesomedistro (debug kernel lockup)" or whatever as a lilo entry. 21:21:21 ehird, is there anything wrong with those early kernel messages being printed though? 21:21:23 Make your init a Mandelbrot zoomer, advances a bit every time something happens. You can then tell from the shape where it hangs up if something goes wrong. 21:21:25 It's just superfluous 21:21:32 ehird, does it *hurt* anyone? 21:21:38 It takes up time and effort that could be spent speeding up the boot 21:21:45 fizzie, XD 21:21:47 Literally time; those prints are so expensive. :P 21:21:52 (not) 21:21:56 But seriously, it's just — 21:22:06 I was just asking if there's a justifiable point apart from watching shit scroll by. 21:22:19 ehird, you want just a single like like: "Loading ...." 21:22:21 Since the only reason is an early kernel hangup, and you can easily just force the kernel to spew a lot, I guess I'll disable it. 21:22:23 or something like that 21:22:24 AnMaster: Maybe a few more. 21:22:30 Like: 21:22:42 ehird, oh like "we go to init" "starting GUI"? 21:22:45 Yeah. 21:22:47 Pretty much. 21:23:03 ehird, better messages: 21:23:08 Loading kernel... 21:23:14 lol 21:23:17 Yay! time for init and we are still alive! 21:23:18 I had written that as my first! 21:23:21 haha 21:23:44 Loading messages... 21:23:47 Phew, we almost made it, just the GUI left. Pray for X working well for once! 21:23:56 "Oh god, I'm bleeding, FUCK, fuck, get me to a doctor... my la-ast wish... is... to... start X11... farew-well... know me as...b-boot p-p... proc-cess..HYUAAAAAAAAAAAGhhgj" 21:24:02 Good luck 21:24:14 ais523, nice one XD 21:24:26 printk("Printing this message...\n"); 21:24:35 or "Starting X. Good luck. (You will need it!)" 21:25:15 "You've started X11 successfully 10 times in a row. As a precaution, I will drop you to a single-user shell to fix the problems you will have this time." 21:25:19 # 21:25:24 ehird, haha 21:25:46 New device detected since last boot. Please remove it and reboot. 21:25:54 ehird, hehe 21:26:27 ehird, addendum to that. 21:26:34 fizzie: I like that mandelbrot init idea, by the way 21:26:47 "Lucky it isn't Windows eh? They would would have had to re-activate" 21:26:50 :P 21:27:04 AnMaster: Hey! Just use Linux Genuine Advantage. 21:27:08 heh 21:27:11 *Linux Genuine 21:27:29 ehird, btw. if you are going to do hardware detection it will slow you down 21:27:46 I'll probably do some cursory detection, but nothing much. 21:27:50 * ehird wonders how he could do dependency-based asynchronous init with just an rc script 21:28:02 Maybe I'll load all the start scripts at once 21:28:09 and the depending scripts just check environment variables 21:28:11 ehird, you need a service supervisor though 21:28:12 in a loop 21:28:17 of *some* kind 21:28:31 and using a script for that would be bloated I suspect 21:28:35 A vague term; can you clarify just so we're on the same page? 21:29:20 ehird, something to try to restart critical services if they go down (and give up after some fixed number of retries in a short time period) 21:29:39 ehird, like upstart does. Or sysvinit does 21:29:48 I don't think BSD inits do that 21:29:58 or even daemontools (I remember reading someone managed to use daemontools for init!) 21:30:01 besides, it can't be very critical if you can run enough code to restart them 21:30:05 AnMaster: daemontools is an init replacement... 21:30:08 (among other things) 21:30:16 ehird, usually it isn't used as that though 21:30:22 It's meant to be,t hough 21:30:23 *, though 21:30:28 that isn't the same thing 21:30:29 hm 21:30:35 Incidentally, here's my wonderful shutdown command: 21:30:38 # kill -QUIT 1 21:30:55 ehird, and it tells services to shut down cleanly then? 21:31:08 Runs /etc/rc.stop and then halts 21:31:26 ehird, and rc.stop sends SIGTERM and such to processes needing it? 21:31:35 ehird, what about kexec? Oh wait I guess not 21:32:06 Yeah; runs all the shutdown-service things, kills every process other than the ones needed to do this, waits until they all respond, kill -9s the rest, and turns ogg 21:32:07 *off 21:32:12 dropbox requires gnome? 21:32:13 huh 21:32:14 No 21:32:17 Dropboxd does 21:32:19 erm 21:32:20 doesn't 21:32:23 the nautilus integration does, though 21:32:28 admittedly at the moment it is the only client 21:32:29 :P 21:32:32 the protocol is open though 21:32:32 ehird, can't it just use fuse or such 21:32:40 You can use the folder as-is 21:32:53 because dropbox is like useless to me if I can't use it on my headless computers too 21:32:54 (It doesn't use FUSE) it's synchronization 21:32:57 so it needs to be on disk 21:33:01 ehird, hm 21:33:13 ehird, there goes the idea of *extra* storage space :P 21:33:25 Just disable dropboxd and remove the directory after syncing :P 21:33:36 AnMaster: Anyway, process 1 will be the thing that does the actual halting 21:33:51 After /etc/rc.stop closes it'll have kill -9'd everything else so it'll just be process 1 and whatever the kernel's running chilling about 21:33:53 ehird, yeah I believe that is already the case 21:33:58 Yeah 21:34:14 ehird, no kexec support I assume? 21:34:26 I might have it 21:34:52 AnMaster: what signal do you think I should use that instead of halting reboots? 21:35:07 actually, I'm unsure whether shutting down should be QUIT or TERM 21:35:19 ehird, what about suspend to ram/disk? 21:35:22 I'm leaning towards quit because # kill 1 working without warning seems dangerous 21:35:30 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:35:38 AnMaster: Probably USR1 and USR2 21:35:50 with a shell script that does that called suspend_ram or something 21:35:55 ehird: SIGQUIT is supposed to create core dumps 21:35:57 ehird, what about SIGVTALRM? Or SIGRTMAX 21:35:57 (USR1 for RAM, USR2 for disk) 21:36:00 or at least, does on most Unices 21:36:03 (nonsense suggestions btw) 21:36:04 ais523: ah, wasn't aware 21:36:16 ehird, ooh idea for restart... SIGCONT 21:36:18 heh 21:36:20 you do it with C-\ if a program isn't responding to C-c 21:36:26 from the keyboard 21:36:30 ehird, "continue after reboot" 21:36:32 or to interrupt a program to get a core dump 21:36:37 AnMaster: that'd be suspend to disk + reboot 21:36:47 ehird, however, normally SIGCONT is for the bg/fg commands 21:36:51 after you used Ctrl-Z 21:36:55 I should let you do "fg 1" 21:36:56 :D 21:36:59 and press ^C to shut down 21:37:06 I don't think you can intercept SIGCONT in fact 21:37:15 ehird, doesn't work like that 21:37:18 I know 21:37:22 I meant specialcase it 21:37:30 you can handle SIGCONT 21:37:31 fg is a shell thingy and related to shell job control 21:37:34 ais523, you can? 21:37:35 the stuff happens after you're continued 21:37:39 heh 21:37:39 ais523, oh right 21:37:43 obviously, you have to be running in order to handle it 21:37:48 ais523, when does SIGSTOP happen? 21:37:52 or can't you handle it? 21:37:54 straight away 21:38:00 you can handle SIGTSTP, though 21:38:05 which is generated by C-z 21:38:12 # kill -9 1 will force a hard shutdown, I think. 21:38:19 without any process killing or anything 21:38:20 ais523, sure SIGSTOP is NOT Ctrl-Z? 21:38:29 AnMaster: Ctrl-Z generates SIGTSTP 21:38:31 you know, when you're too lazy to hold down the power button 21:38:35 which does the same as SIGSTOP by default 21:38:40 but which /can/ be handled or interrupted 21:38:48 (whereas SIGSTOP can't be) 21:38:55 well, handled or masked 21:38:56 ais523, ah 21:39:07 SIGWINCH discard signal Window size change 21:39:13 this is clearly for "change framebuffer console resolution" 21:39:19 ehird, ... you only hold down power button when you can't do it the normal way :P 21:39:28 AnMaster: Or if you're lazy. 21:39:40 Admittedly it doesn't matter if a regular shutdown only takes, like, a second. 21:39:41 ehird, yeah. But well that joke is rather twisted 21:40:00 ehird, and holding down power button takes like 10 seconds on my computer 21:40:01 Assume some bloated Ubuntu thingy that takes 30 seconds to shutdown :P 21:40:06 20 SECONDS ARE PRECIOUS 21:40:15 SIGWINCH is for console apps 21:40:21 ais523: I'm joking, man :| 21:40:21 they get it if someone resizes the window they're running in 21:40:28 yep 21:40:31 it doesn't have an argument to say the new size 21:40:34 it's just a notification 21:40:35 doesn't kill refuse to send signals to process 1? 21:40:47 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:40:52 um 21:40:55 did he just try? XD 21:41:27 This command meets appropriate standards. 21:41:35 umm, normally the man pages say /which/ standards 21:41:36 AnMaster: who knows 21:41:59 ais523, yeah XD 21:42:14 kill(2) man page: 21:42:16 ais523, the table in that man page is fucked up 21:42:16 NOTES 21:42:16 The only signals that can be sent to process ID 1, the init process, are those for which init has explicitly installed signal handlers. This is done to assure the system is not brought down accidentally. 21:42:33 example: 21:42:37 21:42:39 $ slock --help 21:42:39 usage: slock [-v] 21:42:41 err 21:42:42 fail 21:42:46 * AnMaster stabs synergy 21:42:49 Name Num Action Description 21:42:49 () () 21:42:49 0 0 n/a exit code indicates if a signal may be sent 21:42:51 there we go 21:42:54 21:42:57 and 21:43:03 there were multiple blank lines 21:43:04 in there 21:43:06 -!- ehird has joined. 21:43:08 that were stripped on paste 21:43:12 ehird, trilled killing init? 21:43:21 launchd, to be precise 21:43:23 doesn't kill refuse to send signals to process 1? 21:43:23 * ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection) 21:43:24 yeah 21:43:32 NOTES 21:43:32 The only signals that can be sent to process ID 1, the init process, are those for which init has explicitly installed signal handlers. This is done to assure the system is not brought down accidentally. 21:43:39 ehird, there it is explained ^ 21:43:40 it overlaid the shutdown spinner (circling circle thing) over my desktop which froze 21:43:44 for a few seconds 21:43:45 then rebooted 21:43:46 so basically 21:43:48 the launchd guys 21:43:51 had my same idea <3 21:44:05 heh 21:44:13 what signal did you kill init /with/? 21:44:21 sudo kill init 21:44:22 so TERM 21:44:24 erm 21:44:25 sudo kill 1 21:44:30 it's not init 21:44:31 it's launchd 21:44:32 ffs 21:44:42 ehird: upstart isn't init either 21:44:46 = init, cron, inetd, etc etc etc 21:44:47 but it's called init in the process table 21:44:50 yes, but upstart is distinct 21:44:53 and launchd is called launchd in the table 21:44:58 (upstart iis distinct from cron etc atm) 21:44:59 *is 21:45:22 tbh writing an init isn't hard 21:45:31 everything's set up and cushy 21:45:34 It is distinct from cron so far, though: 21:45:36 "Will Upstart replace cron, atd or anacron? 21:45:36 Yes. A planned feature for Upstart is the ability to generate events at a particular scheduled time, regular scheduled time or particular timed intervals." 21:45:43 like I said 21:45:48 But they're not planning on adding inetd bits into it. 21:46:02 Well, it says "Maybe" there. 21:46:25 and they suggest that dbus is trying to replace init 21:46:28 iirc 21:46:30 who even uses cron without meaning anacron? 21:46:35 ehird, me? 21:46:40 why? 21:46:46 ehird, I use cron on servers 21:46:49 not anacron 21:46:50 "do this thing at this time but if you can't GIVE UP COMPLETELY" 21:46:57 there aren't many operations that make sense there 21:47:39 ehird, anyway why does ubuntu start both cron and anacron 21:47:41 hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacron#Drawbacks okay that's pretty bad 21:47:44 AnMaster: see my link 21:47:50 seems like anacron is very limited 21:48:22 I wonder if it's the responsibility of the shutdown procedure to call sync(1) 21:48:29 (or equivalent) 21:48:30 um I have tasks running every few hours 21:48:40 eh? 21:48:43 in vixie-cron 21:48:51 "Anacron is not an attempt to make cron redundant. It cannot be used to schedule commands at intervals smaller than days" 21:48:53 "anacron can only run tasks once a day (or less often such as weekly or monthly). In contrast, cron allows tasks to run as often as every minute (but does not guarantee their execution if the system goes down). In practice, this is not usually an issue, since it is rare to have a task that must be guaranteed to run more often than (at least) once a day" 21:48:57 THAT'S WHAT I LINKED TO 21:48:58 ffs 21:49:05 that's why ubuntu starts cron as well 21:49:08 ehird, yes exactly! 21:49:10 *starts cron 21:49:15 so why did you repeat my link 21:49:17 I was *agreeing* with you 21:49:24 weirdly 21:49:24 and I was commenting upon a specific line 21:49:40 ... Anacron can only run tasks once a day? 21:49:44 *facepalm* 21:49:54 Every time Anacron is run, it reads a configuration file that specifies the jobs Anacron controls, and their periods in days. If a job wasn't executed in the last n days, where n is the period of that job, Anacron executes it. Anacron then records the date in a special timestamp file that it keeps for each job, so it can know when to run it again. When all the executed commands terminate, Anacron exits. 21:50:11 i thought it just logged when it ran a regular cron command, and then if there are missing log entries, ran them then and logged it 21:50:17 that design is stupid 21:50:22 agreed 21:50:36 * AnMaster loves vixie-cron 21:51:17 crontabs suck though 21:51:20 Vixie cron is nice in that it doesn't do anything particularly dumb. 21:51:30 Well, given the constraints of crontab format, that is. 21:51:59 "Remember me from months ago? You've forgotten what I look like, don't I? BETTER GOOGLE FOR IT" 21:52:04 crontabs suck though <-- how so? 21:52:15 also no 21:52:19 I have a comment on top 21:52:20 sec 21:52:24 AnMaster: The specific file format is rather arcane and hard to remember. 21:52:29 # m h dom mon dow command 21:52:34 that at the top of the file 21:52:35 A comment on top shouldn't be needed to remember the format. 21:52:37 is all you need 21:52:40 pikhq, that is true 21:52:44 pikhq, it is terse though 21:52:56 rather than some multi-line bind style config 21:53:00 The /etc/passwd file suffers from the same issue, but that at least isn't something that non-programs need to mess with. 21:53:11 I can't really get rid of crontab, but I can get rid of /etc/fstab 21:53:23 ehird, you can? 21:53:27 Yep 21:53:30 what the hell is wrong with fstab 21:53:33 By rewriting mount a bit, I presume. 21:53:33 that is easy to remember 21:53:38 Exactly the same that's wrong with crontab 21:53:56 And being glad that very few things interact *directly* with fstab. 21:53:59 device mountpoint fs options dump pass 21:54:04 easy to remember 21:54:07 The main use of fstab is just to mount things on boot, so guess what that'll become? 21:54:17 Lines in a shell script in /etc/rc.d calling mount(1). 21:54:27 ehird, less terse? 21:54:30 I have some thoughts for handling the "mount /dev/foo" case, but I have to mull on them. 21:54:35 AnMaster: About the same, really. 21:54:39 Maybe a few more characters. Doesn't matter. 21:54:41 ehird: Fuse, perhaps? 21:54:42 It's significantly simpler. 21:54:55 pikhq: How does FUSE help there? 21:55:06 You can mount as a normal user with FUSE. 21:55:13 Oh, that's not what I meant 21:55:14 ehird, you use fuse to create a virtual /media directory! 21:55:22 AnMaster: /mnt 21:55:23 with auto adding stuff according to an XML config 21:55:29 AnMaster: AAAAAGH. 21:55:29 pikhq: I meant mount knowing where to mount devices 21:55:32 and their FS type, etc 21:55:37 pikhq, yeah I was joking 21:55:41 ehird: Oh, that. Yeah. 21:55:58 Also, any support for FUSE I have will probably be via translation to 9P. 21:56:08 pikhq, gnome vfs seems like that to me 21:56:12 I'll reuse the FUSE library, and translate however it talks to the kernel module into 9P. 21:56:31 Probably already been done. If not, it should be easy to do. 21:56:44 The FUSE library supports multiple kernels by now. 21:56:51 Hopefully the kernel has good 9P support, because the only other options use FUSE. 21:57:03 ehird, btw I don't think llvm/clang supports a.out 21:57:06 just FYI 21:57:11 and gcc itself probably doesn't 21:57:14 I mean 21:57:17 gcc did until a recent 4.x version 21:57:18 being compiled to a.out 21:57:20 very recent 21:57:23 oh 21:57:23 AnMaster: LLVM should at least be easy to retarget. 21:57:24 hmm 21:57:27 are you sure 21:57:30 (being designed with that in mind and all.) 21:57:33 wrt compiling gcc into an a.out 21:57:44 ehird, not sure. Just sounds like something I heard someone mention once 21:57:52 some year or two ago 21:58:04 At least my Arch /etc/fstab is nicely simple 21:58:14 The main line is just "/dev/sda1 / jfs defaults 0 1" 21:58:15 ehird, by uuid? 21:58:17 XD 21:58:22 Nope 21:58:28 ehird, ah but what if other disks are plugged in! 21:58:38 Then let's just hope they become /etc/sdb. 21:58:45 erm 21:58:46 /dev 21:58:59 I'm not using udev, so hopefully I can find a quite stable devfs. 21:59:43 ehird, devfs is no longer supported with recent kernels 21:59:47 it is static of udev 21:59:51 or* 22:00:00 Then maybe I'll use static. 22:01:57 When looking around the kernel config options I had a horrible dilemma. 22:02:17 Heap randomisation 22:02:17 Pros: More secure 22:02:17 Cons: Makes kernel bigger, BREAKS LIBC5 BINARIES 22:03:03 Libc5? Meh, who needs it? 22:03:06 ;p 22:03:19 But, static binaries should work for decades! 22:03:41 On a somewhat more serious note, I do have at least one libc5 binary. 22:04:02 Anyway, heap randomisation as a security feature made me think of OpenBSD almost instantly. 22:04:08 It's the kind of thing they'd do, isn't it... 22:04:16 Only Playstation 1 emulator I could get to work used Libc5. And was a binary. 22:04:20 Hmm, it also breaks position dependent code, doesn't it :P 22:04:21 ehird: Yeah, they do that. 22:04:38 Instead of the first five fields, one of eight special strings may 22:04:39 appear: 22:04:39 string meaning 22:04:39 ------ ------- 22:04:40 @reboot Run once, at startup. 22:04:40 —Vixie crontab 22:04:49 Also, you can do position-independent staticly linked binaries. ;p 22:05:02 HAY UNPRIVILEGED USER! I'M TOTALLY INIT 22:05:05 Use meeeeeeeeeeeeeee 22:12:45 -!- coppro has joined. 22:13:33 Does at(1) run the commands at the time you specify, or could it be some minutes late? 22:15:49 not sure, at's been broken for months on ubuntu 22:16:46 I'm wondering how to do a good clock in dwm; xsetroot -name foo changes the top-right text 22:17:04 and I want to update it on the 0th second of every minute (give or take some seconds) without using CPU 22:18:00 # A still more glorious dawn awaits: not sunrise, but a galaxyrise. A morning filled with 400 billion suns; the rising of the Milky Way. # -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc 22:18:19 old 22:18:22 I linked that like a month ago 22:18:25 On a somewhat more serious note, I do have at least one libc5 binary. <-- what huh? 22:18:30 maybe where I got it from 22:18:31 He explains a few lines down. 22:18:37 hm 22:18:38 right 22:18:39 I wonder what libc4 is like. 22:18:45 ehird, I do your style of log reading :P 22:18:51 I learned a lot from you 22:18:58 It's remarkably rewarding! 22:19:03 Like everyone has the exact same questions as you. 22:19:04 :P 22:19:18 Hmm, it also breaks position dependent code, doesn't it :P <-- um no? 22:19:34 that would be data/code segment randomisation 22:19:35 Hmm, right 22:19:37 rather than heap 22:19:40 hmm ... this evening; that video does not make me start crying 22:19:45 s/;/,/ 22:19:48 heap is for malloc and such 22:19:57 I forgot just how hardcore the http://mastodon.biz/ author is 22:20:05 "I'm trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28" 22:20:10 you have to be pretty badass to even consider thtat 22:20:14 *that 22:20:22 HAY UNPRIVILEGED USER! I'M TOTALLY INIT <-- the @reboot thing? Yes very useful. I use it to start some irc bots for example 22:20:39 Why not just have ~/.rc.start or something 22:20:52 ehird, yet another service to read that? 22:20:57 * ais523 wonders if fakeroot includes faking reboots, etc 22:21:03 No, just have /etc/rc.start do it 22:21:06 Because Unix was designed and then crap got shoveled on. 22:21:15 ehird, and suing to each user? Hm 22:21:19 Making an OS that works but doesn't know what consistency is. 22:21:25 yet another code point that has to be audited for that 22:21:25 It just doesn't seem like the kind of thing cron should do to me 22:21:34 AnMaster: Dude, I trust my init scripts more than cron 22:21:36 (better than the Windows solution of "Fuck design". :P) 22:21:41 Especially since it'd just be a few lines 22:21:43 ehird, cron already done this for ages 22:21:51 for other user crontabs 22:21:53 I don't care, it's still something you "have to audit" 22:21:55 very useful ones 22:22:01 @reboot shouldn't be in cron, it's an init task 22:22:48 # A still more glorious dawn awaits: not sunrise, but a galaxyrise. A morning filled with 400 billion suns; the rising of the Milky Way. # -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc <-- argh now I have that tune on my head again 22:22:51 ehird: I recall that Apple have a program that unifies the run-at-boot things and cron 22:22:56 Yes, launchd 22:23:00 It's too XML 22:23:01 that thing, yeah 22:23:04 And it inexplicably does inetd 22:23:11 ehird, what about plist? 22:23:18 plists are XML nowadays, unfortunately. 22:23:24 Or the binary format. 22:23:26 ehird, oh? they changed format? 22:23:29 Yeah, ages ago. 22:23:30 Years. 22:23:36 It used to be a wonderful JSON-type dealie. 22:23:40 hm 22:24:17 ehird, pretty sure they were binary blobs yeah 22:24:28 Nope 22:24:28 the ones I seen that is 22:24:34 That's one of the new formats 22:24:37 yeah 22:24:38 They used to be almost identical to JSON 22:24:40 and it was lovely. 22:24:42 ehird, since tiger? 22:24:47 I think Panther. 22:24:50 ah 22:24:51 ehird: Ah, the days of a sane format for plist. 22:25:03 ehird, well, tiger is the only OS X version I used 22:25:06 When men were men, women were men and plists weren't XML. 22:25:10 The thing about XML is that everywhere has libraries that do all the parsing for you. 22:25:19 SimonRC: It is very dark. 22:25:21 You are in #esoteric. 22:25:25 You are about to defend XML. 22:25:28 You are likely to be eaten by a grue. 22:25:29 > 22:25:30 SimonRC, are you trying to defend... XML? 22:25:39 I am saying it can be practical 22:25:43 >defend xml 22:25:47 You are eaten by a Grue. 22:25:52 > 22:25:58 OTOH, almost everywhere has JSON parsers too 22:26:02 SimonRC: The thing about XML is that it has no advantages over JSON and many disadvantages. 22:26:04 >backtrack slightly 22:26:05 SimonRC, too late now 22:26:10 The Grue fails to reverse entropy and you stay eatetn. 22:26:13 *eaten 22:26:14 > 22:26:15 (for generic object serialisation, that is) 22:26:25 And XML is not designed at *all* for what it's generally used for. 22:26:33 what about html? 22:26:34 * SimonRC tries to recalls what teh JSON equivalent of xpath is 22:26:35 It's meant to just do markup. 22:26:38 * AnMaster watches ehird's reaction 22:26:42 AnMaster: aiee 22:26:43 pikhq: damn right 22:26:48 ehird, aiee? 22:26:52 And it's pretty bad at markup too 22:26:58 AnMaster: HTML for object serialisation? 22:27:00 you're a nutter 22:27:07 ehird, oh hah I didn't even think about that 22:27:08 ehird: But it at least does the job without making me want to go and kill everyone. 22:27:09 why is it people confuse an explanation with a justification? 22:27:12 I meant in general 22:27:12 :P 22:27:31 ehird, you are the nutter who even thought I could have meant that 22:27:31 SimonRC: AVOIDING MIND INFECTION 22:27:39 It's good to be a nutter! 22:27:56 Incidentally, a good rule of thumb: 22:27:58 SimonRC, what is xpath good for? 22:28:06 AnMaster: the work I do 22:28:15 that is not what I meant 22:28:27 as in, what does it do, that is useful and harder with other ways 22:28:41 Your program is to serve the user. Everything they make with it is theirs, not yours. Therefore, all your formats must either be well-known (if you must be compatible with other tools without translating) or minimalist and plain text (or binary if you really must). 22:28:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpath This seems like a solution in search of a problem. 22:29:07 xml 22:29:08 query 22:29:11 Something like XML just takes the user's work away from them; it wraps their format in something they don't care about or want, and forces them to trawl through it to get their data out. In effect, the barrier to EXIT is high. 22:29:13 language‽ 22:29:24 So, don't use XML. 22:29:25 yay XML as a relational db! 22:29:31 AnMaster: It's not that, it's for traversing the tree. 22:29:37 ehird, ah *phew* 22:29:38 ehird: well, let's see... 22:29:39 Think of it like CSS selectors 22:29:41 but with worse syntacx 22:29:44 *syntax 22:29:49 And more powerful 22:29:55 It's not all that bad 22:29:56 no simple code samples there on wikipedia 22:30:00 what were they thinking of :( 22:30:01 there is internal data, which isn't for users, and there is external data, which the users requested be XML 22:30:14 http://www.w3schools.com/XPath/xpath_syntax.asp 22:30:20 w3schools is evil 22:30:22 but those examples are good 22:30:29 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:30:32 SimonRC: By user, I mean people 22:30:40 ehird, yeah because it is used as a db there? 22:30:53 /bookstore/book[price>35.00] Selects all the book elements of the bookstore element that have a price element with a value greater than 35.00 22:30:55 um 22:30:56 lets see 22:30:58 Want as in want as humans, not as in want for compatibility, or because of corporate bear-ocracy 22:30:59 xpath is good for processing heirarchical data (the details of XML don't leak in much) the same way regexes are good for processing text 22:31:00 -!- coppro has joined. 22:31:16 SELECT * from bootstore.book WHERE price > 35.00 ? 22:31:21 something similar to that at least 22:31:21 XML has stylesheets 22:31:28 AnMaster: You could make filesystem paths into SQL too 22:31:30 doesn't prove anythiing 22:31:34 my SQL is getting rusty 22:31:58 AnMaster: yeah, that is about it 22:32:07 ah, awesome is indeed a fork of dwm 22:32:11 /bookstore/book[price>35.00]/title <-- SELECT title FROM bootstore.book where price > 35.00 ? 22:32:18 ehird, with added lua 22:32:21 how ironic 22:32:25 And xcb 22:32:27 And emwh 22:32:29 And xft 22:32:30 And D-Bus 22:32:30 what about CSS :D 22:32:33 And its own multihead 22:32:42 xft is nice. I mean, non-bitmapped fonts 22:32:44 So basically they took dwm and fucked with it until it was bloated 22:32:52 ehird, emwh I have no clue what it is 22:33:01 AnMaster: For the list of workspaces (numbers), the []= diagarm of the current layout, the title bar, and status bar? 22:33:03 Xft is overkill. 22:33:04 and xcb is well, something we probably can't avoid even if we want 22:33:07 It's just a few vetical pixels at the top. 22:33:13 *diagram 22:33:17 More like an ASCII icon tbh 22:33:23 (title bar is global at top of screen) 22:33:23 ehird, hm 22:33:34 ehird, opinion on xfce? 22:33:35 xcb is quite avoidable, use the xlib wrapper over it :-P 22:33:42 (non-tiling indeed) 22:33:49 I like the "bloat" in the multihead sense; though admittedly dwm page says "NEW dwm creates a view for each Xinerama screen". 22:33:51 AnMaster: XFCE seems to try and be Gnome without... well, Gnome. 22:33:56 *Xfce 22:34:03 Do you have a copy of this game on a VHS tape? 22:34:04 ehird, xlib is quite eww unless I misremember. But xcb might be worse. 22:34:13 AnMaster: xcb is lower-level but slightly more sane 22:34:14 Xcb does seem like an improvement over Xlib for what X is commonly used for these days (hardly even touched by anyone other than toolkit authors). 22:34:15 zzo38, context? 22:34:18 but xlib code is easier to understand 22:34:31 AnMaster: I don't think it (Xfce) works; for instance, I quickly get agitated by the lack of configurators for the system 22:34:31 I mean, the game, Super ASCII MZX Town Part II 22:34:38 Harder to use, but less crazy bizarre bugs. 22:34:43 Someone in the game asks for that copy 22:34:45 It's inconsistent to have a GUI to configure the GUI but nothing else, UI-wise 22:34:49 (understandable implementation-wise) 22:34:50 ... 22:35:08 And it seems to basically come down to GNOME with more settings, whereas GNOME's philosophy leads to less settings 22:35:11 So the end result is quite odd 22:35:16 anyone using Debain unstable at the moment? 22:35:18 Beats KDE, though 22:35:20 AnMaster: I don't think it (Xfce) works; for instance, I quickly get agitated by the lack of configurators for the system <-- and you are minimalist! 22:35:32 AnMaster: Confusion is not minimalist. 22:35:34 ehird: XFCE is also more lightweight while having more settings. 22:35:37 Quite odd. 22:35:48 pikhq, or maybe I'll like it 22:35:48 hm 22:35:51 'cause they have a hosed keyboard config app and the upstream fix hasn't come down yet, and I can't downgrade 22:35:51 There's no reason to have GUI configuration and system configuration separate; they're facets of the same thing. 22:36:02 worth trying as replacement for KDE 3.5.10 on my gentoo box 22:36:03 Anyway, dwm uber alles :P 22:36:25 ehird, tried tiling and decided I didn't like it. Probably could get used to it 22:36:29 with lots of work 22:36:33 Most tiling managers suck balls 22:36:35 ehird: not a very unixy attitude 22:36:35 Which did you try? 22:36:43 um 22:36:46 SimonRC: It is, but I cba to explain 22:36:51 depending on what you actually mean 22:36:53 ehird, hm awsome, xmonad and dwm iirc 22:37:03 it was some time ago 22:37:06 a year or so? 22:37:12 maybe slightly less than a year 22:37:13 dwm is the only good one of those, because its layout is the right thing 22:37:21 it has a main window, to the left 22:37:25 ehird, iirc I found dwm most annoying of them 22:37:27 and a stack of secondary windows to the right 22:37:35 AnMaster: The adjustment period is just a few minutes, just stop trying to fight the WM 22:37:36 Uh, that's awesome's default layout too. 22:37:40 fizzie: So? 22:37:45 awesome sucks in other ways 22:37:53 I found the most irritating thing about xmonad was it's freaking crazy configuration scheme. 22:37:56 ehird, oh yeah I tried ratpoison too. 22:37:59 that was like "lol" 22:38:03 And after that was its retarded default bindings. 22:38:05 AnMaster: ratpoison is unusable 22:38:12 ehird, my conclusion too 22:38:12 it's tiling but it doesn't manage the windows for you! 22:38:17 (that conflict with *everything else*) 22:38:17 so it's just a pointless waste of time 22:38:27 AnMaster: One unique one to try might be wmii 22:38:36 It's basically Plan 9's acme for window managers 22:38:57 there's the little knob on the window you can drag to move across columns, resize, etc; you can stack windows so it's just title bars that collapse, it's also controllable by the keyboard 22:39:03 ehird, hm. interesting. Me and acme never agreed with each other though 22:39:04 :/ 22:39:13 AnMaster: It's not acme as far as mouse-only goes 22:39:15 or mouse gestures 22:39:17 just as far as layout goes 22:39:20 ah 22:39:22 interesting 22:39:25 http://wmii.suckless.org/ 22:39:29 Worth a try 22:39:30 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 22:39:32 and it uses dmenu like dwm 22:39:41 so spawning applications, etc is nice 22:39:44 worth a try indeed 22:40:00 ehird, I like a desktop filled with icons though 22:40:03 I can't deny that 22:40:19 wait, people have visible desktop past all their windows? 22:40:21 It's hard to stop liking gratuitous eye-candy 22:40:22 stuff like C99.pdf POSIX.1-2008.pdf 22:40:24 and such 22:40:33 SimonRC, atm I can see a bit of that 22:40:34 AnMaster: you can still use a graphical file manager 22:40:50 ehird, I don't use a file manager *except* for desktop 22:41:00 yeah I'm strange probably 22:41:01 ... File manager? 22:41:07 I never use my desktop 22:41:07 Isn't that what a shell's for? 22:41:18 "A Source Mage spell for the 20070516 wmii snapshot is available. As usual, just type 22:41:18 cast wmii 22:41:18 in a term to install it." 22:41:19 I'd like a hybrid shell/file manager 22:41:20 oh yeah 22:41:22 I had forgot 22:41:28 it's retarded terminology 22:41:32 a graphical file viewer above it, I can double click folders to cd 22:41:38 but keyboard always enters commands 22:41:45 so I can stop doing ls all the time 22:41:47 ehird, try sourcemage. Just for fun in a vm 22:41:51 it is really quite lol 22:41:54 AnMaster: nooo thank-you 22:42:06 ehird: how about keyboard to search the file list 22:42:07 ehird, why not? 22:42:19 SimonRC: maybe tab completion will be done with the graphical list 22:42:41 instead of below the command entry 22:42:47 ehird, it is like LFS in a way. A great experience, but not something you would want to use every day. Quite like going to some far away country as a tourist I expect 22:42:49 AnMaster: because the terminology is enough to put me off 22:42:51 and it's source-based 22:43:02 you wouldn't want to live in Egypt. But seeing the pyramids once. Fun 22:43:08 the feature I would like in bash is the ability to type half a command, do something else, and come back, like you can in irssi 22:43:17 (not that I have been there. Only extrapolating from going to other countries) 22:43:25 SimonRC: I usually hit enter and ctrl-c in quick succession for that 22:43:33 it goes in the history 22:43:38 alternatively 22:43:44 ehird, that is why I said VM :P 22:43:51 Ctrl-a ;# ctrl-a command enter 22:44:08 I use the latter one 22:44:17 the enter and ctrl-c is just too risky 22:44:18 gah, why did people stop using bluecurve 22:44:20 it's a nice theme 22:44:21 for many things 22:44:23 AnMaster: yeah 22:44:30 you should be concentrating when doing risky things. 22:44:31 ehird, bluecurve is a theme for what? 22:44:41 metacity, gnome, kde, ........... 22:44:44 everything, basically 22:44:46 think old redhat theme 22:44:56 http://www.ensode.net/images/tiger_bluecurve.png 22:44:57 ehird, well not risky. But "quite annoying to have to fix it" 22:45:02 ignore the window contents 22:45:06 it's java swing crap 22:45:07 like ./configure long line here 22:45:23 http://sqladmin.sourceforge.net/images/bluecurve.png 22:45:32 older version of iwndow title, butt window contents is the same 22:45:34 *but 22:45:40 yeah 22:45:47 nostalgia 22:45:49 XD 22:46:01 ehird, I forgot when that was 22:46:10 redhat 5? 22:46:16 up until like 2005 i think 22:46:28 ehird, pretty sure redhat 5 didn't have it. But could be wrong 22:46:40 or at least. it wasn't default there 22:46:55 Fedora Core 4 dropped bluecurve window border, 5 dropped theme 22:47:02 So add a few years onto that and that's when redhat dropped it :P 22:47:16 4 was released june 05 22:47:19 5 march 06 22:47:31 you know... I'm pretty sure a regular install of my distro will have no GNU software at all 22:47:32 cool. 22:48:02 what shell do you use? 22:48:04 ehird, you are going to write an a.out backend for llvm then? 22:48:09 SimonRC, rc 22:48:13 SimonRC: good point, I'm not sure which to use 22:48:19 AnMaster: not sure I'll use rc for command interpreter 22:48:22 it's lacking in several areas 22:48:29 ehird, hm. zsh is way to bloated for you 22:48:31 for scripts around the system, though, definitely 22:48:34 eh 22:48:37 zsh is as bloated as bash 22:48:43 ash? 22:48:43 SimonRC: ... You mean bash doesn't have a kill buffer? 22:48:44 ehird, zsh is more bloated 22:48:44 maybe pksh 22:48:45 or whatever it's called 22:48:53 ehird, like, it has mmap module and what not 22:48:56 the korn shell derivative 22:48:59 pikhq: it does 22:49:04 ehird, pdksh? 22:49:08 yes 22:49:26 Its weak points are that there are still a few differences from ksh88 (the major one is that `echo hi | read x' does not set x in the current shell - the read is done in a separate process). 22:49:28 not quite as easy as hitting down in irssi though 22:49:28 well that's crap 22:49:37 although really, use rc for scripts like that 22:49:51 bash has a kill buffer?! 22:49:57 if pdksh has decent globbing, filename completion, and good variable expansion kind of things... 22:49:59 how about a concatenative shell? RPN and all that 22:50:01 then i might consider it 22:50:04 huh. I never messed much with readline stuff 22:50:09 rc is definitely the thing for scripts though! 22:50:32 the bash man page explains all the keys you can hit 22:50:34 AnMaster: Readline implements most of the Emacs bindings. 22:50:36 ehird, what about plain ksh? 22:50:43 ksh is not free. 22:50:45 csh? 22:50:47 pikhq, ah true 22:50:52 You are about to say "csh". 22:50:54 yay tcsh 22:50:55 You may: cower in fear 22:50:56 > 22:51:00 * pikhq vomits at csh 22:51:02 AnMaster: you didn't mean that did you 22:51:06 you did not just say yay tcsh 22:51:08 you were sarcastic 22:51:16 I was naming random shells 22:51:23 AnMaster: you didn't mean that did you <-- no 22:51:29 phew 22:51:37 you did not just say yay tcsh <-- yes I did, but in a sarcastic way 22:51:41 good :P 22:51:51 posh? 22:52:03 ehird, what about that original shell 22:52:05 oh, wait that's not publically available 22:52:06 * AnMaster tries to remember 22:52:10 http://cygwin.com/packages/posh/posh-0.6-1 22:52:11 I used to use tcsh; I think I switched to bash mostly out of laziness; too lazy to deviate from the norm. 22:52:12 Sure it is :P 22:52:13 SimonRC, what is posh? 22:52:24 ehird: not that posh 22:52:29 What is it then? 22:52:32 I have a feeling tcsh is/was the default shell at some of the university systems. 22:52:46 fizzie: oh yes 22:52:51 SimonRC, well? 22:52:58 "not publically available" 22:52:59 ehird: um, a shell. Don't want to say much more 22:53:01 He probably can't say 22:53:14 SimonRC, something used at work? You have your own? 22:53:14 [23:52:55] htkallas@kosh ~> ^D 22:53:14 Use "exit" to leave tcsh. 22:53:14 Yes, seems to be there. 22:53:15 heh 22:53:17 SimonRC -(soul)-> The Man 22:53:24 SimonRC <-($$$)- The Man 22:53:31 nah, I just made it up to sound more mysterious 22:53:33 the man? 22:53:36 SimonRC: suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure 22:53:47 I wonder if there's a compatible alternative to ncurses; not that I really care, since it's only barely a GNU project and MIT-licensed 22:53:56 but it would be fun to have a viable linux distro with no gnu software by default 22:54:02 NOM NOM NOM SOUL 22:54:13 OFFS people 22:54:15 still the man? 22:54:19 SimonRC, "offs"? 22:54:27 Optimal Fracturing File System. 22:54:31 * AnMaster googles "the man" 22:54:33 ehird: pdcurses only does X11 on Linux IIRC, but maybe that's changeable. 22:54:35 It intentionally introduces beneficial fragmentation. 22:54:40 Gregor: Weird 22:54:52 OTOH, ncurses apps are sufficiently fucked-up that maybe making them use X11 is good :P 22:55:01 ehird, no! 22:55:39 the command line is for command UIs, ncurses programs are point-and-click WIMP UIs 22:55:45 or rather, tap-and-click 22:55:50 certainly not command-line, anyway 22:55:56 ehird, in X they support mouse 22:56:05 * AnMaster watches ehirds reaction 22:56:06 They support mouse with xterm too 22:56:07 well 22:56:12 ehird, yes that is what I meant 22:56:14 Badl 22:56:16 Badly 22:56:19 oh damn you knew 22:56:23 ehird, indeed 22:56:23 **Badly 22:56:27 Correcting corrections FTW 22:56:34 And pdcurses+X actually works pretty well w/ mouse :P 22:56:45 pdcurses seems pretty cool then 22:56:53 I'll consider it 22:57:02 does it come with an example program? arch might have a package 22:57:05 ehird, I always keep reading "ftw" as "fuck the what" 22:57:07 Looks like it supports SDL too, and SDL supports FB consoles, so if you don't want X you could be sneaky that way :P 22:57:07 :( 22:57:19 PDCurses is a public domain curses library for DOS, OS/2, Win32, X11 and SDL, implementing most of the functions available in X/Open and System V R4 curses. It supports many compilers for these platforms. The X11 port lets you recompile existing text-mode curses programs to produce native X11 applications. 22:57:25 Gregor: I want X :P 22:57:29 AnMaster: I thought it meant that for years 22:57:31 fuck the what now 22:57:36 Well, then, problem solved. 22:57:52 ooh lament, lament is speaking. 22:57:53 ooh, curses library that has a native X11 backend :> 22:57:54 * AnMaster hides 22:57:59 olsner: yep 22:58:02 that's what we're discussing 22:58:34 oh, I thought you were discussing the feasability of making a fully non-gnu linux distribution 22:58:41 olsner: well, that too; mine is almost there 22:58:51 ehird, where can I get the ISO? 22:58:52 apart from ncurses and, uh, that's about it 22:58:56 (without intending to do it) 22:58:57 AnMaster: nowhere yet. 22:59:03 but I've almost completely designed it 22:59:05 oh 22:59:07 that. 22:59:11 lawl. 22:59:22 ehird, I don 22:59:34 don't* think you will ever implement it 22:59:44 Yes I will, considering I'm switching to it 23:00:04 I would like to see no-GNU/Linux. 23:00:04 I don't want to stay on OS X, but I cannot bring myself to use any of the current distros except maybe Arch 23:00:06 So... 23:00:13 ehird, heh. ditching OS X? 23:00:30 Yeaah. vs the current crop of distros it's compelling enough to stay. 23:00:41 ehird, why not mastodon? 23:00:44 But having everything work without fiddling is just boring. 23:00:51 AnMaster: Because it can't even do USB afaik? 23:00:52 But having everything work without fiddling is just boring. 23:00:54 wait 23:00:55 what 23:01:00 are YOU saying that? 23:01:02 It's the nerd in me. 23:01:10 Making a distro is a nice way to solve that. 23:01:19 ehird, this is not ehird. Please bring him back. What have you done to him. 23:01:20 Tinkering goes in the area where you have to tinker anyway (maintanence). 23:01:26 AnMaster: I killed him. 23:01:28 It's also a nice way to get rid of that pesky sanity. 23:01:28 SORRY 23:01:35 ehird, it might be a good idea to do LFS first to learn some internals. 23:01:36 Gregor: Wow, I have sanity? 23:01:38 Where?! 23:01:39 if you haven't already 23:01:54 anyway, back to pdcurses. no more will we have to write our terminals based on obscure corners of vt100, crippling our text editing capabilities for those vagrant applications! In X we can manage the real windows again, instead of our morass of terminals! LIBERATE THE UNKNOWLEDGABLE PROGRAMS! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! 23:02:03 ...wait. 23:02:07 when (not if) X11 breaks... 23:02:11 and i'm dumped to a console... 23:02:13 $ vi foo 23:02:16 Can't connect to display 23:02:17 $ nano foo 23:02:19 Can't connect to display 23:02:21 $ ed foo 23:02:22 ? 23:02:31 OKAY NCURSES IT IS 23:02:32 ehird, you forgot emacs in that list 23:02:34 MOVING ON! 23:02:40 AnMaster: No GNU stuff, remember? :P 23:02:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:02:42 ehird, also bash links to ncurses 23:02:45 wait nvm 23:02:48 you wouldn't use it 23:02:48 Haha 23:02:50 X11 bash 23:02:59 ehird: He never said GNU Emacs. :P 23:03:15 "GNUmacs? FUCK THAT SHIT! GOSLING EMACS!" 23:03:16 ehird, or rather, readline links to ncurses. and that causes bash to also 23:03:24 *GOS! LING! EMACS! 23:03:26 ehird, µemacs is nice 23:03:31 Or that Emacs-alike that Linus uses. 23:03:37 What AnMaster said. 23:03:44 there is "gosling emacs"? 23:03:48 * AnMaster looks in package repos 23:03:50 Gosling Emacs circa 1981/ 23:03:53 ah 23:03:53 *. 23:03:56 First Unix Emacs. 23:04:00 First Lisp-like extension language. 23:04:13 ehird, what did it run on before 23:04:14 Some code used in initial GNU Emacs. 23:04:14 * AnMaster forgot 23:04:16 AnMaster: TECO. 23:04:22 And ITS and stuff. 23:04:28 ehird, ... I know but what did TECO run on I meant 23:04:29 ah 23:04:31 ITS 23:04:31 Basically, everyone who says rms invented Emacs? 23:04:33 is that the Java Gosling? 23:04:33 right 23:04:39 Has never heard of Gosling Emacs. 23:04:41 SimonRC: yep 23:04:42 "Its extension language, Mocklisp, has a syntax that appears similar to Lisp, but Mocklisp has no lists or other structured datatypes." Heh, Lisp with no lists sounds like a winner. 23:04:50 and Bill Joy, another java guy, made vi... 23:04:53 Ohh 23:04:56 THAT'S why Java sucks 23:04:57 ehird: I could've sworn rms wrote TECO Emacs. 23:05:04 the vi inventor and the Gosling Emacs inventor 23:05:06 on the same team 23:05:07 * SimonRC wonders where Eclipse came from then 23:05:10 Why didn't I think of this before?! 23:05:13 pikhq: he did 23:05:17 ;-) 23:05:19 pikhq: the point is that gosling emacs pioneered what we know as emacs 23:05:20 With Guy Steele. 23:05:24 Yeah, it did. 23:05:30 and TECO emacs wasn't anything like that at all 23:05:38 Rms saw Gosling Emacs and felt that it had a lot of good ideas. 23:05:41 I'll just assume nobody got my reference, incidentally 23:05:41 Thus, GNU Emacs. 23:05:53 ehird, what reference? 23:06:05 "GNUmacs? FUCK THAT SHIT! GOS! LING! EMACS!" 23:06:16 ehird, well gosling emacs 23:06:18 you said that 23:06:57 Not that :P 23:09:20 ehird, then what 23:09:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4 23:10:51 ehird, what 23:10:54 I don't get it sitll 23:10:56 still* 23:11:05 guess who else didn't get references? Hitler! 23:11:25 ... 23:11:29 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 23:11:34 godwin 23:11:56 Guess who else invoked Godwin's law just by existing? 23:12:15 Godwin? 23:12:45 wait. Is this some law about mentioning godwin's law? 23:12:45 * SimonRC recalls blog posts comparing Hitler to BO. 23:12:58 SimonRC, Bo? 23:13:02 http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/ 23:13:11 Barack Obama is literally Hitler. 23:13:51 http://16.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqebfvzCxB1qzniowo1_500.jpg 23:15:35 http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/ <-- is that conservative or is it joking with conservative 23:15:38 * AnMaster can't figure out 23:15:54 This person totally believes that Barack Obama is literally the same person as Hitler. Yep. 23:15:57 Absolutely. 23:16:07 And also believes that that comic is actual proof of it. 23:16:11 * ehird nods solemnly 23:16:16 * SimonRC liked the Onion video about how Obama plans to deal with a raging wildfire 23:16:20 ehird, a nutcase then? Or you being sarcastic :P 23:16:25 ehird, anyway I didn't say that 23:16:29 I'm absolutely not sarcastic, how can you even suggest that 23:16:53 I am way left by american standards, yet I found that vidoe funny. Odd. 23:17:15 SimonRC: Pretty sure the Onion staff is too. 23:17:31 It's irrelevant. 23:18:06 Anyone who can't laugh at themselves is an idiot, so anyone who can't laugh at someone else, no matter who they are, is too. 23:18:36 ehird, I didn't hear what they said clearly in that video. 23:18:46 something about a bird? 23:18:46 which 23:18:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4 23:19:32 "What kind of beer do you like?" "(muffled)" "HEINEKEN? Fuck that shit! PABST! BLUE! RIBBON!" 23:20:36 oh. *bear* 23:20:46 err XD 23:20:47 What kind of bear do you like? 23:20:48 beer* 23:24:09 I wish writing an init had some kind of hidden complexity instead of just being sundry C code. 23:24:42 /bin/kernel calls /bin/init calls /bin/login, la la la 23:25:03 Wonder what login(1) usually is. Doesn't look like GNU from the manpage. 23:26:17 AnMaster: Incidentally, a cool thing about dwm and wmii: 23:26:22 is this an attempt to create a linux distro that is not "GNU/LINUX"? 23:26:23 The different desktops are actually tags 23:26:26 A window can be on more than one tag 23:26:31 ooh 23:26:39 SimonRC: No, it's an attempt at creating a minimalist distro focused on simplicity and usability 23:26:42 To a radical degree 23:26:54 Static binaries only, a.out, no kernel modules, non-glibc libc... 23:26:59 ehird, guess what. They can in kde3 too 23:27:03 not sure about kde4 23:27:10 won't the binaries be quite ... big? 23:27:16 AnMaster: Ah, but is it easy to apply them? In dwm it's just Mod+Shift+number. 23:27:35 SimonRC: Nope. Most of the binary size when using static binaries is caused by the huge glibc. 23:27:37 I suppose busybox will cover a lot of stuff 23:27:44 SimonRC: And static binaries only include the parts they use. 23:27:48 i've got a huge libc, if you know what i mean 23:27:49 ehird: ah, point 23:27:53 ehird, if you want "all desktops" or "one desktop" yes. if you want "some desktops" it is incredibly complex 23:28:01 :/ 23:28:22 SimonRC: Plus, it's faster to execute statically linked binaries, and they're completely immune to ABI changes. Besides... look at the dependencies of some package in your distro. 23:28:28 See all those lib* dependencies? 23:28:36 SimonRC: No, but it's not like it's *hard* to create a non-GNU Linux distro. 23:28:37 On the whole, a program using a lot of libraries may actually end up smaller. 23:28:47 A busybox/uclibc based system would just about do it. 23:29:03 Oh, I forgot one: init system just based on simple rc shell scripts 23:29:39 Anyway, non-GNU isn't specifically a goal, but it turns out that GNU software is basically the opposite of simplicity, minimalism, usability and Unix. 23:29:49 in general 23:30:01 So I end up simply not wanting to add much GNU software at all 23:31:59 I'm not sure I'll be using busybox 23:32:18 I like smallness, but I don't like how everything is in one binary, and the tools often seem overly barebones just to eke out the last bytes. 23:32:37 Busybox is most useful if you want a really absurdly barebones base install. 23:33:08 (like, say, /bin/kernel, /bin/init, /bin/rc, /bin/busybox...) 23:33:34 I should totally do a hack so that you can execute /bin/kernel from inside it :P 23:33:45 pikhq: Is that /bin/rc the startup binary? 23:33:47 As opposed to a script 23:33:48 heh 23:33:54 ehird: The rc shell. 23:34:01 Busybox has a shell :P 23:34:17 True. I only put that in because you wanted init to be in rc. :P 23:34:53 Well, not /bin/init, but that'll be tiny. 23:35:05 Most everything will be handled by /etc/rc.{stop,start}. 23:35:09 which /bin/init will call 23:35:21 is it possible to make init a shell script? 23:35:25 No inittab or run levels or anything 23:35:29 SimonRC: I'm not sure 23:35:34 Sounds a lot like Gentoo's init setup (except that it uses a bog-standard sysvinit)... 23:35:37 SimonRC: I think so; the kernel just uses a regular exec, I believe 23:35:55 pikhq: Well, sysvinit is a lot more complicated than just handling signals and calling shell scripts. 23:35:57 SimonRC: Yes. 23:36:22 ehird: All the inittab does in Gentoo is start /sbin/rc for the runlevels. 23:36:25 init will be a binary because you need to be able to kill it to shut down and the like 23:36:30 and I want to make sure it won't die 23:36:41 it'll be like 1 KiB though 23:36:51 (which are "shutdown", "single", "nonetwork", "default", and "reboot") 23:36:57 Incidentally, you could make /etc/rc.{start,stop} in Python or whateverr 23:37:00 *whatever 23:37:03 Just change the shebang 23:37:05 Even Haskell :P 23:38:22 OTOH, busybox gets me a lot of tools that work with Linux like mount 23:38:29 whereas, say, porting a BSD's tools would be more work 23:38:32 or maybe befunge? 23:38:40 hwh 23:38:41 *heh 23:39:00 pikhq: No runlevels in my system! >:) 23:39:02 brainfuck lacks the power to spawn new processes alas 23:39:23 If you want an X login manager make /bin/login a shell script that starts x or whatever 23:39:29 ehird: So, more like Busybox init. 23:39:39 Otherwise just run startx after logging in, or even condition on 23:39:43 "are we in a console?" 23:39:47 in your .profile 23:39:50 hmm... 23:39:50 ofc that breaks consoles :P 23:39:52 (though that does handle an inittab. Just no runlevels.) 23:40:10 You could make a /bin/login shell script that starts x and then runs the old /bin/login, of course 23:40:27 I'll probably have a ready-made file to do that 23:40:31 so you can just do 23:40:33 Why couldn't init just be a shell script that calls a list of stuff to start in sequence? 23:40:39 easy to maintain, very simple 23:40:44 SimonRC: that's what it is! 23:40:46 in my system 23:40:58 it's just that init has to run constantly, and my shutdown procedure involves sending signals to init 23:40:59 so you can disable things just by commenting out lines? 23:41:02 yep 23:41:06 cool] 23:41:30 my /bin/init will basically set up any infrastructure needed, run /bin/rc.start, and then sit there waiting for the right signals (shutdown, restart, suspend to RAM, etc) 23:41:40 in which case it'll act appropriately; for shutdowns and reboots, it'll run /bin/rc.stop first 23:41:42 before halting or rebooting 23:41:49 erm not /bin 23:41:52 /etc/rc.{start,stop{ 23:41:53 *} 23:42:17 every time you add a new thing to run in startup, you can just re-create init, e.g. using "tsort" 23:42:24 No need to recreate init 23:42:26 that way /etc/rc.* are not needed 23:42:35 Well, but why? 23:42:59 to try out something no other distro does? 23:43:13 Seems like it'd just make changing the init stuff fussy for no benefit. 23:43:19 as a simpler way to get startup dependancies? 23:43:25 But no distro has an init system as simple as mine, without any inittab or anything 23:43:27 SimonRC: Eh? 23:43:31 you're just proposing embedding the script, right? 23:43:48 "embedding"? 23:43:58 You have not even adequately explained your proposal... 23:44:02 So I don't understand. 23:44:13 I haven't really thought about it... 23:44:30 so, there is a list of things that must be run at startup? 23:44:32 tsort is a good idea, though 23:44:35 SimonRC: and shutdown 23:44:37 and this list changes occasionally? 23:44:41 Yep 23:44:50 Note that the scripts may have logic 23:44:56 Since starting stuff can be non-trivial 23:45:03 hm interesting 23:45:04 what kind of logic? 23:45:14 if (file exists /dev/foo) 23:46:36 But init need not re-determine what order to run things in every time the system starts. It might be nicer to "compile" the list of things to call in the right order with the maximum parallelism into a new /bin/init every time the list of things present changes 23:46:46 or that might just turn into a nightmare 23:46:51 I don't know 23:47:08 Yes, the dependency parallelism thing is a good idea and a good justification for it 23:47:14 But a shell script is a lot simpler 23:47:23 but it can be a shell script 23:47:27 And my distro is minimalist enough that boot to X will take, what, 2 seconds? 23:47:39 So it seems like a lot of complexity for a slightly faster boot is a waste. 23:47:52 Especially as this way is much easier to maintain; just slot it in the right place. 23:48:28 of course, init would need to be recreated every time you added or removed a demon, which might be tricky 23:48:38 Not tricky, just a pain. 23:51:18 SimonRC: Incidentally, know any kernel patches for good suspend/hibernate/resume support? 23:51:30 LinuxOnIce looked promising but its suspend-to-disk mode is unbelievably slow from the looks of it 23:51:36 *TuxOnIce 23:51:40 dunno 23:52:34 Come to think of it, you don't need to edit /bin/login to get an X login manager, duh 23:52:39 Just edit /etc/rc.start and change 23:52:40 login 23:52:41 to 23:52:45 startx & 23:52:45 login 23:52:51 well 23:53:01 startx & 23:53:02 xdm & 23:53:03 login 23:53:04 or whatever 23:53:06 but you get the idea 23:56:00 PATH=~/bin:/local/bin:/bin will be pretty cool to have. 23:56:20 Although I think it should just be PATH=/bin by default. 23:58:31 using those overlaid dirs, PLan9-style? 23:58:43 Nope, although I might consider having something like that. 23:59:11 It's just that I know I'll have no /usr (pointless directory), /local will be uncommon due to there being, you know, packages, and ~/bin isn't that common either (besides, it's easy to add them) 23:59:20 All distro binaries and packages you make's binaries go into /bin