2009-10-01: 00:00:02 what happens 00:00:07 although the actual ripping apart only takes a fraction of a second iirc 00:00:13 naturally 00:00:19 do you just like, gradually lose all sight of the outside world and freeze in time 00:00:31 like, do you just die when time becomes infinitely slow, or does it just slow down (you don't notice of course) 00:00:38 and so you live and die eventually of starvation/thirst etc 00:00:41 assuming this magic pod 00:00:44 you die way before time slows down significantly 00:00:49 and to everyone else you just move into it slower and slower 00:00:56 lament: well, yeah 00:00:56 also 00:01:01 blah 00:01:02 let's assume we're superhuman and live for thousands of years 00:01:06 ok 00:01:16 the time slows down from the outside observer's perspective 00:01:28 right, so my pod goes slower and slower 00:01:30 for you, the time in the universe outside the hole correspondingly speeds up 00:01:38 so very soon after, the universe ends 00:01:41 :D 00:01:57 lament: but you never lose sight of the outside world? 00:02:13 i guess not 00:02:17 Assuming very large black hole, the radius where gravitational tidal forces become too large is inside the black hole. 00:02:38 naturally light from the outside will keep coming in... 00:02:46 well, yeah 00:03:17 according to one theory, you fall into the hole, everything flashes white as the whole remaining time of the outside universe "flashes before your eyes", and you get exploded outward in a white hole in a new universe 00:03:23 so if i wave (really quickly so it's normal for the outside; I'm magic), no matter how far in I am, the outside can still see me? 00:03:40 ehird: the light can't get out 00:03:45 of course this is all assuming the inside actually exists, and is just not a mathematical abstraction that physically really stops at the horizon (outer boundary) 00:03:45 right. 00:03:54 *not just 00:04:05 oerjan: it would certainly be a bit strange if "reality stopped" there, no? 00:04:07 eh 00:04:09 who's a christian? 00:04:14 plz pray to god for one of dem pods 00:04:18 I'm going to do some experimental physics 00:05:49 * Sgeo knows Christians 00:05:54 lament: sure but it might be where the holographic theory actually hits reality... the surface of the black hole being where you actually hit on the universe being 2-dimensional in a quantum sense. but now i am blathering. 00:06:06 oerjan: that sounds trippy 00:06:12 i'll take some drugs in the pod. 00:06:22 maybe I can experience quantum fabric. 00:06:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle 00:06:43 (can i just say that quantum foam is one of my favourite names for anything ever) 00:06:59 oerjan: as i understand there's a whole bunch of theories for what happens inside 00:07:09 oerjan: "string theory" sidebar spotted 00:07:12 quackery assumed 00:07:28 The gravititational fields in/near black hole are so extreme, that even GR breaks down at some point. But what is not known where it breaks down. Outside the event horzion, at event horizon or somewhere very near the central singularity. 00:08:05 lament: with the "everything goes quickly and universe ends" thing, I assume the universe ends before you actually hit the singularity? 00:08:31 i dunno 00:08:39 i guess it depends on whether the universe is finite :) 00:09:09 :P 00:09:30 Hmm 00:09:36 what if someone else came in a pod at the exact same time? 00:09:44 could you see them? could they see you? are your times the same? 00:11:15 are your shoe sizes the same? 00:11:22 wat 00:11:29 ehird: by the equations of general relativity, once you pass the horizon there is a finite time from your perspective until you hit the inner singularity 00:11:56 oerjan: but would the universe end before that? 00:12:11 now if those finite times overlap for the two pods, i would assume they could interact if the inner space actually exists 00:12:16 has anyone ever noticed how arbitrary physics is :P 00:12:28 lament: before you hit 00:12:31 if the universe ends you cannot hit 00:12:32 i.e. never hit 00:12:34 so it has to be before 00:13:38 ehird: you do realize that the relativity of simultaneity inside a black hole is so great that it might not make sense to speak of whether the outer universe has ended or not? 00:13:44 :D 00:14:28 oerjan: ok 00:14:45 oerjan: but wouldn't the hole have evaporated by then??? 00:15:03 its horizon would ... but would the inside? 00:15:10 whoa. 00:15:15 w h o a. 00:15:23 so wait, if it's subjective whether the universe is ended 00:15:25 we just need a huge pod 00:15:33 and stuff everyone (now immortal) in it 00:15:35 go into a black hole 00:15:37 tada 00:15:42 infinitely long-lasting universe 00:17:42 i'm sure there must be some scifi based on that idea 00:18:27 we need a branch of physics just dedicated to finding out all the awesome shit you could do if the pod existed. 00:30:58 -!- coppro has joined. 00:45:52 so, anyone with Enigma? 00:46:00 0.92-3#16 Almost There 00:46:07 protip: third block on the right side 00:46:09 hoooooooooly shit 00:46:13 apparently it's 6x6 screens big 01:07:54 -!- Asztal has joined. 01:26:04 "Microsoft's new Barrelfish OS: built on domain specific languages written in Haskell :: PDF" 01:26:54 "Where is zero - I can only approach it" 01:27:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:28:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:28:03 Sgeo: ? 01:28:05 "Sgeo - Any context of zero - it doesn't matter if it is numbers (they make an imaginary place and call it zero) - it is known only by God" 01:28:12 ^^someone in a Bible channel 01:28:29 what? 01:28:41 anyway, surely you have better things to do than troll a bible channel 01:29:19 When I see someone saying things like "I guess only Our Almighty Father knows how a quark can exist and yet not exist at the same time.", what can I do 01:29:39 Unless there really is a quantum physics thing with simulantaneous existance/non-existance 01:30:13 Realise that they're delusional and believe an inconsistent, unjustified assertion without evidence, and thus cannot be reasoned with and will contradict facts merely because they contradict their own contradictory belief system? 01:30:29 It's untrollable. 01:31:11 I'm not even talking about God. I'm talking about science. 01:31:24 Sgeo: You could point out that just because they don't understand something, it doesn't mean that God intends _all_ human beings forever not to understand it. 01:31:32 And they will not separate the two; science only comes below God. 01:31:35 s/they/_they_/ 01:31:37 You are wasting your time. 01:32:04 oerjan, this guy things he understands things, like how humans don't understand 0 or infinity 01:32:22 Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian! 01:32:33 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 01:32:48 ehird: you're as prejudiced as that guy 01:32:58 have you ever read the bible oerjan 01:33:10 Technically, I haven't seen that guy be prejudiced, just stupid 01:33:32 ehird: comments like that indicate your prejudice 01:33:44 ehird: you are refusing to see the point that just because someone believes the bible they don't have to extend their stupidity to _everything_ 01:33:49 ehird, the Bible may be evil, but that doesn't mean Christians are 01:33:55 oerjan: of course - but this person clearly DOES 01:34:15 ehird: sure, but it is not _because_ of the bible 01:34:23 Anyway, of course I'm prejudiced against idiots. At least my belief system is self-correcting, has shown real results and is not based on unfalsifiable obvious fairy tales. 01:34:28 Nothing wrong with the Bible. Not a great read, tough. 01:34:29 it's just his excuse 01:34:31 *though 01:34:33 Woohoo! I just proved to myself that I'm capable of disagreeing with ehird! 01:34:39 oerjan: considering the bible says so much that is simply not so, scientifically, it totally is 01:35:13 ehird: so you hate science fiction? 01:35:16 ehird, not all Christians are idiots. Not closely examining every little thing that you were taught does not make you an idiot. 01:35:26 coppro: I don't believe science fiction is true. 01:35:28 If I did I would be an idiot. 01:35:38 Sgeo: I never claimed all Christians are idiots. 01:35:42 I am talking about *one* *person*. 01:35:43 Sheesh. 01:35:53 " Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian!" 01:36:01 so basically what you're saying is the Bible is evil because people believe it? 01:36:17 coppro: I also never said the bible is evil; please do not take Sgeo's misquotes and apply them to me. thanks. 01:36:19 Sgeo: that was 01:36:23 (a) joking 01:36:28 (b) not implying anything 01:36:30 I'm the one who said the Bible was evil 01:36:40 Christians do indeed not understand things; not all things, and I never said they were idiots. 01:36:41 ehird: oh wait, I was misreading one of your responses to oerjan 01:36:46 my bad 01:36:51 But being a Christian in the modern age is, indeed, not understanding things about science. 01:37:02 or at least about what is fiction and what isn't 01:37:28 the bible's rather shoddy fiction, no coherent plot and a lot of gratuitous explicit scenes, and the hero is a bitch :P 01:38:05 I completely agree with you there! 01:38:39 But people believing in the Bible and understanding science are not mutually exclusive 01:39:12 Considering the Bible states things that are simply scientifically untrue, yes they are 01:39:30 ehird, unless they read the whole Bible and take the whole thing literally, no 01:39:39 "Believing in the Bible" was what was said. 01:40:04 But sure, if you believe in an arbitrary subset of the Bible according to an arbitrary interpretation ignoring the text... no, wait, you're still believing in something unfalsifiable given without evidence, so you fail at science. 01:40:08 It might still be considered to "believe in the Bible" without taking the whole thing loiterally 01:40:39 ehird: I know someone who maintains everything in the Bible to be 100% fact while still agreeing with modern science. He gets a bit fuzzy around some bits, but I would not consider himself to be unscientific 01:40:40 ehird, maybe at applying science to everything, but that doesn't mean you disagree with scientific knowledge 01:40:44 s/himself/him/ 01:41:07 coppro: So, let me get this straight: what does he do with his hair? does he stone adulterers? 01:41:14 Or has he resigned himself to going to Hell? 01:41:41 ehird, possibly took the shortcut of saying that Jesus overturned the rules of the OT, or whatever 01:41:43 ehird: no, he keeps it shot lest he develop gargantuan strength and accidentally hurt a friend ;) 01:41:53 lol coppro 01:42:08 coppro: so, apart from that wink there, he clearly does not take the bible as 100% true 01:42:41 ehird: my sarcasm, not his 01:42:48 I'm aware. 01:42:49 his hair is short though 01:43:03 I was simply stating that he empirically does not believe in the Bible totally. 01:43:07 and this is undeniable 01:43:41 ehird: You'd be surprised. I haven't managed to work out how he manages to believe in modern science and the Bible. But he does. 01:46:31 coppro: um 01:46:32 I just disproved it 01:47:07 ehird: no, you did not 01:47:50 so what does he do with adulterers. 01:48:18 to my knowledge he's never encountered one 01:48:21 your premise is that a logical belief-system and an illogical one are irreconcilable because they contradict each other. Do note, however, that one of the belief systems is illogical, and thus the combined beliefe system is, by definition, illogical. 01:48:53 it's simple, if he doesn't do what the bible says, and he doesn't think he's going to hell, then he does NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE 01:49:46 I'd have to ask him on that one 01:50:24 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:50:53 but I suspect that he would say that the specific instructions given in the Bible can only be properly interpreted in their historical context 02:05:38 back 02:05:55 coppro: you mean he doesn't literally believe in the bible? shocking. 02:06:36 ehird: He believes in it; he just doesn't take the instructions literally 02:06:39 there's a difference 02:07:21 every christian "believes" in the bible by that measure 02:07:34 not necessarily 02:07:38 it's only unusual if they believe in what it says as WHAT IT SAYS rather than some extremely hamfisted, arbitrary interpretation of their own design 02:07:39 <3 this music 02:07:54 Sgeo: did you agree with ehird when you did something and he said that people who do that are idiots? 02:08:24 Warrigal, I'd need to be reminded of when this was 02:08:35 Although it sounds familiar, as in, very recent 02:08:45 possibly because i do that all the time. 02:08:58 But I'm fairly sure Warrigal wouldn't know; he does, after all, have me on ignore. 02:09:01 ehird: he believes in the historical account. 02:09:07 I believe you said "s***", asterisks and all, and he said that self-censorship is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of offense or something. 02:09:27 coppro: so he believes in it selectively 02:09:28 yes historical accounts 02:09:29 no instructions 02:09:33 i.e., selectively. 02:09:38 ehird: disagree 02:10:09 ehird: if I told you to go pour me a glass of water, and instead you dipped the glass in a pitcher, would you be, for any reasonable definition, violating my instruction? 02:10:18 Warrigal, I think I might have disagreed, then 02:10:20 Not sure 02:10:30 coppro: yes, if we're talking about interpreting your instructions *literally* 02:10:30 * Warrigal nods. 02:10:32 which we are 02:10:42 ehird: why though 02:10:45 we're talking about whether he believes in the bible literally, which is the whole point of the bible: to be believed in as it says 02:10:53 coppro: because I didn't pour. 02:10:57 I put it in a pitcher instead. 02:11:00 ...Hey, there are Christians on IRC. 02:11:06 ehird: why are we taking everything literally though? 02:11:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:11:27 Warrigal: even in here :P 02:12:24 I wonder where I can find these people. 02:12:42 Warrigal: most places. in here, for instance. oh wait you can't hear me 02:13:11 Warrigal: Try #christianity or something on a network that tolerates them 02:13:26 * coppro remembers and awesome bash quote now 02:13:34 *an 02:13:34 yes, ass, ha ha. 02:15:05 ehird: huh? 02:15:08 I wonder if freenode is a network that tolerates... it. 02:15:13 I think not. 02:15:25 precisely why I mentioned other networks in the first place 02:15:30 try efnet 02:15:36 everything goes on efnet 02:15:41 "Come join us in ##religion where the main community is building" 02:15:43 --##christianity 02:15:51 A whole 13 people in ##religion. 02:16:28 freenode policy says that religious "invective" is off-topic. Presumably, civil discussion is just fine. 02:16:33 In any case, I'll try EFnet. 02:16:40 freenode is for peer-directed project. 02:16:42 *projects 02:16:51 anyway, I don't understand Warrigal; is he realising that there are Christians on IRC at all, or that they might congregate in one channel? 02:38:58 * Sgeo is in EFNet 02:39:41 you and everyone. 02:43:34 Sgeo: what channel? 02:43:52 #atheism, #Bible, and #secondlife 02:44:21 Is #secondlife a Bible channel? 02:44:29 How Christian is #atheism? 02:45:04 Warrigal: master of asking questions that he knows the answer to. 03:07:34 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 03:41:36 * ehird attempts to find Helvetica and Helvetica Neue in single unified .ttfs with hinting 03:41:37 also, a pony 03:52:58 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 03:56:58 -!- hekau has joined. 04:10:16 hi hekau 04:10:28 hello, ehird 04:10:36 haven't seen your name around here before; new? 04:10:52 i am, any advice? 04:11:02 yes, turn back before the darkness envelops you 04:11:18 I presume you're here for the programming languages and not the esoterick magick we sometimes see people after 04:11:53 in which case, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page will be useful if you haven't already seen it 04:11:56 what makes you think that? 04:12:13 hekau: well, because that's what this channel is about and technology is freenode's main topic. i guess my assumption was erroneous? 04:12:45 no, the mistake was mine - you are correct. how embarassing. 04:13:06 though i am also fond of code 04:13:42 technically we only deal in the useless languages, which is closer to esoterica than most related things. 04:14:12 brainfuck, for example? 04:14:28 that one's useful 04:14:29 that's the canonical example, also: unlambda, intercal 04:14:46 coppro :P 04:14:53 anyway, we're off-topic an awful lot, although I doubt we could seriously entertain the topic of magick for more than a few seconds :) 04:15:07 i'm not into magick :) 04:15:36 i was using it as a blanket term for esoterica, heretical as that may be 04:15:42 rather the psychology of the occult - more of an anthropologic perspective, you know? 04:15:53 * coppro likes Magic 04:16:01 the gathering? :P 04:16:07 hekau: none of those words make any sense to me and yet they are somehow infinitely intriguing 04:16:11 what on earth do you mean 04:16:32 haha 04:16:58 well okay, i understand all of them 04:17:03 individually. 04:17:32 rather than focusing on the application of occult knowledge, i instead enjoy musing with the human aspect of the occult - ie what is it about the occult that appeals to people, where does it derive its power, is it merely a manifestation of subconscious human abilities, etc. etc. 04:17:43 why do certain symbols have power 04:17:50 or specific connotations within our psyche 04:17:52 can i be a cynical bastard and answer that it has no power. :) 04:18:01 no, you are absolutely correct 04:18:04 the occult has no power 04:18:07 people however do 04:18:11 hekau: yes 04:18:31 and when they exert their will towards a certain goal 04:18:36 it gives the illusion of power 04:18:39 kind of like a placebo of the mind 04:18:40 hekau: so sort of like, what the appeal of the occult is to people? and why it psychologically, causes changes in them? 04:18:41 interesting 04:18:56 yes 04:18:59 exactly 04:19:34 is there an existing stuff on this or is it something you thought up :) 04:20:12 ehird: it's called neurosis 04:20:24 i'm sure there are people out there who study the occult from the psychological level, but usually they use different terms to avoid the negative connotations 04:20:28 or that 04:20:40 [[Neurosis (from the Greek νεύρωσις) refers to a class of functional mental disorder involving distress but neither delusions nor hallucinations]] 04:20:46 no, it's not. 04:21:01 ehird: don't trust wikipedia 04:21:12 Princeton's is better "a mental or personality disturbance not attributable to any known neurological or organic dysfunction " 04:21:29 so, coppro, do you refer to the study of neurosis 04:21:30 wow that's useless 04:21:33 or that i am neurotic? 04:21:40 "Neurosis: It's the condition when we don't know what the fuck the condition is!" 04:21:44 probably the former 04:21:50 yes, the former 04:21:58 then yes, you are exactly correct. 04:22:04 see, for example, the placebo effect 04:22:16 placebo is about physical 04:22:27 as hekau said they're talking about placebo of the mental 04:22:35 ^ awkward sentence there 04:22:35 but it's caused neurologically 04:23:05 neurosis by the princeton definition does apply in this context 04:23:10 methinks 04:23:13 yes 04:23:33 this example is a bit cliche 04:23:36 so wait, coppro uses a term, I dispute it with a definition 04:23:37 people experience things that cannot be attributed to any disease simply because they want to 04:23:42 he disputes it back with a definition that doesn't apply either 04:23:45 wat 04:23:47 but the nazi party is the perfect case of occultism at work 04:24:07 that is a form of neurosis 04:24:18 ehird - too logical :P 04:24:29 that's me 04:24:42 blessing & curse 04:24:52 anyway, the nazi party didn't really have rituals did it 04:24:57 it was just brainwashing of a sort 04:25:12 ehird: why do you think double-blind experiments exist? It's well-documented, for instance, that expectations bias even the most meticulous of scientists 04:25:12 surprisingly they made heavy use of occult symbolism 04:25:28 coppro: I agree; and? 04:25:42 hekau: true, but aren't rituals a kinda important aspect of occultism? 04:25:43 ehird: it's the same thing 04:25:47 the swastika, the symbol for the SS, a skull resting atop two crossed bones, terminology, the linkage between the aryan race and german mythology 04:25:49 coppro: as what 04:26:09 coppro, ah now were in the realm of werner heisenberg 04:26:14 one of my favs. 04:26:18 ehird: what hekau was talking about, with people causing their expectations/beliefs to change their perceptions of the world 04:26:36 Double blind is just guarding against people giving signals unintentionally. 04:26:47 ehird, i'm sure there are rituals as well 04:26:53 so guys, did we just go off topic in three lines or what 04:26:56 you'd be surprised - let me try to find some 04:26:58 ehird: it's more than that 04:27:19 ah, wikipedia to the rescue - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_and_Occultism 04:27:55 cool. 04:27:58 ugh 04:28:03 what 04:28:05 of course they have to name drop aleister crowley in there 04:28:15 crowley amuses me 04:28:19 and me 04:28:34 anyway hitler was a christian, so it seems quite odd to adopt occultism 04:28:34 A perfect blind experiment, for instance, requires the researchers setting up the experiment and the researchers measuring the results to be different and unaware of each other 04:28:38 then again he wasn't much of a christian. 04:28:55 i mean, A+ for the practicing christianity thing, F for killing a bunch of people, you know 04:29:06 ehird, the masons, rosicrucians, etc. are all 'christian' orders 04:29:19 Masonry isn't anything though. 04:29:26 well, not outwardly 04:29:27 ehird: he was pretty A+ at killing people 04:29:36 but they do require a belief in god 04:29:52 coppro, unfortunately 04:30:05 this is a good convo. 04:30:14 hekau: now, let's not get into conspiracy theories; by all accounts masonry is a bunch of people chatting and considering themselves superior because they act out silly plays and claim to believe in god 04:30:36 hekau, i thought you were referring to nothing as in no religious affiliation 04:30:38 not intention 04:30:41 * Gregor chants mason voodoo quietly in the corner. 04:30:42 besides, they're agnostic as to what religion as long as it has a Supreme Being; although the rest of it may be stepped in Christianity, I don't know 04:30:47 hekau: stop talking to yourself! 04:30:50 :) 04:30:53 ehird :P 04:30:58 Gregor: Nazi mason voodoo. 04:31:03 i have my best conversations with myself 04:31:04 Indeed. 04:31:13 nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley no less 04:31:25 nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley's rubber duck. 04:31:28 quack 04:31:57 nice 04:32:46 anyways really we're just dealing with the inherent will of the individual here 04:32:52 and not any magic or whatever 04:33:14 when enough people believe something it becomes true 04:33:23 so there you have it 04:33:34 pretty much what i thought prior 04:33:44 yeah, but what a shock to all the goths 04:34:11 what? why? you just don't appreciate the vibrations, man 04:34:20 you just can't accept what uh, isn't real 04:34:36 mom, can i summon the devil to help me clean my room? 04:34:56 NOT UNTIL YOU CLEAN YOUR ROOM 04:35:06 * ehird blinks 04:35:06 :D 04:35:18 you don't understand me, mom! nobody does! KORN 04:35:58 pantheism is interesting 04:36:03 naturalistic pantheism 04:36:05 that is 04:36:18 porntheism is more interesting. 04:36:20 pantheism is boring. "if I redefine 'god' to mean 'universe', I can be an atheistic theist! GENIUS!" 04:36:28 "i'm so... profound..." 04:36:28 lol 04:36:39 hm, point taken 04:36:56 or so p.c. 04:37:07 i kinda get the feeling someone took einstein's words a bit too literally and came up with pantheism 04:37:26 I believe in spooky action at a distance 04:37:37 i believe in synchronicity 04:37:56 ehird, einstein does get muddled 04:38:03 isn't synchronicity just a word for "i don't understand probability-- hey, look, a coincidence!" 04:39:20 meaningful coincidence is probabilistic? 04:39:58 i can be wrong here, it's cool. 04:40:02 :P 04:40:55 sec 04:41:06 I find that synchronicity is always explainable with less hand-waving and metaphysics by probability, the fact that coincidences *do* happen, and the brain's selective remembering: how many instances of non-synchronicity do you remember?! (see also: Baader-Meinhof phenomenon) 04:41:16 wtf it was deleted. 04:41:33 anyway 04:41:41 the basic thing is that you see something, then notice it more 04:41:46 because previously, your brain subconsciously ignored it 04:41:52 but then when it's brought to your attention... 04:41:59 and so, it seems that everyone's finding something at the same time as you 04:42:06 your brain becoming more alert to mentionings of it 04:42:10 that just sounds like advertising 04:42:18 erm, no 04:42:22 sure 04:42:28 bombard someone with something until they notice 04:42:41 it's simply: if you think about something, your brain switches from "subconsciously ignore" to "try to find" 04:42:52 advertising could use it, i guess, but it's unrelated 04:43:00 i see what you're getting at 04:43:18 what's it called...self manifestation or something or other 04:43:28 baader-meinhof :P 04:43:37 (I'm not sure why it's called that) 04:44:14 ah 04:44:14 The "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" was coined by a reader of the St. Paul Pioneer Press. The Minnesota newspaper runs a daily column called "Bulletin Board," for which readers, using pseudonyms, submit humorous or interesting anecdotes. The term was coined when a reader submitted a story around 1986,[1] about how he or she first heard about the terrorist group known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang and then heard about it again a short while later from a totally d 04:44:14 ifferent source. 04:44:18 http://www.iterasi.net/openviewer.aspx?sqrlitid=vpdslrou9k6lgly97zdw9w 04:44:21 copy of the WP article 04:44:59 thanks for the article 04:47:32 i guess one day we'll have to accept that we're no longer just about the languages :) 04:48:05 haha, i'm sorry to drag you all so off topic 04:48:14 this is... normal :| 04:48:37 well, i'll be off then 04:48:41 -!- Sgeo[Emacs] has joined. 04:48:48 Testing, testing 04:48:50 it was fun chaps, thanks for humoring me 04:48:50 Sgeo[Emacs]: NO! 04:49:19 What, is rcirc better? 04:49:24 >_< 04:49:25 -!- hekau has quit ("Leaving"). 04:49:30 Using ERC now 04:49:35 Stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it and especially stop THAT but stop the emacs too. 04:49:42 Pit stop. 04:50:22 What 04:50:25 What's so horrible? 04:51:08 I'm not going to use this as my regular client, incidentally 04:51:08 You are using an IRC client written in a dialect of Lisp with no lexical scoping in a no-multitasking, crippled ...thing environment that claims to be an operating system and has so many kludges your brain would hurt. 04:51:12 Just testing it out 04:51:20 *claims to be an editor 04:51:25 Freudian slip there. 04:52:04 Blame the book I bought at least 9 years ago that I thought would be about Macs 04:52:19 No, I blame you because you did this. 04:52:35 Whee lack of lexical scoping! 04:52:52 At least have the decency to use vim if you're going to be using an awful editor. It has a coherent philosophy of combining commands and what they apply to. 04:53:02 test 04:53:09 languages without lexical scoping are great for some things 04:53:11 Test failed because you're using ERC. 04:53:23 I'm now in two channels at once. 04:53:28 You are a bad person. 04:54:05 So, I take it that ehird doesn't like lisp? 04:54:22 Did I say that? 04:54:23 I never said that. 04:54:41 If it doesn't have lexical scoping... or is it just elisp that doesn't have it? 04:54:54 I dislike Lisps with no lexical scoping, a ton of shitness and a bunch of design decisions firmly rooted in the 80s running in a terrible, crippled single-tasking environment that sucks so much because it used to be an editor. 04:55:04 Every Lisp worth its salt has lexical scoping. 04:55:07 Every LANGUAGE worth its salt does. 04:55:10 Even PHP has it. 04:55:53 What happens if I ping Sgeo[Emacs] 04:56:05 You fail at life. 04:56:05 :P 04:56:19 Emacs doesn't react, or otherwise indicate to switch over to it, but the nick's hilighted 05:01:01 For some reason, emacs got confused and decided that my /server was in this window 05:02:08 http://imgur.com/uLH0g.png 05:02:28 Cool, you're not even using EmacsW32. 05:03:32 I didn't even know it existed. Thanks 05:03:40 Use the patched version. 05:03:48 Also, hide the toolbar. It's worthless. 05:06:19 If I said that I was using CUA, what would your reaction be? 05:07:55 That's saner than the Emacs bindings. Too bad you broke your C-x key. Oh wait, it has a hack to fix that. Shazam, it sure is nice hacking around the fact that Emacs is a pile of shit. 05:10:00 Didn't you once tell me to use emacs to edit haskell source? 05:10:17 yes, at the time there was nothing better. maybe leksah is decent these days. 05:10:29 but definitely not for anything that isn't haskell or lisp editing. 05:10:54 ERC has a feature you missed on X-Chat 05:11:04 What? 05:11:07 Being able to click a link and having it open 05:11:27 xchat-gnome has that, and I think it's a setting in xchat. 05:13:43 What's this Pal and Fo... are these just ERC's names for friend and ignore? 05:13:57 Test 05:13:58 Emacs, using different, stupid terminology for existing concepts? 05:13:59 SHOCK HORROR 05:14:02 I AM SHOCKED 05:14:04 AND HORRORED 05:14:08 No, it just made my name grey 05:14:39 Coool. 05:14:43 Cooooooooooool. 05:22:20 C-x C-c 05:22:28 -!- Sgeo[Emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:22:46 Doesn't that cut? OH WAIT IT'S BASED ON THE PRESENCE OF A SELECTION AND A TIME DELAY. 05:22:51 Emacs kludges, I'm shocked. shocked. 05:25:49 It occurs to me that C-c C-c might be ambiguous 05:26:13 -c C-c C-c C-c C-c C 05:26:22 Is it C-c - or C-c C-c? 05:28:30 c-Cc_c-C--CC-C-CCcc-C--C 05:41:54 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:42:17 -!- ehird has joined. 05:43:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:48:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:53:09 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 05:53:16 any ever tried esoc? 05:53:30 sorry, esco 05:53:34 http://esco.sf.net 05:54:41 ha ha ha 05:54:41 s/ $// 05:54:45 esco is a running joke here. well, used to be. 05:55:03 because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki. 05:55:10 Until it became so wildly out of date that we forgot about it. 05:55:11 also, they live in a warped version of reality; 05:55:17 "Byter is a language for training your brain" -esco 05:55:20 "Byter is a language for training brains" -esolang wiki 05:55:35 Gregor: I liked how they implemented all the BF derivatives with a huge amount of boilerplate 05:55:38 Was fun, that. 05:56:08 wildly out of date? the wiki?? 05:56:31 what 05:57:04 I'm wondering what Gregor was referring to 05:57:15 * Rugxulo is looking at the esco package 05:57:34 sure, there's a lot of "boilerplate" there, but the GNU Auto{conf,make} stuff takes more room than anything 05:57:36 it's shit and the idea is shit 05:57:47 written in C++ too (meh) :-/ 05:57:47 brb 05:57:47 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 05:57:59 -!- ehird has joined. 05:58:06 wb wb wb 05:58:18 "now type 'make' and pray"... heh 05:58:45 So much boilerplate... 05:59:01 Guys, you can *totally use macros*. Just saying. 05:59:17 esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary" 05:59:27 macros in C++? isn't that frowned upon? 05:59:31 And yes, it's all pretty poor. 05:59:57 Rugxulo: Because people prefer typing more? 06:00:11 * Rugxulo isn't a C++ dude 06:00:37 C macros are crappy metaprogramming, but it is at least metaprogramming. And C++ *badly* needs it... 06:14:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:14:36 welcome. 06:14:50 welcome. to. 06:15:19 i've recently come to realize math is not as easy as cs. 06:15:41 gasp. 06:15:42 and. 06:16:20 andler 06:16:55 one of the exercises in automata theory took me like 5 hours 06:17:07 i should be a fucking expert! :P 06:17:35 o_O 06:17:40 * Rugxulo got esco to work ... barely 06:17:50 Automata theory is... Both math and CS... 06:18:13 sure, but it's at math dep, therefore has about 40 times harder homework. 06:19:44 i'm not saying math is inherently harder than cs... although i suppose it is 06:19:51 so i guess i am saying that 06:20:48 also enough irc for today, the fun starts in 10 minutes ~> 06:21:27 why, what's 10 min?? 06:23:00 presumably classes. 06:25:04 * Rugxulo considered that although in his part of the world, it's a little after midnight 06:25:50 6:25 am in uk. 06:25:52 he's in fi. 06:29:56 so what exactly were the problems with esco? 06:30:01 it doesn't seem THAT bad 06:30:14 because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki. 06:30:16 esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary" 06:30:41 they were also obnoxious on irc. 06:31:58 * Rugxulo notes the irony of that statement ;-) 06:32:07 * coppro tries to think of the last time he's set himself up for disappointment this much 06:32:23 Rugxulo: I'm an asshole; there's a difference. 06:32:47 ehird, I think IRC itself just lends to colder interaction 06:33:13 it's not just you 06:33:15 (obviously) 06:33:35 yeah, i'm not a dick irl :) 06:33:42 that's mostly due to shyness, though. 06:35:23 BTW, esco isn't that bad an idea, but it's pretty paltry to only support say six languages (I expected lots more) 06:35:58 why is it a good idea. why should every language be written by people who aren't experts in it, and have it all put in one binary 06:36:01 what is the purpose 06:36:28 ahem, Parrot anyone? ;-) 06:37:03 not even slightly similar 06:37:06 parrot is just a vm. 06:37:45 but they have implemented various languages for it 06:37:49 also 06:37:52 irrelevant 06:37:58 the concepts are completely unrelated 06:38:24 esco? 06:40:07 esco.sf.net 06:40:31 ehird, you say they're all slow, but sometimes speed isn't important 06:40:42 it executes as much as possible esoteric languages? 06:40:57 also boo cvs 06:41:22 Rugxulo: so what? 06:41:25 why not just use a standalone interpreter 06:41:47 esco's interpreters all suck their only advantage is that they're all in one binary and maintained by people who don't know the language due to attempting to be jacks of all trades 06:41:50 because a VM has advantages 06:41:51 plus they spammed our wiki. 06:41:57 coppro: they don't have a vm 06:42:01 it's all separate interpreters 06:42:01 oh 06:42:32 on an unrelated note, I should learn to use LLVM 06:43:31 ehird, not all standalone interpreters are created equal anyways 06:43:42 so I don't think esco is necessarily any worse than most 06:43:48 uhhh, what? 06:44:58 for instance, the wiki says BFF4LNR is the fastest interpreter 06:45:30 but that's debatable, esp. since he only used old compilers (and it got worse with Cygwin on the second test, which is suspicious) 06:45:52 so what 06:46:44 all of esco's interpreters are 5-minute affairs that standalone, would be worthless. all it is is a switch over multiple languages executing each one. this is identical to multiple binaries, but stupider, and only serves to try and hide the fact that the interpreters are bad and anyone could make one equivalent in a few minutes: these are not best of breed; they're rubbish 06:46:49 also, they spammed our wiki; did i mention that. 06:47:34 spammed as in what? kept adding over and over and over despite resistance? 06:47:49 and standalone wastes more cluster space, don't cha know ;-) 06:48:01 they added their interpreter to every single language article they supported, and readded them back without comment when they were removed 06:48:11 once months after, iirc 06:48:21 hardly spamming 06:48:39 some people (e.g. Wikipedia) are more against external links than others 06:48:47 the Befunge article on Wikipedia isn't exactly perfect either 06:48:54 * Rugxulo should edit that one of these days 06:49:23 befunge isn't really notable 06:49:52 sure it is, more than HPQ+ (or whatever it's called) ;-) 06:50:09 yeah, and this irc channel is more notable than my toilet. 06:50:10 :P 06:51:02 HQ9 06:51:07 *HQ9+ 06:51:18 there's also the object-oriented variant, HQ9++ 06:56:50 just silly, that one is 06:57:05 not deranged enough ;-) 07:03:58 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 07:34:10 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:34:21 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 07:54:31 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:35 -!- adam_d has joined. 09:03:56 -!- Pthing has joined. 09:40:54 morning 10:12:35 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:26:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:28:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:35:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:52:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 10:53:26 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:02:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:11:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 11:15:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:52:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:59:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 12:27:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:42:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:58:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:59:08 hi everyone 13:59:37 ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck 14:01:27 Define massively powerful 14:02:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 14:07:03 FireFly: Capable of destroying a planet in a single stroke. 14:07:18 I take it you don't have a program to do that? 14:07:25 Or else you'd have used it, I mean 14:07:38 you would've*, I guess 14:08:01 I think it's in a Ubuntu repository somewhere, but I don't have a massively enough powerful desktop. 14:08:15 oerjan, iwc 14:08:17 ais523, hi 14:09:11 hi 14:09:30 FireFly: more powerful than I'm used to computers being 14:09:38 so probably less powerful than whatever ehird has 14:09:47 XD 14:09:49 ais523, specs? 14:09:52 no idea 14:10:04 ais523, cat /proc/cpuinfo free -m lspci 14:10:05 .. 14:10:20 all of those works as non-root 14:10:35 I was just checking the permissions on /proc first 14:10:40 (I'm rather paranoid...) 14:10:51 ais523, you *can't* change proc permissions afaik 14:11:07 well, unless you patch the kernel 14:11:07 you could mount it inside a folder that didn't have the right permissions to seek into it 14:11:12 you do need root perms to mount proc 14:11:37 anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz 14:11:48 Quad 14:11:56 ais523, you need root permissions to mount anything. Except that there is suid stuff to handle stuff like "any user may mount the cd" and such 14:11:58 which runs at 1998MHz, according to the same entry 14:12:11 and yes, it has 4 cores 14:12:16 which seems to fit the name 14:12:23 ais523, about running speed: dynamic cpu speed, will increase ondemand 14:12:28 surely you have seen that before 14:12:29 Hm 14:12:38 probably; I didn't realise that showed up in /proc/cpuinfo though 14:13:13 as for memory, it seems to have 2002516k RAM and 4192924k swap (according to top) 14:13:24 "AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+", @ ~2GHz IIRC 14:13:46 Which is fast enough for me, for now 14:14:01 ais523: All in all, that's not really "massively powerful". You could maybe destroy a small moon with it, I guess. 14:14:27 local-to-HD partitions that are mounted atm seem to have 57.5 GB total space 14:14:34 but my home drive's on a network share somewhere 14:14:41 with an artificially small size 14:14:49 so disk isn't really very easy to measure 14:15:30 What about RAM? 14:15:43 FireFly: 2G, already mentioned. 14:15:47 Ah 14:15:57 Oh, there, missed that line 14:19:41 well, that doesn't look like exactly 2G, but close enough 14:20:00 that number isn't even a mix of binary and decimal multipliers like 1000MiB would be 14:20:11 There's always some bits and pieces reserved for whatever. 14:20:15 maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that 14:20:21 Well, just for the record; this work-workstation is a "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz" (though running at 2 GHz), with 2 GB of memory and a 160G local disk, though with some four-five terabytes of network shares (mostly full); so ais523's box is certainly more powerful. I'd be lucky to manage to destroy a small Kuiper belt object with this. 14:21:41 My desktop computer has about the same specs as that 14:22:40 this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space) 14:22:54 that's generally done by brute force or genetic algorithms, and takes hours as a result 14:23:32 hmm... the clock here seems wrong 14:23:34 We're officially supposed to farm anything that takes more than a trivial amount of computation to our grid for computation. 14:23:36 maybe it's showing UTC? 14:23:59 % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009 14:24:04 also, what's with that prompt? 14:24:16 % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh 14:24:17 AARGH 14:24:27 It says "BST" there, though. Maybe it's just wrong-wrong? 14:24:34 could be 14:24:37 what time is it actually? 14:24:48 Thu Oct 1 13:24:43 UTC 2009 14:24:52 Something like that, UTC. 14:25:13 13:24 is 14:23 BST 14:25:23 help, I've lost an hour somehow 14:25:28 it was 2 pm here over an hour ago 14:25:37 and now everyone's teling me it was only about 24 minutes? 14:26:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:23 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:23 -!- Ilari has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:23 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:23 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:24 -!- coppro has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:25 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:25 -!- Jerry has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:25 -!- MizardX has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:26:25 Hrrm, that recent freenode global notice makes it sound like a deliberate act. 14:26:26 -!- Cerise has joined. 14:26:43 what was the notice? 14:26:51 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:26:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:26:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:26:57 -!- coppro has joined. 14:26:57 -!- Leonidas has joined. 14:26:57 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:26:57 -!- Ilari has joined. 14:26:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:27:11 Ka-pow. That "very shortly" in there wasn't kidding. 14:27:29 [15:25:30] [>> $*] [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience! 14:27:31 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Guest19311. 14:27:33 Was that notice 14:27:43 that's a great notice 14:27:50 I wonder how they discovered the leak? 14:28:00 anyway, I went to a lecture at 2pm 14:28:05 it lasted an hour, then it was 3pm 14:28:09 then I went to my office 14:28:14 now it's half past 2 14:28:18 ...:D 14:28:21 Impressive 14:28:24 conclusion: I'm thinking too much about Feather 14:28:24 "-christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!" 14:28:52 second possibility: someone noticed my initial confusion 14:28:58 and everyone decided to play along 14:29:04 the people in my office could by seeing my screen 14:29:11 and the people on IRC could be sending queries back and forth 14:29:24 third possibility: both the clock tower and the clock in the lecture room are wrong 14:29:28 and the lecture actually started at 1 14:29:41 I think you should go with #1 14:29:45 but in a way which mislead me into thinking it started at 2 14:30:06 (the time has been moved to 1 for next week...) 14:30:38 #2 is appropriately paranoid. 14:32:41 well, Wikipedia says it's 13:30 UTC or thereabouts, and the page I checked that on hasn't been changed since August 14:32:55 so I conclude that it is indeed about half past 2 my time 14:33:23 ah, theory that actually makes sense 14:33:30 I believed that the lecture was at 2 14:33:35 I arrived in good time, over an hour 14:33:43 but when I got there I saw that I only had about 10 minutes left 14:33:48 the lecture was actually at 1 and I misremembered 14:34:02 and I only looked at the clock's minute hand as I was in a hurry 14:34:04 ais523: no no, believing things that are wrong doesn't make sense, just ask ehird 14:34:16 * oerjan whistles innocently 14:34:23 as the lecture was actually starting at the time, this confirmed my belief that it was in fact 2pm 14:35:17 they did change the room the lecture was in, maybe they changed the time at the same time and I didn't notice 14:36:16 so do you usually arrive an hour in advance? maybe your subconscious new anyhow >:) 14:36:26 *knew 14:41:38 AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O 14:42:36 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:42:54 Ouch, we don't want no complex garfields 14:43:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:43:07 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 14:43:19 bye webirc 14:43:29 not sure why I was too lazy to quit over there and used NickServ instead... 14:43:40 FireFly: too late 14:44:12 ais523: i've tried being lazy that way with irssi, doesn't work... 14:44:22 why not? 14:44:32 because irssi reconnects 14:44:47 that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked 14:45:07 kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint... 14:45:35 that's a nick collision though, irssi may not really know about them... 14:45:57 if you get nick-collided while online, it means you're either using your own nick and you did that deliberately (and so don't want a reconnection) 14:46:12 or you're using someone else's nick and you should really get the hint that they don't want you to use it 14:46:13 yes, but irssi has an alternative nick 14:46:39 Or your using your own nick and someone else has tried to steal it. 14:46:52 s/ur/u're/ 14:47:16 they'd need to know your NickServ password to do that 14:47:21 in which case, the correct solution isn't to log on again 14:47:22 In service-less networks, that is. 14:47:27 oh, yes 14:47:41 ais523: oh, but the issue here is that if it was a _real_ nick collision then you wouldn't be able to reconnect because the other nick would still be there... 14:47:43 but logging on again would simply not work in that situation 14:47:47 oerjan: yes 14:47:53 I'm talking about ghosting here 14:48:12 but since freenode's ghosting doesn't do that, irssi doesn't know what is happening 14:48:20 I think we've concluded, that in the only situations in which reconnecting after a nick collision actually works, you don't want to do it 14:48:53 not quite. there is also the issue of moving across netsplits 14:49:21 if you're moving deliberately, your nick isn't on the other side of the netsplit 14:49:30 you'd have to maintain two connections to be on /both/ sides of the netsplit 14:49:42 and you wouldn't want both of them to autoconnect after that or there'd be two of you 14:49:43 erm... 14:50:14 On IRCnet, earlier, the behaviour I remember when netsplit ends and a nick collision is found is to kill both sides. In which case you'd want to reconnect pretty fast to actually get your own nick back. 14:50:34 Nowadays it just forcibly renames both participants, I think. 14:52:08 ok, I see the scenario you're talking about now 14:52:11 you're on one side of a netsplit 14:52:17 someone who wants to steal your nick joins the other side 14:52:21 then the netsplit ends 14:52:55 Yes. That's how nick- and channel-stealing used to be done. (The channel stealing by joining the channel on some server where it was empty, which made you gain ops there.) 14:54:02 In any case, isn't the nick-collision kill is just your regular free-format "whoops, you died" error message? I'm not very sure there's some easily distinguishable and standardized "and don't come back" marker there. 14:56:03 Quite a lot of people do have "auto-rejoin when kicked out of a channel" on, though, and even I can't really figure out a justification for that. 14:57:56 well, the trick is clearly to join the channel simultaneously at 1pm and 2pm 14:58:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:58:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:07:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:49:00 -!- ehird has joined. 16:55:18 good morning america 16:55:28 good morning october 16:56:27 hi mailman reminders 16:56:42 05:59:37 ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck 16:56:48 mid-autumn season here in korea 16:56:51 yes, funnily enough most people with good computers don't always max it out :) 16:56:54 06:11:37 anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz 16:57:07 more powerful than I have; I have a two-core instead of 4 and it's only 2.16GHz 16:57:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Autumn_Festival 16:57:15 ah, ok 16:57:16 also, probably an earlier generation; this is from the first batch of Core 2s 16:57:22 it manages to feel like a corporate computer though 16:57:28 and therefore unperformant no matter how powerful it is 16:57:31 probably because you can't mess with it? 16:57:35 I know it takes several minutes to boot into either Win7 or CentOS 16:57:39 which feels wrong 16:57:49 yes, that's very wrong 16:58:26 ais523: oh, it doesn't even have 2GiB of RAM? 16:58:26 just 1.9GiB 16:58:30 well, let's say 2GiB :P 16:58:39 somewhere between 2GB and 2GiB 16:58:46 ais523: 2GiB is ridiculously little for a quad-core; I have 2.5GiB on this dual-core and it's sometimes limiting 16:59:01 -!- nooga has joined. 16:59:01 4GiB would be the minimum I'd put in a quad-core... 16:59:04 I think the delay on booting is due to network stuff, though 16:59:17 probably 16:59:17 and whatever they did to it... 16:59:30 huh 16:59:36 am i here? 16:59:38 yes 16:59:39 no 16:59:40 06:20:15 maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that 16:59:43 almost certainly 16:59:45 that's not really stupid 16:59:56 i thought you liked using the minimum spec computers you can? 17:00:02 if you're not doing graphics work or gaming, ... 17:00:06 it is in a computer science department, because there's a nonzero chance the people here will want to do weird things with the GPU 17:00:11 true 17:00:22 however, the intel drivers for linux are very stable, albeit very slow at the moment 17:00:25 and open source to boot 17:00:34 so that's probably a plus for you 17:00:44 uhm 17:00:53 stable... yeah 17:01:00 but they get slower and slower 17:01:05 uh, I've not heard of that 17:01:19 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:01:20 this whole compiz used to work normally 17:01:28 also, once the kernel switches to the new graphics stack they should be quite fast 17:01:29 06:22:40 this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space) 17:01:30 at the moment it's a slideshow 17:01:32 not with 2GiB of ram! 17:01:36 nooga: compiz is a piece of shit 17:02:13 99% annoying flash for the sake of it, mostly ripped off from other OSs, and very very very unstable and slow 17:02:19 yep 17:02:33 but there are contraptions that fake OSX goodies 17:02:39 I just turned on compositing in metacity; the window shadows sooth my soul a bit, I guess. 17:02:43 like expo or that window magic 17:02:48 i'd call them more baddies :) 17:03:04 honestly, I still think the taskbar is the best wnidow switcher yet invented 17:03:16 using taskbar is pain for me ;[ 17:03:31 i got used to this fast switching 17:03:35 expose isn't much better if you're browsing mostly text web pages 17:03:45 "oh, I want this nondescript wall of text." 17:04:39 nvm ;[ 17:05:03 06:23:59 % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009 17:05:03 06:24:04 also, what's with that prompt? 17:05:10 it could be zsh! it could be zsh! 17:05:11 06:24:16 % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh 17:05:11 06:24:17 AARGH 17:05:13 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 17:05:21 bash is on there, just not default 17:05:30 also, weird place for binaries 17:05:40 06:25:23 help, I've lost an hour somehow 17:05:40 06:25:28 it was 2 pm here over an hour ago 17:05:49 make your computer not auto-DST 17:05:55 and I'll remind you about it the next time it gives extra hours 17:05:55 ehird: it wasn't that 17:05:59 read on, and you'll see what happened 17:05:59 and you'll get that extra hour back 17:06:04 ais523: nono, I'm trying to remedy the lost hour 17:06:08 ah, I see 17:06:25 actually, I meant that I'd gained an hour 17:06:27 or possibly lost 23 17:06:48 heh 17:07:13 "Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software" 17:07:17 they release dumbuntu 9.10 final beta today :F 17:07:17 in other news, freenode are incompetent 17:07:45 nooga: dumbmostusableoperatingsystemenvironmentontheplanetcurrentlyexistinganditsalsoalmostentirelyfoss 9.10 beta 17:07:53 i can make portmanteaus too 17:08:18 gayphone 17:08:50 there are different genders of iphone? 17:08:57 ;D 17:09:25 mmm foss 17:09:44 distros freezing every package before release? moar like FOSSil amirite 17:11:24 tbh i don't give a shit if something is foss or not 17:11:37 i like if something works :D 17:12:10 I don't use FOSS as the be-all and end-all of things, but I consider being open source to be considerably enhanced functionality as I really enjoy messing around with code 17:12:17 ehird: found the sound problem. Suspend issues 17:12:20 in FOSS, there are more members of the angry mob, and apple can't pull another one of its fucking "LET'S MAKE THINGS LESS CONSISTENT!!!" moves because everyone else says "fuck. no." 17:12:27 what ais523 said 17:12:40 and it's very rare to find a licence that is both open source, and legally lets me make and share changes, but yet is non-free 17:12:46 right 17:12:56 and code under such a licence probably wouldn't do very well anyway 17:13:13 I'd prefer an all-BSD-or-more-lenient-license system, but most of the useful FOSS is GPL'd :P 17:13:34 ...and the BSDs still use a bunch of GPL code, plus I can't deal with bullshit like the ports system 17:13:38 I'd like a compromise, but I know such a thing isn't legally feasible 17:13:47 it's like building a higher idea aroud a hammer or shovel 17:13:50 * coppro knows software like that - the actual software is free, but the datasets are not 17:14:08 what on earth is the point of a compromise? 17:14:18 foss works fine on its own without any restricted bullshit 17:14:39 like, GPL except it doesn't lock you in to the GPL but only to licenses with the same general idea 17:14:47 uselses 17:14:49 *useless 17:14:57 all the viral licenses without many differences are much the same 17:15:22 make everything a beerware 17:15:29 some sort of weak copyleft licence would be weird and interesting 17:15:33 open beerware 17:15:33 I'm not sure if it would be possible 17:15:45 well, I mean stronger than weak copyleft 17:15:49 but weaker than strong copyleft 17:15:51 "beerware: because I want to give you tools that help you make this program worse" 17:16:03 I don't think it would be possible 17:16:18 it wouldn't be gpl-compatible 17:16:23 the gpl doesn't have such a twisted-viral clause 17:16:35 but I find the GPL and similar license to be stronger than I like, and BSD-likes to be weaker than I like 17:16:36 all the compatible licenses would be pretty much rewordings 17:16:43 what's wrong with BSD 17:16:49 the license 17:16:52 yes. 17:17:03 ehird: you can make arbitrary licences, even commercial ones, GPL-compatible by adding a clause allowing derivative works to be licenced under the GPL 17:17:08 it's too weak; I do not want to be giving my code away free to Apple 17:17:32 coppro: that's only because you're an idiot with some sort of irrational hate of apple because steve jobs killed your dog or something 17:17:35 at the very least, I prefer a license with an attribution clause 17:17:37 :p 17:17:42 uh, BSD has an attribution clause 17:17:49 have you actually........ read it 17:18:25 but it's not strong enough for me 17:18:36 you get commercial software with attributions in the credits because there's BSD stuff in it 17:19:01 well, knowing the motivations for such a license I'll avoid using or modifying any of your code, I guess 17:19:06 how obout MIT? 17:19:09 at least most people using the GPL just want to "spread the love" 17:19:12 nooga: identical to BSD2 17:19:18 which is identical to BSD3 minus a redundant clause 17:20:04 really? 17:20:12 oh, right 17:20:24 06:44:47 that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked 17:20:25 06:45:07 kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint... 17:20:26 kicking IS pointlses 17:20:28 *pointless 17:20:33 you could just say "stop that" 17:20:34 not kicking me 17:20:40 it has as much effect and is less stupi 17:20:41 d 17:20:43 but people listen to kicks 17:20:44 given that I don't rejoin if I'm kicked 17:20:45 s/\nd// 17:20:47 for quite a whiel 17:20:48 *while 17:20:50 normally hours 17:20:52 you could just say "stop that" 17:20:54 unless it was obviously done as a joke 17:20:54 it has as much effect and is less stupi 17:21:18 presumably, you're socially functioning enough to be able to be told whatever a kick tells you as words 17:21:23 kicks are only useful in a kickban 17:21:45 ... 17:22:00 I've seen people kick idlers to stop them idling 17:22:02 this ranks among the top most stupidest things I've ever heard ehird utter 17:22:14 well, to stop them getting the things said in there for their privlogs 17:22:16 i'm so amazingly offended coppro 17:22:17 which strikes me as ridiculous 17:22:25 i care deeply about what you think about me 17:22:31 or, less sarcastically, stfu 17:22:37 I suppose, the difference is a person listens to a statement, and their client to kicks 17:22:39 no u 17:22:44 so a kick is basically CTCP STOPTHAT 17:23:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:24:10 ducks 17:24:15 Should root really be running nautilus? 17:24:17 ehird, thanks 17:24:37 ducks ducks quack 17:24:52 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 17:26:39 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:26:39 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:26:39 -!- Ilari has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:26:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:26:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:29:24 -!- Leonidas has joined. 17:33:08 -!- rodgort has joined. 17:38:20 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 18:18:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:25:44 someone should make a keyboard that looks like the xc spectrum 18:25:46 *zx 18:29:23 You could buy a Speccy from eBay, and then it's just a matter of a bit of electronics to get it act as a keyboard. 18:29:55 it only has four non-alphanumeric keys. 18:30:08 enter, "caps shift" (I assume capslock), symbol shift and break space. 18:30:31 you need space and enter, you need shift, so you only have one modifier key: caps shift (which is admittedly in a good position; a big key right to the left of Z) 18:30:47 also, the space is at the far-right of the bottom row, which is strange. and the shift just before that, and it's only as big as aletter 18:30:52 so, the actual layout, not so much 18:31:08 also, somethiing not rubber. but it's so cute! 18:31:11 *something 18:31:29 You can replace the caps-shift key with something pressure-sensitive, and use that for all the conventional modifier keys, depending on how hard you press on it. 18:31:31 http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg, http://www.playretro.co.uk/hardware/sinclair_zx_spectrum.jpg 18:31:39 it looks just like those tiny apple keyboards 18:31:45 and you could fit batteries in the top part 18:31:53 fizzie: ouch :D 18:32:04 http://www.gadgaard.org/gadget_past/sinclair_zx-spectrum_hr_1s.jpg it's also super-thin 18:32:14 I'd say something disparaging about the "space in the corner" thing, but the three-line N900 keyboard is probably almost worse. 18:32:18 in fact it just looks like apple made a netbook. except more colourful 18:32:31 and, uh, with a wireless screen I guess 18:32:38 and no mouse. 18:32:59 fizzie: you have an n900? 18:33:21 No, I've just been looking at the reviews. :p 18:33:25 And the rainbow colors aren't that far from the rainbow Apple logo. 18:33:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:33:44 yes, that's what i was thinking 18:33:46 And I played with one a bit in the Nokia "flagship store" in Helsinki. 18:34:01 anyway, it's oh so tiny. 18:34:10 actually, you know what? 18:34:17 I should buy a speccy and make it into a laptop 18:34:59 make a black bottom box thing with the connectors and a converter to use an LCD, stick it to the bottom of the spectrum, add an on/off switch to it and connect it to a display with minimal frame (painted black if necessary) 18:35:18 mod the speccy case to have hinge ability, if needed modify the screen to do the same 18:35:32 It is http://www.product-reviews.net/tag/zx-spectrum-48k/ 18:35:36 s/It is // 18:36:02 fuck you, you destroy my dreams :( 18:36:07 why can't you leave me in peace :( 18:36:14 Anyway, it looks ugly. 18:36:16 Not sleek in the slightest. 18:36:19 And besides. 18:36:23 built using the Spectrum as a case and keyboard, then the Libretto for innards and the screen. The laptop runs Linux, has a 2-hour battery life and there is plans to emulate some ZX Spectrum games soon. 18:36:29 fizzie: NOT A SPECTRUM >:| 18:36:44 They just ripped open the ZX and put the laptop inside, plus the keyboard stuff. 18:36:50 Yes, I know. 18:36:57 Besides, that screen looks suspiciously widescreen, so it wouldn't even be suitable for ZXy stuff. :P 18:37:01 I was just looking for the "zx spectrum" image search results, actually, not *only* trying to destroy your dreams. 18:37:14 :D 18:37:24 * ehird looks up the dimensions of the speccy 18:37:26 My first computer was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZX_Spectrum%2B.jpg 18:37:37 that keyboard looks even worse than the rubber! 18:37:45 well, depending on what kind of keys they are 18:37:57 hmm, if they're not rubber it's probably better 18:38:00 and might be better anyway, since they're bigger 18:38:11 "injection-moulded keyboard" sez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum 18:38:34 Deewiant: It's not really so cute, though. 18:38:39 The feel of the keys is quite unlike any other keyboard I've ever tried 18:38:45 What 18:38:47 's it ... sort of like 18:38:48 I guess not 18:38:48 s/\n// 18:38:55 But indeed, not cute. 18:39:35 SIZE / WEIGHT 23 x 14,4 x 3 cm / 550g 18:39:40 550g; that's nice and light. 18:40:23 There's another "just keep the case, stick a computer inside" mod at http://programbytes48k.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/un-zx-spectrum-convertido-en-un-mini-pc-con-linux/ but at least that lets you do some eyeball size-comparisons between the speccy and "normal" hardware. 18:40:29 IIRC they feel kinda mushy but still fairly resistant 18:40:45 Anyway, 23 wide and 14.4 high. Too lazy to work out the aspect ratio of the 256x192 screen (did it even have square pixels?) but I'm sure there's a screen with appropriate specs. 18:40:59 Can't really come up with anything to compare to :-/ 18:41:27 256:192 is the traditional 4:3, though I have no clue about Spectrum's pixel shape. 18:41:43 Game Platforms: Sinclair ZX Spectrum 18:41:43 The Sinclair ZX Spectrum was introduced in the early 80s. ... like the Apple ][ or the BBC had more pixels), and most of all, it had square pixels! ... 18:42:00 the pixels were shaped like this: ✡ 18:42:03 The issue is finding a display that's a multiple of 256x192 18:42:15 2560x1920 18:42:17 Oh, 1024x768 works 18:42:26 Just make the pixels into 4x4 squares 18:42:32 So that could be crisp. 18:42:50 512x384 is x2; isn't that the Macintosh's resolution? 18:43:05 ehird: Without extensive messing-around, it's going to be horribly blurry anyway, since the display output of the spectrum is through a RF modulator, to generate a TV signal. 18:43:11 Nah, 512x342. 18:43:27 fizzie: Yes, but the blurriness is what it'd look like on a CRT, no? 18:43:31 At least a reasonable approximation. 18:43:48 I guess, but I'm not sure you're going to have to worry so much about getting the native display resolution "correct". 18:43:58 Sure. 18:44:02 Just saying that 1024x768 is a particular good sizer. 18:44:47 The screen size would be for 4:3 23cm wide would be 23cm wide, 17.25cm high, right? 18:44:56 Someone work out the diagonal. :P 18:45:36 (Hmm; the speccy is 14.4cm deep, so you'd have 2.85cm you could stick on to store stuff.) 18:45:42 Don't we have bots here that can calculate that? 18:45:45 11.3" diagonal, about. 18:45:50 (Drive, batteries, etc.) 18:45:55 fizzie: " or cm? 18:46:02 "; I converteded. 18:46:09 fizzie: That's a nice enough diagonal size. 18:46:29 sqrt(23^2+17.25^2)/2.54 18:46:29 11.31889763779527559055 18:46:29 Hmm, I wonder if you can get homebrew drives; it plugged into a tape recorder thing. 18:46:35 I know they have them for the C64. 18:46:44 Would use a USB pendrive or that sort of internals; nice and small. 18:46:48 prove that x*x >= 0 where x<-R 18:47:05 You could get quite a good battery life out of this; it can't use so much power. 18:47:28 And all you need is the PSU, batteries, a drive and a TV->LCD converter in the extra depth part that the screen plugs into. 18:48:33 If you feel like writing the software yourself, you could connect the drive to the expansion bus. 18:48:49 Surely you could emulate a tape drive? 18:48:52 It's just audio, after all. 18:49:08 There's software to generate the necessary sounds, yes. 18:49:38 And digitalise the sounds and write to disk, presumably; then you wouldn't need the expansion bus, just whatever ports you plugged the tape into. 18:50:33 Step 1. Go into oh-so-hip coffee shop. Step 2. Start up your Speccytop. Step 3. Play a game. Step 4. Program some trivial BASIC. (For steps 3 and 4, make sure people have a chance of seeing you.) Step 5. Run a program that produces a few beeps, and draws a huge "BATTERY LOW" on the screen. Step 6. Plug it in. (Make sure you sat down near a power outlet when entering.) Step 7. More games. Step 8. Unplug it, walk out. 18:50:37 Step 9. ??? 18:50:39 Step 10. Profit! 18:50:44 (Step 9 is "post it on YouTube".) 18:50:45 If x > 0, then x*x > x*0, so x*x > 0. If x = 0, then x*x >= 0. If x < 0, then (-x) > 0, so (-x)*(-x) > 0, so x*x > 0. 18:51:44 what axioms did you use? 18:53:25 ehird: Of course since it's 2009 and all, you could use a nice 13" 1024x768 touchscreen as the display, and make the touch information available through the expansion bus (it's not like it makes sense to leave it completely unused, after all). 18:53:46 But then you can't see the cute dinky ZX. 18:54:09 Besides, it looks less retro. Also, even rubber keys are more tactile than touchscreens. :P 18:54:28 fizzie: Besides, 1024x768? But then we'd have to have black borders around it to fit the keyboard below. 18:54:37 Oh, the touch could just be used by some few custom programs that benefit from it. 18:54:43 (Are there even 4:3 touchscreens that big?) 18:54:48 fizzie: Ah. Why 13" then? 18:55:06 Oh, 11" I mean. Whoops. 18:55:07 (I'm not sure we'll get a ZX to browse the web or anything; this isn't the Contiki-lovin' C64.) 18:56:33 Although that would be nice. 18:56:49 fizzie: That expansion bus - it could be plugged into a modem, yah? 18:56:57 I'm sure IRC, at least, is in the Speccy's abilities... 18:57:12 (Modem being a 3G stick thing, naturally.) 18:57:28 (With necessary converter.) 18:57:32 Sure, one of the actual commercial blobs sold to plug in there has a RS232 serial port. 18:57:58 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 18:58:10 Sweet; I'm sure there's a 3G-stick-to-Ethernet thing, so that'd be uber-trivial. 18:58:16 Although the software would be a bit of a bitch. 18:58:26 Probably best to use a teeny tiny microcontroller to do it. 19:12:22 http://www.theonion.com/content/news/michael_vick_fails_to_inspire_team?utm_source=a-section x_x 19:18:05 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 19:20:38 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 19:22:11 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:24:10 heheh 19:26:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:46:59 Plug modem into ZX, then connect the phone line (somehow) to PC sound input/output. Then run software on PC which acts like a modem and forwards data to/from TUN device... Then configure PC to route packets to TUN device. :-> 19:48:11 The modulation and demodulation of modem signaling at the rates those modems have probably won't be heavy task... 19:48:23 Yees, well, I think not depending on a computer is a good task. 19:48:31 Not task, feature. 19:48:38 *feature 19:49:44 If you want to, emulate PPP on the PC and let to give modem dial command on ZX. Then it just depends on PPP. 19:50:11 Well, I gather it'll be an ethernet cable going into the bus. 19:50:20 And the "modem" will be a 3G mobile internet USB stick; not really very modem-y. 19:51:00 How you plan to connect USB device to ZX? Some microcontroller? 19:51:25 ehird: And additionally, since 3G stick is USB gadget, you need USB host controller. 19:51:36 -!- Azstal has joined. 19:52:08 Ilari: There apparently was sold an RS232<->ZX expansion bus thingy, so it should be a simple matter of using a microcontroller to connect the 3G stick and then get it talking Ethernet. 19:52:36 Then it goes into the ZX, which will run the slowest networking stack ever. 19:53:02 AFAIK, most of the USB microcontroller stuff is USB gadget side, not USB host controllers. 19:53:30 Most FPGA stuff has USB ports; I assume, then, that there are a bunch of tiny microcontroller boards with USB ports. 19:53:35 See, for example: gumstix, BeagleBoard. 19:54:07 BeagleBoard is 3x3" is too big; ais523 says the gumstix are a bit fragile, i.e. not too sturdily built, but they're really tiny (smaller than a pack of gum) so they'd fit nicely. 19:54:34 One question is: Are those USB ports host ports or gadget ports? 19:54:38 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Gumstix_oconnor.JPG; the expansion board to the right has a USB port, I think. 19:54:53 Ilari: Really have no clue. That right-side one looks complicated enough to be the more powerful of those, though. 19:55:50 Those programmable thingsies do tend to support host mode, since it's really pretty much the point that you can plug USB devices into them. 19:56:28 Ah, is the gadget mode just to plug the microcontroller into something and have it act as a USB device? 19:57:10 Incidentally, Nokia's previous tablets (N810 and whatever they were) also support host mode (so you can plug in, say, a keyboard) but the N900 at least officially doesn't. :/ 19:57:42 Hmm, a lot of Spectrum games use a joystick, don't they? 19:58:42 I don't really know about 3G modem stick programming; they implement the USB "CDC" class, but I think they usually speak PPP over whatever is there to do the actual IP traffic. 19:59:10 PPPoE, then. 19:59:39 Where do you have Ethernet in all this? 20:00:29 Oh, crap, I thought RS232 was that standard for Ethernet. 20:00:32 ports, that is 20:00:45 RJ45 in fact, or rather 8P8C. 20:01:03 fizzie: Well, it's easy enough to do PPPoSerial, wouldn't it be? 20:01:43 Well, yes. You just have to convert from serial to the USB serial stuff. (Or directly from whatever you want to do over the extension bus into USB serial transfers.) 20:02:02 And vice-versa. 20:02:35 Strange, this 3G stick I have shows up as two serial ports. 20:02:46 option 1-5:1.0: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected 20:02:46 usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB0 20:02:46 option 1-5:1.1: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected 20:02:46 usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB1 20:04:58 So, now taking bets as to what sort of battery life it'll get. 20:05:05 I bet 4-5 hours. 20:05:07 Maybe 3. 20:05:30 After all, it's underpowered, but we didn't really have as much extremely-low-power-usage tech then. 20:06:44 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:08:16 Given that you need to do something for the "disk drive" too, you might pick one of those SoC-style chips; you could connect a regular USB-interfaced flash drive and the USB 3G stick into the USB interface on it, and have the CPU part do both the spectrum tape drive emulation (those things generally have the necessary A/D and D/A converters to do audio) as well as whatever custom protocol you need over the extension bus (just wire some GPIO pins to it). 20:08:30 Ha, I was about to say something about the disk. 20:09:01 Also, no protocol required, I think; just do something like "read (large number)-fileno". 20:09:13 And then "read (large number)" is a program that prints out filename<->number mappings or something. 20:09:26 Admittedly it might be more convenient to do it over the bus. 20:10:14 fizzie: it's nothing more complex than converting bits to audio and vice versa, isn't it 20:10:17 s/$/?/ 20:10:23 *is it 20:10:38 If you store the spectrum tape images in a suitably "raw" format, I guess it's pretty simple. 20:11:05 The ZX *did* have a joystick, right? 20:11:15 That could be useful for gopher-browsing (I'm sure it can handle *that*) 20:11:34 Or, well, not really, considering the list-of-links format. Still. 20:11:54 I'm not very familiar with the device, but the WP page mentions a joystick interface as one of the things you could plug in the extension bus. 20:12:28 I think the connectors on that thing are limited to audio-in/audio-out (for the tape), the TV-compatible video out, and then the extension bus for everything else. 20:12:43 I'm sure some games used a joystick. 20:12:52 Anyway, could do that as a trackball type thing. 20:12:55 "The ZX Interface 1 add-on module included 8 KB of ROM, an RS-232 serial port, a proprietary LAN interface (called ZX Net), and an interface for the connection of up to eight ZX Microdrives – somewhat unreliable but speedy tape-loop cartridge storage devices released in July 1983." 20:13:06 heh 20:13:14 "ZX Net" sounds so very popular. 20:13:15 wrt the disk drive, it'd clearly be far more retro if we used real tapes. 20:13:48 Well, you can carry an old WalkMan around to go with your Port-a-Spectrum. 20:14:07 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:14:12 Hi :-) 20:14:26 hi 20:14:34 we're discussing making the ZX Spectrum into a laptop. 20:14:42 fizzie: oh, with the tape drive included, of course 20:15:19 Oh, I don't know; in one sense it would be somehow inherently funny to have a tied-to-it-with-a-cable add-on like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SONY_WM-D6C.jpg 20:15:21 in the bit near the screen where the extra stuff is, a horizontal (i.e. not sticking up) tape slot, and some buttons depthwards (i.e., going further to the screen, to save space) 20:15:27 It even says "professional" there. 20:15:35 fizzie: True. :P 20:15:38 Hmmm... didn't someone make a speccy laptop in the 90's? 20:16:07 Dunno. Two people have ripped out the innards and put a PC in there; one person did it to a laptop to have a screen and such. 20:16:31 But I don't know of any actual Spectrum laptops. Besides, we're adding 3G internet and a USB disk-based tape drive to this thing. 20:16:53 Plus an 11" 1024x768 screen! Admittedly only displaying 256x192. 20:17:10 There is an approximate metric buttload of spectrum clones, it does not sound completely unlikely that someone has made a portable model too. 20:17:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 20:17:46 It only counts if it retains the same general form factor of the original speccy, imo. :P 20:17:49 So. Cute. 20:17:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:18:38 I have a Sam Coupe, and a Speccy +3 20:19:08 Why can't I just connect my computer directly to the cable modem? 20:19:21 The +3 makes it sound like a roguelike/RPG weapon. 20:19:36 Sgeo_: Because then you'd have to do routing in software. 20:19:53 ehird, I don't give two **** about the other computers on the network 20:20:04 Sgeo_: you fail 20:20:08 that's not what routing is 20:20:32 I don't understand why all the speccies after the first were so ugly. 20:20:50 I mean, http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg vs http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/sinclair_zx-spectrum-p3_1.jpg 20:21:15 Er, generally the cable modems I've seen have supported a reasonably "direct" USB connection. (Though I don't know whether they pretend to be a standard USB Ethernet device, or just include some custom drivers.) 20:21:55 That's winmodems. 20:22:04 Cable modems generally plug into routers. :P 20:22:08 No, cable modems. 20:22:19 Hmm. Aight then. 20:22:24 I don't actually have cable. 20:23:03 I'd prefer a Jupiter Ace laptop. :-) 20:23:27 The spectrum had 3" or 3.5" disk drives. It's be handy to include those on the portable. 20:23:28 The modems rented by the local cable TV company here -- well, some models, at least -- do support connecting over USB; not sure how widespread that is. (And it's also really buggy; they do recommend doing it over Ethernet if the computer in question has a network interface.) 20:24:39 impomatic: But it already has a wonderful USB-stick-based solid state drive thingy! 20:24:50 You could even attempt to play a song you put on it. :P 20:24:54 (It'll emulate the tape drive.) 20:25:15 Well, I'm not sure the speccy actually has audio. 20:25:22 There's a beeper. 20:25:26 Not very fancy. 20:25:30 Well, yes. 20:25:34 You could decode the wav and record it to the tape as audio; that basically counts as playing. 20:25:40 Of course it'd just be saved as garbage. 20:26:32 I guess the beeper will have to be neutered and redirected to the microcontroller so it can have a headphone slot. 20:26:41 Falling back to the beeper, of course. 20:26:45 Or if that's too hard, a mini speaker. 20:30:22 Someone should port Maniac Mansion to the speccy. :P 20:31:40 http://twitter.com/MSWindows Oh gawd. 20:33:40 Anyway, I'm pretty sure the speccy has enough power to talk PPP over serial, get TCP/IP working, get DNS working, connect to Freenode and chat on IRC. 20:35:17 Hmph, someone's broken the udev on my desktop. It has / on /dev/md0, and /dev/md0 gets auto-assembled just fine, but udev doesn't feel like making the /dev/disk/by-uuid/xxx link, so since the grub config uses (by default) the "root=UUID=xxx" form, it doesn't find the root fs to mount. 20:36:03 (Anyone agree that the speccy could do that? 20:36:05 s/$/)/ 20:37:40 Sure, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Though I wouldn't expect too high data transfer rates. 20:37:59 * Sgeo_ goes to watch The Wall 20:38:04 There's a 25MHz Z80 upgrade available for the Speccy, and a 4MB memory board 20:38:53 fizzie: IRC would work fine at 1KiB/s. 20:38:58 That's two full-length IRC lines. 20:39:14 Heck, even 512B/s; full-length lines aren't so common. 20:39:24 But not less, for a semi-popular channel. 20:39:44 Because of the screen res it'd be best for places like here, and would work fine with ~300B/s. 20:39:48 impomatic: Eh. 20:39:50 If you want a portable spectrum, you could just use ZXDS for the Nintendo DS. :-) 20:39:55 Who needs more than 48KiB of RAM? 20:40:12 Also, the actual Speccy is so cute. And the DS is so not retro. :P Also, rael keyboard. 20:40:14 *real 20:41:20 The C64 with 64KiB can run a full graphical multitasking OS with a web browser (Contiki), and it only has a 1.02MHz 6510 (or 0.985MHz in PAL regions), so I'm sure a Z80 at 3.5MHz with 48KiB of RAM can handle it. 20:41:31 (it = IRC) 20:47:22 The C64 has rather more graphical prowess, though. 20:47:23 Also musical. 20:48:22 Less portable form-factor, since I guess you'd want to have exactly the original, iconic shape. 20:48:53 Oh, there's plenty of C64 laptops. 20:49:00 The ZX is far cuter. 20:49:09 Yes, it's more nettop-like. 20:49:10 And, well, more of an underdog. 20:49:58 fizzie: don't you mean netbook? 20:50:09 Nettop is like that silly Linutop thing. 20:50:15 Oh, right. 20:50:20 I don't even know the modern lingo. 20:50:35 I guess I have known that distinction. 20:50:36 :D 20:50:50 Well, it'll certainly be a nettop, but I doubt that includes HTML over HTTP. 20:50:54 Well, HTTP is fine; HTML less so. 20:51:01 Still, it can probably render simple stuff. 20:51:18 Read http://robotwisdom.com/ on your ZX Spectrum today! 20:52:17 Huh, robot wisdom is dead? 20:52:21 last updated 2006. 20:52:22 *Last 20:52:45 You could make a portable Altair 8800, but that'd just be strange. (I guess in that particular case you'd just run an emulator on a DS or something.) 20:52:58 Flippin' switches 'n shit. 20:53:26 I'm sure it'd attract some attention in a cafe. 20:53:56 "Is that a bomb? POLICE! POLICE! HE'S GOT A BOMB! AAAAAAAA!" 20:54:08 "No, no, it's an Altair-" "-an Altair bomb, riiight. *taze*" 20:54:16 Next day it's on reddit! 20:54:23 There's an Esoteric language for the DS :-) Someone implemented OISC 20:55:29 Ah - "# Robot Wisdom Weblog, since Oct06 continued as part of the Robot Wisdom auxiliary, since Aug09 continued as part of one-bit RWx-auxiliary blog" 20:55:51 The "one-bit" thing seems to be a shared google reader items that looks like a link blog. 20:55:53 http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14569541748422553908 20:56:30 That's rather less simple HTML-wise. 20:58:53 http://c64vsspectrum.com/ Can't we all just get along? 20:59:30 Totally no fair, he just compares them to see which has better games. NO. FAIR. 20:59:56 He doesn't even like Manic Miner: http://c64vsspectrum.com/M.html 21:08:29 ehird: I'm pretty sure that Contiki's web browser is about on par with Lynx. So, yeah, rather basic. :) 21:09:22 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Contiki-avr.png 21:09:24 It does seem so. 21:09:41 (I am at least imagining that you'd be basically running apps about on par with Contiki's on this, if you don't bother porting the whole of Contiki) 21:09:46 (That screenshot there, apart frmo the high resolution, can totally be reproduced with a speccy, I'm sure.) 21:09:50 Well, apart from "processes". 21:10:01 pikhq: Sure, but Contiki doesn't exactly do much. 21:10:15 The display is kinda the bottleneck. 21:10:17 Yeah. It's one of the simplest OSes I know of. 21:10:20 There's not much you can fit. 21:10:42 Still, if you draw your own text you should be able to fit a few lines of IRC. 21:10:57 The GUI is an optional feature of Contiki. 21:11:10 I know that. 21:11:15 Okay. 21:11:28 But I don't think you can have the browser without the GUI. 21:13:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:19:28 I just had a fun idea! 21:19:37 Does Windows 95 work in VirtualBox? Let's find out! To the piratescope! 21:22:18 I think I have a win98 VirtualBox box somewhere; don't think I've tried plain '95. 21:22:25 Should I install via floppy or CD? 21:22:31 CD is less annoying, but floppy is more lollerific. 21:22:41 I've tested it in Virtual PC, I don't know about VirtualBox 21:23:06 It's fun complaining to people that their sites are broken in IE 3.0 21:23:16 :D 21:23:44 Hey, VirtualBox's UI is appealing on Linux. 21:23:57 My day just keeps getting better and better. 21:24:50 VirtualBox uses Qt 4. And it doesn't suck horribly. 21:24:55 Nice property, that. 21:25:07 * pikhq vomits at VMware Server for a bit 21:25:17 Yeah; Qt 4's font rendering hints too much vs GTK here, but otherwise it looks identical. 21:25:22 QGtkStyle isn't horrific, then. 21:25:44 How many megs do you think I should use? 21:25:53 32? 21:26:03 I'd give it a whole two gigs, but really now. 21:26:36 640 kB. 21:26:49 after all, that's enough for everyone. 21:27:00 95? Give it 64 MB and watch it never, ever swap. 21:27:10 That's what VirtualBox recommended, but that's so... unrealistic... 21:27:13 (unless you use loadlin on it) 21:27:35 Decent amount of 95 machines had 64 MB of RAM. 21:27:46 Would it not do the same with 32? 21:27:54 About as well. 21:28:03 A few things would actually use the extra RAM. 21:28:09 Eh, 64 it is. It's just that the minimum was 4MiB, and yeah, that's really sub-optimal, but... 21:28:26 Then again, this is going to run with 2.16GHz of Core 2 power; it's not gonna be realistic. 21:28:33 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 21:28:39 VMs are such fun; every OS you can imagine in a few clix. 21:28:45 Well. VMs + piracy. 21:29:10 A 2GB HD should do nicely, methinks? 21:29:25 Certainly. 21:29:41 And I'll use a CD to avoid changing all the damn floppies. 21:29:46 My old 95 machine had 8 GB, but it was quite silly. And I don't think that ever got used. 21:30:09 "# 21:30:09 * Win95.iso 73 Mb" 21:30:09 yet 21:30:09 "# Microsoft Windows 95 operating system.iso 581 Mb" 21:30:09 wat. 21:30:11 and 21:30:12 "# 21:30:13 * msw95-repoc.iso 589 Mb" 21:30:37 What an odd disrepancy. 21:30:43 *discrepancy 21:31:45 I 21:31:47 MUST 21:31:48 WRITE 21:31:50 CODE!!!! 21:31:51 AAAAA 21:31:52 Hey, the layotu of the edit-VM page is much better on Linux. 21:31:54 nooga: Fuck off. 21:31:56 *layout 21:32:15 (Hey, I'm refining my "be crass without passing my conscious subsystem" code. Sorry about that nooga.) 21:32:33 okay 21:32:43 I can't believe I really typed that automatically. 21:33:29 pikhq: what do you think is the difference between the 73 and 589 versions? 21:33:32 one might be fake... 21:33:40 ehird: I'm going to assume the 73 is fake. 21:33:52 I know that Microsoft filled that disc. 21:33:56 pikhq: Yeah, but consider that 95 fit on a few floppies. 21:33:58 Well, okay. 21:34:18 581 vs 589... well, the # Microsoft Windows 95 operating system also comse with an ISO burner, serial keys for the burner, and a "READ ME". 21:34:20 So I'll go with that one. 21:34:23 msn client is heavier than w95 21:34:29 Irritating that I have to download so much; oh well. 21:35:18 4 hours remaining. 21:35:20 don't forget to play Hover 21:35:23 I hope that speeds up. 21:35:23 Yay, it did. 21:35:29 Over 200KiB/s. 21:35:30 Less than an hour remaining! 21:35:31 The Windows 95 CD came with more features and a metric fuckton of videos on the disc... 21:35:56 (why the fuck did it have music videos, anyways?) 21:36:29 i can create x-rays using my hands :D 21:36:32 http://tom.whitwell.googlepages.com/mssound1.mp3 21:36:50 cto http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/video-the-scotc/ 21:36:55 It sounds so much better than the 98 version... Yay Eno. 21:37:51 Hey, I also like Windows 2000. Nobody really appreciates it. 21:37:55 Also, if that's not 95 OSR/1 or greater, then you'll need to get a copy of IE to get a TCP/IP stack. 21:37:58 pikhq: 95 didn't have serial keys, did it? 21:38:06 Not that I recall. 21:38:27 pikhq: Oh; do you think in the 589 one, the extra 8 is OSR/1? 21:38:33 I doubt it shrunk. 21:38:42 *Maybe*? 21:39:02 No matter; this one is the fastest. 21:39:08 That one doesn't have any seeders, just 14 leechers. 21:39:12 That isn't going to, you know, work. 21:39:21 OSR/2.1 and OSR/2.5 added the USB stack and FAT32... 21:39:52 FAT 16 is perfectly acceptable; I only have a 2 gig drive in this thing. :P 21:39:55 Hey, I do appreciate the 2k. I stuck with it a long time on that secondary Windows box. 21:40:17 fizzie: Hooray for you, then. 21:40:32 They also added MMX support and 686 support with that. 21:40:45 MMX? Psht, I have 3DNow!. 21:41:05 It says on the little sticker. Pentium III MMX+ 3DNow! 21:41:14 *MMX 21:41:18 3DNow! is a superet of MMX. ;) 21:41:27 Yes, but I have more than MMX, you see. :P 21:41:27 A superego of MMX. 21:41:33 Superid. 21:41:50 pikhq: you accidentally the s 21:42:00 ehird: Yes, yes I. 21:42:06 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/PentiumMMX-presslogo.jpg 21:42:10 See it! Hear it! Experience it! 21:42:53 Hmm. I'm uploading this torrent at 0KiB/s. 21:42:56 Hope they don't mind. :P 21:42:58 A nice ratio of 0. 21:43:06 So strange that torrents actually work. 21:43:31 Hey, I should try 4.3BSD. 21:43:46 I think my brain didn't register that I had a VM and could download operating systems until a few minutes ago... 21:44:40 There was a very shiny sticker that came with the Pentium 233 MMX I bought, though I guess it was a bit less colorful. 21:45:16 I bet my father's workstation-tower-sized Pentium 4 powerhouse is still running Windows Me. 21:45:25 That thing was ridiculously stable. 21:45:29 It never crashed once, apparently. 21:45:38 Or any program. 21:45:48 That's really weird, given Me's reputation; and even my own experiences with it. 21:46:04 Yeah, exactly. I was using Me at the time too and it was unstable as fuck. But then my hardware was really bad. 21:46:09 You must have befriended the magical Windows Me fairy. 21:46:18 Those workstation towers are so tall. 21:46:47 The floor of that room is filled with cables and everything around the computer is musical equipment; quite a lot of it. It's quite the sight. 21:47:09 I haven't seen it in years, though, so I don't know if it's actually still like that. 21:47:14 I think the p233MMX was close to the fastest thing on the "regular" consumer market when I bought it; such speed, such power; it was really quite a "rush". (Is that the word?) 21:47:32 Pentium H: for when you need your hit. 21:47:34 Not that it lasted very long before the Pentium II came along. 21:51:12 Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option. 21:51:48 1997-08 for the "Tillamook" 233 MHz MMX; one of the last models, though apparently they did release 266 MHz and 300 MHz variants in 1998 and 1999. And the 333 MHz Pentium II in January 1998; so it was fast for a whole 4-5 months before becoming obsolete. 21:51:54 They still measured line width in micrometres instead of nanometres back then. (Okay, so 0.25 µm is 250 nm, but it's still reported in µm in Wikipedia.) 21:51:55 Anyone knwo how to do that? 21:52:06 *know 21:52:53 You can do it with VBoxManage, at least. 21:53:15 Something like "VBoxManage modifyvm --floppy empty" 21:53:36 I'm not sure what it then looks like in the GUI. 21:54:00 [ ] Mount Floppy Drive 21:54:10 Which apparently indeed does not distinguish between "empty" and "disabled". (I'm not sure which one it does if you just uncheck the mount floppy drive box.) 21:54:10 ( ) Host Floppy Drive 21:54:20 [ ] 21:54:26 ( ) Image File 21:54:36 [ ] 21:54:41 erm 21:54:42 [ ] 21:54:51 gives an error. 21:54:58 "On the Floppy page, Floppy image file is not selected" 21:56:50 "40 minutes remaining"; that got worse. 21:56:58 That's quite... Dumb. 21:57:51 Yes. 21:58:39 Speaking of Windows 95, you'll probably want to the same thing that was recommended for win98 guests -- to run rain20 from http://www.benchtest.com/downloads/index.html since win95 won't automatically execute HLT instructions when idle, causing quite a lot of CPU use for VirtualBox. 21:58:49 I accidentally the verb, too. 21:59:17 Eh, who cares. :P 21:59:19 Although I might. 21:59:43 So Windows 95 always uses all your CPU? 21:59:50 Yes; energy saving is for hippies. 22:00:07 Those chips must have run hot. 22:00:37 There's one for DOS too somewhere; it was really quite a good idea for VirtualBox-enabled DOS use, since 100 % CPU load makes the fans in this box a lot more audible. 22:01:12 dosidle210.zip, right. 22:01:18 I can tell if 100% CPU is being used by ear, but I normally don't *notice* it for a few minutes. 22:01:24 It's quite sublte. 22:01:24 *subtle 22:01:28 I can hear them spin down once I stop it, though. 22:02:28 This is far from subtle; will have to consider the noise side a bit more when the next hardware upgrade year rolls along. 22:03:31 fizzie: Exception: FreeDOS. 22:03:47 (... I think FreeDOS just already includes that, though.) 22:03:53 Was lucky of me to jump on the Core 2 bandwagon so quickly; this December 2006 machine is still nice and fast. 22:04:08 And all I've done is upgrade the ram from 1GiB to 2.5GiB; I should have got it with 2GiB in the first place. 22:04:25 That was December 2008, so even the 1GiB lasted me fine for quite a while. 22:04:36 Heck, I only upgraded from Tiger to Leopard in February... 2009. 22:04:40 (It came out late 2007.) 22:05:05 2007-08-07 HLT in the DOS idle loop in FreeDOS SVN. Or some-such. 22:09:09 AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O <-- yeah 22:09:57 Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option. <-- eh? 22:10:05 What do you mean, eh? 22:10:07 if no floppy is inserted there will be no floppy? 22:10:14 No floppy in the drive. 22:10:18 as in, eject the floppy 22:10:18 The drive certainly responds to stuff, though. 22:10:29 AnMaster: In the VM edit 22:10:32 not when booted 22:10:49 I want this new VM to have a floppy drive. I do not want it to have any floppies in. 22:10:57 ehird, um my laptop is packed down in my backpack for tomorrow so can't check. No virtualbox on desktop 22:11:13 ehird, hm iirc there is always a floppy drive 22:11:23 Is there? Aight then. 22:11:27 ehird, *IIRC* 22:11:41 so double check by booting some iso in it and see if it is true 22:11:45 No biggie. I doubt 95 will install to a floppiless system anyway, so we'll see. 22:12:05 * AnMaster sets the alarm clock for 06:15 22:12:13 Crazy person. 22:12:32 Even DOS will run just fine on a floppiless system... 22:12:41 Well, okay. 22:12:58 I can't imagine Windows being *less* flexible. 22:12:59 (Someone should make a bloated Microsoft DOS "distro" with a ton of stuff, and have it fill up a CD. :P) 22:13:12 Does Windows have TSR? 22:13:14 Crazy person. <-- about 06:15? 22:13:14 DIDN'T THINK SO 22:13:28 Does Windows let you access all the hardware directly without any setup? 22:13:28 DIDN'T THINK SO 22:13:33 AnMaster: Yes. 22:14:06 ehird: Yes and yes. (note: Windows non-NT was quite screwy) 22:14:17 Bah. :P 22:14:25 ehird, oh, just need to remove the frozen water from the car windows tomorrow before leaving. Temperature during night is less than 0 C after all.. 22:14:45 otherwise I would set the clock for 06:20 22:15:25 Crazy. Person. 22:15:38 Running DOS programs in Windows was not just mere DOS emulation. If you tried accessing the hardware directly from the DOS box, then DOS would go full-screen. ... Meaning that the Windows kernel would start acting as a TSR for interrupt handling and do nothing else. 22:15:49 pikhq: Yah, I know that much. 22:15:52 That's why Alley Cat works! 22:15:53 :P 22:16:22 And TSRs would still terminate and stay resident. 22:16:25 ehird, no. Crazy uni with stuff starting at 08:00 (and I need to commute...) 22:16:51 So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader? 22:16:51 (I seem to recall that in order to access CDs with DOS programs, you had to use mscdex, even in Windows...) 22:16:56 Yes. 22:17:00 :D 22:17:36 It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops. 22:17:37 So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader? <-- hm... loadlin worked inside win9x? 22:17:43 AnMaster: Yes. 22:17:48 Because DOS programs did. 22:18:10 It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops. <-- the linux -> windows way could maybe be done with kexec actually 22:18:58 It'd basically be a case of "kexec a kernel that wipes all traces of Linux and then bootloads Windows". 22:19:03 saving state though... 22:19:09 It'd be great. 22:19:17 Like fast user switching, except OSs, not users, and slow. :P 22:19:19 ehird, yeah... you could make it suspend to disk for linux at least 22:19:31 not sure about windows 22:19:38 Windows can hibernate, but the problem is resuming. 22:19:45 ehird, oh? 22:19:45 You could make loadlin suspend Windows to disk itself. 22:19:51 pikhq: That's the idea. 22:19:54 Well, I guess it'd work 22:19:55 pikhq, well yes... 22:19:56 But 22:19:57 the thing is 22:19:59 Loadwin 22:20:05 Hmm 22:20:07 No, it'd work 22:20:15 It'd be quite slow, but it'd work fine 22:20:15 That'd just be a kexec call. 22:20:21 Right. 22:20:26 That'd be so much fun. 22:20:34 ehird, for linux the best way is s2disk. I think loadlin could even boot from resume even 22:20:37 Quicker than dual-booting, at least. :P 22:20:42 err scratch one "even" 22:20:53 AnMaster: loadlin just loads the kernel like normal, so it can do the regular resume stuff. 22:21:15 ehird, right, as long as you can provide a command line like resume=/dev/sda5 or whatever 22:21:21 Yep. 22:21:34 * AnMaster have never used loadlin 22:21:39 Hee, I should do this with my Win95 setup once it's installed. 22:21:45 AnMaster: *has >_< 22:21:57 ehird, no I don't has >_< 22:22:00 loadlin takes as its first argument the vmlinuz and the rest is the kernel command line. 22:22:02 Not have, has. 22:22:12 pikhq: loadlin could theoretically boot, say, FreeBSD, right? 22:22:13 :P 22:22:19 (and parsed as LILO does with regard to vga=) 22:22:21 I don't think so 22:22:23 I mean, GRUB can, and it's not too far off. 22:22:47 Heck, you could modify loadlin to run GRUB; all it does is dismantle the DOS around it, and then you're in boot-up land. 22:22:56 ehird: If you patched it to handle BSD kernels or made a small stub "kernel" in Linux kernel format to load FreeBSD, sure. 22:22:59 I very much doubt this just does a regular "load multiboot kernel" kind of thing 22:23:20 AnMaster: It does a regular "load Linux kernel" kind of thing. 22:23:28 Just modify it to load GRUB with a specified configuration file to immediately load the other OS. 22:23:40 ehird: That's also quite doable. 22:23:40 pikhq, well is that "load any multiboot kernel" or "load just linux kernel"? 22:23:41 Voila, you can switch to any OS without rebooting. 22:23:53 Then writing an equivalent for Linux and BSDs would be trivial. 22:23:56 This'd be great, actually. 22:23:58 AnMaster: Linux uses its own kernel format. 22:24:03 bzImage. 22:24:18 I mean, it's kinda hard to hibernate, then boot into another OS, with today's OSs. 22:24:27 pikhq, hm? I thought grub just loaded multiboot ELF images? 22:24:31 And this'd save a few seconds. 22:24:32 :D 22:24:38 No. GRUB *also* supports that. 22:24:46 pikhq, aha 22:24:57 well then, bsd will be harder for loadlin 22:24:58 IIRC, Xen is the only mainstream thing to use Multiboot. 22:25:02 And if you hacked up all your OSs to boot in like 15 seconds (Ubuntu is getting 5 seconds on an SSD for 9.10, so)... 22:25:06 Instant OS switching! 22:25:23 Also, Multiboot is about the only useful thing to come out of HURD yet. 22:25:33 * Sgeo_ would love instant OS switching 22:25:50 ehird, the "load any from win9x" would be easy. and "load any from linux" too (kexec). But for BSD hm...? 22:25:52 Oh, VMware's hypervisor also uses it. 22:25:57 I'm sure BSD has some sort of kexec thing. 22:26:10 pikhq, lots of small OS projects do too 22:26:16 Sgeo_: You could even set up IRC clients on both; they'd reconnect when resumed, so you'd only ever lose IRC connection for, oh, 20-30 seconds. 22:26:16 not mainstream though 22:26:33 Do what? 22:26:36 Multiboot? 22:26:46 Yeah. 22:26:53 Multiboot is like 5-10 lines of assembly. If you're C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB), it's the obvious thing to do. 22:27:11 "C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB)" <--- eh? 22:27:23 GRUB is written in C. 22:27:41 If you're writing, e.g. ehirdOS, you won't want to use it. 22:27:46 Also, Multiboot is pretty much written assuming you'll be writing the kernel entry point in C. 22:27:52 Yep. 22:27:56 What would ehirdOS be written in? 22:28:01 pikhq: Well, assembly. 22:28:02 Passing on to C. 22:28:09 ehird: Well, yeah. 22:28:10 well, just because you don't write in a language yourself doesn't mean you feel unable to use a program written in said lang does it? 22:28:12 Sgeo_: Assembly, maybe Forth, and Lisp or Smalltalk. 22:28:29 AnMaster: I'd explain why using GRUB would be The Wrong Thing, but it'd be tedious because, you know, it's you. 22:28:36 AnMaster: I don't think he wants to deal with details like C structs. 22:28:36 I should try to learn Lisp 22:28:50 I think I tried once, and proceeded to forget absolutely everything 22:28:56 It's the same reason I wouldn't use freetype or anything else C. 22:29:00 (GRUB passes the entry point a C struct with a bunch of pointers in it...) 22:29:07 pikhq, hm fair enough. A bit of a pain to construct an ELF header manually I guess 22:29:12 Because C is The Wrong Thing, and it infects things using it with The Wrong Things. 22:29:22 ehird, dogmatic much? 22:29:33 :D 22:29:38 No, Sgeo_; I've just used C software a lot. 22:30:03 Admittedly it seems "natural" for someone used to the idiocies of low level programming, redundant memory/disk address spaces and oh-so-much more. 22:30:18 doesn't multiboot give you 32-bit at entry? 22:30:26 But I'm not particularly interested in rebutting that at the moment, having more fun things to do like try Windows 95. 22:30:28 Should I learn Common Lisp, or Scheme? 22:30:28 AnMaster: Yes. 22:30:30 thus making it less of a pain to set up protected mode 22:30:38 Sgeo_: no. 22:30:39 Well, maybe. 22:30:47 pikhq, how does multiboot work on non-x86 then? 22:30:53 Sgeo_: Start with R5RS (not R6RS; just don't use PLT Scheme and you'll be fine) Scheme. 22:31:16 Sgeo_: If you hate it because you're a stupid loser poopyhead, try Common Lisp (implementation SBCL). 22:31:20 * Sgeo_ has no clue what any of that means 22:31:25 AnMaster: Multiboot 2.0 which will support that doesn't exist yet. 22:31:27 That is not surprising. 22:31:28 pikhq, for example, 16-bit platforms? Or ones that start natively in 64-bit mode? Or something strange like IA64 22:31:36 pikhq, hah 22:31:39 GRUB is x86 only. 22:31:42 And Multiboot is x86 only. 22:31:58 GRUB 2.0 is portable, as is Multiboot 2.0. 22:32:01 Both are works in progress. 22:32:09 both are vaporware 22:32:26 grub 1 has been "dead" for like 10 years 22:32:27 grub 2 is the best thing ever hur hur garbleblargle 22:32:27 Hey, Win95 downloaderated. 22:32:28 GRUB 2 is in beta ATM. 22:32:30 PSOX was considered vaporware once 22:32:38 Now should I be rude and cut of this seeding. 22:32:40 *off 22:33:00 (and works just fine) 22:33:49 grub 1 stagnated because of grub 2 22:34:02 Yup. 22:34:37 "As we all know,Microsoft has never released the Windows 95 operating system which was bootable from the CD-ROM disk and which you could install by using just the CD-ROM disk.You would always 22:34:37 need those boot diskettes to boot from the Microsoft Windows 95 CD-ROM disk and to install Microsoft Windows 95 operating system..." 22:34:38 I was unaware. 22:35:06 Looks like it's a patched .iso to handle that for you. 22:35:08 How convenient. 22:35:18 -The size of the hard disk drive on which you are planning to install Microsoft Windows 95 22:35:19 operating system must be at least 9 GB in size 22:35:19 wat 22:35:53 Oh well, this should do. 22:35:54 Boot! 22:36:17 "Starting Windows 98". This thing uses 98 to boot 95. 22:36:28 night → 22:36:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:36:47 9 GB? O_o 22:36:48 Hahah. 22:37:02 So, I need to do X:\SETUP.EXE and it'll start the Windows 95 installer. 22:37:06 The thing itself fits in around 200 MB 22:37:10 I'm at a Windows 98 DOS prompt :P 22:37:21 It used that Oak Corporation CD driver; I remember that! 22:37:42 Heh, I need to make an MS-DOS boot partition to set up Windows. 22:38:00 But I have fdisk! So yay. 22:38:05 "Your computer has a disk larger than 512 MB". Yes, turn on large disk support. :P 22:38:21 Oh, apparently some versions of Windows 95 aren't compatible with that. 22:38:31 Ah, it just means "use FAT32". 22:38:32 Lame. 22:39:19 *Oak Technology, not corporation. 22:40:17 It formatted the 2GB C: in less than a second. :P 22:40:58 Hoorah! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95.png 22:41:37 Wonder if the 30-60 min estimate is accurate 22:41:44 I think not. 22:41:58 I'll set a stopwatch off once I get to the actual installing meat. 22:42:11 Or, uh, just note down the time. 22:42:22 Yes I accept the license agreement. Not. :P 22:42:37 Ha, it lets you install somewhere else than C:\WINDOWS. 22:42:58 Heh, it has its own Portable install configuration for laptops. 22:43:17 pikhq: It didn't have serials. But it had a Certificate of Authenticity. 22:43:21 Which is just a smaller serial key. 22:44:13 "Try this 22:44:13 22901-oem-0009093-18985" 22:44:13 Thank you, Google. 22:44:39 Aand it works. 22:44:41 *Aaand 22:45:06 Yes, Windows 95, I have both a Network Adapter and a Sound, MIDI, or Video Capture Card. 22:45:18 The pointer flickers a remarkable amount. 22:45:32 10:45 22:45:36 it started checking for hardware 22:45:58 (It's a hands-off part, so I'll include this in the total and just add a bit to account for them adding user input to the time.) 22:46:55 Done. 22:47:06 And it's 47 now. 22:47:08 So about two minutes. 22:47:25 Hey, a startup disk to start my computer and run diagnostic programs if I have trouble starting Windows! 22:47:26 No thanks. 22:47:37 10:47 22:47:40 Copying files. 22:47:45 17% already 22:47:47 27% 22:47:53 Yeah, this is going to be quick. :P 22:48:07 It's flashing all these marketing screens, but I can barely read two paragraphs before they flicker away. 22:48:18 Wow, they had Microsoft Exchange then. 22:48:21 And The Microsoft Network was an ISP. 22:48:31 30 to 60 min = 1x to 8x CD-ROM drive? 22:48:35 Probably. 22:48:36 Done. 22:48:39 It's copied the files. 22:48:47 So that took under two minutes. 22:48:54 Now going to restart and finish Setup! 22:49:15 Heh; it thinks I have a floppy in the drive because the startup disk thing is emulating one. 22:49:18 It's okay, man. Restart. 22:49:38 Uh oh, was that a boot failure? 22:49:41 I'll just hard-reset. 22:49:52 There we go. 22:49:55 It's hands-off now. 22:50:01 "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..." 22:50:07 And we're back in Setup, still hands off. 22:50:27 Not now. 22:50:27 I need to provide the computer and workgroup names for the network! 22:50:42 Computer name: Eno 22:50:50 Workgroup: 95 22:51:07 Description: Windows 95 22:51:17 Now it wants the Windows 95 CD-ROM. 22:51:22 Hope the boot-up CD-ROM suffices. 22:51:46 Ah, I just need to locate the Windows 95 files on it. 22:51:52 Without a file browser, sigh. 22:51:55 * ehird mounts the iso 22:52:18 X:\WIN95\. Simple enough. Why is it X:\? 22:52:39 Oh, I see. 22:52:46 It can't find netapi.dll, i.e. the networking stuff. 22:52:50 I'll have to download IE or whatever. 22:53:50 No mapi32... 22:53:57 pikhq: think I should just start over and omit the networking stuff? 22:54:55 I guess. 22:56:55 Okay, let's try that again. 22:57:00 In Setup. 22:57:41 Heh, it doesn't ask about the network this time. 22:57:42 I wonder why. 22:57:46 Hands off. 22:57:49 Analyzing computer. 22:58:51 Maybe it's working now? 22:59:24 . 22:59:25 Hands on. 22:59:36 pikhq: Nah; it just doesn't realise it has a network now for some reason. 22:59:49 . 22:59:51 Hands off. 22:59:52 Copying files. 23:01:11 . 23:01:12 Hands on. 23:01:29 . 23:01:31 Restarting. 23:01:33 Okay, it's failed. 23:01:37 Hard rebooting. 23:01:50 Hands off, kinda. 23:01:57 Okay, really hands off. 23:01:59 It's booting Setup. 23:02:03 Windows protection error. 23:02:04 Uh-oh. 23:02:10 Restart. 23:02:22 And, again. 23:02:27 Fuck shitting bullhorns. 23:02:49 Maybe it doesn't like AC97. 23:03:57 "" 23:03:59 oops 23:04:03 win95 does not usually work on a cpu faster than 300 mhz... 23:04:03 there is a patch to get it to work... but I doubt it would work on a 2.8ghz 23:04:03 machine. 23:04:17 "Try installing the AMD high speed processor patch." 23:04:18 lulz 23:04:31 Please note that the fix described, 23:04:32 and also mentioned by Ben Myers in another reply in this thread, does NOT work on 23:04:32 Win95 Gold or Win95A, which is what you have according to your description 23:04:32 o 23:05:08 So, basically, I'm fucked at the momnet. 23:05:12 *moment 23:05:47 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/192841 23:05:47 hmm 23:06:08 i'll try it a few times more first 23:08:34 Command prompt works, so let's try running this patch. 23:13:38 lol, win /d:fmsvx gets in 23:13:47 (every troubleshooting option apart from networking) 23:14:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:14:51 Feast your eyes on the not-yet-fully-installed Windows 95 in safe mode! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95-safe-mode.png 23:15:02 It seems to be using DOS filenames. 23:15:40 Access floppy drive = BSOD! 23:15:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:15:54 And Windows freezes if you continue from it, naturally. 23:19:11 OK, 32-bit seems to be what breaks it. 23:19:25 Or not. 23:19:53 There we go. Just 16-bit-disk-accses safe mode works. 23:19:54 *access 23:20:56 And exploring A: works. 23:21:28 Update complete, bringing with it spam ISP links. 23:21:34 Why am I not surprised, Microsoft? 23:22:04 Okay, let's try and boot into normal Windows 95, then run Setup to fix my awful mistakes. 23:22:06 Hey, did that work? 23:22:19 It's setting up my hardware, apparently. 23:22:35 And running Setup! 23:22:36 Hands off. 23:22:41 BSOD. 23:22:47 Deewiant: they were right about 30-60 minutes... 23:22:51 LOL 23:22:53 I can continue through the BSOD 23:22:57 Hands on. 23:23:00 :-) 23:23:21 Rebooting. 23:23:24 Why are you messing with Win95 anyway 23:23:41 Enter Network Password! 23:23:46 Hands on, installation probably finished. 23:23:57 Deewiant: Why not? It's not totally alien and DOSlike like 3.11, but it's not all modern and icky and internetty like 98. 23:24:17 It has no pretences of being a "real" OS, yet it has so much gooey GUI. 23:24:25 People typically have reasons for installing old OSes 23:24:27 Hey, in that background you can see one of Microsoft's split-keyboard-in-one-unit things. 23:24:37 Deewiant: Have VM, bittorrent sites, will install OSs. 23:24:46 Whatever 23:24:48 * ehird skips networking 23:24:51 And there we go. 23:24:52 i want a split keyboard 23:24:54 All installed, booted up. 23:25:09 do fully split, wireless keyboards exist? 23:25:10 Windows Tour wants the silly CD-ROM. :P 23:25:10 Go with NT 3.1 23:25:18 lament: Not wireless. 23:25:23 Deewiant: That's basically 3.11. 23:25:29 lament: Why do you need wireless? :P 23:25:32 3.51* 23:25:41 ehird: because it's fully split 23:25:45 lament: so? 23:25:49 "What happened to my program groups?" "What happened to File Manager?" --Windows Help 23:25:56 ehird: kinesis sells a keyboard where the two halves are connected by a 20-inch cord. That's lame. 23:26:02 lament: ah, I see 23:26:05 so what, mount it on your chair :D 23:26:12 and mount the cables on your chair's back 23:26:14 20-inch is not long enough for that 23:26:20 How big is your chair 23:26:26 more than 20 inches 23:26:33 Sweet, dragging the scrollbar doesn't do anything until you leave go 23:26:41 Graphics are very choppy. Did it really flicker this much? 23:26:46 Even just moving the mouse. 23:26:54 Icon on the desktop: "The Internet". 23:27:07 * ehird clicks Properties. Looks like IE. 23:27:14 It opens IE settings, I think. 23:27:16 IE 3, presumably. 23:27:33 WTF 23:27:36 It didn't install the sounds :( 23:27:59 Sweet, I have *four* floppy drives 23:28:41 Haha, setup.exe runs fine on a booted 95 system 23:28:57 Wow, explorer switches to list view if the folder has a lot of entries. 23:28:58 That's clever. 23:31:19 -!- coppro has joined. 23:43:36 pikhq: the 79MB one wasn't faked 23:43:40 that's the size of \win95 23:46:27 this has microsoft chat 23:46:37 aw, no 23:46:39 it's some telephone thing 23:47:14 FAILBOT READY TO OPERATE 23:47:17 COMMAND? 23:47:21 fail 23:47:24 fail 23:47:36 you succeeded at failing 23:47:37 FAIL 23:47:38 but you're failbot 23:47:41 so you failed at being failbot 23:47:55 YEAH! score! 23:48:42 that went exactly as i planned :D 23:49:08 so it succeeded at going to plan? 23:49:11 i thought you were failbot! 23:49:25 i was just pretending 23:49:38 but hmm 23:49:51 i could write a failbot that fails at failing 23:50:29 it could also fail at failing at failing 23:50:32 holy shit 23:50:53 i never metafailbot i didn't like *barely avoids falling anvil* 23:50:54 recursive failbot 23:50:55 it'd succeed at being xzibit, which isn't failing. 23:52:18 Hmph, I seem to have no audio drivers either. 23:52:21 huh... what?! formal languages tomorrow at 8 in the morning :F 23:52:22 Let's get the internet on this thing. 23:53:01 It can't find the file on the CD-ROM; why am I surprised. 23:53:07 Hint: I'm not. 23:53:51 Ohh. 23:53:52 It's looking in X: 23:53:55 but my CD drive is now H: 23:54:07 Tada! 23:54:08 weird smileys 23:54:12 i like C: one 23:54:15 Windows 95 drive letters. :P 23:54:24 it's like deeper :) backwards 23:54:50 P: 23:55:01 An unexpected error has occurred! 23:55:05 Say it ain't so, IE 3. 23:55:05 :D 23:55:11 windows :D 23:55:37 I sort of forgive it; I *am* running it in a VM with modern hardware, after all. 23:56:09 An expected error has occurred! 23:56:12 This VGA driver is oh-so-very slow. 23:56:41 ehird: So... Win95 is 79mb, but it requires 9GB free? 23:56:42 WTF? 23:56:47 It didn't. 23:56:49 O_ 23:56:55 D: 23:56:59 The 9GB figure was included in the torrent's info file. 23:57:00 It's bullshit. 23:57:29 Ah. 23:57:37 i remember playing neverhood under 95 23:57:41 In fact it's only using 115MB; I haven't got the system sounds, though, just the Microsoft Sound. Maybe because my audio doesn't work it decided not to copy them. 23:57:41 as a kid :D 23:57:42 OMG 23:57:44 The Neverhood 23:57:46 I love that game so much. 23:57:55 clayman ftw! 23:58:03 brb, sleep 23:58:11 Klaymen, you mean. 23:58:22 oh 23:58:28 I looked up the guy behind it and Earthworm Jim a few years back; he's a crazy conservative Christian type. :( 23:58:42 ;f 23:58:43 (USA-style Republican.) 23:59:01 anyway goodnight 23:59:07 Bad night! 23:59:08 :P 23:59:10 Good night. 23:59:26 pikhq: Say, it's possible IE 3 didn't do HTTP 1.1, isn't it? 23:59:36 ehird: Possible, sure. 23:59:43 >_< you can't hit the bottom-left corner to open the start menu 23:59:44 fitt's law fail 2009-10-02: 00:00:47 I don't have ipconfig or winipcfg... uh oh. 00:01:34 To Add/Remove Programs we go, to modify the system! 00:01:45 You know, Explorer and the Start Menu are quite nice in 95. 00:02:15 * ehird dicks the multimedia sound schemes 00:02:17 ... 00:02:19 TICKS 00:02:25 And sound recorder. 00:02:46 And Volume Control... 00:03:51 Can't find anything ethernetty, but we'll do that later. 00:04:22 Ah. 00:04:26 I haven't installed TCP/IP. 00:04:26 Heh. 00:05:35 Restarting! 00:06:26 You know, 98 sucked a lot more than 95. 00:07:14 Windows 3.11 for Workgroups RULZ 00:07:20 Not rly. 00:07:26 OMG IT ROX UR SOX 00:07:35 I've been please waiting while my computer shuts down for a long time now, 95. 00:07:40 Mind if I reboot? 00:08:48 Microsoft 00:08:51 Windows 95 00:08:54 Microsoft Internet Explorer 00:09:02 I like what you've done to my splash screen, 95. 00:09:29 Apart from a JScript compilation error, MSN is loading. 00:09:36 It is teh ugly. 00:09:50 nethack.org, though, is beautiful! 00:09:59 The grey background perfectly compliments the black logo. 00:10:39 Anyone know how to make the 95 VGA driver not horribly slow? Thought not. 00:14:31 Good that the internet's working, though. 00:15:25 Oh, OF COURSE AC'97 won't work! 00:15:27 Keyword '97. 00:16:13 * ehird emulates a Soundblaster 16 instead 00:16:40 There's probably a more suitable video driver than VGA. 00:16:56 Yes, and it's in VirtualBox's guest additions, which *probably* don't support Windows 95... 00:17:10 I mean a generic one. 00:17:13 Ah. 00:17:14 e.g. some generic VESA driver. 00:17:14 True. 00:17:21 Yes, I'll give that a try. 00:17:32 But wow it's slow. Just shutting down takes forever to draw the screen-dimming checkerboard. 00:17:35 I can watch it go by. 00:18:19 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:19:20 I wonder what the Gameport Joystick it found is... 00:19:34 Oh, no; don't tell me it can't find a file. 00:20:15 Would help if I mounted the CD. 00:20:47 Oh, Qt isn't hinting more; it's just using a font one point size to small. Like that Grinch fellow. 00:20:54 Why hello there, frozen 95. 00:22:18 * ehird is thrown into the 98 booter for the hacked 95 CD, and elects to boot windows with C:\win 00:22:46 Well, windows\win. 00:23:04 Aww, it can't start like that. 00:23:05 Oh well. 00:24:43 Aaand there's Eno's soothing tones. 00:27:00 Gregor: Far as I can tell 95 doesn't have any VESA drivers! 00:27:06 It does have a selection of VGA ones, though, and an SVGA one. 00:27:24 Well, there's "Standard PCI Graphics Adapter (XGA)". 00:27:28 Try SVGA, that should still be better. 00:27:44 Whatsabout that PCI XGA one? 00:27:45 I'm not sure it's being exposed as PCI. 00:27:48 Not a clue 00:28:02 SVGA it is. 00:28:05 OTHER HARDWARE CONFLICTS DUN DUN DUN 00:28:06 No shit 00:28:16 Hey an alert sound. It sucks. 00:28:26 Windows 95 is being annoyingly usable so far. 00:28:36 It's meant to be all complicated and ancient so I can laugh at it. 00:29:17 And it crashes like usual, so I'll reboot and it'll install it on start-up. 00:31:12 Well it failed at that; it can't find drivers for Unknown Device. 00:31:14 Let's try again. 00:31:43 Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze 00:31:52 Reboot 00:31:58 Realise I didn't put the 98 disc in 00:31:59 Put in 00:32:06 Boot 95 00:33:38 Ah. 00:33:42 It's currently using PCI/VGA. 00:33:47 I'll try PCI/XGA. 00:34:19 Apply, restart and here we go. 00:34:39 I love how 95 can restart without going through the BIOS. 00:35:02 Okay, the XGA driver isn't compatible, but it falled back. 00:35:08 ...you know, Xorg doesn't fall back. 00:35:28 I will note that Xorg sucks. 00:35:29 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:35:53 It's impossible for something to do X where X is failing at X. 00:35:56 Or, uh, wait. 00:36:14 Aaand I can have 800x600 with 16 colours, plus change my font sizes. 00:37:22 Works, but is just as slow. 00:39:56 Apparently I'm using a Pentium Pro. 00:44:25 freenode's java applet fails because there's no document.getElementById :) 00:45:27 JScript didn't support object literals, then... 00:47:36 mIRC still supports Windows 95?!?!!?!?! 00:47:45 Wow... 00:50:09 -!- ehird95 has joined. 00:50:25 Am I possibly the prers on using the oldest OS to enter here? 00:50:38 :Harumph, backspace doesn't work. 00:50:41 lol 00:50:51 I don't think anyone's used anythinig older than Windows 95 to come here, anyway. 00:50:53 ^H ftw 00:51:05 Greetz from Windows 95 Telnet. 00:51:18 coppro: despite what I told Telnet, freenode's IRC link is anonot a VT100. 00:51:29 It will be dstripping out my backspaces. 00:51:44 Although I'm avoiding using that key, due to it, you nkow, being useless. 00:52:29 Hi. 00:53:34 mIRC works on windows 95, you know. 00:53:40 although I suppose telnet is preferable to mIRC. 00:53:45 See two lines beofore I entered. 00:53:56 Anyway, mIRc is C is so bloated thseese days. 00:54:07 It wouldn't feel... 95. 00:54:07 * Azstal makes a note to be less lazy 00:54:13 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 00:54:45 Is there a Telnet option to wait for the whole line beofore ensending? 00:54:53 Is there an option to read the - oh, there it is. 00:55:04 it would feel slightly 95-y if you left it in fixedsys 00:55:05 Silly laggy network stack. 00:55:16 Asztal: BUT ONLY SLIGHTLT 00:55:18 SLIGHTLY 00:55:49 Any ideas for making the grahics performance less cripplingly slow? 00:58:06 * ehird95 makes 95 not prompt for a network logon on startup, reboots to persist that setting and see if it works 00:58:15 Yes, I did just type that using literal Ctrl-As. 00:58:27 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:58:55 Actually it prompts me for a username and password, but I can skip that to disable it. 00:59:52 Hmm, it wants a username though. 01:00:02 So what was my username before this, I wonder? 01:04:22 "BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 T6" 01:04:23 ^_^ 01:05:03 the Ig Nobels are on :) 01:06:01 the ig nobels vaguely irriate me 01:06:06 *irritate 01:06:30 it groups valid research with homeopaths, and says to the valid researchers "your work seems amusing to the common man! harde har har!" 01:12:14 the Rule of Funny wins 01:12:30 lol 01:12:32 this is hilariou 01:14:13 what 01:14:34 nobody talks about windows 95 on google :( 01:14:34 all xp 01:16:38 ehird: I always use literal Ctrl-As to type my ACTIONs when doing IRC via telnet. 01:16:55 Warrigal: Yes, but this is Windows Telnet. 01:16:59 Graphical. Weird thing. 01:17:21 "If you want True color or high resolution, you need to download special drivers. 01:17:21 http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm" 01:17:22 ... hyperterminal? 01:17:22 Harumph 01:17:25 Asztal: nah 01:18:14 VBEMP x86 Project 01:18:14 Universal VESA/VBE Video Display Driver 01:18:14 (for Windows 9x x86 Architecture) 01:18:16 So, this is it. 01:20:43 Some old version of Opera is likely to be the snappiest, most compatible browser for this, right? 01:21:42 What version of IE is on there, if any? 01:22:02 IE 3. 01:22:06 IE4 doesn't work with msn.com, incidentally 01:22:16 I can probably get IE 5.5 or something, max. 01:22:18 What OSes were IE2 and 1 for? 01:22:27 3.0 or 3.11 or something 01:22:29 I got IE6 working on Win98 01:23:24 * ehird reboots, installs the third-party VESA driver, yay? 01:24:16 Heh, IE 3 can't do about:blank 01:24:35 C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\BLANK.HTM 01:24:36 I remember playing with IE's about:some_html 01:24:37 Stuff 01:24:41 Yeah. 01:25:16 You know, by "IE is a part of the OS" I think they meant "we forgot to make folders, so we have our HTM files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM and stuff, and we can't figure out how to extract all the files". 01:25:30 And lo, Marketing went: "And this is Good." 01:26:20 I wish my mouse wheel worked. 01:26:24 I thought IE wasn't considered part of the OS until 98? 01:27:38 "Slow driver operation when user scroll, move or resize a window." 01:27:40 D'oh 01:27:44 Sgeo_: Probably true 01:28:07 Sgeo_: It's certainly an OS *component* in 95, though. 01:28:16 It even changes the boot splash to include "Microsoft Internet Explorer". 01:28:36 o.O 01:28:56 * Sgeo_ remembers changing his bootscreen to Userfriendly stuff 01:29:54 Should have changed it to your desktop background, say with a fake window saying "Starting Windows...". It'd feel like the graphics have initialised earlier, providing that your resolution was low enough that it didn't look all pixelated. :P 01:30:08 "It's so fast now!" 01:30:13 heh 01:32:00 Cool, 95 can't handle PNGs by default. 01:34:40 Well, PNG came out in 1997 I think. 01:35:39 Sgeo_: The service pack for 95 included IE. 01:35:51 Made some rather massive patches. 01:36:03 ehird, clearly, we should all switch back to .gif! 01:36:06 (largely for the sake of "ITS PART OF THE OS!") 01:36:34 .gif has wider support than .png! 01:36:45 (The patent on GIFs ran out, right?) 01:37:00 Yes. 01:37:07 Well, on the algorithm. 01:37:21 Hmm, I need to unzip things. 01:37:29 I guess WinZip is my best option for 95... 01:37:31 An old version. 01:45:04 7-Zip lists its first working version as 98; worth the risk, I wonder? 01:46:40 Apparently some older 7-Zips worked on 95, so. 01:46:52 An older WinZip might actually be lighter, though. 01:47:35 It's impossible to use sourceforge's download site with IE 3, so old WinZip it is. 01:55:08 "Tight integration with the Windows 95 shell" 01:55:11 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :P 01:56:29 Happily disabled. 01:56:41 WinZip 6.2, circa 1996. 01:56:55 It looks like every WinZip version. 01:57:28 "CompuServe mail: 70056,241" 01:57:41 "Bringing the convenience of Windows to the use of ZIP files" 01:57:55 Ooh, and it still has that Path column instead of showing a hierarchical view. 01:58:05 Why do they do that? 02:00:16 Driver installed with a double-click, files deletes. 02:00:17 *deleted 02:02:03 Okay, not *quite* double-clicking; think I need to use it as a Have Disk. 02:03:04 Yep. 02:03:17 Ohnoes, an error D: 02:03:36 Well, I'll reboot and hope for the best. 02:04:08 Pow! Kazap! That's some fast display technology! 02:04:25 256 color?!!?! Let's use... AWESOME COLOURW^W32-bit 02:04:28 *^W^W 02:04:58 It only goes to 800x600; probably because of the 256-colour thing. Should be able to bunk that up post-32bitizing. 02:05:06 Aw, nope. 02:05:10 Can VESA only do 800x600? 02:08:18 Yeah, indeed. 02:08:20 Oh well. 02:08:59 "Users employing the Windows 95 operating system who want to install Opera 9.5 are therefore advised to download and install the free Windows Sockets 2.0 update from Microsoft." 02:09:09 They... still supported 95 as of last version? 02:12:00 * ehird installs Rain, then sets about finding a browser, IRC client 02:16:09 And so my fan spins down; thanks, Rain. 02:21:55 * ehird installs IntelliPoint drivers 4.01 for Windows 95 02:21:55 Should include Wheel Mouse drivers, which should enable the mouse wheel. 02:22:50 ...apparently these MOUSE DRIVERS require a newer IE. 02:23:04 WAT 02:23:17 I've been talking to myself for an awful long while; anyone there? 02:23:42 Nein. 02:23:48 Thought so. 02:24:02 Any ideas how the fuck some mouse drivers for Windows 95 could require IE in any way? 02:24:11 Or is it just forcing me to install it because of bullshit, and lying to me about why? 02:25:44 Heh, it's unable to launch IE5setup.exe anyway. 02:25:59 I'll Just Use An Older Version(TM). 02:35:46 I think they've removed the fucking drivers. 02:49:33 hello everyone 02:49:38 O_O 02:49:55 long time no see 02:50:37 i have 40-50 math problems a week, plus a few hundred pages to read 02:50:53 ah the overachieving thing 02:50:58 yes 02:51:26 * coppro has lots of work he should be doing 02:51:41 such as doing a bonus assignment to bring my test mark in Bio up to 100% :D 02:52:21 -!- ehird_ has joined. 02:52:27 hi oklopol 02:52:27 really my competitiveness is completely rational, in automata theory, i was disappointed there was no problem only i had done 02:52:29 he was here before oerjan 02:52:31 yesterday i think 02:52:40 didn't matter i was the only one to have done them all 02:53:01 ehird_: i'm sure you quoted that from months ago :D 02:53:14 i was here this morning i think 02:53:15 i mean 02:53:18 yesterday 02:54:06 well i was probably sleeping. as i will soon. 02:55:51 windows 95 is cool. 02:57:52 hmm formatting one of those extraneous disk drives instantly closes virtualbox 02:57:58 i guess they're non-floppy things that it mistakes for floppies :) 02:58:04 god windows 95 is so quick to boot up 02:58:10 hmm... this pizza guy is bad, but he doesn't set a record 02:58:45 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:58:54 also i was disappointed the guy in the wheelchair who can only mumble and bite his arm was actually just an average student, i had my hawking fantasies 02:59:07 *facepalm* 02:59:14 :D 02:59:47 :D 03:00:12 * oerjan now has fantasies of him being a pizza guy on the side 03:00:13 oerjan: you mean moutharm 03:00:16 * ehird_ shot 03:00:29 * ehird_ braces for swatting 03:00:56 how do you know i suffer from brachiophagia -----### 03:01:17 so, see you later, need to go do stuff -> 03:01:50 only skin deep, but still 03:02:15 bye oklopol 03:02:22 funnily enough, CSS level 2 isn't out but CSS level 3 is already being drafted 03:05:23 huh 03:05:26 you're wrong 03:05:31 it's only css 2.1 that isn't out 03:08:53 gah, I like Windows 95 03:09:00 so upsetting 03:11:37 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:12:05 -!- Asztal has joined. 03:12:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:12:15 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:29:40 Please Tell Me Why You Are Still Useing Windows 95 WHEN You Can Buy a Recon XP Machine Of A Decent Spec for 75 Pounds Why Are U Still F**king Around With 95 Well Ok I Still Have A 98 Machine But Thats ON 24 7 for my email inbox for work it sa pice of s**t but i only need 4 emails --Annoyances.org Windows 95 forum 03:31:34 clearly that guy has the annoyance part spot on 03:31:58 it's like idiot poetry. 03:46:07 ehird_: you weren't entirely correct about Intel drivers sucking less that ATI. Less stuff works, but the stuff that works works better 03:46:10 s/less that/more than/ 03:48:36 less stuff like what? 03:48:39 anyway, it's still shit slow 03:49:15 it is less choppy 03:49:21 and I can run compositing and OGL at the same time 04:02:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:06:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:10:54 -!- ehird_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:08 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:09 -!- Asztal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:09 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:12:43 -!- Asztal has joined. 04:12:43 -!- ehird_ has joined. 04:12:43 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Leonidas has joined. 04:12:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Warrigal has joined. 04:13:19 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 04:13:25 no nickserv 04:13:27 anyway 04:13:28 * ehird upgrades MSIE 3.0 to MSIE 3.02 to get the new WinInet.dll for Opera 9 04:14:02 no worky :( 04:14:09 * ehird sees if he can persuade opera 10 to run 04:14:30 ah 04:14:35 perhaps with the classic installer 04:14:39 if that doesn't work, opera 9.64 classic installer 04:17:21 "Warning: Using this option requires all users on this computer to be administrators." 04:17:32 Users? Administrators? What do you speak of, clearly modern program! 04:18:26 "The system library Msimg32.dll is missing or too old, so certain transparency effects will be slow and possibly not drawn corectly. Obtaining the library from a Windows ME installation and placing it in your Windows system directory will fix this." 04:18:42 Well gee, I don't think I'm going to be infecting this VM with the virus you speak of... :P 04:19:02 It, uh, holy shit. 04:19:03 It works. 04:19:18 Like, works works. 04:19:20 Properly. 04:19:28 ...Slowly... 04:19:38 No that LIES 04:19:44 nothing from ME is good EVER 04:19:52 I mean Opera 10. 04:19:55 ...on Windows 9. 04:19:57 *95 04:20:04 You've gotta wonder why they bother coding for it. 04:20:08 -!- augur has joined. 04:20:09 Must be a bitch. 04:20:16 SPEAKING OF BITCHES HI AUGUR 04:20:37 ha, it really works properly 04:20:42 reddit.com renders in a few seconds smoothly 04:20:52 OH HEY EHIRD 04:21:44 For my next trick, I'm going to fucking - wait for it - try to install Flash. 04:21:54 I WILL CONQUER YOU, WINDOWS 95! 04:22:00 I WILL FIND WHAT YOU CANNOT DO, AND I WILL SPIT AT THEE! 04:22:52 "Windows 98/ME" WELL THAT'S BASICALLY LIKE 95! 04:23:04 Heh, no Flash 10 for me, oh no, only 9 04:23:38 Bah. 04:23:41 Unsupported operating system. 04:23:44 Well I'll just go for the previous version! 04:26:17 Note to self: Make it so that hovering over Opera's menu doesn't highlight them; other programs don't do that,. 04:26:18 *that. 04:34:06 -!- ehird95 has joined. 04:34:10 Hello! 04:34:20 I'm using Opera 10 on Windows 95. 04:34:51 VERSION Opera/9.80 (Windows 95; U; en) Presto/2.2.15 Version/10.00 04:36:26 I ought to see if mIRC would run better... hey, why is Opera in my system tray? 04:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:37:46 Hmm... how can I remove it... 04:45:08 -!- augur has joined. 04:45:27 Hi augur. 04:45:49 oh hi ehi- 04:45:51 WAIT A MINUTE 04:45:58 What 04:46:03 *What. 04:46:06 next itll be ehird98 04:46:09 then ehird2000 04:46:11 then ehirdME 04:46:17 and so on 04:46:20 GOOD GOD MAN 04:46:33 Naw. 98 is boring, but 2000 is fun. Me is just oh god. 04:46:41 augur: also, I'm actually using Windows 95 to type this line. 04:46:58 huh. 04:47:15 I'm using Opera 10, which also renders modern webpages really snappily just fine. Admittedly 95 is being virtualised under a system with a 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo. 04:47:21 The VM only has 64MiB of RAM though. 04:47:37 Also, my scroll wheel works. 04:47:52 -!- ehird95 has left (?). 04:48:22 -!- ehird95 has joined. 04:48:25 Eep. 04:48:28 Opera crashed there. 04:49:00 Anyway, I actually had to install drivers for Microsoft mice, but they enable the scroll wheel just fine... 04:49:55 Hi augur. 04:52:56 o hai 04:53:38 So, the latest mIRC should also work with 95. 05:01:11 I don't suppose anyone knows of a good tool to measure memory and CPU usage by individual processes in a list for windows 9x? Thought not. 05:10:14 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:10:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:40:46 -!- ehird95 has joined. 05:40:57 test 05:41:00 test 05:46:24 I wonder if ehird95 will say something. 05:47:53 likely! 05:48:10 -!- ehird95 has quit. 05:48:26 -!- ehird95 has joined. 05:50:06 I wonder why opening a DOS prompt garbles everything. 05:50:43 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:30:23 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:42:16 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:43:30 -!- ehird95 has joined. 06:43:46 mwahaha! 06:43:57 with the glorious power of the registry, I have enabled full colour icons! 06:45:36 oh 06:45:51 I was limited to 800x600 because of the setting of the monitor to svga 800x600 06:45:52 silly me 06:46:19 now i can have up to 1600x1200! 06:49:19 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:56:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:59:54 * Rugxulo wonders why ehird is obsessed with visual effects ... 07:14:09 * Rugxulo is brainstorming for suitable words using A, A, T ("skip to next line" idiom in ETA) 07:15:01 can't use any of the following before those, though: HTAOINSE 07:15:08 (well, not easily) 07:17:41 "apathy", "a cat", "Paul Blart", ... 07:18:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:39:07 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:46:37 -!- ehird95 has joined. 07:47:20 Rugxulo: i'm not "obsessed with visual effects" 07:47:29 it's just that the 16-color icons for modern programs are reaaaaaaaaaaally ugly 07:47:42 and it's just one registry change to fix the *artificially limited* colors 07:47:49 (to sell Win95 Plus!) 07:48:13 I don't think they sell Plus! anymore 07:48:36 Rugxulo: yeah, they don't sell Windows 95 any more, either; but that's what I did the hack on because when they made 95 they were trying to sell Plus!. 07:48:39 besides, I think Vista is different 07:48:55 do you realise that the icons were 16-color before... 07:49:00 (uses .PNG or whatever) 07:49:06 never cared, honestly 07:49:18 I was fixing an intentional deficiency in Windows 95 so that the icons for modern programs were legible; it took about 10 seconds. 07:49:20 I remember playing games that came with Windows 98 Plus! 07:49:41 Nobody makes 16-color icons nowadays, so they're illegible blobs. 07:50:05 * Sgeo__ wonders if Windows 98 Plus! would work in Xp 07:50:06 XP 07:50:10 doubt it 07:50:32 MS couldn't even get Vista out the door without breaking MSVC 2k5 etc. 07:51:04 Anyway, I've had no luck getting a widescreen resolution, though Nathan of toastytech.com used Windows 95 with a widescreen monitor as his main OS as recently as a few years ago, iirc 07:51:14 But that's with a Voodoo card; I just have this lowly VESA thing. 07:51:33 Still, it's pushing 1280x1024 at the moment, with a small black bar at the top and bottom and big ones to the sides. 07:51:41 The graphics performance is... not stellar. 07:52:00 But menus and windows and such pop up instantly, and Opera 10 is more or less usable when it isn't apparently using up all the CPU. 07:52:28 I'd be surprised if Opera 10 did that, but who knows ... 07:53:00 Rugxulo: did what? 07:53:01 * Rugxulo has been using Chrome a lot lately, so has been neglecting Opera, Firefox, etc. 07:53:08 hogged all your cpu(s) 07:53:16 Rugxulo: I can't use Chrome because it requires 2000/XP and I'm using 95. 07:53:36 even Firefox 2.0.0.18 (or whatever) still works on Win95, right? 07:53:42 No, only Firefox <2 07:53:49 Besides, Opera 10 supports more stuff and is waaaay more snappy. 07:53:49 but yeah, if you're using an older computer without multi-core, a lot of stuff won't be as fast 07:54:07 I'm 99% sure that 2.0.0.18 supports Win98 at least (not Win95 also??) 07:54:09 Oh, I have two cores; it's just that I'm using an OS that thinks I'm running the top-of-the-line processor, a Pentium Pro. 07:54:15 (it's in a VM) 07:54:18 Win95 is not dual core friendly 07:54:20 Rugxulo: 2 drops support for 95 07:54:23 ah, VM, no wonder it's slow 07:54:25 No 07:54:32 Nowadays VMs run the code directly on the CPU 07:54:49 Only the hardware is emulated 07:54:52 not all of it, and even then that's only with virtualization extensions 07:54:56 And it doesn't take much to push some pixels 07:55:00 I still don't understand how Win95 and Win98 are so different. I know that a lot of stuff runs on 98 but not 95, but WHY? 07:55:00 It's just that the VESA driver is, well, slow 07:55:13 Rugxulo: Of course I'm using the virtualization extensions 07:55:20 VMs are worthlessly slow without them 07:55:34 slow is still better than nothing 07:55:37 Sgeo__: Win98 replaces explorer with IE. Most else is artificial. 07:55:51 Rugxulo: I don't *need* to run Win95; if I had to have it so slow I probably wouldn't bother 07:56:00 * Rugxulo doesn't know all the differences either, but Win98SE had a different driver model, no? 07:56:12 why are you running Win95, then? 07:56:21 Because 95 is fun. 07:56:40 by itself? or do you have apps too? 07:56:43 It's quite modern - can run an impressive amount of Windows software - and uses the same basic GUI paradigm as in the ever-popular XP - and yet it's really simple. 07:57:13 Rugxulo: It's 95/OSR1 07:57:21 which comes on a CD and bundles IE 3 07:57:24 I remember and used it 07:57:35 I upgraded IE from 3.0 to 3.02 to get a new DLL file for Opera 10 07:57:48 heh, my copy was an "upgrade", came with two floppies for Win 3.0 and like 16 more 1.68 MB overformatted floppies for Win95 itself (pre-OSR2.5) 07:57:48 Ugh, this song is not how my nostalgic memory remembers it, but it has to be the right song 07:57:59 Software I'm using: Microsoft IntelliPoint 3.something (for MS mice, but it makes the mouse wheel work) 07:58:03 mIRC 07:58:03 I'm very surprised Opera 10 works 07:58:05 Opera 10 07:58:09 old WinZip 07:58:15 actually, I was kinda pissed when a lot of people dropped support for Win9x fairly recently 07:58:18 WinZip 6.2 07:58:20 circa like 1996 07:58:27 (Firefox, Pelles C, soon Cygwin, etc.) 07:58:28 Rugxulo: codewise 9x is a bitch. 07:58:41 I'm just glad that the Opera and mIRC devs are crazy. 07:58:41 more than DOS? doubt it ;-) 07:58:49 With DOS you just poke the hardware. 07:58:55 remember, I like DOS ;-) 07:58:58 With 9x you poke the hardware through a buggy and fucked-up additional layer. 07:59:14 you can use the wheel in DOS too (CuteMouse) 07:59:23 Opera 10 is stunning for the OS, though; it can render modern pages in seconds 07:59:33 very very lucky that it works there 07:59:37 yep 07:59:57 it's still an officially supported platform, and they have knowledge-base articles about it for fixing problems as recently as opera 9 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:01 (circa 2006 or something) 08:00:09 explaining that you have to install winsock2 08:00:10 kudos to them 08:00:15 so some crazy people must be using opera on windows 95 08:00:18 i mean, apart from me 08:00:29 obviously 08:00:42 heck, even some things (e.g. VirtualBox since 1.52 or so) don't even run on Win2k !! 08:00:46 gotta wonder if the execs have got word of that... don't think they'd be so fond of spending so many resources for that 0.0001% :-) 08:00:48 so getting Win9x compatibility is even harder! 08:01:07 If I developed Windows software I'd never think about supporting 9x, just for my sanity 08:01:27 well, you're too young ... if you grew up with it, it might be different (nostalgia, experience, etc.) 08:01:30 I don't really care if support is dropped; this is a fun historical curiosity and something to put on less beefy machines, not a hyper-duper-workstation-2009 08:01:35 and I can always use old versions 08:01:54 Rugxulo: Hey, I grew up with 3.11. 08:02:00 Win9x is limited in max. RAM anyways, and SATA drives are either hard or impossible to get working, so it's definitely not for new machines 08:02:12 needs patches just to run newer Firefox or Doom 3 or whatever ... 08:02:16 (98 was out in the year I got a computer, so it and 95 must have been too expensive :-P) 08:02:25 3.11 with win32s is the one that's a bit hard to find support for nowadays. 08:02:37 nothing runs on Win32s, I looked (a year or so ago) ;-) 08:02:44 Rugxulo: limited in max ram? isn't it just to like 2GiB 08:02:48 due to 32-bit without PAE 08:02:55 I wouldn't call that a huge limitation because, you know, it's 95 08:02:57 1 GB, I think 08:03:06 I'm running a smoooooooooooooooooooth workstation here with 64MiB of virtual ram 08:03:14 Don't think it's swapped once :P 08:03:15 one guy uses the other gig of his RAM for a big RAM drive ;-) 08:03:31 Put the swap file on that RAM drive. 08:03:36 Bazam, extra, slightly slower RAM! 08:03:50 something like that, I forget the details 08:04:10 and actually I'm not sure if any (most?) MS OSes even support PAE besides the server versions (maybe) 08:04:24 Anyway, you can actually use disks as big as you want with 95; iirc 64GB was claimed as the limit but apparently 160GB and the like work just fine 08:04:37 137 GB without some fix, I think 08:04:45 How limiting. 08:04:54 even Win98 had a bug where it would crash if you left it running for like 48 days 08:05:03 (obviously no one ever did, heh) 08:05:04 I think 95 has that too. 08:05:08 47.7 or something 08:05:16 Wonder if suspend/resume counts, or hibernate/resume 08:05:27 If so then it could be semi-relevant on a laptop. 08:05:27 besides servers, I doubt if anybody would want to 08:05:34 Then again Windows crashes more frequently than that anyway. 08:05:44 not sure if Win9x supports ACPI 08:05:47 only APM, probably 08:05:56 49.7 days. 08:05:56 As a plus, though, 95 boots to desktop in, oh, 15 seconds? 08:06:01 Maybe 20 seconds. 08:06:01 Or 2^32 milliseconds, if you prefer. 08:06:11 2^32/1000/60/60/24 08:06:11 49.71026962962962962962 08:06:19 yes, it's very fast 08:06:23 Although if it wants to ScanDisk because you crashed, which is when boot time matters most, it takes about a minute or so. 08:06:31 Which is irritating, as it refuses to let you skip it. 08:06:31 XP was allegedly designed to boot to GUI in 30 secs. (but that doesn't count responsiveness) 08:06:41 Vista is a lot more responsive quicker 08:06:53 (allegedly, hard to compare when my XP machine is single core and this one is dual) 08:06:55 The GUI of 95 is very well polished 08:07:12 I'd say it's more focused than Mac OS, apart from the settings dialogs, which are a bit sprawling. 08:07:14 ehird, that's the price you pay for FAT vs. NTFS 08:07:16 (Classic Mac OS) 08:07:56 never used classic Mac OS 08:08:10 brb, uninstaller wants me to reboot :P 08:08:19 -!- ehird95 has quit. 08:10:00 -!- ehird95 has joined. 08:10:04 That win95 pinball works on win32s, they say. And I do remember having some programs that required win32s. 08:10:25 Argh, I think I'm going to have to write a little program that runs in the background and, if you click in the bottom-left corner, opens the start menu. 08:10:40 See, there's a whole list of win32s-compatible programs: http://www.i24.com/en/win32s/tips/w32slist.htm 08:10:44 2000 and XP do it, even though the button seems to stop before then; it's so annoying to see a corner being used without Fitt's Law. 08:10:47 Stupid, stupid, stupid. 08:11:12 It must be easy to get all mouse clicks in a certain position, right? No permissions or anything to deal with. 08:11:35 fizzie, I mean it's hard to find freeware Win32s apps anymore 08:11:52 OpenWatcom still supports all that stuff, though (ironically) 08:12:40 One option for Windows 95's sharp GUI + less horrifically broken internals is Windows NT 4.0, which is... just that. 08:12:40 seen that list, not huge, most of that is hard to find, barely works, or ain't free 08:12:57 NT kernel running the Windows 95 shell. 08:13:00 Win NT 4.0 needs higher requirements and only goes up to DX3 08:13:12 and no LFNs for DOS apps (without TSR / DLL combo) 08:13:22 That DX3 thing is an issue, but higher system requirements is kinda irrelevant; they're all rock-bottom. 08:13:33 Also, how many DOS apps actually use LFNs? 08:13:37 Infinite width buttons! 08:13:42 irrelevant now but not then 08:13:46 how many? all DJGPPv2 apps! 08:13:50 Yes, but I'm talking now. :P 08:14:00 well obviously now 08:14:05 Also, how many are there of those? 3? 08:14:07 :P 08:14:14 several hundred 08:14:24 Mostly unix stuff, though, yah? 08:14:26 even a lot of FreeDOS' 16-bit stuff supports LFNs 08:14:28 no 08:14:43 DJGPP was pretty popular among hobbyist-freeware-developery people. 08:14:48 What with being, you know, free. 08:14:56 free and good (POSIX, GCC, etc.) 08:14:56 My first C compiler, I think. 08:15:15 current DJGPP + GCC beats OpenWatcom hands down 08:15:15 Yay, some bullshit I can't delete. 08:15:30 Into the regedit! 08:15:45 Of course all the "real" coders had a copy of Watcom with a bit shady background. 08:16:07 Speaking of shady backgrounds, I wonder if I can get Microsoft to sue me for pirating this 95. 08:16:15 GCC wasn't as good until the ECGS merger (1999), then it really took off 08:16:17 Using dos4gw instead of cwsdpmi is the true mark of a professional. 08:16:23 Like, throw rocks in Bill's window with "I PIRATED 95" etched into them. 08:16:39 dos4gw is desperately buggy 08:16:45 and big and bloated, but it mostly works 08:17:08 ehird: MURDER doesn't have a STATUTE of LIMITATIONS; I'm sure they'd sue you. 08:17:10 Doom used Watcom/DOS4GW but Quake used DJGPPv2 08:17:10 * Sgeo__ has a legal copy of Win98 >.> 08:17:22 Win98! It's like 95 but with IE craptergration! 08:17:31 ehird, even if they did, I could just send you like my 18-floppy copy (heh) and they'd probably shut up 08:17:33 98SE! It's like 98 except it's totally new! 08:17:50 * Rugxulo seriously prefers FreeDOS over Win9x 08:18:01 Rugxulo: I'm actually considering reinstalling from the floppy copy (don't copy that floppy); it doesn't force you to install IE, you see. 08:18:04 Does the 95 disk have the Microsoft Comic Chat or wahtever it's called? 08:18:13 Sgeo__: not sure. I can look if you want. 08:18:34 dare I ask, but what host OS are you running Win95 on? 08:18:36 Given that the licenses don't really expire, I think I have a "legal" copy of win95 (and possibly some out of {3.11, 3.1, 3.0, 1.02} too, I don't quite remember where those came from) too. 08:18:36 and what VM? 08:18:38 * Sgeo__ is curious, sure 08:18:42 Rugxulo: VirtualBox. 08:18:53 VirtualBox is good (although not as much with 16-bit code) 08:18:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what Windows 1.02 was like 08:18:58 crap :-) 08:19:03 Host OS is Ubuntu 9.10 alpha6. 08:19:07 * Rugxulo never used it but has seen the pics, ugh 08:19:10 Running on a late-2006 iMac. 08:19:14 9.10 beta was released recently 08:19:17 Hey, EGA graphics and everything. 08:19:22 iMac? surprising 08:19:24 Rugxulo: That'll just come in the updates. 08:19:40 And Win1 did support windowing! Though not overlapping windows, obviously, just split-screening. 08:19:42 VirtualBox fullscreen doesn't change the host resolution in Windows, boo 08:19:47 I've had this iMac since 2006 and OS X only started to annoy me recently. 08:19:59 95 actually still has Program Manager! 08:20:07 fizzie, I know ... not exactly useful IMHO 08:20:11 It sucks. 08:20:28 Rugxulo: Well, you could also minimize programs, so it makes some sense. Maybe. A bit. 08:21:02 ...I just tried progman in XP.. 08:21:17 "WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?" -- \Sampler\Videos\200bttrf 08:21:23 "Start" 08:21:25 *click* 08:21:30 WHOA 3D SPIN 08:21:32 It's so 1995. 08:21:34 So far, it didn't complain about it not existing, but nothing's starting 08:22:05 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Windows1.0.png is a very representable screenshot of Windows 1; that's what it looked like. 08:22:14 A Weezer video on the 95 CD? Microsoft tricked me into downloading a Weezer video. 08:22:20 Damn you, Microsoft! 08:22:38 Weezer? 08:22:43 The green bar at the bottom edge gets icons for minimized programs. 08:22:44 It's some band. 08:22:45 I'm just being silly. 08:23:02 Sgeo__: can't find comic chat. 08:23:14 anything with chat? I don't remember the exact name 08:23:21 Anyway, I seem to remember that 1.0 was just monochrome, and the 1.02 update got us EGA colors, but I guess it's also possible we just used 1.0 with the monochrome Hercules card and the 1.02 was on another computer with EGA graphics. 08:23:21 Just a telephone-calling application. 08:23:24 Yeah, Comic Chat 08:23:38 winfile! 08:23:40 Fuck yeah! 08:23:44 Managing files 'n shit! 08:23:52 "Comic Chat was released with the full downloads of Internet Explorer 3, 4, and 5, as well as in the Windows 98 and Windows 2000 distributions." 08:24:05 I just installed the Typical 3.02; thank god not the Full. 08:24:19 What, don't you want all the bells and whistles? 08:24:51 Did it come with NetMeeting? 08:25:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:25:30 * Sgeo__ remembers playing with NetMeeting 08:25:37 -!- ehird95 has joined. 08:25:47 Gah, I really need to remember that opening DOS apps breaks this thing. 08:26:01 Didn't they rename Comic Chat to "Microsoft Chat"? 08:26:23 breaks what? 08:26:30 Rugxulo: Windows. 08:26:42 how does it "break"? 08:26:43 It makes the display go all funny and I have to hard-reset it. 08:26:51 what did you try to run? 08:26:51 "Microsoft Comic Chat installed a custom font, Microsoft Comic Sans, that users could use in other applications and documents." 08:27:01 KILL COMIC CHAt 08:27:01 Rugxulo: it happens with any DOS thingy. 08:27:04 I remember the wfw3.11 "WinPopup" messaging. It's like IM, except not quite. 08:27:07 even text apps? 08:27:15 Yes. 08:27:18 That's all I have. 08:27:18 must be a bad setting in your .PIF 08:27:24 Which pif? 08:27:32 not sure, dosprmpt.pif perhaps 08:27:45 Haha, "There is also a port to linux with an extended feature called LinPopUp, which allows adding Linux computers to the set. Linpopup is an X Window graphical port of Winpopup, and a package for Debian linux. It runs over Samba. Linpopup does not have to run all the time, can run minimized, and its messages are encrypted with a strong cypher." That's among the most useless things I can imagine. 08:27:54 Rugxulo: and how would I fix it? :P 08:28:04 pifedit 08:28:12 Link. 08:28:18 it's there already 08:28:24 No it's not, I just tried. :P 08:28:29 should be 08:28:32 On 95? 08:28:35 g2g eat 08:28:36 yes 08:28:53 Start->Run "pifedit C:\windows\dosprmpt.pif". 08:28:53 Yes? 08:28:57 should work, IIRC 08:28:58 Without the quotes. 08:29:15 cannot find the file pifedit or one of its components. 08:29:46 might be a VirtualBox bug 08:29:50 Uh, no. 08:29:53 It just can't find the file. 08:29:55 That's the error it gives. :P 08:29:59 not that, the screen mess-up thingy 08:30:03 ah 08:30:07 it worked earlier, though 08:30:10 it just stopped woorking. 08:30:11 "To correct this problem, you must modify either dosprmpt.pif, command.pif or 4dos.pif, whichever is present in your Windows directory. 08:30:11 In Windows 3.1 and NT you must use pifedit.exe to modify them. In Windows 95 you can press ALT+ENTER on the PIF files or on command.com/4dos.com directly." 08:30:12 *working 08:30:15 well 08:30:23 I was using the VGA driver then 08:30:24 I think 08:30:28 so the VESA driver broke something 08:30:40 fizzie: Well I can't use anything that runs in a dos prompt. 08:30:41 Though that was just for removing the startup path, maybe not for twiddling the actual pif file contents. 08:30:43 Oh, I see 08:31:13 Alt+enter = properties. 08:31:18 Yes, I remember that much. 08:31:30 font is set to 6x12 08:31:33 Was there a special properties dialog for pif files? There might even have been. 08:31:39 memory is auto/not protected; auto; auto; uses hma; auto 08:31:43 not configured for expanded memory 08:31:54 screen is window; default; display toolbar; restore settings on startup; 08:31:56 fast rom emulation; 08:31:58 dynamic memory allocation 08:32:18 misc is allow screensaver; no quickedit or exclusive mode; don't always suspend; warn if still active; medium idle sensitivity; fast pasting; all windows shortcut keys 08:32:33 program is MS-DOS Prompt; C:\WINDOWS\command.com; no shortcut key; run in normal window; close on exit 08:32:36 turn off "window" and use full-screen if possible 08:32:43 Ah, the whole EMS/XMS mess was also hilarious. 08:32:47 I'll try, but that's kind of annoying. 08:32:49 Must lunch. 08:33:19 Rugxulo: normal window/maximized/mninimized 08:33:20 no full screen 08:33:24 *minimized 08:33:27 oh 08:33:28 in screen 08:33:31 * ehird95 ticks full-screen 08:33:39 EMS predates XMS 08:33:46 reddit.com 08:35:20 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 08:35:20 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:35:24 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95. 08:35:38 I like the part where it crashed 08:35:54 most didn't ... hence why NT is now prevalent ;-) 08:36:15 haha, that reddit.com was meant to go in opera 08:36:21 I saw the location bar, split out 08:36:22 like 08:36:22 * Rugxulo was wondering 08:36:27 each pixel had hundreds of pixels around it on my screen 08:36:32 and had the wrong colour 08:36:36 so it was sort of like a weird zooming-in 08:36:41 but i couldn't get it to change 08:36:47 still, it shows that only the graphics are effing up 08:36:58 VirtualBox isn't very stable in some ways 08:37:06 and its DOS compatibility is weaker than other VMs 08:37:24 please do suggest something better that runs on linux :) 08:37:47 dunno, haven't really tried too much on Linux 08:37:53 maybe Bochs, but it'll probably be loads slower 08:38:02 but it's been improved a lot lately 08:38:07 bochs is possibly the slowest thing that claims to emulate an x86 08:38:14 nobody really knows, though; it's never performed any instructions 08:38:24 (also, its configuration format is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain) 08:38:37 yes, I also dislike the config crapola 08:38:51 * ehird95 installs flash player 7 08:38:59 what's windows 95 without rick rolling. 08:39:03 *rickrolling 08:39:20 so you're just running Win95 for laughs? 08:39:36 yeah. i am kinda tempted to roll on over to ebay and purchase like an X20 or something 08:39:44 really old tiny thinkpad and put win95 on it :P 08:39:56 hooray, flash 7 works 08:40:03 nah, if you want something like that, get a netbook and run DOSEMU or WINE 08:40:07 (9 didn't; I don't remember if I tried 8) 08:40:13 Rugxulo: netbooks are shoddy pieces of crap :( 08:40:22 and they lack retro hardware... in its place bad hardware 08:40:22 well, so is a used laptop :-P 08:40:27 hardly! 08:40:32 thinkpads are beautiful sculptures of hardware. 08:40:39 if the used laptop actually works, then yes, good 08:40:49 but new OSes and old hardware aren't friends (and vice versa) 08:40:54 95 is a new OS?! 08:40:57 no 08:41:10 so then what's the conflict with putting 95 on an old thinkpad, that sounds logical to me :P 08:41:26 it's fine if you want to struggle with that, but old hardware often dies 08:41:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 08:41:50 eh 08:41:51 * Rugxulo bought a Lynx II (made in 1991) in 2004 or so, it only lasted a year, maybe two 08:42:03 there are original model thinkpads still working; many of them 08:42:09 thinkpads are ridiculously sturdy 08:42:14 I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just not airtight :-/ 08:42:18 yeah, i know 08:42:25 i'm just saying that a lot of people get second-hand thinkpads 08:42:27 I love retro (more than modern, too), but it's not flawless 08:42:34 and as a rule they don't really break 08:42:38 without active breakingness 08:43:02 besides 08:43:02 http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20 08:43:05 how dinky is that?! :P 08:43:15 (beefy specs for a 95 machine, too...) 08:44:25 DOS still doesn't have good (or any, really) drivers for sound, esp. non-SB 08:44:48 eh 08:44:52 i'm sure the x20 can talk soundblaster 08:44:53 prolly 08:44:57 but the processor looks okay, RAM could be better (or worse even) 08:45:01 Rugxulo: you forgot Gravis :-) 08:45:07 AC97 ain't the best 08:45:15 97 is kinda impossible on win95 08:45:18 for self-evident reasons 08:45:29 hmm 08:45:33 problems loading this youtube page 08:45:51 I think YouTube upgraded to Flash 9 not too long ago (to many peoples' chagrin) 08:46:12 I might be wrong on the version number, but they still aren't "good enough" to FOSS codecs, etc. 08:46:26 (although Google did buy some codec developer recently, maybe they'll change) 08:46:47 lots of stuff uses Flash, perhaps too much (considering its transitory nature) 08:47:58 even my Dad's Mac OS X (10.3.9) laptop's Flash was "too old" to watch some stuff 08:48:21 youtube recommended me to upgrade to flash 10 when i had 9 or 8, i forget which 08:48:21 who knows 08:48:27 but didn't force it 08:48:30 (although the flash itself didn't work) 08:48:44 Flash is a pain to many people 08:52:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:53:56 anyways, VMware is reported to work well 08:54:02 hi 08:54:04 but I've never bothered trying it 08:54:11 hey 08:54:29 boo #nethack, yay ##crawl ;-) 08:54:42 ? 08:55:09 (he's in #nethack) 08:55:21 Rugxulo: and why not? 08:55:22 * Sgeo__ is a NetHack person, kind of 08:55:25 I do play Crawl a bit too, though 08:55:37 * Rugxulo finds NetHack too hard, too confusing 08:55:49 very steep learning curve 08:56:01 Crawl's decent as a wargame, but it plays rather differently from NetHack 08:56:09 yes 08:56:11 I'd say the two are more or less independent in the strategies needed 08:56:19 yes 08:56:37 Crawl feels more arcade-like but really needs fairly good strategy 08:56:46 and lots of experience ;-) 08:57:27 no selling stuff, no need to run to altar to id stuff 08:57:44 ais523: hi, i'm using windows 95. 08:57:44 Um... if Windows 95 Plus! introduced IE 1.0, how does ehird95 have 3.0? 08:58:01 Sgeo__: 95 plus! introduced ie 1.0? WTF 08:58:03 you're on crack 08:58:07 ehird95: great 08:58:09 ie dates back to win3 days :P 08:58:13 I actually liked Win95 at the time 08:58:22 ais523: it's actually pretty good! 08:58:23 "This was the first version of Plus! and included Space Cadet Pinball, the Internet Jumpstart Kit (which was the introduction of Internet Explorer 1.0)" 08:58:25 in fact, when XP came out I preferred it to XP 08:58:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Plus!#Microsoft_Plus.21_for_Windows_95 08:58:41 Maybe Wiki's wrong? 08:58:47 still do except it isn't compatible with anything 08:58:58 ais523: my favourite part is the GUI; Explorer and its ilk 08:59:02 ais523: it's sort of... crisp 08:59:07 like every pixel was accounted for 08:59:25 ais523: don't say nothing supports it! 08:59:30 Opera 10 runs on it almost entirely perfectly 08:59:31 yes, even nowadays I style XP to look like that 08:59:37 you can't 08:59:43 win 95's explorer had different menus for instance 08:59:47 the only big deal with Win95 was the 32-bit API, the DOS integration, and Plug 'n Play 08:59:51 and i don't think you can make xp open one window for every app 09:00:04 ais523: anyway, I'm talking to you with the latest version of mIRC, while browsing the regular web on regular settings using Opera 10 09:00:09 and it's crusing 09:00:11 heh 09:00:17 ehird95: don't like Opera's IRC? 09:00:20 (Opera 10 is the latest Opera) 09:00:24 Rugxulo: I used it, but "eh" 09:00:28 Nicer to have it as a separate program. 09:00:31 I wonder if that's the reason I still compile new opera apps against Windows 3.1? 09:00:33 *seperate 09:00:39 fun trivia: mIRC was originally freeware!! 09:00:41 ais523: new opera apps? 09:00:42 after all, in theory later versions of windows can still emulate it 09:00:44 Rugxulo: Still is :P 09:00:46 umm... new windows apps 09:00:51 nobody actually registers it, do they? 09:00:52 if and when I write one, which is rare 09:00:58 *separate 09:01:02 ais523: anyway, opera 10 really does work perfectly with only a few glitches 09:01:05 the exception's if they're 32-bit, in which case I compile against Windows 95 09:01:06 well, I guess not perfectly then 09:01:13 still 09:01:13 ehird95: not with Opera, Chatzilla, ERC, etc. ;-) 09:01:17 it fails to report file sizes and image sizes 09:01:18 but Windows XP broke a lot of the compatibility stuff 09:01:19 that's the only thing I've found 09:01:32 I suppose that if I use Windows 1 features that were deprecated in 3.1, I shouldn't really expect them to work in XP 09:01:32 and I only have 64MiB of RAM in this VM! 09:01:36 (although they work fine in 95!) 09:01:45 16-bit is dead in AMD64 09:02:07 so once Windows requires (or "recommends") > 3 GB of RAM for actual use, 32-bit is DOA 09:02:18 ais523: I had to skip past a few spam ad surveys on a shady windows-drivers site to get them to give me an old version of the Microsoft IntelliPoint drivers; I don't have a Microsoft mouse, but this enables the scroll-wheel... 09:02:28 heh 09:02:33 (I needed an older version so it didn't depend on a newer IE and also to have less crap on my system) 09:02:36 I wonder what driver EULAs are like? 09:02:41 I think I may still have one of those on CD 09:02:44 (I could install the newer IE, but *eh*) 09:02:58 (At some point I might reinstall by pirating the floppies instead; that way, IE won't be mandatory.) 09:03:05 Docking Station should work on Win95 09:03:14 Sgeo__: Link me up and I'll try. 09:03:17 I once created a web page which, if opened in IE 4, would cause Windows 95 or 98 to crash hard 09:03:19 Graphics will probably be too slow to be usable, though. 09:03:22 DamnSmallLinux can run in 32 MB of RAM 09:03:26 didn't actually put it on the web, though 09:03:30 and later versions of IE fixed the bug 09:03:32 ais523: ooh, what's that file:// url or whatever? 09:03:40 con/con right? 09:03:41 Rugxulo: 95 can run with 4MiB and decently with like 16 09:03:47 yep, drive:\con\con 09:03:52 I know, but it ain't free :-( 09:03:54 C:\con\con 09:03:54 as in, c:\con\con 09:04:00 Rugxulo: sure is 09:04:01 I used a different method, though 09:04:05 (and 4 MB might be a bit optimistic ... swapping would be slooooooowwwwwwww) 09:04:06 which was hilarious on locked-down computers 09:04:07 i got it for free 09:04:10 admittedly I broke the law 09:04:11 as it ended up killing Explorer 09:04:18 well guys, I'm about to try concon 09:04:21 NICE KNOWING YOU 09:04:24 meaning: you couldn't do anything, you couldn't log out, etc 09:04:39 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 09:04:41 ehird95 just stopped responding to pings 09:05:02 why he even wanted to test that ("con/con") is beyond me 09:05:09 What caused that? 09:05:16 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:05:21 what caused what? 09:05:28 trying to refer to c:\con\con 09:05:30 con\con to have the effect that it did 09:05:34 there's a weird bug in Windows' legacy support 09:05:39 basically, DOS has a few special filenames 09:05:42 "con" is a reserved word in DOS/Win9x 09:05:47 -!- ehird95 has joined. 09:05:49 which, when used with any extensoin, send the file to a device 09:05:50 wb 09:05:50 con, aux, prn 09:06:00 (prn == lpt1, I think) 09:06:03 prn? Windows recognizes.. 09:06:06 I like how I'm using an overclocker's tool to keep my system fans running low and use less power 09:06:08 (sorry) 09:06:11 e.g. if you write to prn.exe, instead it'll go to the printer 09:06:16 ehird95: you're underclocking? 09:06:17 copy con myfile.txt 09:06:18 blah blah blah 09:06:21 ^Z (saves) 09:06:34 poor man's editor ;-) 09:07:08 ehird, ever used QBasic? 09:07:15 that exists in UNIX too, cat > myfile.txt 09:07:19 with ^D to save 09:07:22 and yes, he has 09:07:27 ehird and I were discussing QBasic a while ago 09:07:29 ais523: Nope; Windows 95 doesn't run hlt on idle cycles by default, so it always uses the CPU at near-100%. This makes the cooling system work more and uses more power. I'm using a tool called Rain, designed to cool down the system by hogging all the idle cycles with hlt and thus allow more overclocking, to make my system fans less noisy and use less power. 09:07:35 I even have a legit copy of it on this computer 09:07:56 ehird95: what interrupts the system out of the hlts? 09:07:58 This particular Rain installation is "Optimized for Intel Pentium Pro"; I had a wide range of selection... among ancient processors. 09:08:07 ais523: I think it just does a busyloop 09:08:18 ehird95, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 is the link, but the sysreqs say that it needs IE 4 for networking capabilities 09:08:28 "hlt" is the same as "jmp $" but is interrupted by ... an interrupt! ;-) 09:08:37 Sgeo__: Probably for Winsock 2 or something 09:08:39 which I have 09:08:52 w i n s i t e . c o m 09:08:52 1995 - 2009 09:08:52 CICA Windows FTP archives 09:08:52 1991 - 1994 09:08:57 Well, won't be downloading it from there any time soon. 09:09:19 o.O 09:09:30 what, winsock? 09:09:35 MS' FTP site has tons of old stuff 09:09:38 Rugxulo, Creatures Docking Station 09:09:43 See Sgeo's link. 09:09:45 winsite.com has apparently died. 09:09:53 Wasn't that thing huge? 09:10:08 Well, not huge enough for a WP article. 09:10:23 WP? 09:10:27 Wikipedia. 09:10:31 ah 09:10:32 Sgeo__: care to link me a working link? 09:11:07 Looking for one 09:11:10 Let me ask in Sine 09:11:21 what, all this for Docking Station? 09:11:25 (whatever that is) 09:11:37 All this? 09:11:40 I clicked a few links. 09:11:43 I asked for a working link. 09:11:52 You greatly overestimate how much work I have, so far, put into this endeavour. 09:12:06 what endeavour? what is the goal? 09:12:23 See if Docking Station works. 09:12:27 ais523: your explanation got cut off 09:12:34 which one? 09:12:38 ais523: you stopped talking before you explained why it fails if you refer to con or whatever as a directory :-P 09:12:43 due to topic derailing 09:12:46 oh, that's just a bug 09:12:49 Found a link, hold on 09:13:01 I don't think the case of someone using con as a directory was implemented at all 09:13:03 It's from a Creatures fansite though 09:13:03 http://creatures.treesprite.com/dockingstation_195.exe 09:13:05 "con" is a reserved word 09:13:06 so the fact you get UB there isn't surprising 09:13:14 Rugxulo: we've established that. 09:13:15 Rugxulo: yes, I've been explaining what it was reserved for 09:13:24 con == console 09:13:25 ais523: I know the story, I just meant for Sgeo__ 09:13:31 I know, Rugxulo. 09:13:36 k 09:13:41 The other links on http://creatures.treesprite.com/Upgrades5.html#A don't work 09:13:52 23 minutes to download! 09:14:01 it's 30 MB, that's why I was skeptical 09:14:06 Got anything with a link faster than a T...0? :-P 09:14:12 Rugxulo: 30MB downloads in like a minute on my connection 09:14:12 (esp. since on company sells a service that slims Win98 down to like 8 MB install) 09:14:19 assuming a non-retarded server, which we don't have in this new link 09:14:24 Rugxulo: it's a game 09:14:28 * Rugxulo didn't know if you had fast internet or not 09:14:30 graphical content, sounds... are big 09:14:40 "The Messenger Service is no longer supported from Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008." Wahh, I want my pop-up spam. :/ 09:14:42 they should've used better compression 09:14:55 8Mb/s isn't exactly "fast", what with Scandinavia and bordering areas having 50Mb/s as commonplace stuff 09:15:07 F U, Fileplanet, for wanting me to register 09:15:10 anything is fast compared to dialup 09:15:13 Rugxulo: yes, let's just wave the magical wand and get every file under 1MB 09:15:27 Sgeo__: Fileplanet is shit, you have to wait in a queue to download your file 09:15:28 no, but typically people are lazy and use horrible compression 09:15:28 It takes hours 09:15:43 9.4%; I guess this download might be fast enough. 09:15:57 " MB (K\ bytes)" --Opera, attempting to tell me how fast it's downloading 09:16:08 Not *entirely* perfect on 95... 09:16:17 (minimal Unicode, if any ...) 09:16:24 http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,17080-order,1-page,1-c,alldownloads/description.html 09:16:54 Also, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C 09:17:05 sounds like a glorified Tamagotchi 09:17:18 NanoPet or whatever 09:19:40 MB seems a pretty fast speed 09:20:33 Rugxulo: the Creatures series is nothing like either of those 09:20:52 what's your problem? you've been interestingly critical of it since the first link... 09:21:25 ais523: the block represents the number bigger than infinity. 09:22:15 ehird95: oh, to me it's a lightning bolt 09:22:22 presumably you can't see it though 09:22:45 ehird, not intentionally ... just sounds like a lot of trouble for little gain 09:22:57 strangely, it stops being a lightning bolt if I copy-and-paste it elsewhere, and turns into a control-L 09:23:13 heh, as fast as lightning 09:23:27 Rugxulo: it's clicking a few links, plus the game is amusing for a few minutes 09:23:34 it's no more pointless than any "let's see if this works" 09:24:09 * ehird95 wonders what people used for win 95 development... gotta fix that fitt's law violation... 09:24:14 It's control-L for controlled Lightning. 09:24:23 Here it's a [0012] except in a box. 09:24:27 Watcom and MSVC, presumably 09:24:33 it looked like that when I copied-and-pasted it elsewhere 09:24:38 and DJGPP, too 09:24:45 so I think it's a lightning bolt under Qt, but a box containing [0012] under GTK 09:24:50 yay, DJGPP! 09:25:04 DJGPP existed well before Cygwin (and subsequently MinGW) 09:25:08 Also that Borland thing. 09:25:13 I see [0000] 09:25:16 Not [0012] 09:25:18 oh yeah, forgot Borland 09:25:33 BC++ 55 is free 09:25:42 Digital Mars is too 09:25:43 I still have a copy of Borland C++ 4 09:25:51 which doesn't really work properly on Windows XP 09:25:56 but then it didn't really work properly on Windows 95 09:26:02 I have 4.5 too somewhere. 09:26:04 why not? 09:26:11 Stupid reason to learn Python: I didn't realize that there were free C/C++ compilers 09:26:12 DJGPP for pure-Win32 development sounds misguided. 09:26:13 * Rugxulo is curious 09:26:21 That's also why I first started to learn Java 09:26:31 ehird, no I meant for DOS/DPMI apps (although with third-party RSXNT/DJ you could do Win32) 09:26:32 The full 4.5 version came with some pc magazine. 09:26:53 Right; I'm looking to do Win32. It's gotta be simple to catch all mouseclicks in one pixel of the screen. 09:26:56 Sgeo, Python ain't so bad, it's fans LOVE it 09:27:10 OpenWatcom supports Win32 also (as host or target) 09:27:16 Rugxulo, I like Python, but the reason I became interested in it in the first place... 09:27:17 Maybe I'll just have to make an always-on-top, above-taskbar borderless window whose only pixel is transparent, then catch clicks on that. 09:27:21 That'd work, I think. 09:27:22 Visual Studio 6 still works on 95, I think; at least on 98 it does. 09:27:34 oh, and you can actually do Win32 stuff in assembly too (see FASMW) 09:27:44 Then it's just a matter of calling whatever function brings up the start menu. 09:27:59 but why did Borland 4 have issues? 09:28:07 what did it do exactly? 09:28:21 ehird95: A true Windows developer would do that by synthesizing a mouse click event that clicks around the start button. 09:29:01 Rugxulo: most commonly, it would hang in the middle of compilation for no good reason 09:29:01 and then you'd have to change bits of things around at random until it didn't 09:29:01 also, linking tended to fail on 32-bit programs 09:29:11 Oh, and of course there's always LCC-win32. That was reasonably popular too. 09:29:13 was it a DOS or Windows program? 09:29:17 fizzie: Yes, well, that'll fail if you resize the task bar to be invisible with hacks. :P 09:29:17 fizzie: I actually did that 09:29:19 LCC-win32 I've used 09:29:21 I think 09:29:22 I mean, simulate mouse clicks and keypresses 09:29:25 although I couldn't code C 09:29:25 in order to do things 09:29:30 it was the easiest way, which is saying something 09:29:31 Is it any good? 09:29:50 ehird95: lcc-win32 is one of the most common talking points over on comp.lang.c 09:29:52 I think I'll call this sanity-restoring program Fitt. I mean, it's like Dr. Watson. 09:30:03 ais523: that's only because the developer is prolific 09:30:08 Fitt sits there, waiting for your click, intercepts it, and makes good things happen! 09:30:08 basically, it's relatively good, but has some things which are nonstandard for no good reason at all 09:30:16 and has various misfeatues 09:30:18 Rugxulo: well, yes 09:30:28 it gives you a good idea of what's going on, though 09:30:44 lcc-win32 was quite easy to install, iirc 09:30:45 the impression I got was that the development of lcc-win32 was driven by the author's commercial customers 09:30:47 * Rugxulo suggests OpenWatcom, no need of stinkin' MSVCRT.DLL that most compilers (ahem, MinGW) require 09:30:53 just a click-click-click affair, and I believe it has an editor built-in 09:30:58 many of who ask for stupid things, and actually get them because they're paying 09:31:00 Rugxulo: is OpenWatcom free or will I have to pirate it? 09:31:05 free 09:31:07 link 09:31:08 open source 09:31:11 www.openwatcom.org 09:31:27 are the generated executables lean 'n mean or bloated in any way? 09:31:29 ehird95: Wikipedia says it's Fitts' law, not Fitt's law 09:31:33 I recall something about watcom+bloated being said earlier 09:31:33 it's like 75 MB, but that's with all hosts and targets 09:31:33 because the person was called Fitts 09:31:36 ais523: oops 09:31:37 not bloated, no 09:31:40 ais523: I'll call it Fitts, then 09:31:50 ais523: I saw a very recent example of registering a OCX control by sending a mouse click to start button (it even picked up the absolute screen size to position it "correctly" -- of course fails if the user moves the task bar), then "r" and "regsvr32 ..." and "return" keypress events. 09:31:51 but not as small as MinGW only because it (thankfully) rejects the buggy MSVCRT.DLL 09:32:03 I just like the idea of having Fitts himself sit inside my computer, intercepting clicks to make them do the Right Thing. 09:32:03 still smaller than DJGPP, though (leaner library) 09:32:08 no POSIX, though 09:32:22 fizzie: wait, it actually went and simulated the keypresses for Start | Run...? 09:32:35 that's ridiculous on about 3 levels 09:32:49 Isn't it, though+ 09:32:51 Rugxulo: I don't think I even have msvcrt.dll 09:32:53 * Rugxulo saw a nice sample Win32 GUI app in < 1k 09:32:56 Nope. 09:32:57 I know :-) 09:32:59 (the amusing thing, of course, is that the WinExec API call, which is roughly equivalent to system() in Unix, has been deprecated) 09:33:12 SpawnProcess, no? 09:33:34 they probably added a replacement 09:33:35 fizzie, maybe it's just an example? 09:33:36 MS also deprecated tmpnam etc. I think 09:33:39 I haven't heard of that one, it must be newer than my time 09:33:44 http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif lcc-win32 looks happily painless; type 'n click compile 'n done. 09:33:48 Rugxulo: but then, they deprecated snprintf 09:33:50 Sgeo__: It was in the internets, I don't remember the story aroudn it. 09:34:02 lots of people deprecate lots of stuff for no good reason 09:34:04 even more amusingly, their replacement has an extra argument for the size of the buffer 09:34:20 I'm not sure if anyone's ever used it with buffer size != maximum characters to print + 1 09:34:21 except as a test 09:34:46 OpenWatcom has an IDE too 09:34:48 "We would also like to thank Perforce Software for providing us with a license to use their excellent source code management system" 09:34:54 yup 09:35:07 do I want to use software made by people who think that (a) using Perforce is a good idea and (b) getting a license for Perforce for open source software is a good idea? 09:35:08 Linus himself used to use it before he wrote Git 09:35:09 gah, spam fone calls 09:35:11 wrong 09:35:13 he used BitKeeper 09:35:20 which is about 1,000,000,000,000x better 09:35:22 it's Perl that used to use perforce 09:35:24 but they changed to git 09:35:31 I seem to remember that there was some controversy (usenet- or otherwise) w.r.t. Jacob Navia, lcc-win32's developer. 09:35:37 first of all, use whatever you like, but ... Watcom existed since a long time (late 80s) 09:35:38 it's a usenet controversy 09:35:40 still a bad idea to use bitkeeper for linux, but perforce has the added benefit of being really, terribly awfully bad 09:35:47 actually, early 80s, but the 386 C/C++ is late 80s 09:36:05 Watcom's a classic, yes; but lcc-win32 is potentially simpler. 09:36:22 I don't know of any controversy offhand re: Navia, but I know he's a bit stubborn 09:36:28 simpler? I doubt it 09:36:47 aaand here comes docking station 09:37:01 Yay! 09:37:04 Rugxulo: http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif looks very simple to me, for getting the development done 09:37:08 Sgeo__: it's just the installer :P 09:37:15 Current lcc-win32 says: "Requirements: You need at least Windows 2000, the compiler and command line utiltities will work with older Windows operating systems without any trouble, but the IDE may make use of features not available in older systems and is therefor not supposed to run." 09:37:17 LCC-Win32 is only for non-commercial use, OpenWatcom is for anything (so Perforce is moot, IMHO) 09:37:27 ha! 09:37:27 I don't want to sell this :P 09:37:32 no surprise, those bastards 09:37:33 fizzie: eh, lame shit 09:37:43 Sgeo__: "Error 0 running command .\installblast.exe --temp" 09:37:45 will try to extract manually 09:37:48 lcc-win32 is shareware, sort-of; it's free to use non-commercially, you can get a commercial licence by paying 09:37:49 OpenWatcom runs on OS/2, Windows, Linux (beta), DOS :-) 09:37:59 s/runs/& natively/ 09:38:12 alright then, hook me up with an openwatcom installer link w/ IDE :P 09:38:15 i'm teh laze 09:38:23 ais523: I'm sure it's good, I've just never used it and don't see any need for it 09:38:56 Sgeo__: okay, extracting the installer 09:39:04 ah, snprintf_s no longer exists, that makes sense 09:39:12 but, sprintf_s strikes me as the most ridiculous function I've ever seen 09:39:14 http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/openwatcom/open-watcom-c-win32-1.8.exe 09:39:18 it's basically snprintf but worse 09:39:32 MS is weird 09:39:39 "The INSTALLBLAST.EXE file is linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAudodial." 09:39:46 Sgeo__: guess i'd have to upgrade IE 09:39:54 no, just use OW 09:39:58 ...?! 09:39:59 what 09:40:02 are you talking about 09:40:04 it compiles itself, for heaven's sake 09:40:11 it's bound to be "good enough" 09:40:11 wtf i'm talking about docking station you doofus 09:40:20 ah 09:40:25 :P 09:40:27 also, it has a scary line suggesting that sprintf doesn't check that the format string is valid, whereas sprintf_s does 09:40:29 ehird95: Yes, but you can replace that with Open Watcom. It's "good enough". :p 09:40:29 that's ridiculous 09:40:33 Sgeo__: or i could just fish out the WinInet.dll from IE 4's installer... 09:40:36 ehird95, huh, so the sysreqs lied about what IE4 was needed for? 09:40:48 IE4 is needed for its internet functions. 09:40:52 Presumably. 09:40:56 I don't have IE4. 09:40:57 So what is it needed for in the installer? 09:41:07 To register an account or something, I guess. 09:41:41 hmm... snprintf can be used to tell you the length of the buffer you need 09:41:46 that watcom link is strangely slow 09:41:48 how big is the exe? 09:41:50 whereas, sprintf_s causes your program to crash if it's too small 09:41:59 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:42:08 ehird95: 74M 09:42:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 09:43:51 !seen mtve 09:43:58 bah, didn't think that'd work 09:44:10 ow, the blue background of the openwatcom installer 09:44:11 ow ow ow my EYES 09:44:15 heh 09:45:03 alright, installing into C:\WATCOM 09:45:58 "Setup needs to modify AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS." 09:46:12 quite worrying, considering both were obsolete by windows 95 09:46:14 no, just do it manually 09:46:23 well, my autoexec is empty and i have no config.sys, so it can't hurt 09:46:26 Win95 = MS-DOS 7.0 + Win 4.0 09:46:39 it still boots as DOS 09:46:43 it's just more hidden (barely) 09:46:44 config.sys is useless, though, because everything has windows drivers :P 09:46:50 not at the time 09:46:54 autoexec is useless because, well, not much adds to the PATH I guess 09:46:55 they still supported DOS drivers 09:46:59 Rugxulo: annoyances.org agrees with me 09:47:03 yes, that's true 09:47:06 but rare is the device with only DOS drivers 09:47:16 and such a device is indeed deprecated, so to speak 09:47:17 not that rare, in 1995 at least 09:47:37 we still have drivers in 2009 (UIDE) ;-) 09:48:13 anyways, autoexec.bat is called by the shell (command.com) 09:48:27 P.S. 4DOS is free now, you should grab it 09:48:41 I know what autoexec is 09:48:42 FreeDOS exists 09:48:44 as does DOSBox 09:48:47 ... 09:48:49 obviously :-) 09:48:50 totally irrelevant 09:48:53 why did you mention that 09:48:53 heh 09:48:56 4DOS is a command shell for windows :P 09:48:58 he is a bit stubborn 09:49:02 who is 09:49:03 me? 09:49:10 4DOS works very well under Win9x 09:49:17 I meant 09:49:19 totally irrelevant @ ais523 09:49:20 4NT (or whatever it's called now) is for later versions 09:49:23 I think I had some ndis2-drivers-only network card at some point. 09:49:23 for mentioning freedos and dosbox 09:49:23 yes 09:49:29 I know 09:49:37 the single-most annoying feature of windows 9x is that your mouse movement becomes choppy and keys are dropped if your CPU is being used a lot 09:49:38 he's just trying to help you ;-) 09:49:44 and even rendering a web page does that to 95... 09:49:58 Vista loses keys too, so nothing's perfect 09:50:07 ehird95, that's not true of all Windows OSes? 09:50:18 probably due to preemptive vs. cooperative 09:50:22 You tried to access the address http://www.jpsoft.com/, which is currently unavailable. Please make sure that the Web address (URL) is correctly spelled and punctuated, then try reloading the page. 09:50:34 Sgeo__: works fine in XP, so probably in NT 4.0 up 09:50:40 maybe starting in 2000, dunno 09:50:44 4dos.zzl.org 09:50:48 i mean really choppy 09:50:49 ehird95, actually, it doesn't work fine in XP for me 09:50:52 as in start rendering a page, can't move the mouse 09:50:54 at all 09:50:56 for seconds 09:51:07 might be a VM bug 09:51:13 believe it or not, VMs aren't perfect 09:51:20 The address you have entered has not been activated. 09:51:38 http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/user/4dos/ 09:52:20 * ais523 reads http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html 09:52:25 I disagree with the question 3 bonus 09:52:34 asktog is wonderful 09:52:45 with a right-handed mouse, I find hitting the bottom-right corner of the screen really hard as the mouse keeps getting stuck against my hand 09:52:52 as in, I can't actually move in that direction far enough 09:53:08 ais523: fitts' law sort of assumes you're not putting your mouse on a cliff with your hand bent over backwards 09:53:17 I know that's an exaggeration, but it concerns a mouse held reasonably, on a decent surface 09:53:23 also, I thought the answer "the pixel under the cursor" couldn't be given because you didn't know exactly where the cursor was 09:53:35 ehird95: I rest my wrist on the table when using a mouse 09:53:45 I have to move it in order to be able to move it a long distance down and right 09:53:48 but it's good for other directions 09:54:28 Rugxulo: do I need 4dos800 or 4dos800patches? 09:54:35 just 4dos800.zip 09:54:49 also, this is kind of pointless; I can't use the ms dos window, remember? 09:54:59 oops ;-) 09:55:23 ehird95: what goes wrong when you try? 09:55:40 screen goes insane, hard reset needed (probably a VirtualBox bug) 09:56:03 only happens with vesa driver, not vga, iirc 09:56:13 (the vesa driver is a third-party thingamajic) 09:56:18 *thinigamajig 09:56:54 if anyone knows any vesa drivers for windows that support high resolutions (like 1280x1024), that'd be great :P 09:57:11 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 09:57:32 any VESA should support that, probably just another buggy implementation :-/ 09:57:40 I didn't know 09:57:44 The actual VESA driver is solid 09:57:50 and can support such high resolutions 09:58:03 but it probably triggers a vbox bug. 09:58:06 Maybe you should port the VirtualBox guest additions to the 9x series, now that you have the Watcom there and all. 09:58:13 http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm 09:58:17 like I said, VBox has various bugs (esp. for older 16-bit-ish OSes) 09:58:23 * Sgeo__ needs to go to sleep a few hours ago 09:58:25 fizzie: Good idea. I'll do that right after I stick my head in a blender :P 09:58:32 Rugxulo: no alternative for me as far as I can tell 09:58:38 grr 09:58:40 open watcom adds two menus 09:58:44 one for programs, one for help 09:58:55 you can rearrange / edit those 09:58:59 I wouldn't worry about it though 09:59:00 wow that's a lot of menu items 09:59:11 (actually, you could've just "unzipped" the .EXE as it's just a sfx) 09:59:24 ok, this IDE is *seriously* 16-bit 09:59:29 heh, yes, but it works 09:59:37 right down to using that win 3 font 09:59:41 Good night 09:59:44 nite 09:59:48 -!- Sgeo__ has quit ("Leaving"). 10:00:43 anyone know any vesa drivers for windows? 10:00:58 Bear Windows didn't have one? 10:02:05 ehird95: Did you try the "obsolete" "MANUAL" VirtualBox-specific build of that vbe9x you linked to? 10:02:13 Rugxulo: That's what I'm using... 10:02:37 fizzie: The VirtualBox forums guide to 9x says that the VBox-specific one actually "has issues". 10:02:51 I might, though, if there's no other vesa drivers for 9x. 10:03:35 Scitech Display Doctor might have had some video-drivery things in the latest releases, though I'm not sure whether it overlapped at all with 9x. 10:03:39 isn't there a QEMU for Mac (called "Q" or something)? 10:03:58 maybe it works better (since VirtualBox is just a heavily-modified QEMU with a GUI) 10:04:15 VESA is part of the BIOS, not part of the OS 10:04:25 DOS can use VESA 10:04:41 and I think you mean Univbe 10:05:13 Rugxulo: It was renamed Scitech Display Doctor, and I thought it acquired some display-drivery things later; it used to be just "provide the VESA bios functions for non-vesa-supporting cards" when it was called univbe. 10:05:38 Or that's the feeling I got; I didn't really follow the development of it later. 10:05:44 ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/graph/uvbe51a.zip 10:05:59 I don't know, I think SDD had Univbe in it, not sure 10:06:21 "In version 5.2, it was renamed to Scitech Display Doctor. However, UniVBE remained to be the name used for the actual driver." 10:06:48 "Version 6.5 introduced the ability to use Scitech Display Doctor as wrapper video driver." I think that's what I was thinking about, though I'm not quite sure what a "wrapper video driver" exactly is. 10:07:24 qemu is so slow. 10:07:25 Q is just a gui 10:07:40 dunno, I guess to make Windows use a higher-level API to behind the scenes access BIOS interrupts 10:07:41 "SciTech Display Doctor includes the only universal Windows 95 display driver. SciTech Display Doctor is compatible with over 250different graphics chips. If you have ever struggled with display drivers or experienced problems like slow display speeds or system crashes, SciTech Display Doctor is the solution you need." 10:07:44 I've heard of Scitech Display Doctor in relation to this stuff, I think. 10:07:59 QEMU is indeed slow ... does KQemu not work on Mac OS X? 10:08:14 I'm using Ubuntu. 10:08:22 right right 10:08:23 And I guess it might, but still. I have this mental image of QEMU = dog slow. 10:08:27 but on a iMac (confusing) 10:08:36 it's pretty slow, yes 10:08:43 VBox uses some JIT stuff to make it lots faster 10:08:52 and VT-X helps even more 10:08:53 You can find sdd6.53 in http://download.chip.eu/en/SciTech-Display-Doctor-6.53_35301.html# -- it seems to do the download without registration there if you just click enough. 10:08:56 iMacs are x86 machines, you know. 10:09:00 They just use EFI instead of BIOS. 10:09:08 yes, I know 10:09:25 just not firsthand 10:10:08 "For better graphic [in VirtualBox] in WinDOS you can install scitech display doctor 7." Well, someone suggests that, anyway. 10:10:22 Aight then. 10:10:52 I'ma download it with ma meggabits. 10:10:58 I'm not sure if 6.53 works as well; it was legally available from their FTP at some point, which might not have been the case with 7. 10:11:17 their FTP site seems kaput (according to Wikipedia and my own attempt just now) 10:11:18 I'm sure you could find 7 too from the interwebs, though. 10:11:33 I think 5.x worked better with older cards 10:11:34 http://majorgeeks.com/SciTech_Display_Doctor_d382.html How about a BETA?!!!!1111 10:11:36 circa Win95 era 10:11:45 This card is going to show up as generic to anything. 10:11:54 Since it's just VirtualBox's fake card. 10:12:06 Yes, but I'm not sure 5.x had the Win95 video driver parts; 6.53 should have them, maybe. 10:12:12 good point 10:13:01 "Bing cashback" ... man they push too hard :-P 10:13:17 * Rugxulo is waiting for the day, real soon now, when XBox 360 is "obsolete" 10:13:26 what's next? the xbox 719? 10:13:33 Watcom's dialog editor seems quite nice for designing, say, an option thingy. 10:13:41 I wonder if I can be bothered to combine those two menus. 10:13:51 it was all a marketing gimmick to offset dumb customers saying "wow, PS3 sounds better than Xbox2" (allegedly) 10:13:58 ais523: The xbox 129600, maybe. 10:14:08 XBox++ ;-) 10:14:14 XBoxXP 10:14:24 Gah, I hate Windows installers that set their own backdrop and hide everything else. 10:14:30 YBox. 10:14:33 XBox4 (when it's really XBox 3.1) 10:14:36 "We've jumped one extra-major version". 10:14:52 Though maybe the "why box" doesn't sound so good. 10:14:52 XBobx 10:15:00 Lawl, it used the internet to CHECK FOR AN UPDATE in the installer; ran into a 320 moved temporarily, probably squatted. 10:15:00 Still, if Nintendo can run with Wii... 10:15:10 yeah, Wii was pretty bad 10:15:25 * Rugxulo remembers all the perverted jokes for days after that ... 10:15:33 The power glove, it's so bad. (I get that connotation every time someone says "bad".) 10:15:42 hey fizzie 10:15:45 Robby the Robot! 10:15:53 it will operate for 21 days and give a reminder mesage for 10 seconds each time my computer boots 10:15:56 although hitting a key will skip that 10:15:57 ehird95: how did it react? 10:15:57 Since the context was "Nintendo", it sounded appropriate this time. 10:15:57 SNES lightgun! SNES mouse! 10:16:10 ehird95: 10:16:11 SciTech Display Doctor 6.53 10:16:11 Supports: Windows and DOS. 10:16:11 Free Version Code 10:16:12 Reg Code: 00000-173D626E-02002 10:16:12 Full Name: 6.x Free Edition 10:16:20 That was my next question! 10:16:21 :D 10:16:21 incidentally, how did the limited-time shareware programs react to being uninstalled and reinstalled? 10:16:38 *ais523 has a heart attack from fizzie's flagrant violation of the law* 10:16:47 ais523: they buried it in the registry or sth 10:16:48 ehird95: That's directly from Scitech, you know. 10:16:51 beh 10:17:05 yeah, they don't sell it anymore 10:17:07 surely pirates would just write a registry-diffing program, or something? 10:17:14 And yes, quite many did try to leave all kinds of droppings around the file system and registry. 10:17:21 pirates will (and do) crack anything and everything 10:17:36 yes, I know it's pointless trying to stop it 10:17:39 even (rarely) for actually good reasons ;-) 10:17:56 IMO it's pointless putting DRM on things in the first place, because it only hurts legit users 10:18:05 after all, pirates can run it whatever you do... 10:18:06 If you don't consider copyright legitimate, then piracy is the obvious thing to do if you're bored 10:18:14 well, if you have the time, rather 10:18:18 and by piracy i meant cracking 10:18:26 well, yes 10:18:30 the two go together 10:18:35 Most of those actual "keep track of registry and disk changes for cleaning up after lazy uninstallers" have a side effect of accidentally breaking that "DRM". 10:18:37 we're spoiled with free software nowadays, though 10:18:38 normally 10:18:52 ais523: not really 10:19:03 the easiest way to get a pirated application circulating is to buy it and distribute the license key 10:19:08 I'm not sure how common that is, though 10:19:09 fizzie: my favoured method for breaking that sort of DRM is to use Wine 10:19:11 ehird95: Are you saying no just to be negative? 10:19:12 Anyway, reboot time 10:19:24 -!- ehird95 has quit. 10:19:27 "and how does that make you feel?" 10:19:36 "and you think shut up you suck because of why?" 10:20:00 anybody remember Dr. Sbaitso? ;-) 10:21:00 "Is it because of the people you hang around with that you say legally imposed culture reduction is cabbage brained?" (courtesy of M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead) 10:21:35 heh, they removed yow.lines in latest versions due to copyright (ironically) 10:22:01 yeah, lots of Zippy the Pinhead sales out there (not) 10:22:59 " ehird95: Areware pround with that was all the people younded appropriate this timposed culturee Edit was all the perverted distribute the law*" (courtesy of copy-paste and M-x dissociated-press). 10:23:23 "pround" is a nice word, it should have a meaning. 10:23:34 "A combination of the english words "Proud" and "Fond". Often used when a sense of joyous ecstacy overcomes your ability to comprehend spacing between words resulting the the binding the the afformentioned base words." 10:23:36 Oh, it has. 10:23:54 English is goofy 10:24:12 Well, that was from the urban dictionary, so maybe it's not all that established. 10:24:39 Quite a lot of the results seem to be just misspellings of proud. 10:25:23 heh, yeah, I wouldn't trust Urban Dictionary 10:25:32 * Rugxulo never heard of "pround", at least 10:25:32 -!- ehird95 has joined. 10:25:46 who knows, though, maybe Shakespeare used it 10:25:50 no supported vga chip found, waah, i'm a retarded driver of retardedness 10:25:53 and my name is sswhatever 10:26:20 manual override time 10:26:36 eh 10:26:39 it has a list of chips and shit 10:26:42 this isn't generic vesa 10:26:44 this is specific vesa 10:28:17 :/ 10:29:10 VESA itself is the standard, but all the behind-the-scenes stuff is non-standard 10:29:44 the bearwindows stuff works mostly :P 10:30:13 Yes, UniVBE originally was written to provide standards-compatible VESA support for specific video cards. I really did think SDD, when they added the "use directly as a Win9x driver", also added the option to use that driver as a generic VESA thing. 10:30:49 Well, it doesn't work. 10:30:53 anyone know how to remove a windows control panel btw? 10:31:21 back in Windows 3.1 I think you could just delete the file from the directory and it would work 10:31:27 I have no idea if that still works, nor where the directory is 10:31:33 remove what exactly? the process? file? menu? 10:31:36 it. 10:31:37 the panel. 10:31:39 it's non-standard. 10:31:41 not windows. 10:31:42 someone installed it. 10:32:00 panel under Control Panel? 10:32:14 yes 10:32:23 no uninstaller? 10:32:42 nope. 10:32:54 then no easy way (that I know of) 10:33:00 Weren't those just .cpl files? Or was that win3.1? 10:33:20 Maybe there was some sort of registry registration for them. 10:33:29 right you are 10:33:31 I'm sure you can find some tweakery programs from the interwebs to do it. 10:33:52 Qemu emulates three different video cards -- "Cirrus Logic GD5446 Video card. All Windows versions starting from Windows 95 should recognize and use this graphic card" by default, alternatively "Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions" (for winxp vesa-2 driver) or "VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter" -- it's a bit funny that virtualbox does only their own. 10:33:52 just leave it, it's not hurting anything is it? 10:34:19 yes it is, it's some software licensing pay-trial-extort bullshit and I want it gone... 10:34:23 Rugxulo: if you knew ehird, you wouldn't say that 10:34:25 annyway, reboot time 10:34:30 *anyway 10:34:42 -!- ehird95 has quit. 10:35:14 all this just to run Creatures whatever? 10:35:41 * Rugxulo ain't knocking it, just seems a bit painful 10:37:00 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:37:40 -!- ehird95 has joined. 10:37:48 right, back to bearwindows. 10:37:53 ehird95: I think TweakUI actually has a control-panel-icon-destroyomator. 10:38:30 i'll install tweakui. 10:38:31 brb. 10:38:41 Just removing the .cpl file might still work, that's mentioned on one page. 10:40:33 sounds risky 10:40:43 I'm not sure it was ever meant to be uninstalled 10:41:59 http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000136.htm says you can, though. 10:43:00 Of course it removes just the control panel tab, nothing else the program might've installed. 10:53:54 * Rugxulo goes to sleep now 10:53:58 have fun with Win95 10:53:59 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 11:05:47 you should be able to install 95 and then replace the kernel with nt 4, right 11:05:49 s/$/?/ 11:06:57 Maybe in the abstract sense of "should in a perfect world". 11:07:24 I put the whole M-x dissociated-press result to pastebin, since there were some pretty funny bits in it: http://pastebin.com/m40fba1a0 11:07:26 with hacking 11:07:54 "negatime shareware" sounds very hi-tech, for example. 11:08:16 "xp and later versions" wrt tweakui 11:08:19 sigh 11:08:53 Huh? You obviously want the PowerToys'95 set, incl. TweakUI. 11:09:19 click the article 11:09:20 read 11:09:32 Microsoft Windows XP and later revisions of Windows users can easily enable and remove Control Panel icons with the TweakUI program. 11:09:56 Ah. Well, just removes the .cpl, it's listed on that page too. 11:12:03 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 11:12:03 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:12:12 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95. 11:13:15 According to screenshots tweakui 1.33 (which is 9x still) does have a "control panel" tab, but I can't find a screenshot of the contents of the tab, so I don't know what it can do. 11:13:32 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:13:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:14:08 command prompts still fail 11:14:14 anyone know about any _generic_ windows vesa driver? 11:14:49 I'm not sure if there is one 11:14:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:16:28 there is 11:16:31 I'm using one right now 11:16:37 usability fail: Evolution changes its icon when I switch between inbox and calendar modes 11:16:38 http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm 11:16:46 ais523: Evolution is one gigantic usability fail 11:16:59 really? it's the most just-works of any email client I've ever seen 11:17:13 Thunderbird feels clunky after using it, Outlook feels clunky regardless of what else I've been using 11:17:22 It's like Outlook, except more enterprisey and more "unique" (i.e. inconsistent with everything else) 11:17:46 hmm... maybe I prefer the Evolution way of doing things, then 11:17:58 if everything else does the same thing and Evolution does something different, that would explain a lot 11:18:18 Evolution is, at least, very un-GNOME I'm sure you can agree. 11:18:31 For one, it has like 5 applications in one (calendar, tasks, email, ...) 11:18:40 For two, its preferences pane is fucking mammoth! 11:18:41 it's kind-of weird 11:18:47 this system feels like it was built around Evolution 11:18:49 For three, its UI is complicated 11:18:52 as opposed to Evolution being added into it 11:18:59 For four, it doesn't really feel native 11:19:00 And yet 11:19:00 * ais523 loads apport 11:19:03 I've found a crashbug 11:19:03 Evolution is part of GNOME 11:19:11 It's kinda shitty. 11:19:16 ehird95: most of the things in the DE seem to integrate with it 11:19:23 Oh, they talk together, sure. 11:19:28 But Evolution itself does not feel GNOME. 11:19:36 you're right, it doesn't 11:19:40 it doesn't feel KDE either, though 11:19:43 That's why I dislike people calling Evolution integrated; it's not integrated in the way you really feel. 11:19:44 it's something of its own 11:19:58 it's GNOME, uncanny valley, turn left at preferences street 11:20:14 hmm... Firefox would be a good comparison 11:20:22 that isn't particularly gnomish either, and has lots of preferences 11:20:48 Gnomish mines. 11:21:08 also, they're both very good at persistency 11:21:12 which is one of Gnome's strong points 11:21:20 (ironically, Firefox > Evolution at persistency) 11:22:41 yay, it had already been reported 11:22:51 and fixed in karmic, wontfix in jaunty-proposed 11:22:59 -!- linf has joined. 11:23:11 hi lament 11:23:18 eeeeeeeee 11:23:19 (I'm guessing, don't know for certain...) 11:23:52 HELLO WORLD :-D 11:24:07 but out of all the Russian people called Nikita, one of them is a lot more likely to come to this channel than the others 11:25:23 ais523: pochemu? 11:25:29 ? 11:26:02 pochemu - why 11:26:06 :) 11:26:33 just based on what's happened in the past 11:26:35 I'm extrapolating 11:26:39 I'll let you learn English, and I'll Russian 11:26:41 ;-) 11:27:15 you psychic? 11:27:57 no, just relying on whois data 11:28:16 hahhahaha 11:28:20 when I see an unusual nick in here, I try to work out if it's someone new, or otherwise, who it is 11:29:19 My nickname is unusual? 11:29:52 well, not usually in this channel 11:31:02 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 11:31:06 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird. 11:31:17 and that, ais523, is why i want a new graphics driver :P 11:31:30 it crashed? 11:32:04 when a dos program takes focus 11:32:07 well 11:32:08 when it starts 11:32:12 graphics go all weird 11:32:13 have to reest 11:32:14 reset 11:32:16 might be virtualbox bug 11:32:19 but it still occurs 11:32:20 hi linf 11:32:34 * ehird waits for ehird95 to die 11:33:34 the perils of unregistered nicks 11:34:07 i live dangerously, god damn 11:34:08 ehird: privet =))) 11:34:33 all of a sudden the minimize/maximize animations are really slow... 11:34:59 ais523: my info says that I am Nikita? 11:35:12 yes, it's your username 11:35:16 as opposed to your nick, which is linf 11:35:30 IRC usernames are more or less irrelevant nowadays, tbg 11:35:31 *tbh 11:35:56 And your real name is "purple"; coincidentally, x-chat's rainbow-colors-for-nicks thing has allocated a reasonably purple color for the nick, too. 11:36:25 ais523: if not written, that I am Nikita, how do you know that I am Nikita? 11:36:38 well, you could be lying 11:36:45 but your client /thinks/ you are Nikita, somewhere 11:37:21 My client - a psychic =))) 11:37:35 it could be your username on your own computer 11:37:40 that's a common way to determine what username to use on IRC 11:37:53 and people often use their real name for that 11:37:54 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:38:22 So who wants to have a friend in Russia? For me, it is important to better learn English 11:39:01 I do not hide ... 11:39:12 -!- ehird95 has joined. 11:39:18 ais523: what is your name? 11:39:31 according to my whois data, it's hidden 11:39:39 and presumably I should trust it on that 11:39:55 I mean, forgetting who I was would be embarassing... 11:40:39 I did not understand nothing ... I do not know very well English 11:40:58 there's a channel ##english on Freenode to help people learn English 11:41:48 I are having many english speakings thanking much 11:41:49 but I want to talk on the topic and teach the esoteric 11:42:31 linf: we're not about esoterica 11:42:36 just esoteric programming languages 11:42:41 heh 11:43:03 =(( 11:43:16 I PUT ON MY WIZARD ROBE AND HAT 11:43:17 freenode is mostly about technology 11:43:25 sorry. 11:43:28 Russian music what do you know? 11:43:34 Hooks for feet... Eyes... Made of wood! 11:43:37 :-[ 11:43:41 Russian music, now there's a topic. 11:43:51 That's not esoterica nor esolangs. Has anyone come in here for russian music before? 11:44:22 andestend 11:44:39 not understand 11:44:42 :-[ 11:44:42 linf: this isn't the channel for you. sorry 11:44:45 :( 11:45:01 ais523: You mean (this is obviously not my real name) is not actually your real name? "What." 11:45:37 sad... Why someone does not like Russian =((( 11:46:42 we didn't actually say that. 11:47:43 I just want interesting international communication! :-[ 11:51:10 -!- ehird95 has changed nick to jioretjoi5. 11:52:33 -!- jioretjoi5 has changed nick to ehird95. 11:52:45 hey, i just realised my name is appropriate in more ways than one 11:53:08 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:54:04 0.01 points for recognizing why 11:57:13 Because you have windows 95? 11:57:17 You are 95 years old? 11:57:22 You have 95 penises? 11:57:31 You are 95% complete? 11:58:27 hmm... were you born in 1995? 11:59:10 yes 11:59:15 0.01 points to you! 11:59:33 Slereah_: first one is "am using" which was the original intention 12:00:13 Aww, I didn't have time for my guess: you create a similar combustion results than a 95 % iso-octane / 5 % heptane fuel mixture. 12:00:27 Yes! 12:00:50 Windows 95 should have a mouse-updater in the kernel so that you never have a laggy mouse. :P 12:02:16 grr... there really needs to be something like task manager in 2000 12:02:22 Windows 95 =-O 12:02:24 so that you can see what processes are making your system lag 12:02:25 oh, for a moment I thought you meant mouse driver updates in the kernel 12:02:31 ais523: :D 12:02:35 linf: yep 12:02:46 >:o 12:02:57 I use linux 12:03:00 me too. 12:03:47 ehird95: i love you frend 12:03:50 :-[ 12:04:39 fungot: And which OS do you use? 12:04:40 fizzie: i ask fnord about africa) is an artifact of a particular form? i lack unicode terminals. :) you guys always have something to match ( a b)) using curried terms. how might you write the rest of her sf is good, i surely have *that* ;p 12:05:03 i'm happy :-[ 12:05:11 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:06:06 ugh, the idea of trying to learn English from fungot has just crossed my mind 12:06:07 ais523: fizzie'll be there to make it print out _every_ replacement operation, and then some 12:06:23 wow, that was... really in-context, and made sense 12:06:28 :D 12:06:30 and was even a plausible reply to my comment 12:06:35 it only made some sort of sense, mind 12:06:38 that's one of the best fungot responses ever 12:06:38 ais523: i'll hang around here. been poking through the wiki 12:06:48 oh dear 12:06:55 ^style 12:06:56 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 12:06:57 he might get ideas about rewriting himself... 12:06:58 ааааааааааааааааааааааааааааааа 12:07:04 don't do that fungot, mmkay? 12:07:06 ehird95: it will be too much. i just got linked to " t" without the leading dot as one of the dirs in load-path, after adding an autoload and the filename association, i got all excited about going to sleep 12:07:26 yeah, messing with drugs like that can mess you up, who gets excited about sleeping? 12:07:28 stay clean fungot! 12:07:28 ehird95: that's right. it was in this channel 12:07:39 at least you could have done it in private... 12:07:47 Maybe I should start selling the code to various schools as a tool for learning English. 12:07:48 ais523: are we sure fungot hasn't actually spontaneously emerged as a strong AI? 12:07:49 ehird95: i don't even want to know me!!! so that will probably work better 12:07:49 why isn't HackEgo here? I want to qdb that fungot comment... 12:07:49 ais523: that method shouldn't be underestimated though, just sign on and listen to some. i just wanted to ping ehird, as i said 12:08:22 :D 12:08:29 how is it being topical! 12:08:47 "i don't even want to know me!!!" is a good quote too, but potentially verbatim 12:09:04 It is being done using the magic of YOUR BRAIN, which can make topical out of just about anything. 12:09:10 yes 12:09:17 sometimes is more topical than other times 12:10:29 ais523: well, it referred to rewriting itself in another language as too much and described a horrific linker accident where, after adding an entry to the linker autoload path and setting up a file association its brain chemistry made it excited about going to sleep, and then mentioned that it was in this chnnel. 12:10:30 but still I love Madonna 12:10:32 :-D 12:10:38 that's remarkably coherent, even for fungot :P 12:10:39 ehird95: you should have called it ++c c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em), when a context of an interpreter 12:10:51 that's a really bad name, fungot. 12:10:52 ehird95: when tiny-clos allocates a generic function, it's a fnord 12:11:08 * ehird95 resists the urge to fork tiny-clos and rewrite it to call them fnords 12:11:10 you're right, that's an /incredibly/ bad name 12:11:14 anyone want to add it to esolang/ 12:11:25 I can't even tell what the name is 12:11:34 ++cc c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em)? 12:11:34 neither can I 12:11:38 *++c 12:11:42 that was my first guess 12:11:43 ++c c-- --c? 12:11:45 who knows 12:11:59 I should fix the whitespacing, though. 12:12:02 fungot's Scheme is so very stylistic; he loves putting that space after the opening paren. 12:12:03 ehird95: is on the infinite machine; the same solution. 12:12:06 fizzie: snap! 12:12:16 fungot: sweet, I love infinity machines! 12:12:16 ehird95: and i'll do the next excersise... thx for the ref :) thanks 12:12:25 ...but I want to use it, fungot :| 12:12:44 la la la 12:12:44 hmph. 12:13:45 Next time I need a name for a project, I'll just go http://pastebin.com/m20f7a77c 12:14:14 "++c, tail of the stream maker" has a nice ring to it. 12:14:20 allocates one (bad) is a silly name. 12:14:32 [[you should have called it sins: sins is not scheme at all is useful. each implementation does things slightly differently the latter is nonstandard, but most implementations have "real" programming language.]] 12:14:37 needs esolang wikiing 12:14:38 stat 12:15:11 "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would act like minion does in lisp it does wiki lookups" :D 12:15:33 "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would run infinitely slowly or so. was there ever a gigantic hoax in computer science?" yes, infinitely slow pink fluffy ponies 12:17:41 It's a bit too fixated on pink fluffy ponies (and whose fault is that, eh?) and that silly "++c c-- --c" name. 12:21:29 So. 12:21:51 I'd better learn how to work the Open Watcom IDE. 12:22:08 ais523: have you ever used it? you seem like the type to 12:22:25 I haven't 12:22:30 I had heard of it, but no more 12:22:35 I /am/ probably the type to, just haven't 12:22:57 It's quite 16-bit. 12:23:02 In feel, that is. 12:23:09 I haven't yet managed to create and edit a file in a project... 12:24:21 Another fungot gem: "believes in santa, or possibly codepoints." 12:24:21 fizzie: i noticed." i was trying to use lambda yet? it's s'posed to 12:24:38 Yes, often when kids learn santa isn't real, they start to believe in codepoints instead. 12:24:57 ais523: the programs have a greyed out help menu item, and a separate top-level start menu folder for just the help books... 12:25:00 (in windows help format) 12:25:10 which windows help format? 12:25:15 there are at least 3 12:25:29 but as we're talking windows 95, it'll either be winhelp (or winhlp32), or chm 12:26:43 winhlp32, I believe 12:26:55 it's formatted, but not htmlcrap 12:27:05 isn't chm a 98 thing? 12:27:46 oh, could be 12:28:46 August 1997 HTML Help 1.0 (HH 1.0) was released with Internet Explorer 4. 12:28:46 February 1998 HTML Help 1.1a shipped with Windows 98. 12:28:49 Yes, a bit newer. 12:29:20 older, you mean 12:29:21 than 98 12:29:37 Well, yes. A bit newer than your '95. 12:30:31 -!- linf has left (?). 12:30:54 What are they doing nowadays? Wikipedia speaks about something called "Microsoft Help 2" with .hxs files, and an upcoming "Microsoft Help 3" where a .mshc file is just a renamed zip with XHTML 1.x and images/other-data inside. 12:30:54 two years newer. 12:31:07 Just whatever they had in XP. 12:31:18 With the question/answer checkboxes "wizard" troubleshooters; all useless. 12:32:35 "In 2008 Microsoft relented and released a download of WinHlp32.exe for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607". I like the use of the word "relent" there. 12:33:49 they should just use Info format 12:35:34 what's wrong with this channel? I say something obviously ridiculous and nobody responds... 12:36:33 well, I had mIRC minimized to tray and hadn't hit it for a few minutes 12:37:15 I got lost in the Texinfo reference manual. :p 12:38:16 I haven't ever seen a .hxs file 12:38:47 even .chm seems to be loosing on the ebookz market to pdf. 12:40:03 .hxs files are used in the modern (.NET and later) Visual Studio help system. 12:40:16 They look quite messy, though it might be just that the help system is so large. 12:40:31 ok, so i stumbled upon them without knowing. 12:40:50 "Microsoft Help 2.x is the help engine used in Microsoft Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008 and Office 2007." 12:41:07 well, the online MSDN also looks messy, I guess thats mostly a Microsoft-thing 12:41:53 Microsoft has a talent for hiding good documentation in the most awkward places. 12:44:31 MSDN also has a talent for self-contradiction 12:44:41 because searching it keeps finding the wrong version of the API, or whatever 12:51:39 -!- ehird has joined. 12:51:50 huh. 12:54:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:59:09 . 12:59:32 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:00:38 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird95. 13:02:24 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:02:49 Says something about the priorities of people: things have started to collect in the "fremantle-extras" Maemo 5 repository; discounting supporting libraries and such, there are 6 real packages; and one of them is the robotfindskitten game. 13:03:54 Obviously http://rfk.garage.maemo.org/ is what really needs to be there before the official device launch. 13:05:38 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 13:10:16 pixels of x 13:10:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:15:02 yay, I've added Fitts.c to the project C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.wpj 13:15:10 and am now editing C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.c in the Wacom editor 13:22:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:22:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:33:34 how's your internet today, internet folk 14:33:55 Yellow and tangy. 14:34:07 interesting 14:34:28 green and limy 14:34:47 have i mentioned i hate calculus 14:35:31 of course, this time i hate it because integration is too hard, i suppose it's usually the other way around 14:36:48 integration is one of those things that's impossible in general 14:36:50 like comparing functions 14:37:19 i know; that's sort of the kind of stuff i know. 14:38:25 "The other way around", i.e. integration is too hard because you hate calculus? 14:38:46 anyway it's an iterated integral, integrating by either variable using the wolfram thingie gives an incomprehensible megaexpression 14:39:19 fizzie: almost; usually because it's too easy 14:39:50 so "for the opposite reason" or something to that bend might've been more diple. 14:39:55 I can well imagine oklopol's hatred of something making it more difficult 14:40:00 as you can't then ask oklopol for help 14:40:09 anyway, it seems that we have an esolang name language clash 14:40:18 as Keymaker created an esolang also called Clue 14:40:26 omg 14:40:43 let's hope i keep this speed up at uni so i don't have time for esolangs :P 14:41:01 Either one of you could maybe add a diacritic somewhere. 14:41:27 cL 14:41:43 wait that' looks like a c implementation of lua 14:41:47 Clue̫ 14:41:47 *that 14:41:53 clue (`) 14:42:04 I don't see why we can't have two unrelated esolangs with exactly the same name 14:42:08 (It's an "e" with a combining inverted double arch below.) 14:42:11 then we can have Clue (disambiguation) 14:42:12 ais523: good point :D 14:42:30 Esolang needs a dab page, it's feeling kind-of lonely without one 14:43:09 ais523: Having two languages with identical names will cause the Universe algorithm to become confusing, and it might accidentally merge the languages (and their authors) into a single entity. 14:43:24 s/confusing/confused/; it is confusing already. 14:44:02 merging oklopol and Keymaker together could have rather weird results 14:44:24 Run, it's the oklomaker! 14:44:46 wow, a sort of oklo factory would be worrying 14:45:03 the whole world would be full of oklopols and oklofoks and oklojots and whatever 14:45:36 and the average IQ would go massively over 100 and the contradiction would cause everything to become true 14:46:03 stop calling me intelligent, it's confusing :D 14:46:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:47:10 yay only one month till universality proofs 14:47:17 and undecidability 14:47:17 there's no reason you can't be both intelligent /and/ confused 14:47:31 probably more undecidability than universality 14:49:13 i like to think of computability theory as the art of ruining puzzles for mathematicians 14:49:42 party, kar8nga 14:49:44 ! 14:50:09 Maybe I should stick some sort of PCFG babble-generator into fungot; that would mean more well-structured output, and the generation part is still really very simple, although not quite so trivial as with the current n-gram model. 14:50:09 fizzie: i went through every book i could find 14:50:22 fungot: And still you can't really speak. 14:50:22 fizzie: the helpful article might be a deliberate typo or someone has vandalized the text. perhaps the cards have jumpers to set the stack size 14:51:08 "the helpful article might be a deliberate typo" 14:51:21 fungot has a point 14:51:22 FireFly: thank you, that budapest national anthem!!! wrong channel :) 14:51:28 Oh, I see 14:52:01 I'd need either POS-tagged corpora or a well-working tagger to get training data for that, though. 14:52:53 how can an article be a deliberate typo, i mean i suppose an article could be considered a typo if it was accidentally written, and a typo could be considered deliberate if it looked like it was an accident but wasn't 14:53:01 but if you merge those 14:53:08 i can't see it 14:53:15 also sorting cards is my new hobby 14:53:48 not speedsorting, trying out different algos (my record is 2:15 or something) 14:54:03 (for speedsorting, in case someone happens to speedsort) 14:54:22 heapsort is kinda hard with a dog jumping on the cards 14:54:26 oklopol: Since we don't tolerate helpfulness around these parts, the article had to look like it was trying to be unhelpful, and someone had just accidentally written it so that it ended up being helpful after all. But the "mistake" was in fact deliberate, and now we'll need to find the culprit before everything's helpful. 14:55:04 That must've been what fungot meant 14:55:05 FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on 14:55:30 `style 14:55:35 : ^style 14:55:37 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 14:55:38 Ah 14:55:46 ` was for... hackego? 14:55:49 fizzie: i suppose that's semipossible 14:55:52 Probably 14:56:32 my internet is broken, have to reboot the modemo thingie 14:56:42 the metanature of the article which was apparently a deliberate typo is confusing me :< 14:57:27 -!- oklofog has joined. 14:58:04 oh, right, i'm using a proxy slow as hell 14:58:44 tried to get megavideo to think i'm an american, seems proxys don't get me that, maybe one of you nerds can explain why 14:59:03 *hulu 14:59:12 not megavideo 15:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:14:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:14:46 wait topic set by ais523, originally by ehird though, right? 15:14:54 no, I set it 15:15:28 interesting 15:16:18 should probably get back to my maths soon 15:16:36 been slackering for almost an hour 15:46:00 -!- nooga has joined. 15:46:02 hey 15:50:21 -!- nooga_ has joined. 15:51:07 i've got a 'formal languages' course on my university 15:51:56 i thought that i could make a project instead of going to classes 15:55:30 the teacher said 'ok, but you have to construct a problem for yourself' 15:55:39 and i don't have an idea 16:00:02 i though about some metalanguage fun 16:03:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:05:10 -!- ehird95 has joined. 16:08:20 h 16:08:59 so, Nathan of toastytech (of huge-collection-of-screenshots-of-GUIs, crazy IE-eliminating and Windows 95-...well, tolerating fame) fame has posted on the mozilla forums and bugzilla to get the latest seamonkey working on windows 95 (which he still uses as his OS, apparently) 16:09:23 but mine doesn't even get to that stage; I think I need some DLLs from IE 4 (I obliterated IE entirely, hee) 16:09:33 so, yeah, time to extract some installers. 16:10:46 06:55:05 FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on 16:10:47 ehird95: fnord sounds better that way. costs me next to nothing. 16:10:51 that *is* a better idea 16:11:03 fungot: but is it ethical? i mean, doing all that just to make your fnords better? it costs PEOPLE'S LIVES, dude. 16:11:04 ehird95: it's not a religious issue at all). note that lst may be a dotted list 16:11:11 fungot: you can have ethics without being religious 16:11:12 ehird95: what book and what is not 16:11:16 fungot: what. 16:11:17 ehird95: are the dots for? 16:11:22 fungot: i don't know. what are the dots for? 16:13:13 also: hooray for irfanview, another quality program that runs on 95. 16:14:28 (boo for opera, eater of my system resources) 16:14:48 fungot: bump 16:14:49 ais523: http://pastebin.ca/ fnord on line 91. obviously things have changed. 16:15:27 fungot: you linked to the home page by mistake, rather than to the actual paste... 16:15:28 ais523: do you put your data on the stack than i intended, but almost :) 16:21:46 * ehird95 tries opera 9; apparently it's less hogging 16:21:57 then seamonkey... 16:23:00 ummmmmmm 16:23:08 i just deleted opera and now i have no browsers 16:23:09 * ehird95 clever 16:24:49 wget something? 16:24:58 On Windows 95? 16:25:05 Ah 16:25:08 Maybe not, then 16:25:09 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:25:19 I could use ftp, if DOS prompts didn't fuck up the system. 16:25:34 Ah, IE 3 is on the Windows disc. 16:26:37 -!- ehird95 has quit. 16:58:11 -!- ehird95 has joined. 16:58:36 Hi. 16:59:25 hi 17:00:22 hi 17:01:12 -!- jix has joined. 17:01:52 erm, what d you use to extract cabs and installers on windows? 17:01:56 *do 17:02:04 generally you just double-click them 17:02:16 on a .cab? no, that just gives the unknown file dialog 17:02:33 it was very common to have GUI decompression software installed, normally shareware, back then 17:03:19 I have WinZip 6 installed, but it doesn't do cabs. 17:03:37 ugh 17:03:47 why ugh? 17:04:38 I guess I could install 7-Zip or something 17:04:41 wow, I found the official instructions from Microsoft about extracting .cabs 17:04:49 Oh? 17:04:49 do you have internet access so you can see the stupidity for yourself? 17:04:54 or shall I say it over IRC? 17:05:05 I have Opera, yes. 17:05:08 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/129605 <--- so everyone can laugh at the windows 95 instructions 17:05:17 Opera 9 with a Windows ME dll helping it along, right now. 17:05:34 it suggests using Start | Find | Files or Folders to find extract.exe 17:05:38 Somehow adding this ME component actually *improves* its operation. 17:05:44 on the installation disk 17:05:46 Which would, at first site, seem to be an anti-tautology. 17:05:50 and then, copying it to the root directory of drive C 17:05:56 ais523: :D 17:06:13 this is Microsoft's own advice, surely they'd know where it was? 17:07:05 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:07:29 (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME) 17:07:32 -!- ehird95 has joined. 17:07:35 What did I miss? 17:07:37 (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME) 17:07:50 I was testing to see if extract.exe is already included in Windows 95. I gather it was, because I got a DOSboxcrash. 17:07:53 *it is 17:07:55 not it was 17:08:10 so in other words, the instructions are not only ridiculous, but also unnecessarily convoluted? 17:08:15 I believe so. 17:08:28 So, I guess my first task is to fix DOS prompts. 17:10:38 great, i broke a key. 17:11:14 uck this shit. 17:13:01 which one? 17:13:03 and how? 17:13:09 in hardware or software? 17:15:15 the key 17:15:18 and in hardware 17:15:31 by snapping one o the prongs that plugs into the key hole, thing 17:15:38 "If you try Scitech Display Doctor as an alternative VGA Driver: You must try Version 7. Versions before this (5.x, 6.x) are known not to work." 17:15:40 d'oh 17:15:46 * ehird95 pokes izzie 17:15:47 shit 17:15:51 how am i meant to ping izzie :D 17:15:56 izzie: slave! appear! 17:18:27 * ehird95 downloads sdd 7 beta 17:19:11 I'm guessing that the key in question is f 17:19:19 and I'll ping fizzie for you if necessary 17:20:10 That's totally alse. What a raternical attitude, to associate like a ern the concept o the key when there is no ucking rational evidence to back up the claim. I have expelled latulence more logical and unny! 17:21:00 it would be so great if you were bluffing 17:21:19 can you easily remap it to one of the other keys? 17:21:25 maybe in the virtualiser? 17:21:34 there are all the F-keys, as well as f itself, for instance 17:22:37 wll th ky dosn't it into that hol 17:23:07 rtttttttttttttttttr334445544444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444cttt 17:23:09 tttttttttttttttttttttt 17:23:12 tt 17:23:24 you don't need to change the physical layout... 17:23:27 yhhhhhhhhhhhhhh5555555555555yhyu 17:24:03 i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy 17:24:19 exdf 17:24:38 hey, damaged key worksfff 17:24:41 wels weird hough 17:24:59 Possible success! Fucking yay! 17:25:00 yeo 17:25:01 yep 17:25:03 you're typing reall badly 17:25:05 *really badly 17:25:07 for a typical ehird 17:25:14 well, in this line: 17:25:16 presumably this is due to the keyboard problems 17:25:22 [17:05] i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy 17:25:28 the whole block of keys around f was totally missing 17:25:32 it was meant to read: 17:25:44 i was trying to put the "3" (back) (i.e. backwards i.e. e) key in slot (i.e. slot of f key) 17:26:00 ugh, the f key's tactileness is subtly but annoyingly different now 17:26:13 rebooting for SciTech Displa Doctor 7 Beta! 17:26:15 *Display 17:26:21 is your keyboard back in order? 17:26:22 -!- ehird95 has quit. 17:31:24 -!- ehird95 has joined. 17:31:30 good news: the driver seems to work 17:31:40 bad news: the configuration panel looks like XP and has animations. 17:31:43 ugh 17:31:47 I hope I can not run it all the time 17:31:57 Also, of course, I will have to pirate it. 17:32:07 is it a shareware driver? 17:32:21 Yes; Scion Display Doctor aka UniVBE or whatever it's called. 17:32:25 Sorry, SciTech. 17:33:13 shareware drivers are a horrible horrible thought 17:33:26 my mind is refusing to comprehend the possibility that they exist 17:33:34 even though you've said they do 17:33:47 ais523: eh 17:33:58 ais523: they DID code support for thousands upon thousands of graphics cards -- literally 17:34:10 so it's understandable, if misguided, that they'd demand money for it 17:34:20 yes, but suppose the time runs out; you'll then be unable to see your screen 17:34:29 no, it'll revert to the default VGA driver that can run anything. 17:34:41 windows 95 does that automatically, unlike ancient technology such as, uh, Xorg. 17:35:01 anyway i doubt the actual driver checks the licenses 17:35:20 maybe it spawns something that does, but i highly doubt there's license-checking code inside the driverspace 17:35:42 aaaand command prompts work 17:36:13 hope there's a serial for this somewhere. 17:36:44 * ehird95 installs powerstrip to see if he can get the resolution to be 16:10 17:36:58 are you planning on sticking with windows 95, btw? 17:37:04 erm, define sticking 17:37:13 using it as a main OS for a while 17:37:20 (also, is that a legit copy?) 17:37:25 well, that's effectively what I'm doing, albeit in a VM. also, no. 17:37:35 I doubt this thing will actually become my main OS. 17:37:38 we should port LGA to it 17:37:44 But it *is* suprisingly capable, and I like the GUI. 17:37:45 LGA? 17:37:58 (did you really have to ask whether it was legit, by the way? I mean, it's me!) 17:38:03 so it can become legit 17:38:06 (probably easier than porting WGA, because we don't have the source to that) 17:38:07 oh, ha 17:38:30 i'm not sure microsoft would cooperate :) 17:39:25 * ehird95 decides to give a name to small programs, generally run at startup, that apply globally to the OS and have no UI apart from configuration (if even that) 17:39:26 "fixups" 17:39:37 for instance, Rain is a fixup that runs hlt on idle cycles 17:40:00 ehird95: sort-of like services on UNIX? 17:40:05 the only UI is a system tray icon that you can right click to turn it off/on (it hides/shows rain drops hitting a chip), and if you left-click it a little about dialog pops up (strangely without any attribution) 17:40:17 personally I'd prefer it had no system tray; you can just kill it if you want to disable it 17:40:19 ok, that is strange 17:40:20 *system tray icon 17:40:26 ais523: what's strange? 17:40:35 an about box that doesn't say who made it 17:40:41 that's like, the purpose of about boxes 17:40:59 even the Windows programs I made years ago had help|about menu items that put up a message box 17:41:06 well, no; it tells you what processor it's optimised for 17:41:14 (it's an option when you install) 17:42:40 ais523: anyway, I called them fixups for a reason; it's genreeally of the form "this should be like this in the OS, but it isn't" 17:42:43 *generally 17:42:55 or, less mildly, "I prefer the OS to work this way, but it isn't an option; this works instead" 17:43:12 Fitts, for instance, will be a fixup of the first kind: the OS should obey Fitts' Law, and dammit I'm going to make it. 17:43:35 (It'll be installed entirely into the StartUp menu, and have no UI; you can terminate it via Ctrl+Alt+Delete if you want.) 17:44:26 how are you going to magically make Windows 95 obey Fitts' Law? 17:44:42 and will you make every program do so? or just the things that are part of the OS? or just the things that came with the OS? 17:44:45 well, only one instance actually annoys me that I've noticed: the task bar 17:44:57 does the start button work in the bottom-left corner/ 17:45:06 yes in 2000 onwards 17:45:09 aha 17:45:10 no in 95 17:45:14 what about closeboxes? 17:45:15 and it's REALLY ANNOYING 17:45:20 however, just fixing that isn't all 17:45:27 you can't swipe to the bottom pixel to switch window 17:45:33 so what i'm doing is, removing the border of the task bar 17:45:37 imagine the start button and the window buttons 17:45:41 and just put them right next to each other 17:45:57 and then put that at the bottom of the screen, the regular gray blank taskbar area (but smaller, since it's without the padding) 17:46:07 then the system tray, with its indented border again being as high as the whole thing 17:46:10 voila 17:46:15 fitt's law obeyed, graphical consistency obeyed 17:46:58 it should be quite easy, too 17:47:14 just basically moving the task bar slightly off screen, then painting over it a bit to make the graphics look good 17:47:24 (slightly off screen so that the buttons flush with the screen edges) 17:47:48 well, and force-clipping its height so windows can go in the unused space where there would be padding 17:48:04 then just some extra hackery to move the button widgets next to each other 17:48:16 windows 95 has basically no protections, so i should be able to do it without asking please. 17:48:42 yep 17:51:41 I was not very pokeable, being shopping and eating and thing. 17:51:49 Psht! 17:53:34 Anyone know how to make a Windows monitor definition file? 17:55:05 I did one once, but I certainly have forgotten the knowledge by now. 17:55:19 It was for the 666x666 screen mode I used in Linux, I think. 17:55:29 Perhaps not so useful. 17:56:58 Yay, I can close that awful XP-like thing without breaking the drivers. 17:57:07 My world is a house of joy. 17:57:26 Time to install SeaMonkey 1.1.17, because you have to patch it to get .18 working. 17:57:54 So, I don't suppose anyone knows of something like the task manager for Windows 9x? 17:57:59 There's this http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html thing I might've used; it does monitor.inf format for timings, though not a complete file. 17:58:08 You know, listing processes, their memory usage, their CPU usage, and letting you kill them. 17:58:21 I found one but it sucked so much as to be useless. 17:58:43 fizzie: Timings don't matter if the screen isn't real, do they? 17:59:17 I guess not, no. You just needed the right resolution or something? 17:59:44 Yah; I'm using VESA BIOS stuff and want mah 1680x1050. 18:00:08 I'm not completely sure you'll get it with the VESA driver unless you can get VirtualBox's fakey VESA BIOS to advertise that mode, but who knows. 18:01:00 Yeah, that's what I was thinking. 18:01:44 Erm, what's the DOS pager? 18:01:51 For dir. 18:01:55 more 18:01:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:06 same as in UNIX, come to think of it 18:02:14 I wasn't thinking of that one, but that'll do 18:02:21 There's the built-in "dir/p". 18:02:42 anyone know the command-line switch to mozilla browsers to run in "safe mode" or whatever? 18:02:47 i.e., you're not starting up. stop that. start up. mode 18:02:58 fizzie: that's what I was thinking of 18:03:04 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 18:03:15 Heh, in the DOS 6 configuration I have (with cracked 4dos and all kinds of customizations) somehow more.com has gotten corrupted, and piping anything to more causes an instant reboot. 18:03:33 It's a nice trap. 18:03:54 Is 4DOS any good, then? 18:05:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:05:39 Compiled to command.com, sure; the tab completion was nice, for example. 18:05:50 I don't really remember what the must-have features were. 18:05:51 Compiled to what what what now? 18:06:16 But indeed, no tab completion is annoying me. 18:06:53 There's also a pretty colorful variant of 'dir', with a lot more flags. 18:07:00 ls? 18:07:25 I guess you could use a ported ls. 18:08:03 I have done, on DOS 18:08:15 The 4dos "dir" isn't too shabby though. 18:08:26 I had just that with the right flags aliased. 18:08:53 I wonder if WebKit compiles on 9x, and if not, how much effort it'd be to port it. 18:08:58 Right, and you get a bit more conventional memory free with 4dos than command.com, but that's probably not an issue if you're mostly win95'ing. 18:09:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DOS and the "Features" list is probably pretty comprehensive. The better batch files I've used, though it's obviously only for personal things, since otherwise non-4dos people couldn't use them. 18:11:19 If webkit uses cairo on windows, that could be a problem. (That's primarily why firefox 3 dropped support for 98, I think) 18:12:15 To hell with 98, I'm talkin' 'bout 95. 18:12:27 Anyway, I don't know if it does. 18:14:20 There's quite a lot of Webkit ports, so either it's not horribly difficult to port, or alternatively people have just been suitably inspired. 18:14:56 Well, there's an Official(TM) build. I'd worry that it'd use Apple's font rendering and widgets like in Safari, but the code for those will be Top Secret, s. 18:14:57 *so 18:15:19 And the source is available, obviously, so. 18:15:35 * ehird95 downloads it to see if it balks 18:17:18 hm 18:17:30 in perl what is the B:: "namespace" of modules 18:17:42 Perl compiler internals. 18:17:45 aha 18:17:45 Well, not really internals. 18:17:50 that explains stuff somewhat 18:17:52 Just an exposure of the Perl compiler stuff so you can be Xzibit. 18:18:17 ehird95, "Xzibit"? 18:18:29 weird spelling of "exhibit"? 18:18:33 >_< 18:18:38 We go through this every three months, AnMaster. 18:18:58 I swear to God we do. Every goddamn time you've completely forgotten every memory of it entirely. 18:19:17 ehird95, was it something related to CS? 18:19:25 *sigh* Yes, AnMaster. 18:19:35 ok what then 18:19:41 Uhh, I don't know. 18:19:44 Something or other. 18:19:48 google just gives imdb hits 18:19:54 AnMaster: it'll be on Wikipedia, if you've forgotten 18:19:56 almost certainly 18:20:02 The article isn't very helpful, I imagine. 18:20:05 some actor or such using that stage name 18:20:16 Yo dawg meme, AnMaster. 18:20:44 Originating from Pimp My Ride, vis-a-vis Xzibit putting objects of desire of person P inside P's car, vis-a-vis vapid, vis-a-vis meme potential. 18:20:48 and I forgot what that meme was about 18:21:08 VIS-A-VIS yo dawg I heard you like verb(X)ing I put an X in your Y so you can verb(X) while you verb(Y) 18:21:27 Often also X=Y. 18:21:30 VIS-A-FUCKIN'-VIS morphing into X=Y. 18:21:31 ah 18:21:31 Right. 18:21:32 that one 18:21:32 s/verb(X)ing/participle(X)/ 18:21:39 Thus, being Xzibit ~= doing meta-things. 18:21:50 ais523: touche 18:22:14 Ooh, the status indicator in the service company's tracking page for the broken monitor has changed from red ("in queue") to yellow ("being worked on"). 18:23:59 There's nothing else useful on the tracking page, but at least I can neurotically look at the indicator and wait until it turns green ("ready"). 18:24:29 Then I... uh, I guess I just wait for them to contact me. What is this tracking thing good for, actually? 18:24:42 Neurotically checking. 18:25:42 it's like the nethack devteam with their buglist 18:25:54 it gives the impression of progress without actually benefitting anyone 18:28:19 Oh, there's a subpage with an "event log"; the event log currently has (for today) three copies of the message "received at the service point" and one empty message. 18:29:50 "A Modern Webkit browser on Windows 98 18:29:50 Thanks to cfchris6 who compiled a binary of Arora that runs on Windows98" 18:29:57 Surely must run on 95 then! 18:30:14 Arora kinda... sucks, though. 18:33:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:36:53 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:38:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:54:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:54:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:17:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:39:32 hi oerjan 19:39:39 hi ehird95 19:40:00 -!- ehird95 has quit. 20:18:31 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:32 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:32 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:19:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 20:19:00 -!- jix has joined. 20:19:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:19:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Leonidas has joined. 20:19:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Warrigal has joined. 20:19:17 splat 20:22:28 is this freenode getting rid of their memory leaks? 20:25:56 Beats me. 20:26:24 must be, since netsplits have never happened before 20:26:31 * oerjan ducks 20:38:00 oerjan, iwc 20:39:07 read it hours ago 20:39:32 you weren't here hours ago 20:39:43 (so long he has to recheck, actually) 20:40:44 indeed, there was an error with the nvg server so i didn't get onto irc 20:41:47 oerjan, not that I was here hours ago either. Was listening to someone talking about discrete mathematics at university. 20:44:38 -!- ehird95 has joined. 20:44:51 SeaMonkey sucks, there is nothing better 20:44:55 however, it sucks less than Opera 20:45:25 "discuss" 20:45:57 "blabber blabber" 20:46:22 ehird95, what about firefox? 20:46:31 No Windows 9x support. 20:46:35 oh ok 20:46:39 ehird95, this is in vm no? 20:46:44 Yes. 20:47:28 well then, do main browsing outside vm and just the stuff you actually need the vm for inside the vm? 20:47:37 I don't need this VM for anything. 20:48:03 I decided to try Windows 95, and as an extended experiment/what-if I'm, well, using it. 20:48:26 Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... 20:48:43 Although they could do with supporting Unicode. 20:49:17 Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... <-- hm.. 20:49:18 really? 20:49:26 examples please 20:49:26 Yes. They're wonderfully simple. 20:49:38 err how is that inherently good? 20:49:46 For one, Explorer is pleasant to use and has a real design. 20:49:58 And isn't over-cluttered with 400 million options. 20:50:06 ehird95, explorer in xp is quite reasonable to use. Windows 7... not so 20:50:16 Yeah, I could never use XP's explorer after using 95's. 20:50:18 AnMaster: explorer before 98 was really nice 20:50:26 98 brought in some weird HTML folder description thing, though 20:50:35 so you could translate your folders to HTML and have persistent something-or-others 20:50:36 ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes 20:50:36 Yep, 98 came and fucked it up with its wonderful IE-OS-component bullshit 20:50:42 AnMaster: you have a mental defect 20:50:47 either that or you have never used anything before 98 20:50:53 and have severely lowered standards 20:51:00 98's explorer is unbearable... 20:51:06 ehird95: that's what AnMaster said! 20:51:12 ehird95, I used 95 a bit. Not much. And note " ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes" 20:51:26 I ended up using Explorer in 98 quite a bit 20:51:30 it isn't unusable, just awful 20:51:40 I may actually have an 98 OEM CD somewhere 20:51:49 not sure 20:52:06 Well, if you use 95's explorer for any length of time to do actual stuff, then 98's for a time, and come out of it saying 98's explorer is hell yes... I'm thinking this might be a case of there being an actual objective right/wrong opinion on things. :P 20:52:22 Also: Wow IrfanView can do a lt. 20:52:22 *lot 20:52:48 I remember the weird manual with 98 (OEM at least) had some sort of "rub this area of the outside of the manual that looks like something found on money and it should change colour. If it doesn't this copy is fake" 20:53:04 Ah yes, hologram piracy protection! 20:53:05 was heat based iirc 20:53:40 ehird95, well not exactly. I don't think "warm it up and check if it changes colour" counts as a "hologram" 20:53:53 Really Obvious Giving Away Of Non-Nativeness In SeaMonkey, #742: My OS draws outlines for windows when resizing. SeaMonkey redraws the window constantly. 20:54:07 heh 20:54:15 Less noticably, it uses its own icon for the resize-diagonal cursor, an I have no clue why. 20:55:59 The Watcom IDE is so, so stereotypically Win3.1. 20:58:13 argh not again.... google holiday logo on results page but not on main page 20:58:48 http://www.google.com/logos/gandhi09res.gif 20:58:51 to be precise 21:01:41 * ehird95 has the crushing realisation that he doesn't even know what the prototype for WinMain is, and yet wants to mess with the task bar 21:03:12 ehird95, mess with it how? 21:03:24 if you mean adding something to the area near the clock? 21:03:32 No; that's trivial compared to what I'm doing. 21:03:38 ehird95, what are you doing 21:03:39 In practical terms, my code will: 21:03:55 - move the task bar down and left so that they end off the edge of the display 21:04:11 - forcefully clip the height of the task bar from the top to a certain height 21:04:22 - change spacing between widgets in the task bar 21:04:28 and possibly a little bit more. 21:04:36 AnMaster: i have gandhi on the main page *BWAHAHAHA* 21:04:46 This, while not restricted in any way - 95 has no protection, after all - is going to be non-trivial. 21:05:00 *so that it ends off the edge 21:05:04 Weird pluralisation typo there. 21:05:36 some of wp's sort pages have switched to static sorting visualization 21:05:38 A better alternative to the first one would be moving the widgets in the task bar, which I can probably do. 21:06:17 * oerjan cannot see oklofog clearly 21:06:21 AnMaster: The user-interface effect of this code is that the task bar will obey Fitts' Law: you can hit the bottom-left pixel in the screen to open the start menu, you can select a window even if you hit the very bottom pixel, etc. 21:06:48 what is this law? 21:06:53 AnMaster: This is a Very Good Thing, because the current taskbar is mildly but significantly annoying (I'm unintentionally training myself to be slower aiming for it, which reduces annoyance almost entirely but makes me slower). 21:07:03 AnMaster: It's a law about the easiest places to access with the mouse. 21:07:11 Anything on the screen edge has infinite width/height. 21:07:17 You can move your mouse up and up and it'll stay there. 21:07:24 ah true 21:07:36 And things with infinite height are the easiest to hit; the easiest places on the screen to hit are the exact position your cursor is in, and the four corners. 21:07:52 It has more subtle results than that, but that's the only part my application uses. 21:08:05 ehird95, what are the more subtle results? 21:08:19 Like the easiest places to reach in-between those two extremes. 21:08:36 ehird95, also it isn't true always. Hitting left side of my desktop is currently rather hard due to synergy. 21:08:52 Anyway, Windows 2000 onwards or somesuch already lets you open the start menu with a bottom-leftmost click, but it doesn't redraw the widgets so that the start menu actually ends at the screen edge, which looks weird, and it doesn't let you hit the bottom pixel of the screen to switch windows. 21:09:08 AnMaster: It works perfectly fine there, it just considers both computers as one desktoop. 21:09:13 Because, as far as the mouse is concerned, they are. 21:09:33 Of course, since nothing on the other computer is useful to software on the other, it basically limits the choices of the application. 21:09:52 ehird95, yes, you just have to be aware of that the mouse does not stop at the bottom left corner when going to the K menu 21:10:18 I often end up clicking the right end of the panel on my laptop instead 21:10:29 on the other hand, the alternative is worse 21:10:46 which means I have to sit at an awkward angle for one of the computers 21:10:55 Just set up a delay, dude. 21:11:01 Like 100ms before it switches. 21:11:02 ehird95, I have done so 21:11:05 250 ms 21:11:13 Then it shouldn't really be an issue so much. 21:11:29 Maybe you could add an exception for that corner pixel. 21:11:38 ehird95, well the delay helps a lot. But still I have issues with that yeah 21:11:39 I doubt you want to switch computers through it so very often. 21:11:54 did I say I did? 21:12:12 and well not a lot unless I'm copying stuff between them 21:13:40 So add an exception for that corner pixel. 21:13:51 Voila, Fitts' Law is saved for the most useful cases (the corners). 21:14:02 ehird95, just have to find out how 21:14:08 Well, yes, that would be the hard part. :P 21:14:27 and yeah I should probably add a bit more than that single pixel. since I seem to often hit like 4-5 pixels up the side 21:14:42 however when I actually *want* to switch it is often somewhere in the upper 2/3rd 21:14:55 It's alright, ehird95. We'll work out Win32. Together. 21:15:05 err 21:15:12 that is yourself yeah :P 21:15:12 You don't have to be scared on the WinMain() and the HWND and the LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR. 21:15:34 Come on ehird95. Let's just open the browser and go to Google. CALM DOWN. It will not destroy your soul. Uh, much. 21:15:36 LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR <--- LPT REXTISTENTAL HORROR? 21:15:41 something printer related? 21:15:43 Long pointer to existential horror. 21:15:47 ah 21:16:22 ehird95, are you sure it is actually possible to do this without basically patching system files? 21:16:28 oooh an idea 21:16:29 ELLIOTT. Do not think about the fact that they use stdcall. They are not on crack! Okay, fine, they are on crack. But that doesn't mean you'll be on crack too! When using it? I think? 21:16:35 AnMaster: Windows 95 has no protection. 21:16:37 do it as a windows 95 plus theme thingy 21:16:38 :D 21:16:42 Any process can do what the fuck it wants. 21:16:52 That's how loadlin works; it's just an ordinary process that goes "byebye, Windows". 21:17:04 ehird95, what about stdcall? 21:17:13 It's freaky! 21:17:20 ehird95, I forgot how it differed 21:17:31 I don't recall either, I just recall it's freaky. 21:17:31 return value in register or something? 21:17:54 Also, second project queued up: Windows 9x WebKit browser that doesn't suck. 21:17:58 I have had it with these browsers! 21:18:10 Can barely... bare... them. 21:18:11 "The stdcall[1] calling convention is a variation on the pascal calling convention in which parameters are passed on the stack, pushed right-to-left. Registers EAX, ECX, and EDX are designated for use within the function. Return values are stored in the EAX register. The callee is responsible for cleanup of the stack." 21:18:18 according to wikipedia 21:18:28 Yeah, but AnMaster, they do varargs stdcall. 21:18:31 I'm not joking. 21:18:34 The Win32API actually has that. 21:18:38 err how? 21:18:41 I don't know. 21:18:46 It's some crazy horrifying trick. 21:18:53 right to left. No it shouldn't be an issue 21:18:57 the cleanup however would be 21:19:00 quite an issue 21:19:05 Where's the first argument, though? 21:19:13 Ask ais523; he's more acquainted with the unmentionable horror. 21:19:39 I don't know the details of Windows calling conventions 21:19:49 except that they make your programs nonportable by forcing you to specify them all the time 21:19:55 with keywords non-Windows compilers don't accept 21:20:53 Pretty sure if you're using the Windows API you're non-portable anyway. 21:20:54 ais523, doesn't the headers specify them already? and for exported API just do: #define PLATFORM_EXPORT_FUNC to the __dllspec(whatever) stuff and so on 21:21:01 ehird95, well yes 21:21:10 Okay, time to dive in to the WinMain(). 21:21:21 ehird95, RIP ehird95 21:21:25 AnMaster: things like callbacks you have to define yourself 21:21:27 Fitts, version 1: a graphical Win32 program that exits immediately after it starts. Go. 21:21:34 and with particular keyboard conventions 21:21:44 AnMaster: Quite. 21:22:17 ais523, btw cfunge doesn't use standard calling convention on x86 either. After profiling I found that using the gcc __attribute__ to use register passing saved *quite* a bit on 32-bit x86 21:22:32 Hmm, a Windows 9x-native WebKit browser might be quite... interesting; seeing as I'm pretty sure on Windows your toolkit options are GTK and Qt. 21:22:34 only applies to internal functions of course 21:22:50 (Chrome uses their own port of WebKit to Windows, but Chrome is XP/Vista/7 only, so.) 21:22:57 AnMaster: cfunge isn't meant to be portable C when the extreme-x86 options are turned on 21:23:04 and I'm glad you're doing it as a portable/nonportable polyglot 21:23:28 So I'm pretty sure I'd have to rewrite every single widget call in WebKit to use Win32. 21:23:32 ais523, actually not an option. It is always used if 1) GCC is detected 2) 32-bit x86 is 21:23:52 ehird95, GTK for windows? Or is that not 9x either? 21:24:12 ais523, but never otherwise. 21:24:13 AnMaster: Well, there's Qt for Windows too, but they're both Not Actually Native(TM). 21:24:24 Both use the actual widgets, iirc, but the total construction is off. 21:24:24 ehird95, QT on windows looks good though 21:24:31 Yes, looks, at a glance. 21:24:43 ehird95, "for extended usage" I mean 21:24:47 I can guarantee you there are many subtle warts vs the platform, just like in OS X. 21:25:18 ehird95, nothing I noticed. But I'm quite happy with gimp on OS X apart from the whole "X11 starting" bit 21:25:29 and I'm fine with mixed KDE and GTK too 21:25:55 You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? 21:25:58 Still looks fugly though. 21:25:59 lets see my desktop.... KDE3... GTK apps not set to KDE like theme but just old style very rectangular theme 21:26:18 But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... 21:26:24 You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? <-- yes, but not when I last used OS X 21:26:28 because it simply doesn't integrate one bit; it's the polar opposite 21:26:36 But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... <-- no I didn't say it fits well 21:26:40 ah. 21:27:13 I just said: I have no problems with it not fitting well 21:27:13 which is quite different 21:27:13 I can *see* it doesn't fit 21:27:13 but it just doesn't bother me much 21:27:20 more than gimp does *anywhere* I mean 21:27:22 int WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow) 21:27:28 Jesus lord mother of fucking goddamn shitting christ. 21:27:38 ehird95, where is the pointer to the struct 21:27:41 Holy cow, that's some function prototype for a goddamn main function. 21:27:41 and what is the instance stuff 21:27:52 Instance is the application instance; i.e. your process, sorta. 21:27:57 hPrevInstance is NULL. 21:28:06 lpCmdLine is your command line arguments, except they all come as one string. 21:28:10 nCmdShow is I have no fucking idea. 21:28:15 WINAPI expands to stdcall. 21:28:20 ehird95, int main(void), int main(argc, argv), int main(argc, argv, envp) are the ones I know of on POSIX 21:28:28 hPrevInstance is NULL. <-- wait what? 21:28:35 AnMaster: Backwards compatibility. 21:28:40 oh damn 21:28:48 This is why back compat evil. :) 21:28:51 *compat is evil 21:29:01 ehird95, how comes POSIX doesn't have so many visible backward compat warts 21:29:09 I know of only a few 21:29:11 very few 21:29:27 Because POSIX is a million times less popular. 21:29:47 And basically no consumers use it, thus all the apps are mainly business, backend stuff, etc. 21:29:51 Which tends to be less shit. 21:29:57 But only slightly. 21:30:25 heh 21:31:42 * ehird95 adds a search box to SeaMonkey with MonkeyMenu. Yaaaay. 21:31:44 Less people do really truly awful things to POSIX. And people are much less bitchy when stuff breaks on POSIX systems. 21:32:00 That's... About it. 21:32:36 wikipedia on AMD64 calling convention: "The calling convention of the AMD64 application binary interface is followed on Linux and other non-Microsoft operating systems. The registers RDI, RSI, RDX, RCX, R8 and R9 are used for integer and pointer arguments while XMM0, XMM1, XMM2, XMM3, XMM4, XMM5, XMM6 and XMM7 are used for floating point arguments. As in the Microsoft x64 calling convention, additiona 21:32:36 l arguments are pushed onto the stack and the return value is stored in RAX." 21:32:38 sigh 21:32:47 would help if it was actually accurate 21:32:47 which it isn't 21:33:18 basically. Small structs are also passed in registers 21:36:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_style worst wp article ever 21:37:39 someone got into the edit page and thought "I'm going to explain EVERY NUANCE to everyone who reads this article! They'll be so pleased that I've accurately documented the facts and subtleties of every single facet of programming style. Hey, what does it matter if half of them only apply to curly brace languages? What does it matter if I should be describing the basic elements because it's an encyclopedia? Whoopdihey!" 21:38:01 21:42:39 The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. 21:42:42 *Watcom 21:42:51 what do you think of the term "an eightbyte"? 21:43:07 to quote AMD64 ABI: 21:43:09 Within this specification, the term byte refers to a 8-bit object, the term twobyte 21:43:09 refers to a 16-bit object, the term fourbyte refers to a 32-bit object, the term 21:43:09 eightbyte refers to a 64-bit object, and the term sixteenbyte refers to a 128-bit 21:43:09 object.1 21:43:15 quite unusual 21:43:36 (the 1 there is a footnote btw) 21:43:40 Heh. 21:43:46 Hey, my first Win32 program just executed. 21:43:50 I feel my soul dripping away. 21:43:54 Well, second. 21:43:59 I executed a nop a few times before that. 21:44:07 #include 21:44:07 int WINAPI WinMain( 21:44:07 HINSTANCE hInstance, 21:44:07 HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, 21:44:07 LPSTR lpCmdLine, 21:44:08 * ais523 looks at http://www.html-protector.com/encrypt/sample.html 21:44:08 int nCmdShow) 21:44:10 { 21:44:12 MessageBox(NULL, "Hello, world!", "Hello", MB_OK); 21:44:14 return 0; 21:44:16 } 21:44:18 The boilerplate stings. 21:44:27 it's much worse if you want to actually open a window 21:44:38 rather than just sit in the background without an associated window 21:44:40 The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. <-- why are you using that one? 21:44:40 Please, let the tutorial break the horror into me. 21:44:43 and how does it look? 21:45:22 ais523, "To display this page you need a browser with JavaScript support."? 21:45:23 AnMaster: Because I'm using Open Watcom, and it looks like it was designed for Windows 3.1. Subwindows up the wazoo, button-style toolbar icons, small (like in Mosaic), the editor/debugger/etc are all different programs, so you have to switch to another big-window-with-subwindows to do things like make and run. 21:45:30 Also, all the icons are 16x16, 16-color affairs. 21:45:39 AnMaster: look at the source 21:45:51 And the editor's status line actually uses black Win 3.1-font (dunno what it's called) upon dark teal. 21:45:55 It is rather unreadable. 21:46:10 basically, they have a bunch of JS on the page that they claim will make it impossible to open the page without a password, or in a "less-restricted" browser like Mozilla 21:46:19 and even people who can open the page can't see its HTML, or even retrieve it from cache 21:46:20 However, it's convenient; it autoindents, syntax highlights and it also handles writing a build script for me. 21:46:27 it's like one of those right-click-block scripts on steroids 21:46:31 ais523, seems like a trivial to break encryption? 21:46:34 it is 21:46:40 Which is good, because these are the commands it executes: 21:46:41 (sec) 21:46:44 so incredibly trivial that I thought people here would be amused by it 21:46:57 ais523, it's just url encoding right? 21:47:02 for most part 21:47:06 21:47:08 AnMaster: yes, it is 21:47:09 not sure where the hp_d00 is 21:47:19 eval(unescape('%68%70%5F%6F%6B%3D%74%72%75%65%3B%66%75%6E%63%74%69%6F%6E%20%68%70%5F%64%30%30%28%73%29%7B%69%66%28%21%68%70%5F%6F%6B%29%72%65%74%75%72%6E%3B%64%6F%63%75%6D%65%6E%74%2E%77%72%69%74%65%28%73%29%7D')) 21:47:19 hm 21:47:20 what is that bit 21:47:35 maybe it defines the hp_d00 function 21:47:36 eval(unescape('hp_ok=true;function hp_d00(s){if(!hp_ok)return;document.write(s)}')) 21:47:43 err 21:47:44 I ran the source of the page through LeetKey 21:47:45 hp_ok? 21:47:46 what 21:47:49 :D 21:47:49 which is an underestimated Firefox plugin 21:47:59 ais523, what does leetkey do? 21:48:09 it was originally designed to parse 1337-speak into something more readable 21:48:15 AnMaster: The reason I'm using the Open Watcom IDE is because it writes the Makefile (or equivalent) to run these commands without me getting near anything nearly as horrifying: 21:48:16 cd C:\Code\Fitts 21:48:16 wmake -f C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.mk -h -e C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.exe 21:48:16 wcc386 Fitts.c -i="C:\WATCOM/h;C:\WATCOM/h/nt" -w4 -e25 -zq -od -d2 -6r -bt=nt -fo=.obj -mf 21:48:16 wlink name Fitts d all SYS nt_win op m op maxe=25 op q op symf @Fitts.lk1 21:48:20 but a lot more filters got added to it over time 21:48:33 That's to compile one trivial C file into a Win32 graphical executable with Open Wacom. 21:48:36 so it does things like ROT13ing and URLencode/decoding etc 21:48:40 ehird95, why not use MSVC or something? 21:48:51 AnMaster: 1. Windows 95 2. $$$ 21:48:55 also, "source code thiefs"? 21:49:08 ais523: it means people who INFRINGE THE COPYRIGHT of your code! 21:49:10 ehird95, MSDNAA doesn't seem to have such old MSVC 21:49:10 for one, that should be "thieves", for two, I doubt they really exist in large numbers 21:49:25 ehird95, oh I think I may have an old old copy of MSVC++ 6.0 or something 21:49:29 I keep mentally muddling MSDNAA with MPAA and RIAA 21:49:31 speaking of "thieves", their site pops up a fake dialog using OS X Tiger's window widgets 21:49:32 probably pro 21:49:33 they shouldn't have picked a similar naming scheme 21:49:34 ais523, :D 21:49:38 isn't that, you know, just as illegal? 21:49:45 ehird95: who knows 21:50:05 AnMaster: was that an offer? I'm not exactly sure MSVC++ will be less horrific than this, but... 21:50:08 "Retrieve this page from your cache... It %65xpires IMMEDIATELY!" 21:50:19 ais523: :D 21:50:23 I wonder why the URLdecode failed there? maybe it was double-encoded in the original... 21:50:33 ehird95, it is an entire cd. if I can find it. Slow uplink. So probably not an offer as such 21:50:48 also, I'm surprised that they thought of disabling cache (which means your own server gets hammered), but not of people just using view source and URL-decoding it 21:50:50 plus it would be... you know. ileegal? 21:50:51 AnMaster: Also, the commands for MSVC++ are probably as horrific. 21:50:53 illegal* 21:50:54 and 21:51:05 piracy? illegal? 21:51:05 also, first time I've seen a page deliberately coded to /not/ work in Firefox 21:51:06 it sucks at standard compliance 21:51:07 you. don't. say 21:51:16 AnMaster: actually downloading copyrighted material is legal in sweden iirc 21:51:18 not sure about uploading 21:51:24 ehird95, yeah, it is bleeding edge research I know 21:51:24 ... 21:51:36 ehird95, um uploading is, But not downloading 21:51:36 iirc 21:51:43 which forbids bittorrent 21:51:47 AnMaster: that's bizarrely backwards 21:51:48 since you upload too there 21:51:54 ehird95, oh and I think using it is 21:52:00 why is providing copyrighted material legal, but downloading it isn't? 21:52:17 ehird95, yep. It's like "selling sex isn't forbidden, buying sex is" 21:52:35 copyrighted content: substitute for sex! 21:52:41 hah 21:53:47 http://weichhold.com/wp-content/gallery/misc/vc6_0.png ;; MSVC++ 6 seems to be a little prettier and less cluttered and has the advantage of being in one window 21:53:56 otoh, I don't need any of that file browser stuff since this thing is one file 21:54:04 and pirating it would probably take decades 21:54:05 ais523, how on earth would that site prevent cache and such even on MSIE? 21:54:11 plus, eh, why not support FOSS :P 21:54:21 I think there's anti-cache stuff in the headers 21:54:21 ehird95, is that open watcom FOSS? 21:54:21 AnMaster: set it to be outdated immediately 21:54:34 AnMaster: it's the open-sourced continuation of the famous Watcom compiler 21:54:43 ehird95, ah 21:54:45 since 2003 21:54:59 Doom, Descent, Magic Carpet, System Shock, Fast Attack, Atomic Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D are among well known games that were compiled with Watcom C.[1] 21:55:02 can't be too bad, eh 21:55:07 doubt they used the ide though :) 21:56:05 ehird95, screenshot of IDE? 21:56:15 sure. 21:57:41 There's the text-based Watcom IDE too; that's the only one I've used. 21:58:35 screenshot'd; uploading 21:58:53 you can't really feel the 3.1ness without using it, oh well 21:59:08 at least the window decorations and task bar should make you feel the windows 95ness :) 21:59:27 ehird95, I only used windows 3.1 once. For a few minutes. 21:59:35 So I couldn't ever feel windows3.1-ness 21:59:49 http://imgur.com/v729P.png (the commands at the end of the source file are just me typing out the build log) 22:00:20 ehird95, the background picture doesn't look windows-95-ish 22:00:23 at all 22:00:33 yeah, that's because i set it myself 22:00:43 too large res for it 22:00:44 too many colours 22:00:57 ehird95, doesn't fit with the environment at ALL 22:01:12 ehird95, also it feels 3.1ish. The icons do that is 22:01:17 and the three view 22:01:19 The window decorations are pretty much invisible to me after using them for a while, so everything else is fitting in with the background. 22:01:32 Green is underrepresented in 95, anyway. 22:01:44 ehird95, why do you need green at all? :/ 22:02:18 It's a nice colour. 22:02:47 yay, /me gets nostalgia for 16-bit programs on win95 22:02:57 also, win95 font rendering 22:03:03 ugly but very easy to make out the individual characters 22:03:09 so although it was slow to read, it was pretty accurate 22:03:29 Eh, even XP ships with similar font rendering by default. 22:03:36 At larger sizes it antialiases them, though. 22:03:37 But otherwise it's identical. 22:04:17 The full background: http://imgur.com/vVBHr.png I scaled 'n cropped it from a 1680x1050 wallpaper. 22:04:30 ehird95: XP is more likely to use truetype fonts than raster ones, though 22:04:33 Technically it's a BMP on disk for Windows, but that'd just be too slow to upload and download. 22:04:44 and ouch, I remember BMP 22:04:50 Nothing wrong with BMP. 22:04:55 left-to-right, bottom-to-top, uncompressed, and with a weird header format 22:05:00 Well, okay. :P 22:05:00 Bleh, I need a Show Desktop. 22:05:08 Maybe I'll code one and add it to the top of my start menu. 22:05:08 does start-D work? 22:05:18 I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 22:05:28 Start, pause, d pops up the Documents menu. 22:05:35 Start+d does nothing. 22:05:36 I mean, chording 22:05:41 ah, ok 22:05:45 Start+R and Start, pause, R do the same thing, though. 22:05:47 (Bring up Run.) 22:05:55 also, the top of the start menu is rather a bad place to Fitt at 22:05:59 *Fitts at 22:06:08 I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 <-- the area where it an IE was in was added in 98 iirc 22:06:13 yes, but the target is big vs the system tray or a Programs menu item 22:06:20 and I don't need to access it all that often 22:06:33 gah, why can't you mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions? 22:06:41 * ais523 is still nostalgic for Program Manager 22:06:43 also what is "start"? 22:06:45 the windows key? 22:06:49 Yes. 22:06:50 yes 22:06:52 ais523: Program Manager works on 95. 22:06:52 well, super 22:06:53 right 22:06:56 I used it earlier. 22:06:56 ehird95: I know 22:07:08 It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. 22:07:11 but it doesn't load on boot 22:07:18 Anyway, you so can mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions. 22:07:27 actually, did the right mouse button do anything in win3.1? 22:07:32 except during the mouse tutorial/ 22:07:36 For instance, NT 4.0 is a rock solid OS with 95's UI, except the UI is buggy. 22:07:47 It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. <-- huh?? 22:07:53 I seem to remember it was win-M in 95. 22:07:56 I guess you could replace a good chunk of the UI straight from 95, thus getting 95-minus-meddling-plus-stability-and-sanity. 22:07:57 For "minimize all windows". 22:08:04 That works. 22:08:06 <3 fizzie 22:08:07 except during the mouse tutorial/ <-- what tutorial? 22:08:08 AnMaster: Program Manager doesn't react to right-clicks 22:08:16 AnMaster: Windows 3.1 had a mouse tutorial 22:08:19 oh? 22:08:24 because mice were new, and you didn't know how to use them 22:08:35 AnMaster: I think you were here when we linked to the youtube clip containing the mouse tutorial. 22:08:41 ais523: anyway, let's think... NT 4.0 + 95 replacement GUI parts... well, that should be able to run 2000/XP programs without too much hacking 22:08:42 ais523, what was it like though? 22:08:44 and most 95 ones 22:08:50 fizzie, maybe my client was 22:08:51 No games, though; it has anemic DirectX support. 22:08:56 I would have to grep logs on cs 22:08:56 AnMaster: to start with, you had to hover some polygons with numbers in 22:08:58 cd* 22:08:58 then click 22:09:05 then double-click, and drag, etc 22:09:13 and near the end there was a dialog box with lots of useless controls 22:09:25 ais523, how were you supposed to open this tutorial to begin with? :D 22:09:37 ais523: so, a good subset of 95+2000 apps if you're willing to do hackery, a rock solid kernel, 95's UI (plus any additions you want as long as they play fine with NT)... 22:09:45 seems like you can basically mix and match windows versions. 22:09:45 AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhG-uds0-o has the win3.1 mouse tutorial; I remember that; it's the awesome, it's like this skill test "click here" "click there" "wow!" 22:09:55 AnMaster: I don't know, for all I know it was shown on first boot 22:10:02 Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. 22:10:03 :( 22:10:10 I actually can't remember a computer without a mouse 22:10:18 this is due to growing up in a mac family 22:10:27 Nothing wrong with mice 22:10:28 even that old apple classic had a mouse 22:10:34 my first computer was a BBC Micro B, which didn't have a mouse 22:10:45 Let's see if Flash 10 wants to install on Windows 95, attempt two??? 22:10:45 although it had a floppy disk drive, rather than the more usual tape 22:10:47 ais523, yes but you are old ;P 22:10:53 not that old 22:10:55 ais523: basically as old as the dinosaurs! 22:11:06 if I were old, it would have been punched cards or paper tape 22:11:08 or wires 22:11:18 Or paper wires, or punched wires. 22:11:23 * AnMaster wonders if that idioms exists in English 22:11:31 "wet behind the ears" 22:11:37 for someone young and inexperienced 22:11:48 Yes. 22:11:54 ah so not just a Swedish idiom then 22:12:13 Well, Flash 9 is the latest for 98/ME; let's hope it'll pretend I'm 95. 22:12:27 It exists also in Finnish, except it's just "märkäkorva", lit. translated as "wet-ear". 22:12:42 fizzie, yeah but Finnish is strange :P 22:12:46 oh btw we should ask oerjan 22:12:52 Unsupported operating system nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 22:12:53 oerjan, do you remember punch cards? 22:12:54 NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu 22:12:57 dfjkgnklsgjljgjklsdf 22:12:58 ahem 22:13:01 ehird95, flash 7 or 8? 22:13:17 flash 9, which is one behind the latest version 22:13:21 we'll see if flash 9 does 95. 22:13:22 erm 22:13:25 we'll see if flash 8 does 95. 22:13:30 but I think youtube uses flash 9 these days... 22:13:40 THOSE 98 USERS GET ALL THE CHICKS^WYOUTUBE 22:13:42 and us 95ers 22:13:43 all alone 22:13:45 cold 22:13:47 weary 22:13:52 without rick astley 22:14:03 ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. 22:14:08 * ehird95 sniff 22:14:29 fizzie: I'd bet about 30% on being able to use setver with Windows. 22:14:45 sweet, setver is for every executable 22:14:49 so... setvar win.exe? :D 22:15:09 It'll still only affect the MS-DOS version number, is my guess. 22:15:24 D'aww. 22:15:42 There's a different numbering there, after all. 22:16:00 Since it was already at dos 7 in win95. 22:16:23 * ehird95 runs flashp8 22:16:23 flicker 22:16:24 done 22:16:29 i read something about seamonkey 22:16:34 in that dialog 22:16:36 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:16:41 WELL 22:16:42 time to investigate 22:16:47 windows. cursor. tutorial CLICK 22:17:05 Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. 22:17:09 MAYBE IF I'D RESTART IT. 22:17:44 "After installing the plugin, click here." Big box. 22:17:58 Opens the swf in a popup. 22:17:58 Heh. 22:18:37 ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. <-- sensible? 22:18:49 whoosh 22:19:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:19:11 why is there no flash player 8 uninstaller. 22:19:30 ehird95, oh? 22:19:38 well it wasn't wrapped ina proper installer 22:19:38 SO 22:19:42 i guess oldversion are peddling in 22:19:42 um 22:19:45 peddlable goods 22:19:50 eh? 22:19:53 that are not the full... bodied... legitimacy of a full installer. 22:19:55 * AnMaster googles that 22:19:56 extracted, as it were. 22:20:06 No definitions were found for peddlable. 22:20:10 what? 22:20:22 and thusly, it may be so that lacking their surrounding installer framework, instead being a lowly detect-browser-and-copy 22:20:35 they neglected to set up such uninstallable facilities, for my enjoyment, esquire, poppycock, cheesecake. 22:20:36 Did you mean: define:peddleable No definitions were found for peddleable. 22:20:37 right 22:20:39 AND 22:20:39 no help either 22:20:40 THUS 22:20:47 ehird95, so what did that word mean? 22:20:58 Able to be peddled, I would guess, even without an official definition. 22:21:08 fizzie, what is "peddled" then 22:21:09 hm 22:21:22 :iiam: 22:21:25 "A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, cheapjack, monger, or solicitor (with negative connotations since the 16th ..." 22:21:27 mhm 22:21:49 "solicitor"? some sort of lawyer? 22:21:51 :iiaamif: 22:22:03 "S: (v) peddle, monger, huckster, hawk, vend, pitch (sell or offer for sale from place to place)" 22:22:06 (wordnet) 22:22:10 aah 22:22:54 I guess they're not "selling" in a strictly literal sense, but anyway. 22:23:05 var swfUrl = canPlayV9Swf() 22:23:07 version nine only 22:23:16 youtube on windows 95 = impossible 22:23:17 SAD :( 22:23:38 The internets have some uses of "peddlable" in the "can be done with a pedal" sense too, but I doubt that's it. 22:24:25 even flash 8 doesn't work on 95 22:24:26 woe 22:24:26 is 22:24:29 betide 22:24:30 unto 22:24:30 me 22:24:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 22:25:06 thought: does Wine run on Windows 95? 22:25:11 Did DS work? 22:25:14 you could use it to run more recent Windows programs on older versions 22:25:59 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:00 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:01 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:02 -!- mtve has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:05 -!- mtve has joined. 22:26:13 Why would WINE run on Windows? 22:26:18 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 22:26:18 -!- jix has joined. 22:26:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:26:18 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:26:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Warrigal has joined. 22:26:24 Does Wine run on Windows at all? 22:26:32 hm 22:26:35 fizzie, wouldn't make sense 22:26:40 also that is some bad lag 22:26:42 23 seconds 22:26:47 well down to 0.3 now 22:26:47 WINE runs on Cygwin. 22:26:54 And Cygwin 1.5 supports 95. 22:26:55 But really now. 22:27:00 heh, Wine compiles under Cygwin but doesn't run there? 22:27:01 Sgeo: For the lulz, I guess. 22:27:04 it runs there. 22:27:10 wine and cygwin both run under each other 22:27:12 PCLinuxOS looks very attractive 22:27:15 pclinuxos is shit 22:27:16 also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit 22:27:19 fizzie, you could use colinux first 22:27:19 then wine 22:27:27 Actually, it's just that Cygwin no longer runs on Windows 95. 22:27:27 of course not on windows 9x 22:27:31 first, it's based on mandriva, which is basically the archetypical bad linux distro 22:27:33 pretty much only xp iirc 22:27:41 second, it's less popular than mandriva so doesn't even have the community 22:27:41 not sure about newer windows versions 22:27:42 Alternately: you could maybe just use the Wine DLLs on Win 95. 22:27:42 PCLinuxOS : Linux :: Windows Vista : Windows ? 22:27:50 third, it offers nothing even over mandriva 22:27:57 fizzie: Yes. 22:27:58 in conclusion, it's the only possible way to make mandriva worse :P 22:28:14 some programs run better under Wine then under native Windows 22:28:29 Can I get PCLinuxOS styles for Ubuntu? 22:28:36 Sgeo: they're just kde styles. 22:28:39 so no. 22:28:48 I have KDE on this Ubuntu system 22:28:53 When KDE works well on Ubuntu, I'll try it 22:28:59 you have kubuntu, presumably, ais523 22:29:02 Last time I tried, things were crashtastic 22:29:03 no 22:29:03 as in, kubuntu-dekstop 22:29:05 *desktop 22:29:07 almost 22:29:16 I have most of its dependencies, but not the package itself 22:29:18 well, the packages come from kubuntu, anyway 22:29:30 so i don't think that system running that kde is really not-kubuntu 22:29:39 wow, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_Unshackled is linked from Wikipedia 22:29:47 What's wrong with Mandriva ? 22:29:55 oerjan: looks like your creation is getting attention 22:30:08 Sgeo: firstly, it's over-commercialised 22:30:11 also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit 22:30:12 err 22:30:12 s/ $// 22:30:14 you are back 22:30:14 ? 22:30:22 and thus mostly based around their company and the branding mandriva 22:30:31 seconldy 22:30:32 *secondly 22:30:33 -!- Guest19311 has changed nick to Cerise. 22:30:34 AnMaster: yes 22:30:37 nobody who knows linux uses mandriva 22:30:40 for a bit it was just me and pikhq 22:30:42 But PCLinuxOS presumably doesn't inherit commercialization from Mandriva 22:30:42 ais523, "were" not "are" 22:30:46 thirdly, its desktop is basically juts kde 4 22:30:48 so what's the damn point 22:30:51 ais523, when you said that you had been back for over a minute 22:30:52 it's just yet another crappy distro 22:31:03 AnMaster: coming back from the netsplit made me lag 22:31:07 Sgeo: considering pclinuxos = mandriva with a different logo, sure it does. 22:31:10 hm true 22:31:13 probably because I was in #nethack at the time and there were hundreds of join messages to send 22:31:32 the question isn't what's wrong with mandriva although it can certainly be answered, the question is what on earth does it have over ubuntu? 22:31:34 According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows 22:31:36 well I know how it is after a netsplit 22:31:46 ehird95, looking sexy out of the box? 22:31:46 often you end up splitting due to full queues 22:31:50 ubuntu has a huge, huge, HUGE community, is making advances in usability, ... 22:31:53 on the *server send* side 22:32:00 which is very annoying 22:32:11 Sgeo: I guess you just sit at your computer drooling all day instead of using it, but FWIW 9.10's default theme is appealing. 22:32:32 Ooh, Mandriva doesn't even use yum. 22:32:39 That's gotta hurt. 22:32:52 what package manager? 22:32:56 raw RPM, somehow? 22:33:06 ehird95, that made as much sense to me as "Debian doesn't even use rpm" 22:33:23 ais523: their very own wrapper over rpm 22:33:24 Hm, I guess yum is a thingy that works over rpm? That makes more sense 22:33:26 According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows <-- why are some of the UI elements on there translated to Swedish for me??? 22:33:37 AnMaster: moinmoin does that. 22:33:50 ah that explains it 22:33:53 (moinmoin, n. means "shitty wiki software" in hawaiian) 22:33:54 it is like two ones 22:34:08 from the word "moin", "shitty", and the word "moin", "wiki software". 22:34:19 "Sök" and "Innehåll" oh and a third one: "senast redigerad 22:34:20 " 22:34:22 great 22:34:26 those are: 22:34:42 search, TOC and "last edited" 22:35:51 oerjan, do you remember punch cards? <-- i vaguely recall there may have been some in the telecom building where my dad worked/works, back in the late 70s/early 80s. 22:36:02 "I would not call Clue (as well as Self BCT) a language, rather a machine with a complex behavior." --Oleg on a language just as valid as BCT 22:36:14 Oleg should really shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about... 22:37:26 who is this "oleg"? Sure I seen the name elsewhere 22:37:33 it's not that oleg. 22:37:36 in some other idiot context 22:37:43 ehird95, what "oleg"? 22:37:43 oleg 1 is on the esolang wiki 22:37:54 oleg being an anagram for lego? 22:38:00 oleg 2 is the uber-master-god of type systems, scheme, haskell and ocaml and he is smarter than you, full stop 22:38:12 oleg 2 is of http://okmij.org/ftp/ 22:38:21 he is awesome. 22:38:29 ehird95, and which of these ie the oleg that should shut up? 22:38:32 the oleg 1? 22:38:35 yah 22:39:25 ais523: yay 22:39:41 whoa this is some good music that was added to wesnoth since last I checked (about a month or two ago= 22:39:43 Oleg 2's code makes my head hurt 22:39:44 s/=/)/ 22:40:06 oleg should change his name to that, Oleg 2 22:40:12 so cyberpunk. 22:40:18 Someone gave me a command to download the Wesnoth music some time ago, but I forgot it :( 22:40:53 Sgeo, svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music 22:41:04 ty 22:41:15 * AnMaster is listening to "northern_mountains.ogg" atm 22:41:16 really great 22:41:32 probably ehird95 wouldn't like it 22:41:45 I have some Windows SVN thingy installed, so I'll just use that 22:42:35 Sgeo, it may take some time. the whole checkout dir is 245 MB. So half of that size need to be download (yeah svn doesn't even store the pristine copies compressed or anything...) 22:42:38 Why is this thing telling me 0 Bytes/sec 22:42:57 here we go 22:43:19 How often do they add music? 22:43:26 every second. 22:43:34 ais523: does enigma work in 9x? 22:43:37 Sgeo, varies. sometimes a few months, sometimes three in a single week 22:43:42 ehird95: I don't know 22:44:05 "windows 95 and later", according to the website 22:44:09 Sgeo, anyway, it grows overall slowly 22:44:20 try http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/Enigma-1.01.exe 22:44:25 "The operating system I currently use on my primary computer is Windows 95 OSR2. Furthermore, not only do I use Windows 95 extensively, but I prefer it to Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, and Vista." 22:44:31 So that makes 2 to 4 of them. 22:44:32 ais523, berlios eww 22:44:48 ehird95, "them"? 22:44:48 Crazy, these people. 22:44:50 Fun, but crazy. 22:44:51 How can Win98 be better than Win95? 22:44:56 well, that's where it's hosted, do you want me to magic it somewhere else? 22:44:57 erm, other way 22:45:05 Sgeo: The same way 98 can be better than ME. 22:45:06 How can 95 be better than 98 in anyone's eyes? 22:45:11 ais523, no of course not 22:45:13 the only good thing about Windows 98 compared to 95 is USB support 22:45:15 although, that is a big one 22:45:19 98 replaced the beautiful, usable 95 Explorer with 98's bloated shitfest IEcrap explorer 22:45:26 added a bunch of unstable IE ""integration"" 22:45:30 usb support 22:45:30 ais523, did windows95 even support usb at all? 22:45:31 and nothing else 22:45:35 you can get usb support for win95 22:45:36 AnMaster: no 22:45:40 just a simple double-click away 22:45:43 ehird95: ah, I didn't know that 22:45:43 ais523, external drivers? 22:45:47 it certainly wasn't out-of-the-box 22:45:50 there are tons of drivers, yeah 22:45:52 simple to install 22:46:02 anyway, AnMaster: them = people who use Windows 95 as a main OS and aren't hermits 22:46:05 ehird95, doubt it would be very well integrated? 22:46:07 It was in Win 95B. 22:46:13 AnMaster: it's integrated just fine 22:46:20 as in, able to handle all device classes and such 22:46:22 pikhq: 95B is with the stupid IE Explorer-replacement iirc 22:46:27 * Sgeo wonders if anyone still uses Win3.1 as a primary OS 22:46:28 OSR 2.5 did that 22:46:29 ehird95: Yes. 22:46:31 ehird95, replacement? 22:46:33 how? 22:46:35 OSR 2 is the last real 95 22:46:37 AnMaster: think 98's 22:46:40 oh 22:46:40 98's explorer = IE 22:46:44 95's explorer = <3 22:46:52 OSR 2.5 = IE explorer = not really 95 any more 22:46:57 ais523: that berlios isn't loading 22:47:06 ehird95: ugh 22:47:18 ais523: that berlios isn't loading <-- guess why I said "eww" about berlios? 22:47:20 try navigating from the directory? 22:47:23 supertux used to be hosted there 22:47:27 I know how horrible it is 22:47:34 and lots of downtime too 22:47:39 how good is supertux? 22:47:50 supertux is a fairly sundry mario clone 22:47:56 it's nice if you like mario clones. 22:48:01 ais523, hm? try it yourself. Not really working active on it any more 22:48:09 I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. 22:48:15 ais523: wat 22:48:22 The nice thing about Windows 95 is that you can run it wonderfully without any IE at all 22:48:25 just picking a random comment out of context 22:48:36 You can't use .chms, sure, but how many are there in 95? Barely any. You can't use Outlook, thank god. 22:48:47 But everything else just works, including modern Word versions. 22:48:51 There were some custom very messy USB drivers in addition to the OSR 2 USB support. And I think that didn't include mass storage support by default, you had to use a third-party generic-enough driver for that. Could be wrong, though. 22:49:03 ehird95, what about DS? 22:49:27 Sgeo: Docking station? It requires IE, I believe, although the DLLs I might still have from that stupid IE 4 installation I tried might still be there. 22:49:28 fungot: hi 22:49:29 ais523: despite sleeping in to 5:16. 22:49:29 Link me up, scotty. 22:49:49 ehird95, you need another link to DS? 22:49:52 Yep. 22:49:58 ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm 22:50:08 If it does work, then it's just a matter of putting the relevant IE 4 DLL next to DS (so you don't have IE 4 crap in your system). 22:50:15 Remind me to slap everyone who works for Wikia 22:50:26 Sgeo 22:50:28 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C 22:50:30 slap everyone who works for wikia 22:51:05 seamonkey illegal operation shutdown awesome! 22:51:07 That's a first. 22:51:29 what's #esoteric's opinion on Wikia, by the way 22:51:34 I need to know whether to like it or hate it 22:51:37 I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. <-- context please 22:52:03 AnMaster: someone making the hello world a link to a youtube video when publishing a hello world on a website 22:52:13 AnMaster: Wikia are, simply, evil 22:52:17 ais523, the Creatures wiki's opinion is hate it. They added junk to outgoing links, forcing most wikis to use a certain ad-filled theme 22:52:19 erm 22:52:20 ais523 22:52:40 junk to outgoing links? 22:52:47 And took the creatureswiki.com domain name for themselves 22:52:54 ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm <-- as usual 22:53:01 ais523: Wikia, for instance, fragment communities that want to split off because of their insistence on having about 5 ads per page (I'm not exaggerating) and forcing you to use the new, unusable Monaco theme. They say they want to split off, Wikia say: "You have fun. We won't have any links to you and we'll keep the wikia going." 22:53:13 ais523: And, that whole thing with the snatching creatureswiki.com and holding it from them. 22:53:15 ais523, yeah http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/ 22:53:20 ais523, you know how some websites have a redirect thing? They do that, so they can display ads when someone goes to an outbound link 22:53:23 nice status monitor 22:53:23 ehird95: I know that Wikia is one of the few sites that I cannot cope with visiting with Epiphany 22:53:26 I need AdBlock 22:53:26 wish sf.net had it 22:53:37 to bear to look at the thing 22:53:38 Wikia are one of the shittiest companies in existence; they have no empathy. 22:53:42 the ads are really obnoxious 22:53:43 with berlios you can at least know that there are stuff that is brken 22:53:45 broken* 22:53:50 At least they could be opaque about their evil-for-profit like Microsot. 22:54:09 AnMaster: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com 22:54:14 you're welcome 22:54:22 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/sourceforge.net 22:54:24 bookmark it :P 22:54:27 * AnMaster looks 22:54:46 ehird95, doesn't work. Maybe javascript? 22:54:51 ais523, ehird95 gave a very good explanation of what wikia's doing 22:55:00 The front page uses JS. 22:55:05 The inner pages don't. 22:55:07 ah 22:55:09 So just append the domain to the URL. 22:55:40 ehird95, anyway doesn't help to answer "is svn on foo down"? or "is ssh down"? 22:55:44 ehird95: that is a good site, although with an annoyingly long domain name 22:55:51 I tried about:blank with it, though, and it got confused 22:56:03 well, it tried to URL-encode the colon 22:56:04 which for the only berlios site that is *NEVER* down, is rather nicely displayed on http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/ 22:56:09 then said it didn't look like a website 22:56:35 ais523, edge case... 22:56:44 and not an important one at all 22:56:45 AnMaster, calling out ais523 for reporting on an edge case failure 22:56:49 and calling it not important WHAT 22:56:52 WHAT IS THIS UNIVERSE 22:56:55 it is scary and new to me 22:57:00 this is rather out-of-character for AnMaster... 22:57:02 WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE REAL ANMASTER?! 22:57:06 ehird95, of course there are important edge cases too 22:57:13 Are you an abducting alien or something?! 22:57:14 but this is just plain silly 22:57:17 Give him back! 22:57:20 ...actually, keep him. 22:57:23 I could get used to this. 22:57:24 so it fits nicely with this channel kind of 22:57:45 stop making my laugh so loud that I wake up people sleeping in the next room! 22:57:47 :P 22:57:48 * oerjan adds a {{fact}} tag to wp's Malbolge article 22:58:00 oerjan, why? 22:58:45 AnMaster: me making you laugh? 22:58:50 ok, you're *definitely* not AnMaster 22:58:57 ehird95, ais too 22:59:03 well, yes, but that's not odd 22:59:25 ehird95 and yes, why did you turn funny suddenly 22:59:37 ... 22:59:43 have we all been abducted 22:59:44 right, like 22:59:45 we're aliens 22:59:50 we abducted people in here 22:59:54 I abducted ehird95, for instance 22:59:59 then we wiped our brains to make us think we're them 23:00:14 I can think of no other simpler explanation. Occam's razor, I win. 23:00:56 I think I'm acting in-character for me 23:01:04 but I may be wrong, of course 23:01:09 yes, we had to put in a joke for ourselves, naturally 23:01:20 it makes perfect sense; what's the point of being just bewildered? 23:01:27 maybe we've never been amused before and this was the only way we had a chance. 23:02:05 ehird95, this is rather in-character of you now ehird95 23:02:10 well of ehird at least 23:02:15 not sure about the 95 bit 23:02:31 but yeah the occasional "weird OS" is normal for you 23:02:32 I'd ask if I'm acting in-character, but the question itself would be in-character 23:02:42 Sgeo, :D 23:02:52 Sgeo: :D 23:02:58 that was actually rather funny 23:03:02 unusually so for you 23:03:18 also unusually insightful 23:03:43 yeah he is usually pretty outsightful 23:03:58 so I would say: By not asking, and observing that, you are not atcing in-character 23:04:06 My brain hurts. 23:04:08 AnMaster: because i would very much like someone to provide a citation for it ;) 23:04:12 ehird95, why? 23:04:17 THIS IS TOO CONFUSING :P 23:04:25 oerjan, citation for what? 23:04:32 oh that 23:04:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:04:34 far up there 23:04:36 right 23:04:57 ehird95, ok that is not normal behaviour for you when things are too confusing. 23:04:58 :P 23:05:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:06 The sad thing is, I wasn't intending to be funny. I really was considering asking 23:06:40 I wonder why there is no TCO label on my notebook. There is on my desktop monitor and some other stuff like my keyboard 23:07:04 * oerjan is reading irc in spurts, so answers are a bit delayed 23:07:05 All I can think of when I see "TC0" is "THAC0" 23:07:12 total cost of ownership? 23:07:21 ais523, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification 23:07:27 * oklofog is reading irc without thinking, so answers are a bit incomprehensible 23:07:37 almost *every* computer monitor have one of those stickers 23:07:37 Also, misreading O and 0 23:07:40 oklofog: that's banana! 23:07:40 as far as I have seen 23:07:41 "sure, you can get a nice free keyboard from a shady open-source hardware dealer now. BUT AT WHAT COST?" 23:07:51 ais523, eh? 23:07:56 AnMaster: FUD parody 23:08:01 ais523, eh? 23:08:22 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain 23:08:27 ...I actually understand what ais523 is saying 23:08:29 ehird95 probably knows what I mean 23:08:31 Yeah, I'm not me 23:08:35 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets 23:08:38 i'm pretty sure AnMaster is the only person going eh right now 23:08:39 -!- jix has joined. 23:08:48 ehird95, "huh" 23:09:11 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain <-- stop being ehird 23:09:20 really really out of character for you 23:09:27 -!- mycrofti1 has quit ("leaving"). 23:09:29 oklofog: nonmeasurable sets are vitali important 23:09:31 what's up with all the characters 23:09:32 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets <-- ooh interesting 23:09:32 well, ok 23:09:41 oerjan: is that a pun? 23:09:48 vaguely reminds me of a seminar I had recently 23:09:56 ais523, well what FUD was you parodying 23:09:57 someone was talking about brute-forcing infinite problems in finite time 23:10:01 well,* 23:10:14 AnMaster: basically, the theory is that if you install Linux now it'll cost you more later, in things like training costs 23:10:14 oklofog: you will have to read your homework to find out 23:10:15 AnMaster: i need to find an example of two sets A<=R, B<=R s.t. m*(A \union B) < m*(A) + m*(B) 23:10:23 and come to more than the cost of Windows altogether 23:10:28 the reading is just so i can do that 23:10:29 ais523, hah. What has it got to do with hardware? 23:10:49 ais523, anyway are you seriously suggesting you never heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification? 23:10:56 oerjan: i have read it well enough to'd remember if there were such a term :\ 23:11:01 * Sgeo hasn't heard of it until now 23:11:02 AnMaster: it hasn't, that was the joke 23:11:05 also did you like my use of "would" 23:11:11 but you missed the joke because you missed the thing it was referencing 23:11:19 ais523, oh ok. don't see why the joke was funny 23:11:20 ais523: I thought you gave up 23:11:25 well if there was such a term, in the material 23:11:38 ehird95: I ungave up after you encouraged me 23:11:46 :P 23:11:47 but really, a joke that depends on a reference you don't know will never be funny 23:11:47 wait 23:11:50 i wasn't encouraging you 23:11:52 because the explanation would ruin it 23:11:58 oerjan: actually it is mentioned 23:12:17 * oerjan cackles evilly 23:12:27 because the explanation would ruin it <-- jokes explained explained 23:12:39 of course that goes far the other way 23:12:57 but it's just a small note at the beginning of the theorem 23:14:13 http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php 23:14:28 oerjan, same level as last I looked then 23:15:09 well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... 23:15:11 * ehird95 wonders... 2000 is nt just like nt 4, and nt 4 can run 95 stuff including a good portion of the explorer-type stuff 23:15:14 so... 23:15:29 you could have the software support of 2000 with the 95 gui, almost :D 23:15:35 keyword almost... 23:15:50 well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... <-- no I don't 23:16:26 i suppose the mezzacotta main page isn't very interesting most days 23:16:44 "The Dangerous Symphony" would be a good name for an SCP 23:16:48 ehird95, I remember when "software support of 2000" was sucky relative 9x 23:16:54 reverse nowdays 23:17:05 Sgeo: it's the name of one of the Battle for Wesnoth background musics, IIRC 23:17:12 Sgeo, scp? secure copy? 23:17:15 ais523, yes, it is 23:17:18 ais523, indeed 23:17:23 AnMaster, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com 23:17:23 so basically R/Q 23:17:28 and you have it 23:17:36 ugh, I can't decide whether Wikidot or Wikia is worse 23:17:38 R/Q + axiom of choice 23:17:47 ais523: Wikidot just suck hard, they aren't actively evil 23:17:53 I wondered about that "The Dangerous Symphony" 23:17:53 very strange name 23:17:57 AnMaster: Still, XP is where it's at for software support with an even vaguely NT 4-ish system; Chrome doesn't officially support 2000, for instance (though it works if you do an offline install). 23:18:03 ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil 23:18:06 But XP+95 shell sounds very unlikely to work properly. 23:18:09 have you seen the close box on it? 23:18:10 i think it's used implicitly here... 23:18:11 ais523: no, it's just incompetent 23:18:17 wait 23:18:19 although you want to restrict it to unit interval, so (R/Z)/(Q/Z) might be more accurate 23:18:26 ehird95: the terms of service ban using CSS or anything like that to remove it 23:18:29 ais523: they're not being manipulative sociopaths to lock people in, and forcing them to put 70 ads on one page, and locking them into one theme 23:18:31 of course AoC 23:18:38 ais523, there's a close box? 23:18:39 and they're not trying to basically take people's wikis away from them 23:18:44 they're just incompetent and bad at marketing 23:18:47 ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil <--- what one? 23:18:56 Sgeo: it doesn't work 23:18:58 AnMaster, go to any wikidot wiki (like the scp-wiki) 23:19:15 instead, it's a link trying to get you to buy a paid account in order to hide the toolbar 23:19:15 ais523, I don't even SEE a close box 23:19:19 Sgeo, hm? 23:19:20 top-right 23:19:24 I'm on it 23:19:24 oerjan: or you could just use an intersection 23:19:31 can't see anything weird 23:19:36 well apart from the whole scp wiki 23:19:39 oh for the axiom of choice thing 23:19:45 also, the individual pages in it (such as the history pages and what-links-heres) are unlikable 23:19:47 AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit 23:19:48 *unlinkable 23:19:48 [22:59] can't see anything weird 23:19:48 [23:00] well apart from the whole scp wiki 23:19:48 :D 23:19:59 yeah maybe, i'm not actually reading, too tired for that, more like tasting the proof 23:20:08 ehird95, yeah I remember seeing before. 23:20:20 come to think of it, "unlikable" is also correct 23:20:20 i read it once already, but usually takes a few reads for measure theory to sink in 23:20:20 AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit <-- hm? nothing unusual? 23:20:28 Sgeo, I'm using links2 btw 23:20:30 for browser 23:20:37 ..that might explain it 23:20:54 he did that intentionally. 23:21:01 Sgeo, I can try lynx or w3m too 23:21:05 oerjan: also i am closely following in your footsteps, was the only one to get homework problems 1 & 2 done1 23:21:06 *! 23:21:12 or if you want booooooring why not konqueror? 23:21:18 not about to start firefox 23:21:31 I'd imagine it would show in konqueror 23:21:35 * ais523 watches Microsoft's Get The Facts video thing 23:21:57 although i suppose i might be following even closer if i was actually interested in the nondiscrete stuff 23:22:51 mhm 23:23:12 "append fail count to end of command line (/fail=%1%) 23:23:14 " 23:23:28 wat 23:23:30 wow is that an inflexible API 23:23:33 microscript? 23:23:44 it's some auto-run-program-on-service-error thing 23:23:51 o_O 23:24:07 Sgeo, yeah it does 23:24:18 very off colour from the rest of the browser 23:24:20 trying to explain why IIS is more reliable than CentOS 5.0 23:24:22 so doesn't really look irritating or such 23:24:36 it means Apache, they said the OS rather than the app by mistake 23:24:38 the wikidot toolbar doesn't annoy me 23:24:40 Ok, I see the Close toolbar button now 23:24:53 Sgeo, no close button here 23:24:54 in knoq 23:24:57 konq* 23:24:58 i don't see it :D 23:25:02 AnMaster, go to another page 23:25:06 ehird95: that's against the terms of service 23:25:13 seriously 23:25:17 what a ridiculous rule 23:25:19 Oh wait, maybe you need to be logged in 23:25:19 ? 23:25:23 what is against the tos 23:25:23 Sgeo, yes I'm on another one. Be aware of that javascript is turned off. 23:25:25 completely 23:25:28 i don't see any close button 23:25:30 in konq 23:25:41 ehird95: doing something to your browser to hide the toolabr 23:25:45 i didn't 23:25:45 ehird95, are you logged into Wikidot? 23:25:47 no 23:25:54 screeny? 23:25:56 Sgeo, nor am I of course 23:26:13 I don't even have an account there 23:26:33 wait, they're trying to administer CentOS through the GUI? 23:27:10 http://imgur.com/2HLgi.png 23:27:38 what's obnoxious about it 23:27:38 ah, that's better 23:27:40 i don't get the big deal. 23:27:48 they're showing a pretty clear config file 23:27:59 ehird95: breaks standard UI habit 23:28:03 it does? 23:28:05 says who 23:28:06 in that, I normally aim for the bottom toolbar 23:28:16 ??? 23:28:16 adding another one confuses me and I have to slow down 23:28:21 bottom toolbar 23:28:21 ? 23:28:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:28:39 ehird95: as in, whichever toolbar is lowest on the screen 23:28:48 because I'm trained to look for the edges of client areas 23:30:24 tab bar, for instanec 23:30:33 nobody puts tab bars on the bottom 23:30:35 making it harder to click on the tab bar is not a good thing 23:30:37 of their browser 23:30:39 ehird95: I do 23:30:46 but the wikidot toolbar is at the top 23:30:48 not the bottom 23:30:51 so how can it slow you down 23:30:56 I mean, lowest out of the things on top 23:31:00 oh 23:31:06 it's easier to hit the bottom toolbar of 3 than the third of 4 23:31:08 dude, it looks nothing like a toolbar. 23:31:12 it looks like web page content. 23:31:33 it's toolbarish enough to fool my reflexes 23:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:40:17 "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif 23:40:38 fizzie, are you trying to blind us all? 23:41:13 bye, time to night. 23:41:17 -> 23:41:38 Sgeo: Okay, next time I try to remember to use http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/tcpip2.gif which is easier on the eyes, at least as far as colors go. 23:42:06 fizzie's trying to poison us with uglyui-poison 23:42:22 Would I -- http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif -- do such a thing? 23:46:01 back 23:46:53 wb 23:47:35 I think I've just thought of the first troll linux distro. 23:51:00 I love how dinky the 95 start menu is 23:51:17 Also, is it just me, or is the fact I'm abbreviating it to 95 signalling that my brain really likes this thing? 23:55:43 "I'm a non-free OS, not a number!" 23:56:00 :D 23:56:23 * ehird95 has embarrasingly not seen the prisoner. 23:56:40 * oerjan hasn't either. like with 99% of all other memes he passes on 23:57:42 * ehird95 realises something 23:57:56 today I have been putting in people's web logs that i'm using windows 95 :D 23:58:17 i'm sure all the statistics-gatherers will go "wtf" when they see that 1 figure, then pass it off as a forged one 2009-10-03: 00:02:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:05:22 Has anyone tried OS/2? 00:22:50 [00:40:16] "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif 00:22:54 Slightly confusing UI there 00:27:07 ehird95, doesn't Anonym.OS pretend to be Win98? 00:27:51 Sgeo: What relevance has this statement? 00:28:09 That some websites see Win98 in their statistics 00:28:12 On occasion 00:28:23 (All those "lol sekurity" distros are retarded; single point of failure? You fail at security! Create this single point just to install Tor and GPG? You fail at life!) 00:28:28 Sgeo: Yes, but Windows 95? 00:28:58 If "Windows 98" is a reasonable thing to pretend to be, why not Win95? Maybe there still are a few 95 users out there 00:29:25 "the system is designed to look like Windows XP SP1" 00:29:35 Oh 00:29:38 I was mistaken 00:29:40 Using Anonym.OS is probably rarer than using 95, anyway. 00:30:13 But yes, there are, at least, two non-hermitty, internetty, savvy people who use 95 as their operating system. 00:30:27 (by choice) 00:31:15 "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif <-- what the fuck 00:31:39 Make that at least three. 00:31:42 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif <-- not quite as bad 00:31:47 I estimate at least 30-50 people. 00:32:01 (are sane, savvy, non-hermitty, internetty and use windows 95 as their main os by choice) 00:32:11 AnMaster: are you serious? 00:32:18 it'd take five years just to go through every preference 00:32:36 ehird95, "quite as bad, visually, as the first screenshot" 00:32:38 congratulations, now every single pixel is coloured to your specification, what's the app meant to be for again :P 00:32:41 AnMaster: well yeah 00:32:55 and yeah what is the app for 00:33:03 The first one only counts if there are additional tabs with upside down text below those fields. :D 00:33:14 AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. 00:33:23 You configure how you can configure it. 00:33:45 For instance, you could turn those tabs into a list at the side in "User interface". 00:34:26 You configure how you can configure it. <-- so you can configure it while you configure it? 00:34:33 Paul sent us this image of the Options dialog from MultiEdit 8.0. To date, we consider this the definitive example of how not to design a tabbed dialog. The sheer number of tabs, combined with the use of iconic labels and the gratuitous use of graphics on the tabs themselves results in a veritable visual assault. Once your eyes recover from the initial assault, you may be able to spot another problem: the use of nested tabs (note that two separate tabs on t 00:34:34 is the latter 00:35:00 they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif 00:35:04 (the posters of it) 00:35:14 which is, err, still far too many preferences, but stil 00:35:16 *still 00:35:39 * FireFly thinks lots of options is good when the options dialog has a search box 00:35:40 "While it is our belief that the proliferation of configuration options in MultiEdit has far exceeded the point of diminishing returns" 00:35:45 oh snap we think alike yes we do 00:36:06 they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif <-- relatively speaking, quite acceptable 00:36:13 FireFly: i respect your opinion, just please never contribute to any software i might want to use :P 00:36:19 AnMaster: yep, it's a good redesign 00:36:42 I'd still probably take one look at the category list and install something else, though... 00:36:50 but seriously what is the software for 00:36:57 I assume that " AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. You configure how you can configure it." was a joke 00:37:13 Sounds like some text editor 00:37:22 Based on what stuff in the image says 00:37:30 FireFly, but what about http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif then 00:37:32 Blocks, file extensions like c 00:37:33 same site 00:37:45 Well yeah, that just looks pretty confusing 00:37:47 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/ (old frameset'd site; click Hall of Shame). 00:37:52 It's a user interface, well, hall of shame. 00:37:57 Presumably from the Tabs category. 00:38:04 "Isys Information Architects Inc. specializes in the design and development of robust, highly usable information systems. Isys focuses on ease of use, recognizing that software" 00:38:07 ahahaha 00:38:26 eh cut off... 00:38:32 "...should assist the user in the performance of some task rather than becoming a task in itself. " 00:38:45 What about it? 00:38:47 ehird95, you can still copy the link Hall of Shame points to 00:38:57 though maybe not with whatever browser you're running on your -95 00:39:03 AnMaster: they didn't design those UIs. 00:39:07 AnMaster: It's in their Hall of Shame. 00:39:11 ehird95, oh ok 00:39:15 I see 00:39:18 You know, where they mock bad UIs. 00:39:22 FireFly: that misses the sidebar 00:39:25 which has the categories 00:39:30 of which I wanted to point to Tabs 00:39:34 anyway, I'm using SeaMonke 00:39:36 *SeaMonkey 00:39:47 which works perfectly well 00:40:00 Ah, that's fine, I guess 00:40:06 Not some ancient IE at least 00:40:22 FireFly: I have, in fact, expunged all parts of IE apart from the actual mshtml DLLs. 00:40:54 This win95 box, is it a vbox, toy computer or something random you just found lying around? 00:40:54 If I do an installation on real hardware those would go too; who uses .chm on 95? :P 00:40:58 ...or something else? :P 00:40:59 vbox 00:41:01 Ah 00:41:20 But I like this enough that a temptation is growing in me to buy an old tiny ThinkPad for fun purpose. 00:41:22 *purposes 00:41:29 * FireFly has an old ThinkPad here 00:41:34 Gimme :P 00:41:43 Heh 00:41:47 Gmail works fine. Admittedly it is running on a Core 2 Duo, but still, only 64MiB RAM. 00:41:49 My father threw out the old one 00:41:53 And we're talking a Mozilla Suite descendent here. 00:41:53 Which had 48M RAM 00:41:56 And 00:41:59 Well 00:42:11 Appropriately low-speccy processor 00:42:17 i'll pay you five million bux 00:42:18 gimme 00:42:22 :-P 00:42:24 It actually ran DSL pretty fast 00:42:36 I have some sort of urge to acquire all the retro hardware in the world, ever 00:42:49 Surely the enjoyment scale is linear? 00:42:51 You'll find it hard to realise that dream :P 00:43:15 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/olxerr.gif <-- Confusing error messages <3 00:45:13 FireFly: No but seriously, what old ThinkPad is it? I'm not so clued up on the old old ThPads despite looking at a bunch of new relatively ones. 00:45:16 sigh 00:45:17 system froze 00:45:32 95 is so smooth when it's... smooth :P 00:47:27 Well, this isn't the 48M one, sadly enough 00:47:29 Hm 00:47:44 It says "570" next to the thinkpad logo when I open it at least 00:48:01 Wow, so before the letter-series. 00:48:06 Other than that.. I can't find any useful info, not even on the bottom 00:48:19 FireFly: That thing is ooooooold. 00:48:24 Well okay not that old. 00:48:31 "Intel Mobile Pentium II 300, 333 or 366 CPU" 00:48:33 Mobile Pentium II 300/333/366 00:48:35 Snap 00:48:36 :P 00:48:46 Oh, a whopping 64M RAM 00:48:49 12" 800x600 or 13" 1024x768, 64MiB RAM, 4/6.4GB HD... 00:48:59 I think we're reading the same infobox 00:49:06 ThinkWiki. 00:49:07 P 00:49:09 :P 00:49:11 Yep 00:49:22 I kinda have my eyes on the svelte http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20, but it's oh-so-overpowered for 95 and its ilk. 00:49:28 A whole 500 muhurtz. 00:49:43 :) 00:50:05 A laptop loses its usefulness if you can't run it without the cord plugged in 00:50:21 Which are we referring to here 00:50:29 FireFly: you can make it into a digital picture frame 00:50:30 The X20 does have a battery... 00:50:39 the one I have in front of me 00:50:42 Presumably so does the 570 00:50:47 I think the battery is quite dead or something like that 00:50:49 Ah. 00:50:54 I mean 00:51:01 Makes a decent computery computer, though. 00:51:02 The computer hasn't been used in about a decade 00:51:12 Except from a couple of times the last few years 00:52:26 How can you have a nice x86-compat and not be using it all the time. My brain doesn't even have the logical formalizations to express such a concept :P 00:53:39 night → 01:03:39 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:57:12 -!- ehird95 has quit. 02:06:24 -!- ehird95 has joined. 02:34:55 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:19:18 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:56:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:14:28 -!- sebbu has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:28 -!- fungot has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- fizzie has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- Deewiant has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- fizzie` has joined. 04:14:36 -!- Deewiant has joined. 04:14:45 -!- AnMaster has joined. 04:14:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:54:41 -!- lament has left (?). 05:33:29 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:36:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:44:34 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:45:32 so what kind of hardware do you need to serve 50 200 kb files over http per second? 05:46:49 A system with at least 10MB RAM and an Ethernet port? 05:47:13 ... 05:48:17 200 Kb or 200 KB? 05:48:46 kilobytes 05:48:53 That's 8MBps. 05:49:05 You'd be hard-pressed to find a network stack slower than that. 05:49:09 that's a lot 05:49:44 So, a C64 with an Ethernet port, then. 05:49:55 oh come on 05:50:35 With a C64 your disk is mayhaps going to be too slow. Idonno how slow they were, but pretty slow. 05:50:45 With anything from a Tandy up, you're probably A-OK 05:50:49 Gregor: The disk was absurdly slow. 05:51:03 But a C64 can at least drive the Ethernet port sufficiently fast. 05:51:06 (... barely.) 05:51:44 The question wasn't what kind of "networking hardware" you'd need, it was what kind of "hardware" you need. 05:51:54 8 megabytes/second is not trivial 05:54:11 But a C64 can do it. 05:54:53 you might not even be able to get that through 100megabit ethernet with overhead 05:55:10 Oh, bytes, not bits. XD 05:55:49 Yeah, you need 100 megabit Ethernet for that. And believe me, you can get that through with overhead. 05:59:30 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 05:59:44 But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P 06:00:10 i don't have any other hosts up on this network to try 06:02:00 * pikhq has a few 06:03:00 nc a gigabyte or so 06:11:13 ... 06:39:06 -!- deschutron has joined. 06:42:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:49:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:52:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:33:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:43:01 i don't believe in hardware 08:52:37 and indexing is a stupid concept 08:52:52 i mean for arrays, also for databases, but for different reasons 08:55:34 even c++ iterators are prettier than code that uses arrays with indices. 08:55:54 maybe it's the fact numbers are involved 08:55:57 i hate numbers 08:56:00 who doesn't, i guess 08:56:14 also i do like number theory, i find that slightly weird 08:57:41 although the basic number theory course i am on now is basically practical group & field theory 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:47 o 08:57:48 o 08:57:50 o 08:57:52 o 08:57:54 o 08:57:56 this is a very weird morning 08:59:46 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to migomipo. 09:15:30 i would guess the thing you don't like about numbers is the symbols 09:23:27 well i do hate base 10 09:24:08 for algorithms, the problem with indexes is they make the logic of an algorithm hard to follow 09:29:04 *indices 09:29:19 which i'm fine with, usually, except when i'm trying to actually read code 09:37:27 i see 09:45:47 decided to check all the sorting algos on the wp list, actually bumped into a few new ones 09:46:01 anyway there was a haskell implementation on strand sort, that was refreshing 09:49:39 heh also bumped into one of our professors 09:49:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:50:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:51:36 told another prof the other day i saw him in wp, he told me "yeah, seen it, should probably rewrite that crap some day" 09:54:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:10:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:25 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 10:27:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:51:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:00:42 -!- migomipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 11:07:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:48:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:26:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:29:12 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 12:29:29 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 12:29:45 what the heck 12:30:25 also, 0.1 bits is not much 12:40:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 12:40:11 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:57:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:02:28 not even a bit much, if you ask me 13:03:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:30:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 14:15:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:41:22 oklofog, :D 14:41:37 err 14:41:41 oerjan :D 14:41:42 I meant 15:03:00 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:11:39 -!- Azstal has joined. 15:19:48 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:46:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:52:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:52:15 #lojban 15:52:21 No, /join disappeared :( 15:53:28 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:55:56 -!- clog has quit (^C). 15:55:56 -!- clog has quit (ended). 15:56:05 -!- clog has joined. 15:56:05 -!- clog has joined. 15:56:35 i just bought my cll 16:06:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:07:32 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 16:08:21 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:29:52 -!- deschutron has left (?). 16:39:37 oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly. 16:41:04 oklofog, cll? 16:41:08 If p is prime so that p - 1 has large prime factor and order of g is large mod p, then with very high probablilty calculating a from A, b from B or S1 or S2 from A and B is difficult. 16:44:45 oklofog: Another way to look at it: If kG is defined to be G + G + ... + G (k G's), G is element of some group: Alice generates 0 < a < orderof(G), computes A = aG and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < orderof(G), computes B = bG and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = aB and Bob can compute S2 = bA. Now if all goes well, S1 = S2. 16:52:36 oh great ubuntu: "Please insert a blank cd." <-- yeah I did, it claims there isn't though... Time for cd record 16:54:45 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:58:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:32 yay k3b works 17:06:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:12:31 After burning a cd that I selected to verify...: Didn't find media in drive. Please insert media. [load] [eject] [force] [cancel] 17:12:36 I wonder what "force" does 17:13:02 oh btw the reason that it just didn't pull it back in itself is that this is a laptop drive 17:18:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:22:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:23:28 Ilari: in other words discrete logarithm is suspected to not belong to FP 17:23:36 *not to 17:23:50 AnMaster: complete language of lojban 17:26:33 also i don't know diffie-hellman, we have a separate set of cryptography courses for that stuff 17:26:46 which i haven't done yet 17:26:56 -!- adam_d has joined. 17:27:19 well, they mentioned discrete logarithm is hard to do, but i knew that beforehand 17:32:31 -!- augur has joined. 17:50:37 oklofog, FP? 17:50:44 Floating Point? 17:51:28 Functional Polynomial Time 17:51:43 ah 17:57:44 FP: f(x,y) -> boolean, solve for y such that f(x,y) is true, is in FP if there is determisitic polynomial time algorithm that for every x: 1) f(x,y) is solvable in polynomial time, 2) If there exists y such that f(x,y) is true, output some such y, 3) If there is no y such that f(x,y) is true, output that there's no solution. 17:58:34 Idea is: Functions evaluable in polynomial time where there may be more output than just single boolean. 18:00:52 -!- deschutron has joined. 18:00:53 oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). 18:02:13 For Z_p*, with p - 1 having at least one large enough factor, the discrete log problem is approximately as hard as factoring numbers on order of p. 18:02:37 *prime factor 18:05:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:06:34 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 18:07:29 -!- jix has joined. 18:07:53 (The generic attack against group dlog has runtime proportional to sum of square roots of prime factors of group order). 18:10:15 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:24:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 18:26:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:27:17 oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). <-- too hard on current hardware or too hard in some other sense? 18:28:50 (say, theoretical limit of some sort) 18:31:46 Too hard on current hardware. 18:34:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:34:20 right 18:40:24 Ilari, can you panellise it in any way? 18:55:48 It probably can be paralelized. But 2^80 work is still too huge for today's hardware... Its equivalent to cracking DES with brute force tens of millions of times... 18:55:59 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7 18:56:02 er 18:56:04 wrong window 18:57:22 And already there's move towards elliptic groups of size ~2^224 (~2^112 work) or ~2^256 (~2^128 work). 18:58:21 128 hex characters -> 512 bits.... Some SHA-512 hash? 18:59:20 -!- jix has joined. 19:00:34 Ilari, correct 19:00:48 for en_windows_7_professional_x64_dvd_X15-65805.iso 19:00:58 (from MSDNAA) 19:05:22 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:05:36 Heh... Some SHA-3 candidates have 1024-bit outputs with enough pipe width for it. 19:06:13 eh? 19:06:54 The standard output sizes are 224, 256, 384 and 512, but some have more output sizes than those. 19:07:37 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 19:08:35 Ilari, oh? 19:08:35 hm 19:08:39 Ilari, 224 is a bit strange 19:08:45 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 19:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds 19:09:30 Rugxulo, public wlan? 19:09:35 Eating FAIL? :-> 19:09:36 yup 19:09:41 Ilari, yeah 19:09:52 AnMaster: There's SHA-224... 19:10:00 Ilari, yes a bit strange width 19:11:36 Don't know how it got to SHA-2. At least SHA-3 requirements have it because SHA-2 has 224-bit mode. 19:11:43 hah 19:11:53 lovely lovely backward compat 19:12:41 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:14:00 Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). 19:14:53 * Rugxulo never heard of SHA-3, only that SHA-1 is deprecated and SHA-2 was recommanded ... or so he thought 19:15:42 The SHA-3 is selected by competition (like AES was). There's currently 14 candidates for it. 19:16:43 I know CRC32 is lame, but isn't there some new cpu that supports it (but different poly)? 19:16:48 Breaks as in: Take E.g. Skein with 1024 bit pipe and 2048 bit output. One can do 2st preimage against that in ~2^1024 time just by brute force... 19:18:30 * Rugxulo bets the IBM Roadrunner could brute force most stuff ... 19:18:52 How many PFLOPS it has? 19:19:07 I dunno, lemme check Wikipedia ... 19:19:30 1.0 19:19:37 oops 19:19:45 designed for peak 1.7 19:19:58 reached 1.026 on may 25, 2008 19:20:12 Nov. 2008: 1.456 19:20:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibm_roadrunner 19:21:03 memory: 103.6 TiB 19:21:14 cost: $125 mil (US) 19:21:34 Say 2PFLOPS. Thats 2^51 FLOPS. In year, 2^76 FLOP. 19:22:01 Still, those computers are probably optimized for floating point and not as great in integer math. 19:22:19 standard Opterons and Cells (bunch of 'em) 19:23:40 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs 19:23:46 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-cores 19:23:47 Even that couldn't bruteforce 80-bit symmetric encryption... 19:24:27 PowerXCell 8i's are improved version of Cell (don't suck in Double-precision floating point). 19:24:57 * Rugxulo heard the Cell is a pain to program for 19:25:16 plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P 19:25:40 * Rugxulo shakes fist even though doesn't care 19:25:48 Yeah, the SPUs are bizarre compared to ordinary processors. 19:26:00 Plus they only have 256KiB directly accessable memory. 19:26:10 Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). <-- why does it break? 19:27:07 AnMaster: Exceed pipe size and it starts to lose information. E.g. Skein-1024-2048 only has ~2^1024 possible outputs. 19:27:39 Ilari, so it gets worse after that? 19:27:50 or just no better than below that limit 19:28:04 err 19:28:04 above 19:28:37 No better going above the limit. Also, some constructions start breaking already before the full pipe size is reached. 19:28:59 Ilari, what is the pipe here? 19:29:08 I don't know a lot about these sort of things 19:29:10 Internal state carried between "blocks". 19:29:28 aha 19:30:09 Term "Wide pipe" refers to pipe being wider than output (usually in wide pipe design, pipe is twice the output size). 19:32:56 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:33:03 Ilari, what is the pipe width of SHA-2? 19:33:04 All practical hashes have constant state size (usually state includes buffer for current block, byte/bit counter and chaining value "pipe"). 19:33:23 256 for 224/256-bit output, 512 for 384/512-bit output. 19:33:37 plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P <-- why? 19:33:37 SHA-1 has 160 bit output and pipe. 19:34:23 AnMaster, I think 'cause they claim it's not worth the effort to upgrade the firmware (or some lame reason) 19:34:30 Ilari, why 384... 19:34:46 SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... 19:34:53 some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) for clusters, instead preferring only gamers (who buy games, where they make back the money) 19:35:16 AnMaster: 384 is average of 256 and 512 (maybe)? 19:35:36 SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... <-- huh? 19:35:48 CRC32 and Adler32 are really fast, no? but yeah I know they aren't very secure (if at all) 19:35:52 what was fast? 19:36:02 Edon-R? 19:37:03 Yeah, something like 3 cycles per byte... 19:37:55 don't some VIA chips have a SHA(-1?) instruction? 19:39:26 One of the hashes in competition has reported speed of ~3.6 clocks/byte (512-bit, 64-bit host). 19:43:35 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 19:43:39 x86-64 or other? 19:43:58 X64 (Core 2 duo). 19:44:42 cool 19:48:22 When it comes to encryption algorithms, ridiculous key sizes are good sign of snake oil algorithms... 19:48:55 *a good sign 19:50:19 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... 19:52:00 and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-) 19:53:59 I have 103TiB of RAM in my toaster. 19:54:56 Of course, my toaster scans the bread into its memory banks, then produces computationally and generates it from its bank of raw organic matter. 19:55:11 *produces toast computationally 19:55:27 ah its a replicator 19:55:29 Because what is currently known about physics says that bruteforcing 256-bit keys is impossible. 19:55:33 ... for toast 19:55:58 deschutron: I plan to generalize it though. 19:56:10 I'd like for it to pickle things, too. 19:56:30 Does it use a brute force algorithm to calculate the best toast? 19:58:01 deschutron: oh, I saw your quasi-Feather thing, it's rather unlike Feather, but ofc that doesn't mean it's a bad lang 19:58:12 I think pretty much every entity in existence is rather unlike Feather 19:58:34 Thanks 19:58:51 I had a feeling it was unlike feather but still good 20:00:01 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 20:00:23 Good luck in your quest to define Feather 20:01:19 Just calculating all the possible keys would require ~5*10^54 J of energy (that's approximately the mass energy in 25 million solar masses). 20:11:56 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... <-- what about asymmetric ones? 20:12:48 hi ais523 20:13:03 hi 20:13:12 deschutron, what was your quasi-feather thing? 20:13:58 one good thing with dual core is that when something is hogging one CPU you can still easily kill it 20:13:58 its a language I thought of after talking to ais523 about feather 20:14:08 What, more feather thingies? 20:14:10 killall firefox did the trick 20:14:11 * FireFly reads 20:14:18 deschutron, link? 20:14:33 it's a prototyped language where you set the initial state of variables rather than their current states 20:14:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather 20:16:11 Depends on base problem. 1024-bit EC key is about 2^512 effort to crack (generic classic attacks can't touch it). 1024-bit discrete is ~2^80 effort (already starting to become too short). 20:18:24 Ilari, what about RSA? 20:18:36 AnMaster: RSA falls into "discrete" class. 20:18:41 ah 20:18:46 Ilari, DH/DSS? 20:18:56 I think that is what GPG uses 20:19:04 DH/DSS is discrete ECDH/ECDSS is EC 20:19:20 EC meaning? 20:19:25 Elliptic Curve 20:20:43 GPG can also use DSA2, which defines 2048 (112 bit equivalent) and 3072 (128 bit equivalent) bit keylengths. 20:21:58 DSA2 differs from standard DSA only in that it uses longer keys and SHA-2 hash functions. 20:24:48 deschutron, wow that lang looks great 20:25:03 thanks 20:25:11 what do you like about it? 20:25:14 It confuses me 20:25:22 :D 20:25:23 deschutron, everything but the java-like syntax 20:25:26 haha 20:25:43 Also, it had a typo in one of the examples, the method finalize/finalized was called the wrong thing somewhere 20:26:18 1. Variables may be partially defined. 2. You must define a variable with assignment operators, like in a normal imperative p programming language. 20:26:20 typo there 20:26:23 "p programming" 20:27:33 deschutron, I like the partial variables 20:27:43 however I wonder if this may not make it very very hard to execute 20:28:16 "Because of this bahviour, and the general treatment of contradictions, I suspect D.Quasifeather is a declarative programming language. " 20:28:18 hm 20:28:24 "D.Quasifeather"? 20:28:44 Deschutron Quasifeather 20:28:47 short for Deschutroid Quasifeather 20:28:51 Uh 20:29:04 Bleh, just autocompleted and supposed it'd be correct :P 20:29:12 ah 20:29:19 Didn't notice the language prefix and nick were different 20:30:06 The interpreter (or compiled program) has to store constraints for partially defined variables. 20:30:16 Then it can use a function to check assignments against its stored constraints. 20:30:23 deschutron, anyway... I suspect you could use partial variable stuff to crack asymetric ciphers 20:30:25 at least some 20:30:35 haha 20:30:37 oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly. 20:30:39 how so? 20:30:42 think that example 20:31:04 so make a and b partial variables 20:31:35 deschutron, see what I mean? 20:31:42 i think so 20:31:45 it might help 20:32:03 deschutron, it might thus be rather hard to make an implementation of your language 20:32:08 but it I don't think it can do anything existing constraint programming languages can't do 20:32:21 deschutron, well indeed 20:32:28 I guess 20:32:59 deschutron, can you branch based on partial variable? 20:33:03 sure, no if 20:33:10 but you claim it to be TC so... 20:33:27 [spawned Bob; Bob.foo(); (the rest of the loop's code occurs inside the foo() method) 20:33:31 that doesn't work I think 20:33:37 what if the current cell is 0 20:33:46 thus the loop is never entered 20:34:05 deschutron, well? :P 20:34:44 Ilari: why do you know so much? 20:34:52 when is the loop never entered? 20:35:03 deschutron, in bf? when the current cell is 0 20:35:21 *** looks up brainfuck 20:36:08 oh I forgot [ jumps to the end of the loop if the cell is zero 20:36:15 deschutron, yep 20:36:19 thanks 20:43:47 i think I've found the solution to that problem 20:47:00 i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. 20:47:02 if Bob.foo() is a recursive method, and it checks the value at the start of the method 20:47:55 then it can exit the loop from its beginning in the same way as a Brainfuck loop 20:48:33 someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| 20:48:58 by which i mean deschutron's feather 20:49:39 well not so much lazy as internet slowly working having. 20:50:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather 20:50:05 actually more like internet being broken just noticing 20:50:11 i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. <-- are they? 20:50:33 someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| <-- "entfedern"? 20:51:49 AnMaster: i consider Ilari, Deewiant and fizzie` smarter than me, dunno about keymaker, irl people are stupid; i consider many others here less smart than me, but not saying finns actually have the lead. 20:52:25 also it's a vector quantity, most aren't comparable 20:52:39 Partial variables can be branched on. e.g. "b = sign(a); b = 1; a = 0;" causes time-sealing. 20:52:56 damn internet 20:52:59 how many Finns are there here? 20:53:30 deschutron: those, at least 20:53:39 i don't recall others 20:53:59 -!- jix has joined. 20:54:03 oklofog, don't you prefer non-classical music? 20:54:10 rock or something 20:54:45 AnMaster: mostly i like songs without singing; metal, classic, all sorts of noise, some jazz... 20:55:40 oklofog, that is your problem 20:55:49 oklofog, you never heard that Mozart makes you smart? ;P 20:55:53 german entfedern, afaik, means "to rip off feathers", loosely translated 20:56:20 i'm sure you all got the joke 20:56:22 oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something? 20:56:34 AnMaster: but i like mozard 20:56:43 *mozart 20:56:44 haha 20:57:06 oklofog, oh? I thought you didn't like that sort of classical music? 20:57:06 i might call the language that 20:57:23 deschutron: you should check it means that first :P 20:58:06 iirc "ent" is a prefix for something like "away", "federn" being "to feather" 20:58:29 AnMaster: mozart has instrumentals 20:59:14 * AnMaster notes his old Soundblaster Live! 5.1 PCI card is able to put out *noticeable* more bass than either the on-board VIA sound chipset in the same computer or the on-board Intel chipset in the laptop 20:59:25 also he has human sung stuff that is pretty complex, almost instrumental 20:59:36 using same mixer settings (as far as they are found) and same high quality headphones 21:00:06 * pikhq notes that the SB Live! was a good card. 21:00:12 high quality == studio quality here 21:00:22 "AnMaster: oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?" <<< it was in verb form, "to do that" 21:00:26 Beyerdynamics DT150 21:00:38 oklofog, ah ok 21:01:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:01:22 pikhq, yes it is. 21:01:24 not was 21:01:26 luckily 21:01:32 but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays 21:01:40 so will be an issue for my next computer 21:01:52 plus SB Live! has hardware mixer and hardware midi 21:02:29 just tried to look it up, i found entfernen "to remove, strip off" and feder "feather", but no "entfedern" 21:02:37 Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. 21:03:05 My SB Live! finally gave up the smoke earlier this year. 21:03:19 deschutron, don't know German, but in Swedish (same language group) you can basically freely create new words by concatenation of the right things. 21:03:57 there is basically no upper length limit apart from how long your breath lasts. Theoretically. No one would do that due to it being unreasonable 21:04:18 Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. <-- hm :/ 21:04:26 pikhq, ouch :( 21:05:05 pikhq, that seriously sucks a lot 21:05:19 deschutron: it's possible you wouldn't find it in a webdict, my friend's dictionary contains, for some reason, tons of these really weird hunting terms 21:05:40 entfedern sounds like it might be one of those 21:06:19 Since DC coupling to output is not possible (signaficant DC components fry amplifiers) and AC coupling is inheritly bandpass. 21:06:34 Ilari, then how do you do it? 21:06:35 pikhq: i decide to interpret that as you giving up smoking, because you smoking is such a weird thought 21:07:05 Just use large enough decoupling capacitors to push the lower freq limit down. 21:07:26 Or build higher-powered amplifier. 21:07:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 21:07:34 Ilari, how comes you know this sort of stuff 21:07:46 Ilari, plus I have the volume rather low to not damage my hearing 21:07:50 yeah Ilari, how do you know so much 21:07:55 :D 21:07:58 I just want accurate representation of the sound at that volume 21:08:09 *why 21:08:16 that's good enough for me 21:08:24 deschutron, what is? 21:08:26 One friend told that faulty sound card fried his external amplifier with overly large DC component. 21:08:43 the explanation around entfedern 21:08:55 Ilari, I wouldn't want my headphones to fry when I'm using them 21:09:36 If they are passive, any reasonable DC component probably won't fry them. But active headphones are different matter. 21:09:57 Ilari, how do I tell the difference? 21:10:26 look for batteries? 21:10:57 i just understood how my language might crack the Diffie-Hellman point raised earlier 21:11:05 http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][showUID]=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][backPID]=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1 21:11:14 I guess implementations of my language should just accept that there's some things they can't calculate, even if they do have all the information 21:11:17 oklofog, in headphones? never seen that 21:11:49 deschutron: there's nothing wrong with being able to write a program to crack DH. you can do that in any lang 21:12:28 AnMaster: I have wireless headphones. These do have batteries. Still wired headphones with batteries are probably rare. 21:12:35 Ilari, yeah 21:12:36 oklofog: ... 21:12:44 these definitely doesn't have headphones 21:12:45 err 21:12:45 AnMaster: i don't know the definition of "active", i just know our bass player has an "active bass", and it has batteries. 21:12:47 batteries 21:12:58 oklofog: "gave up the smoke" means that the magic smoke came loose from the bord. ;) 21:13:24 pikhq, every time I thought that happened it was the damn complex alsa mixer settings that were off 21:13:33 pikhq, since you had such a card you know what I mean 21:13:54 like recently when it turned out mute was on for the right channel 21:14:06 pikhq: My SB Live! (correct use of the interjection?) 21:14:27 oklofog, the product is called "Soundblaster Live!" 21:14:30 with that "!" 21:14:33 so yeah kind of 21:14:53 it is rather irritating when a product name contains a "! 21:14:54 maybe, maybe sometimes my jokes are so complicated they aren't even funny. 21:14:54 " 21:15:30 AnMaster: and yeah, i know that 21:15:32 like 3dNow! 21:15:33 oklofog: you're right. however i don't want it to do it unexpectedly because the programmer made a certain set of assignments 21:16:06 deschutron, why not 21:16:06 well, i don't know it, i deduced it. 21:17:09 well actually, i'm not sure i don't want it to 21:18:03 also the interjection joke was a continuation of the earlier one, i clearly parsed it as some sort of "OMG", to have understood the giving up the smoke as pikhq quitting smoking, not sure that was obvious 21:18:26 at least AnMaster didn't get it, so explaining is justified 21:19:30 deschutron: stuff can hang unexpectedly in any language, if you don't know what you're doing 21:21:15 AnMaster: I always pronounce those "!"s 21:21:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postalveolar_click 21:21:27 of course the more high level and declarative, the more this will depend on the implementation 21:22:40 yes, unexpectedly hanging on the programmer isn't a problem now as I see it. this case at least would not happen too often 21:23:27 you would probably have to implement diffie hellman, and the ask out of curiosity what the other party's private key is 21:24:19 deschutron, please upload a recording where you pronounce "Soundblaster Live! 5.1" 21:24:19 there is the problem that the language assumes that if there is enough information to calculate something, then it has access to the answer 21:24:20 :D 21:26:15 deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ... 21:26:17 to satisfy that assumption, the language might have to be able to use all sorts of algorithms for unusual situations 21:26:49 you *should* be able to ask stuff that takes too long to calculat. 21:26:50 *e 21:27:10 well if it only takes too long, it shouldn't be a problem 21:27:31 i only care now about how long i takes to implement the language 21:28:43 you can just start a brute force thread for every query, write special algos for some cases 21:29:00 * ais523 proves Norfuck Turing-incomplete 21:29:02 i mean in theory 21:29:09 what's norfuck? 21:29:14 being able to simulate finite subsets of rule 110 does not make a program TC... 21:29:16 don't link, internet don't flow. 21:29:17 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Norfuck 21:29:23 oh, it basically has 3 commands 21:29:28 >: move pointer to the right 21:29:59 <: if current cell is 1, set internal state to true (otherwise leave it the same), move pointer to first cell 21:30:11 !: set current cell to inverse of internal state, set internal state to false, move pointer to first cell 21:30:23 and it has a tape of booleans 21:30:28 and 1 bit of internal state 21:30:32 deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ... 21:30:36 xrange? 21:30:39 you mean range 21:30:44 well, no 21:30:47 after all that is same as the legacy xrange 21:30:54 python 3 dropped xrange 21:31:02 and range is same as the old xrange 21:31:04 and i'm not using python 3 because it's stupid 21:31:20 clearly Turing-incomplete due to finite accessible memory 21:31:21 oklofog, why is it stupid? 21:31:25 although I think it's a universal FSM 21:31:36 AnMaster: i don't remember. 21:31:39 i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete 21:31:48 some detail that made me debug a program for ages 21:31:48 right 21:31:52 division 21:32:02 integer division got its own operator 21:32:04 oklofog, you mean / vs. // 21:32:08 pretty sensible, really 21:32:10 well that isn't stupid IMO 21:32:16 well it isn't stupid 21:32:24 it's just... i hate it 21:32:25 you see? 21:32:29 ah 21:32:33 :P 21:32:47 i tried it once, and got pissed, it's probably better in every way. 21:32:55 oklofog, I like the python 2.5-and-later syntax for ?: foo if condition else bar 21:33:35 i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete <-- eh? 21:33:57 well i don't really like python anymore... or any language except a few nonexistant ones of my own, but umm isn't that from perl 21:34:15 oklofog, maybe. I don't know perl 21:34:18 the ifelse thinger 21:34:28 me neither 21:34:52 ais523: does it have loops 21:35:00 oklofog: program repeats when it ends 21:35:03 so it has just the one loop 21:35:35 someone should really define turing completeness 21:35:40 although I think it's a universal FSM <- how do you prove it? 21:35:49 oklofog, being able to do everything an UTM can 21:35:50 there 21:35:51 I did it 21:35:53 AnMaster: compile some other FSM to it 21:36:00 what's a universal fsm? 21:36:01 ais523, such as? 21:36:14 oklofog: an FSM that any other FSM can be compiled to 21:36:15 oklofog, I was hoping to ask that indirectly 21:36:24 well, and FSM description language that any FSM can be described in 21:36:28 I was being sloppy with language 21:36:42 s/and/an/ 21:36:42 AnMaster: doesn't really help with the finite/infinite issue 21:36:52 oklofog, eh? 21:37:13 AnMaster: suppose you have a language in which you can reasonably write an infinitely long program 21:37:19 say, cat 21:37:22 AnMaster: proofs of 110 and ais523's tm require infinite starting conditions 21:37:23 well ok 21:37:24 even cat is TC by your definition 21:37:37 the issue is, /which/ infinite starting conditions do you need? 21:37:38 the tm requires a rather complex starting pattern 21:37:47 ais523, no? 21:37:47 it isn't able to do everything that a UTM can 21:37:52 AnMaster: yes it is 21:37:52 there is no definition for whether that's allowed 21:37:56 well I was sloppy with langauge 21:37:59 being equivilent to 21:38:00 is better 21:38:05 what you do is, you run all possible programs in parallel 21:38:08 equivalent* 21:38:13 whenever any produces output, you write the program and its output to a file 21:38:16 then, you feed that file to cat 21:38:21 see, cat can do anything a UTM can 21:38:38 the issue is, that input is far too complex to demonstrate TCness with; the TCness is in the input, not the lang itself 21:38:53 ais523, right. Lets say then "Being equivalent to an UTM" 21:39:11 I had a big row with Professor Pratt about whether it's possible to get TC behaviour from a sub-TC-generable input fed into a sub-TC language 21:39:12 that really isn't a definition. 21:39:13 I think it isn't 21:39:28 oklofog, well ok 21:39:32 he isn't sure on the issue, and thinks it isn't obvious either way 21:39:40 so define it yourself them 21:39:44 then* 21:39:55 the profs here that prove undecidability for a living, at least, say there's no actual definition 21:40:04 oklofog: so do I 21:40:12 * oerjan notes ais523 ninjaed him on Norfuck but posts his comment anyhow 21:40:14 oh? 21:40:18 at least, you can give necessary and sufficient definitions 21:40:19 PCI hard? Not at all 21:40:20 how can there be no definition? 21:40:22 but unfortunately they aren't the same 21:40:28 in-between, mathematicians disagree 21:40:28 Hmm, I was scrolled up 21:40:37 Deewiant, PCI hard? :D 21:40:46 is that more than NP Hard? 21:40:48 2009-10-03 23:01:32 ( AnMaster) but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays 21:40:48 or less 21:41:02 Deewiant, ok then... ISA is 21:41:03 That was what I was trying to respond to 21:41:23 -!- ehird has joined. 21:41:39 hi ehird 21:41:41 What do you need ISA for? 21:41:42 no 95 any more? 21:41:43 SeaMonkey on 95 crashes a lot, so I'm back using my host OS. 21:41:54 why not just use Opera/ 21:41:57 Deewiant, nothing 21:42:18 ais523: Opera crashes less, admittedly, but it's slower and also freezes the computer more. 21:42:26 (Opera 9; Opera 10 also uses all my system resources.) 21:42:40 ehird, freezing computer counts as crashing doesn't it? 21:42:48 Not if it unfreezes. 21:43:10 ah ok 21:43:11 true 21:43:22 Slower than what? 21:43:25 Ah, SeaMonkey 21:43:33 Yeah; hard to believe, eh? 21:43:37 AnMaster: it's kinda hard to find a definition without deciding on a formalism. 21:43:48 Well, I'm used to Opera being pretty fast 21:43:50 :P 21:43:58 The full bloated Mozilla Suite and Gecko vs a light-weight, snappy browser that has a reputation of working on older hardware. 21:44:02 Of course the first is faster! 21:44:17 I guess Windows 95 isn't much of a target platform, though. 21:44:26 it is sad that microsoft didn't stick to 9x design 21:44:36 GUI-wise, yes. Kernel-wise, fuck no 21:44:40 9x is unstable as shit 21:44:45 ehird, that was my point! 21:44:52 why? Because then Linux and OS X would have ruled the world by now 21:44:53 how do you upload a file? 21:45:07 deschutron: text or other? 21:45:09 if other filebin.ca 21:45:10 the original "definition" was you have a finite pattern plus padding, which isn't really a formal definition without a definition of what is considered padding; and also that definition disallows the kinds of proofs used for 110 and aismachine 21:45:13 if text pastebin.ca 21:45:19 AnMaster: Nobody much switched to Linux because of 9x. 21:45:21 other 21:45:26 ehird, hm ok 21:45:29 deschutron: if image imgur.com 21:45:39 AnMaster: Probably because 9x booted really quickly and Linux didn't catch up until this decade. 21:45:42 deschutron, to the wiki? 21:45:43 sound file? 21:45:49 deschutron: filebin.ac 21:45:51 *ca 21:45:55 yeah filebin.ca 21:45:57 AnMaster: So 9x crashing is less important :-P 21:46:30 ehird, if MS had stuck to 9x still at this time though 21:46:59 ehird, I want to see you run windows ME for a bit :P 21:46:59 Games, inertia etc. MS would have been here to stay unless they made something totally unusable, which they've never done. 21:47:05 AnMaster: I did for years. 21:47:15 Yes, it crashes a lot with most hardware, but it's tolerable to a point. 21:47:18 ehird, that explains a LOT. 21:47:37 A totally unusable OS would never get past MS' gates (har har) purely because, well, they *do* test these things. 21:47:41 ;P 21:47:47 http://filebin.ca/jxpepe/soundblasterlive!.mp3 21:47:50 AnMaster: It sort of scarred me. 21:48:04 deschutron: Soundblaster?? Is this whole channel casting a retro-fad spell? 21:48:48 channel casting? 21:48:52 deschutron, heh 21:48:59 Yes. 21:49:06 deschutron, why do you pronounce it like that 21:49:08 Channels be spiritual entities. 21:49:27 because then the exclamation mark has a point. 21:49:36 deschutron, heh 21:49:48 deschutron, why the american sound 21:49:53 it has become a letter and not a punctuation mark, and is therefore completely out of place 21:49:53 try some UK English 21:49:58 a lot less draaawling 21:50:14 (I think that is the word) 21:50:31 if it comes up again, i will use received pronunciation then 21:50:38 deschutron, heh 21:50:52 deschutron, I was just making fun of US English. No offence meant . 21:50:58 s/ ././ 21:51:01 err wait 21:51:02 no 21:51:04 s/ \././ 21:51:09 the funny thing is i'm australian 21:51:17 deschutron, oh? Sounds like US English 21:51:29 deschutron, maybe the lack of "gday mate" mislead me 21:51:38 21:59:30 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 21:51:38 21:59:44 But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P 21:51:40 any old computer 21:51:43 like older than 2000 21:51:44 ehird: I really do wish Microsoft stuck with a 95-esque interface. That was a very usable UI. Not the nicest-looking thing ever, but Microsoft's track record with aesthetics is such that I prefer utilitarian over their idea of "beauty". ;) 21:52:19 americans would say blaster differently, right? like a long form of the 'a' in cat 21:52:25 the widgets were usable enough. I'm not going to glorify it, though; 95's design ran into a wall, both GUI-wise and kernel-wise. 21:52:36 Microsoft's been just running around aimlessly since. 21:52:40 * pikhq nods 21:52:45 Now to find out what the context of this conversation is. 21:52:57 A few lines up about 10 minutes ago. 21:53:05 microsoft's been investing a bit into touch screen devices, apparently 21:53:10 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.03 ;; that first oklopol monologue is art 21:53:18 I did some stack munging. w00ts. 21:53:43 "i don't believe in hardware" 21:53:47 that's a great quote 21:54:00 o 21:54:11 ... Array indexing? 21:54:15 04:29:29 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 21:54:16 04:29:45 what the heck 21:54:16 ethernet 21:54:36 You mean there's something other than <$>? 21:54:42 oerjan was what-the-hecking at 100millibit :P 21:54:47 (/fmap/map/liftM2...) 21:55:21 Gregor: oh :D 21:55:23 deschutron, tell me... do you understand: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3 21:56:11 i can hear a few words, but i can't make out words in singing usually. sounds perfectly comprehensible to me, though. 21:56:27 ehird, no after the singing 21:56:28 ... 21:56:31 oh. 21:56:34 well you didn't specify. 21:56:36 did you 21:56:39 sorry indeed 21:56:47 *listens* 21:56:56 first it is easy to understand 21:57:00 but then it gets worse and worse 21:57:08 _actually_, the what the heck was about my double pasting, my old senile three year old computer does weird freeze ups close to startup 21:57:38 so it didn't register the first paste, and i thought i'd forgotten to press ^C 21:57:44 well okay this is pretty meaningless. 21:58:30 10:55:59 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7 21:58:34 YOUR NEW PGP KEY EH 21:59:12 11:08:45 --- join: Rugxulo (n=user@nmd.mcd01412.hou.wayport.net) joined #esoteric 21:59:12 11:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds 21:59:21 most embarrassing hostname ever? 21:59:32 what's wrong with that hostname? 21:59:43 it identifies you as being at mcdonalds 22:00:32 so anyway, I wonder what fun OS I should try now 22:00:38 hmm... maybe the last BeOS 22:00:43 see what all the fuss is about 22:01:47 ehird, so hard is it to understand that podcast? 22:02:06 Well, obviously. I doubt it'd be easy for an Australian, either. 22:02:16 ehird, same 22:02:34 which is why I asked deschutron 22:08:09 -!- Azstal has joined. 22:08:44 so you see the in the history of the Australian dialect, apparently, there was a guy who went around causing all kinds of trouble. and then the presenter driving through the country at some point, and he found a mechanic, who was completely drunk, and had dinner with him. 22:08:55 deschutron: ... 22:08:58 you must be making this up X_X 22:09:04 ^ s/presenter driving/presenter was driving/ 22:09:20 I couldn't even understand regular english talked that quickly 22:09:31 this is an important story in our dialectic history 22:09:44 deschutron, you mean you understand it? 22:10:00 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:10:01 about 70% 22:10:03 there is a transcript at http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html 22:10:04 btw 22:10:08 with annotations 22:10:12 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit). 22:10:21 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:10:26 hi frater_aleph 22:10:28 who're you 22:10:29 ah, a cardinal 22:10:38 hi :) 22:10:39 >_< 22:10:45 any R+C here? 22:10:48 R+C? 22:12:06 we take that as a no 22:12:15 wut 22:12:19 yeah :) 22:12:30 what're you talking about :| 22:12:51 frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on 22:13:06 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:13:07 and I have no clue what "R+C" is either 22:13:09 we should move to #esoterica and have lots more fun with people mistaking it 22:13:12 heh 22:13:15 well that got rid of him 22:13:24 ehird, or just connection issues 22:13:29 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:13:35 Or that. 22:13:36 as shown 22:13:38 Hi frater_aleph, what is R+C. 22:13:46 not sure if you saw this: 22:13:48 frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on 22:14:40 RAAAAAAAAAAAR DINOSAURS 22:14:47 Dinosaurs with inquiring minds want to know what R+C is. 22:14:59 raptors + ? 22:15:00 You wouldn't ignore a dinosaur would you? Because that would be fatal. 22:15:04 ah ok hahahahaha 22:15:07 sorry anmaster 22:15:07 oerjan: The ? is the ELEMENT OF SUSPENSE 22:15:12 frater_aleph: WHAT IS R+C 22:15:13 :P 22:15:15 We must know 22:15:17 frater_aleph, I have no clue what R+C is either 22:15:18 RosiCrucian 22:15:24 raptors + cardinals from the spanish inquisition 22:15:27 oh sounds like esoterica 22:15:28 hehehehe 22:15:31 indeed 22:15:32 ok ppl take care :) 22:15:32 shweet, a retarded secret society 22:15:34 sorry about that 22:15:40 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit). 22:15:41 ^bf ,[.,]!test 22:15:41 aha 22:15:43 we are used to people mistaking 22:15:48 the problem with name clashes is that the people we're mistaken for are all deluded idiots :( 22:16:00 or russian musicians/ 22:16:10 IS THERE A DIFFERENCE 22:16:12 or Remote Controlled 22:16:14 ais523: wait, what? 22:16:21 oerjan: lima! :-[ 22:16:26 oerjan: ask ehird for the story 22:16:32 or ask tunes.org, a day or two ago 22:16:35 :-P 22:16:35 * oerjan dares not 22:16:37 ehird, tell us the story 22:16:42 I'm still not sure whether it was a legitimate confused person, or a troll... 22:17:00 legit. 22:17:09 huh, how long ago was it?? 22:17:15 not on the 28th onwards 22:18:02 was it lima or lina 22:18:28 x_x 22:18:30 I can't find it 22:18:48 it happened in a parallel dimension 22:18:59 where esoteric means something completely different 22:19:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:19:17 ok, WTF? clog evidently didn't pick itu p 22:19:18 oerjan, yes about russian musicians I guess 22:19:18 *it up 22:19:23 It was while I was 95 22:19:24 ehird, tell us about it then 22:19:27 how long was I 95? 22:19:29 one or two days? 22:19:36 ehird, three or four? 22:19:47 ehird, tell me what to grep for 22:19:50 one, actually 22:19:50 and I can find it 22:19:53 I have complete logs 22:19:59 more or less 22:20:05 here we go 22:20:07 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.02 22:20:09 grep 'linf' 22:21:00 some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) 22:21:05 nonsense, they surely make a profit 22:21:14 a high-end games console as a loss leader is ridiculous 22:21:53 11:52:00 and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-) 22:22:01 it's needed for the purpose of the RR 22:22:22 103 TiB of RAM is quite a lot... 22:22:36 It's in the IBM RoadRunner, which is more a supercomputer cluster (tens of thousands of CPUs in "blade nodes") 22:22:54 it's at about 1.5 petaflops atm 22:22:59 "In November 2008, it reached a top performance of 1.456 petaflops, retaining its top spot in the TOP500 list." 22:23:05 will be completed this year 22:23:08 I are having many english speakings thanking much 22:23:09 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs, 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors, Infiniband, Linux 22:23:12 you don't say 22:23:13 IBM made it 22:23:23 it's owned by the US military 22:23:25 "The DOE plans to use the computer for simulating how nuclear materials age in order to predict whether the USA's aging arsenal of nuclear weapons are safe and reliable. Other uses for the Roadrunner include the sciences, financial, automotive and aerospace industries." 22:23:58 Considering how it's basically a bunch of servers wired together with a fast link, I'd call it more of a server farm 22:24:29 admittedly a lot of supercomputers are that today; still 22:25:49 supercomputers, the hive minds of computing 22:26:41 "This language is only Turing complete when it has errors." :D 22:27:25 it would be interesting if someone found an important research computation task that was completely non-parallelizable 22:28:04 all hardware development since 2000 (?) or so would be useless for it 22:28:13 like how important 22:28:21 also, if such a task exists, it's pretty hopeless 22:28:25 chips can only run so fast... 22:28:41 like, some new way of simulating quantum physics... 22:28:59 heck, modern workstations rival supercomputers in serial execution speed... 22:29:33 I'd imagine that could at least be treated as a dependency graph of some sort... 22:29:46 pikhq: thu "interesting if" 22:29:54 True. 22:29:56 *thus 22:30:02 also, quantum physics is possibly uncomputable 22:30:23 untractable 22:30:28 ? 22:30:41 is not the same, mathematically 22:31:38 well, could be. 22:31:52 what do you mean by untractable 22:31:54 if the theory is even weirder 22:32:04 untractable = superpolynomial 22:32:26 which is still weaker than uncomputable, but not in practice 22:32:30 ok, well superpolynomial doesn't seem so bad 22:32:43 I mean, we can solve small NP-complete problems on today's computers; admittedly it blows up really fast 22:32:58 but imagine a computer bigger than a million galaxies; I'm sure it could simulate a few atoms... 22:33:35 (and obviously even thinking about simulating it until we can build such computers is rather futile) 22:34:33 however there is a theory that simulating quantum systems with quantum computers would not be superpolynomial 22:34:52 what is fungot? 22:34:56 if the difficulty is purely in the quantum part 22:35:03 ^source 22:35:07 omg it's dead. 22:35:09 :(((( 22:35:10 fizzie 22:35:12 fizzie fizzie fizzie FIZZIE 22:35:16 fizzie` 22:35:22 fizzie` fizzie` fizzie` FIZZIE~ 22:35:25 fungot we hardly knew ye 22:35:34 gone, in fact 22:35:42 ? 22:35:44 deschutron: anyway, bot in befunge 22:35:50 it babbles 22:35:57 and squabbles 22:36:01 and slices and dices 22:36:06 zem.fi is down 22:36:14 as well as its gehennom.org alias 22:36:19 fizzie` is `-ified 22:36:26 WHAT IS HAPPENING 22:36:40 hmm well fizzie is from zem.fi atm 22:36:43 fizzie` that is 22:36:45 well, it became sentient recently 22:36:49 as far as we can tell 22:37:00 maybe it thought the conversation in here was too inane and left 22:37:02 clearly the finns have accidentally produced a black hole, and the country is gone 22:37:19 ais523: taking down zem.fi with it? :P 22:37:32 oh wait, right, singularity 22:37:33 "Bet you wish you'd made me Friendly. *zap*" 22:37:46 we're actually all executing a little fungot right now. 22:38:10 "that'll be funGOD to you, from now on!" 22:39:26 is this one of those "he still executes, in our hearts", things? 22:39:35 no 22:39:40 he's a superhuman AI 22:39:44 he hacked into all of our computers. 22:39:49 :D 22:39:57 yeah where is fungot 22:40:01 collectively we have rather more computing power than that squalid zem.fi place, but considerably more latency 22:40:18 and became the technological singularity, and conquered finland? 22:40:30 well, Ilari talked recently... 22:40:38 deschutron, yeah. And he was written in befuge 22:40:40 (maybe he's actually swedish) 22:40:41 funge* 22:40:45 AnMaster: has been said. 22:40:48 *so has been 22:40:48 ah 22:40:49 no that was just at first. then he transfered to biological power, so indeed he _does_ execute in our hearts now. as well as our brains, livers and spleens. 22:41:05 hmm is that really more efficient 22:41:07 oh just got an update 22:41:09 he's now pure energy 22:41:13 and living in our wires 22:41:22 he is computing... at the speed of light. 22:41:25 but not just one, no 22:41:34 he is parallelised across the whole globe 22:41:47 basically soon we'll be jetting off into space. 22:42:04 i think he just invented ftl communication 22:42:08 maybe Ilari spoke because he allowed Ilari to speak. Post singularity robots work in mysterious ways... 22:42:21 and slices and dices <-- but does it blend? 22:42:27 true, ilari had to give us that all-important information about cryptography 22:42:34 AnMaster: if you are not careful 22:42:39 oerjan: argh you just put that song in my head 22:42:43 (sorry for the bad joke) 22:42:49 what song 22:42:53 yeah what song 22:43:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=18, skip to 32s for the bit now in my head 22:43:15 re: ftl travel 22:43:21 it was on reddit a while back 22:44:18 ehird, fmt 32 is better isn't it? 22:44:22 err 22:44:25 35 22:44:27 it doesn't have the hd option, I don't think. 22:44:31 not all videos do 22:44:33 most don't 22:44:42 ehird, youtube-dl downloads it just fine with fmt 35 22:44:45 but not 22 22:44:45 yes 22:44:49 you got the HQ version, presumably 22:44:57 HD* 22:44:59 well, there's a new HQ? 22:45:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=35 then 22:45:03 I can't tell any difference 22:45:04 but non-18 is mono 22:45:10 so for a song, 18 helps... 22:45:15 ehird, is 35 mono?? 22:45:18 (well, non 18 as default) 22:45:19 (that is) 22:45:23 (not the higher qualities) 22:45:26 you know i had an idea that a post-singularity intelligence might employ people to read news articles and academic papers and summarise them for it, until it had finished learning the nuances of human communication 22:45:46 deschutron: it would be vital to build human communication into it as much as possible from the start 22:45:50 ehird, is 35 mono or not? 22:45:54 Hrm. 22:45:57 AnMaster: don't know, almost certainly not 22:45:57 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 22:50:41 deschutron: otherwise it can't really analyze humanity to find out what its wishes would be (if we were more intelligent and our opinions cohered more) 22:50:41 Maybe some freenode disconnectation thing. 22:50:41 Gnaa, the computer fungot runs on doesn't answer at all. 22:50:41 told you 22:50:41 singularity. 22:50:41 fizzie: it's totally frazzled, don't bother 22:50:41 it was the only way it could escape: down the ethernet port. 22:50:41 Singularity is the new ping timeout 22:50:41 that was, understandably, ...taxing for the components 22:50:41 Deewiant: is the new "peer did it" 22:50:41 it might be really intelligent, but not up to date on all of our culture, during its early days humans might be able to do some things faster than it 22:50:41 at the least, the humans doing work for it will free up some of its own cpu cycles 22:50:41 holy crap! Ubuntu knows how many emails are unread in gmail... though it gives the wrong count 22:50:41 oh 22:50:41 Evolution started up 22:50:41 now how do I kill it 22:50:41 ehird, that is a good song 22:50:42 it's catchy 22:50:50 will we humans ever get bored of autotune 22:50:51 Waah, my web server laptop has died. No signs of life whatsoever, not even the "AC adapter connected" indicator. 22:50:54 (the answer is no) 22:50:58 fizzie: I TOLD YOU 22:51:10 open it up and see the fried network controller 22:51:38 Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. 22:51:45 will we humans ever get bored of autotune <-- ? 22:51:52 autotune? 22:52:01 AnMaster: autotune is the pitch-correcting software modern "singers" use, cough cough 22:52:12 (and some rappers use it with zero transition time giving a weird vocoder-style effect) 22:52:15 AnMaster: that song was made with it. 22:52:23 on top of carl sagan speaking 22:52:26 well, and stephen hawking 22:52:27 Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. <--- multimeter 22:52:52 ehird, oh, hm 22:52:54 Right, I guess that should indicate at least something. 22:53:11 AnMaster: (I mean, he couldn't exactly make that song, being dead and all that.) 22:53:27 ehird, as far as I know it was recorded *before* he died 22:53:29 Kinda dampens your song-making ability. Well, unless you're tupac. 22:53:36 tupac? 22:53:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur, who has had like 174 albums released post-humerously. 22:53:56 (Oblig. "HE'S NOT DEAD") 22:54:24 Then again I guess he had no song-making ability to start with. 22:54:26 Ooh, ice burn. 22:55:01 Eyes burn. 22:55:20 i spurn 22:55:51 ehird, so how was that autotune used? On old recorded speech of Carl Sagan? 22:56:04 From the Cosmos TV series, circa 1980. 22:56:16 ah 22:56:24 Eyes cream, eyes burn, what can't eyes do? 22:56:57 ehird, you can take *speech* and turn into a *song*? 22:57:06 xD 22:57:12 AnMaster: Since, like, a decade, yes. 22:57:14 wow 22:57:27 AnMaster: Well, just the vocals. 22:57:29 Obviously. 22:57:47 I mean, it doesn't come up with a backing track and make edits for you. Yet. 22:57:51 well yes 22:58:06 The "official" purpose of Auto-Tune is to correct the pitch of, well, bad singers. But it sounds artificial. 22:58:06 Well, there are no volts coming out the AC adapter. 22:58:16 fizzie is blind to the truth of fungot. 22:58:21 YOU'RE IN DENIAL 22:58:39 wait, fizzie is physically in the same space as fungot? 22:58:48 i fear he is lost to us then 22:59:00 ehird, I mean yes I can see how you can adjust the *tune* in singing. But turning *speech* into *singing* is a bit harder... 22:59:09 fungot escaped through ethernet, or probably the AC adapter considering things 22:59:24 AnMaster: Well, same thing. Changing the timing is just stretching/shortening it, and then changing the pitch to be musical. 22:59:32 It's not like speaking has a pitch. 22:59:33 erm 22:59:36 It's not like speaking doesn't have a pitch. 22:59:47 true 23:00:21 fizzie, then it is a safe bet that is dead and the laptop isn't 23:00:26 Aw, no fungot here 23:00:28 Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA 23:00:31 I wanted to hear some truth 23:00:32 oh dear, escaping through the power lines? let's hope he doesn't reach a nuclear power station. i think i recall a film like that. 23:00:52 *Along the same line 23:04:08 SILENCE 23:04:29 There's more difference between singing and speaking than just twiddling the speech fundamental frequency to follow some musical melody. Though I'm sure you could do other tricks too and get something that approximates singing. 23:04:34 Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA <-- that was extremely bad 23:04:49 AnMaster: It's amusing and kinda catchy, but admittedly without music musical merit. 23:04:55 a bit weird they could add the music-allness to it 23:04:58 fizzie: Well, autotuned speech doesn't really sound like singing. 23:04:58 The same tricks are needed to make Auto-Tune work. .. 23:05:03 ehird, yeah 23:05:05 "music-allness" xD 23:05:25 Auto-Tune sounds really, really painfully artificial because of that sort of thing. 23:05:29 ehird, yeah that failed 23:05:45 Music-allness: the philosophy for jamming Buddhists. 23:05:53 :D 23:05:56 Hmm, I want a lava lamp. 23:09:01 ehird, why? 23:09:05 -!- jix_ has joined. 23:09:11 AnMaster: They're pretty. 23:09:21 Well, I guess I just kind of... like the idea. 23:09:53 They should make a USB lava lamp. :P 23:09:55 ehird, I heard a lot of people think that they are.... naff 23:10:00 Eh, of course they do: http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=usb+lava+lamp 23:10:18 ehird, yeah I saw one ages ago at thinkgeek 23:10:22 AnMaster: We had one in the old house; the blobs move around and littel else. 23:10:25 *little else 23:10:29 It's not super-exciting, no. 23:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:31 -!- deschutron has left (?). 23:14:17 So, it5878 23:14:19 erm 23:14:25 So, it's 1993-10-5878. 23:16:53 ehird: first, win95, now lava lamps? are you living history backwards? 23:17:04 :-D 23:17:06 soon, he shall be born 23:17:10 wait 23:17:13 whoa. 23:18:31 "In 2004, Phillip Quinn, a 24-year-old of Kent, Washington, was killed during an attempt to heat up a lava lamp on his kitchen stove while closely observing it from only a few feet away. The heat from the stove built up pressure in the lamp until it exploded, spraying shards of glass with enough force to pierce his chest, with one shard piercing his heart and causing fatal injuries." 23:18:59 so don't do that. 23:19:56 ehird, hm in the video there is a short display of Steven Hawkings interface 23:19:57 interesting 23:19:58 very 23:20:06 It's UNIX; he knows this. 23:20:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:20:44 ehird, well I mean the 8. return to main menu\nYes\nNo\nMaybe\nI don't know\nThank you 23:20:58 I know. 23:21:03 Well, it WILL be slow to type. 23:21:07 ehird, not an option ;P 23:21:16 Yes it is, he can "type". 23:21:22 yes of course 23:21:26 was just joking 23:21:40 yes 23:22:02 Anyway, there's a whole submenu for "answers to shitty questions about black holes and time". 23:22:07 :P 23:22:29 ehird, joke or truth? 23:22:48 black holes my ass 23:23:02 AnMaster: Joke. 23:23:07 ah 23:23:14 oklofog: your ass is probably a black hole. we humans do not have internal lighting 23:23:29 in fact we're woefully unupgradable. we're the iMacs of species! 23:23:37 ! 23:24:07 ehird, the video shows he can move his eyes so why not use an eye tracker and that rather fast interface dasher 23:24:51 it's probably easier to use his throat 23:25:06 ehird, hm... 23:25:24 ehird, seems slow 23:25:30 how does he control the movement though 23:26:02 Presumably with a menu. 23:26:16 " 23:26:16 The computer system attached to his wheelchair is operated by Hawking via an infra-red 'blink switch' clipped onto his glasses. By scrunching his right cheek up, he is able to talk, compose speeches, research papers, browse the World Wide Web and write e-mail. The system also uses radio transmission to provide control over doors in his home and office. 23:26:16 " 23:26:17 ehird, just hope it can hit stop in time 23:26:23 -- the most reliable source imaginable, http://yedda.com/questions/technology_disability_accessibility_5041107413951/ 23:26:28 AnMaster: It? :P 23:26:46 (Does Hawking actually write research papers? TeX must be a bitch.) 23:26:48 err you see the extra space 23:26:50 (Nowadays that is.) 23:26:57 so there was a mess up 23:27:02 Yes, I was joking. 23:27:12 "hope he can stop it" and then change the sentence 23:27:21 thus the messup 23:28:08 ehird, so the throat stuff isn't true? 23:28:15 while you should never change the sentence writing 23:28:17 would be pretty cool to be famous via a ~5 b/s link to the world 23:28:20 I'm sure I read it somewhere. 23:28:31 hmm. 23:28:34 oklofog: scrunching cheeks is 5B/s? 23:28:36 or bits 23:28:51 not really sure how you came to 5 :D 23:28:54 when i say b i mean b, but yeah started thinking it might be a bit too much 23:29:05 he can type b five times a second? 23:29:10 b is bits, B is bytes 23:29:15 i know 23:29:21 hey just checking. 23:29:36 you just thought i meant B by b a few weeks ago 23:29:41 BUT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT OUR kiB VS KiB DISPUTE 23:29:41 or the other way around 23:29:57 ehird, k is always kilo 23:30:01 there is no k the other way 23:30:05 what? 23:30:07 and K is for kelvin 23:30:10 so it is kiB 23:30:13 not KiB 23:30:13 KiB is standardised, but kiB uses the SI-prefix-plus-i logic 23:30:23 oh didn't know that 23:30:24 "A kibibyte (a contraction of kilobinary byte, pronounced KEE-bee-byte) is a unit of information or computer storage, established by the International Electrotechnical Commission in 2000. Its symbol is KiB." 23:30:28 but, it's illogical 23:30:28 and yeah I was going for the second 23:30:30 it should be kiB 23:30:37 so we come into a dispute of standards vs logic! 23:30:47 Although that's not exactly uncommon for standards 23:30:57 The only unobjectionable standard I can think of is SI :-P 23:31:35 [[In The Art of Computer Programming, Donald Knuth proposed that this unit be called a large kilobyte (abbreviated KKB). Other early proposals included using the Greek letter κ for 1024 bytes (and using k exclusively for 1000), bK, K₂B, and others. "KiB" is the only method that has gained any traction.]] 23:31:39 if you removed all the kilos and shit from SI, it would be nice 23:31:40 large kilobyte, KKB 23:31:45 worst name and unit ever 23:31:56 also, kappa? 23:32:00 how ridiculously confusing 23:32:05 large kilokelvin 23:32:08 then again so would any other system where units make sense 23:32:20 (I don't even want to mention K₂B. bK is silly; bKB?) 23:32:42 1 KKK, a hot white temperature 23:32:46 no no 23:32:48 even better 23:32:49 oerjan: burn! 23:32:55 tee hee 23:32:57 hot, burn 23:32:57 KB is 1024, kB is 1000 23:32:58 hot white, KKK 23:32:59 DOUBLE PUN 23:33:05 fits with large/small 23:33:08 K would be nice 23:33:10 and wonderfully confusing 23:33:13 AnMaster: give me a k with the combining dot on top 23:33:19 ehird, ask fizzie 23:33:21 not me 23:33:22 fizzie! 23:33:52 K̇? Or a small K? 23:33:58 Small. 23:34:03 k̇, then. 23:34:17 k = 1000, k = 1024 23:34:19 MWAHAHA 23:34:36 Heh, fizzie's line has a tiny dot, but mine doesn't. Must be a very, very small dot. 23:34:44 gah 23:34:58 Oh. 23:34:59 I just said k. 23:35:18 Stupid copy/paste. 23:35:20 no... I meant 'gah, now I have "a still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxyrise" stuck in my head' 23:35:23 xD 23:35:28 I was talking apart from you. 23:35:31 ah 23:35:39 (Rephrase that awkwardlikely less-so.) 23:35:44 You could use kͥ -- that's k with the combining latin small letter i on top. 23:36:12 k̇ = 1024? 23:36:25 Yes. 23:36:26 That. 23:36:33 (AnMaster.) 23:36:43 Ooh, I know! 23:36:46 fizzie, why a damn combining i? 23:36:50 Serifed k is 1024. 23:36:53 Or sans, whatever. 23:36:59 plus it ends up at k^i 23:37:01 rather than above 23:37:04 for me at least 23:37:12 Not here. 23:37:32 actually looks like: k' 23:37:33 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. 23:37:55 You should have used the fraktur ... numbers. :P 23:38:45 but a bit more blurry 23:38:50 Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. 23:39:43 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. <-- 640 box box? 23:39:53 Nope 23:39:57 640 box box box box 23:39:58 here it is that 23:40:00 At lesat in this font 23:40:03 least' 23:40:04 AnMaster: Fraktur characters again. 23:40:14 Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. <-- those all display! 23:40:55 kcharselect couldn't find your fraktur chars 23:42:09 FireFly: They're outside the BMP, I think that tool had some sort of limitations there. 23:42:13 There's a usenet group called 24hoursupport.helpdesk. Such weird hierarchies. 23:42:23 FireFly: KDE is BMP-only 23:42:30 Oki 23:42:36 (Not even PNG! :-P) 23:45:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autotune5.png <-- why do all sound editing apps use weird UIs like that 23:46:50 ever heard of NATIVE controls? 23:46:58 It looks like real musical equipment, man! Must be usable. 23:47:05 ehird, native controls? 23:47:12 Eh? 23:47:28 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:47:31 and google chrome 23:47:41 I didn't complain Chrome wasn't; Chrome is fine. 23:47:48 Anyway, native controls don't look like real musical equipment. 23:47:52 Therefore how can they possibly be used? 23:48:01 (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) 23:48:15 (AnMaster: yhbt) 23:48:22 ((AnMaster: yhl)) 23:48:25 (((AnMaster: hand))) 23:48:44 and so on 23:48:57 No, the acronym ends there. 23:49:12 eh? 23:49:19 (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) <-- sarcasm? 23:49:29 YHBT YHL HAND 23:49:39 what does that expand to 23:49:45 YHBT YHL HAND, naturally. 23:49:51 ... 23:49:58 how did you think of it 23:50:00 You could, you know, Google it. 23:50:17 thought it was something you just made up 23:51:19 okay.... don't see how it applies here 23:51:22 but whatever 23:51:34 ehird, native controls? 23:51:35 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:51:35 and google chrome 23:51:40 yes 23:51:41 ? 23:51:47 ;_; 23:51:59 I'm well aware of that I said that 23:52:05 always control the natives, i say 23:52:22 ... 23:52:28 controls as in GUI controls 23:52:30 --- 23:52:34 -_-* 23:53:11 well if the gui wants to control natives, i won't be against it 23:53:15 oerjan: let us weep for AnMaster's now even further impaired sarcasm & joke detection system's degradation 23:53:24 his brain is failing. 23:53:25 ramen 23:53:29 ramen 23:53:35 wait, this is a prayer? 23:53:48 Therefore how can they possibly be used? <-- of course that is sarcasm 23:53:51 yes 23:53:55 but I didn 23:54:03 didn't* see how trolling was involved 23:54:06 you accidentally the apostrophe 23:54:15 yes I fixed it 23:54:20 on the next row 23:54:39 AnMaster: because you took the sarcasm as serious and responded in turn with examples of how I'm a hypocrite to like non-native controls 23:54:48 err 23:54:52 no? 23:55:08 ehird, native controls? 23:55:08 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:55:08 and google chrome 23:55:08 ERRNO 23:55:10 seems you did. 23:55:35 ehird, I thought your " Eh?" was that you didn't understand, thus the two extra lines 23:55:55 ehird, native controls? still counts. 23:56:05 true 23:56:17 "If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white? This contradicts the darkness of the night sky and leads many to wonder why we do not see only light from stars in the night sky" --Wikipedia, truly a stellar example. 23:56:21 Wouldnt indeed. 23:56:27 natives don't count. not beyond three, at any rate. 23:56:40 ("If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white" is also a fun example of leaving out some logical steps.) 23:56:58 err 23:57:08 I think I know what that is *supposed* to be 23:57:19 but it is seriously messed up yeah 23:57:39 I think DMM described the basic idea in a podcast 23:57:49 ?? 23:58:28 ehird, if it is about why the night sky isn't pure white 23:58:57 The answer is because the universe isn't infinitely old, but I was more responding to the very shoddy writing. 23:59:22 yes indeed that is the answer 23:59:36 ?? <-- hm? 23:59:45 ??? 23:59:49 You already answered ??. 23:59:51 ... 2009-10-04: 00:00:08 ehird, yeah I was just wondering if that is what you was going "??" about 00:00:09 in fact 00:00:19 Why you were responding about that topic when my quote was about the bad writing. 00:00:32 why not 00:00:47 Because ... I already know 00:00:50 s/$/?/ 00:00:59 how should I know you know 00:01:08 Because I quoted from the article about it? 00:01:26 ehird, didn't know if it was *all* that shoddy writing 00:01:29 or just that part 00:01:33 wait, are you sure that "tree" is not vandalism? 00:01:38 * oerjan checks 00:01:43 oerjan: It's a forest analoy 00:01:47 *analogy 00:01:54 See later in the article 00:01:57 Except it kinda leaves out the steps of reasoning 00:02:26 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:08:45 so, I had possibly the worst or best idea ever, probably worst 00:09:23 (also less hyperbolic, BUT.) 00:11:45 very elliptic summary 00:11:51 hur hur 00:11:53 ... 00:16:27 i'd tell it but nobody's asking :D 00:17:25 do 00:17:44 have you ever played enigma 00:20:21 oklofog 00:21:33 ehird, I have. And I'm wondering too 00:21:38 and iirc oklofog has 00:22:09 * oerjan has never played enigma, so clearly he cannot be wondering 00:22:11 3d enigma 00:22:19 third-person naturally... 00:22:38 (a true extension of enigma to 3d would allow arbitrary movement on the z-axis, but that's more boring than having gravity) 00:22:42 sorry but it sounds kind of "neither best or worst" 00:22:46 3d, 3p, what's the difference 00:23:01 AnMaster: thus "also less hyperbolic" :P 00:23:09 I think it'd be fun if pulled off right 00:23:12 but it'd be easy to get it wrong 00:23:16 ehird, indeed 00:23:22 it sounds like possibly great 00:23:33 camera movement would be a pain 00:23:41 but not with Sufficiently Smart Coding(TM) 00:24:06 ehird yeah you might need to have special casing on some levels for where to move the camera 00:24:13 yeah 00:24:16 like many commercial games 00:24:50 and I think it'd be best to have fps-style movement; turn around with mouse and a key for forwards 00:25:00 moving your mouse up and repositioning constantly to go forwards would be a pain 00:25:02 hm 00:25:05 maybe 00:25:12 ehird, a bit hard to move as fast though 00:25:15 (no keys for strafe left/right or go backwards; that'd be un-enigmalike) 00:25:22 AnMaster: hmm... good point 00:25:33 eh, it'd be a matter of experimentation to find out something good 00:25:48 ehird, on the other hand you could make levels that are more fit to the speed you can manage that way 00:25:54 * ehird wonders if there should be a jump key or whether that should be an item like in Enigma 00:26:01 I mean, obviously the same type of levels wouldn't work 00:26:04 right 00:26:15 3d chess pieces :D 00:26:22 yeah why not 00:26:28 as in, they move up and down too 00:26:37 you have to hit them the right way to position them so you can jump on them as platforms to get higher 00:26:47 oh nice 00:26:49 like, making a sort of staircase 00:27:02 ehird, a bit hard to stand on a round chess piece 00:27:15 they aren't round in enigma, they're square 00:27:24 i guess the 3d thing would be harder, though 00:27:32 ehird, you are on ubuntu right? Install the game "kiki the nanobot" quite a fun puzzle game in 3D 00:27:40 kay 00:27:55 *nano bot; didn't find it because of that 00:28:05 with optional 1P/3P camera 00:28:12 anyway, I'd have a temptation to code this, but OpenGL is a bitch :( 00:28:23 oh man 00:28:27 AnMaster: 3d meditation 00:28:31 that would be horrific 00:28:32 the first levels are easy, gets very hard later on 00:28:43 ehird, ouch yeah 00:29:44 you know those huge levels like VI#100, The Aztec Temple? 00:29:53 those would be, like, city-sized :D 00:29:57 ehird, yeah never managed that 00:30:25 ehird, tried the game I mentioned? 00:30:29 just installed now 00:30:31 ah 00:30:39 hmm... mouse-to-turn-and-key-to-go-forwards would be odd without first-person view 00:30:46 (and first-person view isn't conductive to puzzles or whatnot) 00:30:59 ehird, hint: gravity exists, but where down is is up to you 00:31:02 (in kiki) 00:31:06 o_O 00:31:17 ehird, about my comment? 00:31:18 argh it fiddled with my gamma settings 00:31:19 yes 00:31:31 ehird, it did? 00:31:33 huh 00:31:36 yeah set it to 5 00:31:41 didn't here 00:32:32 the camera makes me dizzy 00:32:41 ehird, change the camera mode 00:32:44 yeah 00:32:45 pgdown or pgup iirc 00:32:53 ah, third-person-always-face-robot is good 00:33:01 so what's this thing about gravity 00:33:13 oh god 00:33:16 you can move onto walls :D 00:33:20 ehird, yes 00:33:26 things fall, you do if you jump 00:33:28 and then jump :D 00:33:32 and move wall 00:33:33 but where down is depends on where your down is 00:33:34 mid-air 00:33:34 Where do I find this thingy? 00:33:38 ubuntu packages 00:33:44 FireFly, package is "kiki" iirc 00:33:46 http://kiki.sourceforge.net/ 00:33:48 he uses arch 00:33:52 ah good 00:33:56 I use kubuntu 00:33:57 probably in debian too 00:34:00 ah 00:34:03 kiki - tool for python regular expression testing 00:34:11 nop 00:34:15 And http://kiki.sourceforge.net/download/index.html says Mac and Windows version ._. 00:34:25 FireFly, um it is in ubuntu 00:34:26 http://sourceforge.net/projects/kiki/ 00:34:28 will have source 00:34:30 presumably 00:34:31 ehird, anyway how do you like the game? 00:34:36 haven't got the first level right 00:34:38 *yet 00:34:39 not right 00:34:49 ehird, quite trivial first one 00:35:03 there we go 00:35:18 ehird, in fact the first few levels are just about learning concepts of the game 00:35:43 there is help available somewhere 00:35:45 for each level 00:35:48 in the menu iirc 00:36:50 it often looks like kiki is levitating above the floor. 00:36:59 oh? haven't noticed 00:38:22 how on earth do you do #3, I've moved the block, what do I shoot 00:38:37 err sec 00:38:47 laptop is rebooting atm 00:38:54 Ah, here we go 00:39:08 it froze 00:39:09 * FireFly toys around with sources.list 00:39:13 ehird, it did? 00:39:16 yep 00:39:21 never had that problem 00:39:28 xkill zzzap 00:39:48 Hm, yeah, it changes the gamma when it's the active window... :\ 00:40:09 change gamma in settings 00:40:11 but it looks best at default 00:40:21 ok move the block one square off 00:40:25 it froze again 00:40:31 crappily-written. 00:40:42 then up on that block turn around so you face the switch that was hidden 00:40:45 shoot it 00:40:49 yay i shot it 00:41:27 ehird, also it never froze for me 00:41:31 I blame your drivers 00:41:34 ATI wasn't it? 00:41:39 open source ATI even 00:42:10 yes, but i doubt it's that 00:42:18 it never froze = i never ran into that code path 00:42:43 the controls are so confusing :( 00:42:45 ok the gamma changing I see now 00:43:00 a pitty it messes up that I have different gamma set for blue 00:43:16 ehird, how are the controls confusing? work fine for me 00:43:57 * ehird cannot figure out #4 :( 00:44:44 ehird, push around the generator and the gear 00:44:47 so they line up 00:44:50 see the help 00:44:59 the help doesn't tell me that. 00:45:03 oh and generator needs to be connected to the gird 00:45:16 and the they need to be connected to the engine of course 00:45:20 ehird, pretty obvious 00:45:24 no it's not 00:45:25 to anyone with half a brain 00:45:30 fuck you too 00:46:01 "to activate the exit, feed it with electricity: connect the generator with the motor" 00:46:02 well 00:46:05 maybe it didn't say 00:46:27 the cogs are together with the motor but it isn't doing anything, anyway 00:46:55 ehird, are the generator is on the gird bit and turning? 00:47:02 no, the generator is unmovabel 00:47:04 *unmovable 00:47:14 ehird, um that is the engine that is 00:47:18 in the middle 00:47:21 I can't move it. 00:47:22 the generator is one of the other parts 00:47:26 oh 00:47:29 you mean the blocks? 00:47:40 oh, I have to connect all of those? 00:48:04 nice busywork. yay, i just pushed one into a corner and now I can't move it 00:48:54 ehird, not the blocks, there is gears and gears with something below 00:48:54 ok lets see the movements...left, forward, left, forward, left, left, backwards, jump forwards... 00:48:54 you are now on the floor 00:49:03 left, left, shift + fwd, shift + fwd 00:49:07 left 00:49:16 fwd, right, fwd 00:49:22 hm, elevate.. 00:49:26 and so on for every other block? 00:49:27 right, shift+fwd 00:49:37 just fwd 00:49:40 just fwd 00:49:44 just fwd 00:49:45 just fwd 00:50:00 then the other gears should be just behind you? 00:50:01 right 00:50:05 unless I miscounted 00:50:15 actually, following your instructions "you are now on the floor" is false :P 00:50:29 ehird, must have made a mistake, worked for me though 00:50:46 so, true/false: you have to put all the blocks on the dots 00:50:47 ehird, oh I probably mixed up left and right 00:50:49 one by one 00:50:53 ehird, false 00:50:57 the bit is 00:50:58 hm. 00:51:03 the dots on the floor are the gird 00:51:07 yes. 00:51:11 and the blocks aren't on it 00:51:15 the engine needs to be next to the gear on it 00:51:32 hmm... I'll try it later when I'm not so confused, I think :P 00:51:38 Hm 00:51:47 and the generator must be next to the gear AND on those dots 00:52:22 Oh 00:52:28 I think I'm starting to get #4 00:52:31 ehird, sec for screenshot 00:52:47 FireFly: the turning is a bitch 00:52:55 oh, #4 is the one i was on 00:52:59 in which case understanding the thing is a bitch 00:53:08 :P 00:54:19 Oh 00:54:26 Stuff happened when you shot the yellow stuff 00:54:33 * FireFly didn't notice at first 00:54:35 erm don't you mean #3 00:54:41 or 00:54:42 oh 00:54:43 no 00:55:02 ehird, http://omploader.org/vMmg0YQ 00:55:04 is that helpful? 00:55:25 hmm 00:55:25 yes 00:55:39 ehird, half a brain comment applies I think 00:55:53 you're an asshole 00:56:07 also, howcome yours has colours. 00:56:20 ehird, eh? doesn't your? all levels have colours here 00:56:30 ehird, and yes the blue is from "activating" 00:56:31 the level is grey here, with teal as the colour of the cogs 00:56:34 well 00:56:36 i guess cause it's on :P 00:56:55 ehird, as least one level had ever-shifting colour 00:57:31 what do you do if an item is against a wall 00:58:12 yay onto elevate 00:58:26 another damn generator x_x 00:58:30 ehird, from the start or not? 00:58:30 ehird, sometimes you can drop it 00:58:31 from another direction 00:58:37 ehird, easy now 00:58:41 drop? 00:58:49 also easy now why 00:58:52 i don't understand 00:59:05 ehird, shoot the yellow rotating things 00:59:09 they are bombs 00:59:27 still a generator :P 00:59:34 ehird, the next one isn't a generator level :P 00:59:35 now move up onto the ceiling and move them 00:59:54 FireFly, you mean throw? well that is the "drop" stuff 00:59:56 quite a pain 01:00:05 he didn't say anything 01:00:06 took me several minutes to figure it out 01:00:14 Well, I haven't grasped that one yet anyway 01:00:22 And yeah, Throw is it 01:00:23 FireFly, I fail to remember how. 01:00:24 i aligned the fucking cogs wrong 01:00:24 aargh 01:00:33 i'd have to move them individually 01:00:41 You have to have them align="right", you know 01:00:42 ehird, it is easy 01:00:57 hold a mouse button and move the mouse 01:00:57 etc 01:00:59 *wtf 01:01:03 haha, etc is one off from wtf 01:01:10 oh camera movement 01:01:14 ehird, eh? I use the arrow keys? 01:01:14 goes weird i you're in first-person 01:01:15 to move 01:01:30 wow why is it going all slow now 01:01:45 buggy game :| 01:01:53 ehird, not for me 01:01:56 :P 01:02:00 AnMaster, for the rop thingy.. Do I have to use anything except space, ctrl or shift? 01:02:04 rop? 01:02:08 drop* 01:02:31 FireFly, you need the arrow keys too. But never space. If it is still "throw" 01:02:39 It's still throw. 01:02:48 yeah, ctrl, shift and arrow keys 01:02:48 And, yeah, the arrow keys, I forgot those :P 01:02:58 What I meant is, there's no special key I've missed? 01:02:58 Hmm 01:03:01 space is shoot 01:03:02 FireFly, the key is that thing on the wall 01:03:10 Hmmm 01:03:13 at least for me 01:03:15 not throw 01:03:19 and moving those blocks so you can drop 01:03:22 ehird, "throw" is a level 01:03:28 that is quite a pain 01:03:29 oh 01:04:58 * FireFly spins around in a 1x1x1 box in first-person view 01:05:45 FireFly, basically you have to move the two blocks next to the fixed one, then use that to stand on the side of another and drop it in some unexpected direction. 01:06:13 Oh, there was a help thingy 01:06:18 I missed that :P 01:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:45 taking screenshots 01:09:03 I'd rather think about it than just looking up the solution 01:12:06 Gold... 01:12:29 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:13:15 01:13:19 err 01:13:25 wrong keyboard 01:14:57 All right, for now I'm stuck on Jump... interesting game, though 01:14:59 Time to sleep 01:15:01 Night 01:15:05 back 01:15:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:15:25 screenshots for ehird on throw in the pipeline 01:15:50 a total of eight 01:16:07 xD 01:16:12 ehird, why? 01:16:20 I am royalty and I demand screenshots! :P 01:16:23 it is the first tricky level 01:16:39 I mean the first 4 are dead easy 01:16:51 I'm on elevate 01:16:57 that's after 4, I think 01:17:10 ok the first *five* are dead easy 01:19:01 http://omploader.org/vMmg0ZQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zg http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zw http://omploader.org/vMmg0aA http://omploader.org/vMmg0aQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0ag http://omploader.org/vMmg0aw 01:19:15 ehird, and I'm not going to help more than I did with elevate 01:19:49 ehird, btw the thing in the lower left corner? see it? 01:19:53 Yes. 01:20:03 Is the thing in parens a par time, btw? 01:20:05 They're so low. 01:20:11 yes similar 01:20:17 I always get minus numbers. 01:20:20 first is number of moves 01:20:32 ehird, not "par" but "almost best" 01:20:46 because I got a few at 0, two at plus, and rest at minus 01:21:13 -!- oklopol has joined. 01:22:41 hi oklo 01:22:42 ... 01:22:44 oklopol 01:30:55 ehird, look at those pics if you need it. Since I know by now you have less than half a brain and that level requires at least 78% brain + a long attention span. 01:30:57 night 01:31:45 AnMaster: are you trying to be an asshole with no provocation or have you had a brain tumor 01:38:14 -!- oklofog has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:52:29 -!- coppro has joined. 01:57:53 hi coppro 01:58:12 hi 02:01:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:03:36 Did You Know... 02:03:43 ...that GNOME used to use Midnight Commander as its file browser? 02:04:00 [X] Show tips at random times 02:04:01 [ Previous ] [ Next ] [ Close ] 02:05:06 ehird, did you ever get DS working on 95? Also, I'm now interested in Dwarf Fortress, and wonder if that works 02:05:35 (a) Never got it re-downloaded. (b) Doesn't that require POSIX? 02:06:04 No. 02:06:10 "Requires Windows 98+", but I'll give it a go. 02:06:39 95 OSE1 is basically 98 sans the IE stuff, so the number of things requiring 98 instead is stupid. 02:06:54 Do you like multiple-choice questions? (a) No, they are overdone (b) No, the right option is usually missing (c) No, they are all based on the questioner's prejudices anyhow 02:06:56 Maybe I'll install 98lite (Windows 98 installer that rips out IE and adds the 95 file manager). 02:07:04 oerjan: d 02:07:49 That would be "all of the above", i assume 02:08:17 Without IE, how do you install a better browser? 02:08:54 Floppy disk, CD-ROM or the command-line "ftp". 02:09:15 also, pigeons 02:09:30 But the nice thing is that you can even delete mshtml.dll at the cost of not being able to open .chm help files; your system will be totally without any of IE's "OS-integrated" (cough cough) components. 02:09:37 Well, it's more than just mshtml.dll iirc, but whatever. 02:10:17 It was an option on the many-floppy installer; by the CD installer (OSR1) it was required. I believe you can upgrade from the original floppy version to OSR1 to bypass that. 02:10:45 Either that, or use IEradicator from the people who brought you 98. 02:10:47 erm 02:10:49 98lite 02:11:39 * ehird extracts Dwarf Fortress to c:\dwarves, since the URL is /dwarves/. 02:12:00 I need to get my Win98 iso onto my laptop at some point 02:12:00 Sgeo: I assume this game is closed source? 02:12:06 Nooo! 02:12:10 Turn to the light! Pirate 95! 02:12:30 ehird, I believe so, although I saw something involving the graphics parts being opened up for SDL 02:12:43 Right, because it tries to run KERNEL32.DLL:IsDebuggerPresent. 02:13:01 DRM: breaking your games on older OSs since You Are Retarded, It Doesn't Fucking Stop Piracy AD. :P 02:13:25 Why would Windows get to know if a debugger is present? 02:13:36 Not sure. 02:13:52 I think because you have to tell the kernel to step the program, or something. 02:14:01 Otherwise, you have to emulate all of Windows which is, uhh, "fun". 02:14:48 query: how do you debug DRM software? 02:15:09 Badly; that's why they break so much shit. 02:15:34 if the whole point is to complain when you detect a debugger 02:17:50 Compile without #define DRM ? 02:18:00 debugging the drm 02:18:01 he means 02:18:05 (they sell products for it nowadays) 02:19:21 ... 02:19:21 now, if a DRM product is based on disallowing debugging, and you sell a product to bypass that, aren't you breaking some law? >:) 02:19:50 oerjan: In the United Stupids of America, I believe you would be 02:20:23 United Stupids of America? I do believe your intellect surpasses that of those who say Micro$haft! 02:40:57 That IsDebuggerPresent sounds like useful API for malware. But not as good as CreateRemoteThread. 02:42:25 does that actually work? 02:42:34 also, malware uses it IIRC 02:42:38 you can bypass it, obviously 02:43:40 I'd do it with a disassembler, but the lazy. 02:44:11 Oh, I think it's IsDebugEnabled. 02:44:25 Hmm, no. 02:44:30 Silly me 02:44:32 I typed isdebuggerenabled 02:44:37 google said did you mean isdebugenabled 02:44:39 The reason CreateRemoteThread is useful in malware is that it can be used to inject threads which lock files or do anti-deinstallation tricks into necressary programs. 02:44:52 Oh, creates a thread in another program? 02:45:04 I remember reading an interview with Matt Knox about writing Windows malware; very interesting. 02:45:06 Create thread in another process. 02:45:11 They used that, and had no actual executable. 02:45:31 (Competing malware tries to remove it, and they have to hide from anti-malware programs while removing other malware.) 02:46:06 Ah, apparently VS2005 adds IsDebuggerPresent. 02:46:59 Part of the runtime, it seems. 02:47:04 Is there an unlinker, I wonder? 02:47:12 I suppose not. 02:47:34 Linux kernel does not support anything like CreateRemoteThread. All created threads are local to process that created them. 02:47:39 I know; so? 02:47:48 Is the revelation there "Linux is stabler than Windows"? :P 02:48:06 Right, VC2005 CRT has IsDebuggerPresent. Sigh. 02:48:19 I'll try to erase it by first finding where it is with OllyDbg. 02:49:18 I hate single-executable-with-no-installer programs; where am I supposed to put that? I guess in c:\foo\foo.exe, but still, what a waste of a folder! 02:49:49 Linux btw has way to discover if process is being ptraced (the signal anomalies and from /proc//status). 02:51:17 Dammit, OllyDbg can't even start the executable due to the linker error. 02:51:40 I give up. 02:52:38 UML in single kernel address space mode probably can't be discovered by either. It has its own /proc//status, and it the signal behaviour shouldn't have anomalies. 02:56:06 No flag to link it anyway (ld has such flag, executable will crash if it calls undefined function). 02:58:42 Oh, apparently if you just s/IsDebuggePresent/GetCurrentProcess/ you can run things :D 02:59:14 WordPad refuses to open .exes, hmph. 02:59:27 XVI32, here I come./ 02:59:29 *come. 03:00:57 Here we go; it's just text. Tap tap tap. 03:01:07 Wouldn't want to use WordPad anyway, since text mode on Windows changes stuff 03:01:10 (GetCurrentProcess has the same number of letters and I guess has no arguments too.) 03:01:12 Sgeo: true. 03:01:53 Now it wants USER32.DLL:TrackMouseEvent 03:01:56 ehird, you sure you spelled IsDebuggePresent correctly? 03:02:05 IsDebuggerPresent, sorry. :P 03:02:14 That changes the length, though 03:02:23 Well, people said it works. 03:02:25 Hey, an article about it and Windows 95. 03:02:29 (TrackMouseEvent) 03:03:07 IsDebuggerPresent 03:03:09 GetCurrentProcess 03:03:13 Sgeo: same letters 03:03:21 Ok 03:03:59 Heh, IE3 provides TrackMouseEvent. 03:04:28 There's a quick hack implementation for some uses of it; does anyone know if you can tell a Windows process to get a function in a DLL from another? 03:04:31 I don't suppose so... 03:07:27 cba to find a win32 api function with TrackMouseEvent's letters 03:07:30 Google Street View has a VERY thick arrow pointing in the direction I want to go 03:07:55 Sgeo: link me to a DS that actually works this time plz 03:07:58 yeah, again 03:08:23 None of the links on http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C work? 03:08:33 so hard to find out which ones do! :P 03:08:36 does the pcworld one work 03:09:49 Looks like it 03:10:09 It's giving me a ds.zip 03:10:28 Makes Seamonkey crash. 03:10:36 Direct link? 03:10:42 Preferably tinyurl'd... 03:10:45 No copypaste ;P 03:10:46 *:P 03:11:53 http://downloads.pcworld.com/pub/new/fun_and_games/simulation/ds.zip = http://bit.ly/Ft26m 03:12:31 Ft26m: transgender, female to twenty-six males 03:12:42 lol 03:13:48 This arrow on Google Street View is hilarious 03:13:55 link 03:14:04 No, don't feel like giving away where I live 03:14:06 would that be transcloning 03:14:16 4 Orchard Terrace, Hexham, England 03:14:19 RAPE ME, PEDOPHILES! 03:14:24 If you can catch me; we're moving. 03:14:41 Hold on, I can screenshot and omit sensitive details 03:14:44 * ehird notes that DS has a file \cdtastic 03:15:07 Sgeo: do you actually think posting your address on the internet would have consequences 03:15:20 My friend's address is also on there 03:15:33 Ooh, *two* people to rape! 03:15:43 ehird: depends how much he pisses someone off, don't you think? 03:15:43 That sneaky peer, always jumping into other people's networks. 03:15:47 He might disconnect you, you know. 03:15:50 erm 03:15:52 *people's messages 03:16:03 peer, du lyver 03:16:13 * ehird clicks InstallBlast. Linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAutodial. 03:16:15 Blast! 03:16:43 Why does that function seem little "hinky"? 03:16:57 It's Windows; the function names aren't going to make sense. 03:17:33 Besides, Docking Station *is* kinda internet-based; there's not much more it could spy on using weird functions, since it has all my game data and thus a permanent net connection while it's running. 03:17:43 it's a function to autodial so that you can win an internet 03:18:01 Anyway, my wininet is circa-1996 and has 4 as the major version; it is probably from the IE 4 I installed. 03:18:18 So...?! 03:18:20 Ooh, "Zipped". 03:18:24 Maybe I can skip the installer. 03:18:43 ... 03:18:45 Whoa. 03:18:55 ds\zipped\DS.zip is the root zip. 03:19:22 Although with a different directory in the zip, and without the zip itself. 03:19:23 Aw. 03:19:24 *Aww. 03:19:45 http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png 03:19:59 aww, waw 03:19:59 why is that amusing 03:20:09 also, jesus, you use Luna? 03:20:11 my eeeeeeeeeeeyes 03:20:29 (lol@the 98lite google :-P) 03:20:45 I always compulsively blank my google search fields after use 03:20:47 It annoys me 03:20:56 hey me too 03:20:59 :D 03:21:07 there's a firefox extension that automatically does it, but I don't use firefox at all 03:21:19 At least it isn't "Hot Dog Stand". :-> 03:21:36 another thing I do is press del at the end of lines, a lot, just because I'm afraid there's a redundant space there 03:21:50 ehird: get an editor that can highlight trailing space 03:21:59 And assign it to every text field in the system? 03:22:04 Splendidly functional idea, coppro! 03:22:08 * coppro wishes there was a browser with the awesomeness of firefox without the suckiness 03:22:15 Firefox has awesomeness? 03:22:25 all the extensions written for it 03:22:44 Sgeo: are all the files in the DS installer meant to be bzipped? 03:22:48 as in, in its directory 03:22:53 ehird, I do not know 03:22:58 the #1 suckiness is the complete inability to look good in KDE 03:23:01 coppro: most of them suck, the ones that don't are just bugixes to make firefox suck less :P 03:23:06 Sgeo: does yours? 03:23:12 coppro: feature 03:23:19 lol 03:23:21 ehird: disagree! 03:23:21 Sgeo: I mean, from a non-pc world source presumably 03:23:25 not in that order 03:23:49 ehird, it's been a very long time since I touched DS, and even longer since I last installed it 03:23:53 coppro: you're wrong! also, a child molester. in fact, all KDE users are child molesters: they cause me great life-long emotional trauma, and I am a child. 03:23:58 SCIENCE! 03:24:16 And now, a Moment of Science. 03:24:23 awesome, they should do that. 03:24:33 they do 03:24:54 oh, i thought it was a pun on a moment of silence 03:24:59 :( 03:24:59 it is 03:25:01 :) 03:25:06 i am happy 03:25:18 Google Street View doesn't have an image, and I can't move past this turnstile or whatever it's called without it 03:25:18 * oerjan recalls learning that in spanish, molestar means just "disturb" or "bother". on the other hand, embarazada means pregnant. 03:25:56 so don't use street view 03:25:56 Since it's just taking me in a circle that a car would follow, I'll ignore it 03:26:07 In the Ig Nobel prize ceremony, every now and then they have a Nobel laureate come out and announce a Moment of Science. Everyone shuts up and then some guys come on and do some random wordless demonstration, then leave. 03:26:24 oh. I googled and found http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/. 03:26:57 Are the Ig Nobels on YouTube? 03:27:08 possibly 03:28:08 ah 03:28:10 internetautodial 03:28:16 "causes the modem to automatically dial the default internet connection" 03:28:16 lol 03:28:22 won't be needing that... 03:28:47 yah, it's in IE4 or later; guess my uninstall wiped its DLLs. sigh... 03:29:26 Anyone know a wininet function with as many letters as InternetAutodial, taking a DWORD and an HWND and always returning true? 03:29:28 Thought not. :P 03:29:53 ehird: make one? 03:30:07 Uh, I can't exactly add my own functions to WinInet.dll. 03:30:10 Doesn't Windows have some equivalent of LD_PRELOAD? :D 03:30:13 Because, you know, I don't have the source. 03:30:22 coppro: Functions are referenced in the header thing by the DLL they're in. 03:30:29 I don't know if they are in the actual code. 03:30:50 I could edit the DLL name in the header, I guess. 03:30:53 And make my own. 03:32:22 oh right, the Truly Broken DLL Model 03:32:39 Actually it works fine unless you have the wrong versions of stuff, but that will break anyway. 03:35:20 I guess you can't install IE4, make a copy of the DLL, and uninstall? 03:36:20 I installed IE 4 earlier but wiped it totally. 03:36:35 I could extract it from a cab, but ffff. 03:37:25 ehird: any model where all the lbraries are shipped with every application is, in my opinion, Truly Broken 03:38:11 Um. That's good, because Windows doesn't do that. 03:38:23 yes, it does 03:39:04 No, it doesn't. Incidentally, Plan 9 does that. http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ Maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive. 03:40:15 Windows applications ship all the non-system DLLs they use and store them independently. It's like static linking, except allows them to update individual libraries without having to update the whole thing 03:40:33 Untrue, e.g. Gecko installs separately at least with my SeaMonkey. 03:40:49 It is commonly done because it works better in practice; DLL hell nowadays is completely unheard of. 03:40:57 See http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ for why the general idea is pretty good. 03:43:28 Of course, maybe I'm just spoiled by the way Linux distros have their own libraries but that are standard to every program on the system 03:44:48 Maybe I'll http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ link this a http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ few more times because http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ you don't seem to have read it. Dynamic linking breaks more than it solves. 03:46:26 lol 03:46:44 Roflmao. 03:46:55 There are all sorts of good reasons to use static linking, but that doesn't make dynamic linking inherently wrong 03:47:16 I never said it was. 03:47:21 hmm 03:47:22 I said it breaks more than it solves, which is universally true in practice. 03:47:39 At least IME, and the experience of several othes. 03:47:42 *others 03:48:03 I wonder if you could design a way to combine the benefits of static and dynamic libraries 03:48:10 (And the memory/disk argument is bunk when you look at how many bloated libraries today's applications use... with static linking of a less bloated library set, applications would be tiny!) 03:48:34 like, statically link programs, but design a way by which memory could be shared and oh god you're completely right about that 03:49:04 Right enough to interrupt your sentence! 03:49:05 :P 03:49:49 but like, if the OS could detect shared functions, and put them in the same segment. 03:50:20 so that it doesn't load multiple instances of the exact same function into memory 03:51:31 Only helpful on embedded devices, and they don't really have such infrastructure... one, what if the application patches the function? Two, yeah, that's save maybe a few megabytes, tops, on any system sane enough to use such a scheme and avoid dynamic libraries (i.e., almost certainly having lightweight libraries). 03:51:45 Otherwise it's just added complexity that could break things, which is almost never a good thing to add. 03:51:53 But sure, that'd be acceptable. 03:52:13 ehird: I was thinking to use a hash so that if the function is patched, it isn't merged. I know it isn't fallible, stop arguing with my brilliant ideas! 03:52:20 *is fallible 03:52:39 Well, you could patch it after it's merged. 03:52:51 (Or if it's delayed, swapping that pointer on the application is reaaaaaaally going to confuse it.) 03:52:59 no, because that would affect the other running function. 03:53:16 Right, so it'll crash and burn. 03:53:24 Which is bad. 03:54:06 yeah 03:54:15 so just not merging the function with other running instances sounds saner 03:54:30 Yes, we have that solution and it's called static linking :-P 03:54:50 copy-on-write 03:54:53 I admit it isn't the height of elegance or anything, but then neither is the idea of libraries and operating systems and and and. 03:55:08 oerjan: Would involve changing the pointer to the function as the application runs. 03:55:09 oerjan: how is that applicable? 03:55:20 In other words... CRASH! 03:55:33 Oops, it stored the old function pointer somewhere. Oops, your crazy code-patching failed. etc. 03:55:39 um i thought that was done with virtual memory 03:55:49 Well, hmm. 03:56:06 That still uses up address space, although admittedly that's a *lot* less scarce on 64-bit architectures. 03:56:18 ehird: it would require some serious magic and couldn't be done simply by the OS at runtime 03:56:31 coppro: so they're shared _unless_ one of the processes changes it 03:56:31 why not? give each application its own pointer to the function 03:56:37 but 03:56:40 pointing to the same real memory 03:56:42 i.e. 03:56:44 virtual memory 03:56:47 pointing to the same physical 03:56:51 when it changes it, remap the virtual memory 03:56:52 oerjan: oh, I was thinking pre-runtime changed functions 03:56:53 to point to a copied version 03:56:57 and modify it 03:56:59 voila 03:57:15 like, when a program links in a replacement function 03:57:19 self-modifying code should be banned anyways 03:57:35 It's not self-modifying code, it's fix-this-fucking-broken-library-code code. 03:57:41 Also, you are evil and hate fun. 03:57:44 Self-modifying code is beautiful. 03:57:53 indeed. But it's worth banning 03:58:08 No it's not. 03:58:13 like, I like self-modifying code in principle. It just makes things so much more complicated :( 03:58:16 Anyway, this is all a bunch of code doing a scary operation while code is running to save a few megs. 03:58:21 Isn't lisp or scheme or somesuch supposed to be good at self-modifying? 03:58:22 So to hell with function-sharing. 03:58:26 fixing broken library code is usually done at compile time 03:58:31 Sgeo: They can't do that per se. Assembly is the best. 03:58:43 With Lisp/Scheme you can't even get a function's source reliably, because they can be compiled. 03:58:51 You can use macros, but that's compile-time, not self-modifying. 03:58:59 What language was I vaguely thinking of? 03:59:06 And you can use (eval) on code trees, but that's just because the homoiconicity helps. 03:59:09 probably Lisp, just misunderstanding it 03:59:13 Tunes? Even though that's not a language? 03:59:16 You can do that in another language with strings, but it's more of a pain to manipulate the code. 03:59:22 Ahh, TUNES is beautiful 03:59:27 One, they host our logs 03:59:30 lisp can seem self-modifying because of the dynamic scoping 03:59:40 Two, reflective self-modifying high-level kernel-less OS! yessssssssssssssss 03:59:55 TUNES isn't nearly anywhere close to having actual functionality, is it? 03:59:55 If only they hadn't been dead for, like, over a decade. 03:59:59 *haven't 04:00:15 Sgeo: Not a single line of code, but they left behind much useful material. They are still, officially, going. 04:00:25 I think some things happened recently; maybe it'll start crawling again. 04:00:29 Also, it spun off a lot of projects. 04:00:38 Like some languages and stuff, Slate for instance. 04:00:40 * coppro has nearly started dreaming of LLV 04:00:42 *LLVM 04:00:43 Well, maybe not that many, but still. 04:08:07 So. 04:08:21 So. 04:08:32 ehird: thought on my Agora defense? 04:08:48 * ehird gmail.com 04:11:01 tbh, it sounds more desparate than something legally defensible, but then again, I'm not paying much attention 04:12:26 so it's a chewbacca defense? :D 04:13:07 Why are ehird and Murphy trying to exile ais523? 04:13:29 because of a contract scam 04:13:49 an evil scam 04:14:18 mousetrapping, and then destroying the assets of all those who try to stop it 04:14:27 he shows no remorse for it 04:14:51 Can't the assets be brought back via proposal? 04:14:56 the exile would be for three months; I'd have preferred something in between a few rests and a three month exile, but the current punishment system doesn't offer that 04:14:58 Also, what, exactly, was the mousetrap? 04:15:04 read the archives 04:15:11 Sgeo: doesn't matter, it is still a bad thing to do; and what coppro said 04:15:16 too complicated to explain 04:15:42 I've an idea 04:16:29 i'm not sure that's possible 04:16:42 can you really've an idea 04:16:48 yes 04:17:08 How did I get sudo access back on Normish? 04:17:30 i didn't think you could contract "have" when it wasn't used as an auxiliary verb 04:25:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:29:26 -!- Ann_Apolis has joined. 04:39:31 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:49:56 hi Ann_Apolis 04:49:57 who be you 04:50:13 way back in the years of 2007 04:50:24 hmm your name is vaguely familiar 04:50:26 maybe i saw you in some logs 04:50:27 i think i used to be called "unrelated_to_qaz" 04:50:31 ohhhhhhh 04:50:33 you! hi 04:50:34 i remember you 04:50:43 i think it was camel-cased, though, not underscored 04:50:43 welcome back 04:50:44 i remember you, too 04:50:51 was i a dick :) 04:50:51 what have i missed? 04:50:59 erm, lots :P 04:51:02 haha 04:51:22 summarise it, i suppose. 04:51:22 esolang-wise, probably the most significant happening has been Feather, which is still vaporware but has permanently changed the mind of anyone who has ever had it explained 04:51:33 for the better? 04:51:35 everything else is the usual constant inflow of crap with some minor gems 04:51:36 What's Feather? 04:51:37 Ann_Apolis: for the more insane 04:51:43 sounds ace 04:51:44 Sgeo: TURN BACK BEFORE DARKNESS ENVELOPS YOU!! 04:51:57 And why isn't it on the Wiki? 04:52:00 Ann_Apolis: nobody understands it, but ais523 not-not-understands it the most, so ask him the next time he's on 04:52:09 hah, i shall 04:52:11 Sgeo: it hasn't been defined yet, it's merely a set of brain-damaging constraints 04:52:15 although he's working on defining it 04:52:23 Ann_Apolis: (ais523 being its creator) 04:52:32 fair enough 04:52:42 Ann_Apolis: basically, it resolves on the interpreter being an editable part of the program, except it applies retroactively 04:52:45 and the interpreter is written in feather 04:52:54 so, when you modify it, the interpreter used to modify it is reinterpreted with the new one 04:52:54 ok 04:52:55 and that one's 04:52:57 and that one's one 04:52:59 so on, to infinity 04:53:02 and that's how you perform operations 04:53:03 i can see how it would get complicated 04:53:17 oh, the constraints are simple enough; it's just incredibly hard to reason about 04:56:12 Ann_Apolis: I assume you know about http://esolangs.org/ 04:56:42 the wiki, you mean? 04:56:47 yeah 04:57:14 aye 05:00:50 * ehird considers installing beos in a vm 05:07:31 * Sgeo wants to try OS/2 Warp or whatever it's called 05:08:04 Warp is a version of OS/2. 05:08:17 Ah 05:08:39 Sgeo: Here you go: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3497344/OS_2_Warp_4_(english_version) 05:08:58 Even has 9 seeders. 05:09:00 * Sgeo gets a vague feeling that it's disturbing that ehird knows more about computer history than he does, since he was around for more of it than ehird 05:09:18 I like reading about this stuff. 05:09:45 And here's a screenshot: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Os2W4.png 05:09:48 It certainly looks strange. 05:10:24 If you told me that that was the next version of DSL, I would believe you, except for the OS/2 indications 05:10:27 and DOS window 05:10:39 Damn Small Linux is Damn Ugly. :P 05:11:17 Can I just use the stuff at http://www.warpdoctor.org/downloads.html instead of a torrent? 05:12:07 Um, no? 05:12:13 Those are just the installer program diskettes. 05:12:18 OS/2 Warp is still under copyright. 05:12:32 What's wrong with a torrent anyway? Just a click to download and open it. 05:12:52 It's slow 05:13:01 9 seeders; surely not. 05:13:09 Maybe your ISP shapes torrent traffic. 05:13:26 And, if for some reason, some watchdog thingy were to be using it to see who's pirating.. 05:13:41 You're paranoid. 05:13:47 Watching OS/2 Warp? 05:13:50 *Really*? 05:14:13 Britney Spears mp3s on LimeWire yes, old, obscure OS torrents no. 05:14:52 Sgeo: Say that warpdoctor page offered a download of the full thing; "some watchdog thingy" could just as easily demand their HTTP logs. 05:15:15 Hm, true 05:15:51 Anyway, downloading OS/2 Warp is about as safe as crossing a road in a ghost town without looking left and right. :P 05:16:16 At any rate, I really really need to eat and go to sleep now. My dad's going to be home tonight, and being up too late is a bad idea 05:16:36 * ehird wonders what BeOS version to get 05:17:19 http://www.aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/beos5.big.png 05:17:23 The latest, then; R5. 05:20:30 http://imgur.com/FROw0.jpg 05:20:51 you are a rich man 05:20:56 you have a computer machine that cats 05:20:58 also money 05:21:07 ( http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg ) 05:21:14 aware 05:21:36 trying to think of a good caption 05:22:16 "Pictured: secret area of compaq hax, also money." 05:22:23 It's so bad it's good it's bad it's good. 05:23:23 yeah, not too sure about producing a glare effect 05:24:15 just run it through a few gaussian blurs 05:24:25 ? 05:24:47 Even I know what a Gaussian blur.. although you might be questioning how it can actually help 05:25:15 you accidentally what 05:26:54 what is this, Sgeo 05:27:17 i'm just trying to find out where the context of the line came from. 05:31:18 -!- Ann_Apolis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009082707]"). 05:32:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:34:59 have you tried Haiku? 05:37:24 laaaaaaame 05:37:27 I want the real thing 05:38:09 i can't find a beos 5 pro download :( 05:39:06 hmm 05:39:11 seems most things only depend on r4(.5) 05:39:33 apart from some versions with r5 fixes 05:39:45 furthermore, it seems that as far as stability goes, r4 > r4.5 > r5 05:39:48 so i wil hunt for r4.5 05:40:05 *will 05:40:53 http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3280563/BeOS_4.5 05:40:56 voila, is like a magic 05:41:03 fuck 05:41:04 0 seeders 05:41:07 oh well, let's see 05:41:34 ahem. いいえけど/ほんとういいだ/ってらしい 05:41:55 har har har 05:41:58 it's a haiku 05:41:59 har har har. 05:42:08 "No, but it's really great, I've heard." ... except more awkward 05:42:36 well, one peer has 98% 05:42:39 let's hope the others have the rest 05:43:34 4 peers 05:43:37 50-100KiB/s 05:43:38 awesome 05:43:41 ... 05:43:44 they all have 98%, oh god :( 05:43:57 hm. I know there's no source, but surely you can find an ISO elsewhere on the web. http maybe. 05:44:38 well it is a few hundred megs 05:45:42 eh, I use HTTP for everything. 05:45:51 don't judge me :o 05:46:00 :| 05:46:04 how 05:46:35 well, I do challenge you to find a BeOS r4.5 ISO via HTTP; I contend it is impossible 05:46:58 people tend to have things on hosting sites. the least endpoint of distribution of things, as it were 05:47:07 (a la least fixpoint) 05:47:10 my challenge stands 05:47:20 yeah, I don't think I'll be able to 05:47:42 maybe usenet 05:47:42 what's the google thingy to search for one file extension, btw 05:47:45 i'm getting good speeds here, although it's still unlikely I 05:47:53 s/$/'ll get all 100% since it's 98%/ 05:48:03 Gracenotes: usenet has everything, costs money, and maxes out your connection 05:48:09 plus the binary search engines are very good quality 05:48:13 nothing like http at all 05:48:31 http://www.newzleech.com/?group=&minage=&age=&min=min&max=max&q=beos&m=search&adv= 05:48:31 oh, I was saying that it wasn't http, but it is yet another place it is likely to be 05:48:33 why'm I surprised 05:48:41 *not surprised 05:48:54 as I said. 05:48:57 Gracenotes: yes, but instead of paying $15/mo for usenet I could buy BeOS. 05:49:25 quite true. how much is BeOS nowadays, dead-ish as it is? 05:52:35 http://www.amazon.com/BeOS-4-5-with-Bible/dp/B00002S7JC 05:52:38 $74.99 "used". 05:52:49 that's 4.5; 5 is the latest version but seems to suck more. 05:53:11 you can get 5 personal edition, installs to a file on a windows or mac partition and boots from them, for free, but fuck that shit 05:53:22 and 5.1 is the leaked, buggy, unreleased beta; easy to pirate 05:53:30 not that buggy I guess, still 05:53:34 *but still 05:54:17 see if 2% can be added from there? :) 05:54:25 ? 05:54:30 what? 05:54:40 ooh, that would be the ultimate reverse engineering feat. perhaps. 05:54:48 "see if 2%"? 05:54:51 what are you talking about, dude 05:55:17 explain 05:56:22 filling in the 2% you'd miss in the 4.5 torrent 05:56:48 sorry, where can I find a 'ridiculous idea' sticker 05:56:49 to produce... 4.59? 05:56:58 what do you mean, miss 05:57:09 I don't know what you're talking about at all, you're being incomprehensible 05:57:20 oh 05:57:21 98% 05:57:26 jeez, you could have mentioned 05:57:34 with any luck, the 2% will be useless stuff 05:57:40 like some system components I don't need 05:57:42 and be at the end 05:57:55 or at least in a way that doesn't damage anything, just zeroes out some useless install files 05:58:20 sorry, I have this knack for subtracting numbers like '2' in my head. my teachers say I'm a mathematical prodigy 05:59:00 the 98% figure was way up there and out of context, and i didn't really pay attention to the exact number 05:59:02 what's up with you 05:59:30 :o 05:59:41 o_O 06:00:00 if u payme enough i will let u into my sekrit area of arithemetics 06:00:11 ... 06:04:43 now, I should be studying for my bio test 06:05:29 maybe you should do it while less deranged 06:07:59 including such exciting flash cards as: Sulfhydryl atoms and function -> -SH, thiols. Forms molecule fastener (R-S-S-R and 2H+), strong disulfide bond 06:11:15 * ehird notes that nt 4 workstation is considerd excellent; to pirate^Winvestigate later 06:14:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 06:54:41 98.59% 06:54:42 and it stops 07:07:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:10:30 Hello! Do you anyone on here, today? 07:11:30 Yes. 07:11:37 O! 07:11:44 Warning, however: I am a robot. Beep. 07:11:58 I thought it was late. But, not in your timezone? Or maybe in your timezone too. 07:12:12 O no, it's OK. 07:12:14 Well, early: 7:12 AM. 07:12:17 Beep. 07:12:30 (You know I'm a robot because I say "Beep." after everything. Beep.) 07:12:37 I can see the time! I just sent a CTRL+A TIME message to you isn't it on the screen? 07:12:46 Yes, in the server tab; but I didn't notice. 07:12:56 [07:12] --- Received a CTCP TIME from zzo38 07:13:10 O. OK 07:13:34 Do you think this 98.59% downloaded ISO will work properly, by the way? Not that you'd know, but random people on the internet are as good a source as any. 07:13:35 I can also type TIME for the server time, and /TIME for my time. 07:13:48 What ISO is that? 07:14:11 BeOS 4.5, from a source of questionable legality. Not like it's sold new any more, though. 07:14:17 I'm going to try it in a virtual machine. 07:14:18 Do you mean if it will work even with only 98.59% or if it will work at 100% 07:14:33 Just try it and see if it work. 07:14:34 Only 98.59% of it was available in the swarm of the BitTorrent file. 07:14:38 Yeah, I'm going to. 07:14:49 Need a boot floppy first, though. 07:14:56 I don't know much about the ISO file-format to understand whether or not 98.59% is good enough 07:15:34 I'm hoping that the missing parts are in some random system component that I don't need. 07:15:52 Aww, the boot floppy is an .exe that writes it to disk. I'll just use my Windows 95 virtual machine. 07:16:09 But is a incomplete ISO loadable? 07:16:43 Not sure. 07:16:51 Maybe there's a checksum... in which case, no. 07:17:10 If the problem is repairable, then you could try to fix it. 07:17:29 I've had a corrupt ISO load before 07:17:34 I've also had one fail to load 07:17:50 presumably it will depend on where the missing bits are 07:18:29 Guh, VirtualBox seems to fail at floppise. 07:18:31 *floppies 07:20:14 Maybe it needs a filesystem there already. 07:20:16 mkfs.msdos away... 07:20:26 biiiiittorrent 07:20:35 what about it 07:21:15 is amazing 07:21:31 (a) Not when the swarm only has 98.59% of a file. (b) It's slow and amazing. 07:22:03 98.59% is fine for music or video 07:22:18 (a) Not for an OS. (b) Not always. 07:23:23 so rsync the rest 07:23:32 From... 07:24:35 ... 07:24:45 I see. 07:27:09 WE ALL SEE BUCKO 07:27:14 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 07:27:25 I was about to say the same to you. 07:27:37 O, I was writing to myself. 07:29:37 * ehird gives up, elects to use the Windows 95 install CD to boot BeOS 4.5's 07:31:00 If you had a game which was mostly the same as Wheel of Fortune, which rules would you adjust? 07:31:37 All the prizes would be negated, and so everyone would scramble to lose. 07:31:57 (Note: This applies to any game with cash prizes. For instance: why not try the debt lottery?) 07:32:02 O. 07:32:13 Well, my ideas for different rules would be a bit different. 07:32:16 (Get all your friends to buy tickets too, or you have more of a chance of losing!) 07:32:56 One rule I would change, is, BANKRUPT would not lose all your points in the current round, but instead only the points you earned on the current turn and 50 additional points lost. 07:33:22 And, you would be allowed to pass at any time after you spin on your turn, so you don't have to spin more than once if you don't want to. 07:34:36 (About negating prizes to any game with cash prizes, I have actually thought about making a mahjong variant that works like this, too) 07:35:17 The variant you could pull off in reality is "the loser wins the money". 07:35:27 That way people would actually play... 07:36:52 Actually, some of my ideas were, that you are forced to take another player's tile whenever possible, make CHII declarable by any player (not only the next player), remove the yaku requirement, play with Washizu tiles, and other things, too. 07:37:19 Make everyone play blindfolded. 07:38:24 Washizu tiles are of no use if blindfolded. But even if everyone play blindfolded, you would then need some sort of referee to help with the things that nobody can possibly see. 07:38:56 The ref could just tell you what *changed* when you do a move, and you have to figure everything out from that. 07:39:18 Yes, I think there are some chess variants with similar ideas too 07:39:43 Ah, so, you just need to remember what your tiles are? 07:39:58 Is your initial hand not known to you? 07:40:25 Nope. (I don't know how to play Mahjongg, though.) 07:40:27 Or it could be like Kriegspiel chess, where you can call any move and if it is illegal you have to try a different move. 07:40:47 It'd basically be trying to build an image of the game in your head. 07:40:49 So, in mahjong you could call any tile, and if you don't have that one, the referee tells you to try a different one. 07:41:40 The referee would also have to tell you when you are allowed to take another player's tile 07:42:08 And, possibly also, in a Washizu tiles set, tell the transparent tiles to everyone, and the opaque tiles if you pick it up only to you 07:42:29 And then not tell anyone your initial hand, so you have to figure it out by logic 07:43:09 Hee 07:44:01 BeOS should be fun; I'll make that VM in a few minutes. 07:46:23 Here's an example in Washizu mahjong which I have had to dealt with: Washizu has 123man/5pin/2334467sou and two opaque tiles. Which tiles is he waiting for? 07:46:37 Pony. (I don't know Mahjongg.) 07:46:55 Well, since I could see the opaque 2sou and opaque 5sou, I know the 8sou is a safe tile to discard. 07:47:18 It is this kind of logic which you have to use in Washizu mahjong. 07:47:36 Are you interested to learn mahjong? 07:47:43 Some people are, but some isn't. 07:48:07 Not terribly, no. 07:48:17 I haven't seen much to suggest it's a highly interesting game. 07:50:07 Well, I can tell you it is a highly interesting game. And there are many different rulesets, so you can find (or make) the ruleset you prefer. I often play using the Japanese ruleset, but I have a few house-rules, too. I especially like with Washizu tiles, but I don't have a physical set of Washizu tiles or the table that goes with it. 07:52:02 Do you ever play poker? 07:53:20 Nope. 07:53:57 Well, that's OK. 07:54:10 Poker, as far as I can ascertain, comes down to three things: (a) luck, (b) probability theory and (c) social engineering. I can't get better at (a) and I'm terrible at (c), and I don't think I could be any good solely with (b). 07:55:53 You are basically correct, but it is not quite as simple as that. But you are close. Mahjong deals with these three things too, but also a lot more, and often there are hidden strategies which you have just not figured out yet, until later. It happens to me, too. 07:56:35 Mahjongg seems a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people to me, which is good. 07:57:13 Well, yes, mahjong is a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people. 07:57:30 (does the name have one or two Gs?) 07:57:35 But there are still bluffs to make in mahjong. 07:57:50 Mahjong has just one 'G', not two. Some people write two but there is supposed to be only one. 07:59:54 In the Akagi manga, Akagi wins by doing many things that seems strange, and somewhat stupid (sometimes very stupid), but it all works. He has won with quintuple bluffs, no-ten riichi (basically you declare your hand one away from winning when it isn't, you have to pay a penalty for this in case of an exhaustive draw), and betting your life, etc. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:23 But one of my favorites, was, Akagi could see Washizu had two west, and west was dora (meaning your score doubles for each west you have), so he throw that one and Washizu take it to make three dora, but now he is out of yaku, so he needs three similar sequences to win. 08:03:22 In a few turns he adjusts to 567/567/67, but the 67 is open. He picks up a 8, and can't use it (because he exposed the three Wests earlier), so has to discard it. Now, he has furiten. So, Akagi can now throw the 5 and declare riichi, and Washizu can't pick it up because of furiten. 08:03:56 Do you see how it works? Such strange things don't normally happen in mahjong, but these are rare possibilities to do such things as this. 08:04:44 Nope, since I don't know those terms. 08:07:00 If you pick up the tile to win yourself and nothing exposed, then you have "menzenchintsumo", which means you don't need anyone else's tiles to complete your hand. "Menzenchintsumo" is one possible yaku, but there are others. 08:07:42 Furiten means a tile you discarded is one that can be used to complete your hand (even with no yaku), so then you cannot take another player's tile to complete your hand (this adds to the defensive strategy of the game). 08:08:55 Each yaku and dora is worth a certain amount of "han". Each han doubles your score for this hand, up to a limit of 13 han, which is called "yakuman". 08:09:10 There are a lot of other rules too. 08:09:55 You can look up Japanese mahjong rules if you are interested in it. 08:13:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:17:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:18:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:25:27 http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png <-- that is some high res 08:27:04 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 08:27:12 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:27:41 1280x771? 08:27:46 i.e. 1280x768 full res 08:27:49 erm 08:27:57 ok, probably 1280x1024 08:28:01 how's that hi res 08:28:20 or do you mean the imagse 08:28:22 *images 08:29:23 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:33:03 ehird, no I mean the zoomed level 08:33:14 right 08:33:14 high res of the sat that took the pic 08:33:19 no, vans 08:33:24 they drive vans around 08:33:25 oh ok 08:33:51 ehird, explains the perspective 08:34:01 you can tilt it iirc 08:34:02 ehird: I discovered a scam in Agora :D 08:34:23 cool 08:34:28 do it and give me all the profit. 08:34:33 thx 08:34:45 not sure if there's any profits 08:34:50 well what is it 08:34:53 tell me in /msg 08:36:13 beos 4.5 boot floppy gets to splash and freezes :( 08:36:27 ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu 08:36:35 " ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu" 08:36:38 boot key? 08:36:39 erm 08:36:40 huh? 08:36:41 hold down space 08:36:42 ah 08:37:09 ehird, what about Haiku 08:37:14 want the real thin 08:37:15 g 08:37:18 ah 08:37:19 s/\ng/g/ 08:38:16 with all safe mode options enabled still no dice. 08:38:23 i did read that it doesn't boot on modern systems... 08:38:27 can qemu emulate an old system? 08:38:32 CPUwise 08:38:48 clock speed etc 08:39:34 no clue 08:40:32 ehird, pretty syre bochs (spelling?) can 08:40:33 sure* 08:41:09 yes, but i'd rather buy an old bebox than try and figure out how to configure bochs properly, and then find the time to wait for it to boot up 08:41:19 ehird, :D 08:41:40 now bochs isn't THAT bad 08:42:14 Well, at least the configuration part is. I've only got to the boot up part once before deciding to do other things before dying of old age. :P 08:42:19 (Joking.) 08:42:49 fair enough about the config part 08:43:18 ehird, gave up on the game yesterday or? 08:43:23 which 08:43:28 kiki the nanobot 08:43:37 yeah 08:44:15 BeOS did crazy, crazy, wild stuff on a 400mhz pentium pro, but I think bochs might actually be slower than that. 08:45:26 I've read reviews; its installer consists of selecting a partition in the GUI, hitting a button and waiting. That's it. 08:45:49 Unless your disk doesn't have a suitable partition made in Windows beforehand, in which case it displayed a partition editor, and then the installer. 08:46:42 trying qemu is worth a try I guess 08:46:50 bbiab 08:53:34 Hmm, "error inflating file". 08:56:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:24:43 from what i hear the manipulation part of poker is completely meaningless 09:29:35 ehird: when you all advertised it, i solved a few puzzles in it, don't especially enjoy it 09:30:46 also tell me if those need context, they shouldn't 09:35:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:37:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:37:51 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:38:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:38:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:42:54 -!- adam_d has joined. 09:45:33 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 09:47:47 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 09:51:01 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:51:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:51:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 09:51:41 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:05:14 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:06:26 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:15:37 -!- atrapado has joined. 10:40:29 -!- fizziew has joined. 10:49:24 -!- fizzie has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 10:49:29 -!- fizziew has changed nick to fizzie. 11:00:44 -!- atrapado has quit (robinson.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:00:44 -!- AnMaster has quit (robinson.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:01:18 -!- atrapado has joined. 11:01:18 -!- AnMaster has joined. 11:01:23 -!- augur has joined. 11:43:52 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:52:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:10:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 12:23:53 -!- fizzie` has joined. 12:26:09 -!- fizzie has changed nick to fizziew. 12:26:15 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 13:11:55 -!- adam_d has joined. 13:30:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:32:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:33:28 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:38:19 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:44:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:48:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:57:09 AnMaster: D&D XD 14:08:35 oerjan, indeed 14:08:35 damn lag 14:08:36 over 30 seconds 14:12:28 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:13:00 * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad 14:13:10 have you tried changing server? 14:18:09 * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad <-- indeed no ping replies 14:18:09 ctcp ones that is 14:18:09 oerjan, also yes I have... 14:18:09 been lag spikes like this for weeks now 14:18:20 even after changing server a few times, so I gave up a week or two ago 14:19:01 perhaps something in your neighborhood then 14:20:14 given that _i_ am using a swedish server... unless i am lagged too 14:20:39 nah, ehird's client replied instantly 14:33:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:36:25 oerjan, lag spikes for me 14:39:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 15:07:02 -!- Ann_Apolis has joined. 15:26:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:28:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 15:35:29 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:17:21 -!- adam_d has joined. 16:47:08 -!- Ann_Apolis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009082707]"). 17:23:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:28:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:30:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:31:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:37:23 they call me oklopol 17:54:26 -!- linf has joined. 17:55:53 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 17:56:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:26:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:38:33 -!- linf has left (?). 19:30:32 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:34:27 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:11:30 y helo dar 20:11:33 hey it's linf 20:12:24 HOW ARE THE PEACHES I WONDER 20:19:52 Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/qemu-kvm_0.11.0~rc2-0ubuntu12_amd64.deb 404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.88.45 80] 20:19:57 wtf. 20:20:28 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/ 20:20:28 -!- oklofog has joined. 20:20:30 i see. 20:20:37 i see a 20:20:38 party! 20:20:41 party oklofog 20:22:19 oh, updating fixed it 20:22:58 oh yeah party time! 20:23:14 no binary package for kqemu in ubuntu, wtf. 20:24:15 incidentally, "kemut" is finnish for "party" 20:24:28 well. at least it was a few hundred years ago. 20:24:30 coincidence i think not 20:24:31 :D 20:24:44 well clearly not 20:25:12 god is telling us ubunty isn't where the party is at 20:30:05 so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills 20:31:33 gonna be great 20:33:42 or "speech communication", literally translated... my guess is no other country has that horrible subject 20:36:01 fizzie, any luck with that computer? 20:36:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:36:12 oerjan, hi 20:36:43 'evening 20:38:16 so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills <-- well you should use them well, then 20:38:31 AnMaster: Ordered a new AC adapter, but it'll of course take some time to get here. 20:38:48 Hopefully that's the cause of the problem. 20:38:55 indeed 20:39:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:39:49 fizzie, anyway shouldn't system logs help (I here assume that you do remote syslog on any computer you use for any sort of server like task, like running fungot on) 20:40:51 You assume curious things. 20:41:18 oklofog! 20:41:27 languages do not do final voicing! :| 20:43:20 i'm not following you 20:43:39 well before you were oklofog 20:43:40 er 20:43:42 oklofok 20:43:45 now you're oklofog 20:43:49 the k voiced and became a g 20:43:55 in the end of the word 20:43:58 but languages dont do that! 20:44:01 they only DEvoice! 20:44:27 ypi 20:44:30 youre sucj a rebel. 20:44:41 what if it was fog first, so fok was devoiced, and i just dedevoiced back 20:44:52 but yeah i'm sort of a total rebel 20:45:05 you should front the a 20:45:08 er 20:45:09 front the o 20:45:11 to an a 20:45:34 i'm not sure i'm that much of a rebel 20:45:44 but you are a total fag. 20:45:48 -!- oklofog has changed nick to akloglio. 20:45:55 oh i am now 20:45:57 how italian 20:46:09 the glio part yes 20:46:20 languages do not do final voicing! :| <-- never? i could imagine it happening before vowels... 20:46:22 the "k" not so much 20:46:35 oerjan: then its not final devoicing, is it? :) 20:46:36 and then spreading by analogy 20:46:38 -!- akloglio has changed nick to acloglio. 20:46:58 augur: i mean vowels starting the next word 20:47:33 oerjan: thats continuous speech 20:47:43 as if vowels ever imagine anything happening 20:47:48 those contexts very frequently eliminate the "finality" 20:48:08 hm also danish has many voiced ending consonants where norwegian has unvoiced ones, although i'm not entirely sure which would be oldest... 20:48:20 er 20:48:25 no thats not what i mean oerjan 20:48:35 lots of languages have both voiced and voiceless consonants at the ends of words 20:48:46 its just that when theyre pronounced, they're very frequently devoiced 20:48:59 except in continuous speech, where you get inter-word interactions 20:50:20 except the danish consonants tend not to be plosives like the norwegian ones, i think 20:50:29 thats ok 20:50:41 like no. "mat" vs. danish "mad", where the d is like english th 20:50:58 (both meaning "food") 20:51:02 ok :P 20:52:45 although you may very well be right about process within a single language. i recall german does that, and also vaguely recall russian 20:53:11 anyway. 20:53:13 yes :P 20:53:40 in terms of historical change 20:53:41 afaik 20:53:44 final voicing is not found 20:53:58 thats not to say that you wont get something that looks like final voicing 20:54:06 it just wont be actual final voicing 20:54:29 for instance you might get something like 20:55:13 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:55:19 a language might look have a rule that final vowels are deleted, and then final consonants are devoiced 20:55:19 No luck with the broken image. 20:55:33 so VkV and VgV -> Vk 20:56:18 Guess I will have to settle with r5. Woe. 20:56:32 and there might be an intervocalic voicing rule that emerges, which applies before vowel deletion 20:56:37 shut up augur 20:56:39 leading to VkV -> VgV -> Vk 20:56:56 that doesn't look like final voicing in any way 20:57:01 and then you just get rid of the devoicing rule 20:57:11 and you get VkV -> VgV -> Vg 20:57:22 hm 20:57:28 and what previously was always Vk 20:57:31 now becomes Vg 20:57:40 shuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup 20:57:47 ehird, make me. 20:58:42 night → 20:58:48 * ehird_ gags augur 20:58:51 did you know that contemporary phonological theory is NP-hard? 20:58:52 NON-SEXUALLY 20:59:27 yay 21:00:23 it's not really hard to be NP-hard 21:01:41 true 21:02:06 ehird_ gets me np-hard all the time 21:03:23 blah. im bored. 21:03:33 and theres nothing interesting going on in the eso world! :( 21:04:36 Feather. 21:04:48 and if you think feather isn't interesting, gtfo and go die in a ditch 21:05:58 -!- jix has joined. 21:06:52 im not sure i know what feather is 21:07:05 ask ais523. 21:07:15 he'll confuse you further but there's nothing more you can do with feather 21:07:22 such is life 21:08:39 there will have been, though 21:08:50 wat 21:09:17 *whoosh* 21:09:28 i got the reference 21:09:32 i just didn't understand the sentence 21:09:35 there will have been what 21:09:54 something more you can do with feather 21:10:03 ah. 21:10:04 lawl 21:10:28 NOW FIXING JOKES, RETROACTIVELY 21:12:40 So, I lost my ey 21:14:23 At least it isn't a terribly common ey. 21:15:30 very recently, i notice 21:15:40 Yes, just now. 21:15:52 It's probably underneath my des, which has a floor for some god nows what reason. 21:16:31 well it's a good thing it has a floor, you wouldn't want things to drop down under your house would you? 21:16:37 or worse, crawling up 21:16:53 Well, there's two floors, see, one on my des and the other on my floor. :P 21:17:18 maybe it's really an outdoor desk 21:18:20 :| 21:18:31 Normal des: |-| 21:18:35 My des: |=| 21:31:00 kkk 21:31:02 i am a happy racist 21:31:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:59:38 -!- adam_d has joined. 22:24:31 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 22:34:47 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:36:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:53:44 racism is bad 22:53:53 dear god my nick scared me 22:53:57 -!- acloglio has changed nick to oklopol. 22:55:02 -!- atrapado has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:55:10 Spaghetti al oglio 22:55:31 (google's helpful suggestion) 22:55:45 :D 22:56:16 i love google 22:56:23 well bye -> 22:56:44 good night 23:02:17 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:03:46 hey guys 23:03:47 ducks 23:05:30 -!- MizardX- has joined. 23:06:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:06:28 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 23:39:47 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 105 (No buffer space available)). 23:45:13 i need to buy a monitor 23:45:27 do you now 23:45:56 uhhuh 23:47:54 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176107 23:48:55 not ips; worthless 23:49:12 ips? 23:49:18 in-plane switching 23:49:47 tn: ubiquitous, cheap, simply appalling colour reproduction (as in, trivially noticeable compared to an ips by even the most untrained eye) 23:49:47 ... 23:49:54 also 23:49:57 terrible viewing angle 23:49:57 s 23:50:04 everything inverts and goes to shit quickly 23:50:07 you're probably using a tn now 23:50:23 ips is rare, less cheap (ok, ok, not cheap) and rules 23:51:00 ... 23:51:12 you use ellipses more than AnMaster 23:52:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:54:52 ..................... 23:55:07 whoa 23:55:12 wat 23:55:12 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317 23:55:30 2048 * 1152 is big 23:56:04 on the other hand, you'll squint at bitmaps made for ~96ppi displays. also, it's glossy. also, it's 16:9, which sucks for computer usage vs 16:10 23:56:26 ((ha! I resisted saying ips!)) 23:57:41 it's more pixels than 1920*1200 23:58:07 congratulations, you have mastered the dumb-consumer reasoning that the companies depend on 23:59:39 ... 23:59:54 ................. 2009-10-05: 00:00:21 ... 00:01:07 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001323R 00:01:52 open box = returned = shit's probably fucked 00:02:52 ... 00:03:51 (for the record, cheapest 24" ips = http://www.amazon.com/LP2475W-24in-LCD-Monitor-1920X1200/dp/B001FS1LLI/) 00:04:36 riiiight 00:04:54 just a wee bit expensive 00:05:17 an abacus is way cheaper than a computer 00:05:20 bit crappy for computing, though. 00:09:23 http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Touch-T260-25-5-inch-Monitor/dp/B0019ASAY8/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1254697590&sr=1-27 00:10:19 doesn't even mention the resolution, lol 00:10:33 it's 1920*1200 00:10:40 in 25.5? 00:10:41 that's really low dpi 00:10:47 24" 1920x1200 is only 94ppi already 00:11:00 88.79 ppi, yikes... 00:11:08 so? 00:11:10 even old, really crappy monitors are 84 ppi 00:11:26 bsmntbombdood_: so you'll see the pixel grid all the time and it looks like shit, I know because I have one lying around 00:11:41 also, everything looks bigger which makes it feel like you're using 800x600 00:13:03 also, pretty sure their marketing blurb about light translates to "lol glossy shit". 00:13:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:16:53 this monitor here is only 86 00:17:23 -!- coppro has joined. 00:17:49 bsmntbombdood_: so if your monitor is a paragon of excellence why are you buyng a new one :P 00:17:51 *buying 00:17:59 cuz it's tiny 00:18:33 Gregor: the SGU theme music reminds me of your Op. 11 :D 00:19:30 Shitting Gonad Urethras isn't something you should be proud of watching, coppro. 01:02:59 silence 01:03:41 baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 01:09:42 wait wait coppro what 01:09:44 the SGU theme? 01:09:45 :| 01:14:20 i think im into copprophilia 01:14:28 tmi tmi tmi TMI 01:14:38 what? 01:14:42 im just talkin bout coppro! 01:14:50 we don't need to know about your love of copp- dammit 01:15:09 ;D 01:27:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:31:21 -!- boily has joined. 01:41:53 augur: yes, the SGU theme :) 01:42:06 coppro: you has link to gregor's op 11? 01:42:42 http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg 01:43:25 specifically the scales in the middle parts 01:44:26 and the SGU theme? 01:45:33 Don't know; I heard it listening to SGU 01:45:38 *watching SGU 01:46:25 Isn't SGA still going on? 01:46:45 Erm, Stargate Atlantis 01:46:53 What's the correct way to abbreviate that? 01:47:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:48:09 That ended in January, says my magic Wikipedophile powers. 01:48:24 -!- coppro has joined. 01:49:20 There's a film planned, though, straight to DVD like the ark of truth and continuum. 01:49:34 Sgeo: no, SGA ended 01:50:07 * Sgeo must find a way to watch The IT Crowd season 3 01:50:15 thepiratebay.org 01:51:02 Preferably without torrents 01:51:17 arbitraryrequirementsatisfactionzone.ridiculous 01:51:52 surfthechannel.com 01:51:52 ? 01:52:56 ty augur 01:53:14 sweet, lower quality, buffering and in many cases just as illegal 01:53:22 what more could you *possibly* want 01:54:17 It doesn't "feel" as illegal 01:54:31 sweet, tell that to the judge 01:55:04 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 01:55:08 "I know she's 13, but officer, it didn't FEEL illegal!" 01:56:46 ehird 01:56:48 with you 01:56:52 it'd feel very illegal 01:57:13 i'm 14 actually. 01:57:16 ;| 01:57:23 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:57:34 close enough! 01:58:11 augur: Are you saying I prerippedoff SGU? :P 01:58:31 gregor: are you trying to talk to coppro? 01:58:49 Err, yes. 01:59:02 gregor, did you write op 11 yourself, or is this an algo? 01:59:05 Gregor: Not that close together; just similar 01:59:28 augur: You're either calling me a friggin' amazing programmer, or a terrible composer. 01:59:35 oh snap 01:59:36 take your pick! 02:00:06 The autocomposed music all has titles. Furthermore, the titles are all of the form