00:04:52 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm <-- look at the google ads O_o 00:05:28 what about it? 00:06:06 "Biological Data Analysis" ... "Microbial Insights" ... "$89 Home DNA Test" 00:06:11 is that what you saw too? (doubt it) 00:06:57 no, but I saw similar ones 00:07:13 the best one I got was "miRNA array analysis" 00:07:21 seems a bit esoteric to be on google ads 00:07:33 *microarray 00:08:34 esoteric? Google? nah ;-) 00:11:25 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 00:14:49 * coppro doesn't want to do homework :( 00:21:06 for what? 00:22:37 Biology 00:22:45 and English 00:22:56 which together account for 100% of my school subjects :/ 00:22:57 break it up into bite-sized pieces, perhaps? 00:23:04 it's not hard 00:23:05 just tedious 00:23:19 well that's a given ;-) 00:23:22 and creative, too 00:23:26 I don't like creative 00:24:27 but esoteric languages are creative 00:24:55 but in a different way 00:25:04 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:25:05 I'm kind of glad I'm taking only math classes. 00:25:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:25:14 This is the school version of creative - e.g. "stuff that isn't what you normally do" 00:25:25 Warrigal: I can't wait until Uni :) 00:25:35 I wanted to take five-ish math classes next semester, but the head of the math department came and told me I shouldn't do that. 00:25:43 biology isn't creative unless you engineer new lifeforms 00:26:02 Warrigal, you'd probably burn out with 5+ 00:26:33 i'm _still_ waiting for oklopol's great burnout this year 00:26:59 I burned out this semester with a single non-math class. :-P 00:28:09 Well, actually a double non-math class. 00:28:39 I spend half my day working at a biotech firm, it's awesome :) 00:30:25 okay, done the noncreative part of part 1 00:30:34 coppro: so what are you currenly doing for education? 00:30:42 High school 00:30:47 last year 00:31:01 Are you United States? 00:31:05 No 00:31:07 Canada 00:31:22 he said "uni", kinda a giveaway ;-) 00:31:39 Hmm. How does the education system go there? 00:31:45 12 years 00:31:55 huh, thought it was 13 00:31:56 well, and kindergarten, but that doesn't count 00:32:25 No province has had 13 for several years 00:32:34 good ;-) 00:32:48 Well, except Quebec has the weird CEGEP thing 00:33:02 * Rugxulo shakes fist 00:33:08 Quebec has 11 years + 2 years CEGEP 00:33:26 What part of that is high school? 00:33:35 2 years I think 00:33:39 It's 3 here 00:34:07 oh no, Quebec just has secondary schools, which are 5 years 00:34:21 no distinction between junior high/middle school and high school 00:34:51 I was kind of an expecting an answer along the lines of "one year of kindergarten, eight years of primary school, four years of secondary school (high school), then college/university". 00:35:00 ok, fine 00:35:18 one year kindergarten, 6 years elementary, 3 years junior high, 3 years high school in Alberta 00:35:23 two years preschool optional 00:35:29 (before kindergarten) 00:37:03 So pretty much like in the US but with one year of high school removed and added to elementary. 00:37:18 Think so, not 100% sure 00:37:27 even in the U.S. in some places, 9th is in middle 00:37:29 (given that I don't know your system) 00:37:51 All I know is that I hope I get accepted to UW 00:37:59 (Waterloo) 00:38:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:39:15 Hmm, I guess the two systems are actually consistent, then. 00:39:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:40:26 UW? Is that in ontario? 00:41:05 Yeah 00:41:17 Best math school in the country, and high up there worldwide 00:42:59 Only problem is, my transcript doesn't look as good as it should because of stupid options I was forced to take :( 00:43:24 transcripts are dishonest anyways (well, mine is) 00:44:03 I seem to often get the feeling that the school I'm at... kinda sucks. 00:44:15 What school? 00:44:21 Grand Valley State University. 00:44:27 Never heard of it :/ 00:44:39 but then again, I haven't heard of most US schools except the big ones 00:44:56 It is kind of big. 00:45:01 I've never heard of it either, doesn't mean it's bad 00:45:17 The enrollment is 23,000. 00:45:20 although that feeling that one's school sucks is fairly common ;-) 00:45:30 Indeed. 00:46:36 What I used to think is that the Internet could teach me in minutes what school teaches in weeks. 00:47:43 * coppro knows this isn't tru 00:47:45 *true 00:47:55 Now it seems that while that's more or less true for certain types of declarative knowledge, for procedural knowledge, it's a different story. 00:48:08 Yeah 00:48:35 and yet school isn't exactly a "bargain", either 00:48:46 nope :( 00:48:54 Still, though, I feel like my greatest advances in procedural knowledge have come about online. 00:49:37 The problem is that the internet, while it has most of the knowledge you may deign to acquire, it generally sucks at explaining it 00:49:42 I've had two "what the hell am I doing" moments online, and none in school. 00:49:52 and you're left to figure out which order to learn things on your own 00:50:07 -!- dbc has joined. 00:50:13 As in "hmm, well, I suppose that if you kind of visualize it like this, you can kind of see that--what the hell am I doing? There's a formula for this"! 00:50:23 :D 00:51:05 dunno.. i think there isn't too much good music theory on the net 00:51:13 One was when I was trying to figure out a parameter that would make two functions tangent. I took the arctangent of the derivative. 00:51:17 madbrain: I said "most", not all 00:51:19 The #1 issue with school that helps give that feeling is a lot of knowledge that should be procedural (e.g. math) is treated like it isn't. 00:51:30 especially at low levels 00:51:36 The other was when solving the Diophantine equation x^2 - y^2 = 1817; I didn't realize that the left side could be factored. 00:51:43 school = rote memorization and busywork, that's all 00:52:11 Rugxulo: see, that's the problem. When it /isn't/ that, it's exciting to learn 00:52:21 music theory = only good in as much as you are willing to discard it 00:52:43 rux: ah, but many jobs are rote memorization and busy work 00:52:55 e.g. have you ever seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula? 00:53:10 I've seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula. 00:53:25 I was perplexed by the fact that the other students called the derivation "freaky". 00:53:31 like, I love being creative and all, but now I have to get someone to pay for it and it sounds hard 00:53:40 Warrigal: lol 00:53:46 At least they got shown how it works 00:53:49 rux: dunno what to think about music theory... 00:53:54 It's freaky that when you do this, you get the same answer as when people did it hundreds of years ago? What the *hell* did you expect? 00:54:01 It's easier to remember things you understand 00:54:06 Charlie Parker: "Learn as much as you can, then forget all that s**t" 00:54:15 this is THE problem with math education in North America 00:54:44 yes, but they don't have time to let you understand, only time to make you memorize stuff and do lots of busywork 00:54:51 Wrong 00:54:57 gotta cram in so much curriculum 00:55:06 They could teach things far quicker if they showed you how to understand 00:55:07 must give so many tests, etc. 00:55:14 They have plenty of time. 00:55:18 well, then they suck too bad ;-) 00:55:21 A full 12 years. 00:55:26 they waste it 00:55:31 yes 00:55:39 It's a systemic problem 00:55:40 you think Windows 7 really needs 16 GB of HD space?? nope, but they waste it 00:55:42 well, its not the smart mathematicians who teach¸ 00:55:43 same thing ;-)) 00:55:53 I don't see why it's unreasonable to get a basic understanding of mathematics in that time. 00:56:05 Another great example is fractions 00:56:06 the ones who teach are the ones who know how to deal with kids 00:56:27 Of course, people appear to think that mathematics is merely calculation. So... 00:56:32 madbrain: ... Ah, no. 00:56:45 no, the ones who teach are whoever they can get 00:56:56 rux: ah, yeah 00:56:57 right 00:56:58 and you don't need lots of experience either 00:57:06 pikhq: A symptom of the flawed education 00:57:08 The ones who teach are the ones who know how not to send people to the guillotine. 00:57:14 coppro: Absolutely. 00:57:14 my 4th grade teacher's parents were younger than mine (at the time!) 00:57:52 hilariously ironic 00:57:57 to me at least 00:58:14 (disclosure: my own mother is a math teacher) 00:58:25 (not that I ever learned jack from her) 00:58:38 * Rugxulo is not a math whiz 00:59:10 Rugxulo: Yet, you program. 00:59:17 dunno, I learned some math (mostly having to do with programming!)... I never figured out how to do integrals though 00:59:21 BTW, I think the guillotine was outlawed in 1982 or so in France, so... ;-) 00:59:26 Which... *is mathematics*. 00:59:29 I wonder why I remembered the number 1817... 00:59:42 18, 17, 16, 15 ... 01:00:20 still better than the gas chamber 01:00:42 If I had to choose a method of execution for myself, I'm sure I would choose nitrogen asphyxiation. 01:00:46 1812 was the year of the War of 1812! 01:00:57 I can't imagine how any method of execution could be more humane. 01:01:09 natural causes? ;-) 01:01:47 dying in your sleep? 01:01:57 I guess execution by natural causes is a pretty humane way to do it. :-) 01:02:24 The thing about nitrogen asphyxiation is it works like this: 01:02:30 You put on a mask. You get dizzy. You die. 01:02:42 * pikhq votes execution by bomb -- sitting right next to the one who gave out the death sentence. 01:03:29 Execution by suicide-brought-on-by-remorse-brought-on-by-murder. 01:04:57 death by chocolate ;-) 01:07:21 (what, never heard of that dish?) 01:07:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_Chocolate 01:11:57 -!- ehird has joined. 01:12:04 "Finally, every time Psystar turns on any of the Psystar computers running Mac OS X, which it does before shipping each computer, Psystar necessarily makes a separate modified copy of Mac OS X in Random Access Memory, or RAM. This is the third unlawful copy." —Apple 01:12:08 Apparently I'm a pirate. 01:13:07 uh ... yeah sure 01:13:17 sorry, but counting like that is a little bit of a stretch 01:13:36 Clearly I was quoting it and calling myself a pirate because I thought it was sane and reasonable. 01:13:40 * Rugxulo hears that latest Ubuntu runs on Intel Macs 01:13:46 I wasn't mocking it or anything, nosiree, thanks for the apology. 01:13:53 linux has run on intel macs since about 3 seconds after they came out 01:13:55 I'm just agreeing, it's a bit isnane 01:13:59 *more like a few monthhts 01:13:59 really? 01:14:01 *months 01:14:02 yes. 01:14:04 so has windows 01:14:11 Windows doesn't count 01:14:11 well, ok, windows took a bit longer i think 01:14:12 but whatever 01:14:18 Rugxulo: without boot camp. 01:14:24 boot camp just partitions and gives you a driver CD 01:14:42 there was an EFI upgrade (like BIOS) that let you boot BIOS things from it, you see 01:14:44 when boot camp came out 01:14:46 but before that 01:14:50 people just hacked up their own shit 01:14:52 ah 01:14:53 so you could run windows on it 01:15:00 linux happened earlier because there is a linux bootloader for efi 01:15:01 elilo 01:15:06 nobody uses it now though 01:15:39 latest Ubuntu has issues with Intel gfx, I hear 01:16:08 (on a different note) 01:16:22 they're changing everything around. after this intel graphics should be good 01:16:23 (in X11) 01:16:27 well, Xorg 01:16:37 ubuntu by itself does very little apart from ship unstable things that barely work 01:16:50 based upon Debian "testing", from what I've read 01:17:08 yes, sid. 01:17:13 anyway, you've been able to install rEFIt (EFI bootloader selector thingy, just point-and-click in OS X to install), pop in an ubuntu CD in an intel mac and install it for years now 01:17:28 I never hear anybody doing that, though 01:17:43 Tons of people do it. I've done it several times and used Ubuntu for a few weeks recently. 01:17:58 Case in point: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328 01:18:05 A whole forum of Mac Ubuntu users. 01:18:10 Active. 01:18:30 PPC too?? 01:19:31 "Please join the irc release party in ...", heh 01:19:45 PPC is a "community-supported port" 01:19:49 Translation: "barely works" 01:21:05 I won't be using this machine "sometime soon" anyway; hopefully I'll forget all the crap I needed to get it working. 01:21:06 translation: "soon to be obsoleted, even by us!" 01:21:26 It's been community-supported (== we won't support it) since 2006, iirc. 01:21:40 The population of Mac users that use Ubuntu is small enough; PPC Ubuntu? 01:21:49 I hate that about Macs, they brag how great they are then drop them like stones once they are *barely* obsolete 01:22:05 PPC was obsolete before 2005 01:22:10 i hate everything 01:22:24 G5 was fast, sure... but they still sucked. Especially the heat output. 01:22:32 P4 anyone? ;-) 01:22:36 I imagine Apple were trying to jump the PPC ship since before 2004. 01:22:43 Rugxulo: in fact, the first Intel machines sent to developers— 01:22:47 were pentium 4 Mac Pros 01:22:56 but Apple never sold anything before Core 1, right? 01:23:03 nopee 01:23:05 *nope 01:23:09 (even though they'd been testing since 2000) 01:23:19 i'm going to go ahead and guess that negotiating with intel is hard 01:23:39 Intel made a specific variant of the cpu just for Apple 01:23:50 then again, Apple is 100% Intel-only, so I'm not too surprised 01:23:55 Did they? 01:23:59 oh 01:24:00 for hte macbook air 01:24:01 *the 01:24:06 It uses a stock CPU nowadays 01:24:19 anyway, dropping ppc support from snow leopard saved ~10 GiB and means they can do a bunch of intel optimisations, which is cool. ppc users aree used to everyything being slow and crufty anyway :D 01:24:24 *are *everything *fucking keyboard 01:24:45 just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh 01:25:53 I'm pretty sure you must be in favour of abolishing capitalism in favour of massexcessism, where the more time you waste and neglect things most people actually use, the more money you get. 01:26:14 And PPCs don't run perfectly, btw. 01:26:26 nothing does, but it doesn't mean it's useless 01:27:21 I'd try to explain proper allocation of resources and practicality and all those sane things but I think I've tried that too many times already. 01:29:16 Rugxulo: presumably you'll complain that my static-only linux distro sucks because i'll compile it for i686 only, when all the software could work on i386... 01:30:07 Linux these days won't run well (if at all) on less than a 686 anyways 01:30:49 and honestly, most people don't have older than a 686 anyways 01:30:55 (Fedora is 586+ since 11) 01:31:01 Ha, and most people don't have older than an Intel Mac... 01:31:10 my Dad does 01:31:14 Anyone who buys a Mac expecting a loooooong product life on the latest stuff is deluding themselves anyway. 01:31:19 Rugxulo: yeah, and my $person owns a <686 too 01:31:29 you do realise that people use linux on embedded devices, btw? 01:31:32 I still have an original P1 01:31:35 those are ... rather less powerful than a 686. 01:31:50 I'm not saying they don't exist, but especially since nobody seems to care, then it's heavily moot 01:32:14 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:32:20 [01:24] Rugxulo: just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh 01:32:25 correct 01:32:30 pretty sure pentium 1s ran pretty "perfectly" if you stayed minimal 01:32:35 you're being pretty contradictory here 01:32:37 in Linux?? 01:32:42 not from my experience 01:32:48 that's linux's fault 01:32:51 I can do more in DOS than Linux 01:32:53 the CPU ran perfectly, which is the issue at hand 01:32:55 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 01:32:56 therefore, linux should support it 01:33:03 by your argument 01:33:04 Linux == elitism 01:33:11 ... 01:33:18 that's the single-handed dumbest thing you've ever said 01:33:26 *typed 01:34:10 you only get laughed away trying to do things like that 01:34:32 they won't help 01:35:23 one, probably because you were saying dumb shit and not listening to them; two, i've never had that experience, ever; three, you do realise as a rebuttal to my statement that according to you, the pentium 1 should be supported by linux, this is a complete non-sequitur? 01:35:50 Pentium 1 is (barely) supported 01:35:54 and finally, four, if ubuntu (that my mother uses!) is elitist, you're crazy 01:36:03 most 586s don't support over a certain amount of RAM (e.g. 64 MB) 01:36:44 and in reality, much less is installed, and Linux doesn't work very well with low amounts 01:36:54 (unless you like mad swapping) 01:37:21 i don't think you've ever tried to use linux on a low-end machine. it can handle low RAM just fine. 01:37:31 unless you were trying to install ubuntu with gnome or something. 01:38:04 it can't handle it well, that's for sure 01:38:16 at least not without recompiling everything from scratch, rolling your own, etc. 01:38:40 I'm not talking about the very minimal "runs but does nothing" install either 01:39:58 seriously, debian runs on everything. 01:40:05 debian+busybox runs on everything and a machine. 01:40:48 no, Contiki runs on everything :-) 01:41:13 apart from x86-64 01:41:38 x86-64 is a mode, not a chip 01:41:49 incorrect 01:41:53 amd64 is an architecture in itself 01:41:55 so it still runs in legacy 32-bit mode 01:42:01 it is not the same 01:42:07 rtfs (spec) 01:42:17 are there any AMD64 chips that won't run 32-bit or 16-bit? no, so it's moot 01:42:30 you're not listening to what i'm saying. 01:42:39 because I can't hear you, this is text :-P 01:42:54 ooh, please point out we're typing into keyboards again, it's hilarious 01:43:35 thiis froom thee guuy whoo caan't stoop tallking aboout hiis keeyboard 01:43:47 because it sucks and i need to buy a better one 01:43:53 okay, no seriously, I know Debian can run on low end, but it won't be fun, that's for sure 01:44:04 the days are long gone where you can comfortably run Linux in less than 128 MB of RAM 01:44:07 gimme that p1 and i'll get linux on it 01:44:22 to do what exactly? 32 MB just isn't enough to do anything 01:44:32 even DSL (or TinyCore) needs 32 MB minimum 01:44:39 you are wroooooong 01:44:43 so that rules out ever compiling anything 01:44:51 um, since when 01:44:59 unless you go to console only, and even then modern GCC is a hog 01:45:00 just because you can't run gcc 4... 01:45:08 seriously, you have no idea about this 01:45:18 even GCC 3.4.6 would probably be slow (as 3.4.4 with DJGPP isn't really fast) 01:45:42 the kernel for instance compiles with gcc 2. 01:46:07 it used to *only* compile with GCC 2, but that changed when people finally got tired of that annoyance (although GCC 2 is lightning fast in comparison) 01:46:23 Heck, I'm going to go out and get a Linux system that should run in 32MB of RAM. 01:46:47 BasicLinux can run in very low amounts, but it's useless 01:47:09 pikhq: as in a computer? 01:47:24 http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/082/8234/8234f3.png 01:47:25 ehird: I don't have said computer any more, sadly. 01:47:26 basiclinux is useless? 01:47:37 pikhq: ah, you mean a distro or whatever 01:47:40 Yeah. 01:47:45 Trivial to do, really. 01:48:01 it seems Rugxulo's definition of useless is runs smoothly on a p1 01:48:07 which is an amusingly circular definition. 01:49:03 "runs" what, exactly? 'cause kernel + Busybox isn't much functionality, IMHO 01:49:53 not like basiclinux runs X11 or anything 01:49:54 noooooooooope 01:49:59 That + troff is a nice typesetting system. 01:50:10 troff is not a nice typesetting system pikhq. 01:50:11 Well, nice except that it's outclassed by TeX. :P 01:50:25 ehird: I'm mostly referring to the original "official" use of UNIX, there. 01:50:33 it's still unreadable 01:50:55 troff would be 10x better it you could do \{foo} to mean \n.foo\n 01:51:13 Considering it's competition was not very far removed from the original printing presses, though... 01:52:35 * ehird rewrites a manpage with \{...} out of curiosity 01:52:54 \textsc{unix} 01:54:01 Eh, too lazy! 02:03:21 BTW, dumb question, but why a.out? 02:03:29 Because ELF is overkill. 02:03:38 I think he means why the filename 02:03:43 Oh, that. 02:03:44 no, I meant for your distro 02:03:47 Oh, okay. 02:04:00 Because ELF was invented to make dynamic linking suck less (and, well, for some debugging stuff). 02:04:06 Although really COFF did that too, ELF was just going furtherr. 02:04:07 *further 02:04:13 As a.out is simpler and I don't do dynamic linking... 02:04:18 DJGPP still uses COFF (as does NT, more or less) 02:04:39 NT uses something closely related to COFF. 02:04:44 Still, COFF is even more obscure than a.out for Linux, and has the same disadvantages as ELF. 02:04:51 their own weird variant, oddly different 02:05:00 Windows uses PE, which is a derivative of COFF. 02:05:13 What did they use in 9x, I wonder? 02:05:22 "Microsoft migrated to the PE format with the introduction of the Windows NT 3.1 operating system. All later versions of Windows, including Windows 95/98/ME, support the file structure." 02:05:25 in 3 then 02:05:28 still PE in Win9x 02:05:42 I suppose they mean Win32s 02:05:46 The NE, abbreviation for New Executable, is a 16-bit[1] executable file format that was introduced in Windows 3.x [2], and was also used at a later[dubious – discuss] time in OS/2 and 16-bit Windows. While it was "new" at the time of invention, it is now rare and obsolete, though its usage can still be found by a few select programs.[3] It is backwards compatible with the older DOS MZ format.[1] 02:05:53 I don't remember ever seeing PE in Win3x, only NE 02:06:07 Someone add NE support to Linux! 02:06:12 PE has an NE/MZ header. 02:06:22 Em nemz nemz nemz nemz 02:06:27 ehird: With the new ability to have arbitrary executable formats, not hard at all. 02:06:28 Executable nomming. 02:06:35 unz unz unz unz unz unz 02:06:40 Just make a userspace NE loader, and register it with the kernel. 02:07:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocatable_Object_Module_Format 02:07:01 .obj files! 02:07:09 The same trick can be done to add PE support to Linux. (with Win32 support happening all magic-like) 02:07:30 -!- Rugxulo` has joined. 02:07:40 Linux+PE+Wine = Oh god kill me now 02:08:11 ehird: It consists just of making the kernel call out to Wine when it sees a PE header. 02:08:30 Just a matter of making an appropriately formatted file in /proc, IIRC. 02:08:35 bah, too many file formats 02:08:38 x( 02:08:54 Not exactly a *great* idea, but nowhere near as crazy as you'd think. 02:09:11 WINE is way more overkill than DOSEMU 02:09:28 WINE does a lot more than DOSEMU. 02:09:32 yes 02:09:42 It implements a complex ABI, rather than just being a vm86 handler. 02:09:58 (and/or a simple 8086 emulator) 02:10:00 DOSEMU on x86-64 emulates all 16-bit instructions 02:10:05 Someone gimme some cash to buy a Topre board :( 02:10:29 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:10:38 -!- Rugxulo` has changed nick to Rugxulo. 02:11:15 Money! To me! In return gratitude. It's an unbeatable deal. 02:11:34 * Rugxulo is reminded of Bedazzled 02:11:51 Feed my infinite need to buy a $250 keyboard ;_; 02:12:12 can it run Linux? ^_^ 02:12:25 Nope, but it does have a bunch of switches on the back to remap stuff. 02:12:29 DIP switches! 02:12:40 well, the controller might be able to run uclinux 02:12:41 who knows 02:13:15 It doesn't look very fancy at all, really... http://static.benippon.net/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/E/L/ELEC-PD-KB400WN.jpg 02:13:22 I'm pretty sure Linux's support for arbitrary executable formats could be used to implement some compatibility layers (akin to, say, FreeBSD's Linux support) 02:13:35 is freebsd's linux support still good these days? 02:13:51 should be, last I heard 8.0 would have 2.6 support 02:14:11 someone run gnome on top of it :-D 02:14:12 ehird: They're upgrading it from 2.4.2 to 2.6 support, syscall-wise. 02:14:16 And X11! 02:14:24 But yeah, it seems to be rather good. 02:15:14 maybe i should just get a filco with cherry switches to tide me over, they're more like $100 :-P 02:15:27 or an uber-cheap TVS Gold or Scorpius M10 for like $50 02:15:36 those only haves blues though. 02:17:04 should probably switch to colemamk sometime. 02:17:24 *colemak 02:19:44 please don't 02:20:26 lament: why not 02:20:42 because colemak is a halfway measure between qwerty and dvorak 02:21:00 yeah, i thought that too and deewiant said "no it isn't bitch" and i researched it 02:21:02 rather hard to come up with a legitimate use case for that 02:21:08 colemak actually has better statistical properties than dvorak. 02:21:20 the numbers don't lie 02:21:26 the numbers of what? 02:21:30 what 02:21:39 What should I name my HackBot-alike wiki? 02:21:42 what statistical properties? 02:21:44 for instance finger travel, how much you stray from the home row 02:21:48 hand distribution 02:21:48 etc 02:21:55 colemak is simply better than dvorak 02:22:00 Gregor: Eh? 02:22:04 ehird: lies. 02:22:12 lament: whatever you say. 02:22:21 unsubstantiated nonsense 02:22:25 HockBat, HackBotter, HackBot++ 02:22:28 that's nice, troll 02:22:38 ehird: I'm thinking of making a wiki where every node is like a command in HackEgo. 02:22:53 Gregor: that's not really a "wiki" is it 02:23:11 How is it not? Anybody can edit any page, the pages just happen to be scripts. 02:23:27 So, everything that lets people change it on the internet is now a wiki? 02:23:37 Collaborative paint? more like WIKI PAINT 02:23:57 Except this would actually be extremely similar to a wiki, in that there are pages which are editable. 02:24:03 but the biggest problem with colemak is that it's used exclusively by douchebag 02:24:14 s 02:24:16 lament: Deewiant loves you too 02:24:18 i've only met one person who used colemak, and he was a douchebag 02:24:25 n=1 02:24:27 great sample size 02:24:37 well it's not a very popular layout 02:24:42 lament: do you use dvorak? 02:24:44 yes 02:24:51 funny, you're a douchebag too 02:25:05 i will now proceed to discard all the rest of my sample of dvorak users to be on a level playing field 02:25:10 http://www.kimgrahamstudios.com/images/troll-15.jpg 02:25:12 :( 02:25:21 it's fun having an op that's a troll! 02:25:23 lament: aw sorry :( 02:25:25 i'm not a douchebag. I'm not even a bag! 02:25:36 you're not even a tree i don't know what Rugxulo is talkingn about 02:25:36 not a meatbag? ;-) 02:25:40 *talking 02:26:35 that lady is weird 02:26:38 heh 02:27:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:28:54 anyway 02:28:54 25-Dec-2006: David Piepgrass: Why QWERTY, And What's Better? (PDF). 02:28:54 “All things considered, I believe Colemak is better than Dvorak and the best alternative to QWERTY.” 02:28:54 David Piepgrass is the designer of the Asset keyboard layout. 02:28:55 According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models. 02:28:55 According to Andrei Stanescu: "Colemak is quite close to Dvorak. It scores a little bit better in some areas and a bit worse in other areas, and its overall score is usually 2-5% better than that of Dvorak, but it is worse for some texts. So it's slightly better than Dvorak, especially if you take into consideration its other advantages (better position for Backspace and similarity to Qwerty)." 02:29:00 —http://colemak.com/Media 02:29:02 yes, their media page is biased but that doesn't change the facts. also, http://colemak.com/Ergonomic 02:29:04 also see http://colemak.com/Compare to get some statistics for various texts 02:29:06 i could go on but i'm lazy 02:30:36 anyway I type fast enough on QWERTY, so it's mainly hand strain and comfort that makes me want to switch. 02:30:47 (i think slower than i can type, so) 02:31:24 BTW, ehird, what main apps will your distro intend to run? 02:32:29 window manager http://dwm.suckless.org/, terminal emulator (either urxvt or st (http://st.suckless.org/) or something), command-line toolset, vim, irc client ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii), browser prolly surf http://surf.suckless.org/... i swear it isn't all suckless software, just the most-used stuff :-P 02:32:40 (ignoring infrastructure) 02:32:59 (in which case my init, my package manager, xorg, not sure what shell yet (maybe pdksh)) 02:33:00 TinyC? 02:33:14 Rugxulo: alas tcc can't really compile much worthwhile. besides, it's ELF only 02:33:26 gcc for kernel+libc+stuff, 02:33:27 but it can run .c as if scripts 02:33:34 clang (llvm) for the rest 02:33:38 or gcc if absoslutely needed 02:33:41 *absolutely 02:33:43 libc is probably newlib 02:33:47 or eglibc for shit things that require glibc 02:33:50 Rugxulo: no it can't 02:33:54 it just compiles them and runs them 02:34:00 you can do that with anything. besides, it's useless 02:34:01 in rAM? 02:34:05 no 02:34:07 to a temp file 02:34:17 hmmm, okay 02:34:54 tcc is cool though... shinhichiro hamaji (anarchy golf owner) contributed 64-bit support to the latest release 02:35:14 I know Rob Landrey whined forever that it didn't support 64-bit 02:35:28 is that the guy that worked on it? 02:35:35 there were other reasons too iirc 02:35:36 he forked it a few times, that's all 02:35:48 his complaints were mostly complete dormancy. 02:35:53 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Colemak = ban. 02:35:56 little option other than to fork 02:35:57 well, that and relying on CVS 02:36:01 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:36:05 which he hates with a passion 02:36:49 as does anyone sane. 02:36:55 and most insane. 02:39:27 CVS's use was only excusable when the principle alternative was RCS... 02:39:48 * pikhq shudders 02:42:10 let's talk about things not likenable to laughing at a retarded kitten 02:42:53 if (argc == 2 && !strcmp(argv[1], "--version")) { 02:42:53 puts("This is not GNU sed version 4.0"); 02:42:54 return 0; 02:42:54 } 02:42:54 —busybox 02:42:59 oopps 02:43:02 chopped fof the comment 02:43:05 /* Lie to autoconf when it starts asking stupid questions. */ 02:43:09 above that 02:43:17 *oops *chopped *off 02:43:21 heh 02:43:40 'chopped' was correct ;-) 02:45:10 12:10:56 AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D 02:45:10 works fine 02:45:12 even on efnet 02:45:29 in fact it only takes a few seconds on freenode 02:45:44 there's only 5769 public rooms 02:46:12 "[#!/bin/mksh] Welcome to the portable MirBSD Korn Shell discussion channel. For mksh on MirBSD see #mirbsd on Freeforge (http://mirbsd.de/irc) as well; be invited to stay here though. Encoding: UTF-8. English spoken. Wir sprechen Deutsch." 02:46:13 oooooooooh 02:46:35 just a fork of pdksh 02:46:37 "This is the website of the MirBSD™ Korn Shell, an actively developed free implementation of the Korn Shell programming language and a successor to the Public Domain Korn Shell (pdksh)." 02:46:40 hope it ain't bloated 02:46:44 Rugxulo: pdksh is unmaintained though 02:46:47 I know 02:46:57 they also forked JOE (-> JUPP) 02:47:13 definitely not gonna ship bash 02:47:42 you can do an "--enable-minimal-config" with Bash, if desired 02:47:53 eh, much rather have a better shell 02:47:55 oh, don't forget Dash (although if you dislike GPL, it probably is) 02:48:01 dash will be available for compatibility, probably 02:48:13 for shell scripting, rc will be overwhelmingly recommended 02:49:15 I'm consdering shipping the Heirloom tools http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/ as the userlaand 02:49:18 *userland 02:49:53 I don't think rc will run autoconf scripts, so you'll have to use dash or similar 02:50:11 no duh, rc is totally different 02:50:21 autoconf scripts can be run with pdksh and the like. 02:50:28 since they're ridiculously over-portable. 02:50:35 which in this case happens to be advantageous for me. 02:50:39 I dunno, often they don't get enough testing 02:50:42 dash will be an optional install i.e. a package 02:50:50 if something breaks, try and fix it, else install dash 02:50:57 any reason to avoid GPL (e.g. dietlibc) explicitly? 02:51:12 well, one, I don't like GPL, but I have two specific objections to dietlibc being GPL 02:51:23 one, the author is a raving loon about it (says it's to stop microsoft stealing it to make windows better) 02:51:31 two, it means i can't redistribute non-GPL binaries compiled with it 02:51:36 so i simply cannot use it 02:51:43 (and yes, this is acknowledged by the author) 02:51:43 yeah, maybe LGPL might be better no? 02:51:47 madbrain: aha, in fact 02:51:51 uclibc is lgpl and i can't use it either 02:51:52 because 02:51:54 since i statically link 02:51:54 non-GPL compatible, maybe, but that's not a huge problem as lots of stuff is GPL anyways 02:51:59 i'd have to distribute the unlinked .o 02:52:05 with the binary 02:52:11 (the program's .o) 02:52:16 Rugxulo: ha ha ha ha ha ha HA 02:52:18 well then just do that 02:52:28 Rugxulo: no, a large amount of non-shit software is non-gpl 02:52:40 I know others exist, but GPL is definitely popular 02:52:48 for instance all suckless tools, all ported plan 9 tools, ... and a lot of shit software is non-gpl too: xorg, ncurses, ... 02:53:00 clang, etc. 02:53:13 Rugxulo: let's put it this way — simply by selecting the least crappy software I can, I will be shipping almost no GPL'd code 02:53:29 depending on having all the programs I ship be GPL will simply never happen 02:53:37 anyway, my first objection stands regardless of anything; he's a loon 02:53:42 (in fact he's a rather well-known loon) 02:54:00 btw since when is clang gpl. 02:54:14 it's bsd just like llvm 02:54:27 ...which is why I'm probably going to use it as the main userspace compiler 02:54:29 llvm-gcc is the only GPL thing of LLVM. 02:54:39 (will have to write my own a.out support for LLVM; easy enough) 02:54:45 no, I said Clang was BSD 02:54:52 you didn't, but i see how to parse it now 02:54:58 I'm not denying other licenses exist, but GPL is everywhere (seemingly) 02:55:34 thankfully those sane enough to produce decent software are also almost always sane enough to avoid the gpl 02:55:46 let's see, what will be gpl'd that i ship... linux and... 02:55:49 um. .. 02:55:55 pretty sure that's it 02:56:01 VIM is GPL compatible, but I don't know the exact details 02:56:04 (ofc there will be gpl'd packages available, talking about default distribution) 02:56:21 ah, okay, linux and vim then 02:56:33 — I'd prefer to ship a better vi clone than vim but they all kinda suck 02:56:36 Perl is dual licensed, I think (artistic and GPL) 02:56:39 at least vim isn't retarded about being traditional 02:56:45 Elvis? XVI? VILE? 02:56:46 i'm looking at you, http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ 02:56:56 (by the same guy as the heirloom tools incidentally) 02:57:07 elvis is unmaintained and shit, wait, i just addressed all of them :P 02:57:08 nvi 02:57:27 nvi is basically the same as http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ 02:57:32 except nvi is a reimplementation 02:57:41 I like VILE, personally, but Elvis is okay too, XVI is a little too spartan 02:57:42 and ex-vi is the real deal 02:57:52 vile isn't a vi clone anyway 02:57:58 it's emacsy vi 02:58:01 no, NVI is a clean-room reimplementation that is 8-bit clean, full undo, tab completion, etc. 02:58:19 but VILE does a lot of stuff normal vi does while keeping most "finger feel" 02:58:48 nvi is BSD, by the way 02:58:53 we'll see, anyway 02:59:03 maybe I'll just ship plan9port's acme :))) 02:59:05 (nah) 02:59:19 I will ship some 9base tools though, maybe even the whole thing 02:59:28 e3vi ? 02:59:37 ehird: Well, it's not surprising that you've got non-GPL'd stuff as the default distribution. 02:59:38 (plan9port fork that just has minimal stuff, no plan9 gui tools or whatever; rc, awk, sed, a few plan9 libs etc) 02:59:40 (hmmm, can't remember what license) 02:59:51 In fact, I might use the libutf included for osme stuff 02:59:53 *some 03:00:01 the original, and best, unicode+utf-8 library 03:00:19 (first implementation of utf-8, right after they invented it) 03:00:22 Most of the nonsuck out there is pretty much BSD. 03:00:28 no 03:00:34 No? 03:00:40 it comes in all shapes and sizes :-) 03:00:50 it really doesn't 03:00:53 good and bad stuff exists in everything 03:01:06 it takes someone sane to produce software that doesn't suck, or at least sanely insane 03:01:08 license is arbitrary 03:01:09 (There's GNU stuff that at least functions correctly, and there's old proprietary UNIX stuff that has crazy amounts of buffer overflows) 03:01:11 sane people don't use the gpl 03:01:43 the mindset someone requires to use the gpl (authoritarian, paranoia, conspiratorial anti-corporatism, ...) is the kind of mindset that produces bad software 03:01:47 (especially authoritarianism) 03:01:47 even MS (rarely) uses the GPL (for that tiny bit of driver code they wrote recently) 03:01:58 Rugxulo: and? MS stuff sucks 03:01:58 and most people consider them "most insane of all" !! 03:02:14 but 99% of their stuff ain't GPL, so ... how can it suck? ;-) 03:02:15 multiple exclamation marks. a sure sign of madness 03:02:20 Rugxulo: fallacy 03:02:28 most non-suck isn't GPL != most non-GPL isn't suck 03:02:41 come on, that's like a third grader's logical error 03:02:46 I know, but you'd think that the company with the most money could hire the best talent, and yet that isn't true either 03:02:55 they can and do, ms people are smart 03:02:58 and they shun the GPL yet still "suck" 03:03:00 it's just that they can't manage them 03:03:00 uh, no 03:03:08 uh, yes. 03:03:17 not in my experience 03:03:20 you realise, Rugxulo, that the inventors of unix worked for ms? 03:03:24 well some of them at least 03:03:26 ritchie iirc 03:03:34 not that I know of 03:03:41 eh, i forget who it was 03:03:43 I know they hired the VMS dude and owned Xenix for a while 03:03:49 Dave Cutler? 03:03:54 HAHAHAHA no 03:04:01 cutler is a moron who hates unix and spreads fud about it 03:04:21 he hates Windows too 03:04:27 no he doesn't, he loves NT 03:04:30 not anymore 03:04:39 oh, did he change his mind? exciting. 03:04:56 anyway, yes, some MS people are smart. the reason they don't have as many is because they manage the smart people terribly 03:05:00 so smart people avoid them 03:05:07 they're perfectly capable of hiring them 03:05:35 he stopped working for them after NT 4.0 (from what I heard) 03:05:48 they just kept him quiet about his differences and continued without him 03:06:02 what ... he still works at microsoft dude 03:06:05 and MS is too keen to advertise instead of actually fixing things 03:06:11 no he doesn't, at least not last I heard 03:06:14 even Zippo doesn't work there anymore 03:06:23 "David Cutler at work on Windows Azure", picture, wikipedia 03:06:24 A Community Technology Preview was given to Professional Developers Conference 2008 attendees.[3] This preview is set to expire in the 2nd quarter of 2009.[citation needed] 03:06:37 At the 2008 Professional Developers Conference, Microsoft announced Azure Services Platform, a cloud-based operating system which Microsoft is developing. During the conference keynote, Cutler was mentioned as a lead developer on the project, along with Amitabh Srivastava.[3] 03:06:41 He was officially involved with the Windows XP Pro 64-bit and Windows Server 2003 SP1 64-bit releases, as well as Windows Vista. He moved to working on Microsoft's Live Platform in August 2006. Dave Cutler was awarded the prestigious status of Technical Fellow at Microsoft. 03:06:55 http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/techfellow/Cutler/default.mspx 03:07:09 that sounds different from what I read, but what do I know? :-P 03:07:32 seems ksh doesn't support tab completion or whatever, begging the question "why use this over rc?" 03:07:48 ehird: Man... 03:07:51 only reason not to use rc is because terminals are dumb and rc only does what it shhould (be a shell) 03:07:53 That's quite awful. 03:07:54 *should 03:08:02 so as a hack, use a shitty shell that oversteps its boundaries 03:08:06 pikhq: define "that" 03:08:11 No tab completion? 03:08:13 *shudder* 03:09:18 I think?? pdksh supports tab completion 03:09:29 really cuz i installed it and i see no tabs bein' completed 03:09:34 BTW, here's what I read on Wikipedia for Cutler (discussion page, heh, not exactly official): 03:09:36 reading the manpage 03:09:36 "Cutler 'left' Microsoft in the spring of 1996. Oh yes he's 'officially' on board but that's only because Microsoft don't want to lose his name. Instead they've helped finance Cutler's race car passion. As Cutler himself said of the deal: 'it keeps me from pissing all over them'. By the time of the Denver DC the word was getting out and Microsofties were whispering in panic 'Dave is gone! Dave is gone!' —Preceding unsigned com 03:09:37 by 90.5.7.87 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008" 03:09:55 conspiracy theories; exciting 03:10:48 Interactive Input Line Editing 03:10:48 The shell supports three modes of reading command lines from a tty in 03:10:49 an interactive session. Which is used is controlled by the emacs, 03:10:52 seems promising 03:12:35 well i can edit line but not tab 03:12:47 vi-tabcomplete In vi command line editing, do 03:12:47 command / file name completion 03:12:48 when tab (^I) is entered in 03:12:48 insert mode. 03:12:49 must be close 03:13:01 "And sorry but I have first hand information that regardless of where he was officially moved he wasn't there anymore. He got sick and tired of them, did a deal to stay silent, and left. He turns up for dos and MS want his name around but he is definitely out of the picture by the spring of 1996. And that's first hand info - from the former developers on his team right outside the Tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90 03:13:01 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008" 03:14:22 yay 03:14:24 got completion working 03:14:58 set -o emacs 03:14:58 bind ^I=complete-list 03:15:00 stick in ~/.kshrc 03:15:09 or, hm 03:15:11 does it read .kshrc 03:15:36 FILES 03:15:36 ~/.profile 03:15:36 /etc/profile 03:15:37 /etc/suid_profile 03:15:37 helpful 03:17:19 whatever, those are the two commands you need 03:19:54 well, this seems to "work" 03:19:59 i'd much prefer rc, but... 03:22:59 I need to refine my C code. 03:25:42 "BTW, don't blame me for this hack; it's in the original ksh." 03:28:14 PS1="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$ " 03:30:13 What's the code to change title of xterm again? 03:32:24 Pity my code for that is in zsh... 03:35:37 set -o emacs 03:35:37 bind ^I=complete-list 03:35:38 dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')" 03:35:38 title=$(printf "\r\r\r\e]0;$dir\a\r") 03:35:38 PS1="$title$dir$ " 03:35:38 unset dir title 03:35:40 BEHOLD 03:36:20 I don't think the r stuff works properly 03:36:21 so 03:36:30 set -o emacs 03:36:30 bind ^I=complete-list 03:36:30 dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')" 03:36:31 title=$(printf "\e]0;$dir\a") 03:36:31 PS1="$title$dir$ " 03:36:31 unset dir title 03:37:16 if [ $0 = ksh ]; then . ~/.kshrc; fi 03:37:16 in ~/.profile 03:37:26 And we're done. 03:38:01 oh 03:38:03 ksh does ## 03:39:03 hmm what's the ${##} type thing to replace... 03:39:12 gah, rc is so much simpler than all of this b u l l s h i t 03:39:46 you wanna know how you get shit in the title in rc? 03:39:47 fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' } 03:39:51 that doesn't do the replacement 03:39:59 wanna know how fucking easy it is to do the replacement? 03:40:20 fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd | sed "s@^$HOME@~@"}^'\a' } 03:40:26 wait, no " quotes 03:40:27 whatever 03:40:28 you get the idea 03:40:29 trivial shit 03:40:33 damn these shells 03:41:56 btw, why do people truncate history files? 03:43:48 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 03:43:55 ahh finally 03:43:58 I have cracked it 03:45:01 wait 03:45:02 argh 03:45:32 okay, i will get this working 03:51:07 why ism't there a rlwrap that keeps track of cwd 03:51:09 isn't 03:55:18 emhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 04:10:13 -!- deschutron has joined. 04:16:22 hmm 04:16:25 -!- Pthing has joined. 04:16:53 what would be a good repartition of memory cycles for a system 04:17:59 * ehird considers writing a fortran compiler for no reason 04:18:06 considering you have 400 memory cycles per scanline (in 320x240 @ 60fps) to share between video hardware, cpu and sound 04:18:27 who needs 60fps, do 640x480 @ 30fps 04:18:51 :P 04:19:03 30fps is not NTSC or VGA compatible 04:19:06 (in fact I'd go for 1280x960 @ 15fps unless i was going to do fun demosceney stuff, but eh; no lcds really support that res) 04:19:10 madbrain: touché 04:19:21 do 24fps then :-P or 29.999997 or whatever ntsc is 04:19:33 but 320x240 is a bit low w imo 04:19:36 *low imo 04:19:52 VGA refuses to display anything that had a horiz refresh of less than 30khz 04:20:02 but you can use line doubling 04:20:21 (in fact that's what vga does for low resolution modes) 04:20:34 ehird: hmmmm 04:20:48 i mean you can do fun graphics at 320x240, but text will be ugly or limited 04:20:49 depends on the use 04:21:05 yeah text definitely benefits from 640x480 04:21:12 30fps is enough for all the fast-paced FPS games out there /shrug 04:21:17 do you mean set the video output at 30Hz, and then display each frame twice at 60Hz 04:21:18 ? 04:21:26 that could work, yep 04:22:05 If you display 640x480 on a TV, you have to make it interlaced though 04:22:26 could just use a crt 04:22:28 (non-tv) 04:22:36 yeah, that would make it VGA 04:22:45 i guess vga is too boringly conventional :-D 04:22:51 Afaik a CRT accepts most stuff you throw at it 04:22:55 yeah 04:22:58 So it's actually not bad 04:22:59 interlacing would work fine though 04:23:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:23:13 But the horiz rate has to be at least 30khz 04:23:13 well, apart from the artifacts :-P 04:23:19 mm 04:24:14 Hence 320x240 (which is actually 320x480 with each line displayed twice) and 640x480 04:24:59 Supporting a TV is cool, though... but interlacing artifacts would ruin the coolness of hooking up an fpga to a TV and seeing a spinning cube :) 04:25:20 do 576i! 04:25:33 what is that 04:25:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i 04:25:40 pal tv resolution 04:25:57 I have no device that would show it 04:26:00 what do you canucks use 04:26:02 ntsc? 04:26:04 yeah 04:26:19 yankeevision 04:26:48 low resolution might not be so bad since it's a crt tv 04:26:52 they basically antialiase for you ;-) 04:27:20 I'm probably going to base it on VGA timing 04:27:30 specifically VGA 640x480 04:28:48 I wonder if LCDs will accept 524 scanline 640x480 or if they want 525 scanlines 04:29:01 isn't vga 640x480 interlacing on a tv 04:29:13 also, LCDs just accept their native resolution. anything else is acceptable 04:29:15 it'll just scale it to shit 04:29:33 well, dunno how LCDs handle freaky hacked VGA modes 04:29:44 badly 04:30:05 one thing I know is that they guess the horiz resolution from the # of lines 04:30:28 specifically they guess 640x350, 720x400 and 640x480 04:31:11 Unfortunately that wrecks 640x400 modes (80x50 text mode and 320x200) 04:33:41 Aren't normal text modes 9 pixels wide per character cell? 04:34:09 there are both 8 pixel and 9 pixel modes! 04:34:20 that's way too small to actually read though :P 04:34:47 in fact VGA has 2 different clock crystals, one for 8 pixel mode (640x) and one for 9 pixel mode (720x) 04:35:09 Isn't there also 16 pixel mode? 04:35:17 each glyph must be 8x20 for 640x480 80x24 text mode 04:36:13 In 9 pixel mode it generates an extra pixel, usually black, without any charset data 04:36:23 by glyph i mean including spaciing 04:36:25 *spacing 04:36:28 ehird: that's a kinda weird mode 04:36:36 so assuming one pixel character separation, 04:36:40 and two pixel line separation 04:36:48 chars themselves would be 7x18 04:36:50 generally 04:37:00 well 04:37:08 yeah 04:37:22 madbrain: it's weird, but it's also fun and unconventional :P 04:37:35 more common is 640x350 80x25 with 8x14 chars, 720x400 80x25 with 8+1x16 chars 04:37:53 640x400 80x50 with 8x8 :D 04:38:01 but 80x24 is more common than 80x25 :-P 04:38:06 not on PC! 04:38:11 define pc 04:38:14 80x24 is universal on unix 04:38:15 IBM PC 04:38:23 bah :-P 04:38:35 who wants to imitate the PC! 04:39:22 I've done some ZZT and Megazeux games, the systems are based on 80x25 04:39:30 anyway, square chars are silly :-P 04:39:44 english isn't square! 04:39:50 Well, that's because our alphabet is narrow yeah :D 04:40:21 8x12 might be good; gives you 80x40 04:40:31 which is an *excellent* size for English text 04:40:53 (and programming...) 04:41:26 might be a bit TOO narrow though 04:41:40 oh, of course 04:41:45 use two pixels at bottom or top for line spacing 04:41:47 and only one for char spacing 04:41:55 (of course you can use them for characters that don't quite fit...) 04:42:03 that way it isn't quite as narrow but the glyphs are still 8x12 04:42:12 8 04:42:13 ok, I have my VGA tweaking program ready to use :D 04:42:13 12 04:42:57 http://www.gameprogrammer.com/demos/tweak16b.zip <- a good old classic vga tweaking program some dude wrote in 1993 04:44:53 drawing non-cookie-cutter pixel fonts is hard 04:45:00 ok, the monitor can definitely cope with a missing vga line or two :D 04:45:17 8x12 would be cool to serif 04:45:17 ehird: I drew a couple in megazeux's char editor 04:45:24 * ehird plays with it 04:45:30 (8x14 of course since that's what megazeux uses) 04:46:06 The best trick with text mode fonts is to keep using 2 pixel wide vertical lines 04:49:00 hmm, that could make this look less like an outline, yeah 04:49:56 ooh 04:50:00 there's enough variation to do bold here 04:50:03 i like this size 04:55:30 madbrain: 7x12 might be better for english text, actually (regular glyph size 6x10 due to spacing) 04:55:45 although... hmm 04:55:46 nah 04:55:53 (it's just that "c" looks a bit stretched) 04:57:14 hmm 04:57:24 madbrain: does 640x480 on a tv have square pixels? 04:57:35 on TVs? 04:57:38 yah 04:57:49 On TVs it's probably something like "who knows" 04:58:09 I can't remember if TVs eat the top and bottom 8 lines 04:58:17 but possibly yes 04:59:17 funny how the pixels look different when you zoom out 04:59:24 most CRTs are so crappy as to smooth out any oddities anyway :D 04:59:41 At least ZSNES seems to output 256x224 05:00:09 and wow — 640x480 is a lot with 8x12 characters! (7x10 regular glyphs yada yada yada) 05:00:28 could fit a novel onto one screen :P 05:00:46 yeah 05:01:08 80x40 doesn't seem much, but it looks like it... 05:01:50 Many apps use 80x50 05:02:42 Funny how you have to do slightly different m etrics to get bold characters to have the same shape as regular ones. 05:03:00 *metrics 05:03:36 why don't people do more serifed pixel fonts? 05:03:50 Dunno, I like sans serif :D 05:04:01 so do I, but serif pixel fonts look nice 05:04:08 since the serifs are so tiny, it's just like adding some spice to it 05:04:18 It's a style yeah 05:04:36 Sans serif is a bit more stylistically neutral 05:05:19 but all sans serif pixel fonts look the same :) 05:05:34 Depends if you're creative :D 05:06:55 well definitely my, what was it, 3x4 glyphs (always 1px spacing around it, so 4x5 if you want ot be pedantic) were pretty unique and yet the same... 05:07:04 unique because I had to contort lots of characters in fun ways, the same because, well 05:07:18 there aren't many ways to draw the alphabet, numbers and some punctuation at that size 05:07:25 although i did have two sets of numbers, lowercase and uppercase 05:07:28 that went with the corresponding alphabet 05:07:29 I suggest 8 pixel wide 05:07:38 and every single one was different 05:07:48 madbrain: glyph or char (spacing) 05:07:59 glyph w/o spacing char w/ 05:08:30 Including spacing, so 7 pixel of data 05:08:48 Unless you also use the spacing pixels! 05:09:10 sometimes you can use them for e.g. accents 05:09:13 or punctuation 05:09:15 and descenders 05:09:22 (ascenders it's generally best to leave the normal spacing) 05:10:00 the one I'm doing now is 7x10 usual glyph, 8x12 size 05:10:10 so your suggestion has been heeded :-P 05:10:38 yeah you need space for descencers, accents over capital letters 05:10:40 etc 05:10:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:10:53 i have a whole two vertical pixels available for descenders :-P 05:10:56 (the vertical spacing at the bottom) 05:11:29 no real space for accents though :-D 05:11:30 I think 8x14 fonts normally have 2 space lines at the top and 3 at the bottom 05:11:44 boring 05:11:53 7x10 glyphs are just enough to be able to design :P 05:12:02 e is really hard though 05:12:27 dunno, you don't have to squeeze it 05:12:34 compared to, say, m 05:12:39 well, to get it looking like my other chars 05:12:41 Also sometimes hard: s 05:12:44 And T 05:12:52 there we go 05:13:01 madbrain: aah s was almost impossible in my 3x4-glyph font 05:13:05 also Z vs 2 05:13:12 and z vs Z 05:13:19 (capital letter = lowercase letter height for space) 05:13:39 in the end I used an optical illusion to make it look like z was like a small zeta even though it had no curve :P 05:13:40 most snes games use sans serif 05:13:53 I used the same to do N 05:13:59 i had to optical illusion the slant 05:15:57 just don't make it into a typewriter font :D 05:16:50 heh, why? 05:17:53 Dunno, I always thought courrier looked awful :D 05:18:27 oh god, it does 05:18:30 i hate courier 05:19:34 some games have chinese calligraphy imitation fonts 05:19:58 although it's hard to shoehorn latin letters into chinese calligraphy due to the kind of shape they use :D 05:20:08 xD 05:22:16 my bold letters look smaller 05:22:23 well they are, i guess, they're shorter generally, the lowercase parts 05:22:26 but that's just so they don't look weird 05:24:50 ooh f is a challenge 05:26:33 success, I think 05:26:39 looks a bit weird, but oho well 05:26:43 very serif 05:28:42 I should use this as a terminal font 05:34:16 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:34:53 I think there's this idea that sans serif is closer to a "pure" version of the letters 05:35:13 that's true, but it also reflects why sans serif pixel fonts almost all look identical 05:35:27 because you have to express the purest form in such constraints, there's almost a "right way" to do it 05:35:29 *do it 05:35:49 at bigger sizes there's more ambiguity, so to speak, so you can have unique sans serif typefaces 05:35:58 but going smaller, serifs really help to distinguish it 05:41:11 hoo yeah 05:41:17 wut 05:41:21 just found the vga 28mhz clock bit 05:42:04 argh, fucking i 05:42:08 how do you make i span 7 chars 05:42:10 pixels 05:42:14 you don't, and you have a shitload of spacing 05:42:16 stupid monospace 05:43:28 Eh, that's monospace 05:43:35 yeah 05:43:38 monospace is pretty silly. 05:43:51 although you can get it to 4 pixels wide with serif 05:43:58 yeah 05:44:00 Monospace isn't silly :D 05:44:06 sure is 05:44:35 wait, how four pixels 05:44:36 i have 3 06:02:04 most modes that would be neat flat out don't work 06:02:19 aww 06:02:24 modes as in text modes or 06:02:31 vga modes 06:02:34 -!- coppro has joined. 06:03:24 which neat ones don't work? 06:04:09 80x40 text mode 640x480 with 8x12 chars DOES work though :D 06:04:21 ^__^ 06:04:24 The best mode there is! 06:04:38 the ones that aren't 320x or 360x (or 640x or 720x for 16 color and text modes) 06:04:52 80x48 might be cooler tho 06:05:01 since you can have two unix terminals at once 06:05:07 80x50 for PC 06:05:11 80x48 is really easy to hack 06:05:26 hmm yeah, too easy 06:05:37 just need to do 8x10 06:05:38 basically character height is free 06:05:50 because it has no effect on monitor timing 06:06:00 80x12 is better for text, anyway, so losing a few lines is no big deal 06:06:16 monitor timing is the stupid part where the monitor gets finnicky and refuses your mode 06:06:23 heh 06:06:34 madbrain: what's the lowest res and highest timing you ca n d o 06:06:35 *can do 06:06:38 *can do 06:07:34 VGA is not meant for modes other than x350, x400 and x480 although normally modes with less lines actually do work 06:07:54 try :D 06:10:10 what works is modes with faster frame rates and more lines, except VGA has a fixed clock so none of these modes are practical outside SVGA 06:17:49 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 06:31:57 "Of the 51 system calls present in Plan 9, we have written equivalents of the most essential ones, allowing simple executables like cat, sed, grep and even the Plan 9 C compiler, 8c to run unmodified on Linux." —Glendix 06:32:00 maybe i could reuse the c compiler 06:32:01 (nah) 06:32:04 too standards incompliant 06:32:17 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:37:57 http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/technology/computers/7869585-man-using-trackball.php?id=7869585 hypnotic 06:43:03 -!- cal153 has joined. 06:53:32 "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and then Berkeley had what we called 'copycenter', which is 'take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want.'" — Kirk McKusick, BSDCon 1999 06:55:01 "Controversial decisions are often made differently from OpenBSD; for instance, there won't be any support for SMP in MirOS." let me know how that works out for you 07:02:54 -!- deschutron has left (?). 07:04:27 ooh 07:04:32 an alternative to llvm/clang? mayhaps 07:06:06 http://pcc.zentus.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/os/linux/ccconfig.h?rev=1.16;content-type=text%2Fplain Repeat after me! Linux! Is! Not! ELF! 07:37:23 * ehird attempts to use CVS as a DVCS 07:37:24 MWAHAHAHA 07:45:05 That was surprisingly easy 07:48:39 Ew, I even got pulling and pushing for free 07:48:48 I feel dirty now (← DO NOT TAKE THESE TWO LINES OUT OF CONTEXT) 07:49:21 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg 07:49:23 This image is photoshopped 07:49:24 This image is photoshopped 07:49:25 This image is photoshopped 07:49:27 This image is photoshopped or a ripoff 07:49:36 Oh god AnMaster, you are so lucky to have bought yours already 07:49:38 ;_; 07:52:18 waaaaaaaait, it looks 4:3 07:52:21 must be a shop. 07:56:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:56:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:47 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 08:09:35 A C compiler that compiles in less than a minute. Refreshing. 08:14:30 Which? 08:17:52 http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/, an update of the old pcc. BSD licensed. 08:17:58 Ah, PCC. 08:18:03 Tiny, fast. Good platform support. Good GCC compatibility. 08:18:08 BSDs are eyeing it to replace GCC eventually. 08:18:16 It also compiles very quickly. 08:18:22 (as in, compiles code you give to it) 08:18:23 A C compiler that doesn't have more abstraction layers than frontends. :P 08:18:28 and the compiler itself compiles in less than a minute 08:18:30 pikhq: :-D 08:18:43 * ehird makes it compile itself 08:19:33 Unfortunately it doesn't have -Os yet 08:19:47 but methinks this may be a contender for the main compiler 08:19:53 Minimalist, well-coded, well-licensed, and fast. 08:20:11 "YACC The `Yet Another C Compiler' implementation to use." 08:20:16 a typo in autoconf?! 08:20:28 ... Man. 08:20:34 :| 08:20:47 And I thought autoconf was a well-implemented bad idea, rather than a typo'd one. :P 08:20:56 I sure hope someone changed that in some pcc file, because oh my word. 08:20:59 ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY? 08:21:01 erm 08:21:03 /usr/include//stdarg.h:8: error: "This header only supports __MWERKS__." 08:21:03 ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY? 08:21:13 #if defined(__GNUC__) 08:21:14 #include_next 08:21:14 #elif defined(__MWERKS__) 08:21:14 #include "mw_stdarg.h" 08:21:14 #else 08:21:15 #error "This header only supports __MWERKS__." 08:21:16 #endif 08:21:21 *facepalms* 08:21:50 *facepalm* 08:21:57 Additionally, stdargs.h only works with gcc. Paste the following lines into /usr/local/lib/pcc/stdarg.h: 08:22:00 Thanks pcc website 08:22:01 * ehird pastes 08:22:15 It does the obvious: 08:22:17 #ifndef _STDARG_H_ 08:22:17 #define _STDARG_H_ 08:22:17 #define va_list char * 08:22:17 #define _VA_LIST 08:22:18 #define va_start(ap, last) __builtin_stdarg_start((ap), last) 08:22:18 #define va_arg(ap, type) __builtin_va_arg((ap), type) 08:22:20 #define va_end(ap) __builtin_va_end((ap)) 08:22:22 #define va_copy(dest, src) __builtin_va_copy((dest), (src)) 08:22:24 #endif 08:22:26 Oops, flood. Sorry. 08:22:46 ld whines a lot about 08:22:47 ld warning: can't find atom for N_GSYM stabs _stublist:G1 in compat.o 08:22:53 and we get the error 08:22:56 pcc -DGCC_COMPAT -DPCC_DEBUG -Dos_darwin -Dmach_i386 -D_ISOC99_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../.. -I../../mip -I../../arch/i386 -I../../os/darwin -g -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -Wtruncate -c -o pftn.o pftn.c 08:22:56 pftn.c, line 1856: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x839b70 op OREG 08:22:58 But before that? 08:22:59 Damn that flew. 08:23:35 for (i = 0, base = tylnk.next; base; base = base->next, i++) 08:23:35 a[i] = base->df; 08:23:41 Odd place to fail (the second line, I think) 08:55:53 Maybe it's in fact the previous line. 08:57:32 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg <-- huh 08:57:40 probably either photoshopped or a fake. 08:57:45 (ripoff fake that is) 08:57:46 ehird, probably 08:57:55 especially note that stretched thinkpad logo≥ 08:57:55 what's about it 08:57:57 *logo. 08:58:04 puzzlet: it's an abomination against thinkpads 08:58:08 ehird, yes indeed 08:58:10 - chiclet keyboard (seriously!!) 08:58:11 - white shell 08:58:17 - ugh, just so ugly 08:58:25 ehird, chiclet keyboard? 08:58:30 what do you mean 08:58:31 look carefully 08:58:33 the keys are separated 08:58:35 think macbook keyboard 08:58:37 or sony vaio 08:58:42 ehird, oh indeed 08:58:48 also shallower than most laptop keyboards 08:58:58 i'm fairly sure lenovo would never do this though 08:59:02 unless to the sl line, which sucks anyway 08:59:23 sl line? 08:59:34 thinkpad SL. 08:59:41 "consumer"; glossy, iirc 16:9 not sure though 08:59:45 ouch 08:59:47 internals are not actually thinkpad internals. 08:59:51 (taken from ideapad or something) 09:00:00 * AnMaster googles ideapad 09:00:09 "consumer" lenovo notebooks 09:00:13 ah 09:00:50 AnMaster: link me to latest cfunge code drop or bzr or whatever 09:00:55 I'm gonna try and compile it with pcc :) 09:01:42 ehird, it doesn't compile with pcc. at least didn't last I tried. 09:01:48 new pcc or old. 09:01:51 pcc failing at C99 09:01:55 that's been improved. 09:01:55 ehird, about half a year ago? 09:01:56 massively 09:01:59 ehird, ah 09:02:05 well. sec for code 09:02:06 http://www.bsdfund.org/projects/pcc/ 09:02:10 see "improved c99 functionality". 09:02:31 bzr branch lp:cfunge/trunk 09:03:14 "Support BSD with every purchase! Every time you use the BSD Fund Visa, a small donation is made to BSD Fund to support its programs." 09:03:14 That requires some dedication... 09:03:54 https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk 09:04:06 maybe there is a "get a tarball" link there somewhere 09:04:09 can't see one though 09:04:17 Already branched. 09:04:29 CMake seems happy with pcc so far, using ccmake. 09:04:49 Default settings are fine to build a full cfunge, yep? 09:05:12 ehird, should be. Not sure if cmake is likely to mess something up there 09:05:20 with pcc I mean 09:05:21 time make go 09:05:30 [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/genx/genx.c.o 09:05:34 /Users/ehird/Downloads/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c, line 848: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x81c490 op >> 09:05:38 Eventful build, that. 09:05:42 hah 09:05:47 Note: This is probably due to me being on OS X. 09:05:53 Want I should try it in my Arch VM? 09:05:54 ehird, that file isn't even very C99ish 09:05:59 See note about OS X. 09:06:15 ehird, well. feel free to. I tried it under FreeBSD iirc 09:07:15 "Command substitution was something else I added because that gives you very general mechanism to do string processing; it allows you to get strings back from commands and use them as the text of the script as if you had typed it directly. I think this was a new idea that I, at least, had not seen in scripting languages, except perhaps LISP." 09:07:15 Fuck you Bourne, it was a really terrible idae. 09:07:16 *idea 09:07:44 ehird, why? 09:07:48 if you mean `` 09:07:59 (and later on $() ) 09:08:01 because you have to put quotes everywhere so that it ends up just like a regular programming language 09:08:02 it is very useful 09:08:26 okay good point 09:08:27 all uses of it in non-quoted ways apart from to send as arguments (like python *foo) are harmful hacks because the shell is crippled 09:08:53 "sudo pacman -S bzr cvs" 09:09:21 cvs? 09:09:25 for pcc. 09:09:35 AnMaster: Also: "Moreover - although the v7 shell is written in C - Bourne took advantage of some macros[1] to give the C source code an ALGOL 68 flavor." 09:09:40 Basically this guy is totally crazy. 09:09:54 ("Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is. Even examination of the source code is little help." —Tom Duff) 09:10:09 hah 09:10:15 http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/main.c.html 09:10:21 Feast your eyes upon the macroed horror!!!! 09:10:31 IF (flags&prompt) ANDF standin->fstak==0 ANDF !eof 09:10:32 THENIF mailnod.namval 09:10:32 ANDF stat(mailnod.namval,&statb)>=0 ANDF statb.st_size 09:10:32 ANDF (statb.st_mtime != mailtime) 09:10:32 ANDF mailtime 09:10:33 THENprs(mailmsg) 09:10:34 FI 09:11:06 heh 09:11:30 Sweet, pcc supports pdp11. 09:11:30 UFD output = 2; 09:11:30 LOCAL BOOL beenhere = FALSE; 09:11:31 huh 09:11:43 Also pdp10. 09:12:15 ehird, but ksh isn't this bad 09:12:19 afaik? 09:12:26 pdksh probably isn't so bad. 09:12:37 I'm still erring on the side of rc for the shell 09:12:56 ehird, who was that "Tom Duff" you mentioned (invokes aisness) 09:13:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Duff. he also has an account on our wiki, and that picture is horrible 09:13:31 AnMaster: duff device 09:13:33 ah! 09:13:36 that duff 09:13:43 http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/gfx/pjw.ps.17761.gif 09:13:46 much better picture :-P 09:13:58 wait, that's "pjw" 09:14:09 wrong person 09:14:10 ? 09:14:13 yeah 09:14:57 Hmm, pcc doesn't do C++. 09:15:07 ehird, not an issue is it? 09:15:11 just use clang 09:15:17 when it becomes stable for c++ 09:15:22 It can do WebKit. 09:15:26 Linking clangged WebKit with pcc'd surf, though? 09:15:29 Sounds risky. 09:15:39 ehird, why not use clang for everything? 09:15:47 well, apart from kernel 09:15:48 pcc is simpler, faster. 09:15:52 that isn't supported yet iirc 09:16:25 * ehird is considering purchasing a trackball 09:16:42 it's just... i think i've retarded my thumbs using a mouse for so lnog 09:16:45 *long 09:16:46 seriously 09:16:53 emulating trackball motion is uncomfortable 09:17:25 * ehird make clean, reconfigure w— 09:17:29 oh, I forgot to compile the libraries first 09:17:37 pcc-libs go go go 09:18:06 ehird, hah 09:19:06 Can too create executables! 09:19:25 Oh. 09:19:31 Would help if pcc was in my path, ehehehehe... 09:19:37 Oops, turned into MKRY there. 09:20:17 AnMaster: have you ever used a trackball? 09:20:33 ehird, yes. found it quite awkward. Only very temporarily 09:20:41 when helping someone having one with a computer issue. 09:20:43 some years ago 09:20:43 Thumb or finger? 09:20:51 i.e. trackball in middle or to the side 09:20:56 ehird, I think the ball was on the side 09:21:22 Uncomfortable just after your thumb (bottom of your hand), would you say? That's what I'm getting when attempting it in thin air 09:21:30 The lifting up motion, so to speak. 09:21:37 Woot, pcc compiles itself. 09:21:38 ehird, The fact that it was a left hand edition didn't help 09:21:44 oh. 09:21:46 Well that'd do it. 09:21:59 Aaaand pcc is replaced by a pcc compiled by itself YO DAWG 09:22:01 ehird, I actually use mouse quite well with either hand 09:22:29 * AnMaster has a symetric mouse for that reason 09:25:02 ehird, any luck with cfunge? 09:25:05 pcc cannot compile a simple test program, sweet 09:25:14 "ld: cannot find -lc" 09:25:22 wat. 09:25:30 ehird, heh 09:25:34 that would be libc 09:25:39 i gathered 09:25:54 /lib/libc.so.6 exists. 09:28:05 ehird, well then. I can't help you at all 09:28:10 no clue with pcc 09:28:19 It's ld, not pcc. 09:29:17 ehird, does gcc work? 09:29:30 Hm; no. 09:29:37 base-devel is all you need in arch, right? 09:29:37 well then 09:30:01 ehird, uh. maybe. not 100% sure. I know it works on my arch system for sure 09:30:07 but it was so long ago I set it up 09:30:43 * ehird upgrades glibc 09:30:59 Aaaand it works 09:31:13 Nope. 09:31:17 Not with pcc it doesn't. 09:32:15 wait if gcc didn't work. How comes you could compile pcc at all? 09:32:29 I don't know, don't ask me. 09:32:41 fair enough 09:32:56 Maybe only pcc is adding -lc, and I forgot to rm -rf before ccmaking without CC=pcc. 09:32:58 So it used pcc again. 09:33:03 But pcc could compile pcc. 09:33:06 So cmake is fucking up. 09:33:30 ehird, possible. Or pcc is having issues with one of the cmake tests 09:33:38 No. 09:33:40 ehird, check if cmake works with gcc for cfunge 09:33:40 It is ld. 09:33:46 "-lc" is wrong, whyever it's being added. 09:33:50 I did. It does. 09:33:53 or at least 09:33:55 it starts configuring 09:33:57 properly 09:34:09 well then. if it passes the point where cmake fails pcc? 09:34:12 hm 09:34:59 ehird, just that I know cfunge breaks some older cmake 2.6 versions. IIRC the interval [2.6, 2.6.3) 09:35:12 2.6-patch 4 09:35:17 Is that 2.6.4? 09:35:26 ehird, yeah same thing. Just me being lazy 09:35:43 ehird, anyway it breaks it by throwing a syntax error during the configure thing 09:35:52 on the cmake moduls 09:35:58 modules* 09:37:07 Hmm. 09:37:29 There's also /usr/lib/libc.so 09:37:33 huh 09:37:42 ehird, run file on it 09:37:48 because I have a vague idea 09:37:56 ASCII C program text?! 09:38:05 ehird, ah a linker script 09:38:05 oh 09:38:07 it's a gnu ld script 09:38:08 heh 09:38:12 But my ld is gnu... 09:38:24 Anyway, won't it use /lib/libc.so.6? 09:38:28 instead of that. 09:38:32 ehird, no fucking clue 09:38:38 it should by that linker script 09:38:47 Use the shared library, but some functions are only in 09:38:47 the static library, so try that secondarily. */ 09:38:47 OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64) 09:38:47 GROUP ( /lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) ) 09:38:49 err 09:38:52 comment fail 09:38:54 first line was: 09:38:56 yeah, that's what i have too 09:38:57 /* GNU ld script 09:39:02 ehird, that is on gentoo btw 09:39:37 but it should be similar. maybe some diff in the /lib64 bit depending on how exactly the multilib stuff is done 09:39:51 (or if it is 32-bit) 09:39:59 Ohh, of course. 09:40:02 ENABLE_64BIT is on. 09:40:15 ehird, that only affects size of funge cells 09:40:17 I'll look in the retarded 64 directories — hey, another problem my distro doesn't have! :P 09:40:24 AnMaster: well it's 64 bit arch too 09:40:25 so 09:40:37 ehird, it is int32_t vs. int64_t for funge cells 09:40:40 aha 09:40:41 that is all it does 09:40:41 mine differs 09:40:47 OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf32-i386) 09:40:48 AND 09:40:49 I have no lib64s 09:40:52 CONCLUSION 09:40:55 what in cry's name 09:40:59 do i need some sort of 09:41:02 magic-64bit-package 09:41:12 ehird, wait, is the distro 64-bit? 09:41:18 ...wait. 09:41:19 No. 09:41:19 * AnMaster only has 32-bit arch handy 09:41:20 XD 09:41:35 I'm so confused... about everything... 09:41:46 ehird, nothing new there ;P 09:41:51 Ha, a blind person who likes Python. 09:41:56 "Tab. Tab. print" 09:42:03 ehird, joking? 09:42:07 Nope, really 09:42:11 wow 09:42:15 that's... unexpected 09:42:16 [[I code with edbrowse, which is a derivitive of /bin/ed]] 09:42:19 Hardcore 09:42:22 (Also the only option) 09:42:28 only option? how so? 09:42:41 The whole blind thing doesn't mesh with, you know, graphical editors. 09:42:46 true 09:42:50 (Including vi and all) 09:42:56 ehird, one of those braile ttys? 09:43:02 Meh. 09:43:04 for multiline text display 09:43:06 Screenreaders are easier. 09:43:10 And make typing easier. 09:43:19 ehird, possibly. *imagines Microsoft sam reading lisp code* 09:43:30 I sort of wish I could be temporarily blind, just so I could set up a tricked out text-to-speech environmeent. 09:43:33 *environment 09:45:30 ehird, blindfold? 09:45:42 It's tempting! 09:45:58 * AnMaster imagines ehird's parents reaction on that 09:46:01 It's a whole fun avenue of interface design that I'm totally deprived of. Blind people have it easy! 09:46:09 wait I think I missed some ' there 09:46:54 ehird, you know. Since you aren't deaf you could use it even when without a blindfold 09:47:18 But I'd cheat by looking. 09:47:29 Also, it'd be boring. :P 09:47:31 Somehow. 09:47:41 ehird, turn off the monitor? 09:47:47 and unplug it's cable 09:47:53 oh wait. imac 09:47:56 nvm 09:48:33 What I mean is, looking at something that doesn't change (assuming I blanked the screen). 09:48:35 Would get boring. 09:49:34 ehird, um 09:50:20 Just remember to not eat any floating eyes to get the most realistic being-blind blindfold experience. 09:50:21 ehird, tell me if you manage to get pcc to work 09:50:42 fizzie, hah 09:50:42 Wait. 09:50:45 I can just do -Wl,-v 09:50:46 Duh 09:50:48 Or is it -V 09:50:51 -V? 09:50:54 verbose 09:51:01 $ ld -V 09:51:02 GNU ld (GNU Binutils) 2.18 09:51:02 Supported emulations: 09:51:02 elf_x86_64 09:51:02 elf_i386 09:51:02 i386linux 09:51:04 well not -V 09:51:06 try 09:51:08 ld --help 09:51:13 Or just --verbose :P 09:51:25 --verbose it is 09:51:38 Actually, it is the same as -V 09:51:41 that dumps the entire default linker script it seems 09:51:45 I think 09:51:48 ehird, ld --verbose != ld -V 09:51:51 in my tests 09:51:54 Well, it's dumping the script too 09:51:55 not sure with arguments 09:52:09 --verbose dumps linker script, -V doens't 09:52:12 doesn't* 09:52:13 for me 09:52:25 -v, --version Print version information 09:52:25 -V Print version and emulation information 09:52:25 "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed" 09:52:29 YOU ARE STUPID AND YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID 09:52:31 --verbose Output lots of information during link 09:52:46 ehird, pcc is doing something strange with the arguments? 09:52:54 Dunno 09:52:57 ehird, I'm pretty sure it must have passed the full path for that to happen 09:53:00 But it should surely then look at the next directory 09:53:04 It's definitely -lc 09:53:49 well 09:53:52 here it goes like: 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.so failed 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.a failed 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/lib64/libc.so failed 09:53:59 [...] 09:54:08 attempt to open /usr/lib64/libc.so succeeded 09:54:08 opened script file /usr/lib64/libc.so 09:54:12 attempt to open /lib64/libc.so.6 succeeded 09:54:17 /lib64/libc.so.6 09:54:35 Any way to get ld to tell me what arguments it'd getting? 09:56:05 ehird, hm *looks* 09:56:19 *it's 09:56:45 ehird, make ld a shell script that prints args then call the real ld 09:56:57 that should work at the very least 09:56:59 That would be my second choice. 09:57:01 Or just LD=echo 09:57:39 doesn't work uggh 09:57:40 *ugh 09:58:33 ehird, strace 09:58:34 strace it is always an option. 09:58:39 AHA 09:58:41 fizzie, hah beat you to it! 09:58:41 Rrrr, AnMaster's too fast. 09:58:41 YOU HAVE BEEN REVEALED 09:58:47 AnMaster, fizzie: I KNEW YOU WERE THE SAME 09:58:52 fizzie is just major trolling me with AnMaster 09:58:57 you scoundrel! 09:59:02 I should've just stopped at "strace" without bothering with the trailing part. 09:59:03 ehird, you got that backwards 09:59:12 But fizzie doesn't annoy me. 09:59:19 ehird, that is the whole point 09:59:23 ehird, to confuse you 09:59:27 Deep, man. 09:59:46 ehird, trolling by niceness 10:00:09 Please do that some more; it's devastating. 10:00:27 strace + ncurses = LOL WUT 10:00:56 ehird, oh is this in cmake? 10:01:01 try cmake instad of ccmake 10:01:02 yah 10:01:04 just did 10:01:07 and set CC=pcc before 10:01:08 of course 10:01:10 well 10:01:15 path to pcc if it isn't in path 10:01:30 ehird, and use the follow forks mode 10:01:39 otherwise it won't tell you anything useful 10:01:40 what flag's that 10:01:56 strace -f 10:01:57 iirc 10:02:04 -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files 10:02:04 -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message 10:02:16 Whee hueg spew to my console. 10:02:19 X is for weenies. 10:02:43 Yes, -o is often a good idea for strace too. 10:02:52 fizzie, indeed 10:02:59 and in this case probably -ff 10:03:05 since there will be lots of forks 10:03:34 I'd do -f; you can grep a single file just as easily as multiple files. 10:03:45 well true 10:04:01 "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed" <-- last solution: symlink that to the right file? 10:04:14 How about no :P 10:04:22 ehird, oh btw your tripplet would be different 10:04:26 no linux-gnu 10:04:27 Tripppppppppppppplet. 10:04:32 Also, yeah. 10:04:36 haha nice typo indeed 10:04:37 It'll be i686-pc-linux-newlib. 10:04:44 AnMaster: better trippplet 10:05:00 "Trippppy, man." 10:05:03 Where does the executable format go in a full whateverlet? 10:05:06 After the arch? 10:05:48 Wait, what? It's executing /usr/local/bin/ld. 10:06:02 ehird, it is? 10:06:04 Which uh, doesn't exist 10:06:08 Does -f follow vforks? 10:06:12 ehird, no 10:06:13 As well 10:06:14 Hmm 10:06:15 you need -F for that 10:06:18 Because there's a vfork() here 10:06:20 see above 10:06:24 Does -F follow fork()s or do i need both 10:06:29 " -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message" 10:06:32 ehird, not sure 10:06:34 maybe both 10:06:36 I'll do both 10:06:48 Ah, the local one fails 10:06:50 Then it goes /bin 10:06:50 argh wait 10:06:52 man page: 10:06:53 Then /usr/bin 10:06:54 -F This option is now obsolete and it has the same functionality as -f. 10:06:56 ehird, ^ 10:06:57 lawl 10:06:58 okay then 10:07:01 *groan* 10:07:51 It looks for libc.so and .a in the pcc dir, then /usr/i686{...}/lib/libc.{so,a} 10:07:55 then local- libc.so 10:07:57 then local-libc.a 10:07:58 then /lib 10:08:01 then /usr/lib .so 10:08:08 which succeeds 10:08:11 finds the script 10:08:22 then goes t o /usr/lib/libc.so, um, again? whatever 10:08:39 Then it goes to /lib/libc.so.6 which works (!) 10:08:49 ehird, then what causes the error? 10:09:00 then it reads something into a buffer containing "the 'gets' function is dangerous[…]" xD 10:09:20 ehird, oh well I don't use it. It probably just reads a section listing bad stuff. 10:09:22 Then it goes to /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a, no fucking clue why 10:09:27 for warnings 10:09:33 /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a exists? 10:09:48 * AnMaster wonders what the local-libc is 10:09:51 then local- libc.so 10:09:51 then local-libc.a 10:09:52 /usr/local 10:09:53 both? 10:09:56 yes 10:10:01 now it goes to /lib/ld-linux.so.2 10:10:03 the space one? 10:10:08 ??????? 10:10:09 ehird, expected for parths 10:10:12 parts* 10:10:20 runtime linker 10:10:23 gotta go 10:10:25 -!- ehird has quit. 10:10:26 probably dlopen()ing 10:10:28 huh 10:10:28 why 11:08:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:39:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 11:42:29 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:02:23 hi ais523 12:02:39 hi 12:03:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 12:05:32 * AnMaster considers the differences between the ubuntu installer and the netbsd installer. 12:06:30 I think the netbsd installer is asking me more questions than even the ubuntu installer in expert mode on that alternative cd did.. 12:07:08 ooh like this: "Please choose the password cipher to use. NetBSD can be configured to use either the DES, MD5, Blowfish or SHA1 schemes." 12:08:05 and 'If you are upgrading and would like to keep configuration unchanged, choose the last option "do not change".' 12:08:17 (why can't it check that itself btw...) 12:28:31 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:53:25 -!- augur_ has joined. 12:53:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:56:14 -!- FireyFly has joined. 13:31:59 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 13:33:36 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:33:39 -!- augur has joined. 13:46:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:48:50 I don't quite see how the installer is supposed to check whether the user wants to change something or not except by asking the user, like it's doing there. 13:51:20 fizzie, well, you have to select one of them on first install. So giving an option to not change on a new install is weird 13:51:24 since it is meant for upgrades 13:51:40 oh it also asks you if you *want* to see the root password 13:51:46 as if you wouldn't 13:52:23 That's for cryptanalysts that want a can-I-break-it test where they can't cheat. (Okay, so not really.) 13:52:47 XD 13:53:56 Feh; "2 November 2009: Notification of accepted applications" was promised, but I haven't received any emails yet. Certainly there's still many hours of 2 Nov remaining, but still. 13:58:28 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 14:00:50 fizzie, for what? 14:01:28 For my thesis research funding thing. 14:02:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:02:24 fizzie, so you suspect you weren't accpted? 14:02:47 ouch 14:04:02 Actually I suspect otherwise, based on very unofficial hush-hush rumours from my super²visor (who was in the graduate school board meeting where these things were designed); I guess they're just lazy about official announcements. 14:04:25 (A super²visor is a supervisor's supervisor, of course.) 14:04:50 s/designed/decided/; thinko. 14:19:20 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 14:20:33 -!- Jaykul has left (?). 16:14:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:23:00 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 16:32:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:34:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:38:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:02:39 -!- augur has joined. 17:25:25 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:28:49 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 17:33:30 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 17:40:04 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 17:41:19 [125244.889404] ACPI Warning (nseval-0177): Excess arguments - method [BEEP] needs 1, found 2 [20080926] <-- huh? 17:42:14 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:42:41 what 17:44:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:50:43 Oranjer1, my reaction exactly 17:51:00 well, do you know what it says? 17:51:24 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 17:52:06 Oranjer, I read it, if that is what you mean 17:52:09 and now I found it 17:52:11 http://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-acpi-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg01770.html 17:52:14 seems relevant 17:52:40 indeed 17:53:33 however my thinkpad is not listed in that quirk table 17:53:44 tell them? 17:54:11 -!- lament has left (?). 17:54:12 should. Day after tomorrow though. Bit busy currently. Large test tomorrow at university 17:54:15 bbl 18:15:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:27:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 18:28:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:01:33 Yay, BasiliskII; http://zem.fi/~fis/mac.png 19:03:40 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit ("Leaving"). 19:05:48 what fizzie 19:07:10 fizzie, ppc? 19:07:37 guess not 19:07:46 AnMaster: No, BasiliskII does 68k only. 19:07:47 ppc? what? 19:07:49 fizzie, what is that Unix thing? network share? 19:07:59 fizzie, or some sort of "guest additions"? 19:08:00 XD 19:08:48 AnMaster: It's a BasiliskII-internal "show this Unix path as a volume" thing; I'm not quite sure how it's done on the MacOS side; it needs File System Manager V1.2 installed, though. 19:09:16 interesting 19:09:37 fizzie, what rom 19:09:37 ? 19:10:20 AnMaster: Uh... no comment, due to not exactly owning a 68k-suitable Mac right now. 19:10:35 Oranjer, you could google. You ask so many questions that we just end up ignoring them as it is 19:10:46 oh 19:10:47 fizzie, I want it too 19:10:53 :P 19:11:05 fizzie, I only have a "newworld" mac 19:11:12 Well, it was from http://files.oldos.org/files/macdl/quadra650.rom 19:12:06 and system 7.5.3? 19:12:16 I think I may have a cd with that for PPC around 19:12:29 7.5.something I mean 19:12:53 7.5.3 from Apple's site. 19:13:07 oh they made it public? 19:13:08 heh 19:13:13 http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/ 19:13:17 ah 19:13:53 Oh, and http://w1.312.comhem.se/~u31227643/macboot.img.gz for a boot floppy image. 19:14:13 fizzie, smi.bin 19:14:16 how hm 19:15:00 That macboot.img is the System 7.5 "Network Access Disk"; it's just that Apple's disk image of it is StuffIt'd with a reasonably new version, something macunpack on Linux doesn't read. Of course if you have a system that can run real StuffIt, that's not a problem. 19:15:08 fizzie, interesting when removing the file from that last url 19:15:13 I'm not 100% I would trust it 19:15:20 -!- adam_d has joined. 19:15:44 fizzie, depends. How new? I have one with OS 9... 19:15:53 would be a PITA however 19:15:58 I don't know how new, but that sounds new enough. 19:16:41 And .smi.bin is a very good format; you can use the hfsutils tools to get the MacBinary file into a HFS disk image, then attach that into whatever emulator you use for running MacOS, and there the .smi files are automagically mountable. (Of course you need something to boot from, like that network access disk image.) 19:20:31 no md5sums file 19:20:43 too much to expect I guess 19:20:49 fizzie, no resource fork issues? 19:21:15 Well, not during the installation. Some problems with the provided Glider 4 zip, though. 19:21:22 oh hah 19:21:29 fizzie, what about glider pro? 19:21:32 does it work on that 19:21:35 or does it need ppc? 19:21:37 AnMaster: Too new. :p 19:21:53 As in, "too new, not interested". 19:21:56 fizzie, damn. So basically useless. tried that shoehorn? 19:22:04 oh 19:22:05 ok 19:22:14 err 19:22:14 I assume it might be PPC-only, too, since it runs on OS X and OS 9 only. 19:22:23 not shoehorn 19:22:23 I mean 19:22:24 sheepshaver 19:22:34 fizzie, there are those "fat binaries" 19:22:40 with both PPC and 68k 19:22:50 somewhat like the universal binaries these days 19:23:11 Yes, I guess. I don't have OS 9, anyway. 19:23:45 Err, except maybe as the "Classic" thing on the PPC OS X iBook. 19:24:16 But, well, I could then just run it under OS X on the iBook, it's a supported system and all. Where's the fun in that? 19:25:33 fizzie, that would bring down fungot wouldn't it? 19:25:37 ARGH WHERE IS fungot?! 19:25:50 The web server laptop is still not the iBook. 19:25:59 It's that Pentium M I pasted flags from the other day. 19:26:11 And I guess fungot died in that Freenode messup too. 19:26:52 RAW >>> ERROR :Closing Link: momus.zem.fi (Nick collision from syn.) <<< 19:26:55 fizzie, oh? does it quit or reconnect in that case? 19:27:07 No, it dies if the SOCK 'R' operation fails. 19:27:22 fizzie, so why didn't your service supervisor restart it? 19:27:30 daemontools or such 19:27:32 or maybe inittab 19:27:36 Because I don't run it under one? 19:27:42 fizzie, why not :P 19:27:57 -!- fungot has joined. 19:27:58 it sounds like the obvious thing 19:28:25 fizzie, if it is on ubuntu you could write an upstart script for it 19:29:32 It's a relatively messy Debian virtual-machine thing, and I'm not interested enough to play with it that much; there's a lot to fix, the ignore settings still aren't persisted, for one thing. 19:30:44 * AnMaster tests cfunge under netbsd 19:30:47 configuring atm 19:31:53 Anyway, the Glider 4 zip seems to have the resource forks saved in that OS X thing, with a __MACOSX folder containing ._foo files for each foo file. The "macstream" utility I have can do some sort of AppleShare → MacBinary conversion (then I could stuff the MacBinary data into the HFS disk with hfsutils), and as far as I know that's sort-of the AppleShare format, but it just says "Short file X" for the zero-length data files X, where all the real meat is in 19:31:53 the ._X resource fork. 19:32:41 and that should prove that cfunge is portable. Because if it runs on netbsd it implies that it is likely it will run on all platforms netbsd supports (I know it works on sparc already and ppc, so endian issues would be unlikely). And if it runs on all platforms that netbsd supports it runs on everything 19:32:47 proof by reduction I believe? 19:32:54 ;) 19:33:28 -!- serp has joined. 19:33:43 what is this channel? 19:33:55 a language about esoteric programming languages 19:34:04 o i c 19:34:06 (hm why isn't that in topic any more) 19:34:19 serp, you were going here for the other sort? 19:34:36 happens every few month ;) 19:34:51 no I like esoteric languages 19:34:53 what is your favorite? 19:35:02 befunge and intercal. 19:35:22 I guess I could use genisoimage (mkisofs) to make a HFS CD image, I think that tool had a really crazy list of supported formats. That feels a bit silly though. 19:35:22 I like befunge 19:35:26 haven't heard about intercal 19:35:47 intercal would the the archetypical one. Since it was basically the first one 19:35:50 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:36:08 (not that it is on topic all the time.) 19:36:13 (the channel I mean) 19:36:24 why not? 19:36:37 we are all easily distracted perhaps? 19:36:42 I see 19:36:45 yay, I got cfunge to compile under netbsd 19:36:51 I like esoteric languages 19:37:47 omg it's the serp 19:38:01 olsner, you know him? 19:38:10 oh .se. Hej 19:38:26 Hej! 19:38:26 serp: som du ser finns det andra svenskar här också :D 19:38:35 aha 19:38:56 och en norrman (oerjan) som dyker upp ibland 19:41:21 är alla svenskar? 19:41:36 AnMaster: Yay, http://zem.fi/~fis/glider.png 19:41:41 nee, typ bara vi och AnMaster 19:41:44 aha 19:41:46 how strange. I had to use "ftp http://..." to download over http 19:41:47 on this 19:41:55 that is just so completely stupid 19:42:05 olsner, Firefly too 19:42:25 (also I keep to English in order to ensure others can read it) 19:42:38 I have a feeling OS X didn't include wget by default, but had a FTP client that could speak HTTP; at least somewhere I've done ftp http://... too. 19:42:48 fizzie, thought it was BW? 19:42:59 fizzie, netbsd? 19:43:09 I don't think it was that, I haven't used NetBSD in ages. 19:43:26 AnMaster: And there's a 16-color mode too. (It asked on startup whether I want to switch to 2-color or 16-color mode.) 19:43:49 btw cfunge turns out to work better on netbsd than on openbsd 19:43:50 "genisoimage -o ../glider_4.iso -hfs --osx-double ." got me a .iso image that had the correct resource forks. 19:44:10 fizzie, heh 19:47:29 olsner, where do you know serp from btw? 19:48:14 -!- ampleyfly has joined. 19:48:22 AnMaster: from IRC 19:48:27 Deewiant, seems cfunge passes mycology on netbsd too. Apart from some minor differences for FPSP/FPDP 19:48:31 olsner, freenode? 19:48:38 from the same place as ampleyfly here, actually 19:48:41 UNDEF: E says asin(2) is 0.000000 (actually complex: NaN) 19:48:47 #c++.se on quakenet 19:48:49 I suspect bug in netbsd asin here 19:48:55 because I remember openbsd used to have the same bug 19:49:08 Now if I'd just suck less in that game, heh. 19:49:10 ampleyfly and me made a esoteric language for a course. unfortunately the report is in Swedish. some examples are on the last page: http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~jakfr986/b4ch.pdf 19:50:06 it's similair to befunge in 4 dimensions 19:50:23 * AnMaster looks 19:50:31 serp, there is already n-dimensional befunge 19:50:35 I know :) 19:50:39 well. more than 3D is uncommon but... 19:50:47 serp, so what befunge version did you use? 98? 19:51:01 it's not a befunge... we just borrowed some ideas frm there 19:51:07 serp, at university? Huh how did you get that past 19:51:27 it was for an intro course in lisp 19:51:33 vilken utbildning? 19:51:46 datateknik på LiTH 19:51:50 ah. 19:52:13 Dataingengör? Eller någon annan variant? 19:52:21 civilingenjör 19:52:23 ah 19:53:28 eget web utrymme huh 19:53:44 * AnMaster undrar om man kan få det vid örebro universitet också 19:54:01 Not providing a public_html-alike directory sounds pretty strange. 19:54:23 fizzie, well maybe they do. But since it is windows mostly where the hell would you look 19:54:40 c:\wwwroot! 19:54:57 olsner, mmm unlikely :P 19:55:13 Hrm, well, that's another thing. For the record, our place gives students a "60 MB soft-quota, 100 MB hard-quota" public_html directory at users.tkk.fi or some-such. 19:55:42 (Hm, and I have 52M in use. That's curious.) 19:56:37 PNG format screenshots from the Eurovision Song Contest and everything else that's very study-related. 19:57:20 33M of PNG files containing different graphized versions of fungot, also. :p 19:57:20 fizzie: oh well. guess that saved me. 19:57:40 fungot: Er, were you in some sort of danger, then? 19:57:41 fizzie: " oh wow this is" 19:58:03 ^style 19:58:03 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 19:58:07 mh 19:58:27 It resets to the irc style whenever it gets rebooted. 19:58:30 true 19:58:51 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:07 fizzie, png? try advpng and optipng 19:59:12 should reduce large ones 19:59:18 ^source 19:59:18 http://git.zem.fi/fungot 19:59:27 fizzie, but that is not the uni one is it? 19:59:48 No, that's my own place. 20:00:57 -!- cal153 has joined. 20:01:04 http://users.tkk.fi/~htkallas/euroviisukoodi1.png is at the university web-space. 20:01:33 They showed that bit during the Eurovision contest between-songs-nonsense-videos one year. 20:01:52 (It makes very little sense.) 20:02:08 (Also ...2.png and 3.png.) 20:03:02 fizzie, heh? 20:03:05 fizzie, seriously? 20:03:28 Yes. The "|YLE|TV2" in the corner is the logo of the local broadcast company. 20:03:55 I assume someone was just told to "write some sort of code-like stuff here". 20:03:57 fizzie, hm did it look like it was a screenshot or a photo of a screen 20:04:21 fizzie, you mean it isn't something like a bluescreen on a public display? 20:05:02 which could be explained by all those errors 20:05:05 I don't remember the surroundings; I think they showed a guy at a keyboard, then focused on the monitor showing that bit. 20:05:19 whatever it is, it isn't java 20:05:43 and that is quite a lot of whitespace 20:10:48 I like how they chose to write it in Eclipse, which highlights it all as erroneous 20:14:33 That is perfectly valid (if useless) Plof. 20:15:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:15:38 pikhq, heh? 20:15:49 pikhq, it has if go to () ? 20:15:57 (third screenshot iirc) 20:22:54 Social networking! http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock (Link courtesy of ineiros.) 20:24:30 fizzie, what version of that emulator did you use? 20:24:46 Whatever was packaged in Debian. Let's see. 20:25:04 0.9.20070407-4 according to the package. 20:25:12 hm 20:25:21 "Basilisk II V1.0 by Christian Bauer et al." according to the program itself. 20:25:28 I'm unable to find anything newer than 2005 20:25:51 err 20:25:55 newer than 2006 I meant 20:26:34 basilisk2 (0.9.20070407-1) unstable; urgency=low 20:26:34 * New upstream CVS snapshot. 20:26:34 + Bugfixes and improvements for 64bit host archs. 20:26:41 That's what it's built from. 20:26:41 hm ok 20:32:01 fizzie, what mac model id did you select in basilisk? 20:32:20 fizzie, and CPU type? 20:32:39 "Quadra 900 (MacOS 8.x)" and 68040, since those were mentioned in a howto; seemed to work. 20:32:41 AnMaster: If is a function, and go and to could be perfectly valid expressions in context. 20:33:01 Still, the third one is not valid Plof. 20:33:02 If you compiled the JIT stuff in, 68040 and enabling JIT might be a good idea too. I didn't bother; it's fast enough anyway. 20:33:12 (not without some crazy PlofBNF hacks, that is) 20:34:00 I'd have tried sheepshaver too, but no-one seems to have bothered to add that to the Debian archives, and I really don't have *any* use for it, so I can't see why to compile it from sources. 20:34:00 fizzie, hm 20:34:24 pikhq, BNF hacks? basically extending the compiler? 20:34:35 so that is cheating then 20:34:35 AnMaster: ... Yes. 20:34:46 pikhq, or can you someone define it in the code? 20:34:47 XD 20:34:50 I mean 20:34:51 Though to be fair, Plof is *designed to do that*. 20:34:58 do you need to recompile the compiler for it? 20:35:04 No. 20:35:15 ouch 20:35:23 fizzie, what about the RAM size? 20:35:37 * AnMaster guesses 512 could be too much 20:35:40 AnMaster: 64 megs should be enough for everyone. (I think that was visible in my screenshot too.) 20:35:48 The grammer of Plof is defined inside of a Plof file. 20:36:12 (well, using a bootstrap grammer defined in bytecode) 20:37:34 fizzie link to the tutorial? 20:37:58 AnMaster: If I can find the browser tab. 20:38:05 fizzie, history? 20:38:11 anyway I'm rather confused now 20:40:02 AnMaster: http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/68kEmulator -- but it's pretty windows-oriented and I think at some parts also contradictory. I just adapted a bit. (Substituted that existing macboot.img for the whole stuffit+floppy-writing nonsense, and hfsutils command-line tools for HFVExplorer.) 20:40:25 fizzie, where do I put in the floppy image to use 20:40:45 fizzie, this system lacks a real floppy drive 20:40:45 ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs "floppy /path/to/image" 20:40:55 Same here. 20:41:17 The configuration dialogs for the X version are a bit limited. 20:41:42 very much 20:41:48 Alternatively run it with "BasiliskII --floppy /path/to" for a one-time use. 20:41:50 fizzie, and cd? 20:42:00 "cdrom", but do you need that for something? 20:42:10 hm 20:42:11 I needed it for the Glider 4 image only. :p 20:42:40 fizzie, what about the shared with unix thingy? 20:42:59 That's what the config dialog calls "Unix Root" in the Volumes tab. 20:43:10 "extfs" in the config file. 20:43:25 hm 20:43:33 why doesn't that show up from the floppy 20:43:34 or, 20:43:40 how do I get the OS image there 20:43:43 for system 7 20:43:51 The floppy doesn't have that FSM 1.2 thing for the shared-drive. 20:43:58 You need to copy the .smi and .part files to your HD image. 20:44:19 fizzie, formatting it first with HFS+? 20:44:22 or plain HFS? 20:44:42 Plain HFS, if you're running System 7. But you can format it by booting from the floppy. 20:44:50 It'll automagically suggest formatting the disk. 20:44:58 I guess hfsutils has a format tool too, though. 20:45:18 (You can create an image file with dd, or in the BasiliskII configuration dialog.) 20:45:23 fizzie, removing the binhex thingy? 20:45:34 fizzie, figured out how to create the HD no issue 20:46:01 You get rid of the MacBinary encoding (it's .bin, not .hqx) when copying files from Unix to the HFS image with hfsutils. 20:46:33 Something like hmount + hmkdir inst + hcopy -m .../*.bin :inst + humount. 20:46:35 fizzie, hcopy? 20:46:54 hm 20:47:01 oh that needs root? 20:47:04 or what 20:47:08 It shouldn't. 20:47:25 where does it store the state 20:47:29 It's a bit mtools-like (or CVS "login" like) in that it maintains a "current volume and directory" in ~/.hcwd. 20:48:02 Actually I'm not sure whether mtools does that, maybe not. 20:48:04 hcopy: "System_7.5.3_19of19.part.bin": not a directory 20:48:05 eh 20:48:13 You need the destination path too. 20:48:13 "hcopy -m .../*.bin" seems wrong 20:48:16 oh 20:48:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:48:20 : or :inst or something. 20:48:33 (":" for current-directory, ":inst" if you hmkdir'd a place for the files.) 20:48:38 hm 20:49:08 fizzie, and then just the installers from Mac HD? 20:49:22 the tutorial talks about copying the system dir 20:49:24 is that needed 20:49:37 I don't think so; I think the installer will create one. 20:49:40 But you can if you want. 20:50:11 I did, but really, I don't think it matters much. 20:51:29 In both cases you should be able to just run the .smi file on the HD, and then the "Install System software" app from the virtual CD it mounts on the desktop. 20:52:33 I also did a Custom Install with some pseudo-sensible software selections, even though the tutorial warns that the 7.5.5 update won't work with it; I'm not that interested in the update anyway. 20:53:13 fizzie, yay finally I found a use for 4 GB RAM. ATM FreeBSD, NetBSD VMs are running. And this Basilisk II 20:53:28 both the *BSD VMs are heavily loaded 20:53:31 wow that was a quick install 20:53:49 System 7.5.3 shutdown and startup are horribly quick too. 20:54:06 fizzie, on modern hardware yes 20:54:24 Also haven't tried networking yet. It needs a silly custom kernel module for "share a physical Ethernet device" networking, but ethertap virtual-networking might work without that too. 20:54:56 I'm a bit suspicious to whether that works any more, if they haven't updated it since 2007. 20:55:07 fizzie, oh now I get a "unimplemented trap" error 20:55:08 heh 20:56:42 Might be some extension, perhaps; the tutorial notes that "A/Rose under Networking and Extensions" is incompatible with Basilisk. 20:57:36 fizzie, 1024x600 . I wonder what sort of wide screen that is 20:57:57 fizzie, indeed. Missed that 20:58:04 removing the extension solved it 20:58:05 I've been running it with the classic 512x384 screen. 20:58:42 fizzie, too small on a high dpi screen 20:58:46 too small anyway 20:58:47 but meh 20:59:53 Could maybe play around with the networking, but there aren't *that* many interesting 68k-mac Interwebby programs. iCab 2.9.9, IE 3.something, Netscape 3 as far as browsers go. 21:00:38 ooh that puzzle 21:00:44 fizzie, does this os have apple script? 21:00:56 seems not 21:01:02 oh wait 21:01:03 it does 21:01:04 yay 21:01:10 There were some AppleScript-related things in the installer, yes. 21:01:32 yeah 21:01:49 fizzie, I wonder if I could get norton speeddisk the defragment thing to run on this 21:01:51 oh wait no 21:01:53 it was PPC 21:02:07 fizzie, that iso of the game you mentioned. Where? 21:02:20 it seemed too messy. surely you could share? 21:02:32 since it was released without charge now 21:03:20 http://zem.fi/~fis/glider_4.iso possibly. I guess you could run BasiliskII as "BasiliskII --cdrom /path/to/glider_4.iso" for a one-time copy-to-HD use. 21:04:02 fizzie, that is one SMALL iso 21:04:20 but took 20 seconds to download 21:04:26 96 KB/s 21:04:31 your connection sucks? 21:04:39 Outgoing speed, sure. 21:04:49 That's what consumer ADSL is like, you know. 21:04:52 fizzie, btw those --floppy and --cdrom seems to be saved 21:05:04 Right, I wondered about that. 21:06:13 fizzie, what keys to rebuild desktop sort of thing? 21:06:20 It's 1 Mbps outwards; theoretically that should get something like 122 kB/s at most. 21:07:13 Don't know about that. 21:08:06 I don't even quite know how it maps command/option to ctrl/alt. (Probably just like that.) 21:08:55 "On PC-style keyboards, "Alt" is the Mac "Command" key, while the "Windows" key is the Mac "Option" key.". Well, that's what the README says. It might not work out like that. 21:09:12 fizzie, hm 21:09:30 fizzie, what was it on macs? 21:09:32 I forgot 21:09:39 Alt-Command? 21:10:03 Command-option during booting or something. 21:10:15 There might've been some messing-around with extensions though. 21:10:21 The interwebs probably know more than me. 21:31:05 -!- scorchsaber has joined. 21:31:53 -!- scorchsaber has left (?). 21:39:56 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:44:10 fizzie, did you manage to get that system 7.5.5 update to work? 21:44:19 Didn't try. 21:44:29 fizzie, makes disk image unbootable for me 21:44:33 Not needed for Glider 4. :p 21:44:45 Did you do the Easy Install thing? 21:45:02 fizzie, custom install 21:55:51 Well, then. 21:56:05 The tutorial does say that only Easy Install works with the 7.5.5 update. 21:58:27 ah 21:58:30 missed that 22:12:43 night 23:14:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:31:25 -!- madbrain has joined. 23:55:37 -!- coppro has joined. 23:57:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").