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00:03:53 <Gregor> Hypothetically it isn't, really it is.
00:04:13 <pikhq> I'm finding it absurdly difficult to find a freaking source tarball.
00:04:39 <fax> funbot style!
00:04:55 <pikhq> fax: But, they offer source .debs.
00:04:56 <Gregor> http://www.plash.beasts.org/packages/plash_1.19.orig.tar.gz
00:05:06 <pikhq> Dankon.
00:05:59 <Gregor> It's still pretty Debian-specific though.
00:06:21 <pikhq> I'm going to experiment for a bit.
00:06:30 <pikhq> And if it doesn't work, much violence will be performed.
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00:17:40 <pikhq> "checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc... gcc-4.1 -fno-stack-protector
00:17:41 <pikhq> "
00:17:53 <pikhq> From the attempt to build plash-glibc.
00:17:55 <pikhq> *facepalm*
00:20:32 <Gregor> Hyuk
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01:27:34 <AnMaster> night
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03:07:19 <madbr> hey
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06:38:41 <Warrigal> Gregor: you're still doing this clone-at-every-turn thing?
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06:45:53 <pikhq> Gregor: I think you'd be pleased to know that your elfloader thing (barely) works on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu.
06:46:19 <pikhq> (though only on staticly linked binaries -- it throws up on trying to load /lib/ldlinux.so)
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08:03:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does the elfloader thing do?
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11:11:21 <ais523> aargh
11:11:26 <ais523> they blacklisted the PC speaker kernel module in 9.10
11:11:29 <ais523> to avoid the beep-on-shutdown bug
11:11:37 <ais523> that is really not the right way to fix a bug...
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13:16:16 <AnMaster> ais523, agreed
13:16:40 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact, I would say that the new behaviour is a bug
13:16:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwcx
13:16:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwc*
13:17:37 <oerjan> iwc: the grammaring
13:20:59 <AnMaster> indeed
13:21:09 * AnMaster is irritated that sheepshaver requires sysctl -w vm.mmap_min_addr=0
13:21:10 <AnMaster> to run
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20:46:02 <AnMaster> http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/technotes/tb/tb_10.html
20:46:06 <AnMaster> I think the title is wrong there
20:46:11 <AnMaster> agree ais523 ?
20:46:21 <AnMaster> says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library"
20:46:22 <AnMaster> hardly
20:46:31 <ais523> I don't really get what you're on about
20:46:34 <AnMaster> "[Mar 01 1988]"
20:46:42 <AnMaster> ais523, look at the date of that technical note
20:46:51 <AnMaster> then look at the header thingy for that secion
20:46:53 <AnMaster> section*
20:46:57 <AnMaster> which says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library"
20:47:05 <AnMaster> except, this is from before Mac OS X was invented!
20:47:09 <ais523> for all I know that API still exists in OSX
20:47:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think that would apply here. XD
20:50:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also what about this one "Macintosh Plus Pinouts"
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21:37:46 <AnMaster> ais523, oh god, I just ended up being randomly highlighted by some noob so noobish I never seen anything as bad
21:38:42 <AnMaster> <hadge_> what is googl
21:38:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> hadge_, web search engine. You know where you search in the browser. Maybe you use some other search engine *shrug*
21:38:42 <AnMaster> <hadge_> I have something called yahoo.com
21:38:56 <AnMaster> sigh, why did I even answer the highlight
21:39:23 <AnMaster> also it gets worse
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21:41:03 <AnMaster> <hadge_> Anyone know how to restart a machine
21:41:05 <AnMaster> sigh
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21:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, have you seen ehird recently at all?
21:52:38 <ais523> no
21:52:58 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea if something happened to his net connection or such?
21:53:06 <ais523> no, why would I?
21:53:19 <AnMaster> meh. UK is small (area-wise)
21:53:20 <AnMaster> ;P
21:53:30 <AnMaster> (well, at least compared to Sweden)
21:53:41 <AnMaster> (and yes I invented that justification afterwards)
21:56:46 <AnMaster> ais523, wikipedia question:
21:56:49 <AnMaster> "According to Archive.org since at least February 11, 2008 the URL address http://www.apple.com/hypercard no longer points to Apple's site but redirects to this Wikipedia article."
21:57:02 <AnMaster> why the "according to archive.org" but
21:57:03 <AnMaster> bit*
21:57:10 <AnMaster> is there some policy reason for it?
21:57:11 <ais523> for historical info, presumably
21:57:15 <ais523> and yes, it's a citation
21:57:21 <AnMaster> ais523, it still does redirect like that
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21:57:23 <AnMaster> I checked
21:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, but why :P
21:57:43 <AnMaster> I mean, this seems like it wouldn't need a citation.
21:57:47 <AnMaster> or maybe *shrug*
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22:27:59 <fizzie> No original research!
22:30:32 * AnMaster plays around with hypercard
22:31:03 <fax> hypercard is cool
22:31:10 <AnMaster> yeah. kind of
22:32:30 <oklopol> i don't understand what the lecturer was talking about, turing machines are totally fun to program and run manually
22:32:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, heh? what did he say?
22:32:54 * oklopol just accepted a^(2^2)
22:33:01 <fizzie> oklopol: You are probably in the minority, though.
22:33:06 <oklopol> well he said the opposite
22:33:24 <fizzie> Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite.
22:33:31 <fizzie> Ours did, too.
22:33:58 <oklopol> this is not a basics course, although we are doing basics of tm's atm
22:33:59 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. ← why?
22:34:26 <fizzie> It's because of the Conspiracy.
22:34:49 <fizzie> See, they've tried to infect Wikipedia too: "Turing machines *are not intended as a practical computing technology*, but rather as a thought experiment representing a computing machine." -- emphasis mine.
22:34:59 <AnMaster> :/
22:36:51 <oklopol> i get two entirely different, but equally great pleasures, from 1. fitting tons of state interaction info in my head 2. running the machine without thinking, and watching it slowly do its magic
22:37:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, heh
22:38:18 <fizzie> String rewriting languages are also nice to watch.
22:38:19 <AnMaster> what is the proof for turing machines having the properties they do?
22:38:37 <AnMaster> I mean, you can't reduce it to another turing complete language
22:38:39 <oklopol> i mean as long as the program is simple enough i can do it without any sort of compilation
22:38:44 <AnMaster> (that kind of defeats the point)
22:38:57 <oklopol> once you do compilation, you might just as well use a better language
22:38:59 <oklopol> err
22:39:10 <oklopol> AnMaster: what do you mean?
22:39:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, not sure XD
22:39:27 <oklopol> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CLOSURE PROPERTIES
22:39:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, unkown. I'm too sleepy
22:39:42 <fizzie> oklopol: IS YOUR SHIFT KEY STUCK?
22:40:01 <oklopol> the families of R and RE languages are closed under pretty much everything
22:40:14 <oklopol> fizzie: no, some things just need to be said in uppercase
22:41:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean. How do you prove UTMs are TC. Basically.
22:41:21 <oklopol> you don't
22:41:25 <AnMaster> well apart from that being the definition of TC
22:41:36 <AnMaster> so lets rephrase that
22:41:54 <oklopol> what you do is you define turing machines and define computation as what they do.
22:42:13 <oklopol> then the empty proof proves they are TC
22:42:18 <oklopol> :)
22:42:40 <fax> empty proof heh
22:43:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about the stuff about that being the best possible class. Well apart from those oracle machines (which no one explains how they would be implemented)
22:43:23 <AnMaster> fax, yeah made me think of "empty set"
22:43:44 <fax> well it's sort of relevant http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/
22:43:58 <fax> I just really liked that article
22:44:13 <fax> since he mentions turning machine :/
22:44:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not the best possible class, RE is a proper subset of 2^({0,1}*)
22:44:31 <oklopol> that is, there are languages that need a stronger machine
22:44:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, best possible plausible class? Or what is the point of it
22:45:08 <oklopol> define plausible
22:45:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know
22:45:16 <fizzie> But there's a whole pile of other models of computation, for which you can prove that a Turing machine can do the same things. The proofs of course depend on what you're comparing to.
22:45:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: neither does anyone else
22:45:28 <fax> AnMaster a lot of people say "turing machine/lambda calculus/whatever can compute anything you want it to"
22:45:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know *what* it is I don't know
22:45:40 <fax> it's kinda vauge and meaningless as far as I could tell
22:46:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: turing machines have no mathematical property that makes them the best possible plausible class.
22:46:39 <oklopol> they just correspond nicely to our intuition
22:46:44 <oklopol> of what computation si
22:46:45 <oklopol> *is
22:47:07 <AnMaster> hm
22:47:27 <oklopol> i suggest you just believe me :P
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22:47:39 <oklopol> anyway look up church turing thesis
22:48:39 <oklopol> err well RE obviously isn't closed under complementation
22:48:48 <oklopol> but anyway
22:49:00 <oklopol> R is very flexible
22:50:00 <AnMaster> night
22:50:04 <oklopol> night
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23:06:30 <Warrigal> AnMaster: there is no theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class in any way; the Church-Turing statement is the unproven statement that it's the best computational class we can build.
23:07:02 <Warrigal> Or, alternatively, the best computational class the brain can simulate.
23:10:58 <Warrigal> ...Actually, I'm sure there is a theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class where if the machine outputs something, there is a proof that it does.
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23:18:04 <fax> I thought Church-Turing was that lambda and turning machine are equivalent
23:18:39 <fax> looks like I am wrong
23:18:56 <fax> it says on the wiki "Informally the Church–Turing thesis states that if an algorithm (a procedure that terminates) exists then there is an equivalent Turing machine, recursively-definable function, or applicable λ-function, for that algorithm. Today the thesis has near-universal acceptance."
23:19:12 <fax> but that seems odd because it use the word "exists" in a non-mathematical context
23:19:27 <fax> and also it's not clear where this places oracles
23:19:27 <Warrigal> Indeed, it does.
23:19:40 <Warrigal> It implies that oracles do not "exist".
23:19:43 <fax> "Every effectively calculable function is a computable function"
23:19:48 <fax> hehe
23:20:31 <Warrigal> It would be quite nice if the Church-Turing thesis were that lambda calculus and Turing machines are equivalent.
23:21:25 <Warrigal> But it isn't, so we'll have to stick with our Curry-Howard isomorphism.
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23:55:07 <Slereah> Well, Turing machines can't exist, but close enough I guess
23:55:22 <Slereah> While oracles are like double impossible
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←2009-11-04 2009-11-05 2009-11-06→ ↑2009 ↑all