00:00:06 and yeah those are all analogue inputs 00:00:09 ∀x(Human(x) → Existance(x) → 0) <<< so what exactly is the natural topology of implications? i'm having a hard time interpreting this 00:00:10 ehird, oh? 00:00:18 AnMaster: yes 00:00:28 oklopol, eh? Are you saying precedence order? 00:00:54 oklopol, as I said the second one is NOT an implication, but a limit 00:01:21 oklopol, so: 00:01:44 ∀x(Human(x) →[implies] (Existance(x) →[limit] 0)) 00:01:49 oklopol, clearer? 00:03:12 incidentally, did you know that ed is fun and advanced?! 00:03:16 $ ed 00:03:16 r !ls 00:03:17 390 00:03:17 ,s/^/less / 00:03:17 w !sh 00:03:18 i know the second one is a limit 00:03:21 390 being output from ed 00:03:26 loads the result of `ls` into the buffer 00:03:27 i just don't know what limits mean for implications 00:03:32 so i'm asking what their natural topology is 00:03:34 ehird, isn't ed TC iirc? 00:03:35 replaces start of line with "less " in all lines 00:03:38 unless I misremember 00:03:39 and writes it to a shell 00:03:44 cool, eh? 00:03:48 bet you didn't know it could do that 00:03:55 i just don't know what limits mean for implications <-- nothing. 00:04:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:04:27 killjoy 00:04:31 oklopol, in this case however "being human implies your "existence level" goes towards 0" 00:05:11 oh should've read your "clearer" thingie, since i indeed misinterpreted what's limit is being taken 00:05:21 (well whose) 00:05:51 oi 00:05:55 admire how cool ed actually is! 00:06:06 incidentally the same things work in vi by putting : in front. 00:06:13 oklopol, fair enough. It wasn't exactly standard notation (to put it mildly) 00:06:21 ehird, is it TC or not? 00:06:26 who gives a shit 00:06:26 as I said 00:06:27 ehird: not incidentally 00:06:28 I think it is 00:06:32 bsmntbombdood: well, yeah 00:06:33 but I'm not certain 00:06:37 ex is a subset of ed after all 00:17:04 Gregor: baizng 00:17:06 *bazing 00:22:35 * Sgeo loves how worlds in AW can set what should only be settable by the user 00:23:53 Forcing me to, say, have a visibility of 100m is obnoxious for those on poorer graphics cards 00:24:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:24:46 * ehird toys with the idea of registering in Active Worlds, invading everywhere and setting up scripts that ruins everything 00:24:51 Idea rejection ticket 00:24:53 Sgeo, s/loves/hates/ then? 00:24:55 Reason: Too tired 00:24:59 Resolved: WONTFIX 00:25:07 ehird, nah 00:25:13 AnMaster, it's called sarcasm 00:25:14 Resolved: LATER 00:25:14 2009-11-08T00:25Z 00:25:21 no, WONTFIX 00:25:22 Sgeo, ah. Too tired 00:25:25 we are execu-fucking tive 00:25:28 and we make decisions now 00:25:31 and move onto other decisions 00:25:34 and make the SHIT out of them 00:25:37 EXECU-FUCKING TIVE 00:25:38 ah 00:25:43 ehird, um, the worse you can do is make something to destroy all tourist property in, say, AWTeen 00:25:43 fucking corporate and all that shit. 00:25:44 night 00:25:54 Sgeo: i'm sure i could figure out something 00:25:56 AnMaster: observant it is indeed night 00:26:01 i notice you omitted the arrow 00:26:13 Or maybe spam goatse in public areas 00:26:17 ehird, oops yeah I forgot it 00:26:21 speaking of fucking corporate decisions and shit 00:26:23 http://buttersafe.com/2008/08/21/corporate-finance/ 00:26:23 night ↓ is what I meant 00:26:26 Although that's more of an AWNewbie problem 00:26:27 night → 00:26:35 No one goes to AWNewbie anymore, so 00:26:51 AW...booby 00:27:51 There are some X rated worlds in AW >.> 00:29:03 i cannot think of a single meaning of >.> there that isn't creepy or sad. 00:29:40 Arguably, the fact that I know that there are X rated worlds is what I thought was suspicious 00:29:56 (They're not accessible without setting an option to allow one to see them) 00:30:10 are you trying to make things worse 00:30:20 I haven't actually been to one 00:31:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:54:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:06:52 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:07:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:14:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:15:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:15:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:16:40 Come on people. 01:16:56 Nobody's pwned codu through Hackiki yet. 01:16:59 Get with the program. 01:29:29 / 01:29:33 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 01:30:12 Come on augur, pwn codu! 01:30:19 whats codu 01:30:27 http://codu.org/ 01:30:32 Or rather, the box that runs that. 01:30:48 and you're challenging people to hack it? 01:30:57 http://hackiki.codu.org/ 01:31:04 I'm just surprised that I could put that up and NOT see somebody hack it. 01:31:09 i will do it Gregor if you will entertain my talk! 01:31:30 How does one entertain someone's talk ... 01:31:38 gregor, i dont get it 01:31:42 what are we supposed to do 01:32:04 /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' 01:32:07 augur: It's a wiki that runs nearly-arbitrary code. Figure out how to escape its security restrictions and kill codu people! 01:32:11 hi i broked it 01:32:34 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/dev': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/etc': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/hackiki': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib64': Permission denied /bin/rm: cannot remove `/tmp': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/usr': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cann 01:32:35 remove `/var': Function not implemented 01:32:35 am sad 01:32:37 can i suggest it to adrian lamo? 01:32:48 or would that be too cruel to do to the codu server? 01:32:58 ooh, look at augur, it's time for his special show 01:33:02 That hack is boring. 01:33:05 Look At Me I Am Totally In Bed With A Leet Haxor 01:33:07 Because it's easily reverted. 01:33:12 Gregor: shush 01:33:13 im not in bed with adrian lamo. :| 01:33:15 hes like 01:33:17 in sacramento 01:33:20 and im not 01:33:49 That is a solvable problem. 01:33:53 it is! 01:33:54 Gregor: entertaining someone's talk is answering their all important questions about death. 01:33:56 but that would require money 01:34:05 besides, he's got a boybitch 01:34:16 augur: YOU COULD BE THAT BOYBITCH 01:34:21 but im not. 01:34:22 :( 01:34:37 augur: Also a solvable problem! Just a more complicated one to solve. 01:34:49 /hackiki/bin/.wiki: line 3: tree: command not found 01:35:17 /bin/ls: bin: Function not implemented 01:35:17 /bin/ls: lib: Function not implemented 01:35:18 /bin/ls: templates: Function not implemented 01:35:19 ehird: Why don't you just use the arbitrary command runner. 01:35:24 So long as you're just running arbitrary commands ... 01:35:26 more carnage, 01:35:28 destruction, 01:35:29 sex 01:35:44 You're supposed to cause irreversible damage to codu, not trivially-reversible damage to the wiki. 01:35:47 ANYWAY ENTERTAIN MY BARK 01:35:54 which is tree bark 01:35:55 not dog bark 01:36:04 I don't want to answer questions about death :P 01:36:44 Is it reverted yet? 01:37:02 Sgeo: Yes. 01:37:13 cromyomlancy! 01:37:21 `ls 01:37:22 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.20700 01:38:00 Gregor: http://hackiki.codu.org/wiki/ 01:38:15 aw it doesn't work 01:38:55 ehird: Hack CODU, not end users ;)0 01:39:56 still doesens't work :( 01:40:12 Gregor: it irreversibly damages codu's readerbase 01:40:17 ANYWAY 01:40:23 fuck what was my q— oh yes 01:40:33 Gregor: i'm going to bother you some more about wearable computing MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA 01:40:37 i am so evil. evil and tired 01:40:41 (mainly tired) 01:41:18 OK, ask fast 'cuz I'll be gone at any minute :P 01:41:27 ;_; but i am le tired 01:41:39 i think i have a nap at this point, then fire ze missiles 01:41:52 Gregor: okay so since the myvu thing is only 640x480 01:41:56 and you have the dpi set up really high 01:42:01 don't you only fit like 01:42:02 3 words 01:42:03 on the screen 01:42:18 Quite a few more than there, but it's pretty few, yes. 01:42:28 hmm 01:42:28 Erm 01:42:31 More than THREE that is 01:42:35 :-D 01:42:44 how many lines of ~80col text would you guess 01:43:24 Well, I don't think it can display 80-column rows :P 01:43:29 xD 01:43:37 okay methinks i may need to find non-myvu options 01:43:44 Gregor: how well is it operating btw 01:43:53 Works great, I use it for PIM-ish stuff. 01:44:04 wow, an actual practical wearable computing application? 01:44:06 that's a first 01:44:17 anyone know when /me was invented? 01:44:21 i'm crazy enough to want to use my not-yet-existing one for programming 01:44:26 or was that an original feature of irc? 01:44:29 augur: with ctcp. maybe slightly earlier 01:44:34 it's CTCP ACTION 01:44:46 ok 01:44:48 Gregor: the main barrier to programming is the screen and the keyboard, right? 01:45:02 I'd say so. 01:45:24 screen I have no idea, keyboard I think my current plan is to use a FrogPad since it's tiny and has big keys and stuff 01:45:28 and is apparently usable for real typing 01:45:43 I'd prefer something with mechanical keyswitches because tactile response is quite important, but those are all heavy. 01:46:03 done anything with that tiny metal keyboard? PIM stuff doesn't really use it... 01:48:53 that lag is him typing on his tiny metal keyboard after leaving. 01:48:56 truly inspiring. 01:50:04 I SALUTE YOU SIRE 02:09:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:10:47 fun hack: 02:10:52 have your builder thingy do 02:10:56 ln -s $(which interp) . 02:11:02 then in your interpreted program just do 02:11:04 #!interp 02:11:20 only works in the same dir though... 02:12:30 -!- Asztal has joined. 02:35:30 help me pic a watch 02:35:30 http://www.kennethcole.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3579841 02:35:32 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=249949&CategoryID=29196 02:35:33 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=379381&CategoryID=31167 02:35:35 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=377836&CategoryID=29205 02:36:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:43:49 augur: i recommend a watch that costs $5. 02:44:26 better yet, a smartphone that also — gasp — doubles up as a watch 02:47:30 (ponder: does being indirectly told to reevaluate your priorities by someone who considers spending $250 on a keyboard sane mean that you're really off the deep end, or just have different priorities?) 02:47:36 (Just joking, it's the former) 02:55:49 * Sgeo would like to have a separate watch from his cell phone 02:55:59 Why? 02:56:10 Not an expensive one, just so I don't have to take out my cell phone constantly. Especially during tests or in the rain 02:56:39 Get a wrist computer, or better— a wearable computer! 02:56:53 I think Ludwig Mies van der Rohe would like a word with you, though. 02:56:59 Ornament is crime, after all. You could get arrested. 02:57:06 Wait, that was Adolf Loos. 02:57:12 Oh, who cares, they're all the same.[1] 02:57:19 [1] Apologies to all three architects out there 02:58:43 Why hasn't anyone invented a general better syntax for writing things since LaTeX. 02:58:52 (that is, the \cmd{arg} construction) 03:13:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:34:16 -!- ehird has quit. 04:12:52 I have an idea for a new language 04:13:05 it's called GPL and every valid program starts with the GPL license 04:13:20 (which is treated as a comment but without it the compiler will error) 04:50:53 heh 05:32:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:54:24 -!- immibis has joined. 06:19:54 log-reading ehird, i have an iphone. 06:21:00 fax: does your name happen to be richard stallman? 06:25:28 richard `rms` stallman 06:25:38 :o 06:27:20 The TTP Project 06:48:46 hi fax! 06:52:11 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:53:55 -!- coppro has joined. 06:54:50 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:55:29 -!- coppro has joined. 06:55:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:06:11 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:18:48 hey bsmntbombdood :) 07:18:58 i haven't seen you in forever 07:24:15 yeah 07:24:27 I run out of steam :P 07:28:45 you are in university right? 07:30:24 yes 07:30:37 you? 07:30:42 I don't think you are 07:30:46 no 07:37:57 too depressed for that sort of thing 07:38:07 :(((( 07:39:39 bsmntspacedood I am watching sealab 2021 07:40:06 not familiar 07:40:16 i am watching er 07:40:21 07:58:55 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:30 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 08:26:00 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:00 -!- augur has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:03 -!- Gregor has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:03 -!- coppro has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- sebbu has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- rodgort has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- dbc has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- AnMaster has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- Guest7354 has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- Warrigal has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- ineiros has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- oklopol has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- olsner has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Ilari has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- HackEgo has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Rembane has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- mtve has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- SimonRC has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Leonidas has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:27:51 -!- coppro has joined. 08:27:51 -!- augur has joined. 08:27:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:27:51 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:27:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:27:51 -!- dbc has joined. 08:27:51 -!- olsner has joined. 08:27:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:27:51 -!- ineiros has joined. 08:27:51 -!- HackEgo has joined. 08:27:51 -!- EgoBot has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Warrigal has joined. 08:27:52 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Rembane has joined. 08:27:52 -!- mtve has joined. 08:27:52 -!- SimonRC has joined. 08:46:34 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:34 -!- augur has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- Gregor has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- sebbu has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- coppro has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:40 -!- dbc has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:40 -!- rodgort has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:41 -!- oerjan has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- AnMaster has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- Guest7354 has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- Warrigal has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- ineiros has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- HackEgo has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- olsner has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Ilari has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Rembane has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- oklopol has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- SimonRC has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Leonidas has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- mtve has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Deewiant has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- pikhq has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- fungot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:46 -!- comex has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:46 -!- Cerise has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:48 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:48 -!- fizzie has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:35:04 -!- comex has joined. 09:35:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:35:04 -!- fungot has joined. 09:35:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:35:19 -!- fizzie has joined. 09:35:19 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:35:27 -!- Cerise has joined. 09:36:00 -!- coppro has joined. 09:36:00 -!- augur has joined. 09:36:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Gregor has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:36:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:36:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:36:00 -!- dbc has joined. 09:36:00 -!- olsner has joined. 09:36:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:36:00 -!- ineiros has joined. 09:36:00 -!- HackEgo has joined. 09:36:00 -!- EgoBot has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Warrigal has joined. 09:36:00 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Leonidas has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Rembane has joined. 09:36:00 -!- mtve has joined. 09:36:00 -!- SimonRC has joined. 09:41:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:42:30 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 10:11:55 -!- fax has joined. 10:15:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:33:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:00:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:08:39 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 11:29:08 -!- fax has joined. 11:46:50 -!- Pthing has joined. 11:59:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:15:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:36:11 -!- ehird has joined. 12:40:43 22:19:54 log-reading ehird, i have an iphone. 12:40:43 Then do not buy a watch. 12:42:19 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 12:54:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:08:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:08:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:09:26 http://ninite.com/ Windows users discover the package manager... uh, installer. 13:16:46 google earth is file sharing? 13:16:55 err lol 13:16:58 wat 13:17:00 missed "Other" 13:17:00 xD 13:17:03 lol 13:17:12 share dem geographamagical location filezzz 13:17:42 i was thinking you could take pictures of places they don't have ones for yet :P 13:18:38 wait they have like 5 apps everyone already has 13:18:48 well more like 40 but anyway 13:18:56 Then do not buy a watch. <-- what about during tests? You aren't allowed to have a cell phone then 13:19:12 Any number of things? 13:19:28 ehird, what do you mean? 13:19:33 (Among them moving to Denmark; they let you use the internetwebs now. :P) 13:19:49 ehird, during tests in school/at university? 13:19:54 Yes. 13:19:57 Well, some, I think. 13:20:06 Not things like mathematics and the like. 13:20:13 Danish exams. Or was it English? 13:20:22 ehird, math was the stuff I was thinking of primarily here 13:20:23 And I don't remember what schooling level. High school or university, probably. 13:20:27 eh? computers would be the least useful for mathematics 13:20:29 hm 13:20:40 oklopol, that's the point 13:20:44 oklopol: wolfram alpha + wikipedia 13:20:47 pretty helpful 13:20:49 for anything else being able to get information is useful 13:21:08 well, sure 13:21:12 whatever 13:21:18 oklopol, what about running a CAS on the computer? 13:21:19 well yeah if it's basic course in monkey integration 13:21:25 anyway won't the test room have a clock in it 13:21:33 like 90% of the rooms in the world have a clock in them :-P 13:22:11 all our test rooms have clocks in them, but in few they are positioned in such a way that you can't see them from where i sit. 13:22:14 ehird, at the university I'm at: all rooms except none of the rooms in the newest building. (strange yes) 13:22:21 Strange. 13:22:37 Well, buy a $5 watch then and take it when you need it. But augur linked to watches in the vicinity of $150. 13:22:59 ehird, I think there are some outside in the corridor in the newest building. But that is all. 13:23:22 ehird: he also thinks about what clothes to buy, i find that even weirder 13:23:33 oklopol, agreed 13:23:41 oklopol: so basically he's stereotypically gay :-P 13:23:42 i mean clocks at least make this fun clicking sound 13:23:52 watches don't really tick much. 13:23:54 clothes don't do anything 13:23:59 well yeah crappy ones don't 13:24:25 oklopol, you dislike digital watches? 13:24:28 we actually tried to buy loudly ticking clocks with vjn once 13:24:45 oklopol, "tried"? 13:24:46 i rate clothes based on either comfort or boringness/cheapness, former for indoors, latter for outdoors 13:24:47 we wanted to put them in a ring and make the ticking spin around 13:25:08 but there simply aren't loudly ticking clocks. no existo. 13:25:22 ehird, you don't want comfort outside? 13:25:26 turns out that cotton clothes intended for night usage are the only really comfortable clothes 13:25:39 thus saving money by having to buy half the clothes, take that capitalism 13:25:50 or something, I don't know 13:25:55 I'm still residually tired from yesterday 13:26:08 AnMaster: i have not yet seen a clothing item suitable for outdoor usage that is comfortable 13:26:11 i rate shirts like this: black t-shirt without any noticeable deviation from the ideal form of black t-shirts ok, others discarded. 13:26:15 i guess i'm ~~~sensitive~~~ 13:26:22 ehird, depends on how you define "comfort" 13:26:22 i hate tshirts, gotta have something on my arms 13:26:34 well i'm usually as naked as possible 13:26:40 clothes are annoying 13:26:47 ehird, I would say a thick jacket is more comfortable outdoors than a thin one when it is -15C or so 13:26:50 AnMaster: i know it when i see it.... as an approximation let's say the least noticeable 13:26:59 although softness is good, skin is kinda icky :-P 13:27:04 well, sure 13:27:10 I mean comfort as in discarding practicality 13:27:14 ah 13:27:17 i.e. ignoring temperature 13:27:26 oh not pockets then? 13:27:39 i don't have any pockets at the moment 13:27:44 discarding pockets was the first thing I thought of when you said "discarding practicality" 13:27:48 i don't need to carry around anything unless I'm going out 13:27:54 where do you stick your hands then? 13:28:06 oklopol: on the keyboard :D 13:28:24 ehird, where do you keep your credit card and such if you don't have any pockets? 13:28:26 oh you mean right now 13:28:31 but seriously, either by my side or crossing my arms. 13:28:47 i'm obviously naked so no pockets either 13:28:50 i don't really have much opportunity to stand doing nothing indoors, so much exciting stuff to do and all 13:29:14 AnMaster: i don't have a credit card. I do have a debit card thingy, but it's expired. I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors. 13:29:19 I'd put it in my pockets to go out, naturally. 13:29:30 ehird, so you leave it outdoors all the time? 13:29:48 my house has places to put things, you know 13:29:59 ehird: it was clearly a joke 13:30:00 do you guys just have all your possessions in your pockets (that would be kinda cool) 13:30:05 oklopol: was it 13:30:07 i pretty much do 13:30:10 ehird, "I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors." <-- a joke about that... 13:30:15 ohh 13:30:18 even though i also carry my computer baggie 13:30:22 right, I don't read my own lines 13:30:26 :D 13:30:29 i just forget to put stuff in there if it fits my pockets 13:30:47 AnMaster is so huge he puts his laptop in his pocket 13:30:54 yes 13:30:55 THE MORE YOU KNOW ===========================================* 13:31:10 ehird, alas, I couldn't fit the umbrella in there if I put my laptop there too 13:31:12 ==* 13:31:23 =* wait, why are we drawing penises on icr 13:31:25 why would you use an umbrella 13:31:25 *irc 13:31:32 you'd miss all the rain 13:31:34 yeah what oklopol said just open your mouth 13:31:37 and drink all the rain 13:31:38 YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH 13:31:52 ehird, with all the pollution these days? 13:32:04 pfft pollution 13:32:06 it's acid rain. just like LSD! 13:32:07 let me tell you about pollution 13:32:10 i don't believe in pollution 13:32:23 that's really all i wanted to tell you 13:32:29 oklopol: i bet you didn't believe in getting less than a 5 either did you huh 13:32:33 OHHHHHHHHH 13:32:34 ice burn 13:32:38 i just got another 4 13:32:43 but it was from this... 13:32:44 err 13:32:56 ? 13:32:58 well it was like finnish 13:33:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:33:17 "like finnish"? 13:33:18 the rules for writing scientific shit are slightly different than the rules in high school, and i didn't feel like reading them 13:33:23 yeah 13:33:25 the course was 13:33:28 about like finnish 13:33:46 ah. what about the "like" bit then? 13:33:55 eh? 13:34:06 that's what like means, "fix the errors in this sentence" 13:34:12 oklopol, it sounded like "similar, but not exactly the same" 13:34:12 * ehird wants to acquire a model f 13:34:15 and ambiguities and shti 13:34:19 *shit 13:34:20 * ehird waits for AnMaster to call his typo 13:34:38 ehird, what typo= 13:34:41 s/=/?/ 13:34:43 AnMaster: yeah it could mean that too 13:34:51 [13:34] * ehird wants to acquire a model f 13:34:53 ("similar, but not...") 13:35:03 ehird, well, I don't know what a model f is 13:35:07 *shrug* 13:35:08 but it didn't, and the like construct requires you to know what i mean 13:35:10 i thought you were gonna go *model m 13:35:11 :P 13:35:20 ehird, was it what you meant? 13:35:26 nope 13:35:29 a model f is one of these babies: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:35:41 note the odd alt/caps lock keys, ctrl-where-caps-lock-is-nowadays (yes i know anmaster) 13:35:46 and odd layout in general 13:36:05 they use capacitive buckling springs, which is like the model m membrane buckling springs but better 13:36:16 ehird, why? Why did the shape the keys like one of those tetris blocks... 13:36:18 http://www.flickr.com/photos/moparx/3887360487/ another model, this one has more off the weird keycaps 13:36:23 and a seemingly more compact layout 13:36:25 you know the one like: 13:36:27 # 13:36:28 ### 13:36:37 AnMaster: the alt and caps lock? 13:36:47 manufacturing ease, I guess, or something 13:36:49 ehird, can't read at that low res 13:36:52 but probably 13:36:52 maybe because it was in the 80s 13:36:57 erm 13:37:00 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:37:01 ehird, how is that a reason? 13:37:02 is not really low res 13:37:09 enter is pretty tetris too 13:37:19 AnMaster: nobody had really decided which way to do big keys was best? 13:37:20 i guess 13:37:23 oklopol, less so 13:37:24 but it's in my current keyboard too, it seems 13:37:26 that enter is the ISO layout enter 13:37:31 AnMaster: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg 13:37:36 higher res photo of a slightly different model 13:37:44 with numpad joined together and more of the weird-style keys 13:37:47 yeah 13:37:53 that's the Personal Computer XT, I think 13:37:56 no arrow keys? :( 13:37:59 as opposed to the first one, a Personal Computer AT 13:38:07 AnMaster: these shipped with the original ibm pc 13:38:32 AnMaster: something to note in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg 13:38:36 it's the european layout, but @ is on 2 13:38:39 and " is on ' 13:38:42 like the american layout 13:38:51 ehird, eh 13:38:53 also, ' is shown as a closing quote with ` being its flipping 13:39:01 ehird, I haven't seen a keyboard with @ elsewhere 13:39:07 european boards. 13:39:12 with the multi-line enter 13:39:17 also, in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg, esc is next to 1 13:39:23 and ` is relocated to before enter 13:39:32 anyway, I just want them for their keyfeel 13:39:32 ehird, Swedish keyboards, multi-line enter, @ is on altgr-2 13:39:40 easy enough to get an adapter to PS/2 13:39:46 well, not that easy, but still 13:39:48 AnMaster: well, fine 13:39:48 ehird, however I remember old swedish mac keyboards used to have @ elsewhere 13:39:51 forgot where 13:40:16 old here means "early imacs and older, gone by G4 already" 13:40:27 Fun fact: When the first boards with the control/alt next to each other were made, ctrl was next to space and alt was further away. 13:40:34 It was more ergonomic because most shortcuts use ctrl. 13:40:45 why did they switch them then? 13:40:48 This was changed for some unfathomable reason. OS X has Command in the position Ctrl used to be. 13:40:53 Which is good. 13:40:57 Easy enough to remap, anyway. 13:41:03 (in other OSs) 13:41:14 ehird, is it hard to remap in OS X btw? 13:41:54 I'll demonstrate with a picture. 13:42:26 Huh. 13:42:29 ehird, you can't hit alt-s (current placement) with part of the palm for the alt. But it works with ctrl. Not sure if that is an argument for or against the current placement though 13:42:29 It screenshotted incorrectly. 13:42:31 Let me try again. 13:42:58 Hitting modifier keys with the palm is the Right Thing. 13:43:05 Most people don't do it, though. 13:43:05 however using part of your palm for ctrl is a bit cramped. So probably an argument against 13:43:15 It's not cramped, it's the ergonomically correct way. 13:43:46 ehird, well yeah I have to use the thumb for s when my palm is able to reach ctrl. otherwise I have to curl up the fingers rather badly. 13:44:15 and on laptop it doesn't work at all 13:44:39 because fn is outermost and you can't really get the hand in the right position for it there anyway 13:44:59 and fn can't be remapped because it doesn't work like normal keys 13:45:35 it doesn't generate a key event in fact, until you press some other key as well 13:45:55 AnMaster: 13:45:56 http://imgur.com/8YeGr.png 13:45:56 http://i.imgur.com/1W6iS.png 13:46:24 ehird, mhm 13:46:52 Ah, the http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg one isn't feasible 13:46:59 There's no XT→anything adapters available 13:47:26 ehird, build one? 13:47:52 AnMaster: That idea fails right at the start as I couldn't get an FPGA with an XT input for obvious reasons. 13:48:14 Anyway, I don't really mind the layout being more "conventional"; I'm pretty sure the weird-style keys aren't very nice anyway. 13:48:25 Although Esc next to the 1? Hot hot hot. Want. 13:48:28 ...but I can just remap that. 13:48:54 ehird, um. I fail to see why that is required. Just build a circuit that converts the pins from the keyboard to the right voltage ranges for an FPGA and put that in between. 13:48:57 and such 13:49:04 might not even need that. 13:49:07 I can't get a slot for the pins to go into, you see. 13:49:15 ehird, solder the wires onto it? 13:49:30 This idea keeps getting worse, worse, and more out of my league. 13:49:40 Whoa, look at the position of Esc in http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:49:43 Nezxt to Num Lock 13:49:44 *Next 13:49:47 Above 7 13:49:57 ehird, okay that is a good reason. But soldering the wires directly to the circuit board wouldn't be hard. 13:50:00 That numpad button layout is freaky-deaky 13:50:26 ehird, esc is where numlock usually is? 13:50:33 And Num Lock is next to it 13:50:35 on modern ones I mean 13:51:22 That board could work quite well even on a modern computer actually. Remap the keys a bit to have a convenient Esc (if you want to use vim, that is). Map the Caps Lock to the Windows key (for e.g. controlling window manager and other keyboard shortcuts) (bottom-right key below right shift). You already have Ctrl and Alt in a semi-convenient place. 13:51:36 And who could resist assigning a bank of hotkeys to that lovely F block? 13:52:19 * AnMaster tries to remember when he last used escape in emacs 13:52:30 Every time you press Alt, kiddo. 13:52:41 ehird, well yes, but I meant the key marked esc 13:52:53 Never, it's identical to holding Altt. 13:52:54 *Alt 13:53:01 ehird, I know that 13:53:20 I was just wondering if I ever used esc instead of holding alt 13:53:23 ... 13:55:04 Here's a better picture of the usable-today Model F: 13:55:11 http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8276/img3347nvm.jpg 13:55:15 (big) 13:55:24 Plus connector. 13:55:42 Hey, look at the LEDs. 13:55:49 Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock. 13:55:50 Freaky! 13:55:53 ehird, wasn't there keyboards with up to F24 or such? 13:56:00 Terminal boards? Yeah. 13:56:07 ehird, also it would be annoying only having up to F10 13:56:09 Those things were fucking beasts. 13:56:10 rather than F12 13:56:16 No it wouldn't. 13:56:23 The F keys are pretty unused. 13:56:36 ehird, eh. Switching between VTs in linux for example? 13:56:49 Besides, just map Windows+F1-2 to F11-12 13:56:57 Windows being the Caps Lock in that picture 13:57:04 AnMaster: I don't use that many consoles. 13:57:11 Heck, even 6 terminals is a lot. 13:57:16 Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock. 13:57:16 Freaky! 13:57:18 why? 13:57:24 Because Num Lock goes first since forever. 13:57:32 ok good point 13:57:40 Most of the time Num Lock is on, so for the vast majority of time just the middle light will be on. 13:57:44 Also, there are arrow keys there, you know. 13:57:52 You access them by turning off Num Lock. 13:57:59 ehird, numlock is usually off in my experience? 13:58:10 Does typing the numpad give numbers? 13:58:13 Then Num Lock is on. 13:58:17 ehird, of course it doesn't 13:58:38 Oh, is this another "I am AnMaster and my obscure use case is the entire world" session? 13:58:45 ehird, no. 13:58:51 ehird, I'm using the laptop :P 13:58:57 Hur hur hur 13:59:01 Apparently the Model F weighs 3 kg. 13:59:04 Or thereabouts. 13:59:26 Should show this to everyone who claims that the Model M is built like a tank, ever. 13:59:31 ehird, a little bit more than an slightly above average laptop then? 13:59:37 a* 13:59:37 I wonder if there's a terminal Model F. That'd be a beast. 13:59:48 AnMaster: But not very evenly distributed. 13:59:51 That thing will feel HEAVY. 14:00:05 ehird, how do you mean? 14:00:11 A terminal Model F would have all the crazy F keys, the numpad-like arrow key formation with the middle button, a few weird-ass keys... 14:00:20 it is heavier at one end? 14:00:26 while a laptop isn't? 14:00:27 It'd be gigantic, heavy as fuck, loud as fuck, tactile as fuck and AWESOME AS FUCK. 14:00:32 (much at least) 14:00:48 AnMaster: I'd say a Model F would feel 2x as heavy as a 3 kg laptop. 14:00:50 That's just a guess, though. 14:00:58 ehird, picture of a terminal keyboard? 14:01:11 Will find a good one. Sec. 14:01:26 AnMaster: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&stc=1&d=1254255319 14:01:28 BEHOLD. 14:01:31 A Model M terminal board. 14:01:49 ehird, same but extra F keys? that's all? 14:01:54 wait no 14:01:55 You are blind. 14:01:58 Have a nice day. 14:01:58 there is a "rule" one too 14:02:00 and more 14:02:04 what the hell is the rule one? 14:02:10 Look at the arrow keys and the keys above, the whole keyblock to the left. 14:02:12 Look at the numpad. 14:02:20 They are GIGANTIC. 14:02:34 The extra keys are for terminals. 14:02:41 ehird, numpad looks fairly normal apart from *some* of those blue labels 14:02:50 LOL, I like the num lock key. It's scroll lock too. 14:02:54 What a compromise for such a huge board. 14:03:01 AnMaster: It has a space key on the /. 14:03:05 the "home/pgup" and such on the numeric ones. are on my keyboard 14:03:05 And the + key doubles up as tab. 14:03:11 ehird, hm *why* 14:03:18 Accountants. 14:03:20 Data entry. 14:03:22 That's what the numpad is for. 14:03:25 oh hah 14:03:27 true 14:03:30 What did you think it was for — emulating a calculator? 14:03:51 Take a look at that numpad area. "FidMk\n\nFA2\n\blue{PgUp}" 14:04:00 Ooh, and more on the side. 14:04:05 ChgRq? Can't read it properly. 14:04:07 Best key ever. 14:04:09 ehird, nah, more like a well aligned set of keys that you can use for 8 directions in tile based games (of course not) 14:04:18 You could just have that key and some modifiers. 14:04:23 And do EVERYTHING. 14:04:35 Erm 14:04:37 not numpad area 14:04:38 arrow key area 14:04:40 Of course 14:04:49 ehird, but why "rule"? 14:04:58 what happens when you press that I wonder 14:05:08 Probably a horizontal rule in a word processor? Or something. 14:05:36 "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P 14:05:44 And "Test" below that; how convenient. 14:05:47 Computer, test my software 14:05:52 *Computer, test my software! 14:06:05 AnMaster: That huge terminal board is just 2.36 kg. 14:06:06 "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P <-- I don't get it? 14:06:14 So saying that the much smaller Model F is 3 kg... 14:06:19 and imagining a Model F terminal board... 14:06:20 TANK 14:06:26 reset\nctrl\nquit? 14:06:27 :) 14:06:48 AnMaster: Logic Pro = Apple's acquiring of eMagic Logic = professional music software 14:06:59 My dad has Logic for the Atari ST. :-) 14:07:00 ehird, wow at the "profile" picture in http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5264&page=2 14:07:10 He bought the ST on the day it came out in the UK. 14:07:15 "The risers on these are good fun, on the high setting the top is about 12cm off the desk:" 14:07:26 fucking hell 14:07:57 ehird, heh 14:08:09 ehird, he works with music? 14:08:26 ehird, also that tab key is a bit strange 14:08:29 ← 14:08:36 → 14:08:37 ← 14:08:37 He used to be involved with that sort of stuff, but he's been a phone-call technician for an audio technology company for as long as I can remember. 14:08:38 like that 14:08:42 err wait 14:08:47 I got the lower arrow wrong 14:08:48 → 14:08:49 I mean 14:08:50 The Atari ST worked as of some years ago. 14:08:52 meant* 14:08:52 for it 14:09:05 It played Monkey Island like a champ; and old audio software sure is confusing. 14:09:10 At least when you're a kid like I was... 14:09:21 ehird, it is more confusing than modern audio software? 14:09:25 also doesn't it work any longer? 14:09:28 The resolutions are fun; the high one is much taller than it is wide so it's hard to read any text. 14:09:39 AnMaster: I don't know; I haven't been to his house since ~2005. 14:09:53 ehird, oh? parents split up? :/ 14:09:54 AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that. 14:09:57 Just a guess. 14:10:01 AnMaster: Yes, when I was 3 14:10:22 "atari monkey island" in google image source doth not produce useful results 14:10:32 AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that. <-- "it" meaning modern or old? 14:10:35 There we go. http://www.scummbar.com/games/monkey1/images/atari.gif 14:10:39 AnMaster: Old. 14:11:09 AnMaster: oh that geekhack page you linked: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/6110344/front_1v.jpg 14:11:11 *On 14:11:14 Model F terminal board! 14:11:19 it is? 14:11:20 It looks just as much like a tank as I'd expect. 14:11:20 nice 14:11:32 ehird, what is the text under those F keys at the top 14:11:33 can't read it 14:11:39 Nor can I. 14:13:42 ehird, why stop at 24 function keys 14:14:10 to match the current trend we should really have 64-bi^Wfunction keyboard 14:15:08 "To input a number, hold down the keys F1-64 to insert a binary number, and hit enter." 14:15:11 It truly is 64-bits! 14:15:15 ehird, that would be an aircraft carrier! (continuing the military analogy) 14:15:35 ehird, heh 14:15:36 An inexplicably air- and space-borne ultimate half of an aircraft carrier. 14:15:59 ehird, "ultimate half" meaning? 14:16:18 Well, it was half of an aircraft carrier, and I turned my aircraft carriers into ultimate aircraft carriers, so... 14:16:21 (The point thing.) 14:16:28 oh THAT 14:16:29 right 14:16:50 better idea 14:16:54 a LaTeX keyboard 14:17:02 with keys for commonly used stuff 14:17:27 like a key marked \hphantom{ 14:17:30 or such 14:17:50 and a "math mode lock" 14:18:43 that would change large parts of those special keys to math mode ones instead 14:18:51 (there would have to be a math shift too) 14:19:31 nice, it seems AltGr really is "ISO Level3 Shift". Never knew 14:21:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:25:25 I want this: http://www.bluesnews.com/miscimages/tmmarble150.gif 14:29:14 ehird, I want one that works equally well in either hand (most likely impossible) 14:29:25 They exist; finger-controlled. 14:29:31 Thumb trackballs appear to be better, however. 14:29:37 Anyway, why? 14:29:40 ehird, I meant thumb ones. It could work however 14:29:45 by having it swappable 14:29:58 like pulling part of the left and right side away and switching their places 14:30:05 had to be a cleaver design that could be mirrored 14:30:05 Anyway, why? 14:30:20 ehird, because I use both hands for mice normally? 14:30:35 * AnMaster has a symmetric mouse for that reason 14:30:43 No reason to with a trackball. Everything's stationary. 14:30:45 atm I'm using left, but just a while ago right 14:31:07 Besides, the fine motor skills you need in your thumb probably take a while to develop. 14:31:10 Of course it's best to have a keyboard without a number pad. 14:31:12 ehird, to reduce strain on thumb? 14:31:20 That way it's easier to reach by far. 14:31:21 ehird, for you maybe 14:31:28 For any mousing. 14:31:49 ehird, well, put the number pad on the side you don't use the mice on atm? 14:31:55 And if you don't care enough about the mouse to chop off the number pad for your main computer-usage board, don't bother paying the extra for a trackball. 14:31:56 as in, movable number pad 14:32:04 Just get a $5 mouse because you clearly don't care about your pointing experience. 14:32:10 ehird, that's because I use the number pad... 14:32:44 Then obviously the immense pain of swapping keyboards when you need the number pad, or plugging in a separate numberpad, outweighs all advantages of pointing to you. 14:32:50 So, just get a $5 mouse. 14:33:00 (Separate numberpads do exist and are easily available.) 14:34:04 As an aside, do you know if Xkb can be told to use a different key map for a separate numpad than for the primary keyboard? 14:34:21 AH, THE OTHER KEYBOARDIC PERSON HERE hi 14:34:26 Probably 14:34:31 It appears as a separate keyboard, yyeah? 14:34:39 ehird, you missed my point completelt 14:34:41 Define "appears as" 14:34:42 completely* 14:34:47 but whatever 14:34:54 If I try stuff out in xev I see no difference between them 14:35:08 AnMaster: You know, the intent of communication is to transfer a thought to someone else. If I misunderstood that's not my fault. 14:35:19 Deewiant: Do they appear as different keyboard objects, so to speak 14:35:20 I don't know where I could see a difference between which keyboard a keypress came from 14:35:23 Different devices 14:35:27 ehird, same goes in the other direction I assume? :P 14:35:29 Check what X thinks its xorg.conf is 14:35:31 or whatever 14:35:32 ehird: Where would I check? 14:35:36 X -configure 14:35:39 as root 14:35:47 ehird, you seem to blame me for not understanding you a lot... 14:35:51 will start X, dump a hueg liek xbox config file into your current dir, and tada 14:35:59 AnMaster: Yes, but I readily admit I'm a hypocrite. 14:36:34 ehird: I use input hotplugging, keyboards aren't in xorg.conf. 14:36:40 ehird, sigh 14:36:58 Deewiant: irrelevant 14:37:04 X -configure dumps everything it has right now 14:37:09 It even works on HAL 14:37:18 That'd require stopping X. :-/ 14:37:43 Waah. 14:37:58 Detach all the processes from X11 somehow so you can reattach them. Somehow. :P 14:38:08 See, if X was well-designed they wouldn't depend on the X server being alive to stay alive... 14:38:49 Well, I just stopped X. 14:38:51 Deewiant, try xinput(1) maybe= 14:38:54 s/=/?/ 14:38:55 Only one InputDevice. 14:39:07 Deewiant: Write two sections manually, I guess. 14:39:09 and yeah -configure wouldn't help 14:39:13 You can't hotplug PS/2 anyway. 14:39:24 *officially 14:39:28 It's worked fine for me so far. :-P 14:39:33 And the numpad's USB anyway. 14:39:45 (Only one PS/2 port necessitates that.) 14:40:22 Here's a nickel, kid; go buy one more PS/... no, wait... one less PS/... no, um, never mind. 14:40:58 I wonder if scrolling with a wheel-less trackball is practical. 14:41:53 Hmm, I wonder if I need MPX for this to work. 14:42:58 Well, I evidently have MPX, since it's in 1.7. 14:44:15 Hmm, maybe that's what broke my key repeat settings recently. 14:44:46 (Pressing any key apart from numlock on the numpad causes backspace [capslock] to no longer repeat) 14:46:22 Deewiant, mpx? 14:46:48 http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=mpx 14:47:52 Old school, all the kids are using lmgtfy 14:48:04 MPX is for, you know, pointers, innit? 14:48:10 Sorry for being old school 14:48:15 Did I say it was bad 14:48:19 lmgtfy requires javascript, which AnMaster won't have enabled 14:48:41 Your client does not have permission to get URL /custom?q=mpx&sa=Search&client=pub-5834014132134539&forid=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en from this server. (Client IP address: 212.183.134.129) 14:48:42 hurf durf 14:48:48 Deewiant: He probably disabled meta refreshes too. 14:48:58 I doubt lynx supports them, actually. 14:49:03 Or is it elinks he uses. 14:49:09 The page links to the appropriate google search directly. 14:49:13 Maybe Konqueror broke it in KHTML "Dead and Buried" 33.4 14:49:23 Deewiant: It's a 403 for me, at least :P 14:49:27 (The redirect) 14:49:36 I talked about the link, not the redirect. 14:49:46 Rather, the links, of which there are three. 14:49:59 Redirect seems to work fine for me. 14:51:36 ehird, w3m 14:51:44 No, that's ais523. 14:58:52 Whee, nice syntax. 15:07:44 i'm a point, i'm a ball, i'm a stick, i'm a stall 15:14:19 No, that's ais523. <-- huh? I use both lynx and w3m. I don't use links2 much, and elinks I don't even have installed 15:16:05 A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300 15:16:05 per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm. 15:18:26 "closed captioner"? 15:19:14 "Many users of this machine can even reach 30 15:19:14 per minute" 15:19:18 that doesn't seem right 15:19:21 did a 0 get lost there? 15:19:24 http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=closed+captioner 15:19:26 Yes. 15:19:31 And " words " 15:19:34 "The righardware template is no good, so I'm not using it." 15:20:08 righardware? 15:21:28 ah so that is what closed captioning is 15:25:09 righardware is a template on the wearable computing wiki. 15:26:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Steno-example.gif 15:26:54 ehird, pretty, but what the heck is that mapping? 15:27:16 [15:16] ehird: A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can 15:27:18 reach 300 words per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm. 15:27:22 yes 15:27:24 it's stenospeak 15:27:25 I read that 15:27:33 ehird, but I asked for encoding table or such 15:27:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographersv 15:27:43 oops 15:27:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographers 15:31:06 "Many users of this machine can even reach 30 15:31:08 per minute" 15:31:10 He meant 30 pages. 15:31:29 and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and per the 15:31:32 I absolutely did not. 15:31:33 Stenographers can write a book in ten minutes. 15:31:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype has the mapping 15:31:48 Gregor: Are you joking or what :P 15:36:07 good question 15:51:51 I just noticed that mac os thinks that sheepshaver's emulated disks are "internal floppy drive"s. A 500 MB floppy drive eh 15:52:14 Hm. 15:52:15 Basilisk II ftw. 15:52:19 No, awit. 15:52:21 that's the one that sucks 15:52:22 Observation: gnash actually ... like ... works 'n stuff. 15:52:23 Kinda. 15:52:24 Mini vMac ftw. 15:52:30 Gregor: Not on YouTube last I tried. 15:52:40 Then again I couldn't be fucked to compile it myself, I just used Ubuntu's package 15:52:41 ehird, well it can't run the old games I want. Not even Basilisk II can 15:52:41 I'm using YouTube right now. 15:52:46 Gregor: CPU usage? 15:52:46 And I'm on sidux :P 15:52:47 and mini vmac is for even older 15:52:57 Mini vMac is = Basilisk II in recentness. 15:53:00 Emulates a Mac Pluss. 15:53:01 ehird: Pretty high, but only one of my quadcore. 15:53:06 Gregor: Sidux? Frls? xd 15:53:07 *xD 15:53:14 ehird, basilisk II emulates a quadra iirc? 15:53:19 Also, great, so it's just like the actual Flash player but it works less. 15:53:19 (spelling?) 15:53:30 Yes, I'm actually using sidux. It's awesomesauce. 15:53:34 AnMaster: It's a setting. But Mac Plus is fine for 68k. 15:53:44 Gregor: What's it got over sid 15:54:02 hm 15:54:17 ehird: They have a repo of stuff that's sort of a fixed-sid. It's a little bit intermediate between sid and testing. 15:54:54 I'd just use testing since, you know, Debian devs won't pander to people who want a "stable sid" so sidux is kinda fighting the tide. 15:54:59 bbl 15:55:07 Well, that's a lie; I'd actually use mine. Which I need to name really quickly. 15:55:53 I had used testing, I'm trying out sidux now. 15:57:46 AsOfYetUnnamedThing FTW! 15:57:49 It's totally kick-raddin'. 15:57:56 -!- oklokok has joined. 15:57:59 If it existed yet. 15:58:03 Just need hardwarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. 15:58:11 Yes, a war that is hard is what I need. 16:13:04 btw, I've already switched to proprieflash :P 16:13:37 ehird, emulator to begin with? 16:13:58 Emulator? I hardly knew 'er! 16:14:13 (Emulator? Damn near killed 'em!) 16:14:33 Gregor: I thought that was a keyboard layout for a second 16:14:34 ... 16:14:35 I don't know why 16:15:40 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 16:16:04 -!- oklokok has joined. 16:16:50 Yay sntax 16:16:52 *syntax 16:17:33 WOO A NEW XKCD. It's an unfunny non-joke like always 16:18:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:33:25 So, rwx.st got squatted days after I saw it was available. 16:33:47 Looks like Swedish to me; AnMaster — some broadband company? 16:34:07 http://www.bahnhof.se/ is the company, it seems. 16:34:19 http://www.bahnhof.se/privat/ 16:34:19 Yep 16:34:23 " 16:34:23 that's an ISP in Sweden iirc. Or maybe backbone company 16:34:24 not sure 16:34:24 Bahnhof är Sveriges största oberoende och fristående internetoperatör." 16:34:56 "Bahnhof is Sweden's largest independent and freestanding internet operator" 16:48:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:48:38 Deewiant, really? Hm 16:48:40 oerjan, iwc 16:57:29 to do a zen pogrom, you first have to learn not to do a zen pogrom. 16:57:32 * ehird comes up with a fun little *unixy* design for a combined screen saver/locker 16:58:31 no no, a unixy design would clearly have the screen saver and locker as separate programs 16:58:54 oerjan, indeed. In fact that is what xscreensaver does 16:59:04 for security reasons 16:59:14 oerjan: yes, mine does 16:59:21 specifically, a screen saver can be any program at all, no special api 16:59:37 ehird, it has to be full screen though? 16:59:46 but you said "combined"... 16:59:51 oerjan: well, sort of 16:59:51 the locker basically just does the magic locking, overlays the screen with black, and then optionally starts your screensaver program 17:00:02 ehird, that isn't combined 17:00:05 it is, ffs 17:00:10 if you'd listen 17:00:13 fuck it, no point explaining 17:00:15 ehird, how? it runs two apps 17:00:26 the locker, and the app on top 17:00:29 firstly, they're not apps, they're programs. 17:00:32 secondly, there is no secondly 17:00:55 ehird, define the difference between an application and a program? 17:01:06 an application is what WIMP guis have 17:01:17 a program is a self-contained black-box like a function 17:01:27 brb phone 17:01:32 unixy programs are either written in C or compositions of other programs. 17:01:45 anyway, it's combined because you can use it to do both, duh 17:01:55 it's a combined screen locker/saver *engine- 17:01:58 **engine* 17:02:11 just because it doesn't include any actual screen savers doesn't mean it isn't a combined screen locker/saver 17:03:20 very zen. 17:04:21 i've eaten semi-recently and i'm not tired, so i'm fairly sure either the sides of my bed swapped overnight making me exit through the wrong one, or you're all being especially annoying today :| 17:04:32 ANYWAY 17:04:43 the advantage of the design is that you can use any program as the screensaver 17:04:57 xlogo, glxgears, even an xterm running top or something 17:04:57 naturally if the sides swapped you must now be in the mirror universe 17:05:03 do you have a goatee? 17:05:07 yes. 17:05:10 (no) 17:05:11 darn 17:05:18 oh 17:05:20 heck, you could even run xscreensaver's screensaver 17:05:24 if you wanted to, for some reason 17:05:31 (not the locker though, that'd Break Shit) 17:05:40 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 17:06:02 and a changing screensaver is just a shell script that goes through a list in random order, spawns it, sleeps N seconds, kills it, and runs the next one 17:06:35 (the locker will capture all keyboard and mouse events so it's safe) 17:10:38 i believe you could even set the screensaver to a program that turns off the display 17:11:12 well, it might not be that simple since it has to turn back on to show the password prompt or return to the computer, but easy enough 17:14:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:16:38 oh do you have a *goatee*, was kinda far from the screen and thought oerjan asked if you had a goatse, like mirror universe => inverse ass... or something 17:17:38 well that's my contribution -> 17:18:17 well now you are just talking out your ass 17:19:09 *out of 17:33:46 what the hell is *.wps 17:34:09 I guessed word perfect but that didn't work. file(1) says "microsoft office document" but trying as that doesn't work either 17:34:47 and I tried works too btw. 17:34:53 didn't work either 17:34:56 very strange 17:35:24 It's Microsoft Works. 17:35:32 ehird, isn't works .wks? 17:35:43 I don't know, I just googled. Like you should have. 17:35:52 Detailed information for file extension WPS: 17:35:53 Primary association: Works 17:35:53 Company: Microsoft Corporation 17:35:53 Mime type: application/vnd.ms-works, application/x-msworks-wp, zz-application/zz-winassoc-wps, text/plain 17:35:53 Identifying characters Hex: D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A E1 00 , ASCII: 17:35:54 Program ID: MicrosoftWorks.WordProcessor.5 , MSWorks4WordProcessor , Works.Word.Document.8 17:35:55 ehird, it didn't work to convert from that 17:35:55 Related links: Microsoft Office Home Page, MS Article: Open Works in Word, OpenOffice.org 17:36:01 Converter's fault. 17:36:20 ehird, tried MS word's own works converter 17:37:18 Try Works itself. 17:37:32 ehird, don't have it 17:37:37 Pirate it. 17:37:54 ehird, takes too long. Told the person to re-send it as rtf 17:38:04 Why didn't you do that first thing? 17:38:44 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3502&stc=1&d=1249088737 17:38:45 ehird, because there is a certain risk of having to tell the person how to do that. 17:38:45 Pictured: a Boscom keyboard being dropped from a ladder. 17:38:49 In stop motion! 17:38:49 which would be possibly worse 17:39:11 ehird, did it work after? 17:39:14 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3503&stc=1&d=1249088928 17:39:14 and why did they do that 17:39:15 Various parts jumping ship. 17:39:28 AnMaster: Think so, yes. To see how high you need to drop it from to destroy the rivets. 17:39:46 It's MythBusters-style "science" and it's hilarious. 17:39:56 ehird, even with those parts jumping out of it? 17:40:04 Those are just parts of the rivets, I believe. 17:40:15 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3509&stc=1&d=1249142093 17:40:15 Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard. 17:40:30 "What's surprising is that plugging it in MOST of the keys work fine - All the Function keys, most of the main cluster except the left modifiers. Numpad and weird keys on left are toast. Not bad for a 12 foot concrete drop." 17:40:42 Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard. <-- huh? 17:40:51 Look closely. 17:41:01 The case has been warped by the drops. 17:41:06 oh right the bottom isn't straight 17:41:22 ehird, sure it isn't due to a wide angle camera lens? 17:41:33 Since I stole the joke from the post, I'm sure./ 17:41:39 s/\/$// 17:41:40 heh 17:42:09 ehird, n-key roll over? 17:42:56 All Model Ms and followups (Unicomp (who took over from Lexmark who took over from IBM) are the OEM for Boscom) get something like 12-key rollover. Or was it 20? 17:43:01 Not n-key, that's a recent thing. 17:43:06 But higher than your average board. 17:43:18 USB only does 6-key rollover anyway, and only gamers complain. 17:43:34 And most keyboards in general only get about 3-key rollover. 17:43:35 So it's kinda moot. 17:44:19 ehird, does modifier keys count separately? 17:44:49 It varies based on the matrix. It's very complicated. 17:44:55 There are a few standard tests to work out the rollover. 17:44:58 ehird, my main issue is that my current keyboard doesn't allow Alt-Space-Right arrow (alt-space-left-arrow works fine) 17:45:20 Which? ThinkPad? 17:45:22 remapping to ctrl makes ctrl-space-right work but not ctrl-space-left 17:45:26 ehird, no, desktop 17:45:32 Oh, that crappy PS/2 17:46:11 ehird, btw, when did you last see a laptop with full sized arrow keys? 17:46:36 My shitty netbook. 17:46:42 mhm 17:47:08 i love how I can middle-click a button in safari to submit a form in a new tab 17:47:11 great for e.g. search fields 17:47:41 ehird, does that work in firefox (I don't think I ever tried) 17:48:29 hm nop. 17:48:31 nope* 17:48:53 try ctrl+click 17:50:10 ehird, did you know that Microsoft's Virtual PC was originally based on a mac program with the same name? 17:50:18 of which I just found a copy in an old box 17:50:25 It's still offered today. 17:50:30 ehird, for mac? 17:50:31 heh 17:50:34 Yes. 17:50:46 this is 3.0 btw 17:50:57 In July 2006 Microsoft released the Windows-hosted version as a free product.[1] In August 2006 Microsoft announced the Macintosh-hosted version would not be ported to Intel-based Macintosh computers, effectively discontinuing the product as PowerPC-based Macintosh computers are no longer manufactured. The newest release, Windows Virtual PC is available only for Windows 7 hosts. 17:50:58 Well, OK 17:51:19 ehird, maybe I should try to install it under the mac emulator, and run linux in it 17:51:48 And run SheepShaver from the Linux. 17:51:55 Pretty sure Virtual PC is Windows only though 17:51:57 guest 17:52:05 ehird, nop, I ran linux under it before 17:52:10 ages ago 17:52:10 Go for it then 17:52:22 ehird, yeah will 17:52:57 Name for a bug tracking system: Samsa 17:53:16 ehird, however, I'm sceptical of it working.... Sheepshaver isn't exactly reliable even with other programs. And VirtualPC did something to put the CPU in little endian mode iirc 17:55:54 ehird, meh, starting virtualpc makes sheepshaver segfault. 100% reproducible. 17:56:00 try mini vmac. 17:56:08 no configuration required ;-) 17:56:10 ehird, it needs OS 8 or later. PPC 17:56:16 mini vmac is ppc 17:56:38 ehird, oh you mean running mini vmac under sheepshaver? 17:56:44 no 17:57:16 wait, it isn't ppc 17:57:18 it's 68k 17:57:29 AnMaster: if you have a windows host you could try vmac 17:57:38 ehird, can't it run on linux? 17:57:49 oh, vmac is 68k only too 17:58:03 hmm it does run on linux yes 17:58:10 unmainntained since '98 though :) 17:58:13 *unmaintained 17:58:14 http://www.vmac.org/ 17:58:15 ehird, why do you think I'm using sheepshaver if there was an alternative for PPC OS 8/9 17:58:16 ? 17:58:24 dunno? 17:58:29 meh 17:59:08 ehird, sheepshaver is crashy, and buggy. Like I want to run those old avernum games. Avernum 1 and avernum 2 works fine. Avernum 3 gives a blank screen. :( 17:59:10 rc shell is so <3 17:59:14 same for blades of avernum 17:59:20 sheepshaver is shit, basilisk ii is also shit but slightly less so 17:59:30 ehird, basilisk II is 68k 17:59:32 mini vmac is 700x less shitty than both if you can do 68k 17:59:36 AnMaster: i know that. 17:59:44 i was running through all the current mac emulators 17:59:45 and these games are PPC 17:59:51 stfu 18:00:02 I think they might run under OS X. Not sure though 18:00:21 ehird, does intel OS X's rosetta support Carbon? Or only Coca? 18:00:23 AnMaster: Classic just runs OS 9 in OS X basically 18:00:30 It supports Carbon 18:00:36 ehird, I checked, they link to carbon. 18:00:38 hm 18:00:44 but I don't think classic binaries would work, Mach-O and the like ... 18:00:46 however 18:00:50 ah 18:00:51 feel free to email them to penguinofthegods@gmail.com 18:00:53 and I'll try them 18:00:59 there IS a chance they'll work 18:01:04 rosetta is just a ppc emulator, btw 18:01:06 a fast one too 18:01:16 photoshop cs3 is almost usable on this imac with it 18:01:22 and it's what people used on mac pros for a while 18:01:38 slower than a g5, sure... but still probably the fastest totally-different-CPU emulator out there 18:01:51 ehird, I can provide you with download link. They are shareware (only part of the game world available unregistered) with "response code" system. As in, on install they generate a key, and you have to enter a response key 18:02:00 there are cracks around (that runs on windows) 18:02:06 err 18:02:06 Okay. 18:02:09 s/cracks/keygens/ 18:02:14 ehird, sec for download link 18:02:32 ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin 18:02:43 .bin ;_; 18:02:49 ehird, what about .bin? 18:02:53 it is the standard isn't it? 18:03:02 Yes ... ten years ago 18:03:03 ehird, hqx is more annoying 18:03:21 That download appears to have failed, I'll try wget 18:03:22 I could download it and repack it as .sit.hqx I guess... 18:03:28 OS X does .bin it seems 18:03:42 ehird, I know I wgeted it to the shared folder thing 18:03:43 No such file `Avernum3.demo.bin'. 18:03:46 huh 18:03:49 thou failest to the top amount! 18:03:59 ehird, ah try ftp://ftp.spiderwebsoftware.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.v101.bin 18:03:59 * ehird opens the directory it's in 18:04:00 then 18:04:06 oh hm 18:04:14 Works, how queer. 18:04:19 And I can see it in the folder, but eh. 18:04:23 (The irony one) 18:04:26 (Spider one works) 18:04:46 ehird, spiderwebsoftware is the ones that produced it btw 18:05:19 ehird, and the latter link is an older version. Oh heh it says they ported it to native OS X in the later version. 18:05:22 that explains a lot 18:05:39 well. I guess if I could get OS X to run in some emulator I could use it 18:05:45 pearpc? 18:05:56 VirtualBox + OSX86 18:06:10 ehird, that works? Hardware compat and such I mean 18:06:10 I suggest Snow Leopard, since it has the Intel optimisations 18:06:18 AnMaster: Try qemu if not 18:06:23 Slow but usable, since it emulates real hardware 18:06:43 ehird, well I'm pretty sure qemu doesn't emulate the right hardware. Some cirrus graphics card for exampl 18:06:47 example* 18:07:07 ehird, as far as I heard OS X is incredibly picky about hardware? 18:07:48 OSx86 people make drivers. 18:08:03 You could also just install it to another partition 18:08:15 Although it'd have to be like 10 GiB 18:08:22 "meh" 18:08:30 rc=`{echo $rc+1 | bc} 18:08:43 rc's only disadvantage is that saying rc++ is loquacious :P 18:08:43 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:09:19 ehird, what exactly does that code do? 18:09:33 Same as rc=$(echo "$rc"+1 | bc) 18:09:41 in bash 18:10:11 oh something like (( rc++)) then? 18:10:13 ; fn ++ { eval '$'^$1^'=`{echo $'^$1^'+1 | bc}' } 18:10:14 ; rc=3 18:10:14 ; ++ rc 18:10:14 ; echo $rc 18:10:15 3 18:10:15 If only we had something like Tcl's uplevel! XD 18:10:15 or let rc=rc+1 18:10:17 or such 18:10:18 (Warning: Awful hack above) 18:10:26 AnMaster: Yes, it's rc=rc+1 18:10:38 rc is a shell, so you use a calculator command to calculate things. 18:10:50 It's not intended for mathematics-heavy code. 18:11:06 ehird, well right. But most programming languages have some way to increment variables. Even if not for math heavy things 18:11:08 It's very good as a scripting language; in fact, I don't see all that many uses for Python if you have rc. 18:11:11 but, say, loops and such 18:11:20 AnMaster: seq(1) 18:11:30 for(i in `{seq 10}) echo $i 18:11:41 ehird, not standard 18:11:46 not sure if *BSD has it 18:11:51 Everything is standard, it's a fucking shell 18:11:58 The whole point is that you compose together little unixy tools 18:12:00 ehird, I mean seq(1) isn't 18:12:01 ... 18:12:19 The point 18:12:20 (I won't bother putting your head, I'd have to flood empty lines for decades) 18:12:38 but sure, if you have that tool it would work 18:13:00 Yeah and what if you had a Python with all arithmetic capabilities removed?! 18:13:03 IT WOULDN'T WORK THEN 18:13:07 Python is unusable for arithmetic. 18:14:02 ehird, it is? 18:14:10 Well I just proved it didn't I 18:14:23 didn't work with it removed yes 18:14:34 but that isn't what you said in the last line 18:14:35 97% [====================================> ] 11,621,224 18.1K/s eta 19s 18:14:52 AnMaster: And that rc script won't remove if you remove a very useful tool like seq. 18:15:00 It's called "dependencies". 18:15:07 All software has them. 18:15:08 won't remove? won't work you mean? 18:15:16 Typo. 18:15:48 http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/seq.html 18:15:56 plan9port has seq. Depend on that or something. 18:16:05 Anyway such loops are useless generally. 18:16:13 It's very rare that a from i=0 to n can't be rephrased in a better way. 18:17:03 plan9port is where everyone gets their rc anyway, or the fork 9babse 18:17:05 *9base 18:17:11 http://imgur.com/NeGZp.png 18:17:13 STOP SMILING AT ME MACINTOSH 18:17:17 I am not happy with you 18:17:18 I am displeased 18:19:04 ehird, true "for i in foo" is often possible 18:19:15 and when possible, better 18:19:18 Among other constructs. 18:19:24 This is totally irrelevant, you know. 18:19:28 ah interesting. 18:19:33 ehird, did the more recent avernum 3 work? 18:19:40 as in, actually launch? 18:19:43 Is it for OS X? 18:19:54 If not, it will not work. Classic in OS X is dead, no longer supported, end of. 18:20:33 ehird, as far as I understand it, yes. says "Avernum 3 runs natively under Macintosh OS X.". And that the last version no longer supports OS 9 and older 18:20:50 Link. 18:21:08 ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin (the spiderwebsoftware one was the older version) 18:21:09 * ehird compiles the Heirloom Toolchest 18:21:15 .bin? Not OS X. 18:21:19 ehird, welcome to the club 18:21:20 Don't you mean the dmg? 18:21:26 Which club? 18:21:35 ehird, of having Heirloom Toolchest installed 18:21:58 Gee, what a club. Not like you probably use it as your main tools... 18:22:03 Coreutils *spits* 18:22:08 *spits VENOM* 18:22:19 ehird, actually /bin/vi is from heirloom :P 18:22:28 (but I don't use that) 18:22:30 No it's not 18:22:30 It's from nv 18:22:31 nvi 18:22:36 Same person different project 18:22:44 This demo is .bin, it's definitely Classic-only 18:22:49 There's an Avenrum 4 dmg though 18:22:51 *Avernum 18:23:00 ehird, avernum 4 doesn't really interest me. Too modern :/ 18:24:54 ehird, okay so I guess avernum 3 is a lost hope. But blades of avernum seems to have a dmg version too. That should work 18:25:03 link 18:25:08 ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/BladesofAvernumDemo.dmg 18:25:13 will download soon. 18:25:28 cc install_ucb.o -L../libcommon -lcommon -o install_ucb 18:25:28 Undefined symbols: 18:25:28 "_pfmt_label__", referenced from: 18:25:28 _pfmt_label__$non_lazy_ptr in libcommon.a(getopt.o) 18:25:29 ld: symbol(s) not found 18:25:30 Eh 18:25:30 ehird, althrough it says "demo" it is the same as the full one. A bit strange 18:25:43 ehird, no fucking clue. Never hit that. 18:25:50 I would remember 18:26:12 ehird, is this mach-O or ELF? 18:26:30 macho 18:26:34 Heirloom 18:26:36 ah 18:26:44 wouldn't surprise me if it was related to that 18:27:43 ehird, but I wonder what sort of linker trick they are doing to cause that. 18:27:54 None, it's regular code. 18:28:01 Just an undefined symbol. 18:28:20 ehird, what about the $non_lazy_ptr bit? 18:29:03 ehird, and: can you find the definition elsewhere in the code? 18:29:40 Too lazy, already rm -rf'd. 18:29:51 ehird, oh btw did you make -j? 18:29:56 or single thread? 18:30:28 googling suggests there is a pfmt_label.c around 18:30:33 just make 18:30:40 maybe i got configuration wrong blah blah 18:30:43 hm no possible race condition about that then 18:30:49 ehird, maybe. Complex config? 18:31:02 just some make variables, skimmed them 18:31:16 too lazy to care, going to continue fawning over my awesome latex-style syntax 18:32:41 ehird, latex-style syntax for? 18:32:47 shell? 18:33:17 Written-in-rc little web publishing-style system, because I need to get off my arse and publish software ands tuff. 18:33:19 *and stuff 18:33:45 ehird, anything wrong with markdown? 18:33:48 Extensible, so it's sort of like a web framework that also handles navigation and other site-like things for you. 18:33:50 Except much simpler. 18:33:50 (and similar) 18:34:21 AnMaster: Yes; it's kind of ugly, some bits are unintuitive, and fundamentally it fails at being so easy as to not require thinking, but it's "free" enough to require even more thought, as your brain doesn't go into code mode. 18:34:35 Plus, mine is simpler, and handles more advanced structures better. 18:34:38 ehird, iirc there was some sort of "hypercard for the web" software called "livecard" or something like that. Maybe that would work? XD 18:34:42 Lawl. 18:35:27 ehird, http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pinto/hc4.html (search for "How can I get my HyperCard stack on the web") 18:35:42 Thanks but no thanks. 18:39:08 Ha, Model Ms are "technically" 2-key rolloverr 18:39:12 *rollover 18:39:17 Because "ASX" fails 18:39:32 ehird, does ghn work? 18:39:39 Dunno. Most combinations should work. 18:39:47 Without n-key rollover you'll always have edge cases. 18:39:54 ehird, they have the same relative placement though 18:39:59 that was my point 18:40:06 Ah. 18:40:09 That's not how the matrix works. 18:40:10 Hey, the AT Model Fs are N-key rollover. 18:40:28 ehird, I never studied keyboards much, wouldn't know 18:41:40 Keyboards are awesome 18:42:37 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 18:43:35 "This site uses AJAX to generate page content. You need to enable Javascript in your browser and reload the page in order to see it." <-- argh. That is quite horrible. 18:43:50 Which page? 18:43:55 http://alex.csgraf.de/self/?qemu/ 18:44:13 found when reading various stuff about OSx86. 18:44:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:44:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:44:19 linked from virtualbox forum 18:44:27 post from 2007 so could be completely outdated info 18:44:50 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:45:24 "Mac OS X is a really great Operating System. They did a lot of things right, especially in the Interface parts. Sadly it is neither the fastest Operating System, nor the securest out there." 18:45:26 o_x 18:45:28 OpenBSD retard? 18:45:33 OS X is a pretty fucking secure BSD... 18:47:03 http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html seems to be a decent httpd... sure would be nice not to have to write my own :P 18:47:27 ehird, thttpd? 18:47:34 that is about as minimal as you can get 18:48:02 As seen at http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html thttpd is about as scalable than nostromo, and nostromo is about as minimal as thttpd. 18:48:10 Difference is that thttpd is practically unmaintained. 18:48:37 ehird, they didn't test with more than 300 clients? 18:48:43 And a large aspect of thttpd, "It also has one extremely useful feature (URL-traffic-based throttling) that no other server currently has.", is totally useless to me. 18:48:55 AnMaster: running server benchmarks takes a lot of resources, and besides: 18:49:02 apache 1.3.29 18:49:02 Client: resurrection, Sun Ultra 2, SPARC 400MHz, 100Mbit NIC 18:49:03 Server: gollum, Intel, x86 3GHz, 100Mbit NIC 18:49:11 seems pretty old yeah 18:49:19 But you can clearly see from the graph that nostromo scales linearly. 18:49:28 Apart from CGI. 18:49:31 It seems to level off there. 18:49:42 I wonder what caused the spike in http://www.nazgul.ch/images/httperf_small-l.png. 18:49:57 ehird, I suspect nostromo will level off at some point too. Just a hunch. 18:50:10 it does use select() after all. 18:50:16 And? 18:50:33 Of course nothing can scale linearly, don't you know the first thing about computers? Limited resources. 18:50:53 ehird, well yes. But I meant before something using epoll will level off. 18:50:56 just a hunch. 18:50:58 Why? 18:51:02 Because epoll is shiny and new? 18:51:28 ehird, because epoll doesn't need to send the fd list to the kernel every time you want to wait for something to happen 18:52:27 Eh. It doesn't really matter all that much. 18:52:29 with many concurrent clients that might all send you some data soon, this could be an issue. 18:52:45 I mean, CGI will be a bottleneck far before select. 18:53:06 I was just showing that nostromo scales as well as thttpd, which is a good indicator of simplicity and good design. 18:53:17 ehird, iirc http allows you to reuse a connection for several requests? Like fetching images related to the page in the same connection. Might be HTTP/1.1 only or such 18:53:32 Yeah, I don't give a damn about that 18:53:37 If I wrote a server I probably wouldn't support it 18:54:31 ehird, is that allowed by standard? Because if it isn't I'm fairly certain that it might cause problems with modern browsers. At least firefox makes use of it. 18:54:35 and probably other browsers too 18:54:54 Of course if the browser sends Connection: keep-alive or whatever it is but the connection closes anyway it just makes a new connection. 18:55:05 hm true 18:55:07 There are plenty of situations where it doesn't work, I believe. 18:55:12 No biggie. 18:55:18 ehird, anyway. You probably won't need to scale that much in the beginning. If you find out it doesn't scale you could replace it with something else 18:55:29 Of course. 18:55:51 I'm more interested in fast page loads with no-to-little load. 18:56:02 ehird, on the computer? 18:56:08 Over the interwebternets. 18:56:33 -!- augur has joined. 18:56:34 That's the actually applicable situation; of course, I want pages to load very quickly (perfectly possible, e.g. Cherokee achieves this without any tweaking), and I probably won't get many concurrent visitors. 18:56:36 ehird, well, that depends on your page size basically. You probably want to send it compressed 18:56:45 ehird: its actually not that i need a watch, see 18:56:56 Compression is good but there are lots of other things too 18:57:12 my grandmother is insisting on getting me a christmas gift, despite me adamant protests 18:57:28 "despite me adamant protests". Yooth slang! 18:57:31 ("me" for "my") 18:57:35 what augur needs is a watchmaker *ducks* 18:57:44 Some cognitive dissonance as soon as you hit "adamant" 18:57:50 * augur sings 18:57:52 augur: Well make it something useful then 18:57:52 watchmaker watchmaker make meeee a watch 18:57:54 ehird, can Cherokee do "compress and cache" on the fly? Like for *.html, if there is a compressed variant of the file in the cache directory, use it, otherwise compress it and cache it. Oh and re-compress and cache if the html page has been updated. 18:57:59 also, its not actually youth slang 18:58:06 AnMaster: I don't know. 18:58:08 well, for south in the south it might be 18:58:08 I don't know these things. 18:58:12 but 18:58:16 You constantly ask people if things can do things 18:58:18 also, i dont NEED anything, ehird! :| 18:58:19 just because they mentioned the first thing 18:58:23 That's not how knowledge works 18:58:24 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:58:24 stop it 18:58:47 ehird, huh. Sorry. But Imight just add that lighttpd has that feature. Pretty nice. 18:58:50 everybody needs love 18:58:55 I imagine most httpds have it. 18:58:55 still shouldn't be hard to make something similar 18:59:06 Here's an example of a page that loads really quickly: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Front%20Page 18:59:10 ehird, indeed. but this nhttpd looks a bit limited? 18:59:16 (Adjust for distance from the server, of course) 18:59:20 Important things it does: 18:59:32 Only one HTTP request; no or anything 18:59:34 ehird, quite fast yes. Probably not a lot to fetch. Something like html page plus one css? 18:59:36 ah 18:59:39 for cSS 18:59:40 *CSS 18:59:42 and the like 18:59:50 plus very minimalist markup (apart from whitespace) 18:59:53 and I assume gzip compression 18:59:58 plus, a minimalist webserver (Factor's) 19:00:00 and I assume caching 19:00:07 No gzip 19:00:10 minimalist! 19:00:10 :D 19:00:12 I'll probably use a for CSS because I'm lazy, but eh 19:00:17 Deewiant: Damn fast for no gzip 19:00:22 Maybe gzip processing time outweighed it 19:00:26 ehird, there is an advantage of not embedding the css in the page though. And that is if the person looks at more than one of your site's pages. 19:00:34 AnMaster: nhttpd isn't limited, it's just minimalist 19:00:54 lighttpd may look minimalist coming from apache... but that's a seriously skewed comparison 19:01:12 ehird, with separate css file that will be cached. You could also send some cache control headers to not make the browser recheck if the cached copy is up-to-date iirc 19:01:12 nginx is more minimalist than lighttpd by quite an amount and just about as featureful 19:01:18 (and it doesn't leak memory, and it scales better) 19:01:21 (until some time later) 19:01:22 but it still has a lot of needless features 19:01:34 AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though 19:01:41 It's counterintuitive, but requests seem to be very expensive 19:01:42 ehird, I never ran into the memory leak issue 19:01:53 Lighttpd leaks memory like a sieve in many common configurations. 19:02:07 Maybe you haven't run into it but it casts doubt on its engineering. 19:02:29 ehird, indeed it does. Open bug reports? 19:02:43 These issues are very well known, I am certain bug reports exist 19:02:59 They've existed for years, so most people who've heard about them or especially run into them have just abandoned lighttpd 19:03:02 AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though <-- maybe. dropping the whitespace would be a good idea however. 19:03:18 It's because of the templating language, I think 19:03:18 Like 19:03:19
    19:03:21 <% 19:03:23 code blah 19:03:23 %> 19:03:24
19:03:28 and for gzip, well you could make it serve already gziped pages? 19:03:32 You've got the \n and spaces before the <% 19:03:37 ehird, oh you don't plan to pre-generate from static pages? 19:03:40 So that gets added to the output 19:03:47 AnMaster: i'm talking about concatenative.org 19:03:47 to static* 19:03:49 which isn't mine 19:03:52 and it's a dynamic site 19:03:56 so already gzipping isn't ppractical 19:03:58 *practical 19:04:00 ah right 19:04:04 But no, I'm not going to use static pages 19:04:08 oh? 19:04:19 Too much fuss in coding, dynamic pages are simpler to write and let you do fancier stuff 19:04:29 You can do fancier stuff by doing a hybrid static+dynamic system... but dear god no. That's just asking for pain. 19:04:30 anyway you can cache pre-rendered dynamic versions 19:04:33 iirc wikipedia does this 19:04:35 No point. 19:04:44 Fast enough? Then don't add complexity. 19:04:53 Especially dealing with cache invalidation... *shudder* 19:06:20 ehird, only needed on update of page or update of the navigation stuff. And if you only cache the page content (and not the navigation stuff) then it is trivial. 19:07:08 or you could cache them separately like: shared pre-content, page content, shared post-content 19:07:14 This is true if you have simple static content. 19:07:20 But dynamic stuff? 19:07:33 ehird, true. But what exactly do you plan to have on the page? 19:07:36 If you think cache invalidation for dynamic web content is easy... shut up until you actually have to deal with it. 19:07:42 AnMaster: Anything. Extensible, remember>? 19:07:44 *remember? 19:08:05 ehird, hm. Isn't this second system syndrome done already for the first system? 19:08:12 lol, no. 19:08:20 It's extensible in the same way a web framework is. 19:08:23 It's a toolchest. 19:08:50 It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it. 19:09:20 http://werc.cat-v.org/ does this already although the system has some design differences to mine. It's also written in rc. Do you think this extensibility and power necessitates bloat? 19:09:25 ehird, takes time to learn one. Which is why there are so many. It is often easier to make your own than try to learn one someone else wrote 19:09:27 Because werc's core is 150 lines of rc shell. 19:09:49 AnMaster: Irrelevant, almost all the existing frameworks are both bloated, or don't do things they should. 19:10:12 The dichotomy of web framework vs "website hierarchy manager thingybob" is false; the very fact that it's hard to name the second one shows this — it's an integral part. 19:10:34 what the hell would a "website hierarchy manager thingybob" thing be? 19:10:35 But seriously, using werc as an example again, it's basically CGI + some functions + some variables. You don't even have to write the apps in rc. 19:10:46 as in, example of such 19:10:48 AnMaster: I explained before, try keeping a backlog in your mind because you're discarding every line by the next one. 19:11:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:11:10 ehird, do you mean like werc? or does that fit in the former? 19:11:22 [19:08] ehird: It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it. 19:11:34 That's (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework). 19:11:35 so the former then 19:11:42 No, werc is a (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework). 19:11:57 ehird, oh so the latter isn't a subset of the former? 19:12:00 right 19:12:05 There aren't really any standalone website hierarchy manager thingybobs. Some CMSs are similar, but they're really shit.. 19:12:07 *shit. 19:12:18 The two things naturally belong together, and having them be the same thing makes both simpler. 19:12:35 ehird, anyway you plan to do cgi? *shudder* 19:12:53 If you complain about CGI you must complain about FastCGI, which is just CGI with a server layer and some extra crazy crap. 19:13:11 ehird, depends on the reason for complaining about cgi. 19:13:14 there are two 19:13:23 Go on, I'm up for rebutting. 19:13:25 one is performance. FastCGI is somewhat better when it comes to that. 19:13:42 the second is that it is rather ugly to code in, when it comes to this FastCGI is definitely even worse 19:13:43 Irrelevant. The overhead Apache and other shit servers add far outweighs a simple server with CGI. 19:13:53 ehird, I didn't say apache 19:13:58 It is quite ugly to code in directly, which is the whole reason I'm writing my thingy. 19:14:00 AnMaster: Even lighttpd. 19:14:10 ehird, doesn't ngnix support fastcgi? 19:14:17 iirc 19:14:28 Yes, and no CGI. http://suckless.org/ uses a CGI-wrapping fastcgi to run werc on nginx, heh. 19:14:46 As I said, even nginx has needless features. A FastCGI-like thing is of course needed if you have a very popular website. 19:14:56 ehird, anyway there is a solution. And that is to integrate the dynamic pages more tightly with the web server. Like yaws. 19:15:03 I'd suggest SCGI; it's a very light protocol and no FastCGI-like cruft. 19:15:07 however you would hate yaws 19:15:09 There is no solution needed. 19:15:11 It is in search of a problem. 19:15:23 It found one: "CGI is slow on most web servers". 19:15:28 But the problem there is most web servers... 19:15:30 ehird, SCGI is pretty nice yes. 19:15:43 The problem it should try to find is "really popular sites fail with CGI even on minimalist web servers". 19:15:58 But that's niche, and solutions searching for problems seem to try and find the most general one they can. 19:16:19 ehird, you'll say google would use CGI next :P 19:16:32 Google isn't really popular? 19:16:33 oh wait 19:16:36 they are that niche 19:16:37 right 19:16:48 Part of it, at least. 19:16:50 that and two other people 19:16:57 (or something like that) 19:18:12 ehird, well I can think of some more: twitter, youtube (except google bought them some time ago), possibly sites like last.fm and such. Not sure about slashdot (from what I remember they use something horrible java based crap) 19:18:18 s/something/some/ 19:18:29 Slashdot is horrific, horrific Perl code that requires root and shits all over your system. 19:18:30 (Slashcode) 19:18:34 oh perl it was 19:18:40 was it sf.net that used java? 19:20:08 Yes. 19:20:29 right. 19:20:39 ehird, anyway probably sites like reddit too? 19:20:43 would be in that niche 19:20:48 Yep. 19:20:50 * ehird gives an example http response from his httpd if he'd write one to see how anmaster reacts 19:20:50 HTTP/1.1 200 19:20:50 content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 19:20:51 19:20:51 ...content... 19:21:22 Compare with w3.org, one of the *lighter* sites header-wise... http://pastie.org/689155.txt?key=v492i5n9ybfvshobv4iwa 19:21:24 ehird, pretty sure there should be one or two more headers there. Anyway what about virtual hosts? 19:21:38 Especially providing the "human-readable" thing like 19:21:43 HTTP/1.1 403 Permission Denied 19:21:45 ehird, don't you need "Content-Length: 29707"? 19:21:46 is pointless 19:21:49 HTTP/1.1 403 19:21:51 works just the same 19:21:58 AnMaster: Nope 19:22:03 That's just for static files 19:22:06 to give their length 19:22:09 I'd probably include it though 19:22:14 ehird, that would require people to check. Unless you provide an error page as well 19:22:26 Um, people don't see the http headers. 19:22:32 And anyone who does know what the code means. 19:22:35 *knows 19:22:37 ehird, oh and wget -c will fail with your web server 19:22:47 HTTP/1.1 200 19:22:47 content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 19:22:48 content-length: 6345 19:22:49 then 19:22:49 to resume downloads that broke down in the middle 19:22:51 because 19:22:55 Accept-Ranges: bytes 19:22:55 AnMaster: No it won't. 19:22:56 is missing 19:23:01 ehird, pretty sure it will 19:23:05 if you can't resume from the middle 19:23:16 -c will try and resume in the request, and the server will comply. 19:23:18 Presumably. 19:23:29 Unless it makes a dummy request to see if it's supported before trying, which is retarded. 19:23:33 If it does, then, fine: 19:23:43 ehird, well okay, I guess you could accept it without telling anyone you did 19:23:51 HTTP/1.1 200 19:23:52 content-type: xxx/warez-porn 19:23:52 content-length: 6345 19:23:52 accept-ranges: bytes 19:24:08 Maybe an etag: header for caching. 19:24:10 ehird, I was more thinking this would be useful for install iso's for your distro 19:24:27 ehird, no server tag to tell what server? 19:24:29 The main thing is that pointless headers like Server: need to go, the pointless capitalisation needs to go, and the pointless response code names need to go 19:24:30 okay 19:24:41 No reason to lengthen every request with trivia 19:24:43 ehird, is the standard case insensitive? 19:24:46 Sites that want you to know will tell you anyway 19:24:47 Yes 19:25:02 ehird, what do you have against the capitalisation though 19:25:08 Pointless 19:25:09 it doesn't matter either way in load 19:25:20 We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward 19:25:22 wouldn't surprise me if it broke some clients 19:25:26 And headers are just an associative array 19:25:27 AnMaster: It doesn't. 19:25:35 And besides, it means that it's simpler to collapse duplicate headers. 19:25:37 We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward <-- we do? Well depends on language 19:25:42 You don't need to handle capitalisation, just lowercase everything 19:25:48 AnMaster: I do, at least. 19:26:06 ehird, some languages have foo = atom Foo = variable or similar 19:26:09 erlang for example 19:26:11 Sure. 19:26:13 Whatever. 19:26:22 Anyway, I guess I have to write this server now. 19:26:23 ehird, but in C I would use lower_case_with_underscore 19:26:30 I bet I can beat most other server's performance. 19:26:34 With less code, too. 19:26:39 Like, say.... 500 SLOC? 19:26:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:26:48 I need to brb now for about 15 minutes, then I guess I'll start. 19:26:51 ehird, probably for small loads. Not sure with 5000 concurrent clients :P 19:26:52 *guess I'll 19:26:57 AnMaster: Yes with 5,000 concurrent clients. 19:27:02 Even 10k; C10k was a decade ago. 19:27:14 ehird, C10k? 19:27:22 and sure you could make it. But so can other servers 19:33:57 oh that c10k 19:33:59 right 19:39:29 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:39:56 ehird, why not just use that factor thing that you said was so fast? 20:01:05 back 20:01:19 AnMaster: various reasons. the sever itself isn't _that_ fast anyway 20:01:25 also, sure, but most servers don't 20:01:28 because they're shit. 20:02:22 also, sure, but most servers don't <-- don't what? 20:02:38 do C10k 20:03:03 ehird, pretty sure lighttpd does for example. nginx probably does too? 20:03:14 Um ... no. 20:03:26 ehird, no about which one? 20:03:41 Just no. 20:03:46 At least not without some SERIOUS hardware. 20:03:55 -!- fax has joined. 20:03:59 And computers are big, too. You can buy a 1000MHz machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM and an 1000Mbit/sec Ethernet card for $1200 or so. Let's see - at 20000 clients, that's 50KHz, 100Kbytes, and 50Kbits/sec per client. It shouldn't take any more horsepower than that to take four kilobytes from the disk and send them to the network once a second for each of twenty thousand clients 20:04:15 C10k means you can do it on a single-core 1 GHz machine with 2 GiB of RAM and a 1 Gb/s Ethernet card. 20:04:16 ehird, what about cheroke or such? 20:04:25 Cherokee is very ununixy. 20:04:38 ehird, sure. but does it do c10k? 20:05:15 Remember what I said about asking people such things just because they mentioned the name of a thing...? 20:05:21 I don't know. 20:05:37 ehird, you seemed to know about lighttpd and nginx? 20:05:55 I'm almost certain lighttpd and nginx can't do it on such specs. 20:06:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 20:06:12 "(Another book which might be more helpful for those who are *using* rather than *writing* a web server is Building Scalable Web Sites by Cal Henderson.)" 20:06:13 Hey, C10K mentions our own iamcal. 20:06:17 Okay, so not technically our own. 20:06:39 O'Reilly published too. Swanky. 20:08:49 ehird, actually: 20:08:49 Okay, so, basic architecture: epoll(), probably fork(), pass over to handler. Have helper functions for headers and stuff. 20:09:12 "[lighttpd] was originally written [...] as a proof-of-concept of the c10k problem (how to handle 10000 connections in parallel on one server),[1] but now has substantial worldwide popularity [...]" 20:09:14 from wikipedia 20:09:23 That doesn't mean it met it. 20:09:27 ehird, true 20:09:35 ehird, so you are saying it didn't? 20:09:43 It may well have. 20:09:44 http://www.fefe.de/fnord/2.5.50-scalability.png 20:09:55 Linux 2.5.50 (old! but similar to 2.6) scalability of web servers. 20:10:04 By doing C10k I mean doing it gracefully, naturally. 20:10:12 Taking 30 seconds to load a page isn't acceptable. 20:10:55 If that's really usec, that Y axis only goes up to 60 milliseconds, which I guess is still pretty reasonable latency. 20:11:02 Yes. 20:11:06 Excellent scalability from both thttpd and fnord. fnord clearly wins though. 20:11:08 ehird, of course. but taking twice the time as usual could be (if "usual" is tiny). Say 0.2 seconds instead of 0.1 (unreasonable example figures, just an example) 20:11:26 Something like 0.3 ms nearing C10k from fnord. 20:11:29 Very good latency. 20:11:36 ehird, why does the bar for fnord end early there? 20:11:43 well bar almost 20:11:48 "The fnord plot ends at 8000 connections because I couldn't open more connections before fnord kept timing out the old ones" 20:11:52 lulz 20:11:59 ehird, so it doesn't really scale that well 20:12:00 :P 20:12:02 (From the author of fnord; strikingly honest) 20:12:08 Sure it does 20:12:14 It just times out like most servers 20:12:16 ehird, not *past* 8000 20:12:22 You misunderstand the quote 20:12:28 ehird, hm. But thttpd didn't? 20:12:47 Presumably because it doesn't do timeouts. 20:12:51 Or because the timeout was set really high. 20:12:57 could be 20:13:08 It's a hardware limitation. 20:13:18 anyway why is there so little "noise" in the the fnord plot? 20:13:20 Fnord is clearly more scalable on given hardware because the latency increases much more slowly. 20:13:21 compared to the other ones 20:13:22 *the latency 20:13:26 AnMaster: Good engineering.. 20:13:28 *engineering. 20:13:37 "CGI (through pipes, not temp files like Apache)" 20:13:37 APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_< 20:13:39 ehird, does it run in kernel space or user space? 20:13:45 Userspace, of course... 20:13:59 ehird, APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_< <-- I would be surprised if it does any more in that case! 20:14:23 like, it would break if you were producing a large file dynamically for download 20:14:54 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:15:08 "thttpd is the fastest web server known to me." says fnord's author 20:15:18 but fnord clearly scales better 20:15:37 Hmm, fnord fork()s for every request, seems like that's a good architecture 20:15:42 It's unixy, so I should have guessed 20:16:34 ehird, would work on linux due to cheap fork() (mostly due to COW, but also pretty fast in other areas) 20:16:44 BSDs too. 20:16:45 but still, I'm surprised 20:16:54 Threading servers have the same latency of fork() on Linux of course. 20:16:58 More or less. 20:17:08 Latency, I mean overhead 20:17:10 You know what I mean 20:17:24 And event-based? 20:17:28 AAH, THE CODE! 20:17:28 ehird, potentially less on some bsds. m:n threads there. Though iirc freebsd at least switched to 1:1 since then 20:17:32 IT IS NOT MEANT FOR ANY MORTAL! 20:17:36 ehird, oh? 20:17:46 ehird, link to a file from it? 20:17:56 Event-based servers and async IO and all that stuff... with a language not designed for that sort of thing? 20:17:59 (so I can just open it directly in an editor) 20:18:04 Just don't even go there. 20:18:07 ehird, so AIO in C? 20:18:07 AnMaster: No particular server. 20:18:23 AIO and event-based servers may be faster than fork()ing servers... but it's not worth the payoff. 20:18:45 oh I thought you mean fnord code XD 20:19:05 ehird, anyway I have done event based IO in C. Worked on ircds after all. 20:19:29 (that isn't AIO though, just non-blocking) 20:19:38 I'm skeptical of the common acceptance of asynchronous IO as the only way to do an ircd. 20:19:39 (have done AIO elsewhere too) 20:19:43 fork() is really cheap. 20:19:49 ehird, well you need IPC then 20:19:54 or channels won't work 20:20:05 Yeah it's called FIFO files... or a Unix socket 20:20:14 ehird, I think that is the main reason why you want one thread. Because they need to talk to each other a lot. In various directions 20:20:27 AnMaster: Sounds like an excuse for spaghetti code 20:20:28 like lots of channels and /msg out of nowhere 20:20:37 ehird, how so? 20:20:38 "Oh, but I'd have to write so much code that makes explicit the communication!" 20:20:41 That's a good thing. 20:21:35 ehird, anyway, an ircd is supposed to handle thousands of clients per server. Plus routing for lots more (multiple linked servers after all) 20:21:43 And? 20:21:56 ehird, you will need to handle "send to other server" in some other way than a pipe per channel or such. 20:22:02 If a fork()ing webserver can handle 8,000 clients at once in the era of Linux 2.5... 20:22:13 Then a fork()ing ircd can handle many more today. 20:22:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:22:26 ehird, webservers doesn't do a lot of IPC. Probably none or close to none 20:22:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:22:41 AnMaster: IPC can be fast, I'm sure. 20:22:46 It'd be ridiculous if it couldn't be. 20:23:45 ehird, sure. Go ahead and write an ircd using pipes. and that supports linking to other servers. and scales to 5000 active clients per server or so. 20:23:59 Maybe I will. 20:24:13 and huge channels. Last I looked #ubuntu had over 1000 people in it. 20:24:26 that was the day karmic was released though 20:24:30 Server-to-server communication would be easy, at least... since you'd already have the infrastructure. 20:24:34 1000 people is peanuts. 20:24:42 #gentoo is generally around 900-950 20:24:44 We have computers with massive power nowadays... and fork() is really cheap. 20:24:54 It tingles my skeptic nerve to assert that this is a challenge. 20:26:25 -!- Slereah has quit. 20:26:29 ehird, oh and really you shouldn't compare to the freenode ircd when it comes to performance. That isn't like comparing to apache. It's like comparing to that "personal web sharing" thing mac os 9 had. Or to that down sized ISS thing for windows 9x 20:26:38 Did I say I'd compare to it? 20:26:47 ehird, just warning you ahead of time 20:26:48 1100ish right now 20:26:56 coppro, in #ubuntu? 20:26:59 Also, hey, OS X has Personal Web Sharing too. It's Apache :P 20:26:59 yeah 20:27:09 ehird, it wasn't apache in OS 9 20:27:13 I'm joking 20:27:17 Holy shit, Synchronet is still developed 20:27:22 Synchronet? 20:27:37 huh seems to be a BBS? 20:27:41 Weird old BBS software 20:27:54 hrm.. alis says 1708 20:27:55 Nowadays runs on Windows with lots of Javascript for some reason 20:27:57 ehird, why did you even check on that 20:28:07 but I only saw 1100 when I went in 20:28:12 AnMaster: Its ircd was mentioned in the Wikipedia list of ircds 20:28:15 coppro, how strange 20:28:23 coppro, maybe alis caches? 20:28:25 coppro: they're invisible 20:28:27 LITERALLY 20:28:29 yeah, I guess 20:28:35 so it is only updated every n