< 1258329740 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zile vs. full Emacs, why bother with something less than the real thing? 'cause it's "good enough" for some cases < 1258329857 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also use an old 8086 grep ("xgrep") that's only 3k, not as good as GNU grep but gets the job done ;-) < 1258329858 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258329879 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1258330072 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although ZILE comparison isn't fair, it's a lot harder to build than standard Emacs) < 1258330108 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1258330338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258330453 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gxis revido" < 1258330581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet, go was ported to bsd by an outsider < 1258330582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 4 days. < 1258330594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(freebsd) < 1258330597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all tests pass < 1258330615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4990 lines of code changed < 1258330829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4990?! < 1258330872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golang.pastebin.com/d39006986 < 1258330875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the files changed/modified < 1258330898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he had to do runtime, syscall stuff, os-specific files for the stdlib, and change some misc stuff < 1258330909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if he did it in 4 days that's great < 1258330912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :means that porting should be easy < 1258330919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, os at least; who knows about arch/binary format < 1258330932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's only freebsd/amd64 too, but eh) < 1258330934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4 days!!) < 1258331248 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258332547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Ruby code generates Python code, which generates Perl code, which generates Lua code, which generates OCaml code, which generates Haskell code, which generates C code, which generates Java code, which generates Brainfuck code, which generates Whitespace code, which generates Unlambda code, which generates the original Ruby code again. < 1258332555 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1258332734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: The Ruby code generates Python code, which generates Perl code, which generates Lua code, which generates OCaml code, which generates Haskell code, which generates C code, which generates Java code, which generates Brainfuck code, which generates Whitespace code, which generates Unlambda code, which generates the original Ruby code again. < 1258333617 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no go? < 1258333633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1258333634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mine < 1258333639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a4j4a/whats_the_best_most_interesting_piece_of_code/c0ftftg < 1258333640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behold! < 1258333739 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1258333746 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cüül < 1258335302 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258335888 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-142-102.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1258335925 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258337961 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1258338122 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-118-130-205.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258338446 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey ehird, are you around? I could use your expertise, perhaps. < 1258338485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258338488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you ignoring me? < 1258338503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo You may be ignoring me, but yes. < 1258338503 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may be ignoring me, but yes. You may be ignoring me, but yes. < 1258338540 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not ignoring you as of the moment. < 1258338548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shoot. < 1258338601 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, suppose I want to write a program that, at arbitrary times, stores data meant to persist indefinitely. < 1258338638 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like new users' usernames. < 1258338663 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What storage method should I use? < 1258339167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: Filesystem. < 1258339228 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, you didn't say "database". < 1258339270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: New users' usernames, btw? Do you just mean a list of all usernames? < 1258339301 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, presumably, not just their usernames but stuff like password hashes and other stuff. < 1258339324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: Look at /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow (or is it /etc/shadw? I forget). < 1258339329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, mostly just /etc/password. < 1258339333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just do something similar. < 1258339337 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've seen /etc/passwd. < 1258339347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have username/password/email and you know : is in none of them, just append < 1258339350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :username:hash:email < 1258339361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, make sure to do passwords with < 1258339366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bcrypt.sourceforge.net/ < 1258339374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong one < 1258339381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mindrot.org/projects/py-bcrypt/ < 1258339383 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that better than whatever I happen to be thinking of at the moment? < 1258339385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and store the salt, so that it's username:hash:salt:email < 1258339387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: Yes. < 1258339394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very secure and easy to use. < 1258339455 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is this Blowfish stuff better than SHA-2? < 1258339476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it iterates and salts for you < 1258339489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is important shit, cryptography is really hard, and this way it does passwords very securely and simply for you < 1258339499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blowfish comes courtesy of OpenBSD. < 1258339508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should tell you all you need to know about it. :P < 1258339518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't, OpenBSD's password scheme based on Blowfish does though < 1258339523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blowfish comes courtesy of Schneier. < 1258339527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Oh, really? < 1258339528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1258339535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is even more of an endorsement. < 1258339546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1258339640 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do feel like something I create by my own understanding of password hashing would be more reliable than some thing a certain person points me to. < 1258339663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make your own, you *will* be insecure. < 1258339673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cryptography is really fucking hard. < 1258339692 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm not going to make my own hash function or anything. < 1258339697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a decade or two to learn it before just "creating your own". < 1258339728 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creating cryptographic primitives = no. Combining them = maybe? < 1258339774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combining them = foolish. Worst case scenario, you make the whole thing less secure. Best case scenario, you have accomplished nothing. < 1258339828 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean combining them into new cryptographic primitives. < 1258339841 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless password hashing code is a type of cryptographic primitive. < 1258339903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Password hashing is harder than you think. < 1258339908 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here: "To set the password, receive the new password, generate a random number, store the random number, prepend the random number to the password, hash that, and store that. To check a password, prepend the random number to it, hash it, and see if it matches the stored hash." < 1258339922 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that sort of thing okay? < 1258339941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That specific thing is called a "salted hash". And that is exactly what you should do. < 1258340054 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders whether he's satisfied his urge to prove himself worthy.
< 1258340138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use a rather large salt, BTW -- each additional bit of salt makes the size of the hypothetical hashing dictionary double. < 1258340166 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1258340186 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine 128 bits would be plenty, and 512 bits would also be plenty. And I like the number 512. < 1258340359 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This bcrypt thing looks like it is combining cryptographic primitives to make new cryptographic primitives. Blowfish is a block cipher, not a hash function. < 1258340409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a well-known way of turning block ciphers into hash functions. < 1258340470 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly true. < 1258340479 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why they don't just use a hash function directly. < 1258340648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use the salt to encode some other data, and make hashes unique to each user < 1258340686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal < 1258340691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :py-bcrypt can generate the salt for you < 1258340698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason is for rainbow tables < 1258340724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :salts make rainbow tables nearly useless if used correctly < 1258340766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use py-bcrypts example < 1258340784 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders decision paralysis.
< 1258340827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just do py-bcrypt. You fail at cryptography forever, like 99% of people. < 1258340829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, salts aren't fundamentally more secure than a long password < 1258340846 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a lot easier to remember < 1258340852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't give him ideas < 1258340855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1258340858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail at knowing what a hashed salt is < 1258340866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the password hasher generates a random salt < 1258340869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258340871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cats it with the passwd < 1258340873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stores it separately < 1258340878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about what the user does < 1258340885 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yer, salts are potentially fundamentally more secure. < 1258340890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No they aren't < 1258340892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use py-bcrypt, seriously < 1258340893 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Databases can get leaked. < 1258340894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it < 1258340903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case they get the salt too < 1258340921 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a complex password is leaked, its complexity doesn't help. If a hash and a salt are leaked... well, it'll at least take a while for them to find the password. < 1258340939 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's the same < 1258340951 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, are you saying that given a hash and salt, it's trivial to find the password? < 1258340952 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, easier with the salt < 1258340954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258340986 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have a hash and a salt, how does that help me to log in as you? < 1258340987 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that given, say, a 64-bit password and a 64-bit salt, you have no more security than a 128-bit password < 1258341032 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how. < 1258341050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way, you're looking for a 128-bit set of data that produces a given value < 1258341085 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a password is leaked, I'm looking for no data. If that hash and salt are leaked, I'm looking for 64 bits of data. < 1258341096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would the password be leaked? < 1258341103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sane systems store a hash of the password < 1258341117 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: there are plenty of insane ones out there) < 1258341136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that a hashed password and a hashed, salted password are equally effective fundamentally < 1258341145 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I think I'm failing to see that you're talking about a hash versus a salted hash, rather than a clear password versus a salted hash. < 1258341154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think so < 1258341186 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, when storing a large collection of data, salts do have the advantage that a given cleartext won't get the same ciphertext with different salts < 1258341198 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effectively, a salt is an extension of the password that the server keeps track of and doesn't ask for. < 1258341204 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1258341230 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a bit like a method of making a password easier to remember. < 1258341246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1258341259 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my "advantage" I just mentioned is really just a function of length again < 1258341277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for security < 1258341348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just so people get the security of having aldsj2ou43as;kdjAWE!(*IU%@K!J$%>!@<#M$LK@!(U#$ (@#OI!JUORJQ < 1258341357 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a password, without needing to remember it < 1258341396 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not *all* of the security of having that as a password. < 1258341425 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, having a 0-bit password and making up for it by having a 128-bit hash would be absurd. < 1258341440 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/hash/salt/ < 1258341463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1258341468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: well, yeah < 1258341483 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order for that to be secure, logging in would have to be impossible. < 1258341486 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258341500 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258341524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also note that the argument about a salt being stored separately from the password for security holds no water; it's no more additionally secure than any other system where the components are held in different locations < 1258341546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. where a random string is XORed with the password pre-hashing < 1258341610 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258341629 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, Remembrane. < 1258341647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103681 <-- if I owned one of these, it would be a GRegor. < 1258342514 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I guess that my chief subgoal in doing this project should be to do it badly. < 1258342535 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a salted-hash scheme I come up with myself is a perfect example of what I ought to do. < 1258343126 0 :Oranjer!i=6247146f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ncrlhnlajhcxqxkh JOIN :#esoteric < 1258343131 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhhh < 1258343368 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Oranjer entered the channel of Esoteric, on the network of freenode; and he was enlightened. < 1258343381 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, I guess < 1258343392 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, my laptop broke < 1258343398 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no access to anything anywhere < 1258343583 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1258343635 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww < 1258343690 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything happening over here? < 1258343919 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We seem to be kind of talking about how to make a program. < 1258343926 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, one where people can log in. < 1258343937 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1258343942 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it? < 1258344162 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ehird was advising me that it would be unwise to write my own salted hash scheme. < 1258344174 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :salted..hash...uh, okay < 1258344679 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, for the record, I have been without access to a computer for the last two weeks < 1258344856 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1258345296 0 :lifthrasiir!i=xy6lzx07@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258347753 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1258349929 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... does anyone know of any languages with syntax that allows a loop to have a condition checked in the middle of the loop with no typing repition? < 1258349972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. rather than getInput(); while(checkInput()) { useInput(); getInput(); } or while (true) { getInput(); if (!checkInput()) break; useInput(); } < 1258349998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/repition/repitition/ < 1258351046 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your second example has no repetition of more than one character (except for "Input", "()", "; ") < 1258351063 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without any repetition it's hard to get a source file of more than 256 bytes :) < 1258351073 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except with unicode of course < 1258351096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: but then the loop reads wonky < 1258351103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the condition is not really a part of the loop < 1258351117 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be looking for something like do { } while () { }; < 1258351128 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even wonkier... < 1258351147 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do {getInput();} while(checkInput()) {useInput();} < 1258351147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: sure, but then it's clear you have part of the loop condition there < 1258351158 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not clear where the loop actually is < 1258351163 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1258351163 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about scope? < 1258351172 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I'm asking if people have syntaxes for that < 1258351182 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do {int a = 2; } while(1 != 2) {a ++;} <-- error: undefined variable a < 1258351218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a brackets-mandatory language like Perl, you could have while as a statement be syntactic sugar for if (!condition) break; < 1258351358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :midWhile x y z = do x' <- x;if y then z x' >> midWhile x y z else return () -- There. I defined one for Haskell. Happy? < 1258351384 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no < 1258351420 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what does the >> do? < 1258351491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc do {statement1 case statement2} { uplevel 1 [list while 1 [list $statement1 \; if [list ! $case] break \; statement2 ]] } ;# There. I defined one for Tcl. Happy? < 1258351517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: once again, no < 1258351518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: x >> y = x >>= \_ -> y < 1258351535 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have no clue what that means :/ < 1258351558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is that just doing one thing after another? < 1258351568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258351572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1258351575 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have said that < 1258351576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And throwing away the result of the first. < 1258351589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that Tcl code is used as follows: do {getInput} {checkInput} {useInput}. < 1258351734 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens for: do {getInput} {} {useInput} < 1258351757 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i suppose there's no point considering it < 1258351760 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an error anyway < 1258351765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: Impossible in Tcl. < 1258351799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The closest you can get is returning the empty string. < 1258352832 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I still awake? < 1258353006 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's tuesday tomorrow? < 1258354041 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must... stop.. posting.. passwords.. publically < 1258354075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: it's Monday tomorrow! < 1258354093 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[19:29] === CTCP time reply “Mon Nov 16 01:29:45” from Sgeo_ < 1258354101 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not where sgeo_ lives < 1258354111 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here it's tuesday tomorrow < 1258354134 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 12 minutes it will be Tuesday tomorrow! < 1258354139 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loved the "SgeoPPW" password
< 1258354144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:29:45? That's not late at all. < 1258354146 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw, it's changed, so...) < 1258354158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... says the guy who needs to be up by noon. :P) < 1258354220 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:50:08 now, sgeo_ < 1258354231 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what time it is < 1258354243 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus double whatever the ping time is from my pc to yours, plus my reaction and typing time < 1258355520 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258356055 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258356146 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258358055 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1258358399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1258358301 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258358301 0 :clog_!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1258358399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1258358400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258358529 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]" < 1258359470 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258362425 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258362654 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258362843 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258363385 0 :fax!n=v@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1258363809 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :facsimile < 1258364045 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1258364838 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258358400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258365844 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1258365845 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1258365849 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258366576 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258367022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1258367271 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258368844 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"quit" < 1258371056 0 :facsimile!n=v@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1258371312 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258371312 0 :clog_!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1258371887 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258372121 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258372187 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258372187 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1258373702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1258373707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1258373711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wow at clog < 1258373714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't have time for the ick port for a few days < 1258373714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it could do that < 1258373717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ok < 1258373726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some university stuff. < 1258373772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still maybe I should send a patch of what I got. Did you integrate that first patch already? Because I rearranged things a bit (to work better in some ways) < 1258373779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't < 1258373781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is the autotools check < 1258373785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saved it, but haven't tried to integrate it < 1258373799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm should try to pick out the non-mac specific parts < 1258373803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it is ready < 1258373805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely, I'll look at your patches then try to create one myself that's properly integrated based on yours, and send it back to you for testing < 1258373809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is split in two < 1258373824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can't really do that for the mac specific stuff though < 1258373840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway this ICK_PATHSEP, where would it be defined? < 1258373844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :config.h or elsewhere? < 1258373846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: config.h < 1258373854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... as long as there's an autoconf macro for that < 1258373856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no clue how to add THAT to autotools < 1258373857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there isn't, I'll write one < 1258373861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should only be a line or so < 1258373868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could check on: < 1258373874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if defined(macintosh) < 1258373881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#elif defined(__WIN32__) < 1258373883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#else < 1258373885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1258373886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1258373904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I know that works. I probably missed something (what about 64-bit windows?) < 1258373930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw how do you update bconfig.in? < 1258373940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, autoreconf in the top dir doesn't < 1258373944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: look at buildaux/bconfig.ac < 1258373953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, if you've done autoreconf in the top dir < 1258373955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then make should update it < 1258373968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no such file or directory < 1258373978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buildconfig.ac? < 1258373991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, buildaux/buildconfig.ac < 1258374014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you don't even need the autoreconf unless you're upgrading to a newer version of autoconf than the one that was used to generate configure < 1258374020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I did autoreconf in top dir, and no it wasn't updated < 1258374038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I had to do that, due to having a different autoconf and automake version < 1258374039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: autoreconf updates configure and Makefile.in, such that the makefile updates everything eles < 1258374040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*else < 1258374051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does that apply to out of tree builds too? < 1258374066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1258374072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for native builds? < 1258374074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of tree builds will update the build system in-tree if it needs updating < 1258374078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for native or cross < 1258374084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it didn't work then < 1258374088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell < 1258374108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you need to run make < 1258374111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the autoreconf < 1258374114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make updates the buildsystem < 1258374119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I did that < 1258374132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and buildconfig should have updated accordingly < 1258374175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, further: bconfigh.in and bconfig.h doesn't match. As in bconfig.h contains lines that src/bconfigh.in doesn't < 1258374187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like HAVE_VSNPRINTF < 1258374196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configh.in matches better < 1258374219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if bconfigh.in is getting updated? < 1258374222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buildconfig itself is < 1258374233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact as far as I can tell my bconfig.h was based on configh.in and not bconfigh.in < 1258374242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1258374244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even says so < 1258374248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the top of the file < 1258374252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258374257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know what's caused that < 1258374259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1258374261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because you aren't cross-compiling < 1258374267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so config.h and bconfig.h are the same < 1258374273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to avoid running configure twice, it just copies it across < 1258374282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes of course. But I would need things to update when I do changes to things < 1258374301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everything in buildconfig.ac should also be in configure.ac < 1258374315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, plus I doubt there is any modern compiler that can corss compile to classic mac os < 1258374328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at apple headers it seems some versions of egcs could < 1258374333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in that case you're native compiling on mac os < 1258374338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and config.h and bconfig.h can be the same < 1258374340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and should be < 1258374359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also some of those defines. I'm a bit unclear on how to test them: < 1258374370 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-164-32-141.range86-164.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258374378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones? < 1258374382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Define to 1 if you have the ANSI C header files. */ < 1258374382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define STDC_HEADERS 1 < 1258374383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one < 1258374398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it has them, but what exactly does it test for < 1258374408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it doesn't verify *every* header < 1258374416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for strict conformance to ANSI C < 1258374447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it runs a test program designed to break badly in non-ANSI < 1258374469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, depends on in which way it isn't ANSI. Missing some specific header but otherwise ANSI? < 1258374473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-prototypes? < 1258374488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also: < 1258374491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Define to empty if `const' does not conform to ANSI C. */ < 1258374491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* #undef const */ < 1258374496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conform in what way? < 1258374523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finally (did I mention this already?): < 1258374528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Define to `unsigned int' if does not define. */ < 1258374529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* #undef size_t */ < 1258374534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't define this < 1258374541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I get size_t from stdlib.h and such < 1258374544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's looking for memchr in string.h, free in stdlib.h, and a sane islower < 1258374549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is no sys/types.h < 1258374561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooh, that's an interesting comment < 1258374578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think probably leaving that as undef is correct, ignoring the details of the comment (the comments are automatically generated) < 1258374604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well basically, stddef.h stdlib.h stdio.h and so all include some internal SizeTDef.h (I think that was the name in MPW) which defines it < 1258374620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave it as undef, then < 1258374622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I get compiler error if defining that in config.h < 1258374643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, apart from const there is also a similar one for volatile < 1258374658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again I have no clue, but I simply guess that they work < 1258374663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :const and volatile should only be compiled to the null string if they're completely broken < 1258374674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, define completely broken < 1258374688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also not null string, that wouldn't work < 1258374690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :null comment < 1258374691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would < 1258374696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1258374701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean will null string < 1258374703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""? < 1258374707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, nothing < 1258374710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"" is two double quotes < 1258374714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, as in #define volatile < 1258374731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, another thing was that I had to define YY_NO_UNISTD_H=1 < 1258374735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on command line < 1258374737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make things work < 1258374740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1258374743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and completely broken means that volatile int x; int * volatile y = (int* 0); return !x && !y; causes the compiler to error out < 1258374744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still wanted isatty < 1258374751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "work" is stretching it < 1258374759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the macro for isatty didn't work < 1258374761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1258374768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just before the function using it < 1258374769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an < 1258374774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"extern int isatty(int); < 1258374778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^"// < 1258374785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to define a function for it < 1258374791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258374809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which means fileno will get called. It seems macs *do* happen to have fileno < 1258374826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fileno is not ANSI C < 1258374828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is posix < 1258374834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1258374841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should have a test for fileno too in config.h, then < 1258374855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no system to verify that on, it is lacking it < 1258374863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh on macs fileno() is a macro < 1258374864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a header < 1258374866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a function < 1258374874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just something like: < 1258374895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define fileno(_f) ((_f)->fileno) < 1258374901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forgot exact wording) < 1258374922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless you explicitly requests a thread safe version, in which case it is a function < 1258374943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should still be checkable < 1258374988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function one is in some non-standard library btw. Not that configure runs on old macs < 1258375153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes -s to apt-get doesn't work with "update"
< 1258375164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's silently ignored) < 1258375228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying thing about sheepshaver: it needs sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr=0 < 1258375328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think autoconf even attempts to support Mac OS 9 < 1258375349 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258375366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, true. Still, the system headers even have #ifdefs to detect "Visual C++ for NT targeting Macintosh" < 1258375375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, those included with MPW < 1258375396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and egcs both running ported to an MPW tool and running on linux but cross compiling < 1258375465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I need some help with makefile here. Generic question I hope: < 1258375482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to set the file type of some files before compiling. Once done it doesn't need to be done again < 1258375489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would one go about this < 1258375495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of timestamp file? < 1258375502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen that used sometimes, but I have never used it < 1258375516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: timestamps are really difficult to get right < 1258375535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those files generated, or in the distribution? < 1258375537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about those h1-stamp or such sometimes seen in larger autotools projects? < 1258375543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in the dist < 1258375554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't compile them if they aren't set to be TEXT files < 1258375560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for some of them at least < 1258375594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... is there any chance they might get set to non-TEXT by mistake? < 1258375596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, syslib.* need to be set to be TEXT and have LF line endings before I can even try to generate CR versions < 1258375621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, since this is stored in metadata it would be quite common yes < 1258375622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: syslib.* should be corrected to LF in the distro < 1258375633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, won't help. .3i means nothing to a mac < 1258375633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than by the build process < 1258375642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.i seems to happen to mean something it tries to convert < 1258375646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I mean syslib.3i shouldn't have been distributed with CRLF endings < 1258375646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1258375648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258375652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.i means preprocessed C, normally < 1258375671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mac os 9 at least is smart enough to try to add file types when getting files from outside sources < 1258375673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you just get the bit of code that runs tr to also set the metadata to TEXT first? < 1258375674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for common ones < 1258375685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm maybe. < 1258375697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes a lot more sense than trying to set it iff it's not already set < 1258375712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if unsetting the filetype doesn't bump the last-modified timestamp < 1258375716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, true. < 1258375730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to check every time anyway, so why not just set every time? < 1258375759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1258375781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does the CRLF get there to begin with < 1258375791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a mistake in the official tarball < 1258375792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that needs fixing < 1258375795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it is really hard to manage to get CRLF with most *nix editors < 1258375916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was probably editing them when testing on DOS < 1258375922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or they've been that way forever and nobody noticed < 1258375980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258376001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there is any rule in MPW make for "the first source file of the explicit rule"
< 1258376009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do implicit here anyway < 1258376022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is limited to simple suffixes, and they all have different < 1258376027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like .i .3i .4i < 1258376028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1258376032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it needs to begin with a dot < 1258376040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get an error about that otherwise < 1258376040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dos2unix $(file $(pcregrep -rl "\r" .) | grep text | cut -d: -f1)
< 1258376051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and incidentally wonders how hard that would have been to do without a CLI < 1258376103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is odd that Translate complained with filename of file when I did: Translate ... < foo > bar < 1258376104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1258376109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it told me foo wasn't a text file < 1258376119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes me wonder what sort of mess the MPW shell is capable of < 1258376146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, that accidentally converted inside the repo too < 1258376257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fixes
< 1258376307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw does darcs really not version empty dirs? < 1258376320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because my make system is not yet capable of creating those itself < 1258376324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will need to add that if so < 1258376387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it versions empty dirs < 1258376390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy enough to check, though < 1258376419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it versions empty dirs just fine < 1258376428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and there is still that about ick_numerals in both cesspool and numerals.... Hm Or aren't both supposed to be linked into libick? < 1258376475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it isn't defined in both < 1258376478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just defined in numerals < 1258376483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but numerals is #included into cesspool < 1258376484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then why the warning < 1258376489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ouch that hurts < 1258376497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you're compiling and linking numerals, and shouldn't < 1258376512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I am < 1258376514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good catch < 1258376545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? < 1258376554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just checking makefile.am atm < 1258376556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the makefile links both cesspool and numerals < 1258376569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I based it on Makefile.am < 1258376584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's an error in Makefile.am < 1258376611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the list of warnings at the end of http://sprunge.us/SCcB might be interesting (from most recent full build, I prefer incremental, because that way the damn emulator doesn't crash, I have to do full builds on a real mac) < 1258376640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit surprised libyuk compiles < 1258376672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with those warnings right at the bottom, that while loop really does have no body < 1258376681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and those a bit above? < 1258376687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I built those separately < 1258376689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at those now < 1258376732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not an issue, it's complaining that there isn't a return statement at the end of the function, but that point in the code's unreachable < 1258376794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm wondering why coopt stuff is even compiled at all, what with mac not supporting that < 1258376819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't run the final pass at the end < 1258376823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can still instrument the code for it < 1258376830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, you wouldn't /want/ to if the instrumentation can't do anything < 1258377145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm there is even a MakeDepend thingy, Needs to be updated manually it seems < 1258377288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I was reading http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt < 1258377307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and noticed the "Secondly make sure TABS are set to 8 characters" < 1258377326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, they are in Firefox by default < 1258377331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, please see clogs logs when ehird responds to your opions on tab < 1258377339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that could be fun < 1258377343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before any further discussion < 1258377441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird (bouncing a conversation through the logs): oil.y is a whole program written in yacc < 1258377446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without even lex! < 1258377703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice this thing uses a timestamp file for building folder structure < 1258377716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it was good enough for one of the examples included with MPW.. < 1258377969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wonders what'll happen if Plan 9 is ported to more than 9 architectures
< 1258378247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... ehird's strawmanning quite a bit in that log < 1258378255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because I wasn't there to explain what I actually meant, I don't think it was deliberate < 1258378271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you did manage a circular argument however. < 1258378278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1258378293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to agree with ehird's opinion here really < 1258378294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my argument was tab = 8 for historical reasons and because everything does that < 1258378299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, they're too wide to be used for indentation < 1258378304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I argued that in the other direction < 1258378308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, everything doesn't. There was plenty of examples against it < 1258378320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and you said that tabs being 4 was a pythonism < 1258378325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was also wrong < 1258378327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. < 1258378337 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but you haven't provided any arguments for why it shouldn't be changed, except that you needed 8-sized tabs at work < 1258378365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: because changing when nobody else has just makes you look silly < 1258378372 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you seriously think tables are useful < 1258378377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot of people have changed now, and they still all look silly < 1258378412 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean look silly? < 1258378412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the thing about my data being 6 or 7 chars so I picked tab = 8 is wrong < 1258378420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised that that wouldn't work as it wouldn't give enough horizontal spacing < 1258378433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I put three spaces before the output so as to push the ends of the data field past the next tabstop < 1258378436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and give me a bit more spacing < 1258378479 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well whatever, it's clear you could've used a program for it < 1258378492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, yes unix even has one < 1258378496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :col or something iirc? < 1258378505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no not that < 1258378506 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: highly surprising :P < 1258378508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one however < 1258378514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not col < 1258378604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was output from a Perl script I had about an hour to write < 1258378648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it was what I wrote to replace the elisp CGI script that not only needed manual intervention, but had no reason to a) be a CGI script, or b) be written in elisp < 1258378773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I failed to port CLC-INTERCAL even to DJGPP, porting it to Mac is therefore likely to be even harder < 1258378779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old Mac, that is < 1258378858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't like indent=4 tab=9 < 1258378862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indent=4 tab=8 < 1258378865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer indent=2 tab=8 < 1258378868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to save horizontal space < 1258378875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1258378879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent=4 tab=8 is what ick uses, though < 1258378885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and always has done < 1258378889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, uncommon.c uses indent=2 < 1258378889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, for generated code < 1258378896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's because I wrote it < 1258378897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok < 1258378908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you can see which bits of code I've edited < 1258378909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you said the thing about generated code after (at least on this side) < 1258378914 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258378915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by looking where the indent is 2 and where the indent is 4 < 1258378940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, normally I don't approve of mixing indentation styles within a project, but ick was doing it anyway and it's nice to let it be different from everything else like that < 1258378944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what if you edited just a few lines in a long function? did you change indention for those lines or the whole function or the whole file? < 1258378946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like it makes it particularly harder to read < 1258378949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for the block < 1258378960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err as in inside { } for if? < 1258378962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258378962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1258378970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can put an indent-2 block inside an indent-4 function just fine < 1258378972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, one style per file at least < 1258378973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1258378977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that I don't advocate this as good practice at all < 1258378981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I advocate it as icky practice < 1258378994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not something I'd do on any other project, unless it was similarly insane < 1258379053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in reference to the log: the DNA Maze indentation was, as you say, selected to annoy fans of all indentation styles equally) < 1258379081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: is HackEgo's qdb online anywhere/ < 1258379130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the reason for checking for any / in argv[0] is that if it doesn't have one, most systems would look for it in PATH, and if it does have one, it must be the true absolute or relative path < 1258379197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it was column < 1258379200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the command i mean < 1258379202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :column -t < 1258379204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be usefu < 1258379208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful* < 1258379275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :history mentions BSD4.3, not in POSIX < 1258379424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I need to logread more often < 1258379500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 323-bit processors are a great idea < 1258379507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 2^323-1 a Mersenne prime? < 1258379540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why? < 1258379580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because I vaguely want someone to make a processor which uses one's complement and for which the number of possible values in an int (i.e. UINT_MAX+1) is a prime number < 1258379602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, where -0 is the normal zero, and +0 is a trap representation < 1258379657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, going off to do some teaching, I'll be back in about 3 hours < 1258379706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you do something strange with stdout in ick? I need to do printf debugging < 1258379716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remember some freopen stuff
< 1258379721 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes/quote.db is online in the sense that it's current, but it's a binary sqlite3 file, so that's maybe not convenient always. < 1258379734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1258379735 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.15984 < 1258379740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls quotes/ < 1258379742 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote.db \ quotes.db < 1258379747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one < 1258379749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258379753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls -l quotes/ < 1258379754 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258379760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls -l quotes/ < 1258379761 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 16 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 13312 Nov 16 13:56 quote.db \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Nov 16 13:56 quotes.db < 1258379773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote.db; I'm not sure what the empty quotes.db is. < 1258379786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run du -bsh quotes/quote.db < 1258379787 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13K quotes/quote.db < 1258379795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db VACUUM < 1258379796 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258379797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run du -bsh quotes/quote.db < 1258379798 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13K quotes/quote.db < 1258379800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258379809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run type sqlite3 < 1258379810 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqlite3 is /usr/bin/sqlite3 < 1258379851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he does some auto-vacuuming there. < 1258379862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manually vacuuming the file I downloaded didn't change the size at all, at least. < 1258380207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way it seems MPW tries to auto detect indention. In uncommon.c it gave me tab and idention width of 2 < 1258380217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in a file with depth 4 it used that < 1258380556 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258380556 0 :clog_!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1258380850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, my version now looks for when guessdir in uncommon.c is correct. Anyway the check for nix was wrong < 1258380858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it always checked on an ending null byte < 1258380884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually it didn't check, it just overwrote that null byte < 1258380885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1258380897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (buf2[i] == '\0') { < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (buf2[i-1] != ICK_PATHSEP) < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : buf2[i++] = ICK_PATHSEP; < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (buf2[i] != ICK_PATHSEP) { < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : buf2[i++] = ICK_PATHSEP; < 1258380901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1258380904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems to work < 1258380914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because I'm not sure that always will be \0) < 1258380958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still the code working on argv seems broken to me < 1258380966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258381353 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258381353 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1258382597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm taking the freedom of adding a new env variable like CC for use on mac < 1258382605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be something like LD < 1258383636 0 :MigoMipo!n=kvirc@84-217-7-251.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258383879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw clock_gettime() is in libc.so on freebsd iirc < 1258383881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not librt < 1258383891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that seems like a bug in your perpet.c < 1258383912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have: < 1258383915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef HAVE_CLOCK_GETTIME /* implies -lrt is available */ < 1258383915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sourcefile, yukdebug||yukprofile?" -lyuk -lrt ":" ", < 1258383915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#else < 1258383915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sourcefile, yukdebug||yukprofile?" -lyuk ":" ", < 1258383915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1258384318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I get build errors for sort.i < 1258384412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see http://sprunge.us/XCQY (note: probably CR line endings) < 1258384416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the paste I mean) < 1258384494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the source differs slightly < 1258384613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, here is the diff http://sprunge.us/QHgb?diff < 1258384707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it seems -c affects what is generated < 1258384708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1258384721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the difference is just in comments when both use -c < 1258384725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it still doesn't compile < 1258384738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, top and bottom comments) < 1258384759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so either I hit a compiler bug[1] or I hit a compiler bug[2] < 1258384762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] In ick < 1258384767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2] In MrC < 1258386009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1258388658 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258388670 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258389870 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1258390107 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258390185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1258390196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn that was close < 1258390210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just checking if you were idle < 1258390264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, see: alcohol is good for you! ;D < 1258390367 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-29-15.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258390605 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258390861 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1258391211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: details? < 1258391219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for what bit? < 1258391228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler bug < 1258391237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1258391239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, see http://sprunge.us/XCQY (note: probably CR line endings) < 1258391242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, here is the diff http://sprunge.us/QHgb?diff < 1258391242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258391258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that diff turned out to be -c vs. not -c < 1258391271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is no actual difference and it doesn't work either way < 1258391310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as for your question about stdout, weird stuff happens to at least one of the stdio streams, but stderr should be fine to use < 1258391397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that "constant initialiser expected" error looks wrong < 1258391400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the code looks right < 1258391409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in standard C, there's no reason why you can't initialise a variable to an expression < 1258391432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. < 1258391456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suppose we can work around that to help out broken compilers < 1258391465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or just not use the -a option when compiling) < 1258391472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I didn't use -a < 1258391475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only used: < 1258391479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-e then < 1258391480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-b -c < 1258391484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those were the only ones < 1258391485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, strange < 1258391493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is the JIC stuff being linked in then? < 1258391503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, same happens on *nix though < 1258391514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe due to being based on 0.29 not current darcs? < 1258391530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that wouldn't do it < 1258391539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be some statement in a program that causes JIC mode to be turned on < 1258391547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure which it is offhand < 1258391549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pit/sort.i < 1258391600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I am able to get gcc to spit warnings about not being computable at load time. Possibly related? < 1258391602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort.c: In function 'main': < 1258391602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort.c:666: warning: initializer element is not computable at load time < 1258391602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort.c:666: warning: initializer element is not computable at load time < 1258391602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort.c:1419: warning: initializer element is not computable at load time < 1258391604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1258391605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of it < 1258391610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely related < 1258391622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, needs -ansi -pedantic though < 1258391637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, it's not a standard violation < 1258391646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I noticed MrC sometimes got errors a few lines off < 1258391650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because -pedantic says "ISO C89 forbids" for those < 1258391659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happened on yacc/lex code at least < 1258391698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm also able to get icc to output warnings about something similar < 1258391706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort.c(451): warning #589: transfer of control bypasses initialization of: < 1258391706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : variable "icd" (declared at line 665) < 1258391706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : variable "icd" (declared at line 1418) < 1258391706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : variable "icd" (declared at line 1434) < 1258391707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see what's happening < 1258391707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1258391718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1258391719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it prints rudimentary jic info for anything < 1258391726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? < 1258391730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the more jic-requiring features are used, the more info it adds < 1258391739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1258391746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is jic < 1258391756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just-in-case compilation < 1258391769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where it compiles syntax errors into table lookups just in case the statement is redefined later < 1258391863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258391915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, interesting. One of apple's debuggers refuses to run if a valid printer isn't selected in the printer chooser thing < 1258391918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thingy* < 1258391924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why < 1258391937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258392002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway now the emulator crashed again sig < 1258392004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh* < 1258392119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, so that jic stuff. how to work around it (or whatever) < 1258392138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, put placeholders into the array then copy the actual values over them < 1258392173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be kind-of annoying to write, though < 1258392182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure I actually understand what is going on in there. As in: what the heck it is complaining about < 1258392203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's complaining about initialising a struct element to a value that isn't a constant < 1258392215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is illegal for a static variable, but fine for an auto one < 1258392249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258392280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Compile-time initialization can only be done using constant expressions; run-time initialization can be done using any expression at all. The Old C restriction, that only simple variables (not arrays, structures or unions) could be initialized at run time, has been lifted." < 1258392296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, once it was illegal... < 1258392340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is relevant to your problem < 1258392346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that explains a lot < 1258392355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be quite a bit before C89, I imagine < 1258392355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://publications.gbdirect.co.uk/c_book/chapter6/initialization.html) < 1258392362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's no reason not to support it too < 1258392471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so that one applies to MrC it seems < 1258392478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless there is some semi hidden option for it < 1258392608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay saying -ansi on made it repot lots more errors... Like that the , operator is not allowed in constant expressions. I think it got seriously confused there < 1258392626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that book is also old, it's labeled as "only historic interest" < 1258392661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from 1991) < 1258392745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you find the material useful and happen to encounter one of the authors, it is unlikely that they will refuse offers to buy them a drink. You may therefore like to consider this material .drinkware.. (Offer void where prohibited by law, in which case fawning and flattery may be substituted.)" :D < 1258393183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving..." < 1258393369 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deleted_pages < 1258393435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile: well naturally that wouldn't be in the main namespace if it existed < 1258393540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, codewarrior's compiler complained just as loudly about that btw < 1258393583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's "the other mac compiler" basically) < 1258393640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile: you are also failing at a meta-joke, because it hasn't even been deleted ;D < 1258393657 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humph < 1258393728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list does exist, it's at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Special:Undelete < 1258393731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's only viewable to admins < 1258393734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and too long to really be useful < 1258393799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, there is also http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= < 1258393812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, codewarrior also dislikes some newlines in strings < 1258393812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1258393833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's a list of deletions, not a list of deleted apges < 1258393835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pages < 1258393848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ick_createdata icd[]={ < 1258393848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {32,0,0,{0,0},(ick_lose(IE000, ick_lineno, " PLEASE NOTE END OF CODE FOR .2 = #1\n\ < 1258393848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "),0)}, < 1258393848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {16, 0, 0, {NULL, NULL}, 0} < 1258393848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : }; < 1258393849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1258393854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it complains about the line < 1258393857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, nearly the same thing ;) < 1258393858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't say where exactly < 1258393864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1258393868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it dislikes that a LOT < 1258393882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: backslash-newline should be deleted by the preprocessor before the compiler even sees the code < 1258393891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't, at this rate we're going to need a custom preprocessor < 1258393901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah so I guess it is the same thing as not constant < 1258393912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just said "illegal constant initialiser" < 1258393919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pointed to the line with ick_lose < 1258393926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with z < 1258393932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(initializer) < 1258393938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi autoconf, you're supposed to sort all this stuff out by magic! < 1258393947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, this one too? < 1258393975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I was making a general statement < 1258393983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe it's ever claimed to be able to magically fix generated code < 1258393992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway why is there such a strange newline in that? < 1258393994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it would reject stock Mac cpp as broken? < 1258394004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because there was a newline in the original source < 1258394005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems completely pointless < 1258394016 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to print a syntax error verbatim if it would run < 1258394019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok. Anyway it doesn't seem to be preprocessor related < 1258394028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it on one line still gives the error < 1258394036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, how did you change that to one line? < 1258394038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just now it points to the right place of the line, < 1258394047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be "\tPLEASE NOTE END OF CODE FOR .2 + #1\n" on one line < 1258394049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, backspace to remove the embedded newline < 1258394050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258394054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, with a literal tab rather than \t < 1258394069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then saved the .c I just edited < 1258394073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: backslash-newline is equivalent to the null string < 1258394074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tried to compile again < 1258394078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you remove the final backslash? < 1258394100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes. the issue again is the same as with the not constant initialiser above < 1258394101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same issue < 1258394108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just different exact circumstances < 1258394118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the ick_lose call embedded there < 1258394128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing the call fixes it for that one < 1258394131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go figure < 1258394136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258394151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, the issue isn't the backslash-newline, it's the function call in an initialiser < 1258394157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258394177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just codewarrior sucks at telling you where exactly the error happened. in that it is worse than gcc even < 1258394199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while MPW is rather good at it (just getting the line number wrong a bit sometimes) < 1258394243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw why does yuk require that it is run directly from ick? < 1258394252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means it won't work on mac < 1258394257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I think it could in theory < 1258394259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: copyright reasons < 1258394266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, remember now < 1258394271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't go around linking GPL code with non-GPL code and leaving it lying around on someone else's hard disk < 1258394290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so you overwrite the file with zeros once the debugging is done? ;P < 1258394317 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258394332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you overwrite your browser cache with zeros as soon as you stop looking at the page? < 1258394337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, remember also that there are some filesystems that don't overwrite data ever, rather they try to keep the history < 1258394339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's probably some sort of fair use argument involved < 1258394344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can go back to any instant < 1258394362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(until you reach the end of the circular buffer that the whole fs is basically) < 1258394377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in which case iirc you have to decide what to keep) < 1258394582 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258397601 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1258397753 0 :MigoMipo!n=kvirc@84-217-7-251.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258399559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how do you send SIGINT to an MPW application? < 1258399562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's possible at all? < 1258399674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not that I know of < 1258399674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1258399681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I got some stuff to build as SIOW < 1258399685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was reading through the docs < 1258399696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what docs. I need docs < 1258399703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the C-INTERCAL docs < 1258399715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258399717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I noticed they talked about C-c (UNIX/Linux) and C-BREAK (Windows/DOS) < 1258399725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was wondering what the Mac equivalent was < 1258399737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I doubt that is possible at all on classic mac < 1258399761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258399773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for OS X, it would be control-C (not command-C), right? < 1258399786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ask ehird not me < 1258399792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on os x you wouldn't need MPW < 1258399798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1258399801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck cfunge builds on os x < 1258399802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a mildly unrelated question < 1258399983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, atm this diff "works for me" in uncommon.c http://sprunge.us/YSeQ Until you have a patch for proper doing this in config.h that is what I use < 1258399999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that only fixes the case of guessdir being correct < 1258400042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I suggest you read the changes in it however. < 1258400054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway my perpet.c changes I guess I need to pastebin < 1258400104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which is currently this: http://sprunge.us/WGSL < 1258400115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very much work in progress < 1258400139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure getenv even has a sensible meaning in MPW... < 1258400142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1258400155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably it gets vars set in the mpw shell or such) < 1258400205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I should merge the SIOW stuff into that < 1258400267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, other downside with tabs btw: when diff adds the +/- in front they look wrong if used for alignment like you did in some cases < 1258400281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(still works for indention levels, just not for adjustment) < 1258400304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diff has an option to add tabs always after + / - for that reason, although I don't use it < 1258400320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that seems it would break patch? < 1258400332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, patch can be weirdly tolerant < 1258400335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably just for human reading < 1258400341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diff isn't always used with patch < 1258400500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, any comments on the changes in those files? < 1258400512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet, I haven't read them thoroughly < 1258400524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the build system is still somewhat insane, no clean target. and I use ::src: as ICKINCLUDEDIR atm < 1258400536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, the find_and_fopen stuff needs a rewrite < 1258400919 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.112.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258402803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thank you for signing up to give us early feedback on Google Wave. We're happy to give you access to Google Wave and are enlisting your help to improve the product." < 1258402806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one issue; i already have it < 1258403566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, google wave? < 1258403576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it is still in beta. but what is it < 1258403579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your eyes are not deceiving you? < 1258403588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just google for it, I can't be arsed to explain. < 1258403593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that any of the explanations are any good. < 1258403750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh not even beta < 1258403753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just "limited preview" < 1258403889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wave.google.com/help/wave/images/meeting_notes.jpg <-- haha, how macabre if you read the list at the end < 1258403924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERADICATE < 1258403960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the stuff above is quite nasty too < 1258403975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(conidering jimmy might be the source of that smell at the end!) < 1258404072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, proggit is intermittently erroring < 1258404102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An error occurred while processing your request. Reference #97.a6a99d50.1258404091.0" < 1258404126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was retyped, because I left my mouse at home, and while mice are bad for some things they're excellent for web browsing, including copying info out of a web browser < 1258404128 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proggit is written in python < 1258404175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointing that out can only be leading to a troll < 1258404179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :('python code is unstable, hurr') < 1258404188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, you can write unstable code in any language < 1258404195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except Subtle Cough, which isn't powerful enough < 1258404200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly a few of the other esolangs < 1258404215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hey read the comments ais made on your reply to his tab rant! < 1258404217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny < 1258404229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a real nice flamewar right now < 1258404232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but I'm not angry right now and i do not want to be angry < 1258404254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1258404257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird there is no action when you do it when the other person left < 1258404260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm reading it anyway < 1258404262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lets make you angry < 1258404266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the sort of argument that can easily be had by bouncing comments off logs < 1258404275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as both people end up taking each other out of context because logs do that < 1258404280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I won't bother replying to any arguments ais523 makes when i say my responses, unless the ones I logread are logical < 1258404287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, based on strong historical precedence, they won't be < 1258404288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "haskell sucks and go's installer sucks and you are young and stupid" <-- angry now? < 1258404296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not yet! < 1258404297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the anger. < 1258404387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HULK SMASH < 1258404392 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell does not suck. It is 'The perfect advanced programming language for the productive factorial developer' < 1258404394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1258404406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a star wars reference, not a hulk one. < 1258404406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a reference you probably don't get < 1258404407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with every down arrow i press on this log, I dread more and more I will hit idiocy < 1258404410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's what angry people don't < 1258404414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that I made) < 1258404425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: some of it's idiotic, some is simple corrections, some of it may even be reasonable < 1258404441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with the first part at least, preëmptively. < 1258404448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Haskell does not suck. It is 'The perfect advanced programming language for the productive factorial developer' <-- I was joking... < 1258404456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was he < 1258404463 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, -_- < 1258404476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:54:00 * ais523 dos2unix $(file $(pcregrep -rl "\r" .) | grep text | cut -d: -f1) < 1258404476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:54:11 and incidentally wonders how hard that would have been to do without a CLI < 1258404476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[…] < 1258404476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh good point < 1258404476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:55:46 whoops, that accidentally converted inside the repo too < 1258404477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just drag the repo dir to the Shoot Self in Foot application < 1258404496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: luckily darcs stores the patch infos as binaries < 1258404505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can reconstruct the entire repo from them in about a minute < 1258404517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I still had the list of files in scrollback, I could just have reversed the change directly < 1258404517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:26:09 * ais523 vaguely wonders what'll happen if Plan 9 is ported to more than 9 architectures < 1258404517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use alphabetical chars already < 1258404518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what command is it? < 1258404521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though they only have 0-8 < 1258404536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the first one ehird quoted directly above < 1258404549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one to convert CRLF to LF recursively in a directory, while avoiding binary files < 1258404569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, I should probably have checked whether "text" was in the filename or not, but I'd already looked at the file list to change and that wasn't a problem < 1258404572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what if it had been ported to more than the size of the alphabet plus 10? < 1258404582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe !c < 1258404582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind-of weird I didn't notice the files in the repo when I reviewed the list... < 1258404585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 36 architectures? go onto capitals < 1258404587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :62 compilers < 1258404593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after 62 architectures, congratulate yourself and retire < 1258404597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1258404646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if you want to reply do it slowly and completely because I'm not interested in a flamewar. < 1258404646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:31:34 my argument was tab = 8 for historical reasons and because everything does that < 1258404646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good start, at least. My argument was that no, the historical reasons aren't that: it's "insert spaces until the current position is a multiple of 8". Not the same thing, and it incidentally makes it a bitch for alignment that way, which nicely defeats some of your other arguments. And everything doesn't do that; you say it does, but dismiss all counterexamples as being irrelevant because they're just because the world is broken or something. This is irrati < 1258404660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm aware that tabs move to a multiple < 1258404660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*irrational. < 1258404665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd mentioned it last time, with the tables < 1258404671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plz, one line replies < 1258404675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise this'll degenerate into a flamewaar < 1258404677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*flamewar < 1258404684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(↑ i have tested this theory quite a few times) < 1258404691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab = 8 is shorthand for "tabs move to a multiple of 8", just like tab = 4 is shorthand for "tabs move to a multiple of 4", there that's one line < 1258404804 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster mine was a joke too < 1258404805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it makes alignment awkward with such multiple-tabs, which eliminates those of your arguments predicated on easy alignment with tabs. < 1258404817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can I diverge from the topic of whether "tabs" SHOULD be 8? < 1258404828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd like to have a related, short debate so I can figure out exactly what argument we're having. < 1258404830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's fine < 1258404834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile, mhm < 1258404843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly it's because I haven't had a good flamewar in ages and was deliberately being provocative < 1258404844 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you not get it? < 1258404872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so was he < 1258404872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster, -_- < 1258404872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 04:54:00 * ais523 dos2unix $(file $(pcregrep -rl "\r" .) | grep text | cut -d: -f1) < 1258404872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird, oh good point < 1258404880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile, your reply to it was a bit late < 1258404887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that bit of code's going to end up posted all over the Internet... < 1258404889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile, and yes I was too tried to get it < 1258404894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I need to sleep very soon < 1258404900 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is very basic try again < 1258404989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Let's pretend the "tabs" in my world are called floobs. A floob, in code, represents one level of indentation; no visual aspect is implied. The normal user will set one floob to display as N spaces; this way, code can be as compact or as dense as their preference. Obviously, we should use spaces, which are the width of one normal character, for alignment in such a system. We can, in fact, use floobs past the start of the line. For instance (note: plea < 1258404989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't align comments like this, it's evil) (.=space) < 1258404989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo().{ < 1258404990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar;//.abc,.def < 1258404993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ://.ghi: < 1258404995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ://.code; < 1258404997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ://.blah < 1258404999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1258405001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*please < 1258405008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: We can see that no matter how many spaces we display floob as, everything aligns and indents properly. < 1258405035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Completely independent from the issue of what a tab should be; do you agree that this system is nice and provides good benefits while still being clear-cut, simple and allowing alignment? < 1258405042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A floob is one level of indentation, a space is used for alignment. < 1258405079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'd be happy for a character like that to be added to a Unicode; I just don't think it's the same character as tab. Also, you'd have to add support for it to a lot of applications (i.e. configurable width; most won't do that by default), and you'll have to correct the 99% of programmers who ignore the guidelines and just use whatever lines up on their screen < 1258405088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Please let us ignore the character tab. < 1258405108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which makes 90% of your comment irrelevant. This is a *separate* thing. Could you reply again to floobs, ignoring compatibility and tabs? < 1258405142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that writing all those floobs out would be a bit repetitive in such a case; why not have increase-indent and decrease-indent characters instead, which more closely conveys the semantics of what you're trying to do, and have them render as variable width like above? < 1258405168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Because that wouldn't be a regular character. Anyway, I am not denying that there are better systems. < 1258405181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: However, do you agree that the advantages of this system over using a fixed number of spaces for indentation are clear? < 1258405211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can easily backspace and insert indentations without editor hacks, it's easy to adjust code for the situation, it's easy to adjust for your personal preference, it saves bytes, and fundamentally it's just more semantic. < 1258405218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have indents being indents instead of the "inlined" spaces, so to speak. < 1258405228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree there are advantages; there are also a couple of disadvantages (mostly, the difficulty of enforcing it), and it doesn't allow block-indentation easily (but then neither does spaces to indent) < 1258405244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Please define block-indentation. < 1258405297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you want to put a new if { } around your code (say in C; generalise to other languages as necessary), you have to reindent everything inside the block, which is a real pain to do in an editor not designed for that sort of thing < 1258405318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well, of course, that is up to the editor. < 1258405337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, so we agree that floob is a good thing (maybe not a perfect thing, but a good thing, and definitely good for indentation). < 1258405350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Please let me type another line. < 1258405356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did < 1258405431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To reply to your first response: Let us assume (please do not jump beyond what I say just yet) that floob actually exists. Even if most programs could only display floobs as a fixed number of spaces, this is not too much of a big deal (assuming the amount of spaces isn't totally created). The programs that can do it can do it, and the rest still work. Let us assume this world exists; do you agree that floobs would still be a good thing? < 1258405481 0 :Rugxulo!n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258405484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because people with nonfloobified editors would try to edit floobish files and cause a huge mess which was partly floobed and partly nonfloobed < 1258405530 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: pong? < 1258405546 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile: did you answer? where did you get your nick < 1258405552 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258405553 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: just wondering if you were here ... did you see my Befunge program to detect version (year)? < 1258405558 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just chose it < 1258405561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I take it that facsimile != faxathia?) < 1258405566 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== < 1258405571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258405606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Nope, haven't been following today's goings-on < 1258405609 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see too, but a different thing < 1258405616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Let us assume that there is a single, obvious keystroke to insert a floob, and all editors handle them as single characters displayed as N spaces; quite a high number, more than "most people" would use, so it is quite recognisable. Let us also assume that there are convenient reindentation programs available to fix the mistakes, and also that people unaccustomed to code formats already mess up with space indentation, using different widths (or even fl < 1258405616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you agree now that floob would still be a good thing? < 1258405625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*or even floobs!). < 1258405626 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it was like two days ago < 1258405640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I haven't been following this channel much at all lately :-P < 1258405659 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1258405660 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah Deewiant thinks we're idiots < 1258405683 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1258405683 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i saw him say once!) < 1258405688 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that < 1258405709 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was partly due to us being idiots < 1258405774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: assuming you could do something about Python and other similar languages (which cannot be automatically reindented), and that keystroke actually inserted a floob most of the time rather than being rebound to something else by editors that assumed nobody would want to type them, now it's starting to be a bit more reasonable < 1258405778 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think #esoteric is the wrong place to call anybody idiot / genius, we're just "weird" ;-) < 1258405813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, let's just assume the reindentation program changed the right number of spaces at the start of a line (for a configurable amount) to floobs; that would work even on Python. < 1258405822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: More reasonable? < 1258405882 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone want to define "floob" for me? < 1258405882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly more, although you still aren't solving the problem of what happens if the Python code's passed between two incompetent developers with different floobwidths before anyone thinks to reindent, which probably would happen far too often < 1258405916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: a hypothetical character which is similar to, say, left-tab from Word (and which is not really the same as tab from ASCII) < 1258405935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1258405938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not bring tab into this at all < 1258405942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ignore us < 1258405944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are having a trivial debate < 1258405953 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? Tab is tasty ;-) < 1258405959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: please go away. thx < 1258405964 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258405968 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258405971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the more you say things about its relation tab, the more you lock in your current definition, making it impossible for me to try and convince you otherwise; in which case why should i bother debating? < 1258405972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*relation to < 1258406004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I was trying to define for Rugxulo; and this conversation is useful, it's likely to identify the boundaries between a floob and a tab, at least < 1258406009 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should found #esoteric-tab for this stuff? < 1258406030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my job is to convince you that they don't exist, if you casually explain that the boundary exists, even if this is your current opinion, this definitely does make my job harder < 1258406073 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#flooby-wooby-funtime < 1258406135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so, anyway < 1258406165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the incompetent's floobwidth difference; sure, but it turns out that code written by such people tends to be of low quality anyway < 1258406172 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey does the name "tab" come from "table" btw? < 1258406176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: yes < 1258406177 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1258406180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, i very much doubt that went through such a situation, < 1258406182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would come out better than before < 1258406184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "tabulation", which is related to "table" < 1258406187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can we agree on that? < 1258406190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabula rasa < 1258406195 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258406220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think I can agree with you personally, but I think the majority of businesses would incorrectly disagree, and they tend to have quite a large influence < 1258406251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let us assume that in this world people vehemently disagree about floobs vs spaces, do different things, and the world goes on anyway. :-P < 1258406315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok? < 1258406323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting somewhere, i swear < 1258406330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so, how reasonable now? < 1258406371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you're asking me to make a lot of assumptions; and in a world where there was vehement disagreement, I'd imagine that using either would be frowned upon depending on who your coworkers were, meaning that the choice would be made for you < 1258406383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let's assume the project is non-corporate. < 1258406409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and i'm asking you to make assumptions to show that floobs are good in such a world, then deconstruct that world to try and convince you of its identicality (or closeness) to the real world < 1258406455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there are a huge number of assumptions already; the editor one seems rather unlike the real world already (what does pressing tab do in a form field of a browser, for instance?) < 1258406460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: irrelevant < 1258406462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, that's for later < 1258406466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't have two arguments at once < 1258406473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not really, it's in the list of assumptions you've already asked me to make < 1258406478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258406480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about a fake world < 1258406489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its relation to the real world is not being discussed now < 1258406491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, do you agree that in such a world, floobs are preferable to spaces for indentation? for projects you have control over. < 1258406523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if I have a floobified editor, yes, I think so < 1258406544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even if others who may want to contribute don't? since they'll just see it as 8 spaces, and still know they're floobs < 1258406558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with perhaps a quick command to turn their mistakes into floobs required) < 1258406606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you already asked me to assume that floobs rendered reasonably on the majority of editors; I don't consider 8 spaces reasonable for languages that tend to indent heavilly < 1258406641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may not be ideal, but it's certainly workable < 1258406646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, i can almost code with ed < 1258406654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, let us assume that the majority of coders do not have screens as tiny as yours. :-P (note: this is true in both worlds) < 1258406666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by assume i'm really just stating axioms about the world < 1258406687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not quite true; my screen's relatively large, and as a result I like to fit two files side by side. It comes to about 166 characters wide, which neatly fits two 80-column files side by side < 1258406693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively large? < 1258406696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude. < 1258406697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1258406709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only computers with screens lower-res than yours are shitty, shitty netbooks < 1258406711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're not much lower < 1258406717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 1280x800? 1024x768 is the usual resolution, AFAIR < 1258406724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1258406728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[21:25] ais523: ehird: 1280x800? 1024x768 is the usual resolution, AFAIR < 1258406730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: behold < 1258406739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I won't even get into most people, but definitely not for coders. < 1258406746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely, definitely, supremely doubly-absolutely not. < 1258406753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I thought you set your font size to about twice what I set mine to, so there's probably more columns on my screen than on yours with typical settings < 1258406776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many columns do you get? < 1258406797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :226 with some padding at the left and right (something like slightly below 20px) < 1258406798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1258406804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the font i use for code < 1258406812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, 166 at about 9px; wow how big is your screen?! < 1258406819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1680x1050 < 1258406829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "normal" iMac res until the latest update < 1258406833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must measure fonts in a completely different unit to me, then < 1258406841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as those numbers just don't match up with each other < 1258406846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [21:25] ais523: ehird: 1280x800? 1024x768 is the usual resolution, AFAIR <-- *blink* < 1258406851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12pt at ~100ppi < 1258406857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even run sheepshaver at 1280x800 < 1258406859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1258406861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not < 1258406863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := ~16px < 1258406872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1200x820 < 1258406874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1258406877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't look big to me, though < 1258406879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I use for sheepshaaver < 1258406885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it looks like regular english text < 1258406890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1280x800 is a good screen res for embedding 1024x768 VMs and still having room for window decoration, if you hide the panels < 1258406903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1258406919 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floob < 1258406925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258406927 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.112.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258406929 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funge < 1258406942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rugxglo: shut up; irc client: fuck you < 1258406943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1258406944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that was a weird reaction... < 1258406944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Funge you, floob!" < 1258406953 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.112.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258406954 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rugxulo < 1258406959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258406959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what's up with your client? < 1258406974 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.112.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258406979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1258406982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258406984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird: what's up with your client? < 1258406991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can assure you that programmers use a bigger resolution than yours. < 1258406994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all. < 1258406995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1680x1050 is a typical desktop res < 1258406996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258407001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least almost all that matter. < 1258407003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a laptop res is often a bit smaller < 1258407008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 1024 x 768 is the desktop screen here, when it's been cable-hacked to actually show anything < 1258407009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1280x1024 used to be rather typical < 1258407015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *used to* yes < 1258407016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 1024x768 is just ridiculous < 1258407017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1258407023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: PROGRAMMERS ARE NOT NORMAL PEOPLE < 1258407024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ibook is 800x600 < 1258407027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that used to be normal too < 1258407029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just in case you didn't notice... < 1258407035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: this is in a CS department, the computers are standard dual-boot Windows/Linux < 1258407041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ehird: 1024 x 768 is the desktop screen here, when it's been cable-hacked to actually show anything" <-- cable hacked? < 1258407043 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's designed for programmers < 1258407052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're set up by an incompetent bureauocracy < 1258407059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bureaucracy < 1258407067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's something wrong with the video driver, the officially-mandated fix is to swap to a crappier cable that puts fewer demands on it, or something < 1258407073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on a tiny budget < 1258407087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, cable to the monitor? huh < 1258407091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is about as stupid as Ubuntu permanently blacklisting the pc speaker kernel module to stop the beeping on shutdown < 1258407093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, on your laptop? < 1258407098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: on the desktop < 1258407101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway < 1258407105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wow now that is madness < 1258407111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll just say that – since I'm bored — < 1258407121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway 1024 x 768 can't be a desktop these days < 1258407130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even less than what I had 5 years ago < 1258407134 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is 1024x768 now
< 1258407139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 years ago I had 1280x1024 < 1258407151 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"old" 2002 PC, though < 1258407152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still shocked that modern computers can't all be down-ressed to 640x480 < 1258407162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually hm < 1258407166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1024x768 has a distinctly old-fashioned feel to it nowadays, yes. Especially since laptops went so widescreeny; the iBook is 1024x768. < 1258407169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might have been 6 years ago < 1258407169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am I going to ensure portability now? use 320x240, which /does/ seem to work on all computers? < 1258407173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that 1280x1024 < 1258407182 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :320x240? isn't that modex? < 1258407189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes < 1258407198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm still shocked that modern computers can't all be down-ressed to 640x480 <-- that would be required for boot right? < 1258407208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, why do you need such a low resolution at all < 1258407214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: err, no, computers can boot in other resolutions nowadays < 1258407215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use the native res of your TFT < 1258407221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, normal PCs don't < 1258407224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience < 1258407230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1258407231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macs do < 1258407233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but while I was growing up, if you wanted to write a full-screen program at a fixed res, you'd make it 640x480 because you knew everyone could set their screen to that < 1258407234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's macs < 1258407237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the fake world I showed is pretty close to the real world. Sure, it's more crufty... and it doesn't work perfectly... but there is wide support for adjustable tabs, and if you use them right it isn't such a big deal. I think that, based on the goodness of flubs, and the relative closeness of the fake world to the real (especially since people who'd contribute to the kind of projects that ours are tend to be intelligent people who care about this sort < 1258407237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff) using tabs (flubs) when the community around a language isn't against it is a good idea. (so pretty much C and Go). The only real reason not to is an irrational devotion to historical reasons. Are you an extreme conservative? If not, join us. < 1258407245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you don't write apps that require a fixed res < 1258407247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sort of stuff < 1258407253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that breaks windowed mode badly < 1258407254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is back when Windows was the only PC OS anyone had heard of outside programming circles) < 1258407257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1258407270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I used to < 1258407272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any app wanting fixed resolution for either the screen or it's window < 1258407273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is BROKEN < 1258407278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was younger and less good at programming then < 1258407295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, when I was younger I used to poke around in memory to turn caps lock on < 1258407300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just use toupper on input < 1258407308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would use xset led < 1258407312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, *shudder* < 1258407318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at me I'm a unix elitist blah blah blah feel bad. < 1258407319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn < 1258407327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a while before I learnt good programming practice < 1258407328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you should reply to my comment with a total dismissal so i can get onto flaming < 1258407333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I learnt about portability the hard way < 1258407336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually I have progamatically set it from Delphi once < 1258407345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make me a unix elitist < 1258407370 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, he's a Linux 64-bit elitist, get it right ;-) < 1258407384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, floobs* < 1258407388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh, I got distracted; and if you want a flamy answer, then if we're going to replace the traditional indentation styles, we may as well introduce indent and dedent characters, which actually solve most of these problems < 1258407390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you wrote "flubs" < 1258407395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that trivial to make heavily-prettified-by-a-proliferation-of-manually-painted-bitmaps based "user interfaces" that are resolution-independent; quite a lot of games have difficulties running in resolutions they haven't anticipated. < 1258407396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(above) < 1258407399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll floob YOUR MOM. < 1258407401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1258407403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm surprised you didn't start a second flamewar about Go there < 1258407404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1258407411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: at least, maybe, you're more accepting of those who use tabs < 1258407415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know enough about Go to really have an opinion < 1258407424 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bets AnMaster's mom ain't that old
< 1258407427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is good enough for me; I don't really care what you use as long as you understand why I use tabs < 1258407432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, now I think it's based on a deluded view of reality rather than just stupidity < 1258407437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe, an excessively idealistic one < 1258407452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're welcome to rebut, but somehow I doubt you're interested. < 1258407456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, oh? define 1) "that old" and 2) amount of money you bet < 1258407475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, my personal experience with c and go is that using tabs has NEVER caused a single problem, ever. < 1258407480 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< 50 ? < 1258407482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe this would be AnMaster's experience, too. (but only for C) < 1258407486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: despite not knowing much about Go, if you're in a mood for a flamewar I can come up with some specious strawmanny arguments against it if you like so you can knock them down < 1258407486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, maybe bash too) < 1258407497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That would be fun and less upsetting than formatting discussions. < 1258407504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what would you suggest I use for indentation in a Makefile? < 1258407512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Tabs, for... quite obvious reasons. < 1258407514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being that it'll break otherwise. < 1258407522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean beyond the first level < 1258407526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cd $GOROOT; hg pull && make install
< 1258407537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't have such complex makefiles :P (But tabs) < 1258407553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hg pull && hg update && make install < 1258407561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*&& cd src && make install < 1258407564 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading some Forth today (by another ardent tab=8 devotee), it was indented using tabs and it worked < 1258407568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tabs worked fine for me with C, C#, Erlang, Bash, Delphi, AppleScript, Python[1] and several other languages. Only language I had issues with it was LISP. < 1258407570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think indentation styles depend on the language a lot < 1258407572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] Yeah I know, and I don't care. < 1258407578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/make install/./all.bash/ < 1258407579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am fail < 1258407589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: s////? < 1258407600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and amount of money? < 1258407601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: with python i believe tabs are illegal in py3k < 1258407604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how to evaluate that operator < 1258407607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really isn't good to go against convention so much < 1258407611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: escape second < 1258407618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm no, just mixing them is < 1258407623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, that's in 2 < 1258407624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1258407641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought in 2 it wasn't illegal, just horribly horribly warny < 1258407642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about go is that gofmt(1) is totally awesome about indenting code. < 1258407649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everybody runs it on their code < 1258407657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pretty sure that is so < 1258407657 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know, what's the kroner (sp?) to dollar amount these days? < 1258407659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the official repo mandates running it before submitting a patch, programmatically < 1258407670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like languages which can be easily reindented < 1258407671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, "kronor" < 1258407683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, google says: < 1258407686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 U.S. dollar = 6.79698758 Swedish kronor < 1258407692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, is it related that I have a horrible habit of annoying people by leaving out semicolons when I write Lua? It was a while before I even realised they were legal) < 1258407693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: come on, go strawmen! < 1258407706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, lua is meant to be written without semicolons < 1258407712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said people are retards < 1258407713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: as in, x = 1 y = 1 < 1258407718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ugh < 1258407720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add some newlines < 1258407726 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1258407736 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I use 4-space indentation for lua < 1258407741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that end end end end stacks up neatly < 1258407746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion." < 1258407748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebuttal: no it doesn't < 1258407765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I don't write them all on the same line unless the starting for loops (it normally is for loops) also started on the same line < 1258407766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gopack grc _test/crypto/tls.a _gotest_.6 < 1258407767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- FAIL: tls.TestAlertForwarding < 1258407767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Got error: received unexpected value on one of the channels: script.channelClosed{channel:(chan interface { })(0x35a230)}. Runnable events: recv alert < 1258407767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAIL < 1258407767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make[1]: *** [test] Error 1 < 1258407768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reassuring < 1258407771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think i'll go back to the release version < 1258407796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, did you know that Go's concurrency model is somewhat less flexible than INTERCAL's? < 1258407815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hg update -r release
< 1258407815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what *is* Go's concurrency model? < 1258407817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i am so unsurprised < 1258407820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: goroutines < 1258407830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it make use of SMP? < 1258407833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1258407837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ick doesn't < 1258407844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc ick runs in lock-step < 1258407848 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORTRAN, now, those guys are so against tabs. Maybe that's natural, since you have to start the actual code from the seventh column of the file, and use the sixth for continuation line markers, 2nd-5th for line numbers and the first for comment markers; I guess tabs don't really work there. < 1258407849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it could in theory, just it would make your head explode < 1258407852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goroutines are like coroutines except actually concurrent and you can communicate among a bunch of them without worrying about synchronisation < 1258407857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how so? < 1258407860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're <3 < 1258407864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the syntax is nice too < 1258407869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna see a nice parallel mandelbrot renderer? < 1258407872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: up to one statement's worth of desync is allowed at every COME FROM < 1258407874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you communicate among them? < 1258407878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :channels < 1258407883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't summarise a whole concurrency model >_< < 1258407886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so message based? < 1258407891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1258407892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or stream based? < 1258407892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu < 1258407901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is a channel then < 1258407903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or abstention based/ < 1258407904 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu, floob! < 1258407906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not here to explain a whole concurrency model to you that you don't know in one line < 1258407915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, that was meant to parody AnMaster but I typoed the ? again < 1258407915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only? not more? < 1258407930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anyone who isn't going to ask a ton of questions, behold the tiny, totally-parallel, png-outputting mandelbrot generator with options! < 1258407931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/msg/8f07441480e01d80?dmode=source&output=gplain < 1258407934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :protip: it's tiny < 1258407937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and readable < 1258407945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep <> for start < 1258407960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there is one unidiomatic bit about the code though < 1258407965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a lot of var lines followed by = < 1258407976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the var lines should be omitted and the =s replaced by := < 1258407979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I'll do that now < 1258407983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more idiomatic mandelbrot, comin' right up < 1258407992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that syntax is giving my brain a bit of a culture shock, as it's trying to work out whether it's C or Python < 1258407994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and getting muddled < 1258408011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs don't do this to me, because the syntax is generally so weird it doesn't get confused with other things < 1258408018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mine is being confused between pascal and C < 1258408021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cleaner C :P < 1258408024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some pascal influences < 1258408028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm going to make a more idiomatic version of it < 1258408030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes your even think about python < 1258408033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll be even shorter! < 1258408035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yours* < 1258408041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the := vs = vs == thing is from Algol < 1258408043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err your* < 1258408047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, pascal < 1258408052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pascal only had := and = < 1258408056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where = was comparison < 1258408073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where in there is ==? < 1258408077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, Algol had := (dereference and assign), = (always be the same as, e.g. defining a constant), == (compare) < 1258408085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is no == in there < 1258408095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing == is Go's equality operator even though it isn't used in that program < 1258408100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the basis that they're using = for something else < 1258408125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::= is define-and-set < 1258408128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(minimal "type inference") < 1258408128 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you've used = already and you're showing a willingness for equality and assignment to be different, you're likely to make comparison == unless you really want to screw with people's minds < 1258408135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and == and =? < 1258408141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equality and assign to existing var < 1258408152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258408155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see, told you; it's often possible to deduce language syntax without seeing the whole thing < 1258408161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "meh" < 1258408178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gopaste.org/view?paste=D4gSt2N5yPm2A8yAd0W1iSv4U0fFl7N9 More idiomatic version; syntax-highlighted, but inexplicably missing a comment close. Probably a bug in the pasting site. < 1258408181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should compile :P < 1258408190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, brb < 1258408193 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258408214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I at least came up with snappy names for Feather's assignment and clone operators < 1258408220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assignment is <<=, clone is =>> < 1258408241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they're meant to be relatively long because they're relatively unsafe operations) < 1258408247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, not «= and »=? < 1258408279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: maybe that'll be optional, but worrying about non-ASCII characters would be a distraction at this stage < 1258408283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if I can type « and » just fine < 1258408303 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=» < 1258408328 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-164-32-1.range86-164.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258408333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :«» hm altgr z and altgr x < 1258408334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the concept's that << is meant to be reminicent of the rewind button on a tape recorder < 1258408335 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go learn APL, floob! < 1258408335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1258408349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not altgr+< and altgr+shift+< < 1258408396 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1258408402 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< is shift + , for US keyboard < 1258408404 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1258408411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least for the fi keymap, the level-3-shift of the physical <> key is pretty much taken, given that the pipe is there. < 1258408413 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shift + < is impossible < 1258408435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there are two pipes on a UK keyboard, | (shift-\) and | (altgr-`) < 1258408437 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you somehow make "lshift + , + rshift" acceptable < 1258408455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one is apparently in EBCDIC but not ASCII, and maps onto all sorts of interesting characters on modern-day computers as a result < 1258408463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think this version of X is boring and just maps them onto the same character < 1258408467 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-195-190.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258408481 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: If you had the "altgr" key at all, you could easily put « and » as altgr-shift-, and altgr-shift-., corresponding with the < and >. < 1258408498 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My altgr-shift-. is taken but altgr-shift-, isn't < 1258408507 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do have AltGr, but it's not mapped to anything different by default (that I know of) < 1258408511 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, not in Windows < 1258408535 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have an Alt on the right side of the keyboard, that's different. :-P < 1258408543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < is shift + , for US keyboard <-- yes but it doesn't make sense on a swedish keyboard < 1258408544 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258408553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should know I don't use an US one < 1258408559 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes obviously ;-) < 1258408560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-< is > < 1258408561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: AltGr is mapped to control-alt in Windows, for no obvious reason < 1258408569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that you can type control-alt anyway, and mostly don't want to < 1258408576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1258408577 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not for control-alt-delete < 1258408584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: nope, that one's special < 1258408584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : At least for the fi keymap, the level-3-shift of the physical <> key is pretty much taken, given that the pipe is there. <-- iirc fi = sv for keymap < 1258408586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have ˛ in altgr-shift-, (I guess that's some sort of an inverse-cedilla?) and ¬ in altgr-shift-.; I'm not sure if that new Finnish standard keymap had anything there. < 1258408594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm sure we can agree that http://gopaste.org/view?paste=D4gSt2N5yPm2A8yAd0W1iSv4U0fFl7N9 is totally awesome < 1258408604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, mandelbrot is embarrassingly parallel < 1258408605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/me wonders if it works for control-alt-end, the DJGPP-specific equivalent? or control-alt-backspace if you're running an X server?) < 1258408611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks almost identical to sequential code < 1258408630 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if what works in DJGPP? < 1258408631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that style's annoying to read < 1258408637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: altgr-end rather than control-alt-end < 1258408640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what style < 1258408645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the CSS on that < 1258408649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1258408653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comments are dark grey on black for me < 1258408657 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doubt it < 1258408660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I have that as a dead key under altgr-G (for oGonek?) < 1258408661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah your screen is beyond shit i forgot < 1258408666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ˛, I mean < 1258408668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perfectly readable < 1258408670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I can't see the closing */ of the first comment at all < 1258408679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The not sign I lack < 1258408681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I said it was a bug < 1258408686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the paste site, probably < 1258408688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try reading < 1258408701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : comments are dark grey on black for me <-- even on my shitty laptop display that is perfectly readable < 1258408705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1258408712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the background is brownish-darkgrey < 1258408715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT black < 1258408724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I have black console right next to it < 1258408729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, dark grey on darker grey is rather annoying < 1258408731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is very definitely different < 1258408753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's readable :P < 1258408761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION determines that the parallel mandelbrot has approximately 40 lines of "real" code
< 1258408764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a darker colour on my desktop btw < 1258408767 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, I guessed as much. Incidentally, the new SFS standard puts some sort typographical starting-single-quote thing to altgr-shift-, and something I can't quite make out into altgr-shift-. -- http://www.csc.fi/sivut/kotoistus/kbpropa2rsuomeksi.pdf < 1258408774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ignore } lines and comments, ignore package/import, ignore whitespace) < 1258408797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring the boilerplate for the flags, 34 lines < 1258408803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rule 34 on mandelbrot) < 1258408806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have an OWL-windows version of Mandelbrot on here somewhere, which ofc won't run < 1258408814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, golang.org runs on an http server written entirely in go < 1258408815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i have a spare .exe around that I can run via Wine < 1258408816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so does gopaste.org) < 1258408819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty scalable :P < 1258408820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much is stupid boilerplate? < 1258408821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Looks like the same thing is on both altgr-shift-. and altgr-shift--? < 1258408840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, SFS? < 1258408842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, that it does. I don't know what's up with that. I had somewhere a nice printed-on-shiny-cardboard copy of that new layout, but I don't know where I put it. < 1258408844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. combining dot above or whatever that thing is called. < 1258408857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have that on altgr-., incidentally. < 1258408857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The Finnish standardization organization. < 1258408868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they are changing from "same layout as sv"? < 1258408870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why < 1258408896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're filling in unused parts of the layout, altgr and altgr-shift stuff < 1258408898 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'CAUSE IT'S TWO THOUSAND FLOOBIN' NINE !!! < 1258408906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's fully backwards-compatible < 1258408907 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think it's some sort of Finnish-Swedish combo-project, in fact. And like Deewiant said, they're just adding to the unused parts. < 1258408918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, altgr and altgr-shift is completely filled? < 1258408922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, 207 lines; about 40 to implement zooming, about 40 to draw the Mandelbrot itself, the rest is boilerplate < 1258408928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, at least to me < 1258408935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and OWL was a method to radically cut the amount of boilerplate in the typical Windows app...) < 1258408944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you are an irritating person who uses the most annoying emoticons and never has anything to contribute except the cliche hating of the inevitable march of the world that seemiingly every idiot gets as they grow older, or things only interesting to those who do the same. < 1258408944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OWL == Borland?? < 1258408945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plz stop. < 1258408956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes, a proprietary library thing < 1258408957 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*please < 1258408959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe you're an early adopter without even knowing it. < 1258408967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean you actually have a standard for all of it? < 1258408973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And not just that all your keys generate something. < 1258408974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is it parallel, though? with the cpu-allocation and all automatic? :P < 1258408977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I didn't realise there was an annoyance scale for emoticons < 1258408978 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it's hard to contribute to topics like Go mandelbrot, floobs, etc. < 1258408991 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floobbbb < 1258408994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: So. Say. Nothing. < 1258408994 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and Finnish keyboard layouts < 1258408998 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1258408998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, i can contribute < 1258409003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I doubt it, you have any idea how creating a thread, process, or whatever the other Windows-specific thing is in Windows? < 1258409003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no. I just remapped a lot myself :P < 1258409007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*how complex < 1258409017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: not funny. < 1258409021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In other words, you were just being silly and misleading everyone. < 1258409022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sadly my pi mapped in seems to be MYSERIOUSLY GONE since a few days < 1258409027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep! < 1258409038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster does that a lot. < 1258409039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. < 1258409045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what point he's trying to prove by it < 1258409065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, something about there being no point. < 1258409072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for it
< 1258409089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, so you're misleading and hold up ridiculous conversations for no reason whatsoever. < 1258409089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurry up ehird < 1258409095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :æ < 1258409105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, altgr-ä for me is æ < 1258409107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conversation with you must be one of the most compelling propositions ever dreamt of in the entire history of time. < 1258409114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: altgr-a for me < 1258409120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does altgr-a do for you? < 1258409122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so when is your "deep. very deep" comment going to come? < 1258409125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ª < 1258409130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue what that is < 1258409134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It didn't even try to be deep. < 1258409135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an underlined superscript a < 1258409135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altgr-shift-a is º < 1258409142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more to the point, i have no clue why that is < 1258409148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were just admitting to being a total dick who deliberately obstructs pointless conversation and annoys people for no point. < 1258409150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. < 1258409163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but you only say that line when I'm not *trying* to be deep < 1258409174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also < 1258409180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything I said was true < 1258409181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1258409191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Deewiant, altgr and altgr-shift is completely filled? < 1258409193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is interesting and not boring at all. < 1258409197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) Deewiant, at least to me < 1258409200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely true < 1258409274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"True but misleading: an impossible combination" —AnMaster's implication < 1258409305 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks ehird doesn't suffer flo^H^Hools lightly
< 1258409318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That took you a while to figure out. < 1258409341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I need some icons for ick programs on mac: 32x32, 16x16 and 8x8. All in 255/16/2 colours. The colour sets are predefined < 1258409343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1258409353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard "no icon" one is just ugly < 1258409363 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you got it to work now? < 1258409367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: shouldn't an icon for ick be ugly, just based on the name pun? < 1258409373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Based on what I've read, you guys have also a new standard keylayout (SS 662241/T1:2006 or whatever), and both ours and yours have been (very slightly) modified so that they are compatible, at least as far as the physically-enscribed parts go. (So that at least you don't have to start manufacturing different keyboards for both the fi and sv markets.) < 1258409373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err wait, 8x8 isn't needed < 1258409375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: draw the face of the most bearded creator of intercal < 1258409378 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1258409386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: more bearded? there are only two < 1258409386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I can't draw. why did you think I asked < 1258409394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pixel art is easy! < 1258409400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not to me < 1258409422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think there is high colour too. but I don't have any app supporting editing that < 1258409426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, just draw a facsimile of ais523's face then, it's very boring (no offense lulz) < 1258409430 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hence there is a single well-defined most bearded one < 1258409438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in black, transparent and skin, I guess :P < 1258409444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd clearly be the best icon you could give! < 1258409455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"meh" < 1258409463 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big I? < 1258409465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind-of hard to represent me in a 32x32 icon < 1258409476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple < 1258409479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write < 1258409481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i can prove you wrong < 1258409485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab=8 < 1258409486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in it < 1258409487 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skull and crossbones? poison? nuclear symbol? < 1258409489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1258409492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds wolfram si te
< 1258409500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/alex_smith_wolfram_turing.jpg < 1258409500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can reproduce this semi-accurately in a 32x32 icon < 1258409501 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, lol < 1258409504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you might think it's vaguely similar < 1258409505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*site < 1258409524 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258409532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4-colour (transparent, black, skin, shadowed skin) < 1258409540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got nothing better to do anyway < 1258409548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I still look like that, but the hair's slightly longer atm < 1258409556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's your fault < 1258409570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are only around 10^2466 different 32x32-sized 256-color images; just generate them all and pick a nice-looking one. < 1258409598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A practical solution. < 1258409604 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "IX" as the icon (as in "ick's" or nine in Roman numerals)? < 1258409604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1258409612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... other companies like to hire expensive graphic designers to design icons < 1258409627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, by analogy, we should try to see who will pay us the most to use their attempt at an icon, and use that < 1258409628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1258409635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when are we a company? < 1258409653 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MCMLXXII = 1972, right? that's when Intercal was created, right? < 1258409653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since now. < 1258409659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since CLC started referring to himself in the plural < 1258409662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1258409665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes, INTERCAL-72 < 1258409665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 2^8192, to be exact. < 1258409668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "CLCs"? < 1258409673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could market that as an advertisement opportunity. < 1258409674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we" < 1258409676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258409677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Royal we. < 1258409686 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1258409692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I have done that on some projects before. < 1258409694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLCs are not amused. < 1258409710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even went as far as defining "the team" to consist of one person once < 1258409718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was years agi < 1258409720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ago* < 1258409720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is called insanity < 1258409728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes it is < 1258409741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well. I was going to paste the exact number in decimal form, but 2467 digits was a bit too much, so I just applied a base-10 logarithm. < 1258409807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how many petabyte (or whatever) is that? < 1258409837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yottabytes I guess < 1258409838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The prefixes don't go high enough. < 1258409843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The SI prefixes only go up to 10^24, subtracting 24 out of 2467 doesn't really change it appreciably. < 1258409851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1258409875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the reading is of the SI-scale! < 1258409880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bad bad joke) < 1258409880 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you insist, it's around 10^2442 yottabytes < 1258409880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how small it compresses to
< 1258409895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realisation: I suck at pixel art < 1258409896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think you could recursively compress it to less than 1 MB, for instance < 1258409917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, a directory of all possible 32x32 256-color images?) < 1258409920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's compressible to 2467 decimal digits. < 1258409922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Duh.) < 1258409926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not the number < 1258409928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual set of images < 1258409934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually yes. I just did: "generate the directory of all 32x32 256-color images" < 1258409935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1258409936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1258409937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant what I said. < 1258409938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compressed < 1258409944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a perfectly valid form of compression. < 1258409955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, with a non-custom compression algorithm < 1258409956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a trivial O(1) algorithm to decompress. < 1258409962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather, one of the existing ones, like LZMA or gzip < 1258409964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then we cannot even guess. < 1258409971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, define custom < 1258409973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay, we can guess. < 1258409975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, people have written gzip quines before < 1258409981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's probably possible to get it pretty small < 1258410001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> logBase 2 (10**2467) < 1258410002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinity < 1258410009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each can be compressed to infinity bits. < 1258410012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I guess you could chain the prefixes: it's approximately one exayottayottayotta...[a total of 102 "yotta"s]...yottabyte. < 1258410065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, define what you do when chaining here? < 1258410081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One million million. < 1258410083 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One megabyte == one kilokilobyte < 1258410088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1258410088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: multiply, I suppose < 1258410090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well makes sense < 1258410115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, to use the symbols, 1 EYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYB. (Using the powers-of-ten variants, not the binary ones.) < 1258410136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about with binary ones? < 1258410185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly 4 GiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiB, if I count it right. < 1258410274 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on 2^8192 = 2^(102*80+30+2). < 1258410316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, uh, to use "B" there in the end makes no sense, since I was just counting the number of images there, not the size of the generated data. < 1258410328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if anyone has used a mosquito for a programming language mascot yet
< 1258410336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would seem suitably icky < 1258410372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: kind-of hard to represent < 1258410374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each image is 32*32 = 2^10 bytes, uncompressed, though; so that's then just 4 TiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiYiB of raw data. < 1258410383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may as well use an upside-down nose or something meaningless like that < 1258410410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the DDD debugger icon a mosquito-like thing? Or was it just a boring old-fashioned bug-like bug? < 1258410437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that "the mosquito book" is not programming-related
< 1258410447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The logo at http://www.gnu.org/software/ddd/ is just a buggy bug, at least. < 1258410457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great 5 crashes in as many minutes < 1258410458 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could draw a "K" with ice on it (icey k = i-c-k) < 1258410476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I saw a mosquito icon in some debugger-like context, but it might've been just a toolbar button somewhere. Maybe the TI DSP development studio crashfest? < 1258410534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :walk -> < 1258410678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Code Composer Studio", and at least not in this screenshot. Well, *somewhere*. < 1258410834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258410845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong button but bouncer blocked part :) < 1258410848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads log
< 1258410893 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much to catch up on in here, if that's what you're doing < 1258411104 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't gzip usually compress in blocks of 50kb or something? < 1258411122 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would automatically mean those pics wouldn't compress enough < 1258411129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:27:38 you could draw a "K" with ice on it (icey k = i-c-k) <-- made me think of "KDE on Ice" < 1258411132 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32k, I think < 1258411133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1258411143 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway, in blocks of something < 1258411165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so use lzma or bzip2? < 1258411166 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LZMA is Lempel Ziv Markov A(... gorithm?), so it supports higher dictionaries < 1258411171 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway compressing ridiculous things is an interesting topic < 1258411176 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzip2 only goes to 900k < 1258411185 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other BWT compressors that do more < 1258411187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you sorted them a simple differential encoding followed by runlength would compress them very well < 1258411197 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: http://www.encode.ru/forum/ < 1258411240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it? < 1258411278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be "same number but one more" < 1258411292 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think lzma might theoretically compress the thing quite a lot < 1258411307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it was smart enough to figure out that it repeated every n bytes < 1258411310 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say we have the pictures lexicographically ordered < 1258411319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I said that above < 1258411323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then two adjacent pictures will only have a few bits different < 1258411336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm err are you saying this exact same things < 1258411338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1258411339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads
< 1258411347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly < 1258411350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but almost < 1258411356 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzma doesn't have differential encoding < 1258411369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, maybe I don't know how lzma works < 1258411373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe,* < 1258411374 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how it compresses iirc is by copypasting previous sequences < 1258411397 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LZMA2 method is better at poorly-compressible data < 1258411398 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, we will repeat the same thing quite a lot < 1258411431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1258411442 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, after getting one pic, a massive amount of pictures after it can be done mostly with copy paste < 1258411443 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'nite < 1258411468 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid compression usually can handle this, right? assuming the dictionary is large enough < 1258411505 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid compression? < 1258411510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay wait < 1258411514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remembered one thing < 1258411521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that would be one hell of a tar bomb!" < 1258411522 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of compressing each file separately, it tries compressing them all as one huge chunk < 1258411526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really → < 1258411537 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah obviously we're doing that < 1258411559 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just use 7-Zip and be done with it < 1258411573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean we have so many files we can't use even half a bit for one file < 1258411582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the result will be too huge to fit this universe < 1258411599 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1258411603 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7-Zip can do semi-solid (as can Rar) < 1258411616 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you don't have to (de)compress the whole thing at a time just to get one file < 1258411642 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly worse overall compression but much much faster / leaner < 1258411742 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, because a whole file will never have occurred before (except when it's the end of some file and the beginning of another), we'll usually have to encode a new file in at least two copy paste chunks < 1258411763 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we'll usually need at least a bit for each file < 1258411785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we'd probably need something slightly different < 1258411789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Also, zlib has a sliding window of N kilobytes, not a "split into blocks and compressed separately" scheme. Still, there is a maximum length for the (length, distance) encoding, and yes, you'd certainly end up with at least a bit per file, probably much more. < 1258411827 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, guys, as over at http://www.encode.ru/forum/ ... they are heavy into compression < 1258411828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying everything splits into blocks... or is zlib gzip? < 1258411841 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zlib == deflate == gzip < 1258411845 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258411847 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== zip (mostly) < 1258411854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you allow a bit of wiggle-room in the ==s. < 1258411860 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: i seriously doubt that forum is about this stuff < 1258411868 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about all kinds of compression < 1258411876 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything compression related < 1258411880 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when compressing stuff that can't fit this universe? < 1258411891 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory too < 1258411922 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show me something relevant to this and i'll believe you < 1258411925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even theoretically speaking, I'm not sure it's a horribly interesting question. I mean, it's not *un*interesting, but still. < 1258411934 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: don't believe me, see if I care :-P < 1258411969 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: more interesting than compressing things that *do* fit this universe in any case < 1258412018 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: i'm not saying you should care, i'm saying you shouldn't link irrelevant things < 1258412031 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION apologizes for trying to help ...
< 1258412034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Rugxulo pipes in always, no matter what < 1258412046 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: floobs floobs floobs < 1258412055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally that fails to be funny < 1258412064 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O FLBY? < 1258412164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The counting problem, however falsely implies that a small number of states can't reproduce a larger number of states. -- 256^256 = 3.2e+616 : 1-byte=>1-byte => many bytes -- The counting argument is broken when you include cross referenced meaning, as in the above example, combined with recursive manipulation and disclude the infinite range." Gads, comp.compression is such a kook-pot. < 1258412196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll disclude your infinite range. So to speak. < 1258412301 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sense some cross-referenced meaning in your statement there. < 1258412333 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1258412342 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone translate that into english < 1258412403 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cross-referenced meaning, combined with recursive manipulation" < 1258412473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Yes, uh... it's something about how you first pick one byte, and the a second, and then you can somehow represent a range of 256^256 values, even though there are only 2^16 "states". < 1258412545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, it continues with "ie the truth is only as true as the next truth The difference between the earth being round and the earth being flat is not far apart mathematically and neither is true, the earth is neither round nor flat, but both and neither." I don't think you'll be able to extract much meaningful content from there. < 1258412551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Reading only one line above) Apparently "semi-solid" is the new word for "random access" < 1258412743 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258412797 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1258413165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"going home" < 1258413303 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"floob ... I mean food" < 1258414210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1258414330 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.112.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258414358 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258414403 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is going to kill me < 1258414410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only < 1258414427 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION deliberately used Comic Sans MS
< 1258414434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a comic? < 1258414438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1258414442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what. < 1258414448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sign in Active Worlds < 1258414458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not one that most people will see, admittedly, but still < 1258414469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please kill yourself. < 1258414498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I and some other people will be seeing that sign regularly though < 1258414931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then you will probably die of it, like with smoking. i mean comic sans _is_ lethal, right, otherwise would people be so against it... < 1258414941 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*why would < 1258414998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/iQavU.jpg