←2009-11-27 2009-11-28 2009-11-29→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:03 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah
00:00:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it does mean a power of two iirc?
00:00:11 <ais523> next question: I'm interested to know what you might be working on where you can't assume CHAR_BIT = 8
00:00:13 <ais523> because it sounds fun
00:00:22 <ais523> AnMaster: no, IIRC at least one system has CHAR_BIT == 9
00:00:31 <ais523> with 18-bit ints and 36-bit longs
00:01:19 <AnMaster> <ais523> next question: I'm interested to know what you might be working on where you can't assume CHAR_BIT = 8 <-- actually I can, but I spotted a possible correctness error in cfunge's "print out build info" where it prints out printf(..., sizeof(void*) * CHAR_BIT, sizeof(funge_cell) * CHAR_BIT);
00:01:25 <AnMaster> but it turned out if was correct
00:01:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what would C do on a ternary system?
00:01:53 <AnMaster> "not work"?
00:02:02 <ais523> not define uint16_t nor uint32_t
00:02:07 <ais523> and would have to do arithmetic as if in binary
00:02:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and CHAR_BIT wouldn't be defined?
00:02:17 <ais523> which would imply padding and all sorts of similar nasty tricks
00:02:22 <AnMaster> it would be CHAR_TRIT?
00:02:34 <ais523> CHAR_BIT would be the log base 2 of the max value of an unsigned char plus 1, just as in binary
00:02:41 <ais523> it would be incredibly inefficient, of course
00:02:47 <AnMaster> heh
00:02:57 <AnMaster> ais523, so basically it would emulate a binary system?
00:03:16 <ais523> yes
00:03:42 <AnMaster> ais523, does ternary intercal do the arithmetics in ternary or in binary?
00:03:50 <AnMaster> I mean, internally
00:03:56 <ais523> AnMaster: the INTERCAL writes it as ternary
00:04:05 <ais523> internally there's a lot of *3, /3, %3
00:04:07 <ais523> and loops
00:04:12 <AnMaster> ah
00:04:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well internally was what I meant
00:04:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I still think .1i should exist :/
00:05:05 <AnMaster> as well as the whole way up to .32i
00:05:09 <AnMaster> at least
00:05:17 <ais523> AnMaster: extrapolating, that would mean there were no operators and all constants would have the value 0
00:05:24 <ais523> and be an infinite number of digits long
00:05:32 <ais523> that makes so little sense I might add it
00:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about .0i?
00:05:47 <AnMaster> and .-1i?
00:06:05 <AnMaster> the last one is probably about as silly as turkybomb
00:06:07 <ais523> AnMaster: I think those actually would be impossible, or at least there would be no way to make them happen
00:06:15 <ais523> actually, base -2 is a lot saner than base 0
00:06:21 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
00:06:27 <AnMaster> what on earth is base -2
00:06:43 <ais523> e.g. 8 = (-2^4) + (-2^3)
00:06:50 <ais523> so 8 is 11000 in base -2
00:06:59 <AnMaster> ais523, is that two-complement?
00:07:01 <ais523> you'll find all positive and negative integers have a unique representation
00:07:07 <ais523> it isn't two's complement, it's base -2
00:07:18 <ais523> just define it with the generic equations for arbitrary bases, and you'll find it works
00:07:33 <quantumEd> base 0????
00:07:35 <AnMaster> wait, you don't need any special storage for negative...err positive numbers?
00:07:45 <ais523> quantumEd: I don't believe that makes sense
00:07:49 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is -8 in base -2?
00:07:52 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't need special storage for negative /or/ positive
00:07:55 <ais523> -8 is just 1000, of course
00:08:02 <ais523> because it's (-2)^3
00:08:09 <AnMaster> what about 9 and -9 then?
00:08:26 <ais523> 9 would be 11001, -9 would be 1011
00:08:32 * AnMaster can't figure out the storage scheme that makes it work
00:08:38 <quantumEd> storage??
00:08:48 <AnMaster> well whatever
00:08:56 <AnMaster> ais523, so if there are two leading ones it will be positive?
00:09:20 <ais523> AnMaster: no, depends on odd/even location
00:09:21 <AnMaster> however, shouldn't those be "minus ones"
00:09:25 <AnMaster> rather than "ones"
00:09:29 <ais523> and no, those are 1s
00:09:38 <AnMaster> ais523, why not minus ones
00:09:38 <ais523> you could do the same thing with 0 and -1 as the digits, but 0 and 1 is more conventional
00:09:41 <ais523> and easier to write
00:09:45 <AnMaster> hm true
00:09:53 <AnMaster> ais523, is .3i balanced ternary?
00:09:55 * Sgeo is a Stargate: SG-1 addict
00:10:12 <ais523> AnMaster: as you should know, INTERCAL doesn't put any interpretation on bitstrings/tritstrings usually
00:10:25 <ais523> it's unbalanced ternary for the purposes of WRITE OUT, READ IN, and # though
00:10:37 <ais523> which are AFAIR the only places you can tell
00:10:41 <AnMaster> ah hm right
00:13:36 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway .-2i sounds like a nice idea
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00:14:15 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and for .1i I think mingle would be addition
00:14:16 <AnMaster> right?
00:14:47 <ais523> no, because you're mingling two infinite streams of zeros
00:14:50 <ais523> into another infinite stream of zeros
00:14:55 <ais523> select likewise doesn't produce useful results
00:15:02 <AnMaster> hm right
00:15:20 <AnMaster> what about balanced binary? You have +.5 and -.5
00:15:32 <AnMaster> (I'm not sure this makes sense at all)
00:16:06 <ais523> AnMaster: that's binary shifted one bit
00:16:07 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
00:16:19 <ais523> because halving values is just the same as moving one digit to the right
00:16:19 <AnMaster> ais523, no, half a bit?
00:16:33 <quantumEd> base 1
00:16:37 <ais523> wait, +.5 or -.5? oh, that's like binary where each digit is +1 or -1
00:16:42 <ais523> which means you can't have finite numbers at all
00:16:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well, what about balanced binary then?
00:16:59 <AnMaster> is it even possible?
00:17:01 <ais523> you can't do it
00:17:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm can you do balanced for any even base at all?
00:17:57 <ais523> yes, all the odd ones
00:18:03 <AnMaster> XD
00:18:06 <ais523> also, I think all bases above 2, but it's unbalanced balanced
00:18:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, hm can you do balanced for any even base at all? <ais523> yes, all the odd ones
00:18:19 <ais523> as in, you can do base 4 with -1, 0, 1, 2
00:18:19 <AnMaster> all the odd even ones?
00:18:34 <AnMaster> ais523, eh? How is 4 odd?
00:18:48 <AnMaster> oh
00:18:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, I think all bases above 2, but it's unbalanced balanced
00:18:57 <AnMaster> right
00:19:24 <AnMaster> ais523, what about fractional bases?
00:19:28 <AnMaster> or even irrational ones
00:19:51 <ais523> AnMaster: the issue there is you either have some numbers unrepresentable if you round down with the number of digits
00:19:58 <ais523> or more than one representation for numbers, if you round up
00:20:09 <ais523> but in the second case it's often possible to put a restriction on that makes them unique
00:20:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is that for irrational you mean?
00:20:20 <AnMaster> or for fractional?
00:20:21 <ais523> base fibonnacci, for instance, is pretty close to base golden ratio
00:20:26 <ais523> AnMaster: either, doesn't matter
00:20:45 <AnMaster> ais523, hm some numbers are unrepresentable in integer bases too. Like pi
00:20:55 <AnMaster> so I'm not sure how this makes a difference?
00:20:57 <ais523> not really, it just takes an infinite number of digits
00:21:06 <ais523> I mean, you can't even get to within arbitrary accuracy
00:21:13 <AnMaster> ah
00:21:17 <ais523> e.g. if you have digits 0, 1, 2 in base pi, there's no way to get within 0.01 of 3.1
00:21:42 <AnMaster> ais523, you could make a fraction in base pi?
00:21:56 <AnMaster> well
00:22:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it would go on for an infinite number of digits if representing a rational
00:22:02 <AnMaster> pi-imals
00:22:04 <AnMaster> I guess
00:22:10 <ais523> just like integral bases go onto an infinite number of digits if representing pi
00:22:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure.
00:22:15 <ais523> there'd be more than one way to do it, too
00:22:19 <ais523> assuming digits 0, 1, 2, 3
00:22:23 <AnMaster> oh?
00:22:46 <ais523> AnMaster: imagine if decimal had digits 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
00:22:49 <AnMaster> this bit about there being more than one way is interesting
00:22:51 <ais523> you could represent 10 either as 1 0 or 10
00:22:59 <ais523> it's the same concept, just less obvious
00:23:17 <AnMaster> oh
00:23:19 <AnMaster> right
00:23:46 <AnMaster> ais523, less obvious indeed.
00:24:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure this is a bad thing in an esoteric context however
00:35:44 * ais523 signs petition against the law that would give Peter Mandelson a dictatorship over the UK
00:35:54 <ais523> although the petition wasn't even targeting the law for that reason
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01:09:20 <AnMaster> ais523, who is that
01:09:31 <ais523> AnMaster: a relatively infamous politicain
01:09:31 <AnMaster> and what sort of law would give anyone a dictatorship?
01:09:45 <ais523> AnMaster: a law that let a specific person amend it with minimal safeguards
01:09:59 <ais523> it's been done in Nomic so many times that it's easy to recognise in actual law
01:10:17 <AnMaster> ais523, is that even allowed by the constitution?
01:10:30 <ais523> AnMaster: the UK doesn't have a written constitution
01:10:44 <ais523> and given that it's a new law, it would just be amending all the bits that prevented that happening normally
01:10:49 <ais523> new laws take precedence over old
01:11:07 <ais523> (although the UK has a constitution formed by laws and precedences, there's no special restriction on amending it)
01:11:14 <AnMaster> heh
01:12:31 <AnMaster> ais523, such a suggested law would surely create lot of criticism in newspapers?
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01:12:43 <AnMaster> and other media
01:12:55 <ais523> AnMaster: except that it's part of an anti-copyright-infringement law
01:13:03 <ais523> and I suspect the newspapers want the law itself to pass
01:13:09 <AnMaster> ...
01:13:32 <ais523> for some reason politicians seem unaware of the possibility that you don't have to accept or reject an entire law, you can amend bits
01:13:56 <AnMaster> ais523, what about EU level? Surely it would somehow be stopped there?
01:14:11 <ais523> possibly, if they notice
01:14:15 <ais523> it might be worth telling them
01:14:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yes exactly. Go do that?
01:15:33 <AnMaster> ais523, also, might be worth emigrating somewhere. Noway or Switzerland maybe?
01:15:38 <AnMaster> (neither are in EU iirc)
01:15:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not planning to emigrate
01:16:02 <ais523> and I think that given how mostly unpopular Mandelson is, if he started passing arbitrary laws the government would just get overthrown by force
01:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how did he managed to become elected then
01:16:34 <AnMaster> if he is so unpopular
01:17:02 <ais523> he wasn't
01:17:05 <ais523> he was appointed to the house of Lords
01:17:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what does that mean. I forgot how UK politics work
01:17:31 <ais523> there's two houses of parliament
01:17:36 <ais523> the commons, which is completely elected
01:17:37 <AnMaster> right
01:17:41 <ais523> and the lords, which is completely unelected
01:17:45 <AnMaster> um
01:17:47 <ais523> traditionally, it was hereditary
01:17:51 <AnMaster> and nowdays?
01:17:53 <ais523> as in, if your parents were lords, so were you
01:17:55 <ais523> nowadays, it's a mess
01:18:04 <AnMaster> meaning?
01:18:18 <ais523> there was a huge scandal recently where Lords memberships were allegedly paid for
01:18:30 <AnMaster> that's no democracy...
01:18:44 <ais523> also, it's generally accepted that the government can get anyone into the Lords they want to
01:18:49 <ais523> if they need them to have political power somehow
01:18:54 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, and not intended to happen either
01:18:56 <ais523> the police got involved
01:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean the house of lords in general is undemocratic
01:19:36 <ais523> yes, but it's strangely often saner than the commons
01:19:39 <AnMaster> having such a thing should disqualify UK as being counted as a democracy
01:19:55 <ais523> at least hereditary lordships tended not to have an agenda
01:20:02 <ais523> and so actually made decent decisions as a result
01:20:05 <AnMaster> ais523, <insert famous quote by Churchill>
01:20:41 <ais523> anyway, the lords is powerless in theory because laws are passed only if both houses agree, or if the commons makes the same decision three times it overrides the lords whatever they say (remarkably recent rule, that one)
01:21:39 <ais523> heh, technically he's Baron Mandelson now
01:21:44 <ais523> I think the whole hereditary thing got reversed
01:21:52 <ais523> in that you get a title when you become a Lord, rather than the other way round
01:23:14 <AnMaster> "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." strangely enough http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill does *not* list it
01:24:05 <AnMaster> ais523, does that include people like famous artists and such that become "sir"?
01:24:17 <ais523> no, that's knighthood
01:24:25 <ais523> it's an honour given by the Queen, for the purpose of honouring people
01:24:36 <AnMaster> ah. so it is not related?
01:24:59 <ais523> yep, unrelated
01:25:32 <AnMaster> in the traditional Swedish system they were related (iirc), thus the confusion
01:25:40 <ais523> hmm... ehird would probably be highly amused to know that Lord Mandelson was the Baron of Hartlepool
01:25:45 <ais523> I mean, Hartlepool!
01:25:49 <AnMaster> Hartlepool?
01:25:52 <AnMaster> never heard of it
01:26:13 <AnMaster> would have been funnier if it was that small place where ehird lives though
01:26:26 <ais523> oh no
01:26:31 <ais523> I doubt there even is a Baron of Hexham
01:27:08 <AnMaster> ais523, is Hartlepool a small place?
01:27:10 <ais523> wow, there was as well (isn't one currently)
01:27:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it's large enough that people have heard of it
01:27:19 <ais523> but small enough that they can't remember wh
01:27:21 <ais523> *why
01:27:26 <Pthing> baron wasn't a very high kind of noble
01:27:30 <Pthing> baron was line manager of nobles
01:27:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the new place where ehird moved though?
01:28:03 * AnMaster forgot the name of it
01:28:04 <ais523> Aubrey Geoffrey Frederick Rippon, Baron Rippon of Hexham
01:28:09 <ais523> AnMaster: it's allegedly a very small village
01:28:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah
01:28:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so there should be a duke of it
01:28:28 <AnMaster> just because
01:28:51 <AnMaster> (isn't duke one of the higher ones?)
01:28:59 <ais523> I think so, not sure
01:30:02 <Pthing> duke is the highest you can get without being a king or prince or something
01:30:24 <Pthing> princes tend to collect duchies
01:31:53 <AnMaster> by the way. what exactly is the difference between an emperor and a king?
01:31:59 <AnMaster> apart from the name
01:34:17 <Pthing> emperors are supposed to be above kings
01:34:30 <Pthing> emperor is a sort of king-of-kings type arrangement
01:34:39 <AnMaster> Pthing, so you could have several kings under a single emperor?
01:34:45 <Pthing> yes, plausibly
01:35:02 <Pthing> the emperor may be those kings, however
01:35:08 <AnMaster> Pthing, I thought both were "head of state" technically though?
01:35:13 <AnMaster> Pthing, hah!
01:35:37 <Gregor> HEY GUYS would you mind if I asked whether I could ask a question regarding permission to inquire about whether I may ask a question?
01:35:41 <Pthing> then you have the situation of like the british empire
01:35:58 <Pthing> where victoria became empress when she became Empress of India
01:36:05 <Pthing> in addition to being Queen of the United Kingdom
01:36:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, I did that before
01:36:15 <AnMaster> duh
01:36:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, I think it was the same number of iterations
01:36:33 <AnMaster> * oklofok has changed the topic to: don't ask to ask. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
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01:36:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, there ^
01:37:09 <Gregor> I have four, you have three.
01:37:12 <Gregor> SO I WIN.
01:37:55 <AnMaster> Gregor, I was faster. So I win
01:38:17 <Gregor> Your girlfriend told me that, but she elided the "I win" part.
01:38:33 <Gregor> (See what I did there hyuk hyuk)
01:38:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, you mean she just said "so"?
01:39:19 <Gregor> WELL PLAYED SIR
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01:42:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, I don't play. I'm always deadly serious.
01:42:49 <Gregor> Funny, your girlfriend also said that. (OK, this one doesn't work as well but gimme a break, you're not giving me much material)
01:45:17 <AnMaster> Gregor, nor is she. Due to not existing.
01:53:00 <AnMaster> night →
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04:15:59 <augur> so
04:16:01 <augur> sup guys
04:16:04 <augur> hows it goin
04:22:35 <yiyus> fine
04:23:10 <augur> i dont know you. :|
04:23:38 <Gregor> augur distrusts everyone he doesn't know.
04:23:49 <augur> unless hes hot and has a big cock.
04:24:36 <Gregor> So long as you've got your priorities straight. Or, y'know, not so straight.
04:26:05 <augur> so i learned a bit today about dependent types
04:26:16 <Gregor> Goodie.
04:26:19 <augur> and ive decided that types should be first class, just for fun
04:26:42 <Gregor> So, prototypes.
04:27:43 <augur> no what
04:27:48 <Gregor> 'cuz I wurve prototypes.
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04:28:27 <Gregor> Prototypes, the brief: Every object has a prototype. That prototype is another object. To look up a method, you first check if the object itself has it, then if it doesn't, check its prototype (and its prototype, and its prototype, etc etc)
04:28:37 <augur> i know what prototypes are
04:28:40 <Gregor> Oh
04:28:44 <augur> but i mean real first class types
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04:28:46 <Gregor> I figured you didn't 'cuz you said "no what" :P
04:28:55 <Gregor> Just not typish enough for you?
04:29:00 <augur> no
04:29:05 <augur> i mean like a real type system
04:29:09 <Gregor> Right.
04:29:18 <augur> i eman, your junk could be prototypes, i dont care, thats details
04:29:23 <augur> i just like the idea of stuff like
04:29:25 <augur> oh, say
04:29:40 <augur> functions from types to functions over that type
04:30:02 <Gregor> Fair enough.
04:30:08 <augur> like in system f
04:30:49 <augur> \\a -> \x :: a -> x
04:31:00 <augur> which takes a type and returns an identity function for that type
04:31:08 <augur> or dependent types
04:31:09 <Gregor> Yesh.
04:31:09 <augur> like
04:31:22 <augur> \n -> List n
04:31:33 <augur> which takes a number and returns the type of lists of length >= n
04:31:42 <augur> or just type-to-type functions
04:32:01 <augur> its cool
04:32:04 <augur> dependent types especially
04:32:39 <coppro> augur: I've wanted to make a language with first-class types for a while
04:32:40 <augur> i had this idea of constructing a programming language that would be able to catch all sorts of errors by doing a sort of back-calculation of what might go wrong
04:33:20 <coppro> Though I wasn't looking at a functional approach
04:33:28 <augur> e.g. it would look at every single use of a function and say, ok, suppose this spits out an error, lets trace back where all the values could come from that are related to that error
04:33:50 <augur> coppro: when you think about it, Gregor is kind of right; prototypes are first class types
04:33:56 <augur> so are Class objects in Ruby and Smalltalk
04:34:07 <augur> but its hard to define new Class objects derived from old ones
04:34:23 <Gregor> There are lots of ways of making types first-class that aren't prototypes, and even have a prayer of static analysis :P
04:34:26 <Gregor> I just like prototypes :)
04:34:28 <coppro> Prototypes in what sense?
04:34:32 <augur> and its hard to define a prototype that is "a thing that is not this other thing"
04:34:58 <augur> unless ofcourse your prototype logic has some interesting fundamentals
04:35:03 <Gregor> coppro: Prototype-based object systems.
04:35:28 <augur> like a propositional aspect where you can construct a new object and make assertions about it such as opposite-of
04:35:43 <augur> or not-equal-to
04:36:01 <augur> which sort of derives onto everything else regardless of whether or not they were explicitly prototyped off this object
04:36:26 <coppro> hmm.. I don't know of this concept
04:36:34 <coppro> or better, language?
04:36:46 <augur> which concept?
04:36:49 <augur> prototype OO?
04:36:51 <coppro> yeah
04:36:53 <augur> Self, JavaScript
04:36:56 <coppro> oh, right
04:36:57 <augur> javascript does it poorly tho
04:36:58 <coppro> urgh
04:37:10 <augur> think of it like this: object literals + copy
04:37:10 <coppro> now that you give me an example, I know what you mean
04:37:35 <augur> speaking of
04:37:44 <Gregor> Yeah, JavaScript is a suckfest :)
04:37:48 <Gregor> But I love it.
04:37:51 <augur> ive been trying to think of ways to construct a prototype logic
04:40:15 <Gregor> Plof takes prototypes around another twist.
04:40:19 <Gregor> But that's beside the point.
04:43:35 <augur> gregor, wanna work on a prototypal logic?
04:43:57 <Gregor> Perhaps.
04:50:14 <augur> i want to try to construct a form of logic that employs prototypes rather than the normal set of inference tools
04:50:17 <augur> dunno how it'd work but
04:53:42 <Gregor> Inference over prototypes? You could probably dance in that direction with something involving abstract interpretation, but inference is usually most successful in languages with limited state (that is, functional languages), whereas prototypes are basically pointless without state, so hmmmm.
04:54:03 <Gregor> Not that it's unresolvable, 'ts just an uphill battle.
04:54:48 <augur> no no by inference i mean like
04:55:08 <augur> logics usually let you do various sorts of calculations and stuff
04:55:14 <augur> of interesting sorts
04:55:31 <augur> and prototypes can potentially let you do different sorts of calculations
04:56:01 <augur> an example is stuff like typical vs. atypical behaviors
04:56:33 <augur> unless otherwise specified, you can infer that any given dog will bark, have fur, four legs, etc.
04:56:35 <Gregor> Heh, totally different direction.
04:56:35 <augur> because the prototypical dog does
04:56:41 <Gregor> Yesh.
04:56:53 <augur> and having three legs doesnt make something not a dog, it makes it an atypical dog
04:57:28 <augur> im just thinking of how to capture facts about human cognition and the problems of traditional necessary-and-sufficient-conditions definitions of things
04:58:21 <Gregor> Well, presently I'm thinking of how to sleep.
04:58:26 <Gregor> I believe the first step is to go to bed.
04:58:29 <Gregor> So baheeeeeeee
04:58:38 <augur> :P
04:58:40 <augur> night
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10:33:21 <AnMaster> <Gregor> Prototypes, the brief: Every object has a prototype. That prototype is another object. To look up a method, you first check if the object itself has it, then if it doesn't, check its prototype (and its prototype, and its prototype, etc etc) <-- what about the top prototype?
10:36:56 <AnMaster> Gregor, when did you begin spelling "yes" as "Yesh" instead?
10:46:42 <oklofok> there's obviously an object that's the prototype of the first ones
10:47:01 <oklofok> which is its own prototype, in case the designers wished to make it follow the same pattern.
10:47:22 <oklofok> i mean not that i know anything about prototyping
10:50:40 <oklofok> augur: in a language of mine i had a sort of prototyping using "Cat is Dog but ...", most things were just data, because it was used for making maps for a game, so it was nice to be able to give a few properties things usually have and just say but if one is slightly different
10:50:48 <oklofok> dunno if that's at all close to what you meant
10:57:19 <oklofok> really i just wanted to mention my but
11:12:33 <AnMaster> oklofok, the problem with an object being it's own prototype is that you can get an infinite loop when looking up a method that turns out to not exist.
11:12:39 <AnMaster> like, if you made a typo
11:13:00 <AnMaster> unless you do some sort of cycle detection
11:13:43 <AnMaster> I'm not sure how bad the added overhead for cycle detection would be, but calling a method would probably be a very common operation.
11:14:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, prototyping for game world objects isn't uncommon. Seen that several times before in MUDs and similar
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11:44:54 <oklofok> AnMaster: yeah it'd be really hard to special case that one object
11:45:12 <AnMaster> oklofok, that's cheating!
11:45:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, because then it wouldn't have itself as prototype *in practise*
11:46:25 <AnMaster> practice*
11:46:50 <oklofok> also cycle detection can be done with O(1) overhead in non-threaded code, just take some number that represents "now", and tag all the things you check for methods with it, cycle = now-tagged prototype
11:47:23 <oklofok> we just need one tag field for each object
11:47:32 <AnMaster> oklofok, you would need to untag afterwards, to prepare for next lookup?
11:47:36 <oklofok> no
11:47:40 <AnMaster> oklofok, how comes?
11:47:52 <oklofok> that's why "number representing now", and not "boolean"
11:48:25 <AnMaster> oklofok, well okay, that would break if system clock was corrected by something like ntp
11:48:51 <oklofok> yes, if you're a fucking retard and actually use current time
11:48:53 <AnMaster> well I guess you could use a incrementing counter
11:48:57 <oklofok> yeah
11:49:03 <oklofok> you could not be a retard
11:49:08 <oklofok> sorry, a bit edgy today
11:49:10 <oklofok> :P
11:49:15 <oklofok> eating time! ->
11:49:15 <AnMaster> still, it isn't O(1) in threaded code right?
11:49:34 <oklofok> well umm, you'd probably have a lock when checking for methods anyway.
11:49:40 <AnMaster> oklofok, why?
11:49:41 <oklofok> yeah multi
11:50:02 <AnMaster> oklofok, just make the GC lock, you could have concurrent lookups
11:50:17 <AnMaster> you can use multi-read/single-write lock
11:50:32 <AnMaster> and that is only needed when removing objects
11:50:34 <oklofok> well... err... why indeed... if prototypes can never be changed, just added to new objects, then the hierarchy cannot change during method lookup
11:50:36 <AnMaster> not for adding new ones
11:50:39 <oklofok> so actually no need for a lock
11:50:51 <oklofok> so two thread could theoretically be traversing the hierarchy simultaneously
11:50:55 <AnMaster> oklofok, and even if they can you only need to lock for writing, and per-object
11:51:04 <oklofok> so my system doesn't directly solve the problem
11:51:22 <AnMaster> so you can have multiple-read/single-change kind of lock
11:52:06 <AnMaster> of course, per object locking would probably have higher overhead than single global lock for changes in practise
11:52:25 <AnMaster> practice*
11:52:50 <oklofok> yeah, the "frozen hierarchy" comment was exactly because i originally thought you'd need a lock for the method lookup, because the hierarchy could change during lookup so that something really weird happens, but the hierarchy actually cannot change at all
11:54:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, if you can do updates atomic you can do it lockless. Like "add method" and "remove method"
11:54:28 <AnMaster> not sure about "change to different parent"
11:54:37 <AnMaster> if that should even be supported
11:56:10 <oklofok> hmm, add method actually can break things, say you first have the whole prototype chain for object A completely void of methods, then add method a() to each object on the chain, now if method lookup is being done while that change is done, then a() will be found at a random ancestor of A, even though logically only A's a() or no a() should be found (if adding of a()'s was atomic)
11:56:46 <oklofok> well anyway i don't know much about thread stuff, and i definitely don't know anything about using them efficiently
11:56:50 <oklofok> so really the eating ->
11:57:36 <AnMaster> oklofok, about that last example, I'm not sure that the behaviour even should be well defined in that case
11:58:05 <oklofok> well now that i think of it, that's just a normal atomic action, nothing specifically related to prototype chains
11:58:15 <AnMaster> multiple-readers/single-writer style of lock per object would however solve it
11:58:24 <oklofok> but obviously if atomicity is in the language, it should be well-defined.
11:58:35 <oklofok> "atomicity"
11:58:36 <AnMaster> (so whould a single global such)
11:59:22 <AnMaster> oklofok, I'm pretty sure you can do it lockless using specialized data structures
11:59:24 <AnMaster> however
11:59:31 <AnMaster> I'm not sure this is a good idea in the general case
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12:55:01 <AnMaster> ~/local/llvm/2.6/include \$ du -sh c++
12:55:01 <AnMaster> 235M c++
12:55:07 <AnMaster> what the fucking hell
12:55:46 <AnMaster> stand for almost all of that
12:56:08 <AnMaster> system gcc doesn't seem to have precompiled headers
13:02:58 <AnMaster> heck more than half of my llvm directory is in the include directory
13:03:10 <AnMaster> 240M out of 430M
14:21:58 <AnMaster> bbl guests
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15:26:59 <MALDEK> hello
15:28:05 <MALDEK> boc empty?
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16:08:07 <MALDEK> esoteric issues?
16:08:43 <MALDEK> anyone on?
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16:18:33 <MALDEK> hello lifeform?
16:18:51 <quantumEd> DUDE
16:19:25 <MALDEK> esoteric topics or different than i thought?
16:20:09 <quantumEd> why is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page down? :(
16:21:09 <MALDEK> quantumed....i dont know...i was looking for a real esoteric chat...is this one?
16:22:07 <quantumEd> yes
16:26:53 <MALDEK> like the secret of the cube and fractal character of nature and no one mocks me?
16:27:38 <quantumEd> I agree with fractal character of nature but I don't know what it is about the cube
16:28:29 <MALDEK> are you interested in this or would it bore you?
16:28:41 <quantumEd> I don't know beforehand
16:28:46 <quantumEd> but I am curious
16:29:44 <MALDEK> ok...little intro: 1. the numbers....you know that opposite sides always make 7...
16:30:18 <quantumEd> 7??
16:30:26 <quantumEd> oh you mean dice
16:30:41 <MALDEK> yes...sorry...lol
16:33:19 <quantumEd> I like you MALDEK
16:33:52 <quantumEd> MALDEK do you know Ramon Llull?
16:34:07 <MALDEK> ....no....who is it?
16:34:20 <quantumEd> he wrote Ars Magna
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16:35:36 <MALDEK> cool...a man who completed what i will not achieve.....i like you too, btw...you are the first who is interested in those things..
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16:37:44 <MALDEK> if you replace the numbers 1-6 by chemical elements according to the periodical system you see balance at its best
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16:38:41 <MALDEK> or 1-6 by holy numbers...1 stands for unity, 2 for dualism and separation and so on...
16:38:58 <quantumEd> and so on? What about 3?
16:39:48 <MALDEK> 3 is the first stable relation (fathermotherchild)...
16:40:51 <quantumEd> probably something to do with computation and knowledge
16:41:02 <MALDEK> 3 is the step to materia....plus/neutral/minus
16:41:25 <MALDEK> 4 is stable materia....but i am not a teacher...i am a seeker
16:41:36 <quantumEd> 5?
16:42:36 <MALDEK> 5 is stable room....pyramid shape or stable life schape
16:42:44 <MALDEK> shape
16:43:02 <quantumEd> 6 is the cube again?
16:43:31 <Pthing> why would you count faces for cubes, but vertices for tetrahedra
16:44:15 <quantumEd> count faces for tetrahedra too then
16:44:54 <MALDEK> if i was sure about what i know i would write a book...lol
16:45:02 <Pthing> there's not much there, really
16:45:14 <MALDEK> where?
16:45:22 <Pthing> in what you're saying
16:45:30 <quantumEd> A cube has 8 sides
16:45:40 <quantumEd> top, bottom, left, right, front, back, in, out
16:45:41 <Pthing> no, it has six
16:45:47 <Pthing> cubes are solid objects
16:46:43 <MALDEK> cubes is a symbol to me of perfect balance
16:47:11 <quantumEd> MALDEK have you studied semiotics?
16:47:46 <MALDEK> not officially
16:50:20 <MALDEK> why?
16:50:58 <quantumEd> just wondered
16:51:18 <quantumEd> I don't know anyone that has
16:52:49 <MALDEK> btw...pthing...if i had to write a program for "world" it would be a cube...space/orientation/balance of opposite powers...how can you say that there is not much there if you havnt spend some time thinking & drawin?
16:53:13 <Pthing> but i have
16:53:47 <Pthing> people have worked out much better ways of talking about geometry and dynamics
16:54:57 <MALDEK> other people....what i know i found out myself...even if it is little and already known...but i dont use third party knowledge
16:55:11 <Pthing> there's a problem, then
16:55:21 <MALDEK> problem?
16:55:41 <Pthing> yeah, ignoring everyone else
16:55:43 <Pthing> why do you do that
16:56:15 <MALDEK> not ignoring.....but to understand you have to start from scratch
16:56:32 <Pthing> no, not really
16:56:33 <MALDEK> if it matches nature then its good
16:56:45 <Pthing> not if it's a very poor match
16:56:47 <quantumEd> :/
16:57:29 <MALDEK> why do you waste lines on low level formated dudes like me then? lol
16:57:48 <Pthing> because I don't think talking to other people is a waste
16:58:01 <MALDEK> right...
16:58:34 <Pthing> whereas somebody who says "i have to work everything out from scratch and so don't use third party knowledge" is saying "i don't want to listen to anybody"
16:58:37 <MALDEK> i ask myself : what would nature do? and it works out...thats enough for me...
16:59:07 <Pthing> then you need better standards
16:59:32 <MALDEK> everybody put also his personal perspective into his view....
16:59:46 <Pthing> you said, quite boldly, you don't use third party knowledge
16:59:59 <Pthing> that is quite a great deal stronger than what you just said, isn't it?
17:00:25 <MALDEK> but i dont see the problem
17:00:48 <Pthing> the problem is you are not really saying much
17:01:02 <Pthing> but you know you're not saying much, you apologise, you say you're just the student, not a teacher
17:01:20 <Pthing> but you have this dislike for "third party knowledge", so in what sense are you really a student
17:03:18 <MALDEK> ok...in school we were told that we work with circles pi and so on....later you find out that you can build maschines with that but thats not what this universe prefers...everyone you ask has its own opinion and still you dont know how dns works for example...
17:03:32 <MALDEK> but i have a head and i can think
17:03:42 <Pthing> the universe doesn't prefer anything
17:04:06 <Pthing> listen, i don't see how what you said follows at all from what I said
17:05:16 <MALDEK> the universe follows rules...those are certain to me...
17:05:41 <Pthing> sure, and people who aren't you have worked out lots of them
17:05:50 <Pthing> ones you'd never work out by yourself
17:05:56 <MALDEK> and i want to discover for myself....there is nothing wrong in that
17:06:08 <Pthing> what is wrong is not listening to other people who have
17:06:21 <Pthing> you needlessly and pointlessly cripple yourself
17:06:41 <MALDEK> because i CAN....thats why we have a mind
17:06:52 <Pthing> You can what
17:07:22 <MALDEK> i can think for myself
17:07:37 <Pthing> sure, but it doesn't mean you can do everything yourself
17:08:11 <MALDEK> stay with me in this....i said THINK not DO
17:08:25 <MALDEK> i dont think to get rewarded
17:08:36 <MALDEK> with prizes or money
17:09:15 <MALDEK> by the way: you know a funny paradox? the peace-nobel-prize....thats how the human world is
17:09:29 <MALDEK> i dont follow that world....
17:09:47 <Pthing> well you should
17:09:54 <MALDEK> although i have to live in it
17:10:42 <MALDEK> can we stop the ego show please ? i am not here for this....lol
17:11:02 <quantumEd> yeah
17:11:30 <MALDEK> yo ed....sorry i got carried away....
17:12:09 <MALDEK> anyway....pthing thanx for that little excursion....lol
17:12:19 <Pthing> it shouldn't be an excursion
17:14:07 <MALDEK> pthing..last line....i am like this because most stuff i learned in school was simply not true...and most scientific explanations follow the trace of money not wisdom..
17:14:33 <MALDEK> but i am always open to people
17:14:41 <MALDEK> not concepts
17:14:47 <Pthing> school is shit, that's true, but it is not all bad
17:14:57 <Pthing> this is how it is with science too
17:15:29 <MALDEK> ed still on?
17:15:40 <Pthing> there's no point in despising it because people get paid to do it
17:16:36 <MALDEK> at least ed likes me..... 8)
17:18:23 <MALDEK> ed?
17:19:17 <MALDEK> mhmm
17:19:27 <quantumEd> so what is 6?
17:25:13 <MALDEK> the complete room so to say...
17:25:40 <MALDEK> sorry...i am a bit confused....the leftovers of pthing-talk
17:26:02 <Pthing> can't think?
17:26:13 <MALDEK> right...you busted me
17:26:34 <MALDEK> no...same story
17:29:05 <MALDEK> 6 is 3 dualities balanced by 90 degree offset...creates the room and the stabelizing powers that something can grow in it
17:29:30 <quantumEd> what do you mean here by something?
17:29:55 <Pthing> and "room" and "creates" and "stabilising" and "powers" and "grow"...
17:29:58 <MALDEK> like a cell
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17:31:01 <MALDEK> or any kind of materia
17:31:26 <Pthing> what is materia
17:31:45 <MALDEK> pthing...are you some kind of mind-officer? karma police?lol
17:31:58 <Pthing> no, just somebody who wants to know how the universe works
17:32:11 <quantumEd> lol
17:32:22 <MALDEK> materia is energy oscillating in grids
17:32:32 <Pthing> what does that mean
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17:33:18 <quantumEd> I think Pthing is just gonna keep fucking this up because in his opinion you are wrong
17:33:22 <Pthing> no
17:33:28 <Pthing> in my opinion he is incoherent
17:33:33 <Pthing> which is why i am asking questions
17:33:51 <quantumEd> well I'm sticking with my guess
17:33:52 <MALDEK> brb.....materia coming on a plate=food=energy...lol
17:34:03 <Pthing> oh, so materia is matter?
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17:40:26 <MALDEK> back...materia comes from mater, latin for mother....its the desciption for focused and stable energetic "cluster"
17:40:46 <Pthing> well okay but you can describe matter in the same way
17:40:58 <Pthing> so why aren't you talking about matter
17:41:23 <AnMaster> MALDEK, err I think you are confused about what this channel is about. It is esoteric *programming* languages
17:41:35 <AnMaster> someone removed that from the topic again
17:41:36 <AnMaster> sigh
17:41:37 <MALDEK> maybe because i am not a native english speaker
17:41:58 <MALDEK> ok master....i get it....
17:42:07 <Pthing> well okay, but then you'll be glad to hear that there is a lot known about the structure of matter
17:42:08 -!- AnMaster has set topic: don't ask to ask. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This channel is about esoteric programming languages. Please keep that bit in topic at all times..
17:42:19 <AnMaster> Pthing, well yes.
17:42:27 <AnMaster> physics is fun
17:42:32 <Pthing> also chemistry
17:42:35 <Pthing> and chemical physics!!!!!!!
17:42:42 <Pthing> also physical chemistry!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:42:46 <AnMaster> Pthing, depends on what level you are talking about
17:42:50 <Pthing> all of them
17:42:52 <Pthing> are super
17:43:29 <AnMaster> Pthing, as long as I don't have to calculate in mole. I got tried of chemistry in school at that point.
17:43:38 <Pthing> moles are easy
17:43:46 <Pthing> it's like
17:43:48 <AnMaster> Pthing, not for me
17:43:50 <Pthing> you get a molecule
17:43:56 <Pthing> BUT THEN YOU GET A HUGE NUMBER OF MOLECULES
17:44:02 <Pthing> and all the numbers work out okay
17:44:51 <MALDEK> ed?
17:45:18 <Pthing> see, the thing is then, the structure of matter is nothing like how you're describing it with these integers
17:45:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, except it turns out you ended up with mol per mm^3 when you wanted microgram per 1000 mole or whatever. And then you realise you won't have time to calculate it correctly before the time limit for the test is up!
17:45:45 <Pthing> AnMaster, well tests are the worst thing
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17:46:11 <AnMaster> Pthing, depends. At university level I had no issues finishing math tests with more than half of the time to go
17:46:36 <AnMaster> but I guess that is because I don't have to actually do much calculation with numbers any more
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17:46:52 <quantumEd> hi
17:47:12 <AnMaster> it is all nicely abstract symbols or such by university. Or it is just trying to prove something
17:47:31 <AnMaster> Pthing, stuff like figuring out induction proofs is a lot easier than calculating with mole
17:47:49 <Pthing> man because that is the saddest thing
17:47:52 <Pthing> it's just units
17:47:56 <Pthing> that's like basic algebra
17:47:57 <AnMaster> what is?
17:47:59 <AnMaster> mole?
17:48:01 <Pthing> yeah
17:48:04 <AnMaster> well yeah
17:48:07 <Pthing> it's just another SI unit
17:48:20 <MALDEK> still here...cool...lets cut out what we were talking abot...something else..why are you interested in semiotics?
17:48:28 <AnMaster> in what?
17:48:43 <quantumEd> MALDER I don't know much at all about it actually, which is why I was wondering if you did
17:49:00 <Pthing> I know a little about it
17:49:06 <Pthing> it's gibberish, but sometimes entertaining gibberish
17:49:44 <Pthing> most useful, ironically, in the human world you don't want anything to do with
17:49:49 <MALDEK> ed: at uni i had semiotics focused on cinema
17:50:03 <Pthing> exactly
17:50:15 <quantumEd> look at this picture, http://scpd.stanford.edu/knuth/images/knuth_don_w200_h352_q60.jpg
17:50:30 <quantumEd> there's such a big space
17:50:53 <Pthing> just like the space on bookshelves because knuth can't fucking finish a simple book series he started in the fucking 60s
17:51:46 <quantumEd> lol
17:51:54 <MALDEK> cant open it
17:52:02 <MALDEK> takes a moment
17:54:57 <MALDEK> ed...ok...headroom and an old man....
17:55:46 <quantumEd> what do you think the headroom means?
17:57:11 <MALDEK> ed...the presence of something invisible
17:58:32 <MALDEK> .#
17:59:19 <MALDEK> ed...what does it mean to you?
18:00:36 <AnMaster> MALDEK, space between head and ceiling?
18:01:11 <MALDEK> master...there is no ceiling....
18:02:57 <MALDEK> ed?
18:05:19 <MALDEK> .
18:06:29 <AnMaster> MALDEK, go indoors then?
18:07:00 <MALDEK> master...you lost me here...what do you mean by indoors?
18:07:50 <quantumEd> MALDEK I wasn't sure what it meant
18:09:03 <MALDEK> ed...more important is what you feel in the first moment...
18:11:23 <MALDEK> but if the picture was a program, i would analize it by reverse-engineering methods...depends...
18:14:03 <MALDEK> is my refresh function that slow?
18:15:33 <MALDEK> ed?
18:15:58 <MALDEK> dinner time? where is the crowd? lol
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18:21:42 <MALDEK> yo ed
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18:33:51 <MALDEK> ed?
18:34:21 <quantumEd> what
18:34:36 <MALDEK> did you get my reply?
18:34:45 <quantumEd> yes
18:34:57 <MALDEK> bored?
18:35:06 <FireFly> ?
18:36:38 <quantumEd> Knuth
18:36:56 <quantumEd> from http://scpd.stanford.edu/knuth/index.jsp
18:38:36 <MALDEK> should i know him? what does he do?
18:38:45 <quantumEd> you don't need to
18:40:17 <MALDEK> are you a student there?
18:40:24 <quantumEd> no
18:42:38 <MALDEK> are you a programmer?
18:42:42 <quantumEd> no
18:43:21 <MALDEK> ok...i get it ...bye
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19:30:00 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Gregor, when did you begin spelling "yes" as "Yesh" instead? <-- Gregor likes cats so much he's turning into one. (see: Mutts)
19:32:26 <oerjan> <MALDEK> like the secret of the cube and fractal character of nature and no one mocks me?
19:32:48 <oerjan> that sounds disturbingly like it could intersect the two meanings of esoteric...
20:06:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi. iwc
20:07:03 <oerjan> indeed
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23:25:19 <AnMaster> hi ais523
23:25:29 <ais523> hi, about to go home
23:25:33 <AnMaster> "almost NULL deferences" are fun
23:25:33 <ais523> so bye, actually
23:25:37 <AnMaster> ais523, cya
23:25:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
←2009-11-27 2009-11-28 2009-11-29→ ↑2009 ↑all