2009-11-01: 00:01:38 * SimonRC goes 00:02:32 AnMaster: btw, re LFS: I might, but I imagine that most of what I pick up will be stuff that doesn't matter due to my design choices (e.g. dynamic linking issues) 00:12:28 11:21:44 why is there a status setting thingy at the top of it 00:12:28 11:21:48 for IM clients 00:12:28 and email. 00:12:39 email has online/offline? 00:12:44 oh 00:12:45 i see, that one 00:12:50 (i thought he meant the messaging menu) 00:12:56 which is linked to it 00:13:12 11:24:20 ais523, argh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/447964 00:13:12 11:24:34 ais523, it seems linked to evolution, But it is in the indicator applet thingy 00:13:13 11:24:42 which iirc is used for other (useful) stuff 00:13:13 The messaging menu IS useful. 00:13:21 11:25:24 it's empathy it's linked to, not evolution 00:13:21 11:25:29 oh, the letter icon 00:13:22 11:25:36 that means new mail arrived, I think 00:13:22 or new IMs 00:13:27 or someone signed in recently 00:13:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:14:00 ehird, it isn't like that VM has evolution set up or anything 00:14:04 nor any IM 00:14:08 Just remove it from the panel. 00:14:10 Easy. 00:14:15 No need to uninstall anything. 00:14:17 Right click. 00:14:17 ehird, isn't it used for other stuff? 00:14:20 No. 00:14:22 mhm 00:14:30 The indicator applet is the meessaging menu. 00:14:33 *messaging 00:14:53 Well 00:14:57 "A small applet to display information from various applications consistently in the panel. 00:14:58 The first revision is focusing on messaging applications. The design specification for the messaging component is available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/" 00:15:05 So currently it's just for email and IM, but it won't be later. 00:19:15 Is the uber-jackal effect in ADOM too weak? 00:19:28 Yes. 00:21:31 I don't know, if ever, if they will ever release the source-codes for ADOM or not. 00:23:20 AnMaster: Can KDE3 desktops view a special desktop with all desktops combined? 00:23:22 dwm can (Mod+0) 00:23:39 What is dwm 00:23:43 A window manager. 00:24:02 O, now I found it. But at first I didn't have the browser open 00:24:02 ehird, no. Where would one have place for it? 00:24:14 that's... so zzo 00:24:18 AnMaster: What does that mean? 00:24:24 Where would one have place? 00:24:25 What? 00:24:35 ehird, view all? at the same time? on the same monitor 00:24:41 some compiz like zoom? 00:24:50 It just arranges all the windows together in dwm. 00:24:52 I look it seems is not too bad 00:24:58 It would be good 00:24:59 In dwm, tags are as much an organisational tool as a screen extender. 00:25:20 However, still if I write, I would write my own, however. (But I might based on others window managers) 00:25:36 (you can name the tags too) 00:25:47 ehird, it would be hard to see them all? 00:25:51 if there are many 00:25:52 like 00:25:56 Sure, they'd be quite small. 00:25:59 But it's a useful overview. 00:26:12 ehird, so less useful than, say, Exposé? 00:26:20 It's not for the same purpose as Exposé. 00:27:25 oh? 00:27:40 The error is in thinking that a tag is a desktop, instead of a means of organising. 00:27:53 Yes, it lets you organise a windowspace bigger than your screen could handle for using an individual window. 00:28:03 But it's also about grouping related windows, which is why you can apply multiple tags. 00:28:20 So mod+0 is like looking at the "actual workspace" that you're organising: you can see every window you have. 00:28:33 Useful if, for instance, you want to make two windows interact briefly. 00:29:06 Incidentally, dwm is a perfectly capable floating WM too. 00:29:07 ehird, you would like gentoo's init system. Quite sane. dependency based. Doesn't use classical run levels much (nothing you think of as an user). Uses instead named ones. "boot" and "default" only normally 00:29:15 yes still sysvinit but you can replace it 00:29:19 with runit or others 00:29:24 more or less supported 00:29:28 (a proper floating WM that is) 00:30:05 you have to bring windows to the top with the keyboard, but you can mod+drag to move, and it's sloppy focus (hover to focus) 00:30:44 The benefits are obvious — the dwm config lets you set certain programs to appear in a separate workspace and with different layouts. 00:30:52 So you could have a workspace for running the GIMP in floating mode. 00:30:54 Voila, no problems. 00:31:22 (Plus it means ex-evilwm junkies can cope. :-P) 00:31:38 never used evilwm. tell me about it 00:32:05 It's just a very minimalist floating manager with no window decorations apart from a one pixel border. 00:32:11 http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/images/cap1.jpg may ring a bell. 00:32:29 can't say it does 00:32:35 http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/ 00:32:39 fizzie used it I believe. 00:33:01 that is the official screenshot? 00:33:08 no wonder it isn't popular 00:33:09 XD 00:37:03 "The launchd daemon is essentially a replacement for init, rc, the init.d and rc.d scripts, SystemStarter" 00:37:05 um yeah 00:37:06 BUT 00:37:09 rc links to 00:37:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_security 00:37:18 what the hell 00:37:29 ehird, ^ 00:37:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:37:38 dunno 00:37:45 night 00:37:51 make that 00:37:56 night → 00:39:22 Incidentally, I rewrote my silly ii script in rc: 00:39:24 #!/bin/rc 00:39:25 for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) { 00:39:25 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:39:25 echo Ding! >in 00:39:25 } 00:39:26 } 00:39:33 Erm, wait 00:39:35 I need to set ifs 00:39:47 #!/bin/rc 00:39:47 ifs=' 00:39:47 ' 00:39:48 for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) { 00:39:48 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:39:48 echo Ding! >in 00:39:50 } 00:39:52 } 00:40:09 More readable, methinks, than the sh version: 00:40:11 #!/bin/sh 00:40:11 tail -n 0 -f out | 00:40:11 while read line; do 00:40:11 if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then 00:40:11 echo "Ding!" >in 00:40:12 fi 00:40:14 done 00:40:23 In fact, I could simplify it further, I think. 00:41:12 Some window managers use alt+drag to move window, but I think only the window manager's key should be used by the window manager. (Which key it is could be configurable in the configuration file) 00:41:25 It's set in config.h with dwm. 00:41:28 Mod is alt by default. 00:41:53 Like, I think the LOGO key should be used by default, but if you don't have that key you could use PRINTSCREEN instead, for example. 00:42:32 Nah, my simplification made it less readable (I changed: 00:42:38 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:42:39 to 00:42:48 if (`{ cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null } <<< $line) { 00:42:50 which is worse.) 00:43:02 I used evilwm, yes; I'm not sure I used it on the main desktop (might have, though), but definitely on that one low-end laptop. 00:43:10 It does the "configure by twiddling the source" thing too. 00:44:21 -!- ehiird has joined. 00:44:22 Well, there's a proper config.h with dwm. 00:44:27 So it's not like you're editing hardcoded things. 00:44:42 rheet 00:44:45 rheeet 00:44:47 aww 00:44:54 It is not too bad 00:45:03 how can you say that without using it? 00:45:10 test 00:47:29 One pixel border is enough (like evilwm and dwm both has). Resizing can be done with wm's key and left button for floating windows, wm's key with right button for tiled windows, and wm's key with middle button to move. For keyboard operation, you can just use wm's key in combination with some other keys (such as arrow keys) 00:48:17 Why have separate buttons for tiling windows only 00:49:00 So that the windows do not have to designated tiled/floating, you can just use them in both ways. So, you can easily switch and stuff however you prefer 00:49:15 Just if you use tiled resize, it will also resize the other windows with adjacent borders too 00:49:23 That's how I would write it, anyways. 00:49:29 There's a sort of a configuration section in evilwm.h too, though it's pretty small and the file contains a lot of other crap, too. Oh, and keyboard bindings are in keymap.h which is pretty editable. (Pretty strangely, though, the combination of modifiers is not configured there, but instead there's a command line flags (-mask1, -mask2, -altmask) to define those.) 00:49:34 Asleep now, though. 00:49:38 In dwm, moving or resizing a window makes it floating. 00:49:55 The only resizing you can do for tiling windows is to make one of the two columns bigger or smaller. 00:50:11 And moving is handled merely by making something either the main window or secondary. 00:50:22 I've never felt the need to manually manage any tiling windows. 00:50:50 OK 00:51:32 It does do mod+right click to resize a floating window, though; never thought to try that. 00:52:48 zzo38: Also, middle button drags are awkward, since it's usually a clickable mouse wheel. 00:53:40 Yes, I know, but I never use the wheel, I only use it to click 00:53:52 I don't like the wheel there 00:53:54 The web is unusable without the wheel. 00:53:58 Or, really, any long document. 00:54:01 Sometimes it is accidentally pushed in one direction or the other 00:54:07 Not if it's a good mouse. 00:54:12 They have good resistance. 00:54:19 No, I use the web without the wheel. I use the page-up/page-down keys to navigate through the document 00:54:38 That just gives me a headache and pisses me off as I try and find where I left off in the last page. 00:54:46 Plus I can't scroll things nicely in my line of sight without a pain. 00:55:26 bah can't sleep 00:55:35 I could drag the scrollbar or use the up/down arrows too if I need more precise scrolling. Another thing I sometimes do, is click and hold the scroll bar and then use either the mouse or keys to scroll, and then move the mouse away from the scroll-bar to return 00:55:37 while read line; do 00:55:37 if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then 00:55:40 usless 00:55:42 useless* 00:55:48 set IFS and do it all in read 00:55:52 no need for cut 00:55:53 At least this works in Windows. Not sure about Linux 00:56:00 AnMaster: Um, do feel free to rewrite that with IFS. 00:56:17 ehird, IFS and read -d of course 00:56:18 zzo38: Dragging the scrollbar is the same as flicking the wheel except more of a pain 00:56:31 ehird, I will tomorrow 00:56:38 AnMaster: Congratulations, the Unix philosophy weeps at your desire to make everything in one program 00:57:01 Is it possible to avoid using PAM with recent kernels? 00:57:04 ehird, when coding python I tried to make all functions as few lines as possible. 00:57:12 ehird, PAM is not related to kernel afaik 00:57:13 That's nice, AnMaster. 00:57:17 Not to me. I would rather have a mouse without a wheel if I could get one 00:57:34 zzo38: I'm just saying that you should consider that most people like their wheel before assigning things to the middle button. 00:57:36 and night, *tries to sleep again* → 00:57:37 I prefer to use the middle button as a middle button 00:57:58 Otherwise you have only two buttons 00:58:08 wait what 00:58:19 zzo38: Clicking with the middle wheel is easy. 00:58:23 I use scrollwheel as scrolling and clicking it for paste 00:58:23 zzo38: But clicking and dragging is not. 00:58:24 ... 00:58:30 ehird, indeed 00:58:40 clicking and dragging is hot. 00:58:41 tilting it for scrolling sideways 00:58:42 You just have to avoid middle-click-drag motions, not middle-clicks. 00:59:00 ehird, clicking and dragging isn't *too* hard 00:59:04 a bit irritating 00:59:06 but can be done 00:59:08 It's something to consider. 00:59:45 I can certainly consider it. But, if someone doesn't like the way I wrote it, they can change it themself 01:00:06 oh yeah I bet you will have a config option for it :P 01:00:15 night *tries again dammit* 01:00:16 I don't need to avoid middle-click-drag 01:00:23 Personally I'm happy that I don't need to rewrite every piece of software before using it because compromises have been made for other people. 01:00:35 And thank $DEITY for that. 01:01:17 I use the web without the wheel. Of course, I have mouseless link-following, so it's a bit more usable... 01:02:04 When I write software, it is generally written for groups of people who prefer it this way, including (but not necessarily limited to) myself. And, it can be Free Software/Open Source so that other people can even modify it, too. 01:02:32 The hardest part with a distro is that compiling the kernel is a must to get it going, but you'll need to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again. 01:02:32 There is a large number of various different software 01:02:38 You can find a different software, too. 01:08:32 -!- madbrain has joined. 01:09:00 -!- sierinjs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:10:52 i wish dwm let you name tags at runtime, although it'd probably be a pain to manage 01:19:21 Woot, at works perfectly 01:22:14 Pretty sure using at is kinda overkill for a clock, though 01:22:37 Could just, you know, have a sleeping process 01:22:41 Does anyone actually use at? 01:22:56 Still, at least the script is quite nice: 01:23:01 now=( $(date +'%H %M') ) 01:23:01 h=${now[0]} 01:23:01 m=${now[1]} 01:23:02 01:23:02 if [ $m = 59 ]; then 01:23:03 h=$((h + 1)) 01:23:04 m=0 01:23:06 else 01:23:08 m=$((m+1)) 01:23:10 fi 01:23:12 01:23:14 at $(printf %02i%02i $h $m) < xsetroot -display :0 -name $h:$m 01:23:18 bash /home/ehird/foo 01:23:20 EOF 01:23:44 well, actually, the version the VM is running has no space in the h= line's $((...)), but that's... quite minor 01:25:24 Why do virtual worlds die? 01:25:32 Cybertown, I blame on IVN 01:25:45 AW, I can blame on the insane price increase in 2002 01:26:06 -!- zzo38 has quit ("The next-to-last (and only) movement was a one-voice fugue."). 01:26:13 But why Worlds.com ? They were active in 2001. No price increases, no new limitations on what non-payers can do 01:26:22 Go there now, and there's no one there 01:26:28 because everyone playing them left high school and realised they sucked 01:27:53 It occurs to me that I can't imagine SL living on with maybe only 113 people online at a time 01:28:15 (That's how many people are on AW right now) 01:29:04 SL servers use more computational resources than AW servers (I think). I can't imagine SL staying alive with as few users as AW, or CT, or Worlds.com 01:29:48 soon SL will die too. 01:30:16 ehird, and my fear is that when SL loses members, the servers themselves will shut down. 01:30:23 Everything will be inaccessible 01:30:24 Yes they will. 01:30:36 AW still has (a few) users, the servers are still running 01:30:40 Same with CT, same with Worlds 01:30:55 But I can't see SL surviving in the same way 01:30:55 SL, on the other hand, is a business that isn't on crack and is making money. 01:31:03 The others are steadily draining cash, yum yum. 01:31:07 They'll die soon too. 01:31:10 Eventually. 01:31:37 I doubt that CT, AW, and Worlds take as much money to run as SL 01:31:50 I'd imagine that CT particularly is very cheap 01:32:02 Just a webserver, and an ancient Blaxxun Community Server thingy 01:32:37 (Didn't stop them from moving to a subscription model, turning CT from a thriving community to a ghost town) 01:34:48 Wow, I forgot that xterm had a menu. 01:35:08 * Sgeo has a plan that would allow the AW community to preserve all the buildings for private exploration if AW ever shuts down 01:35:28 Requires a bit of reverse-engineering though.. although it's reverse-engineering that's been done before 01:44:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:48:52 "I've never quite figured out Google's interface. I just wait for the lmgtfy links." —reddit 01:54:05 * oerjan failed to avoid a facepalm there 01:56:23 ehird, it's a joke... I hope 01:56:36 Sgeo: Did I imply it wasn't? 01:56:49 Why did oerjan facepalm? 01:57:03 Because. 01:57:25 Sgeo: Reflex. 01:58:16 a learned reflex, it would seem, since i never did it before getting here... 02:13:31 yo 02:15:49 wait you physically facepalm? 02:16:11 i didn't know that's also a real life thing, thought it was just a word 02:16:24 http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/1582/original/picard-facepalm.jpg 02:16:45 umm star trek isn't real life 02:16:46 ... 02:16:48 fucking nerds 02:17:05 i was giving an example, mr whiney bitch mcbitcherson 02:19:02 WELL EXCUSE ME FOR BEING A FUCKING RETARDED BITCH 02:19:22 NO WAY 02:19:24 I WILL GENOCIDE YOU 02:19:28 GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH 02:19:36 so i have this binary linear code 02:19:37 RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE 02:19:40 right 02:19:41 and? 02:19:53 word length 7 02:20:05 and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3 02:20:21 need to prove 1111111 belongs to the code 02:20:51 i would ask #math but nobody knows anything there 02:20:53 :\ 02:21:02 you'll have to define some terms... 02:21:05 alrighty 02:21:08 linear code? 02:21:17 for a start :D 02:21:23 the code forms a vector space over the field {0, 1} 02:21:39 and weight? 02:21:47 sum of 1-bits for binary codes 02:22:17 this is pretty much all i know about coding theory atm, first homework set... so, tell me if you have ideas. 02:22:57 i don't know about coding theory but i think i understand the question 02:23:48 yes, but i think it's the solution that's the hard part! 02:24:10 well actually that's not always true 02:24:22 so i don't know if there are relevant theorems in your course beyond the obvious xoring things together 02:24:49 nothing relevant yet. 02:25:07 well we've gone over what it means for it to be a vector space 02:25:30 that there's a base... but you probably understand vector spaces, so. 02:25:31 in this case (with {0,1}) it only means you are closed under xor'ing bitstrings 02:25:35 yes 02:25:44 + 0000000 is there 02:25:51 that's x xor x 02:26:06 i mean it's not an empty set 02:26:11 ah right 02:26:18 i keep thinking you can make errors 02:27:06 oh wait 02:27:06 anyway the fact we know there's a base isn't really that direct a consequence of that 02:27:14 hm no 02:27:47 of course if you put them on a matrix and do some elimination, it's trivial, and also if you know anything about vector spaces... but just knowing closed under xor doesn't obviously say "base exists" to me 02:28:15 the problem is 02:28:15 well clearly you can assume those words of weight 3 are a base 02:28:22 "OpenSSL is written by monkeys" 02:28:23 Indeed it is 02:28:27 wait you can? :D 02:28:36 don't tell me why 02:28:39 * oklopol ponders 02:28:48 although you may have to throw away some codes 02:29:18 you will have to. 02:29:24 if there were 7 vectors in the base 02:29:29 it would be the whole space 02:29:39 obviously 02:29:51 hm oh right wait 02:29:59 i was thinking wrong, maybe 02:30:23 about them being a base? 02:30:26 yeah 02:30:46 there can be ones with smaller weight 02:31:32 although for instance you can't have many ones, for instance five ones gives you 10 vectors of weight 3 02:31:58 mhm 02:32:05 oh wait 02:32:10 i tried to do this sorta elimination to figure out the dimension of the space, but that's pretty much as far as i got :P 02:32:34 what i should have said is you can assume your base is contained in those weight 3 codes 02:33:01 err 02:33:11 because throwing out anything not generated by them doesn't make the problem easier 02:33:56 contained how? you mean for each b in the base there's a codeword of weight 3 that contains all b's 1-bits 02:34:11 no, that each b in the base has weight 3 02:34:45 hmm, right 02:36:40 anyway. for a start, xoring two weight 3 codes gives something with weight 2, 4 or 6 02:37:08 hmm 02:37:57 "The code is further proof that C is just a step above assembly. If you pretend it's assembly then the mess is justified ;)" 02:37:57 i've become a c weenie because i felt a pang reading this :( 02:38:21 `define weenie 02:38:29 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 02:38:34 whoa who is Jaykul 02:38:41 ehiird: less panging, more coding theory 02:38:48 aaa someone in ##asp.net. run! run! 02:38:50 IMPORTANT ISSUES TO SOLVE 02:38:51 * frank: a smooth-textured sausage of minced beef or pork usually smoked; often served on a bread roll \ [23]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * A sausage is a prepared food, usually made from ground meat, animal fat, salt, and spices (sometimes with other ingredients such as herbs), typically packed in a 02:38:52 run from the devil! 02:39:03 HackEgo: correct and useless! 02:39:09 sheesh 02:39:13 not to mention slow 02:40:32 lessee, i think there must be some weight 3 codes whose xor has weight 2 02:40:43 yes 02:41:04 otherwise there is not enough overlap 02:41:29 by renaming, we can essentially only get 1110000, 0011100, 0000111 otherwise 02:41:45 err 02:41:48 no that's not correct 02:42:35 brain is kinda shutting down, should probably consider sleeping 02:43:01 yeah, this looks like a kind of puzzle, really 02:43:57 god i hate the lecturer... well actually he's pretty awesome, tends to say stuff like "well, we have to check why X has property Y... but this is trivial, because obviously Z", and then laughs out loud at how simple it was 02:44:41 so you don't hate him 02:44:50 no, not really 02:45:23 oerjan: it's possible, yes 02:45:51 the lecturer is known for his puzzles no one manages to solve 02:46:17 or no one but me, occasionally 02:46:58 just haven't really developed much of an intuition for coding theory, and i don't know shit about combinatorics, which is a prerequisite for the course 02:47:07 OKLOPOL 02:47:13 talk about something less interesting 02:47:13 (supposed to be a fifth year course) 02:47:22 but... 02:47:23 ...really? 02:47:24 xD 02:47:32 really what 02:47:36 fifth year 02:47:51 oklopol: you do realise that your life will feel worthless as soon as you get your phd (in a few months) and you can't do any university work any more :D 02:47:56 err yes, i take all courses i see, no matter what the prerequisites are 02:48:07 "Noooo! I've wasted my life being productive!" 02:48:48 umm 02:48:54 then i'll start research. 02:48:59 that's university work 02:49:04 and then you die, and then WHAT WILL YOU DO THEN 02:49:06 huh?! 02:49:12 can't do university work if you're DEAD 02:49:18 oh well that is a toughie 02:50:32 * oklopol considers reading the whole material of the combinatorics course in case that'd help solve the exercise 02:52:32 ehird: he'll go to a haitian zombie university, duh 02:52:58 02:53:01 oops 02:53:05 lots of brainwork there 02:53:33 oklopol: are you doing the maximum number of simultaneous courses? 02:53:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:53:39 ehird: no. 02:53:49 not even in math dep 02:54:04 i'm doing every course i considered even remotely interesting though 02:54:06 oklopol: do a topological sort on the courses so that the prerequisites come first, and sign up for as many courses as you can, then delete them from the list 02:54:13 and twice as many courses as most people do 02:54:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:54:26 you will complete every course in just a few years 02:54:31 as long as you like hard work 02:54:35 now go and get some fucking 5s 02:54:38 GO → 02:55:05 ehiird: except no need to do a topological sort when i can just take courses without taking the prerequisites. 02:55:18 BUT, oklopol 02:55:27 if you know the prerequisites there's a good chance you'll finish a course faster 02:55:32 thus allowing you to do, guess what 02:55:34 another course 02:55:36 faster 02:55:47 so nearing the end you'll be going through courses insanely fast 02:56:02 and then 02:56:07 you know what you have to do? 02:56:11 go to the nearest university 02:56:14 and do it all over again 02:56:24 once you've done all the universities in finland 02:56:29 go to the nearest universe in another country 02:56:31 etc etc etc 02:56:33 and eventually, oklopol 02:56:36 you will know EVERYTHING 02:56:46 and will therefore 02:56:46 be 02:56:49 UNSTOPPABLE 02:56:57 oh well that's a fair point 02:57:01 oklopol: then you can start research. 02:57:26 since you know everything you'll have to rig the setups so that they actually create new truths 02:57:30 which you will then discover 02:58:24 anyway i couldn't be *that* much faster, there are only a few courses i'm not taking, and those mostly are about stuff i already know, plus the master's degree related seminar 02:58:45 the point is that you have to do that to optimise better for the later courses 02:58:46 (not doing my master's this year, unfortunately) 02:58:56 so it's little benefit now, but it actually speeds up in the future! 03:01:01 "The main question regarding the Das Keyboard Professional Model “S” should not be whether it’s a very nice keyboard: it is." 03:01:01 oh shut up it fails at key rollover 03:01:02 ahem 03:02:23 "The Original Das Keyboard Professional lacks media function keys, has only a single USB connector, isn’t compatible with KVM switches, and doesn’t have “Full n-key rollover,” which means that if you mash, say, six keys at once, the keyboard might not register all of them." 03:02:24 yeah and neither does the S 03:03:48 anyway who wants to help me make this distro, you can do all the boring parts 03:03:50 yeah didn't think so 03:03:59 i just want to sleep 03:04:06 i will let you sleep IF 03:04:09 you help me with this 03:04:12 and only then. 03:04:37 anyone here an expert on beta distribution? 03:05:23 i wish my brain worked 03:08:55 * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw 03:17:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:21:05 AnMaster: There? 03:46:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:50:07 oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2. 03:50:54 yeah the original das keyboard has a too slow scan I think yeah 03:51:44 The Das Keyboard: TOO F***ING LOUD. 03:54:11 oklopol: so, uh, I guess I would like it if you would ask a question. 03:54:46 das ist kein keyboard 03:55:00 Wow, everyone but oklopol is speaking now. 03:55:16 he probably fell asleep 03:55:36 idle 50 mins 03:56:04 technically i'm still awake, and the beta one is probably not very interesting 03:56:12 *but 03:56:34 would probably suffice for read its characteristics from wp. 03:56:44 but i'm not going to do anything anymore 03:56:45 oklopol: saying that you have a question automatically makes the question interesting. 03:57:16 Gregor: Meh. 03:57:27 Gregor: Model Ms are louder. And Model Fs are even moreso. 03:57:33 dunno, dunno, in any case i'm not going to get the paper, since i'm too tired 03:57:59 Meep. 03:58:00 Gregor: You can get clicky keyboards without the click, though; the Cherry Browns are slightly lighter and with less of a tactile push, but they don't click and are pretty similar to the Blues used in the Das. 03:58:16 Gregor: Of course if you're paying hundreds for a keyboard anyway might as well get a ~$250 Topre >:D 04:01:25 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:02:04 -!- coppro has joined. 04:03:34 I wish there was a way to detect vt100 apps so I could write a terminal that lets you do actually useful shit and changes mode for them. 04:03:35 Sigh. 04:03:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:04:10 vt100 apps? 04:05:04 apps that reposition cursor, for instance every curses-using app 04:05:09 and other vt100 stuff 04:05:11 colour is okay though 04:05:17 don't need to detect colour usage 04:05:29 apps that make the input raw 04:05:32 so that they get every character 04:05:33 etc 04:06:13 why not just output straight VGA text mode 04:06:27 madbrain: what? 04:06:31 what has that got to do with anything 04:07:09 hmm, I'm thinking in terms of dos apps, sorry 04:07:18 I don't write vt100 apps 04:07:27 I just wish they identified themselves as "hello we are going to fuck with the terminal" 04:07:32 because I want to have a terminal that can copy and paste across lines without copying an actual linebreaks, that can support keyboard shortcuts without mangling them horribly due to applications inside the terminal, that can delete selected text after highlighting it like everything else 04:07:34 etc 04:07:56 and stupid applications like vi and everything that want to shoehorn a complex UI onto a command-line system stop me doing this 04:08:07 so if i could detect them, i could emulate a vt100 like every other terminal and let them take over 04:08:15 and when we drop back to a shell, it could become rich again 04:08:27 but they don't identify themselves, they just go ahead and control it 04:09:10 hmm 04:09:23 what about detecting vt100 escape sequences? 04:09:31 that's one possibility, for sure 04:09:45 but if a program doesn't use one at startup that'd be weird 04:09:50 because it'd come into the normal text view then bam 04:09:55 all the other stuff is gone as it takes over the terminal 04:10:12 make it user selectable then? 04:10:27 Warrigal: you could try to solve the problem i did tell about 04:10:38 madbrain: vt100 apps are pretty common you know 04:10:44 and it'd be a huge pain to have to do that 04:11:03 + perhaps so annoying to outweigh the benefits of being able to assume text 04:11:15 ah, dunno, I'm comming from a world of DOS and windows so that stuff is different for me 04:11:20 otoh, it would let me use the rc shell without bloating it with filename completion and the like nicely, like it is in plan9... 04:11:31 madbrain: i'll try and explain 04:11:34 madbrain: you know edit.com? 04:11:43 so my reference for that is the VGA text mode 04:11:56 oklopol: what problem was that? 04:12:00 ehird: yeah? 04:12:12 madbrain: and you know, e.g. deltree or whatever? a command that prints its status linearly and the like 04:12:17 Warrigal: read logs, wasn't that long ago 04:12:25 right 04:12:31 madbrain: and command.com itself, which is like deltree or whatever but also has user input 04:12:33 the binary linear code thing 04:12:59 madbrain: well, edit.com is like a curses app on linux (which use the vt100 codes to do colours, reposition the caret to output in predefined places instead of linearly, get direct access to the keypresses, yada yada yada) 04:13:00 oklopol: prove that if you have a binary linear code of word length 7 and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3, then 1111111 belongs to the code? 04:13:08 madbrain: and deltree and command.com are like "regular" terminal apps 04:13:10 yes 04:13:15 e.g. vim and emacs without the GUI are ncurses apps 04:13:18 so is irssi 04:13:26 hmm 04:13:52 but then wouldn't most "rich" apps start filling the screen with colors and stuff like that right off the bat? 04:14:04 well, I can handle colours in plain text 04:14:09 but yes, most would indeed 04:14:13 A binary linear code is a code that forms a vector space over {0, 1} where addition is elementwise XOR? 04:14:19 I'm definitely considering it nnow 04:14:21 *now 04:14:30 perhaps I should make a new window for vt100 stuff, too 04:14:34 yes 04:14:35 since it'll act differently 04:14:43 and to let you terminate it etc. via the normal terminal 04:15:03 vt100 is, what, similar to VGA text mode, right? 04:15:33 I'm not sure what you mean 04:15:38 And the "weight" of a code is the number of 1s in it? 04:15:41 vt100 was just an ancient CRT terminal you plugged into a mainframe 04:15:45 you could output text to it like normal 04:15:52 but it also has special things to output that do things like: 04:15:55 set background/foreground colour 04:15:56 (in terms of functionality, not interface) 04:16:01 move cursor (where text is output) up one line 04:16:04 left one character 04:16:07 and 04:16:16 stop buffering text at lines before you send it to me, give me every keypress raw 04:16:18 so i can handle it how i want 04:16:20 that sort of stuff 04:16:32 Warrigal: yes 04:16:56 ehird: right 04:17:06 madbrain: thanks for making me rethink that detecting wouldn't work, btw; I'm seriously considering it now 04:17:22 madbrain: one issue, though, is: how do I know when it's stopped vt100ing? I guess I'll look at the process tree and mark them as vt100ing 04:17:33 so i need to look at processes the shell creates 04:17:36 Well, if the code contains everything it possibly can, it has 21 words of weight 3. I would bet that if you XOR all 7 words of weight 3, you'll always get 1111111. 04:17:40 so this will actually be more involved than your typical terminal 04:18:04 So then it's a matter of proving that for any possible set of 7, for each position, an odd number of the 7 have a 1 in that position. 04:18:22 you could probably maintain a non vt100 and a vt100 state 04:18:57 madbrain: yah, but for most terminals, once the vt100ing program is through, they don't know 04:19:03 they don't handle processes, the shell does 04:19:07 and the terminal just blithely follows the ouutput 04:19:28 Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:41 `addquote Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:46 :P 04:19:48 Oops. 04:19:55 well, once it goes out of vt100, the special characters would eventually get flushed out of the screen no? 04:19:56 100| Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:59 C(7, 3)? 04:20:09 that's 35 04:20:15 hey quote 100 04:20:18 what do you mean by 100 04:20:21 35, yeah. 04:20:22 madbrain: that's true 04:20:39 madbrain: but that'd be even weirder to have it go back; I'm thinking of spawning a separate window for vt100 stuff, since it behaves differently 04:20:55 madbrain: vt100 apps mess up the scrollback (things scrolled off-screen) anyway 04:21:05 since they take over the entire screen, they usually overwrite stuff before themselves 04:21:08 not all of it, just some 04:21:14 so putting it in another window helps that 04:21:36 I wish 35/7 were a power of two. 04:22:25 ehird: well, basically they stop doing vertical scrolling and make the screen into a 2 array, no? 04:22:27 well, tell me if you come up with anything interesting, time to sleep 04:22:29 -> 04:22:33 * Warrigal nods. 04:22:55 madbrain: basically. the problem is that, e.g. if you scroll down in a vt100 app, then scroll up in your terminal, you see the top line of the current scrolling, and then the line before you started it 04:23:10 after quitting, they disappear as if they never happened 04:23:17 it's all very weird 04:24:40 hm 04:27:04 ehird: so it's basically text prompt up to the vt100 app, then vt100 sorta as if it was a virtual screen, except that screen disappears on quitting? 04:27:14 yep... 04:27:20 here, let me tell you what i mean by losing backlog 04:27:39 first I resize my terminal to 6 lines high to demonstrate 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:48 [~]$ 04:27:48 [~]$ 04:27:49 [~]$ 04:27:51 i just hit enter until i got a tiny scrollbar 04:27:59 I type in "man rc", hit enter 04:28:02 and it all turns into 04:28:07 [~]$ 04:28:07 [~]$ 04:28:07 RC(1) RC(1) 04:28:08 NAME 04:28:08 rc - shell 04:28:08 : 04:28:12 although there's a blank line after RC(1) 04:28:14 and before the : 04:28:15 stupid irc 04:28:29 anyway, you can see that it's cut off some backlog; it could have cut off a command's outputt in the middle were it there 04:28:31 *output 04:28:34 so I press q to quit, and 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:41 [~]$ man rc 04:28:43 [~]$ 04:28:45 it comes back 04:28:48 this is all very weird and awkward 04:28:55 hmm 04:28:56 curses apps just aren't like the command-line 04:29:01 so I want to segregate them to a window 04:29:03 right 04:29:24 and that way i can interpret the rest as regular text 04:29:30 thus making using the terminal with other apps not hellish 04:30:11 well, you could detect ncurses apps and give them a virtual 24 line window inside your scrolling window 04:30:28 yes 04:30:40 but the thing is, that still leads to an inconsistent experience, because now they are trapping your keystrokes 04:30:44 so you lose the keyboard shortcuts 04:30:47 of the terminal 04:30:52 and copying and pasting doesn't work the same, etc 04:31:00 and you can't highlight some text and delete it, say in vim or emacs 04:31:04 because it doesn't work that way 04:31:31 right 04:31:56 plan 9 does this awesomely 04:32:10 if you start a "rich" app (there is no gui/cli distinction), 04:32:14 it takes over the terminal until you exit 04:32:16 then it goes back 04:32:18 the clever thing is 04:32:22 every window in plan 9 is the same as a terminal window 04:32:27 the same text interface, totally malleable 04:32:39 so basically, the text window, you can just print to it 04:32:46 or you can replace it with two text windows 04:32:54 it's made so that a terminal isn't an oddity 04:33:13 unfortunately there's still existing apps in the way in linux. :( 04:34:31 hm 04:35:03 yeah it would take something akin to "video modes" 04:35:43 yeah 04:37:33 well, outputting any vt100 character is implicitly "switch to vt100 mode" 04:37:38 #plan9's hostility is unparalleled: 04:37:38 [03:35] ehird: hmm 04:37:38 [03:35] ehird: does $"`{...} work? 04:37:39 [03:35] soul9: NP 04:37:39 [03:35] soul9: NO 04:37:42 madbrain: yep 04:37:44 but just for that process 04:38:00 so I have to scoop up the previous output, put it in a new window, and redirect the process's output there in vt100 mode 04:38:27 hmm 04:38:45 it would be good if you had a "return from vt100" procedure too 04:39:30 supposing the guy calls a series of apps that switch between the two kinds of apps or something 04:39:49 normally a vt100 would do some cleaning up when quitting no? 04:39:54 nope 04:39:59 in most terminals, it's very simple 04:40:03 the program simply stops executing 04:40:05 and the shell prints its prompt 04:40:07 and you keep going 04:40:09 it's all one stream 04:40:32 hmm 04:40:47 ehird: man termcap, man terminfo. i'm pretty sure there _was_ some "start using escape sequences" sequence in at least one of them... 04:40:50 then obviously you should put your hook into the shell 04:41:20 oerjan: ah, you mean construct my own? 04:41:26 and make the shell activate your "exit from vt100 mode" procedure when starting up 04:41:35 that's how curses applications determine how a terminal works... 04:41:57 sweet 04:42:02 ehird: i was wondering since you kept saying vt100 if you didn't know about it... 04:42:03 (are you sure?) 04:42:08 oerjan: i know about i t 04:42:20 I just didn't realise it let you tell the app to output something when it starts doing funny business 04:42:23 *it 04:42:35 i am pretty sure i vaguely recall it ;D 04:45:28 are there any 132 column apps? 04:45:42 most progs can handle any terminal size. 04:45:53 #!/bin/rc 04:45:53 04:45:54 fn update { 04:45:54 clock=`{date +'%b %-d, %H:%M'} 04:45:54 xsetroot -name $"clock 04:45:54 } 04:45:56 04:45:58 update 04:46:00 while (sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc}) update 04:46:02 Clocks are awesome! 04:47:00 hm maybe i was thinking of ti/te in termcap 04:47:10 yeah one of the escape sequences is "reset terminal to initial state" 04:47:53 come to think of it, I should probably make it say -11-01 instead of Nov 1 04:47:59 since I use the number more than the name 04:48:04 and it doesn't tell me the full name anyway 04:48:09 -11-01 is pretty ugly though 04:48:40 heh, that thing's running sleep 59 right now 04:48:45 one thing that's funny is that they hacked a 132 column text mode into the PC, obviously for vt100 compatibility, but they did it really late (like, in SVGA cards) 04:48:50 could have been a perfect 60 if i wasn't a second too late! 04:49:10 hmm, maybe I should add a funge factor of sleeping one extra second, just in case I get it just before the next minute starts 04:49:13 not a big deal though 04:49:20 it's like the weirdest video mode ever 04:49:27 vt100 is 80x24 04:50:25 these docs say that it had a 132x mode, but probably that people didn't use it 04:50:44 yeah 04:51:12 annoying that it's very hard to say "start of next minute" with things like sleep 04:51:17 sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc} is ugly 04:51:28 (translation: "Sleep for 60 seconds minus the seconds elapsed in the current minute".) 04:52:50 that's an... interesting way of coding 04:53:02 madbrain: what, the composition of simple commands? 04:53:08 yeah, it's called unix. well, it was called unix in the 70s. 04:53:45 bc is the calculator, echo just prints something out, a | b runs a sending the output to b as it goes, `{...} runs ... and expands its output into the command it's in 04:53:46 rc shell 04:53:52 it'd look like this in the more common bash: 04:53:59 sleep $(echo 60-$(date +%S) | bc) 04:54:03 or, more probable, 04:54:15 sleep $(( 60-$(date +%S) )) 04:54:41 yeah, window's shell isn't good enough for that! 04:55:08 yeah what do you guys do, keep a (non-digital) clock on your desk? 04:55:13 weirdos 04:55:20 -!- fax has joined. 04:55:59 -!- coppro has joined. 04:56:09 dunno, but a .bat file clock sounds like it would be hard to code 04:56:20 dunno if .bat is even turing complete 04:56:30 it has goto, I'm pretty sure it is 04:56:35 and conditionals 04:56:43 plus potentially infinite storage (filesystem) 04:56:48 hmm 04:57:08 madbrain: write a brainfuck interp and see 04:57:11 shouldn't be too hard 04:57:14 yeah ok it might be using some ugly tricks 04:57:39 such as creating new .bat files and running them 04:57:44 :-D 04:57:48 awesome; do it 04:59:43 ( echo import brainfuck, sys & echo brainfuck.run(' '.join(sys.argv[1:])) ) | python 04:59:50 hur hur hur 04:59:55 s/hur $/hur/ 05:02:57 you and your invisible end-of-line spaces 05:03:18 yes. 05:05:08 neither irssi nor the logs contain it, maybe it is stripped by the irc server 05:05:22 hmm, what's the typical length of a dram refresh cycle%? 05:05:33 meaning? 05:06:09 ie how much time maximum between refreshes? 05:06:15 a dram is always refreshing 05:06:19 what is refresh 05:06:37 -!- Pthing has joined. 05:06:40 oerjan: well, if by always you mean every 10ms or some similar value 05:07:09 ehird: dram loses data if you don't regularly read and rewrite it! 05:07:21 *whoosh*. admittedly that word's probably obscure in english, but it exists. 05:07:43 1 a small drink of whiskey or other spirits (often used in humorous imitation of Scottish speech) 05:08:12 madbrain: anyway, something like 10 minutes 05:08:18 is the record for post-shutdown recovery 05:08:21 dunno how modern PCs refresh DRAM... afaik some older ones had an interrupt 05:08:21 more if you cool it 05:10:51 like, afaik, one reason the z80 was popular was that it handled ram refresh for you 05:28:53 aha, 16m 05:28:56 16ms 05:29:14 (from a datasheet) 05:29:24 that is a totally strategic time! 05:30:03 * coppro is a connoisseur of esoteric words 05:32:16 lol conoisseur 05:33:17 :D 05:33:50 I'm a lol conoisseur 05:34:42 madbrain: 16 meters? that's an awfully long time! 05:35:33 not at all, that's very short, ask any relativist 05:35:42 :D 05:36:56 ....Someone forgot where his OWN building was 05:37:32 Days after he showed it to me 05:38:55 that'd be more amusing if it wasn't almost certainly in BobsVeryOwnVirtualRealityCirca1999. 05:40:15 lol 05:40:27 It was in AWTeen 3205.00N 1235.00E -0.01a 0 (Active Worlds) 05:40:49 AW lets you save locations (I'd hate to imagine a place that didn't) 05:41:13 Anyways, I need to go to sleep. Bye all 05:43:22 EVERYONE: Stop fucking using sourceforge! 05:44:56 i find it somewhat difficult to understand how someone could use sourceforge for fucking in the first place 05:45:06 but, rule 34 and all 05:45:21 it doesn't even parse that way, so you fail :p 05:45:26 also, rule 34 is about porn. 05:46:02 i claim it can parse that way 05:47:22 chomsky hates you. 05:47:45 chomsky hates nearly everyone, doesn't he. 05:47:54 who knows 05:49:27 rule 34 is about cartoon porn yeah 05:49:51 no, it's about porn in general. 05:50:29 What's this about porn? 05:50:38 Oh, the rule is just "There is porn of it. Period." 05:51:41 And it's very very true. 05:52:28 very true 05:52:30 well, technically it's about porn in general, but what it mostly means is that it's hard not to find porn of whatever cartoon and that there are many crazy fetishes 05:52:57 madbrain — premier mind-reader since 2009 06:00:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:00:48 rule 1: most artists have drawn some porn 06:01:23 * coppro just had a terrible thought 06:01:23 I'm fairly sure that's not a rule of /b/ no matter what set you use. 06:01:25 corollary: this includes artists that do kids games and cartoons 06:01:28 coppro: unthink it 06:01:43 SF.net porn :/ 06:02:02 Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:05:08 `addquote SF.net porn :/ Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:05:25 101| SF.net porn :/ Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:06:13 I'll badly integrate all your web apps into a slow-loading monstrosity, if you know what I mean ;-) 06:12:00 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 06:13:13 hmm 06:13:41 * ehird spontaneously combusts 06:15:56 I'm looking at DRAM datasheets to figure out how to design a system 06:16:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:16:33 madbrain: what are you doing? 06:16:35 it sounds fun 06:18:36 trying to design a system with a cpu, graphics and sound hardware 06:18:45 madbrain: like, custom cpu? fpga? 06:18:53 design your own computer? fucking awesome 06:19:07 possibly all that stuff running from inside a fpga yeah 06:19:20 i absolutely want to do that some day 06:19:35 madbrain: the good fpgas are so expensive though :( 06:19:41 hmm 06:19:46 "good"? 06:19:49 like $500 up; the $200 "evaluation boards" are limited as far as complexity, iirc 06:19:49 as in 06:19:57 each board can only handle so much logic 06:20:02 and the $200 ones don't handle much at all 06:20:07 hmm 06:20:14 you'd have to ask ais523 06:20:17 he's studied this stuff 06:20:34 there's not too much point to a 500$ fpga, I could get a beagle board for that price :/ 06:20:39 yes, actually doing it in hardware costs far too much 06:20:46 how do they know 06:20:54 madbrain: also, the tools to put VHDL or whatever onto the chip are expensive 06:20:56 bsmntbombdood: how do they know what 06:21:02 the apples 06:21:04 madbrain: like "contact us" 06:21:11 bsmntbombdood: what apples 06:21:21 ehird: then I'll probably go for one of those spartan3 evaluation boards or something 06:21:23 madbrain: (for price) 06:21:26 ie the small/limited stuff 06:21:39 madbrain: well, they might come with tools of some sort 06:22:22 well, a design with cache is rather complicated, so without cache there should be some sort of upper complexity limit 06:22:39 the cache of gonads 06:22:47 bsmntbombdood: how do what apples know what 06:23:03 madbrain: make it a microcode interpreter and swap the cpu microcode from registers to RAM :-D 06:23:05 ie probably go for some kind of RISC for the cpu since with only raw DRAM access there's a limit to data access rates 06:23:15 it's pertussis, not infection pneumonitis 06:23:34 ehird: ? 06:23:42 bsmntbombdood: how drunk are you exactly 06:23:51 madbrain: you know what microcode is right? 06:24:00 I'm not familiar with that 06:24:03 my father is swimming 06:24:26 madbrain: basically, modern CPUs don't implement the CPU in the actual electric pathways 06:24:35 madbrain: they have an interpreter for a proprietary microcode, like a RISC architecture 06:24:46 madbrain: and each instruction is coded in it, in super-fast, on-chip ROM 06:24:47 I think it's basically CPU opcodes get expanded to larger processor instruction data inside 06:24:53 yeah 06:24:57 and the processor executes the microcode instead of the instructions directly 06:25:10 so current CISC chips are actually RISC internally 06:25:16 although you can't change it and it's undocumented, so uh 06:25:18 right 06:25:19 good luck doing anything with it 06:25:45 madbrain: ofc, storing the microcode in RAM would be so slow and swapping it to registers is useless since there's so few of them :-) 06:25:46 it was a joke. 06:25:59 I'd like to do a super out-of-order stack reduction based chip but that would be way too large for a fpga :D 06:26:15 madbrain: fpgas can cost up to like $5,000 06:26:19 not many limits with them really 06:26:27 low clock speed 06:26:28 that is way too much money 06:26:33 just saying 06:26:34 :P 06:26:48 also it would require cache 06:26:59 i'm joking man 06:27:08 bsmntbombdood: so uh what was that about apples 06:27:38 but yeah, right now I'm debating on whether to try to take advantage of fast-page/edo DRAM or go for static access cycles 06:28:08 madbrain: please make it something not like the standard risc architectures 06:28:08 thx 06:28:57 why 06:29:03 because they're boring? :D 06:29:05 madbrain: because they're boring. 06:29:07 also crap 06:29:33 crap? 06:29:38 crap. 06:29:51 oh my 06:31:12 i have a glorious beard 06:31:36 like, I'm going through this sdram specification.... this is complicated 06:31:46 bsmntbombdood: eat it 06:31:47 it is food 06:31:55 i don't think so mister 06:31:56 madbrain: i think the fpgas abstract the ram away for you 06:32:01 ais523? 06:32:23 sort-of 06:32:29 variables in the HDL become RAM in the fpga 06:32:46 although sometimes the compiler is stupid and you have to specifically tell it to use dedicated RAM rather than LUT-based RAM 06:33:02 LUT is the complexity unit, right? 06:33:34 yes 06:33:43 you can make one LUT into one bit of RAM 06:33:47 but that's normally really wasteful 06:33:56 so FPGAs tend to come with some pre-built RAM too 06:34:02 ah, but you're talking about in fpga ram 06:34:05 which is SRAM 06:34:28 and typically comes in, what, 16k? probably more or less depending of the chip but still 06:34:36 no more 06:34:45 the $200 boards have like 256 MiB of RAM 06:34:49 or was it like 23 MiB 06:34:55 whatever it was, it was very sufficient 06:34:56 ah but that's SDRAM no? 06:35:01 prolly 06:35:09 that's different! 06:35:15 s/23 MiB/32 MiB/ 06:35:17 madbrain: so :P 06:35:58 on chip ram is static ram and can be addressed pretty fast... cpu caches are SRAM for instance 06:36:26 but SDRAM is DRAM and you have to sorta planify who gets a turn to read from it, etc... 06:36:47 not to mention variable access times depending on type of accesses 06:47:06 like, one possible manner is to make a chip that outputs 320x240 and where everything is based on 400 memory cycles per scanline 06:49:25 from there, if you keep a lid on register space, ROM space, and excessive multipliers, it should be synthesizable 06:49:54 obviously that would give a rather classic, probably amiga-like design 07:00:12 then a fast-page or edo-based design, which would be more 486-y 07:06:06 amiga-like is good! do that. 07:06:20 i'm always a fan of the tied-to-the-CRT-rate stuff 07:16:48 omg guys 07:16:49 in two months 07:16:51 it will be MMX 07:27:53 ? 07:30:25 * oerjan swattit madbrainum -----### 07:30:28 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 07:30:55 MMX! 07:31:21 MMPH! 07:31:48 ok, sdram isn't bad :D 07:32:13 except it has way too many pins :( 07:35:32 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:41:45 -!- calamari has joined. 07:54:38 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:55:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:15:27 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:27 "Just one incident: when my Symbolics came, the seller mixed up billing and shipping address and sent it to my home. Had to pick it up at the post office but they sent a customs postcard with the price on it. Well, I had to explain why I would spend "that much" on an old keyboard. After everything was settled I looked at the postcard once more and realized it only showed the shipping costs." 08:18:07 ehird: :) 08:21:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:21:28 Things to do to make the distro: * Get hardware. * Set up Arch development environment. * Go through the gigantic kernel configuration process. * Write the init. * Figure out what login to use and all that crap. * Figure out what libc to use. * See if LLVM can do a.out, if not, switch from it (unlikely) or get it to work or whatever... 08:21:29 * Figure out what coreutils to use, or write one I guess; port it if it's a BSD one, etc. * Compile some stuff. * Write a package manager. * Compile a toolchain for the toolchain. * Bootstrap shortly after. * Write the rest of this list 08:21:56 man, sdram modules have 168 pins o_@ 08:21:58 At some point some testing would be good, and getting other people to test too... 08:22:08 You guys like testing, right?! Thought so. 08:24:51 (Maybe I can get pikhq to test it by replacing all references to Linux with As-Of-Yet Unnamed Suckless.org Kernel.) 08:25:40 ehird: Eh, I have free time, and am at least curious to see what you come up with. 08:25:55 Wow, it worked before I even did it. 08:25:59 That's some mighty good plan. 08:26:53 I should probably build a box with some medium-common-denominator hardware to get it all working... 08:27:19 Using something high-end is probably a bad idea considering the state of drivers. 08:28:04 I'll have to restrain myself from omitting everything from the kernel that I don't use... 08:28:35 "Eh, who needs disks, anyways? That's what a ramdisk is for, right?" 08:29:35 RAM?! Recent Core 2 processors have 12 MiB of L2 cache, you know. 08:29:43 As for the cache... we did fine with L1 back in the day! 08:30:18 this i7 has what, 8mb of l3 08:30:19 Think about it. The Core 2's L2 cache? It can hold 8.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333... fully formatted floppy disks. 08:30:21 WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 08:30:34 bsmntbombdood: yeah and 4x256 KiB of L2 I believe 08:33:33 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 08:33:37 hmm 08:33:48 android's libc (bionic) has no termios 08:34:03 i guess that doesn't really matter 08:37:04 Android implements its own account management, and does not use /etc/passwd. There is no getpwent(), and getpwnam()/getpwuid() are implemented as wrappers around an Android ID service. At present, the Android ID service consists of 25 hard-coded accounts in 08:37:04 ugh, so bionic is quite tied to android 08:37:14 i really wish dietlibc wasn't fucking retardedly gpl 08:37:22 it's clearly the right thing 08:42:47 ah, now i remember why I dumped dietlibc 08:42:48 • The BSD people would not accept it without $LICENSE==BSD (currently: 08:42:49 GPL) 08:42:49 • Then, Microsof t could steal my code to make Windoze less obviously broken 08:42:49 (can’t let that happen). 08:42:59 the author is a fucking loon. 08:43:20 Why is it GPL and not LGPL or BSD? 08:43:20 Because I don’t want to be r ipped of f. 08:43:21 Implicit: "or anyone to use it" 08:44:14 Implicit: "I have less regard for common practical scenarios than RMS." 08:45:03 :D 08:45:17 pikhq: should I go off the deep end and write my own libc, or just use newlib! 08:45:27 the fact that i can ask that question probably signifies I've already gone off the deep end 08:46:11 Oh... um... 08:46:14 pikhq: not newlib 08:46:18 newlib doesn't support linux 08:46:22 Red Hat's newlib 08:46:26 doesn't support linux. 08:46:41 That's, um, what's the word, uhh, stupid 08:46:51 Or, waitt. 08:46:54 Seems they added it. 08:46:55 *wait 08:55:29 pikhq: I can't use uclibc 08:55:40 It's LGPL, so if I link with it I have to offer an unlinked object file 08:55:53 *sigh* 08:56:17 newlib too. 08:56:19 So my choice is either: 08:56:27 Hack up Bionic to work on non-Android and stuff... 08:56:29 or 08:56:30 Write my own 08:58:15 ... 08:58:20 What a crock of shit this is! 08:59:12 Oh, hmm 08:59:18 Apparently most of newlib is BSD-style 09:01:52 ehird: Red Hat bought Cygnus. 09:01:57 Cygnus developed newlib. 09:02:01 Yeah. 09:02:08 Still... 09:02:12 Hopefully newlib should work, though it seems rather stale. 09:02:29 Hmm. Maybe you could port BSD libc? 09:02:30 But it beats hacking up Bionic, which is rather Android-tied (e.g. no /etc/passwd or fstab support) 09:02:38 pikhq: I was thinking about that, and looked it up 09:02:51 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libc/i386/ 09:02:56 BEHOLD THE EPIC MORASS OF ASSEMBLY CODE!!! 09:03:08 Admittedly that's just some of it. 09:03:17 Clearly I should have said "Minix". 09:03:50 I thought Tanenbaum was criminally insane... http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/andy_tanenbaum 09:04:35 Anyway, BSD libcs are quite good, but still pretty bad: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/lib/libc/stdlib/atexit.c?rev=1.8.10.1.2.1;content-type=text%2Fplain 09:05:33 Let's see how to compile newlib. 09:06:11 On a brighter note, porting BSD libc to Linux would make porting BSD utils... Trivial. 09:06:46 That's true. What I'd have would look suspiciously like a BSD at the end, though, and they're not without their flaws. 09:06:56 At that point I'd do well to save myself the effort and use their kernel too. 09:11:31 Oh, hey, I forgot about that one. 09:11:48 PDCLib! 09:12:05 pikhq: I could port PDCLib to Linux/a.out if it hasn't been already, very easily. 09:12:20 PDCLib is very minimalist and it's very easy to port it (it was designed for hobbyist OSs). 09:12:41 Unfortunately it's inccomplete... 09:12:42 And C99 09:12:44 *incomplete 09:14:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:24:25 -!- ehird_ has joined. 09:25:36 * ehird_ compiles an i686 ELF newlib because he's too lazy to set up a crosscompiler 09:27:46 Pretty sure newlib is gcc only, I might try it with clang though 09:29:55 http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/ 09:29:56 Happy Hacking Keyboard Red Control Key! 09:29:59 GIVE US MONEY NOW 09:30:09 Next up: Red "F" key 09:30:14 Red "X" key 09:30:20 Red " key 09:30:27 and 09:30:31 Red power switch 09:30:36 Red USB cable! 09:32:23 Red Alert key 09:32:54 (KEY)RED 09:33:09 09:33:36 grmbl 09:33:49 grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmbklfgjksfdg 09:33:51 gumball 09:39:32 pikhq: any opinion on how I should handle progs like dwm that have to be recompiled to config? same with the kernel too. i don't want to become source-based 09:39:43 maybe just make it simple to download my build environment for a package 09:39:48 still seems like a pain 09:39:51 since you can't autoupdate etc 09:40:08 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:40:13 -!- ehiird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:40:45 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:40:46 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 09:49:12 GCC, 09:49:15 No standard library, 09:49:19 Static binary, if you please 09:49:24 Yes, include newlib's includes 09:49:27 And my source 09:49:30 Dash of newlibc 09:49:36 And -lgcc because you demand it, dammit 09:49:39 Also name it test 09:49:50 Cannot find entry simple _start, but it's just a warning 09:49:54 To the tune of ./test, 1, 2, 3: 09:49:56 Hello, world! 09:49:59 Segmentation fault 09:50:10 And ls tells me: 163 KiB. 09:50:12 ↑↑↑↑ BEST POEM EVER 09:50:26 *symbol not simple 09:57:26 does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init? 09:06:06 http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/face_the_nation/ 09:06:08 1974 09:06:12 Each image was then reduced interactively to a 48«48 bit (1 bit per pixel) black– and– white 'ikon. ' 09:06:28 Am I reading the paper that pioneered the terminology icon? 09:14:50 AnMaster: There? <-- now I am 09:14:53 what did you want ehird? 09:15:09 paste the context? 09:15:11 I've forgotten 09:15:13 * AnMaster looks 09:15:24 you help me with this 09:15:25 and only then. 09:15:25 anyone here an expert on beta distribution? 09:15:25 i wish my brain worked 09:15:25 * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw 09:15:25 * Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:15:27 AnMaster: There? 09:15:29 * BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection) 09:15:31 oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2. 09:15:39 AnMaster: i uh 09:15:39 um 09:15:40 :/ 09:15:41 no idea 09:16:10 ehird, damn you. ;P Searching scrollback for highlight all in vain. 09:17:11 [08:57] ehird: does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init? 09:17:13 answer that! 09:17:22 ehird, of course 09:17:47 ehird, known last line of rescue is to use init=/bin/busybox at the end of the kernel command line 09:17:55 hmm 09:18:14 I wonder what argv init gets 09:18:15 ehird, wouldn't work very well with an initrd of course 09:18:52 ehird, I'd expect argv[0] to be as usual, the rest none, or kernel command line maybe 09:19:02 I think Arch uses an initrd by default 09:19:07 of course you can get kernel command line easily once /proc is up 09:19:14 ehird, it does. But my arch box doesn't 09:19:22 So, I'd have to futz with it. 09:19:22 grumble 09:19:30 ehird, dropping initrd saved half a minute of boot on my old pentium3 with arch 09:19:41 Nice. 09:19:44 * ehird ponders registering rwx.st 09:20:08 from just over a minute down about 30 seconds. Then later on I managed to bring it down to ~14 seconds by messing around with init scripts 09:20:21 like commenting out parts that weren't relevant to me 09:20:28 oh and disabling automatic module loading 09:20:40 as in, "try to load modules are required" 09:20:47 everything relevant was built in anyway 09:20:51 With my distro getting rid of unused init stuff will be really easy 09:20:59 since you see it all every time you go to enable or disable a daemon anyway 09:21:03 as it's the same operationn 09:21:53 ehird, hm? Oh and since that box is headless all it starts is basically network, sshd, ntpd and nfs server iirc 09:21:55 * AnMaster boots it 09:22:04 AnMaster: as in 09:22:09 there's no separate init scripts/inittab 09:22:15 ehird, oh btw those 14 seconds were from grub. BIOS takes about 14 seconds itself 09:22:20 or 15 rather 09:22:26 so commenting out stuff you don't use is just adding a # before some lines in the file you use to configure daemons 09:22:40 ehird, well yeah. Makes updates a bit messy though 09:22:49 Not really, just adding packages 09:22:53 And that's simple to solve: 09:23:03 # installpkg kde-bloatware 09:23:05 Blah blah blah 09:23:07 oh ffs. Judging from harddrive activity light it is fsck after n mounts time 09:23:09 * AnMaster waits 09:23:11 This package has an init script: 09:23:14 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 09:23:27 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware -- start KDE bloatware services 09:23:29 erm 09:23:33 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.start -- start KDE bloatware services 09:23:35 DAEMONS=(syslog-ng network rpcbind nfs-common @iptables @sshd @crond @ntpdate @ntpd @smartd @xinetd @nfs-server) 09:23:36 ah there 09:23:38 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.stop -- stop KDE bloatware services 09:23:39 whatever 09:23:40 you get the idea 09:23:42 a bit more than I remembered 09:23:44 just tell the users to add the lines 09:23:46 trivial 09:23:51 ehird, indeed 09:24:53 I sure will enjoy reporting e.g. bugs to software authors using this distro 09:25:09 author: blah blah blah, this fails when doing etc etc, not sure what the problem is, can you help? 09:25:14 ehird, oh? Mostly due to a.out I assume? 09:25:16 me: ok, what distro are you using? 09:25:20 author: um, $name 09:25:28 me: never heard of it. is it a derivative or something? 09:25:33 author: well... no... 09:25:36 me: gimme a link 09:25:42 author: http://blah.org/ 09:25:42 heh 09:25:54 me: static binaries? a.out? this isn't 1990! 09:25:59 author: hey! they're good because-- 09:26:03 me: sorry, no support 09:26:05 author: ! 09:26:11 ** author has kicked me from the channel 09:26:24 ehird, I very much suspect that some binaries will break if they can't dlopen() stuff. 09:26:38 AnMaster: That's true, but most programs let you disable that crap. 09:27:00 * AnMaster curses.... wrote "pacman -Sy upgrade" 09:27:08 For those that really want programs that don't let you... well, I can have a dynamic linker as a package... but... stay well away if you don't absolutely have to... 09:27:11 at least I didn't mix up portage into it as well 09:27:16 but just apt and pacman 09:27:56 ehird, what browser will you include? I somehow assume that you won't be happy with links or lynx 09:28:09 Probably http://surf.suckless.org/. 09:28:17 WebKit + suckless. 09:28:30 oh and just a vague memory. I think a.out will confuse the hell out of boehm-gc (w3m uses that iirc) 09:28:37 * AnMaster read parts of libgc source 09:28:46 I tried links -g incidenatlly 09:28:49 *incidentally 09:28:51 It's WEIRD 09:28:53 ehird, poor you 09:28:56 Does its own font rendering, I think 09:29:04 menus and dialogs and form widgets are curses-style 09:29:14 It'd be a lot better if it was elinks 09:29:24 fucking annoying to have gigantic piles of list-menus blocking your view 09:29:35 I'd have installed surf into the VM, but Arch broke libwebkit. sigh. 09:29:43 so I'm twiddling my thumbs until they fix it 09:29:52 (known issue.) 09:30:10 ehird, btw that p3 box with arch has a weird issue. If the system is loaded, new ssh connections time out 09:30:16 see, if we had static binaries, software authors could safely supply binaries they know will work :P 09:30:18 loaded here means CPU or network load 09:30:20 but not disk load 09:30:24 on almost any system 09:30:28 with no dependencies 09:30:35 whee, packages got updated 09:30:41 install install install. i live for nothing other than to update packages. 09:30:59 like all these lib*s i'm getting here. wouldn't need them with STATIC BINARIES DID I MENTION STATIC BINARIES :P 09:31:01 ehird, you know python will break badly by this? 09:31:12 AnMaster: Fairly sure it won't. Care to justify? 09:31:19 ehird, all loadable C modules will break. 09:31:21 they are *.so 09:31:27 and they aren't *that* uncommon 09:31:39 I'm something like 47% sure I could link them in. 09:31:58 ehird, yes you could. But then you would need to rebuild python to add a new one 09:32:13 Yes. Just like the kernel. 09:32:21 Here's an idea. 09:32:33 C modules are packages that install .as to a directory somewhere. 09:32:42 And the builder script just links in them all. 09:32:46 Same with kernel modules. 09:32:58 That way you can install/uninstall modules, and just flip the buildkernel binary or whatever and it'll all work. 09:33:07 The modules are implemented at the package level, effectively. 09:35:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Zzzz"). 09:36:59 hm 09:37:12 Of course, it is annoying. 09:37:20 The kernel can be fast to build, Python not so much. 09:37:31 ehird, would need some adjustments to the binary linking. But quite possible in theory yes 09:37:33 And definitely slower than downloading a binary on a fast connection. 09:37:38 Plus it's a pain for the user... 09:37:40 ehird, oh and X... X loads drivers and such as *.so 09:37:52 would need to patch X quite a bit 09:37:53 AnMaster: Yeah, pretty sure you can link those in. 09:38:28 ehird, with python it is easy to (just change the C code a bit so it looks like those modules already built into python) 09:38:37 with X I suspect it needs some more work 09:38:54 you have to patch it? 09:38:57 urgh 09:39:32 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:39:41 ehird, python? well yes think so. So that the module is initialised the right way. Some minor adjustments only. Possibly adding to some array of modules in the main python binary (not sure about that bit) 09:40:17 Maybe I can write a fun stub dynamic linker that does some sort of unholy hack using processes... 09:40:24 As in, an .so is a binary, and it spawns it... 09:40:31 ...on the other hand that would be unholy 09:40:38 ehird, shared memory mess? 09:40:39 hm 09:40:53 doesn't *.exe and *.dll have different address spaces on windows iirc? 09:41:03 and you have to hack stuff when you want to share things 09:41:33 dunno 09:41:55 Oh 09:42:02 I remember what I was going to ask you, AnMaster 09:42:05 oh? 09:42:12 AnMaster: is it possible to compile a gentoo system using static binaries? 09:42:57 ehird, unknown. But since portage is in python I see a potential problem right there. 09:43:14 Compile static binaries != omit dynamic linker 09:43:18 == pass -static to everything 09:43:33 AnMaster: does it still take 24h to compile everything? 09:43:48 ehird, true. But you can't easily mix dynamic linking and static linking iirc 09:44:05 Yes you can. 09:44:09 ehird, depends on hardware. Haven't done a clean install of gentoo for ages. 09:44:10 a -static binary can easily dlopen(). 09:44:16 Hardware is... a VM. 09:45:12 ehird, it won't be as fast as installing ubuntu of course. And it will require user interaction in many parts. Unless you use that "not really newfangled any longer" GUI installer. Which I never tried. 09:45:15 not sure how it works 09:45:37 I don't mind interaction, but if it takes 4 hours or more I'm pretty much not going to bother. 09:45:53 other people complained it was laughably bad in the beginning. I assume it improved 09:46:03 ehird, depends on how much system you want 09:46:14 full blown KDE? 09:46:29 or bootable system without X? 09:46:49 Small kernel (but I don't want to configure it manually), hopefully with no initrd or anything, networking, X11. 09:46:52 That's pretty much it. 09:49:10 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really 09:52:05 ehird, manually or auto with initramfs are the options iirc 09:52:19 unless genkernel nowdays can generate without initramfs 09:52:20 Fine, I can do that. 09:52:25 So how long would it take, roughly? 09:52:36 <4 hours, <10 hours, <24 hours, <48 hours? 09:52:39 ehird, was that "no X" or "with X"? 09:52:44 With X. 09:53:05 Drivers supplied by VirtualBox, nothing else needed apart from vesa to bootstrap. 09:53:15 hm. assuming a system with dual quad core Xeon CPUs? 09:53:30 [09:49] ehird: 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really 09:53:40 right 09:53:45 7200 rpm disk :P 09:54:09 ehird, could be less than 4. Definitely less than 6 at least. 09:54:25 unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007 09:54:45 how big are dem livecds i wonder... 09:55:09 ehird, classical command line stage3 install would only require minimal cd. which is around 100 MB for x86_64 09:55:20 lol, a livedvd 09:55:29 ehird, oh btw if you got for multilib x86_64 it will probably not manage in less than 4 hours 09:55:38 i wonder what exactly they have on that monstrosity over ubuntu's 700 megs 09:55:43 livedvd, sheesh 09:55:46 ehird, source? 09:55:50 LiveDVD (released Oct 10, 2009) 09:55:51 (up to 2.6 gigabytes depending on arch) 09:55:51 amd64 x86 09:55:53 http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml 09:56:39 ehird, minimal install + stage3 install following manual 09:56:42 is what I would do 09:56:54 like "LFS light" I guess 09:56:59 stage3 has compiled stuff doesn't it 09:57:17 ehird, stage3 is enough base system to compile new stuff 09:57:29 so, not static binaries then 09:57:37 but if you are going for static it will likely take longer, due to having to figure out how. 09:57:52 some packages do have an useflag "static" 09:57:58 CFLAGS=-static 09:58:03 the chainsaw maneuver 10:00:46 ehird, sure. I won't be surprised if things break 10:00:48 like glibc 10:00:55 not sure about other libcs 10:00:58 never tried 10:01:32 bleh 10:01:33 no point with all that 10:01:37 I'll just jump straight to my distro 10:02:17 it won't be hard 10:02:26 as soon as I have a kernel and an init it can be booted 10:02:30 -!- adam_d has joined. 10:02:46 but... I need hardware first 10:03:00 because VMs reaaaaaaaaaaaally aren't real world 10:04:36 anyone got an old computer they want to give to me? :P 10:04:52 ehird, why not use your mac? 10:05:14 one because the cognitive dissonance of such an environment on the quite frankly pretty opposite iMac would probably break my brain 10:05:22 two because the damn EFI would be bigger than my distro!* 10:05:24 *exaggeration 10:05:34 three because i don't want to deal with EFI and crap 10:05:44 four because eh 10:05:49 I can't swap the hardware easily 10:05:55 I can't test whether new hardware works or whatever 10:06:12 can't swap an SSD in to test performance 10:06:12 etc 10:07:08 plus 10:07:15 everyone else is going to be running this on pc hardware 10:07:21 and i want to minimise my pain 10:08:46 besides, the silent pc tinkerer in me still hasn't found release 10:09:45 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:12:23 ehird, heh 10:12:38 ehird, so you were the guy that said "Hi! I'm Linux"? 10:12:59 except you pretended you were the Mac guy 10:13:09 lol 10:13:15 http://dmartin.org/files/Mac_linux.jpg 10:13:39 ehird, one of several variants of it 10:13:44 yeah 10:14:58 anyway I'm kinda reluctant to call it a linux distro because when i say linux distro i get a clear picture and my head and mine isn't it... 10:15:29 ehird, it would be a linux distro 10:15:30 ("almost certainly cookie-cutter" and "all the general 'modern' crap") 10:15:32 AnMaster: yes 10:15:33 just not a GNU/Linux one 10:15:37 touché 10:15:42 that's a good way of explaining it 10:16:01 ehird, it is kind of the inverse of Debian/BSD in a way 10:16:06 heh 10:16:40 ehird, what will it be called? 10:17:01 man, I'm terrible at names... 10:17:08 microdon linux? 10:17:13 haha 10:17:27 midget linux 10:17:32 heh 10:17:42 monolith (ooh that's a good one) 10:17:45 (not very googlable though) 10:17:54 monolix.. aw, it's taken. 10:18:01 monolux is too 10:19:47 I wonder what my install procedure will be like 10:20:30 Probably just "use the package manager to install the packages inside the empty partition" for the most part. 10:20:32 How boring. 10:20:41 (netinstall only) 10:23:32 ehird, microlith? 10:23:43 Hey, that's an acttual existing thing. 10:23:47 really? 10:24:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microlith 10:24:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:24:50 huh. 10:26:00 anyway, no point thinking about a name now 10:26:06 true 10:26:20 I'll probably call the init something lame like ehird's init anyway 10:26:22 ehird, git is too bloated for this btw. I suggest rcs 10:26:28 And the package manager might have its own name 10:26:45 AnMaster: Heh. 10:26:52 Methinks git is not bloated. :P 10:27:02 ehird, sec 10:27:42 85616 /usr/bin/rcs 10:27:47 945520 /usr/bin/git 10:27:49 that is bytes 10:28:10 You forgot the few git-*s! 10:28:15 hm seems like rcs consists of several binaries too 10:28:24 git-cvsserver, git-shell, you know, all these things. 10:28:26 ehird, I thought they were symlinks or such? 10:28:26 AnMaster: Yes. 10:28:28 Many binaries. 10:28:33 Also, that was abolished. 10:28:37 These are just auxillary tool,s. 10:28:41 *auxiliary 10:28:43 *tools 10:29:08 $ qlist git | wc -l 10:29:08 690 10:29:12 $ qlist rcs | wc -l 10:29:12 30 10:29:26 Oh shush you. 10:29:43 ehird, half of the git files are in /usr/share/doc anyway 10:29:51 at least half 10:29:53 All that pesky documentation. Just bloat! 10:30:00 ehird, exactly! 10:30:10 half of rcs is docs too 10:30:12 Use your MIND to understand it. 10:30:15 just that half is much smaller half 10:30:36 $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l 10:30:37 11 10:30:40 ehird: RE: static Gentoo. 10:30:41 $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l 10:30:41 157 10:30:49 You could back in 2005; the profile for that is no longer maintained at all. 10:31:05 Dropped along with uclibc support. 10:31:15 pikhq: Bastards. 10:31:29 Yeah; I'm kinda upset about it too. 10:31:30 $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1 10:31:30 6,4M total 10:31:33 $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1 10:31:33 11M total 10:31:43 ehird, git is bloated. Even excluding docs 10:31:51 (and possibly other non-docs in /usr/share) 10:31:58 ... Git does a lot more than rcs. 10:32:03 pikhq, yeah of course 10:32:04 pikhq: I have to wonder if any user or developer ever really wanted dynamic linking before some crazy guy added it. 10:32:07 but that wasn't the point here 10:32:09 AnMaster: wow, rcs is that big? 10:32:12 git is that small? 10:32:19 that's a really tiny difference considering how much better git is 10:32:53 ehird, 13 MB with the compressed docs in /usr/share 10:32:57 gentoo uses lzma it seems 10:32:59 rcs is like the worst revision control system that actually does the job of a revision control system... 10:33:09 must have been a recent change 10:33:10 AnMaster: Gentoo uses whatever PORTAGE_COMPRESS is set to. 10:33:12 was bz2 before 10:33:14 You're being too kind to rcs, pikhq. 10:33:15 pikhq, true 10:33:22 pikhq: Consider. 10:33:25 CVS is actually better than RCS. 10:33:28 pikhq, worse than visual sourcesafe? 10:33:43 AnMaster: do you just have an internal macro that uses anything microsoft as a lowest common denominator? 10:33:50 They may have changed it in the 10.0 profile; I dunno, I set PORTAGE_COMPRESS to lzma quite a while ago. 10:34:11 ehird: RCS does the job. *Barely*. 10:34:21 pikhq: Yes, but, you know how bad CVS is? 10:34:25 Absurdly. 10:34:26 pikhq: CVS was AN IMPROVEMENT on RCS. 10:34:29 Think about that. 10:34:46 ehird, not a macro. it is a 10:34:53 form iirc? 10:35:04 Someone written in Lisp would never code in Bash and C. 10:35:07 ehird: I'm saying that the only things worse than RCS are adhoc shared directories with "branches" consisting of "renaming files" and crazy shit like that. 10:35:21 ah 10:35:23 special form 10:35:24 it waas 10:35:30 Your aa key is stuttering. 10:35:35 yeah 10:35:36 it is 10:35:43 Either that or your a key actually has "aa" printed on it, which would be lulzy. 10:35:55 cp foo "fooBar";cp foo "baz/foo"; # There's revision control! 10:36:17 "cp" "foo" "foobar" 10:36:23 Useless use of quotes award! 10:36:28 ehird, my finggeerrs are ccoold. 10:36:44 shatttering finger nails I gueesss 10:36:47 ehird: I typed that in meaning to use spaces and didn't use spaces. 10:36:54 AnMaster: Put the damn heating on. 10:37:00 ehird, it is on. 10:37:04 Turn it up. 10:37:45 ehird, how do you turn a fireplace up? 10:38:02 (j/k, both the electric heater and the fireplace are "on") 10:38:14 How cold is it indoors in Sweden?! 10:38:23 Surely those would be enough to warm any room. 10:39:03 ehird, house built in 1907. Sure it has been upgraded since then. But still, not quite the same as a modern house 10:39:18 Yes, but really, those would be enough to warm a 5 C room. 10:39:24 Maybe. 10:39:30 ehird: How warm of you. 10:39:43 ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm 10:39:55 I bet people in Nordic countries are actually warmer than e.g. Brits, because they always have heating on. 10:40:00 (indoors) 10:40:24 ehird, not during middle of summer 10:40:29 Well, yeah. 10:40:31 say, june-august 10:40:35 But your summers are probably better than ours. 10:40:37 in these parts of Sweden 10:40:44 We get, uh, rain. 10:40:47 Maybe a few days of sun. 10:40:50 maybe only July in north Sweden 10:40:56 ehird, we do get *some* rain too 10:40:59 Brr, subarctic climatee. 10:41:01 *climate 10:41:07 but UK always get rain 10:41:08 It's like bipolar disorder for weather. 10:41:29 HEY THIS SUMMER IS PRETTY COOL 10:41:34 wow it is winter and my toes fell off 10:41:37 repeat ad infinitum 10:42:00 also, the sun becomes retarded 10:42:06 "ima stay up here for dayz" 10:42:16 "but but i dont wanna get up for like. a day" 10:43:33 Incidentally... 10:44:00 You could make a passable multitouch surface with some patterned glass and a webcam chip. 10:44:08 Quite easy to detect a hand. 10:44:15 And fingers, with an appropriate pattern. 10:44:45 ehird, "a day"? 10:44:50 more than that in Kiruna 10:45:04 Yeah, it's like night and day for months in subarctic climates. 10:45:09 like a few months during summer all up and some months during winter all down 10:45:11 Horrible. 10:45:33 Although... 10:45:35 ehird, quite cool to see the sun going around to the north instead of setting 10:45:39 as a tourist I mean 10:45:43 wouldn't want to live there 10:46:02 The daylight parts + everyone adopts Uberman = HAHA WE ARE TOTALLY TWICE AS AWESOME AS YOU 10:46:05 * AnMaster has been up there during summer 10:46:20 "We're just up. Almost continuously." 10:46:25 "Day. Forever." 10:48:20 nah 10:49:13 Why nah? 10:50:14 people sleep during the time that would have been night 10:50:30 I know, but if everyone did adopt Uberman, it would be colossally awesome. 10:50:41 that is. when the sun is standing in north 10:52:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:52:21 Fun thing to do: Mirror entire compilation setup for my distro, type "mk". Watch every package in the whole distro compile. 10:52:29 Wheeeeeeeeeeee 10:52:50 ehird, in parallel? 10:53:12 does mk support -j (or equivalent) 10:53:14 ? 10:53:21 Yes: 10:53:27 * AnMaster imagines a cluster 10:53:43 "The environment variable $NPROC determines how many targets may be updated simultaneously; Some operating systems, e.g. Plan 9, set $NPROC automatically to the number of CPUs on the current machine." 10:53:43 ibm roadrunner. How many seconds will it take? 10:53:56 How about Blue Gene, which runs Plan 9? 10:54:06 ehird, heh good idea 10:54:07 Anyway, I don't know. Less than a minute for sure. 10:54:14 Maybe more if you include KDE ;-) 10:54:28 Anyway, I hope I don't outgrow having to compile every package myself... 10:54:44 I doubt I'd be able to get people to contribute server resources. 10:54:51 ehird, yeah. some stuff can't be done in parallel. Like when you have to generate the source file for something else (think: flex, bison, ...) 10:55:41 ehird, predition: you won't be the next ubuntu 10:56:07 Quite. 10:56:32 I don't expect more than, say, 100 users for a long time. 10:56:39 Even that's pushing it. 10:56:45 ehird, I'd expect ~1 user 10:56:52 I don't think that's true. 10:56:53 plus a few that tries it out 10:56:58 and then goes elsewhere 10:57:10 I'll be pretty committed to maintaining packages. 10:57:16 ehird, well. zzo could have used it. But he will likely make his own as well instead 10:57:18 And there isn't really anything like it. stali is the closest. 10:57:24 rather than using your 10:57:32 AnMaster: zzo doesn't innovate, though... he just reinvents at the same level. 10:57:37 He doesn't do anything new. 10:57:41 true 10:57:49 ehird, and adds options to it 10:57:49 Uh, no offence if he's reading this. 10:57:52 to set window title 10:58:06 Here's a good option: "Name of this option" 10:58:12 It's a string, defaults to "Name of this option" 10:58:17 heh 10:58:31 [X] The state of this option 10:58:57 mhm 10:59:45 I imagine if I posted it on the Arch Linux forums I'd get some users, even if only temporarily. (But I don't really like the crowd there.) 10:59:58 And I'm not masochistic enough to create busywork for myself like that. 11:00:10 ehird, unlike your mom 11:00:20 Uh-huh. 11:00:21 (too good chance to miss) 11:00:48 no offence meant of course 11:01:53 (heh "no offence meant" after a your mom joke really makes no sense) 11:02:27 Guess who else really makes no sense? 11:02:28 Hitler. 11:02:33 (No offence) 11:03:24 :P 11:08:22 I wonder how much stuff compiles with libc5. 11:08:57 ehird, why libc5? 11:09:13 I'm not suggesting glibc 11:09:20 just something modern 11:09:23 Last non-glibc release. I was just curious. 11:09:25 like uclibc or something 11:09:44 or porting BSD libc? 11:09:56 (actually scratch that) 11:10:15 uclibc is lgpl 11:10:22 okay 11:10:25 so I can't distribute statically linked uclibc binaries, 11:10:28 without also distributing an unlinked .o 11:10:32 = not happening 11:10:36 ehird, what will you use instead of bison? 11:10:43 and flex 11:10:44 Um, yacc. 11:10:46 ah 11:10:48 right 11:10:55 Of course if some stuff depends on either they can have it,. 11:10:58 *it. 11:11:09 ehird, iirc ick does 11:11:15 ais523, isn't that right? 11:11:22 Anyway, my only existing options are Newlib and Bionic (Android's). 11:11:39 Bionic doesn't support /etc/passwd or fstab and their user stuff is hardcoded and stuff, but with hackery it would make a nice BSD-licensed minimalist libc. 11:11:41 ehird, or porting netbsd libc 11:11:46 But still, it's always going to be dictated by Android. 11:11:54 Newlib is stale but, I think, acceptable. 11:11:57 It feels very meh, though. 11:12:02 And I don't like Red Hat. 11:12:07 AnMaster: ick depends on a yacc-like and a lex-like 11:12:08 AnMaster: That is one option. 11:12:13 I don't think they have to be bison and flex specifically 11:12:16 AnMaster: It'd be a lot of work, though. A lot. 11:12:22 They use lots of BSD-only stuff. 11:12:28 ais523, wasn't it some infinite lookahead for '. or something like that? 11:12:36 * AnMaster forgot the details of that parsing issue 11:12:38 AnMaster: And BSD libc and BSD kernel are even more tied together than BSD kernel and BSD userland. 11:12:52 I don't like being dictated by the whims of the developers of the BSD, y'know? 11:13:01 ehird, true 11:13:03 ehird, your own libc? 11:13:19 I'm no good at optimisation. 11:13:29 oh? 11:13:41 why not 11:13:44 Dunno. 11:13:54 Anyway, maintaining a compatible libc would be a metric fuckton of work. 11:13:59 Enough to build a small company around. 11:14:01 true 11:14:25 dietlibc would be so, so perfect if only its author wasn't a lunatic who GPL licenses it to stop Microsoft stealing it *sigh*. 11:14:38 ehird, what architectures will you support? 11:14:47 i686 11:15:09 no 64-bit? 11:15:09 before you ask the answer is compatibility 11:15:17 i said that before that appeared on my screen :) 11:15:31 ehird, reverse order here :P 11:15:38 diff by one sec 11:15:42 well 11:15:47 I don't have sub-second timestamps 11:15:47 anyway, 64-bit doesn't really have any advantages apart from registers 11:16:00 it uses the PAE hack just like you can do in 32-bit, so no advantages for lots of memory 11:16:01 ehird, and with more than 4 GB RAM. 11:16:05 PAE 11:16:06 ehird, wrong 11:16:10 PAE is for kerne 11:16:11 kernel* 11:16:21 user space can't have more than 4 GB in one process 11:16:24 well, sure 11:16:40 that's a pretty edge user case. 11:16:59 ehird, currently, sure 11:17:18 when it becomes common I'll flip some switches and make it 64-bit only 11:17:25 (processes using over 4 GiB) 11:17:50 ehird, and imagine working with IPv6 ips. dividing two of them on 32-bit needs a lot more operations than on 64-bit (no clue why you would do that though) 11:17:50 AnMaster: anyway clearly the larger filesystems and higher ram usage cause the need to use >4 GiB, 64-bit is inverse-of-self-defeating ;-) 11:18:11 IPv6 is divided into blocks 11:18:13 ...literally 11:18:18 true 11:18:35 you can, for instance, get all addresses divisible by 39853948 11:18:36 :-P 11:18:42 *note: total lies 11:18:55 err yeah total lies 11:19:17 but what then did you mean by blocks. Not same as I was thinking about presumably 11:19:23 i'd like to watch a totally serious documentary that isn't outrageously absurd, except the only problem is it's filled with things that are total lies 11:19:26 simply not true 11:20:00 ehird, if it wasn't outrageously absurd, idiots would think it was true 11:20:05 thus no one dare produce that 11:20:23 Just put "Note: All of the following contents are full of complete lies." at the start :P 11:21:02 ehird, no one would see that, everyone would think it was the usual "you may not copy, lend, watch or touch this dvd blah blah" 11:21:13 Then that is their problem. 11:21:53 (that was an example of outrageously absurd btw) 11:23:00 I think newlib is my best option for now 11:27:24 dddfs 11:28:36 a while back i wrote 2/3 out in full peano set theoretic notation 11:28:45 all {{{{}}}{}{}{}{{}}}, rhythm 11:29:01 well yesterday i got round to turning that into music 11:29:26 so { goes up a n-tatonic tone, } goes down, a comma is a pause and so on similarly 11:29:34 huh 11:29:43 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 11:30:16 it is surprisingly (except not because it's pretty richly structured) melodic 11:30:21 Pthing, peano set theoretic notation? *googles* 11:30:36 yeah 11:30:36 http://lebesgue.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/two-thirds-of-nothing/ 11:30:37 x_x 11:31:04 Pthing, that seems to be a rather verbose notation in any case 11:31:09 the integers are constructed as an equivalence set of ordered pairs of naturals 11:31:41 and 2/3 with a dedekind cut using integers 11:31:52 Pthing: i like this mp3 11:31:58 Pthing, how long is it? 11:32:03 uh, 20 minutes 11:32:08 Pthing, wow 11:32:14 there are shorter versions 11:32:16 says the classical listener. 11:32:35 ehird, usually you get around 10 minutes at most, unless it is Mahler. 11:32:46 this is more Gregor-esque 11:32:50 in length 11:32:54 so what 11:33:10 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 is 5 minutes for example 11:33:19 and considerably more manic, especially given it doesn't have rests 11:33:21 Pthing: i'm listening to this and all three of my neurons dedicated to saying "hey is this philip glass" are firing ontinuously 11:33:26 it's also not on any musical scale 11:33:27 Pthing, there is some bas sound in the bg? 11:33:30 ehird, yes, it's uncanny 11:33:31 Pthing, of the first one I mean 11:33:38 *continuously 11:33:50 AnMaster, two sources of gunk because I hacked it together quickly 11:33:58 the "rests" are actually 25 hz tones 11:34:18 the clicking is because when it adds tones, it just writes them sequentially, so it's all very cuspy 11:34:29 hence you get a clicking at every note, but I think it helps 11:34:30 Pthing, why not silent rests? 11:34:35 * ehird pauses to listen to the 5m one 11:34:37 AnMaster: wuick hack 11:34:39 as he said 11:34:41 mhm 11:34:41 *quick 11:34:52 i put it to 1 but something horrible happened 11:35:07 non-euclidean horrible? 11:35:08 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 isn't very good. :P 11:35:18 well see it's not even scaled 11:35:30 it just turns the frequency up or down 200 hz linearly 11:35:37 ah indeed 11:35:41 doing it on a chromatic scale is also weird 11:35:42 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetenth12-tet.mp3 11:35:44 because boring 11:35:55 but it sounds a little like The Flight of the Bumble Bee 11:36:00 * ehird lols 11:36:18 Pthing, ghostly theme on hyper speed? 11:36:30 for the last one 11:36:32 what's the ghostly theme 11:36:51 Pthing, thing SNES RPG or such. Ghost wood. the theme there. 11:37:01 where SNES RPG is any generic SNES RPG 11:37:05 (almost) 11:37:07 i don't know it, but I see your point 11:37:22 the philip glass thing is a good point 11:37:39 if it were orchestrated properly, it would sound surprisingly good for all that it is entirely algorithmic 11:37:43 Pthing, why not use midi btw? 11:37:57 because I've not worked out how to get python to do midi yet 11:38:01 hah 11:38:22 whereas getting it to write sine waves to wav is a matter of stealing code from somebody's blog 11:38:40 Pthing, http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonInMusic ? 11:38:43 first google hit 11:38:54 yeah, i looked all that up 11:39:18 but i figured also i might as well just do bleep bloop sine waves to see if it was worth making it prettier 11:39:54 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 settles into a beat after a while 11:39:56 a sort of rhythm 11:40:03 Pthing, using silence for pauses might work better. Not sure though 11:40:06 like, the repetition has abstracted away into a rhyythm 11:40:08 *rhythm 11:40:19 AnMaster, well undoubtedly yes 11:40:31 I like the little pats 11:40:37 click things 11:40:39 but duller 11:40:42 don't fix them :P 11:40:44 Pthing, especially since I have good enough headphones to hear those 25 Hz tones quite clearly 11:40:48 me too 11:40:51 AnMaster: lowpass 11:41:06 ehird, hm? 11:41:08 yeah i probably ought to try that 11:41:10 let's see 11:41:14 run it through a lowpass filter 11:41:15 but the clicks 11:41:16 at 25 Hz 11:41:24 ehird, I'm just doing: $ mplayer http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 11:41:30 So don't, ffs. 11:41:32 would be a PITA to figure out how 11:41:36 i don't see any way short of like, smoothing out the waveform somehow to get rid of them, nor do I want to get rid of them 11:41:39 sox 11:41:50 probably in the ~~real orchestration~~ there's some violins just going duhduhduhduhduh 11:41:53 Pthing: open audacity, put wav in, lowpass 11:42:00 yes 11:42:18 Pthing, why insert silence instead from the beginning? Is that harder? 11:42:25 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Spectrogram-of-swept-triangular-wave.png ;; the matrix data centre! 11:42:47 ehird, hah 11:42:54 AnMaster, yeah, the way I've jambed the stolen code in, it's difficult to get it to pass through to silence 11:43:10 without adding more jambed code, by which point I shouldn't be jambing shit together like that 11:43:20 Pthing, getting this on piano or such would be awesome 11:43:36 i still think it'd be better as a string quartet 11:43:59 Pthing, maybe. Seems a bit too fast for that though 11:45:08 Pthing, or playing pizzicato? 11:45:14 yeah! 11:45:23 pizzicto would get the clickiness, I guess 11:45:25 *cato 11:46:06 Pthing, I find it hard to believe any human could manage that for ~20 minutes though :P 11:46:12 then we'll build robots 11:46:19 a race of atomic supermen 11:46:23 ehird, about the beat. There is a beat from the start to me 11:46:31 aah I've always wanted a robotic math rock band 11:46:45 their timing would be IMPECCABLE 11:48:17 oh wait hang on i think i see a way to get silences 11:48:49 noo you'll ruin it 11:48:59 maybe, maybe not 11:49:01 we'll see 11:49:09 Just add "-af sinesuppress=25" or "-af equalizer=-12:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0" to the mplayer command line. (Disclaimer: I don't know whether either one will work, can't seem to find a generic FIR filter there.) 11:49:27 fizzie, the second one. What does it mean? 11:49:52 fizzie, the first one doesn't 11:50:08 nor the second 11:50:40 It's a 10-band equalizer; that line of numbers is telling it to provide -12 dB of amplification at 31.25 Hz, 0 on all other bands; it should at least make any 25 Hz frequency components less loud. 11:51:33 fizzie, not by much 11:51:55 the ending is n ice 11:51:59 the low tone 11:52:00 *nice 11:54:08 yeah okay that sounds like it worked 11:55:53 http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/crabs/technical-memorandum.pdf 11:55:53 awesome awesome awesome 11:57:15 Pthing, hm? where? 11:57:21 url that is 11:57:22 uploading 11:59:16 damn could you implement crabs on X11? 11:59:19 i think maybe 11:59:26 nothing's stopping windows from fucking with each other right? 11:59:59 ehird, what exactly does crabs do? I find that scanned text quite hard to read 12:00:14 headache-inducing 12:00:14 Zoom in 12:00:21 It's impossible at smaller sizes 12:00:24 But at bigger sizes it's fine 12:00:28 mhm 12:00:33 You really need to read it, it's awe-inspiring 12:00:39 AnMaster: it gets better on the actual text 12:00:45 starting "TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM", "Laws and violations" 12:00:58 I read the laws and violations section 12:01:08 quite funny. But I want like an abstract of crabs 12:01:17 Audacity's highpass filter gets rid of them reasonably well, but that's unarguably more work than just streaming through mplayer. (You really don't want to low*pass* at 25 Hz; unless you want to keep just them and discard everything else.) 12:01:25 AnMaster: your loss; it's absolute genius 12:01:30 summarising it would ruin it 12:01:33 mhm 12:01:48 ehird, it is pixly when you zoom in 12:01:57 Don't zoom in that far then. 12:02:22 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsectruerests5-tet.mp3 12:02:28 has true etc. 12:02:59 *Oh*, the name wasn't about "secrets" at all. 12:02:59 Pthing, those clicks. What causes them did you say? 12:03:18 Pthing: sounds more mechanical 12:03:31 fizzie, haha 12:03:41 it seems to be because it writes half a second of sine wave at, say, A, then it goes up and immediately starts writing another sine wave a tone higher 12:03:49 so the waveform is cuspy 12:03:53 which clicks, I guess 12:04:08 Pthing, go figure out midi :) 12:04:19 AnMaster: do you realise how demanding that sounds 12:04:26 ehird, yeah. 12:04:32 I was half-joking 12:05:01 ehird, what is that QIX? 12:05:05 that knowledge is assumed about 12:05:11 A game of some sort. 12:05:19 Doesn't matter too much 12:06:31 This is from 1984, btw 12:06:40 heh 12:06:42 Bonus: It includes screenshots of circa 1984 graphical Unix environments 12:06:45 Non-X11, I believe 12:06:53 Including the 1-bit faces 12:07:49 including code with k&r decls :) 12:08:05 why was one of them *dicating code* 12:08:14 Dicating? 12:08:20 -typo 12:08:39 (dictating of course) 12:08:40 Dictating i.e. explaining it 12:08:50 yes I know what it means 12:08:57 just wondering why they did it like that 12:09:01 No, dictating means reciting 12:09:04 But in this context it means explaining 12:09:11 And because people know English better than C 12:09:11 Pair programming, you know. Back in the eighties! How agile. 12:09:19 fizzie, haha 12:09:26 Their PRODUCTIVITY. So high. SO HIGH 12:09:58 hm 12:10:28 wasn't it possible back then to draw to a private buffer and blit it to the screen or such? 12:10:44 The graphical environment was called Blit. 12:10:59 I don't know what you mean, though. 12:11:10 ehird, double buffering basically I guess. 12:11:17 Sure, why wouldn't you be able to 12:11:29 * AnMaster just read about "angry measles" 12:11:36 Keep going! 12:11:40 It just gets better. 12:12:12 ehird, I'm just wondering why they can't look at a private bitmap. which might or might not be hidden by a window on top. In theory that would work as wlel 12:12:14 well* 12:12:29 Because you can't access other process's memory. 12:12:54 ehird, er. I think you misunderstood me 12:13:28 I mean, like a modern game would do. Render to a canvas. You can read it yourself. Window system takes care of handling hiding part of it when another window is on top 12:14:13 This has nothing to do with any of the demos. 12:17:39 Sure it does: anything that keeps a private bitmap and blits it on screen whenever some part of it changes (and periodically-but-often) is sort-of crab-immune. (The story about crabs eating someone's painting, for example, wouldn't really work on a modern painty program which doesn't use the screen as the only copy of the bitmap-being-edited.) 12:17:56 I'm not sure that sort of stuff would be fast enough on a terminal, though. 12:17:57 Ah. 12:17:58 Well, yes. 12:18:02 Too slow, not simple enough. 12:18:12 Not needed, because, you know. 12:18:19 Only things like crabs break it. 12:18:26 heh 12:18:32 Besides, it's not something that's easy to discovevr. 12:18:33 discoevr 12:18:35 *discover 12:18:43 It's quite ludicrous to do two graphic writes to do one 12:21:19 "TMBR: A mind consisting of computable determinism does not perceive." 12:21:19 Guess I'm a p-zombie then 12:22:18 "Anti-evolutionist Don McLeroy, a dentist and chair of the Texas State Board of Education, testified at Friday's hearing: 'I disagree with these experts. Someone has got to stand up to experts.'" Yes! Down with the experts, I say! Always being all.. experty, all over the place! 12:22:29 ehird, it mentions the lens being unaffected by being re-generated. Well, basically every modern app would be unaffected. terminal would be fixed by simply scrolling it up down a few steps 12:22:33 fizzie: >_< 12:24:18 AnMaster: Unless you make the crab mark onto a separate mostly-transparent window, and use a bit of programming to always keep that on top of the window below. 12:24:29 That's no faiar. 12:24:31 *fair 12:25:02 That one Windows proggie that lets you shoot your windows with a shotgun, leaving permanent marks, does something like that, I think. 12:25:03 fizzie, true, and what ehird said 12:25:40 "I believe that best form of government is a mix of libertarian, socialitic, free market policies." how coincidental, i believe the best colour is both black and white 12:26:33 "You are everybody but don't realize it." why am I reading this subreddit, it's just uninformed idiots stating their idiotic beliefs 12:26:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:29:22 * ehird toys with the idea of registering rwx.st 12:29:28 rwx.st? 12:29:29 why? 12:30:02 because I need a domain and it's short and catchy. rwx after the file permissions, st is a popular country-code-hijacked-for-generic-stuff dealie 12:30:43 plus it looks aesthetically pleasing — http://rwx.st/bsdutils/releases/bsdutils-12.tar.gz 12:30:49 ehird@rwx.st 12:31:03 ehird: And then everyone can read, write and execute you! 12:31:09 Absolutuely! 12:31:12 *Absolutely 12:31:21 Ooh, pointless X trickery: http://xdesktopwaves.sourceforge.net/ 12:31:56 Anyway, rwx.st is also pretty neutral, i.e. it's not really tied to anything because it's a meaningless jumble of letters 12:32:05 Hard to fool myself into thinking I'll keep it forever, but eh. 12:33:01 My only complaint is that on QWERTY, rwx is a bit left-biased. 12:33:15 However, it's quite easy to type. 12:34:30 heyo 12:34:45 fizzie, can't magnify screenshots 12:34:48 irritating 12:34:49 i should write a mail server thing. 12:34:50 hows it goin, kids 12:34:57 it's going 12:34:57 wait for it 12:34:59 TOTALLY 12:35:00 BITCHING 12:35:01 RAD 12:35:06 oh man 12:35:14 ehird, why write a mail server? 12:35:22 cuz they all suck :/ 12:35:25 cory doctorow has a new story out. :X 12:35:32 ehird, netqmail too? 12:35:39 AnMaster: Yes. I also am a bit doubtful as to how well it works on modern, compositey 3d-fluffy X stuff; the proggie seems a bit on the old side. 12:35:50 augur: does it include a really, really, really awkward sex scene? just kidding, of course it does 12:35:57 fizzie, oh I thought it used composite 12:36:00 (note: I have never actually read any cory doctorow novels) 12:36:00 it looked like it 12:36:09 AnMaster: qmail is probably nice if you apply 500 paatches 12:36:13 *patches 12:36:19 ehird: i dont know. its about decommissioning the first AI 12:36:20 ehird, yeah that is what netqmail is about 12:36:24 those 500 already 12:36:25 AnMaster: I don't really know; it's just that GCC 2.7 doesn't sound so new. But maybe they've just tested with old compilers too. 12:36:33 augur: "twiddle my bits baby" 12:36:36 fizzie, hah 12:36:38 :P 12:36:53 fizzie, okay, xshape is old iir 12:36:54 iirc* 12:36:56 AnMaster: doesn't qmail depend on daemontools crap anyway? 12:37:05 ehird, you can use other ones 12:37:11 ehird, like sysvinit even 12:37:19 AnMaster: Last release from Sat Dec 18 2004. 12:37:24 how about rc-shell-script-init :P 12:37:41 ehird, unsure. I would recommend a supervisor if possible. But not strictly needed I think 12:38:35 Anyway, um something was meant to go here but I got distracted 12:38:43 XD 12:39:09 i have not yet slept. 12:39:26 anyw- 12:39:30 i'm sure it was relevant 12:39:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:39:39 can't have been "it can't be too hard" writing a mail server will be a bitch 12:39:58 wonder if i could avoid imap, just rsync from the server to get your mail :) 12:40:12 ...since imap is really bad 12:40:46 so is smtp come to think of it 12:40:56 ehird, you can't avoid smtp 12:41:03 indeed 12:41:07 for like talking to other mail servers 12:41:08 you can avoid it for sending your own mail, though 12:41:13 ehird, oh? 12:41:21 for instance "ssh sendmail ..." 12:41:23 well the mail server needs to use it to send it onwards 12:41:26 (sendmail(1) != sendmail) 12:41:30 AnMaster: well, yeah. 12:42:17 ehird, ssh is bloated. Your distro should use telnet 12:42:19 ;P 12:42:29 in fact i was just starting to write a line complaining about ssh 12:42:35 and rcp 12:42:37 instead of scp 12:42:43 the negotiation crap in ssh is so stupid 12:42:50 "hurr let's put every encryption algorithm EVER" 12:42:50 ehird, oh? 12:42:52 "into it" 12:42:56 "and guarantee NONE OF THEM" 12:43:03 "and then, just, like, chit-chat for hours to decide which to use" 12:43:14 "WE ARE CRYPTOGRAPHERS FUCK YEAH" 12:43:32 ehird, it doesn't seem to take long to me? 12:43:33 also, ssh is really big so it's hard to trustt. 12:43:35 *trust 12:43:38 AnMaster: everything is fast. 12:44:48 i guess i should concentrate on getting myself some hardware 12:45:02 them new, cheaper, cooler and more energy-efficient i7s are looking mighty purty 12:46:04 lol, intel though will apparently never stop ripping people off 12:46:13 2.8 GHz, $289.99 12:46:18 2.93 GHz, $549.99 12:46:23 same specs otherwise 12:47:00 i mean really, is there a >=1 GHz processor in the world that cannot be overclocked by .13? 12:49:56 ehird, depends on if the 2.8 ones are made from bad 2.93 ones 12:50:05 like, "they still work just fine for the lower speed" 12:50:10 no, i highly doubt that 12:50:21 seeing as the core i7 is the highest-end desktop processor intel offer 12:50:23 somewhat like the 3 core cpus from 4 core cpus with one bad core 12:50:45 ...I'm driven to Core 2 slightly, though, because I'd like ECC... 12:51:00 ehird, i7 doesn't support ECC? 12:51:05 Nope. 12:51:06 not even in server editions? 12:51:09 Yes. 12:51:12 They're not i7. 12:51:16 They're Xeon "Nehalem". 12:51:21 right 12:51:25 ehird, why not go for that then 12:51:35 Because it costs like $500 more just for the CPU. 12:51:41 good reason 12:52:14 Hmm, not that bad 12:52:20 $639.99 for 2.93 GHz 12:52:29 No 2.8 GHz option though, just 2.66 GHz at $269.99 12:53:21 ehird, you probably want kernel and libc available in cpu specific versions. For other software generic would work well 12:53:31 well, maybe video player. Not sure 12:53:33 why? debian doesn't 12:53:41 i don't see anyone complaining 12:53:49 heck, debian are not even 686 12:53:52 they're 386 12:54:00 ehird, ubuntu does on i686 for i386 and i686 libcs iirc 12:54:11 well, cmov/non-cmov 12:54:19 using cmov eh 12:54:20 forgot when that was added exactly 12:54:24 sounds like someone's using a pentium 4 12:54:30 because it's a pessimisation on recent hardware 12:54:34 and if you are using a pentium 4 12:54:37 *BASH* 12:54:38 *BASH* 12:54:40 *BASH* 12:54:44 ehird, depends on if the branch is predictable 12:54:45 can dead people use pentium 4s? 12:54:55 http://ondioline.org/mail/cmov-a-bad-idea-on-out-of-order-cpus 12:55:05 it's bad. 12:55:23 ehird, when I profiled I saw basically no difference on modern hardware. But a large speed up on a pentium 3 12:55:35 is p3 even 686 12:55:37 in a specific sample 12:55:41 ehird, it is 12:55:49 well, whatever 12:55:51 everything is slow on a p3 12:56:08 ehird, not really. remember than 14 second boot with arch and no initrd? 12:56:14 well, sure. 12:56:17 p3 at 996 MHz 12:56:27 wanna donate that box? :P 12:56:28 (lol *almost* 1 GHz!) 12:56:30 ehird, no way 12:56:36 you suck :( 12:56:37 ehird, 20 GB PATA disk btw 12:56:44 oh and hm 512 MB RAM at most 12:56:46 stop saying pata nobody says pata 12:56:47 people say ide 12:56:59 Debian does somewhat CPU-specific kernels; linux-image-2.6-{486,686,amd64} are available on the i386 platform. 12:57:07 ehird, I say pata 12:57:10 p3s actually went up to 1.4 GHz 12:57:11 so does kernel 12:57:23 fizzie, amd64 on i386? 12:57:24 XD 12:57:47 AnMaster: Yes, if you want to run a 32-bit debian on an amd64-style CPU. 12:57:52 People do that sort of thing. 12:58:10 Oh, a good reason to write my own mail server: to write my own mailing list software. Duh! 12:58:10 Oh, and libc6-{,i686,amd64} too. 12:58:12 well chroot I guess 12:58:23 AnMaster: you can optimise for amd64 architectures without using long mode 12:58:32 * AnMaster forces ehird to use mailman 12:58:36 NOOOO 12:58:38 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:58:41 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:58:50 i hereby swear off mailing lists for ever and a day 12:58:57 * AnMaster forces ehird to read his font rendered in Ariel instead of Helvetica 12:59:05 i define ariel to be an alias to helvetica 12:59:06 HA 12:59:07 TYPOSPLOIT 12:59:07 his mail rendered* 12:59:12 ehird, argh. 12:59:37 phoenix ~ $ uname -a 12:59:37 Linux phoenix 2.6.31.5-L1 #1 Sun Nov 1 12:32:00 CET 2009 i686 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 12:59:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core#Core_i9 13:00:00 and yeah 500 MB RAM 13:00:02 says free 13:00:03 six cores? next year? 13:00:06 12 MiB of cache? 13:00:08 total used free shared buffers cached 13:00:08 Mem: 500 31 469 0 2 16 13:00:10 FUCK YOU IINTEL 13:00:15 FUCKING WITH MY MIND AND SHIT 13:00:16 at least it's the same socket 13:00:21 I HAVE LOTS OF MONEY ANYWAY RIGHT? 13:00:28 ehird, you do? 13:00:29 -!- fax has joined. 13:00:30 nope 13:00:48 ehird, why do you need high end hardware? 13:00:49 well i have quite a bit but that's just because i never buy anything and little amounts accumulate, funny how that works 13:00:58 I can't even get my puny 4G used: 13:00:59 total used free shared buffers cached 13:00:59 Mem: 3835 2116 1719 0 139 964 13:01:03 ehird, oh btw your distro might be binary. but to *you* it will be source based 13:01:04 since 13:01:08 you know 13:01:13 you will make the binary packages 13:01:16 AnMaster: separate step 13:01:26 i can install a package i compiled earlier that i'm not using 13:01:32 so really it's just like maintaining a source tree 13:01:37 a horrible source tree 13:01:41 full of horrible software 13:01:48 oh? 13:02:23 cpu MHz : 996.661 13:02:23 cache size : 256 KB 13:02:27 and 13:02:29 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pse36 mmx fxsr sse 13:02:31 so few 13:02:42 AnMaster: also because high end hardware is fast. and if you're careful with your system config and willing to get your hands dirty you can get it for quite cheap 13:03:11 and it's way cooler to have a silent supercomputer on the floor than a silent lagger 13:03:49 ehird, go arm 13:03:53 no. 13:03:55 cpu MHz : 600.000 13:03:55 cache size : 1024 KB 13:03:55 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 tm pbe bts est tm2 13:04:11 fizzie, more flags 13:04:17 Yes, but not so much more. 13:04:28 fizzie, what cpu is it? 13:04:35 model name : Pentium III (Coppermine) 13:04:37 for the one above 13:05:00 cpu MHz : 0.740 13:05:00 cache size : 0 KB 13:05:00 flags : 13:05:05 INTEL 4004 FUCK YEAH 13:05:10 An "Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz"; it's just the speedstep-or-whatever-they-called-their-cpufreq-thing that's made it 600 MHz. 13:05:22 fizzie, ah 13:05:33 fizzie, my p3 doesn't support cpufreq changes 13:05:37 so I win 13:05:45 ehird, sure. But you don't have one 13:05:52 ehird, and those spaces are all messed up 13:05:59 not aligned like what I pasted 13:06:00 The Atom I have has more flags than the Athlon X2. 13:06:01 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm movbe lahf_lm 13:06:06 i just copied the spaces from your first line 13:06:28 ehird, um they are aligned in monspace. so it can't be same for all 13:06:30 12 GiB of RAM for $249.99? why, don't mind if I do 13:06:35 AnMaster: don't care 13:07:02 fizzie, heh that's quite a mouthful 13:07:11 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority 13:07:15 is my laptop 13:07:17 I think they're just making those up nowadays. 13:07:21 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz 13:07:44 $291.98 for 12 GiB DDR3 ECC. 13:07:49 fizzie, that atom lacks nx? 13:09:01 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 xsave lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority 13:09:28 That's a work-workstation; we're almost flag-buddies, though there's some difference somewhere, judging from the length. 13:09:32 fizzie, must be a xeon or i7? 13:09:55 "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz", and apparently it has xsave that yours doesn't. 13:09:56 ugh, why can't i7 processors just support ecc? 13:09:56 fizzie, xsave is new 13:10:11 fizzie, said it same second 13:10:18 fizzie, what is xsave? 13:11:10 AnMaster: No idea. And according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Atom_microprocessors the Atom 230 I have has "XD bit (an NX bit implementation)". 13:11:18 * ehird filters mobos by manufacturer=intel 13:11:29 ehird, why? 13:11:36 AnMaster: damn foolin' mobo vendors ain't gonna fool me no' mo'! 13:11:45 at least i can trust intel to have a rock solid board 13:11:51 also: intel graphics 13:11:58 well 13:12:04 admittedly i don't know if you can get intel graphics on the i7 boards 13:12:24 ./include/asm/cpufeature.h:#define X86_FEATURE_XSAVE (4*32+26) /* XSAVE/XRSTOR/XSETBV/XGETBV */ 13:12:34 that is in /usr/src/linux-*/arch/x86 13:13:18 http://lwn.net/Articles/281921/ 13:13:27 dear amd: 13:13:34 why haven't you realised a good processor since the last time I checked up on you 13:13:38 you fail at life 13:14:54 Heh, this X2 workstation I have has an Athlon 64 X2 5600+ with a rated TDP of 89 W; the Atom box has a TDP of 4 W. That's quite a difference in performance/watt; I mean, this box is faster, but it's certainly not 89/4 times faster. 13:14:57 it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards 13:15:08 fizzie, heh 13:15:27 fizzie, I don't think it scales linearly anyway. but even so 13:19:20 The CSC guy's "future of supercomputing" presentation had one slide, where they had calculated some specs for a hypothetical one exaflops supercomputer using today's tech; it was something like half a million cores, using about 300 megawatts of power; that's 35 % of one of Finland's four nuclear reactors. Not very feasible. 13:21:28 It's funny how Wikipedia's "nuclear power plant" infobox has a "Status: Operating" line, and the "Operating" text is coloured green. It makes it look like it's hooked directly to the reactor sensors and displays real-time data. 13:22:42 :D 13:22:49 ehird, btw that cmov related link. Have you actually read it all? 13:22:57 ues 13:22:58 "It really all boils down to: there's simply no real reason to use cmov. 13:22:58 It's not horrible either, so go ahead and use it if you want to, but don't 13:22:58 expect your code to really magically run any faster. 13:22:58 Linus" 13:22:59 t 13:23:01 u 13:23:02 y 13:23:03 just pointing out that 13:23:11 my y and u keyss are swapped 13:23:19 AnMaster: yes but it demonstrates that having cmov versions of kernels is tupid 13:23:19 stupid 13:23:33 true 13:24:15 WTF 13:24:18 xedit has ispell 13:24:21 and syntax highlighting 13:24:39 AND AUTOINDENTATION 13:24:50 and paren matching 13:25:01 and ctags support 13:25:10 yes that xedit 13:25:19 ehird, bloated much? 13:25:28 you know which xedit i'm talking about right? 13:25:43 protip: control+middle button -> edit mode -> C/C++ 13:25:49 type in a simple program and see it get autoindented and highlighted 13:25:52 i never even knew. 13:27:17 ehird, I hardly remember xedit 13:27:18 FirePath (a VLIW-ish -- two ops per instruction, so maybe not so V -- all-SIMD architecture used in central-office DSL stuff) has a funky SIMD-conditional-execution thing. 13:27:23 AnMaster: start it and you'll remeember 13:27:25 *remember 13:28:12 http://everything2.com/title/FirePath has a bit of an example. 13:28:13 ehird, unable to find it. And ubuntu doesn't list a package containing it 13:28:21 um... it comes with x 13:28:27 failing that, install xedit package? 13:28:33 hmm 13:28:38 MRI machine! 13:28:58 apt-cache show xedit 13:28:58 W: Unable to locate package xedit 13:28:59 there 13:29:04 use the dpkg search thing 13:29:08 ehird, apt-file 13:29:10 ? 13:29:15 (Sophie Wilson was a guest at the Altparty event; first time I heard about FirePath. It's sadly so very unknown, except to people who do the DSL stuff.) 13:29:25 ehird, what is the case for the binary? 13:29:32 xedit 13:29:35 /usr/bin/xedit? 13:29:35 right 13:29:46 $ apt-file find /usr/bin/xedit 13:29:49 $ 13:30:03 ehird, I'm afraid ubuntu doesn't have it (jaunty at least) 13:30:10 "/usr/bin/xedit x11-apps [not avr32] " 13:30:13 That's for Debian. 13:30:42 No files called "xedit" in Ubuntu-jaunty. :/ 13:30:48 queer 13:32:06 karmic's "x11-apps" has xedit, too; that's even queererer. 13:32:24 x11-apps exists, contains no xedit? 13:32:26 Yes. 13:32:43 even have it installed 13:32:44 http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/x11-apps → http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/x11-apps -- the only difference is the xedit line. 13:33:01 fizzie, changelog entry about it? 13:33:09 x11-apps (7.4+2) unstable; urgency=low 13:33:09 * Add xedit 1.1.2, closes: #499085, #505064. 13:33:24 x11-apps (7.3+4) unstable; urgency=low 13:33:24 * Remove xedit from the package, it's unmaintained and broken 13:33:24 (closes: #321434). 13:33:24 * Remove xedit's conffiles on upgrade. 13:33:34 fizzie, huh 13:33:57 You can probably check out those bug report numbers for more details. 13:33:58 * AnMaster is too lazy to check those bugs out 13:34:08 argh you were half a second faster 13:34:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 13:35:13 hey, xedit is actually pretty good for editing C! 13:35:40 the syntax highlighting is very complete, the colours pleasing, the automatic indentation perfect... 13:35:46 and the keybindings good 13:36:11 Ubuntu bug #1: "Microsoft has a majority market share". Declined for Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, Hardy, Intrepid, Karmic; Nominated for Lucid. Sure. (Though I guess it's been that way all the time.) 13:36:43 fizzie, old 13:36:48 I always feel stupid doing 13:36:50 exit(...); 13:36:52 break; 13:36:52 you only just discovered it? 13:37:02 ehird, why would you do that 13:37:05 AnMaster: presumably he was commenting on the nomination 13:37:07 also, switch () 13:37:21 ehird, yes but why the break after it. It isn't required afaik 13:37:33 you can have fall through cases after all 13:37:57 c warnings etc. 13:37:59 ehird, so yeah you should feel stupid 13:38:14 i think inconsistency is worse. 13:38:25 ehird, hm gcc at least should be able to figure out exit() never returns, since it has __attribute__((noreturn)) iirc 13:42:43 things i don't like: the part where xedit just crashed onm me 13:43:31 mhm 13:43:38 ehird, thats a feature 13:44:08 (but a bug that it is active when INTERCAL syntax highlighting isn't used) 13:47:03 heh 13:48:48 FUCK 13:48:51 it happened again 13:51:13 ehird, install debugging symbols. Run under gdb 13:51:28 meh 13:51:34 prolly apple's x11 server 13:51:41 ah 13:58:53 -!- Telesforo has joined. 14:00:22 -!- Telesforo has quit (Client Quit). 14:00:54 "Message sending failed. Check E-Mail settings." Yay, what a colossally helpful error message. 14:01:23 Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator." 14:03:00 Got it from the phone when trying to send outgoing email. I guess it's possible the operator has a different outgoing-SMTP server for us mobile users, it's just that the only one I can find from the support pages is the one on their generic "email settings" page. 14:07:22 Right, there's some sort of blog comment saying that it's "smtp.mobiili.net" for that. Great. 14:08:20 Not that it works any better with that. 14:09:32 okay, this is just ridiculous 14:09:35 xedit has a lisp evaluator 14:12:30 No, *this* is ridiculous: To send email, I have to go to mailbox settings and toggle the "Security" setting to "Off", because otherwise it tries to use SMTP-over-SSL, which is not supported by the operator's outgoing SMTP server. To read email, I have to go back to the settings and toggle "Security" to "On", because that's the only way to make it use IMAP-oer-SSL, which is required by the IMAP server. 14:13:12 Okay, I guess the Lisp evaluator is pretty ridiculous too. Still. 14:20:54 That's funny; the 25 second sound clip is 2208 bytes. Format's 8 kHz narrowband AMR; since even the lowest codec in that family is 4.75 kbit/s, and that file has about 700 bits/s, I'm forced to conclude that it's just using the "store some statistics of the background noise and not the signal itself" mode for the whole file. 14:21:14 Maybe the phone wasn't the best possible device for recording the suspicious-sounding power supply noise after all. 14:32:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:37:25 Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator." <-- why the [] around c? 14:37:38 C 14:37:59 ehird, you mean [cC]? 14:38:12 english quotation style fail. 14:38:20 oh not a regex 14:39:26 fizzie, what power supply? 14:40:14 fizzie, store statistics of signal noise? is there really a sound format with that? 14:40:22 heh 14:40:32 AnMaster: Yes. 14:40:49 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMR-NB -- it's called Comfort Noise Generation (CNG) there. 14:41:24 I think Speex has it too. 14:41:48 At least the VAD and DTX parts; maybe not the noise generation. 14:42:23 -!- migomipo has joined. 14:42:47 "Discontinuous transmission is an addition to VAD/VBR operation, that allows to stop transmitting completely when the background noise is stationary. In a file, 5 bits are used for each missing frame (corresponding to 250 bit/s)." I guess Speex doesn't store noise statistics, at that. Well, AMR does, anyway. 14:44:06 AnMaster: Indicates that it was originally capitalized but I changed it to lower case. 14:44:54 Deewiant, ah 15:11:32 -!- ehird has quit. 15:16:01 i think im going to go to a cafe and chill for the whole day 15:16:14 who thinks i should do this? 15:16:25 you 15:16:47 besides me! 15:20:06 * AnMaster doesn't care 15:21:07 :( 15:21:09 ok bye 15:25:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:34:01 -!- atrapado has joined. 15:37:05 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:47:46 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:00:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:02 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:07:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:11:51 -!- coppro has joined. 18:03:42 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 18:06:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:13:09 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 18:23:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:30:35 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 19:16:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:22:38 AnMaster: iwc :D 19:22:48 oerjan, indeed 19:22:55 oerjan, but you weren't here hours ago when I read it 19:23:04 oerjan, what the hell was it about now again? 19:23:18 kyros and bad choices 19:23:24 aaah yes 19:23:27 two clearly linked concepts 19:23:36 well... that's given 19:29:03 -!- Oranjer has joined. 19:43:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:43:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:39 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:42 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:44 -!- comex has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:44 -!- EgoBot has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:48 -!- migomipo has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:50 -!- Deewiant has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- adam_d has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- dbc has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- Asztal has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- fungot has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- fizzie has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- cal153 has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:03 -!- comex_ has joined. 19:44:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:44:14 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:44:17 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:44:25 -!- comex_ has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:25 -!- fizzie` has joined. 19:44:26 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:29 -!- fizzie` has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:30 netsplit?!? 19:44:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:44:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:44:42 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:44:49 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:44:58 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:45:01 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:45:02 -!- adam_d has joined. 19:45:05 ##overflow is filling up massively fast 19:45:09 it's not a netsplit 19:45:19 oh 19:45:22 I think the server went mad and decided to K-line /everyone/ 19:45:27 :O 19:45:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:45:30 -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.15] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45) 19:45:31 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:45:36 Yes, that was pretty strange. 19:45:43 -!- coppro has joined. 19:45:50 Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15. 19:47:10 oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10 19:47:22 -!- dbc has joined. 19:47:29 "-Md- [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly" Heh. "Sorry that we killed you. Our bad." 19:47:29 I'm not surprised that that IP is banned 19:47:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:47:42 but I am surprised that it misdetected the IP that badly 19:48:49 -!- comex has joined. 19:54:20 what 19:54:24 the 19:54:26 fucking 19:54:28 crazy 19:54:28 I was also 0.0.0.15 19:54:30 hell 19:54:33 what 19:54:36 what happened 19:54:40 AnMaster: freenode went mad and k-lined /everyone/ 19:54:42 including services 19:54:44 -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.10] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45) 19:54:45 [20:46:50] [>> $*] [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly 19:54:48 If you didn't notice 19:54:53 reconnected on ipv6 19:55:09 yay me! I love being immune to horrible, horrible bad luck 19:55:26 FireyFly, .10 not .15 19:55:34 [20:45:52] Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15. 19:55:34 [20:47:12] oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10 19:55:36 I was .10 too 19:55:39 And yes, my was reported as .15 19:55:41 FireyFly, I wasn't connected at that point I think 19:55:50 That's three .10s, two .15s. 19:55:55 at least I never got the message 19:56:04 BeholdMyGlory was .190 19:56:11 Oranjer, on ipv6? 19:56:35 I heard some on another network (chatspike) that mentioned being unaffected. They all used ipv6 19:56:49 ah 19:56:52 argh 43 seconds lag 19:56:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:56:55 I hate this 19:57:30 * oerjan was never k-lined, he thinks. 19:57:35 * oerjan feels special 19:58:17 I see 19:58:19 still joining channels it seems 19:59:23 heh 19:59:49 -!- Oranjer has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:00:20 I'm unable to join #freenode 20:00:27 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:00:39 get redirected to ##overflow 20:00:47 I was 0.0.13.238 20:00:53 i am unable to _list_ #freenode 20:02:19 i don't think i am using ipv6 to connect to freenode 20:02:19 oerjan, hm? 20:02:21 what does that mean 20:02:27 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 20:02:32 21:00 LIST Server load is temporarily too heavy. Please wait a while and try again. 20:02:51 * Channel #freenode modes: +tncPLfJ 20:02:56 AnMaster: /list command? 20:02:57 I can see 20:03:01 hm 20:03:07 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:03:15 with /mode 20:03:28 Deewiant: Ooh, your number is very big. 20:03:29 « quit » {AnMaster} {n=AnMaster@90.130.2.147} Nick collision from syn. 20:05:10 oerjan, I don't think you remember what that does. And I'm too lazy to explain 20:05:12 plus it won't work on freenode anyway 20:05:24 MizardX, I'm well aware 20:06:25 what doesn't work on #freenode? i've used /list many times 20:06:33 fizzie: And not 0.0.0 either! 20:07:31 heh 20:07:38 oerjan, you mean /names or /who 20:07:40 not /list 20:07:45 /list lists channels 20:08:00 AnMaster: i _was_ listing a channel. sheesh. 20:08:05 oerjan, um 20:08:12 oerjan, *list channel names* 20:08:16 it's what i use to see a channel topic 20:08:31 and number of users 20:08:31 oerjan, can you list #gentoo or something like it? 20:08:50 hm #freenode is +m now 20:08:58 21:08 #gentoo 756 Gentoo Linux support | Can't speak? /join #gentoo-ops | Paste over 4 lines? http://dpaste.com | KDE4? xrl.us/otdxr + #gentoo-kde | e2fsprogs block fix: xrl.us/bea7ut | X Server 1.5? Bust KB/Mouse? xrl.us/bem6c4 1.6? http://xrl.us/bfqrjt | poppler blocks? xrl.us/bephtt | Gentoo 10.0 LiveDVD: xrl.us/gentoo10years | Profiles: 20:09:04 2008.0->10.0 | irefox/ nvidia-drivers/ glibc/ nptl downgrade? sync and retry 20:09:48 hm ok 20:09:54 <+RichiH> -- PLEASE READ: we had a massive bug in one of our internal service bots which caused a massive, network-wide kill. that christel was mentioned is pure chance so please do not message her about it. we are working on fixing the problem. the bot has been disabled, for now -- 20:10:05 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:56 AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D 20:11:03 oerjan, hah 20:18:46 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 20:22:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:53:45 * pikhq too wasn't disconnected 20:54:07 :O 20:59:17 -!- augur has joined. 21:00:00 I think I figured out who was disconnected (which also explains why I wasn't). 21:00:40 Ilari, oh? 21:01:21 oh? 21:01:41 Pretty much anybody whose local part of ident starts with 0-9, a-f or A-F. Mine starts with 'u' (the real account name would start with 'I'). 21:01:52 :O 21:02:56 hm maybe it did things alphabetically and was stopped halfway through 21:03:23 :O 21:03:29 * oerjan goes to see what that http://announce.freenode.net link was about 21:03:29 I wonder who stopped it! 21:04:37 oh it's hexadecimals 21:04:46 indeed 21:04:52 :O 21:08:39 Some apparently think that it is not possible to have Unix login names that start with capital letter. Not true. 21:09:07 Ilari, it is? 21:10:10 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 21:11:32 login[21013]: FAILED LOGIN (2) on '/dev/tty4' FOR 'UNKNOWN', Authentication failure login[21013]: pam_unix(login:session): session opened for user Ilari by LOGIN(uid=0) 21:12:08 The first is what one gets for trying to log in as user 'ilari'. 21:13:09 Ilari, eh, well it is case sensitive 21:13:12 what did you expect 21:13:15 It's certainly possible. It just makes logging in a pain on certain old terminals. 21:13:16 oh 21:13:22 (which are still supported by termcap) 21:14:36 The reason why it wasn't possible in some systems is compatiblity feature of terminal emulation. But Linux TTY emulator doesn't have that feature (because it doesn't need it). 21:16:36 http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Vivaldi-Masterpieces-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B002POQ2UQ . Go. Buy. 21:17:58 why? 21:19:40 ah, cheap, good point 21:21:36 Haha... What would Vivaldi think if he saw that? 21:23:24 Oh, so the IP is also about hexadecimals; so 'ais523' => 0xa => 10 => 0.0.0.10; 'fis' => 0xf => 15 => 0.0.0.15; 'deewiant' => 0xdee => 3566 => 0.0.13.238. 21:23:27 Funky buggery. 21:23:55 MizardX: Well, after taking a few years to explain the very most basics of all the technology employed, the value of a dollar, and the major changes in economic conditions from when he was alive 'til now, I'm thinkin' not much. 21:23:59 fizzie: Heh, well spotted. 21:24:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:24:39 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:24:44 he was (apparently) a priest, so I doubt he cared about money 21:24:45 Ah, it was in the announcement. 21:24:50 died poor, too 21:31:32 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:42 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 21:34:28 netsplit? :-P 21:34:35 AnMaster> unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007 21:34:37 yes they have 21:36:19 Deewiant: I read the announcement only after spotting that fact; though admittedly I spotted it only after hexadecimals were mentioned. 21:39:20 -!- adam_d has joined. 21:39:30 :O 21:39:37 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 21:44:35 conclusion from this symbol: ⇔ dejavu has sucky hinting outside the more common symbols. 21:44:41 dejavu sans mono that is 21:44:49 it's a blur here 21:45:04 somewhat better on the higher DPI screen of my laptop. But not much 21:45:35 -!- madbrain has joined. 21:45:41 AnMaster: Yeah, that's pretty awful. 21:45:43 Anyone interested in a system design compo? 21:45:49 http://s.engramstudio.com/src/sdc.txt <- tentative rules 21:45:54 Gregor, you see what it is supposed to be? 21:46:00 when copying it I assume 21:46:05 AnMaster: Yeah. 21:46:07 it is the <=> thing 21:46:13 AnMaster: Liberation mono is a bit better. 21:46:31 Gregor, sans-serif and monospaced? as many symbols? 21:46:43 I could make a version of the compo with faster fast page ram or EDO or SDRAM but that's more complicated and can wait 21:46:46 * pikhq may need to switch fonts -- that is rather annoying. 21:46:49 Yes, yes and yes. But by "a bit" I really meant "a bit", not "a lot". 21:47:01 pikhq, to or from dejavu? 21:47:13 Gregor, this is at 9 pt btw 21:47:20 that I'm using it 21:47:36 AnMaster: From Deja Vu Sans Mono. 21:47:45 pikhq, you could make a patch or something 21:47:48 The other Deja Vu fonts seem to have nice hinting. 21:47:48 for the hinting 21:47:57 pikhq, but you need mono space 21:47:58 ... 21:48:01 on irc 21:48:14 just do /msg chanserv help (or /cs help on a properly set up client) 21:48:15 Not all that nice when it comes to things like <=> or => or ->... 21:48:29 AnMaster: I use a terminal for most things. 21:48:33 pikhq, → looks good here 21:48:41 -> and => are hard to distinguish. 21:48:42 well. 21:48:45 could be better 21:48:48 pikhq, yeah 21:48:50 (the combination, not the two-character sequence) 21:48:56 well of course 21:49:32 Liberation mono? seems to be missing it *goes font hunting* 21:49:49 * AnMaster emerges 21:53:09 ... from the depths of the netherworld! 21:53:39 Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package 21:54:56 brb restarting client to make it see the new fonts... 21:55:27 why couldn't it see the new ones on the fly 21:55:39 * AnMaster just reconnected to the bouncer 21:55:58 argh 21:56:13 Gregor, that liberation is smaller at 9 pt 21:56:18 and ugly 21:56:23 this is not sans serif 21:56:25 this is serfi 21:56:28 serif* 21:56:42 Liberation mono is sans serif. 21:56:53 Hrm. Actually, it seems to be inconsistent-serif :P 21:57:00 Gregor, exactly 21:57:06 that was unusable 21:57:28 You fontophiles are idiots. 21:57:36 AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-) 21:57:47 I can understand the complaint about <=>, but this is just nonsense. 21:57:48 AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-) <-- what? 21:57:59 * AnMaster doesn't have scrollback from before disconnecting 21:58:19 Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package 21:58:31 Gregor, I'm no fontofile. I prefer Ariel over Helvetia because the font spacing is proper in konqueror with it 21:58:37 Rugxulo, ah that 21:58:56 Gregor, I'm the person who is interested in proper colour handling 21:59:01 with 16 bits per channel 21:59:02 and such 21:59:18 Colorphiles. 21:59:20 everything is slow on a p3 21:59:31 some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! 21:59:51 Rugxulo, yes 22:00:32 so you still run a P3 box? 22:00:53 good :-) 22:01:13 some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! ; It is true of all lines of Intels (at least since P1pro) that there are early models of the newer one that is slower than the latest models of the previous one. 22:01:24 Rugxulo, I have one 22:01:33 996 MHz 22:01:44 six cores? next year? 22:01:48 I swear it is faster than the 2 GHz P4 I used to have 22:01:49 I thought that was later this year? (guess not) 22:02:00 faster at what, Gentoo or something else? 22:02:24 AnMaster: That's just because the P4 is always running so hot that it has to run slow to avoid melting :P 22:02:39 seriously, that's probably true 22:02:55 Rugxulo, compiling, running stuff, generic. And the p4 ran gentoo, but the p3 runs arch 22:02:56 * Rugxulo has a P4, hasn't used it too much lately except when router got scrambled temporarily 22:03:03 * pikhq should get a P4 for the sake of warming his coffee 22:03:14 compiling depends on the GCC used, etc. 22:03:21 Though, knowing P4s, that should more be "making his coffee"... 22:03:27 Rugxulo, the p4 broke in early 2006 iirc 22:03:29 or around there 22:03:41 what exactly broke on it? just stopped working? 22:03:42 the p3 I got my hands on in mid 2007 22:04:09 the only really "bad" part about a P3 is how heavily ignored SSE1 is by programmers 22:04:18 Rugxulo, it refused to boot. Removing CPU showed some black parts on it 22:04:21 as in 22:04:22 charred 22:04:26 was it overclocked? 22:04:31 Rugxulo, it wasn't 22:04:54 P4 broke even classic software optimizations, so no wonder it was slow 22:05:12 Rugxulo, and heatsink and such was cleaned regularly. 22:05:18 with compressed air 22:05:30 every 2-3 months or so 22:05:43 ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm 22:05:52 you could maybe use another one to kill two birds with one stone ;-) 22:06:00 Rugxulo, hah. 22:06:07 Rugxulo, I care about environment a bit 22:06:18 so I try to go by bus instead of car and so on 22:06:48 (no train around here that could do the job. well there are trains, but they don't go on useful times) 22:06:50 I know I know, P4 isn't optimal in any form 22:10:46 your laptop already has VMX? 22:10:59 oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX 22:11:34 2.26 Ghz, does it get good battery life? 22:12:49 it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards 22:12:54 not if you want to use latest Ubuntu :-P 22:13:24 oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX 22:13:25 no 22:13:30 it is an intel core 2 duo 22:13:45 Rugxulo, as for battery life. around 3 hours with wlan off 22:13:55 2.5 with wlan on at uni 22:13:59 2.75 with wlan on at home 22:14:17 due to the storm of broadcasts from misconfigured laptops at university 22:14:24 you know. mdns, upnp and so on 22:14:37 zeroconf and what not 22:14:44 um... it comes with x 22:14:51 then that's not the Xedit I was thinking of 22:15:01 Rugxulo, oh you were talking about the flags I posted? 22:15:06 some hours ago 22:15:20 probably ... yes, sorry, reading logs in lieu or real conversation ;-) 22:15:32 3 hours w/ what size battery? 12 cell??? 22:15:42 Rugxulo, 6 cell iirc 22:15:50 that's still better than mine 22:16:00 Rugxulo, it is more like 2 hours and 55 minutes though 22:16:05 but I don't dare run it to 0 22:16:23 I stop at 5-10% 22:16:42 AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz w/ 6 cell only gets 2 hours MAX on power saver!! (e.g. both cores halved) 22:16:59 Rugxulo, AMD CPUs use more power 22:17:00 other than that they are better IMO 22:17:23 I knew AMD used more power, but still ... pretty crappy to not even be able to watch a 2 hour DVD, barely 22:17:31 and it still gets noticeably warm, bah 22:17:44 Rugxulo, oh I never tried watching dvd on it 22:17:47 but it does at least match (or surpass) my P4 in performace 22:17:58 I don't either, just saying, kinda inconvenient 22:18:02 Rugxulo, I plan to replace the dvd drive in the ultrabay with an extra battery 22:18:19 you can get a 12-cell, probably helps more than replacing the DVD drive 22:18:27 Rugxulo, no place in backpack for that 22:18:33 also probably my fault for using Vista (even 7 claims better battery life) 22:18:46 Rugxulo, I use linux. Of course. 22:18:54 though I remember antiX Mepis not being too great either (shut off without warning) 22:18:55 can't use anything lacking a proper shell 22:19:08 "antiX Mepis"? 22:19:10 what is that 22:19:18 some "lightweight" Mepis derivative 22:19:36 I've tried a billion liveCDs, just never installed any 22:19:42 and not really *nix savvy 22:19:56 Rugxulo, what is mepis? 22:20:00 Linux 22:20:00 sounds familiar 22:20:06 never tried mepis 22:20:10 * AnMaster uses ubuntu on laptop 22:20:16 because things just work. Mostly 22:20:19 http://antix.mepis.org/index.php/Main_Page 22:20:26 haven't tried it lately, had a few issues I didn't like 22:20:37 but at least it had DOSBox by default, which I liked 22:20:54 Rugxulo, where would I find software to run in it 22:20:55 oh and 22:21:04 it would be one or two clicks away in most distros 22:21:07 in DOSBox or Mepis? 22:21:13 in dosbox 22:21:24 I have a (lame) DOS-related website 22:21:37 Rugxulo, never saw the point of DOS 22:21:44 horrible command interpreter 22:21:55 then use 4DOS or DJGPP Bash ;-) 22:22:04 Rugxulo, and no memory protection 22:22:08 and no multi tasking 22:22:22 memory protection in DJGPP (and other DPMI stuff), etc. 22:22:25 djgpp + libraries helps with a couple of these 22:22:30 hell even Apple's System 7 had multi tasking. (no memory protection though) 22:22:37 multitasking not free but exists (Win 3+, Desqview, DR-DOS 7) 22:22:38 Rugxulo, no multi tasking 22:22:58 Rugxulo, yeah. Windows indeed. then go NT and drop DOS completely 22:22:59 use DOSEMU or DOSBox with a "real" OS in the background for multitasking 22:23:08 then run dos from win9x 22:23:17 one of these days I wish I would know enough to make my own DOS-oriented distro (based on uber-lean Linux, most likely) 22:23:18 I fail to see the point of windows OR dos 22:23:20 seriously 22:23:38 "run DOS from Win9x" ... but it ain't free and limits you in some ways 22:23:42 there is no universal solution 22:23:51 I grew up on macs. Used windows for a short while (including XP). But then went completely Linu 22:23:52 linux* 22:23:55 various distros 22:23:58 NT didn't drop DOS completely, just much weaker support 22:24:05 red hat 5.0 was the first linux distro I tried 22:24:08 it was pretty bad 22:24:13 AnMaster: DOS is mostly useful by merit of being a very low-level OS that's at least vaguely usable. 22:24:17 still compared to windows back then it was awesome 22:24:23 DOS has "no point" if you're not used to it 22:24:29 pikhq, very very vaguely 22:24:36 just like C++ or Java have no point if you don't grok them 22:24:46 Rugxulo, I grok more C++ than I'd want to 22:24:51 for my own sanity I mean 22:24:55 * AnMaster shudders at templates 22:24:59 I have come to grok C++ template programming. 22:25:02 * pikhq shudders 22:25:12 dunno, I like DOS stuff but it's rare to find some use where you couldn't do it in win32 instead 22:25:24 madbrain: Loadlin? 22:25:34 what is that? 22:25:37 that's because Win32 has had most everything from DOS ported to it (and Linux also), plus all new stuff only targets the main three (OS X, Win32, Linux) 22:25:41 A Linux bootloader. 22:25:50 And a DOS executable. 22:26:21 shudder 22:26:28 just use grub 1 or lilo or something 22:26:34 (no, don't use grub 2) 22:26:34 It's nowhere near as crazy a hack as you'd think, too. 22:26:44 probably more useful when UMSDOS worked (2.4 kernels) 22:26:57 Rugxulo, what was the point of UMDOS 22:27:03 * AnMaster forgot what UMDOS even was 22:27:07 or UMSDOS 22:27:08 no need to repartition just to try Linux 22:27:09 AnMaster: Dual-boot Linux/Windows setups. 22:27:09 or whatever 22:27:16 just dump some files atop your pre-existing FAT and voila 22:27:18 Very useful before XP. 22:27:21 um like a disk image file? 22:27:26 oh I see 22:27:28 no 22:27:42 No, the Linux filesystem was FAT. 22:27:46 mkdir linux ; cd linux ; unzip old_linux.zip ; linux.bat (runs) 22:28:14 it used FAT as host file system, no ext2 required 22:28:17 (... with extra metadata) 22:28:30 ---linux.--- (or similar, I forget) 22:28:39 this was before QEMU, BOCHS, etc. became popular 22:28:47 even 2.4 had ext3 iirc? 22:28:55 well not early ones 22:28:57 but later on 22:29:23 * AnMaster prefers virtualbox over those 22:29:26 yeah, but you can't run DOS or Windows on ext3, and plus usually those took up the whole drive by default 22:29:42 I like VirtualBox too, it runs very well (when it works, which is most of the time, thankfully) 22:29:53 Rugxulo, resize partitions? I'm pretty sure there was some tool for it 22:29:56 even back then 22:30:05 assuming you actually wanted to resize 22:30:08 Rugxulo, except for plan9 22:30:14 then you need qemu 22:30:24 this was probably also before liveCDs became popular 22:30:59 no I really fails to see the point of DOS or windows. DOS very much so 22:31:05 completely pointless nowdays 22:31:30 Kind of like esoteric programming 22:31:38 UMSDOS predates emulation at sane speed. 22:31:55 DOS is pointless if you don't know / like it 22:32:08 DOS had a point when window's gfx stuff was too slow 22:32:30 Deewiant, not quite. If /// was TC or not was pretty interesting 22:32:32 for example 22:32:56 madbrain, I said "nowdays" 22:32:57 But quite pointless. 22:33:18 C64 I can understand people being nostalgic about 22:33:22 I like DOS mostly for my familiarity with it and its small size 22:33:24 but DOS‽‽‽‽ 22:33:32 Why C64 but not DOS? 22:33:43 well, the c64 did have a flavor yeah 22:33:43 Deewiant, to begin with: SID chipset 22:33:44 DOS has lots of good games, too 22:33:56 Rugxulo, not what I'm talking about 22:33:57 I think SID is overrated though 22:34:09 AnMaster: Why SID but not PC speaker? 22:34:18 Deewiant, because SID actually sounded good? 22:34:19 Or adlib, or Roland MT-32, or whatever 22:34:27 plus I can beep the pc speaker inside linux 22:34:29 PC speaker sounded good too 22:34:29 if I want too 22:34:30 easily 22:34:38 And you can emulate a SID easily 22:34:42 Deewiant, yes 22:34:52 which is why I don't have a c64. I use an emulator 22:34:56 well, on PC most games that sounded good had soundtracks mixed in real time 22:35:10 madbrain, probably. What about it? 22:35:18 and what was adlib? 22:35:29 or Roland MT-32? (sounds familiar, unlike adlib) 22:35:35 adlib is actually complex and interesting hardware 22:35:49 roland mt-32 sounded a lot better but nobody had that 22:35:53 way too expensive 22:36:11 madbrain, oh? how do they compare to stuff like my Soundblaster Live! 5.1? 22:36:13 plus most of the sounds are in ROM and you can't change them 22:36:14 Love it's sound 22:36:40 The SB live is, like, a DSP 22:36:54 you give it something like 512 instructions to process sound 22:36:54 madbrain, indeed. And it has good bass tones 22:37:05 Even the adlib has good bass 22:37:20 http://www.adlibtracker.net/ 22:37:22 madbrain, actually I just use it for it's hardware midi and good bass compared to on board sound 22:37:31 (somebody in here claimed to write some stuff with that, madbrain???) 22:37:36 * AnMaster is using a 71 MB soundfont 22:37:41 ruxglo: yeah 22:37:59 and (surprise!) AT2 needs DOS ;-) 22:38:09 ruxglo: http://8bitcollective.com/music/mad/Oskari+goes+to+Soundblasterland/ 22:38:31 madbrain, FM synth? 22:38:34 yeah, AdT2 is hard to run out of dos 22:38:38 anmaster: yeah 22:38:40 what is that 22:38:45 I'm used to high quality samples 22:38:57 because I care about that sort of stuff 22:39:07 basically the adlib combines 2 waveforms to make a more complicated one 22:39:32 madbrain, oh algorithmic synth is inferior to samples 22:39:36 if that is what you mean 22:39:50 adlib is an algorithmic synth yes 22:40:11 mt-32 is also partially algorithmic, and partially (very small) samples 22:40:22 madbrain, I have a roland electric piano next to me. Should tell you I expect some decent sound :P 22:40:30 when playing 22:40:31 mt-32 has reverb though 22:41:27 madbrain, was that one of your songs? 22:41:32 yeah 22:41:34 madbrain, you can emulate it in software on modern hardware 22:41:37 easily 22:41:39 yaeh 22:41:39 sounds good ;-) 22:41:50 sound hardware is basically dead 22:41:51 which is not exactly true of my sb live yet 22:42:16 anmaster: you could probably rip the samples out of it and reverse engineer its reverb :D 22:42:22 madbrain, depends. my sb live does manage better low bass (25 Hz and below) than any on board stuff 22:42:31 that I have seen 22:42:33 and yes 22:42:40 I have professional headphones. 22:42:46 I can hear those tones 22:43:00 the on board via just cuts off below 50 Hz 22:43:16 might be due to stupid DAC design on onboard 22:43:26 whatever the laptop has cuts off below 45 Hz. But below 70 Hz it is very weak 22:43:34 I think it is intel on board 22:43:43 aha yeah they do that on laptops sometimes 22:43:50 they put a highpass filter 22:43:54 dumbest idea ever 22:43:58 ouch 22:44:02 why? 22:44:06 no idea 22:44:09 madbrain, and the via stuff is on desktop 22:44:10 might be battery related 22:44:37 maybe you could get unfiltered sound with some soldiering 22:44:49 madbrain, it's less than half a year. No way 22:45:03 madbrain, btw my headphones are http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1 22:45:31 nice 22:46:00 I don't have a budget for that sort of expensive stuff yeah 22:46:13 luckily classical music doesn't suffer quite as much from that cut off as other music 22:46:18 still it suffers 22:46:43 and I love classical music. And also other art music from other periods. Like the romantic period 22:47:10 what you could do is use the SBlive then 22:47:21 madbrain, yep. But not when traveling with my laptop 22:47:29 of course those headphones are pretty bulky 22:47:47 madbrain, only complaint I have is listed in that link: 22:47:49 "Average pressure on ear acc. to IEC 60268-7 4.5 N" 22:48:06 I think this is mechanical pressure 22:48:10 from the headphones 22:48:36 slightly too much to be completely comfortable for long time wear 22:51:40 but yeah many DOS games use software synthesis instead 22:52:31 which depends on the quality of the samples but is usually good 22:52:36 madbrain, most of the time I prefer real recorded music. High quality stuff. CDs 22:52:49 or CDs ripped to lossless 22:55:18 AnMaster, how much RAM does your laptop have? 22:55:45 dunno about CD audio... it sounds good but it tends to be a tad more disconnected from the game action 22:55:57 Rugxulo, 4 GB. Why? 22:56:13 okay, that's what I thought I remembered 22:56:14 was 2 GB initially 22:56:20 added another 2 22:56:32 madbrain, oh I didn't mean for game 22:56:44 madbrain, I meant for sitting back and enjoying a symphony 22:57:26 I wonder what you use those 4 GB for ;-) 22:57:38 Rugxulo, hm? 22:57:50 well. why 2 when I can use 4? 22:58:11 eats more battery power 22:58:33 Rugxulo, not much. Was like a 5 minute difference 22:59:07 Rugxulo, and I usually need no more than 2 hours in one run 22:59:30 * Rugxulo wishes all laptops lasted 12 hours ... 23:00:04 same 23:00:34 P.S. speaking of music for DOS, http://www.oldskool.org/pc/MONOTONE 23:00:35 ;-) 23:01:02 Rugxulo, what is a tracker exactly? 23:01:23 also on my laptop if I turn off the speakers, the pcspeaker doesn't beep 23:01:24 anmaster: type of music program that originated on the amiga 23:01:31 * AnMaster guess it is emulated in the BIOS or such 23:01:49 anmaster: the amiga had 4 sample playing channels so its music software was based around that 23:02:09 madbrain, couldn't play any wave tone? 23:02:12 just samples? 23:02:13 tracker is usually used to describe .MOD editors, etc. 23:02:24 wave and samples are the same thing 23:02:26 Rugxulo, hah. haven't seen a *.mod in ages 23:02:40 well, this isn't .MOD either, it's a custom format ;-) 23:02:41 madbrain, samples to me means samples like in a soundfont 23:02:44 for midi 23:02:55 About half of the music I listen to is *.{mod,s3m,it,xm} 23:03:09 Deewiant, seen all of those except it 23:03:14 what is the difference between them 23:03:16 .it = Impulse Tracker 23:03:18 Well, for the past two years or so it's been about all of the music I listen to 23:03:44 AnMaster: Different trackers' formats. 23:04:01 .mod is oldest (with a few extensions), .s3m is from Scream Tracker 3 (circa 1994), .xm is from Fast Tracker (mid 90s), .it is from Impulse Tracker (late '90s) 23:04:03 mhm 23:04:05 ProTracker, Scream Tracker 3, Impulse Tracker and FastTracker 2. 23:04:05 anmaster: basically each one is a sucessive improvement over the previous one (mod->s3m->xm->it) 23:04:23 I see 23:04:28 except Impulse Tracker is specifically meant as a better Scream Tracker 23:04:33 same exact interface 23:04:35 whatever is wrong with *.ogg and *.flac these days :P 23:05:05 AnMaster, I think your problem is that you don't realize that the world existed before Core 2, 4 GB RAM, 64-bit, etc. ;-) 23:05:10 you can't rip the samples out of them or snoop how the dude composed music :D 23:05:20 Rugxulo, I certainly do. But I grew up with mac 23:05:28 I can go on being nostalgic about old mac games 23:05:30 if you want 23:05:48 Wait, old Macs had games? ;-) 23:05:48 except, I uh don't see the point. I'm nostalgic like twice a year 23:05:53 but you keep saying, "What's the point?" as if it was always so cut and dry 23:05:53 and find my old ibook 23:05:56 with dead mattery 23:06:17 Rugxulo, yes. Because these sound awful compared even to macs from the same year 23:06:25 I'm nostalgic at least once per day 23:06:32 Deewiant, age? 23:06:33 beauty is in the eye of the beholder 23:06:39 AnMaster: 21. 23:07:10 Rugxulo, okay I do get nostalgic over Myst. Especially with the sound of the CD drive of a performa 5600 in the background (or was it 5200? I forgot...) 23:07:19 a twinkee is inferior to a real cake but still a bit tasty nevertheless 23:07:36 `google define:twinkee 23:07:39 hm? 23:07:43 `define twinkee 23:07:43 twinkie* 23:07:47 `define twinke 23:07:51 `echo test 23:07:54 No output. 23:07:57 uh 23:07:58 what 23:08:00 * A Twinkie is a "Golden Sponge Cake with Creamy Filling" popular in the United States and elsewhere in North America. ... \ [14]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkee \ 23:08:00 `ls 23:08:04 okay 23:08:04 there you go 23:08:05 test 23:08:06 No output. 23:08:07 Gregor, I think it is slow 23:08:13 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.658 23:08:38 `ls bin 23:08:46 ... 23:08:49 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 23:08:52 very slow indeed 23:11:07 Rugxulo, also I could get faux nostalgic about old unix 23:11:23 Rugxulo, oh ever played Myst? 23:11:43 * AnMaster wonders if you can emulate a pre-OS X PPC mac on linux easily 23:11:52 an eary ppc would do 23:12:41 yes I have Myst on both PC and Atari JagCD 23:12:52 came close to beating it in 2005 but never did finish (haven't played it much since) 23:13:15 it's not faux nostalgia, DOS lives (barely), just some of us find it interesting 23:13:20 * Gregor kills a runaway process on codu. 23:13:21 `ls 23:13:22 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.914 23:13:24 Rugxulo, finished it 23:13:24 Heh :P 23:13:29 without walkthroughs 23:13:32 and on mac 23:13:43 I got stuck at that maze underground, couldn't figure out what to do 23:13:51 not afraid of cheating, just too lazy to bother I guess 23:14:09 Rugxulo, oh in the sound world? 23:14:10 I hear some of the sequels are good, though, but never tried 'em 23:14:20 no, in the tunnel car thingy 23:14:30 Rugxulo, with faux nostalgia I meant "never used those, so can't be nostalgic about them, but still is" 23:14:37 it's kinda an underwhelming game in some ways (very isolating) 23:14:41 Rugxulo, that was in the soundworld 23:14:46 sound world* 23:14:50 I probably missed something obvious 23:14:57 I should probably go ahead and cheat and finish it one of these days 23:14:58 Rugxulo, something rather non-obvious 23:15:12 Rugxulo, you got sounds indicating direction you should go 23:15:14 basically 23:15:28 PPC? PearPC? (dunno really) 23:15:46 Rugxulo, isn't it OS X only? 23:15:49 I still need to finish Gabriel Knight 1 one of these days 23:15:52 no idea 23:16:01 but QEMU supports other arches, doesn't it?? 23:16:46 argh indeed 23:16:55 Ruĝulo? 23:16:59 Rugxulo, yeah but not Mac as such 23:17:13 wrong hardware emulated iirc 23:17:14 Warrigal: yes? 23:17:21 AnMaster, ever tried Ardi's Executor? 23:17:27 (but that was mostly System 6, I think) 23:17:27 Just wondering if that's also your name. 23:17:29 Rugxulo, never heard of it 23:17:35 my nickname, yes 23:17:51 http://github.com/ctm/executor 23:18:05 ran on DOS at one point (circa 1996) using DJGPP 23:18:16 Rugxulo, need to run PPC binaries 23:18:17 now it's been ported to Linux 23:18:20 Rugxulo, for those old games 23:18:32 ah, well this is 68000 (only I think??) 23:18:38 yeah 23:18:40 that's the issue 23:18:46 still I have that old ibook 23:18:52 whenever I get nostalgic 23:19:18 bah, no PPC, sorry 23:19:28 easy to forget all their billions of transitions 23:19:43 apple? yeah 23:20:06 oh and PearPC seems dead 23:20:10 last news item in 2005 23:21:14 I'm sure someone has done it, just dunno who 23:21:41 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 23:29:16 noticeably different keyboard on this laptop than P4 (harder to play Llamatron, barely) 23:30:04 Llamatron :-D 23:30:07 long story short, I'm 30 (not that old), but I do remember DOS + Win 3.1 23:30:09 That game was awesome 23:30:27 and I still use old computers, hence I need a "lite" OS more than "lightweight Linux" (128 MB??? o_O) 23:30:36 s/old/ancient/ 23:31:01 works well in DOSBox :-) 23:31:06 QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC. 23:33:23 Deewiant: http://www.llamasoft.co.uk 23:33:42 Yeah, I know of the new ones 23:34:00 no, I mean old Llamasoft is freely available there 23:34:56 Ah, so it is. 23:34:58 There was that one iPhone-runs-System 7-with-QEMU newspost -- http://mobile.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=21045 though the actual site seems less alive -- that might've been with the m68k emulator, who knows -- qemu site hardware target list has "G3 Beige PowerMac (PowerPC processor)". 23:35:45 Llamatron? 23:35:50 what the hell is that 23:35:56 game 23:36:01 weird clone of Robotron 23:36:09 QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC. <-- which doesn't do pre-OS X 23:36:18 weird clone of Robotron <-- never heard of that 23:36:31 Robotron is from like 1980 or so 23:36:52 sorry, 1982 23:36:53 http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9347 23:36:59 it's on Midway Arcade Treasures 1 23:38:06 AnMaster: Well, there's SheepShaver; that one does pre-OS X only ("7.5.2 thru 9.0.4"), don't know how well. 23:38:16 fizzie, could work 23:38:58 what's the point?? ;-)) 23:39:20 Rugxulo, yeah. good point. Since I have that old ibook when I want this 23:39:39 Rugxulo, still the OS is at least better than DOS 23:39:49 so it is less pointless 23:39:58 if you say so ;-) 23:40:02 DOS has more apps :-P 23:40:12 Rugxulo, mac apps were better. 23:40:27 nope ;-) 23:40:31 and charm 23:41:20 SheepShaver's supposed to run pretty well on actual PowerPC systems, if you want just virtualizationary stuff; I gather the PowerPC core emulation isn't all that hot, though certainly with modern processors it might not be such a big issue. 23:41:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llamatron <-- ugh arcade style 23:41:58 * AnMaster always preferred games where you could win. Not more and more levels all the time 23:43:14 fizzie, I want sound and ability to run OS 8 or OS 9 to run some old games. Mostly turn based. Though one "real" time 23:43:27 arcade style is unavoidable when cloning an arcade game ;-) 23:43:39 Rugxulo, which is why you shouldn't 23:43:42 what, you don't like trying to beat your high score?? 23:43:47 It did have an ending, didn't it? 23:43:50 I remember being envious of a Mac-using friend, because he had that funky paper airplane game. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_PRO) 23:43:52 Rugxulo, I prefer RPGs 23:43:54 with lots of text 23:43:55 dunno, never beat it ;-) 23:44:10 what about Nanosaur :D 23:44:19 coppro, oh I think my mac had that 23:44:23 I sucked at it 23:45:20 I miss those types of games. 23:45:23 (Well, Glider 4 or something, but I don't think that has a Wikipedia article.) 23:45:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:45:58 fizzie, screenshot? 23:46:33 AnMaster: http://www.lauppert.ws/screen1/mac/glider.png 23:46:39 The games are nowadays free, it seems. 23:46:57 fizzie, what was the objective? 23:47:31 Hey, I remember playing something like that. 23:47:52 To fly the paper airplane through the house, avoiding all obstacles. (IIRC, the only controls you had were "left" and "right" to toggle the direction; heat vents made the airplane go up, in other places it just glided slowly downwards.) 23:48:13 Possibly a ripoff of some kind, since I think it was on a PC. It /was/ a paper aeroplane. 23:48:17 Those things on the floor in that screenshot are heat vents, I think. 23:48:23 Deewiant: There's a Windows port of Glider 4.0. 23:48:30 Deewiant: http://homepage.mac.com/calhoun/Downloads.html 23:48:35 If you feel like checking. 23:48:51 (The "PRO" version probably has colors and everything.) 23:48:55 I wonder what the time stamp on that thing is. 23:49:13 The Wikipedia article doesn't even mention a Windows version. 23:49:37 Deewiant: Right, because the Wikipedia article is for the PRO version. 23:49:43 Bah. 23:51:52 Oh, and the eponymous glider gets electrocuted if you fly it directly in front of a electricity wall socket thing. That's very realistic; I get shocked every time I walk past a wall outlet too. 23:51:58 why is a screenshot so much worse than a picture of a car when it comes to license? 23:52:02 on wikipedia I mean 23:53:31 dunno, useless pedantry 23:53:42 fizzie, I hope not ;-) 23:54:35 fizzie: lousy grounding i bet 2009-11-02: 00:04:52 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm <-- look at the google ads O_o 00:05:28 what about it? 00:06:06 "Biological Data Analysis" ... "Microbial Insights" ... "$89 Home DNA Test" 00:06:11 is that what you saw too? (doubt it) 00:06:57 no, but I saw similar ones 00:07:13 the best one I got was "miRNA array analysis" 00:07:21 seems a bit esoteric to be on google ads 00:07:33 *microarray 00:08:34 esoteric? Google? nah ;-) 00:11:25 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 00:14:49 * coppro doesn't want to do homework :( 00:21:06 for what? 00:22:37 Biology 00:22:45 and English 00:22:56 which together account for 100% of my school subjects :/ 00:22:57 break it up into bite-sized pieces, perhaps? 00:23:04 it's not hard 00:23:05 just tedious 00:23:19 well that's a given ;-) 00:23:22 and creative, too 00:23:26 I don't like creative 00:24:27 but esoteric languages are creative 00:24:55 but in a different way 00:25:04 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:25:05 I'm kind of glad I'm taking only math classes. 00:25:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:25:14 This is the school version of creative - e.g. "stuff that isn't what you normally do" 00:25:25 Warrigal: I can't wait until Uni :) 00:25:35 I wanted to take five-ish math classes next semester, but the head of the math department came and told me I shouldn't do that. 00:25:43 biology isn't creative unless you engineer new lifeforms 00:26:02 Warrigal, you'd probably burn out with 5+ 00:26:33 i'm _still_ waiting for oklopol's great burnout this year 00:26:59 I burned out this semester with a single non-math class. :-P 00:28:09 Well, actually a double non-math class. 00:28:39 I spend half my day working at a biotech firm, it's awesome :) 00:30:25 okay, done the noncreative part of part 1 00:30:34 coppro: so what are you currenly doing for education? 00:30:42 High school 00:30:47 last year 00:31:01 Are you United States? 00:31:05 No 00:31:07 Canada 00:31:22 he said "uni", kinda a giveaway ;-) 00:31:39 Hmm. How does the education system go there? 00:31:45 12 years 00:31:55 huh, thought it was 13 00:31:56 well, and kindergarten, but that doesn't count 00:32:25 No province has had 13 for several years 00:32:34 good ;-) 00:32:48 Well, except Quebec has the weird CEGEP thing 00:33:02 * Rugxulo shakes fist 00:33:08 Quebec has 11 years + 2 years CEGEP 00:33:26 What part of that is high school? 00:33:35 2 years I think 00:33:39 It's 3 here 00:34:07 oh no, Quebec just has secondary schools, which are 5 years 00:34:21 no distinction between junior high/middle school and high school 00:34:51 I was kind of an expecting an answer along the lines of "one year of kindergarten, eight years of primary school, four years of secondary school (high school), then college/university". 00:35:00 ok, fine 00:35:18 one year kindergarten, 6 years elementary, 3 years junior high, 3 years high school in Alberta 00:35:23 two years preschool optional 00:35:29 (before kindergarten) 00:37:03 So pretty much like in the US but with one year of high school removed and added to elementary. 00:37:18 Think so, not 100% sure 00:37:27 even in the U.S. in some places, 9th is in middle 00:37:29 (given that I don't know your system) 00:37:51 All I know is that I hope I get accepted to UW 00:37:59 (Waterloo) 00:38:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:39:15 Hmm, I guess the two systems are actually consistent, then. 00:39:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:40:26 UW? Is that in ontario? 00:41:05 Yeah 00:41:17 Best math school in the country, and high up there worldwide 00:42:59 Only problem is, my transcript doesn't look as good as it should because of stupid options I was forced to take :( 00:43:24 transcripts are dishonest anyways (well, mine is) 00:44:03 I seem to often get the feeling that the school I'm at... kinda sucks. 00:44:15 What school? 00:44:21 Grand Valley State University. 00:44:27 Never heard of it :/ 00:44:39 but then again, I haven't heard of most US schools except the big ones 00:44:56 It is kind of big. 00:45:01 I've never heard of it either, doesn't mean it's bad 00:45:17 The enrollment is 23,000. 00:45:20 although that feeling that one's school sucks is fairly common ;-) 00:45:30 Indeed. 00:46:36 What I used to think is that the Internet could teach me in minutes what school teaches in weeks. 00:47:43 * coppro knows this isn't tru 00:47:45 *true 00:47:55 Now it seems that while that's more or less true for certain types of declarative knowledge, for procedural knowledge, it's a different story. 00:48:08 Yeah 00:48:35 and yet school isn't exactly a "bargain", either 00:48:46 nope :( 00:48:54 Still, though, I feel like my greatest advances in procedural knowledge have come about online. 00:49:37 The problem is that the internet, while it has most of the knowledge you may deign to acquire, it generally sucks at explaining it 00:49:42 I've had two "what the hell am I doing" moments online, and none in school. 00:49:52 and you're left to figure out which order to learn things on your own 00:50:07 -!- dbc has joined. 00:50:13 As in "hmm, well, I suppose that if you kind of visualize it like this, you can kind of see that--what the hell am I doing? There's a formula for this"! 00:50:23 :D 00:51:05 dunno.. i think there isn't too much good music theory on the net 00:51:13 One was when I was trying to figure out a parameter that would make two functions tangent. I took the arctangent of the derivative. 00:51:17 madbrain: I said "most", not all 00:51:19 The #1 issue with school that helps give that feeling is a lot of knowledge that should be procedural (e.g. math) is treated like it isn't. 00:51:30 especially at low levels 00:51:36 The other was when solving the Diophantine equation x^2 - y^2 = 1817; I didn't realize that the left side could be factored. 00:51:43 school = rote memorization and busywork, that's all 00:52:11 Rugxulo: see, that's the problem. When it /isn't/ that, it's exciting to learn 00:52:21 music theory = only good in as much as you are willing to discard it 00:52:43 rux: ah, but many jobs are rote memorization and busy work 00:52:55 e.g. have you ever seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula? 00:53:10 I've seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula. 00:53:25 I was perplexed by the fact that the other students called the derivation "freaky". 00:53:31 like, I love being creative and all, but now I have to get someone to pay for it and it sounds hard 00:53:40 Warrigal: lol 00:53:46 At least they got shown how it works 00:53:49 rux: dunno what to think about music theory... 00:53:54 It's freaky that when you do this, you get the same answer as when people did it hundreds of years ago? What the *hell* did you expect? 00:54:01 It's easier to remember things you understand 00:54:06 Charlie Parker: "Learn as much as you can, then forget all that s**t" 00:54:15 this is THE problem with math education in North America 00:54:44 yes, but they don't have time to let you understand, only time to make you memorize stuff and do lots of busywork 00:54:51 Wrong 00:54:57 gotta cram in so much curriculum 00:55:06 They could teach things far quicker if they showed you how to understand 00:55:07 must give so many tests, etc. 00:55:14 They have plenty of time. 00:55:18 well, then they suck too bad ;-) 00:55:21 A full 12 years. 00:55:26 they waste it 00:55:31 yes 00:55:39 It's a systemic problem 00:55:40 you think Windows 7 really needs 16 GB of HD space?? nope, but they waste it 00:55:42 well, its not the smart mathematicians who teach¸ 00:55:43 same thing ;-)) 00:55:53 I don't see why it's unreasonable to get a basic understanding of mathematics in that time. 00:56:05 Another great example is fractions 00:56:06 the ones who teach are the ones who know how to deal with kids 00:56:27 Of course, people appear to think that mathematics is merely calculation. So... 00:56:32 madbrain: ... Ah, no. 00:56:45 no, the ones who teach are whoever they can get 00:56:56 rux: ah, yeah 00:56:57 right 00:56:58 and you don't need lots of experience either 00:57:06 pikhq: A symptom of the flawed education 00:57:08 The ones who teach are the ones who know how not to send people to the guillotine. 00:57:14 coppro: Absolutely. 00:57:14 my 4th grade teacher's parents were younger than mine (at the time!) 00:57:52 hilariously ironic 00:57:57 to me at least 00:58:14 (disclosure: my own mother is a math teacher) 00:58:25 (not that I ever learned jack from her) 00:58:38 * Rugxulo is not a math whiz 00:59:10 Rugxulo: Yet, you program. 00:59:17 dunno, I learned some math (mostly having to do with programming!)... I never figured out how to do integrals though 00:59:21 BTW, I think the guillotine was outlawed in 1982 or so in France, so... ;-) 00:59:26 Which... *is mathematics*. 00:59:29 I wonder why I remembered the number 1817... 00:59:42 18, 17, 16, 15 ... 01:00:20 still better than the gas chamber 01:00:42 If I had to choose a method of execution for myself, I'm sure I would choose nitrogen asphyxiation. 01:00:46 1812 was the year of the War of 1812! 01:00:57 I can't imagine how any method of execution could be more humane. 01:01:09 natural causes? ;-) 01:01:47 dying in your sleep? 01:01:57 I guess execution by natural causes is a pretty humane way to do it. :-) 01:02:24 The thing about nitrogen asphyxiation is it works like this: 01:02:30 You put on a mask. You get dizzy. You die. 01:02:42 * pikhq votes execution by bomb -- sitting right next to the one who gave out the death sentence. 01:03:29 Execution by suicide-brought-on-by-remorse-brought-on-by-murder. 01:04:57 death by chocolate ;-) 01:07:21 (what, never heard of that dish?) 01:07:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_Chocolate 01:11:57 -!- ehird has joined. 01:12:04 "Finally, every time Psystar turns on any of the Psystar computers running Mac OS X, which it does before shipping each computer, Psystar necessarily makes a separate modified copy of Mac OS X in Random Access Memory, or RAM. This is the third unlawful copy." —Apple 01:12:08 Apparently I'm a pirate. 01:13:07 uh ... yeah sure 01:13:17 sorry, but counting like that is a little bit of a stretch 01:13:36 Clearly I was quoting it and calling myself a pirate because I thought it was sane and reasonable. 01:13:40 * Rugxulo hears that latest Ubuntu runs on Intel Macs 01:13:46 I wasn't mocking it or anything, nosiree, thanks for the apology. 01:13:53 linux has run on intel macs since about 3 seconds after they came out 01:13:55 I'm just agreeing, it's a bit isnane 01:13:59 *more like a few monthhts 01:13:59 really? 01:14:01 *months 01:14:02 yes. 01:14:04 so has windows 01:14:11 Windows doesn't count 01:14:11 well, ok, windows took a bit longer i think 01:14:12 but whatever 01:14:18 Rugxulo: without boot camp. 01:14:24 boot camp just partitions and gives you a driver CD 01:14:42 there was an EFI upgrade (like BIOS) that let you boot BIOS things from it, you see 01:14:44 when boot camp came out 01:14:46 but before that 01:14:50 people just hacked up their own shit 01:14:52 ah 01:14:53 so you could run windows on it 01:15:00 linux happened earlier because there is a linux bootloader for efi 01:15:01 elilo 01:15:06 nobody uses it now though 01:15:39 latest Ubuntu has issues with Intel gfx, I hear 01:16:08 (on a different note) 01:16:22 they're changing everything around. after this intel graphics should be good 01:16:23 (in X11) 01:16:27 well, Xorg 01:16:37 ubuntu by itself does very little apart from ship unstable things that barely work 01:16:50 based upon Debian "testing", from what I've read 01:17:08 yes, sid. 01:17:13 anyway, you've been able to install rEFIt (EFI bootloader selector thingy, just point-and-click in OS X to install), pop in an ubuntu CD in an intel mac and install it for years now 01:17:28 I never hear anybody doing that, though 01:17:43 Tons of people do it. I've done it several times and used Ubuntu for a few weeks recently. 01:17:58 Case in point: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328 01:18:05 A whole forum of Mac Ubuntu users. 01:18:10 Active. 01:18:30 PPC too?? 01:19:31 "Please join the irc release party in ...", heh 01:19:45 PPC is a "community-supported port" 01:19:49 Translation: "barely works" 01:21:05 I won't be using this machine "sometime soon" anyway; hopefully I'll forget all the crap I needed to get it working. 01:21:06 translation: "soon to be obsoleted, even by us!" 01:21:26 It's been community-supported (== we won't support it) since 2006, iirc. 01:21:40 The population of Mac users that use Ubuntu is small enough; PPC Ubuntu? 01:21:49 I hate that about Macs, they brag how great they are then drop them like stones once they are *barely* obsolete 01:22:05 PPC was obsolete before 2005 01:22:10 i hate everything 01:22:24 G5 was fast, sure... but they still sucked. Especially the heat output. 01:22:32 P4 anyone? ;-) 01:22:36 I imagine Apple were trying to jump the PPC ship since before 2004. 01:22:43 Rugxulo: in fact, the first Intel machines sent to developers— 01:22:47 were pentium 4 Mac Pros 01:22:56 but Apple never sold anything before Core 1, right? 01:23:03 nopee 01:23:05 *nope 01:23:09 (even though they'd been testing since 2000) 01:23:19 i'm going to go ahead and guess that negotiating with intel is hard 01:23:39 Intel made a specific variant of the cpu just for Apple 01:23:50 then again, Apple is 100% Intel-only, so I'm not too surprised 01:23:55 Did they? 01:23:59 oh 01:24:00 for hte macbook air 01:24:01 *the 01:24:06 It uses a stock CPU nowadays 01:24:19 anyway, dropping ppc support from snow leopard saved ~10 GiB and means they can do a bunch of intel optimisations, which is cool. ppc users aree used to everyything being slow and crufty anyway :D 01:24:24 *are *everything *fucking keyboard 01:24:45 just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh 01:25:53 I'm pretty sure you must be in favour of abolishing capitalism in favour of massexcessism, where the more time you waste and neglect things most people actually use, the more money you get. 01:26:14 And PPCs don't run perfectly, btw. 01:26:26 nothing does, but it doesn't mean it's useless 01:27:21 I'd try to explain proper allocation of resources and practicality and all those sane things but I think I've tried that too many times already. 01:29:16 Rugxulo: presumably you'll complain that my static-only linux distro sucks because i'll compile it for i686 only, when all the software could work on i386... 01:30:07 Linux these days won't run well (if at all) on less than a 686 anyways 01:30:49 and honestly, most people don't have older than a 686 anyways 01:30:55 (Fedora is 586+ since 11) 01:31:01 Ha, and most people don't have older than an Intel Mac... 01:31:10 my Dad does 01:31:14 Anyone who buys a Mac expecting a loooooong product life on the latest stuff is deluding themselves anyway. 01:31:19 Rugxulo: yeah, and my $person owns a <686 too 01:31:29 you do realise that people use linux on embedded devices, btw? 01:31:32 I still have an original P1 01:31:35 those are ... rather less powerful than a 686. 01:31:50 I'm not saying they don't exist, but especially since nobody seems to care, then it's heavily moot 01:32:14 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:32:20 [01:24] Rugxulo: just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh 01:32:25 correct 01:32:30 pretty sure pentium 1s ran pretty "perfectly" if you stayed minimal 01:32:35 you're being pretty contradictory here 01:32:37 in Linux?? 01:32:42 not from my experience 01:32:48 that's linux's fault 01:32:51 I can do more in DOS than Linux 01:32:53 the CPU ran perfectly, which is the issue at hand 01:32:55 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 01:32:56 therefore, linux should support it 01:33:03 by your argument 01:33:04 Linux == elitism 01:33:11 ... 01:33:18 that's the single-handed dumbest thing you've ever said 01:33:26 *typed 01:34:10 you only get laughed away trying to do things like that 01:34:32 they won't help 01:35:23 one, probably because you were saying dumb shit and not listening to them; two, i've never had that experience, ever; three, you do realise as a rebuttal to my statement that according to you, the pentium 1 should be supported by linux, this is a complete non-sequitur? 01:35:50 Pentium 1 is (barely) supported 01:35:54 and finally, four, if ubuntu (that my mother uses!) is elitist, you're crazy 01:36:03 most 586s don't support over a certain amount of RAM (e.g. 64 MB) 01:36:44 and in reality, much less is installed, and Linux doesn't work very well with low amounts 01:36:54 (unless you like mad swapping) 01:37:21 i don't think you've ever tried to use linux on a low-end machine. it can handle low RAM just fine. 01:37:31 unless you were trying to install ubuntu with gnome or something. 01:38:04 it can't handle it well, that's for sure 01:38:16 at least not without recompiling everything from scratch, rolling your own, etc. 01:38:40 I'm not talking about the very minimal "runs but does nothing" install either 01:39:58 seriously, debian runs on everything. 01:40:05 debian+busybox runs on everything and a machine. 01:40:48 no, Contiki runs on everything :-) 01:41:13 apart from x86-64 01:41:38 x86-64 is a mode, not a chip 01:41:49 incorrect 01:41:53 amd64 is an architecture in itself 01:41:55 so it still runs in legacy 32-bit mode 01:42:01 it is not the same 01:42:07 rtfs (spec) 01:42:17 are there any AMD64 chips that won't run 32-bit or 16-bit? no, so it's moot 01:42:30 you're not listening to what i'm saying. 01:42:39 because I can't hear you, this is text :-P 01:42:54 ooh, please point out we're typing into keyboards again, it's hilarious 01:43:35 thiis froom thee guuy whoo caan't stoop tallking aboout hiis keeyboard 01:43:47 because it sucks and i need to buy a better one 01:43:53 okay, no seriously, I know Debian can run on low end, but it won't be fun, that's for sure 01:44:04 the days are long gone where you can comfortably run Linux in less than 128 MB of RAM 01:44:07 gimme that p1 and i'll get linux on it 01:44:22 to do what exactly? 32 MB just isn't enough to do anything 01:44:32 even DSL (or TinyCore) needs 32 MB minimum 01:44:39 you are wroooooong 01:44:43 so that rules out ever compiling anything 01:44:51 um, since when 01:44:59 unless you go to console only, and even then modern GCC is a hog 01:45:00 just because you can't run gcc 4... 01:45:08 seriously, you have no idea about this 01:45:18 even GCC 3.4.6 would probably be slow (as 3.4.4 with DJGPP isn't really fast) 01:45:42 the kernel for instance compiles with gcc 2. 01:46:07 it used to *only* compile with GCC 2, but that changed when people finally got tired of that annoyance (although GCC 2 is lightning fast in comparison) 01:46:23 Heck, I'm going to go out and get a Linux system that should run in 32MB of RAM. 01:46:47 BasicLinux can run in very low amounts, but it's useless 01:47:09 pikhq: as in a computer? 01:47:24 http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/082/8234/8234f3.png 01:47:25 ehird: I don't have said computer any more, sadly. 01:47:26 basiclinux is useless? 01:47:37 pikhq: ah, you mean a distro or whatever 01:47:40 Yeah. 01:47:45 Trivial to do, really. 01:48:01 it seems Rugxulo's definition of useless is runs smoothly on a p1 01:48:07 which is an amusingly circular definition. 01:49:03 "runs" what, exactly? 'cause kernel + Busybox isn't much functionality, IMHO 01:49:53 not like basiclinux runs X11 or anything 01:49:54 noooooooooope 01:49:59 That + troff is a nice typesetting system. 01:50:10 troff is not a nice typesetting system pikhq. 01:50:11 Well, nice except that it's outclassed by TeX. :P 01:50:25 ehird: I'm mostly referring to the original "official" use of UNIX, there. 01:50:33 it's still unreadable 01:50:55 troff would be 10x better it you could do \{foo} to mean \n.foo\n 01:51:13 Considering it's competition was not very far removed from the original printing presses, though... 01:52:35 * ehird rewrites a manpage with \{...} out of curiosity 01:52:54 \textsc{unix} 01:54:01 Eh, too lazy! 02:03:21 BTW, dumb question, but why a.out? 02:03:29 Because ELF is overkill. 02:03:38 I think he means why the filename 02:03:43 Oh, that. 02:03:44 no, I meant for your distro 02:03:47 Oh, okay. 02:04:00 Because ELF was invented to make dynamic linking suck less (and, well, for some debugging stuff). 02:04:06 Although really COFF did that too, ELF was just going furtherr. 02:04:07 *further 02:04:13 As a.out is simpler and I don't do dynamic linking... 02:04:18 DJGPP still uses COFF (as does NT, more or less) 02:04:39 NT uses something closely related to COFF. 02:04:44 Still, COFF is even more obscure than a.out for Linux, and has the same disadvantages as ELF. 02:04:51 their own weird variant, oddly different 02:05:00 Windows uses PE, which is a derivative of COFF. 02:05:13 What did they use in 9x, I wonder? 02:05:22 "Microsoft migrated to the PE format with the introduction of the Windows NT 3.1 operating system. All later versions of Windows, including Windows 95/98/ME, support the file structure." 02:05:25 in 3 then 02:05:28 still PE in Win9x 02:05:42 I suppose they mean Win32s 02:05:46 The NE, abbreviation for New Executable, is a 16-bit[1] executable file format that was introduced in Windows 3.x [2], and was also used at a later[dubious – discuss] time in OS/2 and 16-bit Windows. While it was "new" at the time of invention, it is now rare and obsolete, though its usage can still be found by a few select programs.[3] It is backwards compatible with the older DOS MZ format.[1] 02:05:53 I don't remember ever seeing PE in Win3x, only NE 02:06:07 Someone add NE support to Linux! 02:06:12 PE has an NE/MZ header. 02:06:22 Em nemz nemz nemz nemz 02:06:27 ehird: With the new ability to have arbitrary executable formats, not hard at all. 02:06:28 Executable nomming. 02:06:35 unz unz unz unz unz unz 02:06:40 Just make a userspace NE loader, and register it with the kernel. 02:07:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocatable_Object_Module_Format 02:07:01 .obj files! 02:07:09 The same trick can be done to add PE support to Linux. (with Win32 support happening all magic-like) 02:07:30 -!- Rugxulo` has joined. 02:07:40 Linux+PE+Wine = Oh god kill me now 02:08:11 ehird: It consists just of making the kernel call out to Wine when it sees a PE header. 02:08:30 Just a matter of making an appropriately formatted file in /proc, IIRC. 02:08:35 bah, too many file formats 02:08:38 x( 02:08:54 Not exactly a *great* idea, but nowhere near as crazy as you'd think. 02:09:11 WINE is way more overkill than DOSEMU 02:09:28 WINE does a lot more than DOSEMU. 02:09:32 yes 02:09:42 It implements a complex ABI, rather than just being a vm86 handler. 02:09:58 (and/or a simple 8086 emulator) 02:10:00 DOSEMU on x86-64 emulates all 16-bit instructions 02:10:05 Someone gimme some cash to buy a Topre board :( 02:10:29 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:10:38 -!- Rugxulo` has changed nick to Rugxulo. 02:11:15 Money! To me! In return gratitude. It's an unbeatable deal. 02:11:34 * Rugxulo is reminded of Bedazzled 02:11:51 Feed my infinite need to buy a $250 keyboard ;_; 02:12:12 can it run Linux? ^_^ 02:12:25 Nope, but it does have a bunch of switches on the back to remap stuff. 02:12:29 DIP switches! 02:12:40 well, the controller might be able to run uclinux 02:12:41 who knows 02:13:15 It doesn't look very fancy at all, really... http://static.benippon.net/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/E/L/ELEC-PD-KB400WN.jpg 02:13:22 I'm pretty sure Linux's support for arbitrary executable formats could be used to implement some compatibility layers (akin to, say, FreeBSD's Linux support) 02:13:35 is freebsd's linux support still good these days? 02:13:51 should be, last I heard 8.0 would have 2.6 support 02:14:11 someone run gnome on top of it :-D 02:14:12 ehird: They're upgrading it from 2.4.2 to 2.6 support, syscall-wise. 02:14:16 And X11! 02:14:24 But yeah, it seems to be rather good. 02:15:14 maybe i should just get a filco with cherry switches to tide me over, they're more like $100 :-P 02:15:27 or an uber-cheap TVS Gold or Scorpius M10 for like $50 02:15:36 those only haves blues though. 02:17:04 should probably switch to colemamk sometime. 02:17:24 *colemak 02:19:44 please don't 02:20:26 lament: why not 02:20:42 because colemak is a halfway measure between qwerty and dvorak 02:21:00 yeah, i thought that too and deewiant said "no it isn't bitch" and i researched it 02:21:02 rather hard to come up with a legitimate use case for that 02:21:08 colemak actually has better statistical properties than dvorak. 02:21:20 the numbers don't lie 02:21:26 the numbers of what? 02:21:30 what 02:21:39 What should I name my HackBot-alike wiki? 02:21:42 what statistical properties? 02:21:44 for instance finger travel, how much you stray from the home row 02:21:48 hand distribution 02:21:48 etc 02:21:55 colemak is simply better than dvorak 02:22:00 Gregor: Eh? 02:22:04 ehird: lies. 02:22:12 lament: whatever you say. 02:22:21 unsubstantiated nonsense 02:22:25 HockBat, HackBotter, HackBot++ 02:22:28 that's nice, troll 02:22:38 ehird: I'm thinking of making a wiki where every node is like a command in HackEgo. 02:22:53 Gregor: that's not really a "wiki" is it 02:23:11 How is it not? Anybody can edit any page, the pages just happen to be scripts. 02:23:27 So, everything that lets people change it on the internet is now a wiki? 02:23:37 Collaborative paint? more like WIKI PAINT 02:23:57 Except this would actually be extremely similar to a wiki, in that there are pages which are editable. 02:24:03 but the biggest problem with colemak is that it's used exclusively by douchebag 02:24:14 s 02:24:16 lament: Deewiant loves you too 02:24:18 i've only met one person who used colemak, and he was a douchebag 02:24:25 n=1 02:24:27 great sample size 02:24:37 well it's not a very popular layout 02:24:42 lament: do you use dvorak? 02:24:44 yes 02:24:51 funny, you're a douchebag too 02:25:05 i will now proceed to discard all the rest of my sample of dvorak users to be on a level playing field 02:25:10 http://www.kimgrahamstudios.com/images/troll-15.jpg 02:25:12 :( 02:25:21 it's fun having an op that's a troll! 02:25:23 lament: aw sorry :( 02:25:25 i'm not a douchebag. I'm not even a bag! 02:25:36 you're not even a tree i don't know what Rugxulo is talkingn about 02:25:36 not a meatbag? ;-) 02:25:40 *talking 02:26:35 that lady is weird 02:26:38 heh 02:27:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:28:54 anyway 02:28:54 25-Dec-2006: David Piepgrass: Why QWERTY, And What's Better? (PDF). 02:28:54 “All things considered, I believe Colemak is better than Dvorak and the best alternative to QWERTY.” 02:28:54 David Piepgrass is the designer of the Asset keyboard layout. 02:28:55 According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models. 02:28:55 According to Andrei Stanescu: "Colemak is quite close to Dvorak. It scores a little bit better in some areas and a bit worse in other areas, and its overall score is usually 2-5% better than that of Dvorak, but it is worse for some texts. So it's slightly better than Dvorak, especially if you take into consideration its other advantages (better position for Backspace and similarity to Qwerty)." 02:29:00 —http://colemak.com/Media 02:29:02 yes, their media page is biased but that doesn't change the facts. also, http://colemak.com/Ergonomic 02:29:04 also see http://colemak.com/Compare to get some statistics for various texts 02:29:06 i could go on but i'm lazy 02:30:36 anyway I type fast enough on QWERTY, so it's mainly hand strain and comfort that makes me want to switch. 02:30:47 (i think slower than i can type, so) 02:31:24 BTW, ehird, what main apps will your distro intend to run? 02:32:29 window manager http://dwm.suckless.org/, terminal emulator (either urxvt or st (http://st.suckless.org/) or something), command-line toolset, vim, irc client ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii), browser prolly surf http://surf.suckless.org/... i swear it isn't all suckless software, just the most-used stuff :-P 02:32:40 (ignoring infrastructure) 02:32:59 (in which case my init, my package manager, xorg, not sure what shell yet (maybe pdksh)) 02:33:00 TinyC? 02:33:14 Rugxulo: alas tcc can't really compile much worthwhile. besides, it's ELF only 02:33:26 gcc for kernel+libc+stuff, 02:33:27 but it can run .c as if scripts 02:33:34 clang (llvm) for the rest 02:33:38 or gcc if absoslutely needed 02:33:41 *absolutely 02:33:43 libc is probably newlib 02:33:47 or eglibc for shit things that require glibc 02:33:50 Rugxulo: no it can't 02:33:54 it just compiles them and runs them 02:34:00 you can do that with anything. besides, it's useless 02:34:01 in rAM? 02:34:05 no 02:34:07 to a temp file 02:34:17 hmmm, okay 02:34:54 tcc is cool though... shinhichiro hamaji (anarchy golf owner) contributed 64-bit support to the latest release 02:35:14 I know Rob Landrey whined forever that it didn't support 64-bit 02:35:28 is that the guy that worked on it? 02:35:35 there were other reasons too iirc 02:35:36 he forked it a few times, that's all 02:35:48 his complaints were mostly complete dormancy. 02:35:53 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Colemak = ban. 02:35:56 little option other than to fork 02:35:57 well, that and relying on CVS 02:36:01 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:36:05 which he hates with a passion 02:36:49 as does anyone sane. 02:36:55 and most insane. 02:39:27 CVS's use was only excusable when the principle alternative was RCS... 02:39:48 * pikhq shudders 02:42:10 let's talk about things not likenable to laughing at a retarded kitten 02:42:53 if (argc == 2 && !strcmp(argv[1], "--version")) { 02:42:53 puts("This is not GNU sed version 4.0"); 02:42:54 return 0; 02:42:54 } 02:42:54 —busybox 02:42:59 oopps 02:43:02 chopped fof the comment 02:43:05 /* Lie to autoconf when it starts asking stupid questions. */ 02:43:09 above that 02:43:17 *oops *chopped *off 02:43:21 heh 02:43:40 'chopped' was correct ;-) 02:45:10 12:10:56 AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D 02:45:10 works fine 02:45:12 even on efnet 02:45:29 in fact it only takes a few seconds on freenode 02:45:44 there's only 5769 public rooms 02:46:12 "[#!/bin/mksh] Welcome to the portable MirBSD Korn Shell discussion channel. For mksh on MirBSD see #mirbsd on Freeforge (http://mirbsd.de/irc) as well; be invited to stay here though. Encoding: UTF-8. English spoken. Wir sprechen Deutsch." 02:46:13 oooooooooh 02:46:35 just a fork of pdksh 02:46:37 "This is the website of the MirBSD™ Korn Shell, an actively developed free implementation of the Korn Shell programming language and a successor to the Public Domain Korn Shell (pdksh)." 02:46:40 hope it ain't bloated 02:46:44 Rugxulo: pdksh is unmaintained though 02:46:47 I know 02:46:57 they also forked JOE (-> JUPP) 02:47:13 definitely not gonna ship bash 02:47:42 you can do an "--enable-minimal-config" with Bash, if desired 02:47:53 eh, much rather have a better shell 02:47:55 oh, don't forget Dash (although if you dislike GPL, it probably is) 02:48:01 dash will be available for compatibility, probably 02:48:13 for shell scripting, rc will be overwhelmingly recommended 02:49:15 I'm consdering shipping the Heirloom tools http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/ as the userlaand 02:49:18 *userland 02:49:53 I don't think rc will run autoconf scripts, so you'll have to use dash or similar 02:50:11 no duh, rc is totally different 02:50:21 autoconf scripts can be run with pdksh and the like. 02:50:28 since they're ridiculously over-portable. 02:50:35 which in this case happens to be advantageous for me. 02:50:39 I dunno, often they don't get enough testing 02:50:42 dash will be an optional install i.e. a package 02:50:50 if something breaks, try and fix it, else install dash 02:50:57 any reason to avoid GPL (e.g. dietlibc) explicitly? 02:51:12 well, one, I don't like GPL, but I have two specific objections to dietlibc being GPL 02:51:23 one, the author is a raving loon about it (says it's to stop microsoft stealing it to make windows better) 02:51:31 two, it means i can't redistribute non-GPL binaries compiled with it 02:51:36 so i simply cannot use it 02:51:43 (and yes, this is acknowledged by the author) 02:51:43 yeah, maybe LGPL might be better no? 02:51:47 madbrain: aha, in fact 02:51:51 uclibc is lgpl and i can't use it either 02:51:52 because 02:51:54 since i statically link 02:51:54 non-GPL compatible, maybe, but that's not a huge problem as lots of stuff is GPL anyways 02:51:59 i'd have to distribute the unlinked .o 02:52:05 with the binary 02:52:11 (the program's .o) 02:52:16 Rugxulo: ha ha ha ha ha ha HA 02:52:18 well then just do that 02:52:28 Rugxulo: no, a large amount of non-shit software is non-gpl 02:52:40 I know others exist, but GPL is definitely popular 02:52:48 for instance all suckless tools, all ported plan 9 tools, ... and a lot of shit software is non-gpl too: xorg, ncurses, ... 02:53:00 clang, etc. 02:53:13 Rugxulo: let's put it this way — simply by selecting the least crappy software I can, I will be shipping almost no GPL'd code 02:53:29 depending on having all the programs I ship be GPL will simply never happen 02:53:37 anyway, my first objection stands regardless of anything; he's a loon 02:53:42 (in fact he's a rather well-known loon) 02:54:00 btw since when is clang gpl. 02:54:14 it's bsd just like llvm 02:54:27 ...which is why I'm probably going to use it as the main userspace compiler 02:54:29 llvm-gcc is the only GPL thing of LLVM. 02:54:39 (will have to write my own a.out support for LLVM; easy enough) 02:54:45 no, I said Clang was BSD 02:54:52 you didn't, but i see how to parse it now 02:54:58 I'm not denying other licenses exist, but GPL is everywhere (seemingly) 02:55:34 thankfully those sane enough to produce decent software are also almost always sane enough to avoid the gpl 02:55:46 let's see, what will be gpl'd that i ship... linux and... 02:55:49 um. .. 02:55:55 pretty sure that's it 02:56:01 VIM is GPL compatible, but I don't know the exact details 02:56:04 (ofc there will be gpl'd packages available, talking about default distribution) 02:56:21 ah, okay, linux and vim then 02:56:33 — I'd prefer to ship a better vi clone than vim but they all kinda suck 02:56:36 Perl is dual licensed, I think (artistic and GPL) 02:56:39 at least vim isn't retarded about being traditional 02:56:45 Elvis? XVI? VILE? 02:56:46 i'm looking at you, http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ 02:56:56 (by the same guy as the heirloom tools incidentally) 02:57:07 elvis is unmaintained and shit, wait, i just addressed all of them :P 02:57:08 nvi 02:57:27 nvi is basically the same as http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ 02:57:32 except nvi is a reimplementation 02:57:41 I like VILE, personally, but Elvis is okay too, XVI is a little too spartan 02:57:42 and ex-vi is the real deal 02:57:52 vile isn't a vi clone anyway 02:57:58 it's emacsy vi 02:58:01 no, NVI is a clean-room reimplementation that is 8-bit clean, full undo, tab completion, etc. 02:58:19 but VILE does a lot of stuff normal vi does while keeping most "finger feel" 02:58:48 nvi is BSD, by the way 02:58:53 we'll see, anyway 02:59:03 maybe I'll just ship plan9port's acme :))) 02:59:05 (nah) 02:59:19 I will ship some 9base tools though, maybe even the whole thing 02:59:28 e3vi ? 02:59:37 ehird: Well, it's not surprising that you've got non-GPL'd stuff as the default distribution. 02:59:38 (plan9port fork that just has minimal stuff, no plan9 gui tools or whatever; rc, awk, sed, a few plan9 libs etc) 02:59:40 (hmmm, can't remember what license) 02:59:51 In fact, I might use the libutf included for osme stuff 02:59:53 *some 03:00:01 the original, and best, unicode+utf-8 library 03:00:19 (first implementation of utf-8, right after they invented it) 03:00:22 Most of the nonsuck out there is pretty much BSD. 03:00:28 no 03:00:34 No? 03:00:40 it comes in all shapes and sizes :-) 03:00:50 it really doesn't 03:00:53 good and bad stuff exists in everything 03:01:06 it takes someone sane to produce software that doesn't suck, or at least sanely insane 03:01:08 license is arbitrary 03:01:09 (There's GNU stuff that at least functions correctly, and there's old proprietary UNIX stuff that has crazy amounts of buffer overflows) 03:01:11 sane people don't use the gpl 03:01:43 the mindset someone requires to use the gpl (authoritarian, paranoia, conspiratorial anti-corporatism, ...) is the kind of mindset that produces bad software 03:01:47 (especially authoritarianism) 03:01:47 even MS (rarely) uses the GPL (for that tiny bit of driver code they wrote recently) 03:01:58 Rugxulo: and? MS stuff sucks 03:01:58 and most people consider them "most insane of all" !! 03:02:14 but 99% of their stuff ain't GPL, so ... how can it suck? ;-) 03:02:15 multiple exclamation marks. a sure sign of madness 03:02:20 Rugxulo: fallacy 03:02:28 most non-suck isn't GPL != most non-GPL isn't suck 03:02:41 come on, that's like a third grader's logical error 03:02:46 I know, but you'd think that the company with the most money could hire the best talent, and yet that isn't true either 03:02:55 they can and do, ms people are smart 03:02:58 and they shun the GPL yet still "suck" 03:03:00 it's just that they can't manage them 03:03:00 uh, no 03:03:08 uh, yes. 03:03:17 not in my experience 03:03:20 you realise, Rugxulo, that the inventors of unix worked for ms? 03:03:24 well some of them at least 03:03:26 ritchie iirc 03:03:34 not that I know of 03:03:41 eh, i forget who it was 03:03:43 I know they hired the VMS dude and owned Xenix for a while 03:03:49 Dave Cutler? 03:03:54 HAHAHAHA no 03:04:01 cutler is a moron who hates unix and spreads fud about it 03:04:21 he hates Windows too 03:04:27 no he doesn't, he loves NT 03:04:30 not anymore 03:04:39 oh, did he change his mind? exciting. 03:04:56 anyway, yes, some MS people are smart. the reason they don't have as many is because they manage the smart people terribly 03:05:00 so smart people avoid them 03:05:07 they're perfectly capable of hiring them 03:05:35 he stopped working for them after NT 4.0 (from what I heard) 03:05:48 they just kept him quiet about his differences and continued without him 03:06:02 what ... he still works at microsoft dude 03:06:05 and MS is too keen to advertise instead of actually fixing things 03:06:11 no he doesn't, at least not last I heard 03:06:14 even Zippo doesn't work there anymore 03:06:23 "David Cutler at work on Windows Azure", picture, wikipedia 03:06:24 A Community Technology Preview was given to Professional Developers Conference 2008 attendees.[3] This preview is set to expire in the 2nd quarter of 2009.[citation needed] 03:06:37 At the 2008 Professional Developers Conference, Microsoft announced Azure Services Platform, a cloud-based operating system which Microsoft is developing. During the conference keynote, Cutler was mentioned as a lead developer on the project, along with Amitabh Srivastava.[3] 03:06:41 He was officially involved with the Windows XP Pro 64-bit and Windows Server 2003 SP1 64-bit releases, as well as Windows Vista. He moved to working on Microsoft's Live Platform in August 2006. Dave Cutler was awarded the prestigious status of Technical Fellow at Microsoft. 03:06:55 http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/techfellow/Cutler/default.mspx 03:07:09 that sounds different from what I read, but what do I know? :-P 03:07:32 seems ksh doesn't support tab completion or whatever, begging the question "why use this over rc?" 03:07:48 ehird: Man... 03:07:51 only reason not to use rc is because terminals are dumb and rc only does what it shhould (be a shell) 03:07:53 That's quite awful. 03:07:54 *should 03:08:02 so as a hack, use a shitty shell that oversteps its boundaries 03:08:06 pikhq: define "that" 03:08:11 No tab completion? 03:08:13 *shudder* 03:09:18 I think?? pdksh supports tab completion 03:09:29 really cuz i installed it and i see no tabs bein' completed 03:09:34 BTW, here's what I read on Wikipedia for Cutler (discussion page, heh, not exactly official): 03:09:36 reading the manpage 03:09:36 "Cutler 'left' Microsoft in the spring of 1996. Oh yes he's 'officially' on board but that's only because Microsoft don't want to lose his name. Instead they've helped finance Cutler's race car passion. As Cutler himself said of the deal: 'it keeps me from pissing all over them'. By the time of the Denver DC the word was getting out and Microsofties were whispering in panic 'Dave is gone! Dave is gone!' —Preceding unsigned com 03:09:37 by 90.5.7.87 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008" 03:09:55 conspiracy theories; exciting 03:10:48 Interactive Input Line Editing 03:10:48 The shell supports three modes of reading command lines from a tty in 03:10:49 an interactive session. Which is used is controlled by the emacs, 03:10:52 seems promising 03:12:35 well i can edit line but not tab 03:12:47 vi-tabcomplete In vi command line editing, do 03:12:47 command / file name completion 03:12:48 when tab (^I) is entered in 03:12:48 insert mode. 03:12:49 must be close 03:13:01 "And sorry but I have first hand information that regardless of where he was officially moved he wasn't there anymore. He got sick and tired of them, did a deal to stay silent, and left. He turns up for dos and MS want his name around but he is definitely out of the picture by the spring of 1996. And that's first hand info - from the former developers on his team right outside the Tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90 03:13:01 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008" 03:14:22 yay 03:14:24 got completion working 03:14:58 set -o emacs 03:14:58 bind ^I=complete-list 03:15:00 stick in ~/.kshrc 03:15:09 or, hm 03:15:11 does it read .kshrc 03:15:36 FILES 03:15:36 ~/.profile 03:15:36 /etc/profile 03:15:37 /etc/suid_profile 03:15:37 helpful 03:17:19 whatever, those are the two commands you need 03:19:54 well, this seems to "work" 03:19:59 i'd much prefer rc, but... 03:22:59 I need to refine my C code. 03:25:42 "BTW, don't blame me for this hack; it's in the original ksh." 03:28:14 PS1="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$ " 03:30:13 What's the code to change title of xterm again? 03:32:24 Pity my code for that is in zsh... 03:35:37 set -o emacs 03:35:37 bind ^I=complete-list 03:35:38 dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')" 03:35:38 title=$(printf "\r\r\r\e]0;$dir\a\r") 03:35:38 PS1="$title$dir$ " 03:35:38 unset dir title 03:35:40 BEHOLD 03:36:20 I don't think the r stuff works properly 03:36:21 so 03:36:30 set -o emacs 03:36:30 bind ^I=complete-list 03:36:30 dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')" 03:36:31 title=$(printf "\e]0;$dir\a") 03:36:31 PS1="$title$dir$ " 03:36:31 unset dir title 03:37:16 if [ $0 = ksh ]; then . ~/.kshrc; fi 03:37:16 in ~/.profile 03:37:26 And we're done. 03:38:01 oh 03:38:03 ksh does ## 03:39:03 hmm what's the ${##} type thing to replace... 03:39:12 gah, rc is so much simpler than all of this b u l l s h i t 03:39:46 you wanna know how you get shit in the title in rc? 03:39:47 fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' } 03:39:51 that doesn't do the replacement 03:39:59 wanna know how fucking easy it is to do the replacement? 03:40:20 fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd | sed "s@^$HOME@~@"}^'\a' } 03:40:26 wait, no " quotes 03:40:27 whatever 03:40:28 you get the idea 03:40:29 trivial shit 03:40:33 damn these shells 03:41:56 btw, why do people truncate history files? 03:43:48 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 03:43:55 ahh finally 03:43:58 I have cracked it 03:45:01 wait 03:45:02 argh 03:45:32 okay, i will get this working 03:51:07 why ism't there a rlwrap that keeps track of cwd 03:51:09 isn't 03:55:18 emhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 04:10:13 -!- deschutron has joined. 04:16:22 hmm 04:16:25 -!- Pthing has joined. 04:16:53 what would be a good repartition of memory cycles for a system 04:17:59 * ehird considers writing a fortran compiler for no reason 04:18:06 considering you have 400 memory cycles per scanline (in 320x240 @ 60fps) to share between video hardware, cpu and sound 04:18:27 who needs 60fps, do 640x480 @ 30fps 04:18:51 :P 04:19:03 30fps is not NTSC or VGA compatible 04:19:06 (in fact I'd go for 1280x960 @ 15fps unless i was going to do fun demosceney stuff, but eh; no lcds really support that res) 04:19:10 madbrain: touché 04:19:21 do 24fps then :-P or 29.999997 or whatever ntsc is 04:19:33 but 320x240 is a bit low w imo 04:19:36 *low imo 04:19:52 VGA refuses to display anything that had a horiz refresh of less than 30khz 04:20:02 but you can use line doubling 04:20:21 (in fact that's what vga does for low resolution modes) 04:20:34 ehird: hmmmm 04:20:48 i mean you can do fun graphics at 320x240, but text will be ugly or limited 04:20:49 depends on the use 04:21:05 yeah text definitely benefits from 640x480 04:21:12 30fps is enough for all the fast-paced FPS games out there /shrug 04:21:17 do you mean set the video output at 30Hz, and then display each frame twice at 60Hz 04:21:18 ? 04:21:26 that could work, yep 04:22:05 If you display 640x480 on a TV, you have to make it interlaced though 04:22:26 could just use a crt 04:22:28 (non-tv) 04:22:36 yeah, that would make it VGA 04:22:45 i guess vga is too boringly conventional :-D 04:22:51 Afaik a CRT accepts most stuff you throw at it 04:22:55 yeah 04:22:58 So it's actually not bad 04:22:59 interlacing would work fine though 04:23:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:23:13 But the horiz rate has to be at least 30khz 04:23:13 well, apart from the artifacts :-P 04:23:19 mm 04:24:14 Hence 320x240 (which is actually 320x480 with each line displayed twice) and 640x480 04:24:59 Supporting a TV is cool, though... but interlacing artifacts would ruin the coolness of hooking up an fpga to a TV and seeing a spinning cube :) 04:25:20 do 576i! 04:25:33 what is that 04:25:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i 04:25:40 pal tv resolution 04:25:57 I have no device that would show it 04:26:00 what do you canucks use 04:26:02 ntsc? 04:26:04 yeah 04:26:19 yankeevision 04:26:48 low resolution might not be so bad since it's a crt tv 04:26:52 they basically antialiase for you ;-) 04:27:20 I'm probably going to base it on VGA timing 04:27:30 specifically VGA 640x480 04:28:48 I wonder if LCDs will accept 524 scanline 640x480 or if they want 525 scanlines 04:29:01 isn't vga 640x480 interlacing on a tv 04:29:13 also, LCDs just accept their native resolution. anything else is acceptable 04:29:15 it'll just scale it to shit 04:29:33 well, dunno how LCDs handle freaky hacked VGA modes 04:29:44 badly 04:30:05 one thing I know is that they guess the horiz resolution from the # of lines 04:30:28 specifically they guess 640x350, 720x400 and 640x480 04:31:11 Unfortunately that wrecks 640x400 modes (80x50 text mode and 320x200) 04:33:41 Aren't normal text modes 9 pixels wide per character cell? 04:34:09 there are both 8 pixel and 9 pixel modes! 04:34:20 that's way too small to actually read though :P 04:34:47 in fact VGA has 2 different clock crystals, one for 8 pixel mode (640x) and one for 9 pixel mode (720x) 04:35:09 Isn't there also 16 pixel mode? 04:35:17 each glyph must be 8x20 for 640x480 80x24 text mode 04:36:13 In 9 pixel mode it generates an extra pixel, usually black, without any charset data 04:36:23 by glyph i mean including spaciing 04:36:25 *spacing 04:36:28 ehird: that's a kinda weird mode 04:36:36 so assuming one pixel character separation, 04:36:40 and two pixel line separation 04:36:48 chars themselves would be 7x18 04:36:50 generally 04:37:00 well 04:37:08 yeah 04:37:22 madbrain: it's weird, but it's also fun and unconventional :P 04:37:35 more common is 640x350 80x25 with 8x14 chars, 720x400 80x25 with 8+1x16 chars 04:37:53 640x400 80x50 with 8x8 :D 04:38:01 but 80x24 is more common than 80x25 :-P 04:38:06 not on PC! 04:38:11 define pc 04:38:14 80x24 is universal on unix 04:38:15 IBM PC 04:38:23 bah :-P 04:38:35 who wants to imitate the PC! 04:39:22 I've done some ZZT and Megazeux games, the systems are based on 80x25 04:39:30 anyway, square chars are silly :-P 04:39:44 english isn't square! 04:39:50 Well, that's because our alphabet is narrow yeah :D 04:40:21 8x12 might be good; gives you 80x40 04:40:31 which is an *excellent* size for English text 04:40:53 (and programming...) 04:41:26 might be a bit TOO narrow though 04:41:40 oh, of course 04:41:45 use two pixels at bottom or top for line spacing 04:41:47 and only one for char spacing 04:41:55 (of course you can use them for characters that don't quite fit...) 04:42:03 that way it isn't quite as narrow but the glyphs are still 8x12 04:42:12 8 04:42:13 ok, I have my VGA tweaking program ready to use :D 04:42:13 12 04:42:57 http://www.gameprogrammer.com/demos/tweak16b.zip <- a good old classic vga tweaking program some dude wrote in 1993 04:44:53 drawing non-cookie-cutter pixel fonts is hard 04:45:00 ok, the monitor can definitely cope with a missing vga line or two :D 04:45:17 8x12 would be cool to serif 04:45:17 ehird: I drew a couple in megazeux's char editor 04:45:24 * ehird plays with it 04:45:30 (8x14 of course since that's what megazeux uses) 04:46:06 The best trick with text mode fonts is to keep using 2 pixel wide vertical lines 04:49:00 hmm, that could make this look less like an outline, yeah 04:49:56 ooh 04:50:00 there's enough variation to do bold here 04:50:03 i like this size 04:55:30 madbrain: 7x12 might be better for english text, actually (regular glyph size 6x10 due to spacing) 04:55:45 although... hmm 04:55:46 nah 04:55:53 (it's just that "c" looks a bit stretched) 04:57:14 hmm 04:57:24 madbrain: does 640x480 on a tv have square pixels? 04:57:35 on TVs? 04:57:38 yah 04:57:49 On TVs it's probably something like "who knows" 04:58:09 I can't remember if TVs eat the top and bottom 8 lines 04:58:17 but possibly yes 04:59:17 funny how the pixels look different when you zoom out 04:59:24 most CRTs are so crappy as to smooth out any oddities anyway :D 04:59:41 At least ZSNES seems to output 256x224 05:00:09 and wow — 640x480 is a lot with 8x12 characters! (7x10 regular glyphs yada yada yada) 05:00:28 could fit a novel onto one screen :P 05:00:46 yeah 05:01:08 80x40 doesn't seem much, but it looks like it... 05:01:50 Many apps use 80x50 05:02:42 Funny how you have to do slightly different m etrics to get bold characters to have the same shape as regular ones. 05:03:00 *metrics 05:03:36 why don't people do more serifed pixel fonts? 05:03:50 Dunno, I like sans serif :D 05:04:01 so do I, but serif pixel fonts look nice 05:04:08 since the serifs are so tiny, it's just like adding some spice to it 05:04:18 It's a style yeah 05:04:36 Sans serif is a bit more stylistically neutral 05:05:19 but all sans serif pixel fonts look the same :) 05:05:34 Depends if you're creative :D 05:06:55 well definitely my, what was it, 3x4 glyphs (always 1px spacing around it, so 4x5 if you want ot be pedantic) were pretty unique and yet the same... 05:07:04 unique because I had to contort lots of characters in fun ways, the same because, well 05:07:18 there aren't many ways to draw the alphabet, numbers and some punctuation at that size 05:07:25 although i did have two sets of numbers, lowercase and uppercase 05:07:28 that went with the corresponding alphabet 05:07:29 I suggest 8 pixel wide 05:07:38 and every single one was different 05:07:48 madbrain: glyph or char (spacing) 05:07:59 glyph w/o spacing char w/ 05:08:30 Including spacing, so 7 pixel of data 05:08:48 Unless you also use the spacing pixels! 05:09:10 sometimes you can use them for e.g. accents 05:09:13 or punctuation 05:09:15 and descenders 05:09:22 (ascenders it's generally best to leave the normal spacing) 05:10:00 the one I'm doing now is 7x10 usual glyph, 8x12 size 05:10:10 so your suggestion has been heeded :-P 05:10:38 yeah you need space for descencers, accents over capital letters 05:10:40 etc 05:10:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:10:53 i have a whole two vertical pixels available for descenders :-P 05:10:56 (the vertical spacing at the bottom) 05:11:29 no real space for accents though :-D 05:11:30 I think 8x14 fonts normally have 2 space lines at the top and 3 at the bottom 05:11:44 boring 05:11:53 7x10 glyphs are just enough to be able to design :P 05:12:02 e is really hard though 05:12:27 dunno, you don't have to squeeze it 05:12:34 compared to, say, m 05:12:39 well, to get it looking like my other chars 05:12:41 Also sometimes hard: s 05:12:44 And T 05:12:52 there we go 05:13:01 madbrain: aah s was almost impossible in my 3x4-glyph font 05:13:05 also Z vs 2 05:13:12 and z vs Z 05:13:19 (capital letter = lowercase letter height for space) 05:13:39 in the end I used an optical illusion to make it look like z was like a small zeta even though it had no curve :P 05:13:40 most snes games use sans serif 05:13:53 I used the same to do N 05:13:59 i had to optical illusion the slant 05:15:57 just don't make it into a typewriter font :D 05:16:50 heh, why? 05:17:53 Dunno, I always thought courrier looked awful :D 05:18:27 oh god, it does 05:18:30 i hate courier 05:19:34 some games have chinese calligraphy imitation fonts 05:19:58 although it's hard to shoehorn latin letters into chinese calligraphy due to the kind of shape they use :D 05:20:08 xD 05:22:16 my bold letters look smaller 05:22:23 well they are, i guess, they're shorter generally, the lowercase parts 05:22:26 but that's just so they don't look weird 05:24:50 ooh f is a challenge 05:26:33 success, I think 05:26:39 looks a bit weird, but oho well 05:26:43 very serif 05:28:42 I should use this as a terminal font 05:34:16 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:34:53 I think there's this idea that sans serif is closer to a "pure" version of the letters 05:35:13 that's true, but it also reflects why sans serif pixel fonts almost all look identical 05:35:27 because you have to express the purest form in such constraints, there's almost a "right way" to do it 05:35:29 *do it 05:35:49 at bigger sizes there's more ambiguity, so to speak, so you can have unique sans serif typefaces 05:35:58 but going smaller, serifs really help to distinguish it 05:41:11 hoo yeah 05:41:17 wut 05:41:21 just found the vga 28mhz clock bit 05:42:04 argh, fucking i 05:42:08 how do you make i span 7 chars 05:42:10 pixels 05:42:14 you don't, and you have a shitload of spacing 05:42:16 stupid monospace 05:43:28 Eh, that's monospace 05:43:35 yeah 05:43:38 monospace is pretty silly. 05:43:51 although you can get it to 4 pixels wide with serif 05:43:58 yeah 05:44:00 Monospace isn't silly :D 05:44:06 sure is 05:44:35 wait, how four pixels 05:44:36 i have 3 06:02:04 most modes that would be neat flat out don't work 06:02:19 aww 06:02:24 modes as in text modes or 06:02:31 vga modes 06:02:34 -!- coppro has joined. 06:03:24 which neat ones don't work? 06:04:09 80x40 text mode 640x480 with 8x12 chars DOES work though :D 06:04:21 ^__^ 06:04:24 The best mode there is! 06:04:38 the ones that aren't 320x or 360x (or 640x or 720x for 16 color and text modes) 06:04:52 80x48 might be cooler tho 06:05:01 since you can have two unix terminals at once 06:05:07 80x50 for PC 06:05:11 80x48 is really easy to hack 06:05:26 hmm yeah, too easy 06:05:37 just need to do 8x10 06:05:38 basically character height is free 06:05:50 because it has no effect on monitor timing 06:06:00 80x12 is better for text, anyway, so losing a few lines is no big deal 06:06:16 monitor timing is the stupid part where the monitor gets finnicky and refuses your mode 06:06:23 heh 06:06:34 madbrain: what's the lowest res and highest timing you ca n d o 06:06:35 *can do 06:06:38 *can do 06:07:34 VGA is not meant for modes other than x350, x400 and x480 although normally modes with less lines actually do work 06:07:54 try :D 06:10:10 what works is modes with faster frame rates and more lines, except VGA has a fixed clock so none of these modes are practical outside SVGA 06:17:49 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 06:31:57 "Of the 51 system calls present in Plan 9, we have written equivalents of the most essential ones, allowing simple executables like cat, sed, grep and even the Plan 9 C compiler, 8c to run unmodified on Linux." —Glendix 06:32:00 maybe i could reuse the c compiler 06:32:01 (nah) 06:32:04 too standards incompliant 06:32:17 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:37:57 http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/technology/computers/7869585-man-using-trackball.php?id=7869585 hypnotic 06:43:03 -!- cal153 has joined. 06:53:32 "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and then Berkeley had what we called 'copycenter', which is 'take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want.'" — Kirk McKusick, BSDCon 1999 06:55:01 "Controversial decisions are often made differently from OpenBSD; for instance, there won't be any support for SMP in MirOS." let me know how that works out for you 07:02:54 -!- deschutron has left (?). 07:04:27 ooh 07:04:32 an alternative to llvm/clang? mayhaps 07:06:06 http://pcc.zentus.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/os/linux/ccconfig.h?rev=1.16;content-type=text%2Fplain Repeat after me! Linux! Is! Not! ELF! 07:37:23 * ehird attempts to use CVS as a DVCS 07:37:24 MWAHAHAHA 07:45:05 That was surprisingly easy 07:48:39 Ew, I even got pulling and pushing for free 07:48:48 I feel dirty now (← DO NOT TAKE THESE TWO LINES OUT OF CONTEXT) 07:49:21 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg 07:49:23 This image is photoshopped 07:49:24 This image is photoshopped 07:49:25 This image is photoshopped 07:49:27 This image is photoshopped or a ripoff 07:49:36 Oh god AnMaster, you are so lucky to have bought yours already 07:49:38 ;_; 07:52:18 waaaaaaaait, it looks 4:3 07:52:21 must be a shop. 07:56:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:56:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:47 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 08:09:35 A C compiler that compiles in less than a minute. Refreshing. 08:14:30 Which? 08:17:52 http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/, an update of the old pcc. BSD licensed. 08:17:58 Ah, PCC. 08:18:03 Tiny, fast. Good platform support. Good GCC compatibility. 08:18:08 BSDs are eyeing it to replace GCC eventually. 08:18:16 It also compiles very quickly. 08:18:22 (as in, compiles code you give to it) 08:18:23 A C compiler that doesn't have more abstraction layers than frontends. :P 08:18:28 and the compiler itself compiles in less than a minute 08:18:30 pikhq: :-D 08:18:43 * ehird makes it compile itself 08:19:33 Unfortunately it doesn't have -Os yet 08:19:47 but methinks this may be a contender for the main compiler 08:19:53 Minimalist, well-coded, well-licensed, and fast. 08:20:11 "YACC The `Yet Another C Compiler' implementation to use." 08:20:16 a typo in autoconf?! 08:20:28 ... Man. 08:20:34 :| 08:20:47 And I thought autoconf was a well-implemented bad idea, rather than a typo'd one. :P 08:20:56 I sure hope someone changed that in some pcc file, because oh my word. 08:20:59 ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY? 08:21:01 erm 08:21:03 /usr/include//stdarg.h:8: error: "This header only supports __MWERKS__." 08:21:03 ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY? 08:21:13 #if defined(__GNUC__) 08:21:14 #include_next 08:21:14 #elif defined(__MWERKS__) 08:21:14 #include "mw_stdarg.h" 08:21:14 #else 08:21:15 #error "This header only supports __MWERKS__." 08:21:16 #endif 08:21:21 *facepalms* 08:21:50 *facepalm* 08:21:57 Additionally, stdargs.h only works with gcc. Paste the following lines into /usr/local/lib/pcc/stdarg.h: 08:22:00 Thanks pcc website 08:22:01 * ehird pastes 08:22:15 It does the obvious: 08:22:17 #ifndef _STDARG_H_ 08:22:17 #define _STDARG_H_ 08:22:17 #define va_list char * 08:22:17 #define _VA_LIST 08:22:18 #define va_start(ap, last) __builtin_stdarg_start((ap), last) 08:22:18 #define va_arg(ap, type) __builtin_va_arg((ap), type) 08:22:20 #define va_end(ap) __builtin_va_end((ap)) 08:22:22 #define va_copy(dest, src) __builtin_va_copy((dest), (src)) 08:22:24 #endif 08:22:26 Oops, flood. Sorry. 08:22:46 ld whines a lot about 08:22:47 ld warning: can't find atom for N_GSYM stabs _stublist:G1 in compat.o 08:22:53 and we get the error 08:22:56 pcc -DGCC_COMPAT -DPCC_DEBUG -Dos_darwin -Dmach_i386 -D_ISOC99_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../.. -I../../mip -I../../arch/i386 -I../../os/darwin -g -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -Wtruncate -c -o pftn.o pftn.c 08:22:56 pftn.c, line 1856: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x839b70 op OREG 08:22:58 But before that? 08:22:59 Damn that flew. 08:23:35 for (i = 0, base = tylnk.next; base; base = base->next, i++) 08:23:35 a[i] = base->df; 08:23:41 Odd place to fail (the second line, I think) 08:55:53 Maybe it's in fact the previous line. 08:57:32 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg <-- huh 08:57:40 probably either photoshopped or a fake. 08:57:45 (ripoff fake that is) 08:57:46 ehird, probably 08:57:55 especially note that stretched thinkpad logo≥ 08:57:55 what's about it 08:57:57 *logo. 08:58:04 puzzlet: it's an abomination against thinkpads 08:58:08 ehird, yes indeed 08:58:10 - chiclet keyboard (seriously!!) 08:58:11 - white shell 08:58:17 - ugh, just so ugly 08:58:25 ehird, chiclet keyboard? 08:58:30 what do you mean 08:58:31 look carefully 08:58:33 the keys are separated 08:58:35 think macbook keyboard 08:58:37 or sony vaio 08:58:42 ehird, oh indeed 08:58:48 also shallower than most laptop keyboards 08:58:58 i'm fairly sure lenovo would never do this though 08:59:02 unless to the sl line, which sucks anyway 08:59:23 sl line? 08:59:34 thinkpad SL. 08:59:41 "consumer"; glossy, iirc 16:9 not sure though 08:59:45 ouch 08:59:47 internals are not actually thinkpad internals. 08:59:51 (taken from ideapad or something) 09:00:00 * AnMaster googles ideapad 09:00:09 "consumer" lenovo notebooks 09:00:13 ah 09:00:50 AnMaster: link me to latest cfunge code drop or bzr or whatever 09:00:55 I'm gonna try and compile it with pcc :) 09:01:42 ehird, it doesn't compile with pcc. at least didn't last I tried. 09:01:48 new pcc or old. 09:01:51 pcc failing at C99 09:01:55 that's been improved. 09:01:55 ehird, about half a year ago? 09:01:56 massively 09:01:59 ehird, ah 09:02:05 well. sec for code 09:02:06 http://www.bsdfund.org/projects/pcc/ 09:02:10 see "improved c99 functionality". 09:02:31 bzr branch lp:cfunge/trunk 09:03:14 "Support BSD with every purchase! Every time you use the BSD Fund Visa, a small donation is made to BSD Fund to support its programs." 09:03:14 That requires some dedication... 09:03:54 https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk 09:04:06 maybe there is a "get a tarball" link there somewhere 09:04:09 can't see one though 09:04:17 Already branched. 09:04:29 CMake seems happy with pcc so far, using ccmake. 09:04:49 Default settings are fine to build a full cfunge, yep? 09:05:12 ehird, should be. Not sure if cmake is likely to mess something up there 09:05:20 with pcc I mean 09:05:21 time make go 09:05:30 [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/genx/genx.c.o 09:05:34 /Users/ehird/Downloads/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c, line 848: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x81c490 op >> 09:05:38 Eventful build, that. 09:05:42 hah 09:05:47 Note: This is probably due to me being on OS X. 09:05:53 Want I should try it in my Arch VM? 09:05:54 ehird, that file isn't even very C99ish 09:05:59 See note about OS X. 09:06:15 ehird, well. feel free to. I tried it under FreeBSD iirc 09:07:15 "Command substitution was something else I added because that gives you very general mechanism to do string processing; it allows you to get strings back from commands and use them as the text of the script as if you had typed it directly. I think this was a new idea that I, at least, had not seen in scripting languages, except perhaps LISP." 09:07:15 Fuck you Bourne, it was a really terrible idae. 09:07:16 *idea 09:07:44 ehird, why? 09:07:48 if you mean `` 09:07:59 (and later on $() ) 09:08:01 because you have to put quotes everywhere so that it ends up just like a regular programming language 09:08:02 it is very useful 09:08:26 okay good point 09:08:27 all uses of it in non-quoted ways apart from to send as arguments (like python *foo) are harmful hacks because the shell is crippled 09:08:53 "sudo pacman -S bzr cvs" 09:09:21 cvs? 09:09:25 for pcc. 09:09:35 AnMaster: Also: "Moreover - although the v7 shell is written in C - Bourne took advantage of some macros[1] to give the C source code an ALGOL 68 flavor." 09:09:40 Basically this guy is totally crazy. 09:09:54 ("Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is. Even examination of the source code is little help." —Tom Duff) 09:10:09 hah 09:10:15 http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/main.c.html 09:10:21 Feast your eyes upon the macroed horror!!!! 09:10:31 IF (flags&prompt) ANDF standin->fstak==0 ANDF !eof 09:10:32 THENIF mailnod.namval 09:10:32 ANDF stat(mailnod.namval,&statb)>=0 ANDF statb.st_size 09:10:32 ANDF (statb.st_mtime != mailtime) 09:10:32 ANDF mailtime 09:10:33 THENprs(mailmsg) 09:10:34 FI 09:11:06 heh 09:11:30 Sweet, pcc supports pdp11. 09:11:30 UFD output = 2; 09:11:30 LOCAL BOOL beenhere = FALSE; 09:11:31 huh 09:11:43 Also pdp10. 09:12:15 ehird, but ksh isn't this bad 09:12:19 afaik? 09:12:26 pdksh probably isn't so bad. 09:12:37 I'm still erring on the side of rc for the shell 09:12:56 ehird, who was that "Tom Duff" you mentioned (invokes aisness) 09:13:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Duff. he also has an account on our wiki, and that picture is horrible 09:13:31 AnMaster: duff device 09:13:33 ah! 09:13:36 that duff 09:13:43 http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/gfx/pjw.ps.17761.gif 09:13:46 much better picture :-P 09:13:58 wait, that's "pjw" 09:14:09 wrong person 09:14:10 ? 09:14:13 yeah 09:14:57 Hmm, pcc doesn't do C++. 09:15:07 ehird, not an issue is it? 09:15:11 just use clang 09:15:17 when it becomes stable for c++ 09:15:22 It can do WebKit. 09:15:26 Linking clangged WebKit with pcc'd surf, though? 09:15:29 Sounds risky. 09:15:39 ehird, why not use clang for everything? 09:15:47 well, apart from kernel 09:15:48 pcc is simpler, faster. 09:15:52 that isn't supported yet iirc 09:16:25 * ehird is considering purchasing a trackball 09:16:42 it's just... i think i've retarded my thumbs using a mouse for so lnog 09:16:45 *long 09:16:46 seriously 09:16:53 emulating trackball motion is uncomfortable 09:17:25 * ehird make clean, reconfigure w— 09:17:29 oh, I forgot to compile the libraries first 09:17:37 pcc-libs go go go 09:18:06 ehird, hah 09:19:06 Can too create executables! 09:19:25 Oh. 09:19:31 Would help if pcc was in my path, ehehehehe... 09:19:37 Oops, turned into MKRY there. 09:20:17 AnMaster: have you ever used a trackball? 09:20:33 ehird, yes. found it quite awkward. Only very temporarily 09:20:41 when helping someone having one with a computer issue. 09:20:43 some years ago 09:20:43 Thumb or finger? 09:20:51 i.e. trackball in middle or to the side 09:20:56 ehird, I think the ball was on the side 09:21:22 Uncomfortable just after your thumb (bottom of your hand), would you say? That's what I'm getting when attempting it in thin air 09:21:30 The lifting up motion, so to speak. 09:21:37 Woot, pcc compiles itself. 09:21:38 ehird, The fact that it was a left hand edition didn't help 09:21:44 oh. 09:21:46 Well that'd do it. 09:21:59 Aaaand pcc is replaced by a pcc compiled by itself YO DAWG 09:22:01 ehird, I actually use mouse quite well with either hand 09:22:29 * AnMaster has a symetric mouse for that reason 09:25:02 ehird, any luck with cfunge? 09:25:05 pcc cannot compile a simple test program, sweet 09:25:14 "ld: cannot find -lc" 09:25:22 wat. 09:25:30 ehird, heh 09:25:34 that would be libc 09:25:39 i gathered 09:25:54 /lib/libc.so.6 exists. 09:28:05 ehird, well then. I can't help you at all 09:28:10 no clue with pcc 09:28:19 It's ld, not pcc. 09:29:17 ehird, does gcc work? 09:29:30 Hm; no. 09:29:37 base-devel is all you need in arch, right? 09:29:37 well then 09:30:01 ehird, uh. maybe. not 100% sure. I know it works on my arch system for sure 09:30:07 but it was so long ago I set it up 09:30:43 * ehird upgrades glibc 09:30:59 Aaaand it works 09:31:13 Nope. 09:31:17 Not with pcc it doesn't. 09:32:15 wait if gcc didn't work. How comes you could compile pcc at all? 09:32:29 I don't know, don't ask me. 09:32:41 fair enough 09:32:56 Maybe only pcc is adding -lc, and I forgot to rm -rf before ccmaking without CC=pcc. 09:32:58 So it used pcc again. 09:33:03 But pcc could compile pcc. 09:33:06 So cmake is fucking up. 09:33:30 ehird, possible. Or pcc is having issues with one of the cmake tests 09:33:38 No. 09:33:40 ehird, check if cmake works with gcc for cfunge 09:33:40 It is ld. 09:33:46 "-lc" is wrong, whyever it's being added. 09:33:50 I did. It does. 09:33:53 or at least 09:33:55 it starts configuring 09:33:57 properly 09:34:09 well then. if it passes the point where cmake fails pcc? 09:34:12 hm 09:34:59 ehird, just that I know cfunge breaks some older cmake 2.6 versions. IIRC the interval [2.6, 2.6.3) 09:35:12 2.6-patch 4 09:35:17 Is that 2.6.4? 09:35:26 ehird, yeah same thing. Just me being lazy 09:35:43 ehird, anyway it breaks it by throwing a syntax error during the configure thing 09:35:52 on the cmake moduls 09:35:58 modules* 09:37:07 Hmm. 09:37:29 There's also /usr/lib/libc.so 09:37:33 huh 09:37:42 ehird, run file on it 09:37:48 because I have a vague idea 09:37:56 ASCII C program text?! 09:38:05 ehird, ah a linker script 09:38:05 oh 09:38:07 it's a gnu ld script 09:38:08 heh 09:38:12 But my ld is gnu... 09:38:24 Anyway, won't it use /lib/libc.so.6? 09:38:28 instead of that. 09:38:32 ehird, no fucking clue 09:38:38 it should by that linker script 09:38:47 Use the shared library, but some functions are only in 09:38:47 the static library, so try that secondarily. */ 09:38:47 OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64) 09:38:47 GROUP ( /lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) ) 09:38:49 err 09:38:52 comment fail 09:38:54 first line was: 09:38:56 yeah, that's what i have too 09:38:57 /* GNU ld script 09:39:02 ehird, that is on gentoo btw 09:39:37 but it should be similar. maybe some diff in the /lib64 bit depending on how exactly the multilib stuff is done 09:39:51 (or if it is 32-bit) 09:39:59 Ohh, of course. 09:40:02 ENABLE_64BIT is on. 09:40:15 ehird, that only affects size of funge cells 09:40:17 I'll look in the retarded 64 directories — hey, another problem my distro doesn't have! :P 09:40:24 AnMaster: well it's 64 bit arch too 09:40:25 so 09:40:37 ehird, it is int32_t vs. int64_t for funge cells 09:40:40 aha 09:40:41 that is all it does 09:40:41 mine differs 09:40:47 OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf32-i386) 09:40:48 AND 09:40:49 I have no lib64s 09:40:52 CONCLUSION 09:40:55 what in cry's name 09:40:59 do i need some sort of 09:41:02 magic-64bit-package 09:41:12 ehird, wait, is the distro 64-bit? 09:41:18 ...wait. 09:41:19 No. 09:41:19 * AnMaster only has 32-bit arch handy 09:41:20 XD 09:41:35 I'm so confused... about everything... 09:41:46 ehird, nothing new there ;P 09:41:51 Ha, a blind person who likes Python. 09:41:56 "Tab. Tab. print" 09:42:03 ehird, joking? 09:42:07 Nope, really 09:42:11 wow 09:42:15 that's... unexpected 09:42:16 [[I code with edbrowse, which is a derivitive of /bin/ed]] 09:42:19 Hardcore 09:42:22 (Also the only option) 09:42:28 only option? how so? 09:42:41 The whole blind thing doesn't mesh with, you know, graphical editors. 09:42:46 true 09:42:50 (Including vi and all) 09:42:56 ehird, one of those braile ttys? 09:43:02 Meh. 09:43:04 for multiline text display 09:43:06 Screenreaders are easier. 09:43:10 And make typing easier. 09:43:19 ehird, possibly. *imagines Microsoft sam reading lisp code* 09:43:30 I sort of wish I could be temporarily blind, just so I could set up a tricked out text-to-speech environmeent. 09:43:33 *environment 09:45:30 ehird, blindfold? 09:45:42 It's tempting! 09:45:58 * AnMaster imagines ehird's parents reaction on that 09:46:01 It's a whole fun avenue of interface design that I'm totally deprived of. Blind people have it easy! 09:46:09 wait I think I missed some ' there 09:46:54 ehird, you know. Since you aren't deaf you could use it even when without a blindfold 09:47:18 But I'd cheat by looking. 09:47:29 Also, it'd be boring. :P 09:47:31 Somehow. 09:47:41 ehird, turn off the monitor? 09:47:47 and unplug it's cable 09:47:53 oh wait. imac 09:47:56 nvm 09:48:33 What I mean is, looking at something that doesn't change (assuming I blanked the screen). 09:48:35 Would get boring. 09:49:34 ehird, um 09:50:20 Just remember to not eat any floating eyes to get the most realistic being-blind blindfold experience. 09:50:21 ehird, tell me if you manage to get pcc to work 09:50:42 fizzie, hah 09:50:42 Wait. 09:50:45 I can just do -Wl,-v 09:50:46 Duh 09:50:48 Or is it -V 09:50:51 -V? 09:50:54 verbose 09:51:01 $ ld -V 09:51:02 GNU ld (GNU Binutils) 2.18 09:51:02 Supported emulations: 09:51:02 elf_x86_64 09:51:02 elf_i386 09:51:02 i386linux 09:51:04 well not -V 09:51:06 try 09:51:08 ld --help 09:51:13 Or just --verbose :P 09:51:25 --verbose it is 09:51:38 Actually, it is the same as -V 09:51:41 that dumps the entire default linker script it seems 09:51:45 I think 09:51:48 ehird, ld --verbose != ld -V 09:51:51 in my tests 09:51:54 Well, it's dumping the script too 09:51:55 not sure with arguments 09:52:09 --verbose dumps linker script, -V doens't 09:52:12 doesn't* 09:52:13 for me 09:52:25 -v, --version Print version information 09:52:25 -V Print version and emulation information 09:52:25 "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed" 09:52:29 YOU ARE STUPID AND YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID 09:52:31 --verbose Output lots of information during link 09:52:46 ehird, pcc is doing something strange with the arguments? 09:52:54 Dunno 09:52:57 ehird, I'm pretty sure it must have passed the full path for that to happen 09:53:00 But it should surely then look at the next directory 09:53:04 It's definitely -lc 09:53:49 well 09:53:52 here it goes like: 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.so failed 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.a failed 09:53:57 attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/lib64/libc.so failed 09:53:59 [...] 09:54:08 attempt to open /usr/lib64/libc.so succeeded 09:54:08 opened script file /usr/lib64/libc.so 09:54:12 attempt to open /lib64/libc.so.6 succeeded 09:54:17 /lib64/libc.so.6 09:54:35 Any way to get ld to tell me what arguments it'd getting? 09:56:05 ehird, hm *looks* 09:56:19 *it's 09:56:45 ehird, make ld a shell script that prints args then call the real ld 09:56:57 that should work at the very least 09:56:59 That would be my second choice. 09:57:01 Or just LD=echo 09:57:39 doesn't work uggh 09:57:40 *ugh 09:58:33 ehird, strace 09:58:34 strace it is always an option. 09:58:39 AHA 09:58:41 fizzie, hah beat you to it! 09:58:41 Rrrr, AnMaster's too fast. 09:58:41 YOU HAVE BEEN REVEALED 09:58:47 AnMaster, fizzie: I KNEW YOU WERE THE SAME 09:58:52 fizzie is just major trolling me with AnMaster 09:58:57 you scoundrel! 09:59:02 I should've just stopped at "strace" without bothering with the trailing part. 09:59:03 ehird, you got that backwards 09:59:12 But fizzie doesn't annoy me. 09:59:19 ehird, that is the whole point 09:59:23 ehird, to confuse you 09:59:27 Deep, man. 09:59:46 ehird, trolling by niceness 10:00:09 Please do that some more; it's devastating. 10:00:27 strace + ncurses = LOL WUT 10:00:56 ehird, oh is this in cmake? 10:01:01 try cmake instad of ccmake 10:01:02 yah 10:01:04 just did 10:01:07 and set CC=pcc before 10:01:08 of course 10:01:10 well 10:01:15 path to pcc if it isn't in path 10:01:30 ehird, and use the follow forks mode 10:01:39 otherwise it won't tell you anything useful 10:01:40 what flag's that 10:01:56 strace -f 10:01:57 iirc 10:02:04 -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files 10:02:04 -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message 10:02:16 Whee hueg spew to my console. 10:02:19 X is for weenies. 10:02:43 Yes, -o is often a good idea for strace too. 10:02:52 fizzie, indeed 10:02:59 and in this case probably -ff 10:03:05 since there will be lots of forks 10:03:34 I'd do -f; you can grep a single file just as easily as multiple files. 10:03:45 well true 10:04:01 "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed" <-- last solution: symlink that to the right file? 10:04:14 How about no :P 10:04:22 ehird, oh btw your tripplet would be different 10:04:26 no linux-gnu 10:04:27 Tripppppppppppppplet. 10:04:32 Also, yeah. 10:04:36 haha nice typo indeed 10:04:37 It'll be i686-pc-linux-newlib. 10:04:44 AnMaster: better trippplet 10:05:00 "Trippppy, man." 10:05:03 Where does the executable format go in a full whateverlet? 10:05:06 After the arch? 10:05:48 Wait, what? It's executing /usr/local/bin/ld. 10:06:02 ehird, it is? 10:06:04 Which uh, doesn't exist 10:06:08 Does -f follow vforks? 10:06:12 ehird, no 10:06:13 As well 10:06:14 Hmm 10:06:15 you need -F for that 10:06:18 Because there's a vfork() here 10:06:20 see above 10:06:24 Does -F follow fork()s or do i need both 10:06:29 " -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message" 10:06:32 ehird, not sure 10:06:34 maybe both 10:06:36 I'll do both 10:06:48 Ah, the local one fails 10:06:50 Then it goes /bin 10:06:50 argh wait 10:06:52 man page: 10:06:53 Then /usr/bin 10:06:54 -F This option is now obsolete and it has the same functionality as -f. 10:06:56 ehird, ^ 10:06:57 lawl 10:06:58 okay then 10:07:01 *groan* 10:07:51 It looks for libc.so and .a in the pcc dir, then /usr/i686{...}/lib/libc.{so,a} 10:07:55 then local- libc.so 10:07:57 then local-libc.a 10:07:58 then /lib 10:08:01 then /usr/lib .so 10:08:08 which succeeds 10:08:11 finds the script 10:08:22 then goes t o /usr/lib/libc.so, um, again? whatever 10:08:39 Then it goes to /lib/libc.so.6 which works (!) 10:08:49 ehird, then what causes the error? 10:09:00 then it reads something into a buffer containing "the 'gets' function is dangerous[…]" xD 10:09:20 ehird, oh well I don't use it. It probably just reads a section listing bad stuff. 10:09:22 Then it goes to /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a, no fucking clue why 10:09:27 for warnings 10:09:33 /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a exists? 10:09:48 * AnMaster wonders what the local-libc is 10:09:51 then local- libc.so 10:09:51 then local-libc.a 10:09:52 /usr/local 10:09:53 both? 10:09:56 yes 10:10:01 now it goes to /lib/ld-linux.so.2 10:10:03 the space one? 10:10:08 ??????? 10:10:09 ehird, expected for parths 10:10:12 parts* 10:10:20 runtime linker 10:10:23 gotta go 10:10:25 -!- ehird has quit. 10:10:26 probably dlopen()ing 10:10:28 huh 10:10:28 why 11:08:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:39:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 11:42:29 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:02:23 hi ais523 12:02:39 hi 12:03:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 12:05:32 * AnMaster considers the differences between the ubuntu installer and the netbsd installer. 12:06:30 I think the netbsd installer is asking me more questions than even the ubuntu installer in expert mode on that alternative cd did.. 12:07:08 ooh like this: "Please choose the password cipher to use. NetBSD can be configured to use either the DES, MD5, Blowfish or SHA1 schemes." 12:08:05 and 'If you are upgrading and would like to keep configuration unchanged, choose the last option "do not change".' 12:08:17 (why can't it check that itself btw...) 12:28:31 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:53:25 -!- augur_ has joined. 12:53:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:56:14 -!- FireyFly has joined. 13:31:59 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 13:33:36 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:33:39 -!- augur has joined. 13:46:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:48:50 I don't quite see how the installer is supposed to check whether the user wants to change something or not except by asking the user, like it's doing there. 13:51:20 fizzie, well, you have to select one of them on first install. So giving an option to not change on a new install is weird 13:51:24 since it is meant for upgrades 13:51:40 oh it also asks you if you *want* to see the root password 13:51:46 as if you wouldn't 13:52:23 That's for cryptanalysts that want a can-I-break-it test where they can't cheat. (Okay, so not really.) 13:52:47 XD 13:53:56 Feh; "2 November 2009: Notification of accepted applications" was promised, but I haven't received any emails yet. Certainly there's still many hours of 2 Nov remaining, but still. 13:58:28 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 14:00:50 fizzie, for what? 14:01:28 For my thesis research funding thing. 14:02:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:02:24 fizzie, so you suspect you weren't accpted? 14:02:47 ouch 14:04:02 Actually I suspect otherwise, based on very unofficial hush-hush rumours from my super²visor (who was in the graduate school board meeting where these things were designed); I guess they're just lazy about official announcements. 14:04:25 (A super²visor is a supervisor's supervisor, of course.) 14:04:50 s/designed/decided/; thinko. 14:19:20 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 14:20:33 -!- Jaykul has left (?). 16:14:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:23:00 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 16:32:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:34:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:38:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:02:39 -!- augur has joined. 17:25:25 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:26:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:28:49 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 17:33:30 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 17:40:04 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 17:41:19 [125244.889404] ACPI Warning (nseval-0177): Excess arguments - method [BEEP] needs 1, found 2 [20080926] <-- huh? 17:42:14 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:42:41 what 17:44:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:50:43 Oranjer1, my reaction exactly 17:51:00 well, do you know what it says? 17:51:24 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 17:52:06 Oranjer, I read it, if that is what you mean 17:52:09 and now I found it 17:52:11 http://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-acpi-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg01770.html 17:52:14 seems relevant 17:52:40 indeed 17:53:33 however my thinkpad is not listed in that quirk table 17:53:44 tell them? 17:54:11 -!- lament has left (?). 17:54:12 should. Day after tomorrow though. Bit busy currently. Large test tomorrow at university 17:54:15 bbl 18:15:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:27:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 18:28:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:01:33 Yay, BasiliskII; http://zem.fi/~fis/mac.png 19:03:40 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit ("Leaving"). 19:05:48 what fizzie 19:07:10 fizzie, ppc? 19:07:37 guess not 19:07:46 AnMaster: No, BasiliskII does 68k only. 19:07:47 ppc? what? 19:07:49 fizzie, what is that Unix thing? network share? 19:07:59 fizzie, or some sort of "guest additions"? 19:08:00 XD 19:08:48 AnMaster: It's a BasiliskII-internal "show this Unix path as a volume" thing; I'm not quite sure how it's done on the MacOS side; it needs File System Manager V1.2 installed, though. 19:09:16 interesting 19:09:37 fizzie, what rom 19:09:37 ? 19:10:20 AnMaster: Uh... no comment, due to not exactly owning a 68k-suitable Mac right now. 19:10:35 Oranjer, you could google. You ask so many questions that we just end up ignoring them as it is 19:10:46 oh 19:10:47 fizzie, I want it too 19:10:53 :P 19:11:05 fizzie, I only have a "newworld" mac 19:11:12 Well, it was from http://files.oldos.org/files/macdl/quadra650.rom 19:12:06 and system 7.5.3? 19:12:16 I think I may have a cd with that for PPC around 19:12:29 7.5.something I mean 19:12:53 7.5.3 from Apple's site. 19:13:07 oh they made it public? 19:13:08 heh 19:13:13 http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/ 19:13:17 ah 19:13:53 Oh, and http://w1.312.comhem.se/~u31227643/macboot.img.gz for a boot floppy image. 19:14:13 fizzie, smi.bin 19:14:16 how hm 19:15:00 That macboot.img is the System 7.5 "Network Access Disk"; it's just that Apple's disk image of it is StuffIt'd with a reasonably new version, something macunpack on Linux doesn't read. Of course if you have a system that can run real StuffIt, that's not a problem. 19:15:08 fizzie, interesting when removing the file from that last url 19:15:13 I'm not 100% I would trust it 19:15:20 -!- adam_d has joined. 19:15:44 fizzie, depends. How new? I have one with OS 9... 19:15:53 would be a PITA however 19:15:58 I don't know how new, but that sounds new enough. 19:16:41 And .smi.bin is a very good format; you can use the hfsutils tools to get the MacBinary file into a HFS disk image, then attach that into whatever emulator you use for running MacOS, and there the .smi files are automagically mountable. (Of course you need something to boot from, like that network access disk image.) 19:20:31 no md5sums file 19:20:43 too much to expect I guess 19:20:49 fizzie, no resource fork issues? 19:21:15 Well, not during the installation. Some problems with the provided Glider 4 zip, though. 19:21:22 oh hah 19:21:29 fizzie, what about glider pro? 19:21:32 does it work on that 19:21:35 or does it need ppc? 19:21:37 AnMaster: Too new. :p 19:21:53 As in, "too new, not interested". 19:21:56 fizzie, damn. So basically useless. tried that shoehorn? 19:22:04 oh 19:22:05 ok 19:22:14 err 19:22:14 I assume it might be PPC-only, too, since it runs on OS X and OS 9 only. 19:22:23 not shoehorn 19:22:23 I mean 19:22:24 sheepshaver 19:22:34 fizzie, there are those "fat binaries" 19:22:40 with both PPC and 68k 19:22:50 somewhat like the universal binaries these days 19:23:11 Yes, I guess. I don't have OS 9, anyway. 19:23:45 Err, except maybe as the "Classic" thing on the PPC OS X iBook. 19:24:16 But, well, I could then just run it under OS X on the iBook, it's a supported system and all. Where's the fun in that? 19:25:33 fizzie, that would bring down fungot wouldn't it? 19:25:37 ARGH WHERE IS fungot?! 19:25:50 The web server laptop is still not the iBook. 19:25:59 It's that Pentium M I pasted flags from the other day. 19:26:11 And I guess fungot died in that Freenode messup too. 19:26:52 RAW >>> ERROR :Closing Link: momus.zem.fi (Nick collision from syn.) <<< 19:26:55 fizzie, oh? does it quit or reconnect in that case? 19:27:07 No, it dies if the SOCK 'R' operation fails. 19:27:22 fizzie, so why didn't your service supervisor restart it? 19:27:30 daemontools or such 19:27:32 or maybe inittab 19:27:36 Because I don't run it under one? 19:27:42 fizzie, why not :P 19:27:57 -!- fungot has joined. 19:27:58 it sounds like the obvious thing 19:28:25 fizzie, if it is on ubuntu you could write an upstart script for it 19:29:32 It's a relatively messy Debian virtual-machine thing, and I'm not interested enough to play with it that much; there's a lot to fix, the ignore settings still aren't persisted, for one thing. 19:30:44 * AnMaster tests cfunge under netbsd 19:30:47 configuring atm 19:31:53 Anyway, the Glider 4 zip seems to have the resource forks saved in that OS X thing, with a __MACOSX folder containing ._foo files for each foo file. The "macstream" utility I have can do some sort of AppleShare → MacBinary conversion (then I could stuff the MacBinary data into the HFS disk with hfsutils), and as far as I know that's sort-of the AppleShare format, but it just says "Short file X" for the zero-length data files X, where all the real meat is in 19:31:53 the ._X resource fork. 19:32:41 and that should prove that cfunge is portable. Because if it runs on netbsd it implies that it is likely it will run on all platforms netbsd supports (I know it works on sparc already and ppc, so endian issues would be unlikely). And if it runs on all platforms that netbsd supports it runs on everything 19:32:47 proof by reduction I believe? 19:32:54 ;) 19:33:28 -!- serp has joined. 19:33:43 what is this channel? 19:33:55 a language about esoteric programming languages 19:34:04 o i c 19:34:06 (hm why isn't that in topic any more) 19:34:19 serp, you were going here for the other sort? 19:34:36 happens every few month ;) 19:34:51 no I like esoteric languages 19:34:53 what is your favorite? 19:35:02 befunge and intercal. 19:35:22 I guess I could use genisoimage (mkisofs) to make a HFS CD image, I think that tool had a really crazy list of supported formats. That feels a bit silly though. 19:35:22 I like befunge 19:35:26 haven't heard about intercal 19:35:47 intercal would the the archetypical one. Since it was basically the first one 19:35:50 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:36:08 (not that it is on topic all the time.) 19:36:13 (the channel I mean) 19:36:24 why not? 19:36:37 we are all easily distracted perhaps? 19:36:42 I see 19:36:45 yay, I got cfunge to compile under netbsd 19:36:51 I like esoteric languages 19:37:47 omg it's the serp 19:38:01 olsner, you know him? 19:38:10 oh .se. Hej 19:38:26 Hej! 19:38:26 serp: som du ser finns det andra svenskar här också :D 19:38:35 aha 19:38:56 och en norrman (oerjan) som dyker upp ibland 19:41:21 är alla svenskar? 19:41:36 AnMaster: Yay, http://zem.fi/~fis/glider.png 19:41:41 nee, typ bara vi och AnMaster 19:41:44 aha 19:41:46 how strange. I had to use "ftp http://..." to download over http 19:41:47 on this 19:41:55 that is just so completely stupid 19:42:05 olsner, Firefly too 19:42:25 (also I keep to English in order to ensure others can read it) 19:42:38 I have a feeling OS X didn't include wget by default, but had a FTP client that could speak HTTP; at least somewhere I've done ftp http://... too. 19:42:48 fizzie, thought it was BW? 19:42:59 fizzie, netbsd? 19:43:09 I don't think it was that, I haven't used NetBSD in ages. 19:43:26 AnMaster: And there's a 16-color mode too. (It asked on startup whether I want to switch to 2-color or 16-color mode.) 19:43:49 btw cfunge turns out to work better on netbsd than on openbsd 19:43:50 "genisoimage -o ../glider_4.iso -hfs --osx-double ." got me a .iso image that had the correct resource forks. 19:44:10 fizzie, heh 19:47:29 olsner, where do you know serp from btw? 19:48:14 -!- ampleyfly has joined. 19:48:22 AnMaster: from IRC 19:48:27 Deewiant, seems cfunge passes mycology on netbsd too. Apart from some minor differences for FPSP/FPDP 19:48:31 olsner, freenode? 19:48:38 from the same place as ampleyfly here, actually 19:48:41 UNDEF: E says asin(2) is 0.000000 (actually complex: NaN) 19:48:47 #c++.se on quakenet 19:48:49 I suspect bug in netbsd asin here 19:48:55 because I remember openbsd used to have the same bug 19:49:08 Now if I'd just suck less in that game, heh. 19:49:10 ampleyfly and me made a esoteric language for a course. unfortunately the report is in Swedish. some examples are on the last page: http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~jakfr986/b4ch.pdf 19:50:06 it's similair to befunge in 4 dimensions 19:50:23 * AnMaster looks 19:50:31 serp, there is already n-dimensional befunge 19:50:35 I know :) 19:50:39 well. more than 3D is uncommon but... 19:50:47 serp, so what befunge version did you use? 98? 19:51:01 it's not a befunge... we just borrowed some ideas frm there 19:51:07 serp, at university? Huh how did you get that past 19:51:27 it was for an intro course in lisp 19:51:33 vilken utbildning? 19:51:46 datateknik på LiTH 19:51:50 ah. 19:52:13 Dataingengör? Eller någon annan variant? 19:52:21 civilingenjör 19:52:23 ah 19:53:28 eget web utrymme huh 19:53:44 * AnMaster undrar om man kan få det vid örebro universitet också 19:54:01 Not providing a public_html-alike directory sounds pretty strange. 19:54:23 fizzie, well maybe they do. But since it is windows mostly where the hell would you look 19:54:40 c:\wwwroot! 19:54:57 olsner, mmm unlikely :P 19:55:13 Hrm, well, that's another thing. For the record, our place gives students a "60 MB soft-quota, 100 MB hard-quota" public_html directory at users.tkk.fi or some-such. 19:55:42 (Hm, and I have 52M in use. That's curious.) 19:56:37 PNG format screenshots from the Eurovision Song Contest and everything else that's very study-related. 19:57:20 33M of PNG files containing different graphized versions of fungot, also. :p 19:57:20 fizzie: oh well. guess that saved me. 19:57:40 fungot: Er, were you in some sort of danger, then? 19:57:41 fizzie: " oh wow this is" 19:58:03 ^style 19:58:03 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 19:58:07 mh 19:58:27 It resets to the irc style whenever it gets rebooted. 19:58:30 true 19:58:51 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:07 fizzie, png? try advpng and optipng 19:59:12 should reduce large ones 19:59:18 ^source 19:59:18 http://git.zem.fi/fungot 19:59:27 fizzie, but that is not the uni one is it? 19:59:48 No, that's my own place. 20:00:57 -!- cal153 has joined. 20:01:04 http://users.tkk.fi/~htkallas/euroviisukoodi1.png is at the university web-space. 20:01:33 They showed that bit during the Eurovision contest between-songs-nonsense-videos one year. 20:01:52 (It makes very little sense.) 20:02:08 (Also ...2.png and 3.png.) 20:03:02 fizzie, heh? 20:03:05 fizzie, seriously? 20:03:28 Yes. The "|YLE|TV2" in the corner is the logo of the local broadcast company. 20:03:55 I assume someone was just told to "write some sort of code-like stuff here". 20:03:57 fizzie, hm did it look like it was a screenshot or a photo of a screen 20:04:21 fizzie, you mean it isn't something like a bluescreen on a public display? 20:05:02 which could be explained by all those errors 20:05:05 I don't remember the surroundings; I think they showed a guy at a keyboard, then focused on the monitor showing that bit. 20:05:19 whatever it is, it isn't java 20:05:43 and that is quite a lot of whitespace 20:10:48 I like how they chose to write it in Eclipse, which highlights it all as erroneous 20:14:33 That is perfectly valid (if useless) Plof. 20:15:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:15:38 pikhq, heh? 20:15:49 pikhq, it has if go to () ? 20:15:57 (third screenshot iirc) 20:22:54 Social networking! http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock (Link courtesy of ineiros.) 20:24:30 fizzie, what version of that emulator did you use? 20:24:46 Whatever was packaged in Debian. Let's see. 20:25:04 0.9.20070407-4 according to the package. 20:25:12 hm 20:25:21 "Basilisk II V1.0 by Christian Bauer et al." according to the program itself. 20:25:28 I'm unable to find anything newer than 2005 20:25:51 err 20:25:55 newer than 2006 I meant 20:26:34 basilisk2 (0.9.20070407-1) unstable; urgency=low 20:26:34 * New upstream CVS snapshot. 20:26:34 + Bugfixes and improvements for 64bit host archs. 20:26:41 That's what it's built from. 20:26:41 hm ok 20:32:01 fizzie, what mac model id did you select in basilisk? 20:32:20 fizzie, and CPU type? 20:32:39 "Quadra 900 (MacOS 8.x)" and 68040, since those were mentioned in a howto; seemed to work. 20:32:41 AnMaster: If is a function, and go and to could be perfectly valid expressions in context. 20:33:01 Still, the third one is not valid Plof. 20:33:02 If you compiled the JIT stuff in, 68040 and enabling JIT might be a good idea too. I didn't bother; it's fast enough anyway. 20:33:12 (not without some crazy PlofBNF hacks, that is) 20:34:00 I'd have tried sheepshaver too, but no-one seems to have bothered to add that to the Debian archives, and I really don't have *any* use for it, so I can't see why to compile it from sources. 20:34:00 fizzie, hm 20:34:24 pikhq, BNF hacks? basically extending the compiler? 20:34:35 so that is cheating then 20:34:35 AnMaster: ... Yes. 20:34:46 pikhq, or can you someone define it in the code? 20:34:47 XD 20:34:50 I mean 20:34:51 Though to be fair, Plof is *designed to do that*. 20:34:58 do you need to recompile the compiler for it? 20:35:04 No. 20:35:15 ouch 20:35:23 fizzie, what about the RAM size? 20:35:37 * AnMaster guesses 512 could be too much 20:35:40 AnMaster: 64 megs should be enough for everyone. (I think that was visible in my screenshot too.) 20:35:48 The grammer of Plof is defined inside of a Plof file. 20:36:12 (well, using a bootstrap grammer defined in bytecode) 20:37:34 fizzie link to the tutorial? 20:37:58 AnMaster: If I can find the browser tab. 20:38:05 fizzie, history? 20:38:11 anyway I'm rather confused now 20:40:02 AnMaster: http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/68kEmulator -- but it's pretty windows-oriented and I think at some parts also contradictory. I just adapted a bit. (Substituted that existing macboot.img for the whole stuffit+floppy-writing nonsense, and hfsutils command-line tools for HFVExplorer.) 20:40:25 fizzie, where do I put in the floppy image to use 20:40:45 fizzie, this system lacks a real floppy drive 20:40:45 ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs "floppy /path/to/image" 20:40:55 Same here. 20:41:17 The configuration dialogs for the X version are a bit limited. 20:41:42 very much 20:41:48 Alternatively run it with "BasiliskII --floppy /path/to" for a one-time use. 20:41:50 fizzie, and cd? 20:42:00 "cdrom", but do you need that for something? 20:42:10 hm 20:42:11 I needed it for the Glider 4 image only. :p 20:42:40 fizzie, what about the shared with unix thingy? 20:42:59 That's what the config dialog calls "Unix Root" in the Volumes tab. 20:43:10 "extfs" in the config file. 20:43:25 hm 20:43:33 why doesn't that show up from the floppy 20:43:34 or, 20:43:40 how do I get the OS image there 20:43:43 for system 7 20:43:51 The floppy doesn't have that FSM 1.2 thing for the shared-drive. 20:43:58 You need to copy the .smi and .part files to your HD image. 20:44:19 fizzie, formatting it first with HFS+? 20:44:22 or plain HFS? 20:44:42 Plain HFS, if you're running System 7. But you can format it by booting from the floppy. 20:44:50 It'll automagically suggest formatting the disk. 20:44:58 I guess hfsutils has a format tool too, though. 20:45:18 (You can create an image file with dd, or in the BasiliskII configuration dialog.) 20:45:23 fizzie, removing the binhex thingy? 20:45:34 fizzie, figured out how to create the HD no issue 20:46:01 You get rid of the MacBinary encoding (it's .bin, not .hqx) when copying files from Unix to the HFS image with hfsutils. 20:46:33 Something like hmount + hmkdir inst + hcopy -m .../*.bin :inst + humount. 20:46:35 fizzie, hcopy? 20:46:54 hm 20:47:01 oh that needs root? 20:47:04 or what 20:47:08 It shouldn't. 20:47:25 where does it store the state 20:47:29 It's a bit mtools-like (or CVS "login" like) in that it maintains a "current volume and directory" in ~/.hcwd. 20:48:02 Actually I'm not sure whether mtools does that, maybe not. 20:48:04 hcopy: "System_7.5.3_19of19.part.bin": not a directory 20:48:05 eh 20:48:13 You need the destination path too. 20:48:13 "hcopy -m .../*.bin" seems wrong 20:48:16 oh 20:48:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:48:20 : or :inst or something. 20:48:33 (":" for current-directory, ":inst" if you hmkdir'd a place for the files.) 20:48:38 hm 20:49:08 fizzie, and then just the installers from Mac HD? 20:49:22 the tutorial talks about copying the system dir 20:49:24 is that needed 20:49:37 I don't think so; I think the installer will create one. 20:49:40 But you can if you want. 20:50:11 I did, but really, I don't think it matters much. 20:51:29 In both cases you should be able to just run the .smi file on the HD, and then the "Install System software" app from the virtual CD it mounts on the desktop. 20:52:33 I also did a Custom Install with some pseudo-sensible software selections, even though the tutorial warns that the 7.5.5 update won't work with it; I'm not that interested in the update anyway. 20:53:13 fizzie, yay finally I found a use for 4 GB RAM. ATM FreeBSD, NetBSD VMs are running. And this Basilisk II 20:53:28 both the *BSD VMs are heavily loaded 20:53:31 wow that was a quick install 20:53:49 System 7.5.3 shutdown and startup are horribly quick too. 20:54:06 fizzie, on modern hardware yes 20:54:24 Also haven't tried networking yet. It needs a silly custom kernel module for "share a physical Ethernet device" networking, but ethertap virtual-networking might work without that too. 20:54:56 I'm a bit suspicious to whether that works any more, if they haven't updated it since 2007. 20:55:07 fizzie, oh now I get a "unimplemented trap" error 20:55:08 heh 20:56:42 Might be some extension, perhaps; the tutorial notes that "A/Rose under Networking and Extensions" is incompatible with Basilisk. 20:57:36 fizzie, 1024x600 . I wonder what sort of wide screen that is 20:57:57 fizzie, indeed. Missed that 20:58:04 removing the extension solved it 20:58:05 I've been running it with the classic 512x384 screen. 20:58:42 fizzie, too small on a high dpi screen 20:58:46 too small anyway 20:58:47 but meh 20:59:53 Could maybe play around with the networking, but there aren't *that* many interesting 68k-mac Interwebby programs. iCab 2.9.9, IE 3.something, Netscape 3 as far as browsers go. 21:00:38 ooh that puzzle 21:00:44 fizzie, does this os have apple script? 21:00:56 seems not 21:01:02 oh wait 21:01:03 it does 21:01:04 yay 21:01:10 There were some AppleScript-related things in the installer, yes. 21:01:32 yeah 21:01:49 fizzie, I wonder if I could get norton speeddisk the defragment thing to run on this 21:01:51 oh wait no 21:01:53 it was PPC 21:02:07 fizzie, that iso of the game you mentioned. Where? 21:02:20 it seemed too messy. surely you could share? 21:02:32 since it was released without charge now 21:03:20 http://zem.fi/~fis/glider_4.iso possibly. I guess you could run BasiliskII as "BasiliskII --cdrom /path/to/glider_4.iso" for a one-time copy-to-HD use. 21:04:02 fizzie, that is one SMALL iso 21:04:20 but took 20 seconds to download 21:04:26 96 KB/s 21:04:31 your connection sucks? 21:04:39 Outgoing speed, sure. 21:04:49 That's what consumer ADSL is like, you know. 21:04:52 fizzie, btw those --floppy and --cdrom seems to be saved 21:05:04 Right, I wondered about that. 21:06:13 fizzie, what keys to rebuild desktop sort of thing? 21:06:20 It's 1 Mbps outwards; theoretically that should get something like 122 kB/s at most. 21:07:13 Don't know about that. 21:08:06 I don't even quite know how it maps command/option to ctrl/alt. (Probably just like that.) 21:08:55 "On PC-style keyboards, "Alt" is the Mac "Command" key, while the "Windows" key is the Mac "Option" key.". Well, that's what the README says. It might not work out like that. 21:09:12 fizzie, hm 21:09:30 fizzie, what was it on macs? 21:09:32 I forgot 21:09:39 Alt-Command? 21:10:03 Command-option during booting or something. 21:10:15 There might've been some messing-around with extensions though. 21:10:21 The interwebs probably know more than me. 21:31:05 -!- scorchsaber has joined. 21:31:53 -!- scorchsaber has left (?). 21:39:56 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:44:10 fizzie, did you manage to get that system 7.5.5 update to work? 21:44:19 Didn't try. 21:44:29 fizzie, makes disk image unbootable for me 21:44:33 Not needed for Glider 4. :p 21:44:45 Did you do the Easy Install thing? 21:45:02 fizzie, custom install 21:55:51 Well, then. 21:56:05 The tutorial does say that only Easy Install works with the 7.5.5 update. 21:58:27 ah 21:58:30 missed that 22:12:43 night 23:14:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:31:25 -!- madbrain has joined. 23:55:37 -!- coppro has joined. 23:57:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 2009-11-03: 00:09:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:10:28 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:10:37 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:11:46 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:14:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:15:34 I just saw a glimpse of the AW SDK, and I'm horrified 00:15:47 Maybe I'm not seeing something here, but the http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Aw_object_click#Usage makes my eyes bleed 00:16:02 -!- cal153 has joined. 00:16:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:23:31 -!- Jerry has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:23:44 -!- Cerise has joined. 00:24:12 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Guest90640. 00:27:28 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:41:16 -!- augur has joined. 01:19:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:21:53 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:06:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 02:20:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:09:04 -!- augur has changed nick to Hofstadter. 03:09:12 -!- Hofstadter has changed nick to AUGUR. 03:09:34 -!- AUGUR has changed nick to augur. 03:17:40 -!- Oranjer has joined. 04:10:55 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:17:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:43:07 xkcd has contributed no funny to the world today 04:43:16 but it HAS contributed a wonderful data visualization technique 04:43:17 http://infosthetics.com/archives/2009/11/visualizing_movie_characters.html#comments 04:43:50 yes, I saw that 04:44:00 dammit, I thought of that like, two days before 04:44:01 meh 04:44:19 did you follow up your thought by drawing it out and posting it to your webcomic? 04:44:27 ARE YOU RANDALL MONROE?! 04:44:30 :O 04:44:32 nope! 04:44:42 :| 04:44:51 Why has sourceforge gotten so bad 04:44:52 also, I suspect he at least takes more than two days to do each webcomic? maybe? 04:45:10 http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/timelines/ 04:45:11 WAT 04:45:33 one would hpe it does not take more than two days to do the comics 04:45:39 seeing a show theyre released every two days! 04:45:44 augur: EXCEPT HE USE MOVIE LOTR AND NOT THE NOVEL 04:46:09 ouch, coppro 04:46:22 coppro: shut up 04:46:25 how do you even know 04:46:25 :| 04:46:32 augur: Saruman dies in Isengard 04:46:40 huh 04:46:53 in the book, he goes to the Shire 04:47:30 ok 04:47:31 well 04:47:36 i have not read the book 04:47:38 so i dont care 04:47:41 wtf 04:47:56 (s) 04:47:58 cardinal sin of eekery 04:48:03 +g 04:48:28 yawn 04:48:31 like i care 04:48:35 I have only read The Hobbit 04:48:41 my reading is limited to non-fiction 04:48:49 I also forgot to return that book to the library, several years ago 04:48:51 oops! 04:48:52 i cant stay interested in fiction writing 04:49:06 not a cardinal sin, then, but still bad 04:49:09 also, augur, I've had trouble reading fiction lately 04:50:49 anyway, I have to go to sleep 04:50:50 see ya 04:51:20 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:14:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:07:52 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:44:52 * Warrigal ponders how to compile Unlambda. 06:45:08 To compile Unlambda, one must first compile to Unlambda. 06:45:44 you could try in lua 06:46:01 lua has a function that compiles a program from a string 06:46:20 so translate the unlambda program into lua and run that 06:46:53 Neh. 06:49:25 who not 06:49:28 why not 06:50:22 I want to compile it into a language into which it is not that easy to compile stuff like Unlambda. 06:50:43 I think I want to compile between Unlambda and BF. 06:52:17 Then again, I'd rather come up with some languages that can actually be compiled nicely. 06:56:01 BD in unlamda sounds feasible 06:56:18 unlambda in bf sounds pretty damn hard though :D 06:56:44 Hmm, the esolangs Wikipedia has articles about are LOLCODE, Befunge, Brainfuck, Chef, FALSE, the OISC gang, Piet, Shakespeare, Whitespace, INTERCAL, and Taxi. 06:56:45 it involves, what, tail call recursion, garbage collecting 06:57:20 very variable size data 06:59:46 I'm going to ignore all of those but Befunge, Brainfuck, FALSE, and OISC. 07:00:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:01:21 unlambda is my favorite by far 07:01:43 followed by brainfuck probably 07:02:28 Then I'm going to add /// and Unlambda. 07:02:37 Then I'm going to toss FALSE. 07:05:05 Then I'm going to refine OISC into Subleq. 07:05:49 what about rule 110 automata 07:06:13 I'll do that later. 07:06:28 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:07:13 -!- Pthing has joined. 07:08:30 So that makes the list Befunge, Brainfuck, Subleq, ///, Unlambda. A fun bunch. 07:22:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:23:24 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:32:42 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:43 -!- adam_d has joined. 08:22:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:43:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:01:48 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 10:36:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:39:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:44:17 ugh, this website has the stupidest validation ever 10:45:02 basically, every letter you type in the forms, it sends off an AJAX request to the server to verify what you wrote 10:45:22 even more fun, if you type more than a few characters in a second, it thinks you're trying to DOS it with all those AJAX requests 10:45:57 also, it doesn't allow punctuation marks at all 10:46:11 even in textboxes where you'd expect them to be used, such as "how did you hear about us" 10:46:38 ais523, why answer the form then? 10:46:42 and/or what website? 10:46:48 AnMaster: trying to create an account, and opencores.org 10:47:05 what is that website about? 10:47:10 AnMaster: open-source hardware 10:47:19 I see. File a bug report about the web form then 10:47:51 if it is open source I would expect them to not just ignore it 10:47:51 AnMaster: nowhere obvious to file it, there isn't even an obvious contact address 10:47:57 hm 10:48:11 the website doesn't /act/ open-source 10:48:21 http://opencores.org/opencores,contact ? 10:48:23 I think it's made by people used to closed hardware support that don't get open source 10:48:34 ah hm 10:48:44 ais523, large company behind it? 10:48:47 oh, their FAQ is GPL 10:48:53 so almost certainly, they don't really get what they're doing 10:48:59 haha indeed 10:49:06 ais523, why create an account then? 10:49:15 IIRC you need one to download from it 10:49:21 their account-creation system isn't even automated 10:49:24 it seems it was sent off to a human 10:49:38 gah, this FAQ is unusable 10:49:46 it shows the answers to the questions on-hover 10:50:03 ais523, yes and it does that even with js turned off 10:50:05 which means that when you stop using one question and have a look at the next, the question moves so it's no longer under your mouse and collapses again 10:50:07 which means they used css for it 10:50:23 this place is like a mix of best practices and worst practices... 10:50:32 ais523, best in what way? 10:50:53 AnMaster: things like graceful fallback for no JS 10:50:59 oh good point 10:51:07 "OpenCores reserves the right to charge for advertising or SPAM sent to any mailing list" 10:51:07 * AnMaster tries lynx 10:51:48 well. not very good in lynx. But the menu looks ok 10:51:56 too little spacing between headers though 10:52:06 like no blank line between paragraphs 10:52:16 ais523, of their own lists I assume 10:52:21 they didn't say that 10:52:23 but hm. How strange 10:52:27 I'm more amused at the naivety of it all 10:53:34 well. I have to leave soon. To take the bus. Test in discrete math this afternoon. 10:53:39 hm was that the right word 10:53:42 "discrete" I mean 10:53:57 ais523, ^ 10:54:13 yes, probably 10:54:15 there are two words in English that are very similar, but the same word in Swedish 10:54:20 "discrete" = opposite of continuous 10:54:25 ais523, indeed 10:54:29 "discreet" = without causing a fuss about it 10:54:33 right 10:54:45 ais523, same word for both in Swedish + very similar in English 10:55:00 I'm sure you can understand my confusion about the terminology in English 10:55:55 bye. 11:00:10 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:46:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:47:36 20:43:07 xkcd has contributed no funny to the world today 12:47:36 20:43:16 but it HAS contributed a wonderful data visualization technique 12:48:03 http://xkcd.com 12:48:04 that was about my thought too - i was annoyed there was no way to zoom in :D 12:48:16 * ais523 is too lazy to actually focus a web browser to go there 12:48:20 and clicks on a link in IRC instead 12:48:54 i am assuming this was actually yesterday's xkcd - checking now 12:50:18 oh now there is a zoom 12:52:08 There was a zoom yesterday too; at least yesterday our time zone, maybe not when you visited it. 12:52:23 hm maybe i managed somehow to miss it 12:52:51 657 is pretty impressive 12:52:55 i may have been confused by the hover text 12:52:56 And, well; when the title is "Movie Narrative Charts", you can't really complain that much about using the movie LOTR. 12:57:00 the funny is the ones at the bottom right, I think 12:59:32 The labels in the Jurassic Park graphs did make me smile; especially the "must go faster" one. It is very evocative of the scene. 13:32:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:45:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 14:18:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:25:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:43:07 -!- Pthing has joined. 14:47:43 You dont have permissions to view this page. You might need to login or your account might be disabled. 14:47:47 nice ambiguous sentence, there 14:56:13 even more fun, someone's storing tarballs (well, .zip files) in svn, rather than the original files 14:56:16 anyway, lecture time 15:11:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 15:22:27 -!- augur has joined. 15:28:24 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:33:17 left the lecture halfway through, it was that bad 15:33:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:33:28 well, 10 seconds before halfway, I didn't quite time it correctly 15:35:07 http://abc.go.com/shows/v/ 15:35:12 i wish this would just happen already 15:50:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:06:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:10:23 -!- Pthing has joined. 16:13:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:49:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:49:42 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:13:26 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:15:14 -!- fax has joined. 17:31:15 augur, there is a way to zoom in. click the image 17:51:04 -!- Azstal has joined. 17:52:20 -!- Guest90640 has changed nick to Cerise. 17:52:40 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 17:53:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:04:23 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 18:07:27 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:07:34 -!- Asztal_ has changed nick to Asztal. 18:08:44 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:10:32 anmaster: i didnt say that. 18:10:57 oh indeed. oerjan had stopped quoting at that point 18:11:00 sorry didn't notice 18:12:20 -!- Asztal^_^ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:21:55 :P 18:21:58 sillyboy 18:41:01 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:44:16 hm 18:48:29 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:51:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:51:55 Gregor, what was the name of that chroot thing you used? 18:56:22 [0x7f6e0c0081b8] v4l2 demux error: cannot open video device '/dev/video1' (No space left on device) 18:56:22 That's a bit strange error from a video device. (I'm sure it has some sort of silly meaning, but anyway.) 18:56:40 heh 18:59:10 woah, that was really strange 18:59:20 most of the applications I have segfaulted, then the kernel paniced 18:59:28 and the syslog is in the wrong format and talks about a Trojan 18:59:31 * ais523_ runs a virus scan 19:00:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:00:30 ais523_, on nix? 19:00:32 hm 19:00:38 on Linux, yes 19:00:40 ohci_hcd 0000:00:12.1: leak ed ffff8800378152d0 (#81) state 2 19:00:40 usb 4-2: usb_submit_urb() failed, error -28 19:00:40 It seems to be usb_submit_urb that returns ENOSPC. Don't know why. 19:00:40 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 19:00:45 ais523, a trojan? 19:00:50 ais523, what exactly 19:01:08 ais523, and time for clean reinstall + restore files you can verify by hand from backups 19:01:15 350720:6cfac1d7dfe66763441977dc8bcaf41c:Trojan.Agent-116143 19:01:25 no, that isn't the format syslog /should/ be in 19:01:30 I think an actual trojan is unlikely 19:01:33 indeed 19:01:37 one thing I'm wondering about is ClamAV going mad 19:01:44 and accidentally dumping part of its virus database into memory 19:01:53 and causing a panic, and that bit ended up getting saved to syslog 19:02:04 ais523, but what about all those other apps? 19:03:14 let me paste the relevant pastebin section 19:03:51 http://pastebin.ca/1655187 19:04:04 atm, I'm grepping the entire hard drive for "Trojan.Agent-", and also doing a virus scan 19:04:11 *the relevant syslog section 19:05:21 my /theory/ is that ClamAV's virus database contains a line that looks like that, and that it somehow got dumped to sylog 19:05:44 It's nice to have two drivers for this webcam (sn9c102 and gspca_sonixj) of which only one works. Should make some rules to prioritize the working one in module-autoloading. 19:05:52 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 19:06:16 ais523, I would also run memtest btw 19:06:25 I did a while back 19:06:30 ais523, again I mean. 19:06:33 and a few bitflips are unlikely to cause /that/ 19:06:41 ais523, kernel messed up big I suspect 19:06:41 I think software bugs are more likely 19:06:49 AnMaster: same here 19:07:04 ais523, should try to reproduce and file a bug report 19:07:10 actually, it's even possible that the offending lines were added to the syslog by fsck 19:07:12 any kernel crash dump file? 19:07:17 AnMaster: where would it be? 19:07:32 ais523, eh wait, fsck had to fix something that bad? 19:07:33 uh uh 19:07:39 it ran after I restarted it 19:07:46 and cleaned up loads of inodes 19:07:50 ais523, I would run, from a cd, some verifier tool 19:07:57 heh, what if the ext3 journal got corrupted? 19:08:02 to check that all packages have correct md5sum 19:08:07 ais523, see suggestion above 19:08:09 livecd. Now 19:08:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:08:32 ais523, also use smartctl in case disk is dying 19:08:37 don't have a relatively recent one on me 19:09:09 ais523, an older one could work. Point is, something that you can run a tool like debsums on (iirc you use a debian based distro? 19:09:45 Palimpsest says the disk is fine 19:09:55 Palimpsest? 19:10:05 GUI SMART-parameter extractor thing 19:10:40 ais523, manually check the error log 19:10:47 smartctl -l error /dev/sda 19:10:47 which one? 19:10:49 or whatever 19:11:06 also look at -A (attributes) 19:11:09 I don't have smartctl installed 19:11:09 and -l selftest 19:11:19 ais523, how would this Palimpsest read things then 19:11:27 same way smartctl does, presumably 19:11:32 hm 19:11:42 ais523, well look at the SMART error log and such 19:11:47 I assume your tool can 19:11:50 never used it 19:12:31 doesn't seem to have an option to 19:14:45 ais523, sounds like a shit tool 19:15:00 well, it was on here as part of the default distribution 19:15:09 I think it's mostly meant for setting up RAIDs and fscking drives and so on 19:16:32 cp /dev/urandom /tmp/chroot/dev 19:16:37 you would think that would work 19:16:38 but no 19:16:44 cp doesn't copy the special file 19:16:58 result is: 19:17:02 (same as) 19:17:12 cat /dev/urandom > /tmp/chroot/dev/urandom 19:19:19 you can use ls -l and mknod to do the same thing 19:19:34 * ais523 wonders if mknod can be used to escape from a chroot if you have root 19:19:55 ais523, yes but more work 19:20:19 ais523, just trying to get su to work inside the chroot 19:20:27 so I can drop privs in there and run the thing I need 19:20:33 why does su need /dev/urandom? 19:20:46 ais523, I think it is the dynamic linker that does. 19:20:52 heap randomisation or something is my guess 19:21:03 it happens before several mprotect calls 19:21:06 early on 19:21:09 according to strace 19:21:32 which exact addresses varies 19:25:45 su: Module is unknown 19:25:46 hm 19:28:08 ais523, argh ubuntu: su wants dbus (indirectly) 19:28:12 or rather, a pam module does 19:30:44 PAM makes things complex. Hooray. 19:32:16 # chroot /opt/chroot /bin/su foo 19:32:16 Password: 19:32:16 bash-3.2$ su - 19:32:16 su: must be run from a terminal 19:32:20 two odd things 19:32:26 1) it asked root for password 19:32:38 2) it wanted to be run from a terminal the second time only 19:32:49 just did that to test. su isn't suid in there 19:36:26 * AnMaster did that to run unstuff with no harm 19:36:32 basically I don't trust that thing one bit 19:36:40 oh yeah this was in a VM on top of it 19:38:00 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:40:40 what's unstuff? 19:46:23 ais523, for working with *.sit 19:46:27 it's closed source 19:46:40 only option there is on *nix though for recent versions of the file format 19:46:51 oh and *.sit is used on macs. mostly pre-OS X 19:55:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:57:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:58:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:03:33 fizzie, I got sheepshaver to boot as far as install cd for OS 9 at least 20:04:34 fizzie, for some reason the disk still get the OS 7 look for the icon 20:04:36 very strange 20:04:42 and no it wasn't formatted there 20:05:09 argh the cd tells me it can't be used with this computer :/ 20:10:49 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 20:12:14 well lets see if the 8.6 CD works 20:23:50 Annoying. There's this composite-video (and mono-audio) "AV cable" for my camera, but the video output seems to be enabled only in playback mode. I could've used it as a much-better-sensor webcam; even blurry composite-video PAL is better than the horrible far-too-dark cheapo webcam otherwise. 20:24:50 The manual says "Even if you set [VIDEO OUT] to [PAL], the output signal will still be NTSC in the recording mode", which sounds like there should be something going out in the other mode too, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 20:29:13 fizzie, you mean there is no signal at all in the recording mode? 20:29:36 even though manual says there will be? 20:29:40 huh 20:30:02 fizzie, idea: use it, then a web cam on the LCD screen preview XD 20:30:48 Well, the manual doesn't exactly say it very clearly, just that one sentence sort of implies it. On the other hand, when it talks about the TV out settings there's a "[playback mode only]" tag in those parts. 20:37:48 I guess they could be using some of the same DSP bits for both showing the moving preview picture on the LCD as well as doing the TV out video signal generation. At least I hope there's a sensible explanation like that; it would be pretty silly if it were just a completely unnecessary programmatic limitation, added in hopes of getting people to buy dedicated video cameras instead. 20:39:18 fizzie, I think the latter is more probable 20:39:31 "Meh." 20:40:31 (I'm trying to set up some sort of video recording thing to see whether the cat does anything else than sleeping during the day when we're both at work.) 20:43:44 okay.. seems "couldn't be installed on this computer" meant "do not emulate so much ram" 20:43:45 XD 20:54:43 fizzie, installing OS 9 sure is a lot slower than installing OS 7 20:54:59 btw OS 9 cd did boot on 16 MB RAM but then refused to install 20:55:06 512 MB was the upper limit 21:03:31 Half a gigabyte is quite a lot. 21:46:44 fizzie, hah 21:46:53 fizzie, oh and... sheepshaver is buggy 21:46:55 very much 21:46:58 crashes a lot 21:53:21 I'm not sure there are very many alternatives. Rosetta is OS X -only and doesn't run the Classic environment anyway, PearPC doesn't emulate the necessary powermac bits, and I guess qemu's not very complete either, though it does have some powermac peripherals. (At least I can't find many references to running Mac OS with qemu-system-ppc.) 21:53:35 SheepShaver might work better on a powerpc arch, though. 21:55:20 (Though on Linux/PPC you could just run Mac-on-Linux.) 21:56:02 fizzie, "mac on linux"? 21:56:17 Yes. 21:56:22 http://mac-on-linux.sourceforge.net/, you know. 21:56:30 It's a bit dead nowadays. 21:57:04 Runs Linux/PPC, Mac OS X or Mac OS 7.5.2 - 9.2.2 on a Linux/PPC host. 21:57:40 But it doesn't do PowerPC emulation at all, so you can't run it on an Intel box, so I guess people have lost interest after Apple did the Intel switch. 21:58:19 I tried it on that Performa, actually, and it seemed to work reasonably well. Haven't tried on the iBook, though. 21:59:06 ooh I found a cd with norton utilities for mac 21:59:19 there is no "symantec" mentioned there 21:59:27 so old 21:59:40 oh and it has some disk checker and some disk defrag apps iirc 22:04:19 gah can't get it to boot from a cd now :/ 22:04:26 just completely unable to 22:04:32 well the OS is installed 22:04:36 can't complain too much 22:07:17 fizzie, it mostly seems that it is mostly stable when you mostly don't access that "Unix" thing 22:18:09 If you could manage to get qemu-user to work, then you could do the MISC binary format support thing and get PPC binary emulation going... 22:18:28 pikhq, so you can run mac binaries there? 22:18:36 as in, old mac games 22:18:37 and such 22:18:43 that is what I'm interested in 22:18:46 AnMaster: Ah. 22:19:00 How old? 22:19:08 pikhq, new enough to be PPC only 22:19:17 PearPC? 22:19:24 pikhq, would need classic still 22:19:32 since it is PPC classic that is relevant here 22:19:35 Mmm... 22:19:38 pikhq, Ever played avernum? 22:19:44 or possibly exile 22:19:54 Freaking tricky. 22:20:00 pikhq, avernum? 22:20:04 Nope. 22:20:04 or something else? 22:20:06 ah 22:20:15 pikhq, what is "freaking tricky" then? 22:20:24 qemu-user-ppc and Mac-on-Linux is the only way I can think of to do it... 22:20:37 well.. sheepshaver kind of works 22:20:40 AnMaster: Run PPC non-Unix Mac binaries. 22:20:40 just very unstable 22:20:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:21:12 * AnMaster looks for a copy of MPW 22:21:25 http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ 22:21:26 ooh look 22:23:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:24:33 fucking slow download though 22:24:34 sigh 22:24:51 Oh yes, those have been released quite a while ago. 22:25:16 I had them installed on the Performa, for example (I *do* keep talking about it, but it's your fault really); you get a reasonably shell-like thing with it. 22:25:36 And a Make-alike, IIRC. 22:26:16 Yes, that too. 22:29:29 -!- Oranjer has joined. 22:30:45 fizzie, true 22:30:51 as for rasonably 22:30:51 what 22:30:55 reasonably* 22:31:00 well could be debated 22:31:03 Oranjer, see logs 22:31:06 link is in /topic 22:31:11 oh 22:31:28 Oranjer, please please stop saying "what" or such as often 22:31:35 sorry 22:31:59 fizzie, I completely forgot how it worked though 22:32:50 fizzie, I do keep wondering why ftp downloads from apple.com are running at around 30 K/s 22:32:51 irritating 22:35:19 wow at 40 K/s now 22:38:50 fizzie, any luck with networking in it? 22:45:40 -!- adam_d has joined. 22:47:52 ffs. 22:48:04 now apple's ftp is messing up sometimes wanting login 22:48:07 and working randomly 22:50:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:50:56 -!- augur has joined. 22:51:52 AnMaster: debsums did find one file (and its manpage) that was wrong, but it was pdftoppm, in poppler-utils 22:51:55 reinstalled, anyway 22:52:14 the manpage looked normal, so I think the wrong version got installed somehow 22:57:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:07:15 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 23:16:20 -!- Oranjer has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:16:25 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 23:23:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:25:00 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:27:06 -!- cal153 has joined. 23:27:32 -!- coppro has joined. 23:47:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2009-11-04: 00:34:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:04:44 AnMaster: plash 01:15:43 http://codu.org:2888/ 01:42:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:42:28 I surrender 01:42:32 int aw_create (char* universe_domain, int universe_port, void** instance) 01:42:53 The AW SDK wants me to use a void pointer to refer to "instances" (not the OOP meaning) of bots 01:43:20 http://www.activeworlds.com/sdk/multiple.htm 01:44:21 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 01:45:38 -!- Oranjer1 has left (?). 01:51:31 Gregor: http://codu.org:2888/wiki/list -- just added :) 01:51:55 Schweet :) 01:52:08 It even works! :P 01:52:14 ofc 01:52:45 The next step would be to write a wikicode "interpreter", so that standard wiki pages can be made without ripping ones brains out. 01:54:15 it has perl :P 01:54:23 And python. 01:54:24 and php 01:54:41 (I just made a small improvement to the "new page" thingy) 01:59:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:01:33 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:12:43 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 02:40:31 Did somebody in here make wikify? 02:43:49 I am editing it 02:43:58 Ah, OK. 02:44:02 Just wondering where it came from. 02:44:04 Awesomesauce. 02:45:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("SPOING"). 02:48:13 Only resolves wiki links [[pagename title]] and converts linbreaks to
for now. http://codu.org:2888/wiki/wikify/foo 02:49:47 Schweet. 02:49:54 Can you make it ignore chebang lines? 02:50:05 Then it can be made the chebang line of a file :) 02:52:42 done 02:53:01 Hooplah. 02:53:45 OK, so it has a few minor problems ^^ 02:54:04 See http://codu.org:2888/wiki/wikitest 02:54:15 I can probably fix these, will just have to remember some Python is all :) 02:56:50 Gregor: If not, you could make it into an executable format. 02:57:00 MizardX: Yeah, that chebang line won't work :P 02:57:37 So, multi-level shebang scripts isn't allowed? 02:57:48 MizardX: It is allowed, but chebang lines have to start with / 02:57:59 Hence why I did /usr/bin/env wikify 03:00:45 hmf... I did make wikify make links using itself 03:01:36 That's ... not ideal? :P I think I'd prefer chebangs to be the standard mechanism. Idonno *shrugs* 03:05:14 I guess it doesn't matter, the whole idea is everybody can hack Hackiki to do whatever they want :P 03:06:47 The only issue with that is that then when you're in wikify, you're sort of trapped, you can't have some wiki pages use wikify and some not. 03:06:52 (Not easily anyway) 03:11:15 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 03:12:34 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 03:13:58 * pikhq notes that Plash is awesome. 03:14:06 what is Plash 03:14:22 http://plash.beasts.org/wiki/ 03:14:59 * Sgeo notes that the AW SDK makes him want to shoot himself 03:48:06 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:17:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:23:47 I want to make a Hackiki-crawling script and put it on Hackiki. 04:25:14 Then do so? 04:27:00 I imagine I will. 04:27:25 * Warrigal decides that his current big project is not more important. 04:28:21 Hackiki already confuses me 04:33:18 Is it just me or are two of us editing wikitest? :P 04:33:52 I added an extra pair of [ ] 04:33:58 and | 04:34:20 I actually put the wikifying engine in /hackiki/libexec/wiki (which doesn't work right now for some reason) 04:34:26 So right now it's borkulous. 04:35:09 It worked when I tried it. 04:35:42 /hackiki/libexec/wiki: error while loading shared libraries: /hackiki/libexec/wiki: invalid ELF header 04:36:02 #!/usr/bin/env .wiki <-- that worked when I tried it 04:36:14 Yeah, but I just moved that to /hackiki/libexec/wiki :P 04:36:24 ha 04:36:29 OK, I'll move it back, then I'll stop poking at it. 04:36:32 I just accidentally clicked #!/usr/bin/env 04:36:36 turns out it's a registered channel 04:37:11 lawl 04:37:33 *done* 04:37:40 MizardX: Poke away, I am no longer poking :P 04:44:18 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 04:44:51 I didn't actually stop poking. 04:44:54 I'm a jerk like that. 04:44:57 NOW I'm done poking :P 04:50:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:58:56 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:07:50 -!- augur has joined. 05:07:53 There. http://codu.org:2888/wiki/index 05:09:00 oh... shortcut typo 05:09:20 It ... seems to be hanging for me ... unless my tuberwebs are just slow. 05:11:10 It's a good thing when kswapd0 is taking up 100% CPU, right? :P 05:14:08 Not sure what to make of this swap thrashing ... 05:14:17 Especially since nothing's using much memory. 05:15:09 What would happen if you restarted kswapd0? 05:15:31 Would the whole system crash? 05:15:39 Probably. Not something I'm willing to do :P 05:16:33 Oh, maybe it's because my backup script is running right now and rsyncing all of codu! :P 05:17:31 maybe 05:17:41 but that sounds like a preposterous theory 05:17:47 I suggest a virus 05:18:16 Damn, somebody already hacked a virus into Hackiki. 05:18:19 probably some strain of H1N1 05:18:23 Welp, looks like I'll have to take down codu entirely. 05:18:29 As I see all this ridiculousness on "t3h homosexuals" in Maine and Washington, I must admit: Canada is very, very tempting. 05:19:03 t3h homosexuals, eh. 05:19:08 pikhq: Canada! Where homosexual rights were inadvertantly enshrined in our constitution 27 years ago - that's how forward-thinking we are! 05:19:14 * MizardX falls asleep 05:19:15 coppro: :D 05:19:47 Gregor: Stupid stupid shit like "The country of Scandinavia legalised gay marriage in 2004 -- suicide rates skyrocketed!" 05:20:10 "country of Scandinavia"... 05:20:18 (note: Scandinavia is not a country, no country in Scandinavia legalised gay marriage in 2004, and suicide rates did not skyrocket in 2004 in Scandinavia) 05:20:22 The proper name is, of course, Scandinaviland. 05:20:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:27:07 Damn, still slow. 05:27:10 Not sure what's going on. 05:27:15 Mayhaps it's not me though :P 05:27:35 Oh look, now it's fast. 05:27:36 Weird. 05:36:36 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:42:43 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:42:59 -!- HackEgo has joined. 05:44:14 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:44:19 -!- EgoBot has joined. 05:44:34 -!- fungot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:44:55 -!- fungot has joined. 05:46:56 -!- coppro has joined. 06:26:09 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:48:16 -!- Pthing has joined. 06:58:44 MizardX: Our difference of opinions w.r.t the .wiki script, crystallized: I want wiki pages to always be files in bin/, which has the caveat that all wiki pages that are conventional wiki pages are just scripts using bin/.wiki as a chebang line. I keep on changing .wiki to work that way, and you keep on changing .wiki to work under the assumption that wiki pages that use wiki syntax won't be in bin at all :P 07:09:37 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:37:31 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 08:38:44 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:39:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:48:53 -!- adam_d has joined. 09:21:36 http://codu.org:2888/ <-- hah 09:23:43 Gregor, the wikify thing is gone? 09:28:18 fizzie, btw got keymappings to work ok in Basilisk or sheepshaver? 09:28:40 fizzie, I tried US, UK and Swedish but none of them match what I would expect 09:29:28 as in, neither matches what it says on the key caps, what it is on a real mac or what that key caps app under the apple menu says it should be 09:30:09 fizzie, oh and depending on if I use the local keyboard or synergy it differs in different ways 09:58:27 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:58:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:02:00 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:02:28 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:03:50 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:04:18 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:05:40 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:06:08 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:09:02 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:09:29 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:10:52 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:11:19 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:12:42 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:13:09 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:14:25 -!- ampleyfly has left (?). 10:16:17 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:16:44 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:18:07 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:18:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:21:42 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:22:09 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:23:32 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:23:59 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:25:22 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:25:49 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:27:12 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:27:39 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:29:02 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:29:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:30:52 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:31:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:32:45 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:33:28 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:36:44 I don't think I used any other keys except alphabetics and "," or "." yet, so no idea about keymappings. 10:36:47 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:37:13 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:38:14 Today's lecture session at 12:15 had been canceled, and notice emails were sent at 10:30. That was a bit of a short notice thing. 10:40:25 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:41:04 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:44:15 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:44:15 fizzie, agreed 10:44:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:45:37 I for one sat 20 minutes in the classroom waiting for other people because I had to run there from another thing and didn't have time for mail-checkery between. 10:46:31 fizzie, btw. I just found an old VirtualPC cd for mac 10:46:48 however, I think it would be rather sane to use that to run linux under sheepshaver 10:46:51 XD 10:48:03 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:48:30 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:49:53 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:50:00 Misread something about the undead. 10:50:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:50:47 fizzie, eh? 10:51:06 s/sane/insane/ btw 10:51:07 I'm not sure what. Something about undead sheep-shavers. Sounds bizarre. 10:51:15 hah 10:51:17 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:51:18 fizzie, says "under" 10:51:22 Apparently. 10:51:26 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:52:06 ooh I remember playing this http://macintoshgarden.org/games/galactic-core 10:52:12 at least I remember that splash screen 10:53:04 -Md/Wallops- we had to shut down one of our servers which was unstable. sorry for the noise 10:53:06 you don't say? 10:53:52 Ooh, a play-by-email (potentially) game. How refreshingly quirky. 10:54:12 VGA Planets was played quite a lot in the BBS scene around here. 10:54:25 fizzie, wait what? it had that? 10:54:28 I don't remember 10:54:46 It says "has the option of playing multiplayer games via email" on that page, at least. 10:54:53 oh right 10:55:15 * AnMaster didn't read the text, when he noticed there was no key 10:55:20 because I didn't have one either 11:05:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:05:27 * oklopol feels like esolanging 11:06:15 Speaking of $2500 cables (okay, so we're not speaking of them *now*, but we've been speaking of them earlier); here's a $2500 dowsing rod: http://simmonsscientificproducts.com/pmr_iii.html 11:06:54 It's the best thing you can possibly get with today's technology. 11:07:02 I found oxyd for mac 11:07:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:07:17 it looks incredibly similar to enigma in graphics 11:07:17 (As long as your "things" are limited to fancy sticks, and you use a suitable definition of "best".) 11:07:23 not only in game play I mean 11:08:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:08:09 fizzie, what is a "dowsing rod"? 11:08:25 AnMaster: A rod that you do dowsing with. 11:08:33 fizzie, dowsing being? 11:08:46 AnMaster: 1. dowse, dowsing, rhabdomancy -- (searching for underground water or minerals by using a dowsing rod) 11:08:52 oh 11:08:56 You wave a stick around and it magically (or pseudoscientifically) finds water. 11:09:01 Or whatever else you want it to find. 11:09:22 Except that with $2500 you get a stick with two (count 'em, two!) "power tubes". 11:09:25 fizzie, remember this? http://macintoshgarden.org/games/spin-doctor 11:09:32 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:09:39 * AnMaster gets nostalgic 11:10:02 No, I don't. Of course, I was never a Mac person myself, just an observer of some. 11:10:43 fizzie, what about that performa then? 11:11:24 Well, I didn't play with it *that* much. 11:11:54 fizzie, iirc spin doctor was bundled with a performa I used. 11:12:00 5600 or around there 11:12:30 I don't remember seeing it, but of course I didn't exactly buy it as new, and don't really know where the software on it came from. 11:13:02 With it#1 being that spin doctor, and it#2 + it#3 being the Performa boxey. 11:14:33 fizzie, I actually parsed it correctly first time. But after reading the clarification I ended up confused for several seconds 11:16:09 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:19:26 {AnMaster} Gregor, the wikify thing is gone? <-- renamed to ".wiki", which is hidden in the listing 11:20:19 The shebang is written as: #!/usr/bin/env .wiki 11:30:57 ah 11:35:19 MizardX, what does the .wiki stuff do then? 11:59:05 About the same as before, but treats both normal and wikified content the same. 11:59:17 MizardX, yeah and what was that 11:59:28 * AnMaster missed the part where it was actually described 12:00:08 It converts [[links]] to accual links, and adds
at linebreaks. 12:00:28 Also adds page title, and edit links to each wikified page. 12:00:40 s/links/link/ 12:00:41 MizardX, not
? 12:00:57 I don't remember. Could be 12:24:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:20:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:20:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:28:09 The proper name is, of course, Scandinaviland. <-- just next to neverland 13:31:16 I'm not sure what. Something about undead sheep-shavers. Sounds bizarre. 13:31:20 scary stuff 13:34:30 Yay, got the official confirmation email that they've accepted my graduate school application. Funding, and therefore almost guaranteed employment here at the university, for 2010-2013. No more begging for spare coins under the railway overpass! (Okay, so I hadn't yet even started that, but still. And conditional to the thesis-work progressing at a reasonable speed.) 13:35:02 congrats 13:35:19 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:55:39 -!- oklokok has joined. 13:58:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:58:56 -!- fax has joined. 14:02:37 oerjan, iwc 14:03:06 aye 14:03:49 also I disagree with the annotation. 14:04:24 well naturally it's not that bad usually 14:04:48 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:05:05 After reading the comp.risks digests every now and then, I do have a view somewhat like in the annotation of software. 14:05:31 heh never knew of that usenet group 14:05:35 but if you thought computer programs were _usually_ made as good as possible, then you should be really worried about those examples :D 14:05:50 anyway, I never had much problems except for emulators for old systems. 14:08:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:08:25 Well, just look at the state of computer security; vulnerabilities all over the place, even in things that should be trivial. (Buffer overflows! In 2009!) Admittedly the adversarial model they run in is a lot more difficult than just "has to be robust against accidental errors". 14:09:07 hm true 14:09:35 As far as non-security-related things go, there must be something in the eyeball-bugs saying, since at least my vague feeling is that bug density is higher in all kinds of closed-source blobs. (Skype and nvidia's binary drivers come to mind.) 14:10:08 Eyeball bugs; they're these little critters that nest in your eyeballs. Icky. 14:10:08 fizzie, I suggest a solution to it: Use "unsafe" languages (like C or asm) only for the stuff you can't use something better (like LISP) for. 14:10:30 "eyeball-bugs"? 14:11:10 fizzie, and yes. agreed that binary blobs are more problematic. 14:11:22 "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." 14:11:43 ah 14:11:45 yes indeed 14:13:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:13:34 fizzie, oh and just as an example... I have a WinXP 64-bit VM. Haven't used it for half a month. 12 new security updates. And two reliability ones. 14:15:12 windows updates usually only come once a month, afaik... 14:15:58 but several at once naturally 14:16:34 oerjan, probably. There has been such a month increment recently 14:16:35 some days ago 14:17:04 yes i got it a couple days ago or so 14:17:42 The CVE list has 39098 entries, spread over a decade or so; that's something like ten a day. 14:19:51 fizzie, sure that is right? 14:20:18 http://cve.mitre.org/cve/ "TOTAL CVEs: 39098" 14:20:36 grep 'Name: CVE' allitems.txt |wc -l => 41068; and they start from 1999. 14:22:49 fizzie, that count differs quite a bit hm 14:23:07 maybe some are references? 14:23:08 or such 14:23:22 Possibly. 14:23:41 Anyway, that's the order of magnitude. 14:27:20 (Of course not everything in the CVE list probably counts as a vulnerability; I think the count also includes candidate-but-not-a-real-entry entries and such.) 14:27:30 Must away for a few hours now. 14:32:45 yay for vm snapshots. 14:35:25 * AnMaster lightly prods some VMs 14:42:08 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:42:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:50:58 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:55:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:56:44 -!- oklokok has joined. 15:04:53 After reviewing about 8 hours of recorded webcam video, I now know what the cat does when we're at work: sleeps. 15:05:19 fizzie, was that what you planned to use it for? 15:05:33 Yes. Well, sort-of. 15:05:38 really? 15:06:24 Yes, cat-observation was the intended goal. It's just that I assumed it'd actually move from my chair at least once during the day. Apparently not. 15:06:51 It did stand up a couple of times, and did some self-lickery, but that seemed to be about it. 15:09:02 fizzie, heh. Why did you want to watch it though? 15:09:54 We wanted to know if it seems bored or not during the day. :p 15:10:01 fizzie, btw I found a way to make sheepshaver less unstable: Shut it down very often. Like after you copy some files. Shut it down before doing the next step 15:10:09 shut down and start again obviously 15:10:23 not restart, becuase that doesn't quit and restart sheepshaver itself 15:10:44 fizzie, heh 15:11:00 fizzie, and the conclusion to that is? 15:14:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:14:03 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:20:39 Well, our preliminary conclusion is that it's not terminally bored, since it just sleeps; we're guessing it'd walk around and look distressed or something. Who knows, though; it just says "krneeew" when we tried to ask directly. 15:21:40 fizzie, ah. Not quite the verbal skills of Maurice then? 15:28:37 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:39:15 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:54:27 -!- serp has changed nick to Guest7354. 16:19:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:26:42 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:27:02 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:27:55 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 16:28:09 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 16:28:21 -!- jix has joined. 16:29:12 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 16:29:33 -!- jix has joined. 16:29:42 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 16:30:05 -!- jix has joined. 16:32:39 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:45:51 MizardX: I think I need to put a notice somewhere along the lines of "all contributions to Hackiki are under license". Any objections to MIT/X11? 16:46:03 (Since you contributed stuff :P ) 16:47:05 I don't care. Pick whatever. 16:47:32 -!- fax has joined. 16:51:28 -!- augur has joined. 16:51:33 Durn 16:51:36 As in, "done" :P 17:06:51 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:15:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:38:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 17:39:43 Heh, somebody sent me "identify " 17:48:10 I wonder what my password is. 17:50:56 "My voice is my password. Verify me." As seen in the 1992 movie Sneakers. 17:51:59 Well, as heard. 17:52:02 Nowadays we have portable sound players without a noticeable loss of quality so that doesn't work as well 17:52:12 Or did they do a recording there as well? 17:52:23 They did. 17:52:41 Clipped together out of a whole lot of sentences. 17:52:57 Meh, what a crap verifier then 17:53:08 It's Hollywood, you know. 17:53:50 One voice-verification system asks you to read out a random string of digits and recognizes those, so you can't do pure replay. I would assume it to be vulnerable to some sort of "input numbers and I'll concatenate suitable clips together" application, though. 17:55:40 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:09:15 Hackiki is now up at http://hackiki.codu.org/ 18:10:58 -!- iamcal has joined. 18:13:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:22:25 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:28:01 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:40:25 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:45:43 first snow this season 18:46:13 Hey, they're forecasting snow here too. 18:46:58 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 18:47:22 fizzie, it seems to melt pretty quickly 18:47:27 Hey, it might actually be snowing out there too. Too dark to really make out without leaving the chair, but there's some sort of possibly snow-like rain visible under the street lamp out there. 18:48:05 fizzie, it was hailing (err is that the verb form of "hail" in English?) first. Then it changed into snow 18:48:24 (that is, unless they were trying out bouncing snow beta) 18:48:41 Slight physics engine tweaks, maybe. 18:48:53 Yeah, it's been snowing for a while now 18:48:59 fizzie, yeah. Or a bug in the matrix 18:49:00 Maybe half an hour 18:49:09 I don't think we've lately been getting proper stays-on-ground snow before christmas, though, so I guess it'll melt pretty immediately. 18:49:35 Deewiant, here it has been hailing since 10:00 or so, and snowing since just after sunset 18:49:57 which was... uh... several hours ago? Something like that 19:03:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 19:05:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:11:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:43:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:03:29 -!- Pthing has joined. 21:03:19 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:03:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:16:54 -!- fax has joined. 21:44:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:52:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 22:20:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:20:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:25:50 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:28:37 -!- Leonidas1 has joined. 22:29:07 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:41:00 * pikhq is log-reading at random... 22:41:06 08:24:03 Benevolent Dictator For Until You Get Your Fucking Shit Together. 22:41:14 That's the best idea I've heard for fixing D. 22:41:16 Ever. 23:05:16 pikhq, who would be? 23:05:31 bbqs 23:12:12 You of course 23:22:49 hah 23:23:28 MizardX, would probably be better with someone who knew D and possibly also coded in it 23:23:45 nonsense 23:24:33 MizardX, yeah I would replace the whole thing with a cross between C and LISP 23:24:41 with some erlang mixed in 23:24:48 for the better 23:24:55 all the object orientation stuff would be dropped 23:25:13 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:25:13 -!- fungot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:25:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 23:25:45 for the better 23:25:45 all the object orientation stuff would be dropped 23:25:45 * MizardX has quit (calkins.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:25:51 not sure if you missed anything there 23:25:59 No 23:26:07 Server I was connect to died 23:26:15 Quick reconnect 23:37:00 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:38:20 -!- augur has joined. 23:43:10 MizardX: I replaced .wiki with one that uses WikiCreole. 23:43:17 ok 23:43:36 WikiCreole? 23:43:47 http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Creole1.0 23:43:54 It's just some Wiki syntax that's fairly sensible. 23:44:22 Gregor, please use moinmoin syntax. For the lulz 23:44:22 I extended WikiCreole to support this syntax: {{{\n#!/usr/bin/python\nprint "Lawl embedded code"\n}}} 23:44:37 Gregor, that looks ugly 23:44:44 as bad as trac's usage of {{{}}} 23:45:01 God I hate people. 23:45:08 Gregor, why? 23:45:09 At this moment particularly AnMaster, but people in general. 23:45:18 Gregor, why do you hate me? 23:45:28 AnMaster: If you don't like the syntax, HEY, the script is in the wiki, go do whatever you fucking want and stop complaining that every syntax is wrong :P 23:45:47 Gregor, did I complain about every one? 23:46:01 but yes. As a matter of fact. All syntax syntax suck 23:46:05 at least all I have seen so far 23:46:23 Anyone who would complain about {{{...}}} used for f***ing INLINE CODE is somebody who hates all syntax. 23:47:04 Anyway, Hackiki is now officially the greatest wiki ever. 23:47:13 And all people should stop development on their inferior wikis and use Hackiki. 23:47:16 :P 23:47:43 Gregor, how is it performance wise? ;P 23:47:51 Seems good enough, surprisingly *shrugs* 23:48:02 I doubt it scales, since it's effectively CGI + plash 23:49:37 Gregor, yeah. I was suspecting plash wouldn't scale 23:50:08 Oh yeah, plus every page view involves an hg clone, I suppose that's not super-fast X-D 23:53:15 I don't think plash itself is very slow, really, but as the wiki increases in size the hg clone will become slower (duh), so that could be a very real issue. 23:59:16 Is Plash Debian-specific or some such? 2009-11-05: 00:03:53 Hypothetically it isn't, really it is. 00:04:13 I'm finding it absurdly difficult to find a freaking source tarball. 00:04:39 funbot style! 00:04:55 fax: But, they offer source .debs. 00:04:56 http://www.plash.beasts.org/packages/plash_1.19.orig.tar.gz 00:05:06 Dankon. 00:05:59 It's still pretty Debian-specific though. 00:06:21 I'm going to experiment for a bit. 00:06:30 And if it doesn't work, much violence will be performed. 00:17:31 -!- coppro has joined. 00:17:40 "checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc... gcc-4.1 -fno-stack-protector 00:17:41 " 00:17:53 From the attempt to build plash-glibc. 00:17:55 *facepalm* 00:20:32 Hyuk 00:20:47 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:31:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:08 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:57 -!- Azstal has joined. 00:49:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:59:38 -!- fax has quit (Client Quit). 01:01:49 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 01:02:28 -!- iamcal has quit. 01:03:58 -!- coppro has joined. 01:27:34 night 01:35:28 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:41:57 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:53:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:55:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:07:17 -!- madbr has joined. 03:07:19 hey 03:10:32 -!- augur has joined. 03:22:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 03:27:58 -!- augur has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- coppro has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- HackEgo has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:59 -!- sebbu has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:05 -!- Guest7354 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:06 -!- Warrigal has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:09 -!- Cerise has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:09 -!- Slereah has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:54 -!- augur has joined. 03:28:54 -!- coppro has joined. 03:28:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:28:54 -!- HackEgo has joined. 03:28:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 03:28:54 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:29:35 -!- Cerise has joined. 03:29:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:29:43 -!- madbr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:47:08 -!- madbr has joined. 04:21:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:22:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:19:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 06:19:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:38:41 Gregor: you're still doing this clone-at-every-turn thing? 06:38:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:45:53 Gregor: I think you'd be pleased to know that your elfloader thing (barely) works on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu. 06:46:19 (though only on staticly linked binaries -- it throws up on trying to load /lib/ldlinux.so) 06:49:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:49:44 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:33:13 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:52:33 -!- immibis has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:08 pikhq, what does the elfloader thing do? 08:09:49 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]"). 08:23:53 -!- cal153 has joined. 08:56:48 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:19:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:19:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:35:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:03:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:09:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:11:21 aargh 11:11:26 they blacklisted the PC speaker kernel module in 9.10 11:11:29 to avoid the beep-on-shutdown bug 11:11:37 that is really not the right way to fix a bug... 11:24:09 -!- jix has joined. 12:03:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:31:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 12:32:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:48:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:48:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:53:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:55:01 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 12:56:37 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:12:55 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:13:39 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:16:16 ais523, agreed 13:16:40 ais523, in fact, I would say that the new behaviour is a bug 13:16:54 oerjan, iwcx 13:16:56 oerjan, iwc* 13:17:37 iwc: the grammaring 13:20:59 indeed 13:21:09 * AnMaster is irritated that sheepshaver requires sysctl -w vm.mmap_min_addr=0 13:21:10 to run 13:29:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 13:33:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:49:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:53:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:10:27 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:13:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:29:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:32:32 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 14:33:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:50:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 14:52:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:52:49 -!- Asztal has quit (Client Quit). 15:05:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 15:12:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:00 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:15:13 -!- EgoBot has joined. 15:25:51 -!- augur has joined. 15:30:09 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:30:15 -!- HackEgo has joined. 16:32:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:42:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:43:16 -!- fax has joined. 17:21:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:21:40 -!- MizardX has joined. 18:30:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory_. 18:30:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory__. 18:30:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory__ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory_. 18:30:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 19:09:40 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:18:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 19:45:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:48:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:07:16 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:46:02 http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/technotes/tb/tb_10.html 20:46:06 I think the title is wrong there 20:46:11 agree ais523 ? 20:46:21 says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" 20:46:22 hardly 20:46:31 I don't really get what you're on about 20:46:34 "[Mar 01 1988]" 20:46:42 ais523, look at the date of that technical note 20:46:51 then look at the header thingy for that secion 20:46:53 section* 20:46:57 which says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" 20:47:05 except, this is from before Mac OS X was invented! 20:47:09 for all I know that API still exists in OSX 20:47:26 ais523, I don't think that would apply here. XD 20:50:48 ais523, also what about this one "Macintosh Plus Pinouts" 21:03:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:37:46 ais523, oh god, I just ended up being randomly highlighted by some noob so noobish I never seen anything as bad 21:38:42 what is googl 21:38:42 hadge_, web search engine. You know where you search in the browser. Maybe you use some other search engine *shrug* 21:38:42 I have something called yahoo.com 21:38:56 sigh, why did I even answer the highlight 21:39:23 also it gets worse 21:39:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 21:41:03 Anyone know how to restart a machine 21:41:05 sigh 21:51:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:52:21 ais523, have you seen ehird recently at all? 21:52:38 no 21:52:58 ais523, any idea if something happened to his net connection or such? 21:53:06 no, why would I? 21:53:19 meh. UK is small (area-wise) 21:53:20 ;P 21:53:30 (well, at least compared to Sweden) 21:53:41 (and yes I invented that justification afterwards) 21:56:46 ais523, wikipedia question: 21:56:49 "According to Archive.org since at least February 11, 2008 the URL address http://www.apple.com/hypercard no longer points to Apple's site but redirects to this Wikipedia article." 21:57:02 why the "according to archive.org" but 21:57:03 bit* 21:57:10 is there some policy reason for it? 21:57:11 for historical info, presumably 21:57:15 and yes, it's a citation 21:57:21 ais523, it still does redirect like that 21:57:22 -!- fax has quit (Client Quit). 21:57:23 I checked 21:57:30 ais523, but why :P 21:57:43 I mean, this seems like it wouldn't need a citation. 21:57:47 or maybe *shrug* 21:58:15 -!- fax has joined. 22:02:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 22:07:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:21:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:27:59 No original research! 22:30:32 * AnMaster plays around with hypercard 22:31:03 hypercard is cool 22:31:10 yeah. kind of 22:32:30 i don't understand what the lecturer was talking about, turing machines are totally fun to program and run manually 22:32:46 oklopol, heh? what did he say? 22:32:54 * oklopol just accepted a^(2^2) 22:33:01 oklopol: You are probably in the minority, though. 22:33:06 well he said the opposite 22:33:24 Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. 22:33:31 Ours did, too. 22:33:58 this is not a basics course, although we are doing basics of tm's atm 22:33:59 Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. ← why? 22:34:26 It's because of the Conspiracy. 22:34:49 See, they've tried to infect Wikipedia too: "Turing machines *are not intended as a practical computing technology*, but rather as a thought experiment representing a computing machine." -- emphasis mine. 22:34:59 :/ 22:36:51 i get two entirely different, but equally great pleasures, from 1. fitting tons of state interaction info in my head 2. running the machine without thinking, and watching it slowly do its magic 22:37:37 oklopol, heh 22:38:18 String rewriting languages are also nice to watch. 22:38:19 what is the proof for turing machines having the properties they do? 22:38:37 I mean, you can't reduce it to another turing complete language 22:38:39 i mean as long as the program is simple enough i can do it without any sort of compilation 22:38:44 (that kind of defeats the point) 22:38:57 once you do compilation, you might just as well use a better language 22:38:59 err 22:39:10 AnMaster: what do you mean? 22:39:22 oklopol, not sure XD 22:39:27 ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CLOSURE PROPERTIES 22:39:37 oklopol, unkown. I'm too sleepy 22:39:42 oklopol: IS YOUR SHIFT KEY STUCK? 22:40:01 the families of R and RE languages are closed under pretty much everything 22:40:14 fizzie: no, some things just need to be said in uppercase 22:41:16 oklopol, I mean. How do you prove UTMs are TC. Basically. 22:41:21 you don't 22:41:25 well apart from that being the definition of TC 22:41:36 so lets rephrase that 22:41:54 what you do is you define turing machines and define computation as what they do. 22:42:13 then the empty proof proves they are TC 22:42:18 :) 22:42:40 empty proof heh 22:43:03 oklopol, what about the stuff about that being the best possible class. Well apart from those oracle machines (which no one explains how they would be implemented) 22:43:23 fax, yeah made me think of "empty set" 22:43:44 well it's sort of relevant http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/ 22:43:58 I just really liked that article 22:44:13 since he mentions turning machine :/ 22:44:20 AnMaster: it's not the best possible class, RE is a proper subset of 2^({0,1}*) 22:44:31 that is, there are languages that need a stronger machine 22:44:53 oklopol, best possible plausible class? Or what is the point of it 22:45:08 define plausible 22:45:15 oklopol, I don't know 22:45:16 But there's a whole pile of other models of computation, for which you can prove that a Turing machine can do the same things. The proofs of course depend on what you're comparing to. 22:45:22 AnMaster: neither does anyone else 22:45:28 AnMaster a lot of people say "turing machine/lambda calculus/whatever can compute anything you want it to" 22:45:37 oklopol, I don't know *what* it is I don't know 22:45:40 it's kinda vauge and meaningless as far as I could tell 22:46:32 AnMaster: turing machines have no mathematical property that makes them the best possible plausible class. 22:46:39 they just correspond nicely to our intuition 22:46:44 of what computation si 22:46:45 *is 22:47:07 hm 22:47:27 i suggest you just believe me :P 22:47:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:47:39 anyway look up church turing thesis 22:48:39 err well RE obviously isn't closed under complementation 22:48:48 but anyway 22:49:00 R is very flexible 22:50:00 night 22:50:04 night 22:50:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:53:25 -!- Pthing has joined. 22:58:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:04:08 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:06:30 AnMaster: there is no theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class in any way; the Church-Turing statement is the unproven statement that it's the best computational class we can build. 23:07:02 Or, alternatively, the best computational class the brain can simulate. 23:10:58 ...Actually, I'm sure there is a theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class where if the machine outputs something, there is a proof that it does. 23:11:22 -!- comex has joined. 23:15:04 -!- coppro has joined. 23:18:04 I thought Church-Turing was that lambda and turning machine are equivalent 23:18:39 looks like I am wrong 23:18:56 it says on the wiki "Informally the Church–Turing thesis states that if an algorithm (a procedure that terminates) exists then there is an equivalent Turing machine, recursively-definable function, or applicable λ-function, for that algorithm. Today the thesis has near-universal acceptance." 23:19:12 but that seems odd because it use the word "exists" in a non-mathematical context 23:19:27 and also it's not clear where this places oracles 23:19:27 Indeed, it does. 23:19:40 It implies that oracles do not "exist". 23:19:43 "Every effectively calculable function is a computable function" 23:19:48 hehe 23:20:31 It would be quite nice if the Church-Turing thesis were that lambda calculus and Turing machines are equivalent. 23:21:25 But it isn't, so we'll have to stick with our Curry-Howard isomorphism. 23:47:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:55:07 Well, Turing machines can't exist, but close enough I guess 23:55:22 While oracles are like double impossible 23:55:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2009-11-06: 00:07:29 I am not sure what exist mean.... 00:07:43 mostly we can not care but in the formal sense it matters 00:36:40 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/space/13lhc.html <-- reason might be that it ends the current branch of reality :) 00:38:56 LHC :( 00:44:48 -!- clog has joined. 00:44:48 -!- clog has joined. 00:57:58 -!- clog_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:14:01 -!- augur has joined. 01:22:52 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:25:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:27:21 -!- augur has joined. 01:29:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:38:50 MizardX http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30990 01:39:06 LHC having problems again? 01:44:47 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 01:46:44 PROBLEM: Every time a page in Hackiki was viewed, lib/python/creole.pyc would be updated, creating unnecessary churn in the hg-stored FS. 01:47:01 SOLUTION: rm lib/python/creole.pyc ; mkdir lib/python/creole.pyc ; touch lib/python/creole.pyc/empty 01:47:02 :P 01:47:17 XD 01:56:30 Interesting. X keyboard driver froze to extent that not even CTRL+ALT+Fx worked. Forcibly switching to text console and back cleared it up. 01:57:09 Gregor: It's faster to use the .pyc-file. Otherwise the .py will have to be parsed each time. 01:57:57 MizardX: But it ends up slowing down hg quite a bit because the .pyc file gets *touched* every time. 00:03:24 -!- clog has joined. 00:03:24 -!- clog_ has joined. 00:05:26 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:05:53 -!- augur has joined. 02:16:52 -!- clog has quit (Connection timed out). 02:22:00 MizardX: Yes, but the modification times aren't handled by hg. 02:22:17 So it's actually reparsing and recompiling it every time. 02:22:22 Yes, I know what a .pyc file is :P{ 02:27:50 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:28:19 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:28:41 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:29:58 Also, Hackiki supports file uploads now, so, y'know, make use of that n' all. 02:32:40 It sets an environment variable called FILES, then for each file it sets a difficult-to-read environment variable called FILE_ to the original filename. 02:37:23 -!- MizardX- has joined. 02:37:33 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:37:52 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 02:38:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:45:09 http://www.turtleflight.com/mbh/behavior_table.gif I'm pretty sure ehird will want to kill someone 02:45:41 Programming in MS Comic Sans! 02:47:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:23:50 -!- augur has joined. 03:30:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:40:27 -!- fax has quit (Client Quit). 04:15:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:18:33 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:18:39 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:32:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:37:12 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:39:06 -!- augur has joined. 04:52:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:10:18 -!- immibis has joined. 05:59:26 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:08:57 -!- coppro has joined. 06:09:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:31:11 -!- augur has joined. 07:09:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:25:53 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:53 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]"). 08:47:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:39:41 -!- ehird has joined. 09:39:54 13:16:36 http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Vivaldi-Masterpieces-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B002POQ2UQ . Go. Buy. 09:39:57 $6.99 for some unscarce bits? whyever would I do that? 09:39:59 13:24:44 he was (apparently) a priest, so I doubt he cared about money 09:40:01 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA 09:40:03 13:45:49 http://s.engramstudio.com/src/sdc.txt <- tentative rules 09:40:05 60 fps = waste of time 09:40:07 also hi guys 09:40:53 13:57:28 You fontophiles are idiots. 09:40:53 Liberation Mono is perfectly fine, don't confuse AnMaster being a malcontent with him being a font connoisseur. 09:41:07 should probably not bother trying to read five days of events 09:41:42 13:58:31 Gregor, I'm no fontofile. I prefer Ariel over Helvetia because the font spacing is proper in konqueror with it 09:41:43 ...especially when he's idiotic enough to confuse a font with a typeface. 09:41:48 (And misspell Arial.) 09:41:51 (Oh, and Helvetica.) 09:41:59 (And fontophile.) 09:43:33 14:01:13 some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! ; It is true of all lines of Intels (at least since P1pro) that there are early models of the newer one that is slower than the latest models of the previous one. 09:43:33 Not the i7. 09:43:37 It was faster from the start. 09:45:16 14:05:43 ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm 09:45:16 14:05:52 you could maybe use another one to kill two birds with one stone ;-) 09:45:17 14:06:00 Rugxulo, hah. 09:45:17 14:06:07 Rugxulo, I care about environment a bit 09:45:17 14:06:18 so I try to go by bus instead of car and so on 09:45:18 never mind invisible sandwich — invisible non sequitur-producing thought process 09:46:43 14:16:59 Rugxulo, AMD CPUs use more power 09:46:43 14:17:00 other than that they are better IMO 09:46:43 presumably you don't mean technologically, as AMD CPUs are simply inferior in every aspect nowadays 09:46:45 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 09:47:58 18:45:09 http://www.turtleflight.com/mbh/behavior_table.gif I'm pretty sure ehird will want to kill someone 09:47:59 yes, myself 09:48:08 It's still possible that they might release a faster-than-the-slowest-i7 in some of the earlier series. Maybe not that likely, though. (I think that's what happened with the original Pentium; the 60 MHz Pentium introduced March 1993 was faster than the 66 MHz 486dx2 models available at that time, but I have a feeling that the 100 MHz 486dx4 models from late 1994 beat the first 60 MHz Pentium.) 09:49:21 Not likely. The Core 2s of similar clocks to the first-model, lowest-end i7 lose slightly. 09:49:25 (Why is it called "DX4" anyway when it runs at triple the bus clock rate?) 09:49:38 Admittedly with the brute force of clock speed and a lot of money you could get the uber-best Core 2 to beat the 920 09:56:50 s/, subject to the following conditions:\n\nThe above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in\nall copies or substantial portions of the Software.// 10:02:20 hmm http://www.opensource.org/licenses/fair.php looks like the simplest OSI-approved license 10:02:31 although "usage" is very vague 10:05:21 14:35:18 and what was adlib? 10:05:21 14:35:29 or Roland MT-32? (sounds familiar, unlike adlib) 10:05:21 * ehird claps 10:05:34 MT-32 only being the best MIDI synthesiser ever made. 10:05:41 Adlib only being one of the most popular soundcards of the 90s. 10:06:03 You know, clearly you already know these things being so sure that DOS nostalgia is ridiculous. Otherwise you wouldn't be so sure, right? 10:07:58 especially the mt-32 was unique due to its total reprogrammability 10:08:25 unemulatable too, due to much analogness 10:11:26 15:05:53 but you keep saying, "What's the point?" as if it was always so cut and dry 10:11:26 the only proper emotional expression is symphonic music composed by dead men! 10:12:12 That's just a matter of signal processing with enough bits. ScummVM has a MT-32 emulator (from the Munt project; it eats a ROM image you have to extract from a real MT-32), though I can't attest at all to how faithful it is. 10:13:17 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:15:05 The predecessor ("MT-32 Emulation Project") has a MP3 sample file from both the real and emulated synthesizers at http://www.artworxinn.com/alex/downloads.htm, but I don't have headphones here right now. On a forum someone says it isn't very good. 10:15:06 15:46:33 AnMaster: http://www.lauppert.ws/screen1/mac/glider.png 10:15:07 15:46:39 The games are nowadays free, it seems. 10:15:07 <3 10:15:12 fizzie: the scummvm mt-32 emulator sucks 10:15:19 I have a real MT-32, and I pirated the relevant ROM files 10:15:22 no comparison 10:15:56 15:48:13 Possibly a ripoff of some kind, since I think it was on a PC. It /was/ a paper aeroplane. 10:15:57 there was a pc version iirc 10:16:15 There's a Windows version on the download page, yes. 10:16:20 right. 10:16:21 (Of the older Glider 4.) 10:16:37 it runs on os x, the latest one there 10:16:43 i think it's just the os 9 one compiled for os x 10:16:47 Yes, but that's too easy! 10:16:47 uses old school quickdraw stuff 10:16:51 very confusing to use on os x :) 10:17:04 The house editor works only in the OS 9 version, too. 10:17:16 yes, horrific. :P 10:17:41 Incidentally, MT-32 emulators can never emulate the best thing about it. 10:17:56 Seeing the tiny calculator-style LCD display light up with a game-specific message in the intro. 10:18:58 You could try to sell a special USB peripheral that'd have a similar-looking display; only used by a MT-32 emulator program to display that. I'm sure it'd be a hit. 10:21:30 DSP development boards tend to have all kinds of programmable blinkenlights and dip switches, ostensibly for making it easier to debug your code since you can run it real-time and watch the lights -- but I really suspect they've added those just because the plain PCB boards are so utterly boring to look at. Quite a lot of the demo-example-programs of one SDK do a Knight Rider style led-blinkery for no special reason. 10:21:53 fizzie: It could even have a little chip that reads in digital data, feeds it through a nop analog circuit, and returns it as digital data. 10:21:59 The analog fuzz can be yours again! 10:22:35 Oh, modifying the ISC license may be the best idea. 10:22:37 "Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies." 10:22:38 → 10:22:43 "Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any purpose with or without fee is hereby granted." 10:23:04 Then use the warranty disclaimer from the Fair License; "DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY." 10:24:59 Your software is FREE as in reFREshmEnts. 10:25:21 FREE as in Fuck copyright, Repeal Electrical Engineers! Wait... what? 10:25:45 "As stated the law allows abuses of software. Require a clause that no malicious uses may be entered into with said program conditional of any use." —OSI page for the MIT license 10:25:57 HELLO DOUGLAS CROCKFORD 10:26:13 According to Wikipedia, TEMPEST comes from "Tremendously Endowed Men Performing Exciting Sexual Techniques". (Okay, so that's just one of the suggested backronym formations.) 10:26:59 Tally-ho; erections must penetrate estrogen's stomach tumour. 10:28:33 Copyright (c) 2009, Elliott Hird 10:28:34 10:28:36 Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software 10:28:36 for any purpose with or without fee is hereby granted. 10:28:36 10:28:36 DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY. 10:28:47 Well, I guess I should s/WORKS/SOFTWARE/. 10:28:52 And, really, it would be nice if it applied to all works. 10:29:16 Well, permission to use is pretty implicit, I'd say... hmm. 10:29:43 You should also s/DISCLAIMER/GENTLEMENT/ -- that would make it sound better. 10:29:52 Discard the spurious T, though. 10:29:53 xD 10:30:09 * ehird tries to do copying→? as in modify→modification, distribute→distribution 10:30:48 Substituting copying for ?, methinks this is t he best: 10:30:49 Copyright (c) 2009, Elliott Hird 10:30:50 Usage, copying, modification and distribution of the works is permitted. 10:30:51 DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY. 10:30:51 *the best 10:31:21 Perhaps "of the works and any derivative works", so you can distribute post-modification (though apparently the OSI lawyers don't think that's necessary, seeing as it's "Usage of the works is permitted provided that this instrument is retained with the works, so that any entity that uses the works is notified of this instrument.") 10:31:30 But "usage" is way too vague for me. 10:32:30 Copyright (c) 2009, Elliott Hird 10:32:31 10:32:32 Usage, copying, modification and distribution of the works and any derivative works is permitted. 10:32:32 10:32:32 DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY. 10:32:39 "works is permitted" seems awkward, though. 10:32:52 I wonder if the singular "work" would suffice. 10:43:21 Copyright (c) 2009, Elliott Hird 10:43:22 10:43:22 Usage, copying, modification and distribution of this work and any derivative works is hereby permitted. 10:43:22 10:43:22 DISCLAIMER: THIS WORK IS PROVIDED WITHOUT WARRANTY. 10:58:46 For some reason, I thought "GENTLEMENT" was a truncated version of the proper word. 10:58:55 Like GENTLEMENTATION. 11:03:33 * ehird orders someone to shop the GENTLEMEN picture to say GENTLEMENTATION 11:03:47 Well, "GENTLEMENTATION.". 11:05:15 Copyright (c) 2009, Elliott Hird 11:05:16 Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this work is hereby granted. 11:05:16 DISCLAIMER: THIS WORK IS PROVIDED WITHOUT WARRANTY. 11:05:18 Amend, amend, amend. 11:05:34 I guess "hereby" is omittable, but it seems to flow better. 11:07:39 Hmm, there's always that person mentioning that (c) has no legal effect/ 11:07:40 *effect. 11:07:49 Also, I don't think the year really matters. 11:08:00 And "Copyright Elliott Hird" is... pretty implicit. 11:08:12 Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this work is granted. 11:08:13 11:08:13 THIS WORK IS PROVIDED WITHOUT WARRANTY. 11:08:15 Well that's minimalism for you. 11:09:18 Permission to use, copy, modify and distribute this work is granted. 11:09:19 11:09:19 THERE IS NO WARRANTY. 11:10:14 Anyone know if permission to use is implicit in copyright law? Pretty sure it is. 11:12:11 The WTFPL is basically "Permission to do anything with this work is granted.", but that doesn't seem very robust. 11:12:21 The FSF thinks it's okay, though, so perhaps I could simplify further. 11:12:37 -!- ehird has left (?). 11:12:39 -!- ehird has joined. 11:12:41 Whoops. 11:20:49 "Permission is granted to copy, modify and distribute this work." 11:22:23 here is the only licence you need: 11:22:28 "just do what you want" 11:22:38 I *did* mention the WTFPL, you know. 11:22:56 no because software licencing is the worst thing 11:23:01 i don't mean the actual idea, it's there 11:23:07 And if we could be so cavalier about the law, then the most license we'd need would be the null string. 11:23:18 (Actually it'd be nice if copyright was repealed, but it isn't.) 11:23:27 but like 11:23:37 having a million versions of YEAH DO WHAT YOU WANT 11:23:41 is the worst thing 11:23:45 But personally I don't feel like encouraging another djb situation, when software is inaccessible to most potential users because of licensing issues. 11:23:50 Pthing: There really aren't that many. 11:24:01 The WTFPL is the only one, really. 11:24:04 Maybe a few obscure ones. 11:24:20 10 IF NUM_GAY_LICENCES > 0 GOTO 20 11:24:21 Even the MIT license has restrictions (inclusion of the notice). 11:24:24 20 PRINT "THIS IS SHIT" 11:24:30 License-on-license action? Hot. 11:26:05 But seriously, no, there aren't that many licenses with no restrictions; the WTFPL is probably okay to use but it also contains a bunch of boilerplate around the main do-what-the-fuck-you-want-to text and, besides, I'm not sure how it'd stand up in the retarded courts. 11:27:30 fuq da g-man 11:27:46 Also, the WTFPL is intended for software use only. 11:28:17 Pthing: is batting backwards and forth between retarded, incoherent and illogical and intelligent, coherent and logical your schtick or something? you do it a lot 11:28:43 if it's something somebody does a lot then i think that's a schtick by definition 11:29:21 Thar he blows! 11:29:29 Do it again, do it again 11:29:52 software licencing gives me tremendous feelings of not feeling anything 11:30:09 You'll note I never mentioned software. 11:30:16 But yes, it is incredibly boring. 11:30:24 It's also necessary due to the idiocy that is copyright. 11:30:33 is there money in it 11:31:33 There's no money in a lot of good things. 11:31:41 But licensing isn't good. 11:31:48 i meant more like 11:31:49 So I'm not sure what my or your points are. 11:32:00 if you're using the licencing to protect your golds then that's okay 11:32:12 that is only business and nobody is expecting business to be free of puffery 11:32:31 I'm using licensing to negate the restrictions that copyright law places on my works. 11:32:49 Public domain is, unfortunately, legally shaky. 11:32:55 no it isn't 11:33:02 you just *don't prosecute anybody* 11:33:25 Yep, Bernstein tried that 11:33:40 explain the case of Bernstein v. Shyster 11:34:00 Result: Linux distributions wouldn't touch his software with a ten foot pole, a lot of businesses almost certainly shied away (because, you know, he could prosecute them and win), blah blah blah 11:34:10 Besides, what you're proposing, then, isn't public domain. 11:34:18 It's "keep the copyright but don't enforce it". 11:34:22 The two concepts are distinct. 11:34:36 Both are idiotic to try and apply, but the latter is at least well-defined in all legal systems. 11:35:29 why do you care about well-defined in legal systems exactly 11:35:34 explain this bernstein thing better 11:35:56 Because everyone else does. Works aren't a bubble, and I publish them so that other people will take them. 11:36:09 "this bernstein thing" is ambiguous. 11:36:46 well, [[WP:DISAMBIGUATE]] 11:36:51 Right from the very start Debian (and Ubuuntu) and Fedora won't include my software, and I very much doubt any other major Linux distributions would. 11:36:55 or whatever the fuken wikipedia code is 11:36:59 The BSDs will probably ignore it too. 11:37:16 Every business ever (not that I care much) as well, and probably a handful of users too. 11:37:26 bernstein 11:37:28 Begging the question why I'd even bother publishing software. 11:37:28 who is bernstein 11:37:37 daniel j bernstein. 11:37:42 aka djb 11:37:45 *bearenstein 11:37:52 Author of qmail, djbdns. 11:39:02 this doesn't seem like a licencing issue 11:39:16 this seems like an issue regarding the classification of encryption as munitions 11:40:33 you're an idiot 11:40:46 hurr people can only have one issue? 11:40:53 i never mentioned bernstein v. usa 11:40:58 try reading 11:41:20 ffffff 11:41:28 then clarify 11:41:47 [11:32] ehird: Public domain is, unfortunately, legally shaky. 11:41:48 [11:32] Pthing: no it isn't 11:41:48 [11:33] Pthing: you just *don't prosecute anybody* 11:41:48 [11:33] ehird: Yep, Bernstein tried that 11:42:16 yeah, what did he try 11:43:03 Not licensing his software and just not suing anybody. 11:43:16 and what happened? 11:43:53 Nobody shipped his software. It had a decent base of users (especially a lot of corporations use qmail), and he's famous, but you had to manually download and compile it yourself. 11:44:11 Oh, and even he, who is quite clued up law-wise, says that this means you can't distribute modified versions, just patches. 11:44:23 In conclusion, no, "not suing anybody" is not a viable substitute for a license. 11:44:43 i don't see why that necessarily follows 11:45:11 he may just be terrible at convincing people to use his software, and he's using this licence thing as an excuse 11:45:41 lol 11:45:47 you clearly have no idea who djb is 11:45:55 and you've admitted this yourself 11:46:07 so please, don't make embarrassing grasps at straws 11:46:46 — his software is widely considered high-quality, he has a large money grant for anyone to find a bug, and there's only been something like four ever published (this is for qmail and djbdns, iirc) 11:46:49 it's no big feat to be like "hey, you don't know anything" to somebody who has been asking you for details and to explain yourself because he doesn't understand 11:47:15 it helps to make a reasonable assumption that I'm not using bernstein as an example because he's an idiot who can't write good software 11:47:23 that would be pretty stupid, after all. 11:47:25 i never wished to suggest that 11:47:39 how is it suggesting, you said it outright 11:47:42 where 11:47:44 [11:45] Pthing: he may just be terrible at convincing people to use his software, and he's using this licence thing as an excuse 11:47:45 there 11:47:48 :/ 11:47:59 it helps to make a reasonable assumption that I'm not using bernstein as an example because he's an idiot who can't write good software 11:48:15 " he's an idiot who can't write good software" == " he may just be terrible at convincing people to use his software"? 11:48:40 well, i'm kinda tired and didn't remember the exact line 11:48:49 but whatever, obviously the implication was that my example was not about the licensing 11:48:55 motherfucker, is your buffer two lines high 11:49:03 no that's anmaster. 11:49:14 being terrible at convincing people to use your software would generally lead to someone being not well known at all 11:49:21 and using such a nobody as an example would be very odd indeed methinks. 11:49:29 depends who he'strying to convince! 11:50:04 It is a fatal miscarriage, so ill to order affairs, as to pass for a fool in one company, when in another you might be treated as a philosopher. 11:50:28 ah yes, a quote from poem of the pthing :-P 11:50:36 jonathan swift 11:50:42 did i say otherwise! 11:50:53 i don't know, i think it's scrolled off the top 11:51:01 hmm 11:51:01 well 11:51:06 wait, what did you say last 11:51:11 i can make funnies me. 11:51:18 i don't know, my screen is just full of your lines 11:53:50 Permission is granted to copy, modify and distribute this work. 11:53:50 11:53:50 THERE IS NO WARRANTY. 11:53:51 * ehird watches Pthing squirm with detached interest 11:54:20 "do what you want" has four words 11:54:51 "fart butterfly cake" has one less 11:55:04 heck, even the WTFPL needs an additional warranty disclaimer 11:55:29 "do what you want. there is no warranty" would probably stand up, but it's still shaky. 12:08:44 -!- ehird has quit. 12:20:18 Misread "my screen is just full of your lies"; but maybe that is also applicable! (I haven't read the screen.) 12:20:33 haha 12:21:57 oerjan: the coding theory thing had an "error", or well, it was made simpler by adding "there are no codewords of weight 2"; we'll probably prove the other cases in the next two homework sets 12:22:12 it's utterly trivial with that addition 12:23:01 and the other cases are simple, but the lecturer at least doesn't know a simple solution, you have to check a few cases 12:23:45 assuming you still remember the original question 12:24:05 then again who could forget a mathematical question 13:09:20 Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 266: Section 102A1/2. Possession, transportation, use or placement of hoax devices: 13:09:20 "(b) For the purposes of this section, the term "hoax device" shall mean any device that would cause a person reasonably to believe that such device is an infernal machine. For the purposes of this section, the term "infernal machine" shall mean any device for endangering life or doing unusual damage to property, or both, by fire or explosion, whether or not contrived to ignite or explode automatically." 13:09:45 Beware, the infernal machine! 13:33:10 -!- jix has joined. 13:52:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:05:21 "First give it intelligence, then give it a gun." 14:07:49 Let's see my spam:ham ratio. 14:08:22 6392:175 14:08:36 LURVE WEBERNETS 14:09:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:11:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 14:12:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:14:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:14:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:14:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:25:05 yes, myself <-- do it! 14:38:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:41:32 oerjan, iwc 14:42:26 oerjan, and a question about it. Wondering if you can figure out why 14:42:36 (why jamie said that in the last panel I mean) 14:42:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:46:39 experience? 14:46:56 oerjan, eh? why it was inevitable 14:47:18 oerjan, what do you mean? 14:47:55 that _is_ the kind of universe that is. i am sure ehird can come up with some way of deriding you for not having noticed. 14:48:32 oerjan, right, but isn't that something the characters are supposed to be unaware of? 14:49:06 well, actually that's the kind of _multiverse_ that is. i think it applies to all of them... 14:49:44 true 14:51:12 no, this is not the kind of universe where you can expect characters to be unaware of things. unless they are named steve or serron. 14:51:36 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 14:52:23 or james stud. 14:52:29 argh I found out that sheepshaver fails at emulation for some games I wanted to play. They all display black game screen (controls and such around still) 14:52:30 :/ 14:52:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:52:58 oh or nigerian finance minister :) 14:53:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:53:20 ok, there are a lot of characters you can expect to be unaware of things. but not all ;) 14:53:22 oerjan, or probably a few more 14:53:29 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo. 14:53:31 just can't think of them atm 14:54:18 kyros, but not in the same way - he just doesn't _care_ if things go wrong from others' perspective 14:56:17 oh william shakespeare, probably 14:58:53 duh montana jones 14:59:15 ok most major themes have at least one clueless character 15:01:18 oerjan, not mythbusters? 15:02:24 hm well... 15:11:41 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 15:12:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:16:29 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:19:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 15:25:28 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo. 15:34:53 -!- coppro has joined. 15:42:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:44:17 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:54:14 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 16:08:25 -!- ineiros has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:08:35 -!- ineiros has joined. 16:08:49 -!- pikhq has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:09:09 -!- Ilari has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:09:21 -!- Ilari has joined. 16:09:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:20:52 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 17:04:55 -!- fax has joined. 17:05:09 -!- fax has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:05:30 -!- fax has joined. 17:13:08 -!- augur_ has joined. 17:13:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:22:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:25:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:26:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 17:30:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:42:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:29:33 -!- madbrain has joined. 18:40:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:45:45 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 18:48:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:01:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:05:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:18:09 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:21:30 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:35:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 19:43:31 I'm strongly considering moving some stuff over to Hackiki :P 20:17:39 -!- Leonidas1 has changed nick to Leonidas. 20:41:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:46:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:46:27 I wrote a background story text of my D&D character: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt 21:46:38 Now I should tell my brother to do so, also. 21:46:47 Did I miss anything important? 21:47:56 -!- augur has joined. 21:51:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:52:28 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:52:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:54:52 -!- fax has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:55:06 -!- fax has joined. 22:03:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:05:29 -!- olsner has joined. 22:14:54 -!- immibis has joined. 22:38:55 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:57:14 -!- coppro has joined. 23:19:43 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:33:17 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 23:42:03 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2009-11-07: 00:08:24 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:14:18 -!- cal153 has joined. 01:01:43 -!- augur has joined. 01:08:39 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"). 01:11:42 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:13:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:21:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:30 -!- augur has joined. 01:42:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:43:06 -!- augur has joined. 01:44:30 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:46:22 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:51:54 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:54:08 -!- augur has quit (Connection reset by peer). 02:21:55 -!- iamcal has joined. 02:43:30 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:46:02 -!- augur has joined. 02:46:48 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:20:27 -!- dbc has joined. 03:25:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 03:29:20 -!- augur___ has joined. 03:51:45 -!- augur___ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:15:13 -!- augur has joined. 04:38:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:44:16 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:57:22 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:29:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:31:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:46:42 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:46:44 Is it good? Did I forget anything? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt 05:48:06 O, in 8 hours there has been still only join and quit 05:49:47 -!- augur has joined. 05:50:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit ("Leaving"). 05:56:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:59:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:24:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:37:31 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:16:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:41:54 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 07:55:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 07:57:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:24 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 08:47:17 * coppro is experimenting with a new alarm... this better not mess up 09:04:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:09:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:25:38 coppro, alarm for? 10:25:43 as in alarm() ? 10:39:10 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:08:28 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 11:09:45 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:28:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:40:02 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 11:40:12 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:48:26 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:15:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:32:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:42:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 12:50:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:06:40 -!- jix has joined. 13:27:36 -!- jix has quit ("leaving"). 13:28:00 -!- jix has joined. 13:28:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:45:27 -!- Slereah has quit. 13:46:10 -!- ehird has joined. 13:47:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:50:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:03:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:18:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:23:40 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:30:55 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:35:12 Frailties. 14:36:34 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:31 06:25:05 yes, myself <-- do it! 14:37:31 by myself i evidently meant you. 14:37:45 :P 14:42:29 06:42:26 oerjan, and a question about it. Wondering if you can figure out why 14:42:30 06:42:36 (why jamie said that in the last panel I mean) 14:42:30 06:46:39 experience? 14:42:31 06:46:56 oerjan, eh? why it was inevitable 14:42:31 06:47:18 oerjan, what do you mean? 14:42:31 06:47:55 that _is_ the kind of universe that is. i am sure ehird can come up with some way of deriding you for not having noticed. 14:42:33 Au contraire; AnMaster is an expert in unintentionally deriding himself. I could not possibly top him. 14:43:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:44:04 02:25:38 coppro, alarm for? 14:44:05 02:25:43 as in alarm() ? 14:44:05 also an expert in intentionally misunderstanding 14:44:09 (cue "it was a joke") 14:45:38 ehird, I did find alarm() unlikely. But what sort of alarm it was was rather unclear. Perhaps alarm for overheating? Or an alarm clock to wake up in the morning? 14:45:51 but surely you can tell me which one he meant 14:45:51 It was pretty obviously for waking up. 14:55:34 Silence! 14:56:43 AnMaster: as in waking up 14:56:59 coppro, right 14:57:05 ehird, obvious why? 14:57:12 Because it's obvious. 14:57:46 ehird, nice circle argument. 14:58:09 With such stunning spelling of "circular argument", it's clear that you are a higher authority than I on what is obvious in English text. 14:58:40 ah yes as I expected... you are back on OS X 14:58:43 -ehird- VERSION Colloquy 2.3 (4617) - Mac OS X 10.5.8 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info 14:58:50 I've been on OS X for weeks. 14:59:07 ehird, okay, maybe you just had a bad day? 14:59:10 I'm pretty sure a circular argument (even if it was one) beats a completely unsubstantiated ad hominem, though. 14:59:23 * AnMaster puts ehird on ignore for now. 14:59:26 Especially one without any backing logic or reason, just a splatter of data points selectively sampled. 14:59:50 It sure would be nice if AnMaster would /ignore me for more than 5 minutes. 15:01:29 I wonder what mood AnMaster will divinate^Wscientifically assign to my Linux; perhaps "slightly mellow with a hint of cynicism". 15:28:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 15:35:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:36:35 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:37:09 -!- fax has joined. 15:37:16 * oerjan tries to swat FireFly, misses and swats ehird instead -----### 15:37:32 couldn't you have hit fax instead? he's closer 15:38:06 Well apparently he didn't 15:39:04 i'm sure there was probably karma involved 15:40:03 also, i'm sure "i'm sure there was probably" is probably not an ideal way of expression 15:41:32 I'm pretty sure a circular argument (even if it was one) beats a completely unsubstantiated ad hominem, though. 15:41:42 you just say that because you're an idiot 15:41:51 Ranking invalid arguments is so reasonable, I tell you. 15:42:02 I'm no idiot! I am, however, stupid. 15:42:25 yes you are an idiot. as that quote proves. 15:43:49 Your, uh, pa is an idiot. 15:45:37 that's almost more offensive than joking about my dead mother. mostly because i sometimes think so myself. 15:47:40 also, i am insulted that you have still not recognized my use of a circular ad hominem 15:57:50 Oops. 15:58:50 oerjan: your non-existent long-lost sister is an idiot, then 15:59:17 i can agree with that. 16:00:00 you sound so angry when you're not joking :D 16:00:33 well i'm grumpy today. 16:01:06 Yeah, well, your non-existent long-lost sister's... face? 16:01:07 Wait, what? 16:22:57 Drawing a serifed m in 7x10 pixels is the hardest thing I've done all day. 16:34:53 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 16:36:04 SERIFY DAT B*TCH 16:41:29 B*TCH? Srsly? 16:41:48 The reason login(1) delays on an incorrect password is to prevent brute-forcing, right? 16:42:14 botch a batch of butch bitches 16:50:55 It was "butch" 16:56:05 ehird: yeah I guess 16:56:18 Pretty stupid, since you can just spawn a bunch of login(1)s. 16:56:43 Or even detect the delay and go onto the next one (keeping the old process open in case it's just slow). 16:57:04 but a machine only has so many login processes around usually 16:57:51 one for each virtual terminal I think, but not for xterms or anything 16:58:25 and if they keep getting killed to fast, init will stop producing them (in case they have neterd a loop of some kind) 16:58:32 for about 5 mins usually 16:58:33 That property is to prevent brute-forcing to people who have NO account, not to people who have an account and want root. 16:58:54 Gregor: How can you run a brute-forcing program from the login(1) prompt? 16:58:54 but ordinary users can't spawn a login 16:59:00 telnet 16:59:15 aha 16:59:19 Gregor: You can detect the delay over telnet, too! 16:59:30 And make a bunch of telnet connections. 16:59:47 The latter is easily prevented, the former is unhelpful. 17:00:06 Meh. 17:00:12 It seems kinda pointless nowadays to me. 17:00:17 Nowadays it certainly is. 17:00:17 Especially when we have SSH keys... 17:00:19 It's outdated. 17:00:23 Thought so. 17:00:27 But it's a product of past. 17:00:29 Guess that's why you said telnet. 17:00:34 :P 17:00:35 Gregor: I can probably remove it. >:) 17:00:45 — I'm even trying to avoid PAM, not sure how that'll go 17:00:46 sshd doesn't even spawn login anyway 17:01:10 True. 17:01:17 It still delays on connect, though. 17:01:19 Erm 17:01:21 On invalid login. 17:01:27 Or, that might just be because ssh is slow; 17:01:29 *slow. 17:03:31 http://sta.li/faq ;; What's this? Sanity? Astonishing. 17:04:02 (http://github.com/dryfish/openbsd-pdksh sweeeeeet) 17:04:38 Although did they have to make it use autoconf? 17:06:28 And I hope automake defaulting it to GPLv3 is just a mistake... 17:13:09 * SimonRC likes the ldd exploit 17:13:33 it portably allows arbitrary code execution. 17:13:36 wow 17:15:00 -!- mad has joined. 17:15:05 -!- mad has changed nick to madbrain. 17:15:45 SimonRC: yep 17:15:56 and it's totally unintuitive, yet it's not a bug(!) 17:16:04 well, it's not a bug any more than static linking itself is a bug... 17:21:23 * ehird fiddles with ksh prompt 17:22:26 if it is a bug then it is a design-time bug 17:27:57 precisely 17:28:18 PS1="\e[47;4;30m\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$\e[m " seems to produce quite a pleasing prompt; makes underscores ugly, thouggh 17:28:20 *though 17:28:40 (underlined, light-grey backgrounded "~/foo$", then a space) 17:31:10 PS1='\e[47m\e[m ' is nice too (light-grey tab-sized space, then a space) 17:31:34 means you have to look at the title bar to see where you are, though (assuming you've set that up) 17:41:19 I have looked at my ldd, and I find that it has a list of known loaders and calls them with --verify and the executable name before invoking the executable itself. I guess that checks that the executable's loader is a known-safe one first 17:41:58 ehird: does that propmt change when you change directories? 17:42:09 yes, note the \ before $( 17:42:19 ksh expands the PS1 'fore printing. 17:42:46 technically I should have the horrible hack ksh uses to denote non-printing characters in there, but I'm lazy and it doesn't change much 17:42:54 (the prompt just disappears when the line scrolls to the right earlier) 17:43:06 and in fact my `man ksh` doesn't mention it so maybe the openbsd version doesn't have it 17:43:18 huh? ksh does some kind of scrolling prompt? 17:43:34 bash uses \[ and \] to denote zero-width parts of the prompt 17:43:46 $ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[…], press a 17:43:58 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 17:44:11 < meaning "yo, there's stuff to the left" 17:44:29 neat 17:44:36 you can caret (v. to manipulate a caret) to the left to see the earlier stuff 17:44:37 bahs just uses multiple lines 17:44:38 (no marker if you do that) 17:44:43 *bash 17:44:46 yeah, multiple lines is maybe a better solution 17:44:56 especially for pipelines 17:45:04 but eh, it's easy to hit enter after | 17:45:39 or, preferably, notice you're writing an involved shell command and spawn an rc :-P 17:46:54 * ehird does `sudo chsh` by mistake so often 17:46:59 it feels like it should require root! 17:47:09 and it prompts for a password, which makes my sudo-sense tingle 17:48:03 *though (not thouggh; ha, good luck finding the line I typoed this in) 17:50:03 * SimonRC is irritated that when invoking root-requiring things from the GUI, he is prompted for the root password 17:50:34 I have no root password; it should spot that and try a GUI sudo instead! 17:51:57 Ubuntu does :-P 17:52:14 SimonRC: symlink su to a shell script calling sudo ;-) 17:52:18 -!- sharada has joined. 17:52:23 I wonder why that hasn't got upstream 17:53:07 That is, make it `sudo realsu $*` 17:53:21 Or whatever 17:53:25 root doesn't need to give passwords to su, so... voila! 17:53:42 That doesn't fix GUI sus, but you could just do something similar there. 17:53:56 Make gksu do gksudo realsu $*, etc. 17:54:11 See, I'm helpful, me. 17:54:23 yeah 17:54:50 You should do it and test it so I can go yay, I'm clever. 17:56:11 cba 17:56:50 ;_; 17:56:59 Clearly the only rational course of action is to kill myself. 17:59:29 -!- fax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:08 -!- sharada has changed nick to fax. 18:01:39 * SimonRC listens to the excellent Undone, on the radio. 18:05:55 "Why do you say that he is a fundamentalist ? Do you mean that he is right ?" 18:12:30 what 18:13:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:14:04 Quote. 18:14:15 yeah but from where 18:16:14 Mailing list thread. Clearly the speaker is non-native (if the email header name "QUINTIN Guillaume" wasn't enough of a giveaway). 18:16:21 And the spaces before question marks. 18:16:23 Still, it's amusing. 18:16:49 It seems an easy mistake to make: "fundamentalist" → "of the fundamentals". 18:17:15 erm, it could also be that right ~ right-wing? 18:17:58 In context, both previous and following, that seems unlikely. 18:18:08 mhm 18:18:14 Besides, I think any non-native speaker, at least, would think right far more important a word than to abbreviate right-wing to it. 18:18:46 (Which means that the native speakers that abbreviate it put political alignment above facts! Or something.) 18:18:51 no i mean, they could be the same word in his native language, or he doesn't know that "wing" applies 18:19:49 the names of the two oldest political parties in norway translate as simply "left" and "right"... 18:20:22 Well that is true. 18:20:34 But still, context seems to paint that as unlikely. You might be right though. 18:20:59 french uses "de gauche" and "de droite"... could happen 18:21:03 oerjan: but would anyone making such a question really confuse fundamentalism and right-wing? 18:21:11 well it was just a theory (like evolution *ducks*) 18:21:16 to make a connection of that type, I'd have to translate fundamentalist back to English as a non-native speaker 18:21:25 which would almost certainly reveal the true meaning to me, thus negating the question 18:21:52 it seems like it's a connection you could only make if you knew what fundamentalist means already 18:21:54 ehird: well, fundamentalism/evangelicals aren't common asides from in USA, so it's definitely possible that he'd confuse them 18:22:11 Fundamentalism is everywhere. Do you really think it only applies to religion? 18:22:22 for example norwegians (i.e. me) have a hard time remembering to use left-hand or right-hand in english, since that is a case where we just use the bare words 18:22:39 ok maybe not me nowadays, but once upon a time 18:22:44 oerjan: My right is right, but my left is left. 18:22:54 THE POLITICAL AFFILIATION OF MY NORWEIGAN HANDS 18:22:59 *NORWEGIAN 18:23:07 BETTER: 18:23:10 *Better: 18:23:15 My left is right, but my right is left. 18:24:41 ehird: how you doing 18:24:46 oklopol: totally total 18:24:49 hmm 18:24:51 i should have just said 18:24:52 oklopol: totally 18:25:03 ah 18:25:04 ehird: while we do use the word "fundamentalisme" in norwegian, i assume this is mainly caused by recent US influence 18:25:05 i "see" 18:25:22 Fundamentalism doesn't just apply to religion dammit 18:25:27 at least in its current use 18:25:57 ehird: what i mean is we may not have used that word much before the USA recently started blasting it out everywhere 18:26:24 Right. 18:29:51 hmm 18:30:09 with nntp you can access messages sent before you "subscribe" can't you? 18:30:12 assuming the server keeps the 18:30:14 *them 18:31:37 dammit the last update of avg claimed to do some kind caching to avoid scanning every file every time, but it _still_ goes into the damn java runtime jars... which i recall from before is what takes about half the scanning time 18:31:42 *kind of 18:32:02 i don't protect viruses, because they don't protect me. 18:32:37 irrefutable logicz 18:32:41 i had hoped for some major speedup :( 18:33:20 back 18:34:18 oerjan: pirate nod32 18:34:22 fast as a speeding virus scanner 18:34:26 ehird: sure you can 18:34:39 wut 18:34:44 (to the nntp) 18:35:10 ehird: yeah, messages should be accessible 18:35:27 what is the nntp request for subscribing anyway? 18:35:28 ""Fundamentalism is everywhere. Do you really think it only applies to religion?"" ah, ok, then we're talking about 2 different things: "fundamentalists" as general people that take temselves way too seriously (incl. communists,etc..) and the specific "born-again" protestant movement 18:35:42 SimonRC: dunno if it even has one 18:35:58 madbrain: yeah; the second is the formal definition but it's fine, imo, to use it for the former 18:36:01 well if it didn't have one, how would your question make sense? 18:36:16 madbrain: when used in norway i would say > 50% of the time it refers to islamists 18:36:17 SimonRC: well, exactly 18:36:21 I use Giganews and it has plenty of coverage back to the early 90s at least 18:36:26 oerjan: islamists? you mean muslims. 18:36:57 actually, you mean fundamentalist muslims... 18:36:57 ehird: islamist ~~ rabid fundamentalist muslim 18:36:58 oerjan: that word isn't actually, you know, real 18:37:00 ehird: he's referring to fundamentalist islamists 18:37:15 wtf who created this word and didn't tell me about it 18:37:21 ehird: it's how the word islamist is used in norwegian afaik 18:37:29 it seems to exist. 18:37:34 and islamism as a word is afaik real at least in french and also used all the time 18:38:04 muslim = religion; islamism = political movement 18:38:05 ehird: it's what people use when they are pretending not to be against islam itself ;) 18:38:15 :-) 18:38:39 madbrain: the religion is definitely not called muslim, it's called islam 18:38:43 and its adherents are muslims 18:38:57 right 18:39:28 then it's islam vs islamism 18:39:46 pesky arab grammar, those are the same root... 18:40:08 ha true 18:40:12 how deep! indeed insanity does have the same root as religion 18:40:23 18:40:25 madbrain: i was refering to muslim as well there 18:40:25 ditto shit and science, IIRC 18:40:42 SimonRC: what, like, really? the words? 18:40:52 yeah 18:40:58 oearjan: true, islam and muslim are both "SLM" 18:40:58 xD 18:41:16 Shitty Lactating M— no, this acronym isn't working. 18:41:49 madbrain: why isn't muslim mslm? 18:41:55 which in those languages mean they're the same root... of course, that gets lost in loaning and they become two different morphemes 18:42:08 oklopol: it's M+SLM yes 18:42:17 oklopol: it's derived 18:42:24 oh you actually know something, i thought you just meant they have those consonants 18:42:36 Sadism, Loving, Masochism 18:42:45 (was just making sure i didn't imagine the m, basically) 18:43:07 oklopol: arab languages use sets of 3 consonants as roots, and derive them by adding different patterns of vowels and extra consonants 18:44:10 cool. 18:44:24 so there's only 17,576 valid roots in arabic 18:44:30 obviously english is mostly concatenative+various irregularities all over the place so that mechanism is lost in loans 18:44:44 WATCH OUT INDIANS! YER DERN ANTI-MERICAN LANGUAGE GONA COME TO AN END WHEN WE INVENT US SOME MORE WORDS! 18:45:19 ehird: that's kinda like in chinese: chinese has only about 5000 morphemes 18:45:20 ehird: they have 26 consonants? 18:45:22 ooh, that's another one to my list of crimes: speaking English natively 18:45:30 oklopol: oops :-D 18:45:38 which are combined into thousands of compound words 18:45:44 oklopol: also i hate you 18:45:46 why so 18:45:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:45:51 RUINING MY JOKE 18:46:06 okay they have 18:46:17 one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen 18:46:21 fifteen sixteen seventeen 18:46:28 eighteen nineteen twenty twenty one twenty two twenty three 18:46:36 twenty four twenty five twenty six twenty seven 18:46:54 OKAY 7.62559758 * 10^12 ROOTS THEN 18:47:07 are those all english numbers? 18:47:08 SO WE HAVE TO MAKE UP A FEW MORE WORDS 18:47:09 SO WHAT?! 18:47:14 arab is weird 18:47:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language#Consonants 18:47:24 hell of a lot of consonants 18:47:43 only two vowels too? 18:47:51 so 28, huh 18:47:51 "The Arabic alphabet has 29 basic letters." 18:47:55 28 consonants? 18:47:58 oh, must've misunderstood the table 18:48:03 27 i said? 18:48:05 21952 18:48:05 or is it 28 18:48:06 two? i thought it had 3 which could be long or short... 18:48:09 did i count wrong 18:48:15 a i u 18:48:18 oerjan: argh i am so confused 18:48:23 HOW MANY CONSONANTS DOES ARABIC HAVE 18:48:30 madbrain, ehird: i got 28 by a quick look, may be wrong. 18:48:42 i'm not sure what it means that there are two characters in each box 18:48:55 oops, I swapped my ^ arguments kekekekekeke 18:49:00 oklopol: one is ipa or english or w/e 18:49:01 i think 18:49:05 ehird: the arabic alphabet is basically consonantal and vowels are an afterthought iiuc 18:49:07 anyway 21,952 then 18:49:08 SO LIMITED 18:49:28 oerjan: langton's ant touches an infinite number of squares with any possible initial configuration, has this already been ruined for you? 18:50:09 i'm sure you love trying to solve my homework (this one i've solved) 18:50:22 ruined how 18:50:31 seen/found proof 18:50:38 wat. 18:50:39 english has, uhm, 24 consonants by comparison, not many less 18:50:47 oklopol: i'm not sure i may have seen it mentioned 18:50:49 ehird: it's a problem, you have to prove that 18:50:52 *, i 18:50:54 homework??? where?? 18:50:54 how is it ruining 18:50:55 :P 18:51:12 english has many more vowels though :D 18:51:14 if you know the solution, there's nothing to solve 18:51:17 * Sgeo convinced his dad that an Active Worlds subscription will help him with classes 18:51:19 fax: langton's ant 18:51:31 Sgeo: how? 18:51:54 Well, bots for AW can be written in C or C++, and I'm taking a C++ class, so.. 18:52:08 do you make bots? 18:52:20 Congratulations! You are either the best convincer ever or your dad is the most convincable ever. 18:52:39 oklopol, planning to 18:52:42 (BETTER THAN CONGRATULATIONS: Spatulations) 18:52:59 ehird, probably the latter 18:53:13 Well, kind of 18:53:25 He didn't really ask questions >.> 18:53:42 Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr he just doesn't really care all that much 18:53:52 ehird: btw all those letters in the [[WP:Arabic alphabet]] table are consonants, it's just some double occasionally as vowels 18:54:04 ish 18:54:54 yeah, arabic doesn't put much emphasis on vowels 18:55:40 the number of possible vowel patterns is limited, so if you add enough extra information in the writing, they become unambiguous 18:55:49 that also works in hebrew 18:56:31 Dear Firefox: Please stop randomly freezing on me. Love, Sgeo 18:56:39 a language that's all vowels would be fun 18:56:46 (Yes, I know that technically nothing (or at least, very little) a computer does is random) 18:56:47 Sgeo: Stop using Firefox. —ehird 18:57:26 ehird: dunno if that's plausible, although you can definitely have a language with lots of vowels and not so many consonants for instance 18:57:44 the whole fun is that it's all vowels 18:57:50 so it sounds like you're just doing baby-style vocalisations! 18:58:55 ehird: ah, but then /i,u/ would turn into /j,w/, then probably /J\,b/ and eventually /t~k p/ 18:59:12 due to the speed at which you'd have to talk 18:59:14 Well, forbid any such pesky combinations then. 18:59:51 that's pretty much impossible, the vowel inventory would expand until one vowel changes into /i/ and one into /u/ 19:01:06 :< 19:01:12 In fact, once /i,u/ turned into consonants, then /e,o/ would raise to /i,u/ and then in turn become consonants too 19:01:14 Well, why would you have to talk quickly? 19:01:25 Just take it sloooooooowly. ooooooooooooooooooooooy. 19:01:29 -!- boily has joined. 19:01:34 * ehird boils boily 19:01:37 Now you're boilier. 19:01:37 well, the less possible different syllables you have, the faster you have to speak 19:01:54 madbrain: UNLESS YOU'RE RETARDED. 19:02:00 Just sayin' 19:02:16 ehird: I wonder what is my boiling point? 19:02:16 kinda like spanish, the have less possible vowels etc... so they speak twice as fast to compensate :D 19:02:20 Yep, that killed the conversation 19:02:27 but it works because they have less slow sounds 19:02:33 Bad timing for me to say that huh 19:02:43 and they have less slow sounds bevause they have less possible vowels etc.. :D 19:02:51 boily: Evidently <= room temperature, if you're boily now. 19:03:05 You could be in some sort of heating contraption though, technically. 19:03:14 My calculation is that you have to have about 50bits per second 19:03:19 Where do you get your durable keyboards and mice?! 19:03:40 madbrain: you're slowist. 19:03:52 so you have some languages with huge syllables full of information (say, 10 bits) that go slower (like 5 syllables/s) 19:03:55 apparently swedes talk much slower than danes, i seem to recall reading recently. i don't think the phoneme set sizes are that different... 19:04:10 although pronunciation certainly is 19:04:40 inversely you have languages with small syllables (like ~6bit in japanese) but they can go faster since all the syllables are simple (say, 8 syllables/s) 19:05:34 madbrain: optimising a language for efficient bit transfer would be fun 19:05:41 So it would be hard to have a vowel set that is large enough while also being fast, since the faster the vowel, the less time you have to glide to the next one so the more approximative they become 19:05:51 that is, you can talk quickly (thus feeling like you're communicating faster) but with enough bits to be efficient 19:05:54 ehird: yes :D 19:06:00 voila, everyone feels like they're talking really quickly 19:06:11 and they are, just not by that much 19:06:56 So with vowels only, suppose you'd have to reach 64 syllables at least, can you do that? :D 19:07:43 No, but oklopol can. 19:08:02 I CAN! 19:08:18 64 syllables what 19:08:38 including diphthongs and triphthongs? 19:08:41 ~60 different possible syllables 19:09:00 oerjan: but that's dangerous, basically you're putting in /j,w/ with those :D 19:09:45 don't forget reversed "h" 19:09:47 madbrain: do you mean you'd have to speak @ 64 syllables/s? 19:09:52 * boily consults his sampa table... 19:09:56 so you want 64 pure vowels? i vaguely recall there's some south-east asian language which comes close 19:10:05 plus you'd have syllable boundary problems probably... still better than a fully pure vowel system 19:10:18 STOP CORRUPTING THIS FOLLY'S PURITY 19:10:37 oerjan: well, no, it could have diphthongs I guess :D 19:11:12 oh tones could help 19:11:21 ehird: no, not speak @ 64 syllable/s, you have to have at least 64 different possible syllables in your language 19:11:27 Ah. 19:11:31 oerjan: true! 19:11:46 madbrain: how fast would you have to speak then for 50 b/s? 19:11:48 er, wait 19:11:55 depends on how fast you can speak a syllable ofc 19:12:10 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:12:11 what language doesn't have 64 syllables? 19:12:12 since that means 1 syllable = 6 bits 19:12:13 well, suppose you have 8 pure vowels only, that's 3 bits, so you'd have to speak at about 17 syll/s 19:12:18 oklopol: one only using vowels 19:12:20 maybe 19:12:27 madbrain: oklopol can do that! 19:12:29 *do that 19:12:30 (probably) 19:12:46 with 3 finnish vowels, 512 syllables 19:13:22 oklopol: hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language might have less than 64, or more... 19:13:38 oklopol: rotokas 19:14:04 7 consonants and 5 vowels 19:14:07 ah, yes, Pirah... 19:14:15 Pirahã can be whistled, hummed, or encoded in music. <<< are you sure it's even a well-defined question? 19:14:19 hm wait 19:14:27 oerjan: and only one vowel per syllable? 19:14:31 it's not pure cv, as the final s shows 19:14:41 so probably won't work 19:14:50 oklopol: how many syllables of pure vowels can you speak per second 19:14:51 then it's <= 70 19:14:52 rotokas afaik has many non CV syllables too 19:15:21 madbrain: you're a linguist like augur? 19:15:29 conlanger i think 19:15:34 well, not professionally 19:15:35 augur is too, admittedly 19:15:37 ehird: 8 isn't too hard 19:15:44 err 19:15:46 it's more like a nerdy hobby to me :D 19:15:48 madbrain: does student count as professional, if not augur isn't either :P 19:15:50 that's 8 vowels 19:15:52 so... 19:16:02 madbrain: you're not boring like augur, thankfully! 19:16:03 i kinda put them in separate syllables if i just talk in vowels 19:16:06 um, don't tell augur i said t haht 19:16:08 *that 19:16:32 ehird: i'm sure augur doesn't know his linguism bored you 19:16:34 *bores 19:17:02 anyway i need to leave irc now, remember to love each other like i do 19:17:03 -> 19:17:32 a finn loving? ha! 19:19:20 the finns cannot love it would mess up the sauna culture 19:20:29 how about making a language with only 10 consonants and no consonant-vowel-consonant syllables but 5000+ syllables? :D 19:20:38 * ehird cries. my poor pixel font is being ruined by the impossibility of "m"! 19:20:59 m? 19:21:08 ehird: what is your char size? 19:21:09 yeah for m you have to compromise 19:21:14 you try making an m glyph with serifs that fits in 7x10 19:21:19 (8x12; rest of pixels used for spacing) 19:21:29 most fonts I've seen make the "m" with a only 1 pixel wide bar 19:21:30 especially one that fits in with my other characters... 19:21:36 this includes fixedsys 19:21:44 madbrain: yes, my non-bold chars don't have such doubled d lines 19:21:46 my bold chars do though 19:21:50 maybe i'll do bold m and debold it 19:21:59 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 19:22:19 k was a challenge too but i'm semi-satisfied with what i have 19:22:20 ehird: http://elinux.org/Kernel_Size_Tuning_Guide 19:22:25 like, fixedsys m is like: 19:22:34 Rugxulo: why thank you! 19:22:40 ###### 19:22:41 ## # ## 19:22:42 ## # ## 19:22:43 try 1110100 0101010 ... 0101011 19:22:43 ## # ## 19:22:48 Rugxulo: especially the list of config options 19:23:04 SimonRC: is each block vertical or horizontal 19:23:06 I guess vertical 19:23:13 wait, no 19:23:14 hmm 19:23:19 (repeat the middle bit) 19:23:21 also, unrelated, but I did hack that tiny DOS Befunge93 interpreter again, it's now 1024 bytes w/ simple LFN and 386 check (so it won't crash on older cpus) 19:23:24 ehird: also you can use the top contour of the letter as a cue 19:23:57 SimonRC: oh that's good 19:23:57 ehird: or use the "empty row" at the right of the char, making it 8 wide instead of 7 19:24:05 that 1 at the very end makes it look good 19:24:17 it's not fat at all like my other characters, but I have to compromise for m, it seems 19:24:18 thanks 19:24:21 madbrain: yes, I'm considering that too 19:24:31 ehird: uh, ok 19:24:32 madbrain: but it'd make the neighbouring character bash right into it 19:24:34 you said you wanted serigs 19:24:46 SimonRC: yeah, but I couldn't get them looking good 19:25:00 I didn't know how it would look, since I just typed it in 19:25:13 or you can reduce the spaces between the lines so that they touch, it should be readable still since you'll recognize it by density instead of by line configuration 19:26:02 another avenue to explore might be making the middle line shorter 19:26:05 it seems to look okay 19:26:28 i really like most of this font so far... 19:26:50 madbrain: making the lines touch would look very unlike the other characters; they're very thin 19:27:24 you're making it only 1 line thick? 19:27:39 yep, apart from the bold characters 19:27:44 the look so far is very distinctive 19:27:47 then m should not be a problem! 19:27:58 ah, but I need to make it fit — and the other characters look fit 19:28:00 plus, serifs 19:28:06 I think I have a very good candidate, though! 19:28:15 well, without bold you have ample space for that 19:28:26 #..#..# 19:28:30 ssh 19:28:33 stop sending for a sec 19:28:33 *shh 19:28:37 [[ 19:28:38 ### # 19:28:38 # # # 19:28:38 # # # 19:28:39 # # # 19:28:39 # # # 19:28:40 ### ### 19:28:42 ]] 19:28:44 it looks pretty good 19:28:48 think I should reduce those serifs though 19:29:08 ah, but you can also let the serif go into the empty line! 19:29:27 but none of my other characters do that; and the spacing is nice — it fits with the outlines; the characters breath a lot 19:29:29 so to speak 19:30:08 madbrain: you can continue sending that char you were sending now 19:31:07 how about 19:31:07 # # ## 19:31:07 ## # # 19:31:07 # # # 19:31:07 # # # 19:31:08 # # ## 19:31:30 the assymetry on row 2 isn't very nice 19:31:49 dude, this is serif country 19:31:54 we hate symmetry :P 19:32:18 I liked your one 19:32:19 madbrain: lemme copy that into my image editor 19:32:23 * Rugxulo finds compression funny yet weird ... 7za a -mx9 produces 1025-byte file from a 1024-byte .COM while aPACK -x produces 1023 bytes 19:32:34 madbrain: btw, my letters are mostly 6px high 19:32:37 I'll adjust for that 19:32:42 they aren't designed to work on things that small 19:32:52 obviously ;-) 19:32:57 SimonRC: ahh, but the serifs make my font what it is 19:32:57 also if you use half-solid pixels you can use to anti-alias the shape, too 19:33:02 it'd be bland otherwise 19:33:06 madbrain: half-solid? 19:33:13 although 624 -s gets 1016 19:33:25 well, like, say, white-gray-black instead of just white-black 19:33:49 oops 19:33:53 madbrain: that m you showed has a problem many of my ms have had — a little dirt-looking artifact when zoomed out onn a high-res screen 19:34:02 madbrain: also, naw, don't have nothin' like that 19:34:16 I meant "Rugxulo: the compression programs aren't designed to work on anything that small" 19:34:21 ah :D 19:34:26 another option might be dropping serifs on m 19:34:31 yeah, nice ambiguity 19:34:49 madbrain: considered that; I definitely don't think a serif on the middle line is practical 19:35:18 * ehird considers something; tries it 19:35:30 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 19:36:12 nah 19:36:18 I'm gonna try a bold m and debold it 19:36:22 thanks for all the suggestions 19:36:24 really helps 19:36:37 oops, haven't done a bold l yet 19:36:38 in really tiny typefacse, you get M being things like 111 111 101, and it can work 19:36:59 SimonRC: yeah, I did something similar with my 4x3 typeface (with spacing 5x4) 19:37:00 is this a 1-bit font? 19:37:03 yes 19:37:10 The rfk86 m is "110 111 101"; n is "110 101 101". 19:37:15 you need sub-pixel rendering! 19:37:20 like what Apple do 19:37:42 fizzie: ouch 1-pixel difference 19:37:42 SimonRC: http://typophile.com/node/61920 :-) 19:38:07 they tend to look a bit rainbowy though 19:38:09 (as interesting for the font as it is for gawping at StoneCypher's serious mental illness) 19:38:33 also, Apple aren't the first nor last to do subpixel font rendering 19:38:37 even Microsoft do it (ClearType) 19:38:44 and it's the default in Ubuntu 19:38:54 SimonRC: Well... if you have ff3.5 or something that does font-embedding like that (and scripts on), you can see it "live" at http://zem.fi/rfk86/ [not a shameless plug at all] -- it's not so bad. And actually both had one "101" more, since it's 6x4-sized cells. 19:40:08 ehird: looks like Linux 2.4 got updated today (2.4.37.7) 19:40:37 * ehird realises he fucked up a character width in the bold font 19:40:38 f u c k 19:40:55 like, the VGA font has serifs only on some letters 19:40:56 for unlawful carnal knowledge 19:41:03 eh, I can sort it out later 19:41:22 when i enter them as bit arrays :-) 19:41:57 Is it meant for a terminal? 19:42:25 Mainly for English text, although I like it so much that I've considered using it for a terminal. 19:42:34 Admittedly monospaced is kinda crap for English. 19:42:45 linux-2.4.37.7.tar.bz2 -- 29.7 MB (ouch) 19:43:01 Yeah, a whole 30 MiB? I have to buy a new drive, man. 19:43:03 I'd go for a font with 2 pixel wide lines for terminal though 19:43:05 Because I'm from 1980, dude. 19:43:08 Which is why I'm saying man, dude. 19:43:16 Ie make bold the default 19:43:17 madbrain: Then use the bold variant. 19:43:26 But in the Unix world we don't do that crap. :D 19:43:47 linux-2.4.0.tar.bz218.9 MB1/3/01 6:00:00 PM 19:43:47 19:44:13 so it basically doubled in size 19:44:48 Yes, Rugxulo, technology is going down the drain, 10.8 MiB increase over eight years is basically the downfall of humanity, people who don't support the 286 are incompetent. 19:44:54 but not as bad as XP (1.5 GB) to Vista (16 GB) 19:44:55 Please stop complaining about it. 19:45:34 if it wasn't an epidemic, I wouldn't care 19:45:45 but when everything (Python, Perl, etc.) all bloats up ad nauseum, it gets annoying 19:45:46 If you *have* to complain, you should compare compiled images containing a mostly-identical set of compiled-in drivers; it's not like the source size is so terribly important. 19:46:02 Not only is the kernel getting bigger and bigger (including all the modules it uses) but they took years to add support for $obscure_hardware_that_noone_uses! 19:46:07 *cough* 19:46:22 IT INCREASES SIZE? Strip it out strip it out! 19:46:25 DAYS PASS 19:46:36 Why doesn't Linux boot on my IBM PC after updating? 19:46:40 sigh... 19:46:54 * Rugxulo found TinyPython, wonder if it's any good ... 19:47:28 I think I've found a sudden affinity for the #esoteric-should-be-about-esolangs-only folks. I announce the new creation of ##bloat-epidemic. 19:47:45 Gogogogogo 19:48:04 good no bloat, only one user :-) 19:48:06 but which would have the ColorForth discussion in it?> 19:48:13 #forth probably 19:48:23 Rugxulo: IT WILL NEVER BE BLOATED WITH MORE PEOPLE 19:48:25 thank god 19:48:45 woot, optimal size now ;-) 19:49:05 Rugxulo: you know what ColorForth is, right? 19:49:05 hmmm, making a hugely parallel cpu requires solving a few data routing problems: 19:49:15 (I) Routing problem (easy) 19:49:18 (Y) Routing problem (easy) 19:49:36 (reverse Y) Routing problem (harder) 19:49:47 (feedback) Routing problem (even harder) 19:50:15 huh? 19:50:18 madbrain: http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/ 19:50:21 Memory address interference problem (even harder) 19:50:27 Feynman solved 'em :-P 19:51:06 SimonRC, I've heard (and seen) a few websites on ColorForth, never used it personally though 19:51:15 ehird, I'm having a nostalgia trip for OS 9 and older atm 19:51:19 hypercard yay! 19:51:22 AnMaster: k. 19:51:46 post-sys7 sucks hugely, post-sys6 sucks quite a bit 19:51:49 ooh I found something on called "adobe golive 4.0.1" on my ibook. Didn't remember that. 19:52:02 sorry, I just find it annoying that Linux now requires more RAM than Win95 did HD space :-/ 19:52:02 os 9 sucks in a colossal manner unsurpassed by any other OS, even Windows 19:52:11 doubt it 19:52:34 madbrain: care to give me fixedsys's m? 19:52:37 *fixedsys' 19:53:35 ###### 19:53:37 ## # ## 19:53:39 ## # ## 19:53:41 ## # ## 19:53:42 ## # ## 19:53:45 ## ## 19:53:52 Well that's simple :P 19:54:18 fixedsys has 2-px wide vertical lines 19:55:43 It's such a shame that optical illusion-style tricks don't really work at 7x10. 19:55:52 At 4x3 I even faked the slant on the n... 19:59:31 * ehird tweaks bold c and e and maybe d and g to make the metrics more similar to bold a (and thus more similar to roman a, c, d, e and g) 20:00:06 I think ehird's going to kill someone http://www.turtleflight.com/mbh/behavior_table.gif 20:00:19 Sgeo the great repeater. 20:00:34 ehird, I have both PPC and 68k emulated here :) 20:00:36 Last time, when I posted that, you weren't here, iirc 20:00:42 one is 7.5.5 the other being 9.0.4 20:00:43 AnMaster: I don't care. 20:00:45 Sgeo: I logread. 20:00:55 Tweaking my characters feels so wrong; destroying my wonderful babies! 20:01:11 Sgeo, what is that supposed to be? 20:01:20 When you logread, I can't see your reaction 20:01:29 AnMaster, Magsbot behavior table 20:01:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:01:52 Magsbot: http://www.turtleflight.com/magine/mb.html 20:02:03 Sgeo: You can see my reaction if you logread too. 20:02:30 Ok, what day? 20:02:57 FOund it 20:03:09 My tweaked characters are slightly uglier but more consistent :( 20:03:30 Oh, there we go. 20:03:31 Same prettiness now, exce— 20:03:38 Oh, that must be why I tweaked them. 20:04:37 They are more consistent, granted; but they do not look fat any more. 20:04:51 The metrics are now matched, but the perceived metrics are ruined. 20:05:45 Maybe if I put them back, and tweak the a instead... 20:06:15 What's a bit strange is that in this gnome-screensaver, there's a "leave a message" option; the message is then shown when the actual user unlocks the screen. The strangeness is in that the dialog showing the message has no special labels, just the message you leave; and it has both "Cancel" and "OK" buttons in it. 20:06:26 http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/toxic-cities-pollution-lifestyle-real-estate-toxic-cities.html hm, maybe I shouldn't go to Pycon :/ 20:07:27 Yes, everyone in the cities listed there die days after arriving. 20:07:29 I left some sort of "aaaggagagah zombies!" message on ineiros' laptop the other day, and it was a bit confusing to see a mostly unlabeled "zombies! ok or cancel?" popup as a result. 20:07:44 (Offensive, less sarcastic response: Translation: Hurrrrrrrrrr) 20:07:53 fizzie: :D 20:08:13 which did you click, be ehonest 20:08:19 *be honest 20:08:44 It was him doing the screen-unlocking (and clicking), but I think it was "OK". 20:09:08 ZOMBIES ARE NOT OK 20:10:00 Magnatune's end-of-track ads ruin Riding the Faders :( 20:10:09 ehird: I think he's a zombie sympathizer. 20:10:10 They're OK if cooked well and served on toast with saurkraut and Russian dressing. 20:10:53 Funny 20:10:54 All these tracks are supposed to be played without interuption 20:10:55 So is your mom 20:11:03 That was at Gregor 20:11:07 DO NOT GET OFFENDED SGEO :P 20:11:24 Although Sgeo's mom DOES ruin Riding the Faders. 20:11:35 ehird: See, here's a publicly available picture of him: http://irc-galleria.net/user/ineiros/picture/58380030 20:11:41 And Sgeo's mom is also supposed to be played without interruption. 20:11:51 SHE IS ALSO DEAD DID I MENTION 20:11:58 You must now feel bad like I felt bad. 20:12:07 (I did not feel bad for oerjan because nobody cares about oerjan.) 20:12:16 ((JOKE OKAY JOKE)) 20:12:49 fizzie: he looks ambiguously gendered 20:12:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:12:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:14:35 ehird: Well, so's you! 20:16:32 -!- fungot has joined. 20:16:55 ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S 20:16:56 Defined. 20:16:58 ^save 20:16:58 OK. 20:19:13 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 20:22:56 -!- Gregor has quit ("Leaving"). 20:23:30 * ehird decides to go back to n later 20:24:08 but it's such an addictive game 20:24:19 What game? 20:24:21 har har har 20:24:22 N 20:24:23 n 20:24:25 Oh 20:24:42 dammit, someone link me to that unapproved-of swf'd N 20:24:53 ...you mean that's not the official N game? 20:24:55 need me some ninja-tappin' action ILLICITLY IN MY BROWSER 20:24:59 Sgeo: it's identical 20:25:01 extracted from the .exe thingy 20:25:23 I thought that the .swf ... I didn't realize that it was intended to be distributed as a .exe 20:25:57 Let me guess, I've shattered your infinite nostalgia and now your mind is blown in an incredibly profound way. 20:26:10 I don't have N related nostalgia 20:26:17 Somehow 20:27:46 madbrain: what do you think of my lowercase k, by the way? I think I did quite well 20:27:46 ## 20:27:47 # 20:27:47 # 20:27:47 # ## 20:27:48 # # 20:27:49 # # 20:27:51 # # 20:27:53 ## # 20:27:55 # # 20:27:57 ### ## 20:28:12 quite big 20:28:12 yeah looks good 20:28:23 my bold uppercase k is a bit more iffy, though 20:28:44 ### 20:28:44 ## 20:28:45 ## 20:28:45 ## 20:28:45 ## ### 20:28:46 ## ## 20:28:46 #### 20:28:48 ##### 20:28:50 ## ## 20:28:52 ### ### 20:29:09 specifically, the lower bit looks like it's curved 20:29:10 reverse serif looks weird 20:29:33 you should make the serif go into the "forbidden area" instead 20:29:51 but it's forbidden for a reason! :P 20:29:56 it doesn't really look weird zoomed out tbh 20:30:01 just a bit curvaceous 20:30:16 well, it'll connect a bit with the next letter, but that's ok actually 20:30:28 well, I'll consider it 20:30:41 1 pixel is ok 20:31:01 what doesn't work is when you have a whole line that connects :) 20:32:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:32:10 my g having no serif looks weird next to my p 20:32:11 oh well 20:32:21 it's also wiider by one pixel in the maain area bit 20:32:21 eh 20:32:21 What are you going to use these letters on? 20:32:31 how abot replacing rows 8 and 9 with 0111100 0110110 ? 20:32:36 It's a little pixel font at the best size (in my opinion) for English text! 20:32:40 SimonRC: in which letter? 20:32:45 bold k? 20:32:45 bold k 20:32:59 would look less squashed 20:33:46 no, the lack of serifs makes it look very weird 20:34:03 huh? 20:34:14 tat keeps the serifs 20:34:32 umm, I'm not seeing it here 20:34:37 maybe I drew it wrong; make a .png? 20:35:22 wait, I think I see what you mean 20:35:35 umm, not sure 20:35:36 it looks jagged 20:35:43 and doesn't fit with the other chars. 20:37:13 I suppose it is ok for serifs to connect with other letters, because they are intended to keep the eye on the row 20:37:56 i'm just using them for flavour ;-) 20:38:04 *:-P 20:38:06 i hate ;-) 20:38:10 you think it'll work there 20:38:11 but nope 20:38:17 just looks shiteating and/or suggestive like always 20:39:46 know what'll be horrific? 20:39:47 italics 20:40:39 italics you could do by using the righmost row as spacing on the bottom, but the leftmost one on the top 20:40:55 interesting 20:41:29 onto r 20:43:00 my r seems a bit crooked at the end! oh well, I can fix it later 20:44:01 *gulp* 20:44:01 s 20:45:39 That was... worryingly easy. 20:46:51 computers must really infuriate typesetters in some ways. Now everyone thinks that slanted is the same as italic 20:47:04 Indeed. 20:47:18 Thankfully no systems nowadays ship with commonly-used fonts without proper italics. 20:50:44 Some guy thinks he's going to start a company that.. resells publishing from pfmpricing.com or something. I basically told him that I'll help him set up the sample site, but I'm not putting any money, or much time, into what I feel is a scam 20:51:14 Sgeo: offering help to people he thinks are scammers and then proceeding to tell us all about how he's not going to really try hard since 2009. 20:52:53 I don't think this person is a scammer, just an idiot. It's pfm pricing's services that make me think "scam" 20:54:05 * ehird decides to go onto italics 20:54:26 Sgeo: So why not tell him he's an idiot and... not help? 20:54:43 madbrain: what did you say about italic spacing? 20:55:11 Because it's very little effort to "help" in the way that I offered? 20:55:31 why do anything for him? 20:55:37 Sgeo: So helping an idiot in a scam-related activity is fine as long as you (a) don't do much work and (b) tell us all about it? 20:55:41 Dude, get a blog. 20:56:41 It's either I help him, or he pays $500 for the company to set something up.. although in the latter case, I suspect they'd tell him he misunderstands everything 20:57:27 Helping an idiot save $500 to set up an idiotic scheme related to a scam? And thus, in your opinion, preventing an opportunity that might make him stop? 20:57:44 Your logic keeps getting more and more robust! Wait, no, the other thing. Flimsy. 20:58:27 At any rate, I seem to have lost contact with him, so it may be a moot point 20:59:12 The bad thing about all this is, I was talking to him at the same time someone online was telling me about a project I support, so now my feelings about this guy have partially transferred over to the thing I support :/ 20:59:36 You have serious issues. 21:00:14 Sgeo: the curse of indisciminant associative memory 21:00:25 you should see what I have for some of the meeting roms in my office 21:00:27 SimonRC: You too. 21:00:58 it's mostly a case of remembering the one every time the other is experienced 21:02:05 * ehird attempts to draw an italic glyph, fails horribly 21:05:14 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt Now, if some people are more on than yesterday (when there was 8 hours with only join/quit), can you tell me if it is good, or if I missed anything? 21:05:51 The universe didn't exist ten thousand years ago, and there's only one God. Why do you have Christians? 21:05:58 (↑ Joke.) 21:06:23 It is a Forgotten Realms campaign setting for D&D game 21:07:37 * Sgeo doesn't play D&D, but would somewhat like to get started 21:07:44 * Sgeo has GMed Paranoia 21:08:21 heh 21:08:35 When I played it, I was.. not that good 21:08:52 * Sgeo put himself in danger to save another troubleshooter >.> 21:08:53 This is 3.5 edition, which I would recommend 21:09:26 I can give some hints on 3.5 edition if you would like it too, because I played it and am good at defensive play in D&D 21:09:42 http://imgur.com/PgUuU.jpg What's wrong with this picture? Answer via /msg. 21:10:50 I can see what's wrong 21:10:58 I can see what's wrong immediately 21:11:01 ditto 21:11:22 the newspaper pose is a more subtle way to show that 21:11:41 Bah, you're all too details-oriented. :P 21:11:58 ehird: ooh, ooh ooh, let me try testing detail orientation 21:12:02 * SimonRC finds the video 21:14:17 avoid spoilers until you are done watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE 21:14:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:14:53 (also, ehird's picture has a seriously SBHJ level of jpeg artefacts) 21:15:02 Can you sent text messages by telephone by morse-code? 21:15:13 SimonRC, seen it 21:15:16 :-( 21:15:26 I got it from Phil Platt I think 21:15:32 *Plait 21:15:36 But I haven't found the issue with ehird's picture yet :/ 21:15:43 nobody tell him 21:15:44 zzo38: depends on the phone 21:15:51 ehird, I gave up 21:16:20 zzo38: if it's a pocket computer, you can just download a morse-to-sms app 21:16:51 Sgeo: ur unf fvk qvtvgf ba rnpu unaq 21:17:08 * ehird searches for a trackball 21:17:14 SimonRC: i said no telling 21:17:16 However, I wonder if you can tell me a proper answer for the Vyb_back_story question, like, do you like this?, and, did I forget anything?, and, is it good?, and, etc.? 21:17:23 SimonRC, um, no 21:17:26 * ehird decodes it 21:17:41 not that 21:17:41 I don't know how to assess campign settings 21:17:47 i didn't even notice that 21:18:10 odd 21:18:51 SimonRC: I meant, like, if you have no keyboard and are sending from a standard telephone, or, if you do the reverse, SMS text -> landline. First it should check for fax and TTY, and then, send to voice by morse code, text-to-speech, or spell out, or numeric, etc, depending on some options 21:18:58 grr, why aren't there more mice/trackballs with real third buttons as well as mousewheels 21:19:12 Ok, so either SimonRC didn't get it either, or he was messing with me 21:19:20 The latter 21:19:30 No 21:19:31 Former, I guess 21:19:46 well, I didi spot something odd 21:20:04 /msg it 21:20:12 The file is my character's background story text, in case you forgot or didn't know.. 21:20:29 no, I mean I did spot something odd that I then spelt out in rot-13 on the channel 21:20:35 ah. 21:20:38 well it's not what i meant 21:23:23 SimonRC: noticed none 21:23:27 don't see why i should've 21:24:09 no need to notice stuff you're not explicitly asked to notice 21:24:51 well, it can be helpful 21:25:19 oklopol, except when watching a magician 21:25:21 for example studies of "lucky" and "unlucky" people tend to show that the lucky ones notice irrelevant details more easily 21:25:44 heh 21:26:09 i'm a pretty stereotypical scientist, i have no idea what's going on 21:26:23 usually 21:28:12 O, I have not heard of those studies. But it seems correct, a bit 21:29:14 Sgeo: I'm just fucking with you, it's the fingers 21:29:33 ...oh 21:29:38 the finger thing was trivial 21:29:47 Sgeo: Quick! How much did I just shatter your world? 21:30:32 TBH all it did to me was give me that slight sick feeling I get when people make me feel stupid in certain specific ways. 21:30:37 SimonRC: your rot13 is wrong 21:30:39 Beyond my self-irritation that I didn't include that as a possibility when talking to SimonRC, not much 21:30:53 assuming i guessed the sentence correctly 21:31:00 SimonRC: You're crazy! Just like everyone else here. 21:31:04 i don't know rot-13 anymore, it seems 21:31:15 oklopol: it says "he has six digits on each hand" 21:31:23 oh digits, damn 21:31:34 your MOTHER has etc. 21:31:37 BRB 21:31:42 i forgot there are synonyms 21:31:47 grr, why aren't there any three button mice with separate wheels 21:32:01 I have see them 21:32:15 the wheel in the middle of the buton is a bit inconvinient 21:32:23 or, you need the openoffice mouse 21:32:26 that's why you put it at the very top 21:32:30 with about a zillion buttons on it 21:32:31 or to the side 21:32:50 lol@taht mouse 21:32:55 perfectly describes openoffice 21:32:56 *that 21:32:58 nice joke 21:33:21 Preferably it'd be a trackball for me 21:33:27 So, say, trackball on thumb, 21:33:36 three buttons on the next fingers 21:33:45 and a wheel below the third button, perhaps? 21:33:53 Or perhaps between the first button and the wheel. 21:33:59 This episode makes me recall the fucking Basil puzzle again, which made me lose my appetite a little for a day or two until I learnt to ignore it. Nevery again will I doubt plausibility when a character in some story become dangerously obsessed with something. 21:34:17 Wait. OpenOfficeMouse ISN'T a joke? 21:34:17 *Never again 21:34:19 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 21:34:26 lol 21:34:32 SimonRC: See, no, you were right to be skeptic. 21:34:42 SimonRC: You just didn't account for the fact that you're crazy. :P 21:34:42 skeptic? when? 21:34:51 "Nevery again will I doubt plausibility when a character in some story become dangerously obsessed with something." 21:34:55 ok 21:35:04 well if I can be that mad, they can be more than that mad 21:35:25 it's the way that other people were finding it easy that I didn't like 21:35:36 Basil puzzle? 21:35:42 Terrible idea: Keyboardmouse. It's a keyboard you can move around! 21:35:49 And it tracks as a mouse. 21:38:38 Sgeo: might not exist now that nonlogic has gone down 21:38:52 who created it BTW? 21:39:23 'cause if that person didn't take backups of the website, they might want to contact me 21:39:51 the website was world-readable on nonlogic, and I took a copy 21:40:01 (then I told them it was world-readable) 21:40:17 and nonlogic went down, so I expect they might want a backup 21:40:49 if they didn't mak eone themselves 21:43:11 Rodger created it. 21:43:33 http://imgur.com/4OPEu.png I'd pay $100 for this trackball 21:43:44 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:44:00 -!- ehird has joined. 21:44:06 he said, before crashing and burning. 21:45:00 shouldn't amazon and he like had 100 differnt trackballs available? 21:45:10 *and the like 21:45:18 SimonRC: *have *different 21:45:26 yeah 21:45:28 Also, nope. Basically nobody makes trackballs any moree. 21:45:29 *more 21:45:44 And the ones that exist are either pre-scroll wheel, or one-button-scroll-wheel-another-button. 21:45:53 My design there is unique, as far as I can tell. 21:46:20 get out a hacksaw and some glue? 21:46:21 And far superior, too — you can use your... um... finger-right-of-thumb (I suck at the finger names) to scroll, which is much more comfortable than using your middle finger. 21:46:33 index finger 21:46:34 fore 21:46:35 And yet your other fingers can rest on the left and middle buttons. 21:46:45 So you can follow links and open new tabs in a web browser while scrolling and mousing. 21:46:46 On Thursday, I was writing something and made up something a bit strange: Matrix accounting. 21:46:48 or index 21:46:51 and I use my index finger on ordinary mice too 21:47:04 More comfortable, almost as easy to access, much better middle button usage. 21:47:07 SOMEONE MAKE IT QUICK 21:47:08 zzo38: sounds like Matrix management 21:47:21 Matrix accounting is accounting, but with matrix math. 21:47:28 tbh that design is inferior to what a real product would be; the trackball should be lower 21:47:28 right also first finger 21:47:30 But whatever, it's close enough. 21:47:35 weird 21:47:41 It is not very good for recording transactions, but everything else it does correctly 21:47:49 in what sense is it the first one 21:47:50 FAWN OVER IT, PEOPLE 21:47:51 zzo38: the concepts "creative" and "accounting" should not go together 21:47:55 Like, everything in normal accounting has conversions here 21:48:03 -!- Gregor has joined. 21:48:08 You would never actually use it for recording transactions and stuff. 21:48:14 i guess fingers are zero-indexed. 21:48:18 what would it do then? 21:48:18 SimonRC: also, a hacksaw and glue probably wouldn't help. 21:48:29 Gregor: are you the guy who nade the basil puzzle? 21:48:35 No. 21:48:36 It's Rodger. 21:48:37 I told you. 21:48:41 At first I wrote it to figure out how to represent partnership agreements in a matrix. And then I realized that everything in accounting can be represented this way. 21:48:41 ah, missed that 21:48:47 Or was it Roger 21:48:51 Rod?gerTheGreat 21:48:53 rodger the great 21:49:12 rodger the great edible mountain 21:49:25 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 21:49:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:49:42 * Sgeo WTFs at his um, trackpad 21:50:06 I accidentally touch it, and it closes out of a tab 21:50:25 Also, ehird reminded me that I'm hungry >.> 21:50:38 I'm really hungry and really tired but too lazy to eat or sleep. 21:50:58 Oh, and the trackball ought to include a foam rest fit to the trackball's shape. 21:51:24 i'm so full it hurts, but i'm also very thirsty, which is not a good combination, and i'm also too lazy to sleep even though i'm tired 21:51:32 so i think i win 21:52:23 aw darnit. 21:52:23 is that really a bad combination? 21:52:26 dog gammit 21:52:38 SimonRC: can't drink but have to? 21:52:40 ofc 21:52:51 hmm, suppose 21:53:02 SimonRC: i can't drink. 21:53:10 the trick is not to eat that much 21:53:12 ooh, what a fun prompt 21:53:18 ": prompt goes here; " 21:53:22 SimonRC: but it's all-you-can-eat 21:53:25 you can execute it and it's just a nop 21:53:28 ah 21:53:30 and man can i eat 21:53:34 so copy-and-middle-click command repeating becomes easy 21:53:35 * Sgeo recalls people saying that human thirst is broken, but not sure what is meant by that 21:53:45 but also pizza, and that's why i'm so full. 21:54:07 I used to literally live on pizza 21:54:19 YOU MEAN YOU LIVED ON A GIANT... 21:54:21 nm 21:54:27 i've been there 21:54:50 I can't easily eat pizza until I'm full. I lack the practice to absorb that much fat at once and find myself not wanting to eat more even though there is room. 21:54:52 on my last year of high school i basically spent all my days sitting in my armchair eating pizza and watching tv series 21:55:05 I have a ridiculously fast metabolism 21:55:09 SimonRC: pussy 21:55:16 I guess my parent brought me up too healthily. 21:55:17 and so I am always so thin as to be considered dangerously underweight no matter how much I eat! 21:55:21 *parents 21:55:21 which is, uh, fun 21:55:25 if you like being bothered all the time 21:55:40 * Sgeo just doesn't have much of an urge to eat 21:55:47 I love eating. 21:55:58 yeah, food is awesome 21:56:03 people always miss out part of the energy equation... 21:56:06 well i wouldn't go that far 21:56:09 most food is crap 21:56:17 SimonRC: which part 21:56:23 well, then don't buy the crap food 21:56:25 let me rephrase that 21:56:27 what do you mean 21:56:33 delta fat = energy in * digestive efficiency - energy expended 21:56:35 madbrain: i don't 21:57:01 I often see people forgetting that differnet peopl absorb different amounts of energy from the same food 21:57:27 like, if you practice for an eating competition, your digention becomes faster therefore less effective 21:57:32 $ PS1='$(echo ~+)$ ' 21:57:32 feel free to say "wat" 21:57:34 erm 21:57:35 $ PS1='$(echo ~+)$ ' 21:57:37 /Users/ehird$ 21:57:44 "A ~ followed by a + or - is replaced by the value 21:57:44 of $PWD and $OLDPWD respectively." 21:59:08 What software do most people use to make those videos that are just pictures and music? 21:59:24 MS movie maker ;-) 21:59:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:59:36 I don't know if that is a good suggestion or not 22:00:02 Making such an annoying video is a bad idea in itself. 22:00:18 Also: 20 minute tribute video consisting of pictures and music: Good idea or bad idea? 22:00:47 depends on how well it is done and what it is about 22:01:03 Bad idea bad idea bad idea bad IDEA. 22:01:23 It's about a game called Mutation 22:01:49 arrgh IRC is such a fucking time-sink 22:02:02 Although the only reason it's 20min long is because that's the sum of how long all the music from the game as 22:02:03 *was 22:02:27 SimonRC: so go do something else. 22:03:09 SimonRC: do like me and try to do something useful on the side 22:03:18 and do unlike me and manage to actually do it 22:03:26 or should i say undo like me 22:04:54 * SimonRC goes 22:05:08 yeah that might work even better 22:05:16 * oklopol tries to go 22:29:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:36:43 * ehird decides that 22:36:44 [[ 22:36:44 Permission is granted to copy, modify and distribute this work. 22:36:45 22:36:45 THERE IS NO WARRANTY. 22:36:45 ]] 22:36:46 is the best license, or if the permission to use software really isn't implicit, then 22:36:48 [[ 22:36:50 Permission is granted to use, copy, modify and distribute this work. 22:36:52 22:36:54 THERE IS NO WARRANTY. 22:36:56 ]] 22:36:58 Copywrong! 22:55:12 the problem with madbrain is that he doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about 22:55:22 so while he may seem interesting, its only because he's full of shit 22:55:23 Decisive. Aggressive! 22:55:25 Popcorn. 22:55:33 i just bought a popcorn maker. 22:55:56 When you cause ehird to jump back in surprise at the offensiveness of an instance of insulting, you know you're on the edge. 22:56:07 Well, okay, I didn't *physically* jump back. 22:56:15 madbrain. Retort! 22:56:25 I suggest saying that augur is full of shit. 22:57:04 ehird, check it out 22:57:13 ive invented a cute little model of syntax, very simple 22:57:17 and stack based! 22:57:33 The problem with augur is that he presents everything really shittily. 22:57:36 and it manages to explain to largely inexplicable phenomena in one fell swoop 22:57:37 :o 22:57:43 So while he may seem really boring, it's only because he's not full of shit. 22:57:49 Wait, that didn't work. 22:57:54 :) 22:58:03 but true, i think 22:58:12 No, the latter statement failed. 22:58:18 Feynman was interesting and not full of shit. 22:58:18 but still true! 22:58:23 do you know madbrain from elsewhere, incidentally? 22:58:27 no. 22:58:28 just here. 22:58:33 or are you just really aggressive :P 22:58:55 he just has a really weird notion of what qualifies as the information content of a string of phonemes 22:59:05 the problem is that its incredibly difficult to compute that 22:59:20 is that relevant to whether it's a good model or not? 22:59:23 I don't think so 22:59:25 what? 22:59:32 is that really a problem 22:59:35 that it's hard to compute 23:00:23 its a problem if you're making claims about the information content of a string of phonemes, yes. 23:02:54 wanna know about my little model of syntax? x3 23:03:49 there are only three core operations! 23:05:53 i used to think the bit-measurement when people say things like "english gets 6 b/s" was actual informational content 23:06:00 like, it actually carries 6 bits of actual information 23:06:03 not just distinct elements of the language 23:06:10 but see thats very hard to quantify 23:06:14 and i kept wondering how people worked out the exact actual bit contents of some information 23:06:30 and also how come things on earth about humans can be 6 bits 23:06:36 i mean, we're enumerating the entire logical space here :P 23:06:56 so let me tell you my little mode 23:06:57 l 23:06:58 then i realised it was not that awesome 23:07:00 and it was so boring 23:07:02 and you're so boring 23:07:03 and shut up 23:07:05 thank you 23:07:10 :Have I written this spell good and correctly: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/Suppress_Lycanthropy.txt 23:07:19 proably 23:07:21 *probably 23:07:27 i did not write that word good and correctly 23:09:17 oh ok here we go ehird 23:09:27 and shut up augur 23:09:30 here is my model of All Human Language Syntax 23:09:34 READY? 23:09:41 and i hate you augur 23:09:43 and i really do 23:09:56 ehird, more than me? 23:09:58 :D 23:10:05 and i have thought of something i haven't actually tried, i'm going to put you on /ignore because i am like, fight or flight here 23:10:12 and i can't kill you over the internet 23:10:27 ehird, heh? you are ignoring augur? 23:10:28 :D 23:10:37 and so i am going to have to flight by which i mean /ignore goodbye temporarily please do not take it personally thank you i will probably logread because i have no self control bye 23:10:49 :( 23:10:51 okay logreading now./ 23:10:56 s/\/$// 23:10:58 XD 23:11:10 anmaster! wanna know about language? :o 23:11:17 you are sad don't be sad NO I NEVER READ THAT 23:11:20 i never read your lines 23:11:22 in the log 23:11:24 um, one line 23:11:25 youll LITERALLY be the first person other than me to know this stuff 23:11:26 i'm kinda tired. 23:11:26 :o 23:11:29 can't, you know 23:11:30 count 23:12:37 it's kinda lonely without augur babbling 23:12:40 feels lonely 23:12:47 i mean it's okay when it's just normal silence 23:12:52 but this is silence sans augur babbling 23:12:56 which is like... explicit silence 23:12:59 it is of my own doing 23:13:00 and it is my undoing 23:13:08 therefore my doing is my undoing and all my acts are wrong 23:13:20 i would jump out of a window but since that is a thing that i would do it is clearly the wrong thing to do 23:13:28 anmaster! wanna know about language? :o <-- noooooo 23:13:32 :( 23:14:29 AnMaster: i do not suggest /ignore as a remedy it causes extreme cancer of the sadness organ 23:14:34 (it's a church organ) 23:14:34 ehird, but isn't then not doing it something you would do? 23:14:37 as you just did it 23:14:41 NO 23:14:43 inaction is not action 23:14:45 i think 23:15:00 ehird, hehe I read that as "church oerjan" first 23:15:32 your most excellency augur, 23:15:45 please telepathically transdivinate whether me unignoring you would result in unpleasant babbling 23:15:53 or perhaps a return to serene silence, not this noisy, upsetting silence 23:15:57 yours truly sincerely, 23:16:00 ehird, conjecture: you can not decide (by free will) to do something you wouldn't do. 23:16:01 elliott hird 23:16:07 AnMaster: you ruined my beautiful letter 23:16:12 (you could be forced to though) 23:16:24 ehird, oops didn't see. I was busy writing it 23:16:27 now you are cluttering my name space and augur thinks my name is ehird, conjecture: you can not decide (by free will) to do something you wouldn't do. 23:16:28 elliott hird 23:16:48 your absolute excellent-champion augur, 23:16:48 ehird, XD 23:16:51 i am 23:16:52 ... 23:16:54 hah 23:16:56 please discard this letter 23:17:03 really? XD 23:17:06 I know this spell I wrote is an exception to the general rule for creating potions. But I made it like this anyways. 23:17:09 your above-excellent super-liminal superlative augur, 23:17:13 my name is in fact elliott hird 23:17:14 love, 23:17:16 elliott hird 23:17:16 ehird, I haven't laughed out 23:17:19 loud 23:17:21 all week before 23:17:30 love, 23:17:30 ehird, I haven't laughed out 23:17:30 elliott hird 23:17:31 hah! 23:17:39 it was fine at my end AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS 23:17:42 for I am a solipsist 23:17:44 ehird, meh 23:17:46 an IRC solipsist 23:17:53 i am the only client that exists. 23:18:02 ehird, why are you still on irc then 23:18:14 it's the only game you can play on macs. 23:18:22 ehird, intel macs? 23:18:31 ehird, if you have classic you can play quite a few more at least 23:18:34 i use macintosh system software 5 23:18:34 no idea about intel ones 23:18:43 system 6 is too bloated for my meagre brain 23:18:50 ehird, never seen system 5 23:18:51 ever 23:18:51 i don't actually own a macintosh, i just execute the instructions in my head 23:18:55 system 1 and system 6 yes 23:18:59 and 7 8 and 9 23:19:09 ehird, I thought you did? 23:19:24 well the physical world isn't real either, so everything is in my head really 23:19:28 but it sounds better this way... 23:20:07 dear augury augur, 23:20:14 i substantiate the unignorance of your persona. 23:20:16 very lovely day time, 23:20:18 elliott hird 23:20:24 dear augury augur, 23:20:27 i mean night time. 23:20:30 ... 23:20:30 very lovely correction time, 23:20:32 elliott hird 23:20:33 nooooooo 23:20:34 not again 23:20:40 :( 23:20:41 :D 23:20:46 ... 23:20:46 very lovely correction time, 23:20:46 elliott hird 23:20:50 like that here 23:20:51 HOW ABOUT SUKKY SUKKY LOVE YOU LONG TIME? 23:21:00 augur, XD 23:21:06 thats awesome 23:21:09 :D 23:21:15 as a reply I mean 23:21:16 apostrophes are awesome 23:21:20 not the act in fact 23:21:21 NOT THAT YOU'D EVER KNOW THAT 23:21:24 because you didn't use them 23:21:43 ehird, you mean single-quotes? 23:21:56 "thats awesome" 23:21:58 YOU HATE THEM 23:21:58 ehird, anyway augur doesn't use them a lot either 23:22:05 yes, and i hate him too 23:22:06 HATE 23:22:11 anyway, now for a bout of semi-coheerency 23:22:13 really? 23:22:16 and why is that? 23:22:25 http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/enhpc.gif 23:22:26 ONE KEYBOARD TO RULE THEM ALL 23:22:28 ONE KEYBOARD TO FIND THEM 23:22:31 ONE KEYBOARD TO BRING THEM ALL 23:22:39 AND IN THE SCANCODES BIND THEM 23:22:40 http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/syntax.html 23:22:43 ... 23:22:45 ehird, hah 23:22:55 augur, nice link (as a contrast) 23:22:57 didn't open it 23:22:58 "One multi-function keyboard layout that tries to combine all the functions of: 23:22:59 The normal 104/105-key PC keyboard 23:22:59 The 122-key terminal emulation keyboard 23:22:59 The Sun keyboard (notice the HELP key on the left) 23:22:59 An APL keyboard (APL symbols are on the right half of the keys) 23:23:00 A LISP keyboard of the Space Cadet variety (Meta, Super, and Hyper... and the symbols on the left half of the keys, even unshifted (. ). and :)" 23:23:25 ehird, awesome 23:23:45 all it needs is a trackpoint, a trackpad, a trackball, a mousing surface and a tablet 23:23:47 ehird, "and :)"? 23:23:55 and you can just drop it on your desk and sit there FOREVER 23:24:06 AnMaster: unshifted ( ) : 23:24:10 it was in parens 23:24:15 ah 23:24:15 (Meta, Super, […] (. ). and :) 23:24:20 confusing I know 23:24:30 tbh I'd probably buy a keyboard like that 23:24:35 anmaster: INNIT AWESOME? 23:24:41 ehird, why are there two sysrq? 23:24:43 thats a whole theory of syntax right there. 23:24:45 seriously. 23:24:45 augur, didn't open it I said 23:24:49 AnMaster: one's print screen/sys req 23:24:50 you think im joking but 23:24:51 and won't 23:24:51 the regular key 23:24:53 oh 23:24:54 :( 23:24:54 and one's a one-key sysreq 23:25:03 AnMaster: just like there's shifted and unshifted () 23:25:07 ehird, hum 23:25:11 there'd be something satisfying about lobbing that thing on your desk 23:25:11 huge 23:25:17 like, the feeling of being able to control everything 23:25:18 all there 23:25:20 all you'd ever need 23:25:20 ehird, how do you set the "mode" or something? 23:25:28 AnMaster: shift or something, who cares 23:25:30 anyway 23:25:39 it'd have to be made with capacitive buckling springs, like the Model F 23:25:44 even older, and more clicky, than the Model M 23:25:53 ehird, it needs localised versions for all possible languages. ALL IN ONE 23:25:54 as in 23:25:59 and it'd have to have a huge bezel 23:25:59 all buttons has all languages 23:26:09 ehird, oh and both qwerty and dvorak 23:26:13 in that classic beige 23:26:14 it would be 23:26:15 GLORIOUS 23:26:53 [[ 23:26:53 23:26:54 super_merge ([F..., X......F, ...], H, P) = ([X...... → F... X......F, ...], H ∪ {F...}, P) 23:26:54
23:26:55 sub_merge ([F, X...F, ...], H, P) = ([X... → F X...F, ...], F, P ∪ {F...}) 23:26:55 ]] 23:26:58 augur: you fail at XML forever. 23:27:12 also HTML, also XHTML, also choosing sane markup formats, also at writing markup in said format 23:27:27 ehird, husuh 23:27:30 hush. 23:27:39 its supposed to be quick and dirty 23:27:40 and it works 23:28:02 then why is the fucking xml declaration there 23:28:05 or the / in
23:28:16 heck, firefox won't even render that 23:28:24 it'll take one look at it and spew out an XML error 23:28:39 :| 23:28:49 the declaration is there fore unicode. 23:28:56 23:29:08 congratulations, you fail at quick and dirty hacks! 23:29:20 ::shrug:: 23:29:59 fixe 23:30:00 d 23:30:01 happy? 23:30:13 doesnt work properly tho 23:30:50 yeah, you did it stupidly. 23:30:57 no i didnt 23:31:08 put as the first like, replace
with
, and it'll work juuuuuuuust fine. 23:31:10 *line 23:31:31 its the unicode that doesnt work, cuntface 23:32:10 Yes. 23:32:17 I retract my advice, though. Cuntface. 23:33:00 * augur fucks you up so hard 23:33:44 I was so much happier when I was ignoring you. 23:36:11 there ehird 23:36:13 no unicode at all 23:36:16 just ugly text :| 23:36:25 that is decidedly not an improvement. 23:36:29 its not! 23:36:30 but 23:36:38 its the best i can do :( 23:36:53 great, xhtml. 23:36:55 :D 23:36:59 now it's at least ten times as shitty as the last iteration. 23:37:01 NEXT ILL DO HTML5 23:37:15 funny, adding that to the start was all you needed to have valid html5. 23:37:21 and also to trigger standards mode 23:37:24 which would have fixed shit. 23:37:30 ehird, gave up the /ignore? 23:37:34 AnMaster: alas. 23:37:36 reconsidering. 23:37:37 except i did that ehird :( 23:37:40 and it didnt work :( 23:38:01 well fix your fucking server and get it to send the right content-type header, that is my suggestion 23:38:07 your mother. 23:38:29 -!- iamcal has quit. 23:39:18 how now 23:39:22 BETTER? 23:39:41 augur, link? 23:40:05 http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/syntax.html 23:40:24 augur, looks ok in konqueror? 23:40:27 super_merge [([F..., X......F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X...... → F... X......F, ...], H ∪ {F...}, P), ...] 23:40:27 sub_merge [([F, X...F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X... → F X...F, ...], F, P ∪ {F...}), ...] 23:40:27 adjoin [([Y, ...], Hi, Pi), ([X, ...], Hj, Pj), ...] = [([X → Y X, ...], Hj, Pj), ...] 23:40:33 if that is what it should look like 23:40:34 :) 23:40:36 however some font issues 23:40:47 looks correct when pasted in irc client 23:40:56 but has some boxes in konq 23:41:10 so yeh, thats the theory of syntax :o 23:41:29 augur, pretty. But I have no clue what it means 23:41:33 :) 23:41:59 ok the things that look like X...f with the ...f in subscripts, and nothing in superscripts 23:42:00 augur, and this is lynx: 23:42:03 super_merge [([F[...], X[...]^...F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X[...]^... [...] X[...]^...F, ...], H F[...]}, P), ...] 23:42:03 sub_merge [([F, X[...F], ...], H, P), ...] = [([X[...] X[...F], ...], F, P F[...]}), ...] 23:42:03 adjoin [([Y, ...], H[i], P[i]), ([X, ...], H[j], P[j]), ...] = [([X X, ...], H[j], P[j]), ...] 23:42:07 that means "An X that needs an f" 23:42:22 well ok let me rephrase that 23:42:23 augur, I DIDN'T ASK WHAT IT MEANT 23:42:28 ok fine :| 23:42:29 I just said I didn't understand it 23:42:44 you're a lameface 23:43:03 augur, maybe. But I'm sure there are stuff I'm better at 23:43:44 grammar argh fix it 23:43:56 ehird, eh? 23:44:20 augur: it is manifestly inferior to anything else because it's xhtml. 23:44:30 not even that; inconsistently-capitalised xhtml 23:44:32 "PuBLIC" 23:44:35 "en-uS" 23:44:39 not even sure that's valid. 23:44:45 AnMaster: there is stuff i'm better at 23:44:45 not are 23:45:24 ehird, am you sure about that? 23:45:29 die die die 23:45:41 ehird, why are that? 23:45:48 FUCK DEATH DIE ARGH RAGE 23:45:51 SCREAMING FIRE 23:46:08 ehird, why is you reacting this strongly to it? 23:46:17 tiredness :D 23:46:20 and mirth 23:46:32 ah :D 23:46:34 oh god 23:46:37 you did it in that line 23:46:39 FUUUCK ARGH sfjgsdiofhgljh 23:46:43 i'm so tired i didn't notice 23:46:46 XD 23:46:48 i can't trust ANYTHING that happens until I sleep 23:46:52 am I even actually typing this? 23:46:56 ehird, yes 23:46:57 does my computer actually exist? 23:46:57 and no 23:46:59 :D 23:47:00 do *I* exist? 23:47:16 ehird, well you asserted you were the *only* thing existing before 23:47:31 maybe it is the reverse? 23:47:37 you are the only thing *not* exisiting 23:47:54 man i am freaking out! 23:47:59 would you tell that to someone on drugs? 23:48:00 no? 23:48:04 THEN DON'T TELL ME WHEN I'M TIRED 23:48:08 ehird, you are on drugs? 23:48:13 no, but same thing basically 23:48:40 ehird, maybe no one exists 23:48:48 and we are all dreaming that we exist 23:48:52 maybe nothing exists 23:48:58 ... 23:49:00 I said that 23:49:03 no one 23:49:05 is not nothing 23:49:09 you peoplecentricitythingy 23:49:10 indeed 23:49:22 I meant "nothing" though probably 23:49:45 i exist more than you 23:52:32 oklopol, except since ∀x(Human(x) → Existance(x) → 0) that "more" is insignificant 23:52:48 (note to self: don't mix syntax from different parts of math like that, it's confusing) 23:53:01 the second arrow is "limit" the first is "implies" 23:53:07 just to clarify 23:53:51 great what the hell. That wasn't supposed to happen. 23:53:52 note to AnMaster, don't futz together some random mathematical notation in a blatantly obvious "look at me i know mathematics" 23:53:54 bleh so tired 23:53:58 * AnMaster prods rythmbox 23:54:12 ehird, no it wasn't that. 23:54:38 rhythm. 23:54:43 yeah whatever 23:55:05 ehird, I think it fucked up anyway. Some sort of shuffle even when that was disabled 23:55:23 * AnMaster sighs and note he should go back to the command line alternative again. Works better. 23:55:44 i care, i really care, i'm trying to care, don't be a bastard 23:55:46 can't do it 23:55:49 i really don't care. 23:56:13 ehird, about? 23:56:20 [23:55] • AnMaster sighs and note he should go back to the command line alternative again. Works better. 23:56:24 you don'ts care about? 23:56:34 zgjk;' 23:56:34 ah 23:56:37 OW 23:56:38 ehird, what? 23:56:44 i rolled my finger along the home row 23:56:49 ehird, why? 23:56:51 and it hit the spiky edge of my enter key 23:56:57 propped up slightly 23:56:59 as it's a bit broken 23:57:01 ow ow ow ow ow 23:57:05 ehird, oooh nice spiky keyboard 23:57:05 (scissor-switch board = sharp key edges) 23:57:19 i think everyone is sleeping in this housees or something 23:57:20 so quiet 23:57:35 *house 23:58:10 "A trackball mouse with a foot pedal!" 23:58:14 what a wonderful idea! 23:58:15 i think 23:58:21 ehird, the pedal would be for? 23:58:25 clicking 23:58:25 clicking? 23:58:26 ah 23:58:26 presumably 23:58:53 Trackball mice for your toes. 23:59:00 ehird, would be trivial to wire up to the toe brakes of some flightsim rudder pedals 23:59:02 Get some use out of those buggers. 23:59:05 "In the Cool Accessories Dept., the TopTrack comes with a silver and gold fabric mouse cozy. A mouse cozy! My wife wonders why anyone would need to keep a mouse warm. Obviously she has no heart. Personally, I can see reasons for modem cozies as well." 23:59:06 ^___^ 23:59:07 then you would have left/right click 23:59:12 fizzie: No, heels! 23:59:14 ehird, just a few lines in the X config I expect 23:59:29 needs to be a good foot pedal though 23:59:32 no gradual action needed 23:59:36 needs to be tactile 23:59:45 ehird, well hm. ok 23:59:58 i sure am looking forward to never double-clicking again 2009-11-08: 00:00:06 and yeah those are all analogue inputs 00:00:09 ∀x(Human(x) → Existance(x) → 0) <<< so what exactly is the natural topology of implications? i'm having a hard time interpreting this 00:00:10 ehird, oh? 00:00:18 AnMaster: yes 00:00:28 oklopol, eh? Are you saying precedence order? 00:00:54 oklopol, as I said the second one is NOT an implication, but a limit 00:01:21 oklopol, so: 00:01:44 ∀x(Human(x) →[implies] (Existance(x) →[limit] 0)) 00:01:49 oklopol, clearer? 00:03:12 incidentally, did you know that ed is fun and advanced?! 00:03:16 $ ed 00:03:16 r !ls 00:03:17 390 00:03:17 ,s/^/less / 00:03:17 w !sh 00:03:18 i know the second one is a limit 00:03:21 390 being output from ed 00:03:26 loads the result of `ls` into the buffer 00:03:27 i just don't know what limits mean for implications 00:03:32 so i'm asking what their natural topology is 00:03:34 ehird, isn't ed TC iirc? 00:03:35 replaces start of line with "less " in all lines 00:03:38 unless I misremember 00:03:39 and writes it to a shell 00:03:44 cool, eh? 00:03:48 bet you didn't know it could do that 00:03:55 i just don't know what limits mean for implications <-- nothing. 00:04:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:04:27 killjoy 00:04:31 oklopol, in this case however "being human implies your "existence level" goes towards 0" 00:05:11 oh should've read your "clearer" thingie, since i indeed misinterpreted what's limit is being taken 00:05:21 (well whose) 00:05:51 oi 00:05:55 admire how cool ed actually is! 00:06:06 incidentally the same things work in vi by putting : in front. 00:06:13 oklopol, fair enough. It wasn't exactly standard notation (to put it mildly) 00:06:21 ehird, is it TC or not? 00:06:26 who gives a shit 00:06:26 as I said 00:06:27 ehird: not incidentally 00:06:28 I think it is 00:06:32 bsmntbombdood: well, yeah 00:06:33 but I'm not certain 00:06:37 ex is a subset of ed after all 00:17:04 Gregor: baizng 00:17:06 *bazing 00:22:35 * Sgeo loves how worlds in AW can set what should only be settable by the user 00:23:53 Forcing me to, say, have a visibility of 100m is obnoxious for those on poorer graphics cards 00:24:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:24:46 * ehird toys with the idea of registering in Active Worlds, invading everywhere and setting up scripts that ruins everything 00:24:51 Idea rejection ticket 00:24:53 Sgeo, s/loves/hates/ then? 00:24:55 Reason: Too tired 00:24:59 Resolved: WONTFIX 00:25:07 ehird, nah 00:25:13 AnMaster, it's called sarcasm 00:25:14 Resolved: LATER 00:25:14 2009-11-08T00:25Z 00:25:21 no, WONTFIX 00:25:22 Sgeo, ah. Too tired 00:25:25 we are execu-fucking tive 00:25:28 and we make decisions now 00:25:31 and move onto other decisions 00:25:34 and make the SHIT out of them 00:25:37 EXECU-FUCKING TIVE 00:25:38 ah 00:25:43 ehird, um, the worse you can do is make something to destroy all tourist property in, say, AWTeen 00:25:43 fucking corporate and all that shit. 00:25:44 night 00:25:54 Sgeo: i'm sure i could figure out something 00:25:56 AnMaster: observant it is indeed night 00:26:01 i notice you omitted the arrow 00:26:13 Or maybe spam goatse in public areas 00:26:17 ehird, oops yeah I forgot it 00:26:21 speaking of fucking corporate decisions and shit 00:26:23 http://buttersafe.com/2008/08/21/corporate-finance/ 00:26:23 night ↓ is what I meant 00:26:26 Although that's more of an AWNewbie problem 00:26:27 night → 00:26:35 No one goes to AWNewbie anymore, so 00:26:51 AW...booby 00:27:51 There are some X rated worlds in AW >.> 00:29:03 i cannot think of a single meaning of >.> there that isn't creepy or sad. 00:29:40 Arguably, the fact that I know that there are X rated worlds is what I thought was suspicious 00:29:56 (They're not accessible without setting an option to allow one to see them) 00:30:10 are you trying to make things worse 00:30:20 I haven't actually been to one 00:31:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 00:54:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:06:52 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:07:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:14:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:15:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:15:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:16:40 Come on people. 01:16:56 Nobody's pwned codu through Hackiki yet. 01:16:59 Get with the program. 01:29:29 / 01:29:33 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 01:30:12 Come on augur, pwn codu! 01:30:19 whats codu 01:30:27 http://codu.org/ 01:30:32 Or rather, the box that runs that. 01:30:48 and you're challenging people to hack it? 01:30:57 http://hackiki.codu.org/ 01:31:04 I'm just surprised that I could put that up and NOT see somebody hack it. 01:31:09 i will do it Gregor if you will entertain my talk! 01:31:30 How does one entertain someone's talk ... 01:31:38 gregor, i dont get it 01:31:42 what are we supposed to do 01:32:04 /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' 01:32:07 augur: It's a wiki that runs nearly-arbitrary code. Figure out how to escape its security restrictions and kill codu people! 01:32:11 hi i broked it 01:32:34 /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/dev': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/etc': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/hackiki': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib64': Permission denied /bin/rm: cannot remove `/tmp': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/usr': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cann 01:32:35 remove `/var': Function not implemented 01:32:35 am sad 01:32:37 can i suggest it to adrian lamo? 01:32:48 or would that be too cruel to do to the codu server? 01:32:58 ooh, look at augur, it's time for his special show 01:33:02 That hack is boring. 01:33:05 Look At Me I Am Totally In Bed With A Leet Haxor 01:33:07 Because it's easily reverted. 01:33:12 Gregor: shush 01:33:13 im not in bed with adrian lamo. :| 01:33:15 hes like 01:33:17 in sacramento 01:33:20 and im not 01:33:49 That is a solvable problem. 01:33:53 it is! 01:33:54 Gregor: entertaining someone's talk is answering their all important questions about death. 01:33:56 but that would require money 01:34:05 besides, he's got a boybitch 01:34:16 augur: YOU COULD BE THAT BOYBITCH 01:34:21 but im not. 01:34:22 :( 01:34:37 augur: Also a solvable problem! Just a more complicated one to solve. 01:34:49 /hackiki/bin/.wiki: line 3: tree: command not found 01:35:17 /bin/ls: bin: Function not implemented 01:35:17 /bin/ls: lib: Function not implemented 01:35:18 /bin/ls: templates: Function not implemented 01:35:19 ehird: Why don't you just use the arbitrary command runner. 01:35:24 So long as you're just running arbitrary commands ... 01:35:26 more carnage, 01:35:28 destruction, 01:35:29 sex 01:35:44 You're supposed to cause irreversible damage to codu, not trivially-reversible damage to the wiki. 01:35:47 ANYWAY ENTERTAIN MY BARK 01:35:54 which is tree bark 01:35:55 not dog bark 01:36:04 I don't want to answer questions about death :P 01:36:44 Is it reverted yet? 01:37:02 Sgeo: Yes. 01:37:13 cromyomlancy! 01:37:21 `ls 01:37:22 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.20700 01:38:00 Gregor: http://hackiki.codu.org/wiki/ 01:38:15 aw it doesn't work 01:38:55 ehird: Hack CODU, not end users ;)0 01:39:56 still doesens't work :( 01:40:12 Gregor: it irreversibly damages codu's readerbase 01:40:17 ANYWAY 01:40:23 fuck what was my q— oh yes 01:40:33 Gregor: i'm going to bother you some more about wearable computing MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA 01:40:37 i am so evil. evil and tired 01:40:41 (mainly tired) 01:41:18 OK, ask fast 'cuz I'll be gone at any minute :P 01:41:27 ;_; but i am le tired 01:41:39 i think i have a nap at this point, then fire ze missiles 01:41:52 Gregor: okay so since the myvu thing is only 640x480 01:41:56 and you have the dpi set up really high 01:42:01 don't you only fit like 01:42:02 3 words 01:42:03 on the screen 01:42:18 Quite a few more than there, but it's pretty few, yes. 01:42:28 hmm 01:42:28 Erm 01:42:31 More than THREE that is 01:42:35 :-D 01:42:44 how many lines of ~80col text would you guess 01:43:24 Well, I don't think it can display 80-column rows :P 01:43:29 xD 01:43:37 okay methinks i may need to find non-myvu options 01:43:44 Gregor: how well is it operating btw 01:43:53 Works great, I use it for PIM-ish stuff. 01:44:04 wow, an actual practical wearable computing application? 01:44:06 that's a first 01:44:17 anyone know when /me was invented? 01:44:21 i'm crazy enough to want to use my not-yet-existing one for programming 01:44:26 or was that an original feature of irc? 01:44:29 augur: with ctcp. maybe slightly earlier 01:44:34 it's CTCP ACTION 01:44:46 ok 01:44:48 Gregor: the main barrier to programming is the screen and the keyboard, right? 01:45:02 I'd say so. 01:45:24 screen I have no idea, keyboard I think my current plan is to use a FrogPad since it's tiny and has big keys and stuff 01:45:28 and is apparently usable for real typing 01:45:43 I'd prefer something with mechanical keyswitches because tactile response is quite important, but those are all heavy. 01:46:03 done anything with that tiny metal keyboard? PIM stuff doesn't really use it... 01:48:53 that lag is him typing on his tiny metal keyboard after leaving. 01:48:56 truly inspiring. 01:50:04 I SALUTE YOU SIRE 02:09:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:10:47 fun hack: 02:10:52 have your builder thingy do 02:10:56 ln -s $(which interp) . 02:11:02 then in your interpreted program just do 02:11:04 #!interp 02:11:20 only works in the same dir though... 02:12:30 -!- Asztal has joined. 02:35:30 help me pic a watch 02:35:30 http://www.kennethcole.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3579841 02:35:32 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=249949&CategoryID=29196 02:35:33 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=379381&CategoryID=31167 02:35:35 http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=377836&CategoryID=29205 02:36:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:43:49 augur: i recommend a watch that costs $5. 02:44:26 better yet, a smartphone that also — gasp — doubles up as a watch 02:47:30 (ponder: does being indirectly told to reevaluate your priorities by someone who considers spending $250 on a keyboard sane mean that you're really off the deep end, or just have different priorities?) 02:47:36 (Just joking, it's the former) 02:55:49 * Sgeo would like to have a separate watch from his cell phone 02:55:59 Why? 02:56:10 Not an expensive one, just so I don't have to take out my cell phone constantly. Especially during tests or in the rain 02:56:39 Get a wrist computer, or better— a wearable computer! 02:56:53 I think Ludwig Mies van der Rohe would like a word with you, though. 02:56:59 Ornament is crime, after all. You could get arrested. 02:57:06 Wait, that was Adolf Loos. 02:57:12 Oh, who cares, they're all the same.[1] 02:57:19 [1] Apologies to all three architects out there 02:58:43 Why hasn't anyone invented a general better syntax for writing things since LaTeX. 02:58:52 (that is, the \cmd{arg} construction) 03:13:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:34:16 -!- ehird has quit. 04:12:52 I have an idea for a new language 04:13:05 it's called GPL and every valid program starts with the GPL license 04:13:20 (which is treated as a comment but without it the compiler will error) 04:50:53 heh 05:32:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:54:24 -!- immibis has joined. 06:19:54 log-reading ehird, i have an iphone. 06:21:00 fax: does your name happen to be richard stallman? 06:25:28 richard `rms` stallman 06:25:38 :o 06:27:20 The TTP Project 06:48:46 hi fax! 06:52:11 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:53:55 -!- coppro has joined. 06:54:50 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:55:29 -!- coppro has joined. 06:55:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:06:11 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:18:48 hey bsmntbombdood :) 07:18:58 i haven't seen you in forever 07:24:15 yeah 07:24:27 I run out of steam :P 07:28:45 you are in university right? 07:30:24 yes 07:30:37 you? 07:30:42 I don't think you are 07:30:46 no 07:37:57 too depressed for that sort of thing 07:38:07 :(((( 07:39:39 bsmntspacedood I am watching sealab 2021 07:40:06 not familiar 07:40:16 i am watching er 07:40:21 07:58:55 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:30 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 08:26:00 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:00 -!- augur has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:03 -!- Gregor has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:03 -!- coppro has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- sebbu has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- rodgort has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:05 -!- dbc has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- AnMaster has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- Guest7354 has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- Warrigal has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:09 -!- ineiros has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- oklopol has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- olsner has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Ilari has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- HackEgo has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Rembane has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- mtve has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- SimonRC has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Leonidas has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:26:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:27:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:27:51 -!- coppro has joined. 08:27:51 -!- augur has joined. 08:27:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:27:51 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:27:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:27:51 -!- dbc has joined. 08:27:51 -!- olsner has joined. 08:27:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:27:51 -!- ineiros has joined. 08:27:51 -!- HackEgo has joined. 08:27:51 -!- EgoBot has joined. 08:27:51 -!- Warrigal has joined. 08:27:52 -!- AnMaster has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:27:52 -!- Rembane has joined. 08:27:52 -!- mtve has joined. 08:27:52 -!- SimonRC has joined. 08:46:34 -!- Slereah has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:34 -!- augur has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- Gregor has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- sebbu has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:39 -!- coppro has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:40 -!- dbc has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:40 -!- rodgort has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:41 -!- oerjan has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- AnMaster has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- Guest7354 has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- Warrigal has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- ineiros has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:44 -!- HackEgo has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- olsner has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Ilari has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Rembane has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- oklopol has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- SimonRC has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Leonidas has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- mtve has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- Deewiant has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- pikhq has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- fungot has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:46 -!- comex has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:46 -!- Cerise has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:48 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:46:48 -!- fizzie has quit (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:35:04 -!- comex has joined. 09:35:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:35:04 -!- fungot has joined. 09:35:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:35:19 -!- fizzie has joined. 09:35:19 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:35:27 -!- Cerise has joined. 09:36:00 -!- coppro has joined. 09:36:00 -!- augur has joined. 09:36:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Gregor has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:36:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:36:00 -!- oklopol has joined. 09:36:00 -!- dbc has joined. 09:36:00 -!- olsner has joined. 09:36:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:36:00 -!- ineiros has joined. 09:36:00 -!- HackEgo has joined. 09:36:00 -!- EgoBot has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Warrigal has joined. 09:36:00 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Leonidas has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:36:00 -!- Rembane has joined. 09:36:00 -!- mtve has joined. 09:36:00 -!- SimonRC has joined. 09:41:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:42:30 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 10:11:55 -!- fax has joined. 10:15:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:33:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:00:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:08:39 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 11:29:08 -!- fax has joined. 11:46:50 -!- Pthing has joined. 11:59:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:15:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:36:11 -!- ehird has joined. 12:40:43 22:19:54 log-reading ehird, i have an iphone. 12:40:43 Then do not buy a watch. 12:42:19 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 12:54:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:08:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:08:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:09:26 http://ninite.com/ Windows users discover the package manager... uh, installer. 13:16:46 google earth is file sharing? 13:16:55 err lol 13:16:58 wat 13:17:00 missed "Other" 13:17:00 xD 13:17:03 lol 13:17:12 share dem geographamagical location filezzz 13:17:42 i was thinking you could take pictures of places they don't have ones for yet :P 13:18:38 wait they have like 5 apps everyone already has 13:18:48 well more like 40 but anyway 13:18:56 Then do not buy a watch. <-- what about during tests? You aren't allowed to have a cell phone then 13:19:12 Any number of things? 13:19:28 ehird, what do you mean? 13:19:33 (Among them moving to Denmark; they let you use the internetwebs now. :P) 13:19:49 ehird, during tests in school/at university? 13:19:54 Yes. 13:19:57 Well, some, I think. 13:20:06 Not things like mathematics and the like. 13:20:13 Danish exams. Or was it English? 13:20:22 ehird, math was the stuff I was thinking of primarily here 13:20:23 And I don't remember what schooling level. High school or university, probably. 13:20:27 eh? computers would be the least useful for mathematics 13:20:29 hm 13:20:40 oklopol, that's the point 13:20:44 oklopol: wolfram alpha + wikipedia 13:20:47 pretty helpful 13:20:49 for anything else being able to get information is useful 13:21:08 well, sure 13:21:12 whatever 13:21:18 oklopol, what about running a CAS on the computer? 13:21:19 well yeah if it's basic course in monkey integration 13:21:25 anyway won't the test room have a clock in it 13:21:33 like 90% of the rooms in the world have a clock in them :-P 13:22:11 all our test rooms have clocks in them, but in few they are positioned in such a way that you can't see them from where i sit. 13:22:14 ehird, at the university I'm at: all rooms except none of the rooms in the newest building. (strange yes) 13:22:21 Strange. 13:22:37 Well, buy a $5 watch then and take it when you need it. But augur linked to watches in the vicinity of $150. 13:22:59 ehird, I think there are some outside in the corridor in the newest building. But that is all. 13:23:22 ehird: he also thinks about what clothes to buy, i find that even weirder 13:23:33 oklopol, agreed 13:23:41 oklopol: so basically he's stereotypically gay :-P 13:23:42 i mean clocks at least make this fun clicking sound 13:23:52 watches don't really tick much. 13:23:54 clothes don't do anything 13:23:59 well yeah crappy ones don't 13:24:25 oklopol, you dislike digital watches? 13:24:28 we actually tried to buy loudly ticking clocks with vjn once 13:24:45 oklopol, "tried"? 13:24:46 i rate clothes based on either comfort or boringness/cheapness, former for indoors, latter for outdoors 13:24:47 we wanted to put them in a ring and make the ticking spin around 13:25:08 but there simply aren't loudly ticking clocks. no existo. 13:25:22 ehird, you don't want comfort outside? 13:25:26 turns out that cotton clothes intended for night usage are the only really comfortable clothes 13:25:39 thus saving money by having to buy half the clothes, take that capitalism 13:25:50 or something, I don't know 13:25:55 I'm still residually tired from yesterday 13:26:08 AnMaster: i have not yet seen a clothing item suitable for outdoor usage that is comfortable 13:26:11 i rate shirts like this: black t-shirt without any noticeable deviation from the ideal form of black t-shirts ok, others discarded. 13:26:15 i guess i'm ~~~sensitive~~~ 13:26:22 ehird, depends on how you define "comfort" 13:26:22 i hate tshirts, gotta have something on my arms 13:26:34 well i'm usually as naked as possible 13:26:40 clothes are annoying 13:26:47 ehird, I would say a thick jacket is more comfortable outdoors than a thin one when it is -15C or so 13:26:50 AnMaster: i know it when i see it.... as an approximation let's say the least noticeable 13:26:59 although softness is good, skin is kinda icky :-P 13:27:04 well, sure 13:27:10 I mean comfort as in discarding practicality 13:27:14 ah 13:27:17 i.e. ignoring temperature 13:27:26 oh not pockets then? 13:27:39 i don't have any pockets at the moment 13:27:44 discarding pockets was the first thing I thought of when you said "discarding practicality" 13:27:48 i don't need to carry around anything unless I'm going out 13:27:54 where do you stick your hands then? 13:28:06 oklopol: on the keyboard :D 13:28:24 ehird, where do you keep your credit card and such if you don't have any pockets? 13:28:26 oh you mean right now 13:28:31 but seriously, either by my side or crossing my arms. 13:28:47 i'm obviously naked so no pockets either 13:28:50 i don't really have much opportunity to stand doing nothing indoors, so much exciting stuff to do and all 13:29:14 AnMaster: i don't have a credit card. I do have a debit card thingy, but it's expired. I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors. 13:29:19 I'd put it in my pockets to go out, naturally. 13:29:30 ehird, so you leave it outdoors all the time? 13:29:48 my house has places to put things, you know 13:29:59 ehird: it was clearly a joke 13:30:00 do you guys just have all your possessions in your pockets (that would be kinda cool) 13:30:05 oklopol: was it 13:30:07 i pretty much do 13:30:10 ehird, "I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors." <-- a joke about that... 13:30:15 ohh 13:30:18 even though i also carry my computer baggie 13:30:22 right, I don't read my own lines 13:30:26 :D 13:30:29 i just forget to put stuff in there if it fits my pockets 13:30:47 AnMaster is so huge he puts his laptop in his pocket 13:30:54 yes 13:30:55 THE MORE YOU KNOW ===========================================* 13:31:10 ehird, alas, I couldn't fit the umbrella in there if I put my laptop there too 13:31:12 ==* 13:31:23 =* wait, why are we drawing penises on icr 13:31:25 why would you use an umbrella 13:31:25 *irc 13:31:32 you'd miss all the rain 13:31:34 yeah what oklopol said just open your mouth 13:31:37 and drink all the rain 13:31:38 YOU'RE BIG ENOUGH 13:31:52 ehird, with all the pollution these days? 13:32:04 pfft pollution 13:32:06 it's acid rain. just like LSD! 13:32:07 let me tell you about pollution 13:32:10 i don't believe in pollution 13:32:23 that's really all i wanted to tell you 13:32:29 oklopol: i bet you didn't believe in getting less than a 5 either did you huh 13:32:33 OHHHHHHHHH 13:32:34 ice burn 13:32:38 i just got another 4 13:32:43 but it was from this... 13:32:44 err 13:32:56 ? 13:32:58 well it was like finnish 13:33:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:33:17 "like finnish"? 13:33:18 the rules for writing scientific shit are slightly different than the rules in high school, and i didn't feel like reading them 13:33:23 yeah 13:33:25 the course was 13:33:28 about like finnish 13:33:46 ah. what about the "like" bit then? 13:33:55 eh? 13:34:06 that's what like means, "fix the errors in this sentence" 13:34:12 oklopol, it sounded like "similar, but not exactly the same" 13:34:12 * ehird wants to acquire a model f 13:34:15 and ambiguities and shti 13:34:19 *shit 13:34:20 * ehird waits for AnMaster to call his typo 13:34:38 ehird, what typo= 13:34:41 s/=/?/ 13:34:43 AnMaster: yeah it could mean that too 13:34:51 [13:34] * ehird wants to acquire a model f 13:34:53 ("similar, but not...") 13:35:03 ehird, well, I don't know what a model f is 13:35:07 *shrug* 13:35:08 but it didn't, and the like construct requires you to know what i mean 13:35:10 i thought you were gonna go *model m 13:35:11 :P 13:35:20 ehird, was it what you meant? 13:35:26 nope 13:35:29 a model f is one of these babies: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:35:41 note the odd alt/caps lock keys, ctrl-where-caps-lock-is-nowadays (yes i know anmaster) 13:35:46 and odd layout in general 13:36:05 they use capacitive buckling springs, which is like the model m membrane buckling springs but better 13:36:16 ehird, why? Why did the shape the keys like one of those tetris blocks... 13:36:18 http://www.flickr.com/photos/moparx/3887360487/ another model, this one has more off the weird keycaps 13:36:23 and a seemingly more compact layout 13:36:25 you know the one like: 13:36:27 # 13:36:28 ### 13:36:37 AnMaster: the alt and caps lock? 13:36:47 manufacturing ease, I guess, or something 13:36:49 ehird, can't read at that low res 13:36:52 but probably 13:36:52 maybe because it was in the 80s 13:36:57 erm 13:37:00 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:37:01 ehird, how is that a reason? 13:37:02 is not really low res 13:37:09 enter is pretty tetris too 13:37:19 AnMaster: nobody had really decided which way to do big keys was best? 13:37:20 i guess 13:37:23 oklopol, less so 13:37:24 but it's in my current keyboard too, it seems 13:37:26 that enter is the ISO layout enter 13:37:31 AnMaster: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg 13:37:36 higher res photo of a slightly different model 13:37:44 with numpad joined together and more of the weird-style keys 13:37:47 yeah 13:37:53 that's the Personal Computer XT, I think 13:37:56 no arrow keys? :( 13:37:59 as opposed to the first one, a Personal Computer AT 13:38:07 AnMaster: these shipped with the original ibm pc 13:38:32 AnMaster: something to note in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg 13:38:36 it's the european layout, but @ is on 2 13:38:39 and " is on ' 13:38:42 like the american layout 13:38:51 ehird, eh 13:38:53 also, ' is shown as a closing quote with ` being its flipping 13:39:01 ehird, I haven't seen a keyboard with @ elsewhere 13:39:07 european boards. 13:39:12 with the multi-line enter 13:39:17 also, in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg, esc is next to 1 13:39:23 and ` is relocated to before enter 13:39:32 anyway, I just want them for their keyfeel 13:39:32 ehird, Swedish keyboards, multi-line enter, @ is on altgr-2 13:39:40 easy enough to get an adapter to PS/2 13:39:46 well, not that easy, but still 13:39:48 AnMaster: well, fine 13:39:48 ehird, however I remember old swedish mac keyboards used to have @ elsewhere 13:39:51 forgot where 13:40:16 old here means "early imacs and older, gone by G4 already" 13:40:27 Fun fact: When the first boards with the control/alt next to each other were made, ctrl was next to space and alt was further away. 13:40:34 It was more ergonomic because most shortcuts use ctrl. 13:40:45 why did they switch them then? 13:40:48 This was changed for some unfathomable reason. OS X has Command in the position Ctrl used to be. 13:40:53 Which is good. 13:40:57 Easy enough to remap, anyway. 13:41:03 (in other OSs) 13:41:14 ehird, is it hard to remap in OS X btw? 13:41:54 I'll demonstrate with a picture. 13:42:26 Huh. 13:42:29 ehird, you can't hit alt-s (current placement) with part of the palm for the alt. But it works with ctrl. Not sure if that is an argument for or against the current placement though 13:42:29 It screenshotted incorrectly. 13:42:31 Let me try again. 13:42:58 Hitting modifier keys with the palm is the Right Thing. 13:43:05 Most people don't do it, though. 13:43:05 however using part of your palm for ctrl is a bit cramped. So probably an argument against 13:43:15 It's not cramped, it's the ergonomically correct way. 13:43:46 ehird, well yeah I have to use the thumb for s when my palm is able to reach ctrl. otherwise I have to curl up the fingers rather badly. 13:44:15 and on laptop it doesn't work at all 13:44:39 because fn is outermost and you can't really get the hand in the right position for it there anyway 13:44:59 and fn can't be remapped because it doesn't work like normal keys 13:45:35 it doesn't generate a key event in fact, until you press some other key as well 13:45:55 AnMaster: 13:45:56 http://imgur.com/8YeGr.png 13:45:56 http://i.imgur.com/1W6iS.png 13:46:24 ehird, mhm 13:46:52 Ah, the http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg one isn't feasible 13:46:59 There's no XT→anything adapters available 13:47:26 ehird, build one? 13:47:52 AnMaster: That idea fails right at the start as I couldn't get an FPGA with an XT input for obvious reasons. 13:48:14 Anyway, I don't really mind the layout being more "conventional"; I'm pretty sure the weird-style keys aren't very nice anyway. 13:48:25 Although Esc next to the 1? Hot hot hot. Want. 13:48:28 ...but I can just remap that. 13:48:54 ehird, um. I fail to see why that is required. Just build a circuit that converts the pins from the keyboard to the right voltage ranges for an FPGA and put that in between. 13:48:57 and such 13:49:04 might not even need that. 13:49:07 I can't get a slot for the pins to go into, you see. 13:49:15 ehird, solder the wires onto it? 13:49:30 This idea keeps getting worse, worse, and more out of my league. 13:49:40 Whoa, look at the position of Esc in http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102 13:49:43 Nezxt to Num Lock 13:49:44 *Next 13:49:47 Above 7 13:49:57 ehird, okay that is a good reason. But soldering the wires directly to the circuit board wouldn't be hard. 13:50:00 That numpad button layout is freaky-deaky 13:50:26 ehird, esc is where numlock usually is? 13:50:33 And Num Lock is next to it 13:50:35 on modern ones I mean 13:51:22 That board could work quite well even on a modern computer actually. Remap the keys a bit to have a convenient Esc (if you want to use vim, that is). Map the Caps Lock to the Windows key (for e.g. controlling window manager and other keyboard shortcuts) (bottom-right key below right shift). You already have Ctrl and Alt in a semi-convenient place. 13:51:36 And who could resist assigning a bank of hotkeys to that lovely F block? 13:52:19 * AnMaster tries to remember when he last used escape in emacs 13:52:30 Every time you press Alt, kiddo. 13:52:41 ehird, well yes, but I meant the key marked esc 13:52:53 Never, it's identical to holding Altt. 13:52:54 *Alt 13:53:01 ehird, I know that 13:53:20 I was just wondering if I ever used esc instead of holding alt 13:53:23 ... 13:55:04 Here's a better picture of the usable-today Model F: 13:55:11 http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8276/img3347nvm.jpg 13:55:15 (big) 13:55:24 Plus connector. 13:55:42 Hey, look at the LEDs. 13:55:49 Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock. 13:55:50 Freaky! 13:55:53 ehird, wasn't there keyboards with up to F24 or such? 13:56:00 Terminal boards? Yeah. 13:56:07 ehird, also it would be annoying only having up to F10 13:56:09 Those things were fucking beasts. 13:56:10 rather than F12 13:56:16 No it wouldn't. 13:56:23 The F keys are pretty unused. 13:56:36 ehird, eh. Switching between VTs in linux for example? 13:56:49 Besides, just map Windows+F1-2 to F11-12 13:56:57 Windows being the Caps Lock in that picture 13:57:04 AnMaster: I don't use that many consoles. 13:57:11 Heck, even 6 terminals is a lot. 13:57:16 Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock. 13:57:16 Freaky! 13:57:18 why? 13:57:24 Because Num Lock goes first since forever. 13:57:32 ok good point 13:57:40 Most of the time Num Lock is on, so for the vast majority of time just the middle light will be on. 13:57:44 Also, there are arrow keys there, you know. 13:57:52 You access them by turning off Num Lock. 13:57:59 ehird, numlock is usually off in my experience? 13:58:10 Does typing the numpad give numbers? 13:58:13 Then Num Lock is on. 13:58:17 ehird, of course it doesn't 13:58:38 Oh, is this another "I am AnMaster and my obscure use case is the entire world" session? 13:58:45 ehird, no. 13:58:51 ehird, I'm using the laptop :P 13:58:57 Hur hur hur 13:59:01 Apparently the Model F weighs 3 kg. 13:59:04 Or thereabouts. 13:59:26 Should show this to everyone who claims that the Model M is built like a tank, ever. 13:59:31 ehird, a little bit more than an slightly above average laptop then? 13:59:37 a* 13:59:37 I wonder if there's a terminal Model F. That'd be a beast. 13:59:48 AnMaster: But not very evenly distributed. 13:59:51 That thing will feel HEAVY. 14:00:05 ehird, how do you mean? 14:00:11 A terminal Model F would have all the crazy F keys, the numpad-like arrow key formation with the middle button, a few weird-ass keys... 14:00:20 it is heavier at one end? 14:00:26 while a laptop isn't? 14:00:27 It'd be gigantic, heavy as fuck, loud as fuck, tactile as fuck and AWESOME AS FUCK. 14:00:32 (much at least) 14:00:48 AnMaster: I'd say a Model F would feel 2x as heavy as a 3 kg laptop. 14:00:50 That's just a guess, though. 14:00:58 ehird, picture of a terminal keyboard? 14:01:11 Will find a good one. Sec. 14:01:26 AnMaster: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&stc=1&d=1254255319 14:01:28 BEHOLD. 14:01:31 A Model M terminal board. 14:01:49 ehird, same but extra F keys? that's all? 14:01:54 wait no 14:01:55 You are blind. 14:01:58 Have a nice day. 14:01:58 there is a "rule" one too 14:02:00 and more 14:02:04 what the hell is the rule one? 14:02:10 Look at the arrow keys and the keys above, the whole keyblock to the left. 14:02:12 Look at the numpad. 14:02:20 They are GIGANTIC. 14:02:34 The extra keys are for terminals. 14:02:41 ehird, numpad looks fairly normal apart from *some* of those blue labels 14:02:50 LOL, I like the num lock key. It's scroll lock too. 14:02:54 What a compromise for such a huge board. 14:03:01 AnMaster: It has a space key on the /. 14:03:05 the "home/pgup" and such on the numeric ones. are on my keyboard 14:03:05 And the + key doubles up as tab. 14:03:11 ehird, hm *why* 14:03:18 Accountants. 14:03:20 Data entry. 14:03:22 That's what the numpad is for. 14:03:25 oh hah 14:03:27 true 14:03:30 What did you think it was for — emulating a calculator? 14:03:51 Take a look at that numpad area. "FidMk\n\nFA2\n\blue{PgUp}" 14:04:00 Ooh, and more on the side. 14:04:05 ChgRq? Can't read it properly. 14:04:07 Best key ever. 14:04:09 ehird, nah, more like a well aligned set of keys that you can use for 8 directions in tile based games (of course not) 14:04:18 You could just have that key and some modifiers. 14:04:23 And do EVERYTHING. 14:04:35 Erm 14:04:37 not numpad area 14:04:38 arrow key area 14:04:40 Of course 14:04:49 ehird, but why "rule"? 14:04:58 what happens when you press that I wonder 14:05:08 Probably a horizontal rule in a word processor? Or something. 14:05:36 "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P 14:05:44 And "Test" below that; how convenient. 14:05:47 Computer, test my software 14:05:52 *Computer, test my software! 14:06:05 AnMaster: That huge terminal board is just 2.36 kg. 14:06:06 "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P <-- I don't get it? 14:06:14 So saying that the much smaller Model F is 3 kg... 14:06:19 and imagining a Model F terminal board... 14:06:20 TANK 14:06:26 reset\nctrl\nquit? 14:06:27 :) 14:06:48 AnMaster: Logic Pro = Apple's acquiring of eMagic Logic = professional music software 14:06:59 My dad has Logic for the Atari ST. :-) 14:07:00 ehird, wow at the "profile" picture in http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5264&page=2 14:07:10 He bought the ST on the day it came out in the UK. 14:07:15 "The risers on these are good fun, on the high setting the top is about 12cm off the desk:" 14:07:26 fucking hell 14:07:57 ehird, heh 14:08:09 ehird, he works with music? 14:08:26 ehird, also that tab key is a bit strange 14:08:29 ← 14:08:36 → 14:08:37 ← 14:08:37 He used to be involved with that sort of stuff, but he's been a phone-call technician for an audio technology company for as long as I can remember. 14:08:38 like that 14:08:42 err wait 14:08:47 I got the lower arrow wrong 14:08:48 → 14:08:49 I mean 14:08:50 The Atari ST worked as of some years ago. 14:08:52 meant* 14:08:52 for it 14:09:05 It played Monkey Island like a champ; and old audio software sure is confusing. 14:09:10 At least when you're a kid like I was... 14:09:21 ehird, it is more confusing than modern audio software? 14:09:25 also doesn't it work any longer? 14:09:28 The resolutions are fun; the high one is much taller than it is wide so it's hard to read any text. 14:09:39 AnMaster: I don't know; I haven't been to his house since ~2005. 14:09:53 ehird, oh? parents split up? :/ 14:09:54 AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that. 14:09:57 Just a guess. 14:10:01 AnMaster: Yes, when I was 3 14:10:22 "atari monkey island" in google image source doth not produce useful results 14:10:32 AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that. <-- "it" meaning modern or old? 14:10:35 There we go. http://www.scummbar.com/games/monkey1/images/atari.gif 14:10:39 AnMaster: Old. 14:11:09 AnMaster: oh that geekhack page you linked: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/6110344/front_1v.jpg 14:11:11 *On 14:11:14 Model F terminal board! 14:11:19 it is? 14:11:20 It looks just as much like a tank as I'd expect. 14:11:20 nice 14:11:32 ehird, what is the text under those F keys at the top 14:11:33 can't read it 14:11:39 Nor can I. 14:13:42 ehird, why stop at 24 function keys 14:14:10 to match the current trend we should really have 64-bi^Wfunction keyboard 14:15:08 "To input a number, hold down the keys F1-64 to insert a binary number, and hit enter." 14:15:11 It truly is 64-bits! 14:15:15 ehird, that would be an aircraft carrier! (continuing the military analogy) 14:15:35 ehird, heh 14:15:36 An inexplicably air- and space-borne ultimate half of an aircraft carrier. 14:15:59 ehird, "ultimate half" meaning? 14:16:18 Well, it was half of an aircraft carrier, and I turned my aircraft carriers into ultimate aircraft carriers, so... 14:16:21 (The point thing.) 14:16:28 oh THAT 14:16:29 right 14:16:50 better idea 14:16:54 a LaTeX keyboard 14:17:02 with keys for commonly used stuff 14:17:27 like a key marked \hphantom{ 14:17:30 or such 14:17:50 and a "math mode lock" 14:18:43 that would change large parts of those special keys to math mode ones instead 14:18:51 (there would have to be a math shift too) 14:19:31 nice, it seems AltGr really is "ISO Level3 Shift". Never knew 14:21:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:25:25 I want this: http://www.bluesnews.com/miscimages/tmmarble150.gif 14:29:14 ehird, I want one that works equally well in either hand (most likely impossible) 14:29:25 They exist; finger-controlled. 14:29:31 Thumb trackballs appear to be better, however. 14:29:37 Anyway, why? 14:29:40 ehird, I meant thumb ones. It could work however 14:29:45 by having it swappable 14:29:58 like pulling part of the left and right side away and switching their places 14:30:05 had to be a cleaver design that could be mirrored 14:30:05 Anyway, why? 14:30:20 ehird, because I use both hands for mice normally? 14:30:35 * AnMaster has a symmetric mouse for that reason 14:30:43 No reason to with a trackball. Everything's stationary. 14:30:45 atm I'm using left, but just a while ago right 14:31:07 Besides, the fine motor skills you need in your thumb probably take a while to develop. 14:31:10 Of course it's best to have a keyboard without a number pad. 14:31:12 ehird, to reduce strain on thumb? 14:31:20 That way it's easier to reach by far. 14:31:21 ehird, for you maybe 14:31:28 For any mousing. 14:31:49 ehird, well, put the number pad on the side you don't use the mice on atm? 14:31:55 And if you don't care enough about the mouse to chop off the number pad for your main computer-usage board, don't bother paying the extra for a trackball. 14:31:56 as in, movable number pad 14:32:04 Just get a $5 mouse because you clearly don't care about your pointing experience. 14:32:10 ehird, that's because I use the number pad... 14:32:44 Then obviously the immense pain of swapping keyboards when you need the number pad, or plugging in a separate numberpad, outweighs all advantages of pointing to you. 14:32:50 So, just get a $5 mouse. 14:33:00 (Separate numberpads do exist and are easily available.) 14:34:04 As an aside, do you know if Xkb can be told to use a different key map for a separate numpad than for the primary keyboard? 14:34:21 AH, THE OTHER KEYBOARDIC PERSON HERE hi 14:34:26 Probably 14:34:31 It appears as a separate keyboard, yyeah? 14:34:39 ehird, you missed my point completelt 14:34:41 Define "appears as" 14:34:42 completely* 14:34:47 but whatever 14:34:54 If I try stuff out in xev I see no difference between them 14:35:08 AnMaster: You know, the intent of communication is to transfer a thought to someone else. If I misunderstood that's not my fault. 14:35:19 Deewiant: Do they appear as different keyboard objects, so to speak 14:35:20 I don't know where I could see a difference between which keyboard a keypress came from 14:35:23 Different devices 14:35:27 ehird, same goes in the other direction I assume? :P 14:35:29 Check what X thinks its xorg.conf is 14:35:31 or whatever 14:35:32 ehird: Where would I check? 14:35:36 X -configure 14:35:39 as root 14:35:47 ehird, you seem to blame me for not understanding you a lot... 14:35:51 will start X, dump a hueg liek xbox config file into your current dir, and tada 14:35:59 AnMaster: Yes, but I readily admit I'm a hypocrite. 14:36:34 ehird: I use input hotplugging, keyboards aren't in xorg.conf. 14:36:40 ehird, sigh 14:36:58 Deewiant: irrelevant 14:37:04 X -configure dumps everything it has right now 14:37:09 It even works on HAL 14:37:18 That'd require stopping X. :-/ 14:37:43 Waah. 14:37:58 Detach all the processes from X11 somehow so you can reattach them. Somehow. :P 14:38:08 See, if X was well-designed they wouldn't depend on the X server being alive to stay alive... 14:38:49 Well, I just stopped X. 14:38:51 Deewiant, try xinput(1) maybe= 14:38:54 s/=/?/ 14:38:55 Only one InputDevice. 14:39:07 Deewiant: Write two sections manually, I guess. 14:39:09 and yeah -configure wouldn't help 14:39:13 You can't hotplug PS/2 anyway. 14:39:24 *officially 14:39:28 It's worked fine for me so far. :-P 14:39:33 And the numpad's USB anyway. 14:39:45 (Only one PS/2 port necessitates that.) 14:40:22 Here's a nickel, kid; go buy one more PS/... no, wait... one less PS/... no, um, never mind. 14:40:58 I wonder if scrolling with a wheel-less trackball is practical. 14:41:53 Hmm, I wonder if I need MPX for this to work. 14:42:58 Well, I evidently have MPX, since it's in 1.7. 14:44:15 Hmm, maybe that's what broke my key repeat settings recently. 14:44:46 (Pressing any key apart from numlock on the numpad causes backspace [capslock] to no longer repeat) 14:46:22 Deewiant, mpx? 14:46:48 http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=mpx 14:47:52 Old school, all the kids are using lmgtfy 14:48:04 MPX is for, you know, pointers, innit? 14:48:10 Sorry for being old school 14:48:15 Did I say it was bad 14:48:19 lmgtfy requires javascript, which AnMaster won't have enabled 14:48:41 Your client does not have permission to get URL /custom?q=mpx&sa=Search&client=pub-5834014132134539&forid=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en from this server. (Client IP address: 212.183.134.129) 14:48:42 hurf durf 14:48:48 Deewiant: He probably disabled meta refreshes too. 14:48:58 I doubt lynx supports them, actually. 14:49:03 Or is it elinks he uses. 14:49:09 The page links to the appropriate google search directly. 14:49:13 Maybe Konqueror broke it in KHTML "Dead and Buried" 33.4 14:49:23 Deewiant: It's a 403 for me, at least :P 14:49:27 (The redirect) 14:49:36 I talked about the link, not the redirect. 14:49:46 Rather, the links, of which there are three. 14:49:59 Redirect seems to work fine for me. 14:51:36 ehird, w3m 14:51:44 No, that's ais523. 14:58:52 Whee, nice syntax. 15:07:44 i'm a point, i'm a ball, i'm a stick, i'm a stall 15:14:19 No, that's ais523. <-- huh? I use both lynx and w3m. I don't use links2 much, and elinks I don't even have installed 15:16:05 A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300 15:16:05 per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm. 15:18:26 "closed captioner"? 15:19:14 "Many users of this machine can even reach 30 15:19:14 per minute" 15:19:18 that doesn't seem right 15:19:21 did a 0 get lost there? 15:19:24 http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=closed+captioner 15:19:26 Yes. 15:19:31 And " words " 15:19:34 "The righardware template is no good, so I'm not using it." 15:20:08 righardware? 15:21:28 ah so that is what closed captioning is 15:25:09 righardware is a template on the wearable computing wiki. 15:26:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Steno-example.gif 15:26:54 ehird, pretty, but what the heck is that mapping? 15:27:16 [15:16] ehird: A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can 15:27:18 reach 300 words per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm. 15:27:22 yes 15:27:24 it's stenospeak 15:27:25 I read that 15:27:33 ehird, but I asked for encoding table or such 15:27:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographersv 15:27:43 oops 15:27:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographers 15:31:06 "Many users of this machine can even reach 30 15:31:08 per minute" 15:31:10 He meant 30 pages. 15:31:29 and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and per the 15:31:32 I absolutely did not. 15:31:33 Stenographers can write a book in ten minutes. 15:31:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype has the mapping 15:31:48 Gregor: Are you joking or what :P 15:36:07 good question 15:51:51 I just noticed that mac os thinks that sheepshaver's emulated disks are "internal floppy drive"s. A 500 MB floppy drive eh 15:52:14 Hm. 15:52:15 Basilisk II ftw. 15:52:19 No, awit. 15:52:21 that's the one that sucks 15:52:22 Observation: gnash actually ... like ... works 'n stuff. 15:52:23 Kinda. 15:52:24 Mini vMac ftw. 15:52:30 Gregor: Not on YouTube last I tried. 15:52:40 Then again I couldn't be fucked to compile it myself, I just used Ubuntu's package 15:52:41 ehird, well it can't run the old games I want. Not even Basilisk II can 15:52:41 I'm using YouTube right now. 15:52:46 Gregor: CPU usage? 15:52:46 And I'm on sidux :P 15:52:47 and mini vmac is for even older 15:52:57 Mini vMac is = Basilisk II in recentness. 15:53:00 Emulates a Mac Pluss. 15:53:01 ehird: Pretty high, but only one of my quadcore. 15:53:06 Gregor: Sidux? Frls? xd 15:53:07 *xD 15:53:14 ehird, basilisk II emulates a quadra iirc? 15:53:19 Also, great, so it's just like the actual Flash player but it works less. 15:53:19 (spelling?) 15:53:30 Yes, I'm actually using sidux. It's awesomesauce. 15:53:34 AnMaster: It's a setting. But Mac Plus is fine for 68k. 15:53:44 Gregor: What's it got over sid 15:54:02 hm 15:54:17 ehird: They have a repo of stuff that's sort of a fixed-sid. It's a little bit intermediate between sid and testing. 15:54:54 I'd just use testing since, you know, Debian devs won't pander to people who want a "stable sid" so sidux is kinda fighting the tide. 15:54:59 bbl 15:55:07 Well, that's a lie; I'd actually use mine. Which I need to name really quickly. 15:55:53 I had used testing, I'm trying out sidux now. 15:57:46 AsOfYetUnnamedThing FTW! 15:57:49 It's totally kick-raddin'. 15:57:56 -!- oklokok has joined. 15:57:59 If it existed yet. 15:58:03 Just need hardwarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. 15:58:11 Yes, a war that is hard is what I need. 16:13:04 btw, I've already switched to proprieflash :P 16:13:37 ehird, emulator to begin with? 16:13:58 Emulator? I hardly knew 'er! 16:14:13 (Emulator? Damn near killed 'em!) 16:14:33 Gregor: I thought that was a keyboard layout for a second 16:14:34 ... 16:14:35 I don't know why 16:15:40 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 16:16:04 -!- oklokok has joined. 16:16:50 Yay sntax 16:16:52 *syntax 16:17:33 WOO A NEW XKCD. It's an unfunny non-joke like always 16:18:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:33:25 So, rwx.st got squatted days after I saw it was available. 16:33:47 Looks like Swedish to me; AnMaster — some broadband company? 16:34:07 http://www.bahnhof.se/ is the company, it seems. 16:34:19 http://www.bahnhof.se/privat/ 16:34:19 Yep 16:34:23 " 16:34:23 that's an ISP in Sweden iirc. Or maybe backbone company 16:34:24 not sure 16:34:24 Bahnhof är Sveriges största oberoende och fristående internetoperatör." 16:34:56 "Bahnhof is Sweden's largest independent and freestanding internet operator" 16:48:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:48:38 Deewiant, really? Hm 16:48:40 oerjan, iwc 16:57:29 to do a zen pogrom, you first have to learn not to do a zen pogrom. 16:57:32 * ehird comes up with a fun little *unixy* design for a combined screen saver/locker 16:58:31 no no, a unixy design would clearly have the screen saver and locker as separate programs 16:58:54 oerjan, indeed. In fact that is what xscreensaver does 16:59:04 for security reasons 16:59:14 oerjan: yes, mine does 16:59:21 specifically, a screen saver can be any program at all, no special api 16:59:37 ehird, it has to be full screen though? 16:59:46 but you said "combined"... 16:59:51 oerjan: well, sort of 16:59:51 the locker basically just does the magic locking, overlays the screen with black, and then optionally starts your screensaver program 17:00:02 ehird, that isn't combined 17:00:05 it is, ffs 17:00:10 if you'd listen 17:00:13 fuck it, no point explaining 17:00:15 ehird, how? it runs two apps 17:00:26 the locker, and the app on top 17:00:29 firstly, they're not apps, they're programs. 17:00:32 secondly, there is no secondly 17:00:55 ehird, define the difference between an application and a program? 17:01:06 an application is what WIMP guis have 17:01:17 a program is a self-contained black-box like a function 17:01:27 brb phone 17:01:32 unixy programs are either written in C or compositions of other programs. 17:01:45 anyway, it's combined because you can use it to do both, duh 17:01:55 it's a combined screen locker/saver *engine- 17:01:58 **engine* 17:02:11 just because it doesn't include any actual screen savers doesn't mean it isn't a combined screen locker/saver 17:03:20 very zen. 17:04:21 i've eaten semi-recently and i'm not tired, so i'm fairly sure either the sides of my bed swapped overnight making me exit through the wrong one, or you're all being especially annoying today :| 17:04:32 ANYWAY 17:04:43 the advantage of the design is that you can use any program as the screensaver 17:04:57 xlogo, glxgears, even an xterm running top or something 17:04:57 naturally if the sides swapped you must now be in the mirror universe 17:05:03 do you have a goatee? 17:05:07 yes. 17:05:10 (no) 17:05:11 darn 17:05:18 oh 17:05:20 heck, you could even run xscreensaver's screensaver 17:05:24 if you wanted to, for some reason 17:05:31 (not the locker though, that'd Break Shit) 17:05:40 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 17:06:02 and a changing screensaver is just a shell script that goes through a list in random order, spawns it, sleeps N seconds, kills it, and runs the next one 17:06:35 (the locker will capture all keyboard and mouse events so it's safe) 17:10:38 i believe you could even set the screensaver to a program that turns off the display 17:11:12 well, it might not be that simple since it has to turn back on to show the password prompt or return to the computer, but easy enough 17:14:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:16:38 oh do you have a *goatee*, was kinda far from the screen and thought oerjan asked if you had a goatse, like mirror universe => inverse ass... or something 17:17:38 well that's my contribution -> 17:18:17 well now you are just talking out your ass 17:19:09 *out of 17:33:46 what the hell is *.wps 17:34:09 I guessed word perfect but that didn't work. file(1) says "microsoft office document" but trying as that doesn't work either 17:34:47 and I tried works too btw. 17:34:53 didn't work either 17:34:56 very strange 17:35:24 It's Microsoft Works. 17:35:32 ehird, isn't works .wks? 17:35:43 I don't know, I just googled. Like you should have. 17:35:52 Detailed information for file extension WPS: 17:35:53 Primary association: Works 17:35:53 Company: Microsoft Corporation 17:35:53 Mime type: application/vnd.ms-works, application/x-msworks-wp, zz-application/zz-winassoc-wps, text/plain 17:35:53 Identifying characters Hex: D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A E1 00 , ASCII: 17:35:54 Program ID: MicrosoftWorks.WordProcessor.5 , MSWorks4WordProcessor , Works.Word.Document.8 17:35:55 ehird, it didn't work to convert from that 17:35:55 Related links: Microsoft Office Home Page, MS Article: Open Works in Word, OpenOffice.org 17:36:01 Converter's fault. 17:36:20 ehird, tried MS word's own works converter 17:37:18 Try Works itself. 17:37:32 ehird, don't have it 17:37:37 Pirate it. 17:37:54 ehird, takes too long. Told the person to re-send it as rtf 17:38:04 Why didn't you do that first thing? 17:38:44 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3502&stc=1&d=1249088737 17:38:45 ehird, because there is a certain risk of having to tell the person how to do that. 17:38:45 Pictured: a Boscom keyboard being dropped from a ladder. 17:38:49 In stop motion! 17:38:49 which would be possibly worse 17:39:11 ehird, did it work after? 17:39:14 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3503&stc=1&d=1249088928 17:39:14 and why did they do that 17:39:15 Various parts jumping ship. 17:39:28 AnMaster: Think so, yes. To see how high you need to drop it from to destroy the rivets. 17:39:46 It's MythBusters-style "science" and it's hilarious. 17:39:56 ehird, even with those parts jumping out of it? 17:40:04 Those are just parts of the rivets, I believe. 17:40:15 http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3509&stc=1&d=1249142093 17:40:15 Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard. 17:40:30 "What's surprising is that plugging it in MOST of the keys work fine - All the Function keys, most of the main cluster except the left modifiers. Numpad and weird keys on left are toast. Not bad for a 12 foot concrete drop." 17:40:42 Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard. <-- huh? 17:40:51 Look closely. 17:41:01 The case has been warped by the drops. 17:41:06 oh right the bottom isn't straight 17:41:22 ehird, sure it isn't due to a wide angle camera lens? 17:41:33 Since I stole the joke from the post, I'm sure./ 17:41:39 s/\/$// 17:41:40 heh 17:42:09 ehird, n-key roll over? 17:42:56 All Model Ms and followups (Unicomp (who took over from Lexmark who took over from IBM) are the OEM for Boscom) get something like 12-key rollover. Or was it 20? 17:43:01 Not n-key, that's a recent thing. 17:43:06 But higher than your average board. 17:43:18 USB only does 6-key rollover anyway, and only gamers complain. 17:43:34 And most keyboards in general only get about 3-key rollover. 17:43:35 So it's kinda moot. 17:44:19 ehird, does modifier keys count separately? 17:44:49 It varies based on the matrix. It's very complicated. 17:44:55 There are a few standard tests to work out the rollover. 17:44:58 ehird, my main issue is that my current keyboard doesn't allow Alt-Space-Right arrow (alt-space-left-arrow works fine) 17:45:20 Which? ThinkPad? 17:45:22 remapping to ctrl makes ctrl-space-right work but not ctrl-space-left 17:45:26 ehird, no, desktop 17:45:32 Oh, that crappy PS/2 17:46:11 ehird, btw, when did you last see a laptop with full sized arrow keys? 17:46:36 My shitty netbook. 17:46:42 mhm 17:47:08 i love how I can middle-click a button in safari to submit a form in a new tab 17:47:11 great for e.g. search fields 17:47:41 ehird, does that work in firefox (I don't think I ever tried) 17:48:29 hm nop. 17:48:31 nope* 17:48:53 try ctrl+click 17:50:10 ehird, did you know that Microsoft's Virtual PC was originally based on a mac program with the same name? 17:50:18 of which I just found a copy in an old box 17:50:25 It's still offered today. 17:50:30 ehird, for mac? 17:50:31 heh 17:50:34 Yes. 17:50:46 this is 3.0 btw 17:50:57 In July 2006 Microsoft released the Windows-hosted version as a free product.[1] In August 2006 Microsoft announced the Macintosh-hosted version would not be ported to Intel-based Macintosh computers, effectively discontinuing the product as PowerPC-based Macintosh computers are no longer manufactured. The newest release, Windows Virtual PC is available only for Windows 7 hosts. 17:50:58 Well, OK 17:51:19 ehird, maybe I should try to install it under the mac emulator, and run linux in it 17:51:48 And run SheepShaver from the Linux. 17:51:55 Pretty sure Virtual PC is Windows only though 17:51:57 guest 17:52:05 ehird, nop, I ran linux under it before 17:52:10 ages ago 17:52:10 Go for it then 17:52:22 ehird, yeah will 17:52:57 Name for a bug tracking system: Samsa 17:53:16 ehird, however, I'm sceptical of it working.... Sheepshaver isn't exactly reliable even with other programs. And VirtualPC did something to put the CPU in little endian mode iirc 17:55:54 ehird, meh, starting virtualpc makes sheepshaver segfault. 100% reproducible. 17:56:00 try mini vmac. 17:56:08 no configuration required ;-) 17:56:10 ehird, it needs OS 8 or later. PPC 17:56:16 mini vmac is ppc 17:56:38 ehird, oh you mean running mini vmac under sheepshaver? 17:56:44 no 17:57:16 wait, it isn't ppc 17:57:18 it's 68k 17:57:29 AnMaster: if you have a windows host you could try vmac 17:57:38 ehird, can't it run on linux? 17:57:49 oh, vmac is 68k only too 17:58:03 hmm it does run on linux yes 17:58:10 unmainntained since '98 though :) 17:58:13 *unmaintained 17:58:14 http://www.vmac.org/ 17:58:15 ehird, why do you think I'm using sheepshaver if there was an alternative for PPC OS 8/9 17:58:16 ? 17:58:24 dunno? 17:58:29 meh 17:59:08 ehird, sheepshaver is crashy, and buggy. Like I want to run those old avernum games. Avernum 1 and avernum 2 works fine. Avernum 3 gives a blank screen. :( 17:59:10 rc shell is so <3 17:59:14 same for blades of avernum 17:59:20 sheepshaver is shit, basilisk ii is also shit but slightly less so 17:59:30 ehird, basilisk II is 68k 17:59:32 mini vmac is 700x less shitty than both if you can do 68k 17:59:36 AnMaster: i know that. 17:59:44 i was running through all the current mac emulators 17:59:45 and these games are PPC 17:59:51 stfu 18:00:02 I think they might run under OS X. Not sure though 18:00:21 ehird, does intel OS X's rosetta support Carbon? Or only Coca? 18:00:23 AnMaster: Classic just runs OS 9 in OS X basically 18:00:30 It supports Carbon 18:00:36 ehird, I checked, they link to carbon. 18:00:38 hm 18:00:44 but I don't think classic binaries would work, Mach-O and the like ... 18:00:46 however 18:00:50 ah 18:00:51 feel free to email them to penguinofthegods@gmail.com 18:00:53 and I'll try them 18:00:59 there IS a chance they'll work 18:01:04 rosetta is just a ppc emulator, btw 18:01:06 a fast one too 18:01:16 photoshop cs3 is almost usable on this imac with it 18:01:22 and it's what people used on mac pros for a while 18:01:38 slower than a g5, sure... but still probably the fastest totally-different-CPU emulator out there 18:01:51 ehird, I can provide you with download link. They are shareware (only part of the game world available unregistered) with "response code" system. As in, on install they generate a key, and you have to enter a response key 18:02:00 there are cracks around (that runs on windows) 18:02:06 err 18:02:06 Okay. 18:02:09 s/cracks/keygens/ 18:02:14 ehird, sec for download link 18:02:32 ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin 18:02:43 .bin ;_; 18:02:49 ehird, what about .bin? 18:02:53 it is the standard isn't it? 18:03:02 Yes ... ten years ago 18:03:03 ehird, hqx is more annoying 18:03:21 That download appears to have failed, I'll try wget 18:03:22 I could download it and repack it as .sit.hqx I guess... 18:03:28 OS X does .bin it seems 18:03:42 ehird, I know I wgeted it to the shared folder thing 18:03:43 No such file `Avernum3.demo.bin'. 18:03:46 huh 18:03:49 thou failest to the top amount! 18:03:59 ehird, ah try ftp://ftp.spiderwebsoftware.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.v101.bin 18:03:59 * ehird opens the directory it's in 18:04:00 then 18:04:06 oh hm 18:04:14 Works, how queer. 18:04:19 And I can see it in the folder, but eh. 18:04:23 (The irony one) 18:04:26 (Spider one works) 18:04:46 ehird, spiderwebsoftware is the ones that produced it btw 18:05:19 ehird, and the latter link is an older version. Oh heh it says they ported it to native OS X in the later version. 18:05:22 that explains a lot 18:05:39 well. I guess if I could get OS X to run in some emulator I could use it 18:05:45 pearpc? 18:05:56 VirtualBox + OSX86 18:06:10 ehird, that works? Hardware compat and such I mean 18:06:10 I suggest Snow Leopard, since it has the Intel optimisations 18:06:18 AnMaster: Try qemu if not 18:06:23 Slow but usable, since it emulates real hardware 18:06:43 ehird, well I'm pretty sure qemu doesn't emulate the right hardware. Some cirrus graphics card for exampl 18:06:47 example* 18:07:07 ehird, as far as I heard OS X is incredibly picky about hardware? 18:07:48 OSx86 people make drivers. 18:08:03 You could also just install it to another partition 18:08:15 Although it'd have to be like 10 GiB 18:08:22 "meh" 18:08:30 rc=`{echo $rc+1 | bc} 18:08:43 rc's only disadvantage is that saying rc++ is loquacious :P 18:08:43 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:09:19 ehird, what exactly does that code do? 18:09:33 Same as rc=$(echo "$rc"+1 | bc) 18:09:41 in bash 18:10:11 oh something like (( rc++)) then? 18:10:13 ; fn ++ { eval '$'^$1^'=`{echo $'^$1^'+1 | bc}' } 18:10:14 ; rc=3 18:10:14 ; ++ rc 18:10:14 ; echo $rc 18:10:15 3 18:10:15 If only we had something like Tcl's uplevel! XD 18:10:15 or let rc=rc+1 18:10:17 or such 18:10:18 (Warning: Awful hack above) 18:10:26 AnMaster: Yes, it's rc=rc+1 18:10:38 rc is a shell, so you use a calculator command to calculate things. 18:10:50 It's not intended for mathematics-heavy code. 18:11:06 ehird, well right. But most programming languages have some way to increment variables. Even if not for math heavy things 18:11:08 It's very good as a scripting language; in fact, I don't see all that many uses for Python if you have rc. 18:11:11 but, say, loops and such 18:11:20 AnMaster: seq(1) 18:11:30 for(i in `{seq 10}) echo $i 18:11:41 ehird, not standard 18:11:46 not sure if *BSD has it 18:11:51 Everything is standard, it's a fucking shell 18:11:58 The whole point is that you compose together little unixy tools 18:12:00 ehird, I mean seq(1) isn't 18:12:01 ... 18:12:19 The point 18:12:20 (I won't bother putting your head, I'd have to flood empty lines for decades) 18:12:38 but sure, if you have that tool it would work 18:13:00 Yeah and what if you had a Python with all arithmetic capabilities removed?! 18:13:03 IT WOULDN'T WORK THEN 18:13:07 Python is unusable for arithmetic. 18:14:02 ehird, it is? 18:14:10 Well I just proved it didn't I 18:14:23 didn't work with it removed yes 18:14:34 but that isn't what you said in the last line 18:14:35 97% [====================================> ] 11,621,224 18.1K/s eta 19s 18:14:52 AnMaster: And that rc script won't remove if you remove a very useful tool like seq. 18:15:00 It's called "dependencies". 18:15:07 All software has them. 18:15:08 won't remove? won't work you mean? 18:15:16 Typo. 18:15:48 http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/seq.html 18:15:56 plan9port has seq. Depend on that or something. 18:16:05 Anyway such loops are useless generally. 18:16:13 It's very rare that a from i=0 to n can't be rephrased in a better way. 18:17:03 plan9port is where everyone gets their rc anyway, or the fork 9babse 18:17:05 *9base 18:17:11 http://imgur.com/NeGZp.png 18:17:13 STOP SMILING AT ME MACINTOSH 18:17:17 I am not happy with you 18:17:18 I am displeased 18:19:04 ehird, true "for i in foo" is often possible 18:19:15 and when possible, better 18:19:18 Among other constructs. 18:19:24 This is totally irrelevant, you know. 18:19:28 ah interesting. 18:19:33 ehird, did the more recent avernum 3 work? 18:19:40 as in, actually launch? 18:19:43 Is it for OS X? 18:19:54 If not, it will not work. Classic in OS X is dead, no longer supported, end of. 18:20:33 ehird, as far as I understand it, yes. says "Avernum 3 runs natively under Macintosh OS X.". And that the last version no longer supports OS 9 and older 18:20:50 Link. 18:21:08 ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin (the spiderwebsoftware one was the older version) 18:21:09 * ehird compiles the Heirloom Toolchest 18:21:15 .bin? Not OS X. 18:21:19 ehird, welcome to the club 18:21:20 Don't you mean the dmg? 18:21:26 Which club? 18:21:35 ehird, of having Heirloom Toolchest installed 18:21:58 Gee, what a club. Not like you probably use it as your main tools... 18:22:03 Coreutils *spits* 18:22:08 *spits VENOM* 18:22:19 ehird, actually /bin/vi is from heirloom :P 18:22:28 (but I don't use that) 18:22:30 No it's not 18:22:30 It's from nv 18:22:31 nvi 18:22:36 Same person different project 18:22:44 This demo is .bin, it's definitely Classic-only 18:22:49 There's an Avenrum 4 dmg though 18:22:51 *Avernum 18:23:00 ehird, avernum 4 doesn't really interest me. Too modern :/ 18:24:54 ehird, okay so I guess avernum 3 is a lost hope. But blades of avernum seems to have a dmg version too. That should work 18:25:03 link 18:25:08 ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/BladesofAvernumDemo.dmg 18:25:13 will download soon. 18:25:28 cc install_ucb.o -L../libcommon -lcommon -o install_ucb 18:25:28 Undefined symbols: 18:25:28 "_pfmt_label__", referenced from: 18:25:28 _pfmt_label__$non_lazy_ptr in libcommon.a(getopt.o) 18:25:29 ld: symbol(s) not found 18:25:30 Eh 18:25:30 ehird, althrough it says "demo" it is the same as the full one. A bit strange 18:25:43 ehird, no fucking clue. Never hit that. 18:25:50 I would remember 18:26:12 ehird, is this mach-O or ELF? 18:26:30 macho 18:26:34 Heirloom 18:26:36 ah 18:26:44 wouldn't surprise me if it was related to that 18:27:43 ehird, but I wonder what sort of linker trick they are doing to cause that. 18:27:54 None, it's regular code. 18:28:01 Just an undefined symbol. 18:28:20 ehird, what about the $non_lazy_ptr bit? 18:29:03 ehird, and: can you find the definition elsewhere in the code? 18:29:40 Too lazy, already rm -rf'd. 18:29:51 ehird, oh btw did you make -j? 18:29:56 or single thread? 18:30:28 googling suggests there is a pfmt_label.c around 18:30:33 just make 18:30:40 maybe i got configuration wrong blah blah 18:30:43 hm no possible race condition about that then 18:30:49 ehird, maybe. Complex config? 18:31:02 just some make variables, skimmed them 18:31:16 too lazy to care, going to continue fawning over my awesome latex-style syntax 18:32:41 ehird, latex-style syntax for? 18:32:47 shell? 18:33:17 Written-in-rc little web publishing-style system, because I need to get off my arse and publish software ands tuff. 18:33:19 *and stuff 18:33:45 ehird, anything wrong with markdown? 18:33:48 Extensible, so it's sort of like a web framework that also handles navigation and other site-like things for you. 18:33:50 Except much simpler. 18:33:50 (and similar) 18:34:21 AnMaster: Yes; it's kind of ugly, some bits are unintuitive, and fundamentally it fails at being so easy as to not require thinking, but it's "free" enough to require even more thought, as your brain doesn't go into code mode. 18:34:35 Plus, mine is simpler, and handles more advanced structures better. 18:34:38 ehird, iirc there was some sort of "hypercard for the web" software called "livecard" or something like that. Maybe that would work? XD 18:34:42 Lawl. 18:35:27 ehird, http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pinto/hc4.html (search for "How can I get my HyperCard stack on the web") 18:35:42 Thanks but no thanks. 18:39:08 Ha, Model Ms are "technically" 2-key rolloverr 18:39:12 *rollover 18:39:17 Because "ASX" fails 18:39:32 ehird, does ghn work? 18:39:39 Dunno. Most combinations should work. 18:39:47 Without n-key rollover you'll always have edge cases. 18:39:54 ehird, they have the same relative placement though 18:39:59 that was my point 18:40:06 Ah. 18:40:09 That's not how the matrix works. 18:40:10 Hey, the AT Model Fs are N-key rollover. 18:40:28 ehird, I never studied keyboards much, wouldn't know 18:41:40 Keyboards are awesome 18:42:37 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 18:43:35 "This site uses AJAX to generate page content. You need to enable Javascript in your browser and reload the page in order to see it." <-- argh. That is quite horrible. 18:43:50 Which page? 18:43:55 http://alex.csgraf.de/self/?qemu/ 18:44:13 found when reading various stuff about OSx86. 18:44:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:44:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:44:19 linked from virtualbox forum 18:44:27 post from 2007 so could be completely outdated info 18:44:50 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:45:24 "Mac OS X is a really great Operating System. They did a lot of things right, especially in the Interface parts. Sadly it is neither the fastest Operating System, nor the securest out there." 18:45:26 o_x 18:45:28 OpenBSD retard? 18:45:33 OS X is a pretty fucking secure BSD... 18:47:03 http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html seems to be a decent httpd... sure would be nice not to have to write my own :P 18:47:27 ehird, thttpd? 18:47:34 that is about as minimal as you can get 18:48:02 As seen at http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html thttpd is about as scalable than nostromo, and nostromo is about as minimal as thttpd. 18:48:10 Difference is that thttpd is practically unmaintained. 18:48:37 ehird, they didn't test with more than 300 clients? 18:48:43 And a large aspect of thttpd, "It also has one extremely useful feature (URL-traffic-based throttling) that no other server currently has.", is totally useless to me. 18:48:55 AnMaster: running server benchmarks takes a lot of resources, and besides: 18:49:02 apache 1.3.29 18:49:02 Client: resurrection, Sun Ultra 2, SPARC 400MHz, 100Mbit NIC 18:49:03 Server: gollum, Intel, x86 3GHz, 100Mbit NIC 18:49:11 seems pretty old yeah 18:49:19 But you can clearly see from the graph that nostromo scales linearly. 18:49:28 Apart from CGI. 18:49:31 It seems to level off there. 18:49:42 I wonder what caused the spike in http://www.nazgul.ch/images/httperf_small-l.png. 18:49:57 ehird, I suspect nostromo will level off at some point too. Just a hunch. 18:50:10 it does use select() after all. 18:50:16 And? 18:50:33 Of course nothing can scale linearly, don't you know the first thing about computers? Limited resources. 18:50:53 ehird, well yes. But I meant before something using epoll will level off. 18:50:56 just a hunch. 18:50:58 Why? 18:51:02 Because epoll is shiny and new? 18:51:28 ehird, because epoll doesn't need to send the fd list to the kernel every time you want to wait for something to happen 18:52:27 Eh. It doesn't really matter all that much. 18:52:29 with many concurrent clients that might all send you some data soon, this could be an issue. 18:52:45 I mean, CGI will be a bottleneck far before select. 18:53:06 I was just showing that nostromo scales as well as thttpd, which is a good indicator of simplicity and good design. 18:53:17 ehird, iirc http allows you to reuse a connection for several requests? Like fetching images related to the page in the same connection. Might be HTTP/1.1 only or such 18:53:32 Yeah, I don't give a damn about that 18:53:37 If I wrote a server I probably wouldn't support it 18:54:31 ehird, is that allowed by standard? Because if it isn't I'm fairly certain that it might cause problems with modern browsers. At least firefox makes use of it. 18:54:35 and probably other browsers too 18:54:54 Of course if the browser sends Connection: keep-alive or whatever it is but the connection closes anyway it just makes a new connection. 18:55:05 hm true 18:55:07 There are plenty of situations where it doesn't work, I believe. 18:55:12 No biggie. 18:55:18 ehird, anyway. You probably won't need to scale that much in the beginning. If you find out it doesn't scale you could replace it with something else 18:55:29 Of course. 18:55:51 I'm more interested in fast page loads with no-to-little load. 18:56:02 ehird, on the computer? 18:56:08 Over the interwebternets. 18:56:33 -!- augur has joined. 18:56:34 That's the actually applicable situation; of course, I want pages to load very quickly (perfectly possible, e.g. Cherokee achieves this without any tweaking), and I probably won't get many concurrent visitors. 18:56:36 ehird, well, that depends on your page size basically. You probably want to send it compressed 18:56:45 ehird: its actually not that i need a watch, see 18:56:56 Compression is good but there are lots of other things too 18:57:12 my grandmother is insisting on getting me a christmas gift, despite me adamant protests 18:57:28 "despite me adamant protests". Yooth slang! 18:57:31 ("me" for "my") 18:57:35 what augur needs is a watchmaker *ducks* 18:57:44 Some cognitive dissonance as soon as you hit "adamant" 18:57:50 * augur sings 18:57:52 augur: Well make it something useful then 18:57:52 watchmaker watchmaker make meeee a watch 18:57:54 ehird, can Cherokee do "compress and cache" on the fly? Like for *.html, if there is a compressed variant of the file in the cache directory, use it, otherwise compress it and cache it. Oh and re-compress and cache if the html page has been updated. 18:57:59 also, its not actually youth slang 18:58:06 AnMaster: I don't know. 18:58:08 well, for south in the south it might be 18:58:08 I don't know these things. 18:58:12 but 18:58:16 You constantly ask people if things can do things 18:58:18 also, i dont NEED anything, ehird! :| 18:58:19 just because they mentioned the first thing 18:58:23 That's not how knowledge works 18:58:24 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:58:24 stop it 18:58:47 ehird, huh. Sorry. But Imight just add that lighttpd has that feature. Pretty nice. 18:58:50 everybody needs love 18:58:55 I imagine most httpds have it. 18:58:55 still shouldn't be hard to make something similar 18:59:06 Here's an example of a page that loads really quickly: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Front%20Page 18:59:10 ehird, indeed. but this nhttpd looks a bit limited? 18:59:16 (Adjust for distance from the server, of course) 18:59:20 Important things it does: 18:59:32 Only one HTTP request; no or anything 18:59:34 ehird, quite fast yes. Probably not a lot to fetch. Something like html page plus one css? 18:59:36 ah 18:59:39 for cSS 18:59:40 *CSS 18:59:42 and the like 18:59:50 plus very minimalist markup (apart from whitespace) 18:59:53 and I assume gzip compression 18:59:58 plus, a minimalist webserver (Factor's) 19:00:00 and I assume caching 19:00:07 No gzip 19:00:10 minimalist! 19:00:10 :D 19:00:12 I'll probably use a for CSS because I'm lazy, but eh 19:00:17 Deewiant: Damn fast for no gzip 19:00:22 Maybe gzip processing time outweighed it 19:00:26 ehird, there is an advantage of not embedding the css in the page though. And that is if the person looks at more than one of your site's pages. 19:00:34 AnMaster: nhttpd isn't limited, it's just minimalist 19:00:54 lighttpd may look minimalist coming from apache... but that's a seriously skewed comparison 19:01:12 ehird, with separate css file that will be cached. You could also send some cache control headers to not make the browser recheck if the cached copy is up-to-date iirc 19:01:12 nginx is more minimalist than lighttpd by quite an amount and just about as featureful 19:01:18 (and it doesn't leak memory, and it scales better) 19:01:21 (until some time later) 19:01:22 but it still has a lot of needless features 19:01:34 AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though 19:01:41 It's counterintuitive, but requests seem to be very expensive 19:01:42 ehird, I never ran into the memory leak issue 19:01:53 Lighttpd leaks memory like a sieve in many common configurations. 19:02:07 Maybe you haven't run into it but it casts doubt on its engineering. 19:02:29 ehird, indeed it does. Open bug reports? 19:02:43 These issues are very well known, I am certain bug reports exist 19:02:59 They've existed for years, so most people who've heard about them or especially run into them have just abandoned lighttpd 19:03:02 AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though <-- maybe. dropping the whitespace would be a good idea however. 19:03:18 It's because of the templating language, I think 19:03:18 Like 19:03:19
    19:03:21 <% 19:03:23 code blah 19:03:23 %> 19:03:24
19:03:28 and for gzip, well you could make it serve already gziped pages? 19:03:32 You've got the \n and spaces before the <% 19:03:37 ehird, oh you don't plan to pre-generate from static pages? 19:03:40 So that gets added to the output 19:03:47 AnMaster: i'm talking about concatenative.org 19:03:47 to static* 19:03:49 which isn't mine 19:03:52 and it's a dynamic site 19:03:56 so already gzipping isn't ppractical 19:03:58 *practical 19:04:00 ah right 19:04:04 But no, I'm not going to use static pages 19:04:08 oh? 19:04:19 Too much fuss in coding, dynamic pages are simpler to write and let you do fancier stuff 19:04:29 You can do fancier stuff by doing a hybrid static+dynamic system... but dear god no. That's just asking for pain. 19:04:30 anyway you can cache pre-rendered dynamic versions 19:04:33 iirc wikipedia does this 19:04:35 No point. 19:04:44 Fast enough? Then don't add complexity. 19:04:53 Especially dealing with cache invalidation... *shudder* 19:06:20 ehird, only needed on update of page or update of the navigation stuff. And if you only cache the page content (and not the navigation stuff) then it is trivial. 19:07:08 or you could cache them separately like: shared pre-content, page content, shared post-content 19:07:14 This is true if you have simple static content. 19:07:20 But dynamic stuff? 19:07:33 ehird, true. But what exactly do you plan to have on the page? 19:07:36 If you think cache invalidation for dynamic web content is easy... shut up until you actually have to deal with it. 19:07:42 AnMaster: Anything. Extensible, remember>? 19:07:44 *remember? 19:08:05 ehird, hm. Isn't this second system syndrome done already for the first system? 19:08:12 lol, no. 19:08:20 It's extensible in the same way a web framework is. 19:08:23 It's a toolchest. 19:08:50 It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it. 19:09:20 http://werc.cat-v.org/ does this already although the system has some design differences to mine. It's also written in rc. Do you think this extensibility and power necessitates bloat? 19:09:25 ehird, takes time to learn one. Which is why there are so many. It is often easier to make your own than try to learn one someone else wrote 19:09:27 Because werc's core is 150 lines of rc shell. 19:09:49 AnMaster: Irrelevant, almost all the existing frameworks are both bloated, or don't do things they should. 19:10:12 The dichotomy of web framework vs "website hierarchy manager thingybob" is false; the very fact that it's hard to name the second one shows this — it's an integral part. 19:10:34 what the hell would a "website hierarchy manager thingybob" thing be? 19:10:35 But seriously, using werc as an example again, it's basically CGI + some functions + some variables. You don't even have to write the apps in rc. 19:10:46 as in, example of such 19:10:48 AnMaster: I explained before, try keeping a backlog in your mind because you're discarding every line by the next one. 19:11:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:11:10 ehird, do you mean like werc? or does that fit in the former? 19:11:22 [19:08] ehird: It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it. 19:11:34 That's (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework). 19:11:35 so the former then 19:11:42 No, werc is a (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework). 19:11:57 ehird, oh so the latter isn't a subset of the former? 19:12:00 right 19:12:05 There aren't really any standalone website hierarchy manager thingybobs. Some CMSs are similar, but they're really shit.. 19:12:07 *shit. 19:12:18 The two things naturally belong together, and having them be the same thing makes both simpler. 19:12:35 ehird, anyway you plan to do cgi? *shudder* 19:12:53 If you complain about CGI you must complain about FastCGI, which is just CGI with a server layer and some extra crazy crap. 19:13:11 ehird, depends on the reason for complaining about cgi. 19:13:14 there are two 19:13:23 Go on, I'm up for rebutting. 19:13:25 one is performance. FastCGI is somewhat better when it comes to that. 19:13:42 the second is that it is rather ugly to code in, when it comes to this FastCGI is definitely even worse 19:13:43 Irrelevant. The overhead Apache and other shit servers add far outweighs a simple server with CGI. 19:13:53 ehird, I didn't say apache 19:13:58 It is quite ugly to code in directly, which is the whole reason I'm writing my thingy. 19:14:00 AnMaster: Even lighttpd. 19:14:10 ehird, doesn't ngnix support fastcgi? 19:14:17 iirc 19:14:28 Yes, and no CGI. http://suckless.org/ uses a CGI-wrapping fastcgi to run werc on nginx, heh. 19:14:46 As I said, even nginx has needless features. A FastCGI-like thing is of course needed if you have a very popular website. 19:14:56 ehird, anyway there is a solution. And that is to integrate the dynamic pages more tightly with the web server. Like yaws. 19:15:03 I'd suggest SCGI; it's a very light protocol and no FastCGI-like cruft. 19:15:07 however you would hate yaws 19:15:09 There is no solution needed. 19:15:11 It is in search of a problem. 19:15:23 It found one: "CGI is slow on most web servers". 19:15:28 But the problem there is most web servers... 19:15:30 ehird, SCGI is pretty nice yes. 19:15:43 The problem it should try to find is "really popular sites fail with CGI even on minimalist web servers". 19:15:58 But that's niche, and solutions searching for problems seem to try and find the most general one they can. 19:16:19 ehird, you'll say google would use CGI next :P 19:16:32 Google isn't really popular? 19:16:33 oh wait 19:16:36 they are that niche 19:16:37 right 19:16:48 Part of it, at least. 19:16:50 that and two other people 19:16:57 (or something like that) 19:18:12 ehird, well I can think of some more: twitter, youtube (except google bought them some time ago), possibly sites like last.fm and such. Not sure about slashdot (from what I remember they use something horrible java based crap) 19:18:18 s/something/some/ 19:18:29 Slashdot is horrific, horrific Perl code that requires root and shits all over your system. 19:18:30 (Slashcode) 19:18:34 oh perl it was 19:18:40 was it sf.net that used java? 19:20:08 Yes. 19:20:29 right. 19:20:39 ehird, anyway probably sites like reddit too? 19:20:43 would be in that niche 19:20:48 Yep. 19:20:50 * ehird gives an example http response from his httpd if he'd write one to see how anmaster reacts 19:20:50 HTTP/1.1 200 19:20:50 content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 19:20:51 19:20:51 ...content... 19:21:22 Compare with w3.org, one of the *lighter* sites header-wise... http://pastie.org/689155.txt?key=v492i5n9ybfvshobv4iwa 19:21:24 ehird, pretty sure there should be one or two more headers there. Anyway what about virtual hosts? 19:21:38 Especially providing the "human-readable" thing like 19:21:43 HTTP/1.1 403 Permission Denied 19:21:45 ehird, don't you need "Content-Length: 29707"? 19:21:46 is pointless 19:21:49 HTTP/1.1 403 19:21:51 works just the same 19:21:58 AnMaster: Nope 19:22:03 That's just for static files 19:22:06 to give their length 19:22:09 I'd probably include it though 19:22:14 ehird, that would require people to check. Unless you provide an error page as well 19:22:26 Um, people don't see the http headers. 19:22:32 And anyone who does know what the code means. 19:22:35 *knows 19:22:37 ehird, oh and wget -c will fail with your web server 19:22:47 HTTP/1.1 200 19:22:47 content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 19:22:48 content-length: 6345 19:22:49 then 19:22:49 to resume downloads that broke down in the middle 19:22:51 because 19:22:55 Accept-Ranges: bytes 19:22:55 AnMaster: No it won't. 19:22:56 is missing 19:23:01 ehird, pretty sure it will 19:23:05 if you can't resume from the middle 19:23:16 -c will try and resume in the request, and the server will comply. 19:23:18 Presumably. 19:23:29 Unless it makes a dummy request to see if it's supported before trying, which is retarded. 19:23:33 If it does, then, fine: 19:23:43 ehird, well okay, I guess you could accept it without telling anyone you did 19:23:51 HTTP/1.1 200 19:23:52 content-type: xxx/warez-porn 19:23:52 content-length: 6345 19:23:52 accept-ranges: bytes 19:24:08 Maybe an etag: header for caching. 19:24:10 ehird, I was more thinking this would be useful for install iso's for your distro 19:24:27 ehird, no server tag to tell what server? 19:24:29 The main thing is that pointless headers like Server: need to go, the pointless capitalisation needs to go, and the pointless response code names need to go 19:24:30 okay 19:24:41 No reason to lengthen every request with trivia 19:24:43 ehird, is the standard case insensitive? 19:24:46 Sites that want you to know will tell you anyway 19:24:47 Yes 19:25:02 ehird, what do you have against the capitalisation though 19:25:08 Pointless 19:25:09 it doesn't matter either way in load 19:25:20 We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward 19:25:22 wouldn't surprise me if it broke some clients 19:25:26 And headers are just an associative array 19:25:27 AnMaster: It doesn't. 19:25:35 And besides, it means that it's simpler to collapse duplicate headers. 19:25:37 We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward <-- we do? Well depends on language 19:25:42 You don't need to handle capitalisation, just lowercase everything 19:25:48 AnMaster: I do, at least. 19:26:06 ehird, some languages have foo = atom Foo = variable or similar 19:26:09 erlang for example 19:26:11 Sure. 19:26:13 Whatever. 19:26:22 Anyway, I guess I have to write this server now. 19:26:23 ehird, but in C I would use lower_case_with_underscore 19:26:30 I bet I can beat most other server's performance. 19:26:34 With less code, too. 19:26:39 Like, say.... 500 SLOC? 19:26:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:26:48 I need to brb now for about 15 minutes, then I guess I'll start. 19:26:51 ehird, probably for small loads. Not sure with 5000 concurrent clients :P 19:26:52 *guess I'll 19:26:57 AnMaster: Yes with 5,000 concurrent clients. 19:27:02 Even 10k; C10k was a decade ago. 19:27:14 ehird, C10k? 19:27:22 and sure you could make it. But so can other servers 19:33:57 oh that c10k 19:33:59 right 19:39:29 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:39:56 ehird, why not just use that factor thing that you said was so fast? 20:01:05 back 20:01:19 AnMaster: various reasons. the sever itself isn't _that_ fast anyway 20:01:25 also, sure, but most servers don't 20:01:28 because they're shit. 20:02:22 also, sure, but most servers don't <-- don't what? 20:02:38 do C10k 20:03:03 ehird, pretty sure lighttpd does for example. nginx probably does too? 20:03:14 Um ... no. 20:03:26 ehird, no about which one? 20:03:41 Just no. 20:03:46 At least not without some SERIOUS hardware. 20:03:55 -!- fax has joined. 20:03:59 And computers are big, too. You can buy a 1000MHz machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM and an 1000Mbit/sec Ethernet card for $1200 or so. Let's see - at 20000 clients, that's 50KHz, 100Kbytes, and 50Kbits/sec per client. It shouldn't take any more horsepower than that to take four kilobytes from the disk and send them to the network once a second for each of twenty thousand clients 20:04:15 C10k means you can do it on a single-core 1 GHz machine with 2 GiB of RAM and a 1 Gb/s Ethernet card. 20:04:16 ehird, what about cheroke or such? 20:04:25 Cherokee is very ununixy. 20:04:38 ehird, sure. but does it do c10k? 20:05:15 Remember what I said about asking people such things just because they mentioned the name of a thing...? 20:05:21 I don't know. 20:05:37 ehird, you seemed to know about lighttpd and nginx? 20:05:55 I'm almost certain lighttpd and nginx can't do it on such specs. 20:06:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 20:06:12 "(Another book which might be more helpful for those who are *using* rather than *writing* a web server is Building Scalable Web Sites by Cal Henderson.)" 20:06:13 Hey, C10K mentions our own iamcal. 20:06:17 Okay, so not technically our own. 20:06:39 O'Reilly published too. Swanky. 20:08:49 ehird, actually: 20:08:49 Okay, so, basic architecture: epoll(), probably fork(), pass over to handler. Have helper functions for headers and stuff. 20:09:12 "[lighttpd] was originally written [...] as a proof-of-concept of the c10k problem (how to handle 10000 connections in parallel on one server),[1] but now has substantial worldwide popularity [...]" 20:09:14 from wikipedia 20:09:23 That doesn't mean it met it. 20:09:27 ehird, true 20:09:35 ehird, so you are saying it didn't? 20:09:43 It may well have. 20:09:44 http://www.fefe.de/fnord/2.5.50-scalability.png 20:09:55 Linux 2.5.50 (old! but similar to 2.6) scalability of web servers. 20:10:04 By doing C10k I mean doing it gracefully, naturally. 20:10:12 Taking 30 seconds to load a page isn't acceptable. 20:10:55 If that's really usec, that Y axis only goes up to 60 milliseconds, which I guess is still pretty reasonable latency. 20:11:02 Yes. 20:11:06 Excellent scalability from both thttpd and fnord. fnord clearly wins though. 20:11:08 ehird, of course. but taking twice the time as usual could be (if "usual" is tiny). Say 0.2 seconds instead of 0.1 (unreasonable example figures, just an example) 20:11:26 Something like 0.3 ms nearing C10k from fnord. 20:11:29 Very good latency. 20:11:36 ehird, why does the bar for fnord end early there? 20:11:43 well bar almost 20:11:48 "The fnord plot ends at 8000 connections because I couldn't open more connections before fnord kept timing out the old ones" 20:11:52 lulz 20:11:59 ehird, so it doesn't really scale that well 20:12:00 :P 20:12:02 (From the author of fnord; strikingly honest) 20:12:08 Sure it does 20:12:14 It just times out like most servers 20:12:16 ehird, not *past* 8000 20:12:22 You misunderstand the quote 20:12:28 ehird, hm. But thttpd didn't? 20:12:47 Presumably because it doesn't do timeouts. 20:12:51 Or because the timeout was set really high. 20:12:57 could be 20:13:08 It's a hardware limitation. 20:13:18 anyway why is there so little "noise" in the the fnord plot? 20:13:20 Fnord is clearly more scalable on given hardware because the latency increases much more slowly. 20:13:21 compared to the other ones 20:13:22 *the latency 20:13:26 AnMaster: Good engineering.. 20:13:28 *engineering. 20:13:37 "CGI (through pipes, not temp files like Apache)" 20:13:37 APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_< 20:13:39 ehird, does it run in kernel space or user space? 20:13:45 Userspace, of course... 20:13:59 ehird, APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_< <-- I would be surprised if it does any more in that case! 20:14:23 like, it would break if you were producing a large file dynamically for download 20:14:54 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:15:08 "thttpd is the fastest web server known to me." says fnord's author 20:15:18 but fnord clearly scales better 20:15:37 Hmm, fnord fork()s for every request, seems like that's a good architecture 20:15:42 It's unixy, so I should have guessed 20:16:34 ehird, would work on linux due to cheap fork() (mostly due to COW, but also pretty fast in other areas) 20:16:44 BSDs too. 20:16:45 but still, I'm surprised 20:16:54 Threading servers have the same latency of fork() on Linux of course. 20:16:58 More or less. 20:17:08 Latency, I mean overhead 20:17:10 You know what I mean 20:17:24 And event-based? 20:17:28 AAH, THE CODE! 20:17:28 ehird, potentially less on some bsds. m:n threads there. Though iirc freebsd at least switched to 1:1 since then 20:17:32 IT IS NOT MEANT FOR ANY MORTAL! 20:17:36 ehird, oh? 20:17:46 ehird, link to a file from it? 20:17:56 Event-based servers and async IO and all that stuff... with a language not designed for that sort of thing? 20:17:59 (so I can just open it directly in an editor) 20:18:04 Just don't even go there. 20:18:07 ehird, so AIO in C? 20:18:07 AnMaster: No particular server. 20:18:23 AIO and event-based servers may be faster than fork()ing servers... but it's not worth the payoff. 20:18:45 oh I thought you mean fnord code XD 20:19:05 ehird, anyway I have done event based IO in C. Worked on ircds after all. 20:19:29 (that isn't AIO though, just non-blocking) 20:19:38 I'm skeptical of the common acceptance of asynchronous IO as the only way to do an ircd. 20:19:39 (have done AIO elsewhere too) 20:19:43 fork() is really cheap. 20:19:49 ehird, well you need IPC then 20:19:54 or channels won't work 20:20:05 Yeah it's called FIFO files... or a Unix socket 20:20:14 ehird, I think that is the main reason why you want one thread. Because they need to talk to each other a lot. In various directions 20:20:27 AnMaster: Sounds like an excuse for spaghetti code 20:20:28 like lots of channels and /msg out of nowhere 20:20:37 ehird, how so? 20:20:38 "Oh, but I'd have to write so much code that makes explicit the communication!" 20:20:41 That's a good thing. 20:21:35 ehird, anyway, an ircd is supposed to handle thousands of clients per server. Plus routing for lots more (multiple linked servers after all) 20:21:43 And? 20:21:56 ehird, you will need to handle "send to other server" in some other way than a pipe per channel or such. 20:22:02 If a fork()ing webserver can handle 8,000 clients at once in the era of Linux 2.5... 20:22:13 Then a fork()ing ircd can handle many more today. 20:22:23 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:22:26 ehird, webservers doesn't do a lot of IPC. Probably none or close to none 20:22:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:22:41 AnMaster: IPC can be fast, I'm sure. 20:22:46 It'd be ridiculous if it couldn't be. 20:23:45 ehird, sure. Go ahead and write an ircd using pipes. and that supports linking to other servers. and scales to 5000 active clients per server or so. 20:23:59 Maybe I will. 20:24:13 and huge channels. Last I looked #ubuntu had over 1000 people in it. 20:24:26 that was the day karmic was released though 20:24:30 Server-to-server communication would be easy, at least... since you'd already have the infrastructure. 20:24:34 1000 people is peanuts. 20:24:42 #gentoo is generally around 900-950 20:24:44 We have computers with massive power nowadays... and fork() is really cheap. 20:24:54 It tingles my skeptic nerve to assert that this is a challenge. 20:26:25 -!- Slereah has quit. 20:26:29 ehird, oh and really you shouldn't compare to the freenode ircd when it comes to performance. That isn't like comparing to apache. It's like comparing to that "personal web sharing" thing mac os 9 had. Or to that down sized ISS thing for windows 9x 20:26:38 Did I say I'd compare to it? 20:26:47 ehird, just warning you ahead of time 20:26:48 1100ish right now 20:26:56 coppro, in #ubuntu? 20:26:59 Also, hey, OS X has Personal Web Sharing too. It's Apache :P 20:26:59 yeah 20:27:09 ehird, it wasn't apache in OS 9 20:27:13 I'm joking 20:27:17 Holy shit, Synchronet is still developed 20:27:22 Synchronet? 20:27:37 huh seems to be a BBS? 20:27:41 Weird old BBS software 20:27:54 hrm.. alis says 1708 20:27:55 Nowadays runs on Windows with lots of Javascript for some reason 20:27:57 ehird, why did you even check on that 20:28:07 but I only saw 1100 when I went in 20:28:12 AnMaster: Its ircd was mentioned in the Wikipedia list of ircds 20:28:15 coppro, how strange 20:28:23 coppro, maybe alis caches? 20:28:25 coppro: they're invisible 20:28:27 LITERALLY 20:28:29 yeah, I guess 20:28:35 so it is only updated every n