< 1260059147 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260060063 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260060241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the logs have changed their timezone...
< 1260060432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like they moved to china...
< 1260060448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either that, or perth
< 1260060517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, perth would have daylight saving
< 1260060612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1260060628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia is confusing. as is perth.
< 1260060636 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranges are too
< 1260060646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A referendum held on May 19 2009 concluded that daylight saving will not be held in the future."
< 1260060890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wut
< 1260060916 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1260060932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok there _may_ be a few other insignificant countries in that time zone
< 1260061906 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1260062894 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260063470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving"
< 1260065093 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial.
< 1260065357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Remind me why putting things next to each other means multiplication rather than addition or something. <<< it's because of a(b + c) = ab + ac; a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) looks too aggressive!
< 1260065397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, the latter one can't be correct. err...
< 1260065418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, was that with no operator = + ?
< 1260065434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you use + too
< 1260065616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: The thing about theorems is that in general, they're easier to verify than to find in the first place. <<< yes, but that's not what mathematica can do, it can *use* the theorem.
< 1260065659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said?
< 1260065662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's confusing
< 1260065702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion)
< 1260065864 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260065902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there?
< 1260065942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of +-/* works
< 1260066000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh well, all I want is a fun symbolic computation environment that isn't really weird like Mathematica and isn't really archaic like Axiom and the like.
< 1260066000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And Maxima.
< 1260066001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260066005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with maxima?
< 1260066039 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions
< 1260066149 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's confusing
< 1260066167 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it confused someone just the other day
< 1260066186 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there? <<< reversing addition and multiplication
< 1260066233 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that starts looking natural after doing a bit of boolean algebra, it isn't exactly inferior in any way
< 1260066269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ah yeah
< 1260066278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so + means "times"?
< 1260066279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then
< 1260066315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's just distributivity of * over +, a(b + c) = ab + ac
< 1260066338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so you say "(a + b)(a + c)" would be same as normal "ac+ab"?
< 1260066348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you missed one c above
< 1260066360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think
< 1260066389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not
< 1260066416 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if xy = yx, then yes
< 1260066427 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise just ab+ac
< 1260066447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, just that I think it should be "ac" not "a" in the first term in: a + bc = (a + b)(a + c)
< 1260066462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not
< 1260066476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this uncommon notation sure is confusing!
< 1260066523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh wait, you said boolean algebra?
< 1260066587 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab + bc would be (a + b)(b + c) in normal notation = (a + b)(c + b) = ac + ab + bc + b^2, which in reversed notation is (a + c)(a + b)(b + c)(b + b)
< 1260066590 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no, that's not the same
< 1260066598 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's not what i meant
< 1260066626 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you reverse notations, reversed a + bc is normal a(b + c) = ab + ac, which is reversed (a + b)(a + c)
< 1260066638 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in boolean algebra, it's directly a rule
< 1260066645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) which seems.... almost but not quite correct? (^ doesn't work too well there... but can't be bothered to find the unicode codepoint)
< 1260066668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right
< 1260066716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I always had problems remembering that law: if it was ^ or V that went between them
< 1260066719 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use ^ and V, it's less confusing because the symmetry is more visible
< 1260066724 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: both.
< 1260066744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything that is true in boolean algebra is true if you reverse them
< 1260066745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yeah but I mean if: a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) or V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)
< 1260066755 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reverse constant 1's and 0's
< 1260066758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ^
< 1260066791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or /or a /
< 1260066791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1260066812 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright think of it like this
< 1260066838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)"
< 1260066857 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just do the "a and" thing inside the expression instead of doing it to the result
< 1260066871 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get expression of (a and b) and (a and c)
< 1260066872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1260066873 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1260066882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260066894 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that's helpful, i just think of it as outside => inside
< 1260066894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260066900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is and in both cases
< 1260066905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was mixing and and or
< 1260066927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)" <-- is actually: a or (b and c)
< 1260066929 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "a V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)" <<< this here makes no sense
< 1260066953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry
< 1260066979 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ^ (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) ^ (a ^ c) is also a valid rule
< 1260066997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes. But that again isn't the same as discussed here
< 1260067013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was mixing ^ and V
< 1260067077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, this is the distributivity stuff I'm talking about.
< 1260067091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is probably a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) then
< 1260067117 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the point is the expression does not change
< 1260067124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes...
< 1260067125 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was still clear from what i said, but apparently not
< 1260067147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, it is just something I trouble memorizing for tests and such.
< 1260067151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had*
< 1260067171 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. you do know a(b + c) = ab + ac right?
< 1260067198 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's really the exact same rule, it's just in boolean algebra you can put * = and, + = or, or just as well + = and, * = or
< 1260067203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes, that is trivial in normal math. the issue is in boolean algebra and "whatever the English name is for the ^ and V notation"
< 1260067245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260067296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a(b + c) = ab + ac, put ^=*, V=+ and you get a ^ (b V c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)
< 1260067309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay
< 1260067319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, that was most helpful indeed
< 1260067381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, but (a+b)(c+d) doesn't work the same as in "normal" math does it?
< 1260067422 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)(c+d) meaning (a V b) ^ (c V d) or what do you mean?
< 1260067429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about (a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb
< 1260067436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes
< 1260067452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, which would expand to (in normal math):
< 1260067470 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works the same, (a+b)(c+d) = a(c+d) + b(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd
< 1260067476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260067479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1260067516 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT also ab + ac = (a + ac)(b + ac) = (a + a)(a + c)(b + a)(b + c)
< 1260067544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I'm pretty sure rules don't work the same the other way though. not (a V b) = (not a) ^ (not b)
< 1260067550 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again probably easier to see how that works if you use ^ and V, i'm just not used to the notation
< 1260067556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, how would not translate?
< 1260067561 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb <<< is this an axiom?
< 1260067563 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not.
< 1260067582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's -b anyway?
< 1260067590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm?
< 1260067590 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-b is usually an element such that b + (-b) = 0
< 1260067600 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these do not exist in boolean algebra
< 1260067606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well, I meant (a+b)(a-b) == (a^2)-(b^2)
< 1260067618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true in normal math
< 1260067625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to remember rule.
< 1260067630 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's nonsensical in boolean algebra.
< 1260067644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not an axiom of course, just follows as a result from other rules
< 1260067667 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra
< 1260067673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah
< 1260067676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point
< 1260067731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of it like this, all objects are nonnegative, and less than one (not literally, just a mnemonic ofc), so addition always gets you closer to 1, and multiplication gets you away from it, towards 0
< 1260067740 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects = elements in your algebra
< 1260067765 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added?
< 1260067767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, you can't use the (a+b)^2 == a^2+2ab+b^2 rule either I think.
< 1260067819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)^2 = (a+b)(a+b) = a(a+b)+b(a+b) = aa + ab + ba + bb = a + b + ab, because both multiplication and addition are idempotent in BA
< 1260067837 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't know that, ... = aa + bb + ab + ab
< 1260067848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added? <-- well yes, the same rules are at least in part shared with simple set theory
< 1260067867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do union = + and intersection = *
< 1260067907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, and what's even more interesting (and, sadly, what makes finite boolean algebras uninteresting) is that in fact for each finite boolean algebra B, there is a set that's completely isomorphic to B
< 1260067928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu
< 1260067951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does finite/infinite mean in *this* specific context?
< 1260067978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isomorphism just meaning one-to-one correspondence between elements, and multiplication and addition work the exact same way in both systems
< 1260067989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes I know what isomorphism is.
< 1260067994 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same as always :)
< 1260067997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learnt it in graph theory stuff
< 1260068000 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Xeonidas
< 1260068001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite would be like {1, 2, 5}
< 1260068014 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite would be like N
< 1260068020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, as the set of possible values?
< 1260068023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in*
< 1260068042 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formally, infinite <==> there is a proper subset that can be put in bijection with the original set
< 1260068074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh that's an interesting and very useful definition of infinite. You learn something new every day :)
< 1260068111 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically what a boolean algebra is is a set where you have some dudes, and you have these rules called "and", "or" and "not". the axioms just limit what sort of mappings they can form between the elements
< 1260068121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite just means there's a finite amount of dudes
< 1260068138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, usually Mr. True and Miss False? ;P
< 1260068173 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not "not", more like complement
< 1260068185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't really need an actual operator for it
< 1260068185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, but then what about the set of real numbers. Is there such a subset for it?
< 1260068223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe you can form a bijection without starting somewhere.
< 1260068252 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, we could take all numbers of the form bbbbb0,bbbbbb..., and just kinda move the b's before 0 one step to the right
< 1260068299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument?
< 1260068311 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr. true and mr. false would form the simplest nontrivial boolean algebra, but for any n there is a boolean algebra with 2^n dudes
< 1260068323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these are *the only finite boolean algebras*Ã„
< 1260068338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what i meant by "for blah blah there's a set such that blah blah isomorphism"
< 1260068340 0 :Xeonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas
< 1260068342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm, I only worked with the true/false style boolean algebra
< 1260068352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did know there were other types
< 1260068359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just never came in contact with those
< 1260068373 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said you knew sets also form a BA
< 1260068388 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1260068396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, actually what I said was that I knew that the same rules worked.
< 1260068408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say I knew *why* this was
< 1260068420 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260068426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this explains a lot
< 1260068429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more precise, if we have any set S whatsoever, and take the powerset 2^S, then if you define and as intersection and or as union, then a boolean algebra will be formed
< 1260068434 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = S, 0 = {}
< 1260068443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice
< 1260068460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nifty even
< 1260068479 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections
< 1260068497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? hard?
< 1260068507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, "hard to prove those"
< 1260068523 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument? <<< cantor's thing says there is no surjection N -> R, i proved there's a surjection "subset of R" -> R
< 1260068547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh right. But N is a subset of R
< 1260068560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right
< 1260068567 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's not true that for all subsets Z of R, there is a surjection from Z to R
< 1260068570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all subsets might have such a surjection
< 1260068588 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider {}, it's a proper subset of R, but you can't map one of it's 0 elements to each element of R :P
< 1260068595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, would it be possible to construct such a set that for all subsets there is a surjection?
< 1260068611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is a big subset, and infinite one in fact; cantor's argument says it's still not big enough.
< 1260068615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait yeah {}: All subsets of {} form a surjection against {}
< 1260068621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course
< 1260068622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are none
< 1260068629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes the whole thing pointless
< 1260068631 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260068635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1260068650 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that "hard to prove those" thing about
< 1260068659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, about " to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections"
< 1260068666 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say "hard"
< 1260068672 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said "very simple"
< 1260068672 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260068676 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a slight difference
< 1260068684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no, but you are in general way above my level in maths
< 1260068690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260068697 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you meant
< 1260068703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1260068738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what you consider trivial, I likely will consider "not too hard", what you consider "not too hard" I will likely go "huh?" at :P
< 1260068765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from the really trivial trivial bits)
< 1260068783 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's see, a(b + c) = ab + ac, with sets that's a \cap (b \cup c) = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), well... do you even need a proof for that?
< 1260068808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're taking all elems that belong to either b or c
< 1260068808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1260068815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right latex. hm \cap is ^ and \cup = V right?
< 1260068819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we then remove all elems that belong to a
< 1260068831 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it doesn't matter whether we remove all elems of a before or after the union
< 1260068839 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just draw like a venn diagram
< 1260068859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasdo you even need a proof for that? <-- a venn diagram works just fine iirc.
< 1260068891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, argh you said that too a few lines below :P
< 1260068900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah I don't need a proof for that one
< 1260068918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for boolean algebra you can prove it with a truth table
< 1260069012 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, if you want proof: a \cap (b \cup c) = {x | (x \in a) \and ((x \in b) \or (x \in c))} = {x | ((x \in a) \and (x \in b)) \or ((x \in a) \and (x \in c))} = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), basically just open the definitions, and you're done
< 1260069028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fires up tex to render that
< 1260069057 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, for the boolean algebra with 2 elements you could write down a truth table
< 1260069061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, \and?
< 1260069068 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly
< 1260069087 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a mistake, but if there's an and, should be \and prolly
< 1260069102 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in fact, for any finite boolean algebra, you can write a "truth table"
< 1260069110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, just lyx didn't like it. Not sure if it is there actually
< 1260069122 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean obviously you can just check the rules work if you have a finite amount of elements
< 1260069142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole bit \and((x\in b)\or(x\in c))}={x|((x\in a)\and(x\in b))\or((x\in a)\and(x\in c))}=(a\cap b)\cup(a\cap c) doesn't render. Just silently cut off
< 1260069181 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the usual boolean algebra 0, 1 is just the powerset of a set with one element, {a}, you just have one dude
< 1260069208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, makes sense
< 1260069233 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a unique boolean algebra on the power set {{}, {a}}, then the "1" of that algebra is {a}, and {} is 0
< 1260069248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm from this follows that there is a boolean algebra with just {} ?
< 1260069266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a degenerate case indeed
< 1260069272 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could say it's the trivial boolean algebra
< 1260069280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260069288 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no in fact i think there's the rule 0 != 1
< 1260069289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260069306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh there has to be at least one element?
< 1260069360 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0
< 1260069370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the empty boolean algebra i suppose would be even more trivial
< 1260069377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having neither, set of dudes = {}
< 1260069390 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure at least that is illegal
< 1260069404 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't have a set of axioms here, and this is really not that important :P
< 1260069428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260069572 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay there's a rule like "there has to be an element 1 with properties X"
< 1260069588 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the properties say it's the biggest object)
< 1260069589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1260069593 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the algebra is empty
< 1260069617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0 <-- that one is still valid?
< 1260069624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's false. because there's no element, there isn't an element 1, even if the properties X would be trivially true because there are no objects
< 1260069636 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1260069646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but quite a useless one
< 1260069688 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but i find thinking about the degenerate cases usually makes math feel more concrete, sorta like programming vs. using programs
< 1260069714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, using programs being more concrete?
< 1260069738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, btw that thing above rendered as something that actually shows up as you expected it would be: $a\cap\left(b\cup c\right)=\left\{ x|\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(\left(x\in b\right)OR\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left\{ x|\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in b\right)\right)OR\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left(a\cap b\right)\cup\left(a\cap c\right)$
< 1260069745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there seems to be no \and or \or
< 1260069764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, most importantly you forgot to escape the {}
< 1260069803 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260069815 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like how programming makes you understand why programs don't always do what you want, maybe :)
< 1260069822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ah
< 1260069891 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe) math is similar, the details and degenerates aren't actually that useful, but so aren't unfinished programs
< 1260069902 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno, feeling poetic maybe
< 1260069904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1260069906 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should do stuff now
< 1260069913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, yeah very deep and poetic
< 1260070001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway has been fun discussing these important elementary school matters with you :P
< 1260070019 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first attempt ->
< 1260070019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm btw is there a surjection between R and C?
< 1260070044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260070048 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could take like
< 1260070062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm?
< 1260070071 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...)
< 1260070079 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real, imag)
< 1260070082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good idea
< 1260070100 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that works, there are two representations for each real so there might be complications
< 1260070119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, and there is the polar form
< 1260070120 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is
< 1260070121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb myself
< 1260070175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1260070185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what you mean is?
< 1260070200 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to prove if we have some (bbbb.bbb..., aaaa.aaaa...), then there's a real that maps to it, but the problem is when we're finding what to map bababa.babab.... to, we might actually use another representation for that real, say bababa.ccccc..., and actually map it to (bbb.ccc...., aaa.cccc)
< 1260070203 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*...
< 1260070208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you follow this notation?
< 1260070213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean that 1+2i and 12+0i?
< 1260070230 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again the tuples are complex numbers (real, imag)
< 1260070231 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260070237 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that question mean?
< 1260070248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, forget it, was thinking backwards
< 1260070256 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say in binary, 0.1111... = 1.0000...
< 1260070263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260070296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what "we map bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...)" actually says is, given some real, we take a representation of it (one of the two), and map it to some complex number
< 1260070310 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the complex number is different depending on the representation of the real we chose
< 1260070314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right
< 1260070315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then this is not even well-defined
< 1260070336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because using the two different representations, we could find two different complex numbers to which the function maps the real
< 1260070343 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and functions don't do that.
< 1260070349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, thus providing that C is larger than R?
< 1260070357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean "proving"
< 1260070363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, err yeah
< 1260070364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1260070368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy typo
< 1260070396 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, this doesn't prove that. kinda like saying "the ill-defined function f(x) = 0 and 1 isn't a surjection between R and C, therefore C is bigger than R" doesn't prove shit
< 1260070423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260070450 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there definitely *is* a surjection from R to C, and in fact i could just fix the error
< 1260070464 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we take some base say base 1010010
< 1260070467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh?
< 1260070503 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, numbers that have 293 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 0 as their ith digit, and numbers that have 8544 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 1 as their ith digit
< 1260070510 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else can be chosen arbitrarily
< 1260070532 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, for each complex number, we can construct a real number that has 293's and 8544's in the proper places
< 1260070558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why 293 and 8544?
< 1260070571 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because both 293 and 8544 are in the middle of the interval [0, 1010010), there won't be any complications
< 1260070584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1260070597 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers that only contain stuff from the "middle of the base", have unique representations, afaik
< 1260070605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha
< 1260070611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those were completely arbitrary, those numbers
< 1260070629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1260070638 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's a surjection, but not a bijection, as you can probably see if you followed that
< 1260070662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.... right
< 1260070678 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just needed the function's values to be nice for numbers whose base 1010010 representation only contains 293's and 8544's
< 1260070685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about constructing a bijection then?
< 1260070785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a relevant theorem i can't find
< 1260070799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260070822 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection
< 1260070829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly there's a surjection from C to R
< 1260070835 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see it?)
< 1260070836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes
< 1260070838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(:P)
< 1260070856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just set the imaginary part to 0
< 1260070907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. well, technically R is a completely separate field, it doesn't even have imaginary parts. that's just how R is embedded into C.
< 1260070920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway the function that takes the real part
< 1260070921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right
< 1260070940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, not the one that returns the real part?
< 1260070950 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes returns
< 1260070955 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean takes from the number, and returns :P
< 1260070958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1260070961 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway second attempt coming soon.
< 1260070963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not takes (as argument)
< 1260070972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well cya. I shouldn't hold you up longer
< 1260070978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes bad terminology
< 1260070981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has been very interesting :)
< 1260070996 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya! ->
< 1260071129 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260073822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it.
< 1260076144 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-166.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260078953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just invented a feather-like language I think
< 1260078996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least inspired by featuer
< 1260078998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather*
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< 1260087168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:40:22 well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection
< 1260087171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:40:29 clearly there's a surjection from C to R
< 1260087186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is an injection there is obviously a surjection the other way
< 1260087233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse is also true but probably requires the axiom of choice
< 1260087251 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no! that's a shame because axiom of choice is true
< 1260087255 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ack
< 1260087261 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* I ruined that joke
< 1260087277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's independent. you can choose whether you include it.
< 1260087285 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ??
< 1260087290 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the axioms are independent
< 1260087333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. however it requires proof, which gÃ¶del and cohen provided for the axiom of choice at least (and the continuum hypothesis)
< 1260087337 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people so often point out when they use choice.. nobody says, ..but that requires axiom of powerset
< 1260087370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because choice is the only one which doesn't give you a unique thing you construct
< 1260087701 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole logic set theory is based on has that property
< 1260087754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm well yeah choosing an element from a general set doesn't really give a unique thing either
< 1260087776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra
< 1260087812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use xor instead of union/or though
< 1260087825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's just a Z_2 module
< 1260087836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/module/vector space/
< 1260087860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait
< 1260087870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is not a vector space operation
< 1260087906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really mean, it's then a ring (boolean ring)
< 1260087908 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"
< 1260087954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course addition = subtraction then
< 1260088301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc
< 1260089155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed. hours ago. remind me
< 1260089179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyberspace. orcs.
< 1260089193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes indeed
< 1260089210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, I agree fully with the annotation
< 1260089288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh and D&D was rather funny today
< 1260089382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found it a bit grating, actually, pete being _too_ exaggerated
< 1260089409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well, i guess that's what you need to get jim to actually start noticing...
< 1260089449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot.
< 1260089469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _
< 1260089475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would not buy again.
< 1260089497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying
< 1260089509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for
< 1260089515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whoosh*
< 1260089537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right?
< 1260089576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm xkcd used it (that bobcat thing), but i thought it was a meme...
< 1260089602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for most simple purposes I have to say maxima with the wxmaxima frontend is as good and sometimes better. Definitely less buggy for a start.
< 1260089617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right. I'm no expert on memes
< 1260089634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the joke was really about the fact you didn't actually buy it, as far as i have discerned
< 1260089638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, bobcat? wasn't it the send cat through ebay?
< 1260089654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, gift!
< 1260089669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you _say_ so
< 1260089680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
< 1260089688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/325/
< 1260089703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260089712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, remembered it as "cat"
< 1260089719 0 :lifthrasiir!i=daXp7mox@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260089727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html says "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language."
< 1260089733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call that "a lie"
< 1260089744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the wording is rather vague
< 1260089751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you haven't noticed that about wolfram before? it's like he's famous for it
< 1260089766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes I noticed it, but I hadn't realised the scope of it
< 1260089805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh and I think he claimed mathematica was fast somewhere in the docs. and "highly optimising" or something
< 1260089859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, taking a minute or so to compute NextPrime[800!] doesn't seem too bad. Probably not a representative example considering what I heard from ais and such
< 1260089907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well
< 1260089921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that seems quite plausible
< 1260089928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I assume you do have a copy?
< 1260090009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1260090063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck i'm not sure i've ever tried it, the institute went with maple...
< 1260090112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh btw the serious issues with workarounds: 1) Pressing AltGr inserts a space, work around by editing internal file, fix found in google groups archive. 2) Maxima was hogging CPU and waking up the laptop cpu around 14000 times per second (!), work around by replacing some library files with updated versions from wolfram: reduced to around 7000 times per second, chmod the java link stuff to be
< 1260090112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-accessible got rid of the issue completely but as a side effect some features of the internal help system no longer works
< 1260090159 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260090174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima?
< 1260090184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about it?
< 1260090189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260090191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo
< 1260090195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meant mathematica
< 1260090199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so
< 1260090214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start
< 1260090221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\.//
< 1260090270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's open source version of old macsyma, isn't it
< 1260090297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the vax/vms system they had when i joined university had macsyma
< 1260090389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html
< 1260090396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah but development hasn't been standing still
< 1260090412 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was really pointing out the open source part
< 1260090421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which _should_ mean less bugs
< 1260090443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1260090539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html <-- heh
< 1260090615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that site uses almost unreadably small text however
< 1260090633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my browser
< 1260090641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IE 7)
< 1260090648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er 8
< 1260090783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These Android fonts (available as a package directly) have a lot nicer monospace font; I get a pretty readable 99x19 term on the 3.5" screen.
< 1260090785 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can set a minimum text size in many rowsers
< 1260090802 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow
< 1260090848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it, mac fonts (legally) on a non-mac
< 1260090864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least that's what "resize" said the size is, haven't counted the chars.
< 1260090912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of rows matches, probably columns too.
< 1260090964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99x23 in the no-title-bar "fullscreen" mode.
< 1260090968 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type a long line in vim?
< 1260091070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, s/vim/emacs/
< 1260091111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it counts correctly; used cat to avoid the editor war.
< 1260091325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now you're at war with PETA instead!
< 1260091327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :P
< 1260091334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, PETA?
< 1260091346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define PETA
< 1260091351 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Peta (PeTa, Peta) is a fictional character in the manga and anime series MÄR. He is a member of the Chess Pieces, the series main antagonists ... \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_(MÄR) \ * In physics and mathematics, peta- (symbol: P) is a prefix in the SI (system of units) denoting 1015, or 1,000,000,000,000,000. For
< 1260091357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no
< 1260091362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google PETA
< 1260091363 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PETA's animal rights campaigns include ending fur and leather use meat and dairy consumption fishing hunting trapping factory farming circuses bull fighting ... \ www.peta.org/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
< 1260091381 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but cat doesn't have a column count function!
< 1260091449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^
< 1260091450 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output!
< 1260091474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Wrote 30 chars, copy-pasted twice, then counted the remaining empty spots.
< 1260091670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for some bus-catching.
< 1260091907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you didn't answer, how did you do in mathemalympics
< 1260091971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did answer. fairly mediocre
< 1260091982 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you did
< 1260091983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in below the 50% medal cutoff
< 1260091990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathemalympics?
< 1260092000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when was that?
< 1260092008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :international math olympiad
< 1260092030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1988 and 1989
< 1260092034 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh but international?
< 1260092066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes
< 1260092095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the national competition i got 3rd and 2nd place
< 1260092102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Results 1 - 1 of 1 for mathemalympics. (0.08 seconds)
< 1260092102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1260092104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wow
< 1260092112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a special term for that
< 1260092115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one hit on google
< 1260092124 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool
< 1260092128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects spelling is wrong
< 1260092140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh oklofok made it up afaik
< 1260092145 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's "googlewhack", but that's for 2 words together
< 1260092151 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i'd given a shit in the math competitions :|
< 1260092153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, ah right
< 1260092165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so what was the real name for it?
< 1260092187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :international math(ematics) olympiad
< 1260092197 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've probably told you my fun math competition stories?
< 1260092224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ical
< 1260092264 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internautical
< 1260092441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be one where we are all put in a boat at sea, and have to solve math problems to escape
< 1260092466 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260092468 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should do that!
< 1260092498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the other way around, not to get thrown out
< 1260092513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear that's the popular way with these reality shows
< 1260092652 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklofok
< 1260092660 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when can i come live with you in finland?
< 1260092705 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rather liked the maths olympiad when he did it.
< 1260092720 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got to go to the summer school.
< 1260092783 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: well wasn't i advertising an empty room just the other day... :D
< 1260092818 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how're the immigration laws?
< 1260092920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea really. significantly less strict than yours, i'd wager.
< 1260093019 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about work, would i be able to manage without speaking whatever it is the natives speak?
< 1260093051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much everyone speaks english here
< 1260093109 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tbh i'm not sure you could live here, i mean i wouldn't mind, but my gf might (i suppose i could ask her though)
< 1260093124 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you wouldn't speak english unless there was some reason to right?
< 1260093144 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean do i speak english with finns? no, usually not
< 1260093186 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natives speak finnish
< 1260093562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those pesky natives
< 1260093688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to tell google that "this word must appear in this page", because most hits I get is when selecting cached shows that "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page:"
< 1260093703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all results are fairly irrelevant
< 1260093714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been annoyed by that too
< 1260093732 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think so, it doesn't work by words on the one page
< 1260093747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm did prepending + help i don't quite recall if that worked
< 1260093751 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there's no reason that couldn't be done as post processing so forget that
< 1260093757 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah sometimes i wish google was a search engine
< 1260093775 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't just try to read my mind
< 1260093780 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and give me what i want
< 1260093802 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok who said anything about mind reading
< 1260093810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, prepending + seems to reduce the issue but not solve it completely
< 1260093813 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did!
< 1260093873 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok literal interpretation of that question misses the intended meaning
< 1260093875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a google help page somewhere, i think i've seen links to it
< 1260093907 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok I guess I was assuming you knew a bit about how google ranked pages
< 1260093913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why google doesn't put it on their front page is beyond me
< 1260093982 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes
< 1260094018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait there it is
< 1260094079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broken unicode in the norwegian version, not encouraging
< 1260094133 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: all i need to know is they don't look for pages containing exactly what i write in the box.
< 1260094163 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they do something close to that
< 1260094206 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok dunno, what you were saying seemed kinda smug and sarcastic to me
< 1260094216 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260094218 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1260094222 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it was
< 1260094245 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google is big, obviously i'm allowed to bash them
< 1260094266 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're funny
< 1260094282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries the english version in the hope it is more up to date
< 1260094387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced
< 1260094404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's google in general, sure there are still parts that aren't evil
< 1260094405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now
< 1260094582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: a good example of what i mean by mind reading is they correct my typos, 99% of the time they just give me something i didn't want, because what i wanted was less popular than something that sounds similar.
< 1260094607 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sucks
< 1260094622 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or s/99%/50%/, i haven't made statistics, just become annoyed ;)
< 1260094649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's what adding + is supposed to disable, anyway
< 1260094692 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your superior arguments.
< 1260094724 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if i have the time to press + everytime i search for something :d
< 1260094740 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it in greasemonkey!
< 1260094765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, + doesn't disable it in my experience always
< 1260094777 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, take that!
< 1260094874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to disable synonyms, it says
< 1260094882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says nothing about links
< 1260095052 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-127.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260095182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i cannot find any way to turn off links-only hits either
< 1260095225 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamnit
< 1260095230 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not nazi zombies
< 1260095304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course nazi zombies
< 1260095381 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260095390 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260095864 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: why do you search for so many things containing typos?
< 1260095933 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260095959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not typos, they are just oppressed words
< 1260095962 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260096236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix_madvise
< 1260096237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you mean: posix_fadvise
< 1260096238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example
< 1260096242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both exist btw
< 1260096336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ,aybe i just never typo accidentally, so all the corrections are always wong in my case?
< 1260096554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION binks.
< 1260096583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1260096660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh ffs. I think wolfram just tried to claim mathematica somehow is the best programming language at handling name spaces
< 1260096671 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And isn't it?
< 1260096680 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard people claim mathematica is teh best language
< 1260096705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i seem to detect some doubt about oklofok's perfection, there. repent, sinner!
< 1260096709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, from looking at the docs it seems to provide a fairly bulky way to handle name spaces
< 1260096715 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bulky?
< 1260096721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, correct
< 1260096727 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning what ??????
< 1260096764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it seems more complex and messy than it needs to be. For no gain. And that even C++
< 1260096773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++'s* namespaces seems better
< 1260096787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let it be known that I'm no C++ lover at all
< 1260096804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I positively detest C++
< 1260096821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least you aren't negative about it
< 1260096827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har
< 1260096885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan.
< 1260096968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION places eliezer yudkowsky in a black box, tells everyone it is an evil AI and not to let it out under any circumstances
< 1260097010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION talks to the black box for two hours.
< 1260097018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English
< 1260097019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm convinced that I should open this box.
< 1260097021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does.
< 1260097036 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1260097043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was afraid of that
< 1260097047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "uorygl" is a Lojban spelling of an English word. "sic" is an English word.
< 1260097059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you mean as in [sic] ?
< 1260097059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o
< 1260097062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right
< 1260097072 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a verb, also spelled "sick".
< 1260097073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sic means to tell to attack
< 1260097073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here i was trying to check if it was rot-N
< 1260097091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarr i didn't realize it was ihope either
< 1260097097 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before now
< 1260097105 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.229.201 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260097112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I did that in a few seconds and found it unlikely
< 1260097121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whois would've told that tho, it seems
< 1260097126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that i realized long ago
< 1260097127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I also tried reverse
< 1260097129 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you know
< 1260097155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hi there
< 1260097162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how so? There is no ihope in it
< 1260097164 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Eliezer" is a Biblical name meaning "God is help". As for "Yudkowsky", all I can tell is that it's an English proper noun meaning "Eliezer Yudkowsky".
< 1260097175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:53 ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial.
< 1260097175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant how reasonable output will it give.
< 1260097175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everyone knows warrie is ihope
< 1260097183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking about Yudkowsky's name?
< 1260097189 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: kind of.
< 1260097193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, sounds familiar
< 1260097205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: < AnMaster> * uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English
< 1260097205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, logs! :P
< 1260097205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1260097207 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: great output.
< 1260097226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: but you can't get smaller and smaller text w/ ascii
< 1260097240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: -owsky is a pretty common slavic name suffix afaik
< 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:19 oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said?
< 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:22 it's confusing
< 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does mine.
< 1260097270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:15:02 oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion)
< 1260097270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho ho, the primitive oklofok knows not the customs of IRC!
< 1260097273 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, that's why you need to know the sizes of bounding boxes of subexpressions
< 1260097283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's not actually the context I meant
< 1260097293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant like in power towerzzz
< 1260097315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird I'm forced to give you an award...
< 1260097331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:20:39 ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions
< 1260097331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contexxzt?
< 1260097339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260097345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about functions not being representable
< 1260097354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense
< 1260097363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the free variable
< 1260097364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things
< 1260097365 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arglist + expression is not enough to give you all functions
< 1260097369 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really pretty obvious
< 1260097388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expression can be arbitrarily big tho...
< 1260097395 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it must be finite
< 1260097399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right
< 1260097401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1260097405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well recursion
< 1260097406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course
< 1260097417 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about recursion
< 1260097430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we including impossible functions here
< 1260097431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursion doesn't change the fact that expressions are finite.
< 1260097435 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1260097438 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an "impossible" function?
< 1260097444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An uncomputable one? Definitely.
< 1260097595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a meaningless one? :P
< 1260097704 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically
< 1260097733 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's more functions than you can write down
< 1260097744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually a function can be definable without being computable
< 1260097746 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you fix a countable language)
< 1260097758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ofc
< 1260097780 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe ofc, but that was an answer to your question
< 1260097785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1260097789 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i see
< 1260097807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the world
< 1260097829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see so much more than that
< 1260097834 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like space and stuff
< 1260097901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the nested hilbert-hotel of concepts
< 1260097924 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many computable functions are there?
< 1260097926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(every room contains a hilbert hotel just as big as the main one, containing all the ideas and subhotels of related ideas)
< 1260097929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: infinite
< 1260097936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think
< 1260097938 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(say in infinitary lambda calculus)
< 1260097943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1
< 1260097945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1-1
< 1260097947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1-1+1
< 1260097948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1260097960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue that's two functions
< 1260097979 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, in most definitions of a "computable function", there are aleph_0 of them.
< 1260098003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable function restricted to the physical universe would be interesting
< 1260098010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't know how dense we can pack information for a computer
< 1260098014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1260098026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't know how fast we can compute (to avoid the death of the universe)
< 1260098035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't know when the universe will die either :P
< 1260098037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / /
< 1260098039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about one that "did something useful" (of course you need to define that first)
< 1260098048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does
< 1260098070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, did, since we spent so much time thinking about it that the universe already died.
< 1260098071 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl that's just some definition though, it's not necessarily the truth
< 1260098102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no "truth".
< 1260098110 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just about to say that
< 1260098126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your incorrect philosophy of mathematics may lead you to believe that there is a real "truth" behind computable functions â€” which ONLY means their definition â€” but there is not.
< 1260098145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computable functions mean what consensus defines them as; they are abstract concepts with no underlying truths.
< 1260098183 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heil, mein fÃ¼hrer
< 1260098212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: wrong channel
< 1260098216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks
< 1260098243 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was the one with the nazi zombies
< 1260098261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. this channel still has some brains left.
< 1260098272 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains? where?
< 1260098274 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drools
< 1260098279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1260098285 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc rooms are kind of a sucky place to hunt.
< 1260098304 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1260098308 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260098313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: in math, definitions are the truth.
< 1260098317 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood seems to be the only one even trying to get into physical contact with his prey
< 1260098324 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1260098331 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, not so! Truth in undefiniable
< 1260098336 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is*
< 1260098348 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we know that pi is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter? It's defined that way.
< 1260098351 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean?
< 1260098366 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: you're a zombie, and you want to eat my brain
< 1260098375 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh baby
< 1260098384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are so busted
< 1260098387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A statement is true in a theory if it holds for every model of that theory.
< 1260098390 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it's a theorem of Tarski
< 1260098396 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which theorem?
< 1260098402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: that's just some definitions tarski made up
< 1260098404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: not the truth!
< 1260098430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/true/provable/, iirc
< 1260098442 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true and provable are not synonymous
< 1260098448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo thinking about true is usually pointless esp. since godel means, well, it's kinda inaccessible
< 1260098456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think provable is a formal concept and true isn't, but that's just a hunch
< 1260098460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but i think the tarski theorem is about provability?
< 1260098487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think something is a "logical consequence" or whatever if it holds for every model of the theory.
< 1260098493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh isn't that godel's completeness theorem
< 1260098503 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about godels theorem
< 1260098542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they may be close nevertheless
< 1260098564 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, remind me. Is there a Turing machine that halts in some models of ZFC but not others?
< 1260098592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1260098597 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Yeah, I think there is. Just add "the Turing machine halts" as an axiom.
< 1260098624 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, if it's undecidible whether or not a turing machine halts: It does not halt
< 1260098632 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true.
< 1260098633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1260098637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur momz
< 1260098639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the new topic
< 1260098646 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the axiom "the Turing machine halts" is okay to suffix
< 1260098649 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, for some Turing machines that do not halt, ZFC + "that Turing machine halts" is consistent.
< 1260098679 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a theory is consistent if and only if you can't prove a falsehood from it.
< 1260098683 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think.
< 1260098688 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway all this talk of turing machines just brings us back to cold hearted determinism, there's so much more
< 1260098713 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260098718 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260098761 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear not all this again
< 1260098780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: oh great, let me guess
< 1260098786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free will exists because of quantum effects
< 1260098787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i guess right
< 1260098846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh
< 1260098865 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260098905 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260098918 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal
< 1260098929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha the channel collectively grunts in disgust
< 1260098953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, puzzlet's hop was just that annoying.
< 1260099000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD
< 1260099005 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xxxxxxxxxxD
< 1260099010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:30:22 mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it.
< 1260099010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to insert special characters, I recommend name
< 1260099012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mathematica
< 1260099028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inf, pi etc work
< 1260099040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite pie
< 1260099045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1260099064 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chocolate pie?
< 1260099084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's chocolate _somewhere_, it's infinite after all
< 1260099090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: start of today's logs, people who don't use the axiom of choice upset me :P
< 1260099094 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, no
< 1260099096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, it could be uniform
< 1260099104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a repeated tile
< 1260099107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : to insert special characters, I recommend name
< 1260099111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where is the fun in that
< 1260099114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you forgot about Swedish keyboard
< 1260099115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260099120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I need altgr for [ and {
< 1260099128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dude, remap that shit
< 1260099128 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sets of axioms should be used an equal amount
< 1260099141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway the fix works, *shrug*
< 1260099143 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the inconsistent ones?
< 1260099143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply the axiom of choice to an infinite set of axioms
< 1260099179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:50:49 opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot.
< 1260099180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:09 Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _
< 1260099180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because
< 1260099183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[foo]
< 1260099190 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well if they are hard to prove inconsistent, they can be interesting for a while
< 1260099193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, means?
< 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern matches on the symbol foo
< 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a symbolic language
< 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what are the usability issues?
< 1260099210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah I see
< 1260099225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they were mentioned below
< 1260099226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit
< 1260099234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some page or pages later
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:37 oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:49 it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works in os x without rotating
< 1260099235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:15 would not buy again.
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:52:17 oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right?
< 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it predates the internet i believe
< 1260099243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : works in os x without rotating
< 1260099246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux specific bug
< 1260099249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux of course is a fringe platform for mathematica
< 1260099256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, intel graphics even
< 1260099260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people are on windows or os x, or use maxima or axiom or w/e
< 1260099278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, some intel chipset revisions only, only linux
< 1260099280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah a bit rare
< 1260099288 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is horrible after getting used to mathematica's web interface
< 1260099300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, web interface? You mean W|A?
< 1260099311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely
< 1260099312 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one of thhem
< 1260099313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:54:40 oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
< 1260099313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's probably a malignant narcissist
< 1260099315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them
< 1260099320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he definitely has a gigantic ego
< 1260099325 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica has tons of web interfaces
< 1260099329 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web faces
< 1260099343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about wxmaxima?
< 1260099352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, better than the command line I have to say
< 1260099353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what that is
< 1260099355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice even
< 1260099362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, graphical frontend to maxima
< 1260099373 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i have wxmaxima
< 1260099377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the annoying one
< 1260099379 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1260099393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WxMaxima_0.7.1_screenshot.png ?
< 1260099404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism)
< 1260099405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later versions are more like mathematica note book in style
< 1260099428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, as in, you edit directly in the buffer rather than having an input line at the bottom
< 1260099429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1260099433 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine does ascii rendering for instance
< 1260099438 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's probably newer
< 1260099440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: did you miss the talk about me musing about writing y own maxima/mathematica-alike?
< 1260099448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, wow your has to be really old
< 1260099450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you're using the command-line version, probably
< 1260099454 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably
< 1260099456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, most of it yeah
< 1260099503 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260099509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: features in a nutshell: *good* command-line interface with good ASCII art drawing of expressions, a simple syntax that matches mathematical notation quite closely, and some assorted other stuff
< 1260099516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*writing my
< 1260099545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the ascii art drawing is optional, by default it'll display linear expressions, which is nice
< 1260099571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mathematical notation is ambiguous without context. As in what does a d mean? dx/dy is probably different from ab+dc
< 1260099583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:58:27 ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well
< 1260099583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 claimed it and i parroted based on my experience
< 1260099608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dx/dy is dividing the variables dx and dy. ab+dc is adding ab and dc. for the former use the derivative function
< 1260099615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the latter you mean a b + d c
< 1260099619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (a b)+(d c), not sure
< 1260099623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said close, but also simple
< 1260099625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, dx/dy is probably a differentiation
< 1260099627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and understandable
< 1260099631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it diverts ofc
< 1260099635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no it isn't, not in my syntax
< 1260099636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what you call it in English
< 1260099652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I said "mathematical notation"
< 1260099653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh
< 1260099660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about
< 1260099661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why did you state that to me?
< 1260099666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "that matches mathematical notation quite closely"
< 1260099670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quite closely"
< 1260099673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious keyword.
< 1260099710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about ascii art drawing, do you mean unicode or plain ASCII?
< 1260099748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain ascii, unicode doesn't really help all that much for most of it
< 1260099756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the layout engine will prolly have different backends
< 1260099763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ascii, unicode, html etc
< 1260099781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TeX...)
< 1260099812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the TeX will probably be quite low level as the layout engine will mostly result in things like "row, 2, row, line, row, 3" for 2/3)
< 1260099858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to plot a function in the complex plane with mathemematica. 3D plot. x for real part, y for imaginary part (for the input value), And z for absolute value and colour for argument (for the output value)
< 1260099876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been able to figure out the colour stuff
< 1260099889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, type Plot3D, hit F1, and navigate the docs. There is a special function fofr complex numbers, I believe.
< 1260099900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the documentation search is quite good.
< 1260099903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plot complex" might help.
< 1260099934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for
< 1260099952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Here's something that'll make you go WTF: The documentation is a set of Mathematica notebooks.
< 1260099962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The documentation for Plot3D is the same thing as your REPL.
< 1260099978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can even shift-enter the examples from inside the docs.)
< 1260100000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I did on reference.wolfram.com, since the built in docs requires java (except for basic ?Function stuff). And the java stuff is what causes the exessive wakeups and CPU hogging. Using built in docs slows down the computer so much that the mouse pointer take several seconds to react
< 1260100033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The built in docs areer far superior.
< 1260100034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest fixing the Java issue, it really is a lot more pleasant with the built-in doccs.
< 1260100034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are
< 1260100056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, and here's some fun functions â€” {Example,Country,Astronomical}Data
< 1260100088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope Mathematica doesn't need installation instructions.
< 1260100091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh
< 1260100128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the java issue is known, and it is a mathematica bug, not a bug in java. Working fix not yet released.
< 1260100133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You run a script and enter two paths.
< 1260100134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this I found from googling
< 1260100142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So work around it.
< 1260100149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not heh; those functions really are fun.
< 1260100157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, official workaround is chmod a-rx JLink
< 1260100161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to disable the java stuff
< 1260100162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1260100198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do an unofficial workaround...?
< 1260100214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, none found so far. at least as far as I have been able to find
< 1260100225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried different jvms?
< 1260100229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I did
< 1260100243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, alright then.
< 1260100257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New suggestion! Use my thing instead.
< 1260100269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is some suggestion to downgrade kernel(!) to 2.6.27 or earlier, but that would break all sort of stuff. Like being able to boot my laptop iirc.
< 1260100276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure, go code it first
< 1260100378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Surely I should go design it first, being that it is a huge undertaking, involving not only the creation of a completely new, unconventional programming language that should be quite fast and yet has to be based around tree rewriting, the programming of complex and subtle algorithms as far down as basic algebra that nonetheless have to be optimised the shit out of, the programming of many, many mathematical and utility functions â€” that must run
< 1260100378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efficiently, writing the drawing layout engine, ...
< 1260100388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... but tons of other things too.
< 1260100487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why based on tree rewriting?
< 1260100502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what symbolic computation is.
< 1260100547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically the only way to easily handle expressions involving numbers like pi and insanely big 'uns and still be able to manipulate and compare them efficiently and only evaluate them to arbitrary precision at the last step.
< 1260100634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I think this plot just reinvented flower power or something
< 1260100643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, want to see?
< 1260100665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such patterns are not uncommon, but sure.
< 1260100667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot 'er up.
< 1260100671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR
< 1260100675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Save a notebook and send it to me!
< 1260100677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the expression is http://sprunge.us/QMhM
< 1260100692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression
< 1260100709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That Function would be more idiomatically written with lambda syntax
< 1260100717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh?
< 1260100719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes
< 1260100723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less copy and paste I guess
< 1260100728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#+2)& â†’ \xâ†’x+2
< 1260100728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#+#2)& â†’ \x,yâ†’x+y
< 1260100729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or you mean the colour one?
< 1260100732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# is #1, #n is argument n
< 1260100739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you postfix the expression with *
< 1260100740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm
< 1260100741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with &
< 1260100743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's weird
< 1260100744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes
< 1260100759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I just based it on the examples at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/ColorFunction.html
< 1260100776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe it isn't more idiomatic, but it is shorter, and mathematica is tedious to write :P
< 1260100786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also I didn't quite grook that syntax you just gave above
< 1260100795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed it is tedious to write indeed
< 1260100804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[19:57] ehird: btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression
< 1260100804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other tips: In and and Out actually are real arrays, you can access them in expressions; % means Out[last line], Mod+L recalls the last line, you can modify lines in place and re-evaluate them to replace them
< 1260100810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway what do you think of the result of that plot?
< 1260100824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION evaluates that
< 1260100835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nifty eh?
< 1260100849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who spiked my drink?
< 1260100858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD
< 1260100860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep.
< 1260100863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, to explain:
< 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By == I just mean is equivalent; they aren't technically equal, but they behave identically
< 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(# + 2) & == Function[x, x + 2]
< 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(# + 2 * #2) & == Function[{x, y}, x + 2 * y]
< 1260100904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits
< 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1260100916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...) & is a lambda, # is the first argument, #1 is too, #n is argument n
< 1260100931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err okay
< 1260100977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how does this call Hue, Sin and Arg?
< 1260100978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: To explain: Mathematica has postfix operators. Yes, you read that right. That's how 3! works.
< 1260100983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 3 !.
< 1260100991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Umm... the body of a lambda is just an expression.
< 1260100994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that makes perfect sense
< 1260100996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth is this confusing to you?
< 1260101012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your ColorFunction would be written as:
< 1260101029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably define f to be the function I'm plotting or something
< 1260101032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hue[Arg[2 (# + I*#2)^3 - ...]) &
< 1260101041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF are you confused about?
< 1260101041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like f[re_, im_] := ...
< 1260101043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just lambda syntax.
< 1260101050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ??????
< 1260101053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well okay
< 1260101054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1260101060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you use expressions inline with Plot3D.
< 1260101067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh?
< 1260101075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't define a function unless you need to, and if you must use PlotFunction.
< 1260101077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code duplication, can't be having with that
< 1260101080 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1260101087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you use it more than once? So you do.
< 1260101092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think there is a way to simplify this.
< 1260101097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that there is no duplication.
< 1260101100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, use PlotFunction and co.
< 1260101103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay
< 1260101111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No search results for PlotFunction
< 1260101111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm
< 1260101114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1260101117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme try and find it
< 1260101125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, nope
< 1260101126 0 :boily!n=boily@poste30-170.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260101127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just call the function then
< 1260101179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, who knows.
< 1260101236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well defining a function then using it in Plot3D seems to work
< 1260101243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe PlotFunction was for older versions?
< 1260101314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it let you actually do
< 1260101321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PlotFunction[f, {10, 50}]
< 1260101321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc
< 1260101323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be imagining it
< 1260101325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably am.
< 1260101365 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260101366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there is a parametric 3D plot
< 1260101387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right click â†’ Copy As â†’ LaTeX.
< 1260101389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm.
< 1260101393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean to address that to you.
< 1260101395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just noting a fun thing.
< 1260101407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I noticed that before
< 1260101429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\frac{1}{2}
< 1260101431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, that works.
< 1260101445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yet mathematica claims to have uniquely superior state of the art math type setting
< 1260101453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certain I saw that somewhere
< 1260101460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Mathematica's TraditionalForm output is very nice.
< 1260101471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(try TraditionalForm[Hold[some expression]])
< 1260101500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can even interpret a subset of TraditionalForm's output.
< 1260101503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of Tra
< 1260101505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid spces
< 1260101506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/RegionPlot3D.html <-- nice
< 1260101508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spaces
< 1260101550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, stupid letters
< 1260101570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, RegionPlot3D[x y z < 1, {x, -5, 5}, {y, -5, 5}, {z, -5, 5},
< 1260101570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PlotStyle -> Directive[Yellow, Opacity[0.5]], Mesh -> None] is pretty.
< 1260101573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that page
< 1260101585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently that's \text{RegionPlot3D}[x y z<1,\{x,-5,5\},\{y,-5,5\},\{z,-5,5\},\text{PlotStyle}\to \text{Directive}[\text{Yellow},\text{Opacity}[0.5]],\text{Mesh}\to \text{None}] in LaTeX.
< 1260101586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1260101613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't quite think that is true
< 1260101654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is.
< 1260101655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess it depends, I don't think the Plot commands does have any good translations
< 1260101664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's copying the formula itself.
< 1260101674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it should generate pstricks commands XD
< 1260101676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not TeX that evaluates the formula.
< 1260101692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it's just like how it'll give you 2+2 instead of \horriblemacromagic{add}{2}{2}.
< 1260101697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it should show as 2+2, not 4.
< 1260101704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah
< 1260101710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeXForm::unspt: TeXForm of Graphics3DBox[<<1>>,<<7>>,ViewVertical->{-0.210506,0.583037,0.784701}] is not supported. >>
< 1260101718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. Gimme a LaTeX version of the plot itself! :P
< 1260101758 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260101803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, wolfram is a narcissist but that's mostly the documentation's fault, usually the actual meat is good, if slow and buggy
< 1260101807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well that is non-trivial. Did you want it as an asymptote graph? Or pstricks? Or something else?
< 1260101818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram mostly sits around, mathematica isn't really his these days
< 1260101834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I want it rotatable in the output pdf, clearly.
< 1260101834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, he still write the docs?
< 1260101844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe recently added Flash embedding to pdfs...
< 1260101849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh
< 1260101850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a Câ†’ActionScript converter...
< 1260101853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260101854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Mathematica is mostly C...
< 1260101857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you see where I'm going? XD
< 1260101860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my
< 1260101865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I'm afraid so
< 1260101870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what? Câ†’ActionScript?
< 1260101873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously?
< 1260101880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's called Alchemy
< 1260101886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Flash port of Doom
< 1260101891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With it
< 1260101894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/470460
< 1260101916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Recompiled from the original sources by Mike, using Alchemy! Thanks Adobe!"
< 1260101923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much of a port, then.
< 1260101934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try changing the range to -Pi/Pi in the "Who spiked my drink" plot
< 1260101938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something strange happens
< 1260101945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact, a strange message
< 1260101947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repaste the expression?
< 1260101979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power:indet:Indeterminate expression (0.+0.ii)^(0+0.ii) encountered
< 1260101982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact
< 1260101997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those i are stylised ones
< 1260102000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paste the expression and I'll diagnose.
< 1260102004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec
< 1260102047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, http://sprunge.us/FUaa
< 1260102059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:03:34 maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start
< 1260102059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, and a lot less featureful :) maxima is alright, but it doesn't cover everything mathematica does
< 1260102071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course
< 1260102100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw how do you zoom in on a part of a plot in mathematica?
< 1260102100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: when you see an error click the >> next to it
< 1260102104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that opens in the built-in docs though, ha.
< 1260102111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there are no >> there?
< 1260102124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot.
< 1260102131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec
< 1260102147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec
< 1260102163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's shortcuts; shift-drag moves the image, alt-drag i think zooms
< 1260102181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah here we go
< 1260102181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drag \[LongDash] interactively rotate a 3D graphic
< 1260102184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic
< 1260102188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic
< 1260102195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematica provides real-time view control for all 3D graphics, wherever they may appear in a document. Mathematica's advanced human interface device system also automatically supports joystick and gamepad 3D graphics control, with special features available on the Wolfram Research 2+12 degree-of-freedom gamepad."
< 1260102198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, they have a gamepad.
< 1260102210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw for me shift-drag isn't zoom i guess ymmv
< 1260102226 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving"
< 1260102227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you zoom in you can see a white patch where the graph was cut
< 1260102233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the effects of the Poewr::indet error
< 1260102243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Power
< 1260102246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's
< 1260102250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This arithmetic corresponds to multiplying zero and infinity:"
< 1260102252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260102254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power means it happened when doing a power
< 1260102259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean the "slit" in the middle?
< 1260102264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression is, removing the immaginary part, 0^0
< 1260102266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was there in the smaller version too
< 1260102267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work it out.
< 1260102272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, yes.
< 1260102276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can see it more clearly zoomed in.
< 1260102280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the warning wasn't there then
< 1260102294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr your plotting function does 0^0 at one point
< 1260102307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix it
< 1260102326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260102329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically
< 1260102335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::indet means that the expression is indeterminate
< 1260102338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's intended, it isn't well defined over the whole range
< 1260102344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 1/0
< 1260102345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function doesn't have to be
< 1260102348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like
< 1260102354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But you told Plot3D to plot over that range.
< 1260102362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, screenshot you asked for http://omploader.org/vMnhpbg
< 1260102370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So add a safe guard.
< 1260102380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Huh. I guess Qt Mathematica is just neglected :P
< 1260102388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, argh! Turn the anntialiasing up to full in the settings!
< 1260102395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes and? If there are asymptotes I may still want to plot over that range
< 1260102401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appearance â†’ Graphics â†’ Highest Quality
< 1260102411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you can'tt compute the value for that point, you can't plot that point. Simple as.
< 1260102443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that setting makes no difference
< 1260102448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame shitty intel graphics
< 1260102455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have to reevaluate an expression
< 1260102457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even restart mathematica
< 1260102524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, none of those changed it
< 1260102541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you to go with the ati graphics
< 1260102546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you listen ohhh no :)
< 1260102559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ati graphics were reported to have power usage issues too
< 1260102570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely not at low load.
< 1260102578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares anyway, you get like 2 hours of battery anyway
< 1260102581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's near-useless
< 1260102581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, at suspend to ram
< 1260102583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even
< 1260102597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from what I heard, the open source drivers are still buggy for ati
< 1260102600 0 :cal153!n=cal@12.130.118.25 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260102638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic
< 1260102638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic
< 1260102640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason
< 1260102641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, they are, but ati have released specifications freely
< 1260102643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are reversed for me
< 1260102655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so using their closed-source drivers temporarily isn't some huge moral issue :P
< 1260102657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ditto
< 1260102667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :documentation bug?
< 1260102679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, their closed source drivers are worse
< 1260102681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever used them?
< 1260102689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a supported card, fglrx is nice.
< 1260102689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did during one point
< 1260102691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some years ago
< 1260102698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A supported, recent card, that is.
< 1260102700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fglrx crashed and froze all the time
< 1260102705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Some years ago, yes.
< 1260102707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to use reset button a lot
< 1260102716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays, they're competitive with nvidia's proprietary drivers, which are nice.
< 1260102737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe this... mathematica only provides one level of undo
< 1260102858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what sense?
< 1260102920 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260103106 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-69-52.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260103202 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260103223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, most programs provide more
< 1260103225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather
< 1260103229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most non-trivial ones
< 1260103233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, in the text entry field.
< 1260103238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just backspace, usually.
< 1260103258 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed my character's back-story, I think?? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt
< 1260103318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to see the true power of Icoruma, look at spells.irm
< 1260103364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, would want to undo last operation, say, rotating a graph
< 1260103370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or zooming something
< 1260103378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can reset that by right-clicking and choosing an option, I think.
< 1260103379 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should read the log
< 1260103381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even evaluating an expression
< 1260103549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it.
< 1260103576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what if I was re-evaluating over an old result?
< 1260103581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"don't do that then" right
< 1260103600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What about it?
< 1260103605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing that is perfectly kosher.
< 1260103729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, " AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it."
< 1260103732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't work then
< 1260103747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not?
< 1260103754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, return the evaluatation?
< 1260103756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*evaluation
< 1260103764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1260103777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, don't overwrite if you don't want to overwrite.
< 1260103808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, realised that too late? well sure, you can be extra careful and such, still a bit irritating
< 1260103831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use Mod+L to try out new ideas.
< 1260103833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ctrl, maybe.)
< 1260103835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or alt.)
< 1260103836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cmd on OS X.)
< 1260103888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl
< 1260103928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, can't test now, laptop turned off and in backpack for tomorrow, cya going to sleep soon (will probably return for a short bit in 0.5-1 hour or so)
< 1260103961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that
< 1260104021 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerman?
< 1260104247 0 :OxE6!n=mu@adsl-248-90-214.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260104298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no AnMaster is just bad at self-control
< 1260104356 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi 230
< 1260104378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: HEY i object to offering that room to bsmntbombdood, i'm reserving that shit
< 1260104380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260104400 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes to use quote-marks when quoting people
< 1260104412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't quote anyone
< 1260104417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
< 1260104421 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok
< 1260104422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i couldn't live in finland anyway it has mandatory military service
< 1260104442 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""ACTION likes to use quote-marks when quoting people"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
< 1260104477 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get ACTION from?
< 1260104488 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The screen.
< 1260104491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"/me"
< 1260104505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:13:07 * AnMaster suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced
< 1260104505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, advertising! It's so unusual for a capitalist company to be capitalist.
< 1260104521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking on a sponsored link shortens your lifespan by 5 years, you know. EVIL
< 1260104526 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that /me is transmitted using "ACTION" and some magic char, but I don't know what kind of IRC client would actually show you that string "ACTION"
< 1260104542 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHIRC does
< 1260104555 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it displays it in red (normal messages are in blue)
< 1260104575 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird
< 1260104577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHIRC being zzo38's own client.
< 1260104583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written in PHP, for the command-line, I believe.
< 1260104586 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is
< 1260104594 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is written to be used with PuTTY
< 1260104595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just, uh, leave it at that, yeah.
< 1260104697 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in what way is it specially adapted for PuTTY?
< 1260104705 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how many users do yuo have? ;-)
< 1260104711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: have you ever *used* cmd.exe?
< 1260104718 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if anyone else other than me have used it
< 1260104728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this is the guy who has said he'll switch to linux when he needs to buy a new computer, but he'll make it entirely from scratch
< 1260104735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'll bet uh
< 1260104736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 user
< 1260104752 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely from scratch, but more from scratch than most distributions
< 1260104754 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what does cmd.exe have to do with this?
< 1260104761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putty vs cmd.exe
< 1260104768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a terminal
< 1260104770 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmd.exe is the Windows command-line
< 1260104773 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1260104791 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows console window doesn't support the ANSI/VT/XTERM terminal codes
< 1260104813 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PuTTY supplies its own terminal emulator
< 1260104835 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because PuTTY's terminal emulator supports the codes I used.
< 1260104880 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PuTTY also supports the codes that irssi etc use
< 1260104889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but zzo38 didn't write irssi.
< 1260104909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FreeGeek has terminals for Linux, and I have some troubles to run it on there using Xterm or the other ones
< 1260104914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use irssi
< 1260104925 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! I see what zzo38 means now I think...
< 1260104937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my own because I didn't like some things in other IRC client so I decided to write my own to make it the way I wanted it to be
< 1260104968 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is on windows, and he wrote an IRC client for use within PuTTY as opposed to for fur use within the windows CLI?
< 1260104983 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a screen-shot if you want to see: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/IRC-strange-characters.png
< 1260104996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yes.
< 1260104998 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and there's another screen-shot: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/screenshot0.png
< 1260104998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In PHP.
< 1260105072 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even know that PHP did CLI stuff
< 1260105088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: It does ... painfully...
< 1260105100 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the display format seems to be quite close to the IRC protocol
< 1260105102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: It is, of course, a hideous abuse.
< 1260105111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite close â€” you mean, identical.
< 1260105133 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it get confusing if you are on 20 channels?
< 1260105162 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP does do CLI stuff. And some programs, such as FurryScript, are a CLI program and then other PHP program can include it in a HTML form
< 1260105170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is only in here
< 1260105194 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yes it can get confusing on 20 channels if you use that many channels on the same server at once!!
< 1260105202 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 must be the re-incarnation of Chuck Moore or something
< 1260105208 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't ever use that many channels at once, not even on separate servers
< 1260105215 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1260105248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Hey, Chuck Moore used a *decent* language. :)
< 1260105256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, can an alive person really be reincarnated?
< 1260105263 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno
< 1260105271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Moore, O, I did write Forth interpreters, and some programs in some Forth systems too.
< 1260105285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put a Forth interpreter in MegaZeux, and I wrote a program for writing GameBoy programs in Gforth
< 1260105344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be fun to work for Chuck Moore's company. I wonder if his odd manner of speech is the same in person.
< 1260105457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that <-- taking a shower before
< 1260105462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was what I did
< 1260105514 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was thinking more about the willingness to put lots of effort into replacing huge existing bits of software with stuff you wrote yourself
< 1260105539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think syntax-highlighting IRC really takes *that* much code...
< 1260105554 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, exactly
< 1260105566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what would it syntax highlight on?
< 1260105578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :embedded code examples?
< 1260105579 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his software does what he needs with way less code than ordinary irc clients
< 1260105580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.06
< 1260105582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or IRC itself
< 1260105591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh logs
< 1260105592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1260105595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yes, but i contend that the simple code involved isn't that much effort
< 1260105598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that should be simple
< 1260105602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regex even
< 1260105613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match date data
< 1260105617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1260105619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no
< 1260105620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i meantt
< 1260105626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the F. logs
< 1260105630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see what we're talking about
< 1260105631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: his fork of Conkeror with ... green tabs, and rewritten gopher support with a scripting language... that's probably a better example
< 1260105635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few more lines to handle join/part/quit and /me
< 1260105658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're rambling about an irrelevant thing.
< 1260105665 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah, not that much effort
< 1260105691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(his fork's at http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/; i'll leave that root link there because it's fun trying to figure out where the page is)
< 1260105692 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: where do you find the time to write all that sort of stuff?
< 1260105708 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: I don't know
< 1260105738 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it not actually take that much time
< 1260105789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can try to figure out
< 1260105829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah you mean highlighting the protocol itself yes
< 1260106054 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1260106075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone tell that guy it's 0x
< 1260106123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, can an alive person really be reincarnated? <-- i've read claims to that effect. after all in some spiritual traditions, time is an illusion as is the individual
< 1260106136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*, as
< 1260106162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to say "yes, but that's just unsubstantiated bullshit". then i realised we were talking about reincarnation
< 1260106164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, invalid in nicks though
< 1260106171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're invalid in nicks.
< 1260106177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260106184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so is your mom
< 1260106346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : int width_times_height_minus_one = width * (height - 1);
< 1260106347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :â€”actual C code
< 1260106363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what program?
< 1260106380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A really terribly-written one, clearly.
< 1260106391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/raw/1703757
< 1260106423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrrrgh.
< 1260106462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... not only is the name hideously verbose, not descriptive and much longer than the actual expression, it's an expression that has near NO cost.
< 1260106481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what is the program? What program is this function part of?
< 1260106486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "int * map", way to have the disadvantages of "int* map" while still looking weird.
< 1260106496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the entire "program"
< 1260106510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grbec
< 1260106510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :includes link for what it's for
< 1260106517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grssk counterpoint â€” a really concise J version
< 1260106523 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer like "int*map" instead of "int * map"
< 1260106554 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes program in C, I added codes into MegaZeux in C
< 1260106596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh that is just as bad
< 1260106597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int *map
< 1260106601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I would write
< 1260106619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int*map is alright since the * is almost like a space, but I would write int *map too.
< 1260106622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so you write int*map,*foo;
< 1260106628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks plain weird
< 1260106631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I omit spaces almost always.
< 1260106640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int *map, *foo;
< 1260106641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course
< 1260106644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. i'd write x=(y*z)/f; instead of x = (y * z) / f;
< 1260106648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/)/
< 1260106656 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I never declare multiple pointers on the same line, and I also never declare pointers and non-pointers on the same line
< 1260106660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if(x) instead of if (x)
< 1260106665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if(x){ instead of if (x) {
< 1260106668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd generally write int *map, as well. For such is what the good Lords of C, K&R intended.
< 1260106673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write like: if(x) {
< 1260106675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i do add whitespace in places that others don't
< 1260106677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance
< 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int
< 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(...)
< 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{
< 1260106687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you can grep for ^foo(
< 1260106700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: k&r is obsolete, plan 9 c is the amended k&r style! :-P
< 1260106709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is, uh, identical to what I just said)
< 1260106721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Plan 9 C is also acceptable. It offends not.
< 1260106766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferring K&R over Plan 9 C is like, um, only reading the KJV! As opposed to some other bible that is. Not as opposed to no bible. Also only the Christian bible.
< 1260106766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it confusing to see "int *map=something;" so that's why I omit the space.
< 1260106770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was tenuous.
< 1260106779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I find that quite readable.
< 1260106787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The value assigned is bound tightly to the variable.
< 1260106798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a=3, b=4, c=5; is nice and readable.
< 1260106810 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is confusing because it is the value of the variable called "map" not the value of the variable called "*map" at first
< 1260106813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a = 3, b = 4, c = 5; makes it harder to distinguish each definition, so I omit the spaces.
< 1260106814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about int a,b,c;\na=b=c=3;
< 1260106816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example
< 1260106821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That's true.
< 1260106834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't int a=b=c=3; work?
< 1260106837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no
< 1260106838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should :P
< 1260106843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how could it?
< 1260106845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'd write it as either
< 1260106856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a,b,c;
< 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=b=c=3;
< 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or
< 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a, b, c;
< 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=b=c=3;
< 1260106858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on how i felt.
< 1260106861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the names were longer, probably the latter.
< 1260106861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last time I wrote C code it was like that first prototype J interpreter. Incredibly dense and macroy, all functions fitting on 1 line.
< 1260106870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're literally a, b and c I would write it without the spaces.
< 1260106877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't make functions fit on one line :P
< 1260106882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just try to make my code reasonably readable when it comes to spacing
< 1260106891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the int *foo thing
< 1260106898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've read your code and find it to have too many spaces to read nicely.
< 1260106909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaces are meant to separate; when you put them around everything, it's like a linear blob of mud.
< 1260106909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, different taste *shrug*
< 1260106915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, each operator looks sparkly and pretty.
< 1260106922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's disconnected, floating away from the relevant operandss.
< 1260106924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*operands
< 1260106928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, newly washed and hand polished!
< 1260106929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also
< 1260106938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to do i++; not i ++
< 1260106940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1260106946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ++ ;
< 1260106951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1260106953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So, you're inconsistent too? Whoopy
< 1260106959 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 i +!
< 1260106961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even K&R C omitted quite a lot of spaces, btw.
< 1260106964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well sure, if it is for readability
< 1260106974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd never catch "a = (b * c) / f;" being written by them.
< 1260106979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why should I care about K&R? I mostly write the code to be readable by myself
< 1260106979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "a = (b*c)/f;" at most.
< 1260106994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a lot of people who write in such a hideous over-spaced style claim to write in K&R style.
< 1260106999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm more offended by the redundant brackets than the whitespace :-P
< 1260107001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about a = ( b * c ) / f ;
< 1260107007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeargh)
< 1260107030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In my opinion, b*c/f is easily parsed as both b*(c/f) and (b*c)/f.
< 1260107046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your opinion is poor
< 1260107048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, */+- have easy to remember well defined ordering
< 1260107058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other operators may be harder to remember
< 1260107059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't want to remember it, it's arbitray.
< 1260107061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*arbitrary.
< 1260107070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is standard math practise
< 1260107079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't mathematics.
< 1260107080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practice*
< 1260107097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, those are math expressions. And?
< 1260107103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they are not.
< 1260107112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh?
< 1260107118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, a+b > a can be true.
< 1260107119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm
< 1260107121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+b < a
< 1260107121 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1260107124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a+b < b
< 1260107129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all sorts of things
< 1260107157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rule to use with parentheses, IMO, is to use them when the order of operations could reasonably be misunderstood.
< 1260107175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that (a*b)/f is one of those cases.
< 1260107179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As would I.
< 1260107188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I would disagree
< 1260107195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < I would agree however
< 1260107206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however
< 1260107217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find the (a*b)/f irritating
< 1260107221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with either
< 1260107223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why I chose f for that variable.
< 1260107226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably write both
< 1260107236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also like to note that it only makes a difference with integer arithmetic as done in most programming languages, and not on the reals...
< 1260107239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoo.
< 1260107252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm?
< 1260107262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's a disagreement about whether it was ambiguous between two people who don't think the other is *completely* insane, then it's ambiguous.
< 1260107266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a*(b/f) = (a*b)/f in "real math".
< 1260107269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes a difference with floating-point arithmetic as well
< 1260107279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also true.
< 1260107284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A float is definitely not a real.
< 1260107293 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true
< 1260107293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes indeed
< 1260107305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just couldn't parse the English there
< 1260107328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too tired
< 1260107821 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260108107 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"
< 1260108401 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260108406 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260108820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rewrites his sconvert utility in haskell
< 1260108840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell for vertical scones
< 1260108855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Storage Convert. :P
< 1260108941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night â†’
< 1260108960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=231
< 1260109114 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260109694 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep"
< 1260109908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving"
< 1260110396 0 :nate!n=nate@unaffiliated/nate JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260110433 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260110446 0 :nate!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I get assistance here on brainfuck code?
< 1260110865 0 :nate!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1260112132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you're patient.
< 1260112408 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260112671 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, better Nate than Lever!
< 1260112678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_<
< 1260112678 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
< 1260112689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent half an hour reading that joke and at the end I was "..." for about as long
< 1260112706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't get me wrong, it was an enjoyable story
< 1260112710 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is traditional to put a small novel-worth of shaggy dog story before that pun
< 1260112716 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you too
< 1260112732 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only works in American
< 1260112747 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lever" and "never" don't rhyme in English
< 1260112762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, my brain adjusted for it
< 1260112770 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1260112776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as soon as I read "better Nate than" my brain went into RHYME AT ALL COSTS mode
< 1260112821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be fun to have a novel of Finnegans Wake length that all builds up to one terrible pun
< 1260112828 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls the guy that didn't realise you could be in more than one IRC channel at once
< 1260112835 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: aye
< 1260112861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would need to be written "properly", otherwise people wouldn't stick at it long enough
< 1260112872 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, so it actually worked without the pun
< 1260112891 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, then the editor would cut the pun at the end as ruining the whole tone of the book
< 1260112919 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the whole thing was suficiently surreal, when you might get away with just hinting at it
< 1260112932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :publish it on the internet, have a hardcopy on lulu, and solicit donations. you'll get very little money and little exposure, but it's free :P
< 1260112935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no editors
< 1260112957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: maybe the book could turn into a book about writing the book gradually
< 1260112971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so the ending pun could be mentioned as a pun you were *going* to add
< 1260112978 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1260112994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all the characters laugh, for which there is no explanation
< 1260113113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just reminding me that i have a semi-decent idea for an AI short story and no writing talent, topic change time!
< 1260113158 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AI"?
< 1260113167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :artificial intelligence
< 1260113180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AI short story" is confusing, agreed
< 1260113199 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define
< 1260113256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a short story concerning an artificial intelligence (or indeed many); subgenre of scifi
< 1260113264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond that, I'm sure you own a dictionary :-P
< 1260113281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if i wanted to be specific it'd technically about the singularity
< 1260113293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but beyond that there starts to be a fine line between a specific genre and the actual story :P
< 1260113365 0 :OxE6!n=mu@adsl-248-90-214.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260113381 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok
< 1260113388 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OxE6: s/O/0/
< 1260113391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you think i meant?
< 1260113393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: i said that earlier
< 1260113395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not valid on irc
< 1260113594 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ah, ok
< 1260113805 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is the best I can do on irc unfortunately :(
< 1260114967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OxE6: {0xE6}
< 1260114972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evaluates to 0x56 in all good languages!
< 1260114975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm
< 1260114978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0xE6
< 1260115026 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1260115028 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+
< 1260115031 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1260115131 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1260115205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More people should use SI prefixes on currency!
< 1260115214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 million dollars? Pah! 1 M$, methinks!
< 1260115248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 billion? 1 G$!
< 1260115255 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260115273 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people already say megabucks
< 1260115273 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1260115273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if you have 10^21 bucks, well that'd be 1 Z$.
< 1260115287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Yes, but they never say M$!
< 1260115295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always 1M $.
< 1260115297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor do they progress past M!
< 1260115302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gigadollar sounds so cool.
< 1260115315 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.21 JIGGAWATTS!
< 1260115317 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used megametres a lot back in school
< 1260115365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people would say 1,000 km :P
< 1260115375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Ym = really fucking long
< 1260115382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z is the best prefix though.
< 1260115384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's a bloody Z.
< 1260115469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I think furlong/firkin/fortnight is the best system of measurements.
< 1260115472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps attoparsecs, too.
< 1260115533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 km/h is 100 kilofurlongs per fortnight (100 kfl/fn). The more you know.
< 1260115712 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1260115713 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about beard seconds? :D
< 1260115728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SECONDS ARE A HERETICAL UNIT OF MEASUREMENT!
< 1260115741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only qualm with the furlong/firkin/fortnight system is that it uses SI prefixes.
< 1260115754 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humorous_units_of_measurement#Beard-second
< 1260115766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know.
< 1260115775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beardseconds are necessarily related to seconds.
< 1260115784 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1260115798 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what measurements of time are "good" then?
< 1260115845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements.
< 1260115851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, a smoot might be a good base.
< 1260115892 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"going back to my dorm"
< 1260115900 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im surprised an article this awesome has survived the rampaging wikicops and deletionists
< 1260115920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Philosophers talking about Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism sometimes use the conceptual unit of the Hedon to describe the amount of pleasure, equivalent to the amount of pleasure a person receives from gaining one util of utility."
< 1260115930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's utilon, bitches!
< 1260115932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yudkowsky says so.
< 1260115966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hedon vs util(on) reminds me of watt vs joule
< 1260116073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone's formalised Utilitarianism (given black boxes to deal with fiddly ill-defined human matters)
< 1260116336 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260116649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, cinnamon peppermint soda.
< 1260116748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: send me a bottle.
< 1260116752 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1260116757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Send yourself a bottle!
< 1260116772 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260116776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a word! conceviances, n. that which is conceived. misconceviances, n. that which is misconceived.
< 1260116788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are excellent words to describe: ideas; children.
< 1260116789 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in a bunch of cases sure
< 1260116796 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually in terms of monetary compensation though
< 1260116806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't see utilitarianism as being economic
< 1260116817 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like did you never see one of those industrial-injury payout tables
< 1260116824 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost digit gets you such-and-such
< 1260116827 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost limb is worth this
< 1260116841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost eye is worth another amount
< 1260116848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more about physical pain than the more lofty hedonism of utilitarianism, imo
< 1260116855 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1260116860 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about dismemberment, not pain
< 1260116872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you know what i mean
< 1260116875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about physical injuries
< 1260116884 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example, the loss of a right hand is more than the loss of a left hand (mutatis mutandis)
< 1260116890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :utilitarianism is mostly about intellectual achievement
< 1260116896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: that's leftist! :P
< 1260116902 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence mutatis mutandis
< 1260116909 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't just break out in latin for no reason >:|
< 1260116990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where as I do! Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
< 1260117057 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260117183 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes
< 1260117340 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1260119293 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :poiuy_qwert
< 1260119564 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1260123242 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-3.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260123888 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260125574 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *"
< 1260125729 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1260126214 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1260128988 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1260129356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1260130639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Network is unreachable
< 1260133360 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260133957 0 :mu!n=mu@wl01-copier-103a.dc.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260133965 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6
< 1260135221 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services.
< 1260135222 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260135230 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6
< 1260136695 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1260136758 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260139042 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1260139826 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260141079 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260141085 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6
< 1260141239 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260141788 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric
< 1260141929 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
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< 1260142411 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1260142682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ah, well, better Nate than Lever! <-- I did get the joke in the first context (of that nick) but what on earth was the stuff about the dog story about?
< 1260142820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps attoparsecs, too. <-- that works out to.. uh... 3 cm or such?
< 1260142858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to google, 3.09
< 1260142893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements. <-- centifortnight?
< 1260143036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, units(1) claim 3.0856776
< 1260143051 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was rounding
< 1260143062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Planck units > all
< 1260143069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually gussed it would work out to "less than a meter, more than a millimeter" before checking)
< 1260143342 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1260143572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode."