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05:13:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hi there
05:13:20 <AnMaster> any good at sql?
05:13:30 <AnMaster> I'm getting some strange behaviour here that I'm unable to explain
05:13:48 <ais523> no, I'm not particularly good at SQL
05:14:18 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so know any issues with ((a full join b on ...) left join c on ...) ?
05:14:31 <AnMaster> basically the outer one is behaving as a full join for unknown reason
05:14:34 <ais523> that that looks like a pain to optimise?
05:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, this isn't meant to run fast, it is a off by one thing to verify stuff before fixing normalising in this exercise
05:15:18 <AnMaster> well the nested join query is not in the exercise itself
05:15:41 <AnMaster> I just try to work out if this is reasonable
05:20:23 <AnMaster> ais523, okay it seems to be a bug. But I have a much more recent version than when it should have been fixed
05:25:35 <AnMaster> ffs. sqlite doesn't support right/full outer joins
05:25:38 <AnMaster> so can't check with that
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05:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think syntax errors should be deterministic?
05:37:43 <ais523> depends on the language
05:37:47 <AnMaster> ais523, SQL
05:37:55 <ais523> it's close enough to INTERCAL, so why bother
05:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm getting random syntax errors once in a while, re-executing the query seems to work
05:38:21 <ais523> sounds like an interp bug
05:38:30 <AnMaster> ais523, postgresql-8.4
05:41:20 <AnMaster> ais523, it could be in the frontend though
05:41:25 <AnMaster> I'm not using the command line tool
05:41:29 <AnMaster> and it is pretty rare
05:41:40 <ais523> yay, clog is back
05:41:49 <AnMaster> oh and that full/left bug seems to actually have been correct. It was incorrect in the other dbms instead
05:44:04 <ais523> ehird: the Google "did you mean" thing keeps backfiring on me because I mostly use it for esolang searches
05:44:11 <ais523> where what it thinks is a misspelling is actually what I meant
05:44:16 <ais523> no real problem, though, it's just an extra click
05:44:57 <ais523> also, there seems to be a euro sign in clog's mojibake logs; strange choice of encoding to generate the mojibake in...
05:50:45 <ais523> o
05:52:31 <ais523> 06:04:20 <ehird> nested: A[X][Y]          = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
05:52:33 <ais523> 06:04:21 <ehird>       | {A[X]:nested}[Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y]
05:52:37 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the mojibake?
05:52:39 <ais523> now I'm trying to think of a way to get that to parse as valid Perl
05:52:42 <ais523> AnMaster: a couple of days ago
05:52:57 <ais523> possibly it shows for me and not you, mojibake tends to do that sort of thing
05:53:08 <AnMaster> ais523, link to log in question?
05:53:11 <AnMaster> and what line
05:53:16 <ais523> not now, I'm busy
05:53:17 <AnMaster> something to grep for i mean
05:53:23 <ais523> try grepping for €
05:53:27 <AnMaster> ah
05:53:40 <ais523> or failing that, "Bing as Search Engine Provider"
05:53:54 <ais523> for the 09.12.05 logs
05:54:56 <AnMaster> "bing" sounds so silly
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06:34:10 <AnMaster> ais523, make help: assuming I have a variable like: DIAGRAMS = foo bar quux, then I want a list like foo.dot bar.dot and quux.dot, oh and another one like foo.svg bar.svg quux.svg
06:34:16 <AnMaster> how do I do that based on the first variable
06:34:20 <AnMaster> I also want same for png and such
06:34:32 <AnMaster> so just two variables maintained separately would be irritating
06:35:03 <AnMaster> doing all: $(DIAGRAMS).svg $(DIAGRAMS).png just doesn't work
06:37:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I can depend on gnu make here
06:37:33 <AnMaster> but I'm having problems navigating the info pages
06:38:46 <ais523_> AnMaster: I'm not sure, and am busy trying to teach Java
06:38:50 <AnMaster> ah
06:38:55 <ais523_> generally speaking I'd do it by hand, though
06:39:08 <ais523_> I tend to code a lot more explicitly in makefiles than most people
06:39:09 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seen a simple solution for it
06:39:11 <AnMaster> somewhere
06:39:18 <AnMaster> ais523_, that feels so wrong
06:40:13 <ais523_> not to me, I'm used to langs like C
06:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523_, C → macros
06:40:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: $(addsuffix .svg, $(DIAGRAMS)) ?
06:41:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I'm pretty sure the thing I saw was much shorter. Maybe it was for switching from one suffix to another
06:41:19 <AnMaster> anyway as long as it works
06:41:41 <AnMaster> (just defining all as .dot and them substituting the suffix somehow would also work)
06:42:45 <fizzie> $(DIAGRAMS:.dot=.svg)
06:42:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that seems like it
06:43:06 <AnMaster> weird I can't find that in any of the info pages of gnu make
06:43:20 <fizzie> $(var:x=y) is equivalent to $(patsubst x,y,$(var)).
06:43:29 <fizzie> "8.2 Functions for String Substitution and Analysis" in the GNU Make Manual.
06:44:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I was looking under the using variables chapter
06:44:16 <fizzie> Or actually $(patsubst %x,%y,$(var)) to be exact.
06:45:03 <AnMaster> weird thing: entering an absolute path starting with / in firefox works fine
06:45:12 <AnMaster> entering one starting with ~ for your home dir
06:45:13 <AnMaster> doesn't
06:45:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's in that chapter too: "6.3.1 Substitution References"
06:45:27 <Deewiant> Why is this weird?
06:45:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is it not?
06:45:49 <Deewiant> ~ is a shell-specific thing, file paths aren't
06:46:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah missed that
06:46:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works in the open and save dialogs however
06:46:27 <AnMaster> just not in the url bar
06:46:31 <Deewiant> File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses and you need to support them anyway for command-line launching
06:46:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, that's GTK for you, not Firefox.
06:47:37 <fizzie> You can probably use $(DIAGRAMS:%=%.svg) -- maybe even $(DIAGRAMS:=.svg) -- if you don't want the .dot suffixes in the definition, but I guess that's up to you.
06:47:58 * AnMaster wonders why subgraphs doesn't seem to work
06:48:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh
06:48:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, those .dot suffixes are fine
06:53:54 <AnMaster> oh neato ignores it
06:58:06 <AnMaster> meh, can't get clusters to draw an ellipse around :/
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07:45:59 <AnMaster> "Of course, the SELECT statement is compatible with the SQL standard. But there are some extensions and some missing features."
07:46:00 <AnMaster> wait what
07:46:09 <AnMaster> extensions can allow compatible yes
07:46:12 <AnMaster> but missing features?
07:50:04 <ais523_> SQL is about as nonstandardised as is theoretically possible for something so widely used
07:50:13 <ais523_> (there is a standard, just everyone seems to ignore it...)
07:51:09 <AnMaster> ais523_, yes I know, still doesn't make that quote from postgresql docs less funny
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08:05:31 <uorygl> mkdir -p //example.com/foo/bar
08:05:33 <uorygl> :-P
08:06:04 <AnMaster> uorygl, context?
08:06:22 <uorygl> < Deewiant> File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses
08:06:35 <AnMaster> uorygl, it is, there is no http: before that
08:07:08 <Deewiant> It's the "/" in the beginning that gives it away (or "C:\" or whatever on windows)
08:07:30 <AnMaster> ~ at the start of a domain name is also unheard of
08:07:34 <uorygl> mkdir -p http://example.com/foo/bar
08:07:35 <uorygl> Anyway!
08:07:38 <AnMaster> especially ~/
08:07:53 <uorygl> Slashes in domain names are so cute.
08:08:46 <AnMaster> all I suggest is that the anything matching /^(\/|~\/)/ is a local url (~ has no special meaning in this regex dialect, whichever one it is)
08:09:17 <ais523_> AnMaster: it had better be PCRE, as posix regex doesn't treat ( specially
08:09:33 <AnMaster> ais523_, probably.
08:09:42 <AnMaster> ais523_, and that is only basic posix
08:09:49 <AnMaster> extended posix does treat it specially
08:09:54 <AnMaster> just use grep -E to see
08:10:05 <ais523_> well, ok
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08:42:43 <ais523_> hey, I've just realised that the list of IRC channels I'm in which have had people join in them since I last looked at them forms a bloom hash of people who have joined IRC
08:42:58 <ais523_> not a very good one, though, because I'm not in enough channels
08:43:07 <ais523_> *bloom table
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09:25:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc
09:25:43 <oerjan> and this time i did read the first panel first, and immediately expected a pun
09:26:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
09:26:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, reminder please
09:26:56 <oerjan> mordechai, ghost, bank employee
09:27:07 <AnMaster> right
09:27:32 <oerjan> alas i didn't manage to guess the pun beforehand
09:27:43 <oerjan> not that i tried for very long
09:28:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't get the pun. Or rather. I understand it is on "dead men tell no tails", but then "huh?"
09:28:27 <oerjan> *tales
09:28:41 <oerjan> well-known proverb, or so
09:29:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah but I don't see why "tail no tellers" is funny
09:30:34 <oerjan> well it's not a particularly good pun.  it scans badly too :D
09:31:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is "teller" supposed to mean
09:31:14 <AnMaster> someone who tells something?
09:31:17 <oerjan> sheesh
09:31:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, what?
09:31:26 <oerjan> it's a banking profession
09:31:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah well that explains the pun indeed
09:49:51 <AnMaster> oh ffs, why can't graphviz -Tdia actually generate non-broken files
09:50:23 <AnMaster> maybe it is just too much to ask to get the actual edges you know, instead of just the nodes...
09:57:48 <ais523> ehird: your TURKEY BOMB semantics don't work, AFAICT it's possible to have multiple different PUDDINGs
09:58:02 <ais523> I think I was planning to make PUDDINGs lazy so you didn't have to fit the whole thing in memory at once
09:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you made that language‽‽
09:58:34 <ais523> no, I didn't
09:58:44 <ais523> I'm one of the few people to attempt to interpret the spec, though
09:59:19 <ais523> and TRIVIA is a general name for all TRIVIA CONCERNING types, I think
09:59:47 <ais523> also, the drinking game is AFAICT the only way to do control flow
10:00:01 <ais523> you can take advantage of the fact that there are two different ways to pass the TURKEY BOMB
10:01:51 <ais523> also, why would you want to email someone 2+2?
10:01:57 <ais523> even if you can do it in a nice little pipeline
10:04:12 <ais523> also, use thinspaces as the thousands specifier
10:04:17 <ais523> because that's the Right Way to do it
10:04:22 <AnMaster> okay dia is really annoying
10:04:36 <AnMaster> still graphviz doesn't do what I need so I guess I'm stuck with dia
10:05:12 <ais523> as for taking derivatives of constants
10:05:31 <AnMaster> dia even lacks something as simple as "lock object" (which is really useful if you want to align/adjust but keep one of those objects fixed and instead prefer to move the other ones
10:05:44 <AnMaster> nor does there seem to be any way to tell it specific coordinates
10:05:51 <AnMaster> oh and I can't seem to move using the cursor keys
10:05:56 <AnMaster> as in, move objects
10:06:01 <AnMaster> it moves the view instead (scrolling)
10:06:02 <ais523> go use the INTERCAL definition of "constant" (= "initialised variable you should try hard to avoid changing the value of to avoid confusing yourself"), then you can define the derivative of constants with respect to other constants
10:06:22 <AnMaster> oh and the text label editor does *not* support selections
10:07:12 <AnMaster> hm dia on my desktop seems to do a bit better than on my laptop. One of those issues solved
10:10:07 * AnMaster invents a makefile that calls dia on his desktop to automate exporting to svg. Since that on his laptop is broken
10:19:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of that idea?
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11:10:55 <oerjan> 'I can imagine the Christians' response to growing evidence of a spherical earth. "Of course there is no doubt that microcurvature is real, but this macrocurvature theory is a ridiculous fabrication."'
11:11:08 <oerjan> (from a pharyngula comment thread)
11:11:51 <oerjan> oh ehird is not here
11:11:59 <oerjan> well of course not, it's silent after all
11:12:33 <oerjan> oh wait he said he wouldn't be here until next weekend? :(
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11:25:18 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what make is designed for, isn't it
11:25:40 <AnMaster> ais523, what? building something on a remote system?
11:25:51 <ais523> following a series of repetitive steps automatically
11:25:57 <AnMaster> ais523, by scp-ing files over, running a command then scping them back
11:26:04 <ais523> exactly
11:26:29 <AnMaster> %.svg: %.dia Makefile
11:26:29 <AnMaster> scp $< $(REMHOST):$(REMPATH)/
11:26:29 <AnMaster> ssh $(REMHOST) dia -e $(REMPATH)/$@ $(REMPATH)/$<
11:26:29 <AnMaster> scp $(REMHOST):$(REMPATH)/$@ $@
11:26:32 <AnMaster> not very pretty
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11:31:54 <AnMaster> ais523, so lets see the crazy way I did today: generate basic thing in graphviz, then export to dot, fix up broken export result manually in dia (and fix the things I couldn't do in graphviz, which was why I needed dia in the first place), then export the whole thing to svg, fix up some minor issues in inkscape, then export to pdf
11:32:01 <AnMaster> for about 20 diagrams
11:32:22 <AnMaster> s/the whole thing/each diagram/
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11:37:34 * oerjan cannot quite find out whether that thing was an asimov quote or not
11:39:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, what thing?
11:39:21 <oerjan> the comment quote i pasted
11:39:46 <AnMaster> oh that
11:39:51 <AnMaster> google it?
11:40:02 <oerjan> i tried
11:40:15 <oerjan> top hit is the comment thread itself
11:40:29 <oerjan> i think it was just inspired
11:41:45 <oerjan> hm the idea also appears in a pandasthumb thread
11:41:58 <oerjan> from 2004
11:42:28 <AnMaster> err
11:42:41 <ais523> <AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting.
11:42:48 <AnMaster> spherical earth... isn't that universally accepted apart from a few lunatics
11:42:51 <ais523> wow, that took you a while....
11:43:00 <AnMaster> ais523, see next few lines
11:43:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's an analogy you dumbass
11:43:33 <oerjan> to anti-evolutionists
11:43:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wasn't aware of the context.
11:45:10 <ais523> AnMaster: a single word which gives 1 google hit all by itself is a "googlewhackblatt", according to New Scientist
11:45:20 <ais523> who coined the word specifically so that it would appear on exactly one website for a while
11:47:52 <oerjan> there's an even more obscure word for it.  however it is essentially impossible to find it because the author took strict steps to keep it self-referential.
11:48:01 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that supposed to be some sort of serious magazine or such?
11:48:10 <ais523> yes, it is
11:48:17 <ais523> but the penultimate page is rather less serious
11:48:19 <ais523> and it was on ther
11:48:20 <ais523> *there
11:48:22 <AnMaster> ah
11:48:59 <ais523> it's sort of like worsethanfailure, except it refers to science not programming and it's still firmly on the correct side of the shark
11:49:25 <SimonRC> ah, yeah Last Word
11:49:32 <SimonRC> that was good last time I read it
11:49:39 <SimonRC> I think you can read some of it online
11:49:47 <ais523> no, last word's the last page
11:49:51 <ais523> penultimate page is Feedback
11:50:11 <ais523> (Last Word is pretty interesting too, it's basically gives bounties for answering interesting everyday science queries)
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12:08:49 <Gregor> Gingersnap soda: DELICIOUS.
12:25:41 <SimonRC> um, ok
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12:30:00 <ais523> heh, I was reading the discussion about zzo38 being like Chuck Moore, and I accidentally misread it as Chuck Norris
12:30:05 <ais523> which was amusing, to say the least
12:30:25 <oerjan> <_< >_>
12:37:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hehe
12:37:15 <AnMaster> you made me actual laugh out loud, that's rare
12:37:25 <ais523> Chuck Norris jokes do that
12:37:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what? make people laugh out loud? not really
12:37:54 <AnMaster> but comparing zzo to Chuck Norris did
12:38:30 <AnMaster> ais523, also you said "accidentally misread" it. It would be pretty strange to intentionally misread that one
12:38:39 <AnMaster> so was that qualification really required?
12:39:10 <oerjan> always unnecessary words
12:42:36 <SimonRC> I have considered some Chck Moore Facts, but ran out of ideas quickly
12:42:49 <SimonRC> I can't stretch the truth very well in that way
12:43:31 <SimonRC> "First Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then the problem surrenders."
12:43:52 <ais523> Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter!
12:43:55 <SimonRC> which is the approach that he advocates in his writings
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12:50:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter!
12:50:19 <AnMaster> this is awesome
12:50:22 <AnMaster> should make a new meme
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13:41:38 <adam_d> really? :)
13:42:35 <AnMaster> adam_d, really what?
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14:28:00 <AnMaster> night →
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14:40:01 <Oranjer> anyone alive
14:40:02 <Oranjer> ?
14:40:48 <poiuy_qwert> i am
14:41:01 <oerjan> brains...
14:41:55 <augur> oi oi oi
14:42:07 <Oranjer> ahhh
14:42:19 <oerjan> ummm
14:48:50 <pikhq> No.
14:49:32 <Oranjer> oh
14:49:34 <Oranjer> sorry
14:49:40 <oerjan> darn
14:49:52 <Oranjer> what
14:50:07 <oerjan> are you sure about this?
14:51:04 <Oranjer> I...well, there's no turning back now, anyway
14:51:14 <oerjan> true, true
14:52:59 <Oranjer> so...I mean, will there be a sign?
14:53:34 <oerjan> negative
14:54:07 <Oranjer> is...is that a joke? I can't remember...anything
14:54:16 <oerjan> oh dear
14:54:50 <Oranjer> what?
14:55:35 <oerjan> in that case, you owe me 200 dollars
14:55:51 <oerjan> just a reminder
14:55:53 <Oranjer> what denomination?
14:56:13 <oerjan> well you are in the US aren't you
14:56:39 <Oranjer> maybe
14:56:44 <Oranjer> so, Southern baptist?
14:57:11 <oerjan> is that one of those fundamentalist ones?
14:57:18 <Oranjer> yep
14:57:23 <oerjan> then no
14:57:27 <Oranjer> I hate fundamentalist dollars too
14:58:05 <oerjan> maybe we should go by canadian ones.  even if they're less worth
14:58:28 <lament> canadian dollars are not worthless!
14:58:39 <oerjan> i didn't say that
14:59:11 <oerjan> i just thought they'd be less fundamentalist
14:59:46 <Oranjer> ah
14:59:48 <Oranjer> maybe
15:00:07 <Oranjer> but the Canadian separatist dollars are worth half, I think
15:00:30 <oerjan> ah
15:01:05 <Oranjer> yep
15:01:14 <Oranjer> borders are borders, even if you can't see them from space
15:03:10 <oerjan> let's not cross that line
15:03:28 <Oranjer> what's the point
15:06:45 <oerjan> i think we are going in circles
15:07:10 <OxE6> lets go in octagons instead
15:07:12 <OxE6> or dodecagons
15:07:59 <Oranjer> have you read "The Phantom Tollbooth"?
15:08:10 <oerjan> nope
15:08:11 <OxE6> yep
15:08:22 <OxE6> I want some subtraction soup
15:08:23 <Oranjer> awesomes
15:08:26 <Oranjer> heh
15:11:31 <oerjan> well as long as it isn't additive
15:11:58 <Oranjer> heh
15:11:59 <OxE6> I don't think there are any additives in subtraction soup
15:12:07 <Oranjer> ohhhhh
15:12:22 <OxE6> </badpun>
15:12:30 <Oranjer> actually, I first read that as "addictive:, I am confused
15:12:45 <oerjan> Oranjer: that was actually intended
15:15:21 <Oranjer> oh, okay
15:15:30 <Oranjer> ha, ha. ha!
15:16:05 <oerjan> ah.
15:19:06 <Oranjer> awww
15:19:20 <oerjan> what
15:20:55 <Oranjer> nothing
15:21:05 <Oranjer> just thinking of the books I gotta write
15:21:18 <Oranjer> and the buziniss I gotta start
15:21:27 <oklofok> yeah i have to write like 7 books for this algebra course
15:21:41 <oklofok> by tuesday
15:21:46 <oerjan> oklofok: you are doing things backwards
15:22:17 <oklofok> HUH?
15:22:53 <oerjan> in courses, you are supposed to read books not write them
15:23:31 <Oranjer> perhaps
15:23:48 <oklofok> but how would i know how to read them if i haven't written ones myself?
15:23:48 <Oranjer> it could always be some algebra-book-writing course
15:23:54 <Oranjer> which is weird, yeah
15:24:05 <Oranjer> I...I have to disagree on that
15:24:21 <Oranjer> if you've written a sentence, you can theoretically write a book
15:25:05 <Oranjer> therefore, it is no more necessary to write a book in order to read them than it is to learn how to make a car from scratch in order to drive it
15:25:06 <oerjan> if you never write a sentence, it is much harder
15:25:54 <oklofok> have i mentioned you people are really weird.
15:26:04 <oerjan> i have to disagree on that ... logic
15:26:15 <oerjan> oklofok: it's the fumes
15:26:29 <oklofok> what fumes
15:26:35 <oerjan> just the logic, mind you, not the conclusion
15:26:55 <oerjan> the madness-inducing fumes
15:26:59 <Oranjer> well, I also disagree on the logic
15:27:02 <Oranjer> I left too much out
15:27:14 <Oranjer> I should have explicitly stated the assumptions
15:28:17 <oerjan> but to really state it properly, you would have to write a book, which would defy the whole purpose
15:30:29 <Oranjer> dammit
15:30:29 <Oranjer> hmmm
15:30:29 <Oranjer> if only...
15:30:35 <Oranjer> we could store the assumptions on a site
15:31:19 <Oranjer> then you pick and choose which ones
15:31:25 <Oranjer> it generates a webpage
15:31:30 <Oranjer> and you post the link!
15:31:56 <SimonRC> reminds me of _Paradise Lost In Cyberspace_
15:32:18 <SimonRC> There was a website there that contained the proof of God's existance.
15:32:26 <Oranjer> haha
15:32:35 <Oranjer> did...God disappear afterward?
15:32:37 <SimonRC> But it was infinite, and you never got any close no matter much you read it.
15:32:42 <Oranjer> heh
15:32:48 <Oranjer> sounds like Hofstadter stuff
15:34:19 <SimonRC> http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLICS.html
15:34:43 <SimonRC> not to be confused with a somewhat thematically-similar one by the same guy: http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLIS.html
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16:09:51 <Oranjer> NO
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