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01:13:03 <coppro> AnMaster: Partway throu
01:13:09 <coppro> *through Unseen Academicals now
01:13:10 <AnMaster> coppro, when you said that however I was away getting a haircut
01:13:44 <coppro> book is thoroughly awesome
01:13:55 <coppro> AnMaster: I'm Sorry I Haven't A CLue
01:14:09 * AnMaster tries to locate context of that
01:14:39 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Sorry_I_Haven%27t_a_Clue
01:14:50 <AnMaster> coppro, as in "why did you mentioned it"
01:15:00 <coppro> oh, because I was listening to it
01:15:23 <coppro> I think that was right around when "Milk, milk, lemonade" was concluded with "Triple vodka, you get laid."
01:15:25 <AnMaster> coppro, conclusion: you live in UK?
01:15:38 <coppro> there's this neat thing called the Internet
01:15:57 <coppro> Hmm... was I going for 'yep' or 'yeah' there?
01:17:18 <AnMaster> you think I have an answer to that?
01:17:34 <coppro> anyways, I'm not 100% on what the big change in UA to which you were referring is
01:17:45 <coppro> though I have a guess, and it involves a capitalized pronoun
01:18:02 <coppro> my runner-up involves an empty chair
01:18:03 <AnMaster> coppro, huh? It should be clear really early on
01:18:24 <coppro> ok... it's a change, but it didn't seem earth-shattering to me
01:18:38 <coppro> plus, we got Doctor Hix.
01:18:46 <AnMaster> coppro, he showed up in an earlier book
01:19:00 <coppro> yeah, but he wasn't nearly as important
01:19:10 <coppro> "Your unappreciated comments are appreciated."
01:20:10 <coppro> and it's not like the DoPMC is new... I think it was referenced at least as far back as... uh... whichever one they had to talk to the dead guy in
01:20:26 * coppro tries to remember what book that was
01:21:51 <coppro> Guards! Guards!, maybe?
01:22:28 <coppro> AnMaster: an old wizard
01:22:33 <coppro> who's kept in a bottle, IIRC
01:22:38 <AnMaster> coppro, wasn't that making money?
01:23:13 <coppro> I don't think so though, because I'd probably remember it better if it was a recent one
01:23:44 <coppro> hmm... according to the wiki, it was only Making Money. Huh.
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03:27:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: "fizzien" would be the Finnish genetive case; the same as English "fizzie's" would be.
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03:29:36 <oklopol> fizzing each other like crazy
03:43:10 <fizzie> Okay, so it could also be some other cases; like the active instructive second infinitive of a verb ("by means of" / "while in the act of" -- like fi:juosta = to run, fi:liikkua = to move, fi:"liikkua juosten" => "to move by running"), instead of the genetive case of a noun. That was just what I judged most likely.
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03:45:32 <fizzie> Or just the accusative of the noun "fizzie"; "I bought a fizzie" => "ostin fizzien".
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03:48:21 <fizzie> I probably should disconnect that thing, it'll drop when I get off the wlan soon anyway.
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03:52:05 <fizzien900> At least I doubt it would seamlessly transition from my private wlan to 3G, given that the IP changes and all.
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04:38:13 <fizzie> Heh, the guy next to me in the train has a N900 too. :p
04:40:32 <fizzie> Oh, should get off the train too and not just play with the toy. ->
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06:55:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi there. I was away. Thus I didn't notice you join
06:56:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me which theme it was?
07:10:08 <AnMaster> hrrm this issue makes no sense
07:10:27 <oerjan> this sense makes no issue
07:10:30 <AnMaster> either gcc is mishanding volatile or I'm doing something incorrect.
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09:31:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not that this is so interesting, but I put some pictures taken with the new phone into http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/ -- it's not too shabby, but the full-size images show pretty clearly that it is definitely not a real camera.
09:32:53 <fizzie> (The automatic image-sharing/upload tools are nice, though. Except that I forgot to change the default, and therefore it ripped out the GPS location exif tags from those images. Oh well.)
09:34:04 <uorygl> Oh, it's a Uralic language.
09:37:51 * uorygl reads about Dutch instead.
09:38:51 <fizzie> Is this what they call a diss?
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09:40:23 <Gregor> So long as you're reading about germanic languages, just read about English.
09:42:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, that gallery is quite broken
09:42:33 <AnMaster> the images on the main page are stretched
09:43:10 <AnMaster> wait, it looks like they are slightly stretched and somewhat cropped
09:48:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Try reloading.
09:48:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It seems to get confused generating the rescaled images sometimes. They looked just fine when I browsed through it.
09:51:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, definitely cropped now
09:52:12 <fizzie> Yes, well, that they are.
09:52:21 <fizzie> That's what it's supposed to do.
09:52:33 <fizzie> Well, for the thumbnails, that is.
09:54:00 <AnMaster> batch command experienced an execution error
10:01:04 <fizzie> Incidentally, we visited the cafe on that there island, and it was about closing time, and there was beginning some sort of private event; when going out, I sneaked a peek through the door, and someone had set up a projector, and on the first slide of the PowerPoint (or some-such) presentation the title was "42" and the subtitle was "The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything".
10:01:17 <fizzie> Made me very curious as to what sort of an event it was.
10:01:44 <fizzie> There was also present a Finnish sort-of celebrity you probably don't know.
10:02:14 <fizzie> Uunisaari, the place those photos I linked to (about 20 comments ago) were taken.
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10:22:49 <uorygl> Gregor: but I already know a lot about English.
10:25:02 <uorygl> Declension: -s. Conjugation: -s -ing -ed.
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10:28:55 <uorygl> I think I considered Swedish once.
10:29:23 <Gregor> Then he concluded that he's not a pirate yargh.
10:30:16 <uorygl> Well, I haven't attempted to learn it.
10:30:39 <AnMaster> but maybe that is because I'm Swedish.
10:30:43 <uorygl> It has a lot of y-like vowels.
10:30:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, is that y like in English y?
10:31:31 <uorygl> And by y, I mean [y], like in the Swedish word "syl".
10:31:54 <AnMaster> uorygl, What other vowels would be similar in your opinion?
10:32:58 <uorygl> [ø], like "nöt", and [ʏ], like "syll".
10:33:07 <AnMaster> err ö and y are very different
10:33:23 <AnMaster> but ö is very very very different
10:33:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, completely different sound for ö and y
10:34:34 <uorygl> How different would you say the sounds in the English words "dress" and "lot" are?
10:35:07 <uorygl> ...hmm, I wonder if I'm just asking this as an excuse to feel elite.
10:35:21 <AnMaster> uorygl, very different at least. They are certainly closer than the vowels in "dress" and "say" though
10:35:55 <uorygl> It would help, of course, if I actually heard Swedish spoken.
10:36:03 <AnMaster> uorygl, don't have a microphone
10:36:12 <AnMaster> well, I have one, but it isn't working
10:36:26 <uorygl> Perhaps I shouldn't worry about the pronunciation for now, since I don't plan on actually speaking it any time soon.
10:36:28 <AnMaster> uorygl, there are Swedish news broadcasts from the public service radio on their website
10:37:04 <AnMaster> uorygl, the difference between "anden" and "anden" is much funnier though
10:37:26 <AnMaster> uorygl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#Stress_and_pitch
10:37:33 <Gregor> 'Say' shares a vowel with 'dress', although it is then proceeded by a different one.
10:38:02 <uorygl> Gregor: not in broad transcriptions.
10:38:11 <Gregor> The long 'a' sound is a short 'e' (eh) followed by a long 'e' (ee)
10:38:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, that's one STRANGE dialect
10:38:39 <Gregor> I'm assuming Gerneal American :P
10:38:44 <Gregor> For the reason that I speak it :P
10:38:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, which I have no clue how to speak
10:38:49 <Deewiant> uorygl: Yes, I'd say that /dɹɛs/ and /lɒt/ are about as different as one-syllable words can be :-P
10:39:26 <coppro> I'd say "dress" and "boot" are more different
10:39:32 <uorygl> Deewiant: are you sure it's not /lat/?
10:39:49 <AnMaster> coppro, how are you measuring the difference
10:39:59 <uorygl> Anyway, the vowels that are farthest apart on the vowel chart are /i/ and /ɒ/
10:40:25 <Deewiant> uorygl: Yes, I'd say /lat/ is very different.
10:40:28 <uorygl> Roughly the vowels in "Eeyore".
10:40:50 <Deewiant> uorygl: Hell, "hot" is even an example on Wikipedia's ɒ page ;-)
10:40:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, what the hell does "Eeyore" mean? And how is it pronounced?
10:40:57 <uorygl> Yeah, my accent doesn't distinguish between /a/ and /ɒ/.
10:41:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe you know of I-or
10:41:11 <uorygl> AnMaster: Eeyore is the name of a character in the Winnie the Pooh franchise.
10:41:30 <coppro> and EEOR is a mountain
10:41:31 <AnMaster> uorygl, is that the English spelling?
10:41:38 <coppro> or part of one, to be exact
10:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually it is "Ior" in Swedish iirc
10:42:02 <uorygl> It's pronounced /iːɔr/ or something.
10:42:45 * AnMaster tries to locate the book and gives up
10:45:03 * uorygl plays measures 26 through 29 of Opus 11.
10:45:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, didn't you make extra-www?
10:45:51 <Gregor> Hm, is uorygl actually Warrigal?
10:46:05 <AnMaster> Gregor, why is codu not redirecting to www.www.codu.org?
10:46:16 <AnMaster> * [uorygl] (n=warrie@lunch.normish.org): Tanner Swett
10:46:33 <Gregor> Just because I made www.www.extra-www.org doesn't mean I think it's a good idea :P
10:47:05 <AnMaster> Gregor, most things gets funnier by taking it seriously
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10:47:11 <AnMaster> this is definitely such a case
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Checking www.www.codu.org ... does not redirect
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Warning: socket_read() [function.socket-read]: unable to read from socket [104]: Connection reset by peer in /var/www/extra-www/validator.php on line 83
10:47:49 <AnMaster> Checking www.codu.org ... redirects to /WfXZN/
10:47:59 <uorygl> AnMaster: what stuff would it explain?
10:48:23 <Gregor> I guess I'll have to check that some time.
10:48:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, to vague. Try again for the time spec
10:49:45 <uorygl> Neat, no-www.org mentions extra-www.org.
10:51:04 <Gregor> I just love that yes-www.org is gone but extra-www.org is still alive :P
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10:54:48 <AnMaster> why? becuase why not overdo any assignment you get at university (this was supposed to be introduction to graphical programming)
10:55:14 <AnMaster> oh and they are antialiased, use double buffering, and alpha channel to make the balls show up easily even when on top of each other
10:56:04 <AnMaster> alas, I couldn't get page flipping to work :/
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11:04:45 <uorygl> I wanted to overdo my university assignments, but I ended up not doing them at all.
11:05:10 <uorygl> Thus, quoth my professor: "You could be getting an A in this class, and I don't know whether you're getting a C or a D."
11:06:29 <uorygl> What's stupid--me, my behavior, the professor, what the professor said, the professor's not knowing, or the system?
11:06:52 <AnMaster> uorygl, your behaviour if you were capable of better
11:08:00 * AnMaster watches the nice effects of drawing something very fast moving (balls speeding up too much between static paddles)
11:12:08 <uorygl> You should produce motion blur using a low-pass filter.
11:12:45 <uorygl> Make sure it's a theoretically perfect one.
11:14:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, well the speeds I was hitting was making the LCD show several balls at once
11:14:25 <AnMaster> uorygl, also just get a crappy enough lcd and you will get something similar
11:14:41 <AnMaster> my laptop certainly shows something similar
11:14:43 <uorygl> Right, that's why you use motion blur instead.
11:14:58 <AnMaster> uorygl, oh and I'm using allegro. That is what the assignment was about
11:15:08 <AnMaster> I suspect it will be highly non-trivial in that
11:15:29 <uorygl> Ah. You'll need to extend Allegro to support motion blur. :-P
11:15:51 <AnMaster> uorygl, ever coded with allegro? It is so portable it still supports DOS.
11:16:05 <AnMaster> and various weird colour formats
11:16:48 <AnMaster> uorygl, in fact it's docs suggests "truecolor pixel formats" is something non-standard
11:16:53 <AnMaster> oh and yes it is actively developed
11:17:13 <AnMaster> still it is rather easy to use
11:18:17 <AnMaster> uorygl, in fact allegro doesn't even support antialias in the current stable version. The development version which uses opengl as a backend does however.
11:18:55 <AnMaster> uorygl, So for antialiased balls in pong, I'm using a sprite created in gimp and saved as tga
11:19:06 <AnMaster> no it doesn't support loading png
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11:32:20 <coppro> Does anyone know a service that will run authoritative nameservers for a domain for cheap/free?
11:35:02 <Rembane> Maybe not the authoritative part... I dunno.. hang on, like to come!
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11:35:21 <coppro> I need a service that will run authoritative servers
11:35:35 <Rembane> http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/
11:35:52 <coppro> http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/faq.html#hosting
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11:50:22 <Gregor> There's freedns.afraid.org
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11:57:44 <AnMaster> coppro, run bind on your own server
11:57:56 <coppro> AnMaster: I need a server with 100% uptime
11:57:58 <AnMaster> also many places you buy domains from provide dns server for you
11:58:04 <coppro> or as close to it as possible
11:58:10 <AnMaster> coppro, forget freedns.afraid.org then
11:58:16 <AnMaster> I had uptime issues with them before
11:58:45 <coppro> it's one of the requirements for registering the domain; you have to make sure that there are two nameservers that remain up
11:59:20 <AnMaster> try another registrar that provides dns servers
11:59:37 <coppro> .ro only has one registrar
12:00:10 <coppro> the registration policy is wonderful. One-time fee.
12:00:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the thought *did* cross my mind
12:01:04 <AnMaster> but I wasn't sure what language that was
12:01:23 <Asztal> .al only allows registering .com.al, etc. :(
12:01:38 * AnMaster wonders what country (if any) .er is
12:01:51 <AnMaster> Asztal, you could change your nick to Aszcomal?
12:02:40 <coppro> they do reserve the right to start charging an annual fee though
12:04:28 <AnMaster> btw, once the assignment is sent in and such I will probably put that pong game up somewhere. I guess I could offer a binary for 64-bit linux now if anyone is interested.
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12:08:37 <fizzie> This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly.
12:09:55 <fizzie> I think everydns.net does free primary too.
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12:10:38 <AnMaster> coppro, fizzie had the solution to your DNS issue above
12:10:49 <fizzie> <fizzie> This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly.
12:10:49 <fizzie> <fizzie> I think everydns.net does free primary too.
12:10:50 <AnMaster> <coppro> | . <-- what was that about
12:11:13 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMno3Zg/pong.tar.gz if anyone cares. Needs liballegro.so.4.2
12:11:22 * coppro is confused by what fizzie said
12:11:59 <AnMaster> oh and it seems I included the xcf for those tga. Not that that matters.
12:12:36 <AnMaster> just 16 K instead of uh .... 16 K ‽‽‽
12:13:23 <fizzie> Well, what it boils down to, assuming you don't want to run a DNS server at all, is that everydns.net is one provider that does completely free "full" DNS. (I have no idea how freely their DNS zone editor allows you to do things, though.)
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12:16:51 <fizzie> And at least based on the nic.ro site, it looks as if one can only register .ro domains in the .co.ro, .ne.ro and .or.ro "top-level" subdomains, but what-the-ever.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Maybe they're just confusing, given how many plain .ro domains there seem to be.
12:17:36 <AnMaster> (if anyone tries that pong, please do mention it)
12:19:16 <fizzie> Yes, I guess rotld.ro is the new page and that's just some old relic. Funny, usually "nic.tld" tends to give at least something sensible.
12:19:43 <fizzie> (Though now that I look, seems that a completely arbitrary Finnish ISP has gone and registered nic.fi, so...)
12:21:15 <fizzie> .fi has a similar "you must have at least two nameservers online or you might lose the domain" condition, with automatical sanity checks, but they do give you lots of time to correct any problems. (And you have to live in Finland too, unlike .ro.)
12:32:37 <AnMaster> btw it seems like ompload urls are hashes, I uploaded the same file twice by mistake and got the same url back
12:36:29 <AnMaster> okay new url. And I would actually be interested in what people think about playability of http://omploader.org/vMno3cg/pong.tar.gz since it has two balls in play
12:36:38 <AnMaster> meant for two physical players at the computer btw
12:38:03 <AnMaster> oh and it is quite fun for a single player too, trying to keep both balls in the air at once
12:38:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, give me a C99 compiler for windows that works
12:38:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I thought you were on linux
12:39:23 <Deewiant> Your memory can't tell you what OS I'm in on a certain date at a certain time
12:39:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about you? 64-bit linux or not?
12:39:41 <fizzie> 64-bit linux, but I don't run untrusted binaries. :p
12:39:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah that is what you think. hehehe
12:39:56 <Deewiant> I don't feel like rebooting into Linux now so you'd need to hand me a Windows binary.
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12:40:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have any windows compiling environment set up
12:40:27 <AnMaster> so by the time I had that in vitualbox you would already be on linux
12:40:30 <fizzie> Also there is only one of me, and I can't play pong against myself.
12:40:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I found it fun to try to keep both balls in air at once
12:40:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but I'd lose!
12:41:04 <AnMaster> also the keys are up/down and w/s
12:41:23 <AnMaster> as it says in the readme in the updated version
12:41:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: Only if you can defeat yourself
12:41:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, single player variant: try to keep both scores as low as possible
12:41:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Inconvenient on non-qwerty.
12:42:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well okay I guess I could do up/down and left/right
12:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or I could make it configurable by command line parameter
12:42:32 <Deewiant> What I guess you could do is make it configurable
12:43:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, need to convert it to scan code for allegro however
12:44:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for untrusted binary. hm. you could disassemble it and check that it doesn't call syscall directly and then see with nm -D what library functions it calls
12:44:23 <AnMaster> assuming it doesn't self modify that is
12:44:30 <AnMaster> which you can see by it not calling mprotect
12:44:45 <fizzie> I don't have liballeg.so.4.2 anyway.
12:44:46 <Deewiant> dobelx64 doesn't call mprotect, but self-modifies :-P
12:45:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but you could look with readelf to see what it requests initially
12:45:20 <fizzie> Nah, still not interested. And I'm sure the liballeg.so.4.2 disassembly would be too long to read.
12:45:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you install allegro
12:45:55 <fizzie> "Kunde inte byta till graifkäget"; at least I ran it through strings.
12:46:26 <AnMaster> fizzie oops forgot to translate that. it is error message from failing to set up window
12:47:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you could just check my allegro library had same checksum as the ubuntu jaunty package one
12:48:10 <AnMaster> of course you just audited every line of disassembly ;P
12:48:25 <Deewiant> But does fizzie trust the Ubuntu packages? :-P
12:48:41 <fizzie> I only trust Deewiant. (You have to trust *someone*.)
12:48:44 <coppro> anyone know a good Marble Drop-like game that I can play on Linux (e.g. Flash or native or something)
12:48:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Last I checked you didn't trust me enough to run CCBI
12:49:09 <AnMaster> okay then fizzie *is* paranoid
12:49:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, also there is throwaway account and chroot
12:49:38 <fizzie> I don't trust chroot. :p
12:49:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about virtualbox then
12:49:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: How do you use IRC? Browse the web?
12:50:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: I trust my browser but I don't trust my kernel. That is a bit silly.
12:50:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw. how long do you think downloading visual studio from msdnaa would take. Give or take a few years?
12:50:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can't wine cross-compile using mingw?
12:51:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have no idea. And I never got mingw working even under windows so...
12:51:14 <AnMaster> well not for more than basic hello world
12:51:36 <fizzie> Mingw is just fine for Windows binary-making; I used it to build Windows binaries of our group project-work for the OpenGL course.
12:51:54 <coppro> clang should also be able to cross-compile with Winelib
12:51:54 <fizzie> Or "3d graphics programming course with a OpenGL focus", to be more exact.
12:51:56 <Deewiant> Apparently you don't even need wine
12:52:17 <coppro> you'd probably need Wine for any windows lib stuff
12:52:28 <AnMaster> is there a ready-made package for ubuntu for this?
12:52:37 <fizzie> Debian has it under the name "mingw32".
12:52:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Some link suggests that there is so for debian, at least
12:52:43 <fizzie> Don't know about Ubuntu.
12:53:00 <fizzie> "Freedom through obsolescence. Those who still really need to can now build windows executables from the comfort of Debian." (To quote the package description.)
12:54:14 <fizzie> At least here it uses the "i586-mingw32msvc-" prefix.
12:54:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about windows dll stuff
12:54:35 <Deewiant> Both mingw and msvc? What sense does that make?
12:54:39 <fizzie> So "i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o blah.exe blah.c" for the minimal case.
12:54:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: It means the msvc runtime libs.
12:55:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you link to a .dll there
12:55:19 <AnMaster> and header files for it and such
12:55:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember how that works, sorry. The necessary bits for OpenGL were built-in, I think.
12:56:23 <Deewiant> If allegro distributes a ready-built .lib as they most likely do, you can probably just link to that
12:57:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: There might've been some conversion tool involved. At least the mingw32-runtime package libs have a .a extension.
12:57:13 <Deewiant> Ah right, of course mingw libs are .a
12:57:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster confused me with his .libness
12:57:35 <Deewiant> But anyway, it's quite likely that allegro distributes a mingw .a
12:57:55 <Deewiant> Although it's admittedly more likely that they distribute only a .lib
12:58:11 <fizzie> Oh yes, there is the tool.
12:58:31 <AnMaster> that looked like one line originallyt
12:58:36 <coppro> :( no one answered my Marble Drop question
12:59:12 <AnMaster> everything from dos, mingw to msvc 6 and msvc 9
12:59:29 <fizzie> I think you can use i586-mingw32msvc-dlltool to generate what you need for linking against a DLL, but not sure.
13:01:03 <fizzie> (Maybe. The main use case is to create DLLs.)
13:01:50 <fizzie> Well, that's useful, then.
13:02:32 <Deewiant> If they offer a mingw download then they will give everything you need.
13:02:38 <AnMaster> X Error of failed request: GLXBadDrawable
13:02:45 <AnMaster> and I wasn't even using opengl
13:05:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try http://omploader.org/vMno4MA/pong-win32.tar.gz
13:05:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't work under wine giving opengl error
13:05:38 <AnMaster> I have no idea if it will work under real windows
13:07:40 <AnMaster> since you are on windows you clearly can't be scared of binaries
13:08:06 <Deewiant> I can, however, be AFK on occasion
13:09:10 <Deewiant> Even uses my keyboard's s key instead of my keyboard layout's.
13:09:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and the game itself? Works well?
13:09:48 <AnMaster> it is always hard for the creator to tlel
13:10:02 <AnMaster> after all I know exactly what it is supposed to do and exactly what I thought of testing
13:10:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the circles show up as opaque or do they clearly have an alpha channel?
13:11:07 <AnMaster> (can be seen when they cross each other easily)
13:11:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and how is the actual game play
13:12:31 <AnMaster> because background doesn't pause it here
13:12:40 <Deewiant> May be an allegro quirk on windows.
13:12:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, since you're at it, do you want to test the Windows binaries of my game too?! It's just some two-three years late w.r.t. the returning of the project, but I'm sure it'd still be very useful to test. In some sort of hypothetical sense.
13:13:10 <Deewiant> Says Mr. I Don't Trust Foreign Binaries :-P
13:13:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh there seems to be a set_display_switch_mode I could call
13:14:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: One minor flaw: the circle needs to touch the edge, not fly off it, to score a point
13:15:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you mean? That the circle should be allowed to pass a bit outside before it scores a point?
13:15:12 <Deewiant> I think it should be fully outside
13:15:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm is that the original pong behaviour? I haven't been able to find pong in ubuntu repos nor in portage
13:16:09 <AnMaster> well, ubuntu had a 3D pong thing
13:16:23 <Deewiant> The original pong does the common trick of simply moving the paddles a bit inside the map instead of putting them at the very edge
13:17:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do move them inside, by 5 pixels
13:17:19 <Deewiant> Yeah, I meant by at least the width of a circle :-)
13:17:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Don't worry, I can't find the windows binary at all.
13:17:22 <AnMaster> so that is actually 15 pixels inside that it is checking
13:17:40 <Deewiant> In the original arcade pong it's more like 5 times the size of the ball
13:18:03 <Deewiant> See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I
13:18:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe half the size of it and allow it to pass half the way out
13:18:10 <fizzie> There seems to be a Makefile.win, though. I think it even includes an icon in the .exe.
13:18:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway hitting any place after half of it makes no sense (would only push it out further)
13:18:52 <AnMaster> so allowing it to pass exactly half of the paddle sounds like a good idea
13:19:16 <Deewiant> True, it has no gameplay value beyond that point
13:19:34 * AnMaster is downloading the video Deewiant linked to
13:19:52 <Deewiant> I just think it's prettier if it goes all the way instead of suddenly disappearing
13:20:14 <Deewiant> And I guess there might be some multiplayer amusement involved in having somebody hit the ball further in
13:21:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would require me to rewrite my very simple ball bouncing code
13:21:19 <AnMaster> which just checks where on the line that is the start of the paddle we hit
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13:21:47 <AnMaster> you could get some strange effects as of now if you allowed hitting after half had passed
13:22:31 <Deewiant> Just flip the sign of the x-velocity if it's past the paddle?
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13:23:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is very inellegantly played, why don't they just move to where the ball is
13:23:59 <AnMaster> coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I
13:24:16 <fizzie> i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o ui.o ui.c -c -std=c99 -Wall -Werror -O2 -I.
13:24:16 <fizzie> cc1: warnings being treated as errors
13:24:16 <fizzie> ui.c:254: warning: C99 inline functions are not supported; using GNU89
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13:26:10 <AnMaster> meh it does allow some strange pushing
13:26:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I predicted placing them further in would break stuff. It did but not the way I expected
13:28:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you actually *do* want to try out another Windows binary (are you bored or something?), http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.zip
13:29:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikan_t%C3%A4hti
13:32:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, this game is more complicated than the version I remember :-P
13:32:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: Eh, well, here's a very fast screenshot, but it's not really showing up its best side: http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.png
13:32:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe not. Though the gemstones you find aren't too shabby, I seem to remember.
13:33:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can also rotate and zoom with the cursor keys, that might not be immediately obvious.
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13:33:20 <Deewiant> Yeah, I was just about to ask if I can get a more zoomed-out view somehow :-)
13:33:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: And there's a very realistic day/night cycle.
13:34:34 <Deewiant> I don't suppose I can change the camera pitch in any way?
13:34:55 <fizzie> I don't think so, no. But you can drag around the map with the left mouse button.
13:35:03 <fizzie> It'll snap back to the fixed position when you let go. :p
13:36:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well fixed those issues
13:36:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and you can add a command line flag "-q 1" to get a lot nicer heightmap. :p
13:36:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: I forget the mechanics: what can player A do if B has the star?
13:37:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can try to find a horseshoe and take that to one of the starting points before B gets the star there.
13:37:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: In the sometimes-used house rules, you can also attack the other player, but that's highly nonstandard.
13:37:39 <Deewiant> Why isn't the nicer heightmap on by default
13:38:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: It wasn't fast enough on the school SGI O2 workstations this was demoed on. :p
13:39:10 <fizzie> I had totally forgotten that -q flag, I just found it from the project report now.
13:39:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, source link (or 64-bit linux binary)
13:39:31 <fizzie> The default is "-q 4" which uses every fourth point from the heightmap.
13:39:38 <Deewiant> Good luck playing it with all the text being in Finnish
13:40:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't they use gettext()?
13:40:19 <Deewiant> Although there isn't that much text
13:40:24 <fizzie> Heh, right. There's not *that* much text, though; I can give you a translation.
13:40:28 <fizzie> It's not localized, no.
13:40:45 <AnMaster> translation would be nice yeah
13:40:45 <fizzie> Just using gettext wouldn't help much without, you know, the localizations.
13:41:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.tar.gz might be a 64-bit linux binary; it needs that "data" subdir and it needs to be accessible so that fopen("data/foo") works. There was a bit of a deadline problem to do anything nice.
13:42:35 <fizzie> On the positive side, you can edit the .obj files in the data subdir to provide all new models.
13:45:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, updated pong btw to fix those issues: http://omploader.org/vMno4OQ/pong-win32.tar.gz
13:45:24 <fizzie> The heightmap is bona fide real data, by the way. (The ground colors are not.)
13:47:25 <fizzie> "(Cannot contact the database server: Can't connect to MySQL server on '10.0.6.32' (4) (10.0.6.32))" I don't think I've gotten that from Wikipedia earlier.
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13:52:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what about translations + linux binary or source?
13:53:11 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, something wrong with your computer?
13:53:37 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, you have one at work iirc?
13:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, so get a new one
13:53:59 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, what about the centos box at work?
13:54:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: I already linked to a Linux binary. Let me see about translations.
13:54:23 <AnMaster> ais523_unidentif, I thought it dual-booted?
14:05:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/translate.txt has probably most of the strings in the game translated.
14:07:23 <fizzie> ais523_unidentif: Long story, are you sure you don't want to just check today's clog?
14:07:43 <ais523_unidentif> I'll check it later; not particularly easy for me to do so now
14:07:43 <fizzie> ais523_unidentif: We've been having Deewiant work as a test monkey for windows binaries.
14:08:38 <fizzie> To summarize: it's a OpenGL version of a Finnish board game I (partially) did for the 3d graphics programming course a couple of years back.
14:08:45 <fizzie> (In 2005, apparently.)
14:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, someone can get stuck at the Canary islands
14:10:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: That is a well-known bug.
14:10:17 <AnMaster> shouldn't you be allowed to move two spaces
14:10:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's just the heretical new rules.
14:10:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: We don't roll that way.
14:10:46 <Deewiant> Do you even lose the game for that player if he gets stuck? :-)
14:10:53 <AnMaster> NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidiactl (Permission denied).
14:10:53 <AnMaster> freeglut (./afrikka): Unable to create direct context rendering for window 'Afrikan t�hti'
14:11:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm not sure. There's a "the game is now unwinnable" message in the sources.
14:11:55 <Deewiant> That happens if the star is there, so at least you check for that much
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14:16:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: I can't really understand my logic here any more. I think I only toggle the unwinnable flag if the star has been found, a "thief" coin is uncovered, none of the remaining players have a star/horseshoe, and there are no horseshoes left in the map.
14:16:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: So I think I don't check for the Canary Islands special cases.
14:16:56 <Deewiant> Wait, you keep track of horseshoes that have been found before the star?
14:17:07 <Deewiant> Or no, that was in no way implied by what you said.
14:18:18 <fizzie> The rules were written based on the physical copy of the game I have here, and that's from some time in the 1980s, and doesn't contain the special rule anyway.
14:18:46 <fizzie> In practice we don't even the skip the turns for the player who's stuck on the island; we simply ridicule him/her every time it's his/her turn.
14:18:47 <Deewiant> The original rules certainly don't account for the special case :-)
14:19:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: But can that player do anything?
14:19:19 -!- Wh1teWolf has left (?).
14:19:34 <fizzie> If on the larger island, yes, you can walk from one end to another repeatedly. On the smaller island, not much.
14:20:30 <Gregor> AnMaster: Looks like an upgrade broke it.
14:20:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: The game is at least clever enough to handle that case: if you have no options you can do, it always adds an "end turn" option to the sidebar.
14:20:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, good I need bf_txtgen NAO!
14:21:06 <fizzie> You can run the same bit of Java locally, you know.
14:21:10 -!- EgoBot has joined.
14:21:27 <immibis> fizzie: Isn't egobot written in C?
14:21:45 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.++++++++.++++++.---.++++++++.<-.>--------.---..-------.>++.>. [600]
14:21:57 <EgoBot> 186 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. [453]
14:22:31 <oklopol> !bf_txtgen Hepskukkuu maailmainen!
14:22:34 <EgoBot> 182 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.+++.<-----.>++.<..>..>++++.<--------.<<----..>--.>-.+.<<.>.>+.<----.>.>+.-----------------------. [471]
14:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does that mean?
14:22:59 <fizzie> immibis: I am under the impression that bf_txtgen is the same thing as that textgen.java from somewhere. Being written in C doesn't mean you couldn't run other processes.
14:23:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh "literal" as in "funnily broken"?
14:23:35 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----.
14:23:46 <immibis> fixxie: you're right, from looking at the source: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.java
14:23:47 <AnMaster> why the extra dot there fizzie ^
14:23:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the newline.
14:24:07 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.
14:25:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that really correct translation?
14:25:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it should have been "X won" basically
14:25:54 <fizzie> "X is a winner!" would possibly be more literal.
14:26:02 <fizzie> But "A winner is X" is the meme.
14:26:16 <Deewiant> But that's more "The winner is X"
14:26:18 * AnMaster wonders if you could insert the strings in the binary
14:26:51 <fizzie> Some of them are in multiple pieces.
14:27:01 <fizzie> You could get close, I guess.
14:27:45 <fizzie> Space-padding where needed, abbreviating the English also.
14:28:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't \0 padding work?
14:28:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, or do you depend on fixed length?
14:28:38 <fizzie> I guess in most cases it would work right.
14:28:45 <AnMaster> │ ...... db "Out of memory when allocating mesh vertex array (%s).\0" │
14:28:54 <AnMaster> you do have English strings there
14:29:02 <fizzie> All the error messages are in English, yes.
14:29:30 <fizzie> There are some "Impossible: X" ones too.
14:30:29 <fizzie> The terrain.map file in the data directory should be human-readable text too, if you want to customize it.
14:30:59 <fizzie> (Some of the node numbers do have special rules attached, though.)
14:33:26 <Deewiant> You didn't feel like distinguishing them? :-P
14:33:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: The .map file format parsing and such were done in a relatively early stage of the project.
14:33:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "game logic" part was done with the deadline looming.
14:34:31 <fizzie> I'd show you the commit frequency from a "svn log", but "svn: Could not open the requested SVN filesystem"
14:34:35 <fizzie> The repository must've moved.
14:35:21 <Deewiant> This is why you should always use a DVCS locally when using a school's CCVS system :-)
14:35:44 <fizzie> Actually I used a local CCVS system, it's just that the C has moved. :p
14:37:29 <fizzie> I've switched to a more DVCS-oriented way nowadays, but that was back then.
14:38:58 <fizzie> Probably more like "center" in the "has moved" part.
14:40:36 <fizzie> I found quite a pile of SVN repositories, but none of them seem to contain that particular project.
14:41:39 <fizzie> Hey, there it probably is.
14:44:36 <fizzie> There actually aren't so many separate commits that it'd look impressive; but you can deduce something from the fact that the last commit was made at 2006-04-06 05:43:19, and that is indeed in the local time zone. As I remember it, we had the "return the project and demonstrate it to the course assistant" session booked for 2006-04-06 morning.
14:52:34 <fizzie> I was quasi-seriously considering "zzie.fi", actually.
14:53:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ireland, like probably a majority of the ccTLDs, only sells domains if you live or have an office or have at least something to do with the country in question.
14:53:39 <fizzie> At least officially. Don't know what the actual practice is, but that's the regulation.
14:54:07 <uorygl> Maybe I'll have to ask my Albanian friend to register it for me.
14:57:29 <fizzie> The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CcTLD list claims to have a * for all that allow foreign registration, though that's probably not kept religiously up-to-date.
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15:00:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, untranslated string: "kierroksella uudelleen"?
15:01:45 <fizzie> Yes. It's the second half of "Yritä seuraavalla".
15:01:59 <fizzie> "Yritä seuraavalla kierroksella uudelleen" => "Try again on the next round" or some-such.
15:07:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, you meant you didn't get things done well before the deadline?
15:07:34 <AnMaster> I always make sure to be done at least a week before
15:07:56 <AnMaster> (assuming I as notified before a week in advance)
15:09:08 <fizzie> I am bad with deadlines and scheduling things.
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15:34:00 <fizzie> Erm, usually those flash-based "navigate our shop with this panorama picture" things do proper perspective correction, but this one somehow looks rather freaky, especially if you navigate around it: http://www.korkeavuorenkatu.fi/fin/panorama/faberart.htm
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15:36:43 <fizzie> I guess it's just that it needs to be zoomed in so that the "natural" field-of-view of the picture matches at least a bit the field-of-view caused by the monitor.
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15:53:00 <oerjan> who is this hubert anyway
15:54:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait, haven't we done that already today?
15:54:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: didn't we already men
15:55:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, you need to mark it by ... or something
15:55:49 <oerjan> confusing you is the meaning of the universe, after all
15:57:59 <oerjan> the universe likes shooting fish in barrels, clearly
15:58:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, more like finishing barrels in shootguns
15:58:52 * oerjan thinks he broke AnMaster
15:59:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong. Only dried frog
16:00:58 * oerjan notes that all but one google hit for "but tell me hubert" is for this channel
16:01:22 -!- AnMaster has set topic: hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:01:40 <oerjan> and the final one is harry potter fanfic :D
16:02:08 <oerjan> with sex in it, if the introductory warning is to be believed
16:02:32 <oerjan> "The first in an irregular series of stories."
16:02:48 <oerjan> are we looking at shakespeare's work here?
16:02:50 * AnMaster goes back listening to Swedish jazz
16:03:05 <AnMaster> some compilation of Swedish jazz
16:03:10 <coppro> well done, you've successfully described all internet fiction (fan fic or otherwise)
16:03:40 <coppro> "an irregular series of stories"
16:03:49 <oerjan> that's a quote from the page, actually
16:04:10 <AnMaster> coppro, how comes you know that?
16:04:29 <coppro> all logic is based on generalization
16:04:58 <coppro> all internet fiction I've seen can be described as an irregular series of stories -> all internet fiction can be described as an irregular series of stories
16:05:17 <AnMaster> coppro, that implication is not true.
16:05:31 <coppro> all logic works like that, because some logic works like that
16:05:37 <AnMaster> coppro, well known example: All swans I have seen are white
16:05:51 <AnMaster> except there are black swans in Australia
16:05:53 <coppro> (note: I know this is not true. It's fun to be stupid, though)
16:06:15 <AnMaster> coppro, ehird hasn't realised this yet
16:06:49 <oerjan> coppro: so you are not aware of the distinction between deduction and induction?
16:07:12 <coppro> It's just that it's entertaining to pretend not to
16:07:28 <coppro> (the distinction, of course, is that induction isn't logic)
16:08:15 <AnMaster> um what? afaik induction proofs work over countable sets?
16:09:12 <coppro> mathematical induction is deductive reasoning
16:09:35 <Slereah> While regular induction is just "it has worked so far, so it must always be the case"
16:09:38 <coppro> ok, I missed the sarcasm
16:09:52 <AnMaster> coppro, that's because it wasn't there ;P
16:10:23 <coppro> by being really stupid
16:10:46 <coppro> by making a change to the lexer that I apparently did wrong
16:10:54 <fizzie> Alarums. Enter Iohn and Hubert.
16:10:54 <fizzie> Iohn. How goes the day with vs? oh tell me Hubert
16:10:54 <fizzie> -- MR. William SHAKESPEARES Comedies, Histories & Tragedies, Published according to the True Original Copies London Printed by Ifaac Iaggard, and Ed, Bount. 1623
16:10:58 <AnMaster> coppro, are you working on clang?
16:11:01 <fizzie> That's where Hubert got to our topic.
16:12:15 <fizzie> Wait, there's no comma there.
16:13:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: what coppro and AnMaster said. also there is _transfinite_ induction which doesn't require countability
16:13:36 <fizzie> In fact it is more likely from this actual, later copy of the King John play:
16:13:37 <fizzie> [Alarums. Enter KING JOHN and HUBERT.]
16:13:37 <fizzie> KING JOHN. How goes the day with us? O, tell me, Hubert.
16:14:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, there was no "but" there: but tell me, hubert
16:14:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: well ordered (or even well founded) set instead of just naturals.
16:14:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why did shakespear like hubert so much
16:14:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, fungot does mix that stuff up.
16:14:33 <fungot> fizzie: ah oh you're breaking up really really bad it was based on a true life story or something yeah
16:14:39 <oerjan> you can use it to prove things about all ordinals, say
16:14:52 <oerjan> no, reals are totally ordered, not well ordered
16:15:23 <oerjan> well ordering means every non-empty set has a smallest element
16:15:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the rationals are countable. you can map them to the integer by using the diagonal
16:15:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: um this is irrelevent to what i said
16:17:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, so example of uncountable but well ordered set
16:17:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Irreverent to what you said.
16:18:32 <oerjan> the axiom of choice allows you to give a well ordering for any set, no matter how big. Zermelo's proof. However it needs to have no connection to any usual ordering.
16:19:02 <oerjan> aleph-1, being the first uncountable ordinal, is the smallest example
16:19:29 <oerjan> as a von Neumann ordinal it is the set of all countable ordinals
16:19:53 <mycroftiv> i still can't decide if I believe the axiom of choice is true or not, and if it has consequences for physical reality either way
16:20:38 <oerjan> that's cardinal. but that presentation gives a well ordering of it.
16:22:28 <oerjan> it's name as an ordinal is omega-1
16:23:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number explains everything i said about this so far, i think
16:24:35 <AnMaster> I think I need to sleep a bit before understanding this
16:33:16 <uorygl> The axiom of choice definitely has no consequences for physical reality.
16:33:57 <uorygl> ZFC contains models of ZF-C and vice versa, doesn't it?
16:34:30 <oerjan> well not strictly a model
16:34:32 <coppro> how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath?
16:34:50 <oerjan> but an embedding of sorts?
16:35:00 <uorygl> What's a non-strict model and what's non-strict about it?
16:35:21 <oerjan> if you had a model in the technical sense you would have a proof of its consistence, violating godel incompleteness
16:36:22 <uorygl> So assuming that ZF is consistent, are there models?
16:36:38 <oerjan> so it's more like: given a model of one, you can construct a model of the other
16:37:31 <oerjan> godel's completeness theorem says essentially that, yes, iirc
16:37:52 <oerjan> of course this requires working inside ZF to start with...
16:39:35 <oerjan> but i'm not an expert on this
16:40:53 <uorygl> Yeah, I guess the completeness theorem does pretty much say that.
16:45:25 <oerjan> i _think_ cohen's forcing used for one direction of the proof requires working with ZF as the metatheory, but i haven't exactly read the proof.
16:45:48 <oerjan> because forcing requires some rather heavy set theory stuff
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17:09:07 <quantumEd> "consequences for physical reality." ? because reality is finite or what
17:09:29 <quantumEd> by reality I guess you mean sockdrawers
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18:13:48 <mycroftiv> Well, assuming I'm remembering this stuff correctly, doesn't the Banach-Tarski paradox depend on the axiom of choice being true? Obviously nobody is actually going to be able to attempt that kind of disassembly/reassembly physically, but I think that shows AOC isnt devoid of applicability to physical theory
18:14:21 <quantumEd> mycroftiv, it's a conseqence of axiom of choice
18:14:34 <quantumEd> it doesn't matter whether choice is true or not (whatever that means)
18:16:30 <mycroftiv> I just meant 'true' as a sloppy way of expressing whether or not that axiom is included in a formal system
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18:27:07 <mycroftiv> ok, here's a link that seems to make the case that modern physics already presumes the axiom of choice to be true:
18:27:15 <mycroftiv> http://books.google.com/books?id=4paH9zuYzmgC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=axiom+of+choice+and+physics&source=bl&ots=72CmYhfqCB&sig=C-97pzDcvE5Cok64aKMxvsmLUao&hl=en&ei=b04kS-2IA9TDlAeU9YH2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=axiom%20of%20choice%20and%20physics&f=false
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18:30:23 <quantumEd> I don't really understand that stuff :/
18:30:36 <quantumEd> I think that I don't know physics well enough to get it, maybe
18:34:36 <mycroftiv> well, the details arent that important, the outline of the argument is that von neumann's analysis of quantum superposition made use of math that depends on axiom of choice - as to whether that really supports the somewhat strong conclusion he draws, i dunno
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18:35:25 <mycroftiv> im not actually arguing for/against AOC having any physical relevance, but I think its an interesting question that cant just be dismissed, if you take the relationship between reality/physics/math seriously
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21:48:42 <uorygl> mycroftiv: on the contrary, the Banach-Tarski paradox has no application to physics, either.
21:51:13 <mycroftiv> uorygl: I agree with that, but after trying to research the question a bit I would say that it seems pretty clear the mathematics of modern physics makes use of proofs dependent on axiom of choice in some places
21:51:35 <mycroftiv> so it seems from my attempting to understand the issues (subsequent to earlier semirandom musings) that there really is a pretty direct connection
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21:52:58 <uorygl> Well, I'm quite skeptical.
21:53:32 <uorygl> I mean, the axiom of choice doesn't even talk about real things. It talks about things known as "ZFC sets".
21:53:40 <oerjan> mathematical analysis gets prettier when you use the axiom of choice
21:54:20 <uorygl> I'm pretty sure it can be stated as simply placing a restriction on what things are ZFC sets and what things aren't.
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21:57:54 <mycroftiv> Well, the ontological question of whether or not the mathematical rules we use to describe reality are actually embedded within reality in some way, or are directly synonymous with it, or are only related via the mechanism of essentially subjective mentation is still pretty vexatious
21:58:42 <HackEgo> * annoying: causing irritation or annoyance; "tapping an annoying rhythm on his glass with his fork"; "aircraft noise is particularly bothersome ... \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary. ...
21:59:50 <HackEgo> * thinking: the process of using your mind to consider something carefully; "thinking always made him frown"; "she paused for thought" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Mental activity. The process of thinking
22:00:30 <uorygl> You're asking whether the definition of a man-made concept is embedded in reality in some way.
22:01:01 <uorygl> Does which color means "go" have any bearing on physics? No, definitely not.
22:01:22 <mycroftiv> its not that simple, the external universe is the cause of all our thoughts, and we are not in any way separate from the universe
22:01:52 <mycroftiv> if materialism is basically correct, which I think it is, human ideas are simply another observable objective physical phenomenon in the universe, caused via its action and bearing the imprint of its structure
22:02:20 <mycroftiv> so the idea that human thought structure is in some way independent of reality is actually profoundly antiscientific, in my opinion
22:02:38 <uorygl> Yes, but "bearing the imprint" doesn't mean that fundamental truths will embed themselves in the definitions that we choose in order to simplify things.
22:02:59 <uorygl> The axiom of choice is part of a definition that we choose in order to simplify things.
22:03:12 <mycroftiv> To me it's an open question of how exactly our mathematical physics relates to reality - to what extent it is 'really out there'/
22:03:34 <mycroftiv> when i have two oranges in one hand and two oranges in another hand and then i put them on the table and count 4 oranges, it seems pretty objective
22:03:51 <mycroftiv> but reading cosmology and the like, it can be harder to have that same feeling
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22:05:23 <mycroftiv> But I guess if I believe the facts of arithmetic, and its axioms, can be 'out there' in the universe, then the axiom of choice could be implicate in the structure of how things work as well
22:05:51 <uorygl> That's because "two" and "four" have definitions that are strongly linked with physics; we can observe things whose behavior corresponds to the behavior of the integers.
22:06:10 <mycroftiv> I guess the example of riemannian geometry being created back when everyone thought space was flat and Newtonian is an example I could cite
22:06:36 <uorygl> I suppose that if we observed things that behaved like ZF sets, it would make sense to talk about whether the axiom of choice is true for the universe or not.
22:07:27 <uorygl> Hmm, I think that's a neat analogy. Given that the universe's geometry is not Euclidean, would you say that Euclid's fifth postulate is not true in this universe?
22:08:59 <mycroftiv> If the large scale structure of space time is curved, then you can either have multiple or zero parallels relative to a given line from a given point
22:09:19 <uorygl> What if we discovered some other area of physics that *does* follow the laws of Euclidean geometry?
22:09:44 <mycroftiv> well thats the problem, quantum theory basically does, and thats why we cant fit it with GR, right?
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22:11:09 <mycroftiv> we dont know how to mathematically reformulate QFT in gravitationally curved spacetime in a consistent way
22:11:29 <uorygl> Well, obviously, neither QM nor GR is a complete theory of stuff. As far as this part of geometry goes, GR seems to describe it better.
22:11:32 <oerjan> i'm not sure it's the non-euclideanness as much as the fact the geometry is changing with time...
22:12:49 <mycroftiv> uorygl: yeah, when it comes to drawing parallel lines to infinity, that is definitely on the scale of the cosmological ;)
22:19:18 <uorygl> You still haven't really answered my question, though.
22:23:52 <uorygl> What if we . . . of Euclidean geometry?
22:24:45 <mycroftiv> Well, I guess I have the belief that there is an actual set of true physical laws that are consisent across the observable universe and are expressible in mathematical form, and they will be all in agreement
22:25:34 <mycroftiv> So I would think that having spacetime be treated as Euclidean when modeling one process and non-Euclidean in another model would be a sign that one or another model was incomplete
22:26:43 <oerjan> it's leprechauns all the way down
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23:10:07 <uorygl> Wait, hang on a moment.
23:10:27 <uorygl> I would agree with you if I were talking about something like QM and GR.
23:11:08 <uorygl> But suppose that we actually do manage to find a complete set of laws for the universe.
23:12:35 <uorygl> And one part of these laws (e.g. its description of spacetime) consisted of a non-Euclidean geometry, and another (e.g. its description of some spooky thing we haven't discovered yet) consisted of Euclidean geometry.
23:22:34 <oerjan> yeah lovecraft had it backwards
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