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05:26:57 <hugo_dc> hi esoteric people :D
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15:24:14 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m6c8cd789 - draft of my (eso-ish)language
15:24:21 <asiekierka> what should i chane in your opinion
15:24:34 <asiekierka> i know JGR can be replaced with JL and JE
15:24:37 <asiekierka> so one spot is free for sure
15:25:14 <ais523> it looks like an asm
15:26:23 <asiekierka> it is one
15:26:28 <asiekierka> i just want to be the "middleman" between RISC and CISC
15:26:51 <asiekierka> i think i'll add DIV and MOD
15:27:57 <asiekierka> so
15:27:59 <asiekierka> any ideas
15:29:46 <asiekierka> ok
15:29:50 <asiekierka> the limit will be 20 commands
15:29:52 <asiekierka> adding DIV and MOD
15:29:53 <asiekierka> what else
15:31:22 <asiekierka> ais523?
15:41:24 <MizardX> If you have DIV and MOD, you need MUL
15:44:05 <MizardX> meta statements: PSH, POP, CAL, RET (possible with current commands, but makes it easier to implement methods)
15:44:49 <MizardX> memory-mapped registers: instruction pointer, stack pointer
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15:45:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwc
15:45:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me, hours ago
15:46:29 * oerjan considers changing to checking iwc before logging on iwc
15:46:33 <oerjan> er,
15:46:42 <oerjan> s/iwc$/irc/
15:48:06 <AnMaster> heh
15:50:16 * oerjan chuckles slightly at today's Lightning Made of Owls
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15:54:07 <oerjan> today's Square Root of Minus Garfield is rather ... meta
15:56:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: balrog, death
16:01:43 <oerjan> didn't cthulhu chair an organization of them at one point...
16:04:40 <asiekierka> hmm...
16:05:00 <asiekierka> i consider MUL, CAL (EXT will be used as a RET)
16:05:02 <asiekierka> so i have 20
16:06:38 <pikhq> Argh. Why did my first final have to be the earliest possible final?
16:06:47 <pikhq> I had almost forgotten that there was an 8 AM.
16:06:50 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m55d244ff
16:06:56 <asiekierka> here, MizardX
16:07:12 <asiekierka> about IP, i will consider it
16:09:16 <oerjan> 8 AM, the forgotten horror of the ancients
16:09:29 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m68f02f74
16:11:06 <pikhq> oerjan: The last time I was up that early, I had stayed up for it.
16:11:09 <pikhq> ... A year ago.
16:11:15 <pikhq> *shudder*
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17:10:18 <asiekierka> i implemented it
17:10:19 <asiekierka> omg
17:11:22 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_beta.zip
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19:01:26 <uorygl> Hi, asiekierka?
19:01:27 <uorygl> Er.
19:01:29 <uorygl> Hi, asiekierka!
19:03:38 <asie[afk]> hi
19:03:45 <asie[afk]> i'm stumped
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19:05:36 <asiekierka>  http://pastebin.com/m1613d8bd - works the first time, then it ignores the keyboard, then it works, etc...
19:12:45 -!- quantumEd has joined.
19:13:36 <quantumEd> is restricted brainfuck still turing complete?   restriction is to interpret ] as } assert(p == oldP);
19:13:46 <quantumEd> the idea is that loops must end up where you started from
19:13:57 <uorygl> Hmm...
19:14:06 <uorygl> I believe so, yes.
19:14:33 <uorygl> I mean, I think there are universal Turing machines that use only five cells.
19:15:03 <lament> quantumEd: i doubt it's been proven by anyone
19:15:06 <lament> quantumEd: so, you should do it!
19:17:56 <lament> quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not
19:18:13 <asiekierka> Finally, I finished my "eso"lang
19:18:16 <quantumEd> I always think of it unbounded but I guess that's not really correct...
19:18:17 <asiekierka> and the interpreter is not buggy
19:18:21 <quantumEd> btw what's eso about it
19:18:27 <asiekierka> that's why it's "eso"
19:18:29 <quantumEd> it looked totally plain to me
19:18:32 <asiekierka> only the fact that it has 20 commands
19:18:48 <lament> quantumEd: some people like bounded, some like unbounded, and the properties of the two wrt turing-completeness are quite different
19:19:28 <uorygl> Now, here's a neat idea: Brainfuck intros. Write a program in 4,096 BF instructions or less that runs on a tape with exactly 30,000 one-byte cells. It must output, in alternation, 307200 bytes interpreted as 256-color pixels on a 640x480 canvas, and 735 bytes interpreted as 8-bit 44100 Hz mono samples of a sixtieth of a second of audio.
19:20:52 <asiekierka> LOL
19:21:08 <asiekierka> also
19:21:08 <asiekierka> why not 160x200
19:21:11 <asiekierka> that'd be better
19:21:48 <uorygl> Are you sure?
19:22:07 <asiekierka> yes
19:22:10 <asiekierka> that's only 32000 bytes
19:22:11 <asiekierka> :P
19:22:16 <asiekierka> and why 4096
19:22:20 <asiekierka> for BF you'd need 16384
19:22:28 <asiekierka> actually someone DID write an intro in BF
19:22:29 <asiekierka> using text
19:22:32 <asiekierka> at 102x50
19:22:35 <asiekierka> it was 9 kb i thin
19:22:36 <asiekierka> k
19:22:37 <asiekierka> but EPOCH
19:22:41 <lament> clearly the intro shouldn't be in brainfuck
19:22:55 <lament> it should be in machine code, containing a brainfuck interpreter and its program
19:23:19 <asiekierka> My friend did that
19:23:27 <asiekierka> a ~200-byte x86 BF interpreter
19:23:27 <asiekierka> that fits in a bootsector
19:23:32 <asiekierka> reads from bootdisk
19:23:36 <quantumEd> A lot of folks put game of life into demos
19:23:41 <asiekierka> game of lie
19:23:41 <quantumEd> that's sort of similar ?
19:23:44 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_rc1.zip - Final, though might still have a bug or two, I seriously doubt it.
19:24:28 <uorygl> Nope, 4,096 BF instructions.
19:24:38 <uorygl> 640x480 so it can look fancy. It doesn't need to look fancy, but it can.
19:25:06 <uorygl> If you want it to look non-fancy, use a couple extra instructions to simulate a lower resolution.
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21:11:13 <ais523> ugh, the Ubuntu auto-startup-disk-creator thing doesn't really work
21:11:18 <ais523> I had to reformat the USB drive by hand
21:11:24 <ais523> and reformatting drives always gets me scared
21:27:33 <fizzie> uorygl: There's a thing called bfvga.
21:27:42 <fizzie> uorygl: It maps the brainfuck tape to the 320x200 VGA screen memory.
21:27:53 <fizzie> uorygl: It was used in some less-than-4k intro competition.
21:28:09 <fizzie> uorygl: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060
21:28:40 <fizzie> That's not exactly the same thing, but related.
21:29:00 <ais523> you'd want to map every second cell, rather than the whole thing, to give calculation space
21:29:18 <ais523> (I suppose with some drivers, you could just have the tape actually in video memory...)
21:29:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's a DOS thing and it does keep the tape actually in video memory.
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22:07:22 <ais523_new> am I online?
22:07:28 <ais523> yay, I'm online!
22:07:32 <ais523> thanks Ubuntu driver person
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22:49:30 <SimonRC> ais523: what driveryness did they help you with?
22:49:51 <ais523> realtek rtl8191se
22:50:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:50:16 <ais523> I go look at the relevant bug report, and find that there's a driver already written and just waiting to be approved
22:50:23 * Sgeo wiped out hours of someone else's work on a term project due today
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23:04:25 <SimonRC> this may sound silly, but is there a debian program that lists all nearby wireless networks, like windows has?
23:06:03 <ais523> NetworkManager
23:08:16 <SimonRC> the systray icon?
23:08:26 <ais523> yes
23:08:32 <ais523> left-click and you should get a list
23:08:35 <SimonRC> currently it says I am not connected to any network, even though I am on a LAN
23:08:44 <ais523> weird...
23:08:57 <SimonRC> and it lists no wireless networks, even though there is on in the house
23:09:12 <SimonRC> for the wired network it says "device not managed"
23:09:32 <ais523> ah, not managed means it's being connected some other way
23:10:57 <SimonRC> like how?
23:11:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:11:22 <SimonRC> some people seem to suggest changing the config fil in /etc
23:11:51 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
23:11:53 <ehirdiphone> http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/12/13/nobel-speak/
23:11:58 <oerjan> O_o
23:12:02 <oerjan> ehirdiphone!
23:12:06 <ehirdiphone> B
23:12:19 <ehirdiphone> HAHA I AM FIRE hello
23:12:24 <oerjan> i was worried when you didn't show up on the weekend
23:12:34 * Sgeo is considering an Android phone
23:12:40 <ehirdiphone> Loooooooooooooong story.
23:12:49 <oerjan> i bet
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23:13:51 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: The iPhone, despite numerous flaws, is superior in almost all the ways that matter. It feels like a seamless *interface*, not a gadget.
23:14:04 <ehirdiphone> Alas, Android cannot compare.
23:14:42 <ehirdiphone> Note that I find the App Store policies abhorrent to the highest degree.
23:15:02 <ehirdiphone> The iPhone is just so much better it cancels out.
23:15:15 * Sgeo finds the very concept of not being allowed to uses non-App Store apps abhorrent
23:15:18 <Sgeo> *use
23:15:30 <ehirdiphone> Jailbreak it, then. But I
23:15:33 <ehirdiphone>  erm
23:15:59 <ehirdiphone> I'm serious: the iPhone is in an astronomically different league.
23:17:28 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, do you know anything about Word's autorecovery features?
23:17:35 <mycroftiv> sounds like someone is speaking from inside a Reality Distortion Field
23:17:54 <oerjan> <lament> quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not
23:18:12 <oerjan> it has too, a balanced bf program can obviously use only a fixed number of cells
23:18:16 <oerjan> *to
23:18:27 <quantumEd> balanced ?
23:18:46 <oerjan> pikhq's BFM seems relevant, it does things balanced unless you force it not to
23:19:07 <oerjan> quantumEd: equal number of >< in all loops, what you said
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23:19:36 <oerjan> *equivalent to what you said
23:20:22 <oerjan> and i recall pikhq had quite a number of macros for doing things balancedly, so he may practically have proved it already
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23:24:12 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Bandy about distortion fields all you like: the iPhone's interface really is that much more crisp—and believe me, I wish it weren't so due to the App Store mess.
23:24:28 <Sgeo> Is crispiness really that important?
23:24:39 <Sgeo> I mean, with potato chips, ok >.>
23:25:10 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: For a handheld device that must minimise fiddliness: it is everything.
23:25:15 <mycroftiv> I find that the bitterness of limited functionality lingers on after the sweetness of user interface is forgotten
23:26:01 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: What limited functionality?—are you disparaging the extreme interface simplicity?
23:26:09 <mycroftiv> but then, I find plan 9 to have an acceptable user interface and most people think using it is like being dragged pantsless across across a gravel pit
23:26:20 <oerjan> mycroftiv: i think you just summed up humanity there ;D
23:27:12 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: well, I'm a pretty hardcore freedom-to-use-as-you-wish guy, so any device I'm not root on seems to be limited functionality to me - and I wasn't really taking sides on behalf of Android, since it is 'more open' not 'open'
23:27:20 <SimonRC> well, changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf worked to display the wired network logo
23:27:37 <SimonRC> no love for the wireless though
23:27:41 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: So an ideological objection. I agree, but:
23:27:42 <Sgeo> mycroftiv, in what way in Android not open?
23:27:49 <ehirdiphone> Jailbreaking;
23:27:53 <mycroftiv> you aren't root on the device without jailbreaking it
23:27:58 <ehirdiphone> It's so good it cancels out.
23:28:14 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: Included apps aren't open, f.ex.
23:28:16 <Sgeo> How does jailbreaking work, exactly?
23:28:26 <ehirdiphone> Be less vague.
23:28:32 <mycroftiv> Sgeo: its usually based on a privilege escalation exploit against the OS kernel
23:28:46 <ehirdiphone> You plug in your phone, run a program on your computer:
23:28:52 <ehirdiphone> Fizz bing pang
23:28:56 <ehirdiphone> Broken.
23:29:44 <ehirdiphone> Reversible by resetting the phone's OS.
23:29:58 <mycroftiv> google is actually amazingly sharp at the 'its open but its not game' - youtube was telling me to download google chrome for linux - but its license agreement forbids me to copy, reverse engineer, try to access the source code...
23:30:15 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Chromium is open
23:30:25 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: but the chrome browser they wanted me to download was NOT
23:30:31 <ehirdiphone> Chrome = Chromium + branding.
23:30:32 <mycroftiv> i understand the scenario exactly
23:30:40 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Firefox is the same. M
23:30:52 <Sgeo> No. Chrome = Chromium + branding + RLZ
23:30:58 <ehirdiphone> Nobody else can build and distribute Firefox.
23:31:03 <mycroftiv> no, it is not the same, for using firefox I did not have to agree to the same restrictive licensing terms as chrome asked me to
23:31:16 <ehirdiphone> They must use different branding.
23:31:31 <mycroftiv> trust me, the chrome download license agreement is a hell of a lot different than mozilla license crap, which is still annoying, im an ICEWEASEL user
23:31:40 <ehirdiphone> W
23:32:06 <ehirdiphone> Wonderful, zealotry (ideology without relevant effect).
23:32:23 <mycroftiv> its not zealotry, its doing what the lawyers said they had to
23:32:44 <ehirdiphone> Fight tha powah.
23:32:46 <mycroftiv> if debian wanted to be able to patch firefox independently of mozilla and distribute that, they didnt have the legal choice to call it firefox
23:33:05 <mycroftiv> so, I fail to see any zealotry whatsoever
23:33:11 <ehirdiphone> I was not referencing that.
23:33:36 <mycroftiv> ok, i dereferenced the pointer wrong, fix the stack
23:33:59 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, too much typing effort for iPhone usage. One thing no phone is good at is long typing.
23:34:17 <mycroftiv> tell me what *zealotry ==
23:34:33 <ehirdiphone> ^^^^
23:37:42 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, let's just abolish copyright. There, debate ended with my own extremist position.
23:37:54 <mycroftiv> im fine with that solution
23:38:02 <mycroftiv> doesnt seem extremist to me
23:38:14 <ehirdiphone> Also patents, EULAs.
23:39:02 <mycroftiv> yup, i think the overall consequences of that would actually be stimulative to the economy, despite a lot of short term disruption
23:39:47 <SimonRC> WOAH!
23:39:51 <SimonRC> suddenly, it all works
23:39:59 <ehirdiphone> BOOM
23:40:08 <uorygl> Hmm, I like the idea of abolishing EULAs.
23:40:11 <oerjan> SimonRC: oh no, we're doomed!
23:40:18 <SimonRC> after changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf (may or may not have made a difference)...
23:40:21 <mycroftiv> although, for mechanical processes and inventions, there is an argument that patents actually *encourage* sharing of information, because without patents, there is a very high incentive to keep inventions secret and simply use them for competitive advantage
23:40:23 <SimonRC> the magic command is:  sudo iw dev wlan0 scan
23:40:36 <SimonRC> suddenly, I can see all these networks
23:40:42 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: They are already legally dubious.
23:40:58 * SimonRC tries going wireless-only
23:41:01 <uorygl> If you want to take some sort of platonic rationality-assuming mathematical perspectives, having EULAs is equivalent to not having EULAs, because companies can just make you sign a contract before ever handing over the software.
23:41:05 <mycroftiv> just upheld in the apple/psystart case though
23:41:11 <uorygl> s/s//
23:41:41 <SimonRC> yay!
23:41:54 <uorygl> In practice, of course, people are more likely to buy software and then sign a EULA for the software they've already paid for than sign a contract and then have access to the software.
23:41:56 <mycroftiv> uorygl: correct, one of the big problems with totally abolishing IP law is that there would be a number of very perverse consequences, such as what you just mentioned and the decision to 'hoard' inventions rather than publishing them
23:41:56 <SimonRC> well that was easy
23:42:24 <SimonRC> now if only / wasn't on a HD that used external power, I might be aple to actually take this laptop to places
23:42:30 <SimonRC> *able
23:42:33 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Here, using my estimation of your economic beliefs to make you oppose copyright.
23:42:42 <ehirdiphone> Erm.  Let me.
23:42:43 <uorygl> Hoarding inventions is such a cute idea.
23:42:45 <SimonRC> and the battery management was a bit better I supposed
23:42:48 <SimonRC> *suppose
23:43:08 <SimonRC> the point of patents was to stop trade secrets
23:44:03 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Copyright = government granted monopoly on the copying of pieces of information, which cannot be created or destroed per se.
23:44:07 <mycroftiv> intellectual property law with sane boundaries and time limits was intended to serve as an incentive on *behalf* of the open publication of information
23:44:17 <ehirdiphone> *destroyed
23:44:28 <uorygl> By "per se", do you mean "by itself"?
23:44:31 * Sgeo is in a patent
23:44:36 <uorygl> If not, use a different phrase, because that's what "per se" means.
23:44:59 <Sgeo> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4961476/description.html
23:44:59 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Oh, shut up, prescriptivist.
23:45:38 <uorygl> I can't tell what you mean by "per se".
23:46:10 <ehirdiphone> Nothing, really. You can't create or destroy abstract information. It's not physical.
23:46:21 * uorygl nods.
23:46:39 <mycroftiv> i suspect right now if we elimated all copy protection for software, for instance, the effect would be to make a lot of current proprietary software distributors to switch over to an entirely remote-access client/server model where you pay for access time and you never get a copy of the software on your machine even as a binary
23:46:52 <uorygl> I wonder how you estimate my economic beliefs.
23:47:02 <SimonRC> mycroftiv: oh how very web-2.0
23:47:10 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: Yudkowsky's.
23:47:22 <uorygl> I wonder how anyone estimates Yudkowsky's economic beliefs.
23:47:26 <mycroftiv> SimonRC: i think you mean how very 60s timesharing ;)
23:47:51 <ehirdiphone> Similar to Hanson's but less... Prediction Market.
23:48:05 <ehirdiphone> Y dem capitalise iPhone?
23:48:08 <SimonRC> mycroftiv: webmail?  google docs?
23:48:23 * uorygl nods.
23:48:51 <ehirdiphone> uorygl: So, completely free capitalist Market.
23:49:17 <uorygl> I think Robin Hanson is an anarcho-capitalist.
23:49:29 <uorygl> I mean, in many ways, he is.
23:49:43 <ehirdiphone> No, he's a futarchist. Stupid idea btw. M
23:49:50 <uorygl> That too.
23:50:25 <mycroftiv> SimonRC: yeah im aware that business model is already in effect and never went away after its initial appearance decades ago, its the oldest new thing in history - and google's understanding of the gpl2 loophole where they can create as many derivative works as they want and make them available on network, not distribute them, is brilliant.
23:50:26 <ehirdiphone> Anarchocapitalism is silly.
23:50:53 <ehirdiphone> How can you enforce the monopoly on access to property?
23:51:03 <ehirdiphone> That's the backbone of capitalism.
23:52:00 <uorygl> Well, I think calling it an artificial monopoly on copying information doesn't really help me understand anything.
23:52:18 <mycroftiv> all anarchism is based on the idea that people choose to cooperate voluntarily - and follow agreed upon rules without the use of force, in general. this is widely regarded as unrealistic.
23:52:30 <ehirdiphone> You oppose government monopolies. Yes?
23:52:35 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Incorrect.
23:53:08 <uorygl> Removing monopolies results in a price that is, in some sense, fair.
23:53:24 <ehirdiphone> Anarchism's safety is in dissociation by small communities.
23:53:49 <ehirdiphone> But that can't retrieve property.
23:54:00 <ehirdiphone> Not wihout coersion.
23:54:03 <ehirdiphone> Without
23:54:09 <mycroftiv> lets not define anarchism, it reminds me of the talk page for the wikipedia anarchism article which is one of the most verbose and long running pointless arguments i have ever seen
23:54:29 <ehirdiphone> Existence without state.
23:54:42 <uorygl> Monopolies make the price move in a certain direction away from "fairness".
23:57:04 <ehirdiphone> i.e., without community sanctioned coersion.
23:57:04 <ehirdiphone> (aka violence)
23:57:04 <ehirdiphone> Note: I am not an anarchist.
23:58:01 <ehirdiphone> Talk, you  people!
23:58:01 <ehirdiphone> Boring ^
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