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00:51:09 <oerjan> a revolving door, i see
00:51:30 <immibis> no it was used to commit a murder
00:51:50 <immibis> and the blood somehow reacted with the paint to cause it to stick harder than superglue
00:52:11 <immibis> oh and there are two of them
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14:36:41 <asiekierka> of an accumulator, Brainf**k and Nybblings(my own crappy creation)
14:38:33 <asiekierka> it has cell memory, a callstack and an accumulator
14:46:18 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m190665e0 - new command
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15:47:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. remind me, read it hours ago
15:49:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you get xkcd today at all
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16:04:47 <ais523> has Freenode stopped being DDOSed yet?
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16:52:26 <ais523> anmaster|laptop: your computer just changed size?
16:54:14 <ais523> it was a notebook, now it's a laptop
16:54:32 <ais523> whereas this is somewhere between a netbook and a subnotebook
16:55:00 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, notebook = "new name for laptop since it was discovered that actually using it on your lap isn't such a good idea"
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16:55:30 <ais523> for temperature reasons
16:55:30 <ais523> although I used to use one on my lap with a duvet in between
16:55:35 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, to make the matter worse I'm using my desktop keyboard atm
16:55:53 <anmaster|laptop> just my normal bouncer isn't managing to join all channels before losing connection
16:56:03 <ais523> ugh, the DDOS is that bad?
16:56:04 <anmaster|laptop> thus an emergency connection for the important channels on my laptop
16:56:37 <ais523> I'm glad that #esoteric is one of those four
16:56:52 <ais523> I voluntarily keep myself to a maximum number of channels that fits on the screen horizontally
16:57:02 <ais523> as a method of preventing myself overchanneling
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16:57:40 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, after all I'm on something like 420 or so in total nowdays. Yes I cut down recently
16:58:40 <ais523> how many do you actually pay attention to conversations in?
16:59:31 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, 70% maybe, not all are high volume. Not all are meant for reading (stuff like log channel for network services on one network, only read it when something bad happened and you need to figure out what)
16:59:53 <anmaster|laptop> some, like #freenode I only look in when there are lots of splits
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17:09:19 <anmaster_l> split again on the other computer's connection
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17:19:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, can you now highlight me in /msg to me directly. I think it is still broken there
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17:28:17 <uorygl> I keep reading that as /iˈhərdɪfoʊn/.
17:28:34 <uorygl> (Y'know, ee-HER-dih-fone.)
17:30:50 <asiekierka> asiekierka's crappy irc server using some network apps: asciinet.ath.cx:6667
17:42:44 <uorygl> Hey, you have an ath.cx thing. Is that a DynDNS domain name?
17:46:00 <asiekierka> asciiland.ath.cx:6667 does the same though
17:57:24 * uorygl adds 500 milliseconds of delay to asiekierka's enter key.
17:59:30 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> my own <asiekierka> on beware ircd <-- so not your own then. I was asking about ircd yes
18:00:11 * AnMaster see no point in connecting really
18:02:25 <anmaster_l> ais523, why the sudden decision to get a cloak today?
18:03:56 <ais523> anmaster_l: I'd meant to for a while, just never got around to it
18:04:01 <ais523> and I was in #freenode and thought, why not?
18:06:28 <fizzie> Freenode should offer something that they could call a "dagger", so that you could get the full cloak-and-dagger experience.
18:16:49 <fizzie> I have no clue what a dagger could be, though. Something you can stab with.
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19:07:29 <uorygl> The dagger deletes an IRC channel and prevents it from being recreated.
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19:51:03 <AnMaster> ais523: what is the point of time() taking an argument that is a pointer to somewhere to also store the return value
19:51:10 <AnMaster> I mean, normally you just do time(NULL);
19:51:20 <AnMaster> but why have that argument there at all. it seems mostly useless
19:51:32 <fizzie> It used to take the argument only, wasn't it so?
19:51:37 <ais523> backwards compat, I think
19:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any standard C function to get a random floating point value?
19:54:12 <ais523> besides, it's basically impossible to randomise fairly over the range of floats
19:54:19 <ais523> because there are more of them at some places than others
19:54:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I need a reasonable random floating point value in the range [0,2*pi)
19:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, random enough to be good enough for a game of pong in this case
19:55:20 <ais523> just generate a random integer from 0 to RAND_MAX and scale
19:55:20 <AnMaster> so not for any cryptographically important things
19:55:38 <fizzie> When your needs are just "reasonable", you can take the one returned by plain old rand(), floatize, divide by RAND_MAX, and have ais523 write this advice a lot faster than I.
19:56:20 <fizzie> Maybe divide by (RAND_MAX+1) if you want that half-open interval.
19:57:04 <ais523> fizzie: be careful there, given that RAND_MAX + 1 may well overflow an integer
19:57:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, I guess it would be unfair to make it 1/RAND_MAX times more likely to go in one direction
19:57:22 <AnMaster> of course it probably wouldn't matter
19:58:08 <AnMaster> since 0 = 2pi when it comes to trigonometry
19:58:17 <AnMaster> (well no, not really, but the effect is that)
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20:04:53 <AnMaster> why on earth is the #define M_PI in math.h not part of standard C, but instead POSIX only?
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22:37:49 <uorygl> So 256ths of a circle? That's not all that strange.
22:41:31 <Gregor> That's 8-bit degrees :P
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22:42:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, indeed. But it was stored as fixpoint in a 32-bit int
22:42:43 <Gregor> OK, that's pretty weird :P
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22:46:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with it is weird that anyone uses fixpoint these days
22:47:31 <lament> so it's not a fixpoint
22:47:36 <lament> and the unit is not 1/256
22:47:46 <lament> it's whole numbers, and the unit is smaller :)
22:47:49 <Gregor> Embedded developers use fixed point.
22:49:13 <AnMaster> but this wasn't for embedded devices
22:49:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with, embedded devices would never use motif
22:49:39 <Gregor> Nobody should use motif.
22:49:56 <AnMaster> and a whole lot of other things
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23:07:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, Motif should die. As should the X11 widget library.
23:08:33 <pikhq> No, it's almost died.
23:08:52 <Gregor> Nothing in F/OSS ever dies to the point where it simply no longer exists, it's died as much as F/OSS can die.
23:08:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about historical software
23:08:53 <pikhq> The library has not been purged from every UNIX machine.
23:09:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, Motif hasn't really suffered from that. It's maintained at *least* enough so that it still builds.
23:09:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that is why motif should and most continue to exist
23:10:46 <AnMaster> so that applications can build against it
23:10:46 <pikhq> You're talking to someone who wants to nuke all of X11...
23:10:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about people who want to try mosaic for example?
23:11:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, historical software should be accessible IMO
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23:16:07 <oerjan> yes we did. i think we have officially jumped the shark.
23:16:29 <anmaster_l> oerjan, that is when it *really* takes off
23:16:47 * oerjan swats anmaster_l -----###
23:17:28 <anmaster_l> oerjan, there are complex numbers and quaternions, what about some type of extension to the real numbers that have three "components" instead?
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23:18:46 <oerjan> there are always vectors of any dimension. it is getting multiplication and division with any kind of reasonable properties tham limits it to 1,2,4,8
23:19:10 <anmaster_l> (if I'm seeing the correct pattern here)
23:19:47 <oerjan> a new property breaks down at each step. at 16 there isn't anything left, more or less.
23:20:19 <oerjan> quaternions don't have commutative multiplication, octonions don't have associative
23:20:38 <anmaster_l> and then what is the next step to drop?
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23:21:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley-Dickson_construction
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23:22:14 <oerjan> "The algebra immediately following the octonions is called the sedenions. It retains an algebraic property called power associativity, meaning that if s is a sedenion, snsm = sn + m, but loses the property of being an alternative algebra and hence cannot be a composition algebra.
23:22:20 <oerjan> The Cayley-Dickson construction can be carried on ad infinitum, at each step producing a power-associative algebra whose dimension is double that of algebra of the preceding step.
23:22:25 <anmaster_l> oh and freenode is being ddosed from what I heard
23:22:44 <oerjan> some superscripts got lost in the paste, as usual
23:22:52 <oerjan> anmaster_l: oh for real?
23:23:13 <oerjan> who did we tick off...
23:23:40 <anmaster_l> (I think that was an oerjanific pun...)
23:23:58 <oerjan> no it wasn't, it was an honest question
23:24:37 <oerjan> well i guess i couldn't expect better while we are discussing octonions...
23:25:14 <anmaster_l> oerjan, I always wondered why you can't do integer complex numbers
23:25:41 <anmaster_l> well I guess the question would be "integer on what form" now when I think more about it
23:26:03 <oerjan> you have never heard of gaussian integers?
23:26:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds strongly familiar.
23:26:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integer
23:27:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that on a+bi or r*e^(i*v)
23:28:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can make re^(iv) where r and v are integers as well
23:28:39 <AnMaster> would be another integer domain I guess?
23:29:07 <oerjan> r*e^(i*v) doesn't make sense as being anything close to integer - e^b is transcendental if b is algebraic != 0, 1
23:30:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not closed under sum. in fact it's a famous theorem that different e^(iv) are _independent_ generators as a vector space over rational numbers
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23:32:27 <oerjan> well something close to that. trying to look it up
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23:33:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem
23:34:09 <oerjan> hm actually it _doesn't_ apply to iv with v integer, since those are obviously _not_ linearly independent
23:34:38 <uorygl> Say, anyone know what a linear combination of infinitely many things is?
23:34:50 <oerjan> oh wait it does apply under the equivalent formulation (Baker) listed
23:35:22 <oerjan> uorygl: requires a notion of limit at the very least...
23:36:18 <oerjan> and if it's not absolutely convergent, then depends on summation order
23:37:32 <uorygl> Suppose your set is the set of all functions of the form f(x) = {a, if x <= b; a + (x - b), if x >= b} for real numbers a and b.
23:37:39 <uorygl> What are all the linear combinations of that?
23:38:59 <uorygl> I wonder if the degenerate cases {b = +infinity, a = k} and {b = -infinity, a - b = k} for real numbers k are linear combinations of that.
23:39:20 <oerjan> intuitively i think you can converge to anything that has derivatives between -1 and 0
23:39:54 * uorygl ponders taking inspiration from probability spaces.
23:40:18 <oerjan> oh wait second derivative
23:40:55 <oerjan> _linear_ combinations, not just sums
23:41:11 <uorygl> Consider something that's like a probability space but without the requirement that the "probability" of the whole thing be 1. I imagine there's a name for that.
23:41:16 <oerjan> ok i think you basically get everything
23:41:22 <uorygl> Some sort of distribution thingy. Not "distribution", I'm sure.
23:41:57 <oerjan> depending on exactly what kind of limit you take i suppose
23:42:16 <uorygl> Intuitively, yeah, I think the linear combinations of that set are the continuous functions.
23:43:06 <uorygl> What precisely, though, if the members of the "probability space" are S and the "probabilities" are T?
23:44:51 <oerjan> the things that are integrals of measures are known as "absolutely continuous" functions
23:45:46 <oerjan> however there is an even further generation of this, which iirc _is_ called distributions
23:46:20 <oerjan> but then things don't get to be real functions, but instead something called generalized functions
23:46:58 <uorygl> Distributions are too general. I think there's a distribution whose convolution with anything is its derivative.
23:47:43 <uorygl> Anyway, let's call that thing a measure of S by T.
23:48:03 <oerjan> oh wait absolutely continuous applies to when the measure itself is absolutely continuous
23:48:35 <uorygl> So for some basis set B, consider the set of all measures of B by the real numbers...
23:49:26 <oerjan> for (non-negative) measures, what you get by integrating them are the right continuous increasing functions
23:50:39 <oerjan> for probabilities at least, also known as cumulative distributions, but a different sense of the word distribution
23:50:44 <uorygl> And also consider the set of all measures of B by whatever vector space B is a subset of...
23:51:27 <oerjan> s/increasing/non-decreasing/
23:51:32 <uorygl> ...what's that thing that's like a tensor product but without ab * c = b * ac? :-P
23:51:55 <uorygl> I'm sure that's called the product space of vectors or something.
23:53:48 <oerjan> oh if you ignore scalar product?
23:54:33 <oerjan> = a(b * c) also dropped at both ends, i presume?
23:55:14 <oerjan> but then iiuc you only retain group properties, so tensor product _as_ groups rather than vector spaces?
23:56:10 <oerjan> hm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product doesn't list that directly
23:56:38 <oerjan> _although_ abelian groups = Z modules, so it's listed indirectly i think
23:56:52 <uorygl> Well, I'm really just talking about the Cartesian product of two vector spaces, made into a vector space the obvious way.
23:57:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product_of_modules, the example section uses a group
23:58:23 <oerjan> uorygl: um but then (ab * c) = a(b * c) = (b * ac)
23:59:06 <oerjan> the _cartesian_ product of two vector spaces is not their tensor product
23:59:28 <oerjan> that's in fact their direct sum instead