←2009-12-23 2009-12-24 2009-12-25→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:10:24 <ehird_> Happy Christmas Eve.
00:11:03 <soupdragon> Christmas doesn't exist, that's ridiculous
00:11:09 <ehird_> What.
00:11:33 <soupdragon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGopKNPqVk
00:11:48 <soupdragon> the nice thing about the internet, is that it's christmas all the time
00:12:01 <pikhq> ehird_: Happy Christmas Eve Eve.
00:12:19 <ehird_> No Flash, and not even any sound on this system. :P
00:12:26 <ehird_> (Was originally evaluating sid for server use.)
00:12:47 <soupdragon> I fixed up youtube so that it doesn't use flash
00:12:53 <ehird_> ClickToFlash does that.
00:13:01 <ehird_> But I haven't set anything up in this VM.
00:13:37 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:14:45 <ehird_> Does anyone know how to override colours in .gtkrc-2.0?
00:15:40 -!- jpc has joined.
00:27:17 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:38:16 <ehird_> Does anyone know if it would be feasible to create an LD_PRELOA
00:38:54 <pikhq> LD_PRELOAD library? Feasible, but painful as all hell.
00:38:55 <ehird_> -- stupid VM --
00:39:10 <ehird_> D doohickey, that wraps the X11 bitmap font libraries, and -
00:39:27 <ehird_> if you try to load a font starting with xft: - creates a bitmap font backed by xft
00:39:35 <ehird_> getglyph() or whatever would render "the char" with xft
00:39:43 <ehird_> blit("abc") would do the obvious
00:39:43 <ehird_> etc
00:39:53 <ehird_> in fact, you could even put it in the normal font syntax
00:40:01 <ehird_> -xft-Sans-10-*-*-(...)
00:40:26 <ehird_> that way, oldschool and minimalist tools can simply either be linked with the relevant library or LD_PRELOADed with it, and voila
00:40:30 <ehird_> xft fonts
00:40:38 <ehird_> pikhq: LD_PRELOAD libraries are pretty easy actually
00:40:55 <ehird_> they're just like a regular library, except if you want to call the function you're replacing (i.e. wrap it), you just have to dlopen/dlsym to get the original function
00:40:58 <ehird_> and call that
00:41:45 <pikhq> Anyways: Uh, I at least *think* the X11 bitmap font stuff is serverside.
00:42:00 <ehird_> Well, okay. Same difference and whatnot.
00:42:04 <ehird_> You get the basic idea.
00:43:03 <ehird_> For instance, I could make my window manager (lwm) use Xft fonts for the title bars and the hidden window list.
00:43:15 <pikhq> LD_PRELOAD won't help. Rebuilding the server, though...
00:43:20 <ehird_> And who doesn't want xedit with pretty fonts?!?!?!
00:43:24 <ehird_> pikhq: LD_PRELOAD on the server, duh.
00:43:33 <ehird_> (LD_PRELOAD: "Because I'm too fucking lazy to fight against my distro."(TM))
00:43:38 <ehird_> *fight my distro
00:43:46 <pikhq> ... LD_PRELOAD can only replace dynamically linked symbols.
00:43:59 <ehird_> pikhq: Some of the server is in a library, yah?
00:44:04 <ehird_> Presumably at least the font stuff it calls is.
00:44:50 <pikhq> Hmm. So it is. /usr/lib/libXfont.so.1
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00:45:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:45:28 <ehird_> The problem with coercing Xorg out of its traditional /usr/X11R6 home is that the rest of the system gets to deal with its rampant pollution of every filesystem resource it can access. :P
00:45:36 <ehird_> I mean, seriously. Waay too many files.
00:46:03 <pikhq> Yeah, X is a freaking behemoth.
00:47:00 <ehird_> Python subreddit header: "(birthday cake icon) Python (10K!)".
00:47:08 <ehird_> Those seven versions sure flew by quickly.
00:47:21 <ehird_> *rimshot*
00:48:15 <ehird_> Filesystem idea: rimshotfs. It serves a single file; accessing it in any way causes a rimshot sound to be played. The contents of the file is always "Ba-dum, TISH!".
00:52:06 <ehird_> Debian's xclock is fun.
00:52:17 <ehird_> It does Xft, antialiasing, colours (with blending between multiple colours for the hands crossing), etc.
00:52:43 <pikhq> Oh, the one that's been used as a testbed for everything. :)
00:53:15 <pikhq> There's also an option for it to have a circular window with an antialiased border, and the window itself being translucent, IIRC.
00:53:24 <ehird_> -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the
00:53:25 <ehird_> half hour and twice on the hour.
00:53:59 <ehird_> http://twitter.com/Big_ben_clock
00:54:36 <ehird_> face (class FaceName)
00:54:36 <ehird_> Specify the pattern for the font to be used for the digital
00:54:36 <ehird_> clock when Xrender is used. Patterns are specified using the
00:54:36 <ehird_> fontconfig face format described in the Font Names section of
00:54:36 <ehird_> fonts.conf(5).
00:55:13 -!- coppro has joined.
00:55:43 <ehird_> BUGS
00:55:43 <ehird_> Xclock believes the system clock.
00:55:48 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:55:54 <ehird_> pikhq: you know, this thing is a few steps away from reading mail.
00:56:02 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:56:15 <pikhq> It's been used for testing every single X11 feature added in the past 4 or 5 years.
00:56:19 <ehird_> And yet it still lacks an option for "don't draw a window border in -digital mode."
00:56:28 <ehird_> (i.e. I want a clock in the corner of my screen, dammit!)
00:56:29 <coppro> what thing
00:56:33 <ehird_> coppro: xclock!
00:56:43 <ehird_> It is SO MODERN.
00:56:45 <pikhq> The Xest of clocks!
00:56:48 <ehird_> Just read its man page.
00:57:09 * pikhq wonders if anyone's ever tried rewriting Xt to use nicer-looking widgets
00:57:21 <pikhq> Thereby making all the old X11 programs look nicer.
00:57:37 <ehird_> they're too pixelly. it'd fuck things up
00:57:45 <ehird_> besides, even xedit(1) has gradients nowadays
00:57:52 <coppro> Hmm... can you make it display the redundant clock?
00:57:53 <ehird_> which leaves... xman? and xman is a crock of shit
00:57:57 <ehird_> coppro: ?
00:58:03 <pikhq> Xman doesn't use Xt.
00:58:09 <ehird_> wat
00:58:30 <pikhq> Xt offers the Motif-y widgets, IIRC.
00:58:35 <ehird_> ah.
00:58:41 <coppro> http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=18&navpoint=16
00:58:45 <ehird_> honestly, most of the programs it'd help are shit anyway
00:58:47 <pikhq> Motif wraps it.
00:59:00 <ehird_> You mean... Motif isn't the culprit?
00:59:11 <pikhq> No, X is.
00:59:32 <ehird_> coppro: would be 10x better if the surrounding depictions were reflections of the actual clock
00:59:40 <ehird_> and they had surrounding ones too
00:59:42 <ehird_> i.e., a fractal clock
00:59:45 <coppro> also, rofl http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=67&navpoint=19
01:01:15 <coppro> by the way, ehird_, if you can remember our discussion way back when about intellectual property law, I've realized there is an addendum I want to add. There is no justification whatsoever that two independent inventors of the same thing do not share ownership of the invention.
01:01:48 <ehird_> Surely that is an argument *against* patents?
01:01:59 <ehird_> Patents discourage original thought if it leads to the same conclusion.
01:02:22 <coppro> It is an argument against the current system.
01:02:22 <pikhq> Patents also discourage building on previous thought.
01:02:32 <coppro> I just wanted to clarify my stance
01:02:48 <ehird_> The whole definition of parents is that if you invent something first, other people have to pay you to use that invention.
01:02:53 <ehird_> *patents
01:03:43 <ehird_> You say you support patents, but from what I can tell you support a subset of things you believe they result in, and define your position as "reform it so that only those things happen". But I don't think that's possible; you oppose the very underpinning of patents.
01:04:19 <pikhq> What, exactly, *does* he want?
01:04:23 <coppro> I never said I supported the current system as being a stellar exampl of intellectual property law
01:04:37 <ehird_> pikhq: I tried evaluating that, but the thunk diverged.
01:04:42 <ehird_> coppro: I know that.
01:04:57 <pikhq> coppro: You seem opposed to the very notion.
01:05:01 <ehird_> But your "reformed patents" are a contradiction in terms: you want patents without the very underpinning of patents, so that you can get only the results you see as positive.
01:05:02 <pikhq> And don't realise it.
01:05:06 <ehird_> You simply can't have that.
01:05:25 <coppro> ehird_: As far as patents go, pretty much
01:05:28 <ehird_> It's like saying "let's reform petrol engines so they don't produce CO2."
01:05:34 <pikhq> (please, explain how my uninformed opinion about your opinion is wrong. I'd like to actually discuss something.)
01:05:36 <coppro> I want decent IP, not patents
01:05:40 <ehird_> Great! Let's just remove the little block labelled "CO2 generator".
01:05:44 <pikhq> ehird_: Oh, that's certainly possible.
01:05:56 <ehird_> But not by that method.
01:06:00 <ehird_> And it'd have side-effects in the design.
01:06:04 <pikhq> I call it "reformation via axe."
01:06:13 <coppro> copyright, for example, allows for independent creation
01:06:30 <pikhq> coppro: It doesn't allow for standing on the shoulders of giants, however.
01:06:35 <ehird_> I'd like to add that all arguments about IP are purely academic: it is dead, whatever the law says. Piracy is here, it isn't going away, and it's reached critical mass.
01:06:46 <ehird_> We can argue about whether it *should* be like that, but like it or not, IP is dead.
01:06:53 <coppro> IP is not dead
01:06:53 <pikhq> Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable.
01:07:09 <coppro> It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable at all
01:07:15 <pikhq> Excuse me, I just violated copyright law 1,000 times.
01:07:15 <pikhq> Go on.
01:07:23 <pikhq> It cannot.
01:07:29 <coppro> but piracy doesn't even apply to two of the major three forms of intellectual properly
01:07:36 <ehird_> 01:06 < pikhq> Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely
01:07:36 <ehird_> copiable.
01:07:36 <ehird_> 01:06 < coppro> It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely
01:07:36 <ehird_> copiable at all
01:07:44 <ehird_> coppro: you just infringed on pikhq's copyright, you bastard
01:07:48 <ehird_> his intellectual rights are infringed.
01:08:10 * coppro ignores the last 6 lines
01:08:10 <pikhq> To have an "intellectual property" law is to suggest that the following is not possible: for i in {1..1000000000000};do cp foo foo.$i;done
01:08:22 <coppro> pikhq: What about patents and trademarks?
01:08:37 <ehird_> i would not class trademarks as strictly ip
01:08:40 <coppro> Both of those actually rely on the assumption that copying is simple
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01:08:47 <pikhq> Patents, too, are flawed, but for an entirely different reason.
01:08:48 <ehird_> they seem more about usage
01:09:01 <coppro> I don't disagree with that
01:09:24 <pikhq> That reason is this: limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does.
01:09:39 <pikhq> And trademarks? Honestly, trademark law is actually just fine.
01:09:59 <ehird_> pikhq: btw i debated these issues at great length and scope with coppro using basically identical arguments for hours; good luck :P
01:10:23 <coppro> pikhq: I agree in practice but I disagree in principle
01:10:35 <ehird_> coppro: you mixed those two up
01:10:46 <pikhq> coppro: ... I am sure you mixed those two up.
01:11:13 <coppro> limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does <-- as far as the existing law goes, I agree
01:11:35 <pikhq> ... That's not something about the specific details of the law.
01:11:47 <ehird_> pikhq: btw you're unlikely to get an answer out of coppro about what his proposed fix to the law is...
01:11:48 <pikhq> That's a disagreement of the ENTIRE PREMISE of patent law.
01:11:50 <ehird_> i tried
01:11:56 <pikhq> ehird_: Magic?
01:12:06 <pikhq> "By pretending it's 1970, it works!"
01:12:38 <coppro> pikhq: There's the thing; if you limit the term of patents to something more reasonable, then the harm/good ratio balances out
01:12:49 <ehird_> interesting factoid: before 1923, music didn't exist
01:12:50 <pikhq> coppro: ...
01:12:56 <ehird_> thank god for copyright's stimulation of creativity
01:13:05 <coppro> ehird_: No kidding!
01:13:14 <ehird_> No, yes kidding.
01:13:17 <pikhq> Uh, what do you think is a more reasonable term?
01:13:47 <pikhq> (if you say anything longer than a few months, I'm going to think you're not even on the same planet. :P)
01:14:32 <coppro> pikhq: I can't answer that question with certainty, but I would say that two years would be the upper bound; something just under a year is most likely optimal
01:15:00 <pikhq> coppro: Still causes more harm.
01:15:19 <ehird_> i should pirate something while you're having this discussion, just to add some practical scientific data to who's winning
01:15:42 <coppro> pikhq: What's the basis for saying that?
01:15:44 <pikhq> A patent, you see, is an incomprehensible mass of words, rather than documentation to build on.
01:16:10 <pikhq> Though current law goes out of its way to make sure this is so, this is inherent in the idea of patents.
01:16:25 <pikhq> You see, there is an incentive to make the patent not easily understood.
01:16:37 <ehird_> the problem with patents is that it assumes thinking of a way to do something is creating that method in concept-space
01:16:41 <coppro> that's a flaw with the patent office, not with thelaw
01:16:42 <pikhq> It prevents competition for a bit longer.
01:16:45 <ehird_> it isn't; we merely find it with our thinking
01:16:53 <ehird_> *merely find
01:16:56 <pikhq> No, that's a flaw with the very concept.
01:17:00 <ehird_> well, okay, that's just one, massively theoretical objection
01:17:02 <coppro> A patent application "set out clearly the various steps in a process, or the method of constructing, making, compounding or using a machine, manufacture or composition of matter, in such full, clear, concise and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art or science to which it pertains, or with which it is most closely connected, to make, construct, compound or use it;"
01:17:02 <ehird_> :-D
01:17:05 <coppro> +must
01:17:24 <pikhq> The very *concept* has an incentive to be as non-understandable as possible.
01:17:25 <ehird_> coppro: And the constitution of the United States of America says that George Bush couldn't have done so many things he did, too.
01:17:33 <ehird_> And... that... stopped him.
01:17:50 <ehird_> Yay for corporatism.
01:17:53 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, that is the exact phrasing of the law and what the patent office strives to do.
01:18:15 <ehird_> The thing I like about the patent office is that they need experts in every single subject in the entire universe to work fairly
01:18:20 <pikhq> It is impossible to ensure this without hiring, oh, every single person skilled in every art and every science. :P
01:18:22 <ehird_> They might as well just have called it "The Institution"
01:18:37 <ehird_> Perhaps insert "Mental" somewhere in that.
01:18:56 <coppro> The problem is we're mixing practice and theory
01:19:18 <coppro> I don't disagree that, as it exists, patent law is near-fundamentally flawed
01:19:36 <pikhq> Law is not a matter of theory vs. practice.
01:19:40 <ehird_> how can you say "the patent system is near-fundamentally flawed" and still hold that "patents are a good idea"
01:19:44 <ehird_> do you know what "fundamentally" means
01:19:48 <ehird_> it means not an implementation detail
01:19:55 <coppro> That's why I said "near-"
01:20:03 <coppro> the fundamental idea of patents is good
01:20:09 <coppro> just about everything else about them is not
01:20:14 <pikhq> What is good about it?
01:20:27 <coppro> It encourages information sharing
01:20:31 <pikhq> I know of nothing good about it in the modern day and age.
01:20:33 <pikhq> No it doesn't.
01:20:44 <ehird_> "I want ponies, and kittens. But they shouldn't poop because poop is gross. We should legislate that ponies and kittens cannot poop."
01:20:45 <coppro> The fundamental idea does
01:20:54 <ehird_> "Hooray for pat^H^Honies and kittens!"
01:20:58 <pikhq> No it doesn't.
01:21:04 <pikhq> The fundamental idea *wants to*.
01:21:35 <pikhq> What it does is encourages the publication of sufficient details to make a lawer satisified that you got it first.
01:21:59 <coppro> No, that's what the implementation does
01:22:00 <pikhq> s/lawer/lawyer/
01:22:09 <pikhq> No, that's fundamental.
01:22:17 <coppro> How?
01:22:31 <coppro> How is publishing vague specifications fundamental to the functioning of patent law?
01:22:49 <pikhq> Because the entire idea is to make you publish sufficient details to make a lawyer satisified that you got it first.
01:23:22 <coppro> From a commercial perspective, sure
01:23:34 <pikhq> ...
01:23:55 <coppro> But the standard of clarity is a detail of the implementation of patent law
01:23:56 <ehird_> is it just me or is coppro arguing for the practical implementation of patents based on abstract arguments for it
01:24:09 <coppro> No. I'm arguing that the fundamental idea is sound
01:24:23 <coppro> (in the sense that communism is sound)
01:24:28 <coppro> (more or less)
01:24:32 <pikhq> Clarity is impossible to enforce without hiring every specialist ever.
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01:24:47 <coppro> No, just one specialist in every field
01:25:03 <pikhq> And in every subfield. And in every subsubfield. And so on.
01:25:49 <coppro> It could be done, all the same.
01:26:00 <pikhq> And whatever standard of clarity is defined, you must realise: that is the *maximum* that people will do.
01:26:19 <pikhq> Not the minimum, the maximum.
01:26:23 <coppro> absolutely
01:26:31 <coppro> Oh, and also, there should be penalties for frivolous patents
01:26:40 <pikhq> There are.
01:26:51 <pikhq> The law is fucking impossible to enforce.
01:27:17 <pikhq> In this hypothetical perfect patent system, BTW, everyone would be hired under the patent office already.
01:27:21 <pikhq> ... Meaning not doing anything else.
01:27:37 <pikhq> ... Meaning that the world economy collapses, and we're back to throwing shit at each other.
01:27:43 <pikhq> While shrieking.
01:28:14 <coppro> I can't find anything that references penalties for frivolous patents
01:28:36 <pikhq> Then you suck at precedent.
01:28:58 <coppro> Apparently
01:30:22 <pikhq> So, in conclusion: patents cannot be enforced, they award entirely the wrong thing, and they punish those who would stand on the shoulders of giants. Ergo, patents are a detriment to human society.
01:30:26 <pikhq> QED.
01:30:47 <coppro> All you've managed to do is refute every point except the one I've made
01:31:00 <pikhq> ... What points have you made?
01:31:11 <pikhq> You've only said "I WANT PONIES WITHOUT THE POO!"
01:31:22 <coppro> No. I've said that they would be good without the poo
01:31:32 <pikhq> coppro: Oh.
01:31:45 <ehird_> coppro: But you think removing the poo is achievable.
01:31:48 <pikhq> In other words, you're being a fucking retard.
01:31:54 <ehird_> You refuse, however, to provide any method for achieving this.
01:32:21 * coppro facepalms
01:32:31 <pikhq> You want water that's not wet, animals that don't shit, and bits that aren't copiable.
01:32:49 <coppro> Do I want them? Yes. Do I think that I'm ever going to get them? No.
01:32:51 <pikhq> I'm sorry, but all that's wrong with patents is inherent in patents.
01:33:15 <ehird_> coppro: so... I wasted all my debating with you, offering practical reasons why things like patents cannot work...
01:33:27 <ehird_> ...when your only point is "It sure would be nice if patents weren't unfixable."
01:33:33 <ehird_> I'm going to go cry now.
01:33:36 <coppro> lol
01:36:54 <ehird_> Can I have my turn now?
01:36:56 * ehird_ facepalms
01:37:05 <coppro> no
01:38:24 <ehird_> pikhq: Synchronised facepalm?
01:39:26 <pikhq> ehird_: Yes.
01:39:29 <ehird_> 3
01:39:31 <ehird_> 2
01:39:32 <ehird_> 1
01:39:34 * pikhq facepalms
01:39:35 * ehird_ facepalms
01:39:37 * pikhq facepalms
01:39:40 * ehird_ facepalms
01:39:50 * coppro footshoulders
01:40:03 * ehird_ poops
01:40:07 * pikhq beats coppro with a luser attitude retraining tool
01:40:22 <ehird_> There should be a luser(1) that reduces the user's quota to 1 KiB.
01:40:26 <coppro> lol
01:40:39 <ehird_> And... adjusts... their home directory to account for this.
01:40:47 <ehird_> Biggest files preferred for removal, of course.
01:40:58 <ehird_> And real files over dotfiles.
01:40:58 <coppro> No, smallest first
01:41:09 <ehird_> coppro: Nah; that'll just remove insignificant things.
01:41:10 <ehird_> Erm.
01:41:11 <ehird_> I mean.
01:41:13 <ehird_> That's less efficient.
01:41:22 <ehird_> Also, it would remove their mail; they've probably already read it, anyway.
01:41:35 <ehird_> It would be fun to design a general purpose language with more features than Perl 6.
01:41:40 <coppro> ehird_: No, it will remove all the insignificant things first. Then it would run out of things less than 1 KiB, and have to delete it all
01:41:58 <coppro> I'd call you stupid at this point, but that's not my style
01:42:11 <pikhq> ehird_: First, take Perl 6. Then, add TECO.
01:42:18 <ehird_> This is the 90s, who has files bigger than 1 KiB anyway
01:42:28 <pikhq> ... I'm not sure where to go from there.
01:42:30 <ehird_> also, I don't call people stupid for missing my jokes; I say "whoosh".
01:42:35 <coppro> pikhq: CPAN?
01:42:46 <pikhq> coppro: No, no, no.
01:42:56 <ehird_> I call people stupid when they repeatedly misinterpret or misunderstand concepts, make assumptions, and give false conclusions illogically based on these, despite me explaining things first.
01:42:56 <pikhq> By "Perl 6", I meant "Perl 6 and all of CPAN".
01:43:05 <ehird_> People have an immense power to go through these steps veeeeery quickly.
01:43:18 <pikhq> Probably add on Perl 5.
01:43:24 <coppro> pikhq: Well, Perl 6 doesn't really have much CPAN right now.
01:43:35 <ehird_> But yeah, it would be fun to design a language which does everything concisely and with little overhead... purely because it has lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of stuff.
01:44:02 <pikhq> Every single Unicode character is a unique command?
01:44:13 <ehird_> No. :P
01:44:37 <pikhq> ... Syntactical construct?
01:44:42 <ehird_> Does Haskell let you define ∅, I wonder?
01:44:47 <ehird_> pikhq: Not neccessarily characters.
01:45:04 <coppro> Perl 6 is filled with so much DWIM, it's simultaneously awesome and hideous
01:45:17 <coppro> and there was at least one thing that bugged me last time I looked at the spec... something to do with the Whatever
01:45:26 <pikhq> coppro: It also has a nice Haskell FFI. :P
01:46:58 <ehird_> exclude /^#/ # A MoreThanPerl6 script to strip comments from an e.g. crontab file.
01:47:04 <ehird_> Wonder what that looks like in Perl 5/6.
01:47:39 <ehird_> Also, even if it is yet another implicit concept, having Perl's -p be implied by not giving an argument to a filtery thingy is... disturbing.
01:48:11 <coppro> Perl 6 no longer implies $_ everywhere
01:48:18 <ehird_> ;_;
01:48:27 <coppro> instead, using the . operator without on object implies using it on $_
01:48:37 <ehird_> yeah, i know that much
01:49:26 <ehird_> s/\$(\w+)/ { ENV[$1] } g;
01:49:35 <ehird_> Hmm, wait.
01:49:41 <ehird_> That ending / means that's ambiguous.
01:50:07 <coppro> also, Perl 6 regexes are whitespace-insensitive. THIS IS MADNESS
01:50:11 <ehird_> Although maybe it should be s/foo/"bar"g; well, that's certainly more consistent with what I said, but still.
01:50:19 <ehird_> Weird.
01:50:31 <ehird_> Ooh, what if the first argument could be a block too?
01:50:47 <coppro> Perl 6's Unicode support is one of my favorite things in the history of ever
01:50:48 <ehird_> s{rand}{"poop"}g
01:51:04 <ehird_> (Since s expects a boolean result from its first block, rand returns either true or false.)
01:51:07 <pikhq> coppro: Bah. I prefer Plan 9 C's support.
01:51:16 <ehird_> Actually, that could just be s{rand}"poop"g
01:51:18 <coppro> pikhq: link?
01:51:19 <pikhq> It just works.
01:51:21 <pikhq> For everything.
01:51:31 <coppro> Same with Perl 6, except more
01:51:34 <ehird_> Well, it *is* the original implementation of UTF-8.
01:51:38 <ehird_> coppro: you can't say that
01:51:42 <ehird_> you just asked for a link
01:51:51 <ehird_> so you clearly have no idea what Plan 9 C's unicode is like
01:51:55 <ehird_> so you can't say perl6's is better
01:51:57 <pikhq> Let's see if I can find the UTF-8 docs.
01:52:04 <ehird_> I'll find them
01:52:08 <ehird_> I know where the plan 9 man pages are
01:52:11 <coppro> [18:50:55]<pikhq>It just works. [18:50:58]<pikhq>For everything. <-- Perl is even better
01:52:11 <pikhq> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9 This has some of it.
01:52:24 <ehird_> coppro: he's talking about unicode support
01:52:33 <coppro> yes I know
01:52:41 <pikhq> Unicode just works for everything on Plan 9.
01:52:42 <pikhq> Period.
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01:53:14 <ehird_> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/rune
01:53:42 <ehird_> and http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/bio for the io functions
01:56:04 <ehird_> plan 9's solution to the problem of unicode handling is to make there not be any problem
01:56:21 <coppro> Yep.
01:56:31 <ehird_> since it was the first utf-8 implementation it was all pretty new ground as far as encodings go... so since they didn't *know* there had to be a problem, they didn't code any problems in :P
01:57:09 <ehird_> it doesn't handle non-BMP stuff, but there wasn't any non-BMP stuff when they implemented that (two or three days from scribbling out the UTF-8 standard to having Plan 9 fully running it, IIRC)
01:57:13 <ehird_> (circa 1992)
01:57:20 <ehird_> and, well, plan 9 isn't exactly under active development :P
01:58:16 <pikhq> It's the nicest C handling of UTF-8 I know of.
01:58:29 <ehird_> ok, seriously, I am <-> this close to patching lwm to allow me to raise windows by clicking inside them
01:58:31 <pikhq> "Let's make it not hard." "Done."
01:58:50 <ehird_> although i'd be more likely to simply write my own, inspired window manager
01:59:43 <ehird_> knowing me, probably go ahead and give it a fun filesystem-based interface
02:00:13 <ehird_> mv $qwm/tabsets/{4,2}/0
02:00:21 <ehird_> voila, the first window in tabset 4 is moved to tabset 2
02:00:35 <ehird_> (by default there'd be a 1:1 mapping of tabsets to windows; if you have two windows, both will be in that tabset)
02:00:57 <ehird_> probably the windows in a tabset would be symlinks to $qwm/windows/N
02:01:05 <ehird_> hmm
02:01:11 <ehird_> I wonder if X allows you to draw the same window twice
02:01:23 <ehird_> i.e. could symlinking a window into more than one tabset possibly work
02:03:54 <ehird_> might steal lwm's window placement algorithm for it
02:03:57 <pikhq> A compositing WM could manage it.
02:04:10 <ehird_> it seems to do cascading, but if there's nothing to casccade to, spreads out to maximise space
02:04:13 <ehird_> i may be wrong
02:04:17 <ehird_> but it feels like that
02:04:21 <ehird_> pikhq: bah, compositing WMs
02:04:25 <ehird_> I don't even want to write a reparenting WM
02:05:48 <ehird_> pikhq: i mean, lwm can hide windows but they're still there and can be retrieved later, i.e. resizing
02:05:56 <ehird_> so it seems like window = abstract concept is the way to go
02:06:02 <ehird_> if it can be shown 0 or 1 times, why not 2+?
02:06:14 <ehird_> no reason to restrict them to being "physically" put in ses of tabs
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02:09:43 * coppro looks forward to trying out the new tabbing KDE WM
02:11:05 <ehird_> anyone know of any good ncurses IM clients?
02:11:12 <pikhq> irssi
02:11:17 <ehird_> sid's centerim is too old to connect to msn
02:11:24 <ehird_> (version is from february!)
02:11:34 <ehird_> pikhq: that's an irc client; and yes, i know of bitlbee
02:11:44 <pikhq> I use bitlbee.
02:11:55 <ehird_> i said i know of bitlbee
02:13:10 <pikhq> High-latency link.
02:13:22 <ehird_> ah
02:15:46 <ehird_> I want to write my WM in Haskell, but xmonad has cornered that market. :P
02:16:00 <ehird_> (This raising issue is *really* pissing me off.)
02:18:44 <ehird_> Also, it is rather sad that Debian sid in a VM with 360 megs of RAM and a Gecko-based XUL browser (as opposed to WebKit + native) is performing better than the OS X host.
02:18:51 <ehird_> Well, the graphics are a bit laggy and stuff, but still.
02:20:15 <coppro> my VM at work does that
02:20:29 <coppro> NTFS :(
02:20:34 <ehird_> OS X really does have too many layers. :P
02:21:27 <ehird_> ...
02:21:33 <ehird_> Debian has an up-to-date Haskell Platform.
02:21:51 <pikhq> Yes, yes it does.
02:21:57 <ehird_> Up to the 0.0.x version.
02:22:24 <ehird_> It says that the individual packages mightt not be the version specified in the Haskell Platform, but eh. It's sid; probably not too far behind.
02:22:35 <ehird_> Why are you installing gcc 4.1, Debian?
02:23:02 <coppro> Because that's the newest version they had available at the time?
02:23:16 <pikhq> coppro: Sid.
02:23:26 <coppro> yes
02:23:31 <ehird_> It's probably some Haskell package breaks with later versions.
02:23:37 <ehird_> Like happy or alex
02:23:40 <ehird_> But still.
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02:27:08 <ehird_> One disadvantage with the location-bar-for-google-search method: for some reason, everything after and including the first / is stripped.
02:32:14 <ehird_> Interesting fact: build-essential isn't intended for setting up a development environment.
02:32:29 <ehird_> It's meant to be "everything you need to build Debian packages"; in fact, the description even says you only need it if you want to build them.
02:32:47 <Pthing> that is interesting
02:32:56 <ehird_> i sense sarcasm
02:33:07 <Pthing> if you don't think so, you can fuck off
02:33:15 <pikhq> Yeah, it's gcc, libc headers, and the .deb build tools...
02:33:17 <pikhq> Oh, and binutils.
02:33:24 <ehird_> Pthing: wat
02:33:30 <Pthing> fff
02:34:02 <Pthing> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSRLETlKDg
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02:34:42 <ehird_> i continue to lack
02:34:43 <ehird_> erm
02:34:46 <ehird_> access to youtube
02:34:46 <ehird_> but
02:34:54 <ehird_> Pthing: i'm well aware of that quote
02:35:02 <Pthing> then
02:35:04 <Pthing> don't wat
02:35:05 <Pthing> ffffff
02:35:06 <ehird_> it was just, you know, a non-sequitur in context
02:35:11 <ehird_> Ggggg.
02:35:15 <Pthing> hhhhhhh
02:36:09 * ehird_ installs emacs23 for haskelling
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03:02:30 <ehird> Oi, Emacs users!
03:05:03 <pikhq> Yes?
03:07:03 <ehird> pikhq: Either:
03:07:28 <ehird> 1. Know of any color schemes that aren't hideous uncoordinated piles of vomit that would go well with a #BBBBBB background?
03:07:31 <ehird> or
03:08:00 <ehird> 2. Know of any "colour" schemes that are all black foreground (well, maybe some shades of grey are acceptable, as long as it goes well on #BBB) and do their highlighting through bolding and the like?
03:08:29 <pikhq> Not really.
03:08:40 <Sgeo> <3 loves uncoordinated vomit
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03:11:09 <ehird> As I was saying before irssi barfed,
03:11:14 <ehird> Sgeo: We don't need to know about your fetishes. :P
03:12:05 <ehird> Does irssi have anything to let me click links automagically? This is irritating.
03:15:24 <pikhq> Needs terminal support.
03:16:26 <ehird> urxvt supports a dog and a horse, it can do it.
03:16:30 <ehird> (Worst phrase ever.)
03:16:41 <ehird> Surely it can just hook into mouseclick?
03:21:44 <pikhq> Probably. But that's a terminal thing, not a irssi thing.
03:22:06 <ehird> Yes, but irssi is the one to detect the click and go "x-www-browser $url"
03:24:09 <ehird> Ah:
03:24:10 <ehird> URxvt*urlLauncher: firefox
03:24:10 <ehird> URxvt*matcher.button: 1
03:24:11 <ehird> URxvt*perl-ext-common: matcher
03:24:35 * ehird still doesn't know what * vs . doe
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03:26:48 <ehird> Yay, it works now.
03:26:56 <ehird> *does
03:35:08 <ehird> Wish it changed the cursor on hover, though.
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04:13:59 <ehird> heh, my scale function makes my checkerboard, when scaled by an even amount, go entirely black :)
04:19:59 <ehird> and if you scale it by 0.5, it gets twice as *big*
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04:28:32 <soupdragon> hi basement bomb dude
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06:42:25 <zzo38> Why do some web-pages do both open in the current and a new buffer at the same time when you click a link?
06:43:27 <oerjan> that's been irritating me too
06:43:36 <oerjan> i assumed they were using javascript
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06:43:42 <zzo38> Yes, they are using JavaScript.
06:43:57 <oerjan> and ignoring the fact some people use tabbed browsing
06:45:05 <oerjan> so it's detecting a click, and not what kind of click it is
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06:45:45 <oerjan> but i'm just guessing
06:46:09 <zzo38> But it irritating me, when I left-click a link it opens in both buffers. And in some pages, middle-clicking a link will open a blank buffer or not do anything. This bothers me too. I also made it all links with target=_NEW open in the same buffer instead of a new one, but some links like this don't even have a TARGET attribute
06:46:36 <zzo38> Also, in some other web-pages, I have found that, left-clicking opens in the same buffer and middle-clicking opens in both buffers. This is also no good.
06:47:12 <oerjan> oh is this with ordinary left clicking too? i've been noticing it when opening in a tab (with ctrl-click). but i guess it depends on browser.
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06:47:26 <oerjan> *a new tab
06:47:49 <zzo38> It depends on the site, some sites do one things and others do anothers things
06:48:06 <oerjan> i mean it probably depends on both
06:48:15 <zzo38> Sometimes using the C-F or C-add C-F commands will help, but not always
06:49:50 <oerjan> mhm
06:50:00 <zzo38> And I never really understood family relationships until last week, when I saw the equation, and I realized it was actually all very simple.
06:51:38 * oerjan didn't know there was an equation, always assumed family was an unsolvable problem </joke>
06:52:23 <soupdragon> heh
06:52:42 <soupdragon> whats the equation?
06:53:47 <zzo38> It is simple. With two people, figure out the common ancestor and the number of generations between the person and the common ancestor (for example, if same generation as ancestor (yourself) it is zero, etc). Next:
06:54:10 <zzo38> Figure out the difference of the number of generations. This number is the number of removed. Next:
06:54:32 <zzo38> Figure out which number of generations between that person and the ancestor is smaller, and subtract one. That is the rank. End.
06:55:14 <zzo38> Or, in mathematical notation: Rank=min(a,b)-1; Removed=|a-b|
06:55:26 <oerjan> ah.
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06:56:42 <zzo38> Now I can understand who can be my cousin, first cousin, second, once removed, etc, and how many zeroth cousins (zero removed) I have, too.
06:57:11 <zzo38> And various other stuff. At first, before, I had heard of "second cousins once removed" before but I really didn't understand what that meant. Now I do understand.
06:57:21 <oerjan> i do not think the terms zeroth (and minus oneth?) cousins are actually used, you know :)
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06:57:59 <zzo38> I don't think so either, but at least it is easily defined
06:58:04 <oerjan> even if they are logical
06:58:18 <zzo38> Like, zeroth cousins zero removed would be your brother and sister, for example.
06:58:41 <immibis> your -1th cousin would be yourself?
06:58:45 <zzo38> Yes
06:59:00 <oerjan> or removed, your ancestors/descendants
06:59:06 <zzo38> Yes
06:59:30 <pikhq> So, I'm my -1th, 7th, and 9th cousins. Great.
06:59:50 <oerjan> pikhq: um no, only -1th
07:00:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Um, no.
07:00:09 <oerjan> last common ancestor only
07:00:22 <pikhq> Eh.
07:00:31 <oerjan> unless you have one of those convoluted families
07:00:51 <pikhq> Which I do.
07:01:10 <pikhq> Once again: I'm my own cousin. :P
07:01:21 <oerjan> ah well
07:03:12 <oerjan> at least english _has_ a "removed" concept. as far as i know, norwegian doesn't.
07:03:38 <zzo38> Generally when they say "cousin" by itself they generally refer to first cousins, though, not -1th cousins
07:04:30 * oerjan has no idea what first cousin once removed is in norwegian, if there even is a term
07:05:51 <oerjan> which when i think about it is somewhat awkward given that i have at least five of them
07:06:27 <oerjan> ah well
07:06:58 <oerjan> no wait, six
07:07:34 <oerjan> seven
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07:08:38 <oerjan> and those are just the ones i am reasonably sure about
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07:28:00 <zzo38> Have you ever used or heard of the BBL/Abundance database system? It is a very old one, that in some ways is more advanced than Java. However, I have a question, how can I make the sounds properly on a modern computer (with FreeDOS installed)?
07:29:04 <pikhq> Turn your computer on and start the program.
07:29:08 <pikhq> Now, make "beep beep" noises.
07:29:16 <pikhq> It'll probably sound more realistic.
07:30:33 <zzo38> No, that isn't what I mean. I mean, when you use commands like POOP-TONE and BOMB-TONE and such, that it sounds proper instead of just one tick regardless of which sound you type
07:31:12 <zzo38> But I can tell you, BBL/Abundance is very fast, even on XT computer, running from floppy disks.
07:31:25 <zzo38> And the computer is at the church, I can't turn it on right now
07:33:10 <zzo38> Also, how do I disable the mouse driver on FreeDOS?
07:33:24 <zzo38> That computer doesn't even have a mouse
07:33:56 <oerjan> i am not sure it is appropriate to make POOP-TONEs at church, mind you
07:34:37 <pikhq> zzo38: Uh, autoexec.bat or config.sys?
07:34:56 <zzo38> Those are just examples, there is also NOTE-TONE and such things as that. These sound effects are used to tell the user that the data is invalid or that it is out of memory for jaunting (running the program backward in time), etc.
07:35:08 <zzo38> And autoexec.bat and config.sys don't mention the mouse driver at all, but it still starts up
07:35:48 <zzo38> And it isn't in the part of the church where you do the service, instead, the computer is at the building next to it, used for religious education.
07:36:17 <zzo38> While they already have a computer there, the computer already there is used by a different group that works in the same building.
07:36:29 <zzo38> They do have a printer, but the cable is not long enough to connect the computer
07:37:50 <oerjan> mhm
07:37:51 <zzo38> Also, BBL/Abundance is Y2K compliant even though it was written 29 years ago! Did you know that?
07:38:41 <oerjan> good for it
07:38:52 <zzo38> Yes
07:38:53 <pikhq> So, they use an int for the year and output it.
07:41:53 <zzo38> I got the computer from Free Geek, it had Ubuntu installed but I replaced it with FreeDOS and then installed Abundance. Normally the computer comes with two optical drives, and a mouse, but I required only one optical drive and no mouse
07:44:03 <zzo38> BBL/Abundance is from Canadian Mind Products. They have a lot of other stuff on their web-site too, which is unrelated, including things about religion, deep thoughts, Christmas carols, and various other stuff, it might be good to read (even if you are not interested in BBL/Abundance)
07:46:36 <zzo38> I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get. -- Napoleon Bonaparte
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07:56:57 <oerjan> O_o
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09:10:45 <AnMaster> merry xmas!
09:10:56 <AnMaster> (in Sweden we celebrate on the 24th)
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09:39:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, merry xmas!
09:40:05 <AnMaster> bbl
09:40:21 <oerjan> merry christmas
09:42:14 * oerjan fetches a chocolate ball
10:07:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, going to grandmother today
10:07:26 <AnMaster> grandparents even
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14:52:48 <anmaster_phone> oerjan, hi there. wow the lag here
14:53:12 <oerjan> laggity lag lag lag?
14:53:14 <anmaster_phone> oh and yeah not directly on phone, on laptop connected to phone by bluetooth
14:53:23 <anmaster_phone> oerjan, GSM is *slow*
14:53:49 <anmaster_phone> not even EDGE here
14:53:56 <oerjan> ok
14:54:59 <anmaster_phone> was hoping to see ehird here. meh. well going to disconnect then. cya
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17:32:33 <zzo38> Hello, today is Christmas Eve, December 24, 2009
17:33:54 <zzo38> Is this a understandable and good explanation of TAVSYS format? http://pbox.ca/10zv0
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