←2009-12-26 2009-12-27 2009-12-28→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:02:04 <oerjan> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent
00:02:56 <oerjan> "Moreover, computing the permanent of a 0-1 matrix (matrix whose entries are 0 or 1) is #P-complete."
00:03:14 <oerjan> i think that's equivalent to your problem
00:03:49 <oerjan> "Thus, if the permanent can be computed in polynomial time by any method, then FP = #P which is an even stronger statement than P = NP."
00:04:04 <soupdragon> how interesting!!
00:04:46 <Ilari> But, P = NP impiles P = PH... Are there any problems known to be in P^#P but not in PH?
00:06:50 <oerjan> well given that P^FP = P if P=NP, plus the above, i'd say no...
00:07:03 <oerjan> er wait
00:07:09 <oerjan> P^FP = P always
00:09:19 <oerjan> "One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy. In fact, the polynomial-time machine only needs to make one #P query to solve any problem in PH." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P)
00:09:30 <oerjan> but i guess that's what you were referring to
00:10:51 <oerjan> a couple more links brings us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP_(complexity)
00:12:33 <oerjan> "PP is contained in PSPACE"
00:13:47 <oerjan> Ilari: i think that means no, because it is not known that P != PSPACE
00:14:37 <oerjan> so if P = PSPACE then P^PP = P containing everything else mentioned
00:15:58 <Ilari> oerjan: The canonical PSPACE-complete problem: Is boolean formula with arbitrary existential and universal operators true?
00:16:24 * oerjan nods
00:17:05 <oerjan> PP has MAJSAT
00:18:59 <Ilari> And for many problems that for turing machine are recursively enumerable (undecidable) are PSPACE-complete for linearly bounded automata.
00:22:31 <oerjan> mhm
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04:17:00 * uorygl ponders the permanent of a 0-1 matrix.
04:18:17 <uorygl> You have n objects and n categories. Each object belongs to some arbitrary set of categories. How many ways are there to pick one object from each category?
04:18:48 <coppro> Is that what the permanent of a 0-1 matrix amounts to?
04:18:53 <uorygl> I believe so.
04:19:21 <oerjan> er...
04:19:55 <oerjan> hm, i guess so.
04:20:26 <oerjan> mind you, exactly one
04:20:42 <oerjan> oh wait
04:20:52 <oerjan> no, that doesn't work
04:21:02 <uorygl> Well, the number of objects is equal to the number of categories either.
04:21:13 <uorygl> If you're picking at least one from each category, you're picking exactly one from each category.
04:21:35 <oerjan> you always pick all the objects, and all the categories. it's the _pairing_ that needs to be picked.
04:22:10 <uorygl> s/ either//
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04:24:29 <oerjan> uorygl: it's the number of ways of pairing objects one-to-one with categories
04:27:51 <uorygl> Yeah.
04:28:06 <uorygl> I guess "ways" is kind of ambiguous.
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06:58:04 <soupdragon> http://www.gotopp.org/
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09:00:50 <ehirdiphone> C abusers: is there a way to tell if an expression is a constant string or not? Typeof or sizeof magic, etc. Constant meaning things like "abc", "abc" "def", etc.
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09:01:52 <oerjan> *chirp*
09:02:03 <soupdragon> if all the strings are in the .text section the pointer values will be below (above) some threshold
09:02:58 <ehirdiphone> Use case (hiding the magic) #define REGEXP(s) if (constant(s)) compile in the corresponding compiled regexp else compile in a rubtime call to the regexp compiler
09:03:05 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: in the C itself, not post-linking.
09:03:17 <ehirdiphone> *rubtime
09:03:20 <ehirdiphone> ...
09:03:27 <ehirdiphone> *runtime
09:04:38 <ehirdiphone> I guess the bigger issue is compiling a regexp at compile time, requiring either C execution or spawning a command.
09:04:57 <soupdragon> seems like something you'd normally want to use lisp for
09:04:58 <ehirdiphone> Neither of which gcc is wont to do.
09:05:20 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Yes, but it's not an interesting task in Lisp.
09:05:27 <soupdragon> exactly my point
09:05:36 <ehirdiphone> Perhaps a before-link task.
09:06:09 <ehirdiphone> Looks for some magic planted by the macro, compiles the regexp and links it in.
09:06:21 <ehirdiphone> But that's rather heavyweight.
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10:16:30 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: a lot of what augur said about Haskell was outright wrong or explained badly.
10:16:56 <augur> ehirdiphone: a lot of it was right and explained correctly. until the monad stuff
10:17:01 <augur> cause god only knows about monads man
10:17:06 <ehirdiphone> Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP.
10:17:31 * oerjan laughs at today's iwc
10:18:05 <ehirdiphone> augur: No, you made factual errors, and your explanations were of your usual style, glossing over and bending around in confusing twists.
10:18:23 <augur> no i didnt and no they werent. :|
10:18:26 <augur> you're just ehird
10:18:32 <augur> malcontent extraordinaire
10:18:38 <augur> :|
10:18:44 <ehirdiphone> Besides, anyone who couldn't even write a monad tutorial based around a terrible metaphor shouldn't be teaching it.
10:18:54 <oerjan> hey hey relax, why can't you _both_ be right
10:19:04 <augur> what?
10:19:05 <oerjan> or wrong, as the case may be
10:19:06 <ehirdiphone> augur: You made factual errors. End of story.
10:19:11 <augur> couldnt even write a monad tutorial? what?
10:19:15 <augur> which factual erors
10:19:45 <ehirdiphone> One being that you can make multiple functions of the same name as long ad their type
10:19:57 <ehirdiphone> As their type differs
10:20:25 <ehirdiphone> This is false. You apparently discover typeclasses a few lines after stating this.
10:20:36 <ehirdiphone> But typeclasses do not do this either.
10:20:46 <augur> er
10:21:06 <augur> well, perhaps you cannot do it precisely as i said
10:21:10 <augur> but you pretty much can, ehird.
10:21:14 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: dupdog in Total FP seems unlikely. after all iirc it is pretty clear that some dupdog programs don't terminate
10:21:15 <augur> typeclasses _do_ do this.
10:21:20 <ehirdiphone> I would write more but seeing as all your explanations last five years i've forgotten most of it
10:21:27 <ehirdiphone> augur: You are wrong.
10:21:58 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: hmm. Darn.
10:22:03 <augur> well then ill let you bullshit an explanation for how you can have >>= defined differently for different kinds of monads.
10:22:22 <augur> in a way thats dependent on the particular monad involved
10:22:44 <ehirdiphone> Those are not multiple definitions of (>>=).
10:22:51 <augur> oh right sorry
10:23:01 <augur> its just >>= appearing in multiple places
10:23:05 <augur> in definitions...
10:23:11 <augur> with different type signatures in each place
10:23:15 <augur> how silly of me
10:23:49 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all
10:24:09 <ehirdiphone> else I'll be forced to explain what typeclasses actually are
10:24:18 <oerjan> that would be an argument by miniscule authority? :D
10:24:18 <ehirdiphone> On an iphone
10:24:28 <augur> ehird, iknow well enough what type classes are
10:24:33 <ehirdiphone> To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell
10:24:42 <augur> ehird stop talking about yourself
10:24:55 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: More tiny than Russell's Teapot!
10:25:19 <augur> oh god if only there were some sort of tutorial
10:25:21 <augur> on haskell.org
10:25:28 <augur> that explained overloading of functions!
10:25:28 <ehirdiphone> augur: Did you really just say:
10:25:32 <augur> woe is me! D:
10:25:34 <augur> oh wait
10:25:34 <augur> http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/classes.html
10:25:48 <ehirdiphone> "i know you are but what am i?"
10:26:00 <augur> could it BE?
10:26:47 <augur> could it BE that this document actually says that you can overload a function by defining it differently for different types as they vary under a type class?
10:26:52 <augur> my god!
10:26:57 <augur> i think it DOES!
10:26:58 <augur> D:
10:27:14 <ehirdiphone> You are honestly the most ignorant, self-centered person I have ever had the displeasure of being talked at by on this channel. Cue "I know you are but what am I".
10:27:37 <augur> oh god ehird im so hurt by your displeasure at my being ignorant
10:27:47 <ehirdiphone> (>>=)'s polymorphism does not mean it is more than one function.
10:27:54 <ehirdiphone> You are a fool. Goodbye.
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10:28:08 <augur> what a child.
10:28:15 <oerjan> must be them hormones :D
10:28:38 <augur> "oh its not more than one function! i swear! its just defined COMPLETELY dependent upon the type, meaning there are different LAMBDAS but its the same NAME so its only one function!"
10:29:50 <augur> "and you're an arrogant fool who goes around talking about haskell but _I_ know more about haskell! more than spj himself!"
10:30:19 <oerjan> augur: for the millionth time, stop exaggerating
10:30:36 <augur> sorry; i respond to cunty behavior with cunty behavior.
10:30:41 <augur> not that hes here anymore or anything buit
10:32:48 <augur> there is probably a point to which ehird is correct, ofcourse.
10:33:23 <oerjan> *GASP*
10:33:46 <augur> type classes do actually enforce certain type restrictions so having f :: a -> a and f :: a -> a -> a isnt possible i think
10:33:51 <augur> GASP indeed!
10:34:13 <augur> see, im not above acknowledging when someone is correct
10:35:01 <augur> unfortunately thats about it. other than, the functions _do_ differ in type
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10:37:38 <ehirdiphone> class WrongAgainBatman a b where f :: a -> b
10:38:03 <ehirdiphone> instance WrongAgainBatman a (a -> a) where ...
10:38:05 <augur> lol
10:38:39 <augur> class IHaveToHaveTheLastWord a where idiot :: a -> Bool
10:39:07 <augur> instance IHaveToHaveTheLastWord Ehird where idiot a = true
10:39:16 <augur> I SO SMARTYPANTS
10:40:06 <ehirdiphone> Shit insults without substance, hastily translated into code. I was proving you wrong, not saying "augur is a nitwit on crack", although indeed that is accurate.
10:40:34 <augur> you were proving me wrong huh
10:40:37 <augur> WAT A PROOF OH MAN
10:40:43 <ehirdiphone> I see any further interaction will be epitomic in its boringness.
10:41:24 <augur> maybe you should leave again!
10:41:35 <ehirdiphone> augur: I showed a direct counter example to the statements you made immediately preceding it.
10:41:56 <ehirdiphone> How is that in any way not a disproof of those statements?
10:42:05 <augur> how is it a counter example.
10:42:35 <ehirdiphone> Because you can have f :: a -> a -> a and f :: a
10:42:41 <ehirdiphone> -> a
10:42:50 <ehirdiphone> From one source
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10:43:04 <ehirdiphone> Which you said was impossible.
10:43:37 <augur> did i? im pretty sure I said I think
10:43:40 <augur> which means i wasn't certain
10:43:41 <ehirdiphone> If you didn't understand the code snippet, well, maybe some Haskell knowledge would help.
10:44:05 <augur> which means demonstrating it (which you didnt, since you didnt exactly type a -> a -> a now did you?) merely clears up uncertainty
10:44:10 <ehirdiphone> augur: You say "think" a lot but all the surrounding language was certain.
10:44:44 <ehirdiphone> Also, I didn't type it out, but my code was a direct counterexample.
10:45:03 <augur> was it? cause i dont see how
10:45:37 <ehirdiphone> Because you do not understand Haskell code. Why am I wasting my time, incidentally?
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10:45:52 <augur> such a child.
10:48:25 <MizardX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Axo <-- Expanded the description. Any comments?
11:04:06 <AnMaster> * oerjan laughs at today's iwc <-- me too!
11:06:16 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP. <--- I have been thinking about various sub-TC languages, and I can't think of a way. Plus what oerjan said later.
11:06:49 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all <--- what report?
11:07:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, what report did he mean?
11:07:33 <oerjan> the haskell 98 report
11:07:33 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell <-- please tell me when you get back: do you claim you know haskell? ;)
11:08:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, how comes your name is in there?
11:08:36 <oerjan> some corrections
11:12:08 <AnMaster> heh
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20:00:17 <augur> so quiet D:
20:00:34 <augur> hey uorygl you here?
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21:08:05 <AnMaster> augur, not quiet here
21:08:08 <AnMaster> you spoke ;P
21:08:09 <AnMaster> and me too
21:08:27 <soupdragon> I'm the only one that hasn't spoken
21:08:35 <AnMaster> soupdragon, until then
21:41:34 <FireFly> add me to the list
21:47:10 <AnMaster> google should have a reverse image search
21:47:15 <AnMaster> as in
21:47:26 <AnMaster> you provide an *image* and it tries to locate images like it
21:47:34 <AnMaster> and their context
21:51:52 <FireFly> Yeah
21:51:55 <FireFly> That'd be awesome
21:51:59 <FireFly> I think I've read something about it
22:04:43 <AnMaster> FireFly, what?! it exists?
22:05:02 <AnMaster> I imagine it would take a lot of computation
22:05:43 <FireFly> I don't know if it _exists_, but I think I saw something on Google about something similar
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22:22:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm
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23:05:25 <AnMaster> hm I should start using gigaångström for measurement
23:05:28 <AnMaster> FireFly, ^
23:05:40 <AnMaster> it equals 10 cm says units(1)
23:05:56 <FireFly> Yeah
23:06:08 <FireFly> 1Å is 10nm or 0.1nm
23:06:11 <FireFly> I always forget which
23:06:18 <Deewiant> 0.1
23:06:22 <FireFly> Ah
23:06:27 <FireFly> Whatever, never liked it
23:06:35 <FireFly> Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts
23:06:36 <AnMaster> FireFly, it's like attoparsec
23:06:41 <AnMaster> which is iirc around 3 cm
23:06:42 <AnMaster> or such
23:06:55 <AnMaster> 3.0856776
23:07:13 <Deewiant> Or a furlong per fortnight, which is around 1 cm / minute
23:07:40 <FireFly> Pretty slow
23:07:44 <AnMaster> heh
23:07:45 <FireFly> Snail speed
23:07:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long is a furlong?
23:08:09 <FireFly> Wikipedia probably knows
23:08:11 <Deewiant> Around 200 m IIRC
23:08:12 <AnMaster> ah
23:08:25 <AnMaster> yes 201.168 meters says units(1)
23:08:50 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement
23:08:59 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts <-- pronounce it in English "angstrom"
23:09:08 <AnMaster> of course that sounds worse
23:09:15 <FireFly> Still
23:09:15 <AnMaster> it sounds like their "smorgasbord"
23:09:20 <FireFly> sounds wrong to me
23:10:03 <FireFly> And what's the reason for having a unit for 0.1nm anyway?
23:10:16 <AnMaster> FireFly, atoms
23:10:20 <FireFly> 0.8nm makes more sense than 8Å for me
23:10:30 <AnMaster> 8 Å
23:10:31 <AnMaster> you mean
23:10:35 <AnMaster> maybe
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