←2010-01-03 2010-01-04 2010-01-05→ ↑2010 ↑all
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01:13:10 <uorygl> coppro: a Rush Hour clone.
01:13:22 <AnMaster> uorygl, ?
01:13:58 <coppro> link?
01:16:15 <uorygl> I have no links, but there are many for the iPhone.
01:16:31 <coppro> a) I have no iPhone b) I want a game I can play now
01:17:20 <AnMaster> coppro, what type of game did you say?
01:17:49 <coppro> [16:11:42]<coppro>anyone have a good logic game I can play quickly (like *gasp* Flash?)
01:17:55 <coppro> was just looking for a time-killer
01:18:01 <AnMaster> coppro, logic came. Like minesweeper?
01:18:12 <coppro> yes, except ideally one I haven't played before
01:18:15 <AnMaster> coppro, or sudoko?
01:18:18 <coppro> :(
01:18:20 <AnMaster> spelling?
01:18:25 <coppro> was hoping for something more complex
01:18:29 * AnMaster needs to fix this shitty dict
01:18:33 <uorygl> Sudoku.
01:18:34 <AnMaster> coppro, nethack?
01:18:46 <coppro> too complex
01:19:00 <AnMaster> uorygl, yeah it had no suggestions. And it knows "I recompile" but not "he recompiles"
01:19:10 <AnMaster> as in adding an s marks it as unknown
01:19:13 <AnMaster> spelling dict fail
01:19:17 <AnMaster> coppro, meh!
01:19:25 <AnMaster> coppro, hm...
01:19:30 <coppro> like, think Rubicon
01:19:36 <coppro> that's a good example of the sort of thing I'm after
01:19:36 <uorygl> If there is a game known as Nethack--, then that.
01:19:43 <AnMaster> coppro, oh ubunut?
01:19:45 <AnMaster> ubuntu*
01:19:49 <AnMaster> apt-get install kiki
01:19:51 <AnMaster> iirc
01:20:07 <AnMaster> coppro, wait no
01:20:10 <uorygl> What's Rubicon?
01:20:10 <AnMaster> coppro, wrong one
01:20:12 <coppro> oh :(
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01:20:30 <AnMaster> coppro, apt-get install kiki-the-nano-bot
01:20:32 <AnMaster> that was it
01:20:32 <coppro> hmm.. yeah, pretty sure I don't want a free environment for regular expression testing
01:20:39 <AnMaster> coppro, it is a 3D puzzle/logic game
01:20:50 <AnMaster> coppro, you steer a small nanobot
01:20:59 <coppro> cool, thanks
01:21:15 <uorygl> Say, I wonder if Enigma would work on an iPhone.
01:21:16 <AnMaster> coppro, it is fun but confusing. Hint: direction of gravity depends on your view point. Nothing else
01:21:26 <AnMaster> and you can climb on walls and such
01:21:38 <AnMaster> coppro, which leads to some interesting puzzles
01:21:51 <coppro> neat
01:22:19 <AnMaster> coppro, ehird played it for a bit but got frustrated and gave up. I got much farther of course than he did
01:22:34 <AnMaster> iirc fizzie or someone else was testing it at the same time
01:22:34 <coppro> AnMaster: how do you jump?
01:22:48 <AnMaster> coppro, sec
01:23:00 <coppro> wait, it's on the manpage
01:23:02 <AnMaster> coppro, depends on keyboard setup :P
01:23:04 <coppro> holy crap, useful X manpage
01:23:13 <AnMaster> iirc I changed it
01:23:14 <AnMaster> coppro, hm?
01:23:35 <coppro> most x programs have useless manpages in my experience
01:23:52 <AnMaster> coppro, the xorg.conf and xorg modules/drivers man pages tend to be ok
01:24:03 <coppro> but that's not an x program
01:24:07 <AnMaster> true
01:24:14 <coppro> also, any way to get it not to mess with the gamma
01:24:16 <coppro> ?
01:24:52 <AnMaster> coppro, unknown, but it switches back when you change window
01:24:57 <AnMaster> coppro, iirc there is a setting for it
01:25:05 <AnMaster> try "settings"
01:25:20 <AnMaster> coppro, but I found it works better in the gamma it wants to use
01:25:45 <coppro> yeah, it's hideous with my default gamma
01:25:58 <AnMaster> coppro, there you go then ;P
01:26:05 <AnMaster> coppro, it will clean up after itself
01:26:48 <coppro> I'm already confused :(
01:27:12 <coppro> I think I need to hit this switch
01:28:24 <coppro> oh, found the help
01:28:28 <AnMaster> coppro, good
01:28:41 <coppro> not sure how again
01:28:54 <AnMaster> coppro, esc , and enter?
01:29:02 <coppro> oh, right
01:29:07 <coppro> so all my assumptions are correct
01:29:09 <coppro> but something here is wrong
01:29:32 <coppro> ah, got it
01:29:34 <coppro> clever
01:33:52 <AnMaster> coppro, btw I haven't solved it further than halfway or so
01:39:27 <AnMaster> ooh solved another one
01:39:27 <AnMaster> night
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04:31:24 <uorygl> Yay, I understand the unexpected hanging paradox.
04:32:47 <coppro> I understand it...
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04:33:26 <uorygl> Yay, two of us understand the unexpected hanging paradox.
04:33:41 <coppro> it's not that hard to understand
04:34:34 <uorygl> Yay, I understand the Monty Hall problem.
04:34:43 <coppro> ...
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04:50:21 * Sgeo puts uorygl into Monty Hell
04:53:25 <uorygl> Remind me how the Monty Hell problem goes.
04:54:00 <Sgeo> I forgot offhand. Something about dollar bills passing into and out of your hand
04:54:27 <uorygl> Hmm, there is no Monty Hell problem, only a Monty Hall problem, a Monty Fall problem, a Monty Crawl problem, and a Monty Maul problem.
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04:54:54 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Monty+Hell disagrees
05:05:11 <uorygl> Hmm, that Monty Hell problem isn't a very monty problem.
06:21:30 <augur> i'd monty your problem
06:21:31 <augur> ;o ;o ;o
06:32:52 <soupdragon> gimme more sci fi
06:33:01 * soupdragon creaks
06:33:36 <soupdragon> ehird any more novellas
06:33:36 <soupdragon> ?
06:51:22 <soupdragon> :(
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07:06:49 <Sgeo> soupdragon, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect
07:07:00 <Sgeo> (spelling?)
07:07:06 <soupdragon> I have read it a couple days ago! it is very good
07:07:16 <soupdragon> I am thinking maybe I will get some asimov books now
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08:32:59 <coppro> soupdragon: I recommend it
08:33:23 <coppro> soupdragon: read the Empire series; they're quite good and yet generally unknown
08:33:34 <soupdragon> okay
08:33:37 <soupdragon> cheers
08:34:03 <coppro> specifically, those are Pebble in the Sky, something, and The Currents of Space
08:34:23 <coppro> The Stars, Like Dust
08:34:39 <coppro> oh, also Nightfall
08:34:53 <coppro> Nightfall is fantastic
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09:52:28 <cheater> soupdragon: outer join
09:56:37 <soupdragon> ??
10:00:05 <cheater> xor
10:01:26 <soupdragon> oh
10:01:34 <soupdragon> the thing is im just xoring booleans, not sets
10:01:58 <soupdragon> so in the end it makes sense to just write out an xor table
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10:11:28 <cheater> *a
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10:44:23 <soupdragon> ?
10:48:54 <AnMaster> $ host dragon
10:48:54 <AnMaster> dragon.lan has address
10:48:54 <AnMaster> Host dragon.lan not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
10:48:56 <AnMaster> now that was weird
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11:12:47 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: re scifi I hear good things about the Culture books
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11:14:47 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: but if you haven't read them yet I suggest reading the Ed stories (on qntm.org)
11:15:08 <ehirdiphone> can't speak for how good Fine Structure is
11:15:50 <ehirdiphone> http://qntm.org/?robot1
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11:56:08 <cheater> soupdragon: a xor
11:56:34 <cheater> soupdragon: also, a xor b <=> (a or b) and not (a and b)
11:57:10 <soupdragon> an xor
11:58:25 <Gracenotes> it tends to be pronounced "zor"
11:58:35 <fizzie> A xorn.
12:00:57 <fizzie> They say that a xorn knows of no obstacles when pursuing you.
12:01:54 <cheater> a zor
12:01:57 <cheater> a zorn lemma
12:02:01 <cheater> a zorro
12:02:05 <cheater> a zorba
12:04:55 <soupdragon> a zork
12:06:58 <cheater> a yagon
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12:39:48 <soupdragon> a zorgonzola
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13:20:18 <cheater> soupdragon: so you don't need a truth table for xor
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13:22:38 <ehirdiphone> Of course you don't.
13:22:47 <ehirdiphone> It's NANDs all the way down.
13:58:35 <Ilari> Except that XOR has special implementation in CMOS that's simpler than via the basic gates.
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14:19:02 <ehirdiphone> Hmm. NAND and NOR are universal. What other ops?
14:19:41 <ehirdiphone> Not NXOR; that's just equality and (p==q)==(p==q) is (p==q).
14:20:04 <ehirdiphone> well. (p==(p==q)
14:20:13 <ehirdiphone> )
14:20:37 <ehirdiphone> Result for p q(y or n):
14:21:18 <ehirdiphone> n n. n
14:21:36 <ehirdiphone> y n. n
14:21:52 <ehirdiphone> n y. y
14:21:58 <ehirdiphone> y y. y
14:22:31 <ehirdiphone> Too lazy to work out what op that is.
14:23:49 <Deewiant> ehirdiphone: f _ q = q
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14:24:31 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Doh >_<
14:24:49 <ehirdiphone> So, NXOR isn't universal.
14:25:06 <ehirdiphone> Deewiant: Btw, you could have also just answered "q" :P
14:25:26 <ehirdiphone> Not as if the parameters ever change.
14:27:12 <Deewiant> Yeah, but I figured that that wouldn't be as easily understood.
14:29:50 <ehirdiphone> p&!q is very boring as a CA and only has one truth value, so I doubt it's universal.
14:30:26 <Deewiant> I'm fairly certain that only NOR and NAND are.
14:30:47 <Deewiant> There's only a limited amount of operators, if there were others we'd know about them.
14:31:17 <Ilari> Then there is two kinds of "unversality": Unversality without having constant logic values and "unversality" with constant logic values.
14:35:27 <ehirdiphone> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness?wasRedirected=true
14:35:33 <ehirdiphone> I guessed as much
14:35:58 <ehirdiphone> My favourite set of functionally completerners is {->, _|_}.
14:36:16 <ehirdiphone> Especially since haskells type system implements it.
14:36:41 <ehirdiphone> -> being -> and _|_ being (forall a. a)
14:36:55 <ehirdiphone> ~p = p -> _|_
14:37:19 <ehirdiphone> Uh, which of ^ V is and?
14:37:26 <ehirdiphone> Forget the order...
14:37:56 <Deewiant> ^
14:38:21 <Deewiant> V is like U for Union
14:39:05 <ehirdiphone> p ^ q = (p -> q -> r) -> r
14:39:34 <ehirdiphone> p V q = (p -> r) -> (q -> r) -> r
14:39:50 <ehirdiphone> And so on.
14:40:37 <ehirdiphone> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:41:11 <ehirdiphone> ((a -> forall b. b) -> forall c. c) -> a
14:42:32 <ehirdiphone> There all ~~p is really saying is "(p is unprovable) is unprovable"
14:42:51 <ehirdiphone> Which isn't the same as "p is provable".
14:43:22 <ehirdiphone> I am rambling.
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14:57:44 <soupdragon> it's not p is unprovable
14:57:56 <soupdragon> p implies false
14:59:37 <oerjan> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:59:40 <oerjan> argh
14:59:46 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell.
14:59:51 <soupdragon> I don't know it always makes me sick to think of haskell as a proof system
15:00:17 <oerjan> yes, it's equivalent to the excluded middle, which does not hold in intuitionistic logic
15:02:27 <oerjan> but you can get it if your programming language has continuations
15:04:08 <soupdragon> I never really got that, can it be phrased in terms of delimited continuations?
15:04:39 <soupdragon> I got cwcc : peirce and pretty simple to prove P \/ ~P from it but I hardly understand it
15:04:44 <oerjan> well _I_ never really got delimited continuations :D
15:05:18 <soupdragon> I feel like they are simpler than cwcc
15:05:29 <oerjan> huh.
15:06:04 <soupdragon> the main thing that makes me think this is the interaction with monads
15:06:16 <soupdragon> like AMB in scheme is basically the list monad
15:06:39 <soupdragon> but you can do this direct style notation for monads thanks to delimited continuations in a really methodical way
15:07:55 <soupdragon> so maybe there is something to do with a double negation monad
15:08:00 <oerjan> hm but i recall that actually making a monad for delimited continuations was rather awkward, while it's easy with just ordinary continuations...
15:08:01 <soupdragon> regarding CPS
15:08:19 <soupdragon> I mean writing something like
15:08:47 <soupdragon> rather than add x y = a <- x ; b <- y ; return (a + b)
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15:09:07 <soupdragon> you can do (define (add x y) (+ (x) (y)))
15:09:09 <oerjan> *= do
15:09:52 <oerjan> well that's just strict evaluation...
15:11:35 <oerjan> (awkward above means something like: it needed oleg kiselyov to do it)
15:12:01 <soupdragon> is it (just strict evaluation)
15:12:06 <soupdragon> ?
15:12:15 <oerjan> ok maybe not entirely
15:14:12 <soupdragon> yeah I think there's a link with classical logic because of double negation monad being something to do with reifed continuations
15:14:41 <soupdragon> I'd like to try and make sense of that
15:15:02 <oerjan> negation corresponds to continuation, yeah
15:15:34 <oerjan> and double negating everything in intuitionistic logic turns it into classical
15:16:02 <soupdragon> ¬¬-Monad = record
15:16:02 <soupdragon> { return = contradiction
15:16:02 <soupdragon> ; _>>=_ = λ x f → ¬¬-drop (¬¬-map f x)
15:16:02 <soupdragon> }
15:16:06 <soupdragon> just found that
15:16:32 <soupdragon> but I don't understand this code
15:16:40 <oerjan> well then we are two
15:17:47 <oerjan> i suppose the monad type would have to be something like M a = M ((a -> Void) -> Void)
15:17:50 <soupdragon> how irritating, what the hell is going on in this file
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15:18:48 <oerjan> oh of course that _is_ Cont
15:18:55 <oerjan> (or Cont Void)
15:19:06 <soupdragon> alright so Cont Void ~ double negation
15:19:42 <soupdragon> so you can prove things like LEM inside that monad (because the double negation of any classical tautology is intuitionisticaly provable)
15:19:57 <soupdragon> but what's the computational meaning for these things
15:20:12 <soupdragon> it's something to do with CPS?
15:20:42 <oerjan> yes
15:21:30 <oerjan> instance Monad (Cont r) where return a = Cont ($ a) m >>= k = Cont $ \c -> runCont m $ \a -> runCont (k a) c
15:21:46 <oerjan> darn _now_ it joined the lines
15:22:24 <oerjan> put a semicolon before m >>= k
15:23:40 <oerjan> this doesn't seem to resemble that thing you pasted above much
15:24:13 <soupdragon> mines based on map/join
15:24:23 <soupdragon> they're probably the same if you unfold the definitions
15:25:13 <soupdragon> I don't know if I can read ~~ proofs computationally
15:25:17 <oerjan> oh right there's those ¬¬-drop and ¬¬-map things
15:25:51 <soupdragon> maybe if we rewrite the monadic proofs into direct style (using continuations) then they can be read
15:26:44 <oerjan> well what >>= does is simply continuation passing, really
15:27:08 <soupdragon> I don't know what that is
15:27:17 <oerjan> CPS?
15:27:57 <oerjan> you pass to every computation a function that it will call with the final result when finished
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15:28:23 <soupdragon> alright
15:29:20 <oerjan> this leaves that computation free do do something _other_ than call it at the end, which allows for non-local exits
15:32:28 <oerjan> true weirdness appears when you allow for using a continuation after escaping the code that created it, and you can then even call it more than once... this is necessary for such AMB stuff, i think
15:33:59 <oerjan> (any continuation becomes a non-local exit/return when you use it at any point other than at the end of the computation that first received it)
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15:35:32 <oerjan> actually for that weirdness add /reentering to that...
15:35:33 <ehirdiphone> duck halitosis
15:35:48 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: is there a pun in that?
15:36:28 <ehirdiphone> aorta, a cloud of fury.
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15:37:02 <ehirdiphone> ten pin bowling's pluralistic mother
15:37:34 <ehirdiphone> time travel as tachyon socialism
15:37:57 <ais523> continuations are easier to implement in some languages than others
15:38:20 <ehirdiphone> temperature syzygy
15:38:42 <ais523> I love the word syzygy
15:38:46 <soupdragon> I don't get the computational interpretation of classical proofs
15:38:49 <ais523> it's won me huge numbers of Hangman games
15:38:58 <soupdragon> there opaque to me it is irritating
15:39:15 <ehirdiphone> talcum powder, a ritualistic automotive agent
15:39:23 <ais523> (mostly because the other person gives up in despair when they have -y-y-y with five guesses left)
15:40:34 <ehirdiphone> evil evil twin, with two goatees: cannot birth the regular twin in intuitionistic goateeism
15:41:12 <ehirdiphone> tasers' wet wind
15:41:37 <soupdragon> (\mu \beta.u)v \; \triangleright_c \; \mu \beta.u \left [ [\beta](w v)/[\beta] w \right ]
15:41:43 <soupdragon> whatever that means
15:41:56 <ehirdiphone> traction fire and company
15:42:33 <ehirdiphone> talisman inferiority
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15:44:07 <soupdragon> runCont : ~~p -> p
15:48:37 <oerjan> more or less
15:50:16 <oerjan> hm wait no
15:50:30 <oerjan> it's really runCont : ~~p -> ~~p
15:50:47 <oerjan> it's nothing more than a type wrapper
15:50:54 <oerjan> *unwrapper
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15:52:09 <soupdragon> runCont : ~~p -> p is ridiculous
15:52:32 <soupdragon> imagine trying to run ~~Integer -> Integer
15:52:34 <oerjan> also the meaning of ~ varies. for Cont a it's really (-> a)
15:52:56 <oerjan> (recall Cont takes two type args)
15:53:44 <oerjan> while you could use Void, that would not allow you do get _any_ result out of the monad
15:55:20 <soupdragon> so it is worth just ignoring the computational interpretation of classical proofs?
15:55:45 <soupdragon> if p proves ~~P then you might as well just replace p with a placeholder *
15:56:06 <oerjan> huh?
15:57:34 <oerjan> p -> ~~p holds intuitionistically
15:58:41 <soupdragon> p proves ~~P meaning p : ~~P
15:58:50 <soupdragon> you might as well write * : ~~P
15:58:58 <soupdragon> since looking at p doesn't tell you anything
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15:59:26 <oerjan> is there some difference between p and P here?
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15:59:45 <soupdragon> yes
16:02:06 <oerjan> well what? because saying that p : ~~q implies anything : ~~q is patently false
16:04:01 <oerjan> ~~q is a function that takes a ~q. ~q is a function that takes a q. and if you don't have a q to start with, you cannot pass anything to that ~q, so you cannot construct a ~~q to satisfy it.
16:07:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is ~ here? ¬?
16:07:55 <oerjan> yeah
16:08:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, and the : ?
16:08:20 <AnMaster> is it → for implies
16:08:23 <AnMaster> or what
16:09:11 <oerjan> um almost, but at a different logical level. i think it may be called judgement, but i'm not quite sure
16:09:32 <oerjan> that doesn't make grammatical sense
16:09:39 <AnMaster> no it doesn't
16:09:41 <oerjan> p : ~~q as a whole is a judgement
16:10:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, and what does it mean
16:10:06 <oerjan> or wait is that only for expression : type
16:10:16 <oerjan> (type judgement)
16:10:17 <AnMaster> and what is the truth value table for it
16:10:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: this is _intuitionistic_ logic, no truth table
16:10:49 <oerjan> also, i said it is at a higher level
16:10:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, explains why the stuff above made no sense
16:11:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, but wouldn't two ¬ cancel each other out?
16:11:24 <AnMaster> in your ~~q above
16:11:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: not in intuitionistic logic. that's the major difference, in fact
16:11:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is "not not" supposed to mean in that case
16:12:28 <oerjan> ~ = not provable that, is one way of thinking of it
16:12:39 <AnMaster> ah okay
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16:12:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it have a classical not as well?
16:12:54 <oerjan> er wait
16:13:02 <oerjan> i'm lying
16:13:11 <AnMaster> oh?
16:13:26 <AnMaster> lucky for you, it is *after* xmas
16:13:27 <AnMaster> ;P
16:13:36 <oerjan> ~p = you can prove a contradiction from p
16:13:53 <AnMaster> I see
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16:16:08 <fizzie> Less than a year until next christmas, I wouldn't be so blase about lying.
16:16:39 <oerjan> well, it was an accident. i swear! oh wait swearing is wrong too. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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16:33:14 <ehirdiphone> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/al84e/all_in_all_there_are_43_quotes_from_lord_of_the/
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16:33:23 <ehirdiphone> One language to rule them all,
16:33:33 <ehirdiphone> one language to find them.
16:33:35 -!- soupdragon has joined.
16:33:41 <ehirdiphone> One language to bring them all,
16:33:51 <ehirdiphone> and in the darkness evaluate them.
16:34:06 <ehirdiphone> Wait. Bind would have worked better, heh.
16:34:28 <ehirdiphone> Seeing as perl is the lovechild oh so many languages.
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17:34:01 <augur> all that is gold does not glitter?
17:34:10 <augur> isnt that the opposite of the saying?
17:34:24 <ais523> no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true
17:34:25 <AnMaster> augur, of what saying?
17:34:26 <ais523> or equally false
17:34:34 <ais523> AnMaster: "all that glitters is not gold"
17:34:37 <augur> all that glitters is not gold
17:34:38 <ais523> which is just wrong, ofc
17:34:39 <augur> yes
17:34:40 <augur> :|
17:34:44 <augur> its not wrong
17:34:52 <ais523> "not all that glitters is gold" is probably what they /meant/ to say
17:34:56 <AnMaster> ais523 err
17:34:58 <augur> thats what they DID say
17:34:58 <ais523> but it was changed to be a) more poetic, and b) wrong
17:35:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I read the one he wrote as that
17:35:05 <augur> they just have negation scoping higher than quantification
17:35:09 <augur> which is entirely possible, ais523
17:35:11 <AnMaster> instead of what he actually wrote
17:35:12 <AnMaster> XD
17:35:15 <augur> and happens all the time in natural speech
17:35:24 <ais523> augur: no, scope doesn't matter here
17:35:27 <augur> yes it does
17:35:31 <ais523> for "all that glitters is not gold"
17:35:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true <-- how is it equally true?
17:35:39 <augur> yes it is, ais523
17:35:43 <AnMaster> if one is true the other doesn't have to be
17:35:45 <augur> negation scopes higher than quantification
17:35:53 <ais523> augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though
17:35:57 <augur> "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]"
17:36:01 <augur> ais523
17:36:04 <augur> i just said it can
17:36:07 <augur> are you blind
17:36:10 <ais523> no, English doesn't work like that
17:36:14 <augur> yes it does
17:36:17 <augur> for some speakers
17:36:23 <ais523> "I am not hungry" does not mean "something other than me is hungry"
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17:36:29 <AnMaster> oh I see what you two mean
17:36:33 <augur> no you're reading it wrong, ais
17:36:38 <augur> the negation isnt negating "all"
17:36:41 <augur> its negating the whole sentence
17:36:47 <AnMaster> my reply to this:
17:36:47 <augur> "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]"
17:36:52 <AnMaster> English is not a precise language
17:37:03 <AnMaster> if you wanted that, use predicate loging or something
17:37:03 <augur> english is precise, its just ambiguous.
17:37:28 <AnMaster> augur, I think I meant precise in a different meaning here ;P
17:37:32 <augur> ais523: whether YOU can get the reading or not is irrelevant (i cant get it either)
17:37:51 <augur> negation scoping higher than quantification is a well established phenomena of certain dialects of english
17:37:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though <-- postfix notation?
17:38:10 <ais523> AnMaster: more like infix notation for unary operators, is the interpretation that augur's trying to come up with
17:38:18 <augur> im not TRYING to come up with anything
17:38:23 <augur> its a valid reading
17:38:24 <augur> also, ais523, for the record
17:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, XD
17:38:34 <augur> "I'm not hungry" can mean "someone other than me is hungry" with appropriate stress
17:38:44 <AnMaster> ais523, intercal should have unary infix operators
17:38:46 <augur> "No dude, _I_'m not hungry"
17:38:48 <AnMaster> if it doesn't already
17:38:55 <augur> which implies quite clearly, "HE's hungry"
17:39:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it does already
17:39:08 <AnMaster> ais523, which one(s)?
17:39:13 <ais523> all of them
17:39:24 <AnMaster> how are they infix?
17:39:27 <ais523> in fact, INTERCAL-72 allowed no positions other than infix for unary operators
17:39:36 <ais523> and they're infix in that they have to be written one character after the start of what they modify
17:39:41 <ais523> e.g. .1 is a onespot variable
17:39:47 <ais523> .?1 is the xor of a onespot variable
17:39:50 <AnMaster> ah
17:39:51 <AnMaster> right
17:39:52 <augur> ais523, if you want me to try to find some papers on the topic for you i will
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17:41:21 <augur> negation scope is notoriously wonky in english
17:41:38 <zzo38> But, can't you use prefix if the value to deal with is "" and '' like ?!?1' and stuff like that
17:42:00 <zzo38> Negation is all wrong in English, that is why it is never clearly
17:42:16 <ais523> zzo38: recent versions of INTERCAL allow prefix operators too
17:42:23 <ais523> up to one infix, and any number of prefix, unary operators
17:42:27 <augur> zzo38: negation isnt _wrong_ in english, its just that the words can do lots of different things
17:42:34 <augur> its fairly well behaved, however
17:42:41 <augur> its just not well behaved like most people think it is
17:42:43 <ais523> and there are precedence rules to determine whether an operator counts as infix or prefix in expressions like '?.3~.4'
17:43:20 <ais523> (infix in that case, I think)
17:43:24 <zzo38> I thought one of the goals of INTERCAL was to have no precedence
17:43:30 <ais523> it has no operator precedence
17:43:41 <ais523> that isn't operator precedence, though, as it works the same way regardless of which operator you use
17:43:48 <zzo38> OK
17:43:50 <ais523> it's positional precedence
17:44:04 <augur> ais523: do you want me to find you some papers?
17:44:17 <ais523> not particularly
17:44:20 <augur> ok
17:44:39 <augur> well then trust me on this, negation can scope higher than the negation in some dialects of english.
17:44:58 <augur> er
17:45:01 <augur> higher than quantification*
17:45:09 <augur> higher than subject quantification, specifically.
17:45:14 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
17:45:26 <ais523> ooh, assuming ehird's been reading logs, this could be fun
17:45:31 <ais523> he's clearly here to settle arguments
17:45:36 <ehirdiphone> 200m.fi fucking Finns are getting 200Mb/s web
17:45:40 <ehirdiphone> ais523: About?
17:45:52 <ais523> ehirdiphone: "all that glitters is not gold"
17:45:59 <ehirdiphone> Not web, Internet
17:46:00 <augur> ehirdiphone: whether or not some dialects of english can have sentential negation scoping higher than subject quantification
17:46:17 <zzo38> But even gold can glitter?
17:46:17 <ais523> augur: more to the point is whether the scoping can stretch backwards
17:46:19 <ehirdiphone> ais523: What about it?
17:46:21 <ais523> it's not a precedence issue
17:46:24 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how to parse it
17:46:33 <ais523> augur's trying to parse it as "not (all that glitters is gold)"
17:46:38 <augur> no, im not
17:46:42 <ais523> yes you are
17:46:44 <ehirdiphone> not all that glitters is gold
17:46:44 <augur> im saying that SOME people can
17:46:48 <ehirdiphone> That was easy
17:47:00 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I agree with your sentence, but claim it's different from the original sentence
17:47:02 <zzo38> If you mean "not all that glitters is gold", then that is what you should write.
17:47:32 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I hereby slander you a prescriptivist.
17:47:38 <ehirdiphone> And a commie!
17:47:41 <augur> ais523 just doesnt accept the fact that SOME people can say "its not the case that everything that glitters is gold" as "all that glitters is not gold"
17:47:56 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Poetic license. This is Tolkein
17:48:01 <ais523> hmm... isn't "I hereby slander" a contradiction in of itself?
17:48:03 <augur> ais523, would you like me to provide for you a completely coherent compositional semantics for this sentence IN HASKELL-ISH?
17:48:05 <ehirdiphone> He can write however he damn likes
17:48:07 <augur> well, in lambda-calculus
17:48:10 <ais523> given that a slander is only slander if it's false?
17:48:15 <zzo38> OK, I guess if you want to write poetry, you can write it however you want
17:48:35 <augur> zzo38: its not that its poetry
17:48:37 <augur> for fucks sake
17:48:39 <augur> are you listening
17:48:46 <augur> its common in many dialects of english
17:49:07 <augur> and poetry is not a dialect of english
17:49:15 <augur> i mean dialects real people speak in their everyday lives
17:49:19 <ehirdiphone> augur: Stop being an asshole
17:49:23 <ais523> hmm, I think I prefer Latin
17:49:27 <ehirdiphone> You're wildly overreacting
17:49:33 <zzo38> If it isn't poetry, you should probably write what you meant. I mean, there can be dialect but sometimes it is unclear, that is what I mean
17:49:37 <augur> latin has its issues as well, ais523
17:49:41 <ais523> where you could pretty much anagram a sentence, and have it mean the same thing, if it wasn't full of subordinate clauses or something like that
17:49:41 <augur> zzo38: they did write what they meant!
17:49:44 <ais523> it does have issues too
17:49:59 <augur> and in latin, word order isnt as free as you think
17:50:13 <augur> there are constraints on pronominal binding as well as on focus
17:50:23 <ais523> oh, I treat the focus as being an anticonstraint
17:50:33 <augur> focus changes meaning
17:50:33 <ehirdiphone> Can I do a nonsequitur and somehow make an argument based on the fact that Tolkein was a racist?
17:50:34 <ais523> as in, focus-last is a rule that can exist precisely /because/ you can reorder the sentence
17:50:35 <augur> well, implied meaning
17:50:54 <augur> sure, this is true, ais523
17:51:06 <augur> but reordering _requires_ focus changes
17:51:10 <ais523> and I agree about the pronoun thing, although it doesn't come up very often; but that only happens in more complex sentences
17:51:20 <zzo38> So, if you write "This is not a real sentence" and "Real this not is sentence a" then you might understand a bit, even though it is messy, but sometimes it becomes less clearly because it becomes wrongly
17:51:39 <augur> zzo38: whats your point
17:51:40 <zzo38> But, of course, "Real this not is sentence a" is not even as sensible as most things
17:51:46 <ais523> yep, in latin it works better because each word is tagged with where in the sentence it belongs
17:51:49 <augur> its not a grammatical sentence of any dialect of english
17:52:05 <augur> whereas "all that glitters is not gold" _is_ a grammatical sentence of almost every dialect of english
17:52:15 <augur> the question here is not grammaticality but meaning
17:52:24 <zzo38> Yes, it is, but that is not entirely my point
17:52:26 <ais523> augur: not really, it's sort-of a polyglot
17:52:27 <augur> for YOU, the "not" cannot be higher than "all that glitters"
17:52:39 <augur> but for a large number of people it CAN
17:52:45 <augur> because they speak a different dialect of english
17:52:46 <ais523> just like you can treat "this is nt a sentence" as either misspelt english or gramattically correct brainfuck
17:52:51 <ais523> *grammatically
17:53:02 <zzo38> Polyglot, I guess that is a bit of sensible, a bit...
17:53:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: If everyone parses English a certain way it is correct.
17:53:14 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ok, I agree with that
17:53:30 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if that's relevant here, given that there's obviously a disagreement, though
17:53:37 <augur> ais523, zzo38, would you like me to give you a completely compositional derivation for the odd reading?
17:53:40 <augur> in LAMBDA CALCULUs
17:53:45 <ehirdiphone> Only you seem to disagree with the padding of it; even then you understood it. Your objection was entirely prescriptivist in nature.
17:53:47 <zzo38> But of course your misspelt English sentence has no effect or meaning in brainfuck even though it is gramatically correct (it doesn't have mismatched [])
17:53:48 <augur> to prove to you that its theoretically possible at least
17:53:55 <ehirdiphone> Parsing not padding
17:54:04 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Therefore, you're wrong. M
17:54:06 <augur> ehirdiphone: its not even a matter of parsing
17:54:08 <ais523> ehirdiphone: not really; I know what the idiom is meant to mean
17:54:10 <ehirdiphone> / M/d
17:54:17 <augur> structurally speaking the "not" is BELOW the subject of the sentence
17:54:18 <ais523> but it disagrees with the normal parsing rules for every other sentence
17:54:34 <augur> but sentence structure is not sentence meaning
17:54:36 <soupdragon> ;`(
17:54:36 <ais523> so I think that what it actually means is different from what it traditionally means
17:54:43 <augur> inverse scopes are ABOUND in STANDARD english
17:54:49 <ehirdiphone> English, not being neat and exceptionless?
17:54:58 <ehirdiphone> OH GOD MY WORLD IS SHAKEN
17:55:03 <ais523> an exception for /one sentence/?
17:55:09 <augur> ais523: its not ONE SENTENCE
17:55:10 <ehirdiphone> All that is not shaken is not my world.
17:55:12 <ais523> how could anyone know it existed without being taught?
17:55:15 <augur> its not an EXCEPTION
17:55:17 <zzo38> English language is full of exceptions and stuff like that, for letters, words, sounds, sentences, paragraphics, etc
17:55:33 <ais523> augur: it is an exception
17:55:35 <augur> its completely well behaved IN THE DIALECTS WHERE ITS ACCEPTED
17:55:37 <zzo38> Actually I think it is exception
17:55:38 <augur> no its NOT
17:55:45 <augur> its just a DIFFERENT DIALECT
17:55:55 <augur> and IN THAT DIALECT its completely standard for ALL negation to behave this way
17:56:09 <ais523> you mean, there are dialects where (for all x. !f(x)) is inexpressible?
17:56:12 <zzo38> OK, then, it a different dialect. That means, you have to understand what dialect you mean
17:56:37 <augur> ais523: what
17:56:45 <zzo38> Unless you are consistent, which it isn't.
17:56:53 <augur> zzo38: what
17:57:28 <augur> look, why dont i just give you a fucking compositional semantics for this sentence ok? itll demonstrate that theres nothing crazy going on here
17:57:30 <ais523> augur: if "all that glitters is not gold" in some dialect means "not all that glitters is gold" in ais523ese, how do you express the ais523ese "all that glitters is not a black hole" in that dialect?
17:57:31 <soupdragon> if augur wasn't an asshole he would be so cool
17:57:32 <augur> its completely trivial
17:57:40 <ais523> augur: you're trying to answer a different argument from the one I'm making
17:57:45 <augur> ais523: same way, its just ambiguous.
17:58:00 <ais523> that is such a great answer
17:58:09 <augur> thats THE answer
17:58:16 <augur> its the FACT of the matter
17:58:22 <augur> language is ambiguous, get used to it
17:58:22 <zzo38> Do you understand how to fix this template, I fixed it already but it is still broken, I don't know all of the wrong things http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Template:3.5e_Feat
17:59:07 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: augur just assumes (a) he is never wrong, (b) everyone understands and is interested in the details of linguistics, (c) using caps makes more people listen to him
17:59:33 <ehirdiphone> (d) making mocking strawmen of his opponents helps (thanks for reminding me just now augur)
17:59:43 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone it just makes me wince when people I can't stand study the same stuff im into
17:59:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I actually had to look up and read his sentences after you said that
17:59:47 <augur> no ehird, i just assume that ais523 would make more of an argument than NO ITS BAD ENGLISH IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE
17:59:49 <ais523> my brain filtered out the lines in allcaps
17:59:57 <zzo38> At least these sentences are generally less confusing than some other ambiguous sentences, they are also less confusing when used in contents, isn't it?
18:00:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ditto
18:00:08 <zzo38> s/contents/contexts/
18:00:12 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone it's like being allergic to chocolate or something :(
18:00:49 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Become a masochist!
18:00:56 <augur> ehirdiphone: i offered him numerous times to find papers on the very topic of inverse negation scope
18:01:02 <ais523> I'm intolerant (like allergic, but with slightly different symptoms and less fatal if I eat them by mistake) to all sorts of food that people recommend
18:01:04 <ehirdiphone> Then chocolate will be TWICE as enjoyable!
18:01:06 <ais523> although not chocolate
18:01:14 <ehirdiphone> augur: You know he can't read those papers
18:01:21 <augur> i also offered numerous times to show how its not illogical, nor does it require WEIRD parsing
18:01:27 <ehirdiphone> You know he doesn't give a shit about Reading them
18:01:29 <augur> using lambda calculus
18:01:40 <augur> lambda calculus!
18:01:45 <ais523> augur: translating english to lambda calculus generally requires reordering the sentence anyway
18:01:50 <ehirdiphone> You just always want an opportunity to say
18:01:55 <ais523> so therefore you wouldn't actually be making a point at all
18:01:59 <ehirdiphone> Look at me. I know linguistics
18:02:06 <augur> ais523: listen to me ok
18:02:07 <ehirdiphone> We have NOTATION for things
18:02:15 <augur> the grammatical structure of a sentence is not the same as the meaning of a sentence
18:02:21 <ehirdiphone> Allow me to explain it to you!
18:02:29 <augur> words can be in places that dont correspond to their meanings
18:02:43 <soupdragon> rationally, I know it's /my/ problem - but it really seems like other people are causing it
18:02:56 <augur> _all_ language is like this
18:02:59 <ais523> ehirdiphone: gah, took me a few sentences to parse what you meant, I didn't realize immediately you'd elided quote marks
18:03:04 <ais523> and got the use/mention mixed up
18:03:25 <ehirdiphone> """""""
18:03:32 <ais523> um, I think that's better, possibly
18:03:34 <augur> any sentence with two quantifiers is going to have these issues, ais523
18:03:37 <ehirdiphone> I hope this is a sufficient amount of quote marks. L
18:03:42 <ehirdiphone> / L/d
18:03:44 <augur> and there are some sentences where you cannot avoid using inverse scope
18:03:53 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you just deleted your entire line
18:04:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Not in Sam.
18:04:10 <ais523> oh, assumed it was a sed script
18:04:18 <augur> language is not logic
18:04:27 <ehirdiphone> Nope. Sam's language is ed-derived.
18:04:47 <zzo38> But we still understand what was meant by / L/d even if it is incorrect, I guess, even like English languages and stuff too, but sometimes it can be unclear and/or confusing
18:04:49 <ehirdiphone> But it is based on arbitrary regions, not lines.
18:05:12 <augur> zzo38: the sentence in question IS correct tho
18:05:14 <ais523> zzo38: I try not to make assumptions in this channel, it's often a bad idea
18:05:19 <augur> just not in our dialects
18:05:39 <ais523> it's not beyond the realm of possibility that ehird might want to delete an entire line of his own
18:05:56 <ais523> (I'm also vaguely wondering how that typo happened, it isn't a very plausible one...)
18:06:03 <ehirdiphone> I am secretly a 40 year old horse pedophile.
18:06:06 <ehirdiphone> d d d d d
18:06:09 <ehirdiphone> D!!!!
18:06:14 <soupdragon> not any more
18:06:26 <soupdragon> we all know you like shetland ponis
18:06:26 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Iphone keyboard. Send is in bottom right
18:06:34 <ehirdiphone> So m and l are above it
18:06:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: aha, and is it otherwise qwertyish?
18:06:43 <ehirdiphone> Well
18:06:47 <ais523> that would explain a lot
18:06:47 <zzo38> augut: Well, it must be a different dialect then, like you said at first, maybe
18:06:50 <ehirdiphone> M is above send
18:06:56 <ehirdiphone> L is above backspace.
18:07:03 <ehirdiphone> Space space inputs ". "
18:07:13 <zzo38> But just because something is a different dialect, sometimes it can still be confusing, sometimes it is less confused
18:07:14 <ehirdiphone> So I try to remove the last space
18:07:22 <ehirdiphone> But miss and send
18:07:33 <ehirdiphone> ais523: yes, it's qwerty for the letters
18:07:48 <augur> well it IS confusing zzo38, im not saying its not
18:07:56 <augur> but its confusing because its not OUR dialect
18:08:04 <zzo38> augur: Yes.
18:08:22 <ehirdiphone> I never thought I'd be considering using Slackware...
18:08:25 <zzo38> Dialect is part of it, anyways
18:08:39 <ehirdiphone> It's so... unehirdesque.
18:08:42 <ais523> ehirdiphone: why are you considering using Slackware?
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18:08:59 <ais523> you're one of the few people I have put down in my brain as "opinions impossible to guess"
18:09:05 <ais523> which is probably a good thing
18:09:08 <ais523> so I'm genuinely curious
18:09:43 <soupdragon> im a bit jelous of that
18:10:07 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Why not? Slackware seems to meet some criteria I'm searching Linuxspace for: simple, lightweight, unobtrusive. Longterm my own distro is of course preferable.
18:10:30 <ehirdiphone> Arch and Debian sid are the other main contenders.
18:10:42 <ehirdiphone> Also, my opinions are unpredictable? Huh.
18:10:49 <ehirdiphone> Often changing, yes.
18:10:59 <ehirdiphone> But unpredictable in general?
18:11:11 <ais523> maybe I'm just not very good at predicting
18:11:29 <ais523> for instance, I know quite a bit about which fonts you like and dislike, but don't know, say, whether you'd like Deja Vu Sans mono or not
18:11:32 <ais523> *Sans Mono
18:11:45 <ehirdiphone> It's not a bad font.
18:12:13 <ais523> heh, I actually guessed correctly
18:12:20 <ehirdiphone> The best of the DejaVu family, probably. Serif is ugly because it's thin and fat.
18:12:27 <soupdragon> ehird sorry to interrupt you
18:12:28 <ehirdiphone> Sans is just really meh.
18:12:34 <soupdragon> why the hell are you IRCing from a phone??
18:12:43 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Why not?
18:12:50 <soupdragon> because that must suck ?
18:13:15 <soupdragon> compared to a normal computer
18:13:24 <ehirdiphone> I have a good enough keyboard, a nice screen, nick autocompletion and an alright browser.
18:13:32 <ehirdiphone> It's fairly ok.
18:13:35 <soupdragon> okay
18:13:48 <ais523> major issue is that you can't use IRC and the browser at the same time, presumably?
18:13:55 <fizzie> I am, in fact, IRCing from a phone too.
18:13:57 <ehirdiphone> Correcting my typing errors is the main annoying part.
18:14:24 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Colloquy has an uberhack: it embeds its own WebKit shell
18:14:34 <ais523> hmm... what do you call a computer that was clearly originally intended to be a netbook, but then given 3GB of memory so it could run windows 7?
18:14:39 <ehirdiphone> basically a mini safari
18:14:39 <ais523> ehirdiphone: heh
18:14:45 <ais523> that's what I have
18:14:46 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Not surprising that you like Slackware...
18:14:54 <fizzie> (Mostly because I'm a bit sickly at the moment and am trying to rest in bed.)
18:14:59 <ais523> (note: 3GB probably isn't actually enough, the one on display in the shop was showing out-of-memory errors)
18:15:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: £300 at PC Worldbook?
18:15:18 <ais523> £400
18:15:20 <pikhq> It is one of the few distros that tries to do as little as is sane.
18:15:23 <ehirdiphone> Ripoff
18:15:34 <ais523> yes, they were gouging everyone as it was christmas and a new version of windows was out
18:15:41 <ais523> but everyone else was doing the same, for the same reason
18:15:49 <ais523> the adverts were hilarious: "windows 7 is out, time for a new PC"
18:15:52 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: My main misgiving is the, ahem, minimal package manager.
18:16:06 <ais523> it was actually literally that, except for the comma which was replaced by a line break, and the capitalisation
18:16:11 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yeah, that is pretty much *the* problem with it.
18:16:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo").
18:16:52 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Does it actually *have* an uninstall program?
18:17:12 <ais523> ugh, I'm getting CPAN flashbacks
18:17:48 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Slackware doesn't chase dependencies for you. Now THAT would make CPAN hell.
18:18:25 <ais523> what do you mean by "chase dependencies"?
18:18:34 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
18:18:45 <ais523> CPAN effectively runs itself recursively to install dependencies, just with lots of yes/no prompts
18:18:54 <ehirdiphone> If you have an unsatisfied dependency, Slackware just barfs.
18:19:12 <ais523> doesn't that cause dependency hell, just manually?
18:19:13 <ehirdiphone> You have to download and install dependencies one by one.
18:20:00 <ais523> I thought that was the definition of dependency hel
18:20:05 <ais523> *hell
18:20:09 <ehirdiphone> Amusingly if you use static linking, most packages have basically no dependencies.
18:20:34 <ehirdiphone> /usr/share sorta dependencies, sure. Commands they call too.
18:20:40 <ehirdiphone> But not a single library.
18:21:17 <ais523> ick on some cc?
18:21:27 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes.
18:21:40 <ais523> I suppose it doesn't use debian-style nethack-common, nethack-tty, nethack-x11 packaging then
18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone_ has joined.
18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:22:15 -!- ehirdiphone_ has changed nick to ehirdiphone.
18:22:30 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Slackware isn't atarically linked
18:22:33 <ehirdiphone> Atarically
18:22:34 <pikhq> ais523: Slackware tends to just do ./configure&&make&&make PREFIX=dir install&&tar -cf package.tar dir
18:22:36 <ehirdiphone> Ffg
18:22:44 <ehirdiphone> I was just mentioning
18:22:59 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Yhere is SOME pkg metadata.,.
18:23:00 <pikhq> Patch only for bugs.
18:23:02 <ehirdiphone> ...
18:23:05 <ehirdiphone> There
18:23:08 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yes, it's a file in the tarball.
18:23:11 <ais523> wtf is ataric linking?
18:23:18 <pikhq> ais523: Static.
18:23:35 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: They use .txz nowadays
18:23:42 <ehirdiphone> Since the latest release
18:23:46 <ehirdiphone> Not tgzs
18:23:50 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Right.
18:23:57 <pikhq> Same format, different compression.
18:26:30 <soupdragon> I need fixed
18:27:28 <ehirdiphone> Okay, you CAN uninstall with Slackware
18:27:30 <ehirdiphone> And
18:27:36 <ehirdiphone> "As of Slackware 12.2, slackpkg has been added as the official remote package manager."
18:27:56 <ehirdiphone> But it seems to just do download+install and search
18:28:05 <ehirdiphone> No dependency chasing
18:28:17 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: You need... Fixed?
18:28:30 <soupdragon> yeah
18:28:38 <ehirdiphone> wat
18:31:33 <soupdragon> like I can't stand augur because he's so fucking nasty to me
18:31:53 <soupdragon> but logically, the best thing would be to just forget about that and not care
18:32:38 -!- zzo38_ has joined.
18:32:40 -!- zzo38_ has changed nick to zzo38.
18:36:24 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: well sure a perfectly rational agent would have no emotions
18:36:45 <ehirdiphone> but purely rational agents also never have different opinions, long term
18:36:54 <ehirdiphone> pretty boring really
18:37:26 <pikhq> The Slackware package building method is kinda nice. It's called "shell script".
18:37:30 <ehirdiphone> I'm pretty sure it's impossible to totally let anything just bounce off you, emotionally
18:37:35 <augur> ehirdiphone: hes just mistaken. ive never even spoken to him
18:37:59 <ehirdiphone> augur: Im sure you've spoken to fax/quantum_ed.
18:38:04 <augur> who
18:38:24 -!- zzo38 has quit ("In Soviet Russia, sentence says YOU!!!").
18:38:25 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon.
18:38:35 <augur> im not sure!
18:38:43 <augur> i dont really talk in here much
18:38:43 <ehirdiphone> Anyway he never said anything about you talking to him.
18:38:52 <augur> he said i was nasty to him! :|
18:38:57 <ehirdiphone> No.
18:39:06 <augur> uh
18:39:08 <augur> yes?
18:39:09 <ehirdiphone> He said that to him, you are nasty.
18:39:22 <ehirdiphone> At least that is how I parsed it.
18:39:28 <augur> D:
18:39:32 <augur> DAMN YOU AMBIGUITY
18:39:51 <augur> do you watch Qi?
18:39:58 <augur> er, sorry, buzzcocks rather
18:40:20 <ehirdiphone> Those British comedy quizzes. All alike!
18:40:32 <augur> no its just that i spend all of yesterday watching both
18:40:42 <augur> and the reason i bring buzzcocks up is david tennant
18:40:47 <augur> who was also in a recent ep of Qi
18:41:27 <ehirdiphone> I aw typing upside down.
18:41:33 <augur> partially!
18:42:34 <ehirdiphone> Fucking W
18:42:35 <AnMaster> <augur> i dont really talk in here much <-- really? you seemed pretty active recently
18:42:41 <augur> recently!
18:42:44 <augur> like, last few days.
18:43:06 <ehirdiphone> Fhaitstieyisjgjwtijgwgjgktssgksgkssooye
18:43:56 <ehirdiphone> One dislikeable thing about Slackware is the lack of netinstall.
18:44:16 <ehirdiphone> Instead it's a DVD or 73.458063 CDs.
18:44:17 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, was that Fhait... a cry of desperation?
18:44:32 <ehirdiphone> Guisitoywitwtihcugrsypfypftid, Hoyle. Godgoto.
18:44:33 <pikhq> Presumably you could create a netinstall.
18:44:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, btw what is your general opinon on "compile your own kernel" thing
18:44:44 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: And a pony.
18:44:47 <pikhq> Get slackpkg and dependencies.
18:44:51 * AnMaster imagines ehirdiphone would hate that
18:44:54 <pikhq> Install stuff.
18:45:18 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Usually pointless.
18:46:10 <ehirdiphone> Most people do it to lengthen their epenis by three inches and bask in the 5ms a day they save vs the 5 years they put into it in total.
18:46:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well in my case.. two things: 1) cut startup time from 35 seconds to 17.2 seconds. Mostly due to no longer needing initramfs and less modules needed to be modprobed. 2) I needed to patch to work around a regression for my hardware
18:46:30 <AnMaster> sadly upstream is not very interested in fixing that bug it seems
18:46:34 <ehirdiphone> But, omg, it's 3KiB smaller!!!!
18:46:46 <ehirdiphone> 17.2 seconds. Hah.
18:47:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that is from init to login prompt
18:47:09 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, measured with bootchart
18:47:12 <ehirdiphone> Hahahahah.
18:47:22 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, for an old sempron it isn't too bad
18:47:22 <AnMaster> :P
18:48:04 <ehirdiphone> I'm relatively confident my distro will go from just after bootloader to X login in 7 seconds with disk. 13, absolute max.
18:48:10 <ehirdiphone> 5, minimum.
18:48:30 <ehirdiphone> With SSD, 3-7 seconds. Probably 4-5.
18:48:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, good luck, since 8 of those seconds are taken up for me with waiting for dhcp reply
18:48:44 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Parallel init.
18:49:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, mine is parallel, but i need network up early on
18:49:20 <ehirdiphone> You'll be typing your password, and your WM starting, while DHCP goes.
18:49:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and sure if i started everything after mounting file systems in background I could do 5 seconds
18:49:29 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, wm? sorry?
18:49:33 <AnMaster> what has it got to do with things
18:49:34 <ehirdiphone> (Everything else will be finished.)
18:49:47 * AnMaster uses startx manually due to often not starting X at all
18:51:02 <ehirdiphone> Talking to you is infuriating. A constant battle where the only weapon of your opponent is pretending to not understand so they can flount how elite and minimalist and hardcore hacker they are.
18:51:17 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, didn't intend tha
18:51:20 <AnMaster> that*
18:51:30 <AnMaster> just pointing out my measure is to the text login
18:51:36 <AnMaster> not to kdm or gdm or such
18:51:39 <ehirdiphone> So you do it all the time unintentionally?
18:51:52 <ehirdiphone> My sincere condolences for your ailment.
18:52:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, all time is an unfounded generalisation
18:52:11 <AnMaster> I was talking about this convo
18:52:40 <ehirdiphone> Au contrarie it's perfectly founded to me
18:52:43 <ehirdiphone> Anyhow
18:52:52 <ehirdiphone> This is boring
18:52:54 <AnMaster> anyway arch linux init system is crude.
18:53:00 <ehirdiphone> Who boots up anyway
18:53:21 <AnMaster> parralell in part, but rather limited in what you can do
18:53:28 <ehirdiphone> It's an irrelevant stat. Anyone who isn't anmaster just uses suspend.
18:53:33 <AnMaster> it doesn't do dependency stuff for once. It's up to the user
18:53:35 <ehirdiphone> Okay, maybe ais523 too.
18:53:46 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: I just leave the system on.
18:53:48 <ais523> yes, I boot
18:54:03 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, my system is generally on 24/7 for my desktop
18:54:21 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Why? Slow suspend times?
18:54:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but interesting thing is that suspend takes way longer than shut down on my laptop. Which isn't a good thing when you are in a hurry to leave
18:54:38 <AnMaster> resume is faster than boot though
18:54:48 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Nah, just don't bother suspending.
18:54:55 <ehirdiphone> I'll probably include TuxOnIce in my distro for fast suspend/wake.
18:55:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what does it do differently from "stock" kernel
18:55:16 <AnMaster> when suspending I mena
18:55:17 <AnMaster> mean*
18:55:31 <ehirdiphone> Everything. It's an entire replacement suspension system.
18:55:45 <AnMaster> so why hasn't it gone upstream?
18:55:55 <ehirdiphone> Dunno.
18:56:16 <fizzie> I've been shutting the desktop down nowadays; saving the planet, you know. I don't want them to come jail me for melting the ice caps, after all.
18:56:21 <AnMaster> http://www.tuxonice.net/ <-- this looks so 1999 or so
18:56:27 <ehirdiphone> BFS should be upstream too but it isn't
18:56:34 <soupdragon> I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link
18:56:34 <AnMaster> apart from the "flash blocked" bit
18:56:37 <AnMaster> but the design
18:56:39 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Suspend to ram uses like 1W
18:56:56 <AnMaster> an unreadablely drark shadow
18:56:59 <AnMaster> and*
18:57:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, BFS?
18:57:48 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link <-- is that an esolang?
18:57:48 <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:58:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:58:02 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: Yes, and fails to wake up on approximately every twelth time on my system, requiring a hard reset; haven't been interested enough to try finding a fix.
18:58:04 <soupdragon> it's a book :(
18:58:10 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End
18:58:10 <ehirdiphone> Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use.
18:58:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system?
18:58:14 <soupdragon> im trying to downloard this
18:58:17 <AnMaster> oh scheduler
18:58:24 <soupdragon> but the blog links to another blog which doesn't have the god damn link
18:58:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, CFS seems quite good to me
18:58:31 <ehirdiphone> Don't believe me? What?
18:58:32 <AnMaster> never had any issues with it
18:58:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what?
18:58:43 <augur> i have a copy of that book
18:58:56 <augur> havent read it tho
18:59:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, who don't belive who about what?
18:59:01 <ehirdiphone> AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:59:12 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:59:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
18:59:15 <augur> soupdragon, check gigapedia.com
18:59:16 <AnMaster> brain fuck scheduler ;P
18:59:16 <ehirdiphone> You said you don't believe me
18:59:19 <AnMaster> for bfs
18:59:21 <AnMaster> indeed
18:59:26 <ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards
18:59:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also: "<ehirdiphone> AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you" <-- copy failure!
18:59:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no?
18:59:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what are you talking about
18:59:57 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, BFS?
18:59:59 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler.
19:00:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I don't believe you
19:00:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system?
19:00:09 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use.
19:00:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oh scheduler
19:00:20 <AnMaster> [cut out lines related to other discussions]
19:00:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I fail to see any issues there
19:01:32 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, BFS has guaranteed low latency, soft realtime scheduling not restricted to root, and has near optimal CPU usage on a desktop: -j(cores) is the optimal strategy. It turns out higher numbers performing better is because other schedulers are inefficient for desktop (not high spec clusters etc) machines.
19:01:43 <soupdragon> is this a parody of something from the book http://www.seekrainbowsend.com/
19:01:48 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, sounds nice.
19:02:09 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info").
19:02:12 <soupdragon> "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download"
19:02:22 <soupdragon> good for him but what's the URL??
19:02:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you make sense of that "<ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards"
19:02:32 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
19:02:34 <ehirdiphone> What did I miss after "sounds nice"?
19:02:46 <augur> ok guys, im off. ill be back in an hour maybe
19:02:47 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info")
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download"
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> good for him but what's the URL??
19:02:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, can you make sense of that "<ehirdiphone> I said that afterwards"
19:02:51 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone (n=ehirdiph@ has joined #esoteric
19:02:55 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that
19:03:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no "are you sure you want to quit" dialog I guess ;P
19:03:20 <ehirdiphone> I just misread the logs STFU about "said afterwards" >_<
19:03:33 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh right. That explains it :)
19:03:58 <fizzie> AnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together.
19:04:16 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: The quantum foam of nightmares.
19:04:30 <ehirdiphone> Allow me to quote you.
19:04:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzieAnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together.
19:04:35 <ehirdiphone> OH GOD
19:04:46 <ehirdiphone> It's... It's GROWING!
19:05:20 <soupdragon> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/28/vinges-brilliant-rai.html
19:05:25 <fizzie> It's like that... that ball thing that collects crap it runs over of.
19:05:27 <soupdragon> anyone able to figure this out?
19:05:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it seems like quite a bug in that software to not insert any delimiter there
19:05:32 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: did you read the ed stories
19:05:35 <soupdragon> I can't see the big red button
19:05:42 <soupdragon> ehirdiphone a couple of chapters
19:05:48 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: it's only on copy paste
19:05:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, cat nightmare?
19:06:02 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: It gets much, much better
19:06:35 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: around Be Here Now. After that the entire rest is one big plotline
19:06:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm, iirc xchat defaults to inserting <> in copied strings if they are not displayed. You edit a format string or something iirc
19:06:47 * AnMaster hasn't used xchat for a while now
19:06:48 <soupdragon> okayy
19:06:54 <ehirdiphone> (you have to have read all of them to understand it though)
19:06:57 <AnMaster> here we go, *starts it*
19:07:15 <AnMaster> hrrm okay I had format strings set to display <> always
19:07:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Something called Katamari, I believe. Some sort of a game.
19:08:11 <pikhq> Katamari Damacy. Brilliant game.
19:08:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, It was a pun on it. I heard of the game
19:08:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I thought you knew enough Swedish to figure out the pun
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ask oerjan otherwise
19:08:42 <AnMaster> (it was a *bad* pun though)
19:08:57 * AnMaster never played it
19:09:05 <AnMaster> was it 2D or 3D?
19:09:12 <ehirdiphone> 3d
19:09:18 <AnMaster> for what platform?
19:09:23 <ehirdiphone> various
19:09:24 * ais523 tries to imagine 2D katamari damacy
19:09:30 <ais523> I think it /could/ work, just wouldn't be as good
19:09:33 <ais523> and would miss half the point
19:09:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, anything like n64 for emulator I meant
19:09:38 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Easiest game ever
19:09:41 <ehirdiphone> Just hold right
19:09:46 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: More recent
19:09:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, meh
19:09:57 <ehirdiphone> Gamecube emulation is food nowadays
19:09:58 <ehirdiphone> Good
19:10:05 <ais523> I prefer the typo
19:10:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what about 4D?
19:10:07 <ehirdiphone> Wad katamari released on GC?
19:10:14 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, garbage collector?
19:10:17 <ais523> AnMaster: Adanaxis is bad enough
19:10:21 <ehirdiphone> Gamecube.
19:10:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is that the 4D space game thingy?
19:10:32 <ais523> although, I had it working for a while (the graphics card on this netbook doesn't like it...)
19:10:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
19:10:48 <fizzie> Should probably try out the Maemo port of XChat some day; xterm+irssi is not bad, but still.
19:10:49 <AnMaster> hm... that was unexpected *stares at firefox*
19:10:51 <ais523> and I got decent at it, even if I can't visualise what's going on that doesn't stop me playing it
19:10:57 <AnMaster> ais523, you know in firefox, the google box?
19:11:01 <AnMaster> it says google in grey in it
19:11:09 <ais523> umm, it's a search engine box
19:11:10 <ehirdiphone> Yeees...
19:11:11 <AnMaster> and when you click in it, it becomes empty
19:11:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
19:11:14 <ais523> atm it's set to Cuil for me
19:11:14 <AnMaster> however
19:11:19 <ais523> and so says Cuil in grey
19:11:21 <AnMaster> I managed to paste Adanaxis there
19:11:24 <AnMaster> so it said:
19:11:27 <ehirdiphone> ais523: O_O
19:11:27 <AnMaster> GoogleAdanaxis
19:11:29 <AnMaster> in grey
19:11:32 <ais523> ehirdiphone: what?
19:11:33 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Why on earth?
19:11:35 <AnMaster> can't reproduce it
19:11:39 <AnMaster> but strange bug anyway
19:11:47 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Katamari's been on the PS2, PS3, and the 360.
19:11:49 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ever since Google started personalising searches for everyone
19:12:17 <pikhq> The two noteworthy ones are for the PS2.
19:12:17 <ais523> if everyone's going to get different Google results, it's going to be pretty much impossible to tell people to just google something
19:12:17 <pikhq> (after that, there was much less acid involved)
19:12:17 <ehirdiphone> ais523: clearly you should use bing
19:12:19 <ehirdiphone> At least bing is a useable search engine
19:12:23 <ais523> I don't actually trust any of the search engines
19:12:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no, yahoo!
19:12:33 <ehirdiphone> Yahoo is bing
19:12:33 <AnMaster> or altavista :D
19:12:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh damn
19:12:37 <ehirdiphone> Remember?
19:12:38 <ais523> besides, I'm used to not getting useful results from them, Cuil doesn't massively hurt
19:12:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about altavista
19:12:46 <AnMaster> what happened to it
19:12:51 <ehirdiphone> nothing
19:12:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I actually used to use it well after Google became popular
19:12:59 <ais523> because it did a lot more of a literal search than Google did
19:13:03 <AnMaster> ais523, which one? altavista?
19:13:06 <ais523> yes
19:13:08 <AnMaster> hm
19:13:14 <ais523> then they tried to improve their results, and just became like Google but worse
19:13:18 <ehirdiphone> Actually I'm getting sick of google too
19:13:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so it is just a almost unused website?
19:13:32 <ais523> a perfectly literal search engine, I'd find rather useful
19:13:47 <ehirdiphone> I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt
19:13:49 <ais523> yes, it's trivial to manipulate the results, but people are going to be asking different sorts of questions
19:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. Sometimes I find the suggestions useful, not most of the time
19:14:27 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt <-- I know nothing about this. So who is that person?
19:14:47 <ehirdiphone> Google/Wikipedia Watch madman.
19:15:05 <ais523> wow, AltaVista's results for INTERCAL > Google's results for INTERCAL
19:15:06 <ehirdiphone> You've probably come across google watch.
19:15:34 <ais523> 10 relevant results > 6 relevant results
19:15:38 <ais523> on the first page
19:16:03 <ehirdiphone> Scroogle is also quite slow especially via https and doesn't do image search
19:16:05 <ais523> (Wikia Search, while it was still up, managed hundreds of relevant results on the first page, as it kept showing more results as you scrolled, but that's kind-of cheating)
19:16:15 <ais523> ehirdiphone: doesn't it also violate Google's terms of service?
19:16:17 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> You've probably come across google watch. <-- no
19:16:30 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Who cares (yes, you)
19:16:38 <ais523> yes, me
19:16:53 <ehirdiphone> Guess who doesn't care that you care
19:16:55 <ais523> also, if it ever became popular, Google would just either technologically-block, or sue them
19:17:08 <ais523> maybe both
19:17:38 <ehirdiphone> Anmaster: he hates google because his site wasn't popular on it
19:17:59 <ehirdiphone> He hates wikipedia because they wouldn't delete his page
19:18:13 <ehirdiphone> From these come google-watch.org
19:18:19 <ehirdiphone> And the same for wikipedia
19:18:23 <AnMaster> hm
19:18:26 <AnMaster> okay
19:18:46 <ais523> those sites are actually in my "wouldn't visit except via TOR" category, he's that sort of a madman
19:18:47 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, both sites *does* have faults, but I guess he doesn't stay at those only
19:19:10 <ehirdiphone> He is very crazy. He ran a secret logbot in #wikipedia and evaded them banning it
19:19:18 <AnMaster> I see
19:19:29 <ais523> thus breaking Freenode's TOS too
19:19:38 <ehirdiphone> Then he sieves through the logs and goes batshit over people calling him crazy in then
19:19:40 <ehirdiphone> Them
19:19:58 <ehirdiphone> ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself
19:20:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, he could just park an idle client in there with logging turned on. Nothing ilegal in idling
19:20:14 <ehirdiphone> Nobody else here cannot separate law from morality
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19:20:28 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: He publishes the logs.
19:20:44 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself <-- quoting you about zzo: stop destroying his differences
19:20:45 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I can; I think it's sometimes moral to break the law, and there are definitely things that are immoral but legal
19:20:59 <AnMaster> well not exact-wording
19:21:05 <AnMaster> s/-/ /
19:21:21 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: zzo is fun, this is just disturbingly obedient
19:21:22 <ais523> however, it's pretty rare that you get a situation where breaking the law is morally correct
19:21:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm
19:21:35 <ais523> and if it happens, there's probably something wrong with the law
19:21:58 <AnMaster> also private logging isn't forbidden anywhere
19:22:06 <AnMaster> public logging are in some channels
19:22:10 <ais523> ehirdiphone: true or false opinion: ideally, the law should be designed in such a way that it's never morally correct to break it
19:22:24 <ais523> (I agree that this is hopelessly idealistic, but if it were possible?)
19:22:24 <Pthing> umm
19:22:45 <ais523> AnMaster: all Freenode channels that don't explicitly warn of public logging, public logging is banned
19:22:49 <Pthing> false
19:22:53 <Pthing> i think definitely false
19:22:55 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
19:23:11 <ehirdiphone> "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax
19:23:15 <ais523> Pthing: interesting; what's your reasoning? (not attacking, just curious)
19:23:26 <Pthing> my reasoning is anti-hubristic
19:23:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: a good quote; I think it fails to take corporations into account, but is largely correct wrt individuals
19:24:01 <Pthing> law is a more rigid instrument than morality
19:24:15 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, you clearly do not fall under good per it, so are you bad?
19:24:26 <Pthing> there is no point trying to make law identical to morality
19:24:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'm not sure
19:24:39 <Pthing> because we already have morality, in all its inconstancy for that
19:24:50 <ais523> I've found contradictions in my own opinions more than once, and have been unable to resolve them
19:24:53 <ehirdiphone> Pthing: My morals are consistent.
19:25:02 <ehirdiphone> (Utilitarianism)
19:25:07 <ais523> ehirdiphone: oh no please no
19:25:15 <ehirdiphone> Your mom.
19:25:22 <ais523> strong utilitarianism is about the worst moral system you could imagine
19:25:27 <Pthing> ehirdiphone, yeah sure whatever
19:25:30 <ais523> apart from one that's actively bad
19:25:35 <Pthing> why not just be a christian if you're going to play identity games like that
19:25:45 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You are wrong.
19:25:45 <ais523> as it tries to sum incommensurable values
19:25:51 <Pthing> you can have meetings about how great utilitarianism is and sing songs about it
19:26:00 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how can you compare the happiness of one person to the happiness of another?
19:26:07 <ehirdiphone> Pthing: By using names I am religious?
19:26:13 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You don't.
19:26:18 <ais523> Pthing: do you know what utilitarianism /is/?
19:26:20 <ehirdiphone> ais523: You compare utility.
19:26:23 <Pthing> yes >:|
19:26:27 <ais523> ehirdiphone: well, yes
19:26:31 <ehirdiphone> Utilons, etc.
19:26:38 <Pthing> the problem is ehirdiphone being all about "my morals"
19:26:39 <ais523> but I don't think people have a scale of utils you can just go and measure
19:26:50 <ehirdiphone> Of course, in practice you must make estimates and judgement.
19:26:59 <ais523> and even if you could, you have feedback-loop issues
19:27:04 <ehirdiphone> Utilitarianism is the measuring stick.
19:27:11 <ais523> in that many people get upset by what they think is immoral behaviour
19:27:14 <Pthing> the other reason
19:27:17 <Pthing> why i think it is false
19:27:19 <ais523> and you need to take that into account in your calculations too
19:27:22 <Pthing> is because this is false idealism
19:27:28 <Pthing> all that exists in this case is practice
19:27:35 <Pthing> it's not like it's mathematics or anything
19:27:43 <ehirdiphone> Often it is fairly clear cut.
19:27:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: if enough people were upset by the thought that some people used utilitarian morals, would you stop being a utilitarian?
19:28:28 <Pthing> steady on
19:28:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I would go for an alternative: hide my utilitarianism, attempt to remove this upset, etc.
19:28:36 <Pthing> he didn't go *that* far down the identity game
19:28:43 <Pthing> he just said his *morals* were utilitarian
19:28:44 <Pthing> not him
19:28:46 <ais523> ehirdiphone: heh
19:28:49 <Pthing> that is another level of terrible
19:28:56 <ais523> Pthing: err, I'm not sure if there can semantically be a difference
19:29:06 <Pthing> i do!
19:29:23 <ehirdiphone> A person whose moral system is utilitarianism is a utilitarian.
19:29:29 <ais523> as in, it seems to be an antitautology to have someone who has utilitarian morals but isn't a utilitarian
19:29:45 <ais523> unless they were unaware of their own morals, I suppose
19:29:48 <Pthing> yeah
19:29:51 <Pthing> that is basically it i guess
19:30:01 <Pthing> Being A Utilitarian is an identity thing
19:30:11 <ehirdiphone> No it's not.
19:30:15 <Pthing> it is!
19:30:21 <ais523> ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it
19:30:23 <ehirdiphone> Maybe in wanker philosopher groups.
19:30:30 <Pthing> it is a wanker philosophy term
19:30:35 <ehirdiphone> I do not belong to those groups.
19:30:37 <Pthing> because it is wanking philosophy
19:31:04 <ehirdiphone> Talking to Pthing continues to further the notion that talking to him is fruitless.
19:31:27 <Pthing> where philosophy is involved, mostly!
19:31:43 <ais523> utilitarianism is, to me, an attempt to apply economic principles to morals
19:31:49 <ehirdiphone> I am a utilitarian. I call myself that because it is what I am.
19:32:04 <ais523> so it's going to fail at least to the extent that the models economists use are inapplicable to the real world, so it's impossible to work out how to apply it
19:32:05 <Pthing> that is precisely what it means to be an identity thing :|
19:32:10 <Pthing> "I am x"
19:32:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it <-- huh? aren't those equivilent?
19:32:12 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, i find any deontological system unacceptable.
19:32:25 <ais523> ugh, I've forgotten what deontological systems are
19:32:28 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they aren't
19:32:28 <ehirdiphone> ais523: As it can lead to truly horrible results.
19:32:31 <ais523> oh, yes they are
19:32:38 <AnMaster> ais523, typo?
19:32:39 <ais523> sorry, I really screwed up that sentence
19:32:41 <ais523> yes, typo
19:32:43 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Actions can be immoral no matter what their results.
19:32:46 <Pthing> when you say things like that, you are linking yourself with various kinds of philosophical wankery floating out there in platonic heaven
19:32:50 <AnMaster> ais523, so what should it have been?
19:33:12 <ehirdiphone> ais523: So murdering one person to save a billion could be morally unacceptable.
19:33:18 <ehirdiphone> ais523: This is abhorrent.
19:33:22 <ais523> AnMaster: get rid of one of the repeats of "believe", then adjust the sentence to be grammatically correct
19:33:46 <ehirdiphone> That's what deontological moral systems are.
19:33:47 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'd say with the definition of "action" you're using, you're pretty obviously correct
19:34:01 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I disagree with it
19:34:08 <ehirdiphone> I was just defining it for you
19:34:15 <ais523> ehirdiphone: no, I mean you're correct in that it's abhorrent
19:34:20 <Pthing> OR ELSE
19:34:21 <ehirdiphone> Ah.
19:34:28 <Pthing> if not with the wankery, it is a *social* thing
19:34:32 <AnMaster> ais523, which "believe"?
19:34:36 <ais523> it's also possible to define an action as including all relevant context
19:34:40 <Pthing> and so you are linking yourself to other people who claim the same identity
19:34:40 <AnMaster> there are three to select from + one "believes"
19:34:44 <ais523> AnMaster: any, the sentence means the same thing whichever one you remove
19:35:06 <ais523> well, not quite
19:35:12 <ais523> but it makes the point equally well whichever you remove
19:35:13 * AnMaster drops the first one
19:35:26 * AnMaster looks at the messed up grammar
19:35:56 <ais523> <esr> INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was.
19:36:00 <ais523> I disagree
19:36:02 <AnMaster> actually dropping "believe they" makes much more sense
19:36:12 <ais523> hmm... is that esr, or just quoted by him?
19:36:23 <ais523> ah
19:36:32 <AnMaster> <ais523> <esr> INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. <-- is he contradicting himself there?
19:36:34 <ais523> <Alexander Garret, quoted by esr> INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was.
19:36:43 <ais523> *Garrett
19:36:59 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not a self-contradiction
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19:37:12 <ais523> it's of the form "a, and I couldn't convince you of not a"
19:37:12 <ehirdiphone> Ducks
19:37:26 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Not a and couldn't a
19:37:30 <ehirdiphone> Actually.
19:37:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: equivalent, just redefine a
19:37:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well not formally logical contraction. But a bit confusing in normal language
19:37:51 <ais523> unless you're using intuistic logic or something like that
19:38:01 <ehirdiphone> Hey I wonder if http://catseye.tc/ had any new fancy stuff
19:38:05 <soupdragon> unless you're using intuistic logic or something perverted like that
19:38:06 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I know.
19:38:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, seems so
19:38:27 <ehirdiphone> Oh baby, infer my Haskell types.
19:38:45 <AnMaster> Latest news: 2009.1229: Our last language of the aughts: ZOWIE. Read more on our news page, or subscribe to our RSS feed.
19:39:00 <ehirdiphone> http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/doc/zowie.html
19:39:00 <ais523> hmm, never heard of Etcha
19:39:08 <AnMaster> aughts?
19:39:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what is etcha?
19:39:20 <soupdragon> 00's
19:39:38 <ais523> AnMaster: according to Cat's Eye, BitChanger adapted to turtle graphics
19:39:40 <AnMaster> oh thought it was naughts
19:39:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I see
19:40:33 <AnMaster> argh
19:40:47 <AnMaster> kdebase on arch linux pulls in mysql
19:40:49 <AnMaster> wth
19:41:51 <pikhq> Probably because it depends on Qt, and they built Qt with MySQL support, for the sake of Amarok (which needs *a* SQL engine in Qt)
19:42:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, QT has an optional dep on mysql
19:42:11 <AnMaster> but this is not optional
19:42:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: WTH.
19:42:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah it seems to be akonadi
19:42:36 <AnMaster> whatever that is
19:42:42 <ehirdiphone> "The secondary design goal of ZOWIE was to strike the perfect balance between It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World and The Party. It is generally considered a morbid failure in that regard, what with not being a madcap 60's movie and all."
19:42:48 <pikhq> Ah.
19:43:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, which I surely have no use of for krita or similar
19:43:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, but why the mysql server
19:43:41 <AnMaster> why not just the client library
19:44:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, also: Nothing will make me install mysql ever
19:44:34 <AnMaster> and krita on ubuntu doesn't need it
19:45:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "huh"
19:48:09 <ehirdiphone> "Also, I can now say I've worked on a language project for every letter of the Roman alphabet. I'm so happy."
19:48:39 <ehirdiphone> Huh. Chris Pressey sez that zzo's name is Aaron.
19:49:35 <ehirdiphone> "Pixley is also (depending on how you count them) my 50th programming language (that I'll admit to!) This puts me squarely in the ballpark of Wouter and Aaron, and suggests that I plan to be personally responsible for a significant fraction of the next 700 programming languages."
19:49:51 <ehirdiphone> Links to User:Zzo38 on our wiki
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19:54:22 <SimonRC> I just picked a lock for real.
19:54:46 <SimonRC> it was admittedly a really shitty thing on a floppy disk box
19:55:14 <SimonRC> but I actually opened it by just wigging a pin around and twisting
19:55:57 <SimonRC> *wiggling
19:59:45 <SimonRC> and, I suppose, knowing a little about how locks work
20:00:46 <Pthing> like
20:00:53 <Pthing> "if you stick a pin in them and wiggle, sometimes they open"
20:04:09 <SimonRC> nah, I was trying to push a certain bit if the lock
20:04:13 <SimonRC> but not much more than that
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21:39:39 <zzo38> Do you know some things about copyright law? Icosahedral RPG has its own license but someone else says it has to be the OGL, I don't know everything about the OGL
21:43:53 <uorygl> What's your question?
21:45:28 <zzo38> My question is why it is or is not has to be the OGL or not.
21:45:42 <uorygl> Why would it have to be the OGL?
21:46:07 <zzo38> I am not using OGL material, yet someone said I have to license my work under the OGL anyways because it is "similar". Yet, even other similar things are not by OGL
21:46:54 <zzo38> Here is the Icosahedral RPG license, for reference: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/license.irm And the OGL, for reference: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/OGLv1.0a.rtf
21:47:07 <uorygl> Because it's similar to what?
21:48:19 <uorygl> If something is released under multiple licenses, you can pick whichever one you like the best.
21:48:27 <zzo38> Similar to D&D. But D&D has been written by many times ago, and there are many other similar things, such as ADOM and various other games, including RPGs and others.
21:48:37 <zzo38> I'm not talking about multiple license.
21:49:03 <uorygl> I'm guessing D&D is released under OGL.
21:49:05 <zzo38> I mean that apparently my work is similar enough that it needs to be under the OGL, but actually my work is written independently, although there are a few similarities
21:49:17 <zzo38> I'm not using text from the D&D rule books
21:49:21 <uorygl> Well, I'm pretty sure that game mechanics are not covered by copyright.
21:49:34 <uorygl> Artwork and text and code and stuff are. Game mechanics would have to be covered by patent.
21:50:54 <zzo38> And the game mechanics are not even the same. They are just have a few similarities. And I'm not using their text or their art. Even if I do have art, the included art will not use the Icosahedral RPG license (or the OGL). It doesn't use code either, but there are a few simple equations which are isomorphic to the D&D ones
21:51:12 <zzo38> (Even though D&D rules does not even explicitly have any equations)
21:51:38 <pikhq> Game mechanics are not even copyrightable.
21:51:44 <pikhq> Only the specific writing of them.
21:52:05 <pikhq> Oh, and there are bits like trademarks and such...
21:52:06 <uorygl> Well, what similarities are there?
21:53:06 <zzo38> Only a few vague similarities in the way the rules work, but the rules are actually different.
21:53:24 <zzo38> Also, it uses a few similar terminologies, but not the ones that are trademarked
21:53:37 <uorygl> Well, you can't copyright a vague similarity.
21:54:30 <pikhq> Unless you're using something that's patented, you're good.
21:54:42 <pikhq> (no D&D mechanics are patented, FWIW)
21:54:47 <zzo38> I know that, but when asking for help about the introduction text (intro.irm) someone said that it has to be OGL, possibly because they don't understand copyright?
21:55:03 <pikhq> They're bloody well clueless.
21:55:15 <zzo38> I told them about ADOM and stuff, they say ADOM is irrelevant because it was made before the OGL, for one thing.
21:55:36 <zzo38> Well, I will write the Icosahedral Role Playing Game Rulebook anyways, and then we can see, right?
21:56:05 <zzo38> Also, is the license I used is it workable?
21:57:08 <uorygl> Hmm...
21:57:12 <pikhq> Just a moment.
21:58:27 <uorygl> Do you have a particular reason for not using an existing license?
21:59:27 <pikhq> zzo38: Poorly worded, but workable.
21:59:55 <zzo38> Can it be worded better? How should I word it better?
22:00:16 <pikhq> Be very exact.
22:00:18 <uorygl> Well, it uses the phrase "restricted by this license". Licenses don't restrict; they allow.
22:01:58 <uorygl> The default state is that people can do very little with your work, and a license lists some additional things that people are allowed to do.
22:02:31 <ais523> generally, you say "you have a conditional licence to do X, provided that:"
22:03:06 <zzo38> I see what you are refering to, part 7, about creations which incorporate it indirectly.
22:03:18 <zzo38> How should it be worded more proper?
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22:08:15 <uorygl> Well, you could say that those things "may be used and distributed by their creators in any way with no restrictions whatsoever".
22:08:48 <zzo38> The intention is that if someone creates a new spell for Icosahedral RPG, and it has a trademarked name, they still have to allow other people to copy that spell to their own work even if they have to rename it. It should be clear what you have to rename it to, so that it can be used by other people clearly what you refer to.
22:09:08 <ais523> zzo38: generally you should ask a lawyer about this sort of thing
22:09:22 <ais523> if you need to make a licence watertight
22:10:49 <zzo38> Of course, new spell is just one example, it would also apply to new feats, classes, game rules, creature stat blocks, etc. But that if someone adds flavor text, or art, etc, they can do so however they want to.
22:11:12 <uorygl> The best way may be to take an existing license and modify it so that it matches what you want.
22:11:45 <uorygl> What problems do you have with the GNU GPL, or the BSD license, or the other GNU licenses, or the Creative Commons licenses?
22:12:51 <zzo38> The GNU GPL is best for software and doesn't do what I have specified. However, I do intend that it is allowed to be relicense under the GNU GPL, in case you want to write software or whatever
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22:13:39 <pikhq> Might I suggest using something similar to the OGL?
22:13:41 <augur> well that was a bit longer than i expected
22:13:42 <zzo38> The BSD license is not restrictive enough; I never use it for my own works. If I want a program to be unrestricted by copyright I make it public domain.
22:14:15 <zzo38> The OGL also has a few problems. For one thing, it isn't quite how I specified, also see the FAQ for a few other problems with OGL: http://www.earth1066.com/D20FAQ.htm
22:14:24 <zzo38> (See C.09)
22:14:43 <zzo38> Basically I want it to be copyleft for rules but not for flavor text and art.
22:15:15 <zzo38> Flavor text and art can be whatever the author of the flavor text and art wants it to be.
22:15:57 <uorygl> Maybe I'll be more specific. What would a Creative Commons license allow that you don't want to allow, or not allow that you do want to allow?
22:16:15 <pikhq> "Similar" includes "like it, but without the problems"...
22:16:51 <zzo38> OK, but how would I do it?
22:17:23 <pikhq> ... With a text editor?
22:17:25 <zzo38> A Creative Commons license does not differentiate between rules and non-rules, for one thing. That's because they aren't designed for RPGs
22:17:39 <zzo38> That isn't what I meant by "how would I do it"
22:17:45 <uorygl> So release the rules under one license and the non-rules under another?
22:17:53 <uorygl> Or, you know, modify them.
22:18:02 <uorygl> You haven't actually answered my question.
22:18:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:18:53 <zzo38> No, no... Any non-rules that are part of the Icosahedral RPG reference documenation still is my this license, but any non-rules which are written by third parties are not required to be copyleft, is what I mean. Rules written by third parties are still under the copyleft of the license
22:19:40 <zzo38> Do you understand what I mean?
22:20:47 <uorygl> So the rules are available under this license, but people can create derivative works of non-rules and release them under any license?
22:21:53 <zzo38> Yes, as long as any rules that are part of their work have to be available under the same license as the core rules.
22:23:52 <uorygl> So yeah, it sounds like you could just release the rules under a copyleft license and the non-rules into the public domain.
22:24:25 <zzo38> OK, I understand.
22:24:42 <augur> uorygl!
22:24:53 <augur> i think YOU havent actually answered MY question >O
22:25:10 <uorygl> augur: you asked a question?
22:25:22 <augur> have you decided how to have names not be predicates
22:25:31 <zzo38> But: My intention is that non-rules can be combined with rules in a single work, in a way which the non-rules are exempt from the copyleft while the rules are still forced by the copyleft.
22:26:08 <zzo38> That's the real only difference from what you have specified.
22:26:53 <uorygl> augur: no, I haven't.
22:28:01 <augur> keep trying :p
22:28:08 <uorygl> zzo38: isn't that a consequence of what I said? If someone includes non-rules in their own work, others will still be able to redistribute the non-rules.
22:28:39 <uorygl> Maybe you want to include a clause in the rules license stating that people must mention the public-domain-ness of the non-rules if they distribute them in conjunction.
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22:30:36 <zzo38> No. I mean, they can distribute non-rules using whatever license the author wants. They are not forced to be public domain. However, if you add rules, the rules are still copyleft, but any non-rules can be under full copyright and can deny other people the right to copy any non-rules added, but they can't deny rights having to do with the rules
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22:31:36 <uorygl> Okay.
22:31:54 <uorygl> Hmm...
22:39:43 <uorygl> Okay. Here's the Creative Commons ShareAlike clause: If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.
22:41:08 <uorygl> Just change that to something like "If you alter . . . compatible license, except that you may distribute the parts of the resulting work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish."
22:42:20 <uorygl> Though that's not the actual clause, that's a summary of the clause.
22:42:59 <uorygl> Well, here's a better idea.
22:43:00 <zzo38> OK, thanks, that makes sense
22:44:15 <uorygl> "These rules are available under the Whatever License. In addition, if from these rules you create a derivative work, you may release the parts of this derivative work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish."
22:45:17 <zzo38> OK.
22:45:30 <uorygl> That way, you don't have the strangeness that occurs when you change a license by specifying a change to the summary of the license.
22:46:09 <zzo38> OK
22:47:51 <zzo38> Will I have to copy in the text of the CC-BY-SA (or whatever)? And if I also want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL, will the text of the GNU GPL have to be included? What if I want to add a clause to optionally change to new versions (where I will specify the new version, which might have additional permissions/restrictions, and new version of CC-BY-SA, and new version of GNU GPL, and so on)
22:48:53 <uorygl> Just saying "CC-BY-SA" and linking to it would be enough. Likewise for the GPL.
22:49:16 <uorygl> You know, the GPL bit seems redundant, unless you consider software to be game rules.
22:50:33 <zzo38> No. I simply want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL so that the rule text can be added to any software with the GNU GPL
22:50:39 <uorygl> As for changing to new versions, perhaps it would be best simply to start releasing new versions of your work under a different license if you want to.
22:50:49 <zzo38> And I know usually it is just linked, but the idea is that if it is printed out as an actual book, that might not do?
22:51:35 <zzo38> The idea is that it can be printed as an actual book as well as being a web-page, wiki, or any other format. (This is one of the things that Icoruma does)
22:51:45 <uorygl> Hmm. I would guess that the GPL would allow you to release the software, alongside documentation and including a documentation browser, without having to release the documentation under the GPL.
22:52:08 <zzo38> OK.
22:52:29 <zzo38> I guess it can do without mentioning the GPL, then.
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