00:08:21 -!- lament has joined. 00:13:52 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 00:38:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:02:27 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:05:48 -!- bsmntbombgrrl has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 01:13:10 coppro: a Rush Hour clone. 01:13:22 uorygl, ? 01:13:58 link? 01:16:15 I have no links, but there are many for the iPhone. 01:16:31 a) I have no iPhone b) I want a game I can play now 01:17:20 coppro, what type of game did you say? 01:17:49 [16:11:42]anyone have a good logic game I can play quickly (like *gasp* Flash?) 01:17:55 was just looking for a time-killer 01:18:01 coppro, logic came. Like minesweeper? 01:18:12 yes, except ideally one I haven't played before 01:18:15 coppro, or sudoko? 01:18:18 :( 01:18:20 spelling? 01:18:25 was hoping for something more complex 01:18:29 * AnMaster needs to fix this shitty dict 01:18:33 Sudoku. 01:18:34 coppro, nethack? 01:18:46 too complex 01:19:00 uorygl, yeah it had no suggestions. And it knows "I recompile" but not "he recompiles" 01:19:10 as in adding an s marks it as unknown 01:19:13 spelling dict fail 01:19:17 coppro, meh! 01:19:25 coppro, hm... 01:19:30 like, think Rubicon 01:19:36 that's a good example of the sort of thing I'm after 01:19:36 If there is a game known as Nethack--, then that. 01:19:43 coppro, oh ubunut? 01:19:45 ubuntu* 01:19:49 apt-get install kiki 01:19:51 iirc 01:20:07 coppro, wait no 01:20:10 What's Rubicon? 01:20:10 coppro, wrong one 01:20:12 oh :( 01:20:28 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:20:30 coppro, apt-get install kiki-the-nano-bot 01:20:32 that was it 01:20:32 hmm.. yeah, pretty sure I don't want a free environment for regular expression testing 01:20:39 coppro, it is a 3D puzzle/logic game 01:20:50 coppro, you steer a small nanobot 01:20:59 cool, thanks 01:21:15 Say, I wonder if Enigma would work on an iPhone. 01:21:16 coppro, it is fun but confusing. Hint: direction of gravity depends on your view point. Nothing else 01:21:26 and you can climb on walls and such 01:21:38 coppro, which leads to some interesting puzzles 01:21:51 neat 01:22:19 coppro, ehird played it for a bit but got frustrated and gave up. I got much farther of course than he did 01:22:34 iirc fizzie or someone else was testing it at the same time 01:22:34 AnMaster: how do you jump? 01:22:48 coppro, sec 01:23:00 wait, it's on the manpage 01:23:02 coppro, depends on keyboard setup :P 01:23:04 holy crap, useful X manpage 01:23:13 iirc I changed it 01:23:14 coppro, hm? 01:23:35 most x programs have useless manpages in my experience 01:23:52 coppro, the xorg.conf and xorg modules/drivers man pages tend to be ok 01:24:03 but that's not an x program 01:24:07 true 01:24:14 also, any way to get it not to mess with the gamma 01:24:16 ? 01:24:52 coppro, unknown, but it switches back when you change window 01:24:57 coppro, iirc there is a setting for it 01:25:05 try "settings" 01:25:20 coppro, but I found it works better in the gamma it wants to use 01:25:45 yeah, it's hideous with my default gamma 01:25:58 coppro, there you go then ;P 01:26:05 coppro, it will clean up after itself 01:26:48 I'm already confused :( 01:27:12 I think I need to hit this switch 01:28:24 oh, found the help 01:28:28 coppro, good 01:28:41 not sure how again 01:28:54 coppro, esc , and enter? 01:29:02 oh, right 01:29:07 so all my assumptions are correct 01:29:09 but something here is wrong 01:29:32 ah, got it 01:29:34 clever 01:33:52 coppro, btw I haven't solved it further than halfway or so 01:39:27 ooh solved another one 01:39:27 night 01:50:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 02:02:31 -!- lament has left (?). 02:07:19 -!- anmaster_l has quit (Connection timed out). 03:04:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:06:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:09:38 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do freaking anything for a new router."). 03:12:48 -!- jpc has joined. 03:18:17 -!- lament has joined. 03:18:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"). 03:18:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 03:45:20 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do freaking anything for a new router."). 03:46:11 -!- jpc has joined. 04:00:13 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:01:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:05:01 -!- Aszstal has quit (Connection timed out). 04:12:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:17:39 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 04:18:11 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:31:24 Yay, I understand the unexpected hanging paradox. 04:32:47 I understand it... 04:32:47 -!- lament has quit. 04:33:26 Yay, two of us understand the unexpected hanging paradox. 04:33:41 it's not that hard to understand 04:34:34 Yay, I understand the Monty Hall problem. 04:34:43 ... 04:36:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:41:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 04:50:21 * Sgeo puts uorygl into Monty Hell 04:53:25 Remind me how the Monty Hell problem goes. 04:54:00 I forgot offhand. Something about dollar bills passing into and out of your hand 04:54:27 Hmm, there is no Monty Hell problem, only a Monty Hall problem, a Monty Fall problem, a Monty Crawl problem, and a Monty Maul problem. 04:54:37 -!- soupdragon has joined. 04:54:54 http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Monty+Hell disagrees 05:05:11 Hmm, that Monty Hell problem isn't a very monty problem. 06:21:30 i'd monty your problem 06:21:31 ;o ;o ;o 06:32:52 gimme more sci fi 06:33:01 * soupdragon creaks 06:33:36 ehird any more novellas 06:33:36 ? 06:51:22 :( 06:55:05 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:06:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:06:49 soupdragon, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect 07:07:00 (spelling?) 07:07:06 I have read it a couple days ago! it is very good 07:07:16 I am thinking maybe I will get some asimov books now 07:14:06 -!- lament has joined. 07:53:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:53:33 -!- Pthing has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:30:57 -!- lament has quit. 08:32:59 soupdragon: I recommend it 08:33:23 soupdragon: read the Empire series; they're quite good and yet generally unknown 08:33:34 okay 08:33:37 cheers 08:34:03 specifically, those are Pebble in the Sky, something, and The Currents of Space 08:34:23 The Stars, Like Dust 08:34:39 oh, also Nightfall 08:34:53 Nightfall is fantastic 09:09:34 -!- lament has joined. 09:16:48 -!- anmaster_l has joined. 09:28:03 -!- lament has quit. 09:52:28 soupdragon: outer join 09:56:37 ?? 10:00:05 xor 10:01:26 oh 10:01:34 the thing is im just xoring booleans, not sets 10:01:58 so in the end it makes sense to just write out an xor table 10:03:53 -!- treesapsatchel has joined. 10:03:59 -!- treesapsatchel has left (?). 10:08:52 -!- adam_d has joined. 10:11:28 *a 10:27:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:29:40 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:44:23 ? 10:48:54 $ host dragon 10:48:54 dragon.lan has address 192.168.0.72 10:48:54 Host dragon.lan not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) 10:48:56 now that was weird 11:10:07 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur"). 11:12:30 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 11:12:47 soupdragon: re scifi I hear good things about the Culture books 11:14:02 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:14:47 soupdragon: but if you haven't read them yet I suggest reading the Ed stories (on qntm.org) 11:15:08 can't speak for how good Fine Structure is 11:15:50 http://qntm.org/?robot1 11:24:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"). 11:29:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:38:02 -!- MizardX has joined. 11:52:27 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 11:53:12 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 11:56:08 soupdragon: a xor 11:56:34 soupdragon: also, a xor b <=> (a or b) and not (a and b) 11:57:10 an xor 11:58:25 it tends to be pronounced "zor" 11:58:35 A xorn. 12:00:57 They say that a xorn knows of no obstacles when pursuing you. 12:01:54 a zor 12:01:57 a zorn lemma 12:02:01 a zorro 12:02:05 a zorba 12:04:55 a zork 12:06:58 a yagon 12:09:58 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 12:39:48 a zorgonzola 12:56:50 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:20:18 soupdragon: so you don't need a truth table for xor 13:22:36 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 13:22:38 Of course you don't. 13:22:47 It's NANDs all the way down. 13:58:35 Except that XOR has special implementation in CMOS that's simpler than via the basic gates. 14:10:55 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:19:02 Hmm. NAND and NOR are universal. What other ops? 14:19:41 Not NXOR; that's just equality and (p==q)==(p==q) is (p==q). 14:20:04 well. (p==(p==q) 14:20:13 ) 14:20:37 Result for p q(y or n): 14:21:18 n n. n 14:21:36 y n. n 14:21:52 n y. y 14:21:58 y y. y 14:22:31 Too lazy to work out what op that is. 14:23:49 ehirdiphone: f _ q = q 14:23:57 -!- Ilari has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:23:57 -!- comex has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:24:06 -!- Ilari has joined. 14:24:07 -!- comex has joined. 14:24:31 Deewiant: Doh >_< 14:24:49 So, NXOR isn't universal. 14:25:06 Deewiant: Btw, you could have also just answered "q" :P 14:25:26 Not as if the parameters ever change. 14:27:12 Yeah, but I figured that that wouldn't be as easily understood. 14:29:50 p&!q is very boring as a CA and only has one truth value, so I doubt it's universal. 14:30:26 I'm fairly certain that only NOR and NAND are. 14:30:47 There's only a limited amount of operators, if there were others we'd know about them. 14:31:17 Then there is two kinds of "unversality": Unversality without having constant logic values and "unversality" with constant logic values. 14:35:27 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness?wasRedirected=true 14:35:33 I guessed as much 14:35:58 My favourite set of functionally completerners is {->, _|_}. 14:36:16 Especially since haskells type system implements it. 14:36:41 -> being -> and _|_ being (forall a. a) 14:36:55 ~p = p -> _|_ 14:37:19 Uh, which of ^ V is and? 14:37:26 Forget the order... 14:37:56 ^ 14:38:21 V is like U for Union 14:39:05 p ^ q = (p -> q -> r) -> r 14:39:34 p V q = (p -> r) -> (q -> r) -> r 14:39:50 And so on. 14:40:37 Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. 14:41:11 ((a -> forall b. b) -> forall c. c) -> a 14:42:32 There all ~~p is really saying is "(p is unprovable) is unprovable" 14:42:51 Which isn't the same as "p is provable". 14:43:22 I am rambling. 14:53:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:54:55 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 14:55:24 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 14:55:28 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 14:57:44 it's not p is unprovable 14:57:56 p implies false 14:59:37 Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. 14:59:40 argh 14:59:46 Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. 14:59:51 I don't know it always makes me sick to think of haskell as a proof system 15:00:17 yes, it's equivalent to the excluded middle, which does not hold in intuitionistic logic 15:02:27 but you can get it if your programming language has continuations 15:04:08 I never really got that, can it be phrased in terms of delimited continuations? 15:04:39 I got cwcc : peirce and pretty simple to prove P \/ ~P from it but I hardly understand it 15:04:44 well _I_ never really got delimited continuations :D 15:05:18 I feel like they are simpler than cwcc 15:05:29 huh. 15:06:04 the main thing that makes me think this is the interaction with monads 15:06:16 like AMB in scheme is basically the list monad 15:06:39 but you can do this direct style notation for monads thanks to delimited continuations in a really methodical way 15:07:55 so maybe there is something to do with a double negation monad 15:08:00 hm but i recall that actually making a monad for delimited continuations was rather awkward, while it's easy with just ordinary continuations... 15:08:01 regarding CPS 15:08:19 I mean writing something like 15:08:47 rather than add x y = a <- x ; b <- y ; return (a + b) 15:08:50 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 15:09:07 you can do (define (add x y) (+ (x) (y))) 15:09:09 *= do 15:09:52 well that's just strict evaluation... 15:11:35 (awkward above means something like: it needed oleg kiselyov to do it) 15:12:01 is it (just strict evaluation) 15:12:06 ? 15:12:15 ok maybe not entirely 15:14:12 yeah I think there's a link with classical logic because of double negation monad being something to do with reifed continuations 15:14:41 I'd like to try and make sense of that 15:15:02 negation corresponds to continuation, yeah 15:15:34 and double negating everything in intuitionistic logic turns it into classical 15:16:02 ¬¬-Monad = record 15:16:02 { return = contradiction 15:16:02 ; _>>=_ = λ x f → ¬¬-drop (¬¬-map f x) 15:16:02 } 15:16:06 just found that 15:16:32 but I don't understand this code 15:16:40 well then we are two 15:17:47 i suppose the monad type would have to be something like M a = M ((a -> Void) -> Void) 15:17:50 how irritating, what the hell is going on in this file 15:18:05 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:18:48 oh of course that _is_ Cont 15:18:55 (or Cont Void) 15:19:06 alright so Cont Void ~ double negation 15:19:42 so you can prove things like LEM inside that monad (because the double negation of any classical tautology is intuitionisticaly provable) 15:19:57 but what's the computational meaning for these things 15:20:12 it's something to do with CPS? 15:20:42 yes 15:21:30 instance Monad (Cont r) where return a = Cont ($ a) m >>= k = Cont $ \c -> runCont m $ \a -> runCont (k a) c 15:21:46 darn _now_ it joined the lines 15:22:24 put a semicolon before m >>= k 15:23:40 this doesn't seem to resemble that thing you pasted above much 15:24:13 mines based on map/join 15:24:23 they're probably the same if you unfold the definitions 15:25:13 I don't know if I can read ~~ proofs computationally 15:25:17 oh right there's those ¬¬-drop and ¬¬-map things 15:25:51 maybe if we rewrite the monadic proofs into direct style (using continuations) then they can be read 15:26:44 well what >>= does is simply continuation passing, really 15:27:08 I don't know what that is 15:27:17 CPS? 15:27:57 you pass to every computation a function that it will call with the final result when finished 15:28:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:28:23 alright 15:29:20 this leaves that computation free do do something _other_ than call it at the end, which allows for non-local exits 15:32:28 true weirdness appears when you allow for using a continuation after escaping the code that created it, and you can then even call it more than once... this is necessary for such AMB stuff, i think 15:33:59 (any continuation becomes a non-local exit/return when you use it at any point other than at the end of the computation that first received it) 15:35:32 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 15:35:32 actually for that weirdness add /reentering to that... 15:35:33 duck halitosis 15:35:48 ehirdiphone: is there a pun in that? 15:36:28 aorta, a cloud of fury. 15:36:50 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:37:02 ten pin bowling's pluralistic mother 15:37:34 time travel as tachyon socialism 15:37:57 continuations are easier to implement in some languages than others 15:38:20 temperature syzygy 15:38:42 I love the word syzygy 15:38:46 I don't get the computational interpretation of classical proofs 15:38:49 it's won me huge numbers of Hangman games 15:38:58 there opaque to me it is irritating 15:39:15 talcum powder, a ritualistic automotive agent 15:39:23 (mostly because the other person gives up in despair when they have -y-y-y with five guesses left) 15:40:34 evil evil twin, with two goatees: cannot birth the regular twin in intuitionistic goateeism 15:41:12 tasers' wet wind 15:41:37 (\mu \beta.u)v \; \triangleright_c \; \mu \beta.u \left [ [\beta](w v)/[\beta] w \right ] 15:41:43 whatever that means 15:41:56 traction fire and company 15:42:33 talisman inferiority 15:42:36 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 15:43:35 -!- MizardX- has joined. 15:44:07 runCont : ~~p -> p 15:48:37 more or less 15:50:16 hm wait no 15:50:30 it's really runCont : ~~p -> ~~p 15:50:47 it's nothing more than a type wrapper 15:50:54 *unwrapper 15:51:41 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:51:59 -!- AnMaster has joined. 15:52:09 runCont : ~~p -> p is ridiculous 15:52:32 imagine trying to run ~~Integer -> Integer 15:52:34 also the meaning of ~ varies. for Cont a it's really (-> a) 15:52:56 (recall Cont takes two type args) 15:53:44 while you could use Void, that would not allow you do get _any_ result out of the monad 15:55:20 so it is worth just ignoring the computational interpretation of classical proofs? 15:55:45 if p proves ~~P then you might as well just replace p with a placeholder * 15:56:06 huh? 15:57:34 p -> ~~p holds intuitionistically 15:58:41 p proves ~~P meaning p : ~~P 15:58:50 you might as well write * : ~~P 15:58:58 since looking at p doesn't tell you anything 15:59:24 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out). 15:59:26 is there some difference between p and P here? 15:59:31 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 15:59:45 yes 16:02:06 well what? because saying that p : ~~q implies anything : ~~q is patently false 16:04:01 ~~q is a function that takes a ~q. ~q is a function that takes a q. and if you don't have a q to start with, you cannot pass anything to that ~q, so you cannot construct a ~~q to satisfy it. 16:07:43 oerjan, what is ~ here? ¬? 16:07:55 yeah 16:08:12 oerjan, and the : ? 16:08:20 is it → for implies 16:08:23 or what 16:09:11 um almost, but at a different logical level. i think it may be called judgement, but i'm not quite sure 16:09:32 that doesn't make grammatical sense 16:09:39 no it doesn't 16:09:41 p : ~~q as a whole is a judgement 16:10:03 oerjan, and what does it mean 16:10:06 or wait is that only for expression : type 16:10:16 (type judgement) 16:10:17 and what is the truth value table for it 16:10:34 AnMaster: this is _intuitionistic_ logic, no truth table 16:10:49 also, i said it is at a higher level 16:10:51 oerjan, oh right, explains why the stuff above made no sense 16:11:18 oerjan, but wouldn't two ¬ cancel each other out? 16:11:24 in your ~~q above 16:11:35 AnMaster: not in intuitionistic logic. that's the major difference, in fact 16:11:54 oerjan, what is "not not" supposed to mean in that case 16:12:28 ~ = not provable that, is one way of thinking of it 16:12:39 ah okay 16:12:43 -!- somebody_ has joined. 16:12:50 oerjan, does it have a classical not as well? 16:12:54 er wait 16:13:02 i'm lying 16:13:11 oh? 16:13:26 lucky for you, it is *after* xmas 16:13:27 ;P 16:13:36 ~p = you can prove a contradiction from p 16:13:53 I see 16:15:19 -!- soupdragon has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:15:21 -!- somebody_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:15:35 -!- soupdragon has joined. 16:16:08 Less than a year until next christmas, I wouldn't be so blase about lying. 16:16:39 well, it was an accident. i swear! oh wait swearing is wrong too. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 16:31:58 -!- somebody__ has joined. 16:32:04 -!- somebody__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:32:34 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 16:32:36 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:32:55 -!- somebody__ has joined. 16:32:56 -!- somebody__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:33:13 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 16:33:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/al84e/all_in_all_there_are_43_quotes_from_lord_of_the/ 16:33:20 -!- soupdragon has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:33:23 One language to rule them all, 16:33:33 one language to find them. 16:33:35 -!- soupdragon has joined. 16:33:41 One language to bring them all, 16:33:51 and in the darkness evaluate them. 16:34:06 Wait. Bind would have worked better, heh. 16:34:28 Seeing as perl is the lovechild oh so many languages. 16:45:55 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 16:58:52 -!- jpc has joined. 17:14:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:30:15 -!- augur has joined. 17:34:01 all that is gold does not glitter? 17:34:10 isnt that the opposite of the saying? 17:34:24 no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true 17:34:25 augur, of what saying? 17:34:26 or equally false 17:34:34 AnMaster: "all that glitters is not gold" 17:34:37 all that glitters is not gold 17:34:38 which is just wrong, ofc 17:34:39 yes 17:34:40 :| 17:34:44 its not wrong 17:34:52 "not all that glitters is gold" is probably what they /meant/ to say 17:34:56 ais523 err 17:34:58 thats what they DID say 17:34:58 but it was changed to be a) more poetic, and b) wrong 17:35:05 ais523, I read the one he wrote as that 17:35:05 they just have negation scoping higher than quantification 17:35:09 which is entirely possible, ais523 17:35:11 instead of what he actually wrote 17:35:12 XD 17:35:15 and happens all the time in natural speech 17:35:24 augur: no, scope doesn't matter here 17:35:27 yes it does 17:35:31 for "all that glitters is not gold" 17:35:33 no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true <-- how is it equally true? 17:35:39 yes it is, ais523 17:35:43 if one is true the other doesn't have to be 17:35:45 negation scopes higher than quantification 17:35:53 augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though 17:35:57 "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]" 17:36:01 ais523 17:36:04 i just said it can 17:36:07 are you blind 17:36:10 no, English doesn't work like that 17:36:14 yes it does 17:36:17 for some speakers 17:36:23 "I am not hungry" does not mean "something other than me is hungry" 17:36:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:36:29 oh I see what you two mean 17:36:33 no you're reading it wrong, ais 17:36:38 the negation isnt negating "all" 17:36:41 its negating the whole sentence 17:36:47 my reply to this: 17:36:47 "it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]" 17:36:52 English is not a precise language 17:37:03 if you wanted that, use predicate loging or something 17:37:03 english is precise, its just ambiguous. 17:37:28 augur, I think I meant precise in a different meaning here ;P 17:37:32 ais523: whether YOU can get the reading or not is irrelevant (i cant get it either) 17:37:51 negation scoping higher than quantification is a well established phenomena of certain dialects of english 17:37:54 augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though <-- postfix notation? 17:38:10 AnMaster: more like infix notation for unary operators, is the interpretation that augur's trying to come up with 17:38:18 im not TRYING to come up with anything 17:38:23 its a valid reading 17:38:24 also, ais523, for the record 17:38:32 ais523, XD 17:38:34 "I'm not hungry" can mean "someone other than me is hungry" with appropriate stress 17:38:44 ais523, intercal should have unary infix operators 17:38:46 "No dude, _I_'m not hungry" 17:38:48 if it doesn't already 17:38:55 which implies quite clearly, "HE's hungry" 17:39:02 AnMaster: it does already 17:39:08 ais523, which one(s)? 17:39:13 all of them 17:39:24 how are they infix? 17:39:27 in fact, INTERCAL-72 allowed no positions other than infix for unary operators 17:39:36 and they're infix in that they have to be written one character after the start of what they modify 17:39:41 e.g. .1 is a onespot variable 17:39:47 .?1 is the xor of a onespot variable 17:39:50 ah 17:39:51 right 17:39:52 ais523, if you want me to try to find some papers on the topic for you i will 17:39:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:41:21 negation scope is notoriously wonky in english 17:41:38 But, can't you use prefix if the value to deal with is "" and '' like ?!?1' and stuff like that 17:42:00 Negation is all wrong in English, that is why it is never clearly 17:42:16 zzo38: recent versions of INTERCAL allow prefix operators too 17:42:23 up to one infix, and any number of prefix, unary operators 17:42:27 zzo38: negation isnt _wrong_ in english, its just that the words can do lots of different things 17:42:34 its fairly well behaved, however 17:42:41 its just not well behaved like most people think it is 17:42:43 and there are precedence rules to determine whether an operator counts as infix or prefix in expressions like '?.3~.4' 17:43:20 (infix in that case, I think) 17:43:24 I thought one of the goals of INTERCAL was to have no precedence 17:43:30 it has no operator precedence 17:43:41 that isn't operator precedence, though, as it works the same way regardless of which operator you use 17:43:48 OK 17:43:50 it's positional precedence 17:44:04 ais523: do you want me to find you some papers? 17:44:17 not particularly 17:44:20 ok 17:44:39 well then trust me on this, negation can scope higher than the negation in some dialects of english. 17:44:58 er 17:45:01 higher than quantification* 17:45:09 higher than subject quantification, specifically. 17:45:14 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 17:45:26 ooh, assuming ehird's been reading logs, this could be fun 17:45:31 he's clearly here to settle arguments 17:45:36 200m.fi fucking Finns are getting 200Mb/s web 17:45:40 ais523: About? 17:45:52 ehirdiphone: "all that glitters is not gold" 17:45:59 Not web, Internet 17:46:00 ehirdiphone: whether or not some dialects of english can have sentential negation scoping higher than subject quantification 17:46:17 But even gold can glitter? 17:46:17 augur: more to the point is whether the scoping can stretch backwards 17:46:19 ais523: What about it? 17:46:21 it's not a precedence issue 17:46:24 ehirdiphone: how to parse it 17:46:33 augur's trying to parse it as "not (all that glitters is gold)" 17:46:38 no, im not 17:46:42 yes you are 17:46:44 not all that glitters is gold 17:46:44 im saying that SOME people can 17:46:48 That was easy 17:47:00 ehirdiphone: I agree with your sentence, but claim it's different from the original sentence 17:47:02 If you mean "not all that glitters is gold", then that is what you should write. 17:47:32 ais523: I hereby slander you a prescriptivist. 17:47:38 And a commie! 17:47:41 ais523 just doesnt accept the fact that SOME people can say "its not the case that everything that glitters is gold" as "all that glitters is not gold" 17:47:56 zzo38: Poetic license. This is Tolkein 17:48:01 hmm... isn't "I hereby slander" a contradiction in of itself? 17:48:03 ais523, would you like me to provide for you a completely coherent compositional semantics for this sentence IN HASKELL-ISH? 17:48:05 He can write however he damn likes 17:48:07 well, in lambda-calculus 17:48:10 given that a slander is only slander if it's false? 17:48:15 OK, I guess if you want to write poetry, you can write it however you want 17:48:35 zzo38: its not that its poetry 17:48:37 for fucks sake 17:48:39 are you listening 17:48:46 its common in many dialects of english 17:49:07 and poetry is not a dialect of english 17:49:15 i mean dialects real people speak in their everyday lives 17:49:19 augur: Stop being an asshole 17:49:23 hmm, I think I prefer Latin 17:49:27 You're wildly overreacting 17:49:33 If it isn't poetry, you should probably write what you meant. I mean, there can be dialect but sometimes it is unclear, that is what I mean 17:49:37 latin has its issues as well, ais523 17:49:41 where you could pretty much anagram a sentence, and have it mean the same thing, if it wasn't full of subordinate clauses or something like that 17:49:41 zzo38: they did write what they meant! 17:49:44 it does have issues too 17:49:59 and in latin, word order isnt as free as you think 17:50:13 there are constraints on pronominal binding as well as on focus 17:50:23 oh, I treat the focus as being an anticonstraint 17:50:33 focus changes meaning 17:50:33 Can I do a nonsequitur and somehow make an argument based on the fact that Tolkein was a racist? 17:50:34 as in, focus-last is a rule that can exist precisely /because/ you can reorder the sentence 17:50:35 well, implied meaning 17:50:54 sure, this is true, ais523 17:51:06 but reordering _requires_ focus changes 17:51:10 and I agree about the pronoun thing, although it doesn't come up very often; but that only happens in more complex sentences 17:51:20 So, if you write "This is not a real sentence" and "Real this not is sentence a" then you might understand a bit, even though it is messy, but sometimes it becomes less clearly because it becomes wrongly 17:51:39 zzo38: whats your point 17:51:40 But, of course, "Real this not is sentence a" is not even as sensible as most things 17:51:46 yep, in latin it works better because each word is tagged with where in the sentence it belongs 17:51:49 its not a grammatical sentence of any dialect of english 17:52:05 whereas "all that glitters is not gold" _is_ a grammatical sentence of almost every dialect of english 17:52:15 the question here is not grammaticality but meaning 17:52:24 Yes, it is, but that is not entirely my point 17:52:26 augur: not really, it's sort-of a polyglot 17:52:27 for YOU, the "not" cannot be higher than "all that glitters" 17:52:39 but for a large number of people it CAN 17:52:45 because they speak a different dialect of english 17:52:46 just like you can treat "this is nt a sentence" as either misspelt english or gramattically correct brainfuck 17:52:51 *grammatically 17:53:02 Polyglot, I guess that is a bit of sensible, a bit... 17:53:03 ais523: If everyone parses English a certain way it is correct. 17:53:14 ehirdiphone: ok, I agree with that 17:53:30 I'm not entirely sure if that's relevant here, given that there's obviously a disagreement, though 17:53:37 ais523, zzo38, would you like me to give you a completely compositional derivation for the odd reading? 17:53:40 in LAMBDA CALCULUs 17:53:45 Only you seem to disagree with the padding of it; even then you understood it. Your objection was entirely prescriptivist in nature. 17:53:47 But of course your misspelt English sentence has no effect or meaning in brainfuck even though it is gramatically correct (it doesn't have mismatched []) 17:53:48 to prove to you that its theoretically possible at least 17:53:55 Parsing not padding 17:54:04 ais523: Therefore, you're wrong. M 17:54:06 ehirdiphone: its not even a matter of parsing 17:54:08 ehirdiphone: not really; I know what the idiom is meant to mean 17:54:10 / M/d 17:54:17 structurally speaking the "not" is BELOW the subject of the sentence 17:54:18 but it disagrees with the normal parsing rules for every other sentence 17:54:34 but sentence structure is not sentence meaning 17:54:36 ;`( 17:54:36 so I think that what it actually means is different from what it traditionally means 17:54:43 inverse scopes are ABOUND in STANDARD english 17:54:49 English, not being neat and exceptionless? 17:54:58 OH GOD MY WORLD IS SHAKEN 17:55:03 an exception for /one sentence/? 17:55:09 ais523: its not ONE SENTENCE 17:55:10 All that is not shaken is not my world. 17:55:12 how could anyone know it existed without being taught? 17:55:15 its not an EXCEPTION 17:55:17 English language is full of exceptions and stuff like that, for letters, words, sounds, sentences, paragraphics, etc 17:55:33 augur: it is an exception 17:55:35 its completely well behaved IN THE DIALECTS WHERE ITS ACCEPTED 17:55:37 Actually I think it is exception 17:55:38 no its NOT 17:55:45 its just a DIFFERENT DIALECT 17:55:55 and IN THAT DIALECT its completely standard for ALL negation to behave this way 17:56:09 you mean, there are dialects where (for all x. !f(x)) is inexpressible? 17:56:12 OK, then, it a different dialect. That means, you have to understand what dialect you mean 17:56:37 ais523: what 17:56:45 Unless you are consistent, which it isn't. 17:56:53 zzo38: what 17:57:28 look, why dont i just give you a fucking compositional semantics for this sentence ok? itll demonstrate that theres nothing crazy going on here 17:57:30 augur: if "all that glitters is not gold" in some dialect means "not all that glitters is gold" in ais523ese, how do you express the ais523ese "all that glitters is not a black hole" in that dialect? 17:57:31 if augur wasn't an asshole he would be so cool 17:57:32 its completely trivial 17:57:40 augur: you're trying to answer a different argument from the one I'm making 17:57:45 ais523: same way, its just ambiguous. 17:58:00 that is such a great answer 17:58:09 thats THE answer 17:58:16 its the FACT of the matter 17:58:22 language is ambiguous, get used to it 17:58:22 Do you understand how to fix this template, I fixed it already but it is still broken, I don't know all of the wrong things http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Template:3.5e_Feat 17:58:39 I SAW THE MAN ON THE HILL WITH A TELESCOPE 17:58:48 FRANK HIT THE DOG WITH A STICK 17:59:04 OMG THESE SENTENCES ARE AMBIGUOUS HELP ME LANGUAGE IS CONFUSING AHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 17:59:07 soupdragon: augur just assumes (a) he is never wrong, (b) everyone understands and is interested in the details of linguistics, (c) using caps makes more people listen to him 17:59:33 (d) making mocking strawmen of his opponents helps (thanks for reminding me just now augur) 17:59:43 ehirdiphone it just makes me wince when people I can't stand study the same stuff im into 17:59:44 ehirdiphone: I actually had to look up and read his sentences after you said that 17:59:47 no ehird, i just assume that ais523 would make more of an argument than NO ITS BAD ENGLISH IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE 17:59:49 my brain filtered out the lines in allcaps 17:59:57 At least these sentences are generally less confusing than some other ambiguous sentences, they are also less confusing when used in contents, isn't it? 18:00:03 ais523: ditto 18:00:08 s/contents/contexts/ 18:00:12 ehirdiphone it's like being allergic to chocolate or something :( 18:00:49 soupdragon: Become a masochist! 18:00:56 ehirdiphone: i offered him numerous times to find papers on the very topic of inverse negation scope 18:01:02 I'm intolerant (like allergic, but with slightly different symptoms and less fatal if I eat them by mistake) to all sorts of food that people recommend 18:01:04 Then chocolate will be TWICE as enjoyable! 18:01:06 although not chocolate 18:01:14 augur: You know he can't read those papers 18:01:21 i also offered numerous times to show how its not illogical, nor does it require WEIRD parsing 18:01:27 You know he doesn't give a shit about Reading them 18:01:29 using lambda calculus 18:01:40 lambda calculus! 18:01:45 augur: translating english to lambda calculus generally requires reordering the sentence anyway 18:01:50 You just always want an opportunity to say 18:01:55 so therefore you wouldn't actually be making a point at all 18:01:59 Look at me. I know linguistics 18:02:06 ais523: listen to me ok 18:02:07 We have NOTATION for things 18:02:15 the grammatical structure of a sentence is not the same as the meaning of a sentence 18:02:21 Allow me to explain it to you! 18:02:29 words can be in places that dont correspond to their meanings 18:02:43 rationally, I know it's /my/ problem - but it really seems like other people are causing it 18:02:56 _all_ language is like this 18:02:59 ehirdiphone: gah, took me a few sentences to parse what you meant, I didn't realize immediately you'd elided quote marks 18:03:04 and got the use/mention mixed up 18:03:25 """"""" 18:03:32 um, I think that's better, possibly 18:03:34 any sentence with two quantifiers is going to have these issues, ais523 18:03:37 I hope this is a sufficient amount of quote marks. L 18:03:42 / L/d 18:03:44 and there are some sentences where you cannot avoid using inverse scope 18:03:53 ehirdiphone: you just deleted your entire line 18:04:03 ais523: Not in Sam. 18:04:10 oh, assumed it was a sed script 18:04:18 language is not logic 18:04:27 Nope. Sam's language is ed-derived. 18:04:47 But we still understand what was meant by / L/d even if it is incorrect, I guess, even like English languages and stuff too, but sometimes it can be unclear and/or confusing 18:04:49 But it is based on arbitrary regions, not lines. 18:05:12 zzo38: the sentence in question IS correct tho 18:05:14 zzo38: I try not to make assumptions in this channel, it's often a bad idea 18:05:19 just not in our dialects 18:05:39 it's not beyond the realm of possibility that ehird might want to delete an entire line of his own 18:05:56 (I'm also vaguely wondering how that typo happened, it isn't a very plausible one...) 18:06:03 I am secretly a 40 year old horse pedophile. 18:06:06 d d d d d 18:06:09 D!!!! 18:06:14 not any more 18:06:26 we all know you like shetland ponis 18:06:26 ais523: Iphone keyboard. Send is in bottom right 18:06:34 So m and l are above it 18:06:41 ehirdiphone: aha, and is it otherwise qwertyish? 18:06:43 Well 18:06:47 that would explain a lot 18:06:47 augut: Well, it must be a different dialect then, like you said at first, maybe 18:06:50 M is above send 18:06:56 L is above backspace. 18:07:03 Space space inputs ". " 18:07:13 But just because something is a different dialect, sometimes it can still be confusing, sometimes it is less confused 18:07:14 So I try to remove the last space 18:07:22 But miss and send 18:07:33 ais523: yes, it's qwerty for the letters 18:07:48 well it IS confusing zzo38, im not saying its not 18:07:56 but its confusing because its not OUR dialect 18:08:04 augur: Yes. 18:08:22 I never thought I'd be considering using Slackware... 18:08:25 Dialect is part of it, anyways 18:08:39 It's so... unehirdesque. 18:08:42 ehirdiphone: why are you considering using Slackware? 18:08:54 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:08:59 you're one of the few people I have put down in my brain as "opinions impossible to guess" 18:09:05 which is probably a good thing 18:09:08 so I'm genuinely curious 18:09:43 im a bit jelous of that 18:10:07 ais523: Why not? Slackware seems to meet some criteria I'm searching Linuxspace for: simple, lightweight, unobtrusive. Longterm my own distro is of course preferable. 18:10:30 Arch and Debian sid are the other main contenders. 18:10:42 Also, my opinions are unpredictable? Huh. 18:10:49 Often changing, yes. 18:10:59 But unpredictable in general? 18:11:11 maybe I'm just not very good at predicting 18:11:29 for instance, I know quite a bit about which fonts you like and dislike, but don't know, say, whether you'd like Deja Vu Sans mono or not 18:11:32 *Sans Mono 18:11:45 It's not a bad font. 18:12:13 heh, I actually guessed correctly 18:12:20 The best of the DejaVu family, probably. Serif is ugly because it's thin and fat. 18:12:27 ehird sorry to interrupt you 18:12:28 Sans is just really meh. 18:12:34 why the hell are you IRCing from a phone?? 18:12:43 soupdragon: Why not? 18:12:50 because that must suck ? 18:13:15 compared to a normal computer 18:13:24 I have a good enough keyboard, a nice screen, nick autocompletion and an alright browser. 18:13:32 It's fairly ok. 18:13:35 okay 18:13:48 major issue is that you can't use IRC and the browser at the same time, presumably? 18:13:55 I am, in fact, IRCing from a phone too. 18:13:57 Correcting my typing errors is the main annoying part. 18:14:24 ais523: Colloquy has an uberhack: it embeds its own WebKit shell 18:14:34 hmm... what do you call a computer that was clearly originally intended to be a netbook, but then given 3GB of memory so it could run windows 7? 18:14:39 basically a mini safari 18:14:39 ehirdiphone: heh 18:14:45 that's what I have 18:14:46 ehirdiphone: Not surprising that you like Slackware... 18:14:54 (Mostly because I'm a bit sickly at the moment and am trying to rest in bed.) 18:14:59 (note: 3GB probably isn't actually enough, the one on display in the shop was showing out-of-memory errors) 18:15:10 ais523: £300 at PC Worldbook? 18:15:18 £400 18:15:20 It is one of the few distros that tries to do as little as is sane. 18:15:23 Ripoff 18:15:34 yes, they were gouging everyone as it was christmas and a new version of windows was out 18:15:41 but everyone else was doing the same, for the same reason 18:15:49 the adverts were hilarious: "windows 7 is out, time for a new PC" 18:15:52 pikhq: My main misgiving is the, ahem, minimal package manager. 18:16:06 it was actually literally that, except for the comma which was replaced by a line break, and the capitalisation 18:16:11 ehirdiphone: Yeah, that is pretty much *the* problem with it. 18:16:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 18:16:52 pikhq: Does it actually *have* an uninstall program? 18:17:12 ugh, I'm getting CPAN flashbacks 18:17:48 ais523: Slackware doesn't chase dependencies for you. Now THAT would make CPAN hell. 18:18:25 what do you mean by "chase dependencies"? 18:18:34 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 18:18:45 CPAN effectively runs itself recursively to install dependencies, just with lots of yes/no prompts 18:18:54 If you have an unsatisfied dependency, Slackware just barfs. 18:19:12 doesn't that cause dependency hell, just manually? 18:19:13 You have to download and install dependencies one by one. 18:20:00 I thought that was the definition of dependency hel 18:20:05 *hell 18:20:09 Amusingly if you use static linking, most packages have basically no dependencies. 18:20:34 /usr/share sorta dependencies, sure. Commands they call too. 18:20:40 But not a single library. 18:21:17 ick on some cc? 18:21:27 ehirdiphone: Yes. 18:21:40 I suppose it doesn't use debian-style nethack-common, nethack-tty, nethack-x11 packaging then 18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone_ has joined. 18:22:12 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:22:15 -!- ehirdiphone_ has changed nick to ehirdiphone. 18:22:30 ais523: Slackware isn't atarically linked 18:22:33 Atarically 18:22:34 ais523: Slackware tends to just do ./configure&&make&&make PREFIX=dir install&&tar -cf package.tar dir 18:22:36 Ffg 18:22:44 I was just mentioning 18:22:59 pikhq: Yhere is SOME pkg metadata.,. 18:23:00 Patch only for bugs. 18:23:02 ... 18:23:05 There 18:23:08 ehirdiphone: Yes, it's a file in the tarball. 18:23:11 wtf is ataric linking? 18:23:18 ais523: Static. 18:23:35 pikhq: They use .txz nowadays 18:23:42 Since the latest release 18:23:46 Not tgzs 18:23:50 ehirdiphone: Right. 18:23:57 Same format, different compression. 18:26:30 I need fixed 18:27:28 Okay, you CAN uninstall with Slackware 18:27:30 And 18:27:36 "As of Slackware 12.2, slackpkg has been added as the official remote package manager." 18:27:56 But it seems to just do download+install and search 18:28:05 No dependency chasing 18:28:17 soupdragon: You need... Fixed? 18:28:30 yeah 18:28:38 wat 18:31:33 like I can't stand augur because he's so fucking nasty to me 18:31:53 but logically, the best thing would be to just forget about that and not care 18:32:38 -!- zzo38_ has joined. 18:32:40 -!- zzo38_ has changed nick to zzo38. 18:36:24 soupdragon: well sure a perfectly rational agent would have no emotions 18:36:45 but purely rational agents also never have different opinions, long term 18:36:54 pretty boring really 18:37:26 The Slackware package building method is kinda nice. It's called "shell script". 18:37:30 I'm pretty sure it's impossible to totally let anything just bounce off you, emotionally 18:37:35 ehirdiphone: hes just mistaken. ive never even spoken to him 18:37:59 augur: Im sure you've spoken to fax/quantum_ed. 18:38:04 who 18:38:24 -!- zzo38 has quit ("In Soviet Russia, sentence says YOU!!!"). 18:38:25 soupdragon. 18:38:35 im not sure! 18:38:43 i dont really talk in here much 18:38:43 Anyway he never said anything about you talking to him. 18:38:52 he said i was nasty to him! :| 18:38:57 No. 18:39:06 uh 18:39:08 yes? 18:39:09 He said that to him, you are nasty. 18:39:22 At least that is how I parsed it. 18:39:28 D: 18:39:32 DAMN YOU AMBIGUITY 18:39:51 do you watch Qi? 18:39:58 er, sorry, buzzcocks rather 18:40:20 Those British comedy quizzes. All alike! 18:40:32 no its just that i spend all of yesterday watching both 18:40:42 and the reason i bring buzzcocks up is david tennant 18:40:47 who was also in a recent ep of Qi 18:41:27 I aw typing upside down. 18:41:33 partially! 18:42:34 Fucking W 18:42:35 i dont really talk in here much <-- really? you seemed pretty active recently 18:42:41 recently! 18:42:44 like, last few days. 18:43:06 Fhaitstieyisjgjwtijgwgjgktssgksgkssooye 18:43:56 One dislikeable thing about Slackware is the lack of netinstall. 18:44:16 Instead it's a DVD or 73.458063 CDs. 18:44:17 ehirdiphone, was that Fhait... a cry of desperation? 18:44:32 Guisitoywitwtihcugrsypfypftid, Hoyle. Godgoto. 18:44:33 Presumably you could create a netinstall. 18:44:43 ehirdiphone, btw what is your general opinon on "compile your own kernel" thing 18:44:44 pikhq: And a pony. 18:44:47 Get slackpkg and dependencies. 18:44:51 * AnMaster imagines ehirdiphone would hate that 18:44:54 Install stuff. 18:45:18 AnMaster: Usually pointless. 18:46:10 Most people do it to lengthen their epenis by three inches and bask in the 5ms a day they save vs the 5 years they put into it in total. 18:46:21 ehirdiphone, well in my case.. two things: 1) cut startup time from 35 seconds to 17.2 seconds. Mostly due to no longer needing initramfs and less modules needed to be modprobed. 2) I needed to patch to work around a regression for my hardware 18:46:30 sadly upstream is not very interested in fixing that bug it seems 18:46:34 But, omg, it's 3KiB smaller!!!! 18:46:46 17.2 seconds. Hah. 18:47:01 ehirdiphone, that is from init to login prompt 18:47:09 ehirdiphone, measured with bootchart 18:47:12 Hahahahah. 18:47:22 ehirdiphone, for an old sempron it isn't too bad 18:47:22 :P 18:48:04 I'm relatively confident my distro will go from just after bootloader to X login in 7 seconds with disk. 13, absolute max. 18:48:10 5, minimum. 18:48:30 With SSD, 3-7 seconds. Probably 4-5. 18:48:30 ehirdiphone, good luck, since 8 of those seconds are taken up for me with waiting for dhcp reply 18:48:44 AnMaster: Parallel init. 18:49:03 ehirdiphone, mine is parallel, but i need network up early on 18:49:20 You'll be typing your password, and your WM starting, while DHCP goes. 18:49:24 ehirdiphone, and sure if i started everything after mounting file systems in background I could do 5 seconds 18:49:29 ehirdiphone, wm? sorry? 18:49:33 what has it got to do with things 18:49:34 (Everything else will be finished.) 18:49:47 * AnMaster uses startx manually due to often not starting X at all 18:51:02 Talking to you is infuriating. A constant battle where the only weapon of your opponent is pretending to not understand so they can flount how elite and minimalist and hardcore hacker they are. 18:51:17 ehirdiphone, didn't intend tha 18:51:20 that* 18:51:30 just pointing out my measure is to the text login 18:51:36 not to kdm or gdm or such 18:51:39 So you do it all the time unintentionally? 18:51:52 My sincere condolences for your ailment. 18:52:06 ehirdiphone, all time is an unfounded generalisation 18:52:11 I was talking about this convo 18:52:40 Au contrarie it's perfectly founded to me 18:52:43 Anyhow 18:52:52 This is boring 18:52:54 anyway arch linux init system is crude. 18:53:00 Who boots up anyway 18:53:21 parralell in part, but rather limited in what you can do 18:53:28 It's an irrelevant stat. Anyone who isn't anmaster just uses suspend. 18:53:33 it doesn't do dependency stuff for once. It's up to the user 18:53:35 Okay, maybe ais523 too. 18:53:46 ehirdiphone: I just leave the system on. 18:53:48 yes, I boot 18:54:03 ehirdiphone, my system is generally on 24/7 for my desktop 18:54:21 pikhq: Why? Slow suspend times? 18:54:31 ehirdiphone, but interesting thing is that suspend takes way longer than shut down on my laptop. Which isn't a good thing when you are in a hurry to leave 18:54:38 resume is faster than boot though 18:54:48 ehirdiphone: Nah, just don't bother suspending. 18:54:55 I'll probably include TuxOnIce in my distro for fast suspend/wake. 18:55:12 ehirdiphone, what does it do differently from "stock" kernel 18:55:16 when suspending I mena 18:55:17 mean* 18:55:31 Everything. It's an entire replacement suspension system. 18:55:45 so why hasn't it gone upstream? 18:55:55 Dunno. 18:56:16 I've been shutting the desktop down nowadays; saving the planet, you know. I don't want them to come jail me for melting the ice caps, after all. 18:56:21 http://www.tuxonice.net/ <-- this looks so 1999 or so 18:56:27 BFS should be upstream too but it isn't 18:56:34 I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link 18:56:34 apart from the "flash blocked" bit 18:56:37 but the design 18:56:39 fizzie: Suspend to ram uses like 1W 18:56:56 an unreadablely drark shadow 18:56:59 and* 18:57:19 ehirdiphone, BFS? 18:57:48 I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link <-- is that an esolang? 18:57:48 Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. 18:58:01 ehirdiphone, I don't believe you 18:58:02 ehirdiphone: Yes, and fails to wake up on approximately every twelth time on my system, requiring a hard reset; haven't been interested enough to try finding a fix. 18:58:04 it's a book :( 18:58:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End 18:58:10 Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use. 18:58:11 ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system? 18:58:14 im trying to downloard this 18:58:17 oh scheduler 18:58:24 but the blog links to another blog which doesn't have the god damn link 18:58:28 ehirdiphone, CFS seems quite good to me 18:58:31 Don't believe me? What? 18:58:32 never had any issues with it 18:58:39 ehirdiphone, what? 18:58:43 i have a copy of that book 18:58:56 havent read it tho 18:59:00 ehirdiphone, who don't belive who about what? 18:59:01 AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you 18:59:12 Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. 18:59:12 ehirdiphone, I don't believe you 18:59:15 soupdragon, check gigapedia.com 18:59:16 brain fuck scheduler ;P 18:59:16 You said you don't believe me 18:59:19 for bfs 18:59:21 indeed 18:59:26 I said that afterwards 18:59:34 ehirdiphone, also: " AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you" <-- copy failure! 18:59:46 ehirdiphone, no? 18:59:52 ehirdiphone, what are you talking about 18:59:57 ehirdiphone, BFS? 18:59:59 Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. 19:00:02 ehirdiphone, I don't believe you 19:00:07 ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system? 19:00:09 Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use. 19:00:12 oh scheduler 19:00:20 [cut out lines related to other discussions] 19:00:25 ehirdiphone, I fail to see any issues there 19:01:32 Anyway, BFS has guaranteed low latency, soft realtime scheduling not restricted to root, and has near optimal CPU usage on a desktop: -j(cores) is the optimal strategy. It turns out higher numbers performing better is because other schedulers are inefficient for desktop (not high spec clusters etc) machines. 19:01:43 is this a parody of something from the book http://www.seekrainbowsend.com/ 19:01:48 ehirdiphone, sounds nice. 19:02:09 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 19:02:12 "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download" 19:02:22 good for him but what's the URL?? 19:02:25 fizzie, can you make sense of that " I said that afterwards" 19:02:32 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 19:02:34 What did I miss after "sounds nice"? 19:02:46 ok guys, im off. ill be back in an hour maybe 19:02:47 * ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info") 19:02:47 "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download" 19:02:47 good for him but what's the URL?? 19:02:47 fizzie, can you make sense of that " I said that afterwards" 19:02:51 * ehirdiphone (n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74) has joined #esoteric 19:02:55 ehirdiphone, that 19:03:16 ehirdiphone, no "are you sure you want to quit" dialog I guess ;P 19:03:20 I just misread the logs STFU about "said afterwards" >_< 19:03:33 ehirdiphone, oh right. That explains it :) 19:03:58 AnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together. 19:04:16 fizzie: The quantum foam of nightmares. 19:04:30 Allow me to quote you. 19:04:32 fizzieAnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together. 19:04:35 OH GOD 19:04:46 It's... It's GROWING! 19:05:20 http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/28/vinges-brilliant-rai.html 19:05:25 It's like that... that ball thing that collects crap it runs over of. 19:05:27 anyone able to figure this out? 19:05:28 ehirdiphone, it seems like quite a bug in that software to not insert any delimiter there 19:05:32 soupdragon: did you read the ed stories 19:05:35 I can't see the big red button 19:05:42 ehirdiphone a couple of chapters 19:05:48 AnMaster: it's only on copy paste 19:05:57 fizzie, cat nightmare? 19:06:02 soupdragon: It gets much, much better 19:06:35 soupdragon: around Be Here Now. After that the entire rest is one big plotline 19:06:39 ehirdiphone, hm, iirc xchat defaults to inserting <> in copied strings if they are not displayed. You edit a format string or something iirc 19:06:47 * AnMaster hasn't used xchat for a while now 19:06:48 okayy 19:06:54 (you have to have read all of them to understand it though) 19:06:57 here we go, *starts it* 19:07:15 hrrm okay I had format strings set to display <> always 19:07:43 AnMaster: Something called Katamari, I believe. Some sort of a game. 19:08:11 Katamari Damacy. Brilliant game. 19:08:12 fizzie, It was a pun on it. I heard of the game 19:08:23 fizzie, I thought you knew enough Swedish to figure out the pun 19:08:35 ask oerjan otherwise 19:08:42 (it was a *bad* pun though) 19:08:47 NAAAA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA KATAMARI DAMACY 19:08:57 * AnMaster never played it 19:09:05 was it 2D or 3D? 19:09:12 3d 19:09:18 for what platform? 19:09:23 various 19:09:24 * ais523 tries to imagine 2D katamari damacy 19:09:30 I think it /could/ work, just wouldn't be as good 19:09:33 and would miss half the point 19:09:34 ehirdiphone, anything like n64 for emulator I meant 19:09:38 ais523: Easiest game ever 19:09:41 Just hold right 19:09:46 AnMaster: More recent 19:09:50 ehirdiphone, meh 19:09:57 Gamecube emulation is food nowadays 19:09:58 Good 19:10:05 I prefer the typo 19:10:07 ais523, what about 4D? 19:10:07 Wad katamari released on GC? 19:10:14 ehirdiphone, garbage collector? 19:10:17 AnMaster: Adanaxis is bad enough 19:10:21 Gamecube. 19:10:27 ais523, is that the 4D space game thingy? 19:10:32 although, I had it working for a while (the graphics card on this netbook doesn't like it...) 19:10:34 AnMaster: yes 19:10:48 Should probably try out the Maemo port of XChat some day; xterm+irssi is not bad, but still. 19:10:49 hm... that was unexpected *stares at firefox* 19:10:51 and I got decent at it, even if I can't visualise what's going on that doesn't stop me playing it 19:10:57 ais523, you know in firefox, the google box? 19:11:01 it says google in grey in it 19:11:09 umm, it's a search engine box 19:11:10 Yeees... 19:11:11 and when you click in it, it becomes empty 19:11:12 ais523, ^ 19:11:14 atm it's set to Cuil for me 19:11:14 however 19:11:19 and so says Cuil in grey 19:11:21 I managed to paste Adanaxis there 19:11:24 so it said: 19:11:27 ais523: O_O 19:11:27 GoogleAdanaxis 19:11:29 in grey 19:11:32 ehirdiphone: what? 19:11:33 ais523: Why on earth? 19:11:35 can't reproduce it 19:11:39 but strange bug anyway 19:11:47 ehirdiphone: Katamari's been on the PS2, PS3, and the 360. 19:11:49 ehirdiphone: ever since Google started personalising searches for everyone 19:12:17 The two noteworthy ones are for the PS2. 19:12:17 if everyone's going to get different Google results, it's going to be pretty much impossible to tell people to just google something 19:12:17 (after that, there was much less acid involved) 19:12:17 ais523: clearly you should use bing 19:12:19 At least bing is a useable search engine 19:12:23 I don't actually trust any of the search engines 19:12:26 ehirdiphone, no, yahoo! 19:12:33 Yahoo is bing 19:12:33 or altavista :D 19:12:37 ehirdiphone, oh damn 19:12:37 Remember? 19:12:38 besides, I'm used to not getting useful results from them, Cuil doesn't massively hurt 19:12:43 ehirdiphone, what about altavista 19:12:46 what happened to it 19:12:51 nothing 19:12:52 AnMaster: I actually used to use it well after Google became popular 19:12:59 because it did a lot more of a literal search than Google did 19:13:03 ais523, which one? altavista? 19:13:06 yes 19:13:08 hm 19:13:14 then they tried to improve their results, and just became like Google but worse 19:13:18 Actually I'm getting sick of google too 19:13:20 ehirdiphone, so it is just a almost unused website? 19:13:32 a perfectly literal search engine, I'd find rather useful 19:13:47 I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt 19:13:49 yes, it's trivial to manipulate the results, but people are going to be asking different sorts of questions 19:13:51 ais523, yes. Sometimes I find the suggestions useful, not most of the time 19:14:27 I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt <-- I know nothing about this. So who is that person? 19:14:47 Google/Wikipedia Watch madman. 19:15:05 wow, AltaVista's results for INTERCAL > Google's results for INTERCAL 19:15:06 You've probably come across google watch. 19:15:34 10 relevant results > 6 relevant results 19:15:38 on the first page 19:16:03 Scroogle is also quite slow especially via https and doesn't do image search 19:16:05 (Wikia Search, while it was still up, managed hundreds of relevant results on the first page, as it kept showing more results as you scrolled, but that's kind-of cheating) 19:16:15 ehirdiphone: doesn't it also violate Google's terms of service? 19:16:17 You've probably come across google watch. <-- no 19:16:30 ais523: Who cares (yes, you) 19:16:38 yes, me 19:16:53 Guess who doesn't care that you care 19:16:55 also, if it ever became popular, Google would just either technologically-block, or sue them 19:17:08 maybe both 19:17:38 Anmaster: he hates google because his site wasn't popular on it 19:17:59 He hates wikipedia because they wouldn't delete his page 19:18:13 From these come google-watch.org 19:18:19 And the same for wikipedia 19:18:23 hm 19:18:26 okay 19:18:46 those sites are actually in my "wouldn't visit except via TOR" category, he's that sort of a madman 19:18:47 ehirdiphone, both sites *does* have faults, but I guess he doesn't stay at those only 19:19:10 He is very crazy. He ran a secret logbot in #wikipedia and evaded them banning it 19:19:18 I see 19:19:29 thus breaking Freenode's TOS too 19:19:38 Then he sieves through the logs and goes batshit over people calling him crazy in then 19:19:40 Them 19:19:58 ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself 19:20:00 ehirdiphone, he could just park an idle client in there with logging turned on. Nothing ilegal in idling 19:20:14 Nobody else here cannot separate law from morality 19:20:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:20:28 AnMaster: He publishes the logs. 19:20:44 ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself <-- quoting you about zzo: stop destroying his differences 19:20:45 ehirdiphone: I can; I think it's sometimes moral to break the law, and there are definitely things that are immoral but legal 19:20:59 well not exact-wording 19:21:05 s/-/ / 19:21:21 AnMaster: zzo is fun, this is just disturbingly obedient 19:21:22 however, it's pretty rare that you get a situation where breaking the law is morally correct 19:21:30 ehirdiphone, hm 19:21:35 and if it happens, there's probably something wrong with the law 19:21:58 also private logging isn't forbidden anywhere 19:22:06 public logging are in some channels 19:22:10 ehirdiphone: true or false opinion: ideally, the law should be designed in such a way that it's never morally correct to break it 19:22:24 (I agree that this is hopelessly idealistic, but if it were possible?) 19:22:24 umm 19:22:45 AnMaster: all Freenode channels that don't explicitly warn of public logging, public logging is banned 19:22:49 false 19:22:53 i think definitely false 19:22:55 ais523, indeed 19:23:11 "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax 19:23:15 Pthing: interesting; what's your reasoning? (not attacking, just curious) 19:23:26 my reasoning is anti-hubristic 19:23:41 ehirdiphone: a good quote; I think it fails to take corporations into account, but is largely correct wrt individuals 19:24:01 law is a more rigid instrument than morality 19:24:15 ais523: Well, you clearly do not fall under good per it, so are you bad? 19:24:26 there is no point trying to make law identical to morality 19:24:30 ehirdiphone: I'm not sure 19:24:39 because we already have morality, in all its inconstancy for that 19:24:50 I've found contradictions in my own opinions more than once, and have been unable to resolve them 19:24:53 Pthing: My morals are consistent. 19:25:02 (Utilitarianism) 19:25:07 ehirdiphone: oh no please no 19:25:15 Your mom. 19:25:22 strong utilitarianism is about the worst moral system you could imagine 19:25:27 ehirdiphone, yeah sure whatever 19:25:30 apart from one that's actively bad 19:25:35 why not just be a christian if you're going to play identity games like that 19:25:45 ais523: You are wrong. 19:25:45 as it tries to sum incommensurable values 19:25:51 you can have meetings about how great utilitarianism is and sing songs about it 19:26:00 ehirdiphone: how can you compare the happiness of one person to the happiness of another? 19:26:07 Pthing: By using names I am religious? 19:26:13 ais523: You don't. 19:26:18 Pthing: do you know what utilitarianism /is/? 19:26:20 ais523: You compare utility. 19:26:23 yes >:| 19:26:27 ehirdiphone: well, yes 19:26:31 Utilons, etc. 19:26:38 the problem is ehirdiphone being all about "my morals" 19:26:39 but I don't think people have a scale of utils you can just go and measure 19:26:50 Of course, in practice you must make estimates and judgement. 19:26:59 and even if you could, you have feedback-loop issues 19:27:04 Utilitarianism is the measuring stick. 19:27:11 in that many people get upset by what they think is immoral behaviour 19:27:14 the other reason 19:27:17 why i think it is false 19:27:19 and you need to take that into account in your calculations too 19:27:22 is because this is false idealism 19:27:28 all that exists in this case is practice 19:27:35 it's not like it's mathematics or anything 19:27:43 Often it is fairly clear cut. 19:27:44 ehirdiphone: if enough people were upset by the thought that some people used utilitarian morals, would you stop being a utilitarian? 19:28:28 steady on 19:28:34 ais523: I would go for an alternative: hide my utilitarianism, attempt to remove this upset, etc. 19:28:36 he didn't go *that* far down the identity game 19:28:43 he just said his *morals* were utilitarian 19:28:44 not him 19:28:46 ehirdiphone: heh 19:28:49 that is another level of terrible 19:28:56 Pthing: err, I'm not sure if there can semantically be a difference 19:29:06 i do! 19:29:23 A person whose moral system is utilitarianism is a utilitarian. 19:29:29 as in, it seems to be an antitautology to have someone who has utilitarian morals but isn't a utilitarian 19:29:45 unless they were unaware of their own morals, I suppose 19:29:48 yeah 19:29:51 that is basically it i guess 19:30:01 Being A Utilitarian is an identity thing 19:30:11 No it's not. 19:30:15 it is! 19:30:21 ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it 19:30:23 Maybe in wanker philosopher groups. 19:30:30 it is a wanker philosophy term 19:30:35 I do not belong to those groups. 19:30:37 because it is wanking philosophy 19:31:04 Talking to Pthing continues to further the notion that talking to him is fruitless. 19:31:27 where philosophy is involved, mostly! 19:31:43 utilitarianism is, to me, an attempt to apply economic principles to morals 19:31:49 I am a utilitarian. I call myself that because it is what I am. 19:32:04 so it's going to fail at least to the extent that the models economists use are inapplicable to the real world, so it's impossible to work out how to apply it 19:32:05 that is precisely what it means to be an identity thing :| 19:32:10 "I am x" 19:32:12 ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it <-- huh? aren't those equivilent? 19:32:12 ais523: Well, i find any deontological system unacceptable. 19:32:25 ugh, I've forgotten what deontological systems are 19:32:28 AnMaster: no, they aren't 19:32:28 ais523: As it can lead to truly horrible results. 19:32:31 oh, yes they are 19:32:38 ais523, typo? 19:32:39 sorry, I really screwed up that sentence 19:32:41 yes, typo 19:32:43 ais523: Actions can be immoral no matter what their results. 19:32:46 when you say things like that, you are linking yourself with various kinds of philosophical wankery floating out there in platonic heaven 19:32:50 ais523, so what should it have been? 19:33:12 ais523: So murdering one person to save a billion could be morally unacceptable. 19:33:18 ais523: This is abhorrent. 19:33:22 AnMaster: get rid of one of the repeats of "believe", then adjust the sentence to be grammatically correct 19:33:46 That's what deontological moral systems are. 19:33:47 ehirdiphone: I'd say with the definition of "action" you're using, you're pretty obviously correct 19:34:01 ais523: I disagree with it 19:34:08 I was just defining it for you 19:34:15 ehirdiphone: no, I mean you're correct in that it's abhorrent 19:34:20 OR ELSE 19:34:21 Ah. 19:34:28 if not with the wankery, it is a *social* thing 19:34:32 ais523, which "believe"? 19:34:36 it's also possible to define an action as including all relevant context 19:34:40 and so you are linking yourself to other people who claim the same identity 19:34:40 there are three to select from + one "believes" 19:34:44 AnMaster: any, the sentence means the same thing whichever one you remove 19:35:06 well, not quite 19:35:12 but it makes the point equally well whichever you remove 19:35:13 * AnMaster drops the first one 19:35:26 * AnMaster looks at the messed up grammar 19:35:56 INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. 19:36:00 I disagree 19:36:02 actually dropping "believe they" makes much more sense 19:36:12 hmm... is that esr, or just quoted by him? 19:36:23 ah 19:36:32 INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. <-- is he contradicting himself there? 19:36:34 INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. 19:36:43 *Garrett 19:36:59 AnMaster: that's not a self-contradiction 19:37:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:37:12 it's of the form "a, and I couldn't convince you of not a" 19:37:12 Ducks 19:37:26 ais523: Not a and couldn't a 19:37:30 Actually. 19:37:41 ehirdiphone: equivalent, just redefine a 19:37:41 ais523, well not formally logical contraction. But a bit confusing in normal language 19:37:51 unless you're using intuistic logic or something like that 19:38:01 Hey I wonder if http://catseye.tc/ had any new fancy stuff 19:38:05 unless you're using intuistic logic or something perverted like that 19:38:06 ais523: I know. 19:38:25 ehirdiphone, seems so 19:38:27 Oh baby, infer my Haskell types. 19:38:45 Latest news: 2009.1229: Our last language of the aughts: ZOWIE. Read more on our news page, or subscribe to our RSS feed. 19:39:00 http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/doc/zowie.html 19:39:00 hmm, never heard of Etcha 19:39:08 aughts? 19:39:11 ais523, what is etcha? 19:39:20 00's 19:39:38 AnMaster: according to Cat's Eye, BitChanger adapted to turtle graphics 19:39:40 oh thought it was naughts 19:39:45 ais523, I see 19:40:33 argh 19:40:47 kdebase on arch linux pulls in mysql 19:40:49 wth 19:41:51 Probably because it depends on Qt, and they built Qt with MySQL support, for the sake of Amarok (which needs *a* SQL engine in Qt) 19:42:07 pikhq, QT has an optional dep on mysql 19:42:11 but this is not optional 19:42:14 AnMaster: WTH. 19:42:34 pikhq, ah it seems to be akonadi 19:42:36 whatever that is 19:42:42 "The secondary design goal of ZOWIE was to strike the perfect balance between It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World and The Party. It is generally considered a morbid failure in that regard, what with not being a madcap 60's movie and all." 19:42:48 Ah. 19:43:00 pikhq, which I surely have no use of for krita or similar 19:43:35 pikhq, but why the mysql server 19:43:41 why not just the client library 19:44:19 pikhq, also: Nothing will make me install mysql ever 19:44:34 and krita on ubuntu doesn't need it 19:45:11 ehirdiphone, "huh" 19:48:09 "Also, I can now say I've worked on a language project for every letter of the Roman alphabet. I'm so happy." 19:48:39 Huh. Chris Pressey sez that zzo's name is Aaron. 19:49:35 "Pixley is also (depending on how you count them) my 50th programming language (that I'll admit to!) This puts me squarely in the ballpark of Wouter and Aaron, and suggests that I plan to be personally responsible for a significant fraction of the next 700 programming languages." 19:49:51 Links to User:Zzo38 on our wiki 19:51:16 -!- soupdragon has quit ("Leaving"). 19:54:22 I just picked a lock for real. 19:54:46 it was admittedly a really shitty thing on a floppy disk box 19:55:14 but I actually opened it by just wigging a pin around and twisting 19:55:57 *wiggling 19:59:45 and, I suppose, knowing a little about how locks work 20:00:46 like 20:00:53 "if you stick a pin in them and wiggle, sometimes they open" 20:04:09 nah, I was trying to push a certain bit if the lock 20:04:13 but not much more than that 20:17:49 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:20:11 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 20:20:53 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 20:32:02 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:40:32 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:04:17 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:21:05 -!- ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info"). 21:38:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:39:39 Do you know some things about copyright law? Icosahedral RPG has its own license but someone else says it has to be the OGL, I don't know everything about the OGL 21:43:53 What's your question? 21:45:28 My question is why it is or is not has to be the OGL or not. 21:45:42 Why would it have to be the OGL? 21:46:07 I am not using OGL material, yet someone said I have to license my work under the OGL anyways because it is "similar". Yet, even other similar things are not by OGL 21:46:54 Here is the Icosahedral RPG license, for reference: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/license.irm And the OGL, for reference: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/OGLv1.0a.rtf 21:47:07 Because it's similar to what? 21:48:19 If something is released under multiple licenses, you can pick whichever one you like the best. 21:48:27 Similar to D&D. But D&D has been written by many times ago, and there are many other similar things, such as ADOM and various other games, including RPGs and others. 21:48:37 I'm not talking about multiple license. 21:49:03 I'm guessing D&D is released under OGL. 21:49:05 I mean that apparently my work is similar enough that it needs to be under the OGL, but actually my work is written independently, although there are a few similarities 21:49:17 I'm not using text from the D&D rule books 21:49:21 Well, I'm pretty sure that game mechanics are not covered by copyright. 21:49:34 Artwork and text and code and stuff are. Game mechanics would have to be covered by patent. 21:50:54 And the game mechanics are not even the same. They are just have a few similarities. And I'm not using their text or their art. Even if I do have art, the included art will not use the Icosahedral RPG license (or the OGL). It doesn't use code either, but there are a few simple equations which are isomorphic to the D&D ones 21:51:12 (Even though D&D rules does not even explicitly have any equations) 21:51:38 Game mechanics are not even copyrightable. 21:51:44 Only the specific writing of them. 21:52:05 Oh, and there are bits like trademarks and such... 21:52:06 Well, what similarities are there? 21:53:06 Only a few vague similarities in the way the rules work, but the rules are actually different. 21:53:24 Also, it uses a few similar terminologies, but not the ones that are trademarked 21:53:37 Well, you can't copyright a vague similarity. 21:54:30 Unless you're using something that's patented, you're good. 21:54:42 (no D&D mechanics are patented, FWIW) 21:54:47 I know that, but when asking for help about the introduction text (intro.irm) someone said that it has to be OGL, possibly because they don't understand copyright? 21:55:03 They're bloody well clueless. 21:55:15 I told them about ADOM and stuff, they say ADOM is irrelevant because it was made before the OGL, for one thing. 21:55:36 Well, I will write the Icosahedral Role Playing Game Rulebook anyways, and then we can see, right? 21:56:05 Also, is the license I used is it workable? 21:57:08 Hmm... 21:57:12 Just a moment. 21:58:27 Do you have a particular reason for not using an existing license? 21:59:27 zzo38: Poorly worded, but workable. 21:59:55 Can it be worded better? How should I word it better? 22:00:16 Be very exact. 22:00:18 Well, it uses the phrase "restricted by this license". Licenses don't restrict; they allow. 22:01:58 The default state is that people can do very little with your work, and a license lists some additional things that people are allowed to do. 22:02:31 generally, you say "you have a conditional licence to do X, provided that:" 22:03:06 I see what you are refering to, part 7, about creations which incorporate it indirectly. 22:03:18 How should it be worded more proper? 22:07:52 -!- anmaster_l has quit (Connection timed out). 22:08:15 Well, you could say that those things "may be used and distributed by their creators in any way with no restrictions whatsoever". 22:08:48 The intention is that if someone creates a new spell for Icosahedral RPG, and it has a trademarked name, they still have to allow other people to copy that spell to their own work even if they have to rename it. It should be clear what you have to rename it to, so that it can be used by other people clearly what you refer to. 22:09:08 zzo38: generally you should ask a lawyer about this sort of thing 22:09:22 if you need to make a licence watertight 22:10:49 Of course, new spell is just one example, it would also apply to new feats, classes, game rules, creature stat blocks, etc. But that if someone adds flavor text, or art, etc, they can do so however they want to. 22:11:12 The best way may be to take an existing license and modify it so that it matches what you want. 22:11:45 What problems do you have with the GNU GPL, or the BSD license, or the other GNU licenses, or the Creative Commons licenses? 22:12:51 The GNU GPL is best for software and doesn't do what I have specified. However, I do intend that it is allowed to be relicense under the GNU GPL, in case you want to write software or whatever 22:13:33 -!- augur has joined. 22:13:39 Might I suggest using something similar to the OGL? 22:13:41 well that was a bit longer than i expected 22:13:42 The BSD license is not restrictive enough; I never use it for my own works. If I want a program to be unrestricted by copyright I make it public domain. 22:14:15 The OGL also has a few problems. For one thing, it isn't quite how I specified, also see the FAQ for a few other problems with OGL: http://www.earth1066.com/D20FAQ.htm 22:14:24 (See C.09) 22:14:43 Basically I want it to be copyleft for rules but not for flavor text and art. 22:15:15 Flavor text and art can be whatever the author of the flavor text and art wants it to be. 22:15:57 Maybe I'll be more specific. What would a Creative Commons license allow that you don't want to allow, or not allow that you do want to allow? 22:16:15 "Similar" includes "like it, but without the problems"... 22:16:51 OK, but how would I do it? 22:17:23 ... With a text editor? 22:17:25 A Creative Commons license does not differentiate between rules and non-rules, for one thing. That's because they aren't designed for RPGs 22:17:39 That isn't what I meant by "how would I do it" 22:17:45 So release the rules under one license and the non-rules under another? 22:17:53 Or, you know, modify them. 22:18:02 You haven't actually answered my question. 22:18:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:18:53 No, no... Any non-rules that are part of the Icosahedral RPG reference documenation still is my this license, but any non-rules which are written by third parties are not required to be copyleft, is what I mean. Rules written by third parties are still under the copyleft of the license 22:19:40 Do you understand what I mean? 22:20:47 So the rules are available under this license, but people can create derivative works of non-rules and release them under any license? 22:21:53 Yes, as long as any rules that are part of their work have to be available under the same license as the core rules. 22:23:52 So yeah, it sounds like you could just release the rules under a copyleft license and the non-rules into the public domain. 22:24:25 OK, I understand. 22:24:42 uorygl! 22:24:53 i think YOU havent actually answered MY question >O 22:25:10 augur: you asked a question? 22:25:22 have you decided how to have names not be predicates 22:25:31 But: My intention is that non-rules can be combined with rules in a single work, in a way which the non-rules are exempt from the copyleft while the rules are still forced by the copyleft. 22:26:08 That's the real only difference from what you have specified. 22:26:53 augur: no, I haven't. 22:28:01 keep trying :p 22:28:08 zzo38: isn't that a consequence of what I said? If someone includes non-rules in their own work, others will still be able to redistribute the non-rules. 22:28:39 Maybe you want to include a clause in the rules license stating that people must mention the public-domain-ness of the non-rules if they distribute them in conjunction. 22:30:20 -!- olsner has joined. 22:30:36 No. I mean, they can distribute non-rules using whatever license the author wants. They are not forced to be public domain. However, if you add rules, the rules are still copyleft, but any non-rules can be under full copyright and can deny other people the right to copy any non-rules added, but they can't deny rights having to do with the rules 22:31:26 -!- Pthing has joined. 22:31:36 Okay. 22:31:54 Hmm... 22:39:43 Okay. Here's the Creative Commons ShareAlike clause: If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license. 22:41:08 Just change that to something like "If you alter . . . compatible license, except that you may distribute the parts of the resulting work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish." 22:42:20 Though that's not the actual clause, that's a summary of the clause. 22:42:59 Well, here's a better idea. 22:43:00 OK, thanks, that makes sense 22:44:15 "These rules are available under the Whatever License. In addition, if from these rules you create a derivative work, you may release the parts of this derivative work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish." 22:45:17 OK. 22:45:30 That way, you don't have the strangeness that occurs when you change a license by specifying a change to the summary of the license. 22:46:09 OK 22:47:51 Will I have to copy in the text of the CC-BY-SA (or whatever)? And if I also want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL, will the text of the GNU GPL have to be included? What if I want to add a clause to optionally change to new versions (where I will specify the new version, which might have additional permissions/restrictions, and new version of CC-BY-SA, and new version of GNU GPL, and so on) 22:48:53 Just saying "CC-BY-SA" and linking to it would be enough. Likewise for the GPL. 22:49:16 You know, the GPL bit seems redundant, unless you consider software to be game rules. 22:50:33 No. I simply want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL so that the rule text can be added to any software with the GNU GPL 22:50:39 As for changing to new versions, perhaps it would be best simply to start releasing new versions of your work under a different license if you want to. 22:50:49 And I know usually it is just linked, but the idea is that if it is printed out as an actual book, that might not do? 22:51:35 The idea is that it can be printed as an actual book as well as being a web-page, wiki, or any other format. (This is one of the things that Icoruma does) 22:51:45 Hmm. I would guess that the GPL would allow you to release the software, alongside documentation and including a documentation browser, without having to release the documentation under the GPL. 22:52:08 OK. 22:52:29 I guess it can do without mentioning the GPL, then. 22:53:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 23:13:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 23:40:39 -!- MizardX- has joined. 23:46:50 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:48:05 -!- Deewiant has joined. 23:56:42 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out). 23:57:06 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.