< 1263427276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty set 9.1 < 1263427289 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell < 1263427290 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1263427323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: your "haskell → make comment about haskell sucking" rule is becoming very boring very quickly. < 1263427349 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just because your a haskell sympathizer < 1263427370 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a real language (LISP) which can do more than just compute factorials < 1263427391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: ... You call that a real language? It's not even functional! < 1263427392 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone want that < 1263427430 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional programming Doesn't Work, see the popular blog post by popular blogger < 1263427470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Said popular blogger is dumber than a a sack of bricks. < 1263427473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: soupdragon likes agda, he's just trolling you < 1263427479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incredibly successfully < 1263427480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just as willfully ignorant. < 1263427482 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would never use agda!!! < 1263427491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, then. < 1263427492 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm strictly into dynamic languages < 1263427495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imma go back to my functional C. < 1263427504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional C is a myth. < 1263427517 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing C is good for is computing kernels < 1263427550 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that didn't work quite as wel :( < 1263427554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, no. For loops are a myth. < 1263427565 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use for loops you are educated evil < 1263427577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good thing I don't. < 1263427600 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real languages have a simulataneous for-loop recursion combinator < 1263427625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like... Map? < 1263427686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be fun having a language which enforces parallelism < 1263427691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. its map is strictly parallel map < 1263427802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be perfect for implementing a bug-free, efficiently multithreaded real-time clock + infix calculator hybrid application < 1263427813 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1263427892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just broke soupdragon's BRAIN < 1263427925 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was like when the guy went through the worm hole and it turned out the planet of the apes was earth < 1263427951 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything just turned upside down and inside out < 1263427969 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an instant everything was one < 1263428057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep, man < 1263428059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep < 1263428066 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deepseq < 1263428071 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lol) < 1263428529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1263428538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could achieve that just by making all the base functions parallel < 1263428542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if (:) is parallel < 1263428546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the basic map definition is too < 1263428562 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's clever < 1263428577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as long as you don't offer seq, you have a totally parallel language < 1263428590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, io becomes a "little" difficult < 1263428647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Eh, main :: InputStream -> OutputStream. < 1263428667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heh, that has the amusing consequence that all the program's computation is done in parallel in the background < 1263428671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it depends on IO < 1263428677 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1263428678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it starts as soon as the relevant variable is available < 1263428681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's kinda cool < 1263428685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimal use of cpu < 1263428995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ought to spec poop sometime. < 1263429678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: making _everything_ parallel has the slight disadvantage that threading overhead completely eats up any performance gain < 1263429697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, a sufficiently smart compiler will sequentialise small expressions. < 1263429703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1263429719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sufficiently smart compiler will replace your program with a constant expression. < 1263429727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if it depends on user input! < 1263429731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, those sufficiently smart compilers are impossible to make < 1263429748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ask Omega to write them. < 1263429749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sufficiently smart compiler will force user input to allow for this. < 1263429749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at current technology anyway < 1263429752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem solved by virtue of singularity < 1263429906 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1263430401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1263430911 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263431745 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263431772 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263432050 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263432498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ask me about ehirdOS! < 1263432499 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263432598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: About ehirdOS? < 1263432645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not enquote that! < 1263432809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, fine. < 1263432809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ehirdOS? < 1263432840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ehirdOS! Be more specific, that's like saying "X." to Prolog. < 1263432869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: What, exactly, is there about ehirdOS that is making you state "Someone ask me about ehirdOS!"? < 1263432886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's awesome and revolutionises computation and yeah. < 1263432902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything new regarding the matter? < 1263432925 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263433045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, I thought about it more and changed my mind a bit and stuff. < 1263433048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing too specific. :P < 1263433168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Details, por favor? < 1263433340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: About ehirdOS or the changes? < 1263433351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bear in mind that it's ephemeral enough that it never really changes, only its... location in... concept... space. < 1263433354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding the changes. < 1263433415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are a tricksy, difficult fellow. < 1263433421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you ask me something general and timeless? :P < 1263433443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many roads must a man go down? < 1263433496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want to shoot you sometime. < 1263433499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you now < 1263433512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1263433520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(↑ This is your brain trying to degeneralise types.) < 1263433522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Any questions?) < 1263433562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I point my gun at your foot. I pull the trigger. < 1263433572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will, in a bit, observe your foot. < 1263433577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expect pain. < 1263433635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION observes ehird's foot < 1263433659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hears the evaluation of pullTrigger :: Gun -> IO a < 1263433661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let foot' = shoot foot in foot' `seq` () < 1263433786 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love freenode's infinite timeouts < 1263433824 0 :augur_!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263433836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love your mom < 1263433840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1263434657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay SOMEONE ask about ehirdOS < 1263434662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1263434717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's augur_ < 1263434727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not coppro though, I don't feel like _defending_ it :D < 1263434727 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1263434815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263434985 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1263435008 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263435108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1263435257 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1263435473 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1263435525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so weird < 1263435536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finally done with school for the semester and I feel nothing less than an urge to do more math < 1263435544 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actual schoolwork math, not fun math) < 1263435619 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263435624 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263436073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: okay fine ask me about ehirdOS < 1263436076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DEAL WITH WHAT I CAN GET < 1263436106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is not schoolwork math, so clearly he is not interested < 1263436107 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: How much time is it taking away from Amend? < 1263436129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Brain time, a fair amount. Coding time? You're kidding me; no way is it ready for coding yet. < 1263436137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdOS is the first known instance of the First System Syndrome. < 1263436137 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1263436148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My roadmap includes terms like "in ten years". < 1263436155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(imaginary insofar as it's only in my head) < 1263436164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: also, *amend < 1263436171 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1263437037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263437059 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263439866 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1263441901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263441941 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263442689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1263444399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1263445582 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-40-180.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1263446528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1263446602 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263447995 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263448732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1263450761 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263452787 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263455999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1263456000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1263458895 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263459746 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-66-48.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1263459868 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1263460342 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1263461997 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263462427 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1263463525 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1263464169 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1263464270 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263468126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, /Evince/ has crash recovery? < 1263468135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's unexpected, it makes hardly any sense for a document /reader/ < 1263468451 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1263468933 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1263469023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh no, i gave someone a terminal size virus < 1263470105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a terminal (size virus) or a (terminal size) virus? < 1263470521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(terminal size) virus < 1263470535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, someone was playing a terminal game via dgamelaunch with an 80x26 terminal < 1263470545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other people who wanted to watch them therefore also had to set their terminal to 80x26 < 1263470553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was so similar to 80x24, they forgot to set it back < 1263470560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when playing games themselves, they also used 80x26 < 1263470562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1263471195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? really? < 1263471200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about crash recovery that is < 1263471205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1263471217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it remembers where in the page you'd scrolled to < 1263471223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't lose your place in a long document if your computer crashes < 1263471246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : because it was so similar to 80x24, they forgot to set it back <-- 80x25 you mean? < 1263471270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 80x24 is standard terminal size on Unices < 1263471272 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263471273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80x25 is a DOS size < 1263471287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, linux vt is 80x25 by default iirc? < 1263471300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: VT102 is 80x24 < 1263471302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what everyone emulates < 1263471305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming VGA console, not framebuffer one (which is usually much higher) < 1263471324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, everyone uses a much larger terminal window though in practise < 1263471331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for everything < 1263471343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use 80x24 when termcasting, to make it easier for other people to watch < 1263471345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my konsole is 150x40 or so usually < 1263471348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my laptop < 1263471353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit taller on my destkop < 1263471358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desktop* < 1263471369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, termcasting? < 1263471381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do that < 1263471386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: streaming a termrec so that other people can watch what you're doing < 1263471396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263471401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly done by roguelike players and developers, for some reason < 1263471408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably they're used to using ttys rather than GUI programs < 1263471412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that how it works on NAO? < 1263471413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*streaming a ttyrec < 1263471415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1263471459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1263471493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also, how well does ttyrec work with ncurses programs? < 1263471504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does nethack use ncurses?) < 1263471504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as with anything else < 1263471513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, even with ncurses mouse support being used? < 1263471516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as the person who wrote the program doesn't call refresh() all the time < 1263471522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's an input < 1263471529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :termcasting streams only output < 1263471531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does refresh() do in ncurses now again < 1263471541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually updates the screen < 1263471544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most other commands just update memory < 1263471558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttyrecs get very big if the screen is redrawn repeatedly, rather than in batches < 1263471572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as to your question a while back, NetHack might or might not use curses depending on the build < 1263471577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one reason to not use ncurses: common function names used with no ncurses-specific prefix < 1263471581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad API basically < 1263471582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are three different terminal drivers there, and I think only one uses curses < 1263471586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of them are even macros < 1263471783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the curses API and Nethack; win/tty/terminfo.c from Nethack: http://pastebin.com/m42a4a870 < 1263471792 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A snippet of it, anyway. < 1263471883 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263471933 0 :nodd!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1263473216 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263473448 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1263473951 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263475001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think that file isn't always used in a standard compile, though < 1263475004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to add to the fun < 1263475199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "ttyrecs get very big if the screen is redrawn repeatedly" — is it completely uncompressed or something? < 1263475210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1263475221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is completely uncompressed < 1263475221 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit unfortunate < 1263475231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttyrecs normally get bz2's later < 1263475238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much like tarballs are .tar.gz < 1263475246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let one format worry about representing the data, the other about making it small < 1263475280 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, so does the bigness matter much if you can stream it straight to a compressor < 1263475349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it matters because when termcasting, ttyrecs are streamed uncompressed < 1263475369 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, see, and that's the unfortunate bit :-P < 1263475389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, probably termcasting should be done with ssh rather than telnet < 1263475398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rarely uses a specialist program to receive the stream, you see < 1263475406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ssh can send compressed, telnet can't < 1263475412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lYep < 1263475415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-l < 1263475488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : much like tarballs are .tar.gz <-- .tar.bz2 is equally common < 1263475494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, since a few years < 1263475503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, same point applies < 1263475521 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.tar.Z isn't seen much these days < 1263475527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1263475533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.tar.lzma is getting more common < 1263475538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not very common yet < 1263475589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only place I have seen pax in is ick < 1263475626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let one format worry about representing the data, the other about making it small <-- so you suggest websites should use .bmp.bz2? < 1263475635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than gif or png or such < 1263475643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's effectively what formats like gif or png are, though < 1263475644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some other format would be needed for transparency < 1263475652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not really for png I would say < 1263475661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, .bmp.bz2 would be a reasonable image format if bmp didn't have truly awful headers < 1263475680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, png encoding is complex to say the least. < 1263475695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure 4 bit grayscale is possible < 1263475696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense to use a compression format designed specifically for images, too < 1263475706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than something generic like bz2 < 1263475707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 bit grayscale + 8 bit alpha too < 1263475712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that requires information about what you're compressing < 1263475732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you have an image format and compression algo that basically need to be used together, why not give it a single filename < 1263475739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. I believe png does use deflate after doing various delta encoding < 1263475818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also, tiff supports deflate. It even supports row-diff encoding. krita supports saving as the latter, but gimp does not (as far as I have found). Gimp can still open row-diff encoded tiff < 1263475835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're starting to sound like zzo38, stop it < 1263475847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what bit was like zzo? < 1263475854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Re. "why not give it a single filename", exactly, why not do ttyrec like this ;-) < 1263475861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the line above the one I made < 1263475865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you could, I suppose < 1263475873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I meant, what part of it < 1263475881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more to the point is that ttyrec shows signs of having been written in about 10 minutes, and was good enough for the job < 1263475886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sentence structure? Word choice? < 1263475893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sentence structure, I think < 1263475902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't pinpoint the issue in it < 1263475904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the semantic relations between the sentences there < 1263475918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1263475945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, krtia is painful to use I find, still, it is better than gimp due to actually supporting what I need < 1263475987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is: 16-bit integer per channel and 32-bit floating point per channel) < 1263476002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and non-sRGB of course < 1263476008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp supports that partly < 1263476011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not very well < 1263476036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1263476049 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me, v < 1263476051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw did you see the news about google in china < 1263476066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everyone in the country's seen the news about google in china, I think < 1263476071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1263476072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably everyone in the world but some of the Chinese < 1263476078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all over the tech news, all over the non-tech news < 1263476080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/some/most/ < 1263476089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was in the morning newspaper today < 1263476095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1263476106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't reach the front page due to the earth quake in Haiti < 1263476135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is that how it is spelt in English too?) < 1263476144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1263476163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why isn't it spelled, or even spellt? < 1263476273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irregular verb, most languages have them < 1263476278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they rarely follow a pattern < 1263476281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, still irritating < 1263476292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, it's most likely "spelt" because that's close to how the verb in question would be conjugated in German < 1263476305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? interesting < 1263476322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has stolen grammar as well as words from all sorts of other languages < 1263476338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but German's one of the more common inspirations < 1263476344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any laptop where the built-in speakers are actually of decent quality? < 1263476445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, given that speaker quality is mostly a function of size < 1263476455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's hard to fit a large speaker into a small laptop < 1263476493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263476508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if that is so, how comes there are headphones that are very good quality < 1263476517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, studio headphones < 1263476518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"spelled" is valid < 1263476530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: but unusual, and I think it might even have a different meaning from "spelt" < 1263476535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is weird < 1263476552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah there was some other word like that I ran across recently < 1263476553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm pretty sure it's just the US style < 1263476568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes: "I spelt the word 'wierd' but I was wrong", vs. "my name is spelled 'ais523'" < 1263476573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, at least < 1263476574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other meaning was as some tool for making paper (historical, not used nowdays iirc) < 1263476578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what word it was < 1263476600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clue is technically a small wooden ball used to help with making clothes from wool < 1263476606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wiktionary at least confirms my thoughts that they're equivalent but led is US and t is UK < 1263476606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, if you were clueless, it was substantially harder < 1263476613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah < 1263478878 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1263479283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snowing again < 1263479285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1263479306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in this case, it's most likely "spelt" because that's close to how the verb in question would be conjugated in German < 1263479321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would suspect s/German/Anglo-Saxon/ < 1263479322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is this going to be an insightful comment or a terrible pun? < 1263479326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, insightful comment < 1263479345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, even i get to make those on occasion < 1263479357 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about Old German here, probably before it was split into Low German and High German < 1263479360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they _are_ both descended from proto-Germanic, after all < 1263479366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anglo-Saxon was based on Low German, I think < 1263479373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1263479389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for all I know, we're both right < 1263479398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm slightly disappointed at the lack of a terrible pun, though < 1263479412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although one of the headlines in the paper a couple of days ago was so a pun so bad it physically hurt < 1263479440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, Norwegian frequently varies between -t and -d as ending, for supposedly regular verbs < 1263479487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sometimes -a to, i think that was -ad originally) < 1263479495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the English name for those (most commonly yellow) vehicles that aren't used to dig in the ground, but to load sand and such into trucks < 1263479507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then so does english, when you look at pronunciation < 1263479524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: most commonly known by the brand name of the major manufacturer, JCB < 1263479528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure what the generic name is < 1263479531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it's still -ad/-ade in swedish isn't it < 1263479536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263479541 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backhoe? < 1263479541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is? < 1263479551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :past verb endings < 1263479555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some verbs < 1263479575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You do dig ground with a backhoe. < 1263479589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, anyway. < 1263479627 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JCB's listed in wiktionary as a case of trademark erosion: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JCB < 1263479630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what was that pun in the paper < 1263479647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is one clearing away all the snow that has ended up on the sidewalks after being cleared away from the streat. Filling up trucks (that operate in a round robin fashion, that is to say, one is being filled up while the other two are being driven to/from wherever they dump the snow) < 1263479648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it was an article about a Cher impersonator < 1263479653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called "Cher and Cher-alike" < 1263479670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you don't need to clear away the snow in UK to prevent flooding when it melts < 1263479672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling that they thought up the headline first, then tried to engineer a story to apply it to < 1263479680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering how little snow there usually is there ;P < 1263479684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...oh... does that even make sense to a non-geek :D < 1263479702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but it contains a cultural reference you possibly missed < 1263479707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for some verbs <-- well yes < 1263479707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1263479712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we do get flooding when it melts, but we get flooded quite a lot anyway, with rain < 1263479721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1263479725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think the efforts go more towards dealing with all the water when it's in water form rather than snow form < 1263479740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1263479771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well cher-alike = share-alike is what i thought, which is afaik license terminology < 1263479787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 15 meters (length along sidewalk that is) worth of snow seems to fill up one truck < 1263479788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "share and share alike" is an English phrase < 1263479793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1263479797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the licence name is a reference to the same phrase < 1263479811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1263479858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not just the sidewalk, the street is considerably wider after they cleared it away < 1263479872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the snow, not the street) < 1263479928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sidewalk" is a US term, the UK equivalent is "pavement" < 1263479938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoyingly, "pavement" has a US meaning too, making it rather ambiguous < 1263479973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it _is_ nice to actually be able to walk on the sidewalk rather than in the middle of the road too, so i'm not sure it is just flooding :D < 1263480024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although without a flooding issue it might very well be an easier target for those inevitable cost-cuttings < 1263480095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it already is, around here < 1263480236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one advantage of the really cold weather we've got now is that the snow stays mostly as is rather than turning into the ice that makes everyone complain about bad clearing < 1263480573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is nice to be able to actually have two cars meet on the road < 1263480585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the snow was (almost) preventing that < 1263480674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION might have remembered that if he actually drove a car :) < 1263480712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i guess busses actually have that problem even worse < 1263480729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems people have been walking on the canal over here, judging by the footprints < 1263480748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no mysterious breaks in the ice at the end? < 1263480753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, some people got arrested for reckless driving after trying to drive a car down a canal, with the ice breaking beneath them < 1263480755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not for the people < 1263480837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there are winter roads over lakes in Sweden < 1263480851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some years. This year definitely < 1263480872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also getting arrested for that doesn't seem like their largest issue < 1263480885 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lake-ice-roads exist here too. < 1263480898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees Steve has found something to wrestle < 1263480918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, they survived < 1263480922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm not aware of any here in southern Finland; but there's one across Pielinen. < 1263480925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did the car? < 1263480972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's still in the canal, as far as I know < 1263481045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, that seems like a pretty large issue < 1263481068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coincidentally, they've apparently just (Jan 10th) checked the ice for that particular road; seems there's 23-31 cm of ice there right now. < 1263481069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the jailtime / large fine is likely to be just as large < 1263481089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263481128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is one to an island in Hjälmaren. in north/south direction it would be slightly south of stockholm (but near the middle of the country in east/west direction at that point < 1263481135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(roughly)) < 1263481154 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's quite a shortcut: the road-distance from the nearby skiing resort thing to the geographically-closest town shrinks from 76 km to 14 km when they open the (7 km) road.) < 1263481260 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem to be open right now; they open it when the ice thickness reaches 40 cm. And there are all kinds of restrictions; maximum vehicle weight 3000 kg, minimum distance between vehicles 50 m, no overtaking or stopping. < 1263481352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and low speed I assume < 1263481355 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-22-188.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1263481371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 km/h, I think. So yes. < 1263481384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's also a photo, although it's spectacularly boring: http://www.tiehallinto.fi/pls/julia/docs/9679.JPG < 1263481392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the lake roads here are at 40 km/h or such < 1263481393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's just flat snowy field. < 1263481411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is even a tree there < 1263481416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure it is correct? < 1263481434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they stick branches to the snowbanks to mark the road a bit. < 1263481439 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not much of a tree. < 1263481441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263481468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you get trees of that size if you go far enough north in Sweden < 1263481522 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263481731 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1263481732 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1263481758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a colleague from work had photographed those snowy trees better; the university campus has some outdoor tree-lighting going on. http://ouzo.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Muuta/Talvi10/Otaniemi1201-007.jpg for example. < 1263481820 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually http://ouzo.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Muuta/Talvi10/Otaniemi1201-013.jpg was the one I *meant* to give as an example. < 1263481839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it has that "facility management and security" sign in a spooky-ish environment. < 1263482226 0 :zeotrope!n=sazeinel@bas3-kitchener06-1096650646.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1263483046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice they added Swedish text too < 1263483055 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1263483090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's an official sort of a language. < 1263483109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have mandatory Swedish exams as a part of the university degree and all. < 1263483947 0 :Cerise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cerise < 1263483967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1263483977 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest32065 < 1263485801 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1263486496 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.236.31 JOIN :#esoteric < 1263487005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Helpful hint: Every time you think the answer to a practical question is the Halting Problem, you are most likely wrong. < 1263487006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, really. Every time." < 1263487182 0 :nodd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )" < 1263487518 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, NP-complete. NP-complete is only about the worst cases, the best and usual cases can be clearly subexponential. < 1263487689 0 :nodd!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1263487695 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263487813 0 :nodd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263487833 0 :nodd!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1263487877 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263488393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, really. Every time." <-- how do you mean? < 1263488408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. It's a quote, thus the quote marks. < 1263488415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. What do you mean, "how do you mean"? < 1263488418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right splot over two lines < 1263488423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :split* < 1263488438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that the quote didn't end with the first line < 1263488529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as in, I'm pretty sure that "you can't parse all perl (perl 5 at least) code without executing it" seems like a good example of a practical problem where the answer is a result of the halting problem < 1263488560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a practical problem. After all, people *do* parse and manipulate Perl source code, or rather Perl documents (I think that's the right terminology). < 1263488580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl documents XD < 1263488598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The purpose of PPI is not to parse Perl Code, but to parse Perl Documents. By treating the problem this way, we are able to parse a single file containing Perl source code "isolated" from any other resources, such as libraries upon which the code may depend, and without needing to run an instance of perl alongside or inside the parser.]] < 1263488601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and esolangs in general is not a practical problem by that definition < 1263488605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people actually use it. < 1263488612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course esolangs aren't practical... < 1263488631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *some* esolang are almost practical < 1263488637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1263488673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge98 comes to mind as being one of the almost practical ones < 1263488722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm btw, has anyone considered a 2D intercal. While I admit I'm not certain about how, I do have a few vague ideas. < 1263488748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it would probably be non-deterministic < 1263488758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1263488761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's IFFI < 1263488771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I meant in intercal itself < 1263488787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge + iffi works pretty intercal-like < 1263488792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it has the same control structures < 1263488801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge98 is barely esoteric, though. < 1263488808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the interpreter would execute the code either horizontally or vertically, possibly alternating between lines/columns < 1263488810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263488817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Befunge-98 < 1263488821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs more work I admit < 1263488822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hideously complex, like ALGOL 68. < 1263488829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's certainly not easy to use. < 1263488837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't really have any weirdly esoteric features. < 1263488853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nothing wrong with complexity. Not every esolang has to be a tarpit < 1263488869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said that. < 1263488876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just saying that its complexity is not an esoteric aspect. < 1263488900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a hideously complex language that isn't all that comfortable to code in. All its esotericness is inherited from Befunge-93. < 1263488913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd call Befunge-93 an esolang, but Befunge-98 more of an... honorary esolang extension. < 1263488918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The things it adds to -93 aren't esoteric. < 1263488919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't k pretty esoteric? < 1263488931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, k, granted. Lots of languages have strange features, though :P < 1263488936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering it can do 0,2,3,4,... repeats < 1263488939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not 1 < 1263488943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are all the other issues with it < 1263488945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though. < 1263488949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but that's just spec issues. < 1263488951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1263488961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't see -98 as bringing anything particularly esoteric to the table given -93. < 1263488966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confusion, yes, but not esotericness. < 1263488976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you could put down at least a number of "issues" with intercal to the spec < 1263488983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL* < 1263488995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but INTERCAL has plenty of oddities besides. < 1263489000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1263489012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying -98 is a boring language or anything. < 1263489019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also what about TOYS? < 1263489025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't think that the things it adds to -93 are sufficiently esoteric for it to count as esoteric apart from its -93 heritage. < 1263489031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's not part of the language. < 1263489040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is a catseye fingerprint < 1263489051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1263489081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you could say it is a standard extension < 1263489096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, if you don't count fingerprints it is more limited < 1263489099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keyword extension. < 1263489114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's stdlib could have a change_the_entire_semantics_of_the_language() function; that doesn't make Python esoteric. < 1263489120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although it makes the stdlib maintainer insane.) < 1263489146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about {} for python. Isn't that a pretty esoteric usage of python? < 1263489163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you consider that, perligata and so on... < 1263489180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can you explain to AnMaster the difference between an esolang and an esoteric abuse of a language, please? < 1263489182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1263489200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course I know the difference < 1263489207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: looks like I don't have to < 1263489214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"esoteric usage" is quite different from "esolang", of course < 1263489234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if there are rules to the usage, it's possible that you can make an esolang that's a subset of a real lang < 1263489252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway befunge98 is esoteric IMO. Sure, not as much as INTERCAL is. brainfuck isn't very esoteric either. Sure it is a tarpit, but it doesn't really have any features not found in other languages < 1263489265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION, DYNAMIC-WIND, WITH-VALUES, VALUES and a LAMBDA restricted to make it sub-TC. < 1263489273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the subset as a whole being TC. < 1263489275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* would be fun. < 1263489299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Brainfuck gets its esotericness out of sheer programmer pain, I think. It isn't very esoteric, though. < 1263489303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yes, -98 is an esolang. < 1263489313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tarpitty, which is normally considered separately from esotericness < 1263489313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, if you took just the -98 parts, and ignored what it inherits from -93? Nah. < 1263489316 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has an eso syntax < 1263489319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think -93 is what deserves the credit there. < 1263489329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that would be /very/ eso, the flow control would be nicely weird, etc < 1263489340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine Befunge without < > ^ v or any of the other 93 commands < 1263489347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, befunge is quite painful to code in too. I definitely agree that brainfuck is worse though < 1263489355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"EVOM"(...) < 1263489361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It lets you move around! < 1263489369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1263489388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually you could use x still < 1263489392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I suppose so < 1263489400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but testing would only be with w < 1263489401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or [ and ] < 1263489405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you couldn't do a logical not < 1263489407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or were they 93 too? < 1263489408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or that < 1263489412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, they weren't iir < 1263489413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc* < 1263489426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logical not can be emulated with other operators < 1263489427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does w work? < 1263489431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. what does it do? < 1263489460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pop a and b, compare, do like ] or [ if the differ (depending on which is greatest. Just go straight ahead if they are the same < 1263489473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do ] and [ do? < 1263489493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, [ turns pi/2 radians counter-clockwise < 1263489498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] does the same but clockwise < 1263489513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean π½. < 1263489519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this becomes quite confusing if the IP isn't traveling cardinally < 1263489532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, hmm < 1263489536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So not is just == false < 1263489540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is false, right? < 1263489553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 0w is not. < 1263489555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1263489558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, something like < 1263489560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm no < 1263489563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0w(it's false, so push true) < 1263489565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is "is different or same as 0" < 1263489577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also there is nothing that says 0 is false afaik < 1263489579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1263489598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, what's false? < 1263489603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what does "is different or same as 0" mean? < 1263489605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a tautology. < 1263489626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as in, I don't believe boolean-ess is used much by the befunge core functions. Apart from logical not < 1263489635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, at least not if you remove the 93 part < 1263489655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes 0 is false in the 93 part. if that is what you meant < 1263489663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what is the semantics of "not"? < 1263489667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitwise not, do you mean? < 1263489677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what are the semantics < 1263489693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, logical not. But *as I said* it is befunge93, and wouldn't exist in this "98 added features only" subset < 1263489710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were discussing that subset, no? < 1263489726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1263489733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about implementing logical not in the subset. < 1263489739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does 98-only have a way to compare? < 1263489742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use w to do ==? < 1263489749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 98-only to compare is w < 1263489764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w is the three-way compare, you can do anything with it < 1263489764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as I said it goes straight ahead if equal < 1263489764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, well, (x==false) is not < 1263489770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So use w to do ==false, like I said < 1263489784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it does the true branch, push true < 1263489787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it does the false branch, push false < 1263489789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done < 1263489801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is no addition or substraction in this 98-only subset < 1263489809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need it... < 1263489812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor multiplication, division or modulo < 1263489816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1263489820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the numbers 0-9 doesn't exist < 1263489822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a-f < 1263489832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0w won't work < 1263489834 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure they do < 1263489838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' < 1263489843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, good point < 1263489872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, we just totally esoed up. < 1263489890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still you claiming that this subset isn't very esoteric is quite wrong. It is possibly more esoteric than 93 was. Considering it will have SGML spaces in stringmode, but not have an actual string mode for example < 1263489935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This subset on its own is highly esoteric. < 1263489942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed < 1263489943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point is that in 98 = 93 + 98subset, < 1263489950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 98subset doesn't contribute much to the overall esotericness of 98. < 1263489994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, someone should totally make an 98subset interpreter < 1263489994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 98subset can't do much without fingerprints < 1263490020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not < 1263490022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be a couple of minutes worth of adding #ifdef to cfunge to do it for example < 1263490028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1263490034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably TC < 1263490037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with fingerprints it isn't very eso any longer < 1263490041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to k and # and all that kind of thing < 1263490045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No # < 1263490046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, # isn't there < 1263490048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, right < 1263490053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, due to k and w, and, stuff. < 1263490053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No stdio makes it a pain < 1263490054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean IOwise? < 1263490055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k is yes < 1263490065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just have a real-time view of the stack :P < 1263490069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No math is a pain < 1263490070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no stdio < 1263490076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is file io however < 1263490076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263490083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So open /dev/stdout < 1263490085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And /dev/stdin < 1263490085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No p and g is a pain < 1263490086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem solved < 1263490090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Who needs 'em < 1263490108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who don't enjoy pain < 1263490110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, alas it won't work that way, since it open (truncate mode), writes, closes < 1263490121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do it do /dev/tty then < 1263490123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for input it will lock up until ctrl-d < 1263490129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why are they coding Befunge < 1263490133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it reads the whole file < 1263490139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Do it to < 1263490140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Befunge is fun < 1263490141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh well < 1263490143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just only do batch input < 1263490148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Then use something other than Befunge-98subset < 1263490176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I also have some doubts about /dev/tty, but I'm not certain about that < 1263490177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like all of 98? ;-P < 1263490187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :D < 1263490187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Precisely < 1263490208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Relying on w so much will be fun < 1263490211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiral programs! < 1263490217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway, the fact that there is no math without fingerprints for 98subset makes me wonder what you can actually compute < 1263490235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we have branching (w) < 1263490236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you can only read/write one char ahead of yourself to funge-space now < 1263490237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we have looping? < 1263490251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, s jumps over right? < 1263490251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do w and [/] to get back to where you started? < 1263490255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geometrically < 1263490262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1263490263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes < 1263490267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird was that [, /, ] ? < 1263490269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have conditional loops. < 1263490271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [ and ] < 1263490273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1263490278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have branches, loops, and we can push things to the stack. < 1263490285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw I don't believe there is pop stack any more < 1263490290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor swap < 1263490292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1263490295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is "clear all" though < 1263490299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I was getting to that < 1263490304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pop is "pop one" < 1263490323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, branching, loops and constants. What about manipulation; we need some sort of arithmetic-like operation. < 1263490324 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With u and a lot of messing around it's probably possible to do the basic stack ops < 1263490324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1263490326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1263490327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263490331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y could be useful < 1263490332 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasting a lot of memory and CPU in the process < 1263490332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow < 1263490338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that hurts to think about < 1263490342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasting? I call it putting to good use < 1263490344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll be shuffling lots of stacks < 1263490349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1263490353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We really need a compiler for this to work out where to place everything for w :P < 1263490363 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why lack of p and g is also a pain < 1263490378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We fucking get it, Deewiant. < 1263490380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98subset is a pain. < 1263490383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole point. :P < 1263490385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No temporaries, you only have a stack of stacks of which you can access the top < 1263490386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1263490399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have r < 1263490400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The topmost element of the topmost stack, that is < 1263490401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r might be useful < 1263490410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find r completely useless < 1263490412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is s and ', but making use of that would require approaching the code one way to set the variable and another way for reading it < 1263490417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1263490419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have space < 1263490424 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have ; < 1263490427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same difference < 1263490428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We do have z though < 1263490436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that too < 1263490450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The programs will be very sleepy. < 1263490453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzzzzzzzzz < 1263490459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's true... but not necessarily useful < 1263490464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw we have fungespace, but not inside a 80x25 area from origo < 1263490471 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1263490471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, we would have a hole there < 1263490472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay, now that's ridiculous. < 1263490477 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All programs have to be outside the initial 80x25 area < 1263490481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-98 completely redefines Funge-Space itself. < 1263490491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By that argument, Befunge-98 doesn't have an IP < 1263490493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, but we can't use the 93 area in it < 1263490497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because -93 had one too < 1263490500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1263490505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-98subset < 1263490506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh indeed, it only has one after the first t < 1263490507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-93 had a PC < 1263490508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1263490510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-98 has an IP < 1263490513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what Deewiant said < 1263490516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or more IPs) < 1263490525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-93 had stacks < 1263490527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1263490531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "stack" < 1263490532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had a single < 1263490535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1263490538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Befunge-98 has a stack, too < 1263490540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, it has many < 1263490541 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-93 had a stack, -98 has a stack stack < 1263490542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them must go < 1263490545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We must do all operations using only stack stacks. < 1263490549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, only the first one < 1263490556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that is better < 1263490558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all stacks identical to -93's. < 1263490563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEY MUST BE ABOLISHED < 1263490585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have a stack of non-existent stacks < 1263490590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :existent? existant? < 1263490594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelling? < 1263490599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how do we do bits on the stack < 1263490604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WhatStack stack that is < 1263490608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extant < 1263490651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Shush you < 1263490656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure? existent seems to mean what I meant according to define: < 1263490660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: non-existent < 1263490660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for extant though < 1263490668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant is just concising < 1263490677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still in existence; not extinct or destroyed or lost; "extant manuscripts"; "specimens of graphic art found among extant barbaric folk"- Edward ... < 1263490677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn < 1263490677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He probably thinks his editor automatically inserts indention at the start of code lines, too < 1263490689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WordNet is not an acceptable dictionary. < 1263490694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not? < 1263490702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still in existence; Currently existing; not having disappeared; Still alive; not extinct < 1263490703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extant < 1263490705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot more too < 1263490715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it takes an awful lot of people to make a good dictionary. WordNet does many non-dictionary things and does not have an awful lot of people. < 1263490722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor does it profit solely because of its dictionary activities. < 1263490730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is still http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extant < 1263490755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say the definition was incorrect. < 1263490760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263490809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if we do have stack and complete funge space < 1263490832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say that the rule is that only *commands* in Befunge-93 are removed. < 1263490842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec doesn't really make sense without Befunge-93's infrastructure. < 1263490846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the funge space hole *is* funny though < 1263490852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes :P < 1263490862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would work as a good garbage collector < 1263490873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All cells of funge-space are continually drawn to that whole < 1263490874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only stack operation we have is "clear stack" (that is, as listed in the section "Stack Manipulation" of the 98 spec) < 1263490878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to use data, you have to pull it back < 1263490882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada, funge GC < 1263490885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop, duplicate and swap are all gone < 1263490896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1263490896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a completely ecologically friendly method of waste disposal < 1263490923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about n < 1263490925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't n some fancy thingy < 1263490930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is clear stack < 1263490950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just removes all item on the current stack < 1263490990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*items < 1263490994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple solution, then < 1263490996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pop is just < 1263491004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move all items except the top one to another stack < 1263491005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, we do still have = which is basically system() (and behaviour is equally implementation defined to system(). spec says it could be system() or it could be something else) < 1263491006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clear stack < 1263491009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pop stack < 1263491012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever < 1263491015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1263491022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Clearly = should execute Befunge-93 code < 1263491027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1263491052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaab{a} is $ I think < 1263491062 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a non-empty stack < 1263491062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ...:D < 1263491067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that many a? < 1263491068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should execute unefunge < 1263491080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Best code snippet ever < 1263491084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, alternatively '<0x1>{'} < 1263491085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unefunge-98subset? < 1263491090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's better :P < 1263491101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, let's keep to printable characters here. :P < 1263491105 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you want to stick to ASCII, 10*a it is < 1263491108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*let's stick < 1263491126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That only works on 32-bit funges, doesn't it? < 1263491139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how so? < 1263491160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263491165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out how it couldn't work in 64-bit too < 1263491186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't it rely on integer overflow to get 1? < 1263491193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1263491198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all? < 1263491205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought by '<0x1> you meant it was equivalent < 1263491206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But okay < 1263491211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well it does the same < 1263491218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'<0x1> means ' followed by the byte 0x1 < 1263491228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1263491229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the first one pushes a lot of crap values on the stack so you can pop them < 1263491235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't pop just one < 1263491236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see where overflow is implied < 1263491236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see. < 1263491248 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdeabcdeb{a} < 1263491249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I thought you were using a/b to make a really big number then push it over the edge, so that it pushes 1 < 1263491251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's easier to type < 1263491252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as '<0x1> < 1263491262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't do that < 1263491264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To combine numbers I'd need something like * < 1263491268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which we don't have :-P < 1263491269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1263491269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, since you can't combine them < 1263491269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1263491271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just guessing < 1263491273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1263491276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1263491281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That d deleted that line; shut up.) < 1263491292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I was just about to say we have both ] and d still < 1263491297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can always specify unicode to make life simpler < 1263491302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'ä to push 228 < 1263491336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ä is in ISO-whatever too? < 1263491347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: With our control flow, life will never be simple. < 1263491350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop breaking the spec :P < 1263491355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw we can't actually use x instead of <>v^ < 1263491356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1263491362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can but only for useless deltas < 1263491375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we can't get 1 on stack without non-printable stuff < 1263491377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure, but that breaks once you go over 255 :-P < 1263491382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1263491387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Unicode is easy to support < 1263491395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, we wouldn't want that < 1263491401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes things too easy < 1263491407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But it's not spec. < 1263491423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quasispec < 1263491424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/not/not in the/ < 1263491427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Don't care. < 1263491450 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see you don't < 1263491453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as I said, we do have x to set delta to a dx/dy pair. But we can't set it to any useful delta < 1263491457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying, it can be done if you want to. < 1263491460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find this quite amusing for some reason < 1263491489 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since you can't reset the delta in any way except with another x, you're screwed if you end up on that road < 1263491495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since ][ just rotate < 1263491521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just never do it, then < 1263491534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We only need 2D for w, and [ and ] to branch back :P < 1263491534 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much, yep < 1263491540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, like file IO can only write 10-15 * 10-15 bytes. (those are ranges, not minus) < 1263491549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine by me! < 1263491582 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: We're allowing ASCII so ' can give you some other values < 1263491587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can write less since it strips trailing whitespace < 1263491591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh good point < 1263491594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that < 1263491606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, rather limited I fear < 1263491612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the best esolang ever < 1263491619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm wait, how are we supposed to set binary/text mode? < 1263491624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't. < 1263491625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't push either 0 or 1 there < 1263491633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus we can't do output < 1263491638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the parameter won't be valid < 1263491644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is gettable with an empty stack < 1263491653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well depends on order < 1263491654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But difficultly < 1263491659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks the spec < 1263491667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see here < 1263491671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, stack stack? < 1263491683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the flag is in the middle < 1263491686 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdeabcdea{b} pushes 0... maybe < 1263491703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Also, if the least significant bit of the flags cell is high, o treats the file as a linear text file; that is, any spaces before each EOL, and any EOLs before the EOF, are not written out. The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space. " < 1263491704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263491711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay looks like we can get it < 1263491712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait < 1263491714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is a bitmask < 1263491734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is basically abcde{}lang < 1263491735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1263491736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f for example is 1 in LSB isn't it? < 1263491760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and e would be 0 in LSB < 1263491761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1263491768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange parameters for the flag, but it would work < 1263491785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hrrm does cfunge actually only check that bit *looks* < 1263491812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdeabcdea{b}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a}abcdeabcdeb{a} < 1263491815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That pushes 0 < 1263491818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263491819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love you. < 1263491837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably an easier way < 1263491839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it does < 1263491840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : textfile = (bool)(stack_pop(ip->stack) & 1); < 1263491841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1263491842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263491849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly once you have a zero already < 1263491850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why did I explicitly cast it??) < 1263491871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I expect my98sbst.98s ASAP < 1263491884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I can't follow in that code < 1263491886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MYcology 98 SuBSeT . 98 Subset) < 1263491924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I doubt it. It would require completely restructuring and rewriting almost everything < 1263491955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can you get a 4? < 1263491958 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Trivial enough: implement all of 98 passing mycology.b98, then enable subset mode and run through mysubsan.98s (MYcology SUBset SANity.98 Subset), which just checks that the 93 ones reflect < 1263491963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you would be unable to use almost all fingerprints < 1263491966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No < 1263491970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1263491974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think, anyway < 1263491978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no currently existing fingerprints < 1263491979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1263491990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't push the 4 for number of bytes used for it < 1263491996 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes you can < 1263491999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's modular arithmetic < 1263492008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is bitshift iirc? < 1263492010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to use "AMOR"4 < 1263492030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1263492032 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use "FOOBARBAZQ"a or whatever that happens to give the same result < 1263492052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It'd check that crazy a/b/{/} combos work, though. < 1263492055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, are you certain it isn't bitshift? < 1263492067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if so, you need to do something about mycology: < 1263492069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : while (fpsize--) { < 1263492069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fprint <<= 8; < 1263492069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fprint += stack_pop(ip->stack); < 1263492069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1263492076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my code to pop the fingerprint it seems < 1263492091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same difference < 1263492100 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fprint is still not a bigint, it wraps < 1263492107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1263492114 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And nope: it's "multiply by 256" < 1263492121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just your premature optimization there < 1263492141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, bitshift by 8 would the the same though < 1263492157 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does, and your compiler realizes that as well :-P < 1263492173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I found the bitshift an easier way to think about it < 1263492206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also are you certain? tcc only does constant folding, nothing else < 1263492206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it easier to do what the spec says :-P < 1263492232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that tcc handled some of the C99 constructs last time I checked, which was over a year ago iirc) < 1263492236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/your compiler/your optimizing compiler/ < 1263492257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1263492287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that would qualify gcc. gcc is optimising. But using it in -O0 is not < 1263492327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1263492345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh I know how you could get low numbers < 1263492349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not reliably though < 1263492351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from y < 1263492364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I said that before. < 1263492367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that y would be useful) < 1263492369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, by careful testing with w you could probably locate a 4 in there < 1263492377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, you get a random low number and you can't inspect what it is :-D < 1263492386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you can compare it to a and 0 < 1263492397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly < 1263492399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then if you find 9 numbers in between < 1263492400 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-49.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263492400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have a number between 1 and 9" < 1263492405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can sort them relative each other < 1263492414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and establish which is which < 1263492422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you might not find all those < 1263492430 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, it's much easier than that isn't it < 1263492436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since y gives stuff like stack size < 1263492440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1263492441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1263492480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it would be a lot more interesting if you had to guess them though < 1263492493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is brilliant < 1263492493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, what number is stack size at < 1263492505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, are you certain you can actually *reach* the stack size? < 1263492511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easily enough < 1263492513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have $ < 1263492518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not $ iirc? < 1263492525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't $ in 93? < 1263492533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He showed an implementation of it. < 1263492536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a/b/{}. < 1263492538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1263492539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdeabcdea{b} < 1263492540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1263492541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1263492593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think abcdefabcde{b} looks nicer < 1263492602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't work. < 1263492605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1263492609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a on TOS when you do { < 1263492612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last a has to be the same < 1263492702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the 23rd item is number of items on the stack < 1263492704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1263492749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New challenge: Write 23 < 1263492771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, y then pop 22 items. then s to store that value somewhere < 1263492779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use that < 1263492783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pop? < 1263492786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that really long snippet? < 1263492788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes < 1263492791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22 times < 1263492795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biggest hello world EVAR < 1263492800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1263492805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello world would be: < 1263492838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1263492850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'d'r'o'w' 'o'l'l'e'H followed by some file IO stuff < 1263492860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't do stdio < 1263492863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1263492888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use o on Hello world somwhere in the funge space < 1263492897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :placed at an accessible position of corse < 1263492899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 10,10 < 1263492936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*course < 1263492952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1263492996 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 10th y element is the IP's x-position < 1263492998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we still have ;; and j don't we? < 1263493010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an easy way to get many things < 1263493018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh nice. Would work as to find out 23 and then more easily work from there < 1263493037 0 :jpc!n=jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1263493050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since actually creating a lookup table just with that would take quite a bit of space < 1263493074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw, we have threads, and quit. But we do not have exit < 1263493086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit (@) is from befunge93 < 1263493097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this means we can never exit a thread once we started it < 1263493098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That actually sucks ass :-D < 1263493100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: q < 1263493105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, q ends program yes < 1263493106 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Quit the program < 1263493108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1263493108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but @ ends thread < 1263493115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, just make it do nothing forever < 1263493122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use a thread pool < 1263493133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parking them in some loop < 1263493140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And releasing them how exactly < 1263493149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With p? Oh wait WE DON'T HAVE THAT < 1263493149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1263493155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, s? < 1263493175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have to go there yourself < 1263493184 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And park them all in somewhat direction locations < 1263493186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not from the same direction < 1263493187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what < 1263493190 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different locations* < 1263493222 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263493237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about something like: < 1263493239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] ] < 1263493239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : s]' < 1263493239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] ] < 1263493244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they travel clockwise < 1263493250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ /z/g < 1263493255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1263493258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the idea < 1263493277 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll end up with two threads in the same place < 1263493289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, depends on timing < 1263493291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that works, I suppose < 1263493321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the second thread could use another s to fork one off to another direction then overwrite that s with a z < 1263493323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how will you close the pool behind you? :-P < 1263493338 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, tricky < 1263493349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, have a non-cardinal thread to overwrite it with a z? < 1263493351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1263493367 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1263493378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could have it bounce between two r or such < 1263493396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it overwrites it every... uh... hrrm no < 1263493404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to make it loop < 1263493407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't bounce < 1263493414 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263493415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it would overwrite it's 'z < 1263493419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 'zs < 1263493463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, however I'm unsure how you would do: #^t thing < 1263493466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you don't have # < 1263493475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ can easily be replaced < 1263493480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1263493481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have j < 1263493484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1263493534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Deewiant: I suspect 98s would result in very sparse code in part, and very very dense in other parts. Verbose everywhere though < 1263493580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JavaFunge < 1263493589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1263493597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 93 has ? right? < 1263493603 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1263493603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so we wouldn't have any randomness < 1263493604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1263493617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually < 1263493619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could < 1263493624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have y and y has date/time < 1263493632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just code our own PRNG from that in 98s < 1263493639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, will you implement that? ;P < 1263493657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can, certainly < 1263493667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bad RNG is really easy, anyway < 1263493692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was about to suggest mersenne twister < 1263493738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Without +-*/%? < 1263493749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, you'll need those elsewhere anyway < 1263493752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, how does [ and ] work with respect to trefunge? < 1263493776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ignoring the z component? < 1263493791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A simple PRNG will use code something like R = (A * R1 + B) mod(C): R1 = R: R = R / C. Primes are usually used for constants A, B, and C. Most languages have provisions for placing a seed value in R1 before calling the PRNG but it isn't needed and some PRNGs may not bother with the additive constant B. < 1263493791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Always rotate on the z axis < 1263493795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1263493796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1263493811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put the date/time into R1, pick some nice primes for A, B and C (steal from mersenne twister or something), and we're done < 1263493836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, we don't have *+/ or modulo though < 1263493839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 98s < 1263493849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So implement them < 1263493856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, lookup table? < 1263493857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're gonna need them sometime anyway < 1263493863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I was going to suggest using a power of two for C < 1263493865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could bitshift < 1263493866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, uh, prime < 1263493873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Think simpler < 1263493876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no bitshift in core 98 < 1263493876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ is just xor with overflow < 1263493880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor 93 < 1263493882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well < 1263493884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is just + loop < 1263493891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ is just repeated minusing < 1263493896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Where will you get xor < 1263493897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, / and mod actually < 1263493898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is no - either though < 1263493898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :together < 1263493902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Don't know, that's your problem < 1263493908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, see, and that's a problem. :-P < 1263493916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, step 1: implement xor in 98s < 1263493929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even full 98 has it except in some fingerprint < 1263493938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is an mkry fingerprint isn't it? < 1263493947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless ORTH or TOYS had it < 1263493950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, one of his has it. (If not two.) < 1263493972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a xor b) is just ((a and not b) or ((not a) and b)) < 1263493978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already said how to do not with w < 1263493983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and/or are up to you < 1263493986 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitwise not with w? < 1263493989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, we need a way to extract the lowest bit from a number < 1263493995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was logical not < 1263493997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Adding just xors one bit < 1263493999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bitwise not < 1263494001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the same as logical operations < 1263494004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we check if it overflows < 1263494007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if so, go on to the next bit < 1263494017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, if you could extract the lowest bit < 1263494020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which you can't < 1263494024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, why not represent numbers in a different way. Like size of stacks < 1263494031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, haha < 1263494043 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As we established, o's binary mode depends on the lowest bit < 1263494046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, I was thinking that < 1263494048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ...:D < 1263494050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I love you. < 1263494052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh my < 1263494060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, o + i? < 1263494060 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So write something with o, read it back with i, and see whether there's a trailing space < 1263494066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1263494066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dies laughing < 1263494077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that's a wonderful way < 1263494086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just beware of race conditions with t < 1263494089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best way to get number % 2 ever < 1263494091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have one file per thread < 1263494093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the most beautiful language I've ever seen. < 1263494133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, however that might not work < 1263494139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, i and o are optional < 1263494151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check them with 1y however < 1263494153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1263494163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking that bitmask of 1y would be a problem < 1263494175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably easier to check for i and o reflecting < 1263494189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, r isn't in 93 is it? < 1263494203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is, then r would be unimplemented and thus reflect < 1263494211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't then r would be implemented as reflect < 1263494222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite ridiculous < 1263494229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, r is useless, as said. :-P < 1263494245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it is more like "reserved to always reflect" < 1263494250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in normal 98 < 1263494302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, r is useless, as said. :-P < 1263494310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1263494374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was unimplemented defined to reflect in 93? < 1263494380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1263494389 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language are you discussing? < 1263494393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> html head_ body < 1263494394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1263494396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> html head_ head_ < 1263494398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(type error) < 1263494399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot. < 1263494405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-98's subset without Befunge-93 instructions < 1263494415 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1263494416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is going to be the first HTML generation engine that makes liberal use of type theory. < 1263494420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if so, then one could argue that r was implemented in 93 too (even if it wasn't explicitly) and thus should not be in 98s. Instead if should be unimplemented in 98s and reflect < 1263494421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1263494431 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1263494442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a minor distinction in that interpreters can warn on unimplemented instructions < 1263494445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, don't you agree? < 1263494450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh indeed good point < 1263494472 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263494476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attributes are going to be a bitch, I wonder how to do attributes < 1263494481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, perhaps those dynamic variable things < 1263494485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, nah < 1263494487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have sucky syntax < 1263494500 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1263494507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, downside is that everyone will use the same code snippet at the start of 98s programs < 1263494515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be (let ?title = "Poop land"; ?width = 34 in magic []) < 1263494531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which will be: get 4 using y. Load various fingerprints to make life simpler < 1263494534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let ?src = "http://..." in img) < 1263494538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NO < 1263494540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No fingerprints :( < 1263494542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fingerprints suck < 1263494546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fingerprints aren't in 93 < 1263494550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they have to be in 98s < 1263494553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's bad style to use them. < 1263494561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, all the defined fingerprints are 98 fingerprints. < 1263494564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98s isn't 98. < 1263494568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore they aren't 98s fingerprints. < 1263494570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rest my case. < 1263494583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well actually using crazy fingerprints should be okay in 98s < 1263494590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a suitable value of crazy < 1263494634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing too useful < 1263494641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1263494666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ROMA would be very useful for 98s (instead of almost completely useless in 98) < 1263494689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that fits with the language < 1263494701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless stuff becomes useful, useful stuff becomes useless < 1263494713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be a good summary of the differences between 98 and 98s < 1263494719 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1263494722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIXP gives you math < 1263494728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do FPSP, FPDP < 1263494728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ONFI I can't believe it's not a very poor functional language! < 1263494737 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOL as well, if it's defined as bitwise and not logical < 1263494742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I didn't say it applied to everything < 1263494743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMTH < 1263494748 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you do use a gc < 1263494749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't implement BOOL < 1263494753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which one is IMTH? < 1263494759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: for his lists, yes < 1263494759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer MaTH < 1263494767 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LONG also does < 1263494769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, don't think I implement that one either < 1263494774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICAL as well < 1263494775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and LONG I definitely don't implement < 1263494779 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you make lists out of lambda? < 1263494779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there's actually a certain elegance to that code < 1263494783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICAL I don't remember if I did < 1263494785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what soupdragon said < 1263494793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SETS does, if you like peano arithmetic < 1263494793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons = \x.\y.\f.f x y < 1263494801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can lambdas return lambdas? < 1263494805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so < 1263494807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1263494815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, again, I don't implement that < 1263494819 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I mentioned CPLI < 1263494822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I probably will when I have time < 1263494825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares what you implement? :-P < 1263494825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPLI I implement < 1263494831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could replace all those functions with closures. < 1263494838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, will ccbi support a 98s mode? < 1263494841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that lots of fingerprints make 98s "practically 98" < 1263494847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that technically could break, right? < 1263494859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: *Technically*, yes. < 1263494860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be easy enough to add < 1263494876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's unlikely: this is all working because my lambdas have no need for a trampoline. < 1263494879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cool. Don't remember to remove string mode but keep the SGML spaces! < 1263494890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1263494891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1263494893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't matter < 1263494893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"don't forget" < 1263494893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC isn't about to start doing trampolines for everything. < 1263494900 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaces don't exist < 1263494910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Do I have to do { return x; } or can I just do x? < 1263494915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Do you accept patches?) < 1263494937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in ' they do < 1263494950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm pretty sure both are valid. < 1263494952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also, elsewhere they reflect < 1263494954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and SGMLness doesn't apply there < 1263494966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you didn't get the joke did you? < 1263494971 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this uses some new extention? inline functions? < 1263494972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, because of spaces reflecting it's a bit trickier to add < 1263494974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it ({ or is it just ( {? < 1263494976 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not inline.. < 1263494979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. does the spacing matter < 1263494981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: nested < 1263494981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaces aren't handled as instructions < 1263494982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's old < 1263494984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very old < 1263494998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Spaces reflecting removes wraparound, bw < 1263494999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw* < 1263495000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Where? < 1263495002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also, "void* _" grr. < 1263495003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *_ < 1263495005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are in use. < 1263495006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I just mean in general < 1263495007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh right < 1263495008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gcc < 1263495010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ( < 1263495011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's seems like a major issue < 1263495011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1263495013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1263495014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1263495016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acceptable < 1263495020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1263495028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, your opinion < 1263495028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1263495034 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use ; still, it just means that by default you bounce off edges < 1263495036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no space < 1263495048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah. < 1263495049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then there is no wrap around < 1263495049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what Deewiant said < 1263495053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the point < 1263495055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263495059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah yes < 1263495077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway cfunge implements space as an instruction that skips forward to the next non-space < 1263495080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Oh, right. void *_ instead of void *THROW it is. < 1263495095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(handling t interaction correctly) < 1263495110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean void* __LAMBDA__ < 1263495118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. That. < 1263495120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm implementing a variation on yours that's more awesome and also uses the GNU coding conventions just to make it even more ridiculouser < 1263495125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however this would mess up k handling < 1263495129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU coding conventions? Lispers scared. < 1263495134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This? Haskellers scared! < 1263495150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, THROW? < 1263495162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Throwaway argument. < 1263495167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh right < 1263495187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first argument of a lambda is the closed variable, even if you don't close any variables. < 1263495196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the GNU convention for a type name? < 1263495197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo? < 1263495212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you think any of us here use that convention? < 1263495216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :D < 1263495223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually, I'd make your code C++ < 1263495228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can do (, char *s) < 1263495229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263495232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at info standards < 1263495235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1263495236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Heheheh. < 1263495239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just, you know, do ()void *_, char *s < 1263495242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what does that do in C++ < 1263495246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(void *_, char *s) < 1263495247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in C++, < 1263495254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1263495260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/*int argc*/, int foo, /*char **argv*/ < 1263495262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works < 1263495270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the arguments stay the same and you can uncomment it, but you ignore some < 1263495271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1263495294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do they take up a space with respect to calls to the function? < 1263495307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It appears that it's just type_name_t for the GNU convention. < 1263495318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, will foo(myargc, myfoo, myargv) < 1263495320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still work < 1263495379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that's a poor choice. Isn't *_t semi-reserved for future C standards? < 1263495462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the GNU convention for argument continuations? < 1263495467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's the point (re: C++) < 1263495474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1263495476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not argument continuations < 1263495479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macro continuations < 1263495481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, what column? < 1263495496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, shouldn't you implement foldl/foldr? < 1263495523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: "Undefined". < 1263495527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably. Just haven't. < 1263495533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1263495538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what is that header called? < 1263495556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "lambda.h"? < 1263495561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and: I challenge you to make a portable version of it, using just c99 (+ gc I guess) < 1263495568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible. < 1263495577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure? < 1263495581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lambda definition is impossible. < 1263495584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Uh, I had a question but I've almost forgotten it. < 1263495586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Absolutely. < 1263495586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1263495591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh yeah. < 1263495595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does it say anything about whether to use < 1263495595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no horrible macro tricks < 1263495596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1263495596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( < 1263495597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make the closures portably, though. < 1263495599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stfu for a sec < 1263495600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( < 1263495602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263495603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1263495605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1263495606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1263495606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1263495608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1263495609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :({ < 1263495613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1263495615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}) < 1263495617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Closure is just function + pointer. < 1263495622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good point < 1263495629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just will be more verbose < 1263495657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No mention. < 1263495711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't ({ one symbol there? as in += isn't + = < 1263495720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, I asked pikhq but he said it was two. < 1263495725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1263495785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a compound statement enclosed in parens. < 1263495812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes for ({ < 1263495813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less ugly. < 1263495823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that's the unstated convention. < 1263495932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is foo_t just the typedef of struct foo in the GNU conventions? < 1263495936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're so complicated... < 1263495956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda. < 1263495956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98s instructions (summary): '();=[]abcdefhijklmnoqrstuwxyz{} and A-Z < 1263495960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space is not part of it < 1263495980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I miss any? < 1263495984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, it actually calls function definitions defun. < 1263495987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp on the brain! < 1263495999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1263496012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void * (*func)(); < 1263496013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This should be < 1263496016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *(*func)(...); < 1263496024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1263496040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1263496041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try indent(1) with gnu settings < 1263496051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, how do you save-buffer-as in Emacs? < 1263496053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Good idea. < 1263496062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not sure how much it does inside macros < 1263496077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about M-x save-buffer-as RET ? < 1263496084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming that command is called that) < 1263496089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not exist. < 1263496109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct fib_close_t *fib_close = xgc_malloc(sizeof(fib_close)); < 1263496114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why not simply make struct closure end in < 1263496118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *closed[0]; < 1263496119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1263496126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you don't need malloc at all. < 1263496132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And can cast a struct in. < 1263496147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: C-x C-w < 1263496148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, using C-h k and then the menu in emacs it tells me that runs the command write-file < 1263496151 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263496153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, tempting. < 1263496156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is for save as < 1263496176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(write-file filename &optional confirm) < 1263496187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263496197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bound to C-x C-w < 1263496199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1263496229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have been easy to find out by yourself < 1263496238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(enabling menu bar temporarily as I did) < 1263496290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the menu bar sucks. < 1263496309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just pulled out my dead-tree Emacs manual. < 1263496310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether the alignment should be < 1263496313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FN(..., < 1263496315 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my whole life is just a failure continuation < 1263496317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263496318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1263496320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FN(..., < 1263496321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263496331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Second. < 1263496331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e., is it considered part of the call, or a function definition and thus a control structure?) < 1263496337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But we're extending C! :'( < 1263496339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you have such a manual? < 1263496344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1263496344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1263496345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more like rms' beloved Lisp now! < 1263496351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, old? < 1263496354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, what about the return then < 1263496355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return FN(... < 1263496357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1263496358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Hmm. < 1263496359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return < 1263496360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : FN(... < 1263496361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the latter < 1263496364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Emacs 22. < 1263496385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not that old then. I didn't know you could get such manuals < 1263496386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why < 1263496396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq hates trees. < 1263496413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does it include anything the online docs is missing? < 1263496416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Part of being an FSF member. < 1263496421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no. < 1263496442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, good thing you aren't member of some "save the forests" group as well < 1263496449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1263496449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also huh @ you being an FSF member < 1263496450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already made that joke. < 1263496476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Any opinions on the return indentation? < 1263496480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return LAMBDA(...) < 1263496481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1263496483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return < 1263496484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Not really. < 1263496484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LAMBDA(...) < 1263496487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd read the GNU style guide, but ugh < 1263496488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no? you were that he hates trees. I joked that "good your interest didn't conflict then" < 1263496489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it < 1263496503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's... the same joke. < 1263496512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Just write code and then run indent on it < 1263496513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The GNU style guide isn't even all that detailed. < 1263496514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't it "return LAMBDA ()" < 1263496516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gnu style < 1263496528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they did space between function and parameter list < 1263496539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for _() in gettext < 1263496544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I misremember < 1263496545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a macro. < 1263496548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't do that with macros. < 1263496553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Alright. < 1263496556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh good point < 1263496572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indent iirc doesn't do much reformatting inside macros < 1263496585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GNU style guide also "conveniently" prevents replacing a function with a macro. :P < 1263496599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://sprunge.us/YLOS Are you *sure* you prefer the indented version? < 1263496610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? that's crazy < 1263496627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeargh < 1263496632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeargh. < 1263496635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Using different naming conventions for functions and macros: THAT'S CRAZY < 1263496638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeargh! < 1263496643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which is more GNU-like, is the question, though. < 1263496644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the latter. < 1263496645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, stop copying me < 1263496670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh I thought he meant you weren't allowed to do #define FOO somefunction < 1263496673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Emacs gives me the first when set for GNU. < 1263496703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but we're adding a new control structure here. < 1263496706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's a conflict of sorts. < 1263496720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. s/first/second/ thinko. < 1263496757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, the params should be on the next line < 1263496760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU style, after all. < 1263496766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Erm, right, switch what I said too. < 1263496781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Just go with the second. < 1263496786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels most GNU. < 1263496800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just gonna Go With Indent, because I can't be arsed to think about this stuff. :P < 1263496806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1263496814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which one is indent of those two? < 1263496820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; haven't run indent yet. < 1263496831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw, C-x C-v RET is useful for reloading a file. < 1263496835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, on linux or os x? iirc os x has *bsd indent < 1263496838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is different < 1263496841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, your definition of cons there won't work. < 1263496842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1263496854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, no closing < 1263496860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1263496862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah. < 1263496865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a structure ending in a [0] array < 1263496866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do < 1263496872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo = { ..., {1,2,3} }; < 1263496877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have it automatically allocate the right space on the stack? < 1263496887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why [0]. GCC manual recommends one uses [] from C99 instead < 1263496895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay, fine, []. < 1263496903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm pretty sure you can. < 1263496907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sweet. < 1263496918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, really? that surprises me < 1263496925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will be the WORST C FILE EVER < 1263496951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, not "pretty sure". 100% positive. That's a GNU extension to compound literals. < 1263496964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: GCC does many a surprising thing. < 1263496964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh so it won't work in pure c99? < 1263496973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like I'm programming in the worst functional language ever invented < 1263496973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit I meant < 1263496976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I love it < 1263496981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably not. < 1263496983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Heheheh. < 1263496986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait a second. < 1263496987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm < 1263496990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your thing doesn't have typed return values. < 1263496993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is lame fuck. < 1263496997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm adding them to my thing. < 1263497007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, it's all void *. < 1263497013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1263497019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, that would require that I make a macro that defines a structure. < 1263497021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a very, very hacked together thing. < 1263497022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but then a lambda that returns a+b won't work for both float and int will it? < 1263497022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't very GNU at all. < 1263497036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It won't with (void *), either. < 1263497041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, good point < 1263497065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's still "typed", the compiler just *can't* do any type checking on it. < 1263497080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah like that you mean < 1263497081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1263497092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking "like tgmath.h" < 1263497175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You know, I should probably make this closure_t *. < 1263497186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently, a cons cell is passing around three machine words. Everywhere. < 1263497194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The function pointer and the car and cdr pointers.) < 1263497227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, probably should. < 1263497243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that'd make things inconvenient, so I won't. < 1263497263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. Oh, the malloc'ing you'd have to do. < 1263497283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, with mine, this works: < 1263497295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBDA(NULL, (), printf("foo"); printf("bar\n")) < 1263497301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look ma, no braces! < 1263497312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works with mine, too. < 1263497319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1263497328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it won't return the value the latter printf returns. < 1263497329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1263497330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda(NULL, (void*_, int *x), x && printf("%i ", *x)) < 1263497367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it will. It will then get treated as a void*. < 1263497375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no. < 1263497393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Explain yourself? < 1263497394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { \ < 1263497395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : __VA_ARGS__; \ < 1263497397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : }; \ < 1263497399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No "return", see? < 1263497404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do "return ({ __VA_ARGS__; });". < 1263497418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, body, not __VA_ARGS__. < 1263497419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that prevents you from returning within the lambda. < 1263497419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But whatever. < 1263497428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said it does? < 1263497443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wait, why does a cons cell need a closure? Isn't it *only* car and cdr in general? < 1263497447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return inside of a return borks. < 1263497452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm implementing cons cells as closures. < 1263497456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:) < 1263497457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, aha < 1263497459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only reason I *don't* have the lambda in a return ({ }). < 1263497459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy < 1263497476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's common... in the lambda calculus. < 1263497481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Alright then. < 1263497490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, correction: "crazy for C" < 1263497497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This whole thing is crazy for C. :P < 1263497500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1263497506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is crazy for most lisps too < 1263497536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Also, I'm pretty sure GCC implicitly returns the last value. < 1263497538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... What happens if you use NULL in place of a void *[]? < 1263497546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Value of the last statement. < 1263497559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in statement expressions? < 1263497575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, in general? < 1263497593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In general. < 1263497605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the later would be batshit insane while still not breaking the C standard (since not using return to return from a non-void function is undef < 1263497629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*latter < 1263497636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inded < 1263497638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed* < 1263497643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's so batshit insane about it, other than that you *really* shouldn't rely upon it? < 1263497645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, cold fingers doesn't help spelling < 1263497653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[19:31] Hmm... What happens if you use NULL in place of a void *[]? < 1263497656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess breakage. < 1263497673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, because it breaks if the types are incompatible < 1263497693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why yes, yes it does. < 1263497695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you have something that has the value 4 but you should return a struct on the stack (not even a pointer to a struct) < 1263497711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then clearly you're going to break shit. < 1263497722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the return value is not ignored. < 1263497725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, with no different warning that not using return at all < 1263497733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1263497740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't do that. < 1263497778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my point was that implicit return won't warn for such issues other than the usual about falling of end of non-void func < 1263497814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... Yes. What else would it do? < 1263497816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1263497818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1263497872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm warning you that the following is a dumb idea!: struct foo bar = *((struct foo*)((void *)&4));" < 1263497952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, was that a gcc warning? < 1263497968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No. < 1263497968 0 :nooga!n=nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1263497973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why the quotes < 1263497976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking you "what the hell do you expect, *that*?" < 1263498002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I doubt that &4 would even compile < 1263498016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell does it mean to take the address of an integer literal < 1263498019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. < 1263498031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&({int x=4;}), however. < 1263498041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless it is implicitly cast to a pointer) < 1263498042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, lots of errors. < 1263498048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm what is that? < 1263498063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, taking the address of a statement expression I see < 1263498066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what the hell does that do < 1263498068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure.c:46:6: error: macro "LAMBDA" passed 4 arguments, but takes just 3 < 1263498071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffffffffff < 1263498072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu < 1263498080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1263498083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing as ({int x=4;&x;}) < 1263498087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ({ void * __function (void *_, closure_t list, closure_t closure) { { return ({ closure_t __closure = (list); __closure.function (__closure.closed, ({ void * __function (void **_) { { return nil; } } (closure_t) { __function, ({ }) }; }), ({ void * __function (void **_, void *car, void *cdr) { { return ({ closure_t __closure = (cons); __closure.function (__closure.closed, ({ closure_t __closure = (closure); __closure.function (__closure.closed, car); }), < 1263498088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ({ closure_t __closure = (map); __closure.function (__closure.closed, cdr); })); }); } } (closure_t) { __function, ({ closure }) }; })); }); } } (closure_t) { __function, ({ }) }; }); < 1263498093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, spam! < 1263498093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is going to be fun to debug. < 1263498097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Two lines. < 1263498100 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i've installed plan9 in qemu but i can't start rio ;[ any ideas? < 1263498104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't mean line count < 1263498108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I meant what was in it < 1263498111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: see the plan 9 wiki for common problems, other than that, too vague < 1263498114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't care. < 1263498118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Oh dear. < 1263498120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also try indent on that from the error < 1263498131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But then the line numbers won't match up. < 1263498134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should help split it over lines < 1263498148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well then, split it on several lines some other way before the error < 1263498154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, indent exposed the error. :D < 1263498154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe take gcc -E output < 1263498157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use that directly < 1263498163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my suggestion worked then :P < 1263498164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Sort of. < 1263498170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent appears to... balk... on my macros. < 1263498171 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i've read that wiki ;p < 1263498178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wow < 1263498188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in "holy mother of fuck why is intending so much". < 1263498193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct cons_closed { < 1263498195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *car; < 1263498196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *cdr;}; < 1263498198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct < 1263498199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cons_closed * < 1263498201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263498201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cell = < 1263498202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, see, that bit of nesting ended, indent. < 1263498204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1263498213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets so awesome near the end < 1263498219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally 3 letters of text < 1263498234 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that code? < 1263498240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/AHFC < 1263498243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Behold... the INDENTOFAIL. < 1263498246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it reminds me of how the C99 construct: struct x y = { .foo = 1, .bar = 2 } messes up astyle < 1263498247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: My version of pikhq's closures in C. < 1263498252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has to be split over several lines for it < 1263498257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good god it's so pretty. < 1263498258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes something like: < 1263498261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct x y = { < 1263498263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ); closure_t map = LAMBDA ( < 1263498265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263498265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .foo = 1, < 1263498266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1263498268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , < 1263498269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (void < 1263498271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *_, < 1263498273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .bar = 2} < 1263498276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1263498276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think indent actually has any idea what my code is. < 1263498286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed < 1263498292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahahah. < 1263498296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that indent sucks. < 1263498304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll try AnMaster's beloved astyle :P < 1263498305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try astyle with gnu setting < 1263498306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Emacs' indent routines. They're... Maintained. < 1263498323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, unless you use .foo in struct initialisers it works well < 1263498327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to indent my macros manually :( < 1263498332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emcas tried to make them flat and linear < 1263498333 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean closures in C? < 1263498342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: No, nooga, it is not something that should actually be used. < 1263498343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Just that. < 1263498351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't encourage him :| < 1263498355 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1263498359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link him to the code < 1263498363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO, DON'T < 1263498366 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, please < 1263498368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might end up maintaining what he barfs out < 1263498376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, http://sprunge.us/AHFC < 1263498377 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just curious < 1263498382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1263498384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not working code, though < 1263498391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exactly < 1263498392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my 50-thousand-compile-errors code < 1263498394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1263498403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I tried to help you < 1263498403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1263498410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ONFI < 1263498413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, use logs if you want to find working code < 1263498414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1263498417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION glares at pikhq  < 1263498421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're going to write anything like that, DONT USE C. < 1263498436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this should go to IOCCC < 1263498440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That there code will break if I squint at it wrong. < 1263498443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after some obfuscating < 1263498445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1263498448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not portable < 1263498450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget it < 1263498460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most flagrant violation of the rules, yeah? < 1263498469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, astyle only breaks, instead of breaking horribly. < 1263498473 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, AnMaster is right about that IOCCC < 1263498473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : closure_t cons = < 1263498474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LAMBDA( { }, < 1263498476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (void *_, void *car, void *cdr), < 1263498477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263498481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless that's actually how it should be indented. < 1263498483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it has to be portable C code for IOCCC < 1263498486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it won't work indeed < 1263498491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, and plenty of people break the IOCCC rules. < 1263498495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's even an award for breaking the rules. < 1263498506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1263498517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "portable C" bit is a judging criteria, not a rule. < 1263498520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wait, wasn't the award for "having to change the rules for the next year"? < 1263498525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1263498529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was just one occasion. < 1263498531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263498564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct cons_closed { < 1263498566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *car; < 1263498567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't say astyle was perfect. It just seems to manage fairly well on my code. < 1263498567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *cdr; < 1263498569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : }; < 1263498572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for pointing out my error, astyle. < 1263498575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No thanks for not fixing it. < 1263498585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it can't possibly fix it < 1263498596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't supposed to change the semantics < 1263498601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the { on the same line. < 1263498604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ); closure_t map = LAMBDA ( < 1263498606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { < 1263498607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1263498609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , < 1263498610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (void < 1263498612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *_, < 1263498613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1263498615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : closure_t nil = < 1263498616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LAMBDA( { }, < 1263498617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1263498618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (void *_, closure_t nil_closure, closure_t cons_closure), < 1263498619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1263498623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that thar is a bug. < 1263498627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :({ being at column 0) < 1263498628 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263498629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside a function < 1263498648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. But I don't think it ever says it supports GCC extensions specifically < 1263498696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I really don't blame any tool for failing at this lambda code < 1263498712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Brackets inside of the arguments to a macro is not a GCC extension. < 1263498726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh that I thought he meant ({ < 1263498730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said he did < 1263498734 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.66.124 JOIN :#esoteric < 1263498735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(int argc, char **argc) { {printf("Hello, world!\n");} } < 1263498743 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"char **argc" < 1263498743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ That's valid C90. < 1263498746 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1263498751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Thinko. < 1263498752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not :P < 1263498754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(int argc, char **argv) { {printf("Hello, world!\n");} } < 1263498763 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You forgot the return 0; < 1263498766 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1263498772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1263498778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(int argc, char **argv) { {printf("Hello, world!\n");}; return 0; } < 1263498783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just: < 1263498787 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@meson:~/src/c-closures$ gcc -E closure.c | cat -n | astyle --style=gnu < 1263498789 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to get to work. < 1263498790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(int argc, char **argv) { {return printf("Hello, world!\n");} } < 1263498791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also maybe astyle thinks it is a function call? < 1263498799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just a guess < 1263498848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, btw I think http://sprunge.us/AHFC looks that insane partly due to trying to keep inside 80 columns < 1263498858 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ); closure_t nil = LAMBDA ( < 1263498860 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No excuse for that < 1263498864 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition ended and it didn't realise it < 1263498865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And partly because it never denests. < 1263498866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever. < 1263498870 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it does < 1263498879 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (nil_closure);} < 1263498880 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ); closure_t map = LAMBDA ( < 1263498882 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See?! :P < 1263498897 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that code actually breaks my code, because LAMBDA is a macro. :D < 1263498906 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ð < 1263498911 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::Ð < 1263498919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, then why are you writing that? < 1263498927 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, rio works < 1263498932 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not. < 1263498934 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent is. < 1263498937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Apparently they can't be assed to write a parser. < 1263498946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, you mean it modified the meaning of the source? < 1263498946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And instead, just write a tokeniser. < 1263498962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible it doesn't parse it into an AST < 1263498971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or similar) < 1263498977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It most definitely isn't parsing it. < 1263498977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead just going on simpler rules < 1263498985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm yeah < 1263498992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what about emacs indention < 1263499002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't someone say it did better? < 1263499007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it parse it, or just tokenize it? < 1263499011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tokenise* < 1263499021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs' indentation seems to work just fine on my lambda stuff. < 1263499021 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure.c:47:6: error: macro "LAMBDA" passed 4 arguments, but takes just 3 < 1263499026 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so this is the pre-preprocessed line number. < 1263499065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, I would be surprised if line numbers didn't became messed up with the lambda macro in errors < 1263499070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :become* < 1263499088 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because the preprocessed output does not have that many lines. < 1263499089 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1263499095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1263499105 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1263499106 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return LAMBDA; < 1263499110 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for pinpointing my error, gcc. < 1263499112 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1263499142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Tried using clang? < 1263499146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol :P < 1263499150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it handle these extensions? < 1263499158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No but really, it did pinpoint my error. < 1263499162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1263499169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang supports most of GNU C. < 1263499181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keyword most :P < 1263499222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. Nested functions aren't supported by clang. < 1263499237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet) < 1263499278 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1263499283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, clang has lambda. < 1263499301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mother has lambda. < 1263499311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOUCHE METHINKS < 1263499326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... gcc, I only pass three arguments there. < 1263499328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is (foo, < 1263499330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar) < 1263499331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not one argument in cpp? < 1263499334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With the parens in the argument) < 1263499355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# clang does not support nested functions; this is a complex feature which is infrequently used, so it is unlikely to be implemented anytime soon." < 1263499382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think it is... < 1263499388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My code doesn't work *without* that... < 1263499425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean, with the newline. < 1263499463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/CLDg < 1263499468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth does this pass four arguments to LAMBDA? < 1263499480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. I dunno. < 1263499521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Y'know, when you've got this working, you should make it so that it can also conditionally use blocks instead. < 1263499557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... I dunno how it thinks that's four args. < 1263499582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... { car, cdr } // That might be it. < 1263499606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... why? < 1263499608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1263499637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1263499680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's the only call that does it < 1263499686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1263499691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only call closing over more than one variable < 1263499793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :({ car, cdr }) fixes it. < 1263499947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure.c:57: error: non-static initialization of a flexible array member < 1263499949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Poop. < 1263499950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Clang has the option -fcatch-undefined-behavior. < 1263499994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: :/ < 1263500012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure.c:29: warning: initialization from incompatible pointer type < 1263500013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abuh? < 1263500042 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaaaaaaa! it works1!1! < 1263500043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abuh? < 1263500189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure.c:57: error: incompatible types when returning type ‘closure_t’ but ‘void *’ was expected < 1263500192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1263500192 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1263500260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think you need a pointer. < 1263500272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I could just give up < 1263500310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true. < 1263500422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suggests making LAMBDA malloc < 1263500511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might. < 1263500959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh why did the cold folding thing in kate suddenly turn a kind of brownish orange < 1263500960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main.c:125: error: incompatible type for argument 3 of ‘range’ < 1263500962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFFUUUUU < 1263500991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders when closure* and closure* became incompatible types < 1263501006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what did you change? < 1263501026 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I made lambda malloc. < 1263501042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1263501050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gc_malloc ? < 1263501053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it was called < 1263501056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1263501066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, can you return a closure yet? < 1263501093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I already could. < 1263501094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also Huh. Clang has the option -fcatch-undefined-behavior. <-- sounds nice, does it work well? < 1263501107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how? doesn't trampolines mess it up? < 1263501122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write my nested functions so as to avoid the usage of trampolines. < 1263501123 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It catches some stuff; not a ton < 1263501145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, mhm. Is this in the last release? Or only in svn? < 1263501153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang version 1.0 (https://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/cfe/branches/release_26 ) < 1263501159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says my version from arch repos < 1263501169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks the docs < 1263501176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not sure < 1263501192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in man page or --help at least < 1263501218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :documentation doesn't exactly get update on a regular basis < 1263501233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my manpage either < 1263501236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you could auto generate man page docs from the option parsing code < 1263501237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1263501237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on trunk < 1263501257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have them defined somewhere, include a short help string in there < 1263501272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then generate the options section in the man page from it < 1263501277 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to submit a patch < 1263501315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I believe gcc does this. Also I don't have the time currently at least. < 1263501320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the next few months) < 1263501338 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if we did everything GCC did, we'd use macros instead of a type system < 1263501360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, is it in --help for you? < 1263501372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1263501434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i = i++ - ++i; <-- that is undef iirc? < 1263501440 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1263501445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, does it catch it? < 1263501458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so then my clang silently ignores that flag < 1263501512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it does not, but that's not the purpose of the flag < 1263501518 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flag adds runtime checks < 1263501521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263501533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC has it too < 1263501534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, clang-cc doesn't accept it < 1263501539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and clang ignores it silently < 1263501563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, no "-fcatch-undefined-behavior" in my man gcc < 1263501569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what did you mean < 1263501588 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it may be a 4.5 thing < 1263501607 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I remember the revision log note said it came from GCC < 1263501608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, last I tried 4.5 it produced a broken executable at -O0 for cfunge iirc. < 1263501615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a few months ago < 1263501628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also iirc I found a matching bug report about it < 1263501668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was after lto branch had been merged, I know that, since it was the reason I tried out 4.5) < 1263501759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it possible to use both web and irc at the same time on iphone? I guess it is, since it is such an advanced phone. < 1263501787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1263501795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what? < 1263501798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's broken < 1263501804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only run one application at once < 1263501816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, actually. < 1263501822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most IRC apps include their own browser. :P < 1263501823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, broken, can't most other high end smart phones do it? < 1263501827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, -_- < 1263501827 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can pop out for some functions, but if you start a new application, it closes the old one < 1263501829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, IRC is not an intended use of the iPhone. < 1263501832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an edge case. < 1263501835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just going to mention the possibility of a client with a browser < 1263501838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even my not-so-high-end phone can multitask < 1263501848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all usecases don't require multitasking apps and it makes things simpler. Yes, it's a sore need < 1263501852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know that this has been the subject of much costernation at work (we have an iPhone app) < 1263501854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it rarely comes up in practice i find < 1263501864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my old nokia can't, but well, it isn't a smartphone. < 1263501938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, won't you have 20 different browser UIs that all look differently and use different bookmarks? < 1263501958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a lot of coding effort < 1263501971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and code duplication, and buggy web browsers < 1263501987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about IM though < 1263501993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be too rare on iphone < 1263502017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IM and IRC are the only cases < 1263502020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're pretty much identical < 1263502021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So IM < 1263502023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the only case < 1263502030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they just include a browser; a non-optimal, but functional, hack. < 1263502033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from that... basically never used. < 1263502038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, they all reuse Safari's core. < 1263502042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that helps < 1263502042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which basically does everything but the URL bar for them. < 1263502062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly you don't get URL completion or bookmarks, but... it's mostly just for tapping links that people say. < 1263502108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wanted multi tasking more than once on my phone < 1263502122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like checking the schedule while editing an sms < 1263502129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without having to store it as a draft < 1263502145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just flip over to the calendar would be nice < 1263502191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that is another use case, see? < 1263502257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds an entry on his mental list of "reasons to not buy an iphone" < 1263502364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody cares < 1263502395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1263502434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263502675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i ever tell you guys about that time i got into an argument with some numbskull who insisted that it's impossible to detect any sort of non-termination in a computer program? < 1263502792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: So, you've solved the halting problem? < 1263502794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing. < 1263502806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :| < 1263502815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a generate detector of non-termination < 1263502830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but something that can, for at least one non-terminating program, tell that its not terminating < 1263502836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1263502859 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur can you tell me about it < 1263502862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., say, the javascript non-terminating-program-detector: program == "while (true) {}" < 1263502873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, something that can say "this terminates", "this doesn't terminate", or "fuck if I know". < 1263502881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shazam, it detects precisely one non-terminating program < 1263502893 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1263502893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's pretty trivial to write. Bit more difficult to make one that's even vaguely useful, but hey. < 1263502894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was arguing with me that its impossible to detect ANY non-terminating programs < 1263502905 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur what about the guy what was he saying < 1263502915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^ < 1263502936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said that to detect a specific kind of non-termination was to solve the halting problem < 1263502950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didnt relize that the halting problem was about detecting arbitrary non-termination < 1263502992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that since humans could detect some kinds of non-termination, we therefore are super-turing-complete < 1263503031 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you think he didn't undertand halting problem < 1263503049 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you manage to break through it < 1263503062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :( < 1263503075 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you try < 1263503106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just tried to explain to him that the halting problems is the problem of deciding, for all programs, whether or not they halt < 1263503128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that being able to tell if _one particular program_ halts is not a solution to the halting problem < 1263503135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking about dependent types, i think < 1263503151 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see this one: program == "while (true) {}" < 1263503155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was before i realized i was talking about dependent types < 1263503179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was talking about the idea of a program error finder that would be able to tell you, prior to execution, that your program would have certain kinds of errors < 1263503183 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he was thinking about extensionally equivalent to this (which would be solving halting problem), but you were meaning intensional (which would not solve halting problem) < 1263503185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he was like LOL HALTING PROBLEM DUMMY < 1263503219 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how does dependent types relate? < 1263503248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would involve partially tracing through evaluation paths < 1263503264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find places where they could lead to an error < 1263503286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd want to basically avoid circular traces, and he thought that doing this would require that you solve the halting problem < 1263503322 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting way too complex for me to follow < 1263503337 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1263503337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks to me like you'd only solve the halting problem for a certain finite-state machine. Which is not merely possible, but rather easy. < 1263503353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except that the state might be hard to store. :P < 1263503355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it was a really stupid discussion < 1263503358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was an idiot. < 1263503388 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure < 1263503413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1263503416 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1263503531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tgrep, btw. < 1263503537 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1263503544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1263503546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont like tgrep? < 1263503576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1263503582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :| < 1263503590 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if dependent types came into it he was probably talking about something more refined < 1263503598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, he wasnt. < 1263503612 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was i arguing with you? i dont think i was. so stop trying to defend this person. :| < 1263503612 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems weird that he would say "LOL HALTING PROBLEM DUMMY" because that suggests he already knew the answer < 1263503652 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I am defending them < 1263503657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really are < 1263503663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE A LITTLE EICHMANN < 1263503679 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol.,.,. < 1263503683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1263503689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tgrep! < 1263503708 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>< < 1263503716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1263503721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tgrep is cool! < 1263503730 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I'm just interested in these discussions < 1263503762 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, when someone is wrong but they know they are right < 1263503991 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very interesting phenomena to me, when its genuine < 1263504011 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phenomenon < 1263504043 0 :Guest32065!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cerise < 1263504144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1263504145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TGREP! :D < 1263504153 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1263504177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stanford.edu/dept/linguistics/corpora/material/tgrep1-intro.pdf < 1263504609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tried converting that lambda example to use GMP. < 1263504623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I then found out that GMP doesn't much care for garbage collection. < 1263504639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can force it to, but it just seems wrong... < 1263504897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and i was talking about the idea of a program error finder that would be able to tell you, prior to execution, that your program would have certain kinds of errors <-- ITYM static analysis? < 1263504910 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1263504916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maybe < 1263504918 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he meant static analysis < 1263504926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, then what if not that? < 1263504951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it depends on how you define static analysis < 1263504992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to work out types in a dynamically typed language and then finding contradiction? The erlang static analyzer "dialyzer" does that. < 1263505008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, would you included that in your definition of static analysis? < 1263505038 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't mean that < 1263505047 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually what he said IS static analysis < 1263505087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, you don't consider what I described as static analysis? < 1263505105 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not worried about whether or not it's static analysis < 1263505119 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is it doesn't make sense to say ITYM like that < 1263505144 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it wasn't like he said "fledermaus" and meant "baseball bat" < 1263505210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, what is a "fledermaus"? It sounds like the Swedish word "fladdermus" which is en:bat < 1263505214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the animal < 1263505228 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means bat :p < 1263505240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so considering things, I'm guessing German or similar language < 1263505247 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1263505299 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1263505360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tgrep <-- what is tgrep? A variant of grep(1) I guess. but can't find it in the package repo < 1263505364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree grep < 1263505387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : like, when someone is wrong but they know they are right <-- we usually call it "being misinformed" < 1263505396 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1263505400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, interesting < 1263505411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, how does it work and on what file format < 1263505429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, btw it isn't in ubuntu either < 1263505434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, do you have a link? < 1263505435 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not being misinformed < 1263505454 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263505471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, oh? so you claim that won't be the symptoms of being misinformed? < 1263505489 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's related but more specific and not the same thing < 1263505508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, what is it then. (max three irc lines) < 1263505518 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuuuuuuuuuh < 1263505534 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I already wrote a description < 1263505545 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you tried to summarize it and lost some of the detail < 1263505547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, yes, but what is it called < 1263505554 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan9 is awesome but bizzare < 1263505557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what else than being misinformed can it be < 1263505561 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263505570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, list one (1) other subset < 1263505578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is disjoint < 1263505591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from being misinformed < 1263505686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well, ignore it then < 1263505692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, ^ < 1263505694 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore what? < 1263505723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, what else than being misinformed can it be. I asked for you to list one other thing it can be < 1263505757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't overlap with being misinformed < 1263505758 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can call this misinformed like you can call a breezy meadow of poppies 'pretty' but you lose information when you do this < 1263505781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, that isn't an answer < 1263505806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, it is a nonsensical answer < 1263505821 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1263505892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1263505912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, how hard can it be to list a case or example of that thing you described that isn't "being misinformed" < 1263506112 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't explain this < 1263506151 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster if you had a terrible nightmare about ghouls and ghosts and everyone was a zombie except you in the whole world and there is this whole long story that means so much to you < 1263506160 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, then you tell your mom and she goes "oh you had a nightmare" < 1263506168 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 'nightmare' doesn't explain it because it was so much more < 1263506173 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what I mean ? < 1263506176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, no < 1263506183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nightmare is a good summary of it < 1263506189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm grown up < 1263506193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some 7 year old < 1263506196 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said no way too fast < 1263506203 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are just responding to me without thinking < 1263506205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, as in, I never experienced that < 1263506208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I was considering it < 1263506217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a hypothetical situation you didn't have to live through it < 1263506228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I had nightmares < 1263506240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that they can be nasty especially when you are young < 1263506255 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't about nightmares < 1263506257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nightmare still explains the issue. You might need to add a modifier like "really bad" < 1263506260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in front < 1263506265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apart from that, it is a good summary < 1263506366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, and providing a counter example where the summary in question doesn't fit is all that you need to convince me < 1263506413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1263506518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, besides (considering this in a set theory way), you originally said it was a disjoint phenomenon " it's related but more specific and not the same thing" then later you seemed to indicate it was a proper subset " then you tried to summarize it and lost some of the detail" < 1263506551 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not set theory < 1263506590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, true. but considering (possibly overlapping) classes of things using set theory works in my experience < 1263506632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it a useful "tool" in understanding how things are related. < 1263506639 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1263506744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I managed to keep a high average in calculus! < 1263506824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, the joke I thought of that line would be too long winding and far fetched < 1263506834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not going to mention it < 1263506839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/mention/say/ < 1263506851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, instead I wonder if you refer to marks in some course < 1263506861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1263506890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hey you are supposed to ask what the joke was < 1263506899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not gonna! < 1263506906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'll tell it anyway < 1263506909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the idea < 1263506930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about it being the average value in some specific problem in a calculus assignment < 1263506957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, average of a function in a given interval or whatever. < 1263506967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ^ < 1263506978 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by calculus < 1263506988 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppri < 1263506998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: high school calculus < 1263507003 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1263507014 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can you integrate < 1263507059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, officially I haven't gotten there yet < 1263507066 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1263507078 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do epsilon-delta proofs? < 1263507085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, rotational bodies? < 1263507093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that being quite fun < 1263507101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from back in the equiv of high school < 1263507103 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1263507107 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I understand the epsilon-delta definition, but I haven't tried to apply it < 1263507111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun as in "a hell of a task" < 1263507115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1263507145 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro so basically differentiating expressions made from +,-,*,/,x,numbers,various primitive functions and composition?? < 1263507161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: yeah, that's about as far as I've actually gotten < 1263507164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be high school level < 1263507169 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I could program a computer to do that < 1263507178 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that I can do better than this; I'm just talking about where I am in the course) < 1263507179 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so could you I'm sure < 1263507181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the epsilon-delta stuff is more like university level isn't it? < 1263507185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, ^ < 1263507193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in Sweden it is < 1263507193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1263507207 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yeah you are right I guess so < 1263507209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, where you from UK or US? < 1263507216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: .ca < 1263507218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263507277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most mathematics education is like "here is how to do this thing... in case you absolutely need to apply this and there is no computer ANYWHERE" < 1263507282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is... pointless < 1263507282 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this course goes about as far as integration by parts, plus an optional unit on differentiation and integration of exponential/logarithmic functions < 1263507289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not pointless < 1263507301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to know what the computer does < 1263507308 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why so many people are bad programmers < 1263507334 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird I'm really curious about the possibility of a mathematics course that assumed you were a skilled programmer < 1263507336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the computer does is not what you are taught to do mentally < 1263507347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is because the algorithms you use mentally are only useful for trivial examples and are also shit < 1263507352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore they are useless < 1263507357 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but you need to understand how to get from point a to b < 1263507360 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, like what if you could just not learn any of the crap like differentation and multiplication -- program it into the computer and see what's left < 1263507370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: an asinine phrase without an associated argument, signifying nothing. < 1263507372 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know? the real creative stuff that matters - what you can't put into code < 1263507386 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe people are scared because they might find out there's nothing left < 1263507395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I assume you didn't mean multiplication as a separate thing there :P < 1263507401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"2*2? Um, let me get my iPhone." < 1263507409 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no that's exactly what I mean < 1263507415 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a person should know how to do basic math < 1263507419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they never have to use it < 1263507422 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just hypotheticall, a context where there's no reason you should bother working out 2*2 yourself < 1263507424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm shit at mental arithmetic, I'm just really slow at it < 1263507434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I refuse to spend hours listening to a times table < 1263507436 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you're fast with 2*2 < 1263507439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :P < 1263507444 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, you pass < 1263507465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how if you ever question "why do i need to be able to multiply such large numbers in my head" they say something like "hurr finances" < 1263507474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because calculators will be BANNED by the time you grow up, sonny boy < 1263507477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BANNED < 1263507490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the point of finances if not as a fun mental arithmetic exercise < 1263507491 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplying large numbers in your head seems unnecessary < 1263507619 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellooo < 1263507671 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but knowing how to differentiate elemental functions is important < 1263507680 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1263507704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't think so. < 1263507712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: then you are wrong < 1263507754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice to know you've abandoned attempting to reappropriate asinine phrases as arguments; I'd prefer it were replaced with arguments, though, instead of the lack of them. < 1263507772 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how can you argue against "THOU HAST WRONG" < 1263507790 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: fun fact: this is exactly what you do in arguments < 1263507800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, you don't learn things you don't understand < 1263507803 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you should think about my idea :( < 1263507820 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is vital that you understand the basics of something before moving on to the advanced stuff < 1263507826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else it doesn't stick < 1263507851 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I want to know what it would be like if computers were sort fo like a fundamental part of peoples unconcious thinking -- instead of programming your brain to do these menial tasks we could program an on board computer, and just focus on the real mathematics .. do you know what I mean here? < 1263507937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains are computers < 1263507950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You can learn how differentiation works by programming the algorithm, and stepping through it. < 1263507958 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird -_- < 1263507969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: i'm just trolling you. < 1263508078 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on < 1263508081 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a cool idea < 1263508100 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you read ekhads geometry book? < 1263508105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1263508117 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah I forgot you can't read, sorry < 1263508130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1263508136 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html < 1263508155 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird im just kidding because you still haven't read metamorphosis :P < 1263508160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1263508186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool it's an acronym < 1263508194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PGAETBSBEXIVC2050BDZ < 1263508213 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um I don't see what it is for? < 1263508225 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plane Geometry An Elementry ..? < 1263508233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep! < 1263508236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the big letters in the title < 1263508238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's elementary. < 1263508251 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it :( < 1263508260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the letters are big, see < 1263508264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when I expand an acronym like < 1263508266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POOP = < 1263508272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Posh OOgs Pallating < 1263508273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1263508275 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not good at being cool < 1263508275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hilarious < 1263508276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laugh, btich < 1263508278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bitch < 1263508282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was I trying to be cool < 1263508285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually aim for incoherent < 1263508293 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll find someone else to talk to < 1263508300 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably not actually) < 1263508544 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird that sucked actually < 1263508560 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you do that < 1263508586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wanders off to do a unit on trig functions < 1263508638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: stop whining < 1263508665 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that doesn't answer my question < 1263508687 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you are making me feel like you are just some kind fo haskell fanboy < 1263508713 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: welcome to the world of ehird < 1263508721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: what are you even talking about, what did I do < 1263508726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did I do that's so bad? < 1263508744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I don't know < 1263508747 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird I was trying to talk about something I actually care about and you are just trolling me, probably because I don't often say serious things < 1263508793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: the problem with talking to you is that everything has to be serious if you care about something < 1263508802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random side jokes are equated to being a dick < 1263508820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get all upset about trolling and then turn around later and do it yourself < 1263508868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it's difficult to tell if stuff like [15:25:25] coppro: You can learn how differentiation works by programming the algorithm, and stepping through it. is sarcastic or not on the Internet < 1263508869 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird fuck off all you did was take the piss out of me for 100 lines of chat < 1263508870 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens < 1263508894 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's not "everything has to be serious for queen soupdragon" that's just being an ass < 1263508929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: i did not take the piss out of you for 100 lines < 1263508932 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I give up you're obviously just going to continue trolling to save face < 1263508935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, scratch that < 1263508940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to pick up a marksheet < 1263508943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what's wrong with you but you're massively overreacting to things I didn't do < 1263508943 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do more math < 1263508944 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way you are going to suddenly start acting okay after this < 1263508948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and talking is not going to help anything < 1263508954 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cool it's an acronym < 1263508955 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PGAETBSBEXIVC2050BDZ < 1263508956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure you're either a total troll or mentally unstable < 1263508959 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : brains are computers < 1263508968 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incase you didn't realize what you were saying < 1263508981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 random lines I joked about when seeing the page, and 1 that I immediately said I was kidding after. < 1263508986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that equate to 100 lines of cold-blooded trolling? < 1263509007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first 2 were definitely a sarcasm < 1263509012 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then < 1263509018 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take back what I said about 200 lines < 1263509117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said 100 lines. < 1263509333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : most mathematics education is like "here is how to do this thing... in case you absolutely need to apply this and there is no computer ANYWHERE" <-- it might happen, post-catastrophe. Plus someone has to know how to implement it all < 1263509362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said don't teach them the algorithm < 1263509372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, that's irrelevant to initial education < 1263509385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think a typical schoolkid could survive a post-apocalyptic world? < 1263509387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pff < 1263509491 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anyone can survive apocalyptic < 1263509502 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even a typical schoolkid < 1263509663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, good point < 1263509697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shakes a fist at OSCAR < 1263509713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm applying existential quantification, flexible contexts, multiple-parameter type classes, flexible instances and functional dependencies to the problem of generating HTML. < 1263509715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also, what about when you need to check that you didn't get short changed while in a ship < 1263509715 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's OSCAR? < 1263509717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shop* < 1263509718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1263509722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a true Haskell programmer. < 1263509731 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I can see that you are a haskell programmer < 1263509734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yep, that involves differentiation...? < 1263509734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like a reasonable example of having to know basic arithmetic < 1263509736 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical haskell programmer < 1263509743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh I thought you said "initial" < 1263509748 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry that was mean < 1263509749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Hey, it's verified that the document is valid at compile-time. < 1263509753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's valuable. :P < 1263509753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning, up to 10 years old or such < 1263509763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say initial < 1263509766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning like pre-university < 1263509769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1263509777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought more like primary or whatever you call it < 1263509831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to make a preprocessor to generate this code < 1263509833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is rather gnarly < 1263509843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about having to figure out how fast the water level will raise in the bath if the tap is broken. So you know how much time you have to get hold of a plumber < 1263509845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I only have three tags implemented :P < 1263509851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a differential eqation < 1263509853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equation* < 1263509857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lol < 1263509874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, assume also that electricity failed or such < 1263509960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though by the time you figured it out you could instead have gone down and turned off the main where the pipes goes into the house...) < 1263509985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1263509986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what do you call that thing? < 1263509998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Boiler? < 1263509999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same word as "tap" in Swedish < 1263510002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1263510011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really read your sentence. < 1263510013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I meant the cut off of cold water < 1263510021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tap", apparently. < 1263510028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a thing to cut it off where the water pipes goes into the house yeah < 1263510044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm okay < 1263510046 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1263510048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, found it with google? < 1263510052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1263510054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google translate < 1263510055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahaha it works < 1263510057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent < 1263510079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well it is "kran" for both in Swedish < 1263510099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't mean both meanings have the same word in English < 1263510108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently cock is one of the meanings of kran in Swedish < 1263510114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1263510115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type-safe HTML generation with existential quantification, flexible contexts, multiple-parameter type classes, flexible instances, functional dependencies and undecidable instances. It works! < 1263510121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1263510121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, kran is also slang for nose I know < 1263510122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1. CRANE < 1263510124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2. TAP < 1263510125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3. FAUCET < 1263510127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4. COCK < 1263510128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5. STOPCOCK < 1263510130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6. BIBCOCK < 1263510131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7. CRAB < 1263510133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1263510135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that from < 1263510136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263510144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google translate < 1263510150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lists alternatives? < 1263510155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know that < 1263510342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, apperently "BIBCOCK" and "STOPCOCK" are plumbing related < 1263510413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1263510415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "cock" can also be a sort of valve < 1263510416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1263510422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought bibcock was like a bib, but you put it on your penis. < 1263510425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from being a bird I mean < 1263510431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To keep your penis clean, I guess. < 1263510442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OBVIOUS ISN'T IT < 1263510443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, bib being short for bibliography? < 1263510450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Short for bib :P < 1263510455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever bib is < 1263510508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Ballcock, a mechanism for filling water tanks" <-- the innuendo potential is extreme < 1263510549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was just putting my ballcock in the water tank, but it broke, so I took it out." < 1263510555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Then I put it in again. And in, and out, in, out, in, out." < 1263510561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why are you looking at me funny?" < 1263510567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is the thing that is used in toilets I think < 1263510572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make them stop when it is filled up < 1263510595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballcock < 1263510645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the talk page mentions it < 1263510717 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1263510738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do you usually log read? I forgot < 1263510739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also hi < 1263510776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually search for my nick in the logs. i only log read if it's fairly short (which it isn't today) < 1263510780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckityfuckityfuck, I think my whole architecture is broken < 1263510780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hi < 1263510813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for what? < 1263510820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, OS? Editor? Something else? < 1263510822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find no instances of my nick between my leaving and joining today, fwiw < 1263510841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you know how to fix problems that involve a complex intertwining of existential quantification, flexible contexts, multiple-parameter type classes, flexible instances, functional dependencies, undecidable instances and impredicative types? < 1263510849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually, I'm just trying to generate HTML. < 1263510856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh < 1263510859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words to the effect of "no" < 1263510862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the HASKELL way! < 1263510865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No more crazy C lambda? < 1263510865 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan9 plan9 plan9 plan9 plan9 < 1263510877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: c lambda is like a pinch, this is like being bludgeoned < 1263510879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1263510882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1263510900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end goal is something that'll let you use HTML literals in haskell source code and it'll be totally type-safe < 1263510902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1263510907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how many ballcocks are there in your house/apartment? < 1263510916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1263510916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a ballcock < 1263510926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you think? < 1263510935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo path = do (w,h) <- imageInfo path; return < 1263510953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and it'll be foo :: FilePath -> Element IMG < 1263510955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I would assume at least one < 1263510959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _sounds_ dirty, but that could be misleading. and even if it _is_ dirty i wouldn't know precisely what it means < 1263510959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly more < 1263510961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "w" and "h" there actually have to be integers < 1263510965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd desugar to something like < 1263510967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "Ballcock, a mechanism for filling water tanks" < 1263510972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, used in toilets < 1263510979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed... < 1263510981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, gravity operated ones < 1263510989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return (img ! src path ! width w ! height h) < 1263511009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if any of the html or compositions of html in your entire program resulted in any invalidity it'd go beep and be sad. < 1263511038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it sounds like the perfect innuendo < 1263511118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my apartment has 1 toilet. perhaps the hot water tanks? there are two. < 1263511120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what kind of design any of them use < 1263511121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i assume <= 3 < 1263511153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not sure about them either < 1263511158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also tanks? < 1263511168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there usually just one? < 1263511204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw me making an actual dirty remark like that is almost zero < 1263511206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There exists more than one toilet. < 1263511216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in the world? yes certainly < 1263511243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, otherwise there would be infinite problems with a long queue < 1263511258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: btw i did see some functional language for typesafe xml or whatever somewhere < 1263511259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there were only one water tank, one would say "ballcock, a mechanism for filling the water tank". < 1263511264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah cduce < 1263511270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the annoying thing is i've *done* this in haskell before < 1263511273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there exists more than one, one says "ballcock, a mechanism for filling water tanks". < 1263511279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I quoted that from wikipedia < 1263511293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if you mean oerjan, "Ballcock, a mechanism for filling water tanks" < 1263511304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and you were wondering why "water tanks" rather than "water tank". < 1263511340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I should stop IRCing while getting up every few seconds. < 1263511353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be more than one such language < 1263511358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh? < 1263511376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should definitely stop IRCing while getting up every few seconds. < 1263511383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it was on the disambig page for "cock" < 1263511394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1263511395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i am not sure why there are two tanks. _possibly_ one is for the landlady, i don't know if she has any tank elsewhere < 1263511450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway cock has so many meanings that there are lots of possible ways to use it for innuendo < 1263511467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone has a non-digital wrist watch in here? < 1263511491 0 :augur!n=augur@static-68-239-85-217.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263511492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION raises hand < 1263511496 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faen < 1263511515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "may contain cocks" < 1263511517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: fy, ikke bann i kanalen < 1263511520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case < 1263511538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" * A part of a clock or watch used to support an outrigger bearing for a gear or lever < 1263511538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Balance cock, supports the balance wheel in a watch" < 1263511552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket_clock applies here < 1263511560 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1263511569 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry < 1263511594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, fan också. får man inte säga en djävla svordom? < 1263511633 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea? < 1263511640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, ? < 1263511657 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i had the same question < 1263511671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bracket clocks apparently have/had "fly cocks") < 1263511717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nei for pokker < 1263511759 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :............ < 1263511777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, pokker? < 1263511784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw is it optional whether or not to spell djävla with a d? < 1263511787 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1263511797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I may have typoed it < 1263511802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be jävla < 1263511809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't normally write it < 1263511812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1263511820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pokker is a swear word, of course < 1263511832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is "djävulen" though < 1263511833 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is javla something like 'damn' ? < 1263511844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mostly, "for pokker" is a swear phrase < 1263511851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, "djävulen" = "the devil" < 1263511872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "poker"? < 1263511879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for pokker means something like dammit i think < 1263511881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there is nothing like it in Swedish < 1263511893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woohoo, I've already done two parts of this assignment already < 1263511899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, dammit being more mild? < 1263511900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1263511912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually done them, but two sections are stuff I already took < 1263511913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's related to pox, the disease < 1263511918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263511939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kopper in norwegian but may have been pokker historically?) < 1263511945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, don't think there is anything similar in Swedish < 1263511957 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: for what it's worth to you, I do think that putting calculus and the other high-level math course side-by-side so that there's lots of duplication between them is dumb < 1263511959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :koppor in Swedish iirc < 1263511980 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about errr.... fjandin ? < 1263511986 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there such word? < 1263511994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, negatory for Swedish < 1263512004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm not sure if my watch contains a cock, i expect it contains only minimal mechanical parts < 1263512058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, the closest word I can think of is "fjantig" which isn't a swear word at all, rather it means ~silly (not exactly though) < 1263512070 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1263512073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, battery driven? These modern people < 1263512099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, when I was young it was uphill both ways along the pendulum! < 1263512132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a snowstorm! < 1263512152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See also: < 1263512152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Cock (surname) < 1263512152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Cocks (surname) < 1263512159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1263512168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cockburn especially. < 1263512202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? really? < 1263512205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a name? < 1263512211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pronounced "cohburn". < 1263512242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1263512328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how is "cox" pronounced < 1263512328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: fjandin looks similar to fienden (the enemy), could it be an old norse word? < 1263512342 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, let me see < 1263512353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cocks. < 1263512364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it also looks similar to fanden/faen, meaning the devil, quite possibly they all have that as origin... < 1263512366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES! IT WORKS! < 1263512381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, poor Alen Cox... < 1263512384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> :t decompose (html head_ body) < 1263512385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decompose (html head_ body) < 1263512387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (String, [Attribute HTML], [Element]) < 1263512388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Alan < 1263512390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alan* < 1263512390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Russ Cox < 1263512392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah < 1263512404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, who? < 1263512412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9 dude. < 1263512419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrote plan9port, also had a large part in Go. < 1263512422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1263512425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swtch.com < 1263512436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wp article on him < 1263512480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1263512481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh "cocktail" that would have high innuendo potential if it wasn't such a well known word < 1263512485 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: also old norse ~= icelandic, so could be that too < 1263512492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he also wrote the popular article http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html < 1263512501 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7uw5bXzE7I#t=0m43s < 1263512511 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually you're right < 1263512518 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was icelandic < 1263512524 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1263512565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hver_fjandinn < 1263512569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1263512576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 20 seconds for that regex in perl? < 1263512583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the heck did he write it... < 1263512628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the same as norwegian "hva faen", i take < 1263512654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: RTFA < 1263512657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1263512676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fjandi < 1263512696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the disadvantage of NFAs is that you can't do backreferences in the regexp < 1263512699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (foo)...\1... < 1263512706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, can it be expanded with all the features of PCRE and such though? I'll bookmark it for tomorrow. going to sleep now < 1263512709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but by the time you use one of those... whip out a parser, dude < 1263512711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1263512723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah, that's a minor issue. < 1263512726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1263512731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most uses of regexps are much simpler < 1263512737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the other uses are abuses < 1263512751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I often use lookahead and lookbehind at least < 1263512761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both negative and positive < 1263512810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and back references is common too < 1263512828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, using the fastest one possible would be nice < 1263512973 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1263513344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)