←2010-01-15 2010-01-16 2010-01-17→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:06 <oerjan> hm wait
00:00:17 <ehird> you know if i experimented with fungoids in the 90s i'd be pretty scared of people coming up to me and blabbing about them
00:00:19 <anmaster_t> ehird, log reader?
00:00:28 <ehird> anmaster_t: I'm gonna guess "no".
00:00:49 <anmaster_t> ehird, he know I worked on befunge109 though
00:01:02 <oerjan> random madmen on the street
00:02:27 <anmaster_t> fizzie, that panorama is fitting btw. Wave university and everything
00:02:27 <anmaster_t> it is really very wavy to get a straight horizon
00:03:06 <oerjan> wtf i'm lagged, the logs show cpressey leaving before my greeting...
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00:05:38 <oerjan> whatsoup, dragon
00:07:02 <ehird> [23:58] <oerjan> cpressey: long time no see
00:07:04 <ehird> [23:58] <anmaster_t> oh that is c pressey there. Didn't notice at first
00:07:05 <ehird> [23:58] <anmaster_t> hi
00:07:07 <ehird> [23:58] <oerjan> ehird, cynical since 1991
00:07:08 <ehird> [23:58] <cpressey> 'Night, folks.
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00:07:11 <ehird> not that lagged for me
00:07:17 <anmaster_t> ehird, same here
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00:09:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll upload example stitch tomorrow hopefully. really need to sleep now, test tomorrow afternoon (sucks to have that on a Saturday)
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00:10:10 <oerjan> lag continuum
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00:11:57 <soupdragon> lag o morph
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00:23:00 <oerjan> soupdragon: you mean jumpy and could be beaten by a tortoise?
00:23:12 <soupdragon> roughly
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00:37:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: Here's one preliminary stitch of the CS building: http://zem.fi/~fis/cs.jpg -- it's a bit seamy, and I doubt anything can be done to the railing immediately in front, since it's sort of important that what's behind it lines up properly.
00:41:47 <ehird> fizzie: see, it should look curved like that in real life
00:41:47 <ehird> don't you agree that it would be prettier?
00:41:47 <ehird> the curved metal, especially
00:44:05 <oerjan> finland is too cold for metal to curve
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00:48:29 <ehird> Some sort of pipeline language:
00:48:32 <ehird> sort: divide | sort | splice pivot | cat
00:48:33 <ehird> pivot: [length/2]
00:48:35 <ehird> divide: split (<= pivot)
00:49:12 <ehird> (The intention is that you can parallelise it; so, since divide splits one list into two, "sort" would be run on them in parallel, then when they're both done, splice would insert pivot in-between them, and cat would concatenate all of them.)
00:49:23 <ehird> [] being array access, not creation.
00:49:31 <ehird> (That's quicksort.)
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05:07:53 <augur> ehird, are you here
05:08:05 <ehird> no
05:08:37 <augur> lemme ask you
05:08:48 <augur> since i think you'd be knowledgable on this
05:11:44 <augur> what is it called when you take functions in the object language and turn them into type constraints
05:13:09 <augur> in the simple case its just having a typed programming language, right
05:13:32 <augur> instead of doing lots of return nil unless someArg.is_a? Numeric
05:13:34 <augur> or whatever
05:13:48 <augur> you just type your function Numeric -> YaddaYadda
05:14:51 <augur> and for slightly more complex stuff, instead of 'return nil unless someArg.square > 5' you type your function some silly type and then its just dependent types, right
05:15:32 <augur> but would it still be dependent types if you turned _all_ of your predicates into types like that?
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05:16:07 <augur> e.g. instead of 'return nil unless x < y' you type your function in such a way that its only defined on pairs of numbers <x,y> such that x < y
05:16:18 <augur> is that still just dependent typing? or is that slightly more complex?
05:20:08 <coppro> augur: unfortunately, the term 'dependent type' is overloaded
05:20:12 <augur> :P
05:21:14 * coppro tries to remember the name of that language ehird talked about
05:22:53 <coppro> some languages blur the distinction between types and values as well
05:22:54 <augur> epilog? twelf? agda?
05:22:59 <coppro> agda was the one
05:23:04 <augur> epogram, rather.
05:23:06 <augur> .. epigram. :|
05:23:16 <coppro> even though they are conceptually different, their use gets blended together
05:23:33 <augur> agda is less a language and more a program, but ok
05:24:13 <augur> i mean, its kind of both i guess. its a special purpose language designed for one particular purpose
05:25:13 <coppro> yeah
05:25:34 <coppro> but dependent type in agda are completely different from dependent types in C++
05:27:50 <augur> right
05:27:55 <augur> i dont even know what C++ dependent types are
05:28:44 <coppro> they're types that are unknown because they require knowledge of a template paramter to determine
05:28:51 <coppro> for instance, 'typename T::iterator'
05:29:01 <coppro> or the type of 't.begin()', if t is of some parameter type
05:29:17 <coppro> they're a far more boring concept
05:30:28 <augur> i dont need to know what they are ;)
05:31:11 <augur> see, i'm trying to sort out the difference between a logic that has a rich domain of primitive (non-function) types
05:31:31 <augur> and a logic that has no such primitive types, but which has type-checking functions
05:31:37 <coppro> ah
05:31:59 <coppro> might want to look at Perl 6
05:32:00 <augur> in a sense its essentially a strictly-typed-vs-duck-typed issue, right
05:32:39 <coppro> yeah, I think so
05:32:50 <coppro> but then again
05:32:57 <augur> but i want to make sure that this is a difference that carries over to the extremely absurd idea of packing _all_ of your predicates into the types
05:33:43 <augur> e.g. instead of having like some prolog-esque function f(X,Y) :- g(X,Z), h(Z,Y), lets say
05:34:47 <augur> you just have f(X,Y) :- true. where f is defined for this crazy type GH, the members of which are all and only those pairs (X,Y) for which g(X,Z), h(Z,Y) is true
05:35:49 <coppro> is there a real difference?
05:35:56 <augur> thats the question
05:36:01 <augur> i dont think so, right
05:36:09 <coppro> I'd say they're equivalent
05:36:19 <coppro> since one can be expressed in terms of the other
05:36:23 <augur> because if your whole logic is _only_ with predicates (no actual functions, its all pure prology)
05:36:37 <augur> then it seems like all you're doing is replacing falsity in one with undefinedness in the other
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05:51:01 <ehird> back
05:52:27 <augur> hey
05:59:41 <ehird> poop
05:59:50 <augur> oppo
06:05:43 <ehird> it's 6:05 am i gotta bed myself soon
06:05:58 <pikhq> Perhaps.
06:06:22 <ehird> pikhq: to clarify, i have to be awake at 12an
06:06:24 <ehird> *am
06:07:02 <pikhq> Sleep, por favor.
06:07:37 <ehird> but i am eating first!
06:07:47 <ehird> I have something of an Oreo addiction.
06:08:15 <coppro> mm
06:08:25 <ehird> mm.
06:12:45 <ehird> i really need to switch to uberman; i suck at monophase
06:12:49 <ehird> like terribly badly
06:20:27 <ehird> :/
06:23:09 <coppro> lol me too
06:23:15 <coppro> but uberman would be untenable
06:23:19 <ehird> 6:22, i really have to be in bed soon
06:23:21 <ehird> coppro: Tesla?
06:23:26 <ehird> (http://tesser.org/sleep/teslapattern/)
06:23:56 <coppro> nope
06:24:04 <ehird> Why not?
06:24:17 <coppro> because taking a nap in school is not an option for me
06:24:32 <ehird> Why not?
06:24:36 <ehird> oh, pre-uni
06:24:51 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep#Comparison_of_sleep_patterns
06:24:54 <ehird> would everyman work for you?
06:24:58 <ehird> i guess not
06:25:00 <ehird> since it has a nap at midday
06:25:10 <ehird> incidentally t hose g raphs are awesome
06:25:17 <ehird> *those graphs
06:25:34 <ehird> uberman + perfected lucid dreaming and then I'd never have to be unconscious!
06:26:13 <coppro> right
06:27:02 <ehird> well just go into cryonic suspension until an in-school nap is tenable
06:27:58 <ehird> coppro: you could try this insane fucker's schedule: http://gill.tesser.org/
06:28:03 <ehird> ~16 naps of 4 minutes
06:28:19 <ehird> nobody, and i mean *nobody*, cannot disappear for 4 minutes 16 times a day :P
06:30:00 <ehird> i'm waiting for someone to order me to sleep
06:31:36 <ehird> also iirc the owner of tesser.org adjusted to uberman while in high school
06:32:20 <coppro> he may have had a consistent daily schedule with a spare in the middle or something
06:32:31 <coppro> or he just used his lunch breaks
06:32:35 <coppro> (maybe he had long ones)
06:33:04 <ehird> i dare you to do hexadecaphasic
06:34:08 <coppro> what's Uberman again? 30 minutes every 4 hours?
06:34:42 <ehird> 20
06:35:01 <coppro> ok
06:35:02 <ehird> well, 20-30, but 20 is canonical
06:35:07 <ehird> 30, as in dymaxion, is harder iirc
06:35:09 <coppro> If I didn't need to eat, I could fit that in my day
06:35:18 <ehird> well go for tesla then
06:35:27 <ehird> 20 minutes * 4
06:35:40 <coppro> I need to eat though
06:35:47 <ehird> if the idea of 80 minutes of sleep a day doesn't make you queasy, then the extra 40 minutes should be enough time to fit in eating.
06:36:01 <coppro> no, the problem is when
06:36:05 <coppro> my lunch hour is short
06:36:15 <ehird> well
06:36:17 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep#Comparison_of_sleep_patterns
06:36:18 <ehird> go for everyman then
06:36:22 <ehird> three naps in the day
06:36:23 <coppro> same problem
06:36:24 <ehird> one core nap
06:36:33 <ehird> coppro: you can rearrange the naps you know
06:36:36 <ehird> as long as they're evenly spaced
06:36:40 <coppro> yeah
06:36:45 <coppro> but I'd need to have one over lunch
06:36:48 <coppro> no real avoiding that
06:36:55 <ehird> true.
06:36:56 <coppro> otherwise I'd be going ~7 hours without sleep
06:37:02 <ehird> well, what other free time do you have in the school day
06:37:33 <coppro> a spare, but it's not at a consistent hour on a given day
06:37:43 <coppro> also, I do other stuff where continual conciousness is required
06:37:48 <coppro> for many hours at a time
06:38:13 <ehird> not many people actually do one thing continuously for over 4 hours.
06:38:13 <coppro> hexadecaphasic would be theoretically possible, but I'm not ready to deprive myself of sleep for two weeks
06:38:25 <ehird> coppro: erm, uberman fucks you up for 10 days
06:38:35 <ehird> it's not just sleep deprivation that fucks you up it's your body adjusting
06:38:37 <coppro> ehird: wasn't talking about uberman
06:38:40 <ehird> simply unavoidable
06:38:42 <ehird> coppro: i mean that
06:38:45 <ehird> uberman has the same issue
06:39:21 <ehird> please god, make me sleepy
06:39:39 <ehird> or i'll end up on inverse monophase again
06:40:04 <coppro> ehird: yes I know
06:40:22 <coppro> but yes, I do stuff where I may quite possibly not have a moment's rest for 7 or 8 hours
06:40:39 <ehird> I doubt highly.
06:41:57 <coppro> your doubt does not change the underlying reality
06:42:13 <ehird> I think it's just an excuse.
06:42:27 <coppro> negative
06:42:37 <ehird> Your negations do not change my underlying suspicion.
06:42:42 <coppro> fair enough
06:43:30 <ehird> Please convince me to go to bed.
06:43:31 <ehird> It's almost 7am.
06:43:45 <coppro> doing anything today?
06:43:51 <ehird> I need to be up at 12am.
06:44:11 <coppro> then close your computer, masturbate a little, and the sleep will probably catch up
06:44:37 <ehird> added to list of "weirdest advice given on IRC".
06:44:49 <coppro> lol
06:44:58 <ehird> a list that i should probably not maintain as it's something like 5 billion lines long by now
06:45:06 <coppro> probably nt
06:45:08 <coppro> *not
06:46:54 <ehird> sleep now:
06:46:58 <ehird> - get barely any sleep
06:47:03 <ehird> - wake up annoyed
06:47:07 <ehird> don't sleep:
06:47:08 <ehird> - get tired
06:47:08 <coppro> better than no sleep
06:47:14 <ehird> - end up on inverse monophase, become suicidal
06:47:25 <coppro> although
06:47:31 <coppro> depending on how important your stuff is
06:47:42 <coppro> you may just find it easier to push through to the evening and retire early
06:47:59 <ehird> i'm terrible at all-nighters, i just fall asleep in the early afternoon
06:48:05 <ehird> and wake up late at night
06:48:09 <ehird> i.e. inverse monophase
06:48:15 <coppro> you need someone/thing to keep you up until the evening
06:48:18 <ehird> a schedule soulcrushing because you never have any contact with humans or see daylight
06:48:25 <coppro> if you don't have that, then yeah, don't do it
06:48:33 <ehird> ehh, i could probably manage it
06:48:35 <ehird> let me see if the sun is out
06:48:39 <ehird> if it's out, i'll stay awake
06:48:46 <ehird> if it's not, ... i'll probably stay awake
06:49:04 <coppro> I take it you don't drink caffeine much?
06:49:22 <ehird> false; I drink far too much of it via soft drinks
06:49:27 <ehird> i probably shouldn't
06:49:27 <coppro> ah
06:49:42 <ehird> ok well i find it impossible to really sleep for less than eight hours
06:49:43 <coppro> eh, you're probably adapted
06:49:49 <ehird> so best-case waking up time is 15:00
06:49:54 <ehird> more likely is 17:00
06:50:00 <ehird> as the later I go to bed the more I need sleep
06:50:05 <ehird> 15:00 is ... half-workable
06:50:08 <ehird> 17:00 is absolutely not
06:50:12 <ehird> so, that's risky
06:50:15 <coppro> don't do that
06:50:20 <ehird> don't do wat
06:50:21 <ehird> *what
06:50:28 <coppro> that's a pretty bad sleep schedule to put yourself on
06:50:40 <ehird> also, if i stay up, and manage to reach the evening, then i can get to bed early
06:50:43 <ehird> thus waking up early in the morning
06:50:52 <ehird> thus getting tired not long after it gets dark
06:51:02 <ehird> thus putting me in an advantageous position for future sleep
06:51:25 <ehird> downside: pissed off parental overlords (they are, I find, not fans of the inverse monophase schedule)
06:51:27 <ehird> but ehh
06:51:31 <ehird> I don't want to wake up when it's dark
06:51:39 <ehird> so (retroactive) all-nighter it is.
06:52:22 <ehird> I got up in the afternoon yesterday, anyway, so I should be able to make it
06:52:32 <ehird> and I was *planning* to go to bed at 3am
06:52:36 <ehird> *sigh*
06:53:59 <ehird> ok, i must find some programming to do posthaste to keep my brain awake... and not anything important because i'll fuck it up
06:54:06 <coppro> euler
06:54:12 <coppro> or try to learn a language
06:54:25 <ehird> i don't think my brain takes new concepts in too well when sleeping
06:54:40 <coppro> good; you won't be sleeping for 10 hours
06:54:42 <ehird> and project euler doesn't really have any fun results, so my tiredbrain probably won't like it
06:54:47 <ehird> coppro: erm
06:54:49 <ehird> when sleepy
06:54:57 <coppro> :P
06:55:04 <ehird> i'll work on my scm2c compiler
06:55:09 <ehird> that's a fun toy project
06:55:42 <coppro> I remember asking but never getting a good answer; how did they mess up R6RS?
06:56:02 <ehird> yay, something to do (compiling a response to that)
06:56:03 <ehird> sec
06:56:29 <ehird> stupid fucking slow r6rs.org
06:56:36 <ehird> tired ehird has no patience or manners
06:56:54 <ehird> fucking piece of shit google cache grr
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07:07:22 <ehird> coppro: "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary."
07:07:23 <ehird> So says the preface of R5RS, and by extension R6RS. One of these languages obeys this principle; the one with a six in its name is not it. Furthermore, Scheme is, at heart, a pedagogical language; one for academics. Certainly, one can accomplish practical programming tasks with it, but simplicity is its driving force.
07:07:25 <ehird> R6RS adds features such as a module system that deals with the nitty-gritty details of "real world" modules. This is practical, certainly, and most likely useful, but not something that belongs in, at least, the core language standard.
07:07:26 <ehird> Furthermore, R6RS's base language offers basically nothing over R5RS. And then we get to the libraries. Oh, dear; the libraries. "Bytevectors"; a mere specialisation of vectors to byte elements. That is an optimisation for the compiler to perform, not something that goes in the core language. Scheme is already hard enough to compile efficiency; this is just unneeded ugliness.
07:07:28 <ehird> Exceptions. Again a nitty-gritty specification of something that Scheme already has, in an SRFI. R6RS seems to think that SRFIs aren't a good enough way to define additional libraries, and it should instead wantonly define them itself. This is antisocial at best.
07:07:32 <ehird> syntax-case, a supported-elsewhere, complicated macro system. Are simple syntax-rules hygenic macros really so bad that we had to add this to the standard?
07:07:35 <ehird> Hashtables. Even here the name makes a laughing stock out of what Scheme is; a hashtable is an implementation detail of an associative array; indeed, even the "array" part is an implementation detail here, so perhaps associative map would be the best terminology. It's sundry; clearly little thought was put into this, least of all to whether it actually fit into Scheme.
07:07:40 <ehird> Also, note that only 65.7% of the electors voted to approve R6RS; i.e. 34.3% opposed it. And R6RS wouldn't have passed depending on a wording detail: 65.7% of electors who *voted* said Yes. Apparently it used to be all electors in general, or at least there was some confusion. So, R6RS was not even widely accepted by the voters. This is reflected in the small set of R6RS implementations; indeed, no R5RS implementations have moved to R6RS.
07:07:45 <ehird> For further opinions on this matter, I direct you to the No votes at I wouldn't bother reading the Yes votes; most of them don't have any arguments as is typical of such things. But a lot of the No votes very eloquently, and in quite a few cases verbosely, argue against R6RS.
07:07:50 <ehird> I don't think R6RS is all that bad a language in itself, but it's certainly a bad Scheme.
07:08:30 <coppro> ok, thanks
07:08:37 <coppro> this your writing or a copy/paste?
07:09:18 <ehird> I wrote it, yes.
07:09:54 <ehird> Oh my fucking god, you can make computer cases out of lego
07:10:02 <ehird> Behold: http://monochrome.yudia.net/images/legopc/DSCN0708.JPG
07:11:21 <Pthing> of course you can
07:11:25 <Pthing> they're just boxes mang
07:11:27 <ehird> Yes, but, shut up.
07:12:03 <ehird> It'd be cool if you made it entirely out of black lego bricks. Boring standard case from afar, lego monstrosity from close-up.
07:12:13 <ehird> Also a hinge made out of legoii to make a door. Or something.
07:12:16 <ehird> I'm slightly incoherent when tired.
07:20:50 <ehird> i forgot the downside to not sleeping
07:20:53 <ehird> you can't think properly
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07:29:16 <ehird> wb coppro
07:30:27 <coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
07:30:34 <ehird> what
07:31:01 <ehird> `addquote <coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
07:31:07 <coppro> I have a sudden urge to describe something as 'It is a game \ played by an idiot, full of sound and fury, \ signifying nothing.'
07:31:09 <HackEgo> 115|<coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
07:31:14 <ehird> coppro: >_<
07:31:19 <ehird> mm
07:31:20 <ehird> *hmm
07:31:25 <ehird> is the quote better without the second line?
07:31:27 <ehird> i think so :P
07:31:29 <coppro> yes
07:31:34 <coppro> the second line makes it sound almost reasonable
07:31:55 <ehird> well, you didn't get the fury bit in
07:32:14 <ehird> also, it'd have been better making it a story involving that yelling instead of a game, to more closely match the original
07:32:17 <coppro> yelling is usually associated with fury
07:32:23 <ehird> true.
07:34:41 <coppro> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/dubai_debt_crisis_halts_building
07:35:22 <ehird> ha
07:35:28 <ehird> dubai is such a shitty plcae
07:35:30 <ehird> *place
07:36:35 <coppro> haha they've also got one 'Gay Teen Worried he Might be Christian'
07:45:56 <ehird> old :P
07:46:41 <ehird> GIMP is so slow to start up
07:46:58 <coppro> yeah :(
07:47:08 <coppro> and it still has that horrible toolbox thing
07:47:37 <coppro> apparently the designers of the GIMP have never attempted to use it simultaneously with another application
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08:03:27 <ehird> asdfgjk
08:09:33 <ehird> i need to eat soon or i will surely fall asleep
08:09:40 <ehird> coppro: btw can you remove those retarded plasmoid icon things
08:09:43 <ehird> on the panel and desktop
08:10:19 <coppro> if you lock the widgets, the panel one goes away
08:10:25 <coppro> don't think you can get rid of the desktop one
08:11:56 <ehird> coppro: also, re: adjusting to caffeine (yeah yeah raising statements from the dead) i don't think that's actually possible, after all caffeine fucks up polyphasic sleep regardless
08:12:10 <ehird> which is why people give up caffeine and alcohol for a good time when switching
08:12:14 <ehird> preferably indefinitely
08:12:17 <coppro> if it was taken in regular doses it probably wouldn't
08:12:25 <ehird> nope
08:12:27 <ehird> it does
08:12:34 <ehird> since it makes you miss naps, full stop
08:12:35 <coppro> regular meaning throughout the day
08:12:46 <coppro> not just like once a day
08:12:55 <coppro> after a couple weeks of caffeination, the brain compensates
08:13:46 <ehird> cite
08:14:05 * coppro will find
08:14:28 <coppro> (note that it would have to be very carefully controlled to make sure the brain had a near-constant caffeine level
08:14:40 <ehird> and thus totally useless for actual caffeine drinking
08:14:46 <ehird> which is good for staying awake
08:15:55 <coppro> ehird: Wikipedia mentions it; though I'm too lazy to run through their sources
08:16:10 <ehird> k
08:16:52 <coppro> caffeine inhibits adenosine so the body adds adenosine receptors
08:17:13 <coppro> this will balance out
08:17:55 <ehird> i wonder if chocolate hurts polyphasic sleep too
08:18:15 <coppro> probably
08:18:39 <ehird> why? does it have any effect other than making you happy?
08:18:44 <coppro> it has caffeine in it
08:18:53 <coppro> not in large quantities, but if you had lots of chocolate, you'd notice
08:19:18 <ehird> ah, true
08:21:21 <ehird> coppro: what about raw chocoltae? :p
08:21:23 <coppro> most of my caffeine intake is through chocolate and the occasional soft drink, and I don't normally have a lot of that. I like this because it means if I really need a boost, I can drink something strongly caffeinated and I really feel it
08:21:23 <ehird> *chocolate
08:21:29 <ehird> (http://www.therawchocolatecompany.com/)
08:22:12 <ehird> coppro: I really ought to find a drink that I can drink offhand more-or-less continuously throughout the day that isn't of questionable healthiness
08:22:20 <ehird> But I'm lazy.
08:22:38 <coppro> a non-caffeinated soft drink?
08:22:59 <ehird> coppro: that still has five tons of sugar
08:23:08 <coppro> true
08:23:13 <coppro> water's not bad
08:24:30 <coppro> hmm... I probably consume a tonne of water every year
08:24:31 <ehird> i find the water supply in this country to be distasteful, and bottled water to be wasteful and ridiculous
08:24:42 <ehird> so I drink very little water, generally
08:24:47 <coppro> oh, that sucks :(
08:25:00 <ehird> (distasteful as in crappy, not as in literally distasteful)
08:25:05 <ehird> I could buy a water filter
08:25:11 <ehird> i guess
08:25:15 <coppro> yeah, it's good
08:25:44 <ehird> but i dunno, i kinda like tasting things :p
08:26:01 <coppro> heh
08:26:16 <coppro> when I want something like that, I usually go with fruit juice of some description
08:26:17 <coppro> usually apple
08:26:33 <coppro> but not the horribly watered-down stuff
08:26:52 <ehird> there's a fine line between taste and too much taste, though
08:28:02 * ehird yawns
08:29:07 <coppro> bad ehird
08:29:47 <ehird> what
08:31:31 <coppro> no sleeping!
08:31:53 <ehird> http://rawchocshop.com/detail.asp?prodID=23&anch=1
08:31:57 <ehird> The most hardcore bar of chocolate, ever
08:32:01 <ehird> 100% raw cacao chocolate bar
08:32:43 <coppro> I'd imagine that to be rather bitter
08:33:57 <ehird> You don't say
08:38:12 <coppro> I can't even eat 80%
08:38:23 <ehird> Apparently past 80% it takes on a whole new consistency
08:38:37 <ehird> I had some I think 80% once and enjoyed it, if I had small pieces
08:39:26 <ehird> coppro: http://www.keacher.com/?p=388
08:39:30 <ehird> Comparison of 85% to 99%
08:39:52 <ehird> I love the warnings
08:39:58 <ehird> It's like "THIS IS A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH"
08:40:30 <ehird> I'd break off a big chunk and chomp on it just to subvert their authority, man
08:40:39 <ehird> It's also... completely black
08:42:38 * coppro wonders if callebaut makes super-dark chocolate
08:43:19 <ehird> Maybe my main drink should be Swig Ingest Drink :P
08:43:34 <ehird> (My ephemeral, ill-specified, vaporware home-made soft drink, inspired by Gregor's efforts.)
08:51:38 <Gregor> Gregor's entirely successful efforts.
08:51:54 <ehird> Was that sarcasm or joy?
08:52:33 <Gregor> My efforts were in fact entirely successful.
08:52:37 <Gregor> My gingersnap soda is fantabulous.
08:53:03 <ehird> ...that sounds far too delicious to exist.
08:53:05 <ehird> Send me some.
08:53:44 <ehird> Except make them with ginger nuts instead, dammit, I'm a Brit.</terrible joke>
08:54:53 <ehird> yawn
08:55:06 <ehird> Gregor: Anyway, you said that adding acidy thingybob made it... less acidic, right?
08:55:19 <ehird> (Acidy thingybob *not* being acid. (Has anyone made LSD soda?))
08:56:40 <Gregor> ....
08:56:43 <Gregor> Citric acid?
08:56:49 <ehird> I'm sleep deprived, you know.
08:56:55 <ehird> Coherency is optional and discouraged.
08:57:02 <Gregor> Adding citric acid made it more acidic.
08:57:06 <ehird> Yes, but better.
08:57:07 <ehird> Somehow?
08:57:08 <Gregor> But it's vital that it be acidic.
08:57:09 <Gregor> Yeah.
08:57:15 <ehird> Why
08:57:17 <Gregor> It doesn't have the right bite unless it's acidic.
08:57:24 <Gregor> The carbonation doesn't feel right.
08:57:37 <ehird> I was trying to avoid bite, though.
08:57:45 <ehird> It was meant to be the worlds first smooth soft drink. :P
08:58:05 <ehird> Haha, best spam site technique ever: "Allow the next page a few seconds to load... Email: [ ] [ Free Instant Access! ]"
08:58:09 <ehird> The page source has no redirection code whatsoever
08:58:17 * ehird feeds it mailinator
08:58:23 <ehird> *to mailinator
08:58:26 <Gregor> Feel free to attempt it without the citric acid, but the carbonation simply doesn't /feel/ right (by which I do mean feel, mouthfeel) unless it's acidic.
08:58:42 <ehird> Can you quantify that?
08:58:58 <Gregor> 1/4Tsp citric acid per 5 cups water.
08:59:24 <Gregor> Or did you actually want me to qualify that? :P
08:59:36 <ehird> lol, the page is basically "Cloud computing will kill Microsoft. The japs are doing it. I'll Fed-Ex you the scoop 100% FREE please give me your details."
09:00:03 <ehird> Gregor: Quantify the mouthfeel issue, I mean.
09:00:34 * ehird has a ridiculous idea
09:00:43 <ehird> That 100% raw chocolate bar, in a soda.
09:00:57 <Gregor> We do have chocolate soda here :P
09:01:06 <ehird> Gregor: But is it 100% uncooked cacao?
09:01:08 <Gregor> It's hard to describe ... there's a tingling, poppiness to the carbonation of real soda that's lost without it.
09:01:20 <Gregor> ehird: No, that would be horrendous and bitter. Unless you add sugar of course.
09:01:23 <ehird> Gregor: the sort-of-burning sensation?
09:01:25 <ehird> except without the heat
09:01:42 <Gregor> Well, yes, it does add that, but it's more than that.
09:01:42 <ehird> (100% raw cacao soda: Also combinable with my popular Fisherman's Fiend recipe to produce the worst drink ever.)
09:02:11 <Gregor> It's hard to describe, suffice it to say that I tried a few times without, then decided to add it, and went "OH. That's why it wasn't soda."
09:02:22 <ehird> Alright then
09:02:42 <ehird> Gregor: you should make Fisherman's Fiend.
09:02:54 <Gregor> Oy :P
09:03:02 <Gregor> I'm going to make snoring sounds instead.
09:03:05 <Gregor> (While sleeping)
09:03:07 <Gregor> *zzz*
09:03:10 <ehird> Gregor: But Fisherman's Fiend
09:03:12 <ehird> Is
09:03:13 <ehird> The
09:03:15 <ehird> Second-Worst
09:03:16 <ehird> Drink
09:03:18 <ehird> Ever!
09:03:29 <ehird> (First is 100% raw cacao soda + Fisherman's Fiend, third is 100% raw cacao soda.)
09:29:55 * coppro tries to remember the shortcut he has to close a window with a click that isn't on the X
09:30:05 <ehird> alt-f2 xkill enter click
09:30:27 <coppro> a normal close, not a kill
09:30:35 <coppro> (and Ctrl-Esc is faster)
09:30:44 <coppro> err
09:30:48 <coppro> whatever it is
09:30:54 <coppro> now that I'm trying to remember, it's escaped me
09:31:16 <coppro> Ctrl-Alt-Esc
09:33:56 <coppro> hmm, appears to be no option for that
09:33:58 <coppro> lame
10:06:52 <ehird> asd
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10:22:41 <ehird> *Main> :t vAppend (VCons 1 VNil) (VCons 2 (VCons 3 VNil))
10:22:42 <ehird> vAppend (VCons 1 VNil) (VCons 2 (VCons 3 VNil))
10:22:44 <ehird> :: (Num t) =>
10:22:45 <ehird> Vec (TyPlus (TySucc TyZero) (TySucc (TySucc TyZero))) t
10:23:10 <ehird> *Main> :t vHead . vTail . vTail $ vAppend (VCons 1 VNil) (VCons 2 (VCons 3 VNil))
10:23:12 <ehird> vHead . vTail . vTail $ vAppend (VCons 1 VNil) (VCons 2 (VCons 3 VNil))
10:23:13 <ehird> :: (Num a) => a
10:23:15 <ehird> *Main> :t vHead . vTail . vTail . vTail $ vAppend (VCons 1 VNil) (VCons 2 (VCons 3 VNil))
10:23:16 <ehird> (type error)
10:23:26 <ehird> Dependent typing in Haskell? Yeah, we do that. Basically.
10:25:06 <ehird> now accepting theses on why my brain is currently incapable of comprehending the idea of window management but can whip up type-level computation in haskell in a snap
10:38:36 <Pthing> my thesis is a poorly structured essay that depends heavily on a generalised reading of Snow Crash in the eponymous novel, combined with some stuff taken from the back of sugar packets about hippocampi
10:39:52 <ehird> Pthing: that sentence is pœtic and beautiful to me, is that worrying?
10:40:05 <ehird> *Main> evenClub NSZero Refl
10:40:07 <ehird> ()
10:40:08 <ehird> *Main> evenClub (NSSucc NSZero) Refl
10:40:10 <ehird> <interactive>:1:25:
10:40:11 <ehird> Couldn't match expected type `TyNEven (TySucc TyZero)'
10:40:12 <Pthing> no, but if i'd known, that would have been worthy of a chapter
10:40:13 <ehird> against inferred type `TyTrue'
10:40:14 <ehird> In the second argument of `evenClub', namely `Refl'
10:40:16 <ehird> In the expression: evenClub (NSSucc NSZero) Refl
10:40:17 <ehird> In the definition of `it': it = evenClub (NSSucc NSZero) Refl
10:40:19 <ehird> FUCK YEAH I'M DEPENDN'
10:40:24 <ehird> if i wasn't stealing all my tricks from She I'd actually feel accomplished
10:40:39 <ehird> man i am so writing a preprocessor to generate the fuck out of this shit though, automatic function → type family conversion is gold
10:43:07 <ehird> i am so brilliant
10:48:38 <ehird> oh shit do i need some sort of type ... reification ... to other types... thing
10:48:42 <ehird> fuck if i do that is bad
10:49:02 <ehird> ooh I know
10:54:13 <ehird> okay now i will write a dependently-typed lambda calculus implementation in haskell
10:54:27 <ehird> I wonder why my brain focuses on types over values when tired
11:05:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Here's one preliminary stitch of the CS building: http://zem.fi/~fis/cs.jpg -- it's a bit seamy, and I doubt anything can be done to the railing immediately in front, since it's sort of important that what's behind it lines up properly. <-- nice. Btw I have some ideas of how such problems could be "fixed"
11:05:34 <AnMaster> hugin certainly can't
11:06:15 <AnMaster> but my idea is using parallax to build up a (partial) 3D model of the scene to be able to stitch a panorama out of it
11:07:03 <ehird> *Main> let foo = Lam 0 (Var 1) (Lam 2 (Var 3) (Var 0))
11:07:43 <ehird> *Main> infer Map.empty foo
11:07:43 <ehird> Lam 0 (Var 42) (Lam 2 (Var 42) (Var 1))
11:07:43 <ehird> close but no cigar :(
11:07:43 <ehird> should be Lam 0 (Var 1) (Lam 2 (Var 3) (Var 0))
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11:14:47 <fizzie> For contrast, I am currently optimizing another view of the same scene; this time done by taking a two-minute videoclip of waving the N900 around, then extracting every fifth frame (344 images in total) and feeding that to Hugin.
11:16:03 <fizzie> The video capture resolution is just 848x480, so the resolution won't be so good; and there's a lot of motion blurring going on. It would probably work better if I auto-selected sharp frames instead of taking every fifth.
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11:17:24 <fizzie> Also rather slow to optimize 1031 parameters (343 times yaw+pitch+roll, plus view+barrel) using about 10000 control points.
11:18:00 <fizzie> Oh, and I managed to get hugin so swap-trashy I had to finally kill it, in the exposure optimization step. Going to have to retry with a smaller number of points.
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11:48:10 <ehird> assqx
11:48:17 <ehird> assistant... qx
11:48:20 <ehird> quality Xcellence
11:48:30 <ehird> assistant quality excellence, one who assists in the verification of excellence of quality
11:48:32 <ehird> assqx
11:49:14 <ehird> chrslrtk
11:49:25 <ehird> chalice roads lamer rectal tick
11:49:31 <ehird> chrslrtk
11:52:22 <ehird> toijsdiojh
11:52:55 <ehird> toys ima[jg]ine salviate dinner orange juice h
11:52:58 <ehird> h...
11:52:59 <ehird> hello
11:53:01 <ehird> toys ima[jg]ine salviate dinner orange juice hello
11:53:04 <ehird> toijsdiojh
11:56:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, run it on that 64 GB ram system ;P
11:56:20 <AnMaster> bbl
11:59:06 <ehird> flightless arsenhůven
11:59:13 <ehird> ůven, œven, i want a character in between
11:59:18 <ehird> like oue without the e, ligatury
11:59:34 <ehird> that would be worth arsenhouvening for
12:00:09 <ehird> papyrus pluralled... papyruses?
12:00:13 <ehird> that would be cool
12:00:18 <ehird> it's probably papyri or something gay though
12:00:32 <ehird> papyrusapapyrusapapyruses
12:01:20 <ehird> i wonder what the logo of emacswiki really is
12:01:20 <fizzie> Plural papyri Brit. /p{schwa}{sm}p{revv}{shti}r{revv}{shti}/, U.S. /p{schwa}{sm}pa{shti}ri/, /p{schwa}{sm}pa{shti}{smm}ra{shti}/, papyruses. Forms: ME-16 papirus, ME- papyrus.
12:01:23 <ehird> it looks like CE
12:01:24 <ehird> or perhaps (E
12:01:40 <ehird> fizzie: ok so you can either be fucktarded or delicious when plurunctuating that word, good to know
12:01:47 <ehird> don't be a fucktard man
12:01:48 <ehird> be delicious
12:01:50 <ehird> in everything you do
12:02:05 <fizzie> (OED has IPA characters as images with alt-texts like that, so pasting is unfun.)
12:02:58 <ehird> ohYeahTotallyWotzzat
12:03:25 <ehird> fizzie: fuck OED fucking proprietary english fucking bullshit OED fucking proprietary bullshit fucking OED but i mean i likey oed but FUCKing oed fucking proprietary yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
12:03:27 <ehird> hhhh
12:03:35 <ehird> mmyestotally?
12:04:07 <fizzie> oͧ - o with combining small letter u.
12:04:14 <ehird> yay i wonder how i tell emacs to tell me in what order does it load files at the starting
12:04:20 <ehird> fizzie: i was think more in style of œ
12:04:22 <ehird> MAKE IT SO
12:04:36 <fizzie> I don't think it's very makable with Unicode.
12:05:12 <ehird> dickinsons! i haven't heaven'd whatfore might be his name
12:05:24 <ehird> you should make a fungot thing out of just things i've said
12:05:24 <fungot> ehird: good luck! :) http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ plt-scheme/ 2006-october/ fnord
12:05:29 <ehird> it'd be splendfunctorlicious
12:06:06 <ehird> fizzie: i expect it yesterday
12:06:20 <ehird> yestermorrow, is there any time _really_
12:06:38 <ehird> type functor declaration undecidable dependent instance fuck yeah automatic function to type family conversion also also also also also stack overflow also
12:06:49 <ehird> i want to be incoherent constantly
12:06:51 <ehird> it's so fucking rad
12:07:46 <fizzie> Hey, there is a latin letter "ou"; though it looks a bit different: ȣ
12:07:55 <fizzie> There's also oi: ƣ
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12:08:20 <ehird> have you noticed, billy, that sometimes, b
12:08:21 <ehird> omg
12:08:26 <ehird> ȣ
12:08:29 <ehird> favourite letter
12:08:41 <ehird> flightless arsenhȣven
12:08:58 <ehird> jesus christ it's perfect, why is it uo instead of ou though in the glyph glyph
12:09:06 <ehird> also when is ehird-fungot-mode-just-of-the-lines-of coming
12:09:06 <fungot> ehird: if ( language " python"
12:09:08 <fizzie> dz also has its own ligature-like thing; it's full of kudzu.
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12:10:04 <fizzie> ȸ, the database letter.
12:10:07 <ehird> you are constantly avoideravoideravoideravoideramating my qusetion
12:10:13 <ehird> rȸms
12:10:16 <ehird>
12:10:18 <fizzie> Yes, unashamedly.
12:11:06 <ehird> wouldn't it be an awesome mode though though
12:11:24 <fizzie> Yes yes.
12:11:32 <ehird> So do it do it BBQ it
12:11:36 <ehird> It's just
12:11:39 <ehird> cat thelinesforirc
12:11:44 <ehird> | grep '^<ehird>"
12:11:46 <ehird> | poop
12:11:49 <ehird> or whateveramever
12:12:11 <fizzie> My computar is busy doing PHOTOGRAMMETRIC ALIGNMENT for that videorama.
12:12:51 <ehird> dude it can handle some filtering, i'm sure it loves me
12:13:01 <ehird> oves me ves me es me me me e
12:13:08 <ehird> so fucking hypnotic
12:13:10 <ehird> s/ $//
12:13:11 <fizzie> It has already spent half an hour optimizing exposure and white-balance parameters, and the error hasn't noticeably changed for the last 25 minutes.
12:13:12 <ehird> i want to clean it
12:13:14 <ehird> though t'is correct
12:13:17 <ehird> t'is, is that correct?
12:13:25 <ehird> it's t'is→→it is
12:13:28 <ehird> so i guess 't'is
12:13:36 <ehird> but that's the same size as it is
12:13:42 <ehird> so you'd have to be fucking retarded to say it mon
12:14:02 <fizzie> "'tis", isn't it?
12:14:06 <fizzie> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27tis
12:14:10 <ehird> that omits the expanded space you do
12:14:11 <ehird> ILLOGICAL FUCK
12:14:17 <ehird> 'T'is't'isn't
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12:14:20 <ehird> → It is it isn't
12:14:25 <ehird> beautiful
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12:14:30 <ehird> beautiful like rabies
12:15:00 <fizzie> I do multi-apostrophe contractions sometimes in IRC-lingo.
12:15:18 <ehird> Wasn'tn't.
12:15:20 <ehird> Was not not
12:15:36 <ehird> Well, it wasn'tn't great.
12:16:08 <ehird> It just wasn'tn'tn'tn't awesome.
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12:16:25 <ehird> *wasn'tn'tn'tn'tn't
12:16:27 <ehird> i think
12:16:37 <ehird> whoreses
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12:19:40 <ehird> now let's not enigmaticise here.
12:19:50 <ehird> this isn't free
12:28:43 <ehird> okay so you can use ~/.emacs.d/init.el instead of ~/.emacs that is cool
12:32:10 <oklopol> "t'is" is illogical?
12:32:23 <oklopol> err
12:32:29 <oklopol> i mean "'tis" is illogical?
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12:34:59 <fizzie> Yes, I guess the problem there was that the space between "it" and "is" is not marked at all.
12:35:30 <ehird> absolutely
12:35:36 <ehird> dfhgfhjhkodg
12:42:00 <ehird> i'm yawning all about insanity
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13:00:40 <ehird> i love how i'm understanding things.
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13:19:36 <ehird> 9 windows of firefox with multiple tabs in every window, some with enough to make the tab srcoller appear, plus amarok, kopete and kovnersation makes kde's window manager crawl
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13:23:28 <oklopol> ah, unlike in the other ones like "you're" and "there's"
13:25:18 <ehird> oklopol: stfu, i'm musing about thoughts that were not thunk in this quantum stream but were thunk in some other quantum stream, that is unthunk thoughts, affecting the (I postulate for no particular reason commutative) p-therefore-q-as-a-thought-process operation so that you think a thought, and then you think (because of the unthinking) a thought by which you derive the previous thought, but this turns out to be a contradiction that you couldn't check
13:25:20 <ehird> ahead of time because you can't predict the future, and thus the infinite memory required to represent such a thought might overflow your brain or something
13:25:36 <ehird> i have far transcended any sort of petty english syntactical debates, my thoughts are pure euphoria of form
13:26:05 <ehird> it is beautiful.
13:26:27 <oklopol> ah
13:26:31 <oklopol> yeah sorry
13:26:39 <oklopol> you're right
13:26:46 <ehird> oklopol: do you sort of grok what i'm sayinh
13:26:47 <ehird> *saying
13:27:48 <oklopol> hmm, maybe.
13:28:20 <oklopol> given a bit of serious pondering, it looks totally sensible
13:28:44 <ehird> hmm so if you can communicate across many-worlds branches, then you could cause unthunk thoughts to mingle with this thought stream and become thunk thoughts, thus removing the permutations they performed on your thoughts and instead becoming first-class citizens (albeit being q-thought-before-p in (p therefore q)) of thought
13:29:05 <ehird> therefore, achieving "enlightenment" could be modelled as having no unthunk thoughts; having every thought be thunk by quantum methods
13:29:17 <ehird> and thus all there is is pure thought itself, no hidden reasoning chains or side-effects
13:29:35 <ehird> but this is straying into the religious or at the very least the metaphysical. nevertheless, it does seem to follow.
13:31:30 <oklopol> i still think i follow, but i'm not sure what i get out of that would sound nearly as esoteric, so i'm gonna keep it to myself.
13:31:37 <oklopol> the trees are slightly less pretty now.
13:32:47 <ehird> oklopol: nonono do say it
13:32:49 <ehird> even if it is merely
13:32:52 <ehird> "that is bullshit"
13:32:56 <oklopol> ;)
13:33:11 <ehird> I mean I don't actually *believe* any of this, I'm just letting thoughts permute themselves automatically through my process instead of suppressing them, and thus elaborating on them
13:33:14 <ehird> who says what you think has to be true?
13:33:33 <ehird> oklopol: maybe you unthunk something in the far, far future about trees that is bad
13:33:38 <ehird> and that is affecting how you view trees now
13:33:56 <ehird> you need to create a causal reasoning chain justifying how good trees are of greater power than it so as to override it
13:34:00 <ehird> and enjoy trees
13:34:52 <oklopol> we could model thinking as a process that takes unthunk thoughts, unprocessed data, and outputs thunk thoughts, some sort of results. if there were multiple worlds with the same entity existing multiple times, living almost exactly the same lives, he could skip ahead in his thoughts by accessing the thunk thoughts of a fellow him.
13:35:05 <oklopol> you probably didn't mean anything like that.
13:35:31 <ehird> oklopol: no, that is *exactly* it!
13:35:35 <oklopol> i'm so sexy
13:36:22 <ehird> oklopol: let's mutually thunk the other's unthunk thoughts so as to expand both our repertoire of thoughts (← this is what sex is like post-singularity)
13:36:32 <oklopol> :D
13:37:15 <ehird> *repertoires
13:37:34 <ehird> oklopol: sometimes it can be a bit embarrasing too
13:37:51 <oklopol> having sex?
13:37:58 <ehird> post-singularity thunk sex.
13:38:01 <oklopol> right
13:38:14 <ehird> i mean occasionally you're doing it and you think "but the chicken *was* over 18, and it *was* going around naked... plus the peanut butter was right there..."
13:38:25 <ehird> and you're like "um. $name? why wasn't I invited?"
13:38:26 <ehird> and yeah.
13:38:31 <oklopol> probably, like yelling "mmm you smell just like my mum" in bed, but you can suppress it even less
13:38:49 <ehird> you're meant to suppress that?! WHY WASN'T I INFORMED OF THIS
13:39:23 <ehird> speaking of which you are so going to owe me money in... about three years
13:39:50 <oklopol> because in your case it'll not be relevant for like 15 years
13:39:50 <ehird> :))
13:39:54 <oklopol> ZING
13:40:07 <ehird> oklopol: exactly why you will owe me money in three years
13:40:11 <oklopol> yeah
13:40:14 <ehird> in case you don't remember we have a bet :P
13:40:16 <oklopol> how much was it?
13:40:19 <ehird> how m lol
13:40:28 <oklopol> i do, just not the amount, i can't remember numbers that mean something
13:40:29 <ehird> well i know it was a few days off my birthday so ic an check
13:40:31 <ehird> *i can
13:40:37 <ehird> I think £50
13:40:38 <oklopol> 50
13:40:39 <oklopol> yeah
13:40:45 <oklopol> that's what i would guess
13:40:49 <ehird> which is a nice heap of money for doing nothing
13:41:17 <oklopol> well for doing noone, i think you were allowed to do *something*
13:41:27 <ehird> hur hur hur
13:41:29 <oklopol> (tried "noone", don't like it)
13:41:45 <ehird> yeah it was £50
13:41:52 <ehird> oklopol: nobody is a much better word to use imo
13:41:56 <oklopol> ehird: but not only a joke, mostly i was asking what rules we agreed on.
13:42:08 <ehird> ah
13:42:27 <ehird> i'm fairly sure it's only other people that count, otherwise my hand would count and that'd just be a ridiculous bet
13:42:28 <ehird> `calc 50 pounds in euros
13:42:31 <HackEgo> 50 British pounds = 56.6239465 Euros
13:42:37 <ehird> :(( it's gone down since the last time
13:42:43 <oklopol> i use "no one" or "nobody", had to check "noone" out because it's so popular
13:42:46 <ehird> was 57.47 on 2009-08-21
13:43:04 <ehird> 18:10:17 <oklopol> i'm also preparing for extremely early onset inflation
13:43:24 <oklopol> :D
13:43:48 <ehird> so you're the reason this recession is happening
13:43:57 <ehird> oklopol: you may ask but it was going when you said that
13:43:59 <oklopol> totally
13:43:59 <ehird> remember
13:44:03 <ehird> there is no thought causality
13:44:18 <oklopol> ah.
13:44:18 <ehird> you have been acting to cause the recession since before it began, and the p in p-therefore-q that lead you to doing this was only thunk then
13:44:24 <ehird> see, it all ties together
13:44:40 <oklopol> (...i'm gonna escape now k?)
13:44:55 <ehird> define escape
13:45:06 <oklopol> "to read complex analysis"
13:45:12 <ehird> pfft.
13:45:16 <ehird> :P
13:45:26 <oklopol> escape the horrors of the physical world
13:45:34 <ehird> that's called suicide
13:46:19 <oklopol> yeah it's just that boring.
13:46:20 <oklopol> ->
13:48:55 <ehird> damn i could totally functionalise an os
13:49:15 <ehird> i mean ok im basically ripping off luke palma's dana wholesale, dependent typing, frp and all
13:49:19 <ehird> but shit.
13:49:56 <ehird> and combining it with ehirdOS = sexy time
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14:00:07 <ehird> hi sgeo
14:00:14 <Sgeo> Hi ehird and all
14:00:25 * ehird decides to break sgeo's brain
14:00:50 <ehird> I'm musing about a purely-functional (without even an IO monad) operating system with types that can access values.
14:01:47 <Sgeo> "types that can access values" needs clarification. Also, it's obvious that this is what I'm supposed to notice, but how is it supposed to do anything
14:02:09 <ehird> 1. Dependent types.
14:02:12 <ehird> 2. Magic, clearly.
14:03:51 <Sgeo> Magic, like the sort of magic that lets you jump to a point in space where the gravity is equal to where you're jumping from? (iirc)
14:03:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:04:06 <ehird> Hooray Ed stories.
14:04:44 <ehird> Sgeo: Dependent types let you do things like making array[3] fail *at compile-time* if array has less than 4 elements — without declaring it at any point, and with computation in-between.
14:04:54 <ehird> (Of course the programmer has to help the compiler along in some cases.)
14:05:26 <ehird> That's just one of the *applications*; what it *is* is a subtle matter and one I am in no non-sleep-deprived state to communicate.
14:05:55 * Sgeo is also sleep deprived right now
14:06:03 <Sgeo> There's supposed to be a meeting 5 minutes ago
14:06:05 <ehird> when did you last sleep
14:06:24 <Sgeo> I can't help think that they meant 12AM when they said 12PM
14:06:35 <Sgeo> Um, from 3 local time to 7 local time
14:06:55 <Sgeo> And that's been my approx. schedule for a while, but I tend to fall asleep from 9 to 3PM
14:06:56 <ehird> What time is it there now?
14:07:27 <Sgeo> There as in the timezone they were using? 12:06 PM. Local time: 9:06 AM
14:07:58 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpsN14TFy90 this music is incredible
14:08:34 * oerjan notes that googling for "hooray ed" brings up only things it is unlikely ehird was referring to...
14:09:05 <Sgeo> oerjan, try different words in that line
14:09:06 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?ed
14:09:19 <oerjan> i just did
14:09:20 <ehird> An excellent sci-fi ... well, I'd say novel, but it was serialised of a sort.
14:09:34 <ehird> (The tone of the first stories is misleading, btw.)
14:10:34 <ehird> oerjan: You'd probably like it, it has a quote about how all the characters are completely insignificant, stupid and irrelevant in the universe.
14:10:37 <ehird> That fits you. :P
14:10:47 <augur> sgeo -- that music IS incredible :o
14:11:36 <ehird> Sgeo: i woke up yesterday at uh around 2:30pm i'd guess
14:11:39 <ehird> 15:30 that is
14:11:42 <ehird> haven't slept since
14:13:10 <Sgeo> o.O
14:13:24 <Sgeo> Go to sleep then?
14:13:25 * oerjan thinks ehird has a horribly distorted impression of him
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14:13:31 <ehird> And wake up late at night?
14:13:35 <ehird> That's a dumb idea.
14:13:38 <ehird> oerjan: I was joking. :P
14:13:40 <Sgeo> Go to sleep at night then?
14:13:42 <ehird> Also, the quote doesn't really have that turn at all.
14:13:46 <ehird> Sgeo: I will, once it is night.
14:17:31 <oklopol> Sgeo: yeah that's pretty incredible
14:18:09 <Sgeo> Supposedly, it was ranked the best music on the Commodore 64, or something
14:19:22 <Sgeo> I can't find a source for that, actually, so
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14:20:07 <Sgeo> I think my source was a random YouTube video :/
14:20:51 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKssGfAtTP4
14:21:00 <oklopol> it was not perfect
14:27:52 <oklopol> yeah that wasn't very professionally done
14:29:09 * Sgeo is an SG-1 addict
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14:43:00 <ehird> Ilari: you rebooted.
14:45:30 <oerjan> they gave him the boot
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14:48:17 <Ilari> Yeah.
14:48:52 <Ilari> And had to fight with settings a bit after that.
14:51:25 <Ilari> And configured protocol 41 just for fun (the main trouble was lack of direct copy-paste from browser to rootshell).
14:51:40 <ehird> That's how I could tell.
14:52:08 <Ilari> I could have configured it without reboot (would had to rejoin, but...)
14:52:36 <ehird> Well, you said you'd do it when you rebooted, so.
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15:33:49 <ehird> sculpture chasm well-typedness
15:35:26 <ehird> argh augur isn't here
15:36:09 <Sgeo> Should I be on the Chrome Dev channel or the Beta channel?
15:36:09 -!- augur has joined.
15:36:20 <Sgeo> I <3 Extensions, so the normal one isn't an option
15:37:22 <Sgeo> ...thing says it's on Stable o.O
16:00:37 <ehird> Okay, it seems my system has so little RAM that the background of Konversation's tray icon's contextual menu is white.
16:00:44 <ehird> I think I'll start System Monitor and see what the fuck is up.
16:01:21 <ehird> Well that was useless.
16:01:31 <ehird> Xorg is CPU-hogging for some reason.
16:05:22 <Sgeo> ...Someone's teaching a math course with QBasic
16:06:02 <Sgeo> "A friend of mine who taught in [redacted] is teaching a math course that uses QBasic at [redacted] College. We're trying to find a compiler she can download and use with Windows XP but no luck - do you have any ideas?"
16:06:42 <pikhq> I suggest finding an old DOS disk and a DOSbox.
16:06:51 <pikhq> Or a saner language.
16:07:47 <ehird> QBasic works in XP.
16:07:55 <ehird> Perhaps even QuickBasic does.
16:08:49 <ehird> pikhq: So. A purely-functional operating system using FRP instead of imperative IO and dependent types. Perhaps total, too. Am I a functional programming nerd?
16:08:59 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, you are.
16:09:04 <pikhq> And that's okay.
16:09:30 <ehird> I'm special, just like everyone else.
16:09:36 <pikhq> XD
16:15:20 * Sgeo is in love with mywot.com
16:17:35 <ehird> You use the term "love" very loosely.
16:18:09 <pikhq> Well, you see, free love.
16:18:57 <ehird> Website polyamory!
16:22:03 <ehird> I'm starting to believe that Linux/X11 on the desktop really is a hopeless case now that my system's crawling just because I have 9 Firefox windows open with a few hundred tabs between them.
16:22:07 <ehird> The memory usage isn't even that high.
16:22:11 <ehird> This. Is. Not. Difficult.
16:22:18 <pikhq> ehird: ... That's really, absurdly sad.
16:23:33 <ehird> Yeah; X and Firefox are both using 5-30% of my CPU constantly.
16:23:35 <ehird> Each.
16:23:41 <ehird> For no reason.
16:24:13 <Ilari> Probably firefox is spewing lots of requests to X server for some reason?
16:24:31 <ehird> I should just go back to OS X and enjoy the smooth graphics and non-total-freeziness and nice fonts and deal with the proprietariness, inconsistency (not that there isn't a lot of that in the Linux world too) and flawed default applications.
16:24:37 <ehird> Ilari: Something like that.
16:24:45 <ehird> I suspect kwin is doing something retarded with the Firefox windows.
16:25:21 <Ilari> ehird: Does it happen with other WMs?
16:25:34 <ehird> Let's find out.
16:25:43 <ehird> ...wait, killing kwm will probably just kill all my windows.
16:25:45 <ehird> Stupid reparenting managers.
16:25:51 <ehird> Ilari: Don't know.
16:25:59 <ehird> *kwin, not kwm
16:26:23 <ehird> Ilari: I suspect the fact that kwin is compositing, and there are... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 firefox windows showing (all but one are just edges),
16:26:26 <ehird> is something to do with it.
16:26:34 <ehird> Something like it's drawing the entirety of all those windows or something.
16:27:12 <pikhq> Yeah, kwin is drawing all of those windows in an offscreen buffer and then rendering it onscreen.
16:27:20 <pikhq> That might do *something*.
16:27:28 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me when only "window manager" I could get to start with session was some terminal emulator. I had to attach debugger to it and make it execute some sane window manager...
16:27:38 <ehird> So if I maximise the Firefox window I'm actually using (and deal with the too-wide text), performance will improve some.
16:27:42 <ehird> That's just great.
16:27:47 <ehird> >_<
16:27:49 <ehird> I hate computers.
16:28:09 <ehird> Ilari: Did "wm &; disown; exit" not work?
16:28:37 <ehird> I seem to have got over the horrific-horrificness of sleep deprivation now.
16:28:40 <ehird> Ugh, it's dark already.
16:28:43 <ehird> I hate our short days.
16:28:55 <Ilari> Oh, and the terminal emulator didn't even work properly...
16:29:41 <ehird> xD
16:30:03 <ehird> What is it with Linux users and improbable software situations always solved by a method other than reinstalling :-)
16:30:24 <Ilari> Because reinstalling rarely solves anything...
16:31:32 <ehird> Sure it does if you messed up the packages and now your only WM is a terminal manager.
16:31:38 <ehird> I wasn't referring to the solutoin so much as getting into the situations
16:31:44 <pikhq> ehird: Because Linux users like doing crazy shit.
16:31:47 <ehird> I've never found myself in such a bizarre environment :)
16:32:20 <pikhq> The only crazy shit I've done recently has been "Oh shit, my package manager just broke. Time to install stuff via tar instead of with the package manager."
16:32:28 <pikhq> (I keep binary packages of everything on my system.)
16:33:34 <Ilari> For some reason window managers still don't work, but now I use .xsessionrc (has also the good side that one can put those various xmodmap & co commands in).
16:33:50 <pikhq> ... Window managers don't work?
16:33:57 <pikhq> Yeah, reinstall that.
16:35:19 <ehird> Ilari: just use .Xmodmap :P
16:35:30 <ehird> alternatively, use my OS.
16:35:32 <Ilari> ehird: And xmodmap settings are not the only ones...
16:37:53 <ehird> I wish the nice winter weather came with long days.
16:45:49 <ehird> I'm going to reboot back into OS X.
16:45:51 <ehird> It's just hopeless.
16:46:11 <ehird> I guess I can deal with using a proprietary OS until ehirdOS is invented. :P
16:46:52 * ehird tars up his source code done on this machine, uploads it
16:46:57 <ehird> (to access it in os x...)
16:46:59 <ehird> erm
16:47:00 <ehird> done on this partition
16:49:34 <ehird> Erm, so if gcc is the GNU Compiler Collection, is GCK the Gnu Compiler Kollection?!?!12.
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16:58:01 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:58:06 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
16:58:13 <ehird> Yeah, this is better.
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17:53:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> Erm, so if gcc is the GNU Compiler Collection, is GCK the Gnu Compiler Kollection?!?!12. <-- that sounds like it would be using QT at the very least.
17:53:54 <AnMaster> ehird: (for log reading) but why GCK? Where did you get the idea?
17:55:10 <fizzie> KKK, the Knu Kompiler Kollection.
17:56:58 -!- ehird has joined.
18:12:29 <ehird> i'm too busy admiring how smart my stolen ideas are to do anything with them
18:19:41 -!- ehird has quit.
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18:38:02 <uorygl> KDE Kompiler Kollection, of course.
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18:57:51 <ehird> 09:53:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> Erm, so if gcc is the GNU Compiler Collection, is GCK the Gnu Compiler Kollection?!?!12. <-- that sounds like it would be using QT at the very least.
18:57:51 <ehird> 09:53:54 <AnMaster> ehird: (for log reading) but why GCK? Where did you get the idea?
18:57:51 <ehird> It was a coded identifier for the URL for my ~/src from the Linux partition.
18:58:18 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
18:58:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what does that even mean?
18:58:57 <ehird> I'm booting back into OS X due to the general hopelessness of desktop Linux.
18:59:01 <ehird> I want to move my ~/src back over.
18:59:10 <ehird> I don't want to fuck with OS X drivers for ext4.
18:59:21 <ehird> So I zipped it and uploaded it to a file hosting site.
18:59:30 <ehird> That line includes the things I need to know to reconstruct the URL.
18:59:46 <ehird> That way, using mnemonics, I can find the URL just by looking at it, but nobody else can.
19:00:25 <SimonRC> heh
19:00:57 <ehird> AnMaster: It's like PGP except in my mind, basically.
19:01:16 <ehird> Like posting a PGP encrypted-to-myself message publicly, to be precise.
19:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hah
19:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also very smart
19:02:15 <ehird> Why thank you :P
19:02:36 <ehird> The relevant file ID after the file host *is* there in plaintext, though, it's just spread out across words.
19:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, how many of the words encode info and how many are to just make it grammatically correct?
19:02:54 <ehird> Few, almost all.
19:02:59 <AnMaster> ah
19:03:10 <ehird> To be honest, I don't care whether you read my code or not, so I'll tell you that the prefix is filebin.ca.
19:03:37 <ehird> Since you can upload a file there to see the length of identifiers, it'd be pretty simple to try all likely combinations from there.
19:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, btw interesting that you found some well working combo from it
19:04:10 <AnMaster> as in, filename-wise
19:04:13 <ehird> Yes; I was lucky.
19:04:43 <ehird> Then again, I could have just gone "fp45 f09w23 g90 n4n ovij 9d" and remembered "second and second-last".
19:05:23 <ehird> Anyway, I wish Linux/X11 was tolerable enough for my heavy programming and web browsing workload, but it is, alas, not. The hideous performance when I had a lot of Firefox windows open confirmed that.
19:05:40 <ehird> So it looks like until I implement ehirdOS, I'm Apple's bitch. Which saddens me.
19:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, finding something for http://filebin.ca/hryhfj would be way harder
19:06:07 <Ilari> X11 is hideously difficult to use correctly...
19:06:54 <AnMaster> ehird, is it case sensitive that filebin.ca?
19:06:54 <ehird> Ilari: Yeah, with a lot of manual setup and using a lightewight WM *maybe* it could handle ~10 Firefox windows with many tabs each.
19:07:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Try it and see.
19:07:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well my test one got all letters and all lower case
19:07:22 <ehird> Ilari: But, really, I just don't like Linux enough for that.
19:07:32 <AnMaster> ok case sensitive
19:07:36 <ehird> All Unix-likes are shit, and all existing UIs are shit
19:07:44 <ehird> So I should just pick whichever one is the least fuss
19:07:51 <ehird> As far as I can tell, that's OS X.
19:08:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I think they're all lowercase, though.
19:09:08 <AnMaster> meh tried a few simple permutations, not worth more job
19:09:45 <ehird> It's hrmgck.
19:09:50 <ehird> Erm
19:09:53 <ehird> ermgck
19:10:11 <ehird> What's the correct ELispese for "bind this key globally because the default binding is stupid"?
19:10:15 <ehird> I want to set DEL to delete-char
19:10:23 <ehird> Not delete-backward-char
19:10:45 <ehird> Ugh
19:10:54 <ehird> Emacs is reading backspace and delete as one char
19:10:57 <ehird> That's retardifuckede
19:11:03 <ehird> *retardifucked
19:14:07 <ehird> global-set-key
19:14:08 <ehird> got it
19:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that tarball of your code was small
19:20:28 <ehird> Indeed; it's just one or two days.
19:20:44 <AnMaster> ehird, just a diff?
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19:20:50 <AnMaster> okay it wasn't that small then.
19:20:56 <ehird> No; I lasted one or two days with Linux.
19:21:12 <ehird> I didn't work on any of my OS X projects; the tarball is completely self-contained.
19:21:24 <ehird> (And yes, I do code that much in ~3 days.)
19:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yet your laptop (did you give that idea up?) was to be running linux?
19:22:37 <ehird> AnMaster: well, linux isn't viable for me as it has just demonstrated for me
19:23:13 <ehird> with its hideous, hideous failure at simple tasks like "synchronised flash audio/video" (I know it's not Linux's fault), "10 Firefox windows, each having a lot of tabs" and "non-smudgy font rendering that doesn't have horrible colour fringes".
19:23:19 <SimonRC> which distro?
19:23:27 <ehird> I honestly thought I'd be fine with it, but it let me down. So there.
19:23:52 <ehird> SimonRC: Kubuntu; indeed, it had an edge on the font rendering test due to its inclusion of the legally-dubious bytecode hinter.
19:24:01 <ehird> I could have made it more workable by Rolling My Own Shit.
19:24:01 <SimonRC> Where *can* you have that many tabs open?
19:24:10 <ehird> But I don't see Unix as a viable OS, just a kludge that works for now.
19:24:12 <ehird> *a kludge
19:24:16 <SimonRC> hm
19:24:21 <SimonRC> what is viable?
19:24:26 <ehird> So I pick the Unix that takes the least amount of working to... work.
19:24:33 <AnMaster> ehird, "synchronised flash audio/video" <-- hm I had no issue with that even when using flash (swfdec iirc)
19:24:34 <ehird> SimonRC: good; worthy; the way forward; usable; etc
19:24:44 <SimonRC> not what I meant
19:24:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Adobe.
19:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, no idea
19:25:00 <SimonRC> I mean, which OSes are good?
19:25:07 <ehird> SimonRC: None.
19:25:11 <ehird> Plan 9 and Oberon both come close.
19:25:19 <ehird> ehirdOS is good, but it's vaporware.
19:25:35 <AnMaster> ehird, as for fonts, well why not write something that make it looks like it should, obviously your work would be of great use to everyone else on linux then
19:25:39 <ehird> Although I think it's a massive enough project to count as my life's work already...
19:26:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I just explained why. I don't consider Unix a good OS, so I pick the Unix that works with the most stuff and does the tasks I want with me doing the least.
19:26:06 <SimonRC> if you are going to take that long about it, it will be out of date by the time you finish :-(
19:26:09 <ehird> If I cared about Unix, I would try and make it better.
19:26:31 <ehird> SimonRC: It's so heretical that I don't find that too likely. Especially as systems design has been in limbo ever since Unix.
19:27:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... okay
19:27:57 <SimonRC> which OS allows you to have 10 firefox windows with hundreds of tabs each without problems?
19:28:25 <ehird> Not hundreds of tabs each; hundreds of tabs in total.
19:28:35 <SimonRC> ok
19:28:39 <ehird> And, well, I use Safari on OS X and it handles that as smoothly as you could expect.
19:28:47 <AnMaster> also I have about 50 tabs in general when using firefox
19:28:48 <ehird> I imagine Firefox on OS X isn't *that* inferior.
19:28:55 <AnMaster> 50-80 probably
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19:29:02 <AnMaster> ehird, try it out on OS X then
19:29:02 <SimonRC> I think the Safari->Firefox change is the one that matters
19:29:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I almost never close tabs and click links like crazy
19:29:13 <ehird> and almost never click links without opening a new tab or windo
19:29:16 <ehird> s/$/w/
19:29:22 <ehird> SimonRC: Well, let me know when Safari is released for Linux
19:29:28 <ehird> All the WebKit X11 browsers suck
19:29:28 <SimonRC> heh
19:30:01 * ehird tries to figure out how to get the % position in current file in the emacs modeline
19:30:13 <AnMaster> ehird, never opening links in same tab apply almost all the time to me too
19:30:34 <AnMaster> also you need a tab gc
19:30:45 <ehird> My "ideal" browser would open every single link in a new "tab"; all middle-click would mean is "...and don't focus this tab after creating it."
19:31:05 <SimonRC> sounds good
19:31:10 <soupdragon> #english
19:31:13 <ehird> Tabs would be in a horizontal tree structure to the side, so that it's linear, but if I open more than one link from a page, that's shown underneath that page.
19:31:14 <soupdragon> dammit
19:31:19 <ehird> It would also serve as the history.
19:31:29 <ehird> Basically, old enough tabs would be purged from cache and clicking them would go back to them.
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19:32:02 <ehird> If you don't want a tab any more but want to keep it in the history you could banish it, which would presumably just shove it up to, say, the start of today until tomorrow.
19:33:54 <SimonRC> so you smoothly integrate tabs, history, and bookmarks?
19:34:12 <ehird> Ooh, good idea; bookmarks would just be starred tabs.
19:34:13 <ehird> And yeah.
19:34:24 <ehird> That's basically what I use tabs for; going back in my chronological history.
19:35:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> Tabs would be in a horizontal tree structure to the side, so that it's linear, but if I open more than one link from a page, that's shown underneath that page. <-- iirc IE8 groups by which tab they were opened from. I have had no choice but to use IE8 on some lab computers at university.
19:35:08 <AnMaster> not quite what you wanted
19:35:22 <AnMaster> they are coloured in different groups
19:35:31 <AnMaster> (the tabs themselves that is)
19:35:34 <ehird> Oh, so that's what those colours are.
19:35:44 <ehird> The closest to what I want is the Firefox extension Tree Style Tabs or whatever it's called.
19:36:12 <ehird> That does the horizontal linear tree thing, but only for tabs, not integrated history/bookmarks/tab expiry/scrolling (well, it might do scrolling with a scrollbar, dunno (arrows don't count as scrolling))
19:37:23 <AnMaster> ehird, wait how did you say the bookmarks would be integrated into it?
19:38:08 <ehird> [19:33] SimonRC: so you smoothly integrate tabs, history, and bookmarks?
19:38:08 <ehird> [19:33] ehird: Ooh, good idea; bookmarks would just be starred tabs.
19:38:23 <AnMaster> ah I see
19:39:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make it write-only. As in, once a tab is open it is always remembered (possibly you can archive it to hide it, but you can't actually delete it)
19:39:35 <ehird> Well, mutable history is nice for... hiding things.
19:39:46 <ehird> Of course it wouldn't have an easy shortcut.
19:42:38 <AnMaster> ah well yeah good point
19:42:44 <ehird> hrm
19:42:51 <ehird> if I have foo | bar in emacs, how do I get
19:42:53 <ehird> foo | bar
19:42:57 <ehird> ---------
19:42:58 <ehird> quux
19:43:03 <ehird> C-x 2/3 don't do it
19:48:58 <ehird> :/
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19:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, RET and repeat dash several times? ;P
19:59:44 <ehird> I'm talking about split frames. :|
20:00:35 <AnMaster> oh, I thought you wanted automatically inserting underlining with dash for a line
20:00:53 <AnMaster> and I thought "meh, that usually isn't too much work in a README, it isn't worth automating"
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20:17:32 <ehird> soupdragon: i was almost going to read tmopi but then i realised i'm really tired and so you must wait another day
20:17:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:24:29 * ehird decides to wile away some time by playing Armagetron Advanced really badly
20:30:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you notice 17 and 0 has a tiny overlap. that's 4 images overlaping that one point
20:34:25 <ehird> eh, too sleep dep'd to play even acceptably
20:34:54 <ehird> bloody reaction times
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20:38:15 <oerjan> * oerjan thinks ehird has a horribly distorted impression of him
20:38:32 <oerjan> i'd like to clarify that. mainly because i'm in a horrible mood.
20:39:14 <oerjan> while i _do_ on occasion think that the universe is a horrible, disgusting place and that it have been a huge improvement if it didn't exist at all...
20:39:34 <ehird> ...which is, incidentally, absolutely *not* the sentiment in the ed stories
20:39:57 <oerjan> that does not in any way mean that i like to read fiction (or non-fiction) that _reminds_ me of this.
20:40:11 <oerjan> since, after all, i don't particularly _like_ to be in a horrible mood.
20:40:36 <ehird> actually in the ed series it's more humility than self-loathing :P
20:40:38 <oerjan> *would have been
20:41:17 <ehird> also, I like the universe and consider any desires you may ever have for it not to exist to be an abhorrent affront on my rights.
20:41:20 <oerjan> i haven't got to that part yet. just to the first jump to jupiter at the moment...
20:42:12 <oerjan> very well. in my horrible, but slightly less so moods you may do an s/it/i/ in there...
20:42:52 <ehird> apparently you don't believe that enough to actually act on it.
20:43:21 <ehird> :p
20:43:31 <oerjan> (1) i'm horribly lazy (2) i don't really believe death is sufficient to escape it
20:43:59 <ehird> chances of you spontaneously escaping the universe = low
20:44:03 <oerjan> (3) in my more cheerful moods i think my more horrible moods are full of shit
20:44:06 <ehird> chances of you spontaneously escaping the universe after dying = higher
20:44:15 <ehird> oerjan: i would tend to agree
20:46:16 <oerjan> yeah but there are ways to view it that could imply suicide actually makes things _worse_. if the mind somehow survives, you no longer have a body to take your mind off your thoughts after all...
20:46:40 <ehird> I would have guessed your views were closer to transmigration than an afterlife.
20:48:05 <oerjan> those are not necessarily conflicting, it depends on how many options there are to transmigrate to :)
20:51:06 <ehird> Transmigration is such a nice word to waste on a stupid concept :(
20:51:18 <soupdragon> heh
20:51:37 <oerjan> "Some psychic mediums of a variety of religious persuasions (including Hinduism and Wicca) and some Spiritualists believe in transmigration of the soul but hold that reincarnation is an anomaly if it occurs at all."
20:51:49 <ehird> soupdragon: ok,
20:52:01 <ehird> that was a moment of synchronicity... with oerjan in the channel, talking about other such bullshit concepts
20:52:04 <ehird> is that metasynchronicity?
20:52:24 <oerjan> i don't understand what the heck they're talking about... they seem like the same idea to me.
20:52:51 <ehird> (soupdragon = person who bugs me about reading TMoPI; name of TMoPI's vapourware sequel = The Transmigration of Prime Intellect; we were talking about transmigration)
20:53:13 <ehird> (this is synchronicity; oerjan believes in synchronicity, we were talking about general-metaphysical-sorta-stuff which synchronicity falls under)
20:53:14 <soupdragon> the light pours in on me
20:53:17 <ehird> how many meta levels is that
20:53:26 <soupdragon> meta^2 = meta
20:53:45 <oerjan> eek
20:53:54 <oerjan> soupdragon cannot have read GEB
20:54:02 <oerjan> (even i got to that part)
20:54:02 <soupdragon> no I haven't
20:55:07 <oerjan> there's a part where there's a djinn granting wishes. but he doesn't grant meta-wishes
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20:55:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I didn't really have a fixed-degree increment there; I just turned the camera a bit.
20:55:38 <ehird> G.E.B. is a thoroughly entertaining, mind-expanding book that is wrong about almost everything.
20:55:41 <ehird> I love it
20:55:46 <ehird> s/$/./
20:55:46 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:56:18 <oerjan> so you cannot ask him for more wishes. however there is a meta-djinn which you can, but you cannot ask him for more meta-wishes...
20:56:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
20:56:21 <oerjan> iirc
20:56:45 <ehird> GOD Over Djinn.
20:57:17 <soupdragon> ehird aren't you worried about people reading it and not realizing it's nonsense?
20:57:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm down at 0.52 avg and 4 max (but that last one is a line)
20:57:25 <ehird> It's not nonsense.
20:57:29 <ehird> I just disagree with him.
20:57:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you want to compare: http://zem.fi/~fis/cs.jpg -- http://zem.fi/~fis/csv.jpg
20:57:51 <ehird> He's very intelligent and has a great understanding of many things, I just disagree with his conclusions and speculations. Most of them, anyway.
20:58:38 <oerjan> and then a main character asks the hierarchy of djinns to grant him a wish not in the hierarchy, leading to a paradox
21:01:58 <oerjan> <ehird> I would have guessed your views were closer to transmigration than an afterlife. <-- actually somewhat, on the grounds that if there were an eternal afterlife i should already be in it, since it is hideously unlikely for me to be in the first 100 years or so of an infinite existence
21:02:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, err what is that latter one?
21:02:28 <AnMaster> oh day
21:02:51 <oerjan> btw this argument can also be applied to the fermi paradox i think...
21:02:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the thing with blue cloth in the middle
21:03:15 <fizzie> The latter was taken during daytime, and it's from that two-minute video clip with the N900.
21:03:21 <AnMaster> ah
21:03:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, that explains why it is fuzzy to put it mildly
21:03:32 <ehird> oerjan: if you have no memory, feelings, or anything inherited from the years you do not remember, in what sense can you say they are you?
21:03:51 <ehird> (resorting to an abstract type "Soul" whose implementation is opaque is verboten)
21:04:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, the former one is much better quality. What are the advantages of the video clip variant
21:04:27 <ehird> It's a video, presumably.
21:04:29 <oerjan> ehird: there are times when i only consider the present moment to be me. those are usually when i'm in a horrible mood.
21:04:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes...
21:04:46 <ehird> oerjan: i think what you need to do is get a kitten.
21:04:50 <ehird> they are warm and fuzzy.
21:04:56 <oerjan> and thinking, "this moment should not exist dammit, no matter how good things get in the future"
21:05:08 <oerjan> i think that would be a disaster, ehird
21:05:23 <mycroftiv> did someone mention the fermi paradox?
21:05:27 <oerjan> yeah
21:05:36 <ehird> oerjan: fine a bunny rabbit then, i have two
21:05:44 <ehird> if you get the right breed they're like kittens without the sociopath
21:06:00 <ehird> they just sit there, dumbfounded at the universe, cuddlable.
21:06:38 <mycroftiv> oh wow, we are talking about God over Djinn, over Djinn, over Djinn, over Djinn
21:07:40 <oerjan> mycroftiv: it's an argument i (and probably others) have against the idea that humanity could be the only intelligent species and conquer the universe. because if that were so, it would again be hideously unlikely for us to be _here_, just as civilization is getting up to speed
21:07:49 <oerjan> i'm sure there are counterarguments thouhg
21:07:52 <oerjan> *gh
21:07:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not sure it has that many advantages; it's perhaps faster to take since you just have to turn recording on, then wave the phone around for a while.
21:08:21 <oerjan> *to be _here_ at this particular moment
21:08:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: The cloth is just a decoration; but the actual thing behind it is a space for book-reading or groupwork or whatever. There's another one too behind the stairs in the middle.
21:08:57 <oerjan> both those examples assume that this moment is somehow a random one from all of time
21:09:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: It would probably also be less horribly blurry if I had that "select sharp frames" tool.
21:09:20 <mycroftiv> oerjan: there are a ton of statistical arguments for/against anthropic type principles - which one exactly are you referring to?
21:09:34 <mycroftiv> i know the fermi paradox itself well
21:10:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: Still, the resolution won't get that much better, since video is recorded at 848x480. Still frames get a lot more pixels.
21:11:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
21:11:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you classify sharpness
21:11:25 <AnMaster> I mean, is there any tools at all for it
21:11:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: There are different metrics for it, yes.
21:11:45 <oerjan> mycroftiv: this argument i reinvented myself, i've read some things on wikipedia later but i don't recall what it's officially called
21:12:24 <fizzie> See for example "Measure of image sharpness using eigenvalues", Information Sciences: an International Journal, Volume 177, Issue 12 (June 2007).
21:12:38 <mycroftiv> oerjan: cool, i know there are quite a few sharp statistical arguments with various implications, can you spell it out explicitly? i didnt quite track your single sentence statement above
21:13:33 <mycroftiv> it sounds like you are basing it on the well-known principle that it is, almost by definition, more likely that we are observing a statistically 'average' outcome than an unusual one ?
21:13:44 <oerjan> yeah i guess
21:14:13 <fizzie> I think enfuse also has some sharpness measures when it decides how to blend the images -- after all, one of the intended use cases for enfuse is to automatically blend a focus stack -- but I'm not sure you can use that for comparing the sharpness of non-aligned images.
21:14:49 <oerjan> one counterargument which i may have read is of course that any observer will be inclined to consider their own time special somehow
21:15:53 <mycroftiv> oerjan: still trying to understand the claim - could it be summarized as "it is likely there are numerous intelligent species in roughly parallel circumstances as humans, due to the observational data collected by humans being presumably a typical data point" ?
21:15:56 <oerjan> turning the antropic principle against the same argument, i guess
21:16:19 <soupdragon> I wish I had read this whole discussion
21:16:26 <mycroftiv> soupdragon: me too!
21:16:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh yes good point about enfuse
21:16:38 <oerjan> mycroftiv: yeah that sounds about right
21:17:00 <mycroftiv> oerjan: i think this analytical split is hugely important and not settled at all - between the 'copernican' and 'anthropic' interpretations of how we need to contextualize our particular observational status
21:17:41 <mycroftiv> the copernican principle that 'we are not the center of the universe' vs the anthropic principle that 'we cant assume we are statistically typical, because if we were not atypical (life) we would not be able to make observations in the first place'
21:19:04 <oerjan> mhm
21:19:44 <mycroftiv> for isntance there are a lot of very scary statistical arguments indicating that civilization is probably 'almost over' in terms of the span of years it occupies
21:20:05 <oerjan> yeah i've seen some of those
21:20:17 <mycroftiv> under the theory that we as individuals are probably about in the middle of the overall number of humans to live, and based on population, there will be a lot fewer years in the future because of much higher population
21:20:37 <mycroftiv> in other words, if there are 10 billion people "behind you" in history, and 10 billiion people "ahead of you" in history, that means history only lasts another century or so
21:22:06 <mycroftiv> similar arguments can be made about the likely lifespan of the earth's biosphere relative to the life of the solar system, but those are bit more involved - barrow & tipler have the best material on this still, so far as i know, even though their book is kinda controversial
21:22:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could in theory align all those frames before
21:22:19 <AnMaster> then use enfuse for sharpness merging?
21:23:27 <fizzie> Yes, in theory. I could do that just by selecting "aligned images" instead of "blended panorama" and then manually running enfuse on it.
21:24:02 <oerjan> mycroftiv: i also think this can tie into the simulation argument somehow, if we are a simulation of the kind of simulation that it is popular to simulate...
21:24:24 <oerjan> s/simulation/civilization/, second to last
21:24:35 <fizzie> Not sure how well enfuse performs when given more than 340 images.
21:24:58 <oerjan> then we _would_ be typical
21:25:04 <mycroftiv> oerjan: yes, these kinds of statistical arguments can lead to very weird places very fast, im not sure anyone takes them incredibly seriously
21:25:16 <ehird> omega point is bullshit isn't it?
21:25:23 <oerjan> and we are living in interesting times
21:25:25 <mycroftiv> ehird: you mean teihlard de chardin?
21:25:26 <soupdragon> omega point??
21:25:32 <ehird> mycroftiv: tipler's omega point
21:25:33 <mycroftiv> teilhard that is
21:25:34 <ehird> you said tipler
21:25:48 <mycroftiv> oh, the Final Anthropic Principle? yeah that is almost certainly nonsense, but its very cool nonsense
21:25:49 <ehird> soupdragon: i couldn't even tell you, it's vague as fuck
21:25:53 <ehird> mycroftiv: no
21:25:54 <ehird> omega point
21:25:55 <ehird> google it
21:26:08 <soupdragon> my god I haev no idea what anyone is talking about
21:26:13 <soupdragon> what subject is this
21:26:14 <soupdragon> ?
21:26:16 <ehird> ffffffff
21:26:18 <ehird> someone said tipler
21:26:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: that *IS* the Final Anthropic Principle
21:26:20 <ehird> tipler did omega point
21:26:23 <ehird> i criticise omega point
21:26:24 <ehird> fin
21:26:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: but thats what tipler's omega point IS!
21:26:46 <ehird> argh fine
21:26:47 <ehird> your mom
21:26:48 <mycroftiv> final anthropic principle == tipler omega point
21:27:08 <ehird> i'm too tired to understand existence, you should satiate yourself with my pseudo-quantum thought process bullshit from before
21:27:18 <ehird> i'll even compile it into a paste
21:27:44 <soupdragon> wtf
21:27:46 <mycroftiv> soupdragon: topic of oerjan and my and ehird's semi-recent comments is the Anthropic principle and statistical arguments about life in the universe connected/contrasted
21:27:55 <ehird> soupdragon: i was sleep-deprived and talking about ridiculous things on purpose
21:29:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: http://pastie.org/781173.txt?key=ffbkhcwqrjsvw6b531kka
21:29:58 <ehird> absorb the nonsense
21:30:24 <soupdragon> ehird what the fuck are you smoking quarks
21:30:32 <ehird> *absolutely*
21:30:35 <ehird> I was just sleep deprived dude
21:30:37 <mycroftiv> wow, and I thought some of *my* speculations were a bit on the metaphorical side sometimes
21:30:42 <ehird> in that space of time just after an all nighter
21:30:42 <soupdragon> did you study quantum physics
21:30:45 <ehird> when you become totally delusional
21:30:46 <ehird> and crazy
21:30:47 <soupdragon> or did just read penrose...
21:30:48 <ehird> and are aware of it
21:30:53 <ehird> before you become semi-coherent
21:30:58 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Not sure how well enfuse performs when given more than 340 images. <-- no idea either. But 40 or so made my laptop with 2 GB ram swap trash a bit
21:31:02 <AnMaster> err 4 GB
21:31:03 <ehird> soupdragon: as i said, i was aware of my delusionalness, and merely entertaining them
21:31:06 <AnMaster> on the other hand
21:31:09 <AnMaster> they were much higher res
21:31:11 <ehird> it's like a joke, except there's no ha-ha, just crazy
21:31:16 <soupdragon> this is disgusting
21:31:27 <ehird> haha i offended soupdragon by being silly
21:31:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, as in, 16 bit per channel tiffs from *.mrw
21:31:29 <ehird> today is an interesting day
21:31:35 <AnMaster> (which is the raw format of my camera)
21:31:50 <soupdragon> actually you offended me by saying I was the sort of person who thinks this stuff is real
21:31:56 <ehird> soupdragon: I did not
21:31:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, the remapped images are all 1950x1079-sized; of course they're mostly black, but I'm not sure that helps. In the name of science I'll try it, anyway.
21:31:59 <soupdragon> you did
21:32:01 <ehird> please quote where I said that
21:32:03 <ehird> thx
21:32:05 <soupdragon> no
21:32:08 <soupdragon> it's when I used quantumEd
21:32:15 <ehird> oh, that.
21:32:17 <soupdragon> you thould I was some kind of pseudoscience idiot
21:32:27 <soupdragon> and I never had once even talked about quantum physics
21:32:29 <ehird> that's only because you were saying things that implied you were
21:32:44 <soupdragon> no you just decided to make fun of my nick
21:33:05 <ehird> I was just making an inference from both the ridiculousness of what you were saying, and the common occurrence of raping-quantum-physics by quacks
21:33:37 <ehird> be offended if you want, your call
21:33:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, they aren't mostly black, they are mostly transparent
21:34:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, if they are output as tiff then yes
21:34:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's about the same thing; it still needs some cleverness to work well. I didn't toggle on the "output cropped images" flag for Nona, just in case it'd cause problems.
21:34:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, but enfuse and enblend treat transparency specially, which is why you should use tiff there. probably deflate
21:34:47 <mycroftiv> as a meta comment on this conversation, I think its wonderful that within the cultural community of this irc channel, "being stereotyped as the kind of person who believes pseudoscientific gibberish phrased with QM terminology" is the kind of thing that actually happens
21:35:32 <ehird> "Nigger." "Faggot." "Jew." "Quantum mysticist." "Too far, man."
21:35:48 <mycroftiv> ^
21:35:50 <fizzie> Hrm, that was interesting: "enblend: No space left on device - enfuse: an exception occured - enblend: error writing to image swap file."
21:35:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: v
21:36:05 * soupdragon <
21:36:10 <ehird> >
21:36:15 <fizzie> I was wondering why the process memory size stopped increasing after a hundred images or so.
21:36:33 <fizzie> -m megabytes Use this much memory before going to disk (default=1GiB)
21:36:35 <fizzie> Funny flag.
21:36:39 <mycroftiv> maybe it grabs a big buffer and then manages its own memory?
21:37:12 <fizzie> There also does not seem to be any option to specify what disk it uses; I guess it uses the five-gigabyte /tmp.
21:39:07 <mycroftiv> ehird: in re your journey to the dark side of quantum mysticism - perhaps if you try to reformulate all that in terms of actual information processing on different many-worlds branches, you might get somewhere? id throw out any use of mind-related terminology and look at the entropy of information processing
21:39:23 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'd rather not
21:39:29 <ehird> for one, it violates causality entirely
21:39:51 <ehird> as it involves not only communication between many-worlds branches, but such future communications affecting the present
21:40:03 <ehird> both of which are incredibly unlikely.
21:40:19 <mycroftiv> well, causality i dont care about - but if it violates thermodynamics, as Eddington said, (paraphrased) you're doomed
21:40:29 <fizzie> Meh; with some sort of modern 12-gigabytes-of-RAM machine this would all fit in it.
21:41:18 <ehird> it worries me that my long-term survival plan culminates in a battle with entropy
21:41:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw for that pano of yours I was working on, you do have some parallax in the trees. Apart from that almost none that is noticeable. And those trees. Hard to actually see it between all the twigs going everywhere. But since you don't use enfuse for it (rather you use enblend) I believe you won't get noise reduction from overlaps. I wonder if you can use enfuse for it.
21:43:42 <AnMaster> <fizzie> -m megabytes Use this much memory before going to disk (default=1GiB) <-- swapping, but not OS
21:43:48 <AnMaster> also how much space did it use
21:43:51 <AnMaster> and on what device
21:43:58 <AnMaster> (as in, how much space was there to use on it)
21:44:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: <fizzie> There also does not seem to be any option to specify what disk it uses; I guess it uses the five-gigabyte /tmp.
21:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah noticed that just now
21:44:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you could use a chroot with everything except tmp just bind mounted into it. and tmp pointing to somewhere much larger.
21:46:44 <Ilari> Or namespaces...
21:46:56 <ehird> Ilari: Plan 9 namespaces, you mean?
21:46:57 <ehird> If so, <3
21:47:38 <Ilari> Dunno... But each namespace has its own set of mounts.
21:48:26 <oerjan> ehird: I just realized something... any sufficiently advanced simulation argument is indistinguishible from spirituality ;D
21:48:36 <ehird> Sounds like Plan 9 namespaces to me; ask mycroftiv.
21:48:47 <ehird> oerjan: yes, the simulation hypothesis is unfalsifiable and unscientific
21:48:55 <oerjan> um no
21:49:00 <ehird> um yes.
21:49:16 <ehird> a simulation is indistinguishable from a regular universe (intervention is just exceptions to the laws of physics)
21:49:16 <oerjan> oh wait
21:49:25 <ehird> since it is indistinguishable, "we are living in a simulation" is unfalsifiable
21:49:33 <ehird> therefore, the simulation hypothesis is unscientific
21:49:52 <mycroftiv> with a little bit of work, you can actually do per process namespaces in linux, not just plan 9 - but you have to use/be root, and you have to make your own tool to start a new namespace
21:50:05 <oerjan> ehird: and yet if there was a way to travel between simulations, it would be idiotic do doubt it
21:50:09 <oerjan> *to
21:50:23 <ehird> oerjan: yes, that would be a worrying failure of rationality
21:50:25 <mycroftiv> the linux kernel has had per process namespaces since 2.4.19 but sadly absolutely nobody has even noticed, much less built anything to make use of the capacity. sad.
21:50:27 <ehird> however, i find it rather unlikely
21:50:30 <ehird> per occam's razor
21:50:35 <ehird> so i don't worry about it too much
21:50:46 <oerjan> well with the current public evidence, sure
21:51:10 <ehird> and the universe could have been created 2 seconds ago with the current public evidencce
21:51:12 <ehird> occam's razor says no
21:51:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh, 125M was left free on /tmp after I told enfuse to use 2.5G of RAM. (And still it swaps, bleh.)
21:51:46 <Ilari> The reason why one has to be root is that it wouldn't make much sense otherwise as mounting is priviledged and that being able to replace stuff in /etc is dangerous.
21:51:59 <ehird> Ilari: plan 9 does it for every single process safely.
21:52:02 <oerjan> anyway my point was more to the idea that a universe with most of the trappings of a spiritual worldview would not necessarily be unscientific, and could be technologically produced
21:52:47 <ehird> that is true. but most spiritualists would be deeply upset by that
21:53:01 <ehird> to them it isn't proper spiritualism if it isn't truly unexplainable
21:53:06 <ehird> *by that
21:53:06 <oerjan> heh
21:53:19 <ehird> which is an incredibly worrying form of anti-intellectualism
21:54:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, why was pitch for image 4 unchecked?
21:54:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it didn't use those 125 MB RAM?
21:54:45 <AnMaster> err
21:54:47 <AnMaster> disk
21:55:06 <AnMaster> well as long as it didn't actually use it all and succeeded it is all good isn't it?
21:55:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you do know you need special parameters for contrast stacks right? some hardmask thing + turning off defaults weightings and turning on another one
21:56:14 <AnMaster> forgot details, see panotools wiki, page is called (iirc, and not sure about caps) "enfuse reference manual"
21:56:50 <fizzie> Yes, well, I sort of deduced something sensible-looking from the enfuse manpage already.
21:57:05 <fizzie> It ran out of disk space during the middle, though; but at least there was enough space to load all images. "Yay."
21:57:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD
21:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, I believe it may space usage need may grow exponentially or something for this, it wouldn't surprise me as contrast stack merging was very very much slower than normal enfuse usage.
21:58:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it was very noise sensitive
21:58:46 <ehird> poop
21:58:50 <ehird> the best word.
21:58:55 <ehird> a placeholder for any occasion
21:58:57 <ehird> and some unoccasions.
21:59:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it was best to first merge several photos to reduce noise, then for each of those produced use that for the contrast merging
21:59:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it uses TMPDIR env-variable to select the place, so at least I can point it at some other disk easily enough.
22:00:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
22:00:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, just never ever let it swap trash on a single core system, for some reason dual core systems are much more responsive even when swap trashing in my experience
22:01:44 <AnMaster> the disk in the single core system was rated for higher RPM too.
22:06:11 <fizzie> enfuse's "sharpness" seems -- as far as I can tell, anyway -- to be mostly based on local contrast measures, which isn't anything too fancy. Well, we'll see. This time I put in "-v" too to make it a bit more noisy.
22:06:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange thing: same *.pto file loaded in hugin on desktop and laptop. Laptop has a slightly newer version of hugin/enfuse+enblend/panotools. Clicking stitch on desktop made use of enfuse. Not so on laptop
22:08:07 * oerjan wonders why the heck his wrist watch has the date set to 22nd...
22:09:16 <fizzie> I'm not so sure these video images can be made to align well enough that enfuse's contrast-based blending would make sense. Though at this point I'd be happy just to get an output file.
22:09:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't it sync properly?
22:09:21 <AnMaster> check the ntp settings on it
22:09:22 <oerjan> :D
22:10:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, how much disk space is it using?
22:10:36 <ehird> oerjan: i'm not sure AnMaster was joking
22:10:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it could be worth trying it on a small section. Say 20 images around the middle
22:10:43 <AnMaster> ehird, -_-
22:10:49 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I were
22:10:53 <ehird> *was
22:10:57 <AnMaster> though
22:11:07 <AnMaster> it would be *awesome* to ssh to your clock to check it's ntp settings
22:11:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Something like 6 gigabytes so far.
22:11:09 <AnMaster> just awesome
22:11:10 <oerjan> ehird: one can never be sure
22:11:20 <oerjan> actually it's been doing strange things before, my rational guess is that the adjustment knob is sometimes coming loose
22:11:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, not more?
22:11:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I had to restart it to twiddle some parameters, so it hasn't really run for very long now.
22:11:57 <oerjan> (the irrational ones involve synchronicity and spooky signs, of course)
22:12:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yeah you said it was historical just a few days ago. Forgot that. Also, does it know about leapyears?
22:12:24 <AnMaster> or for that matter, that some month have only 30 days?
22:12:25 <oerjan> it doesn't know about _months_ :D
22:12:35 <oerjan> nope
22:12:58 <oerjan> it does know about weekdays though, which is an improvement over my previous watches
22:13:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, then it is easy, you forgot to reset it for months that have only 30 days. It must been quite some time ago you looked at the day for that to have happened
22:13:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
22:13:19 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
22:13:25 * Sgeo wishes the Chrome WOT extensions actually blocked problematic sites from loading
22:13:32 <fizzie> I have a 31-day-assuming clock too. Fortunately half-out-pulling the adjustment know makes it adjust the day but not the time.
22:13:37 <oerjan> i am in fact quite sure that i corrected it after new year
22:13:46 <oerjan> mind you, it may have been on the 2nd
22:13:59 <ehird> i'd totally make an ntp clock
22:14:06 <ehird> i bet none of the computo-clocks use ntp :|
22:14:23 <ehird> the cool thing would be that it would be one big ring, and the display would be transparent
22:14:39 <ehird> so the time would actually be overlaid seamlessly onto what looks like plain glass!
22:14:49 <ehird> dunno where the mechanics would go, but :P
22:14:56 <fizzie> Engadget Mobile has blogged about a couple of watch-phones lately; and phones in general are going smart. It's only a matter of TIME (eh, eh?) before clocks do NTP too.
22:15:18 <Gregor> My watch gets its time from the network.
22:15:24 <ehird> Gregor: yes but it sucks
22:15:25 <soupdragon> I've got a q
22:15:29 <ehird> Gregor: no 3g internet for doing it
22:15:33 <Ilari> Aren't there "radio controlled" clocks?
22:15:37 <fizzie> Wasn't there some sort of implant clock with a LED-based display pretty close to the skin, so that you just have glowing numbers in your wrist? Or was this in fiction?
22:15:38 <ehird> Ilari: UNACCEPTABLE
22:15:43 <ehird> omg
22:15:47 <ehird> you could have an eternal september clock
22:15:50 <soupdragon> in all the alien based sci-fi I saw.. the 'aliens' are pretty much just people but with blue skin
22:15:52 <ehird> <3
22:16:05 <soupdragon> so are there any good ones which are more uh.. realistic?
22:16:12 <ehird> soupdragon: does the name start with an a and end with a vatar
22:16:29 <Gregor> Well, if they don't have blue skin, they have pointy ears.
22:16:36 <Gregor> Or they're just humans that are mysteriously from a distant galaxy.
22:16:41 <Sgeo> There's one person who always rates sites good because "Alexa said "Most visited website""
22:16:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Bleh; it crashed with "enfuse: an exception occured - enblend: unable to create image swap file."; this time there was no mention of a full disk, though.
22:16:58 <soupdragon> in ringworld, the pearsons puppeteers are kinda alient
22:17:14 <ehird> i think heinlein did some kind of alien shindig that was turned into a movie, maybe
22:17:26 <soupdragon> oh it doesn't have to be a film
22:17:27 <ehird> dunno man. dunno.
22:17:40 <ehird> soupdragon: well then heinlein definitely did some things with aliens in them :P
22:18:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, where do you want me to upload the pano. Since it is your source data.
22:18:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, the tiff is a bit large so doing a jpg at high quality. Exported jpg from the tiff using gimp
22:19:19 <AnMaster> 6,3Malvarhc_3.jpg
22:19:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't have any own site atm.
22:19:29 <oerjan> soupdragon: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarfishAliens
22:19:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, thus it must be some filebin or imagebin
22:19:55 <soupdragon> Nonhuman psychology!! this
22:19:58 <fizzie> Er, well, you can do pretty much whatever you want with it. I could take a .jpg export and the corresponding .pto file for my own disk, though; you probably know more about file-sharing sites than I do.
22:20:05 <oerjan> (MWAHAHA)
22:20:09 <fizzie> (Since I don't know anything about them.)
22:20:48 <soupdragon> wow this tvtropes site is good
22:20:54 <ehird> soupdragon: see you in 2 hours
22:21:06 <ehird> you may want to physically destroy your mouse to shorten this timespan
22:21:07 <soupdragon> oh no
22:21:13 <soupdragon> I don't want to get into Hard Sci-Fi
22:21:14 <ehird> and also disable any keyboard shortcuts that could lead to links opening
22:21:19 <soupdragon> I just know that would be the beginning of the end
22:21:30 <ehird> tv tropes is about everything, not just scifi
22:21:32 <ehird> and you are stuck there now
22:21:33 <ehird> sorry.
22:21:36 <oerjan> dammit i clicked on a link myself
22:21:37 <ehird> i hope you didn't have plans
22:21:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD. Well I would use ompload. since I have a command line tool for it
22:21:50 <Gregor> Dec 18 23:31:27 <Lawlabee> I'd like to see a sci-fi about us failing to find even the remotest similarity to some clearly-intelligent alien race, and ultimately failing to communicate in any useful way.
22:22:01 <Gregor> Dec 18 23:33:11 <Lawlabee> It should be about how we're so wildly dissimilar, that even thinking about communication is almost meaningless.
22:22:25 <ehird> Cells? Bah! Cells are primitive earth technology.
22:22:32 <ehird> And why would you separate your... "bodies", you call them, like that?
22:22:36 <soupdragon> cells are wonderful
22:22:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for the pto I can send it over too. Still I aim to find a way to use enfuse for it properly, it seems while enfuse was used on desktop, it was used once per image. So enfuse was a identify transformation. It even printed warnings about this.
22:22:46 <ehird> And what's the usefulness of rationality if you have a trillion "gut feelings" to go on?
22:22:50 <soupdragon> we're fractal with cells
22:22:54 <ehird> Says the planet of the blobs.
22:23:03 <soupdragon> cells ==> organs ==> people
22:23:05 <ehird> Or, would say, if it could say.
22:23:07 <soupdragon> self similarity
22:23:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, for the image: http://omploader.org/vMzlzdA
22:23:10 <oerjan> Gregor: i haven't read/seen it myself, but isn't that part of the point of Solaris?
22:23:35 <fizzie> Annoying; enfuse's documentation says -f could be used to manually select the output size, but it doesn't seem to do anything. (Or at least the specs reported by -v list the "full" size anyway; it might crop the final output, which is pretty useless.)
22:23:38 <ehird> Solaris (1961), by Stanisław Lem, is a science fiction novel about the ultimate inadequacy of communication between human and non-human species.
22:23:40 <ehird> APPARENTLY
22:23:40 <Gregor> oerjan: Haven't read/seen/heard of it, unless you're referring to the operating system.
22:23:48 <Gregor> lawl
22:23:53 <soupdragon> Gregor I want to see that too
22:24:27 <ehird> "is covered with an ocean that studies indicate actually is a single, planet-sized organism, occupying the surface as an ocean."
22:24:32 <ehird> Fucking thing stealin' mah idae
22:24:35 <ehird> *idea
22:24:44 <ehird> Fuck you Stanisław Lem and your retrostealing
22:24:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, and a diff for it: http://sprunge.us/DLJC (the pto)
22:24:51 <ehird> Good thing you're fucking DEAD now.
22:25:13 <soupdragon> hey guys what if the internet is consciouss??
22:25:23 <soupdragon> woah
22:25:29 <ehird> the internet is intelligent in some sort of sense, but it's very retarded
22:25:43 <ehird> because the components are malignant; disagreeing, not communicating in the same way, etc.
22:25:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, enfuse docs you mentioned, hm what?
22:25:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you have issues with it still
22:26:33 <fizzie> Well, no issues in the sense that I cropped the aligned source images in Hugin instead.
22:27:00 <oerjan> Gregor: i also read on wikipedia about his novel Fiasco, while they do manage a _little_ communication it does end in disaster because of misunderstandings iirc
22:27:12 <oerjan> i think Lem may have been big on the subject
22:27:31 <fizzie> But "enfuse -h" says "-f WIDTHxHEIGHT[+xXOFFSET+yYOFFSET: Manually set the size and position of the output"; yet (according to -v) it uses the bounding box deduced from the coordinates in the files.
22:27:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah so you are just testing on a small part now?
22:27:49 <ehird> Sŧanɨsław Łem
22:27:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, also did it work very well?
22:28:21 <fizzie> It is not ready yet, so can't say.
22:28:27 <soupdragon> what do you think about Sapir-Whorf?
22:28:50 <soupdragon> I heard some people saying it's just nonsense but I tohught it was true
22:28:53 <oerjan> augur: please maim soupdragon for us
22:28:54 <ehird> soupdragon: widely decredited
22:29:03 <ehird> soupdragon: it is the sort of thing that sounds like it should be true
22:29:05 <soupdragon> so you think it's just rubbish?
22:29:09 <ehird> and so the meme propagates that it is
22:29:14 <ehird> soupdragon: it has been shown to be basically entirely false.
22:29:26 <ehird> see wikipedia for more info iirc it had a lot of links
22:29:29 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
22:30:01 <oklopol> solaris was fun
22:30:04 <soupdragon> did you read the story about the Piraha ?
22:30:19 <soupdragon> they don't have words for numbers so they did bad in the counting test
22:30:26 * ehird yawn
22:30:29 <soupdragon> isn't that evidence of Sapir-Whorf
22:30:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: At least Hugin's "output remapped images" thing was clever enough to skip completely transparent images; now I have "only" 293 images of 526x383 pixels.
22:30:38 <oklopol> not really
22:30:45 <soupdragon> or maybe they just didn't sit counting coins for 7 years of their life
22:30:46 <ehird> it is a single data point of evidence for one instance of sapir-whorf
22:30:55 <ehird> and even then tenuous
22:31:07 <oerjan> soupdragon: i vaguely recall the piraha story isn't exactly watertight either
22:31:10 <ehird> soupdragon: you'd better stop talking about sapir-whorf before augur brutally murders you btw :P
22:31:23 <soupdragon> well I better read up on this a lot because I thought for some reason sapir-whorf was pretty much a fact
22:31:25 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:31:36 <oerjan> ehird: well, he hasn't responded to my request to do so yet...
22:31:43 <soupdragon> hey I just ask because I want to learn, I am malleable
22:31:45 <ehird> he lies in the shadows
22:31:45 <uorygl> You seem to be assuming that the reason the Piraha did badly on the counting test was that they had no words for numbers.
22:31:46 <ehird> waiting
22:31:47 <ehird> WAITING
22:31:47 <oklopol> it's evidence that if you don't know a way to count stuff, you won't be able to, i'm not sure that's what sapir-whorf is about
22:31:51 <ehird> ...
22:31:52 <ehird> WAITING
22:32:00 <ehird> ...
22:32:02 <soupdragon> uorygl, sort of, but I pointed out it might be because of another reason
22:32:08 <ehird> BANG
22:32:11 <ehird> You are dead.
22:32:13 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:32:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would you get completely transparent images?
22:32:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: The ones that are completely outside the cropping region I selected in Hugin.
22:32:43 <uorygl> soupdragon: might be, sure. So I guess you've found some evidence for it.
22:32:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: vacuum
22:32:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah. So you aren't testing on the full thing then any longer?
22:33:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, -_-
22:33:14 <fizzie> Well, I'll try the full thing if the small thing yields any sensible results.
22:33:32 <augur> soupdragon: sapir-whorf is pretty much anti-fact
22:33:40 <soupdragon> really how come?
22:34:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: And graah. Even though it says 'Input image "small0337.tif" RGB UINT8 position=729x697 size=526x383' for all images, then it goes "Output image size: [(0, 0) to (1255, 1080) = (1255x1080)]" even if I try to use "-f 526x383".
22:34:02 <augur> except cognitive linguists like to say its fact because they have this real lack of braincells
22:34:04 <augur> what do you mean how come
22:34:12 <ehird> oh snap the augur arrives
22:34:13 <soupdragon> how can you disprove it
22:34:16 * ehird popcorn
22:34:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that matter?
22:34:27 <ehird> soupdragon: is your argument "it's not disprovable"?
22:34:31 <ehird> if it is, then that's self-defeating
22:34:37 <ehird> unfalsifiable statements are unscientific rubbish to be ignored
22:34:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, you could manually crop it later?
22:34:43 <ehird> see, e.g. god.
22:34:49 <augur> soupdragon: a better question is what evidence is there in favor of it at all
22:34:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It takes long and uses a lot of space even at the 1255x1080 size. But curiously without a "-f" option it uses the small size, heh-heh.
22:34:55 <augur> and the answer is there is none
22:34:55 <uorygl> So history is to be ignored?
22:34:55 <soupdragon> ehird no I am not even arguing either side
22:35:09 <ehird> soupdragon: posing an argument for side x != being on side x
22:35:12 <ehird> you have certainly done te former.
22:35:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, So I got remapped images and enfused them. Made my laptop swap trash -_-
22:35:36 <AnMaster> but it worked
22:35:36 <soupdragon> quiet ehird, adults are talking
22:35:44 <ehird> *the
22:35:48 <uorygl> You can't perform an experiment demonstrating that George Washington wasn't female.
22:35:50 <ehird> soupdragon: yawn.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, looks like slightly less noise in the overlaps
22:36:00 <ehird> "i haven't heard that one before"
22:36:07 <soupdragon> how can you not understand this
22:36:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ahem, well: http://zem.fi/~fis/fused.jpg
22:36:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, wow :D
22:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, look at that
22:36:23 <soupdragon> I don't have any kind of argument for either side because I'm a beginner and I just want to learn about this
22:36:39 <ehird> AnMaster: trippy
22:36:40 <soupdragon> you make guesses and observations and try and get a hold on something when you learn about it
22:36:50 <ehird> AnMaster: can i have accompanying drugs?
22:36:50 <soupdragon> this is like, the most basic thing ever
22:36:53 <augur> soupdragon: anyway, theres no evidence for it. its just conjecture on the part of some whacky linguists
22:36:55 <ehird> soupdragon: listen
22:36:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, not very well aligned were they? as in less than 0.2 pixels max?
22:36:59 <soupdragon> augur, okay
22:37:01 <ehird> i'm not accusing you of taken sides
22:37:02 <ehird> but listen
22:37:19 <uorygl> I guess I should figure out what the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis actually is before saying much about it.
22:37:20 <ehird> 14:30:04 <soupdragon> did you read the story about the Piraha ?
22:37:21 <ehird> 14:30:19 <soupdragon> they don't have words for numbers so they did bad in the counting test
22:37:21 <ehird> 14:30:29 <soupdragon> isn't that evidence of Sapir-Whorf
22:37:30 <ehird> that *is* an argument for sapir-whorf, even if you do not personally take it as fact
22:37:34 <ehird> and even if it is read as a conditioinal
22:37:38 <ehird> that is not a statement about you
22:37:38 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> or maybe they just didn't sit counting coins for 7 years of their life
22:37:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I believe using enfuse made that vertical further away part of the triangular wall look antialiased XD
22:37:46 <ehird> soupdragon: yes, and that is a separate, opposing argument
22:37:48 <ehird> it is a description of the nature of the object
22:37:50 <soupdragon> okay
22:37:50 <ehird> not a description of you
22:37:58 <ehird> so stop taking it as a declaration of your personal beliefs
22:38:08 <ehird> i'm just saying that you clearly are posing arguments, on both sides
22:38:12 <soupdragon> ohhh I see
22:38:13 <soupdragon> okay sorry
22:38:18 <augur> soupdragon: regarding the piraha, the question is not whether or not they have numbers, ok
22:38:18 <ehird> all i was doing is discounting one, thereby helping you learn
22:38:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't think they're alignable well with just pitch/yaw/roll and global view/barrel parameters, and even optimizing that took a long long time. The image also sort-of makes sense if you think how it's made: each image pixel comes for the highest-contrast source image, so the one that has most detailed structure in it.
22:38:21 <ehird> no probs
22:38:44 <augur> no, they have no number words, and no, they dont do good at numerical tasks, right
22:38:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah
22:38:51 <augur> but they also dont have a NEED for numerical tasks
22:39:02 <augur> so is it that their language has no numbers, therefore they suck at numerical tasks
22:39:10 <uorygl> Huh. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as given by Wikipedia seems obviously true.
22:39:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, you need very very well aligned for that feature to work. Steady tripod recommended and such
22:39:13 <soupdragon> yes I see what you mean
22:39:15 <augur> or that their environment is such that they have no need for numbers, and therefore dont have them?
22:39:29 <augur> uorygl: there are a variety of versions of the S-W hypothesis
22:39:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, the trees look rather nice though
22:39:42 <uorygl> Which, essentially, is "People's vocabularies affect their thinking."
22:39:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the url of the original?
22:39:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: It might be better just to look at global full-frame sharpness and use that to select a reasonable set of overlapping images; unfortunately I don't think I know of a ready-made tool for *that*. (After all, the amount of motion-blur in a single image is pretty much the same for all pixels of it.)
22:39:57 <augur> all of the versions that are even remotely true are trivial and not related to language in any interesting way
22:40:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/csv.jpg
22:40:10 * uorygl nods.
22:40:15 <augur> for instance, the one you just cite, uorygl, is a pointlessly uninteresting version
22:40:27 <ehird> fizzie: damn i so fucking wish your building really had all these curves
22:40:29 <fizzie> "cs" as in "Computer Science building", and "v" as in "from video".
22:40:29 <ehird> would be just so beautiful
22:40:36 <oklopol> i don't believe my vocabulary affects my thinking
22:40:38 <augur> because it essentially says nothing more than "stuff people have to pay attention to on a regular basis becomes more salient to them as a result"
22:40:53 <augur> well big deal, right?
22:40:58 <augur> thats just what we expect from brains
22:41:03 <augur> not a fucking revolutionary insight
22:41:19 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, and the curves should also change depending on what direction you are looking at them from.
22:41:22 <soupdragon> but I was thinking I should learn another language so that I could be better at thinking
22:41:31 <augur> and even worse, uorygl, is that thats not the whole of it
22:41:48 <uorygl> oklopol: think about balkanization.
22:41:54 <augur> the RESEARCH suggests that peoples vocabularies _only affect their thinking when they're thinking for language_
22:41:57 <ehird> fizzie: well no i wouldn't require that; but you could have that curvy-cs-metal-stop-you-falling-thing shape and also the outer curvy-on-a-slant-plus-the-ampitheater-curves-around-it-the-other-way thing
22:42:06 <ehird> (the slope thing could just be actual building underground)
22:42:13 <ehird> (rather than a very bad foundation for a building)
22:42:14 <uorygl> >.>
22:42:15 <ehird> anyway if you did that
22:42:15 <augur> that is, if they have to express something in a linguistic mode, then the words they have available to them affects how they think about the problem
22:42:17 <ehird> so fucking sweet
22:42:22 <ehird> 55 architecture prizes and a duck
22:42:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes agreed about full frame
22:42:36 <oklopol> uorygl: i don't exactly believe two groups bigger than 10 people can actually have anything against each other
22:42:40 <augur> but in a NON-linguistic mode (lets say, a situation where they have to point to something) vocabulary size has no effect
22:42:42 <oklopol> unless they are retards
22:42:56 <soupdragon> you know way back when people did mathematics using words
22:43:01 <ehird> oklopol: apart from general position statements, you mean?
22:43:07 <soupdragon> instead of x^2 and all that
22:43:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, on the other hand you can see how people moved in that "trippy" one
22:43:10 <ehird> like "people who are anti-skub" vs "people who are pro-skub"
22:43:17 <oklopol> well right
22:43:17 <ehird> soupdragon: yes it sucked
22:43:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is rather interesting
22:43:57 <fizzie> Yes. I'd like to compute the full-size image for that, but it's so memory-intensive.
22:44:02 <soupdragon> since the notation got better it was easier to do this stuff, like it make things clear and explicated all the important things
22:44:17 <oklopol> obviously if they have actual personal differences, i just don't believe groups over 10 people can have any sort of opinions as a group, unless the group was formed from people with those beliefs.
22:44:24 <soupdragon> e.g. associativity is visible in 1 + 3 + 4 where as, it's not in (+ 1 (+ 3 4))
22:44:27 <oklopol> obviously this is not true, but i don't care.
22:44:57 <soupdragon> and you think that the human language is not like that? like say you had some rubbish language where everything was really difficult to phrase
22:45:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: I should've gone to the "local image descriptors" (think the SIFT keypoints used in autopano-SIFT-C, except new research from 2007-2009) seminar course they have in this period; then I could run all these panorama things on our cluster computers, since they'd be related to studies.
22:45:18 <uorygl> Neat, Moore's paradox.
22:45:21 <soupdragon> couldn't there be some much better one that you can really think in, and it would help you make arguments
22:46:15 <augur> soupdragon: what are you talking about?
22:46:21 <uorygl> Less Wrong, a rationalistic community, has developed a sort of rationality jargon.
22:46:23 <augur> people dont think in language
22:46:24 <augur> :|
22:46:41 <ehird> uorygl: There is not that much Less Wrong jargon.
22:46:44 <ehird> Akrasia; that's about it.
22:46:55 <oklopol> soupdragon: mathematical notation doesn't really make anything except simple algebraic manipulation easier, if you're solving an interesting problem, notation is mostly just for communication, and is not how you actually solve the problem.
22:46:56 <soupdragon> augur, I do! (sometimes)
22:46:57 <ehird> uorygl: Also, be careful. Less Wrong is a community of people who identify as rationalists, not a rationalistic community.
22:46:59 <oklopol> at least for me
22:47:04 <augur> soupdragon: no, you dont.
22:47:12 <uorygl> Signaling, Pascal's mugging, one-boxing...
22:47:12 <ehird> Putting unwarranted faith in their rationalism is not a good idea.
22:47:26 <ehird> Signaling is Robin Hanson's, i.e. Overcoming Bias.
22:47:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed. btw about enfuse for outdoors pic, will upload in a sec. Just comparing them. Here is a teaser (before/after): http://omploader.org/vMzl0MQ
22:47:29 <ehird> One-boxing, granted.
22:47:53 <augur> soupdragon: you should read pinker, he has some very good arguments why the SWH is in general worthless
22:48:08 <uorygl> Crisis of faith, tabooing, map, territory...
22:48:23 <soupdragon> augur, any particular ones to look for ? http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/index.html
22:48:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is of course more noise in areas with no or less overlap
22:48:45 <augur> all of them are good, but language instinct and stuff of thought are probably better for this issue
22:48:54 <augur> stuff of thought has a whole chapter deconstructing the issue
22:49:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, and some stuff looks anti-aliased in a rather suspect way.
22:49:15 <augur> i have the book if you want a copy
22:50:20 <uorygl> ehird, do you have much to say about the Less Wrong crowd?
22:50:33 <ehird> uorygl: Much to say in what sense? And why?
22:51:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, opinion?
22:52:15 <uorygl> I'm curious about your opinions of them.
22:52:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and where was the night time one?
22:52:43 <fizzie> Of the CS building? cs.jpg is that one.
22:52:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have more of an opinion there than to agree that it's less noisy when enfused.
22:53:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: well no i wouldn't require that; but you could have that curvy-cs-metal-stop-you-falling-thing shape and also the outer curvy-on-a-slant-plus-the-ampitheater-curves-around-it-the-other-way thing <-- the first thing, do you mean the banister (iirc?)
22:53:07 <ehird> uorygl: I guess I have a bit to say, but I'd probably want to do it in /msg to avoid multithreading this place even more.
22:53:11 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah
22:53:14 <ehird> curvy metal
22:53:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vMzl0NA
22:53:36 <AnMaster> ehird, with those sudden jumps in it due to parallax?
22:53:40 <soupdragon> :(
22:53:43 <ehird> Anshaddap :P
22:53:46 <soupdragon> I don't want to miss out on the less wrong talk
22:53:54 <ehird> fine then
22:54:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be cool though :)
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22:54:09 <ehird> #inwhichehirddivulgeshisfewopinionsonlesswronginahideouslyverboselynamedchannel
22:54:19 <ehird> darn, too long
22:54:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I was about to mention that
22:54:28 <fizzie> Misread ampitheater as "armpit heater". (The line broke at the middle t there.)
22:54:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
22:54:39 <ehird> #iwedhfoolwiahvnc
22:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also the armpit theatre *is* curved
22:55:03 <AnMaster> not the same way
22:55:05 <AnMaster> but it still is
22:55:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is now it's official name
22:55:44 <AnMaster> ehird, #iwedhfoolwiahvnc <-- did you notice that "fool" in there ;P
22:55:59 <AnMaster> s/;/:/
22:56:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, in the night time one, that person there does have a corona if you see what I mean
22:57:00 <ehird> I wed H. Fool W.; I... ah, VNC.
22:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
22:57:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: That one is made from enblending 30 source images, each source image being generated from three exposures with align_image_stack + enfuse with default options.
22:58:08 <AnMaster> ah
22:58:10 <AnMaster> that explains it
22:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also do you see those antialiased walls in http://omploader.org/vMzl0NA
22:58:45 <fizzie> 0.25s, 0.5s and 1s shutter times, it seems.
22:58:50 <AnMaster> since it is progressive it may take a white to see it. also you need to zoom past 200 percent
23:01:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway over all I think it is way better than the enblended one due to less noise. Also it seems to have been corrected for vignetting already somehow. Not sure where and when
23:02:08 <soupdragon> <metacollin> Actually, people who code in java think like assholes, and people who code in everything else don't. There, I just proved Sapir-Whorf
23:02:17 <soupdragon> (he was joking)
23:02:38 <augur> it is however true, happenstantially.
23:04:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you look closely at cs.jpg, you can see a ghost, also. (It's there on the third -- uppermost -- floor, just coming out of the last mostly-visible door on the long corridor/balcony/walkway on the left side.)
23:05:36 <ehird> soupdragon: Surely he means ruby
23:06:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, err?
23:06:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, in the further or the closer end?
23:07:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: In the far end; the closer end would be "first", not "last". At least for my intuition.
23:07:34 <oklopol> clearly the programming language you're coding in affects the way you think about the problem, but that's only because all you're doing is translating it into the language
23:07:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, the one at the very end? well no I can't
23:08:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, not the very end of the corridor if you mean the doors that are directly next to the far brick wall; but the last visible door that goes to one of the rooms on the left side. There's a very vaguely person-shaped shadow-looking thing that sort of looks like it's coming out of the door.
23:08:50 <oklopol> well, not all, but most or programming is just that, translating thoughts into a crappy language.
23:09:13 <oklopol> or at least that's the reason i don't program much nowadays
23:09:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, that thing that looks like a darker, filled y=-x^2 curve overlayed?
23:10:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: A bit like that, yes. I can see a head there above it, but maybe that's just because I've seen the source images.
23:10:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly
23:10:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, the details on the wall are clearly visible through him/her
23:11:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: See http://zem.fi/~fis/i009e0.jpg and ...e1.jpg and ...e2.jpg.
23:11:38 <fizzie> He
23:11:40 <oklopol> fizzie, AnMaster: what are you doing?
23:11:48 <fizzie> 's in e0 and e2, but not e1, so it ends up being a bit translucent.
23:12:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's a large section, why so much parallax issues with such a zoomed out image?
23:12:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, panoramas. What else?
23:13:17 <oklopol> if there are multiple conversations at once, i often accidentally start ignoring the less interesting one
23:13:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, I meant "what else" as in, what else would fizzie and me be talking about that involves images
23:13:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: Possibly a bit suboptimal alignment. I got tired listening to the awfully loud fan noises the computer makes when it's actually, you know, computing things.
23:14:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
23:14:10 <oklopol> you could be talking about something more specific
23:15:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah my computer has a constant speed fan. And my laptop can compute heavily on both cores without fan speeding up very much
23:15:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and gpu remapping crashed nona for me
23:16:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: It crashed nona for me too.
23:16:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, like this?
23:16:24 <AnMaster> gpu shader program compile time = 0.2
23:16:24 <AnMaster> nona: GL error: Framebuffer incomplete, incomplete attachment in: /build/src/hugin-2009.2.0/src/hugin_base/vigra_ext/ImageTransformsGPU.cpp:708
23:16:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and "please report bug"? Well since you already hit this I guess you reported a bug already ;P
23:16:58 <AnMaster> and since we have the same gpu model, no need for me to do it then
23:17:37 <ehird> I wonder if AnMaster reports all the bugs he finds in software.
23:17:40 <ehird> Certainly not for Perl.
23:18:06 <fizzie> Something like that; I didn't report anything, though. The list of working hardware at the panotools wiki wasn't especially long.
23:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well I couldn't figure out how. There was no way to do it on that bug tracker
23:18:33 <AnMaster> ehird, or if there was, please provide the link to the page with the form for it
23:18:45 <ehird> How to report bugs
23:18:45 <ehird> Bugs in Perl 5 -- use perlbug
23:18:45 <ehird> — http://rt.perl.org/perlbug/
23:18:49 <ehird>
23:18:50 <ehird> http://perldoc.perl.org/perlbug.html
23:19:36 <AnMaster> as I said, I did create an account on that website. Are you saying you can only use a command line tool.
23:19:55 <ehird> I was pointing you to the part of the website that links to a page telling you how to report Perl 5 bugs.
23:20:07 <AnMaster> well then, if I remembered what the bug was any longer I would report it now that proper information has been provided
23:20:18 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't get that page after logging in for some reason
23:20:26 <ehird> Because you're in the RT interface, then.
23:20:33 <ehird> Presumably you would then report bugs using RT's bug reporting interface.
23:20:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and I was assuming it worked like other bug trackers
23:20:44 <ehird> It does.
23:21:02 <ehird> Perhaps web-based submissions were disabled for Perl 5 in lieu of perlbug.
23:21:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> Presumably you would then report bugs using RT's bug reporting interface. <-- no such functionality as far as I could find
23:21:13 <AnMaster> perhaps
23:21:19 <ehird> Perhaps you should have looked harder.
23:21:24 <ehird> BugZilla is a bitch to use, too.
23:21:32 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't know about principle of least surprise
23:21:44 <ehird> I'm sorry, have you ever used BugZilla?
23:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed, but at least there is a huge "file bug" thing iirc
23:21:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes plenty of times
23:21:58 <AnMaster> for gentoo, for mozilla, for kernel.org
23:22:02 <ehird> Exactly. And that's the only reason you don't vomit every time you use it.
23:22:17 <ehird> Its interface is abhorrent; I'd much rather one hard-to-find link than a horrible, horrible form after that link.
23:22:42 <AnMaster> yes it's a pita, it was to begin with as well. Still it wasn't too hard to find "enter a new bug report" on http://bugs.gentoo.org/
23:22:46 <AnMaster> very very visible isn't it?
23:22:50 <AnMaster> in the link list
23:22:51 <ehird> #perl
23:22:55 <ehird> Complain ↑
23:23:00 <ehird> Just like submitting a bug report
23:23:07 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
23:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't vomit on perl's bug tracker. It seemed nice. Just a lack of filing bugs feature made me confused.,
23:23:36 <AnMaster> confused*
23:23:41 <AnMaster> err fail
23:23:45 <AnMaster> s/.,/./
23:23:55 <AnMaster> wait
23:24:04 <soupdragon> Kenneth E. Iverson, the originator of the APL programming language, believed that the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis applied to computer languages (without actually mentioning the hypothesis by name). His Turing award lecture, "Notation as a tool of thought", was devoted to this theme, arguing that more powerful notations aided thinking about computer algorithms.
23:24:12 <AnMaster> /^s/s/\./\\./
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23:24:52 <AnMaster> soupdragon, what is that hypothesis about?
23:24:55 <ehird> Also, it took me a good 30 seconds to find the enter new bug report link on http://bugs.gentoo.org/.
23:25:02 <ehird> But then I am sleep-deprived.
23:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I would say it would take a non-sleep-deprived ehird 15-20 seconds
23:25:26 <AnMaster> still I spent minutes at the perl bug tracker
23:25:30 <AnMaster> still,*
23:25:34 <ehird> Then I guess you're meant to use perlbug.
23:25:41 <ehird> It is linked *above* the "yo login to RT" link, after all.
23:25:46 <AnMaster> yes I guess so
23:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also I logged in *first* before reading all the details on the page
23:26:17 <ehird> Well, don't do that.
23:26:18 <AnMaster> and not mentioning after that breaks the principle of least surprise for someone used to other bug trackers.
23:26:20 <ehird> It's a gateway page.
23:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, hard to know isn't it ;P
23:26:35 <ehird> "Principle of least surprise" is often used as a synonym for "I don't like it".
23:26:37 <ehird> For instance, in this case.
23:26:41 <AnMaster> and yeah I will use perl bug in a bit, if you remind me what the bug was
23:26:43 <AnMaster> since I forgot that
23:26:48 <ehird> Something about VMS or something.
23:26:53 <ehird> Some spacing, issue, or something.
23:26:55 <ehird> Grep the logs or something.
23:26:59 <AnMaster> hm good idea
23:27:00 <ehird> It's when I did my horrible perl shebang
23:27:01 <ehird> So grep @REM
23:27:11 <AnMaster> ehird, did you get it to work properly btw?
23:27:13 <ehird> *Hopefully* we've never talked about bat files before that.
23:27:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I never tested it.
23:27:25 <ehird> I think it would have almost worked.
23:27:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? not even on *nix?
23:27:37 <ehird> But I never bothered to totally complete it.
23:27:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope.
23:27:42 <ehird> The laze is strong within me.
23:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, also now you made me wonder about if we talked about *.bat before...
23:27:50 <AnMaster> too lazy to check though
23:27:57 <ehird> It'll come up in the grep :P
23:28:02 <ehird> Oh wait, you have that weird-ass CD system
23:28:06 <ehird> Nevermind
23:28:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and they are lzma compressed. That takes some time. Older ones are bz2 which is insanely slow
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23:28:37 <AnMaster> brb
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23:45:48 <soupdragon> any more good books on omega point?
23:46:01 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point#Science_Fiction
23:46:13 <soupdragon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point#Science_fiction
23:48:57 <soupdragon> I thought singularity was omega point :/
23:49:03 <soupdragon> turns out that singularity is something else
23:57:20 <Pthing> they're variations on the same dumb idea
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