00:02:21 -!- cpressey has left (?). 00:12:53 Does anyone know a command that's like echo + cat? 00:13:06 specifically, it can append or prepend to standard output 00:16:09 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 00:24:17 echo | cat 00:24:25 echo foo | cat - /dev/hda 00:26:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:30:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:33:30 in bash, i think cat - `echo whatever` works 00:33:39 er wait 00:34:07 cat - <(echo whatever) may have been it 00:34:39 anyway there is some syntax for inserting the output of one command as a file in another 00:35:09 <<<`foo` 00:35:12 I believe 00:35:16 var TiredPerson = new { Name = "Sgeo" }; 00:35:22 in any case, I just switched to perl 00:36:01 * Sgeo is irrationally addicted to C# 00:36:09 bad 00:37:19 var coppro = (from chatter in CSharpHaters select chatter).First(); 00:38:00 lol 00:39:04 * Sgeo may end up installing Visual Studio so that he can easily use SQLite 00:40:35 ... 00:40:42 The syntax is a pipe :P 00:40:46 echo foo | cat - bar 00:41:02 Gregor: fail 00:41:13 you cannot pass the _original_ stdin to cat that way 00:41:28 You can't pass the original stdin to cat your way. 00:41:31 You'd have to do something like 00:41:33 what I want is a command like "append foo" that output foo+stdin 00:41:38 sure you can 00:41:38 without using backticks 00:42:10 coppro: Wait, so you just want cat foo - 00:42:22 oerjan: <(bleh) overrides stdin 00:42:27 Gregor: no 00:42:37 because that outputs the content of the file `foo` 00:42:43 oerjan: You'd have to specify an input FD, then convince cat to read from that fd (/proc/self/fds/bleh) 00:42:45 Gregor: in that case <() is not what i meant 00:42:47 I just want "foo+(whatever came through stdin)" 00:42:57 Ahhhhhhhh, OK 00:43:23 In that case, (echo foo; cat) :P 00:43:45 Gregor: bash has a syntax for creating named pipes with the output of a given command, and putting the _name_ of that pipe in an outer command 00:44:02 oerjan: Ah, then I am unaware of that syntax. 00:44:11 it may be that i remembered <() wrongly for it 00:44:50 seeing as i haven't used it in years, myself 00:46:02 no, <() was correct 00:46:40 BTW, the pipe is only viewable by the process that bash invokes 00:46:54 Process substitution is the term used 00:47:23 "Process substitution is supported on systems that support named pipes (FIFOs) or the /dev/fd method of naming open files. It takes the form of <(list) or >(list). 00:47:23 process substitution doesn't work when the command feeds the filename to a second command 00:47:26 " 00:47:42 e.g. if that command is a shell script 00:47:49 hm true 00:48:49 um wouldn't that only apply if the second command tried to access it after it has been deleted? 00:49:14 I don't think so 00:49:36 surely /dev/fd looks different to each process? 00:49:47 oh maybe 00:49:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:50:05 the named pipe thing should still work? 00:50:18 $ cat `echo <(ls)` 00:50:19 cat: /dev/fd/63: No such file or directory 00:50:52 SimonRC: that doesn't count anyway, because echo obviously finishes before cat opens the file 00:51:01 darn 00:51:31 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:51:57 -!- coppro has joined. 00:52:28 oh well, sounds brittle anyhow 00:53:03 ah, you can't read from it twice 01:13:09 -!- MissPiggy has quit. 01:23:04 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:45:22 -!- augur 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AnMaster_ has joined. 13:43:02 -!- Ayeraw has joined. 13:43:02 -!- adu has joined. 13:43:02 -!- cheater3 has joined. 13:43:02 -!- augur has joined. 13:43:02 -!- zeotrope has joined. 13:43:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:43:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 13:43:02 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:43:02 -!- olsner has joined. 13:43:02 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 13:43:02 -!- ineiros has joined. 13:43:02 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 13:43:46 -!- cheater has joined. 13:55:29 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:56:18 -!- run-bandit has joined. 13:56:33 what is this place 13:56:39 programming language? 13:56:42 yes 13:56:51 for the less serious programming languages around 13:58:19 ok 13:59:46 What, isn't esolangery Serious Business™? 14:00:10 you never know, it might be 14:00:20 only by exploring the silly can you find the interesting on the edge of serious 14:04:47 -!- run-bandit has quit ("lol"). 14:22:11 -!- MissPiggy has joined. 14:57:55 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:58:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:58:12 -!- Deewiant has joined. 15:11:39 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:34:46 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:36:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:07:54 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:10:31 -!- scarf has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:10:46 -!- scarf has joined. 16:15:28 -!- jpc has joined. 16:15:57 so does esolang run in a vm of some sort 16:16:11 do i get an interpreter for esolang under ubuntu? 16:16:14 :P 16:19:14 yes, version 3.1.1 of esolang was just released last week 16:20:55 "esolang"'s a general term 16:21:11 although you can find interpreters for individual esolangs in the repositories if they're really well known, or on the wiki otherwise 16:21:13 hi cpressey by the way 16:23:40 hi ais523 16:24:25 I'm too busy with RL stuff to really do much esolanging at the moment... 16:27:21 I'm trying to find more time for it recently. 16:27:46 The last interesting one I've done is: http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/ 16:28:34 I noticed that one in #esoteric's last review of What Cats's Eye Has Been Up To Recently, but didn't really look at it in detail 16:28:45 For some reason "zowie" made my mind immediately jump to "Yom Kippur", used as some kind of generic expression of happiness. "Yom Kippur, this is the tastiest pie I've ever had!" 16:28:59 it's rather reminicent of continuation passing style, though 16:30:22 scarf: Huh. I have been very interested in continuations lately, but honestly, I wasn't thinking about them at all in ZOWIE 16:30:25 but instead of storing the IP and data together, you can access each of them separately 16:30:48 a Zowie program state is almost a continuation, except you only use half of it at a time, which is rather interesting 16:32:12 hmm, I wonder if it's TC even without the ability to rollback? it's a lot less obvious whether it's TC or not then, but it's not obviously incomplete 16:33:25 scarf: From what I remember... without rollback you can only do "repeat" loops, not "while". 16:33:43 yes, but I think repeat may be enough for TCness by itself 16:33:49 * pikhq wonders if he should try and force his C lambda code into using CPS... 16:33:54 the idea is, immediately after each loop you "undo" one interation of it 16:34:03 It would have the advantage of getting rid of the stack overflows... 16:34:04 but it's not obvious that doing that is always possible 16:34:11 well, it seems to be folklore that repeat is insufficient for TC. i remember looking and i couldn't find an explicit proof 16:34:28 Explicit repeat count? 16:34:34 I'm relatively certain that it depends on other details of the language; it's sufficient sometimes, but not otherwise 16:34:36 tho, i think i know what you're talking about re "undo" 16:34:39 Ilari: no, while but that always loops at least once 16:34:41 (computing fact 10 overflows the stack ATM. ... In addition.) 16:35:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:35:34 No if construct? 16:35:43 scarf: if you could prove that "repeat" loops are sufficient for TC I think you would have something very publishable. at least, that is the impression i formed from what research i did see (e.g. Kozen's work on "while programs") 16:36:04 Ilari: "if" + "repeat" can emulate "while" 16:36:05 Ilari: no if 16:36:25 it's easy enough to imagine languages in which it is possible 16:36:53 imagine a C-like language which stored a sort of "transaction history" of all changes to variables, and had a method to undo the most recent change 16:37:10 * oerjan cannot quite get to grips with this scarf-ais guy 16:37:27 by using a stack of counters which held how many changes there had been, you could just undo the right number of changes 16:37:40 that's requiring a rather implausibly high amount of support from the language, though 16:38:54 scarf: well, maybe too much support to be taken seriously, but still an interesting esolang design 16:39:31 I'm wondering how little language support you could get away with; for instance, bignum BF probably has enough, although I'm less sure about that 16:39:47 (or rather, I should say "DoFuck", I suppose) 16:40:19 since BF maps very easily to "repeat programs", i think that would be publishable 16:40:46 perhaps, but I'm trying to do too many papers in parallel as it is 16:40:54 (again, to clarify, i don't think "publishable" should necessarily be anyone's goal, i'm just using it to describe how surprising it would be) 16:42:04 one thing that comes to mind is: set a variable to 0 before the loop, and to 1 at the end. then at least you should be able to do any _arithmetic_ as if it was a while loop, by exploiting that (assuming you have at least multiplication) 16:42:23 s/at the end/just before the end/ 16:43:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:43:21 because you then have a flag to help you ignore the first iteration 16:43:33 oerjan: that sounds reasonable 16:44:48 and for TC you don't need anything more then than arithmetic assignments, i think 16:45:36 folklore has been proven wrong before :) 16:45:39 are you guys talking about reversibly TC languages? 16:45:48 hm you can even do output with C-like strings, as long as you don't mind outputting a lot of 0-length strings 16:46:13 no afaik 16:46:25 MissPiggy: about TC languages without the ability to skip code 16:46:36 i.e. every loop runs at least once, no if 16:47:10 and the relationship between that and reversible programs is... obscure, at least 16:47:21 i won't say they're not related somehow tho 16:47:26 they do feel related 16:47:31 if you can't skip code, you have to undo the loop 16:47:40 oh, too deep, too early, too little coffee :) 16:47:52 incidentally, it turns out that INTERCAL is TC even with no flow control but jumping from the end of the program to the start 16:47:58 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:48:04 but it has rather a rich set of ways to not do commands, so that's rather unsurprising 16:48:57 well, one of the "while program" results is that you only really need one while loop, so... yeah 16:49:32 hmm, if you only need the one loop, it surely isn't much of a problem to ensure it always iterates once 16:49:52 unless the result allows cheating by using things like ifs inside the loop 16:50:51 well... if you collapse nested loops into a single loop then you can't take oerjan's suggestion of setting a variable to 0 "just before the end" of an inner loop because you've eliminated the inner loop 16:51:47 yes, but then you wouldn't need to 16:52:48 hm, i can't really tell how it would work at this point. 16:53:03 surely you convert to a single while loop before converting that one into repeat 16:53:26 well, you clearly can't do BF with just a single loop 16:53:32 at any rate, i'm occupied for the next little while, so i'll let my brain marinate 16:54:10 cpressey: but if it's while, can't you skip it? 16:54:41 * oerjan whistles innocently 16:55:03 hehe 16:55:08 scarf: true, because you need loops to perform and/or, which while loop collapsing needs 16:55:34 as I said already, I think it's going to be heavily dependent on the other details of the language 16:56:08 oerjan: i can't see why not 16:56:23 (*woosh*) 16:57:27 oerjan: i'd need to see an example in order to reason about it, at this point. 16:57:52 cpressey: um that was a pun, referring to your "next little while" 16:58:30 argh :) 16:58:44 this is the #1 danger of having a productive mathematical discussion with oerjan 16:59:10 bbl 17:15:35 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 17:20:39 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:34:47 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:35:26 -!- jpc has joined. 17:37:13 -!- jpc has quit (Client Quit). 17:37:52 -!- jpc has joined. 17:40:11 -!- sexygirl153 has joined. 17:41:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:51:55 hello 18:00:41 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:18:33 -!- scarf has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:24:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"). 18:29:42 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:45:27 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:28:36 -!- augur has joined. 19:50:42 -!- adu has quit. 19:52:31 -!- adu has joined. 20:17:07 -!- adu has quit. 20:25:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:28:27 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot"). 21:21:19 cheater3: hi 21:21:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:26:07 hi SimonRC 21:26:46 it gets busier later 21:26:52 i know 21:27:10 what are some esolangs you work with simon? 21:36:05 -!- nooga has joined. 21:36:31 hmm 21:37:24 huh? 21:37:54 evening of weird nicknames 21:38:33 sexygirl153 is the best 21:38:53 that's for sure 21:39:04 for sure 21:39:40 sure 21:40:56 seur 21:43:28 Is that "153" age or a birth-year or what? 21:50:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:20:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:56:39 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:08 -!- Azstal has joined. 23:03:23 i don't know 23:03:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:03:47 i hae an idea but it's so undefined that i cannot even express it 23:04:33 cool 23:04:43 nooga you should talk to me with this idea in mind 23:05:03 do you get this feeling sometimes? 23:06:14 yes 23:06:27 lots of times 23:07:06 hm 23:07:16 * oerjan isn't sure if he does 23:07:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:07:53 i'm not sure i can think an idea if i don't express it somehow 23:10:25 more specifically, i think i have trouble _remembering_ things that cannot be put in words 23:10:39 (or symbols, at least) 23:11:19 which could of course mean that i _do_ have such feelings but just don't remember them 23:12:53 * Sgeo should probably eat 23:13:12 * Sgeo tends to die if he doesn't eat 23:13:27 is this a frequent problem of yours? 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