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00:13:34 <Sgeo> It is so fricken cold outside
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01:09:49 <coppro> w000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000t!
01:10:47 <Sgeo> coppro
01:10:48 <Sgeo> ?
01:10:53 <coppro> I got accepted!
01:11:23 <Sgeo> Congratulations! [Accepted to what?]
01:11:56 <bsmntbombdood> my anus
01:13:12 <coppro> UWaterloo!
01:16:46 * Sgeo wishes 8-bit Weapon was on Grooveshark
01:16:52 <Sgeo> Well, some songs are, but not all
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02:35:43 <uorygl_> Yay, coppro got accepted to UWaterloo!
02:35:53 <coppro> Yay!
02:36:05 <coppro> just need to decide between Math and CS before the end of May
02:36:20 <Gregor> CS
02:36:27 <Gregor> Math is for losers.
02:36:32 <Gregor> >_>
02:36:37 <Gregor> <_<
02:36:55 <uorygl_> Do you? I've been at my school for nearly a year and I still haven't decided between math and CS.
02:37:09 <pikhq> Both.
02:38:03 <coppro> uorygl_: my understanding is that switching between them should be relatively easy as there's a lot of course overlap (especially if I pick my courses to increase that overlap), but I have to pick one entrance program
02:41:33 <uorygl_> Aww, entrance programs.
02:48:06 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/vg/zee4.ogg The first piece of VG music I've written that may actually fit somewhere into the game I want to fit it in to.
02:51:04 <uorygl_> So, I wonder:
02:51:17 <uorygl_> This channel is publicly logged. Does that pretty much mean that I can use the logs as I see fit?
02:52:03 <Gregor> Not sure who "owns" logs.
02:52:25 <Gregor> At the very least, even if there is some legal restriction on what you could do with them, it would be nigh-on impossible to enforce.
02:53:50 <puzzlet> in the meantime, although i'm not sure this would be an appropriate channel to ask, i'm suffering strange itch in freenode
02:54:00 <puzzlet> it goes like:
02:54:01 <puzzlet> 06:33 [Freenode] -!- vtilmicegzko: No such nick/channel
02:54:01 <puzzlet> 10:46 [Freenode] -!- nysptgqss: No such nick/channel
02:54:59 <uorygl_> Ah, yes, I'm getting those, too.
02:54:59 <Gregor> That's ... weird.
02:55:05 <Gregor> I'm ... not?
02:55:08 <uorygl_> I may have heard this before.
02:55:17 <uorygl_> s//of/
02:55:31 <Gregor> <uorygl_> ofI may have heard this before.
02:55:54 <uorygl_> Precisely.
02:56:14 <uorygl_> I think it was called "whois spam", and is some sort of bug in freenode's software.
03:03:22 <puzzlet> and freenode is planning an ircd migration tommorrow
03:04:18 <puzzlet> maybe i'll wait and see if it's been fixed
03:05:18 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/WLNJ
03:05:30 <pikhq> My C, it is slightly crazy.
03:05:54 <pikhq> (very much work in progress)
03:06:32 <Gregor> pikhq: *brain explodes*
03:06:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Hahahah.
03:07:06 <pikhq> It's just functional lazy C.
03:07:23 <pikhq> C: the most verbose functional language.
03:07:47 <Sgeo> Pax Deorum is a pretty awesome song
03:08:01 <uorygl_> Lux Aeterna is also a pretty neat song.
03:08:16 <pikhq> I may, once I'm done making that into a Lazy K interpreter, go back and make it mostly standard C...
03:08:24 <uorygl_> What does your song title mean? Godly Peace?
03:08:29 <Gregor> As nice as Lux Aeterna is, it's ooooooooooooo overused.
03:08:33 <Gregor> *sooooooooooooo
03:08:45 <Sgeo> uorygl_, don't know
03:08:55 <Sgeo> http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Pax+Deorum/12536556
03:09:38 <uorygl_> Hmm, "Peace of the Gods". I didn't know that the genitive plural could be used like that.
03:10:03 <uorygl_> Gregor: it's a good thing, then, that I never hear it except when I choose to.
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09:31:37 <Milchm> hello all
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09:37:40 <Milchm> I'm not shure if anybody can read what I'm writting
09:44:14 <scarf> hi
09:44:16 <scarf> Milchm: I can see it
09:44:41 <Milchm> thanks scarf
09:44:57 <scarf> what brings you here?
09:45:14 <scarf> it's likely to be relatively empty this early, many of the brits will be at school, and the americans will be asleep
09:45:30 <scarf> and likewise, scandinavians have a similar problem to the british, although most of them are out of school nowadays
09:45:37 <Milchm> its crowded enough scarf
09:45:42 <scarf> it's mostly idlers
09:46:13 <scarf> it's usual for people to leave their computer in a channel even when they aren't there themselves, so they can see what was said when they get back
09:46:27 <Milchm> Well, scarf, I'm searching for more information bout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_yoga and tummo
09:46:45 <scarf> hmm, you may be in the wrong channel / on the wrong server
09:46:53 <scarf> Freenode's a programming server
09:46:58 <scarf> so this channel's about esoteric programming languages
09:47:13 <scarf> basically, languages designed without practicality as one of their goals
09:47:15 <Milchm> ooops, I'v never been *that* wrong ;-)
09:47:29 <scarf> don't worry, it's an easy mistake
09:47:37 <Milchm> my shell is esoteric enough for me ;-)
09:47:54 <scarf> unfortunately we don't know where to send people instead; if you find out, let us know and we'll be able to help other people in your position in future
09:48:59 <Milchm> I'll try UNDERNET
09:49:00 <Milchm> #buddhism  now, but this won't help you in most cases
09:49:25 <scarf> ah, ok
09:49:34 <Milchm> bye scarf
09:49:39 <scarf> bye
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09:50:08 <fizzie> Also some of the people on the channel are sneakily lurking.
09:51:19 <scarf> heh, you were here all along?
09:56:44 <fizzie> Yes. And yet you never knew!
10:13:00 <FireFly> Ah
10:13:17 <FireFly> I indeed was in school
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15:53:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you happen to know if there is a no-cost telephone number lookup service for Swedish numbers? (I am aware of one Finnish place that gives address information -- name data costs a fraction of an euro, but the address is sometimes enough -- but of course that's Finnish-only.)
15:54:30 <fizzie> (And wasn't your country code +46?)
15:58:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, try eniro.se
15:58:54 <AnMaster> also debugging X crashes
15:59:02 <AnMaster> atm I'm testing older nvidia driver
15:59:04 <AnMaster> to see if that helps
15:59:29 <AnMaster> since it only crashes after a moderatly long idle period (independent of DPMS it seems!)...
15:59:35 <AnMaster> it is annoying to debug this
15:59:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also maybe hitta.se
15:59:59 <AnMaster> or is that map only(?)
16:00:09 <AnMaster> anyway eniro.se is basically telefonkatalogen
16:00:34 <AnMaster> anyway leaving desktop for a while, going to make food, will check afterwards if it locked up or not
16:01:00 <Ilari> AnMaster: Screensaver?
16:01:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, none
16:01:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, also I had to reboot to fix it last time. It was so bad that the nvidia card changed to "unknown device" in lspci
16:01:41 <AnMaster> and dmesg contained lots of those infamous nvidia Xid messages
16:02:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, recent change: replaced old monitor with a new larger one
16:02:03 <Ilari> AnMaster: How did you reboot? Alt+SysRq+{S,U,B}?
16:02:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes, the times when it worked
16:02:23 <AnMaster> didn't work every time
16:02:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, and sometimes it was enough to ssh in and kill X server, then type reboot
16:03:04 <Ilari> AnMaster: You ever tested what happens if you ssh in, shut down X and then try to restart it?
16:03:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, one time I got a blinking led situation (kernel oops)
16:03:22 <AnMaster> Ilari, well that time was when it showed up as unknown pci device after
16:03:27 <AnMaster> so it refuses to start X
16:03:37 <AnMaster> also the display was corrupted (but still readable)
16:03:53 <AnMaster> it was like the framebuffer was stretched so every other pixel was used or so
16:04:12 -!- scarf has changed nick to scarf|away.
16:04:13 <AnMaster> bbl now
16:04:21 <Ilari> Heh... Sometimes X keyboard driver locks up here (have to do Alt+SysRq+R, Alt-F2, Alt-F7).
16:04:46 <fizzie> Some site called vemringde.se seems to implicate it's some phone marketing place... didn't know those call to other countries.
16:13:32 -!- scarf|away has changed nick to scarf.
16:20:03 <cpressey> scarf: You're right, Burro doesn't form a proper group.  I think the way to fix it is to have (/) act like {\} when there is undo information available.  Then (/) is its own inverse, and {\} can be removed.  Whether it can still be TC after that, though, I don't know...
16:20:31 <scarf> cpressey: neither do I, but it isn't obviously sub-TC, and that's a good sign
16:41:52 <AnMaster> Ilari, hasn't crashed yet
16:49:49 <MissPiggy> guys
16:49:54 <MissPiggy> I think I might be turing complete :(
16:49:59 <MissPiggy> what should I do? How can I tell my parents
16:50:06 <scarf> MissPiggy: do you have infinite memory?
16:50:10 <scarf> if not, there's nothing to worry about
16:50:21 <MissPiggy> I don't have infinite memory but I can write things down
16:50:41 <scarf> there's a limit to how much you can write down before you die
16:50:48 <MissPiggy> *PHEW*
16:51:19 <AnMaster> scarf, MissPiggy: what if science find a way to extend the life before MissPiggy dies?
16:51:34 <AnMaster> oh wait, still the heat death of the universe
16:51:37 <scarf> AnMaster: then, that means that MissPiggy isn't turing-complete /yet/
16:51:52 <AnMaster> true
16:59:02 <pikhq> We just need to make MissPiggy be immortal in an infinite universe.
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17:32:26 <pikhq> Apparently lazy church numerals are confusing.
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17:37:56 <oerjan> like, even when applying them, they might or might not be fully evaluated, dependent on representation?
17:38:15 <pikhq> Yes.
17:39:07 * pikhq is just going to write his fromChurch function in terms of the zero predicate.
17:39:15 <pikhq> And the successor function.
17:39:31 <pikhq> PITA, but less of a PITA than figuring out where in the world the thunks are going.
17:39:58 <pikhq> Erm. Predecessor.
17:40:02 * pikhq lazys up the C church predecessor function.
17:40:17 <oerjan> if you apply it to a function that is always strict in its arguments, then you are ensured the church numeral is evaluated fully, i think
17:40:57 <pikhq> Oh, okay then.
17:41:02 <pikhq> That makes sense.
17:44:11 <pikhq> Not the behavior I'm seeing.
17:44:17 <pikhq> Laziness in C is hard.
17:48:14 <pikhq> I'm getting the distinct impression something here is *too* lazy.
17:49:10 <oerjan> oh, you need to apply it to a strict function and another argument, of course.
17:49:28 <pikhq>   dethunk(callerT(toChurch(2), 2, tmp, I));
17:49:40 <pikhq> Where tmp is strict in its argument.
17:51:57 <oerjan> mhm
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17:52:43 <oerjan> schrödinger's pig
17:53:26 <MissPiggy> im a catastrophic failure
17:54:20 <oerjan> so how many did your experiment kill?
17:54:44 <oerjan> or cause to never have been born, if it involved time travel
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17:56:40 <oerjan> if it's too hard to count, an approximate number of planets/galaxies/universes is also acceptable
18:01:03 <cpressey> The precise count is only available as an unevaluated Church numeral, sorry.
18:04:30 <AnMaster> yay located a service manual for my old monitor
18:04:34 <AnMaster> this should be interesting
18:05:47 <pikhq> I'm definitely being too lazy in something.
18:05:55 <pikhq> Probably the successor function.
18:06:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, get to work then ;P
18:06:32 <pikhq> Too lazy. :P
18:07:02 <pikhq> It's amazing how hard it is to write "λn f x → f (n f x)" in C.
18:07:08 <oerjan> too lazy, so no successing
18:07:21 <pikhq> I've got half a mind to just convert that to SK...
18:07:29 <pikhq> Since I know that my S and K work right.
18:07:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, also try haskell, I heard they liked lazyness
18:08:01 <AnMaster> I also heard that mathematicians are lazy. It explains a lot about a) mathematical notation b) haskell
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18:11:41 <cpressey> Proof of that last statement is left as an exercise for the reader.
18:12:34 <oklopol> http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/website_burro.html <<< what if we have {} inside ()
18:13:03 <oklopol> "{: Make the most recently added child of the current node the new current node"
18:13:09 <cpressey> oklopol: {} needs to go away :)
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18:13:14 <oklopol> oh?
18:13:30 <cpressey> as scarf pointed out, it's not a group, because {} doesn't have an inverse
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18:14:10 <oklopol> it's basically just the natural inverse of (), it's just not thought through
18:14:15 <oklopol> you need to have stacks that go two ways
18:14:49 <cpressey> oklopol: I was thinking of just making () its own inverse (i.e. behave like {} if there is stuff on the stack)
18:14:50 <oklopol> which really is obvious, i guess the author just got confused, can't imagine why
18:15:02 <oklopol> ah
18:15:06 <oklopol> would that work?
18:15:24 <cpressey> Yeah, I can't imagine why I would ever get confused, either :P
18:15:25 <oklopol> you could just add a nop () after every ()
18:15:39 <cpressey> I have no idea if it would work yet
18:15:50 <oklopol> basically every second () is negative
18:16:52 <oklopol> anyway what my sarcasm was trying to convey is i'm rather confused about all this, not sure this is something i can revolutionize instantly.
18:16:54 <cpressey> Yes, good point about nop ()'s.
18:16:56 <scarf> if (/) inverses (/), you no longer have a stack, but a one-element buffer
18:17:01 <oklopol> yeah
18:17:07 <scarf> one-bit, in fact
18:17:10 <oklopol> that was the idea, except would that work for nesting
18:17:11 <cpressey> Ugh.
18:17:22 <AnMaster> interesting flow chart this... it has "YES" and "NG"...
18:17:28 <AnMaster> consistently
18:17:53 <oklopol> maybe it was scanned and automatically converted to text
18:18:12 <oklopol> the parts that looked like letters, that is; sounds pretty probable
18:18:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe, but then someone added in the arrows for the flowchart again?
18:18:23 <AnMaster> and such
18:18:57 <oklopol> nono, they have a pic, and they put it through a program that searches for stuff that looks like letters, and changes everything to one given font.
18:20:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, also I doubt they would do that for a service manual. After all asking someone to check the third pin of U105 after properly discharging C54 (for safety) would be very different from asking someone to do the same but discharge 59 (for example)
18:21:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, I doubt they would want dead service technicians (this is troubleshooting the high voltage part of a monitor that is used to drive the backlight)
18:21:24 <cpressey> It sounds like it could be troubleshooting-talk for "No Good" then
18:21:35 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh maybe
18:21:51 -!- scarf has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:22:18 <AnMaster> anyway I seem to lack a multimeter (as expected) so there isn't much I can do to track it down
18:22:25 <oklopol> you can't know whether two programs do that same thing, so clearly it's *impossible* to make all this work
18:22:32 <oklopol> you can't know whether the thing you have should do nothing
18:22:45 <oklopol> oh wait
18:22:47 <AnMaster> all I know is that the display renders but backlight is off, and I see no obvious faults (such as burned out components or broken cables when I look
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18:23:08 <oklopol> that's crappy logic, it's enough for the problem to be in RE for it to be implementable here
18:23:09 <oklopol> i think
18:23:18 <AnMaster> okay this seems funny
18:23:41 <AnMaster> cpressey: White screen -> LVDS Cable Reinsert -(OK)-> Workmanship
18:25:28 <cpressey> Yes, that seems funny.
18:25:47 <AnMaster> great the schematic is really low res
18:25:55 <AnMaster> you can't read the labels
18:26:15 <AnMaster> you can barley see that something looks like a resistor-ish line
18:27:33 <AnMaster> ah this part is more readable, and it looks like it *might* be relaced to the CCFL
18:27:48 <AnMaster> oh wait no, just the built in speakers XDS
18:27:50 <AnMaster> XD*
18:28:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, also strange thing:
18:28:50 <AnMaster> Title: Someone, Document Number: DCINPUT
18:28:54 <AnMaster> from the scanned schematics
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18:29:00 <AnMaster> that was in one corner of it
18:30:16 <cpressey> oklopol: There could still be a stack, but it could be manipulated with explicit commands, maybe?  Like "v" push bit down, "^" pull bit up.
18:30:41 <cpressey> "Title: Someone", huh.
18:30:58 <AnMaster> cpressey, also DCINPUT was more apt as a title
18:31:22 <AnMaster> summary: be sceptical of Acer monitor service manuals
18:31:29 <AnMaster> since the exploded diagram is wrong too
18:31:40 <cpressey> Indeed.
18:31:43 <AnMaster> well, partly right
18:32:00 <AnMaster> it could be related to DVI vs VGA versions
18:32:34 <AnMaster> it says it is DVI version, and for the VGA version it says (in red, without quotes):  "(We will update later)"
18:32:42 <AnMaster> and I have the VGA version
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18:32:52 <AnMaster> there is no actual exploded diagram for the VGA one
18:32:59 <cpressey> Useful thing in a service manual, that.
18:33:04 <AnMaster> cpressey, yeah
18:33:31 <muni> Hello, is it that tricky to read two numbers separated by space in Whitespace language? Because reading number, then character (space) and then number again doesn't work as I wish.
18:33:35 <AnMaster> also I'm unable to find the spec of the voltage for the CCFLs
18:33:52 <cpressey> bbl lunch
18:35:55 <AnMaster> muni, never used whitespace. Don't really know
18:36:48 <AnMaster> cpressey, for when you get back: there are some strange thing going on in the safety precautions too. I don't know where Acer is based, it could possibly be bad translation.
18:36:59 <muni> AnMaster: That's a shame.
18:37:07 <AnMaster> muni, befunge is my speciality
18:37:33 <pikhq> Successor in SKI is ugly.
18:37:34 <pikhq> (S(KS)K)(S((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)I))((S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)(S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))((S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)I)I)))I)
18:37:40 <AnMaster> yeargh
18:37:54 <pikhq> (note: may be more efficient ways. I did not compile that by hand.)
18:38:46 <bsmntbombdood> i love ski
18:39:35 <pikhq> Anyways. Now I just make my churchSucc thunk compile that, and voila.
18:41:03 <pikhq> And the SKI compiler fails.
18:41:08 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: we can go skiing when you come to finland
18:41:16 <bsmntbombdood> ooh ok
18:41:43 <oklopol> i'm in the 1% of finns who likes it
18:41:51 <oklopol> well young ppl anyway
18:42:06 <oklopol> also maybe like
18:42:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah it is norway where it is national sport isn't it?
18:42:21 <AnMaster> well apart from oerjan, iirc he hates it
18:42:26 <pikhq> global_thunk(static, churchSucc, NULL, {return dethunk(eval(genList("(S(KS)K)(S((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)I))((S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)(S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))((S(S(K(S(KS)K))S)(KK))((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)I)I)))I)")));});
18:42:31 <pikhq> If only it worked.
18:43:51 <oklopol> i have no idea what's the national sport of anything
18:44:05 <muni> AnMaster: OK, I get it, Whitespace is silly :)
18:44:28 <AnMaster> muni, I didn't say that
18:44:33 <AnMaster> I don't think it is
18:44:39 <AnMaster> in fact it is a great idea
18:45:28 <muni> AnMaster: Why?
18:45:36 <AnMaster> why not
18:46:25 <AnMaster> muni, certainly it would be much harder in INTERCAL I assume
18:46:35 <AnMaster> to do basically anything
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18:49:17 <oklopol> muni: do you write whitespace in actual whitespace?
18:49:37 <Sgeo> The esolangers lost their Robozzle addiction?
18:49:39 <muni> oklopol: What do you mean?
18:49:53 <oklopol> personally i would cheat, there's not even any sort of verbosity problem if you compile some saner syntax into it
18:50:05 <oerjan> lessee, succ = \n f x -> f (n f x)
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18:50:13 <oklopol> muni: do you write in tabs and spaces and shit, or do you type <space> <tab> ... or something, and compile
18:50:44 <pikhq> oerjan: That's hard in C.
18:51:08 <oklopol> Sgeo: how much have you solveD?
18:51:10 <oklopol> *solved
18:51:17 <pikhq> And now I'm suspecting something's screwy with "eval"...
18:51:19 <muni> oklopol: Oh, well, I write in tabs and spaces and shit. But I have them marked, it's not like I can't see them at all.
18:51:22 <Sgeo> >.>
18:52:03 <oerjan> = \n f -> S (K f) (n f) = \n -> S (S (K S) K) n = S (S (K S) K)
18:52:38 <Sgeo> Within the last 24h, 0. Total, 81
18:52:43 <oklopol> no all in all
18:52:45 <bsmntbombdood> haha
18:52:49 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan wins
18:55:09 <oklopol> oerjan: how fast do you do that?
18:55:42 <oerjan> a minute or so?
18:56:04 <oklopol> okay?
18:56:10 <pikhq> oerjan: That's a much shorter one.
18:56:20 <pikhq> And more likely to not be screwed up. :P
18:56:30 <bsmntbombdood> i forgot all those rules
18:56:33 <pikhq> I'll give it a shot in a bit.
18:56:35 <oklopol> just wondering how fast you do that, i'm damn slow at it
18:58:51 <oklopol> oh lol actually i can do that quite fast
18:59:03 <oerjan> pikhq: you get a lot of verbosity if you don't use the \x -> f x = f rule, ending up with S (K f) I instead
18:59:24 <pikhq> oerjan: Mmm.
18:59:52 <oerjan> also, it was lucky that the n ended up only at the end, at the end
18:59:59 * pikhq is defining a "lazy lambda" macro ATM... Should be less painful to write.
19:04:57 <pikhq> Well, that segfaults.
19:05:02 <pikhq> Definitely something buggy.
19:05:11 <oerjan> oklopol: it's actually easier to do in unlambda notation, because then it's nearly character substitution
19:06:39 <oerjan> ` -> ``s, + functions
19:06:48 <HackEgo> No output.
19:06:55 <oerjan> HackEgo: you don't say
19:07:32 <oklopol> is \n -> S (S (K (S n)) K) n = S (S (S (K S) (S (K K) S)) (K K)) I correct? i'm sure you can check with ease
19:07:47 <oklopol> hmm
19:08:01 <bsmntbombdood> evaluate it yourself
19:08:02 <oerjan> don't think so
19:08:10 <oerjan> should start with S (K S) ...
19:08:11 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: faster this way
19:08:27 <bsmntbombdood> ah, an irc channel with an oerjan oracle
19:08:31 <oklopol> :P
19:09:54 <oerjan> S (S (K S) K) n f x = S (K S) K f (n f) x = K S f (K f) (n f) x = S (K f) (n f) x = f (n f x), just checking mine above
19:10:24 <Gregor> Damn, I had to lock down hackiki.org to require login to edit :(
19:11:14 <oklopol> okay i get \n -> (S (K (S n)) K) n
19:11:51 <oklopol> i guess i got confused by all the S's
19:11:57 <oklopol> there were too many of them
19:12:16 <oerjan> oklopol: that's the part that gets easier with unlambda notation
19:12:50 <oklopol> i see
19:15:42 * pikhq looks at the call graph
19:17:47 <pikhq> So far all I can tell is that xgc_malloc gets called a lot.
19:18:48 <AnMaster> anyone knows if VGA and DVI are guaranteed to be hot pluggable?
19:18:58 <AnMaster> (and hot *un*pluggable)
19:19:28 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:19:32 <impomatic> Hi :-)
19:19:47 <oerjan> isn't VGA damn old
19:19:48 <impomatic> There's a CROBOTS tournament taking place soon, http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?link=91
19:19:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes but still
19:21:23 <oerjan> before USB i hadn't really _heard_ about hot pluggability.  admittedly i'm about the platonical ideal opposite of a hardware guy.
19:22:19 <oerjan> cromulent crobots
19:25:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: This is of course not conclusive proof, but Wikipedia's infobox on DVI says "Hot pluggable: Yes"; the infobox for the VGA connector does not list either.
19:26:00 <cpressey> No, VGA is not guaranteed to be hot-pluggable.
19:26:43 <fizzie> VGA is quite often plugged hot, though. Switching monitor cables around is more frequent than many other types of cables.
19:28:10 <cpressey> Oh, you're probably safe doing it, but there was no design constraint for it.
19:29:11 <cpressey> I remember trying to explain this concept to someone on the freebsd-questions list once.  They had a hard time believing that RS-232 (I think?) wasn't guaranteed to be hot-pluggable, because THEY never had a problem with it.
19:30:10 <cpressey> Hardware questions on freebsd-questions can be quite entertaining.
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19:36:57 <cpressey> http://python.pastebin.com/m541353e
19:37:26 <cpressey> Because it's every day that I have a need to retain the last value that the loop variable took on in the loop.
19:38:20 <cpressey> Sorry, I've just been doing a lot of Python lately.  I like it, overall, but mainly because I know that the number of things that irritate me would probably only be greater in most other languages.
19:38:20 <bsmntbombdood> uuh
19:38:26 <bsmntbombdood> how is that not the expected behavior?
19:38:34 <bsmntbombdood> why would loops have their own scope?
19:39:04 <cpressey> Why shouldn't loops have their own scope?  When is it useful to know what the value of the variable was on the last iteration, after the loop is over?
19:39:47 <cpressey> If "expected behaviour" means "behaviour we've come to expect from using crappy languages for decades", yes, it's the expected behaviour :)
19:41:55 <bsmntbombdood> it's bad form anyway
19:42:07 <bsmntbombdood> your loop variable shouldn't shadow another
19:44:55 <cpressey> I suppose I can't expect the language to treat shadowing a variable as a syntax error either, though.  It's my fault for not correctly cataloging the 'n' variable names used in this scope so far, in my head.  :)
19:53:56 * oerjan vaguely recalls perl allows you to decide whether loop variables get their own scope, by adding "my"
19:56:38 * oerjan confirms this
19:57:43 <cpressey> Yeah, it does.  Also C lets you open a new scope in an anonymous block, at least.
19:59:09 <Deewiant> C99 does; older Cs don't let you declare variables except at the top of a function.
19:59:42 <cpressey> Hm, I thought it was ANSI...
19:59:49 <cpressey> I mean, C89
20:00:19 <Deewiant> Declarations after statements are errors in C89
20:00:43 <cpressey> Deewiant: but what about in an inner block?
20:00:47 <coppro> C89 allows declarations in blocks
20:00:52 <coppro> not just functions
20:00:53 <cpressey> I thought so
20:01:07 <Deewiant> Darn, I thought {} was considered a statement
20:01:17 <cpressey> void x(void) { int x; x = 15; { int y; y = 12 } }  should be ok
20:01:48 <Deewiant> Oh, hmm, that I didn't expect at all
20:01:49 <cpressey> er, with the possible exception of the function name being shadowed -- that was unintentional
20:01:54 <Deewiant> heh
20:13:47 <cpressey> Deewiant, you appear to be deewiating from the spec.  :)
20:14:35 <oerjan> you just had to pressey the issue, right
20:14:40 <bsmntbombdood> {(...)} is a statement
20:14:50 <bsmntbombdood> or ({...}), i can't remember
20:16:11 * oerjan vaguely recalls reading ({...}) being a gcc extension?
20:16:12 <cpressey> ... and you're oerjan me to make another pun.
20:16:24 <bsmntbombdood> i thought it was c99
20:16:52 <oerjan> well i probably read it on this channel, so...
20:18:19 <oerjan> or rather, ({...}) was an expression containing a statement
20:20:42 <fizzie> { ... } is also a statement; it's called "compound statement". But you can still stick declarations there, because it's: compound-statement: { declaration-list<opt> statement-list<opt> }
20:23:06 <fizzie> I don't think C99 has the ({ ... }) trick, though; at least the GCC docs about it don't mention C99, which is what they often do with many other things that are GCC extensions in C89/C90 and also legal C99.
20:35:18 <fizzie> Asked fungot to spew out some song lyrics; it replied: "confronted shame what they're sayin / it's more than before / dis-leur que je pars. / mais loin, l-bas, / quelque part, kept mention / im prayin fraid death pre-hook been / patti crips establish colder; functions hunt so in life / oh a smooth savage chronicles aint true"
20:35:19 <fungot> fizzie: good god! give it up.
20:35:54 <soupdragon> fungot style
20:35:55 <coppro> ({ }) is not legal C99
20:35:55 <fungot> soupdragon: ive never asked you before mentioning that you were not " here"
20:36:26 <fizzie> (The particular style that generated that stuff is not in the bot yet. It's also not very good.)
20:36:34 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Why shouldn't loops have their own scope?  When is it useful to know what the value of the variable was on the last iteration, after the loop is over? <-- happened to me, so just declare the variable outside the loop
20:37:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, C does the right thing for scope in imperative languages IMO
20:37:10 <FireFly> Oh, a fungot
20:37:12 <fungot> FireFly: fair automaton.) a variety of colorful fish and wildlife hella cool
20:37:33 <fizzie> Fungot, a fair automaton; also a variety of colorful fish and wildlife.
20:37:57 <fizzie> fungot: That was a nice self-description you had there.
20:37:58 <fungot> fizzie: as in you will save some consing yet?
20:39:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I don't think C99 has the ({ ... }) trick, though; at least the GCC docs about it don't mention C99, which is what they often do with many other things that are GCC extensions in C89/C90 and also legal C99. <-- indeed ({...}) is a GNU extension and is not allowed in a conforming C program
20:39:21 <AnMaster> (or was it "strictly conforming"?)
20:39:50 <AnMaster> ^style
20:39:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:40:02 <AnMaster> soupdragon, learn the commands ;P
20:40:55 <Sgeo> soupdragon disliked being called MissPiggy?
20:41:18 <soupdragon> just the default name on this system is different...
20:41:34 <Sgeo> ah
20:45:45 <Sgeo> What spamming attacks?
20:47:39 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://blog.freenode.net/2010/01/javascript-spam/
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21:00:47 <FireFly> ^style ff7
21:00:48 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
21:01:13 <FireFly> fungot, give me a line of wisdom
21:01:14 <fungot> FireFly: now we've saved aerith, you have the lunar harp you're after. we almost have the promised land, so shu'up jackass!
21:04:16 <fizzie> fungot: That sounds more like a random set of quotes mashed together than genuine wisdom.
21:04:17 <fungot> fizzie: now then... this ship's gonna save the planet, merge with one another and roam the planet is hurt, are you saying?
21:04:36 <fizzie> fungot: No, I most definitely am not saying that.
21:04:36 <fungot> fizzie: we're talking about, professor... someone's in here... you were trying to say...
21:05:09 <cpressey> ^style lovecraft
21:05:10 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
21:05:18 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:05:21 <fizzie> I don't think that one ever worked very well.
21:05:21 <cpressey> fungot: I think that's more appropriate for this venue, don't you?
21:05:22 <fungot> cpressey: subconscious alarm in his fnord to humour the fellow. if i could but learn to discover and read them? i did not have to ask.
21:05:53 <cpressey> meh.
21:06:14 -!- soupdragon has quit ("* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *").
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21:06:49 <oerjan> fungot: feeling particularly noneuclidean today?
21:06:50 <fungot> oerjan: what i did see was not spectacular, not grotesque or terrifying, yet it was none of nahum's family at all who made the family name as celebrated in ethnology as in exploration. in 1815 sir robert married a daughter of the seventh fnord fnord and fnord disordered sound; abysses whose material and fnord properties, and whose frightened appeals for government inquiry and action brought on the fnord arkham innsmouth newbury
21:07:10 <fizzie> Heh, I had just in the process of writing some sort of non-Euclidean reference, too.
21:07:15 <oerjan> i say!
21:08:27 <cpressey> ^style bunnicula
21:08:27 <fungot> Not found.
21:08:33 <oerjan> fungot: hast du hastur?
21:08:34 <fungot> oerjan: that night fnord me, i shut my eyes and beheld myself upon the platform of that lighthouse whence i had sailed so many aeons ago, before even the gods had danced upon its pointed peak, that mountain had spoken with fire and roared with the voices of ulthar's many cats, but that the priests in the masked and hooded columns are not human beings.
21:08:47 <cpressey> too much fnording.
21:09:05 <cpressey> ^style c64
21:09:05 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
21:09:08 <oerjan> too fnord, or not to fnord, that is the fnord
21:09:24 <cpressey> fungot: So, lay it on us.
21:09:24 <fungot> cpressey: to pass in front of, or in conjunction with the program above to allow an easier way to create a
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21:15:23 <Sgeo> Hm. How can malicious Javascript cause a connection to a server other than the one hosting the malicious Javascript?
21:17:15 -!- soupdragon has joined.
21:21:28 <fizzie> Sgeo: By causing the client to submit a POST request that has contents that look like IRC connection initiation; I mean, JavaScript is perfectly capable of pressing the submit button of a form, and the form action field can be any URL.
21:21:56 <fizzie> (At least that's my guess; I'm not a web person.)
21:23:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:23:42 <fizzie> Based on the comments, that's somewhat close to what happens; they do say that their new ircd is clever enough to not just ignore the HTTP headers sent by the client.
21:24:48 <Sgeo_> Hm
21:24:56 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to register Sgeo_ and Sgeo__
21:25:59 <fizzie> Yes, that is what they recommend. Sort-of, anyway.
21:26:06 <fizzie> "It's useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is foo:
21:26:06 <fizzie>     /nick foo_
21:26:06 <fizzie> and then
21:26:06 <fizzie>     /msg nickserv group"
21:26:22 <Sgeo_> Oh
21:26:23 <Sgeo_> Oops
21:26:33 <Sgeo_> How do I unregister this?
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21:27:30 <AnMaster> funny, switched monitor to dvi
21:27:39 <AnMaster> now I get X display but not console
21:27:47 <AnMaster> wonder how to switch the frame buffer over to dvi
21:27:51 <AnMaster> anyone knows?
21:28:11 <soupdragon> what's the best shell script web server?
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21:34:41 <fizzie> Matroxfb had a custom option for selecting outputs; if it's vesafb, I doubt it has any way of choosing anything else than what the card thinks of as the primary thing when it gets initialized. Might be wrong, though.
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21:35:50 <fizzie> My nvidia card (which, admittedly, has just two DVI connectors) sends the VGA text console to both outputs; I don't quite remember what the framebuffer console did.
21:36:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, mine has one vga and one dvi
21:36:29 <AnMaster> which one it sends to depends on which was connected at boot
21:36:41 <AnMaster> soupdragon, the one written with dd/sh
21:37:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes it is vesafb
21:37:28 <fizzie> Well; do you happen to see the connectors as separate /dev/fbX devices or what? I don't really remember how that works; I would think it's just a single device.
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21:37:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is just /dev/fb0
21:38:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ever noticed that option "digital vibrance" in nvidia-settings? What the heck is the point of it?
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21:38:50 <fizzie> I assume it does some made-to-look-more-colorful-to-a-layperson colorspace mangling. I don't remember when I last looked at nvidia-settings, though.
21:38:57 <fizzie> Their Windows display drivers are full of stuff like that too.
21:39:16 <AnMaster> heh
21:39:59 <fizzie> "DVC is a patent pending innovation for controlling color separation and intensity and is bundled with the ForceWare software for desktop, workstation, platform, and mobile solutions."
21:40:04 <fizzie> Oh, they're even trying to patent it.
21:40:13 <fizzie> Well, the patent application -- if you can find it -- should say what it does.
21:40:32 <AnMaster> hah
21:40:44 <fizzie> (That was from the http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_dvc.html hype-page.)
21:41:06 <fizzie> "Dry presentations receive a dramatic boost with more visual intensity." See, it can even make your boring powerpoint presentations interesting.
21:41:15 <fizzie> I would hope it changes the content there too.
21:42:32 <AnMaster> hah
21:42:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, even monitor these days provides various "look better to lay persons" modes
21:43:19 <fizzie> Sure. Not to even start with digital cameras.
21:43:53 <fizzie> Mine has a food photography mode, for example.
21:44:47 <fizzie> Oh, and a "soft skin" mode, which applies some sort of a blur effect on all skin-colored parts of the image.
21:44:54 <AnMaster> food photography?
21:45:01 <AnMaster> that is one I never heard
21:45:08 <AnMaster> heard before*
21:45:13 <fizzie> "This mode allows you to take pictures of food with a natural hue without being affected by the ambient light in restaurants etc."
21:45:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a skin tone option in my monitor's menus-
21:45:45 <AnMaster> s/-/./
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21:45:51 <AnMaster> not sure what it does, it is greyed out
21:46:03 <AnMaster> probably due to it being in "standard sRGB mode"
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21:46:44 <fizzie> A friend has a camera that has a smile photography mode. When you turn it on, it uses the face recognition stuff to find faces, then waits until it sees something that approximates a smile (teeth showing is a good way to make it trigger) and then rapidly takes three pictures, though unfortunately with a two-seconds-or-so delay.
21:47:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw they call it "Splendid - Video Intelligence Technology" on the monitor
21:48:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
21:49:31 * AnMaster just pealed away the big colourful sticker saying "Splendid <that thing> try me <hand with index finger pointing to one of the buttons on the monitor"
21:49:38 <AnMaster> s/"/>"/
21:49:48 <Deewiant> s/pealed/peeled/
21:51:07 <AnMaster> yeah
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21:52:23 <AnMaster> and there goes the other stickers: Vista ready, HDCP, 8000:1, aspect control, "Asus RoHS Compliant" (wth is that?), and the model number. Sadly they were all on one. I would have been happy to keep the model number
21:52:40 <AnMaster> well the glossy surface on the *sticker* was unacceptable
21:52:48 <AnMaster> reflections
21:52:56 <fizzie> RoHS is some sort of not-too-toxic-stuff-used-when-building-the-thing spec.
21:53:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah well
21:53:06 <fizzie> "Directive on the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment".
21:53:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did the abbrev come from that
21:53:31 -!- tombom__ has joined.
21:53:36 <AnMaster> also strange but I can find *no* TCO label
21:53:42 <fizzie> They call it "Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive" among friends.
21:55:05 <fizzie> This one just has a tiny "HD ready" sticker -- which is not actually even very glossy -- in the corner. But maybe I have already removed some; I probably would have, if they had garish colors or something.
21:55:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, my old one just had some on the base of the monitor, in grey/white
21:55:47 <AnMaster> iirc vista ready and TCO99
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21:56:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, also why is every monitor black around the edges these days
21:56:16 <AnMaster> I much prefered light grey or beige
21:56:33 <AnMaster> like my old samsung syncmaster (very long ago)
21:56:56 <AnMaster> it had adjustable height, unless you pay a lot these days, adjustable height also seems hard to find
21:57:04 <fizzie> Strange to call a 1920x1200 monitor "HD ready" anyway; I thought that -- around these parts, at least -- "HD ready" was the euphemism for the lower 1280x720 thing, with everything that has enough pixels for 1080p being called "Full HD".
21:57:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
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21:57:46 <fizzie> Hrm, I think all my monitors have adjustable height; can't be *that* uncommon. (Admittedly I haven't bought a monitor in the last few years. And there were some fixed-stand models around when I last looked, but not that many.)
21:57:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, this monitor is 1680x1050
21:58:05 <AnMaster> but that doesn't mean it is 19:9
21:58:06 <AnMaster> because
21:58:19 <AnMaster>   resolution:    90x88 dots per inch
21:58:23 <AnMaster> (from xdpyinfo)
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21:58:31 <AnMaster> (it's incorrect I believe)
21:59:12 <fizzie> Hm, the logo in fact looks like the "official" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_ready -- one. I guess it does HDCP and such then.
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22:01:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, really I don't want anything much larger than this. I already find the extra width a bit annoying
22:01:07 <pikhq> It would appear part of my problem is that church1 is not doing what you'd expect.
22:01:14 <pikhq> (namely, \f x -> f x)
22:01:24 <fizzie> Never trust organized religion, that's a good motto.
22:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is it doing instead?
22:01:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
22:01:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not evaluating its arguments.
22:01:55 <pikhq> \f x->()
22:01:59 -!- soupdragon has quit (Client Quit).
22:02:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, so disorganised and unorganised ones are okay?
22:02:20 <fizzie> Yes, in the sense that they get less harm done.
22:02:20 <Sgeo> Has anyone heard from ehird?
22:02:27 <pikhq> For curiosity's sake, I've gone ahead and made it strict in its arguments.
22:02:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, I haven't.
22:02:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about Buddhism?
22:02:55 <AnMaster> certainly organised, but hardly very harmful.
22:03:25 <fizzie> I don't know about buddhism... the dude with the smile sort of looks like he's plotting something.
22:04:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, they mention stuff like "don't belive everything I tell you, use some critical thought" and "each to his/her own" (the latter is more specifically: other religions are okay as long as they aren't causing harm to people)
22:05:16 <AnMaster> also wordings aren't exactly thouse
22:05:18 <AnMaster> those*
22:05:38 <fizzie> Yes, well, maybe that's just what they *say*. I'd be a bit wary.
22:06:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, still, better than most religions. In part it is more of a philosophy than a religion
22:07:53 <fizzie> "No matter what happens, never call on the government, the church, or any other massive controlling authority for help. They'll just send a brigade of soldiers to burn your entire village to the ground." -- The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clichés
22:08:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes that is games.
22:08:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, also link to that
22:08:39 <fizzie> http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html
22:08:51 <fizzie> I have a feeling http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CorruptChurch might link to it too.
22:09:03 <fizzie> (At least there are several links to the list from tvtropes.)
22:09:06 * AnMaster whips out w3m
22:09:15 <AnMaster> w3m -dump even
22:09:41 <AnMaster> why? no links
22:10:15 <AnMaster> err that is links as in <a>, not as in /usr/bin/links
22:10:42 -!- soupdragon has joined.
22:11:17 <fizzie> Yes, it's certainly safer than lynx/links -dumps for tvtropes.
22:11:53 <AnMaster> XD
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22:12:37 <pikhq> Well, that explains at least *some* things. church1's thunks are the only ones being called.
22:13:02 <pikhq> Somehow, it never ends up dethunking its arguments.
22:13:08 <pikhq> Even the one that it dethunks and calls.
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22:14:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, just tried lynx dump, it includes all the links at the end
22:14:55 <AnMaster> unacceptable
22:15:01 <fizzie> So does "links -dump" too.
22:15:04 <AnMaster>  ah
22:15:58 <fizzie> You can do "lynx -dump -nolist" though. Though w3m asciifies some things better.
22:16:14 <fizzie> (Also seems to use UTF-8 bullet-points for me by default.)
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22:17:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, and it seems my terminal uses bitstream vera not dejavu
22:23:03 -!- augur_ has joined.
22:23:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I played a bit of mario rpg recently, it was.... interesting...
22:24:01 <fizzie> I've played it a very very very tiny bit, too, but I've completely forgotten what it was like. (If you're talking about that SNES thing.)
22:25:08 <fizzie> (They do have those newer things too.)
22:25:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, snes of course
22:25:52 <AnMaster> there are newer rpgs?
22:26:04 <AnMaster> anyway I managed to get zsnes to produce a broken save
22:26:08 <AnMaster> so meh
22:26:09 <fizzie> There's the Paper Mario series.
22:26:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, remember that locking up mupen64plus
22:26:41 <fizzie> The first one is N64, second one GameCube, and third one for Wii.
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22:27:26 <fizzie> Also a couple of portable things named "Mario & Luigi: whatever"; one for the GBA and two for the DS.
22:27:40 <fizzie> If it's worth doing, it's worth doing more for even more money.
22:28:09 <AnMaster> what is paper mario about?
22:28:25 <fizzie> You rescue a princess (gasp!).
22:28:33 <AnMaster> well that's a given
22:29:04 <fizzie> I haven't played them, I've just heard-of.
22:29:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw number 30 on that list does *not* apply to mario rpg
22:29:39 <AnMaster> but that is due to mario of course
22:30:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, I doubt you can find any game to collect all of them. (Unless someone has explicitly had that as a goal. Hmm...)
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22:31:04 <AnMaster> heh
22:34:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, in rule 42, what is "FMVs"?
22:34:39 <fizzie> "Full Motion Video", I believe. Not often seen in SNES games, for obvious reasons.
22:34:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about zelda oot?
22:35:08 <AnMaster> as in when you first approach the castle town
22:35:18 <AnMaster> is that what it means
22:35:52 <fizzie> It means any precalculated/actually-videographed movie-like cutscenes that aren't rendered with the game engine.
22:36:22 <AnMaster> hm not rendering with the game engine would be rare wouldn't it?
22:37:16 <fizzie> Well, now... it's not that rare to have "properly rendered" 3D cutscenes. PSX RPGs at least seem to do it a lot; you can fit a lot of video on the discs.
22:37:51 <AnMaster> is there any emulator for those?
22:38:22 <AnMaster> oh wait, didn't chrono trigger for that newer device do something like it?
22:38:29 <AnMaster> was drawn, not rendered iirc
22:38:37 <fizzie> Yes, they added some animation clips.
22:38:45 <fizzie> I think the DS version includes those, actually.
22:38:57 <AnMaster> yes that is what I said
22:39:05 <AnMaster> the snes one is more original though!
22:39:17 <fizzie> The "newer device" I was thinking of was the Playstation 1.
22:39:25 <fizzie> That's where those chrono trigger videos were first seen.
22:39:26 <AnMaster> oh they ported it to that too?
22:40:15 <fizzie> They did. There wasn't that much new in the PS version, except those video clips.
22:40:23 <AnMaster> hm
22:40:40 <fizzie> The bonus world-areas in the DS version are DS-only, for example.
22:40:48 <AnMaster> bonus world?
22:40:50 <AnMaster> huh?
22:41:06 <AnMaster> I only played snes beyond the baasics
22:41:06 <fizzie> Lost Sanctum, Dimensional Vortex. Those two weren't in the SNES version.
22:41:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did you reach those?
22:42:08 <fizzie> You can go to Lost Sanctum after getting the wings for Epoch.
22:42:39 <AnMaster> what is there?
22:42:42 <fizzie> As for Dimensional Vortex, you have to complete the game once to get there.
22:42:54 <AnMaster> and what is there?
22:43:07 <fizzie> Lost Sanctum has a horrible number of really boring "fetch quest"-style things, which mainly involve incredible amounts of walking.
22:43:16 <fizzie> I think I did them all, and it was quite a chore.
22:43:38 <fizzie> You get all kinds of bits and pieces for reward there.
22:43:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, what time period was it?
22:44:30 <fizzie> It's in two; 65,000,000 B.C. and 600 A.D.
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22:44:38 <fizzie> And most of the walking comes from flipping between those two.
22:44:48 <AnMaster> ah
22:46:41 <fizzie> As for the dimensional vortex, that one sort-of is in the remaining three time periods (12000 B.C., 1000 A.D. and 2300 A.D.; I don't think 1999 counts); it's partially built from randomly selected maps from the "actual" game, plus some brand-new bits in the end.
22:47:50 <fizzie> Story-wise the Lost Sanctum adds nothing important (well, it's a village of surviving reptites, but it's not like they *mean* anything); the Dimensional Vortex is a some sort of tie-in to the Chrono Cross story.
22:49:41 <fizzie> You also get new items from those new bits, but, well, "meh".
22:50:30 <AnMaster> hm
22:50:48 <fizzie> There's an upgraded version of the Rainbow, for example.
22:50:55 <AnMaster> oh?
22:51:33 <fizzie> It has an attack power of 240 (compared to the Rainbow's 220) and does criticals 90 % of the time (compared to Rainbow's 70 %).
22:51:48 <AnMaster> mhm
22:52:08 <fizzie> And of course you get it from doing the final boss at the end of the Dimensional Vortex, so when you've gotten it, there's nothing in the whole game it won't be an overkill for.
22:52:19 <fizzie> There's a couple of related tvtropes tropes about this sort of thing. :p
22:52:41 <AnMaster> number 78 (pretty line syndrome) is at least not as common in snes rpgs. Some are slightly open-ended
22:52:57 <AnMaster> (I much prefer open-ended btw)
22:54:14 <fizzie> PC games -- well, the Elder Scrolls games, that is; I don't really know about much else -- have a bit of an edge in the open-endedness. In the console ones "open-ended" mostly seems to mean "just before finishing up the story, there's some free time to do sidequests".
22:54:30 <AnMaster> yeah :/
22:56:18 <pikhq> fizzie: It's very much a genre thing.
22:56:45 <fizzie> Yes. I sort-of like both, so I don't really mind.
22:56:59 -!- coppro has joined.
22:57:01 <fizzie> But that list really does contain some very common things.
22:57:05 <AnMaster> night all →
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23:14:42 <cpressey> I just heard one of the most horrific things I've ever heard playing on a radio in my life.
23:14:55 <cpressey> An "emo-coustic" cover of Van Halen's "Jump".
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