< 1264896077 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1264896122 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1264896311 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264896874 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264896927 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1264898092 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264898681 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: #dsdev on irc.blitzed.org exists < 1264901080 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1264901104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1264901403 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264901479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1264901744 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1264901769 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1264902388 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264902644 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1264903569 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1264903861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrgh... < 1264903875 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1264903878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, somewhere, a closure is returning its *bound variables*. < 1264903883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of a thunk. < 1264903930 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use assert? :P < 1264904116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thunk 0x6382a0 is not a valid thunk. 0x6382a0 = {tag = 4198720, union {func = 0x638300, data = 0x638300} < 1264904128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... A tag of 4198720. < 1264904147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: enum {THUNK_UNEVAL, THUNK_EVAL} tag; < 1264904834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, use valgrind < 1264904849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Interacts very poorly with my code. < 1264904851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, disable the gc for a bit so you can use valgrind to track this < 1264904868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about mudflap then? < 1264904895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is that somehow, someone is trying to dethunk a closure. < 1264904896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I found valgrind a must-have when coding C < 1264904903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a thunk? < 1264904913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thunks Sgeo on the head < 1264904914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT! < 1264904940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1264904946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct thunk {enum {THUNK_UNEVAL, THUNK_EVAL} tag;union {closure func;void *data;};} < 1264905009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what is the value of those enum values < 1264905013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, their integer values < 1264905018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 0, 1. < 1264905034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C enums is a poor substitute for atoms < 1264905042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enum {THUNK_UNEVAL, THUNK_EVAL} is the enum declaration... < 1264905104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway without a memory checker I doubt you can find this < 1264905109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway,* < 1264905121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's really simple. < 1264905125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1264905132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is an issue that a *type system* would catch. < 1264905136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1264905157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unless it is due to the gc reclaiming when it shouldn't < 1264905158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, 0x6382a0 is a pointer to a *closure*, not a thunk. < 1264905158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1264905172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well that explains things < 1264905176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you using void* < 1264905181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not you should get warnings < 1264905183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C < 1264905198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using void* when it makes sense, yes. < 1264905204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that explains it < 1264905205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dethunk results in a void*. < 1264905216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you won't get type checking when doing void* < 1264905225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm well aware. < 1264905232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, in fact, where my bug is coming from. < 1264905233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the *point* of void* eve < 1264905234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even* < 1264905255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, when using void* think not just twice, think at least 5 times < 1264905264 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Active Worlds SDK represents instances as void* < 1264905264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void* is necessary for polymorphism, and it makes things very difficult. < 1264905267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, I do not know < 1264905298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is it? < 1264905315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not use a structure containing a void* < 1264905347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you can get an outer level check at least < 1264905348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a couple. They are closure and thunk. < 1264905372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, why not use a tagged struct < 1264905403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be much agony. < 1264905413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this would be similar to/inspired by tagged words in lisp compilers and tagged tuples in erlang programs < 1264905429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am doing nasty things to C ATM. < 1264905439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, doing those would be nasty too < 1264905442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there you are < 1264905446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really → < 1264905448 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 'C' your little ass-to-mouth whore? < 1264905506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for anything that *doesn't* return a thunk < 1264905525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aside from my thunks, which absolutely should not return a thunk) < 1264906293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know what thunk is supposed to mean >.> < 1264906618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's a lambda that takes 0 arguments. < 1264906620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In essence. < 1264906650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main.c:99: error: void value not ignored as it ought to be < 1264906657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type-checker doing something. < 1264906694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's the point? < 1264906740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy evaluation. < 1264906818 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-107-169.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264907027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main.c:360:1: error: unterminated argument list invoking macro "global_thunk" < 1264907030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, thanks GCC. < 1264907039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally needed to know which line the EOF was on. < 1264907044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not where the macro invocation was. < 1264907058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be totally useless to my attempts to figure out what you're talking about. < 1264907143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees everything nice and terminated. < 1264907150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks GCC is smoking something. < 1264907642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I went ahead and made as much of it as I could typesafe. And now I get no type errors. < 1264907650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray? < 1264908980 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264909304 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1264909621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is still amused by the lambdas with thunks that compile them from S and K. < 1264909835 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1264909942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a way, I am JIT'ing parts of this program... < 1264909946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264910928 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is practically uncyberstalkable < 1264910936 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even knowing my real name is useless < 1264910960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My nick name suffices. < 1264910982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the first result on Google my Wikipedia User: page? < 1264910987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, so it is. < 1264911002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a yogurt product? < 1264911002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Followed by a pastebin and some nomic stuff. < 1264911012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is playing with pipl.com < 1264911018 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.forallvent.info/uploads/media/Ross_Stanton_Putting_microbes_to_work_-_Part_II.pdf < 1264911023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Abuh? < 1264911044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PIKHQ in a yoghurt product. Other studies have identified the presence of whey protein-derived antimicrobial pep- tides, which were released following ..." < 1264911049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in < 1264911058 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, you're in a yoghurt product! Awesome < 1264911184 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1264911188 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a yogurt product? < 1264911191 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L@L < 1264911236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latl? Laughing atout loud? < 1264911267 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-109-238.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264911283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: XD < 1264911422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone say something < 1264911428 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER < 1264911429 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, shoot. < 1264911430 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm +Deaf < 1264911449 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you haven't confirmed that you're not by now, you are :P < 1264911481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for people to assume they can talk behind his back, and repeatedly refreshes the log < 1264911502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION undeafens self < 1264911520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was fun < 1264911684 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1264913253 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1264913276 0 :lifthrasiir!xwhxicIL@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264913368 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1264913369 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1264913590 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1264913637 0 :lifthrasiir!QhgXXXib@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264913916 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1264914008 0 :lifthrasiir!OZHCXvk4@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264914127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1264914501 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1264914563 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264915824 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264916397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is better/worse, Java or C#? < 1264916412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About on par with each other, really. < 1264916425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# has some advantages over Java, Java has some advantages over C#... < 1264916444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're rather similar languages, design-wise. < 1264916452 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're both utterly insufferable ^^ < 1264916463 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264916471 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of like C# < 1264916474 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# is a nice language. Java is a nicer runtime < 1264916478 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/nice/nicer/ < 1264916486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I haven't really encountered material about Java's advantages. What are they? < 1264916496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ubiquitous. < 1264916501 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1264916508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a massive one. < 1264916561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's come full cycle to everyone hating on it, but it has lots of advantages. For starters, it's everywhere. You do not need a Windows box to get every feature of Java. Decent applets are a huge plus. Standard, direct access to hardware. < 1264916649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not an exceptional language, though. < 1264916653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor, really, is C#. < 1264916660 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264916677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are really hung up on bad models < 1264916690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# gives you proper lambda instead of the hack of "object with a single method", though. < 1264916766 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, as I said, C# has nicer language features < 1264916768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bad models"? < 1264916806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: like the lack of anything that isn't in object < 1264916810 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in an object < 1264919555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Java has things that aren't objects. < 1264919562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like int. < 1264919577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I meant the lack of globals < 1264919599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it adds nothing to the languages < 1264919616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact makes them worse < 1264919629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since people stick their global state in a class, call it a singleton, and think they're clever < 1264919666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :singleton is possibly the single best example of an anti-pattern that doesn't even get an excuse due to the grandfather rule < 1264919685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, singleton is pretty retarded. < 1264919708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Objects allow you to prevent global state. So, let's pretend to have global state." < 1264919735 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goto is probably the biggest anti-pattern ever, but only because there is better technology < 1264919754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/goto/goto for primary flow control/ < 1264919767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is 0 excuse for singletong < 1264919770 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/g// < 1264919780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goto for primary flow control has been considered an antipattern for a few *decades* now. < 1264919788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point exactly < 1264919796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said 'ever', didn't I? < 1264919813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when it was originally conceived (i.e. when computers were first used), it was valid < 1264919821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The debate is over whether or not it's acceptable for exceptional cases in C... (jumping to a single point of cleanup before returning) < 1264919835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1264919847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm of the position that goto is not automatically a sin < 1264919860 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It stopped being valid about the time that the compiler was invented. < 1264919868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1264919870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Automatically? No. < 1264919877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you damned better be careful. < 1264919883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1264919922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like global state. < 1264919928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep! < 1264920059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, I wish I could get accepted to University every week for the rest of my life. I've felt like a big sigh these past few days < 1264920109 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1264921359 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has an awesome (read: horrible) idea: PSOX.NET! < 1264921395 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1264921673 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:06:20] stop using a combine harvester when a pair of scissors will do < 1264921677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, wrong channel < 1264921697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, possibly good advice < 1264921712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1264921932 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew i was doing something wrong trimming my moustache, but i wasnt sure what < 1264922092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: is it upside down? < 1264922117 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not unless im standing on the ceiling < 1264922140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad. you might have started a new fashion. < 1264922436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The latter. Well, the former too, I guess. < 1264922492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No comment on PSOX.NET? < 1264922498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not worth commenting on < 1264922509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too horrible to contemplate < 1264922534 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I can't remember what PSOX is, and I'm trying to cover that up < 1264922764 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favorite google result for psox is: http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/anagrams/PARALINGUA.cgi?article=Taschoskeluipa < 1264923067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/PSOX < 1264923098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was abandoned due to lack of interest, even among esolangers < 1264923143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, that thing < 1264923409 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1264924395 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1264924799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1264924800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1264924822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1264924847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So - and I shall take up this theme again later - wherever you are to locate your notions of validity or worth or rationality or justification or even objectivity, it cannot rely on an argument that is universally compelling to all physically possible minds. < 1264924847 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-193-181.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264924847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor can you ground validity in a sequence of justifications that, beginning from nothing, persuades a perfect emptiness. < 1264924847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there might be argument sequences that would compel any neurologically intact human - like the argument I use to make people let the AI out of the box1 - but that is hardly the same thing from a philosophical perspective. < 1264924857 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/rn/no_universally_compelling_arguments/ < 1264925030 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1264926427 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264927313 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1264928110 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-225-28.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1264929200 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264930664 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1264930717 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: * I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc * < 1264931289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: The latter. Well, the former too, I guess. <-- context? < 1264931540 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1264932775 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1264932985 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i've ever wanted globals in java < 1264932990 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a silly thing to want < 1264933260 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global as in outside of class scope? < 1264933353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264933366 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i don't think i've ever needed global state < 1264933373 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having everything inside a class feels very much like a Java thing, yes :P < 1264933388 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you ever use global state for? < 1264933437 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully nothing, and if you really need it, you just have to create a dummy class with public, static variables < 1264933624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that's the singleton pattern the conversation i'm responding to was mocking. < 1264933676 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static variables are weird, if i need "globals", they will obviously just be global in some context, so i'll just wrap the whole thing into some sort of object. < 1264934034 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1264934863 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to avoid using such dummy classes, yes < 1264942941 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1264942941 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1264942968 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Context was you own comment, why ask me? It was about that NSOCK thing, anyway. < 1264942982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah that < 1264943005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so you might use it? well okay. It won't happen straight away, lots to do at university currently < 1264943054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might, though there's no shortage of other improvements fungot is lacking. < 1264944068 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1264944115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: So... how does this new ircd feel like to you? You know, since you're a piece of code too. < 1264944115 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: teh tv one. i must get the hell out of those is a field if and only if the strings are tuned a fifth apart < 1264944158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must have made him a bit confused; that didn't make much sense. < 1264944956 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1264945111 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264945426 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... By default irssi has TLS cert verification disabled. And at least one of servers in IPv6 rotation is busted (does not respond). < 1264946109 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264946182 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264947690 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1264947832 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1264948602 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1264948811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hopefully nothing, and if you really need it, you just have to create a dummy class with public, static variables < 1264948841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc this argument chain started with someone pointing out that that possibility is a horrible hack < 1264948870 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, no swat < 1264948872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to allowing actual globals < 1264948890 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I tend to avoid using that hackish solution anyway < 1264948935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives FireFly a whack with the saucepan instead ===\__/ < 1264948941 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow < 1264948945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been unused for so long < 1264949936 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Java doesn't support globals for same reason it doesn't support functions... < 1264950008 0 :soupdragon!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1264950594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really wants to know the argument Eliezer uses to get the human to let the AI out of the box < 1264950897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah especially how much it is a cheat... < 1264950911 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that it is a cheat though < 1264950925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and moreover, whether it would have worked if used by a real AI < 1264950929 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he probably just thinks on his feat.. < 1264950938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*feet? < 1264950944 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he said that he thought he could do it, so he put himself to the test < 1264950964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1264950965 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he got it right for the first few times, but he couldn't do it for cases with much higher amounts of money < 1264950976 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not just the 2/2 success rate < 1264951028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the tests on others are much more impressive < 1264951043 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tests on others? < 1264951117 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264951124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand how applying the test to _yourself_ can be done rationally, at all < 1264951141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially not more than once < 1264951174 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testing your self it means like you think you can do something -- so try and do it, to make sure < 1264951190 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you mean specifically AI box yourself? < 1264951197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AI box of course < 1264951207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else are we talking about? < 1264951217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah when I said he tested himself.. the thing he is testing is his ability to win the AI box game (against someone else) < 1264951254 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264951273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um then something is wrong here... i haven't heard about him ever _losing_ it, so what's this "he couldn't do it for cases with much higher amounts of money" thing? < 1264951289 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh he wrote about losing it on lesswrong < 1264951298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1264951309 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try and find it, < 1264951349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this must have been after i last heard about it, i guess.. < 1264951440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't read lesswrong that much < 1264951456 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1264951477 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264951493 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just "found" it very recently.. < 1264951558 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figure the argument can't be that great or he'd have convinced himself and would not be suspicious of AIs. < 1264951576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh that's an issue too < 1264951581 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1264951610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: if it's an argument that can be applied generally, then it should be possible to apply it against EY himself < 1264951631 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but why would he not be suspicious of AIs if he knew they could convince him to let them out? < 1264951633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so it should possible to convince _him_ to let the AI out < 1264951641 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just seems like another reason to be scared < 1264951656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very meta < 1264951692 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean he ould have convinced himself during the first experiment < 1264951739 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*would < 1264951777 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is frustrating I thought the one I was looking for was in the coming of age series but it's not < 1264951801 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think the cooling behaviour is because of better airflow, though it may be a sign that your battery is charging continuously, which probably isn't good < 1264951819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, better airflow likely < 1264951836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, computer reports it isn't charing < 1264951839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charging* < 1264951846 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1264951848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it hasn't hit the "start charging again" level < 1264951874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, using the tp_smapi module you can set thinkpads to only start charging once you go below a certain level < 1264951915 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were three more AI-Box experiments besides the ones described on the linked page, which I never got around to adding in. People started offering me thousands of dollars as stakes - "I'll pay you $5000 if you can convince me to let you out of the box." They didn't seem sincerely convinced that not even a transhuman AI could make them let it out - they were just curious - but I was tempted by the money. So, after investigating to make sure < 1264951915 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could afford to lose it, I played another three AI-Box experiments. I won the first, and then lost the next two. And then I called a halt to it. I didn't like the person I turned into when I started to lose. < 1264951919 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/up/shut_up_and_do_the_impossible/ < 1264952010 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says also 'I did it the hard way' which I assumed was the case < 1264952013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would "the linked page", be http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox, the top google hit for "AI box experiment"? < 1264952042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good grief, not adding that in there seems intellectually dishonest to me. < 1264952056 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1264952124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: the top page on the internet which people reach if they _search_ for "AI box experiment" contains no mention of these "three more" experiments. i find that intellectually dishonest. < 1264952133 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1264952160 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you ask him why he'll probably convince you that it isn't :P < 1264952185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1264952404 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1264952581 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1264952662 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't like? :9 < 1264952705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've just started reading your link < 1264952724 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's you lots fault that I read this blog by the way!! < 1264952730 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not out of my own personal choice < 1264952771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well given that i learned about this blog here, and do _not_ read it regularly, i find that claim somewhat dubious :D < 1264953749 0 :facsimile!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1264953813 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by facsimile)) < 1264953816 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :soupdragon < 1264954561 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264955311 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people on youtube are so fucking stupid < 1264955349 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuk!!!! < 1264955358 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first reply < 1264955499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fu queue < 1264955793 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264955833 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"far queue"? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/05/19/bofh_discovers_voice_recognition/ < 1264957209 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264957677 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1264958242 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1264958244 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1264958321 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1264958386 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264958392 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1264958393 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1264959049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Collection 1892 reclaimed 301312 bytes ---> heapsize = 356352 bytes < 1264959060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the most inefficient cat program ever! < 1264959363 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-239-211.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1264959416 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1264959549 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: most inefficient cat program? sounds like a challenge! < 1264959569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, I could *make* it more efficient if I wanted to. < 1264959590 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*inefficient? < 1264959637 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have probably seen worse one... < 1264959653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GC_DONT_GC=1. < 1264959661 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the challenge is to find the language that makes the least efficient most efficient cat program < 1264959788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With GC_DONT_GC, it uses 466 megs of RAM. < 1264960009 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... This cat program I found looks pretty funky (I wrote it back in 2007)... Obivously uncommented, but at least variables have somewhat descriptive names... < 1264960072 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-181.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264960076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it leak memory like a sieve? < 1264960086 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it does. :-) < 1264960105 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with the language, there's no choice but to leak memory like a sieve... :-) < 1264960110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, "all malloc, no free"? :P < 1264960160 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup... < 1264960169 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no gc either... :-) < 1264960330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1264960695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we need for real slowness is a language in which the entire input and output are each treated as a single number < 1264960710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no way to modify numbers faster than decrement/increment < 1264960748 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and preferrably only in peano arithmetic < 1264960749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, critically for cat, you cannot do direct copying of input number to output < 1264960762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's even crazier than the entire input and output being treated as a single function. < 1264960763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly they are in different formats < 1264960769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264960786 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :input in base-pi, output in base-e < 1264960805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1264960843 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to use anything beyond simple integral bases, that would be really interesting to grok < 1264960868 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even -1/0/1 trinary/ternary is esoteric enough to be painful < 1264960880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's very... Non-trivial. < 1264960908 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/bases.html this looks relevant < 1264960965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the entire input and output a single function isn't that bad for lazy-K, precisely because of laziness < 1264960966 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case anyone wants to take a look at that program: http://pastebin.ca/1773280 < 1264960996 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you'd need some nice encoding to map stream-of-bytes to whole numbers... the trivial base-256 interpretation doesn't work well with streams of zeroes, for instance < 1264961010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah. < 1264961038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And given that I'm trying for a subset of Lazy K... Works just fine. < 1264961063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*Trying*. It seems that something's amiss in the infinite list.) < 1264961094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: the thing we discussed on the wiki a little while ago should work modified for this: base 256 with digit 256 instead of 0 < 1264961147 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks like I never bothered to actually do anything with input in my single-combinator language, but there're some stubs for it (was going to work just like lazy k) < 1264961156 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i.e. base 257? < 1264961175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: no! the multiplication is by 256 at each step < 1264961176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program that generates an infinite list of As and Bs works just fine, but anything with input seems borken. < 1264961219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the digits are 1-256. this allows you to distinguish strings of different length cleanly < 1264961230 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, does that really work? < 1264961264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. there's even a wikipedia article < 1264961302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Unary, wp link at the end < 1264961377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sweet. It would seem to be a bug in my parser. < 1264961393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I strip out all irrelevant chars, it works just fine. < 1264961443 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in that program thoese stands for that codepoint (yes, Unicode abuse). :-P < 1264961547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the prime number generator managed to get up to 2.5G. < 1264961559 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: cool < 1264961585 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee, Chrome's frozen again < 1264961622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder with these temperatures < 1264961691 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone remember about that crytographic interpreter? < 1264961707 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea was that you give it some encrypted program and it doesn't understand it, but it prints out the right answer < 1264961719 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't that been proven impossible? < 1264961721 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you can't just look at a backtrace to see what the program was < 1264961728 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! is there an impossibility proof? < 1264961758 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know for sure, or if it's just generally considered impossible < 1264961801 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::S < 1264961803 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the interpreter needs to "understand" the program in order to run it, which basically means it isn't encrypted at all < 1264961846 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow: from valgrind: "==13568== total heap usage: 2,090,158 allocs, 2,090,158 frees, 125,608,436 bytes allocated". And that's for 80 bytes to copy! < 1264961872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some algorithm encryption methods but they are limited in power < 1264961901 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Probably good part of that isn't permanently used... < 1264961913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other side, i recall there was some impossibility result to the effect that there had to be properties of the original program source you could detect beyond its behavior < 1264961949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. no encryption could hide everything except the I->O mapping < 1264961998 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CTRL+C'ing it after 80 bytes: ==13574== in use at exit: 206,768 bytes in 13,669 blocks < 1264962012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there still seemed to me to be a large open area between those extremes, though < 1264962670 0 :ztirf!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1264962993 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can extend the non-integer base numeral systems to bijective ones like you can for integer bases < 1264963035 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds bad though: "The base e is the most economical choice of radix β > 1 (Hayes 2001), where the radix economy is measured as the product of the radix and the length of the string of symbols needed to express a given range of values.", we are after all aiming for low efficiency here < 1264963244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the differences between bases are probably tiny when you factor in the number of bits to encode one digit. < 1264963260 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264963276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, for integer bases they cancel out exactly, i should think < 1264963346 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for power-of-two bases it will be exactly the same, otherwise there will be some waste if you use an integral number of bits for each digit < 1264963362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"==19952== malloc/free: 0 allocs, 0 frees, 0 bytes allocated. < 1264963363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1264963373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheheheh. < 1264964265 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it is _slow_: For copying 1024 bytes: user time 24m20.143s... < 1264964437 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And estimating from earlier test, it needed about 2.5MB of memory... < 1264964550 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And total allocations being something like 15GB... < 1264965237 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing: Google chrome makes like 10 processes and splits your tabs amongst them < 1264965250 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad thing: it puts 90% of the tabs into one of the processes < 1264965290 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It groups them by site, doesn't it? < 1264965305 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264965340 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1264965355 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-239-211.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1264965448 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264965597 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Pataprogramming.... is that like Forth in any way? < 1264965703 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and despite that process having 100 tabs from the same site in it, it still gets loaded with a few more < 1264965733 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It really makes the whole thing of "If one tab crashes or freezes, the rest are ok" a lie < 1264965743 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I'm lucky that I didn't open 100 tabs from each of 10 forums and have most of them end up in one Chrome process < 1264965766 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, it's true with a few dozen open < 1264965771 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also in the list of ideas, it is mentioned the magic system in RPG, that using it like that. While I think that won't work well in that RPG, the Icosahedral RPG uses something that is almost similar, but not really.... < 1264965812 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I found the log now. < 1264965883 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you prefer, you could reprogram Google Chrome (Chromium for the generic/open-source version) to allow you to select which tabs in which processes < 1264965929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, if you do that, give me a copy < 1264965936 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1264966072 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1264966659 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1264966693 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-181.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264966755 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No one knows what happened to ehird? < 1264966766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1264966789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is that skull? < 1264966866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION concludes that zzo38 is a headhunter picking us off one by one. poor ehird. < 1264966942 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1264966958 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reality, I don't actually know either. < 1264966972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you would say that, wouldn't you. < 1264967030 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably make a program to determine if ehird's been absent like this in the past. < 1264967092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he was, but not this long (2 weeks today?) < 1264967108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he didn't want to explain why < 1264967125 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you just look it up the logs? Maybe you need to read each file to check using regular expressions in each file < 1264967125 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he's starting to... get a life! *shrugs* < 1264967212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehird. Life. *Right*. < 1264967223 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a suggestion :P < 1264967821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders where the bottleneck is in his horridly inefficient code. < 1264967841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the looks of things, its the fact that S and K get dethunked for everything. < 1264967851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but you got it working? < 1264967922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The parser is broken and I'm not sure why. < 1264968087 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of ignoring characters not in "SKI()", it... Returns. < 1264968144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paste? < 1264968182 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what if you read input as bijective base-256, then convert to a base-pi quaternary floating-point, accept output as a base-e trinary floating-point number, then output it again as bijective base-256 < 1264968206 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, nice peano stuff in the middle to prevent too much efficiency < 1264968259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peano stuff + floating point feels so ugly < 1264968270 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, that's the point < 1264968284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was afraid of that < 1264968348 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could figure out a specific number of decimals (would that be pinals/natals for base-pi/base-e?) that would represent all integers unambiguously, that would get rid of the floating-point at least < 1264968394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudden intuition says that might actually be a difficult problem < 1264968433 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but quickcheck doesn't immediately object to only going down to 1/pi and 1/e < 1264968474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1264968764 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, for the least significant digit you have (x*pi + rest), where 0 <= rest < pi, and x is some pinary number (i.e. the non-least significant digits) < 1264968861 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: * I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc * < 1264968862 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you choose a digit to minimize (rest - {0,1,2} * pi^0), and I think that remainder is at least less than 1 < 1264968892 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, x*pi is not at all guaranteed to be an integer, so rounding on that thing does something tricky < 1264968940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd think base pi digits are 0,1,2,3 < 1264968947 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could just brute-force it and keep outputing decimals until the result when converted back and rounded produces the original input < 1264968953 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, that's what I meant actually < 1264968961 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base-e has 0,1,2 though < 1264968998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be easier to just truncate down < 1264969038 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rounding operation could be a lot of things, really < 1264969155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, really you just start at the highest power pi^k <= n, subtract the right multiple of pi^k and iterate with the remainder < 1264969174 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could specified as something "clever" instead of floor/ceil/trunc/round, but very creative rounding functions might require corresponding modifications in the conversion code < 1264969200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always leaving something < pi^k for the next step, so < 1 after k = 0 < 1264969211 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the question is when to stop, since you're not guaranteed to ever reach zero with the remainder < 1264969242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1 is enough if you round... up, i think < 1264969325 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, look at that, with ceiling, it passes quickcheck when stopping at k = 0 < 1264969369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you are guaranteed never to reach zero, as soon as you have any digit /= 0 for power > 0. because pi is transcendental. < 1264969395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is e, btw. < 1264969401 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1264969488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you use an exact representation. < 1264969536 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, and that will cause problems for large inputs < 1264969572 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would basically need an arbitrary-precision floating point library to ensure that the conversion from arbitrary-precision integer to base-pi is correct < 1264969579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264969611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well given that the statest goal is to be as slow as possible... :D < 1264969615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stated < 1264969662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, computable reals instead of floating point, perhaps < 1264969699 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any slowness that is not required for correctness I think is cheating, but this seems to be required for correctness :D < 1264969701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the transcendentality should mean you never get in trouble with comparing for equality there < 1264969759 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might become one of the only languages where implementing 'cat' is subject to rounding errors :) < 1264969759 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1264969793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with floating point it might be problematic to determine what precision is necessary to avoid rounding errors < 1264969799 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cat' is basically implementing a base-pi to base-e conversion, by whatever means the language provides for maths < 1264969819 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There will be a tutorial for this language, right? < 1264969827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been following the chat < 1264969972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far i've been thinking of unbounded bf + weird i/o, if only because bf has the right relationship to peano arithmetic < 1264969972 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals sound like it could work with something lambda calculus-like < 1264969972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is of course boring < 1264969972 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In your opinion, in a Forth program which way is better for the CHAR command working, as in the example 0 CHAR *42 . . is it better the way gforth does it or in the other way? < 1264970005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right they may have to be implemented inside the language for doing the base-pi to base-e conversion < 1264970029 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: we've just partially covered the I/O system so far, what the actual language will look like is completely unknown < 1264970066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while they also need to be used in the actual interpreter for converting between bytes and language format < 1264970067 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been leaning towards something LC-like, just because that makes it easy to make lists and integers hard < 1264970146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has the disadvantage that it's easy to avoid using unary other than in the final encoding/decoding < 1264970147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is LC-like? < 1264970196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda calculus. < 1264970199 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1264970201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "easy". it _is_ possible to implement binary in LC, after all < 1264970207 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you would like unary to be required somewhere, since the numbers will be huge < 1264970218 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : might become one of the only languages where implementing 'cat' is subject to rounding errors :) < 1264970220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees no good reason for LINQ to Entities not to support .Single() grr < 1264970221 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is this about? < 1264970228 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the rest of the long discussion above :P) < 1264970231 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: shh, it doesn't exist yet < 1264970238 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... it sounds interesting :( < 1264970263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked in ##csharp , and they basically said I could just use .Count or make a list < 1264970263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: we're pondering how to make a language where cat is intrinsically horribly slow < 1264970263 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is its main concept? < 1264970265 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1264970278 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that's one way to design a language.. < 1264970298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I saw them talking about base e and base pi < 1264970301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, input and output are encoded using a huge number in base pi and e, respectively. < 1264970363 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tricky part is *intrinsically*, but it's partially solved by having the interpreter translate input and output into inefficient esoteric formats < 1264970363 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop having equally long nicks both starting with o :( < 1264970363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cat needs to convert - but the most efficient arithmetic operations are increment/decrement < 1264970365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHA < 1264970372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER < 1264970383 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, for me, they're differently colored nicks < 1264970390 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1264970401 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want my IRC window to look like a rainbow < 1264970437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither, i chose a color scheme with nicks black on white < 1264970457 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :white.. background? ._. < 1264970461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1264970465 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's.. horrible < 1264970466 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you could have de/increment-base-pi and de/increment-base-e where each function just interprets an internal number differently (i.e. you can do base-e operations on the number you received as base-pi) < 1264970466 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO < 1264970482 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that's enough to achieve anything < 1264970497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1264970512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan? < 1264970532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that base-pi and base-e are both intrinsically _ambiguous_ representations... < 1264970532 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that system you would not have access to the actual representations, except that it's place/value and the operations do carrying etc based on the "base" of the operation < 1264970548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _really_ don't want something to be interpreted as both :D < 1264970587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION interprets oerjan  < 1264970607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except of course we've mostly elected to use "greedy" representations, i guess < 1264970621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't elect anything this year < 1264970631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maximal most significant digits) < 1264970633 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, if there's a 3 digit in the base-e representation, that's just 3*e^i, and a base-e operation would do something to normalize that when it happens to touch the number < 1264970640 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I'm electing to be unproductive to this channel :/ < 1264970657 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base-pi-as-base-e is the tricky case since base-pi has another digit < 1264970678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hey someone has to do the puns when i'm actually discussing < 1264970684 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the tricky part is proving that this is a complete set of operations < 1264970748 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1264970755 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since the base is not integral, you can't just "carry" the overdigits (i.e. in base-10, a 10 could just be carried into the next digit, no such luck if the digit is 3 and the base is 2.78) < 1264970760 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1264970780 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the quaternary idea? < 1264970783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know how non-integral bases work :( < 1264970789 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: base-pi is quaternary < 1264970793 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0,1,2,3 :) < 1264970795 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1264970803 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant quaternary as in quaternions < 1264970808 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be much more interesting :D < 1264970811 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably slower too < 1264970813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: messily < 1264970858 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that I've mostly grokked base-pi maybe base-ijk can be the next one to try < 1264970862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the point of octal? Why specify 3 bits per digit? < 1264970881 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how can I learn base pi? < 1264970907 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-integer_representation < 1264970918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's the highest power-of-two base that doesn't require you to invent new digits? < 1264970937 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1264970939 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ty < 1264971036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also reasonable unit sizes, such as bytes of 9 bits, or words of 36 bits, are nicely represented by a fixed number of octal digits. < 1264971042 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1264971058 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bytes of 9 bits? < 1264971089 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooo, how about this though: all internal arithmetic is based on a *different* transcendental base - I'm not holding my hopes up on making that actually work, but what if you can only do arithmetic by reintrepreting those base-e/base-pi numbers as base-q, for some esoteric q < 1264971108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempted to execute LostKng.lazy. < 1264971124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It segfaults the official Lazy K interpreter. < 1264971128 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-20-227.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264971137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is only half able to follow olsner at this time < 1264971148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If your words are 36 bits, it is nice to have bytes of 9 bits so that you get an integer number of bytes in a word. < 1264971162 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are there words of 36 bits? < 1264971167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack overflow in the parser. < 1264971222 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the input number is sum(digit[j] * pi^j), but arithmetic operations read and write as sum(digit[j] * q^j) - same digits, different meaning < 1264971234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i am usually thinking of octal as an older cousin of hexidecimal, from the time when it wasn't a given that computer address lengths should themselves be powers of 2. i'm not sure how historically accurate that is... < 1264971247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "This word length was just long enough to represent positive and negative integers to an accuracy of ten decimal digits (35 bits would have been the minimum)" is Wikipedia's unsourced rationale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36-bit_word_length < 1264971277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All because he doesn't make the parser tail-recursive. < 1264971284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course it's divisible by six, and there were those six-bit character encodings. < 1264971313 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to calculate an output number base-q, but the output routine reads the digits as base-e (with some kind of handling of overdigits, since q > e) < 1264971334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hey getting tail recursion right is hard in lazy languages... < 1264971363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The parser of the lazy language? < 1264971369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is written in a strict language?' < 1264971373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1264971377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(namely C++) < 1264971383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then not < 1264971385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan how is tail recursion a concept in a lazy langeag? < 1264971398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: You can still tail recurse. < 1264971401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just doesn't mean much. < 1264971406 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it doesn't mean anything < 1264971410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a concept? < 1264971428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it is. < 1264971466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that the strictness of things also comes into it. < 1264971471 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, it's now a language where I have no idea whatsoever how to write a 'cat' program in it < 1264971574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION officially runs away from this language screaming < 1264971580 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264971597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like the appropriate thing to do < 1264971628 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you're still here < 1264971640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say i was going to run far < 1264971643 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1264971652 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, you may have a laptop < 1264971668 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, technically i have. i just never move it. < 1264971694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My laptop tends to move between the table next to my bed and my lap < 1264971743 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264971751 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, implementing an increment operation on non-integral-base numbers seems kind of tricky, maybe it should be up to the program to handle that then < 1264971842 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, you can't let the program interpet numbers in a base that's convenient to it < 1264971882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this an increment by one or increment by base? < 1264971889 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increment by base doesn't sound tricky at all < 1264971896 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be by one, of course < 1264971905 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all integers actually < 1264971921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :increment by base is just as tricky as increment by one, just shifted one position < 1264971949 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oh, yes, the first position is base^0 which is an integer < 1264972005 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1264972019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K: You too can use 1.5G of RAM to compute 2^150! < 1264972079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^150! is a rather large number, after all. < 1264972094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i say! < 1264972098 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1264972133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^150, not fac(2^150). < 1264972176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1264972188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'@'@::**:*:*:** < 1264972222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 15 seconds of 100% CPU usage. < 1264972262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why '@'@ there? < 1264972289 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it doesn't optimize the linear form, as I've oft said < 1264972315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so you were *cheating*. Well, then. < 1264972365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You thought I'd write something like "::**:*:*" instead of "::::****" manually? :-P < 1264972386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You never know, about people. < 1264972395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose not < 1264972438 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1264973437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where is the source to that tool? < 1264973534 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't you take a copy of it last time we talked about it? < 1264973549 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1264975612 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1264977052 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264977358 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1264978574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1264979494 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1264980254 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, I caused an assertion failure in mpfr since I exceeded the maximum number of bits (actually, an integer overflow in the precision variable) < 1264980312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's rather curious how little the garbage collector actually frees. < 1264980515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is contemplating how PSOX.NET would work < 1264980522 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely different from PSOX < 1264980567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would seem that all my thunks retained values in their closure even after being allocated. < 1264980580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning the poor, poor garbage collector couldn't collect much garbage. < 1264980687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION collects pikhq < 1264980688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for other memory leaks. < 1264980891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Down to 53 megabytes to compute 2^150. < 1264980906 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1264980910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is smaller by a few orders of magnitude. < 1264981181 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whose was that interesting language "Clue" being discussed uh.. yesterday, I think? < 1264981197 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine < 1264981201 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1264981204 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a public build < 1264981243 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once i make the parser, i'll prolly put the interp up on the wiki < 1264981252 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also once i've cleaned it up a bit < 1264981279 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exam in 7 hours, after that i have a month of not being insanely busy, so might have the time < 1264981296 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1264981305 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, good luck with the exam < 1264981377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multivariate calculus, probably my weakest spot in all the land < 1264981415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: what's difficult about it? < 1264981443 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok what about Solomonoff induction? < 1264981450 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly the part where i actually need to integrate something :P < 1264981453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding Clue < 1264981458 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay yeaah integration is very hard < 1264981465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with that < 1264981527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you integrate log x? :D lbh hfr vagrtengvba ol cnegf ol erjevgvat vg nf bar gvzrf ybt k < 1264981569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how mandelbrot set is uncomputable, but you can still approximate it to very fine accuracy < 1264981578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Solomonoff induction is also uncomputable.. < 1264981585 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err umm. no, i don't remember < 1264981588 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can probably compute it to very fine accuracy < 1264981616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sounds interesting. I wish I had math courses beyond high school calculus < 1264981644 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main thing multivariable calculus does is introduce the partial-d? < 1264981659 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have dy/dx and partial-dy/partial-dx now < 1264981678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then in more advanced calculus you get deltay/deltax < 1264981679 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to sleep, nighty < 1264981697 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1264981806 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what I mean about solomonoff induction :( < 1264981863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we prove basic results on vector field potentials, and then there's the theorem about generalizing substitution for multivariate functions, the course is not actually about integrals, that's just what i'm afraid of < 1264981887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, rot13.lazy runs in constant (low) space now... < 1264981909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe I'm at the point where any memory leaks are the fault of the executed program. < 1264981926 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the substitution thing is not proven. the course is sort of a mix of useful stuff for physicists and such, and of more rigorous stuff < 1264981948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ahh you do proper maths < 1264981961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're lucky, < 1264981964 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, converting to and from these non-integral bases was quite slow indeed < 1264981984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my stuff is just sort of being show how to do scribbling in the way that mathematicians do < 1264982080 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, at uni? < 1264982085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264982106 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some guy stands at the front and copies a bunch of equations from a bit of paper, then a class of a 100 people copy down his version < 1264982132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we go to a different room and do the same thing < 1264982140 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty silly, but it kills the day < 1264982142 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pretty much the only course where we don't develop the theory from scratch (apart from the actual logic) < 1264982178 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like I have something better to do than pretend to do mathematics < 1264982185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264982210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kinda hard to just quit after you've spent a few years already < 1264982210 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of homework do you have, "calculate determinant of this matrix here"? < 1264982231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1264982255 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last homework was copy a page of notes out but add 'y' in a few places < 1264982259 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this guy from like honduras or something, always complaining about how our uni is so theoretical and boring, unlike his university, where they did more concrete stuff like solving equations. < 1264982272 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they didn't phrase it in.. quite, that way.. but that's essentially what I did) < 1264982273 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :P < 1264982328 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels patriotic.