< 1265068891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pbox.ca/121kt < 1265069391 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265069524 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265069555 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hay you ! No cheating! Of course I am not channel operation < 1265069559 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265069958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HdLe Hooray, boredom. < 1265070165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CPS in C. For no good reason.) < 1265070182 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hail bad reasons < 1265070207 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all also hail absense of reasons < 1265070285 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, dividing by the same (large arbitrary-precision floating-point) value was slower than inverting the value and multiplying instead < 1265070313 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost 3x as fast, actually < 1265070521 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265070642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO it's a sign of a fairly useless pastebin if it doesn't support copying out as plain text! (pbox.ca) < 1265070645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all. < 1265070649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265070813 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265070914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a better one http://pastebin.ca/raw/1774973 < 1265070951 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it is not useless < 1265071059 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a new kind of question: Do you know how to play Quintuple Arcana? < 1265071685 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265071924 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many eyes does ettercap has? < 1265072136 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265072468 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even fortune cookies need to sleep sometime! < 1265072767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: That is not a proper question < 1265075315 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265075331 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265078382 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265080444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/mckche/ski.tar.gz < 1265080486 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265084294 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265084373 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265084405 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265084673 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265086072 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-109-61.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265086167 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265087448 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265087520 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265088884 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-44.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265088926 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265089266 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265089471 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265089546 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265090778 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265091950 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265092022 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093157 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265093332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093401 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093479 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094139 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265094190 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094244 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094460 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265095618 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265096285 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265097000 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265097082 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265097599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265097600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265098916 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265099133 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265099133 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265099134 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265099552 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265099842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265101207 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265105358 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265106211 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265106645 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265106721 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265108168 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265108800 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265109343 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265112342 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265115006 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265118193 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265118429 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265118642 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265118866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265119774 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs? < 1265121696 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265124728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265124762 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265125761 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265126885 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265127028 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265127462 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128418 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-51.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128594 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-51.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128604 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265128624 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128786 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265129028 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265129714 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-110.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130219 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs? < 1265130304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's more similar to writing point-free programs < 1265130334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, what is lambda lifted again < 1265130420 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-44.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1265130718 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i get from wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming article + my slight knowledge of FP, completely lambda-lifted programs are almost the opposite of that < 1265130788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they certainly have plenty of variables < 1265130853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: ^ < 1265130925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and point-free programs are not quite the same as FP's style either, since you can definitely combine new higher-order functions with point-free programming < 1265130953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's what I said at first (function level being similar to pointfree), but I'm still trying to figure out what the heck Backus was talking about. < 1265130990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah his strictly limited set of higher-order functions makes it very weird < 1265131093 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, he seems to make a strict distinction between functions and functionals, which isn't made in most discussion of functional programming. And I'm not sure I think it's all that useful... when functions *are* values, is the division between "function-level" and "value-level" really that strong? < 1265131114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265131206 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing that FP seems to do (although this is possibly coincidental, and not part of function-level programming) is that it's not possible to embed a literal in a program -- all your values have to supplied as input. < 1265131228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265131237 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265131285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) < 1265131332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm doesn't FP have a way of creating constant functions? < 1265131334 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, depending on the language, there are ways to defeat that, given logical invariants like x & ~x -> false < 1265131365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I understood was, it has a way to turn a value into a constant function (but the value still has to come from input) < 1265131484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how that makes sense if functions are _not_ values < 1265131518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my impression is they are not < 1265131578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intuition tells me that it's more like a function form "constant x" which is a function, although x is a value - wp article is not clear on this < 1265131588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can build new ones using functionals. So you can manipulate them, like you would manipulate any other value. So it seems safe-ish to say functions "are values" in FP. Even if they're a compeltely different type of value from everything else. < 1265131639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but a function in FP cannot turn a value into a function < 1265131650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can only give values as results, i think < 1265131658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should find a more reliable source < 1265131664 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FP is STUPID!!!!!! < 1265131665 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, that's a point. < 1265131680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy has a point also. < 1265131682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone that wants to do functional programming without LAMBDA has lots his MARBLES < 1265131699 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no coindicendec that LAMBDA is an anagram of MARBLES < 1265131717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have lost some marbles to think that < 1265131725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the anagram part) < 1265131757 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBSER DRACULA'S < 1265131886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of think the whole function/functional thing in FP was to simplify/rigidify the type system. Kind of like Russel's stuff about making sets of sets different from plain old sets. < 1265132106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs242/readings/backus.pdf it shows that constant is a functional form, not a function < 1265132125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and functional forms may have object arguments as well as function arguments < 1265132127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:18] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". [17:20] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". < 1265132134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the sort of time dilation that makes ehird capable of that < 1265132155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's what I suspected - so "functionals take functions to functions" on wp is wrong < 1265132170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was first thinking that he hadn't been here since a sunday, but then i checked his reddit page and there was a comment from 15 days ago < 1265132182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265132593 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is ehird? < 1265132609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1265132612 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265132698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should try email? < 1265132705 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is an extended ban from the internet, for whatever reason < 1265132757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) <-- why did I just imagine a continuation of the universe.... < 1265132762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most recent email I have from ehird (which he posted to a mailing list I'm on) is jan 13 < 1265132806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's been online since then though < 1265132814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265132843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, could haskell exist without *external* state. < 1265132845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18th or so < 1265132851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, imagine there is no universe, just haskell < 1265132871 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've emailed him, anyway < 1265132875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1265132877 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1265132976 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sounds worryingly like the smalltalk view of the universe < 1265132983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's pretty easy to set up < 1265132988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ban the IO monad, look no more universe < 1265133031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also ST/state. < 1265133040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's an internal thing < 1265133042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is nowhere for the interpreter to store the state < 1265133050 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there is, it can be stored in the moand < 1265133051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*monad < 1265133054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without existing in an external stateness context < 1265133056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement the state monad in pure haskell < 1265133062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1265133075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about the ST one? < 1265133079 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about ST < 1265133085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1265133094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is only implemented with magic for efficiency's sake. < 1265133100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State *is* pure Haskell. < 1265133118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, IO is only implemented with magic for utility's sake. < 1265133135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't know what ST is < 1265133136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfectly feasible to implement it in pure Haskell, so long as you don't mind it all doing not-much. < 1265133144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Strict state monad. < 1265133152 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ouch < 1265133154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also unless the gc could be implemented in pure haskell, this haskell's heap would grow forever, no? < 1265133166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an implementation detail. < 1265133168 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like it would be a) implementable nonmagically, and b) very inefficient if you did < 1265133182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes and yes. < 1265133202 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're assuming something with a relatively standard pointer architecture for gc to even make sense < 1265133219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's no *need* for garbage collection. < 1265133221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have more than one Underload interp; one of them uses a ref-counting gc, many others don't use or need any sort of gc at all < 1265133227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well we are getting to that < 1265133234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only for most practical implementations. < 1265133235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265133373 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gc is more-or-less a side effect of using references rather than just copying the entire object whenever you need a copy < 1265133375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to implement ST today < 1265133381 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did not succeed < 1265133399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, the first is more efficient on standard computers, but there's no reason it has to work like that in practice < 1265133410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory at least, but probably practice too < 1265133425 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you wouldn't use gc if you were implementing underload in, say, lisp < 1265133429 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, when you have an infinite amount of tape, why bother reusing it? < 1265133430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because having two layers of gc is pointless < 1265133454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and pointerless? < 1265133457 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think Keymaker's BF implementation of Underload does indeed not use pointers, and it would be a lot more bloated if it did < 1265133468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, should have left that to oerjan) < 1265133478 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, didn't realise it was meant to be a pun < 1265133524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the bf tape is not infinite < 1265133528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practise < 1265133546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, just write one in C and use gcc-bf ;P < 1265133578 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm now trying to imagine the size of Underload program that would be needed to make it run faster in gcc-bf-derlo than in keymaker's interp < 1265133598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is one, but I worry that it might be so large that it wouldn't fit into the limited-sized memory gcc-bf uses < 1265133620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265133646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, doesn't it partly depend on memory patterns < 1265133656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an endless loop that duplicates some data along the way < 1265133664 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, of course < 1265133667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which keeps the stack at a limited max < 1265133697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wouldn't that require a gc to not run out of memory? < 1265133714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would either run out with or without, or not run out with or without < 1265133733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1265133754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because you need either infinitely many pointers to the data/infinitely many copies of the data < 1265133757 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or finitely many of both < 1265133779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265133823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^:^^^S < 1265133823 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133863 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^^^S < 1265133864 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133867 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^^^S < 1265133868 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133871 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^^^S < 1265133872 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's strange < 1265133879 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^)^^S < 1265133879 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1265133897 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot evaluates Underload? < 1265133898 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what is stfu?". i want a divorce!!... this is nice but the drivers aren't always < 1265133900 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes < 1265133923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)^S < 1265133923 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1265133933 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~):*^S < 1265133933 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1265133939 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see what I did wrong < 1265133950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*:*^^S < 1265133950 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...too much stack! < 1265133953 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*^^S < 1265133953 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1265133957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1265134003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, the mistaken original somehow segfaulted when I pressed control-C, for no obvious reason < 1265134003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in derlo < 1265134021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, with a stack overflow < 1265134033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thanks Valgrind!) < 1265134295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, /this/ has happened to the Java documentation: http://java.sun.com/javase/reference/api.jsp < 1265134312 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265134349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect < 1265134371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see: < 1265134373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1265134373 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1265134380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I don't see anything strange about the 1st link, but the 2nd was darn surprising < 1265134381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf and ul < 1265134393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the first link, look at the title and the colours < 1265134402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Ah. < 1265134403 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you teach Java for a living like I do, you get used to looking at the API < 1265134408 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's weird seeing it with Oracle branding < 1265134417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also: < 1265134419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1265134419 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1265134443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yes. I've been under a rock wrt the Java world lately, and I wasn't aware of this... acquisition or whatever it is. < 1265134451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oracle bought Sun < 1265134465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire company, including everything that they owned < 1265134474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hilarious seeing adverts for Oracle Solaris, for instance < 1265134478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect <-- old (several days) < 1265134484 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so... sad. < 1265134495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but still shocking < 1265134508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265134517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what will happen to mysql < 1265134524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondering < 1265134530 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, oracle are going to invest in it < 1265134530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I much prefer postgre < 1265134532 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: re source: cool! < 1265134547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes, I thought *you* would think that ;P < 1265134551 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the underload interp starts on line 311, if you're interested < 1265134587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to pay a lot for a mediocre DB, Oracle is a good choice. < 1265134674 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... < 1265134693 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MySQL manages to not quite be a relational database < 1265134706 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's useful for the market it targets, but I'm not sure how to define that market < 1265134739 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data integrity? Who needs *that*? < 1265134743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfft. < 1265134755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sometimes you don't, although I agree sometimes you do < 1265134786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn < 1265134789 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*transactions < 1265134792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I was merely trying to define that market, ... through parody < 1265134799 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265134815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... <-- no < 1265134822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postgresql is a better choice < 1265134852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I meant that with MySQL you get a lot of mediocrity for your buck :) < 1265134872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn <-- what about innodb < 1265134872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer postgres, too. < 1265134909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: innodb doesn't really have transactions < 1265134911 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does a bit < 1265134918 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than myisam, but less than a sane database engine < 1265134952 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-222-156.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265134992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how long it'll take Oracle to completely destroy Java and Solaris. < 1265135034 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is, they won't < 1265135049 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that Oracle bought Sun just to prevent Java falling into the hands of someone who wanted to get rid of it < 1265135064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that most of the companies that rely on Oracle rely on Java too, you see... < 1265135116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. And now, they just rely on Oracle... < 1265135145 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"completely destroy" might have been a bad choice of term. < 1265135163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, "lock-in" seems more likely or reasonable < 1265135211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about iced tea < 1265135219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called < 1265135220 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or OpenJDK? < 1265135238 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those should both be out of oracle's control whatever happens < 1265135271 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IcedTea and OpenJDK are both different completions of the bits of Sun's JDK that they were legally allowed to open-source (i.e. not licenced from a third party), which was most of it) < 1265135313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, by "completely destroy" I was trying to evoke what happened to Perl from 5 to 6, and (to a lesser degree) in Python from 2 to 3. < 1265135319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html < 1265135325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm, but aren't those good things? < 1265135330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ! < 1265135344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl6 isn't really production-ready yet, but it's one of the most mindblowing wonderful languages I know, especially if you have an esolanger mindset < 1265135350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: !! < 1265135364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are something like ten different ways of writing an anonymous function and passing arguments to it < 1265135395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what is wrong with python 3 < 1265135404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any more than python 2 that is < 1265135410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they fixed some stuff in it iirc < 1265135420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like integer division now being // < 1265135460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would take too long for me to explain fully, I think. Until I can compose it, suffice to say, I think those languages both "jumped the shark" at those points. < 1265135469 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I suspect Java 7 will be similar. < 1265135481 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, I can imagine the sharkjumping < 1265135485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I prefer python 3 to python 2 < 1265135488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason perl5 is still developed < 1265135498 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think perl6 is a different language with an unfortunately similar name < 1265135499 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: function level programming is not functional programming < 1265135501 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not very different < 1265135567 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: function level programming is something completely different. it is a way of describing programs by transforming functions with functionals. you cannot write your own functions, and you have no variables. the only way you can get new functions is by applying functionals to existing functions. < 1265135585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The main problem I have with Python 3 is that continuing to call it "Python" suggests that migrating your existing Python code base to it will be ... easy! A piece of cake! You should do it! < 1265135585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: sort-of like concatenative langs? < 1265135618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 5to6 some_complicated_perl5_file.pl < 1265135618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua seems to have a better philosophy about "progress", overall, I think. Just my opinion. < 1265135625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have done it. wasn't too hard. Migrating an application using the C API to make python an embedded scripting language was worse < 1265135629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have done that too < 1265135633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how many LoC? < 1265135644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thanks to ifdefs made it compile against both python 2 and 3 < 1265135665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, around 1000 or so in total there. Also done a few other programs < 1265135689 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1000's almost short enough to rewrite < 1265135701 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depending on how many 3rd party packages? < 1265135703 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes < 1265135707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, most could be done by using some of the patches suggested by 2to3 (some patches like changing "in range(...)" to "in list(range(...))" weren't required) < 1265135722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, one third party one. why? < 1265135722 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that also applies to you (FLP is not in any way related to FP) < 1265135737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so the third party ones need to be ported first < 1265135748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes that one was tricky, it was a C json library. < 1265135758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which depended on byte rather than unicode strings < 1265135763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just suggesting that your example is small, compared to lots of Python codebases out there. < 1265135783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true, it isn't completely painless, but not too bad I found < 1265135795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also why are you using third party libs? NIH NIH! ;P < 1265135822 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ideally code should be written to be so portable it can easily be transferred to a different /language/ < 1265135839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: So design an imperative function-level programming language :) < 1265135851 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course, you just write it as compiled BF, that works < 1265135872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that *always* works < 1265135880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265135892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I just had an urge to mention PSOX again < 1265135893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well you might need psox ;P < 1265135896 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snap < 1265135902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh same second here < 1265135941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've clearly become some sort of hivemind < 1265135957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265135994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc you had some erlang code on your website? do you still use it? < 1265135998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the language that is) < 1265136020 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unfortunately, I haven't touched Erlang in a while. < 1265136046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how long? since before the unicode support? < 1265136067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, probably about then. I remember it being discussed, I don't remember actually using it. < 1265136073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh no, you aren't going to launch into an issue of what RAND_MAX should be on a bignum system again, are you? < 1265136082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, not his fingerprint < 1265136087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The continuous growing size of the OTP distribution frightens me :) < 1265136101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well efunge is written in erlang. I'm not aware of any other bignum funge < 1265136122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I'm the author of efunge, as well as cfunge) < 1265136124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well. Funge, like C, was never designed with bignum implementations in mind... < 1265136148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes indeed. Currently I'm considering bignum intercal < 1265136154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be just craz < 1265136156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy* < 1265136198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway I'm also working on a fingerprint for async threads in efunge. work in progress. < 1265136199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than I care to put in my brain at the moment, yes. < 1265136206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some part works < 1265136225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting... < 1265136235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, really t feels so silly when you have multiple cores and possibly multiple nodes. < 1265136239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really,* < 1265136249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is where this things comes into it < 1265136271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the multiple nodes might pose a problem since I use an ets table for funge-space. < 1265136281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple nodes scenario* < 1265136303 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, internal threads don't seem very Funge-like somehow... traditionally multiple IPs take their place ... not to discourage the development of a fingerprint to do it, of course. < 1265136316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when you introduce nodes.... yeah. < 1265136330 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i am not sure that imperative style would be good for FLP, since there is no assignment in FLP < 1265136337 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to see how to mesh those with Befunge's model. < 1265136342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could switch to mnesia, but that would be horribly slow < 1265136343 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: btw, porting from py2 to py3 should be easy < 1265136354 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not much harder than porting 2.6 to 2.5 for example < 1265136359 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2.4 < 1265136401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the fingerprint provides sync g, p and compare-and-swap (as G, P and C), the normal g and p (and other write/reads) are not guaranteed to be visible right away to other threads. Each thread can contain multiple IPs in theory (but efunge atm doesn't implement t) < 1265136440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also these threads wouldn't block each other when waiting for IO, unlike IPs in befunge normally do < 1265136451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476766& https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542689 < 1265136452 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: It doesn't have to be "good", but if you can't get away from using functions for everything, you'll have a hard time convincing me that function-level has no relation to functional programming. < 1265136488 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: function level programming does not produce results like you expect from normal programs. < 1265136493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh and I predict that distributed funge will be all the rage instead of java or .NET in 10 years ;P < 1265136499 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the output of a function level program is a program that is not written in FLP. < 1265136555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2, is it per chance written in #!/bin/cat ? < 1265136558 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i understand it, FLP is a kind of meta-programming language which allows you to define programs which then could be executed using some other runtime. < 1265136566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: You keep making exceptional-sounding claims about function-level programming, but at the same time, you keep asking the channel what function-level programming would be like. < 1265136615 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i am making claims about what i understand it as. but i'm interested in what other people understand it as. if someone contradicts what i say, of course they are wrong. ;-) < 1265136732 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a sort of constructive argument for coming up with ideas and concepts :-) < 1265136822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: Well, I will say I don't see a lot of support for the idea that it's a meta-language. I totally agree that it's not the same as (what we know today as) functional programming. My guess would be that Backus' thesis was to make a strong distinction and separation between values, functions, and functionals. (Whereas functional programming emphasizes that functions are values, and can be functionals.) < 1265136896 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is my impression too < 1265136898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But other than that, it seems to share a lot of ideas from functional programming. Like that you create new functions by transforming existing ones. And that a program is a mapping from inputs to outputs. < 1265136913 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the idea was too completely separate the data from the program structure < 1265136939 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yes, you had a program which calculates the area of a circle given the radius and the current value of pi < 1265136960 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's important, i think, is that he also separated the description framework < 1265136960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of one thing in freebsd kernel source < 1265136962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: that might be. If so... one of my language designs is "function-level" in that sense < 1265136968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60 < 1265136970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes really < 1265136979 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-58.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265136980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it wasn't a runtime variable < 1265136984 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. that program, which calculates the area, is not written in the same language it was defined in. < 1265137038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/larabee/ forbids literals in the program -- all values have to be read from input. < 1265137057 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, you define a program such as: print(multiply(arg2(),multiply(arg2(),arg2())) < 1265137071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. < 1265137101 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265137101 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265137104 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this program definition is defined in CFLPL which is cheater's function level programming language < 1265137113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: ok ... < 1265137131 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it gets compiled to: code which is executable in php. < 1265137151 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've heard of larabee before < 1265137174 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it was the name of the intel gpu thing < 1265137241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, 2 r's in the spelling of the gpu thing, but yes. I wasn't aware of that < 1265137307 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't aware of the 2 r's < 1265137307 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265137317 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever used happstack cpressey? < 1265137335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. <-- if it treats it like C does, as integers, then you could use that to get 0 and 1, then get the rest of the values from there < 1265137337 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: No. < 1265137356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, or if you have arithmetic, X-X = 0, X/X = 1. < 1265137369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or DivByZero exception :) ) < 1265137376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265137407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and then you can do (basically) 2=1+1 4=2*2 and so on < 1265137438 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fruitless, there's no point in doing that < 1265137442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it be possible to make a tc language where this wasn't possible < 1265137465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, forbid copying maybe? < 1265137483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: although I don't think that'll get you very far :) < 1265137486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it be tc then? < 1265137494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I suspect you could work around it < 1265137510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If my work on Larabee isn't completely whack, I think it's not TC. < 1265137535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't copy, then you rely on two inputs and you can't guarantee they're equal, so you can't guarantee a constant < 1265137549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I suspect it is possible to get known constants in any tc program that can not hard code literals (but that can use input) < 1265137557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure though < 1265137578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Definitely an interesting line of inquiry. < 1265137582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but then isn't the program bounded by the number of arguments < 1265137586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus sub-tc < 1265137632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think it is -- you don't need to hard-code much, to start off a computation that produces an infinite amount of output < 1265137647 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, computing pi to an indefinate # of decimal places < 1265137648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so it is allowed to copy those values once calculated? < 1265137660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not use an argument more than once? < 1265137697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it could just do it like X = arg1(), One = X / X, Zero = X - X. < 1265137698 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, that's where it gets tricky :) I think most models of computation rely on being able to copy values internally. < 1265137698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265137713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( heh I just realised that was potentially valid erlang code) < 1265137723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would need div, but otherwise) < 1265137772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just define arg1() to something suitable calling something in the init module to get the arguments) < 1265137832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well if you can't copy then internally you are probably subtc < 1265137838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just checked, and Larabee allows you to store and fetch input, and do arithmetic. However, to fetch a value from memory, you need to supply and index which... must come from input. So I still think Larabee is sub-TC. < 1265137848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can use each argument, then those new things can be used as one input in another computation < 1265137875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the these results only used once < 1265137876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265137881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you had no more input < 1265137882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265137889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could do "not" forever < 1265137892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is unary < 1265137895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, my brain is hurting now. < 1265137903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably have lunch. < 1265137906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any binary operators would reduce the number of variables to use < 1265137909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265137994 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhey, ehird is gone? < 1265137997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't even notice that. < 1265138068 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265138094 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time. < 1265138122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ehird is hard to notice < 1265138138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to own a computer < 1265138196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In five days he'll join and see that the topic says "20 days since last ehird sighting" :P < 1265138246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1265138273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ... or not < 1265138293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depends on if we remember to update it ;P) < 1265138301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. < 1265138317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh btw, go to http://sun.com/ < 1265138318 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And cry. < 1265138320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15 days since our last workplace accident. < 1265138353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: seen ehird < 1265138354 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are there documents of that in the general context of the article) contains essentially the whole difference between < 1265138380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265138380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a very good "seen" command, though I guess it *could* produce the correct reply too. < 1265138388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 'snot likely :P < 1265138426 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265138427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: i know that function level programming is not functional programming. < 1265138430 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-222-156.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265138479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3 "Oh not this again" < 1265138481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO U < 1265138508 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1265138543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: oh FP doesn't refer to functional programming, it refers to backus' original function-level language < 1265138557 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1265138575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw i'm answering old messages so i have no idea what you are saying now yet) < 1265138639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fungot: seen ehird <-- implement such a command then < 1265138640 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: deep macrology? beh, beh. i don't seem to have run into the fnord status.' < 1265138801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't one of the bots already have such a thing? < 1265138815 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265138821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, style < 1265138821 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you can always fnord the occasional scheme code here. use lisppaste. < 1265138844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Yes, but it might not be a good idea to fnord Scheme. < 1265138845 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: glyp glof! varsinkin se yksi ( jos se enää on siellä), jossa ne fnord niitä fnord! fnord!" " jenwolf sucks!" " fnord < 1265138857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, a rare bit of Finnish there. < 1265138909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"glyp glof"? < 1265138918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you are heavy on the fnords over there! < 1265138919 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't know what that was about. < 1265138962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am disconcerted by the notion that both "glyp" and "glof" occur often enough to not be "fnord" < 1265138999 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Often enough" means "more than once" here, but still. < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:44] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, glof glyp!"PrntNl < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:48] < oklobot2> Argle bargle, glof glyp! < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:54:53] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, "PrntNl "glyp glof!"PrntNl < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:55:00] < oklobot2> glyp glof! < 1265139049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that you can blame oerjan. < 1265139057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, you can always blame oerjan!) < 1265139075 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Consider yourself blamed! < 1265139231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01. < 1265139315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: lambdabot has a @seen command, i don't know about any here... < 1265139383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: glyp and glof are famous H2G2 words < 1265139395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1265139400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's glop glyf < 1265139434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-11.log:[2006-11-12 21:09:23] < oerjan> !bf_txtgen Argle bargle, glop glyf < 1265139434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008-11.log:[2008-11-15 00:32:26] < oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf < 1265139435 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: don't throw the pic away, i'll check that out. how do you implement by yourself < 1265139437 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always you. < 1265139448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could tell envbot to join, it has a seen command < 1265139461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but due to being written in bash it isn't very esoteric < 1265139483 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not totally convinced we need one. And anyway, fungot ought to be clever enough to spontaneously develop one. < 1265139483 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hey! eso already exists. and, instruction and operand ( including numbers) < 1265139524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh no, not the blaming! < 1265139593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is no a jour < 1265139595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*now < 1265139669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : argh no, not the blaming! <-- is it just me, or was this a very vague and obscure discworld reference? < 1265139672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*à < 1265139677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc, one of the tiffany series?) < 1265139701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a chance, unless my unconscious has read more pratchett than me < 1265139708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1265139878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would not rule that out entirely though < 1265140008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out sometimes his recalls really are vague < 1265140029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think? < 1265140118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't caught that many errors < 1265140132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to the amount of vaguations < 1265140193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously my really vague recalls are about ancient mysteries lost in time that you youngsters would have no hope of checking *MWAHAHAHA* < 1265140237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or possibly i left no witnesses. < 1265140892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"take only photographs, leave no witnesses." i like that. < 1265141094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not really that big on photographs either < 1265141184 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh yeah, they can be used as evidence of a court of law, cain't they. Well nix that then. < 1265141198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/of/in/ < 1265141217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of, too, i believe < 1265141253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also an excellent place to leave no witnesses < 1265142210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265142632 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY that's a segue to http://codu.org/projects/zee/ < 1265142638 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265142638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the segue guys < 1265142641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265142680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had that idea < 1265142691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i almost considered doing something with it < 1265142698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, maybe not *almost* < 1265142715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much less < 1265142731 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you had PLOT ideas? :P < 1265142744 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. plots make games impure. < 1265142749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do "based on"'s < 1265142755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265142778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes his games flash and ball. < 1265142796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ball being the objects, flash being how the game is implemented < 1265142816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm plot... < 1265142834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Based on true story" games! < 1265142858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on a filthy lie < 1265142909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i might consider thinking about a plot, in the future maybe, or not. < 1265142924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be so awesome < 1265142930 0 :speeskees!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265142936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was like a 10 hour game, but you just have one crime scene photo < 1265143074 0 :speeskees!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265143102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't be a problem to do realistic rendering for the graphics :P < 1265143823 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265144941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nearly every definition of "execute" is nearly antonymous with "terminate". Except for the most common one, which is synonymous. Funny thing, English. < 1265145559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the most common one is what? < 1265145584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION executes a swatting, terminating oklopol -----### < 1265145648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in execution. Mr. Bobbert was executed. < 1265145648 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL <-- hmm, this is interesting < 1265145660 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to build a polyglot in all variants of that language :) < 1265145672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean the one that involved killing, i checked two dictionaries, in one it was the second to last meaning, in the other one there wasn't even a mention of that use. granted, these are pretty crappy dictionaries < 1265145677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*involves < 1265145684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower < 1265145686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"execute" = euphemism for "execute a death warrant" < 1265145697 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1265145701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i'm pretty sure that's the least used meaning < 1265145701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't matter. < 1265145705 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how words come to be. < 1265145707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ??? < 1265145712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Maybe for a computer scientist. < 1265145721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and based on the dictionaries < 1265145746 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dictionaries don't index by meaning frequency ... < 1265145749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checked two other web ones and there was no mention of killing < 1265145752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true... < 1265145778 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning #3 at dictionary.coim is: " to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law." < 1265145787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I argue that that is the most common meaning understood by English speakers. < 1265145801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It may not be in sane countries, but I'm in a country with the death sentence. < 1265145808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265145809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what's more remarkable is the frequency of use of euphemisms in English-speaking countries... < 1265145810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executions, y'know, *happen* here. < 1265145831 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think it's legit to say it's still a euphemism for that. It's just taken on that meaning. < 1265145844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true... i think of executing as a term you'd only need when talking about 14th century france < 1265145850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the killing one < 1265145873 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I hold a different opinion - the euphemistic meaning has become the dominant one, but it's still a euphemism. < 1265145879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14th century france, 21st century US, what's the difference *ducks* < 1265145901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ducks are very different in usa, yes < 1265145937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gameboy emulators without any sort of throttling... < 1265145943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to play most games with. < 1265145944 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lawl < 1265145946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Amazing* for RPGs. < 1265145963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Suck it, grinding.": < 1265145976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID < 1265146095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there really should be something that lists frequencies of different meanings of words, at least a rough estimate < 1265146162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Mr. Command. Execute him! < 1265146163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be hard to determine < 1265146187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not. < 1265146196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe in 1% of cases < 1265146208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"does this word mean do or kill?" < 1265146248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for an entire dictionary < 1265146265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that do and execute are actually synonyms in any context < 1265146311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it could be so rough an estimate it's actually just random numbers < 1265146339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Wordnet has count-of-occurrences-in-tagged-texts, which sort of tries to be an estimate for that. < 1265146355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's just that not all meanings even have any counts there. < 1265146398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of works for "real common" / "not so common" distinguishment; for red as an adjective: < 1265146400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The adj red has 3 senses (first 3 from tagged texts) < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. (43) red, reddish, ruddy, blood-red, carmine, cerise, cherry, cherry-red, crimson, ruby, ruby-red, scarlet -- (of a color at the end of the color spectrum (next to orange); resembling the color of blood or cherries or tomatoes or rubies) < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. (8) crimson, red, violent -- (characterized by violence or bloodshed; "writes of crimson deeds and barbaric days"- Andrea Parke; "fann'd by Conquest's crimson wing"- Thomas Gray; "convulsed with red rage"- Hudson Strode) < 1265146402 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. (7) crimson, red, reddened, red-faced, flushed -- ((especially of the face) reddened or suffused with or as if with blood from emotion or exertion; "crimson with fury"; "turned red from exertion"; "with puffy reddened eyes"; "red-faced and violent"; "flushed (or crimson) with embarrassment") < 1265146447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, execute? < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. (2) execute, put to death -- (kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed") < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. (1) execute -- (murder in a planned fashion; "The Mafioso who collaborated with the police was executed") < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. (1) carry through, accomplish, execute, carry out, action, fulfill, fulfil -- (put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation") < 1265146467 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other four meanings don't have a count. < 1265146472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or have a count of zero, if you prefer. < 1265146506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you use a 14th century dictionary < 1265146538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is up to you how much a meaning you derive from one or two mentions. < 1265146565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to spelle properlie, of course < 1265146609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the less data i have, the wilder i can let my imagination run when interpreting it. < 1265146686 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265146753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rewinding* < 1265146756 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i never used an oracle thing in my life < 1265146764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That seems like a very prescriptivist approach to language. < 1265146772 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: YOU HAVE NOW < 1265146777 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH THIS SITE REQUIRES JAVACRAPT < 1265146801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And IMHO prescriptivism is pretty silly for English in particular, and language in general. < 1265146806 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the versions of java i have were pre-oracle < 1265146806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Prescriptivist? I'm not the one claiming throwing around "not legit to say that" :) < 1265146810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/claiming// < 1265146837 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, i'm hoping they'll keep releasing open stuff < 1265146845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Fair enough :P < 1265146868 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: I was assuming that all Sun things, past and present, were now Oracle things. And in that case, it's amusing that you think Java is the only Sun thing you use. < 1265146884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prescriptivism is the only way mankind could ever escape the horrors of natural language < 1265146896 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably not the only thing < 1265146900 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh... < 1265146908 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else do you think i'd use? < 1265146920 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've really only done j2se and j2me < 1265146923 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1265146929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do use any Unix system? < 1265146937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, you think language is just going to *evolve* into something sensible? do you know how ridiculous that sounds... < 1265146957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun has tentacles in every corner of nearly every Unix system. Maybe not huge portions, but little bits everywhere. < 1265147018 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use freebsd here, linux on my lappy < 1265147026 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not using any zfs. < 1265147048 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually use the diablo jdk < 1265147051 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on freebsd < 1265147084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun is a contributor to the Linux kernel, X11, GNOME off the top of my head. < 1265147087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that augur isn't here, must be why oklopol hasn't been mauled yet < 1265147096 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And aside from that, everything else. Everything. < 1265147133 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK i'm having trouble finding the j2se library documentation < 1265147134 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, Sun has contributed to open-source products I use every day. How shall I ever escape their diabolical grip. < 1265147137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything under the sun < 1265147165 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265147176 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying anything negative about Sun, I'm just saying that the not-insubstantial possibility that they'll stop being the Sun we know and love is bad. < 1265147206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you'll have to cleanse it in holy water, i hear jews do that < 1265147210 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265147231 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/ < 1265147232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you i'm not sure if they apply it to electronics < 1265147253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably applies well to programs < 1265147280 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread "Sun has contraband in open-source products I use every day". That's quite a statement. < 1265147300 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear oracle: why did it take about 5 clicks from the front page to get to the j2se API documentation? < 1265147317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Because you should have gone to java.sun.com ? < 1265147332 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265147342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to google for "java api" and go from there; never bothered to bookmark the thing. < 1265147342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So glad I'm not a "Java person". < 1265147355 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmmkay... i shall hopefully remember that < 1265147357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No offense to any "Java people" here of course. < 1265147371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java people need more offense :P < 1265147379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we have many indonesians here < 1265147401 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes 4 clicks < 1265147425 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i attempted to make a java decompiler once < 1265147426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read those two sentences as one, "oerjan: i don't think we need any indonesians here" < 1265147432 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could get the bytecode alright < 1265147445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was slightly out of character for oerjan < 1265147453 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however i think i was lacking in knowledge of decompilers < 1265147453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could share a homework question answer reply from comp.lang.c I found amusing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/a64002d547d3a95f < 1265147457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*slightly* < 1265147494 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...people still use usenet? < 1265147511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, yes of course < 1265147527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you? < 1265147531 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1265147535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they do; clc is a very very active group. Admittedly it's mostly full of spam and bizarre madness, as opposed to on-topic things, but still. < 1265147539 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm encountering archives and stuff < 1265147546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, clcm. < 1265147561 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265147566 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How delightfully useless :P < 1265147567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What, and not read all that spinoza1111 stuff? < 1265147583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly. :-P < 1265147626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And all Kenny McCormick crossposts between comp.lang.c and rec.games.bridge? < 1265147635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, clcm? < 1265147640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: comp.lang.c.moderated. < 1265147644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265147646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265147648 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, those too. < 1265147652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clc was not about clc-intercal? < 1265147655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1265147659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooling me like that < 1265147668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are as easily fooled as ever. < 1265147680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Given that I had mentioned the full "comp.lang.c" name in my previous comment, I thought the abbreviation safe. < 1265147698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That price is too high to pay for some peace and quiet. < 1265147707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, meh < 1265147724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't read the full url < 1265147733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's also in the text before the URL. < 1265147743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "meh" < 1265147767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can't spot it when re-reading, why would I have spotted it first time ;P < 1265148061 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's the best way to do usenet? < 1265148067 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hopefully, free. < 1265148113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: I don't really know the best way; I just read using my ISP's NNTP server and slrn at the moment (though the actual newsreader changes from time to time). < 1265148127 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm :( < 1265148143 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have an nntp server.. i don't even have 'an isp' (i travel a lot around da world) < 1265148147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone -- I don't remember who -- used http://www.eternal-september.org/ for that. < 1265148161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be somewhat free. < 1265148180 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: what game do you cheat at to have the money for that? < 1265148192 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: your mom < 1265148193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of connections per day per user limited? That sounds like it sucks < 1265148194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though with some connection limits and no binaries-style groups.) < 1265148201 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that looks useful, thanks < 1265148215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does your ISP provide the binaries-style groups? < 1265148222 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: probably not. < 1265148229 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you use easynews for that. < 1265148282 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265148283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was asking because he said explicitly that eternal-september doesn't, whereas it seems to me that it's more noteworthy if something does. < 1265148299 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think they do, though I might be wrong. "grep ^alt.binaries newsrc-nebula | wc -l" at least says 1911, but I haven't checked if the groups contain any content. < 1265148374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I do remember that Saunalahti (or Scifi) used to, because they also had a nifty service that decoded all alt.binaries groups automagically into files on a network filesystem that was visible on their shell server. < 1265148405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265148409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long ago was that? < 1265148438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess late 1990s. < 1265148510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt.binaries.music appears to have 75k headers here at least; let's see if there's any content < 1265148519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something like a hundred gigabytes (this was a big deal back then) full of copyrighted software and porn. < 1265148527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And possibly a few other files, but that was the majority of it. < 1265148528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that link: "Today is September, 6000 1993, the september that never ends " < 1265148535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should possibly (not) be celebrated < 1265148575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, is it the 6000th day today (in some time zones)? Almost went by without noticing. < 1265148578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 would be interested in it < 1265148587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes I just mentioned it! < 1265148617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it was a reaction to that. < 1265148641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME FOR MOAR MST3K < 1265148645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "hey" implied (to me) "look what I found out" < 1265148664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was "hey" in the "surprised interjection" sense. < 1265148673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does look like there's data there, too. So apparently Welho provides. < 1265148676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1265148678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then < 1265148688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elisa didn't, IIRC. < 1265148760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't what? < 1265148763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, and in addition to the news-decoding, they had a huge "/work" directory that was also usable for sharing large files with other Saunalahti customers; that one was also full of pirated software too, though not as much porn. < 1265148781 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: See e.g. http://sektori.com/uutinen/saunalahtea-moititaan-piratismin/1457/ < 1265148795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it got discontinued after getting official notice like that. < 1265148810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But before that, it had been quietly distributing data for at least some years. < 1265148828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Provide binary newsgroups. < 1265148831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265148841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"syytää" :P < 1265148865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newszilla6.xs4all.nl provides binaries < 1265148875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readonly only (afaik) < 1265148881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that is ipv6 only < 1265149075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And as for the "number of connections per day limited" of eternal-september.org, the limit is 1200 connections/day/user. You can connect 50 times per hour, almost once per minute; I would think you need to have a rather terminal combination of Usenet addiction and short attention span to run into that limit, assuming you just connect-read-disconnect (or even connect-fetch-disconnect-read) instead of automagically polling a lot. < 1265149105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not keep-alive? < 1265149132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "one connection" over NNTP actually do? Download one message? < 1265149153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, you can keep it open pretty much as long as you wish, and I think newsreaders usually do. < 1265149194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that last part is just conjecture; certainly it'd be possible to write a newsreader that opens a separate connection whenever you click on a message. < 1265149194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's not much of a limit then indeed. < 1265149284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night →↓â†â†‘ < 1265149341 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265149396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing a cartwheel while going to sleep, how suspiciously athletic. < 1265149432 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265149455 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what is the significance of september 1993? < 1265149492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September < 1265149563 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh haha < 1265149608 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265149783 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265149847 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265149894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1265149916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265149923 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265150096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. September 1993 is when Befunge was born :) < 1265150102 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265150116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually all your fault! < 1265150278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm proud of how much Befunge, and esolangs in general, have really helped lowered the social standards of teh internets. < 1265150307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes directionless squawking sounds < 1265150382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define squawk < 1265150384 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* utter a harsh abrupt scream \ * the noise of squawking; "she awoke to the squawk of chickens"; "the squawk of car horns" \ * gripe: complain; "What was he hollering about?" < 1265150405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265150423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess madness takes its toll < 1265150468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll be 5 quarters < 1265150946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the madness I blame squarely on shared objects. < 1265150984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265151795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squared objects < 1265152036 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on! Unit test segfaulted! < 1265152294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? can't you just multiply by it and check if the result is the same? < 1265152305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit unit < 1265152320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay that's much harder to check < 1265152326 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265152332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet he tested the units but forgot the nulls < 1265152400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nulls are easy to test for, units are sort of hard. unless it's a field, then it's pretty easy. < 1265152405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, now we have to write null tests to go with our null tests? < 1265152440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265152446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :null tests to go with our unit tests < 1265152463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly. any ring theorist could have told you that. < 1265152514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can only assume cpressey is some sort of an applied ring theorist < 1265152552 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup oklopol < 1265152583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both sup and inf lately, i hear < 1265152609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe i shouldn't spread private conversation < 1265152633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265152683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also coding theory, but i figured you wouldn't be that interested < 1265152699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it a bit too cryptic < 1265152706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, someone pinged me < 1265152729 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I pong you < 1265152769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to figure out what exactly makes a code C in 2^n a perfect tile, that is, one for which you can find such a_i's that a_i+C's exactly partition 2^n < 1265152771 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will check logs as soon as Google Chrome recovers. < 1265152777 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, string rewriting, a prefect match for numerical computing < 1265152782 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*perfect < 1265152786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizes are obvious, as is the fact linear codes and their translates all form perfect tiles < 1265152805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are codes that form perfect tiles that have seemingly no structure < 1265152839 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have incidentally built a thue interpreter too < 1265152846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(translate = take the code and add something to it) < 1265152862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a curious incident < 1265152903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i've been playing with 2^4 hypercubes for hours < 1265152929 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...according to the logs, no one pinged me < 1265152932 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mindboggle* < 1265152935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet you still appear human < 1265152944 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1265152970 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'll do the following sleeping now: < 1265153312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * sleeping on my side * sleeping on my back * sleeping while standing < 1265153359 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION accidentally got pina colada chapstick, and doesn't even know what pina colada is < 1265153411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1a_colada < 1265153485 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265153594 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265153990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many ideas, too little time. < 1265154021 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265154555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I read that as "I might have accidentally built a thue interpreter too" < 1265154843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265154854 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I meant too as in "as well as what I was attempting to build" < 1265154896 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having already built about 3 of those while actually attempting to < 1265155039 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving