←2010-02-01 2010-02-02 2010-02-03→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:31 <zzo38> http://pbox.ca/121kt
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00:12:35 <zzo38> Hay you ! No cheating! Of course I am not channel operation
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00:19:18 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/HdLe Hooray, boredom.
00:22:45 <pikhq> (CPS in C. For no good reason.)
00:23:02 <olsner> all hail bad reasons
00:23:27 <olsner> all also hail absense of reasons
00:24:45 <olsner> also, dividing by the same (large arbitrary-precision floating-point) value was slower than inverting the value and multiplying instead
00:25:13 <olsner> almost 3x as fast, actually
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00:30:42 <cpressey> IMO it's a sign of a fairly useless pastebin if it doesn't support copying out as plain text! (pbox.ca)
00:30:45 <cpressey> Night all.
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00:35:14 <zzo38> This is a better one http://pastebin.ca/raw/1774973
00:35:51 <zzo38> Now it is not useless
00:37:39 <zzo38> I have a new kind of question: Do you know how to play Quintuple Arcana?
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00:52:04 <zzo38> How many eyes does ettercap has?
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01:01:08 <zzo38> Even fortune cookies need to sleep sometime!
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03:14:04 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/mckche/ski.tar.gz
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14:09:34 <cheater> is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs?
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17:04:44 <oerjan> <cheater> is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs?
17:05:04 <oerjan> i think it's more similar to writing point-free programs
17:05:34 <oerjan> or wait, what is lambda lifted again
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17:08:33 <oerjan> hm right
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17:12:50 <oerjan> from what i get from wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming article + my slight knowledge of FP, completely lambda-lifted programs are almost the opposite of that
17:13:08 <oerjan> they certainly have plenty of variables
17:14:13 <oerjan> cheater: ^
17:15:25 <oerjan> and point-free programs are not quite the same as FP's style either, since you can definitely combine new higher-order functions with point-free programming
17:15:53 <cpressey> oerjan: that's what I said at first (function level being similar to pointfree), but I'm still trying to figure out what the heck Backus was talking about.
17:16:30 <oerjan> yeah his strictly limited set of higher-order functions makes it very weird
17:18:13 <cpressey> Yeah, he seems to make a strict distinction between functions and functionals, which isn't made in most discussion of functional programming. And I'm not sure I think it's all that useful... when functions *are* values, is the division between "function-level" and "value-level" really that strong?
17:18:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: 16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:20:06 <cpressey> The other thing that FP seems to do (although this is possibly coincidental, and not part of function-level programming) is that it's not possible to embed a literal in a program -- all your values have to supplied as input.
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17:21:25 <cpressey> Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :)
17:22:12 <oerjan> hm doesn't FP have a way of creating constant functions?
17:22:14 <cpressey> Although, depending on the language, there are ways to defeat that, given logical invariants like x & ~x -> false
17:22:45 <cpressey> What I understood was, it has a way to turn a value into a constant function (but the value still has to come from input)
17:24:44 <oerjan> i don't see how that makes sense if functions are _not_ values
17:25:18 <oerjan> and my impression is they are not
17:26:18 <oerjan> my intuition tells me that it's more like a function form "constant x" which is a function, although x is a value - wp article is not clear on this
17:26:28 <cpressey> Well, you can build new ones using functionals. So you can manipulate them, like you would manipulate any other value. So it seems safe-ish to say functions "are values" in FP. Even if they're a compeltely different type of value from everything else.
17:27:19 <oerjan> sure, but a function in FP cannot turn a value into a function
17:27:30 <oerjan> it can only give values as results, i think
17:27:38 * oerjan should find a more reliable source
17:27:44 <MissPiggy> FP is STUPID!!!!!!
17:27:45 <cpressey> hm, that's a point.
17:28:00 <cpressey> MissPiggy has a point also.
17:28:02 <MissPiggy> anyone that wants to do functional programming without LAMBDA has lots his MARBLES
17:28:19 <MissPiggy> it's no coindicendec that LAMBDA is an anagram of MARBLES
17:28:37 <oerjan> you must have lost some marbles to think that
17:28:45 <oerjan> (the anagram part)
17:29:17 <cpressey> LAMBSER DRACULA'S
17:31:26 <cpressey> I kind of think the whole function/functional thing in FP was to simplify/rigidify the type system. Kind of like Russel's stuff about making sets of sets different from plain old sets.
17:35:06 <oerjan> oh, in http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs242/readings/backus.pdf it shows that constant is a functional form, not a function
17:35:25 <oerjan> and functional forms may have object arguments as well as function arguments
17:35:27 <scarf> [17:18] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". [17:20] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D".
17:35:34 <scarf> I love the sort of time dilation that makes ehird capable of that
17:35:55 <cpressey> oerjan: That's what I suspected - so "functionals take functions to functions" on wp is wrong
17:36:10 <oerjan> i was first thinking that he hadn't been here since a sunday, but then i checked his reddit page and there was a comment from 15 days ago
17:36:22 <oerjan> yeah
17:43:13 <MissPiggy> where is ehird?
17:43:29 <oerjan> no idea
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17:44:58 <scarf> maybe we should try email?
17:45:05 <scarf> my guess is an extended ban from the internet, for whatever reason
17:45:57 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) <-- why did I just imagine a continuation of the universe....
17:46:02 <scarf> most recent email I have from ehird (which he posted to a mailing list I'm on) is jan 13
17:46:46 <oerjan> he's been online since then though
17:46:54 <AnMaster> hm
17:47:23 <AnMaster> also, could haskell exist without *external* state.
17:47:25 <oerjan> 18th or so
17:47:31 <AnMaster> as in, imagine there is no universe, just haskell
17:47:51 <scarf> I've emailed him, anyway
17:47:55 <AnMaster> or maybe not
17:47:57 <MissPiggy> ;(
17:49:36 <scarf> AnMaster: sounds worryingly like the smalltalk view of the universe
17:49:43 <scarf> but that's pretty easy to set up
17:49:48 <scarf> just ban the IO monad, look no more universe
17:50:31 <AnMaster> scarf, also ST/state.
17:50:40 <scarf> AnMaster: that's an internal thing
17:50:42 <AnMaster> since there is nowhere for the interpreter to store the state
17:50:50 <scarf> and yes there is, it can be stored in the moand
17:50:51 <scarf> *monad
17:50:54 <AnMaster> without existing in an external stateness context
17:50:56 <scarf> you can implement the state monad in pure haskell
17:51:02 <AnMaster> scarf, oh?
17:51:15 <AnMaster> scarf, what about the ST one?
17:51:19 <scarf> I don't know about ST
17:51:25 <AnMaster> hm okay
17:51:34 <pikhq> ST is only implemented with magic for efficiency's sake.
17:51:40 <pikhq> State *is* pure Haskell.
17:51:58 <pikhq> In fact, IO is only implemented with magic for utility's sake.
17:52:15 <scarf> I mean, I don't know what ST is
17:52:16 <pikhq> It's perfectly feasible to implement it in pure Haskell, so long as you don't mind it all doing not-much.
17:52:24 <pikhq> scarf: Strict state monad.
17:52:32 <scarf> ah, ouch
17:52:34 <AnMaster> also unless the gc could be implemented in pure haskell, this haskell's heap would grow forever, no?
17:52:46 <pikhq> That's an implementation detail.
17:52:48 <scarf> that sounds like it would be a) implementable nonmagically, and b) very inefficient if you did
17:53:02 <pikhq> scarf: Yes and yes.
17:53:22 <scarf> AnMaster: you're assuming something with a relatively standard pointer architecture for gc to even make sense
17:53:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's no *need* for garbage collection.
17:53:41 <scarf> I have more than one Underload interp; one of them uses a ref-counting gc, many others don't use or need any sort of gc at all
17:53:47 <AnMaster> scarf, well we are getting to that
17:53:54 <pikhq> Only for most practical implementations.
17:53:55 <AnMaster> hm
17:56:13 <scarf> gc is more-or-less a side effect of using references rather than just copying the entire object whenever you need a copy
17:56:15 <MissPiggy> I was trying to implement ST today
17:56:21 <MissPiggy> but I did not succeed
17:56:39 <scarf> obviously, the first is more efficient on standard computers, but there's no reason it has to work like that in practice
17:56:50 <scarf> well, in theory at least, but probably practice too
17:57:05 <scarf> for instance, you wouldn't use gc if you were implementing underload in, say, lisp
17:57:09 <cpressey> Indeed, when you have an infinite amount of tape, why bother reusing it?
17:57:10 <scarf> because having two layers of gc is pointless
17:57:34 <AnMaster> scarf, and pointerless?
17:57:37 <scarf> cpressey: I think Keymaker's BF implementation of Underload does indeed not use pointers, and it would be a lot more bloated if it did
17:57:48 <AnMaster> (sorry, should have left that to oerjan)
17:57:58 <scarf> oh, didn't realise it was meant to be a pun
17:58:44 <AnMaster> also the bf tape is not infinite
17:58:48 <AnMaster> in practise
17:59:06 <AnMaster> scarf, just write one in C and use gcc-bf ;P
17:59:38 <scarf> AnMaster: I'm now trying to imagine the size of Underload program that would be needed to make it run faster in gcc-bf-derlo than in keymaker's interp
17:59:58 <scarf> I think there is one, but I worry that it might be so large that it wouldn't fit into the limited-sized memory gcc-bf uses
18:00:20 <AnMaster> heh
18:00:46 <AnMaster> scarf, doesn't it partly depend on memory patterns
18:00:56 <AnMaster> like an endless loop that duplicates some data along the way
18:01:04 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, of course
18:01:07 <AnMaster> but which keeps the stack at a limited max
18:01:37 <AnMaster> scarf, wouldn't that require a gc to not run out of memory?
18:01:54 <scarf> AnMaster: it would either run out with or without, or not run out with or without
18:02:13 <AnMaster> scarf, oh?
18:02:34 <scarf> AnMaster: because you need either infinitely many pointers to the data/infinitely many copies of the data
18:02:37 <scarf> or finitely many of both
18:02:59 <AnMaster> ah
18:03:43 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^:^^^S
18:03:43 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:23 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^^^S
18:04:24 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:27 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^^^S
18:04:28 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:31 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^^^S
18:04:32 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:04:35 <scarf> ok, that's strange
18:04:39 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^)^^S
18:04:39 <fungot> ...bad insn!
18:04:57 <cpressey> fungot evaluates Underload?
18:04:58 <fungot> cpressey: what is stfu?". i want a divorce!!... this is nice but the drivers aren't always
18:05:00 <scarf> cpressey: yes
18:05:23 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)^S
18:05:23 <fungot> x
18:05:33 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~):*^S
18:05:33 <fungot> y
18:05:39 <scarf> oh, I see what I did wrong
18:05:50 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*:*^^S
18:05:50 <fungot> ...too much stack!
18:05:53 <scarf> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*^^S
18:05:53 <fungot> x
18:05:57 <scarf> there we go
18:06:43 <scarf> still, the mistaken original somehow segfaulted when I pressed control-C, for no obvious reason
18:06:43 <scarf> in derlo
18:07:01 <scarf> oh, with a stack overflow
18:07:13 <scarf> (thanks Valgrind!)
18:11:35 <scarf> meanwhile, /this/ has happened to the Java documentation: http://java.sun.com/javase/reference/api.jsp
18:11:52 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:12:29 <scarf> and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect
18:12:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, see:
18:12:53 <AnMaster> ^help
18:12:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:13:00 <cpressey> scarf: I don't see anything strange about the 1st link, but the 2nd was darn surprising
18:13:01 <AnMaster> bf and ul
18:13:13 <scarf> cpressey: the first link, look at the title and the colours
18:13:22 <cpressey> scarf: Ah.
18:13:23 <scarf> if you teach Java for a living like I do, you get used to looking at the API
18:13:28 <scarf> and it's weird seeing it with Oracle branding
18:13:37 <AnMaster> cpressey, also:
18:13:39 <AnMaster> ^source
18:13:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:14:03 <cpressey> Um, yes. I've been under a rock wrt the Java world lately, and I wasn't aware of this... acquisition or whatever it is.
18:14:11 <scarf> cpressey: Oracle bought Sun
18:14:25 <scarf> the entire company, including everything that they owned
18:14:34 <scarf> it's hilarious seeing adverts for Oracle Solaris, for instance
18:14:38 <AnMaster> <scarf> and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect <-- old (several days)
18:14:44 <cpressey> That's so... sad.
18:14:55 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, but still shocking
18:15:08 <AnMaster> well yes
18:15:17 <AnMaster> also what will happen to mysql
18:15:24 <AnMaster> just wondering
18:15:30 <scarf> apparently, oracle are going to invest in it
18:15:30 <AnMaster> I much prefer postgre
18:15:32 <cpressey> AnMaster: re source: cool!
18:15:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, well yes, I thought *you* would think that ;P
18:15:51 <scarf> the underload interp starts on line 311, if you're interested
18:16:27 <cpressey> If you want to pay a lot for a mediocre DB, Oracle is a good choice.
18:17:54 <cpressey> If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice...
18:18:13 <scarf> MySQL manages to not quite be a relational database
18:18:26 <scarf> I think it's useful for the market it targets, but I'm not sure how to define that market
18:18:59 <cpressey> Data integrity? Who needs *that*?
18:19:03 <cpressey> Pfft.
18:19:15 <scarf> cpressey: sometimes you don't, although I agree sometimes you do
18:19:46 <scarf> well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn
18:19:49 <scarf> *transactions
18:19:52 <cpressey> scarf: I was merely trying to define that market, ... through parody
18:19:59 <scarf> ah
18:20:15 <AnMaster> <cpressey> If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... <-- no
18:20:22 <AnMaster> postgresql is a better choice
18:20:52 <cpressey> AnMaster: I meant that with MySQL you get a lot of mediocrity for your buck :)
18:21:12 <AnMaster> <scarf> well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn <-- what about innodb
18:21:12 <cpressey> I prefer postgres, too.
18:21:49 <scarf> AnMaster: innodb doesn't really have transactions
18:21:51 <scarf> well, it does a bit
18:21:58 <scarf> more than myisam, but less than a sane database engine
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18:23:12 <cpressey> I wonder how long it'll take Oracle to completely destroy Java and Solaris.
18:23:54 <scarf> my guess is, they won't
18:24:09 <scarf> I suspect that Oracle bought Sun just to prevent Java falling into the hands of someone who wanted to get rid of it
18:24:24 <scarf> I suspect that most of the companies that rely on Oracle rely on Java too, you see...
18:25:16 <cpressey> Hm. And now, they just rely on Oracle...
18:25:45 <cpressey> "completely destroy" might have been a bad choice of term.
18:26:03 <scarf> yep, "lock-in" seems more likely or reasonable
18:26:51 <AnMaster> what about iced tea
18:26:59 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
18:27:00 <scarf> AnMaster: or OpenJDK?
18:27:18 <scarf> those should both be out of oracle's control whatever happens
18:27:51 <scarf> (IcedTea and OpenJDK are both different completions of the bits of Sun's JDK that they were legally allowed to open-source (i.e. not licenced from a third party), which was most of it)
18:28:33 <cpressey> Actually, by "completely destroy" I was trying to evoke what happened to Perl from 5 to 6, and (to a lesser degree) in Python from 2 to 3.
18:28:39 <scarf> http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html
18:28:45 <scarf> cpressey: hmm, but aren't those good things?
18:28:50 <cpressey> scarf: !
18:29:04 <scarf> perl6 isn't really production-ready yet, but it's one of the most mindblowing wonderful languages I know, especially if you have an esolanger mindset
18:29:10 <cpressey> scarf: !!
18:29:24 <scarf> there are something like ten different ways of writing an anonymous function and passing arguments to it
18:29:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, what is wrong with python 3
18:30:04 <AnMaster> any more than python 2 that is
18:30:10 <AnMaster> they fixed some stuff in it iirc
18:30:20 <AnMaster> like integer division now being //
18:31:00 <cpressey> It would take too long for me to explain fully, I think. Until I can compose it, suffice to say, I think those languages both "jumped the shark" at those points.
18:31:09 <cpressey> And I suspect Java 7 will be similar.
18:31:21 <scarf> cpressey: oh, I can imagine the sharkjumping
18:31:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, I prefer python 3 to python 2
18:31:28 <scarf> there's a reason perl5 is still developed
18:31:38 <scarf> I think perl6 is a different language with an unfortunately similar name
18:31:39 <cheater2> oerjan: function level programming is not functional programming
18:31:41 <scarf> although not very different
18:32:47 <cheater2> oerjan: function level programming is something completely different. it is a way of describing programs by transforming functions with functionals. you cannot write your own functions, and you have no variables. the only way you can get new functions is by applying functionals to existing functions.
18:33:05 <cpressey> AnMaster: The main problem I have with Python 3 is that continuing to call it "Python" suggests that migrating your existing Python code base to it will be ... easy! A piece of cake! You should do it!
18:33:05 <scarf> cheater2: sort-of like concatenative langs?
18:33:38 <scarf> $ 5to6 some_complicated_perl5_file.pl
18:33:38 <cpressey> Lua seems to have a better philosophy about "progress", overall, I think. Just my opinion.
18:33:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, I have done it. wasn't too hard. Migrating an application using the C API to make python an embedded scripting language was worse
18:33:49 <AnMaster> and I have done that too
18:33:53 <cpressey> AnMaster: how many LoC?
18:34:04 <AnMaster> and thanks to ifdefs made it compile against both python 2 and 3
18:34:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, around 1000 or so in total there. Also done a few other programs
18:34:49 <scarf> AnMaster: 1000's almost short enough to rewrite
18:35:01 <cpressey> AnMaster: Depending on how many 3rd party packages?
18:35:03 <cheater2> scarf: yes
18:35:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, most could be done by using some of the patches suggested by 2to3 (some patches like changing "in range(...)" to "in list(range(...))" weren't required)
18:35:22 <AnMaster> cpressey, one third party one. why?
18:35:22 <cheater2> cpressey: that also applies to you (FLP is not in any way related to FP)
18:35:37 <AnMaster> cpressey, so the third party ones need to be ported first
18:35:48 <AnMaster> and yes that one was tricky, it was a C json library.
18:35:58 <AnMaster> which depended on byte rather than unicode strings
18:36:03 <cpressey> AnMaster: I'm just suggesting that your example is small, compared to lots of Python codebases out there.
18:36:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, true, it isn't completely painless, but not too bad I found
18:36:35 <AnMaster> cpressey, also why are you using third party libs? NIH NIH! ;P
18:37:02 <scarf> hmm, ideally code should be written to be so portable it can easily be transferred to a different /language/
18:37:19 <cpressey> cheater2: So design an imperative function-level programming language :)
18:37:31 <scarf> oh, of course, you just write it as compiled BF, that works
18:37:52 <AnMaster> scarf, that *always* works
18:38:00 <AnMaster> ;P
18:38:12 <scarf> gah, I just had an urge to mention PSOX again
18:38:13 <AnMaster> scarf, well you might need psox ;P
18:38:16 <scarf> snap
18:38:22 <AnMaster> argh same second here
18:39:01 <scarf> we've clearly become some sort of hivemind
18:39:17 <AnMaster> hah
18:39:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, iirc you had some erlang code on your website? do you still use it?
18:39:58 <AnMaster> (the language that is)
18:40:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: Unfortunately, I haven't touched Erlang in a while.
18:40:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, how long? since before the unicode support?
18:41:07 <cpressey> AnMaster: Yeah, probably about then. I remember it being discussed, I don't remember actually using it.
18:41:13 <scarf> AnMaster: oh no, you aren't going to launch into an issue of what RAND_MAX should be on a bignum system again, are you?
18:41:22 <AnMaster> scarf, not his fingerprint
18:41:27 <cpressey> The continuous growing size of the OTP distribution frightens me :)
18:41:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, well efunge is written in erlang. I'm not aware of any other bignum funge
18:42:02 <AnMaster> (also I'm the author of efunge, as well as cfunge)
18:42:04 <cpressey> Ah, well. Funge, like C, was never designed with bignum implementations in mind...
18:42:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, well yes indeed. Currently I'm considering bignum intercal
18:42:34 <AnMaster> which would be just craz
18:42:36 <AnMaster> crazy*
18:43:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, anyway I'm also working on a fingerprint for async threads in efunge. work in progress.
18:43:19 <cpressey> More than I care to put in my brain at the moment, yes.
18:43:26 <AnMaster> some part works
18:43:45 <cpressey> Interesting...
18:43:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, really t feels so silly when you have multiple cores and possibly multiple nodes.
18:43:59 <AnMaster> really,*
18:44:09 <AnMaster> so that is where this things comes into it
18:44:31 <AnMaster> actually the multiple nodes might pose a problem since I use an ets table for funge-space.
18:44:41 <AnMaster> multiple nodes scenario*
18:45:03 <cpressey> Well, internal threads don't seem very Funge-like somehow... traditionally multiple IPs take their place ... not to discourage the development of a fingerprint to do it, of course.
18:45:16 <cpressey> But when you introduce nodes.... yeah.
18:45:30 <cheater2> cpressey: i am not sure that imperative style would be good for FLP, since there is no assignment in FLP
18:45:37 <cpressey> Hard to see how to mesh those with Befunge's model.
18:45:42 <AnMaster> I guess I could switch to mnesia, but that would be horribly slow
18:45:43 <cheater2> cpressey: btw, porting from py2 to py3 should be easy
18:45:54 <cheater2> cpressey: not much harder than porting 2.6 to 2.5 for example
18:45:59 <cheater2> or 2.4
18:46:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, the fingerprint provides sync g, p and compare-and-swap (as G, P and C), the normal g and p (and other write/reads) are not guaranteed to be visible right away to other threads. Each thread can contain multiple IPs in theory (but efunge atm doesn't implement t)
18:47:20 <AnMaster> also these threads wouldn't block each other when waiting for IO, unlike IPs in befunge normally do
18:47:31 <scarf> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476766& https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542689
18:47:32 <cpressey> cheater2: It doesn't have to be "good", but if you can't get away from using functions for everything, you'll have a hard time convincing me that function-level has no relation to functional programming.
18:48:08 <cheater2> cpressey: function level programming does not produce results like you expect from normal programs.
18:48:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh and I predict that distributed funge will be all the rage instead of java or .NET in 10 years ;P
18:48:19 <cheater2> the output of a function level program is a program that is not written in FLP.
18:49:15 <AnMaster> cheater2, is it per chance written in #!/bin/cat ?
18:49:18 <cheater2> as i understand it, FLP is a kind of meta-programming language which allows you to define programs which then could be executed using some other runtime.
18:49:26 <cpressey> cheater2: You keep making exceptional-sounding claims about function-level programming, but at the same time, you keep asking the channel what function-level programming would be like.
18:50:15 <cheater2> cpressey: i am making claims about what i understand it as. but i'm interested in what other people understand it as. if someone contradicts what i say, of course they are wrong. ;-)
18:52:12 <cheater2> cpressey: a sort of constructive argument for coming up with ideas and concepts :-)
18:53:42 <cpressey> cheater2: Well, I will say I don't see a lot of support for the idea that it's a meta-language. I totally agree that it's not the same as (what we know today as) functional programming. My guess would be that Backus' thesis was to make a strong distinction and separation between values, functions, and functionals. (Whereas functional programming emphasizes that functions are values, and can be functionals.)
18:54:56 <cheater2> yes, that is my impression too
18:54:58 <cpressey> But other than that, it seems to share a lot of ideas from functional programming. Like that you create new functions by transforming existing ones. And that a program is a mapping from inputs to outputs.
18:55:13 <cheater2> i think the idea was too completely separate the data from the program structure
18:55:39 <cheater2> so, yes, you had a program which calculates the area of a circle given the radius and the current value of pi
18:56:00 <cheater2> but what's important, i think, is that he also separated the description framework
18:56:00 <AnMaster> that reminds me of one thing in freebsd kernel source
18:56:02 <cpressey> cheater2: that might be. If so... one of my language designs is "function-level" in that sense
18:56:08 <AnMaster> #define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60
18:56:10 <AnMaster> yes really
18:56:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:56:20 <AnMaster> at least it wasn't a runtime variable
18:56:24 <cheater2> i.e. that program, which calculates the area, is not written in the same language it was defined in.
18:57:18 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/larabee/ forbids literals in the program -- all values have to be read from input.
18:57:37 <cheater2> so, you define a program such as: print(multiply(arg2(),multiply(arg2(),arg2()))
18:57:51 <cpressey> But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X.
18:58:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:58:21 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:58:24 <cheater2> and this program definition is defined in CFLPL which is cheater's function level programming language
18:58:33 <cpressey> cheater2: ok ...
18:58:51 <cheater2> and then it gets compiled to: code which is executable in php.
18:59:11 <cheater2> i think i've heard of larabee before
18:59:34 <cheater2> ah, it was the name of the intel gpu thing
19:00:41 <cpressey> Hm, 2 r's in the spelling of the gpu thing, but yes. I wasn't aware of that
19:01:47 <cheater2> i wasn't aware of the 2 r's
19:01:47 <cheater2> :D
19:01:57 <cheater2> have you ever used happstack cpressey?
19:02:15 <AnMaster> <cpressey> But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. <-- if it treats it like C does, as integers, then you could use that to get 0 and 1, then get the rest of the values from there
19:02:17 <cpressey> cheater2: No.
19:02:36 <cpressey> AnMaster: right, or if you have arithmetic, X-X = 0, X/X = 1.
19:02:49 <cpressey> (or DivByZero exception :) )
19:02:56 <AnMaster> yeah
19:03:27 <AnMaster> cpressey, and then you can do (basically) 2=1+1 4=2*2 and so on
19:03:58 <cheater2> it's fruitless, there's no point in doing that
19:04:02 <AnMaster> would it be possible to make a tc language where this wasn't possible
19:04:25 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, forbid copying maybe?
19:04:43 <cpressey> AnMaster: although I don't think that'll get you very far :)
19:04:46 <AnMaster> cpressey, would it be tc then?
19:04:54 <AnMaster> and yes I suspect you could work around it
19:05:10 <cpressey> AnMaster: If my work on Larabee isn't completely whack, I think it's not TC.
19:05:35 <cpressey> If you can't copy, then you rely on two inputs and you can't guarantee they're equal, so you can't guarantee a constant
19:05:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, I suspect it is possible to get known constants in any tc program that can not hard code literals (but that can use input)
19:05:57 <AnMaster> not 100% sure though
19:06:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: Definitely an interesting line of inquiry.
19:06:22 <AnMaster> cpressey, but then isn't the program bounded by the number of arguments
19:06:26 <AnMaster> and thus sub-tc
19:07:12 <cpressey> AnMaster: I don't think it is -- you don't need to hard-code much, to start off a computation that produces an infinite amount of output
19:07:27 <cpressey> Like, computing pi to an indefinate # of decimal places
19:07:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, so it is allowed to copy those values once calculated?
19:07:40 <AnMaster> just not use an argument more than once?
19:08:17 <AnMaster> then it could just do it like X = arg1(), One = X / X, Zero = X - X.
19:08:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, that's where it gets tricky :) I think most models of computation rely on being able to copy values internally.
19:08:18 -!- scarf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:08:33 <AnMaster> ( heh I just realised that was potentially valid erlang code)
19:08:43 <AnMaster> well, it would need div, but otherwise)
19:09:32 <AnMaster> (just define arg1() to something suitable calling something in the init module to get the arguments)
19:10:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, well if you can't copy then internally you are probably subtc
19:10:38 <cpressey> I just checked, and Larabee allows you to store and fetch input, and do arithmetic. However, to fetch a value from memory, you need to supply and index which... must come from input. So I still think Larabee is sub-TC.
19:10:48 <AnMaster> since you can use each argument, then those new things can be used as one input in another computation
19:11:15 <AnMaster> and then the these results only used once
19:11:16 <AnMaster> and so on
19:11:21 <AnMaster> until you had no more input
19:11:22 <AnMaster> hm
19:11:29 <AnMaster> I think you could do "not" forever
19:11:32 <AnMaster> since it is unary
19:11:35 <cpressey> Ugh, my brain is hurting now.
19:11:43 <cpressey> I should probably have lunch.
19:11:46 <AnMaster> but any binary operators would reduce the number of variables to use
19:11:49 <AnMaster> brb
19:13:14 <Gregor> Ohhey, ehird is gone?
19:13:17 <Gregor> Didn't even notice that.
19:14:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:14:54 <Gregor> That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time.
19:15:22 <oklopol> yeah ehird is hard to notice
19:15:38 <oklopol> you'd have to own a computer
19:16:36 <Gregor> In five days he'll join and see that the topic says "20 days since last ehird sighting" :P
19:17:26 <AnMaster> back
19:17:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, ... or not
19:18:13 <AnMaster> (depends on if we remember to update it ;P)
19:18:21 <Gregor> Well, true.
19:18:37 <Gregor> Oh btw, go to http://sun.com/
19:18:38 <Gregor> And cry.
19:18:40 <fizzie> 15 days since our last workplace accident.
19:19:13 <fizzie> fungot: seen ehird
19:19:14 <fungot> fizzie: are there documents of that in the general context of the article) contains essentially the whole difference between
19:19:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: RIP sun.com | 15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:19:40 <fizzie> That's not a very good "seen" command, though I guess it *could* produce the correct reply too.
19:19:48 <Gregor> fizzie: 'snot likely :P
19:20:26 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:20:27 <oerjan> cheater2: i know that function level programming is not functional programming.
19:20:30 -!- cheater3 has joined.
19:21:19 <MissPiggy> cheater3 "Oh not this again"
19:21:21 <MissPiggy> NO U
19:21:48 <cheater3> what?
19:22:23 <oerjan> cheater3: oh FP doesn't refer to functional programming, it refers to backus' original function-level language
19:22:37 <cheater3> oh ok
19:22:55 <oerjan> (btw i'm answering old messages so i have no idea what you are saying now yet)
19:23:59 <AnMaster> <fizzie> fungot: seen ehird <-- implement such a command then
19:24:00 <fungot> AnMaster: deep macrology? beh, beh. i don't seem to have run into the fnord status.'
19:26:41 <fizzie> Didn't one of the bots already have such a thing?
19:26:55 <MissPiggy> hehe
19:27:01 <MissPiggy> fungot, style
19:27:01 <fungot> MissPiggy: you can always fnord the occasional scheme code here. use lisppaste.
19:27:24 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, but it might not be a good idea to fnord Scheme.
19:27:25 <fungot> fizzie: glyp glof! varsinkin se yksi ( jos se en on siell), jossa ne fnord niit fnord! fnord!" " jenwolf sucks!" " fnord
19:27:37 <fizzie> Heh, a rare bit of Finnish there.
19:28:29 <Deewiant> "glyp glof"?
19:28:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, you are heavy on the fnords over there!
19:28:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know what that was about.
19:29:22 <Deewiant> I am disconcerted by the notion that both "glyp" and "glof" occur often enough to not be "fnord"
19:29:59 <fizzie> "Often enough" means "more than once" here, but still.
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:44] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, glof glyp!"PrntNl
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:48] < oklobot2> Argle bargle, glof glyp!
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:54:53] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, "PrntNl "glyp glof!"PrntNl
19:30:42 <fizzie> 2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:55:00] < oklobot2> glyp glof!
19:30:49 <fizzie> Seems that you can blame oerjan.
19:30:57 <fizzie> (Well, you can always blame oerjan!)
19:31:15 <Deewiant> oerjan: Consider yourself blamed!
19:33:51 <fizzie> The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01.
19:35:15 <oerjan> fizzie: lambdabot has a @seen command, i don't know about any here...
19:36:23 <oerjan> Deewiant: glyp and glof are famous H2G2 words
19:36:35 <oerjan> or wait
19:36:40 <oerjan> that's glop glyf
19:37:14 <fizzie> 2006-11.log:[2006-11-12 21:09:23] < oerjan> !bf_txtgen Argle bargle, glop glyf
19:37:14 <fizzie> 2008-11.log:[2008-11-15 00:32:26] < oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf
19:37:15 <fungot> fizzie: don't throw the pic away, i'll check that out. how do you implement by yourself
19:37:17 <fizzie> It's always you.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> I could tell envbot to join, it has a seen command
19:37:41 <AnMaster> but due to being written in bash it isn't very esoteric
19:38:03 <fizzie> I'm not totally convinced we need one. And anyway, fungot ought to be clever enough to spontaneously develop one.
19:38:03 <fungot> fizzie: hey! eso already exists. and, instruction and operand ( including numbers)
19:38:44 <oerjan> argh no, not the blaming!
19:39:53 * oerjan is no a jour
19:39:55 <oerjan> *now
19:41:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> argh no, not the blaming! <-- is it just me, or was this a very vague and obscure discworld reference?
19:41:12 <oerjan>
19:41:17 <AnMaster> (iirc, one of the tiffany series?)
19:41:41 <oerjan> not a chance, unless my unconscious has read more pratchett than me
19:41:48 <AnMaster> ah...
19:44:38 * oerjan would not rule that out entirely though
19:46:48 <oklopol> turns out sometimes his recalls really are vague
19:47:09 <oerjan> you think?
19:48:38 <oklopol> i haven't caught that many errors
19:48:52 <oklopol> compared to the amount of vaguations
19:49:53 <oerjan> well obviously my really vague recalls are about ancient mysteries lost in time that you youngsters would have no hope of checking *MWAHAHAHA*
19:50:37 <oerjan> either that, or possibly i left no witnesses.
20:01:32 <cpressey> "take only photographs, leave no witnesses." i like that.
20:04:54 <oerjan> i'm not really that big on photographs either
20:06:24 <cpressey> Oooh yeah, they can be used as evidence of a court of law, cain't they. Well nix that then.
20:06:38 <cpressey> s/of/in/
20:06:57 <oerjan> of, too, i believe
20:07:33 <oerjan> also an excellent place to leave no witnesses
20:23:30 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:30:32 <Gregor> HEY that's a segue to http://codu.org/projects/zee/
20:30:38 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
20:30:38 <Gregor> Thanks for the segue guys
20:30:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:31:20 <oklopol> i've had that idea
20:31:31 <oklopol> i think i almost considered doing something with it
20:31:38 <oklopol> or well, maybe not *almost*
20:31:55 <oklopol> but not much less
20:32:11 <Gregor> Have you had PLOT ideas? :P
20:32:24 <oklopol> no. plots make games impure.
20:32:29 <oklopol> as do "based on"'s
20:32:35 <Gregor> :P
20:32:58 * oklopol likes his games flash and ball.
20:33:16 <oklopol> ball being the objects, flash being how the game is implemented
20:33:36 <oklopol> but umm plot...
20:33:54 <fizzie> "Based on true story" games!
20:34:18 <oerjan> based on a filthy lie
20:35:09 <oklopol> Gregor: i might consider thinking about a plot, in the future maybe, or not.
20:35:24 <oklopol> would be so awesome
20:35:30 -!- speeskees has joined.
20:35:36 <oklopol> if it was like a 10 hour game, but you just have one crime scene photo
20:37:54 -!- speeskees has left (?).
20:38:22 <oklopol> wouldn't be a problem to do realistic rendering for the graphics :P
20:50:23 -!- adam_d has joined.
21:09:01 <Gregor> Nearly every definition of "execute" is nearly antonymous with "terminate". Except for the most common one, which is synonymous. Funny thing, English.
21:19:19 <oklopol> and the most common one is what?
21:19:44 * oerjan executes a swatting, terminating oklopol -----###
21:20:48 <Gregor> As in execution. Mr. Bobbert was executed.
21:20:48 <olsner> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL <-- hmm, this is interesting
21:21:00 <olsner> try to build a polyglot in all variants of that language :)
21:21:12 <oklopol> if you mean the one that involved killing, i checked two dictionaries, in one it was the second to last meaning, in the other one there wasn't even a mention of that use. granted, these are pretty crappy dictionaries
21:21:17 <oklopol> *involves
21:21:24 <oerjan> also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower
21:21:26 <cpressey> "execute" = euphemism for "execute a death warrant"
21:21:37 <Gregor> Yes, I know.
21:21:41 <oklopol> yeah, i'm pretty sure that's the least used meaning
21:21:41 <Gregor> But that doesn't matter.
21:21:45 <Gregor> That's how words come to be.
21:21:47 <Gregor> oklopol: ???
21:21:52 <Gregor> oklopol: Maybe for a computer scientist.
21:22:01 <oklopol> and based on the dictionaries
21:22:26 <Gregor> Dictionaries don't index by meaning frequency ...
21:22:29 <oklopol> checked two other web ones and there was no mention of killing
21:22:32 <oklopol> true...
21:22:58 <Gregor> Meaning #3 at dictionary.coim is: " to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law."
21:23:07 <Gregor> I argue that that is the most common meaning understood by English speakers.
21:23:21 <pikhq> oklopol: It may not be in sane countries, but I'm in a country with the death sentence.
21:23:28 <oklopol> heh
21:23:29 <cpressey> I think what's more remarkable is the frequency of use of euphemisms in English-speaking countries...
21:23:30 <pikhq> Executions, y'know, *happen* here.
21:23:51 <Gregor> cpressey: I don't think it's legit to say it's still a euphemism for that. It's just taken on that meaning.
21:24:04 <oklopol> that's true... i think of executing as a term you'd only need when talking about 14th century france
21:24:10 <oklopol> i mean the killing one
21:24:33 <cpressey> Gregor: I hold a different opinion - the euphemistic meaning has become the dominant one, but it's still a euphemism.
21:24:39 <oerjan> 14th century france, 21st century US, what's the difference *ducks*
21:25:01 <oklopol> ducks are very different in usa, yes
21:25:37 <pikhq> Gameboy emulators without any sort of throttling...
21:25:43 <pikhq> Hard to play most games with.
21:25:44 <Gregor> pikhq: lawl
21:25:46 <pikhq> *Amazing* for RPGs.
21:26:03 <pikhq> "Suck it, grinding.":
21:26:16 <Gregor> THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
21:28:15 <oklopol> there really should be something that lists frequencies of different meanings of words, at least a rough estimate
21:29:22 <Gregor> This is Mr. Command. Execute him!
21:29:23 <oerjan> may be hard to determine
21:29:47 <oklopol> or not.
21:29:56 <oklopol> maybe in 1% of cases
21:30:08 <oklopol> "does this word mean do or kill?"
21:30:48 <oerjan> i mean for an entire dictionary
21:31:05 <oklopol> not that do and execute are actually synonyms in any context
21:31:51 <oklopol> maybe it could be so rough an estimate it's actually just random numbers
21:32:19 <fizzie> oklopol: Wordnet has count-of-occurrences-in-tagged-texts, which sort of tries to be an estimate for that.
21:32:35 <fizzie> oklopol: It's just that not all meanings even have any counts there.
21:33:18 <fizzie> It sort of works for "real common" / "not so common" distinguishment; for red as an adjective:
21:33:20 <fizzie> The adj red has 3 senses (first 3 from tagged texts)
21:33:21 <fizzie>
21:33:21 <fizzie> 1. (43) red, reddish, ruddy, blood-red, carmine, cerise, cherry, cherry-red, crimson, ruby, ruby-red, scarlet -- (of a color at the end of the color spectrum (next to orange); resembling the color of blood or cherries or tomatoes or rubies)
21:33:21 <fizzie> 2. (8) crimson, red, violent -- (characterized by violence or bloodshed; "writes of crimson deeds and barbaric days"- Andrea Parke; "fann'd by Conquest's crimson wing"- Thomas Gray; "convulsed with red rage"- Hudson Strode)
21:33:22 <fizzie> 3. (7) crimson, red, reddened, red-faced, flushed -- ((especially of the face) reddened or suffused with or as if with blood from emotion or exertion; "crimson with fury"; "turned red from exertion"; "with puffy reddened eyes"; "red-faced and violent"; "flushed (or crimson) with embarrassment")
21:34:07 <oklopol> well, execute?
21:34:22 <fizzie> 1. (2) execute, put to death -- (kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed")
21:34:22 <fizzie> 2. (1) execute -- (murder in a planned fashion; "The Mafioso who collaborated with the police was executed")
21:34:22 <fizzie> 3. (1) carry through, accomplish, execute, carry out, action, fulfill, fulfil -- (put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation")
21:34:27 <fizzie> The other four meanings don't have a count.
21:34:32 <fizzie> Or have a count of zero, if you prefer.
21:35:06 <oklopol> why would you use a 14th century dictionary
21:35:38 <fizzie> It is up to you how much a meaning you derive from one or two mentions.
21:36:05 <oerjan> to spelle properlie, of course
21:36:49 <oklopol> the less data i have, the wilder i can let my imagination run when interpreting it.
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21:39:13 <Gregor> *rewinding*
21:39:16 <GreaseMonkey> ...i never used an oracle thing in my life
21:39:24 <Gregor> cpressey: That seems like a very prescriptivist approach to language.
21:39:32 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: YOU HAVE NOW
21:40:01 <Gregor> cpressey: And IMHO prescriptivism is pretty silly for English in particular, and language in general.
21:40:06 <GreaseMonkey> Gregor: the versions of java i have were pre-oracle
21:40:06 <cpressey> Gregor: Prescriptivist? I'm not the one claiming throwing around "not legit to say that" :)
21:40:10 <cpressey> s/claiming//
21:40:37 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i'm hoping they'll keep releasing open stuff
21:40:45 <Gregor> cpressey: Fair enough :P
21:41:08 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: I was assuming that all Sun things, past and present, were now Oracle things. And in that case, it's amusing that you think Java is the only Sun thing you use.
21:41:24 <oklopol> prescriptivism is the only way mankind could ever escape the horrors of natural language
21:41:36 <GreaseMonkey> it's probably not the only thing
21:41:40 <GreaseMonkey> uhh...
21:41:48 <GreaseMonkey> what else do you think i'd use?
21:42:00 <GreaseMonkey> i've really only done j2se and j2me
21:42:03 <GreaseMonkey> afaik
21:42:09 <Gregor> Do use any Unix system?
21:42:17 <oklopol> what, you think language is just going to *evolve* into something sensible? do you know how ridiculous that sounds...
21:42:37 <Gregor> Sun has tentacles in every corner of nearly every Unix system. Maybe not huge portions, but little bits everywhere.
21:43:38 <GreaseMonkey> i use freebsd here, linux on my lappy
21:43:46 <GreaseMonkey> not using any zfs.
21:44:08 <GreaseMonkey> i actually use the diablo jdk
21:44:11 <GreaseMonkey> on freebsd
21:44:44 <Gregor> Sun is a contributor to the Linux kernel, X11, GNOME off the top of my head.
21:44:47 * oerjan notes that augur isn't here, must be why oklopol hasn't been mauled yet
21:44:56 <Gregor> And aside from that, everything else. Everything.
21:45:33 <GreaseMonkey> OK i'm having trouble finding the j2se library documentation
21:45:34 <cpressey> Oh no, Sun has contributed to open-source products I use every day. How shall I ever escape their diabolical grip.
21:45:37 <oerjan> everything under the sun
21:46:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:46:16 <Gregor> I'm not saying anything negative about Sun, I'm just saying that the not-insubstantial possibility that they'll stop being the Sun we know and love is bad.
21:46:46 <oerjan> cpressey: you'll have to cleanse it in holy water, i hear jews do that
21:46:50 -!- augur has joined.
21:47:11 <GreaseMonkey> found it: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/
21:47:12 <oerjan> mind you i'm not sure if they apply it to electronics
21:47:33 <oklopol> probably applies well to programs
21:48:00 <fizzie> Misread "Sun has contraband in open-source products I use every day". That's quite a statement.
21:48:20 <GreaseMonkey> dear oracle: why did it take about 5 clicks from the front page to get to the j2se API documentation?
21:48:37 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: Because you should have gone to java.sun.com ?
21:48:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:49:02 <fizzie> I tend to google for "java api" and go from there; never bothered to bookmark the thing.
21:49:02 <cpressey> So glad I'm not a "Java person".
21:49:15 <GreaseMonkey> ...hmmkay... i shall hopefully remember that
21:49:17 <cpressey> No offense to any "Java people" here of course.
21:49:31 <Gregor> Java people need more offense :P
21:49:39 <oerjan> i don't think we have many indonesians here
21:50:01 <GreaseMonkey> takes 4 clicks
21:50:25 <GreaseMonkey> i attempted to make a java decompiler once
21:50:26 <oklopol> read those two sentences as one, "oerjan: i don't think we need any indonesians here"
21:50:32 <GreaseMonkey> i could get the bytecode alright
21:50:45 <oklopol> that was slightly out of character for oerjan
21:50:53 <GreaseMonkey> however i think i was lacking in knowledge of decompilers
21:50:53 <fizzie> I guess I could share a homework question answer reply from comp.lang.c I found amusing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/a64002d547d3a95f
21:50:57 <oerjan> *slightly*
21:51:34 <GreaseMonkey> ...people still use usenet?
21:51:51 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, yes of course
21:52:07 <AnMaster> don't you?
21:52:11 <GreaseMonkey> nope.
21:52:15 <fizzie> Of course they do; clc is a very very active group. Admittedly it's mostly full of spam and bizarre madness, as opposed to on-topic things, but still.
21:52:19 <GreaseMonkey> unless i'm encountering archives and stuff
21:52:26 <Deewiant> Hence, clcm.
21:52:41 <Gregor> lol
21:52:46 <Gregor> fizzie: How delightfully useless :P
21:52:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: What, and not read all that spinoza1111 stuff?
21:53:03 <Deewiant> Yes, exactly. :-P
21:53:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: And all Kenny McCormick crossposts between comp.lang.c and rec.games.bridge?
21:53:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, clcm?
21:54:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: comp.lang.c.moderated.
21:54:04 <AnMaster> ah
21:54:06 <AnMaster> oh
21:54:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, those too.
21:54:12 <AnMaster> so clc was not about clc-intercal?
21:54:15 <AnMaster> argh
21:54:19 <AnMaster> fooling me like that
21:54:28 <Deewiant> You are as easily fooled as ever.
21:54:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: Given that I had mentioned the full "comp.lang.c" name in my previous comment, I thought the abbreviation safe.
21:54:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: That price is too high to pay for some peace and quiet.
21:55:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, meh
21:55:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't read the full url
21:55:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's also in the text before the URL.
21:55:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, "meh"
21:56:07 <AnMaster> if I can't spot it when re-reading, why would I have spotted it first time ;P
22:01:01 <cheater3> fizzie: what's the best way to do usenet?
22:01:07 <cheater3> fizzie: hopefully, free.
22:01:53 <fizzie> cheater3: I don't really know the best way; I just read using my ISP's NNTP server and slrn at the moment (though the actual newsreader changes from time to time).
22:02:07 <cheater3> hrm :(
22:02:23 <cheater3> i don't have an nntp server.. i don't even have 'an isp' (i travel a lot around da world)
22:02:27 <fizzie> Someone -- I don't remember who -- used http://www.eternal-september.org/ for that.
22:02:41 <fizzie> It should be somewhat free.
22:03:00 <oklopol> cheater3: what game do you cheat at to have the money for that?
22:03:12 <cheater3> oklopol: your mom
22:03:13 <Deewiant> Number of connections per day per user limited? That sounds like it sucks
22:03:14 <fizzie> (Though with some connection limits and no binaries-style groups.)
22:03:21 <cheater3> fizzie: that looks useful, thanks
22:03:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: Does your ISP provide the binaries-style groups?
22:03:42 <cheater3> Deewiant: probably not.
22:03:49 <cheater3> Deewiant: you use easynews for that.
22:04:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:43 <Deewiant> I was asking because he said explicitly that eternal-september doesn't, whereas it seems to me that it's more noteworthy if something does.
22:04:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think they do, though I might be wrong. "grep ^alt.binaries newsrc-nebula | wc -l" at least says 1911, but I haven't checked if the groups contain any content.
22:06:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: I do remember that Saunalahti (or Scifi) used to, because they also had a nifty service that decoded all alt.binaries groups automagically into files on a network filesystem that was visible on their shell server.
22:06:45 <Deewiant> heh
22:06:49 <Deewiant> How long ago was that?
22:07:18 <fizzie> I would guess late 1990s.
22:08:30 <Deewiant> alt.binaries.music appears to have 75k headers here at least; let's see if there's any content
22:08:39 <fizzie> There was something like a hundred gigabytes (this was a big deal back then) full of copyrighted software and porn.
22:08:47 <fizzie> And possibly a few other files, but that was the majority of it.
22:08:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, that link: "Today is September, 6000 1993, the september that never ends "
22:08:55 <AnMaster> that should possibly (not) be celebrated
22:09:35 <fizzie> Hey, is it the 6000th day today (in some time zones)? Almost went by without noticing.
22:09:38 <AnMaster> ais523 would be interested in it
22:09:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I just mentioned it!
22:10:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it was a reaction to that.
22:10:41 <Gregor> TIME FOR MOAR MST3K
22:10:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, "hey" implied (to me) "look what I found out"
22:11:04 <fizzie> No, it was "hey" in the "surprised interjection" sense.
22:11:13 <Deewiant> It does look like there's data there, too. So apparently Welho provides.
22:11:16 <AnMaster> hrrm
22:11:18 <AnMaster> very well then
22:11:28 <Deewiant> Elisa didn't, IIRC.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't what?
22:12:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and in addition to the news-decoding, they had a huge "/work" directory that was also usable for sharing large files with other Saunalahti customers; that one was also full of pirated software too, though not as much porn.
22:13:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: See e.g. http://sektori.com/uutinen/saunalahtea-moititaan-piratismin/1457/
22:13:15 <fizzie> I think it got discontinued after getting official notice like that.
22:13:30 <fizzie> But before that, it had been quietly distributing data for at least some years.
22:13:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Provide binary newsgroups.
22:13:51 <AnMaster> ah
22:14:01 <oklopol> "syytää" :P
22:14:25 <AnMaster> newszilla6.xs4all.nl provides binaries
22:14:35 <AnMaster> readonly only (afaik)
22:14:41 <AnMaster> also that is ipv6 only
22:17:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: And as for the "number of connections per day limited" of eternal-september.org, the limit is 1200 connections/day/user. You can connect 50 times per hour, almost once per minute; I would think you need to have a rather terminal combination of Usenet addiction and short attention span to run into that limit, assuming you just connect-read-disconnect (or even connect-fetch-disconnect-read) instead of automagically polling a lot.
22:18:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not keep-alive?
22:18:52 <Deewiant> What does "one connection" over NNTP actually do? Download one message?
22:19:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, you can keep it open pretty much as long as you wish, and I think newsreaders usually do.
22:19:54 <fizzie> Though that last part is just conjecture; certainly it'd be possible to write a newsreader that opens a separate connection whenever you click on a message.
22:19:54 <Deewiant> Ah, that's not much of a limit then indeed.
22:21:24 <AnMaster> night →↓←↑
22:22:21 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:23:16 <fizzie> Doing a cartwheel while going to sleep, how suspiciously athletic.
22:23:52 -!- adam_d has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:24:15 <cheater3> fizzie: what is the significance of september 1993?
22:24:52 <Deewiant> cheater3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
22:26:03 <cheater3> ahh haha
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22:34:56 <cpressey> Interesting. September 1993 is when Befunge was born :)
22:35:02 -!- augur has joined.
22:35:16 <oerjan> it's actually all your fault!
22:37:58 <cpressey> Yes, I'm proud of how much Befunge, and esolangs in general, have really helped lowered the social standards of teh internets.
22:38:27 * cpressey makes directionless squawking sounds
22:39:42 <oerjan> `define squawk
22:39:44 <HackEgo> * utter a harsh abrupt scream \ * the noise of squawking; "she awoke to the squawk of chickens"; "the squawk of car horns" \ * gripe: complain; "What was he hollering about?"
22:40:05 <oerjan> oh dear
22:40:23 <oerjan> well i guess madness takes its toll
22:41:08 <oerjan> that'll be 5 quarters
22:49:06 <cpressey> Oh, the madness I blame squarely on shared objects.
22:49:44 <oerjan> hmm
23:03:15 <oklopol> squared objects
23:07:16 <cpressey> Right on! Unit test segfaulted!
23:11:34 <oklopol> eh? can't you just multiply by it and check if the result is the same?
23:11:45 <oklopol> oh shit unit
23:12:00 <oklopol> yeah okay that's much harder to check
23:12:06 -!- coppro has joined.
23:12:12 <oerjan> i bet he tested the units but forgot the nulls
23:13:20 <oklopol> nulls are easy to test for, units are sort of hard. unless it's a field, then it's pretty easy.
23:13:25 <coppro> great, now we have to write null tests to go with our null tests?
23:14:00 <coppro> err
23:14:06 <coppro> null tests to go with our unit tests
23:14:23 <oerjan> clearly. any ring theorist could have told you that.
23:15:14 <oklopol> i can only assume cpressey is some sort of an applied ring theorist
23:15:52 <cheater3> sup oklopol
23:16:23 <oerjan> both sup and inf lately, i hear
23:16:49 <oerjan> but maybe i shouldn't spread private conversation
23:17:13 <oklopol> hehe
23:18:03 <oklopol> also coding theory, but i figured you wouldn't be that interested
23:18:19 <oerjan> i find it a bit too cryptic
23:18:26 <Sgeo_> Hm, someone pinged me
23:18:49 <FireFly> Well, I pong you
23:19:29 <oklopol> was trying to figure out what exactly makes a code C in 2^n a perfect tile, that is, one for which you can find such a_i's that a_i+C's exactly partition 2^n
23:19:31 * Sgeo_ will check logs as soon as Google Chrome recovers.
23:19:37 <olsner> ah, string rewriting, a prefect match for numerical computing
23:19:42 <olsner> *perfect
23:19:46 <oklopol> sizes are obvious, as is the fact linear codes and their translates all form perfect tiles
23:20:05 <oklopol> but there are codes that form perfect tiles that have seemingly no structure
23:20:39 <olsner> I might have incidentally built a thue interpreter too
23:20:46 <oklopol> (translate = take the code and add something to it)
23:21:02 <oerjan> what a curious incident
23:21:43 <oklopol> basically i've been playing with 2^4 hypercubes for hours
23:22:09 <Sgeo_> ...according to the logs, no one pinged me
23:22:12 <Sgeo_> *mindboggle*
23:22:15 <oerjan> and yet you still appear human
23:22:24 <oklopol> there you go
23:22:50 <oklopol> okay i'll do the following sleeping now:
23:28:32 <cpressey> * sleeping on my side * sleeping on my back * sleeping while standing
23:29:19 * Sgeo_ accidentally got pina colada chapstick, and doesn't even know what pina colada is
23:30:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1a_colada
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23:39:50 <cpressey> Too many ideas, too little time.
23:40:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:49:15 <cpressey> olsner: I read that as "I might have accidentally built a thue interpreter too"
23:54:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:54:14 <olsner> cpressey: I meant too as in "as well as what I was attempting to build"
23:54:56 <olsner> having already built about 3 of those while actually attempting to
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