< 1265328331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265328914 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oops-sama < 1265328946 0 :oops-sama!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1265330758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265331269 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265331800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265331808 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265331862 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265331953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265336431 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265336810 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam Hughes responded to me! *squee* < 1265336934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam Hughes? < 1265336968 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The qntm.org guy < 1265336982 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine Structure, the Ed stories, Geocide < 1265337160 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, he does things outside of everything2? < 1265337224 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265337286 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that the Fine Structure stuff, and I bet a good amount of his other fiction, is on both e2 and qntm < 1265337360 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265337394 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265338073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: www.qntm.org . Read. < 1265338089 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't, jibreel < 1265338224 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265338248 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyekulturny < 1265338256 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got it bookmarked now, though < 1265338819 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265340014 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265342435 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265343600 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265343784 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265344097 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265346689 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@174-16-214-234.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265346750 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265347030 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265348431 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265349918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i keep reading john gabriel's knols < 1265349924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts so much < 1265350005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, fiction? < 1265350017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch got to run bbl < 1265350323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265350335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1265350341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265350341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thems=[] < 1265350341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like i spoke with one of you at one point < 1265350348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about some sort of graph transformation < 1265350354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://knol.google.com/k/are-real-numbers-uncountable# < 1265350369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :famous fiction < 1265350371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was you, oklopol, i dont know < 1265350453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically it was a transformation of a rooted graph into a tree where like < 1265350476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "daughter" nodes of the any given node were all of the nodes that the original node in the graph was connected to by an edge < 1265350677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that sound familiar to anyone? < 1265350925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265350932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't recall any use for it < 1265351040 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-58.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265351057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats it called < 1265351059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me, please < 1265351060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265351108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a treificated graph, obviously < 1265351110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you -> < 1265351114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1265351119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo < 1265351126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know what its called! :( < 1265351215 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265351239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! :( < 1265352417 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265353165 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265353496 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-16-78-170.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265353516 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1265353573 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265354039 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-6-168.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265354583 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265356127 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265356799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265356800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265357731 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265360774 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265360805 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265361136 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265361759 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265362311 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265362342 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364317 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265364508 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265364508 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364552 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364563 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265364620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol, fiction? < 1265364631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this < 1265364674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't read them but there was a post about it on good math/bad math yesterday
< 1265367147 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265367868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265369296 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265371791 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265372880 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265373138 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265374203 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there something wrong with me? < 1265374212 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to write a program, and decided Java was the best language for it < 1265374234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1265374275 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far it's going rather well < 1265374290 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it < 1265374309 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: What kind of program? < 1265374323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think a java project of mine has ever failed < 1265374324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'm trying to write a ttyrec player that's better than any of the current ones < 1265374326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a GUI one < 1265374331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've just done semisimple uni projects < 1265374335 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with all sorts of interesting features < 1265374337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in it < 1265374397 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't allow much crazy stuff. But the reflection part is really nice... < 1265374407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to do crazy stuff, though < 1265375485 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much the only crazy thing I've seen Java allow is having a class, variable and function of the same name < 1265375805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most crazy thing I've done so far is subclassed BasicSliderUI and overloaded the method that paints the background < 1265375809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as to have a slider with a custom background < 1265376658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's that crazy? < 1265376727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't really, but it was a pain to figure out what to do < 1265381156 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381350 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381405 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265381497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this <-- ouch! < 1265381523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it <--- iirc there are plenty < 1265381545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the only ones I can remember the names of right now are eclipse and netbeans < 1265381564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and what the hell is that program? < 1265381568 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are plenty, I'm using netbeans because it's what I'm supposed to teach here < 1265381574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a ttyrec player < 1265381583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the crap < 1265381590 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the what the crap for? < 1265381604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that java would be best for that... < 1265381617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265381617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is ttyrec a text format? Or binary? < 1265381620 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary < 1265381630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's meant to be portable, cross-platform, GUI and have loads of features < 1265381632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to parse? < 1265381646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to parse, hard to interpret < 1265381660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fun: jaunty kernel *source* update, and modules, but no the actual kernel image itself < 1265381667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it changed patch level number < 1265381669 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the format's incredibly simple, and so is missing most of the particularly useful information, that would be needed to, say, upload < 1265381670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called < 1265381672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I noticed that too < 1265381681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in karmic, except there was a kernel update the next day < 1265381695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, any bug report for it in jaunty? < 1265381712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah here it is, ran apt-get update again < 1265381848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on arch (for updates): download size: 42.82 MB, installed size: 204.92 MB. Quite good compression. And arch packages are gzipped < 1265381866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't see any obvious "lots of text only" package either < 1265382144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh, conflict on menu.lst < 1265383815 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384022 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265384057 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384058 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265384058 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384608 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265384625 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385040 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265385390 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265385427 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385811 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-1-204.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265386536 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265386574 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265387020 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265387312 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah at the netbeans update dialog < 1265387327 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it concatenates the licences of all the updates that are being applied, and asking if you agree < 1265387344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I'm having to scroll through something like 10 copies each of the GPL and CDDL to see if there's anything else buried in there < 1265387460 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265387469 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there are other licences there too < 1265387474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 copies of the Apache licence so far < 1265387481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. A need for "license de-duping." < 1265387495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a modified BSD3 which bans using a particular name for derivative works < 1265387512 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Debian actually has that < 1265387512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you got to love the BSD license forking. < 1265387520 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it symlinks all the copies of the GPL to a common location < 1265387545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'll defeat it by rewording my BSD disclaimer! < 1265387565 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was kind-of scared there'd be a BSD4 in there somewhere < 1265387577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done about 2/3s, though, and haven't seen one yet < 1265387594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. Thou shalt not distribute as part of a "Hits of the 90's" compilation. < 1265387652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, LGPL < 1265387704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks OK < 1265387716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ridiculous thing is, that accepting an open-source licence agreement is generally irrelevant anyway < 1265387765 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that most of the conditions only apply once you copy it or modify it -- yes. < 1265387769 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what's wrong with bsd4? i am ignorant on that topic < 1265387777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: the "odious advertising clause" < 1265387790 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, they still make new versions of the unmodified? < 1265387793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the fourth clause of the original BSD licence basically required credit in documentation and on startup < 1265387801 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought they were gone from the new versions < 1265387803 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are < 1265387806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD3 is newer than BSD4 < 1265387809 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean the bsd 4clause < 1265387811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3-clause BSD, 4-clause bSD) < 1265387812 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BSD < 1265387813 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265387826 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, heh < 1265387832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some people, like the currently missing ehird, even advocate 2-clause < 1265387955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders whether to use an existing Java terminal implementation, or roll their own
< 1265388008 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rolling my own has the advantage of being able to put various customisations in, like starting halfway through the ttyrec < 1265388028 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and marking unknown positions with a "unknown" symbol until they're known < 1265388116 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265388745 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265389783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265390609 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265390679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The GNU opinion on "accepting license agreements" is "You must agree in order to use the rights given in the license. Using or installing this software is not one of those rights, so no need to agree with the license." < 1265390689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also appears to be the opinion by most sane people. < 1265390690 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agreed < 1265390786 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265391313 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265392716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooo.... SUSv3 (POSIX) implies the presence of a C99 compiler. And C99 implies the availability of SUSv3 system calls. Therefore C99 <-> POSIX? < 1265392767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, C99 implies the availability of a small subset of SUSv3 system calls. < 1265392783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's only because that's how you *implement* stdio.h. < 1265392797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 does not imply, say, fork. < 1265392865 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to uninstall this transformation pack thing < 1265392974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Interesting. And somewhat of a relief. < 1265393029 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different C standards have started taking features from the others, which is not exactly surprising < 1265393058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, I don't suppose you know of any sort of rough quick guide as to which headers are C99 and which are POSIX. < 1265393088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a list of C99 headers at the end of C99 itself < 1265393098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1265393099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to find one of the public drafts (the actual standard is behind a paywall) < 1265393111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a link somewhere... < 1265393175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you have to pay to see a standard? < 1265393186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that cheeses me off too < 1265393207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf < 1265393215 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at annex B in the table of contents < 1265393232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annex B summarises the contents of the headers, the table of contents says which they are < 1265393248 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although note that for a POSIX build, some things are added by POSIX to the standard C headers, just to annoy you < 1265393250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf -- heh, the date at the top is "Septermber 7, 2007" < 1265393281 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would presumably be a different draft of the same standard < 1265393296 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yours is newer than mine, probably works better < 1265393329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB restart home my comp survives < 1265393379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, WG14 made their reasoning behind C99 public: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/C99RationaleV5.10.pdf < 1265393505 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265393554 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265393663 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265393768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still a bit confused why -std=c89 disallows you from using POSIX things, then, but I suppose it is another case of just annoying me < 1265393833 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's not "disallow", it's "prevent compatibility problems" < 1265393861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perfectly legal to have a function called _exit() in a file that includes stdlib.h in C89, for instance < 1265393866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265393869 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try that in POSIX, and you'll get an error < 1265393880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then it is "disallow", but it's for a good reason. < 1265393885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265393904 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the C99 equivalent is called _Exit(), which isn't allowed in C89 because it starts with an underscore and a capital letter) < 1265393925 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265394008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think every personal project I've written in C99, relies on C99 only because it makes some POSIX call. Mostly nanosleep(). < 1265394047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, assuming that's POSIX and not some BSDism or something that just happens to be widely supported, would have to double check that. < 1265394103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX standardisation is a mess < 1265394104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it is. ok. < 1265394119 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nanosleep is in POSIX, I mean) < 1265394147 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how long it will be before a picosleep becomes necessary
< 1265394160 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eerm < 1265394180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers aren't fast enough for it to be useful yet < 1265394196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265394211 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've certainly written real-time Linux applications which grabbed hold of the scheduler and used carefully timed pauses to communicate with an external device in bursts < 1265394212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeerrm no, not yet. < 1265394251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was for an embedded system; telling the scheduler not to interrupt your process at all until it tells the other processes it's their turn is not the sort of thing you regularly do on a desktop OS) < 1265394312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AmigaOS forbid() and permit() come to mind. < 1265394364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cooperative multitasking is so nice. < 1265394394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to stop appearing in XML
< 1265394436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I dealt with it back when I was writing windows 3.1 programs < 1265394479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Linux has a cooperative-multitasking scheduler, but you need to be root, and include an unusual library, to be able to trigger it < 1265394490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1265394512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source of http://www.stubhub.com/all-cities/unc-tickets/ < 1265394513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265394966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably eat food at some point
< 1265395100 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265395372 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A program whose output is affected by the value returned by a call to setlocale might not be strictly conforming. If the only way in which the result affects the final output is by determining, directly or indirectly, whether to make another call to setlocale, then the program remains strictly conforming; but if the result affects the output in some other way, then it does not." < 1265395418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how nicely tortuous < 1265395583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have said torturous < 1265395635 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something nicely eso about a function whose only purpose is to determine whether to call it again < 1265395638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1265395650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, setlocale has side effects, meaning that it isn't quite so purely beautiful < 1265395654 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it would be worse if it didn't have .. < 1265395655 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265395771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, among other things, that means it's an undecidable problem to tell whether a C99 program is strictly conforming < 1265395801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make a turing machine of locales, or something < 1265395834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how most undecidable problems suggest Turing-complete esolangs < 1265395837 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(admittedly, you can do that /anyway/ in C99, but doing it with locales would be funny) < 1265395845 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the setlocale tarpit! < 1265395857 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265395866 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I read an article about cache effects recently < 1265395870 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was wondering about making an esolang out of those < 1265395886 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. multiple threads each of which can only store finite data each, but you can have arbitrarily many < 1265395906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only way they can communicate is by accessing lots of memory really quickly to change the relative running speeds of the others < 1265395936 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could work, as a design... < 1265396002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl -- need food. < 1265396007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be horrendously nonportable, but I think that's a plus < 1265396074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the deliberately slow language? < 1265396084 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLOBOL? < 1265396092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people just forgot about it, it wasn't particularly interesting < 1265396256 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265396261 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accidental hibernation is fun! < 1265396279 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not SLOBOL < 1265396309 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one olsner was making, with the conversion between base e and pi, or whatever < 1265396323 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265396328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that one < 1265396383 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265396462 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How easy/difficult would it be for someone with a weak grasp of Javascript to attempt to fix a WebKit specific issue with a website? < 1265396488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not massively difficult, although the problem might not be in the javascript < 1265396496 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rather depends on what the issue is, I'd imagine < 1265396506 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will attempt it
< 1265396516 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe make a Greasemonkey script < 1265396540 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be the savior of everyone at my school who loves Chrome and refuses to use Firefox or IE or IETab just for this specific site < 1265396559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That set includes me. I doubt that it includes anyone else, but still) < 1265397089 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265397112 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm < 1265397178 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a certain name for a higher-order function which takes two lists of the same length, and applies a function to the first element in both lists, the second, and so on? < 1265397192 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then returns the result as a new list < 1265397199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zipWith < 1265397204 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, thanks < 1265397242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1265397257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meeeeeeeeeee < 1265397273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you actually recognize that description of a graph-to-tree transformation i described last night? < 1265397315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Transitive closure? < 1265397328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: uh.. i dont _think_ so but who knows < 1265397348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a DAG, anyway. < 1265397372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a transformation that took a rooted graph and turned it into a tree where the daughters of each node N were the nodes N' that N was connected to by an edge in the graph < 1265397399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265397412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if your graph was { ab, bc, ac } rooted at a, the tree node for a would have tree nodes for a b and c as its daughters < 1265397425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, not transitive then. I thought you'd get all N' that could be reached from N. < 1265397430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nodes for b would have a b c as its daughters, etc. < 1265397443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds more like a spanning tree -- sort of the reverse of transitive closure. < 1265397448 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a spanning tree huh < 1265397452 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome! avast has a virus-scanning screensaver < 1265397459 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly, but similar < 1265397469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not a spanning tree at all :( < 1265397508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...union of all possible spanning trees? :) < 1265397521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265397522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265397525 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then! < 1265397531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the resulting tree is infinitely large < 1265397551 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265397659 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I run a screensaver at the same time XP turns off my monitor, will the screensaver still run? < 1265397662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So by most definitions of "tree" it's actually not a tree :) < 1265397677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it SORT of is :P < 1265397678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely nothing to do with a spanning tree if you ask me < 1265397692 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The screensaver has side-effects) < 1265397732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know the name for the structure, but really it is the exact same mathematical object in some sense < 1265397744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: same as what? < 1265397756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you just care about how things are connected to each other < 1265397759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds more like the closure of all infinite paths through the graph to me, now. < 1265397769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: as the original graph < 1265397777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, thats part of the point actually < 1265397790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont remember who first showed it to me, someone here i think < 1265397806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what does "closure" mean there? < 1265397808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at the time i thought, gosh thats useless isnt it < 1265397826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ive actually realized that its immensely important to something im working on < 1265397827 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe that's a stupid question < 1265397833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, union over a countable set, i think. < 1265397856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :countable set of what? or is that your definition for closure? < 1265397891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Countable set of infinite paths, in this case. < 1265397904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I hope that's countable :) < 1265397946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not; and what's the union of paths? do you take the set of nodes from each path and take the union of them? < 1265397952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get the connected component as a set < 1265397996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider a graph that forms a triangle, everytime you move you have two choices, now consider reals in binary representation < 1265398023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are good questions; I don't have answers, since I only started thinking about this 10 minutes ago. :P < 1265398103 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure usually means you have some set of things, and you have something you can do, and if the set is "closed under" the thing you can do, it's a closure of that thing < 1265398128 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can you have closures of uncountable sets? < 1265398141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!! < 1265398165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy! :o < 1265398166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topological closures are sets that are closed under convergent sequences < 1265398175 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology is all about uncountability < 1265398190 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is that a "yes"? < 1265398201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265398246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if i understood what you meant < 1265398272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can you take the closure of an uncountably large set w.r.t. some operation" < 1265398332 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so what' < 1265398346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sec. < 1265398365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's left is to define the operation. < 1265398392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have a graph with n nodes, and for each node there's a (potentially) uncountable set of infinite paths that starts at it. < 1265398408 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a truth < 1265398442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And each path is a countable list of nodes, is it fair to say that? < 1265398467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a path in a graph is a function from N to the set of nodes, imo < 1265398476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite graph that is < 1265398505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if f is the path, you have for all n that the edge (f(n), f(n+1)) is in the graph < 1265398516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, fair enough, but can it be represented as a countable list of nodes? < 1265398542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's a surjection from N isn't there :P < 1265398570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the graph I'm talking about it's infinite (yet). < 1265398576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if we define a path as a function from N to the nodes, then clearly there will only be |N| nodes in there < 1265398593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was under the impression that the origiinal thing was to be applied to finite graphs. I could be wrong. < 1265398594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... yes < 1265398601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, most likely < 1265398609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simpler that way, anyway :) < 1265398631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite graphs are sexy < 1265398655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coding theory is one of my current obsessions < 1265398714 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... to sketch the operation for closure I'm thinking of... in a finite graph g: for each set of paths starting at node n: for each node m in the list of nodes in the path: replace m with the set of paths that start at m in g < 1265398723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sloppy, but hopefully it captures the idea < 1265398750 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're actually making copies of the nodes in g < 1265398766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is the result must be a tree < 1265398776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I don't see that part :) < 1265398791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a closure is usually the closure of a set < 1265398799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't "see" it? < 1265398800 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ok, maybe I do. < 1265398801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It < 1265398813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a tree, because you're making copies of the nodes from g < 1265398830 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have no cycles. < 1265398856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the thing is if you have a finite thing, and your operations only give you more finite things if their parameters are finite, then the closure will be *finite* < 1265398863 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the objects in it will be finite < 1265398887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. If the original graph in this case is a tree (no cycles thus no infinite paths,) the result of applying this... whatsit... is finite. < 1265398888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations < 1265398898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "finiteness" is < 1265398918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without cycles the result contains infinite paths < 1265398921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can return < 1265398929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe < 1265398983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If "without cycles the result contains infinite paths" then I don't understand the construction, sorry :) < 1265399009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, if you have an undirected graph, then every edge is a loop < 1265399014 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, undirected. < 1265399018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mrrrh :) < 1265399033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, but that's why "well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe" < 1265399043 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1265399045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal covering graph! < 1265399046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case no one said no loops < 1265399054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the closest ive seen to it, oklopol < 1265399062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact its EXACTLY what i want < 1265399075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus reflexing edges < 1265399081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats ok, because thats dependent on the graph < 1265399183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just for trees says wp < 1265399198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to imagine the usefulness of an infinite tree in a practical application, but then, I'm not a mathematician :) < 1265399202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption < 1265399203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1265399231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: infinite just means you don't have to care it's finite. < 1265399243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Indeed. < 1265399247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extendable < 1265399256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even code this up as some sort of lazy generator... < 1265399261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my back.... hurts... < 1265399263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually its for any connected graph < 1265399274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: its totally lazy, yeah < 1265399286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any connected graph G, it is possible to construct its universal covering graph.[1] This is an instance of the more general universal cover concept from topology; the topological requirement that a universal cover be simply connected translates in graph-theoretic terms to a requirement that it be acyclic and connected; that is, a tree. < 1265399290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what i meant < 1265399295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also read < 1265399297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption" < 1265399298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it doesnt even have to be lazy, since as oklopol points out, the universal covering graph is essentially just the graph itself < 1265399322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast as far as you can tell locally < 1265399328 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wellll... you're kind of "looking at it lazily" :) < 1265399330 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... and god my back hurts < 1265399344 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265399350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i prefer to think of it as a graph iterator < 1265399376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"From this node, as far as I can tell by looking at my immediate edges, I am in fact surrounded by an infinite tree!!" < 1265399376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than a graph generator < 1265399409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to apply this to Hunt the Wumpus somehow. < 1265399558 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in wumpi < 1265399630 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265399770 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265399891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265400508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you guys, this is really quite simple: the vertices of your tree are the _paths_ from the root of your original graph. < 1265400529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I was trying to say, in a painful, pseudo-mathematical way. < 1265400570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then. < 1265400663 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, and I realize now I was possibly saying something much uglier. (Every node of the tree would have an uncountable number of branches. That's overkill.) < 1265400683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265400687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's the answer to how to represent it as a closure? < 1265400696 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it the answer to what its name is? < 1265400711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these were the two questions that were asked, not sure of others < 1265400719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the answer to how to define it easily... < 1265400726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's an answer, but it's a succinct way to describe it. < 1265400727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265400787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know that was an issue, anyway probably the tree doesn't actually contain the infinite paths, prolly came up with that myself < 1265400801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have augur's original q < 1265400820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would be a pretty weird tree :P < 1265400835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: unless your name is John Gabriel ;D < 1265400842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265400902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infinite paths would be separate connected components of the graph wouldn't they < 1265400913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean components of one node < 1265400925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i guess we'd need some sort of definition first < 1265400938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i meant finite paths < 1265400951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265400988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know you did, but i didn't, i said there'd be an uncountable amount of paths, because for some reason i thought the infinite paths would be there too < 1265400988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the right topology, you could have the finite paths converge at infinite ones < 1265401008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265401027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a graph's connectedness is just topological connectedness? < 1265401049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you include the edges as lines, so < 1265401066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean they're pretty discrete things... < 1265401068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwice the vertices seem somewhat isolated < 1265401105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the finite paths would form a discrete topology, while the infinite paths they converge to would be the non-isolated points < 1265401120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu, really you could only define open sets sensibly as connected components, or discrete topology. < 1265401126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265401128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265401149 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers when his math teacher (in 6th grade) put a question on our tests "Do your socks have holes in them"
< 1265401167 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was one of those joke questions, where the correct answer was that yes, all of them do < 1265401176 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in a topological sense, they do not < 1265401209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our open sets would be generated by {x} for all nodes x, and for all infinite paths, any of their infinite suffices < 1265401217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually for an acyclic graph you also have some non-hausdorff options, you can let the closure of a vertex be all the vertices reachable from it < 1265401233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm scratch acyclic, that works anyhow i think) < 1265401272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: unless you consider them complex entanglements of strings! < 1265401292 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh, sock theory, is there a complete categorization of topological socks? < 1265401336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: err, do you mean taking as closed sets the connected components in the graph sense? < 1265401351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and trees < 1265401360 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265401373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh no, i'm assuming a directed graph < 1265401376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265401380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/trees/forests/ < 1265401391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no wait < 1265401410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and finite partial orders < 1265401426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that might be forests too < 1265401430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what exactly would the topology be? < 1265401450 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1265401456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265401461 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265401476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed sets = for all nodes x all vertices reachable from x? < 1265401482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265401485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah cool < 1265401492 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265401500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexy stuff < 1265401509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also make that the definition of open, well that's just reversing the graph really < 1265401533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for finite spaces the axioms for open sets == the axioms for closed sets < 1265401572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, good point < 1265401682 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1265401814 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402183 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-241-129.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402389 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265402435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually the first time I've ever seen topology and graph theory linked in a coherent way. Not that I really understand what oerjan said... < 1265402519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265402525 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1265402562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway limits require a topology, and linking finite and infinite things in a sensible way is usually done via limits < 1265402580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of some sort) < 1265402622 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-213-241.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402643 0 :ehird_!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-luqigrvloptgijgd JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402649 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero days since last ehird sighting. < 1265402650 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it's harder to find literature on discrete topology -- I got the impression topologists don't consider it as interesting as the other kinds. Ditto infinite groups (finite groups are so much more exciting!) < 1265402658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hug tackles ehird
< 1265402658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hi ehird_. < 1265402679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're alive! < 1265402691 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it doesn't feel it. I can't believe my life at the moment. < 1265402694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ehird_, i'm just as excited about your arrival as the others < 1265402710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265402722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: discrete topology means every set is open, which essentially just means you have a set. < 1265402752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've disappeared this long before for similar reasons; maybe I was just especially awesome before disappearing. < 1265402769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space (to put it very simply), if you have all the subsets, there's really no need to even have them explicitly. < 1265402776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird_ sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265402783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the book would basically be about set theory. < 1265402805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite vs finite groups is a completely different matter < 1265402818 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone wants me to explain, I will, in /msg. I don't want it to be logged. < 1265402831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Gotcha. < 1265402843 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265402866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by which I mean "I see", in case there was any ambiguity) < 1265402882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there was < 1265402915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "gotcha" is easier to interpret as "i have no idea what you mean" < 1265402924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than "i see" which is more neutral < 1265402938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's the "Gotcha!" as in "Aha! Now you're trapped!" < 1265402951 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I didn't mean. < 1265403004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i guess < 1265403055 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space" just seems like something you might want to not try to understand. or maybe it's just me < 1265403064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1265403070 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even wrong < 1265403073 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's retry < 1265403093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology of a space is a *subset* of the powerset of the set objects in the space < 1265403140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly i couldn't handle such a long string of information < 1265403178 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have in my head some fuzzy notion of "discrete topology" that isn't the same as the definition by that name (which I did read and understand once, a long time ago now,) and I get them mixed up. It's coming back to me now, a bit. More obvious why it's not terribly interesting. < 1265403243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if http://codepad.org/UCmJrhSx is a good explanation to someone who's not in Computer Programming
< 1265403277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, people in CS throw around terms like "network topology", but from all that I tried to read in actual topology literature, it sounds like a minor abuse of the term "topology". Network topology is far more like graph theory, no? < 1265403306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology < 1265403375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toplology < 1265403382 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: looks fairly decent < 1265403449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: might be worth pointing out that statements can only go inside functions < 1265403774 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265403800 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265405012 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1265405114 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi coppro. < 1265405151 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's back! < 1265405159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He liveth! < 1265405182 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Methinks I should link you both to the log of #esoteric-priv so you know what the hell's up. < 1265405209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1265405218 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265405227 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's logged. < 1265405231 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not easily googleable. < 1265405238 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, I don't care. < 1265405275 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird why did you leave < 1265405280 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In true utilitarian form, I'm sorry for dragging you into this and probably making you sadder as a result. < 1265405286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is priv < 1265405288 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Click the link. It wasn't voluntary. < 1265405296 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric-priv as in private, I created it just to relay that. < 1265405301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265405312 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o is pretty much perfect. < 1265405330 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suspect myself of hallucinating all this if it weren't so fucking gritty. < 1265405334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you okay now? < 1265405346 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I'm still not free. < 1265405353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, that's perhaps the most retarded way of treating... Anything. < 1265405360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly Asperger's. < 1265405362 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with pikhq :( < 1265405397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck < 1265405404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird are you in UK < 1265405414 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265405422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the expected reaction from removing an autistic patient from something they're obsessed about ranges from passive-agressive fucking with the doctors or having a meltdown. Don't fuck with that shit.) < 1265405437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/to/ < 1265405457 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird so when will you be allowed to resume? < 1265405494 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resume what, exactly? Sorry if I'm not being so good at communication, I've had no meaningful form of it for god knows how long. < 1265405518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like not be detained by these people? < 1265405533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: When is the soonest that you can get the fuck out of Britain? :P < 1265405542 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I... /msg time, I don't want this to be logged. < 1265405557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: contact your media < 1265405599 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've been suggested that multiple times tonight. I'm seriously considering it now. < 1265405621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I've heard, the British media can be especially harsh < 1265405648 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no idea. < 1265405676 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" < 1265405745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_'s back! < 1265405760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: When the hell did that mess start, anyways? < 1265405760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265405779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thought we weren't going to talk about this in this channel.
< 1265405784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough* < 1265405786 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Its origins reach back a year... or two, I don't know... this whole unit thing (the place is a "unit") started, um, late last year. < 1265405786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION missed that
< 1265405792 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like say september or slightly earlier. < 1265405798 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I really can't care any more. < 1265405804 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they find the logs, so be it. < 1265405856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I'm seriously considering contacting someone myself about this :/ < 1265405873 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, please ask me first... < 1265405907 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265405926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're clearly smart enough to know what they're doing is bad for you < 1265405950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Britain's handling of mental health issues is just royally fucked up in general... < 1265405962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1265405997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard one too many horror stories from British friends. < 1265406012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... One to many? Try far too many. Anyways. < 1265406021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What really scares me is that even his parents can't stop them < 1265406034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Big Brother knows best! < 1265406047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cuddles the CoRaF
< 1265406108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pulls up the Convention on the Rights of the Child...
< 1265406126 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Child's rights, a better punchline I've not heard. < 1265406166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: It's law in all countries other than the US and Somalia. < 1265406191 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the modern world, in practice, children have basically no rights. < 1265406258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, that's not the case everywhere < 1265406260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to belittle the situation in any way -- I'm a bit surprised at how unsurprised I am at this. < 1265406297 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It surprised me only because I was the one it was happening to. < 1265406301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darned thing doesn't allow parents to veto the state. < 1265406305 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No belittling taken. < 1265406307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a freaking useless document. < 1265406339 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case anyone doesn't know (cpressey might not, for instance) I'm 14 < 1265406386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know if there's any legal recourse your parents can take? < 1265406421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides seeking asylum elsewhere) < 1265406451 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in the courts I suppose they could preemptively battle sectioning; the outcome of that would, I assume, be either me being sectioned or a confirmation that they would not be allowed to section me unless my situation changed significantly. < 1265406477 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The prospect of the outcome being me being sectioned (I already stopped attending once, a second rebellion and they would not trust me at all) makes me extremely wary of that option. < 1265406507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "sectioned" mean? < 1265406523 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Institutionalised. < 1265406551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265406560 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it that you're out now? < 1265406580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the weekends. I get weekends home. That was one of the things they threatened not to give me if I was sectioned. < 1265406583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Monday-Friday < 1265406585 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weekend < 1265406586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265406620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: If I were you, I'd be contacting the press and seeking asylum. < 1265406621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to stay there overnight ?? < 1265406716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes. < 1265406732 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not right < 1265406746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am very sorry for you being in this horrible situation < 1265406764 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you < 1265406797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is seriously awful :( < 1265406814 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't trust the media about anything, I am not sure if that would be to your advantage or not? < 1265406824 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1265406829 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly generate massive publicity. < 1265406839 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a wreck right now, I guess I've been bottling this up for weeks... < 1265406839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Publicity is likely to be in your favor < 1265406847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not for certain < 1265406854 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just hit me how insane this all is... < 1265406859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would take institutionalization over publicity...
< 1265406990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll go get some coke before someone notices i'm insane and removes that freedom -> < 1265407012 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least they are not shooting him up on insulin to make him gain weight... :-/ < 1265407021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I count myself glad that I'm in the US, where our mental health system almost does not exist. :P < 1265407025 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this should be anything but a last resort, but looking at the papers, I think you'd qualify for refugee status to Canada. < 1265407041 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada's nice, but yes, last resort. < 1265407050 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If moving I'd much rather do it the regular way if at all possible. < 1265407056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about elsewhere, because you don't qualify under the Convention < 1265407072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Just straight-up moving there is pretty easy for you, though. < 1265407078 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure lucky that you guys are clever. < 1265407082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, Commonwealth. < 1265407104 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Europe is the most likely place to move to < 1265407110 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dead easy to move around the EU < 1265407113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265407136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly looking at Canadian immigration law to satisfy my own curiosity < 1265407171 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for this guys you have no idea how much this means to me, fuck it i'm descending into cliche land < 1265407190 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry about that :P < 1265407205 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265407234 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing's for sure. It'd have taken a hell of a long eternity for anyone to guess this when I said I was only on sporadically because my life's fucked up < 1265407254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought your mom said no computer < 1265407254 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. It's better for you to come out, because now we can be worried about you if you disappear again < 1265407256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265407266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously) < 1265407278 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mother isn't stupid. :) < 1265407291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know, but that was my first thought < 1265407293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, I almost forgot! I'm gay. Joking :p < 1265407298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, the coek < 1265407301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265407309 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'd care < 1265407359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was our bet about just girls? < 1265407400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1265407434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated < 1265407435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if it was just about girls, then i'd totally be against you being homosexual < 1265407463 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Coke? Wanting to damage liver? :-) < 1265407479 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ehird_ < 1265407482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Which one's that? < 1265407484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by coke i mean the blackish drink, or did you mean that as well? < 1265407495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: liberty and security of person ("liberty" being the key bit) < 1265407513 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes. < 1265407519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damages liver? < 1265407526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ah, right. < 1265407531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have you been reading < 1265407556 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_5_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights < 1265407562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a violation of the Article 3 of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights. < 1265407587 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (as introduction). < 1265407602 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but the Universal Declaration does not have legal force in the UK < 1265407612 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the European Convention has direct legal force < 1265407621 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:03] ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated < 1265407625 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes. < 1265407634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"e. the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;" fits anyone < 1265407637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes it does. < 1265407647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq it does? < 1265407666 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I'd imagine though that they'd have to be told for what, though < 1265407668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Only Somalia and the US have *not* ratified it. < 1265407704 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean the Convention on the Rights of the Child? < 1265407720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Right, that was ratified. < 1265407731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Declaration is just that -- not enforced at all. < 1265407733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinko. :/ < 1265407733 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265407754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the UK Human Rights Act of 1998 directly puts the European Convention into force < 1265407762 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Its the sugar in the coke that does the damage... < 1265407804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: What kind of lies are you spreading about there being sugar in Coke??? That, my friend, is nothing but genuine high-fructose corn syrup! < 1265407833 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: marry me. < 1265407863 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sugar and HFCS are pretty much the same health-wise (i.e. nasty). < 1265407907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's what we Americans do to protect our precious bodily fluids instead of ratifying meaningless pfft declarations of pfft. Also, fluoride in tap water, and mercury in fillings. < 1265407955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Not really. < 1265407975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, I'm actually a Canadian. But if I stay here long enough I'll eventually turn into one of them... < 1265407976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: HFCS encourages greater consumption. < 1265407999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our obsession with corn syrup is part of *why* Americans eat so damned much. < 1265408004 0 :[newbie]!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408043 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sugar + Refined grains => Trouble. That has been seen over and over again. < 1265408047 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. HFCS is just more trouble than straight sugar. < 1265408087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'm wanting coke more and more by the minute, have to get some before watching more -> < 1265408119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: If you need to talk seriously about anything, I'm here, and I suspect that most of the rest of the channel will be too < 1265408129 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1265408130 0 :[newbie]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265408134 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this not serious? :-) < 1265408142 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is 100% serious :) < 1265408160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does the 100% serious dance
< 1265408161 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I will most likely need advice very soon... < 1265408172 0 :[newbie]!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Hmm. As a Commonwealth citizen, you are *nearly* a citizen of Canada already.... < 1265408179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here, but I probably can't be as helpful < 1265408197 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265408204 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if I moved to canada how easy would it be for the uk to retrieve me < 1265408218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, I'm willing to listen, not that I need help) < 1265408223 0 :[newbie]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265408226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Non-trivial. < 1265408246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get refugee status (and as I said, I believe you would qualify), very difficult < 1265408279 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure that escaping is in your best intrest? if you cooperate then it would presumably just be a finite amount of time wasted by this < 1265408293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get refugee status, there is but one way for the UK to retrieve you... < 1265408295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :War. < 1265408310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad UK loves going to war... < 1265408345 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without refugee status, though? < 1265408355 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm almost entirely sure. < 1265408367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Depends. < 1265408374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At what level of government are these actions being done? < 1265408407 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, the NHS. Nothing's actually being "forced" on me, they're just saying they will force me if I don't do it "voluntarily" through the Mental Health Act. < 1265408411 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is law. < 1265408421 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What chemical differences after breaking the alpha linkages there are between Sugar and HFCS than sightly higher amount of fructose (55% vs. 50%) in HFCS? < 1265408439 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comexbot < 1265408441 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would still be pretty difficult < 1265408449 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Careful. Ilari has studied the shit out of nutrition. < 1265408455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NHS can't do jack shit to a foreign resident. < 1265408469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Alas. I should shut up about things I've merely heard about. < 1265408523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: IIRC, they'd need to convince the higher-ups to try and get Canada to issue an extradition order, which probably wouldn't happen. If they managed to get an order, you could fight it in the legal system on the basis that your rights would be violated < 1265408551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: I think the Crown in Right of Canada could force you back to the UK. Short of that, though, not much. < 1265408561 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about another EU country? < 1265408567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the EU < 1265408580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think that falls under the Prerogative < 1265408599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Mmm. Right. < 1265408603 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would, in any case, still be subject to being fought in the Courts. The Charter is a powerful piece of law. < 1265408625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quite possibly the strongest piece of human rights law in the world) < 1265408635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: They'd have to find you. < 1265408641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then sue the country you're in at the time. < 1265408656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, you could go a few miles to the next country. :P < 1265408682 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HFCS is infamous, yes. But it might not be (much) worse than sugar. < 1265408687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect they'd just ignore you if you left < 1265408689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there downsides to refugee status? < 1265408704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's non-trivial to get. < 1265408712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially compared to just moving. < 1265408728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly compared to moving in the EU... < 1265408737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, moving in the EU is a breeze comparatively < 1265408743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a matter of just leaving...) < 1265408755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest trick about refugee status is that you must have left your country already < 1265408823 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't studied "the shit out of nutrion" there are lots of people who know much more. But compared to most ordinary people... < 1265408827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265408897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that's roughly where I am with programming knowledge. #esoteric is people who know much more. "ordinary people" is all the students in the programming track.. < 1265408924 0 :_MigoMipo_!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the whole, #esoteric probably contains at least one person who knows more than most ordinary people for nearly any subject < 1265408931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they don't, they know someone who does < 1265408932 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265408941 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265408968 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In the cyberfuture, #esoteric will be known as the international hub for the intelligentsia. < 1265408994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has the Magic: the Gathering department covered
< 1265408997 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265409000 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upon those who enter we look at, not with scorn perhaps but with an intense neutrality; and those who ask a question are careful, lest we decide to creatively misinterpret it. < 1265409013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409014 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are also, relatedly, known as the international hub of slackers who've never done anything worthwhile anyway. < 1265409024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265409031 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to judge a Pro Tour in two weeks!
< 1265409065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, you're a judge? Niceness. < 1265409079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! < 1265409081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is merely a guy who knows the rules very well
< 1265409082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, considering everything that's happening, I don't know if you really care, but Fine Structure is complete < 1265409084 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265409087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: got your RA? < 1265409091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which helps when friends do things very, very weird. < 1265409099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... No. < 1265409105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should try for it < 1265409113 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: My life is complete once more ;P < 1265409120 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it comes to programming, it seems that some people are just better as programmers (and it isn't about experience). < 1265409123 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1265409141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(among other things, we have countered a spell by Sharazad, and then using a Ring of Maruf in the subgame to fetch it off the stack.) < 1265409167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409174 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it you're mostly old-schoolers then? < 1265409191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just very casual. < 1265409200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means we end up seeing a lot of *everything* going. < 1265409213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265409219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play EDH! < 1265409286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got my Reaper King EDH deck right here. < 1265409293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will be EDH side events at the PT, too bad I don't get to play :( < 1265409475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: So, it seems that in Canada, if you're a refugee you can only be removed from Canada via extradition, if the reason for being a refugee no longer exists, you voluntarily move elsewhere, or you voluntarily become a citizen. < 1265409496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you may apply outside of Canada. < 1265409521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/I-2.5/page-4.html#anchorbo-ga:l_2-gb:l_1 < 1265409557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered <<< you're not the only one < 1265409569 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wouldn't peg you as a magic kind of guy < 1265409574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he should bring in a friend who's a magic person
< 1265409586 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway guys, um, #esoteric-priv plz, would like to go off the record for some things < 1265409600 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265409696 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: actually i've played a considerable amount of it, although i suck at it. but i didn't really mean myself < 1265409747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just meant for this channel < 1265409761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah me too, pikhq, zzo, etc < 1265409776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: #mtg on EFNet < 1265409831 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265409979 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265410090 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265410126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speak of the debbil < 1265410137 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY < 1265410143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean SPEEK of the debbil < 1265410169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: soon first liter down < 1265410892 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265410990 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I already posted this, but < 1265410991 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0 < 1265411011 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing complete ascii game, haha < 1265411022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REDGREEN < 1265411024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did, but it's still entertaining. < 1265411030 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265411032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rubicon :) < 1265411039 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Congratulations, you just doubled the lightheartedness of this channel with that one link. :P < 1265411044 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the ontopicness...) < 1265411057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone's tried to put together a list of Turing-complete (or nearly so) computer games. < 1265411061 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the lightheartedness was 0 < 1265411064 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if* < 1265411076 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265411144 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Who knows. < 1265411148 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was something like 1/xkcd. < 1265411163 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265411163 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In case you haven't seen the log, we've been discussing the glorious matter of how fucked up my life is.) < 1265411595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: turing complete computer games? < 1265411638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GoL! < 1265411651 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a game? < 1265411651 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265411655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1265411658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAME of life < 1265411661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OBVIOUSLY < 1265411678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay i thought you were referring to a possibly existing computer version of the board game < 1265411685 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I know one time I was on here, long ago, people were discussing whether Transportation Tycoon is TC < 1265411692 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so uh are you remotely interested in how fucked up my life is? < 1265411693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that's an even better joke < 1265411694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is turing ocmplete < 1265411705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: always! < 1265411708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf claims to have a proof that Rubicon is TC. < 1265411718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wp says chess's extensions to an infinite grid are exponential time, but not tc < 1265411727 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: true! < 1265411728 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa. < 1265411737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've also seen Minesweeper called TC, but I'm suspicious < 1265411739 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: And I'm not joking, or doing some emo shit when I say fucked up. < 1265411762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponential time to do something, i have no idea how exactly these extensions work, probably pretty much anything gives the same results < 1265411771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously AsciiPortal and Robozzle < 1265411800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no but it was proven NP-complete < 1265411803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty simple really < 1265411810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something called Winter something or something that was like a video game version of CRobots or something < 1265411820 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AsciiPortal is TC? < 1265411828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: exponential time in the size could still mean TC for _infinite_ size < 1265411846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not sure if it's proven, but suspected at least < 1265411848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that wp really means unbounded, not infinite < 1265411850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, i guess... < 1265411868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or then it means some sort of extensions to "size n" < 1265411870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea < 1265411875 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build nand gates into asciiportal levels < 1265411882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wait, so what < 1265411891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're being forced to go to some place? < 1265411892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you supposed to "execute" chess? Nondeterministically make every possible move? < 1265411896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? how did this come about? < 1265411957 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I think I answered that in the channel too. let me try and find the log < 1265411969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs ehird_ :(
< 1265411974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've often wanted to make a game based on a cross between Befunge and Paradroid, too. That could be TC, it just... doesn't exist. < 1265411975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think you're normal. and pretty cool. < 1265411978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a bit girly. ;P < 1265412030 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: anyway it came about for complicated reasons... < 1265412034 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really explain < 1265412040 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can chess be turing complete? I think of [[InfChessPro]] but I don't know if you can assume such things < 1265412050 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the same question, how to "execute" chess? < 1265412054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RoboZZle is TC < 1265412071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carnage Heart, that's it, not Winter anything < 1265412098 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I can believe that, it has stacks and also sometimes command for change color of a square, too. < 1265412115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Langton's Ant was implemented in it < 1265412120 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means it's TC, I think? < 1265412125 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: #esoteric-priv if you want to discuss it... < 1265412151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry if I sound snoopy, but I just want to listen < 1265412167 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's okay. Just don't tell anyone else... < 1265412178 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem < 1265412186 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's public enough to anyone in here given the pastie link. < 1265412355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please show me how Langton's Ant is implemented in it? < 1265412370 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you serious? < 1265412374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I think it's pretty trivial < 1265412378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pretty obvious way to ask whether a game like chess is TC is "what is the result (white/black wins, tie) from a given position with perfect play by both players?" < 1265412382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has got a paint command < 1265412382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence "are you serious" < 1265412387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just do the obvious thing < 1265412427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you need to encode your computation into the initial position. < 1265412427 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, basically there are commands that exactly correspond to the rules of the ant. < 1265412435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't think you can encode arbitrary diophantine equations in chess
< 1265412446 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that's equivalent to what I said? Nondeterministically make every possible move. < 1265412449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Chess halts given perfect play. < 1265412455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 did that actually help at all? < 1265412455 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you "execute" chess? < 1265412463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, even without perfect play, it must halt. < 1265412478 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq what if you have infinite peices < 1265412506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: we are naturally assuming an infinite extension here < 1265412507 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how come < 1265412511 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :move forwards and backwards forever < 1265412513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd sell a finite amount on eBay at regular intervals < 1265412514 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 move rule < 1265412516 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh there's probably some dumb-ass limit rule < 1265412519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: 50 move rule. < 1265412519 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chess will always halt if you use 50 move rule < 1265412519 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ding < 1265412530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have infinite pieces and infinite space, though, you're fine < 1265412534 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265412537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the 50 moves reset every time a pawn moves < 1265412543 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a pawn could keep moving forever < 1265412544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, given perfect play, such an instance will never happen. < 1265412558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threefold repetition wouldn't happen in perfect play < 1265412567 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, let's extend to an infinite chessboard -- but don't drop the 50 move rule! :) < 1265412574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265412586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's also include every variant piece! < 1265412622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm pretty sure an infinite chessboard would make it easy to guarantee checkmate. < 1265412642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without the 50 rule, the game only has a finite amount of positions, and therefore doesn't allow any computation. < 1265412674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since perfect play aims for checkmate... < 1265412694 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265412696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is true of course, there is only a finite amount of positions, which is what I was thinking of at first < 1265412736 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible some variants might be different, though < 1265412820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need an unbounded sized board just to say you can handle "input" of arbitrary sizes. < 1265412846 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1265412876 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265412896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need an unbounded board just to have computation in the mathematical sense. < 1265412927 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265412941 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you would, but there are variants with unbounded boards. < 1265412947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the system only allows for a finite amount of initial positions, it is algorithmically trivial to solve absolutely any question about it. < 1265412983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (board looks like this) { ... } else if (board looks like that) { ... } etc < 1265413079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I catch your meaning, but I wonder if I can't come up with a counterexample that exploits your choice of words... < 1265413095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Before I go, I'd like to run an idea by you; would you be interested in a program that would provide for a tiled display of ASCII source? < 1265413152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: impossible! < 1265413187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, hi! < 1265413198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, what kept you away before? < 1265413201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome back < 1265413215 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Say I have a 2-symbol UTM, and I say that you can feed it any of the first 600 billion billion prime numbers to it, in binary. Then I ask you to tell me which of those cause the UTM to halt, and which cause it to loop forever. < 1265413222 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265413249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system has a finite amount of initial positions... < 1265413264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but that *is* algorithmically trivial < 1265413288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each of those numbers, it either stops or not < 1265413298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a finite amount of them. < 1265413307 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265413333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be trivial to represent the algorithm, yes, but not to discover the correct one. I guess you meant the former. < 1265413365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hrrm < 1265413399 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't see a Scroll Lock button on this keyboard
< 1265413412 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just going by the rigorous definition of "algorithmically trivial" < 1265413419 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-nhbizvsprfjpdcgc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265413429 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1265413520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wv! < 1265413521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb* < 1265413527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265413543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: and an interesting definition of "solve" :) < 1265413574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly not "answer correctly" < 1265413575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it not a solution if you can write a O(1) algo for it? ;) < 1265413654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algo is clearly O(1) (hidden constant 600 billion billion) < 1265413685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oklopol: what are you trying to solve? < 1265413689 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://chessvariants.org/shape.dir/infiniteboard.html < 1265413707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing really < 1265413740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've solved the P=?NP problem, then. It is either yes or no. < 1265413741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on what the meaning of "trying" is < 1265413770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the P?=NP problem is algorithmically trivial, yes < 1265413791 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus it is solved. < 1265413792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the first thing you hear in a course about computability < 1265413802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay i see what you mean < 1265413837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265413846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I assume not for any useful values of solved < 1265413859 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also read about chess variants where the number of rows is 2 times omega and that the number of columns is very infinite < 1265413869 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's maybe a linguistic issue about "solve" versus "has a solution"? < 1265413879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i don't think i've said anything incorrect < 1265413904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmically trivial to solve != possible to solve < 1265413919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, you have recently returned? < 1265413928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265413941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, someone else (coppero?) linked it above < 1265413944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read it < 1265413944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1265413948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, poor you < 1265413965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor me. < 1265413965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also: emigrate to somewhere saner < 1265413975 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard of ideas for chess variants where white pieces go forward in time, and black pieces go backward in time. Maybe we can even make a esolang with similar ideas? < 1265413976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My plan. < 1265413977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: OK, maybe. < 1265413977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics!? :o < 1265413980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden or Norway, most likely. < 1265413993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, our plan; my parents' too. < 1265413997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Sweden is shit nowdays. Norway is expensive to live in < 1265414005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Sweden isn't as bad as UK < 1265414007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1265414012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's Sweden shit? You may have an incredibly skewed view; you guys voted for the pirate party < 1265414015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just a matter of definitions, i love nothing more than to use a completely counterintuitive definition as counterintuitively as possible. < 1265414022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, FRA, IPRED < 1265414026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mention two things < 1265414031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay i love many things < 1265414047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the whole world is going that way < 1265414053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fra, okay, sure, that's bad < 1265414064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sweden doesn't have internet censorship right? finland does < 1265414067 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nighty < 1265414072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway is expensive sure but surely not that much more expensive than sweden < 1265414076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three counrties are really similar right? < 1265414080 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265414101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc there is/was some sort of non-enforced recommendation of child porn sites that isp could blacklist < 1265414103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1265414106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vague memory < 1265414126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also what about Bolivia? It might be saner < 1265414157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265414170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is what AnMaster would call a joke. < 1265414177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265414196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1265414198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, there was. < 1265414210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do note that that's one of the things the Piratbyran opposed. < 1265414230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes, but this all goes at EU level nowdays < 1265414239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the other political parties adopted as part of their platform in response. < 1265414239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scandinavia is one big happy family really < 1265414242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is basically no choice at any lower level for such things < 1265414258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Things inside of Sweden are at EU level? < 1265414261 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265414266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just EU laws? < 1265414268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't knock the EU if it's going to be saving my ass with free immigration. < 1265414278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265414314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: did you see my idea? < 1265414315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not just EU laws? <-- I referred to EU laws < 1265414316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1265414328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRA and IPRED are required laws by EU < 1265414329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: which? < 1265414329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: More like "near-citizenship". < 1265414329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah. < 1265414337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fra surely < 1265414342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in, the country has to implement something like it < 1265414346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the eu would condone warrantless wiretapping much less require it < 1265414346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pretty sure yes < 1265414350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something very close < 1265414364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden went way further though iirc < 1265414378 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm thinking of writing a program to tilize text; it would have nice features like the ability to run on updating text (e.g. a cellular automaton) and maybe even have an editor