< 1265414421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually felt a brain context switch there, to programming mode < 1265414430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i'm thick right now, tilize? < 1265414443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made the word up :) < 1265414450 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265414453 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make tiled? :P < 1265414455 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean to take a text "image" and render it with graphical images < 1265414469 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like produce a graphical version of a Befunge program or something < 1265414486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265414501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, like showing code flow paths in colours? < 1265414573 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i actually felt a brain cell switch there, to programming mode < 1265414577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all one of them? < 1265414591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm context switch < 1265414592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not cell switch < 1265414602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, just one cell is all my programming magic < 1265414603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's < 1265414604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum < 1265414605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how /I/ read (the first time) < 1265414606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1265414610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it.s....... quantum! < 1265414615 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Is Dungeons&Dragons turing complete? Actually, that isn't even a valid question < 1265414622 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lili < 1265414625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image < 1265414676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm obligated to inject some ehird into the discussion < 1265414689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the plan; we haven't had enough ehird lately < 1265414697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265414708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image <-- bitmap font rendering? < 1265414708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my quota < 1265414731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? so you love the ipad? < 1265414738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gotta say, I love it when unit tests fail when you substitute a class with a subclass of it which *overrides nothing in it* < 1265414748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it and want it to be my wife! < 1265414762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I gotta go. Later folks. < 1265414763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would be the basic principle, yeah < 1265414763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck ehird :) < 1265414767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Thank you. < 1265414770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hard to decide on it? < 1265414772 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265414784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Regular teenagers think they have issues with deciding on their sexuality. They should try being freedom-lovin' Apple fanboys. < 1265414798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wow what a great new invention! rendering text to a graphical image. Rather than sending it to a vt100 terminal unit < 1265414813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not new < 1265414814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, actually render in *software*? < 1265414821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I was being sarcastic < 1265414822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265414823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm i'm required to inject some display nerdery into this subtopic < 1265414826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, it has an IPS screen < 1265414832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's so thin and light and handheld. IPS! < 1265414834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265414838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to more depressing things < 1265414851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows of sexual troubles! < 1265414852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but it is too large to fit into a pocket < 1265414858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your mom < 1265414865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you and everyone else < 1265414870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join the club < 1265414875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :receive t-shirt, etc. < 1265414880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want: "is that an ipad in your pocket, or are you just extremely happy to see me?" < 1265414886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been a member for a long while now < 1265414887 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265414894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be, um, ridiculous < 1265414894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265414902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I'm in a special division though < 1265414918 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thta's a reason I wear cargo pants < 1265414934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait it costs $499? why don't i have one already < 1265414938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from it not being released and stuff < 1265414943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265414953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was expecting like, $799 < 1265415132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a misprint. < 1265415149 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it's just a big iPhone, I'd say it's not a misprint < 1265415194 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415269 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-243-76.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but what use case does ipad fill < 1265415337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "i am sitting on a bench and I want to read the new york times and check my email" case for one < 1265415359 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has better video hardware < 1265415382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how useful the ported office suite will be though < 1265415385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that keyboard < 1265415438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the plug-in one? < 1265415469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the onscreen one < 1265415471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1265415495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't expect that to be useful < 1265415498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console < 1265415505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fart sound maker < 1265415511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too big to thumb-type, and practically impossible to touch-type < 1265415559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, touch-typing could be practical < 1265415567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the error-correction < 1265415567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see it really being < 1265415573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can almost do it on an iphone, it's just too small < 1265415597 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because touch-typing sucks on a keyboard with no force feedback, and the angle is awkward because you have to type and view on the same surface < 1265415631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console <-- not full OS X apps?! < 1265415634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the crap < 1265415638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: >_< < 1265415642 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay! < 1265415648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I said it's a big iPhone. I wasn't kidding. < 1265415654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ... < 1265415657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and i said i wouldn't argue with you this weekend < 1265415658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stupid... < 1265415664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i lied < 1265415664 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has better video hardware < 1265415680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just shocked at this vendor lockin < 1265415691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay! <-- hm? < 1265415691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs the popcorn < 1265415694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're playing Vendor Lockin! < 1265415696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, like most laptops? < 1265415701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The game where AnMaster calls EVERYTHING vendor lockin! < 1265415703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, having full sized main area? < 1265415707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24/7/365! < 1265415708 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1265415709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't miss it! < 1265415725 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the whole thing's width is that of a standard IBM-style keyboard < 1265415732 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously full sized < 1265415754 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's just an enlarged version of a normal laptop keyboard < 1265415758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well my lenovo thinkpad has qwerty minus numeric keypad. the main (letter) area have keys the same size as a full sized pc keyboard < 1265415773 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265415777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some side keys are smaller, such as the F-keys < 1265415782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as big as a full keyboard < 1265415784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and alt/ctrl/win < 1265415796 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has no numpad and the arrows are squashed under shift and enter < 1265415798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the arrow keys are smaller and moved < 1265415805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, yes? < 1265415806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1265415813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a sane solution for a laptop < 1265415817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to adopt to < 1265415818 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's the same size as a normal IBM-style desktop keyboard < 1265415825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265415826 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it uses a laptop layout < 1265415832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, no mine isn't < 1265415835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is < 1265415838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the lack for a keypad on the side < 1265415838 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying < 1265415842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 15" laptop < 1265415849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you couldn't fit keypad there < 1265415854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with full sized main key < 1265415858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main keys* < 1265415868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, still it makes it easy to switch between laptop and desktop < 1265415870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If can fit an IBM desktop keyboard on top of this laptop's keyboard < 1265415872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same key sizes for most keys < 1265415882 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keys are enlarged, but it has a laptop layout < 1265415890 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1265415910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the numeric keypad the desktop keyboard is wider than my laptop < 1265415916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1265415927 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415932 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me they're the same < 1265415954 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of taking advantage of the space for a full kayboard layout, they squeezed in an engarged laptop layout. < 1265415956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, is that a 17" laptop? < 1265415972 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know measurements very well < 1265415989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, becuase having the same *key size* for the letter keys is useful < 1265415993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you switch a lot < 1265415997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it avoids a LOT of annoyance < 1265416002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to missed keys and such < 1265416007 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-all- of this laptop's kays are super sized < 1265416008 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's retarded < 1265416015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is Wareya? < 1265416017 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :super sized from an IBM keyboard's size < 1265416017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he new? < 1265416020 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively < 1265416024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joined? < 1265416030 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Wareya < 1265416034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you know ais -> scarf btw? < 1265416053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, is that permanent? I doubt it < 1265416062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, seems fairly permanent so far < 1265416067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, lasted several days < 1265416088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna move to a country where i have to wear ais523 around my neck < 1265416097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1265416106 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cold country? < 1265416112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches the joke woosh above AnMaster's head < 1265416123 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, or maybe it didn't < 1265416176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, indeed, it is controlled airspace there < 1265416266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, otherwise all the jokes would crash together < 1265416275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and form some sort of horrible mutant joke of all of them combined < 1265416279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you would then laugh at < 1265416283 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that one? < 1265416299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1265416419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyone want to come to norway with me and found an operating systems and programming languages research company < 1265416432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds cool < 1265416434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do that < 1265416468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke sothoth < 1265416470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do i :P < 1265416479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sothoth < 1265416482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is figuring out a way to be profitable! < 1265416484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freaking < 1265416489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to freaking read goddam < 1265416494 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :H P Lovecraft < 1265416501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good version with lots of pictures?? < 1265416506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, you know, big space with lots of computers networked together... you can come into work if you want, some sort of money will probably change hands at some point < 1265416507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1265416508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chill < 1265416607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265416685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night ↓ < 1265416695 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to sleep now! < 1265416702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're on top of sgeo < 1265416713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congratulations, you managed to turn #esoteric to the awkwardly homoerotic once more. < 1265416786 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolangers are the only ones in that strange channel right niow < 1265416846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which strange channel? < 1265416880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tullinge one < 1265416893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a channel for some area of Sweden. < 1265416914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best area there is < 1265416937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tulling" means fool in norwegian. just saying. < 1265416980 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tulling - turring, just saw that < 1265417056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"turring" means fool in norwegian with a ridiculous japanese accent. just saying. < 1265417066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luftputefartøyet mitt er fullt av ål < 1265417067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Min svävare är full med ål < 1265417075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilmatyynyalukseni on täynnä ankeriaita < 1265417078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norweigan, swedish, finnish < 1265417079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wins < 1265417138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swedish; it has three funny accents, the others just two < 1265417159 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265417180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swedish is not... rounded enough < 1265417183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too... tall < 1265417191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't imagine a pleasant gentleman speaking swedish < 1265417233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. like elves, really. < 1265417252 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day gentlemen, bork bork bork. < 1265417272 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which elves? < 1265417287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tall, arrogant obnoxious ones. < 1265417288 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High fantasy elves or childhood fantasy elves? < 1265417291 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265417298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i welcome you to the pleasantness of the current moment. < 1265417310 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting jumk food < 1265417314 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :junk* < 1265417317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had junk food < 1265417336 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm walking to a store half a mile a way for... < 1265417345 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single bag of doritos, and a 2-liter of whatever < 1265417349 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1265417353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1265417360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone hug me < 1265417362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1265417363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what doritos are, but they must be awesome < 1265417374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs ehird < 1265417381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1265417385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doritos are corn crisp things < 1265417392 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're overprocessed, brand-name corn chips with cheese and spicing < 1265417394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dip them in things < 1265417404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hugging guys is weird < 1265417409 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know too much about junk foor for a 130 lb teenager < 1265417423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs still < 1265417424 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food* < 1265417435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091101 < 1265417453 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll read it when I get back < 1265417469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14, 74 lbs representin' < 1265417475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am light. light as a feather < 1265417481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also really short. < 1265417493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact my interior is 99% air. < 1265417499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.99% helium < 1265417505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm like two and a half yous < 1265417512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not exactly < 1265417546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe you could escape the uk in balloon form < 1265417570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get a squeaky voice *and* escape < 1265417571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1265417594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like two horses with one giant hammer < 1265417598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better not fart while over the north sea, though < 1265417649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, second fart joke < 1265417684 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265417706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, there was another one? < 1265417730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started doing this thing today where i do the french r thingie without voicing < 1265417739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes breathing more fun < 1265417740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265417752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you were like "...oh dear did i make fart joke" < 1265417758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265417767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's essentially the german ch, isn't it < 1265417795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's supposed to roll that much < 1265417804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acch so < 1265417816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it rolls less audibly < 1265417820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i basically snore < 1265417828 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265417837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a helicopter < 1265417855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone knows it's very bad for helicopters to snore < 1265418114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418203 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418326 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, SimonRC. < 1265418517 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418569 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1265418688 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty funny < 1265418834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just found that "old" comic... i've been reading other comics on foglio's site for ages without realizing "What's new" _wasn't_ a link to the news section < 1265418851 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418857 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My experience on the internet is like blurry tunnelvision < 1265418863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i assume, since i hadn't noticed it before < 1265418870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know this guy < 1265418885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the newer comic Girl Genius has won a good number of awards < 1265419092 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it funny how it just loosely compared good/evil to roder and chaos < 1265419099 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091115 < 1265419112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, entropy is the greatest evil in the universe. < 1265419152 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion, order/chaos and good/evil are utterly seperate scales < 1265419184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh but isn't what that comic _says_ < 1265419211 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like it's listing new names for the same things, to me. < 1265419221 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe because of my dialect, eh < 1265419239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in d&d good/evil and law/chaos are the two fundamental axes < 1265419256 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265419396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i would say it's because we're all culturally impressed with associating good with light and law < 1265419414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if we may not always agree consciously < 1265419431 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a really fundamental level, I guess you're right < 1265419456 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I do feel like that good and light are the same thing anyway, so < 1265419462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, s/law/order/, or both < 1265419466 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265419494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the bat people are likely to disagree vehemently ;D < 1265419502 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265419955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really see any connection between good and light < 1265419988 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you have been educated evil? < 1265420001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do not understand the four simultaneous days? < 1265420010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265420026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like being in the dark, dunno why < 1265420032 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played plenty of jrpgs < 1265420042 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's where good=light and evil=darkness came from < 1265420046 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1265420251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265420590 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265420930 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265421184 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-idslepfdwijqdlse JOIN :#esoteric < 1265421663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night everybody, may i find dreams in my sleep. < 1265421663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1265421687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep, perchance to quark. < 1265421754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To sleep in Springfield, perchance to dream of being someplace else" < 1265421782 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees no relevent hits on Google, and points to some Simpsons book < 1265421904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freaking snowstorm. < 1265422068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265422305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265422402 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone pinged me >7h ago < 1265422439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, might have been me < 1265422448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned the language you were making < 1265422457 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265422495 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sweet, what were you saying? < 1265422506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was asking what happened with it, I think < 1265422510 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should all be in the logs < 1265422518 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, logs, bah < 1265422568 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's being developed, and I have an experimental implementation that should be reworked slightly to make it TC < 1265422576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: should i ensadden olsner too, or am i not that evil < 1265422582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265422591 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I may still decide to rebuild the middle-part of it < 1265422624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *shrug* it's your life, your decision < 1265422625 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh, ensadden me as early as possible so that I may not be worsely ensaddened in further future < 1265422637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*life story < 1265422664 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird about to die or something? < 1265422683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, no. < 1265422702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know at least one thing and it's that I'm not that bad off. < 1265422735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was about to die, I couldn't be talking lightly about ensaddening people on IRC. I'm utterly terrified of death. < 1265422738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265422753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For perspective, since I'm not sure if you know or not, I'm 14.) < 1265423010 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah, knew you're young... your situation sounds weird and harsh, but it's how I've always suspected "mental care" works pretty much everywhere < 1265423028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's definitely better in some places. < 1265423028 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, it's pretty much impossible to differentiate sane persons and insane persons claiming to be sane < 1265423038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thud. < 1265423044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or vice versa. < 1265423075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I would be less ... whatever emotion I am about this whole situation if they were making steps to treat what they brand me with, instead of a bullshit "malnutrition" < 1265423079 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :claiming to be insane? that's a sign of sanity if there ever was one :P < 1265423081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're not < 1265423400 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think these systems are (with good intentions) built to prevent either you or your parents from bailing you out < 1265423501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But I cannot forgive the people involved. < 1265423511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still did these things unthinkingly. < 1265423639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're claiming "malnutrition", they can't find a way to make sure you eat without detaining you in a place? < 1265423716 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265423740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not making sure I eat they're just giving me a drink that's woefully inappropriate; 2 x 1390 kcal + whatever else I eat in the day = one over-caloried puppy, and it's designed for people with disease-related malnutrition who *cannot* get the required amount of energy from food. And I'm not malnutritioned, I eat alright, maybe a bit less than usual. I'm just very thin, just as my father was. < 1265423751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs in the family, we're both perfectly healthy, no story there. < 1265423767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, you know, if the junk science of BMI says I'm overweight, well howdy-doody, to hell with the facts < 1265423783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that I could use that drink < 1265423807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though technically I can get the required amount of energy from food, I tend not to < 1265423813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265423850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tends not to eat properly < 1265423863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it would make sense for me to be in your position, tbh < 1265423902 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose detaining and force-feeding is what they will ultimately resort to to make you eat, after trying various other things, if they still think you're malnutritioned < 1265424325 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265424374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, believe me it wouldn't < 1265424378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody would be helped by my position < 1265424389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw nutrition science is bullshit, ask Ilari if you have a lot of time :p < 1265424396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265424405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: there's an anorexic girl there, 13, celebrity-obsessed, refuses to eat or drink. they just have her on a feeding tube. < 1265424416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my physical body, if not my mind, might be helped < 1265424420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously don't eat enough < 1265424425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't seem to especially care about actually fixing things, just temporary "fixes" < 1265424436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: maybe you just eat the wrong things. But seriously, nutrition science is crap. < 1265424831 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265425180 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265425889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night all < 1265425963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265428517 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265429208 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265430327 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265430511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet? Work? < 1265430511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please? < 1265430795 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, I started a debate: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55981 < 1265430914 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes the taste of pina colada on his lips < 1265430927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, I've got Internet. < 1265430943 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Suppose I have a ball on a hill. The ball is tolling directly up toward the top of the hill, such that its total energy is equal to what it would be if it were at rest at the top of the hill. So, it has enough energy to get to the top, but does it actually do so in a finite amount of time?" < 1265431000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No. It approaches the top asymptotically. < 1265431062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one side of the debate < 1265431184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm pretty sure it depends upon the geometry of the hill... < 1265431225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God dammit xkcd forums. < 1265431244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to be making Conkeror ignore all input on that window. < 1265431260 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265431265 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the infinitists are right. < 1265431283 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if chapstick had some kind of toxin that was only dangerous if a lot of chapstick was needlessly used, I'd be dead now < 1265431341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm pretty sure there's a limit in there, so yeah... < 1265431404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate chapstick. < 1265431413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265431458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves it < 1265431461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves the taste < 1265431483 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265431488 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265432117 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265432443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265433040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265433106 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265434024 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265435501 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265437924 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265438924 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265439099 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265439099 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265441540 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-243-76.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265441617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something < 1265443199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265443200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265446482 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265447061 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265447137 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265448656 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265448757 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265449046 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-41.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265450264 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265450990 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-29-91-78.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451329 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265451790 0 :Bullseye!~aayushrul@114.143.81.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451818 0 :Bullseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is running I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n 3.1.1 (June '09) with Advanced File Serving features by cRYOa on mIRC v6.35 32bit obtained from #Invision on irc.irchighway.net and http://www.i-n-v-i-s-i-o-n.com < 1265451836 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451854 0 :Bullseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265452668 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh. super. < 1265452889 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265452924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if there is a finite distance along the flat to the edge from the balls initial starting place, then i think you are right, an infinitely small push would take an infinite amount of time to even reach the edge, so the exact nature of the slope and the starting position may make a difference here" god these guys are retarded < 1265452956 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is a slightly old conversation i'm reading, i notice < 1265456077 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265457169 0 :verangirl!~verangirl@159.29.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es JOIN :#esoteric < 1265457192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do I feel like writing my own irc client suddenly < 1265457282 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265457433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265457530 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you identi.ca user? < 1265457553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what that site is < 1265457595 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the free as in freedom twitter < 1265457636 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look: http://identi.ca/group/conspiracy < 1265457650 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265457665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verangirl, mhm, you know this channel is about esoteric programming languages right? Not about esoterica. < 1265457680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes people mistake this channel for the other thing < 1265457749 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, ok < 1265457822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric programming languages being intentionally unusual, weird or silly languages. Often (but not always) designed to be hard to program in. < 1265457983 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265458023 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than see you < 1265458024 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265458741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bwuh? Why did Chrome spontaneously decide to reload a bunch of tabs? < 1265458751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this channel isn't about esoterica? Crud. See you < 1265458754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265458762 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265458841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies < 1265460664 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265461323 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265461659 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-yowkfawmguzfrclh JOIN :#esoteric < 1265461661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:20:41 i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies < 1265461662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##php < 1265461672 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarity < 1265461677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oblivious to how things work, merely trading magic incantations that appear, on the surface, to do what they desire < 1265461722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 23:33:37 ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something < 1265462140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265462579 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-41.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265463431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My own vote is clear: yes to both. Equality is reflexive (every value is equal to itself, at any longitude and temperature, no excuses and no exceptions); and the purpose of assignment is to make the value of the target equal to the value of the source. Such properties are some of the last ramparts of civilization. If they go away, what else is left?" --Bertrant Meyer < 1265463453 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265463752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy. < 1265463762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1265463819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: agda question - it's tc but total, right? how does it handle that; that partiality monad? < 1265463868 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is total < 1265463881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not tc, then? < 1265463912 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can express every partial function N -> N using a data type < 1265463922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, interesting, but what is the context? < 1265463924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could build a model of lambda calculus using a partiality monad < 1265463930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the language i spent a night babbling about - which has, as these things tend to, mutated wildly since - i'm trying to make it total, but to have partiality very ... < 1265463931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thingy < 1265463936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1265463937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of that quote above) < 1265463945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://bertrandmeyer.com/2010/02/06/reflexivity-and-other-pillars-of-civilization/ < 1265463951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bertrand meyer = creator of Eiffel) < 1265463958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i said bertrant before < 1265463959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Bertrand < 1265464025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function space A -> B (or forall a : A, B, or whatever) cannot express every recursive function < 1265464045 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because -> is total functions (because you want to compute with them in types) < 1265464051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265464053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265464063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but e.g. A -> Computation B can be a model of lambda calculus < 1265464064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expressing it with a data type, how do you mean? I'm curious if it's what I'm thinking of or not < 1265464077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so a partiality monad < 1265464095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can define all the primitive recursive stuff and Mu, just as a syntax first < 1265464107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can give a big step semantics, < 1265464115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right, but what's the actual data type; i mean, it's a total language so is there sort of a backdoor where you can introduce partiality? < 1265464144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you really are talking about the class of recursive functions now, every proof you write with respect to the semantics of that type is a valid statement about them < 1265464176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your Computation there is a partiality monad, isn't it? < 1265464193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably to make meaningful use of them, given a haskell-style main program solution, you need main :: Partial (IO ()) < 1265464194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's just one way < 1265464208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you'd be in total-land, and couldn't invoke the forbidden fruit of the partial lands < 1265464360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lambda syntax is currently λα.β because otherwise function types would get confusing :) (λα. α → ∅) vs (λα → α → ∅) < 1265464374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fuck yeah, unicode; i'm using unicode up the wazoo) < 1265464395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it is rather awkward as I have *not* yet written an editor mode or editor which lets you type \a. a -> () to get that < 1265464398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah \x -> m is stupid < 1265464431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, wait < 1265464435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ is Void < 1265464436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not () < 1265464495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: come up with a nice unicode name for my () set :P < 1265464507 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't worry about writing partial programs < 1265464537 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that is just me .. < 1265464543 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe not such a valuable statement < 1265464547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, considering I am planning to use this language as an entire OS, I'm sure I will run into partiality at some point - and the total FP paper certainly did show that some operations are damn awkward with total FP. < 1265464585 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want to write an OS with it? < 1265464592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. I love the proof system duality and the mathematical soundness of having no ⊥, < 1265464600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure totality is practical. < 1265464612 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurrump < 1265464628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: My goal in computing is to completely revolutionise it. My two separate interests are operating systems and programming languages. < 1265464639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only natural that my awesome programming language would be my awesome operating system. < 1265464653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note "be", not "be used to write". < 1265464666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright but you're not going to do a full correctness proof of the OS? < 1265464671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My OS design involves the programming language being central; a living environment. < 1265464673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think Smalltalk. < 1265464685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, well. :P < 1265464687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you talked to luqui about thsi < 1265464700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luqui's blog was a big inspiration < 1265464706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i haven't caught him on irc yet < 1265464733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh I could use ∈ instead of ∷ < 1265464735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ugly though < 1265464752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about \in is that it's asymmetric < 1265464774 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can get two symbols (one for the flipped relation) < 1265464792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether his empty type/set should be called ∅ or ⊥ < 1265464804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥ would be the type theory way; ∅ the set theory way... < 1265464824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ seems less confusing; ⊥ is too associated with non-termination and undefinedness in programming < 1265464842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell* :P < 1265464842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, I'd like to be able to use ∅ to denote empty containers in value-land, and that would be doubly confusing < 1265464851 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody else has a clue what it is < 1265464868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever; apart from agda guys, haskellers are the most mathematically civilised programmers :) < 1265464875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and coq etc) < 1265464948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joys of Unicode: /=? Why wouldn't you just write ≢? < 1265465022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about a language that could compile into almost every high level language < 1265465032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see my memo to you < 1265465036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≢ because you have to use ≡ for equality < 1265465041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because = is definition < 1265465047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: underlambda :P < 1265465082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: relink the paste in /msg; it may not be so bad < 1265465092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have after all linked to the pastie which tells everything in this channel < 1265465121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: can you think of any way to use ≠ for equality and not be inconsistent since = is definition? maybe a better symbol for definition? :P < 1265465131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::= for definition < 1265465141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := for the equality type! < 1265465148 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yuo can say x = y and MEAN IT < 1265465166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::= isn't unicode bitchnizzle < 1265465173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a unicode one :P < 1265465181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIND IT PEASANT < 1265465212 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≝ < 1265465217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers that |α| instead of abs α may be taking the mathematical notation thing a *bit* too far < 1265465230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a| is a fucking abomination < 1265465233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: a more hideous symbol I've not seen! I wonder what font size I'm expected to use to make out "def" there. < 1265465236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah agreed < 1265465238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a|b|c| < 1265465239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retarded notation < 1265465246 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≔ < 1265465260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that reduction symbol that rconnor likes < 1265465271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm not keen on the unicode stuff because all the operators are too small (unnecessarily :/) < 1265465274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical notation defines too much syntax when functions would do :/ < 1265465282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah I'm taking care not to use any blots of ink < 1265465294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, _my_ OS will display it perfectly legibly ;) < 1265465298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265465307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20031202T032200Z.html < 1265465316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→β* < 1265465321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have our definition symbol. < 1265465348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||a||₂ for the euclidean norm. < 1265465361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I draw the line at superscript numbers for powers < 1265465379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, the stupid symbol is used for all norms < 1265465405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, so any fancy space-age editor, like my OS, will *display* it as superscripts. < 1265465417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the Unicode representation? < 1265465419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nooooooooooooooooooooooo way < 1265465461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually I think my OS will only have to consider code as text for interacting with the outside world. Internally, it's an AST or compiled code; in the UI, it's rendered with fancy things like superscripts. < 1265465465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/)/ < 1265465482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a maths teacher who uses sub- and superscript indices completely interchangeably, often changing them between consecutive lines. Also some sort of "middle-scripts" occasionally. < 1265465502 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow lol < 1265465520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the best symbol for the exponentation operator is < 1265465619 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265465677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ↑ due to knuth :) < 1265465687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/axd4m/what_is_the_mathematical_rule_that_says_if_abc/c0jw2vc < 1265465688 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1265465718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone who answers a question starting "What is the mathematical rule" with "common sense" is so idiotic I cannot comphrend it < 1265465744 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1=2 is common sense! < 1265465754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html < 1265465757 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^2+b^2=c^2 because duh!! < 1265465757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love metamath < 1265465767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's so 80s < 1265465775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso < 1265465784 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys I just had a great idea, lets put all our math in the computer! < 1265465794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says the agda fan < 1265465807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram fan < 1265465815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you like metamath? < 1265465824 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like it, it's just very funny < 1265465827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aight < 1265465831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i misinterpreted what you said < 1265465898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo α β = (α ≡ β) ∨ (α ≢ β) < 1265465937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊕ ∷ Bool → Bool → Bool < 1265465939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND JUST WHY NOT < 1265465954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ≡ is sometimes used for definition? < 1265465957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i could swap =/≡ < 1265465961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or definitional equality < 1265465966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh or ≐ is a nice unicodey thing for := < 1265465974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all ridiculous like ≝ < 1265465987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like y + x = x + y, but not definitionally < 1265465992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need induction to prove it < 1265466049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he's crazy enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy → Anotherone → Maybe Yetanotherone < 1265466077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesiree we have a mathematical programming language here, please ignore the endless handling of ÷'s return values behind the curtain < 1265466092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides yes < 1265466096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am crazy enough. < 1265466110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need nice syntax for doing things like this in expressions. < 1265466171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say f {x} (y z {r q {x}}) → (using haskell syntax) do x' <- x; x'' <- x; r_q_x' <- r q x''; return (f x' (y z r_q_x')) < 1265466183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given some surrounding brackets to denote that it's a special expression thingy ofc < 1265466189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could use the maybe monad < 1265466207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: So, do you think ≡ is a reasonable symbol for what-Haskell-calls (to avoid ambiguity) =? < 1265466209 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why you would want to?? < 1265466216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't < 1265466220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1265466228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, < 1265466238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, Maybe handling < 1265466254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 + {3 ÷ x} < 1265466260 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha ÷ < 1265466262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1265466266 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265466274 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265466283 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy..." < 1265466286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that as a + :( < 1265466292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265466302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ ÷ = ≢ ≝ < 1265466307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, {| 2 + {3 ÷ x} |} is nicer to write than fmap (2 +) (3 ÷ x) < 1265466337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a downside is that imperative weenies could do {| say {readLine} |} :P < 1265466349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess it's just a generalisation of >>= and =<< and <$> and blah blah blah < 1265466350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265466360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiom brackets < 1265466362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Hm is ÷ fraction, integer division, floating point division or something else? < 1265466368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i suspected idiom brackets were the same thing < 1265466374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1265466388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah all of them then < 1265466390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah,* < 1265466404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not all of "something else". You have to obey some properties, or the compiler will yell at you. < 1265466414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course < 1265466441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really "of cause"; almost all languages don't do such things. < 1265466448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define (/) to be pretty much whatever you want in Haskell. < 1265466451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"of cause"? < 1265466454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*course < 1265466458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265466462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but is the result of ÷ exact or not? < 1265466487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the definition doesn't it? < 1265466527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes indeed, which is what my first question about it tried to ascertain. < 1265466539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably require that {| α × {β ÷ α} ≡ β |}, so... < 1265466556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Using ≡ as equality, though that symbol is very much in flux.) < 1265466586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can not produce a "simple" floating point value when dividing two floating point values I think. < 1265466592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, I'm not 100% sure about that < 1265466645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd relax it to {| someEqualityThingProvidedByTheDefinition (α × {β ÷ α}) β |}, but that's as good as letting you define it to anything. < 1265466665 0 :lieuwe!~3efb65d9@gateway/web/freenode/x-pqwhpbcqylhlhfvx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265466668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> (3231.318478239 / 238914.12391) * 238914.12391 < 1265466668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3231.3184782389999 < 1265466682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how my λ is the same thing as ∀. < 1265466685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. < 1265466696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I might have a separate class for inexact operations. < 1265466718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :÷?, maybe. < 1265466721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram has quotient types < 1265466736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could quotient out by "someEqualityThingProvidedByTheDefinition" and still use {| α × {β ÷ α} ≡ β |} < 1265466765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc any floating point operation is potentially inexact. Well, almost any. x := y would be exact if both are the same type of floating point. < 1265466768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that allows inexact definitions but still doesn't let you define it to anything you want? How? < 1265466772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so haskal? < 1265466777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I know. < 1265466787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265466791 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1265466794 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in numerics < 1265466802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Floating-point operations don't obey the laws of arithmetic, though. :) < 1265466804 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get something like fl : R -> R defined < 1265466808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265466811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could use Real < 1265466818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and specify the inexact implementation as an "implementation detail" < 1265466819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you write x + y*z would compute to fl(x + fl(x*z)) < 1265466825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true. So what you want is basically a CASkell? < 1265466826 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where fl does the rounding etc < 1265466827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., the code is considered to operate on reals in all their exactness < 1265466833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CASkell! lol < 1265466833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1265466835 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1265466839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at runtime < 1265466841 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good name though < 1265466844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses floating-point < 1265466845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1265466847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265466847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah < 1265466853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smiled at the name. < 1265466939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and specify the inexact implementation as an "implementation detail" <-- "this implementation always round to zero. No, that isn't a typo for 'towards zero'." < 1265466945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it occurs to me that "e" is a rather inconvenient name to give e, given the commonality of single-letter variable names... < 1265466956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1265466964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's correct for sufficiently large values of zero < 1265466994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd call e "euler", but euler has done so many mathematical things that it would be hopelessly vague :P < 1265466997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? representing numbers as the length of a series of zeros? < 1265467017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if an idiot was working with the Euler–Mascheroni constant he'd be confused. < 1265467022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a joke. < 1265467056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a mathematical context e means exp(1) < 1265467065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a monad context + means mplus < 1265467065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, as someone in here said: it is perfectly in spirit with this channel to try to make a working thing of a joke. < 1265467072 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually I prefer (+) for mplus < 1265467081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: + for mplus would be interesting. < 1265467088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been ais/scarf < 1265467099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already sold on o (too lazy to unicode) = category composition < 1265467107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even generaler than o = fmap, i think < 1265467119 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265467128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap and o are quite different thuogh < 1265467134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think o is better < 1265467142 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap should just be map < 1265467142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265467146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c < 1265467148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--control.category < 1265467150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265467150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why is e a bad name for e? I can think of at least one way to end up with that as a reasonable letter < 1265467153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems good < 1265467154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that doesn't allow . = fmap < 1265467156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's good i think < 1265467160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you're right < 1265467209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the supereditor will probably display α ÷ β as < 1265467213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :α < 1265467213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1265467214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :β < 1265467215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265467242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although at the same time I don't think I want to abandon the entirety of linear syntax < 1265467244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has useful properties < 1265467251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not necessarily textual, but linera) < 1265467253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*linear < 1265467271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, consistency is Good, and also something mathematical notation sorely lacks < 1265467289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: any good ideas for the hole character in mixfix operators? < 1265467297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to use _, it should be allowed in variable names I think < 1265467298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixfix? boo!!! < 1265467302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically: (e^x)' = e^x, thus it is "its own derivative", and a lot of mathematicans were from Germany historically, thus that leads to "eigen" for "own/self", thus e) < 1265467309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14:33] and you write x + y*z would compute to fl(x + fl(x*z)) < 1265467311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that < 1265467313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why I hate mixfix is: < 1265467314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about that way to explain why e is a good name for e? < 1265467323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the same thing as what i was saying < 1265467333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but in programming "e" is not an uncommon variable name < 1265467340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so having "e" in global scope is problematic < 1265467342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm listening < 1265467344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true. < 1265467348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i love mixfix so it better be a good argument :P < 1265467354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you could use namespaces/module prefixes < 1265467361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have like math:e or such < 1265467371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and if you're writing mathematical code? < 1265467373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you were making a type system or soemthing, and you wanted to define a function t :: T, to express that t has type T < 1265467375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you envelop all of math. < 1265467385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, import it? like "from math import e" < 1265467385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you run into the same problem, although I guess mathematicians wouldn't name variables e because of that. < 1265467393 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type of t depends on T, so in mixfix you can't do it.. you have to write T ::' t < 1265467397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(psedo-python) < 1265467402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pseudo* < 1265467429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I just meant the general idea of being able to define an operation if_then_else_, not any specific definition of the semantics < 1265467432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixfix operators being typed is the problem really < 1265467447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you just make them notations, rather than well typed terms I think it's better < 1265467459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know they were terms in Agda or whatever < 1265467463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are I don't see why < 1265467481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welll when you compute it will print back the mixfix terms < 1265467493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than something horrid like Ap (Ap (Dollar ..) (Ap .. < 1265467498 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that we're so used to seeing. < 1265467503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's basically prettyprinting? < 1265467514 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are just notations then it's a bit harder to make the link, I guess < 1265467514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you may be used to seeing it but I observe agda from a strictly outside viewpoint! ha! < 1265467527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265467528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: seems ridiculous to add such craziness just for prettyprinting < 1265467533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a smarter pretty-printer! < 1265467541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not too smart! < 1265467551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you make sure it's Friendly! < 1265467555 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265467556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265467582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you know I have read so muh lesswrong < 1265467584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much* < 1265467587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prettyprinted my expression that (given infinite time) checked if the reimann hypothesis was true or false < 1265467595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it printed "the Boolean *£($&(*£$uq))(ii!£()!*£)(*NO CARRIER < 1265467601 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265467608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265467639 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-yowkfawmguzfrclh JOIN :#esoteric < 1265467642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phew, my connection dropped there. < 1265467652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, easy to explain < 1265467657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said "no carrier" ;P < 1265467669 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still trying to come up with some sort of high-level esolang... can't come up with anything implementable :-/ < 1265467673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly _something_ listened < 1265467689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lieuwe you came up with unimplementable stuff? :) < 1265467691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Was that a pun? A carrier carries something, if a carrier stops carrying something they drop it? < 1265467695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I love you. < 1265467701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have made an actually good pun. < 1265467704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations. < 1265467704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265467713 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not toataly unimplementable, just very hard... < 1265467740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it was a reference to modems mostly. Remembers those leds on them? I mean good old 28 kbit ones and such < 1265467743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the compiler for my language < 1265467753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yeah, in fact it's technically implementable!" < 1265467771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should hire a buncha phds to do it for me < 1265467775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So not a good pun then :( < 1265467815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i have this horrible feeling that the ML-style module system is going to interact terribly strangely with my type system < 1265467826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, My variant seems more relevant to any sort of connection over telephony. < 1265467833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you could just steal Coqs module system < 1265467842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea about modules though < 1265467845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i might, is it as good as ml's? :P < 1265467862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I think it's basically the same, except a bit extra for the types < 1265467873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and iirc you have iphone or adsl to choose from. < 1265467912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 3g stick :P < 1265467918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1265467927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a carrier there < 1265467954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you use that or the iphone then it is carrier in several meanings < 1265467987 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265467996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data [_] ∷ Set → Set where < 1265467998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ∅ ∷ λα. [α] < 1265468000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _:_ ∷ λα. α → [α] → [α] < 1265468009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but primarily see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NO_CARRIER < 1265468011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where _ is the operator placeholder thingy < 1265468023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, yeah, so in actuality those names are in the Container or Sequence or whatever thingy. < 1265468023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not epsilon? < 1265468031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also PUKE!!!!!! < 1265468036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, overloading ∅ to mean something other than the empty *set* is probably abhorrent. < 1265468038 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use : for type judgements and :: for cons :P < 1265468039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT I LIKE UNICODE. < 1265468046 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epsilon is unicode!! < 1265468049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't use :: for type judgements, I use ∷ < 1265468052 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't look it up < 1265468055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know what no carrior is < 1265468057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*carrier < 1265468060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i said it < 1265468060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, right < 1265468062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well ∷ sucks ;[ < 1265468076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't even know what it's supposed to be :) < 1265468084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway : for type judgements just seems too... lightweight < 1265468092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno why, it just seems like the meat is taken out from the expression < 1265468110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I shhould use ∈ for type judgements :P < 1265468163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ∈ is better than :: < 1265468169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ∷ whatever < 1265468170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks ugly to me :P < 1265468173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with :: < 1265468181 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it atkes TWICE as long to type < 1265468186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1265468187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe me it adds up < 1265468196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the single most common operator you type < 1265468201 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wtf's up with the greek letters:-p? < 1265468203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, = is < 1265468205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∈ and :: mean different things, no? < 1265468212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lieuwe: we're being pretentious functional programmers < 1265468213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1265468221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is-member-of-set = is-of-type < 1265468222 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: :P < 1265468230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: = is more common than :: < 1265468234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think e.g. let and where < 1265468238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where often you omit the types < 1265468246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but :: outside of a definition isn't very common < 1265468250 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but hm < 1265468251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so = is definitely more common than :: < 1265468253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm seems wrong to use the same symbol for them somehow < 1265468258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They are the same thing. < 1265468268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevertheless... < 1265468271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1265468273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying the same thing as "it seems wrong to use the same symbol for addition and addition". < 1265468299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there should be different symbols for integer and floating point addition < 1265468302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265468304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you have a point in that _∈_ in value-land will be container/sequence-membership, and it'd be nice to be able to use things like that in type-land < 1265468313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But those are different things. < 1265468323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't seem to understand: "Type" is just another word for "set". < 1265468323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265468338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on what set theory and/or type theory you use iirc? < 1265468346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types aren't really sets though < 1265468357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just call them that and use ∈ because we don't like set theory < 1265468370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ℕ not a set? < 1265468382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's an inductively defined set < 1265468387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a set < 1265468389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ℕ is the set of natural numbers yes < 1265468391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not made up of {}'s < 1265468399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it's a set. < 1265468483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but yeah, _∈_ in value-land will be member-of-sequencecontainerwhatever; and it would be nice to be able to use that in type-land, which we can't do if we use it for type judgement < 1265468497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloody haskell doesn't have to avoid naming conflicts between value- and type-land :P < 1265468521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1265468552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operators just break up the monotony of f (g x y) (h z (w p q)) < 1265468569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g x y + h z (p * q) < 1265468570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest we call using non-operator names for functions 9-to-5 naming < 1265468583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: *× < 1265468592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p × q < 1265468596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that x < 1265468597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or · < 1265468599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your choice < 1265468605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x × x < 1265468613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode needs italics-x as a character :P < 1265468635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the cross product of x and x? < 1265468651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc × and · are quite different < 1265468653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard of multiplication, AnMaster? < 1265468674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but isn't cross product and dot product different for vectors? < 1265468694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two different kinds of product < 1265468709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. < 1265468738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what fun category-theory concept × should be defined to < 1265468744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's gotta be something, there's always something. < 1265468765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even know what category theory does... < 1265468822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't do anything! It sits around looking awesome. < 1265468841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure that it's an odd instance of the curry-howard isomorphism though, in that they're the same definitions but used entirely differently < 1265468846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cosmic usefulness transfer < 1265468855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265468861 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry-howard-lambek < 1265468885 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a three way isomorphism between types (in programming languages), propositions (in logic) and objects of a Cartesian closed category. < 1265468917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot linguistics < 1265468935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1265468937 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1265468943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is isomorphic to logic, thus to programming < 1265468947 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho < 1265468948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1265468951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno ask augur < 1265468955 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is forgetting linguistics worse than forgetting poland? < 1265468956 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me!!! < 1265468961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they, well augur, also i think i've seen you, use basically lambda calculus for some syntax :P < 1265468968 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I take it you mean semantics < 1265468971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: i had to restrain myself not to say that < 1265468973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah semantics whatever < 1265468974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm no linguer < 1265468983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no don't do it. We won't get rid of the linguistics discussion for hours then! :( < 1265468997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh < 1265469006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, what's the one thing that can distract augur from linguistics < 1265469007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AH! < 1265469010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gay sex! < 1265469017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUICK EVERYONE, TO THE BUTT-BATALLIONS < 1265469020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1265469078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in category theory, you have objects, and "structure-preserving mappings" between them, then you have a very general way to define things like isomorphisms, the same definition works for groups and sets and so on, because you just talk about properties of functions that have to do with their composition. < 1265469094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that also works to kill the linguistics. < 1265469113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh i should have said "buttallions" < 1265469246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically isomorphisms can be just defined as mappings that can be inverted both ways, that is, "no info is lost", then when you look at the category of groups and morphisms, and the category of sets and functions, you'll see that you've defined a sensible isomorphism for both < 1265469262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called bijection for functions ofc < 1265469275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to pizza maybe < 1265469296 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice to have a formal theory about these informationy heuristics we use < 1265469394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did data Bijection a b = Bijection (a -> b) (b -> a) in haskell but i was sad < 1265469403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you couldn't, you know, show that it was actually... that < 1265469435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in awesome languages I could just include an (f (g x) = x) :P < 1265469536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1265469539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a Category, I wonder? < 1265469558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c < 1265469583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ((b->c),(c->b)) -> ((a->b),(b->a)) -> ((a->c),(c->a)) < 1265469602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1265469611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Category as in the haskell definition of it in base) < 1265469622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty slick. < 1265469645 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't see the point < 1265469650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's cool? < 1265469653 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a category of bijections, now what?? < 1265469660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you can compose bijections! < 1265469701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey wait < 1265469707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even need to require that they be functions < 1265469709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, I do < 1265469712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a way to apply them < 1265469715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was thinking I could just do categories < 1265469720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiiit < 1265469721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could < 1265469729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265469730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't < 1265469730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1265469843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Bijection ∷ Set → Set → Set where < 1265469845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Bijection ∷ λα. λβ. < 1265469847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {f ∷ α → β} → < 1265469849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {g ∷ β → α} → < 1265469851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {λx. f (g x) ≡ x} → < 1265469853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {λx. g (f x) ≡ x} → < 1265469854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Bijection α β < 1265469863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only problem there is that we need ≡ < 1265469871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having it depend on equality is silly imo < 1265469891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, f and g shouldn't be in {} < 1265469893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should be in (), I think < 1265469911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MissPiggy: right?) < 1265469937 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265469947 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are into category theory why don't you define it as a split epi < 1265469949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mono < 1265470011 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265470038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i don't understand category theory :) < 1265470051 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1265470057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to combine GADTs and the Foo { blah :: ..., } stuff < 1265470069 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GADT?? < 1265470085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :record syntax for GADT? < 1265470145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar :P < 1265470155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not record syntax necessarily < 1265470161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just automatic accessor-definers < 1265470168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you know what would be nice? < 1265470172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having juxtaposition be like < 1265470188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :juxtaposition :: (Juxtaposable a b c) => a -> b -> c < 1265470189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1265470195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Juxtaposable a b c | a b -> c < 1265470204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have Juxtaposable (a -> b) a b < 1265470215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, say you have an accessor < 1265470217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also works for writing < 1265470229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have like < 1265470242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify :: value -> accessor for that value -> new value of the property -> value < 1265470243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also < 1265470251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Juxtaposable (Accessor a b) a b < 1265470258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do "prop value" for access < 1265470262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way (you probably know this..) the dependent type stuff is more general than GADT < 1265470285 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm although is it more general than She style GADT? < 1265470286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265470296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but gadts are nice syntax for most stuff, so. < 1265470385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll also have type-level functions basically < 1265470392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Foo bar baz quux = ... < 1265470403 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't use type to define them?? < 1265470412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just picking an arbitrary keyword :) < 1265470418 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay but why need any keyword < 1265470421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's the same thing as haskell's type synonyms < 1265470422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just more general < 1265470425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to < 1265470430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only different is that you are going into Set rather than Int or something < 1265470437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1265470441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you use it at compile-time < 1265470447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in the living environment of my OS it doesn't matter, but... < 1265470455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you are right. < 1265470536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# 9.7-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen Multi-Touch display with IPS technology # 1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi) < 1265470542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to Apple 4:3 is widescreen < 1265470709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, for P=NP, could it be that it is unprovable if it is the case or not? Has anyone tried to prove it unprovable? < 1265470729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=p%3Dnp+unprovable&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=p%3Dnp+unprovable&fp=33a9a577caa4e7cb < 1265470737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This article shows that "P-not-equal-to-NP" is unprovable in ZFC. Here is a review of this proof by the German logician Ralf Schindler. ... < 1265470744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if it's a crackpot < 1265470749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, #hl? that url is broken < 1265470760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everthing after that first # is an anchor < 1265470761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unfortunately, there is an error in the proof [...]." < 1265470764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: javascript < 1265470767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me, google < 1265470777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, usually I don't get # there in the urls.. < 1265470777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265470782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to avoid loading the surrounding stuff of the page, I bet < 1265470786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to speed up load times < 1265470812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction." < 1265470884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, After reading it twice: huh? < 1265470898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a joke; laugh. < 1265470906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1265470916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't understand it, you don't understand what p=np means :P < 1265470974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can defeat entropy and have a singularity it doesn't matter how long computations take; the universe will be filled with one gigantic computer on which all our minds will be uploaded. It will make us experience time in sync so that every computation is instant. < 1265470995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., if someone runs a computation that takes a gazillion years, everyone stops thinking, a gazillion years pass, then we resume thinking; to us, the computation happened immediately < 1265471005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, my brain was in math proof mode when reading it. I do see the joke now < 1265471007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1265471120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I meant was, that maybe P=NP is unprovable in the same sense as the cardinality of R. Or to take another example: the parallel postulate in Euclidean geometry. (Which is why it is an axiom) < 1265471243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a genius! < 1265471248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't we just define P=NP as an axiom? < 1265471253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, this changes everything :D < 1265471306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1265471391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't it (in theory) be proven that it is impossible to prove either P=NP or P!=NP ? < 1265471442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's true, maybe it can be proven. < 1265471452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be true that it is unprovable and yet not be provable that it is unprovable. < 1265471459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1265471461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could also be false and thus not provable, at least if ZFC is consistent. < 1265471485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe it could be proven that it is unprovable to prove it unprovable? < 1265471496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(argh the headache) < 1265471519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll prove your mom. < 1265471536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas I can't think of any snappy reply to that < 1265471600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your mom proved your face in bed last night, didn't she?" < 1265471609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was there. WATCHING" < 1265471625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why don't we just define P=NP as an axiom? -- because nobody knows if it's independent yet!! < 1265471655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONSISTENCY IS IRRELEVANT! < 1265471665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's import to me :( < 1265471674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Son, I am import. < 1265471678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265471718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like i'm stumbled upon this wonderful oasis in programming language design < 1265471720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i've < 1265471729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the smartest people are here and it has such cool stuff < 1265471752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, she is my favourite preprocessor ever. < 1265471764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern synonyms are actually something i've always wanted in haskell < 1265471823 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has them < 1265471832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She does. < 1265471832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit < 1265471836 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are talking about she < 1265471842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BROKE THE GRAMMAR < 1265471858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION crawl back into my mud bath < 1265471861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has rules, and the first is: She can be talked about, but only if you respect her grammar. < 1265472031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a non-constructive proof for P=NP would be fun < 1265472074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go straight to ⊥; do not pass go, do not collect £200. < 1265472086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265472112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't testing *if* a number is prime in P? iirc that is < 1265472136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1265472159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. Known since 2002. < 1265472169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, AKS right? < 1265472173 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265472181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That book actually contained something meaningful? < 1265472183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm astonished. < 1265472195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stolen from someone else, right? < 1265472200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wut? < 1265472209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut indeed < 1265472209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, not A New Kind of Science. < 1265472214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was published in 2002. < 1265472216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, AKS Primality test < 1265472220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My inferrence engine is broken today. < 1265472230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean, it wasn't intentional < 1265472231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265472232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BROKE THE SPELLING < 1265472234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope :P < 1265472238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :'( < 1265472245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1265472249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: any totally dependawesome insights on http://www.daimi.au.dk/~madst/tool/papers/expression.txt < 1265472262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she has http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/higpig.html but i dunno seems hacky < 1265472262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265472268 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never actually understood this problem < 1265472273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. I didn't read through it < 1265472281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my understanding is < 1265472291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higgelty piggelty works nice for epigram < 1265472300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know if it's related to expression problem < 1265472301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have a vague memory of reading that AKS is horribly inefficient though. And that some of the non-polynomial algorithms are in fact faster in practise for most "practical purposes" < 1265472313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Ty a = Foo a | Bar a < 1265472318 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure even if I come up with a solution that I deem _perfect_ other people will just say it sucks < 1265472329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, we can easily add functions (columns) to this without violating type safety or modifying existing code, < 1265472339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we cannot add new rows (data type cases) < 1265472342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1265472347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : func1 func2 func3 < 1265472349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know if it's "horribly inefficient" but yes, in practice it's slower than the probabilistic tests < 1265472351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo ... < 1265472352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bar ... < 1265472353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the results < 1265472355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it? < 1265472367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an object-oriented language, the columns can't be changed: they're the methods in a class < 1265472372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can easily add new rows: subclasses < 1265472381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression problem is: How can we have *both*? < 1265472396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second, < 1265472416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have data Expr = ..., and each constructor of Expr is a row < 1265472423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have func1, func2, ... each is a column < 1265472426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1265472445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily add new functions, but you cannot add rows *elsewhere in the program* < 1265472449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're fixed < 1265472455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with functions, you can just create a new one and bam, you're done < 1265472459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, with OOP < 1265472468 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to add a new constructor you have to update each func1, and to add a new func you have to update each constructor?? < 1265472471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have class Foo { int bar(); int quux(); } < 1265472477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each method is a column < 1265472478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have < 1265472488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the values as the rows still < 1265472494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can extend them < 1265472495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Bar extends Foo { ... } < 1265472498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can add rows < 1265472506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with FP you can add columns, with OOP rows; the problem is being able to add both < 1265472513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsewhere in the program < 1265472520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without breaking existing code < 1265472549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright let me think < 1265472554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make a text file showing this more clearly without ircspeak < 1265472563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do both of these (FP or OOP) approach using ADTs < 1265472583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean each one individually, using a different approach < 1265472584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, when you measure O(whatever) for an algorithm for prime factorisation, what exactly is it you measure it against. < 1265472596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to have one framework that lets you solve both problems at once.. < 1265472615 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Their complexities are O(f(n)) where n is the number tested < 1265472722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you say a number's size is its log < 1265472734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just stick 2^n in there < 1265472738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what Deewiant said < 1265472742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wouldn't then "try each number from 2 to sqrt(n) to see if it divides n" be O(sqrt(n)). After all, that is how many divisions you perform. And O(sqrt(n)) would grow slower than O(n), no? And isn't O(n) polynomial? < 1265472776 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting problem < 1265472778 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1265472780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be missing something critical here < 1265472790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's a pseudopolynomial algorithm for it, a polynomial algorithm, when talking about numbers, is one where you take n as the log of the number < 1265472816 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265472819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for numbers we have separate classes for taking the number as its own size (pseudo), and taking its log as size (more natural for most problems) < 1265472823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah. Which logarithm? the natural one? < 1265472829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter < 1265472846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll leave proving that as homework < 1265472870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it does... if you take the n-log < 1265472877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would always yield 1 < 1265472909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it must be a constant < 1265472918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1265472930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, misspiggy disappeared < 1265472948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway log_a(n) and log_b(n) are a constant apart, so that doesn't matter for O < 1265472950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1265472992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for anyone who wants an explanation of what the expression problem is: http://pastie.org/812457.txt?key=jy9qm2hfkgtfxiooahshxw < 1265473008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have enough problems already < 1265473012 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(5) < 1265473043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm correct me if I'm wrong but: log_a(n) > log_b(n) for all n if a < b? < 1265473047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265473052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revised version; forgot to change one sentence. < 1265473061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, that probably only applies to n larger than the base or such < 1265473064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nope < 1265473065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Is a bitch one? < 1265473078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: they all have to do with complex analysis < 1265473094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "nope" to "only applies" or to the original statement? < 1265473120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what n is, log is increasing < 1265473121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: So I suppose you could say that you have 99 (minus 94) problems, but a bitch ain't one. < 1265473130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well n>0) < 1265473140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes, but that isn't what I said. I said what their relative values are < 1265473144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between two different bases < 1265473144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: is that a reference to something? < 1265473154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. Also, http://i.imgur.com/b8OLl.jpg < 1265473168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh sorry < 1265473189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, log_10(500) < log_e(500) for example < 1265473203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's true then, log is decreasing w.r.t. base < 1265473205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are the ones with easily accessible buttons on my calculator < 1265473310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What you're missing in your trial division thing is the complexity of a division < 1265473310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, does it make sense to do something like lim_{a->+inf} log_a( whatever ) < 1265473336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the topology! < 1265473340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, why not < 1265473353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, then use that log for the complexity! < 1265473386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever it is constant or not could perhaps be argued, but it no longer depends on n at least < 1265473392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i guess you win < 1265473396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. What is that complexity < 1265473410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(n^2) with the trivial algo < 1265473415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, I'm on deep water here, I probably missed something crucial. < 1265473454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is still polynomial unless I'm completely missing something? < 1265473458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember what the known bounds are tho < 1265473468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait were you serious about the lim? < 1265473472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you meant < 1265473478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not really < 1265473509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it is an interesting question: What happens with logarithms as the *base* approaches infinity? < 1265473541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function "f(n) = lim_{a->+inf} log_a( n )" is the constant function 0, i think < 1265473608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also think in the interval [1, inf) we have uniform convergence, but my head hurts a bit too much now to be sure < 1265473676 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265473677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, prolly not. < 1265473712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If n = number of bits in the number then trial division is O(2^(n/2)) (Wikipedia), which I guess is where the non-P-ness comes from. < 1265473806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265473885 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265473908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why can't you have negative arguments to log? I mean, y = log_a(x) means the same as a^y = x right? And in the latter you can get negative x. < 1265473936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and e^x > 0 for real x < 1265473937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a=-4 and y=3 < 1265474011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-4)^3 = -64 Thus shouldn't 3 = log_{-4}(-64) ? < 1265474087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So -64 takes 3 digits to represent in base -4? Noted. < 1265474110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a negative base, it makes no sense to give the log any arguments except naturals afaik < 1265474112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yeah, when you think of logarithms that way it doesn't really work out ;P < 1265474127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it true though? < 1265474130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For general negative x, y is complex < 1265474140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And non-unique < 1265474145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? (-2)^(-1/2) gives an imaginary answer, doesn't it? < 1265474175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abc in base n is just (((a*n)+b)*n)+c < 1265474191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more precise, isn't it ((sqrt(2))^-1)i < 1265474229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah, the lack of uniqueness could indeed cause issues < 1265474290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm okay i'm not sure what i was thinking < 1265474307 0 :MissPiggy!~e@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265474315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehisrd < 1265474320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265474328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but then sqrt(n) really isn't unique either, except it is defined to be the positive value. Which is why you for the solution to x^2 = 4 would write x=+/- 2 < 1265474330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression problem, explained simply. < 1265474342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird iI think I can give nice solution < 1265474353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you so excited you can't type? :P < 1265474354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes essential use dependendt types < 1265474361 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no this sthing is qwerty < 1265474362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265474365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah lol < 1265474367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265474377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am on my moms computer because I got fed up with this installer < 1265474379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, which layout normally? < 1265474384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colemak < 1265474387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265474397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As I see it, the problem is defining log_a(x) so that it gives the appropriate real result for negative x, but is undefined when no such value exists < 1265474439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you know lists < 1265474447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excpet backwards... < 1265474453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] :: a :: b :: c < 1265474458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265474460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent < 1265474465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the type of c can depend on the tail of the list < 1265474473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head you mean < 1265474477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265474478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head::tail < 1265474482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are we still calling it the tail < 1265474485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just having tail::head < 1265474486 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: log_a(x) would be defined when: x > 0 & a > 1 or x < 0 & a < 0 & what < 1265474509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you coulld have xs :: x, then x : Vector (length xs) < 1265474510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? Two things there: 1) why must it be a real value? 2) undefinedness in some points doesn't sound too bad, after all x^-1 is undefined for x = 0 (defined in all other points afaik) < 1265474522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1) if you want it to be complex, that's already been done. < 1265474535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get [] :: () :: (a) :: (x y) :: (p q r) < 1265474540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ln(-1) = i pi < 1265474544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=set < 1265474544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1265474557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For 2), sure, but what's the definition < 1265474559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so similar to this, instead of making a triangle ou could make a matrix < 1265474566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding rows and cols to it < 1265474570 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1265474578 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone got introduction to algorithms 3e? < 1265474578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 1) hm right 2) what? < 1265474579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: interesting! < 1265474589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What I just said < 1265474591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it work for any type? i don't think so < 1265474594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to define it to work < 1265474600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, isn't it undefined due to x^-1 = 1/x and division with zero being undefined? < 1265474602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure, you can let it be undefined for some values, but what are those values < 1265474609 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the actual elements of each row/col would have a type computed based on the recursion structure of the function in that column against the fold for the type of that row < 1265474633 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird anyway that's just the idea.. I'll try and write it out and see if it works < 1265474636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Huh? e^(i pi) = -1 < 1265474663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If that works it's really cool < 1265474663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think we are talking about two different things here. with regards to 2). < 1265474675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^..^ < 1265474680 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on < 1265474682 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone has to < 1265474683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Didn't "sure, but what's the definition" refer to the bit "x^-1 is undefined for x = 0"? < 1265474697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265474697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1265474700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I meant what would the definition of log_a(x) be < 1265474709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I read "what" as "that" -_- < 1265474712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what values of a and x would it be defined for < 1265474730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in, you claimed x^-1 was undefined for x=0 due to being defined that way XD < 1265474741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no. :-P < 1265474761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although that's sort of true too.) < 1265474770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1265474814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^-n is defined as 1/x^n for x != 0, n > 0 < 1265474856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can define the function to have any value you want, you just can't make a field have a meaningful multiplicative inverse for 0 < 1265474865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, forgot that was by definition rather than as a consequence of something else < 1265474878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's a consequence of what i said < 1265474893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it's defined that way < 1265474895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but a lot of math wouldn't work if it wasn't defined like that though. < 1265474954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it's unnecessary or anything. < 1265474983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(differentiation of expressions like x^(1/3) comes to mind) < 1265474995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm is it an axiom then? < 1265475007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just a definition. < 1265475017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1265475120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it radically change the "rule" that (x^a)' = a*x^(a-1) though if that definition of negative exponents didn't exist? < 1265475141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrrm, maybe it could be defined in some other way for when a<1 in that case < 1265475155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x^a)' = a*x^(a-1) < 1265475159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in no point but 0 could that change < 1265475165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1265475174 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two kinds of differentiation < 1265475194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is where you differentiate a function, like the function x |--> x^a < 1265475222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is where you differentiate 'formally', like it's just some kind of symbolic operation on syntax < 1265475230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get dxdx = 0, dxdy = -dydx < 1265475238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird as fuck.... < 1265475272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are natural ways to interpret those, even without infitesimals < 1265475290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to be honest i'm not sure i understand them < 1265475305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I always distrust math that treats dx and dy as if you could treat them like a normal variable. For a start; they consist of more than one letter! ;P < 1265475312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ... it gives the right answer in the end < 1265475314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/;/:/ < 1265475322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d isn't a letter though < 1265475322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formal differentiation is usually an operation defined for polynomials defined just like differentiation usually works for polynomials < 1265475331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d is a magical operation and it isn't even the letter d! < 1265475336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i consider d an operation, prolly cause i'm stupid < 1265475344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's a transformation on variables < 1265475355 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(u+v) = du+dv < 1265475366 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(uv)=du*v + u*dv < 1265475371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1265475484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly distrust how integration by substitution due to the way it treats dx. Stuff like dx/dt=t' leading to dx=t'dt :/ < 1265475502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a mnemonic < 1265475506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes I know that < 1265475518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you know integration by substitution < 1265475522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still creeps me out though < 1265475524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea about that < 1265475546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intergration by substitution works as follows: substitute something for x. < 1265475547 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (x,y,z) is one coordinate system (u,v,w,...) is another, then you make a pullbacn < 1265475552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pullback < 1265475567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I have a test in a course about integration in two weeks time. Err make that integration and differential equations even. < 1265475606 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the idea is that you can transform forms like Adx+Bdy+Cdz into a du,dv,dw.. form < 1265475618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what? < 1265475638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, wait, is that integration in more than one variable? < 1265475649 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265475676 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can interate over dx,dy,dz, or dydz,dxdz,dydx or dxdydz < 1265475681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I don't read that much math when studying CS. At least not during the first year < 1265475694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which corresponds to the curves, surfaces and volumes < 1265475719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course 3D is just one special case of nD < 1265475768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yes, I am aware of that it is possible to do integration in more than one variable. I don't know how however. < 1265475819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well theres this theorem that relates integration over a boundry to integration over the volume itsselt < 1265475819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you have a function from an n-dimensional rectangle to reals, just integrate one axis at a time < 1265475845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all pretty nebulous and convoluted.. I'm still trying to figure it out myself < 1265475846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1265475854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean integrate along one axis, and at each point integrate over the (n-1)-dimensional rectangle < 1265475858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :corresponding to that point < 1265475911 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265475916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, like ∫(∫(∫...dz)dy)dx? or something like that? < 1265475928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanna integrate a function from some more complex thing, you usually use substitution so you can integrate on a rectangle < 1265475937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah something like that < 1265475965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fubini's theorem says you can integrate along the axes separately, and order matters not < 1265475968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean: do they go inside each other, instead of, say, being multiplied with each other or some other operation to combine them < 1265475975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside of each other < 1265475979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265476003 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah is that fubini's theorem < 1265476009 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should know that.... < 1265476028 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265476033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, seems like a PITA to calculate though < 1265476053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(considering what a PITA integrals in one variable is) < 1265476060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have n axes, you have to solve n integrals < 1265476060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is/are/ < 1265476076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often some of them are just multiplication < 1265476108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh? "often" as in "often in exams" or "often in real world applications"? < 1265476167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you're integrating f(x, y) = x over [0,1]x[0,1], you'd have int_{x from 0 to 1}( int_{y from 0 to 1} x ), so you just get int_{x from 0 to 1} ( x ), because you're integrating the *constant* x over y < 1265476202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're integrating an expression that doesn't depend on y over variable y, then it's just multiplication < 1265476207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about the real world < 1265476214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or calculus, for that matter < 1265476284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In real world you just integrate numerically and forgot all that symbol-manipulation nonsense. (Okay, so maybe not *quite*...) < 1265476291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also, as far as I have understood it, ∫(f(x)*g(x))dx can't be solved for _all_ f and g where both ∫f(x)dx and ∫g(x)dx can be solved. Except with numerical methods that is. < 1265476301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you can solve it for many such products < 1265476324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was in reply to " often some of them are just multiplication") < 1265476348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1265476350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay you completely misunderstood then < 1265476366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reread "oklopol: if you're integrating ..." < 1265476399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, yes, I was so busy writing that line to be correct, I hadn't noticed any line after " oklopol, oh? "often" as in [...]" < 1265476407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int_{y from a to b}( x ) is integrating a constant from a to b, so you just get (b - a)x < 1265476450 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often the expression is only nontrivial to integrate over one axis (in homework problems that is :P) < 1265476491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int_{y from a to b}( x ) <-- I can't say I'm familiar with that syntax. It looks like pseudo-latex though. < 1265476521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even int y a b (x) should be obvious < 1265476544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, to be more specific: I'm unable to detect any dx or dy indicating which variable you are integrating to < 1265476554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that would be y < 1265476556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, "integrating with respect to" < 1265476557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use d's < 1265476581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, then that line makes perfect sense yes < 1265476616 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be (b - a)y then, not (b - a)x. < 1265476644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what would be? < 1265476668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, right, I read that exactly upside-down. < 1265476675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err wait... the x would still be there as well, no? wouldn't it be x*(b-a)*y < 1265476678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is not necessarily even bound after the integral, and okay < 1265476690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8| < 1265476704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, nvm < 1265476704 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: y means nothing except inside that integral. < 1265476716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I forgot that it wasn't an indefinite integral < 1265476718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xb - xa. < 1265476734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is what gives (b-a) indeed < 1265476742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what does it have to do with this that it's indefinite? < 1265476818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, unless I'm completely confused by now: ∫xdy = ∫(x*1)dy = x*∫1dy = x*y < 1265476829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i mean apart from the fact it's not one) < 1265476842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just write < 1265476844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265476850 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∫dx < 1265476852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, for an indefinite integral that's correct. < 1265476856 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need ∫1dx < 1265476879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yes. I added the 1 to make it clear what I meant though. < 1265476888 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265476898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for an definite one then y turns into (b-a) < 1265476908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∫_A dxdydz is the volume of A < 1265476918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1265476933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am aware. < 1265476947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, but looks like oklopol got confused: < 1265476949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y is what gives (b-a) indeed < 1265476949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...what does it have to do with this that it's indefinite? < 1265476981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was confused, didn't see why it's relevant that the definite integral was indefinite < 1265476987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So why are you talking to me and not him? < 1265476989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it wasn't true < 1265476989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, my point was that I forgot it _wasn't_ indefinite < 1265476994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265477010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AnMaster: oklopol, I forgot that it wasn't an indefinite integral" misread < 1265477017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well: both since you highlighted me ;P < 1265477062 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because he didn't respond < 1265477094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err? he did? " oh" 8 seconds before that highlight? < 1265477123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't sure if that was a response :-P < 1265477132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realized what he meant < 1265477151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and continued watching simpsons < 1265477152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I couldn't see what other interpretation would make any sense though < 1265477224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265477259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: definite integrals from 1 to infinity (or similar) are creepy. < 1265477259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should sleep < 1265477309 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265477371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's creepy about them? < 1265477380 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265477418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it something like the integral of 1/x from 1 to inf went to infinity. But if you rotated the curve that is formed by that function around the x axis and integrated to find the volume of it, then it result in some finite number? But if you tried to find the area of that body, it went towards infinity < 1265477435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that old thing < 1265477436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember if it was 1/x or 1/(x^2). Something like that anyway < 1265477445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about the same thing in one less dimension < 1265477456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265477458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have the curve 1/x^2 or something < 1265477463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the are under it is finite < 1265477467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the actual line is infinite < 1265477468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265477470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW < 1265477474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*area < 1265477478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is creepy too. But not quite as creepy < 1265477487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's the paint argument < 1265477493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1265477498 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you pour paint into the infinite tube < 1265477501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll fill up < 1265477503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, Yes I heard that < 1265477512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can never actually paint it < 1265477513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wouldn't be enough to paint the sides < 1265477516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1265477516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265477536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is this makes absolutely no sense as an analogy < 1265477555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you'd be painting it with some constant thickness of paint < 1265477592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously you'll be using much more paint toe paint it than to fill it, after a whi < 1265477604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to paint it *while < 1265477610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wild mouse) < 1265477692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, about that thickness: you could get it go towards zero. < 1265477717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(makes as much sense at the rest...) < 1265477732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265477737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are several creepy bits here: 1) that an integral from n to infinity can give a finite value (where n is a finite number). 2) that you get finite volume and infinite area. < 1265477740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the amount of paint would also be finite < 1265477756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for 1), that is excluding the integral of f(x)=0 < 1265477815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or functions that not only approach zero, but actually reach it and then stay there. < 1265477820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds about as creepy as "two numbers can add up to a third one" < 1265477821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some finite point < 1265477830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265477885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just does not sound creepy < 1265477925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: they CAN?!?!?!? < 1265477931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, okay to be more exact: a function f(x) with the property that "f(x)>0 for all x" can (sometimes) when integrated from a finite number n to infinity have a finite integral < 1265477936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: they can, and they *will* :| < 1265477944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how is that not creepy? < 1265477960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure you know what creepy means < 1265478023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it sound creepy that we can have an infinite set all of whose elements are positive, but for which there is such a real number r that for all finite subsets of our set, the sum of that set is less than r? < 1265478034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what the whole thing reduces to < 1265478048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sum of that subset < 1265478054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't use words for stuff like that < 1265478085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? It seems to contradict intuition of reality. Yes I know that intuition is quite often wrong. Still results in a creepy feeling for some cases of it. < 1265478189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that way to express it is too abstract (to me at least) to visualise it. < 1265478213 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means you take your integral and round things up < 1265478216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why visualise it < 1265478222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get an infinite amount of numbers < 1265478226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of which are positive < 1265478258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you know anything about series, you can see this infinite amount of numbers can have such an upper bound < 1265478265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but try imaging this integral in terms of area < 1265478283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always imagine infinite sums in terms of area < 1265478295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say i have a sum of 2^n for n = 0, 1, ... < 1265478298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines a function which asymptotically approaches 0. < 1265478305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just start stacking them up < 1265478309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i see their sum is 2 < 1265478362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so you feel perfectly comfortable on all levels with the fact that an area A limited by two infinitely long sides can be finite? < 1265478364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably 2^-n < 1265478395 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265478424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure, i even feel comfortable with defining "area" of that to be a frog < 1265478445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1265478449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, har. < 1265478456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not a joke < 1265478459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negative bases are awesome < 1265478461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signs are rubbish < 1265478474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no connection between mathematical areas and the real worls < 1265478476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*world < 1265478480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1265478480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, balanced -ternary? < 1265478483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ther eisn't < 1265478485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base < 1265478486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there isn't < 1265478515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where - is a minus sign of course < 1265478592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, then how do you explain that finite real world and math areas seem quite often to match up? < 1265478606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Holes/Holes.pdf < 1265478608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awesome < 1265478632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because we constructed them to be vaguely similar to the real world at first < 1265478644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they model the real world well; obviously i didn't mean what i said < 1265478647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matheamtics has no inherent existence, it's just single-manipulation we dreamed up < 1265478650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was completely true < 1265478660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. < 1265478684 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics is real < 1265478712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your definition of "real" is strange. < 1265478715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, unless it is complex (or quaternionius or whatever) < 1265478724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not exist physically, and abstract concepts do not really "exist" as such, they only exist insofar as operations on them. < 1265478725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265478733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the geometry of our world isn't the same as R^n, it's just one approximation of it < 1265478736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the symbol manipulation was all invented by us. There's no inherent existence of mathematics. < 1265478738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quaternionius" sound incredibly awkward < 1265478739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe does not have mathematics. We do. < 1265478750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sounds like a good name for a fictional character. < 1265478753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quaternionius. < 1265478759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what genre? < 1265478764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO KNOWS < 1265478813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about fractals? Comfortable with them too? < 1265478863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is uncomfortable with a lot of very simple things. < 1265478863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm does a balanced negative base even make sense? < 1265478869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no one's saying mathematics isn't real, because that's not really a question, but according to modern physics we do not live in R^3, although a nice model of physics can be constructed by saying particles are points in R^3 < 1265478892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what definition of fractal? < 1265478908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with what you are saying about geometry < 1265478931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not all that comfortable with sets whose hausdorff dimension is not a natural number, they are usually really scary < 1265479006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm. < 1265479015 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265479076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also I'm no expert on fractals, not sure what you mean with definition of fractal here. The bit that defines a specific fractal? < 1265479113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of fractal" can't really mean more than one thing < 1265479144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1265479162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hausdorff measures are a way to measure sizes of sets, just like jordan measures and lebesque measures, jordan being the simplest one; hausdorff measures take as argument the "dimension" of the set you're measuring, for instance if you draw a line in R^3, it's 1-dimensional measure can be finite, although it's 3d-measure is clearly 0 < 1265479196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could think of two things: a) definition of a given fractal b) definition of what a fractal in general is. < 1265479211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of fractal" can't mean a) < 1265479217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hausdorff dimension of a set is such a real number that the hausdorff measure of the set, with that dimension, is not zero or infinite < 1265479219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if possible < 1265479225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of x" where x is known to be a fractal does < 1265479239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now fractals, afaik, are defined as sets whose hausdorff dimension is not a natural number < 1265479276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a common way to construct such sets is through these recursive thingamajigs < 1265479293 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are probably a more common definition for a fractal < 1265479340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i'm saying is i'm comfortable with drawing things recursively, but sure, some complex sets are pretty scary < 1265479347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes recursive algorithms is the most common way to define a fractal that I have seen < 1265479352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not the only way < 1265479369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a given fractal < 1265479383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything is a fractal that can be computed using recursion, or what exactly? < 1265479403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, not afaik. < 1265479407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a question by which i mean that's a crappy definition, the hausdorff one is sexy < 1265479429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I did know a bit about the dimension thing < 1265479433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265479477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean, you knew we can embed k-dimensional objects in n-dimentional space? < 1265479495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dimensional < 1265479547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what ehird said about common creepyness above: by that logic complex numbers should be creepy. But they aren't IMO < 1265479624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what do you mean, you knew we can embed k-dimensional objects in n-dimentional space? <-- I knew that fractals had a non-natural number dimension. < 1265479658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? cool. < 1265479668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i hope you also know not all do) < 1265479704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265479716 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well err < 1265479735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you use the definition "thing you can draw using some sorta recursino" < 1265479738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recursion < 1265479740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265479804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well that includes things that aren't fractal clearly. Such as: f(x,y) = draw a straight line of length 1 jonined up to f(x+1,y) < 1265479810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something like it) < 1265479820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265479839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, while recursive, would give you a straight line starting at a given point and then going on forever < 1265479906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sexiest thing about hausdorff dimensions is you don't have need to be working with real numbers < 1265479912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just any metric space < 1265479915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about requiring more operations for each step (alt: you recurse more than once at a given level) < 1265479931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most (all?) fractals seems to be like that? < 1265480006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "f(L) = divide the line L in 3, remove middle, call the other two L1 and L2, f(L1), f(L2)" < 1265480020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, is that a fractal, or just something similar? < 1265480022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :koch snowflake < 1265480028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265480037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the cantor set < 1265480046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you come up with that? < 1265480055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I know that algorithm is a classical one < 1265480059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you did, you could've been famous! < 1265480060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265480061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't remember the name of it < 1265480078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also called cantor's dust, it has useful properties < 1265480091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, name is indeed familiar when you mention it < 1265480103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anyway, what is the dimensionality of it < 1265480132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cs's are homeomorphic (the ones obtained by different sorts of splits into three parts), but some leave you with zero measure, some have finite < 1265480139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with lebesque measure) < 1265480149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1265480152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homeomorphic lebesques. < 1265480160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD < 1265480161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they have porn of those. < 1265480208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higher math is actually all porn behind the scenes < 1265480212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: " koch snowflake" <-- that's the one you add in a triangle (well, two sides of one) in the middle, right? < 1265480213 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if the hausdorff dimension goes down and measure goes up for some splits, you'd have to ask someone who actually know about this stuff < 1265480231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265480242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homeomorphic lebesques functoring. < 1265480279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bona fide elements of ∅ are hard to come by, so we may safely offer to exchange them for anything you might care to want: as you will be paying with bogus currency, you cannot object to our shoddy merchandise." < 1265480332 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265480343 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265480374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that quote is one truly awful joke... < 1265480400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is it from? < 1265480411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not so much a joke as colourful wordplay. < 1265480434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Holes/Holes.pdf, a paper that begins: < 1265480434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, maybe calling it "joke" was stretching things a bit ;P < 1265480438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstract < 1265480441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mornington Crescent < 1265480443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Introduction < 1265480446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The purpose of this paper is not only self-citation (McBride, 2001; McBride & Paterson, 2006), ... < 1265480454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, the abstract is actually "Mornington Crescent".) < 1265480463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265480522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the language used, which one is it? haskell? < 1265480536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts of it look quite similar at least from a quick glance < 1265480849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell with a few bits of do-what-i-mean. < 1265480859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In < 1265480863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughtE :: ∅ → a < 1265480864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughtE = ⊥ < 1265480866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, < 1265480873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥ would be an operator and thus not valid like that < 1265480884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't matter because it's a paper, not a program. :P < 1265480898 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265480906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And they don't actually, you know, define ⊥.) < 1265481045 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265481046 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265481075 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265481137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1265481143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, she forgot language < 1265481158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lambek calculus was designed for grammatical structures. < 1265481294 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur returns to the discussion, just in time for me to wake up < 1265481301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey :p < 1265481317 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ಠ_ಠ < 1265481325 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hai < 1265481448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1265481549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i think you're naughtE < 1265481672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves at folk < 1265482299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey pikhq < 1265482353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey. < 1265483184 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265483244 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if ehird is going to read FS soon < 1265483455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im having an email convo with noam chomsky D: < 1265483455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265483457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265483954 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265484022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18:32] you're right, she forgot language < 1265484022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1265484027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: really? < 1265484028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1265484060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: misspiggy is not a boy. < 1265484066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's fax. < 1265484068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka soupdragon < 1265484071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fax is a girl. < 1265484078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure i've heard otherwise < 1265484094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If using a female nickname one should expect female pronouns. < 1265484102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we'll ask just to confirm ;P < 1265484116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: indeed, tho, yes. lambek calculus _is_ a theory of grammar. < 1265484142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Joachim Lambek proposed the first noncommutative logic in his 1958 paper Mathematics of Sentence Structure to model the combinatory possibilities of the syntax of natural languages. His calculus has thus become one of the fundamental formalisms of computational linguistics." < 1265484143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alice < 1265484145 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In wonderland. < 1265484148 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, taken. < 1265484157 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1265484277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what's your evidence that fax is a girl? my evidence that e is male is: one, probability; the vast majority of this channel is male - in fact, I believe there are no females currently in here, and a vague recollection of some sort of data meaning he was male, but my memory is terribly fuzzy when it comes to this place; so much talk, so little time. < 1265484287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my evidence is that she told me so. < 1265484311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe shes a transgirl, however, hence the potential confusion. < 1265484326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how ehird will/would react to the RoboZZle addiction in here < 1265484335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ah. < 1265484358 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up sweeties? < 1265484365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe transman? i have no clue about the details, honestly. < 1265484383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is that fax/soupdragon/misspiggy is smart and interested in CS and linguistics < 1265484388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore has become a good friend. < 1265484393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: WHOS YOU < 1265484397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i think we've had more transgirls here than cisgendered females < 1265484399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONT CHEAT ME < 1265484420 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're a transgirl. < 1265484428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. no i'm not < 1265484429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho maybe not intentionally :X < 1265484436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gender is 0.5 :P < 1265484446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265484453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is genderqueer! < 1265484522 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i am you < 1265484527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265484529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1265484531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god programming languages are sexy :| < 1265484535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes out with himself < 1265484540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i be typesexual < 1265484545 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages are transgender < 1265484557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you're into programming languages with strict typing < 1265484564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ofcourse means lots of leather and whips < 1265484569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was about to - < 1265484608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm going to stick with this name for a while, see how many people treat me differently because they think i have ovaries < 1265484637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wont < 1265484639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate ovaries < 1265484657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're still ehird, and ovaries wont make you most spiteful < 1265484663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more* < 1265484670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was thinking about what to call the empty type, right, and I thought hey, I could use ∅ *and* have it be used by sequence/collection/whatever. I just have to make Set (or Type or whatever) an instance of it! But that won't work, because there'll be operations like cons :: a -> sequence a -> sequence a which doesn't make sense because one, sets/types don't have element types < 1265484672 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you have 'introduction to algorithms' 3 ed for me? < 1265484686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and two, they're not really a concrete collection of values < 1265484691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm back to square one < 1265484694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: what? < 1265484713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: call it Empty. thats what the dependent type people call it. < 1265484717 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am looking for the book called what i just mentioned, augur < 1265484725 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: ill try! < 1265484735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I *am* a dependent type person! < 1265484742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: but I'm also a Unicode whore. < 1265484752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265484758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use an epsilon < 1265484773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ should be reserved for actual {}'s < 1265484787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but epsilon is "arbitrarily small", not "length one" < 1265484791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ε is occasionally used for the empty string, but < 1265484792 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: 2ed gives minus 50 points < 1265484813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you think ∅ is acceptable for any sequence, though? < 1265484828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists, concrete sets (actual {}s, as you put it), associative maps, etc. < 1265484830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its not a sequence < 1265484839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a convenient and pretty notation < 1265484853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ∷ 2 ∷ 3 ∷ ∅ < 1265484878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait < 1265484884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i want isn't "arbitrarily small" < 1265484886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want "empty" < 1265484892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epsilon isn't empty, it's arbitrarily small < 1265484908 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its the empty string in formal language theory! < 1265484910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatedly, what should I call the unit type? maybe a circle < 1265484913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: i only have the second edition :( < 1265484924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant find the 3rd edition anywhere < 1265484926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: don't get me wrong, I don't care about total mathematical notation faithfulness < 1265484929 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you don't want minus 50 points, do you? < 1265484930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: unit type should be a fancy 1 < 1265484931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't want it to *confuse* mathematicians < 1265484936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: heh < 1265484939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: find me a fancy one and it's done < 1265484946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: blackboard 1 would work, to fit in with sets like N < 1265484958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well lets see what unicode gives us < 1265485011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard ∷ ∀a. a → ○ < 1265485012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard x = ○ < 1265485038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1⒈①❶➀➊⓵⑴Ⅰⅰ < 1265485048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, ➀ < 1265485056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :○ > ➀ imo < 1265485060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :☝ < 1265485075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a rude gesture. < 1265485090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had one more finger it would be < 1265485091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZAL҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚GO he cometh. < 1265485091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1265485107 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the ring tho < 1265485108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ring is nice < 1265485138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZAL҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚GO is ta∵∵si∵∵ < 1265485243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⦶⦸⦼⧃⧂ < 1265485249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check it out, im writing in naboo-an! < 1265485261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :○ is nice because it's like () but without the tupley implications < 1265485264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it isn't really tupley < 1265485269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1265485278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main ∷ Partial (IO ○) < 1265485295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⦾ < 1265485307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨀ < 1265485317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⇄ would be a good unicode name for IO. < 1265485320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊙⊚ < 1265485328 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think it doesn't exist :( < 1265485330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main ∷ Partial (⇄ ○) < 1265485338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: your second-last line is just a boob. < 1265485346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: it does, published in like september last year or something < 1265485359 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur thats not the kind of exist that i meant < 1265485363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨴ can denote partial < 1265485374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨴ (⇄ ○) < 1265485378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see that < 1265485392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its part of a circle! < 1265485394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication sign in left half circle < 1265485395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265485405 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you guys using squares all the time < 1265485412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're using unicode < 1265485413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're not < 1265485416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GTFO < 1265485419 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using xchat < 1265485423 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest version < 1265485432 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are you talking about < 1265485433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/25d6/index.htm < 1265485442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't do Unicode, then it sucks balls. < 1265485443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: one, stop using windows < 1265485444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two, get fonts < 1265485447 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i make xchat use unicode more than it does already < 1265485448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three, set encoding to utf-8 < 1265485455 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i set encoding < 1265485460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :press alt-f4. < 1265485478 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alttttttttttttttffffffff44444 < 1265485481 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt work < 1265485486 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant reach the minus < 1265485489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autodefenestrate < 1265485531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: Weak. < 1265485587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pikhq < 1265485597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to use _ for my multifix operator placeholder character < 1265485601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh you may not know what multifix is < 1265485607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: multifix lets you define operators like this < 1265485613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_else_ < 1265485622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[_] < 1265485623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(_) < 1265485637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_therefore_CHICKENPOX$_okay_okay < 1265485639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used as: < 1265485644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if poo then bar else lux < 1265485646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[bok] < 1265485649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wammy) < 1265485664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mints therefore (death is okay) CHICKENPOX$ whoa okay (2+2) okay < 1265485676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, even less special syntax. < 1265485691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ_._ < 1265485691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1265485692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lambda! < 1265485697 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i would like to stand up to your expectations but i cannot. :( < 1265485699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but I don't want to use _ for it because you should be able to use that in names < 1265485705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unicode is acceptable, even encouraged) < 1265485736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not sure; that's hard to pick... < 1265485784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used the boob character, ⨀, but it just didn't really look very good < 1265485786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if⨀then⨀else⨀ < 1265485795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ⨀.⨀ < 1265485800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Some sort of question mark would work < 1265485954 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try those squares again pls < 1265485958 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265485963 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, doesn't work < 1265485971 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try again? < 1265485985 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: you also need a good font or an IRC client that does font substitution properly < 1265485994 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265485999 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: try once again < 1265486003 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‽℀℘ℋ₨áóíúéμ < 1265486009 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, still squares < 1265486009 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/RETURN <-- made an interpreter in python < 1265486010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: no spaces < 1265486022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if※then※else※ < 1265486025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a holocaust < 1265486027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265486032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if BOOM then BOOM else BOOM < 1265486039 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw: interrobang, a/c, some weird p, some weirder H, Rs, 'a, 'o, 'i, 'u, 'e, mu. < 1265486041 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: i am using xchat, is that not a good client for that? < 1265486053 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: try setting the encoding to UTF-8 < 1265486053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has ℀ got to do with anything? < 1265486064 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, Asztal: i tried doing /charset IRC and /charset UTF-8 < 1265486072 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both do not work < 1265486074 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww :/ i guess you might be lacking fonts then < 1265486087 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do i get unicode fontz for my windoze? < 1265486103 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idunno, all i can say is you can get them with linux < 1265486108 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or FreeBSD, even < 1265486136 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest you look at that python interpreter, the idea is really scary < 1265486176 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try this < 1265486177 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courier New – 2726 characters (3151 glyphs) in version 5.00 < 1265486217 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh... AFAIK X11 rips chars from other fonts < 1265486219 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't see áéíóú that's an indication that it's not a font issue < 1265486224 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything's missing < 1265486246 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: i could see that < 1265486249 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't see ☭ that's an indication that it's probably a capitalism issue < 1265486252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: stop using windows. :) < 1265486253 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: but i could not see the 5 to the left of that < 1265486257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if☭then☭else☭ < 1265486258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: Yeah, X11 makes a best-effort to display everything, even if it is ugly as hell. < 1265486261 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stop being a transgirl :) < 1265486271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider it done < 1265486273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: not on my usual baux < 1265486278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, baux) < 1265486298 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: don't upgrade, pulseaudio in ubuntu 9.10 is extremely crappy < 1265486310 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i removed it with force < 1265486314 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...actually, with apt-get remove < 1265486320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like 9.10, but this isn't my machine < 1265486324 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also esound is broken too < 1265486325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hasn't been upgraded only out of laziness < 1265486328 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmkay < 1265486332 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my desktop runs freeBSD < 1265486345 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if¤then¤else¤ < 1265486351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally i run os x, which you can criticise for many reasons but excellent display of unicode text is not one of them < 1265486351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My desktop still runs 7.04 < 1265486360 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh freebsd has the best sound system for unix ever: newpcm < 1265486378 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like multi-application OSS < 1265486404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: we have that it's called ossv4 < 1265486434 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard that was the one that was single-app-only... hmm < 1265486445 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was one which did MIDI and one which did multi-app < 1265486465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ossv3, old oss, is single-app < 1265486470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ossv4, which is new and not in the kernel, isn't < 1265486474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm mistaken < 1265486481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's kernelspace just not in the mainline kernel) < 1265486610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, this isn't my desktop < 1265486617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely even use my desktop anymore < 1265486624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only when I want to get old files off of it < 1265486633 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the slowest installer ever < 1265486639 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsoft word viewer 97 or something < 1265486647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: perhaps a solid middle dot would work < 1265486650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get AbiWord? < 1265486651 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265486655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perhaps. < 1265486658 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try the squares again < 1265486662 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pls < 1265486671 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :最↓→ð < 1265486672 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps < 1265486675 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works < 1265486677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: also, harddrive sizes are not a marketing conspiracy. < 1265486680 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didnt even need to restart < 1265486682 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ‽℀℘ℋ₨áóíúéμ < 1265486686 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this did not work < 1265486698 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuils? < 1265486700 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see 5 squares and then 5 letters with diacrytics < 1265486709 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then \mi < 1265486714 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or \mu or whatever that is < 1265486714 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i reckon it's just being cheap < 1265486720 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265486750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: http://www.tarsnap.com/GB-why.html < 1265486759 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265486763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: Don't even see interrobang? < 1265486776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess you don't get a gnaborretni, either. < 1265486793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G = 1000 is standard; you cannot change prefixes. the unit after a prefix cannot change a prefix; that is merely nonsensical. Furthermore, the decimal, standard version is in fact *more common* in computing than the binary one. < 1265486821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ki/Gi/Ti are the standard binary prefixes; it should be RAM, which is the main exception to the decimal rule, whose marketing changes. < 1265486829 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't run 2.2GB processors, we run 2.2GHz. < 1265486844 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Gbps Ethernet transmits data at... 10^9 bits per second < that's also stupid. < 1265486846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please LART gm|lap, for he believes that units change their prefixes. < 1265486859 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was always 2^10 B for a KB < 1265486870 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 2.4GHz band which wireless ethernet operates within lies... between 2.4 x 10^9 and 2.5 x 10^9 Hz <-- likewise, not a byte. < 1265486880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: And it was fucking wrong. < 1265486892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop making things fucking wrong. < 1265486906 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop making things so damn cheapass < 1265486910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complaining about hard-drive makers using SI prefixes is the wonderful domain of idiots who like to appear smarmy and pedantic without actually caring about being correct. < 1265486923 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265486926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: I will quote from the page you apparently didn't read. < 1265486928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hard drive prices are determined almost entirely by competition between manufacturers, so if hard drives were labelled in GiB instead of being labelled in GB, we'd be paying the same number of dollars for the same number of bytes anyway — if this really was a global conspiracy, it would be one of the dumbest conspiracies ever." < 1265486949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: I will agree with you in one thing, though -- hard drives should be labelled in GiB. < 1265486958 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265486966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because they should be SSDs. < 1265486969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that does not mean a gigabyte is 2^10 megabytes. < 1265486975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mebibytes, for that matter) < 1265486977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are flash memory, which is addressed in silicon, so you get powers of two. < 1265486987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSDs: Sexually Satisfying Disk < 1265486989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1265486990 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megafael < 1265487000 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i restarted xchat and it said the 30 day evaluation is over < 1265487003 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i had to restart it < 1265487014 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was free open source software, wtf < 1265487020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, the Windows build isn't. < 1265487023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Silverex, or not Windows. < 1265487029 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try some unicode again? < 1265487035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. :D < 1265487074 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://silverex.net/news IIRC < 1265487081 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1265487088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This laptop has to be at least 3 years old < 1265487091 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not be unfriendly alise < 1265487095 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not nice < 1265487100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.silverex.org/news/ actually < 1265487108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: :'''''''''''''''''( < 1265487108 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is using Silverex < 1265487113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cry < 1265487131 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: can you try some unicode for me please? < 1265487146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should replace the ehird sighting in the topic with scarf sitings. anyone seen him recently? < 1265487199 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265487212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sightings < 1265487441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2237/index.htm < 1265487446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what it's actually supposed to b e < 1265487447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*be < 1265487451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"proportion" is unhelpful < 1265487491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: annoyingly unicode messes with layout :( < 1265487506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because characters that display as >1 character are still treated as one character < 1265487512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can't fit *every* character into a tiny space) < 1265487515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not without distortion) < 1265487521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :/ < 1265487526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution, of course, is non-textual editing! :P < 1265487837 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265487842 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265487848 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265487853 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this crap don't work < 1265487956 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265487987 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265488001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy < 1265488005 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265488014 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice name < 1265488033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your face :| < 1265488039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why thank you < 1265488045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know rite < 1265488085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just repartitioned and reinstalled my os < 1265488157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your solution to the expression problem, what if your type doesn't have any relevant dependicity? do you have to like put a dummy dependent thingy in to make it work? < 1265488169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean < 1265488178 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type < 1265488179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really understand it so yeah < 1265488239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265488307 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265488312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you asking < 1265488342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265488345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain your solution to me < 1265488347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really grok it < 1265488369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265488423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dyld: unknown required load command 0x80000022 < 1265488423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: trace trap ocaml < 1265488433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1265488435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is an AI?! < 1265488439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :le gasp < 1265488452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you're using OCaml and zsh on OS X. < 1265488453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're surprised by this? < 1265488459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am so inferrerator < 1265488487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay anyway, < 1265488496 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is to make a data type a bit like this one: < 1265488515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc a where nil :: Snoc a ; cons :: Snoc a -> a -> Snoc a < 1265488539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god dammit < 1265488545 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc a where nil :: Snoc a ; snoc :: Snoc a -> a -> Snoc a < 1265488555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya ya < 1265488567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference, is that in snoc xs x, you let the type of x depend on xs < 1265488569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps < 1265488620 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc f where ... ; snoc :: forall xs :: Snoc f, f xs -> Snoc f < 1265488641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you let f = const a, then it's equivalent to the old one < 1265488660 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you let f xs = Vector a (length xs),for example -- you get triangles < 1265488672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall xs :: Snoc f, f xs -> Snoc f < 1265488673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea is to use this to make matrices instead of triangles < 1265488674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this notation confuses me < 1265488694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just (xs :: Snoc f) -> (x :: f xs) -> Snoc f < 1265488697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use haskell notation like you've been doing but with (name::t)-style dependent type notation plz :P < 1265488699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265488699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1265488701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme write this out so far < 1265488723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type is f? < 1265488727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a->a? < 1265488733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, a->Set < 1265488738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: Snoc f -> Set < 1265488741 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265488752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't worry about the type of f < 1265488761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will probably become something else in the future < 1265488776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not Snoc f a < 1265488778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just Snoc f? < 1265488797 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah as I was writing Snoc f a I realized Snoc f subsumes it < 1265488808 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no need for an a < 1265488816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1265488822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc :: (Snoc f -> Set) -> Set where < 1265488822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : nil :: Snoc f < 1265488826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cons :: (xs :: Snoc f) -> (x :: f xs) -> Snoc f < 1265488833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, let me say this in words < 1265488856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons takes a value of type Snoc f named xs, and a value of type (f xs) named x, and returns a Snoc f. < 1265488866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f gets the rest of the list, and returns the relevant type < 1265488877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Snoc (const t) = Oldsnoc t < 1265488890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see how this is cool < 1265488895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a polymorphic list of sorts < 1265488901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the type of the element depends on the rest of the list < 1265488927 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265488945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can formulate a type meaning "the integer x", you could have snoc nil 1, snoc (snoc nil 1) 2, etc. type < 1265488946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing else < 1265488948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, got it < 1265488952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how does this solve the expression problem? < 1265488954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what we could do is define something like < 1265488968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW < 1265488977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COL < 1265489003 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when you snoc a ROW on, it computes the number of elements you have to define, to add this row (and col similarly) < 1265489023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you can build up a NxM matrix starting from a 0x0 one < 1265489043 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a first approximation that matrix could just have numbers in it, or whatever -- it doesn't really matter < 1265489066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to solve the expression problem we will have to compute the type of the cell based on the function spec. < 1265489077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just details, the important bit is SNOCing on ROWs, and COLs < 1265489289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait < 1265489292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me catch up < 1265489295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to read < 1265489300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so ROW and COL are data constructors < 1265489303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the same type or not < 1265489314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that they have to be of the same type < 1265489319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an issue is that < 1265489326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW does not actually add rows < 1265489329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : + func1 | func2 | ... Foo x y | y | x ... Bar x y | x | y ... +-----------------... < 1265489330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265489334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo x y | y | x ... < 1265489335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bar x y | x | y ... < 1265489338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all Foos and all Bars are the same row < 1265489339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW adds a column < 1265489343 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and COL adds a row < 1265489345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265489346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1265489364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:43] so when you snoc a ROW on, it computes the number of elements you have to define, to add this row (and col similarly) i don't get what you mean by that < 1265489471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265489479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1265489484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me answer that question < 1265489509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a sec < 1265489515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I think an example would help, so < 1265489516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265489519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unextended bit there < 1265489524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Foo x y and Bar x y as the rows < 1265489527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and func1 and func2 as the columns < 1265489534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you write that, given your definitions? < 1265489549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose we wanted to define functions, eval, size and show on data Exp = Num Int | Add Exp Exp | Mul Exp Exp < 1265489581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265489585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we use my example :P < 1265489591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to be rude, it's just that i understand mine < 1265489594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's very simple < 1265489612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of getting bogged down in details etc < 1265489759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z < 1265489844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: think I should have inductively defined sets as in mathematical notation? < 1265489848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be convenient, dunno < 1265489864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with the 0x0 matrix, [] `snoc` ROW "Num"*description of num () `snoc` Row "Add*description of add ()`snoc`COL eval (case for eval Num, case for eval Add)`snoc`ROW "Mul"*description of mul (case for eval Mul)`snoc`COL show (implementation of show for all 3 casese..) < 1265489871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that sequentially and slowly :P < 1265489890 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can consider inductives as sets, but I don't < 1265489911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you said something else completely < 1265489918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yerr, i don't understand that :( < 1265489920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can implement set theory in type theory < 1265489928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it for Foo/Bar/func1/func2? :P < 1265489935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a description < 1265489944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and er you have an unterminated string < 1265489949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just says whwat the type of the constructor is < 1265489992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265490094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we dont' program over the real data Expr = ... < 1265490108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are actually making a program over a generic sort of datatype called a universe < 1265490114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but uh < 1265490119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff < 1265490122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so U is isomorphic to Nat < 1265490130 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and U is .... Expr < 1265490137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is * < 1265490140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is string * thing < 1265490142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what operator is that < 1265490148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple? < 1265490151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I just meant that like a tuple yeah < 1265490159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for inventing notation without telling me :/ < 1265490175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :description = type? < 1265490182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be yeah < 1265490193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the resulting value < 1265490198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exists a. a)? < 1265490266 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resulting value? < 1265490271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what? < 1265490271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the type < 1265490273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which type < 1265490277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1265490278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :description < 1265490279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := type < 1265490280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of row < 1265490289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know this sort of notation? < 1265490295 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MuX.1+X < 1265490298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for data types < 1265490301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:57] you start with the 0x0 matrix, [] `snoc` ROW "Num"*description of num () `snoc` Row "Add*description of add ()`snoc`COL eval (case for eval Num, case for eval Add)`snoc`ROW "Mul"*description of mul (case for eval Mul)`snoc`COL show (implementation of show for all 3 casese..) < 1265490304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that line is what i'm referring to < 1265490322 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to realize that my idea takes quite a bit of background to understand.. < 1265490343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so I've tried to write my Foo/Bar/func1/func2 example using your notation. < 1265490347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait I have a great idea how to explain that < 1265490349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nil `snoc` < 1265490350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Foo" (a -> a -> (exists b. b)) `snoc` < 1265490352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Bar" (a -> a -> (exists b. b)) `snoc` < 1265490354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Col "func1" (\_ y -> y) (\x _ -> x) `snoc` < 1265490355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Col "func2" (\x _ -> x) (\_ y -> y) < 1265490362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah just like that < 1265490375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow adding rows. < 1265490380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265490385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I add a row, and then call func1 or func2 on it, they don't work; they explode and break. < 1265490390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they don't handle the new type. < 1265490391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265490393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to mark 7000 or so conversations as read < 1265490406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the OOP system, which can add rows, they inherit the definition (and you cannot remove fields, so they must work) < 1265490409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you add a Row you must define one new case for func1 and func2 < 1265490417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it becomes < 1265490420 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason you MUST do this, is because if you don't -- it will not typecheck < 1265490439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Quux" blah (\_ _ z -> z) (\_ y z -> y+z) < 1265490443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :func1 and func2 respectively < 1265490444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add N-rows and M-columns in any order, but at the end of the day you will have definede NxM cells of a matrix < 1265490450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265490465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good solution, but i can't help thinking that it should really be a language feature, not something added on < 1265490469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be incredibly awkward to program in < 1265490471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is compiling Coq to try and implement this < 1265490489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah it'll be awkward as fuck in Coq but I bet you could make easy as pi in epigram < 1265490496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy as pi :D < 1265490503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin' Coq < 1265490505 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the epigram that isn't quite finished yet, epi 2) < 1265490519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try agda? < 1265490527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flexible operators might help make the syntax more bearable < 1265490548 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 16,163 messages in label "Agora" < 1265490562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two rabbits < 1265490578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(13530 conversations here, comprising more messages) < 1265490584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umf gtg < 1265490591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: rjg spg < 1265490596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i look forward to your implementation < 1265490602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm going to play around with this as a language feature now < 1265490602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1265490646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when I said messages, I meant conversations >.> < 1265490665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1265490779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265490785 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Gmail account looks so clean now < 1265490852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After what? < 1265490878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/812719.txt?key=yvxcfkcsixjpvfijd5gug < 1265490881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks slick as a language feature < 1265490892 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marking everything as read < 1265490901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265490924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm < 1265490941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to mark all 30398 conversations as unread for no good reason < 1265490944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq < 1265490948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: More consistent syntax < 1265490954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the natural thing to do now is generalize it to infinite dimensions < 1265490964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would that help? :P < 1265490983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: one thing I don't like is < 1265490994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a function that's the composition of two columns, it doesn't need to be a column < 1265490999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it shouldn't be < 1265491000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1265491012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in functional programming you don't have to distinguish columnular and non-columnular functions < 1265491017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bit awkward to have to do so, in fact < 1265491031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I should say something here, < 1265491041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose we defined t1 = []`snoc`... a bunch of stuff... < 1265491051 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t2 = t1`snoc`... some more stuff... < 1265491070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: in mine, since tables would be compile-time, they would "mutate") < 1265491074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so no need to make new names) < 1265491093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so t1's type would express that it defines N-functions over some (M-constructor'd) datatype < 1265491102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: your system is a vulnerability < 1265491107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t2 would define more functions over a data type that is an extension < 1265491124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define a new row, and when defining the columns for that row, put in some evil code that breaks the assumptions, and the abstraction, of code using the column < 1265491127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy fix though: < 1265491132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that x is a value, and you wanted to apply it < 1265491135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add constraints requiring proofs < 1265491137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila, security < 1265491147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would need to PROJECT and EVALUATE the function out of the table < 1265491148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: apply it? < 1265491151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265491160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like projeval t1 "f2" x < 1265491172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mine, just f2 x < 1265491173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265491186 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265491226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there is any vulnerability though < 1265491231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq is remarkably elegant though < 1265491242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not if you make sure you have constraints on the functions < 1265491246 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265491249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like any good dependent programmer will < 1265491258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you'd have to inject code into the system anyway < 1265491258 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/programmer/type system/ < 1265491259 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265491260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you can do that, well... < 1265491262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: touche < 1265491277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we've discovered the Nth major paradigm < 1265491284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :table-oriented programming < 1265491288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not to be confused with SQL :P) < 1265491293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265491319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should use agda :/ < 1265491347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh I just thought of somethingn < 1265491350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to translate http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq into Haskell, through whatever tricks necessary < 1265491352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wut < 1265491364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha I don't think you can turn that into haskell < 1265491371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth a try < 1265491376 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this this good plugin for Coq I can try out < 1265491379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its type-system is TC with GHC extensions you know < 1265491393 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265491531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know what a TC type system is for < 1265491547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point is, it has type-level functions and a whole lot of other trickery. < 1265491552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's everything apart from dependent, pretty much. < 1265491555 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC or not, it still doesn't have lambda < 1265491564 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well you can do everything in SK < 1265491578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC means it is equivalent to lambda in computational power, though. < 1265491593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it does have lambda < 1265491597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to define them elsewhere < 1265491601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And compiling lambda to SK is trivial. Annoying, but trivial... < 1265491601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so it doesn't have lambda < 1265491606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has first-class functions (types) < 1265491914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internet archive is really slow today it seems < 1265491927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more than usually < 1265491958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(theory: it takes as long to go back in time as it took to get to the current point from then originally) < 1265491963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265491994 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265492020 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265492106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What good alternatives are there to C++? < 1265492157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-like alternatives, I mean. Not talking about Haskell here < 1265492165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, C? < 1265492177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With OOP, preferably < 1265492181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objective c then < 1265492187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not haskell? < 1265492217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people that got fed up with C++ because they couldn't push template metahacking it far enough moved to haskell < 1265492243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people that got fed up with Haskell because they couldn't push type-system metahacking it far enough moved to Epigram < 1265492315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wikis < 1265492325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: C, Objective C, D... < 1265492329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah Objective C < 1265492334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective D++ < 1265492338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265492340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language with literally every feature < 1265492344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective C++ is a real thing. < 1265492355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND SO IS OBJECTIVE D++ < 1265492378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not implemented. < 1265492395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1265492397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple implement it < 1265492404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so does gcc because of that < 1265492405 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm lol < 1265492408 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I shoulld probably learn D < 1265492413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't. it's shit < 1265492420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1265492434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first of all, the toolchain situation is hopeless; really terribly hopeless. you have no idea how hard it is just to get a working D compiler. D2 with all the fancy features? Forget it. < 1265492441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been like this for years, and I mean years. < 1265492444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secondly, it is not a designed language. < 1265492451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a pile of features, shat on each other. < 1265492701 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what it would be like to take a computer course where he's not guaranteed an A < 1265492740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably much like being in a different building. < 1265492833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265492894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I _think_ alise is saying I should switch schools in order to actually get challenging classes < 1265492901 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265492931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you're basically guaranteed an A in every class you're either a really excellent programmer or in a bad school. < 1265492939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or have done the classes before. :P < 1265492956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may be a really excellent programmer, but the probabilities are weighted in the direction of bad school. < 1265492983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the other students think I'm an excellent programmer.. < 1265492984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm getting the example translated, slowly < 1265492993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They could just be realy bad programmers, though. :P < 1265492999 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think that that's the case < 1265493002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not dissing you, just being all probabilitying. < 1265493037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so bayesian! < 1265493190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally mon < 1265493274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do you have any idea how many times i've seen the word "kind mismatch" in the past few minutes < 1265493336 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1265493346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinds are basically the type of tyoes? Maybe is * -> *? < 1265493362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo you are correct < 1265493387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1265493399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*words < 1265493410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-# LANGUAGE KindSignatures, RankNTypes, GADTs, FlexibleContexts #-} < 1265493412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sure sign of madness < 1265493504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1265493507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1265493849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to make a website that doesn't support Chrome work in Chrome < 1265493919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Chrome not support getElementById? < 1265494016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265494017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265494079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it should < 1265494086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some googling suggests it doesn't < 1265494143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supported < 1265494218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh < 1265494226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have something to do with the fact that it's in a table? < 1265494305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: my average in math is still A (called 5 here), recently thought i'd failed my first exam (apparently i just failed by my own standards), and it mostly felt nice to know the pressure to succeed every time was lifted. < 1265494346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if you actually wanna get A's, if you do, that might be relevant. < 1265494402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he means more "a programming class that isn't really easy" < 1265494432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, probably, that's why i hastily added the second line :P < 1265494437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll reread what he said < 1265494467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah < 1265494485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd probably feel nice, since taking trivial courses feels is a waste of time < 1265494493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265494497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another great sentence < 1265494516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should stop trying, i clearly haven't woken up yet < 1265494551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're trivial for me < 1265494558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if they're trivial for most people < 1265494607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean taking courses that are trivial for you is a waste of time. < 1265494633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do need to get a degree < 1265494658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose, i prefer to live in the moment < 1265494685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a degree from a bad school sounds exciting < 1265494732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: btw if you separate classes from their methods, and make methods functions, you almost get the table solution < 1265494763 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265494767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost? < 1265494876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you make a subclass you're not obligated to extend the previous functions to handle it unless you explicitly specify that < 1265494879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to add that rule < 1265494882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi coppro < 1265494887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265494887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION (ehird) < 1265494904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any particular reason? < 1265494931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he just likes you < 1265494935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265494939 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265494949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to see if people would treat me differently if they believed I had ovaries < 1265494961 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was like oooh want summa that < 1265494973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then i realized you were a guy < 1265494977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since this is basically the only channel I go in and #haskell is very noisy, this is not such a successful experiment < 1265494981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after reading a few of your lines < 1265494983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265494984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1265494993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY TALKINGS ARE VERY FEMININE < 1265495005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I behave any different towards women on the internet < 1265495015 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I just PM alise? < 1265495028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this stupid client thinks // means / < 1265495049 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real life is a different story :P < 1265495129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to have sex with every girl i see both online and irl (necessary and sufficient condition for being male), but usually i only show it on irc, because as we all know it's really funny. < 1265495144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do any existing dependent langs have isa :: a -> Set -> Bool < 1265495146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1265495160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isa?? < 1265495168 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like equality check? < 1265495188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I suspect the LGBT community has some pitchforks ready for you < 1265495220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265495243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been known to raise people's pitchforks < 1265495258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265495267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"..."? < 1265495269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pervert < 1265495273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1265495324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had water < 1265495326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1265495372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: anyway do you think Complex :: Set; Complex = {_+i_ m n | m ← Real, n ← Real} is good notation for set construction? < 1265495381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, I think: < 1265495385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Complex :: Set where < 1265495388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I think isa is probably inconsistent < 1265495396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _+i_ :: Real -> Real -> Complex < 1265495400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is easier to understand < 1265495406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also "specialer" < 1265495407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_i? < 1265495409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that {} stuff is horrid < 1265495477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has chem homework... should probably do it < 1265495675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265495708 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should DEFINITELY do LOTS of work right now < 1265495711 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am doing stuff instead < 1265495723 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this is not a very wise thing to do < 1265495841 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265495899 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496042 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265496065 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496116 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265496190 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496194 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-mynlnfkzvzkltblz JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:30:09 that {} stuff is horrid < 1265496198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're horrid. < 1265496201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:30:07 _+_i? < 1265496202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265496205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, both are ambiguous < 1265496209 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-29-91-78.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 +i 4 could be 3+(i 4) < 1265496222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 + 4 i could be 3 + (4 i) < 1265496245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then make i the Imaginary operator < 1265496248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:29:48 alise I think isa is probably inconsistent < 1265496249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1265496253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just type checking < 1265496264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:48 this stupid client thinks // means / < 1265496265 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ + _ :: Real -> Imaginary -> Complex < 1265496269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't see it, my connection went wonky < 1265496272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no way. < 1265496273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265496289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:25 I don't think I behave any different towards women on the internet < 1265496296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably do, sexism is incredibly ingrained in society. < 1265496372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: then again ambiguous operators are all the rage < 1265496377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_ plus if_then_else_ < 1265496389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if x then y else z) could be (if x then (y else z)) < 1265496392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where else is a variable name < 1265496406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that if_then_ makes any sense without an else clause but still < 1265496417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about an else by itself < 1265496432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh nevermind, since it returns Bool it doesn't matter < 1265496435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that's a name. < 1265496441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: as opposed to? < 1265496444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it gave some evidence then it might cause a problem < 1265496456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265496468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was wondering whether to make it give evidence, decided against it < 1265496498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_::_ :: a -> (a::Set) -> a < 1265496508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also I was thinking about: < 1265496520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to do quantification < 1265496526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λa. a -> a < 1265496526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265496533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: {a::Set} -> a -> a < 1265496534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1265496554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λ(a::Set). λ(_::a). a < 1265496559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one isn't feasible unfortunately < 1265496563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't say λInteger. < 1265496566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use capital lambda instead of small lambda < 1265496576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be sugar for? < 1265496577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265496582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait I'm wrong < 1265496607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1265496670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does a legitimate script feel a need to obfuscate its strings? < 1265496700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no good reason to say "\x75n\x64\x65fined" < 1265496772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undfined? < 1265496776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265496776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined < 1265496780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: filtering of something < 1265496790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265496940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe undefined is filtered by something < 1265497109 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do the same thing elsewhere in the code < 1265497112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including error strings < 1265497122 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\x41jax\x20\x63allba\x63\x6b er\x72\157\x72\x3a s\x6f\x75rce\x20url n\x6ft foun\x64\041\x20\012\x0d\012\x0dPlea\x73e ver\x69fy i\x66 y\x6fu ar\x65 usi\x6eg an\x79 URL\x2drew\x72itin\x67 co\x64e a\x6ed s\x65t \x74he \x41jax\x55rl\x20pro\x70er\x74y t\x6f m\x61t\x63h\x20th\x65 U\x52L \x79ou\x20ne\x65d." < 1265497147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I'm not psychic. < 1265497173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so do you think quantified types should make the type of the function a type-level function from a set to a set, or have it be an implicit parameter of the function? < 1265497177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the latter i guess < 1265497231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know what that means < 1265497240 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which function? < 1265497267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λa. a -> a < 1265497268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265497273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: (a::Set) -> a -> a < 1265497348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265497348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265497352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: {a::Set} -> a -> a < 1265497386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1265497387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ? < 1265497700 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15:44:32] you probably do, sexism is incredibly ingrained in society. < 1265497760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in your genes, pal < 1265497766 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should clarify; I will treat someone I am familiar with differently depending on their personality, including sex and gender. By default, however, I don't make any attempt to distinguish between the two. < 1265497772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is < 1265497797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly treat women differently in person < 1265497982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1265497983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1265497989 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but unless I have a particular reason to do so, I don't associate gender with someone over the internet < 1265498000 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise for other traits, such as age and race < 1265498064 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265498067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but if you know someone's female you'll probably treat them differently. < 1265498101 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the context < 1265498113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1265498361 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually treat women differently because they are completely different < 1265498407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's those venusian antennas < 1265498437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISN'T IT THE GUYS WHO HAVE... nm < 1265498445 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265498452 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265498501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what annoys me < 1265498513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupidity? < 1265498514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hardest part of doing lambda calculus and stuff is the variable renaming < 1265498518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fucking bullshit < 1265498521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody wants to rename variables < 1265498525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop using a shitty representation < 1265498526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1265498569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders a bit of psychology < 1265498603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychology is too hard < 1265498614 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i mentioned i just love wolframalpha? < 1265498618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just what you _think_ < 1265498626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you love wolframalpah < 1265498648 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i can write things like "integrate (-1/(e^(a-t+i*pi)-1)) with respect to t" and just know it understands what i mean < 1265498691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's ever misinterpreted me, even though i just write like i would to a human < 1265498707 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1265498707 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's misinterpreted me :( < 1265498710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with set stuff < 1265498713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying it's actually that great a parser, it's just others are incredibly stupid. < 1265498719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265498722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with that < 1265498729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just use it for integrals, because i hate them (suck at them) < 1265498752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of set stuff have you asked it? < 1265498783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i definitely had to rephrase things a bit when solving equations/graphing < 1265498799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you solved equations? < 1265498806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may i ask why? < 1265498845 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have you been doing math behind my back! :''() < 1265498865 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how does wolfram alpha work? < 1265498891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy parser, then stick the result into mathematica, prolly < 1265498901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just something trivial about population growth < 1265498924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 1.5 million lines of mathematica, so i assume it's just a list of hardcoded query * response pairs. < 1265498963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly the i and pi sort of simple stuff that i love i don't always have to explain to it, "(-1/(e^(a-t+ipi)-1))" works as well < 1265499006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265499015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: okay, that's fine then < 1265499018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was getting jealous < 1265499068 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265499111 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265499267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION seems to still have an active imagination < 1265499299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not imagination. those raptors you see coming toward you are _real_. < 1265499316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265499439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worlds that I create in my head < 1265499454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although both the major one and this one have me as a major Mary Sue < 1265499476 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the major one, I'm essentially God < 1265499482 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in this recent one, I'm fighting God < 1265499549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop stealing my ideas! < 1265500602 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265500750 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric