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00:22:45 <nooga> i'm eriting regexp compiler :D
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00:25:19 <nooga> imagine that you can compile custom grep-like program for matching massive amounts of data against specified regexp
00:26:42 <nooga> CPU will directly execute the automaton
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00:32:53 <nooga> whenever i write something bigger in C i do this funny thing: first i implement crude lisp and then i use it to write the main thing
00:33:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_Tenth_Rule
00:35:08 <Sgeo> Should I learn Lisp?
00:35:49 <Sgeo> As in, which dialect?
00:35:56 <Sgeo> I'm not about to go around buying books
00:36:40 <lament> MissPiggy: oh the mighty oracle, what's the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything?
00:36:41 <Sgeo> It seems to use Scheme
00:37:24 <lament> Sgeo: short answer: get PLT scheme and never worry about this again.
00:38:58 <nooga> like a f*#(@)&# perl script
00:38:59 <Sgeo> Also, which should I focus on learning: Haskell or Scheme?
00:39:28 <oerjan> learn each of them until you can implement them in each other!
00:39:39 <lament> Scheme first, because it's easier
00:39:48 <lament> and knowing scheme will help you learn haskell
00:40:01 <nooga> no, Haskell, because it's awesome
00:40:14 <Sgeo> I think I understand Haskell somewhat at this point
00:40:19 <lament> yes, Haskell is awesome, so if you start with Haskell you might never get to Scheme
00:40:24 <Sgeo> Not sure if knowing Scheme will help any more
00:40:40 <MissPiggy> I know haskell and scheme, and I know that there's much more to learn from both of them
00:40:58 <MissPiggy> I don't think Haskell - TICK, Scheme - TICK, next?
00:48:38 <Sgeo> If I were select one to use as my main language from now on, which should it be?
00:50:25 <nooga> i use C (C99) and Ruby
00:50:44 <nooga> C fror speed and Ruby for expression
01:04:25 <Sgeo> Did nooga turn into a parrot?
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02:34:54 <Gregor> http://filebin.ca/ydgebt/pvctrombone.ogg
02:37:14 * Sgeo fails to refrain from commenting
02:37:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, the PVC trombone.
02:38:18 * oerjan fails to refrain from responding to Sgeo's commenting
02:44:13 * pikhq notes that there are a lot of freaking characters in Japanese
02:45:38 <oerjan> how does a japanese character freak, exactly?
02:46:43 <pikhq> oerjan: To get the general sense of that statement, s/freak/fuck/
02:47:51 <oerjan> well yes i've heard that japanese are very inventive in that department
02:51:40 <pikhq> Literacy is a nontrivial affair.
02:53:46 <oerjan> triviality is a literal affair
02:54:05 <pikhq> Thou art full of pithy sayings.
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03:54:23 <Sgeo> Why am I not able to focus on my [classified] project?
03:56:27 <oerjan> you have lost your clearance, but of course this fact is secret so they cannot tell you. instead they use the mind control satellites to disorient you.
03:59:10 <Sgeo> It's not the government classifying it
03:59:18 <Sgeo> It's some company that's giving us the resources
03:59:28 <Sgeo> And it's not like I signed a contract to keep anything secret
03:59:30 <oerjan> what, you didn't think the _government_ is in control, did you?
04:00:06 <oerjan> of course you didn't sign a contract, they don't want that kind of evidence lying around
04:01:47 <Sgeo> The project was in existance for some time before it became classified.
04:01:56 <Sgeo> And I told a lot of people a lot of details
04:02:03 <oerjan> well that is what they _want_ you to think
04:02:51 <Sgeo> Well, someone did seem to forget everything after it became classified...
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14:31:44 <AnMaster> <Ilari> More precisely, it would demand that wormhole ("level 1 wormhole") that has one end in normal space, also has the other end in normal space, wormhole ("level 2 wormhole) that has one end in level 1 wormhole interror space has the other end also, etc... <- would be sad missing out on the possibility of mixed level ones
14:36:05 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, the PVC trombone. <-- PVC trombone? Is that actually what it sounds like it would be? (can't listen to the music atm, no headphones around, and I'm on the train)
14:36:30 <AnMaster> also when wgetting the url times out
14:36:51 <Gregor> I reuploaded to http://codu.org/tmp/pvctrombone.ogg because filebin was being useless.
14:37:06 <Gregor> "Is that actually what it sounds like it would be?" If it sounds like it would be a trombone made of PVC pipe, then yes.
14:37:25 <Gregor> It could look something like this: http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPVCTrombone3.jpg
14:38:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, I didn't imagine quite that look
14:39:15 <Gregor> It's a trombone, it has a slide.
14:39:25 <Gregor> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPVCTrombone4.jpg Here it is fully extended.
14:39:37 <AnMaster> and how do you decide the notes on it. I don't see where you drag it out or whatever it is you do
14:40:26 <Gregor> You play it like a trombone is how :P
14:40:47 <AnMaster> also this lag is horrible. I blame GSM for it
14:40:51 <Gregor> The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle.
14:41:29 <AnMaster> what is the pipe that goes up and isn't connected?
14:42:13 <Gregor> Wow, your lag is really bad :P
14:42:17 <Gregor> It's like two minutes.
14:42:27 <AnMaster> <Gregor> The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle.
14:42:29 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> what is the pipe that goes up and isn't connected?
14:42:51 <AnMaster> and the mobile indicates it is suddenly on 3G
14:42:54 <Gregor> Yeah, but I said that a minute ago :P
14:43:11 <Gregor> <Gregor> The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle.
14:43:22 <Gregor> They were two seconds off for you, but a lot more than that for me :P
14:43:25 <AnMaster> well the lag seems close to none to my bouncer now
14:43:29 <Gregor> Now it does seem to be better now.
14:44:01 <AnMaster> well, it's a train, it is moving. Would jump between different areas with different connectivity
14:45:09 <AnMaster> btw: the good thing with living close to a railway station is that that it is close to the station. The bad thing with living close to a railway station is that it is close to the railway station
14:46:53 <Gregor> Wow, today's xkcd is bad, even for xkcd.
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18:35:22 <cpressey> How do most reversible esolangs handle interactive I/O? (If at all?)
18:35:52 <lament> they force the user to untype the input and to forget the output
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18:36:12 <scarf> cpressey: my reversible brainfuck treats it as a side-effect outside the world
18:36:38 <scarf> as in, state of the realWorld is irrelevant in what's reversible, all that matters is that the effect on the tape is reversible
18:37:00 <cpressey> (there was supposed to be a "s in the" in that sentence)
18:38:48 <scarf> feather, which is reversiblible, is going to have some sort of I/O-equivalence thing in which unproducing then reproducing output is a NOP, but producing different output tries to erase the output produced so far and produce different output
18:38:52 <scarf> and some similar trick for input
18:39:09 <scarf> but that's way down the line, I have enough problems trying to prevent infinite recursion in the first place
18:39:48 <cpressey> scarf: OK. I'm thinking of adding interative I/O to Burro 2, is all, and was wondering.
18:40:21 <scarf> I don't think there's a standard method
18:40:48 <cpressey> It's not hard, because it can just delay all I/O operations until the end of the current iteration. If there was an "un-I/O" operation before the iteration ends, well, it doesn't happen.
18:42:51 <scarf> what if you branch conditionally on input, then uninput?
18:45:52 <cpressey> unbranch (on the same condition) and re-input, and ultimately re-uninput again? I'm more worried now what uninput without a corresponding input means.
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18:46:38 <cpressey> Wait, you can only branch conditionally on input if the input was from the previous loop iteration. So no problem there, I think.
18:46:58 <cpressey> At the start of the loop, you have no idea where your tape values came from anyway.
18:49:35 <cpressey> An uninput without input can just increment a counter saying "Ignore the next n input operations"
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19:07:15 <scarf> yes, but tired and not really concentrating
19:07:15 <AnMaster> scarf, iirc you are on karmic? no?
19:07:26 <AnMaster> scarf, is it reasonably usable/stable yet?
19:07:32 <AnMaster> the ext4 bug was recently closed
19:07:42 <AnMaster> it may be time to migrate unless there are other huge issues
19:07:52 <scarf> AnMaster: mostly: the main issue for me is that pulseaudio's ALSA emulation is buggy
19:08:11 <scarf> normally it works, but occasionally it causes processes that use it to consume 100% CPU and be unkillable except with -9
19:08:29 <scarf> no, it's using pulse, which emulates alsa for programs that aren't written against pulse
19:08:32 <scarf> which is almost everything
19:08:38 <AnMaster> scarf, but the kernel uses alsa?
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19:11:59 <AnMaster> scarf, did you have that problem in jaunty?
19:12:15 <AnMaster> if not, how many are having the issue (I assume that there is a relevant bug report about this issue?)
19:12:32 <scarf> AnMaster: I haven't reported it yet, I must get around to that sometime
19:12:39 <scarf> it's becoming harder to reproduce as time goes on
19:12:52 <scarf> as in, it's always been intermittent, but it seems to happen a lower and lower proportion of the time
19:13:09 <lament> birth rates go down all over the developed world
19:13:26 <AnMaster> lament, how is that related to alsa?
19:13:37 <lament> <scarf> it's becoming harder to reproduce as time goes on
19:14:35 <scarf> woah, kipple was last seen 1159 days ago? I'm relatively sure I remember being in here at the same time as them once
19:14:37 <AnMaster> scarf, funny, my karmic VM just complained that the virtualbox network was using a .local domain
19:14:49 <scarf> and how long does that mean I've been here?
19:15:28 -!- pikhq has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 5 days since last alise sighting | 7 days since last ehird sighting | 17 days since last calamari sighting | 206 days since ast graue sighting | 1160 days since last kipple sighting | 2226 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2583 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:17:32 <AnMaster> I quite like how the only possible value for the first one is
19:17:51 <pikhq> Possible *valid* value.
19:18:05 <scarf> I hadn't realised that until you pointed it out, how beautifully esoteric
19:18:24 <AnMaster> scarf, also then I should point out that it was I that added that bit first
19:19:15 <scarf> it reminds me of the file-accessed timestamp on Windows
19:19:31 <scarf> which, at least if you try to view it the usual way (via right-click | properties), involves accessing the file
19:22:44 <scarf> so you just get the current time
19:23:31 <AnMaster> Wikipedia article on the "TLD" .local: "Despite not being a valid top-level domain in the Internet, considerable DNS traffic exists, querying the local domain in the public Domain Name System. In June 2009, the L root server received more than 400 such queries per second, ranking 4th in DNS traffic of all TLDs behind COM, ARPA, and NET."
19:25:00 <pikhq> There's some really buggy DNS servers out there, apparently.
19:30:27 <AnMaster> http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=255
19:31:22 <AnMaster> http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=38 <-- and A6 queries still too
19:32:00 <AnMaster> .lan also shows up on the PTR query graph
19:32:18 <AnMaster> http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=12
19:32:46 <AnMaster> and I wonder tld .belkin is...
19:33:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh there are A queries for the tld .invalid
19:33:10 <AnMaster> http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=1
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19:53:09 <Ilari> And Y29tJw==? That's base64 for "com'" and Y2FcIA==, which seems to be "ca\ "...
19:53:54 <Ilari> And there is Base64 for "org/" as well.
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20:05:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, the main stats are at http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root
20:05:35 <AnMaster> okay the NS graph is funny too
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20:37:36 <Ilari> And A6 records? Who uses them?
20:39:28 <Ilari> I thought A6 was obsoleted by AAAA ("Quad-A") records.
20:41:05 -!- alise has joined.
20:41:10 <alise> This is Dispatch 2.
20:41:48 -!- pikhq has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 0 days since last alise sighting | 7 days since last ehird sighting | 17 days since last calamari sighting | 206 days since ast graue sighting | 1160 days since last kipple sighting | 2226 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2583 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:41:49 <MissPiggy> alise lol I tried to code my expression problem in agda and got bored because it turned out hard
20:42:56 <Sgeo> I was supposed to remind you of something, but I forgot. On a completely unrelated note, I believe graphs of light can be utilized to facilitate the relocation of certain sentient objects.
20:43:02 <pikhq> alise: Any new suck?
20:43:08 <alise> I did not see you last weekend; did you receive my email?
20:43:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: That something was "Get passport photo".
20:43:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, I know.
20:43:38 <Sgeo> Read the "unrelated note"
20:44:08 <alise> scarf: I am ehird, by the way.
20:44:18 <pikhq> I'm back to studying Japanese. Whoo.
20:44:25 <scarf> alise: ah, and I did get your email
20:44:34 <pikhq> ... Well. I'm being lazy on it today. XD
20:44:35 <scarf> I wasn't sure if you were someone I already knew, or not
20:44:47 <scarf> I don't have your whole IP memorised, and you've replaced your whois
20:45:09 <AnMaster> <Ilari> I thought A6 was obsoleted by AAAA ("Quad-A") records. <-- correct
20:45:12 <alise> So you know, then, of the situation.
20:45:19 <scarf> alise: trying to fly under the radar? or just fancying a change of name?
20:45:45 <alise> Just fancied it. Why shouldn't I be allowed to confuse people as to my gender!
20:46:00 <scarf> meh, I manage that pretty effectively when I'm trying to hide it
20:46:11 <alise> My mother saw a practitioner of law (what, they could be googling) a few days ago. Apparently at first glance their chances of sectioning me are somewhere in the vicinity of nil, but that's not an Official Legal Opinion for a while.
20:46:20 <scarf> sometimes you can get a whole channel apologising to you on the assumption that you're actually female and they've just offended you
20:46:42 <scarf> alise: I actually started approaching this from a nomic angle
20:46:45 <alise> scarf: oh, but "alise" is rather overtly feminine and I've been using female pronouns for no particular reason other than havoc, confusion and finally wrecking the English language's gender-pronoun system once and for all
20:46:56 <alise> scarf: also, that's hardly surprising. you do that to everything :P
20:47:02 <pikhq> alise: They can, however, make life hell for you.
20:47:12 <alise> pikhq: not if I don't a-t-t to the e-n-d.
20:47:23 <alise> Yes indeed, AT&T should be a temporary fixture, not an everlasting thing!
20:47:27 <alise> I say to all the googlers. Cough.
20:47:32 <alise> pikhq: Concatenate, sir! Concatenate.
20:48:07 <scarf> depriving people of internet access was ruled to be a human rights violation in France, by the way
20:48:15 <pikhq> Alas. If they're just bluffing, then yes, there's jack they can do if you deny them such things.
20:48:42 <alise> scarf: that's great. I'll just relocate to France and then put myself in the same situation again :)
20:49:03 <scarf> yep, not quite useful enough, I was hoping it would be an EU-wide precedent
20:49:52 <alise> Also, I would technically be allowed to the internet, were I to bring my own laptop (although they have no Wi-Fi it could be plugged into Ethernet) or my own 3G connection, but if the former it would be censored, and either way one of the nurses would have to be in the room, monitoring it.
20:50:14 <alise> So even if it was EU-wide they'd be obeying the letter and flagellating the spirit to death.
20:50:27 <alise> Poor precedent-ghasts.
20:50:41 <scarf> hmm, having a human there defeats all the usual methods of defeating filters
20:50:55 <scarf> well, not directly, but in a soft-security sort of way
20:50:58 <AnMaster> alise, so I guess you can move abroad?
20:51:11 <alise> I could do that even if they could section me.
20:51:14 <scarf> I wonder if there's any way to evade filters steganographically
20:51:18 <alise> I move abroad, the UK government cannot touch me.
20:51:29 <scarf> being mentally ill isn't even illegal...
20:51:37 <alise> But not obeying a sectioning is.
20:51:41 <alise> That is their threat.
20:51:45 <scarf> yep, nice loophole there
20:51:51 <alise> Delivered to me, clearly, personally: attend, or you will be sectioned.
20:52:09 <alise> So there are two options: put them in a position where they cannot section me - i.e. move; or discover that they cannot section me.
20:52:11 <AnMaster> alise, well, why not move abroad next weekend or so?
20:52:25 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, that sounds lovely and easy.
20:52:41 <scarf> AnMaster: you can't just randomly decide to go abroad permanently, especially given alise's likely resources
20:52:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not being in the Schengen zone, he needs a passport.
20:52:54 <alise> scarf: Moving is one of the options being pursued, though.
20:53:06 <alise> We moved into Ovington recently, so we have little ties to the location.
20:53:18 <scarf> alise: there's always the third option, of getting the media involved
20:53:21 <pikhq> scarf: He's a European citizen. Makes it easy.
20:53:34 <scarf> it's an incredibly risky operation for all sides of the argument, though
20:53:40 <alise> scarf: I have considered and rejected that because of the risk.
20:53:56 <alise> scarf: My mother is mentally ill (what it is I will not say, at least in public) and this stemmed from her being treated for that.
20:54:11 <alise> If you want the press on your side - at least the press that makes any difference, i.e. the awful press - you need to be spotless.
20:54:13 <scarf> ok, I don't want to know the details
20:54:22 <alise> So, that's almost certainly going to fail.
20:54:24 <alise> And I don't want publicity.
20:54:29 <scarf> and that's a great characterisation of the media
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20:54:42 <alise> scarf: Are you not British?!
20:54:45 <scarf> and the reason I correct that is not because of some stupid spelling ridiculousness
20:54:46 <Sgeo> What's a tcsavage?
20:54:51 <Sgeo> Are you turing complete?
20:55:06 <scarf> but because I've been writing in Java recently, and have a huge number of method names ending -ize and class names ending -izer
20:55:13 <scarf> and wanted to standardise on one spelling
20:55:20 <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:55:22 <scarf> which is the one that the library already used
20:55:43 <scarf> besides, there are arguments that -ize is correct in British English too, and that -ise is a neologism
20:55:53 <alise> I don't mind what English you use.
20:55:59 <scarf> and I talk in a strange mix of British and American English on the Internet
20:56:00 <alise> Omit Us, go ahead.
20:56:03 <scarf> and occasionally Perl
20:56:05 <alise> It doesn't really matter.
20:56:27 <alise> I put in the Us and mostly use -ise because I was brought up that way, but it doesn't really bother me at all either way.
20:56:47 <scarf> "gray" vs. "grey" is another good one
20:56:50 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Not being in the Schengen zone, he needs a passport. <-- err, isn't that basically EU?
20:56:58 <AnMaster> but you say that UK isn't part of it?
20:56:58 <scarf> AnMaster: minus UK
20:57:07 <alise> AnMaster: plus some other stuff
20:57:10 <scarf> you need a passport to leave the UK by plane, at least
20:57:12 <alise> AnMaster: because the UK is a major international player
20:57:14 <scarf> probably Ireland too
20:57:15 <alise> and we like keeping our distance from the EU
20:57:21 <alise> tcsavage: no infinite memory.
20:57:24 <scarf> or you could catch a ferry to Northern Island, then walk across the border
20:57:30 <cpressey> <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love <-- brilliant
20:57:34 <scarf> how did I manage that?
20:57:41 <alise> AnMaster: But it is convenient, because of the rights we get.
20:57:51 <alise> If we can get a residence in any EU country, we're allowed there.
20:57:51 <scarf> `quote <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:57:58 <scarf> umm, what's the syntax?
20:58:00 <alise> We just have to go up to them and say, yo, we're here, and that's pretty much it.
20:58:02 <scarf> `qdb <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:58:08 <scarf> `addquote <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:58:09 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:58:13 <alise> Also, Reversi/Othello is a really nice game.
20:58:20 <Slereah> Do we have a quote database here?
20:58:22 <AnMaster> alise, the other way doesn't work?
20:58:35 <alise> Slereah: HackEgo's, aye.
20:58:37 <scarf> more fun, EU-internal flights you get to avoid customs
20:58:40 <alise> I think Sgeo maintains a text version.
20:58:42 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:58:55 <alise> the schengen agreement is sweet
20:59:02 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can find it
20:59:13 <Slereah> !swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:59:17 <EgoBot> I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a
20:59:20 <Slereah> `swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:59:22 <HackEgo> I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a
20:59:26 <Slereah> `swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love.
20:59:27 <HackEgo> I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a. \ Bork Bork Bork!
20:59:31 <scarf> is that algorithm deterministic?
20:59:35 <scarf> ah, apparently not
20:59:43 <Sgeo> http://188.8.131.52/sgeo/quotes.txt
20:59:49 <Slereah> The bork is trigerred by the dot, scarf
20:59:57 <alise> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
20:59:57 <alise> 2|<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
21:00:00 <alise> A story in two quotes.
21:00:17 <scarf> meanwhile, does anyone happen to know of a bz2 implementation in Java that's licenced under a non-insane open source licence (i.e. GPL2 or GPL3 compatible)?
21:00:26 <scarf> my guess is no, but it can't hurt to ask
21:00:29 <Slereah> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/7222508/Palestinians-dressed-as-the-Navi-from-the-film-Avatar-stage-a-protest-against-Israels-separation-barrier.html
21:00:37 <scarf> (if you're wondering why, I'm writing the most overengineered ttyrec player ever)
21:00:56 <alise> AnMaster: Moving will work, it's just not as simple as you think.
21:00:57 <AnMaster> alise, as in, an European can come to UK and settle down
21:01:06 <Sgeo> It updates every 30min or so
21:01:15 <AnMaster> alise, really? It should work both ways to be fair
21:01:15 <scarf> alise: IIRC, yes but they don't get benefits, etc, unless they get a job
21:01:29 <alise> The UK basically gets what they want from the EU and ignores the rest, whatever the tabloids say
21:01:33 <alise> AnMaster: politics isn't.
21:01:42 <scarf> alise: the UK came off /incredibly/ well from the recent EU treaties
21:01:42 <alise> and the UK is powerful enough to do it
21:01:59 <alise> "125th Barbie: Computer Engineer Barbie"
21:02:05 <alise> WHY AM I SO EXCITED ABOUT THIS?
21:02:12 <alise> (Interwebs, voting, etc.)
21:02:14 <AnMaster> <scarf> (if you're wondering why, I'm writing the most overengineered ttyrec player ever) <-- why not use JNI?
21:02:21 <scarf> ooh, my todo list is still on pastebin.ca http://pastebin.ca/1794648
21:02:22 <alise> http://www.barbiemedia.com/admin/uploads/ComputerEngineerBarbie.pdf
21:02:28 -!- MizardX- has joined.
21:02:37 <alise> scarf: do you realise that the kind of people who use ttyrec won't use a Java program? :P
21:02:38 <scarf> AnMaster: since when did all platforms that support Java have a ttyrec library installed by default?
21:02:50 <AnMaster> scarf, bz2 library I meant....
21:02:53 <scarf> alise: empirical evidence contradicts your statement
21:03:01 <alise> scarf: Sample size?
21:03:05 <scarf> alise: about 4, tbh
21:03:15 <alise> Running the .jar is sort-of awkward in many OSes, including mine. Is there a way to get it working like a program
21:03:15 <alise> written in some other language? .jnlp is nice for evaluation, but doesn't leave the program installed.
21:03:20 <alise> ^ this is where Java starts giving you hell
21:03:26 <alise> it's possible, but you'll hate life
21:03:33 <alise> I suspect you'll give up on Java at some point
21:03:46 <scarf> my solution is to write the program as a jnlp | javac | gcj polyglot
21:03:53 <scarf> AnMaster: Java Network Launch Protocol, used by Java Web Start
21:04:06 <Slereah> If I was a computer engineer
21:04:07 * Sgeo should be doing homework nowish
21:04:08 <scarf> for some reason, Sun decided that the standard method of packaging Java programs came free with automatic updates
21:04:11 <Slereah> I wouldn't wear that dress
21:04:16 <Slereah> I mean, I have a linux shirt
21:04:29 <Slereah> http://www.barbiemedia.com/admin/uploads/ComputerEngineerBarbie.pdf
21:04:32 <scarf> I don't see why people should have to trust me in particular to run a program I write, they should just have to trust its source code
21:04:42 <scarf> ofc, in practice the two are pretty much identical, but I'm too idealistic to admit that
21:04:57 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:04:58 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
21:05:02 <Sgeo> AnMaster, alise linked to it
21:05:30 <alise> scarf: you should package it as a .jar
21:05:44 <alise> AnMaster: what, is it *wrong* to promote computer engineering now? :)
21:05:44 <scarf> alise: that's what I'm doing atm
21:05:49 <alise> barbie does every other career, you know
21:05:53 <scarf> and I'm working to remove library dependencies atm
21:05:57 <alise> scarf: you write a shell script to find where you are and java -jar it
21:06:01 <alise> with -classpath containing all your dependencies
21:06:02 <scarf> mostly because I'm hardly using any features of it
21:06:09 <alise> (have /usr/lib/somethingplay/(stuff))
21:06:19 <scarf> the idea's to have no dependencies outside the jar itself; this isn't deliberate, it just kind-of happened
21:06:35 <scarf> on a nice side-note, by default netbeans links in lgpl libraries to your project, but doesn't include their sources
21:06:47 <scarf> meaning it's illegal to distribute the resulting program without chasing their source
21:06:51 <AnMaster> alise, no, just that is so unrealistic. I mean, there are female CS students at the university I'm at. One of them wore an ubuntu jacket today I noticed.
21:07:04 <alise> Barbie, UNREALISTIC?!
21:07:08 <AnMaster> and very definitely not *pink*
21:07:22 <alise> there are girl-chic computer scientists
21:07:34 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, it is too pink. That is promoting gender differences or something.
21:07:56 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/2003-06-Ada_Lovelace.jpg
21:07:59 <alise> AnMaster: I think any feminist would agree that women have the right to wear whatever the hell they like :P
21:08:08 <scarf> according to QI, which is a UK quiz show based around questions where the obvious answer is false, traditionally blue was for girls and pink for boys, but it swapped somewhere in history
21:08:10 <alise> lovelace was sweet.
21:09:30 <Slereah> I've seen an actual photo of her
21:09:42 <Slereah> But it was in her cancer period so she doesn't look that pretty
21:09:53 <Sgeo> I didn't know she had cancer
21:11:07 <alise> 22:17:00 <coppro> Haskell is a language that curries functions
21:11:08 <alise> 22:17:09 <coppro> Haskell is named for Haskell Curry
21:11:08 <alise> 22:17:15 <coppro> currying is named for Haskell Curry
21:11:12 <Sgeo> I'd love QI more if it were easier for me to watch
21:11:14 <alise> Well they named it Haskell because of Haskell Curry, obviously
21:11:27 <Sgeo> alise, preferably no BitTorrent
21:11:33 <scarf> oh, one thing that worries me a lot; the more I use Java, the more I discover similarities to Haskell in it
21:11:39 <Sgeo> YouTube if possible
21:11:39 <alise> "(Maybe it is because the TAVSYS file stores string using Baudot?)" --zzo38
21:11:46 <alise> Sgeo: man up and bittorrent
21:11:49 <cpressey> They named it Hakell after Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver!
21:11:49 <Slereah> http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/BigPictures/Lovelace_3.jpeg
21:11:57 <scarf> I suppose that's because without using it, you couldn't possibly imagine the languages were remotely similar
21:12:03 <Sgeo> I'm always under the impression that I'll get caught if I BitTorrent
21:12:05 <alise> Slereah: I'd curry her function.
21:12:09 <cpressey> They might have even named it Haskell for that reason
21:12:21 <scarf> anyway, teaching Java's my day job, so I may as well get at least half-decent at it
21:13:45 <cpressey> scarf: And what has Java learned so far from you?
21:14:07 <alise> cpressey: I did *not* come back from that place to experience puns as bad.
21:14:10 <scarf> cpressey: /me thinks
21:14:49 <scarf> oh, that was a pun?
21:14:51 <cpressey> alise: I blame oerjan and lament for setting the atmosphere
21:14:57 * scarf continues thinking
21:15:31 <MissPiggy> I don't have that programmery-thing anymore
21:15:37 <MissPiggy> the one where you actually write programs
21:16:35 <alise> MissPiggy: I sort of do, but it's constantly plagued with "this would be so much better in /my/ language".
21:16:42 <alise> I expect it to pick up again soon.
21:17:02 <Sgeo> I'm in a C++ class. I'm dealing with C# recently.
21:17:10 <Sgeo> And now I'm looking into Haskell again
21:17:16 <Sgeo> That feeling is pretty much a constant
21:17:35 <scarf> alise: I'm getting pretty good at just language-hopping, recently
21:17:55 <scarf> I suppose the benefit of working on esolangs so much is that when you get the impulse "this would be so much better in feather", you can just ignore it
21:19:17 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: I think any feminist would agree that women have the right to wear whatever the hell they like :P <-- true
21:19:48 <AnMaster> alise, my point was that barbie in general seems... overly pink. Not a varied selection there.
21:19:52 <scarf> AnMaster: men too?
21:20:22 <AnMaster> scarf, hm? Is this some reference to skin colour of Europeans?
21:20:40 <alise> AnMaster: because little girls tend to like pink. Call it society or inherent, or whatever you want.
21:20:44 <scarf> I mean, would any feminist agree that men have the right to wear whatever the hell they like?
21:21:10 <AnMaster> alise, yes, and I think society encourages it. At least it doesn't seem to try to be neutral about it
21:21:21 <AnMaster> scarf, I have no idea. Ask alise.
21:21:38 <alise> Not any feminist but all the sane ones.
21:21:48 <alise> Sane feminism nowadays is an alias for someone who supports equality.
21:21:58 <alise> But if you go further you get, well, S.C.U.M. Manifesto.
21:22:17 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not familiar with that
21:22:20 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto
21:22:29 <AnMaster> oh damn you, for once you provide a link!
21:25:07 <MissPiggy> | ______________|||___|__|__|) -|- (@)@)""""""**|(@)(@)**|(@) / \
21:26:51 <AnMaster> that doesn't even line up in monospace...
21:27:00 <scarf> AnMaster: it lines up in proportional to start with
21:27:04 <scarf> but messes up towards the end
21:27:20 <AnMaster> scarf, eh? well the first | lines up yes
21:27:25 <scarf> I once saw a massively complex table designed to line up in proportional that used ` and ' for spacing
21:27:42 <AnMaster> that would only work for a given font
21:27:54 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, but most of them have approximately similar metrics
21:27:57 <AnMaster> scarf, and what was the context of that table?
21:28:05 <scarf> AnMaster: it was in a forum post on GameFAQs
21:28:46 <AnMaster> scarf, approx similar metrics sure, but small differences would result in large differences near the end of the line
21:29:03 <AnMaster> since they would basically add up in the long run
21:29:05 <scarf> not really, the font size was very small
21:29:16 <scarf> sufficiently so that ' was one pixel plus one pixel of spacing
21:29:23 <scarf> and ` was two pixels plus one pixel of spacing
21:29:31 <AnMaster> then was the actual text in that table readable?
21:30:02 <scarf> this was back in the days before antialiasing was common, and where pixels were large enough to be visible
21:30:19 <scarf> same font size, a typical capital letter was maybe five or six pixels wide
21:30:23 <AnMaster> was just going to suggest getting a high dpi monitor ;P
21:30:40 <AnMaster> scarf, iirc gamefaqs uses monospaces
21:30:53 <AnMaster> at least it did yesterday when I checked some walkthrough for a game I was stuck in
21:30:53 <scarf> AnMaster: for the FAQs; not in the forum posts though
21:30:58 <alise> Actual GameFAQs thingies are just text files.
21:31:16 <scarf> it's sometimes more informative than the FAQs themselves
21:31:17 <AnMaster> (btw I think it was paper mario for n64)
21:31:24 <scarf> because it's moderated by different people
21:31:34 <alise> GameFAQs' forums are interesting, mostly because of LUE lore
21:31:35 <scarf> and people post rejected FAQs to the forums, and if the mods there like them they get stickied
21:31:39 <alise> not that i've ever read them
21:31:43 <alise> just articles *about* them
21:31:47 <alise> AnMaster: It's COMPLICATED!
21:31:58 <AnMaster> alise, sure, but what does it mean?
21:32:04 <scarf> so you have two independent sources of FAQs on the same website
21:32:08 <alise> That, that is also complicated.
21:32:33 <alise> Basically, uh, it's a board or was a board or something on GameFAQs.
21:32:54 <alise> Life, the Universe, and Everything, and basically you had to have a lot of ... RPG-esque stats to get in there, basically. And then it sprung off into tons of other thing and glorious drama blah blah.
21:32:57 <alise> It's not that interesting, I guess.
21:33:58 <AnMaster> why does almost every nintendo game contain at least one or two points where you have to do something so non-obvious that there is no way to figure it out without a walkthrough
21:34:16 <cpressey> AnMaster: Gotta sell those copies of Nintendo Power magazine
21:34:28 <scarf> AnMaster: pokemon doesn't, AFAIK
21:34:37 <AnMaster> cpressey, don't they realise people just check gamefaqs? ;)
21:34:43 <AnMaster> scarf, ah maybe, never played those
21:34:57 <AnMaster> forgot what the tricky thing was
21:35:30 <AnMaster> scarf, so, maybe we should say "every rpg or adventure game"
21:35:50 <AnMaster> though there were a few weird ones in mario 64 and such too
21:36:39 <alise> Nintendo Power is older than GameFAQs. :P
21:36:42 <scarf> I needed spoilers for the bit in mario 64 where you have to zoom in and change the camera angle, to trigger you teleporting
21:36:57 <AnMaster> scarf, would that be the flying cap thingy?
21:37:11 <scarf> AnMaster: yep (or just the cap switch generally in the DS version)
21:37:14 <AnMaster> well yes, that was quite tricky
21:37:21 <AnMaster> scarf, there is just one cap switch there?
21:37:37 <scarf> yes, the locations of the other two were changed to have a couple of stars instead
21:37:45 <AnMaster> also, I wasn't aware of that they ported it to DS
21:37:51 <scarf> and there's a multiple-characters thing instead, which has new levels
21:38:04 <AnMaster> scarf, did they fix the bad camera control when they ported it?
21:38:13 <AnMaster> also, didn't they have to lose some of those stars
21:38:19 <scarf> it's not awful in the port, but I'm not sure what it was like originally
21:38:21 <scarf> and there are more starts
21:38:33 <AnMaster> scarf, but what about metal and vanish caps?
21:38:37 <scarf> instead of flying cap as mario, vanish cap as mario, metal cap as mario
21:38:47 <scarf> it's flower as mario, flower as luigi, flower as wario
21:39:00 <scarf> and the cap switch creates blocks that drop flowers
21:39:03 <AnMaster> scarf, that means some of the stars must have been relocated
21:39:13 <AnMaster> since they depended on the caps to be reachable
21:39:22 <scarf> AnMaster: you can still get all three cap effects
21:39:24 <AnMaster> like, you had to fly, or use the metal
21:39:26 <scarf> just you get them a different way
21:39:55 <pikhq> scarf: The cap switches are entirely optional, y'know.
21:39:59 <AnMaster> It doesn't make sense in that game
21:40:15 <scarf> pikhq: in the original, yes; in the sequel, no
21:40:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, err really? No that wouldn't work for the first level where you have to pass through those rings of coins
21:40:24 <pikhq> Wait, they made it required?
21:40:27 <scarf> well, you don't have to hit the switch
21:40:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, maybe you need all coins?
21:40:36 <scarf> but you do have to release at least Mario, which is sort-of the equivalent of hitting a switch
21:40:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: You don't have to get all the stars.
21:40:55 <scarf> you can leave luigi and wario locked up all game, though, I did on my first playthrough
21:41:02 <alise> 01:02:08 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc <<< this is just tree rewriting
21:41:09 <AnMaster> scarf, err, how do you start playing as then?
21:41:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: 70 stars to beat the game.
21:41:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: There are 120 stars *in* the game.
21:41:28 <scarf> AnMaster: you start as Yoshi, obviously
21:41:36 <AnMaster> scarf, what? Not in the original
21:41:37 <scarf> pikhq: the numbers were bumped to 90 and 150 for the DS port, IIRC
21:41:42 <AnMaster> scarf, in the original you start as mario
21:41:48 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, I'm describing a port with some enhanced features
21:42:03 <scarf> if it was a straight port, it wouldn't have sold as well as a port with some extra levels
21:42:07 <AnMaster> scarf, s/enhanced/totally wrecked/
21:42:07 -!- Slereah has quit.
21:42:16 <scarf> AnMaster: what makes you think that?
21:42:22 <pikhq> Also, the metal cap doesn't really need a FAQ to get.
21:42:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:42:33 <AnMaster> scarf, some extra levels sure, but what I'm finding an issue with is changing the playing character so completely
21:42:40 <pikhq> It's in a level where the vanish cap is useful.
21:42:45 <scarf> err, most of the controls are the same
21:43:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I found the vanish cap without problems. And, You mean "where the metal cap is useful"
21:43:03 <scarf> replacing mario's 3d model with yoshi's isn't a massive change
21:43:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Erm, right.
21:43:23 <scarf> and the characters are mostly similar, apart from each has a few moves the others don't
21:43:24 <pikhq> Really, it's just the wing cap that's a "guide dang it" sort of thing.
21:43:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually I found that one by pure chance, I wanted to check what the odd white column in the emulator was
21:44:01 <pikhq> "WTF is with the light from the roof?"
21:44:03 <AnMaster> because it didn't draw it properly
21:44:07 <scarf> AnMaster: mario is the only one who can wall-kick; yoshi can't punch (swallowing enemies instead); luigi's backflips last ages; wario's punches are super-powerful
21:44:11 <AnMaster> in the game it isn't as visible normally
21:44:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Heheheh.
21:44:14 <scarf> that's about it for the differences, though
21:44:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it's pretty darned visible.
21:44:27 <pikhq> As a column of light.
21:44:32 <scarf> oh, yoshi can fly to some extent, but not very far
21:44:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, not *soild white column* though
21:44:52 <pikhq> It looks like a sunbeam, not a white column.
21:44:57 <pikhq> In which Mario is standing.
21:45:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know, they fixed that bug later in mupen64plus iirc
21:45:18 <scarf> if you press A while standing there, you get a message saying "mario... hello..." or something like that
21:45:20 <AnMaster> it looks like a sunbeam on modern versions
21:45:24 <cpressey> alise: oklopol, Defcalc, tree rewriting, Slereah likes trees, or something
21:45:42 <AnMaster> scarf, fly? how does that even make any sense
21:45:47 <alise> Right, yes, I was just telling oklopol to shut his foo because it's still a nice language.
21:45:52 <scarf> AnMaster: it's more gliding
21:45:59 <AnMaster> cpressey, I like trees too. Nature is fun.
21:46:05 <scarf> basically, if you hold down jump, you go up for a bit before going down
21:46:13 <scarf> and you can move for that time
21:46:31 <pikhq> Mupen64plus now emulates that game 100% perfectly.
21:46:33 <AnMaster> scarf, I mean, Yoshi isn't very aerodynamic really!
21:46:37 <scarf> AnMaster: he has wings?
21:46:56 <scarf> little stubby ones that rather restrict flying, but enough to keep him in the air for a bit
21:46:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's just what Yoshi does.
21:47:06 <pikhq> He does it in all the games in which Yoshi is playable.
21:47:17 <AnMaster> hm, I haven't played many games with yoshi in
21:47:30 <pikhq> Never played Mario World?
21:48:08 <scarf> pikhq: the super mario 64 ds version is more like one continuous jump than a double-jump
21:48:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, mario world, maybe. SNES?
21:48:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, and boring plus rather hard
21:48:47 <AnMaster> I prefer RPGs mostly actually.
21:49:07 <alise> yoshi's sort of gliding thing is fun
21:49:20 <alise> because in yoshi island ds, and maybe the original it's based on too, it sounds and looks like he's desperately taking a dump
21:49:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: SNES. And one of the greatest platformers.
21:49:27 <alise> which makes him flutter up momentarily
21:49:31 <alise> HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
21:49:33 <pikhq> (also one of the easier ones)
21:49:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, mario 64 is way better (apart from the camera of course)
21:49:51 <pikhq> Mario 64 is as good.
21:49:53 <alise> Super Mario Bros 1, bitches.
21:49:54 <scarf> in the DS version, you mostly just use R as a camera control
21:50:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, I'm good at mario 64. I suck at mario world
21:50:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: How can you suck at it?
21:50:14 <alise> DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DAH--duh. Duh duh duh, da duh duh duh duh duh dah dah dah dah dah duh dah duh
21:50:26 <scarf> the camera stays in much the same angle while it's released, swings behind you when it's pressed
21:50:31 <pikhq> Infinite powerups and trivial one-ups!
21:50:36 <cpressey> alise: How 'bout just Mario Bros?
21:50:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can try again. Forever.
21:51:15 <alise> cpressey: boring arcade-ish game imo
21:51:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can go back to the level.
21:51:23 <alise> (also, how 'bout just donkey kong?!)
21:51:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, I hate time limits
21:51:38 <pikhq> If you run out of lives, you fail at gaming forever.
21:51:40 <alise> i never really run into SMB's time limmits
21:51:48 <alise> I run out of lives in SMB1 all the time though :)
21:52:07 <pikhq> (to get a 1-up, kill the Koopa Troopas at the start of 1-1 and exit the level)
21:52:07 <cpressey> alise: How 'bout that little-known, hand-held LCD-screen game, "Mario's Cement Factory"? Now that's retro.
21:52:18 <scarf> cpressey: I know it
21:52:31 <scarf> alise: there's an infinite loop near the start of 1-1
21:52:42 <scarf> where you can get an extra life, get a coin, then die
21:52:49 <cpressey> I only remember it vaguely from an issue of Electronic Gaming from the 80's
21:52:49 <scarf> and respawn where you can repeat the process
21:52:56 <alise> cpressey: you were so amazed it wasn't even a ?
21:53:00 <alise> it was just a ! question
21:53:10 <scarf> cpressey: I've even seen one of the original game&watch games, and even played it, although I'm not sure it was that one in particular
21:53:15 <alise> scarf: let's confuse you: I'm using Linux, and like the typography and fonts
21:53:23 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Gw_donkeykong_trans.png
21:53:29 <alise> handheld nintendo console with two screens
21:53:33 <cpressey> Wait, that should have been: alise: Yes?
21:53:36 <alise> and a dpad, and some buttons
21:53:54 <AnMaster> hm "game & watch"? never heard about that before
21:54:02 <alise> AnMaster: thou art luckey.
21:54:08 <AnMaster> also, strange there is a super mario wiki
21:54:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Play more Smash Bros.
21:54:14 <scarf> AnMaster: dates from before games consoles were capable of running more than one game
21:54:16 <scarf> and how is that strange?
21:54:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, what? the fighting games?
21:54:42 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Gamewatch_mariobros_open.JPG IT'S JUST LIKE A BOOK
21:54:59 <alise> let's see if we can all agree on one game being great
21:55:06 <scarf> alise: which version?
21:55:15 <alise> uh, I mainly play double dash, the gamecube one
21:55:22 <scarf> I've actually played all but the Gamecube and Wii ones
21:55:28 <pikhq> That was the best one, IMO.
21:55:30 <alise> I've played the DS one
21:55:34 <alise> the wii one is also rubbish
21:55:36 <alise> the steering is wonky
21:55:38 <alise> really hard to steer precisely
21:55:43 <pikhq> All the console ones were good.
21:55:44 <alise> just seems really fuzzy, not enough mario karty
21:55:47 <pikhq> Not played the portable ones.
21:55:50 <alise> especially with the wheel
21:55:53 <alise> the wheel is worse than useless
21:55:54 <scarf> although, I was too young to understand when I was playing the SNES version; I played it in a supermarket creche while my parents were shopping
21:55:56 <Sgeo> Why am I interested in Muppets right now?
21:56:00 <scarf> and never figured otu the controls
21:56:07 <alise> huh, the original mario kart came out in 1992?
21:56:09 <scarf> the DS one is rather broken, and I dislike the level design
21:56:09 <pikhq> alise: Play it with a Gamecube controller.
21:56:14 <alise> I thought 64 was the latest one
21:56:19 <AnMaster> I don't like that genre either
21:56:20 <alise> pikhq: I might as well just play the gamecube version
21:56:22 <alise> the graphics are sharper
21:56:23 <alise> AnMaster: well, die.
21:56:25 <scarf> the N64 one was fun, if a little prone to random explosions
21:56:29 * alise throws a blue shell at AnMaster
21:56:31 <scarf> and had some great level design
21:56:35 <alise> I've actually dodged a blue shell before!
21:56:36 <pikhq> alise: Yeah. The Gamecube one is better.
21:56:48 <alise> One way I know is sure-fire, and the other way was the luckiest fluke ever.
21:56:51 <alise> Can't reproduce the latter.
21:56:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: <3 Mario RPG.
21:56:59 <scarf> the GBA one is rather neat too, they managed to balance the items well and the battle mode is great
21:57:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about paper mario? It is quite nice
21:57:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not played it.
21:57:42 <pikhq> I only own one console, BTW.
21:57:57 <pikhq> Ah. Haven't played it, but I probably have the ROM.
21:57:58 <AnMaster> thus I can't play anything newer than n64
21:58:14 <alise> the sure-fire way, btw, is to go up a blasting tunnel - like in Daisy Cruiser's longcut or D.K. Mountain - while it locks on to you
21:58:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, use glide64 to get anything usable in mupen64plus for it
21:58:17 <pikhq> I picked up a backwards-compatible PS3 recently.
21:58:25 <alise> it will "hit" you in the air, though you won't see it, and it'll have no effect
21:58:25 -!- jcp has joined.
21:58:29 <alise> of course, you need to time it rather well...
21:58:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Already do; couldn't get Mario 64 working otherwise.
21:58:53 <pikhq> And, well. It's freaking Mario 64.
21:58:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, glide64 is the only decently working video plugin for most games
21:59:11 <scarf> alise: doesn't work in the DS version, btw, it falls back while you blast, and catches up to you afterwards
21:59:22 <alise> scarf: pah, other people have tried this!
21:59:24 <alise> I am not so special
21:59:30 <pikhq> Best 3D Mario game. :)
21:59:31 <scarf> in the DS version, a skilled player can set off a power-slide turbo boost at an exact moment to dodge it, but I'm not that good
21:59:56 <scarf> (the PSTB fanaticism in the DS version really defines the game; it's probably a bad thing, it leads to you wearing your left thumb out)
22:00:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, I hate the camera control in mario 64
22:00:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, that is the one thing that's off.
22:00:15 <AnMaster> sure, it is a good idea but it doesn't work out well
22:00:22 <scarf> (also, I dislike the way items work in the DS version, they're pretty much all designed to screw over the leader, you can't do clever things like setting red shells as mines any more)
22:00:22 <fizzie> Glide64 is a weird name for a video plugin, assuming it doesn't actually use the 3dfx Glide API.
22:00:33 <pikhq> Would be much better if it were analog.
22:00:47 <alise> scarf: I hate how sending a blue shell backwards as 1st player hits yourself
22:00:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, or some opengl wrapper thingy for it
22:00:55 <alise> it's just... argh, no, I didn't tell you to do that
22:01:04 <scarf> alise: what does sending it forwards do?
22:01:13 <alise> blue shells don't aim :P
22:01:15 <alise> they just hit player 1
22:01:17 <scarf> same happens in the DS version
22:01:28 <alise> the ds version's graphics suck and i find the gameplay a little sluggish
22:01:39 <scarf> in the GBA version, you can trail a spiky shell behind you like with other shells, and it will protect you and break like a green shell does
22:01:45 <AnMaster> I never liked either fighting or racing games
22:01:51 <cpressey> Fully 1/3 of my scrollback is now Mario-related.
22:01:51 <alise> mario kart isn't really a racing game
22:01:53 <scarf> and if you fire it forwards, it just goes straight and hits a wall and dies
22:01:57 <AnMaster> RPGs and some platformers is what I like
22:01:59 <scarf> if you fire it backwards, it stays there as a mine
22:02:08 <scarf> alise: the DS version is, because they nerfed items so badly for the leader
22:02:09 <AnMaster> zelda a link to the past or oot
22:02:14 <scarf> the other versions aren't, really, though
22:02:19 * AnMaster waits for the flamewar to die down over that
22:02:35 <scarf> AnMaster: I've never played either
22:02:40 <scarf> although I've watched two OoT TASes
22:02:46 <scarf> a normal one, and a RBG one
22:02:51 <alise> tool assisted speedruns
22:02:52 <scarf> AnMaster: tool-assisted speedrun
22:02:59 <scarf> reverse bottle glitch
22:03:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's a weird way to do it, but yes, it seems you're right. At least it explains the name.
22:03:04 <alise> artworks in which you slow down time in the game and use repeated save/loads to get an almost perfect time for a game
22:03:06 <scarf> not a cheat code, exactly
22:03:09 <alise> using glitches is fair game
22:03:14 <AnMaster> scarf, also wth is "reverse bottle glitch"?
22:03:17 <scarf> it's memory corruption
22:03:23 <alise> (I made sure to call them artworks so you'd get upset and trash them)
22:03:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, It could be fairly old code?
22:03:39 <scarf> basically, you use a race condition while fishing to get a bottle into an inventory slot it can't normally occupy
22:03:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: It probably is; no-one'd do it that way nowadays.
22:03:43 <alise> <fizzie> AnMaster: That's a weird way to do it, but yes, it seems you're right. At least it explains the name.
22:04:02 <scarf> then you keep catching and releasing bugs; every time you do so, it copies one of the bytes that holds item quantities over another
22:04:08 <AnMaster> alise, one of the video plugins for mupen64
22:04:10 <scarf> according to how your inventory's arranged
22:04:16 <AnMaster> alise, the only one that works decently too
22:04:29 <scarf> so you seemingly do random sidequests for most of the game, then randomly you've completed all the dungeons in the game
22:04:46 <fizzie> Some of the TASes use quite a lot of special programming in them; I think some of the megaman ones had pretty complicated programs to do the optimal-route-finding.
22:04:52 <AnMaster> scarf, you still need to complete the first normally
22:04:55 <scarf> a good RBG quest doesn't complete any of the compulsory dungeons apart from the last one, and for that one you skip most of them
22:04:57 <scarf> AnMaster: no you don't
22:05:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's glitches to skip that.
22:05:49 <AnMaster> scarf, interesting how it can skip over going to big link?
22:06:14 <scarf> oh, you just wander into the temple of time, become big link, and wander back out again
22:06:24 <scarf> glitching past all the barriers that would normally stop you just doing that without prerequisites
22:06:31 <alise> so, trollaxing time
22:06:36 <alise> best characters/kart in mario kart?
22:06:43 <AnMaster> scarf, there must have to be a *LOT* of glitches?
22:06:47 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, it's a TAS
22:06:51 <AnMaster> alise, don't they all work exactly the same iirc?
22:06:57 <AnMaster> alise, at least in the n64 version
22:07:01 <alise> 09:40:04 <AnMaster> cpressey, isn't there an algorithm for converting it to RPN?
22:07:04 <alise> shunting thingy dijkstra bla
22:07:06 <AnMaster> scarf, pretty sure they do in the n64 version
22:07:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: http://www.tasvideos.org/ZeldaOcarinaOfTimeTricks.html
22:07:07 <alise> AnMaster: nah different speed, accel, etc
22:07:14 <alise> powerup weights, i think
22:07:15 <alise> and special powerups
22:07:17 <AnMaster> alise, err yes, it was mentioned a bit later iirc
22:07:28 <alise> AnMaster: i'm logreading an entire week
22:07:34 <alise> don't give me shit or i'll start blabbing about how bad it was
22:07:35 <AnMaster> alise, where is that described? Not in game?
22:07:53 <scarf> my definition of a TAS: it's where you painstakingly spend months, interactively at a copy of the game, using rewinds, slowdown, etc., to record a script that plays the game as near-perfectly as you can manage
22:07:54 <AnMaster> alise, I'm talking about n64 here
22:08:00 <alise> go to single player mode, select characters, select kart, look at kart stats
22:08:05 <cpressey> alise: I can summarize my lines: "Hate Python, haaaaate."
22:08:09 <scarf> then you just plug the script into an emulator, and get a really really fast tool-assisted speedrun
22:08:17 <alise> cpressey: having to work with it?
22:09:23 <fizzie> http://tasvideos.org/RockmanTricks.html is also a nice list.
22:09:25 <scarf> cpressey: I don't think I've ever met anyone who hates Python before, so it's refreshing
22:09:32 <scarf> especially as a Perl fan myself, I should have come across more
22:09:41 <pikhq> scarf: The Pokemon Yellow speedrun couldn't have taken more than an evening to do, though.
22:09:53 <scarf> they skip out all the rerecords
22:09:58 <scarf> in the final product
22:10:03 <alise> scarf: it probably uses some glitch
22:10:07 <alise> to win the game in three minutes or something
22:10:08 <pikhq> Though, that's because the only glitch is restarting the console at the right time.
22:10:11 <alise> i.e. a joek a joek lol
22:10:18 <scarf> typically, a TAS takes a month of work to produce an hour of output
22:10:28 <alise> pikhq: How on earth?
22:10:31 <scarf> pikhq: ah, that's the one I was talking about
22:10:36 <pikhq> It saves. Shuts down the game in the middle of saving.
22:10:47 <pikhq> Starts the game, loads.
22:10:55 <scarf> alise: basically, if you turn it off while saving, all the remaining save data is full of the same byte
22:11:11 <scarf> pikhq: not quite, it went and did lots of changing the pokemon list, which was 255 items long and so overflowed into main memory
22:11:14 <cpressey> alise: Yes, it's my day job. scarf: The next time someone refers to it as "uncluttered" I shall refer them to the design of the pickle module, and have them compare it to any other modern language's serialization facilities.
22:11:27 <pikhq> scarf: That happened in-battle, and I was typing out the description.
22:11:33 <alise> cpressey: I never really thought of you as a day job kind of guy, Cats Eye surely generates some money right?!
22:11:35 <pikhq> scarf: Also, that was the item list.
22:11:38 <scarf> pikhq: oh, I got the order wrong
22:11:45 <alise> You can't possibly have time for all the stuff you do without either not having a day job or sleeping polyphasically, surely. :P
22:11:49 <pikhq> It swapped the item list around to write memory such that it skipped to the end of the game after the battle.
22:12:07 <scarf> I thought the pokemon list was involved too, but that might have been a different TAS
22:12:39 <scarf> pikhq: same, but I thought the /list/ was still used
22:13:15 <pikhq> The Pokemon Green one was fun, also.
22:13:20 <alise> i'm watching that speedrun now
22:13:23 <pikhq> Started a walk through walls glitch.
22:13:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:13:25 <alise> "Go 9999999999999999999999999999999999999[lots of 9s]"
22:13:33 <cpressey> alise: I had more time when I was at school, and when I was commuting to/from work at my previous job.
22:13:38 <pikhq> Walked to the end-of-game.
22:13:52 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3L597dZFM
22:14:36 <alise> "you made this game your bitch" --youtube comment
22:15:11 <scarf> alise: what's that a link to (at work)?
22:15:30 <alise> PKMN Yellow speedrun
22:16:08 <scarf> ah, I've seen that one already I think
22:16:17 <AnMaster> which platforms are the pokemon games for?
22:16:18 <scarf> Youtube URLs are so opaque...
22:16:22 <scarf> AnMaster: most of them
22:16:25 <AnMaster> I mean, what sort of emulator do you need
22:16:25 <scarf> that Nintendo make
22:16:31 <alise> AnMaster: Gameboys, mostly.
22:16:43 <AnMaster> well, I have a ds emulator, it sucks
22:16:46 <alise> GBA (gameboy advance) has Pokemon Sapphire which is the main one I've played.
22:16:49 <AnMaster> so the gameboy advance one then
22:16:51 <alise> And VirtualBoy Advance is pretty much perfect.
22:16:52 <scarf> handheld RPGs: game boy original, game boy color, gameboy advance, DS for the four generations
22:16:55 <alise> Most of the emulators are.
22:17:05 <alise> And obtaining a sapphire/ruby rom is as easy as, uh, going to the toilet?
22:17:10 <AnMaster> <alise> And VirtualBoy Advance is pretty much perfect. <-- yes
22:17:11 <scarf> there were also console RPGs too, for the N64-like consoles
22:17:23 <alise> also, protip: tapping A and B doesn't make the pokeballs work more.
22:17:28 <scarf> alise: ruby/sapphire have a rather obnoxious font
22:17:34 <alise> scarf: Really? I never noticed.
22:17:36 <scarf> alise: but it gives your fingers something to do while you're waiting
22:17:44 <alise> sure you don't meen firered and lifegreen?
22:17:55 <alise> (they ran out of colours lol.)
22:18:00 <scarf> that's obnoxious too, but a diffreent way
22:18:06 <scarf> and firered and leafgreen are remakes of red and green
22:18:14 <scarf> so it makes sense to have similar names
22:18:14 <alise> How's the font obnoxious?
22:18:14 <AnMaster> so, I seem to lack a collection of such roms
22:18:22 <AnMaster> I do have a large snes rom collection
22:18:23 <scarf> just like heartgold and soulsilver are remakes of gold and silver
22:18:28 <alise> http://www.coolrom.com/roms/gba/
22:18:37 <alise> may be bullshit, maybe not
22:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, I was planning for piratebay
22:19:14 <alise> roms are generally on less reputable sites ;)
22:19:20 <scarf> look, there's a general rule that you don't discuss ROMs on every forum in existence
22:19:24 <scarf> including, presumably, IRC
22:19:45 <AnMaster> scarf, so, lets discuss EEPROM then
22:20:00 <AnMaster> clearly it was *that* type of roms we were talking about here
22:20:22 <alise> scarf: yes, but I don't really care
22:20:26 <scarf> oh, I expected people would be jumping on me for either censorship, or calling IRC a forum
22:20:46 <scarf> obviously I fail at trolling #esoteric, I should go back to trolling ##crawl-dev
22:20:59 <scarf> (I don't mean to troll it, but looking back on what I say there, I think I'm a troll)
22:21:11 <AnMaster> oh ffs, rapidshare style website sucks
22:21:15 <AnMaster> now I remember why I prefer torrents
22:21:42 <alise> http://lericson.blogg.se/code/2010/february/this-might-seem-silly-git-pull.html
22:22:10 <pikhq> I'd be playing a Pokemon game in Japanese, but... No kanji.
22:22:15 <pikhq> *Makes it harder to read*.
22:22:27 <pikhq> (well. Easier to read. Harder to understand.)
22:23:17 <fizzie> The first rule of ROMs is that you don't discuss ROMs.
22:23:37 <scarf> alise: I like f4y's comment
22:23:56 <scarf> even if it's factually incorrect
22:24:10 <scarf> but especially if it's correct
22:24:15 <scarf> the other commenters seem divide
22:24:51 <Deewiant> The one about Linus being a Swedish speaker? It's correct.
22:25:56 <AnMaster> <alise> http://lericson.blogg.se/code/2010/february/this-might-seem-silly-git-pull.html <-- heh
22:27:56 <AnMaster> there is a torrent for 10.26 GB of <things not discussed> for GBA
22:28:07 <fizzie> Gah, there must be some sort of gnome (no offense meant to the desktop environment) on my disk eating files.
22:28:31 <scarf> AnMaster: I don't get what you're trying to say here, and don't particularly want to either
22:28:50 <fizzie> Well, the GoodGBA set of things not discussed contains 34118 things not discussed, and those modern things not discussed aren't exactly very small.
22:28:56 <fizzie> Memory's cheap, after all.
22:29:29 <pikhq> There's a 10 second speed run.
22:29:49 <pikhq> Its submission explains the input frame by frame.
22:29:53 <pikhq> http://www.tasvideos.org/2025S.html
22:30:06 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:30:26 -!- tcsavage has left (?).
22:30:44 <Deewiant> That fantasy strategy game or whatever?
22:30:55 <Deewiant> Oh, you linked it. Wonder how I missed that.
22:32:02 <Deewiant> When your win condition is based solely on the RNG what do you expect?
22:32:25 <alise> who cares, it's sweet
22:34:05 <fizzie> Yes; I was about to ask whether anyone's interested enough to look at frame 1063 and explain what that's about.
22:35:03 <alise> Colours, the skeleton.
22:35:12 <alise> Which frame is it?
22:35:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M
22:35:15 <alise> Er, as in, what time?
22:35:17 <alise> http://www.tasvideos.org/1145M.html
22:35:21 <alise> click the watch thingy and choose you toob
22:35:39 <Sgeo> Not my link, it's off topic
22:35:41 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzkrREEtnAI
22:36:09 <alise> what time count is the colour skeleton
22:37:16 <alise> those are your two choices
22:37:22 <Deewiant> I also think it's obscured by the "this is from tasvideos" text
22:38:00 <fizzie> It should be the frame immediately before the "congratulation message is displayed" one.
22:38:14 <Deewiant> I'm looking at a frame 1060-1062
22:39:38 <alise> MissPiggy: it basically manipulates the RNG through a certain input sequence so that a search for whoever finds him successfully, and does that immediately
22:39:43 <pikhq> alise: Frame 1120 in the actual video.
22:40:01 <alise> is it the flicker thing before the hooray you won thing
22:40:22 <pikhq> alise: It glitches oddly, then "Hooray, you won".
22:40:23 <alise> 11:21:11 <cpressey> I am eternally tempted to design a "real" language which "gets everything right". It's a bad temptation. It's better to stick to these weird little languages that intentionally get things "wrong"...
22:40:27 <alise> EEEEEHIRDLAAAAAANG
22:40:32 <alise> sorry, AAAAAALISELAAAAAAAAANG
22:40:42 <pikhq> The skeleton is on the screen color-swapped for no good reason.
22:40:53 <Deewiant> Gah, except that my MPC doesn't work and VLC evidently lacks frame advance.
22:40:53 <alise> the "simple" stuff, getting that right is easy
22:40:57 <alise> aliselang solves problems you didn't even know you had
22:41:05 <alise> Deewiant: mplayer? oh, mpc = windows = no
22:41:57 <alise> 11:50:36 <cpressey> I could live with them being slightly less than first-class, for efficiency. But still, it's so rare to be able to handle them like normal objects.
22:42:06 <alise> Squeak has totally super-awesome stack objects
22:42:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hrm, well... I downloaded the highest-quality MP4 version from youtube, and frame-advanced, and there's one glitched-graphics frame, but I still don't see any special colors on the skeleton.
22:42:21 <cpressey> alise: If getting the simple stuff right is easy, why does it still seem so rare?
22:42:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Glitched-graphics comes a few frames before that.
22:42:34 <alise> cpressey: Because most people underrate correctness massively.
22:42:44 <fizzie> pikhq: Oh, okay. Maybe the youtube version has a dropped frame or something, then.
22:42:50 <alise> fizzie: It's the flicker before the you won thing
22:43:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: Only one glitched-graphics frame?
22:43:07 <alise> cpressey: And most people HIGHLY underrate dependent types!!!!12121
22:43:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, a couple.
22:43:13 <Deewiant> There should be 3 according to the description
22:43:53 <alise> cpressey: I'd avoid IEEE floating point whenever possible, anyway.
22:44:02 <alise> Things that break mathematical laws in such ridiculously arbitrary ways upset me.
22:44:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, okay, there it is. The .avi version has it, the youtube one doesn't.
22:44:30 <MissPiggy> whereas the people that know dependent types highly OVERrate them
22:44:37 <cpressey> Floating point on an Apple ][+ traumatized me over the real number system for the rest of my life.
22:44:44 <alise> MissPiggy: Hey, it's not my fault they solve most problems.
22:44:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: If it's the one that colours a whole lot more than just the skeleton, I saw that one.
22:45:03 <alise> I was thinking about a system which has |x-y| instead of x-y
22:45:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I assume it's that one.
22:45:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: Since the skeleton is coloured too.
22:45:18 <alise> would be cool to keep the commutativity rag up for as many operations as possible
22:45:21 <Deewiant> Also, yay, VLC /does/ have frame advance. It's just hidden in view->advanced controls.
22:46:16 <alise> 11:51:53 <cpressey> Hm, maybe Ruby does something like that though -- I wouldn't put it past it.
22:46:49 <cpressey> alise: Yeah, they're getting rid of continuations in 1.9. Because they're hard to implement efficiently.
22:47:06 <alise> 1.9.1 is out, maybe even 1.9.2
22:47:09 <alise> and they reinstated continuations
22:47:16 <alise> I think they even work across threads now, which makes them something other than useless
22:48:08 <Ilari> AFAIK, Youtube is ~30fps, while most videos on that site are ~60fps...
22:48:27 <alise> cpressey: I know right
22:48:31 <Deewiant> How's your http://www.youtube.com/my_speed
22:48:55 <alise> "We did not find any video playbacks from your location."
22:49:18 * Sgeo doesn't know Ruby
22:49:42 <alise> It is not a very good language.
22:49:58 <alise> Ruby is just like "yeaaa DYNAMIFUCKINGCISM"
22:50:14 <MissPiggy> well maybe it's a matter of the code they already have is fucked
22:50:32 <cpressey> MissPiggy: I think one of the complaints was that VM's like the JVM are all, like, stack-based
22:50:49 <alise> MissPiggy: too much dynamiwoopy
22:52:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Your average video speed at this location from January 14, 2010 to February 11, 2010 was 2.89 Mbps." That's a bit strange, since the speeds shown by the test video right now are a lot higher. Well, whatever.
22:53:16 <fizzie> Maybe this is just a good time-of-day.
22:53:28 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:53:45 <Deewiant> My graph is very sawtooth-like.
22:54:52 <pikhq> MissPiggy: There are few languages more dynamic.
22:58:10 <alise> I love Iverson Brackets.
22:59:08 <pikhq> Languages more dynamic?
22:59:37 <cpressey> "Ruby is so dynamic" is mostly marketing. Lots of languages are dynamic. It's not usually a good thing.
23:00:03 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iverson_bracket
23:00:08 <alise> [x] = if x then 1 else 0
23:00:10 <MissPiggy> alise were you reading fortress blog?
23:00:13 <alise> [a < b] + [a = b] + [a > b] = 1
23:00:16 <pikhq> alise: Yes, Smalltalk is more dynamic.
23:00:19 <alise> sign(x) = [x > 0] - [x < 0]
23:00:22 <alise> MissPiggy: i was reading you mentioning it
23:00:29 <pikhq> Smalltalk is also... Better.
23:00:42 <cpressey> Oh, Kronecker delta I've heard of...
23:00:58 <cpressey> Python is plenty dynamic, and I curse it for being so.
23:02:22 <cpressey> Isn't there a Matz quote where he admits Ruby was supposed to be like 'Smalltalk for normal programmers' or something?
23:02:49 <alise> He just decided to change the syntax at the end of its hodge-podge transformation.
23:03:03 <cpressey> There's not much to get. Like I said, it's mostly marketing
23:03:05 <alise> " Ruby is a language designed in the following steps:
23:03:05 <alise> * take a simple lisp language (like one prior to CL).
23:03:05 <alise> * remove macros, s-expression.
23:03:05 <alise> * add simple object system (much simpler than CLOS).
23:03:05 <alise> * add blocks, inspired by higher order functions.
23:03:05 <alise> * add methods found in Smalltalk.
23:03:09 <alise> * add functionality found in Perl (in OO way).
23:03:11 <alise> So, Ruby was a Lisp originally, in theory.
23:03:13 <alise> Let's call it MatzLisp from now on. ;-)"
23:03:28 <alise> It's like Lisp, but get this: we take out the Lisp.
23:03:35 <MissPiggy> so basically it's a rubbish version of common lisp
23:03:41 <alise> "Have sex with me, women! I am a genius!"
23:03:47 <alise> "I invented MATZLISP!"
23:07:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:07:57 <cpressey> I could tell you stories about a certain troll in one of the BSD channels that that just reminded me of, but I'd much rather forget him.
23:09:13 <pikhq> MissPiggy: S-expressions aren't essential to being Lisp. I'
23:09:30 <pikhq> d say macros and the idea of the code being a list are, though.
23:09:31 <MissPiggy> just the thought of /removing/ them seems bizarre to me
23:09:44 <pikhq> There exist M-expression Lisps.
23:10:41 <AnMaster> hm "We did not find any video playbacks from your location." here too for http://www.youtube.com/my_speed
23:11:03 <AnMaster> it also suggests I download google chrome for linux
23:13:20 <oerjan> <Gregor> Wow, today's xkcd is bad, even for xkcd. <-- it's for valentine's day. how could you possibly make a joke for valentine's day that _wasn't_ bad?
23:13:22 <AnMaster> hm it does get the right small town
23:13:36 <AnMaster> considering I have a highly dynamic ip
23:13:54 <alise> you know how perl requires a true statement at the end of modules?
23:13:59 <alise> clearly, my language should require a ∎
23:14:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_proof
23:14:29 <AnMaster> oh hard to spot it was that here.
23:14:47 <AnMaster> alise, also I'm more used to the outline version
23:15:00 <alise> Your mom is more used to the outline version.
23:15:12 <AnMaster> that one doesn't even make sense
23:15:26 <cpressey> You can use it like a rimshot, see.
23:18:38 <cpressey> I'd like to see a language require a statement which is neither true nor false at the end of each module. Perhaps an opinion.
23:19:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
23:20:18 <alise> cpressey: Or an infinite loop
23:20:22 <alise> You have to prove it's an infinite loop.
23:20:28 <alise> The proof must be at least 100 lines long.
23:20:37 <alise> Finally, some proper busywork for programmers wanting to slack off!
23:20:46 <alise> "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" "Proving"
23:21:06 <pikhq> Huh. DSMV is removing the Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.
23:22:15 <MissPiggy> I knew aspergers doesn't exist!!!!
23:25:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: dammit i was going to comment on why uk is not a schengen member
23:27:03 <oerjan> (iiuc it's because of the british commonwealth - they cannot have easy travelling within both zones without all of the EU having the same)
23:27:25 <alise> pikhq: So hey, it's slightly more reputable.
23:27:28 <alise> Still a bunch of crap, but.
23:28:12 <oerjan> since the schengen zone is essentially uncontrolled internally, but with strict outer borders externally
23:29:02 <oerjan> s/all of the EU/all of the Schengen zone/
23:30:00 <oerjan> i assume that the british commonwealth travel is somewhat controlled, but much weaker than the outer schengen border
23:30:31 <alise> how strict exactly is the outer schengen border?
23:31:00 <pikhq> alise: About as strict as other first-world nations.
23:32:18 <oerjan> iiuc to enter schengen from a place that doesn't have visa exemption to it, you apply to any country within, but _all_ countries are notified and can probably veto it
23:32:42 <alise> pretty hard to enter the eu, then
23:32:43 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure of the specifics though
23:32:50 <alise> (probably easiest to enter the uk then the eu from that?)
23:33:41 <pikhq> alise: Can't go from UK to EU unless you can enter the Schengen zone from outside it.
23:34:10 <alise> ok then, hard to enter the EU full-stop
23:34:24 <alise> letting almost any country in the eu veto any entry is pretty steep though
23:34:27 <cpressey> Is this one of those puzzles, like where farmer Brown has a boat and his pig and a coyote?
23:34:38 <alise> Travelling IMMIGRANT
23:34:49 <alise> as opposed to a non-travelling immigrant
23:34:58 <pikhq> Also, there's not a veto system in place.
23:35:06 <oerjan> by "probably veto" i mean i'm not in any way sure whether the accepting country _has_ to obey a veto
23:35:37 <pikhq> There is a common set of requirements to get a visa, and a single list of people that can't get a visa.
23:36:03 <pikhq> They must also not be a threat to the security or health of a Schengen nation.
23:37:00 <alise> is the list public?
23:37:04 <alise> i wanna see i wanna see i wanna see
23:37:44 <oerjan> i'd guess not, this list obviously includes suspected terrorists and stuff
23:37:55 <oerjan> but then i've already been wrong in this discussion
23:38:22 <alise> 2 Jun 2006 ... So a listing on the Schengen immigration 'blacklist' in ... The current criteria for listing a person on the Schengen blacklist are set out ...
23:38:24 <alise> wanna see wanna see
23:39:08 <pikhq> The list doesn't appear to be public.
23:39:59 <oerjan> i wonder if you are even notified of being on the list if that's the reason you're denied entry
23:40:16 <pikhq> Being on the list does not necessarily deny you entry.
23:40:28 <pikhq> It's a list of people officials should look out for.
23:40:39 <uorygl> Farmer Brown and his boat are on one side of a river, along with his pig and his coyote. He can only take one animal across the river at once. If he leaves them alone together, the coyote will eat the pig.
23:40:48 <pikhq> Including people that should be denied entry, people who are wanted in a country in the Schengen zone, and missing persons.
23:40:49 <uorygl> Solution: Take the pig across. Go back. Take the coyote across.
23:41:16 <oerjan> no no no you have to take the coyote first *ducks*
23:41:29 <cpressey> But the problem is that the coyote is on the Schengen blacklist, for obvious reasons.
23:41:44 <oerjan> (hint: the coyote and pig are completely symmetric in this puzzle)
23:42:06 <pikhq> They also report lost or reported stolen *items*.
23:42:28 <pikhq> (vehicles, identity documents, firearms, etc.)
23:42:58 <pikhq> The list is updated every 5 minutes.
23:43:01 <alise> haskell needs a ShowHTML
23:43:05 <alise> i need italics to show this properly :(
23:45:39 <cpressey> I've been having impure thoughts about serialization lately
23:46:42 <alise> distinguishing literals from free variables in this language
23:47:20 <fizzie> So when you have the coyote and pig on the other side, how can you go back for the ducks?
23:47:22 <cpressey> You could just write out HTML in your show function
23:47:49 <cpressey> Or better - ANSI escape codes!
23:47:59 <cpressey> Then you can make it out on your terminal
23:48:07 <alise> Perhaps bolding, or inversion.
23:48:22 <pikhq> fizzie: You get the ducks to swim.
23:50:28 <alise> Fuck you, old GHC, and your lack of UTF-8.
23:50:51 <oerjan> fizzie: take the coyote back, then the ducks over, then go back and fetch the coyote
23:51:12 <fizzie> oerjan: But won't the ducks eat the pig then? Those things are nasty.
23:51:27 <oerjan> oh in that case there might be a problem
23:51:42 <fizzie> Results 1 - 3 of 3 for "duck eats pig". (0.20 seconds) -- well, maybe it's not so bad.
23:51:52 <oerjan> but then there is anyhow - the ducks might swim over to the pig while you're not watching
23:53:20 <fizzie> Yes, I hear ducks take to water like a duck to water.
23:53:49 <oerjan> hm as long as the ducks are vegetarian this would seem to work. although then you really _do_ need to take the coyote first.
23:54:11 <oerjan> won't work with 3 things the coyote eats, i think
23:55:02 <oerjan> ah of course pig - coyote - duck is isomorphic to the well-known wolf - goat - bag of whatever goats eat
23:55:05 <fizzie> Well, now, as long as you don't let the coyote produce any, ahem, excrement, you've still gotten the things across, and that's what matters.
23:55:44 <oerjan> since it doesn't matter who eats whom, you've failed anyway
23:56:11 <fizzie> On the other hand, if you eat them all, you're the winner.
23:56:32 <oerjan> yeah i was going to suggest you just eat the pig straight away
23:57:09 <oerjan> now we generalize this to an arbitrary graph of -will eat- relationships...
23:57:21 <alise> cpressey: ha, that ANSI code idea was brilliant
23:58:40 <oerjan> that doesn't quite extend to the cannibals and missionaries case though, since that depends on majority