←2010-02-13 2010-02-14 2010-02-15→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:15 <MissPiggy> alise by the way have you seen Shin-Cheng Mus invertible programming language?
00:00:51 <alise> MissPiggy: yes but you can get close to swapping it
00:00:52 <alise> also no
00:00:53 <augur> alise: oh. well, thats not a bidirectional parser. ;p
00:01:01 <alise> augur: and your mom is a whore. :|
00:01:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net).
00:01:11 <oklopol> "MissPiggy: shut up oklopol GOD!!! I can't belive you sometimes" <<< what was this in reference to, your msgs come one pageful at a tim
00:01:12 <oklopol> e
00:02:43 <oklopol> pansexuality?
00:02:56 <MissPiggy> okpause it's re. 23:56 < oklopol> god things annoy me today,
00:03:25 <alise> okpause?
00:03:39 <alise> you know, nobody else finds oklopol annoying
00:04:00 <oerjan> "Besides bidirectional polytypic examples, including invertible serialization, we give the definition of a monadic bi-arrow transformer, which we use to construct a bidirectional parser/pretty printer."
00:04:09 <oklopol> i bet many people here find me annoying
00:04:16 <alise> oerjan: link me so I can remind myself to read it if I fail horribly at this
00:04:19 <oerjan> http://www.citeulike.org/user/voigt/article/342287
00:04:32 <alise> I really would like a nice Parsec-lite (I know it can't be as powerful by definition) bidi parser lib
00:04:35 <augur> oerjan: aha! so its not a "bidirectional parser" its a bidrectional (parser/pretty-printer)
00:04:38 <oerjan> alise: you may need some help to get behind the ACM wall
00:04:41 <alise> would make toy languages so much nicer
00:04:48 <oklopol> jehova's witnesses came today
00:04:50 <oerjan> i hear augur is useful for that
00:04:54 <alise> just write one quick syntax definition and I get my pretty-printer free
00:04:57 <alise> oerjan: ah, thanks
00:05:04 <MissPiggy> ;(
00:05:10 <alise> Jehovah's Type Witnesses.
00:05:19 <oklopol> i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything
00:05:19 <alise> disciples of Agda
00:05:20 <MissPiggy> it was a joke alise
00:05:28 <alise> important figures include the prophet Coq
00:05:30 <alise> MissPiggy: oh, right
00:05:37 <alise> MissPiggy: it's just that you're normally like that so I wasn't sure :D
00:05:41 <MissPiggy> lol
00:05:41 <alise> (that was another one of them jokes)
00:05:45 <alise> oklopol: HA
00:05:55 <alise> shoulda taped it
00:06:13 <MissPiggy> I never talked to any jumping johosephats
00:06:35 <alise> Sequence :: Syntax t b -> (b -> Syntax t a) -> Syntax t a
00:06:42 <alise> whoops, looks like a monad slipped in
00:07:13 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/p86-alimarine.pdf
00:07:16 <oerjan> alise: it was just the first google hit for bidirectional parsing haskell, anyhow
00:07:55 <oklopol> shoulda taped what?
00:07:58 <oklopol> the witnesses?
00:08:03 <oklopol> i often talk to them
00:08:05 <alise> yeah
00:08:08 <alise> <oklopol> i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything
00:08:09 <alise> comedy gold
00:08:25 <oklopol> :D
00:08:48 <augur> you like my responsiveness? :)
00:09:33 <MissPiggy> augur what's that?
00:09:45 <augur> the link is the paper that oerjan is referring to
00:09:53 <augur> from behind ACM access barriers
00:09:54 <oklopol> alise: i'm afraid of being too frank with jehovas, i'm afraid something i say makes them understand they're completely wasting their life, which i find a horrible thought
00:09:57 <MissPiggy> awwors
00:10:17 <MissPiggy> oklopol you rare nice :)
00:10:24 <oklopol> i'm always careful around people who i think are doing something wrong
00:10:30 <alise> augur: didn't even notice whoa
00:10:40 <alise> augur: you should set up a website that automates that :P
00:10:41 <alise> and get sued
00:10:48 <augur> :P
00:10:50 <oklopol> MissPiggy: dunno, i think i'm just a coward
00:10:51 <augur> actually
00:10:59 <augur> the problem is more that i couldnt even make it work
00:11:06 <augur> the ACM search tool doesnt work right
00:11:12 <MissPiggy> I am hello
00:11:43 <oklopol> and i'm afraid of convincing people about anything, because if i convinced them about something that's wrong, that would be just horrible
00:12:11 <MissPiggy> well don't worry about convincing me of anything
00:12:14 <MissPiggy> because I don't mind
00:12:17 <MissPiggy> infact I like it
00:12:38 <oklopol> have you heard me talk about stuff? i'm not very convincing.
00:12:49 <oklopol> well
00:12:58 <oklopol> i guess that's just a reason for you not to be worried, not me
00:13:06 <oerjan> oklopol: "If you take the life lie from an average man, you take away his happiness as well."
00:13:21 <oerjan> (Ibsen)
00:13:43 <oklopol> i hate it when my crazy thoughts are shared by less crazy people
00:13:54 <MissPiggy> what's so crazy about ____________
00:14:11 <oklopol> nothing really
00:14:13 <oerjan> although the translation is a bit deceiving, the norwegian "med det samme" can mean "at once" as well as "as well"
00:15:15 <oerjan> (also the original is gender neutral)
00:15:31 <oerjan> er, except from pronouns, which cannot be
00:17:08 <alise> "the life lie" is awkward
00:17:17 <alise> "the life's lie", maybe.
00:17:52 <oerjan> perhaps. the original is "livsløgnen", which i suspect was a word ibsen invented but which is immediately understandable
00:18:03 <oklopol> i prefer life lie
00:18:03 <oklopol> because it looks like a typoed life line
00:18:03 <oklopol> ...or maybe for some other reason
00:18:47 <oerjan> (and the -s- is just for word combining, although it _is_ etymologically a genitive ending)
00:19:01 <alise> yeah utilitarianism and knowledgeisawesomeism are kind of conflicting
00:19:04 <alise> which disturbs me
00:20:59 <oklopol> ethics is too complicated
00:22:28 <oerjan> "Ibsen er trolig årsaken til at begrepet livsløgn er i allmenn bruk i de nordiske land, mens den engelske oversettelsen life lie riktignok blir brukt men i mindre omfang."
00:23:03 <oerjan> i.e. it's used in the nordic countries, but not much in english (which is why i could only find it on norwegian wikipedia i presume
00:23:19 <oerjan> )
00:23:37 <oerjan> (also in german)
00:25:28 <oerjan> well, http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/3546/The-Life-Lie.html is in english
00:26:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:27:47 <alise> ooh, I have an idea for making sure all the values are used in the resulting AST
00:28:02 <alise> give it back as a Foo x instead of an x, where the value-constructing function takes Foo xs instead of xs
00:28:15 <alise> that way, you can keep track of the state of which values you've demanded
00:28:21 <alise> and you can't just go yeah demand it >> ignore the result
00:28:25 <alise> because you can't personally do it
00:28:50 <oerjan> is that Foo a monad return or a comonadic coreturn...
00:30:15 <oerjan> wait coreturn would be Foo a -> a
00:30:16 <alise> it's just
00:30:24 <alise> data Foo a = Foo a
00:30:27 <alise> except the constructor is not exposed
00:30:34 <alise> so only the value-constructor can dereference them
00:30:42 <alise> and when it does, it'll mark that parse result as used
00:30:54 <alise> if you have any unused results at the end, you are a very naughty boy
00:31:03 <alise> and it cannot be unparsed without specifying a default value somewhere
00:31:05 <oerjan> feels like a monad then
00:31:29 <MissPiggy> if it feels like a monad and it quacks like a monad...
00:31:32 <oerjan> or wait, you might not expose something for >>= or join either
00:31:46 <alise> right
00:32:23 <oerjan> hm right if you had those you could do >> and ignore the result, so not allowed
00:33:20 <alise> i think this will be a lot easier if i define `type Bijection a b = (a->b, b->a)
00:33:35 <alise> so that PP t a = Bijection [t] a
00:34:09 <alise> erm
00:34:12 <alise> (Maybe [t]) (Maybe a)
00:34:23 <alise> although i could do with some fromJust there or sth
00:34:46 <alise> type UncertainBijection a b = (a->Maybe b, b->Maybe a) :P
00:34:58 <alise> and it needs to be Maybe (a,[t]) anyway...
00:38:30 <MissPiggy> UncertainBijection?
00:38:35 <alise> yeah :P
00:38:58 <MissPiggy> yes well you definitely don't have a bijection between text and syntax
00:39:12 <alise> shaddap
00:39:14 <alise> it is useful though
00:39:18 <alise> maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a
00:39:18 <alise> maptok (f,g) (p,u) =
00:39:18 <alise> (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> (a, f xs')) $ p (map g xs)
00:39:18 <alise> ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> map f xs) (u a))
00:39:19 <MissPiggy> I don't know why it is useful
00:39:40 <alise> er, that doesn't quite type yet :D
00:40:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:41:23 <alise> maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a
00:41:23 <alise> maptok (f,g) (p,u) =
00:41:23 <alise> (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> Just (a, map f xs')) $ p (map g xs)
00:41:23 <alise> ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> Just (map f xs)) (u a))
00:41:24 <alise> there
00:42:21 -!- augur has changed nick to HPGrice.
00:42:30 -!- HPGrice has changed nick to augur.
00:53:13 <alise> meh
00:53:18 <alise> oerjan: does that paper include an implementation?
00:54:05 <oerjan> heck if i know, i only googled it
00:54:18 <alise> bah
00:54:21 <oerjan> (and maybe vaguely recalled hearing about it)
00:54:48 <oerjan> if not, maybe search for the author home pages?
00:56:25 <oerjan> oh the article is on citeseerx, so the ACM wall wasn't necessary
00:56:27 <alise> you'd think this would be - no you wouldn't
00:58:55 <oerjan> alise: http://www.cs.ru.nl/A.vanWeelden/index.php?p=downloads
00:59:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:59:35 <alise> "generic haskell" wow
00:59:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:59:54 <alise> well it does have parser->dumper
01:00:06 <alise> but god knows it'd take four years to translate it to modern haskell
01:00:16 <oerjan> ouch
01:00:39 <MissPiggy> generic haskell o_o
01:00:52 <alise> yeah it has like {|x|y} and shit in arguments
01:01:03 <alise> i think it's the predecessor to syb
01:01:14 <alise> doing it via generalised invertible arrows is a good idea though
01:01:18 * MissPiggy pukes
01:01:23 <alise> at least i think it's that
01:03:51 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:04:31 <alise> class Arrow arr => BiArrow arr where
01:04:32 <alise> (<->) :: (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> arr a b
01:04:32 <alise> inv :: arr a b -> arr b a
01:04:33 <alise> so it's just what i did
01:04:34 <alise> boring
01:05:43 <oerjan> seems there is nothing based on it in hackage, although Data.Bijection refers to it
01:06:40 <oerjan> also Data.Partial
01:06:52 -!- lament has joined.
01:07:15 <alise> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/TypeCompose/0.6.7/doc/html/Data-Bijection.html
01:12:42 * alise compiles Pure
01:14:30 <MissPiggy> whats Pure
01:14:52 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/; Q's begetee
01:15:13 <alise> Less obfuscatorarily, the successor to Q.
01:15:21 <MissPiggy> ahh
01:15:43 <alise> If LLVM isn't up-to-date enough on this old Ubuntu version I'll just use Q instead.
01:16:34 <alise> de bruijn is sexy.
01:16:46 <alise> that is indexes
01:17:59 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:18:45 <MissPiggy> yeah lol
01:20:46 <alise> i'm thinking
01:20:50 <alise> dependently typed tree rewriting
01:20:54 <alise> or
01:20:55 <MissPiggy> ;}
01:20:59 <alise> dependently typed functional applicative
01:21:02 <alise> one of them is the way forward
01:21:11 <MissPiggy> what is functional applicative?
01:21:22 <alise> your regular applicative, functional language
01:21:24 <alise> haskell, agda, etc
01:21:27 <alise> ML
01:22:17 <alise> <MissPiggy> I think I will implement Lamping
01:22:17 <alise> <MissPiggy> 's algorithm
01:22:17 <alise> <MissPiggy> in haskell
01:22:20 <alise> i thought haskell sucked
01:22:34 <MissPiggy> yeah it does and I decided not to code this
01:23:02 <alise> what is so bad about haskell?
01:23:18 <alise> apart from dependent types which you say are overrated and unicode which you dislike it's not that far from agda
01:23:20 <pikhq> MissPiggy likes bugs.
01:23:21 <pikhq> :P
01:23:25 <MissPiggy> I dont like agda either
01:23:31 <alise> does agda suck though?
01:23:32 <pikhq> Wait, you dislike Unicode?
01:23:42 <MissPiggy> I said overuse is bad
01:23:43 <alise> e dislikes gratuitous unicode in languages
01:23:47 <MissPiggy> just a bit is quite fine
01:23:54 <pikhq> 私はあなたをころしたい!
01:24:02 <MissPiggy> I dont' know Java :(
01:24:29 <pikhq> alise: ...
01:24:37 <alise> what
01:24:51 <pikhq> I love Unicode in languages.
01:25:43 <alise> programming languages e means
01:25:55 <pikhq> Yes.
01:25:57 <coppro> I'm ambivalent towards it
01:26:01 <coppro> on the one hand I like the concept
01:26:05 <coppro> on the other hand it's a bitch to type
01:26:52 <alise> I'm solving that problem by defining a not-entirely-pretty ASCII representation, and an all-out no-holds-barred TeX'd-up two-dimensional symbolerific presentation form.
01:27:04 <alise> A good editor would let you type the former to write the latter.
01:27:08 <MissPiggy> alise
01:27:11 <alise> Basically like Fortress does.
01:27:13 <MissPiggy> 01:24 < MissPiggy> cizra what about prolog?
01:27:19 <MissPiggy> 01:25 < cizra> MissPiggy: Haven't shown her that (= It's too hairy for my tastes
01:27:24 <MissPiggy> 01:26 < cizra> MissPiggy: Might be.. But I don't know much Prolog, so it'd be perilous to teach it to a newb.
01:27:47 <MissPiggy> lol @ "I hate prolog it's $vauge-and-meaningless-negative-term" --> "I don't know anything about prolog"
01:27:52 <MissPiggy> ?
01:28:06 <alise> he didn't say I hate prolog
01:28:09 <MissPiggy> oh
01:28:31 <alise> He said it's too hairy for his tastes, i.e. his personal sthetic response to it is a negative one, expressed as "hairy".
01:28:43 <alise> Maybe he has bad taste, but that's an opinion too. :P
01:29:09 <alise> also, not much != nothing
01:31:28 <alise> jane@jane-desktop:~/pure/pure-0.42$ pure
01:31:28 <alise> Segmentation fault
01:31:42 <alise> it worked in /usr/local >_<
01:31:53 <alise> $ pure
01:31:53 <Wareya> hahahaahahahahahahaa
01:31:53 <alise> bash: pure: command not found
01:31:55 <alise> haha WHAT
01:32:05 <alise> ... it removed itself
01:32:13 <alise> oh wait i didn't actually make install
01:32:13 <alise> lol
01:32:18 <alise> (but, WHAT)
01:32:27 <MissPiggy> lol it seppuku
01:32:33 <MissPiggy> I wish GNU/Prolog would seppuku
01:32:34 <alise> but there was no pure(1) :-D
01:32:42 <alise> its ghost went ohai then transcended
01:32:43 <alise> MissPiggy: why?
01:32:45 <alise> swi fan? :P
01:32:53 <MissPiggy> no I hate swi as well :((
01:32:58 <alise> what do you like
01:33:01 <MissPiggy> even though it's the best prolog implementation in the world
01:33:20 <MissPiggy> (I hate swi because they got right of "no.")
01:33:35 <oerjan> i'd've though swi would be the prolog for swine
01:33:45 <MissPiggy> :p
01:34:07 <oerjan> *thought
01:34:39 <oerjan> er, right of "no."?
01:34:54 <MissPiggy> wow I just found some awesome papers about lambda shared graph reduction
01:35:16 <oerjan> MissPiggy: what's "right of "no."?" supposed to mean?
01:35:24 <oerjan> *-?
01:35:58 <MissPiggy> oerjan: should have said 'rid of', when you do something in prolog and it fails it should print: no. -- but they changed it to print: false instead.. so they can claim the prolog query is a partial evaluation
01:36:03 <MissPiggy> evaluator
01:36:36 <alise> MissPiggy: lol pure actually has features from aardappel
01:36:37 <alise> the esolang
01:36:39 <alise> and credits it with them
01:37:40 <MissPiggy> http://strlen.com/aardappel/ ?
01:38:09 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:47:09 <alise> yeah
01:47:20 <alise> from the creator of Saurbrauten and FALSE
01:47:30 <alise> *Sauerbraten
01:53:44 <augur> potato! :D
01:55:40 <alise> Pure is sexy
01:57:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:57:41 <zzo38> Finally I fixed my OpenID service. (I just got a different library, and wrote the forms and stuff myself, using that library.)
01:58:21 <MissPiggy> good
02:01:48 <zzo38> It is currently a single-user service, but I could upgrade it to multi-user service, too.
02:02:05 <Gregor> Not that that would help you any :P
02:03:26 <zzo38> Yes, of course I don't need multi-user service, but I can program it as such in case anyone else wants a OpenID service on my server (you have to provide the Identity URL, Login Name, and Password MD5 Hash, and then I *might* consider it, but I will never support automated registration of accounts on my service)
02:05:27 <zzo38> Of course I can also add multi-user service just in case I might want multiple OpenID just by myself, even.
02:06:07 <zzo38> This is the library I used, in case you are interested: http://openidenabled.com/php-openid/
02:06:46 <Gregor> That's the library that Hackiki uses as a consumer too :P
02:07:06 <zzo38> OK, thanks.
02:07:16 <zzo38> I guess it can work!
02:07:55 <zzo38> There seems to be a few things missing in the documentation, though.
02:08:28 <Gregor> Such as any useful documentation whatsoever :P
02:09:02 <zzo38> However, I did eventually figure it out, and it isn't really that difficult.
02:11:10 <zzo38> I just tried to log in on Hackiki and it works perfectly fine.
02:14:08 <zzo38> Hackiki is a bit strange features, it even allows anyone to edit the way the wiki syntax works
02:14:48 <Gregor> That's the primary feature :P
02:15:04 <zzo38> Yes, I know it is
02:17:07 <Gregor> Apparently I end every line with a tongue-smiley :P
02:18:19 <Gregor> Sometimes my misuse of smileys gets out of hand.
02:18:52 <pikhq> Gregor: Alas.
02:18:57 <oerjan> <Gregor> hexosexual: Attracted to six. <-- last found counterexample
02:19:26 <Gregor> Weird that both of those unrelated lines came at once :P
02:20:31 <alise> I segfaulted pure \o/
02:20:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:20:57 <alise> > 3 % 3;
02:20:57 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a;
02:20:57 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a;
02:20:57 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: a%b = a div d%(b div d) when d = gcd a b end;
02:20:57 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a;
02:20:58 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b);
02:21:00 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a;
02:21:02 <alise> warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b);
02:21:04 <alise> Segmentation fault
02:21:08 <alise> I may not fully understand how to use this language
02:21:13 <MissPiggy> lol fault
02:21:22 <MissPiggy> turns out it's just a crap implementation
02:21:24 <alise> faultblog.org
02:21:30 <alise> MissPiggy: it's just an immature impl
02:21:31 <alise> new lang
02:21:36 <alise> fancy technology
02:21:37 <alise> etc
02:22:44 <Gregor> !c printf("Does this still work?")
02:22:53 <EgoBot> Does this still work?
02:22:58 <alise> aha, it's the % name
02:23:00 <alise> poop works
02:23:10 <alise> > poop 3 3;
02:23:10 <alise> 1
02:23:10 <alise> > poop 73 9;
02:23:10 <alise> [hang]
02:23:31 <alise> stupid thing
02:25:12 <MissPiggy> http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162
02:25:15 <Sgeo> alise, are you capable of reminding yourself? Tomorrow may be a mess for me
02:25:17 <MissPiggy> space walk starting soon
02:25:21 <MissPiggy> if you like video of space
02:25:44 <alise> Sgeo: ok
02:26:34 <alise> MissPiggy: cool they're talking and stuff
02:26:43 <alise> seeing the earth swirl is whoa, never realised it was so... fast, i guess
02:26:47 <alise> and
02:26:47 <alise> stuff
02:27:21 <MissPiggy> hehe
02:27:45 <alise> i find space terrifying :/
02:27:57 <alise> not the sheer emptiness, just the sheer... sheerness
02:28:08 <MissPiggy> I know what you mean
02:29:27 <alise> Poop a 1 = a;
02:29:28 <alise> Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end;
02:29:31 <alise> the problem here is when d = 1
02:29:38 <alise> it goes into an infinite loop
02:29:41 <MissPiggy> space man is out!!!!!!
02:29:47 <alise> omg /me unpause
02:29:47 <alise> s
02:29:53 <alise> FUCKIN LOAD
02:29:55 <MissPiggy> he just wormed out :D
02:29:58 <MissPiggy> he's hiding lol
02:30:06 <alise> haha
02:30:09 <alise> camofuckinflauge
02:30:19 <alise> whoa i thought this place was bigger than that
02:30:21 <MissPiggy> in space everything is wapped in future
02:30:23 <alise> like, giant man
02:30:25 <MissPiggy> me too
02:30:27 <alise> he is stuck to the lid
02:30:39 <alise> are you sure this is not a robot
02:30:39 <MissPiggy> he's just trolling
02:30:40 <MissPiggy> ignore him
02:30:53 <alise> also, wapped in future?
02:30:54 <alise> wat
02:30:56 <MissPiggy> it's mostly robot.. the way he moves etc
02:31:02 <MissPiggy> but it's a person inside it
02:31:14 <alise> HE WAS ARTIFICIAL...
02:31:16 <alise> BUT HE HAD...
02:31:17 <alise> A HUMAN SOUL
02:31:21 <alise> SPACEWALKER
02:31:22 <MissPiggy> LOL
02:31:23 <alise> In cinemas this summer
02:32:26 <alise> what is he doing with that thing he is holding
02:32:33 <alise> just sort of admiring it?
02:34:14 <MissPiggy> oh my god there's two of them
02:34:20 <MissPiggy> !!!! what if they breed !!!!
02:35:06 <alise> that was actually my first thought
02:35:10 <alise> i've no idea why
02:35:12 <MissPiggy> :)))
02:37:11 <alise> MissPiggy: tree rewriting 'pinyun from you so I can blame or not blame Pure
02:37:13 <alise> Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end;
02:37:18 <alise> if d = 1, this reduces to Poop a b
02:37:28 <alise> should this be an infinite loop, or should the equality of the reduction halt evaluation?
02:37:37 <MissPiggy> it should halt!
02:37:48 <alise> ok. that was my expectation too. but,
02:37:52 <alise> then how do you write an infinite loop?
02:38:12 <MissPiggy> loop = do nothing `then` loop
02:38:24 <MissPiggy> = do nothing `then` do nothing `then` loop
02:38:31 <MissPiggy> sort of like a monad ?
02:38:37 <alise> that's just seq
02:38:44 <alise> but seq is semantically nonsense in a pure language
02:38:48 <alise> try again
02:39:02 <alise> also, that causes heap overflow if you run it long enough
02:40:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
02:42:37 <MissPiggy> are you seeing this first person space cam?
02:42:50 <pikhq> alise: Oh, seq has some semantic meaning in a pure language. Just exceptionally useless meaning.
02:43:04 <pikhq> Defined as follows: _ `seq` b = b
02:43:07 <pikhq> :P
02:43:53 <alise> MissPiggy: i stopped watching :/
02:44:01 <alise> pikhq: well also _|_ `seq` b = _|_
02:44:05 <alise> but _|_ is nonsense!
02:44:11 <pikhq> alise: Heheheh.
02:44:22 <alise> if you could pattern-match on _|_ you'd define
02:44:27 <alise> _|_ `seq` _ = _|_
02:44:29 <alise> _ `seq` b = b
02:44:40 <alise> but turing shat on that party before we even thought of it
02:44:51 <pikhq> Damned halting problem.
02:44:56 <MissPiggy> you don't like space!!!!!
02:45:01 <MissPiggy> you are an enemy of space
02:47:36 <oerjan> you can pattern match on _|_, but only if the result is _|_
02:47:47 <Gregor> zzo38: When you use medit (the meta-editor), it always creates a file that uses the .wiki wiki engine, which puts its own HTML template around the page. It has a hidden chebang line. Use edit, change the chebang line to any other language (e.g. bash), and you can control the whole page.
02:48:20 <Gregor> zzo38: Oh, didn't see the latest edits.
02:48:39 <Gregor> zzo38: In that case, use /bin/bash and do something like cat <<EOF, then the content, then EOF
02:49:11 <Gregor> zzo38: Alternatively, just make an HTML file, then access it by the 'view' command: .../wiki/view/<filename>
02:49:32 <oerjan> hm is (! _) `seq` x = x a legal definition of seq in haskell...
02:50:15 <zzo38> OK, thanks. But still: Why doesn't #!/bin/grep -v ^#! works? It works on the MinGW command-line if the command is entered manually on the MinGW command-line.
02:50:30 <Gregor> zzo38: Then mingw doesn't handle chebang lines properly.
02:50:35 <Gregor> Oh
02:50:39 <Gregor> If the command is entered manually.
02:50:55 <Gregor> zzo38: chebang lines don't support multiple arguments. Everything after the command is taken as one argument, potentially with spaces.
02:50:56 <zzo38> MinGW creates the same error if you try to execute the file.
02:51:10 <zzo38> O, so that's why.
02:52:54 <alise> Gregor: It's shebang.
02:53:06 <oerjan> oh wait ! patterns are an extension
02:53:09 <Gregor> alise: Is there really a correct spelling of a word that's nonsense? :P
02:53:11 <pikhq> Yeah, definitely shebang.
02:53:19 <pikhq> Gregor: It's not nonsense.
02:53:26 <alise> Chebang is an archaic spelling of shebang, i.e. stuff and lots and everything and whatnot, but shebang as jargon is spelled with an s.
02:53:26 <pikhq> Gregor: It's a contraction of "hash-bang".
02:53:33 <pikhq> Where hash is # and bang is !
02:53:47 <alise> And because it lets you say "I accidentally the whole shebang"
02:53:58 <oerjan> chez-le-bang
02:54:12 <Gregor> pikhq: Quay? I thought it was just the onomatopoeia, like che-BANG!
02:54:15 <pikhq> The fact that it overlaps with "stuff" and such is... I'm not sure what.
02:55:04 <Gregor> I still use chebang, so fleh you :P
02:55:54 <alise> Shebangsexual, i.e. she bangs the shebang.
02:56:03 <Gregor> X-D
02:56:04 <alise> *she bangs shebangs
02:56:10 <alise> (why did I do it the worse way first?)
02:56:12 <Gregor> She bangs the whole chebang
02:59:48 <MissPiggy> alise they are flying into a sunset
03:00:20 <alise> are they breeding
03:00:32 <MissPiggy> not yet lol
03:00:44 <MissPiggy> they're just putting up a tent or something
03:00:44 <alise> the space went off
03:00:46 <alise> i am bored now
03:01:46 <zzo38> Huh? I created a file and now when I try to edit it, it is blank. But other than that, the file still works.
03:02:39 <Gregor> Oh?
03:02:53 <MissPiggy> they're in space still...
03:03:00 <Gregor> zzo38: Should probably move this convo to #hackiki :P
03:03:12 <zzo38> OK
03:04:38 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:06:10 <Gregor> I don't think he really had to leave here to go there :P
03:06:36 <oerjan> actually he might, didn't his personal irc client only allow 1 channel per server?
03:15:16 <Gregor> Possibly. Actually, wasn't it similar to my RawIRC? That is, he could be on multiple channels, but since he's just getting raw messages, it'd be confusing.
03:17:54 <alise> it is like that, yes
03:20:39 <pikhq> He is rather... Odd.
03:20:56 <Gregor> Yes
03:21:53 <alise> You don't say.
03:25:12 <oerjan> well _someone_ has to help the rest of us feel almost normal
03:28:24 -!- coppro has joined.
03:34:17 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:34:38 -!- alise has joined.
03:39:49 <alise> http://pure-lang.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pure/lib/quasiquote.pure quasiquoting in Pure, with syntax, implemented inside the language
03:42:57 -!- jcp has joined.
03:44:36 <MissPiggy> cool!
03:49:04 <alise> MissPiggy: yeah that's what you get with flexible ops + term rewriting + a simpler quoting operation (in this case, ' = quote)
03:49:40 <MissPiggy> alise ummm question is..
03:49:56 <MissPiggy> would you still have a curry-howard interpretation with dependent term rewriting?
03:50:10 <alise> well, the lambda calculus is a term rewriting system
03:50:27 <MissPiggy> but no like this crazy stuff
03:50:31 <alise> terms are close enough to functions with slightly odd behaviour that i'm sure you could formulate a very similar isomorphism
03:50:43 <alise> MissPiggy: well this crazy stuff is just because pure has quote :P
03:50:47 <alise> and because
03:50:47 <alise> def quasiquote x = qq (quote x);
03:50:48 <alise> is a macro
03:50:56 <alise> so quasiquote 2+2 -> qq (quote 2+2)
03:51:08 <alise> it's actually just an ast processor, more or less.
03:51:59 <alise> MissPiggy: btw term languages solve the expression problem
03:52:24 <alise> untyped languages like Pure do it by letting you extend terms, and having sugar for "typed" things
03:52:33 <alise> and since terms are untyped you can extend them at will
03:52:49 <alise> ok, so there's no _obligation_ to defined all the terms in the table for the new row
03:52:53 <alise> but it almost solves it
03:53:03 <alise> same thing in my typed one, basically
03:55:14 <MissPiggy> loll how does it solve expression problem
03:55:18 <MissPiggy> by the way
03:55:21 <alise> because you can extend functions basically
03:55:24 <alise> almost same thing
03:55:29 <alise> (with values of different types)
03:55:33 <alise> (for args)
03:55:36 <MissPiggy> does expression problem demand that the compiler tells you if there's a cell in the matrix missing?
03:55:46 <alise> yes, that's the missing piece
03:55:50 <alise> otherwise it breaks safety
03:55:58 <alise> because you pass it to some code going oh it's a table i know all this will go just fine
03:55:59 <alise> KRR
03:56:01 <alise> UNDEFINED FUNCTION
03:56:02 <alise> BEEP BEEP BEEP
03:56:06 <alise> WHAT DO I DO WHAT DO I *DO*
03:56:34 <coppro> DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER
03:56:50 <MissPiggy> mm
03:56:55 <MissPiggy> it's easy to solve this in lisp :P
03:57:07 <MissPiggy> I doubt any language is better than lisp for the expression problem
03:57:17 <alise> apart from one that's built for it...
03:58:37 <MissPiggy> oh yeah that's ture
03:58:39 <MissPiggy> true*
03:59:12 <alise> i really wish programming language manuals were written better
03:59:44 <alise> I'm not sure why programmers tend to be bad writers; good English style is the same procedure as good programming style, just plugging in another set of idioms.
03:59:47 <Gregor> Eh, they're usually written by programmers :P
03:59:48 <alise> If you can organise programs, why not prose?
03:59:54 <MissPiggy> yeah I should practice wrting
04:00:03 <coppro> Because prose requires eloquence
04:00:13 <Gregor> alise: I'd say it's more a matter of perspective.
04:00:34 <coppro> merely stringing together a complete and accurate description of a language is what we call an International Standard
04:00:46 <alise> coppro: Does it, though? Eloquence seems, to me, to be a rather less wishy-washy and emotional thing as everyone says it is: the creators of elegant programming languages should be able to write elegant text about it, because it's the same thing.
04:01:03 <coppro> It's hardly the same thing!
04:01:08 <alise> Also, standards are not manuals. Standards can be eloquent too, but it matters much less, as they should be as formal as possible.
04:01:47 <alise> coppro: In programs, we organise definitions in a certain way, split definitions up in a certain way, name variables in a certain way, order our functions' arguments in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the program read easier.
04:02:24 <alise> In prose, we organise text in a certain way, split text up in a certain way, (ok, that one isn't applicable), order our text in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the text read easier.
04:02:26 <coppro> none of that applies to great prose
04:02:36 <alise> I'm not asking for great prose, just good writing.
04:02:40 <alise> There /is/ a difference.
04:02:47 <coppro> good prose, even
04:02:59 <coppro> prose constructed by formula can be horrible
04:03:05 <alise> Certainly, a manual is not the domain of prose; but why is it not the domain of good writing?
04:03:13 <coppro> a manual is absolutely in the domain of prose
04:03:19 <alise> coppro: And we don't write idiomatic code by formula, either.
04:03:34 <coppro> but we do!
04:03:48 <alise> But code is basically prose.
04:03:52 <coppro> hardly
04:03:53 <alise> It's just in a different language.
04:03:58 <coppro> prose has a very specific definition
04:04:07 <coppro> I'm not sure what that is, but it's specific
04:04:13 <coppro> and I know programming is not it
04:04:28 <alise> Whatever you say, I certainly think I write prose, text, whatever you wish to call whatever subset we are talking about, with the same idiomatic organisation as I do code.
04:04:33 <coppro> good prose and good programming in fact require the opposite sets of skills
04:05:05 <coppro> good prose generally needs a formulated overall concept, while the individual portions are filled in by the creativity and ability of the writer
04:05:38 <coppro> good programming needs a creative and abled programmer to set up the concept, at which point the individual portions could be completed by any semi-competent programmer
04:06:15 <alise> No; units of code call libraries, they don't "fill them in".
04:06:23 <coppro> I don't mean like that
04:06:35 <coppro> Interface design is the tricky part of programming
04:06:39 <alise> Anyway, whatever; I can write good code and prose, so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I clearly should write the greatest manual for the greatest language. :P
04:06:42 <coppro> A good interface leads itself to be coded easily
04:07:01 <coppro> In prose, the opposite is true
04:07:16 <coppro> hey, I can too!
04:07:28 <alise> I use more semicolons than you.
04:07:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:07:54 <coppro> Disagree; grep the logs.
04:07:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
04:08:52 <Sgeo> Since I don't do GUIs, does that mean I'm a bad programmer?
04:09:10 <alise> Sgeo: interface design what it means fail you
04:09:16 <alise> oh god, I wrote a huge line and it disappeared and no control-z
04:09:18 * alise writes it again
04:09:42 <coppro> Sgeo: It means you're a sane programmer
04:09:51 <alise> coppro: he thought you meant 'interface design' = gui design
04:09:55 <coppro> oh
04:10:06 <coppro> ah, your previous sentence makes sense now
04:10:47 <alise> I refined my semicolon usage by, paradoxically, ceasing to use it altogether; it was popping itself in to places where it was awkward, and I felt I was using it far too much, so I decided to abstain from it in the hopes that it would improve my writing. It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places, places that had seemed awkward in its absence.
04:11:28 <coppro> I think that should have been an em dash
04:11:36 <alise> Where?
04:11:41 <coppro> instead of the semicolon
04:11:47 <alise> There were two in that sentence.
04:11:55 <coppro> first sentence
04:12:01 <coppro> second also, actually
04:12:26 <alise> I try to avoid the em-dash, anyway; it's a very heavy piece of punctuation, and since I tend to write sentences whose clauses interlink, I postulate that it makes a sentence harder to read most of the time--for me, at least.
04:12:31 <coppro> second is certainly not an appropriate use of the semicolon; the two statements it separates should, on their own, be valid sentences.
04:12:42 <alise> And yes, that was two hyphens; I haven't got any nice Compose setup here.
04:12:53 <coppro> I just use a single hyphen
04:12:57 <alise> coppro: Ah, I criticised ais523 for that once; he gave me a sound thrashing.
04:13:12 <alise> Semicolons do not have to be able to be replaced by a full stop.
04:13:29 <coppro> For the most part, they should
04:13:33 <alise> He presented irrefutable proof which has slipped out of my mind.
04:13:58 <coppro> there are other uses of the semicolon which are valid (for instance, in lists)
04:14:09 <alise> Anyway, a semicolon followed by "and" is quite often a useful construct, though a prescriptivist would argue that starting a sentence with "And" is abhorrent. The same goes for "but".
04:14:20 <alise> coppro: I am referring to sentences.
04:14:31 <coppro> I don't agree it should necessarily be replaceable by a full stop, but it needs to separate full clauses
04:15:22 <alise> I think my usage was correct. I might change it, if you show that it wasn't, as long as it isn't prescriptivist mumblings.
04:15:30 <coppro> hmm, actually, I think I'd punctuate that sentence as follows
04:15:32 <alise> So, then, you'll have to show it's wrong as in confusing or awkward.
04:15:41 <alise> Or incredibly uncommon.
04:15:42 <coppro> "It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places -- places that had seemed awkward in its absence."
04:16:15 <alise> Indeed, I believe that the first time I wrote that sentence, "frequency; but" was how it went.
04:16:41 <coppro> it was
04:16:51 <alise> Personally, I think that em-dashes should only be used when the link between the two sides is weak, and the right side is heavy.
04:17:10 <alise> Or, of course, to serve as an alternative to parentheses for not-quite parenthical remarks.
04:17:16 <alise> *parenthetical
04:17:22 <coppro> In that case, I think the em dash is appropriate because you repeat the noun
04:18:50 <alise> Perhaps. I'd argue that a reader, rather than someone obviously looking to critique (can IRC facilitate *anything* that isn't competitive? :) ), wouldn't find it awkward.
04:19:06 <alise> Something that *is* awkward: smilies before a right parenthesis.
04:19:16 <coppro> yes!
04:19:18 <alise> After that abomination, I think ":))" will now be my preferred option.
04:19:31 <coppro> yeah, I usually go that route
04:20:49 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/541/
04:20:56 <alise> Incidentally, I have the urge to substitute the / ligatures wherever those two letters appear.
04:21:04 <alise> I'm not even sure if that's correct, but the urge nevertheless appears.
04:22:12 <coppro> It's correct in most cases where they appear adjacent
04:22:34 <alise> Oh, and to endow words like "premptive" with a diresis.
04:22:54 <alise> (Interesting fact: onomatopia is not actually onomatopic.)
04:23:09 <alise> Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example cofficint), but for compound words there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zeeend (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend.[3]
04:23:20 <alise> This is zeeend for you, my sea-duck-loving friend.
04:23:52 * oerjan swats alise -----###
04:24:04 <alise> Gregor: What was that wonderful free verse you wrote about free verse?
04:24:23 <alise> It ended "The problem with free verse, it seems, to me / is that it's just an excuse for ? to write prose and call it poetry.", I believe.
04:25:21 <coppro> Free verse is just a way to write prose with the structure being a piece of the text
04:25:33 <alise> It was a joke, you see.
04:25:53 <alise> It was RHYMING free verse!
04:25:54 <Gregor> alise: Can't find it :(
04:26:07 <alise> Gregor: Grep logs for "call it poetry"?
04:26:14 <Gregor> That's what I'm trying.
04:26:25 <alise> Here's a really boring holy war: Single or double quotes for main quotations?
04:26:49 <alise> I say double; single quotes are just too thin and light for that purpose. I prefer nesting alternately. True Britons will go for single quotes, though.
04:26:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:27:26 <MissPiggy> is 'rakefile' a joke?
04:27:35 <MissPiggy> like the rubyists are making fun of engrish?
04:28:08 <alise> No, rake = Ruby mAKE.
04:28:24 <alise> If it was Lakefile, perhaps you'd have a point. :P
04:29:01 <alise> coppro: Also: uh, I had better think of some typographical choice to put towards you.
04:29:03 <MissPiggy> lakefire
04:29:10 <oerjan> Can haiku be prose? Is this a useful concept? Is it just nonsense?
04:29:53 <alise> coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing?
04:30:47 <oerjan> makefile, not wall
04:31:14 <alise> coppro: You know, I never said /not speaking/ was an option. :P
04:32:05 <oerjan> alise: he's an american. they seem to think remaining silent is some kind of _right_
04:32:15 <alise> He's Canadian, actually...
04:32:24 <oerjan> ah
04:32:47 <oerjan> darn i was reading his server location as his real one
04:33:11 <alise> Just ping him a lot. coppro, that is.
04:33:44 <oerjan> hm i thought lindbohm was only for ipv6, but i seem to be on it
04:34:11 <Gregor> alise: I can't found it, but I did find this: <GregorR> Of course, that isn't fair. Formula for rap: Take two notes, repeat 600 times while making racist and sexist remarks that rhyme. Formula for pop: Take two CHORDS, repeat 600 times while (sort of) SINGING sexist remarks that rhyme.
04:34:38 <alise> I can'tfound it!
04:34:46 <alise> Confound? Can'tfound? Laugh? Oh well.
04:34:53 <alise> Gregor: Did you search for only lines by you?
04:34:56 <alise> Perhaps you were on a different nick.
04:35:05 <Gregor> Hm, good point.
04:35:05 <Gregor> Bleh
04:35:17 <Gregor> I can't found it in that I can't create it, like founding a city, y'know? :P
04:35:18 <alise> Just search for "call it poetry".
04:35:27 <alise> WAIT
04:35:31 <alise> Just search for "call it ptry".
04:35:37 <alise> Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1
04:35:50 <alise> it isn't is it
04:36:00 <alise> because it's o-e
04:36:27 <Gregor> Free verse is better than rhyming, \ For there's no need to worry of timing, \ The problem you see, \ With free verse, to me, \ Is that it's just an excuse for lazy people to write prose and call it poetry.
04:36:41 <Gregor> The joke was that the last line was not the right number of syllables :P
04:36:45 <alise> Yes.
04:37:17 <Gregor> But you were right, that was the thing to grep for >_>
04:37:52 <alise> As opposed to "hot bukkake norse fish mario sonic william howard taft".
04:37:58 <Gregor> (I was using the term "blank verse" instead of "free verse" there, but was grepping for "free verse" >_< )
04:38:22 <alise> Well, free verse is the term you used in the poem, so it should have found it.
04:38:34 <Gregor> No, I used the term blank verse in the poem.
04:38:40 <Gregor> I just rewrote it as free verse here :P
04:38:46 <alise> Ah, okay.
04:39:08 <alise> Blank verse ≠ free verse, however.
04:39:25 <Gregor> No, 'snot, but they both happen to fit the theme.
04:39:32 <alise> Blank verse has meter, though, so free verse is probably better to use.
04:39:44 <Gregor> Ohyeah
04:39:51 <oerjan> There was a young lady called Jenny \ Whose limericks weren't worth a penny \ They started out sound \ But somehow she found \ That whenever she tried to write any \ She always wrote one line too many.
04:40:02 <Gregor> oerjan: Ha
04:40:21 <Gregor> oerjan: That's so hilariously awkward to read.
04:40:29 <oerjan> how so?
04:40:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:40:37 <Gregor> Because I'm expecting it to be a limerick.
04:40:38 <Gregor> Then it isn't.
04:40:57 <oerjan> great
04:41:12 <alise> There was an old man \ From Peru, whose lim'ricks all \ Look'd like haiku. He
04:41:12 <alise> Said with a laugh "I \ Cut them in half, the pay is \ Much better for two."
04:41:54 <Gregor> alise: Outstanding.
04:42:07 <alise> There once was a [person] from [place] \ Whose [body part] was [special case]. \ When [event] would occur, \ It would cause [him or her] \ To violate [law of time/space].
04:42:09 <coppro> sorry, alise, I was watching those sporty things
04:42:11 <alise> A woman in liquor production \ Owns a still of exquisite construction. \ The alcohol boils \ Through magnetic coils. \ She says that it's "proof by induction."
04:42:27 <alise> A UNIX saleslady, Lenore, \ Enjoys work, but she likes the beach more. \ She found a good way \ To combine work and play: \ She sells C shells by the seashore.
04:42:28 <coppro> I love that site
04:42:35 <alise> And, you know, every other limerick in the top 150.
04:42:39 <alise> (http://limerickdb.com/?top150)
04:43:20 <alise> There once was a small juicy orange, \ ...fuck.
04:43:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
04:44:50 <alise> There once was an X from place B, \ That satisfied predicate P, \ He or she did thing A, \ In an adjective way, \ Resulting in circumstance C.
04:45:11 <alise> coppro: Anyway, answer all the questions I queued up for you. :P
04:45:23 <alise> <alise> coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing?
04:45:24 <alise> <alise> Just search for "call it ptry".
04:45:24 <alise> <alise> Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1
04:45:24 <alise> <alise> it isn't is it
04:45:24 <alise> <alise> because it's o-e
04:45:30 <alise> Only two, actually. :P
04:45:44 <Gregor> alise: Weird how well "adjective" can sound like an adjective ...
04:45:50 <alise> Gregor: Yeah.
04:46:07 <alise> He walked pronoun to the front door.
04:46:24 <coppro> alise: Not a fan of &c., and poëtry!
04:46:25 <alise> "Yes," said Proper Noun, "I'll see you after dinner."
04:46:55 <alise> coppro: Indeed, &c. appears most strange until you realise that if you pick the right typeface and set it in italics, you see what looks like Etc. (but with a curly E).
04:47:06 <alise> It looks beautiful, but why? Because the ampersand used to be a ligature for "et".
04:47:50 <coppro> right
04:49:02 <GreaseMonkey> you could do s/pronoun/adverb/
04:49:46 <alise> BAD POETRY #4
04:49:47 <alise> Premptive potry tries to avoid \ a bad course of action, to make null and void \ such an undesirable path it is, we see \ the future that follows it is misery.
04:49:51 <alise> THIS WAS
04:49:53 <alise> BAD POETRY
04:49:55 <alise> with alise
04:49:57 <alise> THE TOPIC WAS
04:50:06 <GreaseMonkey> "MORE BAD POETRY"
04:50:07 <alise> Bad poems purely for the sake of using two diathingies in two words juxtaposed.
04:50:20 <alise> GreaseMonkey: Oops. Of course, I meant adverb.
04:50:32 <coppro> Oh freddled gruntbuggly? Thy micturations are to me \ As plurdled gabbleblotchis on a lurgid bee.
04:50:43 <GreaseMonkey> pronoun can work, as in "he walked me" or "he walked her"
04:51:03 <coppro> alise: There's more where that came from
04:52:06 <coppro> ... I killed her
04:54:27 -!- rocketman has joined.
04:54:28 -!- rocketman has quit (Changing host).
04:54:28 -!- rocketman has joined.
04:55:35 * coppro will have to complain to Wikipedia that there's a lethal weapon on their page
04:55:43 <augur> what are yoy kids talking about
04:55:49 <augur> you*
04:56:26 * MissPiggy awnts to install fortress
04:57:10 * augur installs MissPiggy's fortress
04:57:12 <augur> ;o ;o ;o
04:57:17 <MissPiggy> lol
04:57:47 <alise> coppro: http://imgur.com/7jvO1.png Two fancy ampersands; I prefer the latter.
04:57:50 <Sgeo> MissPiggy, there's not much to actually install
04:58:05 <alise> They both look like "etc.", though.
04:58:06 <coppro> alise: Yeah, I really like the latter
04:58:12 <alise> Sgeo: He mens the programming language.
04:58:16 <Sgeo> Oh
04:58:19 <coppro> In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent
04:58:22 <Gregor> alise: Spam, spam egg spam and spam.
04:58:32 <alise> coppro: URW Palladio L.
04:58:45 <alise> Oblique, of course.
04:58:54 <alise> Erm, no.
04:58:55 <alise> Italic.
04:58:59 <alise> I always mix those two up.
04:59:34 <augur> who he
04:59:53 <coppro> also, it's good to see that you've recovered
05:00:01 <alise> Who recovered from what?
05:00:01 <rocketman> alise: use google
05:00:08 <alise> And what do you mean, who he?
05:00:08 <rocketman> alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=And+what+do+you+mean%2C+who+he
05:00:21 <alise> ...and when did rocketman appear out of nowhere?
05:00:21 <rocketman> alise: try google.
05:00:28 <alise> Tset?
05:00:28 <rocketman> alise: GIYF!!
05:00:42 <alise> x?
05:00:42 <rocketman> alise: never heard of google?
05:00:47 <augur> MissPiggy: remind me are you cis- or trans-girl?
05:00:47 <rocketman> augur: try google.
05:00:49 <alise> coppro: say "x?"
05:00:53 <alise> ah, never mind
05:00:56 <augur> rocketman: what
05:01:01 <alise> rocketman is logged in as fax
05:01:02 <augur> :|
05:01:03 <alise> apparently a bot
05:01:03 <alise> a?
05:01:04 <rocketman> alise: use google
05:01:04 <alise> a?
05:01:04 <rocketman> alise: use google
05:01:04 <alise> a?
05:01:04 <rocketman> alise: http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/
05:01:04 <alise> a?
05:01:04 <rocketman> alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=a
05:01:05 <coppro> alise: you recovered from the poetry
05:01:06 <alise> a?
05:01:06 <rocketman> alise: use google
05:01:09 <alise> coppro: ah.
05:01:29 <alise> <coppro> alise: Yeah, I really like the latter
05:01:30 <alise> <coppro> In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent
05:01:34 <alise> Really like = not abhorrent!
05:01:46 <coppro> Right!
05:02:28 <MissPiggy> http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 - space
05:02:37 <coppro> alise: If you bothered to read the logs, I thought I'd killed you
05:02:42 <augur> MissPiggy! :|
05:02:45 <MissPiggy> hello
05:02:48 <alise> No logs, I was there, just missed the sentence.
05:02:51 <coppro> ah
05:02:53 <alise> I was just typing out the ampersandy things. :P
05:02:57 * oerjan swats MissPiggy for joining an annoybot -----###
05:03:00 <alise> MissPiggy: turn off that bot, thanks.
05:03:02 <augur> answer my question. :|
05:03:09 <MissPiggy> it's supposed to be HELPFUL
05:03:19 <alise> That's nice; turn it off.
05:03:40 <MissPiggy> :(
05:03:44 <coppro> Does anyone actually have ops here?
05:03:44 <rocketman> coppro: never heard of google?
05:03:45 <MissPiggy> can't you just learn to love it
05:03:49 <coppro> no
05:03:59 <augur> MissPiggy: :|
05:04:01 <MissPiggy> but I don't know how to make it leave without making it leave all channels
05:04:02 <coppro> it might be useful in, say, #math
05:04:13 <MissPiggy> :)))
05:04:13 <MissPiggy> yes
05:04:15 <MissPiggy> that's the point
05:04:16 <coppro> You're in #esoteric. You should be smart enough to work that out
05:04:36 -!- rocketman has left (?).
05:04:39 <MissPiggy> c
05:04:44 <MissPiggy> coppro you are right :O
05:04:47 <alise> coppro: fizzie is semi-active and has ops; lament has ops.
05:04:57 <coppro> neat
05:04:59 <alise> Maybe Aardappel still has ops or something.
05:05:11 <alise> But they never use their op powers, unless someone just said that they never use them.
05:05:25 <alise> I quite like the anarchy here, we're alright at self-organising.
05:05:30 <alise> I wish alright didn't flag up as a spelling error.
05:05:55 <oerjan> alright is all ways a spelling error
05:06:02 <alise> :-)
05:06:24 <MissPiggy> well im upset that you guys didn't like my bot
05:06:28 <oerjan> english, the language of consistent inconsistency
05:06:41 <MissPiggy> I am trying to follow the footsteps of wolfram|alpha
05:06:43 <MissPiggy> but in IRC form
05:07:08 <oerjan> MissPiggy: people don't like bots that intrude on their usual conversations. is that a problem to understand?
05:07:16 <MissPiggy> lol
05:07:26 <alise> oerjan: WHAT
05:07:54 <oerjan> alise: WHOM
05:07:58 <alise> oerjan: WHAT
05:08:20 <oerjan> alise: WHOSOEVER
05:08:20 <MissPiggy> it's an experiment
05:08:26 <alise> oerjan: WHAT
05:08:27 <alise> MissPiggy: WHAT
05:08:32 <MissPiggy> maybe I should have made it oly reply occasionally
05:08:36 <MissPiggy> then people wouldn't notice it was a bot
05:08:36 <alise> MissPiggy: WHAT
05:08:38 <alise> MissPiggy: WHAT
05:08:43 <MissPiggy> what
05:08:49 <alise> MissPiggy: WHAT
05:08:59 <MissPiggy> lol
05:09:03 <alise> MissPiggy: WHAT
05:09:05 <oerjan> MissPiggy: Gregor already did that yesterday
05:09:10 <oerjan> i think it was Gregor
05:09:12 <MissPiggy> oh??
05:09:13 <alise> OERJWHAT
05:09:16 <alise> OERJWHAT
05:09:17 <MissPiggy> was it a google helpful bot?
05:09:19 <alise> MISWHAT
05:09:58 <oerjan> no, just a markov bot, except it sometimes replied without being addressed
05:10:38 <oerjan> ALISWAT -----###
05:10:39 <alise> oerjan: was it a except it then people wouldn't experiment
05:10:53 <oerjan> grammar fail?
05:11:54 <oerjan> MissPiggy: also, hackego is already google helpful
05:12:03 <oerjan> everything's been done before, you see
05:12:07 <MissPiggy> :(
05:12:11 <MissPiggy> hackego: ?
05:12:12 <alise> EVERYTHING
05:12:29 <oerjan> `google snugglebunnies
05:12:35 <HackEgo> Amazon.com: Snuggle Bunnies (0697123000408): LC Falken, Lisa McCue: Books. ... The illustrations in the Snuggle Bunnies book are so cute and adorable! ... \ www.amazon.com > ... > [13]Children's Books > [14]Animals > [15]Rabbits - [16]Cached - [17]Similar
05:12:37 <MissPiggy> that's not the same :P
05:12:40 <MissPiggy> mine just accosts people
05:13:29 <Sgeo> Why am I not cooking or eating right now?
05:13:31 <alise> "I'll accost your mother."
05:13:39 <alise> Sgeo: kitchen is that way ->
05:13:41 <alise> Sgeo: woman
05:14:20 <oerjan> This is obviously some strange usage of the word "helpful" that I hadn't previously been aware of.
05:14:25 <MissPiggy> :D
05:14:41 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ZwnmJgC-g&feature=dir
05:14:46 <augur> squee
05:15:20 <augur> oh, hes straight. LAME
05:15:30 <alise> augur is so predictable
05:15:45 <augur> :P
05:15:53 <augur> well look at him!
05:15:55 <augur> hes adorable!
05:16:18 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/user/charlieissocoollike
05:16:20 <augur> look at him.
05:16:21 <augur> so adorable.
05:16:25 <MissPiggy> he'snot adorable :|
05:16:44 * MissPiggy hopes it's not somehow, someone in here
05:16:45 <alise> fortress is so cool
05:16:53 <alise> makes me wanna sex it. in a platonic way
05:17:20 <augur> MissPiggy: its not someone in here. and he TOTALLY is adorable
05:17:24 <augur> hes also british
05:17:28 <augur> therefore doubly adorable
05:17:38 * Sgeo googles
05:17:52 <alise> Sgeo: http://projectfortress.sun.com/
05:18:06 <Sgeo> sun.com still exists/
05:18:09 <Sgeo> o.O
05:18:17 <alise> yes, sun.com just redirects to oracle.com
05:18:30 <alise> Sgeo: glorious LaTeX-typeset two-dimensional mathematical notation syntax with ASCII equivalent, everything's redefinable more or less, implicit paralellism (!), transactions, decent type-system
05:18:41 <alise> designed for high-performance numerical computing, like fortran
05:18:46 <alise> but fancy and CS too
05:19:12 <augur> god look at him
05:19:14 <augur> hes so adorable
05:19:17 * Sgeo needs to go eat
05:19:19 <alise> hey i'm british too
05:19:21 <alise> :P
05:19:21 <MissPiggy> augur you are wrong lol
05:19:28 <augur> liar
05:19:32 <pikhq> alise: And nicely typeset.
05:19:38 <alise> yes, I am that
05:19:47 <pikhq> :)
05:20:06 <pikhq> This is highly unusual...
05:20:26 <pikhq> For the first time in memory, I've actually *needed* to stop studying.
05:20:29 <Gregor> Did somebody ask for ...
05:20:42 <oerjan> Gregor: NOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:20:43 * Gregor taps his foot, waiting for his bot to log in.
05:20:43 -!- virtuLORD has joined.
05:20:44 <virtuLORD> And when he had done this, and had anointed him king over israel two years continued in their hearts of the person of the covenant, that i may go up, but the virgins that follow him. Of the sons of elnaim, and jethma a moabite, eliel, and obed, and jasiel of masobia.
05:20:50 <pikhq> Not "no longer felt like", not "realise that further study won't help", but "absolutely must *stop*".
05:20:56 <MissPiggy> cool
05:21:05 <Gregor> Gee, I'm megalagged.
05:21:13 <oerjan> virtuLORD: ping
05:21:13 <virtuLORD> oerjan: He exhorts to charity, humility and all thy soul.
05:21:18 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:21:36 <alise> virtuLORD: Aye.
05:21:39 <virtuLORD> alise: For with certain new and unheard of devices he hath spoken of by the river's brink.
05:21:41 -!- Gregor has joined.
05:21:55 <alise> virtuLORD: MegaHAL? You certainly punctuate well, except from proper nouns.
05:21:55 <virtuLORD> alise: Except the lord had commanded him, he put in my hand: unless i bring an inheritance to his proper ability: and immediately he came to najoth, in ramatha.
05:22:09 <alise> virtuLORD: Sexual intercourse
05:22:11 <virtuLORD> alise: And the chaldeans that fight against the south, to the twelve tribes, serving night and day, for he is defiled shall eat the fruit of a wise man hateth not the stroke of their heresies. Others have explained these locusts, and of the lord said: thou shalt not pass over thee, till thou know not to death. And the king of egypt, and upon the altar.
05:22:41 <oerjan> virtuLORD: doom!
05:22:42 <virtuLORD> oerjan: The statutes of amri, etc. . .The foregoing verse, to ver. 91, Was not healed by him and give him joy.
05:23:00 <augur> got i cant watch this kid
05:23:02 <augur> its depressing
05:23:06 <pikhq> virtuLORD: Transubstantiation.
05:23:07 <virtuLORD> pikhq: Son of man, what shall i make thy enemies for they are not to them that are round about it: and he was well favoured, and of idaias; thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation.
05:23:08 * oerjan thought virtuLORD tried to use the words you gave it
05:23:14 <oerjan> ah
05:23:15 <MissPiggy> augur o_O he's not even attractive
05:23:20 <Gregor> oerjan: It /tries/
05:23:22 <augur> hes ADORABLE
05:23:22 <pikhq> ... I didn't know that word was actually in the Bible.
05:23:22 <alise> "thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation." xD
05:23:31 <alise> clearly that's from another christian source
05:23:32 <oerjan> wait this must mean that the bible does not _contain_ the word "doom"
05:23:36 <alise> "which plainly implies transubstantiation"
05:23:41 <MissPiggy> augur you don't listen to reason!!
05:23:48 <oerjan> how can this be?
05:23:49 <alise> pikhq: aren't you christians meant to know things about the bible :P
05:23:50 <pikhq> I could've sworn the entire doctrine was a Catholic invention.
05:23:56 <alise> virtuLORD: catholic
05:23:56 <virtuLORD> alise: Sion. . .The catholic church; which shall flourish for ever. The unjust shall be no rejoicing nor shouting in the covenant of the lamb. And he broke and distributed to every one from his evil ways.
05:24:07 <alise> The bible itself said it. Catholic church = awesome!
05:24:09 <MissPiggy> lol you did not
05:24:09 <Sgeo> pikhq is a Christian?
05:24:16 <alise> yes
05:24:30 <alise> *is Christian, no?
05:24:41 <pikhq> A rather unusual one, but si.
05:24:52 <augur> pikhq is indeed a christian
05:24:52 <virtuLORD> augur: And elias said again to achis king of israel, for a remembrance of a christian.
05:25:02 <augur> whats unusual about him is that he believes HE is jesus.
05:25:16 <pikhq> augur: *Hah*.
05:25:21 <Gregor> virtuLORD has a few things that aren't actually in the bible because the version I snagged from project Gutenberg had some commentary I was unwilling to filter.
05:25:22 <pikhq> Though that was my high school nickname...
05:25:26 <pikhq> (the beard and long hair do it)
05:25:33 <alise> well does christianity + singularity at the same time
05:25:34 <pikhq> Gregor: That explains it.
05:25:35 <alise> which is pretty impressive
05:25:42 <MissPiggy> alise huh?
05:25:42 <alise> the most religion most people can forge out of singularitarianism is pantheism
05:25:45 <augur> jesus didnt have long hair, in all likelihood.
05:25:59 <alise> i think pikhq said something about the singularity having the spiritual essence of jesus or something
05:26:06 <augur> alise: or the belief that god is an AI
05:26:06 <Gregor> Eww, wait, pikhq is religious? We'll have to deal with that at some poitn.
05:26:07 <pikhq> alise: Uh, not I.
05:26:08 <Gregor> *point
05:26:13 <alise> pikhq: it was like that but in less silly terms iirc
05:26:16 <pikhq> I just think the singularity is pretty awesome.
05:26:19 <alise> Gregor: I know right!
05:26:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Vaguely.
05:26:32 <alise> pikhq: so you want to live forever and then die and go to heaven which is awesome?
05:26:33 <MissPiggy> what does god and AI have to do with anything
05:26:38 <alise> it's the 0 at the end of the recurring 9s
05:26:41 <pikhq> alise: Hahahah.
05:26:47 <augur> MissPiggy: well since god IS an AI, everything!
05:26:49 <oerjan> virtuLORD: smite!
05:26:49 <virtuLORD> oerjan: Neither shalt thou smite it.
05:26:55 <oerjan> aww :(
05:26:55 <MissPiggy> how can jesus be singularity
05:26:55 <Gregor> virtuLORD: We are all heathens!
05:26:57 <virtuLORD> Gregor: Who made the whole work of the heathens.
05:26:59 <MissPiggy> this is so confusing guys
05:27:04 <pikhq> Indeed, that is the Lord's province.
05:27:10 -!- virtuLORD has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:27:14 <pikhq> (smiting)
05:27:19 <augur> MissPiggy: well dont worry your pretty little head
05:27:22 <oerjan> MissPiggy: well just as the LORD, he is ... dammit
05:27:25 <pikhq> Anyways.
05:27:27 <oerjan> *ask
05:27:41 * oerjan swats muphry -----###
05:27:46 <pikhq> augur: The popular image of Jesus has a beard, brown, long hair, and blue eyes. And is Caucasian.
05:27:57 <pikhq> In other words, the popular image of Jesus is me.
05:27:58 -!- virtuchuck has joined.
05:27:59 <virtuchuck> Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris invented black. In fact he invented the entire spectrum of visible light. Except pink. Tom cruise invented pink.
05:28:06 <augur> pikhq: POPULAR IMAGES ARE IRRELEVANT
05:28:11 <MissPiggy> lolol
05:28:14 <augur> JESUS WAS A JEW
05:28:15 <MissPiggy> virtuchuck: NO
05:28:15 <virtuchuck> MissPiggy: Chuck norris uses a night light. Not because chuck norris destroyed the periodic table, because chuck norris 20 minutes to watch 60 minutes.
05:28:20 <augur> OY GEVALT
05:28:23 <pikhq> augur: WELL AWARE.
05:28:24 <MissPiggy> lol
05:28:25 <MissPiggy> virtuchuck: NO
05:28:25 <virtuchuck> MissPiggy: Chuck norris played russian roulette with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs,
05:28:26 <virtuchuck> d rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun.
05:28:35 <pikhq> augur: AND THAT'S YIDDISH. DIDN'T EXIST THEN.
05:28:47 <Gregor> "He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun."
05:28:50 <Sgeo> O-Chul could kick Chuck Norris's ass
05:28:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Totally.
05:29:00 <Sgeo> erm, I actually said a word like that here, o.O
05:29:05 <MissPiggy> oh god
05:29:09 <MissPiggy> that was so funy
05:29:17 <MissPiggy> about the protein shake
05:29:24 <alise> i'm still laughing
05:29:24 <alise> help
05:29:50 <Sgeo> I'm going to go make food now
05:29:52 <augur> O GAIN
05:29:56 <augur> ..
05:29:58 <augur> oh fine.
05:30:02 <Sgeo> pikhq, you're an OOTS fan?
05:30:02 <MissPiggy> Sgeo are you going to make a protein shake?
05:30:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes.
05:30:13 <augur> whats an oots
05:30:20 <Sgeo> augur, http://www.giantitp.com
05:30:20 <MissPiggy> what's this about jesus and singularity please
05:30:22 <pikhq> augur: Order of the Stick
05:30:28 <Gregor> Object Oriented Type System
05:30:29 <Gregor> :P
05:30:35 <pikhq> D&D + stick figures = OOTS.
05:30:36 <Gregor> Sgeo: Gian-Tit-P?
05:30:51 <oerjan> giant in the playground.
05:30:53 <Sgeo> Gregor, you're not the first to make that joke.
05:31:04 <alise> (gian-tit-p x): returns t if x is a gian tit, or nil otherwise.
05:31:07 <pikhq> MissPiggy: Well, Jesus is claimed by some to be awesome. The singulary is considered awesome by most who know of it.
05:31:08 <Sgeo> Actually, maybe you made it before
05:31:16 <MissPiggy> what singularity is awesome??
05:31:21 <MissPiggy> I thought it was like a danger
05:31:23 <augur> Y'MUTHA
05:31:28 <augur> DANGER DANGER
05:31:29 <alise> MissPiggy: no :P
05:31:30 <augur> HIGH VOLTAGE
05:31:32 <pikhq> It's freaking technology improving itself.
05:31:33 <augur> WHEN WE KISS
05:31:35 <pikhq> What's not to like?
05:31:36 <augur> WHEN WE TOUCH
05:31:42 <Sgeo> If we don't do friendly AI right..
05:31:43 <alise> an Unfriendly Singularity will be fatal to everything in existence
05:31:47 <pikhq> It's, like, the second coming or something. :P
05:31:51 <alise> a Friendly Singularity is pretty much the best thing we could do
05:31:53 <MissPiggy> tiling the universe with paper clips !!!
05:31:55 <alise> (technical terms)
05:32:00 <alise> MissPiggy: that's what happens if it's Unfriendl.
05:32:02 <alise> *Unfriendly
05:32:11 <alise> Read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/ if you have the patience.
05:32:13 <alise> God knows I haven't.
05:32:14 <augur> hopefully microsoft doesnt invent the first superhuman AI
05:32:16 <MissPiggy> alise have you read the foobars?
05:32:20 <pikhq> An unfriendly singularity is apocalypse. A friendly singularity is utopia.
05:32:20 <MissPiggy> prim intellect
05:32:22 <Sgeo> Neutral == Unfriendly
05:32:30 <alise> Not yet, but fiction is not a guite to reality.
05:32:33 <augur> Sgeo: neutral == switzerland
05:32:35 <alise> MissPiggy: But honestly, read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/
05:32:35 <MissPiggy> onuapfndoafph
05:32:42 <augur> therefore switzerland == unfriendly?!
05:32:49 <MissPiggy> alise yeah I am about 1/5th through
05:32:52 <Gregor> virtuchuck: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
05:32:52 <virtuchuck> Gregor: Chuck norris were cloned, then it would be possible for a chuck norris only recognizes the element of surprise.
05:32:54 <pikhq> alise: Prime Intellect had three-laws singularity.
05:32:57 <alise> MissPiggy: what, that quickly?
05:33:01 <alise> pikhq: yeah i guessed
05:33:05 <alise> 3 laws or weaker system
05:33:07 <Sgeo> pikhq, plus two extra laws IIRC
05:33:09 <MissPiggy> alise, well I started quite a few months ago...
05:33:12 <alise> MissPiggy: right
05:33:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Oh, right.
05:33:17 <Sgeo> Appended onto the first
05:33:36 <Sgeo> One was "Do not interpret mind-states to understand them". What was the other?
05:33:36 <pikhq> 0th law was hardcoded, and the inventor made his will supercede that of most people, IIRC.
05:33:40 <MissPiggy> is that still quick?
05:33:44 <MissPiggy> I don't want to read too quickly
05:33:52 <pikhq> Oh, right. 0th law and "Do not interpret mind-states".
05:34:15 <alise> Was that to avoid mindreading or something?
05:34:18 <Sgeo> 0th law? I know what that means Asimov-wise, but I don't recall it in PI
05:34:29 <pikhq> I thought that was in it.
05:34:32 <Sgeo> Hm
05:34:36 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
05:34:39 <augur> guys
05:34:40 <MissPiggy> and not allow it to modify peoples thoughts
05:34:40 * pikhq should pull it up again
05:34:44 <augur> im going back to listening to a lecture
05:34:47 <augur> entitled
05:34:54 <augur> why its difficult for robots to learn word meanings
05:35:02 <MissPiggy> augur is that free online?
05:35:05 <augur> yes
05:35:09 <MissPiggy> link please ?
05:35:31 <alise> 5:35; bed soon.
05:35:33 <pikhq> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/
05:36:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, ""Force Association: Altering the position, composition, or any other characteristic of a human being without its permission shall be a violation of the First Law of severity two."
05:37:35 <augur> MissPiggy: not sure i can find it actually
05:37:36 <augur> gimme a second
05:37:43 <pikhq> Ah, yes. It was just additional details on the three laws.
05:37:43 <MissPiggy> augur okay never mind then
05:37:51 <augur> aha i think i found it
05:38:01 <alise> wait doesn't it metamorphosise the entire universe?
05:38:06 <Sgeo> And an attempted third appendium to the first law that failed
05:38:09 <alise> surely that counts as changing the composition of a human being
05:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: stop spoling, thanks
05:38:17 <alise> *spoiling
05:38:20 <Sgeo> sorry
05:38:25 <MissPiggy> alise how come you already know :|
05:38:40 <augur> http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/Browse/arizona-public.1477002748.01832962525.2097811649?i=2125659579
05:38:40 <virtuchuck> augur: 3 Laws or weaker system.
05:38:45 <alise> read the wikipedia summary, forgot most of it
05:38:46 <alise> virtuchuck: XD
05:38:46 <virtuchuck> alise: Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris in scrabble, you win. Forever.
05:38:59 <Sgeo> Also, are you going to read Fine Structure?
05:39:13 <pikhq> alise: That just changed the nature of matter. ;)
05:39:26 <alise> Sgeo: maybe someday.
05:39:28 -!- virtuchuck has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:40:05 <MissPiggy> I like yudkowski he writes well
05:40:21 <Sgeo> Three Worlds Collide?
05:40:41 <alise> *yudkowsky
05:40:47 <alise> Sgeo: CFAI too probably
05:40:49 <pikhq> alise: It also asked for human opinion on the matter.
05:41:26 <alise> I'm pretty sure Yudkowsky would give up his own life for the singularity.
05:42:01 <augur> MissPiggy: good? good.
05:42:24 <MissPiggy> augur thanks hun :)
05:42:45 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:43:48 * Sgeo would give up his own life if it were returned to him via having the state of his brain stored beforehand
05:44:32 <alise> If your brain is never resumed, then that is the same as dying.
05:44:37 <alise> If it is, then you did not die.
05:44:48 <alise> I mean give up your life as in die, no return.
05:44:58 <MissPiggy> hardcore mode
05:45:02 <augur> MissPiggy: the problem that this guy is approaching is quite deep, in some sense
05:45:06 <augur> verges on AI
05:45:09 <augur> infact, really is AI
05:45:46 * Sgeo isn't even sure that he'd give up his life to save human lives, tbh
05:46:16 <augur> its probably incredibly difficult to actually characterize lexical semantics at all
05:46:29 <augur> ignoring what aspects seem to actually be non-lexical
05:48:59 <alise> Personally I don't care about having a physical body or brain, just a mind.
05:49:45 <alise> In fact, I'd consider an uploaded mind as good as what I have if it could emulate a universe just as precise, detailed and good as this one, and better if it could emulate something with more of those qualities; vastly better if it can do that to my own configuration.
05:50:02 <MissPiggy> what's a mind??
05:50:36 <MissPiggy> are minds real?
05:50:43 * Sgeo would love to live in the world of PI
05:50:55 <MissPiggy> sgeo sicko :P
05:51:02 <alise> MissPiggy: the brain is a physical computer that runs a single program, the mind.
05:51:11 <alise> Mind, consciousness; call it what you will.
05:51:17 <augur> alise: i think the brain runs lots of little programs
05:51:22 <alise> The mind is what is important. The brain is just squidgy.
05:51:24 <alise> augur: They're subprograms.
05:51:27 <augur> like an unkernel.
05:51:28 <alise> You get the point, though.
05:51:29 <MissPiggy> alise I don't really beleive that stuff
05:51:30 <Sgeo> MissPiggy, any singularity without some of those social elements must mean that there are needly moral codes enforced
05:51:32 <augur> THE MIND IS A SOCIETY
05:51:36 <alise> MissPiggy: You don't believe you are conscious?
05:51:40 <alise> What, are you not experiencing anything?
05:51:43 <MissPiggy> not really
05:51:46 <alise> This is an entirely scientific hypothesis.
05:51:54 <Sgeo> Except for Raven's party
05:51:57 <alise> MissPiggy: you are wrong, because p-zombies do not exist and I find it incredibly likely you are intelligent
05:52:14 <MissPiggy> alise I read about the zombies and I agree with that
05:52:25 <alise> you are sentient, conscious, etc.
05:52:36 <alise> there is undeniably some experience that we experience; what it "is" we do not know but it exists.
05:52:40 <alise> And we have simulated neurons on computers.
05:52:43 <augur> MissPiggy: there are no such things as zombies, nor could there be.
05:52:49 <alise> That is a mind whose brain is a silicon chip.
05:52:53 <alise> Same mind, different brain.
05:53:00 <alise> The mind is important, the brain isn't.
05:53:41 <MissPiggy> but that doesn't make sense if you took my 'program' and wrote it into a computer .. the computer would experience things o_o, so does taht mean everything is concious already
05:54:00 <alise> no, YOU would experience things
05:54:06 <augur> MissPiggy: no, it only means that SOME things are conscious
05:54:12 <alise> consciousness is the byproduct of thought
05:54:12 <augur> because you need the right program
05:54:24 <alise> a computer running your mind would be executing thought
05:54:32 <alise> thus causing a we-don't-know-what-it-is experience called consciousness that is yours
05:54:36 <alise> it would be running you.
05:55:01 <alise> augur: maybe everything does emit the byproduct of consciousness, but with thoughts on the level of the identity function
05:55:09 <MissPiggy> I don't think I am conscious because I experience things
05:55:10 <alise> we honestly have no idea what it is, after all, but we know that it exists
05:55:11 <augur> lol
05:55:32 <augur> alise, stop arguing with MissPiggy. this is pointless
05:55:39 <augur> lets talk about more awesome things
05:55:46 <augur> like graph transduction
05:55:50 <MissPiggy> :(
05:55:53 <alise> MissPiggy appears to be dismissing "you are conscious" by leaving conscious undefined and saying that everything that consciousness is isn't
05:55:54 <MissPiggy> thanks a lot augur
05:56:00 <alise> thus leaving consciousness as a null concept
05:56:13 <MissPiggy> alise, I know what it means
05:56:27 <MissPiggy> it's not a null concept
05:57:57 <Sgeo> alise, how would you react if a copy of you went into the singularity/computer system/whatever, then 5min later, you were destroyed?
05:58:10 <alise> I reject the idea of a copy
05:58:20 <alise> Say you made an atom-perfect copy of my brain.
05:58:35 <alise> The laws of physics tells us that atoms do not have innate identity; two identical atoms in different places are exactly the same.
05:58:46 <alise> Therefore, there is no way for my two brains to result in two different consciousnesses.
05:58:56 <augur> alise: the laws of physics tell us nothing of the sort.
05:59:00 <MissPiggy> that doesn't follow alise
05:59:05 <MissPiggy> augur shut up you're arguing against me
05:59:09 <alise> augur: perhaps I mis-stated it
05:59:23 <MissPiggy> augur you can't just start agreeing like that
05:59:25 <alise> and it is 6am in the morning
05:59:29 <Sgeo> alise, then a simulation of those atoms
05:59:30 <augur> the best we can say is that if this is true, its irrelevant, since part of identity is location.
05:59:34 <alise> but i've heard this argument used convincingly elsewhere by people who know their shit about ai
05:59:40 <alise> augur: well, right
05:59:42 <augur> well those people are stupid.
05:59:52 <alise> augur: so do you think consciousness is separated by being in a different place?
05:59:54 <MissPiggy> alise do you think of a two level approach one is just physical stuff and the other is souls and spirits and stuff which control the body??
06:00:00 <alise> seems a strange detail for a brain to care about, it's just a computer
06:00:03 <Sgeo> alise, go to sleep so you can wake up inn a timely fashion so you can get nice pictures taken
06:00:06 <augur> alise, what
06:00:06 <alise> MissPiggy: fuck no, monism
06:00:10 <MissPiggy> that's the normal view of conciousness, and it's the one I am against
06:00:16 <alise> MissPiggy: there is no soul there is no spirit world
06:00:18 <Sgeo> alise, but then there's divergence as separate sensory data comes in
06:00:22 <MissPiggy> I don't beleive in that stuff
06:00:30 <alise> consciousness is just what happens when something thinks, consciousness IS sufficiently intelligent thought
06:00:31 <augur> the other consciousness would also be you. infact, "you" would cease to mean anything without referring to which alise we meant
06:00:38 <augur> but they would not be the same consciousness
06:00:42 <MissPiggy> and I don't think there's some infintesimal point in your brain that is the mind that experiences stuff
06:00:44 <alise> you are, we are, literally experiencing our thought directly, because our consciousness is the method by which our thoughts happen; it is our thoughts
06:01:00 <alise> augur: so you think that teleporting me to a different location would kill me and leave a copy in my place?
06:01:02 <alise> I strongly disagree
06:01:05 <augur> MissPiggy: ofcourse there isnt, but its irrelevant.
06:01:11 <alise> all the brain cells I had ten years ago are dead now, I'm still me
06:01:16 <MissPiggy> augur how is it? That is what alise was saying a moment ago no?
06:01:24 <alise> our brains try very hard to make us experience continuous consciousness for whatever reason
06:01:26 <augur> alise: doesnt matter that you disagree. its wrong. demonstrably so.
06:01:33 <MissPiggy> I'm confused, I thought you guys were telling me I was wrong now you seem to be saying the same kind of thing
06:01:36 <alise> augur: i'm waiting for the demonstration or proof
06:01:49 <alise> MissPiggy: we are using different, more accurate terminology than you
06:02:00 <augur> you dont have to destroy the original version of you to do it. now you've got two alises, experiencing entirely different things.
06:02:05 <MissPiggy> alise, well I would like to have better terms too
06:02:25 <MissPiggy> alise, but I dont' really read a lot of this stuff because it's mostly paranormal/spiritualism
06:02:45 <Sgeo> Singularity != Spiritualism
06:02:50 <Sgeo> Unless treated by idiots
06:02:51 <alise> you can't deny that we are conscious by saying that consciousness is a spiritual concept
06:02:56 <alise> monism and consciousness are compatible
06:02:58 <augur> thats not to say that theres a deep philosophical difference if the teleportation were talking about is quantum in nature.
06:03:15 <alise> anyway, imagine a machine implanted in your brain
06:03:19 <augur> ie entanglement sorts of stuff.
06:03:29 <alise> every now and then, it makes a perfect computer replica of one neuron in your brain, and replaces that neuron with the computer replica
06:03:38 * Sgeo thinks to how some quacks claim that talk of "observation" proves something spiritual and significant
06:03:39 <augur> alise, are you talking to me?
06:03:41 <augur> or to MissPiggy?
06:03:42 <alise> yes
06:03:45 <alise> replacing one neuron in your brain doesn't make you not you any more, correct, augur?
06:03:48 <MissPiggy> alise this is straight out of lesswrong -_-
06:03:53 <alise> MissPiggy: yes it is because it's true
06:03:56 <augur> well stop, theres no point in going down that road. i already agree with you on that point.
06:03:59 <alise> and it's a good argument which is why it sticks in my mind
06:03:59 <MissPiggy> okay
06:04:04 <MissPiggy> I thought you were teling me it
06:04:05 <MissPiggy> sorry
06:04:07 <alise> augur: so you believe that uploading without the cessation of consciousness is possible
06:04:14 <augur> ofcourse it is.
06:04:23 <alise> then we have no disagreement over anything important.
06:04:25 <augur> its the teleportation thing that is at issue, since these are not identical.
06:04:50 <MissPiggy> alise, where do you get more precicse terms regarding this from??
06:04:56 <alise> what if my computer mind is then uploaded to a computer, and they switch my computer mind off and run the same algorithm on another computer
06:05:03 <alise> MissPiggy: uh, you could try wikipedia?
06:05:12 <alise> augur: still me? if not, justify that.
06:05:17 <alise> same algorithm on the same data, same results
06:05:18 <MissPiggy> wikipedia is complete bullshit
06:05:22 <MissPiggy> so probably not
06:05:31 <augur> alise: all of them would be you. they'd be different "alise"s form different periods. and they would ofcourse diverge.
06:05:33 <alise> MissPiggy: well that's nice, you're an idiot
06:05:48 <pikhq> alise: If not you, then it's close enough so as to make no practical difference.
06:05:52 <alise> augur: no no, they shut down my computer brain, snapshot its state, and run the same algorithm on it on another computer
06:05:54 <alise> that's transfer
06:05:56 * Sgeo wants to invite people to his Relto
06:05:59 <MissPiggy> sorry but if you learned this stuff from wiki then no wonder you don't have any of your own thoughts on it
06:06:02 <alise> there is no way that can be _different_
06:06:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:06:11 <augur> alise: well sure, but same thing
06:06:13 <alise> MissPiggy: i didn't
06:06:24 <alise> MissPiggy: i was suggesting it to you. and you can stop being an asshole, or I will stop directing messages to you.
06:06:31 <augur> ok theres no other alise to diff from, but thats irrelevant.
06:06:43 <alise> augur: so you believe that if that copying happens, I will die?
06:06:48 <augur> no
06:06:49 <MissPiggy> you are the one calling me an idiot
06:06:51 <alise> I'm pretty sure I could reductio ad absurdum this, but I won't bother
06:07:00 <MissPiggy> so it's rich that you are saying I'm the one being an asshole
06:07:09 <alise> MissPiggy: blanketing all of wikipedia as complete bullshit is an idiotic statement, simple as
06:07:09 <augur> i believe that the consciousness over there is not the consciousness over here, if there is such a thing as consciousness
06:07:15 <augur> but thats pretty irrelevant.
06:07:20 <alise> augur: then what of my continuous experience?
06:07:26 <alise> will that continue, what is your position on that?
06:07:31 <augur> continuity is an illusion that your brain plays on itself
06:07:55 <augur> the new-computer version will experience continuity
06:08:08 <augur> with a sudden change in where it perceives itself to be
06:08:11 <pikhq> I think it really comes down to "What the hell is consciousness" at this point. And it appears to be bordering on semantic games.
06:08:21 <alise> augur: I'm referring to my subjective *continuous* experience though
06:08:30 <MissPiggy> Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.[2] Although humans realize what everyday experiences are, consciousness refuses to be defined -- Useless
06:08:34 <alise> what you said says nothing about my continuous experience, only its continuous experience - assuming them to be separate
06:08:45 <augur> what
06:08:59 <alise> see, all I care about is that my continuous conscious experience continues; and I believe that uploading, copying, teleportation and all the rest achieve this
06:09:14 <MissPiggy> you know it's not continuous though
06:09:21 -!- gm|lap has joined.
06:09:26 <augur> alise, i think the problem is not with your continuous conscious experience
06:09:29 <MissPiggy> there are gaps (you just don't normally see them)
06:09:35 <alise> MissPiggy: of course
06:09:39 <alise> but the experience is continuous
06:09:45 <alise> if i don't see them i don't experience them
06:09:46 <augur> i think the problem is that the word "you" has built into it an assumption about the nature of personhood that isnt correct
06:09:50 <alise> thus my experience is continuous
06:09:52 <alise> augur: agreed
06:10:30 <MissPiggy> alise, look I am not trying to derail this with being an asshole or anything but you said you have much more precise termiology than me and I just wanted to know why -- WIkipedia is not precise on these issues so I don't undersatnd why you would recommend it to me -- it's almost like a helpful google bot
06:10:31 <augur> imagine we dont turn off your server, and instead take a snapshot and then boot it on another server
06:10:40 <augur> so that there are two instances of the Alise image running
06:10:52 <augur> (obviously its all in smalltalk, because smalltalk is inherently suited for this sort of thing)
06:10:59 <augur> which of them is you?
06:11:15 <augur> they certainly wont be experiencing the same things
06:11:40 <augur> some sort of unified consciousness in multiple bodies (ignoring the possibility of actually doing this with wifi or whatever)
06:11:53 <augur> we wont magically get robotelepathy in this fashion
06:12:04 <alise> yeah
06:12:05 <augur> but both are you, arguably. just not the same consciousness.
06:12:21 <MissPiggy> since you are not replying that means I am no longer an idiot?
06:12:22 <alise> in the mean-time, I will continue life as ordinary. that does exactly what I want as far as my continuous experience goes until I die
06:12:24 <augur> theyre forks of the Alise mind
06:12:28 <alise> and I have a lot of years until then
06:12:29 <augur> one perhaps a trunk
06:12:34 <alise> MissPiggy: I was just reading something else
06:12:46 <alise> anyway, I was just dismissing the question because I'm tired
06:12:52 <MissPiggy> what question?
06:12:54 <augur> alise, sure, except the physical you will be different than the roboyou's
06:12:56 <MissPiggy> that wasn't a question :|
06:12:59 <alise> MissPiggy: where to find terms
06:13:01 <alise> now I really must sleep, if I want to continue my conscious experience I must not die
06:13:06 <alise> not sleeping for too long is dangerous to my health
06:13:09 <alise> health risks can lead to death
06:13:10 <alise> so
06:13:11 <alise> sleep
06:13:13 <coppro> see you next week alise
06:13:15 <alise> no
06:13:18 <alise> sunday exists, sir
06:13:18 <augur> and even if the physical you was copied at the moment of death, it would still be a different version of you
06:13:20 <augur> one Alise died
06:13:23 <coppro> oh right, it's saturday!
06:13:24 <augur> and another lived
06:13:25 <coppro> yay
06:13:27 <alise> no it's sunday it's 6am
06:13:27 <MissPiggy> alise oh right, so you DISMISS ME by linking to wikipedia, then I say "this is bulshit' because it IS, and then you go off on how I am an idiot ???
06:13:35 <coppro> it's saturday here
06:13:37 <coppro> how's the passport coming btw
06:13:40 <alise> MissPiggy: ok, remind me not to talk to you when tired
06:13:42 <MissPiggy> alise for fucks sake.. you should have just told me you don't have a reference
06:13:48 <alise> coppro: no progress so far. photos on sunday prolly
06:13:55 <alise> MissPiggy: you do realise that people don't think properly when tired?
06:14:01 <alise> anyway, feel free to raise a shitstorm, I'll be sleeping
06:14:06 <MissPiggy> alise, yeah okay I'm sorry I got angry about it
06:14:12 <alise> sorry for dismissing you
06:14:20 <alise> happy families! now really, sleep ->
06:14:21 <MissPiggy> alise, I just felt a bit upset when you said I was an idiot because I was trying really hard not to be
06:14:32 <alise> sorry. just hard to do two convos at once while sleepy :P
06:14:36 <alise> anyway I said -> that means i'm gone
06:14:37 <MissPiggy> okay nn
06:14:40 <alise> it is physically impossible to ping me!
06:16:10 <MissPiggy> I wonder if I could PROVE that nobody is conscious
06:16:45 <augur> MissPiggy: no. all you'd prove is that your definition of consciousness is wrong.
06:17:18 <MissPiggy> augur, what if I started with the right definition?
06:17:51 <augur> if you started with the right definition, you would only prove that unconscious people are not conscious.
06:18:14 <MissPiggy> you are very sure :)
06:18:25 <MissPiggy> I will have to produce a VERY good proof...
06:18:27 <augur> thats because consciousness is whatever it is that people are doing :)
06:18:49 <MissPiggy> is a slug conscious?
06:18:50 <augur> you'll have to prove that people just ARENT, to prove that people arent CONSCIOUS.
06:18:56 <augur> who knows.
06:19:14 <MissPiggy> I think little insects are basically automatons
06:19:20 <MissPiggy> they just wiggle and so on
06:19:36 <augur> people are automatons too. theyre just big ones.
06:19:41 <augur> that doesnt mean they're not conscious :)
06:19:43 <MissPiggy> yeah exactly
06:19:45 <MissPiggy> oh ?
06:19:48 <augur> it just means you dont know what consciousness is!
06:19:49 <MissPiggy> but I thought it does
06:19:56 <MissPiggy> I do know what it is :(
06:20:02 <augur> obviously not :)
06:20:17 <augur> i can sum up my views on this matter: i agree with dennett.
06:20:21 <MissPiggy> If I try to prove that consciousness doesn't exist, that means that *I* am one of the only people in the world who doesn't have it?
06:20:33 <MissPiggy> can you give me dennett to read?
06:20:42 <MissPiggy> I don't know anything about him
06:21:16 <augur> yes
06:21:17 <augur> give me a second
06:24:06 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0wetQwH9nY
06:24:26 <augur> watch all three parts
06:24:30 <MissPiggy> why can't I just say outrageous stuff like "wikipedia is bullshit" by the way?
06:24:44 <MissPiggy> thanks augur
06:24:45 <augur> you can
06:24:48 <augur> and people can say stuff back
06:25:20 <MissPiggy> yeah but they get mad
06:25:25 <MissPiggy> it's no good
06:26:21 <augur> tough shit :P
06:26:23 <augur> people get mad
06:26:25 <augur> big deal.
06:26:35 <augur> if this were #antiwiki people would be happy.
06:26:35 <MissPiggy> I will try harder not to be so extravagant then
06:26:49 <MissPiggy> that's not a real chan :(
06:27:44 <augur> alise is 14
06:27:47 <augur> if this were a real chan
06:27:51 <augur> we'd be asking for nudes.
06:28:58 <MissPiggy> antiwiki is not a real chan :P
06:29:11 <augur> and?
06:29:21 <MissPiggy> boooooopfadpfad
06:29:26 <MissPiggy> I have a sore tummy
06:29:48 <augur> you're pregnant.
06:31:15 <MissPiggy> I wonder if I might be a skeptic but I just don't want to admit it
06:32:48 <MissPiggy> he said 'cogito ergo sum' is wrong!!
06:33:09 <augur> and it is
06:33:13 <MissPiggy> :O
06:33:19 <MissPiggy> I thuoght it was true
06:33:26 <augur> y'mutha
06:33:31 <MissPiggy> :(
06:36:58 <augur> si! abbiamo un anima! ma è fatta di tanti piccoli robot!
06:36:59 <augur> :D
06:37:17 <MissPiggy> this is fucking ridiculous augur!!!!!!!!!
06:37:30 <MissPiggy> everything he is saying is what I agree with and was saying earlier
06:37:31 <augur> what?
06:37:45 <augur> haha
06:38:02 <MissPiggy> how come all you guys are disagreeing with me but actually think the same thing
06:38:42 <augur> because you dont know how to think about these things!
06:39:11 <MissPiggy> :S how do you mean?
06:39:44 <augur> what do you MEAN what do i mean!
06:40:03 <MissPiggy> you said I don't know how to think about these things, so what do I need to learn
06:41:24 * MissPiggy bites augur
06:41:28 <augur> oi
06:41:29 <augur> stop that
06:45:16 <MissPiggy> well?
06:46:33 <augur> i dont know
06:46:40 <MissPiggy> huff
06:46:42 <augur> i think about thinking
06:46:47 <augur> i dont think about thinking about thinking
06:46:51 <augur> im not a metametathinker!
06:47:38 <MissPiggy> lol
06:47:47 <MissPiggy> oh yeah
06:47:56 <MissPiggy> that reminds me, I still think metameta- = meta-
06:48:02 <MissPiggy> but someone here said it's not
06:49:35 <augur> decidedly not true.
06:49:45 <MissPiggy> acn you hepl me understand why
06:49:48 <augur> sure
06:50:00 <augur> meta-thinking is arguably what philosophers of thought do, right?
06:50:09 <augur> er, philosophers of mind
06:50:15 <augur> they think about thought, and what minds are like
06:50:17 <MissPiggy> I suppose
06:50:29 <augur> that doesnt mean that they think about how to think about minds
06:50:44 * coppro wants to step in with an analogy, but will let augur finish
06:50:45 <augur> ie they dont NECESSARILY say, "how should i approach this task"
06:51:04 <augur> they might just conjecture about the nature of mind, without even asking how to approach it
06:51:16 <augur> meta-meta-thinking is then thinking about how to think about how we think
06:51:33 <augur> similarly, meta-meta-meta-thinking is thinking about how to go about thinking about how to think about how we think
06:51:40 <MissPiggy> that's silly :P
06:51:44 <augur> perhaps!
06:51:46 <augur> but its true
06:51:48 <coppro> my turn!
06:51:57 <augur> thinking about thinking is not thinking about thinking about thinking.
06:51:58 <augur> obviously.
06:52:02 <augur> coppro: GO GO GO
06:53:16 <coppro> In most programming language, manipulating types would probably be one level of meta-, because normally one manipulates objects in the course of programming. Hence, in a language with types you can manipulate, types are metaobjects. If types themselves have types (metatypes?), and those could be manipulated, they would be metametaobjects
06:53:29 <coppro> it's like multiple integration, except more conceptually
06:54:00 <MissPiggy> metaprogramming = programming
06:54:18 <coppro> But once removed from the normal level
06:54:34 <coppro> likewise, metathinking is thinking; it's just that it's about thinking
06:55:10 <coppro> f(x) and \int F(x) dx are both functions, but they are not the same
06:55:14 <coppro> s/F/f/
06:55:43 <augur> metaprogramming is programming yes
06:55:57 <augur> but its programming programs that make programs
06:55:59 <augur> hence its meta
06:56:11 <augur> meta-X is a kind of X that does X
06:56:14 <augur> thats what meta means
06:56:31 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
07:00:43 <Sgeo> Bevin!
07:00:52 <augur> Bespin!
07:02:04 <Sgeo> Hm. "Bevin" is not as Googlable as I had hoped
07:05:31 <oerjan> `google bevin
07:05:40 <HackEgo> Ernest Bevin (9 March 1881 14 April 1951) was a British Labour politician, best known for his time as Minister of Labour in the war-time coalition ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bevin - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
07:07:23 <oerjan> i take it he was responsible for the "sweat" part of those blood, sweat and tears
07:09:34 <Sgeo> `google Bevin Uru
07:09:35 <HackEgo> Jump to [13]Bevin: bevin In the centre of the Plaza is a fountain. Turn about and climb up to the balcony overlooking the inland sea. ... \ [14]Preparing the Way - [15]Relto - [16]Bevin - [17]Ferry Terminal
07:11:09 * oerjan has no idea what Sgeo is trying to find
07:14:17 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
07:14:54 <Sgeo> Bevin == Neighborhood
07:15:23 <Sgeo> erm, perhaps not
07:15:47 <Sgeo> `google Bevin Neighborhood
07:15:48 <HackEgo> Aug 8, 2007 ... I am not sure I believe that, but it does suggest we should not call all neighborhoods "Bevin". I must admit, I had fallen into the Bevin/neighborhood ... \ forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?t=2018 - [13]Cached
07:16:01 <Sgeo> "Bevin does not mean neighborhood."
07:16:38 <oerjan> in what language?
07:17:23 <Sgeo> D'ni
07:17:40 <Sgeo> Or, that might actually be a race
07:17:49 <Sgeo> Not sure if there's a particular name for the language
07:17:56 <oerjan> oh so that google hit was actually relevant...
07:18:55 <Sgeo> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/D'ni
07:23:18 * Sgeo is rish years old
07:25:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:25:13 -!- augur_ has joined.
07:29:36 <augur_> my fucking internet
07:29:42 <augur_> is so goddamned slpw right now
07:29:44 <augur_> i dont know why :(
07:30:08 * Sgeo should be preparing to go to sleep right now
07:30:18 <oerjan> augur_: microwave sloths
07:30:32 <oerjan> they're crawling inside the wires
07:31:53 <augur_> io0p-;[']u7ijk98uiolp;[']
07:31:54 <augur_> \9890-]\
07:31:56 <augur_> "?90-=]iolp[;'
07:32:02 <augur_> whoops
07:32:07 <augur_> no no its not microwave issues
07:32:12 <augur_> connectivity is fine
07:35:45 <Sgeo> Horribly Tasteless Wikipedia humor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_file_systems&oldid=220529437#Features
07:36:08 <coppro> ?
07:36:32 <augur_> Sgeo: hahaha
07:36:54 <coppro> oh
07:36:58 <coppro> there it is
07:37:20 <coppro> HAHA
07:37:27 <coppro> tr/A-Z/a-z/
07:39:09 <coppro> that one needs a new section: "Performance", with a "No" under FAT and NTFS :P
07:39:23 <augur_> :P
07:39:47 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
07:40:18 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest99794.
07:40:35 <coppro> Something is wrong when your VM performs faster than your native applications
07:40:43 <coppro> doing the same stuff
07:40:49 -!- Guest99794 has changed nick to augur_.
07:42:10 -!- augur_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
07:43:55 <Sgeo> If I put an image on imgur, will other people see it?
07:46:26 * Sgeo hopes not
07:52:36 <Sgeo> Who runs .exes on webservers?
07:57:57 <pikhq> Gregor runs arbitrary binaries on his wiki.
07:59:42 <Sgeo> Windows binaries?
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:25 <Sgeo> Although if Hackiki supports Mono, I guess his wiki could end up using .exes
08:00:41 * Sgeo now knows what it's like for someone to excessively IM him
08:00:48 <Sgeo> I used to be an excessive IMer
08:02:39 <coppro> Sgeo: doit
08:02:54 <Sgeo> Wha?
08:03:13 <oerjan> `translatefromto fr en doit
08:03:15 <HackEgo> must
08:04:20 <Sgeo> coppro, whayouwametodo, unlessyoumeanmust,inwhichcasewhatsthemustfor?
08:04:35 <coppro> Sgeo: do it
08:04:40 <Sgeo> dowhat?
08:04:52 <coppro> put Mono on Hackiki Prime
08:04:57 <Sgeo> Ahlol
08:05:05 <Sgeo> Nanowneesleep
08:05:47 * Sgeo isn't even sure how to go about doing such a thing
08:05:52 <coppro> easy
08:05:53 <oerjan> enlispelingetsworsanwors
08:05:58 <coppro> put the entire Mono framework on Hackiki
08:06:02 <coppro> Put a .exe on it
08:06:04 <coppro> have fun!
08:07:06 <Sgeo> How do I shot Hackiki?
08:11:52 <Sgeo> Gnight
08:28:45 -!- augur_ has joined.
08:50:45 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop.).
09:01:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
09:03:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:21:20 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:21:45 -!- augur_ has joined.
09:37:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
09:45:30 -!- oklopol has joined.
10:01:47 <oklopol> alise: okay the ;'s are gone, my number one error is using , instead of it :D
10:02:18 <oklopol> (the thing doesn't fail well yet)
10:24:35 -!- tombom has joined.
10:39:35 -!- Pthing has joined.
11:08:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:40:53 -!- tombom_ has joined.
11:42:48 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:45:28 -!- tcsavage has joined.
12:03:59 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:10:37 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:15:25 <oklopol> alise: doing ski now, i wrote the thing in thue in the time it's taken me to differentiate between different sorts of inputs :D
12:21:49 <oklopol> also i just killed hundreds of children
12:23:26 <oklopol> so, how fucking fast do fruit flies reproduce?
12:24:36 <oklopol> i've been vacuuming their whole visible population about 3 times a day for like 3 days now, and the only noticeable difference really is that there are now more kids than adults
12:25:14 <oklopol> i assume the vacuum cleaner kills them because i've never seen anyone get outta there
12:27:04 <oklopol> once left it next to the computer for hours just to see if someone comes out
12:27:49 <oklopol> no idea why it would kill them though, they are very hard to kill with impact, and i assume that's the only thing the vacuum cleaner does to them
12:28:21 <oklopol> easy to kill by squashing ofc
12:41:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:44:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:52:22 -!- tcsavage_ has joined.
12:54:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:54:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:55:12 -!- augur_ has joined.
12:55:21 -!- tcsavage has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:14:11 <alise> <augur> alise is 14
13:14:12 <alise> <augur> if this were a real chan
13:14:12 <alise> <augur> we'd be asking for nudes.
13:14:12 <alise> lol
13:15:48 <Wareya> but I'm 14
13:19:01 -!- tcsavage_ has left (?).
13:23:13 <oklopol> i'm even older than that
13:30:53 <Wareya> http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic
13:31:59 <alise> Wareya: i wish to kill you
13:32:12 <Wareya> why'
13:32:20 <alise> http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic
13:32:25 <Wareya> oh
13:32:30 <Wareya> right
13:32:33 <Wareya> I didn't make that
13:32:37 <Wareya> I just feel really sorry for the guy
13:33:14 <alise> sure he isn't trolling you
13:33:20 <Wareya> yes
13:33:22 <Wareya> I've met him
13:33:41 <alise> I humbly suggest euthanasia.
13:33:48 <Wareya> I mean
13:34:01 <Wareya> I knew him off the internet and saw him posting under that account
13:34:13 <Wareya> he's really autistic
13:34:15 <Wareya> :(
13:34:20 <alise> that much is obvious
13:34:27 <Wareya> yeah
13:34:42 <alise> zzo38's autistic too, but he's just crazy, not ... dunno how to put it, hopelessly naive? :P
13:34:55 <Wareya> hahaha
13:34:59 <Wareya> you know
13:35:17 <Wareya> my school considered testing me for aspergers but decided it was easier to say I had an emotional disorder
13:35:23 <alise> actually I'm often surprised by the navety of other people...
13:35:43 <Wareya> really?
13:35:46 <alise> yes
13:35:51 <Wareya> I thought that naivety was something that like
13:35:53 <Wareya> everyone had
13:35:53 <Wareya> etc.
13:35:57 <alise> well yes
13:36:04 <alise> but I see it a lot in other people
13:36:22 <alise> Wareya: lol I've experienced my own bullshit with aspergers (as you probably know; god knows everyone in this channel does)
13:36:24 <Wareya> like I'm naive to new ideas that aren't directly logic related
13:36:33 <Wareya> haha
13:36:44 <alise> yeah, this hell totally is haha :P
13:36:45 <alise> oh, I mean nave as in real-world situations
13:36:52 <Wareya> oh
13:37:06 <Wareya> yeah I'm dead for most shit in real life
13:37:39 <Wareya> anyway
13:37:46 <Wareya> How should I start coding an interpreter for Boat?
13:38:40 <alise> well it's imperative, so naturally I'd use Haskell
13:38:41 <Wareya> I have a lot of time lately (vacation) and I'd hte to waste it playing half-life etc.
13:38:49 <Wareya> well
13:38:55 <Wareya> all I know is C, GML and Python
13:38:57 <alise> it isn't wasted if you enjoyed it
13:38:58 <Wareya> and GML is out the window
13:39:03 <Wareya> well
13:39:03 <alise> first, learn haskell
13:39:07 <Wareya> I'm like, never sad
13:39:18 <Wareya> since my childhood was so sad haha
13:39:23 <alise> presumably you experience fun playing half-life otherwise you wouldn't want to do it
13:39:33 <Wareya> but I also get fun out of programming
13:39:34 <Wareya> so
13:39:47 <alise> it's not like anyone will use the interp though :P
13:39:52 <Wareya> true
13:40:00 <alise> anyway don't do it in C, Python isn't a good language but at least you don't have to manage memory.
13:40:09 <Wareya> I love managing memory
13:40:23 <alise> then you love busywork, not real programming work
13:40:26 <Wareya> and python is only bad in the syntax and how it handles low level objects
13:40:34 <alise> no, it's bad all the way through
13:40:35 <alise> anyway
13:40:35 <Wareya> Oh, I meant the real basic stuff
13:40:41 <alise> since you have multiple bracketing statements, write a parser of course
13:40:44 <Wareya> @memory management
13:40:50 <alise> you have infix operations, how do they associate?
13:40:52 <alise> Do they?
13:40:58 <Wareya> huh?\
13:41:12 <alise> n==nequality test -- returns the xnor of two values (if you need booblean, use casting)
13:41:12 <alise> n!=ninequality test -- returns the xnand of two values
13:41:12 <alise> n|n"or" -- note: || in C is its | with a boolean restriction
13:41:12 <alise> n&n"and" -- note: && in C is its & with a boolean restriction
13:41:12 <alise> n!|n"nor"
13:41:13 <alise> n!&n"nand"
13:41:16 <alise> what does this mean:
13:41:25 <alise> x|y!=z!&r==n&p
13:41:31 <Wareya> left to right
13:41:42 <alise> that's easy then
13:41:46 <alise> you know how to write a parser right?
13:41:51 <Wareya> Nope! :D
13:42:04 <alise> ok well the obvious option is to use a library but that's boring innit
13:42:12 <alise> I assume you don't really care about helpful syntax errors
13:42:23 <Wareya> the more lenient a language is the better
13:42:32 <Wareya> which is why I can't write python
13:42:45 <alise> Python is lenient...
13:42:50 <Wareya> not the syntax
13:42:53 <alise> True.
13:43:14 <alise> Past a certain point, bondage becomes freedom, paradoxically enough; Haskell, for instance, is one of the most expressive languages I've used.
13:43:21 <alise> But Python doesn't really hit that.
13:43:26 <alise> Fine, I'll show you how I'd structure this parser in C.
13:43:48 <Wareya> like purely structural languages versus ones that only have goto
13:44:25 <alise> Right.
13:46:48 <alise> Wareya: actually, since you have complex expressions *and* infix operators, a parser library is probably your best bet
13:47:04 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:47:28 <Wareya> or I could be hardcore and process all the nesting manually like I planned to
13:47:34 <Wareya> becaues 1) That would teach me more
13:47:46 <Wareya> 2) I wouldn't need to deal with a library
13:47:53 <alise> yacc isn't a library
13:48:00 <alise> you write a .y file and it spits out a c file
13:48:10 -!- augur_ has joined.
13:48:12 <Wareya> and 3) I wouldn't need to deal with a preprocessor
13:48:15 <Wareya> oh hey
13:48:15 <alise> 70s technology, the people who invented C used it y'know
13:48:34 <alise> Wareya: re recursive descent - yeah except I'm good at shit like this and now how to write parsers,
13:48:54 <Wareya> and I don't
13:48:54 <alise> and when I realised you had left-associative infix operators with complex left-hand-side expressions with many types of nesting, plus 2d flow,
13:49:02 <alise> I started crying and closed the window.
13:49:07 <alise> Wareya: also, you CANNOT parse this language
13:49:10 <alise> it has two dimensional flow
13:49:14 <alise> well, you can
13:49:24 <alise> but you have to store N where N is a very large number parses for every single block
13:49:32 <alise> and it would be near-impossible to coordinate
13:49:32 <Wareya> actually hang on
13:49:42 <Wareya> it needs to parse actively
13:49:46 <alise> same reason the only way you can parse befunge is loading it into a 2d char array
13:49:53 <alise> Wareya: right. you're out of your league.
13:50:00 <Wareya> Heh
13:50:08 <alise> what a syntax for such trivial semantics :P
13:50:32 <Wareya> I wrote a Chip-8 -> brainfuck converter
13:50:43 <Wareya> I think I could at least get SOMEWHERE with this
13:51:04 <Wareya> maybe if I wrote it in a language that was really good at dealing with fucked up structure
13:51:12 <alise> good luck I wash my hands of this
13:51:24 <alise> also, haskell is really good for multiple angles of the same data and handling complex structures like this simply
13:51:25 <alise> just sayin'
13:51:34 <Wareya> I have functional languages
13:51:37 <Wareya> hate*
13:51:49 <alise> oh. so you're an idiot, then
13:51:54 <Wareya> Both of my parents programmed in C and PHP
13:52:09 <alise> PHP in your genes? well that would explain it
13:52:10 <Wareya> and I wrote shell scripts when I was 3
13:52:16 <Wareya> I hate PHP too, though
13:52:20 <Wareya> which is ironic
13:52:22 <alise> what functional languages have you used
13:52:45 <Wareya> erlang, haskell, AGTs
13:52:50 <Wareya> SGTS*
13:52:51 <Wareya> ;sdlfjasd
13:52:54 <Wareya> AGTS*
13:52:56 <alise> how seriously did you use haskell?
13:52:59 <Wareya> yes
13:53:05 <Wareya> er
13:53:35 <Wareya> misread that. I didn't use it that eriously, but I jumped in the shallow end and tried to mess with it for a couple weeks
13:53:54 <alise> Well, obviously you hate them because they're different to what you're so used to.
13:53:58 <alise> That's not a very healthy attitude to take, though.
13:54:03 <Wareya> heh
13:54:07 <alise> You should always try to push your programming language boundaries.
13:54:26 <Wareya> have you used GML? Its object manipulation is worse than C++
13:54:35 <alise> Personally I may consider several paradigms worthwhile and not be sure which, but I know for sure that whichever has the nicest properties is certainly not imperative.
13:54:42 <alise> Imperative couldn't be more dead to me.
13:54:44 <Wareya> I can't really get accustomed to a functional language after mastering that
13:55:11 <alise> it's much more peaceful after you do ;)
13:55:16 <Wareya> hahaha
13:55:36 <Wareya> maybe I should try to do it in FreeBASIC
13:55:46 <Wareya> just to be an asshole to people who hate basic
13:55:46 <alise> not for me though because i constantly see everything that's shit about my computer
13:56:07 <alise> wrong architecture. wrong language. wrong structure of OS. wrong interface. wrong software. blah blah blah
13:56:17 <Wareya> I hate x86
13:56:39 <Wareya> I hate how windows XP ties everything to the OS
13:56:52 <Wareya> tec.
13:56:53 <Wareya> etc.
13:57:00 <alise> you hate x86 but for presumably all the wrong reasons
13:57:06 <alise> I would vastly prefer a graph-reduction architecture
13:57:10 <alise> like the Reduceron
13:57:11 <Wareya> there's WAY TOO MUCH
13:57:26 <alise> at least you know that simplicity is a virtue, but simplicity does not mean low-level, of course.
13:57:30 <Wareya> hell, I work with mips all the time, and even it's over the top
13:57:36 <Wareya> of course
13:57:43 <Wareya> that's why I was able to deal with chip-8
13:57:45 <alise> the Reduceron is a high-level symbolic computer (like computer algebra systems)... on an fpga
13:57:51 <alise> no imperative instructions in sight
13:58:58 <Wareya> http://devernay.free.fr/hacks/chip8/C8TECH10.HTM#3.1
13:59:08 <Wareya> the only imperitive stuff there deals with the 8 or so registers
13:59:27 <Wareya> 16
14:00:07 <alise> SYS is imperative. CLR is. RET, JP, CALL. You could make an argument for SE/SNE/SE being denotational. LD, ADD. OR and AND too, for they mutate the registers. I won't go on; this is imperative in its entirety.
14:00:47 <Wareya> oh I'm sorry
14:01:03 <alise> Functional *means* functional. :P
14:01:07 <Wareya> I was assuming that pardagrim inclusion wasn't tenary
14:01:09 <Wareya> :)
14:01:25 <alise> Are you sure what you said makes sense?
14:01:29 <Wareya> Yes.
14:01:42 <alise> i disagree
14:02:05 <Wareya> I was assuming that something being one of a pardagrim wasn't a JUSDT yes, no, or unrelated thing.
14:02:08 <Wareya> JUST*
14:02:31 <alise> Well, I saw not a single instruction that could be described as declarative apart from - maybe - SE/SNE/SE; even then they read mutable state.
14:02:48 <alise> "Functional" as a paradigm means little; only purely functional has the required properties that make it worthwhile.
14:03:15 <alise> Reasoning about programs, safety, segregating non-functional code into boxes, large optimisation potential, ...
14:03:26 <Wareya> ...wat
14:04:37 <Wareya> I'm sorry but that made no sense to me
14:04:38 <alise> Well, if imperative code is all you know I'm not surprised you don't understand... it's pretty much the lowest common denominator as far as advanced topics like that go - and I mean to cause no offence, I am referring to the entire world that it comprises
14:05:17 <alise> I couldn't really explain most of them without several pages... by that point, it'd probably be easier for you to actually learn a functional language than to follow the tangled web of words.
14:05:25 <Wareya> haha
14:05:49 <Wareya> I guess that the way that I'm spergin' makes me thing of everything as a test and set
14:06:22 <Wareya> because I was thinking that way before I know very much about computers
14:06:25 <alise> Everything is a graph rewriting.
14:06:35 <alise> Even imperative code can be modelled this way, and efficiently, too.
14:07:07 <Wareya> you can boil anything down to one operator following a 3D trail
14:07:13 <alise> It certainly transcends such petty blimps in history as how our computers work; it's pretty much pure mathematics, and mathematics has to be the oldest non-physical discipline there is.
14:07:14 <Wareya> and you can build that back up into anything else
14:07:32 <alise> And the power, safety, purity and optimisation you get when you layer a good type system on top...
14:07:48 <Wareya> european pre-calculus math is retarded
14:07:51 <oklopol> are you people saying two things can be equal in their computational ability even though they are different?!?
14:08:00 <Wareya> in my very non-humble opinion
14:08:05 <oklopol> pre-calculus is retarded everywhere
14:08:15 <Wareya> post algebra, pre calculus
14:08:20 <Wareya> is fucking stupid
14:08:28 <Wareya> Hell, calculus isn't even european
14:08:39 <Wareya> so I'm fully justified in saying that all european math is dipshit
14:08:48 <oklopol> "let's take a sneak peek at what you'll do with this stuff once you have any idea what it means"
14:08:57 <alise> Does Chaitlin count?
14:09:03 <alise> Erdos?
14:09:09 <alise> (Why didn't I think of Erdos first? Disturbing.)
14:09:18 <oklopol> current version of ski takes over a minute to compile
14:09:37 <Wareya> alise, are they post-1850?
14:09:48 <alise> Oh my god, you don't know who Paul Erdos is.
14:09:56 <Wareya> since I suck at european history past rome
14:10:11 <alise> I think you just became the most idiotic person I ever met, to claim that European mathematics is bullshit one sentence then express ignorance at who Paul Erdos is in the next.
14:10:19 <Wareya> I'm sorry, but
14:10:20 <Wareya> since I suck at european history past rome
14:10:23 <Wareya> I don't know
14:10:38 <alise> Then saying anything about European mathematics makes you a fool.
14:10:53 <Wareya> I'm also 14 in one of the most facist state education systems in america
14:11:01 <Wareya> so shun me
14:11:29 <alise> It is one thing not to know, it is another entirely to make a blanket statement about something that you do not know.
14:11:36 <Wareya> alise
14:11:54 <alise> If you have the self-awareness to know that you are in a crappy educational system (pretty much all of them), you have the intellect, and thus the intellectual responsibility, not to do things like that.
14:11:56 <Wareya> I have been trained to call everything post-1850 in the western hemisphere american
14:12:30 <alise> You could only get away with "it's the SYSTEM! blame the SYSTEM!" if you weren't clearly intelligent enough to realise what bullshit such things are.
14:12:50 <alise> Also, Georg Cantor?
14:12:58 <Wareya> I know that I'm uneducated in history
14:12:59 <alise> 1870. Maybe he's not sufficiently Unamerican for you.
14:13:03 <Wareya> haha
14:13:05 <alise> *un-Ameircan
14:13:06 <alise> *American
14:13:07 <alise> ffs
14:13:13 <alise> (un-American, that is)
14:13:35 <Wareya> russia and germany
14:13:43 <Wareya> you know
14:13:51 <Wareya> maybe I should be saying western instead of european
14:14:05 <Wareya> then again I suck at making good english so fuck that
14:14:28 <oklopol> i totally be make an fun english
14:14:34 <Wareya> haha
14:14:42 <alise> Anyway, fact is, if you know that you do not know much about the history of European mathematics, because you know that you do not know about European history post-Roman times, then it is intellectually dishonest to make more than trivial statements about European mathematics; a blanket statement is simply ridiculous.
14:15:01 <Wareya> But America is all about blanket systems!
14:15:05 <alise> You don't need to know anything to make that train of deduction except what you self-admittedly know; that you are ignorant of European history.
14:15:07 <oklopol> i think you're both wrong
14:15:15 <alise> p and not p!
14:15:20 <Wareya> us q!
14:15:23 <Wareya> is*
14:15:34 <oklopol> ah, the famous P ?= NP problem
14:16:00 <Wareya> p&!(p)
14:16:10 <Wareya> =0
14:16:22 <Wareya> OF COURSE IT'S UNRELATED
14:16:47 <alise> I don't care how cliche it is, because it's relevant:
14:16:50 <alise> "Never let your schooling interfere with your education." --probably not Mark Twain
14:17:15 <Wareya> That's what I said until I realized that I didn't reach out enough out side of school to learn things
14:17:29 <Wareya> if you weren't being so pretensious I would probably be listening to you, though
14:17:37 <Wareya> Yes I suck at spelling
14:17:37 <alise> You're on a computer connected to the internet; it presumably has a web browser. So... what are you waiting for?
14:17:46 <Wareya> BUT HALF-LIFE
14:17:52 <alise> oh, the American anti-intellectual attitude really has sunk into your brain
14:17:56 <Wareya> no
14:17:58 <alise> big words are pretentious elitism
14:17:59 <Wareya> I'm pro-intellectual
14:18:04 <Wareya> h
14:18:06 <Wareya> insults are
14:18:14 <alise> i am not insulting you.
14:18:21 <Wareya> reads like it
14:18:31 <Wareya> just sayin'
14:18:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:18:39 <Deewiant> She's an asshole in general: don't read into it too much
14:18:48 <Wareya> I figured such.
14:19:05 <alise> That I am, but in this case I was not being an asshole to you, only certain parts or actions of you.
14:19:22 <Wareya> but parts make up the whole
14:19:33 <alise> So is criticising someone's mathematical proof an insult?
14:19:38 <Wareya> nope
14:20:01 <Wareya> you're criticising the parts of me that I've never really cared about being different
14:20:04 <Pthing> it can be!
14:20:05 <Wareya> so of course I feel offended
14:20:10 <Wareya> hahaha
14:20:56 <Wareya> Also, my full-blown proofs with columns and everything aren't ever argued with because I go into detail showing how I tried proving each part wrong to no avail
14:21:30 <alise> Proof by contradiction, damn you some kinda mathematical genius.
14:21:33 <alise> Can't argue with one of them.
14:21:42 <Wareya> hahaha
14:21:43 <alise> Not as if they can be flawed or anything
14:22:02 <Wareya> you can divide by zero
14:22:06 <Wareya> sometimes
14:22:51 <oklopol> what
14:23:09 <Wareya> y=x/0; 0y=x; x=0; y=0/0;
14:23:12 <oklopol> what you just said about proofs does sound like you've been doing some serious precalculus
14:23:22 <Wareya> I do some serious algebra
14:23:23 <oklopol> oh and that too
14:23:38 <oklopol> good, that should unmelt it
14:23:49 <Deewiant> Elementary algebra, presumably
14:23:55 <Wareya> no, high school algebra
14:23:59 <Wareya> :D
14:24:02 <Deewiant> Yes, that's elementary algebra.
14:24:06 <alise> >_,
14:24:06 <Wareya> Ah
14:24:07 <alise> *>_<
14:24:17 <Wareya> See, I'm actually IN high schoo
14:24:18 <Wareya> l
14:24:27 <Wareya> so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like
14:24:33 <Wareya> apples=oranges-2
14:24:50 <alise> Someone talk to em so I don't have to.
14:24:51 <Deewiant> I'm not calling it elementary, that's just what it's called :-P
14:24:56 <Wareya> lol
14:25:02 <Deewiant> To contrast with abstract algebra
14:25:05 <Wareya> yeah, "elementary" algebra
14:25:27 <oklopol> oh elementary algebra
14:25:29 <alise> Are you trying to express the notion that elementary algebra is difficult?
14:25:29 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra -- Wikipedia agrees with me so I must be right
14:25:33 <oklopol> that has nothing to do with algebra
14:25:36 <Wareya> no?
14:25:44 <Deewiant> oklopol: Sure it does
14:25:44 <oklopol> it's just tree rewriting
14:25:46 <alise> Then why "yeah, 'elementary' algebra"?
14:25:55 <Wareya> 09:23 < Wareya> See, I'm actually IN high schoo
14:25:56 <Wareya> 09:24 < Wareya> so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like
14:25:56 <oklopol> Deewiant: oh?
14:25:56 <Wareya> 09:24 < Wareya> apples=oranges-2
14:26:07 <alise> Wareya: No, that isn't an answer; it doesn't make any sense.
14:26:13 <Wareya> you're funny
14:26:15 <Wareya> makes sense to me
14:26:21 <alise> "How is calling it elementary strange from your perspective?" is the question.
14:26:21 <Wareya> oh wait of course it does
14:26:27 <alise> You are saying things but they don't seem to express any sort of coherent idea.
14:26:28 <Wareya> uh
14:26:33 <Wareya> elementary school
14:26:38 <Deewiant> oklopol: It's just the most basic concepts, restricted to an easy-to-understand set
14:26:41 <Wareya> grade school
14:26:54 <alise> Wareya: So, what, do you not know what the word "elementary" means?
14:26:58 <Wareya> yes
14:27:00 <Wareya> basic
14:27:09 <Wareya> though it means more than that
14:27:14 <Wareya> it pretty much means basic
14:27:20 <alise> Well, it is basic algebra.
14:27:23 <alise> So how is that strange at all?
14:27:24 <oklopol> Deewiant: so like group axioms and shit?
14:27:35 <oklopol> you can't get more basic than that in algebra
14:27:38 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, like equations and variables and shit :-P
14:27:51 <Wareya> becuase americans think of elementary as grade school
14:27:52 <Wareya> period
14:27:57 <Wareya> at least in massachusetts
14:28:13 <oklopol> variables are logic, not algebra, imo; algebra is about having operations and things, and rules for how the operations should work
14:28:27 <Deewiant> Yes, they are logic, but they're used in algebra
14:28:29 <Wareya> algebra is the manipulation of equations that contain variables
14:28:31 <oklopol> equations is, maybe, closer to algebra
14:28:40 <Wareya> functional variables I mean
14:28:59 <alise> I would highly expect that Massachusetts has one of the better educational systems in America.
14:29:00 <Deewiant> The set of things that you do in elementary algebra are a subset of the things you do in abstract algebra
14:29:02 <oklopol> well dunno really, to me they just don't seem to have any sort of real connection
14:29:09 <Wareya> Alise, I'm on the new york border
14:29:15 <alise> For one, it's probably the most liberal state; and, well, all dem universities.
14:29:27 <Wareya> 1) Taxachusetts
14:29:42 <Wareya> 2) The Berkshires suck at middle and high school
14:29:50 <Wareya> 3) I'm 14
14:29:57 <alise> EFFORTS TO tamp down antitax sentiment in Massachusetts got an unexpected boost last week: the small-government advocates at the National Tax Foundation in Washington, D.C., issued a report showing that the state's tax burden has dropped a few notches this year. The epithet "Taxachusetts" has been difficult to shake, but the foundation report ranks the state 23d out of 50 for the bite state and local taxes take out of a resident's paycheck. That's just abou
14:29:57 <alise> t the middle by anyone's calculation.
14:30:01 <alise> that took like five seconds to google up
14:30:10 <Wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield
14:30:13 <alise> you can't criticise left-wing policy by prefixing words with tax-
14:30:22 <Wareya> left wing policy is great
14:30:31 <alise> yes, you're 14, but I would presume some of the intellectualismamism from the unis would spill out
14:30:34 <oklopol> it's not about equations, it's about systems with objects and functions that map objects to other objects
14:30:36 <Wareya> but I'm so poor that I'm obliged to laugh at taxes
14:30:51 <oklopol> and you try to characterize what these systems look like, given some constraints on the operations
14:30:52 <alise> if they're balanced out by relevant social services then it's irrelevant
14:30:52 <Wareya> AGAIN
14:30:55 <Wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield
14:31:29 <oklopol> what you do in high school is you have a vague understanding of the real line, and you have one set of rules you need to learn to apply
14:31:51 <oklopol> i guess that does make it sound like they have a connection
14:32:48 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah okay maybe, but you only train the part that doesn't require any sort of thinking or understanding.
14:33:28 <Deewiant> Well, arguably you can do abstract algebra without any understanding as well
14:33:30 <oklopol> you could replace it by a class where you memorize axioms for different algebraic systems, although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing
14:33:46 <Wareya> Anyway
14:33:56 <Deewiant> In practice you can't because there are too many rules and it's not as easy to recognize when to use which one
14:34:07 <Wareya> the upper ends of my school are trying to get rid of all he autistic kids by failing them
14:34:08 <alise> "although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing"
14:34:20 <alise> you're being too snappy about education lately. stop it or i'll be forced to quote you
14:34:32 <alise> Wareya: you're not autistic.
14:34:38 <Wareya> They think I am
14:34:52 <Wareya> And no, I don't group aspergers with autism
14:35:17 <Wareya> to put it a way, one is a software issue, the other is a hardware issue
14:35:39 <Pthing> umm
14:35:51 <Pthing> that is the worst explanation of the difference i have ever heard
14:35:56 <Wareya> yes it is
14:35:57 <alise> indeed.
14:35:59 <Deewiant> I think if you actually have asperger's it's very much a hardware issue
14:36:07 <Wareya> Well
14:36:07 <alise> also, asperger's isn't real in like 90% of cases
14:36:12 <Deewiant> Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever
14:36:21 <Wareya> aspergers is often psychological
14:36:22 <alise> Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that.
14:36:35 <Deewiant> Well, I don't know about that
14:36:39 <Wareya> yes
14:36:50 <alise> Well, I know of at least one case... (me)
14:36:52 <Deewiant> I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me"
14:37:01 <Wareya> haha
14:37:04 <Wareya> it's the internet
14:37:15 <Wareya> also:
14:37:15 <Deewiant> One case does not a "most people" make
14:37:17 <Wareya> 09:36 < alise> Well, I know of at least one case... (me)
14:37:17 <Wareya> 09:36 < Deewiant> I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me"
14:37:20 <Wareya> epic timing
14:37:29 <alise> I just said I wasn't Asperger's, you fool.
14:37:37 <oklopol> alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed
14:37:41 <alise> <Deewiant> Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever
14:37:41 <alise> <alise> Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that.
14:37:41 <alise> <Deewiant> Well, I don't know about that
14:37:43 <Pthing> lol
14:37:43 <alise> <alise> Well, I know of at least one case... (me)
14:37:46 <Wareya> 09:37 < oklopol> alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed
14:37:47 <oklopol> it has absolutely no use to anyone
14:37:54 <Pthing> hilarious
14:37:58 <Wareya> I would agree if it weren't for grade school
14:38:05 <alise> Pthing: what, exactly, is hilarious? :p
14:38:11 <Deewiant> oklopol: Most people can't be dropped to university without any knowledge of the pre-university stuff
14:38:11 <Pthing> oklopol!
14:38:19 <oklopol> is that better?
14:38:25 <alise> Deewiant: intelligent people educate themselves
14:38:34 <Wareya> Deewiant: what alise said
14:38:34 <alise> well, so do dumb people, they just need constant poking in some direction to do it.
14:38:38 <Deewiant> alise: Not necessarily
14:38:43 <Wareya> almost always
14:38:46 <Deewiant> Many grow into intelligence
14:38:54 <alise> Deewiant: Name one?
14:39:13 <Deewiant> I didn't enjoy school, for the most part, until I was maybe 12 years old
14:39:15 <Wareya> alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch
14:39:19 <Deewiant> I still learned the stuff, of course
14:39:23 <alise> Deewiant: That is completely unrelated to education.
14:39:26 <alise> Or intelligence.
14:39:33 <Wareya> 09:38 < alise> Deewiant: Name one?
14:39:34 <Wareya> 09:38 < Wareya> alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch
14:39:34 <Deewiant> Of course it's related to education
14:39:40 <alise> Name someone who grew into intelligence, not someone who grew into liking education.
14:39:41 <oklopol> anyway there are just numbers and lists, so i'm not sure a separator between list elements makes much sense
14:39:52 <alise> State education, at that, which isn't really much education. Maybe it's better in Finland.
14:40:06 <alise> oklopol: yeah i think you should drop commas from function args too
14:40:08 <Wareya> american middle and high schools
14:40:09 <Deewiant> alise: I mean, without the years of education before that point, I'd've been lagging behind others
14:40:09 <Wareya> SUCK
14:40:10 <Wareya> ASS
14:40:24 <Deewiant> And you'd call me an idiot if I were here with 10 years less education than I've got
14:40:28 <Deewiant> (Probably.)
14:40:33 <alise> Deewiant: You can't know whether you would have self-directed your education or not.
14:40:39 <Deewiant> Exactly
14:40:43 <Wareya> I would probably look far more like I have aspergers if it weren't for elementary school
14:40:49 <Deewiant> And thus it's safer to force people into education
14:40:54 <alise> Presumably you had enough intelligence so that if you did not find intellectual stimulation you would become bored.
14:41:00 <Wareya> I'd be all over mechanics and programming, like I am now, but nothing else
14:41:03 <alise> Deewiant: No, I was questioning whether you wouldn't.
14:41:10 <Deewiant> Boredom does not mean you'll do something useful
14:41:12 <Deewiant> See procastination
14:41:17 <Deewiant> procrastination*
14:41:19 <Wareya> HEY
14:41:24 <Wareya> procrastination isn't out of boredom
14:41:34 <Wareya> it's out of lack of intrest in what you're procrastinating
14:41:34 <Deewiant> I didn't say it was
14:41:37 <Wareya> okay
14:41:40 <alise> Shrug
14:41:44 <alise> Maybe I'm just speshul
14:41:53 <Wareya> ANYWAY
14:42:00 <Deewiant> I'm inclined to think you are: you're smarter than most people my age that I know
14:42:04 <Wareya> back to what started this (I think)
14:42:10 <alise> Mommmy says I'm thus!
14:42:11 <Wareya> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat
14:42:15 <alise> Yes, with THREE Ms!
14:42:20 <alise> I'm extra-mmm!
14:42:25 <Wareya> HOW THE HELL would I write an interpreter for this shit?
14:42:33 <Deewiant> (Apart from when you act like an idiot, but I guess a lot of people my age do that too, so shrug)
14:42:43 <alise> I'm hoping to grow out of that :P
14:42:55 <Deewiant> People do.
14:43:10 <Wareya> Be right back
14:43:15 <Wareya> too much soda withotu enough food
14:43:16 <alise> i'm actually kinda scared that i'll hit my upper bound on intelligence at like 20
14:43:21 <oklopol> i don't remember what grade school is
14:43:30 <Deewiant> alise: Most people do, too. :-P
14:43:35 <alise> would be horrible to go through 60 more years with first equal, then declining intelligence
14:43:38 <Deewiant> After that it's just accumulating knowledge
14:43:41 <alise> Deewiant: ehh I'd say people change a lot from 20 to 25
14:43:48 <Deewiant> Well, whatever
14:43:52 <alise> well yes but there's a finite amount of relevant knowledge I could accumulate too
14:43:55 <Deewiant> Certainly before your 30s anyway
14:44:30 <alise> i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P
14:45:09 <Deewiant> Decay doesn't matter if the singularity works out nicely
14:45:17 <Deewiant> But I wouldn't bet on a singularity, anyway :-P
14:45:28 <alise> i may believe many things about what a singularity can do, reversing entropy isn't one
14:45:45 <alise> and I don't believe the brain is sufficiently modularised to allow me to be imported into a shiny new cognitive facility without the decay
14:45:47 <Wareya> a singularity is the opposite of entropy
14:45:51 <alise> they're probably mixed
14:45:56 <alise> Wareya: not that kind of singularity.
14:45:58 <Wareya> unless it's an effective one instead of a physical one
14:46:00 <Wareya> k
14:46:08 <alise> technological singularity
14:46:13 <Wareya> Oh, of course
14:46:22 <oklopol> Deewiant: i'm not sure continuing this conversation is very fruitful, you know perfectly well i'll never agree with your perfectly sensible statements.
14:46:42 <Wareya> You mean argument.
14:46:50 <alise> Deewiant: I don't bet on a singularity, I hope for it
14:46:54 <Deewiant> oklopol: If you say so :-)
14:47:01 <Deewiant> alise: I didn't claim you do
14:47:12 <alise> I bet that a singularity is possible, and I maybe-bet that a singularity is quite feasible.
14:47:27 <Wareya> singularities are possible if time travel is
14:47:35 <Wareya> I mean reverse time travel
14:47:48 <Deewiant> But time travel is unlikely enough that that's not a very fruitful angle
14:47:50 <Wareya> I'd be incluned to say the converse too, but I don't know.
14:48:44 <alise> anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain
14:48:53 <Pthing> :|
14:49:02 <Wareya> Alise, what if a brain and its consciousness were perfectly duplicated?
14:49:06 <alise> so I guess it's in my interest to try and cause a singularity before that's even a consideration
14:49:10 <alise> Wareya: oh god not this, we argued about this last night
14:49:13 <Pthing> i liked this better when it was doomsday
14:49:18 <Wareya> I don't recall
14:49:24 <alise> Pthing: define this
14:49:30 <Wareya> Oh right
14:49:34 <Pthing> Ways To Avoid Death
14:49:47 <Wareya> I have a radical point of view on that stuff
14:49:55 <alise> Pthing: thou art confusing me
14:50:01 <alise> Wareya: tell me it so that i may tell you how unradical it is.
14:50:02 <Pthing> what's so confusing
14:50:08 <alise> Pthing: define define this
14:50:33 <Pthing> <alise> anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain
14:50:41 <Pthing> <alise> i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P
14:50:59 <alise> oh I don't put the probability of a lovely magical singularity all that high
14:51:14 <Pthing> 1 corinthians 15
14:51:43 <alise> likening singularitarianism to religion, yawn
14:51:50 <Pthing> 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immort
14:51:50 <Pthing> ality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
14:52:03 <Pthing> the exact same sentiment right there
14:52:26 <Wareya> Any analog "computer" may be conscious, consciousnesses are detatched from their "computer", and they follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level and manipulare elementary particles to cause free will. This of course makes time travel on an above-physical level completely possible, which of course makes those eleven dimensions necesary, ruining relativity without string theory.
14:52:50 <Wareya> Tell me that's not radical in any way,
14:53:08 <alise> "y follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level "
14:53:12 <Pthing> i am not sure it is meaningful
14:53:15 <Pthing> let alone radical
14:53:19 <alise> my brain lunged my head away so that I could not read further once I read that
14:53:27 <alise> I have an allergic reaction to quantum mysticism
14:53:39 <Wareya> AAIWEFHQPWE"ZSD(_VFU@C_FXs
14:53:44 <Pthing> really, why
14:53:51 <Wareya> why what
14:53:55 <alise> Pthing: singularity theory isn't about "oh the world is going to be great" though it's just applied self-improving ai
14:54:01 <alise> and how we can direct its goals
14:54:04 <oklopol> \o/
14:54:08 <oklopol> i think ski works
14:54:21 <alise> it's not "this will make GREAT THINGS" it's "we can make this really powerful thing, and here's a way to make it aim for great things"
14:54:40 <Pthing> specifically to help you, one alise, transform your natural body into a spiritual one
14:54:42 <Wareya> alise: Would a singularity be able to code Boat interpreter in 80 characters or less? :D
14:54:50 <Wareya> code a*
14:54:54 <alise> Pthing: no, I absolutely disbelieve in the existence of the spiritual
14:54:59 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt <<< also god i find this pretty
14:55:05 <Pthing> oh well that's a useful position
14:55:11 <oklopol> also notice cadaar and cadar, had to cheat a bit :<
14:55:11 <alise> I believe that minds can be run on computers, but that's *because* i'm a monist
14:55:35 <Wareya> I believe that digital and analog computation can only be converted in one direction
14:55:39 <alise> the only reason singularitarianism seems so "mystic" is because of the basic fact that we cannot know what something more intelligent than us will deem correct, even if we have told it what it should aim for
14:55:51 <Pthing> lol
14:55:52 <alise> because it in the end decides how to achieve that, and we cannot be smarter than ourselves
14:55:54 <Pthing> sure we can
14:56:00 <Pthing> we've been doing it for centuries
14:56:19 <Wareya> see: evolution
14:56:31 <alise> when I come back after going brb, I expect you to be behaving as a transhuman would be
14:56:46 <alise> i will then repeat. let's see if we can't cause a hard takeoff by sheer force of imagination.
14:56:52 <alise> no? okay then. brb ->
14:58:27 -!- Asztal has joined.
14:58:47 <Pthing> I DON'T KNOW, GO READ A BOOK
14:58:50 <Wareya> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat
14:58:53 <Wareya> BUT I SUCK
14:59:11 <Wareya> BUT THAT'S HARDER
14:59:18 <oklopol> all the girls are at their parents' houses :<
14:59:47 <Wareya> but seriously
15:00:01 <Wareya> am I insane for trying to make something like this
15:00:09 <Pthing> ya ttly lol ^__________^
15:00:19 <Wareya> okay
15:00:20 <Deewiant> Is it significantly more fucked up than Funge-98?
15:00:29 <Wareya> yes
15:00:50 <alise> no
15:01:14 <oklopol> Wareya: what's hard about it?
15:01:23 <oklopol> i mean which command?
15:01:30 <Wareya> expression handling
15:01:46 <oklopol> expression handling? what do you mean
15:01:50 <Wareya> I have nesting and anarchistic flow control
15:01:54 <Wareya> ...
15:01:55 <oklopol> oh you have nesting
15:02:00 <oklopol> okay i'll actually read that
15:02:02 <Wareya> lol
15:02:54 <oklopol> well nesting + 2d is pure genius
15:03:01 <Wareya> inorite:D
15:03:09 <oklopol> that's why i was surprised
15:03:15 <oklopol> but umm
15:03:17 <Wareya> wait, are you serious?
15:03:20 <oklopol> yes
15:03:31 <oklopol> you clearly can't parse, so it should be pretty easy
15:03:49 <Wareya> I just raped C, gave it a memory strip, and put it in a character array
15:03:50 <oklopol> ^ that wasn't serious, i just hate parsing because i parsed last night
15:04:09 <oklopol> yeah, but you did 2d + nesting, and it became genius
15:04:19 <Wareya> but C made the nesting
15:04:30 <Wareya> and the flow control can seriously be anywhere
15:04:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
15:04:50 <Wareya> Like
15:04:59 <Wareya> v=`n`(? <
15:04:59 <Wareya> ?(`n`!=3){`n`=`n`+1;v}^
15:04:59 <Wareya> ^ 1 }<
15:04:59 <Wareya> >);
15:05:07 <Wareya> that's outdated, but it shows what I mean
15:05:23 <oklopol> you took 2d, and you took nesting, and you put them together, i think that's a new idea, so i claim it's genius.
15:05:26 <oklopol> but
15:05:38 <Wareya> but?
15:05:42 <Wareya> oh mn
15:05:43 <Wareya> man
15:05:49 <Wareya> I'll need to go over and over expressions
15:05:56 <Wareya> meaning i'll need to safe their coordinates
15:06:00 <Wareya> and I'll need to nest THAT
15:06:01 <Wareya> FUUUUUUCK
15:06:04 <oklopol> not sure it actually amounts to anything that interesting given that you have so much stuff you'll probably just end up writing pretty normal 1d programs
15:06:25 <Wareya> so I should strip it down?
15:06:34 <Wareya> (At least I don't have functions)
15:06:44 <oklopol> well i think so
15:06:45 <oklopol> dunno
15:07:22 <Wareya> yeah I realized how much bloat I have here just now
15:07:31 <Wareya> it's more than I think I originally wanted
15:07:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:08:07 <oklopol> i mean you can still have a nice amount of stuff in there, i'd just remove some of the technical details about segment sizes
15:08:17 <Wareya> what do you mean?
15:08:24 <oklopol> well you know i'd just have bignums :P
15:08:33 <Wareya> I don't know what bignums are :D
15:08:43 <oklopol> access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits.
15:08:54 <Wareya> but that's the best part!
15:08:56 <oklopol> that's too complicated for my small brain
15:08:56 <oklopol> oh?
15:08:59 <Wareya> yes
15:09:01 <oklopol> how so
15:09:12 <Wareya> it's how people hate dealing with endianness
15:09:21 <Wareya> and bits
15:09:26 <oklopol> ah, i see
15:09:29 <Wareya> so I went "Hey let's do both"
15:09:39 <oklopol> if it's a thing, then it's fine.
15:09:41 <Wareya> <tr><td>n^^(n,n)</td><td>"rolling" exponent - 4^^(2,3) would be 4^2^2^2</td></tr>
15:09:43 <oklopol> :P
15:09:44 <Wareya> DELETE
15:10:25 <Wareya> q{n}access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits.
15:10:29 <Wareya> q{n}[m]array with segments the size of n with the "origin" data value being at address q - with big endian, again.
15:10:32 <Wareya> q{n}[m][b]multidimensional array
15:10:34 <Wareya> q{n}=jset value at memory address q of size n to j
15:10:37 <Wareya> q{n}[m]=jset value at spot m in an array to j
15:10:39 <Wareya> q{n}[y]use value of size n at address q as an address for a value size y
15:10:42 <Wareya> is this excessive?
15:11:11 <Wareya> bye strings
15:11:15 <oklopol> :P
15:11:25 <Wareya> I realized
15:11:41 <Wareya> that I don't need the built in variables at all
15:12:12 <oklopol> so someone gimme a nice ski program
15:12:55 <Wareya> %(0[1]<5){0[1]=0[1]+1};
15:13:01 <Wareya> this is valid Boat as of right now
15:13:12 <Wareya> Oh, do I need loops?
15:13:18 <Wareya> seeing as it's 2D and I have a goto and all
15:13:19 <oklopol> definitely
15:13:21 <oklopol> you have to use nesting
15:13:23 <oklopol> for stuff
15:13:25 <Wareya> I mean
15:13:33 <Wareya> you can use if tests
15:13:39 <Wareya> and move out of the line of execution
15:13:43 <Wareya> forcing you to use 2D
15:13:45 <Wareya> or goto
15:14:21 <Wareya> I'm going to try to write something in ski jus to not be an asshole
15:14:25 <alise> Wareya: bignum = arbitrary size integer
15:14:31 <alise> stores in memory when it overflows an int
15:14:33 <Wareya> But that's lazy!
15:14:35 <alise> like python's ints
15:14:38 <alise> no it isn't
15:14:41 <Wareya> hsuh
15:14:45 <Wareya> hush*
15:14:57 <oklopol> it's not lazy, integers are always finite
15:15:18 <oklopol> lazy is when you have an infinite thing, not when you have an infinitely extendable thing
15:15:23 <Wareya> Besides, that ruins the fun of fucking with people
15:15:43 <Wareya> Multi-endian + bits
15:15:45 <alise> since you randomly stepped on genius by istake i'm just gonna tarpit the idea.
15:15:50 <oklopol> yeah, sure; as i said, if it's a thing, it's okay, i'd just make it really high level because that's the furthest away from funges.
15:16:09 <Wareya> huh?
15:16:18 <oklopol> well you know i'd want like recursion and stuff
15:16:35 <oklopol> but, maybe still bytes for storage
15:16:35 <Wareya> you can do that
15:16:41 <Wareya> but you don't have functions, just gotos
15:16:46 <Wareya> you can deal with bytes
15:16:55 <oklopol> but a stack + nesting + 2d mmmmmmmmmm
15:17:03 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:17:07 <Wareya> (address*16)[16]
15:17:11 <Wareya> BYTES
15:17:25 <oklopol> bytes \o/
15:17:53 <Wareya> anyway, working with bits is better for people who want to ultra-optimize
15:18:12 <Wareya> and working with bytes isn't that much of a pain in the ass
15:18:40 <oklopol> working with high level stuff is not a pain in the ass if you use a modern language
15:18:47 <Wareya> like C
15:18:51 <oklopol> hehe
15:18:56 <oklopol> yeah totally
15:18:56 <Wareya> I love C
15:19:00 <Wareya> except for file i/o
15:19:04 <Wareya> because I suck at it
15:19:06 <oklopol> :D
15:19:09 <oklopol> you're killing me
15:19:19 <Wareya> :D
15:19:23 <Wareya> how so
15:19:34 <alise> rather Wareya than asiekierka
15:19:44 <alise> [suddenly, out of nowhere, the latter appears]
15:19:46 <alise> ...but not both.
15:19:51 <oklopol> well file io is you say file @ this address, then you read/write strings back and forth
15:20:04 <Wareya> it's not that simple
15:20:07 <oklopol> if you can *not understand* how to do that, your language is pretty much as bad as it can be
15:20:11 <oklopol> yeah, it's not that simple
15:20:12 <oklopol> in C.
15:20:21 <Wareya> you need to deal with something dealing with pointers in a way that isn't normal
15:20:22 <oklopol> it damn fucking hell is that simple in any modern language
15:20:22 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
15:20:31 <Wareya> hehe
15:20:35 <Wareya> like python
15:20:36 <Wareya> :D
15:20:43 <Wareya> python is ungodly at strings
15:20:48 <Wareya> but sucks at evverything else
15:20:50 <Wareya> -v
15:21:05 <oklopol> yeah python doesn't have tail recursion
15:21:24 <oklopol> but other than that...
15:21:44 <oklopol> well, actually i try my best to hate python, because i'd like it if i sometimes used another langauge
15:21:46 <Wareya> I need to rewrite my last example
15:21:48 <oklopol> *language
15:21:55 <Wareya> lol
15:22:21 <alise> i went through io is damn hard -> io is fucking easy -> io is damn hard in my language now but these super type features will make it the easiest possible except with safety... just a few more equations and it'll do it...
15:22:28 <alise> the last one is bliss.
15:22:39 <Wareya> lol
15:22:40 <MissPiggy> muuu
15:24:02 <alise> just talk about type theory and suddenly MissPiggy appears
15:25:03 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:25:03 <oklopol> MissPiggy: SO DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SKI
15:25:11 <MissPiggy> oh?
15:25:16 <MissPiggy> what hapened
15:25:26 <oklopol> i did it in clue
15:25:33 <MissPiggy> oh nice
15:25:45 <MissPiggy> wow cool!!! show me ?
15:25:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt
15:25:58 <alise> orgasmic
15:26:12 <oklopol> a few functions are total cheats
15:26:15 <Wareya> I fixed all of the Boat examples :D
15:26:25 <oklopol> Wareya: CLUE WAS HERE FIRST!
15:26:31 <Wareya> :C
15:26:36 <alise> how are they cheats
15:26:47 <Wareya> hackish
15:26:51 <alise> oklopol: so does this thing compile
15:26:57 <oklopol> yes!
15:26:58 <alise> if so show the output, I wanna see how efficient it compiles to
15:27:11 <oklopol> there's no way to see the output yet
15:27:14 <alise> dump the ast
15:27:18 <oklopol> i'll add that, but it's nontrivial
15:27:22 <oklopol> well
15:27:32 <oklopol> okay it's trivial, but it will still take some time
15:27:36 <MissPiggy> oh my god !!!!!!!!
15:27:39 <oklopol> see there's no ast, there's just python code.
15:27:47 <MissPiggy> how the hell does this work
15:27:52 <oklopol> i compiled to lambdas for funsies
15:27:55 <oklopol> :P
15:28:05 <oklopol> MissPiggy: it's just brute force
15:28:18 <alise> oklopol: print the python code then
15:28:24 <oklopol> hmm, well okay maybe
15:28:29 <alise> just replace return (lambda bitchass: ...) with return "(lambda bitchass: ...)" or w/e :P
15:28:46 <oklopol> yeah i guess that'd work
15:29:12 <oklopol> the "glue" function that does all the work is just a bit... not optimally pretty :P
15:29:19 <oklopol> well
15:29:25 <oklopol> i guess it's just one line i'll need to fix tho
15:29:28 <oklopol> or change
15:29:39 <oklopol> maybe i'll make it always also return some sorta AST, maybe that's simple
15:30:09 <oklopol> but first, someone give me some ski, i've just tested trivial stuff
15:30:32 <oklopol> MissPiggy: or did you mean how does the ski interp work?
15:30:45 <oklopol> because i think the code is pretty easy to read
15:30:46 -!- Gregor has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:30:56 <Wareya> it's pitiful that I have 9 updates in a row on the recent changes list
15:31:03 <MissPiggy> yeah i can read it
15:31:07 <MissPiggy> it's just CDR coding
15:31:15 -!- Gregor has joined.
15:31:45 <MissPiggy> how long does that file take to compile?
15:31:55 <oklopol> yeah most of ski is just list manipulation, the only hard part i guess was to get "ski type?" to work, and to get "ski apply" to actually compile, had to add cadaar and cadar
15:32:03 <oklopol> like a few minutes
15:32:04 <oklopol> :D
15:32:09 <MissPiggy> nice
15:32:21 -!- base3 has joined.
15:32:36 <Wareya> I don't know anything abotu ski
15:32:38 <Wareya> educate me
15:32:50 <oklopol> oh wait 9 seconds now
15:32:52 <Wareya> about*
15:33:37 <pikhq> Wareya: S = \x y z.x z (y z)
15:33:44 <pikhq> Wareya: K = \x y.x
15:33:58 <pikhq> The above is Turing complete.
15:34:07 <Wareya> wait, what?
15:34:35 <pikhq> Any lambda calculus expression can be compiled into usage of S and K.
15:34:36 <alise> pikhq: he only knows C, Python and some game maker scripting language thing
15:34:40 <alise> and says he hates functional languages
15:34:44 <pikhq> alise: Oh dear.
15:34:45 <alise> sooo
15:34:49 <alise> it'll probably take a few hours to explain SKI
15:34:53 <oklopol> Wareya: if you have (((s a) b) c) somewhere, you'll change it to ((a c) (b c)), if you have ((k a) b) somewhere, you change it to just a
15:34:58 <MissPiggy> alise functional languages are hiary
15:35:01 <MissPiggy> hairy
15:35:02 <alise> oklopol: that also
15:35:05 <pikhq> Wareya: Let's start with lambda.
15:35:09 <alise> let's not
15:35:12 <alise> ski is just term rewriting
15:35:22 <pikhq> Wareya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus
15:35:23 <alise> ((S a) b) c -> (a c) (b c)
15:35:26 <pikhq> :P
15:35:28 <alise> (K a) b -> a
15:35:29 <MissPiggy> lambda calculus is kind of hard to start with to explain SK
15:35:33 <alise> we can use this to model functions
15:35:40 <alise> let I = ((S K) K)
15:35:54 <alise> (I x) -> (((S K) K) x)
15:36:07 <alise> -> (K x) (K x)
15:36:25 <alise> which is (K a) b
15:36:30 <alise> a = x, b = (K x)
15:36:33 <alise> so we rewrite it to x
15:36:43 <alise> so, from two rewrite rules, we can express a function that takes an argument and returns it
15:36:55 <oklopol> the thing is you have to understand how to translate all those parens into nested structures in your head, not sure C teaches that
15:36:56 <alise> we can express any turing-computable function with only combinations of these S and K terms
15:37:09 <alise> thus, it is a turing-complete programming language.
15:37:14 <oklopol> well, Wareya can probably say he has no idea what's going on, himself, if that's the case
15:37:21 * alise winces and braces for the "it can't do IO so C is more powerful"
15:37:33 <MissPiggy> you can do IO in C
15:37:39 <alise> err... yes, yes you can
15:37:47 <oklopol> asm is even more tc than C
15:38:27 <oklopol> (8.3 seconds without any debug info)
15:38:31 <alise> LC is lame for theoretical purity if you have SK
15:38:31 <oklopol> i'll add asts now
15:38:47 <alise> oklopol: just replace "lambda x: y" with Lambda("x", y) etc :P
15:38:55 <alise> or even ('lam','x',y) knowing you
15:39:01 <pikhq> alise: Oh, hey. Don't think you saw.
15:39:11 <pikhq> alise: I wrote a SK evaluator in C.
15:39:18 <pikhq> alise: Using my lambda macro.
15:39:20 <alise> I saw.
15:39:27 <alise> Probably while reading the logs last week.
15:39:28 <pikhq> Oh, right. Log reading.
15:39:29 <pikhq> XD
15:39:38 <oklopol> alise once compiled underload to c
15:39:52 <MissPiggy> Wareya, let me try to explain,
15:40:01 <oklopol> Wareya: do you understand how (1 (2 3)) is a tree?
15:40:11 <Wareya> NOPE
15:40:12 <alise> > S a b c = a c (b c);
15:40:13 <alise> > K a b = a;
15:40:13 <alise> > S K K a;
15:40:13 <alise> a
15:40:13 <alise> > S a K b;
15:40:13 <alise> a b (K b)
15:40:15 <alise> Pure is awesome
15:40:18 <MissPiggy> Wareya, imagine you have a forest with lots of different kinds of birds in it
15:40:22 <oklopol> :D
15:40:27 <Wareya> TOO STUPID OF A METAPHOR
15:40:29 <Wareya> TRY AGAIN
15:40:33 <oklopol> MissPiggy <3
15:40:40 <alise> rich coming from "ASPERGER'S IS sOFtWARE aUTISM IS HARDWARE" man
15:40:49 <Wareya> YES
15:40:56 <MissPiggy> Wareya that was pretty rude
15:41:00 <alise> > S I I a;
15:41:01 <alise> a a
15:41:02 <Wareya> I APOLOGIZE
15:41:10 <alise> symbolic evaluation is a wonderful thing
15:41:17 <MissPiggy> yeah but you kind of lost it
15:41:18 <Wareya> I AM PISSY, GIDDY, AND HYPER
15:41:25 <MissPiggy> I don't really care what you are
15:41:28 <Wareya> OKAY
15:41:38 <Wareya> How about no caps lock?\
15:41:41 <base3> hi MissPiggy
15:42:00 <MissPiggy> peace
15:45:23 <MissPiggy> alise you know I spent the whole night dreaming about the link between complexn numbers and consciousness -_-
15:45:30 <Wareya> lol
15:45:33 <alise> XD
15:45:53 <MissPiggy> another one of those mornings when you wake up with a headache
15:45:53 <Wareya> are you saying that complex numbers aren't computable?
15:46:09 <Wareya> (at least not digitally)
15:46:09 <MissPiggy> Wareya -- do you want to try again?
15:46:13 <Wareya> yes
15:46:26 <alise> wait, you think a digital computer cannot be conscious?
15:46:36 <alise> only an analogue one?
15:46:39 <Wareya> I do not believe that digital computers can be conscious
15:46:42 <Wareya> only analog ones
15:46:50 <Wareya> but only the core needs to be consious
15:46:58 <alise> Wareya: okay listen
15:47:01 <alise> you know what a neuron is?
15:47:01 <Wareya> so, an analog computer could run a digital one
15:47:03 <Wareya> yes
15:47:05 <alise> billions of them in our brain right
15:47:08 <Wareya> yes
15:47:09 <alise> you know we can emulate them on digital computers right?
15:47:11 <alise> and do so
15:47:16 <Wareya> emulate
15:47:23 <Wareya> they emulate analog sound effects
15:47:24 <alise> yes. emulate is the same thing as run natively, just slower
15:47:25 <MissPiggy> Wareya so there is a bird called the idiot bird, because whatever you say to it -- it just says it back. we can represent it as Ix = x. for example if II = I. And theres another bird called the mocking bird which repeats everything it hears twice Mx = xx.
15:47:31 <Wareya> on digital computers
15:47:34 <alise> also neurons are primarily digital...
15:47:43 <Wareya> yet they have an analog section
15:47:47 <alise> furthermore, you have not provided any evidence for your claim
15:47:52 <Wareya> that's the part I think causes consciousness
15:47:54 <Wareya> of course I haven't
15:47:58 <Wareya> that's why I said it was radical
15:48:01 <alise> unless you do so, I have no obligation to consider it
15:48:02 <Wareya> piggy: okayy reading now
15:48:09 <Wareya> -y
15:48:12 <MissPiggy> Wareya so if I call 'Idiot' to the Mocking bird it calles out idiot idiot and then idiot bird just says idiot, so that is MI = II = I, do you understand?
15:48:26 <alise> MissPiggy: just go for S and K
15:48:28 <alise> M isn't important
15:48:28 <pikhq> alise: I suspect this is going to end up in the Chinese room argument.
15:49:25 <Wareya> yes
15:49:27 <Wareya> I understand
15:50:11 -!- Libster has joined.
15:50:24 <Libster> butts
15:50:27 <Wareya> alise: Like I said, my excuse is that analog computers that run the consciousness hook up to digital ones to do logical work
15:50:44 <Wareya> Yes, that is very, very asinine
15:50:50 <Libster> thnx
15:50:54 <Wareya> not you :D
15:50:55 <Pthing> i too
15:50:55 <alise> Libster: wat
15:50:57 <Libster> oh
15:51:00 <Libster> i am trolling
15:51:01 <Pthing> get my models of consciousness from like
15:51:03 <Pthing> pulp novels
15:51:03 <Libster> am i doing a good job?
15:51:07 <Wareya> nope
15:51:10 <Libster> :(
15:51:12 <alise> I am so confused in the few seconds since you joined
15:51:15 <Wareya> go rtoll 4chan by being a shitty troll like I do
15:51:19 <Wareya> troll*
15:51:19 <Libster> please tell me how i can do a better job Wareya
15:51:22 <MissPiggy> sorry guys this is my fault
15:51:24 <Pthing> woah that must take some doing
15:51:25 -!- MissPiggy has left (?).
15:51:26 <alise> you think *you* *trolled* 4chan?
15:51:30 <Wareya> no
15:51:35 <Wareya> just some people on it
15:51:40 <Wareya> that thought I was a bad troll
15:51:42 <alise> no, they were trolling you
15:51:51 <Wareya> cockblocking trolls is a sacred art!
15:52:05 <Libster> so what are you nerds up to
15:52:12 <Wareya> something awesome
15:52:25 <Libster> cool
15:52:34 <Wareya> 10:51 < MissPiggy> sorry guys this is my fault
15:52:36 <Wareya> 10:51 -!- MissPiggy [~none@unaffiliated/fax] has left #esoteric []
15:52:38 <Wareya> i sad
15:53:04 <Libster> idiot
15:53:11 <base3> idiot idiot
15:53:12 <Wareya> but i AM an idiot
15:53:17 <Libster> idiot
15:53:20 <base3> idiot idiot
15:53:20 <Wareya> that made my day, base3
15:53:22 <alise> Wareya: don't feed Libster and base3, they followed misspiggy here
15:53:29 <Libster> but i am hungry
15:53:33 <Wareya> cool
15:53:43 <Libster> please feed me
15:53:48 * Wareya fedds libster
15:53:53 <Libster> thanks bud
15:53:55 <Wareya> I'mma fedd you
15:54:00 <Libster> cool
15:54:01 <base3> i knew this channel was full of fedds
15:54:07 <Wareya> I'm kidding.
15:54:19 <Wareya> Alise, please tell me how to slim down Boat
15:54:21 <Wareya> :(
15:54:23 <base3> watch out Libster they might track you down and arrest you
15:54:32 <Libster> oh no!!!!
15:54:51 <alise> Wareya: see /msg.
15:55:05 <base3> no problem Libster just mask your ip with /quit
15:55:18 <Libster> hey i invented a new eosteric programming language
15:55:18 <base3> type /quit IP
15:55:22 <Libster> here's the syntax
15:55:25 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:26 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:26 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:26 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:26 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:27 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:28 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:30 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:32 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:34 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:36 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:38 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:40 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:42 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:44 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:46 <Libster> SPAM
15:55:50 <Libster> pretty funny, right?
15:56:00 <Pthing> lol montey pythan
15:56:04 <Pthing> i love that british humouur
15:56:10 <Libster> fuck i hate british humor
15:56:11 <Wareya> hey pthing
15:56:14 <Libster> and i hate british
15:56:14 <Pthing> hi!
15:56:17 <Wareya> how about you?
15:56:23 <Pthing> im fine
15:56:24 <Wareya> tell me how to slim down Boat
15:56:27 <Pthing> idk
15:56:32 <Pthing> eat less
15:56:35 <Pthing> exercise more
15:57:13 <Wareya> question
15:57:27 <Wareya> does 4^(4^4) end up being the same as 4^4^4^4 ever
15:57:32 <Wareya> or any change of the parenthesis
15:58:40 <base3> Wareya: if you take (4^4) or a higher tower as a power ever
15:58:56 <base3> it will clearly end up bigger than 4^(4^4)
15:59:01 <Wareya> like I'm thinkin of doing something like
15:59:07 <base3> since you still have to add in another 4 somewhere
15:59:11 <Wareya> 4^^4=4^4^4^4
15:59:13 <base3> so the only possibility is
15:59:20 <alise> Congratulations, you invented tetration
15:59:22 <Wareya> and 4^^^4=4^^4^^4^^4=UGH
15:59:25 <Libster> power tower
15:59:30 <Wareya> great because I don't know what that is
15:59:31 <alise> Knuth wants a word with you.
15:59:31 <base3> 4^(4^4) = (((4^4)^4)^4)
15:59:33 <FireFly> What about knith arrows?
15:59:36 <FireFly> with u
15:59:37 <Libster> knuth arrows
15:59:39 <Wareya> can you link me to an article?
15:59:41 <alise> Wareya:
15:59:44 <FireFly> See wikipedia
15:59:45 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation
16:00:08 <oklopol> Libster!!!
16:00:09 <Wareya> therefore I say I'll learn it later
16:00:10 <oklopol> :D
16:00:12 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
16:00:14 <Libster> hi
16:00:20 <Libster> i am trolling this channel
16:00:40 <Wareya> Super Cave Story, Bro
16:00:54 <oklopol> Libster: wanna see my new ski interp?
16:00:59 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt
16:01:03 <Libster> what does tha tmean
16:01:06 <Libster> sorry i am not a nerd
16:01:14 <oklopol> compiles in just 8.5 seconds
16:01:20 <Libster> cool what are you talking about
16:01:23 <base3> but 4^(4^4) does not equal ((4^4)^4)^4, because it clearly equals (((4^4)^4)^4)^4
16:01:24 <oklopol> ski is this combinatory logic thingie
16:01:45 <Libster> o
16:01:48 <oklopol> you just have three functions and you apply them to each other
16:02:01 <oklopol> i just use it to test my languages because it's trivial to implement
16:02:25 <base3> it's based on the theory that three idiots working together can accomplish anything
16:02:32 <oklopol> but this is so great, Libster and base3 on #eso
16:02:36 <oklopol> it's like christmas
16:02:42 <Libster> true
16:02:56 <Libster> we came here to troll
16:03:05 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:03:13 <Libster> hahah alament is here
16:03:27 <oklopol> sometimes
16:03:28 <alise> yeah he's our friendly op.
16:03:35 <alise> not that he ever does any opping. and he isn't really friendly
16:04:03 <oklopol> this isn't really his thing anymore, but he enjoys listening to us with his ears
16:04:06 <base3> oklopol: do i know you?
16:04:17 <oklopol> base3: no, but i often watch you on #math
16:04:31 -!- lament has joined.
16:04:43 <Libster> hi lament
16:04:58 <oklopol> but me and Libster are best buds
16:05:01 <base3> oklopol: if you're interesting in antisocial or potentially unlawful activities tangentially related to math, you should join #~math
16:05:13 <oklopol> totally
16:05:43 <base3> we're sort of like a outlaw math gang
16:05:48 <oklopol> i used to be there, i just tend to part all channels when vista decides it can't open any more windows unless i part a few channels.
16:05:49 <Libster> true
16:05:50 <Wareya> Super Cave Story, Bro
16:05:53 <oklopol> i see
16:06:04 <oklopol> i always thought you were a bit cooler than the other mathholes
16:06:10 <Libster> true
16:06:49 <alise> so are you guys going to have sex, in which case just get (a) a room and (b) it over with, or else just, you know, I don't know, I didn't consider this case when deciding to be an asshole
16:07:08 <Sgeo_> alise, picture?
16:07:10 <Wareya> lol
16:07:22 <base3> lol alise
16:07:25 <Sgeo_> erm, actually, given the context, that sounds kind of strange. You know what I mean
16:07:44 <Libster> can i have sex with you alise
16:08:05 <alise> Sgeo_: not now, I'm busy whoring out my body to *other* people
16:08:20 <oklopol> only regulars can have sex with alise
16:08:29 <Libster> can i have sex with you oklopol
16:08:35 <oklopol> troll cocks are too big
16:08:40 <Libster> true
16:08:56 <oklopol> we could do math together
16:09:01 -!- alise has left (?).
16:09:03 -!- alise has joined.
16:10:59 <Wareya> guys
16:11:05 <Wareya> what should I do to slim down boat
16:11:06 <Wareya> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat
16:11:08 <Wareya> this boat
16:11:17 <Libster> throw your passengers overboard
16:11:33 <Wareya> while maintainging the retarded way of dealing with memory, 2Dness, and expression nesting
16:13:25 <Wareya> I guess I could limit myself to if tests and increment/decrementation
16:13:56 <Libster> use linux it will make your code faster
16:14:03 <Wareya> that's a no brainer
16:15:58 <oklopol> this is not about speed, this is about ease of implementing it
16:16:02 <oklopol> so even more definitely linux, huh
16:16:13 <oklopol> linux has all the right stuff
16:16:36 <Wareya> but linux IS faster
16:16:39 <Libster> wait
16:16:42 <Libster> you were serious?
16:16:46 <Libster> i was just trolling
16:16:52 <Libster> man you guys are stupid
16:16:57 <Wareya> no shit you're trolling
16:17:02 <Wareya> but yes I'm serious
16:17:23 <alise> as opposed to what, windows? linux has a better task switcher iirc
16:17:28 <alise> and probably the syscalls are better
16:17:30 <Wareya> task switcher?
16:17:33 <Wareya> and yes
16:17:34 <alise> so, theoretically, you could say it's faster
16:17:44 <Libster> yes you could say that if you are stupid
16:17:44 <alise> Wareya: if you don't know what a task switcher is... ... i have nothing to say
16:17:59 <Wareya> ALT+TAB
16:18:00 <Wareya> HAHA
16:18:21 <alise> well fuck, Wareya's complete retardation has made him unable to stop feeding the trolls thus turning this channel into a shithole
16:18:22 <alise> thanks, Wareya
16:18:29 <Libster> yeah thanks
16:18:31 <Libster> i appreciate it
16:18:42 <Wareya> but these trolls are cool
16:18:56 <Libster> true
16:33:23 <Wareya> http://64.vg/src/cb37635de8f76f2b2587fbace50d0427/raw
16:33:47 <Wareya> or: http://64.vg/uoa
16:39:03 <Wareya> See, now the channel's dead.
16:39:57 <alise> good
16:40:28 <Wareya> At least the trolling finally ended.
16:41:43 <Libster> hi
16:41:48 <alise> Wareya: you fucking moron
16:41:53 <Wareya> just shut up
16:42:02 <base3> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
16:42:02 <base3> (_) __| (_) ___ | |_ (_) __| (_) ___ | |_
16:42:02 <base3> | |/ _` | |/ _ \| __| | |/ _` | |/ _ \| __|
16:42:02 <base3> | | (_| | | (_) | |_ | | (_| | | (_) | |_
16:42:02 <base3> |_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__| |_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__|
16:42:09 <Libster> l@l
16:43:56 <pikhq> 馬鹿ね。……
16:44:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net.
16:44:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com.
16:44:26 <oklopol> :o
16:44:32 <fizzie> Funny, ChanServ automagically goes hostmasky when you give it a nickname.
16:44:46 <alise> \o/
16:44:58 <oklopol> hey they weren't so bad
16:45:06 <alise> i feel kind of awkward with them still sitting, brooding, silent
16:45:09 <oklopol> although i guess it's nice to aknowledge someone's trolling
16:45:13 <alise> like what if they stay here for years and someone unbans them by mistake
16:45:18 <alise> and a million lines come through in 0 seconds
16:45:18 <oklopol> *ack
16:45:24 <alise> that's scary
16:45:35 <fizzie> I was mostly going by the 16 consecutive lines of "SPAM".
16:45:39 <alise> I'd start chanting "kick them" but there isn't enough of an angry mob
16:45:42 <oklopol> hehe
16:45:47 <Wareya> anyway
16:45:50 <Wareya> esoteric languages
16:45:51 <alise> oh what the hell. KICK THEM! KICK THEM! :|
16:45:51 <Wareya> they're cool
16:45:53 <oklopol> but i do o
16:45:54 <oklopol> o
16:45:54 <oklopol> o
16:45:54 <oklopol> o
16:45:54 <oklopol> o
16:45:54 <Wareya> I don't know much abotu them
16:45:58 <Wareya> educate me
16:46:00 <oklopol> and i never get banned
16:46:01 <alise> oklopol: you're allowed, because you're cool
16:46:03 <oklopol> ah!
16:46:11 <alise> and say awesome stuff in the non-oing interims
16:46:20 <alise> plus you don't copy-paste "SPAM" you handcraft every o
16:46:22 <alise> every single o
16:46:24 <oklopol> well that's even truer i guess
16:46:25 <Wareya> anyway
16:46:29 <Wareya> esoteric languages are cool
16:46:32 <Wareya> and I don't know much abotu them
16:46:34 <Wareya> educate me
16:46:50 <Wareya> did I seriously make the same typo twice?
16:46:54 <Wareya> That's pathetic
16:47:20 <alise> i'd tell you about good ones but they're all functional
16:47:41 <Wareya> but I don't know much about functional languages either
16:47:42 -!- Libster has left (?).
16:47:48 <fizzie> (I assume Freenode's guidelines mean I should have been more of a "catalyst" somehow there, but I suck at chemistry.)
16:48:53 <pikhq> Wareya: Functional programming is simple, but unlike what you're used to.
16:49:02 <alise> one's gone
16:49:06 <alise> but base3 is holding the fort
16:49:08 <alise> storing energy
16:49:09 <alise> like a pokemon
16:49:11 <Wareya> I understand the basic concept
16:49:16 <pikhq> Functional programming deals with true functions. That is, they map from input values to an output value.
16:49:19 <pikhq> And that's it.
16:49:23 <Wareya> yes
16:49:35 <alise> fizzie: I think blatant intentional spam and trolling is meant to be dealt with BLOOD
16:49:41 <Wareya> but it's at the level of the actual language that I really hate dealing with
16:49:57 <Wareya> especially purely fucntional ones
16:50:01 <pikhq> That's because you're not used to dealing with the abstractions is all.
16:50:17 <Wareya> Of course.
16:50:35 <fizzie> alise: Yes, but that'd be *increasing the channel temperature*! And I don't want to get all sweaty here.
16:50:37 <pikhq> Learn you some Haskell.
16:50:43 <pikhq> (delicious, delicious Haskell)
16:50:50 <alise> he said he started then gave up
16:50:57 <pikhq> alise: Lame.
16:51:02 <alise> indeed
16:51:52 <Wareya> I used it for five ffreaking weeks
16:51:52 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
16:51:55 <Wareya> -f
16:52:00 <Wareya> I just couldn't get anything done with it
16:52:00 <Wareya> lol
16:52:06 <pikhq> Wareya: Weak.
16:52:21 <Wareya> awesome story
16:52:31 <pikhq> Keep on doing it.
16:53:08 <alise> Wareya: You did not learn Haskell.
16:53:10 <Wareya> should I do address[size]
16:53:12 <alise> You learned Haskell's syntax, yes.
16:53:14 <Wareya> or size[address]
16:53:19 <alise> You learned how it relates to imperative languages.
16:53:26 <Wareya> actually
16:53:28 <pikhq> Given that you don't seem to grok lambda, doesn't seem like you learned much.
16:53:28 <alise> But you never made the transition from programming in an imperative language then converting it to Haskell,
16:53:30 <Wareya> all I learned was the syntax
16:53:33 <alise> to someone who programs and thinks directly in Haskell.
16:53:40 <alise> Wareya: then how did you compile a thing?
16:53:46 <alise> You had to have some understanding of the semantics, however wrong and weak.
16:53:47 <Wareya> I didn't :D
16:53:59 <pikhq> The syntax was pretty easy...
16:54:02 <alise> then you were foolish to program in a language
16:54:20 <Wareya> yes
16:54:22 <Wareya> yes I was
16:54:43 <pikhq> Any language.
16:54:49 <pikhq> :P
16:54:53 <Wareya> lolp
16:55:29 <Wareya> anyway
16:55:45 <Wareya> with boat, should I do address[size] or size[address]?
16:56:02 <Wareya> either one causes problems - either with casting or with arrays
16:56:21 <oklopol> what do those mean?
16:56:29 <Wareya> addressing of memory
16:56:30 <pikhq> Clearly [] should be commutative.
16:56:58 <alise> Wareya: make it swap when going left or right
16:57:02 <alise> so you always write it one way in the source
16:57:03 <alise> :D
16:57:17 <Wareya> there are four directions
16:57:21 <alise> ie foo[bar] or ]bar[foo
16:57:28 <alise> then it's always foo[bar] in the source if you go at it left or right
16:57:36 <Wareya> thank you for doing ]bar[ by the way
16:57:41 <oklopol> alise: here, it's just you'd need to know how these lambdas are actually used http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p214535314.txt
16:57:51 <oklopol> #i are just argument numbers
16:58:02 <oklopol> that's "ski apply"
16:58:15 <alise> oklopol: that isn't a nested structure :<
16:58:26 <Wareya> in C, (char)*address would be address[16] with address[size]
16:58:30 <Wareya> on a big endianmachine
16:58:33 <Wareya> +space
16:58:39 <oklopol> alise: what?
16:58:41 <Wareya> that's how the boat thing goes
16:58:44 <alise> Wareya: or size[address]
16:58:46 <alise> x[y] = *(x+y)
16:58:50 <alise> x+y = y+x
16:58:50 <Wareya> size address would be
16:58:53 <Wareya> 16[address]
16:58:55 <Wareya> of course
16:58:59 <alise> ∴ y[x] = x[y]
16:59:09 <Wareya> wait, what?
16:59:20 <alise> poor kiddy doesn't know C
16:59:22 <alise> Wareya: ok, in C
16:59:23 <alise> x[y] is sugar for
16:59:25 <alise> *(x + y)
16:59:27 <alise> we know that
16:59:29 <alise> x + y = y + x
16:59:29 <alise> right?
16:59:32 <alise> therefore
16:59:35 <Wareya> oh I didn't know it was C
16:59:36 <alise> *(x + y) = *(y + x)
16:59:37 <Wareya> lol
16:59:41 <alise> since x[y] is *(x + y)
16:59:42 <oklopol> alise: what do you mean it's not a nested structure?
16:59:44 <alise> y[x] = x[y]
16:59:46 <alise> therefore
16:59:52 <alise> 1["abc"] = 'b'
17:00:00 <alise> oklopol: well it looks like it's printing parts of the ast separately
17:00:02 <alise> maybe i'm wrong
17:00:10 <Wareya> I have never used strings like that but OKAY
17:01:31 <oklopol> alise: there's no one ast, running the result isn't just calling one functino
17:01:32 <oklopol> *function
17:01:34 <oklopol> well it is
17:01:43 <alise> well true
17:01:50 <oklopol> but the logic isn't in the core language
17:01:52 <alise> so, that code looks remarkably compact
17:01:55 <alise> where's the actual application
17:02:02 <alise> this is ski right
17:02:07 <oklopol> well i can explain what it actually does
17:02:12 <oklopol> that's just the ski apply function
17:02:21 <alise> so it's compacted everything into one?
17:02:28 <alise> or is it just referencing out
17:02:35 <alise> anyway, this could be transformed into haskell really easily
17:02:39 <alise> apart from the untypedness
17:02:48 <alise> have a feeling compiled clue code could be very fast
17:02:53 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116522211.txt <<< slightly clearer, although not much
17:03:08 <alise> oklopol: you should make an ffi there instead of trying to formulate a function, it tries to find one based on the guesses :D
17:03:10 <oklopol> it does condition, and chooses branch based on the result
17:03:19 <alise> have some sort of representation of io, so you can say like
17:03:28 <alise> "foo" -> output "foo\n"
17:03:29 <oklopol> Base branch (i) means if the cond result is i, run this base branch
17:03:34 <alise> that would be fun
17:03:45 <oklopol> Subast(0,0):['car', ['cdr', '#0']]
17:03:45 <oklopol> Main ast: '#1'
17:03:47 <alise> oklopol: ah i see
17:04:07 <oklopol> subast(i,j) means find for subcall i the argument number j
17:04:28 <alise> a
17:04:38 <alise> oklopol: can it infer ackermann
17:04:47 <oklopol> and yeah it could be transformed into something haskellish sure.
17:04:52 <oklopol> and obviously it can infer ackermann
17:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:05:08 <alise> hmm it's obviously tc but i wonder if you can infer any tc function directly ie without interpreting :)
17:05:11 <oklopol> if you can do it functionally, you can do it cluely, it just might be a big pain in the ass
17:05:21 <oklopol> although i find simple functions nicer to write in this than functionally
17:05:54 <Wareya> (e(e))you can nest expressions - 2D flow and tests and execution included for major FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
17:06:04 <oklopol> yeah i don't know how much you can do "directly", not that that's a very precise thing to ask
17:06:05 <Wareya> q[n]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at address q with n bits in size
17:06:06 <Wareya> q[n]WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at address n with q bits in size - when going left it'd look like ]n[q for note.
17:06:23 <oklopol> all sufficiently complicated list interpreter blah blah and so on
17:06:27 <oklopol> *lisp
17:06:52 <oklopol> (read that as a set of words that you can fit in a sentence as homework)
17:07:49 <Wareya> I'll make it so that it's little endian if you're going left or up!
17:07:52 <alise> oklopol: wait even if you infer ski
17:07:56 <alise> you have to infer a function that calls it
17:08:02 <oklopol> huh?
17:08:04 <alise> so even if you have ski, you may not be able to cause it to be called in an arbitrary way
17:08:06 <alise> oklopol: well wait
17:08:09 <alise> how do you 'run' a clue program
17:08:14 <oklopol> i haven't decided ! :D
17:08:14 <alise> do you define a main function and punch values into it on the cli?
17:08:18 <oklopol> yeah prolly
17:08:22 <oklopol> something like that
17:08:27 <alise> but if you had to make one inferred function
17:08:28 <alise> say main
17:08:38 <alise> where basically
17:08:40 <oklopol> that's always called with like 0
17:08:43 <alise> the result value was what is output
17:08:47 <alise> yeah
17:08:48 <alise> then
17:08:53 <alise> oklopol: no
17:08:57 <alise> that's always called with the user input
17:08:59 <alise> as a list of chars (ints)
17:09:07 <alise> you'd have to find a way to parse and call ski arbitrarily from that
17:09:14 <alise> i.e. you may not be able to infer arbitrary calls to ski
17:09:22 <alise> so even if you have an ski impl, if you go by my route it may not be tc!
17:09:26 <oklopol> well then you'd have to parse, and parsing is inherently quite mutual in its recursion
17:09:34 <oklopol> at least the way i usually do it
17:09:39 <alise> yes but I mean
17:09:51 <alise> clue may not be able to infer the actual call to eval ski(x)
17:11:00 <oklopol> what? just say "if main gets [1, 2, 3] as input, it should parse that input and call ski with it"
17:11:30 <oklopol> that's depth 2 inference, and will happen in less than a second
17:11:31 <oklopol> maybe i'm misunderstanding something
17:11:33 <oklopol> now let me understand the ski apply function
17:12:50 <alise> ok then
17:17:17 <Wareya> how should I deal with input?
17:18:12 <alise> have there be a certain location in space where characters, as they are inputted, appear; each cycle, they go down one position
17:18:14 <alise> it's a fountain of input
17:18:22 <alise> do not argue with me, this is an excellent idea
17:18:27 <alise> going down until you reach a character works as ungetc
17:18:34 <Wareya> what about multiple inputs?
17:19:09 <Wareya> well, I COULD send press and release statements
17:19:25 <Wareya> yeah that works
17:20:15 <alise> ha you actually like that idea?
17:20:18 <alise> i was half joking but i like it too
17:20:25 <Wareya> I don't really like it
17:20:46 <Wareya> because I can't find a way to deal with the whole "new memory area" concept :P
17:20:52 <alise> just an area of main memory
17:21:00 <Wareya> that could ruin stuff, though
17:21:07 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt
17:21:07 <oklopol> there's some ugly pseudohaskell for ya
17:21:45 <Wareya> I barely understand
17:21:54 <oklopol> ski type also does a major part of this
17:22:32 <oklopol> the types are 0 = do nothing, 1 = apply i, 2 = apply k, 3 = apply s, 4 = at least depth 4, first recurse on the first element of list, then retry evaluating this
17:22:44 <Wareya> I'll just let the program TEST for input of a certain character
17:22:50 <Wareya> but how do I do that withotu a function?
17:22:52 <oklopol> that was hell to infer btw :P
17:23:04 <Wareya> because I don't want to fuck with things like that with a 2D language
17:23:10 <oklopol> and i think it's more insight to clue than that code there is
17:23:22 <Wareya> I'm talking abotu boat
17:23:23 <oklopol> but i think it's sort of neat
17:23:26 <oklopol> couldn't have written the program better myself, really
17:23:51 <oklopol> Wareya: sorry i'm so excited about my own thing i mostly ignore boat and logread it every few minutes :|
17:24:01 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:24:10 <oklopol> i mean my life finally has meaning
17:24:15 <oklopol> clue is the shit
17:24:19 <alise> oklopol: you should make it do de bruijn indexes
17:24:32 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean
17:24:39 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
17:24:39 <alise> k is \\2, s is \\\2 0 (1 0)
17:24:44 <Wareya> lol
17:25:01 <alise> i.e. currying, lambdas have no variable names, var 0 = closest lambda's arg
17:25:04 <alise> var 1 = second-closest
17:25:04 <alise> etc
17:25:15 <alise> you don't have to do alpha-conversion because it's a nop
17:25:19 <alise> and you can just use a stack to implement it
17:25:25 <oklopol> i'm basically doing exactly that
17:25:28 <alise> and syntactic equality = structural equality
17:25:31 <alise> oklopol: nah because you have
17:25:34 <alise> (\#0 #1 -> #0) as K
17:25:44 <alise> instead of (\\#1)
17:25:50 <alise> the names of vars change as you nest deeper
17:25:57 <alise> so you can just use a stack
17:25:57 <oklopol> well yeah i'm not doing that in the haskell representation i did manually
17:25:59 <Wareya> anser when you're not tied up etc, but: What syntax do I use for checking if a character is being pressed
17:26:04 <alise> oklopol: right
17:26:09 <Wareya> answer*
17:26:11 <alise> Wareya: don't, use the fountain
17:26:17 <Wareya> but the fountain is broken
17:26:24 <oklopol> the actual "ast" field of the branch representing k is "#0"
17:26:43 <Wareya> it's like playing solitare where you can't skip cards
17:27:06 <oklopol> the haskell thing is just in case you want to see how the crappy "ast" currently spouted by the compiler maps to meaning
17:27:44 <alise> oklopol: ooh I know
17:28:13 <alise> oklopol: compile it to http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/epic.php; basically, it's the strict untyped-apart-from-some-conveniences-like-ints lambda calculus (with optional laziness)
17:28:21 <alise> the special thing is that the compiler tries really hard to produce really fast code
17:28:27 <alise> so you can say
17:28:40 <alise> Clue: So it takes 9 seconds to compile S I I (S I I), but it executes in 8.
17:28:55 <oklopol> i just realized it'd be incredibly trivial to change it to output that
17:29:11 <alise> define that
17:29:14 <alise> epic or haskelly
17:29:19 <oklopol> i mean so trivial it's basically just changing some of the constant strings
17:30:28 <oklopol> so how would "(\#0 #1 #2 -> pair #1 #2) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2" look like?
17:30:48 <oklopol> i was thinking just like (pair #1 #2) @ #0 sub3res1 sub3res2
17:30:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:31:10 <oklopol> otherwise pretty much exactly the syntax i have now
17:31:13 <alise> you mean in epic?
17:31:20 <alise> is (\ a b -> c) curried in yours?
17:31:22 <alise> or does it not matter?
17:32:03 <oklopol> SII doesn't execute in 8 seconds
17:32:03 <oklopol> *SII(SII)
17:32:08 <alise> it was a joke
17:32:18 <alise> but you still haven't said whether you're talking about epic or something else
17:33:26 <Wareya> http://64.vg/uot
17:33:37 <alise> oklopol: ???
17:33:59 <Wareya> minimized Boat
17:34:07 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
17:34:23 <Wareya> hi
17:34:30 <oklopol> not really, i don't know what that would change
17:34:47 <alise> oklopol: well epic can actually compile things to efficient C code as opposed to your pseudocode which can't :P
17:34:57 <oklopol> there are no higher-order functions
17:35:03 <alise> right
17:35:06 <alise> with epic you don't even have lambda
17:35:10 <alise> because it's a supercombinator compiler
17:35:58 <alise> oklopol: i'm getting the feeling you're ignoring me
17:36:11 <Wareya> what about me
17:36:12 <oklopol> why can't it?
17:36:15 <Wareya> j/k
17:36:21 <alise> oklopol: why can't epic have lambdas?
17:36:33 <alise> because it's meant as a target language, so you're meant to have lambda-lifted already. however clue does not require lambdas
17:36:35 <alise> i don't think
17:37:12 <alise> hmm the only values in clue are lists and ints aren't they
17:37:34 <oklopol> what are supercombinators
17:37:55 <alise> lambda expressions with no free variables containing no lambdas
17:38:04 <alise> i.e. flat lambdas
17:38:38 <oklopol> probably compiling to epic would be nicer than compiling to C, but i could just not to either.
17:39:17 <alise> well it saves you writing an evaluator
17:39:23 <alise> and http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt is literally a stone's throw away from epic
17:40:13 <alise> sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0
17:40:14 <alise> wut
17:40:18 <alise> does that make sense?
17:40:19 <alise> what's cdr's car
17:42:17 <Wareya> so about that simplified boat
17:42:26 <Wareya> er minimalized
17:42:55 <alise> 3 => (\#0, #1, #2, #3 -> #3) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2 sub3res3
17:42:58 <Ilari> I think I have figured out how one one could compute discrete coordinates in presence of wormholes....
17:43:00 <alise> this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right?
17:43:04 <alise> and ignores the rest
17:44:23 <pikhq> Hmm. Y'know, I think most of the evaluation time in my SKI evaluator is the garbage collection.
17:45:00 <oklopol> okay my lag is too big for ircing
17:45:30 <Ilari> oklopol: How close connection is to being unstable?
17:45:55 <oklopol> yes
17:46:00 -!- base3 has left (?).
17:46:21 <oklopol> and i meant clue doesn't have any higher-order stuff
17:46:33 <alise> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt here's what I think your program would look like in Epic
17:47:23 <alise> *case ski_type(_0)
17:48:22 <alise> clue needs tail call optimisation right?
17:48:26 <alise> or at least tail recursion
17:48:30 <oklopol> is that a real term?
17:48:35 <alise> a real term?
17:48:41 <oklopol> in any case that's what i have
17:48:46 <alise> ?
17:48:52 <Wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion ?
17:48:57 <alise> he knows what tail recursion is
17:49:00 <alise> oklopol: what real term?
17:49:19 <Wareya> aiight
17:49:28 <Wareya> tail call optimization?
17:50:09 <oklopol> there are subcomputations that are called with the main computation's arguments and each others outputs, so they are sorta lambdas, but the structure is always the same, so they aren't very real
17:50:09 <oklopol> alise: is flat lambda a real term
17:50:09 <oklopol> sorry, 400 seconds lag
17:50:14 <pikhq> Wareya: This is actually easy to explain in C.
17:50:23 <alise> oklopol: no they're really called supercombinators
17:50:28 <pikhq> void foo(){printf("Foo!\n");foo();}
17:50:31 <alise> oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time
17:50:43 <pikhq> Because foo() is the last thing called, the function does not need to be returned to.
17:50:55 <pikhq> So, the compiler can not keep around the stack frame.
17:51:02 <pikhq> Instead of "call foo", it can just do "jmp foo".
17:51:07 <Wareya> oh
17:51:11 <Wareya> no shit
17:51:30 <pikhq> So, tail recursive functions are easily compiled into loops.
17:52:14 <oklopol> "alise: sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0" <<< sorry car (cdr #0)
17:52:15 <oklopol> "alise: this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right?" <<< yes
17:52:24 <MissPiggy> tail calls can be compiled into jumps
17:52:26 <alise> oklopol: right I fixed that. http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt just to repeat
17:52:28 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt
17:52:28 <MissPiggy> even more general than
17:52:28 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt
17:52:31 <alise> so you don't
17:52:31 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt
17:52:32 <alise> miss it
17:52:32 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt
17:52:35 <alise> on the next flood you get
17:53:14 <oklopol> and the only values are, at least now, ints and lists.
17:53:45 <alise> http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
17:53:45 <alise> http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
17:53:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
17:53:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
17:53:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
17:53:47 <alise> C version
17:53:50 <pikhq> MissPiggy: Yes, but tail calls that aren't tail recursion are less common.
17:53:59 <alise> pikhq: I disagree
17:54:02 <MissPiggy> okay
17:54:02 <alise> I rarely recurse
17:54:03 <pikhq> (though continuation-passing style does it all the bloody time)
17:54:19 <alise> tail recurse that is
17:54:19 <oklopol> "alise: clue needs tail call optimisation right?" <<< yes, although i'm fine with not having it for now.
17:54:24 <pikhq> alise: Explicitly.
17:54:26 <alise> most of my tail calls are non-recursion
17:54:32 <pikhq> Anyways.
17:54:39 <alise> well i think epic almost certainly does TCO
17:54:42 <pikhq> Still pretty darned common.
17:54:45 <alise> and http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog will do tco if you put it through gcc :P
17:54:50 <alise> -O3 will probably unroll all the functions there
17:55:20 <pikhq> Yeah, GCC does TCO rather nicely.
17:55:53 <oklopol> "alise: oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time" <<< i got it with about a 5 minute lag.
17:56:03 <alise> well the lag is less now
17:56:13 <pikhq> (though things like "longjmp" break it)
17:56:43 <alise> Putting my C version through gcc will probably result in http://pastie.org/824550.txt?key=kwk16wfca7b8zitdyh59ew
17:56:46 <alise> if you give it -O3
17:56:51 <alise> which will also tail-call optimise it
17:57:00 <alise> thus making it pretty much as efficient a compilation as possible
17:57:03 <alise> *Fski_type(_0)
18:01:36 <Wareya> so about minimizing boat
18:05:32 * alise wonders how much a super-optimising compiler should evaluate code
18:05:35 <alise> up to IO: no, nontermination
18:05:46 <alise> only what it can prove total: large mathematical program would take years
18:05:57 <alise> we need something just below
18:05:59 <Wareya> hahaha
18:06:00 <alise> i.e. everything trivially total
18:06:14 <alise> like some way of measuring how "complicated" something is to eval
18:06:23 <alise> everything it can prove total whose complicatedness is below a certain threshold
18:07:06 <Wareya> Up to an inability to deduce a smaller way to do something
18:07:24 <Wareya> at which point it should assume brute-force status!
18:09:45 <oklopol> alise: is that actual epic code? could i just translate to exactly that? because that would indeed be trivial
18:10:02 <alise> oklopol: well there's no actual spec I just base dit on this: http://www-fp.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~eb/darcs/EpiVM/examples/testprog.e
18:10:13 <alise> I know it has actual ints btw so ignore the fact that that defines them itsellf
18:10:14 <alise> itself
18:10:16 <alise> (albeit using 0 and 1)
18:10:25 <alise> to do your lists just do Con head (Con head ())
18:10:29 <alise> and case on that
18:10:35 <alise> but yes, per my knowledge of epic, that should work
18:10:54 <alise> hmm
18:10:57 <alise> my types were wrong though
18:11:00 <alise> Data isn't correct
18:11:02 <alise> I think it should be Any
18:11:08 <alise> for it may be data and it may be an int
18:11:12 <alise> so yes, s/Data/Any/g in my program
18:11:28 <alise> but according to my understanding of epic, yes, that should work.
18:11:57 <alise> if you want http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog with gcc -O3 should compile to something competent as well
18:12:03 <alise> basically identical code
18:12:07 <alise> epic probably does more lambday optimisations though
18:12:13 <MissPiggy> http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/VIDEOS/fire_control_computer_1.html
18:12:17 <MissPiggy> this is sooooooooooooooo sexy
18:13:49 <alise> MissPiggy: in the language in http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf you never have to prove totality right?
18:13:52 <alise> the compiler can do it in all cases
18:14:06 <oklopol> alise: also i forgot one tiny thing: you have to actually recurse on the subcases :D
18:14:23 <alise> oklopol: well, you didn't do that, so there :)
18:14:28 <alise> oklopol: btw why do you have all those useless functions?
18:14:33 <alise> couldn't you just inline them all?
18:14:44 <alise> it's an absolutely trivial transformation, after all
18:14:50 <oklopol> what useless functions?
18:14:54 <Gregor> MissPiggy: I saw that URL and just assumed it was Eugene Lee's Lover :P
18:14:58 <alise> oklopol: all the _ski stuff
18:15:10 <alise> Gregor: ditto
18:15:14 <alise> oklopol: (in mine)
18:15:16 <alise> oklopol: in the where clause
18:15:18 <alise> you can inline every single one
18:16:44 <oklopol> sure you can, but that would've been much less illustrative imo
18:18:05 -!- Libster has joined.
18:18:06 <alise> but faster
18:18:12 <alise> fizzie: Libster is still banned right?
18:18:16 <alise> maybe changed ident
18:18:26 <oklopol> "faster"?
18:18:26 <oklopol> what
18:18:32 <alise> oklopol: less function calls
18:18:32 <oklopol> faster to read? i don't think so
18:18:42 <Wareya> it was 74-102 last I checked
18:18:47 <alise> i'm saying when you have something like http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog
18:18:57 <alise> the _ski functions are useless
18:19:00 <Wareya> [+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net]
18:19:09 <Wareya> nope
18:19:11 <alise> just take the expr inside return X; and replace the call with it
18:19:59 <oklopol> there are no function calls, any decent thing would optimize them away; and i don't have _ski functions, i have lambdas to show what info each computation in the where clause needs
18:20:38 <oklopol> you could just drop the lambda, but you couldn't see what computations are based on what computations, as clearly
18:20:45 <oklopol> *lambdas
18:21:45 <alise> why do you need to show what info it needs? just curious
18:21:50 <alise> this is just compiler output after all
18:21:54 <oklopol> i wanted you to know :D
18:22:03 <alise> right well i'm talking about for when it actually compiles :P
18:22:28 <oklopol> well i'm not considering doing that right now, just compiling for human reading
18:22:32 -!- thermoplyae has joined.
18:22:38 <oklopol> but yeah
18:22:50 -!- thermoplyae has left (?).
18:22:54 <oklopol> i guess if i just changed it a bit so it's actually haskell, it'd be a nice compilation for computers too
18:22:54 <oklopol> thermoplyae :o
18:23:52 <alise> no because it won't type in haskell prolly
18:23:59 <alise> you can't express all ski exprs in haskell
18:24:46 <lament> hm
18:24:51 <lament> i don't see Libster in the ban list?
18:24:59 <Wareya> it was a +q
18:25:00 <Wareya> not a +b
18:25:01 <lament> does irssi not show the ban list correctly?
18:25:06 <Wareya> [+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net]
18:25:32 <lament> i thought those showed up in the ban list, just hade a % in front
18:25:35 <lament> *had
18:25:47 <Wareya> idk lol
18:25:52 <lament> oh well
18:26:03 <alise> +q is like the happy friendly form of +b
18:26:13 <alise> look but don't touch!
18:26:37 <Wareya> haha
18:26:55 <Pthing> that's neither happy nor friendly
18:27:30 <lament> it's better than genocide
18:28:42 <Wareya> So about that Boat minimalization while still being somewhat easy to use
18:28:49 <Wareya> :<
18:30:41 <alise> The interpreter segfaults when I compute something like fact 100000000.
18:30:41 <alise> That's because stack checks are not enabled by default.
18:30:41 <alise> ah
18:30:47 <Wareya> hahaha
18:31:14 -!- base3 has joined.
18:31:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:31:54 <alise> lol poor fools trying again
18:32:08 <alise> MissPiggy: are they actually that determined :)
18:32:11 <alise> or are their irc clients just rejoining
18:32:19 <Wareya> lol
18:34:55 -!- base3__ has joined.
18:35:18 <base3__> alise: firstly don't think i can't evade a ban if i want to
18:35:33 <alise> no shit
18:35:36 <base3__> secondly how can you be in this channel and not know what car of cdr is?
18:35:41 <alise> I know what car of cdr is
18:35:43 <alise> he wrote "car cdr x"
18:35:45 <alise> he meant "car (cdr x)"
18:35:51 <Wareya> haha
18:35:56 <alise> I didn't know whether that was some special semantics for Clue functions
18:35:57 <MissPiggy> alise you don't undestand CAR or CDR
18:36:00 <alise> or whether it was a mistake
18:36:03 <Wareya> your ISP only randomixes the least significant byte
18:36:05 <alise> he informed me it was the latter
18:36:10 <base3__> Wareya: flase
18:36:14 <base3__> false*
18:36:14 <MissPiggy> alise stop acting like you know lisp
18:36:19 <Wareya> oh?
18:37:23 -!- base3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:38:11 <Wareya> http://64.vg/uot What can I do to make there be less stuff here, without making asinine requirements for some simple things?
18:41:11 <fizzie> lament: +qs showed up in the ban list for freenode's old ircd, but they're different things in this new "seven".
18:42:03 <base3__> you can just do /mode +q to see the +qs
18:42:34 <Wareya> not lying
18:42:51 <Wareya> but on some ircds that would kill the channel
18:43:11 <alise> Wareya is having a hard time with this trolling thing
18:43:13 <base3__> Wareya: just do /quit #channel to kill a channel on this version
18:43:29 * alise sigh
18:43:41 <alise> fizzie: are we going to play cat and mouse or staring contest
18:43:44 <alise> gotta be one or the other
18:43:45 <base3__> or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you
18:43:54 <Wareya> base3, I'm not retarded
18:43:56 <Wareya> :)
18:44:06 <alise> either they evade and we re-ban, or we wait until they get bored
18:44:17 <alise> unfortunately, they're probably already bored if they think trolling us is productive.
18:44:19 <base3__> it comes to the same thing really
18:44:26 <Wareya> *!*@host81-141--*.wlms-broadband.com
18:44:27 <Gregor> It'd be nice if any of the regulars in this channel were ops.
18:44:30 <Wareya> *!*@host81-141-*-*.wlms-broadband.com
18:44:31 <alise> Gregor: fizzie is
18:44:35 <alise> and he banned them earlier, and is here right now
18:44:45 <alise> just ban @*.wlms-broadband.com
18:44:51 <Wareya> but that's assholish
18:44:54 <MissPiggy> 18:43 < base3__> or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you
18:44:56 <alise> and foolproof
18:44:58 <MissPiggy> guys I think he might be a hacker
18:44:58 <fizzie> Quited, not banned. Still.
18:45:00 <MissPiggy> so watch out
18:45:06 <Gregor> MissPiggy: Haw
18:45:08 <alise> unless he goes to a friend's house; if he does that, we can just laugh at him i guess
18:45:15 <fizzie> Quieted, I mean. Heh.
18:45:16 <base3__> listen i told you how to check the quiet list
18:45:17 <alise> fizzie: planned course of action?
18:45:22 <pikhq> Who runs the channel, as far as ChanServ's concerned?
18:45:27 <alise> pikhq: i think lament
18:45:28 <pikhq> Pretty sure the founder isn't around any more.
18:45:29 <base3__> that wasn't trolling it was genuinely being helpfu;
18:45:30 <alise> used to be aardappel
18:45:33 <Gregor> lament is second.
18:45:36 <pikhq> alise: Ah.
18:45:42 <alise> base3__: Seriously, what do you think we are, idiots?
18:45:44 <base3__> then Wareya starting talking nonsense so i played along with him
18:45:47 <alise> You're honestly going to have to troll far better than that.
18:45:54 <Wareya> Me?
18:46:01 <pikhq> Oh, right.
18:46:05 <MissPiggy> Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that
18:46:08 <pikhq> lament was set to inherit.
18:46:10 <base3__> alise: you really think that /mode +q with no args doesnt give you the list of quiets??
18:46:22 <alise> fizzie: plz just ban eir isp
18:46:23 <base3__> that is the gospel truth
18:46:25 <alise> or quieten it, whatever
18:46:30 <base3__> try it in another channel
18:46:31 <Wareya> troll?
18:46:32 <Wareya> you're fucking kidding me
18:46:32 <Wareya> he's completely serious, /mode +q shows the quiet list
18:46:32 <alise> we can add exceptions later if anyone else actually uses it...
18:46:44 <Wareya> 13:46 < MissPiggy> Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that
18:46:45 <MissPiggy> Wareya, this is no laughing matter
18:46:48 <Wareya> I'm sorry, what?
18:47:04 <alise> MissPiggy: i think you're taking this a little too seriously
18:47:12 <alise> you're letting the terr--trolls win
18:47:14 <base3__> i doubt i'm going to repeatedly come back in here to wind you guys up tbh
18:47:24 <base3__> you're not as entertaining as you seem to think you are
18:47:27 <alise> who's wound up, i'm just prodding fizzie to ban your isp
18:47:30 <Gregor> I think it's time for virtuchuck.
18:47:37 <pikhq> Definitely.
18:47:41 <alise> turns out we don't try and be entertaining when people are just going to shit on your conversations
18:47:42 <MissPiggy> I could use a protein shake
18:47:47 <alise> Gregor: ooh, make it trigger on every single line he says!
18:47:48 <fizzie> I don't really have a plan. Maybe he'll behave, though; things have been much more discussioney so far, even if the discussion is not an especially interesting one.
18:47:51 <Wareya> 13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7348 secs ago]
18:47:52 <pikhq> base3__: We entertain ourselves quite well. :)
18:47:54 <Wareya> 13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7352 secs ago]
18:47:54 -!- virtuchuck has joined.
18:47:54 <virtuchuck> If we don't do friendly ai right..
18:47:57 <Wareya> that's what /mode +q shows
18:48:00 <alise> virtuchuck: THEN WHAT?!
18:48:01 <virtuchuck> alise: Chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it.
18:48:04 <MissPiggy> what the fuck chuck is tlaking about friendly ai
18:48:09 <alise> MissPiggy: it listens to us
18:48:22 <MissPiggy> virtuchuck: what was that about friendly ai?
18:48:22 <virtuchuck> MissPiggy: What was that about friendly ai.
18:48:23 <pikhq> alise: Welcome to Markov chains.
18:48:31 <Gregor> virtuchuck: Compare Chuck Norris to base3__.
18:48:32 <virtuchuck> Gregor: 3 Laws or weaker system.
18:48:34 <pikhq> Erm.
18:48:36 <pikhq> MissPiggy:
18:48:36 <alise> :D
18:48:48 <alise> virtuchuck: You have to repeat what I said just now.
18:48:48 <virtuchuck> alise: There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it.
18:49:13 <fizzie> fungot: Is this chuck a friend of yours?
18:49:14 <fungot> fizzie: you mean an a-list?
18:49:32 <pikhq> Ah, the bots.
18:49:33 <Gregor> Hmmm
18:49:38 <pikhq> The wonderful, wonderful bots.
18:49:43 <Gregor> If fungot talks at the wrong time, they'll get into an infinite loop :P
18:49:44 <fungot> Gregor: well when i am around people, but inconsistency is part of the system that's used for work now, so need only decide when to do which
18:49:45 <MissPiggy> virtuchuck: AI
18:49:45 <virtuchuck> MissPiggy: If we don't do friendly ai right..
18:49:46 <alise> A-List bots :D
18:49:54 <pikhq> `c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n")
18:49:54 <Wareya> haha
18:49:57 <alise> virtuchuck: poop
18:49:58 <virtuchuck> alise: It's freaking technology improving itself.
18:49:59 <HackEgo> No output.
18:50:04 <MissPiggy> lololol
18:50:06 <alise> virtuchuck: Poop is self-improving technology?
18:50:07 <virtuchuck> alise: It's freaking technology improving itself.
18:50:09 <pikhq> ... No output.
18:50:14 <MissPiggy> virtuchuck has just learned about the singularity for the first time
18:50:16 <pikhq> :D
18:50:20 <fizzie> Gregor: Fungot has an anti-loop thing on the chat side, though.
18:50:23 <MissPiggy> now he's obsessing
18:50:28 <Gregor> fizzie: Good :P
18:50:31 <alise> he thinks it's faeces though
18:50:34 <Gregor> I think I preferred virtuLORD.
18:50:35 -!- virtuchuck has quit (Client Quit).
18:50:39 <pikhq> !c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n")
18:50:41 <alise> blend the two
18:50:46 <MissPiggy> Hey, I can talk too!
18:50:48 <alise> and the LORD said, inject your protein shakes
18:50:49 <EgoBot> Hey, I can talk too!
18:50:54 <alise> DO IT
18:50:54 <Wareya> Hey, I can talk too!
18:50:56 <pikhq> But HackEgo cannot.
18:51:11 -!- virtuLORD has joined.
18:51:11 <virtuLORD> Baltasar's profane banquet: his sentence is welcome to the law, or the hired man that is since lost.
18:51:13 <pikhq> Gregor: I just realised something.
18:51:21 <pikhq> Gregor: The old hobby of trying to break EgoBot has gone away.
18:51:31 <alise> Gregor: blend virtulord and virtuchuck now.
18:51:37 <pikhq> Quite a while ago.
18:51:38 <Gregor> alise: Okidoke, will do.
18:51:40 <alise> :D
18:51:46 <pikhq> You're better at IRC bots. :P
18:52:03 <fizzie> I had a bible-trained fungot speaker somewhere, but I don't think I put it in the bot.
18:52:04 <fungot> fizzie: look at all the oo is fnord. insist on using modern regexps even though they are not
18:52:11 <fizzie> ^style
18:52:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:52:16 <alise> modern regexps are indeed not regular expressions
18:52:23 <alise> and OO is indeed smoke and mirrors!!
18:52:30 <fizzie> Yes, none of those look very biblical to me.
18:52:43 <pikhq> ^style irc*
18:52:44 <fungot> Not found.
18:52:49 <pikhq> Curses.
18:53:08 <fizzie> The * is just the current-selection-marker there.
18:53:50 <pikhq> Ah.
18:54:10 <Wareya> ^style.^
18:54:13 <Wareya> derp
18:54:15 <Wareya> ^style irc.^
18:54:15 <fungot> Not found.
18:54:17 <Wareya> derp
18:54:19 <Wareya> ^style irc.*
18:54:19 <fungot> Not found.
18:54:20 <Wareya> I suclk
18:54:22 <Wareya> I suck
18:54:26 <Wareya> I SUCK
18:55:25 <fizzie> I sulk.
18:55:32 <Gregor> wtfbbq
18:55:38 <Gregor> Just nearly crashed my system trying to combine them :P
18:55:49 <Wareya> roflolticas
18:58:42 <Gregor> virtuLORD: Give us the good news!
18:58:42 <virtuLORD> Gregor: And he that received the news heli falleth backward and not to resist evil, etc. . .What is prophetically delivered here, and in the book out of the lord driveth on.
18:58:58 <Gregor> Amen.
19:04:16 <Wareya> q[n]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at bit address q with n bits in size - big endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 2 3 and 4
19:04:19 <Wareya> q[n]WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at bit address n with q bits in size - little endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 4 5 and 6 - note that when going left it would look like ]n[q
19:04:23 <Wareya> q[n][m]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR UP access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is lower
19:04:26 <Wareya> q[n][m]WHEN GOING LEFT OR DOWN access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is higher
19:04:29 <Wareya> :D
19:04:31 -!- Libster has left (?).
19:05:00 <Gregor> Not having looked at the language at all except for what you just pasted, reminds me slightly of 2L.
19:05:12 <Wareya> http://64.vg/src/48029a6eda8165c6d5a5b6f71a785f1e/raw
19:05:17 <Gregor> Namely, in that it has different actions depending on direction.
19:05:21 <Wareya> I'm trying to minimalize Boat
19:05:29 <Wareya> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat
19:05:30 <Wareya> this boat
19:09:19 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
19:09:54 <Quadrescence> hello is this a channel about esoteric programming languages like java
19:10:06 <Wareya> yes
19:10:39 <Gregor> Hyuk hyuk
19:10:53 <pikhq> Java doesn't seem all that esoteric.
19:11:04 <pikhq> Though it does have many an odd design feature, it is extremely well-known.
19:11:13 <Wareya> like perl
19:11:36 <Quadrescence> So is "how well known" a metric for being esoteric?
19:11:38 <pikhq> Wareya: Except Perl is entirely composed of odd design features.
19:11:44 <Wareya> yes
19:11:49 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Somewhat, yes.
19:11:58 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Esoteric implies both "odd" and "unknown".
19:12:13 <Gregor> Etymologically speaking, how well known and used it is should be the only metric, but it's not :P
19:12:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Heheh.
19:12:33 <Sgeo_> I think BF is somewhat well known'
19:12:43 <Quadrescence> Of course I will present a counter-example. Vala is not a very well known language, yet it is not esoteric. BCPL as well.
19:12:47 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yes, but well known *soley for being odd*.
19:13:03 <pikhq> Quadrescence: They're intended for serious use, and as such aren't all that odd.
19:13:35 <Quadrescence> So being well known or not doesn't qualify as a metric for being esoteric it seems.
19:13:38 <base3__> so 'esoteric' is an antonym of 'serious'?
19:14:06 <pikhq> base3__: To an extent.
19:14:18 <Wareya> mindrape
19:15:56 <Gregor> Mind rape?
19:16:01 <Wareya> mind rape
19:16:13 <Gregor> That was a yes-or-no question.
19:16:21 <Wareya> mind rape
19:16:59 <pikhq> Wareya: Still yes-or-no.
19:17:04 <Wareya> mind rape
19:17:17 <Wareya> I mean yes
19:17:56 * pikhq pushes the "mind rape" buttonb
19:18:12 <Quadrescence> Is this channel an antonym for serious?
19:18:28 <Wareya> mind rape
19:18:30 <Wareya> I mean yes
19:19:49 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Yes.
19:20:01 <pikhq> Well, we are capable of being serious.
19:20:07 <pikhq> However, that is not the raison d'etre.
19:20:15 <Wareya> (e/e)division
19:20:18 <Wareya> WHY DID I DO THAT
19:20:19 <Wareya> AFJ@#e-0fu@VQ@U()A
19:30:35 <Wareya> Okay, this is my last draft before bed
19:30:36 <Wareya> http://64.vg/src/fad448fab17d0b8f569a451741adbd07/raw
19:30:38 <Wareya> good night
19:31:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:35:17 <Wareya> That, or I can procrastinate sleep.
19:36:01 <oerjan> you only master procrastination properly when you can procrastinate breathing.
19:36:16 <Wareya> but
19:36:28 <oerjan> sure there are side effects
19:36:30 <Wareya> my new year's resolution
19:36:36 <Wareya> was to make one next year
19:36:58 <oerjan> well you can always put that off another year
19:36:58 <pikhq> Mine was to not make a resolution.
19:37:02 <pikhq> I always fail at it.
19:37:25 <Wareya> that's an okymoronic irony!
19:37:30 <Wareya> oxymoronic*
19:38:46 <oerjan> i hear that once you can procrastinate breathing, you very quickly will be able to procrastinate _anything_. in fact you'll be unable not to. except decomposing.
19:39:10 <Wareya> Fuck yeah.
19:41:20 <Wareya> I am procrastinating procrastinating working on this,
19:41:33 <Wareya> ...
19:42:39 <oerjan> to be able to procrastinate P and not P at the same time, that is the essence of zen. or perhaps anti-zen, i'm not sure.
19:42:51 <Wareya> Hah
19:43:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Zen is both zen and anti-zen.
19:43:26 <pikhq> That is the essence of zen.
19:43:34 <oerjan> ah yes
19:45:29 <Wareya> I don't think I can minimalize this anymore
19:49:36 <alise> minimalise a butt butt
19:51:05 <Wareya> but a butt butt is as low as a butt
19:51:57 <oerjan> are you saying butts are idempotent?
19:52:16 <Wareya> yes
19:52:49 <Wareya> what abotu the idiot bird
19:52:52 <Wareya> and the mocking bird
19:57:34 <MissPiggy> Wareya, if the forest has, for every particular birds A and B, another bird C who will reply A's reply to B's reply when you call to it i.e. Cx = A(Bx) -- and the forest has a mockingbird too -- can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond* of some other bird i.e. QF = F (F may depend on Q)
19:58:04 <MissPiggy> (Q is fond of F means QF = F)
19:58:15 <oerjan> what was a mockingbird again
19:58:23 <MissPiggy> Mx = xx
19:58:51 <oerjan> so M and composition
19:59:00 <oerjan> oh wait
19:59:04 -!- virtuLORD has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:59:16 <alise> MissPiggy: congrats you just made everything super complex :D
19:59:17 <oerjan> you're not saying there is a combinator for making C, just that C exists
19:59:37 <Wareya> If you convert that to C I'll be able to do it :D
19:59:42 <MissPiggy> oerjan yes
19:59:48 -!- virtuhird has joined.
19:59:49 <virtuhird> So ican do a blocking read it'll wait until the process id, modulo something.
19:59:52 <MissPiggy> Wareya, that means you are giving up?
20:00:01 <Wareya> I can only half understand what you're saying
20:00:05 <oerjan> _i_ haven't
20:00:13 <Sgeo_> There's still no Virtugeo :(
20:00:26 <Gregor> Yo dawg, I heard you like Hird, so I put a Hird in your herd so you can Hird while you heard!
20:00:27 <oerjan> of course i understand how fixpoints are usually constructed from M
20:00:30 <Wareya> probably because of the metaphor of birds
20:00:32 -!- Quadrescence has left (?).
20:00:51 <Gregor> I made virtuhird exclusively to say that line.
20:00:53 <oerjan> Wareya: just s/bird/combinator/g
20:01:05 <Wareya> not on linux
20:01:14 <Wareya> running IRSSI through SSH
20:01:14 <MissPiggy> Wareya, well this IS a difficult problem -- but the solution can be got in a methodical way
20:01:14 <MissPiggy> (infact there's two methodical ways to get the solution that I know of)
20:02:12 <Wareya> "can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond of some other bird"
20:02:15 <alise> virtuhird: <3
20:02:15 <virtuhird> alise: And it seems more common than (2*3)+4.
20:02:21 <Wareya> do not understand
20:02:24 <alise> virtuhird: Marry me.
20:02:24 <virtuhird> alise: Marry him a few ssh tricks you can give you into a file * can you?
20:02:33 <alise> virtuhird
20:02:33 <Wareya> virtuhurd: 0/0
20:02:36 <alise> virtuhird:
20:02:39 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:02:40 <virtuhird> alise: Solution: kill ancestors.
20:02:47 <Gregor> YES.
20:02:47 <Wareya> virtuhurd: <3 0/0
20:02:48 <alise> Gregor: how can i tell it "give me everything"
20:02:50 <oerjan> fix f = (\x -> f (x x)) (\x -> f (x x))
20:02:52 <alise> also, is it listening to me or us?
20:03:00 <Wareya> virtuhurd: Marry me.
20:03:00 <alise> if so, it's not just virtuhird :<
20:03:01 <Wareya> just you
20:03:06 <alise> no i mean for its db
20:03:08 <alise> also, did you include tusho and alise
20:03:10 <Wareya> oh idk
20:03:13 <alise> and ehird`
20:03:22 <Gregor> alise: tusho no, alise yes, ehird` no.
20:03:31 <Gregor> alise: However, I had to cut it short, so really alise no :P
20:03:36 <Gregor> The brain was getting too big.
20:03:49 <alise> sounds like me
20:03:51 <alise> now why is it dead
20:03:53 <alise> virtuhird: Poop
20:03:53 <virtuhird> alise: Poop ovulates over poop.
20:04:01 <alise> Gregor: how can I tell it "just give me anything"
20:04:01 <Gregor> Wow
20:04:06 <alise> yeah i actually said that :)
20:04:15 <Gregor> alise: I don't think hal.pl has such a feature :(
20:04:19 <Gregor> virtuhird:
20:04:22 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:22 <virtuhird> alise: So, memes get killed off extremely quickly and efficiently.
20:04:24 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:25 <virtuhird> alise: A tiny backtrace snippet from the base class.
20:04:27 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:27 <virtuhird> alise: Flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext lm 3dnowext 3dnow up ts fid vid ttp.
20:04:30 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:30 <virtuhird> alise: Lalalla sudo vi /etc/thttpd/thttpd.conf.
20:04:32 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:32 <virtuhird> alise: I was just being flippant.
20:04:34 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:34 <virtuhird> alise: Bloatzilla, then, i assume.
20:04:36 <alise> virtuhird: .
20:04:36 <virtuhird> alise: That makes no sense when i say '?' i mean 'something else.
20:04:39 <Gregor> Agg, stop
20:04:39 <alise> xD
20:04:42 <alise> no i love it
20:04:43 <alise> does /msg work
20:04:46 <Gregor> Yes
20:04:59 <Wareya> virtuhird: e
20:05:00 <virtuhird> Wareya: Eyoyanaka <- e, o and a space.
20:05:08 <Wareya> I said that? <_>
20:05:09 <Sgeo_> virtuhird, PSOX
20:05:10 <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Sgeo: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be the first okoperformancescript.
20:05:15 <alise> No, I did.
20:05:16 <Wareya> or did she
20:05:17 <Wareya> ah
20:05:24 <Wareya> virtuhird: .
20:05:24 <virtuhird> Wareya: P seems most logical explanation and i will talk mor ewhen you return.
20:05:28 <Sgeo_> virtuhird, PSOX
20:05:29 <Wareya> virtuhird: .
20:05:30 <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
20:05:32 <virtuhird> Wareya: Damn i want it to zy3jkanfka.
20:05:37 <alise> "and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename."
20:05:37 <alise> :D
20:05:39 <Wareya> virtuhird: rage
20:05:39 <virtuhird> Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge.
20:05:45 <Gregor> `addquote <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
20:05:46 <HackEgo> 130|<virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
20:05:59 <Sgeo_> lol
20:05:59 <Gregor> Sounds like ehird.
20:06:06 <alise> virtuhird: sex
20:06:06 <virtuhird> alise: Ais523: gay sex is not of the race because its names aren't all meaningless 2-character gibberish with \s and .s everywhere.
20:06:12 <Wareya> virtuhird: rage
20:06:13 <virtuhird> Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge.
20:06:20 <alise> virtuhird: fuck
20:06:20 <virtuhird> alise: Ha ha ha what the fuck, a 2 minute long guide on how to actually write anything useful.
20:06:24 <alise> virtuhird: fuck
20:06:24 <virtuhird> alise: And the paddles speed up most programs a lot - coderay sucks. What the fuck we want, make your parameters self-describing.
20:06:28 <Wareya> virtuhird: esoteric
20:06:28 <virtuhird> Wareya: Http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php or the variable's value?
20:06:36 <alise> virtuhird: fuck
20:06:36 <virtuhird> alise: Fuck you haskellers and your local copy?
20:06:39 <alise> virtuhird: fuck
20:06:40 <Wareya> virtuhird: audio
20:06:40 <virtuhird> alise: Anmaster: fuck off if i removed the bottom right.
20:06:41 <virtuhird> Wareya: Which e.g. Copying audio data from many folders: cd, operation, cd, operation.
20:06:44 <alise> virtuhird: fuck
20:06:45 <virtuhird> alise: + And | are... Whatever the fuck up.
20:06:47 <alise> haha this is perfect
20:06:48 <Gregor> I wish you could tell megahal "Forget a bunch of what you know" :P
20:06:49 <AnMaster> <virtuhird> Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge. <-- outdated url
20:06:49 <Wareya> virtuhird: qwerty
20:06:50 <virtuhird> Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity.
20:06:56 <alise> Gregor: no this is so amazing
20:07:01 <alise> AnMaster: >_<
20:07:05 <alise> Gregor: viruanmaster, now
20:07:06 <Wareya> 15:06 < virtuhird> Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity.
20:07:08 <alise> *virtuanmaster
20:07:09 <Wareya> GENIUS
20:07:11 <AnMaster> also, irritating highlight spam bot that (in practise)
20:07:14 <Gregor> alise: nono, so I could feasibly feed it the latest you.
20:07:17 <alise> ah
20:07:20 <alise> doesn't matter this is great
20:07:20 <Wareya> virtuhird: ,
20:07:21 <virtuhird> Wareya: Since there's no reason other than my old, crusty computer though ... That thing was broken an hour or so ago.
20:07:23 <alise> now make one for anmaster
20:07:33 <Wareya> virtuhird: complex
20:07:33 <Gregor> I'm building Sgeo_, since he kept complaining :P
20:07:33 <virtuhird> Wareya: Oh noes the joke by interpreting something as complex as hell.
20:07:41 <Wareya> eh.
20:07:41 <virtuhird> Wareya: It's just that my frog can't eh.
20:07:50 <Wareya> So
20:07:58 <Wareya> wait what
20:08:02 <Wareya> So
20:08:03 <Wareya> eh.
20:08:14 <Wareya> why did it respond to that
20:13:00 <alise> virtuhird: fuck you
20:13:00 <virtuhird> alise: They can be claimed and worked for me i don't wanna fuck with my eyes, i guess.
20:13:02 <alise> Gregor: :|?
20:13:04 <alise> ah
20:13:07 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:13:10 <alise> virtuhird: AnMaster
20:13:10 <virtuhird> alise: Don't worry, anmaster is talking about g.
20:13:13 <alise> virtuhird: AnMaster
20:13:13 <virtuhird> alise: Anmaster: can you translate what ihope is an agoran.
20:13:21 <alise> virtuhird: ontological
20:13:21 <virtuhird> alise: Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/esme.
20:13:25 <alise> :DDDDDDD
20:13:30 <alise> virtuhird: ontological
20:13:31 <virtuhird> alise: Anyway, generated asmmy!
20:14:08 <Sgeo_> virtuhird, Agora
20:14:08 <virtuhird> Sgeo_: Oerjan: agora office.
20:14:19 <alise> the office of oerjan
20:14:27 <alise> virtuhird: haskell
20:14:28 <virtuhird> alise: I haven't really used haskell much, but offset=0 and amount=-1 will copy all.
20:15:09 <AnMaster> what algorithm is that bot based on
20:15:17 <AnMaster> and which esolang is it coded in?
20:15:17 <Gregor> AnMaster: It's MegaHAL.
20:17:21 <Deewiant> virtuhird: You're really not needed here ya know
20:17:21 <virtuhird> Deewiant: Anmaster: i'm ignoring you because you're really not needed here ya know.
20:17:48 <alise> Gregor: it's picking up channel input
20:17:50 <alise> you are CORRUPTING me
20:18:05 <Gregor> alise: Toooooo bad :P
20:18:13 <alise> virtuhird: and to think I loved you.
20:18:14 <virtuhird> alise: I loved all of the administrators of the edit war about whether to link you.
20:19:09 -!- virtuhird has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:19:43 -!- virtugold has joined.
20:19:44 <virtugold> Unable to find the personality brain/megahal.trn
20:19:49 <Gregor> Uhhh, whoops :P
20:19:51 -!- virtugold has quit (Client Quit).
20:20:19 -!- virtugold has joined.
20:20:19 <virtugold> Oh wow couldn't that choke due to personal disagreements with semantic and practical issues, i decided to make it feasible.
20:20:38 <alise> why can't you have multiple guys
20:20:40 <alise> also who's gold
20:21:15 <Gregor> Gold knows who Gold is.
20:21:15 <Sgeo_> Might be me (if so, grr), might not. Evidence for not: I don't remember saying anything along those lines
20:21:34 <Gregor> Gold is as Gold does.
20:21:34 <Sgeo_> virtugold, PSOX
20:21:39 <alise> Gregor: if we don't know the identity of gold, why is eir virtual relative in here?
20:21:45 <Deewiant> virtugold: SUPOX
20:21:53 <Sgeo_> virtugold, ehird
20:22:00 <Sgeo_> virtugold, you alive?
20:22:04 <Gregor> Seems broken :P
20:22:06 -!- virtugold has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:22:10 <Gregor> lawl
20:22:32 <Sgeo_> Well, Gregor does know my last name
20:23:46 <alise> Seth Gold *does* ring a bell.
20:23:58 <alise> I know it's Seth something, and I think I saved it to a file, but that will have long gone missing and dusty.
20:24:10 <alise> Gregor: VirtuAnMaster.
20:24:12 <alise> Gregor: You must.
20:24:20 <Gregor> alise: AnMaster also talks too much :P
20:24:21 * Sgeo_ wants a non-broken me
20:24:22 <Gregor> alise: Like YOU.
20:24:30 <alise> Gregor: Just take a random 1/N of his lines
20:24:41 -!- SimonRC has joined.
20:24:48 <Sgeo_> alise, thanks for making me more cyberstalkable
20:24:57 <alise> Seth Gold.
20:25:00 <alise> Sgeo is Seth Gold.
20:25:02 <alise> Seth Gold is Sgeo.
20:25:03 <alise> Mwahahahahahaha
20:25:25 <alise> Seth Gold Americas Hottest DJ'
20:25:25 <alise> 30 Jan 2010 ... DJ Seth Gold debuts at Size Sundays in Los Angeles this weekend! Flyer & Info below: Brought to you by Elite Unlimited Underwear ...
20:25:29 <alise> I don't think you have anything to worry about
20:25:34 -!- virtunotsgeosurn has joined.
20:25:35 <virtunotsgeosurn> Any hypotheses on the basics to make a flash client for robozzle?
20:25:41 <alise> Gregor: ANMASTER DAMMIT
20:25:51 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurn, robozzle
20:26:10 <Gregor> wtfbbq
20:26:15 <Gregor> virtunotsgeosurn: Hewwo?
20:26:17 <Gregor> Oh
20:26:20 <Gregor> Because it thinks its name is
20:26:23 <Gregor> virtunotsgeosurname: Hewwo?
20:26:23 <virtunotsgeosurn> Gregor: Document.write(<b>"hello world!"</b.
20:26:26 <Gregor> :P
20:26:30 <alise> AN FUCKING MASTER
20:26:31 <virtunotsgeosurn> alise: Anmaster, @nick refers to the effect that it contained information about a master strategy gamer stuck in a feature to find out more information about a master strategy gamer stuck in a strongly-typed language can use a certain set of actions can be made more efficient?
20:26:42 <alise> A master that fucks.
20:26:57 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, Robozzle
20:26:57 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: Http://robozzle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7570 can have what's basically wine on iphone.
20:27:00 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, PSOX
20:27:01 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: Http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox.txt.
20:27:07 <Sgeo_> that was boring
20:27:10 <Deewiant> virtunotsgeosurname: SUPOX
20:27:10 <virtunotsgeosurn> Deewiant: 0X00 0x0a terminates all functions.
20:27:11 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, ehird
20:27:11 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: Ehird, i was only checking for my security question's answer. They email me asking for trivial opinions?
20:27:34 <Sgeo_> Am I really this boring? :(
20:27:38 <alise> Yes.
20:27:46 <Deewiant> virtunotsgeosurname: Boring!
20:27:46 <virtunotsgeosurn> Deewiant: It can ask for permissions before it is boring, tbh.
20:27:59 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, ?
20:27:59 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: "256 Functions will be ugly on os x. The forum's down though.
20:28:22 <Sgeo_> That's not me! I knew nothing about OS X!
20:28:25 <Sgeo_> [well, little]
20:29:50 <fizzie> Maybe I should train fungot styles for Prominent Personalities(TM) of the channel.
20:29:51 <fungot> fizzie: i've never seen before... i fnord on vacation
20:30:14 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, Second Life
20:30:15 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: But still, having @hodapp link to a universe in my life.
20:30:29 <fizzie> fungot: You what on vacation?
20:30:30 <fungot> fizzie: step 2: fnord... many thanks to all the memory...
20:30:59 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, active worlds
20:31:01 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: The worlds that i can't imagine sl staying alive with as few users as aw, or ct, or worlds.
20:32:00 <Sgeo_> Virtual me is boring :(
20:33:18 <fizzie> What a surprise! Uh, I mean...
20:33:22 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Hey, YOU asked for it :P
20:33:27 <Wareya> okay
20:34:02 <Sgeo_> Of all the things I thought I was considered in #esoteric , boring wasn't one that crossed my mind
20:34:09 <Sgeo_> And I'm still being boring, talking about this
20:34:17 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, entertain me
20:34:18 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: Gregorr, you can take pictures of.
20:34:23 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, God
20:34:23 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: There are definitions of "god" are a coherent idea.
20:34:48 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, alise
20:34:49 <virtunotsgeosurn> Sgeo_: Alise, they have classes there?
20:35:04 <Sgeo_> virtunotsgeosurname, fuck you
20:35:05 -!- virtunotsgeosurn has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:35:09 <Sgeo_> ..
20:35:16 <alise> XD
20:35:23 <Sgeo_> Was that in response to me, or did Gregor do that?
20:35:40 <Gregor> He just hates you.
20:35:48 -!- virtuwtf has joined.
20:35:49 <virtuwtf> Unable to find the personality brain/megahal.trn
20:35:53 <Gregor> Damn it.
20:35:53 <Sgeo_> Even virtual me hates me :(
20:35:54 -!- virtuwtf has quit (Client Quit).
20:36:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, virtuwtf?
20:36:14 -!- virtuwtf has joined.
20:36:15 <virtuwtf> That is not a bot! I confess! I am the helpful, friendly, underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?):ass hello! I am only pretending to be (very well.
20:36:22 <alise> AN MASTER PLEASE
20:36:32 <AnMaster> virtuwtf, hi there
20:36:33 <virtuwtf> AnMaster: Hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.......................
20:36:36 <AnMaster> ...
20:36:40 <AnMaster> virtuwtf, which one?
20:36:41 <virtuwtf> AnMaster: 1 Egobot: daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/365170.
20:36:52 <AnMaster> well that seemed almost relevant
20:37:11 <AnMaster> virtuwtf, who are you?
20:37:11 <virtuwtf> AnMaster: Score for gregorr-l_pooper_scooper: 34.2.
20:37:26 <AnMaster> egobot or hackbot I guess
20:37:31 <AnMaster> err
20:37:32 <AnMaster> hackego
20:37:35 <AnMaster> I meant
20:37:37 <Gregor> EgoBot :P
20:38:13 <MissPiggy> virtuwtf, wtf
20:38:13 <virtuwtf> MissPiggy: Http://google.com/search?q=omg+liek+wtf.
20:38:16 <MissPiggy> LOL
20:39:19 <oerjan> bbq
20:40:14 <Gregor> virtuwtf: oerjan
20:40:14 <virtuwtf> Gregor: 2 Oerjan: bf.
20:40:34 <Gregor> oerjan: I /believe/ virtuwtf is telling you he wants to be your boyfriend.
20:41:25 <oerjan> *blush*
20:42:03 <oerjan> oh wait you stinking liar, it's obviously speaking about brainfuck
20:42:05 -!- gm|lap has joined.
20:44:23 -!- virtuwtf has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:49:03 <AnMaster> Gregor: never got any replies to these:
20:49:05 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> what algorithm is that bot based on
20:49:05 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and which esolang is it coded in?
20:49:06 <Gregor> Sweet, I made a megahal brain that segfaults >_>
20:49:12 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yes you did
20:49:12 <AnMaster> ah that answers one
20:49:14 <AnMaster> megahal
20:49:16 <Gregor> AnMaster: It's MegaHAL.
20:49:21 <Gregor> That's the answer to both.
20:49:40 <AnMaster> Gregor, is megahal a programming language?
20:49:47 <AnMaster> as well as the bot
20:50:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:50:49 <Gregor> The bot is in Perl and C.
20:51:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, also which one was the segfaulting model?
20:51:22 -!- adam_d has joined.
20:51:26 <Gregor> You'll see (maybe) :P
20:51:36 <Gregor> (And it's not a person)
20:51:41 <alise> DO AN MASTER
20:52:22 <Gregor> alise: TOO - MUCH - DATA
20:52:33 -!- virtuPOSIX has joined.
20:52:33 <virtuPOSIX> Equivalent to the user explic.
20:52:48 <alise> Gregor: TAKE A RANDOM 1/N OF IT
20:53:14 <Gregor> alise: It takes like a half hour with the full data, so slowly working it down would take a long time :P
20:53:15 <fizzie> Increase N each time N is too big.
20:53:27 <Gregor> virtuPOSIX: Tell me about printf!
20:53:32 <fizzie> ^style wp
20:53:33 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
20:53:36 <AnMaster> virtuPOSIX, hm
20:53:41 <AnMaster> virtuPOSIX, fopen
20:53:46 <Gregor> Why isn't virtuPOSIX responding :(
20:53:54 <alise> Gregor: Take 1/4th then
20:53:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, did it segfault?
20:53:56 <alise> That's gotta be small enough
20:54:04 <Gregor> Fekk
20:54:06 <Gregor> Yeah, it segfaulted.
20:54:35 <AnMaster> Gregor, segfaulting is undefined behaviour. I spot ironicness here
20:55:09 -!- virtuPOSIX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:55:19 <alise> "ironicness" >_<
20:55:26 <pikhq> Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation?
20:55:27 <AnMaster> alise, I know it doesn't exist
20:55:51 <fizzie> fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up.
20:55:52 <fungot> fizzie: the claims are disputed or widely fnord, would be in order. fnord fnord
20:56:19 <fizzie> Don't you be disputin' my claims there.
20:56:49 <AnMaster> <fizzie> fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up. <-- please be careful with what you claim. Remember I coded the interpreter it runs on
20:56:51 <fungot> AnMaster: " as in the rest of the article is " here we stand" the fnord, but someone put that fnord was recommended for the niger mission by his cia wife, and not ' seton'. ' fnord'" is being used on this page.
20:57:01 <AnMaster> though hopefully it should never segfault
20:57:19 * Sgeo_ really has shovelling he sould attend to
20:57:53 <AnMaster> only way that could possibly result in that would be some badly tested out of memory code path or such. Maybe. Hopefully not.
21:08:47 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Increase N each time N is too big. <-- hehe
21:09:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, figured out why it segfaulted?
21:09:07 <Gregor> AnMaster: Nope
21:09:10 <Gregor> AnMaster: Not going to try, either.
21:09:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, gdb?
21:09:23 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yeah, I'm going to go debug some ancient code I didn't write.
21:10:14 <AnMaster> Gregor, well, it could be trivial. I would at least try it and take a look at the the line. Could be a trivial fix.
21:10:28 <Gregor> Nooooooooooooot gonna do it.
21:10:31 <Gregor> Noooooooooooooooooooooot gonna do it.
21:10:35 <AnMaster> okay then
21:10:56 <AnMaster> just saying that you can take a quick look at the backtrace without debugging it in depth
21:11:22 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation? <-- for what?
21:20:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
21:21:11 <AnMaster> night
21:27:27 <alise> Profile-aided optimisation... for DANCING
21:33:37 <alise> Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle).
21:34:04 <alise> Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful?
21:34:09 <alise> Pick one pair.
21:39:56 -!- augur_ has joined.
21:41:42 -!- virtuMaster has joined.
21:41:42 <virtuMaster> Ehirdiphone, he could just say "strange for hello world to use lyx some years ago.
21:42:06 <Gregor> virtuMaster: Are you a suitable replacement for AnMaster?
21:42:07 <virtuMaster> Gregor: For me it is run directly from the lamp in the same as in "not a possible replacement for anmaster?
21:42:15 <Gregor> I seeeeee.
21:43:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, I don't quite think I would say that
21:43:34 <AnMaster> night really, and stop highlight spam please
21:43:35 <Gregor> virtuMaster: Do you think you would say that?
21:43:36 <virtuMaster> Gregor: Like "i think i need to curl up the same connection. Might be an option to me then.
21:43:39 <AnMaster>
21:43:52 <alise> virtuMaster: ehird
21:43:52 <oklopol> AnMaster hates it when someone uses his nick
21:43:53 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, i was thinking more along the same rules are at 40 k/s from most places.
21:44:01 <alise> virtuMaster: ehird
21:44:03 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, it would depend on the stack at a time.
21:44:04 <oklopol> especially if you just say AnMaster for no reason
21:44:05 <alise> virtuMaster: ehird
21:44:06 <virtuMaster> alise: <Ehird> "i was born.
21:44:08 <alise> virtuMaster: ehird
21:44:09 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, no luck with cfunge?
21:44:13 <alise> virtuMaster: sigh
21:44:14 <virtuMaster> alise: Sigh whatever, can wait.
21:44:16 <alise> virtuMaster: sigh
21:44:17 <virtuMaster> alise: Must be a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- Even with metacity on intel graphics it works very well.
21:44:20 <alise> virtuMaster: sigh
21:44:20 <virtuMaster> alise: Sigh, not free it seems.
21:44:22 <alise> virtuMaster: sigh
21:44:22 <virtuMaster> alise: Sigh... Bbs, phone.
21:44:25 <alise> virtuMaster: -_-
21:44:25 <virtuMaster> alise: 21:57:27 <Ehird> coppro: umm... Bye?
21:44:27 <alise> virtuMaster: -_-
21:44:28 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird_, your solution fails at holiday logo?
21:44:33 <alise> aww it doesn't remember his emotes.
21:44:36 <alise> virtuMaster: night, really
21:44:37 <virtuMaster> alise: Deewiant, well it was *she* who had it, not me. Guess while i'm no expert on the last night of the world is utterly bonkers <-- the latter. We all know that.
21:44:49 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:44:49 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, they don't use it on an ipv6 block allocated, they don't know iki piki's gender. Not sure if you have that last example, i'm not immature!
21:44:52 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:44:53 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, i'm not immature!
21:44:58 <alise> :D
21:44:58 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:44:59 <virtuMaster> alise: Soupdragon, i'm not immature!
21:45:02 <alise> :DDD
21:45:04 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:04 <virtuMaster> alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature!
21:45:08 <alise> :DDDD
21:45:09 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:09 <virtuMaster> alise: Fungot, i'm not immature!
21:45:11 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:45:12 <alise> ahahahahahah
21:45:15 <alise> Gregor: what the fuck
21:45:16 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:17 <virtuMaster> alise: Though, i'm not immature!
21:45:19 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:19 <virtuMaster> alise: Though, i'm not immature!
21:45:21 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:21 <virtuMaster> alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature!
21:45:22 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:23 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, i'm not immature!
21:45:25 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:25 <virtuMaster> alise: Ehird, i'm not immature!
21:45:26 <alise> virtuMaster: immature
21:45:26 <oklopol> virtuMaster: sexy
21:45:27 <virtuMaster> alise: Ais523, i'm not immature!
21:45:29 <virtuMaster> oklopol: I guess it is spelled properly.
21:45:30 <alise> haha
21:45:31 <Deewiant> virtuMaster: mature
21:45:32 <Gregor> ...
21:45:32 <virtuMaster> Deewiant: Hm i want to spoil it.
21:45:40 <alise> Gregor: it's because "," -> "i'm not immature"
21:45:44 <alise> and he uses , as his nick prefix
21:45:47 <alise> er, suffix
21:45:48 <alise> I bet
21:46:03 <oklopol> yeah i guess it is
21:46:07 -!- virtuMaster has quit (Client Quit).
21:46:35 <alise> > nonfix foo;
21:46:35 <alise> > (quote foo) foo = false;
21:46:35 <alise> <stdin>, line 2: function 'quote' was previously defined with 1 args
21:46:37 <alise> pure hates Quine
21:46:52 -!- augur_ has joined.
21:48:37 * Sgeo_ wants to make an Uru Live age with a Brainfuck interpreter machine
21:56:04 <alise> Does anyone know of a standard algorithm to convert a natural number into an easy-to-pronounce, easy-to-memorise alphabetical form?
21:56:15 <alise> Obviously it is not too hard to write one, but if one already exists it probably has had more thought put into it.
21:59:37 <alise> Of course, the shorter the result the better.
22:02:39 <fizzie> alise: There's that format mooz wrote a Befunge converter for. It's alphabetical, easyish to pronounce; two out of three ain't bad.
22:03:01 <alise> I'm interested.
22:03:02 <alise> == "divzip-dibbel"
22:03:02 <alise> == "pobmol-dabmek"
22:03:02 <alise> == "nitvas-siztif"
22:03:20 <alise> So 32-bit stuff can be done relatively well with two words of six letters.
22:03:25 <alise> Bit of awkward pronunciation, but alright.
22:03:35 <fizzie> The generated numbers are on the long side, unfortunately.
22:04:34 <fizzie> 425616
22:04:35 <fizzie> WizzooBarRazzleHuzzooSpazzooFizzooSpoo
22:04:40 <fizzie> It has... a certain charm.
22:04:47 <fizzie> Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for.
22:04:52 <alise> Bit ... ecstatic for my tastes.
22:05:23 <alise> <alise> Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle).
22:05:23 <alise> <alise> Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful?
22:05:23 <alise> <alise> Pick one pair.
22:05:28 <alise> nobody wants to play :(
22:06:53 <Pthing> convert to base 26, intercalate vowels
22:07:25 <Pthing> or anything, really, you skip every other letter
22:08:02 <alise> base 26? that means you could get "beeep"
22:08:03 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:08:14 <alise> which isn't very distinguishable from "beep"
22:08:39 <alise> surely you mean base 21
22:08:46 <Pthing> why
22:08:50 <alise> anyway, I'm sure you can get more information density than that
22:09:15 <alise> Pthing: so you don't get both "beeeeep" and "beeep"
22:09:24 -!- augur_ has joined.
22:09:26 <Pthing> i don't see how that helps
22:09:38 <oklopol> "vaan" and "vaa'an" are different words in finnish
22:09:45 <alise> because you only pick the consonants
22:09:47 <alise> and intercalate vowels
22:09:49 <alise> so that can never happen
22:09:57 <alise> anyway, I think much higher information density than that is possible
22:10:09 <alise> at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits
22:10:11 <fizzie> The FooNumbers are based on decimal form, with the base words F/oo, B/ar, B/az, W/oo, H/oo, Sp/oo, K/ink, K/ank, K/onk for 1, 2, ... 9, respectively; and then you add "", "izz", "azz", "uzz" at the / there for 10^0, 10^1, 10^2, 10^3, respectively; and finally for multiples of 10000 you put in separator-markers Razzle, Dazzle, Giggle, Wiggle.
22:10:12 <alise> and omit awkward pairs
22:10:13 <fizzie> Admittedly the system runs out at 99999999999999999999, or KuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkWiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkGiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkDazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkRazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonk.
22:10:16 <oklopol> up to six it's pretty easy
22:10:19 <alise> fizzie: :D
22:10:20 <Pthing> but
22:10:28 <Pthing> so don't do beeep and beep
22:10:33 <Pthing> wait
22:10:36 <Pthing> how would that even
22:10:37 <Pthing> i mean
22:10:44 <alise> "beeeeep" and "beeep"
22:11:00 <alise> beeeeep = b, e, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e
22:11:03 <Pthing> boeop and baeaeap
22:11:04 <Pthing> easy
22:11:08 <Pthing> so don't intercalate all es
22:11:08 <alise> beeep = b, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e
22:11:09 <Pthing> jesus
22:11:14 <alise> so you have a limited set
22:11:17 <alise> so your algorithm is more complicated
22:11:20 <Pthing> or don't even intercalate vowels
22:11:22 <alise> <alise> at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits
22:11:23 <Pthing> intercalate anything
22:11:27 <alise> jieortj
22:11:44 <alise> this is meant to be pronounceable and memorable, and to minimise the risk of confusing two forms
22:13:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net).
22:15:27 -!- jcp has joined.
22:19:12 -!- ineiros has changed nick to ineiros_.
22:20:15 -!- ineiros has joined.
22:23:23 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:27:19 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:28:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:33:22 -!- adam_d has joined.
22:34:28 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
22:35:15 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:35:37 -!- adam_d__ has joined.
22:35:57 -!- augur_ has joined.
22:38:05 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:39:13 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:43:25 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:45:56 <alise> Talis, man.
22:46:25 <fizzie> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/msg/07f29c8ea40c35a3 is where those foo-numbers came from, though I think Giggle and Wiggle are mooz's inventions. And yes, it's not quite optimized for information density, or anything.
22:48:22 <alise> basically it's the decimal system but instead of "one hundred and seventy two" you say fazzoo kizzink bar".
22:48:25 <alise> *"fazzoo
22:49:24 -!- adam_d__ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:50:09 <fizzie> Yes, well, sort-of. It's not a positional system at first, the power-of-ten is indicated by the circumfix izz/azz/uzz.
22:51:12 <fizzie> I guess the English spelling isn't very positional either, though.
22:52:48 <fizzie> s/circumfix/interfix/, wasn't thinking.
22:53:18 <fizzie> Or infix.
22:53:34 <fizzie> Apparently it's infix if it's inside a single stem, and interfix if it joins two stems.
22:55:59 -!- Libster` has joined.
23:08:24 -!- Libster` has left (?).
23:09:01 -!- Libster has joined.
23:14:23 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:19:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:20:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:21:42 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:28:15 <augur_> more interesting linguistics time!
23:28:48 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
23:28:56 <alise> Oh, god.
23:29:59 <augur> as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y"
23:30:14 <alise> We've been over this before.
23:30:25 <alise> I think it's probably a limitation of the human brain's shorthand engine.
23:30:39 <alise> We need the main detail to be the grammatical form, so to speak, of the shorthand.
23:30:42 <alise> Otherwise we can't remember it.
23:30:50 <augur> actually, it doesnt seem to be that at all
23:31:01 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:31:05 -!- Libster has joined.
23:31:07 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:31:09 <augur> the brain can encode a SHIT TONNE of things, extraordinarily complex things, in lexical semantics
23:31:12 -!- Libster has joined.
23:31:14 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:31:17 -!- Libster has joined.
23:31:23 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:31:26 -!- Libster has joined.
23:31:30 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:31:34 -!- Libster has joined.
23:31:51 <augur> just consider what it means to cherrypick.
23:32:27 <augur> "X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so"
23:32:30 <augur> or something like that
23:33:00 <MissPiggy> yeah
23:33:08 <MissPiggy> that's a good complex one
23:34:25 <oklopol> there should be a conlang all of whose grammar and semantics have been proven impossible to learn
23:34:27 <augur> the best anyone can get is either that the representations for _linguistic_ meaning are of a very specific sort, and this happens to not allow "glump"
23:34:35 <MissPiggy> the thing is it's like a self contained action though, you go sit at your desk and cherry pick.. but glumped is one action (kissed) and a kind of reference (someone who is allergic to Y) -- so it's complex on a different level.. but it doesn't seem TOO complex
23:34:47 <oklopol> or at least an esolang
23:34:49 <MissPiggy> oklopol lol
23:35:09 <augur> or that like, certain kinds of verbs are derived SYNTACTICALLY, and thus since the derivation is in violation of a syntactic constraint, its obviously impossible
23:35:47 <augur> MissPiggy: its not really all that complex tho
23:35:54 <MissPiggy> yeah that's the thing..
23:35:58 <augur> i mean its not unimaginable that you might have an affix like, say
23:36:02 <augur> -phobe
23:36:04 <augur> approximately
23:36:12 <augur> which means "person allergic to whatever"
23:36:19 <augur> "John kissed a peanutophobe"
23:36:30 <alise> <augur> "X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so"
23:36:35 <alise> irrelevant
23:36:42 <augur> its NOT irrelevant alise
23:36:44 <alise> carefully choosing is still the 'underlying form' of cherrypicking
23:36:55 <alise> "X carefully chose from Y" also makes sense, it is just not as descriptive
23:36:56 <alise> whereas
23:37:00 <alise> <augur> as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y"
23:37:09 <alise> "X kissed Y" does not make sense as a substitute for "X glumped Y"
23:37:20 <alise> thus, we cannot understand glumping to be kissing-but-more-specific.
23:37:22 <augur> that its a good substitute is irrelevant
23:37:26 <alise> that is my theory, anyway
23:37:53 <augur> its not supposed to be a substitute
23:38:05 <augur> its supposed to be a single verb with a complex meaning
23:38:19 <alise> well my sample size of 2 makes me very happy tyvm :P
23:38:28 <augur> your sample size of two?
23:38:28 <augur> what?
23:39:32 <augur> anyway, its just an interesting fact that seems to lack a good well fleshed out explanation.
23:39:46 <alise> cherrypicker fits my rule
23:39:47 <alise> glumping doesn't
23:39:51 <alise> therefore i am right qed
23:40:02 <augur> ilunga.
23:40:23 <augur> nominal semantics is notoriously fluid.
23:40:38 <augur> consider "bean" or "pelt"
23:40:49 <augur> to bean someone is to pelt someone on the head
23:41:03 <augur> to pelt someone is to hit someone with a thrown object
23:41:13 <MissPiggy> subroutines
23:41:15 <MissPiggy> :D
23:41:18 <augur> "X beaned Y" = "X hit Y on the head with a thrown object"
23:41:52 <augur> what makes beaning any more a kind of hitting, while glumping isnt a kind of kissing
23:41:59 <augur> surely it IS a kind of kissing
23:42:08 <augur> all acts of glumping are acts of kissing
23:44:41 * MissPiggy glumps augur
23:45:01 <augur> so you kissed alise?
23:45:02 <augur> :D
23:46:31 <alise> lol.
23:46:44 -!- Libster` has joined.
23:46:57 <alise> augur: I was considering it on a syntactic level
23:46:59 <alise> fizzie: ^
23:47:07 -!- Libster` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:47:12 <alise> fizzie: never mind.
23:47:13 -!- Libster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:47:59 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:48:45 <augur> alise: considering it syntactically is kinda good actually
23:49:00 <augur> one of the ideas from generative semantics is that these verbs are genuinely derived syntactically
23:49:09 <augur> e.g. IF glump were to exist with that meaning
23:49:13 <augur> you would derive it like so:
23:49:17 <alise> here I will use X <-> Y to mean "X can be replaced by Y, as long as you don't mind losing information; no incorrect information will be added":
23:49:23 <alise> cherrypicking <-> choosing carefully from
23:49:28 <alise> !(glumping <-> kissing)
23:49:39 <alise> "X glumped Y" isn't a more specific form of "X kissed Y", therefore you cannot have it
23:49:43 <alise> this is just random hypothesis
23:49:58 <augur> sure its a more specific form of kissing
23:50:03 <augur> you're doing the equating wrong
23:50:10 <augur> X CAN be replaced by Y
23:50:15 <augur> but you're not choosing the right Y
23:50:36 <augur> glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to
23:50:51 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
23:51:06 <Gregor> Allergic to what, kissing? :P
23:51:11 <Gregor> So it's like mean kissing
23:51:14 <augur> allergic to whatever is being glumped.
23:51:26 <augur> if you glump peanuts, you kiss someone allerging to peanuts
23:51:58 <oklopol> augur: but Y is being hit, it's not being kissed
23:52:23 <augur> this is true, and that might be relevant
23:52:47 <oklopol> but seriously, you're making me want to study linguistics with your crazy kids-can't-learn-this stories
23:52:48 <augur> but we dont know how to specify that in the theory because there are minor examples where that DOESNT seem to be relevant
23:52:50 <augur> for instance
23:53:24 <augur> if you sing as you're leaving a party, you can arguably say that you sang your way out of the party
23:53:46 <augur> but you're certainly not singing a path, you're singing a song
23:54:21 <augur> the GS account was that its an entirely syntactic process
23:54:25 <Gregor> If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party.
23:54:47 <augur> yes, but youre still not singing the PATH you're singing the SONG
23:54:48 <Asztal> Or your singing is so bad that you're thrown out
23:54:50 <augur> which CREATED the path
23:55:23 <augur> to sing a PATH you'd have to like... try to sing, and out of your mouth comes a path through the crowd of people, like your mouth spews emptiness or something
23:56:28 <alise> <augur> you're doing the equating wrong
23:56:28 <alise> <augur> X CAN be replaced by Y
23:56:28 <alise> <augur> but you're not choosing the right Y
23:56:28 <alise> <augur> glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to
23:56:29 <alise> EXACTLY
23:56:32 <alise> the main part of cherry picking
23:56:36 <alise> is choosing carefully from
23:56:39 <alise> the main semantic part of glumping
23:56:41 <alise> is kissing
23:56:43 <alise> the allergic part is a detail
23:56:49 <alise> but we can't replace it directly with kissing
23:56:57 <augur> no the main semantic part of glumping is kissing someone allergic to
23:57:36 <augur> further, really, cherrypicking isnt actually choosing carefully from
23:57:45 <alise> <Gregor> If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party.
23:57:46 <alise> loool
23:57:53 <augur> its choosing something (the cherrypicked thing) from some other set of things
23:57:53 <alise> augur: yes, but someone who is cherrypicking is choosing carefully from something
23:57:57 <alise> it doesn't convey the full meaning
23:57:59 <augur> you cherrypick your examples from your data
23:57:59 <alise> but it's not untrue
23:58:18 <alise> i.e., an acceptable substitution is one which reduces meaning, but does not result in falsity
23:58:22 <augur> nor is it untrue to say that glumping = kissing someone allergic to!
23:59:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
←2010-02-13 2010-02-14 2010-02-15→ ↑2010 ↑all