←2010-02-26 2010-02-27 2010-02-28→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:13 <oerjan> i'm sure a limit just under what a computer can actually handle would be very annoying for those trying to do calculations _pushing_ what their computer can handle...
00:00:34 <fizzie> And in fact only 8 GB for a 32-bit system, because the limb size is 32 bits too. It's still larger than the directly addressable memory, anyhow.
00:00:58 <fizzie> But, heck, even our new cluster nodes have 64 GB of physical memory. You can fit three, almost four GMP MAX_BIGNUMs in there.
00:09:18 -!- cpressey has left (?).
00:37:19 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:37:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:55:22 -!- Wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:57:30 -!- Wareya has joined.
01:29:47 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:12:32 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
03:25:59 <Gregor> http://www.solidcolorneckties.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/30607/subcatid/73650/id/422493 Need
03:26:35 <Oranjer> get it, immediately
03:27:41 <Gregor> I don't actually know how to tie a bow-tie :P
03:27:51 <pikhq> Fix that.
03:28:24 <Oranjer> yes!
03:33:53 <Gregor> Also, I don't know which is better: The fact that solidcolorneckties.com exists, or the fact that they sell non-solid-color ties :P
03:35:44 <oerjan> clearly it's solid as opposed to liquid, here
03:37:53 <oerjan> the white plasma neckties never really caught on
03:37:56 <oerjan> food ->
03:39:06 <Oranjer> fish-bowl bow ties, eh?
03:40:30 <Gregor> I have gas-color neckties.
03:40:38 <Gregor> They're clear, inflatable plastic.
03:41:17 <Oranjer> awesomes
03:41:24 <Oranjer> sounds like something for a rave
03:41:30 <Oranjer> I wonder how the light would act...
03:51:30 <Gregor> Oh no ...
03:51:34 <Gregor> They only have it in pre-tied :(
03:51:36 <Gregor> That's so much lame.
03:52:39 <Oranjer> like a clip on
03:52:44 <Oranjer> clip-on?
03:53:59 <Gregor> I assume so
03:55:26 <Gregor> I'm not sure if it's worth it now :(
03:59:00 <Oranjer> ...make your own?
04:00:03 <Gregor> Make my own ... bow-tie ...
04:00:42 <Oranjer> seems plausible
04:00:46 <Oranjer> why not?
04:31:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:39:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:39:49 <zzo38> GAME OF SPIDER-WEB IN DARK!!
04:45:12 <Gregor> zzo38: Caching isn't broken, it just doesn't know that your script uses randomness.
04:45:31 <zzo38> Gregor: Is there a way to disable caching though, in the header output or something like that?
04:45:57 <Gregor> zzo38: See zzo38: http://hackiki.org/wiki/features.caching
04:46:01 <zzo38> Just so you know, I have made some kind of fix to the script.
04:46:04 <zzo38> http://hackiki.org/wiki/adventure_ideas
04:46:17 <zzo38> Select the [AGAIN] link for another random
04:47:29 <zzo38> I wonder if there is another way, such as by setting a cookie with the current timestamp and that would make the request not-identical?
04:47:33 <zzo38> Would that work?
04:47:54 <Gregor> Just touch a file if you use randomness.
04:48:16 <Gregor> Really, randomness isn't part of the design intent of caching, the best thing would be to run a non-cached Hackiki.
04:48:30 <zzo38> O, so I would just use touch on the current file, then?
04:49:20 <zzo38> Should I write: touch('bin/'.$filename);
04:49:34 <Gregor> Nono, you have to actually make a change, e.g. date > /hackiki/nocache or something akin to that. Maybe I'll make a more elegant mechanism, but like I said, the best thing would be to run a non-cached Hackiki if you need random behavior.
04:49:41 <zzo38> I will try that to see if it helps a bit. But then it won't work if you are not logged in?
04:49:51 <Gregor> Good point :)
04:50:30 -!- madbr has joined.
04:51:40 <zzo38> Like, if I could do "headers\nnocache\n\n" if you programmed Hackiki to support a function like that
04:51:44 <Gregor> Yeah, some mechanism for a script to indicate to Hackiki that it can't be cached would be useful. Not sure if there's sufficient use cases for it to me ...
04:54:53 <zzo38> Well, simply to make Hackiki complete, of course.
04:55:07 <Gregor> :P
04:55:18 <Gregor> Hackiki is supposed to be /simple/ :P
04:55:51 <zzo38> Yes, simple, but it should be complete, too. (Will setting a cookie do it?)
04:56:51 <zzo38> O, and feel free to edit my list of adventure ideas for Furryscript now that it is on Hackiki.
04:57:47 <zzo38> I read the cache description, does "same everything" include cookies?
04:58:20 <Gregor> I'm setting it up as a header.
04:58:33 <zzo38> OK
04:58:34 <Gregor> No, it doesn't, the scripts can't (currently) read cookies.
04:58:43 <zzo38> OK, thanks
04:59:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Not true. They can read them with Javascript.
04:59:03 <pikhq> ;)
04:59:07 <madbr> furryscript?
04:59:07 <Gregor> Besides, if it included cookies then the cache would border on useless.
05:05:31 <Gregor> zzo38: If a page sets the header X-Hackiki-Cached: No, then it won't cache.
05:54:16 <Oranjer> byeee
05:54:17 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
05:59:04 <Sgeo> Given a magical HTTP server that can set the URL of the client anytime it wants, what would you do?
06:00:00 <Sgeo> In terms of AJAXiness
06:00:50 <Sgeo> n/m
06:16:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:19:27 <uorygl> It's strange when people say that they've disproved a theorem.
06:19:58 <uorygl> Do they mean that they've proven a contradictory theorem, that they've proved the underlying theory inconsistent, or that they've found a flaw in the theorem?
06:20:13 <uorygl> (Speaking of inconsistency, my past participle of "prove".)
06:20:30 <puzzlet> they just "disproved," you know.
06:20:33 <pikhq> Any of the above.
06:21:11 <pikhq> It can also mean complete and utter bullshit.
06:28:27 * uorygl reads about an alleged inconsistency in ZFC, and ponders why it's not really an inconsistency in ZFC.
06:30:28 <uorygl> It's pretty much what I thought and/or remembered.
06:30:32 <uorygl> Skolem's paradox.
06:30:49 <uorygl> There are countable models of ZFC. Such models must contain uncountable sets. Contradiction?
06:31:07 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
06:31:12 <uorygl> No; an "uncountable set" in the model is really just a set where the enumeration is not in the model.
06:35:10 <zzo38> OK. I can set the header X-Hackiki-Cached
06:35:27 <zzo38> I have noticed that header when using netcat to connect to Hackiki.
06:36:28 <zzo38> Hay, it works! Thanks
06:38:39 <zzo38> And about disproving a theorem, well, there are many ways to do it.
06:40:43 <uorygl> I have a proof that I am the pope!
06:41:12 <uorygl> Suppose 2 + 2 = 5. We already know that 2 + 2 = 4. This means that 5 = 4, meaning that 2 = 1. Now, the Pope and I are two, which means that the Pope and I are one.
06:41:15 <uorygl> Q.E.D.
06:41:57 <zzo38> For example, I have read in some book about criteria that odd perfect numbers must meet, if they exist. Immediately I thought, if you can find criteria which contradict each other (and the proof of that), then you can also know there are no odd perfect numbers.
06:42:27 <zzo38> uorygl: Well, that doesn't prove you are the pope. Your logic says that if 2+2=5 then that makes you the pope. (Well, kind of.)
06:42:49 <uorygl> You just don't understand proof by contradiction. :P
06:43:03 <puzzlet> if you're perfect, there's no oddity
06:43:34 <Gracenotes> if your argument follows proof of contradiction structure, then you've just proved that 2+2≠4
06:43:35 <puzzlet> so nothing can be both odd and perfect same time
06:43:53 <Gracenotes> er. 2+2≠5
06:43:58 <uorygl> Proof by contradiction that 2 + 2 = 4:
06:44:10 <uorygl> Suppose 2 + 2 != 4. This contradicts the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. Therefore, 2 + 2 = 4.
06:44:36 <zzo38> uorygl: That's like self-reasoning, isn't it?
06:44:58 <Gracenotes> I object, I'm using the integers modulo 3 and it only goes up to 2
06:45:14 <Gracenotes> clearly 2 + 2 = 1
06:45:22 <uorygl> I agree. 2 + 2 = 1.
06:45:30 <zzo38> OK, sorry. I guess that's reasonable. But you have to specify, because otherwise it is not assumed!!
06:45:35 <uorygl> 4 is just an ugly way of writing 1.
06:46:06 <Gracenotes>
06:46:59 <lament> does turing's incompleteness theorem mean you're not allowed to use proofs by contradiction?
06:47:27 <zzo38> lament: As far as I know, it doesn't *always* disallow it, at least.
06:47:33 <uorygl> Turing has an incompleteness theorem?
06:47:37 <lament> godels
06:47:39 <lament> same thing
06:50:01 <uorygl> Well, why would it mean that?
06:50:24 <uorygl> A proof by contradiction doesn't say "if this were true, ZFC would be inconsistent".
06:50:37 <zzo38> I got it to work! http://hackiki.org/wiki/adventure_ideas You can edit the script if you want, or edit the bin/Furryscript file to change the form, or so on. It is Hackiki and is experiment for everyone with OpenID to do with
06:51:16 <zzo38> Did you know, that spider-web in dark is a good way to stop the war?
06:52:51 <Gracenotes> lament: it just says not everything is provable, right?
06:53:18 <Gracenotes> (I am not familiar with goedel's theorem so much, btw)
06:53:23 <uorygl> Well, there are two of the theorems.
06:53:36 <zzo38> Yes it is right not everything can be provable
06:53:37 <Gracenotes> there are certainly provable things, in the rendering I'm familiar with
06:53:47 <uorygl> I think the first one says that any sufficiently powerful consistent theory has statements that are true but not provable.
06:54:04 <uorygl> The second one says that if a sufficiently powerful theory has a proof of its own consistency, it is inconsistent.
06:54:35 <Gracenotes> good summary
06:55:32 <uorygl> You know, I once saw some argument that went like this:
06:56:28 <zzo38> Can you add an axiom to TNT that proves its own consistency?
06:57:47 <uorygl> Consider any theory's Goedel statement, which is "This theory has a disproof of its Goedel statement." Obviously, the Goedel statement is false for all theories. However, given a theory, it cannot disprove its own Goedel statement, whereas a human can tell it's false just by looking at it; therefore, humans can know things no mathematical theory can prove.
06:57:59 <uorygl> Which is a really, really dopey argument, because the Goedel statement is not false for all theories.
06:58:15 <uorygl> (Even if "theory" means "theory capable of expressing arithmetic", as I glossed.)
06:58:22 <uorygl> zzo38: well, what's TNT?
06:59:21 <zzo38> TNT = Typographical Number Theory
07:00:17 <uorygl> TNT + "TNT is consistent" is almost certainly consistent.
07:00:35 <zzo38> OK. I guess I thought so
07:00:36 <uorygl> The theory X where X = TNT + "X is consistent" is not consistent, I think.
07:00:49 <zzo38> OK
07:02:49 <uorygl> A cute theory is ZFC + "ZFC is inconsistent".
07:02:58 <zzo38> OK
07:03:12 <augur> Gracenotes :D
07:04:19 <uorygl> I wonder if you say "OK" every time I include a string of the form "X is consistent" or "X is inconsistent".
07:04:54 <zzo38> Maybe. I am just confirming that I read it and don't have a disagreement of it
07:06:09 <uorygl> A cute response is OK + "OK is inconsistent".
07:06:10 * uorygl coughs.
07:06:12 <zzo38> Do you know how to add natural numbers represented as sets?
07:06:19 <uorygl> To what?
07:06:21 <zzo38> OK + "OK is inconsistent"
07:06:28 <uorygl> Aww, how cute!
07:07:12 <zzo38> Like, if you have 0 is {} and 1 is {0} and 2 is {0,1} and so on, how do you figure out the set that is represent the sum of two natural numbers which are as sets, using only set operations (and not arithmetic operations)?
07:07:46 <uorygl> Hmm...
07:07:47 <augur> zzo38: whats your definition of successor there
07:07:59 <zzo38> successor={#|[#]};
07:08:05 <augur> because succ {} = {{}}, and succ {{}} = {{},{{}}}
07:08:07 <uorygl> The successor of X is X union {X}, I'm sure.
07:08:23 <zzo38> Yes, that's the same thing I just wrote, but in words
07:08:49 <augur> ok so then if 0 = {}, then succ {} = {} u {{}} = {{}}, such {{}} = {{}} u {{{}}} = {{},{{}}}, etc. ok, i see.
07:09:06 <zzo38> Yes
07:09:24 <augur> im used to seeing it be succ x = {x,{x}}
07:09:30 * uorygl straightens out his mind.
07:09:48 <uorygl> Okay. X + Y is X union {X + y : y is in Y}, I think.
07:10:12 <zzo38> OK, let me think about that a bit
07:10:39 <augur> i think your definition is fine
07:10:54 <augur> each number is the set of all numbers below it
07:11:06 <zzo38> augur: Yes, that's the usual way
07:11:13 <zzo38> And is the way I am using
07:11:15 <uorygl> It's a recursive definition, of course.
07:11:18 <augur> yes
07:11:19 <augur> thats what i just said :P
07:11:38 <zzo38> I know
07:11:43 <augur> ok then
07:14:08 <zzo38> And how should a pair be represent as a set?
07:14:20 <uorygl> (x,y) = {{x},{x,y}}
07:15:01 <zzo38> OK, that seems to work. I can add it into the esolang wiki page [[Hyper Set Language]]
07:15:28 <uorygl> Hmm. I found some philosophy forums online.
07:15:31 <uorygl> Reading them makes me ill.
07:16:32 <uorygl> I think one post said that the philosopher is a minus sign or phallus seeking Sophia.
07:17:06 <uorygl> The poster ought to have been banned on sight for saying anything so vacuous.
07:18:22 <zzo38> So that means that (0.0) is the same as ([1]) (in Hyper Set Language) [[0]] [[0];[0;0]]->[[0];[0]]->[[0]]
07:19:54 <uorygl> (0,0) is the same as 1.
07:20:00 <uorygl> And (0,1) is the same as 2.
07:20:07 <uorygl> And there are no other noteworthy equivalences.
07:20:41 <zzo38> Sorry, I think I made a mistake. Let me look again
07:20:47 <zzo38> Maybe I am a bit tired
07:21:02 <zzo38> Or maybe not.
07:21:05 <zzo38> Let me see again
07:21:42 <zzo38> Maybe I did or didn't make a mistake. Well, I will think of it tomorrow today I sleep
07:21:55 <zzo38> uorygl: I understand you, though.
07:22:18 <uorygl> Now figure out how to make a linked list.
07:22:21 <uorygl> Hint: it's really easy.
07:22:50 <zzo38> Yes, I can figure out, it is easy.
07:23:16 <zzo38> Just like the right part of the pair is the next pair of the list, isn't it?
07:23:39 <uorygl> Right.
07:24:11 <uorygl> You have Cartesian products and tagged unions. With those, you can implement ADTs. With those, you can implement... a lot.
07:26:39 <zzo38> As far as I know, this way of representing a pair might also mean that (fork\I) is "the set of all single element sets of single element sets"? (If I haven't made a mistake, that is)
07:27:04 <zzo38> Yes I can see, you can implement a lot.
07:27:44 <zzo38> I have implemented Russell's paradox, even. Now I want to see how many other paradoxes I can represent in Hyper Set Language, too.
07:29:39 <uorygl> In ZFC, there is no set of all single element sets of single element sets.
07:29:57 <zzo38> Now I have to think how to make the definition of sum you wrote, in Hyper Set Language.
07:30:00 <uorygl> Call that set S; it would have to have {{S}} as an element, which is not allowed.
07:30:55 <zzo38> OK, I understand. Of course, ZFC is not the only set theory
07:31:15 <zzo38> There is also another set theory I have read about on Wikipedia that allows the set of all sets
07:31:22 <uorygl> That sounds like NF.
07:31:35 <uorygl> I want to see a type theory thingy based on NF.
07:34:03 <zzo38> Yes, NF was the one I was thinking of.
07:36:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Riichi.).
07:43:56 <daef> mornin
07:50:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
07:50:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
07:51:10 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
07:53:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:09 -!- krana has joined.
08:03:44 -!- krana has left (?).
08:14:54 <augur> popquiz
08:15:40 <augur> uorygl: if you have a CFG and you have to rewrite all instances of a non-terminal simultaneously with the same rule, rather then in any order, does this change the power of the grammar?
08:18:53 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur).
08:20:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:26:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:37:28 -!- Asztal has joined.
08:48:04 -!- daef has left (?).
09:12:10 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.).
09:13:26 -!- tombom has joined.
09:19:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:23:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:31:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:58:33 -!- kar8nga has joined.
10:08:27 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:08:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
10:28:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:46:33 <augur> BEHOLD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_grammar
10:49:30 <AnMaster> augur, that term reminds me of "controlled substances"
10:49:45 <augur> ;D
10:49:47 <AnMaster> which explains a lot about linguistics :P
10:50:05 <augur> controlled grammars are almost exclusively CS.
10:50:14 <augur> i just posted that article tho.
10:50:21 <augur> took me like a week to write
10:50:52 * AnMaster considers adding a "this article's introduction may be too technical" template at the top
10:51:30 <AnMaster> also a lot of "citation needed" in various parts of it of course
10:52:30 <augur> the whole thing is basically from the two cited links.
10:53:04 <AnMaster> augur, aha! no _notable_ sources then!
10:53:13 <AnMaster> (or something)
10:53:24 <augur> it was incredibly hard to find information on any of these formalisms
10:54:04 <AnMaster> augur, you realise that apart from "this article's introduction may be too technical", the other suggestions were a parody of wikipedia?
10:54:20 <AnMaster> s/other/
10:54:29 <AnMaster> s/\//\/\/
10:54:32 <AnMaster> aaargh
10:54:38 <augur> XD
10:54:44 <AnMaster> s/\/$/\\/\//
10:54:46 <AnMaster> err
10:54:48 <AnMaster> not even that
10:54:49 <augur> hahahahaha
10:54:51 <AnMaster> s/\/$/\\\/\//
10:54:52 <AnMaster> even
10:54:57 <AnMaster> I think that might be correctr
10:55:01 <AnMaster> correct*
10:55:02 <augur> now we know how to get anmaster stuck in an infinite loop :D
10:55:10 <AnMaster> augur, or I just do:
10:55:24 <AnMaster> /other/s#$#/#
10:55:25 <AnMaster> there
11:22:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:05:15 <AnMaster> ^source
12:05:15 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
12:08:37 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:13:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:13:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:31:33 -!- kar8nga has joined.
12:50:19 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalist_grammar
12:50:20 <augur> :D
13:24:43 -!- MizardX has joined.
13:30:45 -!- scarf has joined.
13:45:17 * AnMaster glares at Deewiant for causing unnecessary debugging by not clearly stating that mycouser after it reported it could read a char also informed that it read an additional char and threw it away (presumed to be a newline I guess)
13:45:35 <AnMaster> thus making me think that my STRN in efunge was silently dropping a letter
13:45:47 <AnMaster> spent about 10 minutes debugging that before I found out the cause
13:54:35 <scarf> ouch
13:57:33 <AnMaster> exactly
13:57:36 <AnMaster> hi scarf btw
14:01:10 <scarf> wow, security update for sudo, you don't get those often
14:01:50 <scarf> local privilege escalation, as well
14:02:03 <AnMaster> saw it and updated
14:03:11 <scarf> yep, it isn't exploitable with the default config, though
14:03:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:03:53 <AnMaster> scarf, well, my config is close to default iirc
14:04:22 <scarf> basically, the bug is that if you grant permission to arbitrary people to edit a particular file via sudoedit
14:04:34 <scarf> then arbitrary people can run an exectuable named sudoedit in any directory
14:04:52 <scarf> which they could have written themselves
14:05:13 <scarf> if you aren't granting permission to sudoedit particular files, everything's fine
14:05:38 <AnMaster> I never used sudoedit
14:06:23 <scarf> I've used it on occasion, but my /etc/sudoers doesn't grant me or anyone else any permission to use it beyond my typical permission to sudo anything
14:06:37 <AnMaster> scarf, oh btw I think it would be a good idea to formally prove su and sudo correct. Probably needs to be rewritten in some other language for that to be feasible
14:06:46 <scarf> hmm, interesting
14:07:11 <AnMaster> those are quite security sensitive so...
14:07:15 <scarf> su should be incredibly simple, shouldn't it? call out to PAM to verify auth, suid to whatever user that it
14:07:16 <scarf> *is
14:07:21 <scarf> sudo is quite a bit more complex
14:07:28 <AnMaster> scarf, PAM would need to be verified
14:07:30 <AnMaster> as well
14:07:34 <scarf> yep
14:07:43 <scarf> I think proving PAM correct is more interesting than proving su correct
14:08:00 <AnMaster> yep
14:08:15 <AnMaster> and that depends on the actual pam config in use too
14:08:48 <AnMaster> but you could probably at least prove each module correct
14:09:07 <AnMaster> and the framework itself I guess
14:09:31 <AnMaster> if you have doen that, proving any specific setup correct shouldn't be too hard
14:10:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:10:50 <AnMaster> of course, for modules like ldap or nis auth or whatever, you would need to prove the tcp/ip stack, the network, and the remote server correct. Which is not really feasible
14:17:04 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
14:21:47 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Quit: Changing server).
14:22:07 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
14:22:15 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Changing host).
14:22:15 -!- MissPiggy has joined.
14:29:48 <scarf> ooh, darcs 2.4 is out
14:33:44 <oerjan> a darc time for humankind
14:43:26 <AnMaster> -_-
15:16:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:17:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
15:20:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:25:08 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:25:23 -!- tombom has joined.
16:11:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:23:00 <Sgeo_> Where's alise?
16:23:13 <scarf> haven't seen him this weekend at all
16:23:13 <scarf> I'm worried
16:23:29 <MissPiggy> hello
16:23:36 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
16:24:05 <MissPiggy> I would like if alise came on
16:33:35 <AnMaster> scarf, same
16:48:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net).
16:50:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would using opaque values in SOCK break anything do you think?
16:50:53 <AnMaster> for mycology or other apps
16:51:12 <Deewiant> Mycology prints them, at least
16:51:16 <AnMaster> hm okay
16:51:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't for the FILE handles iirc
16:54:55 <Deewiant> So it doesn't
16:54:58 <AnMaster> actually, implementing SOCK in efunge would be nasty... erlang's abstraction of the sockets API of the OS makes it rather different than BSD sockets
16:55:00 <AnMaster> so
16:55:36 <AnMaster> I would have to emulate the bsd style sockets on top of the erlang abstraction of the bsd-style sockets of the OS!
16:56:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wonderful isn't it with fingerprints that assume something similar to C is being used ;)
16:57:09 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:57:58 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:58:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't you complain about that too some time ago?
16:58:33 <AnMaster> might have been about ncurses API using macros
16:58:47 <Deewiant> That's not really the fingerprint's fault, though
16:59:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, it could have used another abstraction...
16:59:20 <Deewiant> Sure, but it specifically wanted to be a curses binding :-P
17:00:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, I have no idea how to set SO_DEBUG in erlang. Not that I can find the man page documenting what SO_DEBUG actually means anyway...
17:00:31 <AnMaster> aahhh seems to have found it
17:00:38 <AnMaster> long live full text search with man
17:00:44 <AnMaster> man 7 socket has it
17:00:54 <AnMaster> "Enable socket debugging. Only allowed for processes with the CAP_NET_ADMIN capability or an effective user ID of 0."
17:00:57 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:01:05 <AnMaster> who would run a funge program as root heh
17:04:59 <asiekierka> I love FerNANDo
17:06:28 <Ilari> Actually on Linux that means having CAP_NET_ADMIN...
17:06:58 <Ilari> Well, that capability is enough to make total mess of networking, but..
17:07:51 <AnMaster> Ilari, true, but in my experience capabilities are rarely used
17:07:57 <AnMaster> it's usually root or nothing
17:08:09 <AnMaster> sure, the support is there but few use file caps or such
17:10:29 <asiekierka> scarf, why did you quit? :(
17:10:36 <asiekierka> We were having so much fun in IRP#IRP
17:10:42 <scarf> asiekierka: before you could correct your mistake
17:10:58 <scarf> the funny thing is, I didn't even swap the mouse buttons just to confuse you
17:11:07 <asiekierka> Please enable IRP interpretation capabiities in #esoteric.
17:11:07 <scarf> I've had them that way round for a while, because the left one is unreliable
17:11:20 <scarf> asiekierka: nothing says I have to interpret IRP queries here!
17:11:37 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | You have to interpret IRP here..
17:11:40 <asiekierka> Please enable IRP interpretation capabiities in #esoteric.
17:11:50 <asiekierka> >:D
17:11:54 -!- AnMaster has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:11:57 <scarf> asiekierka: you can't just cahnge the topic like that
17:11:59 <scarf> as in, it doesn't work
17:12:04 <scarf> the topic isn't a binding contract
17:12:17 <scarf> (nor would putting "this topic is a binding contract" in the topic work, not even against Agorans)
17:12:18 <Sgeo> Hm, so a server is only capable of sending text/plain, but can force the client to go to arbitrary URLs, including data: URLs.
17:12:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | The topic is now a binding contract. | You have to interpret IRP queries..
17:12:30 <asiekierka> whoopies
17:12:34 <asiekierka> missed your next message
17:12:41 <scarf> Sgeo: I love your reasoning there
17:12:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:13:06 -!- scarf has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:13:13 <Sgeo> There is a 1024 byte limit on URLs
17:13:57 <Sgeo> Someone devised a way to have longer stuff work, by making a short data: based page essentially pull text from the server as though it were Javascript, and that Javascript displays the content from the server as HTML
17:13:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it looks like I can't set all options for sockets. As in not all options have a mapping in the erlang API for sockets. Any opinions on the best workaround? Reflecting if those options are used?
17:14:07 <Sgeo> So, in that system, is there any way to get forums working nicely?
17:14:08 -!- asiekierka has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | #esoteric == #irp.
17:14:13 <asiekierka> Will that work, scarf?
17:14:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But do they matter?
17:14:19 <scarf> asiekierka: err, no
17:14:29 <scarf> and stop messing with the topic
17:14:31 <Sgeo> scarf, this is reality in Second Life
17:14:32 <Deewiant> I mean, maybe you can't implement a certain option but is there a visible difference
17:14:34 -!- scarf has set topic: 0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:14:42 <Sgeo> scarf, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/lsl_hacks
17:14:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, out of band data can't be received with that API then
17:14:46 <Deewiant> FFS with the topic
17:14:58 <scarf> Sgeo: probably
17:15:13 <scarf> this reminds me of the whole concept of a client-side website
17:15:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not that that bit matters in practise. SO_DEBUG can't be done either
17:15:18 <scarf> which works vaguely P2Pishly
17:15:23 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang about video tapes
17:15:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, reuseaddr can be done, haven't yet checked the other ones
17:16:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: For example SO_DEBUG, how can you do "socket debugging" through the SOCK API anyway?
17:16:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good point
17:16:42 <Deewiant> So these kinds of options you can just ignore
17:16:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway: so_reuseaddr, so_keepalive and so_broadcast seems supported
17:16:50 <AnMaster> the other ones: not
17:17:30 <asiekierka> any ideas how could a magnetic medium (VHS tapes, audio cassettes...) -based esolang work
17:17:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also tcp and udp sockets have quite different APIs in erlang. Ones that make more sense for them than a generic one. But that means I need multiple code paths in SOCK. One for tcp and one for udp
17:17:55 <AnMaster> they are even completely different erlang modules
17:18:17 <AnMaster> oh dontroute exists too it seems
17:18:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway SO_OOBINLINE *might* matter: "If this option is enabled, out-of-band data is directly placed into the receive data stream. Otherwise out-of-band data is only passed when the MSG_OOB flag is set during receiving."
17:20:45 <Deewiant> And how do you plan on setting MSG_OOB through the SOCK API?
17:20:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:20:54 <Deewiant> Note: I have no idea what out-of-band data is
17:20:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, impossible afaik
17:21:08 <AnMaster> which means that feature will be inaccessible
17:21:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway the remote endpoint could send out of band data I guess
17:21:27 <AnMaster> and yeah I have no clue what it is either
17:21:31 <Deewiant> It basically means ignore out-of-band data if it's disabled
17:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can't get at out of band data with the erlang api it seems
17:21:48 <AnMaster> at all
17:22:16 <AnMaster> (which indicates it is rarely used)
17:23:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems related to the URG TCP (or possibly IP?) flag
17:23:39 <fizzie> For TCP, OOB data generally maps to the URG flag/pointer.
17:23:44 <AnMaster> right
17:23:56 <fizzie> Arr, I blame the slowish N900 keyboard.
17:24:08 <fizzie> But it's not much used.
17:24:13 <AnMaster> right
17:25:02 <fizzie> Telnet uses it for sending some things, I think.
17:25:07 <AnMaster> mhm
17:27:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, you talked about ATHR in some future fungot_2. You do know that SOCK and FILE handles would not be inheritable between threads right?
17:27:12 <fungot> AnMaster: quantum mechanic knows that lizard corpses protect against cockatrices. use a dagger." the hunt is up! even if we can only wish for a while, when i came here, i go to the sea; there's no food.
17:27:16 <AnMaster> at least that is the plan
17:27:27 <AnMaster> and for FILE it is already the case (since FILE is implemented)
17:34:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Explicitly disallowed or implementation-defined?
17:36:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, explicitly undefined behaviour
17:36:42 <AnMaster> which means using a handle from another thread could map to nasal demons
17:38:19 <Deewiant> Aye.
17:39:33 <scarf> you could have a separate thread to handle handles
17:39:38 <scarf> and all the other threads call out to it
17:41:57 <AnMaster> scarf, well of course
17:42:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also the spec allows that handle 1 in one thread might be different from handle 1 in another thread
17:42:28 <AnMaster> in efunge this is the case
17:42:40 <AnMaster> and sock might have overlapping handles with file too
17:43:11 <AnMaster> anyway, I wish it could be done as opaque socket objects
17:43:34 <AnMaster> but really, it is currently more pain that it is worth.
17:44:21 <AnMaster> actually adding support for opaque objects wouldn't be too hard in efunge. A few things would have to be modified to reflect on them (one socket plus another? huh?)
17:45:15 <AnMaster> it should be fairly straightforward though
17:50:39 <Sgeo> Quick Javascript question: Is it possible to submit the data in a form to a server without actually changing the page? If so, how?
17:51:48 <Deewiant> It is, don't know how
17:52:02 <Deewiant> See the source of things like GMail :-P
17:52:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: We call it "AJAX".
17:53:12 <Sgeo> Is there a way to do it without .. that XML function thingy?
17:53:12 <Deewiant> I don't
17:53:19 <MissPiggy> ait that's not submitting a form is it?
17:53:20 <Deewiant> Yes, again don't know how
17:53:29 <MissPiggy> can javascript POST as well as GET?
17:53:29 <pikhq> It only has XML in the name.
17:53:37 <pikhq> It has jack shit to do with actual XML.
17:53:49 <Sgeo> Was about to say that it has cross-browser issues, but I know the browser being used
17:54:06 <Deewiant> MissPiggy: I'm fairly sure it can
17:54:08 <MissPiggy> I think javascript can POST a form yes
17:54:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't off the top of my head, but I can check
17:54:24 <FireFly> <Sgeo> Is there a way to do it without .. that XML function thingy? <-- You can use an iframe
17:54:27 <FireFly> a bit ugly, but works
17:54:35 <FireFly> otherwise XHR would be the only way, AFAIK
17:54:45 <pikhq> XMLHttpRequest is supported by pretty much everything but IE 6.
17:54:56 <pikhq> (Need to use the nearly-equivalent XMLHTTP for that)
17:55:31 <pikhq> And yes, you can post with it.
17:56:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, no it isn't
17:56:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, for example: lynx, links, w3m
17:56:34 <AnMaster> afaik none of them supports XMLHttpRequest
17:56:46 <MissPiggy> yes but you can only do a POST to your own server
17:56:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: XD
17:56:48 <pikhq> elinks might, though.
17:56:51 <Sgeo> I think what I'm using is essentially Gecko
17:56:53 <MissPiggy> it is not possible to post to another server is it?
17:56:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, *maybe*
17:57:13 <MissPiggy> what if you wanted to post to another server
17:57:35 <Sgeo> "There's now a new tutorial on the 'Projects' menu for you to have a try at. This implements the popular CAPTCHA method of form validation, to prevent abuse by spambots and the like. Here we use Ajax to build CAPTCHA into the normal form validation, so the check can conveniently be done before form submission."
17:57:38 * Sgeo facepalms
17:57:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, why?
17:58:01 <FireFly> MissPiggy, I think POST via JS is quite impossible atm, dunno about HTML5
17:58:17 <Sgeo> Hm, misunderstood what it was saying
17:58:28 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, can't you only GET to your own server as well iirc
17:58:31 * Sgeo facepalms self for facepalming something that wasn't in fact insane
17:58:35 <AnMaster> using XMLHttpRequest that is
17:58:51 <AnMaster> I thought that was part of the point of it.
17:58:56 <AnMaster> same domain or something
18:00:31 <pikhq> FireFly: XMLHttpRequest allows it.
18:00:48 <FireFly> uh, cross-site I meant*
18:00:49 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:00:55 <pikhq> As does the spec.
18:03:29 <MissPiggy> what about iframes?
18:03:46 <MissPiggy> I imagine you could GET from a different server using an iframe
18:03:51 <MissPiggy> but what about POSTing?
18:06:31 <pikhq> You could use JS to click on a button in the iframe?
18:07:06 <MissPiggy> you could even load a page, edit it to include new fields and post ?
18:10:12 -!- SimonRC has joined.
18:12:49 * pikhq wonders where the e'est of the hirds is.
18:13:36 <fizzie> Wasn't that recent Freenode spam exactly about doing a POST request (that looked like a IRC connection start-up) via a bit of JavaScript embedded on a page.
18:14:50 <fizzie> I didn't ever see the spam-links so I couldn't take a look at what they did exactly.
18:15:47 <pikhq> fizzie: It was.
18:16:01 <pikhq> I wget'ted it and poked around.
18:16:05 <pikhq> Nasty bit of work.
18:16:38 <fizzie> Was it XHR-driven?
18:16:45 -!- fxkr has left (?).
18:16:49 <pikhq> Think so.
18:17:27 <fizzie> Though I do have an (unjustified) belief that simply building an invisible form with the usual DOM methods and submitting that could also work.
18:17:45 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I didn't ever see the spam-links so I couldn't take a look at what they did exactly. <-- I saw it. It was iframe based iirc
18:17:52 <AnMaster> with some javascript
18:18:50 <AnMaster> so it used a real form and submitted it
18:18:57 <AnMaster> using javascript
18:26:00 <fizzie> Speaking of which, I also wonder how you could show an in-memory DOM document object (obtained from document.implementation.CreateDocument(...)) to the user. It's not like it has an URL (except a data: URL, of course), and I'm not sure if you can just assign to window.document. (Maybe you can.)
18:27:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
18:54:41 -!- jcp has joined.
19:45:36 -!- daef has joined.
19:45:42 <daef> hi there again
19:47:20 <daef> AnMaster: had no time to read the specs today - but we came a lot nearer to our goal with the videowall-hack :D
19:48:01 <AnMaster> daef, what is that hack btw?
19:48:08 <AnMaster> daef, I hope it is all legal too
19:48:17 <AnMaster> otherwise I don't want to hear about it
19:49:11 <daef> AnMaster: nothing really illegal - we just want to display some of our content on a "public" videowall - just shows ad's all day long - nobody wants to see THAT....
19:49:19 <daef> so we found where the signal comes from
19:50:03 <AnMaster> no no no this sounds bad
19:50:15 <daef> it sounds fun xD
19:50:20 <daef> we do no harm
19:50:24 <daef> we destroy nothing
19:50:32 <daef> i guess it files under "okay"
19:51:24 <daef> nevermind
19:51:43 <daef> what's the best way to understand belonge-app's that go further than hello world?
19:52:01 <daef> i've seen the game of life implementation on the german wikipedia
19:52:10 <daef> it looks really bad :)
20:08:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:20:20 <AnMaster> daef, "belonge"?
20:20:24 <AnMaster> did you mean befunge?
20:20:34 <daef> sry - braindead
20:20:44 <AnMaster> daef, and the GOL in befunge, well I haven't traced it myself
20:20:48 <daef> s/belonge/befunge/g
20:20:49 <AnMaster> but you would try to trace it
20:21:06 <AnMaster> if it is the famouse 93 one it shouldn't be completely impossible
20:21:16 <daef> where do i get a nice visualising interpreter`?
20:21:18 <AnMaster> of course befunge-93 tends to be as compact as possible
20:21:23 <AnMaster> due to the limited space they had
20:21:29 <AnMaster> wich was 25x80
20:21:35 <AnMaster> err make that 80x25 of course
20:21:39 <daef> already read that
20:22:04 <AnMaster> daef, befunge-98 programs have 2^32*2^32 at least, and thus tend to be a lot less compact :)
20:22:09 <AnMaster> as for visual interpreters, no idea
20:22:13 <fizzie> Mooz had a very nice "syntax-highlighted" bit of Befunge(-93, mostly); coloured blocks with comments for each colour.
20:22:14 <AnMaster> but it should be possible to write that
20:22:26 <fizzie> Unfortunately I don't think that thing is in the web any more.
20:22:30 <daef> a interpreter shouldn't be that hard
20:22:36 <daef> (for 93)
20:22:37 <AnMaster> daef, befunge93? trivial
20:22:41 <AnMaster> befunge-98 is hard
20:22:42 <AnMaster> however
20:22:50 <daef> an 2dimensional IP, a stack - ready
20:22:52 <AnMaster> just use the trace output from an existing interpreter with that feature
20:23:04 <AnMaster> daef, and various commands operating on those
20:23:08 <daef> sure
20:23:09 <AnMaster> anyway.
20:23:09 <fizzie> I had an equally nice Turing machine interpreter syntax-highlightation in Befunge-mostly-93, but I stupidly lost that; both the code and the comments.
20:23:20 <daef> lol
20:23:39 <fizzie> And there's the start for commented fungot code, but that's probably not a good example, and it's incomplete anyway.
20:23:40 <fungot> fizzie: the longer the wand the better.
20:23:58 <AnMaster> cfunge can produce output like:
20:24:00 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=26 y=15: > (62)
20:24:01 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=27 y=15: : (58)
20:24:01 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=28 y=15: # (35)
20:24:36 <AnMaster> it should be possible to use the coordinates to draw a trace
20:24:52 <fizzie> I'm sure there are many -93 interpreters that can show the playfield and stack, and single-step through code.
20:24:59 <AnMaster> well sure
20:25:04 <AnMaster> but not draw nice traces on it
20:25:26 <Deewiant> If they can single-step you can get a trace easily
20:25:47 <AnMaster> (tix and tid are related to t of course, but drawing a trace in a program that uses t is probably too confusing to be useful anyway!)
20:26:07 <AnMaster> then single stepping and watching it might be more useful
20:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about that glfunge? ;P
20:26:22 <daef> t was which one?
20:26:24 <fizzie> I think I started my Befunge career with zbefunge, which has that sort of thing, but in general I don't think it's a very good interpreter.
20:26:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: Shamefully dead.
20:26:33 <Deewiant> daef: Fork another IP
20:26:38 <AnMaster> daef, lock-step threads
20:26:46 <daef> kk - 93 already had that?
20:26:48 <AnMaster> rounds on a round-robin schedule
20:26:48 <Deewiant> No
20:26:50 <AnMaster> daef, no
20:26:52 <daef> kk
20:26:57 <daef> i think the GOL is 93
20:27:17 <AnMaster> daef, it is 93 that also works just fine in a 98 interpreter
20:27:49 <Deewiant> Modulo minor inconsistencies
20:28:12 <daef> :)
20:28:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the life one? no?
20:28:38 <AnMaster> it runs perfect iirc
20:28:56 <AnMaster> of course it runs so fast so you can't really follow it in cfunge
20:29:01 <Deewiant> Oh, we were talking about a specific program; my bad
20:29:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep
20:29:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in ccbi I get about 10 FPS or so
20:29:42 <AnMaster> in cfunge it is just a blur
20:29:48 <Deewiant> How do you count those FPS :-P
20:29:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, updates of screen per second
20:30:11 <Deewiant> Yes, that is the definition of FPS
20:30:18 <Deewiant> How do you count it, with a stopwatch?
20:30:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sleep && kill on the same line as starting ccbi
20:31:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then counting how many it drew
20:31:09 <Deewiant> Heh
20:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, counting it under my breath give roughly the same result
20:31:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indicating it was a reasonable approx
20:31:27 <Deewiant> How many FPS for cfunge, then?
20:31:28 <AnMaster> yes, ccbi is that snow
20:31:36 <Deewiant> Yes, I know CCBI 1 is slow
20:31:39 <Deewiant> Not snow, though
20:31:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, haven't yet tested the sleep and kill method on it
20:32:31 <AnMaster> hm wtf, cfunge ignored that signal
20:32:31 <fizzie> I think I "benchmarked" with "game of life for K seconds, output redirected to file, measure size of generated output files".
20:32:35 <AnMaster> not supposed to happen
20:32:54 <Deewiant> What are you killing it with, SIGXCPU? :-P
20:32:54 <daef> so - starting a movie
20:32:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, SIGINT
20:33:03 <AnMaster> but ctrl-c works
20:33:07 <AnMaster> which means this makes no sense
20:33:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what is SIGXCPU now again?
20:33:34 <Deewiant> eXceeded CPU
20:33:36 <Deewiant> (time)
20:33:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: eXtreme CPU.
20:34:11 <Deewiant> Yes, that; sorry, my mistake.
20:34:16 <fizzie> For eXtreme programs.
20:34:25 <fizzie> Written using eXtreme Programming techniques.,
20:34:26 <Deewiant> eXtreme Funge-98
20:35:01 <fizzie> XFunge is not a bad name, though people might expect an X Window System GUI in it.
20:36:01 <fizzie> I think I had "XCPU" as the error message that AI tournament system bot-runner returns when the computing time given for a player is exceeded; quite logical, since it gets a SIGXCPU signal.
20:36:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually, ccbi seems slower now... 59 frames for 10 seconds.
20:36:41 <olsner> ooh, "XFunge"? there's a funge with an X gui?
20:36:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it was due to a trivial typo in the command
20:37:01 <AnMaster> olsner, I don't implement that fingerprint
20:37:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and 758 frames from cfunge for the same time
20:37:47 <AnMaster> that is grepping for those ..................... lines GOL uses to separate the drawings with
20:37:51 <AnMaster> then doing wc -l
20:38:03 <AnMaster> (yes I use grep -F)
20:38:19 <Deewiant> I use fgrep but that's just me
20:38:22 <AnMaster> 92K ccbi.out
20:38:22 <AnMaster> 1,2M cfunge.out
20:38:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, last I looked fgrep on linux systems were either a symlink or a two-line wrapper script for grep
20:39:02 <AnMaster> (#!/bin/sh\ngrep -F "$@")
20:39:08 <AnMaster> exec grep ... even
20:39:32 <Deewiant> /bin/fgrep: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
20:39:35 <Deewiant> And not a symlink
20:39:41 <AnMaster> actually using du -bsh would be more fair:
20:39:43 <AnMaster> 90K ccbi.out
20:39:43 <AnMaster> 1,2M cfunge.out
20:39:51 <AnMaster> ccbi managed even less ;P
20:40:01 <Deewiant> Yeah, take off the -h and watch them both change :-P
20:40:13 <AnMaster> 91959 ccbi.out
20:40:13 <AnMaster> 1163264 cfunge.out
20:40:14 <AnMaster> yep
20:40:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but without -b it will be rounded to whole blocks on disk
20:40:31 <AnMaster> or something like that
20:41:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, let me re-run it with -b to cfunge
20:41:03 <AnMaster> :P
20:41:15 <AnMaster> hm strange
20:41:16 <AnMaster> oh wait
20:41:28 <AnMaster> redirecting to file already made it fully buffered
20:41:33 <AnMaster> of course -b won't help then
20:42:27 <AnMaster> (well 769 frames with -b. but 758 vs. 769 from a single run of each isn't statistical significiant)
20:42:46 <AnMaster> (especially as the cpu is running on dynamic speed and it's a dual core system and what not)
20:42:48 <fizzie> GNU grep has a separate fgrep executable, though it's compiled from a two-line .c file:
20:42:49 <fizzie> #define FGREP_PROGRAM
20:42:49 <fizzie> #include "grep.c"
20:42:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
20:43:01 <fizzie> I guess they're hoping for better optimizations there.
20:43:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD
20:43:48 <fizzie> I guess you could benchmark (with a large enough file to get a reasonable "asymptotic" speed) "fgrep" and "grep -F" to see if it made a difference.
20:44:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I don't have jitfunge handy so can't test it
20:44:04 <AnMaster> against there
20:44:07 <AnMaster> these*
20:44:16 <AnMaster> and I hope it won't be as dead as gl-funge!
20:44:52 <Deewiant> I thought it already was :-P
20:45:28 <AnMaster> :(
20:45:32 <fizzie> It's not quite as dead; I actually got it a lot cleaner architecturally some time ago -- it's a lot easier to port now, for example -- but it's also broken at the moment; doesn't even run life correctly.
20:46:09 <AnMaster> anyway, SIGINT won't work for efunge, that will give me a "continue/start shell/start debugger/some/more/options/I/forgot" prompt
20:48:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge produces output faster it seems when watching it, but it has a longer load time
20:48:48 -!- Oranjer has joined.
20:48:51 <AnMaster> I get about 54 frames in 10 seconds from it
20:48:55 <AnMaster> just below ccbi
20:49:09 <AnMaster> lets try longer intervals
20:50:14 <AnMaster> ah found it, seems related to using -KILL instead of -INT
20:50:21 <AnMaster> meaning it couldn't flush the buffer before exiting
20:50:42 <AnMaster> I get 98 (efunge) vs. 103 (ccbi) for 20 seconds
20:50:58 <Sgeo> RestrainedLife is no more. Long Live RestrainedLove!
20:50:59 <AnMaster> also erlang seems to always use unbuffered for stdout or something
20:52:24 <AnMaster> 1565 from cfunge for 20 seconds
20:52:26 <Deewiant> RC/Funge-98 appears to get a decent in-between result
20:52:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can try it in a bit. It is hard to compare different cpus
20:52:53 <Deewiant> No idea if I've compiled it with optimizations or anything though...
20:53:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume your ccbi binary is compiled with full optimisations?
20:53:13 <AnMaster> I used your official binary you see
20:53:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course I ran them all myself
20:53:21 <AnMaster> and cfunge with full optimisation
20:53:29 <AnMaster> and efunge with hipe at o3
20:53:31 <Deewiant> Full optimizations but it is upx-compressed which gives it a constant slowdown at start
20:53:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine, but it still beats erlang runtime
20:55:35 <Deewiant> Yeah, you might get a frame or two more if you feel like un-UPXing it, but nothing significant
20:55:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have upx installed
20:55:57 <Deewiant> Easy enough to install if you feel that much like it
20:56:13 <AnMaster> nah, isn't it different algorithm in closed and open versions?
20:56:35 <Deewiant> No clue? I just use arch linux's package of it
20:56:36 <AnMaster> I don't know which you used but I know which this distro would ship (open only)
20:56:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on ubuntu laptop atm
20:56:51 <AnMaster> and my arch linux desktop is much slower
20:56:54 <Deewiant> And it doesn't really matter, either it can decompress it or not :-P
20:57:22 <AnMaster> sempron 3300+ at 2 GHz vs. core 2 duo at 2.66GHz
20:57:24 <AnMaster> no match
20:57:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, did you build your cfunge optimised and with 32-bit cells?
20:58:02 <Deewiant> No clue
20:58:58 <AnMaster> now running it again for cfunge with better optimised build
20:59:05 <AnMaster> (inexact bounds)
20:59:12 <AnMaster> and no t support
20:59:30 <Deewiant> In other words, a noncompliant build ;-)
20:59:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with that build I now get 2097 frames from cfunge for 20 seconds
20:59:51 <AnMaster> that is more than 100 FPS!
21:00:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine, rebuilding with exact bounds
21:00:23 <Deewiant> Now implement the same algorithm for Conway's game of life in C and smile at your 10000 FPS ;-)
21:00:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, har
21:00:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now just use hashlife
21:00:50 <AnMaster> and watch it grow way way higher
21:00:51 <Deewiant> Yep
21:01:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with no t support but with exact bounds I get 1934 frames for 20 seconds
21:01:25 <Deewiant> Hmm, pretty big difference
21:01:32 <Deewiant> Oh right, it p's all over the place
21:01:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, (t,exact):1565 (-t,exact):1934 (-t,-exact):2097
21:03:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still it looks like not having to have the logic to switch ip and what not matters about 2.3 times as much
21:03:51 <AnMaster> ... as exact bounds
21:04:00 <Deewiant> Quite
21:04:52 <AnMaster> I wonder what cpressy would say on the exact bounds issue
21:05:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I somehow doubt that fbbi would pass mycoedge+fixed
21:05:14 <Deewiant> heheh
21:05:24 <Deewiant> Does efunge?
21:05:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it does.
21:05:49 <Deewiant> Okay, so then I know of three interpreters that do :-P
21:06:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one lifthrasiir (?) wrote passed too iirc
21:06:12 <Deewiant> Which one?
21:06:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, forgot it's name
21:06:18 <Deewiant> pyfunge?
21:06:22 <AnMaster> maybe
21:06:33 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it doesn't implement that... but maybe I'm wrong
21:06:37 <Deewiant> Haven't tested them properly after all
21:06:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course the exact bounds is somewhat... fudged... in the case of multiple ATHR threads
21:07:20 <AnMaster> it it is however guaranteed to have been the exact bounds *at some point* during execution, probably a recent point at that.
21:07:29 <Deewiant> :-D
21:07:30 <AnMaster> and it will be no less than that the current thread wrote
21:07:38 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:07:46 <Deewiant> Always return (0,0) - (0,0): "sure it was valid before the program was loaded"
21:07:48 <AnMaster> it is just that updates from *other* threads might take some time to reach
21:07:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, har
21:08:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I need this for wraparound too
21:08:05 <AnMaster> it was one hard problem to solve at that
21:08:21 <Deewiant> Did you do it majorly differently from cfunge, then?
21:08:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes of course it was
21:08:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, plus it differs in trunk and supervisor-tree branches quite widely
21:09:07 <fizzie> Hey, they're selling our apartment. (Or, to be more exact, another apartment in the same group-of-buildings, with exactly identical size and layout.)
21:09:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, who are "they"?
21:09:22 <Deewiant> In other words, they're not selling your argument.
21:09:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed
21:09:27 <Deewiant> Nor apartment.
21:09:32 <AnMaster> or that
21:09:33 <Deewiant> How'd I manage that, one wonders.
21:09:35 <fizzie> Presumably whoever lives here.
21:09:39 <fizzie> I mean, there.
21:09:41 <fizzie> (Gah.)
21:09:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor augment
21:10:02 <AnMaster> somehow I read "argument" as "augment" first
21:10:12 <Deewiant> Great success by all parties involved
21:10:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which made me even more confused when I found it was "argument"
21:10:39 <AnMaster> :P
21:17:06 <fizzie> That was one conversation-killing exchange.
21:31:47 <pikhq> Hmm. I have discovered an issue with Esotope-BFC.
21:31:59 <pikhq> It doesn't handle wrapping correctly.
21:38:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, wrapping?
21:38:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in 255 -> 0?
21:38:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, then rest assured that I'm 99% sure in-between does :P
21:39:19 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:39:26 <impomatic> Hi :-)
21:40:08 <Oranjer> hello
21:41:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Link to in-between?
21:42:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, site is probably down. Due to no longer having that server
21:42:26 <AnMaster> or domain
21:42:32 <AnMaster> could push it to launchpad
21:42:38 <AnMaster> (in a bit)
21:42:41 <AnMaster> (a bit busy now)
21:42:46 <pikhq> Mmm.
21:47:10 <impomatic> I've been trying to take a 3d anaglyph. Anyone have experience making them? Here's my first try http://patchworkpixels.co.uk/3d_soft_toys.htm
21:47:32 <scarf> anaglyph?
21:48:55 <MissPiggy> doesn't work impomatic
21:49:30 * MissPiggy wondrs how much geek-cred I get for having 3 different 3D glasses next to me at all times..
21:49:39 <impomatic> MissPiggy: What doesn't work, the link or the anaglyph?
21:49:44 <MissPiggy> it doesn't look 3D
21:50:49 <impomatic> I think I know what the problem is. There wasn't much depth to the scene and I used the flash.
21:51:14 <MissPiggy> I don't think flash should be any problem
21:51:45 <AnMaster> * MissPiggy wondrs how much geek-cred I get for having 3 different 3D glasses next to me at all times.. <-- 0.12 nethack accessions only
21:51:48 <impomatic> I took the shots at 65mm apart (same as my eyes). I'll make it further next time. The flash is a problem because the shadow is in two different places.
21:51:58 <MissPiggy> hehe
21:52:02 <uorygl> 3D shadows!
21:52:55 <AnMaster> impomatic, use a tripod and some bg light.
21:53:01 <AnMaster> impomatic, and no flash
21:53:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:53:31 <AnMaster> impomatic, also what software did you use for it?
21:53:42 <impomatic> AnMaster: thanks I'll try that. I used Gimp
21:53:47 <AnMaster> impomatic, huh
21:54:04 <AnMaster> impomatic, oh and create a panorama with hugin while you are at it
21:54:17 <AnMaster> use a panorama head to avoid parallax of course
21:54:28 <AnMaster> (I wish I had such a head for my tripod)
21:54:37 <AnMaster> (I only have a ball head :/)
21:55:17 <uorygl> What's a panorama head?
21:55:21 <impomatic> Hmmm... what's a panorama head? I assume it slides from side to side?
21:55:58 <impomatic> I used a mini tripod with positions marked out on the table.
21:56:40 <impomatic> I converged the shots slightly to at a point on the wall. Maybe they shouldn't converged on the foreground?
21:57:17 <AnMaster> "This section uses PNG images heavily. Typically, most browsers that cannot display PNG images are often old enough to have more than adequate built-in Gopher support and do not require Overbite software. For more details, please see the information on the Floodgap Public Gopher Proxy."
21:57:18 <AnMaster> hehe
21:57:25 <AnMaster> (from http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/)
21:57:36 <pikhq> Mmm, gopher.
21:57:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, the text was funny though
21:57:49 <AnMaster> the proper version is at gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite/
21:58:04 <AnMaster> also "heavily" = 3 images
21:58:06 <AnMaster> I think
21:58:15 <AnMaster> oh 4
21:58:15 <scarf> someone should show that to zzo38
21:58:18 <scarf> unless he knows it already
21:58:29 <AnMaster> scarf, I assume he knows overbite
21:58:36 <AnMaster> but it is unlikely he will use it
21:58:36 <scarf> so do I
21:58:49 * pikhq seems to recall zzo38 being responsible for Gopher still being in Gecko for some reason. :P
21:58:49 <AnMaster> he use his own browser doesn't it? Based on xulrunner
21:58:58 <scarf> pikhq: wait, what?
21:59:01 <AnMaster> what?
21:59:05 <AnMaster> I commented upon that bug too
21:59:10 <AnMaster> so no
21:59:16 <pikhq> *shrug*
21:59:30 <pikhq> All I know is that I'm looking at a Gopher page in modern Gecko.
22:00:07 <scarf> so am I
22:00:34 <AnMaster> I use lynx though
22:00:40 <AnMaster> it is better for gopher
22:00:49 <AnMaster> (in general)
22:01:05 <AnMaster> overbite probably helps firefox become as good
22:01:50 <pikhq> What's poor about it?
22:02:07 <fizzie> A panorama head is just a tunable metallic construction that makes it possible for you to position a camera on a tripod so that when you rotate it, it turns around the no-parallax point of the lens, therefore making it a lot easier to stitch images together. (I don't see the question answered anywhere.)
22:02:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, did someone ask it?
22:02:46 <AnMaster> oh I missed the question
22:02:49 <AnMaster> impomatic, ^
22:02:51 <AnMaster> sorry
22:04:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:04:38 <impomatic> Thanks, I'll take a look on eBay
22:05:58 <AnMaster> impomatic, well, that is for panoramas only
22:06:03 <AnMaster> impomatic, not needed for 3D images at all
22:06:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:06:22 <AnMaster> impomatic, plus it needs to fit your tripod of course
22:06:35 <AnMaster> not sure if the mounting is standard or not
22:07:37 <impomatic> Wikipedia has some decent Anaglyphs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_image
22:07:56 <AnMaster> impomatic, I don't have 3D glasses :(
22:14:25 -!- adu has joined.
22:22:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
22:23:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:23:44 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:36:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:42:01 <oerjan> 12:20:48 <daef> s/belonge/befunge/g
22:42:34 <oerjan> i hear the name befunge started as a similar typo. although i don't know what it was a typo of.
22:42:54 <scarf> "before", apparently
22:43:40 <oerjan> that typo makes no sense on qwerty, at least...
22:44:12 <Deewiant> It's kind of like how some people can typo "argument" for "apartment"
22:44:22 <oerjan> hm
22:44:52 <oerjan> so closer to the chair, then
22:45:11 <Deewiant> Probably
22:46:05 <oerjan> dammit i've got into this habit of chewing my tongue :(
22:47:24 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:51:32 <fizzie> oerjan: My Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms says tongue means "an enemy prisoner captured for interrogation"; strange thing to chew.
22:52:14 <oerjan> yummy
22:52:45 <fizzie> On the other hand, 'chew' is listed as "to practice fellatio", so...
22:54:01 <oerjan> the prisoner better hope the interrogators are not using that dictionary
22:54:02 <Asztal> I chewed a pack of paperclips :(
22:54:12 <Asztal> now I've run out
22:54:18 <adu> ?!?
22:54:36 <oerjan> paperclip candy?
22:54:54 <adu> Project Paperclip
22:54:59 <Asztal> I also chewed up a few of the PCI slot guards from my PC case...
22:55:14 <adu> Asztal: are you a bot?
22:55:19 <fizzie> Asztal: Have you polymorphed to a xorn, perhaps?
22:56:27 <adu> I can understand "I chewed a paperclip" perhaps by accident, but "I accidentally chewed an entire box of paperclips" doesn't compute
22:56:47 <Asztal> not by accident
22:56:52 <Asztal> they're just very more-ish :)
22:58:01 <fizzie> fungot: You're a bot; would you eat paperclips?
22:58:02 <fungot> fizzie: they say that gremlins can make a bomb from the tombs, and therefore well suited for its electrical organ which enables it to be amazingly sturdy. he excelled them even in lithe economy of motion. they are quite difficult to kill.
23:01:10 -!- cal has joined.
23:01:12 -!- cal has quit (Client Quit).
23:01:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:05:28 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:08:00 <Asztal> ^style
23:08:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:09:09 <fizzie> I rather like the nethack style. It's not very good at making sense, but it's occasionally funny.
23:09:24 <fizzie> "daedalus built the labyrinth, famous throughout the world a grid bug was, you need a key in order to open it; it was never supposed to seek nourishment, or one grown from a cutting, not in mordor only."
23:16:29 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]).
23:35:55 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:56:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:59:19 -!- gm|lap has joined.
23:59:20 -!- gm|lap has quit (Changing host).
23:59:20 -!- gm|lap has joined.
←2010-02-26 2010-02-27 2010-02-28→ ↑2010 ↑all